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96–052 PDF 2015

PLANNED PARENTHOOD EXPOSED: EXAMINING 

THE HORRIFIC ABORTION PRACTICES AT 

THE NATION’S LARGEST ABORTION PROVIDER 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

SEPTEMBER 9, 2015 

Serial No. 114–41 

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov 
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia, Chairman 

F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., 

Wisconsin 

LAMAR S. SMITH, Texas 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio 

DARRELL E. ISSA, California 

J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

TRENT FRANKS, Arizona 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

JIM JORDAN, Ohio 

TED POE, Texas 

JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah 

TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania 

TREY GOWDY, South Carolina 

RAU ́ L LABRADOR, Idaho 

BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas 

DOUG COLLINS, Georgia 

RON DeSANTIS, Florida 

MIMI WALTERS, California 

KEN BUCK, Colorado 

JOHN RATCLIFFE, Texas 

DAVE TROTT, Michigan 

MIKE BISHOP, Michigan 

JOHN CONYERS, JR., Michigan 

JERROLD NADLER, New York 

ZOE LOFGREN, California 

SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas 

STEVE COHEN, Tennessee 

HENRY C. ‘‘HANK’’ JOHNSON, JR., 

Georgia 

PEDRO R. PIERLUISI, Puerto Rico 

JUDY CHU, California 

TED DEUTCH, Florida 

LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois 

KAREN BASS, California 

CEDRIC RICHMOND, Louisiana 

SUZAN DelBENE, Washington 

HAKEEM JEFFRIES, New York 

DAVID N. CICILLINE, Rhode Island 

SCOTT PETERS, California 

SHELLEY HUSBAND, Chief of Staff & General Counsel 

PERRY APELBAUM, Minority Staff Director & Chief Counsel 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

SEPTEMBER 9, 2015 

Page 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

The Honorable Bob Goodlatte, a Representative in Congress from the State 

of Virginia, and Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary ................................. 1 

The Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the 

State of Michigan, and Ranking Member, Committee on the Judiciary ......... 3 

The Honorable Trent Franks, a Representative in Congress from the State 

of Arizona, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary ..................................... 4 

The Honorable Steve Cohen, a Representative in Congress from the State 

of Tennessee, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary ................................. 6 

WITNESSES 

Gianna Jessen, Abortion Survivor and Pro-Life Advocate and Speaker, Franklin, TN 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 13 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 15 

James Bopp, Jr., General Counsel, National Right to Life, Washington, DC 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 21 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 23 

Priscilla J. Smith, Associate Research Scholar in Law, Senior Fellow and 

Director, Program for the Study of Reproductive Justice, Information Society Project, Yale Law School, New Haven, CT 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 44 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 46 

Melissa Ohden, Abortion Survivor, and Founder, Abortion Survivors Network, 

Gladstone, MO 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 58 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 60 

LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING 

Material submitted by the Honorable Steve Cohen, a Representative in Congress from the State of Tennessee, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary ......................................................................................................................... 8 

Material submitted by the Honorable Bob Goodlatte, a Representative in 

Congress from the State of Virginia, and Chairman, Committee on the 

Judiciary ............................................................................................................... 67 

Material submitted by the Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative 

in Congress from the State of Michigan, and Ranking Member, Committee 

on the Judiciary ................................................................................................... 83 

Material submitted by the Honorable Jerrold Nadler, a Representative in 

Congress from the State of New York, and Member, Committee on the 

Judiciary ............................................................................................................... 101 

Material submitted by the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, a Representative 

in Congress from the State of Texas, and Member, Committee on the 

Judiciary ............................................................................................................... 110 

Material submitted by the Honorable Judy Chu, a Representative in Congress 

from the State of California, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary ........ 162 
Page

IV 

Material submitted by the Honorable Suzan DelBene, a Representative in 

Congress from the State of Washington, and Member, Committee on the 

Judiciary ............................................................................................................... 184 

Material submitted by the Honorable Zoe Lofgren, a Representative in Congress from the State of California, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary ......................................................................................................................... 192 

Prepared Statement of the Honorable Doug Collins, a Representative in Congress from the State of Georgia, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary .. 203 

Additional Material submitted by the Honorable Zoe Lofgren, a Representative in Congress from the State of California, and Member, Committee 

on the Judiciary ................................................................................................... 209 

APPENDIX 

MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING RECORD

Material submitted by the Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative 

in Congress from the State of Michigan, and Ranking Member, Committee 

on the Judiciary ................................................................................................... 212 

Material submitted by the Honorable Bruce Poliquin, a Representative in 

Congress from the State of Maine ...................................................................... 216 

OFFICIAL HEARING RECORD 

UNPRINTED MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING RECORD

Material submitted by the Honorable Mike Bishop, a Representative in Congress from the State of Michigan, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary 

(see Rep. Mike Bishop Submissions at link below) ............................................ 190 

http://docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent.aspx?EventID=103920 
(1) 

PLANNED PARENTHOOD EXPOSED: EXAMINING THE HORRIFIC ABORTION PRACTICES AT THE NATION’S LARGEST ABORTION PROVIDER 

WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 2015 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:39 a.m., in room 

2141, Rayburn Office Building, the Honorable Bob Goodlatte 

(Chairman of the Committee) presiding. 

Present: Representatives Goodlatte, Sensenbrenner, Chabot, Issa, 

Forbes, King, Franks, Gohmert, Jordan, Poe, Gowdy, Labrador, 

Farenthold, Collins, DeSantis, Walters, Buck, Ratcliffe, Trott, 

Bishop, Conyers, Nadler, Lofgren, Jackson Lee, Cohen, Johnson, 

Chu, Deutch, Gutierrez, DelBene, Cicilline, and Peters. 

Staff present: (Majority) Shelley Husband, Chief of Staff & General Counsel; Branden Ritchie, Depuyt Chief of Staff & Chief Counsel; Allison Halataei, Parliamentarian & General Counsel; Paul 

Taylor, Chief Counsel, Subcommittee on the Constitution and Civil 

Justice; John Coleman, Counsel, Subcommittee on the Constitution 

and Civil Justice; Kelsey Williams, Clerk; (Minority) Perry Apelbaum, Staff Director & Chief Counsel; Danielle Brown, Parliamentarian and Chief Legislative Counsel; James Park, Chief Counsel, 

Subcommittee on the Constitution and Civil Justice; and Veronica 

Eligan, Professional Staff Member. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Good morning. The Judiciary Committee will 

come to order, and without objection the Chair is authorized to declare recesses of the Committee at any time. 

We welcome everyone to this morning’s hearing on Planned Parenthood Exposed: Examining the Horrific Abortion Practices at the 

Nation’s Largest Abortion Provider. And I will begin by recognizing 

myself for an opening statement. 

Recently the Nation’s attention has been drawn to a series of undercover videos recorded by members of a group called The Center 

for Medical Progress. These videos contained discussions with representatives of the abortion providing organization, Planned Parenthood, regarding the exchange of money for the body parts of unborn children to be used in research. 

Any discussion of abortion is inherently difficult as it is unquestionably the taking of a human life. That discussion becomes even 
2 

more difficult when it turns to the monetary value of the body 

parts of more developed unborn children, and to the prospect of exposing them to potentially more painful abortions conducted in different ways without the mother’s consent to preserve the added 

value of their more fully developed body parts. Yet these videos 

force us all to engage in that discussion, one that this Committee 

has been engaged in for some time now, and which now begins its 

phase of public hearings. 

There are questions regarding whether there are gaps in the law 

that should be filled to prevent the types of horrors described in 

the videos. There are questions regarding whether or not existing 

Federal laws have been violated. The Committee is aggressively 

seeking answers to these questions, but there is no question that 

the videos are deeply disturbing at a human level. 

The director of New York University’s Division of Medical Ethics 

said in response to the videos that it is ethically very dangerous 

to change an abortion procedure for the purpose of collecting the 

organs of unborn children because then, ‘‘you’re starting to put the 

mom’s health secondary.’’ 

One of the unborn baby tissue procurement companies caught on 

tape has already claimed to have severed its business relationship 

with Planned Parenthood. The head of Planned Parenthood herself 

has referred to what her own senior director of medical services 

said on the videos as unacceptable, and personally apologized for 

it. And during a sit-down interview on the New Hampshire Union 

Leader, Democratic presidential candidate, Hillary Clinton, said of 

the undercover videos, ‘‘I have seen pictures of them and obviously 

find them disturbing.’’ When the leading Democratic candidate for 

President says she finds the videos obviously disturbing, I think we 

can safely put to rest any allegations that the investigation of these 

acts is inappropriate. 

Some Members have questioned why our investigation is focused 

on the conduct of Planned Parenthood and not on the conduct of 

those who obtained the undercover footage. Part of the answer is 

that Planned Parenthood, unlike the undercover reporters, is 

granted huge amounts of Federal funds, making it our business as 

Members of Congress, charged with controlling Federal purse 

strings, to do what we can to ensure Federal taxpayer dollars are 

not contributing to the sorts of horrors reflected in the undercover 

videos. 

The conduct exposed by the undercover videos may help inform 

Congress on how to enact better laws, or to see to it that current 

laws are better enforced to help protect innocent life nationwide. To 

that end, the House has already passed The Pain Capable Unborn 

Child Protection Act, which would prohibit abortion with certain 

limited exceptions when women are entering the 6th month of 

pregnancy. 

Today, America is one of only seven countries on earth, including 

North Korea and China, that allow elective abortion after 20 weeks 

post-fertilization, and an overwhelming majority of just about every 

demographic group opposes its continued practice here. The Senate 

should pass that bill immediately, and the President should sign it, 

and in doing so help ensure that the body parts of late aborted ba-
3 

bies cannot be sold because late-term abortions would be generally 

prohibited. 

In the meantime, the House Judiciary Committee today continues to examine additional ways of protecting human life and 

preserving the conscience of America. Today’s hearing is the first 

part of a two-part hearing on this topic. I hope that this hearing 

helps to shed light on some of the Nation’s darkest corners so the 

atrocities that some would very much like to dehumanize can be 

exposed for what they really are. 

I look forward to hearing from our witnesses here today, and it 

is now my pleasure to recognize the Ranking Member of the Judiciary Committee, the gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Conyers, for his 

opening statement. 

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And to the 

Members of the Judiciary Committee and our friends that are here 

in the hearing room, as this one-sided hearing title suggests, and 

by the way I have a file on these unusual titles that come up from 

time to time, we will likely hear a series of allegations leveled 

against Planned Parenthood, one of the most popular organizations 

for almost 100 years, that it engaged in unlawful conduct based 

solely on a series of deceptively edited undercover videos. 

Notably, the Center for Medical Progress, the entity that filmed 

these videos and which could answer significant and troubling 

questions of about their accuracy and veracity, is not here today. 

In addition, the majority chose not to invite Planned Parenthood, 

the target of today’s attacks. 

As we hear from our witnesses, we should keep in mind the following points. To begin with, there is no credible evidence that 

Planned Parenthood violated the law. The videos wrongly implied 

that Planned Parenthood sells fetal tissue and organs for profit. 

That is not the case. The law governing fetal tissue research, which 

passed with overwhelming bipartisan support back in 1993, provides in part that no one can ‘‘knowingly acquire, receive, or otherwise transfer any human fetal tissue for valuable consideration.’’ In 

short, for-profit sales, and purchases of fetal tissue are illegal. 

Similarly, Federal law prohibits for-profit sales and purchases of 

human organs. In both cases, however, valuable consideration does 

not include reasonable payments to cover certain costs associated 

with either fetal tissue or organ donations. 

The Center for Medical Progress’ doctored videos do not support 

the allegation that Planned Parenthood sought profit from fetal tissue or organ donations. Rather, they show, among other things, 

discussions over payments for costs associated with fetal tissue or 

organ donation payments that the law clearly allows. 

The videos also wrongly suggest that doctors at Planned Parenthood violated the law by altering the procedures used to perform 

abortion so as to preserve fetal tissue or organs. There is no evidence that Planned Parenthood has altered methods. Moreover, the 

statutory prohibition on changing the timing, method, or procedures of an abortion to preserve fetal tissues applies only to certain 

federally-funded research, and such research has not been funded 

since 2007. In other words, the legal prohibition did not apply to 

Planned Parenthood at the time the Center’s undercover videos 

were filmed. 
4 

Finally, no evidence supports the suggestion that Planned Parenthood doctors may have violated the Partial Birth Abortion Ban 

Act. The fact that Planned Parenthood officials refer to intact 

fetuses and tissue specimens in many of the videos is immaterial. 

To violate the act, the physicians must partially deliver a living 

fetus and have the intent to terminate that fetus after its partial 

delivery. None of the videos shows any Planned Parenthood official 

engaging in or suggesting the use of such a procedure. In short, no 

reliable evidence demonstrates that Planned Parenthood violated 

Federal law. 

What is troubling about the videos is the manner in which they 

were produced. The Center for Medical Progress created a false tissue procurement company to use as a front in order to infiltrate 

Planned Parenthood facilities and to create the undercover videos, 

and may have deceived any number of State and Federal authorities to do so. Additionally, the Center heavily edited the videos to 

present a misleading picture of the surreptitiously recorded conversations in order to suggest illegal conduct by Planned Parenthood and to maximize the videos’ shock value. 

A forensic analysis submitted to Congress has concluded that a 

thorough review of these videos in consultation with qualified experts found that they do not represent a complete or accurate 

record of the events they purport to depict. And even the alleged 

full footage released by the Center includes, and I quote, ‘‘cuts, 

skips, missing tape, and changes in camera angle,’’ as well more 

than 30 minutes of missing video, and took out of context so as to 

substantively and significantly alter the meaning of the dialogue. 

Finally, we must step back and look at the context in which this 

hearing itself is being held. The real purpose of the videos is to undermine one of the Nation’s leading providers of high-quality 

healthcare for women. Planned Parenthood serves 2.7 million 

Americans a year, and 1 in 3 women have used Planned Parenthood services by the age of 45. The organization is nearly 100 years 

old, and some abortion opponents are attempting to use these videos as a pretext to end Federal funding for Planned Parenthood. If 

successful, this effort would hurt those who rely on Planned Parenthood’s services, and doing so would not prevent abortions. 

It is already the case that no Federal funds may be used to pay 

for abortions with certain limited exceptions. Instead, Federal 

funding pays for Planned Parenthood’s many critical health services, such as annual wellness exams, cancer screenings, contraception, and to further the study of sexually transmitted diseases. 

Surely we in the Congress have better things to do than to spend 

our time helping to undermine an organization that provides such 

vital health services. 

And I thank you, Chairman Goodlatte. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. The Chair now recognizes the Chairman of the 

Constitution and Civil Justice Subcommittee, Mr. Franks of Arizona, for his opening statement. 

Mr. FRANKS. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the 

United States of America is a unique Nation that is premised on 

the foundation that all of us in the human family were created 

equal, and that each of us is endowed by our Creator with this inalienable right to live. Yet this Committee is convened here today 
5 

in a hearing titled, ‘‘Planned Parenthood Exposed: Examining the 

Horrific Abortion Practices at the Nation’s Largest Abortion Provider,’’ because numerous video recordings have been recently released that incontrovertibly document corporate officers and employees of Planned Parenthood casually discussing their rampant 

practice of harvesting and selling the little body parts from many 

of the hundreds of thousands of innocent babies they are guilty of 

killing in their abortion clinics across this Nation every year. 

These video recording irrefutably reveal officers of Planned Parenthood haggling over the price of these little organs and body 

parts, and casually describing ways of killing these little babies, 

often using much more painful methods, like partial birth abortion, 

to make sure the sellable organs of these babies remains 

undamaged. 

One of these videos describes an incident where one of Planned 

Parenthood’s employees calls one of the younger employees over to 

witness something that was ‘‘kind of cool,’’ that one of the babies’ 

hearts was still beating. The older employee then said, ‘‘Okay, this 

is a really good fetus, and it looks like we can procure a lot from 

it. We’re going to procure a brain.’’ And then using scissors, together the two employees, starting at the baby’s chin, cut upward 

through the center of this child’s face and pulled out the baby’s little brain, and placed it in a container where it could later be sold. 

Mr. Chairman, I find it so crushingly sad that the only time this 

little baby was ever held by anyone in its short life was by those 

who cut his face open and took his brain. Have we forgotten that 

it was not so long ago that authorities entered the clinic of Dr. 

Kermit Gosnell? They found a torture chamber for little babies that 

really defies description within the constraints of the English language. 

The grand jury report at the time said, ‘‘Dr. Kermit Gosnell had 

a simple solution for unwanted babies: he killed them. He didn’t 

call it that. He called it ’ensuring fetal demise.’ The way he insured 

fetal demise was by sticking scissors in the back of the baby’s neck 

and cutting the spinal cord. He called it ’snipping.’ Over the years, 

there were hundreds of snippings.’’ 

Ashley Baldwin, one of Dr. Gosnell’s employees, said she saw babies breathing, and she described one as 2 feet long that no longer 

had eyes or a mouth, but in her words was ‘‘making this screeching 

noise, and it sounded like a little alien.’’ And yet the President of 

the United States of America and many Members of Congress have 

not uttered one single syllable against these gut-wrenching atrocities of Kermit Gosnell or Planned Parenthood. For God’s sake, is 

this who we truly are? 

The fact is, Mr. Chairman, that more than 18,000 late-term pain 

capable unborn babies were torturously killed without anesthesia 

in America in just the last year. Many of them cried and screamed 

as they died, but because it was amniotic fluid going over the vocal 

cords instead of air, we could not hear them. It is the worst human 

rights atrocity in the history of the United States of America. 

Now, I know that many of you on this Committee will hold to the 

standard line and try to cloak all of this in the name of freedom 

of choice. But I beg you to open your own hearts and ask your-
6 

selves what is so liberating about brutally and painfully dismembering living helpless little human babies? 

In spite of all the political noise, protecting these little babies 

and their mothers is not a Republican issue, and it is not a Democrat issue. It is a basic test of our humanity and who we are as 

a human family. 

Mr. Chairman, the sands of time should blow over this Capitol 

dome before we ever give Planned Parenthood another dime of taxpayer money. And in the name of humanity, Democrat senators 

should end their filibuster against the Pain-Capable Unborn Child 

Protection Act in the U.S. Senate, because passing it would prevent 

the vast majority of these evil acts by Planned Parenthood these 

videos have now so clearly shown to the entire world. 

And with that, I yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. The Chair thanks the gentleman, and now recognizes the Ranking Member of the Constitution and Civil Justice 

Subcommittee, the gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Cohen, for his 

opening statement. 

Mr. COHEN. Thank you, Mr. Goodlatte. First, I want to say that 

this is one of the issues that divides this country and has for 40- 

some-odd years. It divides this Committee. I respect my Republican 

colleagues, Mr. Franks in particular, who have a strong-held position. But it is not my position, and it is not the position of most 

of the women in this country, and that is the position that women 

should have a right to choose. 

Roe v. Wade, a United States Supreme Court decision in the 

early 70’s, made that point clear, and it is has been the law of the 

land for many years. This hearing is not about the videos. In fact, 

the videos have been doctored, and the videos are not what they 

are supposed to be, and it is show business. This hearing is about 

a woman’s right to choose, and many people who for their honest 

beliefs feel should be a litmus test of a politician’s life and support 

for ‘‘life’’ and human beings. They want to outlaw abortion, and 

they will not be happy until abortion is outlawed in the United 

States of America. That is what this hearing is about. 

And if you will notice, the testimony has been about abortion, 

and that issue is raised again. Planned Parenthood is simply a 

group where 3 percent of its work is abortion. Ninety-seven percent 

of its work is about health for poor women, healthcare, screenings. 

And 2.7 million women a year get that healthcare. That is so important. My district is a poor district, and a lot of women in my 

district get their healthcare, primary female healthcare, from 

Planned Parenthood. And to cut off Federal funding would deny 

them that healthcare. 

