### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1**  **UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE**  **+ + + + + COMMERCIAL HVAC, WATER HEATING AND**  **REFRIGERATION EQUIPMENT CERTIFICATION WORKING GROUP MEETING** 

**+ + + + + THURSDAY**  **SEPTEMBER 12, 2013 + + + + +**  **The Working Group met in the Forrestal Building, Room GH-019, 1000**  **Independence Avenue, SW, Washington, D.C., at 8:30 a.m., Neil Eisner, Facilitator,**  **presiding. PRESENT**  **NEIL EISNER, Facilitator CHARLES ADAMS, A.O. SMITH**  **KARIM AMRANE, AHRI VIKTOR ANDERSON, Structural Concepts**  **TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice JEFF BAUMAN, National Refrigeration and Air**  **Conditioning MARY DANE, Traulsen**  **PAUL DOPPEL, Mitsubishi Electric BRIAN FERRIOL, Underwriters Laboratories**  **MARK FLY, AAON GEOFFREY HALLEY, ABMA**  **CHARLES HON, True Manufacturing JILL HOOTMAN, Trane**  **JOHN HURST, Lennox**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2**  **TOM JOHNSON, Daikin McQuay JEFF KLEISS, Lochinvar**  **MICHAEL KOJAK, Underwriters Laboratories KAREN MEYERS, Rheem Manufacturing**  **PETE MOLVIE, Cleaver-Brooks MASSOUD NESHAN, Southern CaseArts**  **HARVEY SACHS, ACEEE JOE SANDERS, Traulsen** * **RON SHEBIK, Hussmann*** **FRANK STANONIK, AHRI PHILLIP STEPHENS, HTP, Inc.**  **RUSTY THARP, Goodman Manufacturing**

**BILL TRITSIS, AHRI**

**ALSO PRESENT**

**ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, U.S. Department of Energy LAURA BARHYDT, U.S. Department of Energy**  **JOHN CYMBALSKY, U.S. Department of Energy**

**JEREMIAH FREEMAN MICHAEL RIVEST, Navigant** 

***Present via teleconference**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3** 

**TABLE OF CONTENTS**

**General Discussion Testing Programs 5**

**General Discussion on Motors 63**

**General Discussion on Verification and Certification 67** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  

### 2 **8:33 a.m.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: All right, everybody.** 

### 4 **Our focus should be what's up on this screen.** 

### 5 **I remind you again, everybody has got to speak** 

### 6 **in their playroom voice, get that voice up** 

### 7 **there so that it can be heard.** 

### 8 **We wanted to go back over the** 

### 9 **slides this morning that we were looking at** 

### 10 **last night because Karen was a key player and** 

### 11 **she had to leave a little early, so she's had** 

### 12 **a chance, I think, to look at the screen.** 

### 13 **Karen, do you have any comments** 

### 14 **you want to start off with?** 

### 15 **MS. MEYERS: Well, I guess I'd** 

### 16 **rather address my comments to the breakout** 

### 17 **group. I don't think this is exactly what we** 

### 18 **agreed to.** 

### 19 **MR. KLEISS: Yes, we left** 

### 20 **everything there that was struck out, because** 

### 21 **I didn't want anything taken away until you** 

### 22 **got a chance to look at it.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5**  **1 MS. MEYERS: So are we supporting**  

### 2 **a manufacturer-funded verification testing** 

### 3 **program?** 

### 4 **MR. DOPPEL: That sentence was** 

### 5 **removed.** 

### 6 **MS. MEYERS: That was, I thought,** 

### 7 **a key agreement that we had in our breakout** 

### 8 **group. Have we taken that out?** 

### 9 **MR. DOPPEL: The last statement** 

### 10 **you made before you left was a lot different** 

### 11 **from what we talked about in the breakout** 

### 12 **session. So we took from that that -** 

### 13 **MS. MEYERS: I'm not sure I agree** 

### 14 **with that. Maybe you misinterpreted what I** 

### 15 **said. I certainly didn't intend to say** 

### 16 **anything different than what was in the** 

### 17 **breakout session. I think I was commenting** 

### 18 **more to Neil on the whole group that -- I** 

### 19 **think I have to disagree with you.** 

### 20 **Maybe we can go back and reread it** 

### 21 **and you can point out to me why you think I** 

### 22 **said it with a contrast to my earlier**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1 statements. I don't think I changed my**  

### 2 **position yesterday. I thought the group had** 

### 3 **come up and we were all in agreement. This** 

### 4 **looks like a significant change.** 

### 5 **I'm willing to talk about it with** 

### 6 **the group, but I just really don't know that** 

### 7 **I want to accept these changes until this** 

### 8 **group has had a chance to convene and we can** 

### 9 **kind of go through this and --** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: Do you want to take a** 

### 11 **break now?** 

### 12 **MS. MEYERS: I think it would be** 

### 13 **important. I mean maybe there's something I'm** 

### 14 **missing here, but it's a significant change** 

### 15 **from what we agreed to in our breakout** 

### 16 **session.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: Why don't you guys** 

### 18 **take five or ten minutes and go outside and** 

### 19 **talk about this.** 

### 20 **(Whereupon, the above-entitled** 

### 21 **matter went off the record at 8:36 a.m. and** 

### 22 **resumed at 9:13 a.m.)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 MR. EISNER: All right. Somebody**  

### 2 **want to report?** 

### 3 **MS. MEYERS: We've all agreed to** 

### 4 **what's on the screen.** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: It says --** 

### 6 **MR. SACHS: Phil, your playground** 

### 7 **voice, please. Sorry, can't hear you.** 

### 8 **MR. STEPHENS: Sorry. We** 

### 9 **discussed it and we all agreed on the wording** 

### 10 **we have on the screen. We think this really** 

### 11 **conveys the intent we had yesterday in a much** 

### 12 **more pleasant choice of words.** 

### 13 **(Laughter.)** 

### 14 **(Pause.)** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: Okay, any comments,** 

### 16 **questions?** 

### 17 **I believe we were at the point** 

### 18 **yesterday where everybody agreed on other** 

### 19 **sections. Does anybody want to reexamine it** 

### 20 **or should we take a vote on the whole package?** 

### 21 **MR. STEPHENS: I think we still** 

### 22 **had a question as to the text and read.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1 MR. EISNER: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. DOPPEL: I thought we had** 

### 3 **stricken through that last night?** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: We did and then** 

### 5 **there was some discussion as to whether or not** 

### 6 **we should leave it because I think it was** 

### 7 **Frank pointed out that they're all going to** 

### 8 **hear about it anyway, so --** 

### 9 **MR. STANONIK: Yes, Frank** 

### 10 **Stanonik, AHRI. I was actually arguing you** 

### 11 **didn't need it because it was going to come** 

### 12 **up.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: Oh, it was going to** 

### 14 **come up anyway, okay. I got that backwards,** 

### 15 **sorry.** 

### 16 **MR. DOPPEL: I think that was the** 

### 17 **kind of agreement that didn't need to be up** 

### 18 **there.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: Does anybody object** 

### 20 **to deleting it?** 

### 21 **MR. KLEISS: I think the statement** 

### 22 **does have value, but if I'm the only one --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1 MR. EISNER: Does anyone else --**  

### 2 **MS. HOOTMAN: If it stays up** 

### 3 **there, I have to vote no.** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: If it stays on the** 

### 5 **screen.** 

### 6 **MS. HOOTMAN: If it stays on** 

### 7 **there.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: Okay, so I'm getting** 

### 9 **a sense that there are no objections? If** 

### 10 **anybody objects to my thought?** 

### 11 **MS. MEYERS: I actually kind of** 

### 12 **liked the statement. I think it needs to be -** 

### 13 **-** 

### 14 **MR. HURST: Can you soften the** 

### 15 **statement by saying that there's not** 

### 16 **agreement. I think that maybe there's some** 

### 17 **question. Would that resolve your issue,** 

### 18 **Jill, if you said there's a question regarding** 

### 19 **the DOE's authority?** 

### 20 **MS. HOOTMAN: They do not want me** 

### 21 **to vote.** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: Laura promised**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 yesterday that we would get the statutory**  

### 2 **language up on the screen. Would it help to** 

### 3 **look at that now in this context?** 

### 4 **MR. DOPPEL: I thought we were** 

### 5 **going to get it sent to us.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Sorry, I forgot last** 

### 7 **time.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: I can discipline her** 

### 9 **if you want.** 

### 10 **(Laughter.)** 

### 11 **MR. DOPPEL: I think the point we** 

### 12 **read yesterday was that we haven't had time to** 

### 13 **study that, so it's not like -- so it's like** 

### 14 **an indeterminate phase so I don't think that** 

### 15 **has any value at this point.** 

### 16 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim at** 

### 17 **AHRI. I don't think we can debate the** 

### 18 **language, the legal language.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: I agree. I was just** 

### 20 **asking whether it would help in terms of** 

### 21 **whether we want to leave this in. Laura can** 

### 22 **email it to everybody and maybe we can talk**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 about it later after you've had a chance to**  

### 2 **look at it carefully.** 

### 3 **MR. STANONIK: What would be the** 

### 4 **purpose of having this formal statement?** 

### 5 **Again, and Ashley, I'll ask you, I mean in** 

### 6 **your opinion, do you think it's possible that** 

### 7 **the ASRAC Committee is going to discuss** 

### 8 **everything that this working group has been** 

### 9 **doing including the meeting yesterday and that** 

### 10 **not come up?** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It very well could** 

### 12 **come up. It's open to the public. I would** 

### 13 **say if the committee has a definitive position** 

### 14 **on -- if there are questions, you should put** 

### 15 **it on the sheet. That ensures that it will at** 

### 16 **least be translated to ASRAC as the** 

### 17 **committee's position.** 

### 18 **That being said, you know, public** 

### 19 **participants, committee participants, some** 

### 20 **media listening in right now, I'm on the** 

### 21 **committee, things will come up that are not on** 

### 22 **this sheet. But they don't represent the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 consensus or some type of vote of the**  

### 2 **committee as a whole.** 

### 3 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 4 **AHRI. I guess that's my point. This is not** 

### 5 **a position. This is just an issue that came** 

### 6 **up yesterday that is now a question.** 

### 7 **MR. ADAMS: Charlie Adams. A.O.** 

### 8 **Smith. Would it be helpful to change the** 

### 9 **phrasing to say there is an open question on** 

### 10 **whether DOE -- that is the position I hear in** 

### 11 **the room. That would be an accurate** 

### 12 **reflection --** 

### 13 **MS. MEYERS: That's good. I can** 

### 14 **go with that.** 

### 15 **Yes, Harvey?** 

### 16 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs,** 

### 17 **ACEEE. I guess it puts me in an awkward** 

### 18 **position. If that language is left, at best,** 

### 19 **I will have to abstain because I don't believe** 

### 20 **that the advocacy community believes that** 

### 21 **there's doubt about the authority.** 

### 22 **MS. MEYERS: Can we say there's an**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 open question among manufacturers?**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: I hear you and I think** 

### 3 **the language is improvement. I'm just -- I** 

### 4 **certainly don't want it to be in the form of** 

### 5 **a recommendation. As an information item,** 

### 6 **fine. I'm also curious that Jill apparently** 

### 7 **had a substantive problem with this and I wish** 

### 8 **she'd repeat yesterday's or explain where she** 

### 9 **is now.** 

### 10 **MS. HOOTMAN: Our lawyers just did** 

### 11 **not want me to lock ourselves into not further** 

### 12 **suit ever, in the future, not on this and not** 

### 13 **that I'm here not in good faith and all of** 

### 14 **that. They just didn't want me to lock myself** 

### 15 **in or lock in our company.** 

### 16 **MR. SACHS: So if the language** 

### 17 **that Charlie has suggested is theirs, an** 

### 18 **information item rather than a recommendation,** 

### 19 **is that acceptable?** 

### 20 **MS. HOOTMAN: If it is not a** 

### 21 **recommendation then --** 

### 22 **MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 Again, to me that statement is just not -- it**  

### 2 **just does not accurately reflect what the** 

### 3 **situation is because I think that everyone --** 

### 4 **we're all talking about developing program** 

### 5 **guidelines for a volunteer organization that** 

### 6 **wants to have a verification program. And for** 

### 7 **DOE to require people to participate in the** 

### 8 **verification program, I don't think is an** 

### 9 **issue. The funding part of it, again, those** 

### 10 **of us who are currently in a voluntary program** 

### 11 **are already paying, so the paying part is not** 

### 12 **an issue. What is being required is that** 

### 13 **those who are not in the voluntary program** 

### 14 **would have to be part of one and have to pay** 

### 15 **to be whatever it is to participate in that** 

### 16 **voluntary program.** 

### 17 **That's really what the issue is.** 

### 18 **If you're already in a voluntary program, this** 

### 19 **whole issue doesn't matter because everything** 

### 20 **we're setting up is just for DOE to require** 

### 21 **those who are not participating to** 

### 22 **participate. So it's a good thing for us who**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 are already paying. It levels the playing**  

### 2 **field.** 

### 3 **MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman** 

### 4 **from National. I just got to throw into it.** 

### 5 **I understand that people in the program you** 

### 6 **have less worries, I'll say, but -- he** 

### 7 **wouldn't do it, but what if Karim decides next** 

### 8 **year his program is going to cost twice as** 

### 9 **much as it does this year? You can decide if** 

### 10 **you're going to drop out of that program. If** 

### 11 **you're in it today, which is fine -- I** 

### 12 **understand, we have companies that are in** 

### 13 **that. That's my concern is locking into** 

### 14 **something that's --** 

### 15 **MR. DOPPEL: It's not going to say** 

### 16 **lock into AHRI. It says a program. And** 

### 17 **another program could be initiated.** 

### 18 **MR. BAUMAN: People in the program** 

### 19 **in the future would have the option of** 

### 20 **dropping out --** 

### 21 **MR. DOPPEL: They would drop out** 

### 22 **of one program and then go into another.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 MR. BAUMAN: No, I'm saying you**  

### 2 **decide you don't want to use it, the voluntary** 

### 3 **program, anymore. You're not going to have** 

### 4 **that option under this -** 

### 5 **MR. DOPPEL: But what is driving** 

### 6 **this is if you are listed on the DOE website,** 

### 7 **the CCMS, all of us have come to agreement** 

### 8 **that if you're on that list, you should be --** 

### 9 **those ratings should be verified.** 

### 10 **MR. BAUMAN: Absolutely.** 

### 11 **MR. DOPPEL: And what we're** 

### 12 **getting to is they should be verified through** 

### 13 **a program. So the whole issue can DOE require** 

### 14 **people to participate in a program? If you** 

### 15 **participate in a program, it's going to cost** 

### 16 **money, because testing is not free, but it's** 

### 17 **not going to be DOE telling you to be in --** 

### 18 **you're in a voluntary program, but you have to** 

### 19 **be in a program. If you can find a program** 

### 20 **that is the Harvey Sachs generosity** 

### 21 **verification program, and testing is free,** 

### 22 **then that's a good thing. But I don't think**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 you'll find that.**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: I'm not sure where** 

### 3 **you're going with this. If DOE were to simply** 

### 4 **to write a rule that said here are the** 

### 5 **criteria for a testing program. If you engage** 

### 6 **in an organization that meets this criteria,** 

### 7 **and let's assume AHRI does, then when AHRI** 

### 8 **does a test and verifies it we will put it on** 

### 9 **List A. List B will simply be products that** 

### 10 **have been certified. They have not gone** 

### 11 **through any verification program because DOE** 

### 12 **doesn't require a verification program. They** 

### 13 **just say we'll put you on List A if you go** 

### 14 **through a qualified program. Is that what** 

### 15 **you're talking about? Is that what you mean?** 

### 16 **MR. DOPPEL: No, no.** 

### 17 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 18 **MS. MEYERS: So I think what we're** 

### 19 **saying is really what the boiler and water** 

### 20 **heater group put in their first sentence. So** 

### 21 **we do support specific verification** 

### 22 **requirements for companies not participating**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 in a voluntary recognized program. Right? Do**  

### 2 **you agree with that?** 

### 3 **MR. DOPPEL: Right.** 

### 4 **MR. HON: The next sentence is** 

### 5 **purely an editorial comment.** 

### 6 **MS. MEYERS: But it's an important** 

### 7 **one for our group.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: Again, what I'm not** 

### 9 **suggesting is not that anybody be required to** 

### 10 **do anything. It's simply DOE will break its** 

### 11 **webpage up into two pages. To get on the A** 

### 12 **List, you have to meet the criteria DOE sets** 

### 13 **out for a verification program. And it's not** 

### 14 **requiring anybody to be in that program, but** 

### 15 **if you want to be on the A List, you have to** 

### 16 **go through one of those programs. I thought** 

### 17 **that's where you were going because we're** 

### 18 **talking about whether they had the legal** 

### 19 **authority to require you to have verification** 

### 20 **testing.** 

### 21 **MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie** 

### 22 **with Cleaver-Brooks. It's more than just**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 whether DOE has the legal authority to require**  

### 2 **it. It's whether there are laboratories out** 

### 3 **there that can actually fulfill verification -** 

### 4 **- any verification program for larger boilers.** 

### 5 **They just don't exist.** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: I understand that** 

### 7 **might be a very separate issue.** 

### 8 **MR. MOLVIE: I'm just bringing it** 

### 9 **up because I don't want people to forget.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: And maybe that's** 

### 11 **listed, boilers which can't be subject to any** 

### 12 **kind of a program.** 

### 13 **MR. DOPPEL: Right, and that's why** 

### 14 **we've broken it up into different groups** 

### 15 **because each group has their issues, HVAC is** 

### 16 **a lot simpler at this point. CRE, dealing** 

### 17 **with their situation.** 

### 18 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,** 

### 19 **Lochinvar. To the question of authority, the** 

### 20 **statement that's on the screen currently, in** 

### 21 **discussions yesterday, there were two lawyers** 

### 22 **in the room that are versed on this subject,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 one from AHRI and a lawyer from DOE. And as**  

