### II

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION OFFICE OF HEARINGS 1-l 

# RECEIV· D

IN THE MATTER OF 

### JAN 132015 HEARING DOCKET AERO MICRONESIA, FDMS NO. FAA-2012-0468 FAA-2012-0469 Respondent. Volume 1 Monday, December 1, 2014 Courtroom 8 U.S. District Court House 300 Ala Moana Blvd. Honolulu, Hawaii The above-entitledmatter came on for hearing, pursuant to notice, at 12:36 p.m. BEFORE: THE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GOODWIN, Administrative Law Judge

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Complainant DON BOBERTZ, ESQ. of: Federal Aviation Administration Western-Pacific Region Office of Regional Counsel AWP-7.7 P.O. Box 92007 Los Angeles, CA 90009-2007 (310) 725-3454 don.bobertz®faa.gov On Behalf of the Respondent MICHAEL QUINN, pro se of: Aero Micronesia 156 Diablo Road Suite 203 Danville, CA 94526 (925) 362-4430 mikequinn1@earthlink.net

NEAL R. GROSS 1-2

(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-3 CONTENTS WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS CLARENCE KANAE 10 34 CATHERINE FLORES 60 80 MICHAEL QUINN 104 116 Exhibit No. Document Administrator A-1 Asia Pacific Load Planner Weight Manifest A-2 Photo of Engine as shipped on March 25th, 2011 A-3 Airway Bill A-4 Asia Pacific Airlines Cargo Manifest A-5 Document referring to the weight of Pallet 72217 A-6 Document referring to the weight of Pallet 72083 A-7 Copy of Tan Holdings website A-8 FAA Compliance and Enforcement Program 2153(b) Appendix B A-9 Photo of Engine as weighed A-10 Asia Pacific Load Planner and Weight Manifest dated April 3rd, 2011

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ID'd Rec'd

16 18 16 19 21 24 21 24

21 24 21 24 28 29

30 76 127

123 126

(202) 234-4433Exhibit No. Document Administrator A-ll Asia Pacific Load Planner and Weight Manifest A-12 Respondent R-1

R-2 Mr. Quinn's April 20th, 2011 reply to the Letter of Investigation Clear copy of Pages 6 of 9 and 7 of 9 of Exhibit R-1

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.. NW WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 1-4 ID'd Rec'd

123 126 123

44 51

(202) 234-44331-5

1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (12:36 p.m.) 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: For the record, this 4 is two cases of Aero Micronesia, FAA docket 5 number 2012-0468 and 2012-0469. Counsel, you 6 want to identifyyourself for the record, please? 7 MR. BOBERTZ: Don Bobertz, counsel for 8 the Complainant, the FAA Administrator. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. And Mr. Quinn, 10 you want to identify yourself, please? 11 MR. QUINN: Yes. Mike Quinn, 12 President of Aero Micronesia and Respondent, I 13 guess. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. As you all 15 know, these are informal hearings, althoughwe do 16 follow formal rules, the rules of procedure. I'm 17 going to ask you during the course of the hearing 18 if the court reporter hears something he doesn't 19 understand, just raise your hand and we'11 20 attempt to spell it for you either at that time 21 or other appropriate time. 22 If as we go through the case there's

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### 1 anything that should be considered confidential, 2 let me know and we can go off the record, treat 3 that separately, or I can seal all or parts of 4 the record. 5 

### The Court's particularly concerned 6 about personal identifiable information like 7 

### social security numbers, phone numbers. Please 8 make sure that any of the exhibits and documents 9 that you submit have any personal identifying 10 

### information redacted. Have the witnesses use 11 business addresses and so forth. 12 I've got a hearing disability, so if 13 I ask you to repeat something, don't take it 14 personally. And for the court reporter, I only 15 

### need a digital copy of the transcript. If you 16 need a hard copy, just clear that with the court 17 reporter. 18 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Digital will be fine. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: And then finally, I 20 don't care how you mark exhibits as long as you 21 don't use the same numeration. So Mr. Bobertz, 22 we had the court room until 5 o'clock, and then

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### 1 if need be, we can start at 7:45 in the morning. 2 I had talked before you got here, Mr. 3 

### Quinn, about ways to expedite it. There are 4 

### ways, if there's testimony that's going to be 5 

### replicated in both cases, we can copy over some 6 

### of the testimony, assuming that that's okay with 7 

### you. 8 

### Everybody's going to have a full 9 

### opportunity to cross examine. Mr. Bobertz, did 10 you want to make an opening statement? 11 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Briefly, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 13 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, the evidence 14 

### will show that Aero Micronesia prepared an 15 inaccurate manifest by showing on the load 16 planner weight manifest that the weight of an 17 

### engine it was transporting was spread over three 18 

### cargo zones in the aircraft, when in fact it was 19 

### located only in one single zone, a violation of 20 FAR 121-665. 21 And the evidence will also show that 22 the weight of the engine exceeded the placarded

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### 1 weight allowance for that cargo zone that it was 2 placed in, a violation of 91.9(a) 3 The Administrator will call Aviation 4 Safety InspectorClarence Kanae who conductedthe 5 investigation in this case, and obtained many of 6 the documents in this case to discuss his 7 

### investigation in the case. 8 

### And we will also call UnitedAirlines, 9 previously Continental Airlines, Guam Warehouse 10 SupervisorCatherine Flores. And Ms. Flores will 11 testify about the Continental shipping process 12 and documentation. 13 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. Quinn, you 14 can make an opening statement now if you want to, 15 or you can wait until the beginningof your case. 16 It's your call. 17 MR. 

### QUINN: Just briefly, Judge 18 

### Goodwin. It's our view that the FAA has been a 19 little overzealous in these cases. This never 20 should have dragged on. They violated their own 21 FAA procedures and are trying to hold Asia 22 Pacific to a standard that's basically not

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234·44331-9 1 possible. 2 And aside from the specific charges, 3 there's some additional factors with respect to 4 the way the regional FAA legal staff has handled 5 these cases that at some point will have to be 6 addressed. And I think that piece overlaps both 7 cases. You referred to that. We maybe could do 8 that last. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Mr. 10 Bobertz, do you want to call your first witness? ll MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. The 12 Administrator calls Aviation Safety Inspector 13 Clarence Kanae. 14 MR. KANAE: Good afternoon, Your 15 Honor. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: You want to come over 17 here? If you'll stand and raise your right hand. 1 8 WHEREUPON, 19 CLARENCE KANAE 20 was called as a witness by Counsel for the 21 Administrator and, having been first duly sworn, 22 assumed the witness stand, was examined and

(202) 234·4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-10 1 testified as follows: 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. And 3 would you state your full name for the record and 4 spell your first and last name. 5 THE WITNESS: Sure. My name is 6 ClarenceKeliionakoaKanae spelledC-L-A-R-E-N-C7 E, middle initial K, last name K-A-N-A-E. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION 10 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 11 Inspector Kanae, can you tell me where you're 12 employed? 13 THE WITNESS: I'm employed with the 14 Federal Aviation Administration. And that's 15 located at 135 Nakolo Place, Honolulu, Hawaii. 16 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 17 Q And how long have you been employed 18 there? 19 A I've been employed with the Federal 20 Aviation Administration for 20 years. 21 Q Can you briefly describe for me your 22 aviation experience, both within and outside of

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### 1 the FAA? 2 A 

### Certainly. My aviation experience 3 

### startedback in 1968 when I learnedhow to fly as 4 

### a private pilot. And it progressed into the 5. 

### militarywhen I enlisted into the warrant officer 6 

### helicopter flight training program back ln 1977. 7 

### I've spent ten years on active duty 8 

### and 32 years of Hawaii Army National Guard, 9 

### mainly as a helicopter pilot, and retired just 10 

### recently in 2012 

### at the rank of CW4. 11 And for my civilian experlence, I've 12 

### flown civilian helicopters and civilian aircraft 13 

### here ln Hawaii. I also have 121 experience 14 

### flying for an air carrierhere in Hawaii as well. 15 

### Total flight time is over 16,000 

### hours, 11,000 

### of 16 

### helicopters and the remaining fixed wing. 17 Q 

### Thank you. And what is your current 18 position with the FAA? 19 A 

### I'm currentlyassignedto overseeAsia 20 

### Pacific Airlines doing business as Aero 21 Micronesia, Inc. I'm the principal operations 22 inspector for this air carrier.

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1 Q 

### And can you briefly describe your job 2 duties? 3 A 

### As a safety inspector, our duties and 4 responsibilities is quite, quite wide in scope. 5 Some of the duties, and I'll just name a few, is 6 

### to investigate action investigations, do 7 surveillance of air carriers, certification of 8 

### air carriers, and also certification of airmen. 9 

### I also am tasked to do inspections on 10 the air carrier that I have oversight of, and 11 surveillanceas well on the air carrier that I am 12 assigned to oversee. 13 Q 

### So you mention part of your duties 14 include inspection of air carriers, specifically 15 16 17 18 19 

### 20 21 22 Aero Micronesia. Do you recall conducting an inspection of Aero Micronesia on March 25th, 2011?A Yes, I do. Q 

### What can you tell me about that inspection? What type of inspection, what made you conduct the inspection? A

(202) 234-4433 

### On that day, there were three of us.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-13 1 There was a team of three inspectors that had 2 oversight of this particular carrier. I'm the 3 operations inspector. There was Vickie Stahlberg 4 who was the maintenance inspector, and then the 5 avionics inspector Kahale Hoe. 6 All three of us did an unannounced 7 ramp inspection at the Honolulu International 8 Airport as an Asia Pacific aircraft came in from 9 Montreux. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Was that Kahale Hoe, 11 was that you need spelled? 12 COURT REPORTER: Yes. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you know how to 14 spell Kahale Hoe? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's K-A-H-A-L-E, 16 H-0-E. Kahale Hoe. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Great, thank you. Go 18 ahead, Counsel. 19 MR. BOBERTZ: So the three of you went 20 to inspect Aero Micronesia, do a ramp inspection 21 that day. So how does that happen? You go, the 22 plane comes in, you go up to the plane, do you

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1 

### tell them you're coming? 2 

### THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 

### BY MR. BOBERTZ: 4 Q 

### Go ahead. 5 A 

### What basically occurs is that all 6 three of us arrived at the ramp area where the 7 

### aircraft had already been parked, and started 8 

### being offloaded at the ramp area. So all three 9 

### of us have different specialties. So we actually 10 

### went in our own progression to do specific 11 

### inspections. 12 

### I went up to the cockpit to interview 13 

### the flight crew captain, first officer, and 14 

### flight engineer. There, I checked for their 15 

### currency of pilot certificates, medical 16 

### certificates. 17 

### I also looked at the flight logs and 18 

### weight manifest, and basically safety equipment 19 

### to make sure that the safety equipment 20 inspections were current. 21 Q 22 A

(202) 234-4433 

### Okay. And then what happened? As I was in the cockpit, I noticed

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1 

### that the loading procedures had stopped. So I 2 inquired about why was the offloading of the 3 cargo ceased. 4 

### And so I approached the, I guess he 5 would be the cargo manager, the loader that was 6 

### in charge of all of the ground personnel. I 

### 7 asked why are we all stopping to offload the 8 

### aircraft. And his comment 9 Q 

### I'm sorry. And then so what did he 10 say? 11 A 

### His comment was well, we have a cargo 12 that's quite heavy, so we need to change the 13 loader equipment to handle this heavier cargo 14 that's going to be offloaded. 15 Q 

### Okay. So were you back where he was 16 doing the offloadingat that time, or did you see 17 the cargo at that time? 18 A 

### I did. I went back and I saw the 19 

### engine inside of the cabin. All the cargo 20 forward of the engine was offloaded already. So 21 all I could see was the engine on a stand on a 22 pallet ready to be offloaded.

