Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access Realtime

Translation (CART) system used in the subcommittee meeting and

is unedited, except the title was changed from Signage Subcommittee to

Communications Subcommittee. The CART system was used to provide an

accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf,

and was streamed in real-time and available to the public on the

internet during the meeting.

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x--------------------------------x

UNITED STATES ACCESS BOARD

RAIL VEHICLES ACCESS

ADVISORY COMMITTEE

x--------------------------------x

COMMUNICATIONS SUBCOMMITTEE

TELECONFERENCE

THURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2014

1:00 p.m.

**DRAFT TRANSCRIPT**

Staff Location:

United States Access Board

1331 F Street, NW, Suite 1000

Washington, DC 20004

Reporter: Sandra Gartrell

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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

SIGNAGE SUBCOMMITTEE

CHAIR PACHECO: Good afternoon, everyone. I want

to thank you all for participating today and welcome

you and I think we need to first go around and do some

self-introductions. I will start here. We have a

group of us at the Access Board office today, so we

will go around this table first and then open it to

everyone on the lines.

I'm Terry Pacheco. I am representing the American

Council for the Blind and am very proudly serving as

the chair of the Communications Subcommittee for the

Rail Vehicle Access Advisory Committee. I have to not

talk in alphabet soup for a minute. And to my right we

will go to Lisa.

MS. FAIRHALL: Lisa Fairhall, Access Board staff.

MR. PECHT: Jim Pecht, Access Board staff.

MS. MAZZ: Marsha Mazz, Access Board staff.

MS. SESKER: Earlene Sesker, Access Board staff.

MR. BEATTY: Paul Beatty, Access Board staff.

And on the line we have André Gagné -- I apologize

if I butcher people's name.

MS. MAZZ: Can't they introduce themselves?

MR. GAGNÉ: It's close enough. Thank you.

CHAIR PACHECO: Can we have everyone else
3

introduce yourselves, please.

MR. ROMAN: Steve Roman from LTK.

MR. PORTER: Michael Porter, Amtrak.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Janice Schacter Lintz,

Hearing Access Program.

MS. HAMLIN: Lise Hamlin, Hearing Loss Association

of America.

MS. THORP: Kim Thorp, North County Transit

District in San Diego, California.

MS. SHURLAND: Melissa Shurland, FRA.

MS. LYONS: Crystal Lyons, Southwest Transit

Association.

MR. MALDARI: Frank Maldari, MTA New York.

CHAIR PACHECO: Do we have anyone else?

MR. SLAUGHTER: Terry, I'm not sure. I think I

talked over someone before. It is Blair from Amtrak.

CHAIR PACHECO: Hi, Blair.

Thank you all, very much. Sounds like a good

turnout. Sounds like we can make a lot of progress.

I am going to do some assuming here. I believe

you have all taken a look at the new scope and

objectives for this committee since the renaming,

restructuring. I was kind of going over the scope and

the objectives. One thing that struck me, that we are

in the process of looking at the old guidelines and
4

making recommendations for updates. And we are making

these recommendations to the Advisory Committee, which

will then make final decision as to what will go

forward to recommend to the Access Board.

There is quite a bit on here under tasks. I think

we shouldn't have any difficulty getting through all of

them, especially by October, hopefully long before

that. We are reviewing the various types of signs. If

you look at number 3 on the agenda for today, for

review types of signs for each category, classification

we had talked before about way-finding, information,

emergency features and amenities, whether we are

talking visual, audible, induction loop, braille, other

formats. Right now we are limiting ourselves to that

for the purposes of today's discussion. And on the

types of vehicles, be it the rapid rail, light rail,

commuter rail, inner-city, high speed.

MR. PECHT: Automated guideways and transit.

<<<:

MR. SLAUGHTER: Street cars.

CHAIR PACHECO: Street cars. There we are.

I want to thank. I -- I hope you had a chance to

take a look at -- anyone who thought they might have

benefited from it. I think we all can. I want to

thank Blair for the very accessible document that he
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put together for us for some of the types of signs that

Amtrak uses and with pictures on them, with braille on

them, with an audible description or, in this case, a

written description of each one of the signs. There is

about 10 different ones on here. Anyone want to take a

couple of minutes and look over those. I think they

are a good learning tool for anyone not familiar with

the different types of signage that we are talking

about here.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I wanted to thank Blair for

compiling this and spending the time to do this.

Because this was extraordinarily helpful, I have to

tell you. Some of the signs I thought what they were

not what they were. So, Blair, I really appreciate you

taking the time to compile it. This will make it very

simple. Because it turns out most of the signs are not

applicable for hearing loss.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Good, Janice, thank you. I

appreciate that.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: It was a lot of work, but I

think it was really helpful to people like me who had

no idea of what the terms meant, so I really appreciate

it.

MR. SLAUGHTER: I have to thank Terry. I sent the

first few to her to make sure I was not off course. I
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was writing these elaborate narratives and Terry said,

"No, you are overdoing it." So I appreciate it. It

actually streamlined the process a lot to go back and

be short and sweet to the signs.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: So, Terry, then, also thank

you. I didn't realized you were involved. I really

appreciate it. It really makes a huge difference for a

layperson like myself. I was really clueless of what

some of these signs were, and it is helpful. So thank

you.

CHAIR PACHECO: Well, I'm glad it has worked out

so well for you.

Next, the table that Jim put together, and thank

you, Jim, for doing this, because it finally fell into

place in my head. Unfortunately, it was a little late

in falling but it finally did. The table, I'm hoping

everyone either has it or can access the copy of it on

the website.

The table that Jim put together, here is my

thought on it. And I think we can probably get through

a lot of it very quickly today.

I did a little bit of extending of the table

and -- I'm sorry.

MR. BEATTY: The table is no longer on the

website. We moved it into the archive material you can
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access at regulations.gov. There is a link on the

website. I think we put it under signage Number 4.

CHAIR PACHECO: Okay. No, what I'm talking about,

at least, or have a copy of it. I think we sent it out

with the last agenda.

My thought on this is we have got cells; one for

tactile and visual, one for just visual, one for

induction loop, one for audible and one for not

required. That was what we had come up with at the

last session.

I'm thinking the X's that are in there pertain to

what the ADA requirements for buildings are now. Let

us use the letter -- I have been trying to come up with

one that doesn't follow up with anything else. And the

best I have come up with is the letter S, as in Sam.

What I'm thinking is let's use the letter S and go

through these types of signs and if you believe that it

should be -- let's say, for instance, let me do it as

an example. The first one says "direction signs,

includes direction for direction signs." And there is

an asterisk. And if you follow down what the asterisk

says, "Applies to sign that provide direction to or

information about interior spaces and facilities."

So what I'm saying is, first of all, do we believe

that that should be tactile and visual? Just visual?
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Why do I have so much trouble saying the word

"induction." I always want to say inclusive loops.

Induction loops, audible, and not required.

Right now we see that the ADA building requirement

requires it to be visual. Whatever we feel it should

also be. If we feel it should also be tactile and

visual, let's put a letter S in that box, in that cell.

And then let's take the -- I'm trying to see whether we

should do this all in one step or do it in two steps.

I'm thinking, then, what we should also put in

there is the types of vehicles that we think this

applies to.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'm sorry. I'm trying to

find the chart. Where is the chart?

MR. BEATTY: If by chance you have the last email,

I think it was Signage Meeting Number 3, I sent it as

an attachment. If you don't have that, go to the RVAAC

website.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I do have that attachment.

We are talking about that document. I just needed to

be clear. Thanks. I know which document it is now.

CHAIR PACHECO: Okay. If we use that table we

should be able to go through this fairly quickly. I'm

hoping we can get through pretty much all of them today

and see which ones we feel need to be updated, need to
9

be added, maybe even some that don't need to be on here

at all that are now.

Let's use the letter S. Anybody that wants to

fill something in on those. Then let's put in if we

want it to be audio visual just on subway cars, on

commuter rails rather, let's say, commuter rail, you

just have to just put in C for commuter rail. If you

want to write it out, that's fine. But we can get all

this information on to this one form and get the whole

thing done as concisely and quickly as possible, I

think if we do it that way, unless anyone has a better

suggestion. That just seems like a logical way to go.

MR. PECHT: I would like to make just one

recommendation. When you look at putting your S, if

you are assuming it is for all the rail types, just

leave it a plain S, just assume it applies to all. If

it only applies to a certain type, then start putting

the letters in for the specific ones. If it is

specific to only one type or two types or three types.

CHAIR PACHECO: Excellent point, Jim. Thank you.

If you look at the bottom of the table you will

see that the -- trying to see -- here it is. There is

a listing at the bottom that says A, automated

guideway -- wait a minute. I'm halfway down the table.

I have an extremely large print on paper here, folks.
10

I'm sorry.

It says R for rapid rail, L for light rail, C for

commuter rail, I for inner-city, A for automated

guideway, H for high speed and T for trams.

