From: Phil Hopkinson [mailto:phopkinson@hvolt.com] 

Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:26 AM 

To: Bob Smith; 'Robert Berman' 

Cc: 'Roy, Robin'; 'Corkran, Jerry L'; 'BolducChristopher'; 'Anderson Richard'; 'Ballo Timothy'; 'Beck Scott 

R.'; 'Caskey John. F'; 'Cymbalsky John'; adelaski@standardsasap.org; 'Tom'; 'FernstromGary'; 'Gaytan 

Carlos'; 'GreesonRobert'; bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com; 'HodgeGerald R.'; 'Hyland Michael J.'; 'Millure David'; 

'Nadel Steven'; 'Patterson Wesley F.'; 'Petersen Eric'; 'Polinski Raymond'; artrosenfeld@gmail.com; 

'RosenstockSteven J.'; 'Simmons Charles E.'; 'Cohen Dan'; 'Coulter Greg'; 'Creevy Jim'; 

ahofmann@publicpower.org; 'Kumar Puesh'; 'Mauer Joanna'; 'Aaron Meyers'; jrossetti@mlgw.org; 'Ryan 

Paul'; 'Schoen Jerry W.'; 'Waltner, Meg'; Brian Coffey; 'Coughlin Katie'; brenda.edwards@ee.doe.gov; 

jeremiah.freeman@ee.doe.gov; Caitlin Johnson; Zhimei Luo; emily.marchetti@ee.doe.gov; Michael 

Rivest; 'Rosenquist Gregory'; 'Drexler Charles R.'; James.Lass@cleco.com; 'Sampat MaheshP.'; 

DYoung@energy-solution.com; chad.kennedy@us.schneider-electric.com; eduardorobles@eaton.com; 

vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com; 'Kenneth Winder'; thomas.patzner@us.schneider-electric.com; 

carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com; 'Raba Jim'; 'Parker Richard'; 'Saint, Robert D.' 

Subject: RE: Cost of Capital to Electric Utilities 

Great comments Bob:

Phil

Philip J Hopkinson, PE 

President & CEO HVOLT Inc. 

3704 High Ridge Rd. 

Charlotte, NC 28270 

phopkinson@hvolt.com

Ph 704-846-3290 

Fx 704-845-2520 

Cell 704-236-3320 

www.hvolt.com

From: Bob Smith [mailto:bsmith@federalpacific.com] 

Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 8:37 PM 

To: 'Robert Berman' 

Cc: 'Roy, Robin'; 'Corkran, Jerry L'; 'BolducChristopher'; 'Anderson Richard'; 'Ballo Timothy'; 'Beck Scott 

R.'; 'Caskey John. F'; 'Cymbalsky John'; adelaski@standardsasap.org; 'Tom'; 'FernstromGary'; 'Gaytan 

Carlos'; 'GreesonRobert'; bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com; 'HodgeGerald R.'; 'Hyland Michael J.'; 'Millure David'; 

'Nadel Steven'; 'Patterson Wesley F.'; 'Petersen Eric'; 'Polinski Raymond'; artrosenfeld@gmail.com; 

'RosenstockSteven J.'; 'Simmons Charles E.'; 'Cohen Dan'; 'Coulter Greg'; 'Creevy Jim'; 

ahofmann@publicpower.org; 'Kumar Puesh'; 'Mauer Joanna'; 'Aaron Meyers'; jrossetti@mlgw.org; 'Ryan 

Paul'; 'Schoen Jerry W.'; 'Waltner, Meg'; brian.coffey@navigant.com; 'Coughlin Katie'; 

brenda.edwards@ee.doe.gov; jeremiah.freeman@ee.doe.gov; 'JohnsonCaitlin'; 

zhimei.luo@navigant.com; emily.marchetti@ee.doe.gov; mrivest@navigant.com; 'Rosenquist Gregory'; 

'Drexler Charles R.'; Phil Hopkinson; James.Lass@cleco.com; 'Sampat MaheshP.'; DYoung@energysolution.com; chad.kennedy@us.schneider-electric.com; eduardorobles@eaton.com; 

vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com; 'Kenneth Winder'; thomas.patzner@us.schneider-electric.com; 

carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com; 'Raba Jim'; 'Parker Richard'; 'Saint, Robert D.' 