### 2 **I heard it -** 

### 3 **MR. THARP: Don't forget Tim.** 

### 4 **(Laughter.)** 

### 5 **MR. KLEISS: Okay, there were more** 

### 6 **lawyers than I thought.** 

### 7 **(Laughter.)** 

### 8 **MR. KLEISS: In the dialogue** 

### 9 **between the two of them, verbal and nonverbal,** 

### 10 **what I heard and saw yesterday was an** 

### 11 **agreement that there were two separate** 

### 12 **opinions on this that they did or they did not** 

### 13 **and that there was a pre-existing law or** 

### 14 **supporting cases that either of them could** 

### 15 **use. He said that I have cases I could use to** 

### 16 **support this and I saw Laura and he said Laura** 

### 17 **would have cases that she could cite to** 

### 18 **support their authority to do this and she was** 

### 19 **nodding vigorously.** 

### 20 **(Laughter.)** 

### 21 **MR. KLEISS: So there is an open** 

### 22 **question about whether or not DOE has that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 authority. There were lawyers in the room**  

### 2 **that were supporting the two different** 

### 3 **opinions and said that they had information to** 

### 4 **support that. I believe that the statement on** 

### 5 **the screen is reflecting exactly what we heard** 

### 6 **from expert testimony in this meeting.** 

### 7 **(Laughter.)** 

### 8 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. My** 

### 9 **colleague, Mr. Ballo, Esquire, is shy.** 

### 10 **(Laughter.)** 

### 11 **MR. SACHS: He really explicitly** 

### 12 **stated his opinion that there is authority and** 

### 13 **if this were an appeals court rather than** 

### 14 **expert witnesses, the vote would be 2 to 1.** 

### 15 **(Laughter.)** 

### 16 **MR. SACHS: I'm pulling your chain** 

### 17 **a bit, but I have no problems with leaving it** 

### 18 **if it's acceptable to everyone else.** 

### 19 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I ask more of** 

### 20 **a fundamental question? This document, is** 

### 21 **this supposed to represent -- this is for you.** 

### 22 **So is this supposed to represent the opinion**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 of the entire working group or is this**  

### 2 **supposed to represent the positions of the** 

### 3 **breakout groups? Because I think it matters,** 

### 4 **especially -- it matters substantially to the** 

### 5 **Department.** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: Where it is located** 

### 7 **now, it's supposed to be the whole working** 

### 8 **group.** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not going** 

### 10 **to fly.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: That's why it was** 

### 12 **pulled out, I thought. So it reflected -** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: Oh, just the legal** 

### 14 **authority.** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: What about the** 

### 16 **working group sections, is that just the** 

### 17 **breakout sections? So that's not the** 

### 18 **Department's position, that's not the working** 

### 19 **group's position.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: Well, again, it's not** 

### 21 **clear to the reader of this whether the** 

### 22 **Government was in any of those working group**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 sessions.**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I was going to be** 

### 3 **reading it and make clear that the Government** 

### 4 **was not.** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: Okay.** 

### 6 **MR. HON: I will not vote for this** 

### 7 **unless it spells out that these are three** 

### 8 **separate groups that did not review each** 

### 9 **other's work.** 

### 10 **MS. ARMSTRONG: And the Department** 

### 11 **did not. I think it should say that.** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: You all were in the** 

### 13 **groups. I mean, I think these represent the** 

### 14 **views of those manufacturers in those areas.** 

### 15 **MR. STEPHENS: Some of those** 

### 16 **manufacturers.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: Right, because some** 

### 18 **of you overlap and weren't able to be --** 

### 19 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim from** 

### 20 **AHRI. This is how the ground rules were** 

### 21 **established at the beginning that we will be** 

### 22 **then coming back to ASRAC with I guess with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 recommendations on separate working groups**  

### 2 **instead of the whole group?** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: No, we're not** 

### 4 **finished. We've had three working groups come** 

### 5 **back and report their positions as subgroups** 

### 6 **and what I would envision is we were all going** 

### 7 **to be discussing each of those three and** 

### 8 **reaching agreement. We may say no, we can't** 

### 9 **agree with what you want to do in this** 

### 10 **subgroup, but we do agree with this other** 

### 11 **thing here. If you can accept this language,** 

### 12 **we can agree to that part.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: So I guess what I** 

### 14 **had understood yesterday was that this section** 

### 15 **isn't going to be handed out, published, or** 

### 16 **anything, that it has some talking points that** 

### 17 **-- so that we have a summary of where the** 

### 18 **groups are, but that it's not a -- it's not** 

### 19 **going to be commemorated as this is our** 

### 20 **position. It is a status update of where** 

### 21 **things currently stand for manufacturers in** 

### 22 **three different groups. Is that --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 MR. EISNER: Yes. From my**  

### 2 **perspective, that's what I heard, that's what** 

### 3 **I understood. If the group agrees to it, we** 

### 4 **can say the subgroup reports that here's where** 

### 5 **they are. The question is still going to be** 

### 6 **resolved --** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: The legal authority.** 

### 8 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Sorry to get off** 

### 9 **track.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: We have very** 

### 11 **different opinions on that right now from what** 

### 12 **I'm hearing.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: And the legal** 

### 14 **authority, we would only be okay with it if it** 

### 15 **says explicitly that DOE believes it has the** 

### 16 **authority to require participation. However,** 

### 17 **other parties --** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: And somebody** 

### 19 **suggested it say some manufacturers or no** 

### 20 **manufacturers.** 

### 21 **MR. BALLO: Would it be more** 

### 22 **accurate to describe it as some manufacturers**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 wish to reserve the right to object to DOE's**  

### 2 **authority because it's not that they** 

### 3 **necessarily -- I get the sense it's not** 

### 4 **necessarily that you are convinced of that** 

### 5 **right now absolutely and forever, but if** 

### 6 **you're not happy with the outcome of this, you** 

### 7 **would potentially want to challenge DOE's** 

### 8 **authority.** 

### 9 **MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel from** 

### 10 **Mitsubishi. I think there's really two issues** 

### 11 **within this and one is I think that everyone** 

### 12 **agrees again that DOE has the authority to** 

### 13 **require participation in a program. The issue** 

### 14 **is who pays for it?** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: Right, that's the** 

### 16 **"manufacturer-funded."** 

### 17 **MR. DOPPEL: Yes, but see, that** 

### 18 **makes it look like we say you can't have a** 

### 19 **program. You can require us to participate in** 

### 20 **a program. The issue is who pays for it.** 

### 21 **That's the issue. It's not --** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: I thought you said**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 that part of the idea was that if you were in**  

### 2 **a program like AHRI's, then you're not** 

### 3 **required to participate in a different** 

### 4 **program, but that if you are not in a program** 

### 5 **like AHRI's, DOE would require you to** 

### 6 **participate in another program which we would** 

### 7 **have to have authority to require you to** 

### 8 **participate in another program in order to** 

### 9 **impose that requirement.** 

### 10 **So if there's a question in your** 

### 11 **mind as to whether or not we have the** 

### 12 **authority to require participation in a** 

### 13 **program, I mean it's not like you can say** 

### 14 **well, you have authority here and don't have** 

### 15 **authority there.** 

### 16 **MR. DOPPEL: But just like I was** 

### 17 **saying before, if you require participation in** 

### 18 **a verification program, there's going to be** 

### 19 **funding associated with it anyway.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: I'm not sure I** 

### 21 **understand.** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so I think I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 understand now. You're saying that if you**  

### 2 **participate in a program like AHRI's, DOE** 

### 3 **wouldn't require you to participate in another** 

### 4 **program, but this other program DOE would be** 

### 5 **requiring you to participate in would be a DOE** 

### 6 **paid for program?** 

### 7 **MR. DOPPEL: No, no.** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 9 **MR. DOPPEL: If you're in any kind** 

### 10 **of a program, I mean if I go to UL and say** 

### 11 **hey, I want to be in a program, but you have** 

### 12 **to pay for the testing, they're going to tell** 

### 13 **me to take a hike. Okay, so by the very** 

### 14 **nature of you saying you have to participate** 

### 15 **in a verification program implies that there** 

### 16 **are going to be costs associated with that.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: I'm with you there.** 

### 18 **MR. DOPPEL: It's there. Okay.** 

### 19 **So what I'm saying is this whole sentence** 

### 20 **doesn't make any sense because we're all** 

### 21 **saying everybody should be -- if you're going** 

### 22 **to be on the CCMS list, you should be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 verified. And it costs money to be verified.**  

### 2 **MS. MEYERS: Maybe we should say** 

### 3 **that.** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: But I thought that** 

### 5 **there were --** 

### 6 **MR. DOPPEL: Well, okay, if you're** 

### 7 **going to enter into the program, maybe you** 

### 8 **haven't had your products verified yet. But** 

### 9 **you're still required to list them. See,** 

### 10 **there's a sequencing there. So they may say** 

### 11 **I'm certifying my products, but I'm not** 

### 12 **verified yet.** 

### 13 **MS. MEYERS: So is DOE required to** 

### 14 **publish all ratings, whether they're verified** 

### 15 **or not? You didn't use to, so -- I mean the** 

### 16 **question is we still go back to this website** 

### 17 **that's giving us all heartburn. So could it** 

### 18 **be -- could the Department take a position** 

### 19 **that if you want to be on the CCMs website,** 

### 20 **you have to have verified ratings.** 

### 21 **MR. BALLO: I don't think the** 

### 22 **Department can take that position. I'm**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1 totally happy to have two separate databases**  

### 2 **if that makes you all comfortable.** 

### 3 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 4 **MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I** 

### 5 **have a question. If there's a verification** 

### 6 **program required, then there's no two separate** 

### 7 **lists because everybody is verified.** 

### 8 **MR. DOPPEL: Well, again, it's the** 

### 9 **sequencing of that. Again, to put your** 

### 10 **products into commerce, you have to be on the** 

### 11 **list.** 

### 12 **MR. HON: That's correct.** 

### 13 **MR. DOPPEL: You have to certify.** 

### 14 **So DOE needs to decide whether you can be on** 

### 15 **that certified list without being verified.** 

### 16 **MR. HON: That's what we're** 

### 17 **discussing right now.** 

### 18 **MS. HOOTMAN: And if the** 

### 19 **requirements of each of those verification** 

### 20 **programs, if they're uniquely different and** 

### 21 **requiring over and above testing for DOE, then** 

### 22 **it's actually saying you're going to spend for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 your own verification program and in addition.**  

### 2 **Because if the requirements of the DOE** 

### 3 **verification is different, it could require** 

### 4 **over and above in addition.** 

### 5 **MR. STANONIK: If you agree with** 

### 6 **what Paul just said, you better pull back your** 

### 7 **recommendation on certification. You just** 

### 8 **reopened the whole certification regulation** 

### 9 **because --** 

### 10 **MS. HOOTMAN: Certification?** 

### 11 **MR. STANONIK: The requirements** 

### 12 **are, you want to change it, you can talk to** 

### 13 **these people. The requirements are you have** 

### 14 **to certify your product before it can be** 

### 15 **introduced in commerce. It is your** 

### 16 **responsibility as a manufacturer to have** 

### 17 **testing done to determine that rating and that** 

### 18 **can be done anywhere, all right? And once you** 

### 19 **do that and once you give them that** 

### 20 **certification report, it goes on the list. It** 

### 21 **is certified.** 

### 22 **Now if you're saying it isn't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 certified, it's verified, you've just reopened**  

### 2 **the certification -** 

### 3 **MR. DOPPEL: That's not --** 

### 4 **MR. STANONIK: That's what you** 

### 5 **said. Yes, it was.** 

### 6 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: Let's speak one at a** 

### 8 **time. Have pity on the court reporter.** 

### 9 **(Laughter.)** 

### 10 **MR. DOPPEL: That's the B List.** 

### 11 **MR. STANONIK: You just said list.** 

### 12 **MR. DOPPEL: It's the B List.** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: Let's see if we have** 

### 14 **agreement. The agreement is you don't get on** 

### 15 **the list until you're certified. Can DOE have** 

### 16 **two lists of certified products, those that** 

### 17 **are verified independently and those that are** 

### 18 **not?** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: Only if we have a** 

### 20 **DOE-approved verification program.** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: And that can be a** 

### 22 **voluntary thing. DOE can say if you are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 certified by a verified -- by a program that**  

### 2 **meets the following standards, we can put you** 

### 3 **on a separate list to say you were certified** 

### 4 **and verified.** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, we could do** 

### 6 **that.** 

### 7 **MR. THARP: And then we'll let the** 

### 8 **market drive everybody to be on the A List.** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: And I'm saying yes,** 

### 10 **we could do that legally. We have not made a** 

### 11 **policy decision on that.** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: Now does anybody** 

### 13 **question the legal authority to do that** 

### 14 **because they're not requiring anybody to pay** 

### 15 **for anything?** 

### 16 **MR. HON: I have a question.** 

### 17 **We're also discussing mandatory verification.** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: Pull back. Pull** 

### 19 **back. I'm just trying to clarify what there** 

### 20 **is agreement to. Do we have agreement with** 

### 21 **everybody in the room that DOE could say if** 

### 22 **you voluntarily get verification through a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1 program that meets our standards that are set**  

### 2 **out here, we will put you on a separate list** 

### 3 **saying you've been certified and verified.** 

### 4 **You don't have to, but you won't get from the** 

### 5 **certified list to the certified and verified** 

### 6 **list without doing it. All voluntary, nobody** 

### 7 **has to incur any additional cost.** 

### 8 **MS. DANE: Would that eliminate** 

### 9 **the verification on the back side?** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: I'm not sure what you** 

### 11 **mean back side?** 

### 12 **MS. DANE: Well, if you belong to** 

### 13 **it, my question is where does the verification** 

### 14 **come in? I thought we had already closed out** 

### 15 **certification.** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: We closed out** 

### 17 **certification. Nothing changes. You still** 

### 18 **get on the certified list. If you want to get** 

### 19 **on the verified list, you have to go through** 

### 20 **a program that meets the standards that we** 

### 21 **would all agree to in this room.** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: And Mary, we're not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 agreeing to this as a policy matter. We're**  

### 2 **agreeing as to whether or not DOE could** 

### 3 **legally do this.** 

### 4 **MS. DANE: If we're voting on** 

### 5 **whether you could legally do it or not.** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: And we're not --** 

### 7 **we're not eliminating the possibility that we** 

### 8 **will require it of this group or recommend** 

### 9 **requiring verification for everyone and then** 

### 10 **the next issue would be who pays for that** 

### 11 **verification? I'm not saying we couldn't go** 

### 12 **that way, I'm just trying to figure out where** 

### 13 **there is consensus as to an approach.** 

### 14 **So does anybody object to the** 

### 15 **separate listing through use of voluntary** 

### 16 **programs meeting DOE standards?** 

### 17 **MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I** 

### 18 **do object to that because we have customers** 

### 19 **who can't hardly figure out one list much less** 

### 20 **two lists. I don't know how else to say that.** 

### 21 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 22 **MS. HOOTMAN: Charlie, I don't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 disagree. We have customers who can't spell**  

### 2 **DOE.** 

### 3 **(Laughter.)** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: Remember, there's a** 

### 5 **court reporter taking all of this down.** 

### 6 **(Laughter.)** 

### 7 **MR. HON: The problem is -- I just** 

### 8 **disagree with it because any time you have two** 

### 9 **separate lists, somebody will go in and** 

### 10 **they'll look at the list and say I looked at** 

### 11 **this list and you weren't on it. And it could** 

### 12 **be the A List. They looked at the B List and** 

### 13 **we weren't on it, so therefore they wouldn't** 

### 14 **buy from us. And in a market which is driven** 

### 15 **quite often by energy efficiency which I live** 

### 16 **in, that can be a real problem.** 

### 17 **I will object to any double list,** 

### 18 **unless we go through a process where there's** 

### 19 **a verification requirement involved so that** 

### 20 **everyone will be a verified -- eventually move** 

### 21 **everything over to the verified list.** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: Again, my**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 understanding of what we're talking about is**  

### 2 **just whether or not we have authority to --** 

### 3 **whether or not everybody agrees that there's** 

### 4 **authority for it, not agreeing to that** 

### 5 **approach. I would be --** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: You may have policy** 

### 7 **reasons for why you oppose it. As a legal** 

### 8 **matter, the question is do you see any problem** 

### 9 **with that?** 

### 10 **MR. HON: The DOE has to give** 

### 11 **their opinion of that. That's their opinion.** 

### 12 **And if they believe they have the right to do** 

### 13 **that, they have a right to do that unless they** 

### 14 **decide otherwise. I'm not going to dispute** 

### 15 **their interpretation on this one. But I have** 

### 16 **a basic objection to a double list for** 

### 17 **different reasons.** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: Understood.** 

### 19 **MS. DANE: And I would say no for** 

### 20 **the same reason, plus I'd like to see the** 

### 21 **language before I vote whether or not --** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: We're just trying to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1 clarify where people are right now. We're not**  

### 2 **trying to vote on a recommendation.** 

### 3 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 4 **MS. DANE: I would feel better.** 

### 5 **I'm very visual.** 

### 6 **MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel,** 

### 7 **Mitsubishi. There's so many other little** 

### 8 **things that are associated with this that --** 

### 9 **I mean this just muddles everything and if** 

### 10 **it's just dropped, then we'll have all the** 

### 11 **groups are wanting to do what their** 

### 12 **verification programs look like and then we** 

### 13 **can get back together and piece together what** 

### 14 **all that means. But a lot of the stuff that** 

### 15 **we're talking about is how to participate in** 

### 16 **a verification program which has nothing to do** 

### 17 **with what this statement says which is DOE** 

### 18 **having authority. So again this just muddles** 

### 19 **everything and should be gone.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: You're saying the** 

### 21 **statement on legal authority muddles it.** 

### 22 **MR. DOPPEL: Yes, this should be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1 gone.**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: Other thoughts?** 

