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85–793 2003

S. HRG. 107–894

EXECUTIVE BRANCH NOMINATIONS

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

UNITED STATES SENATE

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

MARCH 5, 2002

Serial No. J–107–64

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

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(II)

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont, Chairman 

EDWARD M. KENNEDY, Massachusetts 

JOSEPH R. BIDEN, JR., Delaware 

HERBERT KOHL, Wisconsin 

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California 

RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, Wisconsin 

CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York 

RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois 

MARIA CANTWELL, Washington 

JOHN EDWARDS, North Carolina 

ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah 

STROM THURMOND, South Carolina 

CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa 

ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania 

JON KYL, Arizona 

MIKE DEWINE, Ohio 

JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama 

SAM BROWNBACK, Kansas 

MITCH MCCONNELL, Kentucky 

BRUCE A. COHEN, Majority Chief Counsel and Staff Director 

SHARON PROST, Minority Chief Counsel 

MAKAN DELRAHIM, Minority Staff Director 

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C O N T E N T S 

STATEMENTS OF COMMITTEE MEMBERS 

Page

Biden, Hon. Joseph R., Jr., a U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware ............. 1

Grassley, Hon. Charles E., a U.S. Senator from the State of Iowa ..................... 180

Hatch, Hon. Orrin G., a U.S. Senator from the State of Utah ............................ 3

Leahy, Hon. Patrick J., a U.S. Senator from the State of Vermont .................... 186

PRESENTERS 

Allen, Hon. George, a U.S. Senator from the State of Virginia presenting 

Barry D. Crane, Nominee to be Deputy Director of Supply Reduction, 

Office of National Drug Control Policy and J. Robert Flores, Nominee 

to be Administrator, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, 

Department of Justice ......................................................................................... 12

Bennett, Hon. Robert, a U.S. Senator from the State of Utah presenting 

Scott Burns, Nominee to be Deputy Director for State and Local Affairs, 

Office of National Drug Control Policy ............................................................... 11

Levin, Hon. Carl, a U.S. Senator from the State of Michigan presenting 

Mary Ann Solberg, Nominee to be Deputy Director, Office of National 

Drug Control Policy ............................................................................................. 6

Levin, Hon. Sander, a Representative in Congress from the State of Michigan 

presenting Mary Ann Solberg, Nominee to be Deputy Director, Office of 

National Drug Control Policy .............................................................................. 8

Stabenow, Hon. Debbie, a U.S. Senator from the State of Michigan presenting 

Mary Ann Solberg, Nominee to be Deputy Director, Office of National 

Drug Control Policy ............................................................................................. 7

Warner, Hon. John, a U.S. Senator from the State of Virginia presenting 

Barry D. Crane, Nominee to be Deputy Director of Supply Reduction, 

Office of National Drug Control Policy and J. Robert Flores, Nominee 

to be Administrator, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, 

Department of Justice ......................................................................................... 14

STATEMENTS OF THE NOMINEES 

Burns, Scott, Nominee to be Deputy Director for State and Local Affairs, 

Office of National Drug Control Policy ............................................................... 52

Questionnaire .................................................................................................... 55

Crane, Barry D., Nominee to be Deputy Director of Supply Reduction, Office 

of National Drug Control Policy .......................................................................... 37

Questionnaire .................................................................................................... 40

Flores, J. Robert, Nominee to be Administrator, Office of Juvenile Justice 

and Delinquency Prevention, Department of Justice ........................................ 75

Questionnaire .................................................................................................... 80

Solberg, Mary Ann, Nominee to be Deputy Director, Office of National Drug 

Control Policy ....................................................................................................... 19

Questionnaire .................................................................................................... 22

WITNESS 

Flowers, Robert L., Commissioner of Public Safety, Salt Lake City, Utah ........ 16

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 

Responses of Barry Crane to questions submitted by Senator Grassley ............ 137

Responses of Barry Crane to questions submitted by Senator Kennedy ............ 154

Page

IV

Responses of Scott Burns to questions submitted by Senator Durbin ................ 126

Responses of Scott Burns to questions submitted by Senator Grassley ............. 128

Responses of Mary Ann Solberg to questions submitted by Senator Grassley .. 161

SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD 

Administrative Office of the United States Courts, Washington, D.C., letter 

and attachments ................................................................................................... 174

Speaker’s Task Force for a Drug Free America, Washington, D.C., letter ......... 188

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NOMINATION OF MARY ANN SOLBERG, OF 

MICHIGAN, NOMINEE TO BE DEPUTY DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL POLICY; BARRY D. CRANE, OF VIRGINIA, NOMINEE TO BE DEPUTY DIRECTOR 

OF SUPPLY REDUCTION, OFFICE OF NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL POLICY; SCOTT 

BURNS, OF UTAH, NOMINEE TO BE DEPUTY 

DIRECTOR FOR STATE AND LOCAL AFFAIRS, OFFICE OF NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL POLICY; AND J. ROBERT FLORES, OF 

VIRGINIA, NOMINEE TO BE ADMINISTRATOR, OFFICE OF JUVENILE JUSTICE 

AND DELINQUENCY PREVENTION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 

TUESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002

U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, Washington, DC. 

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:06 a.m., in room 

SD–226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joseph R. Biden presiding. 

Present: Senators Biden, Hatch, and Grassley. 

STATEMENT OF HON. JOSEPH R. BIDEN, JR., A U.S. SENATOR 

FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE 

Senator BIDEN. The hearing will please come to order. 

I have looked forward to this hearing for some time, in large part 

because I wanted in front of my colleagues to assume the chairmanship of this committee for a moment with Senator Hatch as the 

ranking member to remind me of the good old days. 

The real reason we are here today is to fill some vacancies that 

are very, very important, and we have an illustrious panel to introduce our nominees. As is the usual procedure, we move based on 

seniority, but before we do let me suggest that of our three nominees, both Barry Crane and John Flores are going to be introduced 

or referenced by Senator Warner. Senator Bennett will speak to 

Mr. Burns. Senator Allen will speak to Messrs. Crane and Burns, 

and Senator Levin and Senator Stabenow and Congressman Levin 

2

will speak to Ms. Solberg. We are going to proceed after opening 

statements in the order of seniority of those that are here. 

This morning, the Judiciary Committee is going to consider the 

four nominations, three for deputy director positions at the Office 

of National Drug Control Policy and one for Administrator of the 

Department of Justice’s Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency 

Prevention. 

As chairman of the Subcommittee on Crime and Drugs, I am 

pleased to be able to chair this hearing today. Rather than go 

through the impressive credentials of the nominees, I will submit 

my statement for the record and forgo that, since they are obviously going to be referenced by our distinguished introducers here. 

[The prepared statement of Senator Biden follows:]

STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOSEPH R. BIDEN, JR. 

This morning the Judiciary Committee will consider four nominations, three for 

Deputy Director positions at the Office of National Drug Control Policy and one to 

be the Administrator of the Department of Justice’s Office of Juvenile Justice and 

Delinquency Prevention. As the Chairman of the Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime 

and Drugs, I am pleased to be chairing this hearing today because I will be working 

closely with all of our nominees. 

Our first nominee is John Robert Flores, who I understand goes by Bob. Bob Flores was nominated by the President last year to be the Administrator of the Office 

of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention. The mission of the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention is to provide national leadership, coordination, and resources to prevent and respond to juvenile delinquency and victimization. This mission is as critical today as it was almost 30 years ago when the Office 

was first created. 

Juvenile crime has been down in recent years—the juvenile arrest rate for violent 

crime in 1999 was 36% below its peak in 1994—but it is still too high. The most 

recent data indicates to us that juveniles are involved in 33 percent of all burglary 

arrests, 24 percent of all weapons arrests, and 13 percent of all drug abuse violation 

arrests. 

We need to do better. We need to give our young people smart crime prevention 

programs, and we need to tell those kids who won’t change their ways that there 

is a consequence attached to misbehavior. 

I look forward to working with the Administration to accomplish these goals. We 

are once again attempting to reauthorize the Juvenile Justice Act—Its authority expired in 1996 and it’s time to get that Act extended. I hope the Administration can 

provide us with their thoughts on where to take juvenile justice in the coming years. 

And that is why I welcome the Administration’s nominee to head the juvenile justice 

office here this morning. 

Bob Flores was born in Puerto Rico and currently resides in Virginia. He is a 

graduate of Boston University and Boston University School of Law. He is a prosecutor by training. Bob spent five years as an Assistant District Attorney in the 

Manhattan District Attorney’s Office. From 1989 to 1997, he worked at the Department of Justice in the Child Exploitation and Obscenity Section of the Criminal Division. At Justice, Bob developed policies to investigate and prosecute child pornography and sexual abuse. He left Justice to be the Vice President and Senior Counsel 

for the National Law Center for Children and Families. 

Next, we have Mary Ann Solberg who was nominated by the President to be the 

Deputy Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy.

I am pleased that the President has picked someone with such a strong prevention background to be second in command at the Drug Czar’s office. 

Mrs. Solberg has worked tirelessly for the past decade in her own community to 

reduce drug use, so she knows first hand how to get results. She is currently the 

Executive Director of both the Troy Michigan Community Coalition for the Prevention of Drug and Alcohol Abuse and the Coalition of Healthy Communities, two nonprofit organizations made up of businesses, government, and community leaders 

that seek to reduce substance use and abuse by teenagers. She has also been very 

involved in the Community Anti-Drug Coalitions of America and was one of eleven 

national leaders appointed by President Clinton in 1998 to the Advisory Committee 

for the Drug Free Communities Program. 

3

Mrs. Solberg also has a great deal of experience working closely with law enforcement over the years. She has helped to establish a drug court in Troy Michigan, 

trained local prosecutors, and worked hand in hand with the local police. 

Prior to her involvement with substance abuse prevention, Mrs. Solberg worked 

as a teacher, a job at which I know she excelled because she was named ‘‘Teacher 

of the Year.’’

Her nomination has been endorsed by a wide range of groups including the Partnership for a Drug Free America, the Community Anti-Drug Coalitions of America, 

the Legal Action Center, and the National Association for Children of Alcoholics. I 

welcome her here today. 

Next, we have Dr. Barry Crane, who has been nominated to be the Deputy Director for Supply Reduction, meaning that he will be responsible for advising the Drug 

Czar on policies and programs to reduce the supply of drugs. 

Barry Crane graduated from the U.S. Air Force Academy, earned a PhD in Physics from the University of Arizona, and was a National Security Fellow at Harvard’s 

Kennedy School of Government. 

He served in the Air Force for 24 years, retiring in 1991 at the rank of Colonel. 

He has also taught physics and engineering at Chapman College in New Mexico and 

the George Washington University. 

Dr. Crane has spent the past decade as the Project Leader for Counterdrug Analysis at the Institute for Defense Analysis. In this capacity he has examined the effectiveness of operations to interdict cocaine and has done research and evaluations 

for the United States Interdiction Coordinator, the Assistant Secretary of Defense 

for Special Operations and Low Intensity Conflict and the United States Coast 

Guard. He has also worked closely with the State Department, the Justice Department, the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Customs Service, and the United 

Nations Drug Control Program. 

Finally, we have Scott Burns, the nominee to be the Director of the Bureau of 

State and Local Affairs, meaning that he will work with state and local government 

agencies and public interest groups to develop and implement the National Drug 

Control Strategy. He will work closely with Federal law enforcement and will oversee the High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area program. 

Scott Burns is no stranger to law enforcement. He has served as the County Attorney in Iron County, Utah since 1986. He has prosecuted over 100 felony jury 

trials, including several high profile rape, sexual abuse of children, capital murder 

and narcotics distribution prosecutions. 

He has also served on several national and state boards including the White 

House Commission on Illegal Narcotics and Addiction, the Utah Police Academy 

Board of Trustees, the Utah Sentencing Commission, the Utah Chiefs of Police Association, and as Chairman of the Southern Utah Law Enforcement Agencies Board 

of Directors. 

Prior to becoming County Attorney he was a partner with Burns & Burns Attorneys at Law. He also has been an adjunct professor at Southern Utah University, 

teaching various criminal justice and law courses from 1992 to 1998. 

Scott Burns is a graduate of Southern Utah University where he was the starting 

quarterback for four years. He must have been good, because he was inducted into 

the University’s Hall of Fame in 1996. He studied law at California Western School 

of Law where he served as Student Bar Association President. 

I welcome all of our nominees here this morning and I look forward to hearing 

from each of them.

Senator BIDEN. With that, why don’t I turn to Senator Hatch for 

any statement he may have, and then we will go to the introducers. 

STATEMENT OF HON. ORRIN G. HATCH, A U.S. SENATOR FROM 

THE STATE OF UTAH 

Senator HATCH. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate 

your chairing these hearings. This is a very important hearing for 

four critical executive branch nominees. I want to joint Senator 

Biden in welcoming all of our colleagues here today and welcoming 

all of our nominees to today’s hearing. 

The Justice Department nominee, Mr. John Robert Flores, has 

been selected to be Administrator of the Office of Juvenile Justice 

and Delinquency Prevention, an arm of the Department of Justice 

4

whose mission is to prevent and respond to our youth delinquency 

problems. 

We are also fortunate to have today the three nominees to be 

deputy directors of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, ONDCP. In selecting Scott Burns, a Utahn whom I personally know is up to the task to handle State and local affairs, Dr. 

Barry Crane to head the Office of Supply Reduction, and Mary Ann 

Solberg to be deputy czar, the President has assembled an excellent 

team of dedicated and knowledgeable professionals. 

I commend President Bush for his willingness to confront the 

issue of drug use, especially among our youth, and ensure him that 

I will support him, Director Walters, and their fine team before us 

today in all of their efforts. 

Now, I could go on and on, too, but we do have our colleagues 

here to speak to each and every one of these. I just want to say 

that having watched Scott Burns through the years, I don’t know 

that I have ever met a better law enforcement official or prosecutor 

than Scott. He is just an honest, decent, wonderful man. 

His wife is an excellent lawyer herself, and so Washington is 

going to get two very good lawyers to work here. I just couldn’t 

speak more highly of any person than I can of the two of them. 

They have their beautiful young daughter here today and I am 

proud of her as well. 

I will just leave it at that. There are so many nice things I would 

like to say about Scott, but I will count on my distinguished colleague, Senator Bennett, to carry that load. 

Thanks, Mr. Chairman. 

[The prepared statement of Senator Hatch follows:]

STATEMENT OF SENATOR ORRIN G. HATCH

Mr. Chairman, first I want to thank you for taking the time to chair this hearing 

today for four critical executive branch nominees. I want to join Senator Biden in 

welcoming all of our nominees to today’s hearing. Our sole Justice Department 

nominee, Mr. John Robert Flores, has been selected to be Administrator of the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, an arm of the Department of 

Justice whose mission is to prevent and respond to our youth’s delinquency problems. We are also fortunate to have today the three nominees to be Deputy Directors of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, ONDCP. In selecting 

Scott Burns—a Utahn, who I personally know is up to the task—to handle State 

and Local Affairs, Dr. Barry Crane to head the Office of Supply Reduction, and 

Mary Ann Solberg to be the Deputy Czar, the President has assembled an excellent 

team of dedicated and knowledgeable professionals. I commend President Bush for 

his willingness to confront the issue of drug use, especially among our youth, and 

ensure him that I will support him, Director Walters, and their fine team before 

us today in their efforts. 

Mary Ann Solberg has over 25 years of community service under her belt, and 

we should be grateful that she has agreed to accept the President’s call to serve as 

Deputy Czar. She chairs the Advisory Commission on Drug-Free Communities, 

serves in an advisory capacity to the Center for Substance Abuse Prevention, and 

is a Board member of the Community Anti-Drug Coalitions of America. She has 

been recognized on numerous occasions for her dedicated work with families and 

communities to prevent youth drug use. She is supported by numerous treatment 

and prevention groups, including the Partnership for a Drug-Free America and the 

Community Anti-Drug Coalitions of America. I am confident she will continue her 

hard work in preventing youth drug use once confirmed. 

Dr. Barry Crane also has a long history of combating drug use. Dr. Crane has 

served as a Project Leader for Counterdrug Research at the Institute of Defense 

Analyses for the last ten years. He served in the United States Air Force for 24 

years where he piloted fighter jets and earned a distinguished combat record. He 

5

is eager to bring his knowledge and experience to ONDCP to help reduce the supply 

of illegal drugs coming into America. 

Scott Burns also has had extensive experience with combating the trafficking in 

and manufacturing of illegal drugs. As the Iron County Prosecutor in southern Utah 

for the past 12 years, he has worked closely with law enforcement and community 

groups to stem the rising use of Methamphetamine and other dangerous drugs. He 

started Utah’s first narcotics task force, the model of which has been repeatedly 

used to form other successful narcotics task forces around the state. Scott has proven that he can bring people together to work for a common cause, and I am confident he will make an excellent Deputy for State and Local Affairs. 

Our Justice Department nominee, John Robert Flores, will also play an important 

role in preventing our youth from going down the wrong path. The Office of Juvenile 

Justice coordinates federal and state programs, and provides grants and funding to 

localities and private organizations. Mr. Flores has been at the Department before. 

During his time at the Department of Justice, Mr. Flores helped develop and carry 

out two important enforcement programs: Operation Long Arm, which targeted 

American citizens importing child pornography from foreign sites, and Innocent Images, which addressed trafficking in child pornography on the Internet. He has prosecuted hundreds of criminal cases, including the first federal case involving the distribution of child pornography via computer, and written numerous amicus briefs 

in key obscenity and child pornography cases while serving as Senior Counsel for 

the National Law Center for Children and Families. We look forward to his views 

on how he will continue his work to protect children in his new position at the Department once confirmed. 

We all agree that if we are to win the war on drugs in America, we need a comprehensive policy aimed at reducing both the demand for and supply of drugs. I was 

not surprised that the President’s $19.2 billion anti-drug budget is supported by a 

comprehensive National Drug Control Strategy that sets clear and specific national 

goals for reducing drug use in America. The Strategy is based on three core principals: (1) Stopping drug use before it starts; (2) Healing America’s drug users; and 

(3) Disrupting the drug market. Prevention, treatment, and interdiction, the three 

integral components of an effective drug control strategy, will all play a pivotal role 

in realizing the President’s recently announced goals to reduce illegal drug use by 

10 percent over 2 years, and by 25 percent over 5 years. These goals apply both to 

drug use among young Americans between the ages of 12 and 17 and among adults.