If you want to refer back to that on your copy, so

much the better. But it is right there at the bottom,

just below that table.

Okay. Does anyone have anything they want to say

before we get started?

MR. MALDARI: I had a couple of quick questions.

When we identify that it is visual, we still have to

decide what the requirements are for visual signs,

correct?

CHAIR PACHECO: We will need to do that. And I

think that is all little further down in our tasks. I

thought maybe we can get the overview in first --

MR. MALDARI: No, no. I agree doing the overview.

I just want to make sure that we are already agreeing

to what visual means in the ADAAG right now. Right now

we are saying it should be a visual sign and then we

have to decide what the requirements are for visual

signs.

The reason why I'm saying that because the font

requirements are rather large. 5/8 of an inch in a

rail car takes up a lot of real estate. I think we
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should to be cognizant of that when we say what should

be visual and not.

MS. MAZZ: As I noted for the Committee on the

very first day, not the subcommitte but the full

committee, if you want to depart from the established

requirements in the ADA, you have to have a reason

based on the specific environment you're talking about.

And you have to have some belief that it results in

accessibility. I mean, obviously if you make something

11 point Calibri print it will not be accessible to

people with low vision.

Just with that in mind, as you tinker with these

technical requirements, there has to be some basis for

an understanding that they result in accessibility and

that you're tinkering with them because of the unique

needs of the environment we are dealing with.

And another option is to find other ways to

present the information.

MR. MALDARI: Okay. I do remember that. It does

make sense and I think it is a unique environment of

being inside a rail car and that may provide the

justification we need if we need to change from 5/8. I

just wanted to make sure when we are agreeing that all

these signs need to be visual, that we're not stuck on

sticking with the 5/8 if we deem it to be overly
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restrictive.

MR. SLAUGHTER: To Frank's point -- I think maybe

one of the things you should plan to try to do as we

move through the process between now and October is

once we nail down what slots these different signs go

into, visual or visual and tactile, or whatever, is

then pick some of them and try to throw them into our

respective environment, those of us who are from

railroads and operators, to get an idea.

It think one of the things that is critical when

we are looking at signs in rail cars, it is a fairly

compact space. The viewing distance is much less than

it would be in the built environment, versus a car.

That would just be my offering. Once we get

through the table here and start assigning things, then

we start looking at some of the trickier spots that we

have to deal with on the cars and bring those back for

discussion as we move along.

My hope would be ultimately it would help the

Access Board in crafting the proposed rulemaking based

on that sort of information.

CHAIR PACHECO: Thank you, both.

Frank, did you have any other issues? You

mentioned a couple of questions. Did you have anything

else? I don't want to step on your toes.
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MR. MALDARI: I appreciate that. The only thing I

wanted to mention, maybe it is obvious, is that when

you put a requirement on for directional signs, it is

not a requirement that you have to have directional

signs. It is a requirement if you do have directional

signs it has to have to meet the format. That is the

understanding I'm proceeding with. Does that sound

right to everybody?

CHAIR PACHECO: It certainly does. Is there

anyone it doesn't sound logical to?

Okay. Well, then, moving along directional

signage, right now only requires it to be visual.

Can I make -- I'm Chair I am not sure I can

actually make this as a motion. I would like to kind

of introduce this as a best practice, I guess, for us

going through this.

Unless there is some specific reason why you

wouldn't do this, which personally, I'm not sure that I

can think of, I am not a deaf and hard of hearing

expert by any matter of means or an electronic experts

by any matter of means.

But I'm thinking if something is audible it should

be in an induction loop as well. Can we just kind

of -- unless there is some reason to separate them out,

just kind of automatically feel like those two belong
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together.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Yes, because that was my

question. I was going wait until the end when we went

through this. The signs you have in the format, which

is why this is so helpful, those appear, at least in my

opinion, but I would defer to Andrew and Lise, none of

those signs appear to need any sort of induction loop

for people with hearing loss, but I assume if an

induction loop is installed at various point we are

going to need a sign about an induction loop and an

induction loop will need to be installed if there is

any audible portion.

So from the viewpoint that I'm looking at, none of

the current signage from that chart needs any induction

loop signage but if we add anything with audible, then

we need induction loop signage.

I don't know Lise and Andrew if you agree with

that.

MS. HAMLIN: The only caveat I would put to that

is that in some situations -- there are signs that may

be developed, for example, that are on subway cars now,

that tell you what the station stop is and the

direction of the door where you should go.

Those are often also -- what is also said on the

sign is also spoken by the -- I don't know, whoever
15

speaks them. So in that case whoever it speaks it goes

through the loop and that makes sense to me.

But sometimes the VMS signs are standalone, they

will say things that are not spoken. So VMS should be

treated separately.

But I think what you are saying, Terry, is

whatever is spoken should also go through the loop and

be text as well and I would agree to that to the extent

that it is possible.

CHAIR PACHECO: Okay. Thanks. We do have VMS as

a totally separate subject because that really is an

animal to itself these days. About the second or third

from the end, as I recall, on this list.

Can I just remind folks that when you do want to

speak, if you please say who you are, I think would

make it a lot easier, especially for the person doing

the CART --

MS. MAZZ: CART.

CHAIR PACHECO: I was saying wagon.

Actually when you brought that up about the

induction loop, one of the things that occurred to me

is under information signs and features, we should

probably have a sign in there that there is an

induction loop on board the vehicle, if there is.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Yes. If we had induction
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loop, we may need to circle back to the signage

category, and I had mentioned this on our first phone

call, as equipment is added. I think all equipment for

all the different disabilities, this may be an initial

signage requirement based on what is currently

available. But as equipment is added or things are

changed on the train, I think we are going to need to

circle back to this committee to just adjust the

signage. Because currently there is no loop so we

don't have signage category. But if a loop is added,

we need to add the signage because otherwise nobody

will have any idea that it is there.

And if a loop is added, we will need some sort of

visual alert to notify people when the speaker is

actually speaking.

MR. MALDARI: I think the sign for announcing that

you have a hearing loop would be a nonemergency

information sign and falls into that category. So

there already is a category assigned for that.

CHAIR PACHECO: Right.

MR. MALDARI: Requiring that you have a sign when

you have a hearing loop, seems like a logical thing to

do if that is what you are asking. I am not sure where

exactly that goes but I'm sure it can be worked in the

requirements.
17

CHAIR PACHECO: That is what I was getting at,

Frank. Thank you for clarifying that. That is what I

was saying. A sign of that nature would go under

information and/or features.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Absolutely, but based on what

the signs we have now, that was part of my not

understanding what categories the signs are. So once

we have the -- once we know there is a loop in place,

then we will have to figure out the category and we may

need to adjust some of the categories.

For example, if there is an induction loop sign we

are going to need some sort of visual alert to let

people know. We may not have a visual alert now

currently in whatever category we just discussed, but

we may need to add that. At the end it should be like

a template for initial, what currently is on board.

But we are going to need to circle back and we may need

to make adjustments based on any changes that the Board

makes, which I think makes sense because there is going

to be lots of tweaks to this.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Just so I understand, someone who

uses an induction loop system, would they not

necessarily have their device always on anticipating

announcements or is that why you would need, say, a

light that blinks or something to let you know to turn
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that feature on? Is that what you're saying, Janice?

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: The way the induction loop

system works, you have basically three settings on your

hearing aid, M, M/T, T. T being t-coil, M being

microphone. Microphone is when you are speaking to the

person and they are just hearing you back and forth.

When you have it on full T, telecoil, you are only

hearing what sound is coming through the telecoil and

all other sounds are blocked out. So if you wore that

all the time, you would never be able to hear anyone

around you. If you have M/T, then you are hearing both

the person around you and the T, but you are not having

the full strength of the telecoil. Depending on where

your hearing loss is, some people find it difficult to

hear the telecoil when it is on M/T.

From a safety perspective, you would never walk

around or just sit in your seat with telecoil, because

you want to hear the other person around you, the

conductor. And also there is not constant

announcements. So you need some sort of indication

when the announcement is being made.

I know on Swiss rails -- I have a photo of showing

they have when the speaker is on, it is a light that

goes on with like an overlay that shows a speaker. So

it indicates to someone the speaker is now on. I'm
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happy to send it but I don't know if it is correct for

someone with a visual impairment. Since I don't know

the current things, I am happy to forward to Terry or

whoever. That just let's you know, "Okay, announcement

coming, switch my hearing aid to telecoil."

MR. SLAUGHTER: That is what I thought you were

saying. When we get to the point that we are talking

about the induction loops, then, as an example -- and I

will be brief. When you have an induction loop, then

you will also have an indicator, some sort of visual

indicator to let you know it is on and you will also

have a static sign that alerts people that that service

is available on that vehicle. So those all wrap in

together.

And then that sign would fall into the information

category or wherever we choose we need to put that. So

okay.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Absolutely. Although I

think -- and I'm not a sign person. But there may be a

way of wrapping those together so it is not confusing.

