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56–151 PDF 2010

S. Hrg. 111–644 

NOMINATIONS OF GRAYLING G. WILLIAMS AND 

ELIZABETH M. HARMAN 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

OF THE

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

NOMINATIONS OF GRAYLING G. WILLIAMS TO BE DIRECTOR, OFFICE 

OF COUNTERNARCOTICS ENFORCEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF 

HOMELAND SECURITY, AND ELIZABETH M. HARMAN TO BE ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR, FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY, 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY 

DECEMBER 10, 2009 

Available via http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/index.html 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs 

( 


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(II) 

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas 

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana 

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, Missouri 

JON TESTER, Montana 

ROLAND W. BURRIS, Illinois 

PAUL G. KIRK, JR., Massachusetts 

SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

JOHN MCCAIN, Arizona 

GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio 

JOHN ENSIGN, Nevada 

LINDSEY GRAHAM, South Carolina 

ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah 

MICHAEL L. ALEXANDER, Staff Director 

BETH M. GROSSMAN, Senior Counsel 

KRISTINE V. LAM, Professional Staff Member 

BLAS NUNEZ-NETO, Professional Staff Member 

JASON T. BARNOSKY, Professional Staff Member 

BRANDON L. MILHORN, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

ROBERT L. STRAYER, Minority Director for Homeland Security Affairs 

JENNIFER L. TARR, Minority Counsel 

CHRISTOPHER J. KEACH, Minority Professional Staff Member 

ADAM J. KILLIAN, Minority Professional Staff Member 

TRINA DRIESSNACK TYRER, Chief Clerk 

PATRICIA R. HOGAN, Publications Clerk and GPO Detailee 

LAURA W. KILBRIDE, Hearing Clerk 


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C O N T E N T S 

Opening statements: Page 

Senator Lieberman ........................................................................................... 1, 11 

Senator Collins.................................................................................................. 2, 13 

Prepared statements: 

Senator Lieberman ......................................................................................... 25, 28 

Senator Collins................................................................................................ 27, 30 

WITNESSES 

THURSDAY, DECEMBER 10, 2009 

Grayling G. Williams to be Director, Office of Counternarcotics Enforcement, 

U.S. Department of Homeland Security ............................................................. 3 

Elizabeth M. Harman to be Assistant Administrator, Federal Emergency 

Management Agency, U.S. Department of Homeland Security ....................... 14 

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF WITNESSES

Harman, Elizabeth M.: 

Introduction submitted by Senator Mikulski ................................................. 11 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 14 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 71 

Biographical and financial information .......................................................... 73 

Letter from Office of Government Ethics ....................................................... 81 

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 82 

Responses to post-hearing questions .............................................................. 109 

Letter from Ms. Harman submitted by Senator Collins ............................... 112 

Letters of support ............................................................................................. 113 

Williams, Grayling G.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 3 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 31 

Biographical and financial information .......................................................... 33 

Letter from Office of Government Ethics ....................................................... 41 

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 42 

Letters of support ............................................................................................. 65 


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(1) 

NOMINATIONS OF GRAYLING G. WILLIAMS 

AND ELIZABETH M. HARMAN 

THURSDAY, DECEMBER 10, 2009 

U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:04 a.m., in room 

SD–342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joseph I. Lieberman, Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Lieberman and Collins. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN LIEBERMAN 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. The hearing will come to order. Good 

morning and welcome to this hearing at which we are going to consider the nomination of Grayling Williams to be the Director of the 

Office of Counternarcotics Enforcement (CNE) at the Department 

of Homeland Security (DHS). 

I want to note at the outset that after we consider Mr. Williams’ 

nomination, the Committee will move immediately to consider the 

nomination of Elizabeth Harman, who has been nominated to be 

Assistant Administrator for the Federal Emergency Management 

Agency (FEMA) in charge of the Grant Programs Directorate 

(GPD). 

But let us begin with the Office of Counternarcotics Enforcement. 

It was created as part of the Homeland Security Act of 2002 and 

strengthened by the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention 

Act of 2004, the so-called 9/11 Commission legislation—both of 

which, I am proud to say, came out of this Committee. The idea 

here was to create an office to coordinate the counternarcotics policies and operations of the Department of Homeland Security’s 

many component agencies and to coordinate policy with other Federal, State, and local law enforcement agencies to halt the flow of 

illegal drugs into the United States. 

CNE is responsible for recommending appropriate levels of financial and personnel resources within DHS to address the drug-trafficking threat and works very closely with the Joint Terrorism 

Task Forces (JTTFs) to track and sever connections between illegal 

drug trafficking and terrorism. 

Frankly, the office, in my opinion, has never been more vital to 

the mission of the Department of Homeland Security than it is 

today. As this Committee learned in a set of hearings earlier this 

year which focused on violence on the southern border, the Federal 

Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has labeled the Mexican drug cartels 


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as the No. 1 organized crime threat in America today. The cartels 

have used the cash and guns they transport south across the border to declare war on the Mexican government, which has led to 

a series of brutal attacks on Mexican officials, including beheadings 

and mass murders. 

If this level of violence against a government occurred elsewhere 

in the world, we would quickly call it terrorism. And I think that 

is exactly what the cartels have become: Narcoterrorists. The Mexican government, led by President Calderon, has taken courageous 

and unprecedented steps to take on these cartels and to strengthen 

and re-impose, if you will, the rule of law. But despite the Mexican 

government’s best efforts, the level of violence in Mexico is still 

much too high. The Department of Homeland Security itself has 

projected a 40-percent increase in drug cartel-driven murders in 

Mexico this year, and that is over the very high levels of last year. 

Mr. Williams, if you are confirmed, you will be, of course, a key 

player in our efforts to combat these threats I have just described 

and generally the threats of drug trafficking. I know you will have 

to work tirelessly to strengthen our defenses against increasing levels of drug-related violence along our southern border, but also the 

growing level of sophistication in the tactics used by drug traffickers. For example, the cartels are exploiting a loophole in our 

money-laundering laws that allows drug traffickers to use stored 

value cards to launder their drug profits, and I hope you will work 

with us to ensure that this loophole is closed, should you be confirmed. 

Mr. Williams, I believe, is exceedingly well qualified to take on 

these challenges of this position after a 23-year career at the Drug 

Enforcement Administration (DEA). Since 2008, he has served 

there as Chief of Staff to the Chief of Operations at DEA, following 

earlier tours of duty, if you will, as Section Chief/Assistant Special 

Agent in Charge at DEA Headquarters Operations Division, and 

before all that work at DEA, I am proud to say, Mr. Williams was 

in law enforcement in the State of Connecticut and got part of his 

extraordinary educational background at universities in the State 

of Connecticut as well, including Yale and the University of New 

Haven. 

So I welcome you before this Committee. I look forward to hearing your statement and your plans, if confirmed, and I am very 

proud now to call on our Ranking Member, Senator Susan Collins. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR COLLINS 

Senator COLLINS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

As the Chairman has pointed out, this nomination comes before 

us at a time when the threat to our Nation posed by illegal drug 

trafficking is escalating. 

