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66–808 2011

COMMITTEE FUNDING FOR THE 112TH CONGRESS 

(DAY 2) 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON HOUSE 

ADMINISTRATION 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED TWELFTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

Held in Washington, DC, March 2, 2011 

Printed for the use of the Committee on House Administration 

( 

Available on the Internet: 

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/house/administration/index.html 


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COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION 

DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California, Chairman 

GREGG HARPER, Mississippi 

PHIL GINGREY, M.D., Georgia 

AARON SCHOCK, Illinois 

TODD ROKITA, Indiana 

RICHARD NUGENT, Florida 

ROBERT A. BRADY, Pennsylvania, 

Ranking Minority Member 

ZOE LOFGREN, California 

CHARLES GONZALEZ, Texas 

PROFESSIONAL STAFF

PHILIP KIKO, Staff Director 

JAMIE FLEET, Minority Staff Director 


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COMMITTEE FUNDING FOR THE 112TH 

CONGRESS (DAY 2) 

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 2, 2011 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION, Washington, DC. 

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:40 a.m., in room 

1310, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Daniel E. Lungren 

(chairman of the committee) presiding. 

Present: Representatives Lungren, Harper, Gingrey, Schock, 

Nugent, Rokita, Brady, Lofgren, and Gonzalez. 

Staff Present: Phil Kiko, Staff Director and General Counsel; 

Peter Schalestock, Deputy General Counsel; Kimani Little, Parliamentarian; Joe Wallace, Legislative Clerk; Yael Barash, Assistant 

Legislative Clerk; Salley Wood, Communications Director; Karin 

Moore, Elections Counsel; George Hadjiski, Member Services Staff; 

Richard Capetto, Member Services Staff; Jamie Fleet, Minority 

Staff Director; Kyle Andersen, Minority Press Secretary; Matt 

Defreitas, Minority Professional Staff Member; Khalil Abboud, Minority Elections Staff; and Thomas Hicks, Minority Elections Counsel. 

The CHAIRMAN. All right. The committee is back in session to 

hear from the Ways and Means Committee chairman and ranking 

member about their work for this year and the budget. We have 

all of the voluminous material that you have sent to us on personnel, on oversight, on other expenditures. If you have a prepared 

statement, that would be part of the record. But we are very interested in seeing what you have to say. Thank you for coming. 

STATEMENT OF THE HON. DAVE CAMP, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 

CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 

Mr. CAMP. Thank you. Good morning, Chairman Lungren, Ranking Member Brady and members of the committee. I am here today 

to present the proposed budget for the Committee on Ways and 

Means for the 112th Congress, and I am joined by our ranking 

member and my friend from Michigan Mr. Levin. 

In accordance with our committee rules, the members of the 

Ways and Means Committee have already met and approved the 

budget before you. Before we get into the details of the budget, I 

would just like to make a couple of points. 

First and foremost, this budget reflects our Nation’s current financial problems and the sacrifices many Americans have been 

forced to make as the unemployment rate has been stuck at or 

about 9 percent for nearly the last 2 years. Just as these families 


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have had to cut back, we think it is appropriate for the committee 

to cut back. As such, we proposed cutting the committee’s budget 

as compared to the last Congress by a total of 5 percent, a savings 

of over $1 million for the American taxpayers. 

Second, I would note that we have held flat the number of staff 

allotted to the committee and have reduced the funding allocated 

toward staff salaries. 

That concludes my statement. I would be prepared to answer any 

questions that the committee may have. 

[The statement of Mr. Camp follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Levin. 

STATEMENT OF THE HON. SANDER M. LEVIN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 

Mr. LEVIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Brady and your colleagues. 

On behalf of the minority, I express full support for this budget. 

We were fully consulted. It represents the cut that Mr. Camp has 

suggested. As you can see, our funding goes very much for salaries, 

and we receive our full share. 

I would just like to add, I did leaf through a lot of this detail, 

or some of it, and I just want to add—I know Mr. Camp believes 

this fully—our staffs work very, very hard, and everybody should 

understand the long hours that they undertake to work on behalf 

of the committee within the rules that are incumbent upon us. 

I just want to add that because Mr. Camp and I have been working with the staffs over the years, and I don’t want to say it is the 

hardest-working staff, because your staff would not like me to say 

that, but there is no staff that works harder than the Ways and 

Means Committee. 

So I join in urging your support of this proposal. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. 

[The statement of Mr. Levin follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. You allocate your resources between majority 

and minority in a way that is satisfactory to the two of you? 

Mr. LEVIN. Yes. 

Mr. CAMP. We do. Historically it has always been a one-third/ 

two-third ratio. That was the allocation when I was in the minority. That is the allocation now that I represent the majority. We 

have had a tradition of that on the committee, and that continues. 

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any shared staff? 

Mr. CAMP. Shared staff with other committees? Between ourselves? 

The CHAIRMAN. No, professional staff. Or is it all majority and 

minority? 

Mr. CAMP. Responsibilities are divided along majority and minority, but they do work closely together, developing important legislation. So there is a lot of consultation between the staffs. 

The CHAIRMAN. And the 5 percent decrease in funds, where specifically or mostly did you achieve your savings? 

Mr. CAMP. We reduced our personnel costs. We held flat our 

number of filled staff positions. We limited some underlying budget 

items, specifically equipment and travel, and we streamlined some 

of our processes to better utilize electronic resources. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Levin. 

Mr. LEVIN. That is what we did. Obviously we had a loss of personnel. This has happened before, and the two staffs worked together. You will see this detailed. It took a long period of time to 

put it together. It was done so carefully with maximum attention 

to efficiency. 

The CHAIRMAN. Have you been able to utilize technology to create some of those efficiencies? Some of the committees have come 

in and talked about the technology fixes they had last year which 

they think will assist them during this Congress. 

Mr. LEVIN. We will be using advanced videoconferencing and 

chat technology that will allow some interaction via secure on-line 

areas, which I think will in turn help reduce some of the e-mails, 

phone calls, face-to-face meetings, allowing Members and staff to 

utilize resources better. So we do intend to do that. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Brady. 

Mr. CAMP. I did also want to mention, we will use video-streaming services for publishing live and archived video of committee activities. That will be a new activity this year. 

Mr. BRADY. Good morning, Chairman, Ranking Member. Thank 

you for appearing in front of us today. I have no questions. 

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Mr. Harper. 

Mr. HARPER. No questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mrs. LOFGREN. No questions. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Nugent. 

Mr. NUGENT. No questions. 

The CHAIRMAN. This is relatively painless. 

Mr. BRADY. You know, when we have no money to give extra, it 

is really painless. If we had some money to give out, we would be 

much more important. 

Mr. CAMP. Thank you. I just also wanted to second what Sandy 

said, about how hard-working the staff is, in both preparing these 

documents, but also throughout the year. I do think we have folks 


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that are very dedicated to trying to do the people’s business in the 

best way possible. 

The CHAIRMAN. I appreciate that, and I appreciate the fact that 

we have received the documentation for the work that you do. We 

have got to prove to the American people that we are doing a good 

job, and that we are getting value out of the taxpayer dollars we 

are spending, and that is why we go through this exercise. Every 

committee has come before us having filled out the forms, given us 

the information, allowed us to go through it, and it is a situation 

this year where we are not in a position of looking at enhancing 

any budgets whatsoever. Everybody has come to us with a 5 percent cut, although I will say Judiciary Committee, on which I 

serve, actually came in with over a 10 percent cut, but that is because they had some additional funds they had to use last year for 

impeaching judges, and thus far we haven’t found any judges we 

want to have come before us that way. 