Subject: RE: Cost of Capital to Electric Utilities 

Robert:
I didn’t say anything about how interest rates are derived; all I said was don’t integrate CPI into the

assumed discount rate.  I stick by my statement that Banks don’t care about Inflation and CPI, they care

about the differential between the cost of money and the revenue from loans.  Discount rates deal with

monetary returns for competing investments.

Check with your colleague, Paul Krugman; I think he’ll say the same thing.   If you don’t like Krugman,

then let’s turn to physics and talk about savings in barrels of oil or tons of coal, please.   

At this point in time we need understanding, clarity, and confidence in each other’s statements.   

Don’t you believe that we can pull off successfully this Negotiated Rule Making effort that we’re trying

to arrange?  Let’s throw out some clarifying, empathetic, and complementary comments that support

the “opposition”  so we can move ahead.   

I am betting we can get our rule making recommendations done.

Regards,

Bob Smith, PE 

Product Manager 

Federal Pacific

601 Old Airport Road

Bristol, VA 24201 

  

TEL: (276) 645-8836

FAX: (276) 645-8956

CELL: (276) 591-6143

Email: bsmith@federalpacific.com

The information contained in this message and any attachments is intended only for the use of the individual or 

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disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, you are prohibited from copying, 

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From: Robert Berman [mailto:bermaneconomics@gmail.com] 

Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 8:05 PM 

To: Bob Smith 

Cc: Roy, Robin; Corkran, Jerry L; BolducChristopher; Anderson Richard; Ballo Timothy; Beck Scott R.; 

Caskey John. F; Cymbalsky John; <adelaski@standardsasap.org>; Tom; FernstromGary; Gaytan Carlos; 
GreesonRobert; <bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com>; HodgeGerald R.; Hyland Michael J.; Millure David; Nadel 

Steven; Patterson Wesley F.; Petersen Eric; Polinski Raymond; <artrosenfeld@gmail.com>; 

RosenstockSteven J.; Simmons Charles E.; Cohen Dan; Coulter Greg; Creevy Jim; 

<ahofmann@publicpower.org>; Kumar Puesh; Mauer Joanna; Aaron Meyers; <jrossetti@mlgw.org>; 

Ryan Paul; Schoen Jerry W.; Waltner, Meg; <brian.coffey@navigant.com>; Coughlin Katie; 

<brenda.edwards@ee.doe.gov>; <jeremiah.freeman@ee.doe.gov>; JohnsonCaitlin; 

<zhimei.luo@navigant.com>; <emily.marchetti@ee.doe.gov>; <mrivest@navigant.com>; Rosenquist 

Gregory; Drexler Charles R.; PhilHopkinson; <James.Lass@cleco.com>; Sampat MaheshP.; 

<DYoung@energy-solution.com>; <chad.kennedy@us.schneider-electric.com>; 

<eduardorobles@eaton.com>; <vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com>; Kenneth Winder; 

<thomas.patzner@us.schneider-electric.com>; <carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com>; Raba Jim; Parker 

Richard; Robert Berman; Saint, Robert D. 

Subject: Re: Cost of Capital to Electric Utilities 

Sorry Bob, I must respectfully disagree. Consider that TIPS yields are lower than conventional 

Treasury securities -- the difference being what the market expects inflation to be. Inflation is 

very much a factor in interests rates and equity yields. Banks must indeed consider inflation as 

well as everyone else in the market. Banks don't get to pick the interest rate anymore than you or 

your members do. Both need to take the rate served up by the market, and the market does very 

much consider inflation. 

Regards, 

 

Robert A. Berman, Principal 

Berman Economics 

1915 Grand Court 

Vienna, VA 22182 

703.281.0490 

703.655.8398 (cell) 

Berman.Economics@gmail.com

www.BermanEconomics.com

 

Sent from my iPhone 

On Nov 14, 2011, at 7:41 PM, "Bob Smith" <bsmith@federalpacific.com> wrote: 

Fellow Negotiated Rule Making Members:

We seem to be adding unnecessary confusion to our analyses.