I am confident that these goals can and will be achieved through the tenacious 

work of our dedicated law enforcement agencies, community coalitions, educators, 

biomedical researchers, clergy, and, most importantly, caring families. However, 

achieving such goals will be an uphill battle considering it will require reversing a 

decade long trend of dramatic rises in youth drug use. And, although overall drug 

use has appeared to level off over the past few years, it has done so at unacceptably 

high levels. Additionally, youth use of particular drugs has never stabilized. According to the most recent national surveys, youth drug use of so-called ‘‘club drugs’’ 

such as Ecstasy and GHB, has been steadily rising for some time. Since 1997, use 

of Ecstasy among 12th graders has increased dramatically by 130 percent. It is simply shocking that by the time of graduation from high school, 54 percent of our 

youth have used an illicit drug. We must act immediately to reverse these soaring 

numbers, and I look forward to hearing our panelists’s ideas on how we can bring 

down these numbers. 

I am excited about the team of determined and no-nonsense professionals this 

President has selected. His Drug Strategy is aggressive, but that is what we need 

and the youth of this country deserve. In this regard, I am very interested to hear 

from Ms. Solberg how she intends to use her vast experience with, and knowledge, 

of community coalitions and parents groups to implement the President’s Strategy 

and to improve prevention efforts across the country. 

Furthermore, I know that the President has proposed to disrupt the drug market 

at home and abroad. Domestically, attacking the economic basis of the drug trade 

involves the cooperative, combined efforts of federal, state, and local law enforcement. Internationally, we must continue to target the supply of illegal drugs in the 

source countries. I look forward to hearing specifically from Mr. Burns and Dr. 

Crane on what ideas they have to achieve this goal. 

Mr. Chairman, last year I introduced S. 304, the ‘‘Drug Abuse Education, Prevention, and Treatment Act of 2001,’’ a bipartisan bill, that I drafted with Senator 

Leahy, you, and Senators DeWine, Thurmond, and Feinstein. The legislation, as you 

well know, seeks to increase dramatically prevention and treatment efforts, and I 

remain confident that S. 304 will become law this session. I am eager to get our 

panelists’ views on this legislation to the extent they are familiar with it and to 

6

learn what additional measures they believe should be undertaken by Congress to 

assist in our efforts on curbing drug abuse. 

Mr. Chairman, Robert Flowers, Utah Commissioner of Public Safety, is here today 

to introduce and support Mr. Burns. As head of State law enforcement activity, 

Commissioner Flowers played an integral role in ensuring the security and success 

of the Salt Lake Winter Olympic games. Commissioner Flowers and his Deputy 

have come 2,500 miles to support Scott and I ask if you might allow him to introduce Scott along with the first panel. I am so proud of him. He was the key coordinator of the numerous federal, state, and local agencies involved in the Olympic’s 

security. Given the success of the games and the security provided, I, and the nation, owe Bob a much deserved thank you.

Senator BIDEN. Thank you very much. 

I know we don’t often do this this way, but, Senator Grassley, 

would you like to say anything. 

Senator GRASSLEY. I think I will pass. 

Senator BIDEN. Thank you. 

Well, why don’t we begin with the chairman of the Armed Services Committee, who is apparently conducting hearings as we 

speak and has to get back, and also is the most senior of the panelists. 

Would you like to begin, Senator Levin? 

PRESENTATION OF MARY ANN SOLBERG, NOMINEE TO BE 

DEPUTY DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL 

POLICY BY HON. CARL LEVIN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE 

STATE OF MICHIGAN 

Senator LEVIN. Mr. Chairman, thank you, and Senator Hatch 

and Senator Grassley. Thank you for convening the hearing. Seniority has many advantages. One of them is apparent here this 

morning that even though I came after the other witnesses here, 

you allow me to go first. 

Senator BIDEN. In other words, you get to turn the lights off at 

night. 

Senator LEVIN. I notice that Senator Warner, who is my ranking 

member, is back there minding store, so I really had better get 

back quickly. 

Senator BIDEN. I would very much like you to get back. [Laughter.] 

Senator LEVIN. I am sure he will be here or at least will want 

to submit a statement. 

I am here for Mary Ann Solberg. I just can’t think of anybody 

who would be more appropriately appointed to this position than 

Mary Ann Solberg. As Deputy Director of the Office of National 

Drug Control Policy, she will be putting to great use the hands-on 

experience that she has had in her hometown for many, many 

years. 

She has been the executive director of the Troy Community Coalition for the Prevention of Drug and Alcohol Abuse, in Troy, Michigan, which is a suburb of the city of Detroit. She has been the executive director for about ten years of that coalition. She has been 

also the executive director of the Coalition of Health Communities. 

In this position, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, 

she has managed a coalition of 140 organizations, institutions, and 

public officials. She has chaired a 200-member citywide advisory 

committee. She has managed almost $5 million in substance abuse 

prevention funds. 

7

Her hands-on experience has led her to start a drug court in her 

community. She regularly helps to train judges, police, and prosecutors about substance abuse. She has worked with the local prosecutor to address emerging substance abuse issues and to establish 

policy. 

She has been the recipient of many endorsements for this position, including by the National Association of Drug Court Professionals, Partnership for a Drug-Free America, Community AntiDrug Coalitions of America, the National Association for Children 

of Alcoholics, State Associations of Addiction Services, and many 

other organizations. She really is extraordinarily experienced for 

this particular position. 

My brother, Sandy, knows her even better than I do and he is 

here to add his words. All I can say is, as is almost always the 

case, he will be speaking the words of his younger brother—or at 

least the sentiments of his younger brother, not the words; the 

words are his own. 

Senator BIDEN. More eloquently, did you say? Did you say more 

eloquently? 

Senator LEVIN. Yes, probably more eloquently. 

Senator BIDEN. That is what I thought. 

Senator LEVIN. We always maintain that 1-percent safety valve 

because sometimes his words don’t exactly reflect mine, but I am 

sure that this morning he will be, as well as Senator Stabenow, 

who is here to present our nominee. 

I just want to thank this committee for holding these hearings 

again, and hope that she can be promptly recommended to the Senate so we can vote on her confirmation. 

Senator BIDEN. I have one question. Was that all designed to 

make the case that you are younger than your brother? 

Senator LEVIN. It was all designed to give him an introduction 

to the committee. 

Senator HATCH. Sander, he has been a heavy load to carry 

through the years, I am sure. 

Mr. LEVIN. I have no comment, Senator. 

Senator BIDEN. Let me ask my colleagues from Virginia and 

Utah, are your time constraints—are you tight, because for continuity maybe we could continue on Solberg here?

Mr. LEVIN. I would be glad to wait. 

Senator BIDEN. Well, I was going to go to Senator Stabenow next 

and then to you, Sander, and then we can move to the next nominees. 

PRESENTATION OF MARY ANN SOLBERG, NOMINEE TO BE 

DEPUTY DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL 

POLICY BY HON. DEBBIE STABENOW, A U.S. SENATOR FROM 

THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 

Senator STABENOW. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is my 

great pleasure to be here with Senator Levin and Congressman 

Levin, and I will not comment on the age of my colleagues or anything else related to my colleagues. 

Senator BIDEN. Other than to note you are younger than both of 

them. 

Senator STABENOW. Yes, that is right. 

8

I am extremely pleased to be here, and I thank you for giving 

me the opportunity to offer my very strong and enthusiastic support for the President’s nomination of Mary Ann Solberg as deputy 

director in charge of drug policy for the National Office of Drug 

Control Policy. I am very pleased and appreciate very much the 

President’s nomination. 

As Executive Director of the Troy Community Coalition for the 

Prevention of Alcohol and Drug Abuse, Mary Ann has been able to 

get real results, and I think that is what is so important about this 

nomination. This is someone who knows how to get results by mobilizing a broad community coalition in the war on drugs. 

The coalition’s 140 members include local schools and businesses, 

law enforcement, the courts, and agencies and service groups. 

Working together, this coalition has been able to change behavior 

and attitudes toward drugs and alcohol in both children and adults, 

and we know that that is no small task to be able to accomplish 

that. 

In certain targeted areas, drug and alcohol abuse has dropped by 

50 percent, with the added benefit that child abuse rates have also 

dropped. The war against drugs and alcohol abuse has my full support, as does this nomination. I know that the casualties of inaction 

are the health of our children and our families. 

The only thing that makes me sad about supporting this nomination is that Michigan will sorely miss her leadership, but we know 

that we will benefit by this nomination going to confirmation and 

the leadership of this wonderful woman that will take place in 

touching the lives of families around this Nation. We are very 

proud of her talents. We know that it is now our turn to share 

Mary Ann Solberg with the rest of the Nation, and I am extremely 

proud and pleased to be here to support this nomination. 

Thank you. 

Senator BIDEN. Thank you very much, Senator. 

Congressman Levin.

PRESENTATION OF MARY ANN SOLBERG, NOMINEE TO BE 

DEPUTY DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL 

POLICY BY HON. SANDER LEVIN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 

CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 

Representative LEVIN. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, and 

Senator Hatch and Senator Grassley. It has been my privilege as 

I have been in this institution to come to know all three of you and 

I cherish our relationship. That makes me especially pleased to be 

here today with colleagues from the Senate, one of whom I served 

with in the House, and others I know very well, including Senator 

Bennett’s sense of humor. 

I have known Mary Ann Solberg now for about nine years. I first 

came to know her when the district changed and I represented 

Troy and she was the Executive Director of the Troy Community 

coalition. It was the leading light in this effort in the State of 

Michigan, and I think beyond, and I saw her work across all kinds 

of lines. 

I saw her work with law enforcement officials, with the faithbased community, with parents, with students. I saw her essentially work with everybody, and as a result the experience in Troy 

9

spread. They formed the Coalition of Healthy Communities which 

encompassed other communities around the city of Troy, which is 

a little less than 100,000 people in suburban Detroit. 

Because of her activities more than anything else, I became deeply involved and came to work with Rob Portman on the Drug-Free 

Communities Act. So in substantial measure, Troy was one of the 

two or three models that sparked this Federal legislation that I 

think has been meaningful in this battle against the scourge of 

drugs. So she brings here a broad-based experience across all lines 

with drug courts, with law enforcement, with faith-based communities, with the business community, and with the education community. 

After the Act was put into place, the advisory committee was set 

up, and Mary Ann was appointed to it and later became its Chair. 

Through that and her other work on national committees, and she 

has been involved in several, she came to know this town, though 

never forgetting where she came from, and had a chance to work 

with people throughout the country. 

I would like to say to the three of you and to all the staff that 

is here from other members and to the other Senators, I was struck 

when I walked in the door by the number of people who were here 

from the groups that she has worked with. The Drug-Free Communities Advisory Committee I have come to know; I have served on 

it. I came in the door and I saw those faces, and the people who 

came here to support here believe in her capabilities. 

The head of CADCA and other representatives from CADCA with 

whom she has very much worked, and also the National Association of State Alcohol and Drug Directors and the Legal Action Center—their attendance here says so much, I think, about who she 

is and their feelings about her capabilities to serve in this capacity. 

So I have a written statement and I would ask that it be entered 

into the record. 

Senator BIDEN. Without objection, it will be. 

Representative LEVIN. This isn’t the time, because your colleagues need to go on, but I would be glad, if there are any questions, to answer them. I think that with the person appointed by 

the President as the new drug czar that Mary Ann will be a terrific 

team. I think it is a reflection of the commitment of the administration to make drug policies and programs work at all levels that 

they decided to appoint Mary Ann Solberg. 

So I could not recommend anybody more highly, and as I said to 

one of you earlier, I think as she performs you will be very proud 

of Mary Ann, as Troy is, as Michigan is, as the advisory committee 

is that is so well represented here, as CADCA is proud of her, so 

well represented, and the other national organizations she has 

worked with, including the First Lady of Ohio. 

Thier attendance here, I think, says so much about how capable 

she is and how she will bring to this function dedication, determination. She is hard-nosed, she is a tough administrator. In other 

words, she will be terrific, and I hope you will vote her out and she 

will be confirmed. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Levin follows:]

10

STATEMENT OF REPRESENTATIVE SANDER LEVIN

Mr. Chairman. Members of the Committee. I have had the privilege of working 

with Mary Ann Solberg for the last ten years. I am honored to be here before you 

on her behalf. 

Mary Ann Solberg has the commitment, credentials, and charisma to be an outstanding Deputy Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP). 

She is an accomplished activist on behalf of reducing the demand for drugs in our 

nation. I have seen first hand the work she has done in Troy, Michigan as the Executive Director for the Troy Community Coalition for the Prevention of Drug and Alcohol Abuse and I have seen her bring this experience to the national level. 

Consider, that in the last ten years I have known Mary Ann, she has developed 

and sustained one of the best anti-drug coalitions in the country. She has fostered 

the growth of numerous other community efforts in the surrounding communities; 

including, but not limited to forming and running the 17-community umbrella organization, Coalition of Healthy Communities. She provided the inspiration and the 

real life examples that led Rob Portman and myself to author the Drug Free Communities program, a federal grant program that Congress has recently extended for 

a second five years. 

She has brought this expertise to the national level through leadership positions 

with numerous boards and advisory committees. She was appointed to the Advisory 

Committee to Develop a National Prevention System for the National Center for 

Substance Abuse Prevention. She was appointed to the Advisory Committee of the 

National AD Council’s Community Anti-Drug Campaign. She was appointed to the 

Advisory Commission on Drug Free Communities and was subsequently elected to 

serve as co-chairperson. 

If you want to bring the best from the ‘‘field’’ to Washington, D.C., you are doing 

so by confirming Mary Ann Solberg’s nomination. Mary Ann will devote herself to 

making what ONDCP does every day meaningful to our local communities. 

Yet the person that I have come to know in Mary Ann Solberg has a set of skills 

that in many respects is even more important then the vitally important perspective 

she will bring to the position of Deputy Director of ONDCP. 

Mary Ann Solberg is also a skillful manager who will build consensus, demand 

accountability, and focus like a laser beam on results. The City of Troy, or for that 

matter southeast Michigan, are not easy areas in which to organize. Mary Ann has 

captured people’s attention, she has brought everybody to the strategic table, kept 

them involved in numerous activities, and together they have delivered results. I 

would hazard to guess that there is not a constituency group with which Mary Ann 

is unfamiliar. She has trained police, prosecutors and judges. She has partnered 

with them on numerous projects; including the establishment of a new drug court. 

She has generated active engagement by the business and faith communities. She 

has done this at home and she has trained numerous others to do the same nationally. 

I have seen Mary Ann in action in small group meetings, larger conferences and 

national meetings. She is a tremendous force; always generating countless ideas on 

how to further the cause of reducing substance abuse, always focusing everyone on 

concrete action steps, always empowering everyone to participate fully and always, 

always doing so with an energy, enthusiasm, and commitment to purpose which is 

contagious. 

I am confident that Mary Ann will excel in this position as she has in all others. 

She will inspire us to be tireless in our efforts, to look at a problem from all different angles, to bring all forces and all constituencies together to develop a solution 

and to demand at all times that ONDCP is working for those like her who work 

day-in and day-out devoting their lives to reducing drug abuse in our local communities.

Senator BIDEN. Thank you very much, Congressman. 

Now, I know all of you have busy schedules, so those of you who 

have already introduced, we fully understand your need to leave. 

Now, we will hear from one of the two men from Utah, which I 

learned in the last month or so is the first among the States in the 

Utah now. What a tremendous job you all did on the Olympics. We 

are going to hear from Mr. Flowers in a moment, which is an unusual practice. After these introducers, we will ask Mr. Flowers 

from Salt Lake to introduce one of our nominees as well. What an 

11

incredible job you all did, you and Orrin and the governor and Mit 

Romney. You have made America proud. Congratulations to Utah. 

Senator Bennett? 

PRESENTATION OF SCOTT BURNS, NOMINEE TO BE DEPUTY 

DIRECTOR FOR STATE AND LOCAL AFFAIRS, OFFICE OF NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL POLICY BY HON. ROBERT BENNETT, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF UTAH 

Senator BENNETT. Thank you very much for those kind words, 

Mr. Chairman, and I will accept them, as will Orrin, on behalf of 

the State, but recognize that they really belong to a whole bunch 

of people. Mr. Flowers is very much one of those, so I appreciate 

your allowing him to appear here. The Olympics were a great experience and we will bask in the glow of them for some time. 

I first got acquainted with Scott Burns and Alice Burns 10 years 

ago when we were going through an arcane trial by ordeal that is 

established in Utah’s political laws; that is, we were both running 

for office and going through a series of 29 country conventions. You 

go to each one. 

In our case, there were four candidates for the Senate; five candidates for governor; two candidates for attorney general, one of 

which was Scott Burns; and an indeterminate number of candidates for the House, depending on which district you were in. But 

those of us who were running statewide had to go to every one. 

You are allowed two minutes and you sit there through all of 

that. And in the process of moving from county to county, you get 

to know the other people on the road show pretty well. Scott and 

Alice Burns were a very attractive young couple with a very attractive new baby, and his first experience at statewide politics. He 

was running for attorney general and he was running under a fairly significant handicap which ultimately prevented him from winning, although he came within a few hundred votes. As he put it, 

‘‘I come not from rural Utah, but from remote Utah.’’ Most of the 

candidates for statewide office all come from the Salt Lake area 

and he came from Cedar City, where he was the Iron County attorney. 

In that process, as I say, I became well acquainted with him and 

with Alice, and enormously found of them. So after the election was 

over and he had failed to gain the attorney general spot by just a 

few hundred votes—and I think if he had lived a little farther 

north and would have been taken care of—I continued the friendship and found, as I would call him from time to time about various things relating to law enforcement, that he not only was a 

good law enforcement officer himself, which is his basic credential, 

but he was the most wired, plugged-in guy I had ever come across. 

There wasn’t anybody in law enforcement across the country that 

he didn’t know. I would call him with weird questions and he 

would say ‘‘I will get back to you.’’ And he would get on the phone 

and call his network of friends and come back with the answer that 

was spot-on. I was tremendously impressed with that. A county attorney in Iron County, Utah, is not supposed to know the network 

of law enforcement people around the country, but he did. 

So when he shows up as the nominee for Deputy Director for 

State and Local Affairs, I cannot think of a better fit. There isn’t 

12

anybody who would come into this job with a better network of contacts in State and local affairs on drug issues than Scott Burns. 

