# Date: March 27, 2015

**Case:** The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces

Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Phone: 202-347-3700 Fax: 202-737-3638 Email: info@acefederal.com Internet: www.acefederal.comThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY PUBLIC MEETING THE ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS FOR RESIDENTIAL FURNACES

U.S. Department of Energy 1000 Independence Ave. SW Washington, DC 20585 Room No. 8E-089

Friday, March 27, 2015

9:00 A.M.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## Appearances for Department of Energy Meeting 2 3 

## John Cymbalsky, DOE 4 

## Ashley Armstrong, DOE 5 

## Dan Cohen, DOE 6 

## Eric Stas, DOE 7 

## Michael Kido, DOE 8 

## Francine Pinto, DOE 9 

## Johanna Hariharan, DOE 10 

## Doug Brookman, Public Solutions, -- Moderator 11 

## Timothy Ballo, Attorney, EarthJustice 12 

## Donald M. Brundage, Southern Company 13 

## Adam Darlington, Navigant 14 

## Andrew deLaski, ASAP 15 

## S. Craig Drumheller, NAHB 16 

## Rachel Feinstein, HPBA 17 

## Victor Franco, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory 18 

## John Hodges, Wiley Rein 19 

## Diane M. Jacobs, Rheem 20 

## Rebecca Kern, Bloomberg 21 

## Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar 22 

## Sue Kristjansson, SempraThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## APPEARANCES (CONTINUED:) 2 3 

## Daniel Lapato, American Public Gas Association 4 

## Neil P. Leslie, GTI 5 

## Frank V. Maisano, PRG 6 

## Michael J. McCabe 7 

## Samuel McClive, Navigant 8 

## Charles McCrudden, ACCA 9 

## Caroline McLean, AGL Resources 10 

## Sarah A. Medepalli, ICF International 11 

## Jonathan Melchi, HARDI 12 

## Karen Meyers, Rheem 13 

## William T. Miller, McCarter & English 14 

## Michael Rivest, Navigant 15 

## Steven J. Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute 16 

## Aniruddh Roy, Goodman 17 

## Robin Roy, NRDC 18 

## Harvey Sachs, ACEEE 19 

## Dave Schryver, American Public Gas Association 20 

## Amy Shepherd, AHRI 21 

## Frank Stanonik, AHRI 22 

## Rusty Tharp, GoodmanThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## APPEARANCES (CONTINUED:) 2 3 

## James T. VerShaw, Ingersoll Rand 4 

## Peeter Vesik, ECCO 5 

## Charles R. White, PHCC 6 

## Dave Winningham, ALLIED Air Enterprises 7 

## Kathryn Clay, American Gas Association 8 

## Rosalyn Cochrane, NRCAN 9 

## Chuck Foster, EEI 10 

## Marshall Hunt, PG & E 11 

## Mark Krebs, LACLEDE Group 12 

## Douglas Rathbun, DOJ-ATR 13 

## Gregory Rosenquist, LBNL 14 

## David Schroeder 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### P R O C E E D I N G S 2 

### (9:09 a.m.) 3 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay please take your seats 4 

### we are going to begin. Good morning, everyone. Welcome. 5 

### Nice to see you here on a rainy day in Washington, 6 

### D.C. This is an Energy Conservation Standards 7 

### Workshop, a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking Meeting for 8 

### Furnaces. Today is March 27, 2015 here in the 9 

### Forrestal Building in Washington. Glad to have you 10 

### here this morning, nice to see such a nice turn out. 11 

### My name is Doug Brookman, Public Solutions, 12 

### Baltimore. We are going to start this morning 13 

### immediately with introductions. So looking to my 14 

### immediate left, and we can get used to turning the 15 

### microphones on and off, name and organizational 16 

### affiliation. 17 

### MR. MILLER: William Miller, General 18 

### Counsel for the American Public Gas Association. 19 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, Air 20 

### Conditioning, Heating & Refrigeration Institute. 21 

### MR. VERSHAW: Jim VerShaw, Ingersoll Rand. 22 

### MR. WHITE: Chuck White, former contractorThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## working for the Plumbing, Heating and Cooling 2 

## Contractors Association. 3 

## MR. MEYERS: Karen Meyers, Rheem. 4 

## MR. SCHROEDER: Dave Schroeder, consultant 5 

## with GTI. 6 

## MR. LESLIE: Neil Leslie, Gas Technology 7 

## Institute. 8 

## MR. HODGES: John Hodges, Wiley Rein for 9 

## the National Propane Gas Association. 10 

## MR. KREBS: Mark Krebs, the Laclede Group. 11 

## MR. WINNINGHAM: Dave Winningham, Allied 12 

## Air. 13 

## MR. SCHRYVER: Dave Schryver, American 14 

## Public Gas Association. 15 

## MS. MCLEAN: Caroline McLean, AGL 16 

## Resources. 17 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 18 

## Electric Institute. 19 

## MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, Pacific Gas and 20 

## Electric. 21 

## MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, American Council 22 

## for an Energy Efficient Economy.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MS. CLAY: Kathryn Clay, American Gas 2 

## Association. 3 

## MR. ROY: Robin Roy, Natural Resources 4 

## Defense Council. 5 

## MR. COHEN: Dan Cohen, General Counsel's 6 

## Office, DOE. 7 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, DOE. 8 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE. 9 

## MR. LAU: Christopher Lau, Navigant. 10 

## MS. PINTO: Francine Pinto, General 11 

## Counsel's Office. 12 

## MS. HARIHARAN: Johanna Hariharan, General 13 

## Counsel's Office. 14 

## MR. STAS: Eric Stas, General Counsel's 15 

## Office. 16 

## MR. FRANCO: Victor Franco, Lawrence 17 

## Berkeley National Laboratory. 18 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist, Lawrence 19 

## Berkeley National Laboratory. 20 

## MR. DARLINGTON: Adam Darlington, 21 

## Navigant. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: And we'd like to haveThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## introductions from everyone else as well, starting 2 

## with Mike Rivest. Just say your name out loud. As a 3 

## matter of courtesy, I think we should all introduce 4 

## ourselves. This will not be recorded, just stand and 5 

## say your name please. 6 

## (Introductions off mic) 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay well thank you and 8 

## welcome again, nice to see you here for an early 9 

## start on the day. All of you I hope received a 10 

## packet of information that will be our principal 11 

## resource for both presentation and comment and 12 

## organization as we go through the meeting today. If 13 

## you look on slide 7 in your packet, there is kind of a 14 

## general agenda. Immediately following this agenda 15 

## review are some preliminary slides on the purpose of 16 

## the meeting, regulatory history and the like. There is 17 

## an opportunity for opening remarks, brief summary 18 

## comments here at the outset, hopefully nothing too 19 

## terribly extensive at the opening but brief opening 20 

## remarks from anybody that wishes to do so. 21 

## Moving on from there we will have some 22 

## overview slides and from there engineering analysis,The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### and then we will take a break mid-morning around 2 

### 10:30 or so. Whenever we get to the break, we will take 3 

### it; probably around about life-cycle cost 4 

### analysis and subgroup analysis; somewhere in there. 5 

### We will then proceed with the shipments model, 6 

### NIA, and RIA. We will take lunch midday around about 7 

### noon and then MIA, environmental, employment, and 8 

### additional research, and then at the end of the day, 9 

### closing remarks, another opportunity for anybody that 10 

### wishes to make statements. 11 

### This is your opportunity for comment to 12 

### make sure everything you need to say gets covered 13 

### during the course of the day today; so that's yet 14 

### another opportunity for you to comment at the end of 15 

### the day, okay? 16 

### We are going to have some introductory 17 

### slides and hear from John 18 

### Cymbalsky. 19 

### MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you Doug; welcome 20 

### everyone. I'm glad to see such a big turnout for 21 

### this very important rule. We have been at this rule 22 

### for a little bit. Just to give a little history on whatThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### we have done up until this point: So back in September 2 

### we released the analytical tools and a bunch of data 3 

### that supported the numbers you see today in the 4 

### proposal. We had a public meeting to increase the 5 

### transparency of what we do in our analytical tools to 6 

### show stakeholders how to use those tools, and I have 7 

### to say, that meeting to me was very successful because 8 

### the comments and the questions that we received ahead 9 

### of this meeting, to me prove that that meeting was 10 

### useful because whoever submitted the questions 11 

### through AGA and APGA I think did a great job of 12 

### understanding the spreadsheets and asking some very 13 

### key questions. 14 

### Those questions helped us actually frame 15 

### our presentation today, so as we go through, we are 16 

### going to do our best to flag these questions in the 17 

### presentation, and I would ask those who submitted 18 

### questions ahead of time to please make sure that when 19 

### we are on that slide and we flag it that we answer your 20 

### question 21 

### because clearly that is what we want to do here; we 22 

### want to answer everybody's questions to the best ofThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## our ability here. 2 

## Some of the questions you know related to 3 

## how this rule is different than the 2011 DFR 4 

## [direct final rule]; we are going to show as much data 5 

## and comparison as we can with that. 6 

## For example, the furnace fan rule that was 7 

## finalized last summer comes into play here because 8 

## the performance of an X13 motor essentially will be 9 

## in a baseline furnace come 2021 when this rule would 10 

## need compliance. So things like that have a lot to 11 

## do with the changes in the numbers and such, and we 12 

## are going to go through all of that data as we go 13 

## through the meeting. 14 

## We also met over the past few years; we 15 

## have had lots of ex parte meetings with lots of 16 

## different stakeholders. Again, the transparency issues 17 

## that I think we have addressed here today were 18 

## brought up. Very complicated issues with this rule 19 

## including installation cost, venting issues, fuel 20 

## switching, and so based on that really good public 21 

## comment, we actually, I think, did a great job in 22 

## building models and analysis to deal with these veryThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### important issues for this product. 2 

### And so we are going to go through them 3 

### today. We know AGA and others have done their own 4 

### analysis; we are going to compare what we did with 5 

### what you all did to try to understand those key 6 

### differences as we go through. 7 

### And then I would just like to add, and I 8 

### know that there are remarks by AGA and APGA, you know, that 9 

### talk 10 

### about efficiency and how important it is to both them 11 

### and DOE. I'm happy to say in our research we found 12 

### over 50 different gas utilities offering rebate 13 

### programs to advance condensing furnaces into homes. 14 

### There's over 150 different unique programs 15 

### across the country that are doing this, and so we feel 16 

### we are partnered in advancing energy efficiency, and 17 

### we are happy that utilities and other organizations 18 

### are pursuing the same goals as us, and so with that 19 

### let's turn it over to opening remarks from whoever. 20 

### I know we have received a few ahead of time, and I'm 21 

### sure there're others, so we will pass it off. 22 

### MR. BROOKMAN: There's one more small bitThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### of preliminary business. I would ask for your 2 

### consideration. Please speak one at a time and say 3 

### your name for the record as you need to. There will 4 

### be a complete transcript of this meeting made 5 

### available, so I think you know, if you could, share the 6 

### air time and be concise. 7 

### If you haven't turned your cell phones on 8 

### silent mode, please do so, and webinar participants we 9 

### welcome you. The Department of Energy is trying hard 10 

### to make these meetings totally accessible via the 11 

### web. Please leave your telephone on mute so we don't 12 

### get feedback here in the room, and raise your hand to 13 

### participate in this conversation here. We will 14 

### unmute you. We should be able to hear you, and you 15 

### can join in the conversation in real time. 16 

### So now let's proceed with opening remarks. 17 

### I have received a request to let Dave Schryver go 18 

### first. Microphone on? 19 

### MR. SCHRYVER: Okay, thank you. My name is 20 

### Dave Schryver, I am the Executive Vice President of 21 

### the American Public Gas Association. We appreciate 22 

### this opportunity to make this brief openingThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### statement. APGA submitted its complete preliminary 2 

### comments to DOE a week ago, and we request that those 3 

### comments, including the questions appended thereto, be 4 

### asserted into this record of this proceeding. 5 

### My opening statement will simply highlight 6 

### some of the points made in those comments. APGA is 7 

### the national association for publicly-owned natural 8 

### gas distribution systems. There are approximately 9 

### 1,000 public gas systems in 37 States, and over 700 of 10 

### those systems are APGA members. Publicly-owned gas 11 

### systems are not-for-profit, retail distribution 12 

### entities owned by and accountable to the citizens 13 

### they serve. 14 

### They include municipal gas distribution 15 

### systems, public utility districts, county districts, 16 

### and other public agencies that have natural gas 17 

### distribution facilities. APGA, whose members are 18 

### predominantly located in southern tier States, is 19 

### concerned that the NOPR, by eliminating non-condensing 20 

### furnaces from the marketplace, is, among other things, 21 

### taking away customer choice, discriminating against 22 

### low-income persons, and participating in fuel switchingThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## to less efficient energy alternatives, all to the 2 

## detriment of the American public. 3 

## By proposing a nationwide 92% efficiency 4 

## standard for non-weatherized gas furnaces, our concern 5 

## is that DOE has made many of the same errors that 6 

## affected the 2011 direct final rule proceeding, 7 

## including as examples: a lack of transparency, failure 8 

## to recognize non-condensing furnaces as a separate 9 

## product class, failure to account properly for fuel 10 

## switching, reliance on proprietary data, data 11 

## averaging, et cetera. 12 

## Of course, until the transparency issue is 13 

## satisfactorily addressed, APGA and the other 14 

## interested parties that care about compliance with 15 

## the Energy Policy and Conservation Act are precluded 16 

## from meaningfully participating in this proceeding 17 

## and from informing the record of the seriousness of 18 

## the problems that may render the NOPR in 19 

## contravention of the EPCA. 20 

## While a prepared statement addresses each 21 

## of the various shortcomings just noted, albeit in 22 

## abbreviated fashion, since we currently do not haveThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### sufficient information to do the necessary analysis 2 

### of the NOPR, I want to focus my remarks on the 3 

### transparency issue as that is really the key to 4 

### understanding the errors that may underline the NOPR. 5 

### I am accompanied by technical experts from 6 

### the Gas Technology Institute, an independent 7 

### non-profit technology organization engaged in 8 

### research and development addressing energy issues. 9 

### GTI has been engaged by APGA and the American Gas 10 

### Association to assist in analyzing the NOPR and its 11 

### technical underpinnings. 12 

### The DOE, in its analysis of life-cycle costs 13 

### and payback periods in the NOPR, relies on a 14 

### spreadsheet model combined with Crystal Ball software 15 

### to account for uncertainty and variability among the 16 

### input variables. 17 

### APGA's experience in the 2011 direct final 18 

### rule proceeding taught us just how complex and opaque 19 

### Crystal Ball software, as used by DOE and its 20 

### contractors, can be. In an effort to understand the 21 

### DOE's use of the Crystal Ball software and 22 

### simplifications, we have, with the assistance of GTI,The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### submitted questions to DOE. 2 

### Prior to the issuance of the NOPR, DOE 3 

### declined to answer the most important of those 4 

### questions on the ground that they were involved with the 5 

### deliberative process and hence could not be answered 6 

### until after the NOPR issued. The NOPR has issued, and 7 

### our questions remain unanswered. Our concern is time 8 

### to comment on the NOPR is quickly dissipating. 9 

### We need answers to our questions as soon 10 

### as possible; hopefully, those may be forthcoming today, 11 

### but in any event no later than April 3rd so that 12 

### meaningful analysis can proceed. Thank you for 13 

### permitting APGA to express its preliminary views on 14 

### the NOPR process. We are hopeful that a meaningful, 15 

### substantive exchange will occur today between the DOE 16 

### technical experts and the representatives from GTI, 17 

### thank you. 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other opening 19 

### statements, comments here at the outset? John? 20 

### MR. HODGES: Yes, John Hodges for the 21 

### National Propane Gas Association, NPGA. NPGA is the 22 

### national trade association representing the U.S.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### propane industry. Its members include small businesses 2 

### and large corporations engaged in the retail 3 

### marketing of propane gas and appliances, producers 4 

### and wholesalers of propane equipment, manufacturers 5 

### and distributors of propane gas appliances and 6 

### equipment, fabricators of propane gas cylinders and 7 

### tanks, and propane transporters. 8 

### With membership of approximately 2,800 9 

### companies in all 50 States, 38 affiliated State or 10 

### regional associations, and members of 19 foreign 11 

### countries, NPGA represents every segment of the 12 

### propane industry. NPGA appreciates DOE's desire to 13 

### advance energy efficiency and conservation in 14 

### relation to residential furnaces, but is concerned 15 

### that the proposed rule may well have a negative 16 

### impact on the residential furnace market, both for 17 

### consumers and for fuel suppliers such as retail 18 

### propane marketers. 19 

### For example, furnaces with a required 92% 20 

### AFUE would result in positive pressure in the venting 21 

### systems, thus prohibiting direct replacement for an 22 

### existing natural draft furnace or entered an existingThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### application such as when a furnace and gas water 2 

### heater are commonly vented into a masonry chimney. A 3 

### 92% AFUE furnace would also need a dedicated vent 4 

### discharged to an appropriate outside area that may 5 

### not be within close proximity to an existing furnace. 6 

### Any of these circumstances would add both 7 

### cost to reconfigure the venting system and potential 8 

### safety concerns if in the case of an orphaned water 9 

### heater, the water heater vent is not properly sized. 10 

### These could well be deemed unacceptable in the 11 

### marketplace, and we are concerned that the proposal, if 12 

### finalized, would result in a significant percentage of 13 

### fuel switching by furnace owners. 14 

### Suffice it to say, the propane industry 15 

### shares many of the same concerns as the natural gas 16 

### industry. NPGA continues to analyze the proposal and 17 

### will provide more detailed written comments by the 18 

### deadline. Thank you. 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments here? 20 

### Yes please, Kathryn? 21 

### MS. CLAY: Good morning, my name is Kathryn 22 

### Clay. I'm the Vice-President for Policy Strategy withThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### the American Gas Association, and we appreciate the 2 

### opportunity to be here today to present our views on 3 

### the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on Energy 4 

### Conservation Standards for Residential Furnaces. 5 

### AGA and its member companies, as John noted, 6 

### are strong advocates for energy efficiency in all 7 

### direct use applications of natural gas. Nationally, 8 

### natural gas utility-supported energy efficiency 9 

### programs had investments exceeding 1.1 billion 10 

### dollars in both 2012 and 2013, and AGA member 11 

### companies reported budgets of 1.4 billion for energy 12 

### efficiency programs in 2014. 13 

### Through these energy efficiency 14 

### investments, AGA members have helped customers save 15 

### 151 trillion BTU of energy, and offset 7.9 million 16 

### metric tons of carbon dioxide in 2013 alone. AGA is 17 

### concerned that the DOE proposal to adopt a national 18 

### 92% AFUE standard for non-weatherized natural gas 19 

### furnaces will have serious negative unintended 20 

### consequences. Our preliminary analysis of the 21 

### information made available to date concerning the 22 

### rule indicates that it will impose significantThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### economic burdens to American consumers while 2 

### providing substantially lower actual energy savings than 3 

### indicated by the DOE technical support documents. 4 

### AGA is also deeply concerned by the 5 

### Department's consistent lack of transparency 6 

### throughout this rulemaking process. In a number of 7 

### critical areas, the Department has obscured the 8 

### assumptions, the data, and the methodologies contained 9 

### in the technical documents in support of this rule. 10 

### Despite written inquiries, questions submitted by AGA 11 

### to the DOE have gone almost completely unanswered. 12 

### This is particularly troubling given the immense 13 

### complexity of the proposed rule and the reliance on 14 

### highly sophisticated and opaque modeling 15 

### methodologies. 16 

### In particular, we are concerned that much 17 

### of the DOE analysis has relied on the methodologies 18 

### that are either proprietary or otherwise outside of 19 

### the public domain, and the Department has failed to 20 

### provide sufficient information needed by AGA due to 21 

### all of these factors for AGA or any member of the 22 

### public to develop a clear understanding of the technicalThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### analysis behind this rulemaking, and, as a result, it is 2 

### impossible to ascertain whether or not this proposed 3 

### rule actually meets the criteria established by EPCA 4 

### for establishing new or amended standards. 5 

### AGA respectfully requests that the 6 

### Department provide all information requested to date, 7 

### especially that that had been previously withheld as 8 

### deliberative, and in light of the complexity and the 9 

### delay in access to the information, we also 10 

### respectfully request an extension in the comment 11 

### period to allow all parties to have suitable time to 12 

### analyze the newly provided information in the context 13 

### of this very complex and sophisticated rule. 14 

### AGA, though, has moved forward to review the 15 

### alluded information that has been made available in 16 

### the work referred to by APGA, and we have worked in 17 

### concert with APGA to hire GTI to help us make sense 18 

### of these very complex technical documents, and based 19 

### on our preliminary understanding from the work to 20 

### date, we believe that DOE's economic analysis 21 

### significantly underestimates the cost to consumers 22 

### and the other adverse impacts that the amendedThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### standards would impose. 2 

### We are concerned that the 92% AFUE 3 

### proposed standards would impose burdensome costs and 4 

### potentially costs and in fact environmental negative 5 

### consequences due to fuel switching and other factors. 6 

### Even according to the Department's own analysis, the 7 

### majority of affected households would see no benefit, 8 

### some of them bearing higher net costs under the 9 

### proposed rule. It is especially objectionable that 10 

### this rule would place an undue burden on the low11 

### income consumers who will be unable to overcome the 12 

### initial barriers presented by the higher unit costs 13 

### of condensing furnaces or costs needed for renovations to 14 

### retrofit a condensing furnace if at all possible. 15 

### According to DOE's analysis, 20% of 16 

### households nationwide would see a net life-cycle cost 17 

### increase; 31% of consumers in the southern region 18 

### would experience net life-cycle cost increases, and, in 19 

### particular, again, low-income consumers would be 20 

### disproportionately affected. For example, 39% of low21 

### income consumers in the south, according to DOE, would 22 

### bear net life-cycle cost increases. EPCA is intendedThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## to be a pro-consumer statute, and a proposed standard 2 

## such as this that makes many consumers worse off 3 

## should be reasonably reconsidered and should not be 4 

## reasonably considered to be economically justified. 5 

## I would like to note briefly some of the 6 

## major areas in the technical analysis that we believe, 7 

## with proper reconsideration, would actually make these 8 

## numbers and impacts on consumers even worse. Working 9 

## with GTI and our initial understanding to date of the 10 

## technical impacts, we note the following deficiencies 11 

## in the DOE analysis. 12 

## First, DOE underestimates the adverse 13 

## effects of fuel switching as consumers are forced 14 

## away from natural gas options to less-efficient 15 

## heating choices. 16 

## Secondly, we are concerned that DOE 17 

## overestimates product lifetime using significantly 18 

## higher estimates of 21.5 years, significantly higher 19 

## than industry-accepted estimates of 15 to 16 years. 20 

## Also, the Department over-estimates the size of the 21 

## affected market. The impact of this, of course, is 22 

## that by over-estimating the size of the market, itThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## also tends to inflate the projected benefits of the 2 

## rule. 3 

## And, finally, DOE uses unexplained and 4 

## inconsistent installation costs in its life-cycle cost 5 

## analysis. Particularly troubling, these are, on their 6 

## face, substantially different than some of the numbers 7 

## used in 2011; no citations or explanations for such 8 

## drastic changes in the numbers have been included -- 9 

## why these numbers would change so dramatically over a 10 

## 3-year period. 11 

## In closing, we hope that the Department 12 

## will act quickly to address these needs and the needs 13 

## of the public by supplying full access to its data 14 

## assumptions and methodologies. This is foundational 15 

## to our ability to assess the full implications of 16 

## this proposed rule in any meaningful way. Thank you 17 

## for the opportunity to comment, and I look forward to 18 

## the discussion. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Additional 20 

## comments here at the outset? Andrew, Andrew deLaski. 21 

## MR. DELASKI: Andrew deLaski, Appliance 22 

## Standards Awareness Project. Based on the coalitionThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### project, I know many of you. We work with a coalition 2 

### of energy efficiency advocates, environmental groups, 3 

### consumer groups, also with representatives from State 4 

### government in the utility sector. We are active in 5 

### many of these proceedings for advancing energy 6 

### efficiency standards. 7 

### We have been active in each of the prior 8 

### steps of this rulemaking as well. I want to first in 9 

### this opening comment, I want to thank DOE for sticking 10 

### with the schedule outlined by the settlement in the 11 

### APGA litigation, so DOE has, as far as I can tell, done 12 

### a very nice job of proceeding with this process as 13 

### anticipated by the requirements of the settlement and 14 

### doing a working group last fall to give folks an early look 15 

### at the analysis, holding a public workshop that was a 16 

### very good and constructive step in publishing 17 

### multiple analyses in support of the NOPR. 18 

### I actually found it quite clear the 19 

### material that has been published, and I think DOE has 20 

### really gone beyond the usual steps to provide a level 21 

### of transparency for stakeholders to be able to 22 

### understand the analysis. Now, I understand peopleThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## have questions, and I hope the Department will answer 2 

## those questions to the full extent that you are able 3 

## to while complying with the law, and I expect that you 4 

## will. 5 

## I don't know if that was typically what 6 

## you do, but I don't see why it would be different in 7 

## this docket, and I hope that today we can continue the 8 

## kind of frank exchange that we have been having to 9 

## answer those questions, and I hope they can be 10 

## answered because I think that will help everybody to 11 

## understand what the analysis shows. 12 

## I also want to thank all the stakeholders 13 

## in the room. This has been a long process, and we have 14 

## had a lot of public meetings over the years. This is 15 

## the biggest one so far. I mean, it's not surprising to 16 

## me to see a lot of folks from the gas industry here. 17 

## This standard will save more natural gas 18 

## than any other standard ever issued by the Department, 19 

## so it is natural that the natural gas industry is 20 

## here in force to participate because it is going to 21 

## save a ton of gas. The closest rule is the water 22 

## heater rule from 2000.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### So it saves a ton of gas, that's a good 2 

### thing for consumers; it's a good thing for the 3 

### environment, and that is something that we support. I 4 

### want to also say a couple of things about the process 5 

### up until now. There has been a lot of collaboration, 6 

### as everybody in this room knows. We, the advocates, and 7 

### AHRI came up with a proposal for a joint 8 

### recommendation for a standard that was adopted by the 9 

### Department, and that collaboration, that was very 10 

### constructive. 11 

### It ultimately was overturned by litigation, 12 

### but it was a good collaborative relationship, one that 13 

### has been continued since then in open and frank 14 

### discussions. So there also was good collaboration 15 

### with AGA in developing an approach to address what 16 

### was described to us as the small number of consumers 17 

### who faced very high costs and certain specific 18 

### circumstances, and we came up jointly with a proposal 19 

### for waivers that we will share with the Department, 20 

### but ultimately that process came up against the 21 

### shoals of the litigation. 22 

### So that collaboration, I thought, was quiteThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## constructive and would have addressed some of the 2 

## narrow concerns raised by the gas industry. So I 3 

## hope that we can continue the kind of collaborative 4 

## discussions both today and after today that have 5 

## helped folks to wrap their minds creatively around 6 

## the opportunity to achieve large savings with new 7 

## natural gas furnace standards. 8 

## It's my hope and my expectation that 9 

## ultimately we will be able to arrive at a final 10 

## standard, which is due I think next year, the end of 11 

## next March, that will achieve at least the savings 12 

## that are expected by the proposed rule, and I expect 13 

## that by collaborating, working together, we can 14 

## increase those savings. We can arrive at a solution 15 

## that would be even more favorable, and precisely how 16 

## that is to be done I think depends on the creativity 17 

## and the goodwill and the ability of the folks in this 18 

## room to work together to address and identify the 19 

## narrow concerns and to address them. 20 

## With respect to the proposed rule, we 21 

## support it. We think it is a good solution. 92% 22 

## AFUE nationally, as I said, it saves more natural gasThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### than any standard in the DOE's history. The net 2 

### savings is 3.1 quads over a thirty-year analysis 3 

### period, most of that in natural gas, but that includes the 4 5 

### 30 6 7 

### standby electricity consumption savings, with a net 8 

### present value that benefits consumers at 3.1 to 16.1 9 

### billion dollars depending on the discount rate that 10 

### you use. 11 

### We know that the higher level of 95% would 12 

### yield even more savings and also be more, more net 13 

### savings economically for consumers. The net energy 14 

### savings would rise to 4.4 quads, and the NPV would 15 

### rise by 5 billion to almost 25 billion dollars in net 16 

### present value savings to consumers over the analysis 17 

### period. These are enormous savings, energy savings 18 

### and economic savings. 19 

### We have only begun our review of DOE's 20 

### technical analysis. As I said earlier, we have found them 21 

### to be clear, but we have found several items that 22 

### concern us. It's our view that if these items areThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### corrected, we expect that DOE's analysis will show 2 

### that the proposed standards save even more energy and are 3 

### even more cost-effective than DOE has estimated in 4 

### the NOPR documents. 5 

### I'll outline briefly right now some items 6 

### that we think need correction as DOE moves forward to 7 

### a final rule. 8 

### First of all, manufacturer impacts -- DOE 9 

### justifies its decision to go with a 92% standard based 10 

### on the cumulative regulatory burden on manufacturers. 11 

### DOE essentially says in their walk down, if not for 12 

### the cumulative regulatory burden we would go to this; 13 

### 95% looks pretty attractive. We think DOE 14 

### over-estimated manufacturing impacts really in two 15 

### ways. 16 

### First is that the impacts on manufacturers 17 

### are primarily driven by the decline in shipments, but 18 

### where are those shipments going? They are going to 19 

### heat pumps and to electric furnaces. The way DOE 20 

### does the manufacturer impact analysis is that it 21 

### looked at the furnace division of the manufacturers, 22 

### but the manufacturers who make furnaces are the sameThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## exact manufacturers who make heat pumps and electric 2 

## furnaces. 3 

## As we understand it, the economic analysis 4 

## includes the impact on consumers who buy alternative 5 

## equipment. We think the manufacturer impact analysis 6 

## as well should look at the impact across the entire 7 

## spectrum of equipment that is affected. 8 

## The second point is fuel switching. We 9 

## applaud the Department for including fuel switching 10 

## in the analysis. It was something that AGA requested 11 

## that was a priority for AGA, and we appreciate the 12 

## Department has now included fuel switching in the 13 

## analysis. 14 

## We think that you have over-estimated the 15 

## fuel switching, the rate of fuel switching. You use 16 

## a model that depends on evaluating a payback. We 17 

## think that the model is a good approach in terms of 18 

## developing an economic basis for switching; however, 19 

## we think we haven't really accounted for the 20 

## stickiness, the inertia of consumer decision making. 21 

## So if the model was adjusted to account 22 

## for the consumer behavior that people tend to do whatThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## they did before, inertia, we think that you will find 2 

## that the results will show less switching than what 3 

## you have estimated. We would note that the switching 4 

## that has been estimated is about the same as the 5 

## switching that GTI estimated in their materials 6 

## submitted to the Department last fall. 7 

## With that change in the analysis, you will 8 

## see increased savings and also reduced impacts on 9 

## manufacturers. 10 

## Third is learning rates -- we believe the 11 

## Department has understated some of the benefits of the 12 

## learning rates for equipment, really for two reasons. 13 

## First is that the learning rates are based on 14 

## furnaces as a whole as opposed to condensing 15 

## furnaces, and if you look at the learning rate for 16 

## condensing furnaces, you are going to see that you are 17 

## doubling the rate of condensing furnaces faster than 18 

## you are doubling the rate of conventional furnaces or 19 

## furnaces as a whole, so capturing the incremental 20 

## learning rate is the key issue the Department needs 21 

## to grab. 22 

## And the second thing on learning rates isThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## that we think the data is compromised in the years in 2 

## which there are Federal tax credits in effect. With 3 

## that correction, you will find that the learning rates 4 

## will actually increase. 5 

## Fourth, installation costs are 6 

## over-estimated. DOE does not account for new 7 

## technologies; these technologies are described in an 8 

## appendix to the TSD, polypropylene vents. 9 

## Manufacturers like DuraVent and Centrotherm are in 10 

## the market today providing products. These products 11 

## are designed to provide venting solutions for some of 12 

## the various hard-to-vent situations that the gas 13 

## industry has highlighted, and they will have helped to 14 

## reduce the costs for those consumers who face those 15 

## tough installations. 16 

## DOE also needs to apply learning to the 17 

## venting technology and to the practice of venting. 18 

## Fifth, this is a small point, but it 19 

## relates to the stand-by. We think DOE has 20 

## over-estimated the costs on standby. There is a 21 

## discrepancy between the cost of the TSD and NOPR 22 

## which needs to be resolved.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### Sixth, we think DOE's baseline market 2 

### shares for condensing furnaces are too high. We have 3 

### data from a couple of States. We have compared those 4 

### to the data the Department has published, and those 5 

### costs -- the rate of condensing in existing States -- is 6 

### not as high as the Department has shown it to be in 7 

### the analysis. We have data from the northwest that 8 

### shows it to be different than what you have shown. I 9 

### am surprised to see West Virginia is projected at 95% 10 

### condensing; that doesn't strike me as correct, 11 

### particularly when bordering States are lower. 12 

### We think the market continues to be first13 

### cost-driven in many States and that that will lead to 14 

### a lower rate of condensing than what the Department has 15 

### projected. 16 

### And then, seventh and finally, we think the 17 

### Department has not accurately estimated the 18 

### distribution of efficiency post-standard. The 19 

### Department has done a very nice job of showing the 20 

### distribution of efficiency among condensing products 21 

### today, and I was pleasantly surprised to see that the 22 

### most common choice for a condensing furnace inThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## northern replacements is a 95% furnace; yet the 2 

## Department assumes that everybody who would have 3 

## bought something below the standard, buys precisely 4 

## the standard, a roll-up scenario, is a common problem 5 

## of these rulemakings. 6 

## We think a more realistic assumption is 7 

## that consumers will -- it will be a selection of 8 

## condensing values above the standard that is 9 

## ultimately selected and that results in a different 10 

## estimate than what the Department has shown. The 11 

## Department often does this type of scenario in its 12 

## analyses, and we think it should be used as the 13 

## default scenario in this project. 14 

## So thanks for the opportunity to 15 

## participate, I look forward to ongoing discussions, 16 

## and I will continue to participate in this important 17 

## rulemaking. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Yes, Robin 19 

## please. 20 

## MR. ROY: Robin Roy, Natural Resource 21 

## Defense Council. We have been long supporters from 22 

## the very beginning of the Federal Energy EfficiencyThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### Standards/Appliance Energy Standards. We have worked 2 

### on a lot of them, and we continue to work on them, and 3 

### we are really thankful for the program, and it's 4 

### delivered for environmental and consumer outcomes. 5 

### Great energy savings and great results 6 

### generally -- this particular standard has been a long 7 

### time coming. It's been almost a tortured path, and we 8 

### are looking forward to an effective and as timely as 9 

### possible resolution. I also say we work a lot on the 10 

### other approaches, other tools in the portfolio for 11 

### energy efficiency for consumer and environmental 12 

### benefits, supporting State and utility programs for 13 

### energy efficiency. 14 

### We are very thankful of AGA and its 15 

### members energy efficiency programs, the 1.4 billion 16 

### dollars I think is very effective, and I would love to 17 

### see it. It's a fantastic set of tools. Interesting 18 

### in this case, there continues to be even with those 19 

### programs, there continues to be an opportunity, actually 20 

### a need for efficiency standards for furnaces. Only if 21 

### we had had a few more of those utility programs, a 22 

### bit more intensely funded, then maybe we wouldn't beThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## sitting here, but such is the case. 2 

## There is a large amount of efficiency 3 

## opportunity that is economic. We haven't heard 4 

## anybody suggest otherwise. NRDC has been working 5 

## very intensely on this particular rulemaking over 6 

## these last few years. We had been talking to many 7 

## stakeholders. We were very keen to work in that group 8 

## that Andrew mentioned a moment ago to develop a 9 

## waiver process that was really targeted to address 10 

## this issue, which had been raised so many times in our 11 

## discussions, of the most hardest effected small 12 

## subset typically associated with difficult 13 

## installation costs, and I am delighted to see some 14 

## work and an opportunity to drive down some of those 15 

## tough installation challenges, and that's very 16 

## encouraging, and we continue to be really interested 17 

## in that part of it. 18 

## We recognize that there is a continued 19 

## deep concern about households that may be worse off 20 

## by several hundred dollars, and that's what it looks 21 

## like from the analysis -- it's not in this package 22 

## here today, but you would see it in the technicalThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### support document in figure 8.5.1, for example, that 2 

### shows 5% of households being worse off by several 3 

### hundred dollars. 4 

### We are very interested in what might be 5 

### done to mitigate that and achieve even greater cost6 

### effectiveness from this rule. We are also interested 7 

### in looking at tighter standards, for example a 95% 8 

### might that be brought into effect for appropriate 9 

### households. To those ends, we have been having lots 10 

### of discussions with manufacturers, with utilities, 11 

### with associations, with installers, with other 12 

### efficiency and environment groups. The kinds of 13 

### discussions, I think, that are probably hard for DOE to 14 

### have by the nature of the rulemaking process. 15 

### And those have been really quite 16 

### productive. We have had one-on-one discussions. We 17 

### have had small group discussions, and just a couple of 18 

### weeks ago, we had a terrific meeting with, I don't know, 19 

### about 35 parties from all over the place, and, for 20 

### those in this room who didn't participate, please see 21 

### us because we will continue to have these discussions. 22 

### Let me know if you are interested to see what mightThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### be done, particularly for the issues which have been 2 

### raised before that continue to be raised and are a little 3 

### challenging for this one. 4 

### The 5% tail, I will just use as a shorthand for 5 

### this hard-off -- these worse-off households. We also 6 

### are recognizing, as Katheryn mentioned, that there is a 7 

### moderately or a fairly large subset of households in 8 

### the south for example, 40% or so, that will be worse 9 

### off, maybe not by very much, but something. We are 10 

### interested in seeing if something can be done there 11 

### too, if it's small amounts of money that's 12 

### unfortunate, and we would like to address it as soon 13 

### as possible. 14 

### So we are looking to see what might be 15 

### done with, for lack of a better term, flexibility 16 

### mechanisms. An example, the after-the-fact waiver and 17 

### the enforcement rulemaking from a few years ago that 18 

### several parties in this room proposed and even more 19 

### of the parties in this room discussed and negotiated, 20 

### not all coming to an agreement on it. 21 

### We think it's interesting. We also see 22 

### a regional standard as having some merit. It's a typeThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### of flexibility which DOE has an opportunity to draw on. 2 

### We are very keen on the full array of what might be 3 

### done to make a more cost-effective standard that 4 

### addresses the particular challenges for the worst5 

### affected households. We think there are some paths 6 

### to that end, and we would love to get more discussion 7 

### from DOE on what you might see as the legal or 8 

### practical challenges to them. 9 

### It would be, for example, great to see what 10 

### your view was on the analog, the in-standards as 11 

### opposed to post-standard waiver process. You could 12 

### call it an exemption or something. I am sure there 13 

### has been a fair amount of legal thinking at GC on 14 

### those issues, but we can't glean that from anything in the 15 

### NOPR or the TSD. 16 

### But given the history, I am very 17 

### concerned with those issues. I hope we will see more 18 

### and be able to glean more of what you are thinking 19 

### and see if we can work towards solutions that would 20 

### fit within your view as being legal and enforceable 21 

### and effective. 22 

### Great work, we need to see this done.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### There is too much energy opportunity, too much 2 

### consumer savings, and too much environmental benefit to 3 

### just let this go, so go as quickly as you can to get 4 

### this thing done. 5 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 6 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 7 

### Electric Institute. Again I want to thank the 8 

### Department for having this hearing today. I am going 9 

### to really withhold most of my comments until we get 10 

### to some of the issues that affect the electric 11 

### industry, such as the issue of fuel switching and the 12 

### emissions analysis and national impact analysis. 13 

### But in opening, I just wanted to really say 14 

### I think we are going to have to remember some of the 15 

### context here in terms of competitive markets. Right 16 

### now the standards for heat pumps have gone up twice 17 

### in the last 9 years, the first time from 10 to 13 [SEER] in 18 

### January of 2006, the second time as part of the court 19 

### settlement from 13 to 14 [SEER] and then with corresponding 20 

### level and the HSPF 6.8 to 7.7 in 2006 and now 7.7 to 21 

### 8.2 now. 22 

### Any analysis that is done in terms of fuelThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### switching really needs to take that in account as 2 

### well. The market has shifted, the costs have 3 

### increased on the heat pump side, and by not even 4 

### talking about that, the current analysis is incomplete, 5 

### and I will provide more details later. I look 6 

### forward to the discussion and thank you very much. 7 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, additional 8 

### comments before we launch into this detailed review. 9 

### Frank Stanonik. 10 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I 11 

### haven't prepared comments but just a couple of things 12 

### I do want to bring. First of all, yes, we have been 13 

### involved with a lot of other people trying to find 14 

### the, let's say, the appropriate solution that would be 15 

### acceptable to all parties. I will tell you that the 16 

### proposed level by DOE is not acceptable to AHRI's 17 

### members, and I would also just remind everyone that we 18 

### are looking at the solution that is both saving 19 

### energy and economically justified, and we should not 20 

### forget that second part. 21 

### And the last point I want to raise is that 22 

### we are also looking at the energy that might be savedThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### by a rule in comparison to what energy savings occurs 2 

### in the absence of the rule, and you will see in slides 3 

### and other places, it is, in this case, for a case of 4 

### residential furnaces, unavoidable to notice that, first 5 

### of all, as Steve might mention, there really hasn't 6 

### been a change in the first rule, depending what you 7 

### consider the 80% that comes in November -- if you 8 

### consider that a change okay there's been a change 9 

### coming in, but I would say there really hasn't been a 10 

### change since NAECA, and yet without question, whatever 11 

### the right number is today, certainly the current 12 

### market is about one out of every two furnaces shipped 13 

### to the United States and going into somebody's house 14 

### is a condensing furnace. 15 

### So there is a huge amount of savings that 16 

### the industry has achieved without standards, or 17 

### without changes in the standards, and so as we talk 18 

### about this rule, we need to keep in mind we are 19 

### looking at the savings the rule achieves as opposed 20 

### to what will happen if the industry just goes along 21 

### and deals with incentive programs, deals with getting 22 

### the products where they need to be, where they makeThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### the most economic sense. 2 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you, Susan 3 

### Stantley joining us on online, Susan we are going to 4 

### unmute your phone. Please speak. We haven't heard you 5 

### yet okay. So then maybe she will join us in a 6 

### moment. Additional opening remarks here before we 7 

### get into the details? Okay let's then proceed with 8 

### the slides and back to John Cymbalsky. 9 

### MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay thanks Doug. John 10 

### Cymbalsky, DOE. I am just throwing this up here, this 11 

### is our usual slide that highlights the issues that we 12 

### will be expressly asking for comment on. As we go 13 

### through, you will see these issue boxes, and then we 14 

### will pause at that point for comments from the 15 

### stakeholders. 16 

### Okay so let's get right into the content 17 

### here starting with the regulatory authority. So EPCA of 18 

### 1975 established the Energy Conservation Program for 19 

### Consumer Products Other Than Automobiles, which covers 20 

### the furnaces that we will be discussing here today. 21 

### NAECA 1987, as Frank just mentioned, amended EPCA to 22 

### prescribe the first standards for furnaces, and itThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### directed DOE to conduct two further rulemakings to 2 

### determine whether or not amended standards were 3 

### warranted, and so here we are today. 4 

### EISA 2007 amended EPCA to [require DOE to] review 5 

### standards every six years and also required that standards 6 

### after July 1, 2010 look at standby and off mode. 7 

### Okay, so per the history as I just mentioned, the initial 8 

### standards were established by NAECA in 1987 except 9 

### for small furnaces, and DOE published a final rule on 10 

### November 17, 1989 to set initial standards for small 11 

### furnaces, and you can see the Federal Register cite. 12 

### DOE also published a final rule on 13 

### November 19, 2007 that amended standards for most 14 

### classes of furnaces manufactured on or after November 15 

### 19, 2015, and it did not update standards for mobile 16 

### home oil-fired furnaces and weatherized oil-fired 17 

### furnaces. 18 

### DOE also published the direct final rule 19 

### on June 27, 2011, and it amended the AFUE standards 20 

### for non-weatherized gas furnaces, mobile home gas 21 

### furnaces, and non-weatherized oil furnaces. It 22 

### amended the compliance date but left the existingThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### standards in place for weatherized gas furnaces, and 2 

### it established electrical standby and off mode 3 

### standards for non-weatherized gas furnaces, 4 

### non-weatherized oil furnaces, and electric furnaces. 5 

### So following the 2011 DFR, we have already 6 

### heard a little bit about this in Andrew's opening 7 

### remarks. We went through, and DOE was remanded the rule. 8 

### The court approved a DOE and APGA settlement on April 9 

### 24, 2014. Again, DOE was remanded the rule, and here we are 10 

### in today's proceeding, and, as Andrew mentioned, we are 11 

### proceeding on schedule with the Court's ruling. 12 

### So the current standards for 13 

### non-weatherized gas furnaces and mobile home gas 14 

### furnaces were established by NAECA and were effective 15 

### in 1992 and 1990 respectively. The November 2007 16 

### final rule revised the final AFUE standards, and 17 

### compliance is in November of 2015, and you could see 18 

### those numbers below. 19 

### We had a question from Mark Nayes from 20 

### Southside Heating and Air Conditioning asking about 21 

### what this standard we are talking about would do. So 22 

### it's a manufacturing standard, and his questionThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### related to how would people install 80 AFUE furnaces. 2 

### The standard is on manufacturing, so they would -- the 3 

### manufacturers would not be able to actually make 4 

### those furnaces, so I hope that answers your question. 5 

### The next slide talks about the criteria 6 

### for setting standards, and a lot of people have 7 

### already referred to a few of these in their opening 8 

### remarks using words like technically feasible and 9 

### economically justified, so you could see the 10 

### difference factors in EPCA and how the different DOE 11 

### analyses address each one of these, but just to hit on 12 

### a few you know, there are issues of competition, 13 

### utility, energy savings, operating costs, et cetera. 14 

### So I think the slide deck does a good job 15 

### of going through these today. There is a lot of 16 

### content, a lot of pretty heavy-duty content, but 17 

### hopefully, we will get through all of it. We are going to 18 

### do our best to answer everybody's questions, and as I 19 

### said in the opening, we are going to flag certain 20 

### areas of concern as we go through. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you John. 22 

### Suzanne Stantley I think has joined us again, andThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## Suzanne, we will now unmute your phone. Please say 2 

## your organizational affiliation as well. 3 

## MS. STANTLEY: Good morning, and I will. 4 

## Thank you for the opportunity to speak today on the 5 

## Department of Energy's proposed standard for minimum 6 

## efficiency standards for natural gas furnaces. 7 

## Again my name is Suzanne Stantley, I am the CEO of 8 

## Contractor Advisors Business Development out of 9 

## Chicago, Illinois. I am active in my community, 10 

## working on a daily basis to find ways to increase 11 

## economic viability for minority-owned businesses and 12 

## consistently seeking solutions to create economic 13 

## opportunity. 14 

## I am speaking today on behalf of low15 

## income residents in my community that I believe would 16 

## be hurt by the rule if it is allowed to go into 17 

## effect. As I understand it, energy efficiency 18 

## programs are supposed to help consumers save money on 19 

## energy costs, but this rule will do the opposite, and 20 

## it will impact low-income families hardest. 21 

## The proposed furnace rule would force many 22 

## low-income residents to either pay large amounts forThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## condensing furnaces or switch to more expensive 2 

## electric heating when their existing non-condensing 3 

## furnaces need to be replaced. Non-condensing 4 

## furnaces are in most homes today. 5 

## The Chicago area already suffers from 6 

## higher than national average electricity costs, 7 

## while the city has lower than average natural gas 8 

## costs. Condensing furnaces cost about $350.00 more 9 

## than non-condensing furnaces and can cost an 10 

## additional $1,500 to $2,200 to be installed. Low- and 11 

## moderate-income families throughout Chicago would be 12 

## severely hurt by this rule if more of their household 13 

## income would have to go to pay for basic heating. 14 

## Many of these families will have to make 15 

## hard choices. In addition, the cost increases would 16 

## further deplete an already strained low-income home 17 

## energy assistance program, LAHI funding. Nationally, 18 

## LAHI funding has been reduced 34% from $5.1 billion in 19 

## 2010 to only $3.4 billion in 2015. 20 

## The resulting allotment for Illinois has 21 

## decreased 31% from $232.09 million in 2010 to only 22 

## $165.5 million in 2015. This reduction in LAHIThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## funding has already denied over 89,000 former 2 

## recipients of this desperately needed assistance. 3 

## The new furnace standard proposed by DOE would push 4 

## low-income families toward more costly and less5 

## energy-efficient options like electric resistance 6 

## heating. 7 

## That means heating costs will go up and 8 

## LAHI assistance will be available to even fewer 9 

## families than it is today, and so I am here to ask the 10 

## Department of Energy not to move forward with this 11 

## proposal, as I know the impact it will have on my 12 

## community and those with whom I work on a daily 13 

## basis. 14 

## As an advocate for energy efficiency and 15 

## an advocate for economic opportunity, I urge you to 16 

## find the necessary solutions to achieve energy 17 

## efficiency without causing residents in the 18 

## communities I serve to pay more in monthly heating 19 

## costs and, in the end, operate less-energy-efficient 20 

## furnaces. 21 

## Thank you again for this opportunity to 22 

## speak today.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Now let's 2 

## proceed with the slides and go to the engineering 3 

## analysis. 4 

## MR. DARLINGTON: Good morning, everyone. 5 

## I'm Adam Darlington with Navigant Consulting. I am 6 

## going to go over the rulemaking scope and the 7 

## engineering analysis. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let me make a comment here. 9 

## There's a lot of content in this package here today. 10 

## We need to be, I think, disciplined in the discussion 11 

## segment. We want to hear everything you have to say 12 

## but let's keep a focus here. Okay, let's try and be 13 

## concise with our comments as we go along. Do you 14 

## wish to say something at the outset? 15 

## UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Is this available 16 

## electronically with the DOE webinar? 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So we had that question, 18 

## and I think Alex has emailed a few of them that asked 19 

## for it, but it generally goes into the docket after 20 

## the meeting, yeah. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, now we are going 22 

## to proceed.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### MR. DARLINGTON: All right, with that said, 2 

### we have a lot of ground to cover, so I will go through 3 

### this as quickly as I can, but do feel free to stop me 4 

### if you need to ask any questions. 5 

### So just briefly, the scope -- basically the 6 

### scope of this rulemaking exercise is outlined by 7 

### the definition in EPCA for residential furnace. The key 8 

### points here we are looking at are single-phase electric 9 

### units; I'm sorry -- for units that use electricity, we 10 

### are looking at single-phase units, natural gas 11 

### furnaces, and that have an input rate of 225,000 BTU 12 

### per hour or less, and, I think as was alluded to 13 

### earlier, as a result of the remand agreement, this 14 

### analysis is covering two classes of furnaces and those 15 

### are the non-weatherized gas furnaces and mobile home 16 

### gas furnaces. 17 

### So now I am moving to the engineering 18 

### analysis. The purpose of the engineering analysis is 19 

### to determine how manufacturer costs and selling price 20 

### changes with increasing efficiency. For the analysis 21 

### of AFUE standards, DOE has relied on an efficiency 22 

### level approach, which means that the analysis wasThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## focused on analyzing selected efficiency levels at 2 

## which DOE estimated the manufacturer production costs 3 

## and selling prices. 4 

## DOE used a reverse engineering analysis 5 

## which we will talk through in the coming slides and 6 

## also relied on a variety of information as listed 7 

## here on the slides. So this slide just shows an 8 

## overview of the steps in the engineering analysis, 9 

## starting with inputs from the market and technology 10 

## assessment going from the selection of the efficiency 11 

## levels that DOE is going to analyze all the way 12 

## through to developing industry average, manufacturer 13 

## selling prices, and so we will sort of talk through 14 

## each of these steps in the coming slides, so I won't 15 

## spend too much time here. 16 

## So as mentioned, the first step is 17 

## selecting the efficiency levels for analysis. And so 18 

## this was informed by product efficiency data 19 

## collected during the market assessment. DOE analyzed 20 

## the baseline level, which is 80% for both the 21 

## non-weatherized gas furnace and mobile home gas 22 

## furnace equipment classes.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## There is correspondence on the minimum 2 

## standard that was adopted previously in the 2007 3 

## final rule. DOE also analyzed the max-tech levels, 4 

## which are the most efficient products available, and 5 

## in between these levels, DOE looked at several 6 

## intermediate levels, mainly at the most common 7 

## efficiency levels available on the market, also at 8 

## levels that represent a major change in technology, 9 

## for example the 90% example for non-weatherized gas, 10 

## a big jump from non-condensing to condensing. 11 

## And so the table on this side shows all of 12 

## the efficiency levels that were analyzed as part of 13 

## this analysis. 14 

## So this slide talks about the selection of 15 

## units for the teardown analysis, which is the reverse 16 

## engineering analysis. DOE selected quite a few units, 17 

## as shown in this table at the bottom of the slide. 18 

## The selections span the range of efficiency levels 19 

## analyzed and were focused on the representative input 20 

## capacity of 80,000 BTU per hour; so the models that 21 

## were primarily selected at that input were 22 

## as close as possible, but we did also look atThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### some units above and below that in order to get an 2 

### idea of how the analysis would scale to large and 3 

### smaller units. 4 

### And so at each efficiency level, products 5 

### from multiple manufacturers were chosen for tear down, 6 

### and this allowed for the direct comparison of 7 

### efficiency levels for a given manufacturer, and it 8 

### sort of allowed DOE to key in on the differences in 9 

### designs and the costs which will achieve the 10 

### different efficiency levels. 11 

### So we were able to look at the 12 

### manufacturers specific matched pairs of products 13 

### which represented the cost to increase fuel efficiency. And 14 

### so 15 

### as this slide shows, you know, as I mentioned, quite a 16 

### few units were selected. They were focused around the 17 

### levels that DOE analyzed, so quite a few teardowns at 18 

### 80% which is the baseline, quite a few at 90%, quite 19 

### a few at 92% and 95%,, and then at 98% (max-tech) we had two 20 

### teardowns there, and basically, there were two 21 

### manufacturers producing products there, so we looked 22 

### at both of them at the representative capacity.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### So then, for each teardown, basically what 2 

### DOE does is they physically disassemble the unit 3 

### into its components, log the parts along with the 4 

### materials, dimensions, weights, and manufacturing 5 

### processes to create a spreadsheet of building 6 

### materials. DOE uses the building materials developed 7 

### from the teardown to develop the cost estimate for 8 

### each unit torn down. 9 

### DOE also does manufacturer interviews and 10 

### talks to the manufacturers about its cost estimates 11 

### to get some feedback and get some help with 12 

### calibrating some of these estimates. Yes? 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik? 14 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Adam 15 

### just a quick question. 16 

### MR. DARLINGTON: Sure. 17 

### MR. STANONIK: You said something about 18 

### looking at pairs of something, so I just want to 19 

### confirm that in all of these teardowns, let's say for 20 

### every one of the -- obviously you looked at 8 models of 21 

### rated units at 80%, and I'll just assume there was at 22 

### least one from each major manufacturer.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### Does that mean that you also looked at a 2 

### higher condensing model from the same manufacturer as 3 

### compared to the 80% to look at this pair situation? 4 

### MR. DARLINGTON: Yeah, that's right, and 5 

### that's what we set out to do in order to tell what 6 

### the incremental difference is, so, and then you see a 7 

### little bit of spread here, you know. Obviously, not 8 

### all manufacturers are making the 92%, so for somebody 9 

### with the 93% and compare that to their 80% instead of a 10 

### 92%, so yes, but yes to your question. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Mark? 12 

### MR. KREBS: Mark Krebs with Laclede Group. 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Is your mic on? 14 

### MR. KREBS: Yeah, it is. Since I got here, 15 

### I have always wondered a lot about this teardown 16 

### stuff, you know, all of those units you bought and 17 

### tore down. , I assume you purchased those, correct? 18 

### MR. DARLINGTON: Yes. 19 

### MR. KREBS: Okay, any idea what that cost 20 

### and total amount of man-hours necessary for the tear 21 

### down task? 22 

### MR. DARLINGTON: No, I have never run theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## numbers on that, so I couldn't give you an estimate. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Jim? 3 

## MR. VERSHAW: Jim VerShaw, Ingersoll Rand. 4 

## So you have purchased the furnaces. Did you take the 5 

## purchase price that you paid for those furnaces and 6 

## compare that with what you came up with as an 7 

## estimate for the cost? Did you ever show that? 8 

## MR. DARLINGTON: We don't show that, but it 9 

## is done to sort of calibrate. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Mike Rivest? 11 

## MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest from 12 

## Navigant. I'm the one who has to sign the purchase 13 

## orders. You know, we are not an authorized 14 

## distributor or reseller or Trane carrier, so we end up 15 

## paying very different prices than I did when I was a 16 

## contractor, for example. 17 

## So the prices that we pay are not 18 

## representative of what the distribution chain would 19 

## pay, for example. There's a wide variation of what we 20 

## pay, so we couldn't reasonably compare that to our 21 

## manufacturing costs and make conclusions unless you 22 

## guys would be willing to provide that.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Back to Adam. 2 

### MR. DARLINGTON: All right, so moving on. 3 

### I just want to note here a very important part of 4 

### this. An important issue to note is interplay with the 5 

### furnace fans final rule, which I think John alluded to 6 

### earlier. So as most of you I am sure are aware, DOE 7 

### published the furnace fans final rule in 2014, and the 8 

### compliance date for that is 2019. 9 

### The expected compliance date from this 10 

### rulemaking would be 2021, and so that furnace fan rule 11 

### will already require compliance by the time this one 12 

### would. So on the furnace fan final rule, DOE had 13 

### assumed certain technologies would be needed to be 14 

### implemented to meet those standards, and those are 15 

### listed here on the slide for both product classes. 16 

### And consistent with those assumptions, DOE 17 

### assumed that those technologies were going to be 18 

### implemented at the time this rule takes effect, and, as 19 

### a result, DOE accounted for those costs in the 20 

### baseline efficiency level and higher efficiency 21 

### levels as needed. 22 

### And so just going back to what John saidThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### earlier about the questions APGA had submitted, I 2 

### believe this one is a primary driver and the answer 3 

### to priority question E which was related to the 4 

### difference in total installed cost between the 2011 5 

### analysis and this analysis, and a large factor in that 6 

### was accounting for these technologies used. 7 

### MR. CYMBALSKY: We think this also answers 8 

### question 2, in the section "Questions asked previously and 9 

### not answered by DOE. 10 

### MR. BROOKMAN: And that document John -- 11 

### MR. CYMBALSKY: Is in the docket. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. It just seems like 13 

### the key point here, so additional questions, comments 14 

### related to this slide? Yes sir, please say your 15 

### name. 16 

### MR. SCHRODER: This is Dave Schroder. So 17 

### you are saying that the larger difference between 18 

### 2011 and now is furnace fans? 19 

### MR. DARLINGTON: Yes, that's right as far 20 

### as the total installed costs for the consumer 21 

### changing. I think there are smaller changes, but this 22 

### is the primary driving factor.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### MR. SCHRODER: And why is that change 2 

### larger in the 80% case than in the higher condensing 3 

### cases? 4 

### MR. DARLINGTON: Well, so at the max-tech -- 5 

### this applies equally to 80% to 90% and the 92% and 6 

### the 95%, so as we talk through what we observed design 7 

### changes were at each level, when we talk about that, 8 

### the max-tech is a little bit different, so some of 9 

### these didn't need to be applied there. 10 

### As far as comparing the 80% to the 90% -- 11 

### MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant. Adam, 12 

### you can only speak to the manufacturer sales price, 13 

### not installation costs. 14 

### MR. DARLINGTON: I was going to say as to 15 

### the specific differences for that, you know, if there 16 

### are other differences, we will get to those in the 17 

### installed costs later. 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: If you wish to comment, come 19 

### to the microphone. Make sure it is turned on. Please 20 

### say your name. 21 

### MR. MURPHY: Rich Murphy, American Gas 22 

### Association. Just a follow-up question to the tearThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### 16 down and buildup of the equipment costs and 2 

### ultimately the markups that are applied -- so Mike 3 

### from Navigant had explained that they build-up with 4 

### the manufacturer's cost and really don't have a 5 

### comparison to see how that resonates with what the 6 

### manufacturer's costs are, but that is what is used 7 

### to build up the actual retail price of the 8 

### equipment that having compared how that works against 9 

### what you actually pay for the equipment. 10 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Mike please speak up. 11 

### MR. RIVEST: We will get to that. I mean, 12 

### so we are building it up from the manufacturing cost. 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: That's a dead spot for that 14 

### mic. 15 

### MR. RIVEST: So we will be building this 16 

### up from the manufacturing costs, literally the 17 

### production costs to the manufacturing sales price, and 18 

### then we will be taking it down the distribution chain 19 

### all the way to retailer cost, installed cost, and that 20 

### is -- that will take a few hours as we go through the 21 

### presentation. 22 

### And you know, this is not like a clothesThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### washer, for example where there is readily available 2 

### retail pricing. Even online, a lot of these products 3 

### are sold through dealer networks, and you can't just 4 

### buy a gas furnace necessarily for a lot of these 5 

### brands of things, and I see Karen Meyers has 6 

### something to say about that. 7 

### MS. MEYERS: So a lot of gas furnaces are 8 

### sold through contractors at Home Depot. It is 9 

### available to get pricing that is usually charged 10 

### based upon the installed cost, so that is not an entirely 11 

### accurate statement. 12 

### MR. RIVEST: It's not, well, I don't think 13 

### you can get all brands at Home Depot for example, so 14 

### that would become useful perhaps. 15 

### MS. MEYERS: You can get at least three or four 16 

### brands. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks for the comment, 18 

### Karen, okay. Frank Stanonik? 19 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Adam, 20 

### you indicate here that you are assuming it is going 21 

### to be a two-stage product in the baseline, and for 22 

### some of us who were here yesterday afternoon talkingThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### about revised test procedure, there is certainly some -- 2 

### I will say at this point, some uncertainty as to what 3 

### kind of AFUE number you are going to get out of the 4 

### revised test procedure for two-stage products. Is 5 

### that factored into the analysis -- I mean let me 6 

### rephrase that. 7 

### How can you factor into the analysis what 8 

### the AFUE of this two-stage product will be as the 9 

### baseline when we have a test procedure that is right 10 

### now a little bit fluid and certainly might have some 11 

### effect on what value you get for that particular 12 

### design? 13 

### MR. DARLINGTON: In the test procedure, the 14 

### conclusion was that the impact would be de minimis, so 15 

### we went with that here. As far as the two-stage, I 16 

### think yesterday we heard that sometimes it improves 17 

### efficiency, but sometimes it would actually decrease 18 

### efficiency. It just depends on how the manufacturers 19 

### design it, so yeah, we really assumed that it would be 20 

### the same efficiency. 21 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE. 22 

### I think this gets to our discussion largely yesterdayThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### about that we believe ratings won't change and, 2 

### generally speaking, I think we looked at the you know, 3 

### left that at DOE did some testing. We are going to 4 

### put additional details of that testing that 5 

### underlines that conclusion in the docket as 6 

### requested yesterday, but obviously, we welcome data if 7 

### someone has it that shows that we need to relook at 8 

### that conclusion, but generally speaking, we believe 9 

### that the test procedure proposals that we have made 10 

### will not change the rated values as you see them on 11 

### the market today. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Keep going Adam. 13 

### MR. DARLINGTON: So after developing the 14 

### MPC estimates for the individual units that were torn 15 

### down, the next step was to aggregate the individual 16 

### teardown results into an industry cost-efficiency 17 

### relationship, and at the baseline, DOE used the market18 

### share-weighted average for each manufacturer to come 19 

### up with an industry average baseline cost. 20 

### So based on publicly-available information 21 

### and based on feedback during manufacturer interviews, 22 

### DOE estimated the market shares, and you know, as FrankThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### mentioned earlier in his assumption, we tore down 2 

### quite a few at the baseline and hit pretty much every 3 

### major manufacturer, so we market-share-weighted them 4 

### into an industry average baseline MPC. 5 

### So then at the intermediate levels above 6 

### the baseline, they start at 95% and go up to -- I'm 7 

### sorry, they start at 90% and go to the 95%, and so to 8 

### get to 95, DOE observed that manufacturers pretty much 9 

### universally utilized the secondary condensing heat 10 

### exchanger, and then within that range, typically the 11 

### changes were the size increases to the heat exchanger 12 

### as the driver of the increased efficiency and also 13 

### the increased product costs. 14 

### So within this range, DOE compared the teardown 15 

### results between the intermediate level and the 16 

### baseline for each manufacturer individually, to develop 17 

### manufacturer-specific incremental costs of achieving 18 

### each intermediate efficiency level, so it was almost 19 

### like an individual cost-efficiency relationship for 20 

### each manufacturer, which we then aggregated together to 21 

### get the industry cost, and then at the max-tech, since 22 

### we only had two and because the technology there wasThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### a little bit different, so to get to the max-tech, we 2 

### were looking at the products available on the market. 3 

### It looked like they increased their size, 4 

### and then they also switched to modulating, and so, 5 

### looking at that, we compared the 98% teardowns for the 6 

### two max-tech units to the 95% to see exactly what 7 

### changed in that range as well. 8 

### And we used an average of those two -- a 9 

### weighted average, a market-share-weighted average of 10 

### those two numbers, to come up with the MPC 11 

### estimate at 98%. 12 

### So then for the mobile home gas furnaces, 13 

### DOE also did teardowns of several models to look at 14 

### the differences. Mainly, we were looking for 15 

### differences between the mobile home gas furnaces 16 

### and the non-weatherized gas furnaces. So when we did the 17 

### teardowns of mobile home gas furnaces, we had 18 

### teardowns from manufacturers that made both mobile 19 

### home gas furnaces and non-weatherized gas furnaces, so 20 

### we were looking at comparing the same manufacturer 21 

### with the same efficiency level to see the differences 22 

### between the models and come up with cost estimates.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## So generally, the incremental cost2 

## differences between efficiency levels and the cost 3 

## efficiency trend and the design changes were fairly 4 

## similar, so the differential costs at each level for a 5 

## mobile home furnace as compared to a non-weatherized 6 

## gas furnace were used along with the industry 7 

## cost-efficiency estimates for the non-weatherized gas 8 

## furnaces to come up with estimates for the mobile home 9 

## gas furnaces. 10 

## And the next step was to develop the 11 

## estimate of the manufacturer selling price. So the 12 

## manufacturer selling price is calculated as the 13 

## manufacturer markup times the production cost plus 14 

## the shipping cost. Shipping costs were calculated 15 

## based on assumptions about typical trailer sizes and 16 

## the furnace size at each efficiency level, and those 17 

## are included in the TSD markups. 18 

## Markups are calculated initially based on 19 

## information from SEC 10-Ks for public companies, and 20 

## then they are calibrated based on information provided 21 

## in the manufacturer interviews. And so pretty much, 22 

## the conclusion of this is that DOE estimated theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### manufacturing markup to be 1.34 for non-weatherized 2 

### gas [furnaces] and 1.27 for mobile home gas furnaces. 3 

### And so from there, this is what results 4 

### generally. So as I mentioned earlier, at 80% we have the 5 

### baseline. From 80% to 90%,, you are basically 6 

### adding the condensing secondary heat exchanger, and 7 

### then within the range from 90% to 95%, increasing heat 8 

### exchanger 9 

### size, and above that increasing the heat exchanger size 10 

### even further and then adding modulation. 11 

### And so that brings us to the request for 12 

### comment about the analysis. 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong? 14 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So this leaves -- and I'm 15 

### going to turn it right over to you but you had asked 16 

### a couple of questions, Mark from Laclede, regarding the 17 

### engineering analysis that you submitted beforehand, 18 

### and so we believe the slides that Adam just presented 19 

### more or less answer those questions directly in terms 20 

### of how we did our approach for the teardown 21 

### analysis. 22 

### We had a question as to what pricingThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## technology did DOE use for fan motors in the 2 

## baselines, which was specifically on slide 19, so I 3 

## just wanted to let you know that we answered your 4 

## questions on the previous slide, but should you have 5 

## more, please feel free to note that. 6 

## MR. KREBS: Well thanks for that 7 

## explanation. It really doesn't address my question, 8 

## but I'll deal with that. I have a couple of other 9 

## questions in regard to you, sir. You seem to be the 10 

## guy I should ask about BOM spreadsheets and cost 11 

## models that were referred to in the TSD, but we can't 12 

## seem to locate them, can you help us out? 13 

## MR. DARLINGTON: We don't make those 14 

## publicly available. So when we do our BOM 15 

## spreadsheets, which are the main input to our cost 16 

## estimates, they contain a lot of sensitive 17 

## manufacturing information, so we generally haven't 18 

## made those public. In the TSD, what we try to do, and 19 

## what I have tried to do here, is to sort of describe 20 

## what the changes are and what is driving the cost. 21 

## So if you need something more to feel 22 

## comfortable with, you know, I guess the ability toThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### review this, we can talk about it or just -- we don't 2 

### generally reveal that information. 3 

### MR. KREBS: Would a FOIA request get it? 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Mike Rivest? 5 

### MR. RIVEST: I'm trying to be helpful. 6 

### What is it you need it for? 7 

### MR. KREBS: We need it to verify your 8 

### costs to see how reasonable they are in our opinion 9 

### and -- 10 

### MR. RIVEST: Do you need to know like the 11 

### cost of every component, because when we tear down 12 

### these products, we literally have the cost of every 13 

### single component, screw, nut, and these are real 14 

### products from real manufacturers, and there is a lot 15 

### of intellectual property and -- 16 

### MR. KREBS: Let's cut to the chase here. 17 

### You know my analyst who requested these, Jim Moore 18 

### from the Laclede Group, is listening in on the webinar. 19 

### Let's let him call in the question so I'm the 20 

### interpreter of it, okay. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Are there any other 22 

### questions while he is cuing up here? Any otherThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### questions? We have a comment from Tom Archer from 2 