I know that will not make a big difference to many on the other 

side for none on the other side voted for the Affordable Care Act, 

even though it is a growth out of two of the great Presidents of the 

Republican side, Teddy Roosevelt and Richard Nixon, both of whom 

espoused it. But not a one voted for the Affordable Care Act. The 

Affordable Care Act helps women get healthcare, but because some 

on the extreme side, particularly in the South in legislatures and 

governors, have not expanded Medicaid to many women who need 

healthcare, which they can do at no cost and at great fiscal as well 
7 

as fiscal benefit to their States, have denied healthcare to women. 

This would further deny healthcare to women. 

Planned Parenthood cannot use, because of law that has been on 

the books since the 70’s, any Federal funds for abortion. That is 

outlawed, unless it is the life of the mother, incest exceptions. 

Rape, incest, life of the mother. With the exception of those three 

exceptions, you cannot use Federal funds for abortion anyway. 

So we are talking about annullity. This is the government takeover of healthcare, the death panel in healthcare, the Benghazi of 

healthcare hearing. It is a way to get attention to an issue that 

these people want to highlight. I do not doubt their sincerity in 

wanting to highlight it, but it is just wrong in 2015. We should be 

going forward and not backwards in this country, and to a lot of 

people who say we want to take back our country, what they say 

is they want the country of Dwight Eisenhower, a fine many who 

operated at a time before civil rights, before women’s rights, before 

gay rights, before people had opportunities independent of physical 

characteristics or sexual orientation. 

America has moved forward, and it is not going to go backwards. 

It is a new America, and you are not going to get that America 

back. I loved Ricky Nelson and Ozzie, but they are history. It is 

gone. It is a new America. And this hearing is about eliminating 

and overruling Roe v. Wade. It is about partial birth abortion. It 

is about abortion, period. 

There are 143, I believe it is, labor civil rights and civil liberties 

groups that say that this hearing should not necessarily be held, 

and they oppose these efforts to defund Planned Parenthood. And 

I would like to enter into the record a list of these groups, if that 

is okay, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Without objection, they will be made a part of 

the record. 

[The information referred to follows:] 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 

Mr. COHEN. Great. I value the Republicans’ opinions. They are 

strong felt, and I understand that, and there is a big difference in 

this country. But for me, Planned Parenthood is part of my DNA. 

It is one of the finest organizations in this country. It helps women, 

women of color, poor women, and it gives them choice as the Supreme Court gave them choice. It is about upholding the law of the 

land. 

A lot of people here would not want the law of the land to be 

held up in that county in Kentucky where some woman refused to 

do what the Supreme Court told her, and they made her a hero. 

I say fund Planned Parenthood. It does not deliver abortions with 

Federal funds. This hearing is about abortion, and I support Roe 

v. Wade. And I yield back the balance of my time. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Without objection, all other Members’ opening 

statements will be made a part of the record. 

We welcome our distinguished witnesses today, and if you would 

all please rise, I will begin by swearing you in. 

Do you and each of you solemnly swear that that testimony that 

you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

[A chorus of ayes.] 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Thank you. You may all be seated, and let the 

record reflect that the witnesses responded in the affirmative. 

Ms. Gianna Jessen survived a failed abortion when she was a 

baby. A pro-life advocate and speaker, Ms. Jessen currently lives 

in Franklin, Tennessee. 

Mr. James Bopp, Jr. has served as National Right to Life’s general counsel since 1978. In 1987, Mr. Bopp was appointed by the 

U.S. Congress to the Biomedical Ethics Advisory Committee, which 

advises Congress on the ethical issues arising from delivery of 

healthcare and from biomedical and behavioral research. 

In 1988, Mr. Bopp served on the Human Fetal Tissue Transplantation Research Panel for the National Institutes of Health. Mr. 

Bopp has testified before numerous Federal and State legislative 

committees, hearings on pro-life issues, and has argued before the 

United States Supreme Court. 

Ms. Priscilla J. Smith is director of the Program for the Study 

of Reproductive Justice at the Information Society Project at the 

Yale Law School. Prior to joining the ISP, Smith was an attorney 

with the Center for Reproductive Rights for 13 years serving as the 

U.S. legal program director from 2003 to 2007, and litigated cases 

nationwide. She conducts research and writes on privacy, reproductive rights and justice, and the information society. 

Ms. Melissa Ohden also survived an abortion as a baby. She is 

the founder of the Abortion Survivors Network. 

All of your written statements will be entered into the record in 

their entirety. I ask that each of you summarize your testimony in 

5 minutes or less, and to help you stay within that time, there is 

a timing light on your table. When the light switches from green 

to yellow, you have 1 minute to conclude your testimony. When the 

light turns red, it signals that your 5 minutes have expired. 

Ms. Jessen, welcome, and we are pleased to start with you. You 

want to push that button at the bottom and make sure it is on. 
13 

TESTIMONY OF GIANNA JESSEN, ABORTION SURVIVOR AND 

PRO-LIFE ADVOCATE AND SPEAKER, FRANKLIN, TN 

Ms. JESSEN. Is it on? 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Yes. 

Ms. JESSEN. Sorry. Good morning. My name is Gianna Jessen, 

and I would like to thank you so much for the opportunity to testify 

here today. My biological mother was 7-and-a-half months pregnant when she went to a Planned Parenthood and they advised her 

to have a late-term saline abortion. 

This method of abortion burns the baby inside and out, blinding 

and suffocating the child, who is then born dead usually within 24 

hours. And there should be a photo there. Yes. This is what I survived. 

Instead of dying, after 18 hours of being burned in my mother’s 

womb, I was delivered alive in an abortion clinic in Los Angeles on 

April the 6th, 1977. You can see a photo as well of my medical 

records. My medical records state, ‘‘born alive during saline abortion, 6 a.m.’’ Victory. Thankfully the abortionist was not at work 

yet. Had he been there, he would have ended my life with strangulation, suffocation, or leaving me there to die. Instead, a nurse 

called an ambulance, and I was rushed to a hospital. Doctors did 

not expect me to live. I did. 

I was later diagnosed with cerebral palsy which was caused by 

a lack of oxygen to my brain while surviving an abortion. I was 

never supposed to hold up my head or walk. I do. And cerebral 

palsy, ladies and gentlemen, is a tremendous gift to me. 

I was eventually placed in foster care and later adopted, and 

hear me clearly. I forgive my biological mother. Within the first 

year after my birth, I was used as an expert witness in a case 

where an abortionist had been caught strangling a child to death 

after being born alive. 

Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, said the 

following: ‘‘The most merciful thing that a large family does to one 

of its infant members is to kill it.’’ Planned Parenthood is not 

ashamed of what they have done or continues to do, but we will 

have to give an account as a Nation before God for our apathy and 

for the murder of over 50 million children in the womb. 

Every time we falter in courage as individuals and fail to confront this evil, I wonder how many lives have been lost in our silence while we make sure we are lauded among men and that we 

do not offend anyone. How many children have died and been dismembered and their parts sold for our ego, our convenience, and 

our promiscuity? How many Lamborghinis were purchased with 

the blood innocent children, the blood that cries to the Lord from 

the ground like that of the blood of Abel? Not one of them, ladies 

and gentlemen, is forgotten by Him. 

I would ask Planned Parenthood the following questions 38 years 

later. I would ask them these questions. If abortion is about women’s rights, then what were mine? You continuously use the argument if the baby is disabled we need to terminate the pregnancy 

as if you can determine the quality of someone’s life. Is my life less 

valuable due to my cerebral palsy? You have failed in your arrogance and greed to see one thing. It is often from the weakest 

among us that we learn wisdom, something sorely lacking in our 
14 

Nation today, and it is both our folly and our shame that blinds 

us to the beauty of adversity. 

Planned Parenthood uses deception, the manipulation of language, and slogans, such as ‘‘a woman’s right to choose,’’ to achieve 

their monetary aims. I will illustrate how well they employ this 

technique with the following quote: ‘‘The receptivity of the masses 

is very limited. Their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous. In consequence of these facts, all effective 

propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp 

on these slogans until the last member of the public understands 

what you want him to understand by your slogan.’’ Adolf Hitler. 

We often hear that if Planned Parenthood were to be defunded 

there would be a health crisis among women without the services 

they provide. This is absolutely false. Pregnancy resource centers 

are located nationwide as an option for the woman in crisis. All of 

their services are free and confidential. They can be reached by 

texting helpline to 313131. There is access to vital exams for 

women other than Planned Parenthood. We are not a Nation without options. 

Planned Parenthood receives $500 million of taxpayer money a 

year to primarily destroy and dismember babies. Do not tell me 

these are not children. A heartbeat proves that, so does 40 

ultrasounds. So do I, and so does the fact that they are selling 

human organs for profit. Do not tell me this is only a woman’s 

issue. It takes both a man and a woman to create a child. 

And to that point I wish to speak to the men listening to me. You 

are made for greatness. You were born to defend women and children, not to use and abandon us, nor sit idly by while you know 

we are being harmed. And I am asking you to be brave. 

In conclusion, let me say I am alive because of the power of 

Jesus Christ alone, in Whom I live, move, and have my being. 

Without Him, I would have nothing, and with Him I have all. 

Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Jessen follows:] 
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Mr. GOODLATTE. Thank you, Ms. Jessen, for that compelling testimony. 

Mr. Bopp, welcome. 

TESTIMONY OF JAMES BOPP, JR., GENERAL COUNSEL, 

NATIONAL RIGHT TO LIFE, WASHINGTON, DC 

Mr. BOPP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak. I have substantial familiarity with this subject, 

and Mr. Chairman mentioned my participation in the Fetal Tissue 

Transplant Research Panel impaneled by NIH on the question of 

whether or not fetal tissue transplantation research should be 

funded. 

The panel recommended that the moratorium that the Bush Administration had issued be lifted. Four of us dissented, and Father 

James Burtchaell and I published a lengthy dissent. Based upon 

some of the arguments in that dissent, the Bush Administration 

continued the moratorium on funding such research. 

Based on the information that has come to light through the investigative reporting of CMP, it is apparent that Planned Parenthood fetal tissue procurement practices violate Federal and State 

laws when applicable, ethical and moral principles, and their own 

guidelines and promises to their patients. There are reasons why 

this happens, and it is, frankly, inevitable. 

First, Planned Parenthood believes that the unborn has no 

human rights and can be killed at will at any time during pregnancy with the consent of the mother. History tells us that as soon 

as you strip human beings of all legal rights, people will be treated 

as commodities, and abuse is inevitable. 

Second, Planned Parenthood receives substantial financial incentives for harvesting fetal tissue, and their love of money supersedes 

all other consideration. In the CMP videos, there are reported 

incidences of babies born intact and potentially alive after an induced abortion because he or she had a heartbeat. And the fetal 

brain was removed by taking scissors and cutting the face open to 

extract the brain. This barbaric practice, if true, and if the child 

were, in fact, alive, rivals any of the documented abuses of human 

persons in medical research throughout history. 

But it goes beyond any individual instance. Planned Parenthood’s 

lust for money from fetal tissue procurement, in some instances 

equal or even exceed the cost they charge for the abortion itself, 

has apparently caused Planned Parenthood to change all relevant 

aspects of the abortion procedure itself. 

As a Planned Parenthood abortion physician explained, she 

would meet with tissue procurement people before the day’s schedule of abortions and find out what tissue they wanted, and then 

she would target those particular abortions which might yield the 

fetal tissue that researchers wanted to purchase. In so doing, she 

made clear that she would change the abortion procedure to obtain 

the fetal tissue intact by only crushing those parts of the fetal body 

that contained tissue not being sought, or by trying to extract the 

baby feet first to encourage an intact delivery. 

So the abortionist starts her day with a shopping list and spends 

the rest of the day trying to fill that list with fetal tissue. In other 

words, she said, ‘‘If I know what they’re looking for, I’ll just keep 
22 

it in the back of my mind, and try to at least keep that part intact.’’ 

So rather than being on a search and destroy mission for the mother, the Planned Parenthood abortionist is now on a search and harvest mission for their own profit. 

These practices potentially violate several Federal and State 

laws when applicable, various moral and ethical principles, and 

even Planned Parenthood’s own guidelines. First, Federal and 

State law prohibits valuable consideration which has been mentioned. However, there is a gaping loophole which is allowing reasonable payments for the procurement costs that are associated 

with harvesting fetal tissue. However, even with this broad exception, the evidence now is clear that Planned Parenthood, even if 

they are complying with it, that it creates sufficient financial incentives for substantial abuse to occur. But the evidence also demonstrates that they go even beyond this broad exception to negotiate a per specimen market price with no regard to the associated 

cost. 

Planned Parenthood also readily changes the abortion procedure 

to gain more fetal tissue to sell, which would certainly violate Federal law for funding of fetal tissue transplantation research, which 

admittedly has not occurred since 2007. But it certainly violates 

the promise Planned Parenthood made to their patients not to 

change the abortion procedure, and the Planned Parenthood president has admitted to Congress this is exactly what they do. And 

Planned Parenthood may not even get consent to obtain the donations as required by many Federal and State laws, and there is evidence that technicians simply grab whatever tissue is available regardless of consent. 

But finally, there is substantial evidence that children are born 

intact and alive, and they are killed for their tissue. Federal law 

prohibits through the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act and the Born 

Alive Infant Protection Act killing live-born infants after an induced abortion either during delivery or after delivery. This law 

passed in 2000 has an important, but limited, purpose, and that is 

a child born alive after an induced abortion has the same legal 

rights as the rest of us. It is not dependent upon the desires of the 

mother. There is no right to a dead baby as a result of the abortion. 

And finally that it is not viability, but being born alive, which is 

a critical legal point. 

There is now, however, sufficient evidence both from CMP and 

otherwise that abortionists are not taking these legal protections 

seriously, and general criminal law is just too blunt an instrument 

to provide sufficient legal protection for live-born infants when 

abortion clinics have financial incentives to encourage delivery of 

intact and potentially live-born infants, who they could then kill to 

harvest their fetal tissue. 

This law needs to be updated to ensure that live-born infants are 

not killed, but that they also receive appropriate care just like everyone else. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Bopp follows:] 
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Mr. GOODLATTE. Thank you, Mr. Bopp. 

Ms. Smith, welcome. 

TESTIMONY OF PRISCILLA J. SMITH, ASSOCIATE RESEARCH 

SCHOLAR IN LAW, SENIOR FELLOW AND DIRECTOR, PROGRAM FOR THE STUDY OF REPRODUCTIVE JUSTICE, INFORMATION SOCIETY PROJECT, YALE LAW SCHOOL, NEW 

HAVEN, CT 

Ms. SMITH. I am an associate research scholar in law at Yale 

Law School where I direct the Program for the Study of Reproductive Justice. I am testifying today in my personal capacity and do 

not purport to represent the institutional views of Yale Law School, 

of course. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. 

I will make a few points here, and obviously I am open for questioning. I do not repeat some of the important points that have already been made by the Members, but I do want to point out a few 

things. First of all, this attack is part of a long campaign to discredit Planned Parenthood and other abortion providers. It is an 

indeed an attack on the right to abortion. 

But Planned Parenthood has been a specific target of many of 

these types of attacks, and just since the year 2000 they have been 

the target of nine similar smear campaigns using hidden videos or 

other recordings full of innuendo and false claims. Every single 

time these allegations have been thoroughly investigated and debunked. 

Second, I will make a quick comment on the videos. I am very 

reluctant to rely on anything in these videos given the findings of 

a team of forensic experts that has been submitted to this Congress, to this Committee rather, which found that the tapes have 

been distorted and misleadingly edited, and as a result, have no 

evidentiary value. This has also been recognized in a report issued 

this morning by the House Committee on Energy and Commerce, 

which also found that there is no evidence that Planned Parenthood or its affiliates have violated any Federal or State laws, and 

this is after conducting a thorough investigation, questioning witnesses, and reviewing documents. 

I can comment, however, on the statutes as issued. As has been 

pointed out, the Federal tissue statute does ban the sale of fetal 

tissue, but it specifically allows those who donate tissue to recoup 

reasonable reimbursement for costs, such as the cost of maintaining, storing, and transporting fetal tissue. These fetal tissue provisions were adopted with broad bipartisan support, passing by a 

vote of 93 to 4 in the Senate, for example. 

And Planned Parenthood officials specifically state in the videos 

in numerous statements that were edited out of the short videos 

that were put on the Web that they are only seeking reimbursement costs, that they do not make profits from fetal tissue donation. And, in fact, they refused contracts that were offered that offered unreasonable costs. There is simply nothing in the tapes that 

indicate a violation of the fetal tissue law. 

There are also these allegations that these misleadingly edited 

video tapes provide probable cause to believe that Planned Parenthood violates the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act. Now, I am intimately familiar with that act. I was lead counsel in the case chal-
45 

lenging the act. The Supreme Court upheld the law over my objections, and held that the law was narrowly interpreted to apply in 

situations to which intactness is completely irrelevant. So the allegations here are based mostly on repeated statements of the word 

‘‘intact’’ in a sort of ominous manner, the word being repeated both 

by interviewees and interviewers, kind of Law and Order style in 

the videos. 

But intactness has no relevance. It is neither sufficient nor is it 

perhaps even required to establish a violation of the act. Instead, 

all that matters under the statute is whether at the outset of the 

procedure, the physician had the intent to do two things: vaginally 

deliver a living fetus up to certain anatomical landmarks, and 

then, second, perform a step to cause fetal demise at that point. 

Now, the reason it was so limited was because interpreting it 

more broadly would have applied to many abortion procedures. And 

I am not surprised that there is so much confusion about this partial birth abortion statute because it was deceptively campaigned 

for in this Congress and to this Congress, and people were convinced it had something to do with banning late-term post-viability 

abortions to which it does not apply whatsoever. So, again, there 

is no evidence that physicians at Planned Parenthood perform procedures in a way outlawed by the act. 

Now, also there are a number of questions that have been raised 

generally about the ethics of fetal tissue donation. When similar 

issues were raised during the Reagan Administration, the National 

Institutes of Health convened a research panel of ethicists and scientists, those on both sides of the abortion issue. As Mr. Bopp stated, he, in fact, was on that panel. It was also chaired by a former 

judge who was himself anti-abortion. And a decisive majority of 

that panel found that fetal tissue research was morally desirable 

because it held great medical promise and could be accomplished 

without incentivizing abortion in any way. And, in fact, it has done 

so, and many medical advances have come from that research. 

I see that my time is almost done, so I want to skip to what I 

think is the really horrifying thing about this hearing. The horrifying thing here is the mismatch between the allegations and concerns here about abortion, about fetal tissue research and what is 

being considered, which is defunding Planned Parenthood’s nonabortion related services. As Judge Kavanaugh of the D.C. Circuit 

explained recently in his dissent from the denial of re-hearing en 

banc in Priests for Life, providing seamless access to contraceptives, which is a large portion of what Planned Parenthood does, 

‘‘reduces the number of unintended pregnancies. It furthers women’s health. It advances women’s personal and professional opportunities, reduces the number of abortions, and helps break a cycle 

of poverty. 

So the horrible irony here is that defunding Planned Parenthood 

would increase the number of unintended pregnancies and drastically, I fear, increase the number of abortions that are necessary 

in this country. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Smith follows:] 
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Mr. GOODLATTE. Ms. Ohden, welcome. 

TESTIMONY OF MELISSA OHDEN, ABORTION SURVIVOR, AND 

FOUNDER, ABORTION SURVIVORS NETWORK, GLADSTONE, MO 

Ms. OHDEN. Thank you so much for your time this morning, Mr. 

Chairman and representatives. 

Three hundred twenty-seven thousand, six hundred and fiftythree. This is the number of abortions that Planned Parenthood’s 

2014 fiscal report lists as being completed that year. Based on 

these numbers, 897 children will lose their lives to an abortion 

completed by Planned Parenthood each and every day. 

Why do I find this horrific? Because I actually have a lot in common with them. I was meant to be one of them. I should have been 

just another statistic, but by the grace of God I am more than a 

statistic. I come here to you today as a wife, a mother, a daughter, 

a sister, a master’s level prepared social worker, and, yes, as an 

abortion survivor, from a botched abortion to the dreaded complication, a child who lives. 

