II 

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

1-l 

RECEIV· D 

IN THE MATTER OF 

JAN 1 3 2015 

HEARING DOCKET 

AERO MICRONESIA, FDMS NO. 

FAA-2012-0468 

Respondent. FAA-2012-0469 

Volume 1 

Monday, 

December 1, 2014 

Courtroom 8 

U.S. District Court House 

300 Ala Moana Blvd. 

Honolulu, Hawaii 

The above-entitled matter came on for 

hearing, pursuant to notice, at 12:36 p.m. 

BEFORE: THE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GOODWIN, 

Administrative Law Judge 

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NEAL R. GROSS 

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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Complainant 

DON BOBERTZ, ESQ. 

of: Federal Aviation Administration 

Western-Pacific Region 

Office of Regional Counsel 

AWP-7.7 

P.O. Box 92007 

Los Angeles, CA 90009-2007 

(310) 725-3454 

don.bobertz®faa.gov 

On Behalf of the Respondent 

MICHAEL QUINN, pro se 

of: Aero Micronesia 

156 Diablo Road 

Suite 203 

Danville, CA 94526 

(925) 362-4430 

mikequinn1@earthlink.net 

NEAL R. GROSS 

1-2 

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CONTENTS 

WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 

CLARENCE KANAE 10 34 

CATHERINE FLORES 60 80 

MICHAEL QUINN 104 116 

Exhibit No. Document 

Administrator 

A-1 Asia Pacific Load Planner 

Weight Manifest 

A-2 Photo of Engine as shipped 

on March 25th, 2011 

A-3 Airway Bill 

A-4 Asia Pacific Airlines 

Cargo Manifest 

A-5 Document referring to the 

weight of Pallet 72217 

A-6 Document referring to the 

weight of Pallet 72083 

A-7 Copy of Tan Holdings 

website 

A-8 FAA Compliance and 

Enforcement Program 2153(b) 

Appendix B 

A-9 Photo of Engine as weighed 

A-10 Asia Pacific Load Planner 

and Weight Manifest dated 

April 3rd, 2011 

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98 99 

ID'd Rec'd 

16 18 

16 19 

21 24 

21 24 

21 24 

21 24 

28 29 

30 

76 127 

123 126 

(202) 234-4433 
Exhibit No. Document 

Administrator 

A-ll Asia Pacific Load Planner 

and Weight Manifest 

A-12 

Respondent 

R-1 

R-2 

Mr. Quinn's April 20th, 2011 

reply to the Letter of 

Investigation 

Clear copy of Pages 6 of 9 

and 7 of 9 of Exhibit R-1 

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ID'd Rec'd 

123 126 

123 

44 

51 

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1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (12:36 p.m.) 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: For the record, this 

4 is two cases of Aero Micronesia, FAA docket 

5 number 2012-0468 and 2012-0469. Counsel, you 

6 want to identify yourself for the record, please? 

7 MR. BOBERTZ: Don Bobertz, counsel for 

8 the Complainant, the FAA Administrator. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. And Mr. Quinn, 

10 you want to identify yourself, please? 

11 MR. QUINN: Yes. Mike Quinn, 

12 President of Aero Micronesia and Respondent, I 

13 guess. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. As you all 

15 know, these are informal hearings, although we do 

16 follow formal rules, the rules of procedure. I'm 

17 going to ask you during the course of the hearing 

18 if the court reporter hears something he doesn't 

19 understand, just raise your hand and we '11 

20 attempt to spell it for you either at that time 

21 or other appropriate time. 

22 If as we go through the case there's 

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1 anything that should be considered confidential, 

2 let me know and we can go off the record, treat 

3 that separately, or I can seal all or parts of 

4 the record. 

5 The Court's particularly concerned 

6 about personal identifiable information like 

7 social security numbers, phone numbers. Please 

8 make sure that any of the exhibits and documents 

9 that you submit have any personal identifying 

10 information redacted. Have the witnesses use 

11 business addresses and so forth. 

12 I've got a hearing disability, so if 

13 I ask you to repeat something, don't take it 

14 personally. And for the court reporter, I only 

15 need a digital copy of the transcript. If you 

16 need a hard copy, just clear that with the court 

17 reporter. 

18 MR. BOBERTZ: Digital will be fine. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: And then finally, I 

20 don't care how you mark exhibits as long as you 

21 don't use the same numeration. So Mr. Bobertz, 

22 we had the court room until 5 o'clock, and then 

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1 if need be, we can start at 7:45 in the morning. 

2 I had talked before you got here, Mr. 

3 Quinn, about ways to expedite it. There are 

4 ways, if there's testimony that's going to be 

5 replicated in both cases, we can copy over some 

6 of the testimony, assuming that that's okay with 

7 you. 

8 Everybody's going to have a full 

9 opportunity to cross examine. Mr. Bobertz, did 

10 you want to make an opening statement? 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: Briefly, Your Honor. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

13 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, the evidence 

14 will show that Aero Micronesia prepared an 

15 inaccurate manifest by showing on the load 

16 planner weight manifest that the weight of an 

17 engine it was transporting was spread over three 

18 cargo zones in the aircraft, when in fact it was 

19 located only in one single zone, a violation of 

20 FAR 121-665. 

21 And the evidence will also show that 

22 the weight of the engine exceeded the placarded 

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1 weight allowance for that cargo zone that it was 

2 placed in, a violation of 91.9(a) 

3 The Administrator will call Aviation 

4 Safety Inspector Clarence Kanae who conducted the 

5 investigation in this case, and obtained many of 

6 the documents in this case to discuss his 

7 investigation in the case. 

8 And we will also call United Airlines, 

9 previously Continental Airlines, Guam Warehouse 

10 Supervisor Catherine Flores. And Ms. Flores will 

11 testify about the Continental shipping process 

12 and documentation. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. Quinn, you 

14 can make an opening statement now if you want to, 

15 or you can wait until the beginning of your case. 

16 It's your call. 

17 MR. QUINN: Just briefly, Judge 

18 Goodwin. It's our view that the FAA has been a 

19 little overzealous in these cases. This never 

20 should have dragged on. They violated their own 

21 FAA procedures and are trying to hold Asia 

22 Pacific to a standard that's basically not 

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1 possible. 

2 And aside from the specific charges, 

3 there's some additional factors with respect to 

4 the way the regional FAA legal staff has handled 

5 these cases that at some point will have to be 

6 addressed. And I think that piece overlaps both 

7 cases. You referred to that. We maybe could do 

8 that last. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Mr. 

10 Bobertz, do you want to call your first witness? 

ll MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. The 

12 Administrator calls Aviation Safety Inspector 

13 Clarence Kanae. 

14 MR. KANAE: Good afternoon, Your 

15 Honor. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: You want to come over 

17 here? If you'll stand and raise your right hand. 

1 8 WHEREUPON, 

19 CLARENCE KANAE 

20 was called as a witness by Counsel for the 

21 Administrator and, having been first duly sworn, 

22 assumed the witness stand, was examined and 

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1 testified as follows: 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. And 

3 would you state your full name for the record and 

4 spell your first and last name. 

5 THE WITNESS: Sure. My name is 

6 Clarence Keliionakoa Kanae spelled C-L-A-R-E-N-C7 E, middle initial K, last name K-A-N-A-E. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

9 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

10 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

11 Inspector Kanae, can you tell me where you're 

12 employed? 

13 THE WITNESS: I'm employed with the 

14 Federal Aviation Administration. And that's 

15 located at 135 Nakolo Place, Honolulu, Hawaii. 

16 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

17 Q And how long have you been employed 

18 there? 

19 A I've been employed with the Federal 

20 Aviation Administration for 20 years. 

21 Q Can you briefly describe for me your 

22 aviation experience, both within and outside of 

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1 the FAA? 

2 A Certainly. My aviation experience 

3 started back in 1968 when I learned how to fly as 

4 a private pilot. And it progressed into the 

5. military when I enlisted into the warrant officer 

6 helicopter flight training program back ln 1977. 

7 I've spent ten years on active duty 

8 and 32 years of Hawaii Army National Guard, 

9 mainly as a helicopter pilot, and retired just 

10 recently in 2012 at the rank of CW4. 

11 And for my civilian experlence, I've 

12 flown civilian helicopters and civilian aircraft 

13 here ln Hawaii. I also have 121 experience 

14 flying for an air carrier here in Hawaii as well. 

15 Total flight time is over 16,000 hours, 11,000 of 

16 helicopters and the remaining fixed wing. 

17 Q Thank you. And what is your current 

18 position with the FAA? 

19 A I'm currently assigned to oversee Asia 

20 Pacific Airlines doing business as Aero 

21 Micronesia, Inc. I'm the principal operations 

22 inspector for this air carrier. 

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1 Q And can you briefly describe your job 

2 duties? 

3 A As a safety inspector, our duties and 

4 responsibilities is quite, quite wide in scope. 

5 Some of the duties, and I'll just name a few, is 

6 to investigate action investigations, do 

7 surveillance of air carriers, certification of 

8 air carriers, and also certification of airmen. 

9 I also am tasked to do inspections on 

10 the air carrier that I have oversight of, and 

11 surveillance as well on the air carrier that I am 

12 assigned to oversee. 

13 Q So you mention part of your duties 

14 include inspection of air carriers, specifically 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Aero Micronesia. Do you recall conducting an 

inspection of Aero Micronesia on March 25th, 

2011? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q What can you tell me about that 

inspection? What type of inspection, what made 

you conduct the inspection? 

A 

(202) 234-4433 

On that day, there were three of us. 

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1 There was a team of three inspectors that had 

2 oversight of this particular carrier. I'm the 

3 operations inspector. There was Vickie Stahlberg 

4 who was the maintenance inspector, and then the 

5 avionics inspector Kahale Hoe. 

6 All three of us did an unannounced 

7 ramp inspection at the Honolulu International 

8 Airport as an Asia Pacific aircraft came in from 

9 Montreux. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Was that Kahale Hoe, 

11 was that you need spelled? 

12 COURT REPORTER: Yes. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you know how to 

14 spell Kahale Hoe? 

15 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's K-A-H-A-L-E, 

16 H-0-E. Kahale Hoe. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Great, thank you. Go 

18 ahead, Counsel. 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: So the three of you went 

20 to inspect Aero Micronesia, do a ramp inspection 

21 that day. So how does that happen? You go, the 

22 plane comes in, you go up to the plane, do you 

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1 tell them you're coming? 

2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

3 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

4 Q Go ahead. 

5 A What basically occurs is that all 

6 three of us arrived at the ramp area where the 

7 aircraft had already been parked, and started 

8 being offloaded at the ramp area. So all three 

9 of us have different specialties. So we actually 

10 went in our own progression to do specific 

11 inspections. 

12 I went up to the cockpit to interview 

13 the flight crew captain, first officer, and 

14 flight engineer. There, I checked for their 

15 currency of pilot certificates, medical 

16 certificates. 

17 I also looked at the flight logs and 

18 weight manifest, and basically safety equipment 

19 to make sure that the safety equipment 

20 inspections were current. 

21 Q 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Okay. And then what happened? 

As I was in the cockpit, I noticed 

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1 that the loading procedures had stopped. So I 

2 inquired about why was the offloading of the 

3 cargo ceased. 

4 And so I approached the, I guess he 

5 would be the cargo manager, the loader that was 

6 in charge of all of the ground personnel. I 

7 asked why are we all stopping to offload the 

8 aircraft. And his comment 

9 Q I'm sorry. And then so what did he 

10 say? 

11 A His comment was well, we have a cargo 

12 that's quite heavy, so we need to change the 

13 loader equipment to handle this heavier cargo 

14 that's going to be offloaded. 

15 Q Okay. So were you back where he was 

16 doing the offloading at that time, or did you see 

17 the cargo at that time? 

18 A I did. I went back and I saw the 

19 engine inside of the cabin. All the cargo 

20 forward of the engine was offloaded already. So 

21 all I could see was the engine on a stand on a 

22 pallet ready to be offloaded. 

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1 Q Okay. And then what, did you notice 

2 anything with the engine that concerned you? 

3 A Yes. Took a photo of this particular 

4 cargo, the engine itself. I noticed that the 

5 engine in its entirety, to include the engine 

6 stand was strapped to a LD7 pallet, which is what 

7 we call, laymen's term, a cookie sheet pallet. 

8 And it was only strapped and 

9 configured to be loaded on that one particular 

10 cookie sheet pallet. And that pallet can only 

11 fit on one actually, one actual position in the 

12 aircraft. 

13 Q And what's the problem with that? 

14 A In comparison to the load manifest, it 

15 indicated that all the weights was transfer 

16 across three zones. But in fact, the way it was 

17 rigged was only secured and for shipment was for 

18 one zone. 

19 Q Your Honor, I have what's been marked 

20 as Administrator's Exhibits A-1 and A-2. May I 

21 approach? 

22 

(202) 234·4433 

(Whereupon, the above-referred to 

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1 documents were marked as Administrator 1 s Exhibits 

2 A-1 and A-2 for identification.) 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Make sure Mr. 

4 Quinn has a chance. 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: And we discussed these 

6 ahead of time, Your Honor, and we briefly talked 

7 about foundation. But I think that we don 1 t 

8 believe Mr. Quinn has any objection to these 

9 exhibits. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: I gave you two, correct? 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Two different ones, 

13 yes. 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: Inspector Kanae, I think 

15 you mentioned earlier in your testimony about 

16 seeing a manifest. Can you please tell me, do 

17 you recognize Exhibit A-1? 

18 THE WITNESS: Yes. Exhibit A-1 is an 

19 Asia Pacific Airlines load planner weight 

20 manifest. 

21 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. And is this one 

22 of the documents you got from Aero Micronesia at 

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l the time when you were doing the inspection? 

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is correct. 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 

4 Administrator's Exhibit A-1 into evidence. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection, Mr. 

6 Quinn? 

7 MR. QUINN: No. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Exhibit A-1 for 

9 identification is received into evidence as A-1. 

10 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 

11 document was received into evidence as 

12 Administrator's Exhibit A-1.) 

13 MR. BOBERTZ: And Inspector Kanae, do 

14 you recognize Exhibit A-2? 

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 

16 MR. BOBERTZ: And what is that? 

17 THE WITNESS: This is the actual 

18 aircraft engine that was shipped that morning on 

19 March 25th, 2011 on board the actual aircraft. 

20 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 

21 Administrator's Exhibit A-2 into evidence. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. 

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Quinn, any 

(202) 234-4433 
1-19 

1 objection? Any objection, Mr. Quinn? 

2 MR. QUINN: I 'm sorry. I didn't hear. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

4 MR. QUINN: I have a little bit of a 

5 hearing problem, too. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. He offered 

7 Exhibit 2 into evidence. Do you have any 

8 objection? 

9 MR. QUINN: Oh, I do not. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Exhibit 2 for 

11 identification is received into evidence as 

12 Agency Exhibit 2. 

13 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 

14 document was received into evidence as 

15 Administrator's Exhibit A-2.) 

16 MR. BOBERTZ: So Inspector Kanae, 

17 looking at Administrator's Exhibit A-1, the load 

18 planner weight manifest, can you summarize what 

19 the significance of that document and what you 

20 found? 

21 

22 

(202) 234·4433 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Just to clarify, are 

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1 we on 468 or 469, the case? 

2 MR. BOBERTZ: We are on 68. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, thank you. 

4 MR. BOBERTZ: So, Inspector Kanae 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Make sure 

6 MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sorry? 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Make sure your notes 

8 show that. Go ahead. 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: So Administrator's 

10 Exhibit A-1, can you describe the significance of 

11 that document in summary? 

12 THE WITNESS: Yes. What this 

13 indicates is that one of the crew members 

14 computed this weight and balance weight manifest. 

15 And in Zone 8 it indicates that the engine in 

16 question is at Zone 8, but distributed forward of 

17 Zone 8 into Zone 7, and distributed weight aft of 

18 Zone 8 into Zone 9. 

19 And in fact, it's in conflict with 

20 what I actually saw in the aircraft whereby the 

21 engine was on one particular pallet that can only 

22 be secured in one zone. 

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1 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

2 Q So that's in conflict with this 

3 Exhibit A-1 that shows the load was spread across 

4 three zones? 

5 A Yes, sir. 

6 Q So then what happened? 

7 A So after I took a photo, myself and 

8 the two other inspectors went to Continental 

9 Shipping Warehouse and I approached t'he manager 

10 for the Continental Shipping Office and asked her 

11 if I could get documents for this particular 

12 flight, documents that include the weight and 

13 balance, and weigh bill. Any of the documents 

14 regarding this shipment. 