### Carrier, and his comment is -- is the baseline cost 3 

### utilized in the analysis a two-stage constant 4 

### torque BPM non-condensing versus a two-stage 5 

### constant torque BPM condensing? 6 

### MR. DARLINGTON: Could you read that one 7 

### more time Doug? 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, is the baseline cost 9 

### utilized in the analysis a two-stage constant torque 10 

### BPM non-condensing verses a two-stage constant torque 11 

### BPM condensing? 12 

### MR. DARLINGTON: Yes. 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, yes. Is your guy 14 

### going to call in his questions? 15 

### MR. KREBS: Yes. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Mark Nayes,yes you are 17 

### now unmuted. Please speak. I haven't heard you yet. 18 

### Okay, we are going to keep going, Adam, and maybe he can 19 

### join us in a little bit. Kathryn, please? 20 

### MS. CLAY: Maybe while we are waiting for 21 

### Mark to join us, I can second the remarks made by the 22 

### representative from Laclede. Obviously, this issue ofThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## the cost of the units is absolutely foundational to 2 

## an assessment of whether this rule is economically 3 

## justified. We respectfully request that, given the 4 

## central nature of this question, that all information 5 

## pertaining to that decision simply has to be in the 6 

## public domain for us to be able to reasonably assess 7 

## the validity of that information. 8 

## It seems unreasonable to us that the 9 

## Department would not be willing to provide that. 10 

## Without it, we are not able to assess the rule in a 11 

## meaningful way. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Ashley 13 

## Armstrong? No. We have a couple of additional -- 14 

## I'll go back to Mark since we are on this stream and 15 

## then to you, Andrew. 16 

## MR. KREBS: Jim Moore has his hand up. I 17 

## suggest you answer him. 18 

## MS. ASHLEY: Well, why don't we let Karen 19 

## speak for a second. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Karen, please. 21 

## MS. MEYERS: Karen Meyers with Rheem, and 22 

## we would highly object to all the parts and pieces ofThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### our units being made available. However, should you 2 

### wish to go purchase them and do your own teardown 3 

### analysis, we will be happy to sell you a unit, but you 4 

### cannot expect that a manufacturer is not going to 5 

### object to a complete teardown analysis, essentially 6 

### making our bill of materials available online, many 7 

### of which is covered with patent protection and other 8 

### things such as that. 9 

### So that is to me a completely unreasonable 10 

### request. 11 

### MR. KREBS: Which raises the question, just 12 

### how transparent is this supposed to be? 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Mark, thank you. Now to 14 

### Andrew, I think -- 15 

### MR. DELASKI: Let me just weigh in 16 

### briefly. DOE has published the manufacturer 17 

### production cost. What else do you need to know? Do 18 

### you need to know the cost of each screw? It doesn't 19 

### strike me -- For being transparent, the manufacturer 20 

### production cost is there. The retail price is there. 21 

### That's what affects consumers. 22 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear from Tom Archer.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### Tom, you should now be able to speak. 2 

### MR. ARCHER: The comparison was because if 3 

### there is a two-stage non-condensing BPM product as 4 

### the baseline, no manufacturer sells that today, so I'm 5 

### wondering what teardown got us to the baseline cost 6 

### of that furnace. 7 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Adam. 8 

### MR. DARLINGTON: I missed part of it. 9 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Tom, you need to repeat the 10 

### first half of your question, all of it in fact. 11 

### MR. ARCHER: My question is, if the 12 

### baseline utilized for the analysis is a two-stage 13 

### non-condensing constant-torque BPM furnace, it's 14 

### basically a two-stage X13 80% furnace. No 15 

### manufacturer has that today, so I'm wondering what the 16 

### baseline cost is in order to get from that two-stage 17 

### constant-torque BPM or two-stage X13 80 to a two-stage 18 

### X13 90, and at the same time, we said the minimum is 92, 19 

### so if we go from a furnace that doesn't exist on a 20 

### non-condensing two-stage X13 80 to a two-stage 21 

### condensing 92 X13 that doesn't exist either, so the 22 

### two furnaces that we are tearing down and getting aThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### cost analysis on are not existing by any of the 2 

### manufacturers today. 3 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Adam, can you address that? 4 

### MR. DARLINGTON: Well, yes. So, I mean, the 5 

### way the analysis was done, and I'm not 100% sure that 6 

### that's totally true that no manufacturer makes those, 7 

### but basically, yes, we do have adders, so we added the 8 

### cost of swapping out the components, so basically, if 9 

### you had a PSC motor, you know what's the cost and 10 

### what's the changeover because we looked at 11 

### specifically manufactured products with X13 motors 12 

### and with fully ECM motors to determine the 13 

### difference, not only to the motor but to the controls 14 

### and other components as well. 15 

### And so looking at that incremental cost 16 

### allows us to tabulate the cost, if those components 17 

### were present. 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Karen, do you wish to 19 

### comment here? 20 

### MS. MEYERS: I just would like to comment 21 

### that I disagree with the statement that none of those 22 

### furnaces exist in the market today.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. You 2 

## standing there, would you like to comment? Please say 3 

## your name for the record. 4 

## MS. SHEPHARD: My name is Amy Shephard 5 

## from AHRI, but my comment is not directly on this 6 

## point, so if we want to finish this 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you, Mike 8 

## Rivest? 9 

## MR. RIVIST: Mike Rivest, Navigant. Again 10 

## I wanted to state that we want to be helpful. If the 11 

## request can be scoped to focus on the information 12 

## that is required to make the determination that the 13 

## costs are reasonable -- so for example, the cost of 14 

## the secondary heat exchanger in this case, which seems 15 

## to be an important component, I mean, we can provide 16 

## that in an aggregated way for different products that 17 

## you know we do have serious concerns about -- the 18 

## proprietary nature of the data. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Kathryn? 20 

## MS. CLAY: I would strongly suggest that 21 

## it undermines the integrity of the Department's 22 

## process to be relying on proprietary data. There isThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## a solution here. If you are not able to release the 2 

## data, don't rely on it for the assessment. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, we have a comment from 4 

## Mark Nayes who is joining us online. Mark, hopefully 5 

## you will be unmuted now. 6 

## MR. NAYES: Yes, as far as the cost 7 

## analysis of the breakdown of the furnace, we don't buy 8 

## broken down furnaces. We buy them all assembled 9 

## together already, and our cost on an 80% PSC motor 10 

## furnace can be as low as $350.00. For the 98% ECM 11 

## furnace, it can be anywhere from $1,800.00 on up, 12 

## depending on size. 13 

## We buy from three different manufacturers, 14 

## so we have got a pretty good analysis across the 15 

## spectrum of who makes furnaces. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: And Mark, who do you 17 

## represent? 18 

## MR. NAYES: We are Southside Heating and 19 

## Air Conditioning, Incorporated, out of Bloomington, 20 

## Minnesota. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 22 

## MR. RIVEST: This is MikeThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### Rivest. I think what's been lost in all of this, and 2 

### the primary reason that we couldn't rely entirely on 3 

### rebuild data, is that the volumes that we are talking 4 

### about here shifts the entire market from the current 5 

### minimum standard, so the market right now is a mix of 6 

### 80's and 92's and 95's, and so in this example, 98 7 

### represent 2% of the market. 8 

### In the world where if the minimum standard 9 

### were 98, a 98% AFUE furnace would not cost $1,800.00. 10 

### Everyone would be producing at high volume 98% AFUE. 11 

### The production processes would be optimized, economies of 12 

### scale would come in, so that $1,800.00 price point is 13 

### no longer relevant, so we have to rely on an 14 

### understanding of the technologies of the 15 

### manufacturing processes. That's why this is the type 16 

### of analysis that is required. 17 

### Now, I think there could be useful retailer 18 

### information where the volume's average could collect, 19 

### you know, so Karen's idea of looking at Home Depot is 20 

### certainly valid where there is significant sales 21 

### volume but at 98. 22 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Neil?The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### MR. LESLIE: It raises I guess one of the 2 

### key questions I would have related to some of this, 3 

### and that is at what point do you consider the 4 

### different technology options to be at maturity? 5 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs? 6 

### MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs from 7 

### ACEEE, and what I am sensing here is to force the 8 

### discussion into a blind alley where nothing can be 9 

### done because we are at the intersection of 10 

### proprietary information and demand for increased 11 

### public information and that's in some sort of a NDA, 12 

### non-disclosure agreement. I am sensing, and I hope I 13 

### am wrong, an effort to discredit the entire standard 14 

### setting process for this and other products, rather than 15 

### an effort to explore whether the end result is, 16 

### Andrew's suggestion, the true MPC and the true average 17 

### retail price for volume products, but that's really 18 

### the issue. Thank you. 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong? 20 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So we just have a question 21 

### from the web, and so, Adam, I'm going to read it. It 22 

### comes from Everett Shorey, and he wants to know, howThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### did you extrapolate from your 80,000 BTU unit to 2 

### other sizes, and how did you deal with the larger 3 

### capacities that come out of your further downstream 4 

### analysis? So if you could explain your extrapolation a 5 

### little bit, that would be great. 6 

### MR. DARLINGTON: Yes, as I mentioned during 7 

### the selection of teardowns, we selected units above 8 

### and below our representative capacity as well, so we 9 

### compared those units to the representative capacity -- 10 

### what changed, how things changed, you know, how the 11 

### heat exchanger sizes changed, how the components 12 

### changed, you know, does it need a larger inducer, 13 

### does it use the same inducer fan, et cetera. 14 

### Does the cabinet get larger, and basically 15 

### then what we did was we estimated the cost difference 16 

### to change the size based on which components would 17 

### change in larger and smaller units, so we accounted 18 

### for, you know, if it has a larger cabinet or a smaller 19 

### cabinet, if it has a larger heat exchanger, and which 20 

### components are the same so that when you have a 21 

### changing cost between sizes. So that was basically our 22 

### methodology there to estimate those costs.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### And then they were fed into the LCC so 2 

### MR. BROOKMAN: I'm eager for us to keep 3 

### going as you contemplate your next set of questions. 4 

### Keep going, Adam. 5 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to bring up 6 

### your -- 7 

### MS. SHEPHARD: Yes, I will bring up a point, 8 

### so I can just make it and then step back. And mine 9 

### goes back to Frank's point about the test procedure. 10 

### The DOE Process Rule has certain key elements in it, 11 

### and one of them is the sequence in which the test 12 

### procedures relate to the standards that are being 13 

### developed. 14 

### And in that Process Rule, it says that the 15 

### test procedures will be determined before the NOPR 16 

### stage of the standard, and that's so [that for] the analysis 17 

### that 18 

### is used, we know how you are measuring it. You know 19 

### what the effects are, and I appreciate the conversation/ 20 

### discussion yesterday and additional information that 21 

### is coming out, but when you don't have the measurement 22 

### finalized and that's what you are using to developThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### the standards, there's an increased level of 2 

### uncertainty and, I think, unfairness to folks, and so I 3 

### would encourage that the test procedure for this needs 4 

### to be finalized in accordance with DOE's own Process 5 

### Rule. 6 

### And understanding that we have timelines 7 

### and that those timelines are based on DOE's best 8 

### efforts, we appreciate the work that is being done, 9 

### but it is very important to have that process which 10 

### has been broken down, and [there are] a lot of DOE rules 11 

### where you 12 

### don't have the test procedures correlated in this 13 

### manner. It needs to start now complying with the 14 

### Process Rule where we have that done before we use it 15 

### to analyze these standards. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Mark, do you 17 

### want to follow on? 18 

### MR. KREBS: First of all, what she said. 19 

### Second of all, Jim Moore still has his hand up. I urge 20 

### you to recognize him. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, I didn't receive that. 22 

### Jim, go ahead and speak. I can't hear you. Here we go.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## Now you go. 2 

## MR. MOORE: Many people touched on most of 3 

## my concerns. The one that I think originally was and 4 

## Mark said a little, what mode of pricing did you 5 

## assume? You tore this thing down with a PSC in it, 6 

## and then you came up with some kind of a price for 7 

## these more complicated motors which have maintenance 8 

## issues and high costs, and I was just trying to figure 9 

## out -- I don't even know the price variables -- I was 10 

## trying to figure out what you assumed for the price 11 

## of the fan motors [that] was my original question. 12 

## MR. DARLINGTON: Yeah, Adam -- this is 13 

## Adam, so we -- the prices that we assumed for the fan 14 

## motors, they were based on some of the analysis that 15 

## was done for the furnace fans rule. As I mentioned, 16 

## the requirement for the X13 constant-torque BPM and 17 

## that came out of the furnace fans rule, so those are 18 

## actually available, both in that rule, and, I believe, 19 

## we put a table in the TSD that shows what the cost 20 

## difference would be, so that would be in chapter 5 of 21 

## the TSD. 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So Mark, as a follow up, weThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### will get you the reference you need to look at the 2 

### fan motor pricing to specifically address this 3 

### question, and that should do it. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey? 5 

### MR. SACHS: Thank you. Harvey Sachs, ACEEE, 6 

### and I have a question for Amy -- follow-up for Amy. For 7 

### the manufacturers, would you all prefer that this 8 

### rulemaking were to proceed with the old AFUE rating 9 

### method with its own problems on these units? This is 10 

### being proposed as a patch from the old rating 11 12 

### 86 13 14 

### methods, like the water heater. 15 

### MS. SHEPHARD: Well, I think the key is the 16 

### process part of it. Yes, it should be fixed, and that's 17 

### final, that is, what you use to analyze the standard 18 

### and, I mean, I think that's why the Process Rule came 19 

### out of a very similar situation in the 90's where you 20 

### had a lot of these same issues going on, and I think 21 

### that what we are feeling is that they are still here, 22 

### and the Process Rule is the tool to address it.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again, and you 2 

### are being very skillful at not answering the question 3 

### that I asked. 4 

### MS. SHEPHARD: It should be fixed, and it 5 

### should be fixed for, well I -- as soon as we start 6 

### talking about test procedures, it gets so technical. , I 7 

### always defer to Frank so -- but what I am saying is 8 

### if there are issues that need to be addressed, they 9 

### are addressed. That is [made] final before the NOPR. That 10 

### is 11 

### what is used in the analysis. 12 

### MR. SACHS: It seems to me, and I really 13 

### would -- I certainly don't ask for this now, but I 14 

### really think that we are getting on in years since we 15 

### have had a new gas furnace rule, and the questions 16 

### were, is there something DOE could do that others 17 

### might be happy with, like say, "Gee, we will give you a 18 

### waiver to use the new one on the affected two-stage 19 

### units." 20 

### Is there something that could leave you 21 

### all whole that would not require putting the whole 22 

### rulemaking on hold for another year?The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear from Karen. 2 

### MS. MEYERS: Karen Meyers with Rheem, and I 3 

### think my answer at this point, Harvey, would be no. In 4 

### my opinion, this rulemaking should be -- we should hit 5 

### the pause button on it until the test procedure rule 6 

### is finalized in accordance with what is in the 7 

### statute, so that's the proper way to do it, and that is 8 

### the way we Y,ou know, Rheem itself have several issues 9 

### where this has caught us unaware in the past. 10 

### So I'm speaking for Rheem, not necessarily 11 

### the industry, but we would prefer to see test 12 

### procedures finalized and then the analysis take 13 

### place. 14 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Jim, go ahead. 15 

### MR. VERSHAW: Jim VerShaw, Ingersoll Rand. 16 

### I think if you look at the test procedure and the 17 

### discussions we had yesterday, a lot of work on what 18 

### the difference with the AFUE between the new 19 

### procedure and the old procedure. But when I ask 20 

### questions about what it did to burner operating hours 21 

### and blower run time hours, I didn't get an answer. I 22 

### didn't calculate that, and if you look at life-cycleThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### costs analysis for this thing, especially looking in 2 

### the south, a lot of air conditioning hours, what does 3 

### that do? 4 

### Do we really know what the new procedure 5 

### and if that is more accurate, did they account for 6 

### that when they did the analysis here, and I think we 7 

### really don't have a good answer on that, and that's 8 

### part of this discussion. 9 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I do want to follow up on 10 

### one thing, because one of the things that we did 11 

### clarify yesterday, and I think Victor is going to 12 

### speak to it a little bit further when we get into the 13 

### LCC specifically, was that we did account for it in 14 

### this rule, so it is consistent, and we can provide you 15 

### the information at least with what we assumed in this 16 

### rule for those burner operating hours, and I think you 17 

### noted even yesterday that's what we did in the 18 

### previous rule too, just because it's a better 19 

### reflection of what is currently happening than what 20 

### is our current test procedure. 21 

### So we will get into that a little bit 22 

### later when we get into the LCC because there is a lotThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## of slides going on there and so, but the answer to 2 

## your question is yes, and we did somewhat address that 3 

## yesterday, and we are going to further and completely 4 

## address it today. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Ashley. Mark? 6 

## MR. KREBS: Yeah, I have the same concerns 7 

## about homes in the south, and in doing some research 8 

## on that, I came across two papers from LBNL and the 9 

## lead author, Victor Franco, was in the room, and 10 

## he might be able to elaborate significantly on your 11 

## questions and fill us all in on that issue. Thank 12 

## you. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, we are going. 14 

## MR. DARLINGTON: All right, so we will move 15 

## on. All right, another aspect of this rulemaking is 16 

## the standby and off mode analysis. DOE analyzed a 17 

## single standby mode and off mode standard, and the 18 

## reason for this is that furnaces are typically used 19 

## along with a cooling system during the non-heating 20 

## season, so the furnace wouldn't be completely powered 21 

## off, but it will remain in standby mode for a cooling 22 

## demand, at least for the --The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 2 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 3 

## Electric Institute. Just a couple of quick questions, 4 

## and if it was in the technical support document, 5 

## please forgive me. For these components, what was 6 

## the -- I know you are assuming that the numbers shown 7 

## was energy consumptive combination, what was the 8 

## range of values for the components? 9 

## MR. DARLINGTON: I don't know off the top 10 

## of my head. I could probably look at it and get back 11 

## to you. 12 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, the 13 

## second question I have was when we tested and what 14 

## was the testing equipment accuracy? 15 

## MR. DARLINGTON: I would again have to 16 

## look at that. So we tested in accordance with 17 

## whatever DOE's test procedure is, so I think it 18 

## references the IEC standard, and we used equipment 19 

## within the accuracy. 20 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 21 

## When we get to the next slide I will have some 22 

## follow-ups because I think that's very important inThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### terms of some of the numbers. 2 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: This is 3 

### Ashley from DOE, and like Adam says, we can go back and 4 

### look at those. Typically, we use Yokogawa,Yokogawa but we 5 

### can 6 

### go back and see exactly what we used. 7 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 8 

### Thank you very much, but I really kind of wanted to 9 

### focus in on what the accuracy of the equipment was so that 10 

### I can plus or minus 5% of it or plus or minus -- 11 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: If you look up that actual 12 

### test equipment, it will give you those accuracies that 13 

### will answer your question. 14 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, thank 15 

### you, but okay, I'll make another comment when we get to 16 

### the next slide. Thank you. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, go ahead, Adam. 18 

### MR. DARLINGTON: So going back to what I 19 

### was saying, we did it as a design option approach. DOE 20 

### established a baseline based on product test data 21 

### along with manufacturer feedback, so currently there 22 

### are no ratings, at least that I am aware of, for theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### power consumption in standby mode. So the baseline 2 

### efficiency levels were just defined as the most 3 

### consumptive combination of electrical components for 4 

### the tested furnaces, and then specific design options 5 

### were applied to the baseline in the order of cost 6 

### effectiveness, and here on the side, you can see what 7 

### we found to be the key driver of the standby mode 8 

### consumption, which were: the transformer, if a BPM 9 

### blower motor is present, and, of course, that factors in, 10 

### and then controls and just other standby consumption 11 

### with the unit. 12 

### So total baseline was 11 watts -- so here 13 

### on this slide, we are representing our results 14 

### basically at the baseline and the linear power 15 

### supply and the standard 40 VA transformer. Efficiency 16 

### level 1, adding in a low-loss transformer. 17 

### Efficiency level 2, going to a switching mode power 18 

### supply, and then at efficiency level 3, adding units 19 

### switching on the power supply in the low-loss 20 

### transformer, and that gives you the estimates here of 21 

### what the standby/off mode power consumption would be 22 

### as it compares to the baseline, along with theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### estimates of what that would cost to implement. 2 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 3 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI, and 4 

### here's my point. If whatever the standard test 5 

### equipment accuracy is, let's say it's plus or minus 6 

### five percent, well now we are down to tenths of a 7 

### watt here for this efficiency standard. 9.5 plus or 8 

### minus 5% is now .5 watts, so, and again it also depends 9 

### on the range of products out there. 10 

### You go from efficiency of that baseline to 11 

### efficiency level 2 or 3, and based on the range of the 12 

### accuracy of the test equipment, you may or may not be 13 

### saving any watts whatsoever. Especially going from 14 

### efficiency level 1 to 2, you are talking about a .3 15 

### watt difference. 16 

### And the testing equipment is plus or minus 17 

### 5%. Well, you might be saving electricity; you might not 18 

### be, because there is going to be a range depending on 19 

### the product and depending on the design, so again I 20 

### think when you are talking about such miniscule 21 

### savings, you know, you have to account for something, 22 

### what's happening in the test equipment, and especiallyThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### if there is a lot of baseline equipment, when you talk 2 

### about lost energy consumption, if the typical one on 3 

### the market is already at 9 watts, you know, some people 4 

### might be saying you are spending ten dollars to save 5 

### 0.0 watts, excuse me. Thank you. 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Adam, to the comment box 7 

### please. 8 

### MR. DARLINGTON: So DOE is seeking your 9 

### comment on basically any aspect of the standby mode 10 

### analysis, and what fraction, if any, consumers shut off the 11 

### furnace during the non-heating season. Your comments 12 

### are welcome. 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: And then the second one 14 

### relates to any other issues related to methodology, 15 

### assumption, or results of the standby mode or off mode 16 

### engineering analysis and all of the foregoing slides. 17 

### This would be a good place to register any additional 18 

### thoughts or concerns. Frank Stanonik? 19 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. And 20 

### seeing that sentence, I can't tell you how many times 21 

### about whether consumers shut off during the heating 22 

### season, and I just have a new question. Aren't weThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### really just talking about furnaces that in fact are 2 

### not also driving the air-conditioning system, the 3 

### cooling system? 4 

### Because if you have a furnace, whatever 5 

### percentage of homes have both a furnace and an air 6 

### conditioner, I would say that question doesn't even 7 

### apply because the system will always be on 24/7 365. 8 

### So I guess my point is, is that question really only 9 

### looking at those installations where the household 10 

### only has a furnace, heating and cooling? 11 

### MR. DARLINGTON: So that's our thinking too, 12 

### is that it should be on all the time to be on standby 13 

### for a call for cooling. So the furnace fan standard, I 14 

### don't think it addressed standby mode at all because 15 

### DOE had already proposed back in the 2011 direct 16 

### final rule to cover the standby of the entire furnace, 17 

### so I guess it can be a little confusing because the 18 

### active mode of the furnace fan was covered by the 19 

### furnace fan and stated, whereas the standby mode is 20 

### going to be covered by this. 21 

### So this covers the entire furnace 22 

### regardless of whether it is a furnace only or whetherThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### it is installed with an AC, and the understanding is 2 

### that almost all furnaces would be -- the vast 3 

### majority at least, would be installed with an AC, so 4 

### there would be no distinct off mode. It would be in 5 

### standby mode year around, so that's kind of what we 6 

### were -- 7 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Frank, go ahead. 8 

### MR. STANONIK: I think Adam just said they 9 

### had them, and now I am asking, so why are we asking 10 

### this question then? 11 

### MR. DARLINGTON: Just to confirm to confirm 12 

### our assumption. 13 

### MR. ARMSTRONG: Frank, you can say you 14 

### agree with the Department, it is okay. It is a rarity, 15 

### but yesterday we agreed too. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Kathryn? 17 

### MS. CLAY: As we leave the engineering 18 

### analysis portion, I just wanted to circle back to our 19 

### earlier discussion on costs, and I appreciate Harvey's 20 

### framing of the issue as a balance between protecting 21 

### proprietary information and protecting the right of 22 

### the public to be able to analyze it.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### Call me a crazy optimist, but I just 2 

### can't help to believe that there is a way to solve 3 

### that problem and find a middle ground. I can imagine 4 

### ways of providing some intermediate level of 5 

### information either by chunking components into 6 

### systems so you obscure the individual component 7 

### costs, or the ended averages across costs for 8 

### manufacturers but something in between absolutely 9 

### nothing -- this black box that we are looking at -- and 10 

### full-on proprietary information data to the last 11 

### screw. 12 

### There's got to be some reasonable 13 

### information sharing approach that we could come up 14 

### with working together, and we just appreciate the 15 

### chance to work with you all to find that solution. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong? 17 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Sorry, I think that's 18 

### something that Mike alluded to earlier when he was 19 

### speaking, so I think what would be helpful to the 20 

### Department, or We are definitely willing to work with 21 

### you. Obviously, we want to make our analysis as 22 

### transparent as possible, and we are really in this toThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### get feedback and incorporate that feedback, so to the 2 

### extent that there is certain information that you are 3 

### seeking, like for example, they asked for -- Laclede 4 

### asked for motor pricing, that kind of stuff that we 5 

### used in our analysis on -- I think we would welcome 6 

### that, and if you want to have a conversation further 7 

### with some of the manufacturers about what level of 8 

### aggregate DOE would be comfortable with, and we would 9 

### do it on an aggregate industry basis not on a model 10 

### basis by any means. 11 

### I'm happy to have that conversation, and 12 

### feel free to follow-up. 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional comments? 14 

### Here, Jim, please. 15 

### MR. VERSHAW: Jim VerShaw, Ingersoll Rand. 16 

### You know, I am looking at this switching mode power 17 

### supply that adds $8.00 manufacturer's cost to save 23 18 

### watts or that plus a low-loss transformer for another 19 

### $9.67 to save a watt. As a standalone, would that make 20 

### sense for the consumer? Because that is going to add, 21 

### what, thirty dollars to the homeowner's cost to 22 

### install the furnace, and it goes to a technology thatThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### none of us have experience with in terms of putting 2 

### it in our product. 3 

### And if you have a furnace, the last thing 4 

### you want is some kind of new technology that is going 5 

### to go out when it is 30 below zero up in Minnesota or 6 

### even 18 in Texas. I mean, there [are] a lot of unknowns 7 

### in there to save, and it says it saves a lot but to 8 

### Steve's point, it kind of overlaps. [Are] there really 9 

### savings there, and is it really worth that kind of 10 

### money with that kind of unknown or reliability to put 11 

### that in? That's my feeling on it. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. We are due for a 13 

### break, let's take a break. It's 10:55 by that watch 14 

### up there. Let's take 15 minutes. Just to remind you, I 15 

### think most of you are familiar, please wear your 16 

### badge visible. The restrooms are on both ends of the 17 

### hall. If you are going to go for coffee, it's on the 18 

### ground floor. Go quickly. 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Apologies for starting a 20 

### few minutes later than scheduled. It was truly 21 

### clogged up in the coffee shop. Just waiting to make 22 

### sure everybody got back here before we commence. SoThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### we are going to pick up where we left off and begin 2 

### with the life-cycle cost analysis, and we are going to 3 

### hear from Victor Franco. 4 

### MR. FRANCO: Thank you, good afternoon. 5 

### My name is Victor Franco. I am from Lawrence Berkeley 6 

### National Laboratory, and I will be speaking about the 7 

### life-cycle costs analysis and the subgroup analysis in 8 

### this next section. 9 

### So this slide shows the overall payback 10 

### period and LCC analysis, a flow chart about the 11 

### analysis. Obviously, the analysis is pretty complex 12 

### because of all of the inputs, and I just want to go 13 

### over it a little bit in detail to try to set up the 14 

### discussion for the next few slides. 15 

### So first of all, as we discussed earlier in 16 

### the engineering analysis, we come up with a 17 

### manufacturer cost. We have discussed that already. 18 

### In chapter 6, we describe the markups to determine the 19 

### product prices, and that's how we come up with a 20 

### consumer price. We add this to the installation 21 

### costs, which we will discuss later, to come up with the 22 

### total installed cost.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### In terms of the LCC and payback, we have to 2 

### consider the differential between the base case and 3 

### the standards cases, and that gives us these 4 

### incremental costs, which is the slide above. In the 5 

### bottom cells, we describe the operating costs. 6 

### Chapter 7 describes the energy use characterization 7 

### to determine the energy consumption. We then 8 

### multiply those by the energy prices to come up with 9 

### annual operating costs in terms of energy. 10 

### We also consider repair and maintenance 11 

### costs to come up with the annual operating costs. 12 

### Again, we come up with these incrementals to come up 13 

### with these annual operating cost savings between the 14 

### standard cases and the base cases. Other inputs to 15 

### the LCC analysis include lifetime discount rate and 16 

### energy price trends. 17 

### With this, we come up with a discounted 18 

### lifetime operating cost. The total installed cost 19 

### incrementals and the discounted lifetime operating 20 

### costs are the main inputs into the life-cycle cost. 21 

### The total installed cost and the annual operating cost are 22 

### the main inputs to the payback period.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### In addition to this, we have product 2 

### switching that is incorporated into the LCC analysis. 3 

### That's the box shown right above the payback period 4 

### and life-cycle costs analysis, and we will be 5 

### discussing all of these in subsequent slides. 6 

### First, let me go over a little bit more 7 

### about just the overall LCC calculation. So first, it 8 

### is important to note that the LCC provides an 9 

### economic evaluation from the consumer prospective, so 10 

### that's why we are looking at this in terms of 11 

### household by household or furnace by furnace. 12 

### The life-cycle cost is a total consumer 13 

### cost over the life of the product. This is shown in 14 

### the equations that are shown below. The payback 15 

### period is the time to recover the increased purchase 16 

### price of the higer-efficiency products through reduced 17 

### operating costs. We used a sample of households and 18 

### we will be describing in more detail later [how] to do this 19 

### analysis. 20 

### The equations are shown here. The 21 

### analysis models with the uncertainty and variability 22 

### of inputs using the Monte Carlo approach and theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## probability distributions using Excel spreadsheets 2 

## which uses a Crystal Ball add-on. 3 

## In the next slides, I will fully explain 4 

## the approach applied to generate the inputs and the 5 

## probability distributions. The spreadsheet inputs 6 

## and the application method -- this will also be a 7 

## good opportunity to answer any questions about the 8 

## analysis methods in the LCC spreadsheet. 9 

## This is next slide. I won't go through it 10 

## in detail. It is just for the purpose of summarizing 11 

## all the different inputs, and you can use this as 12 

## notes as we go through the discussion. Basically, we 13 

## will be going through all these different inputs in 14 

## the order in which they are shown on this slide, so 15 

## first, we will be describing the total installed cost 16 

## which includes the consumer product price and the 17 

## installation cost. 18 

## Then we will be talking about the 19 

## operating costs, which will include the energy use, 20 

## energy prices, maintenance and repair costs. Then we 21 

## will talk about the other inputs for the LCC analysis, 22 

## including the discount rates, lifetime, base-caseThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### efficiency distributions. 2 

### For this analysis, the LCC tools include 3 

### product switching, and that will be described further on 4 

### as well. 5 

### MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE. 6 

### If people want to pull this slide out from the rest 7 

### of them because I think this is a good cheat sheet as 8 

### we go through when Victor describes the different 9 

### analyses. This is a good map -- key map for the 10 

### concepts that will be discussed, so 11 

### MR. FRANCO: Thank you, John. So this is 12 

### Victor Franco again. First, then, we will be 13 

### discussing the product price determination. The 14 

### product prices are determined by multiplying the 15 

### manufacturer cost by the markups, which will be fully 16 

### described on the next few slides, and the price for 17 

### manufacturer. 18 

### As we discussed earlier in the engineering 19 

### analysis, the manufacturer production costs are 20 

### developed for each efficiency level. The markups are 21 

### derived from company direct costs, expenses, and profit. 22 

### The consumer price is based on MSP for the baseline andThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### higher-efficiency products. 2 

### We characterized the non-weatherized gas 3 

### furnace and mobile home gas furnace distribution 4 

### channels, and we will be describing that in more 5 

### detail in the next slide. 6 

### The price trends on the historical PPI 7 

### data are based on the historical PPI data and 8 

### shipping data. The price trend is a decreasing -- it 9 

### decreases about 16.5% over the 30-year analysis 10 

### period. The 30-year analysis period starts in 2021 11 

### and goes until 2050. We also consider sensitivity 12 

### analyses of other trends: a high decreasing -- a higher 13 

### decreasing rate and a constant trend, and those are 14 

### provided. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Neil, please go ahead. 16 

### MR. LESLIE: I'm going to try to re-ask a 17 

### question. I'm sorry, I'm Neil Leslie with Gas 18 

### Technology. Excuse me. , I apologize for that. So a 19 

### little bit ago, I asked a question that related to at 20 

### what level of shipment for a particular product, such 21 

### as a 92% furnace, would it be considered a mature 22 

### product, and so I'm going to re-ask this in context ofThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### the default price trend which seemed to be 2 

### decreasing, a decreasing price trend over time. 3 

### And my question is, and I'm not sure who is 4 

### going to be able to answer this question, how many of 5 

### the products at the different trial standard levels 6 

### are deemed to be mature products, such as the 80% 7 

### product, whose market share has been declining over 8 

### time remains considered a mature product? 9 

### Does the 90%, does the 92%, does the 95%, 10 

### and does the 98% furnace also qualify as a mature 11 

### product? If so, what would the rationale be for a 12 

### decreasing price trend, and if not, why not? 13 

### MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question. I 14 

### would have to defer that to my colleagues. 15 

### MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. Let 16 

### me just take a stab at the context of learning that 17 

### you bring up here. So what we did here is we looked 18 

### at furnaces generally, so I guess going back to 19 

### Andrew's opening remarks, maybe we can rephrase your 20 

### question in terms of is there -- do you believe there 21 

### should be no learning for the whole market or do you 22 

### believe that furnaces should be just aggregated byThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## the AFUE levels to pick out which ones could 2 

## experience more learning relative to the others? 3 

## So I guess when we put that back on to 4 

## what your thinking is, and then we can better answer 5 

## the question. 6 

## MR. LESLIE: Ultimately it will go to -- 7 

## this is Neil Leslie -- ultimately it will go to the 8 

## price trend for the different trial standard levels 9 

## for each of the individual trial standard levels, and 10 

## so if indeed there is no distinction among the trial 11 

## standard levels related to what I would call a 12 

## learning curve, then my question is, and this is where 13 

## I am back to it, would that imply then that DOE is 14 

## assuming that these are all at fairly mature levels 15 

## of shipments? 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: No, so I think what we are 17 

## saying is, based on the data that we had, we created 18 

## one trend for all the whole furnace market, and so I 19 

## guess to interpret your question, it sounds like if 20 

## the level of shipments for say in 98 are much lower 21 

## relative to an 80, we should have faster learning on 22 

## the 98 than we should the 80, is that a yes?The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### MR. LESLIE: I'm not suggesting what is 2 

### correct. I just wanted to know what you have. 3 

### MR. CYMBALSKY: Right, so it's the same 4 

### and we have been consistent with all of our rules 5 

### that we applied the learning equally amongst all the 6 

### technologies. We don't have faster learning in the 7 

### lower shipment AFUEs in this example. Same for all 8 

### of the products, but we understand where you are 9 

### coming from. If we had the data that could support 10 

### better disaggregation, we are all for taking it in. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Mark? 12 

### MR. KREBS: Mark Krebs, the Laclede Group. 13 

### John, as I recall from the DFR, you had a significantly 14 

### faster learning for gas furnaces than you did for air 15 

### conditioners, so you know, consider that that is a fact, 16 

### and although this NOPR is just about furnaces you 17 

### know, I would say that you haven't been consistent. 18 

### MR. CYMBALSKY: No I think -- John 19 

### Cymbalsky, DOE. The methodology has been consistent. 20 

### The actual trends are different based on the data for 21 

### each product, so I don't know off the top of my head 22 

### what the air conditioner one was, but for example, weThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### have another rule where we look at the data -- same 2 

### data source but for the different product category 3 

### out of the data set -- and there was no learning. 4 

### There was no observed learning. I'm not 5 

### saying its air conditioners but so it all depends on 6 

### the product. The methodology is consistent. 7 

### MR. KREBS: Well, I would suggest that it 8 

### is just another area of controversy that we should 9 

### probably do without even attempting to factor in 10 

### learning curves. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew deLaski? 12 

### MR. DELASKI: Well doing without it is 13 

### doing without the data. I mean, it's based on a model 14 

### and data, it's not based on just an opportunity -- 15 

### from a hat and that's really -- I applaud the Department 16 

### for coming up with a statistically-driven model that 17 

### is based on economic literature that is used not just 18 

### in DOE rulemakings but in other economic analysis for 19 

### how products evolve over time. 20 

### So I applaud DOE for having the data21 

### driven model. I think the challenge is what Neil put 22 

### his finger on, which is how you apply it to the levelThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### that the new standard will be and I encourage the 2 

### Department to continue to explore approaches that 3 

### will allow you to develop learning for the 4 

### incremental technology. The learning concept is 5 

### driven by for each doubling of production -- of 6 

### cumulative production, there is a certain rate of 7 

### learning. 8 

### So doubling the cumulative production 9 

### should be applied to the particular product at the 10 

### level at which the standard is set, so yeah, I think a 11 

### lot of learning -- 80% -- has been done but I don't think 12 

### that as much learning has been done at the higher 13 

### efficiency level, so the question is, how do you 14 

### capture that in a statistically driven market? But 15 

### let's not ignore the data, let's find out how we can 16 

### use the data to answer that question which I think is 17 

### a relative question from docket. 18 

### We do have the data and it is in the TSD. 19 

### There's a whole chapter that writes this up quite 20 

### clearly over a pretty good time series data. I think, 21 

### thanks to AHRI, I think it is the source on the data, 22 

### one thing that's happening with that data is that theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### tail end coincides with some pretty rich tax credits 2 

### that were applied. 3 

### And those tax credits were intended to 4 

### distort the market, they were intended to try to 5 

### change consumer behavior market distortion. And the 6 

### tax credits, I would submit, likely had an effect on 7 

### prices. Tax credits -- the benefits for tax credits -- 8 

### are shared among consumers and manufacturers. Some 9 

### of those costs are passed on to consumers in lower 10 

### prices, but some of those costs, some of those credits 11 

### end up in enabling prices to stay higher than they 12 

### otherwise would. 13 

### So I think DOE needs to think about how 14 

### you disaggregate the effect of the tax credits from 15 

### what the tax credits were in the learning rates on 16 

### the price trends over time. I don't have an answer 17 

### for you right now how to do that but I think it's 18 

### something that we need to think about to get a better 19 

### estimate of what the actual learning was. 20 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Kimberly Swanson, who is 21 

### joining us online, has a question or a comment. 22 

### Kimberly you are now unmuted I think. Nothing fromThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### 113 3 4 

### Kimberly. Maybe you can join us in a moment. 5 

### We also have a comment from Everett Shorey, 6 

### who is joining us online, actually a question. He 7 

### says, figure 8J31 of the TSD seems to show that the 8 

### price trend is flattening and is not consistent with 9 

### the fitted curve. How have you factored that into 10 

### your analysis? 11 

### MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question. 12 

### We used that part to -- we fit basically, we do the 13 

### best fit to that curve, and, as discussed earlier, part 14 

### of those values are distorted by the market, but we 15 

### use a longer period of time to come up with the 16 

### learning rate that should wash out some of those 17 

### distortion markets. 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs? 19 

### MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE, and Andrew, 20 

### I believe the data that you referred to were not from 21 

### AHRI but from the Census Bureau Producer Price Index, 22 

### so a very small thing. The broader point that I feelThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## is important to bring up is that for the first couple 2 

## of decades of these standards, the process DOE did not 3 

## incorporate learning curves in any significant way 4 

## that I can remember. 5 

## It's been asked for, for the last decade, 6 

## and has been incorporated. To me, the reason that it 7 

## was necessary to include learning curves is that 8 

## DOE's forecast of the retail prices of all sorts of 9 

## things without that were consistently too high for 10 

## almost every product analyzed retrospectively. 11 

## DOE had predicted a higher price for what 12 

## would after standards become the baseline product 13 

## than was actually observed. So the learning curve 14 

## approach can be argued about in the details but we 15 

## feel it was an essential compensation reflecting the 16 

## shift of what had been a niche product into one that 17 

## was built on the best processes with the newest 18 

## production processes, and it was a reflection of what 19 

## actually happened in the market for a range of 20 

## products, from dishwashers to whatever. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Go ahead. 22 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. This is VictorThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## Franco again. Let's move on now to more detail about 2 

## the markups analysis. Markups are used to determine 3 

## consumer prices for manufacturer's selling price for 4 

## both baseline and high-efficiency equipment, as 5 

## discussed earlier. The appropriate markups will 6 

## determine the consumer equipment prices that depend 7 

## on the type of distribution channels to which the 8 

## equipment moves from manufacturers to purchasers. 9 

## And on this slide you can see the 10 

## different distribution channels. At each point in 11 

## the distribution channel, companies mark up the price 12 

## of the equipment to cover the business cost and 13 

## profit margin. There is one primary type of 14 

## distribution channel that is describing the way most 15 

## products pass from manufacturers to consumers for 16 

## furnace products, from manufacturer to wholesaler to 17 

## mechanical contractor to consumer. 18 

## DOE also distinguishes between new 19 

## construction and replacement applications. The new 20 

## construction applications are expected to include the 21 

## general contract as shown in the diagram for 22 

## non-weatherized gas furnaces and includes for mobileThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### home furnaces, mobile home manufacturers and mobile 2 

### home dealers. 3 

### Based on information provided from 4 

### manufacturer interviews, there's another possible 5 

### distribution channel that includes the retail store 6 

### instead of the wholesaler -- in this case the 7 

### manufacturer sells equipment to the retailer who in 8 

### turn sells it to the mechanical contractor who in 9 

### turn sells it to the consumer. 10 

### However, DOE does not have enough 11 

### information at this point to make a separate market 12 

### estimate for this distribution channel. DOE assumed 13 

### that the retail markup is similar to the wholesale 14 

### markup. 15 

### The table below provides the references 16 

### used in the analysis. These references include 17 

### information for the manufacturer markup as discussed 18 

### earlier from the Security and Exchange Commission 10K 19 

### report. This is discussed in the engineering analysis. 20 

### The wholesaler markup comes from data from 21 

### HARDI 2012 profit report. The mechanical contractor 22 

### comes from two sources, ACCA data in the 2005The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### Financial Analysis and U.S. Census 2012 -- 2007 2 

### Plumbing and HVAC Contractors sector. 3 

### The general contractor comes from 2007 4 

### Consumer -- Commercial Building Construction sector. For 5 

### mobile home manufacturer and home dealer, both come 6 

### from U.S. Census Bureau data. Sales taxes come from 7 

### 2013 Sales Tax Clearinghouse Data. 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes please? 9 

### MR. MCCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden, ACCA. 10 

### Your depiction of the new construction -- you have 11 

### the mechanical contractor come before the general 12 

### contractor? Does that suggest that the wholesaler is 13 

### providing it to the mechanical contractor and he is 14 

### subbing the general contractor? I'm a little 15 

### confused by that. 16 

### MR. FRANCO: Yes, thank you. It is a little 17 

### bit complex. Sometimes what happens is you go from 18 

### the wholesaler to how you are describing to the 19 

### contractor. The general contractor is the one that 20 

### connects with the consumer which in many cases is the 21 

### builder of the equipment so he would be the one that 22 

### actually marks up the whole equipment.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## In other cases, it could be the general 2 

## contractor purchasing the equipment and then going 3 

## through the mechanical contractor, so it could be 4 

## either or. In terms of the actual value it would be 5 

## similar because you are just multiplying the 6 

## mechanical or the general contractor. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik? 8 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik AHRI. I'm 9 

## not exactly fond -- but the general contractor, you 10 

## are using this Census Bureau commercial building 11 

## construction and I am going to ask -- I mean is -- I 12 

## understand those words to mean this is not a 13 

## residential building and so my first question is, is 14 

## that a correct assumption that this Census Bureau 15 

## report is in fact not covering residential buildings? 16 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. This is Victor 17 

## Franco. I think that actually is a misprint I think 18 

## that should say residential. 19 

## MR. STANONIK: So you did, okay so you 20 

## used the Census Bureau report on residential building 21 

## general contractor? 22 

## MR. FRANCO: That's correct, sorry aboutThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### that. 2 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have an additional 3 

### question or comment? 4 

### MR. CYMBALSKY: I think -- this is John 5 

### from DOE. To address Charlie's question, to me, the GC 6 

### on this is, like Victor said, is kind of the home 7 

### builder in that case, right, so the home builder, if 8 

### they are building a bunch of town homes, they contract 9 

### with a mechanical HVAC guy to buy a bunch of them, 10 

### right. That's the way I see it, but if the order seems 11 

### backwards, we will take that comment, I think it's 12 

### correct too. 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Frank Stanonik? 14 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik AHRI. I 15 

### think well, it is a little bit on point, I mean, and it 16 

### gets back a little bit to maybe this discussion of 17 

### price, and Andrew mentioned that in the case of 18 

### something like tax incentives or tax credits or 19 

### whatever distorts the market in both the -- or the 20 

### idea at least is the manufacturer and the consumer 21 

### shares on that. 22 

### And this reminds me but in fact -- and theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### analysis, does this -- we need to keep this in mind, 2 

### okay, the ultimate cost the consumer pays they don't -- 3 

### they, they don't buy the furnace from the furnace 4 

### manufacturer, okay, they are paying this installing 5 

### contractor and so the question -- let me rephrase this. 6 

### So even if we talk about tax credits and 7 

### the benefit of the tax credit, you really have to look 8 

### at, okay, so how does the installing contractor deal 9 

### with a tax-incentivized product? Does he in fact 10 

### change -- does he or she change the overall price to 11 

### the consumer? I mean, that's part of the equation, 12 

### and I would say we cannot ignore that because, as we 13 

### will see in many of the slides, that in fact, it is 14 

### very possible that the cost added by the installing 15 

### contractor is more than the cost of the product. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Kimberly Swanson is 17 

### joining us online. Kimberly let's try it again, you 18 

### should be unmuted. 19 

### MS. SWANSON: Okay, am I coming through? 20 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 21 

### MR. SWANSON: I am Kimberly Swanson and I 22 

### am a consumer, and the question actually gets atThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## whether its analysis at all took into consideration 2 

## if the unit was going to be located in an area of the 3 

## country that had a carbon trading market or a 4 

## voluntary program within the market that the unit was 5 

## going to be located that worked to reduce carbon 6 

## emission. 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. We 8 

## are going to get to environmental impacts later, but 9 

## yeah, I think that gets all baked into the cost of the 10 

## fuel that it is in the EIA forecast, but we didn't get 11 

## to that level of specificity in this analysis, okay. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Victor. 13 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you again. This is 14 

## Victor Franco. Going further into the markup 15 

## analysis, DOE uses baseline markups and incremental 16 

## markups. The baseline markups relate the 17 

## manufacturers selling price or baseline equivalent to 18 

## consumer purchase price. DOE applied baseline 19 

## markups to the MSP at the baseline level. 20 

## Incremental markups relate to increase in 21 

## MSP of more-efficient products in the increase of 22 

## consumer purchase price. They cover only theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## expenses that vary with MSP, such as operating 2 

## expenses and profit. Fixed costs such as overhead 3 

## and labor do not scale with increased efficiency. 4 

## DOE applied the incremental markups to incremental 5 

## difference in MSP at each level of the baseline. 6 

## This slide shows the overall markups 7 

## analysis, the average values. Obviously, we apply the 8 

## distributional values for each household depending 9 

## upon what region of the country they are located in. 10 

## As you see here, the manufacturer markups are 1.34 as 11 

## taken from the engineering analysis. The wholesaler 12 

## markups vary as shown. The mechanical contractor is 13 

## shown here as well, and then we have the general 14 

## contractor. 15 

## The average sales tax nationally is listed 16 

## here as 7% and the overall markups from this are 17 

## shown here. I just have here a correction there's a 18 

## national account that is not part of this analysis on 19 

## this table, just before questions the bottom shows 20 

## the overall average markup that's applied in the 21 

## analysis based on the fractional replacement and the 22 

## construction.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Another question from 2 

### Everett Shorey online. Have you done any interviews 3 

### or collected any data from contractors and/or 4 

### wholesalers/distributors on their actual markup 5 

### practices? 6 

### MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question. 7 

### We use ACCA data, which is a contractor's association 8 

### that gathers data from contractors and we also use 9 

### HARDI data, which gathers information -- aggregate 10 

### information from distributors. We have not contacted 11 

### directly individual contractors or distributors. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Please follow on, say your 13 

### name. 14 

### MR. MURPHY: Yes. Rick Murphy, AGA. I would 15 

### like to go back to an earlier question I had 16 

### regarding the method of building up the retail price 17 

### and the process that is used, if you do a 18 

### reconciliation or a reasonable test to what your 19 

### results are with what is actually happening in the 20 

### market, in this case particularly on the market, I'm 21 

### sure we will get into a similar discussion on the 22 

### installation cost.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much for that 2 

## question. In the past we have provided a comparison 3 

## of retail prices that were found either online or 4 

## from distributors to the cost. In the case of this 5 

## analysis, it is a little bit more difficult because 6 

## the baseline starts with a much higher -- because of 7 

## the furnace fan standard, much higher, so it is hard 8 

## to compare baseline prices right now on the market to 9 

## the assumed baseline in this analysis because of the 10 

## furnace fan standard. 11 

## So we have done that in the past and our 12 

## results are similar to those either through the 13 

## retail prices kind of -- 14 

## MR. MURPHY: So I believe in the TSD that 15 

## that differential between 80 and 92 based upon this 16 

## pricing is about $172.00 or so and so we haven't been 17 

## able to determine how that relates to the actual 18 

## market with what we are seeing in the market today. 19 

## I'm not sure of the exact number but that is what I 20 

## recall. 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm just looking at -- 22 

## this is John from DOE -- so if my math is correct weThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## see the MSP markup at 1.21 and then to that you would 2 

## apply these factors, so that gets me into the several 3 

## hundred dollar, 350 -- 4 

## MR. FRANCO: Yeah, this is Victor Franco. 5 

## I'm just looking at the TSD right now, so it's in 6 

## chapter 8, table 8.2.7, you can actually see the 7 

## values rise, the incremental from going from 80 to 8 

## 90% is $163.00 it's around what we gave you before. 9 

## MR. MURPHY: So we haven't been able to 10 

## evaluate that against what we are actually seeing in 11 

## the market for that increment? 12 

## MR. FRANCO: No, and it's complicated 13 

## because of the furnace standard. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. 15 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Just 16 

## a follow up on what you just said. Okay, so in this 17 

## analysis, my baseline would still be the 80 with a, 18 

## what do you call an advanced motor, okay I will just 19 

## call it an advanced motor, and so also the 90 whatever 20 

## product is also going to have an advanced motor, so in 21 

## the analysis, in that case, for these markups other 22 

## than the manufacturers, are you using the baselineThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## markup or the incremental relative to the motor? 2 

## MR. FRANCO: So how we applied it in the 3 

## analysis, we apply it to the whole baseline so it 4 

## includes the furnace fan as part of the 80% level. 5 

## The incremental, which is just the condensing going 6 

## from non-condensing to condensing, is the incremental. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Another question from 8 

## Everett Shorey. The question is -- I guess it's a 9 

## comment - well, there is a question and a comment. A 10 

## question from Everett Shorey -- so you have no data 11 

## to show that the incremental markup concept is 12 

## absolutely congruent with real practices in the 13 

## field? 14 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you again for that 15 

## question. In the past when the comparison has been 16 

## more straight-forward, we have found that our analysis 17 

## matches with real data. Again, in this case, because 18 

## of the furnace fans the standard it is a little bit 19 

## more complicated, but we do assume that because it has 20 

## been consistent with the analysis in the past, our 21 

## analysis is consistent now. We will look in that for 22 

## more detail. Please provide comments.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: We also have a comment from 2 

## Mark Nayes who says, the price of the installation of 3 

## our furnaces are based on costs, of which a tax credit 4 

## is not one. Our costs of installing a furnace is 5 

## typically 2 to 6 times the cost of the furnace. 6 

## Yes, Aniruddh? 7 

## MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, Goodman. So to 8 

## follow up on Frank's question, this analysis 9 

## essentially on the markup side does not account for 10 

## PSC motors. 11 

## MR. FRANCO: Just to clarify we are mainly 12 

## dealing with non-weatherized gas furnaces, that is 13 

## correct for non-weatherized gas furnaces. For mobile 14 

## home gas furnaces baseline, it is a PSC motor because 15 

## of the furnace fan standard but for non-weatherized 16 

## gas furnaces, you are correct. 17 

## So let's move on if there are any other 18 

## comments about the markup analysis or anything that 19 

## we discussed. So now let's move on to installation 20 

## costs. So this is obviously a part of the analysis 21 

## which includes a lot of inputs so I will go through 22 

## it as early as I can, please ask questions as we goThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### through this. 2 

### This flow chart is supposed to serve as an 3 

### introduction to the installation model. Again we 4 

### start with household sample. From that household 5 

### sample we determine location of that household and 6 

### other characteristics of the household. Based on 7 

### that, we use those characteristics to further 8 

### determine the installation costs for that household 9 

### individually as follows. 10 

### So first for the installation costs we 11 

### look at kind of starting for the right side of the 12 

### part, there are basic costs, installation costs -- these 13 

### are the green boxes -- venting installation costs, and 14 

### condensate withdrawal installation costs. The 15 

### condensate withdrawal would be mainly for condensing 16 

### for this, only for condensing purposes, and the venting 17 

### installation costs are related to non-condensing. We 18 

### will go into more detail about the venting costs. I 19 

### won't describe that area because I will describe it 20 

### more in a couple of more slides. 21 

### So these three components give us the 22 

### individual household installation costs. Our dataThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## sources included RS Means to come up with these 2 

## costs, the Residential Cost Data Book from 2013 and 3 

## we have done this analysis in the past -- we also 4 

## reference 2011 DFR, the 2007 furnace and boiler final 5 

## rule, and we have -- we used manufacturer literature 6 

## as well. 7 

## So because it is an important component of 8 

## the installation cost, I will describe it a little 9 

## detailed with this flow chart how we determine the 10 

## location of the furnace. So first we have the RECS 11 

## household. RECS does not provide directly where the 12 

## furnace might be located, there is no question in 13 

## RECS that gives us that answer, but it does provide 14 

## what characteristics the household will have. 15 

## For example, it asks whether the household 16 

## has a basement, whether the household has an attic, 17 

## what year it was built, whether it has a crawl space 18 

## or a garage, so we use all of these characteristics 19 

## to try to come up where we would think the furnace is 20 

## located. 21 

## If a furnace is in the basement for 22 

## example it is assumed that if the household has aThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## basement for example we assume that the furnace is 2 

## located in the basement. In that example we also 3 

## have information from RECS that provides us whether 4 

## it is a finished or an unfinished basement and then 5 

## we use that information as well. 6 

## As you can see, we have different criteria 7 

## for the other parameters, indoor or a garage or crawl 8 

## space. This slide provides the result -- we have a 9 

## question? 10 

## MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. On your 11 

## attic bullet there is a term HH and I didn't catch 12 

## its meaning. 13 

## MR. FRANCO: Sorry about that, I tried to 14 

## go quickly through that slide. The HH is supposed to 15 

## represent household. 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So we think this might 17 

## address question 4 in your installation question 18 

## relating to how does it account for installations 19 

## where more than one furnace is necessary. 20 

## MR. SCHROEDER: Closets not separated out. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Dave, please say your name. 22 

## MR. SCHROEDER: Sorry, Dave Schroeder.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### MR. BROOKMAN: I will repeat the question. 2 

### MR. SCHROEDER: So closet installations 3 

### are just installations that there is no 4 

### differentiation between closet and -- 5 

### MR. FRANCO: That is correct, yes, for our 6 

### analysis we just use indoor and that does include 7 

### closet and other situations indoors. I just forgot 8 

### to mention to respond to the comment that for 9 

### households with multiple furnaces, a fraction of the 10 

### time the same household will be analyzed with the 11 

### furnace in the attic or indoors or in the closet in 12 

### the second floor. And another fraction of the time 13 

### the furnace will be analyzed as in the closet or 14 

### indoor space on the first floor or in another 15 

### location such as the garage. This would address that 16 

### question from HH. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 18 

### MR. MCCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden, ACCA. 19 

### What are the numbers in the blue sort of oval cells 20 

### in the bottom? 21 

### MR. FRANCO: Yes, the numbers, sorry, I went 22 

### through this rather quickly because there are a lotThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## of details. The numbers that match the installation 2 

## location key that is used in the LCC spreadsheet, so 3 

## number one represents the condition basement, you go 4 

## to the LCC spreadsheet and try to figure out what 5 

## is one in terms of the installation location, what 6 

## that means. 7 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: So that's the rank, the 8 

## most? 9 

## MR. CYMBAKSY: No, it just keys up to the 10 

## spreadsheet, so if someone wanted to go and look at 11 

## the numbers in the spreadsheet, you can go to one and 12 

## that represents conditions B. It's just a mapping 13 

## key for the spreadsheet. 14 

## MR. FRANCO: We will go over the fractions 15 

## in the next slide. This slide just presents the 16 

## results that are also provided in the TSD in terms of 17 

## the installation location. These results are just 18 

## aggregated by region as well as national. As you can 19 

## see there's differences in terms of a region which is 20 

## incorporated into our analysis. 21 

## So let's go into the installation costs. 22 

## So we can consider basic installation costs asThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## installation costs that are applicable to all 2 

## efficiency levels. This includes a trip charge, this 3 

## includes removal of the existing furnace in the 4 

## replacement case, putting in place and setting up the 5 

## furnace, unit start up, checkup and clean up. Gas 6 

## piping, electric hookup, removal or disposal fees, 7 

## any additional labor required for attic installations, 8 

## and the duct work costs. 9 

## The duct work cost was accidentally 10 

## removed in the basic installation costs while 11 

## reformatting the spreadsheets; it is actually not 12 

## included. This will be added back in the next phase 13 

## of the analysis since the basic installation costs 14 

## are the same for all efficiency levels and are also 15 

## applicable for equipment switching options, electric 16 

## furnace and the heat pump we will be discussing 17 

## later. 18 

## Adding this cost will not impact the 19 

## difference in the final result between the efficiency 20 

## levels. This addresses one of the questions from 21 

## APGA. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This would be question oneThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## from the installation cost questions in Appendix 8D. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have comments here? 3 

## Jim, please? 4 

## MR. VERSHAW: Jim VerShaw, Ingersoll Rand. 5 

## So I'm looking at this, how many man hours are 6 

## included in that typical installation? 7 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question. 8 

## This is Victor Franco. It depends on the input 9 

## capacity. I believe it is on average either 4 or 5 10 

## hours, that's the actual kind of unit startup, 11 

## removing, replacing, and if it is in the replacement 12 

## situation you have to have the removal of the 13 

## existing furnace, so that is approximately half of 14 

## that. 15 

## MR. VERSHAW: So the 4 or 5 hours, Jim 16 

## VerShaw again, includes removing the old furnace? 17 

## MR. FRANCO: No it does not. I would -- 18 

## MR. VERSHAW: 2 more for that, 2 or 3 more 19 

## for that. 20 

## MR. FRANCO: For that. Overall it 21 

## probably takes about 10 hours. 22 

## MR. VERSHAW: So it's interesting that theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## north is so much more expensive than north -- national 2 

## and rest of the country. What's the difference 3 

## between national and rest of the country, that's 4 

## another question, and why is the north so much more 5 

## expensive on replacement than the other parts of the 6 

## country? 7 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Do you live in the north? 9 

## MR. VERSHAW: No, I used to. 10 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So the national is just 11 

## the average of the two below it, so the north and the 12 

## rest of the country -- not north, you weight the 13 

## average and you get the top number. 14 

## MR. VERSHAW: So is California north? 15 

## MR. FRANCO: No that would be rest of 16 

## country in this picture Frank. 17 

## MR. VERSHAW: All right, so do you have 18 

## listed somewhere the labor rates that you assumed? 19 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes, these are listed in 20 

## appendix 8D. 21 

## MR. VERSHAW: If I read that right, it was 22 

## like $60.00 an hour for a plumber and an electricianThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## and $50.00 an hour for a technician, something like 2 

## that. Was this overhead profit? 3 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct, yes, and the 4 

## rates are different between the -- for example in New 5 

## York it is expensive, Georgia -- 6 

## MR. VERSHAW: I have been doing a survey 7 

## around the country for people that work for our 8 

## equipment. It's higher than that, so we will do 9 

## something on the comments for that, or we will do it 10 

## through AHRI. 11 

## Now to go back to what did you do to 12 

## validate your number of hours are correct, and you 13 

## took the dollar per hour from RS Means, right? 14 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes, that is correct. 15 

## MR. VERSHAW: What did you do to validate 16 

## that that was actually real? Did anybody in Navigant 17 

## or DOE have a furnace installed or get a quote just 18 

## to see what you would see and then compare that with 19 

## what this is to see if the real world matches up to 20 

## this, because it's an awful lot of assumptions. 21 

## Everything is based on the RS Means dollars for 22 

## installation.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. FRANCO: That is correct, thank you so 2 

## much for that comment. We do try to look at that 3 

## kind of data. There are data sources that provide 4 

## from either the homeowner or contractors what they 5 

## have actually spent and there are national averages, 6 

## so we try to look at that data and compare that data 7 

## to our data. 8 

## Obviously that's a mixture of high 9 

## efficiency and lower efficiency so we try to weight 10 

## that and compare it to our values and our values are 11 

## comparable to those. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: You are next, your name 13 

## please? 14 

## MR. MURPHY: Rick Murphy, AGA. I had a 15 

## similar question and I appreciate that response. We 16 

## are also in the process of trying to work with our 17 

## members in their respective communities that they 18 

## serve to get specific proposals from contractors in 19 

## the area to have more intelligence, and hopefully, if 20 

## that is a value to you, we can certainly share that. 21 

## I do have a question and maybe it is not 22 

## appropriate here, it may be for the product switchingThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## section, but this approach here, is this assuming 2 

## that every -- in the replacement market, every 3 

## installation has an opportunity to install a 4 

## condensing piece of equipment and it is just a matter 5 

## of cost, or do you also take into consideration 6 

## households or structures that it is almost impossible 7 

## to install the equipment? 8 

## MR. FRANCO: Great. Thank you so much for 9 

## that question, but we will get into more details 10 

## regarding the installation of condensing a little bit 11 

## later. We do assume that you are able to install it 12 

## even though the costs might be really, really high. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Krebs, do you have a 14 

## comment here? 15 

## MR. KREBS: Well, just to answer the 16 

## gentleman's question. Laclede people have gotten 17 

## bids for actual replacements in their actual homes 18 

## and we are going to -- we did that for the DFR, we 19 

## commented upon that and we are going to be repeating 20 

## that for this NOPR. 21 

## We also have a huge database of appliance 22 

## efficiency rebates that we have provided to peopleThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### who have done this and the results of those were also 2 

### commented upon in the last DFR and to make a long 3 

### story short, yeah, it seems like DOE kind of low-balled 4 

### the total installed prices. 5 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Mark Nayes online, 6 

### Mark you are now unmuted. 7 

### MR. NAYES: Okay. Yep, we are essentially in 8 

### that northern zone, we are in Minnesota, and for a 9 

### non-condensing furnace, our total installation cost, 10 

### not including the furnace, is at least double that 11 

### number. For a condensing furnace, we are looking at 12 

### triple that number. We are kind of a middle of the 13 

### road company. We are not the most expensive guys up 14 

### here but we are not the cheapest, and that includes 15 

### permits, materials, electrical, gassing, everything 16 

### that is involved, the insurance overhead, both of 17 

### those numbers we see as being low. 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Mark, that's helpful, 19 

### thank you. Okay, we are going to proceed. 20 

### MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much. Let's 21 

### proceed. So we've already discussed the basic 22 

### installation costs. Now let's go into a little bitThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### more detail of the venting installation costs. So we 2 

### do consider some situations where replacing a 3 

### non-condensing furnace with a non-condensing furnace 4 5 

### 140 6 7 

### requires some venting modifications. 8 

### These could include chimney lining for the 9 

### replacement, vent mount modification in case of 10 

### replacement, and the new metal vent in the new 11 

### construction, and we will go into more details in the 12 

### next slide. 13 

### For condensing furnaces, we have to 14 

### consider installing a new PVC venting. Also, there are 15 

### cases where you orphan the water heater in terms of 16 

### the replacement, and we also consider the additional 17 

### combustion air for direct vent and concealing vent 18 

### pipe. I'll be discussing that in more detail in 19 

### subsequent slides. 20 

### Since one of the most important components 21 

### are the vent length, this slide -- it's a little bit 22 

### overwhelming -- does provide the methodology forThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### determining the vent length. I will go over it briefly 2 

### and as carefully as I can, but essentially, we do take 3 

### into account a lot of different factors in 4 

### determining the vent length. 5 

### For example, we take into account the floor 6 

### height. Typical floor heights are about 8 feet -- 8 7 

### to 9 feet. RECS provides us with whether there's a 8 

### high ceiling or a cathedral ceiling, so we take that 9 

### in account. Also, the number of floors are taken into 10 

### account, so for example, if we assume that the furnace 11 

### is in the basement and the house is two stories, then 12 

### we assume that the venting has to go through two 13 

### stories if it is vented vertically. 14 

### In terms of horizontal installations, we 15 

### also take into account the installation location's 16 

### square footage so we need to know through what wall 17 

### and how far the venting has to go to vent 18 

### horizontally. So we take an average wall length and 19 

### we have a distribution that accounts for the furnace 20 

### being not by the wall that it is going to be vented 21 

### through, but maybe in another location, so potentially 22 

### the furnace is in a wall and maybe it is by the wallThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## but it can be vented through that wall. 2 

## Maybe the situation might be that there is 3 

## a -- it's sharing a wall with the neighbor or that 4 

## wall is the wall that's the exterior wall. So we 5 

## assume that on average the furnace is more or less in 6 

## the middle of the building and then we assume a vent 7 

## length. There is a distribution applied to that so 8 

## there are some cases where the furnace does vent 9 

## through that wall and there is to the furnace and it 10 

## is the short length. 11 

## There are other situations where it has to 12 

## vent through the full building and those would 13 

## require the greatest vent length. In terms of 14 

## horizontal venting, there's an additional component 15 

## which is the horizontal in terms of horizontal 16 

## there's an -- horizontal and vertical, there are 17 

## additional for horizontal and vertical distances that 18 

## need to be taken into account and these are the last 19 

## few boxes. So for example, if you are venting 20 

## vertically, you need to account for some horizontal 21 

## distance. We assume about three to six feet. 22 

## In terms of the horizontal venting, we alsoThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### account, for example, if it is in the basement, you have 2 

### to go at least three feet above ground and to vent 3 

### horizontally, and that would be the vertical distance, 4 

### well at least part of the vertical distance. 5 

### So let's go into a little bit more detail 6 

### about what we mean by non-condensing in the 7 

### replacement cases venting installation costs. So 8 

### first there are some masonry chimneys that require 9 

### re-lining. There are a number of households, 10 

### especially in the north, that have a chimney. The 11 

### furnaces that were installed before 1995 were built 12 

### before 1995 are assumed to not be applicable to the 13 

### latest national gas code and might require relining 14 

### of the masonry chimney. 15 

### DOE does also consider vent resizing and 16 

### vent connectors that are required. This is the case 17 

### mostly of installations where you have a furnace that 18 

### is a natural draft furnace that is installed in the 19 

### household and so we assume that if the household has 20 

### a natural draft and non-weatherized gas furnace that 21 

### might fall into that category. 22 

### We also consider whether the unit is goingThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### to be replaced before the standard in 2021. Once it 2 

### is replaced, obviously it will be a natural draft 3 

### furnace and if the chimney has been relined. 4 

### Here are the fractions of the existing 5 

### masonry chimney and venting installations that come 6 

### from GTI survey done in the 1990's. They are 7 

### disaggregated by different regions. As you can see 8 

### there's a significant regional variation. 9 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Marshall Hunt? 10 

### MR. HUNT: Yes, one of the things -- Marshall 11 

### Hunt, Pacific Gas and Electric Company. One of the 12 

### things we were looking at in California is there is a 13 

### lot of tran-site asbestos-based sedimentacious flues 14 

### out there so how -- where would you place them in 15 

### this analysis? 16 

### MR. FRANCO: I'm sorry I didn't catch the 17 

### first part of your question? 18 

### MR. HUNT: A lot of flues in the older 19 

### homes are asbestos-based transite, that hard pipe, 20 

### where would you include that in this analysis? 21 

### MR. FRANCO: Well, it is currently not part 22 

### of the analysis. Please submit any data that you mightThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## have about that and we will definitely look into 2 

## that, thank you so much for that comment. 3 

## One thing that's important to know, and 4 

## it's a part of this analysis but it is not here, is we 5 

## also take into account the fraction of commonly 6 

## vented water heater and furnace situations by region. 7 

## It's a similar table to the one shown here, it's in 8 

## the TSD, it's table 8D.2.8 and it is also based on the 9 

## GTI study done in the '90s, and the results from that 10 

## are about half of commonly vented installations -- 11 

## those commonly vented installations becomes more 12 

## important in condensing cost analysis. 13 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with ACCA. 14 

## Marshall I wanted to ask a follow-up. You mentioned 15 

## the word asbestos pipe or something, I just heard 16 

## asbestos. What are the implications of your question 17 

## essentially on an installation? 18 

## MR. HUNT: Our friends at So-Cal Gas are 19 

## concerned about the added cost for installation. 20 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: So is there a remediation 21 

## that is required, what's -- 22 

## MR. HUNT: It's potential, so we will getThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### more data. 2 

### MR. MCCRUDDEN: Okay thanks. 3 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Andrew deLaski? 4 

### MR. DELASKI: Victor, you mentioned 5 

### relining. Is there relining in the base case in some 6 

### instances? 7 

### MR. FRANCO: This is Victor Franco. That is 8 

### the case, that is what we are trying to describe in 9 

### this slide. So we are going from a non-condensing, 10 

### maybe like a natural draft but it could be also a 11 

### non-condensing current furnace to a baseline and 12 

### non-condensing furnace, 80% furnace, so that is the 13 

### baseline. 14 

### MR. DELASKI: Okay, got it. Thank you. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Mark? 16 

### MR. KREBS: Victor, Mark Krebs with 17 

### Laclede Group again. I don't want to mess up your 18 

### delivery here, but when would be a good time to talk 19 

### about the ductwork issues that we discussed yesterday, 20 

### you know, and the fact that typical duct work really 21 

### means bad duct works because, commonly, more often than 22 

### not, they are bad duct work -- they cause a lot of staticThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## pressure that has a lot of implications for 2 