I'm just thinking about this. It is not like I thought

about this before. And I don't know how this works

within the ADA code. But my thought is you don't want

someone thinking that the induction loop signal is

always on and you can listen to it.
20

It might make sense -- and this maybe one of those

things, a reason for a change -- having the induction

loop symbol and only go on when there is a light and

not having the main induction loop symbol posted, but

just doing it with a light when it is on.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Yes. I mean, I don't want to get

into designing the sign right now. But to that point,

if we are going to activate something and it is not

something as simple as a light, but it could be like

you see on restrooms, "restroom occupied when sign is

lit," something, that kind of thing, those kind of

details we can work out. I think as we move through

the other processes we can think about how we want to

describe that to your point so it makes the most sense.

For installing a system, it is not that big of a

deal when it is activated to have it activate something

else like a sign. So okay. I'm good.

CHAIR PACHECO: Okay. So directional signs.

Start with the first one. Back on Blair's examples, I

think the very first one, if I recall, would be an

example of one. My own personal feeling -- and I would

like anyone that has got any feelings on any of these,

please, that is what we are all here for, is to get our

brains working together, to come up with what does seem

logical.
21

I have a real problem with that one being only

visual on the directional signs. I think it should be

tactile and visual. An awful lot of people

who especially would be using tactile, maybe very low

vision, maybe totally blind, are traveling

independently. And any information that someone can

use for getting somewhere, especially in a closed

environment, such an inner-city train or commuter rail,

any information they can get tactilely is an absolute

benefit. Anytime there is -- keep in mind -- here is

my basic thought.

Just keep this in mind. Anytime there is

information that somebody cannot physically access, you

are actually keeping that information from that person.

And if we kind of look at it from that perspective,

maybe we should be looking at some of these that should

actually also be tactile as well as visual.

Oftentimes if you have got a sign that you may --

you may have a sign that is pointing an arrow to the

right, but if it's four feet away from someone, you

know, 7 feet, 6.5 feet in the air, they very well are

not going to be able to see it. It is that person that

could do much better with a tactile add-on to it beyond

just the visual.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Actually I included that
22

particular sign because we have that sign and variances

of it that tells the same kind of story in similar cars

at various places. And they are not tactile, which is

why I included this one as a not tactile. We have

other signs that do sort of the same job but they are

tactile and I can't tell you right now why that is the

case. But I thought that if I included the one that

was not obviously tactile then it would bring on the

discussion we're having now.

I agree. I mean, I look at the sign now and I'm

thinking when I was doing the write-ups and everything,

I don't know how that one fell through the cracks here

because we were -- gosh, it has been at least 10 years

now. We were very diligently trying to go through our

signs, which is what created a lot of the tactile

signs. They are certainly not required today, but we

were trying to be logical about it.

And to me this falls into that category. So for

my railroad I would say, absolutely, it makes sense to

have those as tactile signs as well.

CHAIR PACHECO: I think it makes a lot of sense

for anybody who has low vision because I really hate

walking into the wrong person's bedroom. You really

need to know where you're going. I might can see the

door, but maybe not the C on it. I might mistake for a
23

G, something like that.

MS. MAZZ: Terry, can I ask a couple of points of

clarification and also explain why in the built

environment we don't require directional signs to be

tactile.

CHAIR PACHECO: Go for it.

MS. MAZZ: In the built environment, we don't

require directional signs to be tactile because they

proliferate everywhere. They are all over the

building. And there is no cuing mechanism that we can

think of that would enable a person to reliably find

that sign.

That may not be true on a rail vehicle, which is a

pretty linear arrangement. And if, in fact, your

directional signs can be located in a reliable way so

that someone who is walking from the dining car knows

where to look to see "am I going the right direction

toward rooms 1-10 versus A-E? I can check the sign."

Then the reason for not making directional signs

accessible in the built environment may not apply on a

rail vehicle, if you can find a reliable location.

The second observation I wanted to make is that

the sign to your room, that designates your room in the

built environment would not be considered a directional

sign.
24

CHAIR PACHECO: That's true.

MS. MAZZ: It would be considered a designation

sign and it would be required to be accessible because

the doorway to your room is that cuing mechanism, that

tactile cue that you would find. If you were totally

blind with your cane, you would find the doorway and

you would look for the latch side of the doorway for

your sign. Or on the rail car you might look on the

door for your sign because the door is typically going

to slide back and forth and not open in your face.

So just with that in mind, the decision, of

course, is yours. But if you do recommend making the

directional signs accessible, it might be useful to

also recommend some consistent location criteria as

well.

MR. MALDARI: I agree with that. I know we said

that a few times. If you are going to have a tactile

sign you really need to identify an area.

What is troubling me about directional signs, is

that it also includes exit signs and arrows. And

currently in our equipment we have a lot of exit signs

to meet emergency exit sign, signage requirements and

they are all over the place. They are not in one

location; they are up high, they are down low,

sometimes they are not reachable. And generally we put
25

them in the most visible area that we can fit them,

considering whatever other equipment is in the area.

So every car is different as to what is in the way

in the vestibule or what is in the way of the end

compartment. It is where you can fit these. So there

is real really a visual cue. And trying to make it in

an area consistently depends the layout of the car.

A sign like this with rooms when you are walking

into a sleeping car, seems to me that you can make that

particular sign in a specific location when you went

through a car because you are expecting to have this

type of directional sign.

But when you are talking about exit signs -- and

they could be high and they could be low and they are

all over the place, and typically may not always be

within reach. I think is a mistake to require all

those to be tactile as well.

CHAIR PACHECO: You bring up a good point, Frank,

and I want to ask Marsha a question I'm not familiar

with. I, by no means, am a sign expert.

Is it possible to do something like -- and I'm not

saying this is a solution for this, but I am just

wondering in general terms, is it possible to do

something like if you're going to have a sign that one

can't touch tactilely, then can we require an
26

additional sign that could be reached tactilely?

MS. MAZZ: Thank you for that question.

In the built environment, building codes typically

require exit signs high up.

CHAIR PACHECO: Yeah.

MS. MAZZ: For example, above your exit door.

CHAIR PACHECO: Yeah, that is what I'm saying.

MS. MAZZ: And there are two different kinds of

exit signs. There are directional ones that have

arrows on it that says "go this way to find the exit"

or there is one at exit or exit discharge. And those

are typically, you know, right at the door of the space

that you want to access to get out of the building.

So in the ADA standards, those signs that

designate the exit access, the exit discharge, the exit

itself, the stairway, in the case of a multi-story

building, have to be tactile.

Because you can't comply with the building codes

illuminated overhead sign requirement and be tactile

within reach, you end up with two signs. You end up

with the overhead exit box, if you will, you know the

big box, the big glowing box, and the smaller exit sign

at the exit door.

But the directional signs are not required in a

building to, you know, to be tactile because, again, we
27

don't know how to make them findable along your exit

path reliably and we certainly don't want to slow

anyone down exiting looking for them.

And there are a lot of new technologies now with

low level exit path markings that are down on the

baseboard and things like that. Although you may have

to crawl out of a building, we don't want only blind

people to have to crawl out of a building.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Marsha, thank you for that. We

have within the rail industry, we have the APTA

guidelines and of course the 49CFR 238. And in some

cases things that are presented by APTA become rule by

default because it is an industry association. So the

FRA adopts them without ever really going through a

formal process because the industry has adopted them.

So what we have as an example is the -- I'll have

to look back. But, just generally, we don't

necessarily have way-finding elements that point you in

a direction to an exit. There are some cases where we

do have those. I think the Acela may have some tactile

elements.

But, to give you an example, when you are stand in

a vestibule at the end of a car, if you walk in that

area and let the door close behind you, if you happen

to be at the end of the train, there are going be four
28

doors, all of which will have exit signs on them. And

the signs are down low and they are also up higher.

They are down low because in a rail car, because

it is a rolling hotel or environment, you can have

smoke issues. And the idea has been if you had to go

low, you can find your way to an exit. In those cases

they are very large letters, they are tactile and they

are in those multiple locations.

We also have -- to add the to complexity of it, we

have three escape scenarios from a car. The first

thing we want folks to do is go to the adjacent car.

The second thing we want them to do is to exit from the

doors, if they are available, depending on the

situation. And then the third thing we want them to do

is pull the windows out and escape.

So when you start talking about exits and

emergency exits, it becomes a very complex thing and we

start walking into, you know, other agencies and

advisory groups' territory. Just to make the point for

us, at least at Amtrak, we make those tactile and

visual and they are the scale that the APTA guidelines

recommend.

CHAIR PACHECO: That's good to know. Thank you.

I think if we look at the table we have, we have

exit signs under the directional exit and then we have
29

them on the --

MR. PECHT: Designation.

MR. MALDARI: You have it covered in two

locations. It is a little confusing.

CHAIR PACHECO: Well, no. I think it kind of fits

into what Blair was just saying. We should really have

it in the location, in emergency and in direction,

perhaps.