Earlier this year, the Committee held two hearings on violence 

along the southwest border being perpetrated by Mexican drug cartels. The horrific bloodshed that has resulted in the deaths of thousands in Mexico is not constrained to the southern side of the border. It has, on multiple occasions, spilled over into the United 

States leading to murders, kidnappings, and other violent crimes. 

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1The prepared statement of Mr. Williams appears in the Appendix on page 31. 

creased attention at the Department and across the Federal Government. 

The 2009 National Southwest Border Counternarcotics Strategy 

noted an even greater threat to our homeland security, and that is, 

the possibility of collaboration between drug cartels and terrorist 

groups. The strategy noted that the same smuggling routes and 

techniques used to bring narcotics across the border could be exploited to smuggle in ‘‘terrorists and weapons of terror.’’ Our homeland security officials must fight this potential threat, working 

closely with the many security elements arrayed against illegal 

drug trafficking. 

Coordinating DHS’s work with these security elements at the 

Federal, State, and local levels is among the primary responsibilities of the Director of the Office of Counternarcotics Enforcement. 

The Director serves as the Secretary’s primary adviser on all counternarcotics issues and coordinates DHS’s enforcement efforts 

across the Department and with other Federal, State, and local entities. Working with Joint Terrorism Task Forces, CNE also must 

help to detect and disrupt any connections between drug trafficking 

and terrorist groups. 

Mr. Williams comes before this Committee with more than 20 

years of experience in our Nation’s counternarcotics efforts, and I 

look forward to hearing his views this morning. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you very much, Senator Collins. 

Let me say for the record that Mr. Williams has filed responses 

to a biographical and financial questionnaire, answered pre-hearing 

questions submitted by the Committee, and has had his financial 

statements reviewed by the Office of Government Ethics. Without 

objection, this information will be made part of the hearing record 

with the exception of the financial data, which are on file and 

available for public inspection in the Committee offices. 

Mr. Williams, our Committee rules require that all witnesses at 

nomination hearings give their testimony under oath, so I would 

ask you to please stand and raise your right hand. 

Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give to the 

Committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 

truth, so help you, God? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I do. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you very much. Please be seated. 

We would welcome at this point any opening statement you would 

like to make, as well as introduction of any family or friends who 

are with you this morning. 

TESTIMONY OF GRAYLING G. WILLIAMS TO BE DIRECTOR,1

OFFICE OF COUNTERNARCOTICS ENFORCEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you and good morning, Senator Lieberman 

and Senator Collins, and distinguished Members of the Committee. 

I am honored to appear before you today. 

I am deeply humbled by the confidence that President Obama 

has shown in me by nominating me to be the second Director of 


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the Office of Counternarcotics Enforcement at the Department of 

Homeland Security, and I am very grateful to Secretary Napolitano 

for her support. 

Right now I would like to introduce you to my brother, Darwin 

Cadogan, who has spent 30 years as a special agent with the Bureau of Diplomatic Security at the Department of State and, prior 

to that, as a corrections officer with the New York City Corrections 

Department. 

Also here is my niece, Rhonda Cadogan, of whom I am very 

proud, and also a few of my colleagues from the Drug Enforcement 

Administration, most notably the Deputy Chief of Intelligence, Judith Bertini. They have all been very supportive of me. 

Last, and perhaps most important, I would like to thank my children, Brianna and Grayling, who are with me in spirit and, I understand, watching this hearing online through the Committee 

website. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Good. 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Should I be confirmed, I look forward to working 

with the dedicated men and women of CNE and the entire Department of Homeland Security to protect our Nation from threats and 

ensuring that CNE is an effective and valued member of the counternarcotics enterprise. There are several members of CNE that are 

also here today with us. 

If confirmed, I will draw upon my almost 29-year career as a law 

enforcement officer, which includes 22 years as a special agent of 

the Drug Enforcement Administration. I have worked on the front 

lines of the War on Drugs as a case and undercover agent and as 

a supervisor. I know what it takes to coordinate a successful drug 

enforcement operation in a multi-jurisdictional task force environment. I also have experience managing headquarters’ staff; directing, coordinating, and planning programs; and motivating and 

mentoring employees. I have acquired the knowledge, skills, and 

abilities necessary to provide competent and accountable leadership, and I have learned how to achieve change within an organization. 

Moreover, from working foot patrol in New Haven, Connecticut, 

as a member of the Yale University Police Department, to developing complex drug conspiracy investigations for DEA, to conducting undercover operations training for the Polish National Police in Warsaw, I have developed collaborative working relationships with many State and local police departments, Federal agencies, and international law enforcement entities. In fact, in my current position at DEA headquarters, I oversee studies and projects 

focused specifically on interagency collaboration—affording me a 

unique understanding of the interagency process and how to 

strengthen partnerships across the Federal Government. 

Today, our Nation faces a difficult challenge: How do we combat 

the illicit drug trade and smuggling activities while facilitating the 

legitimate movement of goods and people across our borders? Highly complex and sophisticated criminal organizations test our Nation’s security on a daily basis by attempting to smuggle drugs, 

people, weapons, and money across our borders. Moreover, these 

criminal organizations are constantly evolving, forcing us to rethink our methods for dealing with them. 


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Part of the Department of Homeland Security’s primary mission, 

as set forth in the Homeland Security Act of 2002, is to ‘‘monitor 

connections between illegal drug trafficking and terrorism, coordinate efforts to sever such connections, and otherwise contribute to 

efforts to interdict illegal drug trafficking.’’ CNE is a unique office 

geared toward coordinating DHS’s efforts to fulfill this mandate. 

CNE both coordinates the Department’s work with State, local, and 

tribal law enforcement on these issues and represents the Department within the interagency community on counternarcotics policy 

and operations. If confirmed, I will lead the office in its efforts to 

fully and effectively carry out these responsibilities. 

First, CNE will ensure coordination of DHS’s counternarcotics activities along the borders. We will strengthen the office’s partnerships within and outside the Department. Second, I will ensure 

that the DHS counternarcotics enterprise succeeds by assessing the 

resources needed to fulfill the Department’s mission. Third, I will 

work with DHS component heads to ensure that each component 

is properly incorporating the Department’s mandate to track and 

sever the ties between drug trafficking and terrorism. 

Additionally, I will establish a proactive, positive relationship 

with Secretary Napolitano’s other advisers on policy and operational matters and further develop previously established mechanisms, such as the Counternarcotics Coordinating Council. I will 

also work with the interagency community by establishing regular 

contact with non-DHS officials and entities and strengthening outreach and collaboration with State, local, and tribal officials. 

In conclusion, I believe that my background and experience have 

prepared me to take on the significant and varied responsibilities 

of the Director of the Office of Counternarcotics Enforcement. I 

would like to thank the Committee for considering my nomination. 

Thank you. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Mr. Williams. Thanks very 

much for an excellent, really clear opening statement. I am going 

to start the questioning with the three questions we ask of all 

nominees. 

First, is there anything you are aware of in your background that 

might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office to 

which you have been nominated? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Second, do you know of anything, personal or otherwise, that would in any way prevent you from fully 

and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to which 

you have been nominated? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. No. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. And, third, do you agree without reservation to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and testify 

before any duly constituted committee of Congress if you are confirmed? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Absolutely, sir. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you very much. 