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1 Q 

### Okay. And then what, did you notice 2 anything with the engine that concerned you? 3 A 

### Yes. Took a photo of this particular 4 

### cargo, the engine itself. I 

### noticed that the 5 engine in its entirety, to include the engine 6 stand was strapped to a LD7 pallet, which is what 7 we call, laymen's term, a cookie sheet pallet. 8 

### And it was only strapped and 9 

### configured to be loaded on that one particular 10 

### cookie sheet pallet. And that pallet can only 11 fit on one actually, one actual position in the 12 aircraft. 13 Q 

### And what's the problem with that? 14 A 

### In comparisonto the load manifest, it 15 indicated that all the weights was transfer 16 

### across three zones. But in fact, the way it was 17 rigged was only secured and for shipment was for 18 one zone. 19 Q 

### Your Honor, I have what's been marked 20 

### as Administrator's Exhibits A-1 and A-2. May I 21 approach? 22

(202) 234·4433 

### (Whereupon, the above-referred to

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-17 1 documents were marked as Administrator 1s Exhibits 2 A-1 and A-2 for identification.) 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Make sure Mr. 4 Quinn has a chance. 5 MR. BOBERTZ: And we discussed these 6 ahead of time, Your Honor, and we briefly talked 7 about foundation. But I think that we don 1t 8 believe Mr. Quinn has any objection to these 9 exhibits. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 11 MR. BOBERTZ: I gave you two, correct? 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Two different ones, 13 yes. 14 MR. BOBERTZ: InspectorKanae, I think 15 you mentioned earlier in your testimony about 16 seeing a manifest. Can you please tell me, do 17 you recognize Exhibit A-1? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. Exhibit A-1 is an 19 Asia Pacific Airlines load planner weight 20 manifest. 21 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. And is this one 22 of the documents you got from Aero Micronesia at

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-18 l the time when you were doing the inspection? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is correct. 3 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 4 Administrator's Exhibit A-1 into evidence. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection, Mr. 6 Quinn? 7 MR. QUINN: No. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Exhibit A-1 for 9 identification is received into evidence as A-1. 10 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 11 document was received into evidence as 12 Administrator's Exhibit A-1.) 13 MR. BOBERTZ: And Inspector Kanae, do 14 you recognize Exhibit A-2? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 16 MR. BOBERTZ: And what is that? 17 THE WITNESS: This is the actual 18 aircraft engine that was shipped that morning on 19 March 25th, 2011 on board the actual aircraft. 20 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 21 Administrator's Exhibit A-2 into evidence. 22

(202) 234-4433 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 Quinn, any

(202) 234-44331-19 

### 1 objection? Any objection, Mr. Quinn? 2 

### MR. QUINN: I 'm sorry. I didn't hear. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 4 

### MR. QUINN: I have a little bit of a 5 hearing problem, too. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. He offered 7 

### Exhibit 2 into evidence. Do you have any 8 objection? 9 

### MR. QUINN: Oh, I do not. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Exhibit 2 for 11 identification is received into evidence as 12 Agency Exhibit 2. 13 

### (Whereupon, the above-referred to 14 

### document was received into evidence as 15 Administrator's Exhibit A-2.) 16 

### MR. BOBERTZ: So Inspector Kanae, 17 looking at Administrator's Exhibit A-1, the load 18 planner weight manifest, can you summarize what 19 the significance of that document and what you 20 found? 21 22

(202) 234·4433 

### THE WITNESS: Yes. JUDGE GOODWIN: Just to clarify, are

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-20 1 we on 468 or 469, the case? 2 MR. BOBERTZ: We are on 68. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, thank you. 4 MR. BOBERTZ: So, Inspector Kanae 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Make sure 6 MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sorry? 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Make sure your notes 8 show that. Go ahead. 9 MR. BOBERTZ: So Administrator's 10 Exhibit A-1, can you describe the significanceof 11 that document in summary? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. What this 13 indicates is that one of the crew members 14 computedthis weight and balance weight manifest. 15 And in Zone 8 it indicates that the engine in 16 question is at Zone 8, but distributedforward of 17 Zone 8 into Zone 7, and distributedweight aft of 18 Zone 8 into Zone 9. 19 And in fact, it's in conflict with 20 what I actually saw in the aircraft whereby the 21 engine was on one particularpallet that can only 22 be secured in one zone.

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 2 Q So that's in conflict with this 3 Exhibit A-1 that shows the load was spread across 4 three zones? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q So then what happened? 7 A So after I took a photo, myself and 8 the two other inspectors went to Continental 9 Shipping Warehouse and I approached t'he manager 10 for the Continental ShippingOffice and asked her 11 if I could get documents for this particular 12 flight, documents that include the weight and 13 balance, and weigh bill. Any of the documents 14 regarding this shipment. 15 Q And did she give you those? 16 A Yes, she did. 17 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I have 18 what's been marked for identificationpurposes as 19 Administrator's Exhibits A-3, A-4, A-5, and A-6. 20 May I approach? 21 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 22 documents were marked as Administrator'sExhibits

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-22 1 A-3, A-4, A-5, and A-6 for identification.) 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 3 MR. BOBERTZ: All right, bear with me 4 for one minute. 5 THE WITNESS: Is it okay if I get a 6 drink of water? 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 8 MR. BOBERTZ: Did I give you duplicate 9 copies, Mr. Quinn? 10 MR. QUINN: I think I have copies of 11 these, though. 12 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. Well keep those, 13 you don't mind if I share yours? 14 MR. QUINN: No. 15 MR. BOBERTZ: I don't have a full copy 16 apparently. I'11 hold a copy for Inspector Kanae 17 and the Judge. 18 (Pause.) 19 MR. BOBERTZ: May I see, I'm sorry. 20 All right, my apologies for the delay. We're all 21 straight now. 22 right.

(202) 234-4433 I just couldn't see my numbers

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1 I believeprior to the hearingwe went 2 over these documents, and I don't believe Mr. 3 Quinn has any objectionto admissionof documents 4 3, 4, 5, and 6. Perhaps we could cut short the 5 foundational testimony? 6 MR. QUINN: No. 7 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay, thank you, Mr. 8 Quinn. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: No objection, Mr. 10 Quinn? 11 MR. QUINN: No objection to any of 12 them. 13 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: FAA Exhibits 4, 5, and 15 6 for identification are received into evidence 16 respectfully as Agency 4, 5, and 6. 17 18 well? 19 20 5. 21 22

(202) 234-4433 MR. BOBERTZ: And 3, Your Honor, as

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry, 3, 4, and

MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, and 6. JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Exhibits 3, 4,

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-24 1 5, and 6 Agency are all admitted as 3, 4, 5, and 2 6 respectfully. 3 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 4 documents were received into evidence as 5 Administrator's Exhibits A-3, A-4, A-5 and A-6.) 6 MR. QUINN: I assume that insofar as 7 I don't have any objections to the exhibits, 8 that's not the same as agreeing to the facts at 9 question? 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, you can still 11 make inquiry with respect to exhibits, that's 12 fine. 13 MR. BOBERTZ: So InspectorKanae, just 14 briefly, can you summarize your findings 15 regarding these exhibits? Backing up for just a 16 moment, you were just talking about going to the 17 Continental Cargo folks. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct. 19 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 20 Q And are these the documents that you 21 received from them? 22 A

(202) 234-4433 Yes, but I have one more item if I

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### 1 could. 2 Q 

### Sure, go ahead. 3 A 

### Prior to leaving the aircraft for the 4 cargo warehouse, I talked to the load supervisor 5 and asked if there was any cargo placed in Zone 7 6 

### or in Zone 9. 

### He replied no, there wasn't any. 7 

### And then we proceeded to the Continental Cargo 8 

### warehouse. 9 Q 

### Okay. And then these are the 10 documents you gathered from them? 11 A 

### Yes, that's correct. 12 Q 

### Okay. And can you briefly summarize 13 what the documents meant for you? 14 A 

### Sure. So upon requesting the 15 documents, I reviewedthe weighbill, Continental 16 Airlines weigh bill. 17 Q 

### And which exhibit is that? 18 A 

### That is 19 Q 

### Down at the bottom right hand corner, 20 roughly? I think of Exhibit A-3? 21 A Oh, Exhibit A-3. 22 Q 

### Thank you.

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1 A Exhibit A-3. And upon examining it, 2 it does indicate that an aircraft engine was 3 being shipped from Guam to Honolulu, it's gross 4 weight was 10,400 pounds. 5 Q What about the ExhibitsA-4, 5, and 6? 6 Did those 7 A Sure. 8 Q -- tell you anything different? 9 A I would like to just kind of like go 10 out of sequence, if that's okay. 11 Q That's fine. 12 A Exhibit A-5 indicates that on pallet 13 72217, there was 316 pounds on that particular 14 shipment. If we were to take the 316 pounds and 15 add it to Exhibit A-6 of 1,084 pounds, that would 16 come out to 10,400 pounds listed on Exhibit A-3. 17 Q And what does that mean? 18 A What that means is the Continental 19 Airlines weigh bill matches the actual weighbill 20 of Asia Pacific Airlines Cargo manifest on 21 Exhibit A-4. 22 Q And what does that tell you about the

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### weight of the engine? 2 A 

### That it's over 10,000 pounds. 3 Q 

### So then what happened? You got these 4 

### exhibits from the cargo folks. Did you leave the 5 

### airport? Did you go back and talk to Aero 6 

### Micronesia? What happened next? 7 A 

### Well, I 

### felt that perhaps I 

### should 8 

### take another step in investigating this 9 

### particularincident by having the engine weighed. 10 And so I 

### had a conference with my 11 

### fellow inspectors and they basicallytold me, you 12 

### know, we have enough documentation here which is 13 

### certified by the airlines, and that that should 14 

### suffice versus having an engine placed on the 15 

### scale. And so this is enough. 16 

### And so I 

### agreed, and we decided not to 17 

### weigh the engine. 18 Q 

### Wouldn't weighing the engine be a 19 

### fairly simple thing to do? 20 A 

### Yes. However, in the process it 21 

### could, the engine could itself get damaged, or 22 maybe the scale could get damaged. So instead of

(202) 234·4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE ,N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-28 1 taking that risk, I decided to just go ahead and 2 take these documents as evidence. 3 Q Thank you, Inspector Kanae. Your 4 Honor, I have what's been marked for 5 identification purposes as Administrator's 6 Exhibit A-7. May I approach? 7 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 8 document was marked as Administrator'sExhibit A9 7 for identification.) 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 11 MR. BOBERTZ: And Inspector Kanae, do 12 you recognize this document? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 14 MR. BOBERTZ: And what is it? 15 THE WITNESS: This is a copy of the 16 actual Tan Holdings website. 17 MR. BOBERTZ: And did you view that 18 information on the website? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, I have 20 reviewed the Tan Holdings website. 21 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 22 Administrator's Exhibit A-7 into evidence.

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l JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, do you have 2 any objection? Do you have any objection? 3 MR. QUINN: I do not. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Exhibit 7 for 5 identification is received into evidence as 6 Exhibit 7. 7 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 8 document was received into evidence as 9 Administrator's Exhibit A-7.) 10 MR. BOBERTZ: And Inspector Kanae, 11 what's the concern with having the inaccurate 12 manifest, as you testified earlier? 13 THE WITNESS: There's some safety 14 concerns and safety ramifications, and also non15 compliance to the regulations. I'd like to tap 16 on the safety aspect of it first whereby if there 17 lS an overloaded cargo placed on a particular 18 portion of the airplane that's not configured or 19 certified for, it could cause problems through 20 the airframe or integrityof the aircraft itself, 21 which could be a safety hazard. 22 BY MR. BOBERTZ:

(2021 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (2021 234-4433

### 1-30

1 Q 

### What about the manifest error itself, 2 is that a problem? 3 A 

### Yes, because it's inaccurate. And 4 therefore, anyone looking at the manifest could 5 say okay, it's fine, everything's fine. The load 6 

### has been distributed accordingly to meet all the 7 

### zone limits. However, in this case, it did not. 8 And so 9 Q 

### Would there be times that you or 10 someone else may just rely on the cargo manifest 11 for accuracyand not actually look at the load to 12 see that it didn't match? 13 A 

### Yes, that could happen. 14 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I have 15 what's been marked as Administrator'sExhibitA-8 16 

### for identification purposes. May I approach? 17 

### (Whereupon, the above-referred to 18 documentwas marked as Administrator'sExhibitA19 8 for identification.) 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 21 MR. BOBERTZ: And this is actually 22 just the FAA Compliance and Enforcement Program

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-31 1 2153 (b) AppendixB that I actually asked that the 2 Court take judicial notice of. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Generally, Mr. 4 Quinn, the FAA in all of these cases, 2150(a) 5 talks about the enforcement that has the matrix 6 and everythingelse on it. What I normally do is 7 take judicial notice and that saves me several 8 filing cabinets full of duplicate copies of this. 9 MR. QUINN: Okay. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: So Counsel knows that, 11 but are you offering it at this point? 12 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. For convenience, 13 I took the liberty of making a copy of the 14 Appendix B. And I know I discussed it with 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Morris and I used to 16 have this conversation all the time. He would 17 always bring a copy, move a copy, and I would 18 always take judicial notice. But to be 19 consistent, the Court takes judicial notice of 20 Federal Aviation Order 5150.3 (b) effective date 21 October 1st, '07. 22 It is the type of document of which

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-32 1 the Court can take judicial notice, which is 2 regulations and laws and other things which are 3 generally available in the public domain. So the 4 Court will take judicial notice of Exhibit A-8. 5 MR. BOBERTZ: I have no further 6 questions for Inspector Kanae, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, before you 8 make inquiry, let me just, the Court wants to 9 make sure I understand. Mr. Kanae, if you look 10 at Exhibit 1, and there's Zone 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 11 12. What is PAG? Does that just mean package? 12 THE WITNESS: PAG lS the pallet 13 number. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So if I'm 15 looking at the first line, to the left it says 16 COMAT. And PAG 72083, is that Charlie Oscar? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's Charlie 18 Oscar standing for Continental. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Oh, I see. 20 Okay. So according to the manifest, that 21 particular pallet would be distributed over Zone 22 7, 8, and 9, is that correct?

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44331-33

1 THE WITNESS: According to this 2 manifest, yes, Your Honor. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Yes, I'm just 4 trying to understand that. Now if you jump to 5 Exhibit 3, is there information on there that 6 ties it to the pallet? 7 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, because 8 it was weighed on a scale. So they take the raw 9 weight or the actual weight. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now Exhibit 4, 11 again that's pallet 72217 Continental, is that 12 right? 13 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: And then there's some 15 numbers above that, Lima, is that the weight? 16 THE WITNESS: No, that's pounds, sir. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Pounds, okay. Okay, 18 I'm just trying to get the nomenclature down. 19 You're finished with the witness, Mr. Bobertz? 20 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, I am. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay then, Mr. Quinn, 22 would you like to ask this gentleman some

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-34 1 questions? 2 MR. QUINN: I would. Thank you. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: And Mr. Quinn, you can 4 also ask him questions based on my questions. 5 I'm just trying to wrap my head around the 6 nomenclature here. 7 MR. QUINN: I think some of mine will 8 try to clarify some of this. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Thank you. 10 CROSS EXAMINATION 11 MR. QUINN: Inspector Kanae, I 12 appreciate that you're taking time today on your 13 vacation. I believe that you testified that you 14 have some Part 121 experlence. Could you 15 elaborate on that, exactly who that was and what 16 type of airplanes they had? 17 THE WITNESS: Sure. I was a first 18 officer on a 121 Hawaii inter-islandair carrier. 19 The name of the air carrier is Mid-Pacific 20 Airlines that flew 60 passenger aircraft, turbo 21 propeller, turbo prop. 22

(202) 234·4433 MR. QUINN: Props. And how heavy an

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-35 1 airplane was that max takeoff weight, roughly? 2 THE WITNESS: About 154 to, depending 3 on the actual model. They had three different 4 models. It ranged from 154,000 to 180,000, I 5 think, if I remember correctly. 6 MR. QUINN: 80,000 pounds? I don't 7 think so. For 60 people? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe so. 9 MR. QUINN: I mean, our 727 holds 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn? Do me a 11 favor and move that microphone closer to you. 12 MR. QUINN: Yes, I'm sorry. 13 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. 14 MR. QUINN: Isn't it true that Asia 15 Pacific's certificate was moved to the Honolulu 16 office, I think, in '09? 17 18 19 20 21 objection. 22

(202) 234-4433 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. MR. QUINN: It has to do with the

-- JUDGE GOODWIN: I overruled the

You can -- MR. QUINN: Is that correct?

