P. 1 

# OAR Box 

# 1802 Prepped by Charmelle Mathews



### Document

Number: 

# 59 ) IV-E-5 4 Docket Number: 

# A-90-3 7

Printed 11/4/200811:57:59 AM

Sheet 59 of 117P. 2 

# A-**k.-5T MEETIN G SUMMAR Y EPA/UTILIT Y INDUSTR Y MEETIN G NE W SOURC E REVIE W REFOR M

June 11, 1999 Th e meetin g wa s hel dat

th e office s o f

EPA , N.C . Mutua l Building , 41 1 W . Chape l Hil l Street , Durham , Nort h Carolina . Th e meetin g bega n a t approximatel y 1:0

0 p man d close d a t approximatel y 2:3 0 pm . Attache di s alis t o f attendees . Joh n Seit z opene dth e meetin g b y welcomin g th e participants . Mr . Seit z sai d tha t EP A acknowledge dth e wor k

tha t th e utilit y industr y ha d don e i n preparin g thei r NS Rreform proposal , an dtha t

th e purpos e o f

today' s meetin g wa s for

EP A t o obtai n clarification s o n tha t proposal . Mr . Seit z mentione dtha t EP A ha d als o receive d som e othe r proposal s for

NS Rreform an dtha t EP A was considerin g al l o f them . Mr . Seit z als o sai d tha t today' s meetin g woul d likel y b e th e las t

meetin g wit h th e industr y withi n th e EPA' s NS Rreformprocess , an d tha t Bo b Perciasep e wil l no w decid e wher e th e NS Rreform"goe s fromhere. " Mr . Seit z indicate d tha t EP A woul dnot

b e abl e t o mak e an y decision s a t today' s meetin g an d tha t EP A wil l "ge t

back " t o th e meetin g participant s b y th e en do f Jun e o r earl y Jul y regardin g an y decision s mad e relativ e t o th e utilit y industry' s proposal . Henr y Nicke l responde dt o Mr . Seitz' s openin g remark s b y sayin g tha t th e utilit y industr y ha s viewe dthi s a s apositiv e process . The y hav e looke d at wha t i s at stak e here , i.e. , maintainin g th e existin g facilitie s a s safe , reliable , efficien t an d cost-effective . The y realize d tha t unti l Decembe r

(1998 ) th e directio n wa s confrontational . Mr . Nicke l als o sai d tha t th e utilit y industr y acknowledge dth e frustratio n amon g th e environmenta l group s an d th e Stat e agencies , an d understoo dtha t

th e feelin g i s tha t

th e existin g facilitie s shoul d b e require d t o reduc e emission s t o NS Rlevels . Mr . Nicke l sai dtha t at th e Decembe r

meetin g w e (th e meetin g participants ) steppe d away fromdiscussion s abou t actual-to-potentia l versu s actual-to-actua l versu s potential-to-potentia l an dlooke dat th e bigge r

pictur e o f

ho w t o reduc e emissions . Th e (utilit y industry ) proposa l addresse s bot h th e concerns , i.e. , continu e t o operat e th e existin g facilitie s i n a saf e an dreliabl e manne r

whil e allowin g emissio n reduction s t o tak e place . Th e proposa l allow s th e existin g source s t o los e th e grandfathe r statu s ove r

time . A t th e FebTruar

y meetin g w e (th e utilit y industry ) ha dspecifi c ideas , i.e. , astart date , desire d reductio n levels , en d dat e etc . Mr . Nicke l als o indicate dtha t the y (th e utilit y industry ) receive d apositiv e respons e at th e Februar y meetin g an dals o at subsequen t

meeting s wit h Stat e agencies , an d tha t som e change s wer e mad e t o th e proposa l afte r thos e meetings . Mr . Seit z sai d tha t h e wa s awar e tha t

th e utilit y , industr y ha dme t

wit h STAPPA/ALAPC O an d aske d whethe r the y ha d me t

wit h th e environmenta l community . Mr . Nicke l repliedtha t th e utilit y industry ha d not , bu t indicate d tha t the y ha dsen t

alette r t o Dav e Hawkin s wh o wa s awar e o f th e utilit y industry' s proposa l an d tha t th e utilit y industr y was tryin g t o arrang e ameetin g with Mr . Hawkins .