Let me, in my first couple of questions, pick up on a few of the 

statements that you made. Obviously, the primary responsibility of 

this office to which you have been nominated is coordination of the 

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cause CNE does not have an operational role, like Customs and 

Border Protection (CBP) or the Coast Guard, it depends on the 

component agencies providing sufficient information in order to 

execute its mission. 

I have heard that the DHS component agencies, for instance, 

only report their counternarcotics performance measures to CNE 

twice a year and that the Counternarcotics Coordinating Council, 

which includes the head of all the operational agencies and is 

chaired by the CNE Director, the position to which you have been 

nominated, has met very rarely in the past. 

So I wanted to ask you what thoughts do you have, what ideas 

do you have, what plans do you have to require more sharing of 

counternarcotics information on a real-time basis. And, for instance, what thoughts do you have about the use you would make 

of the Counternarcotics Coordinating Council? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Senator, I would like to say that if I am confirmed, what I would like to do is get into the position and reinvigorate the Counternarcotics Coordinating Council. I see that as a 

vital component in carrying out our mission of coordinating and developing strategies with those entities such as Immigration and 

Customs Enforcement (ICE), CBP, and the Coast Guard that have 

a counternarcotics mission. So I would like to reinvigorate that 

whole program and get that started again. 

The other thing that is important on getting information from 

our components is, I would like to pursue having detailees from 

each of those components—ICE, CBP, and the Coast Guard—work 

at CNE on a regular headquarters detail. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. That is a very good idea. That reminds 

me of what I was going to ask you, just a basic fact question. Approximately how many people are working directly in CNE now, do 

you know? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. We have about 15 staff members. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. So it is a core headquarters staff and a 

coordinating staff? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. How about the other part of this, which 

you mentioned? And I will quote from one of your responses to the 

Committee’s questions, which is when you said, ‘‘The major external challenge facing CNE is to ensure the effective coordination of 

the Department of Homeland Security’s counternarcotics efforts 

with other departments in the interagency process.’’ I wanted to 

ask you what ideas you have. It is an important commitment, and 

I agree with you, that is a priority. What are your specific ideas, 

if you have any now, to implement that goal, that vision? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, a couple of ideas that come to mind are I 

would like to be able to leverage my relationship with such agencies as DEA, the FBI, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). I have lifelong friends and relationships that are well established and that I would like to be able to 

utilize. 

One of the things for CNE is that we are supposed to represent 

the Department on counternarcotics matters at interagency working groups, policy and strategy task force groups, and that is something that we need to continue and we need to actually reinvigoVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:21 Oct 19, 2010 Jkt 056151 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\56151.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

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rate and move forward. So I would like to continue that. But, 

again, the only way I am going to be able to do that is if I am able 

to get a good, strong working relationship with our components 

with a counternarcotics mission because ultimately I will be representing them, looking for resources for them to carry out their 

mission. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Good answer, and I appreciate it. 

Let me ask you about the Mexican drug cartels, which both Senator Collins and I referred to in our opening statements. As a career agent and executive at DEA, I know you have a wealth of 

knowledge about drug-trafficking organizations. I wanted to ask 

you first, what is your assessment of the threat posed to America 

by the Mexican drug cartels? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, my assessment actually mirrors that of the 

statement of the FBI that the drug cartels are the major organized 

crime threat to this country right now. I could not agree more. This 

is a problem that we have to aggressively deal with by good intelligence sharing and good collaboration and old-fashioned detective 

work, get our agents and our Border Patrol officers out there, 

working to disrupt their activities and, when possible, to dismantle 

their cartel organizations. 

We also need to keep in mind, because the Department has an 

overarching mandate to protect the homeland and to protect us 

from terrorism, we have to always look for that link if possible between drug trafficking and terrorism. And we know that exists. We 

see it in the Middle East in areas like Afghanistan with what is 

going on there with the opium production. So we have to monitor 

that with the Mexican drug cartels and see if they have ever been 

approached by foreign terrorist organizations. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Yes, I agree. We have had evidence before 

the Committee of a concern that foreign terrorist groups might actually link up with Mexican drug cartels to assist them in entering 

the country illegally, but also to gain revenue to carry out their 

plans against the United States. 

Let me ask you to just go a little bit deeper, if you can, if you 

have any thoughts about what the unique role of the Office of 

Counternarcotics Enforcement would be in the battle against the 

Mexican drug cartels, particularly with regard to any of the component agencies of DHS. 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, as you alluded to earlier, CNE is not an 

operational component of DHS, nor is it an intelligence-gathering 

component. So our main role is to work with our component agencies—ICE, CBP, and the Coast Guard—to ensure that whatever 

programs that they are pushing forward, they are on point and on 

track, working with them, being their representative on various 

committees. 

One of the things that CNE was able to do, along with the Office 

of the Deputy Attorney General, is to put together the Southwest 

Border Counternarcotics Strategy. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Right. 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Which is an excellent document. I just want to 

say that for many years, law enforcement at the Federal level has 

given resources to the southwest border, but it was basically that 


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DEA would do their thing, the FBI would do their thing—before 

ICE, it was Customs, and Customs would do their thing. 

This is a road map now that basically spells out everybody’s responsibilities, and it gives them guidance on what they should be 

doing and how they should be doing it, and, more importantly, the 

sharing of information. 

So CNE will be that group that is at the 30,000-foot level and 

will be able to bring our components together as one DHS and then 

take that message forward to the interagency, as well as State and 

locals. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Good. Thank you. Senator Collins. 

Senator COLLINS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Let me follow up on the issues that the Chairman has raised. I 

am very concerned from the work that we have done in this Committee and from what I have seen at the Armed Services Committee about the link between terrorism and drug trafficking. You 

see it literally all over the world, and certainly we see it in Afghanistan, where the proceeds from the drug crop, the poppy crop, are 

used by terrorist groups such as the Taliban. 

That leads me to be very concerned that it is inevitable that terrorist groups are going to link up with the Mexican drug cartels to 

smuggle either terrorists into this country using well-known successful smuggling routes or perhaps a weapon of mass destruction 

of some sort. 

I am curious what the relationship is between CNE and our 

Joint Terrorism Task Forces and also the relationship between 

CNE and the National Counterterrorism Center because CNE may 

well have information about drug trafficking through the components of DHS that would be very valuable to the Joint Terrorism 

Task Forces or to the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC). 

So what kind of relationship exists now? And how would you 

strengthen it? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, Senator Collins, your concerns are my concerns also, and one of the things I will say is that, again, not having that operational or intelligence-gathering component under us, 

we do have an individual that is assigned to the national JTTF, 

and we are looking at that because from my years of experience, 

it is more appropriate to leverage our operators—our ICE operators, our CBP officers, Border Patrol agents, Coast Guard folks— 

because those are the men and women who are out there doing the 

job every day. 

My staff, which is only 15 people, are not on the ground. They 

are not operationally engaged. So what we would do is work with 

them to identify those associations. Besides the JTTF, there is the 

Special Operations Division (SOD) run by the Drug Enforcement 

Administration that has a counterterrorism component. If there is 

any information that comes up in a drug investigation, there is already a unit in place at SOD to which you are to turn that information over for ultimate exploitation by the FBI. 