MS. MAZZ: I mean, that is the same as in a

building. In a building we have directional signs,

which are not required to be tactile, and we have the

designation signs at the exit door that are required to

be tactile.

So they do appear in two different places and they

are two different types of signs in a building.

What I heard Blair say is that you may not have

very many, if any, directional exit signs; in other

words, "go this way for the exit." But you have a

variety of designations at the exit door and at the

means of escape, which would be typically a window.

MS. FAIRHALL: Perhaps either as we go through

this discussion today or when we cycle back it would be

useful to identify those kinds of signs that might be

regulated by other schemes and flag that so that down

the road we can make sure that we are not inconsistent
30

or -- at least be aware of the kinds of requirements we

are imposing so that we are not inconsistent, that they

all working together.

MS. MAZZ: Good point, Lisa. Because I heard

Blair mention that the low level exit signs are

tactile. And I asked myself whether the APTA guide

requires them to be tactile or they simply are by

practice.

MR. MALDARI: APTA guide doesn't require them to

be tactile. I guess it depends on if you have an

opportunity to make it tactile or not. The concern I

have is when you make a regulation that require all

signs of that type to be tactile. You end up putting

less signs out because you don't have space to meet all

the requirements.

In our vestibule, the vestibule of a car, we have

at least 10 signs that designate the location of the

exit with an arrow, 10 signs. If we had all 10 signs

having raised lettering and braille, we couldn't fit

the 10 signs.

I guess what I'm saying is, I know you're thinking

practically at times, gee, at least one of the signs

should be raised lettering and braille and certainly a

few of those signs could be. But when a regulation is

written that all signs of this type have to meet this
31

requirement, it means that all 10 of those signs have

to meet the requirement.

And part of the reason for having so many signs is

that they are photo luminescent and you are trying to

light up the area with emergency light as well.

So if there is some way to have a sign that is

part of that and doesn't meet that requirement, that is

something that maybe a little easier to meet the

requirement for.

When you designate a type of sign as a directional

sign that every single one that exists needs to provide

that tactile ability, then that is very difficult to

have all the signs.

MS. MAZZ: Frank, are there situations where a

door in a vestibule would not be an exit or would not

be labeled as an exit? Would that be a rarer situation

and maybe one that presents an opportunity?

MR. MALDARI: Wouldn't be an exit when it is

locked out for some reason.

MS. MAZZ: But it would be labeled as one even so?

MR. MALDARI: It would be, yes. So all the doors

would be an exit. And, as Blair mentioned before,

there is a hierarchy in what we are asking our

passengers to do in an emergency. Our first priority

is to make sure they listen to what the crew is saying
32

because you may want to exit the side door, you may

want to go in the next car, but you may want to stay

exactly where you are. And that is when the crew's

communication with the passengers is important. And

that is going to be a big part of the VMS stuff. You

don't want the person to do anything automatically.

MS. MAZZ: The thing that has got me a little

perplexed is for a sighted person, every door in a

vestibule is likely to have some designation as an exit

door and that person has to use other information to

decide which one to go out. Right?

MR. MALDARI: That is true. Good point.

MS. MAZZ: Instructions of the crew members or,

you know, judgment of the ground conditions or

something.

MR. MALDARI: Very good point. Because, I mean,

the end door is an exit door and so is the side door.

MS. MAZZ: And so is the door you just went

through.

MR. MALDARI: And the door you go through is

dependent on direction, is that what you are saying,

right?

MS. MAZZ: And from what you said, so is the door

you just walked through, because you said all four

doors are labeled "exit."
33

MR. MALDARI: Correct.

MS. MAZZ: You just left the fire behind you, you

just walked through that door and you get in the

vestibule and you turn around and the door you just

came through is also labeled "exit." You are not going

to go back through it if you know that is the door you

just came through.

MR. MALDARI: True. And being there is two doors,

one on each side at least, one may be adjacent to a

platform and the other one wouldn't be. Even though it

is designated as an exit door you may not want to go

out through that one.

MS. MAZZ: I don't think you will find that in a

building.

MR. MALDARI: Right.

MS. MAZZ: For example, you have an exit stair,

you won't find an exit sign on the interior of the

stair, except at exit discharge where you are meant to

go out. You are never going to ever be instructed to

come back in toward the building.

CHAIR PACHECO: But, on the other hand, with a

train, the people in the car in front of you, the door

on your car could well be an exit if I'm coming out of

my car into the vestibule, your door could well be my

exit.
34

MS. MAZZ: And we would call it a horizontal exit

in buildings, where you exit one rated area into

another rated area that is separated and protected from

the other area. Maybe trains function a little more

like that.

MR. SLAUGHTER: I am so glad that we are all

experiencing the dilemma of the railroad because we are

taking a building and rolling it down a railroad track

and sometimes it leaves the track. So it does present

a lot of extreme challenges.

Folks ever wonder what people who work at MTA and

Jersey Transit and Amtrak do, this is the stuff we do,

trying to think of every possibility.

But one of the things that we do, we provide an

emergency information card, passenger safety card, we

call it, much like what you have on an aircraft, and

there is a whole litany of information there.

One of the conditions you can have, as Frank

mentioned, you can get to the end of the train and the

last door of the train that would normally take you to

the next car is going to be locked. The door that

takes you into the baggage car on a long distance train

has to be locked by law now because we carry firearms

as required by law. So then you are going to have to

use some of the other options.
35

We also have the unfortunate situation where if

you have a severe enough incident, the car that you're

in ceases to be part of the train and is now its own

independent vehicle cut off with communications with

the rest of the train. And at that point you hope that

people's logic and the things we provided will get them

safely off the car.

Fortunately, when you have those situations very

seldom any chance of fire or an immediate

life-threatening conditions.

But still, suddenly, you now have all three exit

scenarios available and possibly necessary, which is

the doors, you moving out of the end door, out of the

side doors and out of the windows. We try to avoid

those things.

MS. MAZZ: Good.

MR. PECHT: Can I make a recommendation, Terry.

Can we sort of simplify just the first pass-through of

this table to sort of say, okay, let's just sort of a

look at -- if you want tactile -- directional signs to

be tactile, let's just put an S there and then we can

go back later to say, okay, do we want all of them? Do

we want some of them? Do we want specific one s and

how do you want to do that? And leave that discussion

for the next pass-through.
36

In other words, you could say -- when you start

indicating specifics, you can say "if a door is

designated as an exit, it shall have at least one sign

that does this and be located in this area." And then

discuss where other signs --

Honestly, if you are talking about a sign that is

meant to be read when I'm on my hands and knees, I

don't know how you designate that if I have to read it

tactilely. What is the height range for somebody -- I

don't know what the human anthropometrics for people on

their hands and knees trying to reach in front of them.

You know, I don't know that number at this point in

time. We have to sort of look at that.

MS. MAZZ: In fact, that was an objection with the

building code when the manufacturer of the luminescent

signs brought them before the building code as a

suggest for people who are blind. And people said,

"How do you know people who are blind can read those at

that level?" Because essentially at floor level you

end up reading upside down because of the angle of your

hand. I don't have an answer to that.

MR. MALDARI: I think that is a real good point.

What Jim was saying I think is a good idea. I think in

this particular instance there are some directional

signs which could be tactile and visual and some that
37

shouldn't. Maybe there is a way of indicating it with

a special letter here -- I don't know how you want to

do it -- that tactile and visual should apply to some

of these directional signs but not all of them. And

then we can move on through and argue about which ones

should and shouldn't be at a later date. I think that

would be a good way to get going.

CHAIR PACHECO: Okay. I think that sounds like a

great idea as well. Anyone who wants to put a note on

your copy of the table so that you know what it means

as well so it is most familiar to you. If you just

want to put some, whatever, let's do that and let's

keep going and see what we come up with.

Some of them probably shouldn't be -- I won't say

shouldn't be required. Go ahead and slap my hand.

MS. MAZZ: No, no, no.

CHAIR PACHECO: The next one on here was

designation signs for spaces including exit signs. I

think this is where we are talking the actual exit sign

as opposed to direction to the exit sign. And

designations of other spaces as well.

I feel like we are living just on commuter rails

and trains, but this is one area where I don't see that

we really have much on any of the other types of

trains, the other types of vehicles than those.
38

Again, I think this probably is primarily the --

MR. MALDARI: Bathroom sign, restroom is probably

only on a commuter or long distance train. Exit sign

could be on any --

CHAIR PACHECO: You're right, exit signs can be on

any. I'm thinking as far as the other spaces, I'm

sorry, as far as the other spaces part of this category

is concerned.

MS. MAZZ: Take the low hanging fruit first,

things like the cafe car if you label them or the

restrooms if you label them.

CHAIR PACHECO: Right. Most all of those are

inner-city vehicles. You are not going to run into

those probably on a rapid rail or a subway car or a

light rail vehicle.