I have been called just about everything that you can imagine, 

but if you want to turn your attention up to the screen, as you can 

see in my medical records from 1977, kind of right there in the 

middle, saline infusion for an abortion was done, but was unsuccessful. And at other times throughout my medical records you will 

read statements like the complication of my birth mother’s pregnancy was a saline infusion abortion. 

You could certainly say that saline infusion complicated the pregnancy. It has taken years to unravel the secrets surrounding my 

survival, to have contact with my biological family, and even medical professionals that cared for me. And although there are still 

unanswered questions, what I do know is that my life was intended 

to be ended by that abortion. And even after I survived, my life was 

in jeopardy. 

You would not know it by looking at me today, but in August 

1977, I also survived a saline infusion abortion. And as Gianna 

shared, that saline infusion abortion involves injecting a toxic salt 

solution into the amniotic fluid surrounding the pre-born child. The 

intent of that toxic salt solution is to scald the child to death from 

the outside in. For days I soaked in that toxic salt solution, and 

on the 5th day of the procedure, my biological mother, who was a 

19-year-old college student, delivered me after her labor was induced. I should have been delivered dead that day as a successful 

abortion. 

In 2013, I learned through contact with my biological mother’s 

family that not only was this abortion forced upon her against her 

will at the age of 19, but also that it was my grandmother, my maternal grandmother, a nurse, who delivered me in this final step 

of the abortion procedure at St. Luke’s Hospital in Sioux City, 

Iowa. Unfortunately I also learned that when my grandmother realized that the abortion had not succeeded in ending my life, she 

demanded that I be left to die. 

I may never know how exactly the two nurses who were on staff 

that day found about me, but what I do know is that their willingness to fight for medical care to be provided to me ultimately sustained my life. 
59 

And I know there were children like me who were left to die at 

St. Luke’s Hospital. I met a nurse there who delivered a child 

much like me in 1976. She delivered a little boy after a failed saline infusion abortion, but she followed her superiors’ orders, and 

she placed him there in a utility closet in a bucket of formaldehyde 

to be picked up later as medical waste after he was left there to 

die alone. A bucket of formaldehyde in a utility closet was meant 

to be my fate after I survived that abortion attempt. 

I weighed a little less than 3 pounds when I survived. I suffered 

from jaundice, severe respiratory problems and seizures for an extended period of time. And one of the first notations in my medical 

records by a doctor after I survived is that I looked like I was about 

31 weeks gestational age when I was delivered. 

Despite the miracle of my survival, the doctor’s prognosis for my 

life was very poor initially. My adoptive parents were told that I 

would suffer from multiple disabilities throughout my life, yet here 

I am today perfectly healthy. Yet I know it is not just how abortion 

ends the life of children like me that is not talked about in today’s 

world. It is also not discussed what happens to children like me 

who live. I can tell you we are your friend, your neighbor, your coworker, and you would likely never guess by passing us on the 

street that we survived what we did. 

In my work as the founder of the Abortion Survivors Network, 

I have had contact with 203 of these other survivors. Letters from 

some of those survivors have been submitted to this Committee. I 

am here today to share my story to not only highlight the horror 

of abortion taking place at Planned Parenthood, but to give a voice 

to other survivors like me, and, most importantly, to give a name, 

a face, and a voice to the hundreds of thousands of children who 

will have their lives ended by Planned Parenthood this year alone. 

As you consider the horrors of what happens at Planned Parenthood each day, I would urge you to remember my story and 

Gianna’s, too. We may not have survived abortions at Planned Parenthood, but the expectation for our lives to be ended by abortion 

are the very same as those who do lose their lives there. And I 

have long believed that if my birth mother’s abortion would have 

taken place at a Planned Parenthood, I would not be here today. 

Completing over 300,000 abortions a year provides them with the 

experience to make sure that failures like me do not exist. 

As a fellow American and as a fellow human being, I deserve the 

same right to life, the same equal protection under the law as each 

and every one of you. Yet we live in a time where not only do such 

protections not exist, but my own tax dollars and yours go to fund 

an organization that has perfected the very thing that was meant 

to end my life, and this must end. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Ohden follows:] 
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Mr. GOODLATTE. Thank you very much, Ms. Ohden. We will 

begin the questioning of the witnesses under the 5-minute rule, 

and I will begin by recognizing myself. 

We will hear a lot today about efforts to sanitize the discussion 

of what takes place with regard to late-term abortions, which were 

the subject of the videos that have been made public. But, Ms. 

Jessen, I would like to read you a statement from the video and 

then another statement offered by the Center for Reproductive 

Rights and get your reaction to that, what I would call, sanitization. 

In the first video, Dr. Deborah Nucatola describes a D&E abortion saying, ‘‘So I am not going to crush that part. I’m going to 

crush basically below. I’m going to crush above.’’ Planned Parenthood issued an apology for Nucatola’s tone, but a markedly more 

clinical tone is used in a lawsuit brought by the Center for Reproductive Rights, a leading abortion advocacy group, against a Kansas law prohibiting dismemberment abortion. 

In the suit, CRR states, ‘‘starting around 15 weeks LMP, physicians performing abortions may use forceps or other instruments to 

remove the products of conception from the uterus often in combination with suction. Usually disarticulation of the fetus occurs as 

the physician brings fetal parts through the cervix. This procedure 

is known as dilation and evacuation, or D&E procedure.’’ As someone who has survived an abortion, can you please tell us how these 

two descriptions of an abortion procedure make you feel? 

Ms. JESSEN. My face. You can probably just see my face. It is 

horrifying to me, absolutely horrifying to hear such things. But I 

also will never ever forget for as long as I live watching Dr. 

Nucatola eat a salad and drink wine discussing so casually the dismemberment of children, and I will never ever forget that. I find 

it absolutely appalling that we are even having to conduct such a 

hearing in the United States of America. I hope that sufficiently 

answers your question. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. It does. Thank you. Mr. Bopp, several years ago, 

there was a news story that came out of Florida about an abortion 

survivor who was not rescued. Instead, according to World Magazine, the child was born alive in a toilet while the mother sought 

anxiously for someone at the abortion clinic to help her baby, but 

no one would help, and the baby died. Mr. Bopp, are you aware of 

other evidence that some abortion survivors are not rescued? 

Mr. BOPP. Yes, and the example that you gave was from Hialeah, 

Florida in 2006 when a live-born infant was born in an abortion 

clinic, and what happened to the live-born infant was the baby was 

put in a medical waste bag to die rather than provided any care 

or treatment. There have been a number of criminal and civil actions taken in that instance. But the people involved at the clinic 

were not charged, however, with the specific death of the child that 

they clearly caused. 

There have been other instances in the Kermit Gosnell case 

when, of course, he was killing born infants or partially-born infants using scissors by thrusting them into the back of the neck of 

the child. You do not do that if the baby is dead. You only do that 

if the baby is alive. And, of course, we do not know for sure wheth-
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er that was while the baby was still in the womb partially or was, 

in fact, outside of the womb. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Thank you, Mr. Bopp. Ms. Smith—— 

Ms. SMITH. Yes? 

Mr. GOODLATTE [continuing]. In the precursor to the Gonzales 

case, the case of Stenberg v. Carhart, Justice Kennedy dissented 

from the decision to strike down the partial birth abortion ban, 

which was later upheld in the Gonzales case in a different ban. 

Ms. SMITH. A different version, yes. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. That is right. He described at length the testimony provided by abortionist Leroy Carhart about the alternative 

D&E method or dismemberment procedure. The fetus can be alive 

at the beginning of the dismemberment process and can survive for 

at time while its limbs are being torn off. 

Dr. Carhart agreed that when you pull out a piece of the fetus, 

let us say, an arm or a leg, and remove that at the time just prior 

to removal of the portion of the fetus, the fetus is alive. Dr. Carhart 

also has observed a fetal heartbeat via ultrasound with extensive 

parts of the fetus removed, and testified that mere dismemberment 

of a limb does not always cause death because he knows a physician who removed the arm of a fetus only to have the fetus go on 

to be born as a living child with one arm. At the conclusion of a 

D&E abortion, no intact fetus remains. In Dr. Carhart’s words, the 

abortionist is left with a tray full of pieces. 

Justice Kennedy said, ‘‘The fetus in many cases dies just as a 

human adult or child would. It bleeds to death as it is torn from 

limb from limb.’’ Ms. Smith, do you believe this practice represents 

a humane way to die? 

Ms. SMITH. Let me separate, which I think something that is getting confused here in this hearing again and again, which is procedures performed on pre-viable fetuses and procedures that are performed on viable fetuses. Both of the women here on this panel are 

here today because they were viable at the time the procedures 

were performed. 

What you are talking about is pre-viability procedures performed 

on a fetus that cannot survive outside the womb. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Maybe, maybe not. Justice Kennedy was talking 

about a child that was born alive with only one arm because the 

other had been pulled off already in the abortion procedure. My 

question to you is—are you going to answer it—is this a humane 

way to die? 

Ms. SMITH. I believe for a fetus, pre-viable fetus, yes, a D&E procedure is a very humane procedure, and it protects the woman and 

her health and safety more than any other procedure. And, in fact, 

it was substituted for the saline infusion procedure. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Ms. Smith, I am going to reclaim my time and 

just say that I have to say that your view of humanity and mine 

are different. 

Ms. SMITH. I think—— 

Mr. GOODLATTE. And I will ask Ms. Jessen, and Mr. Bopp, and 

Ms. Ohden very quickly if you support, because you have already 

answered this question, if you support the Pain Capable Abortion 

Act that has passed the House of Representatives and is awaiting 

action in the United States Senate. Mr. Bopp? 
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Mr. BOPP. Yes. It is necessary for a number of reasons and pertinent to—— 

Mr. GOODLATTE. It would prevent many of the instances I just 

described to the three of you, would it not? 

Mr. BOPP. It would and could also prevent some of the instances, 

because we do not know for sure the gestational age of the child 

in some of the instances in the videos. But I could have also prevented some of them. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Correct. Ms. Jessen? 

Ms. JESSEN. I am speechless with Ms. Smith’s reply that she 

thinks that is a humane way to die. I support. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Ms. Ohden? 

Ms. OHDEN. Yes, I, too, support the Pain Capable Act, and I 

want to make it clear that I want abortion to be unthinkable in our 

country. 

Ms. JESSEN. Yes. 

Ms. OHDEN. I want us to not even have to have a conversation 

about another act. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Thank you. I agree. Mr. Conyers? The gentleman from Michigan is recognized for his questions. 

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank all the witnesses for being here today, but I want to direct my discussion with 

Ms. Smith. You note in your written testimony that Section 

289(g)(2)(A) prohibits the transfer of any human fetal tissue for 

valuable consideration. But the videos do not explain that the law 

specifies that valuable consideration does not include reasonable 

payment reimbursing costs. 

Would an individual watching these videos have any idea that 

the law excludes the reimbursement of reasonable costs? 

Ms. SMITH. No, I think they would not, and I think they are very 

deceptive in that regard so that they juxtapose discussions of 

money with the text of the ban on valuable consideration. It makes 

it appear that the money that is being discussed is the ‘‘valuable 

consideration’’ that is banned. There is no mention of the reasonable payments provision in the act and the allowance for reimbursement of reasonable expenses, and I think that is terribly deceptive in the video, yes. 

Well, I think that is a very perceptive response on your part. 

What are some of the examples of reasonable reimbursement costs, 

Ms. Smith? 

Ms. SMITH. Transportation costs, processing, preservation, quality control, storage. Those are all examples in the statute itself, 

and those are the things that would be appropriate. 

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you. You note that fetal tissue research has 

provided innumerable medical benefits and has saved lives. Could 

you please explain what these medical benefits have been? 

Ms. SMITH. Yes. In fact, in addition to the early polio vaccine in 

the 1930’s, that was actually a result of fetal tissue research. There 

are more recent examples, and the Department of Health and 

Human Services has called fetal tissue research vital to the improvements that are being made in some very important areas, 

such as retinal degeneration, Parkinson’s, ALS, infectious diseases, 

developmental disorders, autism, schizophrenia, diabetes. So there 

are many, many areas in which fetal tissue research has proved 
66 

important, and we are actually seeing lives being saved because of 

it and lives improved because of new treatments. 

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you. Could you explain, please, Ms. Smith, 

the ramifications for women if their access to abortion services is 

further restricted or ultimately denied? 

Ms. SMITH. Yes. I think one of the things we are seeing recently 

is a new wave of attack on abortion access in particular. So an unprecedented number of restrictions have been enacted in the last 

4 years by state legislatures, which have been designed really and 

have resulted in the closure of many clinics throughout the country. 

So Texas, in particular, as has been in the news quite often, has 

seen the number of clinics that are closed by half. There are States 

that have only one abortion provider for all residents in the State, 

like Mississippi and North Dakota. And in those States, many 

women are unable to get abortions. They cannot travel the distance 

required to obtain abortions. 

And the result of that is women with pregnancies that they do 

not wish to carry to term. Some of them will suffer health impacts, 

and some of them their lives will be endangered, and they will get 

sick. But also abortion is also equally important because as the Supreme Court has recognized, it protects the ability of women to 

participate equally in the economic and social life of the Nation. As 

Justice Ginsberg put it, ‘‘Abortion preserves a woman’s autonomy 

to determine her life’s course and, thus, to enjoy equal citizenship 

stature.’’ 

And that is why I believe the Supreme Court got it right when 

it balanced the issues here involved and the interest in potential 

fetal life, and the interests of the woman in her life, and her 

health, and her autonomy, and decided that abortion up to viability 

must be preserved. After viability it can be, in fact, banned, but 

with exceptions for women’s life and health. 

Mr. CONYERS. Well, would it—— 

Ms. SMITH. One interesting note. In Germany, for example, the 

courts there recognized a right of the fetus to life, but at the same 

time they recognized that the woman who carries that life in her 

uterus and carries it through, gestates it until it is fully developed, 

the woman has a greater right, and, thus, abortions are legal in 

Germany. 

Mr. CONYERS. I want to thank you very much for your response 

to my questions, and thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. The Chair thanks the gentleman. And before 

going to our next Member, I want to make available for the record 

the following letters from other abortion survivors and a letter submitted to the written record by Americans United for Life. Without 

objection, these will be made a part of the record. 

[The information referred to follows:] 
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Mr. GOODLATTE. And I also want to clarify something that Ms. 

Smith said about the Energy and Commerce Committee. The report 

you referred to is a report of the minority of that Committee and 

is by no means reflective of the work of the majority of the Energy 

and Commerce Committee. 

Ms. SMITH. Thank you for clarifying that. 

Mr. CONYERS. Mr. Chairman—— 

Ms. SMITH. I just received it this morning, so. 

Mr. CONYERS [continuing]. May I please introduce into the record 

the Planned Parenthood statement as well as the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights and Human Rights statement? 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Without objection, those will be made a part of 

the record as well. 

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Mr. GOODLATTE. And the Chair now recognizes the gentleman 

from Wisconsin, Mr. Sensenbrenner, for his questions. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Thank you very much. Ms. Smith, you 

have had a great deal of experience in litigating these questions, 

and could you please give the Committee your definition of what 

constitutes ‘‘infanticide?′′ 

Ms. SMITH. What constitutes, I am sorry? I did not hear you. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. ‘‘Infanticide.’’ 

Ms. SMITH. ‘‘Infanticide?’’ I think infanticide is when a baby is 

killed, an infant. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Okay. Now, assuming that the baby is born 

following a botched abortion and is alive, do you think that either 

killing the baby by commission or killing the baby by omission is 

infanticide? 

Ms. SMITH. I think I would have to do more research on the 

State laws and what—— 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Well, we have a Federal Born Alive Act, 

yeah. 

Ms. SMITH. Yeah, there is a Federal Born Alive Act that requires, 

so I would say it was a violation of the Born Alive Infant Protection 

Act not to take actions to preserve the life of a viable child. But 

when you are talking about a pre-viable fetus, and let us remember 

that the—— 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. No, I am talking about born alive. A previable fetus is not born alive, and does not fall—— 

Ms. SMITH. Well, a pre-viable—— 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER [continuing]. Does not fall under this definition. Now, I guess what you are saying that both Ms. Jessen and 

Ms. Ohden, if there were not sufficiently concerned nurses that 

found them after the abortionists have not killed them during the 

delivery, the partial birth abortion delivery, then there would have 

a crime of infanticide simply by abandoning an alive baby, and not 

taking care of it. Am I correct in that? 

Ms. SMITH. Well, that certainly would be a violation of the current Born Alive Infant Protection Act. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Okay. Well, that is what the law is now. 

Ms. SMITH. Yes. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. So I guess you are admitting that I am correct in this. 

Ms. SMITH. I am saying that it would be a violation of the Born 

Alive Protection Act. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Okay, fine. I think you are right on that. 

Ms. SMITH. Yes. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. You and I agree on that. 

Ms. SMITH. That that is the Federal law, yes. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Yes, that is the Federal law. Well then, 

how come abortionists do not follow the Federal law when they 

make a mistake and the baby is not killed prior to being born? 

Ms. SMITH. To my knowledge, they do follow the Federal law. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Well, we have two examples sitting to your 

right and left of people where the law was not followed, and 

even—— 

Ms. SMITH. Well, the Born Alive Infant Protection Act was not 

in place when they were born, so. 
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Mr. SENSENBRENNER. I know it was not, but I started out by asking you to define ‘‘infanticide,’’ and there were murder laws that 

were on the books even before Born Alive. 

Ms. SMITH. Yes. Most murder laws in the country require if a 

fetus is born alive, then it becomes a person. So then an act taken 

to, in fact, cause demise at that point would be murder in most 

States. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. And if they did not do anything to save the 

child’s life—— 

Ms. SMITH. An act of omission—— 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER [continuing]. Would it be manslaughter? 

Ms. SMITH. I do not know if an act of omission would have qualified in those cases. I am not familiar with the old cases on that. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Okay. 

Ms. SMITH. And I do not think that they were very common, so 

I think we would have heard a lot more about it if they were. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Okay. 

Ms. SMITH. And certainly now—— 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Well, we would be hearing a lot about it 

when it happens now, and we have two witnesses who were born 

alive, you know—— 

Ms. SMITH. In the 1970’s. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Infanticide laws were on the books in most 

States without the Born Alive Protection Act, and they are here. 

Now, I guess my question is, you are a lawyer. You have been advising Planned Parenthood. 

Ms. SMITH. No, I have never actually advised them. I have 

never—— 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Well, you represented their interests before 

the Supreme Court of the United States. 

Ms. SMITH. I actually did not. I was counsel for different plaintiffs in that case, but Planned Parenthood, they were a separate 

case, so. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Well, I am sure Planned Parenthood did 

not disagree with anything you said to the Court, right? 

Ms. SMITH. Probably not. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Okay. Well, good, we will assume that. 

Ms. SMITH. I hope not. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. We will assume that for the sake of argument. Now, whether or not Planned Parenthood broke the law, 

when Congress sets budgeting priorities we have to decide what is 

important and what is not, and which has a higher priority and 

should be funded, and which has a lower priority and should not 

be funded in the age of a $19 trillion deficit. 

Ms. SMITH. Right. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Now, could you please tell us why Planned 

Parenthood needs to get over a half a billion dollars of Federal 

funding every year when there are other pressing needs, such as 

feeding hungry children that maybe we should put that money 

into? 

Ms. SMITH. Let us be clear that Planned Parenthood is not getting any Federal funding for abortion. What Planned Parenthood 

is—— 
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Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Well, money is fungible, Ms. Smith. You 

and I know that money is fungible—— 

Ms. SMITH. I do not believe that—— 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. So the question is whether Congress 

should appropriate another half billion dollars plus to Planned Parenthood when we could be spending that money on feeding hungry 

children. This is a question of priorities. I would like to know what 

your priority is—— 

Ms. SMITH. My priority—— 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER.—Planned Parenthood or feeding hungry 

children. 

Ms. SMITH. My priority, I think funding Planned Parenthood and 

the services it provides is equal to feeding children because what 

Planned Parenthood does is preserve women’s lives that are the 

mothers of those children. It provides contraception—— 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. How can they be the mothers of the children when children are aborted through Planned Parenthood? 