Banks don’t care about Inflation or CPI.  Banks measure their success on the cost to borrow money

versus the interest rate they can charge on loans of this money.  

The discount factor that we assume in our present worth calculations is simply an algebraic term for

discounting future revenues and expenditures which have nothing to do with CPI.  CPI is an indicator of

what a given quantity of tangible goods cost when referenced to some base period.
We could, if we wanted to,  express our analysis in “easy‐to‐understand” terms that are meaningful such

as “barrels of oil” or “tons of coal”  that are saved, as we move toward higher efficiencies .

Regards,

Bob Smith, PE

Product Manager

Federal Pacific

601 Old Airport Road

Bristol, VA 24201 

TEL: (276) 645-8836

FAX: (276) 645-8956

CELL: (276) 591-6143

Email: bsmith@federalpacific.com

The information contained in this message and any attachments is intended only for the use of the individual or 

entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from 

disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, you are prohibited from copying, 

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From: Roy, Robin [mailto:rroy@nrdc.org] 

Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 7:26 PM 

To: Saint, Robert D.; Robert Berman 

Cc: Corkran, Jerry L; Bolduc Christopher; Anderson Richard; Ballo Timothy; Beck Scott R.; Caskey John. 

F; Cymbalsky John; adelaski@standardsasap.org; Tom; Fernstrom Gary; Gaytan Carlos; Greeson Robert; 

bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com; Hodge Gerald R.; Hyland Michael J.; Millure David; Nadel Steven; Patterson 

Wesley F.; Petersen Eric; Polinski Raymond; artrosenfeld@gmail.com; Rosenstock Steven J.; Simmons 

Charles E.; Cohen Dan; Coulter Greg; Creevy Jim; ahofmann@publicpower.org; Kumar Puesh; Mauer 

Joanna; Aaron Meyers; jrossetti@mlgw.org; Ryan Paul; Schoen Jerry W.; bsmith@federalpacific.com; 

Waltner, Meg; brian.coffey@navigant.com; Coughlin Katie; brenda.edwards@ee.doe.gov; 

jeremiah.freeman@ee.doe.gov; Johnson Caitlin; zhimei.luo@navigant.com; emily.marchetti@ee.doe.gov; 

mrivest@navigant.com; Rosenquist Gregory; Drexler Charles R.; Phil Hopkinson; James.Lass@cleco.com; 

Sampat Mahesh P.; DYoung@energy-solution.com; chad.kennedy@us.schneider-electric.com; 

eduardorobles@eaton.com; vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com; Kenneth Winder; 

thomas.patzner@us.schneider-electric.com; carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com; Raba Jim; Parker Richard 

Subject: RE: Cost of Capital to Electric Utilities

 

Thanks Bob,
Is the 6.22% rate of return real or nominal?  

If it’s 6.22% nominal, then with cpi currently at ~3.9% the real rate is around 2.2%, which suggests 7% is

high.  

Cheers, Robin

From: Saint, Robert D. [mailto:robert.saint@nreca.coop] 

Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 4:03 PM 

To: Robert Berman 

Cc: Corkran, Jerry L; Bolduc Christopher; Anderson Richard; Ballo Timothy; Beck Scott R.; Caskey John. 

F; Cymbalsky John; adelaski@standardsasap.org Delaski; Tom; Fernstrom Gary; Gaytan Carlos; Greeson 

Robert; bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com Hirsch R; Hodge Gerald R.; Hyland Michael J.; Millure David; Nadel 

Steven; Patterson Wesley F.; Petersen Eric; Polinski Raymond; artrosenfeld@gmail.com Rosenfeld; 

Rosenstock Steven J.; Roy, Robin; Simmons Charles E.; Cohen Dan; Coulter Greg; Creevy Jim; 

ahofmann@publicpower.org Hofmann; Kumar Puesh; Mauer Joanna; Aaron Meyers; jrossetti@mlgw.org