So I would look to make sure that our components are working, 

not just with the JTTF, but also in areas such as SOD and the Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF) Fusion 

Center. The important key here is, as you mentioned, to get the inVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:21 Oct 19, 2010 Jkt 056151 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\56151.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

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formation and then get it out to the right people so that information can be acted upon. 

Senator COLLINS. The Chairman and I are very sensitive to that 

issue because we have worked for so many years to change the culture in the Federal Government to one of sharing essential information, not only across the Federal Government but with our State 

and local partners, and that is why I am particularly pleased with 

your background because you will understand who has the information and why it must be shared. But as the case involving the 

massacre at Fort Hood certainly appears to suggest, we still have 

barriers to the sharing of absolutely vital information. 

I also want to join the Chairman in expressing concerns about 

stored value cards. An important part of the counternarcotics effort 

is to interdict and seize cash from the drug trade, and we have 

been very concerned about an emerging trend where money is 

smuggled across the border in an electronic format such as stored 

value cards. And we all know that if you cross the border with 

$10,000 or more in cash, Federal law requires that to be declared. 

Any of us who have ever checked that box on the Customs form is 

aware of that regulation—not that I have ever had to worry about 

having $10,000 with me. 

But there is a glaring loophole in that stored value cards are not 

deemed as ‘‘monetary instruments’’ and they do not have to be declared. And for this reason, the Chairman and I joined forces once 

again, and when the credit card accountability bill was on the floor 

in May, I offered an amendment with the Chairman that required 

the Treasury Department, in consultation with DHS, to issue regulations that should be aimed at requiring stored value cards to be 

declared as well. 

Unfortunately, I am told that the Treasury Department appears 

to be extremely reluctant to issue regulations regarding these 

cards. 

What will you do to ensure that the intent of Congress—since 

DHS has a role here, that is, these regulations are supposed to be 

issued in consultation with DHS—is carried out and that the regulations are issued? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, what I would like to get involved in is already under discussion between DHS and, for instance, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN), a component of the 

Treasury Department. As a matter of fact, it is our money-laundering experts from ICE that are leading the charge in looking at 

this issue of stored value cards. Any assistance, any guidance or 

help that I can offer Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the 

money-laundering gentlemen there that are leading the charge, I 

would like our office to be able to be involved in that. And if I can 

leverage assistance from such agencies like DEA and their Office 

of Financial Operations to get involved in the fight and even bring 

the FBI into it, I will because everyone across the board in law enforcement sees this as an evolving threat. 

So the way this thing works is if we are supposed to stop money 

being taken out of the country, drug proceeds, and you are telling 

me that $500,000 can be put on a stored value card and there is 

nothing that says that this person has to declare it or give any inVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:21 Oct 19, 2010 Jkt 056151 PO 00000 Frm 00013 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\56151.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

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formation, that is a major problem for this country and that is a 

major problem for law enforcement. 

So whatever I can do—and I will do this in consultation, again, 

with entities such as ICE and CBP—my office stands ready. 

Senator COLLINS. Great. Well, I hope that you will make that a 

priority, assuming your confirmation, which I think is a pretty good 

assumption, and that you will let the Chairman and me know if 

you encounter resistance from the Treasury Department on this. It 

is inconceivable to me that Treasury has not acted. This is such a 

glaring loophole, and it does need to be closed. So please do come 

back to us. 

Let me just make one final comment, if I may, Mr. Chairman. 

The southwest border obviously has gotten a great deal of consideration and attention and warrants it. But my final comment to you 

is do not forget the northern border as well. That also is vulnerable. There are wide open stretches where there is very little enforcement activity. That border is far longer than our southern border, and it, too, is vulnerable to smuggling of drugs. So I hope that 

as we appropriately, in response to the Mexican cartel problem, 

focus resources and efforts on the southwest border, we do not create a new vulnerability on our northern border. Thank you. 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, thank you. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Senator Collins. I agree. 

Mr. Williams, thanks for your testimony. You have been very responsive, and you have a great background, and I agree that I hope 

your nomination goes sailing right through. 

Just as I listened to you—and we have had a couple of other 

nominees come forward—when we put this Department together in 

response to September 11, 2001, we knew part of it was to gain the 

benefits of collaboration and coordination that were missing in a 

literal sense that implied a lot more to have a place where the dots 

were connected. People were working together to protect our security from natural disasters and unnatural ones like terrorism and 

drug trafficking. But then we came back and created positions like 

this one and in some sense the Intelligence and Analysis Directorate (I&A), which were aimed at creating within the Department 

of Homeland Security people who would really work to coordinate 

the relevant people in the 22 or so agencies of the Department so 

that the whole would be greater than the sum of its parts. And obviously, that is exactly what this office is about, and I think there 

is tremendous potential to do things that have not been done in 

that regard yet and that I am confident you have the ability and 

experience to do. So I appreciate your willingness to serve. 

We are going to, without objection, keep the record of this hearing open until tomorrow at 12 noon for the submission of any written questions or statements for the record. If you get any questions, 

I hope you will answer them as quickly as you can, and to the extent that it is possible, and as you may know from following the 

newspaper, the Senate is a highly unpredictable organism. One 

never knows when it will move quickly or not move at all. [Laughter.] 

But hopefully it will move quickly and smoothly in regard to your 

nomination, so I thank you very much, and we will now close this 

part of the hearing. 


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Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Senators. Thank you very much. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. All the best. 

We will now proceed to the hearing on the nomination of Elizabeth Harman. Would you please come forward to the table? 

[Pause.] 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN LIEBERMAN 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. The hearing will reconvene. Ms. Harman, 

welcome to the table. We are now going to consider your nomination to be the Assistant Administrator for FEMA in charge of the 

Grant Programs Directorate. You have drawn support from a truly 

impressive array of people. First, I want to submit for the record, 

without objection, a very strong statement on your behalf from Senator Barbara Mikulski of Maryland, our colleague. 

[The prepared statement of Senator Mikulski follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR BARBARA MIKULSKI IN SUPPORT OF 

ELIZABETH HARMAN 

Mr. Chairman, I am happy to support the nomination of Elizabeth Harman to become Assistant Administrator for the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Ms. 

Harman’s credentials, as well as her commitment to the people of this country, 

make her an excellent choice for this position. 

I have three criteria that I use to evaluate all Executive Branch nominees: Competence, integrity, and commitment to the core mission of the Department. Based 

on these criteria, I wholeheartedly support Elizabeth Harman to the FEMA Assistant Administrator Post. 

Ms. Harman has served as the Director of the Hazardous Materials and Weapons 

of Mass Destruction Training Department at the International Association of Firefighters for the past 5 years. While there, she has managed a program specifically 

targeted to disaster preparation and response. In addition to her roles as a mentor 

and teacher at various points throughout her career, Ms. Harman has been out 

there herself—notably as Prince George’s County Volunteer Fire Fighter in our 

home State of Maryland for 8 years. She understands the environment, and has the 

education and practical knowledge that will only be an asset to the Department. 

I am proud to join the Fraternal Order of Police, the International Association of 

Fire Chiefs, and many others in endorsing this nomination, and thank you for bringing this nomination forward for a hearing. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. The support comes from a very broad 

array of leaders of the first responder community, a number of 

whom are here today. I would note and welcome my dear friend, 

Harold Schaitberger, the President of the International Association 

of Fire Fighters (IAFF), and all the other representatives of various 

first responder communities that are here. 