15 Q And did she give you those? 

16 A Yes, she did. 

17 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I have 

18 what's been marked for identification purposes as 

19 Administrator's Exhibits A-3, A-4, A-5, and A-6. 

20 May I approach? 

21 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 

22 documents were marked as Administrator's Exhibits 

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1 A-3, A-4, A-5, and A-6 for identification.) 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: All right, bear with me 

4 for one minute. 

5 THE WITNESS: Is it okay if I get a 

6 drink of water? 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

8 MR. BOBERTZ: Did I give you duplicate 

9 copies, Mr. Quinn? 

10 MR. QUINN: I think I have copies of 

11 these, though. 

12 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. Well keep those, 

13 you don't mind if I share yours? 

14 MR. QUINN: No. 

15 MR. BOBERTZ: I don't have a full copy 

16 apparently. I' 11 hold a copy for Inspector Kanae 

17 and the Judge. 

18 (Pause.) 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: May I see, I'm sorry. 

20 All right, my apologies for the delay. We're all 

21 straight now. 

22 right. 

(202) 234-4433 

I just couldn't see my numbers 

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1 I believe prior to the hearing we went 

2 over these documents, and I don't believe Mr. 

3 Quinn has any objection to admission of documents 

4 3, 4, 5, and 6. Perhaps we could cut short the 

5 foundational testimony? 

6 MR. QUINN: No. 

7 MR. BOBERTZ : Okay, thank you, Mr. 

8 Quinn. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: No objection, Mr. 

10 Quinn? 

11 MR. QUINN: No object ion to any of 

12 them. 

13 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: FAA Exhibits 4, 5, and 

15 6 for identification are received into evidence 

16 respectfully as Agency 4, 5, and 6. 

17 

18 well? 

19 

20 5. 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. BOBERTZ: And 3, Your Honor, as 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry, 3, 4, and 

MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, and 6. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Exhibits 3, 4, 

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1 5, and 6 Agency are all admitted as 3, 4, 5, and 

2 6 respectfully. 

3 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 

4 documents were received into evidence as 

5 Administrator's Exhibits A-3, A-4, A-5 and A-6.) 

6 MR. QUINN: I assume that insofar as 

7 I don't have any objections to the exhibits, 

8 that's not the same as agreeing to the facts at 

9 question? 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, you can still 

11 make inquiry with respect to exhibits, that's 

12 fine. 

13 MR. BOBERTZ: So Inspector Kanae, just 

14 briefly, can you summarize your findings 

15 regarding these exhibits? Backing up for just a 

16 moment, you were just talking about going to the 

17 Continental Cargo folks. 

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct. 

19 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

20 Q And are these the documents that you 

21 received from them? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Yes, but I have one more item if I 

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1 could. 

2 Q Sure, go ahead. 

3 A Prior to leaving the aircraft for the 

4 cargo warehouse, I talked to the load supervisor 

5 and asked if there was any cargo placed in Zone 7 

6 or in Zone 9. He replied no, there wasn't any. 

7 And then we proceeded to the Continental Cargo 

8 warehouse. 

9 Q Okay. And then these are the 

10 documents you gathered from them? 

11 A Yes, that's correct. 

12 Q Okay. And can you briefly summarize 

13 what the documents meant for you? 

14 A Sure. So upon requesting the 

15 documents, I reviewed the weigh bill, Continental 

16 Airlines weigh bill. 

17 Q And which exhibit is that? 

18 A That is 

19 Q Down at the bottom right hand corner, 

20 roughly? I think of Exhibit A-3? 

21 A Oh, Exhibit A-3. 

22 Q Thank you. 

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1 A Exhibit A-3. And upon examining it, 

2 it does indicate that an aircraft engine was 

3 being shipped from Guam to Honolulu, it's gross 

4 weight was 10,400 pounds. 

5 Q What about the Exhibits A-4, 5, and 6? 

6 Did those 

7 A Sure. 

8 Q -- tell you anything different? 

9 A I would like to just kind of like go 

10 out of sequence, if that's okay. 

11 Q That's fine. 

12 A Exhibit A-5 indicates that on pallet 

13 72217, there was 316 pounds on that particular 

14 shipment. If we were to take the 316 pounds and 

15 add it to Exhibit A-6 of 1, 084 pounds, that would 

16 come out to 10,400 pounds listed on Exhibit A-3. 

17 Q And what does that mean? 

18 A What that means is the Continental 

19 Airlines weigh bill matches the actual weigh bill 

20 of Asia Pacific Airlines Cargo manifest on 

21 Exhibit A-4. 

22 Q And what does that tell you about the 

(202) 234·4433 

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1 weight of the engine? 

2 A That it's over 10,000 pounds. 

3 Q So then what happened? You got these 

4 exhibits from the cargo folks. Did you leave the 

5 airport? Did you go back and talk to Aero 

6 Micronesia? What happened next? 

7 A Well, I felt that perhaps I should 

8 take another step in investigating this 

9 particular incident by having the engine weighed. 

10 And so I had a conference with my 

11 fellow inspectors and they basically told me, you 

12 know, we have enough documentation here which is 

13 certified by the airlines, and that that should 

14 suffice versus having an engine placed on the 

15 scale. And so this is enough. 

16 And so I agreed, and we decided not to 

17 weigh the engine. 

18 Q Wouldn't weighing the engine be a 

19 fairly simple thing to do? 

20 A Yes. However, in the process it 

21 could, the engine could itself get damaged, or 

22 maybe the scale could get damaged. So instead of 

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1-28 

1 taking that risk, I decided to just go ahead and 

2 take these documents as evidence. 

3 Q Thank you, Inspector Kanae. Your 

4 Honor, I have what's been marked for 

5 identification purposes as Administrator's 

6 Exhibit A-7. May I approach? 

7 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 

8 document was marked as Administrator's Exhibit A9 7 for identification.) 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: And Inspector Kanae, do 

12 you recognize this document? 

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: And what is it? 

15 THE WITNESS: This is a copy of the 

16 actual Tan Holdings website. 

17 MR. BOBERTZ: And did you view that 

18 information on the website? 

19 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, I have 

20 reviewed the Tan Holdings website. 

21 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 

22 Administrator's Exhibit A-7 into evidence. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1-29 

l JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, do you have 

2 any objection? Do you have any objection? 

3 MR. QUINN: I do not. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Exhibit 7 for 

5 identification is received into evidence as 

6 Exhibit 7. 

7 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 

8 document was received into evidence as 

9 Administrator's Exhibit A-7.) 

10 MR. BOBERTZ: And Inspector Kanae, 

11 what's the concern with having the inaccurate 

12 manifest, as you testified earlier? 

13 THE WITNESS: There's some safety 

14 concerns and safety ramifications, and also non15 compliance to the regulations. I'd like to tap 

16 on the safety aspect of it first whereby if there 

17 lS an overloaded cargo placed on a particular 

18 portion of the airplane that's not configured or 

19 certified for, it could cause problems through 

2 0 the airframe or integrity of the aircraft itself, 

21 which could be a safety hazard. 

22 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

(2021 234-4433 

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1-30 

1 Q What about the manifest error itself, 

2 is that a problem? 

3 A Yes, because it's inaccurate. And 

4 therefore, anyone looking at the manifest could 

5 say okay, it's fine, everything's fine. The load 

6 has been distributed accordingly to meet all the 

7 zone limits. However, in this case, it did not. 

8 And so 

9 Q Would there be times that you or 

10 someone else may just rely on the cargo manifest 

11 for accuracy and not actually look at the load to 

12 see that it didn't match? 

13 A Yes, that could happen. 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I have 

15 what's been marked as Administrator's Exhibit A-8 

16 for identification purposes. May I approach? 

17 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 

18 document was marked as Administrator's Exhibit A19 8 for identification.) 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

21 MR. BOBERTZ: And this is actually 

22 just the FAA Compliance and Enforcement Program 

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1-31 

1 2153 (b) Appendix B that I actually asked that the 

2 Court take judicial notice of. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Generally, Mr. 

4 Quinn, the FAA in all of these cases, 2150 (a) 

5 talks about the enforcement that has the matrix 

6 and everything else on it. What I normally do is 

7 take judicial notice and that saves me several 

8 filing cabinets full of duplicate copies of this. 

9 MR. QUINN: Okay. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: So Counsel knows that, 

11 but are you offering it at this point? 

12 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. For convenience, 

13 I took the liberty of making a copy of the 

14 Appendix B. And I know I discussed it with 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Morris and I used to 

16 have this conversation all the time. He would 

17 always bring a copy, move a copy, and I would 

18 always take judicial notice. But to be 

19 consistent, the Court takes judicial notice of 

20 Federal Aviation Order 5150.3 (b) effective date 

21 October 1st, '07. 

22 It is the type of document of which 

(202) 234-4433 

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1-32 

1 the Court can take judicial notice, which is 

2 regulations and laws and other things which are 

3 generally available in the public domain. So the 

4 Court will take judicial notice of Exhibit A-8. 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: I have no further 

6 questions for Inspector Kanae, Your Honor. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, before you 

8 make inquiry, let me just, the Court wants to 

9 make sure I understand. Mr. Kanae, if you look 

10 at Exhibit 1, and there's Zone 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 

11 12. What is PAG? Does that just mean package? 

12 THE WITNESS: PAG lS the pallet 

13 number. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So if I'm 

15 looking at the first line, to the left it says 

16 COMAT. And PAG 72083, is that Charlie Oscar? 

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's Charlie 

18 Oscar standing for Continental. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Oh, I see. 

20 Okay. So according to the manifest, that 

21 particular pallet would be distributed over Zone 

22 7, 8, and 9, is that correct? 

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1-33 

1 THE WITNESS: According to this 

2 manifest, yes, Your Honor. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Yes, I'm just 

4 trying to understand that. Now if you jump to 

5 Exhibit 3, is there information on there that 

6 ties it to the pallet? 

7 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, because 

8 it was weighed on a scale. So they take the raw 

9 weight or the actual weight. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now Exhibit 4, 

11 again that's pallet 72217 Continental, is that 

12 right? 

13 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: And then there's some 

15 numbers above that, Lima, is that the weight? 

16 THE WITNESS: No, that's pounds, sir. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Pounds, okay. Okay, 

18 I'm just trying to get the nomenclature down. 

19 You're finished with the witness, Mr. Bobertz? 

20 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, I am. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay then, Mr. Quinn, 

22 would you like to ask this gentleman some 

(202) 234-4433 

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1-34 

1 questions? 

2 MR. QUINN: I would. Thank you. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: And Mr. Quinn, you can 

4 also ask him questions based on my questions. 

5 I'm just trying to wrap my head around the 

6 nomenclature here. 

7 MR. QUINN: I think some of mine will 

8 try to clarify some of this. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Thank you. 

10 CROSS EXAMINATION 

11 MR. QUINN: Inspector Kanae, I 

12 appreciate that you're taking time today on your 

13 vacation. I believe that you testified that you 

14 have some Part 121 experlence. Could you 

15 elaborate on that, exactly who that was and what 

16 type of airplanes they had? 

17 THE WITNESS: Sure. I was a first 

18 officer on a 121 Hawaii inter-island air carrier. 

19 The name of the air carrier is Mid-Pacific 

20 Airlines that flew 60 passenger aircraft, turbo 

21 propeller, turbo prop. 

22 

(202) 234·4433 

MR. QUINN: Props. And how heavy an 

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1-35 

1 airplane was that max takeoff weight, roughly? 

2 THE WITNESS: About 154 to, depending 

3 on the actual model. They had three different 

4 models. It ranged from 154,000 to 180,000, I 

5 think, if I remember correctly. 

6 MR. QUINN: 80,000 pounds? I don't 

7 think so. For 60 people? 

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe so. 

9 MR. QUINN: I mean, our 727 holds 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn? Do me a 

11 favor and move that microphone closer to you. 

12 MR. QUINN: Yes, I'm sorry. 

13 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. 

14 MR. QUINN: Isn't it true that Asia 

15 Pacific's certificate was moved to the Honolulu 

16 office, I think, in '09? 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 objection. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

MR. QUINN: It has to do with the --

JUDGE GOODWIN: I overruled the 

You can --

MR. QUINN: Is that correct? 

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1-3 6 

1 THE WITNESS: No, it's not correct, 

2 BY MR. QUINN: 

3 Q When? 

4 A October of 2008. 

5 Q Okay, 2008. And you were assignedas 

6 the POI for Asia Pacific Airlines at that time? 

7 A That's correct. 

8 Q Okay. Was Asia Pacific Airlines your 

9 first Principal Operating Inspector position at a 

10 large aircraft Part 121 carrier? 

11 A No. I was --

12 Q Could you expand on what you --

13 A Sure. 

14 Q -- that experience? 

15 A The process of being assigned to a 

16 specific carrier means that the inspector has to 

17 be qualified. And in this particular situation, 

18 I was qualified as a 121 carrier principal. I 

19 also had oversight previously with a 121 carrier 

20 which was located in Guam. And also down in 

21 Samoa. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

And that carrier was, in Guam? 

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1-37 

1 A That was Freedom Air, and also Samoa 

2 Air in Pago Pago, American Samoa. 

3 Q Operating a twin engine 

4 A Turbo props. 

5 Q -- props, fairly small airplanes? 

6 A Excuse me. They were transport 

7 category aircraft. 

8 Q Sure. How would you describe, in 

9 general, the difficulty or not of operating out 

10 in the Pacific to the small island destinations 

11 that Asia Pacific flies to? 

12 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

14 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the 

15 question again? 

16 MR. QUINN: In general, how would you 

17 describe the difficulty of operations of our kind 

18 out in the Pacific to the little airports that we 

19 operate out of? 

20 THE WITNESS: I would say because of 

21 the international overseas oceanic kind of 

22 operation, I would say the risk would be from 

(202) 234·4433 

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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

'I 

20 

21 

22 

1-38 

medium to high because of the length of the 

flights across the oceanic and into international 

airspace. I would say medium to high as far as 

risk. 

MR. QUINN: And difficult because of 

the different countries and the short runways 

would have a factor in that? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

MR. QUINN: I assume. Okay. Exhibit 

1, what would be your estimate of how long it 

takes to prepare (telephonic interference) this. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Prepare what? 

MR. QUINN: How long it would take a 

crew member to prepare this document. 

MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, asks for 

speculation. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: If you can answer. 

Overruled. 

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You can answer. 

THE WITNESS: I would only have to 

estimate it would probably take no more than 15 

(202) 234-4433 

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1-39 

1 minutes, on the average. 

2 MR. QUINN: Having filled out hundreds 

3 of these, it takes 20 to 25 minutes. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, that would 

5 be testimony. You can testify to that later. 

6 MR. QUINN: Okay. All right, 

7 referring to Exhibit 4, at the top of the page, 

8 can you elaborate on the numbers and the pallets? 

9 In other words, it appears that one pallet shows 

10 an aircraft engine at 10,084 pounds, do you agree 

11 with that? 

12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

13 BY MR. QUINN: 

14 Q And then it shows a second pallet and 

15 it says second aircraft engine, 316 pounds. 

16 A Correct. 

17 Q And so the 10,400 for this particular 

18 document would indicate that that weight was 

19 spread across, was on two different pallets? 

20 A Two separate pallets, these are two 

21 separate pallets, correct. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Right, right. And relating back to 

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1-40 

1 Exhibit 1, we can see that the first pallet 

2 PAG72083 was loaded, is shown in position eight, 

3 and the other pallet is shown in position 12. Do 

4 you agree with that? 

5 A I agree. 

6 Q Okay. And Exhibit 2, I believe you 

7 took this picture, is that correct? 

8 A It's either myself or one of my co9 inspectors. I think it was Vickie. Vickie had 

10 the digital camera that day, so I believe she 

11 took the photo. 

12 Q But it's the only picture of the 

13 actual engine ln question? 

14 A No. I think we took maybe 40 

15 pictures, inside and outside the aircraft. 

16 Q It's the only picture being used as an 

17 exhibit here. 

18 A True. 

19 Q Okay. And I've lost a piece of paper. 

20 And Inspector Kanae, your original Letter of 

21 Investigation was dated April the 7th, 2011, lS 

22 that correct? 

(202) 234·4433 

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1-41 

1 A I don't have it in front of me, but I 

2 believe that would concur because the Letter of 

3 Investigation would have occurred after the 

4 inspection. So I would assume that's probably 

5 correct. 