MS. MAZZ: I'm not sure it really matters. I

think the question would be more a matter of do you

want room designations, for example, to be tactile. If

so, then do you want to recommend that wherever they

are provided, for whatever reason, they be accessible.

Or can you think of situations where they might be

provided on a particular mode and they shouldn't be

required to be accessible.

My guess is for room designations, you won't be

able to think of a situation where a room designation,
39

if provided, shouldn't be accessible. But you may be

able to think of plenty of situations where an exit

designation, if provided, maybe not all of them have to

be accessible. And you may want to approach that

differently or you may want to approach it differently

for different modes. I don't know.

CHAIR PACHECO: Exactly. What I was getting at is

we are pretty much not talking about rapid -- always I

was getting at, so let's just start primarily on the

inner-city, commuter, that type of situation, the types

of spaces on other vehicles. That is what I was going

to ask.

Other than inner-city and commuter, can anyone

think of any spaces on other types of vehicles on rapid

rail? Am I forgetting something.

MR. ROMAN: No, on rapid rail or light rail or

street cars, there really are no other passenger spaces

separate from the seating area. So this wouldn't apply

to those cars.

MS. MAZZ: But if they did happen to put a

restroom on one of those cars for whatever reason, then

you will have an accessible sign. The provision

doesn't apply if you don't have a restroom or you don't

have a separate seating area. But if you did, it would

apply.
40

I think you don't want to waste too much time on

"should it apply here or should it not apply here" if

it is a where provided provision, if you see what I'm

saying.

MR. SLAUGHTER: But in the case of a rapid rail

where you have a designated seating area or space that

is accessible, that is a designated space, would you

not identify that with -- would that need to be --

MS. MAZZ: That is a great example --

CHAIR PACHECO: Excellent example.

MS. MAZZ: -- of one of those decision points you

want to make. Should designated accessible seating

wherever it is provided, have a tactile sign.

MR. PECHT: I will put that down in the next

category.

<<<: The sign designating the seating area are

above a seat, which may make it a little difficult for

somebody to reach.

MR. MALDARI: Right now the handicapped or the

wheelchair parking area, handicap parking area, is not

required to be designated at all. Some people -- most

people, most authorities do designate them by putting

the accessibility decal adjacent to them.

I think it would be clearer with this particular

item if we identified for a specific types of these
41

destination signs with the required not all -- maybe we

can list the ones that we know. Because really it is

the bathroom, it's the restroom and cafe area maybe.

Maybe we can just list the ones it applies to so it is

clear and exclude the ones that we know would be

problematic.

MR. SLAUGHTER: We have sort of taken the idea

that if it is a place that a passenger can go and

occupy, then we have a designated with a visual and

tactile sign. So, in other words, if it's they're own

room, the restroom, dressing room, you know, anything

that is available for passengers, then it's identified

with a visual and tactile sign.

Other places like electric lockers are locked

anyway. We don't put tactile signs on that because you

can't get in there anyway. Not relevant.

MS. MAZZ: Do you put tactile signs on seat and

row designations? In other words, if I reserve a seat,

row 1/seat A -- and I'm not talking about accessible

seating, but just -- you know --

MR. SLAUGHTER: All seats.

MS. MAZZ: So you do have tactile?

MR. SLAUGHTER: We have hundreds of them. Yes,

all our designated seats, sleeping row designations are

all visual and tactile.
42

MS. MAZZ: That is an example of something that is

not required in the ADA standards as specific exemption

for seat and row designations. So that may be a change

that the committee wants to recommend.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Here is the difference and maybe

it is less relevant to short trip rapid rail

situations. Obviously with some a few exceptions, I

think one of the shortest trips you can take on Amtrak

is 20 minutes, but it is generally a lot longer.

So if you leave your seat and you are at row2/seat

F and you know that, then you make your way to the

restroom and you come back, those seat placards are on

the leading edge of the luggage rack so you can find

them. Your hand runs right over them and you can find

your way back to your seat. That was our thinking with

room designations.

MR. MALDARI: The designations that you have for

the seating locations, does it meet the current

building code requirements for tactile signs?

MR. SLAUGHTER: When we were developing these,

because there were no hard requirements, the gentleman

that was doing a lot of the sign work reached out I

believe at that point to the Access Board and to people

from the community to try to get some sense of what do

we do when we have limited space.
43

I think most of our letters are in the half inch

range so they are at the extreme low end of the tactile

lettering range but we use typically braille to

braille. So that is what we did.

And some of those instances we could go with

larger letters and not jeopardize anything. But that

was the way we went at it with no other firm guidance

from the Access Board, other than that because there

was nothing really to lean back on. We thought it was

necessary.

MR. MALDARI: Well, I think doing it is good. And

if you have the flexibility with size, it might be a

little easier to do. I'm just worried that if you have

this requirement that we currently have for the size of

the tactile, tactile and visual decals that you may

have some problems in certain instances, maybe,

depending on the equipment.

MR. SLAUGHTER: And I think that is where as we

move down through this list, it is going to be

important to the point you made before. Let's go ahead

and tag some of these things and then we will come

back. I think the burden, Frank, will really be on

those of us from the authorities and the operators to

look at our situations and to bring those back for

further discussion.
44

But if we could move through and say generally,

yes, we agree that it makes sense for these things to

be visual and tactile and then we can come back, I

think, with specific situations that we could further

discuss. That would be my way of going at it.

MR. HART: I'm going to offer that I will pull the

-- if we use the viable coaches that MBTA is just now

receiving from -- I will pull that signage. I will try

to get you guys photos of every tactile sign that we

have on new cars. I will tell you that most of them

are tactile. We do not have accessible signs on the

equipment lockers, per se.

But to Frank's point, I think now we can see

overwhelming -- actually when we sit down and do it, it

is not quite as bad as it may seem, but I will get you

guys that stuff. It is going to take me a couple of

weeks to do it here in Boston.

CHAIR PACHECO: Thank you, Chris. Chris can you

answer a question I'm curious about. The MBTA has done

an awful lot in Boston in making a lot of their

information audible. Do you know if they use induction

loop up there for that, do you know?

MR. HART: I will tell you that we were not --

very rarely. We do not have an installed induction

loop. So we opted out on the rail. With that said, we
45

know that things go through rail induction loop. So we

just have to get the right technical stats and then

we'll figure it out.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: There is no place, to the

best of my knowledge, in the United States that has

used an induction loop on the rail car. The only

places we are aware of are in Scandinavian countries

such as Sweden; Ireland, Australia. Spain has it

specifically in its regulation that it specifically

says "induction loop." I forwarded the information to

David Capozzi recently detailing all the information.

I'm just not aware how to put this in an accessible

format, but I sent David the details, assuming the

Access Board knows the appropriate way to administer

everything.

MS. MAZZ: Janice, in the future please send your

communications to the RVAAC inbox.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Well, I sent it to David

about a different issue.

MS. MAZZ: I understand, but if you send them

straight to the RVACC inbox that's our central point

for the committee's information to be distributed to

the committee. If you do that, we can take a look at

them and see if we can render them accessible.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Happy to do that. Marsha,
46

just so you know, it was not meant to circumvent --

MS. MAZZ: Oh, I understand. I understand.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: It was an issue with MTA in

New York who has advised me that they will not put an

induction loop on their buses even though they

previously committed to and did a pilot program. And

they will not put it on the rail unless the regulations

require them to. So it was more in the form of a

complaint that David was cc'd. I don't want you to

think I was circumventing anyone.

MS. MAZZ: No, I don't.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: It is more of I don't believe

that MTA of New York is requiring regulation to move

this forward. That was not the impression I received

from the Long Island Railroad people at one of the

meetings. So it was more in the form of a complaint

but I will do so going forward.

MS. MAZZ: Okay. Thank you.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: You're welcome.

CHAIR PACHECO: Paul, I think you wanted to say

something.

MR. HART: Just so you know, David and I have

requested the technical stats they are using. And I'm

going to try to track down the Scandinavian as well.

MR. BEATTY: Janice had given us the Spain rules a
47

few weeks after the first RVAAC meeting, which we

placed on the electronic, regulations.gov. So if you

are interested in that, you can go to the

regulations.gov site through the RVAAC website. And

when you go there, click on "supporting documents" and

you will see something that says "post first meeting,

hearing access program material." And there you can

see the things that Janice asked me to make available

to the committee, which we did send out a link on and

an email and one of the attachments regards the Spanish

rules.

CHAIR PACHECO: Thanks, Paul. Let me just jump in

here for one second about emailing things that are

accessible. That's not anything terribly tricky. I am

just going to give you all a very, very quick thumbnail

for sending something in to see that it is accessible.

As a general rule of thumb, if you do a Word

document, it is going to be pretty accessible. If you

cut and paste a PDF in it, that is a different issue.

If you are going to put a picture like Blair did with

these, where he inserted a graphic, put a picture in

the file, just put a brief description, just like

Blair's. Blair's file is an excellent example of what

you can do to make a file very, very accessible to

anybody. It is very accessible visually, it is very
48

accessible for anyone to read it from a text

perspective.