I thank both of you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Good morning. Welcome to the chair and ranking 

member. We have your written submissions, if I can get to it, dealing with your personnel costs, oversight, other costs, consulting 

contracts and so forth. If you have written statements, they will be 

made part of the record. We would also like to hear from you. So 

you can tell us how well the two of you work together, and how 

well the committee is doing, and how you are going to manage with 

a 5 percent cut. 

Ileana. 

STATEMENT OF THE HON. ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you very much, Chairman Lungren, 

thank you Ranking Member Brady and members of the committee 

for the opportunity for Howard and me to appear before you. 

If we are to provide for our Nation’s security, we must also be 

able to effectively address not just the immediate threats, but also 

learn from the developments such as the recent turmoil in the 

broader Middle East, prioritize our efforts toward preventing the 

emergence of future threats, and as our oversight plan denotes, we 

have a robust agenda planned for the 112th Congress to properly 

assess, develop and implement legislative strategies that are going 

to help us achieve those desired objectives. 

We believe, given the sizable surplus the committee had last 

year, that we can accomplish this ambitious goal despite the reduced budget for this Congress. The budget of the Committee on 

Foreign Affairs reflects the 5 percent cut in spending from the combined 2-year total budget from last Congress, and it reflects the 

high esteem that I hold for my good friend, my colleague from California, Ranking Member Berman, and the respect for minority 

rights through a majority-minority distribution that better guarantees minority access to one-third of the committee’s resources and 

provides the minority with an enhanced personnel budget allocation over which they have full control. 

The committee’s budget clearly illustrates a renewed emphasis 

on oversight, transparency and accountability by allocating greater 

resources for new media, investigative travel and field hearings. 


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The field hearings are also aimed at involving the American people 

more directly in the discussion of our U.S. foreign policy, our policy 

priorities, our international affairs budget. 

In furtherance of this more responsive approach to the work we 

perform, the main committee Web site now has a new interactive 

feature called ‘‘Your Seat on the Dais,’’ and we are changing it to 

‘‘You Ask the Question,’’ which is more direct. This feature allows 

members of the public to submit questions that they would like to 

have answered by the panelists who are appearing before us, and 

the committee will review the submissions, and some of the questions will be selected by our members, who will then ask the question on behalf of the submitter during the hearing. We tried that 

yesterday when Secretary of State Hillary Clinton appeared before 

our committee, and that worked well. 

The majority staff now boasts an oversight and investigative 

team comprised of a chief counsel and two other full committee 

staff members, in addition to the staff of the Subcommittee on 

Oversight and Investigations. We have also instituted an oversight 

referral process similar to the legislative referral mechanism, and 

have added an interactive feature on our main committee Web site 

for whistleblowers to help us identify waste, fraud and abuse in the 

programs and the operations under the committee’s areas of jurisdiction. 

With respect to the House Democracy Partnership and the Tom 

Lantos Human Rights Commission, which fall under the committee’s jurisdiction, the travel and hearings of these two committees 

are now more closely coordinated with and integrated into the committee’s activities. The committee budget reflects administrative 

costs for these two entities. 

Salary for the two dedicated House staff members for the House 

Democracy Partnership are paid in full from the Republican majority salary allotment. In honoring the memory and legacy of our 

dear colleague and deceased past chairman of the committee, Tom 

Lantos, the Republican majority funds a designated staff position 

for Chairman Wolf on the Tom Lantos Human Rights Commission. 

Further, with respect to interparliamentary groups, we are undertaking a rigorous review of the accounts of these IPGs and identifying excess funds towards returning them immediately to the 

Treasury. The American people are forced to make difficult choices 

to keep their fiscal house in order. We in turn need to focus on how 

to do more with less in the running of our respective committees 

and approach our review of programs, agencies and budgets under 

our jurisdiction with the same mind-set, doing more with less, and 

I believe that our funding resolution reflects this commitment. 

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Brady 

and members of the committee. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for the presentation. 

[The statement of Ms. Ros-Lehtinen follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. Howard. 

STATEMENT OF THE HON. HOWARD L. BERMAN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 

Mr. BERMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and my 

thanks to both you and Ranking Member Brady and your staffs for 

the assistance they have provided to the minority staff of the Foreign Affairs Committee in all of this. I want to particularly thank 

not in the pro forma way we sometimes thank our colleagues, but 

particularly a really heartfelt thanks to our Chairman, Ileana RosLehtinen, and to her staff director, Dr. Yleem Poblete, for really 

helping us to shape a budget request that I think is fair. 

Switching from the majority to the minority is always difficult. 

I hear if it doesn’t kill you, it makes you stronger, but it has been 

especially challenging as a result of the decision to reduce the 

budget from last year’s number, as the chairman mentioned, and 

straight-line the budget into next year. But Congresswoman RosLehtinen has been very, very helpful in providing assistance that 

our staff needed to make the transition, and I do appreciate her 

generosity. 

As was the case with the minority in previous Congresses, we anticipate coordinating well with the chair on receiving one-third of 

all nonpersonnel expenses in each expense category, travel, communications and equipment upgrades. 

The chairman intends to hold a number of field hearings, which 

I think is a good idea, and I am hoping to be able to make as many 

as I can, and I look forward to working with her on a bipartisan 

basis. You can imagine in foreign affairs you have a range of 

issues, and we will have some differences, but on a bunch of the 

core issues, I think there is a basis for a bipartisan approach, and 

we want to work closely. I am proud to be a cosponsor of the funding resolution for our committee. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

[The statement of Mr. Berman follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. These are public hearings, so some members of 

the American public get a chance to see what our committees do, 

and one of the areas of easy criticism is Members traveling overseas. I just returned on a congressional delegation headed up by 

one of your Members, Congressman Manzullo, and we were in New 

Zealand and Australia. And the refrain we heard from the members of the government there was, we don’t see you people often 

enough. You are important players—that is, the United States—in 

this part of the world, particularly with the rise of China. We need 

to hear from you, we need to see you, we need to talk with you, 

you need to see what we have here. 

It impressed on me the need that we have for visits of this Congress with Members of Parliament and the governments in countries like that, and it was very obvious they thought it was important that we are there. They are both small, but very important allies. 

Maybe you could talk about, even with the 5 percent, what your 

committee plans to do with respect to that kind of thing. You mentioned the interparliamentary groups and any excess funds going 

back to the Treasury. But why do we have those, what do you anticipate doing this year, and how do you do it majority to minority? 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Well, we have a very good working relationship, as you can surmise from our presentation here. We help set 

up the bipartisan part of the trips. And Members are interested in 

all hosts of issues, as Howard pointed out. In certain areas there 

is more interest than others because of their home districts. 

I know in your trip, Mr. Chairman, you left that area just 2 

hours, 21⁄2 hours before that devastating earthquake. So that was 

an incredible experience. We have heard from Mr. Manzullo when 

he came back from the trip, he tells us about the positive and the 

negative aspects of the trip. 

As you know, the funding comes from the State Department 

budget itself, but we help coordinate the travel, we make sure that 

there is representation from both parties and the staff is present, 

so we provide the working staff to help facilitate the meeting. So 

we help in all kinds of coordination of the travel arrangements and 

the monies that come from the State Department budget. 

