U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

46–853 CC WASHINGTON : 1998

HEARING ON H.R. 2098 AND H.R. 2989

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS AND PUBLIC

LANDS

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FIFTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

ON

H.R. 2098

TO ESTABLISH THE NATIONAL CAVE AND KARST RESEARCH INSTITUTE IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO,

AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES. ‘‘NATIONAL CAVE AND

KARST RESEARCH INSTITUTE ACT OF 1997’’

H.R. 2989

TO DIRECT THE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR TO

CONVEY TO THE ST. JUDE’S RANCH FOR CHILDREN,

NEVADA, APPROXIMATELY 40 ACRES OF LAND IN

LAS VEGAS, NEVADA, TO BE USED FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF FACILITIES FOR THE RESIDENTIAL

CARE AND TREATMENT OF ADJUDICATED GIRLS

FEBRUARY 5, 1998, WASHINGTON, DC

Serial No. 105–59

Printed for the use of the Committee on Resources

(
(II)

COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES

DON YOUNG, Alaska, Chairman

W.J. (BILLY) TAUZIN, Louisiana

JAMES V. HANSEN, Utah

JIM SAXTON, New Jersey

ELTON GALLEGLY, California

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee

JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado

JOHN T. DOOLITTLE, California

WAYNE T. GILCHREST, Maryland

KEN CALVERT, California

RICHARD W. POMBO, California

BARBARA CUBIN, Wyoming

HELEN CHENOWETH, Idaho

LINDA SMITH, Washington

GEORGE P. RADANOVICH, California

WALTER B. JONES, JR., North Carolina

WILLIAM M. (MAC) THORNBERRY, Texas

JOHN SHADEGG, Arizona

JOHN E. ENSIGN, Nevada

ROBERT F. SMITH, Oregon

CHRIS CANNON, Utah

KEVIN BRADY, Texas

JOHN PETERSON, Pennsylvania

RICK HILL, Montana

BOB SCHAFFER, Colorado

JIM GIBBONS, Nevada

MICHAEL D. CRAPO, Idaho

GEORGE MILLER, California

EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts

NICK J. RAHALL II, West Virginia

BRUCE F. VENTO, Minnesota

DALE E. KILDEE, Michigan

PETER A. DEFAZIO, Oregon

ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American

Samoa

NEIL ABERCROMBIE, Hawaii

SOLOMON P. ORTIZ, Texas

OWEN B. PICKETT, Virginia

FRANK PALLONE, JR., New Jersey

CALVIN M. DOOLEY, California

CARLOS A. ROMERO-BARCELO ́ , Puerto

Rico

MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York

ROBERT A. UNDERWOOD, Guam

SAM FARR, California

PATRICK J. KENNEDY, Rhode Island

ADAM SMITH, Washington

WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts

CHRIS JOHN, Louisiana

DONNA CHRISTIAN-GREEN, Virgin Islands

RON KIND, Wisconsin

LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas

LLOYD A. JONES, Chief of Staff

ELIZABETH MEGGINSON, Chief Counsel

CHRISTINE KENNEDY, Chief Clerk/Administrator

JOHN LAWRENCE, Democratic Staff Director

SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS AND PUBLIC LANDS

JAMES V. HANSEN, Utah, Chairman

ELTON, GALLEGLY, California

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee

JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado

WAYNE T. GILCHREST, Maryland

RICHARD W. POMBO, California

HELEN CHENOWETH, Idaho

LINDA SMITH, Washington

GEORGE P. RADANOVICH, California

WALTER B. JONES, JR., North Carolina

JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona

JOHN E. ENSIGN, Nevada

ROBERT F. SMITH, Oregon

RICK HILL, Montana

JIM GIBBONS, Nevada

ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American

Samoa

EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts

BRUCE F. VENTO, Minnesota

DALE E. KILDEE, Michigan

FRANK PALLONE, JR., New Jersey

CARLOS A. ROMERO-BARCELO ́ , Puerto

Rico

MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York

ROBERT A. UNDERWOOD, Guam

PATRICK J. KENNEDY, Rhode Island

WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts

DONNA CHRISTIAN-GREEN, Virgin Islands

RON KIND, Wisconsin

LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas

ALLEN FREEMYER, Counsel

TOD HULL, Professional Staff

LIZ BIRNBAUM, Democratic Counsel
(III)

C O N T E N T S

Page

Hearing held February 5, 1998 .............................................................................. 1

Statements of Members:

Bingaman, Hon. Jeff, a Senator in Congress from the State of New

Mexico ............................................................................................................ 6

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 6

Ensign, Hon. John, A Representative in Congress from the State of

Nevada ........................................................................................................... 10

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 11

Letter submitted by Mr. Ensign .............................................................. 49

Faleomavaega, Hon. Eni F.H., a Delegate from American Samoa ............... 1

Gibbons, Hon. Jim, a Representative in Congress from the State of Nevada ................................................................................................................ 11

Hansen, Hon. James V., a Representative in Congress from the State

of Utah, prepared statement of .................................................................... 2

Letter to Mr. Hansen ....................................................................................... 2,3

Redmond, Hon. Bill, a Representative in Congress from the State of

New Mexico, prepared statement of ............................................................ 20

Skeen, Hon. Joe, a Representative in Congress from the State of New

Mexico ............................................................................................................ 4

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 42

Statements of witnesses:

Culp, Carson ‘‘Pete’’, Assistant Director for Minerals, Realty and Resource

Protection, Bureau of Land Management ................................................... 9

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 31

Holly, Jean-Claude, National Board of Trustees of St. Jude’s Ranch for

Children, Business Committee .................................................................... 22

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 58

Hunt, Lorraine T., Vice Chair, Board of County Commissioners, Clark

County, Las Vegas, Nevada, prepared statement of .................................. 46

Soukup, Michael A., Associate Director, Natural Resource Stewardship

and Science, National Park Service, Department of the Interior ............. 8

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 30

Ward, Father Herbert, Jr., President and Chief Executive Officer, St.

Jude’s Ranch for Children ............................................................................ 20

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 50

Additional material supplied:

Text of H.R. 2098 .............................................................................................. 34

Text of H.R. 2989 .............................................................................................. 38
(1)

HEARING ON H.R. 2098, TO ESTABLISH THE

NATIONAL CAVE AND KARST RESEARCH INSTITUTE IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO,

AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES. ‘‘NATIONAL

CAVE AND KARST RESEARCH INSTITUTE

ACT OF 1997’’; AND H.R. 2989, TO DIRECT

THE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR TO

CONVEY TO THE ST. JUDE’S RANCH FOR

CHILDREN, NEVADA, APPROXIMATELY 40

ACRES OF LAND IN LAS VEGAS, NEVADA,

TO BE USED FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF

FACILITIES FOR THE RESIDENTIAL CARE

AND TREATMENT OF ADJUDICATED GIRLS

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 1998

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS AND PUBLIC LANDS, COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES, Washington, DC.

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:17 a.m., in

room 1324, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Eni F.H.

Faleomavaega, presiding.

STATEMENT OF HON. ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, A DELEGATE

FROM AMERICAN SAMOA

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. In the good spirit of bipartisanship this

morning, I would like to personally welcome Senator Bingaman

and our good friend, Congressman Joe Skeen. The chairman should

be here very shortly, so as the Ranking Democrat on the Subcommittee, I would like to begin the hearing this morning. I would

like to welcome everybody to this hearing on H.R. 2098 and H.R.

2989.

The first bill, H.R. 2098, which was introduced by Congressman

Joe Skeen of New Mexico, is to establish a National Cave and

Karst Research Institute in the State of New Mexico. The institute

would be located near Carlsbad Caverns National Park in New

Mexico and jointly managed by the National Park Service and

other private or public entities as determined by the Secretary.

Funding for the establishment and management of the institute

would come from appropriate moneys, but only to the extent that

these moneys match an equal amount of funding from non-Federal
2

sources. The Senate has already passed identical legislation in

companion bill S. 231.

[The text of H.R. 2098 may be found at end of hearing.]

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. The second bill is H.R. 2989 and this bill is

introduced by Congressman John Ensign of Nevada. It would direct

the Secretary of the Interior to convey 40 acres of land to the St.

Jude’s Ranch for Children in Las Vegas, Nevada. St. Jude’s Ranch

is a non-denominational nationally recognized community which

serves the needs of abused, abandoned, and neglected children. The

40 acres to be conveyed will be used by St. Jude’s Ranch to construct a new campus that will house over 100 adjudicated girls,

along with other facilities such as a library, chapel, and recreation

center. The land is currently managed by the Bureau of Land Management.

[The text of H.R. 2989 may be found at end of hearing.]

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I would like to welcome our two colleagues,

Senator Bingaman and Congressman Joe Skeen for their testimony. Welcome, gentlemen.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Hansen follows:]

STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES V. HANSEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE

STATE OF UTAH

Good morning everyone and welcome to the hearing today. We are going to hear

testimony on two bills: One in regard to establishing the National Cave and Karst

Research Institute in New Mexico and the other regarding a land conveyance in Nevada.

The first bill is H.R. 2098 which was introduced by Congressman Joe Skeen of

New Mexico to establish the National Cave and Karst Research Institute in the

State of New Mexico. The Institute would be located near Carlsbad Caverns National Parks in New Mexico and jointly managed by the National Park Service and

other private or public entities as determined by the Secretary. Funding for the establishment and management of the Institute would come from appropriated moneys, but only to the extent that these moneys match an equal amount of funding

from non-Federal sources. The Senate has already passed identical legislation in a

companion bill, S. 231.

The second bill is H.R. 2989. This bill was introduced by Congressman John Ensign of Nevada and would direct the Secretary of the Interior to convey 40 acres

of land to the St. Jude’s Ranch for Children in Las Vegas, Nevada. St. Jude’s Ranch

is a non-denominational nationally recognized community which serves the needs of

abused, abandoned, and neglected children. The 40 acres to be conveyed will be used

by St. Jude’s Ranch to construct a new campus that will house over 100 adjudicated

girls along with other facilities such as a library, chapel, and recreation center. The

land is currently managed by the Bureau of Land Management.

I would like to welcome two of my colleagues and a member of the Senate who

will testify today—Congressmen Joe Skeen and Bill Redmond both from New Mexico. In addition, we have Senator Jeff Bingaman from New Mexico. We are pleased

to have you gentlemen here today and thank you for coming.

I also want to welcome the Administration and the other witnesses who are testifying at the today’s hearing.

LETTER TO MR. HANSEN FROM MR. ORAN MEANS, PRESIDENT, CARLSBAD

DEPARTMENT OF DEVELOPMENT

CARLSBAD DEPARTMENT OF DEVELOPMENT,

CARLSBAD, NEW MEXICO,

January 26, 1998.

The Honorable JAMES V. HANSEN,

Subcommittee on National Parks and Lands,

U.S. House of Representatives,

Washington, DC.

Re: Hearing—February 5, 1998
3

Dear REPRESENTATIVE HANSEN: As President of the Carlsbad Department of Development, the leading economic development agency serving the city of Carlsbad

and Eddy County, New Mexico, I am writing today to express our strong support

for the passage of the legislation creating the National Cave & Karst Research Institute in the Carlsbad Caverns area. We would like to extend our heartfelt appreciation of your efforts in making this proposal a reality.