Ms. SMITH. Because many women go to Planned Parenthood who 

have children and have families. In fact, even women who are obtaining abortion, 60 percent of women obtaining abortions in this 

country already have at least one, if not more, children. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Okay. 

Ms. SMITH. So women are often mothers—— 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. I guess your priorities are different than 

mine. 

Ms. SMITH. My priorities are funding Planned Parenthood’s excellent high-quality, comprehensive healthcare services that go to 

low-income women throughout this country, women who otherwise 

would become pregnant unintendedly, and who would then need 

abortions. So I would think as somebody who opposes abortion, you 

would, in fact, support, as does Judge Kavanaugh of the D.C. Circuit, the funding of contraceptive services to reduce unintended 

pregnancies and to reduce the number of abortions. It is really a 

no-brainer. It makes no sense not to fund those services if you 

want to reduce the number of abortions. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Well, I do not think there is statistics that 

indicate that that is the case. 

Ms. SMITH. There absolutely are. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. I am way out of time, so I will yield back. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. The Chair thanks the gentleman, and recognizes the gentleman from New York, Mr. Nadler. 

Mr. NADLER. Mr. Chairman, first of all, before I begin my 5 minutes, I ask unanimous consent to insert into the record a letter 

from 56 national faith-based and religious groups supporting 

Planned Parenthood. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Without objection, it will be made a part of the 

record. 

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Mr. NADLER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Also before I start my 

statement, I simply want to say, I want to clarify, when the Born 

Alive Infant Protection Act, whatever we called it, was brought before this Committee, I surprised people by saying that I saw no 

point to opposing it, that it was a deliberate trap designed to entice 

pro-abortion groups into opposing it. 

It is already the law of the land against murder. Anyone who 

kills a child that has been born outside the womb, anyone who 

stands idly by and does not help it survive is guilty of murder or 

manslaughter, period, no questions asked, with or without the Born 

Alive Protection Act. And it was introduced simply to slander the 

abortion groups to say that pro-abortion people support infanticide. 

We do not obviously. 

Mr. Chairman, before I begin my questions, I would like to express my dismay at the title given to this hearing: ‘‘Planned Parenthood Exposed: Examining the Horrific Abortion Practices of the 

Nation’s Largest Abortion Provider.’’ The title alone is enough to 

call this hearing a farce. It is wrong and should be beneath this 

Committee to state its conclusion without a shred of evidence and 

before we receive even a word of testimony. 

Perhaps the majority’s conclusion explains why not a single representative from Planned Parenthood is here to testify about its 

practices. It may also explain why the Chairman has chosen to ignore the request from Ranking Members Conyers and Cummings 

to suspend these one-sided investigations until they include the socalled Center for Medical Progress, which made the videos about 

which we have heard today. 

Of course, if we really wanted to hear about the practices of 

Planned Parenthood, we could have hours of testimony on the compassionate, comprehensive, and affordable healthcare services they 

provide women and families, but the majority is not interested in 

hearing that testimony. If you clear away the partisan rhetoric, it 

appears the Chairman has called this hearing to examine how 

Planned Parenthood participates in fetal tissue donation, which 

Congress made illegal with almost unanimous bipartisan support 

in 1993. 

In the years since, fetal tissue and cells have been used to make 

groundbreaking medical discoveries. If you want to find a cure for 

diabetes, for stroke, or for hundreds of other life-threatening illnesses, fetal tissues and cells are a necessary part of the research 

toolkit, and a moral part. 

The law surrounding fetal tissue donation are simple and clear. 

Planned Parenthood has consistently and clearly demonstrated 

that the affiliates who participate in fetal tissue research, which 

represent about 1 percent of all 700 Planned Parenthood health 

centers in just two States, comply with these laws, just as they 

comply with thousands of other Federal, State, and local laws and 

regulations every single day. 

That should be the conclusion of this hearing, but instead before 

any inquiry, this Committee has already declared Planned Parenthood guilty and chosen to capitalize on the sensational, unsubstantiated smears made in a series of unethical, possibly illegal, videos. 

The goal here is clear: to smear Planned Parenthood. Senator Joseph McCarthy would be proud of this Committee today. 
105 

Sadly, this is not the first time Congress has been drawn into 

this charade. Every time it follows the same pattern. Extremists 

try to entrap Planned Parenthood into unethical or illegal conduct, 

and then make sensationalist accusations. But in no time at all, 

the claims are debunked and the investigations find no wrongdoing. This pattern is being repeated here today. 

Mr. Bopp, I would like to walk through some of that history with 

you. Were you aware, Mr. Bopp, that in 2012, anti-abortion groups 

released videos claiming to show Planned Parenthood was conducting sex-elective abortions? 

Mr. BOPP. No. 

Mr. NADLER. You are under oath, Mr. Bopp. 

Mr. BOPP. I know what is in my mind, Congressman. 

Mr. NADLER. So you are not aware of that. 

Mr. BOPP. I was not aware of that. 

Mr. NADLER. Then you remarkably ignorant for someone in the 

field, and it was not true. Mr. Bopp, are you aware in 2011 that 

anti-abortion groups released videos claiming to show Planned Parenthood condoned sex trafficking and statutory rape? 

Mr. BOPP. No. 

Mr. NADLER. You are still under oath. And following the release 

of those videos, Republicans in Congress tried to cut off funding for 

Planned Parenthood and nearly shut down the government. Are 

you aware of that? 

Mr. BOPP. I do not remember that they were connected in that 

way. 

Mr. NADLER. Okay. But you remember that the two things occurred. 

Mr. BOPP. You know, the older I get, the harder my memory—— 

Mr. NADLER. I asked you a question. Do you remember—— 

Mr. BOPP. I am trying to answer your question, Congressman. 

Mr. NADLER. Yes or no, do you remember or not? 

Mr. BOPP. I do not know what your question is. 

Mr. NADLER. Do you remember that following the release of 

those videos, Republicans in Congress tried to cut off funding for 

Planned Parenthood and nearly shut down the government? 

Mr. BOPP. I have answered that question. 

Mr. NADLER. Okay. And your answer was that the two things, 

that Congress tried to cut of funding for Planned Parenthood and 

that government was nearly shut down, and you do not remember 

if they were connected. Is that correct? 

Mr. BOPP. In that way, yes. 

Mr. NADLER. Thank you. But, of course, Planned Parenthood already reported the actors claiming to be sex traffickers to the FBI, 

so once again not true. The list goes on. In 2010, videos falsely 

claimed women were pressured into abortion, not true. In 2009, 

false claims about clinics avoiding parental consent, not true. In 

2002, false claims about statutory rape, not true. And for a real 

sense of de ́ja` vu, in 2000 videos were released claiming Planned 

Parenthood was participating in illegal tissue sales. But, of course, 

when the man who made those videos came before Congress, he totally recanted his testimony, and an FBI investigation did not lead 

to any charges against Planned Parenthood. Again, not true. 

Mr. Bopp, were you aware of that hearing? 
106 

Mr. BOPP. I do not recall it. 

Mr. NADLER. Okay. What is true is that the people who made 

these videos are liars in a long line of liars. It is true that if you 

had a shred of real evidence that Planned Parenthood is breaking 

the law, you would have taken it to a State or a Federal prosecutor 

right away, but you did not. Mr. Chairman, if you had even a bit 

of real confidence in the man who made these videos, you would 

have brought him here to testify before this Committee, but you 

did not, and you do not have that confidence. 

The fact is, this is all a farce designed to shame women for exercising their constitutional right to an abortion, to scare abortion 

providers into ending their services, and to eliminate options for 

women to access health services. This is all based on lies, knowingly based on lies. I hope the majority comes to its senses and realizes they have fallen into the same sad pattern of lies and lies 

that we have seen for more than a decade. 

I yield back my time. 

Mr. FRANKS [presiding]. The Chair recognizes Mr. Forbes from 

Virginia for 5 minutes. 

Mr. FORBES. I want to start, Mr. Bopp, by apologizing for anybody on this Committee calling any witness that comes before this 

Committee ‘‘remarkably ignorant,’’ and I apologize for that statement even though it was not made by us. 

I can understand the voices on the other side of this Committee 

who would say please do not look at the video. This not about the 

video. We do not want to talk about the acts in the video, kind of 

like the Wizard of Oz. Pay no attention to the man moving those 

levers behind there. 

What I cannot understand is that those same voices cannot say 

that there is no act that is too far, there is no act that is too brutal, 

there is no act that is not acceptable even for Planned Parenthood. 

And they want to talk about dollars. Ms. Ohden, if you are correct 

on the number of abortions, even though they do not report these 

numbers, based on the best evidence we have, you are talking 

about $147 million for abortions last year that are big dollars. 

And what just startles me is when I hear Mrs. Smith say, and 

I want to read this again. This is what the Chairman stated, this 

is Justice Kennedy’s statements, not mine. He says this. He described at length the testimony provided by abortionist Leroy 

Carhart about the alternate D&E method or dismemberment procedure. This is what he said in Court. 

And Mrs. Smith does not say that is wrong. She does not say 

that is inaccurate. Here is what it says. ‘‘The fetus can be alive at 

the beginning of the dismemberment process, and can survive for 

a time while its limbs are being torn off.’’ 

Dr. Carhart agreed that when you pull out a piece of the fetus, 

let us say an arm or a leg, and remove that at the time just prior 

to the removal of the portion of the fetus, the fetus is alive. Dr. 

Carhart has observed fetal heartbeat via ultrasound with extensive 

parts of the fetus removed, and testified that near dismemberment 

of a limb does not always cause death because he knows of a physician who removed the arm of a fetus, only to have the fetus go on 

to be born as a living child with one arm. 
107 

At the conclusion of the D&E abortion, no intact fetus remains. 

In Dr. Carhart’s words, ‘‘The abortionist is left with a tray full of 

pieces.’’ And then Justice Kennedy goes on in a Supreme Court 

case: ‘‘The fetus in many cases dies just as a human adult or child 

would. It bleeds to death as it torn limb from limb.’’ 

And to say that you support a woman’s right to choose is one 

thing. To say that you might want to give healthcare to people is 

another thing. But for anybody to say that procedure and what you 

just described is humane, that that does not go too far, that is not 

too brutal, that is humane and acceptable just defies my imagination. I could not imagine that happening to one of my pets, much 

less an unborn child. 

And then when I look, Ms. Smith, I know you state that you are 

an associate research scholar in law and senior fellow and director 

for Program for the Study of Reproductive Justice at Yale Law 

School. And I know you are here in your personal capacity today. 

But I just wondered, does Yale have any study for the rights of individuals like Ms. Jessen or Ms. Ohden to be born without cerebral 

palsy, because there was a lot of questions when Mr. Sensenbrenner was raising about those issues a while ago that are apparently unanswered. Are there any such studies up there that would 

dare suggest the right of one of these children not to be born with 

one arm? 

And, Mr. Chairman, and that is what just baffles me about this, 

not that we have disagreements, but that none of those voices in 

the crowd do not look at this act, do not look at this act, can find 

no point that is too far, no point that is too brutal, no point that 

is inhumane. And then they dare suggest that we are extreme. 

And with that, Mr. Chairman, I just thank you for this hearing 

and for our witnesses coming here today. Thank you for being here, 

and I yield back. 

Mr. FRANKS. Thank you, Mr. Forbes. The Chair recognizes Ms. 

Jackson Lee for 5 minutes. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Let me thank the Chairman for yielding and 

for allowing those with a great deal of emotion on this question to 

be able to project and present their views. I have lived through this 

Judiciary Committee for a period of years, to the witnesses, that 

I have been through eons of these hearings starting back in the 

1990’s on a medical procedure that saved the lives of women that 

were called the partial birth abortion. 

Let me say to the witnesses, I have the greatest respect for your 

viewpoint, and I am grateful for you being here, grateful for your 

life, and grateful for your passion. As an aside let me say that as 

a graduate of Yale, undergraduate, and being very familiar with 

Yale Law School, I know that the law school is one of the premiere 

teachers of the Constitution, and well recognizes the rights of all 

people. And I would venture to say that there are individuals with 

different thought from you, I would imagine, Professor Smith. 

Ms. SMITH. Absolutely. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. And, therefore, to my colleague, yes, Yale Law 

School and Yale undergraduate schools produce individuals that 

have a great concern for the Constitution of this Nation. 

So let me begin my questioning and to ask Mr. Bopp, would you 

join in a request to the director of the National Institutes of Health 
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to suggest convening an expert panel to re-look at, the expert 

panel, on fetal tissue research. Would you join in that request? 

Mr. BOPP. I have not considered that question. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Well, would you? I am giving it to you now. 

Mr. BOPP. I am not prepared to testify under oath whether I 

agree with that or not. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I am sorry. Pardon me? Do you think it is a 

good idea? If we have such a dispute here about fetal tissue research, would it be a good idea? 

Mr. BOPP. Well, I served on a panel that I thought fairly explored 

the issues that came to conclusions that I believe were not warranted, and that history has proven were fallacious. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. So you would not be interested in having a review. 

Mr. BOPP. I do not know what—— 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I thank you for your answer. 

Mr. BOPP. I do not know what benefit it would be. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I thank you for your answer. Let me say that 

Planned Parenthood complying with the Fetal Research Commission under President Reagan, you may have been one of those did 

not agree. But I would argue that the consensus came out and the 

panel found that it was an acceptable public policy to support 

transplant research with fetal tissue, and as well developed a 

guideline that said the research in question is intended to achieve 

significant medical goals. 

Professor Smith, is it not true, and this question has been asked 

again, but I think it should be asked over again, that out of this 

long journey of fetal tissue research, the impact in medicine has 

been overwhelming dealing with issues of polio, measles, rubella, 

or Rh disease. The use of fetal tissue cell lines has helped in vaccinations, normal human development in order to gain insight into 

birth defects and other developmental diseases. Has this come to 

your attention, Professor Smith, that fetal tissue research in the 

medical science has generated this kind of productivity? 

Ms. SMITH. Absolutely. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. And in actuality, the proponent of these videos was actually trying to highlight the ugliness of what is misdirected, which is the harvesting of organs, which that was not the 

case. 

Let me ask you this question, Mr. Bopp. Are you aware of how 

Mr. Daleiden was able to engage in these false and misdirected, 

distorted, and maybe criminal videos? Do you know how he was 

able to do that? 

Mr. BOPP. I have been advised by the Committee staff that this 

hearing is not on that subject and I should not comment. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Well, I am not sure how the Committee could 

staff could tell you it is not on that subject because the videos are 

all in the letters that have been sent by the three Republican 

chairs of the Committees that are engaged in it. 

So let me just say to you what he actually did. He stole—stole— 

stole the identity of the president of the Feminist Club at Mr. 

Daleiden’s high school. When he was asked to participate in a lawsuit, Mr. Daleiden invoked his Fifth Amendment right to refrain 
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from self-incrimination in response to this lawsuit. That does not 

sound like a man who has any truth to stand on. 

Might I ask you, Professor Smith, if you would, the question was 

asked to you about whether or not Planned Parenthood does anything good with respect to women’s health. Would you recite that 

again for me, that separate from the limited right to abortion 

under Roe v. Wade, do they not engage in women’s health? 

Ms. SMITH. Absolutely. The services that are supported by the 

Federal Government include contraceptive services, wellness 

exams, cancer screenings, STI testing, and STD treatment. And 

Planned Parenthood services millions of women. 1 in 5 women in 

this country has visited a Planned Parenthood clinic. 

It is a beloved institution not just by me, but by most Americans 

because it is one of the few accessible providers of excellent highquality care outside of the abortion area in addition to the limited 

number of abortions they do. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I would like—— 

Mr. ISSA. Regular order, please. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I would like to put into the record, and I 

would ask that we not engage in this kind of Member attack. I am 

putting into the record state-by-state data that indicates that 

through the Planned Parenthood with respect to health and 2 million patients, 371,000 pap tests and 451,000 breast exams. This is 

cervical and breast cancer screenings by Planned Parenthood to 

young women. Not young women, to women who otherwise would 

not be able to afford it. I ask unanimous consent for that to be submitted, and every Member’s State is recorded here of helping these 

women get healthcare. 

Another I would like to put into the record from the Young 

Women From URGE, Unite for Reproductive Gender Equity, who 

have indicated that young people are less likely to have insurance 

and have low-paying jobs. I would like to submit this into the 

record. 

And finally, I would like to submit into the record from the Congressional Research Service the definition of ‘‘fetal tissue,’’ what is 

fetal tissue research, and the amazing miracles that have come 

about through fetal tissue research. 

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Ms. JACKSON LEE. I am not here to push abortion. I am here to 

push life, and the respect for women, and the Roe v. Wade legality 

of what we do under the Hyde amendment. And I am not here to 

defund Planned Parenthood that has now been presented by Members of Congress—— 

Mr. ISSA. Regular order. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE [continuing]. Members of Congress who really 

should be getting rid of sequester and not be stopping women from 

getting good healthcare. Please do not stop women from getting 

good healthcare. I am thankful for the Chairman’s generosity, and 

I thank him so very much. And I yield back my time. 

Mr. FRANKS. I thank the gentlelady, and I now recognize Mr. 

Issa for 5 minutes. 

Mr. ISSA. Wow, I would sure like to have the time she yielded 

back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The gentlelady from Texas cited the Hyde amendment, so I 

would like to take a moment. I served on this Committee and on 

Foreign Affairs with the late Henry Hyde, and I would like to take 

a moment to create a perspective for just a moment for this hearing because I think the hearing with Chairman Henry Hyde’s portrait to your right looking down needs to be focused a little bit 

more on his legacy and a little bit less on what I hear perhaps on 

both sides of the aisle where we are having a discussion perhaps 

beyond the scope of our jurisdiction and beyond the scope of what 

I think the Chairman asked for. 

Many years ago Henry Hyde came to California, and no surprise, 

he was well known for his pro-life position, and the California 

Right to Life group asked if they could meet with him. We were 

together for another reason, and he said, sure. 

So we got together in a room of very strident, pro-life advocates 

in California, and they asked him about overturning Roe, and they 

asked him about every issue that you might expect. And Henry, 

more eloquently than I ever could, redirected the conversation to 

why he was pro-life and why it was so essential that Congress take 

a position. 

And what he said in my poor interpretation of Henry Hyde was 

that a Nation that does not provide respect for life is not a Nation 

that he or anyone else could be proud of; that the life of the unborn 

and the concern for their welfare, the life of the newborn, the life 

of the infirmed, and the life of the elderly all were issues which a 

civilized society had to promote. They had to promote it both publicly and privately. 

He never, as far as I know, supported broadly trying to reverse 

everything that was done, but he did stand for a question of will 

we treat people with respect. And I bring that up before asking 

questions because the questions from what I have seen in these 

videos, however obtained, seems to have a question of are these individuals, not the organization for a moment, these individuals. Do 

they have a respect for the sanctity of life? 

These are more than organs. These were the unborn who now 

are hopefully providing life to others so they may live or research. 

It is legal. It is part of the process. But there is a question about 

whether an organization and its employees are as efficient as they 

should be, effective as they should be, as good stewards of half a 
150 

billion dollars of our money, and whether or not their conduct is 

conduct that is inappropriate for this organization to further allow. 

And I would like to leave it at that because I think the important 

thing for us to consider here today is with our half billion dollars 

every year under any President, including President Bush for all 

8 years of his. Planned Parenthood receives a large block of money, 

more than any other organization of its type. Other organizations 

including clinics in my district receive similar money for similar 

outreach to help women and families. These are funds that the 

Congress has decided with your taxpayer dollars that we will appropriate and deliver for this purpose. 

So, Mr. Bopp, I know your long history in the pro-life movement, 

but I am going to ask you just one question. Assuming that this 

half billion dollars and other monies are going to be spent, should 

we not make sure that they are spent to the best steward of that 

money for the most effective support of women’s health, and should 

we not take an interest in whether or not that organization and its 

employees are respectful and supportive of women’s health and the 

quality of life for they and, in many cases, their children to be 

born, not just children not to be born. Thank you. 