### 3 **MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman** 

### 4 **from National. I think it goes back to** 

### 5 **Ashley's point, is this something that we want** 

### 6 **ASRAC to know that I'll say the working group** 

### 7 **has been struggling with or has had questions** 

### 8 **about and what she said if we think that's an** 

### 9 **important issue to notify them about, we'll** 

### 10 **call it that, then we should -- there should** 

### 11 **be a statement in here included on that. I** 

### 12 **agree with the concern, Paul, but we had** 

### 13 **enough debate about this. I think it should** 

### 14 **somehow, be noted through the report back to** 

### 15 **ASRAC that this group has been having some** 

### 16 **struggle with this issue.** 

### 17 **MR. DOPPEL: But again, I think** 

### 18 **from when we walked in this morning to where** 

### 19 **we are now, we're seeing this whole issue in** 

### 20 **a different light, hopefully. And so it's** 

### 21 **what was put on the board yesterday is not** 

### 22 **really relevant to where our discussion is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1 today.**  

### 2 **MR. BAUMAN: Is everybody in here** 

### 3 **agreed that DOE has the authority to make** 

### 4 **manufacturers pay for a program? And I'm** 

### 5 **seeing heads going no, which is fine, but that** 

### 6 **to me is what we're struggling with.** 

### 7 **MR. DOPPEL: But that's not really** 

### 8 **the issue. If you are required to be in a** 

### 9 **program, you're going to pay for it anyway.** 

### 10 **MR. BAUMAN: No, what we started** 

### 11 **out with --** 

### 12 **MR. DOPPEL: You cannot be in a** 

### 13 **verification program and not pay for it.** 

### 14 **MR. BAUMAN: Okay, again it goes** 

### 15 **back to the idea of whether you need it.** 

### 16 **Every product and one of the things we talked** 

### 17 **about does every product category need a** 

### 18 **verification program? If these guys say --** 

### 19 **MR. DOPPEL: That's for your group** 

### 20 **to decide.** 

### 21 **MR. BAUMAN: Okay.** 

### 22 **MR. DOPPEL: You guys have to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1 decide what to do on that, on what**  

### 2 **verification means for your group.** 

### 3 **MR. BAUMAN: Understood. And** 

### 4 **that's what I'm trying to leave that open for** 

### 5 **the groups to decide about. I'm not -- I'll** 

### 6 **drop it. I understand your objection. I** 

### 7 **think it's -- but I don't think the idea of** 

### 8 **just dropping this off of our list of concerns** 

### 9 **or items back to ASRAC is a good move. But I** 

### 10 **will abstain or vote no if we take it off.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: Frank, did you want** 

### 12 **to -** 

### 13 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 14 **AHRI. Again, I thought you're discussing** 

### 15 **whether or not some statement of this nature** 

### 16 **would be written down and I guess verbally** 

### 17 **presented or something to ASRAC. And it keeps** 

### 18 **quickly evolving into discussions of what** 

### 19 **programs might be or what programs might** 

### 20 **require. If you really think something there,** 

### 21 **I would suggest first of all saying a question** 

### 22 **was raised whether DOE has authority to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1 require participation in manufacturer-funded**  

### 2 **verification programs. That is a statement of** 

### 3 **fact. It was raised, okay?** 

### 4 **It could then say the working** 

### 5 **group recognizes it cannot answer that** 

### 6 **question and wishes to continue to pursue its** 

### 7 **negotiations on verification. Have I said** 

### 8 **anything untrue?** 

### 9 **MR. EISNER: Comments?** 

### 10 **MS. MEYERS: Can you say that one** 

### 11 **more time, Frank?** 

### 12 **MR. STANONIK: A question was** 

### 13 **raised on whether DOE has authority to require** 

### 14 **participation in a manufacturer-funded** 

### 15 **verification -- and I would say testing** 

### 16 **program, but you can say whatever you want.** 

### 17 **We're the working group.** 

### 18 **The working group recognizes it** 

### 19 **cannot answer that question. And therefore** 

### 20 **wishes to continue its negotiations on a** 

### 21 **verification program, verification regulation,** 

### 22 **whichever is the way.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1 MR. EISNER: And Laura, you want**  

### 2 **to add to that, the sentence that you actually** 

### 3 **raised? DOE believes it does have authority.** 

### 4 **Does anybody have a problem with** 

### 5 **adding that?** 

### 6 **MR. STANONIK: They're all** 

### 7 **statements of fact.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: Does anybody have** 

### 9 **questions or comments about this?** 

### 10 **MR. KLEISS: How about the group** 

### 11 **recognizes that it cannot definitively answer** 

### 12 **this question.** 

### 13 **MR. STANONIK: There's only an** 

### 14 **answer, a definite answer. It doesn't matter.** 

### 15 **There's only an answer, yes or no.** 

### 16 **MR. KLEISS: That's fine.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: Other comments?** 

### 18 **MR. DOPPEL: I'm trying to** 

### 19 **formulate --** 

### 20 **MR. AMRANE: I think it's fine. I** 

### 21 **think we're reflecting what the discussion** 

### 22 **happened in this committee. It's just the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1 facts, that's it.**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: Paul?** 

### 3 **MR. DOPPEL: Okay, I think what** 

### 4 **we're saying also as far as continue working** 

### 5 **to develop a framework for a verification** 

### 6 **program that needs to be expanded a little bit** 

### 7 **more because -- to include something about** 

### 8 **what you were just saying about requiring** 

### 9 **manufacturers who are not in a program.** 

### 10 **MR. STANONIK: That's in all the** 

### 11 **subgroup --** 

### 12 **MR. DOPPEL: I know, but we need** 

### 13 **to have something in there that says that it's** 

### 14 **related to people who are not in a voluntary** 

### 15 **program.** 

### 16 **MS. BARHYDT: But I guess what** 

### 17 **conceptually doesn't make sense to me about** 

### 18 **that, Paul, is that at that point we're saying** 

### 19 **you have to be in this one or that one, so** 

### 20 **we're still requiring being in one. It's not** 

### 21 **really voluntary. It's just you're picking** 

### 22 **and choosing which one and so --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1 MS. HOOTMAN: Or to what extent**  

### 2 **you are in any event. There may be is a** 

### 3 **choice or levels, all of that kind of stuff.** 

### 4 **Maybe there is --** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: That makes sense,** 

### 6 **but I still, what I'm hearing and say is you** 

### 7 **have to be in one or the other in some way,** 

### 8 **that there's no opt out. MR. BAUMAN: If it's** 

### 9 **manufacturer-funded. DOE could make their own** 

### 10 **and fund their own verification program.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: We already knew** 

### 12 **that.** 

### 13 **MR. BAUMAN: To me, that still** 

### 14 **seems to be the question. We ask whether you** 

### 15 **can have a verification program and** 

### 16 **manufacturers don't fund. Yes, DOE can get** 

### 17 **this huge budget and pay for themselves. And** 

### 18 **there's some people we've heard in our** 

### 19 **industry that think that's how it should be** 

### 20 **handled. DOE pays for everything and that's -** 

### 21 **- we have different positions, but I think** 

### 22 **that's the question is who pays for the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1 verification program? Even if you can have**  

### 2 **one. I think if we have one, it's who pays** 

### 3 **for it? Can you afford the manufacturers to** 

### 4 **pay for it or not?** 

### 5 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 6 **AHRI. This item was -- the essence of this** 

### 7 **item is does this working group want to** 

### 8 **officially tell ASRAC about this issue that** 

### 9 **came up? All the other stuff you're talking** 

### 10 **about in terms of where each subgroup has** 

### 11 **gotten with their negotiations on** 

### 12 **verification, that's addressed in all that** 

### 13 **other information and you either need to** 

### 14 **decide do you want to tell ASRAC about this** 

### 15 **issue or not? And you keep going back to** 

### 16 **what's the verification program going to be?** 

### 17 **What is it going to require? What's the** 

### 18 **regulation? That's not -- this sentence is** 

### 19 **not about that. This sentence is are you** 

### 20 **going to tell ASRAC that we had this** 

### 21 **-- spent hours yesterday discussing whether or** 

### 22 **not the question of legal authority.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1 MS. MEYERS: I would agree with**  

### 2 **this sentence if you took out "but wishes to** 

### 3 **continue developing a framework for a** 

### 4 **verification program" because I think all the** 

### 5 **groups feel differently about that, and each** 

### 6 **group has discussed this in breakout, in their** 

### 7 **own breakout sessions and those views are** 

### 8 **reflected above.** 

### 9 **I don't know, you know --** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: Wait, Karen. So are** 

### 11 **you saying that your group is not certain that** 

### 12 **it wishes to --** 

### 13 **MS. MEYERS: That's not what I'm** 

### 14 **saying. I think that is what I said, but** 

### 15 **that's not what I meant.** 

### 16 **(Laughter.)** 

### 17 **MS. MEYERS: Let me see if I can** 

### 18 **rephrase that. I think you're right. I did** 

### 19 **say that, but I was thinking something else.** 

### 20 **MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel,** 

### 21 **Mitsubishi. I think if we said "but as** 

### 22 **indicated each group is continuing developing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1 a framework for verification program."**  

### 2 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 3 **HTP. I think we discussed yesterday and we** 

### 4 **realize that this conversation is outside the** 

### 5 **scope of the working group, the things we're** 

### 6 **supposed to be deciding. I think if the** 

### 7 **company you represent has these feelings** 

### 8 **strongly, it's up to you individually to make** 

### 9 **that decision to pursue whatever actions you** 

### 10 **deem necessary outside of this group, but this** 

### 11 **group has other things that we need to focus** 

### 12 **on.** 

### 13 **MR. KLEISS: What's your** 

### 14 **suggestion?** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: Phillip's suggestion** 

### 16 **we move on to motors.** 

### 17 **(Laughter.)** 

### 18 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 19 **MR. STEPHENS: I think the boilers** 

### 20 **and water heaters have other things we need to** 

### 21 **discuss also.** 

### 22 **MS. MEYERS: So I like the way**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1 it's currently been modified.**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: From my position, if** 

### 3 **more than two people believe that -- if** 

### 4 **multiple people believe that DOE has the legal** 

### 5 **authority to require a manufacturer-funded** 

### 6 **program, and another significant percentage of** 

### 7 **people believe DOE does not have that** 

### 8 **authority, I don't know what you would be** 

### 9 **negotiating. If DOE wants a funded program,** 

### 10 **a manufacturer-funded program, and others in** 

### 11 **the room want that, why would they continue in** 

### 12 **negotiations knowing that neither side has the** 

### 13 **votes to get approval to what they want?** 

### 14 **MR. THARP: Because we don't know** 

### 15 **what the verification program requirements** 

### 16 **are.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: If they don't have** 

### 18 **the legal authority, would you compromise to** 

### 19 **give them something that you don't think they** 

### 20 **have any legal authority over?** 

### 21 **MR. THARP: We're not questioning** 

### 22 **-- we would be negotiating a program that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1 would either be DOE mandated or DOE approved**  

### 2 **and I think the difference is in either case** 

### 3 **we would like the verification program to be** 

### 4 **the same.** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: But you're asking DOE** 

### 6 **to give up its complete position. If it** 

### 7 **believes that it has and should use the** 

### 8 **authority to have a manufacturer-funded** 

### 9 **program, they may do it in ways were they can** 

### 10 **give a little here and a little there, but it** 

### 11 **has to be a manufacturer-funded program. How** 

### 12 **can they effectively negotiate knowing they're** 

### 13 **not going to get anything of what they want?** 

### 14 **Don't we have to resolve the legal authority** 

### 15 **issue to everybody's satisfaction?** 

### 16 **MR. BAUMAN: I think the question** 

### 17 **is the funding. You can still develop a** 

### 18 **verification program.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: You can, but if DOE's** 

### 20 **going in position we can't do it if it's DOE** 

### 21 **funded, therefore, there's nothing for us to** 

### 22 **negotiate.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1 MR. ADAMS: Charlie Adams, A.O.**  

### 2 **Smith. I've not heard that said. Granted, I** 

### 3 **haven't been here the whole time, but DOE has** 

### 4 **a program today that they are funding** 

### 5 **themselves.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Not on the scale of** 

### 7 **what we've discussed.** 

### 8 **MR. ADAMS: But there is a program** 

### 9 **that is being funded.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: And the point is what** 

### 11 **is the reason for further negotiation if that** 

### 12 **is the most they can have.** 

### 13 **MR. BAUMAN: From CRE, I think** 

### 14 **we're in the position that DOE has the** 

### 15 **authority, but if somebody came back and** 

### 16 **successfully sued or somehow beat her, I think** 

### 17 **the part that we're proposing would be funded** 

### 18 **by the Department at a minimum cost to the** 

### 19 **Department. It could still be -- as it came** 

### 20 **to that, we don't think it would. But I think** 

### 21 **the recommendations that we're putting out,** 

### 22 **even if it ultimately after legal issues were**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1 worked out became funded by the Department, I**  

### 2 **think we'd still want to present to have the** 

### 3 **Department to consider that for them to run** 

### 4 **and that and fund themselves.** 

### 5 **MS. MEYERS: Would the Department** 

### 6 **be able to have an optional verification** 

### 7 **program for manufacturers to participate in?** 

### 8 **So if we went through this process of** 

### 9 **developing this framework, but it wouldn't be** 

### 10 **mandated, it would be optional.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, so that was** 

### 12 **Neil's question earlier and I said yes, we** 

### 13 **have authority to do that. Whether or not the** 

### 14 **Department would do that is a policy question** 

### 15 **we haven't discussed.** 

### 16 **MS. MEYERS: So I think that's why** 

### 17 **I continue to think these discussions are** 

### 18 **important because there's a lot -- we've** 

### 19 **gotten -- we've moved the ball down the line,** 

### 20 **so let's keep going and these are other -- you** 

### 21 **know, if it's definitively decided that DOE** 

### 22 **does have the authority, but the working group**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1 thinks that the requirements need to be**  

### 2 **optional, I think we could have that** 

### 3 **discussion. If it's definitively decided that** 

### 4 **DOE doesn't have the authority, then maybe the** 

### 5 **optional requirements can continue to be put** 

### 6 **into the statute which then goes back to this** 

### 7 **list, here's optional -- you know, it almost** 

### 8 **becomes a marketing tool. I don't know.** 

### 9 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. I** 

### 10 **don't think that DOE is going to be different** 

### 11 **if we determine DOE has the authority or not.** 

### 12 **I think they believe they have the authority,** 

### 13 **so I think it's going to move that way. I** 

### 14 **think the reason the question was asked** 

### 15 **yesterday is really to ask if DOE did its** 

### 16 **homework and look at it seriously because it's** 

### 17 **going to be eventually challenging in the** 

### 18 **future and that's all. I don't think we can** 

### 19 **answer the question. I think eventually if** 

### 20 **DOE moves ahead with it, we're going to find** 

### 21 **out if somebody sued DOE, whether they really** 

### 22 **have the authority or not. That's all.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,**  

### 2 **Lochinvar. In my mind, there are two very** 

### 3 **distinct, separate issues. One is whether or** 

### 4 **not DOE has the authority to have a** 

### 5 **manufacturer-funded verification testing** 

### 6 **program. The other one is if there is a** 

### 7 **manufacturer-funded verification testing** 

### 8 **program, or if there's any verification** 

### 9 **program, what is the minimum requirement? And** 

### 10 **that is what we are, I think, a part of** 

### 11 **negotiating and discussing. I'm very much** 

### 12 **interested in being a part of developing what** 

### 13 **is that minimum standard that should be met in** 

### 14 **order to be accepted by DOE as a verification?** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: I understand that.** 

### 16 **All I am suggesting is that you're saying to** 

### 17 **people in this room that you'll negotiate on** 

### 18 **that, but you don't think they have a legal** 

### 19 **authority to do it. So the question will be** 

### 20 **whether people will think there's going to be** 

### 21 **reasonable give and take that warrants time to** 

### 22 **develop the kinds of things you get through**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1 negotiations. That's all. And I'm talking**  

### 2 **about both sides. If DOE believes it needs a** 

### 3 **manufacturer-funded program, then they may not** 

### 4 **be able to negotiate effectively.** 

### 5 **MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON.** 

### 6 **Laura, if -- you said this is a policy** 

### 7 **decision, so there is some possibility that** 

### 8 **DOE will make the policy decision even though** 

### 9 **it believes it has the authority to mandate a** 

### 10 **manufacturer-funded program that they could** 

### 11 **also do the two lists for the voluntary** 

### 12 **program.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: That is a** 

### 14 **possibility.** 

### 15 **MR. FLY: I mean those are really** 

### 16 **the two choices I see that are being laid out** 

### 17 **on the table. Either we have an optional** 

### 18 **program in which case we would like that** 

### 19 **listed in two lists so that you could see who** 

### 20 **was participating in the optional program and** 

### 21 **who was not. Or we have a mandatory program** 

### 22 **that everybody is on there and we have one**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1 list. And the decision between those two**  

### 2 **happens in two places. There's a legal** 

### 3 **authority and there's a DOE policy and it** 

### 4 **could go either way in either place.** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: Very well said.** 

### 6 **MR. FLY: But neither one of them** 

### 7 **precludes us from having -- needing to develop** 

### 8 **a minimum set of requirements for a** 

### 9 **verification program.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I would say** 

### 11 **though that I think whether it's required or** 

### 12 **not has a huge impact on what that program --** 

### 13 **at least my guess is that everybody in this** 

### 14 **room may have different views if it's** 

### 15 **voluntary what those requirements should be** 

### 16 **versus if it's mandatory what those** 

### 17 **requirements should be. And so to the extent** 

### 18 **that that has an impact on the negotiation, I** 

### 19 **think it would behoove everyone to figure out** 

### 20 **which we were doing early on.** 

### 21 **MR. KOJAK: Couldn't we do both?** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: I'm just thinking of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1 the nightmare number of details.**  

### 2 **(Laughter.)** 

### 3 **And doing it twice?** 

### 4 **MR. FLY: It's still minimum** 

### 5 **requirements.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: If it's voluntary,** 

### 7 **then it's minimum requirements for a --** 

### 8 **basically I think it was Karen who said it,** 

### 9 **basically for marketing. I mean DOE gets** 

### 10 **useful information out of it, but it's not the** 

### 11 **same level of certainty that we would get from** 

### 12 **a mandatory program. And so it's kind of like** 

### 13 **what's in it for us then if it's just a low** 

### 14 **bar?** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: Okay, I think it's** 

### 16 **time, unless somebody has got some wording** 

### 17 **changes they would like to see, I think it's** 

### 18 **time to take a vote on this.** 

### 19 **Are there any objections to this** 

### 20 **language being presented by Ashley this** 

### 21 **afternoon to the ASRAC group?** 

### 22 **MR. HON: I would like to clarify**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1 that each one of these is a separate group,**  