Your nomination has been endorsed not only by the IAFF, but 

by the International Association of Fire Chiefs (IAFC), the National 

Association of State Fire Marshals, the National Fire Protection 

Association, the Fraternal Order of Police (FOP), the National Association of Police Organizations, the National Sheriffs’ Association, 

and many individual leaders in the field of response and emergency 

medical service. This reminds me of all those old stories that say 

when you are this far ahead, you probably should not answer any 

of the questions we ask. But it is quite an impressive group of supporters. 

The Grant Programs Directorate and the position of Assistant 

Administrator in charge of grant programs are the result of 

changes made by the Post-Katrina Emergency Management Reform Act of 2006, which this Committee authored. Our goal there 


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was to create a new, stronger FEMA by bringing together the Department’s mission to prepare for natural and manmade disasters 

with its mission to respond to those same disasters. 

Homeland security grant programs were a key part of the preparedness mission, and the new FEMA was to include a ‘‘one-stop 

shop’’ for grant assistance to help State and local governments and 

first responders to prepare for natural disasters or terrorist attacks. 

The Assistant Administrator for the Grant Programs Directorate, 

the position for which you have been nominated, is responsible for 

these programs. If confirmed, you would fully administer about 20 

of these programs to help prepare State, local, and tribal governments, first responders, and nonprofit organizations for acts of terrorism and natural disasters through training and equipping police, firefighters, and other first responders; and through better security at our ports and transit systems. And you would be responsible additionally for the financial management of another 30 grant 

programs that assist victims post disaster and help communities 

mitigate against potential damage from future disasters. 

So this is a wide-ranging job, a big job, and big responsibilities. 

But I do believe your strengths for this nomination are as big as 

the responsibilities of the office. It begins with the fact that you 

have been a firefighter and a paramedic and, therefore, have in 

this case what certainly would be called ‘‘boots on the ground’’ experience. You understand, I am sure, from firsthand experience 

that proper preparation and sufficient resources are keys to helping 

first responders do the jobs that we ask them and you to do for us. 

I am sure that you know the value of all-hazards training, in other 

words, training for predictable emergencies such as fires and 

floods, as well as the unpredictable, such as terrorist attacks, and 

that you understand where Federal grants are being spent, where 

they should be spent, and the value of consulting first responders 

before spending decisions have been made. 

Since 2005, Ms. Harman has been the Director of the Hazardous 

Materials and Weapons of Mass Destruction training program 

within the IAFF. She has held emergency medical training positions at the University of Maryland Fire and Rescue Institute, the 

Johns Hopkins University Medical School, and the George Washington University. And as I mentioned, you began your career as 

a firefighter and emergency medical technician (EMT) in Bowie, 

Maryland, and Fairfax, Virginia. 

A graduate of the George Washington University with a degree 

in Emergency Medical Services Management, and from the University of Maryland, a Master of Science in Emergency Health Services, so you really bring quite an impressive background. 

If confirmed, you will, of course, face a number of challenges over 

the next few years, the most serious of which may be the need to 

do more with less. Under the assumptions set out in the fiscal year 

2010 budget, by 2014 the Department will be faced with a 13-percent budget cut in real terms from its current funding level. I know 

that we, on this Committee, will work hard to see if we can turn 

those projections around and, as we have in the past, fight for more 

funding. I hope that will be true. But even assuming it is based on 

the demands, resources are inevitably going to be tight, and grant 


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funding is going to involve some tough decisions. So performance 

measurement, I think, will gain in importance as resources must 

be focused most on programs that work. 

In both the Post-Katrina Act and the 9/11 Act of 2007, we injected and put in various methods for ensuring that grant funds 

are spent effectively. Up until this point, I must say that many of 

those requirements have not been met, and I look forward to your 

closing that gap when, if confirmed, you assume this position. 

Senator Collins. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR COLLINS 

Senator COLLINS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

First, let me join you in welcoming the first responder organizations who are here today. They are friends in this Committee. We 

have worked very closely with them on a number of issues, and the 

fact that Ms. Harman has their support means a lot to me as well. 

Our Nation’s homeland security grant programs are a vital part 

of enhancing our capacity to prepare for, protect against, and respond to a full range of natural disasters and manmade hazards. 

And because terrorists do not always live and plan in areas that 

they ultimately intend to strike, these grants must ensure that all 

States—both large and small—are able to build the capabilities to 

confront terrorist activity and to respond effectively to all hazards. 

As Senator Lieberman has indicated, we wrote the law that restored the administration of the grant programs to FEMA. This reform improved FEMA’s ability to support State, local, and tribal 

preparedness with funds for planning, training, exercises, personnel, and equipment. 

In addition to providing such critically needed funding to improve the Nation’s preparedness, FEMA must play another important role in the administration of these grants, and that is, to ensure wise spending of taxpayer dollars. 

Since fiscal year 2002, the Department has awarded more than 

$27 billion in homeland security grants. It seems every year, the 

Chairman and I have to join forces to restore budget cuts that 

Presidents of both parties have made in these important programs. 

But given the size of this investment, it is crucial that the Department can identify, measure, and assess what this money has 

bought and what future investments are needed. That is why Congress directed FEMA in 2006 to establish performance metrics to 

assess the Nation’s overall level of preparedness. 

To meet this mandate, the Department has developed the Costto-Capabilities (C-2-C) initiative to measure the Nation’s return on 

this investment. After 19 months of development, however, this 

program is still in its initial phases. The next leader of the Department’s grant programs must accelerate its progress. After all, if we 

are going to keep advocating for the investment that we believe is 

absolutely essential, we need to be able to show our colleagues and 

the American people that the money is well spent. 

So I look forward to exploring these issues this morning with our 

nominee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Senator Collins. 

Ms. Harman has filed responses to a biographical and financial 

questionnaire, answered all the pre-hearing questions, and had her 


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1The prepared statement of Ms. Harman appears in the Appendix on page 71. 

financial statements reviewed by the Office of Government Ethics. 

Without objection, this information now will be made part of the 

hearing record except for the financial data, which are on file and 

available for public inspection in the Committee offices. 

I think you know that the Committee rules require that all witnesses at nomination hearings give their testimony under oath, so 

I would ask you to please stand and raise your right hand. 

Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give to the 

Committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 

truth, so help you, God? 

Ms. HARMAN. I do. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. I thank you. Please be seated. We will be 

glad to hear an opening statement, if you have one, and the introduction of any guests that you have with you. 

TESTIMONY OF ELIZABETH M. HARMAN TO BE ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR,1 FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT 

AGENCY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY 

Ms. HARMAN. Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Ranking 

Member Collins, and Members of the Committee. I would like to 

introduce to you my family who is here with me today: First and 

foremost, my husband, Dwayne, who has supported me throughout; 

my younger son, Nathan. My older son is on a field trip in New 

York. I am sure he would prefer to be there. My father, Richard 

Nalesnik. Over here I have my brother Christopher Nalesnik, and 

my other brother Matthew Nalesnik. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Who is the guy behind you? 