But as of now we have had no difficulty. There have been no 

problems. Members are not making any outrageous requests. They 

know that this is not the same kind of economic environment as 

before, so they are cognizant of that, and no one is making any requests that would be outlandish. 

We are dealing with these interparliamentary groups where 

other Members outside of our committee are very involved, and we 

want to make sure that we bring down the cost of those in every 

opportunity that we can. 

So, more with less, that is our mantra, and that includes trips 

as well. 

The CHAIRMAN. Ranking Member Berman, you might be interested to know in our conversations with the parliamentary leaders 

in both countries, we raised the issue of intellectual property; that 

there were efforts afoot in both of those countries to attack the notion of intellectual property as we understand it here that would 

put American businesses in jeopardy. There is a proposal before the 


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New Zealand Parliament to basically get rid of IP protection for 

software development. 

In Australia, they were considering changing a packaging law 

with respect to tobacco by way of basically getting rid of the trademark protection. We indicated to them that we understood what 

they were doing in the area of tobacco, but to utilize the destruction of intellectual property rights as the manner to do it would be 

devastating for developments in the future, and that it was unacceptable as far as we were concerned as Members of Congress. 

Very interesting. It seemed to get their attention. And when they 

realized we had a bipartisan group there, and that we agreed on 

this, their response was, we better go back to the drawing board 

and take a look at it. 

Now, I don’t know what the final resolution is going to be, but 

it was very interesting in a timely fashion, just discussing issues 

of interest between our countries, we raised an issue that was extremely important to our economy. 

Mr. BERMAN. Well, this doesn’t surprise me. I could spend a 

great deal of your time, but I won’t, giving specific examples of how 

specific congressional delegations have ended up making a difference on both security issues and on economic issues in terms of 

America’s interests. During my 3 years as chair, I had an opportunity to lead four different CODELs with my then-ranking member and current chair. 

We went to Afghanistan and Pakistan on a very quick, but fascinating and educational trip. On another one that you remember, 

we went to India and Pakistan. We took a trip to four countries in 

Africa and then went to China and Taiwan and South Korea. On 

the issue of the intellectual property, in Taiwan they had done 

some important advances in their intellectual property protection, 

but had sort of ignored the area of digital, and we raised issues 

with of the leadership of the Legislature in Taiwan, and the result 

was they took actions to sort of fill that void, a direct consequence 

being to the benefit of a lot of U.S. intellectual property owners in 

terms of doing business in Taiwan. 

I think it is an essential part of what we do. I think these parliamentary groups done right, avoiding the excesses and carefully 

oversighted and controlled, as the committee is doing now, are 

helpful to American interests. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Brady. 

Mr. BRADY. Just to thank the chairlady and ranking member for 

being here today. I have no questions. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Harper. 

Mr. HARPER. We obviously are having to do more with of less, 

and, of course, looking at the numbers for your committee, you 

know the numbers from the 110th to the 111th was it looks like 

about an 8.4 percent increase. So the number we have now with 

this 5 percent decrease is still more than you had during the 110th. 

Money still is tight, we know, through this term. 

If we get to the 113th and we see we have to scale back even 

more, is this something that you feel like you can figure out a way 

to make work? 


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Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Absolutely we can. If asked to do it again 

and to cut further, we can, and we’re able to do it in a way that 

is fair to the majority and minority. 

Mr. HARPER. Okay. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Lofgren. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Just thank you both for your incredible efforts. In 

terms of travel, I know that it is important, and you bear the brunt 

of that burden because of your committee assignments, and the 

rest of us who don’t have to go do that appreciate your willingness 

to represent our country in that way. 

I do have a question about security in the interparliamentary 

groups. The per diems never go up, so the accommodations degrade 

in terms of the cost. That is okay in terms of where you stay, but 

it is not okay in terms of the security issues. I want to make sure 

if we are sending people off on these missions, which is important, 

that we have got adequate attention to their security. Sometimes 

the security provided by a host country may be a little iffy. 

Can you address that? 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Yes, and you are so right about that. As the 

allotment stays the same or goes down, it means that the places 

that you stay may not have the sufficient security that we would 

need or would like to have. But we coordinate the security not necessarily through the host countries, but through our embassy and 

through their diplomatic channels, so they are always aware of 

where we are and what our needs are, and they are very accommodating to any particular situation. 

In Pakistan, obviously, that is more of a problematic country, so 

we are allotted more protection. In other countries you don’t have 

that security risk. But we coordinate with the diplomatic posts, our 

U.S. diplomats on the ground, and we have not run into any difficulties as of now. 

Ms. LOFGREN. I would say, Mr. Chairman, if that becomes an 

issue for the committee, I, for one, would welcome being told about 

it, because I think if we are going to ask our Members to go off 

and do this for our country, we need to make sure they are safe 

when they do so. 

Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rokita. 

Mr. ROKITA. I have a quick, but, to be quite honest with of you, 

it is kind of a substitute question. So to avoid rebuke from my 

chairman and ranking member, I am going to put it in the form 

of a budget question. 

It is about H1Bs. We have an immigration issue that we talk 

about, but we have one that we don’t talk about. In my district we 

have Purdue and IU, and we spend a great deal of money educating students, only to send them out of our country so they can 

become millionaires in their homeland. I would like to keep these 

folks. 

Does your budget anticipate tackling this issue? I haven’t been 

able to confer with you guys on the floor. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. I will let Howard take care of that because 

he is on Judiciary and has dealt with this for so long. 

Mr. BERMAN. I would love to tackle that issue because I think 

our current situation is crazy from our economic security point of 


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view. The students who are coming and getting postgraduate degrees in sciences and computer science and so many areas that 

could be of tremendous benefit, because of our current immigration 

laws aren’t—even though they would like to—aren’t able to take 

the kinds of employment here that would take that education and 

return it for their benefit, but also for the benefit of American companies. But I have a feeling that were I to tackle that, there would 

be at least two people on this committee who would say, that is Judiciary Committee. 

Mr. ROKITA. Okay. Fair enough. 

Mr. BERMAN. But I think there is a responsive—there are people 

who are quite responsive to the issue you have raised on this committee and on the Judiciary Committee. 

Mr. ROKITA. I will yield back to the chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. All I can say is that the gentlelady from California and I have worked with the gentleman from California for 

many years on this, and we would be happy to enlist additional 

support. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Absolutely. We have a bill in circulation right now. 

We will see you after the meeting. 

Mr. BERMAN. This is a good opportunity. 

The CHAIRMAN. Cosponsorships are available at no cost. 

Mr. Nugent. 

Mr. NUGENT. I have no questions. 

The CHAIRMAN. I want to thank both of you for appearing before 

us and outlining your intentions and the spirit of bipartisanship 

that you have expressed, and also explaining somewhat on the 

record why it is important that you do what you do and how it benefits the people that we serve here. 

Thank you very much. 

This is great. We have the Rules Committee coming 5 minutes 

early. Mr. Dreier, always the gentleman. That is very nice. 

Mr. DREIER. Not always. 

Ms. SLAUGHTER. Yes, he is. 

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I won’t ask Ms. Slaughter for a comment 

on that. 

Thank both of you for coming before us. This is the regular procedure to consider the budget requests of the various committees 

before we offer the omnibus budget resolution. We all are aware of 

the 5 percent that was mandated by the resolution passed on the 

floor of the House, the first order of business that we did. We do 

have your written submissions as to personnel requirements, oversight responsibilities and other costs and your statements, but we 

are very much interested in hearing from you directly. 