### 2 **not voted on as a whole.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: Let's go back up to** 

### 4 **the group descriptions. That's a good point.** 

### 5 **Why don't we say the subgroup, start off with** 

### 6 **something like on CRE and say this for each,** 

### 7 **the subgroup looking at this issue** 

### 8 **preliminarily -- I'm sorry, say that again?** 

### 9 **(Off the record comments.)** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: The following are** 

### 11 **reports from the subgroups looking at their** 

### 12 **specific area as they develop their ideas to** 

### 13 **present to the full working group. Is that** 

### 14 **sufficient?** 

### 15 **MR. HON: Yes, because that** 

### 16 **doesn't say that we're supporting any of these** 

### 17 **others.** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: And it also makes** 

### 19 **clear it's not final even apart from the** 

### 20 **subgroup that you still have more work to do.** 

### 21 **MR. HON: Yes, I can deal with** 

### 22 **that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1 MR. EISNER: Okay, any objections**  

### 2 **to that language?** 

### 3 **(No response.)** 

### 4 **Any abstentions?** 

### 5 **MS. DANE: We deleted that then,** 

### 6 **right? We deleted the legal authority** 

### 7 **statement?** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: No, the legal** 

### 9 **authority statement is still in.** 

### 10 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: Everybody take a look** 

### 12 **at that and let's take another look.** 

### 13 **MR. STEPHENS: I would say was** 

### 14 **raised by some manufacturer's whether DOE has** 

### 15 **authority.** 

### 16 **MR. STANONIK: What difference** 

### 17 **does that make?** 

### 18 **MS. DANE: Because it seems to be** 

### 19 **in a particular market segment.** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, I would say to** 

### 21 **the extent that the advocates --** 

### 22 **MS. DANE: And it's basically been**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60**  **1 raised by one group that already has**  

### 2 **certification program. The rest of us don't** 

### 3 **already have a certification program we belong** 

### 4 **to.** 

### 5 **MR. BAUMAN: I didn't raise it,** 

### 6 **but I'm interested in it.** 

### 7 **MR. HURST: I'm interested, too.** 

### 8 **I don't think it's an issue. My concern is** 

### 9 **not so much in here. I said it yesterday, I** 

### 10 **don't want to go through another regional** 

### 11 **standards where we get something out of left** 

### 12 **field and then it gets caught up in court. So** 

### 13 **if we can get a definitive legal opinion, I** 

### 14 **don't really care who it comes from as long as** 

### 15 **it's a good one.** 

### 16 **(Laughter.)** 

### 17 **Like I said yesterday, my opinion** 

### 18 **doesn't really matter, but I would -- I would** 

### 19 **much rather resolve this early than have it** 

### 20 **come at us out of left field two years from** 

### 21 **now. So if there's a concern there's a** 

### 22 **concern. My opinion doesn't matter, but let's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61**  **1 resolve it and move on.**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: Could someone who's** 

### 3 **advocating the language edition by some** 

### 4 **manufacturers try once again to help me** 

### 5 **understand it? I'm agnostic. I'm really** 

### 6 **trying to understand why it's important to add** 

### 7 **those words.** 

### 8 **MR. HURST: Because some** 

### 9 **manufacturers haven't raised it, I guess. I** 

### 10 **didn't advocate adding it, but I think what** 

### 11 **I'm hearing is somebody saying I don't have an** 

### 12 **issue with it, so don't lump me into that all** 

### 13 **manufacturers because it's only some.** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: How about the** 

### 15 **questions was raised -- that's not** 

### 16 **grammatically correct, but we can fix that.** 

### 17 **The question was raised by some. Would that** 

### 18 **be better? Or some members?** 

### 19 **MR. BAUMAN: I don't think it** 

### 20 **would be members because it was raised by** 

### 21 **other groups, but it was also raised, as I** 

### 22 **think I've said in some of the phone**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62**  **1 conversations we've had even on CRE --**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: By some affected** 

### 3 **interests?** 

### 4 **MR. BAUMAN: Sure. It would be a** 

### 5 **member outside this group.** 

### 6 **MR. SACHS: What about just raised** 

### 7 **by some?** 

### 8 **MR. HURST: Or just raised.** 

### 9 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: I sense that some** 

### 11 **don't want to be associated --** 

### 12 **MR. KOJAK: But it could have just** 

### 13 **been from one person. If a question was** 

### 14 **raised, it could have been one person** 

### 15 **questioning it.** 

### 16 **MR. HURST: How about by some, but** 

### 17 **not by others?** 

### 18 **(Laughter.)** 

### 19 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: Everybody ready? Are** 

### 21 **there any objections? Any objections to the** 

### 22 **whole package now with this language on legal**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63**  **1 authority?**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: Do we get a break if** 

### 3 **we vote yes?** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: No.** 

### 5 **(Laughter.)** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: Does anybody abstain?** 

### 7 **One abstention. Going once, going twice.** 

### 8 **Okay.** 

### 9 **(Applause.)** 

### 10 **All right, it's ten after ten.** 

### 11 **Why don't we take ten minutes off and come** 

### 12 **back and talk about motors.** 

### 13 **(Whereupon, the above-entitled** 

### 14 **matter went off the record at 10:09 a.m. and** 

### 15 **resumed at 11:02 a.m.)** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: Anybody want to hear** 

### 17 **what the motors group agreed to?** 

### 18 **MS. DANE: They agreed.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: They agreed, sort of.** 

### 20 **Does anybody want to hear the details about** 

### 21 **that? Yes? No?** 

### 22 **MS. MEYERS: Yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64**  **1 MR. EISNER: Ashley, do you want**  

### 2 **to summarize that?** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure, I can** 

### 4 **summarize. So what we discussed was that DOE** 

### 5 **has gone through the spreadsheet that AHRI** 

### 6 **provided to NEMA and we've done the scaling on** 

### 7 **all of those and generally we found that the** 

### 8 **scaling works. There were five motor types** 

### 9 **that didn't have efficiency values in them, so** 

### 10 **we couldn't do it on those.** 

### 11 **There are two outliers for which** 

### 12 **the scaling works, but the motors wouldn't be** 

### 13 **compliant. Those two products would be** 

### 14 **through redesigned, but for the majority of** 

### 15 **them it's closed or they passed with no** 

### 16 **issues.** 

### 17 **So what we've agreed to do is** 

### 18 **tomorrow we're going to circulate that** 

### 19 **spreadsheet to the commercial HVAC** 

### 20 **manufacturers so they can take a look at it** 

### 21 **because we weren't aware that they didn't have** 

### 22 **the original spreadsheet even though they**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65**  **1 provided data into that spreadsheet, they**  

### 2 **didn't have the finalized version, so we're** 

### 3 **going to send that back to them with our** 

### 4 **scaling of it. And then we also agreed that** 

### 5 **if they wanted to look at their products or** 

### 6 **they wanted to see if those five motors that** 

### 7 **don't have efficiency data, they get the** 

### 8 **efficiency data or if there's other motors you** 

### 9 **want us to look at, you can contact Mike** 

### 10 **directly and he can do that for you in your** 

### 11 **scaling. And then we would like some feedback** 

### 12 **from the HVAC manufacturers either we can live** 

### 13 **with this or this works, we're done and DOE** 

### 14 **will work on the language to circulate to** 

### 15 **everyone after that. So we're pretty close.** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: Any questions?** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: What's the time** 

### 18 **frame? When is everything happening?** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: What's everything?** 

### 20 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'll send out,** 

### 21 **I'll put something in the email or Jeremiah** 

### 22 **will put something in the email, but we'll**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66**  **1 need a pretty quick response. If you need**  

### 2 **Mike to look at more specific motors or --** 

### 3 **contact him this week, tomorrow, Friday,** 

### 4 **something like that because Laura brings up a** 

### 5 **good point. That rule, a cert rule and AEDM** 

### 6 **rule are on a fast pace here. So assuming** 

### 7 **ASRAC approves the package that we've sent to** 

### 8 **them, we will need this language to be worked** 

### 9 **out pretty shortly.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: And you might mention** 

### 11 **the confidentiality.** 

### 12 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, and Mike** 

### 13 **offered that if anyone wants to share their** 

### 14 **manufacturer-specific data, you can do it** 

### 15 **under an MDA specific with him. So that way** 

### 16 **you wouldn't have to go through the process of** 

### 17 **scrubbing it. It could show these are my** 

### 18 **motors, these are -- it stays with him. DOE** 

### 19 **won't see it. And he can do the scaling for** 

### 20 **you and send it back.** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: Any more questions?** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Just to take a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67**  **1 couple of the people out of the process, so**  

### 2 **hopefully speed this up and wrap it up pretty** 

### 3 **quickly.** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: We have an hour and a** 

### 5 **half until we break for lunch, so I think we** 

### 6 **should talk about -- I think we've covered all** 

### 7 **the issues that we talked about covering this** 

### 8 **morning. That leaves us time, if we want, to** 

### 9 **go into verification. The full group now can** 

### 10 **start looking at some of these issues, talking** 

### 11 **about them, maybe giving some feedback on** 

### 12 **them. Is that a way everybody would like to** 

### 13 **proceed or does somebody have alternative** 

### 14 **suggestions?** 

### 15 **(No response.)** 

### 16 **Does that mean we have consensus** 

### 17 **about getting a report from the first one and** 

### 18 **starting to talk about it? How's furthest** 

### 19 **along?** 

### 20 **MR. BAUMAN: Can I ask a question** 

### 21 **for the CRE group? Are we ready to discuss** 

### 22 **that with the whole working group or do we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68**  **1 want to talk about that before we present out**  

### 2 **latest draft?** 

### 3 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with** 

### 4 **AHRI. Again, I think there's a proposal. We** 

### 5 **can discuss it, but again, as far as saying we** 

### 6 **have contentions --** 

### 7 **MR. BAUMAN: Do we want to discuss** 

### 8 **that as the full working group or do we want** 

### 9 **to keep that to the CRE group for now? I** 

### 10 **think that's the question that you're --** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: How to proceed.** 

### 12 **Because again, people talked this morning** 

### 13 **about where are we. Right now, it's just** 

### 14 **subgroup saying here's what we think we'd like** 

### 15 **to do. We have to start thinking about things** 

### 16 **like -- just to see where it's necessary among** 

### 17 **the three subgroups. We have to think about** 

### 18 **whether people are going to say I have a** 

### 19 **problem with that because I think it then may** 

### 20 **affect what I'm going to do because somebody** 

### 21 **will say well, why can't you meet that same** 

### 22 **standard? So we need to be talking about**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69**  **1 justification for distinctions, that sort of**  

### 2 **thing.** 

### 3 **MS. DANE: I think there's some** 

### 4 **advantages, Jeff, to talking about it now.** 

### 5 **Number one, there's two people who have not** 

### 6 **been involved in the past who are in the room.** 

### 7 **And on top of that, like Neil points out, if** 

### 8 **we're going to have any problem bringing what** 

### 9 **affects directly only CRE back to the group** 

### 10 **and the other group feels that it's going to** 

### 11 **affect them, I'd like to know if we're going** 

### 12 **to run across trouble now than before we get** 

### 13 **it all set to what works best for our industry** 

### 14 **in particular so that we know that going into** 

### 15 **go back and talk to the rest of our** 

### 16 **manufacturers.** 

### 17 **I think the copy that you cleaned** 

### 18 **up last night is good enough to show to the** 

### 19 **group.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: You're emailing** 

### 21 **something to show the group?** 

### 22 **MR. BAUMAN: Can I send that email**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70**  **1 to you, Jeremiah? It will take me a couple of**  

### 2 **minutes if somebody else wants to go.** 

### 3 **(Pause.)** 

### 4 **MS. HOOTMAN: HVAC hasn't really** 

### 5 **been working on theirs because we were working** 

### 6 **on the motors. We have what we were for the** 

### 7 **last time when we met.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: Assuming we have time** 

### 9 **today, would you want consent discussion of** 

### 10 **that later on?** 

### 11 **MS. HOOTMAN: Sure, we can get** 

### 12 **further along.** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: Let's concentrate on** 

### 14 **what we got right now.** 

### 15 **MR. AMRANE: While we're waiting** 

### 16 **for Jeff, I have a question for DOE. This is** 

### 17 **Karim with AHRI. We've been talking about** 

### 18 **verification and I understand from DOE the** 

### 19 **expectation is just not just verifying product** 

### 20 **at the minimum standard, but verifying** 

### 21 **everything. I guess each group is coming up** 

### 22 **with ways to address if you fail a test, let's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71**  **1 say. And maybe in some cases there's going to**  

### 2 **be additional tests or whatever it is. But is** 

### 3 **DOE going to look at the failure, let's say in** 

### 4 **the verification program as a way to trigger** 

### 5 **an enforcement or is enforcement only linked** 

### 6 **to the federal minimum standard?** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: So there are a** 

### 8 **variety of different violations laid out in** 

### 9 **the statute, but typically we bring what we** 

### 10 **call two different types of cases. One are** 

### 11 **certification cases and one are standards** 

### 12 **cases. So certification cases where you** 

### 13 **certified a value that isn't an appropriate** 

### 14 **value or you didn't certify at all or** 

### 15 **something like that. So those are** 

### 16 **certification cases. So we might bring up a** 

### 17 **case as a certification case if we thought** 

### 18 **that the manufacturer had knowingly** 

### 19 **misrepresented what the value was. So there** 

### 20 **could be enforcement for that.** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: So in other words,** 

### 22 **they meet the minimum standard, but not the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72**  **1 standard they sold it at.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: Right. Whereas a** 

### 3 **standards violation is a failure to meet the** 

### 4 **minimum standard.** 

### 5 **MR. THARP: So on the** 

### 6 **certification cases, do you get FTC involved?** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: Not for commercial** 

### 8 **stuff.** 

### 9 **MR. THARP: But you would for** 

### 10 **residential products basically?** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 12 **MR. BAUMAN: Is there a tolerance** 

### 13 **that you -- I apologize if I missed this** 

### 14 **before. If you're -- I'll say going to call** 

### 15 **a problem or an issue that maybe meets the** 

### 16 **standard, but does not meet what the** 

### 17 **manufacturer's certified value was, I asked** 

### 18 **the question when we were talking of this** 

### 19 **earlier because we were talking extensively** 

### 20 **about what the tolerance is when you -- is** 

### 21 **there a tolerance you use on that or is it** 

### 22 **just --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: So we looked at the**  

### 2 **certification statistics that are in there** 

### 3 **because that's what the manufacturer was** 

### 4 **supposed to have used when they certified the** 

### 5 **product, so the tolerance is based on the** 

### 6 **statistics in the regulations. It's not a** 

### 7 **flat number.** 

### 8 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim again** 

### 9 **with AHRI. So you're not using the** 

### 10 **enforcement statistics.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: No, for** 

### 12 **certification cases we're looking at what was** 

### 13 **the certified -- the value they were supposed** 

### 14 **to have certified. It's not a -- did it meet** 

### 15 **the standard or not. It's was their number an** 

### 16 **appropriate number based on the actual test** 

### 17 **data. And I don't want to say that we will** 

### 18 **never bring a case where we do verification** 

### 19 **testing. And so I'm kind of hedging because** 

### 20 **we haven't actually had this scenario arise,** 

### 21 **so I'm kind of wavering a little bit. But the** 

### 22 **only cases we have brought that way, were**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74**  **1 cases where we looked at the manufacturers'**  

### 2 **own test data and you apply the certification** 

### 3 **statistics and they could not have certified** 

### 4 **it at that number. There was no reason why** 

### 5 **they should have ever certified it at the** 

### 6 **number that they certified it at. It wasn't** 

### 7 **just that our test data came out different.** 

### 8 **It's that their test data came out different.** 

### 9 **MR. STANONIK: But I think the** 

### 10 **question was, okay, let's say I sent you some** 

### 11 **information that said this product is rated at** 

### 12 **-you know, let's say, 92 percent and I had run** 

### 13 **the test and I only came up with 90 percent.** 

### 14 **Is there some level at which you would, you** 

### 15 **know, it would trigger to you and you would** 

### 16 **say, it looks like the rating is inaccurate?** 

### 17 **I think that was the question, right?** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, so on a single** 

### 19 **sample where you'll have one test, you can't** 

### 20 **apply the certification statistics. If it was** 

### 21 **determined using an AEDM we came up with** 

### 22 **tolerances. I think that if we do a single**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75**  **1 verification test and it comes out way off,**  

### 2 **we're going to be looking at their test data** 

### 3 **and we're going to be looking at what's going** 

### 4 **on way beyond just that one rating.** 

### 5 **MR. STANONIK: So way off, let's** 

### 6 **just say it's going to be kind of case-by-case** 

### 7 **basis at the moment.** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, I mean a lot of** 

### 9 **it is based on -- when we see a situation like** 

### 10 **that we ask for their test data and you know,** 

### 11 **it's kind of dependent on the facts. If their** 

### 12 **data shows that they had very consistent test** 

### 13 **data, then maybe there's not an issue, but it** 

### 14 **just depends.** 

### 15 **MR. BAUMAN: Thanks, Laura. I** 

### 16 **think we're kind of, we were getting back to** 

### 17 **kind of basic and the reason Karim and I were** 

### 18 **talking about I was somewhat surprised that** 

### 19 **people particularly on the HVAC side, the C** 

### 20 **side which my company has some products in** 

### 21 **there, I'm going to add this list and your** 

### 22 **listing, the manufacturer lists the model,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76**  **1 we're using the SEER 12 and it tested and when**  

### 2 **it tested on a verification we're -- even with** 

### 3 **that verification program. If there was an** 

### 4 **enforcement action because -- okay, they** 

### 5 **actually tested a SEER 11, so you weren't --** 

### 6 **what you claimed you were here, but the** 

### 7 **standard is 10. So all well and good, you** 

### 8 **rerate that one unit, but then that's it,** 

### 9 **nothing else happens.** 

### 10 **MR. AMRANE: That's not what she's** 

### 11 **saying.** 

### 12 **MR. BAUMAN: I thought that's what** 

### 13 **- you're basically claiming a better** 

### 14 **efficiency, you're claiming an efficiency,** 

### 15 **you're comparing that to everybody else that's** 

### 16 **on that list, whatever that multiple list is.** 

### 17 **You're actually here, but you're above the** 

### 18 **federal minimum standard. But you claim** 

### 19 **something that you weren't. Is there any** 

### 20 **enforcement action against that other than** 

### 21 **relisting or rewriting that product?** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, that's a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77**  **1 certification violation, which is subject to**  