Ms. HARMAN. I wonder. Again, as far as introductions go, I do 

not think this man needs one, but this is General President 

Schaitberger from the International Association of Fire Fighters, 

and I do give sincere thanks to all of those who have supported me, 

and particularly the IAFF, which has given me an opportunity to 

work for them not once but twice in a variety of increased capacity 

and responsibility, and I thank them very much for their continued 

support and both my personal and professional growth. I am 

thankful to the IAFC as well as the FOP and all the others who 

have also provided letters of support. 

I understand that Senator Mikulski could not be here this morning due to a scheduling conflict, but I would like to thank her for 

her written statement of support and for her years of support for 

emergency responders throughout Maryland and across the country. 

I am privileged to appear before you today as President Obama’s 

nominee for Assistant Administrator of the Grant Programs Directorate for the Federal Emergency Management Agency. I would 

like to thank my family again who is here, particularly my husband, who has always been very supportive of me in the various 

decisions I have made in my life, and my sons, who keep me very 

focused and driven. 

Throughout my life, I have been surrounded by very hard-working people, public servants who have always strived to do what is 

right in their country. My father served in the Navy and retired 


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after 30 years with the Environmental Protection Agency. My 

brother Richard served in the Army, my brother Christopher in the 

Navy and has been in local law enforcement with Prince Georges 

County, Maryland, for over 20 years now; and my brother Matthew 

has served in the U.S. Secret Service. 

The position of the Assistant Administrator of the Grant Programs Directorate is a position of great responsibility as one of its 

primary missions is to ensure that through Federal funding our 

Nation is better prepared to respond to and mitigate all-hazard 

events. The Post-Katrina Emergency Management Reform Act centralized all Department of Homeland Security grants at FEMA, 

providing a more integrated and coordinated system of grant management. The challenge of the Assistant Administrator position is 

to ensure that FEMA’s grant programs are administered responsibly and economically, maximizing each dollar spent to improve 

our Nation’s capabilities and provide a strong return on investment. 

As a former volunteer and professional firefighter, and as a 

former paramedic, I have seen firsthand where these dollars are 

being spent, have an idea where they should be spent, and how important Federal funding is to building capability as well as ensuring the health and safety of first responders everywhere. 

I understand the importance of including front-line responders of 

all disciplines in the design and planning phase of grant programs. 

Additionally, I understand the importance of keeping these stakeholders informed throughout the decision-making process. 

Over the years, I have not only had the opportunity to serve as 

a first responder on the front lines, both, again, volunteer and career, but I have also been fortunate to serve in other emergency response managerial, teaching, policy, and leadership positions. I believe this experience has prepared me well, and if confirmed as the 

Assistant Administrator of the Grant Programs Directorate, I look 

forward to working with you and your Committee. 

As a young volunteer firefighter in Prince George’s County, 

Maryland, as a career firefighter with the City of Fairfax Fire and 

Rescue, and as a member of IAFF Local 2702, I have firsthand 

knowledge of the planning, training, and equipment needed to perform the duties of a first responder. The City of Fairfax department 

is a combined career and volunteer organization. It provides fire 

suppression and emergency medical services to over 22,000 residents. The department responds to over 11,000 incidents, an average of over 30 responses per day from only two fire stations. It is 

a privilege to have been affiliated with them. 

In my tenure on the faculty of the University of Maryland, Maryland Fire and Rescue Institute, I provided vital training to first responders across the country to better prepare them for all-hazard 

events. During my service at the Maryland Emergency Management Agency as a State Administrator for Exercise and Training 

with the National Capital Region, I worked with various local, 

State, Federal, and private sector partners to evaluate the effectiveness of response to both small- and large-scale disasters. I 

helped coordinate disaster declarations under the Stafford Act. I 

counseled counties on the assistance that was available to them. I 

helped coordinate Emergency Management Assistance Compact 


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(EMAC) requests to provide aid to affected areas. I led Maryland’s 

National Incident Management System (NIMS) rollout efforts. And 

during the catastrophic events of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, I 

served as a State Liaison under the incident management system 

and coordinated efforts to receive evacuees from affected States. 

Most recently, as the Director of the International Association of 

Fire Fighters Hazardous Materials (HAZMAT) and Weapons of 

Mass Destruction (WMD) Training Department, I have been involved in all aspects of the Federal grant process, from the interpretation of guidance, preparation of submission packages, to financial and programmatic direction and oversight, including oversight of IAFF grants that support full-time staff, more than 100 instructors that train more than 12,000 responders each year. I have 

established a progressive evaluation program to measure the effectiveness and impact of these training programs, a program which 

has become the evaluation model of several supporting Federal 

agencies. 

If confirmed, I will work diligently to measure the current level 

of preparedness to ensure Federal dollars have been accounted for 

and are producing positive results. And I vow to prioritize outreach 

efforts to ensure that grantees and potential grantees are using 

these dollars wisely and are building capabilities effectively. I also 

commit to cooperating fully with this Committee as it fulfills its 

important oversight function. 

In closing, I am honored and humbled by this opportunity to 

serve, and if confirmed, I pledge to work with Secretary Napolitano, Administrator Fugate and the FEMA leadership team, this 

Committee, and Congress to ensure that the FEMA Grant Programs Directorate efficiently and effectively executes the Department of Homeland Security’s grant programs and properly supports 

the reforms contained in the Post-Katrina Emergency Reform Act 

and the Recommendations of the 9/11 Commission Act. 

I thank you, Mr. Chairman and Senator Collins, for the opportunity to appear before you today, and I look forward to answering 

any questions that you may have. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks very much, Ms. Harman. That 

was an excellent opening statement. I am going to start with the 

standard three questions we ask all nominees. 

First, is there anything you are aware of in your background that 

might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office to 

which you have been nominated? 

Ms. HARMAN. No. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Second, do you know of anything, personal or otherwise, that would in any way prevent you from fully 

and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to which 

you have been nominated? 

Ms. HARMAN. No. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. And, third, do you agree without reservation to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and testify 

before any duly constituted committee of Congress if you are confirmed? 

Ms. HARMAN. Yes. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you. Let me begin right inside the 

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lem of the Directorate. The Inspector General of DHS and the Government Accountability Office (GAO) have pointed out that shortages in staffing have adversely affected the administration of 

grants. For example, staff shortages reportedly contributed to 

delays in distribution of transit security grants and also made it 

difficult for FEMA to conduct comprehensive grant monitoring. 

I wanted to ask you what your understanding is of the staffing 

levels now and where does staffing fall among your priorities if you 

enter this office, should you be confirmed. 

Ms. HARMAN. Yes, Mr. Chairman, thank you. Staffing is a consistent theme throughout all of the GAO reports and IG reports 

that I have read over the last few months in preparation for today 

and this position, if confirmed. The staffing shortages, as I understand them, there are approximately 30 shortages. That shortage 

is balanced with, obviously, the use of contractors and the not so 

favorable view of the usage of contractors throughout the Department. 

There is much to do in this Directorate. There are a lot of challenges ahead. And if you look at the recommendations in the GAO 

reports and the IG reports, all of those recommendations basically 

become my to-do list, if confirmed. 

