From: Phil Hopkinson [mailto:phopkinson@hvolt.com]

Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:26 AM

To: Bob Smith; 'Robert Berman'

Cc: 'Roy, Robin'; 'Corkran, Jerry L'; 'BolducChristopher '; 'Anderson Richard'; 'Ballo Timothy'; 'Beck Scott

R.'; 'Caskey John. F'; 'Cymbalsky John'; adelaski@standardsasap.org; 'Tom'; 'FernstromGary'; 'Gaytan

Carlos'; 'GreesonRobert'; bruce.r.hi rsch@bge.com; 'HodgeGerald R.'; 'Hyland Michael J.'; 'Millure David';

'Nadel Steven'; 'Patterson Wesley F.'; 'Petersen Eric'; 'Polinski Raymond'; artrosenfeld@gmail.com;

'RosenstockSteven J.'; 'Simmons Charles E.'; 'Cohen Dan'; 'Coulter Greg'; 'Creevy Jim';

ahofmann@publicpower.org; 'Kumar Puesh'; 'Mauer Joanna'; 'Aaron Meyers'; jrossetti@mlgw.org; 'Ryan

Paul'; 'Schoen Jerry W.'; 'Waltner, Meg'; Brian Co ffey; 'Coughlin Katie'; brenda.edwards@ee.doe.gov;

jeremiah.freeman@ee.doe.gov; Caitlin Johnson; Zh imei Luo; emily.marchetti@ee.doe.gov; Michael

Rivest; 'Rosenquist Gregory'; 'Drexler Charles R.'; James.Lass@cleco.com; 'Sampat MaheshP.';

DYoung@energy-solution.com; chad.kennedy@us.schn eider-electric.com; eduardorobles@eaton.com;

vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com; 'Kenneth Winder '; thomas.patzner@us.schneider-electric.com;

carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com; 'Raba Jim'; 'Parker Richard'; 'Saint, Robert D.'

Subject: RE: Cost of Capital to Electric Utilities

Great comments Bob:

Phil

Philip J Hopkinson, PE

President & CEO HVOLT Inc.

3704 High Ridge Rd.

Charlotte, NC 28270

phopkinson@hvolt.com

Ph 704-846-3290

Fx 704-845-2520

Cell 704-236-3320

www.hvolt.com

From: Bob Smith [ mailto:bsmith@federalpacific.com ]

Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 8:37 PM

To: 'Robert Berman'

Cc: 'Roy, Robin'; 'Corkran, Jerry L'; 'BolducChristopher '; 'Anderson Richard'; 'Ballo Timothy'; 'Beck Scott

R.'; 'Caskey John. F'; 'Cymbalsky John'; adelaski@standardsasap.org ; 'Tom'; 'FernstromGary'; 'Gaytan

Carlos'; 'GreesonRobert'; bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com ; 'HodgeGerald R.'; 'Hyland Michael J.'; 'Millure David';

'Nadel Steven'; 'Patterson Wesley F.'; 'Petersen Eric'; 'Polinski Raymond'; artrosenfeld@gmail.com ;

'RosenstockSteven J.'; 'Simmons Charles E.'; 'Cohen Dan'; 'Coulter Greg'; 'Creevy Jim';

ahofmann@publicpower.org ; 'Kumar Puesh'; 'Mauer Joanna'; 'Aaron Meyers'; jrossetti@mlgw.org ; 'Ryan

Paul'; 'Schoen Jerry W.'; 'Waltner, Meg'; brian.coffey@navigant.com ; 'Coughlin Katie';

brenda.edwards@ee.doe.gov ; jeremiah.freeman@ee.doe.gov ; 'JohnsonCaitlin';

zhimei.luo@navigant.com ; emily.marchetti@ee.doe.gov ; mrivest@navigant.com ; 'Rosenquist Gregory';

'Drexler Charles R.'; Phil Hopkinson; James.Lass@cleco.com ; 'Sampat MaheshP.'; DYoung@energysolution.com ; chad.kennedy@us.schneider-electric.com ; eduardorobles@eaton.com ;

vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com ; 'Kenneth Winder'; thomas.patzner@us.schneider-electric.com ;

carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com ; 'Raba Jim'; 'Parker Richard'; 'Saint, Robert D.'