So you have his official biography in front of you and you have 

all of the information in front of you. Senator Hatch, who has been 

the driving force behind this nomination, is to be congratulated on 

recognizing Scott’s talent. I simply want to make it clear that I 

have absolutely no reservations whatsoever in recommending him 

to this committee and to this Senate and to this Nation as the very 

best possible man to have this particular assignment. His background qualifies him, his network of contacts prepares him, and I 

think the country will be extremely well served as he assumes this 

responsibility. 

Senator BIDEN. Well, thank you, Senator. Scott should understand that your recommendation also means a lot to this committee, and the fact that the former chairman and maybe chairman 

again of this committee thinks highly of him quite frankly about 

assures his nomination, at least as far as I am concerned. I thank 

you very much for your comments. 

Senator Allen? 

PRESENTATION OF BARRY D. CRANE, NOMINEE TO BE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF SUPPLY REDUCTION, OFFICE OF NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL POLICY AND J. ROBERT FLORES, 

NOMINEE TO BE ADMINISTRATOR, OFFICE OF JUVENILE 

JUSTICE AND DELINQUENCY PREVENTION, DEPARTMENT 

OF JUSTICE BY HON. GEORGE ALLEN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM 

THE STATE OF VIRGINIA 

Senator ALLEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Senator Hatch, Senator Grassley. I would like to introduce Dr. Crane and Robert Flores. Mr. Burns has been well handled by all these others, as well 

as obviously Ms. Solberg. 

Seeing Mr. Burns and seeing their 11-year-old daughter, Carlie—

I have a son who is 10 and who will soon be 11—when they move 

here, I hope they move to Virginia. It seems like they would be a 

good pair. 

Senator BENNETT. I have already recommended that to them. 

Senator ALLEN. Virginia? Good, good, good. 

Representative LEVIN. A little young. 

Senator ALLEN. A little young, but you also have to think ahead. 

Senator BIDEN. Keep your registration in Utah. 

By the way, that young man behind you is writing a paper on 

government. I told her she could start off with one word, ‘‘confusion.’’

Senator ALLEN. Well, let me first introduce Mr. Crane here, Mr. 

Chairman, since we are talking about the Office of Drug Control 

Policy. 

Dr. Barry Crane is the nominee by the President to be Deputy 

Director for Supply Reduction at the National Office of Drug Control Policy. Dr. Barry Crane has a reputation, and it is a wellearned reputation, as a man committed to the principle of unbiased 

analytical research driving policy decisions. That is also coupled 

with the combination of operational practicability and academic 

rigor in the area of supply reduction, and that will help him serve 

with distinction upon his confirmation by the Senate. 

13

You have his resume and his record of achievement and performance. I would like to highlight a few. In the last ten years, he has 

served as project leader for the counter-drug research effort at the 

Institute of Defense Analysis. In this position, he has led research 

scientists and consultants in examining the effectiveness of interdiction operations against the cocaine business enterprise and the 

technical performance of many interdiction systems. 

Furthermore, Dr. Crane has worked extensively with the Department of State and the Department of Justice, the Drug Enforcement Administration, the U.S. Customs Service, and the United 

Nations drug control program efforts in Bogota, Lima, and Vienna. 

He obviously possesses in-depth knowledge of the complex heroin 

and cocaine business and their markets. He is always looking for 

better ways of doing it and he is the person ideally suited for this 

position. I would say that he also has a distinguished career—besides the distinguished career in various drug control efforts, he 

served our Nation for 24 years in the Air Force, where among other 

duties he piloted fighter jets and earned a distinguished combat 

record. 

He earned his bachelor’s degree in physics from the U.S. Air 

Force Academy in 1967, and his M.S. in 1976 and his Ph.D. in 

physics from the University of Arizona. Continuing his education, 

he did become a National Security Fellow at Harvard’s JFK School 

of Government in 1987. 

He has been married for 34 years to Sherrie Crane, who is a docent at Gunston Hall, which is the home of George Mason, who 

wrote the Virginia Declaration of Rights which became the embodiment of the Bill of Rights—another reason why you should move 

to Virginia because of all that wonderful history. 

It is my pleasure obviously to highly recommend Dr. Crane for 

this nomination, and hope your swift confirmation will be forthcoming. 

Now, I also have the pleasure of introducing and presenting to 

this committee John Robert Flores, who is President Bush’s nominee to be Administrator of the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention in the Justice Department. 

Mr. Flores is a graduate of Boston University School of Law and 

is a member of the bar in New York, Massachusetts, and Virginia. 

Both of these individuals, by the way, live in Virginia, showing 

good judgment, I might say, Dr. Crane in Burke. Mr. Flores, 

though, has extensive backgrounds actually outside of Virginia. He 

has been a lawyer for 17 years and has held a number of positions 

in and outside of government. 

He served as an assistant district attorney in the Roxbury, Massachusetts, public defender’s office. He also served as an acting 

deputy chief and senior trial attorney in the Child Exploitation and 

Obscenity Section of the Justice Department’s Criminal Division, 

and most recently as senior counsel and vice president for the National Law Center for Children and Families in Fairfax, Virginia. 

His commitment to justice is well-known. He has been a tireless 

advocate on behalf of children and families, addressing the issues 

of child sexual abuse and exploitation. 

Also, since 1997, Mr. Flores has assisted a research effort on 

international sex trafficking that is currently based at Johns HopVerDate Jan 31 2003 06:54 Apr 17, 2003 Jkt 083873 PO 00000 Frm 00017 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 W:\DISC\85793 85793
14

kins University’s School for Advanced International Studies. Mr. 

Flores brings substantial management expertise to this position, 

having managed national investigative programs, a section within 

the Justice Department’s Criminal Division, and a non-profit educational organization that assists State and local law enforcement. 

Mr. Flores has also shown an ability to work constructively with 

both sides of the aisle on important issues. For example, Mr. Flores 

was part of the congressionally-created Commission on Online 

Child Protection. The commission was charged with informing the 

Congress on what avenues should be taken to increase protection 

of children on the Internet. The commission reached several unanimous conclusions and Mr. Flores was instrumental in bridging 

gaps between commissioners. 

In addition to his honorable service to his country, Mr. Flores is 

a devoted husband and father. He is married to Ingrid Flores, who 

is here, and they have three children, Robert, Catherine, and Clare. 

Senator BIDEN. I might add they are showing incredible patience. 

I don’t mean with your comments; I mean with all of us. [Laughter.] 

Senator ALLEN. I know. I have one that just turned 4 and I was 

just amazed at how quiet they were even in the beginning. I think, 

Mr. Chairman, the perspective of a parent does help, understanding what his children might be faced with and those challenges. 

I would also add, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Flores is a Hispanic American. He can serve as a role model. I know there are members and 

many of us who are concerned with the challenge that the office 

will face with the issue of disproportionate minority confinement, 

and I think that brings a special sensitivity and understanding in 

that leadership role. 

So as a teacher, a scholar, and a commentator on constitutional 

and criminal law, Mr. Flores has certainly shown and demonstrated the skills necessary to lead this effort in the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention. I highly recommend 

him to the committee, and thank you all for your consideration. 

Senator BIDEN. Well, I thank you, Senator, and I thank all of our 

colleagues. We appreciate your time and your effort and your input. 

Thank you very, very much. 

Senator ALLEN. I would say that my remarks are also on behalf 

of Senator Warner, who is in the Armed Services Committee undoubtedly now, and I know he shares my feelings. 

Senator BIDEN. Well, I was about to say, with the permission of 

the committee, Senator Warner has signed statements—he apologized for not being able to be here—with regard to both the nominees mentioned by his colleague and I will enter those in the 

record, as if read, along with an introductory and complimentary 

statement relating to the nominees from the chairman of the committee, Senator Patrick Leahy. 

[The statements of Senator Warner follow:]

STATEMENT TO THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE ON THE NOMINATION OF BARRY CRANE TO

SERVE AS DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF SUPPLY REDUCTION AT THE OFFICE

OF NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL

Chairman Leahy, Senator Hatch, and my other distinguished colleagues on the 

Senate’s Judiciary Committee, I am pleased today to introduce to the Committee 

15

Colonel Barry Crane, a Virginian, who has been nominated to serve as Deputy Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy’s (‘‘ONDCP’’) Office of Supply 

Reduction. 

As you know, the ONDCP’s purpose is to establish policies, priorities, and objectives for the Nation’s drug control program. The division within the ONDCP that 

Mr. Crane has been nominated for, the Office of Supply Reduction, is responsible 

for advising the Drug Czar on policies and programs to reduce the supply of drugs 

in this country. 

In my view, Mr. Crane’s background makes him well-suited for this position. 

Mr. Crane is currently a project leader in the Operational Evaluation Division at 

the Institute for Defense Analysis where he examines the effectiveness of interdiction operations against the cocaine business enterprise. 

Prior, Mr. Crane served in the United States Air Force for over 20 years, starting 

as a cadet at the Air Force Academy, later becoming a fighter pilot, and eventually 

retiring as a Colonel in September of 1991. 

In addition to his military service, Colonel Crane, also has an extensive education. 

After graduating from the Air Force Academy with a B.S. in Physics, Mr. Crane attended the University of Arizona where he received both a master’s degree and a 

Doctorate. Mr. Crane later served as a National Security Fellow at the Kennedy 

School of Government at Harvard University. 

Colonel Crane has dedicated a large portion of his career to public service, and 

I thank him for his willingness to serve our country again as Deputy Director of 

the Office of Supply Reduction. 

I look forward to the Committee reporting his nomination favorably and for a confirmation vote before the full Senate.

STATEMENT TO THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE ON THE NOMINATION OF ROBERT FLORES

TO SERVE AS ADMINISTRATOR OF THE OFFICE OF JUVENILE JUSTICE AND DELINQUENCY PREVENTION AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

Chairman Leahy, Senator Hatch, and my other distinguished colleagues on the 

Senate’s Judiciary Committee, I am pleased today to introduce to the Committee 

Mr. J. Robert Flores, a Virginian, who has been nominated to serve as Administrator for the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention (‘‘OJJDP’’) within the Department of Justice. 

The OJJDP’s mission is to provide leadership, coordination, and resources to prevent and respond to juvenile delinquency and victimization. OJJDP accomplishes 

this by developing prevention and intervention programs and by working to improve 

the juvenile justice system so that it protects public safety, holds offenders accountable, and provides treatment and rehabilitative services. 

As you all know, the OJJDP has an important mission. In my view, Mr. Flores’ 

extensive background in public service, the law, and in child protection makes him 

well qualified to work in support of OJJDP’s mission. 

Mr. Flores started his career after graduating from law school at Boston University by becoming an Assistant District Attorney in Manhattan. During his 5 years 

as prosecutor in New York, Robert Flores prosecuted a wide array of criminal cases. 

In 1989, Mr. Flores joined the U.S. Department of Justice, working as a Senior 

Trial Attorney in the Criminal Division’s Child Exploitation and Obscenity Section. 

In this position, Mr. Flores worked extensively in child sexual exploitation and computer crimes. 

In 1997, Mr. Flores joined the National Law Center for Children and Families, 

whose objective is focused on the protection of children and families from the harmful effect of illegal pornography. In this role, Mr. Flores specialized in providing advice and assistance to federal and state prosecutors across the country on the investigation and prosecution of child pornography, child sexual abuse, and crimes of a 

similar nature. 

Mr. Flores has obviously dedicated a large part of his career to both public service 

and to protecting children. I am grateful that he is willing to continue his public 

service, and I believe that his background will serve him well at the OJJDP. 

I look forward to the Committee reporting his nomination favorably and for a confirmation vote before the full Senate.

Senator BIDEN. Thank you, gentlemen. We appreciate it very 

much. 

Now, in a very unusual procedure, in deference to our colleague, 

Senator Hatch, but also in recognition of the incredible job the 

Commissioner of Public Safety in Salt Lake City, Utah, did during 

16

the Olympics—and I really cannot exaggerate the importance of 

the job done by Robert L. Flowers and the whole State of Utah, but 

as Commissioner of Public Safety he had an enormous responsibility. The whole world was looking at him and he conducted it 

with great class, skill, and efficiency, and we welcome him here 

today. 

This is the time, sir, that you should wish you were being nominated for something because it would be done by acclamation at 

this point. But welcome, Mr. Flowers. 

Would you like to make any comment, Senator? 

Senator HATCH. Well, I would like to thank you, Mr. Chairman, 

for permitting this. This is highly unusual to have another witness 

in this type of a hearing, but I just can’t tell you what this man 

has meant to the world at large in helping to bring about security 

for the Olympic Games that really was second to none, and in helping to bring about one of the few times in history where State, 

local, and Federal agencies all worked together in unison, resolving 

difficulties as they go, to provide the protection for one of the 

world’s most impressive and important events. Bob Flowers deserves an awful lot of the credit for that, and others who are here 

with him. 

So it is a privilege to have you here, Mr. Flowers, and I just want 

you to know how proud we all are of you and how proud we are 

of the way the Olympics went. Our country is very much impressed 

with what went on. 

Senator BIDEN. There is one condition, Commissioner, that you 

not announce for the United States Senate at any time in the near 

future. Otherwise, you will not be permitted to proceed. 

STATEMENT OF ROBERT L. FLOWERS, COMMISSIONER OF 

PUBLIC SAFETY, SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH 

Mr. FLOWERS. No, sir. I can personally commit to you that is not 

going to happen. I am from remote Utah and we only have like 30 

voters out there, so I probably wouldn’t get very far with that. 

Senator BIDEN. Well, I will tell you the whole world watched 

with initially a bit of dread and a great deal of concern. And I cannot exaggerate how important it was, the coordination and the 

work and the incredible—I mean, having dealt with the criminal 

justice system and coordination between State and local officials for 

the bulk of my public career of 29 years in the Senate, it is incredibly difficult. 

It was gigantic in its proportions, and its consequences, if you 

had failed, would have been beyond being able to be calculated, in 

my view, in terms of the impact on this country. So we in Delaware 

owe you a lot. 

But at any rate, please proceed. 

Mr. FLOWERS. Well, thank you very much. It is an honor to be 

here, first off, but we can’t emphasize enough that this was an effort both Federal, State, and local. We came out here after September 11 looking for additional support and the doors were open, 

and it was an American event, not a Utah event. We were just 

pleased to be a part of that. It went well because of Brian Stafford 

at the Secret Service and many others who were assisting, some of 

them in this room, actually. 

17

First of all, it is a little unraveling to be here. When I looked 

down and saw my name as a second panel and then, Senator 

Biden, you saying that was an unusual practice—that worried me 

a bit. You know, we were a little bit unraveled when we walked 

in the door. 

I will just take a few minutes and talk about Mr. Burns. As a 

former police chief and now Commissioner of Public Safety, we 

faced a heck of a problem in southern Utah. We were a border 

town on the Arizona-Nevada border. We had Mexican mafia, motorcycle gangs. You know, when you are in a border town you are kind 

of on your own there. We had individuals who were committing 

homicides living in Nevada, selling their drugs in Arizona, and 

dumping their bodies in Utah. 

I had worked with Mr. Burns. We had probably one of the first 

task forces in the West, frankly, and it was very successful and we 

were taking hundreds of kilos of cocaine off the interstates, hundreds of thousands of dollars. We were quite successful. 

We came out and talked with the DEA and they were quite impressed with what we did and wanted to know how we were doing 

that. A lot of it was frankly led by the prosecutor, because without 

a strong prosecutor who has a balanced position on things, you run 

into some problems. 

Then I was selected as a police chief and I inherited this problem. I didn’t really know how to deal with it. We were, again, a 

border town on three States, and I went to Mr. Burns and I said, 

you know, I don’t know what to do with this. We were being overrun by meth. We had some real issues in our high schools. Through 

Senator Hatch, we were able to get the DEA down there and they 

helped us solve our problem. So as far as being networked, I have 

to agree with Senator Bennett. I don’t know how he did that, but 

I know I and my community will be eternally grateful for that because our city did change. 

One of the things also that Mr. Burns was talking about long before it was popular was things like drug courts and rehabilitation 

and things like that, and making sure that the law enforcement officers were approaching this legally, that we were doing things 

right, and that our case could stand up in court. 

I mean this sincerely: he formed my enforcement policy. I have 

every intention of modeling his leadership style and drug task force 

leadership statewide. Now, we are looking in Colorado, we are looking into Wyoming, and we are trying to team up with Nevada. So 

we are looking at this task force concept and making it really work 

in our three- or four-State area out there. 

So as far as it goes from Utah law enforcement—and I also spoke 

to my Wyoming counterparts, my Colorado counterparts, and an individual from Nevada, and they said please express our support for 

Scott Burns in this nomination, and if there is anything we can do, 

we are here to assist that. 

With that, I will be brief and I will go back and sit down, but 

thank you for the opportunity. It is an honor to be here, Senator 

Biden, and be before you also, Senator Hatch. 

Senator BIDEN. Well, it is an honor to have you here. 

I know Moab. I got off a raft on the Colorado River for two days 

in Moab, Utah, and it is a great place. The water got kind of calm 

18

down there, Scott, and I got tired. After 10 days I got off the river 

and went to the hot spots in Moab, in 1974 and 1975. It is a beautiful and fascinating part of the world, although things have 

changed a little bit, as you have said, with the growth of trafficking 

in meth and a lot of other substances. 

It is an example of what rural communities—and I know it is not 

a little town, but what rural communities and isolated communities, particularly on borders between States, are undergoing. 

Most people don’t realize it, but you realize it, that a child is more 

likely to be exposed to meth and to cocaine in rural America than 

in urban America today. 

Mr. FLOWERS. That is right. 

Senator BIDEN. Fifty-five percent of the over 3,000 counties in 

America have no psychologists, no psychiatry, no treatment, no 

anything in those facilities. So the job is a heck of a lot tougher, 

and it is a credit to you and to the person you are praising that 

you have got things pretty well under control. 

So welcome, and unless the Senator has anything more to 

say——

Senator HATCH. Let me just thank you, Bob, and I thank the 

chairman here for allowing you to testify because I think it is very 

important for this country to hear your story and to know what you 

have been able to do, along with Earl here and others who are here 

with you, and Scott Burns in particular. I have inestimable respect 

for all of you. 

Scott, you have to be very pleased that these folks have traveled 

all the way back to support you. You and Alice have to be pleased 

with that, and it says a lot about you that I know this committee 

will take into consideration. 

So thanks for being here and thanks for taking the time. 

Mr. FLOWERS. It is an honor to be here, sir. 

Senator HATCH. And thanks for what you did for the whole world 

out there in Utah. 