Mr. BOPP. Yes, I think that is a proper role of Congress. I mean, 

after all, there are hundreds, maybe thousands of providers out 

there who, if the half billion was not given to Planned Parenthood, 

could receive those funds for these beneficial services that are not 

tainted by association with abortion, not tainted by their reckless 

practices in terms of procurement of fetal tissue. 

And, I think everybody would be a lot more comfortable with 

that, that resources would not be inadvertently diverted to support 

those activities, and its association would be terminated. 

Mr. ISSA. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. FRANKS. And I thank the gentleman, and would now recognize the gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Cohen, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. COHEN. Thank you. Ms. Smith, can you tell us what you 

think was incorrect in the portrayal in the videos of Planned Parenthood’s activities and the use of fetal tissue and the price thereof? 

Mr. BOPP. Well, if I understand your question—— 

Mr. COHEN. I said ‘‘Ms. Smith.’’ Thank you, Mr. Bopp. 

Mr. BOPP. Oh, I am sorry. 

Mr. COHEN. Yeah, I know you are getting older, and you do not 

hear, and you do not remember. 

Mr. BOPP. You are right. 

Mr. COHEN. Ms. Smith, thank you. 

Ms. SMITH. It is hard for me to tell from the videos what is correct or incorrect because I am not familiar with Planned Parenthood’s actual practices. I am not a lawyer for Planned Parenthood. 

What I believe happened according to the team of forensic experts 

and their report is that the video, things were edited out of context 

and made to look like they were actually negotiating, haggling, one 

of the Members put it, about the price as if they were selling body 

parts. And I do not think that is true. I do not think they were selling fetal tissue, so. 

Mr. COHEN. Does the law allow them to get reimbursed for the 

cost? 
151 

Ms. SMITH. Absolutely, the law allows them to get reimbursed. 

So the discussion of money was about reimbursement costs, and, in 

fact, even in the edited version, the official does say we are not in 

this for the profit, and I have to check and see what the reasonable 

costs are. I understand there were other statements that were edited out of that version that I have not seen. 

Mr. COHEN. Mr. Bopp, his comments made on some of the videos, 

he said that they raise considerable concerns that infants are born 

alive after an induced abortion at Planned Parenthood and then 

killed to harvest their tissue. This would be a violation of Federal 

law, I believe. What is your response to that, Ms. Smith? 

Ms. SMITH. I did not see any evidence or hear anything about a 

violation of the Born Alive statute. If we are talking about pre-viable fetuses, I do not see any violation at all. 

Mr. COHEN. And Mr. Bopp has raised concerns that fetal tissue 

research may be an incentive for women to obtain an abortion, 

which she might otherwise might be conflicted and not do so. Can 

you even make a comment on such a convoluted statement? 

Ms. SMITH. Well, I know a number of women who have gone 

through the process of deciding whether to have an abortion, and 

fetal tissue donation does not seem to me to be something that 

would enter into their decision making on that issue itself. So I 

cannot imagine that that is happening. 

Also I understand consent and the decision to make the abortion 

to be happening at a time separate from a discussion about whether given the fact that one has decided to have an abortion, would 

one like to contribute to the enormous health and lifesaving benefits that can come from fetal tissue, those two decisions are being 

made separately. And I think the 1988 report recommends that, 

and I think that is appropriate. And it seems to me that that is 

happening. 

Mr. COHEN. You have already commented, but I would like to 

hear it again about some of the research being done with the use 

of fetal tissue to protect people and save people’s lives in the future, and maybe find cures and treatments. 

Ms. SMITH. Yes, it is contributing, and there was a recent indication from the NIH about this, about the importance of fetal tissue 

research to many new treatment areas, including diabetes, common 

diseases like diabetes, and uncommon ones like ALS or Lou 

Gehrig’s disease, and other diseases that we know little about— 

Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s. And there are some promising new treatments in those areas. 

Mr. COHEN. As an individual who had polio, and you mentioned 

that polio was—— 

Ms. SMITH. Yes, the early polio vaccines came from fetal cell line 

research, I believe. 

Mr. COHEN. I appreciate what fetal tissue can do. Alzheimer’s is 

an issue that is very important to many in America because so 

many Americans are going to suffer from it, and it costs us so 

much at our budget, let alone losing our loved ones, and this is research. 

Ms. SMITH. Let me say I do think it is important that we are concerned about consent, and that consent is properly obtained from 

the woman, and that as the Committee represented in 1988 or rec-
152 

ommended in 1988, that the decision to donate be made at a time 

after one has already decided whether or not to have an abortion. 

I think that is a very appropriate safeguard against incentivizing 

abortion somehow. 

I find it difficult to think that this would change a woman’s mind 

about having an abortion. Women make decisions to have an abortion for all kinds of reasons. This does not seem to me to be one 

of them. It would be something that one would decide only after 

one had made the actual decision. 

Mr. COHEN. Thank you, Ms. Smith. I yield back the balance. 

Mr. FRANKS. I thank the gentleman. I will now recognize myself 

for 5 minutes for questions. 

There is a lot of focus here by certain Committee Members related to just the fetal tissue portions of it as to the legality or is 

it for sale, a lot of that. But one thing that is pretty clear. If you 

look at the videos, you do see that these little body parts represented what once was a living, feeling human child, and that 

when they came into Planned Parenthood, they were living, human 

little children, and they died a brutal death while they were there. 

And we cannot avoid that reality. 

With all of the subterfuge, and the distortion, and trying to do 

the bait and switch tactic, do not forget that these were once little 

babies that were killed at the hands of Planned Parenthood. 

In the first video released by Center for Medical Progress, Mr. 

Bopp, Dr. Nucatola, senior director of Medical Services at Planned 

Parenthood, described the factor of intent as playing an important 

role in an abortionist use of the abortion method. She said, ‘‘The 

Federal abortion ban is a law, and laws are up to interpretation.’’ 

So there are some people who interpret it as intent. So if I say on 

day one I do not intend to do this, what ultimately happens does 

not matter because I did not intend to do this on day one, so I am 

complying with the law. 

So I ask you two questions. First of all, do you believe Dr. 

Nucatola’s reliance on intent as she described it represents a valid 

legal approach? And secondly, what would change if we had the 

Pain Capable Unborn Child Protection Act on the books here at the 

moment? 

Mr. BOPP. Well, I think she was referring to the issue of partial 

birth abortion, and it has been the dodge by the pro-abortion side 

that that law is only violated if you intend at the very beginning 

to have a birth partially delivered of a live child, and then killing 

the child, and then completing the delivery, that that is the process 

that you intended at the beginning. 

However, the law does not work like that. The intent applies to 

each of those actions; that is, for instance, the intent to kill the 

child once the child is partially delivered, not whether this complete process was intended in the first instance. Secondly, the Pain 

Capable Unborn Child Protection Act that was passed by this 

House of Representatives, there is certainly a potential that some 

of the children who are born intact and potentially alive are produced at that period of time in which that act would prevent that 

sort of activity. As a result it could have an impact on obtaining 

fetal tissue in those instances. 
153 

Mr. FRANKS. Well, thank you, sir. Ms. Smith, I will turn to you. 

When you were asked to define ‘‘infanticide,’’ your own words were, 

‘‘It is when a baby or infant is killed.’’ The Born Alive Infants Protection Act of 2002 clarifies that infants who were born alive during abortion or attempted abortion are afforded all legal protections 

enjoyed by other persons in the United States. 

Ms. SMITH. Yes. 

Mr. FRANKS. Please tell me if you would support amendments to 

the Federal Born Alive Infants Protection Act to protect infants 

born alive infants into these incredibly vulnerable circumstances by 

providing a requirement that abortion providers or their staff immediately call 9-1-1 for an emergency transfer to a hospital of these 

infants born alive at the clinic, and to also provide criminal penalties, including prison time and fines for physicians and medical 

professionals who do not provide medically-appropriate and reasonable care to a born alive infant. 

Ms. SMITH. If you are talking about a viable fetus that is born 

alive—— 

Mr. FRANKS. I am talking about born alive. 

Ms. SMITH. A viable fetus. 

Mr. FRANKS. I am talking about born alive. 

Ms. SMITH. Okay. So you are saying pre-viable. 

Mr. FRANKS. I am talking about born alive. 

Ms. SMITH. Pre-viable. 

Mr. FRANKS. I am talking born alive. I do not know what you do 

not understand. 

Ms. SMITH. We are talking about cross-purposes. 

Mr. FRANKS. We are talking about a child who is born and is 

alive. Is that hard to understand? 

Ms. SMITH. That is not hard to understand, but the question is 

it a viable fetus. If it is not viable, nothing will save it. 

Mr. FRANKS. So viability transcends being born alive? 

Ms. SMITH. Like the Supreme Court, I believe that the proper 

line we draw is at viability, yes, because if you call 9-1-1—— 

Mr. FRANKS. So whatever that legal term ‘‘viability’’ is, if the 

child can do ballet, if they have not achieved that viability thing, 

then even though they are born alive, then all of a sudden that 

transcends the whole question? 

Let me ask it again. For a child born alive—born alive—a child 

born alive—that means breathing, moving around, born alive 

child—do you think that we should have some amendments to our 

Infants Born Alive Child Protection Act to require that 9-1-1 be 

called to provide a transfer to a hospital, this infant born alive, and 

provide criminal penalties, including prison time and fines, for 

those physicians or medical professionals who do not provide medically-appropriate and reasonable care to a born alive infant? 

Ms. SMITH. I think our law already protects born alive infants. 

Mr. FRANKS. So you are not going to answer the question. 

Ms. SMITH. I am answering your question. Calling 9-1-1 for a 13- 

week—— 

Mr. FRANKS. All right. Let me get more specific here then. If a 

child is born, let us say, at 5 months. We will be specific, 5 months. 

Ms. SMITH. Five months, okay. 
154 

Mr. FRANKS. Five months, and the child is born alive, should 

that child then be afforded protection after they are born alive? 

Ms. SMITH. Yes, because I think—— 

Mr. FRANKS. Okay, but not if it is 5 minutes earlier before they 

move—— 

Ms. SMITH. [continuing]. I think you are getting close to viability. 

Mr. FRANKS [continuing]. Down the birth canal, they are not afforded protection, correct? 

Ms. SMITH. Sorry? 

Mr. FRANKS. In other words, if they are born alive at 5 months, 

they deserve the protection, correct? That is what you just said. 

Ms. SMITH. If they are a viable fetus, yes, absolutely. 

Mr. FRANKS. No, you did not say that. You said that they should 

be protected if they are born alive. Now, if you have changed your 

mind, that is fine. You can tell us. 

Ms. SMITH. No, I did not change my mind. I think you are confusing me. So if it is born alive and you have a viable fetus, they 

deserve protection. Yes, they are protected under the—— 

Mr. FRANKS. But if they are born alive and somebody says—— 

Ms. SMITH. [continuing]. Born Alive Infant Protection Act. They 

are already protected. 

Mr. FRANKS [continuing]. Somebody arbitrarily says they are not 

viable, then they are not protectable. 

Ms. SMITH. If they are not viable, they will not survive, and so 

whether you have a Federal law to call 9-1-1 or not, I do not think 

will protect them. 

Mr. FRANKS. Well, how do you know if it is viable without medical professionals? I mean, how do you know? What is—— 

Ms. SMITH. Well, I am a doctor, but doctors know how to evaluate viability. 

Mr. FRANKS. So, but what you are saying is that the child that 

is born alive then is subject to whatever the doctor says, well, this 

child is viable, this child is not, so we will decide to let this one 

live, or we will transfer this one for medical care, but not this one. 

Ms. SMITH. Well, some fetuses are viable and some fetuses are 

not. 

Mr. FRANKS. See, that is the schizophrenia of all of this, Mrs. 

Smith, is that—Ms. Smith, I am sorry. 

Ms. SMITH. You should be asking a doctor the questions about 

how to determine viability protocol. 

Mr. FRANKS. Well, but my question to you—— 

Ms. SMITH. I am giving you the legal defense definition. 

Mr. FRANKS. My question to you—— 

Ms. SMITH. Yes? 

Mr. FRANKS. My question to you was if the child is born alive at 

5 months, should they be protected, and you are having difficulty 

answering that question, and I understand. I would have difficulty 

in your position, too. 

Ms. SMITH. Well, because 5 months, I am not sure how many 

weeks that is, and also it depends on whether the fetus is viable. 

Some fetuses are never viable. 

Mr. FRANKS. Right, whether they are alive or not is the issue. It 

is whether they are viable. I understand. I would like to understand. 
155 

Ms. SMITH. Some fetuses never are viable. At 30 weeks they cannot have a brain, they are not viable, they are not going to live. 

Would you provide aid and comfort? Yes, I think you do. 

Mr. FRANKS. Yes, providing—— 

Ms. SMITH. But that fetus is going to die. 

Mr. FRANKS. Provide appropriate and reasonable care. 

Ms. SMITH. Yes. 

Mr. FRANKS. That is what we should do. 

Ms. SMITH. Yes. 

Mr. FRANKS. All right. With that, I will now yield to Mr. King 

for 5 minutes. I apologize. I will recognize Mr. Johnson for 5 minutes. 

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. This hearing has 

all of the hallmarks of a Third World 4th rate Nation show trial. 

The objective of the hearing is to highlight for my friends on the 

other side of the aisle or to make the case for defunding Planned 

Parenthood. The reason being or the stated reason that they give 

it is an abortion provider, and it has got horrific things that it does 

to effectuate abortion. And so, therefore, we should have a 

defunding of Planned Parenthood. That is what this hearing is all 

about. 

I call it a ‘‘show trial’’ kind of hearing because the accuser is not 

present, the Center for Medical Progress. They are not present, neither is the accused, Planned Parenthood. And so, what we have at 

a crucial moment in the affairs of the Nation, we are coming up 

on September the 30th, which is the end of the Fiscal Year. We are 

not talking about funding government operations past September 

30th. We are talking about abortion and defunding Planned Parenthood instead. 

And we have got only 7 legislative days left in this month to put 

together a budget so that this country can continue to operate past 

September 30. And indeed we are careening toward a government 

shutdown on the issue that is being addressed here today, and it 

is a show trial. A lot of people are scoring political points. 

I will note that on this Committee, only one female on the other 

side of the aisle. That is pathetic. The voices that are being heard 

are male voices from the other side of the aisle that want to continue the attack on women’s reproductive health. That is what this 

is all about. It is nothing new. It is a continuation of a mission that 

the other side has been on since it has been in power here in Congress, and it is a shame that it is engaging in show trials. 

Let me ask this question, Mr. Bopp. Outside forensic investigators have determined that the released Center for Medical Progress 

videos have been heavily edited. Transcripts released from the Center for Medical Progress videos also include words and phrases 

omitted from the released videos. Mr. Bopp, were you involved in 

the production of these videos? 

Mr. BOPP. I am advised by the Committee staff that this is not 

the subject of this hearing. 

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, no, I am asking the question. Were you involved in the production of the CMP videos, yes or no? 

Mr. BOPP. If the Chairman permits me, I will answer the question. 
156 

Mr. FRANKS. If the gentleman would like to answer the question 

he can, but he is not obligated. 

Mr. BOPP. No. 

Mr. JOHNSON. You were not involved, and you were not present 

at the time these videos were being shot, were you? 

Mr. FRANKS. The gentleman is not obligated, but he is certainly 

welcome to answer the question. 

Mr. BOPP. No. 

Mr. JOHNSON. And you have not seen these videos in their unedited entirety, have you? 

Mr. BOPP. No. 

Mr. JOHNSON. And so, based on your answers, you are telling us 

that you are here to testify about a series of videos that you cannot 

confirm whether or not they were accurate or not. 

Mr. BOPP. Yes, and this is the old—— 

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes or no? 

Mr. BOPP. No, I am not answering ‘‘yes’’ or ‘‘no.’’ 

Mr. JOHNSON. You are not? Okay. 

Mr. BOPP. No, because I—— 

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I will tell you what then—— 

Mr. BOPP. This is the old—— 

Mr. JOHNSON [continuing]. If you do not want to answer the 

question, I have got questions for other—— 

Mr. BOPP. I said not ‘‘yes’’ or ‘‘no.’’ 

Mr. JOHNSON. I have got questions for other witnesses, so I am 

not going to argue with you. 

Mr. FRANKS. Let the witness answer the question—— 

Mr. BOPP. Do not trust your lying eyes, right, Congressman? 

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I mean, you are testifying, sir, to videos that 

you do not know whether or not they are accurate. 

Mr. BOPP. I have seen the videos. 

Mr. JOHNSON. You have seen the videos, but you have not seen 

the unedited videos, correct? 

Mr. BOPP. That is correct. 

Mr. JOHNSON. And so, therefore, you want this—— 

Mr. BOPP. And many of the statements—— 

Mr. JOHNSON. You want this Committee to accept your opinions 

about some edited videos that you—this is a show trial, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. BOPP. I am testifying based upon the video. 

Mr. JOHNSON. You are not testifying on unedited videos. You are 

testifying based on edited videos. 

Mr. FRANKS. Just for my clarity, has the gentleman seen all the 

unedited videos himself? 

Mr. JOHNSON. No, I have not. [Laughter.] 

Mr. BOPP. But, of course, he still tries—— 

Mr. JOHNSON. I have not even seen the edited videos, but my 

question to this witness is about his ability to come up here and 

testify in a way that people can accept his testimony with any 

credibility or not. And I would venture to conclude that your testimony is pretty worthless here. 

But let me ask you this question, Mr. Bopp. You are a strong 

proponent of the death penalty, are you not? 
157 

Mr. BOPP. I am a supporter of the death penalty in certain circumstances. 

Mr. JOHNSON. And what about you, Ms. Jessen? Do you support 

the death penalty also? 

Ms. Jessen: In certain circumstances. 

Mr. JOHNSON. Okay. And, Ms. Ohden, do you—— 

Ms. OHDEN. No, I am not. 

Mr. JOHNSON. You do not support the death penalty? 

Ms. OHDEN. No, I do not. 

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I gave you an A for consistency. 

Ms. OHDEN. Thank you. 

Mr. JOHNSON. You are welcome. And with that, I will yield back 

the balance of my time. 

Mr. FRANKS. I will now recognize the gentleman from Ohio—I 

am sorry—Iowa. Boy, I have got to get that right. Iowa, Mr. King. 

Mr. KING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank the witnesses 

for coming forward here today and delivering your testimony. And 

I know that sometimes reliving these things is a heavy burden, and 

I am always impressed when we have witnesses that can deliver 

that message from the head and the heart from direct experience. 

I was listening to the gentleman from Georgia, and some of this 

does not quite fit up with my world view you might not be surprised to learn. But I notice that, Ms. Smith, he did not ask you 

your position on the death penalty, so I would give you an opportunity to tell us. 

Ms. SMITH. I am against the death penalty. 

Mr. KING. You are opposed to the death. 

Ms. SMITH. Yes, I am. 

Mr. KING. Was it your earlier testimony, though, that dismemberment of babies is not necessarily an inhumane way for 

those babies to die? 

Ms. SMITH. You are using the word ‘‘baby.’’ My definition of 

‘‘baby’’ is a baby that is born. So if you are talking about fetuses, 

if you are talking about—— 

Mr. KING. But you acknowledge that testimony even though—— 

Ms. SMITH. I support D&E abortion—— 

Mr. KING. And you would not assert it is inhumane—— 

Ms. SMITH [continuing]. The safest procedure. 

Mr. KING [continuing]. To dismember this unborn baby. 

Ms. SMITH. I am sorry, say it again. 

Mr. KING. You would not assert that it is inhumane to dismember an unborn baby. 

Ms. SMITH. I would not say it that way. I would say it is not inhumane to perform a D&E abortion on a pre-viable fetus, absolutely. 

Mr. KING. A pre-viable fetus would be an unborn baby, would 

they not? We are back to that. 

Ms. SMITH. Well, I do not think—— 

Mr. KING. Excuse me. I will just stop this exchange because you 

went through this with Chairman Franks—— 

Ms. SMITH [continuing]. The disagreement we have, yeah. 