... . ) EP A AI R DOCKE T_PJ _



### Joh n McManu s presente dan

ddiscusse dtw o overhea

dgraphica l chart s showin g actua

l andprojecte demission s o f

S0 2 

### an dNO x 

### fromcoal-firedunit s ove r th e 30-yea

r perio dfrom199 0 throug h 2020 . (The chart s ar e attache d t o thi s meetin g summary) . Mr . Seitz confirme dthat th e char t showedtha

t th e projecte demissio n rate fo r NO x 

### afte r signin g up i n 201 0 wa s 0. 4 lb/MMBt u an dindicate dtha

t STAPPA/ALAPC O wa s looking a t asomewha

t tighter limit . Mr . Nicke l acknowledge dtha t th e utilit y industry' s projectio n di dno t meet STAPPA/ALAPCO' s expectatio n fo r reductions . Davi dSolomon aske dwha t contro l technology(ies ) wouldaccoun t fo r th e projecte dS0 2 

### emissio n reduction s from201 0 throug h 2020 . Mr . McManu s replie dtha t mos t of th e reduction s wouldb e achieve dthroug h th e us e o f cleane r fuel s (river-basi n coa

l (?? ) an dnatura l gas ) an dfrombanke demissio n allowances . Whe n askedby Mr . Solomon whethe r th e AE O (annua l energy output

) number s wer

e actual s or

cappe d levels , Mr . McManu s replie dtha t th e soli dlin e show

n on th e char

t reflecte dth e actua

l levels . Mr . Solomon aske dwha

t project s wer

e expecte dto achiev e reduction s in th e NO x 

### emissio n rate i n th e las t 1 0 year s (2010-2020) . Mr . McManu s replie dtha t ther e wer e none , bu t

possibl y th e us e of lo w NO x 

### burner s or

equivalen t coul db e expected . Whe

n aske db y Mr . Solomo n wh y th e char t showed a n increas e i n tota

l NO x 

### emission s between 201 0 an d2020 , Mr . McManu s explaine dtha

t it wa s du e to bot

h som e expectednew (non-coal ) capacit y anda n increas e i n th e utilizatio n of

existin g capacity . Richar dChastai n presente dan

ddiscusse da

n overhea dchar t showin g th e ag e structur

e o f U.S . fossil-firedunit s (se e attached) . Mr . Chastain explaine dtha t th e olde r units , althoug h mor

e in number , accounte dfo

r arelatively smalle

r percentag e of

tota l capacity . Mr . Chastai n als o explaine d tha

t th e newe r unit s wer e cleaner , an

dtha t post-197 5 unit s wer

e subjec t to ne w sourc e standards . He furthe

r explaine dtha

t th e newe r large r unit s wil l als o b e subject

to Titl e IV , NO x 

### SI P cal l etc. , andwil l b e likely candidate s fo r scrubbing ; hence , thes e unit s wer e cleane r no w and will b e cleane

r in th e future . Mr . Solomon questione dwhethe r th e char t showedall utilit

y unit s o r jus t coal-fire dunits . Mr . Chastain indicate dtha t ther e wa s aseparat

e char t fo r jus t th e coal-fired unit s whic h looke dver y simila r to th e overhea

dchart . (The char

t fo r coal-fire dunit s onl y wa s als o provide dto Mr . Solomon a t th e en do f th e meetin g - se e attached) . Bil l Brownell introduce dth e utilit y industry' s proposal . Mr . Brownell sai dtha t th e proposa l consiste dof

tw o parts ; th e first

par t dealt wit h th e simplificatio n of

th e NS R requirements , an

dth e secondpar

t wa s th e existin g sourc e contro l program . The propose d component s of

th e firs t part , NS Rsimplification , include dth e following : (1 ) NS Rshoul dapply to all ne w andmodifiedunits , (2 ) th e emission s tes t fo r applicabilit

y shoul db e simila

r t o th e NSP S test , (3 ) n o "nettin g out " fromemission s contro l requirement , and(4 ) n o triggerin g o f NS R base do n emission s of

C O (carbo n monoxide) . Whe n askedby Mr . Solomo n a s t o ho w man y new unit s coul db e expecte din reality , Mr . Brownell indicate dthat , lookin g into th e future , ther e wil l b e som

e new turbines . Whe

n askedto clarif

y abou t CO , Mr . Brownell explaine dtha t C O shoul dhav e aseparat

e NS Rprogram , an

dtha t C O emission s shoul dno t

b e use dt o qualif

y a sourc e fo r majo r sourc e statu s fo

r othe r pollutant s unde

r NSR . Regardin g th e emission s tes t fo r applicabilit

y (NSPS-typ e test) , Mr . Solomon confirmedtha t a n increas e i n hourly emission s would trigger

review , an

dtha t th e baselin e wouldb e th e achievabl e hourly emissio n rate .P. 4

Mr . Brownel l concurre dwit h Mr . Solomon . Fo r th e secon d par t

o f th e proposal , Mr . Brownel l sai dtha t ther e wer e tw o option s propose d for reducin g emission s fromth e existin g sources : a n "ag e based " option , an da"glid e path " option . Mr . McManu s presente dth e "ag e based " option . Th e optio n consiste d o f th e following : th e start dat e was year