So, Mr. Dreier. 

STATEMENT OF THE HON. DAVID DREIER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 

Mr. DREIER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Let me begin, with all due respect to Mr. Brady, saying how 

much I really enjoy this shift here, and it is nice to see Mr. Lungren with the gavel. And to Mr. Harper and my California colleague Ms. Lofgren, with whom I have worked on H1B visas, and 


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Sheriff Nugent, a member of the Rules Committee, it is great to be 

here with my distinguished colleague Ms. Slaughter. 

The request before you continues the tradition of lean funding 

that has characterized the Rules Committee in the past during majorities of both parties, but will still allow us to perform our critical 

institutional role during the months and the years ahead. 

This marks my fifth appearance before this committee as chairman of the Committee on Rules. The Rules Committee is both traffic cop and first responder. We assist the Speaker in moving the 

routine business of the majority as fairly as we possibly can, while 

at the same time standing ready to respond in the event of unforeseen circumstances. This makes serving on the Rules Committee, 

as Sheriff Nugent can attest, simultaneously rewarding and challenging. 

More than any other standing committee, our members and staff 

must be agile to respond to our difficulties endemic to running a 

majority. The budget that our ranking member Ms. Slaughter and 

I have submitted allows us to maintain our ability to meet these 

challenges, while recognizing that all committees must do their 

part to control spending. We are requesting a total budget authority of approximately $6.8 

million, divided equally between this year and next. Because the 

committee has been very judicious in its budget request in the past, 

this request is $357,000 less than the committee received in the 

last Congress, and even about $69,000 less than the committee received in the 110th Congress. This reflects a 5 percent reduction 

from our level granted for the 111th Congress. 

Just over 90 percent of our requested funds goes to personnel 

compensation. The remainder is designated for needed equipment, 

supplies and services. 

Mr. Chairman, this Congress marks an important turning point 

in the Rules Committee’s minority/majority relationship. While in 

the past the minority has controlled a full one-third of the personnel compensation budget along with a third of the staff slots, 

this year marks the first time that the minority will be given full 

control over one-third of the entire budget. 

While there have not generally been issues in the past with the 

minority receiving funding for needed services or equipment, this 

change grants the minority a level of autonomy that neither party 

has previously enjoyed. Now, in the Madisonian spirit of recognition of minority rights, I believe that this is a very important 

change that is long overdue. 

Even with the cuts we made compared to past years, we are still 

funding our important priorities. As we promised in the Pledge to 

America, we have opened the deliberations of the Rules Committee 

to anyone with an Internet connection. 

With of the assistance of the Chief Administrative Officer and 

the Clerk, we now Webcast every hearing and meeting of the committee, and we maintain archives of those recordings on our 

Website. We are involved in a pilot program with the same vendor 

that provides the services to the Clerk’s HouseLive Program. While 

we understand that the CAO is looking into a broader contract 

with a vendor for all committees, we will continue working with 

him individually until that contract is in place. 


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Separately, I have asked your committee to fund the permanent 

installation of audio and video broadcast equipment in our hearing 

room. This will improve the quality of our broadcasts and allow the 

CAO to redeploy the equipment he has loaned the committee to 

other uses. 

We are continuing development of the CORE database and 

workflow automation tool. This custom software was started during 

the 109th Congress and was significantly improved during the last 

4 years. We will be focusing on improving the usability of the system as well as extending its capabilities to integrate it more tightly 

in our Website. 

We are continuing our efforts to improve transparency. We have 

started posting the text of bills and resolutions in the House standard XML format on our Website. We intend to work closely with 

the Office of Legislative Counsel and Office of the Clerk to enable 

the posting of committee reports and amendments in this more 

flexible format as well. 

It is also important to note that the Rules Committee Website is 

serving as the official repository for the text of all legislation to be 

considered on the House floor until your committee designates another official location for these documents. 

In all, I believe that this is a very fair budget, Mr. Chairman. 

It maintains our history of wisely using our resources and providing the House with a very favorable return on its investment. 

I am happy to take any questions. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. 

[The statement of Mr. Dreier follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Slaughter. 

STATEMENT OF THE HON. LOUISE SLAUGHTER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW 

YORK 

Ms. SLAUGHTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am happy to be 

here with you this morning, Ranking Member Brady and other 

members of the committee. It is a pleasure to appear before you 

today with Chairman Dreier to discuss the budget request for the 

Committee on Rules. We fully support the majority’s budget request, which Mr. Dreier has already laid out to you. I think it is 

important to note that the Rules Committee, in spite of its sometimes partisan outward image, is really one of the most collegial 

committees in the House with regard to day-to-day activities. 

Mr. Dreier and I share the unique honor of having served as both 

chair and ranking member of our committee. As such, we share a 

unique insight into the challenges facing both the majority and the 

minority roles, whether it will be handling one of our infamous 

late-night meetings or, more to the point this afternoon, addressing 

the work of the committee. 

With regard to the specifics of the 112th Congress, I want to express my full support for the chairman’s request to reduce the committee’s funding—should I start over? 

Mr. DREIER. No. This microphone is very sensitive. You don’t 

even need a microphone. We can all hear you. 

Ms. SLAUGHTER. It was such a shock. Suddenly this Southern 

voice comes out of this New York woman. 

Mr. DREIER. It is not sudden. It has been going on for a while. 

Ms. SLAUGHTER. That was really quite stunning, to hear that expressed that loudly. 

Anyway, with regard to specifics of the 112th Congress, I want 

to express my full support for the chairman’s request to reduce the 

funding by 5 percent. These are tough economic times. And even 

if Mr. Dreier and I sometimes disagree on the best approach, it is 

clear that we must tackle this ever-growing budget deficit. We need 

to start by setting an example and cutting our own budgets, and 

this request does just that. I am confident that the funds that Mr. 

Dreier has requested will be spent wisely and effectively by both 

the majority and minority. 

We would also like to express our gratitude to the majority for 

allowing the practice of many other committees of giving the minority control over one-third of the committee’s budget for the 

112th Congress. In the past, the Rules Committee majority has 

controlled the entire budget except staff salary. In practice, the majority, whether controlled by Democrats or Republicans, has administered the committee in a collegial, nonpartisan manner. We appreciate the majority’s decision to formalize that tradition in this 

year’s request. 

As we begin the 112th Congress, I am pleased to see the majority’s continued expanding of the transparency initiatives that we 

have started in the last 4 years. We both share the commitment 

to ensuring that the American people have up-to-the-minute access, 

and as ranking member I look forward to working with Chairman 


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Dreier to continue to make the committee transparent, fair and responsible. 

Thank you. 

[The statement of Ms. Slaughter follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, both of you. 

First of all, I appreciate the fact that now you have a one-third/ 

two-thirds split across the board, and I hope that will be the tradition in the future, where it is formalized, as was suggested by the 

ranking member. 

Secondly, when you appeared before us either last year or the 

year before, we had the discussion over cameras in the Rules Committee room, and I am glad that you moved forward on that, and 

that now those hearings are more accessible to the public-at-large 

on a continual and regular basis. I think that is a step forward. 

Mr. DREIER. I would like to note for the record, Mr. Chairman, 

that our first hearing was only a 12-hour hearing following installation of those cameras. 

The CHAIRMAN. I understand that, and I am sure after some people take the makeup off and so forth, they will find out maybe they 

don’t have to say as many words, and that is both members of the 

committee and witnesses. 