## electricity consumption. 3 

## When could we get into that or can we? 4 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes, we do get into that in 5 

## the electricity use. DOE does not assume in its 6 

## analysis that there is any installation costs related 7 

## to improving the duct work, it just assumes that there 8 

## is an increased use if you have the situation of bad 9 

## ducts in its analysis, similar to what we did for 10 

## furnace fans and what we have done in the past. 11 

## MR. KREBS: I tried to get a feeling, maybe 12 

## if you would help me, if you guys could break out, you 13 

## know, what portion of that electricity comes from the 14 

## added static pressure of the condensing furnace 15 

## compared to the remainder that comes from the duct 16 

## work system, you know. 17 

## If there is a way to break that out, I 18 

## think we could have a better opportunity to dig into 19 

## it and come back with some meaningful comments. 20 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much, we can go 21 

## into that in electricity use in a little bit more 22 

## detail.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. KREBS: Okay I'll hold you to it. 2 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much and remind 3 

## me if I don't. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Jim VerShaw? 5 

## MR. VERSHAW: Jim VerShaw. A quick 6 

## question on the existing non-weatherized gas furnaces 7 

## less than 75%, are you saying that in your analysis 8 

## that 3/10ths of the installs would be that way? 9 

## 3/10ths of a percent, I don't understand the fraction 10 

## impacted column. 11 

## There's another column in the TSD that was 12 

## probable and that had been impacted and they were two 13 

## different numbers, I wasn't quite sure how you used 14 

## that. Because, if you think about it, come 2021, that 15 

## will be 29 years after we pretty much got rid of 16 

## atmospheric furnaces, and I think furnaces are known 17 

## to last 21 years, so they probably should be 18 

## looked -- I would think that there would be almost 19 

## none out there at that point. Is that what that 20 

## says? 21 

## MR. FRANCO: That is exactly true and 22 

## that's why we take into account if there have beenThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## installations, so just to clarify a little bit in more 2 

## detail. RECS does provide the age of the furnace, 3 

## so we know if the furnace, for example, has been 4 

## installed after 1990 or 1995, and then we can assume 5 

## whether those would be natural draft. But then we 6 

## would have to assume what happens between 2009 when 7 

## the survey was conducted to 2021 so obviously in 2009 8 

## there's a larger fraction. 9 

## By 2021 there's a much smaller fraction. 10 

## This is what that represents, on natural draft 11 

## furnaces. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck? 13 

## MR. WHITE: Chuck White with PHCC. So I 14 

## don't know if it is going to be wrapped in here 15 

## somewhere but first I would like to comment, the 16 

## common water heater and furnace I think your 50% 17 

## probably low, but PVC venting, do you have 18 

## consideration for maximum point for piping 19 

## equivalent, like fittings, in consideration of 20 

## termination of where those can be: not over public 21 

## right-of-ways, not related to open windows, forced 22 

## air ventilation, going through multi-family,The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## multi-story buildings, traversing other property 2 

## lines, exceeding maximum vent heights, going through 3 

## multi-story buildings, I can go on. 4 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much for that 5 

## comment. The next slide actually provides that and I 6 

## will be going into that in more detail, and obviously 7 

## if that is what you are more interested. Let me just 8 

## point out before going to answer your question, the 9 

## last thing on this slide, it does provide the average 10 

## cost for all of these different situations and is 11 

## noted the different fraction of impacted units. 12 

## So let's go more into a big piece of the 13 

## installation costs for condensing furnaces. So there 14 

## is a situation where you would go from a 15 

## non-condensing furnace, either potentially natural 16 

## draft, but most likely currently available 80% 17 18 

## furnace to condensing furnace, and so we take a 19 

## lot of the factors that you have described into 20 

## account as much as we can for each individual 21 

## household. 22 

## So as described before we take intoThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## account the furnace where it is actually an 2 

## installation location. So as I tried to describe it 3 

## before in that complicated flow chart we are trying 4 

## to assess what would happen in each individual home 5 

## which is pretty complicated. 6 

## There is a situation that a fraction of 7 

## the households where you could potentially have a 8 

## furnace as I mentioned in the wall, the easiest would 9 

## be to have the venting through that wall horizontally 10 

## but for whatever reason you can't have that. So 11 

## there is a situation where you might have to actually 12 

## go through all the way as far as possible to say for 13 

## example if you are in this corner diagonally all the 14 

## way to the other diagonal. 15 

## And in addition to that you might go 16 

## through multiple walls because that might be a wall 17 

## that's a room that you have to drill a hole through 18 

## that and then go through another one and then you 19 

## have to account for the verticals, you might have to 20 

## drill holes through vertical floors potentially and 21 

## then go horizontally. So it does take that into 22 

## account in terms of installation and these are allThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## fractions obviously. 2 

## There are fractions of installations where 3 

## you can just drill through that wall. Maybe it's a 4 

## closet and that's a perfectly good wall so that's why 5 

## we do that because we understand that there are many 6 

## situations where because you are going up for example 7 

## from the basement that wall potentially has a lot of 8 

## windows, and you can't go and drill a hole through a 9 

## window or close to a window, you don't want to have 10 

## those flue gasses going through there. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Neil? 12 

## MR. LESLIE: Neil Leslie, GTI. Just to 13 

## make sure that we understand the specific numbers 14 

## that are used you said there were some average costs. 15 

## Now when you get to an individual house in the 10,000 16 

## runs you have incremental costs attached to that 17 

## individual house configuration, is that right? 18 

## MR. FRANCO: No, the cost to each 19 

## individual house or the cost of that specific house 20 

## installation so for example, lets go back to that very 21 

## complicated installation household. So it's in the 22 

## wall, kind of in the diagonal and you have to goThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## through multiple walls that cost is applied to the 2 

## household installation cost. 3 

## For another household potentially it just 4 

## goes through to that wall and so it's a very small 5 

## cost to do the venting so it is individual, household 6 

## by household. 7 

## So, I kind of described already some of 8 

## these points, but just to reiterate, we do go and 9 

## account for ceiling height, number of floors, the 10 

## distance from the wall or roof, whether it can be 11 

## vertical or horizontally installed, so there are some 12 

## situations where you can actually have vertical 13 

## installation and it might make the most sense for a 14 

## condensing furnace. 15 

## And finally we take into account the vent 16 

## termination. There are a couple of points here for 17 

## this that describe some comments that we have 18 

## received, so I will go through those in a little bit 19 

## more detail related to these two lasts points. 20 

## In terms of wall penetration, there is no 21 

## electrical work required in this PVC venting 22 

## installation work. DOE estimated the cost of drillingThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### a hole into a wall to install PVC venting based on 2 

### similar work required for drilling holes and for 3 

### electrical work for our estimates, and this is common 4 

### practice. Sometimes there are costs and ours means in 5 

### one area or another, and it is assumed that the costs 6 

### are similar to, for example, doing that electrical 7 

### work. 8 

### In the 2011 TSD, there was a $35.00 value 9 

### that was added to the material costs associated with 10 

### drilling a hole. This cost was incorrectly reported 11 

### in the TSD itself. It did not exist in the 12 

### spreadsheet analysis or in the analysis in 2011 or in 13 

### this analysis in 2014, so that is related to a 14 

### specific question we received. 15 

### In terms of vent terminations this is 16 

### addressing we were asked a specific question -- and this is 17 

### related to the vent termination. How we deal with 18 

### it. DOE assumed that, for all horizontal vent 19 

### terminations for condensing furnaces, require adding a 20 

### three feet of PVC above ground level and a 90 degree 21 

### level elbow as a proxy toward the termination count, 22 

### assuming that this was equivalent to an averageThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### requirement for installation -- what is commonly called 2 

### a snorkel type vent termination -- so you can imagine 3 

### you going up vertically about three feet then 4 

### horizontal and then you have a termination so it 5 

### makes kind of like a snorkel, so that's what is meant 6 

### by the snorkel termination. 7 

### The venting termination takes into account 8 

### the closest wall that might be appropriate to install, 9 

### as we described earlier, so it takes into account the 10 

### issues of the windows, doors, decks, overhangs, 11 

### sharing of walls with other as we have described 12 

### earlier. 13 

### MR. CYBALSKY: So, this is John from DOE, 14 

### so, the last two points were questions two and three 15 

### from the APGA submittal under the installation costs 16 

### section. 17 

### MR. FRANCO: So I will very briefly go 18 

### through these next few points because we will have 19 

### subsequent slides. We do take into account 20 

### combustion and air vent for direct vent installations 21 

### and we will go through the fractions in the next 22 

### slide.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### We do go through concealing vent pipes for 2 

### indoor installations, so this is the case where you 3 

### might have your furnace installed in a closet, you 4 

### have to go through some other part of the living area, 5 

### and that might not be something that you want to do, 6 

### so, you want to conceal that somehow so that it's 7 

### architecturally not something that's not that 8 

### beautiful, or good. 9 

### The next thing is, we take into account 10 

### orphaned water heaters. So there are some 11 

### installations that require relining of the chimney or 12 

### resizing for the condensing weatherized that replaces 13 

### an existing non-condensing, non-weatherized furnace. 14 

### In that case the orphaned -- what is called an orphaned 15 

### water heater, might not have the appropriate venting 16 

### to vent by itself, and so, in that case we do consider 17 

### additional vented costs just for the water heater. 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Nayes has a question 19 

### from online. He asked: have you taken into account 20 

### gravity vent furnaces that are still found in old 21 

### homes? 22 

### MR. FRANCO: Yes, thank you so much forThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### that question. Yes, we do. Sometimes the terminology 2 

### for that is natural draft but that is what we mean by 3 

### natural draft gravity forced furnaces, thank you. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs? 5 

### MR. SACHS: Age before beauty. 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Impetuousness before looks. 7 

### MR. WHITE: I'm neither. This is Chuck 8 

### White. I'm not sure, I think what your online caller 9 

### might be referring to is gravity furnaces not gravity 10 

### vent, not gravity draft where you don't have an 11 

### indoor blower, you have large duct work and there is 12 

### going to be significantly larger change out costs and 13 

### I'm putting words in his mouth but I think that might 14 

### be what he is talking about -- not natural draft. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you. Harvey go 16 

### ahead. 17 

### MR. SACHS: I have followed industry work 18 

### recently on the orphaned water heater issue. As I have 19 

### done that I have tried to find unsuccessfully some 20 

### simulations done in the report issued by GRI sometime 21 

### I believe before 1990 and if I am remembering this 22 

### correctly and I think it needs to be updated, thereThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### were two things associated with it. 2 

### One of them was that in the South was 3 

### impossible or extremely unlikely to cool even an 4 

### outlying chimney and they would likely have back 5 

### drafting from gas water heater on very cold days in 6 

### the orphaned situation and even as you move North it 7 

### was much more likely to be a problem depending on the 8 

### position of the chimney. 9 

### If it was an external chimney, masonry 10 

### chimney that is one three sides exposed, you have a 11 

### lot more cooling effect than if it was a central chimney 12 

### that descended through the center of the house and 13 

### had the last few feet through an unconditioned attic. 14 

### And I don't want to delay this but I think that we 15 

### need to have this kind of granularity to handle the 16 

### problem of orphaned water heaters. 17 

### My own instinct is that it is a less 18 

### frequent safety hazard than has been estimated in 19 

### worst case efforts. Others may feel that we need to 20 

### err on the side of safety, but I think that, in the 21 

### absence of good field data, an updated simulation 22 

### that breaks out locations in heating days isThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## important. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Jim? 3 

## MR. VERSHAW: Well, there's been a lot of 4 

## work done on venting of natural draft appliances and 5 

## a lot of work was done and created the venting guide 6 

## that's in the national fuel gas code and we all apply 7 

## it to our products. I think that you could look at 8 

## the type of product and look at the heating and 9 

## firing rate is and tell you what size vents you need. 10 

## And what happens is when you go from 11 

## 50,000 plus 100,000 to 50,000 it's so big they can't 12 

## draft so it has got to get smaller. And then if you 13 

## have single wall many times you have to go to double 14 

## wall on the connector. 15 

## MR. SACHS: I understand that, I have done 16 

## the relining for orphan water heater according to 17 

## code myself not often. 18 

## MR. VERSHAW: I've never done it, so... 19 

## MR. SACHS: I have more field experience 20 

## then but I am just saying that this is an area, and 21 

## you are absolutely right that quite often you will 22 

## need at least a single wall vent but I think that weThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## need to understand the orphaned water heater problem a 2 

## little better than I have and also look, and I hate to 3 

## bring up -- no I enjoy bringing up the learning curve 4 

## where again we have seen a fair amount of work based 5 

## on international experience leading to the hypothesis 6 

## that common venting solutions are quite likely to be 7 

## available and I think we need to understand those 8 

## better as well. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, we are going to 10 

## press on. 11 

## MR. VERSHAW: While you were talking I 12 

## read ahead and I think I answered it so I think I'll 13 

## wait on it. 14 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much. We will 15 

## go through here are the more details about the direct 16 

## vent, PVC venting. Here on this slide the motion 17 

## points are the fractions that we are assuming for 18 

## direct vent depending on the installation location so, 19 

## as you can see, they vary from 100% in the garage to 20 

## 33% in unconditioned basement and crawl spaces. 21 

## This comes from a consultant report that's 22 

## available in Appendix 8B of the 2011 DFR. This wholeThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### report is fully available in that appendix. This 2 

### answers again a question. 3 

### MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. So 4 

### there was in the section entitled questions not 5 

### previously answered by DOE question 8 so that we 6 

### point you to where you can get that consultant's 7 

### report. We will also put it in the new docket, the 8 

### current rulemaking docket. 9 

### MR. FRANCO: Just the next few rows give 10 

### you a sense of the fraction of installations by 11 

### region or nationally of these different installation 12 

### locations, so don't mix these two numbers up but if 13 

### some products, for example, the fraction of direct 14 

### venting installations by the North fractions of 15 

### installations you would get the resulting 58.7%, that 16 

### is direct vent. 17 

### So that's in the North on average we have 18 

### applied 58.7% of the installations we have applied 19 

### direct vent. Again this cost is individual to the 20 

### household and so if the household does have direct 21 

### venting, the cost is applied, if it doesn't, it won't be 22 

### applied. This number -- results for the rest of theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## country and the national so about 60% of households 2 

## are about roughly 59% of households have direct vent. 3 

## This is -- 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE 5 

## and we have a question from online from John Gibbons. 6 

## He wanted to know did you take into account freeze 7 

## protection of condensate removal and how much did you 8 

## include in the cost impact? Were you mindful of many 9 

## municipal codes that do not allow condensate draining 10 

## into simple sewer lines? 11 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much for that 12 

## question. We will be addressing that in a couple 13 

## more slides so I will just address that when we get 14 

## there. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik? 16 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I 17 

## guess I am just going to ask confirmation. So if the 18 

## unit -- if it is in a basement, the assumption is that 19 

## 67% of those will be direct vent installation for a 20 

## condensing product, right? 21 

## MR. FRANCO: That's correct. 22 

## MR. STANONIK: And you are assuming thatThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### same percentage if it is installed essentially indoors - 2 

### which might be a closet, alcove or utility room -- which 3 

### I would venture in many cases is going to be I would 4 

### say centrally located in the residence as opposed to 5 

### anywhere near an outside wall or whatever. 6 

### I guess I'm trying -- how did you come to 7 

### the conclusion that it is likely that a condensing 8 

### furnace installed in an indoor location like a closet, 9 

### alcove, and so on is as likely to now be direct vent 10 

### as one that is in a basement? To me, how did you get 11 

### to the conclusion it has the same likelihood, I guess? 12 

### MR. FRANCO: Yes, thank you for that 13 

### question. Note that the basement has a conditioned 14 

### space which is the 67% that they are referring to so 15 

### this would be similar to an indoor location because 16 

### you assume that it is conditioned so maybe it's like 17 

### a game room or some other -- had some other use 18 

### versus a basement that is in an unconditioned space 19 

### which has a different fraction 33%. 20 

### So the assumptions from the consultant was 21 

### if this is in the space that is kind of the 22 

### conditioned indoor space, the fraction would be a lotThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### higher so it would be 67% in those cases for example 2 

### the condition a basement, or indoor or attic which 3 

### are also in the conditioned attic. 4 

### When it is in the unconditioned space, such 5 

### as in a basement which is unconditioned, or crawl 6 

### space of an attic which is unconditioned, the same 7 

### fractions are 33% so we assume that is lower. 8 

### And then the garage-- we assume that's 100% 9 

### because of potentially the gas. 10 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik. But so the 11 

### conditioned basement right, but again if well -- I 12 

### think about conditioned basement and I still think of 13 

### a fairly open space. At least most basements actually 14 

### when you get down in the basement it is not for the 15 

### compartmentalized, even conditioned ones into small 16 

### rooms and stuff, and yet again the indoor installation 17 

### of use as you have described it there, those are 18 

### essentially, to a large degree, a confined space and so 19 

### to me with that very simplistic view the likelihood 20 

### of getting a direct vent installation into a confined 21 

### space installation of sorts -- compared to this 22 

### conditioned basement which I consider a wide openThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## space, I am still having a hard time saying that 2 

## those would be the same. 3 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that no, we 4 

## really appreciate your comments. Please provide 5 

## detailed description of what you would think we could 6 

## refine in terms of those fractions because that would 7 

## be really helpful. Obviously, there aren't any 8 

## surveys available for what these fractions should be 9 

## and these are assumptions currently based on this 10 

## consultant report so any feedback would be really, 11 

## really appreciated, thank you so much. 12 

## So, I will go kind of quickly through this 13 

## one. This relates to the concealing of the vent 14 

## pipes so we do take that into consideration. That 15 

## impacts a fraction of the installations that are 16 

## located in indoor locations. We assume that 50% of 17 

## indoor locations would have this impact so the 18 

## fraction impacted overall is 9%. The average cost is 19 

## $360.00 obviously this is a distribution of costs 20 

## depending on the vent length so if you have a short 21 

## length that you have to conceal the costs would be 22 

## much lower.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## If you have a much larger space then the 2 

## length they have to conceal, its cost would be much 3 

## larger. 4 

## This next slide summarizes the venting 5 

## that's required both in the non-condensing and the 6 

## non-condensing to condensing and to note that in the 7 

## non-condensing to condensing this mainly just deals 8 

## with the orphaned water heater. So let's go take a 9 

## look first at the non-condensing to condensing. 10 

## These are the fractions of installations 11 

## which is fairly low that are impacted by having to 12 

## redo or resize the venting going from non-condensing 13 

## to non-condensing. So the fraction impacted is about 14 

## total fraction is about 2.2% and is based on the 15 

## assumptions we have described earlier. 16 

## In terms of the fraction of the impact by 17 

## orphaned water heaters the fractions and the 18 

## differences are described here and the overall impact 19 

## is close to 20%. Most of the impact is having to 20 

## resize the orphan water heater or the last row and 21 

## this is just an assumption that we are making that 22 

## 40% of the time that has to be done and that impactsThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### 18% of installation. 2 

### The costs are also provided. Again, these 3 

### are average costs for the individual households. These 4 

### costs can be very, very different. In the case just 5 

### of the orphaned water heater, because this is vertically 6 

### vented, these costs could be fairly large. If you 7 

### are going through multiple floors, you have to do 8 9 

### 167 10 11 

### potentially the relining of those. We also take into 12 

### account the installation costs to new construction 13 

### and new owners. New owners would be people that are 14 

### potentially installing this equipment for the first 15 

### time in their home, doing maybe a major remodel or 16 

### people that are switching to another equipment that 17 

### didn't have a gas furnace previously. 18 

### These installation costs for 19 

### non-condensing include adding the whole vent system, 20 

### and if it is commonly vented then adding the vent -- 21 

### the commonly venting from the orphan water heater 22 

### from the commonly vented water heater.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### For the condensing non-weatherized gas 2 

### furnace we do account also for the PVC venting -- as we 3 

### have described earlier -- and we account for the plan 4 

### installation of the non-condensing commonly vented 5 

### gas water heater that now needs to be orphaned. So 6 

### we take into account that difference in cost. 7 

### MR. BROOKMAN: We have a question from an 8 

### individual on the line. I believe his name is Michael 9 

### Strom. Michael asks, how does collect seal venting 10 

### system fit in the analysis both in a configuration as 11 

### relining on a b-vent with a liner and using the 12 

### b-vent as air duct and a new pre-fab co-axial system? 13 

### MR. FRANCO: So thank you for that 14 

### comment. I believe that is something that we will be 15 

### addressing later in the later slides so when we come 16 

### to that point watch. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, I'll pull this out and 18 

### re-raise it later, keep going. 19 

### MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much so let's go 20 

### to the next slide. So now we are moving on to the 21 

### last component of the installation cost. This only 22 

### impacts condensing furnaces and this relates toThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## questions raised before about the condensate 2 

## withdrawal. 3 

## This flow chart represents our overall 4 

## methodology again this is done for each household 5 

## depending on different situations that occur. First 6 

## we take into account where the household is located 7 

## if it is location in a for example -- it's located in 8 

## an attic we do take into account freeze protection in 9 

## the case of a non-weatherized gas furnace. 10 

## If it has a central air conditioner we 11 

## take that into account in terms of whether we 12 

## consider if it has a condensate pump or not. The 13 

## central air conditioner might already have a 14 

## condensate pump in that location and an additional 15 

## one might not be required. 16 

## In the case of a condensate pump or heat 17 

## tape which is the case when we are dealing with 18 

## condensate freezing we do also apply the cost of the 19 

## electrical outlet. All of these different costs, 20 

## including the condensate piping and the drip pan, are 21 

## what are part of the condensate removal costs. 22 

## To address one of the specific questionsThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## that we had earlier, we do take into account the 2 

## condensate neutralizer in terms of neutralizing the 3 

## condensate acidity and this is applied a fraction at 4 

## a time. Costs are also added and this deals with 5 

## locations where this is a requirement by code. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik? 7 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. All 8 

## right, so if I am understanding your little flow chart 9 

## there, the only time you are considering the cost of 10 

## the condensate pump is if the house doesn't have air 11 

## conditioning, central air conditioning? 12 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct, that was -- 13 

## MR. STANONIK: And so that's a fundamental 14 

## error. That's an error, okay. I'll tell you right 15 

## now in this area where we live, where I live, where 16 

## everybody living in this area okay -- my air 17 

## conditioner the condensate is just drained outdoors 18 

## because it can be, it's not going to freeze up in the 19 

## summer. 20 

## But my condensing furnace because it 21 

## cannot take that condensate outdoors because it will 22 

## freeze had to have a condensate pump so it could pumpThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### 1 

## it to a place where I could drain it. So the issue 2 

## is not simply whether or not the house has a central 3 

## AC, but it is an issue of whether a household is 4 

## located in a climate zone where the condensate will 5 

## freeze and so it cannot use the same line as the 6 

## central AC might as you might incur in the South. 7 

## So I think you are underestimating on the 8 

## installation costs. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs? 10 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs and I 11 

## happen to live in North Virginia as I believe you do 12 

## and I do have a condensate pump which carries the 13 

## condensate from both the air conditioner where the 14 

## condensate drain is next to the furnace cabinet and 15 

## from the condensing furnace. I believe that that 16 

## will be typical for all houses for almost all houses 17 

## which have the equipment in the basement because you 18 

## have to pump it anyhow and in that case I don't know 19 

## if it is code approved or not but that small amount 20 

## of condensate is joined with the air conditioner 21 

## condensate and it moves to the common sewer. I had 22 

## to do the pump for the air conditioner so I am usingThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## this end pump for the furnace. 2 

## I suspect that that is far more common in 3 

## basement-equipped houses than we are assuming from 4 

## your remarks. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank? 6 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik. For a 7 

## point of clarification, a point well taken. In fact 8 

## my house you walk out and it's multi-level so I can 9 

## walk out of my basement out the back so, in fact, I do 10 

## have a free wall where my air conditioner does simply 11 

## drain, the condensate does just go outside. 12 

## But if it was totally a basement 13 

## surrounded by earth on all walls you are correct. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We have questions and 15 

## comments from, I believe, Jerome Ryan, and he says 16 

## because of the complexities of installing high 17 

## efficiency furnaces, has DOE contemplated the costs of 18 

## contractor education needs associated with this 19 

## ruling and how many contractors may need this 20 

## training and continues -- were these overhead costs 21 

## inputted into the model and can you comment about the 22 

## efficiency gains lost with its poor installations?The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. MCGRUDDEN: This is Charlie with ACCA 2 

## and I am being looked at by Ashley and John but I 3 

## think the question was to you so I would like to hear 4 

## what you have to say first. 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Perhaps you can address 6 

## the first part of the question which is more of a, you 7 

## know, what kind of training do you have today with 8 

## condensing furnaces and you know is there a need for 9 

## further training because I'm guessing that you are 10 

## currently giving training to your different 11 

## contractors or at least providing them that 12 

## opportunity so I guess what would be the differential 13 

## or would there be one? 14 

## MR. MCGRUDDEN: So this is Charlie, I 15 

## think a lot of the manufacturers through their dealer 16 

## networks, through the wholesalers provide a lot of 17 

## training especially on new equipment and new 18 

## technologies. We certainly do a lot of training for 19 

## quality installation and that looks at more than just 20 

## -- that looks at how to install the box properly duct 21 

## ceiling, sizing and on the case of CAC and heat 22 

## pumps, refrigerant charge and things like that.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## So you know, again, that's what I was sort 2 

## of looking to see what DOE had contemplated in terms 3 

## of what might be the costs or how would training play 4 

## into the analysis here because you may have a whole 5 

## subset of contractors who have never touched a 6 

## condensing furnace because they never had to. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, I think we should keep 8 

## moving on. For those of you that are interested, and 9 

## probably all of you are, shortly we are going to pause 10 

## for lunch in say ten minutes or so. 11 

## MR. FRANCO: Okay thank you yes, we are 12 

## almost finished with the installation costs so a few 13 

## more slides. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Just Charlie to your point, 15 

## I mean, I think that we didn't account for any 16 

## training that would be necessary, so I think what we 17 

## would be looking for from you and/or the other 18 

## contractors on the phone in and around the table 19 

## today would be you know what if any that delta would 20 

## be in terms of what is being done today versus what 21 

## might need to be done in the future. 22 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: And this is Charlie withThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## ACCA again and we will certainly put something to 2 

## that effect in our comments. 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks Charlie, Harvey 5 

## Sachs? 6 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and gee I'm 7 

## looking around the room for John, he's assured me 8 

## that a great deal of training on all sorts of 9 

## products is being done by his members. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay again proceed here. 11 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much for all of 12 

## those comments. We are going to now summarize. This 13 

## simply summarizes the condensate removal in terms of 14 

## the fraction impacted and the average cost of supply. 15 

## Obviously there is a distribution. This is available 16 

## in the TSD if you have any further comments please 17 

## let me know right now. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 19 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 20 

## Electric Institute. For the condensate pump you are 21 

## saying 25 and this is in the replacement, 25% of 22 

## installations without AC is that central AC is thatThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### what you are referring to? 2 

### MR. FRANCO: Yes, I can give that 3 

### clarification that's central air conditioners. 4 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: And again thank you for 5 

### that Steve Rosenstock, EEI and then are you assuming 6 

### that number stays static over the next 20 - 30 years 7 

### because most new homes are built with central AC so 8 

### wouldn't that percentage go down over time? 9 

### MR. FRANCO: We do segment our household 10 

### sample between replacements and new construction. In 11 

### terms of new construction, that fraction is already 12 

### lower. In terms of the current stock, it would be 13 

### higher so that is already taken into account, thank 14 

### you for that comment. 15 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 16 

### MR. MCGRUDDEN: Charlie with ACCA. On the 17 

### -- some of these I guess - adders, you call them -- have an 18 

### electric use implied themselves, is that factored 19 

### into the analysis? 20 

### MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much for that 21 

### comment. I was actually going to bring that up, I 22 

### forgot to bring that up earlier. For example heatThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## tape and the condensate pump do have in fact 2 

## electrical components that we will be discussing 3 

## later. They also have components in terms of 4 

## actually doing repair and maintenance to them and 5 

## those are accounted in the repair and maintenance as 6 

## well, thank you for that comment. Let's move on to 7 

## the next one. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let's wait right there, we 9 

## are moving on to a subject matter there so we should 10 

## pause and we have a comment from or a question from 11 

## Mark Nayes who asks, condensate pumps are far less 12 

## common in Minnesota. Mostly the AC and furnace 13 

## condensate drain to a floor drain, is there a worst 14 

## case scenario for installation costs? 15 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that comment. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: And Rick? 17 

## MR. MURPHY: Victor thank you for this and 18 

## I understand there is another phase of the life-cycle 19 

## costs we haven't gone into but just thinking about 20 

## what we have covered thus far, equipment costs, 21 

## installation costs, and how this comes into play and 22 

## the life-cycle cost analysis. I am looking at theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## life-cycle cost spreadsheet that was provided by DOE. 2 

## And the sensitivity that I think I'm 3 

## drawing from this on how important this information 4 

## is and good data, and it appears that installation 5 

## costs are a sizeable component of the overall 6 

## installed costs so when I look at the life-cycle cost 7 

## savings of a 92% versus an 80% of $39.00 over the 8 

## life of that piece of equipment increases in the 9 

## installed costs and equipment costs by $39.00 could 10 

## have a direct impact or additional savings or reduced 11 

## costs in equipment or installation costs could 12 

## actually increase that. 13 

## I just want to make sure I'm following the 14 

## logic here because to me that's a message to our 15 

## industry to ensure that we get these installation -- 16 

## these data on installation costs particularly right 17 

## because it can have a really important change in the 18 

## way the life-cycle costs actually comes out. 19 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 20 

## Yeah, we agree. We think all the data that is part 21 

## of this is important to get your feedback on so that 22 

## is why we are here today. If you have comments onThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## the data, what the values should be please submit the 2 

## data and we will consider. 3 

## MR. MURPHY: Thank you John, Rich, Murphy 4 

## again. I guess my point John, was with installation 5 

## costs and equipment costs, those are zero dollars 6 

## right so it is a wonderful impact to the life-cycle 7 

## cost savings in the present value analysis is that 8 

## correct? 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right so they are upfront 10 

## costs that's right and those time you get the savings 11 

## back at a discounted format, that's correct. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Final comments on the 13 

## foregoing slides? Mark? 14 

## MR. KREBS: I was just wondering at what 15 

## point would it be good to discuss the discount rates? 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: That's going to come later. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: If we click to the next 18 

## slide you are going to see why we are going to take a 19 

## break, so we are going to all eat and we are going to 20 

## get ready for this one when we come back. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: I am going to propose, we 22 

## usually take an hour for lunch but we -- I'm worriedThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### we are not going to get through all of this, I am 2 

### going to propose we do this in 45 minutes. It's now 3 

### 1:00 which means we resume at 1:45. For those of you 4 

### who are not familiar with the Forrestal Building 5 

### please make sure you have a badge, this room will be 6 

### secured. There are restrooms on both ends of the 7 

### hall, there's a big cafeteria down to the ground 8 

### floor. 9 

### (Whereupon the meeting recessed for lunch to 10 

### reconvene at 1:45 p.m.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So we are now by my 3 

## reckoning on slide number 51 and we are going to 4 

## proceed with Victor Franco life-cycle costs and 5 

## payback period analysis, installation costs by market 6 

## segments. 7 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much, this is 8 

## Victor Franco again. Welcome back -- thank you. So 9 

## I'll start this slide -- this slide is an eye sore 10 

## obviously it is a little bit better in printed form 11 

## hopefully you can read a little bit. It is not meant 12 

## to go over all the details it is just meant to kind 13 

## of be an overview of what we have discussed in terms 14 

## of the installation costs for non-weatherized gas 15 

## furnaces. 16 

## The main purpose here is to -- 17 

## MR. HUNT: Is that in the technical 18 

## support document somewhere? 19 

## MR. FRANCO: This is correct I was going 20 

## to point that out. This chart is in appendix 8D. 21 

## MR. HUNT: Thank you, Marshall Hunt. 22 

## MR. FRANCO: And there is a furtherThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## description about what this all means and everything. 2 

## I just wanted to point out a couple of things in this 3 

## to kind of summarize installation costs. One main 4 

## thing is that we disaggregate the cost between the 5 

## different markets as I have described earlier, the 6 

## building sample kind of has some of the 7 

## disaggregation. 8 

## So if we start from the REC sample which 9 

## is the yellow box then we consider whether the house 10 

## is going to be installing a condensing furnace. In 11 

## terms of whether the condensing furnace is already in 12 

## the house or not that's taken into account in these 13 

## boxes and there are fractions that you can actually 14 

## read and see what are the fractions that are the 15 

## segmentation of these -- again this is very detailed 16 

## and a lot of details is in Appendix 8D. 17 

## So the main point is that we do have a new 18 

## construction installation cost that is included, we 19 

## have the new owners, fractions and we have 20 

## replacements so it is all included in the analysis 21 

## and the fractions are provided here. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## We are going to move on because in the interest of 2 

## time but this is kind of take home homework for 3 

## everybody where you can read it better and look at 4 

## it. We tried to do I think of every type of 5 

## installation possible and we have it on this flow 6 

## chart so this is for your comment in the open comment 7 

## period. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Mark? 9 

## MR. KREBS: John Mark Krebs, did our end 10 

## time get extended to 5? 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: 5 o'clock, we have always 12 

## had 5 o'clock. It's hard to stop at 5 though just so 13 

## you know. 14 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. So I'll move on. 15 

## This is the mobile home gas furnace this explains the 16 

## cost that we used. We did take into account venting 17 

## and condensate removal where the condensing -- where 18 

## the descriptions are in appendix 8D and show how we 19 

## applied this for a mobile home, because this is 20 

## further answers any questions? 21 

## So now we are moving on to a new topic, 22 

## this is the energy use characterization. Some ofThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## these slides are moving a little bit quicker than 2 

## others. This is just kind of the purpose and method 3 

## so we are trying to determine the annual energy 4 

## consumption of non-weatherized gas furnaces and 5 

## mobile homes for the LCC analysis and payback period. 6 

## This is the equation to focus on because we are going 7 

## to be discussing these two parameters. 8 

## So first the pool energy use is segregated 9 

## between the fuel use and the electricity use so we 10 

## will be discussing these separately in the next 11 

## couple of slides. Before going into more detail 12 

## about the fuel use and we have already discussed this 13 

## a little bit, one of the most important components 14 

## for the energy use is the building sample. 15 

## RECS and c-becks which is also used in 16 

## this analysis does provide the energy use of the 17 

## building or the household and the -- we use that in 18 

## our analysis. They actually provide the heating 19 

## energy use. So to determine whether a household in 20 

## this survey falls under our analysis we use this 21 

## process. 22 

## First we determine if the furnace is usedThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### for space heating or the household uses a furnace for 2 

### space heating. If it doesn't, it's out of the sample 3 

### and we also see if the household is in a building or 4 

### a residential household that is less than 10,000. 5 

### That's our criteria for whether it is a commercial 6 

### furnace or something else and a residential furnace 7 

### at this time. 8 

### Finally we take into account the fuel type -- 9 

### whether it is gas or something else. Obviously, if it 10 

### is gas, it falls into what's currently being analyzed 11 

### and in terms of mobile home and non-mobile home RECS 12 

### provides what type of household it is. So obviously 13 

### the households are manufactured homes or mobile homes 14 

### fall into the mobile home gas furnace. 15 

### In terms of statistics, it is important to 16 

### point out that RECS 2009 has a lot bigger sample 17 

### size. It is about 12,000 households that are being 18 

### sampled from. Out of these 12,000, 5,700 fall into 19 

### households with a gas furnace and these are the 20 

### statistics that you can see here and the number of 21 

### buildings that represents. That represents almost 54 22 

### million homes in terms of RECS.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### This gives you a little bit more detail 2 

### about how we do, in terms of adjustments to the 3 

### building sample, so I'll go through this a little bit 4 

### quickly because in the interest of time but 5 

### essentially the one issue that we face is that 6 

### obviously RECS 2009 was the building sample RECS in 7 

### 2009 and we wanted to adjust that for the conditions 8 

### in 2021. 9 

### So what would be the distribution of these 10 

### furnaces in 2021 and also we are trying to adjust 11 

### these in terms of shipments so we are more interested 12 

### in terms of individual furnaces and where the 13 

### distribution is. So we make adjustments to the 14 

### building sample in terms of whether the household is 15 

### sharing a furnace -- this is the first one. The 16 

### buildings will -- multiple furnaces we take into account 17 

### as I have described. 18 

### Any growth in the market shares up to 2021 19 

### and we match the historical shipments that we have. 20 

### AHRI provided previously from 19 -- I believe it was 21 

### 1992 or '91 to 2003 shipments by state. So we used 22 

### this data to -- kind of -- that's our basis. We don't haveThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## any further shipments data segregated by state after 2 

## that. 3 

## We also take into account that there is a 4 

## fraction of households that is reported in RECS that 5 

## are actually weatherized gas furnaces which are not 6 

## part of this analysis so we tried to take that out of 7 

## the sample as well or weight them appropriately so we 8 

## don't overestimate. 9 

## And that's further discussed in -- 10 

## actually this is in appendix 7A. So the next is kind 11 

## of an overview of the whole energy use analysis. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: And we have a question 13 

## here. How did you handle the cost to remove a 14 

## non-condensing MHGF and install a condensing MHGF 15 

## with new venting and condensate removal? That's from 16 

## Terri Emol. 17 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much for that 18 

## comment. We actually passed that quickly just going 19 

## back to that slide 52. As you can see there's the 20 

## condensate removal that is taken into account. 21 

## Further details about the venting which is a little 22 

## bit different in mobile homes is described in theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## appendix 8B which is described installation. 2 

## Basically the venting in the mobile homes 3 

## is very short. Usually it vents up through the roof, 4 

## the condensing furnaces usually do the same thing 5 

## except that it is classic PVC usually and it uses 6 

## some type of concentric for the direct venting all 7 

## mobile home furnaces to be directly vented so those 8 

## are consideration that we are taking into account and 9 

## they are fully described in the appendix 8D. 10 

## So obviously I'll be describing this in 11 

## the slides just to give you a sense of all the 12 

## different factors that are taken into account and I 13 

## will go through these all in detail. 14 

## Again if we start from your right hand side there's a 15 

## fuel use and an electricity use, which I will be 16 

## describing separately. 17 

## Just to note that we do have a separate 18 

## standard for standby and we take that into account as 19 

## well. That's part of the electricity use component 20 

## and all of these different factors and data inputs 21 

## are part of this model. One of the main inputs again 22 

## is the RECS energy use data and we will be talkingThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### about that in more detail in the coming slides. 2 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik? 3 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I'm 4 

### sorry Victor, can you go back just for a second to 5 

### slide 55? So the very last bullet there are you 6 

### saying that this fact that DOE multiplied RECS by 7 

### weight of households so are you saying that for every 8 

### household in the North that had a furnace you are 9 

### assuming that 97% of those also had an air 10 

### conditioner, is that what that means? 11 

### MR. FRANCO: Yeah, I'm sorry. There's 12 

### probably -- it's not very well written in terms of what 13 

### that means. That is in relation to weatherized gas 14 

### furnaces and that's supposed to represent is that in 15 

### the North only 3% of furnaces are weatherized gas 16 

### furnaces so it's 3% of furnaces that have central air 17 

### conditioners.conditioners Based on shipments that AHRI has 18 

### provided we kind of -- 19 

### MR. STANONIK: Oh it's only weatherized? 20 

### MR. FRANCO: Only weatherized. 21 

### MR. STANONIK: Okay. 22 

### MR. CYMBALSKY: What is says is that thereThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## is all of these furnaces 97% are non-weatherized. 2 

## MR. FRANCO: Correct yes and I'm sorry 3 

## it's not -- 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Dave please? 5 

## MR. SCHROEDER: This is Dave Schroeder. 6 

## On the flow chart you have the AFUE of existing 7 

## furnace which looks like it is controlled by RECS 8 

## and historical shipment data, can you describe how 9 

## you make the determination on an individual home 10 

## basis what the AFUE existing furnace will be? 11 

## MR. FRANCO: That's actually a very good 12 

## question and that's a very important detail actually 13 

## from that analysis. So first, we actually have quite 14 

## a bit of historical data provided by AHRI about 15 

## historical shipments of condensing and non-condensing 16 

## even by efficiency, different efficiency levels. 17 

## Going back to I believe 1976, 1976-1977, 18 

## we used that data to kind of tell us what the 19 

## different levels would be of fraction of say in 1970 20 

## it would be 65 AFUE types of homes that have 65% AFUE 21 

## units. More recently we actually have segregated 22 

## also between condensing and non-condensing by region.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## So what we essentially do is we select the 2 

## household and based on all of that data that's 3 

## regional. We say, for example, you are in a region in 4 

## the North and RECS says that your household furnace 5 

## is 10 years old, so that would mean that it was 6 

## purchased in 1999. So there's a lookup table it goes 7 

## from 1999, and then it selects based on the likelihood 8 

## that it would be one of those efficiency levels -- so 9 

## say, 1999 -- 20% or 30% of furnaces are condensing. 10 

## So then it would select 30% of the 11 

## condensing, 70% at a time non-condensing. If it was 12 

## in the South maybe it is only 10% condensing and 90% 13 

## uncondensing. 14 

## MR. SCHROEDER: So is that the same as the 15 

## way the base case AFUE is assigned? With the 16 

## exception of this is now not old furnaces -- this is 17 

## current or future. 18 

## MR. FRANCO: That is absolutely correct. 19 

## Then in the base case which we will be describing 20 

## later we are projecting those fractions to 2021 by 21 

## region. 22 

## MR. SCHROEDER: Okay thank you.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question. 2 

### Obviously, provide any more detailed questions in your 3 

### comments as I said we are going through this very 4 

### quickly. 5 

### So fuel uses, obviously the most important 6 

### component, this is our methodology. Basically we have 7 

### multiplied burner operating hours by the input 8 

### capacity. To determine the input capacity, we base that 9 

### on the household characteristics, historical shipment 10 

### data of the input capacity and the model availability 11 

### in the AHRI directory. 12 

### Essentially we size the household to 13 

### different input capacity. To determine the burner 14 

### operating hours we basically determined the 15 

### building's heating load and divide that by the useful 16 

### output. What we mean by useful output is in terms of 17 

### the actual output that is the furnace in terms of the 18 

### fuel. For those of the electrical components give 19 

### off some heat and this is all based on the proposed 20 

### federal standard that we discussed yesterday, all of 21 

### these equations. 22 

### Details about this can be found inThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## appendix 7B of the TSD. Let's go into more detail 2 

## about the building heating load. So we are 3 

## calculating this for 2021. Just focus the most 4 

## important component is the actual what is listed here 5 

## as QYR which is the energy use that is provided from 6 

## RECS. 7 

## Let's see the energy use of the heating 8 

## component. We make adjustments to that later that I 9 

## will be describing. 10 

## We multiply that AFUE of the existing and 11 

## we add the blower heat which is the main heat useful 12 

## heat that is provided by the electrical components. 13 

## We do some adjustments which I will be describing and 14 

## we divided by the furnace count: some households have 15 

## multiple furnaces, so say if a household has two 16 

## furnaces their heating load is calculated to be 17 

## serving -- 50 million BTUs, we assume that each 18 

## furnace will be 25 million BTUs. 19 

## And if we are in a case where the furnace 20 

## is shared between multiple houses we multiply that by 21 

## the number of units served. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik?The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### MR. STANONKIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 2 

### Victor, I appreciate you might now be the RECS expert 3 

### but so RECS actually surveys a certain number of 4 

### households, actually surveys them right. Do you know 5 

### does RECS ask the question as to whether the 6 

### household has had significant, I'm going to call it, 7 

### envelope improvements? 8 

### MR. FRANCO: Thank you Frank for that 9 

### question. It does actually. It has quite a 10 

### significant, yeah, number of questions that I would ask, 11 

### yep. 12 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 13 

### Electric Institute. I guess especially kind of 14 

### following up on that for the building shell 15 

### efficiency especially for the new homes built between 16 

### now and 2021, what assumptions are you making in terms 17 

### of the improvement in terms of building shell 18 

### efficiency for the new homes? 19 

### MR. FRANCO: That is an excellent question 20 

### that leads actually to the adjustment factors. So in 21 

### addition to what I have described there are 22 

### adjustment factors which is the adjustment factor.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### 194 3 4 

### One of them is actually to the building shell 5 

### efficiency which is the second bullet so if you go 6 

### down to adjustment factors we adjust for the building 7 

### shell efficiency which essentially comes from the AO 8 

### 2014 what they are assuming between what is in RECS 9 

### 2009 and what would it be in 2021 and so there is an 10 

### adjustment and further details are on the TSD about 11 

### how the magnitude of that. 12 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: What section of the TSD 13 

### I'm sorry, I just wanted to double check. 14 

### MR. FRANCO: This would be in chapter 7 15 

### and the full actual information is in appendix 7B. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please? 17 

### MR. WHITE: Chuck White, I just wanted 18 

### clarification. You talk about shared units so we 19 

### have multiple occupancies with a single furnace 20 

### serving say two or three apartments so there are 21 

### different occupancies. 22 

### MR. FRANCO: That is correct, yes. TheThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## RECS has a variable that says if the homeowner has 2 

## knowledge about the building if the furnace is shared 3 

## between multiple units that is very common in 4 

## multi-family situations it could be two or three 5 

## units. 6 

## MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, Southern 7 

## Company. Your line here says adjusted for changes in 8 

## building shell efficiency and climate change in 2021. 9 

## Is that the change in the climate zone maps from 10 

## ASHRAE and ANSI or is it something different from 11 

## that? 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. So 13 

## all it is doing is taking the AEO forecast for 14 

## heating and cooling degree dates, well in this case 15 

## heating degree days and it is tracking population 16 

## migration over time. 17 

## MR. BRUNDAGE: So it is adjusting for 18 

## climate migration and percentage in each climate zone 19 

## not changing climate? 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Correct. 21 

## MR. BRUNDAGE: Okay, thank you. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes please.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### MR. WHITE: One quick follow-up I've been 2 

### encouraged to say. This is Chuck White, PHCC. I am 3 

### pretty sure sitting here I don't have the books in 4 

### front of me but the mechanical codes prohibit mixing 5 

### return air from sleeping quarters from other 6 

### occupancies so if you have multiple apartments with a 7 

### common furnace then you are going to replace this 8 

### according to code, then you are going to have to now 9 

### put in three furnaces and three systems and I am 10 

### pretty sure without my code books in front of me but 11 

### I am pretty sure that is the case. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you. 13 

### MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that comment. 14 

### So the last adjustment factor here to discuss is that 15 

### we are adjusting the climate conditions in 2009 to 16 

### average climate conditions which we basically assume 17 

### to be the last or more recent 10 year from NOAA data 18 

### climate based on the heating degree days so each 19 

### RECS household has a heating degree days and we had 20 

### just got on the region to the 10 year average. 21 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Quick question Steve 22 

### Rosenstock, EEI. So are you including 2014 -- the polarThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## vortex -- in this analysis? 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for the question 3 

## Steve. 4 

## MR. FRANCO: This goes up to 2013, 2014 5 

## wasn't available for this analysis. 6 

## Okay so this slide actually summarizes the 7 

## results that are coming in for the fuel use. So here 8 

## I just wanted for you to see visually the comparison 9 

## in the table between the RECS, CBECS data in terms 10 

## of the fuel use that is reported there versus our 11 

## calculated values in 2021 for the baseline. 12 

## So this would be for the 80% furnace. So 13 

## as you can see there is a significant difference 14 

## decrease because of these adjustments that I 15 

## described earlier including for example, building 16 

## shell efficiency. I also provided the median in 17 

## value to get a sense of the distribution but as you 18 

## can see there is this distribution is pretty wide, 19 

## kind of has a long tail, you can kind of get a sense 20 

## of all we are dealing with a large building sample 21 

## and it provides this distribution. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Paul Haydock from Carrier,The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## who is joining us online, asks a question and the 2 

## question is how is blower heat determined? 3 

## MR. FRANCO: I'll be addressing 4 

## electricity, which will deal with a little bit the 5 

## blower heat in the next -- so I just discuss that in 6 

## the next slide. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 8 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question. 9 

## Blower heat in terms of -- basically we take into 10 

## account the furnace fan electricity use. We assume 11 

## that -- as well as the current test procedure assumes 12 

## that all of the electricity use coming from the 13 

## blower is useful heat so we incorporate that into the 14 

## useful heat component of this calculation for the 15 

## fuel use. 16 

## Next we will be describing the electricity 17 

## use. So there's two main components in terms of the 18 

## electricity use. There's the active mode and the 19 

## standby. So what this means is the active mode is 20 

## when the furnace is on, the standby is when it is 21 

## off. The standby component is important in terms of 22 

## the other standby and off mode standard.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## So let's separate those two. First we 2 

## have the active mode. So we have three main 3 

## components, we have the electrical components that 4 

## are part of the furnace these include the blower, the 5 

## inducer fan, the electronic condition, those 6 

## components. We also include auxiliary components and 7 

## this relates to the question that we had earlier. 8 

## This is -- we include the heat -- the 9 

## condensate pumps in here as well. Finally we take 10 

## into account that there is differential electricity 11 

## use of the fan during non-furnace operation. What 12 

## this means is that if the fan is used during the 13 

## cooling period or as a continuous fan or as kind of 14 

## providing some air the circulating fan, it is also 15 

## taken into account. 16 

## We made the same assumptions as we did for 17 

## the 2014 furnace fan final rule to determine this, so 18 

## it is consistent. Going back to the electrical 19 

## component because this was the question before -- in 20 

## terms of the furnace fan, we make the same assumptions 21 

## that we did in the 2014 furnace fan rule and we take 22 

## into account that there are a lot of -- a significantThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## number of households that have high static pressure 2 

## and their electricity use is significantly different 3 

## than would be assumed if you would just use for 4 

## example the test procedure assumptions about static 5 

## pressure. 6 

## So that's already taken into account and 7 

## that is consistent with the 2014 furnace fan rule. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Victor we have a question 9 

## and a comment from Mark Nayes who is joining us 10 

## online. Mark, we probably have you unmuted at this 11 

## point. 12 

## MR. NAYES: Yes I was just going to make a 13 

## comment again on the multiple -- the single furnace 14 

## serving multiple occupancies. That is against code, 15 

## it is a health safety issue that you are not ever 16 

## going to see that. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you, echoing 18 

## Chuck's comment thank you. 19 

## MR. NAYES: Yes he is absolutely correct. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Frank Stanonik? 21 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. And 22 

## again I am going to apologize, I am going back one orThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## two slides. So you did recognize that, if you will, 2 

## that the heat coming off the blower is useful heat 3 

## but I'll say certainly for a non-condensing furnace 4 

## that's actually installed in the conditioned space 5 

## shouldn't you be counting any of the electric 6 

## consumption that occurs during operation as heat to 7 

## the space? 8 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct, that is 9 

## accounted for in the analysis that is further 10 

## described in appendix 7B. 11 

## MR. STANONIK: Oh okay, so okay, I can talk 12 

## lower okay. 13 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes sir, I just wanted to 14 

## focus on the blower because it is the biggest 15 

## component but you are correct. 16 

## MR. VERSHAW: Victor, Jim VerShaw, 17 

## Ingersoll Rand. I have been trying to figure out how 18 

## -- what you used for blower power. I saw on the 19 

## earlier flow chart it was average blower power and 20 

## how you determined what it was in heating and cooling 21 

## and standby. I couldn't quite figure it out. 22 

## I looked at table 7B.3.1 that says furnaceThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## fan motor consumption by product type and furnace fan 2 

## size. Is that heating or is that cooling or what? 3 

## MR. FRANCO: The furnace fan power has to 4 

## be determined both for the heating use for the 5 

## cooling, usually it is higher for the cooling and for 6 

## the continuous fan so there is actually three 7 

## operating modes that we are considering. We did the 8 

## same assumptions as we did in the 2014 furnace fan 9 

## rule so the -- we take into account the sizing of air 10 

## conditioner, the sizing of the heating and what the 11 

## power would be. 12 

## MR. VERSHAW: So if you took a range of 13 

## static pressure is that right? 14 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct. 15 

## MR. VERSHAW: You took a range of static 16 

## pressures and then you must have checked typical 17 

## furnace that would give a certain blower, so if the 18 

## cooling -- so how does 7B.3.1 -- how does that work 19 

## into what you did? What are those powers? 20 

## MR. FRANCO: Right, yes. Thank you for 21 

## that clarification. These are just for the heating 22 

## because --The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. VERSHAW: So these are heating. 2 

## MR. FRANCO: These are just heating yes. 3 

## MR. VERSHAW: Okay now we are talking 4 

## about using the new AFUE test procedure which if you 5 

## have a -- and that's for 2-stage if you have got more 6 

## than the 58% ratio, you are only testing low speeds 7 

## so it should only be low speed. There's no way in 8 

## the world that a 5 ton can almost have a thousand 9 

## watts at low speed heating. 10 

## Is this what you used for heating? I 11 

## think we can get a lot, lot, lot, lot, lot lower than 12 

## that. Longer hours but a lot lower. 13 

## MR. FRANCO: I appreciate it and it is 14 

## actually -- it should be listed they are both the 15 

## high fire and low fire. What's listed here and it is 16 

## not quickly labeled, it is just the high fire. The 17 

## low fire would be -- 18 

## MR. VERSHAW: High fire doesn't make any 19 

## difference. 20 

## MR. FRANCO: It would be significantly 21 

## less in the X13. 22 

## MR. VERSHAW: Well what went into theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## analysis? 2 

## MR. FRANCO: So similar to what we did in 3 

## the 2014 analysis we have two values, we have the 4 

## high fire and low fire. 5 

## MR. VERSHAW: Is there any way we can get 6 

## that? 7 

## MR. FRANCO: That's up to -- 8 

## MR. VERSHAW: I have another. Now, you 9 

## guys are saying that there is a 5% higher power usage 10 

## by condensing furnaces over non-condensing furnaces, 11 

## but yet the FER rule says it's 7% or 8% if you look 12 

## at the two curves, you know the intercepts are about 13 

## 8% apart and I am wondering why you chose 5% here. 14 

## MR. FRANCO: That's the -- I would have to 15 

## look at what you are comparing to. 16 

## MR. VERSHAW: Remember the rule is FER is 17 

## equal to .44 times something plus a number and the 18 

## other one was non-condensing and the condensing was 19 

## .44 times capacity plus a different number, so these 20 

## same slopes, the curves are apart by 8% -- 7 or 8%, 21 

## but you just said it was 5% more for condensing and 22 

## these are supposed to be kind of averages, I don'tThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## understand though how those two are different. 2 

## MR. FRANCO: I really appreciate that. 3 

## What we need to do is we need to clarify that section 4 

## a little bit more. It's very condensed so we can 5 

## provide other details. Everything is consistent with 6 

## the 2014 if you go to that rule you will see all of 7 

## the numbers actually the actual values of what we 8 

## used for different -- 9 

## MR. VERSHAW: And those are actually in 10 

## the technical document? 11 

## MR. FRANCO: In the technical document -- 12 

## MR. VERSHAW: In the technical document 13 

## spreadsheets? 14 

## MR. FRANCO: No it is in the technical 15 

## documentation but we could provide that. 16 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll get it back to you. 17 

## MR. FRANCO: We will get that back to you. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Krebs? 19 

## MR. KREBS: Yeah this is the one I told 20 

## you I was going to hold you too Victor remember, okay 21 

## I'm holding you to it. So in order to answer the 22 

## question basically we have to bring in the wholeThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### furnace fan rule which I guess I just want to express 2 

### at this point you know how frustrating that is. 3 

### It is no longer bifurcated it is 4 

### trifurcated or maybe it is quadrifurated I don't 5 

### know, something like that. But it certainly, you know, 6 

### the complexity of this rule is just, you know, 7 

### compounded because of those factors and just for the 8 

### record and in that record for the furnace fan rule 9 

### AGA submitted testimony that shows comparison to 80% 10 

### furnace and a 93% furnace okay, that's not 92 it's 93 11 

### so you know a little difference there so what they 12 

### are saying is that electric uses and kilowatt hours 13 

### for the 80% was up 191 and the 93% it was 687. 14 

### Now that's a little bit more than 5% I 15 

### estimate without breaking out my calculator but you 16 

### know and I'm not saying this is a typical case. They 17 

### are not saying it either what they are saying is it 18 

### came out of the AHRI's database and you know and on 19 

### top of that is this whole issue of static pressure 20 

### and the duct work, the typical duct work as you call 21 

### them that really you know reads crumby duct work 22 

### because typically they are crumby.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## And so what is that impact you know if you 2 

## could lay it on a table, what would in some average 3 

## worst case average and best case maybe as far as the 4 

## static pressure component from the condensing furnace 5 

## itself that is additive to that static pressure 6 

## component of the duct work you know and your papers 7 

## you did you know good, average and typical or 8 

## something like that. 9 

## You know something similar where it is 10 

## laid out to where people can see what is happening so 11 

## we don't get frustrated, having to resort back to the 12 

## furnace rule and that TSD, you know, I think 957 pages 13 

## of TSD is sufficient in my opinion so I would like to 14 

## keep it there. 15 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that comment, 16 

## we will definitely clarify that. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 18 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 19 

## Electric Institute. I am also looking at table 20 

## 7D.3.1. There is a part that says furnace fan size 21 

## ton I think you are saying that is really the air 22 

## conditioners size that's combined with it so threeThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## tons is typical kind of shipment weighted average. 2 

## You are saying 467 watts for non-condensing, not 3 

## weatherized gas furnace and then 490 watts for the 4 

## condensing, that's at the high value right, that's at 5 

## the maximum heating load? 6 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct. 7 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: And for the low speed or 8 

## the low load what are the values, half of that, 9 

## one-quarter of that, what are we talking about just 10 

## in terms of relative and then I will have a follow up 11 

## question. 12 

## MR. FRANCO: Okay, they are almost half 13 

## they are about 60% of that. If you had access to the 14 

## spreadsheet there is just to point out if anybody has 15 

## access there's a worksheet that is called Energy Use 16 

## Calcs and in that sheet there is a table that lists 17 

## those values. 18 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: And then I just want for 19 

## point of comparison for the fans that they are 20 

## replacing, for the older fans you know for the -- 21 

## I'll say the floor standards, what percentage savings 22 

## are we talking about in terms of wattage for bothThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## high and or low you know? How much of a reduction 2 

## already for -- I know you are talking about fuel 3 

## switching but even this rule itself is significant 4 

## reduction in electricity uses so I am just kind of 5 

## curious of a general ballpark percentage. 6 

## MR. FRANCO: Just to clarify, you are 7 

## comparing a furnace with a PSC motor currently on 8 

## the market compared to the 2014 standard? 9 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yeah I'll say a 2019 10 

## motor versus a 2015 motor, what would be the relative 11 

## savings about 20%? 12 

## MR. FRANCO: On average it was between 30 13 

## and 40%. 14 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: 30 and 40%, thank you. 15 

## So these values are already down, thank you. 16 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes, correct. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We have a comment from Paul 18 

## Haddock, maybe it's a question. How are the blower 19 

## on and off delays handled between non-condensing and 20 

## condensing furnaces? The 103 standard designs 21 

## shutter off delay for condensing that it does for 22 

## non-condensing.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. FRANCO: Yes we do have blower on/off. 2 

## I'm trying to take a look if I can answer the 3 

## question. We will get back to that in the future. 4 

## So here are the standby and the standby 5 

## takes into account the burner operating hours, 6 

## according to operating hours and also the continuous 7 

## fan operating hours as well. So here in terms of the 8 

## non-weatherized gas furnaces AFUE standards this is 9 

## the overall result in terms of fuel use and 10 

## electricity use. We have decided the results between 11 

## the national North and rest of country. 12 

## So I'll stop a little bit in case there is 13 

## any questions because this is kind of the conclusion 14 

## to the energy use. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Jim? 16 

## MR. DELASKI: I don't understand why 17 

## things go down like they do and then back up but I 18 

## think that I don't know enough about what went into 19 

## it and so once you get me that maybe I will 20 

## understand it or I will be able to ask a smarter 21 

## question. 22 

## MR. FRANCO: Yeah let me point out oneThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### that might be an obvious -- you can see 98 there's a 2 

### negative value there. That's a different technology. 3 

### We are assuming that that is already at kind of the 4 

### max tech ECM multi-stage modulating that usually more 5 

### operating hours associated with electricity and 6 

### that's why you see a negative value on that one. 7 

### We will try to clarify so you can provide 8 

### comments. 9 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik? 10 

### MR. STANONIK: Well, this particular slide 11 

### this will be the first opportunity so I am going to 12 

### raise the question. So in the NOPR in the description 13 

### of the trial standard levels as presented there is 14 

### identified at the trial standard levels 1 and 2 15 

### looked at the North and rest of the country 16 

### separately and then when you get to trial level 17 

### standards 3, 4 and 5 it appears that it only looked 18 

### at national average. 19 

### And yet, if you look at this slide, the rest 20 

### of the country which I will choose to call the South 21 

### the estimated consumption of just the fuel use is 22 

### about 70% of what is the national average and so IThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## guess I am trying to understand why trial, well 2 

## basically based on the way the trial standard levels 3 

## are presented why didn't DOE do the separate analysis 4 

## of the effect of condensing furnace requirement on 5 

## the South? 6 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: They did. 7 

## MR. STANONIK: But that is not what the 8 

## standard levels are. 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Frank it is a national 10 

## standard but it is evaluated you know North, South 11 

## and everything but it is a national 92 it is not an 12 

## 80/92. 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE. 14 

## So it's just how we are talking about the levels 15 

## right, it is the difference between the first couple 16 

## that you mentioned there's a regional standard in 17 

## there which would have different requirements for 18 

## different regions of the country versus a national 19 

## standard. 20 

## It doesn't necessarily mean that national 21 

## averages were used, they are still built off the same 22 

## fundamental analysis but it is the difference betweenThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## the TSL considering your regional standard versus a 2 

## national standard. 3 

## MR. FRANCO: This is Victor Franco. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Michael McCabe? 5 

## MR. MCCABE: Michael McCabe. Victor is 6 

## there any rebound effect build into the life-cycle 7 

## cost analysis that is the different efficiency 8 

## levels, the building heating load the same? 9 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question 10 

## and in the LCC analysis we do consider rebound 11 

## effect. We assume that the economic benefit of the 12 

## increased comfort is equivalent to the energy 13 

## consumption so we don't think in terms of economics, 14 

## that into account when we go to the NIA analysis we 15 

## do take into account the rebound effect and we will 16 

## talk about the magnitude of that when we talk about 17 

## the national impact analysis. 18 

## MR. MCCABE: Would you repeat again what 19 

## is central to life-cycle costs? Because when you 20 

## start talking about the economic benefit -- 21 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you, what I mean by that 22 

## is a consumer is using the furnace longer to provideThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## greater comfort. One way to actually put it in 2 

## economic terms what that consumer benefit is, is just 3 

## to say that it is equivalent to the actual energy 4 

## cost. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE -- 6 

## let me step in. I think what Michael is asking is 7 

## will people adjust their thermostats if they buy a 8 

## more efficient piece of equipment is that your 9 

## question? The rebound you are looking for? 10 

## MR. MCCABE: Yes. 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Did you use an adjustment 12 

## factor? 13 

## MR. FRANCO: Not for the LCC but the NIA. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So not in the LCC. 15 

## MR. MCCABE: Thank you. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Dave? 17 

## MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave Willingham 18 

## with Allied Air. Just to clarify on the electrical 19 

## consumption -- until you get to TSL4, electrical 20 

## consumption appears to be going down as given the 21 

## fact that fan energy goes up with higher efficiency 22 

## and you have condensate pumps and heat tape on 90%The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## can you explain that? 2 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes, thank you and I will be 3 

## clarifying that in the documentation but that is an 4 

## important question. What actually happens is that we 5 

## are assuming that the input capacity of the furnace 6 

## is constant for all of the efficiency levels, so the 7 

## actual operating hours decrease once you get to 8 

## higher efficiencies so just to put that in more 9 

## concrete. 10 

## Say you have an 80% efficient furnace and 11 

## you are 80 million BTUs, your output is 64. Once you 12 

## go to a non-condensing we are assuming that you are 13 

## using the same input capacity. In this analysis and 14 

## that is the reason why you kind of see this effect. 15 

## MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Allied. 16 

## Just a follow up question -- you know the load is the 17 

## load is the load and wouldn't you size it according 18 

## to output capacity not input capacity to -- I mean if 19 

## your heat load is whatever it is you will size it 20 

## according to the output that is needed to maintain 21 

## the load not the input. 22 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you and please submitThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## comments in that regard. We would really appreciate 2 

## that. What is happening in this analysis we have 3 

## gotten some contractor feedback from the stakeholder 4 

## input that contractors what they do is they generally 5 

## just size based on what's the product so please put 6 

## your comments that so if we need to correct it we 7 

## will correct that. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Neil go ahead. 9 

## MR. LESLIE: Neil Leslie, GTI. I would 10 

## like to get a little more clarification on that last 11 

## item related to the use of a rebound effect in the 12 

## NIA but not in the LCC. Could you explain -- first 13 

## of all, do I have it correct that there is no rebound 14 

## effect included in the LCC analysis spreadsheet is 15 

## that -- I just want to make sure I'm hearing it 16 

## correctly. 17 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct yes. 18 

## MR. LESLIE: And there is a rebound effect 19 

## 17% I don't remember what it is exactly, whatever 20 

## that rebound effect would be somewhere in that part 21 

## of town in the national impact analysis, I just want 22 

## to make sure I have all of that exactly correct,The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## right? 2 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct, yes. 3 

## MR. LESLIE: Okay whatever that number is, 4 

## I don't necessarily care exactly what it is but so I 5 

## would like to know why it is in the NIA but not in 6 

## the LCC? 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Let me try to tackle the 8 

## consumer choice here. So if I am a consumer and I am 9 

## evaluating an efficiency of 80 and an efficiency of 10 

## 92 and I'm comparing what the energy use of those two 11 

## will be, I don't think I'm factoring in the fact of I 12 

## am going to adjust my thermostat higher, around 92 13 

## versus 80 when I do the math in my head, so I think 14 

## fundamentally that's why you would separate that. 15 

## Now once the unit is in your house you 16 

## could react to the fact that your marginal cost of 17 

## heating your home has changed and then mentally you 18 

## will go and say wow it's a lot cheaper, maybe I'll 19 

## inch it up a degree or two. So fundamentally that's 20 

## why you would do it that way. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We have a question from 22 

## Everett Shorey from online. His question is why isThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## the mean electricity use in the ELs 1 through 4 727 2 

## to 957 kilowatt hours per year while the median is 3 

## 330 to 355 and the mean for EL0 is also 349 4 

## (referring to the numbers in the LCC model on the 5 

## website). 6 

## MR. FRANCO: I didn't fully get the first 7 

## part, could you just repeat that? 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky is saying we 9 

## need to get back on that one and then another 10 

## question from Paul Haddock. Is the blower power 11 

## consumption of 90% the same as 92 the same as 95% or 12 

## does DOE add additional power needed for higher AFUE 13 

## levels? 14 

## MR. FRANCO: So that's a great question. 15 

## We do have higher power use in terms of going from 16 

## non-condensing to condensing. We don't have in terms 17 

## of going from say 90 to 92 a difference in the 18 

## electricity consumption but it is higher between 19 

## non-condensing and condensing. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Frank Stanonik? 21 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I'm 22 

## going to follow up Neil's question and I understandThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## what John said but if in I would say in just the same 2 

## way and I don't disagree with this that DOE is 3 

## looking at RECS data to kind of see okay what is 4 

## consumption that actually occurs in the field, I 5 

## think that in terms of life-cycle cost if in fact that 6 

## consumer when they do get a more efficient furnace 7 

## decide that they want to have their house warmer they 8 

## in fact have changed what they will pay on a monthly 9 

## basis for the fuel they have changed the relationship 10 

## of the benefit in cost of reduced energy cost 11 

## compared to what they paid for that product and I 12 

## disagree with the conclusion that well that increase 13 

## comfort has a monetary value which we will just 14 

## assume totally balances what they have accepted as a 15 

## higher bill. 16 

## I think that's a little bit subterfuging 17 

## the life-cycle cost analysis because that consumer in 18 

## fact whether they knew it or not they just extended 19 

## out how long it is going to take them to pay back 20 

## what they paid for their new furnace, the higher 21 

## efficient product. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew deLaski?The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. DELASKI: I disagree with you Frank. 2 

## If a consumer chooses to pay $10.00 for something it 3 

## is because they value that something at $10.00. In 4 

## fact economic theory will suggest that that is the 5 

## minimum they value it at. In fact if we are able to 6 

## do some willingness to pay evaluation I would find 7 

## this is a very conservative number. 8 

## People turn their thermostat up because 9 

## they value that. If Gary Fernstrom was here who has 10 

## been at many of these proceedings, he has made this 11 

## point time and time again in these proceedings that 12 

## when a consumer chooses to use something more because 13 

## it is more efficient because the consumer values 14 

## that. 15 

## And for us to say well in the consumer 16 

## economic analysis say well we are just going to throw 17 

## that out and ignore that value would be a disservice 18 

## to the consumer for getting a value. Now as an 19 

## energy efficiency advocate I wish we were getting the 20 

## energy savings but the fact is that consumers when 21 

## things are more efficient they use them more. 22 

## We can debate the rebound effect. It existsThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## undoubtedly. The size of it is widely debated. The 2 

## Department says 15% in this proceeding. I think it's 3 

## probably too high. Steve Nadel's work says it should 4 

## be 1 to 12% is the range that is discussed in the TSD 5 

## but to say that that has no value to consumers, 6 

## because they are now warmer you know that's just 7 

## ignoring the practice of consumers and I also think 8 

## it's ignoring the fact that it is probably a very 9 

## conservative estimate because they probably evaluate 10 

## more but they didn't have to pay more. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Jim? 12 

## MR. VERSHAW: Jim VerShaw. I guess the 13 

## reason it comes up is we are looking at energy 14 

## savings that we know aren't exactly right because of 15 

## the rebound effect whether it is whatever and -- 16 

## MR. DELASKI: And that's why I think that 17 

## it is proper that the government accounts for it in 18 

## the NIA. So when we talk about the quad saved we are 19 

## not counting it. 20 

## MR. VERSHAW: So when you do the simple 21 

## payback or the payback for the home owners, does that 22 

## include the rebound effect or not? I was making aThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## point by asking a question, so it's not in there so 2 