Mr. FLOWERS. Well, we are glad it went off well. It was unraveling and we were a bit nervous for 13 days, and that roar at the 

end was us; it was not the crowd at the closing ceremonies. So 

thank you. 

Senator BIDEN. Thank you. 

Now, I would ask all of our nominees to come forward—Mary 

Ann Solberg, Barry Crane, Scott Burns, and John Robert Flores. 

I think, Mary Ann, they are seating you on my left here, and 

then Dr. Crane, Mr. Burns, and Mr. Flores. We will proceed in that 

order, but before we begin I would like you all to remain standing 

while I swear you in. 

Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give before 

this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but 

the truth, so help you God? 

Ms. SOLBERG. I do. 

Mr. CRANE. I do. 

Mr. BURNS. I do. 

Mr. FLORES. I do. 

Senator BIDEN. Please be seated. 

19

I would invite you, Ms. Solberg, to begin with any opening statement you may have, and then we will move to your left and then 

will proceed with questioning. Welcome.

STATEMENT OF MARY ANN SOLBERG, NOMINEE TO BE DEPUTY DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL POLICY 

Ms. SOLBERG. Thank you. Chairman Biden, Ranking Member 

Hatch, and Senator Grassley, it is an honor to be here today to be 

considered for the position of Deputy Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy. 

I would like to take just a moment, if I may, to introduce to all 

of you my daughter, Laura, who is sitting behind me, and her 

friend, Kent Trowbridge. I would also like to introduce to you, because they have traveled so far today, the president of the Troy 

Community Coalition, Ida Edmunds, and the Superintendent of the 

Troy School District, Dr. Jamet Jopke, both instrumental in my 

program. 

Senator BIDEN. Would you both please stand? 

[Ms. Edmunds and Ms. Jopke stood.] 

Senator BIDEN. Welcome. 

Ms. SOLBERG. I have submitted a statement for the record and 

I would like it to be included in full. 

Senator BIDEN. It will be included. 

Ms. SOLBERG. I will keep my remarks brief this morning. 

I have for the past 11 years worked across the continuum of substance abuse prevention, treatment, and interdiction. I have 

worked at every level of government and I have worked with a 

huge variety of sectors, including parents, police, the courts, the 

faith community, and business. 

I have taken Federal programs and I have translated them to 

community outcomes, decreasing substance abuse, as is noted in 

my statement, across multiple ages and multiple drugs. I understand Federal programs, I understand community needs. 

It is important that we continue the reduction in substance 

abuse that we have witnessed recently. The President and Congress care about this issue. You have provided the tools. I have the 

experience and the ability to motivate and to involve that vast volunteer cadre that really is necessary if we are going to achieve the 

goals in the 2002 national drug control strategy. 

I look forward to working with Director Walters, with Dr. 

Barthwell, and with my fellow nominees. Together, we have a vast 

array of expertise, the expertise the American people deserve. Together, as a team, I believe that we have a wonderful chance of reducing substance in the United States. 

I thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Solberg follows:]

TESTIMONY OF MARY ANN SOLBERG, NOMINEE TO BE DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL DRUG

CONTROL POLICY

Chairmen Leahy and Biden, Ranking Member Hatch, and distinguished members 

of the Committee: It is an honor to appear before you today as you consider my 

nomination for Deputy Director of National Drug Control Policy. 

Over the course of my career in the field of prevention, I have observed how deeply the power of a movement lies in the will of the people. Churchill understood that 

20

simple fact. So did Franklin Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln, Ronald Reagan and 

Martin Luther King. It is a power that I have seen produce miracles, large and 

small, in substance abuse prevention and reduction. It is the power of what each 

of us, working together, can achieve. In my estimation, it is the power that gives 

energy to the motto ‘‘Prevention Works.’’ Prevention DOES work. Treatment works. 

Moreover, they work hand in hand with law enforcement and interdiction efforts 

that are equally important in controlling this scourge that threatens our youth, families and communities. 

Where there is community will and volunteer commitment and experienced leadership to balance the professional contributions of law enforcement and the federal 

government, the public health problem that is substance abuse can, indeed, be controlled if not eradicated. The effectiveness of community coalitions is one of the bestkept secrets in the United States. I know—I am part of a highly successful community coalition. The spirit of the Troy Community Coalition for the Prevention of 

Drug and Alcohol Abuse grabbed me immediately and kept me in its thrall for 11 

years in a field where burnout is endemic. 

We changed laws. We changed attitudes of youth related to drug use. We increased the knowledge and capacity of local youths, adults, and institutions to respond effectively to substance abuse issues. We partnered with law enforcement and 

the courts, with business and schools. We become an active player at several community leadership tables. And today, we are seeing some effects on actual drug use: 

marijuana use is declining, binge drinking is declining, middle school tobacco use 

is declining, and age-of-onset of first use of tobacco is increasing. We have affected 

not only knowledge and attitudes, but we also have had a real effect on behavior. 

Moreover, when the news of our success filtered to surrounding communities, they, 

too, were eager to join in. The result is the Coalition of Healthy Communities, a 

collaboration of seven substance abuse prevention coalitions encompassing seventeen communities in southeast Oakland County, Michigan. 

The Troy program advanced rapidly because of the resources provided by a seed 

grant from the Federal government, through SAMHSA’s Center for Substance Abuse 

Prevention. This job is too big for communities to go it alone. They need guidance 

and support from their state and federal government; they need the expertise and 

professionalism that ONDCP and other Federal agencies such as CSAP and NIDA 

can offer. My experience as a grant recipient will be invaluable as I work at 

ONDCP. I understand the process but more importantly this first hand knowledge 

will allow me to target real community needs as I work nationally to achieve lasting 

reduction in drug abuse. 

And the results must be evaluated. We have been fortunate in having a university 

in our community that was willing to provide us evaluative services from the outset. 

Documenting our progress was the credibility factor the community required. In 

Troy we operate our community coalition as a business, not just a prevention program. Our inspiration comes as much from management Guru Peter Drucker as it 

does from Professor Hawkins and Catalano, whose theory of risk factors in their 

book the early 1990s ‘‘Communities that Care’’ so changed the landscape of substance abuse prevention. That means targeting goals, setting up a business plan, 

and marketing, marketing, marketing. 

Only a few months after our formation, a community survey revealed that nearly 

60 percent of the community recognized our name and could describe our mission. 

That’s huge. Our volunteer pool is immense. The secret? Letting people know how 

vital is their role as mentors and coaches, engaged in skills training and finding 

community solutions to such problems as alternative activities for kids. These are 

lessons learned that will be invaluable in my work at ONDCP. If I have a single 

mantra about substance abuse prevention it is this: multiple strategies over multiple sectors. The comprehensive approach outlined by the President is crystal clear: 

attacking this problem on multiple fronts is the only route to success. This means 

stopping the drug dealers in our cities and our rural communities. It means stopping the traffickers who seek to make their millions off the souls of our children. 

It means strengthening our families so that our youth have the resilience to say 

‘‘no.’’ It means bolstering the job market so that adults won’t turn to drugs as an 

antidote for their failures. It means giving our police and our courts the tools they 

need to deal with the problem when the other strategies have failed. And it means

stripping substance abuse of its glamour and mystique that attracts young people 

like a siren’s song. 

The ONDCP Media Campaign has been invaluable in this respect. Its messages 

to parents are superb. The parenting aspects of the media campaign have been incredibly helpful, as has been their work with the Ad Council to promote coalitions, 

a campaign that has given coalitions both national visibility and credibility. We 

know we can’t do it all, and we can’t do it alone. We can’t grab their attention—

21

be it parents or youth—as television does. However, if the media wasn’t a player 

in this campaign, the negative messages would prevail. It is vital we maintain this 

relationship and explore every possible means of reaching people. The media campaign has also taught us to talk to our kids and, even more importantly, to listen. 

It is a strategy that has been part of the foundation of the Troy Community Coalition since its inception. We bring in the movers and the shakers of the community 

as well as parents and clergy, law enforcement and health providers. Then we let 

the young people talk, and we listen. We listen hard, and then take action. The 

youth become our mentors, our coaches and our partners. 

Another reason we have been successful in Troy is that we are relentlessly inclusive. We try to have everyone at the table at all times. We make special effort to 

involve groups who aren’t used to being part of the community as a whole. And once 

we get them to the table, we keep them there. We have not lost a single member 

of the coalition since its inception save those who have moved away. We cultivate 

and nurture our community partners. We make sure our volunteers are regularly 

recognized. We give back to our businesses and schools and corporations. That inclusiveness is important for ONDCP as well, as it seeks to involve all sectors in a balanced effort to stop drugs: community activism, dedicated law enforcement and 

interdiction efforts that go far beyond our borders. 

Prevention alone won’t solve this public health problem. Clearly we need treatment for those already caught in the vicious cycle of drug abuse, and we need to 

do everything in our power to stem the flow of drugs into our communities. The 

same research that has alerted us to the risk and protective factors that underlie 

drug use has shown us that availability leads to early use. Make it harder for kids 

to get drugs, and fewer of them will become users. We have to control access with 

as much fervor as we mobilize communities. My commitment to multiple strategies 

across multiple sectors is perfectly reflected in the balanced approach that ONDCP 

espouses: the coordination of efforts to eliminate or reduce drug trafficking through 

the High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area (HIDTA) Program, the counterdrug enforcement research and development efforts, the National Youth Anti-Drug Media 

Campaign, and support of community efforts through the Drug-Free Communities 

program. There’s room for all strategies here: Prevention, Education, Treatment and 

Interdiction. The four strike a balanced approach that leads to lowered drug use. 

Moreover, we need to continue to support the work being done at the National 

Institutes of Health, specifically at the National Institute on Drug Abuse, in the research arena. Knowing how drugs affect the brain, both short and long term, is vital 

information to get out to the community. Second to parents, it’s one of the best antidotes I know. I have had some experience in community-based treatment through 

the drug court program. A drug court that was recently established in Troy decided 

to take on some of the hard-core cases that some drug courts shun. The results have 

been miraculous. The reward/reinforcement approach coupled with sound treatment 

clearly works. And this is a big problem, bigger than many of us realize. As a coalition leader, the most frequent question I get asked is about treatment, even though 

my focus is prevention. It’s a recurring question: ‘‘I have a wife, a daughter, a son, 

a grandparent with a problem. Where can I take them to get help?’’ We make our 

communities and our businesses and our insurers understand how vital treatment 

is to achieving our goals of reducing substance abuse. And we must continue to advocate relentlessly against legalization, a step that I believe would cancel many of 

the gains we have made in the past decade. 

As deputy director of ONDCP, I would work tirelessly to mobilize our communities and our national will to continue the campaign against substance abuse, to 

end the tragic loss of life that it incurs and to reverse the significant losses in productivity and earnings, estimated in the billions, that serve as its collateral damage. 

We need to tirelessly promote the reality that all organizations and agencies in communities, all concerned citizens, and all local, state and federal policy makers have 

an important role to play in ridding our country of drugs. 

Just as our leaders and our Congress has made clear that the war on terrorism 

will be a complicated, drawn out process, so, too, is our campaign against drug 

abuse. But for every community, every neighborhood, every shop, every precinct, 

every school, every street corner, and every family where substance abuse has left 

its mark, we can collectively make a difference. 

Thank you for this opportunity to testify and I look forward to answering any 

questions the Committee may have.

[The biographical information of Ms. Solberg follows:]

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Senator BIDEN. Thank you very much. 

I see Senator Warner has come in. We noted that he was necessarily absent on Armed Services Committee business and we 

have put his statements in the record regarding two nominees, but 

we welcome him and invite any comment he would like to make. 

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN WARNER, A U.S. SENATOR FROM 

THE STATE OF VIRGINIA 

Senator WARNER. Mr. Chairman, I thank you very much. Senator 

Allen introduced my statements. 

Senator BIDEN. He did. 

Senator WARNER. I am simply here to observe for a brief period, 

and I thank the Chair and I welcome our nominees who are offering themselves to public service. 

Senator BIDEN. Thank you very much, Senator. 

Dr. Crane? 

STATEMENT OF BARRY D. CRANE, NOMINEE TO BE DEPUTY 

DIRECTOR OF SUPPLY REDUCTION, OFFICE OF NATIONAL 

DRUG CONTROL POLICY 

Mr. CRANE. Chairman Biden and Senator Hatch and distinguished members of the committee, I really want to thank you for 

having this hearing today and I want to thank the President for 

the honor of nominating me. I especially want to thank Senator 

Warner and Senator Allen for their introduction. 

I want to acknowledge here today my wife, who has been with 

me all these years in service to our country. She has supported us 

in time of war when we were in Operation Homecoming. She currently volunteers and teaches little children about how the Bill of 

Rights came at Gunston Hall, so I want to acknowledge her. 

Senator BIDEN. Welcome. 

Mr. CRANE. I will keep my opening remarks brief and respectfully request that the committee enter my entire written statement. 

Mr. BIDEN. Your entire statement will be placed in the record. 

Mr. CRANE. My professional research since 1993 at the Institute 

for Defense Analysis has reinforced my own personal philosophy 

that our country needs a balanced drug control policy. You have to 

have all of these things—prevention, treatment, enforcement, international, and interdiction activities. 

Each drug control program has its own merits, but it will be my 

job, if confirmed, to assist the director in developing and implementing effective supply reduction policies. Effective supply reduction not only will reduce the supply of illicit drugs that enter our 

borders, but it will also disrupt the profit margins of the drug traffickers. And these are ordinarily used to expand markets, but most 

notably in this time of war and terrorism, a lot of these funds have 

gone to expand terrorism and really violent and evil things in our 

world. So this will be an important job. I look at this as a national 

security job as well as a drug control job. 

My recent professional experience has been well-suited for this 

post. I have provided support to the United States interdiction coordinator, Admiral Loy, since 1994, and I have made many recommendations over time on how to improve our operations. 

38

1Page VI–2, Empirical Examination of Counterdrug Interdiction Program Effectiveness, Jan 

1997. 2Our demand research was used to understand how the military dramatically reduced its 

drug abuse problem to levels far below the general population. 

I have also supported the Department of Defense in its role of 

detection of monitoring, and also we did reviews of the internal demand control programs in the Department of Defense to minimize 

drug problems within armed services personnel. 

We also did a lot of research on the law enforcement operations 

of the Coast Guard for the Office of Law Enforcement. Our research developed an in-depth understanding of how these illicit 

drug enterprises actually work, and it is principally based on observations and recorded data. 

Our empirical approaches have been tested and validated by a 

number of independent data sources, and also many operations 

spanning really decades of time. They have enabled our research 

team to characterize and quantify the largest effects attributable to 

individual and collective supply control operations, and to formulate insightful, practical, and useful drug trafficking deterrents. As 

you know, the hit-and-run operations came really out of the research. We have to arrest these people. It really increases operational performance, so the specialized units for the Coast Guard 

came out of this. As deputy director, I will aid the director and use 

these as a basis for policy formation. 

In conclusion, I am very grateful for this nomination and I want 

to thank all the Senators for their great support over this time. 

Thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Crane follows:]

STATEMENT OF BARRY D. CRANE, NOMINEE TO BE DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR SUPPLY

REDUCTION, OFFICE OF NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL POLICY

Chairmen Leahy and Biden, Ranking Member Hatch, and distinguished Members 

of the Committee: I want to thank the President for the honor of nominating me 

to the Office of the Deputy Director for Supply Reduction, Office of National Drug 

Control Policy, and I am grateful to the Committee on the Judiciary for considering 

my nomination. 

My professional research since 1993 at the Institute for Defense Analyses 1 has 

reinforced my personal philosophy that our country needs a balanced drug control 

policy, encompassing a wide array of prevention, treatment, domestic enforcement, 

and international, and interdiction activities. Each drug control program has its own 

merits and it will be my job, if confirmed, to assist the Director in developing and 

implementing an effective supply reduction policy that complements the many positive contributions of demand reduction. Effective supply reduction not only will reduce the supply of illicit drugs that enter our borders, but it will also disrupt the 

profit margins of drug traffickers—ordinarily used to expand markets and to finance 

other illegal activities, including, most notably, terrorism. In this time of war, my 

initial focus as Deputy Director for Supply Reduction will be the connection of drug 

markets to the financing of terrorist organizations. 

My recent professional experience is well suited for my nominated post. I aided 

the U.S. Interdiction Coordinator in analyzing the effectiveness of interdiction operations and developing recommendations for improvements in these operations. I 

supported the Department of Defense in evaluating the effectiveness of DoD’s detection and monitoring mission and DoD’s internal demand control programs.2 My research team provided numerous detailed technical assessments for the Joint Interagency Task Force East of the U.S. Southern Command. Also, my research team 

analyzed the effectiveness of law enforcement operations for the Office of Law Enforcement, United States Coast Guard, and for country attache ́s of the Drug Enforcement Administration. 

Our research has developed an in-depth understanding of how illicit drug enterprises actually work, and our research is principally based upon observations and 

39

3Most previous research adhered to a priori academic research that has had limited practical 

success in explaining actual data and observed behaviors. For example, the simultaneous dramatic drop in both cocaine price and usage in the early 1980’s has not been explained. 

recorded data rather than academic theories.3 Our empirical approaches have been 

tested on and validated by independent data sources, some spanning decades of 

events. They have enabled our research team to characterize and quantify the largest effects attributable to individual and collective supply control operations, and to 

formulate insightful and practically useful drug trafficking deterrence models. Our 

research has been used to improve supply control operations. As Deputy Director 

for Supply Reduction, I will continue use an empirically-based approach to guide our 

policy formulation. 

In conclusion, I am grateful for the nomination of Deputy Director for Supply Reduction, I look forward to serving my country in that capacity, and I am ready for 

the hard work and the many challenges that lay ahead.

[The biographical information of Mr. Crane follows:]

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Senator HATCH [presiding]. Well, thank you, Dr. Crane. 

Senator Biden had to take a phone. So, Scott Burns, we will now 

take your testimony.

STATEMENT OF SCOTT BURNS, NOMINEE TO BE DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR STATE AND LOCAL AFFAIRS, OFFICE OF NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL POLICY 

Mr. BURNS. Thank you. Ranking Member Hatch, Senator Grassley, Senator Warner, I will keep my statement brief, as the others, 

hopefully under two minutes, and I respectfully request that the 

committee enter my written statement for the record. 

Senator HATCH. Without objection, we will do exactly that. 