Mr. KING [continuing]. And I think we have resolved that. 

Ms. SMITH. That is a disagreement we have. 

Mr. KING. You have your language, and you are sticking to it. 
158 

Ms. SMITH. Yes. 

Mr. KING. And if anybody uses any other kind of term that describes it any differently, you would object to that. 

Ms. SMITH. No, I just want to know what you mean by it. If you 

tell me what you mean by it, I will answer it. 

Mr. KING. So let me ask you another question then since we have 

established where you are on this with many years of practice, and 

it is do you recall when it hit the news a few years ago that Red 

China, the Chinese, would bring criminals up on capital charges, 

and through due process, the Red Chinese due process, convict 

them of a capital crime, sentence them to execution, and on their 

way to execution, harvest their organs and use those organs in 

medical practices in China. Do you recall that? 

Ms. SMITH. No. 

Mr. KING. Well, it happened. 

Ms. SMITH. I believe you, but I was not—— 

Mr. KING. Okay. It does happen, and I recall that America was 

appalled by the idea that a heartless, barbaric civilization like the 

Red Chinese would sentence someone to death under their version 

of due process roll them through the operating room on the gurney 

and harvest their organs: their kidneys, their hearts, their livers, 

their pancreas, whatever it is that they thought they could utilize 

at the time. And that was, I will say, the harvest of the execution. 

We were appalled at the immorality of executing someone and 

harvesting their organs. Does that appall you, Ms. Smith? 

Ms. SMITH. Yes, absolutely. 

Mr. KING. Yeah, I thought it might, and it appalls me. 

Ms. SMITH. I am glad we agree. 

Mr. KING. But I wonder what the Chinese might think of the 

United States of America to be borrowing a half a billion dollars 

from the Chinese, send that money over to Planned Parenthood. 

That money that gets flowed through their system, ends up being 

utilized however Planned Parenthood decides, but we are helping 

to fund an organization that is dismembering babies, harvesting 

their organs, and selling those organs on the market. And we heard 

them negotiating for the price on the market, along with the methodologies that would be used in order to harvest more organs. 

Now, I wonder, and I would ask you, what do you think the Chinese think of us if we are critical of them for harvesting organs 

from someone who has gone through due process and sentenced to 

death? 

Ms. SMITH. I have no idea what the Chinese think of us, but I 

do think that the Supreme Court got it right when it recognized 

that the State has an interest in the developing and potential life 

of the fetus and growth with time. 

Mr. KING. I would agree with that, and my clock is running, so 

I appreciate you saying so. And I turn to Mr. Bopp and ask you 

that same question, Mr. Bopp. Have you heard of the practice in 

China of harvesting organs? Have you philosophically compared the 

two methodologies and what the Chinese might think of us? 

Mr. BOPP. Yes, I am familiar with those allegations, and, of 

course, the Chinese are using the same utilitarian calculation that 

the abortion advocates here are using to justify the abuses that 

have been documented regarding collection of fetal tissue such as 
159 

Professor Smith. Well, the person is not viable, so, therefore, you 

can kill it at will. Well, the prisoner convicted of a capital punishment on the way to being executed is clearly not viable. ‘‘Viable’’ 

means the ability for long-term survival. 

So in their calculation, the way they treat human beings or do 

not respect human beings, then it would be perfectly appropriate 

to do what the Chinese are doing. 

Mr. KING. If I could just tie this loop together, Mr. Chairman, is 

that the United States, at least virtually, the United States is virtually borrowing a half a billion dollars from China and funneling 

that money through to Planned Parenthood. The fungible budget of 

Planned Parenthood I will say is being used to commit abortion 

that are dismembering babies and selling their organs on the open 

market by the evidence we have seen before our very eyes. 

I do not need an investigation to understand what is going here. 

I hold those truths to be self-evident when I saw the video. And 

so, this Congress really, we are informing the public by this hearing, but the Justice Department needs to investigate and act, and 

if they see what I have seen by watching the videos, I believe that 

brings about prosecutions and eventually convictions. And I call 

upon the Justice Department, do your job. 

You have testified here before this Committee that you are independent branch of the government that is not directed by the President. The President stood on the floor of the Illinois State Senate 

and said a woman who wants an abortion has a right to a dead 

baby. I am saying there is nobody in this United States of America 

that should be compelled to pay taxes that are going to pay the interest on the debt to China so that something like this can happen. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back. 

Mr. FRANKS. And I thank the gentleman, and I would now recognize Ms. Chu for 5 minutes. 

Ms. CHU. Mr. Chair, I am outraged by the sensational nature of 

this hearing that makes no pretense of being fair or impartial. And 

I am outraged by the accusations made against an organization 

that serves millions of women in our country. In fact, 1 in 5 American women visit Planned Parenthood center for healthcare at some 

point in their lives. For some it is the only place that they can turn 

to for even the most basic of care. 

When our economy fell into tough times a few years ago, women, 

especially low-income women, turned to Planned Parenthood for affordable and dependable primary care services. They fill a vital gap 

that community health centers cannot fill by themselves. The local 

affiliate in my district, Planned Parenthood Pasadena in San Gabriel Valley, was one of the targets of these videos. The Center for 

Medical Progress tried to discredit them with their heavily edited 

videos. 

These five short videos, the ones that have been released by 

CMP, have at least 47 splices where content is edited out, but the 

conversation appears to be seamless. Critical context is omitted, including Planned Parenthood staff members repeatedly saying that 

there is no profit from tissue donation and should not be, that tissue donation programs must follow the law, and that substantial 

changes to medical procedures would not occur. 
160 

And we know from the longer version of the first video that Dr. 

Nucatola said at least 10 times that Planned Parenthood affiliates 

do not profit from fetal tissue donation, making statements such 

as, ‘‘Affiliates are not looking to make money by doing this. They’re 

looking to serve their patients and just make it not impact their 

bottom line.’’ Yet none of the highly relevant and exculpatory passages were included in the edited versions’ excerpts that CMP initially released to the national media. 

And yet, my four affiliates in my local area served over 27,000 

women last year alone and saw over 51,500 patients. They did 

thousands of well women exams, breast exams, tests to determine 

sexually transmitted diseases, and cervical cancer screenings. By 

doing this, they saved lives. The leading questions in these videos 

do not lead to these numbers. Instead, the questions lead to a discussion about a legal fetal tissue donation program that affiliates 

do not even participate in for the most part. And so, along with my 

constituents, I am calling out these videos for what they are, the 

latest attacks on women’s access to reproductive healthcare. 

Now, Republicans are saying that we do not want to see the videos, but the truth is the opposite. We want to see the whole video, 

not a selectively edited version. And, in fact, that is why I along 

with 11 of my colleagues sent a letter to Chairman Goodlatte today 

saying that the full footage must be made available to us and the 

public. Only then can there be a fair and complete investigation. 

And, in fact, without the full unedited source footage, it is impossible for there to be a thorough and transparent congressional investigation. 

And so, Professor Smith. 

Ms. SMITH. Yes? 

Ms. CHU. Would videos like these have any evidentiary value? In 

other words, should we rely on these videos in our own investigations? And do you believe that the public would benefit from CMP 

releasing the full footage? 

Ms. SMITH. Absolutely. I think CMP should be required to release the full footage. The edited versions would not have evidentiary value precisely for the reasons you have stated because 

words are taken out of context and placed over each other, out of 

time, the way sometimes world leaders are made to appear to be 

singing pop songs. It is that kind of technique that is used on the 

internet quite often, and it is used here in these videos. And it is 

just as unreliable. 

Ms. CHU. And, Professor Smith, you talked about that research 

panel that determined the ethics of fetal tissue donation, that 21 

people were appointed to this commission and support the idea of 

fetal research. Can you speak about some of the safeguards that 

the commission and what lawmakers put in place to ensure no 

wrongdoing, and do you believe these safeguards are working? 

Ms. SMITH. Yes, I do. As far as I can tell, the safeguards appear 

to be working. The fetal tissue is not allowed to be sold. Women 

have consented to the abortion separately from the consent to donate tissue, so the incentive for the main actors in these situations, 

it is not pushing abortion in any way. It is not manipulating people 

or coercing their choice. And those are all the things and factors 

that I would hope would be in place. 
161 

To the extent the Committee continues to have concerns about 

that and the public continues to have concerns about whether this 

is being implemented properly, I think the appropriate response is 

another commission to address the issues and to investigate the 

issue. 

Ms. CHU. Thank you. Mr. Chair, I would like to enter into the 

record two letters. The first is a letter from 11 Latino organizations 

in support of Planned Parenthood of America. The second is a letter from Planned Parenthood to the National Institutes of Health 

on fetal tissue donation and medical research. 

Mr. FRANKS. Without objection. 

[The information referred to follows:] 
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Mr. CICILLINE. Mr. Chairman, a parliamentary inquiry? 

Mr. FRANKS. The gentleman will state his inquiry. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Mr. Chairman, I would like to know whether or 

not the majority is currently in possession of the unedited videos 

that are at issue in this hearing. 

Mr. FRANKS. I was going to address that. The unedited full footage of these videos is online, and all you have to do—is that incorrect? The CMP has stated that they released it online weeks ago. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Mr. Chairman—— 

Mr. FRANKS. And so, the point is I would only hope that my 

friends on the minority would actually look at them. 

Mr. CICILLINE. No, Mr. Chairman, I believe those are the edited 

versions of these videos. 

Ms. SMITH. There are two things. There are short videos that are 

heavily edited, and then there are what the CMP has called full 

footage videos which themselves have also been edited. This is in 

the forensic analysis report that was submitted to the Committee. 

So nobody that we know of has seen the actual full footage videos. 

There is a short version and a long version. 

Mr. CICILLINE. That is my point of parliamentary inquiry, Mr. 

Chairman, that the majority on this Committee is, in fact, in possession of the full unedited videos that are at issue in this hearing. 

Mr. FRANKS. The answer is, no, that we are not. But I would suggest to you that we are in possession of enough of it to indicate 

that living human viable babies are being murdered at Planned 

Parenthood, and their body parts are being harvested. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Point of parliamentary inquiry, Mr. Chairman? 

Point of parliamentary inquiry? 

Mr. FRANKS. One more. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Has the majority received videos from this organization? 

Mr. FRANKS. We have looked at the ones available to everyone 

else online. We have not received anything directly from the organization. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Point of parliamentary inquiry. Has the majority—— 

Mr. FRANKS. I am going to move on, sir. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Has the majority communicated with this organization and sought copies of unedited versions of these videos? 

Mr. FRANKS. The answer is that we have not received any additional footage from CMP, and with that I am going to move on. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Mr. Chairman, that was not my inquiry. My parliamentary inquiry is whether or not the majority—— 

Mr. FRANKS. I recognize the gentleman from Texas for 5 minutes. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Point of parliamentary inquiry. Mr. Chairman, 

my inquiry is has the majority communicated with CMP in an effort to obtain copies of unedited videos or in connection with the 

ongoing investigation of CMP with respect to these videos. 

Mr. FRANKS. They are not in Committee records at this time, and 

we have made no formal request for that. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. FRANKS. And with that, I will recognize the gentleman from 

Texas for 5 minutes for his questions. 
169 

Mr. POE. I thank the Chairman. It seems to me this hearing is 

not whether there is a crime that has been committed or not. That 

is a, I think, a decision for the Department of Justice to determine 

later, even though my friend from Georgia acted as a defense lawyer defending someone that has not been charged in his entire 

questioning. The issue is whether or not taxpayers should fund 

Planned Parenthood. That is the issue that is before this Committee today. This is just my opinion, the name is sort of interesting, ‘‘Planned Parenthood.’’ Maybe it should be ‘‘planned nonparenthood’’ as opposed to ‘‘Planned Parenthood,’’ but that is just 

my personal opinion. 

We talk about women and all of this. I am going to ask the ladies 

on the far left and the far right at the table, and maybe Ms. Smith 

in the middle, some questions. Ms. Ohden, just your opinion, is 

there any reason taxpayers should fund Planned Parenthood? Are 

there other options where women can receive women’s healthcare? 

Ms. OHDEN. Correct. I do not have the statistics right in front of 

me, but your own State is funding women’s health at a higher level 

at the State level. I was reading something yesterday that there is 

more funding than there had been in the past. Despite the restrictions that have been placed on abortion facilities through different 

measures. 

So I think that is a great example that we know that the State 

of Texas is still funding women’s health services at an all-time high 

level. I apologize that I do not have that specific information, but 

I was just reading it on the plane last night. 

And I have to just say as a woman who survived an abortion, 

there is something wrong when healthcare, and women’s needs, 

and women’s empowerment is based on someone’s life ending. 

Ms. JESSEN. Absolutely. 

Mr. POE. Thank you. My understanding is there is 732 federallyqualified health centers in Texas, and there are 38 Planned Parenthood centers in Texas. The issue about the videos and was it edited, and was it not edited, that seems to be the discussion in Congress on multiple things. Do we have the full video? Do we have 

all of the emails? Do we have the side deals with the Iranian nuclear agreement? We always seem to be missing something when 

we want to make a decision. And here we are wanting the full videos. I think that will all play out. 

But the issue is whether or not there should be Federal funds for 

Planned Non-Parenthood. Ms. Jessen. Is it Jessen? 

Ms. JESSEN. Yes. 

Mr. POE. Tell me a little bit about your knowledge of Planned 

Parenthood, I mean, based on your background and your life experiences. You do not have to go into those, but Margaret Sanger, or 

Planned Parenthood, what do you know about them? 

Ms. JESSEN. Well, my biological mother went to a Planned Parenthood, and they advised her to have a saline abortion. So 

Planned Parenthood has had an enormous impact on my life. I 

have the gift of cerebral palsy as the direct result of a lack of oxygen to my brain from that procedure. 

Margaret Sanger was quite an individual. She said, if I may—— 

Mr. POE. You may. 
170 

Ms. JESSEN [continuing]. Reread this quote that I quoted her earlier. She said, ‘‘The most merciful thing that a large family does to 

one of its infant members is to kill it,’’ and that is the woman that 

began this organization. 

Mr. POE. Do you have a problem with statues of her in different 

prominent places in America? 

Ms. JESSEN. A little bit, yeah. 

Mr. POE. I mean, do you or not? 

Ms. JESSEN. Yes. 

Mr. POE. Do you think that, just your opinion based on your life 

experiences, and I value you a great deal. 

Ms. JESSEN. Thank you. 

Mr. POE. Do you think that the taxpayers should fund Planned 

Parenthood, an organization that does harvest, if we can use the 

term, body parts of the unborn? 

Ms. JESSEN. Absolutely not. 

Mr. POE. Okay. Well, my time has expired, and I will yield back 

the balance of my time. 

Mr. FRANKS. And I thank the gentleman. I now recognize Ms. 

Lofgren for 5 minutes. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My apologies for having to step out. I chair the California Democratic delegation, and 

we had the Secretary of Labor meeting with us, and I had to go 

over for 50 minutes to deal with that. However, I had the benefit 

of reading all the testimony and, of course, hearing the testimony 

this morning. 

And really it seems to me that there are a lot of distortions in 

terms of how we are approaching this issue. The real agenda here 

is pretty obvious, which is to try and outlaw or eliminate abortion 

in the United States. That is a right that women have under the 

Constitution, at least in the first trimester. And I think this is a 

thinly-veiled attack on that right that women have. 

Now, Ms. Smith, you are at the law school. You have analyzed 

all of this stuff. I have got a list of the services that are provided 

by Planned Parenthood in my State in California, 117 centers, just 

over 800,000 patients that could not be absorbed by the other clinics at all. None of the abortion services are funded by the Federal 

Government. It is only these other services—contraception, sexually transmitted disease treatment, pap smears, breast exams, and 

even sex education and outreach. 

I am just wondering what the impact would be, if you have had 

a chance to look at California’s impact. If these centers were 

defunded, what would happen to their patients? 

Ms. SMITH. Thank you for the question. Yeah, I do not have the 

exact numbers, but what I know is that, and I think this is the terrible irony of this hearing and this idea of defunding Planned Parenthood is that if you defund the important non-abortion related 

services that the government funds around this country, and particularly in California, what would end up happening is there 

would be a significant increase in the number of unintended pregnancies, and, therefore, also an increase in the number of abortions 

that would occur. Now, that is just the impact on abortion rates 

alone. 
171 

We are also talking the ability of women, particularly low-income 

women, to obtain high quality services, services that simply cannot 

be absorbed by State community health centers, as has been suggested. We are talking about wellness exams, cancer screenings, 

pap smears, STD testing, all kinds of services. 

So Planned Parenthood has become so popular not because it 

provides abortions, but because it provides a wide range of services 

that women and men need to stay healthy. And it does so at reasonable costs, and with very high quality. And that is why I support Planned Parenthood, and that is why a vast majority of the 

American people do as well. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Well, in my community, Planned Parenthood not 

only provides birth control and cancer screening and the like, but 

they provide pediatric care. It is a whole family. It is not just 

women coming in. It is women and their children—— 

Ms. SMITH. And their children. 

Ms. LOFGREN [continuing]. That are getting immunizations and 

getting, you know—— 

Ms. SMITH. Yes. And, in fact, that is—— 

Ms. LOFGREN [continuing]. Pediatric care. 

Ms. SMITH [continuing]. An important point, which is that the 

name ‘‘Planned Parenthood’’ I would disagree with the Member before. The name ‘‘Planned Parenthood’’ is indeed very apt because 

Planned Parenthood is about helping people plan their families, 

plan when they are going to have their families, and take care of 

their families to the best of their ability. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Just a final question. There has been talk of shutting the government down and that then would somehow stop 

Planned Parenthood. What would happen to funding for Planned 

Parenthood if we had a government shutdown at the end of this 

month? 

Ms. SMITH. Well, because I am not an official at Planned Parenthood, I do know what would happen exactly with their funding 

stream when they get Federal funding—— 

Ms. LOFGREN. It is mainly Medicaid funding. 

Ms. SMITH [continuing]. And when it would come in. So Medicaid 

recipients would not be covered, I assume, for their services and for 

their healthcare needs, and would be unable to go to Planned Parenthood clinics. And women would go without necessary, and their 

children, would go without necessary healthcare. 

Ms. LOFGREN. But it would not defund abortion because there is 

no Federal money going into abortion. 

Ms. SMITH. No. No, it would not defund abortion. This question 

about fungibility of money I think is quite ironic also. Under Federal law, we do not consider money fungible in this way because 

it really does not apply. It does not move from one sphere to another. 

For example, in our religious freedom cases, we allow the funding of secular services at faith-based organizations, and we do that, 

and we say it is not an establishment clause violation because the 

money that goes to religious activities at those same organizations 

is separately funded. So we recognize the ability, and we can keep 

those things separate in our head in that context. I think we 
172 

should be able to keep those separate here as well because they are 

separate in reality. 

Ms. LOFGREN. My time has expired. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. FRANKS. And I thank the gentlelady, and I will now recognize Mr. Gowdy for 5 minutes. 

Mr. GOWDY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Bopp, can you describe the process of a partial birth abortion so people will have a 

better understanding of why it might have been banned, and they 

may actually have a better understanding of why Professor Smith 

would have argued against that ban. 

Mr. BOPP. Yes. A partial birth abortion, as defined under Federal 

law, is where a physician partially delivers, usually the trunk and 

legs, of the baby, leaving only the head in the birth canal, and the 

baby is alive. And then takes an act to kill the baby at that point, 

usually thrusting scissors into the back of the skull in order to kill 

the baby, and then completes the delivery. 

So it is a way of killing the baby when most of the baby is already outside of the womb. 

Mr. GOWDY. And there are actually people who argued against 

banning that barbaric practice? 

Mr. BOPP. Oh, yes. I mean, many of the people we have been 

hearing from today were big advocates for a continuation of partial 

birth abortions. They have no respect for human life if they consider it to be unborn, or they want to label it as a ‘‘fetus.’’ And literally anything is all right as far as they seem to be concerned. 