If you have anything that you have any questions

on or you want to submit, please send it in and we can

work on it.

I had said to the committee back in the very

beginning, that's what I do for a living, is making

documents accessible and putting them in alternate

format. And I had said from the very beginning I would

be more than willing at no cost to the committee to

make anything accessible that needed to -- that I could

help them with at all.

So please don't hesitate. If you have got a

picture of some kind of a sign and you think it would

be a good one for us, just give us a brief description

with it and send it in with the description. We can

take care of it from there.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Thank you, Terry. That would

be really helpful to me because sometimes the document

that I have are coming in PDF format from other

countries and I don't have the ability to change

documents that I don't own.

CHAIR PACHECO: That is where the problem comes

in. So many PDF documents are not accessible.

Virtually any Word document is, as long as you cut and
49

paste a graphic into it without a description.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Right. These are fully PDF

documents. Should I just send them to you directly?

CHAIR PACHECO: As long as it is not really long,

if you want --

MR. PECHT: Send it to RVAAC, to Paul.

CHAIR PACHECO: Jim is saying send them to the

RVAAC and he knows how to do it as well. If you send

it to RVAAC they can deal with it from there.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: What address should I use for

the RVAAC?

MR. BEATTY: Use the RVAAC@Access-Board.gov, the

basic email address I send out to everybody.

One other thing, it is great to get things in, but

just to point out, that when we get things last minute,

it is not always making sure it is accessible, is one

of the things, there is a time constraint. In general

anything used in the subcommittee has to be placed on

the web. Our web guys have been really helpful in

dealing with last minute things, but we can only go to

the well so many times on the last minute.

Some people sent me some good information, in my

opinion, this morning, but it was just too late to go

through the process and even speak to the Chair here

and possibly put it on the web. So keep that in mind.
50

CHAIR PACHECO: Okay. Getting back to our table,

I believe we are making progress today with the table.

We are at least discussing what these things are.

Designation signs for spaces, we just talked about

that one.

The designation signs for elements. Jim, remind

me again the difference between a space and an element.

MR. PECHT: A space would be a room. An element

would be like a fire extinguisher or a telephone. This

is a sign for where the phone is, this is a sign for

where the fire extinguisher is. That would be an

element. Seat and row would be a space.

MS. MAZZ: If you have a sign in there that says

cups, that's an element.

CHAIR PACHECO: Yes, the cups would be an element.

I guess where I am getting a little confused is

between elements and features. I think it is a fuzzy

line there. Some are features and some are elements.

MR. PECHT: I'm speaking ADAAG. I'm sorry. That

is just sort of me.

MS. MAZZ: Features is really not a term we use

very much in ADAAG. I think features and elements tend

to be kind of synonomous. You're right, features kind

of further blurs the line.

CHAIR PACHECO: Sorry.
51

MR. PECHT: We actually define element.

CHAIR PACHECO: I might know a couple of

languages, but ADAAG is not one of my better ones, I

guess.

MS. MAZZ: We find a lot of people don't know it.

CHAIR PACHECO: Non-emergency operational signs,

that is the area, if I'm correct. And I can see it is

just using visual for this. That is the area that is

employees only, the janitor's college, that type of

thing, I believe is what we decided is in there.

MR. PECHT: Non-emergency operational signs that

would be something like the doors is operated like

this, this is how the lock is, this is directions about

how you operate a thing.

MS. FAIRHALL: The example in the package is how

to operate the faucet.

MR. GAGNÉ: I found a sign on the Internet for

Amtrak quiet cars. Which category would that fall in?

Would it be a destination sign for space or something

else? Just curious.

MS. MAZZ: It depends on whether that's the sign

that tells you that the quiet car is this way. Let's

say I'm in the cafe and there is a sign that says

"quiet car" and it points to the back of the train.

That's a directional sign. In the building standards
52

it would not be required to be tactile.

But once I get to the quiet car, if there is a

designation at the quiet car that says "this is the

quiet car, you are now in the quiet car," that is a

designation sign and it would be required to be

tactile.

MR. GAGNÉ: Because it doesn't look like it is a

directional signs. It says please refrain from loud

talking and using cellphones in this car.

MS. MAZZ: Yes and that is rules of conduct and

rules of conduct are not required to be tactile in a

buildings guidelines. Only the name of the space, the

designation of the space, whether it is a name or a

number or some other way of designating the space has

to be tactile.

So bear in mind that the information you get in a

building in tactile format is very, very, very minimal.

MR. GAGNÉ: So in that context, would quiet car --

part of the sign says "quiet car" so that part has to

be tactile while the rest of the instructions can

remain as a regular visual sign; is that correct?

MS. MAZZ: An accessible visual sign because it is

information about the space.

Do you want to correct me on this.

MR. PECHT: I would probably put that in
53

operational.

MS. MAZZ: Jim says he would probably throw that

in operational. The rules of conduct are not really

required to be, you know, made tactile at all. And in

terms of visual, something like "no smoking" is a rule

of conduct. It is not the label of the space. It is

not the -- it is how you behave within the space.

MR. SLAUGHTER: André brings up a very interesting

sign. When we have a quiet car in a train, it can be

any coach that happens to get made up into that train.

What happens now the conductor now carries the -- there

is actually a very nicely printed paper, typically,

sign. And in some cases a static applique that they

place on the window of the door of the car as you

approach it. So with the exception of Acela, the quiet

car moves around. So when we -- I'm curious what

people think about how we handle that.

Obviously it needs some designation but it is also

part of the announcements that are made. The conductor

will point out where in the train the quiet car is. So

I'm not sure how we do that. Obviously with something

like the Acela where the quiet car is the same car over

and over again, it is much easier. But in a locomotive

and individual passenger car, railroad like Amtrak, it

becomes a bit more difficult.
54

MS. MAZZ: So you're saying you don't have a sign

that says "this is the quiet car"? It is really

communicated verbally?

MR. SLAUGHTER: Well, no, it's both. You take any

coach in Amtrak on any given day in Washington or New

York or Boston, when the train is put together and they

put in five coaches and a food service car, or whatever

it happens to be, and a business class car, the coach

that happens to be next to the business class car is

going to be designated the quiet car and the conductor

literally has signs that he takes and places in the car

to designate that car for that trip.

MS. MAZZ: Temporary signs, then?

MR. SLAUGHTER: Yes.

MS. MAZZ: Okay. And under the ADA, standards,

temporary signs, 30 days or less, whatever it is, are

not required to be accessible.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Okay. But it is also -- so that

we are not leaving people uninformed, that is also one

of the things that the conductor announces after each

departure. The conductor would describe where things

are on the train and that is included where the cafe

car is, where the quiet car is.

CHAIR PACHECO: I'm wondering -- this is to Blair

but it is also to all the other vehicle people on the
55

call. Do any -- I understand how it is on Amtrak. I'm

thinking about other types of -- other vehicles that

also have, for instance, a quiet car or a family car.

Now we are getting into planes, I guess, that have no

families, that kind of thing.

MS. MAZZ: Really?

CHAIR PACHECO: Yeah. Another issue. I guess my

question is, are we using VMS's for a lot of that, for

any of that on any other vehicles besides Amtrak now?

Is that something that should be going under VMS too?

MR. MALDARI: Terry, to answer your question, we

just use audio announcements right now. We just

started designating the quiet car, typically lead car.

Trying to use VMS, understanding our current system, to

do such a thing is a pretty difficult thing to do

because it is doing other things at the same time. It

is announcing the stations. So trying to get it to say

it is the quiet car also is a little more complicated

and not set up for that.

We don't have the temporary signs. And typically

trying to get a person to do that consistently is not

an easy thing to do. Even though we have well-trained

staff, it is a repetitive type of thing. It is hard

enough to have them make an announcement consistently

it lead cars and it is not every train that has the
56

lead car, specific trains that they assign them to.

So, yeah, it is a good question. I was wondering

myself how do you make this information accessible. I

guess if it is a temporary sign, it doesn't need to be,

but I don't, you know. It is called a quiet car, but

really it is a change in the rules of conduct in that

car.

MS. HAMLIN: I think the question was more to the

point if we were thinking that everything that was

audible would also be on a VMS sign. If you could can

that, essentially, and have it preprogrammed, it may be

able to be put on a sign. So that becomes a question,

if that's doable.

MR. MALDARI: That's a good point. Typically the

way the can signs work now they go out through the

whole train. So you have to target it toward the

specific car and that is what makes it more difficult

in this instance because you are not telling the same

information to the entire train, only to a specific

car.

MS. HAMLIN: Wouldn't you want -- in other words,

if you say the third car in the train is your quiet

car, wouldn't you want that in all the cars anyway? So

somebody in the second car can say, "Oh, I want to be

in the quiet car. Let he go down there."
57

MR. MALDARI: If that -- if it is always the first

car or always the third car, I guess you could do it

that way. If it changes, you can't do it that way.