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-36

1 

### THE WITNESS: No, it's not correct, 2 

### BY MR. QUINN: 3 Q 

### When? 4 A 

### October of 2008. 5 Q 

### Okay, 2008. And you were assignedas 6 

### the POI for Asia Pacific Airlines at that time? 7 A 

### That's correct. 8 Q 

### Okay. Was Asia Pacific Airlines your 9 

### first Principal OperatingInspectorpositionat a 10 large aircraft Part 121 carrier? 11 A 

### No. I was -- 12 Q 

### Could you expand on what you -- 13 A 

### Sure. 14 Q 

### -- that experience? 15 A 

### The process of being assigned to a 16 specific carrier means that the inspector has to 17 be qualified. And in this particular situation, 18 I was qualified as a 121 carrier principal. I 

### 19 also had oversight previously with a 121 carrier 20 which was located in Guam. And also down in 21 Samoa. 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 

### And that carrier was, in Guam?

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-37 1 A That was Freedom Air, and also Samoa 2 Air in Pago Pago, American Samoa. 3 Q Operating a twin engine 4 A Turbo props. 5 Q -- props, fairly small airplanes? 6 A Excuse me. They were transport 7 category aircraft. 8 Q Sure. How would you describe, in 9 general, the difficulty or not of operating out 10 in the Pacific to the small island destinations 11 that Asia Pacific flies to? 12 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 14 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the 15 question again? 16 MR. QUINN: In general, how would you 17 describe the difficultyof operations of our kind 18 out in the Pacific to the little airports that we 19 operate out of? 20 THE WITNESS: I would say because of 21 the international overseas oceanic kind of 22 operation, I would say the risk would be from

(202) 234·4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 'I 20 21 22 1-38 medium to high because of the length of the flights across the oceanic and into international airspace. I would say medium to high as far as risk. MR. QUINN: And difficult because of the different countries and the short runways would have a factor in that? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. QUINN: I assume. Okay. Exhibit 1, what would be your estimate of how long it takes to prepare (telephonic interference) this. JUDGE GOODWIN: Prepare what? MR. QUINN: How long it would take a crew member to prepare this document. MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, asks for speculation. JUDGE GOODWIN: If you can answer. Overruled. THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? JUDGE GOODWIN: You can answer. THE WITNESS: I would only have to estimate it would probably take no more than 15

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234-44331-39 

### 1 minutes, on the average. 2 

### MR. QUINN: Having filled out hundreds 3 of these, it takes 20 to 25 minutes. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, that would 5 

### be testimony. You can testify to that later. 6 

### MR. QUINN: Okay. All 

### right, 7 referring to Exhibit 4, at the top of the page, 8 can you elaborateon the numbers and the pallets? 9 In other words, it appears that one pallet shows 10 an aircraft engine at 10,084 pounds, do you agree 11 with that? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 BY MR. QUINN: 14 Q 

### And then it shows a second pallet and 15 it says second aircraft engine, 316 pounds. 16 A 

### Correct. 17 Q 

### And so the 10,400 for this particular 18 document would indicate that that weight was 19 spread across, was on two different pallets? 20 A 

### Two separate pallets, these are two 21 separate pallets, correct. 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 

### Right, right. And relating back to

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234-44331-40 1 Exhibit 1, we can see that the first pallet 2 PAG72083 was loaded, is shown in position eight, 3 and the other pallet is shown in position 12. Do 4 you agree with that? 5 A I agree. 6 Q Okay. And Exhibit 2, I believe you 7 took this picture, is that correct? 8 A It's either myself or one of my co9 inspectors. I think it was Vickie. Vickie had 10 the digital camera that day, so I believe she 11 took the photo. 12 Q But it's the only picture of the 13 actual engine ln question? 14 A No. I think we took maybe 40 15 pictures, inside and outside the aircraft. 16 Q It's the only picturebeing used as an 17 exhibit here. 18 A True. 19 Q Okay. And I've lost a piece of paper. 20 And Inspector Kanae, your original Letter of 21 Investigation was dated April the 7th, 2011, lS 22 that correct?

(202) 234·4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44331-41

1 A I don't have it in front of me, but I 2 believe that would concur because the Letter of 3 Investigation would have occurred after the 4 inspection. So I would assume that's probably 5 correct. 6 Q Okay. And my records indicate that I 7 replied to that letter with a letter dated April 8 the 20th, approximatelytwo weeks later. I wrote 9 back to you with comments on your Letter of 10 Investigation. 11 A I don't recall seeing that LOI reply. 12 Q Okay. I'mpretty sure that the letter 13 lS within our documents. Do I have to introduce 14 that as an exhibit, his letter and mine? 15 MR. BOBERTZ: That's up to you. 16 (Pause.) 17 MR. QUINN: Here's my letter to 18 Clarence. It's Exhibit H. 19 MR. BOBERTZ: That was Exhibit H I 20 think to our declaration. I do have extra copies 21 of that particular exhibit if you want to use 22 mine and put them in.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE. N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-42

1 MR. QUINN: Can we give this one to 2 Clarence for reference? 3 MR. BOBERTZ: I've got copies, 4 actually, with all the attachments. So if you 5 want to put it in with all the attachments. 6 MR. QUINN: All right. 7 MR. BOBERT

### z: I don't know if you care 8 about that or not, but here you go. So if Mr. 9 Quinn is going to enter this as an exhibit, let's 10 call it perhaps R-1? 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is this the complaint 12 with attachments? 13 MR. BOBERTZ: No, this is a copy of, 14 Mr. Quinn was just referencing 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Reference the Notice 16 of Civil Penalty and he also commented on his 17 reply. You can make it Respondent's Exhibit, or 18 you can make it Court Exhibit. 19 MR. BOBERTZ: Well, I think he was 20 actually asking about, not the Notice of Civil 21 Penalty but the Letter of Investigation, the LOI 22 from Inspector Kanae.

(202) 234·4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE ,NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-43

1 MR. QUINN: Right. Well, you know, he 2 started with an LOI. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 4 MR. QUINN: I responded with some 5 basic information on the weights that were 6 exhibits. 7 MR. BOBERTZ: And I don't think Mr. 8 Quinn has extra copies. But I do. I don't have 9 extra copies of Inspector Kanae's LOI to Mr. 10 Quinn, but I do have copies of Mr. Quinn's April 11 20th, 2011 reply if he would like to offer those 12 into evidence, that's fine. 13 MR. QUINN: I have copies of the 14 attachments if that's necessary. 15 MR. BOBERTZ: So I don't know what you 16 want to do about the LOI, Mr. Quinn, because I 17 don't have the copies of that. 18 MR. QUINN: We don't need that. 19 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. But you want 20 this? And we'll mark it Exhibit R-1? 21 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 22 document was marked as Respondent's Exhibit R-1

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-44 1 for identification.) 2 MR. QUINN: That's fine. 3 MR. BOBERTZ: So there's three copies, 4 one for you, one for Inspector Kanae and one for 5 Judge Goodwin. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. Okay, the 7 Court has a copy of a letter with, top of the 8 letter has Asia Pacific Airlines. It's dated 9 April 20th, 2011. It's been marked as 10 Respondent's 1 for identification. So Mr. Quinn, 11 did you want to ask Mr. Kanae questions on that? 12 MR. QUINN: I do. 13 MR. BOBERTZ: Just one moment for, 14 Your Honor, so the record doesn't get confused. 15 I had originally marked this as a potential 16 Exhibit A, so the Page 1 of 9 on the top, I 17 crossed it out and marked, since it's Mr. Quinn's 18 exhibit, Respondent's Exhibit, I marked it R-1. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 20 MR. BOBERTZ: But just for the record, 21 the subsequent pages, Exhibit A- where I was 22 going to write in the number.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-45

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: The Court will change 2 that to R-1. 3 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. Thank you, Your 4 Honor. 5 MR. QUINN: And Inspector Kanae, if 6 you would refer to -- 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, keep your 8 voice up because 9 MR. QUINN: I'm sorry. Inspector 10 Kanae, if you would please refer to Page 4 of 11 this exhibit. It's actually Page 5 of this 12 exhibit. There's a weight circled and it says 13 dry weight 5,216 pounds. 14 And in the letter, I state that that 15 ln fact is the weight of this type of engine that 16 was shipped. Do you agree with that or not? 17 THE WITNESS: I do not agree with 18 that. 19 BY MR. QUINN: 20 Q 21 A 22 Q

(202)234-4433 Not. No. Could you explain why?

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE ,N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-46

1 A 

### Yes. What you have here is a generic 2 weight of a generic engine without fluids within 3 the system itself, fluids such as oil, fuel, and 4 

### also components, fuel control units, et cetera 5 

### may not be computed per this generic weight as 6 

### listed here. 7 Q 

### All right. Even though I believe they 8 

### state in here that that's the typical shipping 9 

### weight of an engine. But you've mentioned 10 

### components on this engine? 11 A 

### That's correct. 12 Q 

### And you've mentioned oil and fluids. 13 A 

### Yes. 14 Q 

### Isn't it normal procedure that fluids 15 

### have to be more or less evacuated from an engine 16 

### prior to shipping? 17 A 

### Yes, but not all of it can be because 18 

### it gets trapped within the engine itself. 19 Q 

### Okay. And you have any idea how much 20 

### might be trapped? 21 

### 22 A 

### It may vary depending on the compartment it is trapped ln. So it may vary.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-47 1 Q And with respect to the components, 2 any idea of how many components might be attached 3 to an engine? 4 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance, 5 Your Honor. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 7 MR. QUINN: I'm sorry? 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. You can 9 answer. 10 MR. QUINN: Any idea of, you know, can 11 you give us a couple of examples? 12 THE WITNESS: Sure. The fuel control 13 unit would be attached to the engine, the 14 accessorycase where most of these components are 15 mounted could be such as the fuel control unit, 16 the bleed valves 17 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 BY MR. QUINN: Starters? Starters, et cetera, yes. Generators, ducting? Correct. QEC items, maybe?

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-48

1 A Yes. 2 Q A question, you know, the englne is 3 covered in this picture. Any attempt to uncover 4 it to determine what may or may not have been 5 attached to it? 6 A No. To answer your question, no. We 7 didn't uncover it. 8 Q Okay. The following page, Page 65 9 relates to the engine stand itself. 10 A Yes. 11 Q And it's circled. And I believe the 12 number is 4,620 pounds. 13 A Yes, I see that. 14 Q Do you agree with that number? The 15 problem with this exhibit is that it's obscured. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: You know we couldjust 17 18 MR. QUINN: And whether that was 19 delivered or not, I don't know. But there 20 appears to be some sort of a stamp on this 21 exhibit that obscures a crucial piece of 22 information.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-49 1 MR. BOBERTZ: I have clear copies, if 2 you would like them, Mr. Quinn. 3 MR. QUINN: Can we -- 4 MR. BOBERTZ: Certainly. 5 MR. QUINN: If you have a clean copy. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: The Court's the only 7 person who really needs the clear copy. So what 8 you may want to do later is substitute

-- I can 9 barelymake out the 4260, the 4020. It just looks 10 like it's a poor copy. But if you have a better 11 copy, I'll allow you to substitute that later. 12 MR. QUINN: It's actually a very 13 important 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I understand 15 that. But I'm the only one that really needs the 16 clear copy. You can, if you've got a clear copy, 17 then show it to the witness and then give it to 18 the Court. 19 MR. BOBERTZ: Do you want just the 20 engine stand copy? There it is. 21 22

(202) 234-4433 MR. QUINN: I'm sorry? MR. BOBERTZ: Here it is. Do you want

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE

.. NW WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-50 1 to glve, to drop one to Clarence, too? You know, 2 this isn't actually a -- 3 (Off microphone comment.) 4 MR. BOBERTZ: It's not because it was 5 copied more recently. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's sufficient, I 7 think. 8 MR. BOBERTZ: And this, the unclear 9 copy is just a copy of a copy that we got from 10 you in your response. Just recently, I went on 11 the website from the unclear copy and made a 12 clear copy. But you're right, it's not exactly 13 the same. It's a more recent 14 MR. QUINN: Should we enter it as a 15 different exhibit, or can I just 16 MR. BOBERTZ: It's up to you. 17 MR. QUINN: Let me let the Judge 18 decide on this. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: You know what I'm 20 going to recommend is that we keep R-1 as R-1, 21 and what Mr. Quinn has just handedme, we'll just 22 mark that R-2.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-51

1 

### (Whereupon, the above-referred to 2 document was marked as Respondent's Exhibit R-2 3 for identification.) 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: And I will note that 5 

### it's a clearer copy of what is in Pages 6 of 9 6 

### and 7 

### of 9 of R-1. I assume that's what you're 7 

### really

-- 8 

### MR. QUINN: That's fine. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that satisfactory, 10 Mr. Quinn? 11 

### MR. QUINN: Yes. That's fine, thank 12 you. 13 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What the 14 Court's saying is everyone's having trouble 15 

### reading parts of Respondent's 1 

### for 16 identification. 17 

### What Mr. Quinn has just handed the 18 Court is going to be marked as Respondent's 2 for 19 identification, which in fact is a replicationof 20 Page 6 of 9 and 7 of 9 of Respondent's 1, but 21 it's more readable, and it has to do with the 22 fact that we've got copies of copies.