Mr. BURNS. I am honored to appear before you today as the 

nominee for Deputy Director of State and Local Affairs of the Office 

of National Drug Control Policy. I want to express my sincere appreciation to you, Senator Hatch, for your kind remarks, to Senator 

Bennett, and for your willingness to bring Public Safety Commissioner Flowers out here from Utah, not only I know to honor him, 

but that he would be willing to come out here on my behalf. I 

thank you sincerely. 

Senator HATCH. Thank you. We are grateful to him as well. 

Mr. BURNS. As a prosecuting attorney, over the past 15 years I 

have seen firsthand the devastating effects of illicit drug use in this 

country. I have observed the smuggling and the distribution and 

the use of marijuana that has risen and fallen over the years, depending on the market. 

I was there for the initial popularity and no harm done by using 

cocaine, and therefore the devastation of that drug that we all 

learned about; the proliferation of methamphetamine that is moving from the East Coast to the West Coast, and dealing with methamphetamine labs and clean-ups, but more, I guess, the clean-up 

of the hearts and the souls and minds of those that become addicted. 

I have been there for the latest craze of GHB and club drugs. 

And, Senator Hatch, I thank you for your field hearings that you 

held in Utah addressing that when that issue first became known 

across the country. 

I know, like each of you, that I think the men and women across 

this country who investigate and prosecute drug crimes are committed to reducing drug use and addiction, reducing the ancillary 

crimes associated with that problem. And I believe that thousands 

of Americans, men and women, get up every day and do their very 

best to deal with this insidious problem. 

Over the past 15 years, I have had the opportunity to work with 

drug counselors, county commissioners, city council persons, prosecutors, police chiefs, task force members, rehabilitation program 

directors, and I have been involved in the prosecution of nearly 

every illicit drug available to our citizens. 

As such, I have worked in the trenches, Senators, to try and 

make a difference with respect to these problems. And if fortunate 

enough to be confirmed, I hope to bring the message from the 

trenches, from State and local people, to you, and I hope to take 

your message back to State and local governments and elected and 

appointed officials across this country. 

53

I thank you for the opportunity to testify. I look forward to answering any questions the committee may have. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Burns follows:]

TESTIMONY OF SCOTT BURNS, NOMINEE TO BE DUPUTY DIRECTOR FOR STATE AND

LOCAL AFFAIRS OF NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL POLICY

Chairman Leahy and Biden, Ranking Member Hatch, and distinguished members 

of the Committee: I am honored to appear before you today as you consider my nomination for Deputy Director for State and Local Affairs of National Drug Control Policy. First and foremost, I want to express my sincere appreciation to each member 

of the Committee for the advice, encouragement, and counsel I have received during 

the nomination process. 

As a prosecuting attorney for the past fifteen years, I have seen firsthand the devastating effects of illicit drug use in this country. I have observed the smuggling, 

distribution, and illegal use of marijuana; the rise in popularity and consequent devastation of cocaine; the proliferation of methamphetamine laboratories and methamphetamine abuse that is sweeping across the country from the west coast to the 

east coast; the latest craze of GHB, Ecstasy, and other so-called ‘‘club drugs;’’ and 

the daily tragedies associated with prescription abuse that knows no cultural or socioeconomic boundaries. Like each of you, I believe that the women and men who 

investigate and prosecute drug offenses across this country are committed to reducing drug use and addiction, and in doing so, reducing ancillary crimes that are often 

inherent to that human condition. I also believe that, while we can do better, thousands of Americans are working hard every day in substance abuse treatment programs and prevention centers to assist our citizens dealing with drug use. In particular, I believe that all of us have made, and should make, special effort to address 

drug use among our children. 

As I have heard many of you state publicly, I do not believe that our common goal 

of reducing drug use, especially among our youth, is a Republican, Democratic, or 

an Independent problem. I believe these issues are a national problem. In preparing 

for this hearing, I have had the opportunity to examine some of the issues that each 

of you are dealing with in your respected states and, as such, I am struck more by 

the commonality than the differences. However, the manner and methods by which 

we address these complex issues is the subject of much debate. I have always believed that our first goal must be prevention, followed by efforts to assist those who 

have become addicted to illegal drugs through counseling and treatment. The criminal justice system should always be the last resort. I also believe that we must concentrate prevention efforts on our youth as virtually every study available suggests 

that the sooner we intervene, educate, and assist, the greater the likelihood for success. With the foregoing in mind, I also believe that the criminal justice system 

plays an important role in the national drug control policy and we must use every 

tool available to reduce the demand for illicit drugs, limit the supply, and treat 

those that are struggling every day with addiction. 

Over the past fifteen years, I have had the opportunity to work with the drug 

counselors, county commissioners, city councilpersons, prosecutors, police chiefs, 

sheriffs, alternative youth rehabilitation program directors, and drug task force 

members. I have been involved in the prosecution of nearly every illicit drug available to our citizens (methamphetamine, cocaine, LSD, heroin, marijuana, prescription fraud and abuse, and rave or club drugs). As such, I have worked with prosecutors from across the country, and if fortunate enough to be confirmed, I hope to 

bring the perspective of one ‘‘in the trenches’’ to the Office of National Drug Control 

Policy. Equally as important, I hope to deliver your message, and the message of 

the President, as relating to national drug control policy, to state and local officials 

across our great nation. I will work with my friend, Eugena Loggins, who is the District Attorney in Andalusia, Alabama, with respect to the horrors of methamphetamine that will soon reach her jurisdiction. I will work with my colleagues, Terry 

L. White, Chief-Deputy-in-Charge for the Los Angeles District Attorney’s Office, 

Tom Sneddon, Santa Barbara District Attorney, and Robert Morgenthau, the District Attorney of New York City, to find better ways wherein the Congress, Office 

of National Drug Control Policy, and other departments and agencies can assist in 

their efforts, in the real world, to deal with the horror of illegal drugs and attendant 

crimes. I will work with Mike Rogers, an Assistant States Attorney for Cook County 

in Chicago; I will work with Ann Gardner, Senior Assistant Commonwealth Attorney in Roanoke, Virginia; I will make every effort to assist Mark Larson, Chief Deputy of the Prosecutor’s Office in Seattle, Washington, as well as Lynette Reda, the 

Assistant D.A. in Buffalo, New York. I will strive, humbly, to ‘‘speak their language’’ 

54

in bridging whatever gaps there may be on the national, state, and local level in 

an effort to help all of us reach our common goal as relating to illicit drug use. I 

pledge to continue to work on drug issues with Michael McCann, the District Attorney of Milwaukee County, Wisconsin, and I will coordinate closely with Tom 

Charron, the Director of Education at the National District Attorney’s Association, 

to make certain that those entrusted with prosecuting drug offenses do so in a professional and fair manner. I will also reach out to the attorney generals, sheriffs, 

police chiefs, federal law enforcement agencies, community leaders, and prevention 

and treatment professionals, on behalf of the Office of National Drug Control Policy, 

to make certain that supply reduction, treatment, and education are balanced and 

to ensure that tax dollars are being spent prudently.

Mr. Chairman, I am well aware of the great strides that you and the distinguished members of this Committee have made over the years in reducing the demand for, and supply of, illegal drugs. I am also aware that thousands of good 

women and men go to work each day in an effort to prevent illegal use and distribution of harmful drugs, and they are doing a good job. If fortunate enough to be confirmed, I will dedicate myself to build on those successes by coordinating the national drug control policy with state and local officials nationwide. 

Thank you for this opportunity to testify, and I look forward to answering any 

questions the Committee may have.

[The biographical information of Mr. Burns follows:]

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Senator HATCH. Well, thank you, Scott. We know that you mean 

business, we know that you have been there, and we know you understand these problems. We also know that you understand the 

importance of helping people who have these problems. So I expect 

you to be one of the greatest people we have ever had in this area, 

and I have no doubt you will be. 

Mr. Flores, we have a lot of respect for you as well, as you know. 

We appreciate the work that you have done through the years, so 

we will turn to you at this time. 

STATEMENT OF J. ROBERT FLORES, NOMINEE TO BE ADMINISTRATOR, OFFICE OF JUVENILE JUSTICE AND DELINQUENCY PREVENTION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 

Mr. FLORES. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman, members of 

the committee, it is an honor to appear before this committee as 

President Bush’s nominee for the position of the Administrator of 

the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention. I am 

deeply grateful for the confidence and trust that the President and 

the Attorney General have placed in me, and I can assure you I 

will work hard to justify their trust. 

Before I begin, with your indulgence I would like to introduce my 

family. They are here with me today and it is an important day for 

my family, not just for me. They have helped me to get where I 

am—my wife, Ingrid; my son, Robert; my daughters, Catherine and 

Clare; and my mother, Abigail. 

Senator HATCH. We welcome all of you here. These kids are pretty impressive. I am starting to worry about my grandchildren. 

[Laughter.] 

Senator HATCH. It is great to have you all here and we are very 

proud that you are with us and that your husband is being tapped 

for this important position. 

Mr. FLORES. Thank you, Senator. 

As a parent, a prosecutor, and child advocate, I am sadly all too 

familiar with many of the challenges facing children today in their 

efforts to avoid temptation that if they are not successful in resisting will lead to broken lives. 

As you have heard from my colleagues here who are up before 

the committee today, the availability of drugs, a culture that urges 

immediate gratification, and an acceptance of violence as a means 

of resolving conflict make it increasingly difficult to choose right 

over wrong. As if this were not enough, the institution of the family 

faces continued attack, making it difficult for parents to care for 

their own children, not to mention keeping an eye out for those of 

their neighbors. 

Because of this, I believe that the challenges and work that belong to the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention 

are among the most important and critical facing Government. The 

President’s goal of leaving no child being must, I believe, include 

those children and youth that are in the juvenile justice system or 

at risk of entering that system. Should the Senate confirm me, I 

pledge to work hard on their behalf. 

At first glance, my career has been focused primarily on prosecution. So the question might be asked, why now focus on juvenile 

76

justice? I can’t put it any more simply than the way I answered the 

question when my son asked me: because I want to help children.

I believe that my background has made me especially sensitive 

to what is at stake when we don’t reach children at any early age, 

protect them from violence and abuse, and assist their parents, 

their caretakers and community in building them up. I am aware 

that failure to achieve those goals is registered not just in statistics, but in broken lives that often turn to crime or are trapped in 

a life of violence that has severe repercussions. 

Because I have looked into the faces of children who have vented 

the anger in their lives through crime and violence because they 

have been neglected, abandoned, victimized sexually, mistreated in 

countless ways and made to feel as if they were invisible, I believe 

that any successful law enforcement effort must have as its primary goals the transformation of lives, the prevention of crime, together with the effective enforcement of law. 

These goals require that we focus not only on punishment for actions that are wrong, but prevention by teaching what is right, encouraging and modeling that behavior, and investing resources in 

their lives and those of their families. 

There are a number of programs at the Office of Juvenile Justice 

that are already underway and that I believe will help pave the 

way to transforming lives. They require financial resources, yes, 

but they also require an intimate and personal investment, and investment of one’s time, talent, and personal treasure into the lives 

of children. 

After all, there is not a single person in this room who can claim 

to have made it all by themselves. I know that I have enjoyed the 

support, encouragement, counsel, discipline, and material gifts of 

many, from those of my parents, family, and friends, teachers, 

church leaders, and professional colleagues. 

The programs that OJJDP has that include mentoring, focus on 

community involvement, and effective intervention and partnering 

so that the difficult work of getting and staying on track need not 

happen alone must receive special attention. I do believe in requiring individual responsibility and personal hard work, but support 

from others as they are able must be part of any equation that has 

public safety and care of children as its result. 

I look forward to working with the staff at the Office of Juvenile 

Justice. I spent eight years working in the Justice Department 

with colleagues. Some of the folks at OJJDP I worked with then, 

and I look forward to doing that now. I know that there is no shortage of commitment on their part. 

Before concluding my statement, I want to share a personal story 

that I hope will shed some light on my perspective as it pertains 

to two important issues that the Office of Juvenile Justice has to 

be committed to address. They are disproportionate minority confinement and school violence. 

I grew up in a middle-class neighborhood, in a home where my 

parents thought nothing of personal sacrifice for their children. 

While we were not wealthy, my brother and I lacked for nothing 

that was truly important. My parents were everywhere, and as 

quaint as it might seem to some, they were always my greatest 

supporters and cheerleaders. One day in fifth grade, however, I 

77

came face to face with something that I had never before confronted. 

I was the only Puerto Rican kid in my school and had been since 

we moved into that community for a couple of years, but I encountered my first ethnic slur and that word had amazing power for an 

11-year-old. That word, brought home from college by the older 

brother of a school friend, really made a difference to me. 

My schoolmate thought it might be fun to try it out on me and 

he did. I didn’t understand the full ramifications of that word or 

its meaning, but I knew that the children’s refrain that ‘‘words can 

never hurt me’’ was horribly wrong. In one fell swoop, I became 

embarrassed about my heritage and I did not have the skills to 

deal with it. 

I retreated into my family. I didn’t want to go back to school. In 

fact, I remember wanting to see no one, but what happened next 

made all of the difference. Neighbors came forward to support me. 

They provided a caring and protective environment that helped my 

parents put the incident into perspective for me. Knowing I wasn’t 

alone, I went back to school. As my presence here testifies, God has 

blessed me and I have enjoyed a great deal of success and the support of many people. While that episode has past, I have never forgotten it. 

I share this with you because I want you to have confidence that 

I will be sensitive to these issues. Racism, bigotry, and bullying are 

not limited to the playground. If it influences sentencing confinement decisions, makes true reentry into the community impossible, 

threatens the creation of a safe learning environment, or facilitates 

or contributes to domestic violence, it will be a priority for me. 

Such influences have no place in any system of justice, and it offends me deeply not just because of my heritage, but because it is 

offensive to any prosecutor who has spent his career doing justice. 

I want to thank the committee for the opportunity to appear 

today. I want to thank Senator Hatch and Senator Grassley for 

their support, and for Senator Warner’s statement this morning 

and for Senator Allen’s as well. I look forward to taking any questions that you might have. 

Thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Flores follows:]

STATEMENT OF J. ROBERT FLORES, NOMINEE TO BE ADMINISTRATOR OF THE OFFICE

OF JUVENILE JUSTICE AND DELINQUENCY PREVENTION

Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee: It is an honor to appear before 

this Committee as President Bush’s nominee for the position of Administrator of the 

Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention. I am deeply grateful for the 

confidence and trust that the President and the Attorney General have placed in 

me and I will work hard to justify their trust. 

As a parent, prosecutor, and child advocate, I am sadly, all too familiar with many 

of the challenges facing today’s children and youth to avoid temptations that will 

lead to broken lives. The easy availability of drugs and alcohol, a culture that urges 

immediate gratification, and an acceptance of violence as a means of resolving conflict make it increasingly difficult to choose the right over wrong. As if this were 

not enough, the institution of the family faces continued attack making it difficult 

for parents to care for their own children, not to mention keeping an eye out for 

those of their neighbors. Because of this, I believe that the challenges and work that 

belong to OJJDP are among the most important and critical facing government. The 

President’s Goal of leaving no child behind, must, I believe, also include those children and youth that are in the juvenile justice system or at risk of entering that 

system. Should the Senate confirm me, I pledge to work hard on their behalf. 

78

At first glance, my career has been one focused primarily on prosecution. So the 

question might be asked, why now a focus on juvenile justice? Simply put, because 

I want to help children. I believe that my background has made me especially sensitive to what is at stake when we don’t reach children at an early age, protect them 

from violence and abuse, and assist their parents, caretakers, and community in 

building them up. I am aware that failure to achieve those goals is registered not 

only in statistics, but in broken lives that often turn to crime or are trapped in a 

life of violence that has severe repercussions. Because I have seen the faces of children who have the anger in their lives through crime and violence because they 

have been neglected and abandoned, victimized sexually, mistreated in countless 

ways, and made to feel as if they were all but invisible, I believe that any successful 

law enforcement effort must have as its primary goals, the transformation of lives, 

the prevention of crime, together with the effective enforcement of law. And these 

goals require that we focus not only on punishment for actions that are wrong, but 

prevention by teaching what is right, encouraging and modeling that behavior, and 

investing resources in their lives and those of their families. 

There are a number of programs and efforts already underway that I believe will 

pave the way to transforming lives. Yes, they require financial resources but they 

also require an intimate and personal investment. An investment of one’s time, talent, and personal treasure into the life of children. After all, there is not a single 

person in this room that can claim to have made it all by themselves. I know that 

I have enjoyed the support, encouragement, counsel, discipline, and material gifts 

of many, from those of my parents and family to friends, teachers, church leaders, 

and professional colleagues. Programs that include mentoring, community involvement, and effective intervention and partnering so that the difficult work of getting 

or staying on track need not happen alone must receive special attention. I believe 

in requiring individual responsibility and personal hard work, but support from others as they are able must be part of any equation that has public safety and care 

for children as its result. 

As a career official in the Justice Department, I had the opportunity to work with 

dedicated and talented colleagues, not only in the Criminal Division, but at OJJDP 

as well. I look forward with great expectation to working with the staff at OJJDP, 

some of whom I have had an opportunity to work with in the past, and all of whom 

I know are personally committed to improving on the work of the past. 

Before concluding my statement, I want to share a personal story that I hope will 

shed some light on my perspective as it pertains to two important issues that the 

Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention must be committed to addressing, they are disproportionate minority confinement and school violence. 

I grew up in a middle class neighborhood, in a home where my parents thought 

nothing of personal sacrifice for their children. While we were not wealthy, my 

brother and I lacked for nothing that was truly important. My parents were everywhere, and as quaint as it might seem to some, were always my greatest supporters 

and cheerleaders. One day in fifth grade, however, I came face to face with something that I had never before confronted even though I was the only Puerto Rican 

kid in my school and had been since we moved into that community. I encountered 

my first ethnic slur and that word had amazing power for an 11 year old. This word 

was brought home from college by the older brother of a school friend. My schoolmate thought it might be fun to try it out on me and he did. I didn’t fully understand the word or its meaning, but I knew then that the children’s refrain that 

‘‘word’s can never hurt me,’’ was horribly wrong. In one fell swoop, I became embarrassed by my heritage and I did not have the skills to deal with it. I retreated into 

my family. I did not want to go back to school. In fact, I remember wanting to see 

or hear from no one. What happened next made all the difference in the world. 