As you are aware, The National Cave & Karst Research Institute Study. A Report

to Congress, dated December, 1994, completed by the Southwest Regional Office of

the National Park Service selected the Carlsbad area in a national search as a viable site for the Institute, primarily for the following reasons:

• Although some other areas under consideration could be viable sites for the

Institute, the Carlsbad location was seen to have broad support from private

and political (local, state, and regional) sources. Assuming that the management

framework for the Institute was set up appropriately, other cave resource areas

would also benefit.

•The local cave resources are extremely varied and unique. Relatively short

drives lead to gypsum karst, alpine karst, and lava pseudo-karat, as well as to

the unique limestone caves of the Guadalupe Mountains’ own unique karst. Additionally, Lechuguilla Cave and Carlsbad Caverns are nationally renowned.

•The Carlsbad Environmental Monitoring & Research Center could serve as an

associated resource, and could minimize the academic isolation of the Carlsbad

area.

•The local oil and gas industry would be supportive of such a venture, and

could be potential sponsors.

•There are three Federal land management agencies located in the area, all of

which would support a research institute, because each has major cave management responsibilities.

The National Cave & Karst Research Institute in Carlsbad, NM, is proposed to

be jointly administered by the National Park Service and New Mexico State University. A Memorandum of Understanding has been drafted whereby the National Park

Service and New Mexico State University agreed on the format for the planning

phase and the funding of this program. A draft Management and Operation Plan,

completed in June, 1996, as a cooperative effort of the National Park Service, U.S.

Department of the Interior, New Mexico State University, Carlsbad Environmental

Monitoring & Research Center, and the Carlsbad Department of Development, has

also been completed. The Carlsbad community is dedicated to seeking matching

funds as needed for the creation of the National Cave & Karst Research Institute

and in creating a Federal/State/Private partnership to accomplish our goals.

The establishment of the National Cave & Karst Research Institute in the Carlsbad area would bring further national and international recognition of Carlsbad and

Eddy County as a center of scientific research and excellence. The CDOD, representing 120 CEO of industry, business, and financial institutions, the city of

Carlsbad, Eddy County Board of Commissioners, New Mexico State UniversityCarlsbad, College of the Southwest, and the Carlsbad Chamber of Commerce, request your continued support and consideration of the creation of the National Cave

& Karst Research Institute in the Carlsbad Caverns National Park area.

Sincerely,

ORAN MEANS,

President.

LETTER TO MR. HANSEN FROM WILLIAM B. CONROY, PRESIDENT, NEW MEXICO STATE

UNIVERSITY

NEW MEXICO STATE UNIVERSITY,

LAS CRUCES, NEW MEXICO,

January 30, 1998.

The Honorable JAMES V. HANSEN,

Chairman, Subcommittee on National Parks and Public Lands,

Committee on Resources,

U.S. House of Representatives,

Washington, DC.

Dear Chairman Hansen:

I am writing to express New Mexico State University’s strong support and endorsement of H.R. 2098 (S. 231) the national Cave and Karst Research Institute Act

of 1997. The University is pleased to be able to join with the numerous groups, organizations, and individuals who support this exciting research and education oppor-
4

tunity for New Mexico and the nation. I am aware of the strong and unified support

for the Institute by New Mexico’s entire congressional delegation, the people of

Carlsbad and Eddy County, and by citizens throughout New Mexico and the United

States who value our unique natural resources and realize the importance of research and education in preserving them.

New Mexico State University (NMSU) faculty from a variety of relevant disciplines stand ready to lend their scientific expertise to help meet the goals of the

Cave and Karst Research Institute. NMSU’s presence in the Carlsbad community

through its branch campus and environmental monitoring center places it in an

ideal position to support the National Park Service and the local community in this

exciting and important enterprise.

I urge you to join your colleagues from New Mexico in support of legislation for

the establishment of a national Cave and Karst Research Institute (H.R. 2098).

Sincerely,

WILLIAM B. CONROY,

President.

STATEMENT OF HON. JOE SKEEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN

CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO

Mr. SKEEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you and

Chairman Hansen for holding this hearing today on H.R. 2098, legislation that establishes a National Cave and Karst Research Institute in the vicinity of the Carlsbad Caverns National Park in New

Mexico.

This important legislation will complete the commitment that the

U.S. Congress has previously made toward protecting our nation’s

cave resources, but more than that, it will be a major tool in providing our nation with the wealth of knowledge that our caves and

karst resources hold.

I would add very quickly that this legislation clearly states that

the institute will be located outside the boundaries of Carlsbad

Caverns National Park. I would also say up front that the legislation clearly calls for matching equal funds from non-Federal

sources for this important institute. It is my understanding that

the Congressional Budget Office has stated that there would be no

net budgetary impact for pay-as-you-go purposes of section 252 of

the Budget Act.

Support for this project at the local, State, and National levels

is overwhelming. An identical companion bill, S. 231 sponsored by

Senator Bingaman and cosponsored by Senator Domenici, has already passed the Senate, as you mentioned earlier.

Here in the U.S. Congress, the entire New Mexico delegation is

supporting this effort, and I would draw the Committee’s attention

to a National Park Service 1994 study on this subject which supports the establishment of a National Cave and Karst Research Institute and supports the Carlsbad, New Mexico, site. This legislation is the first step in implementing the recommendations made

in the 1994 report.

Many of us today are latecomers to understanding the real importance of cave and karst systems. We have always been fascinated by the beauty and mystery of caves, but as we approach

the new century, cave scientists have now provided us with new

and important insights on caves and their importance. I was

amazed to find that 22 percent of our nation’s freshwater resources

are tied up in groundwater in cave and karst regions. The 1994

study shows us that caves provide us with important information

about natural resources, human history, evolution, and global cli-
5

mate change, as well as waste disposal, petroleum recovery, and

biomedical investigation.

In 1988, Congress recognized many of these facts when they

passed the Federal Cave Resources Protection Act, which is known

as Public Law 100–691. This law directed the Secretaries of the Interior and Agriculture to inventory and list significant caves on

Federal lands. It also instructed the Federal agencies to manage

the cave resources and disseminate information on caves, and in

1990, Congress continued its interest in caves and karst research

with the passage of Public Law 101–578. This law directed the Secretary of Interior through the National Park Service to establish

and administer a cave research program. Further, the study also

asked for a proposal to Congress examining the establishment of

the Cave Institute.

We have over 40,000 known caves in the United States and the

creation of the Cave Institute will complete the Congressional effort to come up with a comprehensive research, management, education, and preservation program for these important cave-related

resources.

It is natural for this institute to be jointly administered by the

National Park Service and another entity. The NPS already has

this kind of management model with its cooperation in park studies unit. The NPS would have the primary lead and ultimate responsibility for the institute and would retain indirect control over

its activities and programs.

The entity, more than likely an academic entity, would actually

plan, coordinate, and administer the institute and its programs.

The institute could be located either at the site of the academic entity or at a separate location.

The National Park Service has a long history of cave management dating back to the establishment of Mammoth Cave in 1941

and the inclusion some 75 years ago of Carlsbad Caverns into the

National Park System. Today, the National Park Service has a

strong mandate for managing and protecting cave systems, and

many of the NPS units contain significant cave resources. The National Park Service is working closely with other Federal land management agencies and a major educational institution will be able

to generate more government and non-government support for

these important activities.

The association between the Park Service and an academic entity

could also provide opportunities to enhance the mission of each entity, including the conduct of basic research, the dissemination of

scientific information to users, and the education of the public and

of professional scholars, according to the 1994 report.

As a senior Member of Congress, I truly understand the old ways

of doing things in Congress are over. The Federal Government has

developed new ways and new methods of funding important programs and new projects. These new partnerships can bring added

funding, improved research and program content to a project such

as this institute.

I would add one further major benefit. Whether we like it or not,

many people outside of Washington do not trust the Federal Government. Now, that is news, is it not? They think that the government is arrogant and they think it is out of touch with the citizens
6

of this nation. These partnerships open the door to full public disclosure and increase the public’s confidence in government and the

work that the project will produce.

For the record, I would like to include several letters of support

for the project from the local community and from New Mexico

State University, and I believe several may have been mailed directly to the committee.

[The information of Mr. Skeen may be found at end of hearing.]

Mr. SKEEN. Once again, I want to thank you and the Committee

for this hearing and I look forward to working with you on this important legislation.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Without objection, Congressman Skeen’s

statement will be made part of the record and all the related materials, as he had requested, for the record.

Mr. SKEEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Congressman Skeen.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Skeen follows:]

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Senator Bingaman?

STATEMENT OF HON. JEFF BINGAMAN, A UNITED STATES

SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO

Senator BINGAMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I will

also ask that my full statement be included in the record.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Without objection.

Senator BINGAMAN. Let me just say very briefly, I strongly support the bill which Congressman Skeen has introduced here. It is

a companion to a bill we passed already in the Senate. It will put

the Park Service in a position to work in partnership with New

Mexico and particularly New Mexico State University, we would

anticipate, in developing this research resource for the country.

There are people who have devoted their lives to the science of

speleology and I have just become aware of the intensity of commitment that many of those people feel. I do think that Carlsbad is

the right location for this, both because of Carlsbad Caverns and

because of the Lechuguilla Cave, which was, of course, discovered

several years ago and is generally considered a major cave resource

for additional exploration.

I strongly support this effort. I think it is a very responsibly

drafted effort and I hope very much the Committee here will pass

the bill and that we can send the bill to the President for his signature very soon. Thank you very much.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you very much, Senator Bingaman.

[The prepared statement of Senator Bingaman follows:]

STATEMENT OF HON. JEFF BINGAMAN, A SENATOR IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF

NEW MEXICO

Mr. Chairman, I appreciate this opportunity to testify before the Subcommittee

today concerning H.R. 2098 which will create a National Cave and Karst Research

Institute in Carlsbad, New Mexico. As you may be aware this bill is supported by

the entire New Mexico delegation and is a companion bill to S. 231 which passed

the Senate last year. I want to thank the Chairman for placing this bill on the agenda at this early date, and I hope that upon consideration here in the House, that

it will be enacted this year.

Mr. Chairman, as we approach the 21st century, one of the major issues we face

is the protection and management of our water resources. In America, the majority

of the Nation’s fresh water is groundwater—25 percent of which is located in cave
7

and karst locations. As a whole, 20 percent of the United States is karst, defined

as a landform characterized by sinkholes, caves, dry valleys, fluted rocks, enclosed

depressions, underground stream ways and spring resurgences.

Recent studies have indicated that research into cave and karst resources may

provide valuable information not only related to groundwater supply and contamination, but for waste disposal, petroleum recovery, climate change, and biomedical investigations as well. Caves also often have historical or cultural significance, and

many have religious significance for Native Americans. While other nations have

recognized the importance of developing information on the management of their

cave resources and have sponsored research in this area, the United States has

lagged behind.

For example, our National Park System manages 58 units with caves and karst

features, yet academic programs on these systems are virtually nonexistent. Most

research is conducted with little or no funding and the resulting data is scattered

and often hard to locate. The few cave and karst organizations and programs which

do exist, have substantially different missions and there is no centralized program

to analyze data or determine future research needs.