(2D2) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-52

1 So R-2 for identification for the 2 record is actually Pages 6 of 9 and 7 of 9 of R3 1, it's just that it's a clearer copy. 4 MR. QUINN: Okay. Inspector Kanae, on 5 Page 2 of what I just gave you, it's highlighted 6 total weight, the same 4,620 pounds. 7 THE WITNESS: I see that. 8 BY MR. QUINN: 9 Q Would you please read the two numbers, 10 the information to the left under dimensions, 11 what it says there? 12 A Under dimensions it says inches. And 13 under that column, you mean? Under the 14 dimensions column? 15 Q Yes. 16 A It says casters up with the actual 17 dimensions, casters down with dimensions. 18 Q And what are the casters? 19 A These are metal wheels that are 20 attached to the frame of the engine stand. 21 Q And there are four of them attached to 22 the stand, typically?

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-53 

### 1 A 

### Typically. 2 Q 

### One on each corner? But only two 3 visible in the picture? 4 A 

### Yes, that's correct. 5 Q 

### Okay. Would you agree 6 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, again. I'm 7 

### sorry, Your Honor. Objection, relevance. We 8 haven't actually admitted this document, yet 9 we're having testimony about it. I'm not sure, I 10 don't believe this document is relevant to this 11 case. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 13 

### MR. QUINN: My next question is the 14 total weight, as I read this document, of 4,620 15 pounds clearly includes the casters on the stand, 16 do you agree or disagree with that? 17 

### THE WITNESS: Again too, this is a 18 

### generic weight. And we don't know for sure if 19 the casters are the actual casters that were 20 mounted on this particular stand. So what I'm 21 saying is this, again too, is a generic weight 22 that was produced.

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.. NW. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-54

1 

### BY MR. QUINN: 2 Q 

### So to your knowledge, are there 3 different casters that can be put on a stand of 4 

### this kind? 5 A 

### It's possible, it's possible. 6 Q 

### Possible, but you don't know? 7 A 

### Yes. 8 Q 

### And to your knowledge, this engine or 9 

### this stand, separately or together, was never 10 weighed in Guam, nor was it weighed in Honolulu, 11 is that correct? 12 A 

### 13 ln Guam. 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 

### 20 Q 

### 21 correct? 22 A

(202) 234-4433 

### No, it's not correct. It was weighed

It was? Yes. By who? Continental Airlines. Andhas that been introducedanywhere? Yes. Exhibit A-3. Three. ExhibitA-3 lS an airwaybill,

Correct.

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234·44331-55

1 Q Is it, you know, pretty standard 2 practice for those numbers on airway bills to be 3 incorrect? 4 A Not necessarily becauseyou can see a 5 stamp certified. 6 Q All right. 7 A And delivery authorized. 8 Q I'll probably save this question for 9 Ms. Flores, but at the time this englne was 10 shipped, there was no scale in Guam capable of 11 weighing anything over 10,000 pounds. And so 12 this engine was not weighed. 13 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's testimony, Mr. 15 Quinn. 16 MR. QUINN: Fine. I'll make testimony 17 later. Let's see. The next question that I 18 have, Inspector, is that after April the 20th, 19 after my letter to you, I did not hear anything 20 from the FAA until receiving a letter from Mr. 21 Bobertz nearly six months later. 22

(202) 234-4433 Do you recall when or why you

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-56 

### 1 submittedthis to the legal authorityand whether 2 this was reviewed by anyone else at your office? 3 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: That's not really 5 relevant, Mr. Quinn. 6 

### MR. QUINN: Well, it goes to the FAA's 7 own procedures for filing, you know, doing things 8 on a timely basis because of the delay and 9 

### getting a response. We weren't able to verify 10 some of the facts in this case. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I think you can 12 present that as part of your testimony and 13 

### argument at the end in mitigation. I'm not sure 14 at this point how relevant it is. 15 

### MR. QUINN: Okay. Then the question 16 is was anybody in your office involved in 17 reviewing this before it went from you to Mr. 18 Bobertz, I assume. 19 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled, I'll allow 21 that limited inquiry. 22

(202) 234-4433 

### THE WITNESS: Sure.

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1 MR. QUINN: It was. 2 THE WITNESS: The process for 3 enforcement per our FAA order requires that we 4 gather investigative data. We then put together 5 an enforcement package. It is then reviewed not 6 only by myself, but also reviewed by my 7 managementpersonnel before it 1s forwarded to the 8 region for legal counsel to review. 9 In my LOI, if I may mention, I stated 10 that I request ten days for a reply. If there is ll no reply, then the enforcement will be forwarded 12 all the way up to our region legal office, 13 basically. 14 BY MR. QUINN: 15 Q So are you telling me that it was 16 forwarded to legal before you got my letter dated 17 April 20? 18 A I did not receive your letter, Mr. 19 Quinn. 20 Q Really? 21 A I didn 1t see your letter. I don 1t 22 remember revealing your letter.

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1 Q 

### Okay. So just maybe this is 2 repetitive, but you decided not to weigh the 3 engine here in Honolulu after it arrived? 4 A 

### That's correct. 5 Q 

### Okay. I don't have any further 6 

### questions. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect? 8 

### MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm going to ask 10 

### you -- you can step down. I'm going to instruct 11 

### you not to discuss your testimcny with anybody 12 

### prior to the conclusion of the hearing. You can 13 

### step down. You can leave those. It'll give 14 

### something for Mr. Bobertz to do. 15 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, we'll be 16 

### using them again. I'm sorry if you're waiting 17 

### for me, Your Honor. But if you are, may I call 18 

### my next witness? 19 20 21 

### 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. Let's do this, let's take a quick five minute break. I've got 17 

### of. Let's be back here at quarter of and go on the record. And when we return, if you'll

(202) 234·4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-59 1 have your witness standingup by the witness box, 2 we'll proceed. 3 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: We're going to go off 5 the record for a minute. 6 (Whereupon, the above-entitledmatter 7 went off the record at 1:40 p.m. and resumed at 8 1:46 p.m.) 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and raise your 10 right hand. 11 WHEREUPON, 12 CATHERINE R. FLORES 13 was called as a witness by Counsel for the 14 Administrator and, having been first duly sworn, 15 assumed the witness stand, was examined and 16 testified as follows: 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 18 State your full name for the record and spell 19 your first and last name, please. 20 THE WITNESS: Catherine R. Flores. 21 That's C-A-T-H-E-R-I-N-E, middle initial R, F-L22 0-R-E-S.

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1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 2 DIRECT EXAMINATION 3 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 4 Now Ms. Flores, can you tell me where you're 5 employed? 6 

### THE WITNESS: United Airlines. 7 

### BY MR. BOBERTZ: 8 Q 

### And how long have you been employed 9 there? 10 A 

### About 17 years. 11 Q 

### Can you tell me your position? 12 A 

### I'm the warehouse supervisor. 13 Q 

### Thank you. So can you briefly 14 describe your job duties, what does it mean to be 15 a warehouse supervisor there? 16 A 

### Of the 17 years I 've been employed 17 with United, I was the supervisor for 7 years. I 18 

### oversee 17 store keepers. They're responsible 19 for about $22 million worth of aircraft parts. 20 They handle the shipping, receiving, 21 maintaining the inventory of those aircraft 22 parts, and we also handle about $1 million worth

(202) 234·4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-61 1 of catering equipment. 2 Q Thank you. And you mentioned you're 3 employed by United. Was it previously 4 Continental before the buy-out? 5 A Continental Micronesia, yes. 6 Q Okay. And when was that? Do you 7 recall about? 8 A It was up until 2012 we merged with 9 United. 10 Q Okay. So before that, you were with 11 Continental? 12 A Yes. 13 Q What did you call it, Continental 14 A Continental Micronesia. 15 Q Okay, thank you. Your Honor, may I 16 approach? 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 18 MR. BOBERTZ: Did I collect the 19 exhibits from you, Clarence, up there? 20 MR. KANAE: I'm sorry? 21 MR. BOBERTZ: Oh, I did. 22 one moment please, Your Honor.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 I'm sorry,

(202) 234-44331-62

1 

### Ms. Flores, I'm going to hand you 2 what's been marked, and actually accepted into 3 evidence as Exhibits A-2, A-3, A-5, and A-6. 4 I'm going to give you just a minute to 5 

### take a look at those documents, Ms. Flores. So 6 looking at documents A-3, A-5, and A-6, Aviation 7 Safety Inspector Kanae gave some testimony 8 regarding them. 9 

### But you worked at Continental at the 10 time, so I would like to go over in a little bit 11 more detail with those documents with you. Let's 12 start in with A-3. What can you tell me about 13 the information on that document? 14 THE WITNESS: Pretty much what 15 Inspector Kanae mentioned. It's showing that 16 we're shipping out 737 aircraft engine, total of 17 three pieces weighing 10,400 pounds from Guam to 18 

### Honolulu. Well, the final destination's Los 19 Angeles, but it terminates in Honolulu. 20 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 21 Q 22 A

(202) 234-4433 

### Okay. And then Exhibits A-5 and A-6? A-5 and A-6 looks like the shipment

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE

.. N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-63

1 was broken down into two pallets. Two of the 2 three pieces is on A-5. If you look at the first 3 item there, that's two pieces at 316 pounds. And 4 then on A-6, it's the remaining piece at 10,084 5 pounds. 6 Q And when you say the remaining piece, 7 are you referring to the engine? 8 A The engine. 9 Q Okay. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: What do you look

-- 11 let's go back to A-5. What's the identifier 12 you're looking at, is that the pallet 722217? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. But if you look at 14 complete airway bill number, you see the 0695 15 0075? 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 17 THE WITNESS: That's two pieces at 18 316. That would match what's on Exhibit A-3. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: So two pieces at 316 20 pounds? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. Two out of the 22 three pieces were placed on this pallet position.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-64

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: And then onepiece at 2 161 pounds? 3 THE WITNESS: The 161 pounds is for a 4 different shipment. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is for which shipment? 6 THE WITNESS: It's a different, it has 7 nothing to do with this. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 9 THE WITNESS: It's a different airway 10 bill. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 12 MR. BOBERTZ: But was it happened to 13 be placed on the same pallet? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now, I'm doing 16 this so that I last thing either one of you 17 wants to do is confuse the Court. You'll never 18 know what you're going to end up with. 19 All right, A-3 in the top extreme 20 right hand corner, Ms. Flores, shows an airway 21 bill of 0695 0075. 22

(202) 234-4433 THE WITNESS: Yes.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-65

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now if we go 2 back to ExhibitA-5, that's the first handwritten 3 1ine. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: So what you're saying 6 is that airway bill has two pieces, 316 pounds 7 each or a total? 8 THE WITNESS: A total of 316 pounds. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. And the special 10 code of the

-- that means it's going to LAX? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now I think I 13 understand so far. Go ahead, Mr. Bobertz. 14 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay, so Ms. Flores, can 15 you do the same, run through the same explanation 16 you just did for Exhibit A-5 with Exhibit A-6 and 17 show where you're getting, how that Exhibit A-6 18 corresponds back to Exhibit A-3? 19 THE WITNESS: So it's there, the 20 airway bill number 0695 0075. It's one of three 21 pieces at 10,084 pounds. So that is the 22 remaining balance from A-5.

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1 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 2 Q Okay. So A-5 I showed from that airway 3 bill number 316 pounds and A-6 showed 10,084 4 pounds for the other piece? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Okay. And if you add those up? 7 A 10,400 pounds. 8 Q Okay. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: 10,542 pounds? 10 THE WITNESS: 10,400. Just the 316 11 and the 10,084. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh okay. 13 THE WITNESS: That second line item on 14 Exhibit A-5 doesn't pertain to this shipment. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, okay. 16 MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sorry, I know it's 17 confusing. Maybe between the three exhibits, Ms. 18 Flores, you could run through it one more time 19 between the three pieces shown on the airwaybill 20 of 10,400 and how that's broken down into the 21 components on the unit load device sheets, and 22 then what the total engine shipment weight is?