Rossetti; Ryan Paul; Schoen Jerry W.; bsmith@federalpacific.com Smith; Waltner, Meg; 

brian.coffey@navigant.com Coffey; Coughlin Katie; brenda.edwards@ee.doe.gov Edwards; 

jeremiah.freeman@ee.doe.gov Freeman; Johnson Caitlin; zhimei.luo@navigant.com Luo; 

emily.marchetti@ee.doe.gov; mrivest@navigant.com Rivest; Rosenquist Gregory; Drexler Charles R.; Phil 

Hopkinson; James.Lass@cleco.com Lass; Sampat Mahesh P.; DYoung@energy-solution.com Young; 

chad.kennedy@us.schneider-electric.com Kennedy; eduardorobles@eaton.com Robles; 

vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com Tendulkar; Kenneth Winder; thomas.patzner@us.schneider-electric.com

Patzner; carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com Siquieros; Raba Jim; Parker Richard 

Subject: RE: Cost of Capital to Electric Utilities

 

Robert—

After much discussion within NRECA and consultation with a major supplemental lender for

distribution cooperatives, we have come up with median Rate of Return on Total Capitalization

of  6.22% for electric cooperatives.  So, the 7% figure being used is well within the ball park.  

Bob Saint  

Principal Distribution Engineer, Energy and Power Division  

National Rural Electric Cooperative Association (NRECA)  

4301 Wilson Blvd  

Arlington, VA 22203  

Phone: (703) 907-5863  

Cell: (703) 283-5078

From: Robert Berman [mailto:bermaneconomics@gmail.com] 

Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 5:47 AM 

To: Parker Richard 

Cc: Robert Berman; Corkran, Jerry L; Bolduc Christopher; Anderson Richard; Ballo Timothy; Beck Scott 

R.; Caskey John. F; Cymbalsky John; adelaski@standardsasap.org Delaski; Tom; Fernstrom Gary; Gaytan 

Carlos; Greeson Robert; bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com Hirsch R; Hodge Gerald R.; Hyland Michael J.; Millure 

David; Nadel Steven; Patterson Wesley F.; Petersen Eric; Polinski Raymond; artrosenfeld@gmail.com

Rosenfeld; Rosenstock Steven J.; Roy Robin; Saint, Robert D.; Simmons Charles E.; Cohen Dan; Coulter 

Greg; Creevy Jim; ahofmann@publicpower.org Hofmann; Kumar Puesh; Mauer Joanna; Aaron Meyers; 

jrossetti@mlgw.org Rossetti; Ryan Paul; Schoen Jerry W.; bsmith@federalpacific.com Smith; Waltner 

Meg; brian.coffey@navigant.com Coffey; Coughlin Katie; brenda.edwards@ee.doe.gov Edwards; 
jeremiah.freeman@ee.doe.gov Freeman; Johnson Caitlin; zhimei.luo@navigant.com Luo; 

emily.marchetti@ee.doe.gov; mrivest@navigant.com Rivest; Rosenquist Gregory; Drexler Charles R.; Phil 

Hopkinson; James.Lass@cleco.com Lass; Sampat Mahesh P.; DYoung@energy-solution.com Young; 

chad.kennedy@us.schneider-electric.com Kennedy; eduardorobles@eaton.com Robles; 

vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com Tendulkar; Kenneth Winder; thomas.patzner@us.schneider-electric.com

Patzner; carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com Siquieros; Raba Jim 

Subject: Cost of Capital to Electric Utilities

 

Richard and All, 

 

For those interested in the current cost of money to investor owned electric utilities, the weighted 

average cost of capital appears to be a little over 5%. This is composed of about 7% equity and 

4% debt. See attached for full list of sector costs. As noted in my earlier email to Ken, rural 

electric coops and municipals typically borrow from RUS at rates pegged to long-term treasuries 

-- currently about 3%. Links also included her for convenience. 

 http://www.rurdev.usda.gov/UEP_Rates.html 

and http://www.rurdev.usda.gov/UEP_Loans_Grants.html

 

 

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