Ms. SLAUGHTER. Mr. Lungren, may I say as well, we did always 

allow for cameras at our meeting. We allowed whatever requests 

were made. C–SPAN and other credentialed media were specifically invited and encouraged to attend. We take transparency very 

seriously. We made transcripts available for everybody to review, 

not just Members and the press. 

We customarily held our meetings at 3 or 5 p.m. to maximize attendance and accessibility. We reserved one-third of all hearing 

room seats for the press to improve the ease of coverage. And all 

relevant committee reports were posted on the Website to make 

them more accessible to the public. 

This year the majority decided to install permanent cameras 

rather than rely on the independent media. As ranking member, I 

am happy that has been done. We set some responsible guidelines, 

however. Our rule on our side, which was unanimously adopted, 

ensures coverage of every meeting in full, and that proceedings are 

archived to be made available via the Internet. 

So I remain ready to work with the chairman on transparency. 

The CHAIRMAN. I appreciate that very much. Having been here 

in two different tours, it has always amazed me that one of the 

most important committees in the entire Congress has one of the 

smallest hearing rooms. 

Ms. SLAUGHTER. Isn’t that amazing? Completely airless, too. 

The CHAIRMAN. And airless. 

Ms. SLAUGHTER. No circulation of any sort. 

The CHAIRMAN. I happen to have been here long enough ago to 

actually have been on the floor the first day that C–SPAN started 

filming, and I remember the remarkable change it made, I happen 

to think for the better, that people around the country were able 

to, at the moment things were happening in the House, to be able 

to observe it without having to come here and sit in our galleries. 

I have always thought we ought to extend that as much as possible. That is why I thank your committee for making permanent 

that setting. 

Mr. DREIER. Well, you are right, Mr. Chairman. Let me say the 

Rules Committee up until this point was the only committee in the 

Congress, save the Ethics Committee and Intelligence Committee, 


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for obvious reasons, that did not have full gavel-to-gavel television 

coverage made available. So I am happy we have been able to do 

that. 

The CHAIRMAN. I am not trying to start a fight. I applaud you 

for making progress. 

Mr. DREIER. No, no, I just want to say that in support of the 

ranking member. 

The CHAIRMAN. Indeed. Thanks very much. 

Mr. Brady. 

Mr. BRADY. No, just to thank the chairman and ranking member 

for being here. I appreciate all the good work you do. 

One real quick comment. I have meetings myself in a different 

capacity, being the chairman of the party in the city of Philadelphia, and I have them in the smallest, hottest room. People don’t 

want to stay there that long. Maybe it is a good idea you are a 

small room. 

Mr. DREIER. Just to expand on that, I will tell you when I went 

on to the Rules Committee in 1990, David Broder, the dean of the 

press corps with the Washington Post, said to me that the Rules 

Committee is small by design. He said it is to keep us out. 

So we are trying to bring about a change in that. 

Ms. SLAUGHTER. I would like to make one more point about frugality, David. The chairs we sit in in the Rules Committee were 

purchased in 1967. Chairs have changed a lot since then, but we 

never thought we should spend the money to buy new ones. We 

want to say we are doing our part up there to save money. 

Mr. DREIER. I never gave that any thought. 

The CHAIRMAN. Keep them a little longer. They will qualify as 

antiques. 

Ms. SLAUGHTER. You do if your legs are shorter. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Harper. 

Mr. HARPER. I just want to thank both of you for doing a thankless job, and appreciate the efforts to do more with less. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Lofgren. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Thank you to both of you for your service and all 

of those long meetings. It is not something the rest of us envy, but 

we do appreciate your service. It is terrific. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Nugent. 

Ms. SLAUGHTER. One of us. 

Mr. DREIER. One of those long-suffering Rules Committee members. 

Mr. NUGENT. I always love it. We talk about nonpartisanship, 

and we have an issue rather quickly. But the good part is that actually the budget for the Rules Committee is less than the 110th 

Congress, and that is a phenomenal position to be in. I am glad to 

see that you both can sit at the same table. There are times, obviously, in the Rules Committee that it gets a little contentious. I 

won’t say it is totally—it is partisan, but it is important work. I 

didn’t realize the chairs were as old, but after 12 hours, I will tell 

you, I don’t care what chair we had, it would be old. 

But I appreciate both of your service on that committee, and obviously having sat on it now just for a short period of time, I truly 

do appreciate all that every person that serves on that committee 

does. 


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Mr. DREIER. Thank you very much, Mr. Nugent, for your great 

service on the committee as well. 

The CHAIRMAN. I thank both of you. I appreciate your work, and 

thank you for your submissions. 

All right, the committee now welcomes Chairman Upton and 

Ranking Member Waxman of the Committee on Energy and Commerce. 

We received your submissions, written submissions, on the oversight plan, the issues you are dealing with, your personnel costs 

and other costs, and so forth, and we examined those. If you have 

prepared statements, they will be made part of the record. We look 

forward to hearing from both of you. 

STATEMENT OF THE HON. FRED UPTON, A REPRESENTATIVE 

IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 

Mr. UPTON. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do have a prepared statement. I am not going to read it. I am just going to say 

that not only are we early—— 

The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate that. 

Mr. UPTON. We are better than on time, but we are also complying with the 5 percent cut from the last Congress. It has been 

tough, I will confess that. Not only did we expand our number of 

subcommittees from five to six from the last couple of years, it is 

also very difficult, as we find, to compete for great staff. And I am 

so fortunate that we have done very well. But when you look downtown and first-year law students can make $150,000 without knowing anything, we are a little bit under the gun in that respect. But 

Mr. Harper knows, because he has firsthand knowledge of the key 

folks that we have, being a member of our committee, we have 

done very well. But we have complied with the budget request and 

appreciate your leadership. 

I yield to my friend and ranking member, Mr. Waxman. 

[The statement of Mr. Upton follows:] 


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STATEMENT OF THE HON. HENRY A. WAXMAN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 

Mr. WAXMAN. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Brady, Members, I am pleased 

to be here today to express to you that Chairman Upton and his 

staff have worked with us in a collegial manner in preparing this 

budget. I support this proposal and believe it is fair toward the 

committee minority. 

As you know, our committee has broad jurisdiction. We have a 

lot to do. I want to be sure that we get the implementation of the 

comprehensive health reform law. The Republicans want to take 

the time to repeal that law. We need good staff on both sides on 

that issue. We also need to deal with other responsibilities on other 

matters. 

I would urge you to consider increasing the committee’s funding 

by reallocating some of the funds that went to the Select Committee on Global Warming to our committee. The Energy and Commerce Committee has primary responsibility in the House for examining the public health and energy security issues posed by global warming and greenhouse gas emissions. The chairman and I 

may have different perspectives on these issues, but we fully agree 

that the committee should be spearheading a close review of this 

subject. Some additional resources from the funds from the select 

committee would not increase the overall amount of committee 

funding, but it would help us do our job for the American people. 

So I support the efforts of the chair and urge you to support our 

budget. 

[The statement of Mr. Waxman follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Chairman, can you tell us, do you share jurisdictional responsibility over EPA with the Science Committee, or 

is that not in your bailiwick? 