MR. PECHT: Let me jump in real quick with a

reminder that the guidelines and therefore the

standards are only going to be dealing with newly

constructed vehicles or totally remanufactured

vehicles. We are not talking about going back and

retrofitting existing stock that's out there.

So it is the question of, is it doable in a newly

designed and newly constructed car and that may be

where you want to direct your proposal as to whether or

not you want to have VMS and audible, visual and

audible, however you want to do that. And not really

worry about whether it is difficult or doable in

existing rail stock at this point in time.

MR. MALDARI: That's a good point. I think from

my understanding, a canned message is a doable type of

thing. But having an on the fly, every audio message

that comes across being displayed visually is a

difficult thing to do. I'm not sure -- just look at

what we are doing now with the card, there is somebody

correcting everything that is being said. Unless you

have somebody doing a real-time correction, an active

system of everything you say being translated into
58

text, this is not an easy thing to achieve.

So just to assume that we can get a VMS system

that will automatically put everything in a visual

format that is spoken audibly is not realistic in my

mind.

MS. HAMLIN: I understand what you're saying and I

think that some of the signs, you're right, are pretty

much static. But I have seen -- Amtrak has a system in

the station that allows for correcting on the fly. It

is Passenger Information System. I don't know it that

is translatable to the cars. Maybe it is something we

can look into or we can say something at the point that

it is doable. It should be an expectation. Technology

is going to change quickly. I wouldn't want to say

this would never happen in the future.

MR. MALDARI: But at the same time you don't want

to require something to happen that you don't know can

happen. So all I'm saying is, you want to try to do it

with the technology that exists, not with the

technology that may exist because then you are forcing

people to do something that is currently not done. The

technology that we're aware of that does exist is

canned messages. So a canned message can be created to

say, as you said, like the third car is going to be the

quiet car and you say announce it to the entire train
59

and you can possibly put it on the VMS system as well.

But if you require that everything said, then you

are making it a challenge. And do you really want a

new procurement to proceed along the lines of

developing specialized equipment that has not been used

before. It makes it a very risky proposition.

We in this industry are trying hard enough to get

existing equipment to respond reliable, rather than to

get brand new, never tried equipment to work at all.

I'm just saying, when you are working for an

audible message to be displayed, that we provide some

flexibility in the information that is displayed and be

aware that a canned message is possible now and active

text correction is not something that is functioning in

industry now on rail cars.

If you are doing it in a station, it is kind of

like what you are doing online here. You have a person

dedicated to fixing it and that is not an easy thing to

do on a rail car.

MR. HART: One of the things I would like to

suggest is that essentially -- on dual audio and visual

system. I understand what is actually available around

the world, although not necessarily frequently seen in

the U.S. market yet.

I think most of us are familiar, to a degree, with
60

a typical one-line, two-line VMS -- in Chicago, in New

York, in D.C. and that actual technology goes way

beyond that. I think it might be helpful when you guys

do have the VMS's specs to really understand what is

being used around the world and know what the

manufacturers are now providing and are looking to

provide because the technology is -- compared to what

we have in the United States.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Thanks for the reminder that we

are dealing with new cars and remanufactured cars. I'm

sure the folks at Amtrak would appreciate if I came up

with a changeable sign so that the conductor didn't

have to carry signs in their bags. Ha-ha.

In thinking about it and getting out of my

operating the railroad today mode, even for a temporary

situation for a train, it is probably not that big of a

deal to make a sign that is exposed when the car is, in

fact, the quiet car, if we are talking about new cars.

So my apologies for being archaic and not looking to

the future.

CHAIR PACHECO: I don't think anybody is being

archaic. I do think that Jim made a very good point.

I think we all live with this everyday but we don't

think about it living without us or living beyond us.

Sometimes I think it is hard to look at the future.
61

Fifteen years ago who would have thought we would be

sitting here with laptops and I-Pads and all of that.

It is a difficult issue looking into the future.

Sometimes you don't always make a hit on exactly what

the reality is going to be.

Let's just run through the rest of this table. So

everybody is kind of in the same places before we do

homework assignments.

We have got things like Non-emergency

informational signs and Non-emergency operational

signs. And then the emergency informational signs. We

need to decide what needs to be in which formats, what

kinds of Non-emergency informational signs are we

talking about. These are things for everyone to think

about, to think about what kinds of signs.

You know, I have been paying a lot more attention

to what signs are on the Metro on my way to and from

workdays. Look around and see what are the ones --

some of us work with this every day. Some of us, like

myself, take four trains a day and that's our primary

exposure to it. But let's see what we can come up with

for ideas -- I'm sorry, of examples of these and which

situations they seem are, first of all, necessary and

are they working the best they are now, what can be

improved. We need to get this in here. And that
62

brings me back to a little bit of homework.

I think we all need to take this table and put in

occurrences to us, give us examples, bring it back to

the committee. There are things -- how many topics

have we hit on today that we said, "Oh, I didn't think

of that one."

If everyone could just come up with a few things

to add to this table before we meet again, we can -- I

really think we can get through this and really move on

to our black and white tasks. And I think we can do

it -- I think we have made a tremendous amount of

headway today. We are down to our last less than 20

minutes. And I know we need to do public comments.

And we need to determine a date for our next meeting.

I want to thank you all for how well this one --

how much we have made, how well this has gone and how

much progress we really have made today. I know

sometimes it is a little hard to see the big picture,

but I really do believe we have done an awful lot

today.

Do we have any one on the phone that does want to

make -- for any public comments?

MS. THORP: Will I be able to ask a question. Not

necessarily a comment. A question I hope would be

covered today, I don't think it was. Because it's
63

about a station.

CHAIR PACHECO: You want to identify yourself,

please.

MS. THORP: My name is Kim Thorp. I'm from North

County Transit District in San Diego, California.

CHAIR PACHECO: Thank you.

MS. THORP: I just have a question about signage

on the platform, the stations. If we have a -- I think

I know the answer. If we have a visual sign, we also

have to have an audible sign. But my question is does

it have to be like that -- does the audible go with the

text automatically or could it be a push button you

would push and then get the audible of what the sign

says? Does that make sense?

CHAIR PACHECO: It does. It makes perfect sense

and I see Jim wants to answer in response.

MR. PECHT: This committee is solely looking at

vehicles and in the vehicles. We are not looking on

the architectural side at the stations that is already

covered in the ADAAG and standards and all that kind of

good stuff. So it is only the vehicles and in the

vehicles that we are talking about, as far as this

committee.

MS. THORP: Okay. I apologize. Thank you.

CHAIR PACHECO: No need for an apology. As
64

exemplified -- used as an example in the past, if you

can pick up the train and shake it and it falls out, we

are not dealing with it. But you do raise a very good

question. Unfortunately, it is not under our purview

at all.

Anyone else with any other questions, comments?

Hearing none, can we look to scheduling our next

meeting? Does Thursdays still work well for folks?

MR. MALDARI: The problem I have is we also have

the other group that is meeting regularly, the rest of

the month every Thursday, I believe. There is one

Wednesday in there, right, Paul?

MR. BEATTY: Correct. Next Thursday we have on

board circulation and the week after that, the

Wednesday, the 26th, they are meeting. Then remember

April 10 and 11 is the full RVAAC committee meeting.

MR. MALDARI: What I was getting to there is not a

lot of time left. I don't think I could support two

meetings a week just with the RVAAC. That is taking up

a lot of time. I don't know if we have time for

another meeting before the face to face.

CHAIR PACHECO: I was kind of hoping that we would

be able to bring something really good back to the

April 10 meeting.

MS. MAZZ: How much time do you need for notice,
65

Paul?

MR. BEATTY: In terms of a conference call?

MS. MAZZ: Yeah.

MR. BEATTY: Hardly anytime. So two days.

MS. MAZZ: You have to hire CART.

MR. BEATTY: Yeah, well, going through admin and

so forth.

CHAIR PACHECO: Could we do April 1? That is a

Thursday, a week before the full meeting.

MR. BEATTY: It's a Tuesday on my calendar.

MS. MAZZ: It is a Tuesday on my calendar too.

CHAIR PACHECO: I'm in the wrong month. I'm

sorry.

MR. BEATTY: I would say from an administrative

standpoint, that is enough time to logistically get

everything lined up.

MR. MALDARI: Well, why not make it the Thursday,

then, because it would be consistent with the Thursday

schedule? We don't have any meeting scheduled for the

Thursday yet, do we, Paul?

MR. BEATTY: Correct.

MR. MALDARI: Same time on Thursday.

MR. BEATTY: So I understand the Communications

Subcommittee will be meeting April 3, which is a

Thursday, from 1:00 to 3:00 p.m. eastern time. And I
66

will make the necessary logistical arrangements.

Pay attention to the RVAAC website. Because if

you have not received an email, you can look there real

quick and you can see future meetings schedules as well

as any handouts, meeting material. So go there first

before asking me but it is okay to ask me.