This bill is the culmination of a process that Congress started ten years ago to

address this gap in our scientific research programs. In 1988, Congress directed the

Secretaries of the Interior and Agriculture to provide an inventory of caves on Federal lands and to provide for the management and dissemination of information

about the caves. That directive created a heightened awareness of the need for expanding and coordinating cave research. In 1990, Congress responded by directing

the National Park Service to establish care research program and prepare a proposal for Congress on the feasibility of a centralized National Cave and Karst Research Institute in the vicinity of Carlsbad Caverns National Park.

The resulting Park Service report to Congress concluded that a National Cave and

Karst Research Institute is needed and that Carlsbad would be an ideal location.

The study report to Congress listed several serious threats to our cave resources

from a sheer lack of knowledge concerning how the management of surface lands

interacts with cave and karst areas. These threats include inappropriately placed

toxic waste repositories, and poorly managed or designed sewage systems and landfills.

Mr. Chairman, the National Cave and Karst Research Institute would begin filling this information gap through a coordinated research and education program. Its

principle goals would be to further the science of speleology, to centralize speleological information, to further interdisciplinary cooperation in cave and karst research programs, and to promote sustainable and environmentally sound resource

management practices. To accomplish these objectives, the institute would establish

a comprehensive cave and karst library and information data base, sponsor national

and international cave and karst symposiums, develop long-term research studies,

produce cave-related educational publications, and develop cooperative agreements

with Federal agencies having cave management responsibilities.

Mr. Chairman, the report to Congress also notes that for a number of reasons the

Carlsbad region is an ideal location for a research center of this type:

(1) The region boasts numerous world class caves and incredibly diverse cave and

karst resources including: gypsum and alpine karst systems, lava pseudo-karat; and

unique limestone caves;

(2) The local community fully supports establishment of the institute, and is actively pursuing a Federal/State/Local partnerships to create and maintain it. The

Carlsbad Department of Development (CDOD) which represents the business and

financial community, has already drafted a cooperative Management and Operation

Plan between the Park Service, New Mexico State University, and the CDOD; and

finally,

(3) The Institute could draw upon an array of academic and technical resources

in the Carlsbad area including: the experience of the National Park Service, the Bureau of Land Management, and the U.S. Forest Service, all of which manage cave

resources in the Carlsbad area, and the academic support of the New Mexico State

University Carlsbad Environmental Monitoring & Research Center which is prepared to coordinate research activities with the Institute.

The National Park Service currently anticipates that the Research Institute would

be jointly administered by the National Park Service and New Mexico State University and a Memorandum of Understanding has been drafted to that effect. Also, the

Carlsbad Department of Development, is committed to obtaining financial support

from local governmental and private resources. The CDOD believes that it can obtain, a matching grant from the State of New Mexico equal to the available Federal

funds.
8

Mr. Chairman, this legislation will help provide the necessary tools to help discover the wealth of knowledge contained in this important, but relatively unknown,

landform. Carlsbad, NM already has in place many of the needed cooperative institutions, facilities, and volunteers that will work toward the success of this project.

It is imperative that we take advantage of these conditions and establish the National Cave and Karst Research Institute.

I thank the Chairman and members of the Subcommittee for their time and for

the opportunity to testify in support of this legislation.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Again, without objection, the record will remain open for the next 10 days if there are additional materials

that people wish to submit and be made part of the record.

Gentlemen, thank you very much for your testimony.

Mr. SKEEN. We appreciate your interest.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I note also for the record that the National

Park Service did, in fact, conduct a survey or a study in 1994 and

the National Park Service does support this legislation and we

hope very much to submit it to the President for his signature in

the near future. Thank you very much, gentlemen.

We have some other people who wish to testify, Michael Soukup,

the Associate Director of the National Resource Stewardship and

Science, and Mr. Carson Culp, the Assistant Director for Minerals,

Realty, and Resource Protection from the Bureau of Land Management.

Gentlemen, welcome. Your statements will be made part of the

record and I would like to ask Mr. Soukup for his statement.

Thank you.

STATEMENT OF MICHAEL A. SOUKUP, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR,

NATURAL RESOURCE STEWARDSHIP AND SCIENCE, NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

Mr. SOUKUP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will just have a few

summary comments for you. I appreciate the opportunity to provide

the Subcommittee with the views of the National Park Service on

H.R. 2098.

The National Park Service supports this legislation. We feel it is

in sync with the kinds of activities that we ought to be promoting.

We are a manager of some of the finest cave treasures and karst

watersheds in the country and we are excited about this kind of effort.

There are two things we have to have, though, along with this

legislation and one is some appropriations to support it, but also

a partner or partners in order to carry it out.

We agree with the importance of the karst phenomenon. It is a

real repository of our groundwater and our drinking water and

with that kind of resource and the future needs for groundwater

resources, we think more information and more research and more

effort at synthesizing that research is a very high priority for the

National Park Service.

Along with those karst watersheds and those intricate flows of

fresh water through the limestone and dolomite materials are some

of the most remarkable resources that the Park Service manages.

The speleothems and the formations that make up those sites or

accompanying those sites are ones that we should intensively manage. They are sort of out of sight and sort of out of mind, but there
9

are many very difficult kinds of management issues associated with

caves and some of the larger caves with so many entrances.

We need more information. We need more education. And we

need to catalyze and synthesize the tremendous volunteer effort

that is out there. We see this institute as being that Federal contribution to pulling together the information that is out there and

to really help and support what has been pretty much a volunteer

kind of effort in cave exploration, in cave mapping, and in cave

management.

We think the institute ought to be set up with a very flexible approach. We have a fair track record of working with academic institutions. We believe it is very important that this institute have a

full partner and perhaps other Federal agencies also as partners.

We believe we could put together a very effective model that would

bring in both private and public and Federal partners and establish

this unit at a university. I think that would be a very smart move.

Let me just close. I think our management in the National Park

Service has been heightened. I think perhaps some of the members

may have read some of the press coverage of some of the new management issues that are coming up before us, some of the vandalism issues, some of the theft issues and so forth. We have started a cave management program in the 1990’s after the passage of

the Cave Protection Act of 1988 and we are putting some resources

into it, but we feel that this Cave Institute would provide a very

welcome and needed addition and a very, very important site of

synthesis of the information, the research, and the data that is

present and needs to be generated.

Mr. Chairman, that concludes my remarks.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Mr. Soukup.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Soukup may be found at end of

hearing.]

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Mr. Culp?

STATEMENT OF CARSON ‘‘PETE’’ CULP, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR

FOR MINERALS, REALTY AND RESOURCE PROTECTION, BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT

Mr. CULP. Mr. Chairman, I am here to address the other bill that

the Committee is considering this morning. That is H.R. 2989,

which is a bill to convey approximately 40 acres of public lands in

Las Vegas, Nevada, to St. Jude’s Ranch for Children. That is a facility for troubled, abused, and abandoned adolescent girls, and I

might note that——

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Mr. Culp, maybe we ought to revise our procedure here a little bit because we do have the chief sponsor of the

bill with us here this morning and I would like to offer my personal

welcome to the gentleman from Nevada, both gentlemen from Nevada, Congressman Ensign and Congressman Gibbons. Maybe before we have you respond, we will have our good friend from Nevada, Congressman Ensign, for his opening remarks concerning

this piece of legislation.
10

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN ENSIGN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN

CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEVADA

Mr. ENSIGN. Thank you. First of all, I want to thank the chairman for holding the hearing, especially so early in this second session of the 105th Congress. I want to welcome my fellow Nevadans,

Father Ward and John Holly. I deeply appreciate their efforts on

this project. Likewise, I understand Clark County Commissioner

Lorraine Hunt had wanted to be here today but was unable, and

I have her statement in support of this legislation.

[The prepared statement of Ms. Hunt may be found at end of

hearing.]

Mr. ENSIGN. Also, the Las Vegas City Council is expected to address a resolution in support of this bill in March. We do not expect

any opposition to that resolution by the city council. I have also a

letter for the record from State Senator John Porter in support of

this legislation, as well.

[The letter of Mr. Porter may be found at end of hearing.]

Mr. ENSIGN. This legislation is vitally important to southern Nevada and hundreds of young women facing tough situations every

day. H.R. 2989 would convey roughly about 40 acres of BLM land

to St. Jude’s Ranch for Children to construct a Good Shepherd

Campus for adjudicated girls.

St. Jude’s Ranch for Children has successfully operated a campus

for abandoned and neglected children for over 30 years. They are

now ready to embark on a project that is dedicated solely to the

rehabilitation and counseling of troubled girls, known as the Good

Shepherd Campus. Many of these girls are involved in drugs, prostitution, or other crime-related activities. They have been through

the court system and the next step for them is juvenile detention.

St. Jude’s and the Good Shepherd Campus would provide an alternative to juvenile prison for the less-troubled youth, for those

that can be turned around with some attention, love, mentoring,

and guidance. The Good Shepherd Campus allows us the opportunity to change lives. Mr. John Holly is with us today, who graduated from the Ranch for Children. As he will tell you from his

firsthand experience, the efforts of this organization have changed

his life and can change others.

We have an opportunity to provide 40 acres of federally owned

land to develop recreational, education, and religious services to

girls who deserve a second chance rather than sending them down

the road of ultimate destruction. This facility will not only help Nevada’s youth, but it will also house young women from neighboring

States like Utah, the chairman’s State.

Now, I understand the concerns of some who say we are giving

away our Federal assets. I am an ardent supporter of protecting

the American taxpayer. However, I believe the cost of these 40

acres, federally owned, is far outweighed by the benefits if we can

reform our at-risk children and provide an opportunity for those

girls to lead a life of success and happiness.

I want to thank the Ranking Member and I am looking forward

to letting the Committee hear the statements of Father Ward and

Mr. Holly. I am sure they will have some very enlightening words

to reflect their experiences.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I thank the gentleman from Nevada.
11

[The prepared statement of Mr. Ensign follows:]

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN ENSIGN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE

STATE OF NEVADA

Mr. Chairman. First and foremost I want to thank you for holding this hearing

so early in this second session and welcome my fellow Nevadans, Father Ward and

John Holly. I deeply appreciate their efforts in this project. Likewise, I understand

Clark County Commissioner Lorraine Hunt had wanted to be here today, but was

unable and she has a statement in support of this legislation. Also, the Las Vegas

City Council is expected to address a resolution in support of this bill in March. We

do not expect any opposition to that resolution by the City Council.

This legislation is vitally important to southern Nevada and hundreds of young

women facing tough situations everyday. H.R. 2989 would convey roughly 40 acres

of Bureau of Land Management land to St. Jude’s Ranch for Children to construct

a Good Shepherd Campus for adjudicated girls.

St. Jude’s Ranch for Children successfully operated a campus for abandoned and

neglected children for over 30 years. They are now ready to embark on a project

that is dedicated solely to the rehabilitation and counseling of troubled girls, known

as the Good Shepherd Campus. Many of these girls are involved in drugs, prostitution, or other crime related activities. They have been through the court system, and

the next step for them is juvenile detention. St. Jude’s and the Good Shepherd Campus would provide an alternative to juvenile prison for the less troubled youth—for

those that can be turned around with some attention, love, mentoring and guidance.

The Good Shepherd Campus allows us the opportunity to change lives. Mr. John

Holly is with us today who graduated from the Ranch for Children. As he will tell

you from his first hand experience, the efforts of this organization changed his life

and can change others.