## if you look at that, if I remember right we are in 3 

## the 7 to 8 year payback for this rule not including 4 

## the rebound effect. So it's really 1 to 15% longer 5 

## than that, whatever that would be. 6 

## MR. DELASKI: I disagree because they are 7 

## getting value right, they are getting a value in 8 

## improved warmth. They are choosing to select. 9 

## MR. VERSHAW: Show another column with how 10 

## much they are spending more. 11 

## MR. DELASKI: And some consumers think 12 

## that's election and some don't so this is an average 13 

## value. 14 

## MR. VERSHAW: And they have a Crystal Ball 15 

## attachment for this thing they can do that. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Steve Rosenstock? 17 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 18 

## Electric Institute. I'll just looking at EL2 for the 19 

## national number going into this. We talk about on 20 

## the fuel use side 55 million BTUs for natural gas at 21 

## a dollar a therm that's $55.00 a year. On the 22 

## electricity side 13.9 kilowatt hours that's about 12The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## cents, national average it is about $1.74 per year. 2 

## So you add those up it is about $56.00 a 3 

## year. What percentage will consumers give back in 4 

## terms of rebound effect, that's a question I don't 5 

## know. I am sure there are a lot of studies that show 6 

## numbers all over the map like Andrew was saying but 7 

## in terms of will it make energy savings, cost 8 

## savings? No. Will it vent it? Yes. 9 

## How should it be accounted for? Right now 10 

## and in other rulemakings you know again I don't think 11 

## they accounted for rebound effect for like heat pumps 12 

## so you know to account for it here and not know their 13 

## products doesn't make, it's not really analytically 14 

## consistent. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Aniruddh? 16 

## MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, Goodman. Victor, 17 

## on this table with the 80's, are they all using the 18 

## BPM, the constant torque BPM motors? 19 

## MR. FRANCO: This would be actually X13. 20 

## MR. ROY: X13? 21 

## MR. FRANCO: X13 yes, okay. So moving on, 22 

## this is I think we had sufficient discussion.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: I think we have covered 2 

## these materials sufficiently we are going to move on. 3 

## MR. FRANCO: So there are three slides, in 4 

## terms of energy prices. If we could limit the 5 

## questions to the last slide in terms of energy prices 6 

## that would be good but let me know if you have any 7 

## questions. So basically this first slide provides 8 

## the references that we are using in terms of this 9 

## aggregated energy prices that we are using in the 10 

## analysis. 11 

## What I mean by that, is we have energy 12 

## prices for each household based on the region of the 13 

## country they are at and by month. The energy prices 14 

## that we use in terms of calculating energy savings 15 

## are marginal in terms of electricity and natural gas 16 

## and the values will be described later. 17 

## All the references in terms of getting 18 

## these values come from EIA data as it says here and 19 

## it is also in the TSD and the baseline -- the year 20 

## that we are using to start with is 2012 that's the 21 

## latest data that is aggregated by state for all of 22 

## these prices. Next after we have that disaggregatedThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## we use EO 2014 data to project the values into the 2 

## future from 2020 to 2040. 3 

## Then we use trends after that to project 4 

## the values after 2040. 5 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Can we comment? 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Please. 7 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 8 

## Electric Institute. For all the people here in the 9 

## room, this chart is showing an estimate of the real 10 

## prices, not the nominal prices. These are in 2013 11 

## dollars, so it is assuming that prices are going to 12 

## increase above inflation from 2015 to 2040 and I have 13 

## issues with that, that's another story. 14 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that comment. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Mark? 16 

## MR. KREBS: Yeah I have issues with that 17 

## too. 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. So 19 

## these are straight from the AEO, so you know we are 20 

## not forecasting prices that's not what we do in the 21 

## shop so you know this is the government projections 22 

## on energy prices which is what we use.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: So anybody that had 2 

## additional thoughts on this or their own projections 3 

## they can send them forward, Mark? 4 

## MR. KREBS: Yeah, well, you know the issue 5 

## is marginal costs, you know, these are marginal costs 6 

## and what you call marginal costs really aren't 7 

## marginal costs either. You know Steve Rosenstock and 8 

## I were in the room along with the President of APGA 9 

## Bert Kalisch when in 1998 when the whole concept of 10 

## consumer marginal energy rates was first hatched. 11 

## DOE draft report was issued and never 12 

## really published. LBNL has a web page on marginal 13 

## energy rates and you are still not doing it right. 14 

## It's tail block rates we are talking about okay, they 15 

## are mentioned in some of these papers that Victor 16 

## helped to offer but that is the right way to do it 17 

## and I understand it is difficult to do, you know to 18 

## track real tariff filings and look at the tail block 19 

## rates and how a change in consumption is -- comes 20 

## across to consumers in their utility bills but that 21 

## is the way to do it. 22 

## You know you have time to tear down 30The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## furnaces I think you have time to do this. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs? 3 

## MR. SACHS: Mark, this is Harvey Sachs. I 4 

## certainly understand where you are coming from. Your 5 

## advocates have chafed with the AEO forecast for many 6 

## years and I guess we sort of became reconciled to the 7 

## fact that they are on average equally detrimental to 8 

## everybody and that it is sort of -- well one of the 9 

## rules of the game like it is not 90 feet along the 10 

## baseline. 11 

## MR. KREBS: We had an advisory committee 12 

## you know that I was on and Steve was on it and you 13 

## know this is one of the things that we actually 14 

## concluded you know and came across you know all in 15 

## favor of doing this and it hasn't been done, you know 16 

## and that was 1998. I think it is time to start doing 17 

## it. 18 

## MR. SACHS: Its past is so mundane. 19 

## MR. KREBS: I appreciate you trying to 20 

## inject some humor in this but what I am talking about 21 

## is looking after my customer's best interest, okay it 22 

## is a big deal you know. We are talking you knowThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## marginal true tail block rates are about 50% of what 2 

## DOE has forecast and then those get inflate for 21.5 3 

## years, it is a major impact okay and I don't think 4 

## it's doing consumers any favors at all. 5 

## MR. SACHS: I understand that but I want 6 

## to make one other comment. This is Harvey. We have 7 

## seen some major churn in how rates and tariffs are 8 

## set, particularly on the electric side over the last 9 

## couple of decades and that is the inherent 10 

## uncertainty as we try to look forward to those two 11 

## decades and we have been comfortable and I am happy 12 

## to look at that analysis and would appreciate the 13 

## chance to read it because I know it has changed my 14 

## life. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, we are moving on now. 16 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for all of those 17 

## comments. So just one to go to the next slide. This 18 

## is the average prices applied in the analysis. As 19 

## you can see the average is very different for the 20 

## marginal cost and appendix the energy price of -- 21 

## which I believe is appendix 8E we do provide 22 

## comparison between tariffs analysis we did get fromThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## APGA some tariffs and we do a comparison of those to 2 

## our analysis so if you want to read on that please 3 

## provide comments in that regard. 4 

## Next we will be discussing repair and 5 

## maintenance costs of repairing different components 6 

## in the furnace. You do this by different components 7 

## for example the fan blower is one of the components 8 

## we consider, failing during the lifetime of the 9 

## furnace. The cost and frequencies come from various 10 

## sources including RS means, manufacturer literature 11 

## and a survey from American Comfort. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Jim VerShaw? 13 

## MR. VERSHAW: Jim VerShaw. So Victor, are 14 

## the 2252 for a 90% for all the 90's 90 plus furnaces, 15 

## that's the adder each year that you just assume this 16 

## furnace will have for 21 years? 17 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct. 18 

## MR. VERSHAW: So it's $22.52 a year times 19 

## 21 and that is what they will spent on the air? 20 

## MR. FRANCO: And this is an average value 21 

## again, some households, if for example, their furnace 22 

## fan fails and that is a significant cost. SomeThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## others -- 2 

## MR. VERSHAW: What would the failure rate 3 

## that you assume for the furnace fan and for the 4 

## controls and all of that, do you have that, is that 5 

## written out? 6 

## MR. FRANCO: That's written out in the TSD 7 

## I believe for furnaces it is around 40%. 8 

## MR. VERSHAW: You actually didn't have it 9 

## for furnace fans unless I had to back out -- you had 10 

## how much of a cost to fix the fan blower $274.00 and 11 

## 3.43 hours of labor but it doesn't say what the 12 

## failure rate would be. Maybe it would be nice to 13 

## know what that considered because I did turn in 14 

## failure rate numbers on the difference between PSCs 15 

## and DC motors under the FER and these are actual 16 

## numbers that we are seeing and also I turned in what 17 

## I thought replacement motors should cost and I'm not 18 

## sure you can get a replacement X13 motor for $274.00 19 

## as a homeowner. 20 

## And I turned in that information also and 21 

## you might want to look back at that and see if that's 22 

## matching that. And then the other thing that I amThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## wondering about is we are using a brand new power 2 

## supply in this level, in the TSL in the 92% level or 3 

## maybe all of them. What was the failure rate on 4 

## that? 5 

## And if it fails how much does it cost to 6 

## replace it, is that factored in? 7 

## MR. FRANCO: In terms of the fan component 8 

## -- 9 

## MR. VERSHAW: Switch and power supply. 10 

## MR. FRANCO: So we don't have that -- 11 

## MR. VERSHAW: We don't have it as a 12 

## product we only have a transformer. 13 

## MR. FRANCO: Yeah, we don't have it as a 14 

## separate component. 15 

## MR. VERSHAW: I'm really -- whenever you 16 

## use new technology you probably have a learning curve 17 

## right. And probably how steep do you want the price 18 

## of it, well it is going to be way up here and a high 19 

## failure rate at the beginning and it is going to get 20 

## better over time so I think you need to take a look 21 

## at that. I don't even know where they are used or 22 

## what they are, to tell you the truth I'm not a doubleThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## EE so it would be interesting to find that out. 2 

## MR. MURPHY: Can I just go back to 3 

## marginal prices for a second and something that 4 

## Victor you mentioned that you had said that you had 5 

## use of tariff information that you got from APGA. 6 

## AGA also submitted a marginal cost study as well that 7 

## actually indicated about a 25% differential between 8 

## average and marginal. Did you incorporate that in 9 

## your analysis as well? 10 

## MR. FRANCO: We did do the comparisons for 11 

## our results between those two sets of data, yes, it 12 

## is included. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. 14 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. So 15 

## on the maintenance cost you do talk about additional 16 

## maintenance costs associated with condensate 17 

## withdrawal. So to my very limited knowledge in this 18 

## area I do not believe that the condensate pump that 19 

## in some cases will be required because of the 20 

## installation of a condensing furnace that the 21 

## lifetime of the pump is the same as the lifetime of 22 

## the furnace so does this include in fact some pointThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## the full replacement of the condensate pump? 2 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes, it includes both the 3 

## condensate pump and the neutralizer filter in the 4 

## main -- 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We have a question from 6 

## online: Terry Small asks why is the repair cost for 7 

## manufactured housing gas furnace so much lower than 8 

## for non-weatherized gas furnace? 9 

## MR. FRANCO: We'd have to get back to 10 

## exactly the reason. One reason is they are actually 11 

## using different components which is there is a PSC 12 

## motor instead of X13 motor as the baseline, that's 13 

## probably the primary reason. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Dave Schroeder? 15 

## MR. SCHROEDER: This is Dave Schroeder. 16 

## It looks like from the TSD that proprietary data was 17 

## used to determine maintenance frequency across the 18 

## board. Is there any way that that source data can be 19 

## made available? 20 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question I 21 

## was actually going to get to that. So we do use this 22 

## 2008 American Home Comfort survey data to --The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## especially for the maintenance cost. We try to use 2 

## as much publicly available data as possible. In this 3 

## case this was the only source. We do in the appendix 4 

## related to the main sensory -- we do put in all of 5 

## the data that we actually use so these are aggregate 6 

## values that are coming from the data. 7 

## We do publish those we are allowed to 8 

## publish that. We don't have access to the raw data 9 

## but that is what we use is published and how it is 10 

## actually used in the analysis. We combine that with 11 

## RECS data which actually gives us how often an owner 12 

## for example will maintain if he does maintain the 13 

## furnace regularly or not and how we use American 14 

## Comfort survey is kind of just aggregate that in 15 

## terms of years. So once RECS tells us if the owner 16 

## is going to maintain it regularly American Comfort 17 

## survey kind of gives us a sense of is that yearly, is 18 

## that every couple of years is that every five years. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky? 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: John from DOE. So there 21 

## was a question that was just asked was part of the 22 

## APGA submission and that's under questions 1 and 2The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### under the related to maintenance costs so that's the 2 

### answer to those two questions. 3 

### MR. BROOKMAN: We have a question, a double 4 

### question from Jim Moore, Jim who is online, Jim Moore 5 

### asks has DOE used more frequent fan motor failures 6 

### with the move away from PSC motors or are you using 7 

### PSC failure rates with the new motor technology? 8 

### MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question. 9 

### We are actually being consistent with the 2014 10 

### furnace rule and we are having an increased failure 11 

### rate and that is consistent with the final rule. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay Rick? 13 

### MR. MURPHY: Victor just going back to the 14 

### reference to [American] home comfort study and I recall 15 

### trying 16 

### to look through it in my notes that there was a 17 

### reference that in its cost and other areas of the 18 

### home comfort study that we are trying to gain access 19 

### to but I believe there was also in addition to the 20 

### [American] home comfort study that relied on energy 21 

### consultants 22 

### to develop some numbers so what I am trying to get atThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## was it strictly the data or the home comfort study or 2 

## was it a combination of that along with other input 3 

## and if so how do we get access to the intelligence 4 

## that came out of that. 5 

## MR. FRANCO: I really appreciate the 6 

## comment. Whenever we get input for example from 7 

## expert consultants or some consultants, we do publish 8 

## what their assumptions how we use that data. In the 9 

## case of maintenance it is mainly to validate more or 10 

## less based on the understanding of the approach. 11 

## It is not in terms of providing any 12 

## additional data. In terms of the actual methodology 13 

## as described there as I described we used American 14 

## comfort surveys for data, we use directly from that 15 

## survey we did publish there and data that we are 16 

## getting from RECS which is publicly available we do 17 

## publish the fractions as well there so we try to not 18 

## have anything that you can't get access to as much as 19 

## we can. 20 

## But please provide any comments if you 21 

## find something that is -- you think that is not well 22 

## understood and we will try to answer that.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Neil? 2 

## MR. LESLIE: Neil Leslie, GTA. There's 3 

## one part of that question, the first question I just 4 

## want to make sure I don't remember hearing an answer 5 

## to and that is why was only one year of the study 6 

## data used when there were four years of data used in 7 

## other parts of the analysis. 8 

## MR. FRANCO: And I appreciate that 9 

## question. We had direct access during that time to 10 

## just one survey of that data when we looked back and 11 

## looked at the other surveys the data was very 12 

## similar, so potentially it could be used multiple 13 

## years. For this we only had access for that one 14 

## single year the data for this particular variable. 15 

## So now we are going into the inputs 16 

## lifetime and discount rates. So first, let's discuss 17 

## lifetime. We use a distribution of lifetimes we use 18 

## the method that uses survey data that comes from 19 

## American Housing Survey and RECS. American Housing 20 

## Survey provides how many furnaces are installed in 21 

## the U.S. 22 

## It's fairly robust survey that isThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### conducted by HUD [Housing & Urban Development] and Census 2 

### every couple of years so that gives us a better number in 3 

### terms of total furnaces that are in the nation and we use 4 

### also RECS data in terms of the age of the equipment that is 5 

### currently being installed to give us also a sense of 6 

### this distribution. 7 

### We combine that with manufacturer's 8 

### shipment data. The manufacturer's shipment data is 9 

### data that has been provided by AHRI throughout the 10 

### years and also is publicly available on their 11 

### website. 12 

### For this analysis we actually did a 13 

### modification based on the previous analysis. In 14 

### discussions with AHRI we were able to understand 15 

### better what the shipments included. The shipments of 16 

### the AHRI do not include weatherized gas furnaces so 17 

### they actually provided for about a 6 or 5 year 18 

### period. Recent period they provided weatherized gas 19 

### furnace shipments. 20 

### Adding those shipments to the overall 21 

### shipments give us a slightly lower value in terms of 22 

### annual lifetime compared to the 2011 DFR and theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## Census question from AGA partly. 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. So 3 

## this would be question 8 from the APGA docket 4 

## material relating to the switching logic. 5 

## MR. FRANCO: In addition to that we 6 

## provide an appendix in the lifetime appendix we do 7 

## provide the different references that we used to 8 

## compare. These are 15 references that we compare 9 

## this lifetime value and we believe that this is an 10 

## agreement to those other references consistent with 11 

## this value. 12 

## This is in appendix 8G. Next we discussed 13 

## the discount rates. So discount rates are used to 14 

## convert operating costs, lifetime operating costs 15 

## into present value. We use another publicly 16 

## available data source that comes from the Federal 17 

## Reserve Board it's called a survey of consumer 18 

## finances. For this analysis we used multiple years 19 

## from 1995 to 2010. It comes out every three years. 20 

## We disaggregated these by -- the discount 21 

## rates by income for this analysis. This is different 22 

## from the 2011 analysis, as you can see they vary.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## This is the average, we do have distributions and the 2 

## distributions are available in the discount rate 3 

## appendix in chapter 8. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 5 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI 6 

## please refresh my memory the highest income group is 7 

## 1 or 6 just out of curiosity? 8 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that 9 

## clarification. The highest income group is 6, low 10 

## income is 1, the lowest income group. 11 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 12 

## MR. FRANCO: These are percentiles just to 13 

## clarify so income group 1 represents zero to 20% and 14 

## the highest income group is 90%. 15 

## Next we will be discussing the base case 16 

## efficiency distribution. There is actually two 17 

## slides for this. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Mark? 19 

## MR. KREBS: I apologize but this is 20 

## another big one on my list and the last big one for 21 

## the record. Discount rates, okay there was in the 22 

## furnace fan rule which I did review, at least theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## filed comments, there was a very interesting one from 2 

## George Washington University regulatory study center 3 

## and she took a look at discount rates in depth and 4 

## with a bunch of economists that she cited showing 5 

## discount rates that should be like in the range of 6 

## 100% maybe higher. 7 

## And these rates totally reverse the 8 

## aggregate or individual consumer savings, however you 9 

## want to cut it and you know you go back to 3% and you 10 

## go back to 7% you know but as I recall you know and 11 

## you quote the OMB but as I recall OMB circular 8094 12 

## also recommends using other discount rates to show 13 

## the sensitivity of the estimates to the discount rate 14 

## assumption. 15 

## That's a direct quote out of my Laclede's 16 

## comments for the DFR. And my question then is you 17 

## know how have you actually looked at you know these 18 

## situations for a growing part of American population 19 

## who is dropping out of the middle class it seems. You 20 

## know where is that? 21 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much for those 22 

## comments. So just to clarify I think the 3% and 7%The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## that you are referring to is what is applied in the 2 

## NIA analysis and we will be discussing that later. 3 

## In terms of what is supplied in terms of the LCC the 4 

## consumer level, these are the rates derived from this 5 

## analysis for the descriptions in the TSD of how that 6 

## is derived. There is a distribution so there are 7 

## some households that have in the low income group 8 

## very high discount rates that are applied when their 9 

## household is sampled. 10 

## You can look at the distribution and you 11 

## can see that it's significant so there is a 12 

## distribution but these are just average values. 13 

## MR. KREBS: Okay so the worst case kind of 14 

## gets blended in with the average and everything is 15 

## averaged. 16 

## MR. FRANCO: No, no, every household is 17 

## applied a specific discount rate so there are 18 

## households that have 100, 150% discount rate. 19 

## MR. KREBS: All right. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Nayes who is joining us 21 

## online has a question or a comment, Mark go right 22 

## ahead.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. NAYES: Yes going back to that filter 2 

## and maintenance replacement for the costs -- if I put 3 

## in a high efficient you know standard filter that is 4 

## supposed to last a year that's $50.00 right there, 5 

## that's more than we have got down for the maintenance 6 

## cost. How am I supposed to pay a guy to go out there 7 

## and perform maintenance on the system? 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, okay Mark thanks. 9 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: And we also have a comment 11 

## or a question from Everett Surey. It is how do you 12 

## deal with the fact that the AHS survey data if 13 

## analyzed by the NAHB shows that the average tenure in 14 

## a house is under 20 years and well under that in the 15 

## South and West. 16 

## MR. FRANCO: We don't -- we analyze just 17 

## the furnace in terms of the person occupying it could 18 

## be over the years multiple owners, some of your 19 

## comments. 20 

## Okay so moving on to the next topic. The 21 

## base case efficiency distribution is a major 22 

## component of the LCC and this is the last in terms ofThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## the LCC components before going to fuel switching 2 

## which will have a huge amount of slides so there are 3 

## two slides here. The first describes more or less 4 

## the process that we are using and the data sources. 5 

## So, the base case efficiency distribution 6 

## describes -- reflects the projected market shares of 7 

## products at different efficiency levels in the 8 

## absence of standards. This absence reflects that not 9 

## all consumers purchase products at the current 10 

## minimum efficiency level and that it recognizes that 11 

## some consumers already purchase products at a higher 12 

## efficiency level. 13 

## DOE projected its market shares for 2021 14 

## based on historical shipments data. Some of it 15 

## provided by AHRI, also we have the sources here also 16 

## Energy Star shipments for the years that we didn't 17 

## have data from AHRI directly, we had historical data 18 

## from 1980 to 2009. From 2009 we used Energy Star 19 

## data, 2012 and also we disaggregated between 20 

## efficiency levels of the condensing side from the 21 

## latest AHRI certification directory. 22 

## So the results are shown here in terms ofThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## disaggregated base case efficiencies for different 2 

## markets. You can see that there are differences 3 

## between North and South and between replacements and 4 

## new construction. We did get feedback from 5 

## manufacturers in the manufacturer interviews but 6 

## there were differences in terms of new construction 7 

## in terms of the venting market share so there is a 8 

## larger fraction of furnaces that are below 95 as you 9 

## can note in the North in the new construction versus 10 

## the replacement. 11 

## So for example here you have 32% in new 12 

## construction and 15% at 92 level. The overall 13 

## fraction of condensing is fairly close between the 14 

## two but distribution between the efficiency is 15 

## different. 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay so we think this 17 

## answers from the docketed questions priority question 18 

## A and then questions 1 through 4 related to the base 19 

## case AFUE efficiency from the docketed APGA 20 

## questions. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you John. Frank 22 

## Stanonik?The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. The 2 

## one thing I am not tracking here in the previous 3 

## slide so you had shipment data from us non-condensing 4 

## condensing for quite a few years. I understand you 5 

## had historical shipment by states from us back up to 6 

## 2003 or something like that but then you slipped in 7 

## here that you are still using somehow our directory 8 

## listings as a basis for shipments distribution. 9 

## Where does that fit into this table? 10 

## MR. FRANCO: Sure thank you for that. I 11 

## went really quickly through that. Basically we have 12 

## all the information about the fraction of condensing 13 

## versus non-condensing. We don't have for a lot -- I 14 

## think we only had one for 2002 - 2003 year -- a 15 

## disaggregation between the different efficiency 16 

## levels in terms of condensing so to disaggregate 17 

## between them we used the latest AHRI directory. 18 

## MR. STANONIK: So are you presuming that 19 

## the same distribution of listings by efficiency 20 

## translates to shipments? 21 

## MR. FRANCO: Partly. Let me explain it's 22 

## more detailed in TSD but maybe I can do it simplyThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## here. For the North replacements we do exactly but 2 

## then we do modify that for the North and the South. 3 

## The Norths new construction and the South as well 4 

## because of manufacturer input in terms of those 5 

## markets. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 7 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 8 

## Electric Institute. I'm just kind of curious you 9 

## know I am looking at the 95% numbers and it says 10 

## replacement 45% in the North and 5.5% for 90 AFUE and 11 

## you know but you look in the South and the numbers 12 

## are a lot closer. They are flipped for some reason 13 

## and I am just kind of curious the reason for the 95% 14 

## market having such high market shares is that because 15 

## of an incentive program or is that because they 16 

## already have 95% AFUE furnaces existing by 2021? 17 

## MR. FRANCO: That is correct. One of the 18 

## main drivers we think in the future especially is the 19 

## Energy Star program. Energy Star currently has 95% 20 

## levels for the North and 90% level for the South. 21 

## So the South is mainly in the lower AFUE 22 

## in the North you are going up to 95 because of thatThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## incentive to go to 95. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Aniruddh? 3 

## MR. ROY: So on slide 68 you mentioned the 4 

## AHRI directory as being the source as well as the 5 

## shipments collected by AHRI so how were you able to 6 

## purge in your shipments analysis the PSCs and the 7 

## 80's and forecast the shipments past 2021 based on 8 

## that data? Because that data also captures that 9 

## market. 10 

## MR. FRANCO: We are only considering in 11 

## terms of condensing market and yeah there are some 12 

## PSCs but we are only looking at the AFUE in terms of 13 

## that. We assume that the market still will be just 14 

## the AFUE would be similar distribution, just looking 15 

## at the AFUE of those units, not the motor. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Nayes has a comment and 17 

## he is joining us online, Mark go right ahead. 18 

## MR. NAYES: Yes I was just going to 19 

## comment on those percentages on replacements in the 20 

## North. At the time we had the very large federal tax 21 

## credit and we also had some very nice gas incentives 22 

## for high efficient furnaces and those are veryThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## accurate to what we have been seeing but I am just 2 

## kind of wondering in the last couple of years they 3 

## have had a much more robust selection of 98% 4 

## efficient furnaces and we are moving much closer to a 5 

## 20% replacement rate on those styles. 6 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for your comments. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, appreciated that. 8 

## MR. NAYES: You are welcome. 9 

## MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, Goodman. Just a 10 

## follow up question so even though historically there 11 

## hasn't been a slight downward trend in the shipments 12 

## it still is showing an upward curve from 2021 onwards 13 

## without any factoring of any dip in shipments. 14 

## MR. FRANCO: Let me go back to the next 15 

## slide I think it will help explain and it will also 16 

## deal with part of the AGA's comments in this regard. 17 

## So let me show this is the projected base case 18 

## efficiency distributions during the analysis period 19 

## as again we are starting at 2021 so if you can see 20 

## from here from the historical data there is a trend. 21 

## The trend increases more dramatically between 2005 22 

## say and about 2011. AfterThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## that there is a decrease. Now between 2011 and 2012 2 

## is based on Energy Star shipments and we don't -- 3 

## Energy Star doesn't actually have all the shipments 4 

## so we had to actually scale those shipments up so 5 

## those numbers might be slightly lower than they are 6 

## so if AHRI has more accurate data that would be great 7 

## for those two years but based on Energy Star data our 8 

## current assumptions in terms of the regional values. 9 

## We are using the projections between 1992 10 

## to 2004 which we assume is the period before 11 

## incentives. We are not using to project in the 12 

## future the -- we are not using the data between 2005 13 

## and 2011 because we believe that has a lot of 14 

## incentives which might not translate into the future 15 

## and this is the result of that. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay Rick? 17 

## MR. MURPHY: Rich Murphy, AGA. Just don't 18 

## understand the logic where this has significant debt 19 

## from 2012 is it to 2013 and I believe the information 20 

## that was shared established attributable during a 21 

## period of time where there were incentives in the 22 

## market. Is the conclusion that there was no marketThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### transformation impact of those incentives during that 2 

### period of time? 3 

### MR. BROOKMAN: I see Frank Stanonik has a 4 

### comment. 5 

### MR. STANONIK: Well I will let him answer 6 

### first. 7 

### MR. FRANCO: Yes there is but there is 8 

### still -- this is a fairly large lifetime for furnaces 9 

### to do a full market transformation so there is kind 10 

### of evolving but it is fairly small in our 11 

### projections, but at least comment if you think that 12 

### is accurate. 13 

### MR. STANONIK: Okay Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 14 

### You probably think you need to recognize that from 15 

### 2009 to 2012 the data comes from the shipments 16 

### collected by Energy Star. Okay, so in fact, 2009 17 

### before 2010 -- so they were collecting the peak and then 18 

### it looks like the bottom dropped out right so the 19 

### question I have is in that period in that -- what is 20 

### it 4-5 year period -- did you check because I don't know 21 

### myself -- were -- did the Energy Star program always 22 

### have the same number of furnace manufacturerThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## participants? 2 

## In other words were you getting the data 3 

## for those 4 or 5 years from the same group of 4 

## manufacturers? 5 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question 6 

## and this is a great point. So as I mentioned it had 7 

## to do some assumptions especially for the data 8 

## between 2011 and 2012, let me explain. In 2011 9 

## Energy Star changed their criteria for the North to 10 

## 95% so they don't have any shipments data for 11 

## instance sold in the North between '90 and '95 and 12 

## basically their assumptions are just for the 95. 13 

## They also changed the criteria in terms of 14 

## a fan efficiency so that dropped a lot of furnaces 15 

## that were sold as condensing but didn't meet 16 

## efficiency requirements. In addition to that they 17 

## also added some constraints in terms of the cabinet 18 

## losses so that further decreased so actually the 19 

## value in 2012 that we got the data from Energy Star 20 

## was only 9% from that and previous data we increased 21 

## that we believe to I think it was 34% based on what 22 

## we think the market in the North and everything.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## We would appreciate more accurate date if 2 

## it is available. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank keep going. 4 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonick, one follow 5 

## up, two points. So in fact that drop there in a 6 

## sense may represent a worst case but in fact it is 7 

## without question incorrect okay. But the other point 8 

## I want to make and again I'm not going to contest the 9 

## question about we had this huge peak the years 10 

## preceding 2011 or so no question some of that was 11 

## driven by significant tax credits okay. 12 

## But in terms of this chart okay, so I had 13 

## let's -- again I'm not going to have the exact 14 

## number. Let's just say that in the last '08 through 15 

## '10 or '11 I -- these tax credits introduced an 16 

## additional I'll just make up a number 5 million 17 

## condensing furnaces to the market okay. So I'm 18 

## looking at this chart let's say 2010 so I start to 19 

## think in 2030 those extra 10 million or whatever 20 

## number I said furnaces are going to be replaced and I 21 

## would say that the correct assumption is that once 22 

## you have got that condensing furnace into thatThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## consumer's home that is what they are going to put in 2 

## again, okay. 3 

## So even though I would certainly say you 4 

## can't take that line to say my thing is going to do 5 

## this I would say in your future projections you have 6 

## got to account for that blip because that blip will 7 

## in fact in this case raise the boat a little bit, 8 

## rising tide raises or something like that. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Dave Schroeder? 10 

## MR. FRANCO: I appreciate that comment, 11 

## thank you. 12 

## MR. SCHROEDER: Hi, this is Dave Schroeder. 13 

## So I understand certainly the rationale for pulling 14 

## out data during that incentive period as being 15 

## influenced by something outside of the market but it 16 

## seems like there are some very good reasons to 17 

## exclude the points immediately after that period as 18 

## well so if you extrapolated 2005 through or sorry 19 

## 2000 to 2005 out into the future by the time you get 20 

## to 2021 it's essentially impossible to sell a 21 

## non-condensing furnace in the northern part of the 22 

## United States.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## Any way my point is I don't really 2 

## understand the rationale for including those two data 3 

## points that are after the big peak particularly 4 

## because you have had some inconsistencies it seems 5 

## like in the source data. 6 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that so we are 7 

## in terms of the growth we are just considering 1993 8 

## to 2004 in terms of the growth and our starting point 9 

## is 2012. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Dave Schroeder has a 11 

## follow-up. 12 

## MR. SCHROEDER: Another comment and this 13 

## relates to both this chart and back to discount rates 14 

## and forward to discount rates actually. So you could 15 

## count every house you analyze, you calculate an LCC 16 

## savings done before correct. So from that that 17 

## actually implies also a discount rate that consumers 18 

## would tolerate and that number is going to be 19 

## significantly different possibly than the discount 20 

## rates you assigned in the previous maybe two slides 21 

## ago and I think you are about to tell us that you 22 

## used the payback period of 3 years for switchingThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### 1 

## options which applies another discount rate so you 2 

## actually have homes, one individual home with three 3 

## different discount rates what it look like. 4 

## MR. FRANCO: I believe there is only 2, 5 

## there's the 1 to bring back to the present value and 6 

## then we will discuss the fuel switching I didn't 7 

## understand the third. 8 

## MR. SCHROEDER: So payback period or 9 

## payback periods that consumers would tolerate and 10 

## aren't inherently related to discount rate you have 11 

## assigned discount rates a few slides ago. The LCC 12 

## numbers in combination with these shipment numbers 13 

## imply a second discount rate, right because you have 14 

## got a payback period from the LCC analysis and then 15 

## in switching you have a 3 year payback period so 16 

## that implies a different discount rate. So one home 17 

## is 3 discount rates. 18 

## MR. FRANCO: Please submit your comments. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Dave? Neil are you in the 20 

## same contents stream? 21 

## MR. LESLIE: I am in the draft in this 22 

## part of it.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### 1 

## MR. WINNINGHAM: Neil could I just 2 

## interject one note on Dave's comment as a follow on? 3 

## MR. LESLIE: Mine is a clarification more 4 

## than anything else. I am very confused as to what 5 

## is AHRI data and what purported over to the EPA data 6 

## on that chart. There's a 2013 data point diamond 7 

## shaped and you are saying to 2012 I don't know where 8 

## the 2013 data wound up coming from and I don't know 9 

## whether the 2009 data point is from AHRI data or it 10 

## is from the EPA data so I would just like to 11 

## understand the source of the specific data points on 12 

## that chart, that would be very helpful to me. 13 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much, let me 14 

## clarify again. Data before 2009 was provided from 15 

## AHRI in terms of the fraction of condensing and 16 

## non-condensing and that was actually provided by 17 

## region. After 2009 -- 18 

## MR. LESLIE: Wait on 2009? For the 2009 19 

## data plan it shifted, so up through 2008 is AHRI 20 

## data? I just want to make sure. 21 

## MR. FRANCO: Up through 2009, 2009 so 22 

## that's the relation to the previous rulemaking AHRIThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### provided data up to 2009. 2 

### MR. LESLIE: Up through 2009? 3 

### MR. FRANCO: Yes. 4 

### MR. LESLIE: Not up through 2008? So 5 

### 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013 then become a shift 6 

### in data sources to the EPA data source. I just want 7 

### to make sure that I have that. 8 

### MR. FRANCO: Let me clarify 2013 is a 9 

### projection number. 2012 is the last number that we 10 

### got from Energy Star, I'm sorry if I misspoke. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Dave, thanks for being 12 

### patient. 13 

### MR. WINNINGTON: Yes just to kind of 14 

### follow on to Frank's thoughts -- and I believe it was 15 

### the 2010-2011 timeframe -- EPA made a significant change 16 

### to their program that put a lot more burden of 17 

### testing as well as product use supplied so there may 18 

### have been some influence here that people just 19 

### dropped out and didn't report. 20 

### MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that, I did 21 

### mention that about the 2011-2012 values that's why we 22 

### needed to adjust them because of that.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE so 2 

## we have manufacturers and others in the room, are 3 

## there data that exists that we can get provided to 4 

## us? I mean I know the data exists so -- 5 

## MR. KREBS: That's what Neil was trying to 6 

## ask but you know he's not really educated. 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: He's more polite than me. 8 

## MR. DELASKI: I would just comment, this 9 

## is Andrew. The AHRI data is wonderful data and it 10 

## will be wonderful to have it up to date. I would 11 

## just encourage the industry to manufacturers, the 12 

## associations to submit up to date data and that would 13 

## really help the analysis undoubtedly. In the absence 14 

## of updated data, the Department has to do the best 15 

## they can with what is provided in the public realm so 16 

## I would encourage I see Dave nodding, I would 17 

## encourage all the manufacturers who are here to work 18 

## for the good of the Association to provide up to date 19 

## data. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: I believe Harvey is next. 21 

## MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs and Dave 22 

## Schroeder I think about my own life. I think thatThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## the switching thing is entitled to a different call 2 

## it payback it is a virtual number that is a proxy for 3 

## our uncertainties about the stickiness in consumer 4 

## behavior. I have done something very 5 

## non-cost-effective the last several years in keeping 6 

## my cable connection so the stickiness may well have a 7 

## different value than the capital investment decisions 8 

## and I would defend DOE for trying to develop a proxy 9 

## which I am darn sure is not perfect. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Krebs, I mean, pardon 11 

## , 12 

## me. 13 

## MR. KREBS: Close enough, we are among 14 

## friends. Einstein is credited with saying you know 15 

## solutions to problems should be as simple as possible 16 

## but no simpler okay and that's kind of where we are 17 

## at I think. You know I am looking -- I see all this 18 

## stuff and part of it is from this data base, part of 19 

## it is from another data base, you know I realize that 20 

## those big rebates for high efficiency furnaces 21 

## impacted this stuff, I realized that the crash, the 22 

## great recession whatever they called it had an impactThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## on shipments but why don't we just get the raw AHRI 2 

## shipment data for this period, for the period that we 3 

## know of and then we can deal with it. 4 

## Then we have something to talk about and 5 

## we are not you know, it is not all piece-milled 6 

## apparently like it is now. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Well we have heard an 8 

## additional treaty for the data to come forward 9 

## somehow. 10 

## MR. KREBS: It's just another way of 11 

## reiterating what Neil tried to say. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So now we are moving on 13 

## there, keep going. 14 

## MR. FRANCO: So this is a major piece of 15 

## the analysis there's quite a few slides to go through 16 

## in this analysis. 17 18 19 20 21 22The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay let's start back up. 2 

## I understand here at the outset Victor has 3 

## clarification. 4 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you yes there was a 5 

## question from N.J. in regard to the base case 6 

## efficiency distribution. Application in the LCC 7 

## spreadsheet and there was a spreadsheet there it is 8 

## disaggregated by 30 RECS, designated regions. 9 

## Actually RECS provides 27 to be more accurate. We 10 

## disaggregated an additional three, one of them is 11 

## West Virginia because the North has West Virginia 12 

## disaggregated so that is separately. 13 

## In the actual spreadsheet we list West 14 

## Virginia as part of another region but that was just 15 

## a misprint, West Virginia is a separate region. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So I just got the word from 17 

## Brenda that we need to leave this room at 5:00 sharp 18 

## so I want to encourage everyone's commenting to try 19 

## to keep their comments especially succinct so we can 20 

## make it through all of this material and so now back 21 

## to Victor. 22 

## MR. FRANCO: So there are a number ofThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## questions related to this part of the analysis and I 2 

## will try to answer as many of the preliminary 3 

## questions as possible and your questions as clearly 4 

## as I can. I will focus on three slides mostly and I 5 

## will go through the other slides fairly quickly. 6 

## So kind of the setup of the analysis is 7 

## that we did do product switching for this equipment. 8 

## In the analysis we assumed that -- 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks you, guys. Keep going 10 

## Victor. 11 

## MR. FRANCO: In the analysis, we assumed 12 

## that there is potential for switching when going from 13 

## the current standard to the 90 or above standard 14 

## levels. In that case, we would be going from 15 

## potentially from non-condensing situation replacement 16 

## situation we are going to condensing weatherized gas 17 

## furnaces is one of the options, the primary option. 18 

## And alternative options are electric 19 

## furnace and heat pump in terms of the electric 20 

## heating. In terms of cooling because of the 21 

## associated cooling and heating equipment you 22 

## potentially -- if you have a central air conditionerThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## you potentially could go to a central air conditioner 2 

## or you could go to an air handler plus a heat pump. 3 

## In terms of water heating, there is also 4 

## the potential for switching if you have an orphan 5 

## water heater we also analyze the potential for going 6 

## from a gas storage water heater to an electric 7 

## storage water heater. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Steve Rosenstock? 9 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 10 

## Electric Institute. As much as I would love to think 11 

## that the electric options were the only options that 12 

## is not true. I will try to be as brief as possible 13 

## for what Doug said. In my view, looking at this and 14 

## looking at the support document this is an incomplete 15 

## analysis. 16 

## There are other options that consumers can 17 

## choose from for example, oil fire non-condensing 18 

## furnaces, other alternative direct heating equipment, 19 

## room by room heating equipment, biomass, wood type of 20 

## heating system if they really wanted to spend a lot 21 

## of money. 22 

## In terms of the water heating systemThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## there's oil fired water heaters, there are solar 2 

## water heaters, there are instantaneous water heaters. 3 

## This is a very limited analysis assuming that 4 

## consumers only have basically one option or two 5 

## options at most and just simply is not true. 6 

## Therefore a lot of the numbers it is 7 

## really incomplete because it is assuming that 8 

## consumers will look at no other technology whatever 9 

## in terms of any sort of other -- all the impacts that 10 

## they only have a choice of these two and there is 11 

## nothing else out there and well there's other -- all 12 

## the other associated side effects. So most of this 13 

## section, anything on fuel switching in my mind this 14 

## is a totally incomplete analysis and all the results, 15 

## assumptions and results are erroneous thank you. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Dave Winningham? 17 

## MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave Winningham 18 

## with Allied Air. Very quickly and it may not fit 19 

## here but is there an extended repair versus replace 20 

## of product considered in this methodology? 21 

## MR. FRANCO: Could you clarify what you 22 

## mean by extended?The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. WINNINGHAM: People would choose to 2 

## repair their old inefficient product so to speak, 3 

## replacing heat exchanger versus incur the cost of a 4 

## new more efficient product. 5 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that 6 

## clarification. In this analysis we did not model an 7 

## extended repair as an option, please provide that in 8 

## your comment if you believe that that should be 9 

## added, thank you so much for that comment. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 11 

## MR. FRANCO: The next two bullet points 12 

## are related to slides that would be more specific so 13 

## I won't go into those until we get to those two 14 

## specific slides. 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I just want to point out I 16 

## think on this slide we tried to set up answers for 17 

## priority question C and question 4 in the related to 18 

## switching logic. 19 

## MR. FRANCO: In relation to that actually 20 

## I forgot to answer one of the questions. One of the 21 

## questions was if we modeled going from switching from 22 

## a non-condensing to a non-condensing in the base caseThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## in the LCC analysis and we did not model that. 2 

## We believe that for various reasons some 3 

## consumers in the base case decide to remain even 4 

## though it might not be the best option in going from 5 

## non-condensing to non-condensing so that answers one 6 

## of those questions. 7 

## The next few slides are basically just the 8 

## options, so I will just go really, really quickly 9 

## through these. As you can see these are the same 10 

## that we have described earlier just in graphically. 11 

## This further disaggregates how we use the analysis. 12 

## We consider whether there is commonly venting or not. 13 

## This is fairly complicated, it's -- I believe it is 14 

## fairly well explained in the appendix related to fuel 15 

## switching and please provide any comment. 16 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 17 

## Then I will ask it a different way, why didn't you 18 

## consider other options that are out there for 19 

## consumers? 20 

## MR. FRANCO: At the time we collected the 21 

## analysis these seemed to be the options that were -- 22 

## that most that would potentially be the ones thatThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## consumers would go to the most. Please submit 2 

## comments if you think that we should consider others. 3 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 4 

## What's that based on? 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. So 6 

## in your remarks before you mentioned that at least 7 

## for a couple of technologies that were the I'm using 8 

## your words, "very expensive options" so if the idea 9 

## of fuel switching is that you are doing it to save 10 

## money which the economic rationale would present here 11 

## I guess my question is why would you switch to "very 12 

## expensive option" relative to this and include that 13 

## as a viable consumer option. 14 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 15 

## In certain cases that very expensive option might be 16 

## the same price or lower price than what you might 17 

## have to do inside the house based on your 18 

## configuration of the current system. So for some 19 

## consumers it might be a more expensive option but for 20 

## others based on what they might have to do to meet 21 

## the new standard it might be the same or a lower 22 

## price so again it is all relative to what a consumerThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### is facing with its current system. 2 

### MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, in that case, we will 3 

### ask you to provide the data on the cost of switching 4 

### to oil including the environmental and tank issues 5 

### that exist with that and then if you have any data on 6 

### switching to wood from gas -- and then you mentioned, I 7 

### think, direct heating equipment -- that's fine, we will 8 

### take the data that you have on that. 9 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 10 

### Again, thank you for that but again I was just saying 11 

### there's so many options out there and it just seemed 12 

### like you were just totally you know not considering 13 

### all -- I'll stop there thank you. 14 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you Mark Krebs? 15 

### MR. KREBS: I won't stop there I have got 16 

### a couple more to add to Steve's list. One of them is 17 

### if you are really poor and you can't afford to 18 

### replace your furnace that you just turn on the range 19 

### and try to heat your house that way. You know, 20 

### another option is if you go down to the dollar store 21 

### or somewhere you know and you get an electric 22 

### resistance heater, you know maybe you get a wholeThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## bunch of them and plug those in because that's the 2 

## only choice you have got, either that or freezing to 3 

## death. 4 

## So there are other options and yeah they 5 

## should be considered. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay let's proceed with the 7 

## analysis that is here. 8 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for all of those 9 

## comments, please provide written comment. These are 10 

## the options in the graphical the next presents the 11 

## same in a tabulated format. As you can see there's 12 

## six combinations that we start with there are 13 

## non-condensing with certain other combination 14 

## air-conditioning or water heating combinations. 15 

## This next slide presents the actual 16 

## tabulated numbers in terms of how many households 17 

## belong to these criteria, the most common is a 18 

## non-weatherized gas furnace with a gas water heater 19 

## and a central air conditioner which represents about 20 

## 66% of the sample. 21 

## I'll stop on this one and be more detailed 22 

## because this is one of the one's we receive a lot ofThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## comments on and please provide -- 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We have a comment from Mark 3 

## Nayes on line who says a question in fact, does this 4 

## switching take into account the complete inability to 5 

## install a condensing gas furnace in place of a 6 

## non-condensing gas furnace and are required to 7 

## install a different form of heat? 8 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question. 9 

## Would you repeat that -- 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 11 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yeah again it might be in 12 

## the weeds here I was trying to see -- as part of this 13 

## decision making matrix I am just wondering especially 14 

## on the water heater side was there any factor 15 

## considered for age of the water heater versus the 16 

## furnace for example if albeit an equation if the age 17 

## of the water heater is less than half the age of the 18 

## furnace are people really going to make that switch 19 

## or less than one third? 20 

## I mean you are an excellent salesperson, 21 

## you convince someone to take out a 5 year old gas 22 

## water heater when they are replacing a 20 year oldThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### furnace. 2 

### MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that comment, 3 

### yeah that is described in our TSD we do take that 4 

### into account. We assume that for example the furnace 5 

### is fairly old it is more likely that they will 6 

### replace it. If it has just been replaced only a few 7 

### years then it is less likely, the description is in 8 

### the TSD. Question? 9 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes please? 10 

### MR. MURPHY: Doug and John, could you 11 

### direct us to where we could find more information on 12 

### where those situations where that previous question -- 13 

### about where it is impossible to install a condensing 14 

### is included in the fuel switching? 15 

### MR. FRANCO: Okay yes let me -- this was 16 

### related to installation costs. Before, I mentioned that 17 

### what we do in our analysis is we assign very large 18 

### costs for some of these households with assigned, 19 

### sometimes it's a very, very large cost because you 20 

### are going to have multiple laws in a very large 21 

### ventilation. 22 

### MR. MURPHY: I'm sorry this is RichThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## Murphy, AGA. I think the question I'm not sure but 2 

## for instance if there is a condominium project where 3 

## they do not allow penetrating an outside wall, how is 4 

## that considered in the analysis? 5 

## MR. FRANCO: We do have it different for 6 

## example for multi-family kind of condominium 7 

## situations and situations sometimes referred to as 8 

## row houses. We do account for them having to 9 

## penetrate multiple walls, the cost is usually 10 

## significant that usually that requires some analysis 11 

## or it is a significant cost that's associated to 12 

## that. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs? 14 

## MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Since this has 15 

## come up several times for the use of generally fairly 16 

## low rise buildings we are seeing the introduction 17 

## into the market of who the stack solutions for 18 

## venting condensing furnaces vertically rather than 19 

## horizontally. 20 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that comment. 21 

## So I am going back to the fuel switching so this is 22 

## how we conducted fuel switching it is based onThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## economics in terms of the household so as described 2 

## before there is a payback associated with this 3 

## analysis. We do this analysis household by household 4 

## as described before some households have very 5 

## different installation costs total install costs and 6 

## very different operating costs because how a 7 

## different region of the country where natural gas or 8 

## electricity prices are very different from other 9 

## households so all of that is taken into account what 10 

## we are doing if you follow this flow chart. 11 

## After that we do a payback calculation 12 

## related to the -- comparing the non-weatherized gas 13 

## furnace option of the 90% or above versus the 14 

## electric furnace or heat pump options. If the 15 

## payback period with that comparison is above 3.5 16 

## years we assume that a homeowner would choose to 17 

## switch. If the payback is less than that then we 18 

## assume that the homeowner will remain with 19 

## non-weatherized gas furnace. 20 

## This payback criteria is based on this 21 

## analysis data and RECS 2009 data. We will go 22 

## through the explanation of how that is calculated.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## We had a question again about this analysis data 2 

## which is this American Home Comfort survey about the 3 

## availability of the data. 4 

## We don't for many of these have the 5 

## disaggregated data by either different housing 6 

## incomes, the raw data but we do have a little bit of 7 

## sense of the distribution by region in terms of that 8 

## would give some results. The data that we actually 9 

## did use from that are these aggregated values and we 10 

## provide those here in this table and they are 11 

## available in the TSD. 12 

## We do not use any other data that is 13 

## provided from this survey, only the data that is 14 

## reported here. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Dave Schroeder? 16 

## MR. SCHROEDER: This is Dave Schroeder. 17 

## Did you ask decision analysis if this aggregated 18 

## distribution level data was available? 19 

## MR. FRANCO: Yes they do have this 20 

## aggregated data. It might not be all different 21 

## factors that you might want to consider but I'll go 22 

## through the payback you have to match that to what isThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## available from RECS so that's what's the complexity 2 

## in terms of matching that data to the RECS data. 3 

## It's about choosing to match the 4 

## aggregated data as shown. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 6 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 7 

## Again I'm looking at this diagram. Shouldn't it say 8 

## that the payback is less than 3 years if they are 9 

## going to switch or are they more than 3 years? 10 

## MR. FRANCO: I'll go into that. It's a 11 

## little bit counter-intuitive and I'll go into why 12 

## that is as we go, thank you sorry. 13 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden, ACCA. 14 

## Way back on slide 29 sort of at the beginning you had 15 

## a payback period life-cycle cost in yellow right here. 16 

## This one has payback period of a 3.5 years, that's 17 

## some kind of determination. How did you come up with 18 

## 3 years and is that a payback period that DOE looks 19 

## at or is it just -- 20 

## MR. FRANCO: I'll go through in more 21 

## detail about the actual calculation what that means 22 

## and hopefully that will explain your question, thankThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### you. 2 

### MR. MCCRUDDEN: Okay. 3 

### MR. FRANCO: So the decision analysis or 4 

### home comfort survey data is provided here on this 5 

### table on the -- on your right so essentially the 6 

### nominal values are what they represent is the answer 7 8 

### 277 9 10 

### to this question. The question is what are consumers 11 

### willing to pay for 25% higher efficiency equipment so 12 

### this could be, this is HVAC equipment so this is the 13 

### central AC gas furnaces, any of that type of 14 

### equipment. 15 

### Responses, obviously there is a 16 

### distribution -- in terms of the responses this is the 17 

### aggregate value that they are willing to spend 18 

### compared to not having this 25% efficiency. We use 19 

### as much data as available, these are all the surveys 20 

### that are available from 2006 to 2013 and we convert 21 

### that to 2013 dollars. 22 

### Next we compare that to what's the averageThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## cost that people pay in terms of energy costs, in 2 

## terms of central air conditioning and heating in 3 

## RECS 2001, 2005 and 2009 that matches this period as 4 

## well. 5 

## We convert that from nominal dollars to 6 

## 2013 dollars and we get this 906. The equation to 7 

## calculate the 3.5 year payback is provided here below 8 

## and this results says you can see it is 792 which is 9 

## what consumers are willing to pay for 25% higher 10 

## efficiency, 25% of that value in terms of energy 11 

## costs and you get a 3.5 year payback so that is the 12 

## basis for the 3.5 year payback. 13 

## That's how much they are willing to pay to 14 

## go to higher efficiency non-weatherized gas furnace. 15 

## In the analysis I know there's a question, in the 16 

## analysis therefore we assume that if the payback is 17 

## higher than that there will be switching so that is 18 

## why the payback here is greater than 3.5 it is when 19 

## they are switching. 20 

## If it's less than 3.5 there is no 21 

## switching so hopefully that clarifies that question. 22 

## When you bring two additional conditions then to thisThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## to finalize our analysis. The first condition is 2 

## that the total installed costs of the alternative 3 

## needs to be less than the non-weatherized gas furnace 4 

## installation cost. So if that isn't the case there's 5 

## no switching so that's our first condition. So this 6 

## alternative has the total installed cost has to be 7 

## less than that. 8 

## The other condition is that if the payback 9 

## is below zero meaning that the alternative actually 10 

## has greater savings in terms of energy costs, there 11 

## is also switching. This is the case for example if 12 

## you are in an area with low electricity rates 13 

## compared to natural gas and then potentially your 14 

## heat pump will be more cost -- there will be more 15 

## cost savings from the heat pump option. 16 

## This describes this and I know there are a 17 

## number of questions so I will stop here and answer 18 

## your questions. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Mark? 20 

## MR. KREBS: Yeah in the opening page or so 21 

## of the official federal registered NOPR you know it 22 

## shows a simple payback of 7.2 years you know alongThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## with an average life-cycle savings of this $305.00. 2 

## You know I'm just suggesting maybe in league with 3 

## Einstein's definition of doing things as simple as 4 

## possible would DOE consider just straight going to a 5 

## payback criteria? You know I mean and if something 6 

## is better than a 3 year payback, you know I for one 7 

## I'm not going to contest it, I am going to consider 8 

## that in my customer's best interest and stay away 9 

## from DOE you know. 10 

## Is that a possibility to consider you know 11 

## that we go to something totally different than this 12 

## life-cycle costing thousands of pages of complexity 13 

## you know, can we do that? 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank for the comment Mark. 15 

## MR. KREBS: No, I appreciate you know is it 16 

## doable is it within -- is it even within -- I mean as 17 

## the secretary determines with that language, isn't it 18 

## within your capability of doing this or are you 19 

## prohibited from doing it? 20 

## MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen from the 21 

## General Counsel's office. There is an authority 22 

## within EPCA that allows us to do it -- essentiallyThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## what you are saying is a three year simple payback? 2 

## MR. KREBS: Well I know there is a 3 

## rebuttable -- I know that and here's 3 1/2. In the 4 

## spirit of compromise I am willing to go to 3 years. 5 

## MR. COHEN: But just to be clear that 6 

## already kind of goes around the other 7 factors in 7 

## the statute right, it's just a simple determination 8 

## honestly your payback. 9 

## MR. KREBS: I'm just -- you have the 10 

## flexibility to do it if you want, that's what I am 11 

## hearing unless you tell me different. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik? 13 

## MR. STANONIK: Just an observation, I mean, 14 

## I guess I'm sitting it is probably irrelevant, but I 15 

## am scratching my head saying okay you posed the 16 

## question or you presented this as willing to pay for 17 

## a 25% higher efficiency okay. Well if you go -- if 18 

## your baseline is 80% AFUE and you go to 92 that's 12 19 

## point gain over 80, that's a 15% increase in 20 

## efficiency so I am trying to think, okay, so why this 21 

## particular question when in fact the situation we are 22 

## analyzing or trying to analyze is much closer to whatThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## would the consumer be willing to pay for a in my 2 

## example of a 15% increase in efficiency? 3 

## This just strikes me as odd. 4 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you very much for that 5 

## comment. Just a reminder we did not design this 6 

## question and this is just a question that was 7 

## designed not on our intent and this is what they 8 

## asked in terms of the 25%. There isn't a survey that 9 

## would go into that detail. There are other surveys 10 

## that provide -- sometimes you ask people if maybe the 11 

## energy cost is less than that. Usually, the payback 12 

## if it is a little bit less they are thinking that 13 

## they need to pay usually greater. 14 

## So this might be conservative, potentially 15 

## in that sense looking at other surveys, but this is 16 

## the survey data that we have and we feel that we have 17 

## found that it has the most data. Please provide a 18 

## comment in that regard to -- 19 

## MR. STANONIK: I'll provide a comment now, 20 

## I mean I don't envy the task that DOE has okay and we 21 

## have certainly gone back and forth about how you 22 

## would like to have the best data you could get andThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## some of that might be in our hands and some of that 2 

## we can share and some we can't or whatever, but my 3 

## comment is, okay, so in some cases if you don't have 4 

## good data then I don't necessarily agree that in all 5 

## cases then you grab whatever might be there because, 6 

## say in this case, this is the question they asked and 7 

## I would say but this question really doesn't have 8 

## relevance to this rulemaking and so I think in some 9 

## cases my comment would be sometimes then don't use 10 

## whatever is the available data because it just 11 

## doesn't fit. 12 

## Don't pound a square peg into a round 13 

## hole. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. So I 15 

## disagree with the foundation of your statement that 16 

## this doesn't apply. This is actually just saying 17 

## what the willingness to pay for efficiency is. If it 18 

## says 10, 5, 15, it gives a number right, it's 19 

## normalized so it's perfectly reasonable. 20 

## MR. STANONIK: I was asked to give a 21 

## comment so I was. And by the way I wasn't good 22 

## enough to -- I wasn't staying for that commentThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## either. 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you for that 3 

## comment, we only thank you for good comments. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Dave Schroeder? 5 

## MR. SCHROEDER: That's a difficult 6 

## question to follow but I am curious why in all of the 7 

## rest of the LCC's spreadsheet and the NOPR the word 8 

## payback means what I believe to be the traditional 9 

## definition of payback, meaning the time after which 10 

## you start to recover money and in this case if you 11 

## follow the logic in the LCC spreadsheet that is not 12 

## what payback means. 13 

## Payback in this case means the time after 14 

## which consumers begin to lose money to operational 15 

## cost increases relative to the baselines, so could you 16 

## comment on why you mixed those terms? I mean, even 17 

## within this one spreadsheet they are mixed. 18 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that comment. 19 

## I appreciate that, we will try to define that better 20 

## and I can see that could be misunderstood because 21 

## they are using the same term we will correct that, 22 

## thank you.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### MR. CYMBALSKY: So on this slide, Dave 2 

### just pointed to the questions we think we have 3 

### addressed. So we think priority questions B and D and 4 

### questions 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 and 7 in the related to fuel 5 

### switching have been addressed so if not, please -- 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Dave Schroeder? 7 

### MR. SCHROEDER: This is Dave Schroeder I 8 

### think -- 9 

### MR. CYMBALSKY: I think we are going to 10 

### get to C eventually. 11 

### MR. FRANCO: Yeah let me know if I don't 12 

### get to it in my next slide. This I think has a 13 

### couple of responses. This provides -- this is the next 14 

### slide to kind of go over a little bit about detail, 15 

### not too much due to the time constraints, but this presents 16 

### the summary of all the inputs. There are more 17 

### details in the TSD compared to what is shown here. 18 

### This gives you the -- how we determine the cost for the 19 

### electric furnace, central AC and heat pumps, the 20 

### price trends of these two, all the installation and 21 

### maintenance costs that we assume when we got that 22 

### information in terms of the value in terms of theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## energy use, we are using the latest energy efficiency 2 

## standards that would be applicable during that period 3 

## of time 12/21 and also the lifetimes. 4 

## As you can see, most of the data comes from 5 

## previous rulemakings that DOE has conducted for this 6 

## product. There were a couple of questions in 7 

## relation to these, which I will go through in more 8 

## detail, that are related to first electric furnaces. 9 

## For electric furnaces we didn't have direct data 10 

## similar to what we do in terms of the manufacturer 11 

## cost. 12 

## We have a value that comes from RS Means 13 

## and there was a question why we multiply that times 14 

## 3. We assume that the markup for that equipment 15 

## would be around 3 and so we divide the RS Means value 16 

## by 3 to get the manufacturer, the manufacturer 17 

## production cost. 18 

## After we get that value then we use our 19 

## general markup distribution to that value, that 20 

## single value to become comparable to the other 21 

## values, so that is the answer to the first question. 22 

## There was another question related to the electricThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## water heaters in terms of the differences between 2 

## natural gas water heaters and electric water heaters. 3 

## Usually the market, if you are purchasing between 4 

## electric water use and gas water heaters, electric 5 

## water heaters are usually cheaper in terms of the 6 

## manufacturer costs. 7 

## Here though, we are considering the case 8 

## where we are having to switch from natural gas to 9 

## electric water heaters so we have to include the fact 10 

## that the major cost is due to the fact that we have 11 

## to do installation costs in terms of potentially 12 

## adding electric outlet, potentially doing some work 13 

## in terms of the electrical panel, and those costs are 14 

## added in. 15 

## In addition to that, when you are going 16 

## from natural gas to an electric water heater you 17 

## might have to size that a little bit to a larger 18 

## size. For example, if you start with a 60 gallon gas 19 

## water heater you might have to go to a 50 gallon 20 

## water heater because you want to get the same output 21 

## out of it, say to take your showers. 22 

## So an electric water heater would be 50The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### gallons, natural gas would be 40 gallons. We take 2 

### that in counter analysis as well. The details are 3 

### provided in the TSD. Please submit anything that you 4 

### feel that needs some further clarification. 5 

### MR. CYMBOLSKY: So I think on this one for 6 

### the docketed questions we think we have 3, 6 and 7 7 

### from the questions asked previously and not answered 8 

### by DOE. 9 

### MR. FRANCO: Do we have any questions? 10 

### MR. CYMBOLSKY: If we didn't, please ask 11 

### it. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Neil go ahead. 13 

### MR. LESLIE: This is Neil Leslie, GTI. 14 

### Maybe you did, so the simple question I guess, why was 15 

### the uniform distribution chosen for remaining 16 

### lifetimes for cooling and water heating equipment? 17 

### MR. FRANCO: Yes, thank you for that. 18 

### That question actually relates back to how we account 19 

### for the remaining lifetime of the water heater. 20 

### There is no data in terms of when the furnace fails -- 21 

### what's the age of the water heater -- so we assume kind 22 

### of a uniform distribution -- we assume, well it's betweenThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### 1 and 13 years once the furnace fails. 2 

### If you feel that maybe something else 3 

### could be better to represent that please let us know. 4 

### Thank you, so now this is the final slide 5 

### for product switching in terms of the result -- so these 6 

### are the results of the switching and as you can see 7 

### here they vary between North of the country and 8 

### between the national standard levels. So as you go 9 

### to a higher efficiency standard levels the switching 10 

### goes up, which follows what you might think. 11 

### You also get switching to electric 12 

### furnaces and heat pumps that are disaggregated in 13 

### these figures. All the way at the bottom there is 14 

### also the switching that occurs between the gas 15 

### storage water heater and the electric storage water 16 

### heater and those values are there. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage? 18 

### MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, Southern 19 

### Company. I think your numbers on switching to 20 

### electric furnace are unrealistically high. Even in 21 

### the South, meaning rest of the country, it is rare at 22 

### my company to have a destroyed electric furnace.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## They have actually been banned in single family 2 

## housing under the building code for about 10 or 12 3 

## years. What is especially puzzling is the percentage 4 

## numbers looking at these between electric furnace and 5 

## heat pump, it appears to be about the same percentage 6 

## in the North picking electric furnace over heat pump 7 

## compared to and rest of country and with the higher 8 

## heating loads that would seem to be very counter 9 

## intuitive. 10 

## I would expect lower numbers choosing -- 11 

## much lower numbers choosing electric furnace over 12 

## heat pump in the South and very minimal choosing 13 

## electric furnace over heat pump in the North, thank 14 

## you. 15 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much for those 16 

## comments. Let me just go through two additional 17 

## things that might help on this. We did assume in the 18 

## energy use the efficiency of the heat pump to vary 19 

## between regions. In the North, even though the sea 20 

## level is the same in the North, efficiency drops 21 

## because of the climate conditions. 22 

## In the South the efficiency would beThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### greater so that it counts for some of the numbers how 2 

### they play out. Also you need to consider that these 3 

### numbers are aggregate for the North. There are some 4 

### situations in the North where electricity prices are 5 

### fairly competitive with natural gas. 6 

### One such situation is in the Pacific 7 

### Northwest, so those are considered if you look at the 8 

### actual disaggregated numbers by region. For example, in 9 

### the North you would see that as well. 10 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Rick Murphy? 11 

### MR. MURPHY: It's Rick Murphy, AGA. 12 

### Victor this chart here do you also have that broken 13 

### up between replacement and new construction? 14 

### MR. FRANCO: This between replacement and 15 

### construction, yes. I think it is in the appendix D -- if 16 

### not, it would be D and I but I think it is in the 17 

### appendix and broken down as one of the actually, 18 

### that's one of the major inputs to the NIA analysis, 19 

### we put it down by new construction and replacement 20 

### part. 21 

### MR. KREBS: Victor Mark Krebs again with 22 

### Laclede. In this chart especially are we looking atThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### -- we are looking at replacements and clearly it says 2 

### so right there, you know what about new construction 3 

### because I think fuel switching is a really different 4 

### scenario in new construction because they don't have 5 

### all of these, they don't have to do a lot of work 6 

### upgrading their electric service panel, you know. 7 

### They just simply go with the next bigger 8 

### size you know, they -- by your own calculations I 9 

### think you show a savings in construction costs by not 10 

### having to build a constructive flue so you know I 11 

### think that the switch might be total, you know is my 12 

### point. Heat pumps with electric resistance or heat 13 

### pump water heaters perhaps you know and everything 14 

### else you know there will be no gas service in which 15 

### case what are the environmental impacts of that. 16 

### I guess you know raise that as areas that 17 

### you know it is kind of hard to determine how you are 18 

### separating this out you know in all cases. Let me 19 

### just ask you flat out -- you know is there a set 20 

### percentage of the market that you -- that's new 21 

### construction in your papers that I have been talking 22 

### about all day -- you -- say you assumed 25% you know, isThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## that similar here? 2 

## MR. FRANCO: That's correct, so just to 3 

## reiterate this is the household by household. The 4 

## building sample 25% is assigned to new construction. 5 

## That's then you can disaggregate those results and 6 

## sorry about that that's a good clarification. These 7 

## results are only for replacements. There's a similar 8 

## table in the TSC and I'll point to the page that has 9 

## the new construction results and all the analysis, 10 

## new construction is obviously very different, very 11 

## different considerations. 12 

## The page for this is page 22 and 23. On 13 

## page 22 this table is 8J43, which is the residential 14 

## results and 8J.4 is the new construction results, 15 

## sorry about the clarification. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs? 17 

## MR. SACHS: First I want to thank Mark 18 

## Krebs. I am agreeing with essentially everything he 19 

## said that new construction is battleground and that 20 

## leads me to the question for Victor. In your 21 

## consideration heat pump case were you considering the 22 

## sort of classic all American air source heat pump orThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## were you considering some of the newer BRF equipment? 2 

## MR. FRANCO: This is just the regular 3 

## source of heat pumps. 4 

## MR. SACHS: So we are certainly seeing the 5 

## beginnings of substantial market transformation in a 6 

## couple of northern areas where they are finding 7 

## capacity maintenance with variable speed compressors 8 

## down to speeds below zero and seeing relatively high 9 

## HSPF values or better yet COP values under these 10 

## conditions. 11 

## This may emerge as something that matters 12 

## competitively far more than the question of 13 

## condensing versus non-condensing. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Dave Schroeder then to 15 

## Steve. 16 

## MR. SCHROEDER: I think you may have tried 17 

## to answer this question before but I am not sure that 18 

## I fully understood your answer so I am going to try 19 

## again. 20 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you. 21 

## MR. SCHROEDER: In cases where there is a 22 

## first cost advantage of the switching option relativeThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## to the 92% case the model chooses that option where 2 

## you have essentially a negative payback as you have 3 

## defined it. 4 

## MR. FRANCO: Let me try to rephrase that. 5 

## So we compare the non-weatherized gas furnace you 6 

## mentioned 92% versus the electric option. If the 7 

## payback is below 3.5 then that -- there's no 8 

## switching. If it goes negative that, so below zero -- 9 

## then there is switching because that's the case when 10 

## you actually have operating cost savings on the 11 

## electrical side. 12 

## MR. SCHROEDER: Okay so if you have 13 

## operational cost savings and you have first class 14 

## savings, even relative to an 80% furnace it would 15 

## select that case as well and it would consider it to 16 

## be a fuel switching case. You would also have 17 

## probably a good life-cycle cost savings but I don't 18 

## understand how that it related to the rule? 19 

## Do you understand my question? 20 

## MR. FRANCO: Yeah, this is what I 21 

## mentioned earlier -- we didn't consider the case 22 

## where you are going from a non-condensing to theseThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## other options. If you think that we should consider 2 

## that's please submit a comment on that -- yeah. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 4 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 5 

## Electric Institute. Again another option which is 6 

## not considered is the ground source heat pumps which 7 

## Harvey was very involved with for many, many years. 8 

## Geo-thermal heat pumps is another design option for 9 

## new construction. Anyhow I am looking at all of 10 

## these numbers and I am just -- it's basically from 11 

## what I am seeing in terms of when you switch over the 12 

## water heaters is that it seems that it is 20% or 13 

## switching to electric heating source that another 14 

## that 2 up to 4% of that, 20% or up to 35%, basically 15 

## about 20% of those are also -- they are also going to 16 

## switch their water heaters as well. 17 

## And again I guess you took a lot of things 18 

## into account, I just you know especially for over 55 19 

## gallons we are going to have to go to a heat pump 20 

## water heater, I definitely have to agree with Don 21 

## Brundage of the Southern Company. I think especially 22 

## for replacements in my mind I think with all theThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## other technology options out there these numbers just 2 