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1 THE WITNESS: Okay. So on Exhibit A-3 2 there's a total of three pieces at 10,400 pounds. 3 Two of the three pieces is on Exhibit A-5 at 316 4 pounds. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Total? 6 THE WITNESS: Total. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: And then the remaining 9 piece is on Exhibit A-6 at 10,084 pounds. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Now how do I know by 11 looking at these that these three pieces are on 12 the same pallet? 13 THE WITNESS: It's not on the same 14 pallet. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 16 THE WITNESS: It's broken down on the 17 container number. If you look at the one that's 18 highlighted, PAG72217 and then PAG72083. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Exhibit A-5 has 20 the 217 and A-6 has the 083. Those are two

:1_' - - l -, 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

## ======o==========""- -==-=cc-·""··c=··-"0"'····?§·**~~~==?§?§~~""fNEEJl.AI;E"fRc,~·GriK'(!JS:ISS:SS"". ~~~"§""'~~~=~~~~~=**  COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS (202) 234-4433 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-68

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: So what you're saying 2 is that on pallet 72083 shown on Exhibit 6, the 3 total weight was 10,084? 4 THE WITNESS: The total weight is 5 10,542 because they added, the 10,084 is just the 6 weight of the engine and the engine stand. The 7 458 pounds, that's the total weight for the 8 pallet and straps that they used to secure the 9 engine stand. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, so the 10,084 is 11 just the engine? 12 THE WITNESS: The 10,084 is just the 13 engine. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: And you've got 415 15 pounds of pallets and straps and

-- 16 THE WITNESS: 458 pounds. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, okay. I think 18 I understand it now. 19 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. So just one more 20 time

-- 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just so you know, this 22 has absolutely nothing to do with anything, but

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-69 

### 1 my wife and I just flew space available on a C-17 2 from Travis to Yokota. And I'm still trying to 3 figure out how they knew that the plane wouldn't 4 just go nose up at the end of the runway. 5 

### MR. BOBERTZ: So Ms. Flores, onemore 6 time, the final weight of the engine as shipped 7 was what? 8 

### THE WITNESS: Showing 10,542. 9 

### BY MR. BOBERTZ: 10 Q 

### Okay. And were these, and how do you 11 know these are the correct weights? 12 A 

### Well, cargo, we don't have in our 13 facility, stores warehouse, we don't have a scale 14 to weigh the engine. So we bring the engine to 15 cargo and they're supposed to weigh it for us. 16 And I did verify with them, and everything that 17 comes in, especially something bulky, they re18 weigh. 19 Q 

### And when you say cargo, who do you -- 20 specifically who are you referring to? 21 A 

### 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 

### Our cargo office. Your as in Continental or now United?

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-70

1 A 

### At that time it was Continental. But 2 since we merged, they've been contracted out to 3 an outside vendor. 4 Q 

### Okay. So I notice on Exhibit A-3, 5 

### most of the information is typed in. But the 6 10,400 pounds looks like it's handwritten in. Do 7 you know why that would be? 8 A 

### That was because we didn't have the 9 scale to weigh the engine, so we weren't able to 10 put a weight there. 11 Q 

### Okay. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Now at the time that 13 this occurred, where were you? Were you at Guam 14 or Honolulu or 15 

### THE WITNESS: I'm stationed in Guam. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: You're stationed in 17 Guam? 18 

### THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So when you say 20 we didn't have a scale, you're talking about 21 being in Guam? 22

(202) 234-4433 

### THE WITNESS: Our stores facility

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-71 

### 1 where I work, the department I work in. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: In Guam? 3 

### THE WITNESS: In Guam doesn't have a 4 

### scale. Our cargo facility has a scale. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 6 

### MR. BOBERTZ: And where is your cargo 7 facility? 8 

### THE WITNESS: It's locatedabout maybe 9 a ten minute drive from where we're located. 10 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 11 Q 

### Okay. 12 A 

### So it's not right near our facility. 13 Q 

### Okay. Do you have a scale now at your 14 warehouse? 15 A 

### Yes, thanks to this engine shipment we 16 had a scale installed at our facility. 17 Q 

### And can you explainthat, elaborateon 18 it? You said thanks to this engine shipment. 19 A 

### Well, our normal practice before was 20 we would fill out the documents, drop it off to 21 

### our cargo office and they would handle it. I 

### 22 guess because of this incident, cargo refused to

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### 1 accept any shipment, engine shipment from us 2 unless we broke down the weight. 3 

### So they didn't want to weigh the 4 

### engine for us. So if we wanted the weight, we 5 

### would have to go down to cargo and weigh it 6 

### ourselves before we are able to submit it for 7 

### shipping. So we had to break down the weights 8 

### because of this incident. 9 Q 

### So now the Guam warehouse folks got 10 

### their own scale to be able to do this? 11 A 

### Yes. 12 Q 

### Thank you. 13 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: And when you say break 14 down the weight, that means you have an engine 15 and then you have straps? 16 

### THE WITNESS: Well whateverwe give to 17 cargo, so we would give them the engine on the 18 stand. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 20 

### THE WITNESS: We would weigh that 21 because normally, on Exhibit A-3 if you notice 22 it's the total weight of the three piece

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-73 1 shipment. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 3 THE WITNESS: That's how they would 4 normally accept a shipment from us. But now they 5 want us to break down the three pieces, what each 6 piece actually weighs so it shows that it's less 7 than 10,000 pounds. 8 MR. BOBERTZ: And can you take a look 9 at Exhibit A-2? And so how did you have occasion 10 to, besides today, review these documents 11 recently? 12 THE WITNESS: You sent them to me. 13 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 14 Q And what did I ask you to look at? 15 A You wanted me to verify theweight of 16 the engine to make sure that it didn't exceed 17 10,000 pounds. 18 Q And what was your first thought? 19 A That there was no way that an engine 20 that we shipped out of Guam weighed over 10,000 21 pounds. 22 Q

(202)**234~4433** And what changed your mind?

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1 A Looking at this picture, the casters 2 were still installed. 3 Q And when you say this picture, what 4 picture is that? 5 A Exhibit A-2. 6 Q How much do the casters weigh? 7 A Roughly about 680 pounds for all four. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that 640 each or 9 total? 10 THE WITNESS: 680 pounds total for all 11 four. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 13 THE WITNESS: About 170 pounds. 14 MR. BOBERTZ: Per caster? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 MR. BOBERTZ: So you still ship 17 engines, right? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 MR. BOBERTZ: So if this isn't a 20 typical shipment and it weighs over 10,000 21 pounds, how do you ship engines? 22

(202) 234-4433 THE WITNESS: We remove the casters.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-75 1 And I know that for a fact because right after 2 this shipment, we had another engine that needed 3 to go out. 4 And I made sure that I was there to 5 see them weigh the engine. And the total weight, 6 minus everythingthat's showing on Exhibit A-2

-- 7 minus well there's minus four casters, I can 8 only see two, weighed a total of 9,812 pounds. 9 MR. BOBERTZ: Since we've talked about 10 it, let's go ahead and put that one in. I'm 11 sorry, we were at A-8 so the next one would be A12 9, is that correct? I could verify that too as 13 soon as I find my A-7, A-8, yes. So, Your Honor, 14 may I approach? 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 16 MR. BOBERTZ: I have what's been 17 marked for identification purposes as 18 Administrator's Exhibit A-9. 19 (Whereupon, the above-referenced 20 document was marked as Administrator'sExhibit A21 9 for identification.) 22

(202) 234-4433 MR. BOBERTZ: Ms. Flores, do you

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234·44331-76 1 recognize that document that I've just handedyou 2 marked for identificationas Administrator'sA-9? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 5 Q And what is it? 6 A It was the picture of an engine that 7 we weighed. And it has the breakdown of

-- well 8 it includes the pallet, the straps, and the three 9 spreader boards for a total weight of 9,812 10 pounds. 11 Q And I think you saidyou weighed that 12 shortly after the shipment in this case? 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 time frame 17 Q 18 with dates 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q

(202) 234·4433 Yes. Do you recall about when that was? I believe it was about April or May



### -- May. Okay. Of, I'm sorry I'm really bad

2013. Or Or 2011, I'm sorry. 2011. Yes right, okay. And tell me again

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44331-77

1 why this was done. 2 A Well our -- Rose Onedera, she's our 3 cargo sales manager, she's the person that we 4 deal with whenever we have an engine movement. 5 And we had an engine that needed to go out and 6 she refused to accept the shipment until we got 7 our weight straightened out. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Would you spell the 9 last name of the lady you referred to? 10 THE WITNESS: Onedera, 0-N-E-D-E-R-A. 11 MR. BOBERTZ: And Ms. Flores, I notice 12 that-- so I'm sorry, you started to describe and 13 I may have interruptedyou the components on this 14 and what you weighed. Can you go through that 15 with us, please? 16 THE WITNESS: It's the engine with the 17 engine stand, three spreader boards, a pallet, 18 and ten straps, or a cookie sheet. 19 MR. BOBERTZ: And is that how you 20 typically ship an engine? 21 22

(202) 234-4433 THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. BOBERTZ:

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1 Q This engine? So why is this one 9,812 2 pounds where the engine that shipped in the case 3 we've been discussing is 10,542 pounds? 4 A I can only assume because we removed 5 the casters because that's the big difference 6 between the two pictures is that the casters are 7 on Exhibit A-2 and it's removed on Exhibit A-9. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Again, how much does 9 a caster weigh? 10 THE WITNESS: About, roughly 680 11 pounds. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's all four? 13 THE WITNESS: All four. So 170, I'm 14 sorry. 15 MR. BOBERTZ: And Ms. Flores, how did 16 you feel about coming to testify today? 17 THE WITNESS: I was kind of reluctant. 18 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 19 Q And why is that? 20 A Well, we have a really good 21 relationship with APA, Asia Pacific Airlines and 22 I just didn't want to sever that relationship.

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1 Q 

### And did you feel that by testifying 2 today against them in this case might impact that 3 relationship? 4 A 

### Well, yes I felt like that. I mean, 5 I don't know if it will happen, but that's just 6 the way I felt. 7 Q 

### So you were reluctant to testify? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Flores. No 10 further questions from me, but I'm sure -- 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, do you have 12 any questions? 13 

### MR. QUINN: Yes sir, Judge. May I ask 14 because some of my questions are going to be 15 based on my testimony and I'm not sure if I'm 16 going to be able to testify and then ask 17 questions of a witness afterwards? I'm kind of 18 stuck. 19 

### 20 case. 21 22

(202) 234-4433 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: This is the FAA's

MR. QUINN: Okay. JUDGE GOODWIN: So it's

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C 20005·3701 

### they're

(202) 234-44331-80

1 

### presentingevidence. You can ask questionsbased 2 on the testimony that's been presented. You can 3 always ask a questionbased on what you think you 4 

### may say, but the old admonition that we learned 5 

### in law school lS 

### you never ask a question you 6 

### don't know the answer to. 7 

### MR, QUINN: All right. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: At least that's what 9 

### they taught us in law school. 10 

### MR. QUINN: Okay, thank you. And 11 

### thank you for coming. 12 

### CROSS EXAMINATION 13 

### MR. QUINN: I understand, I think I 14 

### heard you say you've been with Continental and 15 

### United for 20 

### years? 16 

### THE WITNESS: About 17. 17 

### BY MR. QUINN: 18 Q 

### Seventeen? 19 A 

### Seventeen years, yes. 20 Q 

### And all of that's been in Guam? 21 A 

### Yes. 22 Q 

### And so you've actually preceded when

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### 1 Asia Pacific started business in Guam? 2 A 

### Mm-hmm. 3 Q 

### Do you have an A and P license? 4 A 

### No, sir. 5 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 7 

### MR. QUINN: Have you ever worked 8 specifically in an engine shop at the airline? 9 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 11 

### THE WITNESS: No, sir. 12 MR. QUINN: But you do, and you are 13 aware that engines come in lots of different 14 

### forms? And when I say that, you have a bare 15 engine, you have an engine with a fuel control, 16 

### an engine with a generator. Inspector Kanae 17 testifiedto some of the equipment that can be on 18 an engine or not on an engine. 19 

### THE WITNESS: I do know that now. Just 20 based on today, yes. 21 BY MR. QUINN: 22 Q 

### Okay. But you don't have any specific

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### 1 notion of how much those things individually 2 weigh or whether or not they were on this 3 particular engine or not? 4 A 

### No. 5 Q 

### Okay. To your knowledge, at thetime 6 that this incident occurred, you had a scale, or 7 Continental did have a scale in Guam? 8 A 

### There's a scale in our cargo facility, 9 yes. 10 Q 

### Right. Are you aware of the maximum 11 weight of that scale? 12 A 

### No, I'm not. I'm sorry. 13 Q 

### But they got a new scale afterwards, 14 

### a different scale. I think you -- 15 A 

### Our warehouse. 16 Q 

### Your warehouse does? 17 A 

### I'm not too sure what cargo has, but 18 our stores warehouse, we have a scale. 19 Q 

### Okay. Are you able to tell us with 20 certaintywhether or not this engine as loaded on 21 the pallet was or was not weighed prior to your 22 tendering it to Asia Pacific?

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-83 1 A I was told by our cargo facility that 2 they weigh everything, and every bulky iterns. 3 But this was weighed at cargo. I'm not too sure 4 who weighed it so I can't answer. 5 Q To your knowledge, have you ever 6 weighed one of these engine stands separately 7 just to see what it weighs? 8 A No. We only have, we're limited 9 with we only have one engine that we 10 warehouse. So for us to weigh the engine stand 11 separately, we would have to remove the engine 12 from the stand to do that. 13 Q Correct me if I'm wrong, but I mean, 14 it would be a fairly simple thing to take an 15 engine stand and weigh it. But it would be 16 extremelydifficult to weigh an engineby itself. 17 A Well, the engine 18 Q to be able to lay the englne 19 A We would have to remove the engine 20 from the engine stand because we always have it 21 on the stand. 22 Q And then how would you weigh it?