We have an opportunity to provide 40 acres of federally owned land to develop

recreational, educational, and religious services to girls who deserve a second

chance, rather than sending them down the road of ultimate destruction. This facility will not only help Nevada’s youth, but it will also house young women from

neighboring states, like Utah Mr. Chairman. Now, I understand the concerns of

some who say we are giving away our Federal assets. I am an ardent supporter of

protecting the American taxpayer. However, I believe the cost of these 40 acres of

federally owned land is far outweighed by the benefits if we can reform our at-risk

children and provide an opportunity for those girls to lead a life of success and happiness.

Mr. Chairman, I am looking forward to letting the Committee hear the statements

of Father Ward and Mr. Holly. I am sure they will have some very enlightening

words to reflect their experiences. After hearing the success stories, I am confident

many members of this Committee will join me in my support of this legislation.

Thank you.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Mr. Gibbons, did you have any opening

statement?

STATEMENT OF HON. JIM GIBBONS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN

CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEVADA

Mr. GIBBONS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As a cosponsor of this

legislation, I, too, want to welcome our guests here today before the

House of Representatives and encourage all of us to listen closely

and listen carefully to the importance of this legislation on the future of many people in Nevada who benefit greatly from this action.

I want to congratulate my colleague, Mr. Ensign, as well, for

having introduced it and promoted it. I think it is in the best interests of not just those of us in Nevada but America, as well, to look

at this as perhaps the model for how we can improve the lives of

these young women.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for allowing me to have this brief opportunity to make a remark.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I thank the gentleman from Nevada.
12

I think we ought to pursue Mr. Soukup as a followup, since you

are testifying primarily on H.R. 2098. We just want to raise some

questions with you before proceeding on to H.R. 2989, if we could.

Mr. SOUKUP. Yes, sir.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. This is in reference to the Carlsbad Caverns

in New Mexico, am I correct?

Mr. SOUKUP. Yes, sir.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. How deep is this cave? I have never been

there. I plead ignorance on this.

Mr. SOUKUP. How deep is the cave?

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Yes. How far down is it?

Mr. SOUKUP. It is pretty far down, sir. I do not know the exact

specifications. I do have a person here that might be able to help

with that.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. That is all right. Submit it for the record.

Mr. SOUKUP. What is very interesting, sir, is below that in a very

deep cave is the Lechuguilla Cave, and it is the deepest cave, I

think, we have in the country, and it has just been discovered

about, I think, maybe 10 years ago, and it is even deeper than

Carlsbad. I can get you the depth if you would like.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Does this mean that after all these years,

we have never established an institute to conduct serious studies

of caves and of the sort, or is this something that just has been

thought of in recent years?

Mr. SOUKUP. As I suggested, a lot of the effort has been pretty

much a volunteer effort and those have been really quite remarkable. The non-profit organizations are out there. They are small,

and this effort, I think, would complement that very well. It has

really been almost a volunteer and a ground-up kind of effort, and

this would sort of, I think, synthesize and provide a long-term

memory and a very important function of integration of what is

being done already, and perhaps if we can talk the Appropriations

Committees into this, perhaps some seed money to encourage those

efforts.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. You mentioned earlier in your testimony

that the bottom line is that the National Park Service needs

money. What is the estimate of the appropriations that you are

looking for to make this feasible?

Mr. SOUKUP. We think the annual operating cost, the National

Park Service’s share will be about $1.2 million. Right now, we have

the 1994 report that you have as part of the record. We would like

to look at those figures again. That is a little bit old now, and a

lot of the outlay of funds would really be a function of how we proceed and what kind of partnerships we can build. We are also looking at the possibility of a structure, a building, which would cost

an additional several million dollars, depending on whether or not

we need it. We hope a strong partnership will be constructed that

would perhaps house this institute in structures in institutions

that are already available.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I gather that your office is working jointly

with Senator Bingaman and Congressman Skeen’s offices to see if

we can find some resolution to some of the problems and the concerns that you raised earlier?
13

Mr. SOUKUP. Yes, sir. I know that there is a lot of support in the

State of New Mexico for this and we think we can work with them.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I would like to turn the time over to other

members if they would have any questions concerning H.R. 2098

on the National Cave and Karst Research Institute. Any questions?

Mr. GIBBONS. I do have a question, if I may.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. The gentleman from Nevada. Go ahead.

Mr. GIBBONS. Thank you very much. I appreciate your recognition at this point.

First of all, Mr. Soukup, let me ask, if this is to be a partnership

in the construction of the National Cave and Karst Research Institute, what is going to be the structure of the makeup of this institute? Who will be in charge? Who will be the partners? And who

will be the controlling authority in terms of regulating the environment within which this research is to take place?

Mr. SOUKUP. Well, the Park Service should be the leader and the

agency in charge. We hope it will be a joint Federal-State or a Federal-private effort, and also if it is Federal, then perhaps we can

encourage the other agencies to put some resources in this so that

we can manage in a more uniform way across the Federal Government.

I believe it should be a Park Service effort. We have an enormous—we have 60 units with cave resources. We have a small cave

management program now. We have one of the world’s experts on

caves and a very small research budget that is not more than, in

any given year, $30,000 to $50,000 of seed money that we use to

develop cooperative studies.

Mr. GIBBONS. Have you had conversations with the State of New

Mexico on this, other than at the Federal level, in terms of their

participation?

Mr. SOUKUP. Yes. The Park Service has had an ongoing dialog.

There have been site visits. We know that there is an awful lot of

interest in the city of Carlsbad and New Mexico State University

in being a partner. It is important for us to work out the details

and have some appropriation so that we can go out with an opportunity to be a partner.

Mr. GIBBONS. In light of the fact that you indicated in your remarks at the bottom of page one that karst topography, water resources, caves are an important factor in our study of the history

of global climate change, what do we know so far from the studies

that we have already obtained about global climate change and

looking at caves?

Mr. SOUKUP. I cannot really give you a good answer to that. I

know it is an area that really has a lot to offer, just down to simple

things as studies of pack rat middens that are often found in caves

and they give us an idea of how the vegetation changes, how pollen

records change. They are a repository of a lot of information in that

they are repositories of materials that we can go back and look at.

My impression of what they have told us so far has been more

of the short-term kinds of things. We use them to look at issues

like changes in vegetation at Yellowstone National Park and so

forth, but I could not probably give you any good analysis of what

it means for global climate change in the larger picture. We could
14

provide that information, I believe, if we had a chance to go back

and do that.

Mr. GIBBONS. You said you already have a cave and karst research program with the National Park System today, and we have

the Federal Cave Resource Protection Act of 1988. What further

regulatory recommendations do you envision will be made from this

research institute that will either bolster, supplement, or detract

from those existing regulations under these laws?

Mr. SOUKUP. I am not so sure this will lead to any further regulatory efforts. Nothing comes to mind on how that would be done.

To me, this is more of an information gathering and synthesis kind

of effort, central data bases and better understanding and that

kind of stuff. How that relates into how we should manage better,

I think remains to be seen.

Mr. GIBBONS. So all the science that you generate from this institute will be a public record that will be available to anybody at any

time?

Mr. SOUKUP. Absolutely.

Mr. GIBBONS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. The gentleman from Michigan?

Mr. KILDEE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really have no questions on H.R. 2098. I will probably get some dialog with Father

Ward on the next bill. Thank you.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. The gentleman from Nevada, Mr. Ensign,

questions?

Mr. ENSIGN. No questions.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Just one additional question to Mr. Soukup.

The Carlsbad Caverns, is this under the BLM or is it under the

National Park Service? I am a little confused here.

Mr. SOUKUP. It is under the National Park Service, sir.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. But the land, it is not owned by the Bureau

of Land Management?

Mr. SOUKUP. We own, I cannot remember how many acres, but

we own basically the land that is over the top of the cave.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. So the BLM has nothing to do with the

caves?

Mr. SOUKUP. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I was a little confused here.

Mr. SOUKUP. Not to these caves, anyway. They have caves of

their own, and I think they would be interested in this institute,

but they do not have Carlsbad Caverns.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Mr. Culp, we would love to hear from you

now.

Mr. CULP. Certainly, Mr. Chairman. I will go back to H.R. 2989,

if I may.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Yes, by all means.

Mr. CULP. Is that where we are? Certainly, Mr. Ensign did a terrific job in describing the St. Jude’s program for young people,

which is an admirable program.

A little further background. St. Jude’s does have a lease under

the Recreation and Public Purposes Act with the BLM for a tract

that is a few miles away from the tract that is the subject of this

bill. That lease is under the R&PP Act provisions that provide for

transfers or leases to nonprofit organizations at 50 percent of ap-
15

praised value. So the annual rental for the other tract is about

$54,000.

The tract that is the subject of this bill, as I say, is a slightly

different tract that St. Jude’s has looked at and, it is my understanding, has better access to the utilities and, therefore, can be

developed at somewhat lower cost. We believe the tract is certainly

suitable for this purpose, subject to some routine actions, such as

hazardous materials clearances.

However, we would recommend processing the transaction under

current administrative procedures, which would be the Recreation

and Public Purposes Act, primarily because the bill would establish

a new standard for no-cost transfers as opposed to the current process, which is at 50 percent of appraised value and that, we believe,

would create some difficulties with some 160 R&PP Act leases and

transfers that have already occurred in the Las Vegas Valley and

the whole series of pending applications from similar organizations.

Having said that, if Congress goes forward to pass the bill, there

are a couple of technical matters that are covered in our submitted

testimony that we would recommend. One of those is to change the

time line from 30 days to 120 days to provide enough time for hazardous materials inventories and other actions that would need to

take place prior to the transfer.

The other principal change we think would make sense relates

to the reversionary clause of the legislation, which is standard in

both R&PP Act leases and transfers and similar legislation. That

would be simply that we use some standard language that we use

for other leases and that it be broadened to use the term ‘‘children’’

instead of ‘‘girls’’ to allow for some future decisions by St. Jude’s

that might include services to young men and not get us into looking at the issue of a reversion simply as a result of that kind of

change.

That concludes my remarks.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Culp may be found at end of

hearing.]

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Mr. Gibbons?

Mr. GIBBONS. Mr. Chairman, at this time, I will yield to the

sponsor of the bill, Mr. Ensign, and perhaps later will have a question.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Gladly.

Mr. ENSIGN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a few questions. First of all, we have gone kind of dual

tracks on this piece of land. St. Jude’s has put an application in

for the R&PP process. My question for you would be this. If the city

would agree that their name would be on it so that they could do

this for no money, would you be able to guarantee us or come as

close as you can to guaranteeing us that we could process this in

around 3 months instead of the 3 years that it takes?

That is one of the biggest problems that we have with the R&PP

process, that it takes about on average of about 3 years, and also

because with the city having their name on it, obviously, then they

could do it for no money. But could we get this thing done in the

3 months, 3 or 4 months, something like that, that would be a reasonable timeframe?
16

Mr. CULP. Mr. Ensign, as you know and as I mentioned, there

is a large number of applications under that Act and a number of

other realty actions in the Las Vegas Valley, big land exchanges

and so forth. But I believe I could certainly make that commitment,

if we could have 3 months or 120 days to process the transaction.

Certainly, you have mentioned an alternative, a potential alternative where there would be some sort of partnership between St.

Jude’s and the city or the county that would bring into play the

lower-cost provisions under the R&PP Act.

Mr. ENSIGN. That would be no-cost provision, right?