6 Q Okay. And my records indicate that I 

7 replied to that letter with a letter dated April 

8 the 20th, approximately two weeks later. I wrote 

9 back to you with comments on your Letter of 

10 Investigation. 

11 A I don't recall seeing that LOI reply. 

12 Q Okay. I'm pretty sure that the letter 

13 lS within our documents. Do I have to introduce 

14 that as an exhibit, his letter and mine? 

15 MR. BOBERTZ: That's up to you. 

16 (Pause.) 

17 MR. QUINN: Here's my letter to 

18 Clarence. It's Exhibit H. 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: That was Exhibit H I 

20 think to our declaration. I do have extra copies 

21 of that particular exhibit if you want to use 

22 mine and put them in. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1-42 

1 MR. QUINN: Can we give this one to 

2 Clarence for reference? 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: I've got copies, 

4 actually, with all the attachments. So if you 

5 want to put it in with all the attachments. 

6 MR. QUINN: All right. 

7 MR. BOBERT z: I don' t know if you care 

8 about that or not, but here you go. So if Mr. 

9 Quinn is going to enter this as an exhibit, let's 

10 call it perhaps R-1? 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is this the complaint 

12 with attachments? 

13 MR. BOBERTZ: No, this is a copy of, 

14 Mr. Quinn was just referencing 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Reference the Notice 

16 of Civil Penalty and he also commented on his 

17 reply. You can make it Respondent's Exhibit, or 

18 you can make it Court Exhibit. 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: Well, I think he was 

20 actually asking about, not the Notice of Civil 

21 Penalty but the Letter of Investigation, the LOI 

22 from Inspector Kanae. 

(202) 234·4433 

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1-43 

1 MR. QUINN: Right. Well, you know, he 

2 started with an LOI. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

4 MR. QUINN: I responded with some 

5 basic information on the weights that were 

6 exhibits. 

7 MR. BOBERTZ: And I don't think Mr. 

8 Quinn has extra copies. But I do. I don't have 

9 extra copies of Inspector Kanae' s LOI to Mr. 

10 Quinn, but I do have copies of Mr. Quinn's April 

11 20th, 2011 reply if he would like to offer those 

12 into evidence, that's fine. 

13 MR. QUINN: I have copies of the 

14 attachments if that's necessary. 

15 MR. BOBERTZ: So I don't know what you 

16 want to do about the LOI, Mr. Quinn, because I 

17 don't have the copies of that. 

18 MR. QUINN: We don't need that. 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. But you want 

20 this? And we'll mark it Exhibit R-1? 

21 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 

22 document was marked as Respondent's Exhibit R-1 

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1-44 

1 for identification.) 

2 MR. QUINN: That's fine. 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: So there' s three copies, 

4 one for you, one for Inspector Kanae and one for 

5 Judge Goodwin. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. Okay, the 

7 Court has a copy of a letter with, top of the 

8 letter has Asia Pacific Airlines. It's dated 

9 April 20th, 2011. It's been marked as 

10 Respondent's 1 for identification. So Mr. Quinn, 

11 did you want to ask Mr. Kanae questions on that? 

12 MR. QUINN: I do. 

13 MR. BOBERTZ: Just one moment for, 

14 Your Honor, so the record doesn't get confused. 

15 I had originally marked this as a potential 

16 Exhibit A, so the Page 1 of 9 on the top, I 

17 crossed it out and marked, since it's Mr. Quinn's 

18 exhibit, Respondent's Exhibit, I marked it R-1. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

20 MR. BOBERTZ: But just for the record, 

21 the subsequent pages, Exhibit A- where I was 

22 going to write in the number. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1-45 

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: The Court will change 

2 that to R-1. 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. Thank you, Your 

4 Honor. 

5 MR. QUINN: And Inspector Kanae, if 

6 you would refer to --

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, keep your 

8 voice up because 

9 MR. QUINN: I'm sorry. Inspector 

10 Kanae, if you would please refer to Page 4 of 

11 this exhibit. It's actually Page 5 of this 

12 exhibit. There's a weight circled and it says 

13 dry weight 5,216 pounds. 

14 And in the letter, I state that that 

15 ln fact is the weight of this type of engine that 

16 was shipped. Do you agree with that or not? 

17 THE WITNESS: I do not agree with 

18 that. 

19 BY MR. QUINN: 

20 Q 

21 A 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Not. 

No. 

Could you explain why? 

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1-46 

1 A Yes. What you have here is a generic 

2 weight of a generic engine without fluids within 

3 the system itself, fluids such as oil, fuel, and 

4 also components, fuel control units, et cetera 

5 may not be computed per this generic weight as 

6 listed here. 

7 Q All right. Even though I believe they 

8 state in here that that's the typical shipping 

9 weight of an engine. But you've mentioned 

10 components on this engine? 

11 A That's correct. 

12 Q And you've mentioned oil and fluids. 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q Isn't it normal procedure that fluids 

15 have to be more or less evacuated from an engine 

16 prior to shipping? 

17 A Yes, but not all of it can be because 

18 it gets trapped within the engine itself. 

19 Q Okay. And you have any idea how much 

20 might be trapped? 

21 

22 

A It may vary depending on the 

compartment it is trapped ln. So it may vary. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1-47 

1 Q And with respect to the components, 

2 any idea of how many components might be attached 

3 to an engine? 

4 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance, 

5 Your Honor. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

7 MR. QUINN: I'm sorry? 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. You can 

9 answer. 

10 MR. QUINN: Any idea of, you know, can 

11 you give us a couple of examples? 

12 THE WITNESS: Sure. The fuel control 

13 unit would be attached to the engine, the 

14 accessory case where most of these components are 

15 mounted could be such as the fuel control unit, 

16 the bleed valves 

17 

18 Q 

19 A 

20 Q 

21 A 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

BY MR. QUINN: 

Starters? 

Starters, et cetera, yes. 

Generators, ducting? 

Correct. 

QEC items, maybe? 

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1-48 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q A question, you know, the englne is 

3 covered in this picture. Any attempt to uncover 

4 it to determine what may or may not have been 

5 attached to it? 

6 A No. To answer your question, no. We 

7 didn't uncover it. 

8 Q Okay. The following page, Page 65 

9 relates to the engine stand itself. 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q And it's circled. And I believe the 

12 number is 4,620 pounds. 

13 A Yes, I see that. 

14 Q Do you agree with that number? The 

15 problem with this exhibit is that it's obscured. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: You know we could just 

17 

18 MR. QUINN: And whether that was 

19 delivered or not, I don't know. But there 

20 appears to be some sort of a stamp on this 

21 exhibit that obscures a crucial piece of 

22 information. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1-49 

1 MR. BOBERTZ: I have clear copies, if 

2 you would like them, Mr. Quinn. 

3 MR. QUINN: Can we --

4 MR. BOBERTZ: Certainly. 

5 MR. QUINN: If you have a clean copy. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: The Court's the only 

7 person who really needs the clear copy. So what 

8 you may want to do later is substitute -- I can 

9 barely make out the 4260, the 4020. It just looks 

10 like it's a poor copy. But if you have a better 

11 copy, I'll allow you to substitute that later. 

12 MR. QUINN: It's actually a very 

13 important 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I understand 

15 that. But I'm the only one that really needs the 

16 clear copy. You can, if you've got a clear copy, 

17 then show it to the witness and then give it to 

18 the Court. 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: Do you want just the 

20 engine stand copy? There it is. 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. QUINN: I'm sorry? 

MR. BOBERTZ: Here it is. Do you want 

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1-50 

1 to glve, to drop one to Clarence, too? You know, 

2 this isn't actually a --

3 (Off microphone comment.) 

4 MR. BOBERTZ: It's not because it was 

5 copied more recently. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's sufficient, I 

7 think. 

8 MR. BOBERTZ: And this, the unclear 

9 copy is just a copy of a copy that we got from 

10 you in your response. Just recently, I went on 

11 the website from the unclear copy and made a 

12 clear copy. But you're right, it's not exactly 

13 the same. It's a more recent 

14 MR. QUINN: Should we enter it as a 

15 different exhibit, or can I just 

16 MR. BOBERTZ: It's up to you. 

17 MR. QUINN: Let me let the Judge 

18 decide on this. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: You know what I'm 

20 going to recommend is that we keep R-1 as R-1, 

21 and what Mr. Quinn has just handed me, we'll just 

22 mark that R-2. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1-51 

1 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 

2 document was marked as Respondent's Exhibit R-2 

3 for identification.) 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: And I will note that 

5 it's a clearer copy of what is in Pages 6 of 9 

6 and 7 of 9 of R-1. I assume that's what you're 

7 really --

8 MR. QUINN: That's fine. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that satisfactory, 

10 Mr. Quinn? 

11 MR. QUINN: Yes. That's fine, thank 

12 you. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What the 

14 Court's saying is everyone's having trouble 

15 reading parts of Respondent's 1 for 

16 identification. 

17 What Mr. Quinn has just handed the 

18 Court is going to be marked as Respondent's 2 for 

19 identification, which in fact is a replication of 

2 0 Page 6 of 9 and 7 of 9 of Respondent's 1, but 

21 it's more readable, and it has to do with the 

22 fact that we've got copies of copies. 

(2D2) 234-4433 

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1 So R-2 for identification for the 

2 record is actually Pages 6 of 9 and 7 of 9 of R3 1, it's just that it's a clearer copy. 

4 MR. QUINN: Okay. Inspector Kanae, on 

5 Page 2 of what I just gave you, it's highlighted 

6 total weight, the same 4,620 pounds. 

7 THE WITNESS: I see that. 

8 BY MR. QUINN: 

9 Q Would you please read the two numbers, 

10 the information to the left under dimensions, 

11 what it says there? 

12 A Under dimensions it says inches. And 

13 under that column, you mean? Under the 

14 dimensions column? 

15 Q Yes. 

16 A It says casters up with the actual 

17 dimensions, casters down with dimensions. 

18 Q And what are the casters? 

19 A These are metal wheels that are 

20 attached to the frame of the engine stand. 

21 Q And there are four of them attached to 

22 the stand, typically? 

(202) 234-4433 

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1-53 

1 A Typically. 

2 Q One on each corner? But only two 

3 visible in the picture? 

4 A Yes, that's correct. 

5 Q Okay. Would you agree 

6 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, again. I'm 

7 sorry, Your Honor. Objection, relevance. We 

8 haven't actually admitted this document, yet 

9 we're having testimony about it. I'm not sure, I 

10 don't believe this document is relevant to this 

11 case. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

13 MR. QUINN: My next question is the 

14 total weight, as I read this document, of 4,620 

15 pounds clearly includes the casters on the stand, 

16 do you agree or disagree with that? 

17 THE WITNESS: Again too, this is a 

18 generic weight. And we don't know for sure if 

19 the casters are the actual casters that were 

20 mounted on this particular stand. So what I'm 

21 saying is this, again too, is a generic weight 

22 that was produced. 

(202) 234·4433 

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1-54 

1 BY MR. QUINN: 

2 Q So to your knowledge, are there 

3 different casters that can be put on a stand of 

4 this kind? 

5 A It's possible, it's possible. 

6 Q Possible, but you don't know? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q And to your knowledge, this engine or 

9 this stand, separately or together, was never 

10 weighed in Guam, nor was it weighed in Honolulu, 

11 is that correct? 

12 A 

13 ln Guam. 

14 Q 

15 A 

16 Q 

17 A 

18 Q 

19 A 

20 Q 

21 correct? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

No, it's not correct. It was weighed 

It was? 

Yes. 

By who? 

Continental Airlines. 

And has that been introduced anywhere? 

Yes. Exhibit A-3. 

Three. Exhibit A-3 lS an airway bill, 

Correct. 

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1 Q Is it, you know, pretty standard 

2 practice for those numbers on airway bills to be 

3 incorrect? 

4 A Not necessarily becauseyou can see a 

5 stamp certified. 

6 Q All right. 

7 A And delivery authorized. 

8 Q I'll probably save this question for 

9 Ms. Flores, but at the time this englne was 

10 shipped, there was no scale in Guam capable of 

11 weighing anything over 10,000 pounds. And so 

12 this engine was not weighed. 

13 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's testimony, Mr. 

15 Quinn. 

16 MR. QUINN: Fine. I'll make testimony 

17 later. Let's see. The next question that I 

18 have, Inspector, is that after April the 20th, 

19 after my letter to you, I did not hear anything 

20 from the FAA until receiving a letter from Mr. 

21 Bobertz nearly six months later. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

Do you recall when or why you 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1-56 

1 submitted this to the legal authority and whether 

2 this was reviewed by anyone else at your office? 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's not really 

5 relevant, Mr. Quinn. 

6 MR. QUINN: Well, it goes to the FAA's 

7 own procedures for filing, you know, doing things 

8 on a timely basis because of the delay and 

9 getting a response. We weren't able to verify 

10 some of the facts in this case. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: I think you can 

12 present that as part of your testimony and 

13 argument at the end in mitigation. I'm not sure 

14 at this point how relevant it is. 

15 MR. QUINN: Okay. Then the question 

16 is was anybody in your office involved in 

17 reviewing this before it went from you to Mr. 

18 Bobertz, I assume. 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled, I'll allow 

21 that limited inquiry. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

THE WITNESS: Sure. 

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1 MR. QUINN: It was. 

2 THE WITNESS: The process for 

3 enforcement per our FAA order requires that we 

4 gather investigative data. We then put together 

5 an enforcement package. It is then reviewed not 

6 only by myself, but also reviewed by my 

7 management personnel before it 1 s forwarded to the 

8 region for legal counsel to review. 

9 In my LOI, if I may mention, I stated 

10 that I request ten days for a reply. If there is 

ll no reply, then the enforcement will be forwarded 

12 all the way up to our region legal office, 

13 basically. 

14 BY MR. QUINN: 

15 Q So are you telling me that it was 

16 forwarded to legal before you got my letter dated 

17 April 20? 

18 A I did not receive your letter, Mr. 

19 Quinn. 

20 Q Really? 

21 A I didn 1 t see your letter. I don 1 t 

22 remember revealing your letter. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 Q Okay. So just maybe this is 

2 repetitive, but you decided not to weigh the 

3 engine here in Honolulu after it arrived? 

4 A That's correct. 

5 Q Okay. I don't have any further 

6 questions. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect? 

8 MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm going to ask 

10 you -- you can step down. I'm going to instruct 

11 you not to discuss your testimcny with anybody 

12 prior to the conclusion of the hearing. You can 

13 step down. You can leave those. It'll give 

14 something for Mr. Bobertz to do. 

15 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, we'll be 

16 using them again. I'm sorry if you're waiting 

17 for me, Your Honor. But if you are, may I call 

18 my next witness? 

19 

20 

21 

22 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. Let's do this, 

let's take a quick five minute break. I've got 

17 of. Let's be back here at quarter of and go 

on the record. And when we return, if you'll 

(202) 234·4433 

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1-59 

1 have your witness standing up by the witness box, 

2 we'll proceed. 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: We're going to go off 

5 the record for a minute. 

6 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

7 went off the record at 1:40 p.m. and resumed at 

8 1:46 p.m.) 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and raise your 

10 right hand. 

11 WHEREUPON, 

12 CATHERINE R. FLORES 

13 was called as a witness by Counsel for the 

14 Administrator and, having been first duly sworn, 

15 assumed the witness stand, was examined and 

16 testified as follows: 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

18 State your full name for the record and spell 

19 your first and last name, please. 

20 THE WITNESS: Catherine R. Flores. 

21 That's C-A-T-H-E-R-I-N-E, middle initial R, F-L22 0-R-E-S. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

2 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

4 Now Ms. Flores, can you tell me where you're 

5 employed? 

6 THE WITNESS: United Airlines. 

7 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

8 Q And how long have you been employed 

9 there? 

10 A About 17 years. 

11 Q Can you tell me your position? 

12 A I'm the warehouse supervisor. 

13 Q Thank you. So can you briefly 

14 describe your job duties, what does it mean to be 

15 a warehouse supervisor there? 

16 A Of the 17 years I 've been employed 

17 with United, I was the supervisor for 7 years. I 

18 oversee 17 store keepers. They're responsible 

19 for about $22 million worth of aircraft parts. 

20 They handle the shipping, receiving, 

21 maintaining the inventory of those aircraft 

22 parts, and we also handle about $1 million worth 

(202) 234·4433 

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1 of catering equipment. 

2 Q Thank you. And you mentioned you're 

3 employed by United. Was it previously 

4 Continental before the buy-out? 

5 A Continental Micronesia, yes. 

6 Q Okay. And when was that? Do you 

7 recall about? 