Mr. UPTON. We would like to think not. Actually though, to be 

completely serious, John Shimkus chairs the Environment and 

Economy Subcommittee, and what we did on our side, and I am the 

former ranking member of the Energy and Environment Subcommittee, and we split the jurisdiction of that former subcommittee into two subcommittees. Ed Whitfield now runs the Energy and Power Subcommittee, the name it was back in the 1970s, 

1980s and some of the 1990s, and John Shimkus runs the Environment and Economy separately. 

Mr. WAXMAN. But the chair is asking a different question between our committee and another committee, Natural Resources. 

Mr. UPTON. No, he said Science. 

The CHAIRMAN. Look, I know it is controversial on both sides on 

EPA. I just want to know whether we have got committees that are 

going to do the oversight of EPA so we can answer some of the 

questions that are being asked of us by our constituents. 

Mr. WAXMAN. We have the primary responsibility for the regulatory parts of EPA when it comes to clean air, and if we were 

doing something on greenhouse gas emissions, it would legislatively come out of our committee. Other committees share part of 

the jurisdiction, Natural Resources, Science Committee. 

The CHAIRMAN. My question is, in terms of oversight, is your 

committee prepared to do the oversight on EPA so that at least— 

and I know it is contentious, but my point is, I would like to be 

able to answer my constituents who ask me questions about EPA, 

what are you guys doing, what are they doing. I would like to know 

as part of your oversight responsibilities, do you take that as a 

charge, and with the 5 percent cut, are you going to be able to do 

that so we can have the kind of data presented to us as a result 

of oversight by your committee and other committees that we can 

make some intelligent decisions? 

Mr. UPTON. The quick answer is yes. In fact, we have Lisa Jackson coming. The Administrator of the EPA is coming again to testify this Friday, I believe. Next Friday. 

The CHAIRMAN. Then the other question I would have is I have 

looked back at committees and what they have not spent in the 

past. Your committee in the past has pretty much had to expend 

all of your resources. So when you take a 5 percent hit, that might 

be more difficult than some other committees. 

How were you able to achieve your 5 percent—I am not suggesting we have any more money, but I would just like to know, 

where did you go to achieve your 5 percent cut? 

Mr. UPTON. Well, since I did not have a role in last year’s budget, 

as being only a ranking member on a subcommittee, we have made 

it work. We took the traditional balance between staff, between 

majority and minority, something that has been around for a long, 

long time, but we were able to come up with a 5 percent cut. 

We have added some technology to our committee from before. 

There are some things that still don’t work. We had microphones 

not work yesterday in one of our hearing rooms. We have been able 

to tighten our belt and make it work. 


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The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Waxman. 

Mr. WAXMAN. Yes. If we this trend of cutting the committee 

budget continues, I think we would face significant staffing gaps. 

We need to oversee health care reform, and move forward on energy independence, food safety, safe drinking water and other important initiatives under our jurisdiction that are critical to the 

health and welfare of our citizens and national economy. If anything, we need more money to help ensure that we can conduct 

thorough review of the laws under our jurisdiction and ensure that 

programs are operating that minimize waste, fraud and abuse. 

So, I am not endorsing the 5 percent cut. I think we have a lot 

to do, and that 5 percent cut would make it harder for us to do our 

job. 

The CHAIRMAN. As I understand it, Chairman Upton, you still 

have 122 slots on your committee? 

Mr. UPTON. I believe that that is correct. 

The CHAIRMAN. I understand the difficulty everybody has, but by 

my count, that is the highest of any committee in the House right 

now. I know we can all find ways to spend our money effectively, 

I guess, is what some would say, but we are under the crunch to 

work with this 5 percent cut, and I appreciate the fact that you 

both have worked on that and that you have, I guess, the one-third/ 

two-third split, majority to minority. 

Mr. Brady. 

Mr. BRADY. Just to thank the chairman and the ranking member 

for being here, and thank you for your courtesy. There are a few 

incidents where I had constituents from the city of Philadelphia 

had to come in front of you. You were most courteous and fair, and 

I appreciate that. 

Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Harper. 

Mr. HARPER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is indeed an honor to 

serve with you—— 

Mr. UPTON. How did you get that waiver? That is what I want 

to ask. 

Mr. HARPER. I don’t know how that happened. But I do want to 

say on the issue of the funding with the 5 percent cut, keep in 

mind that from the 110th to 111th, that was a 12 percent increase 

in funding, and even at the level we are now, you are still almost 

$1.4 million over the 110th level. So money is tight. We are all having to do more with less. 

Is this something—if we get to the 113th Congress, and we realize that we are still having to cut, do you foresee the ability to trim 

back even more than the 5 percent we are doing this year? 

Mr. UPTON. We will obey the rules of the House and what is 

there. We have been able to accommodate the vote that we had 

back in January on the second day that we were in session, and 

I know, and you know, too, that we have a very talented staff. 

When you look at the share of the budget that goes to the staff, 

they help us do our work on both sides. 

We have a very talented staff, and I know under the budget constraints, we will probably have some difficulty in keeping them all. 

I never want them to go away. They are great people. But at some 

point they are likely to depart because of higher salaries, and that 


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is the dilemma that we will be in. We look at so many issues before 

our committee, knowing we have jurisdiction over certainly now the 

energy costs that are there, but the health care costs, telecommunications, commerce, manufacturing and trade, the oversight responsibility that we have. It is tough to lure folks sometimes as we did 

from the private sector coming to work for the committee, and we 

are very glad of the leadership that I have on our top committee 

staffs that we are able to do that. 

Mr. HARPER. Can you meet your oversight responsibilities with 

the current budget? 

Mr. UPTON. I believe we can. I am confident with this budget we 

can do our job. 

The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Lofgren. 

Ms. LOFGREN. No questions. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Schock. 

Mr. SCHOCK. No questions. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Nugent. 

Mr. NUGENT. No questions. 

The CHAIRMAN. That is it. 

Mr. UPTON. On time and under budget. 

The CHAIRMAN. On time and under budget, and out of here early. 

Thank you. 

All right. Thank you for being here early. We are actually moving through rather well, and we appreciate you working with us on 

that. 

The committee now welcomes Chairman Hastings and Ranking 

Member Markey of the Committee on Natural Resources. We have 

the voluminous information that you have supplied us with in 

terms of your oversight plan, your answers to funding questions, 

personnel and other things. If you have a prepared statement, we 

would make that part of the record, but we are anxiously awaiting 

your oral testimony. 

I am not going to say what the ranking member just said a moment ago. Would you like to say that? 

No. Okay. All right. 

Doc Hastings, thanks very much. 

Mr. BRADY. Only that I know I won’t rob a bank. But you know 

more. 

STATEMENT OF THE HON. DOC HASTINGS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WASHINGTON 

Mr. HASTINGS. When I hear you say you are anxiously awaiting 

my statement, I reflect on what my dad used to say: Are you sure 

you are lying? 

Since my full statement will appear in the record, I will just simply say the budget request we submitted to you reflects the 5 percent reduction. We can certainly live with that. 

From a staff standpoint, we are mirroring essentially what we 

did last year when Chairman Rahall and I were here, as far as the 

allocation of staff. We have, I think, six staff that are nonpartisan 

that do all the administrative work, and we divide the rest by twothirds to one-third. That has worked very well on the Resources 

Committee in the past, and we mirror that again. 


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The one area that the budget does reflect is a slight decrease in 

travel. I am not going to say that is problematic, but I think with 

the idea that we need more oversight, the Congress needs more 

oversight in a variety of areas, I am not going to say it is going 

to be problematic, because we certainly are going to live with that. 