Mr. CULP. There are actually two provisions for city, county, and

State, or two procedures for city, county, and State governments.

There is the no cost for recreation purposes and there is a very

nominal cost for other governmental purposes. It is like $2 an acre

annual lease rental.

Mr. ENSIGN. Right. Obviously, I think that that would be reasonable.

Mr. CULP. Right.

Mr. ENSIGN. We think that this is very important legislation.

Last year, we had discussed in our public lands bill, there was a

place for some ball fields within the public lands bill and it was

brought up during the whole debate about 30 days, or that the environmental studies, the hazardous materials and that kind of a

thing, and the BLM had pretty much agreed that 30 days was

enough to be able to accomplish that last year. You note in here

that you would need at least 90 days, but last year it seemed that

30 days was enough to do that, so I would like your comments on

that.

Mr. CULP. I did not review the testimony from last year. I am

relying on what my staff has told me about 90 days.

Mr. ENSIGN. You see, this is similar to last year in that both

pieces are already marked for disposal.

Mr. CULP. I understand. Certainly, we would work to do it as

quickly as we could. Staff tells me it would take more than the 30

days.

Mr. ENSIGN. The bottom line, I think for this legislation versus

the R&PP is that I think everybody agrees that this is a worthy

thing to do, that this is one of those things that public-private partnership is a beautiful thing, that we can get something done for

some troubled girls who potentially many of them are going to be

able to turn their lives around and we are going to be able to, instead of housing them perhaps in prisons or leading a life of prostitution where they could be on drugs and end up with crack babies

and all the other things that could happen to a lot of these girls,

I think that we all agree that this is something that we need to

get done, whether it is legislatively or through the sped-up R&PP

process. We are willing to work with the BLM whichever way we

need to get this thing done.

So the purpose for the legislation is to make sure that this becomes a very, very high priority in the Las Vegas Valley, because

as fast as we are growing and with all the tourism, with all that

tourism, anyplace you have tourist populations, you end up with a

lot of runaways. You end up with a lot of troubled teenagers. That
17

is why we want to make sure that this thing is done as quickly as

possible.

I can speak on behalf of St. Jude’s that they are an incredible

organization, that they do a lot with the money that they get and

they do a lot of good for young people in southern Nevada.

Mr. CULP. We certainly agree that they are a terrific organization and we are certainly willing to work on the whole range of alternatives. My principal concern, I think, with the time lines is to

make sure we get the hazardous materials inventory done and

done properly. That is always a concern. But as I said, this is definitely a suitable area and a worthy purpose.

Mr. ENSIGN. The question is on the disposal process. Is that not

done, or why is that not done when something is marked as far as

the hazardous materials, if something is already marked for disposal.

Mr. CULP. Well, the issue there would be that the entity acquiring the property would take on the liability for those materials.

Mr. ENSIGN. And so the BLM, by doing these studies, is saying

that we are relieving you of any responsibilities?

Mr. CULP. That we are conveying land that is clean and does not

have that kind of baggage with it, yes.

Mr. ENSIGN. I guess I am confused because last year, the 30 days

seemed to be OK with a similar-type process and it is not OK this

year. I do not understand that.

Mr. CULP. I would be more than happy to check on that for you

and get you that.

Mr. ENSIGN. I would appreciate that. Just to make sure that we

have this very clear, are you saying that, first of all, that if we did

the city the way that I talked about as far as the city working in

conjunction with St. Jude’s, the city is on the application, that this

would be consistent with an R&PP for, say, the $10 per acre per

year type of a lease?

Mr. CULP. That would move it into the governmental category

where the costs are much lower, the nominal costs, right.

Mr. ENSIGN. And we could do this thing within, say, 3 to 4

months?

Mr. CULP. Yes.

Mr. ENSIGN. OK. Thank you.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. The gentleman from Michigan for questions?

Mr. KILDEE. I have no questions at this time, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Mr. Gibbons?

Mr. GIBBONS. Mr. Culp, in light of the fact that there have been

a number of questions regarding the time within which this application has been either presented or held now or awaiting decision,

what suggestions would you have for St. Jude’s Ranch for action

they might take to expedite this process, to help it along, that you

could suggest? Obviously, everybody is here waiting for the final

decision and outcome and I think it is important for you, those of

you that have control of this process, to enlighten all of us as to

this action that might be helpful to them.

Mr. CULP. Mr. Gibbons, I believe the first step under the alternative that we have been discussing would be for St. Jude’s to work

with the city or the county to form that partnership for this land,
18

to have the city or the county come in either with them or on their

own for the lease or patent under the R&PP Act.

Mr. GIBBONS. Now, once they present that type of a partnership

to you, will you tell us how long you anticipate it would take from

the date you receive that application with a joint partnership until

you make a decision on granting or conveying title or leasing the

property?

Mr. CULP. That is where the 90 days would begin, and as I indicated to Mr. Ensign a minute ago, we will look at what we perhaps

could do to shorten that period.

Mr. GIBBONS. Shorten it from the 90 days or complete it within

that 90-day period?

Mr. CULP. Complete within the 90 days and look at what opportunities there might be to shorten.

Mr. GIBBONS. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Donna?

Ms. CHRISTIAN-GREEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Culp, one of your comments was with regard to the 40 acres.

If this process goes through under the R&PP Act, do you still have

a concern about the 40 acres?

Mr. CULP. One of the other alternatives to reduce the cost to St.

Jude’s would be to look at the footprint of the facility and see if

less than 40 acres would suffice. Now, we have not seen a plan for

this facility, so I do not know for sure if a lesser acreage would

work, but that is another alternative to reduce the cost and we

mentioned that, I think, in the prepared statement.

Ms. CHRISTIAN-GREEN. Thank you. No further questions.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I have just a couple of questions, Mr. Culp,

and I am sorry we do not have a chart or something to show exactly where St. Jude’s Ranch is to where the 40 acres are. Where

in Las Vegas are the proposed 40 acres located? I think that might

be helpful to the members of the Subcommittee.

Mr. CULP. It is in the northern part.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. And where is St. Jude’s Ranch from the 40

acres that we are looking at?

Rev. WARD. The ranch is 25 miles south, in Boulder City.

Mr. CULP. That is an existing facility.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Let the other members see. So St. Jude’s

Ranch is how many miles from Las Vegas, Mr. Culp?

Mr. CULP. It is my understanding it is actually within the city

boundaries. Las Vegas has unusual boundaries.

Mr. ENSIGN. I can answer that question for you.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Please, for the record.

Mr. ENSIGN. Yes. St. Jude’s Ranch currently, not the one that

they want to build, right? They currently operate one out by Boulder City, which is outside of the Las Vegas Valley. It is out going

toward Hoover Dam. This one, the 40 acres, is actually very far

north, within the valley, but it is very far north, past actually really any development.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. OK. Is there development surrounding this

40 acres in question?

Mr. CULP. I have actually visited it. It is partly developed. It is

an area we tend to call a checkerboard, where there are some public domain parcels, of which this is one, and certainly some homes.
19

It is rather sparsely developed at the moment, I would say, but

with the growth that is occurring, it is pretty clear that this will

be an area where the metropolitan area is going to expand.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Is the——

Mr. ENSIGN. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Please.

Mr. ENSIGN. By the way, North Las Vegas—this is within North

Las Vegas and they have signed off on this. They think it is consistent. So it is the city of Las Vegas. Everybody, basically, the

local governments have signed off on this.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. It was mentioned, Mr. Culp, about some

hazardous materials. Are there hazardous materials on this property in question?

Mr. CULP. We do not know. It is a concern because the BLM

lands in this general area have from time to time been used as a

place to dispose of materials. So what we would have to do is a site

inventory to ascertain if there are or are not. When I was there,

I certainly did not see drums on the surface or anything like that.

But it is just part of the process that we have to go through, and

I certainly did not walk the whole 40 acres. We sort of did a little

windshield survey of it.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. This is not part of the downwind or anything of the sort, of dusts coming out of the nuclear explosions or

anything like that, is there, Mr. Culp?

Mr. CULP. No. No.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Or nuclear waste, for that matter?

Mr. CULP. It is basically a residential, a developing residential

area.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Would the BLM be willing to work with the

Subcommittee to come up with some alternative, since there seems

to be some concern concerning the provisions of the legislation, that

can still meet the needs of St. Jude’s Ranch?

Mr. CULP. Certainly we would, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I think maybe perhaps our next panel could

give us some more specifics on these areas that some of the members of the Subcommittee may want to raise some questions. Thank

you very much.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. We would like to call on our next panel, Father Herbert Ward, President and CEO of St. Jude’s Ranch for

Children, and Jean-Claude Holly, from the National Board of

Trustees of St. Jude’s Ranch for Children, the Business Committee.

We would like to welcome both of these gentlemen for their testimony.

Mr. GIBBONS. Mr. Chairman, I would like to reflect on your previous comment that those of us in Nevada are indeed concerned

that our children are going to glow green from the transportation

of nuclear waste into our State. We are concerned about that, make

no mistake about it.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I would suggest to my good friend from Nevada that the 1.2 million citizens of Nevada ought to protest. They

ought to come out with signs and let the rest of the country know

that it is not fair that this good State be made the dumping ground

of our nation. I think it is very unfair.

Mr. GIBBONS. And I hope you will join us.
20

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I would be more than happy to.

Because there is a vote on the floor pending, if we could just recess for about 10 minutes so that our good friends will return for

more questioning and the testimony. Father Ward, is that OK?

Rev. WARD. Yes.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you.

[Recess.]

Mr. ENSIGN. [presiding.] Just for the record, Mr. Redmond has a

statement on H.R. 2098 that he would like to submit for the record.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Redmond follows:]

STATEMENT OF HON. BILL REDMOND, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE

STATE OF NEW MEXICO

Thank you, Mr. Chairman for holding a hearing on H.R.2098, a bill to establish

the National Cave and Karst Research Institute, which would be located near Carlsbad Caverns National Park, New Mexico. I appreciate the opportunity to further

show my support for this bill, and for my colleagues, Senator Jeff Bingaman, and

Representative Joe Skeen.

In her statement before the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee on

May 21, 1997, Katherine Stevenson, Associate Director for Cultural Resources Stewardship and Partnerships at the National Park Service, said that, ‘‘Cave and karst

systems are vital to humankind in many ways.’’ The National Geographic Society

has identified the protection and management of water resources as one of the

major issues facing world society in the 21st century.

Most of the United States’ freshwater resources consists of groundwater. Of this

groundwater, nearly 25 percent is located in cave and karst regions, similar to those

in Carlsbad, New Mexico. Establishment of the institute will take a significant step

towards finding solutions for the unique problems that will be faced in the 21st century as our nation’s population expands and our natural resources become more critical.

H.R. 2098 directs the Secretary of the Interior to complete the process which was

begun a decade ago when the Federal Cave Resources Protection Act became law.

The study of the feasibility of establishing a centralized cave and karst research facility was directed in 1990 and has been completed since 1994. Now it’s time to

make this institute a reality. H.R. 2098 is the culmination of efforts by all members

of the New Mexico delegation who have served in the past ten years. I am proud

that I was able to be a part of the continuation of this effort.

Thank you again, Mr. Chairman, for your efforts on behalf of New Mexico. I look

forward to working with you in the future.