8 A It was up until 2012 we merged with 

9 United. 

10 Q Okay. So before that, you were with 

11 Continental? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q What did you call it, Continental 

14 A Continental Micronesia. 

15 Q Okay, thank you. Your Honor, may I 

16 approach? 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

18 MR. BOBERTZ: Did I collect the 

19 exhibits from you, Clarence, up there? 

20 MR. KANAE: I'm sorry? 

21 MR. BOBERTZ: Oh, I did. 

22 one moment please, Your Honor. 

(202) 234-4433 

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WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 

I'm sorry, 

(202) 234-4433 
1-62 

1 Ms. Flores, I'm going to hand you 

2 what's been marked, and actually accepted into 

3 evidence as Exhibits A-2, A-3, A-5, and A-6. 

4 I'm going to give you just a minute to 

5 take a look at those documents, Ms. Flores. So 

6 looking at documents A-3, A-5, and A-6, Aviation 

7 Safety Inspector Kanae gave some testimony 

8 regarding them. 

9 But you worked at Continental at the 

10 time, so I would like to go over in a little bit 

11 more detail with those documents with you. Let's 

12 start in with A-3. What can you tell me about 

13 the information on that document? 

14 THE WITNESS: Pretty much what 

15 Inspector Kanae mentioned. It's showing that 

16 we're shipping out 737 aircraft engine, total of 

17 three pieces weighing 10,400 pounds from Guam to 

18 Honolulu. Well, the final destination's Los 

19 Angeles, but it terminates in Honolulu. 

20 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

21 Q 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Okay. And then Exhibits A-5 and A-6? 

A-5 and A-6 looks like the shipment 

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1 was broken down into two pallets. Two of the 

2 three pieces is on A-5. If you look at the first 

3 item there, that's two pieces at 316 pounds. And 

4 then on A-6, it's the remaining piece at 10,084 

5 pounds. 

6 Q And when you say the remaining piece, 

7 are you referring to the engine? 

8 A The engine. 

9 Q Okay. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: What do you look --

11 let's go back to A-5. What's the identifier 

12 you're looking at, is that the pallet 722217? 

13 THE WITNESS: Yes. But if you look at 

14 complete airway bill number, you see the 0695 

15 0075? 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

17 THE WITNESS: That's two pieces at 

18 316. That would match what's on Exhibit A-3. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: So two pieces at 316 

2 0 pounds? 

21 THE WITNESS: Yes. Two out of the 

22 three pieces were placed on this pallet position. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: And then one piece at 

2 161 pounds? 

3 THE WITNESS: The 161 pounds is for a 

4 different shipment. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is for which shipment? 

6 THE WITNESS: It's a different, it has 

7 nothing to do with this. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

9 THE WITNESS: It's a different airway 

10 bill. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

12 MR. BOBERTZ: But was it happened to 

13 be placed on the same pallet? 

14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now, I'm doing 

16 this so that I last thing either one of you 

17 wants to do is confuse the Court. You'll never 

18 know what you're going to end up with. 

19 All right, A- 3 in the top extreme 

20 right hand corner, Ms. Flores, shows an airway 

21 bill of 0695 0075. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now if we go 

2 back to ExhibitA-5, that's the first handwritten 

3 1 ine. 

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: So what you're saying 

6 is that airway bill has two pieces, 316 pounds 

7 each or a total? 

8 THE WITNESS: A total of 316 pounds. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. And the special 

10 code of the -- that means it's going to LAX? 

11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now I think I 

13 understand so far. Go ahead, Mr. Bobertz. 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay, so Ms. Flores, can 

15 you do the same, run through the same explanation 

16 you just did for Exhibit A-5 with Exhibit A-6 and 

17 show where you're getting, how that Exhibit A-6 

18 corresponds back to Exhibit A-3? 

19 THE WITNESS: So it's there, the 

20 airway bill number 0695 0075. It's one of three 

21 pieces at 10,084 pounds. So that is the 

22 remaining balance from A-5. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

2 Q Okay. So A-5 I showed from that airway 

3 bill number 316 pounds and A-6 showed 10,084 

4 pounds for the other piece? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Okay. And if you add those up? 

7 A 10,400 pounds. 

8 Q Okay. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: 10,542 pounds? 

10 THE WITNESS: 10,400. Just the 316 

11 and the 10,084. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh okay. 

13 THE WITNESS: That second line item on 

14 Exhibit A-5 doesn't pertain to this shipment. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, okay. 

16 MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sorry, I know it's 

17 confusing. Maybe between the three exhibits, Ms. 

18 Flores, you could run through it one more time 

19 between the three pieces shown on the airway bill 

20 of 10,400 and how that's broken down into the 

21 components on the unit load device sheets, and 

22 then what the total engine shipment weight is? 

(202) 234·4433 

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1 THE WITNESS: Okay. So on Exhibit A-3 

2 there's a total of three pieces at 10,400 pounds. 

3 Two of the three pieces is on Exhibit A-5 at 316 

4 pounds. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Total? 

6 THE WITNESS: Total. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

8 THE WITNESS: And then the remaining 

9 piece is on Exhibit A-6 at 10,084 pounds. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Now how do I know by 

11 looking at these that these three pieces are on 

12 the same pallet? 

13 THE WITNESS: It's not on the same 

14 pallet. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

16 THE WITNESS: It's broken down on the 

17 container number. If you look at the one that's 

18 highlighted, PAG72217 and then PAG72083. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Exhibit A-5 has 

20 the 217 and A-6 has the 083. Those are two 

:1_' - - l -, 

22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

======o==========""--==-=cc-·""·· c=··-"0"'····?§· ~~~==?§?§~~""fNEEJl.AI;E"fRc,~·GriK'(!JS:ISS:SS"". ~~~"§""'~~~=~~~~~= 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: So what you're saying 

2 is that on pallet 72083 shown on Exhibit 6, the 

3 total weight was 10,084? 

4 THE WITNESS: The total weight is 

5 10,542 because they added, the 10,084 is just the 

6 weight of the engine and the engine stand. The 

7 458 pounds, that's the total weight for the 

8 pallet and straps that they used to secure the 

9 engine stand. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, so the 10,084 is 

11 just the engine? 

12 THE WITNESS: The 10,084 is just the 

13 engine. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: And you've got 415 

15 pounds of pallets and straps and --

16 THE WITNESS: 458 pounds. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, okay. I think 

18 I understand it now. 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. So just one more 

20 time --

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just so you know, this 

22 has absolutely nothing to do with anything, but 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 my wife and I just flew space available on a C-17 

2 from Travis to Yokota. And I'm still trying to 

3 figure out how they knew that the plane wouldn't 

4 just go nose up at the end of the runway. 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: So Ms. Flores, one more 

6 time, the final weight of the engine as shipped 

7 was what? 

8 THE WITNESS: Showing 10,542. 

9 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

10 Q Okay. And were these, and how do you 

11 know these are the correct weights? 

12 A Well, cargo, we don't have in our 

13 facility, stores warehouse, we don't have a scale 

14 to weigh the engine. So we bring the engine to 

15 cargo and they're supposed to weigh it for us. 

16 And I did verify with them, and everything that 

17 comes in, especially something bulky, they re18 weigh. 

19 Q And when you say cargo, who do you --

20 specifically who are you referring to? 

21 A 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Our cargo office. 

Your as in Continental or now United? 

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1 A At that time it was Continental. But 

2 since we merged, they've been contracted out to 

3 an outside vendor. 

4 Q Okay. So I notice on Exhibit A- 3, 

5 most of the information is typed in. But the 

6 10,400 pounds looks like it's handwritten in. Do 

7 you know why that would be? 

8 A That was because we didn't have the 

9 scale to weigh the engine, so we weren't able to 

10 put a weight there. 

11 Q Okay. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Now at the time that 

13 this occurred, where were you? Were you at Guam 

14 or Honolulu or 

15 THE WITNESS: I'm stationed in Guam. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: You're stationed in 

17 Guam? 

18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So when you say 

2 0 we didn't have a scale, you're talking about 

21 being in Guam? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

THE WITNESS: Our stores facility 

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1 where I work, the department I work in. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: In Guam? 

3 THE WITNESS: In Guam doesn't have a 

4 scale. Our cargo facility has a scale. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

6 MR. BOBERTZ: And where is your cargo 

7 facility? 

8 THE WITNESS: It's located about maybe 

9 a ten minute drive from where we're located. 

10 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

11 Q Okay. 

12 A So it's not right near our facility. 

13 Q Okay. Do you have a scale now at your 

14 warehouse? 

15 A Yes, thanks to this engine shipment we 

16 had a scale installed at our facility. 

17 Q And can you explain that, elaborate on 

18 it? You said thanks to this engine shipment. 

19 A Well, our normal practice before was 

20 we would fill out the documents, drop it off to 

21 our cargo office and they would handle it. I 

22 guess because of this incident, cargo refused to 

(202) 234.4433 

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1 accept any shipment, engine shipment from us 

2 unless we broke down the weight. 

3 So they didn't want to weigh the 

4 engine for us. So if we wanted the weight, we 

5 would have to go down to cargo and weigh it 

6 ourselves before we are able to submit it for 

7 shipping. So we had to break down the weights 

8 because of this incident. 

9 Q So now the Guam warehouse folks got 

10 their own scale to be able to do this? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q Thank you. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: And when you say break 

14 down the weight, that means you have an engine 

15 and then you have straps? 

16 THE WITNESS: Well whatever we give to 

17 cargo, so we would give them the engine on the 

18 stand. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

20 THE WITNESS: We would weigh that 

21 because normally, on Exhibit A-3 if you notice 

22 it's the total weight of the three piece 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 shipment. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

3 THE WITNESS: That's how they would 

4 normally accept a shipment from us. But now they 

5 want us to break down the three pieces, what each 

6 piece actually weighs so it shows that it's less 

7 than 10,000 pounds. 

8 MR. BOBERTZ: And can you take a look 

9 at Exhibit A-2? And so how did you have occasion 

10 to, besides today, review these documents 

11 recently? 

12 THE WITNESS: You sent them to me. 

13 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

14 Q And what did I ask you to look at? 

15 A You wanted me to verify the weight of 

16 the engine to make sure that it didn't exceed 

17 10,000 pounds. 

18 Q And what was your first thought? 

19 A That there was no way that an engine 

20 that we shipped out of Guam weighed over 10,000 

21 pounds. 

22 Q 

(202) 234~4433 

And what changed your mind? 

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1 A Looking at this picture, the casters 

2 were still installed. 

3 Q And when you say this picture, what 

4 picture is that? 

5 A Exhibit A-2. 

6 Q How much do the casters weigh? 

7 A Roughly about 680 pounds for all four. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that 640 each or 

9 total? 

10 THE WITNESS: 680 pounds total for all 

11 four. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

13 THE WITNESS: About 170 pounds. 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: Per caster? 

15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

16 MR. BOBERTZ: So you still ship 

17 engines, right? 

18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: So if this isn't a 

20 typical shipment and it weighs over 10,000 

21 pounds, how do you ship engines? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

THE WITNESS: We remove the casters. 

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1 And I know that for a fact because right after 

2 this shipment, we had another engine that needed 

3 to go out. 

4 And I made sure that I was there to 

5 see them weigh the engine. And the total weight, 

6 minus everything that's showing on Exhibit A- 2 --

7 minus well there's minus four casters, I can 

8 only see two, weighed a total of 9,812 pounds. 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: Since we've talked about 

10 it, let's go ahead and put that one in. I'm 

11 sorry, we were at A-8 so the next one would be A12 9, is that correct? I could verify that too as 

13 soon as I find my A-7, A-8, yes. So, Your Honor, 

14 may I approach? 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

16 MR. BOBERTZ: I have what's been 

17 marked for identification purposes as 

18 Administrator's Exhibit A-9. 

19 (Whereupon, the above-referenced 

2 0 document was marked as Administrator's Exhibit A21 9 for identification.) 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. BOBERTZ: Ms. Flores, do you 

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1 recognize that document that I've just handed you 

2 marked for identification as Administrator's A-9? 

3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

4 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

5 Q And what is it? 

6 A It was the picture of an engine that 

7 we weighed. And it has the breakdown of -- well 

8 it includes the pallet, the straps, and the three 

9 spreader boards for a total weight of 9, 812 

10 pounds. 

11 Q And I think you said you weighed that 

12 shortly after the shipment in this case? 

13 A 

14 Q 

15 A 

16 time frame 

17 Q 

18 with dates 

19 A 

20 Q 

21 A 

22 Q 

(202) 234·4433 

Yes. 

Do you recall about when that was? 

I believe it was about April or May 

-- May. 

Okay. Of, I'm sorry I'm really bad 

2013. 

Or 

Or 2011, I'm sorry. 2011. 

Yes right, okay. And tell me again 

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1 why this was done. 

2 A Well our -- Rose Onedera, she's our 

3 cargo sales manager, she's the person that we 

4 deal with whenever we have an engine movement. 

5 And we had an engine that needed to go out and 

6 she refused to accept the shipment until we got 

7 our weight straightened out. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Would you spell the 

9 last name of the lady you referred to? 

10 THE WITNESS: Onedera, 0-N-E-D-E-R-A. 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: And Ms. Flores, I notice 

12 that-- so I'm sorry, you started to describe and 

13 I may have interrupted you the components on this 

14 and what you weighed. Can you go through that 

15 with us, please? 

16 THE WITNESS: It's the engine with the 

17 engine stand, three spreader boards, a pallet, 

18 and ten straps, or a cookie sheet. 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: And is that how you 

20 typically ship an engine? 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

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1 Q This engine? So why is this one 9,812 

2 pounds where the engine that shipped in the case 

3 we've been discussing is 10,542 pounds? 

4 A I can only assume because we removed 

5 the casters because that's the big difference 

6 between the two pictures is that the casters are 

7 on Exhibit A-2 and it's removed on Exhibit A-9. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Again, how much does 

9 a caster weigh? 

10 THE WITNESS: About, roughly 680 

11 pounds. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's all four? 

13 THE WITNESS: All four. So 170, I'm 

14 sorry. 

15 MR. BOBERTZ: And Ms. Flores, how did 

16 you feel about coming to testify today? 

17 THE WITNESS: I was kind of reluctant. 

18 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

19 Q And why is that? 

20 A Well, we have a really good 

21 relationship with APA, Asia Pacific Airlines and 

22 I just didn't want to sever that relationship. 

(202) 234·4433 

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1 Q And did you feel that by testifying 

2 today against them in this case might impact that 

3 relationship? 

4 A Well, yes I felt like that. I mean, 

5 I don't know if it will happen, but that's just 

6 the way I felt. 

7 Q So you were reluctant to testify? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Flores. No 

10 further questions from me, but I'm sure --

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, do you have 

12 any questions? 

13 MR. QUINN: Yes sir, Judge. May I ask 

14 because some of my questions are going to be 

15 based on my testimony and I'm not sure if I'm 

16 going to be able to testify and then ask 

17 questions of a witness afterwards? I'm kind of 

18 stuck. 

19 

20 case. 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE GOODWIN: This is the FAA's 

MR. QUINN: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So it's 

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they're 

(202) 234-4433 
1-80 

1 presenting evidence. You can ask questions based 

2 on the testimony that's been presented. You can 

3 always ask a question based on what you think you 

4 may say, but the old admonition that we learned 

5 in law school lS you never ask a question you 

6 don't know the answer to. 

7 MR, QUINN: All right. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: At least that's what 

9 they taught us in law school. 

10 MR. QUINN: Okay, thank you. And 

11 thank you for coming. 

12 CROSS EXAMINATION 

13 MR. QUINN: I understand, I think I 

14 heard you say you've been with Continental and 

15 United for 20 years? 

16 THE WITNESS: About 17. 

17 BY MR. QUINN: 

18 Q Seventeen? 

19 A Seventeen years, yes. 

20 Q And all of that's been in Guam? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q And so you've actually preceded when 

(202) 234A433 

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1 Asia Pacific started business in Guam? 

2 A Mm-hmm. 

3 Q Do you have an A and P license? 

4 A No, sir. 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

7 MR. QUINN: Have you ever worked 

8 specifically in an engine shop at the airline? 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

11 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 

12 MR. QUINN: But you do, and you are 

13 aware that engines come in lots of different 

14 forms? And when I say that, you have a bare 

15 engine, you have an engine with a fuel control, 

16 an engine with a generator. Inspector Kanae 

17 testified to some of the equipment that can be on 

18 an engine or not on an engine. 