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1 A For if we were to weigh it separately? 2 Q Yes. 3 A You would have to do that. You would 4 have to remove the engine from the stand. 5 Q And you would lay the engine down on 6 the ground? 7 A We've never done that. 8 Q Never. That's because that wouldn't 9 be legal? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. 12 A We've never done that. So that's why 13 I

-- 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me ask this 15 because maybe this is where you're going, Mr. 16 Quinn. You're in a cargo warehouse? 17 THE WITNESS: No. I'm in a stores 18 warehouse. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, you're in a 20 storage warehouse which stores aircraft parts? 21 22

(202) 234-4433 THE WITNESS: Yes. JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you have, at the

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE ,N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-85 1 time of this incident, engine stands in your 2 facility? 3 THE WITNESS: No. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Have you had since 5 then? 6 THE WITNESS: Every engine stand we 7 have we only have one engine, one engine 8 stand. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: In your perspective, 10 all of your stands come with engines attached? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: So you wouldn't, I 13 mean, you would have to make a special effort to 14 go someplace and get a stand and weigh it? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: And it may not be the 17 stand that was attached to a particular engine? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: If I didn't get to the 20 point you were trying to make, Mr. Quinn, you're 21 welcome to 22

(202) 234-4433 MR. QUINN: Well, the basic point is

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-86 

### 1 that they have no idea what the engine actually 2 

### weighed or what was on it. They didn't keep a 3 record of that. 4 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: But I think her 6 testimony is that if this is the point you were 7 trying to make, they have never since this 8 incident or after had a stand that they could 9 

### weigh just to weigh a stand. They all happen to 10 come with engines attached. 11 

### MR. QUINN: Until they take the engine 12 off, and then they have a stand. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, which they can't 14 do because, as you said, it's illegal, so 15 

### MR. QUINN: Well no, no, no. They 16 take the engine off the stand and hang it on the 17 airplane. That's a process. They lift it off 18 

### 19 heard. 20 

### 21 ground. 22

(202) 234-4433 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: That's not what I've

MR. QUINN:

-- to set it down on the

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well I understand, but

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-87 

### 1 I think her testimony is all of her engines come 2 with stands attached because they're just a 3 

### storage facility. So whatever happens after the 4 engine leaves her storage facility

-- 5 

### THE WITNESS: We're only allocatedone 6 

### engine for our station. So we only have one 7 

### englne that we keep in stock. If maintenance 8 needs to do an engine change, we deliver the 9 engine to maintenancewith the stand, they remove 10 the old engine, the unserviceable engine, and 11 they place it right back on the stand for us. 12 MR. QUINN: In the last 15 years, do 13 you have any rough estimate of how many engines 14 of this type that Asia Pacific has carried on 15 behalf of Continental/United? 16 

### THE WITNESS: Prettymuch every engine 17 that we had Asia Pacific has handled. As far as 18 the numbers, I don't have. 19 20 Q 

### 21 too many? 22 A

(202) 234·4433 

### BY MR. QUINN: If I said two a year, would that be

It all depends. Like, this year we

NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234·44331-88 

### 1 had two engines that we sent out. We had one 2 engine that we moved out. In 2011 we had two 3 

### engines. This year we moved about one. 4 Q 

### Numerous engines? 5 A 

### Yes. 6 

### Q Over the years? 7 A 

### Yes. 8 

### Q You've carried? 9 A 

### Yes. 10 Q I've carried some 

### -- 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Make sure you stay 12 close to the mic. The court reporter's having 13 trouble. 14 

### MR. QUINN: I'm sorry. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I can assure you, Mr. 16 Quinn, I've tried a number of cases where I was 17 admonished by the court reporter to move back to 18 the mic. 19 

### MR. QUINN: That's okay. So just to 20 repeat, you know, you can say with some certainty 21 that we've carried a multitude of engines, both 22 before this one and after?

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### 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 MR. QUINN: Okay. Judge, I'm sorry 3 but I think the rest of my questions for 4 Catherine, Ms. Flores would have to come after I 5 talk about the process of how we, you know, how 6 Continentaltenders an engine to Asia Pacific and 7 how we respond to that and all of the people that 8 are involved in filling out the paperwork and 9 dealing with it in that period of time. 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: You can ask her 11 questions now. You don't

-- 12 

### MR. QUINN: Okay. Who would be the 13 first person at Asia Pacific that would be 14 contacted when Continental would have an engine, 15 

### and who would make that contact? Would it be 16 Rose? 17 

### THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 

### BY MR. QUINN: 19 Q 

### I don't know how to pronounce Rose's 20 last name. 21 A 

### Onedera. We contact Rose and Rose 22 handles that portion for us.

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1 Q 

### Okay. And typically she wouldsay to 2 probably Mr. Walker, Asia Pacific's general 3 manager, that you've got an engine that you would 4 like to have on our flight leaving for Honolulu? 5 A 

### Yes. 6 Q 

### And how would that engine and 7 paperwork arrive? 8 A 

### It would come from our facility. 9 Q 

### On the north side of the field? 10 A 

### Yes. 11 Q 

### Or on the east side of the field? 12 A 

### On the east side. 13 Q 

### What? 14 A 

### On the east side. 15 Q 

### Right. So it comes across the 16 airport. Does the paperwork, the airwaybill and 17 all these manifests and all that stuff come with 18 the engine? 19 A 

### Not the manifest. From our warehouse 20 facility, we furnish the shipping documents and 21 commercial invoice and any other paperwork 22 attached to the shipment. We give that to cargo,

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### 1-91 1 and then cargo handles it from there. 2 Q 

### Have there been times over the years 3 

### when, and I don't know if this one applies, but 4 

### when you're in a hurry to get an engine out? 5 A 

### To get it out, to be honest with you, 6 

### ln 2011 during that time we had a group of 7 

### coordinators that handle engine movement. But we 8 

### do always set priority for engines to go out 9 

### because the faster it gets to the repair vendor, 10 the faster it gets back in service for us to 11 utilize. 12 Q 

### Okay. Let me refer

-- 13 

### A But these are unserviceable engines. 14 

### I'm sorry, these are unserviceable engines going 15 

### out of Guam. 16 Q 

### Okay. Let me refer to Exhibit 3, 

### the 17 

### airway bill. Is it your group that fills this 18 

### out? 19 A 

### Yes. 20 Q 

### Both the typing and the written part? 21 A 

### The typing part I know for sure. As 22 far as the written, it's been so long ago. I

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### 1 don't know how that was handled. 2 Q 

### Okay. Would it be correct to say that 3 somebody, again I'm not sure if it's in your 4 

### group over there or not. I suspect it's in your 5 

### group. The maintenance department calls your 6 

### group and says, you know, we've got an engine 7 

### that we need shipped back to Honolulu. Can you 8 

### prepare the documents for it? 9 A 

### Yes. 10 Q 

### And you have a folder with information 11 in it about engine weights and the skid weights 12 and the net weights and so forth and so on, so 13 they compile one of these? 14 A 

### There's a template that they have. 15 Q 

### Now, would you say that Asia Pacific 16 Airlines is aware of the 10,000 pound limit on 17 our airplane? Were you aware of it? 18 A 

### No, I wasn't aware of it. 19 Q 

### Would you say that any of your staff 20 that might have been working on this would have 21 been aware of it? 22 A

(202) 234-4433 

### Our staff is not familiar with Asia

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### 1 Pacific's restrictions on the aircraft. We 2 provide just the shippingdocuments and the items 3 to be shipped, and we tender it to cargo. But we 4 weren't aware until after this shipment of the 5 10,000 pound limitation. 6 Q I 

### don't know if, again if it applies 7 to this specific one, but to your knowledge, has 8 

### Asia Pacific ever come back to you and said hey 9 

### wait a minute, that's too heavy, we need to get 10 some weight off the engine? 11 A 

### The only time I 

### recall is after this 12 particularshipmentbecause that's the reasonwhy 13 I 

### weighed this engine and afterwards. 14 Q 

### Then yes for this shipment, somebody 15 contactedContinental and said, you know, this is 16 too heavy for us, we need to get some weight off 17 it? 18 A I 

### would assume because we got the 19 

### information from Rose. So yes. 20 Q 

### Right, okay. And would it be logical 21 to assume that the 316 pounds that is shown on 22 Exhibit 4 as being on pallet PAG 72217CO.

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### 1 A 

### I don't have Exhibit 4. 2 Q 

### Would it be safe to assume that that 3 was something that was removed from the engine 4 

### and put onto a different pallet? 5 

### A I'm sorry, I don't have that withme. 6 

### Q You don't have Exhibit 4? 7 

### A No. 8 

### Q Oh. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: It's an Asia Pacific 10 Airlines Cargo, at the top it shows cargo 11 manifest. 12 THE WITNESS: I only have A-3, 5, 6. 13 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 14 

### THE WITNESS: Okay, I'm sorry. Could 15 you repeat? Could you repeat your -- 16 

### MR. QUINN: What? 17 

### THE WITNESS: Could you repeat your 18 question? 19 BY MR. QUINN: 20 Q 

### Yes. The manifest shows two pallets. 21 They're both labeled aircraft engines, pallet 1, 22 pallet 2. That's parts, I guess. And on the one

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### 1 pallet it shows 10,084 pounds, and on the other 2 pallet it shows 316 pounds. 3 A 

### Yes. 4 Q 

### Per engine? 5 A 

### Mm-hmm. 6 Q 

### Okay, which came at 316 pounds is 7 subtracted from the overall 10,400 pounds? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### Does that sound about right to you? 10 A 

### Based on the documents, yes. 11 Q 

### Okay. Would you characterize the 12 ability of Asia Pacific to carry your engines to 13 be a rather significant thing for your airline? 14 A 

### Yes. 15 Q 

### to carry them not only back to 16 Honolulu but to Okinawa and other places where 17 they've had to be changed? 18 A 

### Yes. 19 

### MR. QUINN: Judge, will I have a 20 chance to ask her some questions after I give my 21 testimony? 22

(202) 234-4433 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, she's here now.

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### 1 I don't know what your schedule is. 2 

### MR. QUINN: Okay. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: You're free to ask 4 questions even -- I think 5 

### MR. QUINN: I've been told by people 6 at your airline that the scale in the cargo 7 warehouse, ·at the time this engine was shipped, 8 could not have weighed this engine because at 9 that weight of over 10,000 pounds, it was not 10 certified to that weight. 11 THE WITNESS: I honestly can't answer 12 that because that is not the area I work in. 13 

### BY MR. QUINN: 14 Q 

### Right. 15 A 

### So I can't say if it's true or not. 16 Q 

### And can you be a little bit more 17 specific about why you think that the engine and 18 the stand actuallywas weighed, either separately 19 or together, or do you think it was not weighed? 20 A 

### Well, the engine and the stand were 21 weighed together because that's how we provided 22 it to cargo.

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1 Q Well, I'm sorry, but you're not in the 2 area where the scale is, right? You're on the 3 east side of the field

-- 4 A Yes. 5 Q -- and the scale's in the west side of 6 the field ln the cargo facility? 7 A The engine and the stand are delivered 8 to cargo in one piece. 9 Q Correct. And they weighed it? You 10 believe 11 A I'm saying I'm not too sure if they've 12 actually weighed it. That's their process to 13 weigh it. I can't say they did or didn't. But 14 it is their process to weigh, re-weigh any bulky 15 items, and if there wasn't a weight. 16 Q Okay. Well, we'll come back to that 17 later on, I guess. Let me think here. It is 18 possible, in your view, that an airway bill could 19 representmultiplepieces that would be loaded on 20 different pallets? 21 A 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 Yes. Okay, so the fact that the Exhibit 3

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-98 1 says 10,400 pounds doesn't mean that that 10,400 2 pounds was loaded on to one pallet? 3 A No. In Exhibit A-5 and A-6, it shows 4 that it was separated. 5 Q Right, okay. I don't think I have any 6 other questions. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, redirect? 8 MR. BOBERTZ: Just briefly. 9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 10 MR. BOBERTZ: Ms. Flores, do you 11 recall who you talked to, I think you said in 12 Continental Cargo, about this engine and it being 13 weighed? 14 THE WITNESS: It was Val. 15 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 16 Q And what did Val tell you? And I'm 17 sorry, do you recall a last name? Or is that Val 18 lS first? 19 A I don't know his last name, I'm sorry. 20 Q Okay, that's all right. And what did 21 Val tell you? 22 A

(202) 234-4433 He did say that anything that doesn't

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### 1 have a weight will be weighed and if it's bulky 2 iterns, any bulky iterns that come in they re-weigh 3 just to verify against the documents, whether 4 there's a weight or not. 5 Q 

### And did you talk to him specifically 6 about this case and back in 2011? 7 A 

### They don't, he wasn't able to answer 8 

### who actually weighed the shipment. 9 Q 

### But was it their standardpractice to 10 weigh engines at that point in time, as well, to 11 weigh as you say bulky items? 12 A 

### Yes. I did ask him and he said yes, 13 they would weigh. 14 Q 

### Thank you, Ms. Flores. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, do you have 16 any questions based just on the question that he 17 just asked? 18 

### MR. QUINN: I 

### do. 19 

### RECROSS EXAMINATION 20 MR. QUINN: What you're talking about 21 is after the fact? 22

(202) 234-4433 

### THE WITNESS: Yes.

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1 

### MR. QUINN: Right, when they did all 2 this, not before. 3 

### THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 

### MR. QUINN: Okay. That's all. 5 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Point of clarification. 6 I'm not sure that, my understanding of Mr. 7 

### Quinn's question was that, assuming that you did 8 this, that Continental's practice was to weigh 9 the bulky items after this whole event, but I 10 think you testified earlier that it's been a 11 longstanding practice of Continental and it 12 wasn't in the practice to weigh bulky items was 13 in place during 2011? 14 

### THE WITNESS: Yes, yes it was ln 15 place. 16 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you. 17 

### THE WITNESS: I 'm sorry, I thought you 18 meant me speaking to Val was after the fact of 19 weighing. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any further need of 21 this witness? 22 next case?