Neighbors came forward to support me. They provided a caring and protective environment, that helped in allowing my parents to put the incident into perspective 

for me. Knowing I was not alone, I went back to school. And as my presence here 

testifies, God has indeed blessed me and I have enjoyed a great deal of success and 

the support of many. While that episode passed, I have never forgotten. 

I share this with you because I want you to have confidence that I will be sensitive to these issues. Racism, bigotry, bullying, are not limited to the playground. 

If it influences sentencing or confinement decisions, makes true re-entry into the 

community impossible, threatens the creation of a safe learning environment, or facilitates or contributes to domestic violence it will be a priority for me. Such influences have no place in any justice system and offends me deeply not only because 

of my heritage but because it is offensive to any prosecutor who has devoted his career to doing justice. 

If confirmed, the opportunity to serve as Administrator holds great excitement for 

me as I believe that it is always better to prevent crime than to punish it. As a 

79

prosecutor, I sometimes got the feeling that I was playing that arcade game, Wacka-mole, where you keep pounding the mole every time he pops up, yet you know 

you can’t get them all and that they will continue to pop up. Worse, the prosecutor, 

perhaps better than anyone else, knows that you can’t fully restore what has been 

taken in the crime, the innocence of a victim, his honor, the feeling of safety, or the 

time lost with loved ones. I see this as an opportunity to focus on the problem at 

a time when much and many can be saved. 

Finally, I believe that the goal of preventing juvenile delinquency and assuring 

that those in the system find justice is everyone’s concern. It is not a partisan issue 

because it touches something too precious to us all, our Nation’s children. I look forward to working with this Committee if confirmed. Thank you, Mr. Chairman for 

the opportunity to appear before you today.

[The biographical information of Mr. Flores follows:]

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Senator HATCH. Thank you, Mr. Flores. We are honored to have 

all of you. 

Ms. Solberg, you come highly recommended. I think the two Senators and Congressman Levin really said it all about you and we 

are really pleased that you are willing to come here and work in 

this area and help us. 

Dr. Crane, we know all about you. We think you are great. 

Of course, I know Scott Burns very, very well. He is one of my 

dearest friends, he and his wife Alice, and I just know what you 

have done out there in Utah. 

Mr. Flores, we have watched you around here for a long time, so 

we have a lot of respect for you. 

Senator BIDEN [presiding]. Why don’t you go ahead and start 

questioning? I apologize for having to be absent. 

Seantor HATCH. Well, let me just ask you a question, Scott. You 

know all too well how destructive methamphetamine has been to 

our home State of Utah and to other areas of the country. You have 

prosecuted drug traffickers and manufacturers. You have worked 

hand in hand with Federal, State, and local law enforcement officials to make communities safe and more secure. I am very proud 

of the work you have done in Utah and I am convinced that you 

will do a great job at ONDCP. 

I understand that in 1987, you formed the Southern Utah Task 

Force, Utah’s first narcotics task force. This task force brought police chiefs, sheriffs, Highway Patrol, DEA, FBI and INS together 

specifically to address the issue of narcotics. Today, the task force, 

known as the Iron-Garfield Narcotics Task Force, continues to combat drug manufacturing and trafficking in southern Utah. I also 

understand that this task force was used as a model for other successful narcotics task forces that are operating all over Utah, so I 

applaud you for your foresight and your ingenuity in this. 

How will you apply the knowledge that you have gained in these 

experiences in Utah from operating this task force to your new role 

as head of State and local affairs? 

Mr. BURNS. Senator, thank you for your kind comments. I would 

like to take credit for all of that, but it was people like Bob Flowers, behind me, who was with the State Police. 

What I walked into was sheriffs that hated police chiefs, police 

chiefs that thought the DEA should be in Washington, and FBI 

agents who knew more than all of us, and trying to combat in a 

rural setting cartels in Colombia and Mexico that were highly sophisticated, got along well, and frankly were beating us up. 

I think the key in our jurisdiction, and maybe that can be applied across the country, is simply understanding what each of the 

players needs in order to get along and to work together in the best 

interests of our citizens, whether it is a sheriff that is up for election that needs a couple more lines in a press release, whether it 

is a police chief that needs a letter to the mayor, whether it is a 

DEA agent that needs a pat on the back. 

I think people are people everywhere on a State basis, on a local 

basis, on a national Federal basis, and I think it is people skills 

and trying to educate everybody that we all need to play well together, and that was the basis for our success. 

106

Senator HATCH. Thank you. As Deputy Director for State and 

Local Affairs, you will be working closely with Federal, State and 

local law enforcement officials who work together as part of the 

High-Intensity Drug Trafficking Area program, better known as 

HIDTA, to combat drug trafficking, among other things. 

This program has grown dramatically over the past few years, 

and while it has facilitated the formation of very successful cooperative efforts, HIDTA has also been criticized for becoming too bureaucratic. The success of each HIDTA is to a large extent dependent upon the ability of various State, Federal and local law enforcement officials from various States to get along and to trust one another.

You have seen how the Rocky mountain HIDTA operates and you 

have worked with all of its officers. So my question is, based on 

your experience, what do you think can be done to ensure that 

HIDTAs don’t become consumed with bureaucratic machinations 

and how will you personally prevent differences from obstructing 

the focus of individual HIDTAs? 

Mr. BURNS. Well, if fortunate enough to be confirmed, Senator, 

I think I would propose looking at each of the HIDTAs top to bottom. I have always believed that the most efficacious law enforcement is getting the money where it will do the best, to officers on 

the street, to the real-world people dealing with this issue day in 

and day out. 

I would hope to look at each of those HIDTAs on an individual 

basis and determine whether or not they are turning into bureaucracies or doing what they were intended to do, and that is bring 

together a conjoined effort of State and local and Federal officials 

to deal with this problem. 

Senator HATCH. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator BIDEN. Thank you very much. 

I have a number of questions for each of you. I will take a second 

round to do that, but let me start with you, Ms. Solberg. I should 

state at the outset that having been the fellow who authored the 

so-called drug czar legislation, when I got here 100 years ago in 

1972 as a 29-year-old kid, I swore that I was not going to commit 

the sin of all senior Senators, and that is become enamored with 

my own legislation, get to the point where something that I worked 

on very, very hard to get passed—a Democratic President didn’t 

want any part in hearing about national drug director’s idea for the 

same reason, Scott, that you indicated. 

I thought you phrased it very well. Sheriffs didn’t like local 

chiefs. The local chiefs thought DEA should stay in Washington, 

and DEA at that time was being gobbled up by the FBI, and so on 

and so forth. If you think that was a problem, it was a real problem 

getting a total of 36 Government agencies to agree that there 

should be one person in charge. 

So I apologize ahead of time and acknowledge ahead of time that 

I have a bit of a parental attitude toward this office. I think it has 

great potential. I think it has occasionally risen to the task and 

sometimes has not. 

Ms. Solberg, there are two pieces to it when I wrote it that were 

envisioned at the time. It wasn’t merely enforcement. It was that 

there be a significant portion of it relating to prevention and treatVerDate Jan 31 2003 06:54 Apr 17, 2003 Jkt 083873 PO 00000 Frm 00110 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 W:\DISC\85793 85793
107

ment, because we had up to that time not very much looked at it 

from a Federal level as either a Federal responsibility or in any holistic way, that there is a combination. 

Scott indicated in his—excuse me for calling you ‘‘Scott.’’

Mr. BURNS. No. I like that. 

Senator BIDEN. Those introducing him indicate that he has 

used—I believe the commissioner indicated he has used drug courts 

and other vehicles beyond merely the traditional law enforcement 

tools. I say proudly that was in the so-called Biden crime bill that 

we put those drug courts in, greatly resisted. Now, we are approaching over 1,000 of them nationwide, 688 or thereabouts, and 

I find them to be one of the single best programs in my State; now, 

juvenile drug courts as well, over 450 on the drawing board. 

So, again, the notion of not only identifying what we should be 

focusing on and having a coordinated effort so that no longer would 

the Coast Guard purge their computers of suspects so that the Customs people couldn’t get a hold of them and get credit for the collars—I know that sounds bizarre now, but that what was happening. 

We are now beginning in earnest to turn toward prevention. For 

the longest time here, we had the debate that prevention doesn’t 

work under any circumstances, and it is an understandable concern 

people have. I don’t know any of the people sitting in the audience—I bet there is not a single person out there who is an adult 

who can’t either name a son, daughter, husband, wife, cousin, inlaw, neighbor or fellow worker who has a son, daughter, husband, 

wife who has not encountered drugs and has not in many cases encountered the need for help. 

We have nationwide only 11.4 percent of the 12- to 17-year-olds 

who need treatment have received it. Nationwide, those between 

the ages of 18 and 25, only 8.6 percent who need treatment have 

received it, in part because it is very expensive. This is very expensive stuff, and we have learned a lot that says these 5-day, 1-week, 

30-day treatment facilities are not of much value, particularly 

when we are talking about heroin and cocaine and other drugs. 

So I am using, I realize, most of my five minutes here in an 

opening because I am going to come back and question you all, but 

I want to talk to you all about the relationship between interdiction 

and prevention and the need for coordination. 

Mr. Flores, on a separate but not unrelated area, you are about 

to head up what I again, along with Senator Hatch—I think he and 

I have probably worked longer than any two people in the Senate 

consistently on this. My mother, God love her, is 85 years old and 

she says a phrase from her generation, I think. She says a woman’s 

ultimate revenge is living long and thin. That is my 85-year-old 

mother who says that. 

Well, I think a public official’s ultimate revenge is remaining in 

office long. Well, that is a qualification that all three of us have 

met, but particularly the Senator from Utah and I, and we have 

worked very hard in the area of juvenile justice. I have a number 

of questions for you about how you think it should be functioning 

differently, if it should be, than it is now. 

108

With that, why don’t I yield now to Senator Grassley, and having 

forewarned you all I will come back to talk to you about those subjects. 

Senator GRASSLEY. Mr. Flores, congratulations. I enjoyed working with you on child prosecution legislation that we had up. Years 

ago, when you were a much younger lawyer, it is my understanding you were involved in the coalition of people that helped 

us federalize the Ferber Act. 

Mr. FLORES. Thank you very much, Senator, for your work in 

this area. 

Senator GRASSLEY. Ms. Solberg, do you currently hold a security 

clearance? 

Ms. SOLBERG. I do not know that. I have completed my FBI work 

and I believe, if I am confirmed, that that will be forthcoming. 

Senator GRASSLEY. Okay, so you don’t have one now. Do you 

know if there is one in the works for you to get a security clearance? 

Ms. SOLBERG. I don’t know that, Senator. 

Senator GRASSLEY. That is okay. Now, you have been nominated 

to fill the post of deputy in a Cabinet-level agency. This would be 

similar to Deputy Secretary of Agriculture or Deputy Attorney General. 

When you interviewed for the post of deputy director, did anyone 

at that time indicate to you that the post involved these over-arching responsibilities? 

Ms. SOLBERG. No, they did not. 

Senator GRASSLEY. At the time of your nomination or at any 

point thereafter, did you indicate that for personal reasons you intended to spend only part of the work week in Washington? And 

while answering that question, would you please detail what the 

administration agreed to and specifics about your work schedule 

and the location of your duties? 

Ms. SOLBERG. I agreed when I was asked to accept this nomination to put in a 40-hour-plus week, in other words full-time, in 

Washington. I asked for an alternative work schedule, when necessary, because I am an only child of parents who are 86 and 90. 

I felt that their care was prevention at its very best, and my family 

is vital to me. 

I asked for that alternative work schedule, saying that, first of 

all, I would put a minimum of 40 hours in Washington, probably 

more, and also that I was totally wired at home with fax, computer, 

and everything necessary. And although I might be in a different 

area, I would be one hundred percent available on those days when 

I would be required to be in Michigan to care for my family. 

Senator GRASSLEY. And the administration agreed to that? 

Ms. SOLBERG. I was nominated, Senator. 

Senator GRASSLEY. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions. 

Senator BIDEN. Thank you very much. 

Senator Hatch? 

Senator HATCH. I am going to rely on you, Mr. Chairman, to ask 

the questions. I will just be happy to have you take over. 

Let me just say this: I have been on this committee ever since 

I have been in Congress and there is nobody in the whole Congress 

109

who has done more in these areas than Senator Biden. I don’t 

mean to embarrass him, but I——

Senator GRASSLEY. He is difficult to live with. You are making 

it more difficult. [Laughter.] 

Senator HATCH. Well, I didn’t comment on that. I agree with 

that. 

Senator BIDEN. Well, thank you very much, Senator. 

Senator HATCH. But I have to say that he does work very hard 

in this area. He himself has had experience before he came to the 

Senate in these areas and he takes it very seriously. I think he is 

going to, as I know I will, appreciate the work that the four of you 

will be doing. But I would just as soon have Senator Biden ask the 

questions. 

Senator BIDEN. Thank you very much. 

Ms. Solberg, let me begin with you. During your tenure as head 

of the Troy coalition, you have had great success in reducing the 

use among kids in your community of marijuana. It seems to me 

that if we want to achieve the President’s goal of reducing drug use 

by 25 percent over the next 5 years, we have to replicate the kinds 

of things you have done in your community throughout the country. 

What kinds of programs would you like to see developed across 

this country to prevent drug use in the first place? Do you have 

any ideas along those lines? 

Ms. SOLBERG. Well, Senator, I believe that substance abuse 

starts in the local community and that the answer lies first and 

foremost in the community. It is by conducting multiple strategies 

over every sector of the community that we change behavior. 

I have always believed that you can’t change youth behavior 

until you first address adult behavior, and so often prevention programs have only targeted young people. We need to change communities, we need to change attitudes, we need to change behavior. 

Senator BIDEN. How do you do that, Mary Ann? Give me an example. 

Since I am chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, I always joke that the people that drive me the craziest are the State 

Department nominees because they speak State Department-eze, 

which means they don’t speak English, they don’t speak the American language. 

One of the things I would like to know, if you can, and you may 

not be able to—these are tough questions—if you can be specific, 

give me anecdotal kinds of evidence as to how do you—for example, 

I fully concur that you have to get adults involved. We always 

think we just start with the kids. 

When I do the DARE programs, I make sure I have all the parents show up of the students because just educating the parents on 

things to look for—I mean, they see a pacifier on the kid’s end 

table when the kid is 13 years old and they should realize that kid 

is using Ecstasy. They wonder what the pacifier and the little lanyard around the neck is all about, so we don’t educate parents very 

well. 

We went through a period where when you were working on the 

reduction of marijuana, you would have parents of my generation, 

the so-called baby-boom generation, many of whom experimented 

110

with marijuana, who would say, well, at least my kid is not using 

cocaine. It was not okay, but it was, you know, gee, I am thankful 

that that is the case, or at least they are just drinking and they 

are not using drugs. 

In fact, as you well know, the marijuana that—I used to say that 

the marijuana that we have been dealing with the last 10 years—

it is like it ain’t your father’s Oldsmobile; this is a very, very different marijuana. It is over 10 times as potent. Its effect on brain 

cells and long-term impacts are significantly greater than any 

marijuana that somebody smoked at Woodstock in the late 1960s. 

So I understand generically that you have got to get parents or 

adults more informed, but what do you mean by getting them involved? Give me an example. 

Ms. SOLBERG. Well, I will give you a great example of parenting. 

It is very difficult to educate parents. School districts have training 

and only the best parents show up, so we use multiple strategies. 

We go into the workplace and make sure that there are paycheck 

stuffers that give the signs and symptoms of adolescent drug 

abuse. We make sure that there are posters and brown-bag training in the workplace. 

We work with the pharmacies so that when a senior citizen picks 

up a prescription, there is a statement on how to be a good grandparent, how to protect against drug abuse. We work with the physicians. When a parent comes for a pre-school physical, the physician 

says now is the time to start talking with your children about alcohol, now is the time to watch for the signs and symptoms of adolescent abuse. 

So we work across every sector to actually change the dynamics, 

to change the way business is done. It is very, very effective because we are changing the norm in the community from one of 

abuse to one of prevention. 

Senator BIDEN. Now, you and I both know how hard it is to 

change the norm. I authored a bill called the Violence Against 

Women Act, and because my State is small I was able to do what 

legislators aren’t supposed to do. I was able to have a hands-on experience in molding the use of the monies from that Act in my 

home State. 

I was able to get, for example, all the emergency rooms in the 

State—there are not that many in a small State like mine; it is the 

size of a congressional district—get them together and get them to 

agree, with monies we provided, to train intake physicians in emergency rooms to recognize domestic abuse and be willing to file the 

reports. I found that when you are able to talk to all the doctors 

and get them all in one room, you can do something. 

One of the reasons I am asking these questions is you are sort 

of head of the field in your home county. Doctors doing the physical 

before school seem to me to be an incredibly opportune moment to 

educate the parent and the child, and even test on occasion at that 

moment. 

But the fact of the matter is most doctors don’t know much about 

this. Most doctors, in my experience, don’t know much about it. 

They don’t want to know about it, they don’t want to pay attention 

to it. So how do you on a national basis, in your new capacity—

for example, let’s just focus on doctors for a minute. How would you 

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go about trying to, in a sense, educate the medical profession to not 

only what to look for, but their responsibility, their civic responsibility in participating in this? 

Ms. SOLBERG. I will walk you through what we did in a small 

community. I think it translates beautifully. We began by educating, by talking one on one with physicians. We ended by having 

a family practice physician as the president of one of our coalitions. 

We then went on to the county level and involved the Oakland 

County Medical Society and educated and trained. They came in 

and weighed in on public policy. What is harmful for our young 

people? 

We then went to the State level to work with the medical society, 

and we involved at each step of the way physicians through education, through practical examples. And because we are results-oriented, because we are data-driven, we showed them the numbers, 

we showed them what we had achieved, and we clearly illustrated 

their role in this process. 

Senator BIDEN. Now, would you to the AMA, for example, in your 

new capacity? Would that be something you would have in mind? 

Ms. SOLBERG. I would love to be able to. I have not taken the 

position yet and I have not heard what Director Walters has in 

store, but it is absolutely one of the things that I think would be 

very, very effective to bring physicians nationwide into the prevention field. 

Senator BIDEN. Well, this was not a set-up question, but last 

week I introduced a bill to train doctors and other health care professionals in terms of continuing medical education. You know how 

we lawyers and doctors go back and we have continuing education 

requirements, at least in most States, I believe, if not all, and continue to be updated on the newest changes. As Sander may know, 

we do that as lawyers. I would like you, when you are confirmed, 

to take a look at that for me, if you will. It was endorsed by your 

soon-to-be boss, Mr. Walters. 