Finally, I will simply say while I know my distinguished ranking 

member and I will probably have violent disagreements on policy, 

we agree that this is the proper way to fund our committee, and 

we look forward to working together at least in that respect. 

But now, unless Ed wants to say he is going to agree with me 

and have an epiphany because I am the chairman, I fully accept 

that, too. But in case that doesn’t, we will work certainly in a bipartisan way as far as administration of our committee is concerned. 

With that, I will yield back my time. 

[The statement of Mr. Hastings follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Markey. 

STATEMENT OF THE HON. EDWARD J. MARKEY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS 

Mr. MARKEY. Thank you so much. I agree with Mr. Brady that 

the longer you are in politics, the more you should aspire to a higher percentage of your thoughts going unspoken. It is a good philosophy that he is the epitome of, I should say, in terms of his success 

in politics. 

This is my 35th year on the Natural Resources Committee. It is 

my first as the ranking member. This committee was established 

right after the Louisiana Purchase in order to manage those issues 

here in the United States Congress, and I think that what Doc just 

laid out is an accurate reflection of the relationship which the majority and the minority have. 

We are very happy with the allocation. We think it is a fair division of assets within the committee, and we do share the administrative costs, which I think makes a lot of sense, because much of 

what we do is just to ensure that there is a proper operation of the 

committee. And I think that division of assets works out very, very 

well, and it is done honestly and in a completely nonpartisan basis, 

which I think really does help the overall atmosphere of the committee. 

There is some travel which is necessary for us to do the kind of 

oversight that Doc has laid out as part of the agenda of the committee, but I would say that notwithstanding the partisan differences that are going to exist on particular issues, in general we 

have an excellent working relationship, and I would recommend 

the adoption of the budget as the chairman has recommended it. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

[The statement of Mr. Markey follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. Doc, you mentioned—Mr. Chairman, you mentioned that you were in your budget looking at fewer travel funds. 

Is that where you looked to take most of your 5 percent cut, or did 

you have to do it across personnel as well? 

Mr. HASTINGS. No, it was across the board. But the travel one, 

I won’t by any stretch of the imagination say it is a huge cut. It 

is slightly less. But, no, it was generally across the board is where 

we looked at it. It wasn’t any one particular area. It just turned 

out when we allocated it, that the travel came in less. That is all. 

The CHAIRMAN. In your committee jurisdiction, how much jurisdiction do you have over water resources? 

Mr. HASTINGS. Well, however it relates to public lands, we have 

a great deal. I know in your State it has a huge impact, as it does 

in my State as far as allocating water resources. But generally 

there are other issues that play into that mix, other statutes on the 

Federal books that play into that. But it does affect water issues, 

no question. 

The CHAIRMAN. That is one of my questions. It is important for 

us in California and the West. We have a huge number of issues 

in terms of water allocation. We also have the issue that probably 

is within another committee of when we have made a decision that 

we don’t do earmarks, the question is how do water projects get 

done, and what happens there, because that is a question I am getting from my constituents, and it is a question without an answer 

right now. I hope that in diminishing travel expenses, you being a 

man of the West, you will not forget the importance of the West 

as you look at issues particularly affecting water in our region. 

Mr. HASTINGS. Well, obviously the challenge is to prioritize that 

travel, and I can tell you that we have prioritized the travel to go 

to California to speak to the very issue you are talking about. The 

time and all hasn’t been set, but that is certainly something we are 

going to do, because this is a very serious issue, as you well know, 

to your economy and to certain segments of your economy, especially agriculture in the San Joaquin Valley. 

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we also have the issue right now of contracts that existed for decades with the Bureau of Reclamation having a new determination. I have communities in my district that 

have used the existing reliance on what the law was to figure out 

how best to utilize those resources in an environmentally protective 

fashion, and now they are being told that what they relied on no 

longer exists. 

Mr. HASTINGS. I will tell you as we are speaking right now, the 

Water Subcommittee, chaired by your colleague from California, 

Tom McClintock, they are having a budget hearing right now, and 

these issues are being asked and being probed by Mr. McClintock, 

as they should be. So out of that will come some policy, I am sure, 

that will be developed in that regard. 

The CHAIRMAN. I always remember Mark Twain’s statement: 

Whiskey is for drinking; water is for fighting. 

Mr. HASTINGS. Right. And that there is also another truism that 

is emerging, and that is we shouldn’t ration shortages. We should 

try to find abundance. And it seems to me, some of the policies in 

the past have been exactly that, rationing shortages. 


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The CHAIRMAN. Okay. And I realize this is—talking about your 

budget, I just wanted to make sure that part of the jurisdiction you 

have isn’t going to be slighted, because it really goes down to the 

question of how the people live in my area and whether they are 

able to have a standard of living. 

Mr. HASTINGS. Like I say, it is prioritizing our travel budget, and 

that is high on our priority list. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Brady. 

Mr. BRADY. Just to thank the chairman and ranking member for 

being here today, and keep up the good work. I know you have a 

little bit of constraint with your budget problems, but we know you 

can fulfill them. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Harper. 

Mr. HARPER. Thank you for what you are doing and for your 

service on the committee and leadership. I appreciate you trying to 

do more with less. We will continue to work together. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Lofgren. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Just thanks to both Members. You will have disagreements on policy, but it is nice to see it is not a personal disagreement or a disagreement about how the committee will function itself. So thank you both for that. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Schock. 

Mr. SCHOCK. No questions. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Nugent. 

Mr. NUGENT. Do you have any oversight as it relates to water 

quality, numeric nutrients, EPA? 

Mr. HASTINGS. Well, most of that jurisdiction as far as oversight 

on those issues resides with the Energy and Commerce Committee. 

Now, it intersects with us as it relates to public lands. Where these 

issues intersect with some issues on public lands, then we have a 

say. But primarily it is within the Energy and Commerce Committee. 

Mr. MARKEY. If I could, where, for example, there is fracking 

going on on public lands, and there are water quality issues, of 

course, that would come under the jurisdiction of this committee. 

I think that is where it could begin to affect rivers or drinking 

water that is coming off of public lands because of the drilling, the 

fracking that is occurring on public lands. We would have jurisdiction. 

Mr. NUGENT. In Florida, obviously, there is a large amount of 

public lands that currently have wetlands on them, but also flowing waters. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. I want to thank both of you. You used the term 

‘‘violent disagreements.’’ I would just suggest to you, having played 

basketball with Mr. Markey, well, in the days when he had two 

good Achilles tendons, watch out for the elbows. 

Mr. HASTINGS. Well, in the time we have been together, he hasn’t 

thrown an elbow yet. But thanks for the heads-up. 

The CHAIRMAN. It usually happens in the second half. 

Mr. MARKEY. This is reflecting ancient animosity which all Notre 

Dame people have towards Boston College. 

The CHAIRMAN. No, no, no. I have great respect for people that 

went to BC. We used to refer to it as ‘‘backup college.’’ 


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Mr. MARKEY. No longer. 

The CHAIRMAN. I don’t want to show any disrespect to Mr. Van 

Hollen. 

Mr. RYAN. His staff director is right here, and he is good to go, 

and we agree. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you for showing up. 

We received the submissions that you have in writing about your 

budget, about salaries, et cetera, and that is part of our record. Any 

written statements that you have will be made part of the record. 

We are pleased to hear from you. 