Subject: RE: Cost of Capital to Electric Utilities

Robert:I didn’t say anything about how interest rates are derived; all I said was don’t integrate CPI into the

assumed discount rate

. I stick by my statement that Banks don’t care about Inflation and CPI, they care

about the differential between the cost of money and the revenue from loans. Discount rates deal with

monetary returns for competing investments.

Check with your colleague, Paul Krugman; I think he’ll say the same thing. If yo u don’t like Krugman,

then let’s turn to physics and talk about savings in barrels of oil or tons of coal, please.

At this point in time we need understanding, clarity, and confidence in each other’s statements.

Don’t you believe that we can pull off successfully this Negotiated Rule Makin g effort that we’re trying

to arrange? Let’s throw out some clarifying, empathetic, and complementary comments that support

the “opposition” so we can move ahead.

I am betting we can get our rule making recommendations done.

Regards,

Bob Smith, PE

Product Manager

Federal Pacific

601 Old Airport Road

Bristol, VA 24201

TEL: (276) 645-8836

FAX: (276) 645-8956

CELL: (276) 591-6143

Email: bsmith@federalpacific.com

The information contained in this message and any attachments is intended only for the use of the individual or

entity to which it is addressed, and may contain informa tion that is privileged, confidential and exempt from

disclosure under applicable la w. If you have received this message in error, you are prohibited from copying,

distributing, or using the information. Please contact the sender immediately by return e-mail and completely delete

the original message from your system.

From: Robert Berman [ mailto:bermaneconomics@gmail.com ]

Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 8:05 PM

To: Bob Smith

Cc: Roy, Robin; Corkran, Jerry L; BolducChristopher; Anderson Richard; Ballo Timothy; Beck Scott R.;

Caskey John. F; Cymbalsky John; < adelaski@standardsasap.org >; Tom; FernstromGary; Gaytan Carlos;GreesonRobert; < bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com >; HodgeGerald R.; Hyland Michael J.; Millure David; Nadel

Steven; Patterson Wesley F.; Petersen Eric; Polinski Raymond; < artrosenfeld@gmail.com >;

RosenstockSteven J.; Simmons Charles E.; Cohen Dan; Coulter Greg; Creevy Jim;

< ahofmann@publicpower.org >; Kumar Puesh; Mauer Joanna; Aaron Meyers; < jrossetti@mlgw.org >;

Ryan Paul; Schoen Jerry W.; Waltner, Meg; < brian.coffey@navigant.com >; Coughlin Katie;

< brenda.edwards@ee.doe.gov >; < jeremiah.freeman@ee.doe.gov >; JohnsonCaitlin;

< zhimei.luo@navigant.com >; < emily.marchetti@ee.doe.gov >; < mrivest@navigant.com >; Rosenquist

Gregory; Drexler Charles R.; PhilHopkinson; < James.Lass@cleco.com >; Sampat MaheshP.;

< DYoung@energy-solution.com >; < chad.kennedy@us.schneider-electric.com >;

< eduardorobles@eaton.com >; < vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com >; Kenneth Winder;

< thomas.patzner@us.schneider-electric.com >; < carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com >; Raba Jim; Parker

Richard; Robert Berman; Saint, Robert D.

Subject: Re: Cost of Capital to Electric Utilities



### Sorry Bob, I must respectfully disagree. Consider that TIPS yields are lower than conventional

Treasury securities -- the differen ce being what the market expects inflation to be. Inflation is

very much a factor in interests rates and equity yields. Banks must indeed consider inflation as

well as everyone else in the market. Banks don't get to pick the interest rate anymore than you or

your members do. Both need to take the rate se rved up by the market, and the market does very

much consider inflation.

Regards,

Robert A. Berman, Principal

Berman Economics

1915 Grand Court

Vienna, VA 22182

703.281.0490

703.655.8398 (cell)

Berman.Economics@gmail.com

www.BermanEconomics.com

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 14, 2011, at 7:41 PM, "Bob Smith" < bsmith@federalpacific.com > wrote:

Fellow Negotiated Rule Making Members:

We seem to be adding unnecessary confusion to our analyses.