Mr. GOWDY. Well, let us go to that point because Professor Smith 

seems to draw a line, artificial as it may be, between the humanity 

owed to a viable fetus and the lack of humanity owed to what she 

considers to be a non-viable fetus. Who gets to draw that line of 

demarcation between viability and non-viability? 

Mr. BOPP. Well, that is a complex question. Number one, it is a 

medical determination on whether or not a child is viable, but it 

is a difficult one, and there are many gray areas. For instance, the 

statistics are after 20 weeks, 1 in 4 can survive. And we would consider that to mean, therefore, that anyone born at that point in 

time ought to be considered viable. 

But many times you just simply do not know until later. And I 

have not heard any people that work at abortion clinics who are 

able to make that kind of complex medical decision. 

Mr. GOWDY. No, I think Professor Smith, if I heard her correctly, 

said that she was not a doctor, and it should be up to the doctors 

to make that determination, although I did note the irony it was 

9 damn lawyers who came up with that plan, not a one of whom 

was a doctor. And I also noted the irony of Hank Johnson wondering why there were not more women on our side of the aisle 

when they tend to target to seek office as Republican women. And 

there was not a single woman on the Court when Roe v. Wade was 

decided, but that does not seem to trouble him much either. 

For those watching at home or here, does civil law not recognize 

the viability of even a pre-viable fetus when it comes time for the 

plaintiff’s attorney to get paid? 

Mr. BOPP. There are many instances of cases in various states 

of wrongful death of the unborn, of criminal laws to punish—— 
173 

Mr. GOWDY. Well, we are going to get to criminal law in a second. Let us just stick civil right now. 

Mr. BOPP. Okay. 

Mr. GOWDY. Now, when it comes time for the trial attorney to 

get paid, we have a different definition of ‘‘viability,’’ right? 

Mr. BOPP. Well, viability is simply not relevant. 

Mr. GOWDY. Exactly. You can be 2 weeks pregnant and you have 

a cause of action on behalf of that unborn child. 

Mr. BOPP. That is correct. 

Mr. GOWDY. And our friends on the other side of the aisle, some 

of whom were plaintiffs’ attorneys, have no trouble being paid for 

the life of that 2-week-old. 

Mr. BOPP. Right. The idea of using viability as a standard is really antiquated, and most courts have gone away from that to just 

simply the point that if the child is alive. 

Mr. GOWDY. But it is hard to go away from viability when Professor Smith said there is not any humanity owed a pre-viable, she 

will not say, baby, pre-viable fetus. 

Mr. BOPP. That is exactly—— 

Mr. GOWDY. Did I misunderstand her? Is there any degree of humanity owed? 

Mr. BOPP. Well—— 

Mr. GOWDY. You have been sitting beside her all morning. Did 

I miss something? Is there something outside the bounds of decency that we really will not allow as long as the fetus is pre-viable? 

Mr. BOPP. Well, as I understand her testimony, if the born alive 

infant is considered to be not viable, then we have a free fire zone. 

We can do whatever we want. We can kill the baby at will, harvest 

their tissues, whatever the case may be. And, of course, the concern 

about producing intact infants, which has been demonstrated in 

the videos, is, of course, the possibility that these unborn children 

are alive. And there is even evidence that one of the intact babies 

born alive had a beating heart, which is a definition of being alive. 

Mr. GOWDY. Which is why the videos are relevant to our conversation about partial birth abortions. Mr. Chairman, I am out of 

time. I just have two really quick questions for Ms. Smith, which 

she can answer with a ‘‘yes’’ or ‘‘no.’’ 

Ms. Smith, if we were to double the amount of money available 

to the providers, but give it to someone not named ‘‘Planned Parenthood,’’ would you be okay with that? 

Ms. SMITH. I would have to know who it was going to and whether they were qualified—— 

Mr. GOWDY. Anyone not named ‘‘Planned Parenthood.’’ 

Ms. SMITH. Not ‘‘anyone,’’ no. 

Mr. GOWDY. Anyone who is qualified to provide services. 

Ms. SMITH. If they provide high quality services to low-income 

people in the same way that Planned Parenthood does, frankly, 

yes, I do not have any—— 

Mr. GOWDY. So you are okay with us defunding Planned Parenthood as long as the money goes somewhere where it can do the 

most amount of good for the same group of people. You are okay 

with Congress defunding Planned Parenthood. 
174 

Ms. SMITH. Not in the current environment where there is no 

one—— 

Mr. GOWDY. And if there were, would you be okay with it? 

Ms. SMITH. If there were, yeah, it would be a different world, 

then, yes, then you could fund that organization—— 

Mr. GOWDY. So if we can identify—— 

Ms. SMITH [continuing]. To do those services. 

Mr. GOWDY [continuing]. Service providers that meet that same 

quality of care not named Planned Parenthood, you will support 

the Republicans in defunding Planned Parenthood. 

Ms. SMITH. I do not know that you and I will agree on who those 

people are, and I would have to know who they are. 

Mr. GOWDY. How about we just try? 

Ms. SMITH. Theoretically—— 

Mr. GOWDY. Why do we not do that? 

Ms. SMITH. If you are asking me a hypothetical question there 

was—— 

Mr. GOWDY. Yeah, I will double the money as long as it does not 

go to the folks who donate money to Democrats, Planned Parenthood. We will double the amount of money available as long as it 

does not go to Planned Parenthood. How is that? 

Ms. SMITH. ‘‘As long as it does not go to Planned Parenthood?’’ 

Planned Parenthood today is the institution that provides the best, 

highest quality care to women in this country across this Nation, 

in cities, in low-income areas where these services are unavailable 

to them otherwise. 

Mr. GOWDY. They are also the target of videos that are barbaric, 

and heinous, and subhuman. 

Ms. SMITH. They are—— 

Mr. GOWDY. So as long as we can get that same level of care and 

do it through an entity not named Planned Parenthood—— 

Ms. SMITH. They abortions at a very small part of their services, 

and this is why you oppose them, and that is the only reason you 

oppose them. 

Mr. GOWDY. You have no idea why. I was voting to defund 

Planned Parenthood, with all due respect, Professor, before the videos ever showed up. 

Ms. SMITH. I was not talking about the videos. 

Mr. GOWDY. Well, I do not think we know each other well enough 

for you to assign a motive to what I am doing—— 

Ms. SMITH. Probably not. 

Mr. GOWDY [continuing]. I do not think. 

Ms. SMITH. Vice versa. And vice versa. 

Mr. GOWDY. I yield back. 

Mr. FRANKS. I thank the gentleman. I thank the gentleman. Just 

to clarify, Ms. Smith, you said earlier that in order to determine 

whether an unborn child is viable, one would need to ask a doctor. 

And so, consequently, would you support a requirement that when 

an unborn child is born alive, that the child be transported to a 

hospital so that it can survive if it is viable. 

Ms. SMITH. If it is viable, if it is born alive? 

Mr. FRANKS. No, I am saying so that it can be transported to a 

hospital where medical—— 

Ms. LOFGREN. Mr. Chairman? 
175 

Mr. FRANKS [continuing]. Where medical doctors can ascertain if 

it is viable. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Mr. Chairman, is there an intent to have a second 

round of questions since you are engaging in a second round? 

Mr. FRANKS. I will move on. Can you answer the question? 

Ms. SMITH. I would have to see the bill, so I am not prepared to 

support or not support. 

Mr. FRANKS. I will recognize, Mr. Gutierrez, I believe you are 

next in line. 

Mr. GUTIERREZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me just first say 

I thank all of the men and women that work at Planned Parenthood. I thank them for the incredible service that they offer millions of women who would otherwise go without the kind of kind, 

considerate, compassionate, understanding service that I believe 

that women in this country need, and that is not being offered in 

other venues. 

I thank them because just this last year, there are 500,000 fewer 

pregnancies. That is a way to stop abortion. This should not be a 

question of who is for abortion, who is against. Everybody is 

against abortion, but how do you stop abortions? How do you allow 

everyone to live in the 21st century? How do you allow women to 

live freely in the 21st century if they are not charge of their reproductive system? I think that is key. 

And I think part of what is going on here is that Planned Parenthood has a direct association with the pill, with contraception, and 

that fight continues to go on. We should not have that fight. The 

vast majority of women in America and across the world that have 

access take birth control. I am certainly not going to judge my wife. 

We have two beautiful daughters. They are 8 years apart. Why? 

Because we had access to birth control. We had access to birth control so that we could determine when it was we were going to have 

children and we could raise those children. We could raise those 

children to be productive citizens of our society. 

When you show me that Planned Parenthood actually was selling 

body parts, then we are going to have a conversation about the future of Planned Parenthood. Nobody is showing that. And let us 

make it very, very clear. Medical advances, and vaccines for polio, 

measles, rubella, vaccines against drugs and neurological disorders, 

immune deficiencies, cancer, Parkinson’s. We need to continue to 

have medical research, and part of that medical research is because 

there is the ability to access the fetal tissues, and that there is not 

profitability in it, and nobody has shown there is profitability in it. 

But there needs to be a way that we have medical research in this 

country. 

And so, I just want to say thank you to all of the women, and 

the men, and all of those that labor in our healthcare delivery system across this country, and especially those who would provide 

that to women. 

80 percent of the clients who receive birth control services, that 

is 516,000 unintended pregnancies annually. I want you to think 

about that, and I want you to think about the estimated 1 out of 

5 women in the United States has visited a Planned Parenthood 

health center at least once in her life. 20 percent of the women in 
176 

this country. Of course, some people do not want them to visit 

there anymore. 

And I also want to talk just a little bit about the fact that as 

much as we try to have universal healthcare, we still do not have 

universal healthcare unfortunately in this country. And so, I just 

want to talk just a little bit, I am not for abortion. Do I honk if 

I see a sign that says ‘‘honk if you are for choice?’’ Yeah, I do honk. 

We have been very lucky and very fortunate in my family and in 

my own personal experience, even when we were pretty poor, to 

have access to healthcare for my wife, because there were people 

out there that were giving that kind of access. 

And I want to end not by trying to have, I mean, to kind of say 

that we are for Planned Parenthood because we receive money, I 

think it is a little just under the belt. This is really about women 

and about what is the law. So just two last points. 

There seems to be a question here of morality, and I just want 

to say that, look, when you have Members of the House of Representatives proposing DOMA that have been divorced four times, 

I think we might want to question their knowledge or their sincerity about marriage. Of course, that was overturned by the Supreme Court. When we have clerks that are married once, twice, 

three, and then all of a sudden get religious and say, well, I am 

not going to give a marriage certificate to those two men or those 

two women because it is a case of morality, maybe I might want 

to question people’s morality. 

But in the end, what you cannot question is this Congressman’s 

right to defend his two daughters’ rights. I raised them. I gave 

them the best I could, and I trust them. And I am going to protect 

their right and the right of every other woman to make decisions 

about their reproductive systems with their conscience. I raised 

them. I gave them the best values and the best I could do, and I 

need to respect them now. 

And I just wish that in this society we would have a system that 

respected all women and the kinds of decisions that they have to 

make every day. Every day they have to make decisions. And I do 

not think we are in a position to judge them, and I am certainly 

not going to allow others to promote legislation or to promote situations that put that in jeopardy. 

Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. FRANKS. I now recognize Mr. Labrador for 5 minutes. 

Mr. LABRADOR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and, in fact, I am 

really grateful for the words of morality that we just heard from 

my good friend, Luis Gutierrez because this is an issue of morality. 

This is why we are here today. 

I want to begin by making it clear that to me it is not an issue 

simply of whether Planned Parenthood broke the law by selling 

fetal body parts obtained through abortion. In fact, I do not know 

if we are ever going to be able to answer that question whether it 

was illegal for them to do what they were doing. The real tragedy 

is that we are confronted today with is that human beings have 

been reduced to mere commodities in this practice, and Federal dollars are contributing to it. And I think that is immoral. 

I do not want to contribute to a system that profits from someone’s fate, nor do I want to subject millions of taxpayers to sup-
177 

porting this violation of life. It is often a temptation to boil this argument down to medical terms and ignore the real losses our Nation faces when we choose to reject someone before he or she has 

been given a chance to live, like these two beautiful women who 

are here today with us and who have testified so eloquently. 

I commend both Ms. Jessen and Ms. Ohden for their courage to 

come before this Committee as living expressions of life’s potential. 

I am certain that life has not always been easy for them, but I am 

incredibly grateful that you were given the opportunity to live, and 

that you are choosing to spend time with us today. 

I, too, could be said to be a survivor of abortion. My mother, God 

rest her soul, passed away 10 years ago this month. I love her, and 

I love her most of all because at the time of her pregnancy when 

she was a single mom, she was encouraged by people like Ms. 

Smith and others to abort me. She was told that the only way she 

was going to have a life, a good life, was making sure that she did 

not have this child. 

And she did a make personal choice, a choice that should be respected. She made the choice to give me life, but not to just give 

me life, but to give me a good life; to raise me to the best of my 

ability to become the best that I could do. She made a deal with 

her God that if she was going to have this child, she was going to 

do everything in her power to make sure that this child had a good 

life. Even though she was a single mom, she did not have any 

money, she did not have much in her life, she was going to give 

me the best opportunities and everything else available to me. 

And when we talk about this in scientific terms, we forget that 

we are talking about children. We are talking about human life. 

We are talking about people who have a God-given potential to be 

the best that they can be and to be everything that they can be. 

So I hope we do not forget that. 

And when I watched those videos, I have to admit that I could 

only watch two of them. I think there are seven or eight of them. 

I could not watch after the second one because I was sickened to 

my core. To me it was immoral. I do not know if it is illegal, Ms. 

Smith, but it was immoral what I was seeing on that video. 

We can have a discussion whether at some point there should be 

abortions. You and I will disagree on that discussion. But I can tell 

you that at that point when those videos were showing that abortion, this Nation should really step back and decide whether we are 

a moral Nation or an immoral Nation; whether we are willing to 

allow that to happen or not. 

So I have a few questions for you, Ms. Smith. You emphasized 

that Federal funding for Planned Parenthood is not used for abortion, yet you go on to say that defunding Planned Parenthood 

would ultimate lead to an increase in abortions. Explain to me why 

you only associate abortion with Planned Parenthood in the case of 

defunding Planned Parenthood, but fail to recognize the connection 

the Federal Government actively contributes money to Planned 

Parenthood. 

Ms. SMITH. What I was saying was that if you defund Planned 

Parenthood, you defund their contraceptive services and the care 

that they provide to women who are—— 
178 

Mr. LABRADOR. So as Mr. Gowdy said, if we gave that money to 

other community health organizations, would that be okay? 

Ms. SMITH. If there were community health organizations that 

provided as high quality care as Planned Parenthood—— 

Mr. LABRADOR. Do you think the only community health organization in America that can provide this high-quality care is 

Planned Parenthood? 

Ms. SMITH. Currently, it is definitely the highest quality care 

available, yes. 

Mr. LABRADOR. Well, you are saying ‘‘the highest,’’ but are they 

the only? There are other community health organizations that can 

do that. 

Ms. SMITH. There are definitely community health centers. There 

is a reason people do not go to them and people go to Planned Parenthood. It is because the care is better. 

Mr. LABRADOR. Mr. Bopp, you have elaborated about the potential legal violations that Planned Parenthood may face. However, 

even it is found that Planned Parenthood did not violate any laws, 

what justification remains for using taxpayer dollars to fund their 

practices? 

Mr. BOPP. I am sorry, the question again, sir? 

Mr. LABRADOR. You have elaborated on whether Planned Parenthood potentially violated the law. Even if they did not violate the 

law, is there any justification to continue to fund their practices? 

Mr. BOPP. Is there any justification to continue to fund Planned 

Parenthood? No. The reason there is no justification is that even 

if the current laws are not violated, they clearly are committing 

abuses and violating moral and ethical principles, and violating the 

safeguards. As wrong as the NIH panel was about recommending 

this research, at least they talked about and proposed safeguards, 

like no financial incentives. 

When the laws got passed, it was passed by people that wanted 

to facilitate. The law was written by people who wanted to facilitate fetal tissue procurement from aborted fetuses, and, frankly, 

went beyond what the panel would have limited it to. 

So it could very well be that the current laws need to be adjusted 

in order to provide, one, effective protection against these financial 

incentives, and, two, by providing the necessary protection for infants born alive, which we have a witness right here before this 

Committee speaking for the abortion industry that says they are in 

a free fire zone if they are not viable. 

Mr. LABRADOR. Thank you. I yield back my time. 

Mr. FRANKS. I thank the gentleman, and I will recognize Mr. 

Deutch for 5 minutes. 

Mr. DEUTCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Today marks the first 

hearing of the full House Judiciary Committee after a lengthy August recess. How fitting it is that it be devoted to a bogus and politically-motivated attack on women’s healthcare and on those who 

provide it. 

Let us be clear. The entire premise of today’s hearing is based 

on viral videos that have been dissected, debunked, and discredited. For 3 years, anti-abortion activist fraudulently cast themselves as biomedical researchers. Their goal: to find a gotcha moment that catches staff affiliated with Planned Parenthood break-
179 

ing the law, and after 3 years of deception they have failed to find 

it. 

So what do these extremists do? They heavily edited footage to 

smear Planned Parenthood, a non-profit healthcare provider that 

serves over 2.7 million Americans every year as some sort of forprofit enterprise engaged in a preposterous black market of fetal 

tissue. Conveniently scrubbed out of the parts where staff says that 

no one should sell fetal tissue, and their goal is to cover the costs 

of the donation process. In short, these videos are heavily edited 

and intended to deceive. 

So why are we here? We have already learned that Planned Parenthood did not engage in any wrongdoing. They only do fetal tissue donation in a handful of states; that fetal tissue research was 

consensually obtained through legal abortion, was legalized by Congress in 1993 with bipartisan support; that Planned Parenthood’s 

goal is to fulfill the wishes of those patients who decide to donate 

fetal tissue to science, and perhaps—perhaps—contribute to research that may someday yield cures to Alzheimer’s, and blindness, 

muscular dystrophy, and so many other ills. 

So fetal tissue research is legal. Family planning is legal. And as 

much as some of our witnesses today like to pretend otherwise, 

abortion is legal. Yet here we are. This deception has led Congress 

to hold the first of apparently several hearings. This deception has 

led presidential candidates to pledge to defund Planned Parenthood, a provider that 1 in 5 American women relies on in their lifetime. 

Well, guess what? No Federal funding goes to abortion, so when 

you defund Planned Parenthood, you are just defunding the over 

97 percent of what they do that is not abortion, meaning you 

defund pregnancy tests. You defund birth control. You defund 

screenings for breast cancer, and cervical cancer, and ovarian cancer. You defund vaccinations, you defund access to referrals to 

other hospital and specialists, and you deny prenatal care. 

So what happens when you defund Planned Parenthood, a provider that serves over 2.7 million Americans? You defund access to 

healthcare that has nothing—nothing—to do with abortion. 

Now, let me correct the record here. Planned Parenthood does 

spend Federal funding on birth control that prevents unwanted 

pregnancies that may lead to abortion. Indeed, in 2013 alone, Title 

10 sites like Planned Parenthood helped prevent 1 million unintended pregnancies, which statistically would have likely led to 

over 300,000 more abortions that year. 

I honestly do not know why we are here today, but here is what 

I do know. I know that not a single one of the men sitting on this 

dais today ever had to cap a sentence about their educational goals, 

or their career plans, or their financial aspirations with the phrase, 

‘‘unless I get pregnant.’’ 

I know that Federal law already prohibits Planned Parenthood 

from using any tax dollars on abortion-related care. Frankly, I 

think all women should have access to legal abortion regardless of 

their financial means. And I know that this movement to defund 

Planned Parenthood is not just an attack on the constitutional 

right to a safe legal abortion. It is an attack on the entire concept 

of reproductive justice, which is the idea that all women, regardless 
180 

of their race, or sexual orientation, or economic background, have 

the right to education about sexual health and the right to manage 

their reproductive health; that they have the right to delay childbearing until they are ready to become mothers, that this right to 

control their fertility gives them a better shot at controlling their 

own destinies. 