CHAIR PACHECO: Thank you, Paul. I don't know

what we would do without you keeping us all lined up.

MR. BEATTY: You would survive.

CHAIR PACHECO: Here is history in the making. I

think we are actually 11 minutes ahead of schedule.

Again, I want to thank you all. If everyone would just

make whatever additions. Take your table and go crazy

with it. And if you -- actually, this is what we

should do. If you could take your table and look at

that and have it back in here to us by the 27th. Is

that too short for you?

MR. PECHT: That's fine.

CHAIR PACHECO: If you could have a copy of your

table into the RVAAC, using the RVAAC email,

RVAAC@Access-Board.gov by close of business on the

27th, then we should all be able to see each others, do

a compilation and have it out in time for the next

meetings.

And with that I'm going to --
67

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: We haven't done anything yet

for hearing access because it has not come up in the

context. So I have not made any revisions to the

table, except for whatever is being discussed now. So

I won't have anything to send to you until we figure

out where to incorporate induction loop signage. So I

have nothing to add, but I don't want to look like I

have not submitted anything.

MS. MAZZ: Maybe you can make your recommendations

off the table.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'm not sure where the

appropriate table, because we haven't even planned yet

where the induction loops are going. I'm going to be

on the circle back end that we discussed during the

meeting, but first we have to figure out induction loop

and then add in signage.

MS. MAZZ: Frankly, the table you have is all

about signs. It is not about communication generally.

It's about signs. So you really haven't got before you

an instrument about making recommendations on where you

would require induction -- where you would suggest

requiring induction loops. And, Janice, it seems to

me, you know, anybody on the committee with an interest

in that subject could propose something to the

subcommittee for their consideration.
68

CHAIR PACHECO: And on that table, you had

suggested at the last meeting, and we've have included

induction loop -- it's tactile and visual, just visual,

audible, induction loop and not required.

So that absolutely brings in the opportunity to

put something in as far as an induction loop is

concerned under any of the categories, any of the types

of signage, I mean.

MS. MAZZ: She is not talking about signage.

MR. MALDARI: I don't want to speak for Janice but

I think she is saying these particular categories laid

out are not induction loop sensitive, but you would

like to have a requirement, which is separate from

these signs talking about induction loops.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Exactly. Thank you. I

appreciate -- I don't even know where to stick it in

yet because based on the pictures you sent me, nothing

seems appropriate for an induction loop. But as we

put, install or agree to induction loops, it may become

obvious but at this point it's not. I don't want to be

kind of boxed into something that may not be

appropriate.

MS. MAZZ: Janice, you are making a good point.

The chart that you have before you is all about

accessible signs in buildings and trying to provoke
69

some discussion about how it should be different for

vehicles. And so it talks about when signs have to be

tactile, when they have to meet the visual

requirements.

Your issue and the issue that I think, you know,

others will share is one about audible communications.

So you're wanting to ensure that things that are

either -- it doesn't matter whether they are

preprogrammed or they are spoken into a microphone or

whatever, that those announcements on the train are

accessible to people with hearing impairments. And in

particular your interest is in loop technologies.

So it would make sense for you to come forward to

the committee with a recommendation that would suggest

where loops should be provided on a vehicle or a set of

vehicles, you know, in the case of a train; and what

type of information should be fed into the loop system,

should it just be the canned announcements that are

already there or should it also be the live

announcements. And that is a good starting point and

other things will follow later.

It seems to me that you and HLAA and others are

the ones to make that recommendation.

We didn't have a good corollary in the building

world because in the building world the assistive
70

listening requirements in the standards themselves go

to assembly spaces where you are having a performance

or that kind of thing.

So just like on the vessels where the group talked

about vessels and where you might have loops, you want

to raise those same sort of issues with this group.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Right. The thing is I think

it is almost putting the cart before the horse. The

signage group right now is dealing with current

signage. Induction loops are going to be about future

signage based on recommendations. We need to work

through the committee and figure out what will be done

and then circle back.

I think we are going to need a category called

"new signage recommendations" because there aren't

currently recommendations and this will is going to be

the category of why we will be different than what is

recommended --

MS. MAZZ: My point, Janice, is that these are not

signs. You are not talking about signs.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Yes, we are.

MS. MAZZ: Not necessarily.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Yeah, we are.

MS. MAZZ: Because right now you have audible

announcements on trains that says, "Your next stop is
71

New Carrollton. Please exit to the front of the car."

These are purely audible; they're not visible.

And my guess is that you would like to have an

assistive listening system that transmits that audible

message to individuals who have a t-coil.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: But I need a sign that tells

me that the announcement is being made and a sign that

says there is an induction loop.

MS. MAZZ: You need a signal, you need a signal to

let people know and you spoke about that before. And

you need a sign saying there is an assistive I

listening system present.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, no. That is not

accurate. That is not accurate.

MS. MAZZ: Wait a minute. Janice, Janice, you

don't need a sign if the committee doesn't agree you

should have an induction loop system.

So the first battle, I think --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I don't think it is a battle.

MS. MAZZ: Okay. The first issue is should

induction loops be required and where. And then once

there is agreement about whether they should be

required and where, then the next issue is how do we

let people know that they are on the vehicle and how do

we let people know that they are activated.
72

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Right. So we should have a

placeholder on the list of new signs to be added to the

signage requirement. And I think we need a placeholder

because there are going to be other changes like that.

And I think we are going to need to differentiate

because we need to let the Access Board know that these

are new and maybe different from other locations of

what's required. So that part of the mandate -- if

something is different, we need to explain why we need

it and why it is different and why this is a different

situation.

So I think we need a placeholder and then we can

figure out what category it fits into. I think working

with people like Amtrak people, who will know this

falls into their category. Because, frankly, I'm not

100 percent sure which category would and, frankly, I

don't care which category it goes under, as long as we

have the right sign.

CHAIR PACHECO: As Jim pointed out earlier, we are

looking to the future here, is one point that I want

too bring up.

The second one I think we already talked about --

we didn't actually use the term "placeholder" but we

certainly can, in that we did talk about if there is an

audible loop -- an induction loop, then this is the
73

category. We mentioned a couple of different potential

categories it can belong in. It absolutely should be

added in on anyone's table who believes that, probably

most all of us.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Well, it is already in the

R&D for CalTrain and Amtrak. So it is definitely going

in.

CHAIR PACHECO: Excuse me, Janice. Can I just

finish.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Sorry.

CHAIR PACHECO: My other point was I think that --

here is my feeling on this issue of the induction loop.

Right now we are talking signs. I think the point I'm

getting from you and what Marsha just said as well, is

this is another issue of communication, which is

exactly what this committee is charged with dealing

with, is communications.

I think what we should actually be doing is not

trying to find a spot to fit it on this table any more

than a place marker. But we should be putting it back

in our S and O under our objectives and the tasks. I

think we should absolutely. And I would like to see

you write up a three or four sentence type insertion on

our task on the S and O to deal with induction loops in

all of these types of vehicles and we can add that as
74

one of the additional tasks that we have to deal with.

I mean, we have lots of them on there and I think the

induction loop should be another one that should be in

there.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I think if we just add the

words "induction loops for announcements" that pretty

much sums it up.

CHAIR PACHECO: Okay. Write up something for it

and --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I don't need to write up

anything on because it doesn't require anything more

than induction loops for announcements. It doesn't

require more than that. So I wouldn't know what else

to write up, other than "induction loop for

announcements."

CHAIR PACHECO: Okay. Great. Thank you.

Do we have any other business, any other issues to

bring up before we adjourn?

MR. SLAUGHTER: One seed I would like to plant --

and I'm sitting here staring at this faucet sign that I

provided. Some people it would be, why do you have a

sign to tell you how to use a faucet. It is because

sometimes we use a sign on trains that work on the

trains and they are not normal. They are not what we

find in everyday life so we feel the need to explain
75

them.

So I think APTA quite often in their documents one

of the examples is door latches. They say where it is

not immediately apparent how something works, then you

need to explain it. And that is a great "if then"

thing to keep in mind when folks are looking at the

list. I think there are going to be it items that

almost in any of these that you may say -- maybe

generally you would say, "Well, it doesn't need to be

tactile." But you may want to say, "But if it performs

a certain function, then it should be tactile." And I

think that would make the whole process a lot more

relevant to make sure we achieve our goal of

communicating everything that needs to be communicated

in the right way.

So I would just ask that people keep that in mind.

I think it is a good thing to carry forward.

CHAIR PACHECO: Excellent point and with that I

think we should -- with that very good attitude I think

we can call this day -- call it a day.

Thank you all, very much, and we will expect to

see everybody -- anyone who is willing to submit

information by close of business on the 27th and we

will all be back here on the third and hopefully we

will see everybody here in D.C. on the 10th, I think it
76

is, 10th and 11th.

Thank you all, very much, and have a good evening.

(Whereupon, at 3:03 p.m. the meeting was

adjourned.)