### 2 **civil penalties.** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Could be.** 

### 4 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim, AHRI.** 

### 5 **I just bring into question because within** 

### 6 **those working groups coming up with -- how you** 

### 7 **would fail a test and that failure is linked** 

### 8 **to, could be linked to those certification** 

### 9 **requirements that you have in place. So I** 

### 10 **think we need to have some guidance from DOE** 

### 11 **as to what would be acceptable. I mean is** 

### 12 **five percent that we agreed to is acceptable** 

### 13 **or is it less or what would trigger failure** 

### 14 **within those?** 

### 15 **MS. HOOTMAN: And what would** 

### 16 **trigger those civil penalties in certification** 

### 17 **and/or the standard.** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: We're not opposed to** 

### 19 **a flat number and I think that that very well** 

### 20 **may be part of a specific number.** 

### 21 **MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't have one**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78**  **1 right now.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, right now,** 

### 3 **there's not one.** 

### 4 **MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the best** 

### 5 **way to say it. Right now we have no specific** 

### 6 **tolerance there.** 

### 7 **MR. STANONIK: But right now, if** 

### 8 **you were in that situation, you'd go back to** 

### 9 **the certification information and let's say** 

### 10 **look at the spread of those tests and if it** 

### 11 **was -- let's say if that single test result** 

### 12 **was anomalous compared to that spread, then** 

### 13 **you might go forward. Might.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: Usually, I know -- I** 

### 15 **think people think that we just go plowing** 

### 16 **ahead, but I mean we usually have a lot of** 

### 17 **conversations with the manufacturer. We're** 

### 18 **asking a lot of questions about what they're** 

### 19 **doing. We're really getting in their business** 

### 20 **more than they really like, but we're trying** 

### 21 **to figure out what is going on.** 

### 22 **MR. STANONIK: So in the absence**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79**  **1 of a fixed criteria, you're trying to**  

### 2 **understand each situation.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes. It isn't an** 

### 4 **easy call. I can't just say that yes, we can** 

### 5 **do this in this case and we don't do that.** 

### 6 **(Laughter.)** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: More on this? Do we** 

### 8 **need anything more from DOE? Are you happy** 

### 9 **with the explanation? You had mentioned you** 

### 10 **would like some guidance.** 

### 11 **MR. AMRANE: Well, again, I think** 

### 12 **you're going to hear from different groups of** 

### 13 **what this means.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: But no, obviously a** 

### 15 **verification program that's being administered** 

### 16 **on a much broader scale is something that** 

### 17 **would be new and we are very open to the ideas** 

### 18 **that you all are putting forward.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: Are we ready to go to** 

### 20 **Jeff's side?** 

### 21 **MR. BAUMAN: And again, I want to** 

### 22 **say some of the items on here I don't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80**  **1 necessarily agree with everything. It's again**  

### 2 **a draft/working document for even with the CRE** 

### 3 **group. It's just ideas that have been out** 

### 4 **there for consideration and it's taken some** 

### 5 **work to get to even this point, but it doesn't** 

### 6 **mean that this represents a final position for** 

### 7 **the group, subgroup.** 

### 8 **MR. THARP: Is this being proposed** 

### 9 **as something that the entire group will** 

### 10 **consider for general requirements?** 

### 11 **MR. BAUMAN: I would say at this** 

### 12 **point it's something the CRE subgroup is** 

### 13 **considering to propose to the full working** 

### 14 **group. I think the idea is that we're going** 

### 15 **to have a final, I'll say draft or final** 

### 16 **proposal on this before the end of October is** 

### 17 **what we've said that would go to the full** 

### 18 **working group which would then eventually go** 

### 19 **to ASRAC.** 

### 20 **I think the reason for presenting** 

### 21 **this here is to kind of give everybody a feel** 

### 22 **for the type of thinking we're at and whether**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81**  **1 there's strong objections that anything --**  

### 2 **hopefully, it helps some other conversations,** 

### 3 **hopefully it helps us to get feedback to say** 

### 4 **hey, you shouldn't even be thinking about** 

### 5 **that.** 

### 6 **MR. BAUMAN: This is a CRE** 

### 7 **proposal to the whole group for what CRE will** 

### 8 **go through or CRE proposal to the whole group** 

### 9 **--** 

### 10 **MR. THARP: For CRE only.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: And the purpose of** 

### 12 **the discussion is to see whether everybody is** 

### 13 **okay with that, whether they see any conflicts** 

### 14 **with what they're suggesting, whether they see** 

### 15 **anything that should be higher or lower, that** 

### 16 **kind of thing.** 

### 17 **MR. HON: Also, it's a possible** 

### 18 **model for some of the other groups that** 

### 19 **haven't really started.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: Very good point. The** 

### 21 **idea is to help them and then go back,** 

### 22 **perhaps, and refine the proposal as well as**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82**  **1 the others to learn something that might help**  

### 2 **them go back in the coming years.** 

### 3 **MS. DANE: This was only our first** 

### 4 **phone call and like I said, we'll go back to** 

### 5 **our group. We tried to address everything** 

### 6 **that was on Laura's slide in one of the last** 

### 7 **slide groups we got. So even we know that** 

### 8 **there's some things that need to be finished** 

### 9 **in here.** 

### 10 **MR. BAUMAN: And we planned it to** 

### 11 **have at least some conference calls with AHRI** 

### 12 **members with NAPM members and again taking** 

### 13 **that effort to try to reach out to people even** 

### 14 **with this level of interaction.** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: How much longer -- it** 

### 16 **doesn't fit all on one page?** 

### 17 **MR. BAUMAN: It's a couple of** 

### 18 **pages.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: And again, it's my** 

### 20 **suggestion, but open to other ideas, let's** 

### 21 **read the whole thing, then let's go back and** 

### 22 **start at the beginning and start going through**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83**  **1 it. Is that okay?**  

### 2 **Why don't you start with the first** 

### 3 **page, time it for the slow readers.** 

### 4 **(Pause.)** 

### 5 **Is everybody ready to go to the** 

### 6 **next page?** 

### 7 **MR. BAUMAN: For clarification, we** 

### 8 **talked about there's kind of two uses that we** 

### 9 **have of third party in there. One is again** 

### 10 **NRTL, but a third party could run the whole** 

### 11 **program. I don't want to get into too much** 

### 12 **detail, but as you read in third party, we're** 

### 13 **also kind of going on the assumption that even** 

### 14 **if it's a manufacturer-run program a third** 

### 15 **party would be responsible for managing the** 

### 16 **individual test. Once you have a test, the** 

### 17 **third party would be responsible for** 

### 18 **overseeing the selection of and the testing of** 

### 19 **the product. So even in the level where it's** 

### 20 **a manufacturer-run program, a third party** 

### 21 **would still be involved of the individual** 

### 22 **test.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84**  **1 MR. SACHS: Yes, this is Harvey.**  

### 2 **Just for clarification since I am pretty** 

### 3 **ignorant about 17025 and 17065, my sense is** 

### 4 **that this is those requirements or does it go** 

### 5 **beyond those or does it fall short in terms of** 

### 6 **that third party?** 

### 7 **MR. BAUMAN: I threw in the NRTL** 

### 8 **as a generic failsafe and that kind of** 

### 9 **addresses I believe 17065 and 17025 that they** 

### 10 **have to be independent, the 65 -- my reading** 

### 11 **of it. I'm not well versed on it, but enough** 

### 12 **well versed to say that. And 17025 deals with** 

### 13 **the competency to run the test. So I think** 

### 14 **that's why they kind of use the NRTLs and I** 

### 15 **think that's from some other documents and** 

### 16 **discussions we've had.** 

### 17 **MR. SACHS: Thank you, and I'm** 

### 18 **hearing Bill shake his head agreeing. That** 

### 19 **just make it authoritative.** 

### 20 **MR. TRITSIS: This is Bill at** 

### 21 **AHRI. I think we had this discussion before.** 

### 22 **I'm happy to see the CRE group understands the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85**  **1 differences between 17025 and 17065 as they**  

### 2 **relate to impartiality, particularly that** 

### 3 **17065 part in any credible verification** 

### 4 **scheme.** 

### 5 **MR. SACHS: Thank you. This is** 

### 6 **Harvey and with respect to item 4, I've had** 

### 7 **some pushback that I need to do more work to** 

### 8 **convince people that the numbers presented are** 

### 9 **accurate. They sound low. Some people are** 

### 10 **more used to working with residential** 

### 11 **products. I'm comfortable that you all have** 

### 12 **considered this very carefully, but I'll** 

### 13 **probably be calling on CRE folks to help me** 

### 14 **make the case.** 

### 15 **MS. DANE: Our friends at AHRI** 

### 16 **tell us that those numbers are higher than** 

### 17 **their own requirements, so I would think that** 

### 18 **--** 

### 19 **MR. AMRANE: It's interesting --** 

### 20 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 21 **MS. DANE: You have no** 

### 22 **competition. You're a monopoly.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86**  **1 MR. BAUMAN: There's an issue of**  

### 2 **what the penalties are for different product** 

### 3 **groups. I'm not willing to try to answer your** 

### 4 **question, but yes those things were absolutely** 

### 5 **considered. Let's read through the rest of** 

### 6 **this if we can and because we also talk about** 

### 7 **what the penalties are. I think that's the** 

### 8 **part of where AHRI handles that and where we** 

### 9 **looked at that.** 

### 10 **MR. TRITSIS: At the same time,** 

### 11 **this is Bill with AHRI, we cannot have** 

### 12 **continuous misinformation be presented.** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: Let's stop there. I** 

### 14 **think everybody agrees. Let's go back, finish** 

### 15 **reading this, and then start over and start** 

### 16 **talking about it. Let's not get into who's** 

### 17 **misinformed or whatever. Are we ready to go** 

### 18 **on beyond the bottom of this page? There's a** 

### 19 **little bit more I think.** 

### 20 **(Pause.)** 

### 21 **MR. BAUMAN: And I'll say, too,** 

### 22 **while we're on that, the remote was something**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87**  **1 that we brought up new and we know there's an**  

### 2 **issue there as far as correlating a remote** 

### 3 **number versus a self contained. But for some** 

### 4 **products like self-contained closed door** 

### 5 **models are a relatively small part of the** 

### 6 **industry and doing a test on it for a self** 

### 7 **contained remote is very difficult, but we** 

### 8 **believe, I'll say there would be some way to** 

### 9 **correlate between the remote unit and test the** 

### 10 **self-contain rather than testing a remote** 

### 11 **unit, if that makes any sense. And it would** 

### 12 **actually give you a better feel for what the** 

### 13 **efficiency is.** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: If we could go back** 

### 15 **to the beginning of the slides.** 

### 16 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 17 **(Pause.)** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: Is everybody done** 

### 19 **with this page? Is there more?** 

### 20 **MR. KOJAK: There's always more.** 

### 21 **(Pause.)** 

### 22 **MS. DANE: Harvey, I think this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88**  **1 number eight might help you in some of the**  

### 2 **convincing that you were asked to strengthen.** 

### 3 **Basically, we're innocent until proven guilty.** 

### 4 **Once you get an invalid rating or something** 

### 5 **happens that brings our ratings into question,** 

### 6 **there is a path to increase the requirements** 

### 7 **for those that would have a problem with.** 

### 8 **MR. SACHS: I have also gotten** 

### 9 **feedback on this and I'd like to read the** 

### 10 **response. The general sense is that the 50** 

### 11 **percent for 2 years is inadequate.** 

### 12 **MS. DANE: Is inadequate?** 

### 13 **MR. SACHS: Is inadequate.** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: Again, group --** 

### 15 **MR. SACHS: You want to wait?** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: I want everybody to** 

### 17 **read it and we'll go back and try to go** 

### 18 **through it one by one and get the** 

### 19 **explanations, etcetera. So nothing in the** 

### 20 **other box. So we're done?** 

### 21 **Let's go up to the top of the** 

### 22 **slide. Let's start with program management.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89**  **1 Questions, concerns, anything people want to**  

### 2 **explain?** 

### 3 **MR. THARP: AHRI industry trade** 

### 4 **association should be included as an option.** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: Do you want to** 

### 6 **explain that, John? You're saying further** 

### 7 **down there's something that would allow that?** 

### 8 **MR. THARP: Yes.** 

### 9 **MR. EISNER: Does anybody remember** 

### 10 **where it was? Is there any reason you** 

### 11 **wouldn't put in that first line, maybe run by** 

### 12 **an already existing group approved by DOE,** 

### 13 **etcetera.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: Do you want us to** 

### 15 **write on this or do you not want us --** 

### 16 **MR. BAUMAN: Have at it, please.** 

### 17 **MS. DANE: We'll just save them** 

### 18 **under a different name.** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: Fair enough.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: Would you want to add** 

### 21 **something to the first sentence about the** 

### 22 **existing group or group approved by DOE as**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90**  **1 meeting its standards or meeting or exceeding**  

### 2 **its standards.** 

### 3 **MR. THARP: You could just make** 

### 4 **that first sentence a bullet A and then put** 

### 5 **three options under that. First would be a** 

### 6 **duly-approved NRTL. The second would be** 

### 7 **equipment manufacturer. A third would be** 

### 8 **industry trade association.** 

### 9 **MR. STANONIK: The title says** 

### 10 **program management and you're talking about** 

### 11 **program may be run, but I keep reading that** 

### 12 **and the word keeps running into my head** 

### 13 **"tests." You don't need an NRTL to manage a** 

### 14 **program. You may need an NRTL to do testing.** 

### 15 **MR. HON: But an NRTL can be** 

### 16 **involved in a manufacturer-developed program** 

### 17 **such as the UL/ETL group CSA operates under** 

### 18 **the Energy Star program right now. NRTL** 

### 19 **actually is the one who selects the units to** 

### 20 **be tested and then does the testing.** 

### 21 **MR. STANONIK: Does the testing,** 

### 22 **but in terms of --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91**  **1 MR. HON: But they also --**  

### 2 **MR. STANONIK: -- excuse me. But** 

### 3 **managing a program at Energy Star, you need to** 

### 4 **be what's the certified, recognized certified** 

### 5 **body. Again, that's not dictated or** 

### 6 **controlled by NRTL.** 

### 7 **MS. DANE: They have their own** 

### 8 **programs. They have green programs. You all** 

### 9 **have the green program where they manage the** 

### 10 **data, where we submit our data.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: Just real quick. We** 

### 12 **have a request from the phone that everybody** 

### 13 **speak up just a little bit more.** 

### 14 **MR. STANONIK: I'm just trying to** 

### 15 **understand. As I read that, you're trying to** 

### 16 **address who can manage the program, but it** 

### 17 **instilled into who can coordinate -- who can** 

### 18 **do the testing and managing the program --** 

### 19 **because NRTL does not really address** 

### 20 **management of program. NRTL addresses** 

### 21 **qualifications for laboratories to do testing.** 

### 22 **MS. DANE: Our intention as the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92**  **1 group is is that we would operate some of us**  

### 2 **if we choose would operate with a green** 

### 3 **program through UL or someone else as NRTLs or** 

### 4 **whatever version.** 

### 5 **MR. STANONIK: I'm not contesting** 

### 6 **that at all. I'm just saying --** 

### 7 **MS. DANE: I know what you're** 

### 8 **contesting and I'm saying is that UL is** 

### 9 **accredited to Guide 65 which will become ISO** 

### 10 **17065. And they have the program in place and** 

### 11 **the ability to be the independent verifier of** 

### 12 **the data and perform the test.** 

### 13 **MR. STANONIK: Okay, everything** 

### 14 **you just said there does that got anything to** 

### 15 **do with NRTL approval?** 

### 16 **MR. FERRIOL: This is Brian with** 

### 17 **UL.** 

### 18 **Sorry, Phillip, but I think we're** 

### 19 **saying the same thing. I think that the issue** 

### 20 **is not who or what. It's just the term NRTL** 

### 21 **and I tend to agree with Frank in saying that** 

### 22 **if we just put Guide 65 it might solve the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93**  **1 problem because it will include the ETL, the**  

### 2 **UL, the CSA program and include actually the** 

### 3 **AHRI program. So if you put something like** 

### 4 **17065 or Guide 65, just my opinion, I think** 

### 5 **that would handle the objections.** 

### 6 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 7 **HTP. That was my question when I saw this was** 

### 8 **you used the word, the acronym NRTL. And that** 

### 9 **comes from OSHA. So I was wondering what the** 

### 10 **technical distinction between the NRTL and the** 

### 11 **17065 and the Guide 65. My limited** 

### 12 **understanding right now is that Guide 65 is in** 

### 13 **the process of going away which will be** 

### 14 **replaced by 17065.** 

### 15 **MS. DANE: Next year. We have** 

### 16 **three years to come up to speed.** 

### 17 **MR. STEPHENS: And that's a** 

### 18 **management system. That speaks nothing to the** 

### 19 **laboratory. That's how any program is** 

### 20 **managed, any program. It doesn't have to be** 

### 21 **a test program. It could be anything, right?** 

### 22 **MS. DANE: Yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94**  **1 MR. STEPHENS: So how does an NRTL**  

### 2 **relate to 17065? I don't -- I'm getting** 

### 3 **caught up in the acronyms. I don't get it.** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: Would a number work** 