2010 , th e trigge r

ag e for th e unit s was 5 5 year s (base d o n EP A studie s tha t indicate da55-6 5 year

rang e o f usefu l life) , an d th e en d dat e was 203 0 whe n al l unit s regardles s o f ag e woul db e covere dunde r thi s option . Onc e triggered , th e uni t woul d eithe r

b e controlle d o r shu t down , o r equivalen t

emission s woul d b e reduce d at othe r unit(s) , suc h a s ayounge r unit . Whe n aske db y Mr . Solomo n abou t ho w emission s tradin g wil l work considerin g tha t

som e ol d unit s ma y not

b e abl e t o mee t

a0.1 5 lb/MMBtu NO x emissio n level , Mr . Brownel l sai d tha t the y wil l discus s detail s wit h EP A "i f w e g o ahea d wit h th e proposal. " Mr . McManu s furthe r sai d tha t th e targe t emissio n level s wer e 0. 6 lb/MMBtu for S0 2 (surrogat e for

NSPS ) an d 0.1 5 lb/MMBt u for NO x (curren t

NSPS) . Bruc e Buckhei t indicate d tha t

i f auni t was not o f muc h us e after

ag e 55 , an di f th e utilit y industry wa s proposin g t o shu t i t dow n at ag e 55 , the n th e industr y wa s not promisin g much . Mr . Nicke l an dMr . McManus clarifie d tha t th e unit s ar e stil l usefu l beyon d ag e 55 , mayb e u p t o 7 5 o r 8 0 years , an d tha t

the y wer e onl y proposin g t o instal l control s a t ag e 5 5 for th e res t o f th e unit' s life . Mr . Seit z suggeste d tha t th e industr y shoul d als o tal k t o Mr . Hawkin s abou t

th e 55-year

ag e trigger . Whe n aske d b y Mr . Solomo n whethe r th e ag e o f

5 5 woul db e measure dfromoperatio n dat e o r th e dat e whe n constructio n i s commenced , Mr . Nicke l sai dtha t i t woul db e measure dfromth e operatio n date . Mr . McManu s presente d a n overhea d chart tha t showe dth e entr y patter n o f th e fossil-fire d unit s ove r th e propose d 20-yea r

perio d (se e attached) . Mr . Seit z confirme dtha t th e chart showe d tha t

abou t 50 % o f th e capacit y woul d "com e into " th e progra mi n 203 0 a t a n ag e o f les s tha n 5 5 years . Jerry Golde n presente dth e "glid e path " option . Th e optio n consiste d o f th e following : th e start dat e wa s yea r

2010 , all unit s woul d b e covere d at start , th e initia l emissio n limi t woul d b e se t a t th e allowabl e levels , thefina l emissio n limi t woul d b e th e sam e a s th e targe t emissio n level s unde r

th e "ag e based " optio n abov e (0. 6 lb/MMBtu S0 2 an d 0.1 5 lb/MMBt u NO x ) , an d linear reductio n o f

emission s throug h th e en d dat e o f year 2030 . Whe n asked b y Mr . Solomo n whethe r th e initia l limi t

woul db e se t

at allowabl e o r

actua l levels , Mr . Golde n explaine d tha t th e permi t limit s o f th e units , after

accountin g for

reduction s fromothe r

program s suc h a s Titl e IV , woul db e use dt o se t

th e initia l limit , i.e. , th e industry i s proposin g t o us e arealisti c allowable . Bil l Harnet t

sai dtha t i f th e industry wa s proposin g t o us e allowable level s a s th e initia l limit , an d i f asourc e ha s banke dalo t o f emissions , the n th e actua l reduction s ma y onl y b e see n after 2030 . Mr . Golde n sai dtha t

th e banke demission s wer e aresul t o f severa l earl y reduction s whic h hav e alread y bee n realized . Mr . Nicke l sai d tha t th e industry woul d si t

dow n an d tal k

abou t detail s i f EP A decide dt o g o forwar dwit h thi s proposal . Mr . Golde n als o explaine d tha t eac h sourc e wil l hav e t o decid e o n eithe r

th e "ag e based " o r

th e "glid e path " optio n a t th e beginning , an d tha t switchin g bac k

an dfort h betwee n th e tw o option s wil l not b e allowed . Mr . Nicke l sai dtha t

th e utilit y industry was no w i n th e proces s o f evaluatin g STAPPA/ALAPCO' s questions . H e fel t tha t th e industry ha s mad e alo t o f progress , bu t