## seem way, way high and also there is no context of 3 

## the fact that the heat pumps have increased twice in 4 

## efficiency and their costs have increased twice over 5 

## the last 9 years and this doesn't talk about the 6 

## other side of the equation where people can put in 7 

## gas equipment rather than heat pumps because of the 8 

## higher cost of the heat pumps, thank you. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik? 10 

## MR. STANONIK: I think there is one area 11 

## in this analysis that you need to factor in so you -- 12 

## in the chart on slide 74 on a national basis roughly 13 

## 20% of replacement installations are installations 14 

## where there is no air conditioning. 15 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you, that's correct. 16 

## MR. STANONIK: So when this consumer is 17 

## faced with the choice of replacing their gas furnace 18 

## and they are presented with the choice that it is 19 

## only going to be a condensing gas furnace okay. 20 

## Given that significant purchase and significant 21 

## change out of the system okay, I think you need to 22 

## consider that if you know, if they aren't into thisThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## situation well what am I going to do and the choice 2 

## is well we can give you this very expensive high cost 3 

## installation condensing gas furnace or we can give 4 

## you a heat pump, which oh by the way will give you 5 

## air conditioning that you didn't have in the past and 6 

## as Andrew and I discussed, consumers value comfort and 7 

## in fact there is a dollar value to that comfort, okay. 8 

## If you think about that, that 9 

## significantly changes at what point the consumer 10 

## would say from an economic standpoint, oh sure, give 11 

## me, let's forget that old gas product just give me 12 

## that wonderful heat pump I will have heated and I 13 

## will have cool and that will be great because they 14 

## didn't have cool and there's no question that a 15 

## standard home in the United States today has heating 16 

## and cooling and those people who don't have it either 17 

## can't afford it for whatever reason or they just 18 

## haven't got around to it but they sure would like to 19 

## have it and so I think you have to factor that in. 20 

## That the choice might be okay you are 21 

## either going to have to pay this cost for your new 22 

## gas furnace or whatever or I could give you this heatThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## pump and yeah it might cost more okay, it might cost 2 

## more but now your house is going to be warm in the 3 

## winter and cool in the summer and as we talked 4 

## there's a value, I think you have to work it in there 5 

## because it will drive that decision. 6 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much. Just to 7 

## clarify how we did it and what -- we did not consider 8 

## in that situation the heat pump to be an option if 9 

## they didn't have a central air conditioner so for 10 

## example the case would be say, for example, number 4. 11 

## The options are listed here, they would either have an 12 

## electric furnace -- 13 

## MR. STANONIK: And I think that there's a 14 

## slight error in the analysis. 15 

## MR. FRANCO: I thank you for that comment, 16 

## we appreciate it. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Please say your name. 18 

## MR. DRUMHELLER: Craig Drumheller 19 

## representing the National Association of Home 20 

## Builders. One of the components here that I think is 21 

## missing with fuel switching -- I represent the 22 

## National Association of Home Builders, we buildThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### roughly a million homes a year and all of them have 2 

### to make decisions whether you are going to use gas or 3 

### electric but I think one of the components that is 4 

### missing here is deciding okay I am going to go to a 5 

### direct vent furnace so now what am I going to do with 6 

### my water heater? 7 

### Am I going to go with a direct vent gas 8 

### water heater, am I going to go to a B vent on my 9 

### water heater, or am I going to go to an electric water 10 

### heater -- so I think that's a major component that's 11 

### missing on this -- so you are talking about heating and 12 

### cooling comfort but you are not talking about water 13 

### heating and I think that's where a lot of my builders 14 

### said well that's what I'm probably going to do I am 15 

### not going to run a dedicated B vent for a water 16 

### heater -- so I think you should include that in your 17 

### analysis. 18 

### MR. FRANCO: Thank you, we appreciate that 19 

### comment. 20 

### MR. SACHS: Craig this is Harvey Sachs. I 21 

### think that is an important question and we certainly 22 

### have some empirical experience which was related toThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## me by a Massachusetts utility that the builders in 2 

## their area were responding in a very constructive and 3 

## cumulative even way. What they did is install the 4 

## condensing furnace and then they installed a power 5 

## vented gas water heater, low efficiency and then they 6 

## offered the chimney as an expensive adder so that 7 

## people could have a fireplace. 8 

## Once they had gone to the condensing 9 

## furnace and the power vent they kept all of the 10 

## amenity of gas and built themselves in a very nice 11 

## option that most people chose to go upscale with. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: I think now we are moving 13 

## on to slide 78, Dave Schroeder? 14 

## MR. SCHROEDER: In the fuel switching 15 

## logic the model chooses whatever option has the 16 

## longest payback period and assuming that there is one 17 

## over 3 years. If there are two over 3 years 18 

## what's the rationale for choosing the one with the 19 

## longest rather than the lowest first costs -- because 20 

## presumably people are considering switching because 21 

## of first cost issues. 22 

## MR. FRANCO: Again to thank you we did notThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### trust that that was one of the questions that you had 2 

### asked -- that was just a simplification -- we assumed that 3 

### was the greatest one, please submit comments that you 4 

### think how that can be improved, thank you. 5 

### So these are the results -- these results 6 

### presented here are with fuel switching so when you 7 

### see for example 90% a fraction of these results are 8 

### actually switching to either a heat pump or electric 9 

### furnace or going from a gas water heater to an 10 

### electric water heater. This presents a simple 11 

### payback and the overall system. The next slide 12 

### presents the impacted consumers and the average LCC 13 

### savings. 14 

### The next slide actually compares the 15 

### results between without switching and with switching. 16 

### In the appendix we also provide different scenarios 17 

### for the switching so you can look at what would 18 

### happen if there was a difference in switching a 19 

### fraction in terms of changing the payback criteria. 20 

### So you can take a look at that analysis in 21 

### the appendix 8J. 22 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Neil?The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. LESLIE: Could you maybe explain why 2 

## the payback period drops when you start to put fuel 3 

## switching in there compared to without fuel 4 

## switching? 5 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question 6 

## and that's a question you have provided. The -- you 7 

## can think of it as the LCC results that is a 8 

## distribution. Most of the people that would be more 9 

## negatively impacted would be in this negatively 10 

## impacted distribution. If they find this equivalent 11 

## to be benefitting because they have a lower cost and 12 

## maybe their operation costs are not that different 13 

## they would be more positively impacted than if they 14 

## were with going with the standard. 15 

## Because of that the overall payback 16 

## decreases and the LCC savings decrease. Now if you 17 

## notice from this slide note that for example the 18 

## switching -- without switching and with switching 19 

## fractions are very, very similar so they are still 20 

## pretty much being negatively impacted but they are 21 

## less negatively impacted on average. 22 

## This does not mean that all households areThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### not more negatively impacted -- say for example they 2 

### decide to install electric furnace, maybe over the 3 

### lifetime they will have significant operating costs 4 

### but on average the payback does decrease and the LCC 5 

### savings on average increase. 6 

### But this analysis is done household by 7 

### household, so household to household they will be both 8 

### negatively and positively impacted, does that answer? 9 

### MR. LESLIE: Mostly I guess -- my other part 10 11 

### 304 12 13 

### of this is when you run it, with and without switching 14 

### them, is it expected that a different house will be 15 

### impacted with in the without switching version 16 

### compared to with switching? In other words, how 17 

### do I get from the 9 to the 7.7 using the same house 18 

### or is it a different house that wound up winding up 19 

### having a net cost or is it the same house with a net 20 

### cost but that when you switch then you accrue a 21 

### benefit by switching? 22 

### MR. FRANCO: So one feature of CrystalThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## Ball and again it's a little bit technical, but one 2 

## feature of Crystal Ball is they can actually sample -- 3 

## if you do different scenarios -- you sample the same 4 

## household, so what we do with and without switching, 5 

## you are sampling the same household so essentially 6 

## what you are doing is in this area with product 7 

## switching the household that switched for example 8 

## will choose a heat pump and that's the -- the 9 

## benefits in terms of the heat pump going from 80% 10 

## that they wish to install and not having to install a 11 

## heat pump and the results without switching that same 12 

## household economics are going from because there was 13 

## no switching it would need to go to the condensing, 14 

## that's 90% or 92% whatever the standard, wherever the 15 

## level we are looking at. 16 

## Hopefully that answers. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Nayes, I almost 18 

## dropped you out, you are next, please go ahead. 19 

## MR. NAYES: Yes, I want to go back to the 20 

## inability to install certain condensing furnaces and 21 

## certain condominiums. I can get about 99.9% of homes 22 

## install a condensing furnace just by being able to beThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## creative but there are certain instances where like 2 

## in a condominium if you are on the lower level and 3 

## you have a vaulted ceiling, there is no wall you can 4 

## go through to vent out you are going to have the vent 5 

## going through your kitchen table, it is going to go 6 

## through your dining room window. 7 

## If you want to go through a different wall 8 

## you are going to someone else's living space and we 9 

## are not allowed to do that so what am I supposed to 10 

## do in that instance? 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Did you say 99.9, it works? 12 

## MR. NAYES: I can get it in just about 13 

## every instance. I can put a condensing furnace in 14 

## just about any home out there but there are some that 15 

## it doesn't matter what kind of money you put at it, 16 

## what kind of costs I put on it I cannot install it 17 

## according to code. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you. Bud 19 

## Miller? 20 

## MR. MILLER: Thank you, Bud Miller, APGA. 21 

## A number of times today the speakers indicated that 22 

## he would in the next generation revise certain thingsThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## to account for things that have been said in 2 

## questions and answers today. So my question, whether 3 

## it is of the speaker or you, John, is when will we see 4 

## this new iteration? Will it come with full 5 

## explanation and we will then have a revised comment 6 

## period to respond to that revised iteration? 7 

## MR. COHEN: Yes, I mean we are going to 8 

## have to look into this and talk it through really, it 9 

## depends on what the changes would be right. If they 10 

## are just sort of clarifications or corrections or 11 

## whatever we could just put another new version of the 12 

## spreadsheet in it doesn't really change the basic 13 

## thrust of what is up there now. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Dan Cohen. 15 

## MR. MILLER: And this is Bud Miller. 16 

## Hopefully if you do put up a new spreadsheet A -- you 17 

## will tell us about it, and B -- you will explain it 18 

## because we have had that problem in the past and then 19 

## we will have to decide if you don't provide a new 20 

## comment period whether to ask for one depending upon 21 

## what we see in terms of what you post, but notice is 22 

## very important in terms of when you post it and whatThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## it reflects, what changes it reflects, thank you. 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So before we move on so I 3 

## just wanted to recap for the benefit of the questions 4 

## for docket. We think we have got questions 1A and 4 5 

## in the section noted as previously asked and not 6 

## answered. We also think we have got question 1 7 

## related to installation costs and question 5 in the 8 

## previously asked and not answered, okay just to keep 9 

## that. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay we are going to press 11 

## on here. 12 

## MR. FRANCO: This next slide and John will 13 

## present it. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So I will take this one. 15 

## We want to throw a few slides in here just to compare 16 

## the AGA analysis that has been out there, it is 17 

## actually in our docket as well compared to what we 18 

## have here in the NOPR so we just threw a couple of 19 

## slides up here to show that. I am not going to read 20 

## through here but you could see what we believe to be 21 

## the AGA assumptions in their modeling and so you can 22 

## see them there. If we advance the slide we could seeThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### 1 

## what the key differences here are so really when you 2 

## look at the analyses we have several levels of fuel 3 

## switching in both. 4 

## What really matters is when you do switch 5 

## my recollection is where it switches like in what 6 

## region of the country what the heating load is in 7 

## that switching situation and then all of the 8 

## economics that play out in terms of what we used in 9 

## our analysis which is what we presented here, the 10 

## prices that the AGA analysis has, how carbon factors 11 

## and things such as that change over time to get the 12 

## environmental benefits. 13 

## But you know we think that you know 14 

## everything that we have done in our fuel switching 15 

## analysis clearly has taken some good comment here 16 

## today but again we think the level of switching is 17 

## similar it is just you know what house switches and 18 

## where the house is and what the heating load is gets 19 

## you to a different answer in both of our studies 20 

## which is kind of a high levels. 21 

## MR. FRANCO: This answers a couple of 22 

## questions from AGA I think.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, that is question 1C on 2 

### the previously asked and not answered. 3 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 4 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a very quick -- I have 5 

### not had a chance to see the AGA study. I know you 6 

### said it is on the docket. On slide 81 these 7 

### conclusions, which I would love to look into deeply, 8 

### are these annual figures or over 30 years? And there 9 

### are conclusions are those 30 year numbers? Annual? 10 

### Well I would have issues with a couple especially the 11 

### emissions thank you. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 13 

### MR. FRANCO: So the next final piece of 14 

### the LCC is we do a subgroup analysis we take a look 15 

### from our sample of people that would be in the low 16 

### income or senior only. The results presented here 17 

### are the comparisons between the senior or low income 18 

### of all consumers. 19 

### The next slide just to finalize if there 20 

### are any additional comments for the LCC then we will 21 

### move on to the next. 22 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark Krebs?The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. KREBS: Just one real short -- just to 2 

## reiterate what the comments in the furnace fan rule 3 

## from Sophie Miller that states that for those low 4 

## income groups you are vastly understating the 5 

## discount rate. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you, Mark Nayes 7 

## has a comment -- it's a question in fact. If this is 8 

## designed to save energy why is the entire building 9 

## mechanical not being considered as a whole? 10 

## MR. FRANCO: The standard is only for 11 

## furnaces we only considered the furnaces on this 12 

## analysis, thank you for the comment. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik? 14 

## MR. STANONIK: This last slide -- hopefully 15 

## in one or two sentences you can explain how does the 16 

## average life-cycle cost for a senior only become 17 

## higher than for the nation? Wouldn't they have the 18 

## same installed price, cost of the furnace? 19 

## MR. FRANCO: This relates to the 20 

## distribution of these furnaces throughout the country 21 

## and the appropriate discount rate and so there's a 22 

## lot of economic factors you would have to look intoThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## exactly the distribution of these and economics but 2 

## they are all -- everything is similar in terms of the 3 

## assumptions and this is the results of that. 4 

## MR. STANONIK: Follow up, Frank Stanonik, 5 

## AHRI. If that is true then why would you look at 6 

## senior only as a separate sub-group? They have to 7 

## have some significant changes and I guess I'll go 8 

## look at the TSD. 9 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that comment. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Neil? 11 

## MR. LESLIE: So I know we are all getting 12 

## very close to the end of the day here. First of all 13 

## I want to express my appreciation for the efforts you 14 

## all put into doing your best to answer questions that 15 

## are very thorny and maybe somewhat very challenging. 16 

## I appreciate the efforts and it doesn't matter 17 

## whether we agree or disagree with the answer what I 18 

## appreciate is the fact that you worked hard to figure 19 

## out an answer to them. 20 

## I have one last one sitting in here -- I 21 

## think aside from the West Virginia thing, you already 22 

## did it, thank you I was somewhere else at the timeThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## even if I was here. 2 

## But I have a challenging question in here in that I'm 3 

## not sure what's equitable and how we get at equity so 4 

## it has to do with question number 4 on the overall 5 

## sheet and I am going to just ask it again and if you 6 

## feel you have answered it in the best way you can, 7 

## okay, but I am struggling still just a little bit. 8 

## So the question is and they are both 9 

## important. How are negatively and positively 10 

## impacted homes segmented? North, South, new 11 

## construction replacement, different options in 12 

## different home locations and sizes and configurations 13 

## as well as other factors that would impact consumer 14 

## classes differently -- our concern is that the 15 

## averages continue not to show the impact on marginal 16 

## effected consumers both positively and negatively. 17 

## I am not sure how to address that right 18 

## now but as you had offered to do your best to answer 19 

## all the questions that were on here I believe that is 20 

## the very last one I see that is in play in my mind 21 

## right now. 22 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you for that question.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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### Kind of -- it was answered throughout the presentation. 2 

### Basically what we do is we segment the market in 3 

### terms of new construction, replacement in the 4 

### building sample, in terms of the building sample. 5 

### Once we produce the aggregate results the average of 6 

### all the 10,000, so for example, if you want to only 7 

### look at the results for the South out of the 10,000 8 

### that represents 4,701 households. 9 

### The disaggregation between of that -- 10 

### between new construction and replacements would be 11 

### 1,161 and 3,500 so you can actually if you had all 12 

### the 10,000 they will all be there in terms of they 13 

### are all disaggregated and all the inputs are 14 

### representative of what they should be for new 15 

### construction versus replacement. Hopefully that 16 

### answers. 17 

### MR. LESLIE: It's almost unanswerable I 18 

### know but the hope is that if we can identify and this 19 

### may be for some of the other folks that may be having 20 

### some discussions, different sub-categories that 21 

### matter. And that is what I was trying to get at, 22 

### both positive and negative not just negatively soThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## that people can appreciate and understand the impact 2 

## on different classes of consumers. 3 

## Locationally and size of home, income 4 

## classes, whatever type of granularity as you said 5 

## there is a lot of information in the 10,000 data 6 

## points and of that large set of information there was 7 

## a certain subset that deemed to be appropriate for 8 

## the rulemaking. 9 

## The concern that we have is that there may 10 

## need to be some additional granularity in this for a 11 

## good equitable rule. 12 

## MR. FRANCO: Thank you so much for those 13 

## comments, I appreciate it. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Questions? Go ahead 15 

## please. 16 

## MR. DRUMHELLER: Craig Drumheller 17 

## representing the National Association of Home 18 

## Builders. These are just kind of my final statements 19 

## so that some of them are similar to what Neil has 20 

## just indicated. 21 

## They are very concerned that a large 22 

## section of the population will be negatively impactedThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## by this rule. Warmer climates, less expensive gas 2 

## areas, replacements especially those that exist in 3 

## finished areas. The analysis, just like any analysis 4 

## has a series of assumptions what I call knobs and it 5 

## appears that all of these knobs seem to be turned in 6 

## one direction. 7 

## The low discount rate -- we believe this 8 

## is unrealistically low. Consumers based on their 9 

## willingness to pay and alternative debt that they 10 

## have the discount rate should be closer to the 10, 11 

## 12, 14% range. Energy cost escalation rate you know 12 

## historically they have been -- it has been much 13 

## flatter than is typically predicted by the Department 14 

## of Energy and projected material prices -- again all 15 

## of these knobs turn in the direction that 16 

## overestimate the payback. 17 

## While the consumers are typically willing 18 

## and these are surveys that NHB has done over and over 19 

## again about a 7 year payback, NHB adjusted their 20 

## policy a few years ago to say you know what we will 21 

## go to a 10 year payback but it is not really what the 22 

## people that buy the homes want. They want 7 but weThe Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## went to 10 just so we could be involved in some of 2 

## the conversations. 3 

## And DOE's numbers in a lot of cases go 4 

## above 12, 13, 14 years which is unrealistic 5 

## especially for a piece of equipment that your 6 

## estimates says 21 years and some of ours are even 7 

## closer to the 18, 16 year range. That's cutting it 8 

## rather close. Everybody needs to keep in mind this 9 

## is a minimum standard, everybody has to do this we 10 

## are not talking about Energy Star we are talking 11 

## about everybody must comply with this and we think 12 

## that this is overstepping. 13 

## Corrections to this problematic 14 

## requirements may be bifurcated standards maybe for 15 

## condensing and non-condensing and have separate 16 

## categories and separate requirements for each 17 

## category, potentially having regional North/South 18 

## requirements and in addition having exemptions for 19 

## replacements. 20 

## So hopefully you will consider that and we 21 

## will include that in our comments, thank you. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you.The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: So at this point I am just 2 

## going to announce that clearly we didn't reach the 3 

## finish line so we will see you all again on April 4 

## 13th to finish the meeting so we will put out an 5 

## announcement and a blast and do a webinar 9 A.M. 6 

## So let's try 10 A.M. because I think we 7 

## will have some west coasters that may not want to 8 

## travel all the way back for the rest -- so it is a 9 

## Monday, April 13th -- yes. We will be here as well so 10 

## please mark your calendars, we are going to pick off 11 

## at the shipments and finish the rest of the slides. 12 

## And then at that point everyone can do 13 

## their closing remarks. I really appreciate everyone 14 

## for sticking around and really this was a great 15 

## dialogue a lot of good information. I know the 16 

## material was dense but we got through I think the 17 

## hardest part so I appreciate it. Thank you. 18 

## (Whereupon the meeting adjourned at 4:51 19 

## p.m.) 20 21 22The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 320 **A a.m**  1:14 5:2 319:5 319:6 **abbreviated** 15:22 **ability** 11:1 25:15 29:17 71:22 **able** 13:14 26:21 27:2 29:9 41:18 48:3 56:11 74:6 74:10 76:1 79:1 90:10 97:22 107:4 124:17 125:9 138:11 211:20 221:5 239:14 249:5 306:22 **absence** 44:2 158:21 245:8 ,8 260:13 **absolutely** 74:1 98:8 126:12 159:21 191:18 201:19 **AC** 97:1 ,3 171:3 ,6 175:22,22 176:7 177:12 278:13 286:19 **ACCA** 3:8 116:22 117:9 123:7 131:18 145:13 173:1 175:1 176:16 277:13 **acceptable** 43:15 ,16 **accepted** 220:14 **access** 22:9 25:13 209:13 ,15 235:8 236:18 237:3 ,18 238:9,13 **accessible** 13:10 **accidentally** 133:9 **accompanied** 16:5 **account** 15:9 16:15 32:21 34:6 43:1 89:5 ,13 94:21 122:18 127:9 130:18 141:3 ,5 ,9 141:10,15 142:18 142:20 143:1 145:5 148:22 150:20 151:1 ,19 151:22 153:9,15 155:7 ,9,19 156:9 156:19 162:6 167:12 168:2,3 ,6 169:6,8,11 170:1 174:15 176:13 182:12 183:16 185:8 186:16 187:3 ,20 188:8 ,12 188:18 199:10

200:10,15 ,22 201:6 203:9 211:5 214:14,15 224:12 255:6 272:4 273:4 274:8 275:9 289:18 297:18 308:1 **accountable** 14:12 **accounted** 32:19 60:19 82:17 177:5 202:9 224:9,11 **accounting** 61:6 **accounts** 141:19 222:17 **accrue** 305:20 **accuracies** 92:12 **accuracy** 91:14,19 92:9 94:5 ,12 **accurate** 64:11 89:5 250:1 251:6 252:12 254:1 263:9 **accurately** 35:17 **ACEEE** 3:18 81:7 86:5 113:19 130:10 **achieve** 29:6,11 39:5 51:16 56:9 **achieved** 44:16 **achieves** 44:19 **achieving** 67:17 **acidity** 170:3 **act** 15:15 25:12 **active** 26:4,7 49:9 96:18 199:18 ,19 200:2 **actual** 21:2 63:7 92:11 109:20 112:19 118:4 123:4 124:17 134:10 138:17 ,17 192:17 193:4 195:15 206:7 215:3 216:7 231:15 237:12 263:13 271:15 277:21 292:8 **Adam** 2:13 7:20 52:5 57:14 60:1 62:11 64:19 66:12 70:18 73:18 76:7 77:3 81:21 83:4 85:12,13 92:3 ,17 95:6 97:8 **add** 12:7 19:6 99:20 101:20 193:11 219:12 224:2 270:16 **add-on** 104:2 **added** 77:7 120:14 133:12 145:19 147:14 154:9 170:4 253:17 267:9 288:14 **adder** 230:15 302:6 **adders** 77:7 176:17 **adding** 70:6,10 93:16,18 133:18 154:19 167:19,20 239:20 288:12 **addition** 50:15 103:1 151:15 194:21 236:19 240:5 253:16 288:15 318:18 **additional** 9:8 19:19 25:19 43:7 45:6 50:10 61:13 66:4 74:13 83:20 95:17 99:13 119:2 133:7 140:16 142:14,17 156:17 169:14 178:10 219:12 227:2 233:15 237:12 254:16 262:8 263:10 279:22 291:16 311:20 316:10 **additive** 208:5 **address** 25:12 28:15 29:18 ,19 38:9 40:12 48:11 71:7 77:3 86:2,22 90:2 90:4 119:5 130:17 131:15 162:13 169:22 173:5 314:17 **addressed** 11:17 15:13 29:1 87:8,9 96:14 286:3 ,5 **addresses** 15:20 41:4 133:20 **addressing** 16:8 154:16 162:12 168:15 199:3 **adds** 99:17 **adjourned** 319:18 **adjust** 186:7 ,10 195:6 215:7 218:12 259:22 **adjusted** 32:21 196:7 317:19

**adjusting** 196:17 197:15 **adjustment** 194:20 194:22,22 195:6 195:10 197:14 215:11 **adjustments** 186:2 186:13 193:8 ,13 198:14 **adopt** 20:17 **adopted** 28:8 55:2 **advance** 12:13 18:13 309:22 **advanced** 125:18 ,19 125:20 **advancing** 12:16 26:5 **advantage** 295:22 **adverse** 22:22 24:12 **Advisors** 49:8 **advisory** 228:11 **advocate** 51:14,15 221:19 **advocates** 20:6 26:2 28:6 228:5 **AEO** 196:13 226:19 228:5 **affect** 42:10 **affiliated** 18:9 **affiliation** 5:16 49:2 **afford** 270:17 299:17 **after-the-fact** 40:16 **afternoon** 64:22 101:4 **AFUE** 18:20 19:3 20:18 23:2 29:22 46:19 47:16 48:1 53:21 65:3 ,8 80:9 80:10 86:8 88:18 108:1 190:6,10,20 190:20 191:15 193:10 204:4 211:8 219:12 246:19 248:10,16 248:21 249:12,14 249:15 282:18 **AFUEs** 109:7 **AGA** 10:11 12:3 ,8 20:5 ,10,14,16 21:4,10,20,21 22:5 ,14 28:15 32:10,11 37:14 123:14 137:14 207:9 233:6 240:1 251:17 274:1

292:11 309:16,21 310:10,22 311:5 **AGA's** 250:16 **age** 149:2 157:5 239:4 272:15 ,16 272:17 289:21 **agencies** 14:16 **agenda** 8:14,14 **aggregate** 66:15 99:8,9 123:9 235:5 ,14 242:8 278:17 292:3 315:5 **aggregated** 67:20 78:16 107:22 132:18 225:9,21 276:9,17 ,20 277:4 **AGL** 3:9 6:15 **ago** 14:2 38:8 39:18 40:17 106:19 256:21 257:11 317:20 **agree** 97:14 178:20 284:4 297:20 313:17 **agreed** 97:15 **agreeing** 294:18 **agreement** 40:20 53:13 81:12 240:10 **ahead** 10:8,18 12:20 74:20 84:22 88:14 92:17 97:7 106:15 114:21 157:16 160:12 217:8 243:22 249:17 289:12 306:18 316:14 **AHRI** 3:20,21 28:7 43:10 57:14 64:19 78:5 95:19 111:21 113:21 118:8 119:14 125:15 136:10 162:16 170:7 186:20 189:3 ,17 190:14 192:11 194:1 201:21 219:21 233:14 239:9,14 239:16 245:15 ,17 245:21 247:1 ,17 249:4,5 251:6 252:13 258:5 ,9,15 258:19,22 260:9 262:1 313:5The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 321 **AHRI's** 43:16 207:18 **AHS** 244:12 **air** 4:6 5:19 6:12 13:6 47:20 79:19 89:2 96:5 109:14 109:22 110:5 140:17 149:22 155:20 168:12 169:10,13 170:10 170:11 ,16 171:13 171:20,22 172:10 176:3 189:9,16 197:5 200:14 203:9 208:21 215:18 230:19 264:22 265:1 ,2 266:18 271:19 279:2 294:22 298:14 299:5 300:9 **air-conditioning** 96:2 271:14 **albeit** 15:21 272:16 **alcove** 163:2,9 **Alex** 52:18 **alley** 81:8 **Allied** 4:6 6:11 215:18 216:15 266:18 **allotment** 50:20 **allow** 22:11 111:3 162:9 274:3 **allowed** 49:16 56:6 56:8 235:7 307:9 **allows** 77:16 281:22 **alluded** 22:15 53:12 60:5 98:18 **alternative** 32:4 264:18 265:18 280:2,6,9 317:9 **alternatives** 15:1 **amended** 22:4,22 45:21 46:2,4,13 46:19,22 **amenity** 302:10 **American** 3:3 ,19 4:7 5:18 6:13 ,21 7:1 13:21 15:2 16:9 20:1 21:1 62:21 230:11 234:22 235:13 ,16 236:14,20 237:13 238:19,19 242:18 276:2 294:22 **amount** 38:2 41:13 44:15 58:20 160:4 171:19 245:2 **amounts** 40:11 49:22 **Amy** 3:20 78:4 86:6 86:6 **analog** 41:10 **analyses** 26:17 36:12 48:11 105:9 106:12 310:2 **analysis** 8:22 9:4,4 11:22 12:4 16:1 16:12 17:12 20:20 21:17 22:1 ,20 23:6,15 24:6,11 25:5 26:15 ,22 27:11 30:2,16,20 31:1 ,20 32:3 ,5 ,10 32:13 33:7 35:7 38:21 42:12,12,22 43:4 52:3 ,7 53:14 53:18 ,18,20,22 54:4,8,17 55:13 55:15 ,16 56:2 61:5 ,5 65:5 ,7 70:12,17 ,21 73:3 73:9 75:3 ,5 76:12 77:1 ,5 79:7 ,14 80:16 82:4 83:16 85:14 87:11 88:12 89:1 ,6 90:16 95:10,16 97:18 98:21 99:5 101:2 101:7 ,7 ,10,11 ,11 101:16 102:15 103:2,4,19,21 104:8 ,21 105:2,19 106:9,10 110:18 113:10 115:2 116:16,19 117:1 120:1 121:1 ,11 ,15 122:7 ,11 ,18,21 124:5 ,9 125:17 ,21 126:3 ,16,20,21 127:8 ,18,20 129:3 131:6 132:20 133:13 144:15 ,20 144:22 145:4,12 147:6,9 148:7 154:12,12,13 168:10 174:4 176:19 177:22 179:7 181:5 182:20 184:5 ,16 184:18 ,20 187:6 187:11 190:13 198:1 ,5 202:9

205:1 ,3 213:3 ,22 214:7 ,10,14,17 216:13 217:2,14 217:21 220:17 221:16 225:10 229:12,18,22 230:2 233:9 235:10 238:7 239:12,13 240:18 240:21 ,22 243:2,5 249:6 250:18 257:14 260:13 262:15 ,16 264:1 ,6 264:8 ,11 265:15 266:3 ,14 267:6 268:1 ,11 ,21 271:7 273:17 274:4,10 275:3 ,3 ,21 276:1 276:17 278:3 279:15 ,16 280:1 289:2 292:18 294:9 298:11 300:14 301:17 303:20 305:6 309:16 310:9,10 310:15 311:14 312:12 317:3 ,3 **analyst** 72:17 **analytical** 10:2,5 **analytically** 224:13 **analyze** 19:16 22:12 54:11 84:15 86:17 97:22 244:16 256:15 265:5 282:22 **analyzed** 54:19 55:3 55:12,19 56:17 90:16 114:10 131:10,13 185:10 244:13 **analyzing** 16:10 54:1 282:22 **and/or** 123:3 174:17 **Andrew** 2:14 25:20 25:20,21 38:8 47:10 74:15 75:14 110:11 113:19 119:17 146:3 220:22 224:6 260:9 299:6 **Andrew's** 47:6 81:16 107:19 **Aniruddh** 3:16 127:6,7 224:15 ,16 249:2 250:9 **announce** 319:2

**announcement** 319:5 **annual** 102:9,11 ,13 102:21 184:3 239:22 311:8 ,9 **ANSI** 196:10 **answer** 10:19,22 17:3 27:1 ,9 48:18 61:2 70:19 74:17 88:3 ,21 89:7 90:1 92:13 104:7 107:4 108:4 111:16 112:16 129:13 138:15 150:8 206:21 211:2 236:2 237:22 238:4 252:5 264:2 267:20 278:6 280:17 287:21 295:17 ,18 305:8 310:19 313:14,17 313:19 314:18 **answered** 17:5 27:10 61:9 71:3 160:12 161:5 289:7 309:6,8 311:2 314:6 315:1 **answering** 87:2 **answers** 17:9 48:4 61:7 161:2 183:20 246:17 267:16 268:5 306:16 308:2 310:21 315:16 **anticipated** 26:13 **anybody** 8:20 9:9 38:4 136:16 209:14 227:1 **AO** 195:7 **apart** 205:13 ,20 **apartments** 195:20 197:6 **APGA** 10:11 12:8 14:1 ,6,10,17 15:13 16:9 17:13 22:16,17 26:11 47:8 61:1 133:21 155:15 227:8 230:1 233:5 235:22 240:3 246:19 307:20 **APGA's** 16:17 **Apologies** 100:19 **apologize** 106:18 201:22 241:19 **apparently** 262:6

**Appearances** 2:1 3:1 4:1 **appears** 178:4 212:17 215:20 291:5 317:5 **appended** 14:3 **appendix** 34:8 134:1 135:20 160:22 161:1 181:20 182:16 183:18 187:10 188:1 ,9 193:1 195:15 202:10 229:20,21 235:3 240:6,6,12 241:3 268:14 292:15 ,17 303:16,21 **applaud** 32:9 110:15 ,20 **appliance** 25:21 138:21 **appliances** 18:3 ,5 159:4 **applicable** 133:1 ,15 143:12 287:2 **application** 19:1 104:6 263:6 **applications** 20:7 115:19,20 **applied** 62:9 63:2 93:5 104:4 109:5 111:9 112:2 121:18 122:4,20 126:2 142:7 153:1 161:18 ,18,21 ,22 170:3 183:19 229:18 243:1 ,8,17 **applies** 62:5 257:1 **apply** 34:16 96:7 110:22 122:7 125:2 126:3 159:6 169:18 284:16 **appreciate** 13:21 20:1 32:11 83:19 84:8 97:19 98:14 137:15 165:4 194:2 204:13 206:2 217:1 228:19 229:12 237:5 238:8 254:1 255:10 281:15 285:19 300:16 301:18 313:16,18 316:1 ,13 319:13 319:17The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 322 **appreciated** 165:11 250:7 **appreciates** 18:12 **appreciation** 313:13 **approach** 28:15 32:17 53:22 70:20 92:19 98:13 103:22 104:4 114:14 138:1 237:10 **approaches** 37:10 111:2 **appropriate** 19:4 39:8 43:14 115:5 137:22 155:8 156:15 312:21 316:7 **appropriately** 187:7 **approved** 47:8 171:19 **approximately** 14:8 18:8 134:13 **April** 17:11 47:8 319:3 ,9 **Archer** 73:1 75:22 76:2,11 **architecturally** 156:7 **area** 19:4 50:5 110:8 121:2 128:19 137:19 154:5 156:4 159:20 170:15 ,16 233:18 280:12 298:10 302:2 306:6 **areas** 21:7 24:6 48:20 236:17 293:16 295:6 317:2,3 **argued** 114:14 **Armstrong** 2:4 7:7 7:7 65:21 70:13 70:14 74:13 81:19 81:20 83:5 85:22 89:9 92:2,11 97:13 98:16,17 162:4 173:5 174:14 175:3 206:16 213:13 **array** 41:2 **arrive** 29:9,14 **ASAP** 2:14 **asbestos** 145:15 ,16 **asbestos-based** 144:13 ,19 **ascertain** 22:2

**Ashley** 2:4 7:7 65:21 70:13 74:12 74:18 81:19 90:5 92:3 98:16 162:4 173:2 213:13 **ASHRAE** 196:10 **aside** 313:21 **asked** 52:18 61:8 70:15 87:3 99:3 ,4 106:19 114:5 154:16 156:19 235:21 283:8 284:6,20 289:7 303:2 309:5 ,8 311:2 **asking** 10:12 45:12 47:20 97:9,9 215:6 223:1 **asks** 129:15 168:9 177:11 199:1 234:6 236:5 **aspect** 90:15 95:9 **assembled** 79:8 **asserted** 14:4 **assess** 25:15 74:6,10 151:4 **assessment** 54:10 54:19 74:2 79:2 **assign** 273:17 **assigned** 191:15 256:20 257:11 273:18 294:4 **assist** 16:10 **assistance** 16:22 50:17 51:2,8 **associated** 38:12 154:9 158:1 172:18 212:5 233:16 264:21 266:12 274:11 275:2 **association** 3:3 ,19 4:7 5:18 6:2,9,14 7:2 13:21 14:7 16:10 17:21 ,22 20:1 62:22 123:7 260:18 300:19,22 316:17 **associations** 18:10 39:11 260:12 **assume** 57:21 58:17 85:5 126:19 130:1 138:11 141:10,12 142:5 ,6,21 143:19 147:5 149:4,6 163:16 164:7 ,8

165:16 193:17 197:16 199:10 214:11 220:14 230:15 231:3 249:13 251:10 273:4 275:16,18 279:16 286:21 287:14 289:21 ,22 291:17 **assumed** 60:13 ,17 65:19 85:10,13 89:15 116:12 124:9 129:22 135:18 143:12 154:5 ,18 201:3 264:8 ,11 293:22 303:2 **assumes** 36:2 147:7 199:11 **assuming** 64:20 91:6 108:14 138:1 154:22 160:17 162:22 172:3 176:5 189:9 195:8 212:3 216:5 ,12 226:11 266:3 ,7 302:16 **assumption** 36:6 67:1 95:15 97:12 118:14 162:18 166:21 242:14 254:21 **assumptions** 21:8 25:14 60:16 69:15 136:20 163:20 165:9 166:15 194:16 200:16,20 201:4 203:8 237:8 251:8 253:7 ,12 266:15 309:21 313:3 317:4 **assured** 175:7 **atmospheric** 148:16 **attached** 152:16 **attachment** 223:15 **attempting** 110:9 **attic** 129:16 130:11 131:11 133:7 158:13 164:2,3 ,6 169:8 **Attorney** 2:11 **attractive** 31:13 **attributable** 251:20 **author** 90:9 **authority** 45:17 281:21

**authorized** 59:13 **Automobiles** 45:19 **auxiliary** 200:6 **availability** 192:10 276:3 **available** 13:5 20:21 22:15 51:8 52:15 55:4,7 64:1 ,9 68:2 71:14 75:1 ,6 85:18 150:16 160:7 ,22 161:1 165:8 175:15 198:5 234:19 235:2 237:16 239:10 240:16 241:2 254:2 276:11 ,18 277:1 278:19,20 284:10 **Ave** 1:7 **average** 50:6,7 54:12 66:18,19 67:4 68:8,9,9 80:18 81:16 122:7 122:15 ,20 134:9 135:11 ,13 141:18 142:5 150:9 152:14 154:22 161:17 165:18 167:3 175:14 197:16,20 202:19 208:2,3 ,7 209:1 210:12 212:18 ,22 223:12 224:1 228:7 229:18 ,19 230:20 233:8 241:1 243:12,14 244:13 278:22 281:1 303:12 304:21 305:4,5 312:16 315:5 **averaged** 243:15 **averages** 98:7 137:5 205:22 213:21 314:15 **averaging** 15:11 **aware** 60:6 92:22 **Awareness** 25:22 **awful** 136:20 **B B**  132:12 286:3 301:8,15 308:17 **b-vent** 168:11 ,12 **back** 10:1 45:8 60:1 60:22 74:14 83:8 83:9 91:10 92:3 ,6

92:18 96:15 97:18 100:22 107:18 108:3 ,13 119:16 123:15 133:12 136:11 147:19 152:20 158:4 172:9 179:11 ,20 181:8 187:19 189:4 190:17 200:18 201:22 206:16,17 208:11 211:3 ,17 219:9 220:19 224:3 231:9,21 233:2 234:9 236:13 238:10 242:9,10 244:1 247:5 250:14 256:13 257:5 263:1 ,20 274:21 277:14 283:21 289:18 306:19 319:8 **backwards** 119:11 **bad** 146:21 ,22 147:8 **badge** 100:16 180:5 **baked** 121:9 **balance** 97:20 **balances** 220:14 **Ball** 16:14,19,21 104:2 223:14 306:1 ,2 **Ballo** 2:11 **ballpark** 210:5 **Baltimore** 5:12 **banned** 291:1 **barriers** 23:12 **base** 102:2,14 146:5 191:15 ,19 192:8 241:15 244:21 245:5 246:1 ,18 250:17 261:18 ,19 263:5 267:22 268:3 **base-case** 104:22 **based** 11:20 22:18 25:22 31:9 33:13 64:10 66:20,21 69:15 ,18,20 82:16 84:7 85:14 92:20 94:11 105:22 106:7 108:17 109:20 110:13 ,14 110:17 116:3 122:21 124:15The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 323 127:3 128:6 136:21 145:8 154:1 160:4 165:9 166:14 189:17 191:2,7 192:19 197:18 213:2 217:5 225:12 237:10 239:13 245:14 249:7 251:2,7 253:21 269:4,17 ,20 274:22 275:20 317:8 **baseline** 11:9 35:1 54:20 56:18 60:20 64:21 65:9 66:17 66:19 67:2,4,6,16 70:5 73:2,8 76:4,5 76:12,16 92:20 93:1 ,5 ,12,14,22 94:10 95:1 105:22 114:12 115:4 121:15 ,16,17 ,18 121:19 122:5 124:6,8,9 125:17 125:22 126:3 127:14 146:11 ,13 198:11 225:19 228:10 234:12 282:18 **baselines** 71:2 285:15 **basement** 129:16,21 130:1 ,2,4 132:3 141:11 143:1 152:7 160:20 162:18 163:10,13 163:18 164:2,5 ,11 164:12,14,22 171:17 172:9,12 **basement-equipped** 172:3 **basements** 164:13 **basic** 50:13 128:12 132:22 133:10,13 139:21 308:12 **basically** 53:5 56:20 57:1 70:5 76:14 77:7 ,8 82:14,21 93:14 95:9 104:12 113:12 188:2 192:6,14 197:16 199:9 206:22 213:2 225:7 247:11 253:12 266:4 268:7 297:10,14 315:2

**basis** 32:18 49:10 51:13 99:9,10 186:22 190:10 220:9 247:8 279:12 298:12 **battleground** 294:19 **bear** 23:22 **bearing** 23:8 **beautiful** 156:8 **beauty** 157:5 **beginning** 36:22 232:19 277:14 **beginnings** 295:5 **begun** 30:19 **behalf** 49:14 **behavior** 32:22 112:5 261:4 **believe** 22:20 24:6 33:10 49:15 61:2 66:1 ,8 70:18 85:18 98:2 107:20 107:22 113:20 124:14 134:9 157:21 168:8 ,14 171:11 ,15 172:15 186:20 190:17 229:21 231:7 233:18 236:19 240:9 251:13 ,19 253:21 257:4 259:14 260:20 267:8 268:2,13 285:8 309:20 314:19 317:7 **belong** 271:17 **benefit** 23:7 42:2 120:7 214:11 ,20 215:2 220:10 305:21 309:3 **benefits** 25:1 30:8 33:11 37:12 112:7 306:9 310:12 **benefitting** 304:11 **Berkeley** 2:17 7:17 7:19 101:5 **Bert** 227:9 **best** 10:16,22 48:18 84:7 113:13 114:17 208:3 228:21 260:14 268:4 281:8 283:22 313:14 314:6,18 **better** 40:15 89:18 108:4 109:10 112:18 147:18 160:2,8 181:10 183:3 232:20 239:2,15 281:6 285:19 290:3 295:9 **beyond** 26:20 **bids** 138:17 **bifurcated** 207:3 318:14 **big** 9:20 55:10 150:12 159:11 180:7 228:22 241:20,20 256:3 261:20 **bigger** 185:16 293:7 **biggest** 27:15 202:14 **bill** 75:6 220:15 **billion** 20:9,11 30:9 30:15 ,15 37:15 50:18 ,19 **bills** 227:20 **biomass** 265:19 **bit** 9:22 12:22 37:22 47:6 58:7 62:8 65:10 68:1 73:19 82:5 89:12,21 101:13 103:6 106:19 117:17 119:15 ,16 124:5 126:18 138:10 139:22 140:21 143:5 147:21 149:1 153:18 181:10,11 184:1 184:13 186:1 ,3 187:22 190:14 199:4 206:4 207:14 211:12 220:16 255:7 276:6 277:11 283:12 286:14 288:17 306:1 314:7 **black** 98:9 **blast** 319:5 **blended** 243:14 **blind** 81:8 **blip** 255:6,6 **block** 227:14,18 229:1 **Bloomberg** 2:20 **Bloomington** 79:19 **blower** 88:21 93:9 157:11 193:11 199:2,5 ,9,13 200:4 202:2,14,18 202:19 203:17 210:18 211:1 219:10 230:7 231:10 **blue** 131:19 **board** 234:18 240:17 **boat** 255:7 **boiler** 129:4 **BOM** 71:10,14 **Book** 129:2 **books** 197:3 ,10 **bordering** 35:11 **bottom** 55:17 102:5 122:19 131:20 252:18 290:13 **bought** 36:3 58:16 **box** 95:6 98:9 103:3 173:20 182:9 **boxes** 45:13 128:13 142:19 182:13 **BPM** 73:4,5 ,10,11 76:3 ,13 ,17 85:16 93:8 224:18 ,18 **brand** 232:1 **brands** 64:5 ,13 ,16 **break** 9:1 ,2 100:13 100:13 147:12,17 179:19 **breakdown** 79:7 **breaking** 207:15 **breaks** 158:22 **Brenda** 263:17 **BRF** 295:1 **brief** 8:17 ,19 13:22 265:12 **briefly** 24:5 31:5 53:5 75:16 141:1 155:17 **bring** 43:12 83:5 ,7 107:17 114:1 160:3 176:21 ,22 206:22 257:5 279:22 **bringing** 160:3 **brings** 70:11 **broader** 113:22 **broken** 79:8 84:10 292:12,17 **Brookman** 2:10 5:3 5:11 7:22 8:7 12:22 17:18 19:19 25:19 36:18 42:5 43:7 45:2 48:21

52:1 ,8,21 57:13 58:11 ,13 59:2,10 60:1 61:10,12 62:18 63:10,13 64:17 66:12 70:13 72:4,21 73:8,13 73:16 74:12,20 75:13 ,22 76:7 ,9 77:3 ,18 78:1 ,7 ,19 79:3 ,16,21 80:22 81:5 ,19 83:2 84:16,21 86:4 88:1 ,14 90:5 ,13 91:1 92:17 94:2 95:6,13 97:7 ,16 98:16 99:13 100:12,19 106:15 109:11 110:11 112:20 113:18 114:21 117:8 118:7 119:2,13 120:16,20 121:12 123:1 ,12 125:14 126:7 127:1 130:21 131:1 ,17 134:2 135:8 137:12 138:13 139:5 ,18 144:9 146:3 ,15 148:4 149:12 152:11 156:18 157:4,6,15 159:2 160:9 162:15 168:7 ,17 170:6 171:9 172:5 172:14 174:7 175:4,10,18 177:8 177:16 179:12,16 179:21 181:2 183:8 187:12 189:2 190:4 193:22 195:16 196:22 197:12 198:2,22 199:7 201:8,17 ,20 206:18 208:17 210:17 211:15 212:9 214:4 215:16 217:8 218:21 219:8 ,20 220:22 222:11 223:16 224:15 225:1 226:6,15 227:1 228:2 229:15 230:12 233:13 234:5 ,14The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 324 235:19 236:3 ,12 238:1 241:4,18 243:20 244:8 ,10 246:21 248:6 249:2,16 250:7 251:16 252:3 254:3 255:9 256:10 257:19 259:11 260:20 261:10 262:7 ,12 263:1 ,16 264:9 265:8 266:16 267:10 270:14 271:6 272:2,10 273:9 274:13 276:15 277:5 280:19 281:14 282:12 285:4 286:6 289:12 290:17 292:10 294:16 295:14 297:3 298:9 300:17 302:12 303:22 306:17 307:11 ,18 308:14 309:10 311:3 ,12 311:22 312:6,13 313:10 316:14 318:22 **brought** 11:18 39:8 **Brundage** 2:12 196:6,6,17 ,21 290:17 ,18,18 297:21 **BTU** 20:15 53:11 55:20 82:1 **BTUs** 193:17 ,18 216:11 223:20 **Bud** 307:18 ,20 308:15 **budgets** 20:11 **build** 63:7 214:6 293:10 300:22 **build-up** 63:3 **builder** 117:21 119:7 ,7 **builders** 300:20,22 301:13 302:1 316:18 **building** 5:9 11:22 57:5 ,6 63:12,15 117:4 118:10,13 118:20 119:8 123:16 142:6,12 180:4 182:6 184:14,17 185:3 186:3 ,6,14 193:2

194:14,17 195:4,6 196:2,8 198:15 ,20 214:8 291:2 294:4 312:8 315:4,4 **building's** 192:15 **buildings** 118:15 150:1 ,3 185:21 186:16 274:16 **buildup** 63:1 **built** 114:17 129:17 143:11 176:7 194:15 213:21 302:10 **bullet** 130:11 189:5 195:5 267:11 **bunch** 10:2 119:8 ,9 242:4 271:1 **burden** 23:10 31:10 31:12 259:16 **burdens** 21:1 **burdensome** 23:3 **Bureau** 113:21 117:6 118:10,14 118:20 **burner** 88:20 89:16 192:7 ,13 211:5 **business** 13:1 49:8 115:12 **businesses** 18:1 49:11 **button** 88:5 **buy** 32:4 64:4 79:7 79:8,13 119:9 120:3 215:7 317:22 **buys** 36:3 **C C**  5:1 267:17 286:10 **c-becks** 184:15 **cabinet** 82:14,18,19 171:14 253:17 **cable** 261:6 **CAC** 173:21 **cafeteria** 180:7 **Calcs** 209:16 **calculate** 88:22 256:15 279:7 **calculated** 69:12,14 69:18 193:16 198:11 275:22 **calculating** 193:3 225:14 **calculation** 103:7 199:14 275:11 277:21

**calculations** 293:8 **calculator** 207:15 **calendars** 319:10 **calibrate** 59:9 **calibrated** 69:20 **calibrating** 57:12 **California** 135:14 144:12 **call** 41:12 72:19 73:14 96:13 98:1 108:11 125:18 ,19 176:17 194:6 207:20 212:20 227:6 261:1 317:4 **called** 155:1 156:14 209:15 240:17 261:22 **caller** 157:8 **capability** 281:18 **capacities** 82:3 **capacity** 55:20 56:22 82:8,9 134:9 192:8,8,10 192:13 205:19 216:5 ,13 ,18,18 295:7 **capital** 261:7 **capture** 111:14 **captures** 249:8 **capturing** 33:19 **carbon** 20:16 121:3 121:5 310:10 **care** 15:14 218:4 **carefully** 141:2 **Carlo** 103:22 **Caroline** 3:9 6:15 **carrier** 59:14 73:2 198:22 **carries** 171:12 **case** 19:8 37:18 38:1 44:3 ,3 62:2 78:14 102:2 116:6 119:7 119:17 123:20 124:4 125:21 126:17 133:4 140:9 143:16 146:5 ,8 156:2,14 156:16 158:19 167:4 169:9,16,17 171:18 173:21 177:14 191:15 ,19 193:19 196:14 197:11 207:16 208:3 ,3 211:12 235:3 237:9 241:15 243:13

244:21 245:5 246:1 ,19 250:17 254:6 255:7 263:5 264:14 267:22 268:3 270:2 280:4 280:11 284:6 285:10,13 288:7 293:15 294:21 296:1 ,9,15 ,16,21 300:10 **cases** 62:3 102:3 ,14 102:14 117:20 118:1 140:15 142:8 143:7 163:3 164:1 233:19 269:15 284:3 ,5 ,9 293:18 295:21 318:3 **catch** 130:11 144:16 **categories** 318:16 **category** 110:2 143:21 318:17 **cathedral** 141:8 **caught** 88:9 **cause** 146:22 **causing** 51:17 **CBECS** 198:9 **ceiling** 141:8 ,8 153:9 173:21 307:3 **cell** 13:7 **cells** 102:5 131:19 **Census** 113:21 117:1 ,6 118:10,14 118:20 239:1 240:1 **center** 158:12 242:2 **central** 74:4 158:11 169:10,13 170:11 171:2,6 175:22 176:3 ,7 189:16 214:19 264:22 265:1 271:19 278:13 279:2 286:19 300:9 **centrally** 163:4 **Centrotherm** 34:9 **cents** 224:1 **CEO** 49:7 **certain** 28:17 48:19 60:13 83:10 99:2 111:6 194:3 203:17 269:15 271:13 306:20,21 307:1 ,22 316:7 **certainly** 44:11 65:1

65:10 80:20 87:13 137:20 173:18 175:1 202:3 207:5 228:4 255:3 ,13 283:21 295:4 301:21 **certification** 245:21 **cetera** 15:11 48:13 82:13 **chafed** 228:5 **chain** 59:18 63:18 **challenge** 110:21 **challenges** 38:15 41:4,8 **challenging** 40:3 313:15 314:2 **chance** 98:15 229:13 311:5 **change** 25:9 33:7 44:6,8,8,10 55:8 62:1 66:1 ,10 82:16,17 112:5 120:10,10 157:12 178:17 196:8 ,9 227:19 259:15 298:21 308:12 310:11 **changed** 68:7 82:10 82:10,11 ,12 218:17 220:8 ,9 229:13 253:9,13 **changeover** 77:10 **changes** 11:11 25:8 44:17 53:20 61:21 62:7 67:11 69:3 71:20 196:7 299:9 308:9 309:1 313:7 **changing** 61:21 82:21 196:19 303:19 **channel** 115:11 ,14 116:5 ,12 **channels** 106:4 115:7 ,10 **chapter** 85:20 101:18 102:6 111:19 125:6 195:14 241:3 **characteristics** 128:6,7 129:14,18 192:9 **characterization** 102:6 183:22 **characterized** 106:2 **charge** 133:2The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 325 173:22 **charged** 64:9 **Charles** 3:8 4:5 **Charlie** 117:9 131:17 ,18 145:13 173:1 ,14 174:14 174:22 175:4 176:16 277:13 **Charlie's** 119:5 **chart** 101:10 128:2 129:9 151:3 169:3 170:8 181:20 183:6 190:6 202:19 226:9 254:12,18 256:13 258:6,12 275:10 292:12,22 298:12 **chase** 72:16 **cheaper** 218:18 288:5 **cheapest** 139:14 **cheat** 105:7 **check** 195:13 252:20 **checked** 203:16 **checkup** 133:5 **Chicago** 49:9 50:5 50:11 **chimney** 19:2 140:8 143:10,14 144:3 ,5 156:11 158:4,8,9 158:10,11 302:6 **chimneys** 143:8 **choice** 14:21 35:22 218:8 266:10 271:2 298:17 ,18 299:1 ,20 **choices** 24:15 50:15 **choose** 212:20 265:17 267:1 275:16 306:8 **chooses** 221:2,12 296:1 302:15 **choosing** 223:8 277:3 291:10,11 291:12 302:18 **chose** 205:13 302:11 **chosen** 56:5 289:15 **Christopher** 7:9 **Chuck** 4:9 5:22 149:12,13 157:7 195:17 197:2 **Chuck's** 201:18 **chunking** 98:5 **churn** 229:7 **circle** 97:18 **circular** 242:11

**circulating** 200:14 **circumstances** 19:6 28:18 **citations** 25:7 **cite** 46:11 **cited** 242:4 **citizens** 14:12 **city** 50:7 **clarification** 172:7 176:3 195:18 203:21 217:10 241:9 258:3 263:3 267:6 289:4 294:6 294:15 **clarifications** 308:10 **clarifies** 279:21 **clarify** 89:11 127:11 149:1 206:3 208:16 210:6 212:7 215:18 241:13 242:22 258:14 259:8 266:21 300:7 **clarifying** 216:3 **class** 15:9 242:19 296:13 **classes** 46:14 53:14 54:22 60:15 314:14 316:2,4 **classic** 188:5 294:22 **Clay** 4:7 7:1 ,1 19:21 19:22 73:20 78:20 97:17 **clean** 133:5 **clear** 21:22 26:18 30:21 282:5 **Clearinghouse** 117:7 **clearly** 10:21 111:20 264:3 293:1 310:15 319:2 **click** 179:17 **climate** 171:4 196:8 196:9,18,18,19 197:15 ,16,18 291:21 **climates** 317:1 **clogged** 100:21 **close** 19:5 55:22 152:9 166:19 246:13 261:13 313:12 318:8 **closer** 248:12 250:4 282:22 317:10 318:7 **closest** 27:21 155:8 **closet** 131:2,4,7 ,11 131:13 152:4 156:3 163:2,8 **Closets** 130:20 **closing** 9:9 25:11 319:13 **clothes** 63:22 **co-axial** 168:12 **coalition** 25:22 26:1 **coasters** 319:7 **Cochrane** 4:8 **code** 143:13 159:6 159:17 170:5 171:19 197:8,10 201:14 291:2 307:17 **codes** 162:9 197:4 **coffee** 100:17 ,21 **Cohen** 2:5 7:5 ,5 281:20,20 282:5 308:7 ,14 **coincides** 112:1 **cold** 158:5 **collaborating** 29:13 **collaboration** 28:5 ,9 28:14,22 **collaborative** 28:12 29:3 **colleagues** 107:14 **collect** 80:18 168:9 **collected** 54:19 123:3 249:5 252:16 268:20 **collecting** 252:17 **column** 148:10,11 223:9 **combination** 91:7 93:3 237:2 257:12 271:13 **combinations** 271:12,14 **combine** 235:10 239:7 **combined** 16:14 208:22 **combustion** 140:17 155:20 **come** 11:9 62:18 66:18 68:10,22 69:8 80:12 82:3 98:13 101:16,19 101:21 102:8,11 102:12,12,17 113:15 117:5 ,6,11

129:1 ,19 144:5 147:19 148:14 163:6 168:15 179:16,20 225:18 230:9 262:8 274:15 277:17 308:4 **comes** 11:7 44:7 81:22 116:20,22 117:3 147:13 ,15 160:21 177:21 178:18 195:7 222:13 227:19 238:18 240:16,19 252:15 287:4,12 **comfort** 214:12 215:1 220:13 230:11 234:22 235:14,16 236:14 236:18 ,20 237:1 237:14 276:2 278:4 299:6,7 301:12 **comfortable** 71:22 99:8 229:11 **coming** 37:7 40:20 44:9 54:5 ,14 83:21 109:9 110:16 120:19 189:1 198:7 199:12 202:2 228:4 235:6 258:8 **commence** 100:22 **comment** 8:11 9:11 9:14 11:21 17:8 22:10 25:17 26:9 45:12 52:8 62:18 64:17 70:12 73:1 73:2 77:19,20 78:2,5 79:3 92:15 95:6,9 112:21 113:5 119:3 ,11 126:9,9 127:1 131:8 137:2 138:14 145:2 149:15 150:5 168:14 172:21 176:14,21 177:6 177:10,15 183:6,6 187:18 197:13 201:9,13 ,18 208:15 210:17 226:5 ,14 229:6 237:6 243:21 244:10 249:16,19 252:4,11 255:10

256:12 258:2 260:8 267:8 ,9 268:15 271:9 272:2 273:2 274:20 281:14 283:5 ,18,19 284:3 284:9,21 ,22 285:3 285:16,18 297:2 300:15 301:19 308:5 ,20 310:15 312:7 ,12 313:9 **commented** 138:19 139:2 **commenting** 263:18 **comments** 8:18 10:8 14:2,3 ,6 17:19 19:17 ,19 25:20 42:9 43:8,11 45:14 52:13 61:13 95:11 99:13 126:22 127:18 134:2 136:9 147:19 153:17 165:4 172:15 175:2,12,16 178:22 179:12 192:3 212:8 217:1 217:6 229:17 230:3 237:20 242:1 ,16,22 244:19 250:6,16 257:18 263:19 269:2 271:9 272:1 285:3 291:16 303:3 311:20 312:2 316:13 318:21 **commercial** 117:4 118:10 185:5 **Commission** 116:18 **committee** 228:11 **common** 35:22 36:4 55:6 149:16 154:3 160:6 171:21 172:2 177:12 196:3 197:7 271:17 **commonly** 19:2 145:5 ,10,11 146:21 155:1 167:20,21 ,22 168:4 268:12 **communities** 51:18 137:17 **community** 49:9,15The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 326 51:12 **companies** 18:9 20:5 ,11 69:19 115:11 **company** 2:12 105:21 139:13 144:11 196:7 290:19,22 297:21 **comparable** 137:11 287:20 **compare** 12:4 58:9 59:6,20 124:8 136:18 137:6,10 240:8 ,8 278:22 296:5 309:15 **compared** 35:3 58:3 63:8 67:14 68:5 69:5 82:9 147:15 164:21 210:8 220:11 239:22 278:18 280:13 286:17 291:7 304:3 305:16 309:17 **compares** 93:22 303:14 **comparing** 62:10 68:20 205:15 210:7 218:10 275:12 **comparison** 11:5 44:1 56:6 63:5 76:2 124:2 126:15 198:8 207:9 209:19 229:22 230:1 275:15 **comparisons** 233:10 311:17 **compartmentalized** 164:15 **compensation** 114:15 **competition** 48:12 **competitive** 42:15 292:5 **competitively** 295:12 **complete** 13:4 14:1 75:5 272:4 **completely** 21:11 75:9 90:3 ,20 **complex** 16:18 22:13 ,18 101:11 117:17 **complexities** 172:16 **complexity** 21:13 22:8 207:6 277:1 281:12 **compliance** 11:10 15:14 46:22 47:17 60:8,9,11 **complicated** 11:18 85:7 125:12 126:19 151:3 ,5 152:21 268:13 **comply** 318:11 **complying** 27:3 84:13 **component** 72:11 72:13 78:15 98:6 129:7 142:14 168:21 178:5 188:19 192:6 193:4,8 199:14,21 200:19 202:15 208:4,6 232:7 ,14 244:22 301:10 **components** 57:3 77:8,14,16 82:11 82:16,20 91:5 ,8 93:3 98:5 128:21 140:20 177:2,3 184:13 192:18 193:12 199:17 200:3 ,3 ,6,6 230:5 230:6,7 234:11 245:1 300:20 301:3 **compounded** 207:7 **compressors** 295:7 **compromise** 282:4 **compromised** 34:1 **conceal** 156:6 165:21 166:2 **concealing** 140:17 156:1 165:13 **concentric** 188:6 **concept** 111:4 126:11 227:9 **concepts** 105:10 **concern** 15:4 17:7 30:22 38:19 48:20 314:14 316:9 **concerned** 14:19 18:14 19:11 20:17 21:4,16 23:2 24:16 41:17 145:19 316:21 **concerning** 20:21 **concerns** 19:8,15 29:2,19 78:17 85:3 90:6 95:18 **concert** 22:17

**concise** 13:6 52:13 **concluded** 228:14 **conclusion** 65:14 66:5 ,8 69:22 163:7 ,11 211:13 220:12 251:22 **conclusions** 59:21 311:7 ,9 **concrete** 216:9 **condensate** 128:14 128:15 162:7 ,9 169:1 ,12,14,16,18 169:20,21 170:2,3 170:10,17 ,21 ,22 171:4,12,13 ,14,20 171:21 172:11 175:13 ,20 177:1 177:11 ,13 183:17 187:15 ,20 200:9 215:22 233:16,18 234:1 ,3 **condensed** 206:4 **condensing** 12:13 23:13 ,14 33:14,16 33:17 35:2,5 ,10 35:14,20,22 36:8 44:14 50:1 ,8 55:10 58:2 62:2 67:9 70:6 73:5 ,11 76:21 126:5 ,6 128:15 ,16 138:4 138:10 139:11 140:13 145:12 147:14 150:13 ,18 153:14 154:19 156:12 162:20 163:7 166:6,7 ,9 168:1 ,22 170:20 171:15 173:8 174:6 182:10,11 183:17 187:14 188:4 190:15 ,22 191:9,11 ,12 205:10,18,21 208:4 209:4 210:20,21 213:4 219:16,19 233:20 245:20 246:13 247:4,12,16 249:11 253:15 254:17 ,22 258:15 264:16 272:5 273:13 274:18 295:13 298:19 299:3 302:4,8 306:13 ,20,22

307:13 318:15 **condition** 132:3 164:2 200:5 280:1 280:5 ,8 **conditioned** 163:13 163:16,22 164:3 164:11 ,12,15 ,22 202:4 **conditioner** 96:6 109:22 169:10,13 170:17 171:13 ,20 171:22 172:10 189:10 203:10 264:22 265:1 271:19 300:9 **conditioners** 109:15 110:5 176:3 208:22 **conditioners.cond ...**  189:17 **conditioning** 5:20 47:20 79:19 89:2 170:11 ,11 279:2 298:14 299:5 **conditions** 132:12 186:7 197:15 ,16 279:22 291:21 295:10 **condominium** 274:2 274:6 307:2 **condominiums** 306:21 **conduct** 46:1 **conducted** 149:7 239:1 274:22 287:5 **configuration** 152:17 168:10 269:18 **configurations** 314:12 **confined** 164:18 ,20 **confirm** 57:19 97:11 97:11 **confirmation** 162:17 **confused** 117:15 258:4 **confusing** 96:17 **congruent** 126:12 **connection** 261:6 **connector** 159:14 **connectors** 143:16 **connects** 117:20 **consequences** 20:20 23:5

**conservation** 1:2 5:6 15:15 18:13 20:4 45:18 **conservative** 221:7 222:9 283:14 **consider** 44:7 ,8 81:3 102:2,10 106:11 109:15 132:22 140:2,14,16 143:15 ,22 156:16 164:22 169:12 179:2 182:9 214:10 230:8 268:12,18 269:2 276:21 281:4,7 ,10 292:2 296:15 ,21 297:1 298:22 300:7 318:20 **consideration** 13:2 121:1 138:5 149:18 ,19 165:14 188:8 294:21 **considerations** 294:11 **considered** 24:4 106:21 107:8 231:13 266:20 271:5 272:15 274:4 292:7 297:6 312:9,11 **considering** 170:9 203:7 214:1 249:10 256:7 270:12 288:7 294:21 295:1 302:20 **consistent** 21:5 60:16 89:14 109:4 109:17 ,19 110:6 113:8 126:20,21 200:18 201:7 206:5 224:14 236:9,11 240:10 **consistently** 49:12 114:9 **constant** 73:3 ,5 ,9,10 106:13 216:6 224:18 **constant-torque** 76:13 ,17 85:16 **constraints** 253:17 286:15 **construction** 115:19 115:20 117:4,10 118:11 122:22The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 327 140:11 167:12 176:10,11 182:18 246:4,6,9,12 248:3 292:13 ,15 292:19 293:2,4,9 293:21 294:4,9,10 294:14,19 297:9 314:11 315:3 ,10 315:15 **constructive** 26:16 28:10 29:1 293:10 302:2 **consultant** 6:4 160:21 163:20 165:10 **consultant's** 161:6 **consultants** 236:21 237:7 ,7 **Consulting** 52:5 **consumer** 26:3 32:20,22 37:4,11 42:2 45:19 61:20 99:20 101:20 103:9,12 104:16 105:22 112:5 115:3 ,6,17 116:9 117:4,20 119:20 120:2,11 ,22 121:18 ,22 214:22 215:2 218:8 ,8 220:6,17 221:2,12 221:13 ,15 ,18 227:10 240:17 242:8 243:4 261:3 269:13 ,22 283:1 298:16 299:9 314:13 **consumer's** 255:1 **consumers** 18:17 21:1 22:21 23:11 23:17 ,19,21 24:2 24:8,13 28:2,16 30:8,13 ,16 32:4 34:14 36:7 49:18 75:21 95:10,21 112:8 ,9 115:15 221:20 222:5 ,7 223:11 224:3 227:20 229:4 245:9,11 256:17 257:9 265:16 266:4,8 268:3 ,19 269:1 ,19 278:10 279:9 285:14 299:6 303:12 311:18 314:16 316:2 317:8 ,17

**consumption** 30:7 93:1 ,8,10,21 95:2 102:7 147:2 184:4 202:6 203:1 212:21 214:13 215:19,20 219:11 219:18 220:4 227:19 **consumptive** 91:7 93:3 **contacted** 123:10 **contain** 71:16 **contained** 21:8 **contemplate** 83:3 **contemplated** 172:17 174:2 **content** 45:16 48:16 48:16 52:9 **contents** 257:20 **contest** 254:8 281:7 **context** 22:12 42:15 106:22 107:16 298:2 **continue** 27:7 29:3 36:16 37:2 38:16 39:21 40:2 111:2 314:15 **continued** 3:1 4:1 28:13 38:18 **continues** 19:16 35:12 37:18 ,19 172:20 **continuous** 200:13 203:6 211:6 **contract** 115:21 119:8 **contractor** 5:22 49:8 59:16 115:17 116:8 ,21 117:3 ,11 117:12,13 ,14,19 117:19 118:2,3 ,6 118:9,21 120:5 ,8 120:15 122:12,14 172:18 217:3 **contractor's** 123:7 **contractors** 6:2 16:20 64:8 117:2 123:3 ,8,11 137:4 137:18 172:19 173:11 174:5 ,18 217:4 **contravention** 15:19 **controlled** 190:7 **controls** 77:13 93:10 231:4

**controversy** 110:8 **conventional** 33:18 **conversation** 13:13 13:15 99:6,11 **conversation/** 83:19 **conversations** 318:2 **convert** 240:14 278:20 279:5 **convince** 272:21 **cool** 158:3 299:13 299:14 300:3 **cooling** 6:1 90:19,21 96:3 ,10,13 158:11 196:14 200:13 202:20 203:2,5 ,5 203:18 264:20,21 289:16 299:16 301:12 **COP** 295:9 **corner** 151:13 **corporations** 18:2 **correct** 35:10 58:17 109:2 118:14,22 119:12 124:22 127:13 ,16 131:5 136:3 ,12,14 137:1 162:21 170:12 172:13 179:8,11 181:19 190:2 191:18 195:22 196:20 201:19 202:8 ,15 203:14 209:6 210:16 217:6,7 ,13 ,17 ,22 218:2 230:17 248:17 254:21 256:16 285:21 294:2 298:15 **corrected** 31:1 **correction** 31:6 34:3 122:17 **corrections** 308:10 318:13 **correctly** 157:22 217:16 **correlated** 84:12 **correspondence** 55:1 **corresponding** 42:19 **cost** 9:3 11:19 19:7 22:21 23:16,18,22 25:4 34:21 50:8,9 50:15 56:13 57:7 57:10 58:19 59:7 61:4 63:4,12,19