### 5 **here as was suggested?** 

### 6 **MS. DANE: I would rather have the** 

### 7 **addition of a voluntary, of an industry** 

### 8 **program than the reduction of NRTL.** 

### 9 **MR. BAUMAN: Can I ask that we** 

### 10 **don't get too tied up in the details of the** 

### 11 **wording here. I think good points are being** 

### 12 **raised, Frank. I think the idea that an AHRI** 

### 13 **type program, but if we leave that concept for** 

### 14 **now in there and note that on here, and we can** 

### 15 **go back and understand the recognition of** 

### 16 **that. And Karim has been part of the** 

### 17 **discussion. I'm sure we're going to be again** 

### 18 **debating that within that group. I think it's** 

### 19 **a valid concern and issue to be raised. I** 

### 20 **don't think we need to -- I don't think it's** 

### 21 **important, very important that we take the** 

### 22 **time for this entire group to answer that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95**  **1 here.**  

### 2 **I think -- I'd like to hear what** 

### 3 **the concerns are. I don't know that we have** 

### 4 **to take an extended amount of time to answer** 

### 5 **them here. Leave that as an issue and then** 

### 6 **that CRE can then go back to consider as we** 

### 7 **continue to debate this issue.** 

### 8 **MR. STEPHENS: My concern is is** 

### 9 **that may be something that I want in the** 

### 10 **boilers and water heaters group also. That's** 

### 11 **my concern.** 

### 12 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 13 **AHRI. I guess really my question was how does** 

### 14 **the equipment manufacturer manage the program?** 

### 15 **That's really -- that's clearly an option. So** 

### 16 **what is -- at the present time, what are you** 

### 17 **envisioning how does the manufacturer, the** 

### 18 **company itself manage the program?** 

### 19 **MR. BAUMAN: They submit that it** 

### 20 **says -- my concept is that basically they're** 

### 21 **submitting an outline of their program and how** 

### 22 **the program would operate to DOE and that has**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96**  **1 to meet all the requirements that are called**  

### 2 **out below and anything else that's required of** 

### 3 **a program that might be agreed to as an** 

### 4 **overall by the working group of DOE. So you'd** 

### 5 **have to manage it like the third party would** 

### 6 **manage it in this case. Like you could manage** 

### 7 **it yourself. You have that option.** 

### 8 **MR. TRITSIS: This is Bill. But** 

### 9 **Jeff, is the manufacturer then going to be ISO** 

### 10 **65 accredited?** 

### 11 **MR. BAUMAN: No. But he's** 

### 12 **responsible for his own -- he can only be** 

### 13 **responsible for his own stuff. He also can't** 

### 14 **go out and do somebody else's. I can't call** 

### 15 **Charlie up and say hey, Charlie, I'll do all** 

### 16 **your testing say at AHRI, that it's limited to** 

### 17 **that equipment manufacturer, has** 

### 18 **responsibility for his own. He can have** 

### 19 **responsibility for his own equipment or you** 

### 20 **can go to a third party. I think that's** 

### 21 **important because again, trying to keep a** 

### 22 **minimum or a -- an investment minimum for what**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97**  **1 a group would -- for what a manufacturer would**  

### 2 **have to be imposed upon and this again is a** 

### 3 **lot of concern we've raised that we try to** 

### 4 **keep the costs down as much as possible. The** 

### 5 **manufacturer be responsible for their own** 

### 6 **part. They have that option.** 

### 7 **And I think the Department has** 

### 8 **expressed the idea that manufacturer-run** 

### 9 **programs would be acceptable and I think** 

### 10 **that's the option we want to get. I think** 

### 11 **that would open the -- because the companies** 

### 12 **and the organizations that want to offer a** 

### 13 **third party program will give them more reason** 

### 14 **to be competitive in programs that are** 

### 15 **affordable and you know, reasonable, and** 

### 16 **provide an additional benefit.** 

### 17 **MR. FERRIOL: Brian with UL. So** 

### 18 **just a clarification. So the manufacturer-run** 

### 19 **option would -- there would be no third party** 

### 20 **oversight or involvement, correct?** 

### 21 **MR. BAUMAN: There would be third** 

### 22 **party oversight on all the testing. From the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98**  **1 point of testing -- you have to tell them how**  

### 2 **many you're going to -- you go right to the** 

### 3 **Department. You can submit your own data. I** 

### 4 **don't want to get into -- my impression has** 

### 5 **been the Department was not as much interested** 

### 6 **in is something like we're dealing with with** 

### 7 **EPA and Energy Star right now. We can't even** 

### 8 **talk to EPA. We have to submit through a** 

### 9 **third party agency. You guys are doing a lot** 

### 10 **of effort and work to try to do that, but** 

### 11 **there have been concerns, I'll say on that,** 

### 12 **and not just for cost end point, but from a** 

### 13 **timing standpoint and things like that. That** 

### 14 **takes that out, again, where you can only do -** 

### 15 **- you can be responsible for your own** 

### 16 **equipment or have a third party do it. And** 

### 17 **that level, the third party still is telling** 

### 18 **you, hey, these are the units that you're** 

### 19 **going to have to test this year and you're not** 

### 20 **picking your own units what you're going to** 

### 21 **test, but testing isn't spelled out under this** 

### 22 **proposal, we're still at third party or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99**  **1 witnessed test by a third party and certified.**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: That's set forth** 

### 3 **later in the slides.** 

### 4 **MR. BAUMAN: Correct, correct.** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: Other comments,** 

### 6 **questions.** 

### 7 **MR. TRITSIS: Yes, I think the** 

### 8 **very premise of having a management run, a** 

### 9 **manufacturer-run verification program directly** 

### 10 **conflicts with the requirement if you're going** 

### 11 **to put 17065 as a requirement, what is the** 

### 12 **purpose then of the lab, an independent lab,** 

### 13 **UL or anybody to have 17065 is if the** 

### 14 **manufacturer is managing the verification** 

### 15 **program.** 

### 16 **MR. BAUMAN: The idea there would** 

### 17 **be that you don't have a bunch of called fly** 

### 18 **by-night organizations going out and saying** 

### 19 **hey, Charlie, Jeff, or Mary, I'll do all your** 

### 20 **units and I think there's a lot of companies** 

### 21 **that could be jumping on board that if you are** 

### 22 **going to go, if you're not responsible for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100**  **1 your own stuff, that whoever is going to be**  

### 2 **responsible for it has to meet a relatively** 

### 3 **high standard and to keep that other** 

### 4 **organization who might be not as above board** 

### 5 **as some of the other organizations that are** 

### 6 **going to be offering programs that are -- they** 

### 7 **should not be considered.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: Anything else on** 

### 9 **program management? Any other suggestions?** 

### 10 **Does this relate well to the other** 

### 11 **two subgroups in terms of what they're** 

### 12 **thinking about in this area?** 

### 13 **MR. STEPHENS: I think it gives us** 

### 14 **more options because really having a 17065** 

### 15 **requirement, those companies aren't going to** 

### 16 **assume the liability for anything, just like** 

### 17 **you're saying. We could very well get into a** 

### 18 **position where we had a lot of fly-by-night** 

### 19 **companies pop up.** 

### 20 **MR. SHEBIK: Can't hear you on the** 

### 21 **phone.** 

### 22 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, Phillip**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101**  **1 Stephens, HTP. Having a 17065 requirement,**  

### 2 **those companies are not going to accept any** 

### 3 **liability for any listing. It's purely going** 

### 4 **to come as an overhead to the manufacturers.** 

### 5 **And as a small manufacturer, I like this** 

### 6 **option. I like how you've laid it out.** 

### 7 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with** 

### 8 **AHRI. At some point, I think we will have to** 

### 9 **need some opinion from DOE on all of this** 

### 10 **because overall it will have an impact on the** 

### 11 **credibility of DOE and whatever DOE puts** 

### 12 **together. So I think it's important at some** 

### 13 **point for DOE weigh in to the discussion.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: DOE has said from** 

### 15 **the very beginning that we were not** 

### 16 **foreclosing the option of a manufacturer-run** 

### 17 **program. Now how we would actually get to the** 

### 18 **point where there were sufficient controls** 

### 19 **that we felt like there was independence, is** 

### 20 **an open question, but we are not foreclosing** 

### 21 **the manufacturer --** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: You have no problem**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102**  **1 with one?**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: No.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: What is in the** 

### 4 **substantive paragraphs --** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: How that ends up** 

### 6 **getting built is still open, but we are --** 

### 7 **MR. HON: You still have approval** 

### 8 **for that. You still have the approval system.** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 10 **MR. HON: They can say no, it's** 

### 11 **not good enough.** 

### 12 **MR. BAUMAN: The other point I** 

### 13 **want to raise again is we talked about this** 

### 14 **and I keep stressing it, this is a** 

### 15 **manufacturer-funded annual verification. This** 

### 16 **does not take or replace, this does not take** 

### 17 **full responsibility away from the Department** 

### 18 **that you guys have to make sure that people** 

### 19 **are being honest, because even if you do all** 

### 20 **those levels, that doesn't mean that somebody** 

### 21 **is not going to be cheating on some model that** 

### 22 **wasn't tested or whatever. This is to help**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103**  **1 them feel less of a burden on their need to**  

### 2 **use that 3.8 million or whatever it is to --** 

### 3 **it doesn't take it to zero. It takes it to** 

### 4 **potentially something less where you feel like** 

### 5 **you're doing okay. It's not meant -- and this** 

### 6 **goes to your question a little bit, Harvey,** 

### 7 **too, is that an annual manufacturer, this is** 

### 8 **not meant to take complete place of other work** 

### 9 **that the Department is doing to enforce to** 

### 10 **make sure people are staying honest.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: And the other thing,** 

### 12 **I remind everybody to keep your attention** 

### 13 **focused on, to the extent that this is** 

### 14 **considered more or less than what you were** 

### 15 **thinking of for your group, can it be** 

### 16 **justified? Is there something unique here** 

### 17 **that justifies something lesser? Is there** 

### 18 **something unique in your area that would allow** 

### 19 **for something less or even assuming whether** 

### 20 **that's the right adjective to describe it.** 

### 21 **Let's go on to effective date and** 

### 22 **Laura can correct the spelling. Let's talk**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104**  **1 about that.**  

### 2 **(Pause.)** 

### 3 **Any questions, any comments?** 

### 4 **MS. MEYERS: So does that say that** 

### 5 **everyone has to have their descriptions in or** 

### 6 **their --** 

### 7 **MR. SHEBIK: Can't hear on the** 

### 8 **phone.** 

### 9 **MS. MEYERS: Sorry. This is Karen** 

### 10 **with Rheem. So the effective date means that** 

### 11 **if you have to have your proposal in to DOE by** 

### 12 **-- do you get 12 months after you send in your** 

### 13 **proposal?** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: Let me kind of build** 

### 15 **on Karen's question. So before you can be in** 

### 16 **a program, there has to be an approved** 

### 17 **program. So at one point do the regs kick in** 

### 18 **for the approval process to start because it's** 

### 19 **going to take time for DOE to review the** 

### 20 **packages and issue an approval.** 

### 21 **And then how long after there are** 

### 22 **approvals do you start actually having**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105**  **1 selections and testing? I would see those as**  

### 2 **two things that have to be separated from one** 

### 3 **another to make sure that there are options** 

### 4 **available for you to actually participate in.** 

### 5 **MR. BAUMAN: Yes, can we add that?** 

### 6 **In fact it will say we have a document, we** 

### 7 **might not have the details worked out here,** 

### 8 **but include that as an item for -- I** 

### 9 **appreciate that.** 

### 10 **(Pause.)** 

### 11 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 12 **AHRI. I'm trying to get my head around** 

### 13 **effective date. So does effective date mean** 

### 14 **the date by which a manufacturer must either,** 

### 15 **in this example, have an approved program or** 

### 16 **be enrolled in an approved program? Or is** 

### 17 **that the date at which they would start to** 

### 18 **conduct the program?** 

### 19 **MS. DANE: I believe that's what** 

### 20 **Karen just asked and we have the language up** 

### 21 **there. Go back and check it.** 

### 22 **Originally, I think A is based on,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106**  **1 is it not, when the certification rule comes**  

### 2 **into effect because verification is going to** 

### 3 **be part of the final certification role,** 

### 4 **right?** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, two** 

### 6 **rulemakings?** 

### 7 **MS. DANE: Then we have to talk** 

### 8 **about it like the note you made.** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: Because of the** 

### 10 **importance of moving the certification rule** 

### 11 **quickly, we were going to do verification as** 

### 12 **a separate rulemaking.** 

### 13 **MS. DANE: Then we'd like to go** 

### 14 **back and discuss that per the note and answer** 

### 15 **better the next time.** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: Anything else on** 

### 17 **effective date, recognizing some clarification** 

### 18 **is needed there. No other questions or** 

### 19 **problems or issues? All right, number three,** 

### 20 **annual verification schedule.** 

### 21 **(Pause.)** 

### 22 **Is everybody okay with this one?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 107**  **1 MR. FERRIOL: This is Brian from**  

### 2 **UL. Just a clarifying question. You've got** 

### 3 **in there -- (B) is the manufacturer will** 

### 4 **notify DOE or the third party of the** 

### 5 **availability and proposed test schedule within** 

### 6 **30 days. But there's no closed loop on how** 

### 7 **far down the calendar can that proposal be.** 

### 8 **So are you suggesting that on February 1st you** 

### 9 **can say I'll have the unit available November** 

### 10 **1st? And that's acceptable for -- I'm just** 

### 11 **trying to figure out what's the span?** 

### 12 **MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. We** 

### 13 **have several open-ended questions there** 

### 14 **because we do not dictate and we cannot** 

### 15 **dictate your schedule as well. We are going** 

### 16 **to have to coordinate with a third party** 

### 17 **tester to come in, witness test, verify the** 

### 18 **test and issue a final report, all of which** 

### 19 **are out of our control window. So that's a** 

### 20 **problem we don't have a definitive number** 

### 21 **there because we don't know how long that** 

### 22 **process will take.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 108**  **1 MR. FERRIOL: Sure. My only**  

### 2 **concern is that if everybody says well I can** 

### 3 **do it in November, and I know it's not the** 

### 4 **intent, I'm just trying to look at unintended** 

### 5 **consequences and then everything is stacked up** 

### 6 **towards the back half of the year and then** 

### 7 **there might be a deadline of December 31st,** 

### 8 **have everything completed, does that kind of** 

### 9 **cause issues?** 

### 10 **MR. STEPHENS: Philip Stephens, I** 

### 11 **think out of þ they build that do loop into it** 

### 12 **where they say this is when we think we can** 

### 13 **have it done and then the DOE or the third** 

### 14 **party comes back and says exactly what you're** 

### 15 **saying, no, that's too far.** 

### 16 **MS. DANE: And that's covered in** 

### 17 **þ. It says that we go back after that 30 days** 

### 18 **and we're told whether or not the proposed** 

### 19 **schedule is acceptable. So I'm assuming that** 

### 20 **between the lab and DOE that in November we** 

### 21 **would definitely get a no.** 

### 22 **MR. FERRIOL: Brian with UL.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 109**  **1 Where does the ultimate authority lie in**  

### 2 **saying here's the ultimate decision? Is it a** 

### 3 **negotiation or is it a DOE or the third party?** 

### 4 **I don't have an opinion. I'm just trying to** 

### 5 **raise a potential unintended consequence. So** 

### 6 **who at that point, if there's a disagreement,** 

### 7 **who has the ultimate authority to say no, we** 

### 8 **need it by March 1st.** 

### 9 **MS. DANE: It would be the DOE. I** 

### 10 **mean it doesn't say that. We can make it say** 

### 11 **it if you would like.** 

### 12 **MR. BAUMAN: No, I think you're** 

### 13 **saying it because as you said, you're** 

### 14 **submitting, if you go back and you -- if your** 

### 15 **manufacturer program, let's just use that and** 

### 16 **the manufacturer says DOE gets that lovely** 

### 17 **letter that says hey, January 1st, Laura is on** 

### 18 **it and January 1st she said okay, these are** 

### 19 **the units you're going to have to test, you** 

### 20 **have 30 days from that point to submit what** 

### 21 **your proposal is for schedule and you call it** 

### 22 **within that, you call it your lab and oh no,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 110**  **1 I'm not going to be able to get that until**  

### 2 **November and so that's my proposed test** 

### 3 **schedule I send to DOE and they say you're** 

### 4 **crazy. And she says that's not and then we** 

### 5 **negotiated Laura said we do our wonderful** 

### 6 **negotiations, my perception. And then they** 

### 7 **would go back and say no, well, we'll deal** 

### 8 **within this standpoint. If it's something** 

### 9 **that's approved by DOE on the schedule --** 

### 10 **MR. FERRIOL: I don't know how** 

### 11 **scalable that is. If this program is huge,** 

### 12 **how many --** 

### 13 **MR. BAUMAN: Yes, I think that** 

### 14 **goes to the issue, too, I'll say the January** 

### 15 **30th day was expressed as a desire by some** 

### 16 **people to know at the beginning of the year** 

### 17 **what it would be for the year so you can do** 

### 18 **your budgeting and things like that. I think** 

### 19 **that again, I agree with everything here. I** 

### 20 **think that has a number of issues, too, where** 

### 21 **not only that puts an extra burden where Laura** 

### 22 **is going to be sitting home on Christmas and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 111**  **1 New Year's Eve writing these letters, but I**  

### 2 **think there's going to be some concerns. They** 

### 3 **also don't want the manufacturer to have six** 

### 4 **months or in some cases maybe in 30 days to** 

### 5 **make that decision. So the timing of it is** 

### 6 **definitely going to have to be worked out with** 

### 7 **input. I appreciate the comment.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: (B) goes into effect** 

### 9 **by the end of February, so by the end of** 

### 10 **February the tester and DOE would know that** 

### 11 **the schedule is in plenty of time for** 

### 12 **somebody, for the lab, for example, to say too** 

### 13 **many in November, we've got to move them** 

### 14 **around.** 

### 15 **MR. BAUMAN: And if Laura gets** 

### 16 **that letter out to you January 1st, you** 

### 17 **actually have until the end of January, so** 

### 18 **yes.** 

### 19 **MS. MEYERS: So does this say if** 

### 20 **you have a manufacturer-approved program that** 

### 21 **DOE selects your model?** 

### 22 **MR. BAUMAN: If you're a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 112**  **1 manufacturer program, DOE would select the**  

### 2 **models. If you're under a third-party** 

### 3 **program, overall, a third-party DVMP, then the** 

### 4 **third party would select the models.** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: But in the latter** 

### 6 **case, the third party would copy the DOE on** 

### 7 **the selections, right?** 

### 8 **MS. DANE: It says "or" not "and."** 

### 9 **We were careful to put "or."** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: Laura, is this time** 

### 11 **frame something you could work within?** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: So I have a lot of** 