Mr. ENSIGN. I would like to welcome the next panel. We have Father Ward, President and CEO for St. Jude’s Ranch for Children,

and Jean-Claude Holly, National Board of Trustees of St. Jude’s

Ranch for Children, Business Committee. I welcome both of you

and look forward to your testimony.

STATEMENT OF FATHER HERBERT WARD, JR., PRESIDENT

AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, ST. JUDE’S RANCH FOR

CHILDREN

Rev. WARD. Thank you, Mr. Ensign. Thank you for the opportunity to speak on behalf of St. Jude’s Ranch for Children and the

Good Shepherd Campus and H.R. 2989.

The Congress, by recent reforms in welfare legislation, has challenged the private sector and local service organizations to assume

a greater share in providing for welfare needs. St. Jude’s Ranch for

Children is prepared to accept your challenge.

Thirty years ago, the municipal government of Boulder City, Nevada, conveyed 40 acres of desert land to begin St. Jude’s as a facility for the care of abused, battered, and neglected children. Today,

we are asking the Congress to do the same and convey to St. Jude’s
21

40 acres of desert land north of Las Vegas so we can rebuild the

Good Shepherd Campus for residential treatment of adjudicated

girls. By the way, we are not dependent on government sources for

operating expenses at the three campuses we presently run in Nevada and Texas, nor will we depend on Federal funds to operate

the Good Shepherd campus.

Several years ago, Ford Motor Company learned of our success

rate in breaking multi-generational welfare dependency through

our learn-to-earn program and began to support our greeting card

recycling project, which teaches workfare, not welfare. Recently,

Ford pledged us a $200,000 seed money grant to develop private

sources of operational funding and gave St. Jude’s a challenge to

be in 25 facilities by the year 2006. This infomercial film which will

go out nationwide in a marketing program to corporations features

Jason Priestly of ‘‘90210,’’ Ed McMahon, Alex Trautman, Chairman

of the Board of Ford Motor Company, and Claudine Williams,

Chairman of the Board of Harris, and other leaders. This will be

part of our fundraising. The new Good Shepherd campus for girls

will be just one of those facilities which Ford has challenged us to

establish.

From 1989 to 1991, at the request of the Nevada State Department of Human Resources, St. Jude’s attempted to keep the old

Good Shepherd program going after the Roman Catholic sisters

were forced to abandon the work due to the declining number of

nuns. We did a good job. The therapy department we introduced

into this locked facility began intensive work with the root causes

behind the girls’ delinquent behaviors. We discovered each of these

adjudicated delinquent youngsters had a history of sexual molest

and/or physical and psychological abuse.

As we treated the fractured self-images of each child, they began

to improve. During our administration, 100 percent of the girls who

took the State educational proficiency test passed it, a record unequaled in Nevada in either public or private schools. Unfortunately, the good sisters had deferred maintenance on their buildings for 26 years. They were grandfathered in, or should I say,

grandsistered in with this $750,000 asbestos abatement problem

and the violations of later more stringent building codes.

Our board decided, therefore, to let the lease lapse and seek

other opportunities of service in the State of Texas and to seek

other land to build the Good Shepherd. We are now ready to rebuild that Good Shepherd campus and the city of Las Vegas wants

that other piece of property that we had contracted for, hence my

visit with you today.

By the way, St. Jude’s is truly a non-sectarian organization.

While I happen to be an Episcopal or Anglican priest, the president

of our board when we were approached by Nevada Human Resources to assume running the Good Shepherd was Dr. Faye

Ulstrum Genecaro, a Mormon. The board president while we operated the program was Mrs. Lorraine Hunt, a Roman Catholic. And

the board president when we gave up our lease was Mr. Hal Ober,

who is Jewish. I hope you will help us meet the Congressional challenge to shoulder more of the welfare load.

In conclusion, the municipal government of Boulder City today is

proud of their contribution 30 years ago which helped establish St.
22

Jude’s. Thirty years from now, I believe that the Congress in session then will likewise be proud of your foresight in establishing

this partnership. Thank you again for your kindness in allowing

me to speak to you.

Mr. ENSIGN. Thank you.

[The prepared statement of Rev. Ward may be found at end of

hearing.]

Mr. ENSIGN. Mr. Holly?

STATEMENT OF JEAN-CLAUDE HOLLY, NATIONAL BOARD OF

TRUSTEES OF ST. JUDE’S RANCH FOR CHILDREN, BUSINESS

COMMITTEE

Mr. HOLLY. Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and members of the Subcommittee. My name is Jean-Claude Holly, Jr., also

known as John. I am a graduate alumnus, a board member, and

a business committee member of St. Jude’s Ranch for Children.

Let me begin by saying thank you for allowing me to participate

in this hearing regarding a matter that is a personal life experience

for me. Twenty-one-plus years ago, I was placed at St. Jude’s

Ranch because I felt and believed that my family and society had

given up on me, and to be candid with you, I had decided to give

up on them and was on the course of doing myself harm and giving

up on myself. Fortunately for me, St. Jude’s and Father Ward were

there to give me a new start, a place to rest, heal, and the resources that I needed to develop a productive future for myself.

St. Jude’s was established in 1966 when the city of Boulder City,

Nevada, decided to invest in the decision of Father Jack Adams

and four Anglican nuns from England and granted them 40 acres

that is now the national headquarters for this operation.

Had that not been the case, I seriously doubt that I would be before your Committee today and participating in a process which

most of our citizens seem to have a lack of faith in.

Also, as you can see, the St. Jude’s program is a continuous process that does not end or terminate when a family member leaves

or graduates from our home. It continues at various levels.

Therefore, I would like to state it is an honor and a privilege for

me to come before this body of decisionmakers and to boldly ask

you all to invest in the faceless, nameless children who are out

there at this very minute like I was. Give them the same opportunity to also benefit from the St. Jude’s experience and program

and help them to become productive, tax-paying members of our societies, as many of our graduates are out there at this present

time.

You can do this by voting yes on H.R. 2989 today, and who

knows what the future return on this investment will yield in the

foreseeable future. My bias allows me to believe that the unimaginable, like today, is very realistic.

I thank you all again for your invitation, time, and attention, and

I am at your disposal to answer your concerns regarding this matter. Thank you.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Holly may be found at end of

hearing.]

Mr. ENSIGN. Thank you both for wonderful testimony.
23

I want to start with you, John. Your testimony was moving, and

obviously, listening to you and looking at you, your life was turned

around. Can you just tell us a little more? First of all, how old were

you? Just maybe tell some of the things that went on to change

your life at St. Jude’s.

Mr. HOLLY. I came to St. Jude’s either at the end of October or

beginning of November 1977. I was 13 years old, going into the

eighth grade. I wound up in Las Vegas when I was shipped to my

father at the last minute to him. My grandmother, his mother, was

raising me and as a 13-year-old child with a lot of anger from past

mental abuse and physical abuse, I just was not interested in people who wanted me to be grateful just to be in their home.

I was ungrateful, I was unappreciative, I was not cute, I was not

smart, I was not as successful as some other of the family members

and I was not going to let anyone put me down. I would stick up

for myself and I would manifest that in ways that made people

think I would become a delinquent or a criminal. I did not do anything that was violent, but I would not let anyone compromise my

safety, or put me at risk.

When I got to Las Vegas, my father decided, well, this is not

something he wanted to take on. He was starting a new life for

himself and he wanted a new start. I came to the conclusion I did

not want a life with him, either.

Fortunately for me, I was placed at a halfway house and he came

there and we had an altercation. I was placed at the juvenile detention in Las Vegas. I was assessed there for about 30 to 40 days.

They decided that there was nothing in my background or in my

behavior that would deem for me to be kept at a State home or

what not, so I was taken out to St. Jude’s for a visit, interviewed

with Father Ward and the sisters there. My father and the case

manager that was there with me interviewed and it was decided

that I would be placed at St. Jude’s.

That is the best thing that has happened to me for the simple

fact that it gave me a fresh start from the perspective I had no baggage to answer to anyone about anything. No one knew why I was

there. I did not know why anyone else was there. So there was

nothing to live up or down to.

Being away from the verbal abuse and physical abuse gave me

a chance to concentrate on my schoolwork, which had lapsed. I was

in and out of school, thrown out of school for either behavioral

problem or did not have the right clothes, did not smell right, just

disruptive to the classroom, and my education was severely limited.

I was put in remedial courses. I had assistance from the ranch

staff. I had assistance from Father Ward’s wife-to-be. I had assistance from his father-in-law to come up to speed with my education.

While I was at the ranch, I finally was allowed to play with other

children, which other families did not allow me to play with. I was

the kid that you stayed away from. You did not associate with me.

As soon as I got to the ranch, that all changed and I was playing

with everyone. I was just another kid.

Through my course there, I worked my way through school. I

have achieved some success on the athletic map. I went on to the

military, pursued that for 4 years in the Marine Corps, was honorably discharged, decided that I did not want to do warehousing for
24

the rest of my life and worked my way through school. I graduated

as an accountant in 1995. I moved to Raleigh, North Carolina, after

that because I liked the lifestyle down there.

Mr. ENSIGN. Thank you very much.

Father Ward, John’s testimony is exactly what it is, testimony to

how a life can be changed. I was very impressed when you said

that 100 percent of the girls had passed the GED.

Rev. WARD. During the 2 years that we ran the program there,

we emphasized a lot of education and what we discovered, of

course, was that all of the girls there had some sort of either sexual

molest or physical abuse in their background. While they were sent

to St. Jude’s Good Shepherd because of criminal behavior, being

adjudicated delinquent, the background was so sordid that we had

to address that first, and by killing the root problem through our

therapy program, through Dr. Elizabeth Blake and her work, we

found that the leaves of the tree began to disappear, the petty prostitution, the drug abuse, the alcoholism.

I can give you one illustration. We started a program which was

called secondary virginity because so many of the girls had been

prostitutes and we said that when you make a decision in your life

that you want to be pure, you are pure at that moment. Though

your sins be scarlet, they shall be white as snow. It began to work

in a very marvelous way.

We had one girl who graduated from the program and called the

social worker to say she would like to be picked up at a local 7-

Eleven, and the social worker went to pick her up and she looked

like she had been hit by a Mack truck. She was black and blue.

She was bleeding from her lip and the social worker wanted to take

her to the hospital. She said, ‘‘No, I just need to talk to you.’’

She said, ‘‘You know in my case history that my step-father, my

mother’s current boyfriend, has been sexually abusing me since I

was 13, and after you told me that I could say no and I went

through the program at St. Jude’s,’’ she said, ‘‘I began to feel good.

I was returned home and he came to my bedroom the first day that

I was there and said, ‘OK, put out.’ ’’ And she said, ‘‘I told him, no,

I do not have to. I do not have to do what you told me to do. This

is wrong and I am not going to.’’

And she said, ‘‘He continued to threaten me for several days and

finally said, ‘‘if you do not, I am going to beat the blank out of you,’’

and she said, ‘‘I told him know and he did beat the blank out of

me.’’ She said, ‘‘I hurt. I hurt all over, but inside, I feel good.’’ Now,

that is the thing that has to change, is inside. But once it does

change inside, then we can see the other things happening.

So the 100 percent has to do with the educational testing, because what we found also in our studies is that children who have

low intelligence tend to accept the fact that this is just the way the

world is, but it is the youngsters with higher intelligence who rebel

against the unjustness of what is going on. So once we freed them

of worrying about who they are—I am no good, I am worthless, it

must be my fault—and they begin to concentrate on their studies,

at that particular moment, they begin to change.