Banks don’t care about Inflation or CPI. Banks measure their success on the cost to borrow money

versus the interest rate they can charge on loans of this money.

The discount factor that we assume in our present worth calculations is simply an algebraic term for

discounting future revenues and expenditures which have nothing to do with CPI. CPI is an indicator of

what a given quantity of tangible goods cost when referenced to some base period.We could, if we wanted to, express our analysis in “easy

‐ to

‐ understand” terms that are meaningful such

as “barrels of oil” or “tons of coal” that are saved, as we move toward higher efficiencies

.

Regards,

Bob Smith, PE

Product Manager

Federal Pacific

601 Old Airport Road

Bristol, VA 24201

TEL: (276) 645-8836

FAX: (276) 645-8956

CELL: (276) 591-6143

Email: bsmith@federalpacific.com

The information contained in this message and any attachments is intended only for the use of the individual or

entity to which it is addressed, and may contain informa tion that is privileged, confidential and exempt from

disclosure under applicable la w. If you have received this message in error, you are prohibited from copying,

distributing, or using the information. Please contact the sender immediately by return e-mail and completely delete

the original message from your system.

From: Roy, Robin [ mailto:rroy@nrdc.org ]

Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 7:26 PM

To: Saint, Robert D.; Robert Berman

Cc: Corkran, Jerry L; Bolduc Christopher; Anderson Ri chard; Ballo Timothy; Beck Scott R.; Caskey John.

F; Cymbalsky John; adelaski@standardsasap.org ; Tom; Fernstrom Gary; Gaytan Carlos; Greeson Robert;

bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com ; Hodge Gerald R.; Hyland Michael J.; Millure David; Nadel Steven; Patterson

Wesley F.; Petersen Eric; Polinski Raymond; artrosenfeld@gmail.com ; Rosenstock Steven J.; Simmons

Charles E.; Cohen Dan; Coulter Greg; Creevy Jim; ahofmann@publicpower.org ; Kumar Puesh; Mauer

Joanna; Aaron Meyers; jrossetti@mlgw.org ; Ryan Paul; Schoen Jerry W.; bsmith@federalpacific.com ;

Waltner, Meg; brian.coffey@navigant.com ; Coughlin Katie; brenda.edwards@ee.doe.gov ;

jeremiah.freeman@ee.doe.gov ; Johnson Caitlin; zhimei.luo@navigant.com ; emily.marchetti@ee.doe.gov ;

mrivest@navigant.com ; Rosenquist Gregory; Drexler Charles R.; Phil Hopkinson; James.Lass@cleco.com ;

Sampat Mahesh P.; DYoung@energy-solution.com ; chad.kennedy@us.schneider-electric.com ;

eduardorobles@eaton.com ; vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com ; Kenneth Winder;

thomas.patzner@us.schneider-electric.com ; carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com ; Raba Jim; Parker Richard

Subject: RE: Cost of Capital to Electric Utilities

Thanks Bob,Is the 6.22% rate of return real or nominal?

If it’s 6.22% nominal, then with cpi currently at ~3.9% the real rate is around 2.2%, which suggests 7% is

high.

Cheers, Robin

From: Saint, Robert D. [ mailto:robert.saint@nreca.coop ]

Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 4:03 PM

To: Robert Berman

Cc: Corkran, Jerry L; Bolduc Christopher; Anderson Ri chard; Ballo Timothy; Beck Scott R.; Caskey John.