### 13 **comments.** 

### 14 **(Laughter.)** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: Okay, anybody else?** 

### 16 **(Laughter.)** 

### 17 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: I was looking to see** 

### 19 **what all came up from other people before I** 

### 20 **jumped in.** 

### 21 **MR. SANDERS: This is Joe Sanders** 

### 22 **from Traulsen. The original certification or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 113**  **1 verification test may not be exactly at the**  

### 2 **beginning of the year, but after that they're** 

### 3 **all going to be on a rolling 12 anyway, so** 

### 4 **whether it's in November of 2014 and November** 

### 5 **of 2015, you're going to be on a rolling 12** 

### 6 **months so in the end I don't know if it makes** 

### 7 **a lot of difference what month you started.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: Other comments before** 

### 9 **we put Laura on?** 

### 10 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik of** 

### 11 **AHRI. I'm reading (B), to me, that says the** 

### 12 **manufacturer is doing all the testing. Is** 

### 13 **that the intent?** 

### 14 **MR. BAUMAN: No. No. I didn't** 

### 15 **think it said that, Frank.** 

### 16 **MR. STANONIK: Well, let me give** 

### 17 **you my logic. It says manufacturer reports** 

### 18 **test results to DOE or third party, okay? So** 

### 19 **that says that I'm -- I'm the manufacturer.** 

### 20 **I am giving my test results directly to DOE or** 

### 21 **I'm giving it to the third party and then** 

### 22 **there's something that says oh, and then**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 114**  **1 results will be reported to DOE within 30**  

### 2 **days. That would really only imply if I** 

### 3 **passed them through the third party.** 

### 4 **If the point there is you -- if** 

### 5 **you want results in DOE's hands by 30 days,** 

### 6 **you can simply say test results to be provided** 

### 7 **to DOE within 30 days. Because it says** 

### 8 **manufacturer's reports, so that implies the** 

### 9 **manufacturer is always doing the test because** 

### 10 **they're the only one doing the initial** 

### 11 **reporting.** 

### 12 **MR. BAUMAN: Okay, and the actual** 

### 13 **third party reports the results to DOE?** 

### 14 **MR. STANONIK: Within 30 days. If** 

### 15 **the third party did it, they've got the data,** 

### 16 **right?** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: Like that?** 

### 18 **MS. DANE: Yes.** 

### 19 **MR. HON: I would like to change** 

### 20 **one a little bit. Completion of test needs to** 

### 21 **have completion of final review of test** 

### 22 **because in 17025 laboratories, the third party**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 115**  **1 has to review the test data and they quite**  

### 2 **often go more than 30 days.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: Would the completion** 

### 4 **of the final review of test data pass some** 

### 5 **time limit like if the test is completed by X** 

### 6 **date, the review has to be completed by Y** 

### 7 **date?** 

### 8 **MR. HON: You could put 30 days --** 

### 9 **MS. DANE: That's kind of hard** 

### 10 **because again because of the Guide 65 is the** 

### 11 **guy that does the test at -- I'm going to say** 

### 12 **you all because that's where our guy is, UL** 

### 13 **does the test. He does his report. He sends** 

### 14 **it up a level and that's where you get the** 

### 15 **independent certification of the test results.** 

### 16 **I can't say how long my guy who might be** 

### 17 **traveling to three or four labs is going to** 

### 18 **take to do three or four people's testing and** 

### 19 **then he's going to send it to Joe in** 

### 20 **certification and Joe might have 50 tests** 

### 21 **sitting there. So I'm hesitant to lock-in** 

### 22 **that, but again, the manufacturers -- our**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 116**  **1 intent is not that the manufacturers will be**  

### 2 **manipulating that data around. That's** 

### 3 **whatever third party we're working with,** 

### 4 **whether it be a group like AHRI that goes to** 

### 5 **the third party or we go directly to the third** 

### 6 **party ourselves.** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: But the bottom line** 

### 8 **is the longer it takes the longer it takes to** 

### 9 **get your product certified?** 

### 10 **MS. DANE: Verified.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: Verified, I mean.** 

### 12 **MS. DANE: We're not supposed to** 

### 13 **certify.** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: But do you have any** 

### 15 **concerns about how long it might take if it's** 

### 16 **a negative?** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: I'm actually very** 

### 18 **sympathetic to this issue.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: That's good. Write** 

### 20 **that down that Laura said that.** 

### 21 **(Laughter.)** 

### 22 **MR. HON: But that's the reason we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 117**  **1 wanted -- I think she's worked through the**  

### 2 **process enough to know how long sometimes** 

### 3 **these things take.** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: Right.** 

### 5 **MR. HON: And we don't want to put** 

### 6 **in a position where we're screaming you guys** 

### 7 **got to get the test results back. We're four** 

### 8 **weeks behind and everybody else isn't doing** 

### 9 **the same testing and we put you in sequence,** 

### 10 **boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, but we can't get** 

### 11 **it all done in time. Then we're scurrying** 

### 12 **around trying to find new test labs.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: It seems to me that** 

### 14 **the reality is that if we have sufficient** 

### 15 **controls on how the results are being handled** 

### 16 **and who is handling them and who the labs are** 

### 17 **conducting the tests, then I would rather them** 

### 18 **do the checks that they need to do and ensure** 

### 19 **the quality of the data rather than the speed.** 

### 20 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip, HTP. It** 

### 21 **has happened previously that you do the tests** 

### 22 **at a third-party lab. They think everything**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 118**  **1 is right. It goes to the other organization**  

### 2 **that oversees the lab. They find an issue and** 

### 3 **you have to repeat the test. So have you** 

### 4 **thought about that or is that covered with** 

### 5 **this scenario?** 

### 6 **MR. HON: Yes, completion of final** 

### 7 **review. That's not a final review completed.** 

### 8 **You just have to go back through another step** 

### 9 **of processes.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: Any other questions** 

### 11 **or concerns on verification schedule? Let's** 

### 12 **go on to base quantity of models.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: Hold on, hold on.** 

### 14 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: I think my main** 

### 16 **observation in this section is that it's all** 

### 17 **a good start, but there is a significant lack** 

### 18 **of information that I think we would want to** 

### 19 **see. And I don't -- and I'm hesitant to say** 

### 20 **that I want to see so and so hands today and** 

### 21 **so and so under this sort of a control,** 

### 22 **because to me that's the kind of thing that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 119**  **1 would be in a program's plan and shouldn't**  

### 2 **necessarily be in the regulations, but we need** 

### 3 **to figure out a way how to specify what all** 

### 4 **those different pieces of information are so** 

### 5 **that DOE is accountable to ensuring that we** 

### 6 **approve all the plans on an even footing.** 

### 7 **MS. DANE: Do you have a summary** 

### 8 **of that?** 

### 9 **MR. HURST: You don't want to** 

### 10 **dictate the process, but you want the elements** 

### 11 **of a good process.** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 13 **MS. DANE: There has to be some** 

### 14 **kind of a list for that put together because** 

### 15 **we're happy to add that if we knew what those** 

### 16 **were. Like are you looking -- what type of** 

### 17 **information are you looking to verify? Is it** 

### 18 **some of the data from the original** 

### 19 **certification or just the performance numbers?** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: So I'm going to talk** 

### 21 **through sort of what I'm thinking as I read** 

### 22 **this.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 120**  **1 MS. DANE: Okay.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: But as I say that I** 

### 3 **think it's going to come across that I want to** 

### 4 **see X, Y, and Z and that's why I'm caveating** 

### 5 **it. It's not that I want to see those things.** 

### 6 **These are the questions that leap to my mind.** 

### 7 **MS. DANE: Okay.** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: So DOE or third** 

### 9 **party will select all models for testing** 

### 10 **during the calendar year. Why does it have to** 

### 11 **be once a year? Why couldn't it be spread out** 

### 12 **over the course of the year?** 

### 13 **I realize that in your particular** 

### 14 **case, there's not that many models being** 

### 15 **selected, so maybe that's part of what was** 

### 16 **factoring in there, but maybe for other** 

### 17 **programs where there's testing more, it** 

### 18 **wouldn't need to be once a year. So that came** 

### 19 **to me to be somewhat limiting.** 

### 20 **MR. HURST: What about if you** 

### 21 **choose at certain times of the year that there** 

### 22 **are guidelines in terms of time to respond?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 121**  **1 Because you set up your production some time.**  

### 2 **It may not be running. If you ask for a --** 

### 3 **I'm making this up -- but residential, if you** 

### 4 **were to ask for a cooling product in the** 

### 5 **middle of November, we may not be running that** 

### 6 **particular product for months.** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: Right, and to me** 

### 8 **that's the kind of thing that would make sense** 

### 9 **for a program to say that for an HVAC program** 

### 10 **we know manufacturers are building during this** 

### 11 **time frame. That is the logical time for the** 

### 12 **selection and testing to be done.** 

### 13 **MR. HURST: To be made.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: So those sorts of** 

### 15 **considerations, manufacturer notified DOE and** 

### 16 **third party of unit availability and proposed** 

### 17 **test schedule within 30 days. I think further** 

### 18 **down there was sort of a breakout between the** 

### 19 **stock and the not stock. Thirty days to me** 

### 20 **for stock seems outrageously long. If the** 

### 21 **products are already in stock I don't see why** 

### 22 **anyone needs 30 days. So sort of more**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 122**  **1 consideration of what is available versus what**  

### 2 **is actually being built to me would make** 

### 3 **sense.** 

### 4 **DOE or third party notifies** 

### 5 **manufacturer within 30 days. That's fine.** 

### 6 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 7 **HTP. The 30 days for stock, keep in mind** 

### 8 **we're going to be held to these regulations** 

### 9 **even with the document coming up for water** 

### 10 **heaters, residential and commercial water** 

### 11 **heaters with the unified correlations study** 

### 12 **and all that. We're going to have different,** 

### 13 **whatever test method changes, everything,** 

### 14 **right?** 

### 15 **We're not going to be in a** 

### 16 **position where we can drop everything we're** 

### 17 **doing every time to meet these needs. So with** 

### 18 **30 days' time, we can plan to complete jobs** 

### 19 **and work in a verification unit.** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: So again, I'm saying** 

### 21 **that those are the kinds of things that I** 

### 22 **think it would be helpful to us if the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 123**  **1 document reflected we've considered this and**  

### 2 **this is what we think. I know that there are** 

### 3 **a lot of discussions going on within your** 

### 4 **groups and I haven't been sitting in the room** 

### 5 **in all the groups all the time, so I don't** 

### 6 **know. So I'm raising issues. Maybe you've** 

### 7 **thought about them already and you've** 

### 8 **considered them, but I think we're going to** 

### 9 **need to get more of that fleshed out on the** 

### 10 **record as to how you arrived at this because** 

### 11 **again, this is just my reaction and 30 days** 

### 12 **seems like a really long time for something** 

### 13 **that's in stock.** 

### 14 **MR. SACHS: Laura, this is Harvey** 

### 15 **and it will surprise Phillip, but there really** 

### 16 **is going to be a transitional issue for** 

### 17 **smaller water heaters that he's raised. A lot** 

### 18 **of us in the room are guilty of having been** 

### 19 **part of that.** 

### 20 **(Laughter.)** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: Is that your** 

### 22 **innocent look?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 124**  **1 MR. STANONIK: I'm trying.**  

### 2 **(Laughter.)** 

### 3 **MR. SACHS: So there are going to** 

### 4 **be some things which do have transitional** 

### 5 **issues and AHRI is working on this correlation** 

### 6 **problem that Phillip has raised, but I** 

### 7 **certainly don't have his ability to know just** 

### 8 **how much of an impact will have.** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: But that does raise** 

### 10 **an interesting issue that probably everybody** 

### 11 **should think about because this would apply** 

### 12 **across the board is how should standard** 

### 13 **changes or test procedure changes factor into** 

### 14 **scheduling and verification testing cycles,** 

### 15 **that kind of thing.** 

### 16 **MR. STEPHENS: Regulatory burden.** 

### 17 **(Laughter.)** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: I was thinking about** 

### 19 **it from a more pragmatic perspective.** 

### 20 **MR. FERRIOL: Brian with UL. I** 

### 21 **just have a follow-up question to Phillip.** 

### 22 **Were you saying, Phillip, that if you have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 125**  **1 units in stock and they're on the selection**  

### 2 **list that you received from DOE that you need** 

### 3 **more than 30 days to accommodate somebody to** 

### 4 **show up and pick from stock. I didn't follow** 

### 5 **you.** 

### 6 **MR. STEPHENS: I'm not saying that** 

### 7 **specifically. I can't speak for the other** 

### 8 **manufacturers, but our lab time we have every** 

### 9 **station scheduled for a month in advance.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: So I read the** 

### 11 **proposed test schedule, not to be a "I will** 

### 12 **have completed my testing within 30 days," I** 

### 13 **took that to mean that you're just reporting** 

### 14 **back this is when I plan to have things tested** 

### 15 **which is why 30 days to me seems like a long** 

### 16 **time it say well, I've got a bunch of stuff in** 

### 17 **stock, but I can't tell you when I'm going to** 

### 18 **test it for 30 days.** 

### 19 **MR. STEPHENS: Well, the problem** 

### 20 **is we review our schedules once a month for** 

### 21 **the upcoming month.** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 126**  **1 MR. STEPHENS: So at some point**  

### 2 **most of the time yes, it's going to be less** 

### 3 **than the 30 days, but if you hit it at the** 

### 4 **wrong time, then we'll have to pull a meeting** 

### 5 **up a little bit sooner to figure this out.** 

### 6 **MS. DANE: We can talk about this** 

### 7 **more and figure out something that would be --** 

### 8 **MR. HON: These are simple** 

### 9 **logistics issues.** 

### 10 **MS. DANE: Right.** 

### 11 **MR. BAUMAN: With your question on** 

### 12 **A again, you raise the point that we did say** 

### 13 **on purpose and in the discussions include the** 

### 14 **idea that all models, if you're doing one,** 

### 15 **two, four models, you would get that letter of** 

### 16 **notice once a year for all models you have to** 

### 17 **test. I think that's -- I think the idea came** 

### 18 **from the AHRI program is you're notified once** 

### 19 **a year of this is what you have to test, one** 

### 20 **unit, so that you don't have to go through** 

### 21 **multiple iterations and theoretically you** 

### 22 **could if you had a lab capacity in a lab where**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 127**  **1 you can send all those units to a third party**  

### 2 **whenever at the same time, again, trying to** 

### 3 **minimize burden would help to minimize burden** 

### 4 **on the manufacturer if they had that capacity** 

### 5 **to be able to do that. The thought process** 

### 6 **behind there, yes, it was done. And** 

### 7 **similarly, I guess the January 30th date is a** 

### 8 **thought, but the idea for budgeting for some** 

### 9 **companies, too, and such.** 

### 10 **MR. TRITSIS: Laura, Bill with** 

### 11 **AHRI. In our program, at least we have the** 

### 12 **ability to do -- conduct discretionary tests.** 

### 13 **Do you think that DOE would adopt something** 

### 14 **like that, meaning along the --** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: In addition?** 

### 16 **MR. TRITSIS: Yes, during the** 

### 17 **year, you find that you want to test a product** 

### 18 **that you have some information and not** 

### 19 **necessarily enforcement.** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, so in my mind** 

### 21 **that falls under DOE doing a random assessment** 

### 22 **test.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 128**  **1 MR. TRITSIS: Assessment.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I mean I don't** 

### 3 **know why we would require some kind of -- why** 

### 4 **would we put something in the regulation** 

### 5 **governing when we would do discretionary** 

### 6 **testing. To me, that's almost the opposite of** 

### 7 **what would go into a regulation.** 

### 8 **MR. HON: That would also have** 

### 9 **issues further down with the amount of units** 

### 10 **tested in a calendar year.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: The results being** 

### 12 **reported back probably would like more** 

### 13 **information about what exactly was going to be** 

### 14 **reported back to DOE. I think those were the** 

### 15 **main things that kind of leapt out at me as I** 

### 16 **read through that.** 

### 17 **And a lot of it, again, the** 

### 18 **questions that leap to my mind are very much** 

### 19 **logistical questions, but they're the kind of** 

### 20 **-- to me, it's -- particularly with the** 

### 21 **manufacturer-run program concept, the devil is** 

### 22 **in the details on that. It's how do you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 129**  **1 ensure the independence and the checks on that**  

### 2 **where the manufacturer has a bigger role in** 

### 3 **that. And I don't know how we do that. But** 

### 4 **it seems to me it ought to be possible, but** 

### 5 **I'm not exactly sure how that would work.** 

### 6 **MS. MEYERS: My question is what** 

### 7 **is final review of test mean? Who is the** 

### 8 **final -- the tester? What does that mean?** 

### 9 **I'm just curious.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: Usually, there is** 

### 11 **the two-level review and so it's that final** 

### 12 **person of the organization that's basically** 

### 13 **signing off on the test.** 

### 14 **MS. MEYERS: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: And that's within --** 

### 16 **it's manufacturer-run -- it's within the** 

### 17 **manufacturer?** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: No, we don't allow** 

### 19 **the manufacturer to do the verification.** 

### 20 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: The party running** 

### 22 **the program who is actually checking the data**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 130**  **1 and making sure that everything was done**  

### 2 **right.** 

### 3 **MR. HON: 17025 clarification on** 

### 4 **that which includes review.** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: Based on what Laura** 

### 7 **said, does anybody else have anything they** 

### 8 **want to add?** 

### 9 **MR. THARP: I guess a question I** 

### 10 **have, one of the questions in my mind is the** 

### 11 **results being reported to DOE, if it's a** 

### 12 **third-party lab that is running the -- a third** 

### 13 **party running the program and another third** 

### 14 **party doing the testing, does the manufacturer** 

### 15 **have the opportunity to review the data before** 

### 16 **it gets reported to DOE? Because there's** 

### 17 **still have been occasions where after the** 

### 18 **second review at the lab, there was still** 

### 19 **something incorrect somewhere and so like** 

### 20 **within the AHRI program, it goes back to AHRI** 

### 21 **and the manufacturer gets to review the data** 

### 22 **before it's considered a pass/fail.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 131**  **1 (Laughter.)**  