als oP. 5



### realize dtha

t EP A di dno t wan t alength y proces s a

t thi s stage . Therefore , th e utilit y industr y wa s ope n t o a n EPA-propose dschedule , an dwa s willin g t o si t

down andtalk

about detail s o f th e proposal . Mr . Seit

z sai dtha t EP A wa s respectfu

l of th e progres s mad

e andacknowledge dtha

t th e proposal s wer

e amajo r ste p in th e process . Mr . Seit

z als o sai dtha

t Bo b (Perciasepe ) wil l now decide a s t o wha

t shoul db e done , an

dtha t Bo b ma y ask abou t schedule , i.e. , wher

e i s th e en dof th e refor mprocess . If

th e schedule i s t

o finalize th e refor

mrul e b y th e en

do f th e yea r (1999) , the n wha

t i s th e forcing function ? Mr . Seit z agai n mentione dtha

t EP A hadreceive d othe r proposal s andsaidtha

t th e STAPPA/ALAPC O woul dlik e input fromth e environmenta

l communit y als o befor

e EP A consider s an

y o f thes e proposals . A

n industr y representativ e (? ) saidtha t th e EP A shoul dno t

expec t to ge t aful l consensus , but

tha t th e EP A wa s o n th e right pat h and tha t they shoul dcal l wit

h an y questions . Mr . Seit

z sai dtha t h e wil l conve

y thi s t o Mr . Perciasep e andge

t back to th e utilit

y industr y b y early nex

t month . Th e meetin g wa s the n adjourned .P. 6



### ATTENDEE S EPA/UTILIT

Y INDUSTR

Y MEETING NE W SOURC

E REVIE W REFOR

M June 11, 1999 Nam e Henr y Nicke l Bil l Brownel l Jerry Golde n Richar dChastai n Gen e Marshal l Berni e Huf

f Barb Gambil l Ro b Brubake r Da n Stee n Michae l Cashi n Joh n McManus Joh n Seit z To mCurra n Bil l Harnet t Kare n Blanchar d Denni s Crumple r Davi dSolomo n Da n DeRoec k Davi dSvendsgaar d Gre g Foot e (vi aphone ) Ann aWoo d(vi aphone ) Bruc e Buckhei t

(vi aphone ) Cajo l Holme s (vi aphone ) SamNapolitan o (vi aphone ) Mala y Jinda l Valeri e Everett e Affiliatio n Hunto n & William s Hunto n & William s TV A Southern Co . PacifiCor p Cinerg y Cinerg y Porte r Wrigh t F E MinnesotaPowe r AE P EPA/OAQP S EPA/OAQP S EPA/OAQP S EPA/OAQP S EPA/OAQP S EPA/OAQP S EPA/OAQP S EPA/OAQP S EPA/OG C EPA/OPA R EPA/OEC A EPA/OEC A EPA/OA P PE S (EP A Contractor ) PE S (EP A Contractor ) Telephon e No . (202)955-156 1 (202)955-155 5 (423)751-677 9 (205 ) 257-666 4 (801 ) 220-223 5 (513)287-388 4 (513)287-264 1 (614 ) 227-203 3 (330 ) 384-370 4 (218 ) 722-564 2 (x3339 ) (614)223-126 8 (919)541-561 6 (919)541-555 9 (919 ) 541-497 9 (919)541-550 3 (919)541-087 1 (919)541-537 5 (919)541-559 3 (919 ) 541-238 0 (202 ) 260-762 0 (202 ) 260-877 2 (202 ) 564-226 0 (202 ) 564-870 9 (202)564-975 1 (919 ) 941-033 3 (919 ) 941-033 3 

# 5 "P. 7



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## Generatio

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## SQ 2 D 

## NO x 25 %

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### S 15 %

g 10 %

pre-194 6 1946 - 1951 - 1956 - 1961 - 1966 - 1971 - 1976 - 1981 - 1986 - 195 0 195 5 196 0 196 5 197 0 197 5 198 0 198 5 199 0 199 1 - 199 6 - 200 1 - 199 5 200 0 200 5 

## Vintag e Thes e datainclude coal- , gas- , an d oil-fire d unit s (including combustion turbines) . Vintag e and emission s dat aar e fromEPA . Capacit y an dgeneratio n dat aar

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### Generatio n a 

### SQ 2 D 

### NO x 25 % T



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### 100 %

W D 80 %



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### a

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Unit s tha t enter du e t o age .



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•T J P

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# Emission s an d Emissio n Rates , 1990-202 0 AE09 9 Referenc e versu s Potentia l PM2. 5 16.0 0 4.0 0

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» 8.0 0

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### S 

## s " 3

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