19 THE WITNESS: I do know that now. Just 

20 based on today, yes. 

21 BY MR. QUINN: 

22 Q Okay. But you don't have any specific 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 notion of how much those things individually 

2 weigh or whether or not they were on this 

3 particular engine or not? 

4 A No. 

5 Q Okay. To your knowledge, at the time 

6 that this incident occurred, you had a scale, or 

7 Continental did have a scale in Guam? 

8 A There's a scale in our cargo facility, 

9 yes. 

10 Q Right. Are you aware of the maximum 

11 weight of that scale? 

12 A No, I'm not. I'm sorry. 

13 Q But they got a new scale afterwards, 

14 a different scale. I think you --

15 A Our warehouse. 

16 Q Your warehouse does? 

17 A I'm not too sure what cargo has, but 

18 our stores warehouse, we have a scale. 

19 Q Okay. Are you able to tell us with 

20 certainty whether or not this engine as loaded on 

21 the pallet was or was not weighed prior to your 

22 tendering it to Asia Pacific? 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 A I was told by our cargo facility that 

2 they weigh everything, and every bulky i terns. 

3 But this was weighed at cargo. I'm not too sure 

4 who weighed it so I can't answer. 

5 Q To your knowledge, have you ever 

6 weighed one of these engine stands separately 

7 just to see what it weighs? 

8 A No. We only have, we're limited 

9 with we only have one engine that we 

10 warehouse. So for us to weigh the engine stand 

11 separately, we would have to remove the engine 

12 from the stand to do that. 

13 Q Correct me if I'm wrong, but I mean, 

14 it would be a fairly simple thing to take an 

15 engine stand and weigh it. But it would be 

16 extremely difficult to weigh an engine by itself. 

17 A Well, the engine 

18 Q to be able to lay the englne 

19 A We would have to remove the engine 

20 from the engine stand because we always have it 

21 on the stand. 

22 Q And then how would you weigh it? 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 A For if we were to weigh it separately? 

2 Q Yes. 

3 A You would have to do that. You would 

4 have to remove the engine from the stand. 

5 Q And you would lay the engine down on 

6 the ground? 

7 A We've never done that. 

8 Q Never. That's because that wouldn't 

9 be legal? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q Okay. 

12 A We've never done that. So that's why 

13 I --

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me ask this 

15 because maybe this is where you're going, Mr. 

16 Quinn. You're in a cargo warehouse? 

17 THE WITNESS: No. I'm in a stores 

18 warehouse. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, you're in a 

20 storage warehouse which stores aircraft parts? 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN : Do you have, at the 

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1 time of this incident, engine stands in your 

2 facility? 

3 THE WITNESS: No. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Have you had since 

5 then? 

6 THE WITNESS: Every engine stand we 

7 have we only have one engine, one engine 

8 stand. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: In your perspective, 

10 all of your stands come with engines attached? 

11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: So you wouldn't, I 

13 mean, you would have to make a special effort to 

14 go someplace and get a stand and weigh it? 

15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: And it may not be the 

17 stand that was attached to a particular engine? 

18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: If I didn't get to the 

20 point you were trying to make, Mr. Quinn, you're 

21 welcome to 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. QUINN: Well, the basic point is 

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1 that they have no idea what the engine actually 

2 weighed or what was on it. They didn't keep a 

3 record of that. 

4 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: But I think her 

6 testimony is that if this is the point you were 

7 trying to make, they have never since this 

8 incident or after had a stand that they could 

9 weigh just to weigh a stand. They all happen to 

10 come with engines attached. 

11 MR. QUINN: Until they take the engine 

12 off, and then they have a stand. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, which they can't 

14 do because, as you said, it's illegal, so 

15 MR. QUINN: Well no, no, no. They 

16 take the engine off the stand and hang it on the 

17 airplane. That's a process. They lift it off 

18 

19 heard. 

20 

21 ground. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE GOODWIN: That's not what I've 

MR. QUINN: -- to set it down on the 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well I understand, but 

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1 I think her testimony is all of her engines come 

2 with stands attached because they're just a 

3 storage facility. So whatever happens after the 

4 engine leaves her storage facility --

5 THE WITNESS: We're only allocated one 

6 engine for our station. So we only have one 

7 englne that we keep in stock. If maintenance 

8 needs to do an engine change, we deliver the 

9 engine to maintenance with the stand, they remove 

10 the old engine, the unserviceable engine, and 

11 they place it right back on the stand for us. 

12 MR. QUINN: In the last 15 years, do 

13 you have any rough estimate of how many engines 

14 of this type that Asia Pacific has carried on 

15 behalf of Continental/United? 

16 THE WITNESS: Pretty much every engine 

17 that we had Asia Pacific has handled. As far as 

18 the numbers, I don't have. 

19 

20 Q 

21 too many? 

22 A 

(202) 234·4433 

BY MR. QUINN: 

If I said two a year, would that be 

It all depends. Like, this year we 

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1 had two engines that we sent out. We had one 

2 engine that we moved out. In 2011 we had two 

3 engines. This year we moved about one. 

4 Q Numerous engines? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Over the years? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q You've carried? 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q I've carried some --

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Make sure you stay 

12 close to the mic. The court reporter's having 

13 trouble. 

14 MR. QUINN: I'm sorry. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: I can assure you, Mr. 

16 Quinn, I've tried a number of cases where I was 

17 admonished by the court reporter to move back to 

18 the mic. 

19 MR. QUINN: That's okay. So just to 

2 0 repeat, you know, you can say with some certainty 

21 that we've carried a multitude of engines, both 

22 before this one and after? 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

2 MR. QUINN: Okay. Judge, I'm sorry 

3 but I think the rest of my questions for 

4 Catherine, Ms. Flores would have to come after I 

5 talk about the process of how we, you know, how 

6 Continental tenders an engine to Asia Pacific and 

7 how we respond to that and all of the people that 

8 are involved in filling out the paperwork and 

9 dealing with it in that period of time. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: You can ask her 

11 questions now. You don't --

12 MR. QUINN: Okay. Who would be the 

13 first person at Asia Pacific that would be 

14 contacted when Continental would have an engine, 

15 and who would make that contact? Would it be 

16 Rose? 

17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

18 BY MR. QUINN: 

19 Q I don't know how to pronounce Rose's 

20 last name. 

21 A Onedera. We contact Rose and Rose 

22 handles that portion for us. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 Q Okay. And typically she wouldsay to 

2 probably Mr. Walker, Asia Pacific's general 

3 manager, that you've got an engine that you would 

4 like to have on our flight leaving for Honolulu? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q And how would that engine and 

7 paperwork arrive? 

8 A It would come from our facility. 

9 Q On the north side of the field? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q Or on the east side of the field? 

12 A On the east side. 

13 Q What? 

14 A On the east side. 

15 Q Right. So it comes across the 

16 airport. Does the paperwork, the airway bill and 

17 all these manifests and all that stuff come with 

18 the engine? 

19 A Not the manifest. From our warehouse 

20 facility, we furnish the shipping documents and 

21 commercial invoice and any other paperwork 

22 attached to the shipment. We give that to cargo, 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 and then cargo handles it from there. 

2 Q Have there been times over the years 

3 when, and I don't know if this one applies, but 

4 when you're in a hurry to get an engine out? 

5 A To get it out, to be honest with you, 

6 ln 2011 during that time we had a group of 

7 coordinators that handle engine movement. But we 

8 do always set priority for engines to go out 

9 because the faster it gets to the repair vendor, 

10 the faster it gets back in service for us to 

11 utilize. 

12 Q Okay. Let me refer --

13 A But these are unserviceable engines. 

14 I'm sorry, these are unserviceable engines going 

15 out of Guam. 

16 Q Okay. Let me refer to Exhibit 3, the 

17 airway bill. Is it your group that fills this 

18 out? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q Both the typing and the written part? 

21 A The typing part I know for sure. As 

22 far as the written, it's been so long ago. I 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 don't know how that was handled. 

2 Q Okay. Would it be correct to say that 

3 somebody, again I'm not sure if it's in your 

4 group over there or not. I suspect it's in your 

5 group. The maintenance department calls your 

6 group and says, you know, we've got an engine 

7 that we need shipped back to Honolulu. Can you 

8 prepare the documents for it? 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q And you have a folder with information 

11 in it about engine weights and the skid weights 

12 and the net weights and so forth and so on, so 

13 they compile one of these? 

14 A There's a template that they have. 

15 Q Now, would you say that Asia Pacific 

16 Airlines is aware of the 10,000 pound limit on 

17 our airplane? Were you aware of it? 

18 A No, I wasn't aware of it. 

19 Q Would you say that any of your staff 

20 that might have been working on this would have 

21 been aware of it? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Our staff is not familiar with Asia 

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1 Pacific's restrictions on the aircraft. We 

2 provide just the shipping documents and the items 

3 to be shipped, and we tender it to cargo. But we 

4 weren't aware until after this shipment of the 

5 10,000 pound limitation. 

6 Q I don't know if, again if it applies 

7 to this specific one, but to your knowledge, has 

8 Asia Pacific ever come back to you and said hey 

9 wait a minute, that's too heavy, we need to get 

10 some weight off the engine? 

11 A The only time I recall is after this 

12 particular shipment because that's the reason why 

13 I weighed this engine and afterwards. 

14 Q Then yes for this shipment, somebody 

15 contacted Continental and said, you know, this is 

16 too heavy for us, we need to get some weight off 

17 it? 

18 A I would assume because we got the 

19 information from Rose. So yes. 

20 Q Right, okay. And would it be logical 

21 to assume that the 316 pounds that is shown on 

22 Exhibit 4 as being on pallet PAG 72217CO. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 A I don't have Exhibit 4. 

2 Q Would it be safe to assume that that 

3 was something that was removed from the engine 

4 and put onto a different pallet? 

5 A I'm sorry, I don't have that with me. 

6 Q You don't have Exhibit 4? 

7 A No. 

8 Q Oh. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's an Asia Pacific 

10 Airlines Cargo, at the top it shows cargo 

11 manifest. 

12 THE WITNESS: I only have A-3, 5, 6. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

14 THE WITNESS: Okay, I'm sorry. Could 

15 you repeat? Could you repeat your --

16 MR. QUINN: What? 

17 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat your 

18 question? 

19 BY MR. QUINN: 

20 Q Yes. The manifest shows two pallets. 

21 They're both labeled aircraft engines, pallet 1, 

22 pallet 2. That's parts, I guess. And on the one 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 pallet it shows 10,084 pounds, and on the other 

2 pallet it shows 316 pounds. 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Per engine? 

5 A Mm-hmm. 

6 Q Okay, which came at 316 pounds is 

7 subtracted from the overall 10,400 pounds? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Does that sound about right to you? 

10 A Based on the documents, yes. 

11 Q Okay. Would you characterize the 

12 ability of Asia Pacific to carry your engines to 

13 be a rather significant thing for your airline? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q to carry them not only back to 

16 Honolulu but to Okinawa and other places where 

17 they've had to be changed? 

18 A Yes. 

19 MR. QUINN: Judge, will I have a 

20 chance to ask her some questions after I give my 

21 testimony? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, she's here now. 

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1 I don't know what your schedule is. 

2 MR. QUINN: Okay. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: You're free to ask 

4 questions even -- I think 

5 MR. QUINN: I've been told by people 

6 at your airline that the scale in the cargo 

7 warehouse, ·at the time this engine was shipped, 

8 could not have weighed this engine because at 

9 that weight of over 10,000 pounds, it was not 

10 certified to that weight. 

11 THE WITNESS: I honestly can't answer 

12 that because that is not the area I work in. 

13 BY MR. QUINN: 

14 Q Right. 

15 A So I can't say if it's true or not. 

16 Q And can you be a little bit more 

17 specific about why you think that the engine and 

18 the stand actually was weighed, either separately 

19 or together, or do you think it was not weighed? 

20 A Well, the engine and the stand were 

21 weighed together because that's how we provided 

22 it to cargo. 

(202) 234·4433 

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1 Q Well, I'm sorry, but you're not in the 

2 area where the scale is, right? You're on the 

3 east side of the field --

4 A Yes. 

5 Q -- and the scale's in the west side of 

6 the field ln the cargo facility? 

7 A The engine and the stand are delivered 

8 to cargo in one piece. 

9 Q Correct. And they weighed it? You 

10 believe 

11 A I'm saying I'm not too sure if they've 

12 actually weighed it. That's their process to 

13 weigh it. I can't say they did or didn't. But 

14 it is their process to weigh, re-weigh any bulky 

15 items, and if there wasn't a weight. 

16 Q Okay. Well, we'll come back to that 

17 later on, I guess. Let me think here. It is 

18 possible, in your view, that an airway bill could 

19 represent multiple pieces that would be loaded on 

20 different pallets? 

21 A 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Yes. 

Okay, so the fact that the Exhibit 3 

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1 says 10,400 pounds doesn't mean that that 10,400 

2 pounds was loaded on to one pallet? 

3 A No. In Exhibit A-5 and A-6, it shows 

4 that it was separated. 

5 Q Right, okay. I don't think I have any 

6 other questions. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, redirect? 

8 MR. BOBERTZ: Just briefly. 

9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

10 MR. BOBERTZ: Ms. Flores, do you 

11 recall who you talked to, I think you said in 

12 Continental Cargo, about this engine and it being 

13 weighed? 

14 THE WITNESS: It was Val. 

15 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

16 Q And what did Val tell you? And I'm 

17 sorry, do you recall a last name? Or is that Val 

18 lS first? 

19 A I don't know his last name, I'm sorry. 

20 Q Okay, that's all right. And what did 

21 Val tell you? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

He did say that anything that doesn't 

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1 have a weight will be weighed and if it's bulky 

2 i terns, any bulky i terns that come in they re-weigh 

3 just to verify against the documents, whether 

4 there's a weight or not. 

5 Q And did you talk to him specifically 

6 about this case and back in 2011? 

7 A They don't, he wasn't able to answer 

8 who actually weighed the shipment. 

9 Q But was it their standard practice to 

10 weigh engines at that point in time, as well, to 

11 weigh as you say bulky items? 

12 A Yes. I did ask him and he said yes, 

13 they would weigh. 

14 Q Thank you, Ms. Flores. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, do you have 

16 any questions based just on the question that he 

17 just asked? 

18 MR. QUINN: I do. 

19 RECROSS EXAMINATION 

20 MR. QUINN: What you're talking about 

21 is after the fact? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

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1 MR. QUINN: Right, when they did all 

2 this, not before. 

3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

4 MR. QUINN: Okay. That's all. 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: Point of clarification. 

6 I'm not sure that, my understanding of Mr. 

7 Quinn's question was that, assuming that you did 

8 this, that Continental's practice was to weigh 

9 the bulky items after this whole event, but I 

10 think you testified earlier that it's been a 

11 longstanding practice of Continental and it 

12 wasn't in the practice to weigh bulky items was 

13 in place during 2011? 

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes it was ln 

15 place. 

16 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you. 

17 THE WITNESS: I 'm sorry, I thought you 

18 meant me speaking to Val was after the fact of 

19 weighing. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any further need of 

21 this witness? 

22 next case? 

(202) 234·4433 

Is she going to testify in the 

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1 MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. 

2 MR. QUINN: No, Your Honor. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. The Court has 

4 no further need for you. I'm going to instruct 

5 you not to discuss your testimony with anybody 

6 prior to the conclusion of the case. I'll leave 

7 it to Mr. Quinn and Mr. Bobertz as to whether she 

8 needs to remain. If you want to discharge her, 

9 that's fine with the Court. Anything further? 

10 MR. BOBERTZ: Nothing further, Your 

11 Honor. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: You can step down. 

13 Thank you, Ms. Flores. How many hours is it from 

14 here to Guam? Ms. Flores, how many hour flight 

15 is it from here to Guam? 

16 MS. FLORES: It's about a seven hour 

17 flight. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Sir, you want 

19 to call your next witness? 

20 MR. BOBERTZ: That's it. The 

21 Administrator rests and has no more witnesses. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. Quinn, it's 

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1 now your opportunity. You can rest, you can 

2 present more evidence, you can present evidence, 

3 you can take the stand and testify. You want to 

4 take a quick break? 

5 MR. QUINN: I would like to maybe get 

6 some water. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, let's do this, 

B let's take another five minute break. Cameron, 

9 do you need anything from Ms. Flores before she 

10 leaves ln terms of spelling? Okay. 