(202) 234·4433 

### Is she going to testify in the

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1 MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. 2 MR. QUINN: No, Your Honor. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. The Court has 4 no further need for you. I'm going to instruct 5 you not to discuss your testimony with anybody 6 prior to the conclusion of the case. I'll leave 7 it to Mr. Quinn and Mr. Bobertz as to whether she 8 needs to remain. If you want to discharge her, 9 that's fine with the Court. Anything further? 10 MR. BOBERTZ: Nothing further, Your 11 Honor. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: You can step down. 13 Thank you, Ms. Flores. How many hours is it from 14 here to Guam? Ms. Flores, how many hour flight 15 is it from here to Guam? 16 MS. FLORES: It's about a seven hour 17 flight. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Sir, you want 19 to call your next witness? 20 MR. BOBERTZ: That's it. The 21 Administrator rests and has no more witnesses. 22

(202) 234-4433 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. Quinn, it's

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1 

### now your opportunity. You can rest, you can 2 present more evidence, you can present evidence, 3 

### you can take the stand and testify. You want to 4 take a quick break? 5 

### MR. QUINN: I would like to maybe get 6 some water. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, let's do this, B 

### let's take another five minute break. Cameron, 9 do you need anything from Ms. Flores before she 10 leaves ln terms of spelling? Okay. 11 I'm trying to keep Cameron from being 12 up at midnight banging his head against the wall 13 because he didn't spell something. They can be 14 

### our best friends and our worst enemies. They 15 generally, get back at the judges by misspelling 16 the judge's name. 17 All right, Mr. Quinn, we'll come back 18 at about 25 of. We'll go off the record. 19 (Whereupon, the above-entitledmatter 20 went off the record at 2:31p.m. and resumed at 21 2:39p.m.) 22

(202) 234-4433 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, did you

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-103 1 want to testify? 2 MR. QUINN: I do. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: So if you'll approach. 4 Do you have a lot of exhibits there? If,you have 5 some things you want to go through, I'll allow 6 you to stay there but I'll still swear you. It's 7 up to you, you can testify from where you are or 8 you can testify up here. 9 MR. QUINN: Okay, it doesn't matter to 10 me. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, would you raise 12 your right hand? 13 WHEREUPON, 14 MICHAEL QUINN 15 was called as a witness by Counsel for the 16 Respondent and, having been first duly sworn, 17 assumed the witness stand, was examined and 18 testified as follows: 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 20 State your name for the record and spell your 21 first and last name, please. 22 THE WITNESS: Michael R. Quinn, M-I-C-

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### 1-104 1 H-A-E-L, the initial R, Quinn, Q-U-I-N-N. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: You're pro se, Mr. 3 

### Quinn. I'll give you some latitude. But 4 typically, I've actually never seen this done, 5 but typically there's a question and an answer, 6 

### and a question and the answer. But I'll allow 7 you to testify in a narrative form. B 

### Correspondingly, I'll give the FAA 9 attorney a little more latitude on cross. 10 

### THE WITNESS: That's fine. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: So tell your story in 12 the manner that you want to tell it. 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION 14 THE WITNESS: A little bit about my 15 

### history. I started flying when I was 12 years 16 

### old dn my grandfather's farm. I went to an 17 aviation college, the oldest one in the country, 18 Parks College. 19 

### After college, I went into the Navy 20 and became a Naval officer flying off of aircraft 21 carriers. I did that for seven or eight years. 22 Subsequent to that, I began flying for Braniff

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### 1-105 1 International out of Dallas, Texas flying 727s, 2 DC-8s, eventually moving into management at 3 Braniff. 4 

### They went bankrupt in 1982 and I've 5 been pretty much on my own ever since. Heavily 6 involved in large commercial aircraft, 727s, DC7 

### 8s, 747 freighters; I've been involved in 8 converting a number of airplanes. 9 

### Currently involved in converting a 10 large airplane. I founded Asia Pacific Airlines 11 approximately 16 years ago, and we've been 12 successfullyflying 727 freighters in the Pacific 13 arena for the last 15 years or so. 14 I was heavily involved in writing our 15 manuals. Exhibit 1, the loadplanning and weight 16 manifest, is a document that I designed and 17 created myself. 18 I do all the weight and balance 19 calculations on the airplane, or for the 20 aircraft. I'm a commercial pilot, type rated in 21 727, and flew our aircraft up until I turned 65 22 two years ago.

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1 And so I've flown the aircraft in 2 question, and I've flown the aircraft in question 3 with Continental'sengines on it on more than one 4 occasion. 5 I received a letter from Clarence via 6 our attorney in Washington

-- from Inspector 7 Kanae, excuse me regarding this particular 8 engine. And I would like to give a little bit of 9 background about how this process works between 10 Continental and United airlines. 11 Ms. Flores testified to some of it. 12 Continental has a unit of people based on the 13 east side of the field, of the airport in Guam 14 who packages and prepares documents for items 15 that Continental wants to ship. 16 And they notify Asia Pacific Airlines 17 that they have an engine. We say, "Fine, we've 18 done that before." The engine is brought to us 19 on the west side of the field along with the 20 documents. 21 In this particular case, the engine 22 was delivered a bit late. The crew was already

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1 

### in the process of setting up the flight. And 2 when we saw the documents, the alrway bill and 3 the documents on the engine we said, "Hey, wait a 4 

### minute. This engine is too heavy for us to 5 

### carry." 6 

### We're well aware of the limitationsof 7 

### our airplanes. We're well aware of the 10,000 8 

### pound limit for the pallet position number 8 

### in 9 

### which the engine was loaded. We don't contest 10 

### that. 11 

### We went back to Continental and said, 12 

### ''You've got to take some stuff off this engine 13 

### and get the weight down, which they did." That's 14 

### the 316 

### pounds that wound up on a separatepallet 15 

### in the back of the airplane. 16 

### Over the years, to the knowledge of 17 

### the people that worked for me in Guam, 18 Continental has never weighed one of these 19 engines because their scales don't go that high 20 in Guam, or did not at that time. 21 

### 22 They've subsequentlygot a new scale, ln part as a result of this investigation. So I

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### 1 guess there's some benefit to it. 2 There was other things involved here. 3 This particular flight was scheduled to fly from 4 Guam to Ponape and then to Majuro, and then to 5 Honolulu since our aircraft doesn't have the 6 capability of flying to Honolulu non-stop. 7 And we were constrained that day by 8 the fact that they were doing work on the runway 9 on Ponape and they were going to close the 10 airport. And everybody was in a panic to try to 11 get this paperwork done correctly. 12 We were confident that after they took 13 the weight off the engine, even though the 14 casters were still on, that we were under 10,000 15 pounds. We have already agreed with the FAA that 16 the paperwork was incorrect. 17 

### That said, I would say that it's a 18 common practice to spreadweights that weigh more 19 than an individual pallet position over multiple 20 

### positions. In this case, the three positions 21 involved were positions seven, eight and nine. 22 And as alreadyhas been testified, the

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### 1-109 1 engine was in position eight, and I believe that 2 Inspector Kanae said that positions seven and 3 

### nine were empty. 4 

### And so the maximum weights across 5 

### those three positions are something like a little 6 

### bit more than 28,000 pounds that you would have 7 

### been able to put in those three positions. 8 

### That said, in order to do this 9 

### properly, if the engine had actuallyweighedmore 10 than 10,000 pounds, you would have had to put it 11 on a pallet and braced it to where some of the 12 weight was actually in the other pallet 13 

### positions. 14 

### I'm not sure if I'm making that 15 

### entirely clear. Do you know what I'm saying? 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. So from my 17 standpoint, some of the weight would have to be 18 in zone seven or nine? 19 

### THE WITNESS: Right. And it could 20 have just been a few inches in. 21 22

(202) 234·4433 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, I understand. THE WITNESS: But it would have had to

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-110 1 have been some kind of a bearing on the floor. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, okay. 3 THE WITNESS: We were confident that 4 the engine weighed less than 10,000 pounds. The 5 paperwork didn't reflect that necessarily; the 6 paperwork was filled out incorrectly. 7 And we had to get the flight off. We 8 didn't have enough time to get all this paperwork 9 done. Inspector Kanae testified that it takes 10 about 15 minutes to do the weight and balance 11 sheet. And yes, sometimes you can get it done in 12 15 minutes. 13 Sometimes it takes 20 or 25, it's a 14 complicateddocument. And so for at least a year 15 or two, we've agreed to be fine for having a 16 paperwork error. But only if they drop the 17 overweight engine charge, because in our view, 18 they have absolutely no evidence that it weighed 19 more than 10,000 pounds. 20 And I can assert that the engine was 21 not weighed in Guam because at the time, they 22 didn't have a scale to weigh something this

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### 1-111 1 heavy, or as heavy as they claim it to be. 2 Another aspect of this is that while 3 we believe it's important to toe the line and run 4 these guidelines, we have an aircraft that takes 5 

### off at 100 tons, 200,000 pounds. It carries 6 55,000 pounds of cargo; 400 pounds is nothing in 7 the scheme of things. 8 

### It's a very, very minor amount of 9 

### weight in context of what we do. I've described 10 it as the government coming after us for doing 31 11 miles an hour ln a 30 zone. That's about the 12 equivalent of it. 13 And so after Inspector wrote me the 14 letter saying he was starting the investigation, 15 I replied to him two weeks later. And he says 16 that he never got that letter, however the FAA 17 gave it as part of their evidence later that year 18 when they made their case. 19 

### And my problem with this is that I 20 wrote my letter to Inspector Kanae, I showed him 21 evidence of what the engine weighed. I showed 22 him evidence of what the stand weighed with the

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### 1-112

1 

### casters on it. It came out to less than what 2 they were asserting. 3 And even after we added back in the 4 pallet weight, the weight of the wood supports 5 and the nets, it still was less than 10,000 6 pounds, and he never replied to that. 7 

### And typically, in my 35 years in this 8 business, the FAA wouldn't just ship something 9 

### off to the legal team. They would call you and 10 say, you know, are you going to respond to my 11 

### letter or did you respond or what. They would 12 send an email before sending it off. 13 And so when I didn't hear back from 14 Inspector Kanae, I assumed the case had gone 15 away, which is typically how a lot of these 16 

### things occur. So when I got the letter from Mr. 17 Bobetz six months later, I was shocked. 18 

### And not only was I shocked that 19 Inspector Kanae would ignore the evidence that I 20 had submitted, but that the attorneys would also 21 ignore it. And

-- 22

(202) 234·4433 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, calls for

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### 1 speculation. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand that, 3 

### take it into consideration. Overruled. 4 

### THE WITNESS: I have a lot of 5 

### experience with commercial engines. I'm not so 6 sure how much experience that Inspector Kanae 7 has, but engines on an airplane, a commercial 8 airplane, you know, there's a bare engine. 9 Then there's certainequipment that is 10 normally shippedwith an engine like fuel control 11 

### and a gear box. And then there's additional 12 equipment like generators and starters that 13 sometimes is shipped with an engine, sometimes 14 it's not. 15 There's multiple pieces of equipment 16 generallycalled a quick engine change consisting 17 of plumbing, wires, ducting, all sorts of things 18 

### that all have weight. Sometimes they're shipped 19 with the engine, and sometimes they're not. 20 Continental did not keep a record of 21 what was on this engine or what was not on this 22 engine. We searched for it in hopes of proving

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### 1 our case, and they said they don't keep that 2 record. 3 

### What they do when they have an engine

4 lS 

### they pull something out of the drawer that 5 

### says the engine weighs this, the stand weighs 6 

### this, they add it all up and they put the number 7 

### on a piece of paper. 8 

### This engine was never weighed in Guam; 9 

### it was never weighed in Honolulu. And as Ms. 10 

### Flores testified, there's no way to weigh an 11 

### individual, no way to weigh an engine. 12 I 

### know that's a hard concept, but it's 13 

### not an approved procedure to take an engine and 14 

### set it down on the ground without it being on 15 

### some sort of a stand. And so the only way that 16 

### you can know what the engine weighs is you have 17 

### to do an audit of what's on it, the individual 18 

### pieces, and that was never done. 19 

### And this engine was covered, it 20 clearly is shown in the picture, Exhibit 2, that 21 

### it was covered. And so it's impossible to tell 22 from looking at this picture whether any of these

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### 1 items were or were not on the airplane. 2 And so the FAA's case about this 3 engine being overweight is entirely speculative. 4 And as I said, we got in a hurry, we didn't do 5 

### the paperwork correct. And we've agreed for 6 years to pay a fine, but we don't agree to the 7 level of the fine and that's another separate 8 argument. 9 And I have no objection to Ms. Flores 10 testifyingin this case, but she was not involved 11 directly with this engine in question. And you 12 know, nothing that she said, in my view, has a 13 bearing on this particular case. 14 

### She's observed other engines, she's 15 observedvarious bits and pieces of it, but never 16 

### collectively this englne. And as I've said, 17 we've carried engines, they've spread across a 18 lot of different weights. And it's our firm view 19 that this engine did not weigh more than 10,000 20 pounds. 21 22 have.

(202) 234·4433 

### And I think that's probably all I

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1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Bobertz, any 2 inquiry? 3 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, thank you, Your 4 Honor. 5 CROSS EXAMINATION 6 

### MR. BOBERTZ: So Mr. Quinn, you 7 testifiedthat you contacted, you got the englne, 8 the documents, and you said you knew it was 9 

### wrong; the engine wasn't over 10,000 pounds. So 10 you asked Continental to remove some weight and 11 they did, 316 pounds, isn't that correct? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 14 Q 

### So I'm looking at Administrator's 15 Exhibit A-5 and I see that. I see that 316 16 pounds was actually removed on Continental 17 Airlines Unit Load Device, two pieces were 18 removed. 19 

### And then looking at Exhibit A-6 as 20 we've talked before, the remaining weight from 21 that 10,400 pounds was 10,084. And when you add 22 the pallet and the straps and whatnot of 458

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### 1 pounds, you get to 10,542 pounds. 2 

### So I guess I'm a little confused 3 because you're saying you didn't have time to 4 correct the documents, but yet apparently United 5 or Continental went back and corrected this 6 document for you because now it shows 316 pounds 7 

### off here, and reduced the englne weight 8 

### according. And there you have it. So it looks 9 like the corrections you asked for were made by 10 Continental. 11 A 

### Well, the document that I thinkyou're 12 referring to is A-4, initially? 13 Q 

### No, I'm looking at A-5 and A-6 where 14 they show that 316 pounds. It's also on your 15 document as well, A-4, you're correct, 316 pounds 16 removed from the total engine weight. 17 A 

### You know, I don't question that. What 18 I questioned was that the weights that came over 19 originally, the 10,400 pounds on the airwaybill, 20 which is what we got, was incorrect. From 21 previous experience and from the facts, I mean, I 22 guess it's hard for me to describe.