STATEMENT OF THE HON. PAUL D. RYAN, A REPRESENTATIVE 

IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN 

Mr. RYAN. This committee has a long tradition of the majority 

treating the minority fairly. That was the case when John Spratt 

was chairman. We are continuing that tradition, one-third/twothirds, sharing the equipment budget, doing it honestly. Mr. Van 

Hollen’s statement will concur. 

I thank you for this opportunity. I ask unanimous consent that 

my full statement be included in the record. 

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, it will be. 

[The statement of Mr. Ryan follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. The 5 percent cut—— 

Mr. RYAN. We are fine with it. 

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any difficulty with respect to the 

ability that you—— 

Mr. RYAN. No. We have our budget. We can live within the 5 percent cut. I can speak on behalf of both of us that we can do that. 

We have been doing that anyway, so we are good to go. 

The CHAIRMAN. I notice you are one of the committees over the 

last number of years that have had the smallest increase, both the 

smallest request and the smallest increase. 

Mr. RYAN. We try to walk the talk. 

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have the same number of members on 

the Budget Committee this year as was true in the previous Congress? 

Mr. RYAN. Yes. I don’t think the ratio has changed. We are a little bit smaller. The ratio is about the same, but we are a little bit 

smaller. 

The CHAIRMAN. Okay. And staff, you have 66 staff members 

total? 

Mr. RYAN. That sounds about right. 

The CHAIRMAN. Okay. I don’t want to show any disrespect to Mr. 

Van Hollen, but I also don’t want to—— 

Mr. BRADY. We have a statement from Mr. Van Hollen that supports what Chairman Ryan is saying. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Brady. 

Mr. BRADY. Thank you for being here. I appreciate you doing the 

job that you got to do. I know it was not easy. I know you don’t 

enjoy it. But thank you. 

Mr. RYAN. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Gingrey. 

Mr. GINGREY. Mr. Chairman, thank you. 

Chairman Ryan, in regard to the 5 percent, which you said you 

are fine with, and being the Budget Committee, I know that you 

know how to work that out, did it result in any lesser number of 

personnel, full-time equivalents? 

Mr. RYAN. No. We have been living with this savings all along. 

As you know, when you go from minority to majority, obviously the 

majority going into a minority shrinks their staff, and the minority 

going into the majority increases its staff. So putting those changes 

and dislocations aside, this doesn’t hamper our ability because we 

have been frugal all along. 

Mr. GINGREY. In regard to deeper cuts, and, of course, obviously 

some amendments were proffered in regard to even additional 5 

percent across-the-board cuts, was that something that would have 

caused a great deal of heartburn to try to enact after taking a 5 

percent cut? 

Mr. RYAN. It simply depends upon the depth. Obviously, there 

comes a point where then you do start doing layoffs. We have lots 

of printing we do in the Budget Committee. We don’t do lots of 

travel, but there are some. We plan on doing some field hearings 

in the States to get ideas from around the country. Obviously, personnel is the biggest line item in our budget. It depends on how 

deep it gets. 


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I would simply say we do a lot with very few people. We are in 

charge, both the minority and the majority, of crafting the budget 

for the Federal Government not only for this year, but for the next 

10 years. That is a big task. It requires a lot of expertise. And it 

is important that we do this here because we are the legislative 

branch. We don’t want to simply rely on the executive branch to 

have the pen, to have the spreadsheets, to call all the shots. We 

need to have independent expertise here in Congress so we can exercise our constitutional rights under the separation of powers of 

having the power of the purse. 

So with 66 people between the majority and the minority, that 

compares to thousands of people at OMB, 400 to 500 at CBO. So 

we do a lot compared to everybody else with very few people. 

Mr. GINGREY. Indeed you do, Mr. Chairman. I commend you and 

the ranking member for the work you do with very limited resources. 

Mr. RYAN. OMB is not quite 1,000. It is under 1,000. I am sorry. 

I stand corrected. 

Mr. GINGREY. But the importance of what you do cannot be overstated, and we on the committee deeply appreciate the work you 

do. 

Mr. Chairman, I will yield back. No further questions. 

The CHAIRMAN. For the record, can you talk at least a little bit 

about how your committee works with CBO? CBO is a creation of 

the Congress. As you say, they have 400 folks there dealing with 

issues. 

Mr. RYAN. They have 200 to 300 people. 

The CHAIRMAN. Okay, 200 to 300 people, but obviously far more 

than you do with 66. How and in what way do you rely on them 

in your preparation of the budget? 

Mr. RYAN. We rely on CBO to provide us all of the savings estimates, all of the cost estimates of any particular policy. As you 

know, tax policy is under the purview of the Joint Committee on 

Taxation, which is under the purview of the Ways and Means Committee. We get our revenue lines from CBO. But all spending estimates on savings or costing come from CBO. 

So our analysts, the 66 people here between the minority and the 

majority, are in constant communication on a daily basis with their 

counterparts in CBO to get the savings estimates on any particular 

policy change we are considering that we are planning on. 

So all of our budgeting is done based upon their estimates, based 

upon their numbers, based upon their baseline. So they prepare 

what I would call the measuring stick, the baseline, and then we 

think of reforms to get savings, or to spend more money, it depends 

on whatever budget you are writing, and we rely on their estimates 

as to the cost estimates of those policies to put our budgets together. So we completely rely on CBO. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Van Hollen, thank you for coming. We realize that we were 

a little ahead of schedule, and you are not late actually, in accordance with the time. In fact, you are actually a little early. Not as 

early as Mr. Ryan. 


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Mr. Ryan has assured us that you agree with everything he presented. No, what he said was you agree with the budget submission. But we would love to have you speak for yourself. 

STATEMENT OF THE HON. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MARYLAND 

Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Brady, members of the committee, Mr. Gingrey. I learned in the last 5 minutes 

I really have to get in better shape running over here. But I am 

going to be very brief. 

As you know, on the Budget Committee, while we may have contentious debates on policy issues and look forward to trying to find 

areas where we can agree from time to time on policy issues, we 

fully support the chairman’s request for the budget. 

The Budget Committee, this committee, as I am sure you know, 

has a long tradition of bipartisan cooperation when it comes to the 

fair distribution of the committee’s resources, and I am pleased to 

report that from our vantage point, that cooperation is very much 

there under the leadership of Chairman Paul Ryan. I want to 

thank him for his cooperation and graciousness in leading the committee and in the fair distribution of the resources. 

Mr. RYAN. John Spratt was that way with us, Jim Nussle was 

that way with them, and we are just continuing the tradition. 

Mr. VAN HOLLEN. We did have to make some tough decisions, I 

would say, but it was as a result of the transition in the Congress, 

not as a result of different distribution in the budget. But anything 

you can do to support the budget as requested, we have already, 

especially, of course, on the minority side, had to make some painful adjustments. 

[The statement of Mr. Van Hollen follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. Having served on the Budget Committee, knowing the work you do and the excellent staff that has been there, 

both Democrat and Republican, I appreciate your budget request. 

I also appreciate the fact that your committee has the history of 

probably being the most frugal in terms of requests for—— 

Mr. RYAN. As I say, we like to walk the talk. 

The CHAIRMAN. That has been true under both Democrat and Republican. I appreciate the fact you are continuing that. 

Do any Members have questions of Mr. Van Hollen? 

Well, we thank you. If you want to figure out how to get in 

shape, just follow Paul Ryan’s prescription. 

Mr. RYAN. 6:30 every morning in the gym. 

The CHAIRMAN. This hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:22 p.m., the committee was adjourned.] 


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