11 I'm trying to keep Cameron from being 

12 up at midnight banging his head against the wall 

13 because he didn't spell something. They can be 

14 our best friends and our worst enemies. They 

15 generally, get back at the judges by misspelling 

16 the judge's name. 

17 All right, Mr. Quinn, we'll come back 

18 at about 25 of. We'll go off the record. 

19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

20 went off the record at 2:31p.m. and resumed at 

21 2:39p.m.) 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, did you 

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1 want to testify? 

2 MR. QUINN: I do. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: So if you'll approach. 

4 Do you have a lot of exhibits there? If,you have 

5 some things you want to go through, I'll allow 

6 you to stay there but I'll still swear you. It's 

7 up to you, you can testify from where you are or 

8 you can testify up here. 

9 MR. QUINN: Okay, it doesn't matter to 

10 me. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, would you raise 

12 your right hand? 

13 WHEREUPON, 

14 MICHAEL QUINN 

15 was called as a witness by Counsel for the 

16 Respondent and, having been first duly sworn, 

17 assumed the witness stand, was examined and 

18 testified as follows: 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

20 State your name for the record and spell your 

21 first and last name, please. 

22 THE WITNESS: Michael R. Quinn, M-I-C-

(202) 234-4433 

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1 H-A-E-L, the initial R, Quinn, Q-U-I-N-N. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: You're pro se, Mr. 

3 Quinn. I'll give you some latitude. But 

4 typically, I've actually never seen this done, 

5 but typically there's a question and an answer, 

6 and a question and the answer. But I'll allow 

7 you to testify in a narrative form. 

B Correspondingly, I'll give the FAA 

9 attorney a little more latitude on cross. 

10 THE WITNESS: That's fine. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: So tell your story in 

12 the manner that you want to tell it. 

13 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

14 THE WITNESS: A little bit about my 

15 history. I started flying when I was 12 years 

16 old dn my grandfather's farm. I went to an 

17 aviation college, the oldest one in the country, 

18 Parks College. 

19 After college, I went into the Navy 

20 and became a Naval officer flying off of aircraft 

21 carriers. I did that for seven or eight years. 

22 Subsequent to that, I began flying for Braniff 

(202) 234·4433 

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1 International out of Dallas, Texas flying 727s, 

2 DC-8s, eventually moving into management at 

3 Braniff. 

4 They went bankrupt in 1982 and I've 

5 been pretty much on my own ever since. Heavily 

6 involved in large commercial aircraft, 727s, DC7 8s, 747 freighters; I've been involved in 

8 converting a number of airplanes. 

9 Currently involved in converting a 

10 large airplane. I founded Asia Pacific Airlines 

11 approximately 16 years ago, and we've been 

12 successfully flying 727 freighters in the Pacific 

13 arena for the last 15 years or so. 

14 I was heavily involved in writing our 

15 manuals. Exhibit 1, the load planning and weight 

16 manifest, is a document that I designed and 

17 created myself. 

18 I do all the weight and balance 

19 calculations on the airplane, or for the 

20 aircraft. I'm a commercial pilot, type rated in 

21 727, and flew our aircraft up until I turned 65 

22 two years ago. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 And so I've flown the aircraft in 

2 question, and I've flown the aircraft in question 

3 with Continental's engines on it on more than one 

4 occasion. 

5 I received a letter from Clarence via 

6 our attorney in Washington -- from Inspector 

7 Kanae, excuse me regarding this particular 

8 engine. And I would like to give a little bit of 

9 background about how this process works between 

10 Continental and United airlines. 

11 Ms. Flores testified to some of it. 

12 Continental has a unit of people based on the 

13 east side of the field, of the airport in Guam 

14 who packages and prepares documents for items 

15 that Continental wants to ship. 

16 And they notify Asia Pacific Airlines 

17 that they have an engine. We say, "Fine, we've 

18 done that before." The engine is brought to us 

19 on the west side of the field along with the 

20 documents. 

21 In this particular case, the engine 

22 was delivered a bit late. The crew was already 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 in the process of setting up the flight. And 

2 when we saw the documents, the alrway bill and 

3 the documents on the engine we said, "Hey, wait a 

4 minute. This engine is too heavy for us to 

5 carry." 

6 We're well aware of the limitations of 

7 our airplanes. We're well aware of the 10,000 

8 pound limit for the pallet position number 8 in 

9 which the engine was loaded. We don't contest 

10 that. 

11 We went back to Continental and said, 

12 ''You've got to take some stuff off this engine 

13 and get the weight down, which they did." That's 

14 the 316 pounds that wound up on a separate pallet 

15 in the back of the airplane. 

16 Over the years, to the knowledge of 

17 the people that worked for me in Guam, 

18 Continental has never weighed one of these 

19 engines because their scales don't go that high 

20 in Guam, or did not at that time. 

21 

22 

They've subsequently got a new scale, 

ln part as a result of this investigation. So I 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 guess there's some benefit to it. 

2 There was other things involved here. 

3 This particular flight was scheduled to fly from 

4 Guam to Ponape and then to Majuro, and then to 

5 Honolulu since our aircraft doesn't have the 

6 capability of flying to Honolulu non-stop. 

7 And we were constrained that day by 

8 the fact that they were doing work on the runway 

9 on Ponape and they were going to close the 

10 airport. And everybody was in a panic to try to 

11 get this paperwork done correctly. 

12 We were confident that after they took 

13 the weight off the engine, even though the 

14 casters were still on, that we were under 10,000 

15 pounds. We have already agreed with the FAA that 

16 the paperwork was incorrect. 

17 That said, I would say that it's a 

18 common practice to spread weights that weigh more 

19 than an individual pallet position over multiple 

20 positions. In this case, the three positions 

21 involved were positions seven, eight and nine. 

22 And as already has been testified, the 

(202) 234·4433 

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1 engine was in position eight, and I believe that 

2 Inspector Kanae said that positions seven and 

3 nine were empty. 

4 And so the maximum weights across 

5 those three positions are something like a little 

6 bit more than 28,000 pounds that you would have 

7 been able to put in those three positions. 

8 That said, in order to do this 

9 properly, if the engine had actually weighed more 

10 than 10,000 pounds, you would have had to put it 

11 on a pallet and braced it to where some of the 

12 weight was actually in the other pallet 

13 positions. 

14 I'm not sure if I'm making that 

15 entirely clear. Do you know what I'm saying? 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. So from my 

17 standpoint, some of the weight would have to be 

18 in zone seven or nine? 

19 THE WITNESS: Right. And it could 

20 have just been a few inches in. 

21 

22 

(202) 234·4433 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, I understand. 

THE WITNESS: But it would have had to 

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1 have been some kind of a bearing on the floor. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, okay. 

3 THE WITNESS: We were confident that 

4 the engine weighed less than 10,000 pounds. The 

5 paperwork didn't reflect that necessarily; the 

6 paperwork was filled out incorrectly. 

7 And we had to get the flight off. We 

8 didn't have enough time to get all this paperwork 

9 done. Inspector Kanae testified that it takes 

10 about 15 minutes to do the weight and balance 

11 sheet. And yes, sometimes you can get it done in 

12 15 minutes. 

13 Sometimes it takes 20 or 25, it's a 

14 complicated document. And so for at least a year 

15 or two, we've agreed to be fine for having a 

16 paperwork error. But only if they drop the 

17 overweight engine charge, because in our view, 

18 they have absolutely no evidence that it weighed 

19 more than 10,000 pounds. 

20 And I can assert that the engine was 

21 not weighed in Guam because at the time, they 

22 didn't have a scale to weigh something this 

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1 heavy, or as heavy as they claim it to be. 

2 Another aspect of this is that while 

3 we believe it's important to toe the line and run 

4 these guidelines, we have an aircraft that takes 

5 off at 100 tons, 200,000 pounds. It carries 

6 55,000 pounds of cargo; 400 pounds is nothing in 

7 the scheme of things. 

8 It's a very, very minor amount of 

9 weight in context of what we do. I've described 

10 it as the government coming after us for doing 31 

11 miles an hour ln a 30 zone. That's about the 

12 equivalent of it. 

13 And so after Inspector wrote me the 

14 letter saying he was starting the investigation, 

15 I replied to him two weeks later. And he says 

16 that he never got that letter, however the FAA 

17 gave it as part of their evidence later that year 

18 when they made their case. 

19 And my problem with this is that I 

20 wrote my letter to Inspector Kanae, I showed him 

21 evidence of what the engine weighed. I showed 

22 him evidence of what the stand weighed with the 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 casters on it. It came out to less than what 

2 they were asserting. 

3 And even after we added back in the 

4 pallet weight, the weight of the wood supports 

5 and the nets, it still was less than 10,000 

6 pounds, and he never replied to that. 

7 And typically, in my 35 years in this 

8 business, the FAA wouldn't just ship something 

9 off to the legal team. They would call you and 

10 say, you know, are you going to respond to my 

11 letter or did you respond or what. They would 

12 send an email before sending it off. 

13 And so when I didn't hear back from 

14 Inspector Kanae, I assumed the case had gone 

15 away, which is typically how a lot of these 

16 things occur. So when I got the letter from Mr. 

17 Bobetz six months later, I was shocked. 

18 And not only was I shocked that 

19 Inspector Kanae would ignore the evidence that I 

20 had submitted, but that the attorneys would also 

21 ignore it. And --

22 

(202) 234·4433 

MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, calls for 

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1 speculation. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand that, 

3 take it into consideration. Overruled. 

4 THE WITNESS: I have a lot of 

5 experience with commercial engines. I'm not so 

6 sure how much experience that Inspector Kanae 

7 has, but engines on an airplane, a commercial 

8 airplane, you know, there's a bare engine. 

9 Then there's certain equipment that is 

10 normally shipped with an engine like fuel control 

11 and a gear box. And then there's additional 

12 equipment like generators and starters that 

13 sometimes is shipped with an engine, sometimes 

14 it's not. 

15 There's multiple pieces of equipment 

16 generally called a quick engine change consisting 

17 of plumbing, wires, ducting, all sorts of things 

18 that all have weight. Sometimes they're shipped 

19 with the engine, and sometimes they're not. 

20 Continental did not keep a record of 

21 what was on this engine or what was not on this 

22 engine. We searched for it in hopes of proving 

(202) 234·4433 

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1 our case, and they said they don't keep that 

2 record. 

3 What they do when they have an engine 

4 lS they pull something out of the drawer that 

5 says the engine weighs this, the stand weighs 

6 this, they add it all up and they put the number 

7 on a piece of paper. 

8 This engine was never weighed in Guam; 

9 it was never weighed in Honolulu. And as Ms. 

10 Flores testified, there's no way to weigh an 

11 individual, no way to weigh an engine. 

12 I know that's a hard concept, but it's 

13 not an approved procedure to take an engine and 

14 set it down on the ground without it being on 

15 some sort of a stand. And so the only way that 

16 you can know what the engine weighs is you have 

17 to do an audit of what 's on it, the individual 

18 pieces, and that was never done. 

19 And this engine was covered, it 

20 clearly is shown in the picture, Exhibit 2, that 

21 it was covered. And so it's impossible to tell 

22 from looking at this picture whether any of these 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 items were or were not on the airplane. 

2 And so the FAA's case about this 

3 engine being overweight is entirely speculative. 

4 And as I said, we got in a hurry, we didn't do 

5 the paperwork correct. And we've agreed for 

6 years to pay a fine, but we don't agree to the 

7 level of the fine and that's another separate 

8 argument. 

9 And I have no objection to Ms. Flores 

10 testifying in this case, but she was not involved 

11 directly with this engine in question. And you 

12 know, nothing that she said, in my view, has a 

13 bearing on this particular case. 

14 She's observed other engines, she's 

15 observed various bits and pieces of it, but never 

16 collectively this englne. And as I've said, 

17 we've carried engines, they've spread across a 

18 lot of different weights. And it's our firm view 

19 that this engine did not weigh more than 10,000 

20 pounds. 

21 

22 have. 

(202) 234·4433 

And I think that's probably all I 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Bobertz, any 

2 inquiry? 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, thank you, Your 

4 Honor. 

5 CROSS EXAMINATION 

6 MR. BOBERTZ: So Mr. Quinn, you 

7 testified that you contacted, you got the englne, 

8 the documents, and you said you knew it was 

9 wrong; the engine wasn't over 10,000 pounds. So 

10 you asked Continental to remove some weight and 

11 they did, 316 pounds, isn't that correct? 

12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

13 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

14 Q So I'm looking at Administrator's 

15 Exhibit A-5 and I see that. I see that 316 

16 pounds was actually removed on Continental 

17 Airlines Unit Load Device, two pieces were 

18 removed. 

19 And then looking at Exhibit A-6 as 

20 we've talked before, the remaining weight from 

21 that 10,400 pounds was 10,084. And when you add 

22 the pallet and the straps and whatnot of 458 

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1 pounds, you get to 10,542 pounds. 

2 So I guess I'm a little confused 

3 because you're saying you didn't have time to 

4 correct the documents, but yet apparently United 

5 or Continental went back and corrected this 

6 document for you because now it shows 316 pounds 

7 off here, and reduced the englne weight 

8 according. And there you have it. So it looks 

9 like the corrections you asked for were made by 

10 Continental. 

11 A Well, the document that I think you're 

12 referring to is A-4, initially? 

13 Q No, I'm looking at A-5 and A-6 where 

14 they show that 316 pounds. It's also on your 

15 document as well, A-4, you're correct, 316 pounds 

16 removed from the total engine weight. 

17 A You know, I don't question that. What 

18 I questioned was that the weights that came over 

19 originally, the 10,400 pounds on the airway bill, 

20 which is what we got, was incorrect. From 

21 previous experience and from the facts, I mean, I 

22 guess it's hard for me to describe. 

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1 You know, the engine comes over, it's 

2 sitting there. You got the flight crews rapidly 

3 trying to figure out the paperwork. We're trying 

4 to get the flight out because they're going to 

5 close the airport and it's going to be delayed a 

6 couple of days if that happens. 

7 And we asked them to fix these things 

8 and they scratched out some new numbers. But it 

9 started from not from weighing anything but from 

10 a file in a drawer. 

11 Q So how do they have time to scratch 

12 out the new numbers but not correct the original 

13 starting weight? They have time to give you a --

14 A Because that would have required going 

15 back across the field and having a new airway 

16 bill because people on our side of the field 

17 don't do airway bills. And it takes 15 or 20 

18 minutes probably to get from one side of the 

19 field to the other. 

20 Q So you said you requested corrected 

21 bills, or corrected documents. So you're saying 

22 that the Exhibits 5 and 6 were corrected, but 

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1 that Exhibit A wasn't. But you did ask 

2 Continental for corrected documents. 

3 So where is the corrected version, 

4 albeit maybe you didn't wait for -- you took off 

5 before you got it. Where is the corrected 

6 document from Continental then? 

7 A Well, you know, Exhibit 4 is an Asia 

8 Pacific document. And we believe that that 

9 document is based on information that we were 

10 provided by, and I'm going to assume this is 

11 Continental Cargo as opposed to the shipping 

12 group, after we asked them to remove some things 

13 from this engine. 

14 And Exhibits 5 and 6, I honestly don't 

15 know how exactly they're connected other than the 

16 fact that it shows the 316 pounds migrating on to 

17 this separate pallet. 

18 Q So you're saying you're so sure the 

19 weight was wrong, yet you didn't even correct 

20 your own document, your own cargo manifest to 

21 show the correct weight. 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Now, we've admitted to the fact that 

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1 the paperwork is incorrect. We were in a 

2 difficult position. Continental was saying 

3 please take our engine, we need to get it out, 

4 we're in a hurry. We're trying to get the flight 

5 out. 

6 We operate in a very difficult 

7 environment, okay? And we were satisfied that we 

8 had questioned them on the engine, that we had 

9 got them to reduce it below 10,000 pounds. 

10 Then we got bogged down in trying to 

11 get the paperwork correct because at APA there's 

12 several people involved, but there's also several 

13 people on both sides of the airport at 

14 Continental that are involved, that you know, 

15 that are responsible for getting the paperwork 

16 right. 

17 We eventually decided, and you know, 

18 we will allow that it's a mistake although a 

19 minor one, we left with incorrect paperwork. We 

20 didn't have the 20 minutes to re-do the Exhibit 1 

21 or to get a new airway bill typed up and across 

22 the field back and forth. 

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1 I mean, that's a process; getting a 

2 new airway bill probably would have taken an hour 

3 at best. 