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1 

### You know, the engine comes over, it's 2 sitting there. You got the flight crews rapidly 3 trying to figure out the paperwork. We're trying 4 to get the flight out because they're going to 5 close the airport and it's going to be delayed a 6 couple of days if that happens. 7 And we asked themto fix these things 8 

### and they scratched out some new numbers. But it 9 started from not from weighing anything but from 10 a file in a drawer. 11 Q 

### So how do they have time to scratch 12 out the new numbers but not correct the original 13 startingweight? They have time to give you a -- 14 A 

### Becausethat wouldhave requiredgoing 15 back across the field and having a new airway 16 bill because people on our side of the field 17 

### don't do airway bills. And it takes 15 or 20 18 minutes probably to get from one side of the 19 field to the other. 20 Q 

### So you said you requested corrected 21 bills, or corrected documents. So you're saying 22 that the Exhibits 5 and 6 were corrected, but

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-119 

### 1 that Exhibit A wasn't. But you did ask 2 Continental for corrected documents. 3 

### So where is the corrected version, 4 albeit maybe you didn't wait for

-- you took off 5 

### before you got it. Where is the corrected 6 document from Continental then? 7 A 

### Well, you know, Exhibit 4 is an Asia 8 

### Pacific document. And we believe that that 9 document is based on information that we were 10 provided by, and I'm going to assume this is 11 Continental Cargo as opposed to the shipping 12 group, after we asked them to remove some things 13 from this engine. 14 And Exhibits 5 and 6, I honestlydon't 15 know how exactlythey're connectedother than the 16 fact that it shows the 316 pounds migratingon to 17 this separate pallet. 18 Q 

### So you're saying you're so sure the 19 weight was wrong, yet you didn't even correct 20 your own document, your own cargo manifest to 21 show the correct weight. 22 A

(202) 234-4433 

### Now, we've admitted to the fact that

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.. NW WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-120

1 

### the paperwork is incorrect. We were in a 2 difficult position. Continental was saying 3 please take our engine, we need to get it out, 4 

### we're in a hurry. We're trying to get the flight 5 

### out. 6 

### We operate in a 

### very difficult 7 

### environment, okay? And we were satisfiedthat we 8 

### had questioned them on the engine, that we had 9 

### got them to reduce it below 10,000 

### pounds. 10 

### Then we got bogged down in trying to 11 

### get the paperwork correct because at APA there's 12 

### several people involved, but there's also several 13 

### people on both sides of the airport at 14 

### Continental that are involved, that you know, 15 

### that are responsible for getting the paperwork 16 

### right. 17 

### We eventually decided, and you know, 18 

### we will allow that it's a mistake although a 19 

### minor one, we left with incorrect paperwork. We 20 didn't have the 20 minutes to re-do the Exhibit 1 21 

### or to get a new airway bill typed up and across 22 the field back and forth.

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1 I mean, that's a process; getting a 2 new airway bill probablywould have taken an hour 3 at best. 4 Q So you never got corrected documents, 5 is that what you're saying? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Isn't that because the documents that 8 we have in front of us are correct, that 9 Continentalprobablyrefused to correct documents 10 that were already correct? 11 A No, we don't believe they are correct. 1.2 Q Who did you contact at Continental to 13 get corrected documents? 14 A I'm going to guess that that was a 15 conversationbetween Mr. Walker and Rose Onedera. 16 That would have been the beginning of the process 17 now. 18 Rose probablymight have contactedMs. 19 Flores, I don't know, or somebody in her office. 20 And they would have gone back and forth on this. 21 But as I said, we've carried other engines 22 successfully and properly for Continental for

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### 1 years. 2 (Off microphone comments) 3 

### MR. BOBERTZ: One moment please, Your 4 Honor. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 6 

### THE WITNESS: I guess the substance of 7 my argument is that this engine

-- 8 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor 9 

### THE WITNESS:

-- could have weighed 10 plus or minus 1,000 pounds depending on what was 11 attached to it and what was not attached to it. 12 There is no record of what was attached to it or 13 what wasn't attachedto it. The engine was never 14 weighed, period. 15 And so there's no evidence whatsoever 16 that would prove that this engine weighed 17 anything. It came off a piece of paper in 18 somebody's file over in Continental saying the 19 

### engine weighed X. And where that number came 20 from, I have no idea. 21 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, may I 22 approach?

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 2 MR. BOBERTZ: I have what's been 3 marked for identification purposes as 4 Administrator's Exhibit A-10, 11, and 12. 5 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 6 documents were marked as Administrator'sExhibits 7 A-10, A-11, and A-12 for identification.) 8 MR. BOBERTZ: Mr. Quinn, canyou tell 9 me -- 10 THE WITNESS: I'm objecting to -- 11 (Simultaneous speaking) 12 MR. BOBERTZ: what Exhibit A-10 is? 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, let's get 14 MR. BOBERTZ: Mr. Quinn, can you tell 15 me what Exhibit A-10 is? 16 THE WITNESS: Do I have it? 17 MR. BOBERTZ: I just gave it to you. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay, but I object to 19 it. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, it hasn't been 21 offered, so the objection is premature. 22

(202) 234-4433 THE WITNESS: It has no bearing

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### 1-124 1 whatsoever on the case in hand. 2 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Mr. Quinn, can you 3 please tell me what Exhibit A-10 is? 4 

### THE WITNESS: I have A-11, 12 and oh 5 

### 10. I guess that's 10. Okay. Your question 6 

### was? 7 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 8 Q 

### Can you please tell me what this 9 

### document is? 10 A 

### It's an Asia Pacific's load planner 11 and weight manifest. 12 Q 

### And when is it dated? 13 A 

### April 3rd, 2011. 14 Q 

### It's hard to tell whether it was April 15 

### 3rd, 2011 or March 4th, 2011. One was written 16 

### and one was scratched. So either way, it was 17 April or May 2011. 18 

### Mr. Quinn, to me this looks awfully 19 

### similar, close in time and awfully similar. You 20 just testified that you've been doing this for 21 years, you've never carried overweight engines. 22

(202) 234-4433 

### Yet, within a month plus or minus of

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### 1 the case at hand, we have another engine 9,500 2 pounds and then shown spread across two zones 3 with equal weight shown on either side. Yet you 4 just said you carried engines all the time and 5 you don't carry overweight engines. 6 A 

### I don't believe this has any bearing 7 

### on the case at hand. That said, this was never 8 

### presented to us. We never had a chance to look 9 

### into it. I have no idea what the crew was 10 thinking, what they were doing, what was said or 11 what was said or what was not said. 12 Q 

### Mr. Quinn

-- 13 A 

### We get into a bind with these things. 14 But this engine wouldn't have been weighed either 15 because they didn't have a scale or the ability 16 

### to weigh the engine. They have multiple people 17 putting these documents together. 18 They frequently come to us wrong and 19 we do our best to try to get them corrected in 20 

### time. And sometimes we fail to get them 21 corrected in time. 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 

### So Mr. Quinn, can you please look at

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1 

### Exhibit A-ll? And isn't that another englne 2 shipment, this one in two pieces, a gross weight 3 of 10,750 pounds? 4 A 

### Same response. 5 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. Your 'Honor, I 6 move that Administrator's Exhibits A-10 and A-ll 7 be moved into evidence. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: There's an objection. 9 I'm going to admit it, the objection is going to 10 go to the weight the Court's going to consider ln 11 weighing the relevancy of the exhibits. 12 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 13 

### documents were received into evidence as 14 Administrator's Exhibits A-10 and A-11.) 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: This is an 16 administrative proceeding, there's a little more 17 latitudegiven in the admissionof the documents. 18 

### It'll go to the weight that the Court. I don't 19 show that I admitted Exhibit 9, or that it was 20 offered. 21 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 22 If we didn't at the time, that was the photo of

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### 1 the engine that Ms. Flores testified about. And 2 the Administrator would offer Exhibit A-9 into 3 evidence. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you have any 5 

### objection to that, Mr. Quinn? It's the one of 6 just happens to be an engine. 7 

### THE WITNESS: Fine. I mean, I don't 8 

### have any objection to it, but it doesn't tell us 9 

### anything. It's another engine wrapped with a 10 tarp and where you can't tell what is on it or 11 what is not on it. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, understand 13 

### that. The Court takes note. 14 

### (Whereupon, the above-referred to 15 

### document was received into evidence as 16 Administrator's Exhibit No. A-9.) 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything else? 18 

### THE WITNESS: I have nothing. 19 MR. BOBERTZ: No, I'm sorry, Your 20 Honor. Still a few more. So Mr. Quinn, Exhibit 21 A-1, the Load Planner Weight Manifest, you 22 testified that you took of with it knowingly

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1 incorrect because you didn't have the time to 2 correct it. Did you correct it after the fact, 3 then? 4 THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't take off 5 with it; the flight crew took off with it. And 6 typically, they would not correct it once the 7 flight took off. It becomes a matter of record, 8 we're required to keep these for 90 days on file. 9 And all I can say is that since the 10 paperwork from Continental never got corrected, 11 they wouldn't have had anything else to base a 12 correction on. And again, you know, the amount 13 of pounds that are over here are tiny and 14 insignificantgiven the size of this airplane and 15 the fact that we could have carried nearly 30,000 16 pounds in position, in these three positions. 17 Q Mr. Quinn, are you familiar with how 18 the engineers calculate the maximum load for a 19 particular cargo area? 20 A 21 Q 22 A

(202) 234·4433 Yes, I am. And how did they do that? It's complicated. They're engineers.

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1 

### They have metal studies, but they always 2 calculate in 10 or 15 percent gravy over what 3 

### they really think the numbers are. 4 Q 

### And why is that? 5 A 

### And then they round the numbers to 6 

### make them easy to work with rather than having, 7 you know, individual four digit numbers. It's 8 not unlike a passenger carrier. 9 You have a 777 that holds 350 people. 10 They don't weigh every person and every bag that 11 goes onto the airplane. They have a round number 12 that they use. And on any given day, on an 13 airplane of that size it could be off by several 14 thousand pounds, plus or minus. 15 And we all live with that. And 16 typicallyin the cargo business, we all live with 17 a little laxity with respect to the numbers from 18 

### time to time. That's just the way it is. 19 There's absolutely no way that you could adhere 20 to everything that's out there. 21 I could give you another example. You 22 know, the rules say that we're supposed to weigh,

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1 

### calculate the center of gravity of every single 2 one of these pallets, that the center of gravity 3 of every single pallet has to be within a certain 4 

### distance of the center. 5 

### Nobody does that. That would be 6 

### impossible. You would never get anything shipped 7 

### if you had to do that. You put, you know, the 8 

### boxes and the engines and the cargo that you're 9 

### carrying and you put it on there based on 10 

### eyeballing it so that it's not all on one end. 11 

### You know, you don't put all the books 12 

### on one end and all the feathers on the other end. 13 

### MR. BOBERTZ: I have no further 14 

### questions. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Any additional 16 

### testimony, Mr. Quinn? 17 

### MR. QUINN: No. No, thank you. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Any further evidence 19 in this case? 20 21 

### 22 Quinn.

(202) 234-4433 

### MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. JUDGE GOODWIN: I meant to ask Mr. Do you have any additional witnesses

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### 1 besides yourself? 2 

### MR. QUINN: I do not. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So that 4 concludes the case -- this case. Okay. Let's go 5 off the record just long enough to let Cameron 6 

### get his notes together. Okay, so we're going to 7 go off the record for a minute. 8 (Whereupon, the above-entitledmatter 9 went off the record at 3:15p.m. and resumed at 10 3:18p.m.) 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: We're back on the 12 record. We were off the record and had 13 

### discussions about we've concluded 0468. We had 14 discussions about commencing the next case. We 15 have about an hour and a half of usable time here 16 for the courthouse. 17 What we're going to do with respect to 18 0469, we will reconvene at 0800 tomorrow. We 19 will start that case and go until its conclusion. 20 So with that, we'll go off the record, 21 reconvene at 8 o'clock in the morning here. And 22 I'll probably be here a little early, so we'll

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331-132 1 get startedpromptly at 8 o'clock in the morning. 2 All right? 3 Anything el.se? Okay, we're off the 4 record. 5 (Whereupon, the hearing went off the 6 record at 3:19p.m.) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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24:5 26:1562:3,6,21 admission23:3 126:17 airspace38:3 93:8 94:9 95:12 62:2263:465:16,17 admit126:9 airway3:11 54:2055:2 105:10106:16119:7 66:3 67:9,20 98:3 admitted24:1 53:8 63:1464:9,2065:6,20 124:10 116:19117:13 119:22 126:19 66:2,19 90:16 91:17 aside9:2 A-7 3:17 28:6,2229:9 admonished88:17 97:18107:2 117:19 asked 15:721:1025:5

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Neal R. GrossandCo., Inc. Washington DC Volume 1 146 9

www.nealrgross.com147 C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of: Aero Micronesia

Before: US DOT/OH

Date: 12-01-14

Place: Honolulu, Hi

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

(202)234-4433 Court Reporter

NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com