Through our career opportunities fund, we will match dollar for

dollar any child that wants to go to college. We have one girl at

present who is a second year student at Harvard, another girl who
25

is a second year student at Dillard University. They came, of

course, from the St. Jude’s campus, not from the Good Shepherd

campus.

But we emphasize that and that is what caused Ford Motor

Company to want to back us, because they see that if we can get

this program out across the Nation in other spots, that we could

begin to set examples and standards that can help us turn this

country around.

Mr. ENSIGN. I thank you for that. The reason I wanted to hear

the personal stories before I asked a couple of questions on the policy matters is that when you put a face and a story, it can say it

so much more powerfully than quoting statistics and quoting whatever programs. I can tell you, having been up here and listened to

statistic after statistic, especially being on the Ways and Means

Committee, also, and going through welfare reform, you just see

what a disaster a lot of those things are in our country and it is

a great example of what you are doing and why I believe so strongly in the bill that we want to provide you every opportunity to do

what you are doing.

Just one last thing, and that is the asbestos that closed Good

Shepherd in the first place. Obviously, we have had to spend a ton

of money in southern Nevada, as schools all over the country have.

Just maybe your comments. It seems appropriate that if the Federal Government shut you down, it would be nice to see the Federal Government give you a start on the new campus and out of

the dust of asbestos and the crumbling of the old building, it would

be nice to see come out something much greater than we could

have ever anticipated with the old campus.

Rev. WARD. John, I think it is a partnership. It is a partnership

between the public and the private sectors, and in the long run, it

is going to really help the public sector because, as John mentioned, we are creating taxpayers. One of the things that is so exciting is that the young man who gave me the idea of the learnto-earn program, Pete Formica, has come back as a house parent,

and if I can just have 2 minutes to tell his story, because I could

never motivate him when he was a child. I could not get him interested in anything. I tried everything I could think of. I said, you

are an Italian. Italians are hard workers. But I say that to the children with German names or any name that I have got. I say, they

are good workers. It did not phase him.

Finally, I said, ‘‘Pete, when you grow up, you are going to want

to get married and have kids. Who is going to take care of them?’’

And without even thinking, he said, ‘‘The government.’’ That was

the wrong thing to say to me, because I grew up in the 1950’s and

1960’s when John Kennedy said, ‘‘Ask not what your country can

do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.’’ I really believe

that we are to be givers rather than takers. Certainly, there are

people in this country who are disabled that need welfare, but an

able-bodied person really needs to be motivated to work.

At any rate, Pete called me about a year ago to tell me that his

401(k) had reached a certain level that he could retire actually, and

here he is in his mid-30’s, and that he had bought this property

and he and Michelle figured, they had talked that they could roll

it over into their IRA and this, that, and the other. I mean, he was
26

going on and on and on. You talk about statistics, that is what he

was doing. I said, ‘‘Pete, get an accountant. Talk to an accountant.

Do not talk to me. I do not understand this.’’

But we talked for a few more minutes, and then about 2 months

later, he called me and he said, ‘‘Pops, you know the last time we

were talking, you said you need house parents at St. Jude’s.’’ And

he said, ‘‘So Michelle and I have been praying about it and we believe the Lord is calling us to be house parents at St. Jude’s.’’ And

I said, ‘‘Pete, I cannot afford you. I know how much money you

make. I know how much money Michelle makes. We only pay a

fraction of what you earn right now.’’ And he said, ‘‘Pops, it is not

about money. It is pay-back time. It is time I pay back the good

Lord for what he did for me at St. Jude’s.’’ This is what keeps me

going there, because it really is doing a good job.

Mr. ENSIGN. I want to thank you for that. I just wish that there

were a lot more members of the Subcommittee here to be able to

hear these testimonies.

I will turn it over to you, Mr. Faleomavaega.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Father Ward, thank you for coming, and Mr. Holly, I do not

think I need to say any more but commend you for your testimony

and the example that you have set not only for your peers but what

St. Jude’s has done for you.

I have just a couple of questions for the record so that perhaps

if other members want to look at it, they can get a better sense of

what we are doing here. What is the total enrollment at St. Jude’s

of the young people?

Rev. WARD. The total at our three campuses—we have two in

Texas—last year, we cared for 220 children. We are going into a

major expansion on the Boulder City campus to increase from 52

beds to 104 beds this coming year, and then, of course, with the

Ford Motor Company, if we go into 25 facilities by the year 2006,

we would be taking care of approximately 4,000 children.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. So for this proposed project, especially within the Las Vegas City proper, if this facility is to be built on this

40-acre parcel of land, you are looking at how many children?

Rev. WARD. Between 104 and 120. It depends. We did have this

other property that was under consideration, but the city of Las

Vegas wants it because they have land right next to it, the 40 acres

right next to it, and they are building a park there and as part of

their facility, they want this property. So that is where we got

started talking with the city of Las Vegas and the exchange of this

property for this property. Then finally, it seemed that it would be

just much easier to come and ask if it could be donated as the

Boulder City Municipal Council donated to us 30 years ago for $1,

so that we could get on with the business rather than just keep

dragging it on and on and on over these years.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. That is what I was going to ask in my next

question, and I am sure how closely you have always worked together with the city and county and State officials. I just wanted

to make it clear for the record, you have considered all other options?

Rev. WARD. Yes, sir.
27

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. And the city, as well as the State, really

have no other public lands available for this purpose?

Rev. WARD. That is correct.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. And this is the reason why we now have

this legislation, hopefully, that the BLM through the Secretary of

the Interior will convey this 40 acres that is needed for the project.

Rev. WARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Mr. Culp had mentioned earlier, also, suggesting that you do not want to treat just the young ladies. Is this

specifically the project that you are seeking?

Rev. WARD. Yes, sir. Actually, the continuum of care philosophy

that we are developing is based upon the fact that certain children

need certain therapeutic modalities. Girls who have been raped and

who have served as prostitutes probably do not need to be around

teenage boys with raging hormones, and so, therefore, it is much

easier for us to address their particular needs in an all-girl setting.

The facility in Boulder City is co-ed. One of the facilities in Texas

that we are looking at acquiring is a boys’ facility. Each child is an

individual and what we try to do is to address the individual needs.

When we did run the Good Shepherd for those 2 years, we found

that a couple of those girls really needed to be in a more open setting. We moved them out to Boulder City. We found one girl that

was placed with us. After she was there, we began to discover

through the therapeutic process that she needed a closed, lockeddown facility. We moved her to Good Shepherd.

The importance of that is that we are not turning them out. They

are still part of the St. Jude’s family. There is no more rejection,

and that is the one thing with children who have been abused. You

have to be careful about further rejection. If you read the case history of Charles Manson, you will find that he was in 18 different

foster homes before he was 17 years old, or foster homes and placements, and he says in that biography that he was going to get even

with society because of rejection. So what we have to do is through

unconditional love and unconditional acceptance of them, bring the

healing process to a point where they can begin to heal themselves.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. So your facility in Boulder City is co-ed?

Rev. WARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Do you have another facility where it is predominately just young males?

Rev. WARD. No. There is a place in Texas that we are looking at

taking over because it is bankrupt right now.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I see.

Rev. WARD. A lot of facilities, as you know, were dependent upon

government money, and with the welfare reform Act a couple of

years ago, they are having a difficult time operating. We went off

the welfare system, as I said, when I first got there because I wanted to teach the children to be self-reliant and we have developed

our own sources of funding. So, consequently, we are in a better

shape right now financially than other facilities.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I do not have any questions whatsoever in

terms of the validity of what is requested here by my good friend

in the proposed bill to provide this kind of assistance really needed

for such a worthy cause as St. Jude’s, but I wanted to ask, do you
28

think the Girl Scouts might also be asking for lands, because they

also——

Rev. WARD. I do not know. I do not serve on their board of trustees, so I do not——

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I think that seems to be the concerns that

some of the members may have. Like I said, I would be the first

one to want to do this and to give assistance to St. Jude’s and for

a very worthy endeavor here, and I suppose because we have so

many thousands and thousands of acres in Nevada, what is 40

acres that could be given to save human lives. I just wanted to

share that concern with you, but Father Ward and Mr. Holly,

thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HOLLY. Can I just add something to that concern about will

the Girl Scouts come or somebody else will come?

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Please.

Mr. HOLLY. That is possible, but do they have the track record

that St. Jude’s has? Can they take someone who may become a tax

liability and turn them into a tax producer? That is where the vision comes in and that is where you, as leaders, are different than

bureaucrats who have to dot the ‘‘i’’s and cross the ‘‘t’’s. You are

the visionary people that can make it happen. Like I said, who

knows in the near future or the foreseeable future what will that

result in. Thank you.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I want to thank Mr. Holly for that statement, Mr. Chairman, and I think it would also be helpful for the

record. I know there is a good-sized percentage of Federal lands as

part of the State of Nevada. I just cannot believe that 40 acres out

of 100,000, or——

Mr. ENSIGN. Actually, 87 percent of our State is owned by the

Federal Government. And also, we have to look at this land to the

Federal Government would be totally worthless if it was not for the

local people providing roads, providing phone service, power, and

the water, which we pay for because we are one of the few places

in the West that does not get the Federal help on the water

projects.

That was one of our arguments for our lands bill last year, is

that it is the local people who are bringing value to this land, because most of the land in Nevada is, as far as the marketplace, totally worthless. This land here would be totally worthless if it was

not for the local people developing around it, and that is the only

reason it is recognized as even an asset to the Federal Government.

So it would seem to me, because it just kind of fell in the Federal

Government’s lap because it did not have any rainfall—that is the

reason that nobody wanted the land in the first place—and because

local people have brought and made the land worth something, it

does seem that this is the type of thing that the Federal Government should be doing, and if it is St. Jude’s, great.

If it is somebody else with a proven track record, I do not think

this is a bad precedent. I think this is something we should be

looking at, because we look at all of the money that we have spent

in public housing and how we have destroyed people and made

crack houses out of public housing. We look at all of the other

things that we invest our money in and we can look at some and
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hear the stories and see the track record of something like St.

Jude’s. We should not even be questioning. Well, we should always

question, but that question should come up with an answer. The

answer is, yes, that this is the right thing to do.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Mr. Chairman, I think what Mr. Holly stated earlier was well taken. Look at the record and that speaks for

itself.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ENSIGN. Thank you, and I want to thank both of you for your

splendid testimony and for making the trip out here. Mr. Holly,

you have such a valuable role for young people because somebody

who has been there has such moral authority for those young people that are going through what you went through that I applaud

you for giving back because somebody gave to you, and thank you,

Father Ward, for your service.

Rev. WARD. Thank you.

Mr. HOLLY. Thank you for having us.

Mr. ENSIGN. The meeting is adjourned.

[Whereupon, at 11:56 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

[Additional material submitted for the record follows.]
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STATEMENT OF MICHAEL A. SOUKUP, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR FOR NATURAL RESOURCE

STEWARDSHIP AND SCIENCE, NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to provide the Subcommittee with the

views of the National Park Service on H.R. 2098, a bill to establish the National

Cave and Karst Research Institute. A hearing before the Senate Subcommittee was

held on the companion legislation, S. 231 last May. Also, similar legislation was introduced and a hearing was held before the Senate Subcommittee during the 104th

Congress. The National Park Service supports this legislation; however, funding has

not been requested in the Administration’s budget request. For the Institute to become a reality we need two things—funding provided by Congress for the NPS

share, and the public/private partners must match the Federal appropriations. Federal funding for this proposal would be contingent upon NPS budget constraints and

Administration priorities.