63:19 64:10 66:19 67:21 68:22 69:2 69:13 ,14 71:10,15 71:20 72:11 ,12 73:2,8 74:1 75:17 75:18,20 76:5 ,16 77:1 ,8,9,15 ,16 78:13 79:6,9 80:9 82:15 ,21 85:19 93:5 94:1 99:17 99:21 101:2,17 ,22 102:13 ,18,18,20 102:21 ,21 103:12 103:13 104:15 ,17 105:15 115:12 120:2,14,15 121:9 123:22 124:4 127:5 129:2,8 133:9,18 134:1 138:5 139:9 145:12,19 150:10 152:18 ,19 153:1 ,2 153:5 ,22 154:10 161:19,21 162:8 165:18 166:2 168:6,21 169:18 170:9 175:14 177:22 178:1 ,6 179:7 182:4,18 183:16 187:13 214:7 215:4 218:16 220:5 ,10 220:10,17 224:7 229:20 230:9,22 231:10,17 232:5 233:6,15 234:6 235:1 236:17 244:6 267:3 270:3 273:19 274:9,11 277:15 279:1 280:4,6,14,15 283:11 285:15 286:18 287:11 ,17 288:10 295:22 296:10,13 ,17 298:8 299:2,21 300:1 ,1 302:21 304:11 305:19,20 312:16,18 317:11 **cost-** 39:5 69:1 **cost-driven** 35:13 **cost-effective** 31:3 41:3 **cost-efficiency** 66:16 67:19 69:7 **costing** 281:12

**costly** 51:4 **costs** 16:12 23:3 ,4,8 23:12,13 25:4 28:17 34:5 ,14,20 35:5 38:13 43:2 48:13 49:19 50:6 50:8 51:7 ,19 53:19 54:2 56:9 59:21 60:19 61:20 62:13 ,17 63:1 ,6 63:16,17 67:13 ,17 69:4,14 72:8 78:13 82:22 85:8 89:1 97:19 98:7 ,7 101:7 ,21 102:4,5 102:9,11 ,11 ,20 103:4,17 104:19 104:20 105:19,21 112:9,10 122:2 127:3 ,4,20 128:8 128:10,12,12,13 128:14,17 ,18,22 129:2 132:21 ,22 133:1 ,8,10,13 138:12 139:22 140:1 143:7 147:6 150:13 152:14,16 154:4,5 ,9 155:15 156:17 157:12 165:19,21 167:2,3 167:4,6,12,18 169:19,21 170:4 171:8 172:17 ,20 174:3 ,12 177:14 177:19,20,21 178:5 ,6,9,9,11 ,11 178:16,18 179:5 ,5 179:10 181:4,5 ,14 182:3 214:19 227:5 ,5 ,6,7 230:5 233:16 236:1 240:14,14 244:2 273:16,18 275:5 ,5 275:6 279:1 ,11 280:2,10 286:21 288:6,11 ,13 293:9 298:4 302:19 304:12 305:3 307:16 309:7 **Council** 6:21 7:4 36:21 **Counsel** 5:18 **Counsel's** 7:5 ,11 ,13 7:14 281:21 **count** 154:21The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 328 193:14 256:15 **counter** 289:2 291:8 **counter-intuitive** 277:11 **counting** 202:5 222:19 **countries** 18:11 **country** 12:15 121:3 122:9 135:2,3 ,6 135:12,16 136:7 162:1 211:11 212:15 ,20 213:18 225:13 275:7 290:7 ,21 291:7 310:6 312:20 **counts** 292:1 **county** 14:15 **couple** 28:4 35:3 39:17 43:11 70:16 71:8 74:13 91:3 114:1 128:20 153:16 162:12 182:2 184:11 213:15 229:9 235:18 239:2 250:2 269:7 270:16 286:13 287:6 295:6 309:18 310:21 311:10 **course** 9:13 15:12 24:21 93:9 **court** 42:18 47:8 **Court's** 47:11 **courtesy** 8:3 **cover** 53:2 96:16 115:12 121:22 **covered** 9:12 75:7 96:18 ,20 177:20 225:1 **covering** 53:14 118:15 **covers** 45:19 96:21 **Craig** 2:15 300:18 301:20 316:16 **crash** 261:21 **crawl** 129:17 130:7 160:20 164:5 **crazy** 98:1 **create** 49:12 57:5 **created** 108:17 159:5 **creative** 307:1 **creatively** 29:5 **creativity** 29:16 **credit** 120:7 127:3 249:21

**credited** 261:14 **credits** 34:2 112:1 ,3 112:6,7 ,7 ,10,14 112:15 119:18 120:6 254:11 ,15 **criteria** 22:3 48:5 130:6 185:5 253:9 253:13 271:17 275:20 281:5 303:19 **critical** 21:7 **crumby** 207:21 ,22 **Crystal** 16:14,19,21 104:2 223:14 305:22 306:2 **cuing** 72:22 **cumulative** 31:10 31:12 111:6,8 302:3 **curiosity** 241:7 **curious** 210:5 248:8 248:13 285:6 **current** 43:4 44:11 47:12 80:4 89:20 146:11 161:8 176:12 191:17 199:11 245:9 251:8 264:13 269:18 270:1 **currently** 15:22 89:19 92:21 144:21 150:16 165:9 173:10 185:10 210:7 239:5 248:19 **curve** 108:12 113:9 113:13 114:13 160:3 232:16 250:12 **curves** 110:10 114:3 114:7 205:12,20 **customer** 14:21 **customer's** 228:21 281:8 **customers** 20:14 **cut** 72:16 242:9 **cutting** 318:7 **CYBALSKY** 155:13 **cylinders** 18:6 **CYMBAKSY** 132:9 **Cymbalsky** 2:3 7:8 7:8 9:18,19 45:8,9 45:10 52:17 61:7 61:11 105:5

107:15 108:16 109:3 ,18,19 119:4 121:7 124:21 130:16 133:22 135:10 161:3 178:19 179:9,17 182:22 183:11 189:22 196:12,20 213:6,9 215:5 ,11 215:14 218:7 219:8 226:18 235:19,20 240:2 246:16 260:1 ,7 267:15 269:5 270:2 284:14 285:2 286:1 ,9 309:2,14 311:1 319:1 **CYMBOLSKY** 289:5 ,10 **D D**  5:1 286:3 292:15 292:16 **D.C** 5:6 **daily** 49:10 51:12 **Dan** 2:5 7:5 281:20 308:14 **Daniel** 3:3 **Darlington** 2:13 7:20,20 52:4,5 53:1 57:16 58:4 58:18 ,22 59:8 60:2 61:19 62:4 62:14 65:13 66:13 71:13 73:6,12 76:8 77:4 82:6 85:12 90:14 91:9 91:15 92:18 95:8 96:11 97:11 **darn** 261:9 **data** 10:2 11:4,12 15:10,10 21:8 25:13 34:1 35:3 ,4 35:7 54:18 66:6 78:18 ,22 79:2 80:3 92:20 98:10 106:7 ,7 ,8 108:17 109:9,20 110:1 ,2 110:3 ,13 ,14 111:15 ,16,18,20 111:21 ,22 113:20 116:20,22 117:6,7 123:3 ,7 ,8,9 126:10,17 128:22 129:2 137:3 ,3 ,6,6

137:7 144:22 146:1 158:21 178:4,16,20 179:1 179:2 186:22 187:1 188:20,22 190:8,14,18 191:2 192:10 197:17 198:9 220:3 225:18 ,21 226:1 233:11 234:16,18 234:22 235:2,5 ,6 235:8,11 237:1 ,8 237:12,14,15 238:6,6,10,11 ,14 238:18 239:4,8,8 239:9 240:16 244:12 245:4,14 245:17 ,17 ,19 247:3 249:8,8 250:20 251:6,7 ,12 252:15 253:2,7 ,10 253:19,20 255:14 256:2,5 258:5 ,5 ,6 258:8,9,9,10,11 258:14,19,20 259:1 ,6,6 260:3 ,4 260:9,9,12,14,19 261:18 ,19 262:2,8 270:3 ,5 ,8 275:21 275:21 276:1 ,3 ,5 276:6,8,12,13 ,18 276:20 277:2,2,4 278:4,19 283:16 283:17 ,22 284:4 284:10 287:4,9 289:20 316:5 **data-** 110:20 **database** 138:21 207:18 **date** 20:21 22:6,20 24:9 46:22 60:8,9 254:1 260:10,12 260:18 **dates** 196:14 **Dave** 3:19 4:6 6:4 6:11 ,13 13:17 ,20 61:16 130:21 ,22 190:4,5 215:16,17 216:15 234:14,15 255:9,12 256:10 257:19 259:11 260:16,21 266:16 266:17 276:15 ,16 285:4 286:1 ,6,7 295:14 302:13 **Dave's** 258:2

**David** 4:14 **day** 5:5 8:9 9:8,13 9:15 293:22 313:12 **days** 158:5 ,22 196:15 197:18 ,19 **DC** 1:8 231:15 **de** 65:14 **dead** 63:13 **deadline** 19:18 **deal** 11:22 71:8 82:2 120:8 154:17 175:8 199:4 228:22 244:12 250:16 262:3 **dealer** 64:3 117:5 173:15 **dealers** 116:2 **dealing** 127:12 169:17 198:20 **deals** 44:21 ,21 166:7 170:4 **death** 271:3 **debate** 221:22 **debated** 222:1 **debt** 251:18 317:9 **decade** 114:5 **decades** 114:2 229:9 229:11 **decide** 220:7 268:3 305:2 308:19 **decided** 211:10 **deciding** 301:4 **decision** 31:9 32:20 74:5 272:13 276:17 278:3 300:5 **decisions** 261:7 301:2 **deck** 48:14 **decks** 155:10 **decline** 31:17 **declined** 17:3 **declining** 107:7 **decrease** 65:17 198:14 216:7 251:1 304:16 305:4 **decreased** 50:21 253:18 **decreases** 106:9 304:16 **decreasing** 106:8 ,12 106:13 107:2,2,12 **dedicated** 19:3The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 329 301:15 **deemed** 19:10 107:6 316:7 **deep** 38:19 **deeply** 21:4 311:7 **default** 36:13 107:1 **defend** 261:8 **Defense** 7:4 36:21 **defer** 87:7 107:14 **deficiencies** 24:10 **define** 285:19 **defined** 93:2 296:3 **definitely** 98:20 145:1 208:16 297:20 **definition** 53:7 281:3 285:9 **degree** 154:20 164:18 196:14,15 197:18 ,19 218:19 **deLaski** 2:14 25:20 25:21 ,21 75:15 110:11 ,12 146:3 ,4 146:14 211:16 220:22 221:1 222:16 223:6,11 260:8 **delay** 22:9 158:14 210:21 **delays** 210:19 **deliberative** 17:5 22:8 **delighted** 38:13 **delivered** 37:4 **delivery** 146:18 **delta** 174:19 **demand** 81:10 90:22 **denied** 51:1 **dense** 319:16 **Department** 1:1 ,6 2:1 13:9 21:7 ,19 22:6 24:20 25:11 27:1 ,18 28:9,19 32:9,12 33:6,11 33:20 35:4,6,14 35:17 ,19 36:2,10 36:11 42:8 49:5 51:10 74:9 97:14 98:20 110:15 111:2 222:2 260:14 317:13 **Department's** 21:5 23:6 78:21 **depend** 115:6 **depending** 30:9 44:6 79:12 94:18 94:19 122:8 158:7 160:18 165:20 169:5 308:20 **depends** 29:16 32:16 65:18 94:8 110:5 134:8 308:9 **depiction** 117:10 **deplete** 50:16 **Depot** 64:8,13 80:19 **depth** 242:3 **derived** 105:21 243:4,6 **descended** 158:12 **describe** 71:19 101:18 102:5 128:19,19 129:8 146:8 151:2 153:17 190:8 **described** 28:16 34:7 105:3 ,16 150:19,22 153:7 155:9,11 164:17 166:15 ,18 168:3 182:5 186:17 187:22 188:1 ,9 194:21 198:15 202:10 225:16 237:13 ,13 268:10 273:3 275:1 ,4 **describes** 102:6 105:8 245:3 ,6 280:16 **describing** 103:18 104:15 106:4 115:14 117:18 188:10,16 191:19 193:9,13 199:16 **description** 165:5 182:1 212:12 273:7 **descriptions** 183:18 243:5 **design** 62:6 65:12 65:19 69:3 92:19 93:4 94:19 283:5 297:8 **designated** 263:8 **designed** 34:11 283:7 312:8 **designs** 56:9 210:20 **desire** 18:12 **desperately** 51:2 **Despite** 21:10 **destroyed** 290:22 **detail** 101:13 103:18 104:10 106:5 115:1 126:22 128:18 140:1 ,18 143:5 147:22 149:2 150:6 153:19 184:11 186:1 188:13 189:1 190:12 193:1 277:21 283:9 286:14 287:8 **detailed** 19:17 43:8 129:9 165:5 182:15 192:2 247:22 271:21 **details** 43:5 45:7 66:4 114:14 132:1 138:9 140:11 160:15 181:12 182:16 187:21 192:22 195:10 206:5 286:17 289:2 **determination** 78:12 105:13 190:9 277:17 282:7 **determine** 46:2 53:19 77:12 101:18 102:7 115:2,6 124:17 128:5 ,8 129:9 184:3 ,19,22 192:8 192:13 200:17 234:17 286:18 293:17 **determined** 83:15 105:14 192:14 199:2 202:20 203:4 **determines** 281:17 **determining** 141:1 141:4 **detriment** 15:2 **detrimental** 228:7 **develop** 21:22 38:8 57:7 67:16 69:10 83:22 111:3 236:22 261:8 **developed** 57:6 83:13 105:20 **developing** 28:15 32:18 54:12 66:13 **development** 16:8 49:8 239:1 **DFR** 11:3 47:5 109:13 129:4 138:18 139:2 160:22 239:22 242:16 **diagonal** 151:14 152:22 **diagonally** 151:13 **diagram** 115:21 277:7 **dialogue** 319:15 **diamond** 258:6 **Diane** 2:19 **difference** 48:10 58:6 61:4,17 77:13 82:15 85:20 88:18 94:15 122:5 133:19 135:2 168:6 198:13 204:19 207:11 213:15 ,22 219:17 231:14 303:18 **differences** 12:6 56:8 62:15 ,16 68:14,15 ,21 69:2 132:19 166:18 246:2,6 288:1 310:1 **different** 11:3 ,16 12:12,14 25:6 27:6 35:8 36:9 48:10 56:10 59:15 62:8 68:1 78:16 79:13 81:4 104:11 104:13 105:8 107:5 108:8 109:20 110:2 115:10 130:6 136:4 141:3 144:7 148:13 150:10,11 161:11 163:19 167:4 169:5 ,19 173:10 182:5 187:22 188:12,20 190:16,19 192:13 195:21 196:10 201:2 205:19 206:1 ,8 212:2 213:17 ,18 214:7 229:19 230:5 ,6 234:11 240:7 ,21 245:7 246:1 ,15 247:15 256:19 257:3 ,16 261:1 ,7 268:17 272:7 274:5 275:5 ,6,7 ,8 276:5 ,20 281:11 282:11 293:3

294:10,11 303:16 304:12 305:14,18 306:3 307:7 310:19 314:11 ,12 315:20 316:2 **differential** 69:4 102:2 124:15 173:12 200:10 233:7 **differentiation** 131:4 **differently** 314:14 **difficult** 38:12 124:5 227:17 285:5 **dig** 147:18 **dimensions** 57:4 **dining** 307:6 **dioxide** 20:16 **dip** 250:13 **direct** 11:4 15:6 16:17 18:21 20:7 46:18 56:6 96:15 105:21 140:17 155:20 160:15 ,18 161:13 ,16,19,20 162:2,19 163:9 164:20 178:10 188:6 238:9 242:15 265:18 270:7 273:11 287:9 301:5 ,7 **directed** 46:1 **direction** 317:6,15 **directly** 70:19 78:5 123:11 129:11 188:7 237:14 245:17 **directory** 192:11 245:21 247:7 ,17 249:4 **disaggregate** 112:14 182:4 247:16 294:5 **disaggregated** 144:7 225:22 240:20 245:19 246:1 263:8 ,10,12 276:5 290:12 292:8 315:13 **disaggregates** 268:11 **disaggregation** 109:10 182:7 247:15 315:9 **disagree** 77:21The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 330 220:2,12 221:1 223:6 284:15 313:17 **disassemble** 57:2 **discharged** 19:4 **disciplined** 52:10 **discount** 30:9 102:15 104:22 179:15 238:16 240:13 ,13 ,20 241:2,21 242:3 ,5 242:12,13 243:8 243:17 ,18 256:13 256:14,17 ,19 257:1 ,3 ,10,11 ,13 257:16,17 312:5 312:21 317:7 ,10 **discounted** 102:17 102:19 179:11 **discredit** 81:13 **discrepancy** 34:21 **discriminating** 14:21 **discuss** 101:21 179:15 197:14 199:5 238:16 257:6 **discussed** 40:19 101:15 ,17 105:10 105:18 113:13 115:5 116:17 ,19 127:19 139:21 146:19 181:13 184:12 187:9 192:20 222:4 240:12 299:6 **discussing** 45:20 103:5 105:13 133:16 140:18 177:2 184:7 ,10 230:4 241:15 243:2 **discussion** 25:18 41:6 43:6 52:10 65:22 81:8 83:20 89:8 97:19 101:14 104:12 119:16 123:21 224:22 **discussions** 28:14 29:4 36:15 38:11 39:10,13 ,16,17 ,21 88:17 239:14 315:20 **dishwashers** 114:20 **disposal** 133:6 **disproportionately** 23:20

**disservice** 221:17 **dissipating** 17:8 **distance** 142:21 143:3 ,4 153:10 **distances** 142:17 **distinct** 97:4 **distinction** 108:10 **distinguishes** 115:18 **distort** 112:4 **distorted** 113:14 **distortion** 112:5 113:17 **distorts** 119:19 **distribution** 14:8,11 14:14,17 35:18 ,20 59:18 63:18 106:3 115:7 ,10,11 ,14 116:5 ,12 141:19 142:7 165:19 175:15 186:9,13 198:17 ,18,21 238:17 239:6 241:16 243:6,10 243:12 244:21 245:5 246:14 247:8 ,19 249:14 263:6 276:7 ,18 278:16 287:19 289:15 ,22 304:8 304:10 312:20 313:1 **distributional** 122:8 **distributions** 104:1 104:5 105:1 241:1 241:2 250:18 **distributor** 59:14 **distributors** 18:5 123:10,11 124:4 **districts** 14:15 ,15 **divide** 192:15 287:15 **divided** 193:14 **division** 31:21 **doable** 281:16 **docket** 27:7 52:19 61:11 66:5 111:17 161:7 ,8 240:3 309:4,17 311:6 **docketed** 246:17 ,19 289:6 **document** 39:1 61:10 91:4 181:18 206:10,11 ,12 265:14 **documentation**

206:15 216:3 **documents** 21:3 ,9 22:18 31:4 **DOE** 2:3 ,4,5 ,6,7 ,8,9 7:6,7 ,8 12:11 14:2 15:5 16:12,19 17:1 ,2,15 20:17 21:3 ,11 ,17 23:21 24:11 ,12,16 25:3 26:9,11 ,19 31:3 ,6 31:8,11 ,13 ,19 34:6,16,19 39:13 41:1 ,7 43:16 45:10 46:1 ,4,9,12 46:18 47:7 ,8,9 48:10 51:3 52:16 53:21 54:2,4,11 54:19 55:3 ,5 ,16 56:8,17 57:2,6,9 60:6,12,16,19 61:9 65:21 66:3 66:17 ,22 67:8,14 68:13 69:22 71:1 75:16 83:10 84:10 87:16 90:16 92:3 92:19 95:8 96:15 99:8 105:5 107:15 108:13 109:19 110:18 ,20 112:13 114:2,11 115:18 116:10,12 119:5 121:7 ,15 ,18 122:4 124:22 136:17 139:3 143:15 147:5 153:22 154:18 155:13 161:3 ,5 162:4 172:17 174:2 178:1 ,19 182:22 189:6 196:12 213:3 ,13 215:5 219:12 220:2 226:18 227:11 229:2 235:20 236:5 240:2 245:13 260:1 261:8 269:5 277:18 281:4,9 283:20 284:14 287:5 289:8 **DOE's** 16:21 18:12 22:20 23:15 30:1 30:19 31:1 35:1 84:4,7 91:17 114:8 318:3 **doing** 12:15 26:14

90:7 110:12,13 136:6 154:6 167:15 177:4 196:13 227:13 228:15 ,16 229:4 269:9 275:10 281:3 ,18,19 288:12 306:6 313:14 **DOJ-ATR** 4:12 **dollar** 125:3 136:13 223:21 270:20 299:7 **dollars** 20:10 30:9 30:15 37:16 38:20 39:3 95:4 99:21 136:21 179:5 226:11 278:21 279:5 ,6 **domain** 21:19 74:6 **Don** 196:6 290:17 290:18 297:20 **Donald** 2:12 **doors** 155:10 **double** 139:10 159:13 195:13 232:22 236:3 **doubling** 33:17 ,18 111:5 ,8 **Doug** 2:10 5:11 9:19 45:9 73:7 265:13 273:10 **Douglas** 4:12 **downstream** 82:3 **downward** 250:11 **draft** 18:22 143:18 143:20 144:2 146:10 149:5 ,10 150:16 157:2,3 ,10 157:14 159:4,12 227:11 257:21 **drafting** 158:5 **drain** 171:1 ,14 172:11 177:13 ,13 **drained** 170:17 **draining** 162:9 **dramatically** 25:9 250:21 **drastic** 25:8 **draw** 41:1 **drawing** 178:3 **drill** 151:17 ,20 152:3 ,8 **drilling** 153:22 154:2,10 **drip** 169:20

**drive** 38:14 300:5 **driven** 31:17 110:21 111:5 ,14 254:11 **driver** 61:2 67:12 93:7 **drivers** 248:18 **driving** 61:22 71:20 96:2 **drop** 254:5 **dropped** 252:18 253:14 259:19 306:18 **dropping** 242:19 **drops** 291:20 304:2 **Drumheller** 2:15 300:18 ,18 316:16 316:16 **duct** 133:8,9 146:20 146:21 ,22 147:7 147:15 157:11 168:12 173:20 207:20,20,21 208:6 **ducts** 147:9 **ductwork** 146:19 **due** 21:20 23:5 29:10 100:12 286:15 288:10 **DuraVent** 34:9 **E E**  4:10 5:1 ,1 61:3 181:1 ,1 **eager** 83:2 **earlier** 30:20 53:13 60:6 61:1 67:1 70:4 97:19 98:18 101:15 105:18 113:13 115:5 116:18 123:15 155:9,12 166:15 168:3 170:1 176:22 182:5 198:15 200:7 202:19 268:10 296:21 **early** 8:8 26:14 127:22 **earth** 172:13 **EarthJustice** 2:11 **easiest** 151:8 **eat** 179:19 **ECCO** 4:4 **echoing** 201:17 **ECM** 77:12 79:10The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 331 212:4 **economic** 21:1 22:20 30:18 32:3 32:18 38:3 45:1 49:11 ,12 51:15 103:9 110:17 ,18 214:11 ,20 215:2 221:4,16 269:10 299:10 312:22 **economically** 24:4 30:13 43:19 48:9 74:2 **economics** 214:13 275:1 306:12 310:8 313:1 **economies** 80:11 **economists** 242:4 **Economy** 6:22 **Edison** 3:15 6:17 42:6 91:2 175:19 194:12 208:18 223:17 226:7 248:7 265:9 297:4 **educated** 260:6 **education** 172:18 **EE** 233:1 **EEI** 4:9 91:20 92:7 94:3 176:5 197:22 241:5 268:16 269:3 ,14 270:9 277:6 **effect** 34:2 39:8 49:17 60:18 65:11 112:6,14 158:11 175:2 213:4 214:6 214:11 ,15 216:14 217:11 ,14,18,20 221:22 222:15 ,22 223:4 224:4,11 **effected** 38:11 314:16 **effective** 37:8,16 41:21 47:14 **effectiveness** 39:6 93:6 **effects** 24:13 83:19 266:12 **efficiencies** 216:8 246:1 **efficiency** 12:10,16 15:3 18:13 20:6,8 20:12,13 26:2,6 35:18 ,20 36:22 37:11 ,13 ,15 ,20 38:2 39:12 49:6 49:17 51:14,17 53:20,21 54:1 ,10

54:17 ,18 55:7 ,12 55:18 56:4,7 ,10 56:13 60:20,20 65:17 ,18,20 67:12 67:18 68:21 69:2 69:3 ,16 93:2,15 93:17 ,18 94:7 ,10 94:11 ,14 105:1 ,20 111:13 122:3 133:2,14,19 137:9 137:9 138:22 172:17 ,22 190:16 190:16 191:8 194:15 ,18 195:5 ,7 196:8 198:16 214:7 215:21 216:6 218:9,9 221:19 241:16 244:21 245:5 ,7 ,10 245:12,20 246:14 246:19 247:15 ,19 250:18 253:14,16 261:20 263:6 278:11 ,18 279:10 279:14 282:17 ,20 283:2 284:17 287:1 290:9 291:18 ,20,22 298:4 302:5 **efficient** 6:22 15:1 55:4 215:8 216:10 220:6,21 221:13 221:21 244:3 249:22 250:4 267:4 **effort** 16:20 81:13 81:15 **efforts** 84:8 158:19 313:13 ,16 **EIA** 121:10 225:18 **Einstein** 261:14 **Einstein's** 281:3 **EISA** 46:4 **either** 21:18 49:22 76:21 98:5 118:4 124:3 ,12 134:9 137:4 150:15 207:17 227:7 271:2 276:5 285:1 299:16,21 300:11 303:8 **EL0** 219:3 **EL2** 223:18 **elaborate** 90:10 **elbow** 154:21 **election** 223:12

**electric** 3:15 6:18,20 31:19 32:1 42:7 42:10 47:4 50:2 51:5 53:8 91:3 133:6,15 144:11 175:20 176:18 194:13 202:5 207:12 208:19 223:18 226:8 229:8 248:8 264:18 ,19 265:6 265:10,11 270:21 275:14 286:19 287:8 ,9,22 288:2 288:4,4,9,12,16 288:22 290:11 ,15 290:20,22 291:4,6 291:11 ,13 293:6 293:12 296:6 297:5 ,13 300:12 301:3 ,9 303:8,10 305:2 **electrical** 47:2 93:3 139:15 153:21 154:3 ,6 169:19 177:2 192:18 193:12 200:3 ,18 215:18 ,19 288:13 296:11 **electrician** 135:22 **electricity** 30:7 50:6 53:9 94:17 147:2 147:5 ,13 ,21 184:9 188:15 ,19 199:4 199:10,12,16,18 200:10 201:2 210:4 211:10 212:5 219:1 ,18 223:22 225:15 275:8 280:12 292:4 **electronic** 200:5 **electronically** 52:16 **elements** 83:10 **eliminating** 14:19 **ELs** 219:1 **else's** 307:8 **emailed** 52:18 **emerge** 295:11 **emission** 121:6 **emissions** 42:12 311:11 **Emol** 187:16 **empirical** 301:22 **employment** 9:7 **enabling** 112:11

**encourage** 84:3 111:1 260:11 ,16 260:17 263:18 **encouraged** 197:2 **encouraging** 38:16 **ended** 98:7 **ends** 39:9 100:16 180:6 **energy** 1:1 ,2,6 2:1 5:6 6:22 12:16 13:9 15:1 ,15 16:8 18:13 20:3 ,6,8,11 20:13 ,15 21:2 26:2,5 30:13 ,17 31:2 36:22 37:1 ,5 37:11 ,13 ,15 42:1 43:19,22 44:1 45:18 48:13 49:17 49:19 50:17 51:10 51:14,16 91:7 95:2 102:6,7 ,8,9 102:16 104:19,20 183:22 184:3 ,8,14 184:16,19 187:11 188:22 193:5 ,7 209:15 211:14 214:12 215:3 ,21 218:10 220:10 221:19,20 222:13 224:7 225:4,5 ,9 225:11 ,13 ,14 226:22 227:10,13 229:20 236:20 245:16,18 248:19 248:19 251:2,3 ,7 252:16,21 253:9 253:19 259:10 279:1 ,10 280:10 283:11 287:1 ,1 291:18 312:8 317:11 ,14 318:10 **Energy's** 49:5 **energy-efficient** 51:5 **enforceable** 41:20 **enforcement** 40:17 **engaged** 16:7 ,9 18:2 **engineering** 8:22 52:2,7 53:17 ,18 54:4,8 55:16 70:17 95:16 97:17 101:16 105:18 116:19 122:11 **English** 3:13 **enjoy** 160:3 **enormous** 30:17

**ensure** 178:15 **entered** 18:22 **Enterprises** 4:6 **entire** 32:6 80:4 81:13 96:16,21 312:8 **entirely** 64:10 80:2 **entities** 14:12 **entitled** 161:4 261:1 **envelope** 194:7 **environment** 28:3 39:12 **environmental** 9:7 23:4 26:2 37:4,11 42:2 121:8 270:4 293:15 310:12 **envy** 283:20 **EO** 226:1 **EPA** 258:5 ,10 259:6 259:15 **EPCA** 15:19 22:3 23:22 45:17 ,21 46:4 48:10 53:7 281:22 **equal** 205:17 **equally** 62:5 109:5 228:7 **equation** 120:11 184:6 272:16 279:6 298:6 **equations** 103:14,20 192:21 **equipment** 18:4,6 32:5 ,7 33:12 54:22 63:1 ,8,9 91:14,18 92:9,12 94:5 ,12,16,22 95:1 115:4,6,8,12 116:7 117:21 ,22 118:2 133:15 136:8 138:4,7 167:14,16 171:17 173:17 177:20 178:8,9,11 179:5 215:8 239:4 264:7 264:21 265:18 ,19 270:7 278:11 ,12 278:14 287:14 289:16 295:1 298:7 318:5 **equitable** 314:3 316:11 **equity** 314:3 **equivalent** 121:17 149:19 154:22The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 332 214:12 215:3 304:10 **Eric** 2:6 7:14 **err** 158:20 **erroneous** 266:15 **error** 170:14,14 300:14 **errors** 15:5 16:4 **escalation** 317:11 **especially** 22:7 23:9 89:1 94:13 ,22 143:10 173:17 194:13 ,15 235:1 248:18 253:7 263:19 272:13 291:3 292:22 297:18 ,21 311:10 317:2 318:5 **essential** 114:15 **essentially** 11:8 31:11 75:5 127:9 139:7 141:2 145:17 163:1 164:18 186:5 191:1 192:12 195:7 255:20 278:5 281:22 294:18 296:2 306:5 **established** 22:3 45:18 46:8 47:2 47:14 92:20 251:20 **establishing** 22:4 **estimate** 36:10 57:7 59:1 ,7 68:11 69:11 82:22 112:19 116:12 207:15 222:9 226:9 **estimated** 31:3 33:3 33:4,5 35:17 54:2 66:22 69:22 82:15 153:22 158:18 212:21 **estimates** 24:18 ,19 57:10,12 66:14 68:22 69:7 ,8 71:16 93:20 94:1 154:3 242:13 318:6 **et** 15:11 48:13 82:13 **evaluate** 125:10 222:9 **evaluated** 213:10 **evaluating** 32:16 218:9

**evaluation** 103:9 221:6 **event** 17:11 **eventually** 286:10 **Everett** 81:22 113:5 123:2 126:8 ,10 218:22 244:11 **everybody** 27:10 28:6 36:2 100:22 170:16 183:3 228:8 318:8 ,9,11 **everybody's** 10:22 48:18 **everyone's** 263:18 **evolve** 110:19 **evolving** 252:10 **ex** 11:15 **exact** 32:1 124:19 254:13 **exactly** 68:6 92:6 118:9 148:21 217:19,22 218:4 222:14 234:10 248:1 313:1 **example** 11:6 18:19 23:20 39:1 ,7 40:8 40:16 41:9 55:9,9 59:16,19 64:1 ,13 78:13 80:6 99:3 109:7 ,22 129:15 129:22 130:1 ,2 136:4 141:5 ,10 142:19 143:1 149:3 151:13 152:6,20 154:6 161:13 164:1 169:7 176:22 191:3 198:15 201:4 230:7 ,21 235:12 237:6 246:11 265:17 272:16 273:4 274:6 280:11 283:2 288:18 292:8 300:10,10 303:7 304:17 305:1 306:7 315:6 **examples** 15:7 **exceeding** 20:9 150:2 **Excel** 104:1 **excellent** 194:19 272:20 **exception** 191:16 **exchange** 17:15 27:8 116:18

**exchanger** 67:10,11 70:6,8,9 78:14 82:11 ,19 267:3 **exclude** 255:17 **excuse** 95:5 106:18 **Executive** 13:20 **exemption** 41:12 **exemptions** 318:18 **exercise** 53:6 **exist** 76:19,21 77:22 154:11 270:5 317:2 **existing** 18:22,22 19:5 35:5 46:22 50:2 77:1 133:3 134:13 144:4 148:6 156:13 190:6,10 193:10 248:16 **exists** 221:22 260:3 260:4 **expect** 27:3 29:12 31:1 75:4 291:10 **expectation** 29:8 **expected** 29:12 60:9 115:20 305:14 **expenses** 105:21 122:1 ,2 **expensive** 50:1 135:1 ,5 136:5 139:13 269:8,12 269:15 ,19 299:2 302:6 317:1 **experience** 16:17 23:18 100:1 108:2 159:19 160:5 301:22 **expert** 194:2 237:7 **experts** 16:5 17:16 **explain** 82:4 104:3 216:1 217:12 247:21 250:15 253:8 277:22 304:1 308:17 312:15 **explained** 63:3 268:14 **explains** 183:15 **explanation** 71:7 275:22 308:5 **explanations** 25:7 **explore** 81:15 111:2 **exposed** 158:10 **express** 17:13 207:1 313:13 **expressly** 45:12

**extended** 183:10 220:18 266:19,22 267:7 **extension** 22:10 **extensive** 8:19 **extent** 27:2 99:2 **exterior** 142:4 **external** 158:9 **extra** 254:19 **extrapolate** 82:1 **extrapolated** 255:18 **extrapolation** 82:4 **extremely** 158:3 **eye** 181:9**F F**  181:1 **fabricators** 18:6 **face** 25:6 34:14 186:5 **faced** 28:17 298:17 **facilities** 14:17 **facing** 270:1 **fact** 23:4 76:10 96:1 109:15 118:15 119:22 120:9,13 146:20 172:7 ,9 177:1 189:6 215:21 218:11 ,16 220:5 ,8,18 221:4 221:5 ,20 222:8 228:7 233:22 244:12 252:16 254:5 ,6 255:7 272:3 282:21 288:9,10 298:3 299:7 312:7 313:18 **factor** 61:5 ,22 65:7 110:9 194:22 197:14 215:12 272:14 298:11 299:19 **factored** 65:5 113:9 176:18 232:6 **factoring** 218:11 250:13 **factors** 21:21 23:5 48:10 93:9 125:2 141:3 150:19 188:12,20 194:20 194:22 195:6 207:7 276:21 282:6 310:10 312:22 314:13 **failed** 21:19

**failing** 230:8 **fails** 230:22 232:5 289:20 290:1 **failure** 15:7 ,9 231:2 231:12,14 232:3 232:19 236:7 ,10 **failures** 236:5 **fair** 41:13 160:4 **fairly** 40:7 69:3 108:14 164:13 166:11 167:6 238:22 246:13 252:8,10 264:5 268:13 ,14 273:5 274:15 292:5 **fall** 26:14 33:6 143:21 185:14,18 **falls** 184:20 185:10 **familiar** 100:15 180:4 **families** 49:20 50:11 50:14 51:4,9 **family** 291:1 **fan** 11:6 60:10,12 71:1 82:13 85:11 85:13 86:2 96:13 96:18,19 124:7 ,10 126:4 127:15 199:10 200:5 ,11 200:12,13 ,14,17 200:20,21 201:7 203:1 ,1 ,3 ,6,8 207:1 ,8 208:20 211:7 215:21 230:7 ,22 231:3 ,10 232:7 236:5 241:22 253:14 312:2 **fans** 60:5 ,7 61:18 85:15 ,17 126:18 147:10 209:19,20 231:9 **fantastic** 37:17 **far** 26:11 27:15 61:19 62:10 65:15 79:6 141:17 151:12 172:2 177:11 ,20 208:3 295:12 **fashion** 15:22 **faster** 33:17 108:21 109:6,14 **favor** 228:15 **favorable** 29:15 **favors** 229:4The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 333 **feasible** 48:8 **feature** 305:22 306:2 **fed** 83:1 **federal** 34:2 36:22 46:11 192:20 240:16 249:20 280:21 **feedback** 13:12 57:11 66:21 92:21 99:1 ,1 165:10 178:21 217:3 246:4 **feel** 12:15 53:3 71:5 71:21 99:12 113:22 114:15 158:19 283:16 289:4 290:2 314:6 **feeling** 86:21 100:11 147:11 **fees** 133:6 **feet** 141:6,7 142:21 143:2 154:20 155:3 158:13 228:9 **Feinstein** 2:16 **FER** 205:11 ,16 231:15 **Fernstrom** 221:9 **fewer** 51:8 **field** 126:13 158:21 159:19 220:4 **Fifth** 34:18 **figure** 39:1 85:8,10 113:7 132:4 202:17 ,21 313:18 **figures** 290:13 311:8 **filed** 242:1 **filings** 227:18 **fill** 90:11 **filter** 234:3 244:1 ,3 **final** 11:4 15:6 16:17 29:9 31:7 46:9,12,18 47:16 47:16 55:3 60:5 ,7 60:12 86:17 87:9 96:16 129:4 133:19 179:12 200:17 236:11 290:4 311:13 316:18 **finalize** 280:1 311:19 **finalized** 11:7 19:12 83:22 84:4 88:6 88:12

**finally** 25:3 35:16 153:15 185:8 200:9 **finances** 240:18 **Financial** 117:1 **find** 33:1 34:3 43:13 49:10 51:16 98:3 98:15 111:15 157:19 221:6 233:1 237:21 273:11 304:10 **finding** 295:6 **fine** 270:7 **finger** 110:22 **finish** 78:6 319:3 ,4 319:11 **finished** 130:4 174:12 317:3 **fire** 204:15 ,15 ,16,17 204:18 205:4,4 265:17 **fired** 266:1 **fireplace** 302:7 **firing** 159:9 **first** 13:18 24:12 26:8 31:8,16 33:13 42:17 43:12 44:4,6 45:22 54:16 76:10 84:18 101:15 103:6,7 104:15 105:12 114:1 118:13 128:10 129:10 131:14 143:8 144:17 149:15 166:9 167:14 169:5 173:4,6 184:8 ,22 186:15 190:13 200:1 212:11 213:15 217:12 219:6 225:7 227:10 238:3 ,16 245:3 252:6 280:1 ,5 287:8 ,21 294:17 295:22 296:13 302:19,21 313:12 **first-** 35:12 **fit** 41:20 113:12,13 168:10 247:9 266:18 284:11 **fitted** 113:9 **fittings** 149:19 **five** 94:6 235:18 **fix** 231:10 **fixed** 86:16 87:4,5 122:2 **flag** 10:16,19 48:19 **flat** 293:19 **flattening** 113:8 **flatter** 317:13 **flexibility** 40:15 41:1 282:10 **flipped** 248:12 **floor** 100:18 131:12 131:14 141:5 ,6 177:13 180:8 209:21 **floors** 141:9 151:20 153:9 167:7 **flow** 101:10 128:2 129:9 151:3 169:3 170:8 183:5 190:6 202:19 275:10 **flue** 152:10 293:10 **flues** 144:13 ,18 **fluid** 65:10 **focus** 16:2 52:12 78:11 92:9 184:6 193:3 202:14 264:4 **focused** 54:1 55:19 56:16 **FOIA** 72:3 **folks** 26:14 27:16 29:5 ,17 84:2 315:19 **follow** 84:17 85:22 89:9 123:12 125:16 127:8 209:10 216:16 219:22 250:10 254:4 258:2 259:14 275:10 285:6,11 313:4 **follow-up** 62:22 86:6 99:12 145:14 197:1 256:11 **follow-ups** 91:22 **followed** 157:17 **following** 8:14 24:10 47:5 178:13 194:14 **follows** 128:9 290:10 **fond** 118:9 **footage** 141:16 **force** 27:20 49:21 81:7 **forced** 24:13 149:21 157:3 **forecast** 114:8

121:10 196:13 228:5 229:2 249:7 **forecasting** 226:20 **foregoing** 95:16 179:13 **foreign** 18:10 **forget** 43:20 299:11 **forgive** 91:5 **forgot** 131:7 176:22 267:20 **form** 181:10 272:7 **format** 179:11 271:11 **former** 5:22 51:1 **Forrestal** 5:9 180:4 **forth** 283:21 **forthcoming** 17:10 **forward** 22:14 25:17 31:6 36:15 37:8 43:6 51:10 227:3 229:10 256:14 262:8 **Foster** 4:9 **found** 12:11 26:18 30:20,21 93:7 124:3 126:16 156:20 192:22 283:17 **foundation** 284:15 **foundational** 25:14 74:1 **four** 64:15 238:6 **Fourth** 34:5 **fraction** 95:10 131:9,12 145:5 148:9 149:8,9 150:11 151:6 161:10,13 163:19 163:22 165:15 ,18 166:13 ,14,16 170:3 175:14 176:11 187:4 190:19 246:8 ,13 247:12 258:15 303:7 ,19 **fractional** 122:21 **fractions** 132:14 144:4 152:1 ,2 155:21 160:17 161:14 164:7 165:6,8 166:10,17 182:13 ,14,19,21 191:20 237:17 304:19 **frame** 10:14 **framing** 97:20

**Francine** 2:8 7:10 **Franco** 2:17 7:16,16 90:9 101:3 ,4,5 105:11 ,12 107:13 113:11 114:22 115:1 117:16 118:16,17 ,22 121:13 ,14 123:6 124:1 125:4,4,12 126:2,14 127:11 130:13 131:5 ,21 132:14 134:7 ,8,17 134:20 135:7 ,15 135:19 136:3 ,14 137:1 138:8 139:20 144:16,21 146:7 ,7 147:4,20 148:2,21 150:4 152:18 155:17 156:22 160:14 161:9 162:11 ,21 163:12 165:3 168:13 ,19 170:12 174:11 175:11 176:2,9,20 177:15 181:4,7 ,8,19,22 183:14 187:17 189:11 ,20 190:2 190:11 191:18 192:1 194:8 ,19 195:14,22 197:13 198:4 199:3 ,8 202:8,13 203:3 ,14 203:20 204:2,13 204:20 205:2,7 ,14 206:2,11 ,14,17 208:15 209:6,12 210:6,12,16 211:1 211:22 214:3 ,3 ,9 214:21 215:13 216:2,22 217:17 218:2 219:6,14 224:19,21 225:3 226:14 229:16 230:17 ,20 231:6 232:7 ,10,13 233:10 234:2,9,20 236:8 237:5 238:8 240:5 241:8 ,12 242:21 243:16 244:9,16 247:10 247:21 248:17 249:10 250:6,14 252:7 253:5 255:10 256:6The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 334 257:4,18 258:13 258:21 259:3 ,8,20 262:14 263:4,22 264:11 266:21 267:5 ,11 ,19 268:20 271:8 272:8 273:2,15 274:5 ,20 276:19 277:10,20 278:3 283:4 285:18 286:11 289:9,17 291:15 292:14 294:2 295:2,20 296:4,20 298:15 300:6,15 301:18 302:22 304:5 305:22 309:12 310:21 311:13 312:10,19 313:9 314:22 316:12 **frank** 3:5 ,21 5:19 27:8 28:13 43:9 43:10 45:21 57:13 57:14 64:18 ,19 66:22 87:7 95:18 95:19 97:7 ,13 118:7 ,8 119:13 ,14 125:14,15 135:16 162:15 ,16 164:10 170:6,7 172:5 ,6 189:2,3 193:22 194:1 ,8 201:20,21 212:9 213:9 219:20,21 221:1 233:13 ,14 246:21 247:1 252:3 ,13 254:3 ,4 282:12 298:9 312:13 313:4 **Frank's** 83:9 127:8 259:14 **free** 53:3 71:5 99:12 172:10 **freeze** 162:6 169:8 170:18 ,22 171:5 **freezing** 169:18 271:2 **frequencies** 230:9 **frequency** 234:17 **frequent** 158:18 236:5 **Friday** 1:12 **friends** 145:18 261:14 **front** 197:4,10 **frustrated** 208:11 **frustrating** 207:2

**fuel** 11:19 14:22 15:9 18:17 19:13 23:5 24:13 32:8,9 32:12,15 ,15 42:11 42:22 56:13 121:10 159:6 184:9,12 185:8 188:15 192:5 ,18 198:7 ,10 199:15 210:2 211:9 212:21 220:9 223:20 245:1 257:6 266:13 268:14 269:9 273:14 274:21 ,22 286:4 293:3 296:16 300:21 302:14 303:6 304:2,3 310:2,14 **full** 25:13 ,15 27:2 41:2 142:12 195:15 234:1 252:9 308:4 **full-on** 98:10 **fully** 77:12 104:3 105:15 161:1 188:9 219:6 295:18 **fundamental** 170:13 213:22 **fundamentally** 218:14,19 **funded** 37:22 **funding** 50:17 ,18 51:1 **furnace** 11:6,9 18:16,22 19:1 ,3 ,5 19:13 23:14 29:7 31:21 35:22 36:1 44:14 49:21 51:3 53:7 54:21 ,22 60:5 ,7 ,10,12 61:18 64:4 69:5 ,6 69:16 76:6,13 ,14 76:19 79:7 ,10,11 80:9 85:15 ,17 87:15 90:20 95:11 96:4,5 ,10,13 ,16 96:18 ,19,21 ,22 99:22 100:3 103:11 ,11 106:3 ,3 106:21 107:10 108:18 115:16 120:3 ,3 124:7 ,10 125:13 126:4,18 127:4,5 ,15 129:4

129:10,12,19,21 130:1 ,19 131:11 131:13 133:3 ,5 ,16 134:13 ,16 136:17 139:9,10,11 140:3 140:3 141:10,19 141:22 142:5 ,8,9 143:17 ,18,20 144:3 145:6 146:11 ,12,12 147:10,14 149:2,3 149:16 150:15 ,18 150:18 151:1 ,8 153:14 156:3 ,13 163:8 167:17 168:2 169:9 170:20 171:14,15 172:1 174:6 177:12 182:10,11 183:15 184:22 185:1 ,6,6,14,19 186:15 189:8 190:7 ,10 191:4 192:17 193:14,18 193:19 195:19 196:2 197:7 198:12 199:10,20 200:4,17 ,20,21 201:7 ,13 202:3 ,22 203:1 ,3 ,8,17 207:1 ,8,10,10 208:4,12,20 209:3 210:7 213:4 214:22 216:5 ,10 220:6,20 230:6,9 230:16,21 231:3 ,9 233:20,22 234:7 ,8 235:13 236:10 239:19 241:22 244:17 252:22 254:22 255:21 264:19 270:18 271:18 272:5 ,6,16 272:18 273:1 ,4 275:13 ,14,19 279:14 280:3 286:19 289:20 290:1 ,20,22 291:4 291:6,11 ,13 296:5 296:14 298:17 ,19 299:3 ,22 300:12 301:5 302:4,9 303:9 305:2 306:22 307:13 312:2,18 **furnaces** 1:3 5:8

12:13 14:20 15:4 15:8 18:14,19 20:4,19 23:13 31:19,22 32:2 33:14,15 ,16,17 ,18 33:19 35:2 37:20 44:4,12 45:20,22 46:9,11 ,14,16,17 46:20,21 ,21 47:1 47:3 ,4,4,13 ,14 48:1 ,4 49:6 50:1 ,3 50:4,8,9 51:20 53:11 ,14,15 ,16 59:4,5 64:7 68:12 68:15 ,16,17 ,19,19 69:8,9 70:2,2 76:22 77:22 79:8 79:15 90:18 93:4 96:1 97:2 107:18 107:22 109:14,16 115:22 116:1 127:3 ,12,13 ,14,16 131:9 140:13 143:11 148:6,16 148:16 149:11 150:13 154:19 156:20 157:3 ,9 168:22 172:17 173:8 181:15 184:4 186:10,12 186:16 187:5 188:4,7 189:14,15 189:16,16 190:1 191:9,16 193:15 193:16 197:9 205:10,10 210:20 211:8 228:1 230:14 231:7 238:20 239:3 ,16 246:8 248:16 249:22 250:4 252:8 253:14 254:17 ,20 261:20 264:17 265:18 274:18 278:13 287:8,9 290:12 306:20 312:11 ,11 312:20 **further** 46:1 50:16 70:10 82:3 89:12 90:3 99:6 105:3 121:14 128:7 173:9 175:16 181:22 183:20 187:1 ,9,21 195:10 202:9 253:18

268:11 289:4 **future** 174:21 191:17 211:3 226:2 248:18 251:12,14 255:5 255:19 **G G**  5:1 **gain** 236:18 282:19 **gains** 172:22 **gallon** 288:18 ,19 **gallons** 289:1 ,1 297:19 **game** 163:17 228:9 **garage** 129:18 130:7 131:15 160:19 **garage--** 164:8 **Gary** 221:9 **gas** 3:3 ,19 4:7 5:18 6:6,9,14,19 7:1 12:12 13:21 14:8 14:9,10,14,16 15:4 16:6,9 17:21 18:3 ,5 ,6 19:1 ,15 20:1 ,7 ,8,18 24:14 27:16,17 ,19,21 28:1 29:2,7 ,22 30:3 34:12 46:20 46:20 47:1 ,3 ,13 47:13 49:6 50:7 53:10,15 ,16 54:21 54:21 55:9 62:21 64:4,7 68:12,15 68:16,17 ,19,19 69:6,7 ,9 70:2,2 87:15 106:2,3 ,17 109:14 115:22 127:12,13 ,14,16 133:5 143:13 ,20 144:11 145:18 148:6 158:5 159:6 164:9 167:17 168:1 ,5 169:9 181:14 183:15 184:4 185:9,10,14 185:19 187:5 189:13 ,15 209:3 211:8 223:20 225:15 234:7 ,8 239:16,18 249:21 264:16 265:6 270:6 271:18 ,18 272:5 ,6,21 275:7The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 335 275:12,19 278:13 279:14 280:3 ,13 288:2,4,8,16,18 289:1 290:14 292:5 293:14 296:5 298:7 ,17 ,19 299:3 ,11 ,22 301:2 301:7 302:5 ,10 303:9 317:1 **gasses** 152:10 **gassing** 139:15 **gathers** 123:8 ,9 **GC** 41:13 119:5 **gee** 87:17 175:6 **general** 5:17 7:5 ,10 7:12,14 8:14 115:21 117:3 ,11 117:14,19 118:1 ,6 118:9,21 122:13 210:5 281:21 287:19 **generally** 37:6 52:19 66:2,8 69:1 70:4 71:17 72:2 107:18 217:4 274:15 **generate** 104:4 **generation** 307:22 **gentleman's** 138:16 **Geo-thermal** 297:8 **George** 242:2 **Georgia** 136:5 **getting** 44:21 76:22 87:14 164:20 221:18 ,19 223:7 ,7 225:17 237:16 253:2 313:11 **Gibbons** 162:5 **give** 9:22 26:14 59:1 87:17 92:12 128:21 161:9 176:2 188:11 192:18 203:17 224:3 239:5 ,21 276:8 284:20 299:2,3 ,4,10,11 299:22 **given** 21:12 41:16 56:7 74:3 215:20 298:20 **gives** 93:20 102:3 129:13 186:1 235:11 ,17 239:2 284:18 286:18 **giving** 173:10 **glad** 5:9 9:20 **glean** 41:14,18

**go** 8:12 10:15 11:12 11:12 12:2,6 13:17 31:9,12 42:3 ,3 45:12 48:20 49:16 50:13 51:7 52:2,6,13 53:2 63:20 67:6,7 74:14,20 75:2 76:19 84:22,22 85:1 88:14 92:3 ,6 92:17 94:10 97:7 100:5 ,17 ,18 101:12 103:6 104:9,12 105:8 106:15 108:6,7 114:21 117:17 123:15 127:21 ,22 128:18 130:14 132:3 ,10,11 ,14,21 136:11 139:22 140:11 141:1 ,12 141:17 143:2,5 147:20 150:3 ,12 150:14 151:12,15 151:18 ,21 152:8 152:20,22 153:8 153:18 155:17 ,21 156:1 ,4 157:15 159:10,13 160:15 165:12 166:8 168:19 172:11 176:8 181:12 186:3 188:13 189:4 193:1 195:5 206:6 211:17 214:14 216:12 217:8 218:18 229:17 233:2 242:9,10 243:21 244:6 249:1 ,17 250:14 262:15 264:5 265:1 ,2 267:13 268:8 269:1 270:20 275:21 276:21 277:10,11 ,12,20 279:14 281:11 282:4,17 ,18 283:9 286:14 287:7 288:19 289:12 290:8 291:16 293:7 297:19 301:4,7 ,8,9 302:11 306:13 ,18 306:19 307:4,5 ,7 313:7 316:14

317:21 318:3 **goals** 12:18 **goes** 44:20 52:19 83:9 99:22 106:11 153:4 191:6 198:4 215:21 282:6 290:10 296:8 **going** 5:4,12 9:16 10:16 11:4,12 12:2,4 27:20 31:18 ,18 33:16 42:8,14 44:13 45:3 48:15 ,17 ,19 52:6,21 54:10,11 60:17 ,22 62:14 64:20 65:3 66:3 66:12 70:15 73:14 73:18 ,18 75:4 81:21 83:3 ,4 86:20 89:11 90:1 90:3 ,13 92:18 93:17 94:13 ,18 96:20 99:20 100:4 100:17 101:1 ,2 104:13 106:16,22 107:4,18 118:2,11 121:2,5 ,8,14 125:7 ,20 126:5 138:18 ,19 139:19 141:20 143:22 146:9 149:14,22 150:2,6,8 152:6 152:10 155:3 157:12 160:9 162:17 163:3 166:12 167:7 168:18 170:18 174:9 175:12 176:21 179:16,18 179:18 ,19,19,21 180:1 ,2 181:3 ,19 182:10 183:1 184:6,11 187:18 190:17 192:3 194:6 197:7 ,8 200:18 201:12,16 201:22,22 206:20 212:11 215:20 218:12 219:15 ,17 219:22 220:19 221:16 223:19 225:2 226:11 232:18 ,19 234:21 235:16 236:13 238:15 244:1 245:1 248:22

249:18 254:3 ,8,13 254:20 255:1 ,4 256:18 262:13 264:9,12,14,16 265:5 267:21 268:4 272:18 273:20 274:21 277:9 281:4,7 ,7 286:9 288:15 295:18 296:22 297:15 ,19 298:19 299:1 ,21 300:2 301:2,4,5 ,7 ,8,9,14 301:15 303:9 304:14 306:9,12 307:4,5 ,5 ,8 308:7 309:10,19 314:5 319:2,10 **good** 5:4 11:20 19:21 26:16 28:1 28:2,12,14 29:21 32:17 48:14 49:3 52:4 79:14 89:7 95:17 101:4 104:7 105:7 ,9 111:20 146:18 152:4 156:8 158:21 178:4 179:15 190:11 208:7 225:6 255:16 260:18 284:4,21 285:3 294:6 296:17 310:15 316:11 319:15 **Goodman** 3:16,22 127:7 224:16 250:9 **goodwill** 29:17 **gotten** 138:16 217:3 **government** 26:4 222:17 226:21 **grab** 33:21 284:5 **granularity** 158:15 316:4,10 **graphical** 271:10 **graphically** 268:10 **gravity** 156:20 157:3 ,9,9,10 **great** 10:11 11:21 37:5 ,5 41:9,22 82:5 138:8 175:8 219:14 251:6 253:6 261:22 299:13 319:14 **greater** 39:5 215:1 279:18 280:10 283:13 292:1 **greatest** 142:13 303:3 **green** 128:13 **Greg** 7:18 **Gregory** 4:13 **GRI** 157:20 **ground** 17:4 53:2 98:3 100:18 143:2 154:20 180:7 297:6 **group** 4:11 6:10 26:14 38:7 39:17 58:12 72:18 109:12 146:17 241:6,9,10,13 ,14 243:7 253:3 **groups** 26:2,3 39:12 312:4 **growing** 242:18 **growth** 186:18 256:7 ,8 **GTA** 238:2 **GTI** 3:4 6:5 16:9,22 17:16 22:17 24:9 33:5 144:6 145:9 152:12 217:9 289:13 **guess** 71:22 81:1 96:8,17 107:18 108:3 ,19 126:8 162:17 163:6,11 173:12 176:17 179:4 194:13 207:1 213:1 222:12 228:6 269:11 282:14 289:14 293:16 297:17 305:9 313:7 **guessing** 173:9 **guide** 159:5 **guy** 71:10 73:13 119:9 244:6 **guys** 59:22 139:13 147:12 205:9 264:9 **H Haddock**  210:18 219:10 **half** 76:10 134:13 145:10 209:8 ,12 272:17 **hall** 100:17 180:7The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 336 **hand** 13:12 74:16 84:19 188:14 **handle** 158:15 187:13 **handled** 210:19 **handler** 265:2 **hands** 284:1 **happen** 44:20 151:4 171:11 303:18 **happened** 114:19 **happening** 89:19 94:22 111:22 123:19 208:10 217:2 **happens** 117:17 149:6 159:10 216:4 **happy** 12:11 ,17 75:3 87:17 99:11 229:11 **hard** 13:9 39:13 50:15 124:7 144:19 165:1 183:12 293:17 313:18 **hard-off** 40:5 **hard-to-vent** 34:12 **hardest** 38:11 49:20 319:17 **HARDI** 3:11 116:21 123:9 **Hariharan** 2:9 7:12 7:12 **Harvey** 3:18 6:21 81:5 ,6 86:4,5 87:1 88:3 113:18 ,19 130:10 157:4,15 171:9,10 175:4,6 228:2,3 229:6 260:20,21 274:13 274:14 294:16 297:7 301:20 **Harvey's** 97:19 **hat** 110:15 **hatched** 227:10 **hate** 160:2 **Haydock** 198:22 **hazard** 158:18 **head** 91:10 109:21 218:13 282:15 **health** 201:15 **hear** 9:17 13:14 52:11 75:22 84:22 88:1 101:3 173:3 **heard** 38:3 45:4 47:6 65:16 73:17 145:15 262:7

**hearing** 42:8 217:15 238:4 282:11 **heat** 31:19 32:1 42:16 43:3 67:9 67:11 70:6,7 ,9 78:14 82:11 ,19 133:16 169:16 173:21 176:22 192:19 193:11 ,11 193:12 199:2,5 ,9 199:13 ,14 200:8 202:2,2,6 215:22 216:19 224:11 264:19 265:2 267:3 270:19 272:7 275:14 280:14,15 286:19 290:12 291:5 ,6,12 291:13 ,18 293:12 293:12 294:21 ,22 295:3 297:6,8,19 298:3 ,7 ,8 299:4 299:12,22 300:8 303:8 306:8 ,9,11 **heated** 299:12 **heater** 19:2,9,9 27:22 86:14 140:15 145:6 149:16 156:15 ,17 157:18 158:5 159:16 160:1 166:8 ,20 167:5 ,21 167:22 168:5 265:5 ,6,7 270:22 271:18 272:14,15 272:17 ,22 288:16 288:19,20,22 289:19,21 290:15 290:16 297:20 301:6,8,9,10,16 302:5 303:9,10 **heaters** 156:10 158:16 166:17 266:1 ,2,2 288:1 ,2 288:2,4,5 ,9 293:13 297:12,16 **heating** 5:20 6:1 24:15 47:20 50:2 50:13 51:6,7 ,18 79:18 95:21 96:10 158:22 159:8 184:18 185:1 ,2 192:15 193:2,7 ,16 196:14,15 197:18 197:19 202:20 203:2,4,10,21

204:1 ,2,9,10 209:5 214:8 218:17 264:20,21 265:3 ,18,19,20,22 270:7 271:14 279:2 289:16 291:8 297:13 299:15 301:11 ,13 310:6,18 **heavy-duty** 48:16 **height** 141:6 153:9 **heights** 141:6 150:2 **help** 22:17 27:10 49:18 57:11 71:12 98:2 147:12 250:15 260:13 291:17 **helped** 10:14 20:14 29:5 34:13 227:16 **helpful** 72:5 78:10 98:19 139:18 165:7 258:12 **HH** 130:11 ,14 131:16 **Hi** 255:12 **higer-efficiency** 103:16 **high** 28:17 35:2,6 80:10 85:8 106:12 114:9 137:8 138:12 141:8 172:16 201:1 204:15 ,16,18 205:4 209:4 210:1 222:3 232:18 243:8 244:3 248:14 249:22 261:20 290:20 295:8 298:2 299:2 310:20 **high-efficiency** 115:4 **higher** 23:8,12 24:18 ,18 30:11 50:6 58:2 60:20 62:2 106:12 111:12 112:11 114:11 124:6,7 136:8 164:1 176:13 203:5 205:9 215:21 216:8 218:12 219:12,15 ,18 220:15 ,20 242:6 245:11 278:11 279:9,14,17

282:17 290:9 291:7 298:8 312:17 **higher-efficiency** 106:1 **highest** 241:6,9,14 **highlight** 14:5 **highlighted** 34:13 **highlights** 45:11 **highly** 21:14 74:22 **hire** 22:17 **historical** 106:6,7 186:19 190:8 ,14 190:15 192:9 245:14,17 247:5 250:20 **historically** 250:10 317:12 **history** 8:16 9:22 30:1 41:16 46:7 **hit** 48:11 67:2 88:4 **Hodges** 2:18 6:8,8 17:20,20 **hold** 87:22 148:1 206:20 **holding** 26:15 206:21 **hole** 151:17 152:8 154:1 ,10 284:13 **holes** 151:20 154:2 **home** 46:16,20 47:13 50:16 53:15 54:21 64:8,13 68:12,15 ,17 ,19 69:5 ,8 70:2 80:19 106:3 116:1 ,1 ,2 117:5 ,5 119:6,7 127:14 151:4 167:15 183:2,15 183:19 185:11 ,11 185:14 188:7 190:9 218:17 222:21 234:22 236:14,18,20 237:1 255:1 257:2 257:16 276:2 278:4 299:15 300:19,22 307:14 314:12 316:3 ,17 **homeowner** 137:4 196:1 231:19 275:16,18 **homeowner's** 99:21 **homes** 12:13 50:4 90:7 96:5 119:8 138:17 144:19

156:21 176:7 184:5 185:13 ,13 185:22 187:22 188:2 190:20 194:15 ,18 257:2 301:1 306:21 314:10 317:22 **homework** 183:2 **honestly** 282:8 **hookup** 133:6 **hope** 8:9 25:11 27:1 27:7 ,9 29:3 ,8 41:17 48:4 81:12 315:18 **hopeful** 17:14 **hopefully** 8:18 17:10 48:17 79:4 137:19 181:11 277:22 279:21 306:16 308:16 312:14 315:15 318:20 **horizontal** 141:14 142:14,15 ,15 ,16 142:17 ,20,22 154:18 155:4 **horizontally** 141:18 143:3 151:9,21 153:11 274:19 **hour** 53:12 55:20 135:22 136:1 ,13 179:22 **hours** 63:20 88:20 88:21 89:2,16 134:5 ,10,15 ,21 136:12 192:7 ,14 204:12 207:12 211:5 ,6,7 212:5 216:7 219:2 223:22 231:11 **house** 44:13 141:11 152:15 ,17 ,19,19 158:12 170:10 171:2 172:8 182:9 182:12 218:15 220:7 244:14 256:15 269:17 270:19 300:2 305:14,17 ,18,19 310:17 ,18 **household** 50:12 96:9 103:11 ,11 122:8 128:4,4,5 ,6 128:8,22 129:11 129:14,15 ,16,22The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 337 130:15 131:10 143:19,19 150:21 152:21 153:2,3 ,5 153:6 161:20,20 169:4,6 171:3 176:9 184:17 ,19 185:1 ,3 ,4,12 186:14 189:8 191:2,4 192:9,12 193:15 194:6 197:19 225:12 243:9,16 275:1 ,3 275:3 294:3 ,3 305:6,7 ,7 ,7 306:4 306:5 ,7 ,12 **households** 23:7 ,16 38:19 39:2,9 40:5 40:7 41:5 103:17 131:9 138:6 143:9 151:7 162:1 ,2 167:3 185:13 ,17 185:19 187:4 189:7 193:14 194:4 201:1 230:21 243:7 ,18 271:16 273:18 275:4,9 304:22 315:8 **houses** 171:16,16 172:3 193:20 274:8 **housing** 234:7 238:19,19 239:1 276:5 291:2 **HPBA** 2:16 **HSPF** 42:20 295:9 **HUD** 239:1 **huge** 44:15 138:21 245:2 254:9 **humor** 228:20 **hundred** 38:20 39:3 125:3 **Hunt** 4:10 6:19,19 144:9,10,11 ,18 145:18 ,22 181:17 181:21 ,21 **hurt** 49:16 50:12 **HVAC** 117:2 119:9 278:12 **hypothesis** 160:5

**I ICF**  3:10 **idea** 56:2 58:19 80:19 119:20 269:8 **identified** 212:14

**identify** 29:18 315:18 **IEC** 91:18 **ignore** 111:15 120:12 221:17 **ignoring** 222:7 ,8 **Illinois** 49:9 50:20 **imagine** 98:3 155:2 **immediate** 5:14 **immediately** 5:13 8:14 255:17 **immense** 21:12 **impact** 18:16 24:21 31:20 32:4,5 ,6 42:12 49:20 51:11 65:14 133:18 162:8 165:17 166:16,18,19 178:10 179:6 208:1 214:17 217:21 229:3 252:1 261:22 314:13 ,15 316:1 **impacted** 148:10,12 150:11 165:18 166:11 ,13 175:14 261:21 303:12 304:9,10,13 ,20,21 305:1 ,8,15 314:10 316:22 **impacts** 22:22 24:8 24:10 31:8,14,16 33:8 121:8 165:15 166:22 168:22 266:9 293:15 **Impetuousness** 157:6 **implement** 94:1 **implemented** 60:14 60:18 **implications** 25:15 145:16 147:1 **implied** 176:18 **implies** 256:17 257:16 **imply** 108:13 257:13 **important** 9:21 12:1 12:10 17:3 36:16 60:3 ,4 78:15 84:9 91:22 103:8 114:1 129:7 140:20 145:3 ,12 159:1 178:3 ,17 ,21 184:13 185:15 190:12 192:5

193:4 199:21 216:4 301:21 308:22 314:9 **impose** 20:22 23:1 ,3 **impossible** 22:2 138:6 158:3 255:20 273:13 **improved** 223:8 303:4 **improvement** 194:17 **improvements** 194:7 **improves** 65:16 **improving** 147:7 **in-standards** 41:10 **inability** 272:4 306:20 **incentive** 44:21 248:15 249:1 255:14 **incentives** 119:18 249:21 251:11 ,14 251:21 252:1 **inch** 218:19 **include** 14:14 18:1 102:15 104:19 105:2 114:7 115:20 116:16 131:6 140:8 144:20 162:8 167:19 200:4,6,8 222:22 233:22 239:16 269:12 288:9 301:16 318:21 **included** 25:8 32:12 69:17 129:1 133:12 134:6 182:18 ,20 217:14 233:12 239:15 273:14 **includes** 30:3 32:4 104:16 115:22 116:5 126:4 127:21 133:2,3 134:16 139:14 234:2 **including** 11:19 14:3 15:7 32:9 104:22 139:10 169:20 197:22 198:15 223:3 230:10 256:2 270:4 **income** 23:11 ,21

49:15 50:13 240:21 241:6,9,10 241:10,13 ,14 243:7 311:16,17 312:4 316:3 **incomes** 276:6 **incomplete** 43:4 265:14 266:7 ,14 **inconsistencies** 256:4 **inconsistent** 25:4 **incorporate** 99:1 114:3 199:13 233:8 **incorporated** 79:19 103:2 114:6 132:20 **incorrect** 254:7 **incorrectly** 154:10 **increase** 10:4 23:17 29:14 34:4 49:10 56:13 121:20,21 178:12 220:12 226:12 282:19 283:2 305:5 **increased** 33:8 43:3 67:12,13 68:3 81:10 84:1 103:15 122:3 147:8 214:12 236:10 253:20 298:3 ,4 **increases** 23:18,22 50:15 67:11 178:8 250:21 285:15 **increasing** 53:20 70:7 ,9 **increment** 125:11 **incremental** 33:19 58:6 67:17 69:1 77:15 102:4 111:4 121:15 ,20 122:4,4 125:7 126:1 ,5 ,6 126:11 152:16 **incrementals** 102:12,19 **incur** 171:6 267:3 **Independence** 1:7 **independent** 16:6 **Index** 113:21 **indicate** 64:20 **indicated** 21:3 233:7 307:21 316:20 **indicates** 20:22 **individual** 66:14,15 67:19 98:6 108:9 123:11 128:22 150:20 151:4 152:15 ,17 ,19 153:5 161:19 167:3 168:8 186:12 190:9 242:8 257:2 **individually** 67:16 128:9 **indoor** 130:7 131:6 131:14 156:2 157:11 163:8 ,15 163:22 164:2,16 165:16,17 **indoors** 131:7 ,11 163:1 **inducer** 82:12,13 200:5 **industry** 18:1 ,12 19:14,16 27:16,19 29:2 34:13 42:11 44:16,20 54:12 66:16,19 67:4,21 69:6 88:11 99:9 157:17 178:15 260:11 **industry-accepted** 24:19 **inefficient** 267:2 **inertia** 32:20 33:1 **inflate** 25:1 229:2 **inflation** 226:12 **influence** 259:18 **influenced** 255:15 **information** 8:10 16:1 20:21 21:20 22:6,9,12,15 54:6 66:20 69:19,20 71:17 72:2 74:4,7 78:11 80:18 81:10 81:11 83:20 89:15 97:21 98:5 ,10,13 99:2 116:3 ,11 ,17 123:9,10 130:3 ,5 178:3 195:15 231:20 233:5 247:12 251:19 273:11 286:22 316:5 ,6 319:15 **informed** 54:18 **informing** 15:17 **Ingersoll** 4:3 5:21 59:3 88:15 99:15 134:4 202:17 **inherent** 229:9The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 338 **inherently** 257:10 **initial** 23:12 24:9 46:7 ,10 **initially** 69:18 **inject** 228:20 **input** 16:16 53:11 55:19,21 71:15 134:8 192:7 ,8,10 192:13 216:5 ,13 216:18 ,21 217:4 237:2,6 248:4 **inputs** 54:9 101:12 102:14,20,22 103:22 104:4,5 ,11 104:13 ,21 127:21 188:20,21 238:15 286:16 292:18 315:13 **inputted** 172:21 **inquiries** 21:10 **inside** 269:17 **install** 48:1 99:22 138:3 ,7 ,11 154:1 155:8 173:20 187:14 272:5 ,7 273:13 275:5 302:3 305:2 306:10,10,20,22 307:16 **installation** 11:19 25:4 34:5 38:13 38:15 62:13 101:20 104:17 123:22 127:2,19 128:3 ,8,10,12,13 128:14,17 ,22 129:8 130:17 132:1 ,5 ,17 ,21 ,22 133:1 ,10,13 134:1 134:6 136:22 138:3 ,10 139:9,22 140:1 141:15 143:7 145:17 ,19 147:6 150:13 151:2,22 152:20 152:21 153:2,13 153:22 155:1 ,15 160:18 161:11 162:19 164:16,20 164:21 167:1 ,12 167:18 168:4,21 171:8 173:19 174:12 177:14,21 178:4,11 ,15 ,16 179:4 181:5 ,14 182:3 ,18 183:5 188:1 233:20