4 Q So you never got corrected documents, 

5 is that what you're saying? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Isn't that because the documents that 

8 we have in front of us are correct, that 

9 Continental probably refused to correct documents 

10 that were already correct? 

11 A No, we don't believe they are correct. 

1.2 Q Who did you contact at Continental to 

13 get corrected documents? 

14 A I'm going to guess that that was a 

15 conversation between Mr. Walker and Rose Onedera. 

16 That would have been the beginning of the process 

17 now. 

18 Rose probably might have contacted Ms. 

19 Flores, I don't know, or somebody in her office. 

20 And they would have gone back and forth on this. 

21 But as I said, we've carried other engines 

22 successfully and properly for Continental for 

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1 years. 

2 (Off microphone comments) 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: One moment please, Your 

4 Honor. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

6 THE WITNESS: I guess the substance of 

7 my argument is that this engine --

8 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor 

9 THE WITNESS: -- could have weighed 

10 plus or minus 1,000 pounds depending on what was 

11 attached to it and what was not attached to it. 

12 There is no record of what was attached to it or 

13 what wasn't attached to it. The engine was never 

14 weighed, period. 

15 And so there's no evidence whatsoever 

16 that would prove that this engine weighed 

17 anything. It came off a piece of paper in 

18 somebody' s file over in Continental saying the 

19 engine weighed X. And where that number came 

20 from, I have no idea. 

21 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, may I 

22 approach? 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

2 MR. BOBERTZ: I have what's been 

3 marked for identification purposes as 

4 Administrator's Exhibit A-10, 11, and 12. 

5 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 

6 documents were marked as Administrator's Exhibits 

7 A-10, A-11, and A-12 for identification.) 

8 MR. BOBERTZ: Mr. Quinn, can you tell 

9 me --

10 THE WITNESS: I'm objecting to --

11 (Simultaneous speaking) 

12 MR. BOBERTZ: what Exhibit A-10 is? 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, let's get 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: Mr. Quinn, can you tell 

15 me what Exhibit A-10 is? 

16 THE WITNESS: Do I have it? 

17 MR. BOBERTZ: I just gave it to you. 

18 THE WITNESS: Okay, but I object to 

19 it. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, it hasn't been 

21 offered, so the objection is premature. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

THE WITNESS: It has no bearing 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE, N.W. 

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1 whatsoever on the case in hand. 

2 MR. BOBERTZ: Mr. Quinn, can you 

3 please tell me what Exhibit A-10 is? 

4 THE WITNESS: I have A-11, 12 and oh 

5 10. I guess that's 10. Okay. Your question 

6 was? 

7 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

8 Q Can you please tell me what this 

9 document is? 

10 A It's an Asia Pacific's load planner 

11 and weight manifest. 

12 Q And when is it dated? 

13 A April 3rd, 2011. 

14 Q It's hard to tell whether it was April 

15 3rd, 2011 or March 4th, 2011. One was written 

16 and one was scratched. So either way, it was 

17 April or May 2011. 

18 Mr. Quinn, to me this looks awfully 

19 similar, close in time and awfully similar. You 

20 just testified that you've been doing this for 

21 years, you've never carried overweight engines. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

Yet, within a month plus or minus of 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
1 the case at hand, we have another engine 9,500 

2 pounds and then shown spread across two zones 

3 with equal weight shown on either side. Yet you 

4 just said you carried engines all the time and 

5 you don't carry overweight engines. 

6 A I don't believe this has any bearing 

7 on the case at hand. That said, this was never 

8 presented to us. We never had a chance to look 

9 into it. I have no idea what the crew was 

10 thinking, what they were doing, what was said or 

11 what was said or what was not said. 

12 Q Mr. Quinn --

13 A We get into a bind with these things. 

14 But this engine wouldn't have been weighed either 

15 because they didn't have a scale or the ability 

16 to weigh the engine. They have multiple people 

17 putting these documents together. 

18 They frequently come to us wrong and 

19 we do our best to try to get them corrected in 

20 time. And sometimes we fail to get them 

21 corrected in time. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

So Mr. Quinn, can you please look at 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
1-126 

1 Exhibit A-ll? And isn't that another englne 

2 shipment, this one in two pieces, a gross weight 

3 of 10,750 pounds? 

4 A Same response. 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. Your 'Honor, I 

6 move that Administrator's Exhibits A-10 and A-ll 

7 be moved into evidence. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: There's an objection. 

9 I'm going to admit it, the objection is going to 

10 go to the weight the Court's going to consider ln 

11 weighing the relevancy of the exhibits. 

12 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 

13 documents were received into evidence as 

14 Administrator's Exhibits A-10 and A-11.) 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: This is an 

16 administrative proceeding, there's a little more 

17 latitude given in the admission of the documents. 

18 It'll go to the weight that the Court. I don't 

19 show that I admitted Exhibit 9, or that it was 

20 offered. 

21 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

22 If we didn't at the time, that was the photo of 

(202) 234·4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE,, N.W 

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1 the engine that Ms. Flores testified about. And 

2 the Administrator would offer Exhibit A-9 into 

3 evidence. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you have any 

5 objection to that, Mr. Quinn? It's the one of 

6 just happens to be an engine. 

7 THE WITNESS: Fine. I mean, I don't 

8 have any objection to it, but it doesn't tell us 

9 anything. It's another engine wrapped with a 

10 tarp and where you can't tell what is on it or 

11 what is not on it. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, understand 

13 that. The Court takes note. 

14 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 

15 document was received into evidence as 

16 Administrator's Exhibit No. A-9.) 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything else? 

18 THE WITNESS: I have nothing. 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: No, I'm sorry, Your 

20 Honor. Still a few more. So Mr. Quinn, Exhibit 

21 A-1, the Load Planner Weight Manifest, you 

22 testified that you took of with it knowingly 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

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1 incorrect because you didn't have the time to 

2 correct it. Did you correct it after the fact, 

3 then? 

4 THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't take off 

5 with it; the flight crew took off with it. And 

6 typically, they would not correct it once the 

7 flight took off. It becomes a matter of record, 

8 we're required to keep these for 90 days on file. 

9 And all I can say is that since the 

10 paperwork from Continental never got corrected, 

11 they wouldn't have had anything else to base a 

12 correct ion on. And again, you know, the amount 

13 of pounds that are over here are tiny and 

14 insignificant given the size of this airplane and 

15 the fact that we could have carried nearly 30,000 

16 pounds in position, in these three positions. 

17 Q Mr. Quinn, are you familiar with how 

18 the engineers calculate the maximum load for a 

19 particular cargo area? 

20 A 

21 Q 

22 A 

(202) 234·4433 

Yes, I am. 

And how did they do that? 

It's complicated. They're engineers. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1-129 

1 They have metal studies, but they always 

2 calculate in 10 or 15 percent gravy over what 

3 they really think the numbers are. 

4 Q And why is that? 

5 A And then they round the numbers to 

6 make them easy to work with rather than having, 

7 you know, individual four digit numbers. It's 

8 not unlike a passenger carrier. 

9 You have a 777 that holds 350 people. 

10 They don't weigh every person and every bag that 

11 goes onto the airplane. They have a round number 

12 that they use. And on any given day, on an 

13 airplane of that size it could be off by several 

14 thousand pounds, plus or minus. 

15 And we all live with that. And 

16 typically in the cargo business, we all live with 

17 a little laxity with respect to the numbers from 

18 time to time. That's just the way it is. 

19 There's absolutely no way that you could adhere 

20 to everything that's out there. 

21 I could give you another example. You 

22 know, the rules say that we're supposed to weigh, 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
1-13 0 

1 calculate the center of gravity of every single 

2 one of these pallets, that the center of gravity 

3 of every single pallet has to be within a certain 

4 distance of the center. 

5 Nobody does that. That would be 

6 impossible. You would never get anything shipped 

7 if you had to do that. You put, you know, the 

8 boxes and the engines and the cargo that you're 

9 carrying and you put it on there based on 

10 eyeballing it so that it's not all on one end. 

11 You know, you don't put all the books 

12 on one end and all the feathers on the other end. 

13 MR. BOBERTZ: I have no further 

14 questions. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Any additional 

16 testimony, Mr. Quinn? 

17 MR. QUINN: No. No, thank you. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any further evidence 

19 in this case? 

20 

21 

22 Quinn. 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I meant to ask Mr. 

Do you have any additional witnesses 

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1-131 

1 besides yourself? 

2 MR. QUINN: I do not. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So that 

4 concludes the case -- this case. Okay. Let's go 

5 off the record just long enough to let Cameron 

6 get his notes together. Okay, so we're going to 

7 go off the record for a minute. 

8 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

9 went off the record at 3:15p.m. and resumed at 

10 3:18p.m.) 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN : We're back on the 

12 record. We were off the record and had 

13 discussions about we've concluded 0468. We had 

14 discussions about commencing the next case. We 

15 have about an hour and a half of usable time here 

16 for the courthouse. 

17 What we're going to do with respect to 

18 0469, we will reconvene at 0800 tomorrow. We 

19 will start that case and go until its conclusion. 

20 So with that, we'll go off the record, 

21 reconvene at 8 o'clock in the morning here. And 

22 I'll probably be here a little early, so we'll 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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1 get started promptly at 8 o'clock in the morning. 

2 All right? 

3 Anything el.se? Okay, we're off the 

4 record. 

5 (Whereupon, the hearing went off the 

6 record at 3:19p.m.) 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

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A accessory47:14 14:715:816:1218:18 Appendix3:19 31:1,14 

$1 60:22 accuracy 30:11 18:19 20:20 25:3 26:2 applies 91:3 93:6 

$2260:19 action 12:6 29:20 34:20 36:10 appreciate 34:12 

A-13:8 16:2017:2,17 active 11 :7 37:7 39:10,15 40:15 approach 16:21 21:20 

17:18 18:4,8,9,12 actual16:11 18:17,19 60:19,21 62:16 84:20 28:6 30:16 61:16 

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127:21 40:13 52:16 53:19 105:6,20,21 106:1,2 approached 15:4 21:9 

A-10321123:4,7,12,15 add 26:15 66:6 114:6 108:5111:4 appropriate 5:21 

124:3 126:6,14 116:21 airframe 29:20 approved114:13 

A-114:10 123:7124:4 added 68:5 112:3 airline 81:8 95:13 96:6 approximately 41 :8 

126:1,6,14 additional 9:3 113:11 airlines 3:12 8:8,9 105:11 

A-12 4:13 123:7 130:15,22 11:20 17:19 25:16 April 3:22 4:17 40:21 

A-2 3:10 16:20 17:2 addressed 9:6 26:19,20 27:13 34:20 41:7 43:10 44:9 55:18 

18:14,2119:1562:3 addresses 6:11 36:6,8 44:8 54:17 57:17 76:15 124:13 

73:9 74:5 75:6 78:7 adhere 129:19 60:6 78:21 92:16 124:14,17 

A-33:1121:1922:1 Administration 2:3 94:10105:10106:10 area 14:6,8 96:12 97:2 

24:5 25:20,2126:1,16 10:14,20 106:16 116:17 128:19 

54:19,20 62:3,6,12 administrative 1:20 airmen 12:8 arena 105:13 

6318 64:19 65:18 126:16 airplane 29:18 35:1 argument 56:13 115:8 

67:1 70:4 72:21 94:12 Administrator 3:7 4:8 86:17 92:17 105:10 122:7 

A-4 3:12 21:19 22:1 5:8 8:3 9:12,21 59:14 105:19107:15113:7 Army 11:8 

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117:15 Administrator's 16:20 129:11,13 arrived 14:6 58:3 

A-5 3:14 21:19 22:1 17:118:4,12,21 19:15 airplanes 34:16 37:5 Asia 3:8,12,21 4:10 

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24:5 26:15 62:3,6,21 admission 23:3 126:17 airspace 38:3 93:8 94:9 95:12 

62:22 63:4 65:16,17 admit 126:9 airway 3:11 54:20 55:2 105:10106:16119:7 

66:3 67:9,20 98:3 admitted 24:1 53:8 63:14 64:9,20 65:6,20 124:10 

116:19117:13 119:22 126:19 66:2,19 90:16 91:17 aside 9:2 

A-7 3:17 28:6,22 29:9 admonished 88:17 97:18107:2 117:19 asked 15:7 21:10 25:5 

75:13 admonition 80:4 118:15,17120:21 31:199:17116:10 

A-8 3:18 30:15 32:4 Aero 1:5 2:10 5:4,12 121:2 117:9118:7119:12 

75:11,13 7:1411:2012:15,16 Ala 1:12 asking 42:20 

A-9 3:20 75:18 76:2 13:20 17:22 27:5 albeit 119:4 asks 38:15 

78:7 127:2,16 aft20:17 allocated 87:5 aspect29:16111:2 

ability 95:12 125:15 afternoon 9:14 allow 49:11 56:20 103:5 assert 110:20 

able 56:9 70:9 72:6,10 Agency 19:12 23:16 104:6120:18 asserting 112:2 

7916 82:19 83:18 24:1 allowance 8:1 assigned 11:1912:12 

99:7 109:7 ago 91 :22 105:11 ,22 AMERICA 1:1 36:5,15 

above-entitled 1:15 agree 39:10 40:4,5 American 37:2 assume 24:6 38:9 41:4 

59:6 102:19 131:8 45:16,17 48:14 53:5 amount111:8128:12 51:6 56:18 78:4 93:18 

above-referenced 53:16 115:6 Angeles 2:6 62:19 93:21 94:2 119:10 

75:19 agreed 27:16108:15 answer 38:17,20 47:9 assumed 9:22 59:15 

above-referred 16:22 110:15115:5 48:6 80:6 83:4 96:11 103:17112:14 

18:10 19:13 21:21 agreeing 24:8 99:7 104:5,6 assuming 7:6 100:7 

24:3 28:7 29:7 30:17 ahead 13:1814:4 17:6 anybody 56:16 58:11 assure 88:15 

43:21 51:1 123:5 20:8 25:2 28:1 65:13 101:5 attached 47:2,13 48:5 

126:12 127:14 75:10 APA 78:21 120:11 52:20,21 85:10,17 

absolutely 68:22 air11:14,2212:7,8,10 apologies 22:20 86:10 87:2 90:22 

110:18129:19 12:11,14 34:18,19 apparently 22:16 117:4 122:11,11,12,13 

accept 72:1 73:4 77:6 37:1,2 APPEARANCES 2:1 attachments 42:4,5,12 

accepted 62:2 aircraft7:1811:1213:8 appears 39:9 48:20 43:14 

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attempt 5:20 48:3 41:246:748:1153:10 130:20 71:4,6,21,22 72:5,17 

attorney 104:9 106:6 76:15 97:10109:1 Bobetz 112:17 77:3 82:8,17 83:1,3 

attorneys 112:20 111:3119:8121:11 bogged 120:10 84:16 90:22 91:1 93:3 

audit 114:17 125:6 books 130:11 94:10,10 96:6,22 97:6 

authority 56:1 benefit 108:1 bottom 25:19 97:8 98:12 111:6 

authorized 55:7 best102:14121:3 box2:5 59:1113:11 119:11,20128:19 

available 32:3 69:1 125:19 boxes 130:8 129:16 130:8 

average 39:1 better 49:10 braced 109:11 carried 87:14 88:8,10 

aviation 2:3 8:3 9:12 big 78:5 Braniff 104:22 105:3 88:21115:17121:21 

10:14,20,22 11 :2 bill3:1121:1325:15,16 break 58:20 72:7,13 124:21125:4128:15 

31 :20 62:6 104:17 26:19,19 54:20 63:14 73:5 102:4,8 carrier11:14,2212:10 

avionics 13:5 64:10,21 65:6,20 66:3 breakdown 76:7 12:1113:2 34:18,19 

aware 81:13 82:10 66:19 90:16 91:17 briefly7:118:1710:21 36:10,16,18,19,22 

92:16,17,18,21 93:4 97:18107:2117:19 12:1 17:6 24:14 25:12 129:8 

107:6,7 118:16 120:21 121:2 60:13 98:8 carriers 12:7,8,14 

awfully 124:18,19 bills 55:2 118:17,21 bring 31:17 69:14 104:21 

AWP-7.7 2:5 bind 125:13 broke 72:2 carries 111:5 

bit19:4 62:10 96:16 broken 63:1 66:20 carry95:12,15107:5 

B 104:14 106:8,22 67:16 125:5 

B3:1931.1,14 109:6 brought 106:18 carrying 130:9 

back 11 :3,6 15:15,18 bits115:15 bulky 69:17 83:2 97:14 case 5:22 8:5,6,7, 15 

27:5 39:22 41:9 58:21 bleed 47:16 99:1,2,11100:9,12 20:1 30:7 47:14 53:11 

63:11 65:2,18 87:11 Blvd 1:12 business 6:11 11:20 56:10 76:12 78:2 79:2 

88:17 91:10 92:7 93:8 board 18:19 81:1112:8129:16 79:20 99:6 100:22 

95:15 97:16 99:6 boards 76:9 77:17 buy-out 61 :4 101:6106:21108:20 

102:15,17 107:11,15 Bobertz 2:3 5:7,7 6:18 111:18112:14114:1 

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background 106:9 18:3,13,16,20 19:16 C-A-T-H-E-R-1-N-E cases 5:4 7:5 8:19 9:5,7 