If enacted, H.R. 2098 would establish a National Cave and Karst Research Institute for the purpose of furthering the science of speleology, encouraging public education in the field, and promoting and developing environmentally sound and sustainable resource management practices. The Institute would be located near Carlsbad Caverns National Park. Management and operation of the Institute would be

based on a partnership between the National Park Service and a public or private

agency selected by the Secretary.

Cave and karst systems are vital to humankind in many ways. The protection and

management of water resources have been identified as major issues facing the

planet as we enter the 21st century. The majority of America’s freshwater resources

exist in groundwater, and a full 25 percent of groundwater is in cave and karst regions. Caves also serve as rich storehouses of information about natural resources,

human history, evolution, and global climate change—not to mention such current

concerns as waste disposal, petroleum recovery, and biomedical investigations.

Congress created a major impetus for America’s involvement in cave and karst

protection and management by passing the landmark Federal Cave Resources Protection Act of 1988. This Act, among other things, directed the Secretaries of the

Interior and Agriculture to inventory and list significant caves on Federal lands.

The nationwide assessment of significant federally owned caves began in 1994. This

action has added greatly to the number of known caves on Federal land, and increased the impetus for cave management and research. Federal land managers

have since developed a heightened awareness of the management needs of the cave

and karst resources on these lands and of their growing needs for assistance in

inventorying and classifying their cave and karst resources. It is also evident that

in order to succeed in this effort, the private sector as well as other public agencies

need to be part of the project. We will need to develop partnerships which will bring

funding, as well as research and program content, to the project.

The foundation for H.R. 2098 and S. 231 stem from the study prepared by the

National Park Service in response to Public Law 101-578 (November 15, 1990). In

that law, Congress directed the Secretary of the Interior, acting through the Director of the National Park Service, to establish and administer a Cave Research Program and to prepare a study that examines the feasibility of establishing a centralized National Cave and Karst Research Institute.

The NPS study was completed in December 1994. The study recommended that

the Institute be jointly administered by the National Park Service and another entity. Congress has identified the National Park Service as project lead since it manages over 60 park units containing significant cave resources. It has had a Cave and

Karst Research Program in place since March 1991, and it already has used an appropriate general cooperative research model, based on cooperative agreements. The

National Park Service would have ultimate responsibility for the Institute, and

would retain indirect control over its activities and programs. An academic entity

would plan, coordinate, and administer the Institute and its programs.

The location that the study recommended is a local community (rather than a National Park Service unit) that possesses significant cave resources, is easily accessible to researchers, students, and other visitors, is located near the academic entity

with which it is associated, and is large enough to offer a favorable quality of life

in order to attract and retain high-quality employees and their families. As specifically directed by Public Law 101-578, the study focused on locating the Institute

near the region surrounding Carlsbad Caverns National Park. The Carlsbad location

was identified by the study because of the documented strong local community and

political support, and the numerous and diverse cave and karst resources found

throughout the region.
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Cost estimates were prepared for our testimony last May. It is estimated that the

cost for the Institute during the first 5 years, if space for the Institute were donated

to the NPS, would exceed $1.2 million for operating and capital expenses alone over

the five-year period. Since New Mexico State University is considering housing the

Institute at its Carlsbad Environmental Monitoring and Research Center during the

first 5 years, it is anticipated that a permanent facility would need to be built by

the sixth year of operation. The estimated construction cost of the Institute exceeds

$1.2 million.

It is critical in times of decreasing budgets and resources that the dictates of this

legislation be accomplished jointly—between the National Park Service and a designated partner in this venture, such as the State of New Mexico, New Mexico State

University, or private entities. Technical cooperators for research projects could include organizations such as the Karst Waters Institute, the National Speleological

Society, the Cave Research Foundation, and the American Cave Conservation Association as well as state and Federal science agencies as appropriate.

All funds and efforts of the NPS must be matched at least equally and responsibility for the success of the project must be shared. We would strongly recommend

a change in bill language to emphasize this position. In ssection 4 (c) and (e) as well

as section 5 (a) we would suggest changing the Secretary ‘‘may’’ to the Secretary

‘‘shall.’’ This would reaffirm that the commitment to the project is the responsibility

of all parties, and its success depends completely on cooperative efforts. Without cooperation, existing NPS projects and programs would be jeopardized.

This concludes my prepared remarks concerning H.R. 2098, Mr. Chairman. I

would be pleased to respond to any questions you may have.

STATEMENT OF PETE CULP, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT

Thank you for the opportunity to testify on H.R. 2989, a bill which provides for

the conveyance of approximately 40 acres of public land in Las Vegas, Nevada to

the St. Judes Ranch for Children. The bill would require the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) to convey the lands to St. Judes with a reversionary clause should

the lands not be used for the purpose of residential care for adjudicated girls. The

BLM would be required not only to convey the lands but to conduct all required environmental and hazardous materials inventories and clearances within thirty days

of passage of this legislation. The BLM does not support this Bill as written.

BACKGROUND

Before discussing our comments on the bill, I would like to offer some background

information on the proposed St. Judes facility and the Recreation and Public Purposes (R&PP) Act. The R&PP Act was passed in 1926, and subsequently amended

in 1954, in order to make public lands available for campgrounds, schools, fire stations, parks, fairgrounds, and other public uses. Applicants include private non-profit organizations and governmental entities. They may apply for the least amount of

land required for the efficient operation of the project involved. The lands are used

subject to a reversionary clause where the lands revert to the United States if the

use or the entity holding the lands changes. These lands are either leased or conveyed based on a pricing structure generally as follows:

1. Lands needed for recreational uses can be conveyed to governmental entities

at no cost. These uses include parks and other recreational facilities.

2. Lands needed for governmental purposes to serve the general public for other

than recreation can be conveyed at $10 per acre or leased at $2 per acre per

year. These include education, fire, police, public health, courthouses and other

similar State, county and community facilities.

3. Lands needed by non-profit organizations for any unrestricted use or by governmental entities for uses other than those described above are leased or conveyed at 50 percent of market value. These uses include cemeteries, museums,

fairgrounds and for government entities, any other facilities that are publicly

supported but not essential to government administration.

4. If use is restricted on any of the lands described above, the lease or conveyance is based on 90 percent of market value. Such restrictions would include

uses limited to a certain group of people or membership. An example would be

a cemetery open only to members of a certain church.

I describe the R&PP Act to you because the use described in H.R. 2989 is typical

of those authorized under this authority. In fact, St. Judes has an R&PP lease to

develop public lands for the purposes described in H.R. 2989. On November 11,

1994, St. Judes was issued an R&PP lease for 40-acres, north of the Las Vegas metropolitan area, abutting U.S. Highway 95, for the purpose of constructing the Home
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of the Good Shepherd. The facility was to shelter and educate troubled adolescent

girls that have been made wards of the State of Nevada. St. Judes has paid one

year of rental fees. No rental fee was paid for 1997. The BLM suspended lease payment while determining the Beltway alignment. The Beltway is a major highway

project needed to move traffic around the city center. Alignment no longer affects

the lease site; however, the rental payment remains in arrears. The Fair Market

Value, after a 50 percent reduction in accordance with the R&PP pricing structure,

results in an annual lease rental of $54,000. St. Judes feels that it cannot afford

this lease payment along with the development costs.

In an effort to contain development costs, St. Judes looked for a site closer to utilities. It has found another site on public lands that will meet its needs; however,

the public lands closer to utilities are more costly than the original lease site. The

lands it is interested in are the lands contained in H.R. 2989. St. Judes has submitted a relinquishment of its existing R&PP lease and requested that payment of

the back rental be waived.

GENERAL COMMENTS

Passage of H.R. 2989 would set an unwise precedent for ‘‘no cost’’ conveyance of

land in the Las Vegas Valley. The R&PP authority has been used by the BLM to

provide lands at a reduced price to governmental and non-profit entities for 72

years. In the Las Vegas area, BLM has used this authority successfully by issuing

78 leases and 79 patents. The Las Vegas Field Office currently has approximately

195 R&PP applications pending, approximately 30 of those from other non-profit

groups for a variety of similar properties and similar land uses. These new proposals are from groups, such as the Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, animal shelters, and

churches. Those groups with current leases and conveyances, along with these individuals with R&PP applications pending, could as readily claim a similar financial

hardship as St. Judes has done. For these reasons the Administration does not support the bill. We recommend processing this transaction subject to the administrative processes that all other non-profit entities have had to follow, and will have to

follow in developing qualifying R&PP facilities in the future.

SPECIFIC COMMENTS

Although we do not support this legislation, there are several recommended

changes that would be needed if the legislation is enacted. This legislation would

require the conveyance of 40 acres of public lands, which seems excessive to accommodate facilities to care for 102 children. We would recommend that a smaller

amount of land be identified for this purpose even if a cadastral land survey is required. A cadastral survey is required to further divide this property. With the high

value of these lands (this 40 acres is likely to be worth $1 million), it is in the public

interest to convey the least amount of land needed and to pay the cost of the survey.

The bill intermingles the terms, ‘‘children’’ and ‘‘adjudicated girls.’’ With a reversionary clause that allows for use only by adjudicated girls, there may be a risk of

violation of the reversionary clause if boys are ever allowed to use the facility. Perhaps the best way to resolve this conflict is to change terminology throughout the

bill to either reference ‘‘children’’ or ‘‘adjudicated girls,’’ not both.

Section 2. (a) would require the Secretary to complete the environmental studies

identified in subsection (c) and offer to convey title within 30 days after a request

by St. Judes. The process cannot be completed in 30 days. The BLM needs at least

90 days to process this title conveyance.

Section 2. (c) would require environmental studies which include a survey for the

presence of hazardous materials to determine if the facility for adjudicated girls is

a compatible use of the land described in subsection (b). The bill requires conveyance within 30 days of passage, but does not instruct BLM what to do if the lands

were found incompatible with this use. There is a built-in conflict in the bill. Consideration should be given to allowing full analysis of the lands within a reasonable

time frame and the opportunity for the Department to refuse if the use is inappropriate.

Section 2. (d) provides for a reversionary interest to be retained by the United

States. This section is vague. We suggest that a development or management plan

be submitted so that BLM knows the intended use of the property. It is difficult

to divest property without a defined development or management plan. Additionally,

we recommend the reverser clause used for conveyances pursuant to the R&PP Act

or some limitation on future development be included in the legislation.

CONCLUSION

It appears that the motivation for this bill is to create a mechanism by which St.

Judes can quickly secure public lands, at no cost, for use as a children’s/adjudicated

girl’s facility. Because there are hundreds of other past and present non-profit
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groups in the same situation, this legislation seems to offer a template for all other

groups to follow or to feel excludedfrom. The fair approach is to process this action

using current authorities (the R&PP Act) which involves no legislation. We would

certainly be willing to work with the Subcommittee to explore other options that

might meet the needs of St. Judes.

This concludes my statement. I will be glad to answer any questions you may

have.
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