273:16 275:5 280:4 286:20 288:11 299:3 309:7 **installations** 34:15 96:9 130:18 131:2 131:3 133:7 141:14 143:17 144:5 145:10,11 149:1 152:2 155:20 156:2,11 161:10,14,15 ,18 165:15 166:10 172:22 175:22 298:13 ,13 **installed** 50:10 61:4 61:20 62:17 63:19 64:10 97:1 ,3 101:22 102:18 ,21 104:15 136:17 139:4 143:11 ,18 149:4 153:11 156:3 163:1 ,8 178:6,9 202:4 238:20 239:5 280:2,6 302:4 312:18 **installers** 39:11 **installing** 120:4,8 120:14 127:4 140:14 167:14 172:16 182:10 **installs** 148:8 **instance** 253:11 274:2 307:10,13 **instances** 146:6 307:1 **instantaneous** 266:2 **instinct** 158:17 **Institute** 3:15 5:20 6:7 ,18 16:6 42:7 91:3 175:20 194:13 208:19 223:18 226:8 248:8 265:10 297:5 **insurance** 139:16 **integrity** 78:21 **intellectual** 72:15 **intelligence** 137:19 237:3 **intended** 23:22 112:3 ,4 **intensely** 37:22 38:5 **intent** 283:7

**intercepts** 205:12 **interest** 183:1 186:4 228:21 281:8 **interested** 15:14 38:16 39:4,6,22 40:10 150:7 174:8 186:11 **interesting** 37:17 40:21 134:22 233:1 242:1 **interject** 258:2 **intermediate** 55:6 67:5 ,15 ,18 98:4 **international** 3:10 160:5 **interplay** 60:4 **interpret** 108:19 **interpreter** 72:20 **intersection** 81:9 **interviews** 57:9 66:21 69:21 116:4 123:2 246:5 **introduce** 8:3 **introduced** 254:15 **introduction** 128:3 274:16 **introductions** 5:13 8:1 ,6 **introductory** 9:16 **intuitive** 291:9 **investment** 261:7 **investments** 20:9,14 **involved** 17:4 43:13 139:16 297:7 318:1 **irrelevant** 282:14 **issuance** 17:2 **issue** 15:12 16:3 33:20 38:10 42:11 45:13 60:4 73:22 81:18 90:11 97:20 157:18 171:1 ,3 186:5 201:15 207:19 227:4 **issued** 17:6,6 27:18 157:20 227:11 **issues** 11:16,18,19 12:1 16:8 40:1 41:14,17 42:10 45:11 48:12 85:8 86:20 87:8 88:8 95:14 146:19 155:10 226:13 ,16 270:4 302:21 311:10 **item** 217:11

**items** 30:21 ,22 31:5 **iteration** 308:4,6 **J J**  3:6,15 **Jacobs** 2:19 **James** 4:3 **January** 42:18 **Jeff** 2:21 **Jerome** 172:15 **Jim** 5:21 59:2,3 72:17 74:16 84:19 84:22 88:14,15 99:14,15 134:3 ,4 134:15 148:4,5 159:2 202:16 211:15 222:11 ,12 230:12,13 236:4,4 236:4 **job** 10:11 11:21 26:12 35:19 48:14 **Johanna** 2:9 7:12 **John** 2:3 ,18 6:8 7:8 9:17 17:19,20 20:5 45:8,9 48:21 60:5 ,22 61:10 105:5 ,11 107:15 109:13 ,18 119:4 121:7 124:22 155:13 161:3 162:5 173:2 175:7 178:19 179:3 ,4 182:22 183:9 196:12 215:5 219:8 220:1 226:18 235:19,20 240:2 246:21 260:1 269:5 273:10 284:14 308:3 309:12 **join** 13:15 45:5 73:19,21 113:4 **joined** 48:22 171:20 **joining** 45:3 79:4 112:21 113:6 120:17 199:1 201:9 243:20 249:17 **joint** 28:7 **jointly** 28:18 **Jonathan** 3:11 **July** 46:6 **jump** 55:10 **June** 46:19 **justified** 24:4 43:19 48:9 74:3

**justifies** 31:9 **K Kalisch**  227:9 **Karen** 3:12 6:3 64:5 64:18 74:18 ,20,21 77:18 88:1 ,2 **Karen's** 80:19 **Katheryn** 40:6 **Kathryn** 4:7 7:1 19:20,21 73:19 78:19 97:16 **keen** 38:7 41:2 **keep** 44:18 52:12 66:12 73:18 83:2 83:4 120:1 168:18 174:7 208:14 254:3 262:13 263:19 264:9 309:8 318:8 **keeping** 261:5 **kept** 302:9 **Kern** 2:20 **key** 10:13 12:5 16:3 33:20 53:7 56:8 61:13 81:2 83:10 86:15 93:7 105:9 132:2,13 310:1 **keys** 132:9 **Kido** 2:7 **kilowatt** 207:12 219:2 223:22 **Kimberly** 112:20,22 113:4 120:16,17 120:21 **kind** 8:13 27:8 29:3 65:3 85:6 92:8 97:5 99:4 100:4,8 100:9,10 119:6 124:13 128:11 134:10 137:3 139:3 ,12 152:22 153:7 155:5 158:15 163:21 165:12 173:7 181:12 182:3 ,6 183:2 184:2 186:22 187:10 189:18 190:18 194:13 198:19,19 200:13 205:22 209:1 210:4 211:13 212:3 216:14 220:3 235:14,17 243:13The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 339 248:8 ,13 250:2 252:9 259:13 261:16 264:6 274:6 277:17 282:6 286:14 289:21 293:17 307:15 ,16 310:20 315:1 316:18 **kinds** 39:12 **kitchen** 307:5 **Kleiss** 2:21 **knew** 220:18 **knobs** 317:4,5 ,15 **know** 11:2 12:3 ,8,8 12:20 13:5 26:1 27:5 30:11 39:18 39:22 48:12 51:11 56:15 58:7 ,16 59:13 62:15 63:22 66:2,22 71:3 ,22 72:10,17 75:17 ,18 77:9 78:17 80:19 81:22 82:10,12,18 83:18 ,18 85:9 88:8 89:4 91:6,9 94:21 95:3 99:16 109:2,15 ,17 ,21 141:16 145:3 146:20 147:13 ,16 149:3 ,14 162:6 171:18 173:7 ,8 174:1 ,19 175:17 183:13 194:4 205:12 207:2,5 ,5 207:6,11 ,16,18,21 208:1 ,6,7 ,9,12 209:20 210:1 ,2 211:18 213:10 216:16 218:5 222:6,14 224:5 ,10 224:12,12 225:6 226:19,21 227:4,5 227:7 ,17 ,22 228:12,13 ,14,14 228:15 ,22,22 229:13 231:13 232:21 242:9,10 242:10,17 ,17 ,20 244:3 248:9,11 252:20 258:7 ,8 260:4,6 261:14,17 261:19 262:3 ,5 270:12,19,21 ,22 279:15 280:16,21 280:22 281:2,5 ,6 281:9,10,13 ,15 282:2,3 286:11

290:3 293:2,6,8 293:10,11 ,13 ,14 293:16,17 ,18,19 293:22 297:18 298:22 310:13 ,13 310:17 311:5 313:11 315:18 317:11 ,20 319:15 **knowledge** 196:2 233:17 **known** 148:16 **knows** 28:6 **Krebs** 4:11 6:10,10 58:12,12,14,19 71:6 72:3 ,7 ,16 73:15 74:16 75:11 84:18 90:6 109:12 109:12 110:7 138:13 ,15 146:16 146:16 147:11 148:1 179:14 183:9,9 206:18 ,19 226:16 227:4 228:11 ,19 241:19 243:13 ,19 260:5 261:10,13 262:10 270:14,15 280:20 281:15 282:2,9 292:21 ,21 294:18 311:22 312:1 **Kristjansson** 2:22 **L labeled**  204:16 **labor** 122:3 133:7 135:18 231:11 **Laboratory** 2:17 7:17 ,19 101:6 **lack** 15:7 21:5 40:15 **Laclede** 4:11 6:10 58:12 70:16 72:18 73:22 99:3 109:12 138:16 146:17 292:22 **Laclede's** 242:15 **LAHI** 50:17 ,18,22 51:8 **laid** 208:10 **language** 281:17 **Lapato** 3:3 **large** 18:2 29:6 38:2 40:7 49:22 56:2 61:5 157:11 164:18 167:6 198:20 249:20 252:8 273:17 ,19

273:20 316:6,21 **largely** 65:22 **larger** 61:17 62:2 82:2,12,14,17 ,18 82:19 149:8 157:12 166:1 ,3 246:8 288:17 **lasts** 153:19 **latest** 143:13 225:21 245:21 247:17 287:1 **Lau** 7:9,9 **launch** 43:8 **law** 27:3 **Lawrence** 2:17 7:16 7:18 101:5 **laws** 273:20 **lay** 208:2 **LBNL** 4:13 90:8 227:12 **LCC** 83:1 89:13 ,22 101:10 102:1 ,15 103:2,7 ,8 104:8 104:21 105:2 132:2,4 184:5 214:10 215:13 ,14 217:12,14 218:6 219:4 243:3 244:22 245:1 256:15 257:11 ,14 263:6 268:1 285:11 303:12 304:7 ,16 305:4 311:14,20 **LCC's** 285:7 **lead** 35:13 90:9 **leading** 160:5 **leads** 194:20 294:20 **league** 281:2 **learning** 33:10,12 33:13 ,15 ,20,22 34:3 ,16 107:16,21 108:2,12,21 109:5 109:6,14 110:3 ,4 110:10 111:3 ,4,7 111:11 ,12 112:15 112:19 113:16 114:3 ,7 ,13 160:3 232:16 **leave** 13:11 87:20 97:17 263:17 **leaves** 70:14 **left** 5:14 46:22 66:3 101:1 **legal** 41:7 ,13 ,20 **length** 140:21 141:1 141:4,18 142:7 ,10 142:13 165:20,21 166:2 **Leslie** 3:4 6:6,6 81:1 106:16,17 108:6,7 109:1 152:12,12 217:9,9,18 218:3 238:2,2 257:21 258:3 ,18 259:2,4 289:13 ,13 304:1 305:9 313:11 315:17 **less-** 51:4 **less-efficient** 24:14 **less-energy-efficie ...**  51:19 **let's** 12:19 13:16 43:14 45:7 ,16 52:1 ,12,12 57:19 72:16,19 75:22 88:1 94:5 100:13 100:14 111:15 ,15 115:1 120:17 127:17 ,19 132:21 139:20,22 143:5 150:12 166:8 168:19 177:6,8 193:1 ,7 200:1 238:16 254:13 ,14 254:18 263:1 271:6 299:11 319:6 **level** 26:20 30:11 42:20 43:16 53:22 54:20 56:4 60:20 62:7 67:15 ,18 68:21 69:4,16 84:1 93:16,17 ,18 94:11 ,14 98:4 99:7 105:20 106:20 108:20 110:22 111:10,13 121:11 ,19 122:5 126:4 154:20,21 212:16 232:2,2 243:4 245:10,12 246:12 248:20 276:18 291:20 306:15 307:2 310:16 **levels** 54:1 ,11 ,17 55:3 ,5 ,6,7 ,8,12,18 56:7 ,10,17 60:21 67:5 69:2 93:2 107:5 108:1 ,8,9 108:11 ,14 133:2

133:14,20 190:16 190:19 191:8 212:13 ,14 213:2,8 213:14 214:8 216:6 219:13 245:7 ,20 247:16 248:20 264:14 290:8,9 310:2,20 **life** 103:13 178:8 229:14 260:22 **life-cycle** 9:3 16:12 23:16,18,22 25:4 88:22 101:2,7 102:20 103:4,12 177:18 ,22 178:1 ,6 178:18 179:6 181:4 214:6,19 220:5 ,17 277:15 281:1 ,12 296:17 312:16 **lifetime** 24:17 102:15 ,18,19 104:22 230:8 233:21 ,21 238:16 238:17 239:22 240:6,9,14 252:8 289:19 305:3 **lifetimes** 238:17 287:3 289:16 **light** 22:8 **likelihood** 163:11 164:19 191:7 **limit** 225:4 **limited** 233:17 266:3 **line** 168:8 171:5 196:7 255:4 272:3 319:3 **linear** 93:14 **liner** 168:11 **lines** 150:2 162:10 **lining** 140:8 **list** 241:20 263:13 270:16 **listed** 54:6 60:15 122:15 135:18 ,19 193:4 204:14,15 300:11 **listening** 72:18 **listings** 247:8 ,19 **lists** 209:16 **literally** 63:16 72:12 **literature** 110:17 129:5 230:10 **litigation** 26:11The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 340 28:11 ,21 **little** 9:22,22 40:2 47:6 58:7 62:8 65:10 68:1 73:19 82:5 85:4 89:12 89:21 96:17 101:13 103:6 106:19 117:14,16 119:15 ,16 124:5 126:18 129:8 138:10 139:22 140:21 143:5 147:21 149:1 153:18 160:2 170:8 181:10,11 184:1 ,13 186:1 ,3 187:21 199:4 206:4 207:11 ,14 211:12 217:10 220:16 255:7 276:6 277:11 283:12 286:14 288:17 306:1 314:7 **live** 135:8 170:15 ,15 171:11 **living** 156:4 170:16 307:8 **load** 192:15 193:2 193:16 209:5 ,8 214:8 216:16,17 216:17 ,19,21 310:6,18 **loads** 291:8 **locate** 71:12 **located** 14:18 121:2 121:5 122:9 129:12,20 130:2 163:4 165:16 169:6,7 171:4 **location** 128:5 129:10 131:15 132:2,5 ,17 141:21 151:2 160:18 163:8 ,15 169:7 ,14 **location's** 141:15 **Locationally** 316:3 **locations** 158:22 161:12 165:16,17 170:5 314:12 **Lochinvar** 2:21 **log** 57:3 **logic** 178:14 240:4 251:18 267:18 285:11 302:15 **long** 27:13 36:21 37:6 139:2 198:19 220:19 **longer** 80:13 113:15 204:12 207:3 214:22 223:4 **longest** 302:16,19 **look** 8:13 25:17 26:14 32:6 33:15 36:15 43:5 46:6 55:22 56:11 58:3 68:13 86:1 88:16 88:22 91:10,16 92:4,11 110:1 120:7 126:21 128:11 132:10 137:2,6 145:1 159:7 ,8 160:2 166:9 178:6 183:3 205:11 ,15 211:2 212:19 223:2 227:18 229:10,12 231:21 232:20 236:16 242:3 243:10 248:11 257:3 266:8 292:7 303:17 ,20 308:8 310:2 311:7 ,14 312:22 313:5 ,8 315:7 **looked** 31:21 55:5 56:21 57:20 58:1 66:2 68:3 77:10 107:17 148:18 173:2 202:22 212:15 ,17 238:10 238:11 242:17 **looking** 5:13 37:8 39:7 40:14 43:18 43:22 44:19 53:8 53:10 57:18 68:2 68:5 ,14,20 77:15 80:19 89:1 96:9 98:9 99:16 103:10 124:21 125:5 134:5 139:11 144:12 174:2,17 175:7 177:22 208:19 215:9 220:3 222:13 223:18 228:21 248:9 249:12,14 254:18 261:17 265:13 ,14 277:7 283:15 291:4 292:22 293:1 297:9 306:15 **looks** 31:13 38:20

157:6 173:19,20 190:7 234:16 252:18 277:18 **lookup** 191:6 **lose** 285:14 **losses** 253:18 **lost** 80:1 95:2 172:22 **lot** 11:10 27:14,16 28:5 37:2,9 43:13 48:6,15 ,16 52:9 53:2 58:15 64:2,4 64:7 71:16 72:14 84:10 86:20 88:17 89:2,22 95:1 100:6,7 111:11 127:21 131:22 136:20 141:3 144:13 ,18 146:22 147:1 150:19 152:7 158:11 159:3 ,5 163:22 173:15 ,16,18 182:16 185:16 200:22 204:11 ,11 204:11 ,11 ,11 ,12 218:18 224:5 247:13 248:12 251:13 253:14 259:16 265:20 266:6 271:22 293:5 297:17 301:13 312:22 316:5 318:3 319:15 **lots** 11:15 ,15 39:9 **loud** 8:2 **love** 37:16 41:6 265:10 311:7 **low** 79:10 139:17 149:17 166:11 204:6,7 ,9,15 ,17 205:4 209:7 ,8 210:1 241:9 243:7 274:16 280:12 302:5 311:15 ,17 312:3 317:7 ,8 **low-** 23:10,20 49:14 50:10 **low-balled** 139:3 **low-income** 14:22 23:19 49:20,22 50:16 51:4 **low-loss** 93:16,19 99:18 **lower** 21:2 35:11 ,14

50:7 108:20 109:7 112:9 137:9 164:7 165:22 176:12 202:12 204:11 ,12 234:7 239:21 248:21 251:5 269:16,21 291:10 291:11 304:11 307:2 **lowest** 241:10 302:19 **lunch** 9:6 174:10 179:22 180:9 **M M**  2:12,19 **magnitude** 195:11 214:16 **main** 71:15 102:20 102:22 181:16 182:3 ,17 188:21 193:11 199:17 200:2 234:4 235:4 248:18 **maintain** 216:20 235:12,12,16 **maintenance** 85:7 102:10 104:20 177:4,5 230:5 233:15 ,16 234:17 235:1 236:1 237:9 244:2,5 ,7 286:21 295:7 **Maisano** 3:5 **major** 24:6 55:8 57:22 67:3 167:15 229:3 ,7 244:21 262:14 288:10 292:18 301:10 **majority** 23:7 97:3 **making** 32:20 58:8 75:6 166:21 194:16 222:22 272:13 **man** 134:5 **man-hours** 58:20 **manner** 84:13 **manufactured** 46:14 77:11 185:13 234:7 **manufacturer** 31:8 31:20 32:5 53:19 54:2,12 56:7 57:9 57:22 58:2 62:12 66:18,21 67:3 ,16 67:20 68:20 69:11

69:12,13 ,21 75:4 75:16,19 76:4,15 77:6 92:21 101:17 105:15 ,17 ,19 115:16 116:4,7 ,17 117:5 119:20 120:4 122:10 129:5 230:10 246:5 248:4 252:22 287:10,16 287:16 288:6 **manufacturer's** 63:4,6 99:17 115:3 239:7 ,8 **manufacturer-spe ...**  67:17 **manufacturers** 18:4 31:10,16,21 ,22 32:1 33:9 34:9 39:10 48:3 56:5 56:12,21 57:10 58:8 65:18 67:8 68:18 72:14 77:2 79:13 86:7 98:8 99:7 112:8 115:8 115:15 116:1 121:17 125:22 173:15 246:5 253:4 260:2,11 ,17 **manufacturing** 31:14 47:22 48:2 57:4 59:21 63:12 63:16,17 70:1 71:17 80:15 **map** 105:9,9 224:6 **mapping** 132:12 **maps** 196:9 **March** 1:12 5:8 29:11 **margin** 115:13 **marginal** 218:16 225:15 227:5 ,5 ,6 227:7 ,10,12 229:1 229:20 233:3 ,6,8 314:15 **mark** 4:11 6:10 47:19 58:11 ,12 70:16 73:16,21 74:14 75:13 79:4 79:4,16 84:16 85:4,22 90:5 109:11 ,12 115:11 127:2 138:13 139:5 ,6,18 146:15 146:16 156:18The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 341 177:11 179:13 183:8 ,9 201:9,10 206:18 226:15 227:3 228:3 241:18 243:20,21 244:8 249:16,17 261:10 270:14 272:2 280:19 281:14 292:21 294:17 306:17 311:22 312:6 319:10 **market** 18:16 24:21 24:22 34:10 35:1 35:12 43:2 44:12 54:9,19 55:7 66:11 ,22 68:2 77:22 80:4,5 ,7 95:3 107:7 ,21 108:18 111:14 112:4,5 113:14 114:19 116:11 119:19 121:3 ,4 123:20,20 124:8 124:18 ,18 125:11 138:2 181:5 186:18 210:8 245:6,13 246:7 248:14,14 249:9 249:11 ,13 251:22 251:22 252:9 253:22 254:17 255:15 274:17 288:3 293:20 295:5 315:2 **market-** 66:17 **market-share-wei ...**  67:3 68:9 **marketers** 18:18 **marketing** 18:3 **marketplace** 14:20 19:11 **markets** 42:15 113:17 182:5 246:2 248:5 **marks** 117:22 **markup** 69:13 70:1 116:13 ,14,17 ,20 121:14 122:20 123:4 125:1 126:1 126:11 127:9,18 287:14,19 **markups** 63:2 69:17 69:18 101:18 105:15 ,20 115:2,2 115:5 121:15 ,16 121:16,19,20

122:4,6,10,12,16 125:21 **Marshall** 4:10 6:19 144:9,10 145:14 181:21 **masonry** 19:2 143:8 143:14 144:5 158:9 **Massachusetts** 302:1 **match** 132:1 186:19 276:22 277:3 **matched** 56:12 **matches** 126:17 136:19 279:3 **matching** 231:22 277:2 **material** 26:19 154:9 240:4 263:20 317:14 319:16 **materials** 33:5 57:4 57:6,6 75:6 139:15 225:2 **math** 124:22 218:13 **matrix** 272:13 **matter** 8:3 138:4 177:9 307:15 313:16 315:21 **matters** 295:11 310:4 **mature** 106:21 107:6,8,10 108:14 **maturity** 81:4 **max** 212:4 **max-tech** 55:3 56:19 62:4,8 67:21 68:1 ,6 **maximum** 149:18 150:2 209:5 **McCabe** 3:6 214:4 214:5 ,5 ,18 215:10 215:15 **McCarter** 3:13 **McClive** 3:7 **McCrudden** 3:8 117:9,9 131:18 ,18 132:7 145:13 ,20 146:2 174:22 277:13 ,13 278:2 **MCGRUDDEN** 173:1 ,14 176:16 **McLean** 3:9 6:15 ,15 **mean** 27:15 58:1 63:11 65:5 77:4 78:15 86:18 100:6

110:13 118:11 ,12 119:15 120:11 143:6 157:2 174:15 191:5 192:16 213:20 214:21 216:18 219:1 ,3 225:11 260:4 261:10 266:22 272:20 281:5 ,16 282:13 283:20 285:16 304:22 308:7 **meaning** 130:12 280:9 285:9 290:21 **meaningful** 17:12 17:14 25:16 74:11 147:19 **meaningfully** 15:16 **means** 51:7 53:22 99:10 129:1 132:6 136:13 ,21 146:21 154:4 180:3 182:1 189:10,13 199:19 200:12 230:10 277:21 285:8,12 285:13 287:12,15 **meant** 155:5 181:11 181:12 **measurement** 83:21 **measuring** 83:18 **mechanical** 115:17 116:8 ,21 117:11 117:13 118:3 ,6 119:9 122:12 197:4 312:9 **mechanisms** 40:16 **Medepalli** 3:10 **median** 198:16 219:2 **meet** 60:14 253:15 269:20 **meeting** 1:1 2:1 5:7 8:12,16 10:4,7 ,9,9 11:13 13:4 39:18 52:20 180:9 319:4 319:18 **meetings** 11:15 13:10 27:14 **meets** 22:3 **Melchi** 3:11 **member** 20:5 ,10 21:21 **members** 14:10,17 18:1 ,10 20:14 37:15 43:17

137:17 175:9 **membership** 18:8 **memory** 241:6 **mentally** 218:17 **mention** 44:5 131:8 259:21 **mentioned** 38:8 40:6 45:21 46:7 47:10 54:16 56:15 67:1 70:4 82:6 85:15 119:17 145:14 146:4 151:8 213:16 227:15 233:4 249:3 253:6 269:6 270:6 273:16 296:6,21 **merit** 40:22 **mess** 146:17 **message** 178:14 **met** 11:14 **metal** 140:10 **method** 86:9 104:6 123:16 184:2 238:18 **methodologies** 21:8 21:15 ,17 25:14 **methodology** 82:22 95:14 109:19 110:6 140:22 169:4 192:6 237:12 266:20 **methods** 86:14 104:8 **metric** 20:16 **Meyers** 3:12 6:3 ,3 64:5 ,7 ,15 74:21 74:21 77:20 88:2 88:2 **MHGF** 187:14,14 **MIA** 9:7 **mic** 8:6 58:13 63:14 **Michael** 2:7 3:6,14 168:8,9 214:4,5 215:6 **microphone** 13:18 62:19 **microphones** 5:15 **mid-morning** 9:1 **midday** 9:6 **middle** 98:3 139:12 142:6 242:19 **migration** 196:16 196:18 **Mike** 8:2 59:10,11 62:11 63:2,10 72:4 78:7 ,9 79:22 98:18 **Miller** 3:13 5:17 ,17 307:19,20,20 308:15 ,15 312:3 **million** 20:15 50:21 50:22 185:22 193:17 ,18 216:11 223:20 254:16,19 301:1 **mind** 44:18 120:1 266:13 297:22 314:20 318:8 **mindful** 162:8 **minds** 29:5 **mine** 83:8 258:3 **minimal** 291:12 **minimis** 65:14 **minimum** 49:5 55:1 76:18 80:5 ,8 221:5 245:10 318:9 **miniscule** 94:20 **Minnesota** 79:20 100:5 139:8 177:12 **minority-owned** 49:11 **minus** 92:10,10 94:5 ,8,16 **minutes** 100:14,20 174:10 180:2 **misprint** 118:17 263:15 **missed** 76:8 **missing** 300:21 301:4,11 **misspoke** 259:10 **misunderstood** 285:20 **mitigate** 39:5 **mix** 80:5 161:12 **mixed** 285:16,17 **mixing** 197:4 **mixture** 137:8 **mobile** 46:15 ,20 47:13 53:15 54:21 68:12,15 ,17 ,18 69:5 ,8 70:2 106:3 115:22 116:1 ,1 117:5 127:13 183:15 ,19 184:5 185:11 ,13 ,14 187:22 188:2,7 **mode** 13:8 46:6 47:2The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 342 85:4 90:16,17 ,17 90:21 93:1 ,7 ,17 93:21 95:9,15 ,15 96:14,18,19 97:4 97:5 99:16 199:18 199:19,22 200:2 **model** 9:5 16:14 32:16,17 ,21 58:2 99:9 110:13 ,16,21 128:3 172:21 188:21 192:10 219:4 267:6 268:1 296:1 302:15 **modeled** 267:21 **modeling** 21:14 309:21 **models** 11:22 55:20 57:20 68:13 ,22 71:11 103:21 **moderate-income** 50:11 **moderately** 40:7 **Moderator** 2:10 **modes** 203:7 **modification** 140:9 239:13 **modifications** 140:7 **modify** 248:2 **modulating** 68:4 212:4 **modulation** 70:10 **moment** 38:8 45:6 113:4 **Monday** 319:9 **monetary** 220:13 **money** 40:11 49:18 100:10 265:21 269:10 285:10,14 307:15 **Monte** 103:22 **month** 225:13 **monthly** 51:18 220:8 **Moore** 72:17 74:16 84:19 85:2 236:4 236:4 **more-efficient** 121:21 **morning** 5:4,10,12 19:21 49:3 52:4 **motion** 160:16 **motor** 11:8 77:9,13 79:9 86:2 93:9 99:4 125:18 ,19,20 126:1 127:14 203:1 210:7 ,10,10 231:18 234:12,12

236:5 ,7 249:15 **motors** 71:1 77:11 77:12 85:7 ,11 ,14 127:10 224:18 231:15 ,17 236:6 **mount** 140:9 **mouth** 157:13 **move** 51:10 90:14 115:1 127:17 ,19 158:6 177:6 183:1 183:14 225:2 236:6 309:2 311:21 **moved** 22:14 **moves** 31:6 115:8 171:21 **moving** 8:21 53:17 60:2 168:20 174:8 177:9 183:21 184:1 224:21 229:15 244:20 250:4 262:12 302:12 **MPC** 66:14 67:4 68:10 81:16 **MSP** 105:22 121:19 121:21 122:1 ,5 125:1 **multi-family** 149:22 196:4 274:6 **multi-level** 172:8 **multi-stage** 212:4 **multi-story** 150:1 ,3 **multiple** 26:17 56:5 131:9 151:16 153:1 167:7 186:16 193:15 ,20 195:19 196:3 197:6 201:13 ,14 238:12 240:18 244:18 273:20 274:9 **multiplied** 189:6 192:7 **multiply** 102:8 193:10,20 287:13 **multiplying** 105:14 118:5 **mundane** 228:18 **municipal** 14:14 162:9 **Murphy** 62:21 ,21 123:14,14 124:14 125:9 137:14,14 177:17 179:3 ,3 233:2 236:13

251:17 ,17 273:10 273:22 274:1 292:10,11 ,11 **mute** 13:11 **N N**  5:1 181:1 ,1 ,1 **N.J** 263:5 **Nadel's** 222:3 **NAECA** 44:10 45:21 46:8 47:14 **NAHB** 2:15 244:13 **name** 5:11 ,15 8:2,5 13:3 ,19 19:21 49:7 61:15 62:20 78:3 ,4 101:5 123:13 130:21 137:12 168:8 300:17 **narrow** 29:2,19 **nation** 239:3 312:17 **national** 2:17 6:9 7:17 ,19 14:7 17:21 ,22 20:17 42:12 50:6 101:6 122:18 132:18 135:1 ,3 ,10 137:5 143:13 159:6 162:1 211:11 212:18 ,22 213:9 213:11 ,18,20 214:2,17 217:21 223:19 224:1 290:8 298:12 300:19,22 316:17 **nationally** 20:7 29:22 50:17 122:15 161:11 **nationwide** 15:3 23:16 **natural** 7:3 14:7 ,16 18:22 19:15 20:7 20:8,18 24:14 27:17 ,19,19 29:7 29:22 30:3 36:20 49:6 50:7 53:10 143:18 ,20 144:2 146:10 149:5 ,10 150:15 157:2,3 ,14 159:4 223:20 225:15 275:7 280:13 288:2,8,16 289:1 292:5 **nature** 39:14 74:4 78:18 **Navigant** 2:13 3:7

3:14 7:9,21 52:5 59:12 62:11 63:3 78:9 136:16 **Nayes** 47:19 79:4,6 79:18 127:2 139:5 139:7 156:18 177:11 201:9,12 201:19 243:20 244:1 249:16,18 250:8 272:3 306:17 ,19 307:12 312:6 **Nayes,yes** 73:16 **NDA** 81:11 **near** 163:5 **necessarily** 64:4 88:10 213:20 218:4 284:4 **necessary** 16:1 51:16 58:20 114:7 130:19 174:16 **need** 9:12 11:10 13:3 17:9 19:3 31:6 37:20 41:22 44:18,22 50:3 52:10 53:4 62:9 66:7 71:21 72:6,7 72:10 75:17 ,18 76:9 82:12 86:1 87:8 112:18 120:1 141:16 142:18 ,20 158:15 ,19 159:9 159:22 160:1 ,7 172:19 173:8 174:21 206:3 ,3 217:6 219:9 232:20 252:14 263:17 283:13 292:2 298:11 ,21 306:13 316:10 **needed** 21:20 23:13 51:2 60:13 ,21 216:20 219:12 259:22 **needs** 25:12,12 33:20 34:16,22 43:1 84:3 ,13 112:13 157:22 168:5 172:18 280:3 289:4 318:8 **negative** 18:15 20:19 23:4 212:2 212:6 296:2,8 315:22 **negatively** 304:9,9 304:20,21 305:1 ,8 314:9,16 315:22 316:22 **negotiated** 40:19 **neighbor** 142:3 **Neil** 3:4 6:6 80:22 106:15 ,17 108:7 110:21 152:11 ,12 217:8,9 238:1 ,2 257:19 258:1 260:5 262:11 289:12,13 303:22 313:10 316:19 **Neil's** 219:22 **neither** 157:7 **net** 23:8,16,18,22 30:1 ,7 ,12,13 ,15 305:19,19 **networks** 64:3 173:16 **neutralizer** 170:2 234:3 **neutralizing** 170:2 **never** 58:22 159:18 174:5 ,6 227:11 **new** 22:4 29:6 34:6 51:3 87:15 ,18 88:18 89:4 95:22 100:4 111:1 115:18 ,19 117:10 136:4 140:10,10 140:14 161:7 167:12,13 ,13 168:12 173:17 ,17 176:7 ,10,11 182:17 ,19 183:21 187:15 194:15 ,18 204:4 220:20 232:1 ,16 236:7 246:4,6,9,11 248:3 267:4 269:21 292:13 ,19 293:2,4,20 294:4 294:9,10,14,19 297:9 299:21 308:4,11 ,16,19 314:10 315:3 ,10 315:14 **newer** 295:1 **newest** 114:17 **newly** 22:12 **NHB** 317:18 ,19 **NIA** 9:6 214:14 215:13 217:12 218:5 222:18 243:2 292:18The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 343 **nice** 5:5 ,10,10 8:8 26:12 35:19 231:12 249:21 302:10 **niche** 114:16 **NOAA** 197:17 **nodding** 260:16 **nominal** 226:10 278:6 279:5 **non-condensing** 14:19 15:8 50:2,3 50:9 55:10 73:4 73:10 76:3 ,13 ,20 126:6 128:17 139:9 140:3 ,3 143:6 146:9,11 ,12 150:15 156:13 166:5 ,6,7 ,9,12,13 167:19 168:4 187:14 190:15 ,22 191:11 202:3 205:10,18 209:2 210:19,22 216:12 219:16,19 247:3 247:13 255:21 258:16 264:15 265:17 267:22,22 268:5 ,5 271:13 272:6 295:13 296:22 318:15 **non-cost-effective** 261:5 **non-disclosure** 81:12 **non-furnace** 200:11 **non-heating** 90:19 95:11 **non-mobile** 185:11 **non-profit** 16:7 **non-weatherized** 15:4 20:18 46:20 46:21 47:3 ,4,13 53:15 54:21 55:9 68:16,19 69:5 ,7 70:1 106:2 115:22 127:12,13 ,15 143:20 148:6 156:13 168:1 169:9 181:14 184:4 190:1 211:8 234:8 271:18 275:12,19 279:14 280:3 296:5 **noon** 9:7 **NOPR** 14:19 15:18 16:2,4,10,13 17:2 17:6,6,8,14 26:17

31:4 34:21 41:15 83:15 87:9 109:16 138:20 212:12 280:21 285:7 309:18 **normalized** 284:19 **north** 135:1 ,1 ,4,8 135:11 ,12,14 143:10 158:6 161:14,17 171:11 189:8 ,15 191:4 211:11 212:15 213:10 246:3 ,9 248:1 ,2,10,20,22 249:20 253:9,11 253:22 263:11 290:7 291:6,13 ,19 291:20 292:3 ,4,9 314:10 **North/South** 318:17 **northern** 36:1 139:8 255:21 295:6 **Norths** 248:3 **northwest** 35:7 292:7 **not-for-profit** 14:11 **note** 24:5 ,10 33:3 60:3 ,4 71:5 103:8 163:13 166:6 188:17 246:9 258:2 304:17 **noted** 15:21 20:5 89:17 150:11 309:5 **notes** 104:12 236:16 **notice** 5:7 20:3 44:4 304:17 308:21 **November** 44:7 46:10,13 ,14 47:15 47:17 **NPGA** 17:21 ,21 18:11 ,12 19:16 **NPV** 30:14 **NRCAN** 4:8 **NRDC** 3:17 38:4 **number** 21:6 28:16 44:11 65:3 124:19 132:3 135:13 136:12 139:11 ,12 141:9 143:9 153:9 161:22 176:6 181:3 185:20 193:21 194:3 ,10 201:1 205:17 ,19 218:3 221:7 223:19 239:2

252:22 254:14,16 254:20 256:18 259:9,9 261:2 263:22 280:17 284:18 300:10 307:21 314:4 **numbers** 10:3 11:11 24:8 25:6,8,9 47:18 59:1 68:10 91:6 92:1 131:19 131:21 132:1 ,11 139:17 148:13 152:13 161:12 206:7 219:4 224:6 231:14,16 236:22 248:9,11 251:5 257:12,12 266:6 271:16 290:19 291:4,10,11 292:1 292:3 ,8 297:10 298:1 311:9 318:3 **nut** 72:13 **O O**  5:1 181:1 ,1 ,1 **o'clock** 183:11 ,12 **object** 74:22 75:5 **objectionable** 23:9 **obscure** 98:6 **obscured** 21:7 **observation** 282:13 **observed** 62:6 67:8 110:4 114:13 **obvious** 212:1 **obviously** 57:20 58:7 66:6 73:22 98:21 101:11 122:7 127:20 137:8 144:2 149:7 150:6 152:1 165:7 165:19 175:15 181:10 185:9,12 186:6 188:10 192:2,5 278:15 294:10 **occupancies** 195:19 195:21 197:6 201:14 **occupying** 244:17 **occur** 17:15 169:5 **occurs** 44:1 202:6 220:4 290:14 **odd** 283:3 **offer** 227:16 **offered** 302:6 314:18

**offering** 12:12 **office** 7:6,11 ,13 ,15 281:21 **official** 280:21 **offset** 20:15 **oh** 189:19 202:11 299:4,10 **oil** 46:21 47:4 265:17 266:1 270:4 **oil-fired** 46:16,16 **okay** 5:3 8:7 9:15 13:19 44:8 45:2,5 45:7 ,9,16 46:7 48:21 52:1 ,12 58:19 61:12 64:17 64:18 72:20 73:13 73:16,18 74:12 75:13 78:1 ,7 79:3 84:16 90:13 91:12 92:15 ,17 97:14 99:13 118:19 120:2,4,8,16,19 121:11 125:16,18 139:5 ,7 ,18,19 146:2,14,15 148:1 157:15 168:17 170:14,16 174:7 174:11 175:10 189:21 191:22 196:21 197:12 198:6 199:7 201:17 202:11 ,11 202:12 204:3 206:20 207:10 209:12 218:3 220:3 224:21 227:14 228:21 229:3 ,15 236:12 241:21 243:13 244:8,8,20 246:16 251:16 252:13 ,16 254:7 ,11 ,12,17 255:2 261:16 263:1 267:10 270:2,14 271:6 273:15 278:2 282:15 ,17 ,20 283:20 284:3 296:12 298:19,21 299:7 ,20 300:1 301:4 307:18 309:8,10 311:12 312:6 314:7 318:22 **old** 86:8,10 88:19

134:16 156:20 191:5 ,16 267:2 272:21 ,22 273:5 299:11 **older** 144:18 209:20 **OMB** 242:11 ,11 **on/off** 211:1 **once** 144:1 211:19 216:7 ,11 218:15 235:15 254:21 290:1 302:8 315:5 **one's** 271:22 **one-on-one** 39:16 **one-quarter** 209:9 **ones** 108:1 164:15 268:22 **ongoing** 36:15 **online** 45:3 64:2 75:6 79:4 112:21 113:6 120:17 123:2 124:3 139:5 156:19 157:8 162:5 199:1 201:10 218:22 234:6 236:4 243:21 249:17 **onwards** 250:12 **opaque** 16:18 21:14 **open** 28:13 149:21 164:13 ,22 183:6 **opening** 8:17 ,19,19 12:19 13:16,22 14:5 17:18 26:9 42:13 45:6 47:6 48:7 ,19 107:19 280:20 **operate** 51:19 **operating** 48:13 88:20 89:16 102:5 102:9,11 ,13 ,18,19 102:21 103:17 104:19 122:1 192:7 ,14 203:7 211:5 ,6,7 212:5 216:7 240:14,14 275:6 296:10 305:3 **operation** 200:11 202:6 304:12 **operational** 285:14 296:13 **opinion** 72:8 88:4 208:13 **opportunity** 8:17 9:9,11 ,14 13:22The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 344 20:2 25:17 29:6 36:14 37:19 38:3 38:14 41:1 42:1 49:4,13 51:15 ,21 104:7 110:14 138:3 147:18 173:12 212:11 **opposed** 33:14 41:11 44:19 163:4 **opposite** 49:19 **optimist** 98:1 **optimized** 80:11 **option** 92:19 264:17 266:4 267:7 268:4 269:12,13 ,15 ,19 270:20 275:13 280:15 295:22 296:1 ,6 297:5 ,8 300:8 302:11 ,15 **options** 24:14 51:5 81:4 93:4 133:15 257:1 264:17 ,18 265:11 ,11 ,16 266:5 268:8 ,18,21 269:8 270:11 271:4,10 275:14 297:1 298:1 300:11 314:11 **order** 56:1 58:5 76:16 93:5 104:14 119:10 206:21 **orders** 59:13 **organization** 8:12 16:7 **organizational** 5:15 49:2 **organizations** 12:17 **original** 85:11 **originally** 85:3 **orphan** 140:15 159:16 166:20 167:21 265:4 **orphaned** 19:8 156:10,14,14 157:18 158:6,16 160:1 166:8 ,17 167:5 168:5 **outcomes** 37:4 **outdoors** 170:17 ,21 **outlet** 169:19 288:12 **outline** 31:5 **outlined** 26:10 53:6 **outlying** 158:4 **output** 192:16,16,17 216:11 ,18,20 288:20

**outset** 8:18 17:19 25:20 52:14 263:2 **outside** 19:4 21:18 163:5 172:11 255:15 274:3 **oval** 131:19 **over-estimated** 31:14 32:14 34:6 34:20 **over-estimates** 24:20 **over-estimating** 24:22 **overall** 101:9 103:7 120:10 122:6,16 122:20 134:20 165:18 166:18 169:3 178:5 211:9 239:20 246:12 303:11 304:15 314:4 **overcome** 23:11 **overestimate** 187:8 317:16 **overestimates** 24:17 **overhangs** 155:10 **overhead** 122:2 136:2 139:16 172:20 **overlaps** 100:8 **overstepping** 318:12 **overturned** 28:11 **overview** 8:22 54:8 181:13 187:11 **overwhelming** 140:22 **owned** 14:12 **owner** 235:11 ,15 **owners** 19:13 167:13 ,13 182:19 222:21 244:18 **P P**  3:4 5:1 **p.m** 180:10 319:19 **Pacific** 6:19 144:11 292:6 **package** 38:21 52:9 **packet** 8:10,13 **page** 227:12 280:20 294:8 ,12,12,13 **pages** 208:12 281:12 **paid** 59:5 220:11 ,20 **pair** 58:3

**pairs** 56:12 57:18 **pan** 169:20 **panel** 288:13 293:6 **papers** 90:8 208:6 227:15 293:21 **parameters** 130:7 184:7 **pardon** 261:10 **part** 38:17 42:18 43:20 55:12 60:3 76:8 86:16 89:8 113:12,13 120:11 122:18 126:4 127:20 128:12 143:4 144:17 ,21 145:4 156:4 169:21 173:6 178:20 187:6 188:19,21 200:4 208:20 217:20 219:7 235:21 238:3 242:18 250:16 255:21 257:22 261:18 ,18 263:14 264:1 272:12 292:20 305:9 319:17 **parte** 11:15 **participants** 13:8 253:1 **participate** 13:13 27:20 36:15 ,16 39:20 **participating** 14:22 15:16 **particular** 21:16 23:19 37:6 38:5 41:4 65:11 106:20 111:9 212:10 238:14 282:21 **particularly** 21:12 25:5 35:11 40:1 123:20 178:16 229:8 256:3 **parties** 15:14 22:11 39:19 40:18,19 43:15 **partly** 240:1 247:21 **partnered** 12:16 **parts** 57:3 74:22 135:5 238:7 **pass** 12:21 115:15 **passed** 112:9 187:18 **patch** 86:10 **patent** 75:7

**path** 37:7 **paths** 41:5 **patient** 259:12 **Paul** 198:22 210:17 219:10 **pause** 45:14 88:5 174:9 177:10 **pay** 49:22 50:13 51:18 59:17 ,19,20 63:9 220:8,19 221:2,6 222:10 244:6 278:11 279:1 ,9,13 282:16 283:1 ,13 284:17 299:21 317:9 **payback** 16:13 32:16 101:9 102:1 102:22 103:3 ,14 181:5 184:5 222:21 ,21 223:3 256:22 257:8 ,9,14 257:15 261:2 275:2,11 ,15 ,17 ,20 276:22 277:8 ,15 277:16,18 279:7 279:11 ,12,16,18 280:8,22 281:5 ,6 282:1 ,8 283:11 285:8,9,12,13 296:2,7 302:16 303:11 ,19 304:2 304:15 305:4 317:16,19,21 **paying** 59:15 120:4 **pays** 120:2 **peak** 252:17 254:9 256:3 **Peeter** 4:4 **peg** 284:12 **penetrate** 274:9 **penetrating** 274:3 **penetration** 153:20 **people** 26:22 32:22 43:13 48:1 ,6 85:2 95:3 105:6 136:7 138:16,22 167:13 167:16 208:10 215:7 221:8 226:8 259:18 267:1 272:18 279:1 283:10 298:6 299:16 302:7 ,11 302:20 304:8 311:15 316:1 317:22 **percent** 94:6 148:9

**percentage** 19:12 96:5 163:1 176:8 196:18 209:21 210:5 224:3 291:3 291:5 293:20 **percentages** 249:19 **percentiles** 241:12 **perfect** 261:9 **perfectly** 152:4 284:19 **perform** 244:7 **performance** 11:8 **period** 22:11 25:10 30:3 ,17 101:10 102:22 103:3 ,15 106:10,10 113:15 181:5 183:7 184:5 200:13 239:18 ,18 250:18 251:10,21 252:2,19,20 255:14,17 256:22 257:8,14,15 262:2 262:2 275:15 277:15 ,16,18 279:3 287:2 302:16 304:2 308:6,20 **periods** 16:13 257:9 **permits** 139:15 **permitting** 17:13 **person** 244:17 **persons** 14:22 **pertaining** 74:5 **PG** 4:10 **phase** 133:12 177:18 **PHCC** 4:5 149:13 197:2 **phone** 45:4 49:1 174:18 **phones** 13:7 **physically** 57:2 **pick** 101:1 108:1 319:10 **picking** 291:6 **picture** 135:16 **piece** 138:4 150:12 178:8 215:8 262:14 311:13 318:5 **piece-milled** 262:5 **pieces** 74:22 **Pinto** 2:8 7:10,10 **pipe** 140:18 144:19 145:15The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 345 **pipes** 156:1 165:14 **piping** 133:6 149:18 169:20 **place** 23:10 39:19 47:1 88:13 95:17 133:4 144:14 171:1 272:5 **places** 44:3 **plan** 168:3 258:19 **play** 11:7 174:3 177:21 292:2 310:8 314:20 **pleasantly** 35:21 **please** 5:3 8:5 10:18 13:2,8,11 19:20 36:19 39:20 45:4 49:1 61:14 62:19 63:10 71:5 73:17 73:19 74:20 78:2 91:5 95:7 99:14 100:15 106:15 117:8 123:12 126:22 127:22 130:21 134:3 137:13 144:22 165:4 175:16 179:1 180:5 190:4 195:16 196:22 216:22 217:5 226:6 230:2 237:20 241:6 257:18 267:7 268:15 269:1 271:9 272:1 273:9 283:17 286:5 289:3 ,10 290:3 297:2 300:17 303:3 306:18 316:15 319:10 **plug** 271:1 **plumber** 135:22 **Plumbing** 6:1 117:2 **plus** 69:13 92:10,10 94:5 ,7 ,16 99:18 159:11 205:17 ,19 230:14 265:2 **point** 10:1 32:8 34:18 43:21 45:14 61:13 65:2 78:6 80:12 81:3 83:7 ,9 88:3 94:4 96:8 100:8 113:22 115:10 116:11 119:15 148:19 149:18 150:8 161:6 168:16 172:7 ,7 174:14

179:4,15 181:20 182:2,17 185:16 201:11 207:2 209:14,19 211:22 221:11 223:1 233:22 253:6 254:7 256:1 ,8 258:6,9 267:15 282:19 293:12 294:8 299:9 319:1 319:12 **pointed** 286:2 **points** 14:6 53:8 153:8 ,16,19 155:14,18 160:17 254:5 255:17 256:3 258:11 267:11 316:6 **polar** 197:22 **policy** 15:15 19:22 317:20 **polite** 260:7 **polypropylene** 34:8 **pool** 184:8 **poor** 172:22 270:17 **population** 196:15 242:18 316:22 **portfolio** 37:10 **portion** 97:18 147:13 **posed** 282:15 **position** 158:8 **positive** 18:20 315:22 **positively** 304:13 305:8 314:9,16 **possibility** 281:10 **possible** 17:10 23:14 37:9 40:13 55:22 98:22 116:4 120:14 151:12 183:5 235:2 261:15 264:3 265:12 281:4 **possibly** 256:19 **post** 308:21 ,22 **post-standard** 35:18 41:11 **potential** 19:7 145:22 264:12 265:4,5 **potentially** 23:4 141:21 150:15 151:7 ,20 152:7 153:3 164:9 167:11 ,14 238:12

264:15 ,22 265:1 268:22 280:13 283:14 288:11 ,12 318:17 **pound** 284:12 **power** 93:1 ,14,17 ,19 93:21 99:16 202:18 ,19 203:3 203:11 205:9 219:10,12,15 232:1 ,9 302:4,9 **powered** 90:20 **powers** 203:19 **PPI** 106:6,7 **practical** 41:8 **practice** 34:17 154:4 222:7 **practices** 123:5 126:12 **pre-fab** 168:12 **preceding** 254:10 **precisely** 29:15 36:3 **precluded** 15:15 **predicted** 114:11 317:13 **predominantly** 14:18 **prefer** 86:7 88:11 **preliminary** 8:15 13:1 14:1 17:13 20:20 22:19 264:2 **prepared** 15:20 43:11 **prescribe** 45:22 **present** 20:2 30:8 30:16 77:17 93:9 179:7 240:15 257:5 269:10 309:13 **presentation** 8:11 10:15 ,17 63:21 315:1 **presented** 23:12 70:18 212:13 213:3 282:16 298:18 303:6 310:9 311:16 **presents** 132:15 271:10,15 286:15 303:10,12 **President** 13:20 227:8 **press** 160:10 309:10 **pressure** 18:20 147:1 ,14 201:1 ,5 203:13 207:19

208:4,5 **pressures** 203:16 **presumably** 302:20 **presuming** 247:18 **pretty** 31:13 48:16 67:2,8 69:21 79:14 101:11 111:20 112:1 148:15 151:5 197:3 ,10,11 198:18 304:20 **previous** 71:4 89:18 239:13 247:2 253:20 256:20 258:22 273:12 287:5 **previously** 22:7 55:2 61:8 161:5 167:17 186:20 289:7 309:5 ,8 311:2 **PRG** 3:5 **price** 53:19 59:5 62:12 63:7 ,17 69:11 ,12 75:20 80:12 81:17 85:6 85:9,10 101:20 102:16 103:16 104:16 105:13 ,16 105:22 106:6,8 107:1 ,2,12 108:8 112:16 113:8 ,21 114:11 115:3 ,11 119:17 120:10 121:17 ,18,22 123:16 127:2 229:20 232:17 269:16,16,22 286:20 312:18 **prices** 54:3 ,13 59:15 59:17 85:13 101:19 102:8 104:20 105:14 112:7 ,10,11 114:8 115:3 ,6 124:3 ,8 124:13 139:4 225:4,5 ,9,12,13 225:22 226:10,10 226:11 ,20,22 229:18 233:3 275:8 292:4 310:10 317:14 **pricing** 64:2,9 70:22 85:4 86:2 99:4 124:16 **primarily** 31:17

55:21 **primary** 61:2,22 80:2 115:13 234:13 264:17 **principal** 8:10 **printed** 181:10 **prior** 17:2 26:7 **priority** 32:11 61:3 246:17 267:17 286:3 **pro-consumer** 24:1 **probability** 104:1 ,5 **probable** 148:12 **probably** 9:3 39:13 91:10 110:9 134:21 148:17 149:17 174:9 189:12 201:10 222:3 ,8,9 232:16 232:17 234:13 252:14 282:14 296:17 301:14 **problem** 36:4 98:3 158:7 ,16 160:1 308:18 **problematic** 318:13 **problems** 15:18 86:9 261:15 **procedure** 65:1 ,4,9 65:13 66:9 83:9 84:3 88:5 ,16,19 88:19 89:4,20 91:17 199:11 201:4 204:4 **procedures** 83:12 83:15 84:12 87:6 88:12 **proceed** 9:5 13:16 17:12 45:7 52:2 52:22 86:8 139:19 139:21 175:10 181:4 271:6 **proceeding** 14:4 15:6,16 16:18 26:12 47:10,11 222:2 **proceedings** 26:5 221:10,11 **process** 17:5 ,14 21:6 26:12 27:13 28:4,20 38:9 39:14 41:11 78:22 81:14 83:10,14 84:4,9,14 86:16 86:18,22 114:2The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 346 123:17 137:16 184:21 245:4 **processes** 57:5 80:11 ,15 114:17 114:18 **produce** 315:5 **Producer** 113:21 **producers** 18:3 **producing** 56:21 80:10 **product** 12:1 15:9 24:17 54:18 60:15 64:21 65:8 67:13 76:3 92:20 94:19 100:2 101:19 103:1 ,13 104:16 105:3 ,13 ,14 106:20,22 107:7 ,8 107:11 109:21 110:2,6 111:9 114:10,12,16 120:9,15 125:20 137:22 159:8 162:20 203:1 217:5 220:11 ,21 232:12 259:17 264:7 266:20 267:2,4 287:6 290:5 299:11 306:6 **production** 54:2 63:17 69:13 75:17 75:20 80:11 105:19 111:5 ,6,8 114:18 287:17 **productive** 39:16 **products** 34:10,10 35:20 44:22 45:19 55:4 56:4,12,21 64:2 65:4 68:2 72:12,14 77:11 78:16 81:14,17 94:9 103:16 106:1 107:5 ,6 109:8 110:19 114:20 115:15 ,16 121:21 159:7 161:13 175:9 224:13 245:7 ,9,11 **profit** 105:21 115:13 116:21 122:2 136:2 **program** 37:3 45:18 50:17 121:4 248:15 ,19 252:21 259:16 **programs** 12:13 ,14

20:9,12 37:12,15 37:19,21 44:21 49:18 **prohibit** 197:4 **prohibited** 281:19 **prohibiting** 18:21 **project** 25:22 26:1 36:13 226:1 ,3 251:11 274:2 **projected** 25:1 35:9 35:15 245:6,13 250:17 317:14 **projecting** 191:20 **projection** 259:9 **projections** 226:21 227:2 251:9 252:11 255:5 **propane** 6:9 17:21 18:1 ,3 ,4,5 ,6,7 ,12 18:18 19:14 **proper** 24:7 88:7 222:17 **properly** 15:9 19:9 173:20 **property** 72:15 150:1 **proposal** 10:4 19:11 19:16 20:17 28:7 28:18 51:11 **proposals** 66:9 137:18 **propose** 179:21 180:2 **proposed** 5:7 18:15 20:3 21:13 22:2 23:3 ,9 24:1 25:16 29:12,20 31:2 40:18 43:16 49:5 49:21 51:3 86:10 96:15 192:19 **proposing** 15:3 **proprietary** 15:10 21:18 78:18 ,22 81:10 97:21 98:10 234:16 **prospective** 103:9 **protecting** 97:20,21 **protection** 75:7 162:7 169:8 **prove** 10:9 **provide** 19:17 21:20 22:6 26:20 34:11 43:5 59:22 74:9 78:15 89:14 126:22 129:11 ,13 137:3 140:22

149:2 150:9 165:4 173:16 184:16,18 192:2 206:5 ,15 212:7 214:22 229:21 230:3 237:20 240:6,7 260:18 267:7 268:15 270:3 271:9 272:1 276:10 283:10,17 283:19 303:16 308:19 **provided** 22:12 69:20 106:14 116:3 124:2 132:16 138:22 167:2 178:1 182:21 186:20 189:18 190:14 193:5 ,12 198:16 239:9,17 ,18 245:15 258:14,16 259:1 260:3 ,15 276:13 278:4 279:7 289:3 304:6 **provides** 103:8 116:15 130:3 ,8 141:7 150:5 185:12 198:21 225:7 238:20 263:9 286:13 **providing** 21:2 34:10 98:4 117:13 173:11 200:14 237:11 **proximity** 19:5 **proxy** 154:21 261:2 261:8 **PSC** 77:9 79:9 85:5 127:10,14 210:7 234:11 236:6,7 **PSCs** 231:14 249:6 249:12 **public** 1:1 2:10 3:3 3:19 5:11 ,18 6:14 10:4 11:20 13:21 14:9,15 ,16 15:2 21:19,22 25:13 26:15 27:14 69:19 71:18 74:6 81:11 97:22 149:20 260:15 **publicly** 71:14 235:2 237:16 239:10 240:15 **publicly-available**

66:20 **publicly-owned** 14:7 ,10 **publish** 235:7 ,8 237:7 ,15 ,17 **published** 26:19 35:4 46:9,12,18 60:7 75:16 227:12 235:9 **publishing** 26:16 **pull** 105:6 168:17 **pulling** 255:13 **pump** 43:3 133:16 169:12,14,16 170:10,22,22 171:12,18,22 172:1 175:20 177:1 233:18 ,21 234:1 ,3 264:19 265:2 275:14 280:14,15 291:5 ,6 291:12,13 ,18 293:13 294:21 ,22 297:19 299:4,12 300:1 ,8 303:8 306:8,9,11 **pumps** 31:19 32:1 42:16 173:22 177:11 200:9 215:22 224:11 286:19 290:12 293:12 295:3 297:6,8 298:3 ,7 ,8 **purchase** 59:5 ,12 75:2 103:15 121:18 ,22 245:9 245:11 298:20 **purchased** 58:17 59:4 191:6 **purchasers** 115:8 **purchasing** 118:2 288:3 **purge** 249:6 **purported** 258:5 **purpose** 8:15 53:18 104:10 181:16 184:2 **purposes** 128:16 **pursuing** 12:18 **push** 51:3 **put** 66:4 85:19 100:10 108:3 110:21 161:7 175:1 197:9 215:1 216:8 217:5 235:4 244:2 255:1

259:16 292:19 298:6 304:2 307:13 ,15 ,16 308:11 ,16 313:14 319:4 **putting** 87:21 100:1 133:4 157:13 **puzzling** 291:3 **PVC** 140:14 149:17 153:21 154:1 ,20 160:16 168:2 188:5 **Q quad**  222:18 **quadrifurated** 207:4 **quads** 30:2,14 **qualify** 107:10 **quality** 173:19 **quarters** 197:5 **question** 10:20 44:10 47:19,22 48:4 52:17 57:15 58:10 61:3 ,8 62:22 70:22 71:7 72:19 74:4 75:11 76:10,11 81:20 85:11 86:3 ,6 87:2 90:2 91:13 92:13 95:22 96:6,8 97:10 106:17 ,19 107:3 ,4,13 ,20 108:5 ,12,19 111:13 ,16,17 112:21 113:6,11 118:13 119:3 ,5 120:5 ,22 123:1 ,6 123:15 124:2 126:7 ,8,9,10,15 127:8 129:12 130:9,17 ,17 131:1 131:16 133:22 134:7 135:4,7 137:15 ,21 138:9 138:16 144:17 145:16 148:6 150:8 154:14,16 156:18 157:1 161:2,5 162:5 ,12 163:13 168:7 173:3 ,6 177:10 187:12 190:12 192:1 194:5 ,9,19 197:21 198:2The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 347 199:1 ,2,8 200:7 200:19 201:8 206:22 209:11 210:18 211:3 ,21 212:12 214:9 215:9 216:4,16 218:21 ,22 219:10 219:14,22 223:1 224:4 234:5 ,20 235:21 236:3 ,4,8 238:3 ,3 ,9 240:1 ,3 242:16 243:21 244:11 246:17 250:10 252:19 253:5 254:7 ,9,10 263:5 267:17 ,17 269:11 272:3 ,8 273:8 ,12 274:1 276:1 277:22 278:10,10 279:15 279:21 282:16,21 283:6,6 284:6,7 285:6 287:13 ,21 287:22 289:14,18 294:20 295:12,17 296:19 299:14 301:21 304:5 ,6 308:2 309:6,7 311:1 312:7 314:2 314:4,8,22 **questions** 10:8,10 10:13 ,14,16,18,22 11:2 14:3 17:1 ,4,7 17:9 21:10 27:1 ,2 27:9 48:18 53:4 61:1 ,8,13 70:16 70:19 71:4,9 72:22 73:1 ,14 81:2 83:3 87:15 88:20 90:11 91:3 104:7 122:19 127:22 133:20 134:1 155:14 161:4 169:1 ,22 172:14 183:20 192:2 194:10 211:13 225:5 ,7 235:22 236:2 246:17 ,18,20 264:1 ,3 ,3 267:20 267:21 268:6 280:17 ,18 286:2,3 286:4 287:6 289:6 289:7 ,9 303:1 308:2 309:3 ,4 310:22 313:14 314:19 316:14

**quick** 57:15 91:3 148:5 197:1 ,21 311:4 **quicker** 184:1 **quickly** 17:8 25:12 42:3 53:3 100:18 130:14 131:22 165:12 186:4 187:18 192:4 204:16 247:11 264:5 266:18 268:8 **quite** 26:18 28:22 39:15 55:16 56:15 56:17 ,18,18 67:2 111:19 148:13 159:21 160:6 190:13 194:9 202:21 247:4 262:15 **quote** 136:17 242:11 ,15 **QYR** 193:5 **R R**  4:5 5:1 181:1 **Rachel** 2:16 **rainy** 5:5 **raise** 13:12 43:21 212:12 255:7 293:16 **raised** 29:2 38:10 40:2,2 169:1 **raises** 75:11 81:1 255:8 **Rand** 4:3 5:21 59:3 88:15 99:15 134:4 202:17 **range** 55:18 67:10 67:14 68:7 70:7 91:8 94:9,11 ,18 114:19 203:12,15 222:4 242:5 270:18 317:11 318:7 **rank** 132:7 **rare** 290:21 **rarity** 97:14 **rate** 30:9 32:15 33:15 ,17 ,18,20 35:5 ,14 53:11 102:15 106:13 111:6 113:16 159:9 231:2,12,14 232:3 ,19 236:11 241:2 242:13

243:17 ,18 250:5 256:17 257:1 ,10 257:13 ,16 312:5 312:21 317:7 ,10 317:11 **rated** 57:21 66:10 **rates** 33:10,12,13 33:22 34:3 104:22 112:15 135:18 136:4 179:15 227:10,13 ,14,19 229:1 ,7 236:7 238:16 240:13 ,13 240:21 241:21 242:3 ,5 ,7 ,12 243:4,8 256:13 ,14 256:20 257:3 ,11 257:17 280:12 **Rathbun** 4:12 **rating** 86:8,10 **ratings** 66:1 92:22 **ratio** 204:6 **rationale** 107:11 255:13 256:2 269:10 302:18 **raw** 235:8 262:1 276:6 **re-ask** 106:16,22 **re-lining** 143:9 **re-raise** 168:18 **reach** 319:2 **react** 218:16 **read** 73:6 81:21 135:21 160:12 181:11 182:14 183:3 229:13 230:2 309:19 **readily** 64:1 **reads** 207:21 **ready** 179:20 **real** 13:15 72:13 ,14 126:12,17 136:16 136:19 226:9 227:18 312:1 **realistic** 36:6 **realize** 261:19 **realized** 261:21 **really** 11:20 16:3 26:20 31:14 32:19 33:12 37:3 38:9 38:16 39:15 42:9 42:13 43:1 44:5 ,9 63:4 65:19 71:7 81:17 87:12,14 89:4,7 92:8 96:1 ,8 98:22 100:8,9

110:15 120:7 138:12,12 146:20 165:4,7 ,10,11 178:17 206:2 207:21 208:21 217:1 223:4 224:13 227:6,12 232:15 237:5 247:11 256:1 260:6,13 265:20 266:7 268:8,8 270:17 272:18 284:7 293:3 308:8 308:12 310:1 ,4 317:21 319:13 ,14 **realm** 260:15 **reason** 80:2 90:18 114:6 151:10 216:14 222:13 234:10,10,13 248:12,13 299:17 **reasonable** 72:8 78:13 98:12 123:18 284:19 **reasonably** 24:3 ,4 59:20 74:6 **reasons** 33:12 255:16 268:2 **rebate** 12:12 **rebates** 138:22 261:20 **Rebecca** 2:20 **rebound** 214:6,10 214:15 215:9 217:11 ,13 ,18,20 221:22 222:15 ,22 223:4 224:4,11 **rebuild** 80:3 **rebuttable** 282:3 **REC** 182:8 **recall** 109:13 124:20 236:14 242:10,11 **recap** 309:3 **receive** 84:21 271:22 **received** 8:9 10:8 12:20 13:17 153:18 154:14 **recessed** 180:9 **recession** 261:22 **recipients** 51:2 **reckoning** 181:3 **recognize** 15:8 38:18 84:20 202:1 252:14

**recognizes** 245:10 **recognizing** 40:6 **recollection** 310:5 **recommendation** 28:8 **recommends** 242:12 **reconciled** 228:6 **reconciliation** 123:18 **reconfigure** 19:7 **reconsideration** 24:7 **reconsidered** 24:3 **reconvene** 180:10 **record** 13:3 14:4 15:17 78:3 207:8 207:8 241:21 **recorded** 8:4 **recover** 103:15 285:10 **RECS** 129:10,11 ,13 130:3 141:7 149:2 184:15 185:11 ,16 185:22 186:6,6 187:4 188:22 189:6 190:7 191:4 193:6 194:2,3 ,5 195:8 196:1 197:19 198:9 220:3 235:11 ,15 237:16 238:19 239:4 263:8 ,9 275:21 277:1 ,2 279:3 **redo** 166:12 **reduce** 34:14 121:5 **reduced** 33:8 50:18 103:16 178:10 220:10 **reduction** 50:22 210:1 ,4 **reference** 86:1 129:4 236:14,17 **references** 91:18 116:15 ,16 225:8 225:17 240:7 ,8,10 **referred** 22:16 48:7 71:11 113:20 274:7 **referring** 157:9 163:14 176:1 219:4 243:1 **refine** 165:6 **reflecting** 114:15The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 348 **reflection** 89:19 114:18 **reflects** 245:6,8 309:1 ,1 **reformatting** 133:11 **refresh** 241:6 **refrigerant** 173:22 **Refrigeration** 5:20 **regard** 71:9 217:1 230:3 250:16 263:5 283:18 **regarding** 70:16 123:16 138:10 **regardless** 96:22 **region** 23:17 122:9 132:18 ,19 145:6 161:11 190:22 191:3 ,21 197:20 225:12 258:17 263:14,15 275:7 276:7 292:8 310:6 **regional** 18:10 40:22 144:8 191:3 213:16 214:1 251:8 318:17 **regions** 144:7 213:18 263:8 291:19 **register** 46:11 95:17 **registered** 280:21 **regular** 295:2 **regularly** 235:13 ,16 **regulatory** 8:16 31:10,12 45:17 242:2 **Rein** 2:18 6:8 **reiterate** 153:8 294:3 312:2 **reiterating** 262:11 **relate** 83:12 121:16 121:20 **related** 11:2 48:1 61:3 ,14 81:2 95:14 106:19 108:11 128:17 147:6 149:21 153:19 154:13 ,17 217:11 235:4 236:1 246:18 257:10 264:1 267:12,17 268:14 273:16 275:12 286:4 287:8 ,22 296:18 301:22 309:7 **relates** 34:19 95:14

124:17 165:13 168:22 200:7 256:13 289:18 312:19 **relating** 130:18 240:4 **relation** 18:14 189:13 258:22 267:19 287:7 **relationship** 28:12 66:17 67:19 220:9 **relative** 108:2,21 111:17 126:1 209:10 210:10 269:12,22 285:15 295:22 296:14 **relatively** 295:8 **release** 79:1 **released** 10:2 **relevance** 284:8 **relevant** 80:13 **reliability** 100:10 **reliance** 15:10 21:13 **relied** 21:17 53:21 54:6 236:20 **relies** 16:13 **relined** 144:3 **relining** 143:13 146:5 ,5 156:11 159:16 167:11 168:11 **relook** 66:7 **rely** 79:2 80:2,13 **relying** 78:22 **remain** 17:7 90:21 268:3 275:18 **remainder** 147:15 **remaining** 289:15 289:19 **remains** 107:8 **remand** 53:13 **remanded** 47:7 ,9 **remarks** 8:17 ,20 9:9 12:8,19 13:16 16:2 45:6 47:7 48:8 73:21 107:19 172:4 269:6 319:13 **remediation** 145:20 **remember** 42:14 114:4 205:16 206:20 217:19 223:2 238:4 **remembering** 157:21

**remind** 43:17 100:14 148:2 **reminder** 283:5 **reminds** 119:22 **remodel** 167:15 **removal** 133:3 ,6 134:12 162:7 169:21 175:13 183:17 187:15 ,20 **remove** 187:13 **removed** 133:10 **removing** 134:11 ,16 **render** 15:18 **renovations** 23:13 **repair** 102:10 104:20 177:4,5 230:4 234:6 266:19 267:2,7 **repairing** 230:5 **repeat** 76:9 131:1 214:18 219:7 272:9 **repeating** 138:19 **rephrase** 65:6 107:19 120:5 296:4 **replace** 197:7 232:6 266:19 270:18 273:6 **replaced** 50:3 144:1 144:2 254:20 273:6 **replacement** 18:21 115:19 122:21 133:4 134:11 135:5 138:2 140:9 140:10,16 143:7 175:21 231:17 ,18 234:1 244:2 246:10 248:10 250:5 264:15 292:13 ,14,19 298:13 314:11 315:3 ,15 **replacements** 36:1 138:17 176:10 182:20 246:3 248:1 249:19 293:1 294:7 297:22 315:10 317:2 318:19 **replaces** 156:12 **replacing** 134:11 140:2 209:20 267:3 272:22 298:17