My first priority, aside from establishing our measurements and 

our metrics to try to figure out what good all of the funding that 

we have provided everyone has done, as well as outreach efforts, 

is to take an aggressive approach to fill those positions with fulltime government employees. That is the building block. There is, 

again, much to do, and we cannot get that done without full-time 

staff. So I look forward, if confirmed, to working with the FEMA 

leadership team as well as the Human Resources Department to 

see what we can do to get those positions filled quickly with qualified and energetic people who are ready to take on the task. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. That is good to hear, and obviously, you 

cannot do all that we need you to do, particularly with resources 

tight, unless you have a staff that can support your effort. 

Let me ask you another somewhat related question. I mentioned 

all the programs that GPD administers, separate preparedness 

grants. As a result, of course, several grants from different programs may go to the same jurisdiction. And I wanted to ask you 

whether you think there is an overproliferation of specific grant 

programs and whether we would be better off consolidating some 

of the many grant programs into a smaller number of larger grant 

programs. Or do you think that having a number of distinct targeted grant programs is actually a more effective way of addressing 

the range of homeland security challenges? Incidentally, if this is 

a problem, it is not the fault of the Department. It is our fault. So 

I am interested in from your experience what your judgment on 

that question is. 

Ms. HARMAN. Thank you. That is an excellent question. There 

are a lot of grant programs. There are more than 50 programs that 

this Directorate oversees, both administratively, programmatically, 

and financially. Much of those programs are coordinated through 

the subject matter experts in the various fields, whether it be transit or the Coast Guard as far as the port security goes. And the 

Grant Programs Directorate does take the lead on that. 


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So, whether they are separate programs or they are combined 

programs, each one of those programs has their specific goals and 

objectives which need to be measured at the end. So, I have not 

looked at them, whether they should be separate or together, but 

I can certainly do so, if confirmed. 

Now I know comprehensively with the IAFF, I oversee anywhere 

from seven to eight different grant programs within my department 

alone. Those have to be looked at comprehensively as we work 

through each fiscal year, but also have to be looked at separately, 

measured separately, reported on separately, and it can be very 

challenging at times. So in the aspects of the stakeholders, I would 

be interested to hear what the stakeholders have to say and how 

they feel about that. Are there too many programs, too much reporting? Would it be better to put them all together? I mean, that 

is a very good question, and if confirmed, we can certainly look at 

that. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Well, I urge you to do that, and I do not 

have a real judgment on it myself. It is just a question that I have 

thought about, and I would look forward to working with you on 

it as you pursue it. 

Incidentally, another possibility is to set up some mechanism by 

which your office is pushing and in some sense ensuring that multiple grants to a single jurisdiction or area are used, even if they 

are distinct, synergistically to create greater capabilities than if 

they are not coordinated. 

Ms. HARMAN. Absolutely. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Let me go to the question of measuring 

performance that we talked about. We talked about the PostKatrina Act, the provisions we put in to ensure that grants are 

being spent effectively, yet in a recent hearing before the House 

Homeland Security Committee, the Deputy FEMA Administrator 

for National Preparedness acknowledged that FEMA did not yet 

have an accurate way of measuring the preparedness of States or 

determining to what extent preparedness has actually improved as 

a result of the homeland security grants. And so I wanted to ask 

you, if confirmed, whether you have any specific steps you plan to 

take to develop performance measures for preparedness and also to 

assess the impact of the broad homeland security grants. 

Ms. HARMAN. Thank you. I am familiar with the testimony that 

was given by Deputy Administrator Manning. I watched it on the 

webcast there. And I am very familiar with the C-2-C program. I 

have been briefed on that. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Good. 

Ms. HARMAN. I understand it is in the pilot phase right now. It 

has had some stakeholder involvement, and it is progressing forward. And if confirmed, I look forward to analyzing the results of 

that to see how to move forward. 

The measurement of preparedness overall with all of the billions 

of dollars that have been invested into building capability is a huge 

undertaking. I can speak firsthand of just the programs that I run 

in measuring performance. We have a model program. That is easy 

to do when you have a small group of people, you are measuring 

training, you are measuring their performance, whether or not your 

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er to do on a small scale. But on a much grander scale, particularly 

as we look at capabilities across the Nation, States that require one 

set of capabilities to respond to, let us just say, earthquakes or tornadoes versus other States that may not necessarily need to prepare for that, it is a huge undertaking on how you are going to 

mesh those together and come up with a quantifiable and 

qualifiable answer to give you on how prepared are we. 

I can speak from firsthand knowledge of being a volunteer in 

Prince George’s County, understanding the equipment that was 

provided to me at that time many years ago, progressing into a career position with the City of Fairfax, and knowing the advanced 

equipment that was provided at that time. The money that has 

been invested into our first responders and capability I can attest 

to firsthand, and it provides for safety, it provides interoperability 

and communications. But to take that information and quantify it 

and say what good has it done collectively, I think we have a lot 

of work to do on that. So, if confirmed, I look forward to working 

with you on that, and this Committee, and progressing through 

and looking at the C-2-C program that we have already invested 

in and seeing where that takes us. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Good. Thank you. Senator Collins. 

Senator COLLINS. Let me pick up where the Chairman just left 

off in talking to you about the C-2-C program. It is my understanding that just last week the Department sent out an e-mail 

telling the pilot participants that the Department has decided to 

close the pilot. It looks like they are halting it because of negative 

feedback from the State and local users. 

I applaud FEMA for being responsive to the needs and concerns 

of stakeholders, but I am concerned that this pilot, which has been 

in existence for 19 months, has still not been brought to fruition. 

And if we are reading the e-mail correctly, it looks like it may 

never be brought to fruition. That obviously is not acceptable. 

It seems to me that FEMA would have been much better off if 

at the beginning of designing a program to assess the value and 

effectiveness of grant investments, it brought together the first responder communities, State emergency managers, local emergency 

managers, and sat down and discussed what is the best way to assess the effectiveness of the Federal investment. That is sort of a 

negotiated rulemaking approach, which I think always improves 

the process. 

How do you plan to proceed with this initiative now? 

Ms. HARMAN. That is a very wise suggestion you make to bring 

stakeholders together, and obviously, that is what we want to do. 

We want to be careful with any measurement tool. As the Federal 

Government, we are responsible to say what good our funding and 

our support has gotten us. What is our return on investment? 

What good have we done over all of these years? 

Stakeholder involvement is very important, and not everyone 

who sits around the table—they need to be invited to the table. 

They do not always get what they want. There is a little bit of push 

and shove sometimes. But we want to make sure folks have the 

money, have the funding to build the capabilities, but they need to 

understand, they need to report to us in some fashion, in some 


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metric that we determine what that is collectively, hopefully, so 

that we do not burden them with any reporting requirements. 

As the Chairman indicated earlier, there are numerous grant 

programs out there, all of them on various different cycles, different grant periods, different reporting requirements. It can be 

very challenging. 

I am not familiar with the e-mail that you referenced. However, 

the advantage that I see to the C-2-C program—although it has 

taken a long time and I am not familiar with the inception of that, 

so I will certainly look into that, if confirmed—is that it is building 

on existing investments that the Federal Government has already 

made. It is looking and using metrics such as the target capabilities list, the universal task list, the national scenarios as a foundation for measurement, which I think is an asset to the program, 

but how that works, we need to really look at that. 