F; Cymbalsky John; adelaski@standardsasap.org Delaski; Tom; Fernstrom Gary; Gaytan Carlos; Greeson

Robert; bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com Hirsch R; Hodge Gerald R.; Hyland Michael J.; Millure David; Nadel

Steven; Patterson Wesley F.; Petersen Eric; Polinski Raymond; artrosenfeld@gmail.com Rosenfeld;

Rosenstock Steven J.; Roy, Robin; Simmons Ch arles E.; Cohen Dan; Coulter Greg; Creevy Jim;

ahofmann@publicpower.org Hofmann; Kumar Puesh; Mauer Joanna; Aaron Meyers; jrossetti@mlgw.org

Rossetti; Ryan Paul; Schoen Jerry W.; bsmith@federalpacific.com Smith; Waltner, Meg;

brian.coffey@navigant.com Coffey; Coughlin Katie; brenda.edwards@ee.doe.gov Edwards;

jeremiah.freeman@ee.doe.gov Freeman; Johnson Caitlin; zhimei.luo@navigant.com Luo;

emily.marchetti@ee.doe.gov ; mrivest@navigant.com Rivest; Rosenquist Gregory; Drexler Charles R.; Phil

Hopkinson; James.Lass@cleco.com Lass; Sampat Mahesh P.; DYoung@energy-solution.com Young;

chad.kennedy@us.schneider-electric.com Kennedy; eduardorobles@eaton.com Robles;

vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com Tendulkar; Kenneth Winder; thomas.patzner@us.schneider-electric.com

Patzner; carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com Siquieros; Raba Jim; Parker Richard

Subject: RE: Cost of Capital to Electric Utilities



### Robert—

After much discussion within NRECA and consultation with a major supplemental lender for

distribution cooperatives, we have come up with median Rate of Return on Total Capitalization

of 6.22% for electric cooperatives. So, the 7% figure being used is well within the ball park.



# Bob Saint

Principal Distribution Engineer, Energy and Power Division

National Rural Electric Cooperative Association (NRECA)

4301 Wilson Blvd

Arlington, VA 22203

Phone: (703) 907-5863

Cell: (703) 283-5078

From: Robert Berman [ mailto:bermaneconomics@gmail.com ]

Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 5:47 AM

To: Parker Richard

Cc: Robert Berman; Corkran, Jerry L; Bolduc Christop her; Anderson Richard; Ballo Timothy; Beck Scott

R.; Caskey John. F; Cymbalsky John; adelaski@standardsasap.org Delaski; Tom; Fernstrom Gary; Gaytan

Carlos; Greeson Robert; bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com Hirsch R; Hodge Gerald R.; Hyland Michael J.; Millure

David; Nadel Steven; Patterson Wesley F.; Petersen Eric; Polinski Raymond; artrosenfeld@gmail.com

Rosenfeld; Rosenstock Steven J.; Roy Robin; Saint, Robert D.; Simmons Charle s E.; Cohen Dan; Coulter

Greg; Creevy Jim; ahofmann@publicpower.org Hofmann; Kumar Puesh; Mauer Joanna; Aaron Meyers;

jrossetti@mlgw.org Rossetti; Ryan Paul; Schoen Jerry W.; bsmith@federalpacific.com Smith; Waltner

Meg; brian.coffey@navigant.com Coffey; Coughlin Katie; brenda.edwards@ee.doe.gov Edwards;jeremiah.freeman@ee.doe.gov Freeman; Johnson Caitlin; zhimei.luo@navigant.com Luo;

emily.marchetti@ee.doe.gov ; mrivest@navigant.com Rivest; Rosenquist Gregory; Drexler Charles R.; Phil

Hopkinson; James.Lass@cleco.com Lass; Sampat Mahesh P.; DYoung@energy-solution.com Young;

chad.kennedy@us.schneider-electric.com Kennedy; eduardorobles@eaton.com Robles;

vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com Tendulkar; Kenneth Winder; thomas.patzner@us.schneider-electric.com

Patzner; carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com Siquieros; Raba Jim

Subject: Cost of Capital to Electric Utilities



### Richard and All,

For those interested in the curren t cost of money to investor owne d electric utilities, the weighted

average cost of capital a ppears to be a little over 5%. This is composed of about 7% equity and

4% debt. See attached for full li st of sector costs. As noted in my earlier email to Ken, rural

electric coops and municipals typically borrow fr om RUS at rates pegged to long-term treasuries

-- currently about 3%. Links also included her for convenience.

http://www.rurdev.usda.gov/UEP_Rates.html

and http://www.rurdev.usda.gov/UEP_Loans_Grants.html

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