**report** 116:19,21 118:15 ,20 157:20 160:21 161:1 ,7 165:10 227:11 259:19 **reported** 20:11 154:10 187:4 198:10 276:14 **represent** 55:8 79:17 80:7 130:15 189:14 254:6 278:6 290:3 300:21 **representative** 55:19 56:22 59:18 73:22 82:8,9 315:14 **representatives** 17:16 26:3 **represented** 56:13 **representing** 17:22 93:13 300:19 316:17 **represents** 18:11 132:3 ,12 149:10 169:3 185:21 ,21 241:13 271:19 315:8 **request** 13:17 14:2 22:10 70:11 72:3 74:3 75:10 78:11 **requested** 22:6 32:10 66:6 72:17 **requests** 22:5 **require** 46:4 60:11 87:21 142:13 143:8,13 154:19 156:11 **required** 18:19 46:5 78:12 80:16 133:7 143:16 145:21 153:21 154:2 166:5 169:15 233:19 272:6 **requirement** 85:16 155:1 170:5 213:4 **requirements** 26:13 213:17 253:16 318:14,16,18 **requires** 140:7 274:10 **research** 9:8 12:11 16:8 90:7 **reseller** 59:14 **Reserve** 240:17 **residence** 163:4

**residential** 1:3 18:14,16 20:4 44:4 53:7 118:13 118:15 ,18,20 129:2 185:4,6 294:13 **residents** 49:15 ,22 51:17 **resistance** 51:5 270:22 293:12 **resize** 166:12,20 **resizing** 143:15 156:12 **resolution** 37:9 **resolved** 34:22 **resonates** 63:5 **resort** 208:11 **resource** 8:11 36:20 **Resources** 3:9 6:16 7:3 **respect** 29:20 **respectfully** 22:5 ,10 74:3 **respective** 137:17 **respectively** 47:15 **respond** 131:8 308:6 **responding** 302:2 **response** 137:15 **responses** 278:15 ,16 286:13 **rest** 105:6 135:2,3 135:12,15 161:22 211:11 212:15 ,19 285:7 290:21 291:7 319:8 ,11 **restrooms** 100:16 180:6 **result** 18:20 19:12 22:1 53:13 60:19 81:15 130:8 133:19 211:9 251:15 290:5 **resulting** 50:20 161:15 **results** 33:2 36:9 37:5 66:16 67:15 70:3 93:13 95:15 123:19 124:12 132:16,17 139:1 145:9 161:22 198:7 211:10 233:11 245:22 266:14,15 276:8 279:8 290:6 294:5The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 349 294:7 ,9,14,14 303:5 ,5 ,7 ,15 304:7 306:11 311:16 313:3 315:5 ,7 **resume** 180:3 **retail** 14:11 18:2,17 63:7 64:2 75:20 81:17 114:8 116:5 116:13 123:16 124:3 ,13 **retailer** 63:19 80:17 116:7 **retrofit** 23:14 **retrospectively** 114:10 **return** 197:5 **reveal** 72:2 **reverse** 54:4 55:15 242:7 **review** 8:15 22:14 30:19 43:8 46:4 72:1 241:22 **revise** 307:22 **revised** 47:16 65:1 ,4 308:5 ,6 **Rheem** 2:19 3:12 6:3 74:21 88:2,8 88:10 **RIA** 9:6 **rich** 62:21 112:1 179:3 251:17 273:22 **Rick** 123:14 137:14 177:16 236:12 251:16 292:10,11 **rid** 148:15 **right** 31:5 42:15 44:11 45:16 53:1 58:4 60:2 61:19 65:9 70:15 80:5 90:14,15 97:21 103:3 109:3 112:17 119:7 ,10 124:8 125:5 128:11 135:17 ,21 136:13 152:17 159:21 162:20 164:11 170:8 ,14 175:17 177:8 178:16 179:6,9,10 188:14 194:4 203:13 ,20 209:4 213:15 218:1 222:14 223:2,7 224:9 227:13 ,16 232:17 243:19,21

244:4 249:17 252:18 257:13 277:15 278:5 282:7 284:18 293:2 308:9 314:17 ,21 **right-of-ways** 149:21 **rise** 30:14,15 125:7 274:16 **rising** 255:8 **Rivest** 3:14 8:2 59:10,11 ,11 62:11 62:11 63:11 ,15 64:12 72:4,5 ,10 78:8,9 79:22 80:1 **RIVIST** 78:9 **road** 139:13 **Robin** 3:17 7:3 36:18 ,20 **robust** 238:22 250:3 **roll-up** 36:4 **roof** 153:10 188:3 **room** 1:9 13:12 27:13 28:6 29:18 39:20 40:18 ,19 90:9 151:17 163:2 163:17 175:7 180:5 226:9 227:8 260:2 263:17 265:19,19 307:6 **rooms** 164:16 **Rosalyn** 4:8 **Rosenquist** 4:13 7:18,18 **Rosenstock** 3:15 6:17 ,17 42:5 ,6,6 91:1 ,2,2,12,20,20 92:7 ,7 ,14,14 94:2 94:3 ,3 175:18 ,19 175:19 176:4,5 ,15 194:12,12 195:12 197:21 ,22 208:17 208:18 ,18 209:7 209:18 210:9,14 223:16,17 ,17 226:5 ,7 ,7 227:7 241:4,5 ,5 ,11 248:6,7 ,7 265:8,9 265:9 268:16,16 269:3 ,3 ,14,14 270:9,9 272:10,11 277:6,6 297:3 ,4,4 311:3 ,4 **roughly** 162:2 298:12 301:1

**round** 284:12 **row** 166:20 274:8 **rows** 161:9 **Roy** 3:16,17 7:3 ,3 36:20,20 127:7 ,7 224:16,16,20 249:3 250:9,9 **RS** 129:1 136:13 ,21 230:10 287:12,15 **rule** 9:21 ,21 11:3 ,4 11:6,9,18 15:6 16:18 18:15 20:22 21:9,13 22:3 ,13 23:9,10 25:2,16 27:21 ,22 29:12,20 31:7 39:6 44:1 ,2,6 44:18 ,19 46:9,12 46:18 47:7 ,9,16 49:16,19,21 50:12 55:3 60:5 ,7 ,10,12 60:18 74:2,10 83:10,14 84:5 ,14 85:15 ,17 ,18 86:18 86:22 87:15 88:5 89:14,16,18 96:16 110:1 129:5 200:17 ,21 201:7 203:9 205:11 ,16 206:6 207:1 ,6,8 208:12 210:3 223:3 236:10,11 241:22 296:18 312:2 316:11 317:1 **rulemaking** 5:7 20:3 21:6 22:1 26:8 36:17 38:5 39:14 40:17 52:6 53:6 60:10 86:8 87:22 88:4 90:15 161:8 258:22 284:8 316:8 **rulemakings** 36:5 46:1 110:18 224:10 287:5 **rules** 84:10 109:4 228:9 **ruling** 47:11 172:19 **run** 58:22 88:21 301:15 305:13 **runs** 152:16 **Rusty** 3:22 **Ryan** 172:15 **S S**  2:15 5:1 181:1 ,1 ,1

**Sachs** 3:18 6:21 ,21 81:5 ,6,6 86:5 ,5 87:1 ,12 113:18 ,19 113:19 130:10,10 157:4,5 ,17 159:15 159:19 171:9,10 171:10 175:5 ,6 228:2,3 ,3 ,18 229:5 260:21 ,21 274:13 ,14,14 294:16,17 295:4 301:20,20 **safety** 19:8 158:18 158:20 201:15 **sales** 62:12 63:17 80:20 117:6,7 122:15 **salesperson** 272:20 **sample** 103:17 128:4,5 176:10 182:6,8 184:14 185:2,16 186:3 ,6 186:14 187:7 198:20 271:20 294:4 306:2,3 311:15 315:4,4 **sampled** 185:18 243:9 **sampling** 306:5 **Samuel** 3:7 **Sarah** 3:10 **satisfactorily** 15:13 **save** 20:14 27:17 ,21 31:2 49:18 95:4 99:17 ,19 100:7 269:9 312:8 **saved** 43:22 222:18 **saves** 28:1 29:22 100:7 **saving** 43:18 94:13 94:17 **savings** 21:2 29:6 29:11 ,14 30:2,7 30:12,13 ,14,16,17 30:17 ,18 33:8 37:5 42:2 44:1 ,15 44:19 48:13 94:21 100:9 102:13 178:7 ,10 179:7 ,10 209:21 210:11 221:20 222:14 224:7 ,8 225:14 242:8 256:16 280:10,15 281:1 293:9 296:10,13 296:14,17 303:13

304:16 305:5 **saw** 202:18 **saying** 61:17 87:7 92:19 95:4 108:17 110:5 148:7 159:20 165:1 175:21 189:6,7 205:9 207:12,16 207:17 ,17 208:21 209:2 219:8 224:6 258:7 261:14 270:10 282:1 ,15 284:16 **says** 31:11 83:14 92:3 100:7 113:7 127:2 148:20 172:15 189:22 191:4 196:1 ,7 202:22 205:11 208:20 222:2,3 225:18 248:9 272:3 279:8 284:18 293:1 318:6 **scale** 56:2 80:12 122:3 251:4 **scenario** 36:4,11 ,13 177:14 293:4 **scenarios** 303:16 306:3 **schedule** 26:10 47:11 **scheduled** 100:20 **Schroder** 61:16,16 62:1 **Schroeder** 4:14 6:4 6:4 130:20,22,22 131:2 190:5 ,5 191:14,22 234:14 234:15 ,15 255:9 255:12,12 256:10 256:12 257:8 260:22 276:15 ,16 276:16 285:4,5 286:6,7 ,7 295:14 295:16,21 296:12 302:13 ,14 **Schryver** 3:19 6:13 6:13 13:17 ,19,20 **scope** 52:6 53:5 ,6 **scoped** 78:11 **scratching** 282:15 **screw** 72:13 75:18 98:11 **sea** 291:19The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 350 **seal** 168:9 **season** 90:20 95:11 95:22 **seats** 5:3 **SEC** 69:19 **second** 32:8 33:22 42:18 43:20 73:21 74:19 84:19 91:13 95:13 131:12 189:4 195:5 233:3 257:13 **secondary** 67:9 70:6 78:14 **Secondly** 24:16 **secretary** 281:17 **section** 61:8 101:8 138:1 155:16 161:4 195:12 206:3 266:13 309:5 316:22 **sector** 26:4 117:2,4 **secured** 180:6 **Security** 116:18 **sedimentacious** 144:13 **see** 5:5 ,10 8:8 9:20 10:3 23:7 ,16 27:6 27:16 33:8,16 35:9,21 37:17 38:13 ,22 39:20,22 40:14,21 41:7 ,9 41:17 ,19,22 44:2 45:13 46:11 47:17 48:9 58:6 63:5 64:5 66:10 68:6 68:21 72:8 88:11 92:6 93:6 115:9 119:10 120:13 122:10 125:1 ,6 130:6 132:19 136:18 ,18,19 139:17 144:7 160:19 174:2 179:18 182:14 185:3 ,20 187:19 193:7 198:8 ,13 ,18 201:16 206:6 208:10 212:1 ,6 216:14 220:3 229:19 231:21 240:22 243:11 246:2 250:19 252:3 260:16 261:17 268:9 271:11 272:12 279:8 285:20 287:4 290:6 292:9

303:7 308:3 ,21 309:20,22,22 311:5 314:20 319:3 **seeing** 40:10 95:20 124:18 125:10 231:16 250:1 274:16 295:4,8 297:11 **seeking** 49:12 95:8 99:3 **seen** 160:4 229:7 **SEER** 42:17 ,19 **segment** 18:11 52:11 176:9 315:2 **segmentation** 182:15 **segmented** 314:10 **segments** 181:6 **segregated** 184:8 187:1 190:21 **select** 191:1 ,10 223:8 296:15 **selected** 36:9 54:1 55:16,21 56:16 82:7 **selecting** 54:17 **selection** 36:7 54:10 55:14 82:7 250:3 **selections** 55:18 **selects** 191:7 **sell** 75:3 255:20 **selling** 53:19 54:3 54:13 69:11 ,12 115:3 121:17 **sells** 76:4 116:7 ,8,9 **Sempra** 2:22 **send** 227:3 **senior** 311:16,17 312:16 313:6 **sense** 22:17 45:1 99:20 153:13 161:10 188:11 198:17 ,19 235:17 239:5 254:6 276:7 283:15 **sensing** 81:7 ,12 **sensitive** 71:16 **sensitivity** 106:11 178:2 242:13 **sensory** 235:4 **sentence** 95:20 **sentences** 312:15 **separate** 15:8 116:11 188:17 200:1 213:3

218:14 232:14 263:15 313:6 318:15 ,16 **separated** 130:20 **separately** 184:10 188:16 212:16 263:12 **separating** 293:18 **September** 10:1 **sequence** 83:11 **series** 111:20 317:4 **serious** 20:19 78:17 **seriousness** 15:17 **serve** 14:13 51:18 128:2 137:18 **served** 193:21 **service** 293:6,14 **serving** 193:17 195:20 201:14 **set** 37:17 46:10 58:5 83:3 101:13 110:3 111:10 229:8 267:16 293:19 316:6 **sets** 233:11 **setting** 48:6 81:14 133:4 **settlement** 26:10,13 42:19 47:8 **setup** 264:6 **seventh** 35:16 **severely** 50:12 **sewer** 162:10 171:21 **shaped** 258:7 **share** 13:5 28:19 107:7 137:20 246:7 284:2 **share-weighted** 66:18 **shared** 112:8 193:20 195:18 196:2 251:20 **shares** 19:15 35:2 66:22 119:21 186:18 245:6,13 248:14 **sharing** 98:13 142:3 155:11 186:15 **sharp** 263:17 **sheet** 105:7 209:16 314:5 **shell** 194:14,17 195:4,7 196:8 198:16 **Shephard** 78:4,4

83:7 86:15 87:4 **Shepherd** 3:20 **shift** 114:16 259:5 **shifted** 43:2 258:19 **shifts** 80:4 **shipment** 106:20 109:7 190:8 192:9 209:1 239:8,8 247:3 ,5 257:12 262:2 **shipments** 9:5 31:17 31:18 108:15 ,20 186:11 ,19,21 187:1 189:17 190:15 239:15 ,15 239:19,20,21 245:14,16 247:8 247:20 249:5 ,6,7 250:11 ,13 251:2,3 251:4 252:15 253:10 262:1 319:11 **shipped** 44:12 **shipping** 69:14,14 106:8 **shoals** 28:21 **shop** 100:21 226:21 **Shorey** 81:22 113:5 123:2 126:8,10 218:22 **short** 139:3 142:10 165:20 188:3 312:1 **shortcomings** 15:21 **shorthand** 40:4 **shortly** 174:9 **show** 10:6 11:4 31:1 33:2 59:7 ,8 113:7 126:11 183:18 223:9 224:5 242:12 250:17 293:9 309:19 314:15 **showers** 288:21 **showing** 35:19 226:9 242:4 250:12 **shown** 35:6,8 36:10 55:17 91:6 103:3 103:13 ,14,20 104:14 115:21 122:12,13 ,17 145:7 245:22 277:4 286:17 **shows** 27:11 35:8 39:2 54:7 55:11 56:15 66:7 85:19 101:9 122:6,19 207:9 244:13 280:22 **shut** 95:10,21 **shutter** 210:21 **side** 43:3 55:11 93:6 127:9 128:11 158:20 188:14 223:20,22 229:8 245:20 266:12 272:14 296:11 298:6 **sides** 158:10 **sign** 59:12 **significant** 19:12 20:22 80:20 114:3 144:8 194:6,10 198:13 200:22 210:3 230:22 243:11 251:18 254:11 259:15 274:10,11 298:20 298:20 305:3 313:7 **significantly** 22:21 24:17 ,18 90:10 109:13 157:12 201:2 204:20 256:19 299:9 **silent** 13:8 **similar** 69:4 86:19 116:13 118:5 123:21 124:12 137:15 145:7 147:9 154:2,6 163:15 205:2 208:9 238:12 249:14 287:10 294:1 ,7 304:19 310:17 313:2 316:19 **simple** 162:10 222:20 261:15 280:22 281:3 282:1 ,7 289:14 303:10 **simpler** 261:16 **simplification** 303:2 **simplifications** 16:22 **simplistic** 164:19 **simply** 14:5 74:5 171:2 172:10 175:13 247:22The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 351 266:5 293:7 **simulation** 158:21 **simulations** 157:20 **single** 72:13 90:17 159:13 ,22 195:19 201:13 238:14 287:20 291:1 **single-phase** 53:8 53:10 **sir** 61:14 71:9 202:13 **sitting** 38:1 197:3 282:14 313:20 **situation** 58:3 86:19 134:12 142:2 147:8 150:14 151:6,11 158:6 264:15 ,16 282:21 292:6 299:1 300:8 310:7 **situations** 34:12 131:7 140:2 142:11 145:6 150:10 152:6 153:12 169:5 196:4 242:18 273:12 274:7 ,7 292:4 **six** 46:5 142:21 271:12 **Sixth** 35:1 **size** 24:20,22 67:11 68:3 69:16 70:9,9 79:12 82:16 159:9 185:17 192:12 203:2 208:20,22 216:17 ,19 217:5 222:1 288:17 ,18 293:8 316:3 **sizeable** 178:5 **sized** 19:9 **sizes** 69:15 82:2,11 82:21 314:12 **sizing** 173:21 203:9 203:10 **skillful** 87:2 **sleeping** 197:5 **slide** 8:13 10:19 45:11 48:5 ,14 54:7 55:14,17 56:15 60:15 61:14 71:2,4 91:21 92:16 93:13 101:9 102:4 104:9,14 105:6 106:5 115:9 122:6 130:8 ,14 132:15 ,15 140:12

140:21 146:9 150:5 ,9 155:22 160:16 166:4 168:20 179:18 181:3 ,9,9 187:19 189:5 198:6 199:6 212:10,19 225:5 ,7 229:17 247:3 249:3 250:15 267:16 271:15 277:14 286:1 ,12 286:14 290:4 298:12 302:13 303:11 ,14 304:17 309:12,22 311:6 311:19 312:14 **slides** 8:15 ,22 9:17 44:2 45:8 52:2 54:5 ,7 ,14 70:18 90:1 95:16 101:14 103:5 104:3 105:16 120:13 128:20 140:19 155:19 162:13 168:15 174:13 179:13 184:1 ,11 188:11 189:1 202:1 225:3 241:17 245:2,3 256:20 257:11 262:15 264:4,5 267:12,14 268:7 309:15 ,19 319:11 **slight** 250:11 300:14 **slightly** 239:21 251:5 **slipped** 247:6 **slopes** 205:20 **small** 12:22 18:1 28:16 34:18 38:11 39:17 40:11 46:9 46:10 113:22 153:4 164:15 171:19 234:6 252:10 **smaller** 56:3 61:21 82:17 ,18 149:9 159:12 **smarter** 211:20 **snorkel** 155:2,5 ,6 **So-Cal** 145:18 **software** 16:14,19 16:21 **solar** 266:1 **sold** 64:3 ,8 253:11 253:15 **solution** 29:14,21 43:14,18 79:1 98:15 **solutions** 2:10 5:11 34:11 41:19 49:12 51:16 160:6 261:15 274:17 **solve** 98:2 **somebody** 58:8 **somebody's** 44:13 **somewhat** 90:2 313:15 **soon** 17:9 40:12 87:5 **Sophie** 312:3 **sophisticated** 21:14 22:13 **sore** 181:9 **sorry** 53:9 67:7 98:17 106:17 118:22 130:13 ,22 131:21 144:16 189:4,11 190:2 195:13 255:18 259:10 273:22 277:12 294:6,15 **sort** 54:13 56:8 59:9 71:19 81:11 131:19 174:1 228:6,8 266:9 277:14 294:22 308:10 **sorts** 114:8 164:21 175:8 **sounds** 108:19 **source** 110:2 111:21 234:18 235:3 240:16 249:4 256:5 258:11 259:6 294:22 295:3 297:6,13 **sources** 116:22 129:1 137:3 230:10 245:4,15 259:6 **south** 23:21 40:8 89:2 90:7 158:2 171:6 191:12 212:20 213:5 ,10 244:15 246:3 248:2,3 ,11 ,20,21 290:21 291:12,22 314:10 315:7 **southern** 2:12 14:18 23:17 196:6 290:18 297:21 **Southside** 47:20 79:18 **space** 129:17 130:8 131:14 163:14,18 163:21 ,22 164:4,6 164:13 ,18,21 165:1 166:1 185:1 185:2 202:4,7 307:8 **spaces** 160:20 **span** 55:18 **speak** 13:2 45:4 49:4 51:22 62:12 63:10 73:17 74:19 76:1 84:22 89:12 267:2 **speaker** 52:15 308:3 **speakers** 307:21 **speaking** 49:14 66:2 66:8 88:10 98:19 101:6 **specific** 28:17 56:12 62:15 93:4 137:18 152:13 ,19 154:14 154:16 169:22 243:17 258:11 267:12,14 **specifically** 71:2 77:11 86:2 89:13 **specificity** 121:11 **spectrum** 32:7 79:15 **speed** 204:7 ,9 209:7 295:7 **speeds** 204:6 295:8 **spend** 54:15 265:20 278:17 **spending** 95:4 223:10 **spent** 137:5 230:19 **spirit** 282:4 **spot** 63:13 **spread** 58:7 **spreadsheet** 16:14 57:5 104:5 ,8 132:2,4,10,11 ,13 154:12 178:1 209:14 217:14 263:7 ,7 ,13 285:7 285:11 ,17 308:12 308:16 **spreadsheets** 10:12 71:10,15 104:1 133:11 206:13 **square** 141:16

284:12 **stab** 107:16 **stack** 274:17 **stage** 83:16 **stakeholder** 217:3 **stakeholders** 10:6 11:16 26:21 27:12 38:7 45:15 **stand** 8:4 **stand-by** 34:19 **standalone** 99:19 **standard** 15:4 20:18 24:1 27:17 27:18 28:8 29:10 30:1 31:9 36:3 ,4,8 37:6 40:22 41:3 47:21 ,22 48:2 49:5 51:3 55:2 80:5 ,8 81:13 83:16 86:17 90:17 91:18 93:15 94:4 94:7 96:13 102:14 107:5 108:8 ,9,11 111:1 ,10 124:7 ,10 125:13 126:18 127:15 144:1 188:18 192:20 199:22 210:8 ,20 212:13 ,14 213:2,8 213:10,16,19 214:1 ,2 244:3 264:13 ,13 269:21 290:8,9 299:15 304:14 306:14 312:10 318:9 **standards** 1:2 5:6 20:4 22:4 23:1 ,3 25:22 26:6 29:7 31:2 37:1 ,20 39:7 42:16 44:16,17 45:22 46:2,5 ,5 ,8 46:10,13 ,15 ,19 47:1 ,3 ,12,16 48:6 49:6 53:21 60:14 83:12 84:1 ,15 102:3 114:2,12 209:21 211:8 212:17 245:8 287:2 318:14 **Standards/Applia ...**  37:1 **standby** 30:7 34:20 46:6 47:2 90:16 90:17 ,21 93:1 ,7 93:10 95:9,15The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 352 96:12,14,16,19 97:5 188:18 199:19,20,21 ,22 202:21 211:4,4 **standby/off** 93:21 **standing** 78:2 **standpoint** 299:10 **Stanonick** 254:4 **Stanonik** 3:21 5:19 5:19 43:9,10,10 57:13 ,14,14,17 64:18 ,19,19 95:18 95:19,19 97:8 118:7 ,8,8,19 119:13 ,14,14 125:14,15 ,15 162:15 ,16,16,22 164:10,10 170:6,7 170:7 ,13 172:6,6 189:2,3 ,3 ,19,21 193:22 194:1 201:20,21 ,21 202:11 212:9,10 213:7 219:20,21 219:21 233:13 ,14 233:14 246:22 247:1 ,1 ,18 252:3 252:5 ,13 ,13 254:4 282:12,13 283:19 284:20 298:9,10 298:16 300:13 312:13 ,14 313:4,4 **STANONKIK** 194:1 **Stantley** 45:3 48:22 49:3 ,7 **Star** 245:16,18 248:19,19 251:2,3 251:7 252:16,21 253:9,19 259:10 318:10 **start** 5:12 8:9 67:6,7 84:13 87:5 128:4 133:5 181:9 182:8 188:14 214:20 225:20 228:16 254:18 263:1 271:12 285:10 288:18 304:2 **starting** 8:1 45:17 54:9 100:19 128:11 250:19 256:8 **starts** 106:10 124:6 **startup** 134:10 **Stas** 2:6 7:14,14 **state** 18:9 26:3 37:12 78:10 186:21 187:1 225:21 **stated** 96:19 **statement** 14:1 ,5 15:20 64:11 77:21 284:15 **statements** 9:10 17:19 316:18 **states** 14:9,18 18:9 35:3 ,5 ,11 ,13 44:13 247:5 255:22 299:15 312:3 **static** 146:22 147:14 176:6 201:1 ,4 203:13 ,15 207:19 208:4,5 **statistically** 111:14 **statistically-driven** 110:16 **statistics** 185:15 ,20 **statute** 24:1 88:7 282:7 **stay** 112:11 281:8 **staying** 284:22 **stays** 176:6 **steep** 232:17 **step** 26:16 54:16 66:15 69:10 83:8 215:6 **steps** 26:8,20 54:8 54:14 **Steve** 6:17 42:5 ,6 44:5 91:1 ,2,20 92:7 ,14 94:2,3 175:18 ,19 176:5 194:12 197:21 198:3 208:17 ,18 222:3 223:16,17 226:7 227:7 228:12 241:4,5 248:6,7 265:8 ,9 268:16 269:3 ,14 270:9 272:10 277:5 ,6 295:15 297:3 ,4 311:3 **Steve's** 100:8 270:16 **Steven** 3:15 **stickiness** 32:20 261:3 ,6 **sticking** 26:9 319:14 **stock** 176:12 **stop** 53:3 183:12 211:12 270:13 ,15 271:21 280:17 **storage** 265:6,7 290:15 ,15 **store** 116:5 270:20 **stories** 141:11 ,13 **story** 139:3 226:13 **straight** 226:19 281:4 **straight-forward** 126:16 **strained** 50:16 **Strategy** 19:22 **stream** 74:14 257:20 **strictly** 237:1 **strike** 35:10 75:19 **strikes** 283:3 **Strom** 168:9 **strong** 20:6 **strongly** 78:20 **structures** 138:6 **struggling** 314:7 **studies** 224:5 310:19 **study** 145:9 233:6 236:14,18,20 237:1 238:5 242:2 311:5 **stuff** 58:16 99:4 164:16 261:18 ,21 **styles** 250:5 **sub-categories** 315:20 **sub-group** 313:6 **subbing** 117:14 **subgroup** 9:4 101:7 311:14 **subject** 177:9 **submission** 235:22 **submit** 112:6 144:22 179:1 216:22 257:18 260:12 269:1 289:3 297:2 303:3 **submittal** 155:15 **submitted** 10:10,17 14:1 17:1 21:10 33:6 61:1 70:17 207:9 233:6 **subsequent** 103:5 140:19 155:19 **subset** 38:12 40:7 174:5 316:7 **substantial** 295:5 **substantially** 21:2 25:6

**substantive** 17:15 **subterfuging** 220:16 **successful** 10:7 **succinct** 263:19 **Sue** 2:22 **suffers** 50:5 **Suffice** 19:14 **sufficient** 16:1 21:20 208:13 224:22 **sufficiently** 225:2 **suggest** 38:4 74:17 78:20 110:7 117:12 221:4 **suggesting** 109:1 281:2 **suggestion** 81:16 **suitable** 22:11 **summarize** 175:12 182:3 **summarizes** 166:4 175:13 198:6 **summarizing** 104:10 **summary** 8:17 286:16 **summer** 11:7 170:19 300:3 **supplied** 243:3 259:17 **suppliers** 18:17 **supply** 93:15 ,18,19 99:17 175:14 232:2,9 **supplying** 25:13 **support** 21:3 ,9 26:17 28:3 29:21 39:1 91:4 109:9 181:18 265:14 **supported** 10:3 **supporters** 36:21 **supporting** 37:12 **supposed** 49:18 75:12 128:2 130:14 189:14 205:22 244:4,6 307:9 **sure** 9:12 10:18 12:21 41:12 57:16 60:6 62:19 77:5 100:22 107:3 123:21 124:19 148:13 152:13 157:8 178:13 180:5 197:3 ,10,11

217:15 ,22 224:5 231:18 238:4 247:10 258:20 259:7 261:9 274:1 295:17 299:10,18 314:3 ,17 **Surey** 244:11 **surprised** 35:9,21 **surprising** 27:15 **surrounded** 172:13 **survey** 136:6 144:6 149:7 184:20 230:11 234:22 235:14,17 237:15 238:10,18,19,20 238:22 240:17 244:12 276:2,13 278:4 283:8 ,16 **surveys** 165:8 194:3 194:4 237:14 238:11 278:19 283:9,15 317:18 **Susan** 45:2,3 **suspect** 172:2 **Suzanne** 48:22 49:1 49:7 **SW** 1:7 **Swanson** 112:20 120:16,19,21 ,21 **swapping** 77:8 **switch** 50:1 232:9 269:11 272:18 275:17 277:9 288:8 293:11 297:11 ,16 305:20 310:4 **switched** 68:4 306:7 **switches** 310:5 ,17 **switching** 11:20 14:22 15:10 19:13 23:5 24:13 32:8,9 32:12,15 ,15 ,18 33:2,3 ,5 42:11 43:1 93:17 ,19 99:16 103:2 105:3 133:15 137:22 167:16 210:3 240:4 245:1 256:22 257:6,15 261:1 264:7 ,12 265:4 266:13 267:18 ,21 268:15 269:9 270:3 ,6 272:4 273:14 274:21 ,22 279:17The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 353 279:19,21 280:5 280:11 286:5 290:5 ,6,9,11 ,14 290:19 293:3 295:22 296:8 ,9,16 297:13 300:21 302:14,20 303:6,8 303:15 ,15 ,17 ,18 304:3 ,4,18,18,18 305:13 ,15 ,16,21 306:4,7 ,11 ,13 310:3 ,7 ,14,16 **system** 19:7 90:19 96:2,3 ,7 147:16 167:19 168:10,12 244:7 265:20,22 269:18 270:1 298:21 303:11 **systems** 14:8,9,10 14:11 ,15 18:21 98:6 197:9 **T T**  3:13 4:3 181:1 **table** 55:11 ,17 85:19 116:15 122:19 125:6 145:7 ,8 174:18 191:6 198:9 202:22 208:2,19 209:16 224:17 247:9 276:10 278:5 294:8 ,13 307:5 **tabulate** 77:16 **tabulated** 271:11 ,16 **tackle** 218:7 **tail** 40:4 112:1 198:19 227:14,18 229:1 **take** 5:3 9:1 ,2,6 43:1 59:4 63:20 88:12 100:13 ,14 107:16 119:11 138:5 141:2,5 ,8 141:15 ,18 145:5 148:22 150:18 ,22 151:21 153:15 155:19 156:9 162:6 165:14 166:8 167:11 168:6 169:6,8,11 170:1 ,21 179:18 179:22 183:2,16 185:8 186:16 187:3 ,6 188:18 199:9 200:9,21

203:9 211:2 214:15 220:19 232:20 255:4 270:8 272:4,21 273:3 288:21 289:1 303:20 309:14 311:14 **taken** 122:11 141:9 142:18 156:19 172:7 176:13 182:12 187:20 188:12 200:15 201:6 275:9 310:15 **takes** 60:18 134:21 155:7 ,9 211:5 **talk** 12:9 44:17 54:5 54:13 62:6,7 72:1 95:1 104:21 120:6 146:18 195:18 202:11 214:16,16 222:18 223:19 233:15 262:4 298:5 308:8 **talked** 300:3 **talking** 38:6 43:4 47:21 64:22 80:3 87:6 94:14,20 96:1 104:18 157:14 160:11 188:22 204:3 209:9,22 210:2 213:14 214:20 227:14 228:20,22 293:21 301:11 ,12 318:10,10 **talks** 48:5 55:14 57:10 **tank** 270:4 **tanks** 18:7 **tape** 169:17 177:1 215:22 **targeted** 38:9 **tariff** 227:18 233:5 **tariffs** 229:7 ,22 230:1 **task** 58:21 283:20 **taught** 16:18 **tax** 34:2 112:1 ,3 ,6,7 112:7 ,14,15 117:7 119:18 ,18 120:6,7 122:15 127:3 249:20 254:11 ,15 **tax-incentivized** 120:9 **taxes** 117:6

**tear** 56:5 58:20 62:22 72:11 227:22 **teardown** 55:15 57:1 ,7 58:15 66:16 67:14 70:20 75:2,5 76:5 **teardowns** 56:17 ,20 57:19 68:5 ,13 ,17 68:18 82:7 **tearing** 76:22 **tech** 212:4 **technical** 16:5 ,11 17:16 21:3 ,9,22 22:18 24:6,10 30:20 38:22 87:6 91:4 181:17 206:10,11 ,12,14 306:1 **technically** 48:8 **technician** 136:1 **technologies** 34:7 ,7 60:13 ,17 61:6 80:14 109:6 173:18 269:7 **technology** 6:6 16:6 16:7 34:17 54:9 55:8 67:22 71:1 81:4 99:22 100:4 106:18 111:4 212:2 232:16 236:7 266:8 298:1 **telephone** 13:11 **tell** 26:11 43:15 58:5 95:20 159:9 170:14 190:18 232:22 256:21 282:11 308:17 **tells** 235:15 **ten** 95:4 174:10 **tend** 32:22 **tends** 25:1 **tenths** 94:6 **tenure** 244:13 **term** 40:15 130:11 285:21 **termination** 149:20 153:16 154:17 ,21 155:2,4,6,7 **terminations** 154:15 ,19 **terminology** 157:1 **terms** 32:17 42:15 42:22 70:19 92:1 100:1 102:1 ,9 103:10 107:20

118:4 132:5 ,16,19 140:15 141:14 142:13 ,15 ,22 151:22 153:20 154:15 165:6 166:16 169:11 170:2 174:2,20 175:13 176:11 ,12 177:3 181:13 182:11 185:11 ,15 185:22 186:2,11 186:12,14 189:12 192:16,17 194:16 194:17 198:9 199:9,17 ,21 200:20 209:10,22 211:7 ,9 214:13 215:2 219:15 ,16 220:5 224:4,7 225:4,5 ,8,14,15 225:17 232:7 235:15 237:11 ,12 239:3 ,4,21 243:3 243:3 244:17 ,22 245:22 246:6,7 247:16 248:4 249:11 ,12 251:8 253:13 ,17 254:12 256:7 ,8 258:15 264:19,20 265:3 265:22 266:9 271:16 275:1 276:7 277:2 278:16 279:1 ,2,10 280:10 283:8 285:16 286:22,22 287:10 288:1 ,5 ,11 288:13 289:20 290:5 297:11 303:19 306:9 308:21 ,22 310:8 313:2 315:3 ,4,12 **Terri** 187:16 **terribly** 8:19 **terrific** 39:18 **Terry** 234:6 **test** 65:1 ,4,9,13 66:9 83:9,11 ,15 84:3 84:12 87:6 88:5 88:11 ,16 89:20 91:17 92:12,20 94:4,12,22 123:18 199:11 201:4 204:4 **tested** 91:13 ,16 93:4 **testimony** 207:9

**testing** 66:3 ,4 91:14 94:16 204:6 259:17 **Texas** 100:6 **thank** 8:7 9:19 13:19 17:12,17 ,18 19:18 25:16,19 26:9 27:12 36:18 42:7 43:6,7 45:2 48:21 49:4 51:21 52:1 ,21 74:12 75:13 78:1 ,7 79:21 81:18 84:16 86:5 90:5 ,11 92:8 92:14,16 95:5 100:12 101:4 105:11 107:13 113:11 114:21 ,22 117:16 118:16 121:13 123:6 124:1 126:14 134:7 135:7 137:1 138:8 139:19,20 145:2 146:14 147:20 148:2 150:4 156:22 157:3 ,15 160:9,14 162:11 163:12 165:3 ,11 168:13 168:19 174:11 175:3 ,11 176:4,13 176:15 ,20 177:6 177:15 ,17 179:3 181:7 ,8,21 183:14 187:17 191:22 192:1 194:8 196:21 197:12,13 199:8 201:17 ,18 203:20 208:15 210:14,15 214:9 214:21 215:15 216:2,22 219:20 226:14 229:16 234:20 236:8 241:8,11 242:21 244:9 246:21 247:10 250:6 253:5 255:11 256:6 258:13 259:20 263:4 266:15 267:5 ,9 270:10,13 ,14 271:8 272:8 273:2 274:20 277:12,22 281:14 283:4The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 354 285:2,3 ,18,22 289:17 290:4 291:13 ,15 294:17 295:20 298:8 ,15 300:6,15 301:18 302:22 303:4 304:5 307:18 ,20 309:1 311:11 312:6,12 313:9,22 314:22 316:12 318:21 ,22 319:17 **thankful** 37:3 ,14 **thanks** 36:14 45:9 64:17 71:6 111:21 146:2 175:4 198:2 201:20 244:8 259:11 264:9 **Tharp** 3:22 **theory** 221:4 **thereto** 14:3 **therm** 223:21 **thermostat** 218:12 221:8 **thermostats** 215:7 **thing** 28:2,2 33:22 42:4 85:5 89:1 ,10 100:3 111:22 113:22 145:3 150:9 156:9 182:4 188:4 223:15 231:22 247:2 255:4 261:1 313:21 **things** 11:10 14:20 28:4 43:11 64:5 75:8 82:10 89:10 114:9 144:10,12 158:1 173:22 182:2 211:17 221:21 228:13 281:3 291:17 297:17 307:22 308:1 310:11 **think** 8:3 10:11 11:17 ,21 13:5 26:19 27:10 29:10 29:16,21 31:6,13 32:5 ,14,17 ,19 33:1 34:1 ,19 35:1 35:12,16 36:6,12 37:16 39:13 40:21 41:5 42:14 48:14 48:22 52:10,18 53:12 60:5 61:7 61:21 64:12 65:16 65:22 66:2 75:14 80:1 ,17 84:2 85:3

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**times** 38:10 69:13 95:20 127:5 159:13 205:17 ,19 230:18 274:15 287:13 307:21 **Timothy** 2:11 **today** 5:8 8:12 9:13 10:3 ,15 11:17 12:3 17:10,15 20:2 27:7 29:4,4 34:10 35:21 38:22 42:8 44:11 45:20 46:3 48:15 49:4 49:14 50:4 51:9 51:22 52:9 66:11 76:4,15 77:2,22 90:4 124:18 173:7 174:19,20 178:22 299:15 307:21 308:2 310:16 **today's** 47:10 **told** 206:19 **tolerate** 256:18 257:9 **Tom** 73:1 75:22 76:1 ,9 **ton** 27:21 28:1 204:8 208:21 **tons** 20:16 209:1 **tool** 86:22 **tools** 10:2,5 ,6 37:10 37:17 105:2 **top** 91:9 109:21 135:13 207:19 **topic** 183:21 244:20 **tore** 58:17 67:1 85:5 **torn** 57:8 66:14 **torque** 73:4,5 ,9,10 224:18 **tortured** 37:7 **total** 58:20 61:4,20 93:12 101:22 102:18 ,21 103:12 104:15 139:4,9 166:14 239:3 275:5 280:2,6 293:11 **totally** 13:10 77:6 172:12 220:14 242:7 266:14 270:12 281:11 **touched** 85:2 174:5 **tough** 34:15 38:15 **town** 119:8 217:21 **track** 227:18 **tracking** 196:15 247:2 **trade** 17:22 **trading** 121:3 **traditional** 285:8 **trailer** 69:15 **training** 172:20 173:7 ,9,10,17 ,18 174:3 ,16 175:8 **tran-site** 144:13 **Trane** 59:14 **transcript** 13:4 **transformation** 252:1 ,9 295:5 **transformer** 93:8 93:15 ,16,20 99:18 232:12 **transite** 144:19 **translate** 251:14 **translates** 247:20 **transparency** 10:5 11:16 15:7 ,12 16:3 21:5 26:21 **transparent** 75:12 75:19 98:22 **transporters** 18:7 **travel** 319:8 **traversing** 150:1 **treaty** 262:8 **trend** 69:3 106:8 ,13 107:1 ,2,12 108:8 108:18 113:8 250:11 ,20,21 **trends** 102:16 106:6 106:12 109:20 112:16 226:3 286:20 **trial** 107:5 108:8 ,9 108:10 212:13 ,14 212:16 213:1 ,2 **tried** 71:19 130:13 147:11 151:2 157:19 183:4 187:6 262:11 267:16 295:16 **trifurcated** 207:4 **trillion** 20:15 **trip** 133:2 **triple** 139:12 **troubling** 21:12 25:5 **true** 77:6 81:16,16 148:21 229:1 265:12 266:5 313:5 **truly** 100:20The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 355 **trust** 303:1 **truth** 232:22 **try** 12:5 52:12 71:18 101:13 106:16 112:4 120:17 129:19 132:4 137:2,6,9 212:7 218:7 229:10 235:1 237:17 ,22 263:18 264:2 265:12 270:19 285:19 295:18 296:4 319:6 **trying** 13:9 43:13 72:5 85:8,10 137:16 146:8 151:3 163:6 184:3 186:10 202:17 211:2 213:1 228:19 236:15 ,18 236:22 260:5 261:8 272:12 282:20,22 315:21 **TSC** 294:8 **TSD** 34:8,21 41:15 69:17 71:11 ,18 85:19,21 111:18 113:7 124:14 125:5 132:16 145:8 148:11 154:8 ,11 175:16 193:1 195:10,12 208:12,13 222:4 225:19 231:6 234:16 243:5 247:22 273:3 ,8 276:11 286:17 289:3 313:8 **TSL** 214:1 232:2 **TSL4** 215:19 **turn** 5:10 12:19 70:15 116:8 ,9 221:8 231:13 270:18 317:15 **turned** 13:7 62:19 231:16,20 317:5 **turning** 5:14 **turnout** 9:20 **twice** 42:16 298:3 ,4 **two** 31:14 33:12 44:12 46:1 53:14 56:19,20 67:22 68:6,8,10 76:22 90:8 116:22 135:11 141:11 ,12 148:12 153:19 155:14,14 158:1

161:12 184:7 193:15 195:20 196:4 199:17 200:1 202:1 205:3 205:12 206:1 218:10,19 229:10 233:11 236:2 241:16 245:3 246:14 251:7 254:5 256:2,20 266:4,10 267:11 267:13 279:22 286:20 291:16 302:17 312:15 **two-stage** 64:21 65:4,8,15 73:3 ,4,9 73:10 76:3 ,12,14 76:16,17 ,17 ,20,20 87:18 **type** 36:11 40:22 80:15 115:7 ,13 155:2 159:8 183:4 185:8 ,12 188:6 203:1 265:19 278:13 316:4 **types** 190:20 **typical** 69:15 95:2 134:6 141:6 146:20 171:16 203:16 207:16,20 208:7 209:1 **typically** 27:5 38:12 67:10 90:18 92:4 127:5 207:22 317:13 ,17 **U U.S**  1:1 ,6 17:22 117:1 ,6 238:21 **ultimate** 120:2 **ultimately** 28:11 ,20 29:9 36:9 63:2 108:6,7 **unable** 23:11 **unacceptable** 19:10 **unanswerable** 315:17 **unanswered** 17:7 21:11 **unavoidable** 44:4 **unaware** 88:9 **uncertainties** 261:3 **uncertainty** 16:15 65:2 84:2 103:21 229:10 **uncondensing**

191:13 **unconditioned** 158:13 160:20 163:18 164:4,5 ,6 **underestimates** 22:21 24:12 **underestimating** 171:7 **underline** 16:4 **underlines** 66:5 **undermines** 78:21 **underpinnings** 16:11 **understand** 12:5 16:20 26:22,22 27:11 32:3 49:17 109:8 118:12 148:9 152:5 ,13 159:15 160:1 ,7 177:18 206:1 211:16,20 213:1 219:22 227:17 228:4 229:5 239:14 247:4 251:18 255:13 256:2 257:7 258:11 263:2 296:18 ,19 316:1 **understanding** 10:12 16:4 21:22 22:19 24:9 80:14 84:6 97:1 170:8 237:10 **understated** 33:11 **understating** 312:4 **understood** 237:22 295:18 **undoubtedly** 222:1 260:13 **undue** 23:10 **unexplained** 25:3 **unfairness** 84:2 **unfinished** 130:4 **unfortunate** 40:12 **UNIDENTIFIED** 52:15 **uniform** 289:15 ,22 **unintended** 20:19 **unique** 12:14 **unit** 23:12 57:2,8 75:3 82:1 93:11 121:2,4 133:5 134:10 143:22 162:18 218:15 **United** 44:13 255:22 299:15

**units** 53:9,9,10 55:15 ,16 56:1 ,3 56:16 57:21 58:16 66:14 68:6 74:1 75:1 82:7 ,9,17 86:9 87:19 93:18 150:11 190:21 193:21 195:18 196:3 ,5 249:15 **universally** 67:9 **University** 242:2 **unknown** 100:10 **unknowns** 100:6 **unmute** 13:14 45:4 49:1 **unmuted** 73:17 79:5 112:22 120:18 139:6 201:10 **unrealistic** 318:4 **unrealistically** 290:20 317:8 **unreasonable** 74:8 75:9 **unsuccessfully** 157:19 **update** 46:15 **updated** 157:22 158:21 260:14 **upfront** 179:9 **upgrading** 293:6 **upscale** 302:11 **upward** 250:12 **Urban** 239:1 **urge** 51:15 84:19 **usage** 205:9 **use** 10:6 16:21 20:7 30:10 32:15 40:4 53:9 71:1 82:13 84:14 86:17 87:18 92:4 102:6 104:11 104:19 111:16 113:15 123:7 ,8 128:7 129:18 130:5 131:6 147:5 147:8,21 163:17 164:17 171:5 176:18 183:22 184:8,9,9,12,14 184:16,17 ,19,20 187:11 188:15 ,15 188:19,22 193:5 ,7 198:7 ,10 199:10 199:12,15 ,17 ,18 200:11 201:2,3 203:4 209:15 211:9,10,14

212:21 215:11 217:11 218:10 219:1 ,15 221:12 221:21 223:20 225:14 226:1 ,3 ,22 232:16 233:5 234:21 235:1 ,5 ,9 235:13 237:8 ,14 238:17 ,17 239:3 240:15 259:17 268:11 274:15 276:9,12 278:18 284:9 287:1 ,18 288:4 291:18 301:2 **useful** 10:10 64:14 80:17 192:15 ,16 193:11 199:13 ,14 202:2 **uses** 25:3 57:6 104:2 121:15 185:1 188:5 192:5 207:12 210:4 238:18 **usual** 26:20 45:11 **usually** 64:9 179:22 188:3 ,4,5 203:5 212:4 274:9,10 283:11 ,13 288:3 ,5 **utilities** 12:12,17 39:10 **utility** 14:15 26:4 37:12,21 48:13 163:2 227:20 302:1 **utility-supported** 20:8 **utilized** 67:9 73:3 ,9 76:12 **V V**  3:5 **VA** 93:15 **valid** 80:20 **validate** 136:12,15 237:9 **validity** 74:7 **value** 30:8,16 65:11 118:4 137:20 154:8 179:7 198:17 209:4 212:2,6 220:13 221:3 ,5 ,9,17 ,18 222:5 223:7 ,7 ,13 230:20 239:21The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 356 240:9,11 ,15 253:19 257:5 261:7 278:17 279:10 286:22 287:12,15 ,18,19 287:20 299:6,7 300:4 **values** 36:8 66:10 91:8 113:14 122:7 122:8 125:7 137:10,10 179:1 198:11 205:3 206:7 209:8 ,17 210:15 221:13 225:16,18 226:1 ,4 235:6 243:12 251:8 259:21 276:9 278:6 287:21 290:16 295:9,9 **variability** 16:15 103:21 **variable** 196:1 238:14 295:7 **variables** 16:16 85:9 **variation** 59:19 144:8 **variety** 54:6 **various** 15:21 34:12 230:9 268:2 **vary** 122:1 ,12 160:19 240:22 290:7 291:18 **vast** 97:2 **vastly** 312:4 **vaulted** 307:3 **vent** 19:3 ,9 140:9 140:10,17 ,17 ,21 141:1 ,4,17 142:6 142:8 ,12,13 143:2 143:15 ,16 150:2 153:15 154:15 ,17 154:18 155:2,20 155:20 156:1 ,16 156:20 157:10 159:22 160:16,18 161:16,19 162:2 162:19 163:9 164:20 165:13 ,20 167:19,20 224:8 301:5 ,7 ,8,15 302:9 307:4,4 **vented** 19:2 141:13 141:20 142:1 145:6,10,11 156:17 167:6,20

167:22 168:4 188:7 302:5 **ventilation** 149:22 273:21 **venting** 11:19 18:20 19:7 34:11 ,17 ,17 128:13 ,16,18 140:1 ,7 ,14 141:12 141:17 142:14,19 142:22 143:7 144:5 149:17 151:9 153:5 ,21 154:1 155:7 156:15 159:4,5 160:6,16 161:14 161:21 166:4,12 167:21 168:2,9 183:16 187:15 ,21 188:2,6 246:7 268:12 274:18 **vents** 34:8 159:9 188:3 **venture** 163:3 **verify** 72:7 **verses** 73:10 **VerShaw** 4:3 5:21 5:21 59:3 ,3 88:15 88:15 99:15 ,15 134:4,4,15 ,16,18 134:22 135:9,14 135:17 ,21 136:6 136:15 148:4,5 ,5 159:3 ,18 160:11 202:16,16 203:12 203:15 204:1 ,3 ,18 204:22 205:5 ,8,16 206:9,12 222:12 222:12,20 223:9 223:14 230:12,13 230:13 ,18 231:2,8 232:9,11 ,15 **version** 305:15 308:11 **versus** 73:4 163:18 174:20 178:7 198:10 210:10 213:18 214:1 218:13 246:9 247:13 266:19 267:3 272:15 275:13 295:13 296:6 315:15 **vertical** 142:16,17 143:3 ,4 151:20 153:11 ,12 **vertically** 141:13

142:20 155:3 167:5 274:18 **verticals** 151:19 **Vesik** 4:4 **viability** 49:11 **viable** 269:13 **Vice** 13:20 **Vice-President** 19:22 **Victor** 2:17 7:16 89:11 90:9 101:3 101:5 105:8,12 114:22 118:16 119:6 121:12,14 125:4 134:8 146:4 146:7 ,16 177:17 181:4,8 189:4 194:2 201:8 202:16 206:20 214:3 ,5 224:16 227:15 230:13 233:4 236:13 263:2,21 264:10 292:12,21 294:20 **view** 30:22 41:10,20 164:19 265:13 **views** 17:13 20:2 **Virginia** 35:9 171:11 263:11 ,11 263:14,15 313:21 **virtual** 261:2 **visible** 100:16 **visually** 198:8 **volume** 80:10,21 81:17 **volume's** 80:18 **volumes** 80:3 **voluntary** 121:4 **vortex** 198:1 **W wait**  160:13 177:8 258:18 **waiting** 73:20 100:21 **waiver** 38:9 40:16 41:11 87:18 **waivers** 28:19 **walk** 31:11 172:8 ,9 **wall** 141:16,18,20 141:22,22 142:1 ,3 142:4,4,4,9 151:8 151:9,16 152:3 ,4 152:7 ,22 153:4,10 153:20 154:1 155:8 159:13 ,14

159:22 163:5 172:10 274:3 307:3 ,7 **walls** 151:16 153:1 155:11 172:13 274:9 **want** 10:21 ,22 16:2 26:8,9 27:12 28:4 42:7 43:12,21 52:11 57:18 60:3 78:6,10 83:5 84:17 89:9 98:21 99:6 100:4 101:12 105:6 146:17 152:9 156:5 ,6 158:14 178:13 207:1 209:18 217:15 ,21 220:7 229:5 230:2 231:21 232:17 238:4 242:9 254:8 258:20 259:6 263:18 267:15 276:21 282:10 288:20 294:17 306:19 307:7 309:15 313:13 315:6 317:22,22 319:7 **wanted** 42:13 71:3 78:10 92:8 97:18 109:2 132:10 145:14 162:6 182:2 186:7 195:13 ,17 198:8 202:13 265:20 309:3 **wants** 81:22 **warm** 300:2 **warmer** 220:7 222:6 317:1 **warmth** 223:8 **warranted** 46:3 **wash** 113:16 **washer** 64:1 **Washington** 1:8 5:5 5:9 242:2 **wasn't** 148:13 198:5 284:21 ,22 **watch** 100:13 168:16 **water** 19:1 ,8,9 27:21 86:14 140:15 145:6 149:16 156:10,15 156:17 157:18

158:5 ,16 159:16 160:1 166:8 ,17 ,20 167:5 ,21 ,22 168:5 265:3 ,5 ,6,7 ,22 266:1 ,2,2 271:14 271:18 272:14,15 272:17 ,22 288:1 ,2 288:2,4,4,5 ,9,16 288:19,20,22 289:16,19,21 290:15 ,15 293:13 297:12,16,20 301:6,8,9,9,12,15 302:5 303:9,10 **watt** 94:7 ,15 99:19 **wattage** 209:22 **watts** 93:12 94:8,13 95:3 ,5 99:18 204:9 209:2,3 **way** 25:16 31:19 54:11 63:19 74:11 77:5 78:16 88:7 ,8 98:2 114:3 115:14 119:10 147:17 148:8 151:12,14 178:18 191:15 204:7 205:5 213:2 215:1 218:20 220:2 227:16,21 232:18 234:18 256:1 262:10 268:17 270:19 277:14 284:21 290:13 298:2,2 299:4 302:3 314:6 319:8 **ways** 31:15 49:10 98:4 **We'll** 206:16 **we've** 139:21 **wear** 100:15 **weatherized** 46:16 47:1 156:12 187:5 189:13 ,15 ,19,20 209:3 239:16,18 264:16 **web** 13:11 81:21 227:12 **webinar** 13:8 52:16 72:18 319:5 **website** 219:5 239:11 **weeds** 272:12 **week** 14:2 **weeks** 39:18The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 357 **weigh** 75:15 **weight** 135:12 137:9 187:7 189:7 **weighted** 68:9 209:1 **weights** 57:4 **welcome** 5:4 8:8 9:19 13:9 66:6 95:12 99:5 181:8 250:8 **went** 47:7 65:15 131:21 204:22 211:18 247:11 318:1 **west** 35:9 244:15 263:11 ,11 ,13 ,15 313:21 319:7 **whatsoever** 94:13 **White** 4:5 5:22,22 149:13 ,13 157:7 ,8 195:17 ,17 197:1 ,2 **wholesale** 116:13 **wholesaler** 115:16 116:6,20 117:12 117:18 122:11 **wholesalers** 18:4 173:16 **wholesalers/distri ...**  123:4 **wide** 59:19 164:22 198:18 **widely** 222:1 **Wiley** 2:18 6:8 **William** 3:13 5:17 **willing** 59:22 74:9 98:20 278:11 ,17 279:9,13 282:4,16 283:1 317:17 **Willingham** 215:17 **willingness** 221:6 284:17 317:9 **winding** 305:18 **window** 152:9,9 307:6 **windows** 149:21 152:8 155:10 **Winningham** 4:6 6:11 ,11 215:17 216:15 258:1 266:16,17 ,17 267:1 **WINNINGTON** 259:13 **winter** 300:3 **wish** 52:14 62:18 75:2 77:18 221:19 306:10 **wishes** 8:20 9:10

**withdrawal** 128:14 128:15 169:2 233:17 **withheld** 22:7 **withhold** 42:9 **wondered** 58:15 **wonderful** 179:6 260:9,10 299:12 **wondering** 76:5 ,15 179:14 205:13 232:1 250:2 272:13 **wood** 265:19 270:6 **word** 145:15 263:16 285:7 **words** 48:8 118:12 157:13 253:2 269:8 305:16 **work** 22:16,19 26:1 29:18 37:2,9 38:7 38:14 41:19,22 51:12 84:8 88:17 98:15 ,20 133:8 ,9 136:7 137:16 146:20,22 147:7 147:16 153:21 ,22 154:2,3 ,7 157:11 157:17 159:4,5 160:4 203:18 207:20,20,21 208:6 222:3 260:17 288:12 293:5 300:4 **worked** 22:16 37:1 121:5 313:18 **working** 6:1 24:8 26:14 29:13 38:4 49:10 98:14 **works** 63:8 146:21 307:11 **worksheet** 209:15 **workshop** 5:7 26:15 **world** 80:8 136:19 204:8 **worried** 179:22 **worse** 24:2,8 38:19 39:2 40:8 **worse-off** 40:5 **worst** 158:19 177:13 208:3 243:13 254:6 **worst-** 41:4 **worth** 100:9 **wouldn't** 37:22 90:20 176:8 216:17 312:17

**wound** 258:8 305:18 **wow** 218:18 **wrap** 29:5 **wrapped** 149:14 **writes** 111:19 **written** 19:17 21:10 189:12 231:5 ,6 271:9 **wrong** 81:13 **X X13**  11:8 76:14,17 76:18 ,20,21 77:11 85:16 204:21 224:19,20,21 231:18 234:12 **Y Y,ou**  88:8 **yeah** 52:20 58:4,14 65:19 84:21 85:12 90:6 111:10 121:9 125:4 139:3 178:20 189:11 194:10 206:19 210:9 211:22 226:16 227:4 232:13 249:11 250:7 271:4 272:11 273:3 280:20 286:11 296:20 297:2 300:1 **year** 29:10 87:22 97:5 129:17 197:17 ,20 219:2 223:3 ,21 224:1 ,3 225:19 230:15 ,18 238:5 ,14 239:17 244:4 247:14 252:20 257:15 272:21 ,22 279:7 279:11 ,12 281:6 282:1 301:1 311:9 317:19,21 318:7 **yearly** 235:17 **years** 11:14 24:18 24:19 27:14 34:1 38:6 40:17 42:17 46:5 87:14 148:15 148:17 176:6 191:5 228:6 229:3 230:16 235:15 ,18 235:18 238:6,13 239:2,10 240:18

240:19 244:14,18 245:16 247:4 250:2 251:7 253:3 254:9 256:22 261:5 273:7 275:16 277:8 ,9,16 277:18 280:22 282:4 290:1 291:3 297:7 298:5 302:17 ,17 311:8 317:20 318:4,6 **yellow** 182:9 277:15 **yep** 139:7 194:11 **yesterday** 64:22 65:16,22 66:6 83:20 88:17 89:11 89:17 90:3 97:15 146:19 192:20 **yield** 30:12 **Yokogawa,Yokog ...**  92:4 **York** 136:5 **Z zero**  100:5 179:5 241:13 280:9 295:8 296:8 **zone** 139:8 171:4 196:9,18 **0 0.0**  95:5 **08** 254:14 **1 1**  46:6 93:16 94:14 212:14 219:1 222:4 223:4 235:22 241:7 ,10 241:13 246:18 257:5 286:4 290:1 309:6 **1,000** 14:9 **1,161** 315:11 **1,500** 50:10 **1,800.00** 79:11 80:9 80:12 **1.1** 20:9 **1.21** 125:1 **1.27** 70:2 **1.34** 70:1 122:10 **1.4** 20:11 37:15 **1.74** 224:1 **1/2** 282:3 **1:00** 180:3 **1:45** 180:3 ,10

**10** 42:17 134:21 191:5 197:17 ,20 254:15 ,19 284:18 291:2 317:10,21 318:1 319:6 **10-Ks** 69:19 **10%** 191:12 **10,000** 152:15 185:4 315:6,7 ,12 316:5 **10.00** 221:2,3 **10:30** 9:2 **10:55** 100:13 **100** 243:18 **100%** 77:5 160:19 164:8 242:6 **100,000** 159:11 **1000** 1:7 **103** 210:20 **10K** 116:18 **11** 93:12 254:15 **113** 113:2 **12** 223:22 282:18 291:2 317:11 318:4 **12%** 222:4 **12,000** 185:17 ,18 **12/21** 287:3 **13** 42:17 ,19 290:1 318:4 **13.9** 223:22 **13th** 319:4,9 **14** 42:19 318:4 **14%** 317:11 **140** 140:5 **15** 24:19 100:14 240:8 284:18 **15%** 222:2 223:4 246:12 282:19 283:2 **150** 12:14 **150%** 243:18 **151** 20:15 **16** 24:19 63:1 318:7 **16.1** 30:8 **16.5** 106:9 **163.00** 125:8 **165.5** 50:22 **167** 167:9 **17** 46:10 **17%** 217:19 **172.00** 124:16 **18** 100:6 318:7 **18%** 167:1 **19** 18:10 46:13 ,15 71:2 186:20The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 358 **191** 207:13 **194** 195:2 **1970** 190:19 **1975** 45:18 **1976** 190:17 **1976-1977** 190:17 **1980** 245:18 **1987** 45:21 46:8 **1989** 46:10 **1990** 47:15 149:4 157:21 **1990's** 144:6 **1992** 47:15 186:21 251:9 **1993** 256:7 **1995** 143:11 ,12 149:4 240:19 **1998** 227:9 228:16 **1999** 191:6,7 ,9 **1A** 309:4 **1C** 311:1 **2 2**  61:8 93:17 94:11 94:14 127:5 134:18 ,18 212:14 235:22 257:4 286:4 297:14 **2-stage** 204:5 **2%** 80:7 **2,200** 50:10 **2,800** 18:8 **2.2** 166:14 **20** 176:6 244:14 272:22 **20%** 23:15 166:19 191:9 210:11 241:13 250:5 297:12,14,15 298:13 **2000** 27:22 255:19 **2001** 279:3 **2002** 247:14 **2003** 186:21 247:6 247:14 **2004** 251:10 256:8 **2005** 116:22 250:21 251:12 255:18 ,19 279:3 **2006** 42:18 ,20 278:20 **2007** 46:4,13 47:15 55:2 117:1 ,3 129:4 **2008** 234:22 258:19 259:4 **2009** 149:6,7 185:16

186:6,7 195:9 197:15 245:18 ,18 252:15 ,16 258:9 258:14,17 ,18,18 258:21 ,21 259:1 ,2 259:5 275:21 279:3 **2010** 46:6 50:19,21 240:19 252:17 254:18 259:5 **2010-2011** 259:15 **2011** 11:3 15:6 16:17 25:7 46:19 47:5 61:4,18 96:15 129:4 154:8 154:12 160:22 239:22 240:22 250:22 251:1 ,13 253:8 ,8 254:10 259:5 **2011-2012** 259:21 **2012** 20:10 116:21 117:1 225:20 245:19 251:1 ,19 252:15 253:8 ,19 256:9 258:7 259:5 259:9 **2013** 20:10,16 117:7 129:2 198:4 226:10 251:19 258:6,8 259:5 ,8 278:20,21 279:6 **2014** 20:12 47:9 60:7 154:13 195:8 197:22 198:4 200:17 ,21 201:7 203:8 205:3 206:6 210:8 226:1 236:9 **2015** 1:12 5:8 46:15 47:17 50:19,22 210:10 226:12 **2019** 60:8 210:9 **2020** 226:2 **2021** 11:9 60:10 106:10 144:1 148:14 149:7 ,9 186:8 ,10,18 191:20 193:3 194:16 195:9 196:8 198:11 245:13 248:16 249:7 250:12,19 255:20 **2030** 254:19 **2040** 226:2,4,12 **2050** 106:11

**20585** 1:8 **21** 148:17 230:16,19 318:6 **21.5** 24:18 229:2 **22** 294:12,13 **22.52** 230:18 **225,000** 53:11 **2252** 230:14 **23** 99:17 294:12 **232.09** 50:21 **24** 47:9 **24/7** 96:7 **25** 30:15 175:21 193:18 **25%** 175:21 233:7 278:11 ,18 279:9 279:10 282:17 283:8 293:22 294:4 **27** 1:12 5:8 46:19 263:9 **274.00** 231:10,18 **277** 278:8 **29** 148:15 277:14 **3 3**  93:18 94:11 ,14 134:18 212:17 256:22 257:15 ,17 277:8 ,9,18 281:6 282:3 ,4 286:4 287:14,15 ,16 289:6 302:17 ,17 **3-year** 25:10 **3%** 189:15 ,16 242:9 242:22 **3,500** 315:11 **3.1** 30:2,8 **3.4** 50:19 **3.43** 231:11 **3.5** 275:15 277:16 279:7 ,11 ,12,18,20 296:7 **3/10ths** 148:8,9 **30** 30:5 100:5 176:6 210:12,14 227:22 263:8 311:8,9 **30-year** 106:9,10 **30%** 191:9,10 **304** 305:11 **305.00** 281:1 **31%** 23:17 50:21 **32%** 246:11 **33%** 160:20 163:19 164:7 **330** 219:3

**34%** 50:18 253:21 **349** 219:3 **35** 39:19 **35%** 297:14 **35.00** 154:8 **350** 125:3 **350.00** 50:8 79:10 **355** 219:3 **360.00** 165:19 **365** 96:7 **37** 14:9 **38** 18:9 **39%** 23:20 **39.00** 178:7 ,9 **3rd** 17:11**4 4**  130:17 134:9,15 212:17 219:1 246:18 253:3 267:17 300:10 309:4 314:4 **4-5** 252:20 **4%** 297:14 **4,701** 315:8 **4.4** 30:14 **4:51** 319:18 **40** 93:15 289:1 **40%** 40:8 166:22 210:13 ,14 231:7 **44** 205:17 ,19 **45** 180:2 **45%** 248:10 **467** 209:2 **490** 209:3 **5 5**  30:15 85:20 94:8 134:9,15 183:10 183:11 ,12,12 204:8 212:17 239:17 253:3 254:16 272:21 284:18 286:4 309:7 **5%** 39:2 40:4 92:10 94:8,17 205:9,13 205:21 207:14 **5,700** 185:18 **5.1** 50:18 **5.5** 248:10 **5:00** 263:17 **50** 12:12 18:9 193:17 288:19,22 **50%** 149:16 165:16 229:1

**50,000** 159:11 ,11 **50.00** 136:1 244:4 **51** 181:3 **52** 187:19 **54** 185:21 **55** 189:5 223:20 297:18 **55.00** 223:21 **56.00** 224:2 **58%** 204:6 **58.7** 161:15 ,18 **59%** 162:2 **6 6**  101:18 127:5 239:17 241:7 ,9 286:4 289:6 **6.8** 42:20 **60** 288:18 **60%** 162:1 209:13 **60.00** 135:22 **64** 216:11 **65** 190:20 **65%** 190:20 **66%** 271:20 **67%** 162:19 163:14 164:1 **68** 249:3 **687** 207:13 **7 7**  8:13 102:6 195:14 205:20 223:3 282:6 286:4 289:6 317:19,22 **7%** 122:16 205:11 242:10,22 **7.2** 280:22 **7.7** 42:20,20 305:17 **7.9** 20:15 **70%** 191:11 212:22 **700** 14:9 **727** 219:1 **74** 298:12 **75%** 148:7 **78** 302:13 **792** 279:8 **7A** 187:10 **7B** 193:1 195:15 202:10 **7B.3.1** 202:22 203:18 **7D.3.1** 208:20 **8**The Energy Conservation Standards For Residential Furnaces March 27, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 359 **8** 57:20 125:6 141:6 141:6 161:5 223:3 240:3 241:3 **8%** 205:11 ,13 ,20,20 **8.00** 99:17 **8.2** 42:21 **8.2.7** 125:6 **8.5.1** 39:1 **80** 48:1 76:17 ,20 108:21 ,22 124:15 125:7 ,17 216:11 218:9,13 282:19 **80's** 80:6 224:17 249:7 **80%** 44:7 54:20 56:18 57:21 58:3 58:9 62:2,5 ,10 70:4,5 76:14 79:9 107:6 111:11 126:4 146:12 150:16 178:7 198:12 207:9,13 216:10 282:18 296:14 306:9 **80,000** 55:20 82:1 **80/92** 213:12 **8094** 242:11 **81** 311:6 **86** 86:12 **89,000** 51:1 **8B** 160:22 188:1 **8D** 134:1 135:20 181:20 182:16 183:18 188:9 **8D.2.8** 145:8 **8E** 229:21 **8E-089** 1:9 **8G** 240:12 **8J** 303:21 **8J.4** 294:14 **8J31** 113:7 **8J43** 294:13 **9 9**  42:17 95:3 141:7 298:5 305:17 319:5 **9%** 165:18 253:20 **9.5** 94:7 **9.67** 99:19 **9:00** 1:14 **9:09** 5:2 **90** 76:18 125:19 154:20 219:17 228:9 230:14 248:10 253:11 264:13

**90's** 86:19 230:14 **90%** 55:9 56:18 62:5 ,10 67:7 70:5 70:7 107:9 125:8 191:12 215:22 219:11 230:14 241:14 248:20 275:13 303:7 306:14 **906** 279:6 **90s** 145:9 **91** 186:21 **92** 76:18,21 124:15 207:10 213:11 218:10,12 219:11 219:17 246:12 282:18 **92's** 80:6 **92%** 15:3 18:19 19:3 20:18 23:2 29:21 31:9 56:19 58:8,10 62:5 106:21 107:9 178:7 232:2 296:1 296:6 306:14 **93** 207:10 **93%** 58:9 207:10,13 **95** 67:8 246:8 248:22 249:1 253:11 ,12 **95's** 80:6 **95%** 30:11 31:13 35:9 36:1 39:7 56:19 62:6 67:6,7 68:6 70:7 107:9 219:11 248:9,13 248:16,19 253:10 **957** 208:12 219:2 **97%** 189:9 190:1 **98** 80:6,9,21 108:20 108:22 212:1 **98%** 56:19 68:5 ,11 79:10 80:9,10 107:10 250:3 **99.9** 306:21 307:11

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