Let me conclude by just saying to you that I think that some of 

the criticism of your nomination is that you have not had national 

experience, that you have not run a large agency, that you are not 

a nationally-known name, et cetera. But I think you are a perfect 

complement to a man whose background has been on the enforcement side and whose interest has been on the enforcement side and 

on the interdiction side of the equation. 

I think you provide a genuine balance and I think if anything 

has been missing—and we have had great people in that office in 

all administrations, but if anything has been missing, it has been 

the direct connect, the practical hands-on connection between the 

localities and how they implement these programs and initiatives 

and what they generate spontaneously and the national strategy. 

So I look forward to you being in that position. But understand—

I know you do—that we take it very seriously. Accountability is a 

matter of importance to us, and one of the things I hope you will 

do is as you, in a sense, experiment at a national level with your 

success at the local level—you will find many of them will not work 

nationally. Every community is different and it is much harder to 

do it nationally than it is locally. 

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But I hope you will be candid with us when we call your before 

this committee and acknowledge frankly what works and what 

doesn’t work. The only thing we care about is not that everything 

you try works, but that everything that doesn’t work you are honest enough to tell us. 

As you well know, public support for the initiatives relating particularly to treatment and prevention are hard-fought battles, as 

Congressman Levin can tell you, because they are the least popular. The first thing is arrest them and hang them. We usually get 

money for that, we usually get support for that. 

The main reason why people are skeptical about our treatment 

program and skeptical about our prevention programs occasionally 

is that they don’t think they work. They do work, but they don’t 

think they work. For the longest time, for example, when we spent 

a lot of money in this prevention field, we worked with educators. 

What we did was we had every school district in the country at 

the beginning of a school year hand out pamphlets, which was 

about as useful an exercise of money as us carrying coals to Newcastle. I mean, it was a waste of money, in my view. It was a typical bureaucratic response to a national program. 

So we are looking for some innovation from you. We don’t expect 

you to reinvent the wheel, but the reason why people are prepared 

to take a chance on a local woman who did a great job is because 

of that very thing, a local woman did a great job. And we expect 

that you will not be afraid to attempt to innovate. Don’t be intimidated in this new job. 

Your daughter is shaking her head. Don’t worry, mom is never 

intimidated. [Laughter.] 

Senator BIDEN. But don’t be intimidated by this. 

Senator HATCH. Mr. Chairman, I have to necessarily leave. 

Senator BIDEN. Please proceed. 

Senator HATCH. No. I just want to apologize for having to leave, 

but I have every confidence in all of you. 

I would just like to put in the record, if I could, Mr. Chairman—

Speaker Hastert’s Task Force for a Drug-Free America has written 

a letter in support of these nominees and I would like that to be 

included in the record. 

Senator BIDEN. It will be part of the record. 

Also, Senator Grassley asked that his opening statement be put 

in the record.

Senator HATCH. I also want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for 

holding these hearings and for moving these nominees along. We 

need to get these positions filled and if we can work to get them 

on the agenda and get them out, I would sure appreciate it. 

Senator BIDEN. Thank you very much. Thank you for the nice 

compliments. 

I only have a few more minutes with you all, if you don’t mind. 

Dr. Crane, you have had a long service to your country, and also 

an interesting and varied background coming into this job. I would 

like to talk with you about Colombia for a minute. 

Mr. CRANE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BIDEN. I will state at the outset I am a close personal friend 

of President Pastrana, whom I speak to literally regularly. He calls 

me at home because of my interest in his country and my interest 

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in the drug problem and Plan Colombia. He is in a bit of a bind 

right now. Things are pretty tough down there. 

As the FARC’s violent attacks have increased and he has ended 

the peace process, this country which we care about, the oldest democracy in the hemisphere, not only because it is a source of nearly 

all the cocaine in this country and the majority of the heroin on 

the East Coast, including incredibly pure heroin that is literally 

killing kids in my home State of Delaware, but also because Colombia is an ally and I can’t picture a secure Latin America and South 

America with this big country essentially at the head of it becoming a narco-state—I just can’t envision how this hemisphere works 

very well that being the case, and I think that is the alternative 

we are facing here, a narco-state. As you know, the FARC, as well 

as the paramilitaries, have engaged in the trade. They have found 

it very lucrative, as well, and for their own political purposes. 

Now, in the position to which you have been nominated, you will 

be called upon to advise the drug czar on how we should proceed 

in Colombia. First of all, are you prepared to tell us what your 

views are on Plan Colombia, as it is now in place? Have you had 

a chance to become familiar with it? Do you have a notion of anything about it? 

Mr. CRANE. As you might recall—I think if I am confirmed I 

would be very honored to continue to advise you. I know in 1998 

I testified before you before on the Western Hemisphere Drug 

Elimination Act. 

It is very true that Colombia is a state in deep peril, financed 

primarily by drugs, to many terrorists. So it is a very serious situation. I have made many trips to Colombia, have done lots of analysis and attempted to look at how could we make these plans work 

as best as possible. So I have made recommendations to Admiral 

Loy and others about complementary programs to ensure that the 

current Plan Colombia will work as planned. 

So I believe I have a wealth of experience. Ambassador Patterson 

wants me to come down as soon as I am confirmed, if I am confirmed, to begin to meet with them right away. The issues there 

are very complex, but what I believe has to be done is we have to 

do more than just try to eradicate the coca plants. As you know, 

in the last year there has been increasing eradication. 

We have to get to a point there where we can actually severely 

damage that business. If we do just a little bit at a time, it probably won’t work. So I will be an advocate of making sure that that 

plan works as best as envisioned. 

Senator BIDEN. Now, you are talking like a State Department 

guy again. Tell me what you mean specifically, not generically, that 

we have to do our best. 

Mr. CRANE. Well, I think the first thing that we recommended 

was that you have to get in and interdict certain aspects of it because what has happened now——

Senator BIDEN. What aspects? 

Mr. CRANE. Primarily the land transportation. If you look at the 

current base prices in Colombia, they have risen with the about 40-

percent eradication that occurred this last year. Now, not all the 

equipment is there. If you do that, if the prices rise a lot, then this 

encourages them to plant more. 

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So my personal observation this year is there is a very large 

amount of new cultivation, attempting to counter Plan Colombia. 

Now, if we can do a better job, for example, interdicting——

Senator BIDEN. Does price rise mean we are having success in 

limiting supply? 

Mr. CRANE. It does, but the system then is a pernicious system 

and it attempts to counter you by, if the price goes up, then whoever you don’t eradicate makes more money on his crop. 

Two years ago, I worked with UN officials and we do get current 

prices out of the areas in Colombia now. I just got recent data. My 

team has been in Colombia. Two weeks ago, they were in there for 

two weeks looking at the research aspects of this. 

So one of the aspects that we argued should be done is if we 

could interdict the cocaine base coming out of these agricultural 

areas and drive the price down, this would be helpful. 

Senator BIDEN. How would interdicting drive the price down? I 

am not arguing with you about the need to interdict. 

Mr. CRANE. What happens is the base price goes up at the cocaine processing lab, which for many of them are in the cities, and 

the base price goes down at the farm gate. If you could drive the 

base price down to levels below, say, $600, $550—it is right now 

about $1,050—then there becomes a lot less profit in the commodity. So that is one aspect. 

But there is a second aspect of any police program, and I know 

the interdiction coordinator has put together such a concept. You 

also want to drive up their costs for precursor chemicals, say gasoline and potassium permangenate and other chemicals like that. In 

addition to that, we are looking at an application to use the assets 

we already have down there for eradication more effectively. So all 

of these are ways that I think could improve the chance for Plan 

Colombia to deliver the desired result. 

Senator BIDEN. What about the notion of crop substitution or 

moving folks out of the business into other businesses? Most people 

argue that a significant number of the growers are ordinary peasants involved in agriculture who are looking for a crop in which 

they can make a living. They are not the ones who make the big 

numbers. 

Now, granted, these large jungles that are being cleared and 

large numbers of hectares being planted are more as a consequence 

of an organized and cartel-driven kind of operation. So it is one 

thing to eradicate those, and that is why we provided the helicopters and that is why we did the training of the Colombian military. 

But what about the folks outside of that valley, outside of that 

region? What is the administration, if you know, or what are you 

recommending, if you are, as to how to move people into a different 

line of work, in effect? You talk crop substitution. Is that a rational 

approach, does it hold any promise, or is it basically a non-starter 

from your perspective? 

Mr. CRANE. From my research perspective, it is possible to do 

that, but again it is very important that you not have cocaine base 

and leaf at extremely high prices where no other crops have any 

chance at all. But there is a second aspect; we have security problems in many of these areas, and so besides providing for economic 

115

assistance, you also have to provide for the man’s basic right to life 

and not having a barrel of a gun pointed at him telling him to grow 

coca. 

So we have a very difficult problem in Colombia. As you know, 

there were many growers packs that were into self-eradicating. So 

I would say that if I am confirmed, one of the things we are going 

to look at it is did they actually do that, and so I would have to 

get back to you, I think, and look and see how those things worked 

out because right now that will happen this summer. 

Senator BIDEN. What is the greatest weakness of Plan Colombia 

right now as you see it? 

Mr. CRANE. In my opinion, probably what I call incrementalism. 

We did just a little bit each time. So if you just do a little bit, get 

a couple planes every year, I don’t think that will work. I think 

what we will have is a very large coca agriculture and you will be 

able to do that. 

So in my view, and I have advocated this for several years, we 

need to get on with the program and force a radical—not force a 

radical, but cause a radical shift in the coca economy. So if we went 

along and just did a little bit each year, I don’t think that will 

work, so I wouldn’t be an advocate of that. 

Senator BIDEN. As you probably know, the provision of U.S. intelligence for air interdiction to the governments of Peru and Colombia have been suspended since the fatal accident last spring in 

which a plane carrying U.S. missionaries was erroneously shot 

down after being suspected of carrying drugs. As I understand it, 

the administration is still reviewing whether the program should 

be resumed. 

Do you have any views on whether the program should be resumed? 

Mr. CRANE. If I may, I would like to put in context the conditions 

under which you do these types of operations. If you look at the 

history, in 1982 1,100 airplanes landed in Florida with cocaine on 

them. With military advice, the Customs Service, and so on, we 

have been able to stop most of the air trafficking, and the air trafficking is a major threat because it is the least costly way to move 

illegal drugs surreptitiously because of the issues of security. 

If you look at the current air situation, which I have just done, 

pretty much most of the drugs are not moved across the Caribbean 

anymore by air; it is mostly surface. If you look in Colombia, there 

are certainly a lot of questions about we have deployed large-sensor 

systems. So from that point of view, it is a very important program, 

if they attempt to use aircraft widely, to have the capability to stop 

them. 

Now, does that mean that you only have to have a shoot-down 

law? The answer is no. The United States did not do that over the 

Caribbean. However, it requires a large amount of resources to be 

applied if we were to go that route. So in my opinion, in the remote 

areas of the Amazon, if we have large narco or terrorist aircraft activity, it may be necessary to take a very serious look at reinstituting that program as soon as possible. 

Senator BIDEN. I happen to agree with you. 

Scott, let me turn to you if I may. You know the numbers, but 

for the record let me just repeat a few statistics. As I said earlier, 

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kids in rural areas are more likely than kids in large urban areas 

to use certain kinds of drugs, including methamphetamine and cocaine. 

A recent CASA study showed that 8th-graders in rural America 

are 104 percent more likely than those living in urban centers to 

use amphetamines generally, including methamphetamine. Eightythree percent are more likely to use crack cocaine, 50 percent are 

more likely to use powdered cocaine, and 34 percent are more likely to smoke marijuana. The study goes on to say rural communities 

are woefully unprepared to provide treatment to the growing number of people becoming addicted. 

This will come on your watch, Mary Ann: In 1993—this is the 

last statistic I am aware of—55 percent of the 3,075 counties in the 

United States had no practicing psychologists, psychiatrists, or social workers. And all these counties, every one, was a rural county. 

Now, I come from a State that although it is in the midst of the 

North Atlantic States, we found that with the drug cartels operating very successfully in Philadelphia, because of I–95, the major 

north-south freeway, and because of the Port of Philadelphia and 

easy transit from New York and the Port of New York, as we put 

pressure on drug cartels and organized units of drug crime in 

Philadelphia, for example, it became economically sound for these 

dealers to go to areas where there was less enforcement, less capability, and not as many people. But if you hit a broad enough area, 

it was very successful. 

So in rural Delaware, if you have ever read Michener’s book 

Chesapeake, you could understand my little State. Two-thirds of 

the State has been isolated from the commerce and intercourse of 

the States because it literally is that peninsula that comes down 

from the Delaware River on this side, if you look at a map, and the 

Chesapeake Bay on the other side, and it is called the Delmarva 

peninsula. Delaware, Maryland and Virginia are on that peninsula. 

It has become quite a haven for drug organizations because of so 

many migrant workers and because we are an agricultural State. 

You have motorcycle gangs and you have the Cripps and the 

Bloods, who long ago found the beauty of Utah. 

I remember the statistic a couple of years ago—I used to do this 

every single day; I don’t anymore, but there were more drive-by 

shootings in Salt Lake City than there were in any other major city 

in America. I think that statistic is correct. I am prepared to be 

corrected if I am wrong, but it is astounding that the beautiful city 

of Salt Lake in the far West found itself in that position. 

So you are aware of all these things. In your capacity as the guy 

who is going to be out there doing the job that a former Delawarean did, I might add, what are you going to do? What are some 

of the ideas you have as to how to energize your office, with limited 

resources, unfortunately? 

I know none of you can comment on this. I am sure every one 

of you fully agrees with the President’s budget. I don’t. He has 

drastically cut law enforcement now in the name of homeland defense. He says he has made it up other places, but the bottom line 

is, Commissioner, you are going to have fewer cops. 

Mark my words. I predict to you within five years you are going 

to have 20 percent fewer—even with prosperity in Salt Lake, 20 

117

percent fewer cops because the Biden crime bill is no longer going 

to be funded, the COPS program. You are going to have fewer resources available to you in local law enforcement. Berne grants are 

being eliminated or combined with other grants. So there is a net 

40-percent reduction in help for local law enforcement. 

So what are you going to do, Scott? I mean, how are you going 

to respond to the concerns of these local officials, who I find in my 

State, maybe again because it is so small and I have been so deeply 

personally—by the way, not that I am a good guy. I don’t mean 

that, but when you have one person from the Federal side of this 

who happens to have jurisdiction over these subjects willing to sit 

down with the local chiefs and the local sheriffs and the local commissioners and bring in the regional DEA guy, because he can’t say 

no to you, and bring in the regional FBI guy or woman, it gets results. And the interesting thing is there is significant harmony. I 

mean, it really is working, like the commissioner found. 

So what do you do? That is a very broad question, but you have 

vast experience here. What are you going to be looking for? What 

are you going to be focusing on, given the range you need to do 

your job in your new capacity? 

Mr. BURNS. Senator, if every governor and every mayor or even 

half of the council people or commissioners or sheriffs understood 

and appreciated the issues half as much as you do, I think we 

would be halfway home. 

Senator BIDEN. In fairness to them, they have got a lot of other 

things to focus on. 

Mr. BURNS. I understand, but this, in my humble opinion, is 

something that we all need to make a priority and we all need to 

focus on. And I won’t speak State Department-eze; we are getting 

our butts kicked. 

I understand that there will be diminishment in funds, in Berne 

grant monies and COPS monies, which we have all appreciated, 

but in my county we did it without any HIDTA money, and we did 

it because maybe it was self-defense. And we took it a step further 

and took the money that we forfeited from the dealers, and not a 

marijuana cigarette and we forfeited a Mercedes Benz. I am talking 

about 4 and 5 and 6 and 800 pounds of marijuana and 500 kilos 

cocaine, and taking a house that was a distribution center. 

We put that money in a fund and we funded DARE, and we have 

one of the most comprehensive DARE programs in the country 

right there in little southern Utah. So I think people can do things 

without money and without the Federal Government standing by 

to tell us how we do it. But it takes initiative and it takes guts and 

it takes people wanting to understand the issues because it is a 

dirty world. 

You understand about heroin coming from Pennsylvania to your 

State. You understand about the methamphetamine problem on 

the West Coast. You understand about baby binkies and water in 

a remote area. Most Americans, Senator, with all due respect, have 

no idea what you are talking about, and I guess part of what my 

job will be is to go to those localities to talk to them about the 

issues. 

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I will go to Delaware. I would be more than happy if you would 

allow me to work on that particular issue, if I am fortunate enough 

to be confirmed. 

Senator BIDEN. One of the things I have found, and I want to 

know what your experience in this is, having been a local official, 

is that it is not that localities lack capability. They tend to lack resources and they tend to lack expertise, and they tend to be almost 

not afraid in the sense of personal courage, but afraid in terms of 

thinking that maybe what they think they know is not as simple 

and clear as they have concluded it is; that there must be something more complicated. 

So they tend to be reluctant to put their arms around it for fear 

that they may be missing something. They remind me sort of the 

freshman who shows up in a philosophy class with a great idea. It 

may be original, but because he or she hasn’t read it somewhere, 

they assume it mustn’t be significant. 

So I have found on a much more limited basis as I have gone 

around the country, particularly selling this and the Violence 

Against Women Act, that when you actually provide a model for 

local officials, they are hungry to try to replicate it. 

And it doesn’t have to be a single model. For example, we found 

in the case of violence against women that there are four places 

where women who are victimized lose their resolve to proceed 

against their attacker, whether it is their husband, significant 

other, or someone they work with. 

Strangely enough, one of those places is when they show up—

and it varies from State to State—at, say, the family court in the 

State of Delaware to pursue their complaint. They walk up to an 

intake officer and the intake officer says, now, what was it; right 

in front of everybody, what was it? When did he hit you? Well, I 

don’t see any bruises. 

That is the place the woman turns and walks away, or when she 

goes to court and the court is insensitive enough to put her and the 

abuser in the same room as they are waiting to go into the courtroom, or when you have cross-examination or direct examination by 

the prosecutor and he does not place his physical body between eye 

contact of the accused and the accuser, because that is when 

women believe that no one is going to be with them as that person 

who is 6′2′′, 210 pounds, is staring at her, and she is 5′4′′ and 112 

pounds and she knows if he doesn’t go to jail, he is coming back. 

They are very practical things. 