Pilot phases, it is good that there is stakeholder involvement, 

and I am curious to see what would halt—I do not know if it was 

halted or we are just moving into another phase of that. But knowing the investment that has already been made into the C-2-C program, I certainly, if confirmed, will take a look at that and find out 

where we are. We do not want to throw the baby out with the bath 

water, but if there are improvements that can be made and stakeholder involvement that has already come in, and if it has not come 

in, we need to make sure it does come in, so that we have a solid 

program and can make a determination whether we need to move 

forward or move into another direction. 

Senator COLLINS. Thank you. I want to bring up an issue that 

was covered in some of the pre-hearing questions. As you know, 

most of the DHS grant programs contain a requirement that the 

grantee match part of the grant, and the reason for that and the 

reason that I have supported having some kind of match is you 

want the State or local entity to be invested, to have some skin in 

the game, to make sure that it is not just a Federal handout but, 

rather, a true partnership to improve capabilities. But in your response to a pre-hearing question, you expressed concern about the 

use of matches. 

Now, I recognize that we are in very difficult economic times 

right now, and there may be a valid reason to suspend or lower the 

match to get us through this budget time that is causing so many 

State and local governments to have to cut back. But, in general, 

your concern seems to be over the administrative burden of the 

match requirement. 

I need to clarify this issue with you. What is your view on requiring a match from the grantee? 

Ms. HARMAN. I respect your approach and your desire to have 

matches in the programs, and certainly I understand that there is 

various legislation, the 9/11 Act and others, that requires matches 

in the grant programs. And certainly if that is legislated, that is 

how the grants will be executed. 

The question in the questionnaire referenced my answer to 

whether or not I thought a match should be waived. My question 

back was: What good do matches do for us? What do we get? Aside 

from a concept of buy-in, I have not seen any data that suggests 

that matches get us a better bang for the buck at the end. I think 


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in theory they do. You would think if you are a teenager and you 

are going to buy a $25,000 car and your father says, ‘‘I will give 

you a $25,000 car if you put $5,000 into it,’’ that is great. I am 

thrilled. But when it comes to grant dollars, what does that mean 

for our grantees and the end user? Are they deterred by that? Do 

they not apply because there is a match? Do they finally get to the 

point where they are eligible to apply for a grant that requires a 

match, receive it, and then go through some sort of hardship, 

whether it is the economy or personal business hardship, that requires them to turn that money back in to us? What does that 

mean for the program? 

So I throw those questions out there and, if confirmed and I am 

asked if a grant should require a match, if we should negate an existing match, or if a grant should be waived, my personal experience with administering grants with matches, it was a disaster. It 

was very difficult. You have cash matches. You have in-kind 

matches. The burden on doing the math behind an in-kind match 

and sometimes internally having interpretation differences between 

the programmatic side and the accounting side takes away the 

focus from the program when you are just worried about numbers 

sometimes on a page. 

So I think, if confirmed in this position and I am asked should 

a match be required, should it be waived, should it be negated, I 

would like to see the data to see what does that do for us? Do we 

have more applicants when a match is not required? Do we have 

less applicants? And if we are looking to really provide a diverse 

support for folks, particularly in small rural areas that may not 

have the infrastructure, the administrative support, or the cash to 

calculate and pony up that 25 percent, or whatever it may be, we 

might be deterring them from building the capability. 

So I just want to make sure that, if confirmed and I am in this 

position, I have the data to properly inform either the Secretary 

who has the option of making a waiver or this Committee to decide 

what you want to do with the legislation as opposed to just using 

my personal experience where I did not care for a match. 

Senator COLLINS. Well, I am concerned about your response. It 

is certainly understandable from the perspective of a local or State 

official or first responder that you would want no match at all. I 

mean, who would not want just Federal money? But I think if we 

are talking about ensuring high-quality, needed equipment, personnel, training, that having some sort of match, not a burdensome 

one that prohibits the application from going forward, not one that 

is so burdened with paperwork that it becomes impossible, as you 

have suggested, but rather a match that shows that there is a serious commitment at the State or local level to me is absolutely essential because otherwise I think we are going to see low-priority 

projects brought forward because if you are not paying anything 

and there is no accountability at the State or local level for the investment there, I believe you will see lower-quality projects. 

So your response concerns me. I do not doubt at all that you are 

going to follow the law. That is not my issue. But I think you need 


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1Letter from Ms. Harman submitted by Senator Collins appears in the Appendix on page 112. 

to think more about what the requirement for a match brings to 

the integrity of the program.1

Let me just very quickly ask you one final question, and I will 

submit the rest for the record, if I may. 

The Chairman and I did an extensive investigation into the attacks on our country on September 11, 2001, in the wake of the report by the 9/11 Commission. And what that report demonstrated 

is that terrorists do not always operate solely in the areas that 

they intend ultimately to strike. They plan, they recruit, they train, 

and they live in places like Norman, Oklahoma; Portland, Maine; 

Decatur, Georgia; Verona Beach, Florida. That is where the September 11, 2001, hijackers trained or lived or passed through. 

Therefore, I believe it is imperative that we build a baseline of 

capabilities all across this country. I will never forget that on that 

day, two of the hijackers started their path to death and destruction from Portland, Maine, even though their targets were elsewhere. And Secretary Napolitano has said before us that every 

area of America faces some level of risk. 

Are you committed to ensuring that smaller States, that every 

State has the resources and receives adequate Federal equipment 

and assistance to meet baseline capabilities, not only when it 

comes to terrorist attacks, but also natural catastrophes which affect every State? 

Ms. HARMAN. Absolutely. Clearly, the legislation that sets forth 

in the 9/11 Act prioritizes the grants on risk and vulnerability, and 

we do have small town rural America that we also have to be concerned about, and some of those individuals and organizations may 

not necessarily have the high risk that would allow them to receive 

direct funding. In those instances, it is very important for them— 

and, if confirmed, I mentioned earlier one of my priorities is outreach. Those locals need to coordinate closely with their State administrative agencies, and we need to ensure at FEMA that those 

States have comprehensive plans to build capabilities, not just in 

the high-risk places, but to understand that those individuals who 

may have to evacuate the high-risk areas should something happen 

and are moving out into the more rural areas, they need to be prepared out there as well. 

So outreach is key to me. Coordination of existing grant programs to maximize their effectiveness, I think, needs to occur in 

every single State, and they need to focus on their individual 

threats and the potential threats that they could have. 

Senator COLLINS. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Senator Collins. 

Ms. Harman, thank you. I think you have been very impressive. 

We have asked you some tough questions. You have a lot of experience. You have thought about the answers, and I am sure at Senator Collins’ invitation you will think twice about some of the answers. 

Ms. HARMAN. I will, sir. Thank you. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. But I have been impressed. I must say I 

am also impressed by your family. It is quite remarkable that you 

are from a family that has been so involved in public service, now 


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in the second generation. That says a lot about the stock from 

which you have emerged. 

Without objection, the record of the hearing will be kept open 

until 12 noon tomorrow for the submission of any written questions 

or statements for the record. 

Again, I hope that the Committee can approve your nomination 

rapidly and see if we can get you confirmed by the Senate before 

Christmas. But for now, I thank you for a long career of public 

service and for your willingness to, if confirmed, take on this responsibility. 

Ms. HARMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Senator Collins. 

Thank you very much. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. The hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:20 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 


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