Backing 24 15 20:2,4,6,921:1,17 59:21 31:488:16 

bad 76:17 22:3,8, 12, 15,19 23:7 C-L-A-R-E-N-C 10:6 caster74:14 78:9 

bag 129:10 23:13,17,21 24:13,19 CA 2:6,13 casters 52:16,17,18 

balance 20:14 21 :13 28:11,14,17.2129:10 cabin 15:19 53:15,19,19 54:3 74:1 

65:22 105:18 110:10 29:22 30:14,21 31:12 cabinets 31 :8 74:6,22 75:7 78:5,6 

banging 102:12 32:5 33:19,20 35:17 calculate 128:18 129:2 108:14112:1 

bankrupt 105:4 37:1238:1541:15,19 130:1 category 37:7 

bare8114113:8 42:3,7,13,19 43:7,15 calculations 105:19 catering 61:1 

barely 49:9 43:19 44:3,13,20 45:3 call8:3,8,16 9:1016:7 Catherine 3:4 8:10 

base 128:11 47:4 49:1.4.19,22 42:10 58:17 61:13 59:12,20 89:4 

based 34:4 79:15 80:1 50:4,8,16 53:6 55:13 101:19112:9 cause 29:19 

80:3 81:20 95:10 55:21 56:3,18,19 58:8 called 9:20 59:13 ceased 15:3 

99:16 106:12119:9 58:14,15 59:3 60:3,7 103:15 113:16 center 130:1,2.4 

130:9 61:18,21 62:20 64:12 calls 9:12 92:5 112:22 certain 113:9 130:3 

basic 43:5 85:22 65:13,14 66:1,16 camera 40:10 Certainly 11 :2 49:4 

basically 8:22 14:5,18 68:19 69:5,9 71:6,10 Cameron 102:8,11 certainty 82:20 88:20 

27:11 57:13 73:8,13 74:14,16,19 131:5 certificate 35:15 

basis 56:8 75:9,16,22 76:4 77:11 capability 108:6 certificates 14:15,16 

bear 22:3 77:19,22 78:15,18 capable 55:10 certification 12:7,8 

bearing 110:1115:13 81 :5,9 86:4 98:8,10 captain 14:13 certified 27:13 29:19 

123:22 125:6 98:15100:5,16 101:1 care 6:20 42:7 55:5 96:10 

began 104:22 101:7,10,20112:22 cargo 3:13 7:18 8:1 cetera 46:4 47:19 

beginning 8:15121:16 116:1 ,3,6, 13 122:3,8 15:3,5,11 ,13,17,19 chance 17:4 95:20 

behalf 2:2,8 87:15 122:21 123:2,8,12,14 16:4 24:17 25:4,5,7 125:8 

believe 17:8 23:1,2 123:17124:2,7 126:5 26:20 27:4 29:17 change 15:12 45:1 87:8 

34:13 35:8 40:6,10 126:21 127:19 130:13 30:10 69:12,15,19,21 113:16 

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changed 73:22 95:17 components 46:4,10 81:15113:10 Courtroom 1:10 

characterize 95:11 47:1,2,14 66:2177:13 convenience 31:12 covered 48:3 114:19,21 

charge 15:6110:17 computed 20:14 46:5 conversation 31:16 created 105:17 

charges 9:2 concept 114:12 121:15 crew 14:13 20:13 38:14 

Charlie 3216,17 concern 29:11 converting 105:8,9 106:22 125:9 128:5 

checked 14:14 concerned6:516:2 cookie 16:7,10 77:18 crews 118:2 

circled 45:12 48:11 concerns 29:14 coordinators 91:7 cross 3:2 7:9 34:10 

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civilian 11:11,12,12 concludes 131:4 copies 22:9,10 31:8 crossed44:17 

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50:161:19106:5 conduct 12:21 copy 3:17 4:21 6:15,16 currently 11:19105:9 

clarification 100:5 conducted 8:4 7:5 22:15,16 28:15 cut 23:4 

clarify 19:22 34:8 conducting 12:15 31:13,17,17 42:13 CW411:10 

clean 49:5 conference 27:1 0 44:7 49:5,7,10,11,16 

clear4:21 6:1649:1,7 confident 108:12 110:3 49:16,20 50:9,9,9,11 D 

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109:15 configured 16:9 29:18 corner 25:19 53:2 64:20 damaged 27:21,22 

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closer 35:11 connected 119:15 46:11 47:21 53:4 44:8 57:16 124:12 

cockpit 14:12,22 consider 126:10 54:11 '12,21 ,22 58:4 dates 76:18 

code 65:10 consideration 113:3 69:11 75:12 83:13 day 12:2213:21 40:10 

collect 61:18 considered 6:1 92:2 97:9 115:5 108:7 129:12 

collectively 115:16 consistent31:19 116:11117:4,15 days 57:10118:6128:8 

college 104:17,18,19 consisting 113:16 118:12119:19,21 DC 105:6 

column 52:13,14 constrained 108:7 120:11121:8,9,10,11 DC-8s 105:2 

COMAT 32:16 contact 89:15,21 128:2,2,6 deal77:4 

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comes 13:22 69:17 CONTENTS 3:1 correction 128:12 58:2 120:17 

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coming 14:1 78:16 context 111:9 correctly 35:5 108:11 delay 22:20 56:8 

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commencing 131:14 21:10 24:17 25:7,15 corresponds 65:18 deliver 87:8 

comment 15:8,11 50:3 26:18 32:18 33:11 counsel 2:4 5:5,7 9:20 delivered 48:19 97:7 

commented 42:16 54:17 61:4,5,11,13,14 10:8 13:18 31:10 57:8 106:22 

comments 41:9 122:2 62:9 69:22 70:1 80:14 59:1360:1103:15 delivery 55:7 

commercial 90:21 82:7 89:6,14 93:15 countries 38:6 department 1:1 71:1 

105:6,20 113:5,7 98:12100:11106:10 country 104:17 92:5 

common 108 18 106:12,15107:11,18 couple 47:11 118:6 depending 35:2 46:21 

comparison 16:14 113:20116:10,16 cOurse 5:17 122:10 

compartment 46:22 117:5,10 119:2,6,11 court1:115:186:14,16 depends 87:22 

compile 92:13 120:2,14 121:9,12,22 6:2213:12 31:2,19 describe 10:21 12:1 

Complainant 2:2 5:8 122:18 128:10 32:1,4,8 42:18 44:7 20:10 37:8,17 60:14 

complaint 42:11 Continental's 100:8 45:1 49:18 51:18 77:12 117:22 

complete 63:14 106:3 64:17 88:12,17101:3 described 111:9 

compliance 3:18 29:15 Continental/United 101:9126:18127:13 designed 105:16 

30:22 87:15 Court's 6:5 49:6 51:14 destination's 62:18 

complicated 110:14 contracted 70:2 126:10 destinations 37:10 

128:22 control46:4 47:12,15 courthouse 131 :16 detail62:11 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Volume 1 

136 

determine 48:4 56:7 64:15 108:8 75:2,5 76:6 77:4,5,16 everyone's 51:14 

device66:21116:17 111:10124:20125:10 77:17,20 78:1,2 81:8 everything's 30:5 

Diablo 211 domain 32:3 81:15,15,16,18,18 evidence 7:13,21 18:4 

difference 78:5 Don 2:3 5:7 82:3,20 83:6,9,1 0,11 18:9,11,2119:7,11,14 

different 14:9 1712 don.bobertz@faa.gov 83:15,16,17,18,19,20 23:15 24:4 28:2,22 

26:8 35:3 38:6 39:19 2:7 84:4,5 85:1 ,6,7,7, 17 29:5,8 43:12 62:3 

50:15 54:3 64:4,6,9 dragged 8:20 86:1,11,16 87:4,6,7,8 80:1 102:2,2110:18 

81:13 82:14 94:4 drawer 114:4 118:1 0 87:9,10,10,16 88:2 111:17,21,22112:19 

97:20 115:18 drink 22:6 89:6,14 90:3,6,18 122:15 126:7,13 

difficult 38:5 83:16 drive 71 :9 91:4,7 92:6,11 93:10 127:3,15 130:18 

120:2,6 drop50:1 71:20110:16 93:13 94:3 95:4 96:7 exactly 34:15 50:12 

difficulty 37:9,17 dry 45:13 96:8,17,20 97:7 98:12 119:15 

digit 129:7 ducting47:20 113:17 106:8,17,18,21107:3 EXAMINATION 10:9 

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dimensions 52:10,12 duplicate 22:8 31:8 109:1,9110:4,17,20 99:19104:13116:5 

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104:13 duty11:7 114:3,5,8,11 ,13,16,19 103:17 

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discussed 17:5 31:14 east90:11,12,14 97:3 engineer 14:14 106:7 

discussing 78:3 106:13 engineers 128:18,22 exhibit 3:6 4:6,22 17:17 

discussions 131:13,14 easy 129:6 engines74:17,21 81:13 17:1818:4,8,12,14,21 

distance 130:4 effective 31 :20 85:10 86:10 87:1,13 19:7,10,12,15,17 

distinct67:21 effort 85:13 88:1,3,4,21 91:8,13 20:10 21:3 25:17,20 

distributed 20:16,17 eight 40:2 104:21 91:14 94:21 95:12 25:21 26:1,12,15,16 

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docket 5:4 96:18 124:16 125:3 121:21 124:21 125:4 32:10 33:5,10 38:9 

document 3:6,14,15 4:6 125:14 125:5 130:8 39:7 40:1,6,17 41:14 

18:1119:14,1920:11 elaborate 34:15 39:8 enlisted 11 :5 41:18,19,2142:9,17 

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documentation 8:12 30:22 31:5 57:3,5,11 113:9,12,15 75:18,20 78:7,7 91:16 

27:12 engine 3:10,20 7:17,22 equivalent 111:12 93:22 94:1,6 97:22 

documents 6:8 8:6 17:1 15:19,20,21 16:2,4,5 error30:1110:16 98:3 105:15 114:20 

17:22 21:11,12,13,22 16:518:18 20:15,21 especially 69:17 116:15,19119:1,7 

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25:13,15 28:241:13 27:21 37:3 39:10,15 estimate 38:10,22 124:3126:1,19127:2 

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99:3 106:14,20 107:2 48:9 49:20 52:20 54:8 evacuated 46:15 17:1,9 21:19,22 23:14 

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118:21119:2121:4,7 63:7,8 66:22 68:6,6,9 eventually 105:2 26:5 27:4 43:6 61:19 

121:9,13123:6 68:11,13 69:6,14,14 120:17 62:3,21 66:17 103:4 

125:17126:13,17 70:9 71:15,18 72:1,4 everybody 108:10 118:22119:14123:6 

doing 11:2015:16 18:1 72:14,17 73:16,19 Everybody's 7:8 126:6,11,14 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Volume 1 

137 

expand 36:12 filled 39:2 110:6 121:20 goes 56:6 129:11 

expedite 7:3 filling 89:8 forward 15:20 20:16 going 5:17 7:4,8 15:14 

experience 10:22 11 :2 fills 91:17 forwarded 57:7,11,16 24:16 42:9 44:22 

11:11,13 34:14 36:14 final62:18 69:6 found 19:20 50:20 51:18 58:9,10 

1135,6117:21 finally 6:19 foundation 17:7 59:4 62:1,4 64:18 

explain 45:22 71:17 find 75:13 foundational 23:5 65:10 79:14,16 84:15 

explanation 65:15 findings 24:14 founded 105:10 91:14100:21101:4 

extra 41 :20 43:8,9 fine6:1824:12 26:11 four52:21 74:7,11 75:7 108:9 112:10118:4,5 

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extremely 83:16 51:8,1155:16101:9 frame 52:20 76:16 126:9,9,10131:6,17 

eyeballing 130:10 104:10106:17110:15 free 96:3 good 9:14 78:20 

115:6,7 127:7 Freedom 37:1 Goodwin 1:19 5:3,9,14 

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112:8 98:18103:16,21 full7:8 10:3 22:15 31:8 28:10 29:1 ,4 30:20 

FAA's 56:6 79:19 115:2 fit16:11 59:18 31:3,10,15 32:7,14,19 

FAA-2012-0468 1:6 five 58:20 102:8 furnish 90:20 33:3,10,14,17,21 34:3 

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filing 31:8 56:7 forms 81:14 107:19126:10,18 gravy 129:2 

fill 71 :20 forth 6:11 92:12 120:22 131:4,7,19,20 Great 13:17 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Volume 1 

138 

gross 26:3 126:2 93:16107:4111:1,1 impossible 114:21 instruct58:10 101:4 

ground 15:6 84:6 86:21 helicopter 11:6,9 130:6 integrity 29:20 

114:14 helicopters 11 :12,16 inaccurate 7:15 29:11 inter-island 34:18 

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heavy 15:12 34:22 93:9 important 49:13 111:3 installed 71:16 74:2 71:2,5 72:13,19 73:2 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Volume 1 

139 

74:8,12 75:15 77:8 109:15112:10113:8 62:10 96:16 104:9,14 119:20124:11127:21 

78:8,12 79:11,13,19 114:12,16115:12 106:8109:5117:2 manifests 90:17 

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89:19 91:3,21 92:1,6 listed 26:16 46:6 32:20 33:2 90:19 2:15 

93:6,15 96:1 98:19 little 8:19 19:4 37:18 94:11,20105:16 miles 111:11 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Volume 1 

140 

military 11 :5 102:9 120:3 29:2,2 35:17,21 37:12 89:2,12 90:1 91:12,16 

million 60:19,22 needed 75:2 77:5 38:15 47:4 53:6,7 92:2 93:20 94:13,14 

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110:12118:18120:20 124:21 125:7,8 occasion 73:9 106:4 oldest 104:17 

misspelling 102:15 128:10130:6 occur 112:16 once 128:6 

mistake 120:18 new 82:13 107:21 118:8 occurred 41 :3 70:13 Onedera 77:2,10 89:21 

mitigation 56:13 118:12,15120:21 82:6 121:15 

Mm-hmm 81 :2 95:5 121:2 occurs 14:5 ones 17-12 

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model 35:3 nomenclature 33:18 October 31:21 36:4 operate 37:19 120:6 

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moment24:16 44:13 non 29:14 43:11 127:2 operation 37:22 

61:22 122:3 non-stop 108:6 offered 19:6 123:21 operations 11:21 13:3 

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month 124:22 normally 31:6 72:21 offering 31 :11 opportunity 7:9 102:1 

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93:16 100:20 101:4 19:1 '1 ,8 23:3,9,11 82:5,19 84:11 88:19 8:2211:2013:817:19 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

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Volume 1 

141 

26:20 36:6,8 37 10,11 passenger 34:20 129:8 85:20,22 86:6 99:10 priority 91:8 

37:18 44:8 78:21 81:1 Pause 22:18 41:16 100:5 private 11 :4 

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60:22 84:20 94:22 point9:5 31:1156:14 58:12 82:21 101:6 80:3,5 94:18 99:16 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

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Volume 1 

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100:7 104:5,6 106:2,2 raise 5:19 9:17 59:9 62:8 106:7 responsible 60:18 

115:11117:17124:5 103:11 region 2:4 57:8,12 120:15 

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52:1 regarding 21:14 24:15 responsibilities 12:4 save 55:8 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Volume 1 

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Seventeen 80:18,19 situation 36:17 102:3103:17111:22 supervisor 8:10 25:4 

Neal R Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Volume 1 

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Neal R Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Volume 1 

145 

voice 45:8 86:9,9 97:13,14 99:10 124:1 wrap 34:5 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

Washington DC 

Volume 1 

146 

9 

www.nealrgross.com 
147 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Aero Micronesia 

Before: US DOT/OH 

Date: 12-01-14 

Place: Honolulu, Hi 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

(202) 234-4433 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com