I implore you to not decide on a single package, but try very hard 

to—they are telling me I am supposed to slow this up, which I am 

not going to do because I pay little attention to my staff because 

they are brighter than I am. 

As I said, I have a deep interest in this. When we still have statistics out of Colombia showing that 80 percent—remember this, 80 

percent of every single solitary prisoner in America, State, county, 

local and Federal, either is an abuser of and/or addicted to alcohol 

or an illicit drug, and/or is arrested or is in there because they 

were trafficking in those substances—80 percent. 

With all the success we have had with violent crime in America 

under the crime bill and other factors, imagine if you could wave 

a wand and God could change very single American so that their 

119

brain could no longer respond to the stimuli of alcohol or drugs. 

Imagine what would happen in America. It would be a transforming experience. 

My deceased wife, God love her, used to say the greatest and 

worst gift God gave to mankind is free will. Well, we have to figure 

out how to help these rural communities, and I think, Scott, it is 

the single most glaring and urgent unmet need that we have in 

this area because the traffickers have found—you know, it is like 

punching a pillow. You know, we crack down in the urban centers. 

Even if we affect interdiction significantly, which I strongly support 

as an important aspect of this, it pops up where there is the least 

resistance. 

As you well know, one of the objectives we have all had in law 

enforcement is to at least raise the collateral cost of doing business 

in this business. So I hope you will not lose your practical sense. 

This is not rocket science. Medical cures are equivalent to rocket 

science because they are above my pay grade, but this is not, and 

I hope you will keep your enthusiasm and be willing to come up 

with some practical programmatic—not programmatic—let me conclude with this. 

I would hope that as you go around the country, you do more 

than—although it is important to do this—do more than listen. It 

is presumptuous to say that as a Federal official. It is important 

to listen, but we have been listening now for 20 years. We pretty 

well know what people are saying. 

What I find people hungry for is very, very basic things, very 

basic, bite-size, understandable, applicable ideas that they can use. 

So I hope you go with a little bit of a smorgasbord and say this 

is what worked in Lynnfield, Massachusetts, this is what worked 

in Moab, Utah, this is what works over here. I don’t know what 

works best for you, but let me tell you how we do these things, very 

practical things. People are hungry for the help, hungry for it. 

You know, I used to have a friend and he was a great, great basketball player. He played on that NIT team at Providence—it 

shows you how old I am—in 1964 with Riordan and Walker and 

guys who went on to play in the pros and were all-pros. His name 

was Pete McLaughlin, and Pete would never argue that his greatest asset was his academic skills. He was a bright guy, but it was 

not the most important thing to him. 

But Pete had an expression that I wish every academically-accomplished person understood fully. He used to say, Joe, you have 

got to know how to know, you have got to know how to know. A 

lot of local officials are incredibly talented, but they don’t know 

how to know, and I hope you will go with a little bit of a menu 

for them to give them some advice. 

Mr. BURNS. I will give it my best, Senator. 

Senator BIDEN. I have no doubt about that. 

I am sorry to keep you all so long, but as I said, I guess some 

would suggest it hasn’t been all that successful, but I have spent 

26 of the 28 years of my life working on this, and actually 32, 

counting as a local official, and there is nothing that is more important to me, including the Office of Juvenile Justice. 

Mr. Flores, I appreciate, and I mean this sincerely, your work in 

the past. I appreciate the fact that you have felt during the last 

120

administration that there was not enough time and attention 

placed to dealing with Internet porn and other things that caused 

you to resign. 

I don’t think you will, but just to state it up front, I hope you 

approach your new job with a results-oriented notion rather than 

a value content idea; that you don’t walk in with an ideological disposition as to how to handle all matters. I hope you have, and I 

believe you do, an open mind. 

You are about to take over an office that has been sort of a stepchild for a while, although we have significantly increased the 

budget over the years when I was chairman and when Senator 

Hatch was chairman. Senator Hatch and I have worked very hard 

to reauthorize the Juvenile Justice Act and update it and make it, 

we think, better, and we have been allies in that effort. 

It has been very difficult to get it done. We have passed it a couple of times. It got over to the House. Then the House has subsequently passed one that can’t get by here. So we are kind of in a 

conundrum right now in terms of whether we initiate a new, improved authorization for your department or whether we try to just 

go along with what the law has been or we just limp along year 

to year in the authorization by funding through appropriations. I 

realize that is Washington jargon that maybe only you understand, 

having worked here. 

One of the questions I want to ask you to get a sense—I don’t 

expect any academic treatise in response to this, although you are 

fully capable of it—to get a sense from my perspective, as they say, 

to use the vernacular, of where you are coming from on these 

issues. 

Juvenile crime has plummeted over the past decade. The irony 

is that it has plummeted. From 1991 to 2000, the number of persons under the age of 18 years old arrested for murder dropped 65 

percent. I am the guy who wrote the reports in the 1980s about the 

skyrocketing juvenile murder rate in the United States, juveniles 

committing murder. Even though I take some pride in having authored the major crime bills from 1988 on, I am surprised at the 

drop, as to how far it has dropped. 

Rape is down 26 percent, robbery 29 percent, and this all happened at a time when the juvenile justice experts and demographers told us we were likely to see a rise, because there was an 

8-percent increase in the juvenile population between 1993 and 

1999. As you know, that is when the hormones kick in. That is the 

age where you think you are invincible, that you will never be 

caught. So in a sense, the statistics belie the predictions and the 

increase in juvenile population. 

What do you think is most responsible for this, or how do you 

explain that phenomenon—a significant decrease, notwithstanding 

an increase in the juvenile populations? I used to go through this 

thing during the 1970s and 1980s talking about how the most violent criminals in our society—in the 1960s—don’t hold me to the 

exact numbers, but something like 18 years, 6 months of age, on 

average. Then it dropped down to 17-something, and it dropped 

down to 15 years and 6 months or something, the most violent of 

all criminals, not juvenile criminals, criminals. 

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Now, that trend seems to have not—it has been reversed in spite 

of increases in juvenile population. To what do you attribute it? 

Mr. FLORES. Senator, I think that there is probably not any one 

thing that is responsible for any of these trends. I think that oftentimes the temptation is to reach out and grab a hold of one thing 

or to think that any particular program that is being supported or 

run is in large part responsible for any one particular aspect. 

Senator BIDEN. I agree with that. 

Mr. FLORES. I have, in deference to the Senate process, not had 

an opportunity to immerse myself in much of the specific work of 

the Office of Juvenile Justice. But I have had a chance both during 

my time at the Justice Department in the Criminal Division, as 

well as during the past four years, to take a look at a number of 

societal issues that continue to affect, I think, the numbers. 

While I am very pleased about the change in direction in terms 

of the numbers of juveniles in the system or at risk of going into 

the system, I think about how horrible it has got to be as a parent 

to watch my child go into the system. And it would be very small 

solace indeed for someone to say, well, your son is part of that 

smaller percentage. 

Senator BIDEN. I have that. I don’t need a lecture about that. I 

mean, I would not take a back seat to anyone in my empathy for 

those whose children get caught up in the system and get picked 

up by the system. 

The question is, as a policymaker, I am only able to go on a policy level deal with and initiate or participate in those programs 

that have the best chance of keeping the most children out of that 

system, out of that stream of crime and drugs. 

On the personal side, I, like you, suspect that I have counseled 

and met with and have empathized with and personally intervened 

on behalf of more families or as many families as any man or 

woman who does this on anything other than a full-time job as a 

counselor. So I am not looking for your concern about those who 

are caught in the system. I am trying to get a sense of what you 

understand to be the reason why it has changed. 

My dad, God love him, is in the hospital. He is 86 years old and 

he has a lot of wisdom, and my dad says all the time, Joe, we always fail to learn our lessons from our victories; we learn the 

wrong lessons from our victories. Well, there have been some small 

victories here and unless we figure out why this occurred, we don’t 

know what to do from here on. Otherwise, the past is not a guide 

to take us to the future. 

This may just be pure happenstance, and I am not being facetious. I mean, if you had an 8-percent decrease in the juvenile population over the last 10 years, I would say to you as someone who 

has immersed himself in this for three decades trying to learn as 

much as I can—without exaggeration, I have held more hearings 

on this subject with experts than any person who serves or has 

ever served in the United States Congress and I still don’t fully understand it. I only come away with certain basic things I know for 

certain. 

One is there are four corners, three cops on three of the corners, 

not one on the other, and if a crime is going to be committed at 

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an intersection, it is most likely to be committed where the cop is 

not. 

Second, when you get to be 35 years old, it is hard to jump chain 

link fences when you are being chased by cops. [Laughter.] 

I mean this literally, literally literally. There are only certain 

things we really know, and so what I am trying to get at is you 

are going to head up a department that is tasked to deal with the 

single most important intersection in the criminal justice system. 

We know and you know from your great experience that if a kid 

gets through his or her teen years without any interface with the 

law, on the wrong side of it, the prospects of that person being 

caught up in drugs or the criminal justice system down the road 

are infinitesimally smaller than a child who has even been picked 

up for truancy. We know that truancy is the single biggest sign as 

to whether or not there will be a criminal record that a child will 

have and the road map to delinquency. 

We know that cigarette use is the single best sign to know 

whether or not someone is more likely to be addicted to a controlled 

substance. A kid who has never smoked a cigarette—what is the 

number—is one-fifth or one-tenth as likely to ever use a controlled 

substance as someone who has smoked a cigarette. 

So there are certain basic things we know, and I don’t have the 

answer, but I would like to know what your answer is. If you would 

like to think about it before we bring your confirmation up for a 

vote, I am happy to wait, but I would just like you to muse with 

me about why do you think these numbers are down. Are the statistics being kept differently? 

When we did the violence against women stuff, we found, to be 

totally honest about it, that the rate against violence against 

women. I had done a study, and actually I used the Bureau of Justice Statistics. From 1978 or thereabouts, to 1988, or 1976 to 1986, 

violent crime against women in America went up over 100 percent, 

those between the ages of 18 and 30. But violent crime in the same 

time went down for men in that age. 

I thought I knew all there was to know about violence. I thought 

violence was the ultimate equal opportunity employer, but it 

turned out not to be so we started focusing on why. One of the reasons it went up against women is women had more support from 

other women and they began to report crimes more than they did 

before. Is there less reporting? 

I mean, what does your gut tell you, based on your background, 

as to why these numbers went down? 

Mr. FLORES. Senator, my gut and my observation tells me that 

I think these numbers go down because I think we have spent 

more and done a better job at early intervention. I think that we 

have now, and OJJDP currently operates a number of programs 

which focus on early intervention, the personal investment of adult 

lives into children’s lives, so that things like mentoring, things like 

the proper joinder between educational efforts along the lines with 

teaching proper behavior—the Boys and Girls Clubs, in fact—I was 

on their Web site just recently and I noticed that they are pushing 

that kind of a model where they are trying to figure out how do 

we take those new educational responsibilities and standards and 

123

how do we use our after-school programs, how do we use the resources we have. 

You raised earlier today an issue of limited funds and budget 

issues, but I would like to, I guess, echo the comments that were 

made that there is no substitute, I think, for the investment of 

adult lives into the lives of children. 

I mean, I have heard it said, you know, very few husbands could 

ever afford to pay their wives what they are worth if they had to 

actually contract out for the work because they do so much that is 

not reflected——

Senator BIDEN. If you contracted it out, she would leave you. I 

mean, she could get much better pay. [Laughter.] 

Mr. FLORES. Because of the fact that one volunteer can provide 

resources, help, support for a child, as people provided for me during my lifetime, I think that makes a difference. I think that we 

have really focused for——

Senator BIDEN. But doesn’t that run counter to everything that 

the statistics show? The statistics show during this same 10-year 

period that fewer parents were married, fewer nuclear families, 

fewer parents taking the responsibility you are talking about, fewer 

parents engaged in the process, fewer parents prepared to show up. 

My wife is a professional educator. Fewer parents showed up 

during this decade at parent-teacher meetings than before. Fewer 

parents are engaged in these programs, and yet this has gone 

down. That is why I think it is very important, and Dr. Crane in 

a different area and Ms. Solberg talk about data-based conclusions; 

in other words, making sure that we really know what we are talking about rather than just following our instincts. 

You know, when I stand up and talk about American foreign policy to my constituency and I start talking about what is going on 

in terms of negotiations with the Chinese regarding strategic doctrine, everyone sort of stands back in my constituency and says, 

well, you know, Joe is an expert in this and I will listen to what 

he has to say. 

I have done more work on the criminal justice side of the equation. When I speak, everyone assumes, which they have an absolute right to, that everybody is an expert on law enforcement. Everybody knows why we have crime. No one thinks that there is any 

database. If we just eradicated poverty, we would have no crime, 

on the one end, and those that say if we just occasionally took the 

belt off the loops on our pants and smacked our children, we would 

have no crime. 

Yet, everybody seems to be fully prepared to be an expert on law 

enforcement. Yet, we have increasing data to determine that some 

of our old saws just don’t hold water; they just don’t make sense, 

they just don’t add up. 

I hope as you go into this you will focus more on the data, not 

you personally, but less on what, coming from the left and the 

right, are these sure ideological notions of what solves the problem. 

I find I have little respect for the left or the right because they 

don’t think very much. There is a great deal of certitude. They 

know for certain that they are right because the Lord told them or 

they just know in their heart. 

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For example, you point out Boys and Girls Clubs. When I wrote 

the crime bill, I am the guy that wrote into the law that Boys and 

Girls Clubs be funded, because I couldn’t get my more conservative 

Democrat and Republican friends to think prevention worked. 

I found a study that was a very serious study done taking the 

same demographic breakdown of public housing projects in three 

Midwestern cities. I believe it was Chicago, St. Louis, and I forget 

where else, to tell you the truth now. It showed, where there was 

a Boys and Girls Club in the basement of a public housing project, 

there was, on average, 28 percent fewer crimes, 28 percent less use 

of drugs. I mean, it averaged out to 28 percent. 

So I am not a rocket scientist, but it seemed to me this might 

be a good idea. What we did is we went in and we found, with the 

help of the police organizations that helped me write that bill—

when I asked cops what they wanted, I said do you want more cops 

or do you want a couple more Boys and Girls Clubs in your neighborhoods? They said give me the Boys and Girls Clubs. 

Well, my right-wing friends thought that was—‘‘Moses’’ Heston 

thought that was a little bit of this just social engineering. But 

guess what? It works, it works. The reason there are more Boys 

and Girls Clubs is we put $20 million a year in. They have increased by two-thirds, the number of them. 

I called a guy named Case and I said, you know, kids don’t know 

how to use computers; there is a great digital divide. So he contributed through his organization 57,000 brand new computers so that 

every Boys and Girls Club in America would be guaranteed to be 

hooked to the Internet and have available to them a minimum of 

ten of these computers in every Boys and Girls Club. Then I got 

a call from Microsoft saying why didn’t you ask us? So I asked the 

head of a little company called Microsoft and he committed $100 

million to the Boys and Girls Clubs to provide all the software and 

the teachers. 

Now, in the face of all this, the President eliminated funding for 

Boys and Girls Clubs. I don’t quite get it. I don’t get it. Is there 

something not working? What am I missing? 

So without putting you more on the spot, since you are not in office yet, but I am going to put you on the spot a lot because you 

are a bright guy and you will give me honest answers, I just ask 

you as a favor to honestly look at what you thinks works and what 

doesn’t work, what works and what doesn’t work. 

I don’t know the answers. I don’t know what works and what 

doesn’t work, and I am not sure crime is down because of the investment we made in the juvenile justice programs. But I do know 

that your notion about hands-on parents—fewer parents are handson today than they were in 1990, and yet crime is down. But what 

does that mean? 

Well, I think it means that we have fundamentally increased 

across the board—local, State and national—focus on mentoring, 

fundamentally increased our commitment to things like Boys and 

Girls Clubs, which is not a real substitute for parents, but when 

you don’t have nuclear families, then it seems to be of some help. 

Those silly little programs like keeping gymnasiums open until 

midnight in tough parts of town reduces crime. 

125

So I hope you will look at that stuff because I believe you are 

about to assume the single most important job in the system, the 

single most important job in the system. Not that you are responsible for the answers of bringing crime down, but if we can get a 

handle on this stream, if we can keep out kids out of the crime and 

drug stream, our chances of being safe and my 85-year-old mother 

who was mugged in a parking lot not being mugged again in the 

parking lot, in broad daylight at the supermaket—by the way, 

when they caught the guy and the woman, my mother said they 

needed the money, honey, don’t do it. God love her. They needed 

the money. 

At any rate, the fact of the matter is I just hope we will try to 

figure out what really works and what really doesn’t work, because 

something happened, something happened. For my Republican 

friends, in spite of Clinton something happened, in spite of him, 

maybe. But whatever the reason, something good happened. How 

do we keep it going, unless it really didn’t happen, and it may not 

have because maybe we are doing the statistics a different way. 

So that is my only plea with you, if you will as open-minded as 

you can, because you are at the place where there is an intersection of all these things. I know you know that. I sound like I am 

lecturing. I am not. I don’t mean to come across that way, but I 

really think the job you are about to take is so, so important and 

it needs an advocate. 

Just as you were an advocate in the Justice Department, and 

that is what I admire about you, be the same advocate. If you become convinced that something that is within your jurisdiction is 

working and people don’t want to keep it, be an advocate. You have 

been in the past. I admire you for it. 

In the interest of making sure that your wife is still willing to 

let you take this job, since she is with your three beautiful children 

in that room—I say to all the children in the room if they can hear 

it—and you are no child, honey, but an old lady like you, this is 

the time to demand something very important that you want. Now 

is the time, as dad walks out, to say, dad, how about the following? 

If you need any advice on how to leverage this, come on up and 

I am happy to talk with you about this, okay? 

I think, Mary Ann, that your daughter has already leveraged 

you, so I don’t think it matters for you. 

Does anyone want to make a closing comment? I have kept you 

too long, but again I apologize for my enthusiasm about this. I 

don’t have the answers. I have been doing this a long time and I 

don’t have all the answers, but some things seem clearer to me 

than others. I hope whatever you think is the path to deal with 

what is the most important job, I think, in Government—you all 

are about to assume those jobs. Drugs and juvenile justice are the 

gateways to a significant part of the problem America faces as it 

relates to productivity and as it relates to basic value system and 

our public safety. 

So I thank you all very much for indulging me, and I wish you 

all luck in your new jobs and I look forward to working with you.

We are adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the committee was adjourned.] 

[Questions and answers and submissions for the record follow:]

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