### 2 **If it's a failure, we have the** 

### 3 **opportunity to look at it and say we claim a** 

### 4 **test failure, right? So I want the** 

### 5 **opportunity to make sure that the third party** 

### 6 **has done the job correctly. And make sure I** 

### 7 **agree. There are instances where yes --** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: It shouldn't go from** 

### 9 **final review at the lab directly to the DOE.** 

### 10 **There should be a chance for you to go back** 

### 11 **and say wait, there's a mistake here.** 

### 12 **MR. THARP: As long as the** 

### 13 **manufacturer has the opportunity to review** 

### 14 **within that 30 days before it goes to DOE.** 

### 15 **MR. KOJAK: Because if there's an** 

### 16 **issue with the equipment, like a manufacturing** 

### 17 **defect, that would only be if there's a** 

### 18 **failure.** 

### 19 **MS. DANE: Right. I think -- I'd** 

### 20 **like to reserve. I mean we could put that in** 

### 21 **there, but I'd like to reserve that we can** 

### 22 **discuss that under invalid rating because we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 132**  **1 address some of our thoughts under invalid**  

### 2 **rating as to how that gets addressed.** 

### 3 **MR. THARP: As an example, perhaps** 

### 4 **the units installed, it's run at incorrect air** 

### 5 **flow or an incorrect charge and the third** 

### 6 **party reviewer misses it, I don't have to go** 

### 7 **and report it to DOE as a failure when the** 

### 8 **test was actually done incorrectly. Right?** 

### 9 **So I think the manufacturer needs** 

### 10 **the opportunity to review that before it gets** 

### 11 **reported to DOE.** 

### 12 **MS. DANE: Could we get to invalid** 

### 13 **-- not skip down there. Could you hold that -** 

### 14 **- reserve that until we get down to invalid** 

### 15 **rating and see if that addresses your concern?** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: Just the last part** 

### 17 **that Laura just typed in takes care of it.** 

### 18 **MR. THARP: As long as that's in** 

### 19 **there for later clarification.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: And then just a** 

### 21 **general comment, of course, we'll all have the** 

### 22 **opportunity to view this document for when we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 133**  **1 come back next time and review it, as long as**  

### 2 **the ASRAC has considered -- correct?** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: So on that issue, I** 

### 4 **think the Department has more of an interest** 

### 5 **in having more information so that if it gets** 

### 6 **signed off by the test lab as a good test** 

### 7 **report and that ultimately somehow and I don't** 

### 8 **know that we actually would be okay with the** 

### 9 **opportunity for somebody to change the result** 

### 10 **of that test, but assuming that there was some** 

### 11 **way to change the result of that test, I think** 

### 12 **DOE would want to have notification of that.** 

### 13 **If the test lab said it was a failure and** 

### 14 **there was some discussion or contest to that,** 

### 15 **DOE would want to know about it.** 

### 16 **MR. THARP: I don't have an issue** 

### 17 **with that. As long as we have the** 

### 18 **opportunity, going back to the example, say it** 

### 19 **was run at an incorrect airflow or incorrect** 

### 20 **charge and incorrect speed TAB and the third** 

### 21 **party, third party final reviewer is looking** 

### 22 **at the data, he may not know that it was**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 134**  **1 supposed to be medium speed TAB when it should**  

### 2 **have been low. And he approves the report** 

### 3 **from what he looks at on the report, but then** 

### 4 **it comes to the manufacturer and they so oh,** 

### 5 **it was run on the wrong speed TAB. Well, that** 

### 6 **needs to go back in the test room, run on the** 

### 7 **correct speed TAB and then whatever the** 

### 8 **results of that get reported to DOE and along** 

### 9 **with it would be oh, by the way, there was** 

### 10 **error on the first test and this is why it was** 

### 11 **rerun.** 

### 12 **MR. HON: There is a built-in** 

### 13 **mechanism for that already in the system** 

### 14 **because the manufacturers, these are** 

### 15 **verification tests that the manufacturers** 

### 16 **contracted, either to be witnessed tested or** 

### 17 **to be done at the lab. There's no reason you** 

### 18 **cannot demand a copy of the test result before** 

### 19 **it is verified by the third party reviewer.** 

### 20 **You would be able to look at it at that point.** 

### 21 **So you would know the results before it was** 

### 22 **verified by the third party.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 135**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so it sounds**  

### 2 **like Rusty is just asking for that to be** 

### 3 **explicit.** 

### 4 **MR. THARP: I want it to be** 

### 5 **explicit.** 

### 6 **MR. HON: But you agree that that** 

### 7 **is something you can do with a third party** 

### 8 **doing your test data.** 

### 9 **MR. THARP: So you're saying a** 

### 10 **third party is doing the testing. They run** 

### 11 **the root tests. I get to review the results,** 

### 12 **basically in parallel with their final review** 

### 13 **and if I find something, then we have the** 

### 14 **opportunity to discuss what the issue is and** 

### 15 **go back and rerun the test if necessary.** 

### 16 **MR. BAUMAN: I think you almost** 

### 17 **get into the question of if it's valid --** 

### 18 **potentially may be an invalid --** 

### 19 **MR. THARP: That would also be** 

### 20 **true if you guys were conducting the test in** 

### 21 **your own facility being witnessed because** 

### 22 **let's say you have a new technician or you've**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 136**  **1 got equipment that's not built properly. Once**  

### 2 **you see your data, you're going to know** 

### 3 **there's an issue and then you want to be able** 

### 4 **to tell the DOE there's an issue somewhere and** 

### 5 **then go through retest either with a new piece** 

### 6 **of equipment or do something different because** 

### 7 **you know there's an issue either with the** 

### 8 **equipment or the set up. So it's either at** 

### 9 **the third party or at your lab.** 

### 10 **MR. THARP: Correct, and the** 

### 11 **testing at a manufacturer's own lab is still** 

### 12 **something I have an issue with. I'm not** 

### 13 **comfortable with it unless going to what Laura** 

### 14 **said, unless there's some very, very detailed** 

### 15 **clarification of how requirements and what's** 

### 16 **going to happen there, do we want Laura or** 

### 17 **Ashley there present?** 

### 18 **MR. HON: The DOE can specify what** 

### 19 **that means because the DOE can say okay, any** 

### 20 **termination of a test prematurely has to be** 

### 21 **reported. Any result of a product which** 

### 22 **showed bad and was found to be defected,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 137**  **1 improperly assembled, loss of charge, has to**  

### 2 **be reported to DOE, so that any time you start** 

### 3 **a test, any failure, potential failure in** 

### 4 **there would be reported to DOE, does that meet** 

### 5 **what you would want out of the system?** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: That sounds like a** 

### 7 **yes.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: Can you speak up,** 

### 9 **Joe?** 

### 10 **MR. SANDERS: Yes, sir. Mary can** 

### 11 **elaborate on this, but many of us have testing** 

### 12 **programs with UL or ETL where we have a scope** 

### 13 **of work covered and that scope would include** 

### 14 **the ASHRAE 72 test, meaning it wouldn't make** 

### 15 **possibly a lot of sense for manufacturers to** 

### 16 **run tests that they haven't been approved to** 

### 17 **run or qualified to run for. Mary can** 

### 18 **elaborate more than me talking over the phone.** 

### 19 **(Laughter.)** 

### 20 **MS. DANE: I guess I'm not sure** 

### 21 **where you're going with the point. I mean I** 

### 22 **know that I've been saying that we're**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 138**  **1 approved.**  

### 2 **MR. SANDERS: Excuse me. The** 

### 3 **point was is there seems to be concern about** 

### 4 **manufacturers not knowing how to run these** 

### 5 **tests.** 

### 6 **MS. DANE: Oh.** 

### 7 **MR. SANDERS: And that for a lot** 

### 8 **of these testing groups you all are ETL, in** 

### 9 **order to run the tests in your lab they have** 

### 10 **to say -- know enough. I heard somebody** 

### 11 **talking about a new technician.** 

### 12 **MS. DANE: Right, right.** 

### 13 **MR. SANDERS: These technicians** 

### 14 **are called out by names in these reports.** 

### 15 **MS. DANE: Yes, they are.** 

### 16 **MR. SANDERS: It's just not the** 

### 17 **Charleston Lab approved. It's a so-and-so** 

### 18 **person with a name that's approved, not just** 

### 19 **anybody we hire off the street.** 

### 20 **MS. DANE: I want to say that what** 

### 21 **he might have been alluding to was labs that** 

### 22 **would not be 1725 that would be trying to run**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 139**  **1 testing on their own and because we've already**  

### 2 **said that it would have to be -- that you** 

### 3 **can't do a test at a manufacturer's lab unless** 

### 4 **that lab is 1725. That should answer that** 

### 5 **concern.** 

### 6 **MR. SANDERS: It should answer a** 

### 7 **whole slew of these concerns. Maybe that's** 

### 8 **what needed to be said is that these labs need** 

### 9 **to be 17025 approved for the scope of the** 

### 10 **product being evaluated.** 

### 11 **MS. DANE: Right, and it does say** 

### 12 **that Joe at the beginning and I say that quite** 

### 13 **often.** 

### 14 **MR. SANDERS: It wasn't up here on** 

### 15 **the board here today because I've been sitting** 

### 16 **here the whole time.** 

### 17 **MR. BAUMAN: That was more in** 

### 18 **regards to the -- if you're using a third** 

### 19 **party program, yes, maybe we need some more** 

### 20 **details on the requirements for the third** 

### 21 **party doing the testing, if you add a third** 

### 22 **party to do the testing. I was thinking that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 140**  **1 was kind of covering some other thing we had**  

### 2 **discussed, but we can absolutely add more** 

### 3 **clarification on that.** 

### 4 **MS. DANE: We'll add more to** 

### 5 **clarify for you, Joe, but we had already** 

### 6 **discussed that and we're moving from that** 

### 7 **assumption.** 

### 8 **MR. SANDERS: I'm fine with that.** 

### 9 **It was the other questions that were being** 

### 10 **posed by other people in the room there.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: Should I make a note** 

### 12 **here?** 

### 13 **MR. HON: It's up above. Make** 

### 14 **sure you make a note.** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: Anything further on** 

### 16 **this issue?** 

### 17 **MR. TRITSIS: Just a general** 

### 18 **question. This is Bill from AHRI. Laura, how** 

### 19 **do you envision DOE's involvement in this** 

### 20 **process, and not only the identification, but** 

### 21 **I guess what we have seen so far? Do you see** 

### 22 **DOE following the model of EPA here?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 141**  **1 I hear you're making a lot of**  

### 2 **decisions. You are managing, in essence, the** 

### 3 **full process.** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: I guess I'm looking** 

### 5 **at this as this is the CRE group's idea of how** 

### 6 **it would work and I think I need to think some** 

### 7 **more about how DOE's role would fit into this.** 

### 8 **I think that there are places where it says** 

### 9 **DOE will do things that we would rather have** 

### 10 **a third party where it says DOE or a third** 

### 11 **party. I think we would rather it be a third** 

### 12 **party, but I don't -- at this point I'm just** 

### 13 **not prepared to say DOE won't provide those** 

### 14 **functions.** 

### 15 **MR. HON: That can be part of our** 

### 16 **test plan, our own plan system. We can** 

### 17 **negotiate that with DOE and say okay, who will** 

### 18 **pick these units?** 

### 19 **MR. KOJAK: I remember a couple** 

### 20 **months back in one of our meetings when we** 

### 21 **were talking about this. It was said that the** 

### 22 **management, either the manufacturer or the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 142**  **1 third party would actually come up with the**  

### 2 **selections. But if the DOE wanted to go after** 

### 3 **a certain section that they saw wasn't tested** 

### 4 **for a while or they wanted to see something** 

### 5 **done, then they have the ability to give that** 

### 6 **input and then those would be selected within** 

### 7 **a certain grouping instead of just -- you** 

### 8 **won't have input all the time. You would just** 

### 9 **see what was being selected.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: That was definitely** 

### 11 **discussed. I remember people talking about** 

### 12 **that. I am much less comfortable with the** 

### 13 **manufacturer making the selection themselves.** 

### 14 **MR. BAUMAN: That was not the** 

### 15 **intent of what we were saying.** 

### 16 **MS. DANE: Right, and we just** 

### 17 **didn't want to shut you out of it, so we've** 

### 18 **left it as four.** 

### 19 **MR. HON: There's two things going** 

### 20 **on here. Number one is it allows the** 

### 21 **manufacturer to avoid the cost of a 17065** 

### 22 **program, but still deal with the 17025 program**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 143**  **1 of certification. It's just a cost savings.**  

### 2 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip, HTP.** 

### 3 **There are certain situations where even 17025** 

### 4 **doesn't fit, doesn't work. There's a clause** 

### 5 **where they can choose not to cover you, so** 

### 6 **there's a loophole there.** 

### 7 **MR. HON: This is why CRE is** 

### 8 **proposing it for our application. It doesn't** 

### 9 **necessarily transcend to other applications** 

### 10 **and we understand that.** 

### 11 **MR. STEPHENS: What I'm** 

### 12 **recommending is that you consider a clause for** 

### 13 **a period of time to allow a company that** 

### 14 **doesn't meet those criteria because of the new** 

### 15 **market, new technology, whatever to certify** 

### 16 **until you can build the experience and the** 

### 17 **competence with the 17025 body and then you** 

### 18 **can resume business as normal.** 

### 19 **MS. DANE: I think some of our** 

### 20 **internal notes talk about -- I had submitted** 

### 21 **some stuff to the DOE and to some of the** 

### 22 **members of CRE, or to the members of CRE,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 144**  **1 talking about allowing competence to be built**  

### 2 **not only just through the energy, but when we** 

### 3 **take part and again, I'll use the terminology** 

### 4 **of you all because that's who we're certified** 

### 5 **with is under the client data test program, we** 

### 6 **have a scope of standards that we have to** 

### 7 **build competence to. That includes the energy** 

### 8 **efficiency standards.** 

### 9 **So what we want to be able to** 

### 10 **allow manufacturers who are new coming into** 

### 11 **the energy efficiency is that if they have --** 

### 12 **if they're already certified and they're** 

### 13 **adding that scope that they get some credit** 

### 14 **for having been part of an industry program or** 

### 15 **a supervised program for some time up to that** 

### 16 **point. So while it doesn't say it in this** 

### 17 **final thing, it's in the beginning of our** 

### 18 **notes and if that's something you would like** 

### 19 **to see more in there for something you're** 

### 20 **trying to do we're happy to put that in there,** 

### 21 **but this is just a generalization of what we** 

### 22 **think Laura might want to see and we're happy**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 145**  **1 to have feedback before we go home.**  

### 2 **MR. FERRIOL: This is Brian with** 

### 3 **UL. Phillip, you said certification. I think** 

### 4 **you meant verification.** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, anything to do** 

### 6 **with 17025.** 

### 7 **MR. FERRIOL: Right.** 

### 8 **MR. STEPHENS: I forget which** 

### 9 **clause it is.** 

### 10 **MR. FERRIOL: So the way in the** 

### 11 **past UL has run these types of programs is --** 

### 12 **Mary is right. There's witness testing as a** 

### 13 **starting point to build that confidence to the** 

### 14 **point where it becomes client test which is a** 

### 15 **little bit different. So in a case that you** 

### 16 **mentioned you would have somebody who, let's** 

### 17 **say, hasn't jumped through all the hoops to be** 

### 18 **17025. They can be on the witness test and I** 

### 19 **don't know if this is going to hold up for the** 

### 20 **DOE requirements, but I'm just saying what's** 

### 21 **been used in the past with regard to Energy** 

### 22 **Star and NRCan and safety certification is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 146**  **1 okay, there's an option still open for you for**  

### 2 **witness testing where you don't have quite the** 

### 3 **hoops that you have had to jump through in** 

### 4 **order to meet the client test where witness is** 

### 5 **not necessary. So there's that option open** 

### 6 **and then you can build the competence and the** 

### 7 **experience and learnings to get to that next** 

### 8 **point. Does that help answer the question?** 

### 9 **MR. STEPHENS: I think so.** 

### 10 **MR. FERRIOL: Okay.** 

### 11 **MR. BALLO: One thing I just** 

### 12 **wanted to flag to make sure you were thinking** 

### 13 **about it is anything you submit to DOE, what** 

### 14 **is the public access to that information?** 

### 15 **Would it go -- would DOE then put it on its** 

### 16 **website or would it have to be subject to a** 

### 17 **FOIA request?** 

### 18 **MS. DANE: Are you asking about** 

### 19 **our test results because our test results** 

### 20 **would be held by our third-party lab.** 

### 21 **MR. BALLO: The reports, but the** 

### 22 **results would be sent to DOE and those would**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 147**  **1 be either made available or they could be a**  

### 2 **FOIA request.** 

### 3 **MR. AMRANE: Result of what?** 

### 4 **Pass/fail or the test report.** 

### 5 **MR. BALLO: That's what I'm** 

### 6 **asking. This is something --** 

### 7 **MS. HOOTMAN: You should be saying** 

### 8 **what needs to be on that report.** 

### 9 **MR. HON: We have two different** 

### 10 **issues I think here. Number one is what has** 

### 11 **to be on the test report. Number two is will** 

### 12 **all those numbers be public data published** 

### 13 **because everybody in this room is eventually** 

### 14 **going to -- if we do verification testing,** 

### 15 **we'll be making additional reports to DOE and** 

### 16 **that's a far broader scope that I think DOE** 

### 17 **has to do as a -- this is the way we handle** 

### 18 **it. It can't just be CRE at this level.** 

### 19 **MS. DANE: Right.** 

### 20 **MR. HON: I think that's a serious** 

### 21 **question for everybody because we may have** 

### 22 **different items that we report, but it's not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 148**  **1 going -- DOE still has the responsibility**  

### 2 **across the board I think.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: Anything else on this** 

### 4 **issue? Why don't we break for lunch and get** 

### 5 **back here by 1 o'clock.** 

### 6 **(Whereupon, at 12:29 p.m., the** 

### 7 **meeting was adjourned)** 

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93:4,11,12 96:10 115:10 67 3:18 7 72 137:14 8 8:30 1:14 8:334:2 8:36 6:219 9:13 6:22 9074:13 9274:12NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 167

Commercial HVAC, Water Heating and Refrigeration Equipment W/G

US DOE

09-12-13

Washington, DC