Today’s hearing, Mr. Chairman, is an attack on the autonomy 

and, therefore, on the dignity of women. I, therefore, will not dignify it with any questions, and I yield back the balance of my time. 

Mr. FRANKS. And I am grateful. We now recognize Mr. Ratcliffe 

for 5 minutes. 

Mr. RATCLIFFE. I thank the Chair for convening this hearing, although I certainly wish it was not necessary, and that the horrifying events that have prompted it had not occurred in our country. 

I am grateful for pro-life leaders like Chairman Goodlatte, who are 

spearheading this critical investigation. And I think it is worth 

pointing out that that is what this is, it is an investigation, and 

it is the beginning of an investigation, not the end of one. 

I did not come here to make conclusions unlike some of the 

Democratic colleagues of mine who have been making conclusions 

from the beginning of this hearing. In fact, in the Ranking Member’s opening remarks, he stated that there was no credible evidence that Planned Parenthood had violated the law. He said that 

before he heard a single word of testimony here. 

The Democrats in this room, my colleagues across the aisle, can 

feign outrage, but this is the obligation of Congress. If Federal tax 

dollars are going to Planned Parenthood, we have an obligation as 

duly elected representatives of the people to determine whether or 

not they are using those Federal tax dollars to violate the law. So 

my colleagues across the aisle can be upset, but Congress is doing 

exactly what it should here today. 

The gentleman before me just commented on the fact that Congress has returned after a month of recess. Well, I can tell you 

what the 700,000 people in East Texas that I am privileged to represent wanted to talk about. They wanted to talk about what they 

saw on these Planned Parenthood videos. Now, again, my colleagues across the aisle can say that the videos are not real, but 

they are very real to the 700,000 Texans that I represent. And I 

came here today to ask some questions about that, and I think that 

the Texans that I represent and Americans generally have been 

sickened by what they have seen on those videos. 

Professor Smith, earlier today you referred to Planned Parenthood as a beloved institution. I do not know Planned Parenthood. 

All I know is what I have seen on the videos and what their representatives have said. And in examining that footage, I do not see 

a beloved institution. I see an organization that appears to have a 

blatant disregard for human life. At least that is what appears on 

the video. 

Now, I know that you have talked about how those videos are not 

reliable, but that is not the same thing as saying that they are not 

true. You are not here today under oath to say that none of those 

statements made by Planned Parenthood employees were not true, 

are you? 
181 

Ms. SMITH. Certainly some of the words they uttered and many 

of the statements they said, they did say absolutely. But I think 

the videos were edited to make it seem that they said things they 

did not say. 

Mr. RATCLIFFE. Well, again, I am not asking you to say that they 

are true. What I am saying is would you at least agree with me 

that if the words as you heard them on the video are true, that 

there were some outrageous statements made. 

Ms. SMITH. Well, we would have to talk about which statements 

I think, so. 

Mr. RATCLIFFE. Okay. Well, let us talk about some of those statements. 

Ms. SMITH. Okay. 

Mr. RATCLIFFE. Ms. O’Donnell said, and I will quote it exactly, 

‘‘This is the most gestated fetus and the closest thing to a baby 

that I have ever seen,’’ and she taps the heart and it starts beating. 

‘‘I knew why that was happening. The nodes were still firing, and 

I do not know if that means it is technically dead or it is alive. It 

had a face. It was not completely torn up. Its nose was pronounced. 

It had eyelids. Since the fetus was so intact,’’ she said, ‘‘Okay, well, 

this is a really good fetus, and it looks like we can procure a lot 

from it. We are going to procure a brain.’’ 

I am not asking you if that statement is true. I am saying if it 

is true, would you agree with me that that is outrageous, and it 

raises questions about the legality of actions being taken at 

Planned Parenthood? 

Ms. SMITH. I do not think it raises questions about the legality 

of the actions. I think what she is talking about is an abortion of 

a pre-viable fetus in ways that are distasteful to many of us. And 

I think the language perhaps is not sensitive to people in how they 

want to think about a fetus. 

We often equate fetus with baby. In fact, Members of this Committee have done so repeatedly today, and that makes us think 

about full-term gestated babies rather than fetuses in a very early 

stage of gestation, which is what she is talking about. So when you 

juxtapose those images in your mind, it becomes very distasteful. 

But when you are talking about a very early undeveloped—— 

Mr. RATCLIFFE. Well, reclaiming my time, I understand we are 

going to—— 

Ms. SMITH [continuing]. Situation. 

Mr. RATCLIFFE [continuing]. We are going to disagree about, you 

used the term ‘‘fetus,’’ I will use the term ‘‘baby.’’ But that statement as I read does not give you reason to think that Congress 

should investigate whether or not that statement, if true, perhaps 

violated the partial birth ban or the born alive law? 

Ms. SMITH. There is nothing in that statement. Let me talk briefly about—— 

Mr. RATCLIFFE. Well, let me move on. You have told me that you 

do not agree with me. 

Ms. SMITH. Okay. 

Mr. RATCLIFFE. We are just going to have to agree to disagree. 

But something earlier that you said with Congressman Gowdy was 

that you would be okay with Congress defunding Planned Parenthood if it made those same Federal tax dollars available to other 
182 

providers that were qualified to give healthcare to women in this 

country. 

Ms. SMITH. If there was an institution that provided as high 

quality care as Planned Parenthood does on a consistent basis—— 

Mr. RATCLIFFE. Well, that is not what you said earlier. 

Ms. SMITH. Well, let me correct the record and be more clear 

about it. Yes, that is what I am talking about is—— 

Mr. RATCLIFFE. Okay. Well, so did you know that there are 20 

federally-funded comprehensive care clinics for every one Planned 

Parenthood in this country? 

Ms. SMITH. There are many community health centers—— 

Mr. RATCLIFFE. And are you aware that there are actually 13,000 

federally-qualified healthcare centers for women in this country? 

Ms. SMITH. Yes, and many of them provide much lower quality 

healthcare unfortunately than Planned Parenthood does. There 

was an investigation recently and an article, I think it was in 

Salon.com about the difference between community health centers 

and Planned Parenthood clinics and comparing—— 

Mr. RATCLIFFE. Well, with all due respect, Professor Smith, you 

keep saying that you do not—— 

Ms. SMITH. There is a reason people go to Planned Parenthood, 

which is that the care is very good, very compassionate, and—— 

Mr. RATCLIFFE. As compassionate as what we saw in those videos? 

Ms. SMITH. People trust them. 

Mr. RATCLIFFE. Well, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on that. I do want to reserve some of my time to—— 

Mr. GOODLATTE [presiding]. Unfortunately, the gentleman’s time 

has expired. 

Mr. RATCLIFFE. Then I will yield back. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. And the Chair thanks the gentleman, and recognizes the gentlewoman from Washington, Ms. DelBene. 

Ms. DELBENE. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I wish I could say I am 

surprised that this Committee’s first order of business after this 

August break is to launch yet another attack on women’s health, 

but I am not. Already this year the House has voted to restrict reproductive healthcare in private insurance, to enact a sweeping 20- 

week abortion ban, and to allow employers to discriminate against 

their workers for using birth control. And now, we are conducting 

a so-called investigation that is rooted in extreme anti-choice ideology rather than evidence and facts. 

It is shameful that this Committee is legitimizing the extremists, 

whose only real intent is to intimidate women and their healthcare 

providers, and to shutter Planned Parenthood clinics in communities across the country. In my State of Washington, we are already seeing the consequences of these irresponsible, baseless attacks. Last Friday, one of our Planned Parenthood clinics was the 

victim of arson, a senseless act of violence. 

It is past time for Congress to stop focusing on ideology and start 

focusing on the fats. And the fact is that defunding Planned Parenthood would have a devastating impact on women’s access to 

care. That care includes well women visits, cancer screenings, immunizations, birth control. In fact, more than 90 percent of the 

services provided by Planned Parenthood are preventative. 
183 

We cannot allow the reckless actions of a few extremists to jeopardize the critical safety net provided by Planned Parenthood. And 

with that, Mr. Chair, I would like to submit for the record a letter 

from 92 organizations, including the National Women’s Law Center, expressing their support for Planned Parenthood. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Without objection, it will be made part of the 

record. 

Ms. DELBENE. Thank you. 

[The information referred to follows:] 
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Ms. DELBENE. Professor Smith, we were just talking about comments that some of my colleagues have made that community 

health centers would be able to fill the void if Planned Parenthood 

was defunded. I would love to get your opinion on that. Is it your 

understanding that some Americans would be left without access 

to preventative health services if they were no longer funded and 

those services were no longer available? 

Ms. SMITH. That is right. I do not know the details. I have not 

studied all the areas that are without community health centers, 

but I know that there are many places that simply do not have access to them. I also question the level of services that are provided 

in some of those centers as well. And Planned Parenthood remains 

the only option for many people to obtain these services. That is 

definitely true. 

Can I correct the record with one point also while—— 

Ms. DELBENE. Certainly. 

Ms. SMITH [continuing]. Which is something that Mr. Labrador 

said that people like Ms. Smith encourage people to have abortions. 

And I just want to correct the record and say I have never encouraged someone to have an abortion. I have talked to some women 

who are friends who have been considering abortion, and they have 

discussed their options with me. But I would never encourage 

someone or push anyone to have an abortion, and I wanted to just 

make that clear on the record. 

Ms. DELBENE. I understand. I just want to highlight in my State 

of Washington, Planned Parenthood has—this is actually 2013 

numbers—almost 120,000 patients, over 17,000 folks who have 

gone in for a pap test, over 17,000 who have gone in for breast 

exams. So we are talking about preventative services that are so 

critical. 

Ms. SMITH. A huge number, yes. 

Ms. DELBENE. And in your opinion, are there particular groups 

that would be impacted more significantly if Planned Parenthood 

preventative services were no longer available? 

Ms. SMITH. Absolutely. Women who do not have insurance, lowincome women in particular, women of color in communities which 

do not have access to high-quality services and do not have health 

insurance despite the Affordable Care Act and all the gains that we 

have made there. 

Ms. DELBENE. And as we talk about some of the attacks that we 

have seen against Planned Parenthood, you talked about this in 

your testimony. There is a history of this. Can you elaborate a little 

bit more on that? 

Ms. SMITH. Yes. There have been 9 different similar kinds of 

smear campaigns just since 2000 using these kinds of videos, accusing Planned Parenthood of everything from hiding statutory 

rape, to I forget all the different ones. There have been a number 

of them, and Mr. Bopp was asked about them previously as well, 

and that certainly has gone on. Every time there has been a full 

investigation. There is a huge hue and cry about it. It gets in the 

press. Everyone goes crazy. Congressional hearings are held. 

Things are investigated, and the claims are debunked. It has happened again and again and again, and I will predict that that will 

happen again this time. 
189 

Ms. DELBENE. Thank you. It is unfortunate that it is happening 

right now. Thank you and I yield back the remainder of my time, 

Mr. Chair. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Bishop, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. BISHOP. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to those of 

you who have showed up to testify today. Thank you for the fact 

that you have had to sit through this long bit of questioning. It is 

very important to all of us. 

I take exception with the last exchange that I heard, terms like 

‘‘smear tactics,’’ or ‘‘smear campaign,’’ ‘‘attack on women’s health.’’ 

What would you have us do? I do not understand. All of us had to 

witness what we saw in these videos. Planned Parenthood is funded by the United States government, by taxpayers. It is our responsibility as Members, Republicans and Democrats, to address issues 

like this in this format. 

I think it would be easy just to walk away from this and to just 

pretend like it did not happen, put our head in the sand. It seems 

like Congress does that a lot. But in this case, the videos were so 

abhorrent and so unconscionable that it is our responsibility to step 

up and to have these hearings to get to the bottom of it before we 

go forward with the same old same old of funding and funding for 

the sake of having done it before. 

This is our responsibility, and I just want to make that point 

clear that I am not here on any witch hunt. I am a newer Member. 

I have not been a part of anything that has happened in the past. 

I am not here as Republican or Democrat. I am here because I am 

an American citizen, and I am also a taxpayer, and I believe it is 

our responsibility to marshal our resources and do it in a way that 

is consistent with our fiduciary duty. That said, when I see this 

video I am outraged, and as a citizen I want to be here and talk 

to all of you. I am sorry about the diatribe, but I think it is very 

important that you see the emotion in all of us. 

I want to get back to a question that we began with, and that 

was the discussion that we had about valuable consideration, and 

whether or not any of this testimony, everything that we have 

heard, the video, is, in fact, illegal. What is ‘‘valuable consideration?’’ I offer that as a question to my legal counsel, both of you. 

Mr. Bopp, you suggested there is a gaping hole, and it is for reasonable payments for reimbursable costs, whatever that might 

mean. 

I want to read you a portion of this transcript, if I might. And 

this is between one of the folks that set up the undercover video 

and two individuals in Planned Parenthood. The actor that was 

there for the undercover video said, ‘‘And we agree that $100 will 

keep you happy, correct?’’ Lauren Felzer replies—she is also the 

senior director of Planned Parenthood—‘‘I think so.’’ Dr. Gatter, 

also there, M.D. with Planned Parenthood, said, ‘‘Well, let me find 

out what other affiliates in California are getting, and if they are 

getting substantially more, then we can discuss it then.’’ The actor 

says, ‘‘Yes.’’ Dr. Gatter says, ‘‘I mean, the money isn’t the important thing, but it has to be big enough that it is worthwhile.’’ The 

undercover person says, ‘‘No, no, but it is something to talk about. 
190 

*Note: The material referred to is not printed in this hearing record but is on file with the 

Subcommittee. Also, see Rep. Mike Bishop Submissions at: 

http://docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent.aspx?EventID=103920. 

I mean, it was one of the first things that you brought up, right?’’ 

Dr. Gatter, ‘‘Hmm.’’ 

The undercover person says, ‘‘Now, here’s another thought. If we 

could talk about a specimen, per specimen per case, or procured tissue sample.’’ Dr. Gatter, ‘‘Hmm.’’ Buyer, ‘‘So if we are able to get 

a liver thymus pair, maybe that’s $75 per specimen. So that is a 

liver thymus pair, and that’s $150.’’ Dr. Gatter, ‘‘Hmm.’’ Maybe 

that is ‘‘mm hmm.’’ I cannot tell from this transcript. 

Buyer, ‘‘Versus if we get a liver thymus brain hemisphere, and 

all of that is,’’ and Dr. Gatter says, ‘‘Okay.’’ Buyer, ‘‘So that protects us so that we’re not paying for stuff we cannot use, and I 

think it also maybe illustrates things.’’ Dr. Gatter, ‘‘It’s been years 

since I have talked about compensation, so let me just figure out 

what others are getting. If this is in the ballpark, it is fine. If it’s 

still too low, then we can bump it up. I want a Lamborghini.’’ And 

the undercover person says, ‘‘What did you say?’’ And Dr. Gatter 

says, ‘‘I said I want a Lamborghini.’’ 

Now, I just read you a portion of that transcript of that video, 

and this appears to be a flat fee exchange. It is almost as though 

they are at a restaurant picking from a menu. Is that not valuable 

consideration that they are talking about, and have we had any 

discussion about reasonable payment for reimbursable costs? 

Mr. BOPP. Well, your last point is what is noteworthy because 

paying anything is a valuable consideration. And the exception, 

which they are trying to exploit, is for reasonable reimbursement 

of costs, reasonable payments for various costs associated with the 

procurement of the tissue. Well, the costs do not vary based upon 

how many specimens you get out of a particular fetus. What varies 

is how much money you are going to get out of it. 

And what is noteworthy about that exchange is where was the 

discussion or reference to, well, what does it cost us when they are 

talking about how much. What she was interested in is what is the 

market price. In other words, what is everybody getting for this, 

not because of our costs, but because of what they are getting. That 

discussion is 100 percent about maximizing the amount of money 

that is obtained based upon market considerations and based on 

per specimen. The costs are not going to change by how many 

specimens you get, and a per specimen price is not based on any 

idea of what are the costs related to the procurement. 

Mr. BISHOP. Thank you. I know that my time has expired, Mr. 

Chair, but if I might, the video to which I just referred to and what 

this Committee has repeatedly referred to throughout this hearing 

is a material part of this discussion. And at this time, I would ask 

unanimous consent to enter into the record the entire transcripts, 

all the transcripts, from these abhorrent tapes that we have been 

discussing today.* 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Without objection. 

Mr. CICILLINE. A point of parliamentary inquiry, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. I am sorry. 

Mr. CICILLINE. A point of parliamentary inquiry. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Sure. 
191 

Mr. CICILLINE. Are those transcripts complete and full and unedited? Do they contain all of the statements made because I think 

a review was done that demonstrated the transcripts were inaccurate, and I think it is important if the Committee is going to 

admit them and rely on them, that we should have some affidavit 

ensuring that they are, in fact, complete, fair, and accurate recordings of what was actually said in the complete, unedited recordings. 

Mr. BISHOP. Mr. Chair, if I might respond. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Absolutely. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Because we are just compounding injury upon injury if we are going to admit to this Committee a set of transcripts 

that are inaccurate, that distort exactly what happened, and rely 

on them. We have a responsibility to be sure that they are complete and accurate. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Is the gentleman requesting that the transcript 

of the public video be made a part of the record? 

Mr. BISHOP. Yes. These are the public videos that appear that on 

the—— 

Ms. LOFGREN. Reserving the right—— 

Mr. GOODLATTE. So much like of a transcript of any other program—— 

Mr. CICILLINE. No, quite unlike—— 

Mr. GOODLATTE [continuing]. That is made available through a 

news organization or anything else, that is what the gentleman is 

requesting. 

Mr. BISHOP. Exactly. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Reserving the right to object. 

Mr. BISHOP. And Members can assign credibility to whatever 

part of it is—— 

Mr. GOODLATTE. You are not characterizing it. You are just putting into the—— 

Mr. BISHOP. Exactly. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. A transcript of the public record. 

Mr. BISHOP. What has appeared to everybody. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Reserving the right to object. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. For what purpose does the gentlewoman—— 

Ms. LOFGREN. I would like to comment, it has been the policy of 

the Committee to not object to putting anything in the record of 

whatever evidentiary value, so I do understand that tradition, and 

it is not my intention in the end to object. But I would like to note 

that if we are going to agree with this, we must also include the 

forensic report by the Fusion Group that analyzed the video showing that it has no evidentiary value. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. If the gentlewoman wishes to offer that, I would 

be happy to put that in the record if there is no objection to that 

as well. 

Ms. LOFGREN. That would be my request, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. All right. Without objection, both of those documents will be made part of the record. 

[The information referred to follows:] 
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Mr. GOODLATTE. And the Chair thanks the gentleman, and now 

recognizes the gentleman from Rhode Island, Mr. Cicilline. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to the witnesses for being here today and for offering your differing viewpoints on this very difficult issue. And I know the passion that accompanies both sides as well as passion from my colleagues. 

I am still kind of struggling with what exactly this hearing is 

about. Issues have been raised with respect to the fetal tissue research. It is clear that there are established scientific protocols that 

were followed. There is a correspondence in the record from August 

27th that confirms that. There has been a lot of discussion about 

late term abortion, which, of course, is prohibited under Federal 

law. And then a lot of discussion about the central question of 

whether women have a constitutional right to make decisions regarding their own reproductive healthcare. That is also a settled 

question of law. 

You said, Mr. Bopp, that you in your written testimony reviewed 

these recorded conversations released by the Center for Medical 

Progress, and they reveal many legal issues with Planned Parenthood’s procedures and practices regarding fetal tissue procurement. 

And you base that on your review of these video recordings, and 

then you were asked about a series of allegations that laws may 

have been broken in the generation of these videos, Federal tax 

laws, criminal laws in California that prohibit fraud and forgery, 

making false charitable solicitations and the like. And Mr. Dahlia’s 

lawyer recently advised a Federal court that he intends to invoke 

his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination in response 

to a lawsuit alleging he violated Federal and State laws. 

You said further that you were advised by this Committee not to 

discuss the circumstances that occurred in the production, and editing, and alteration, and securing of these videos. Is that correct? 

Mr. BOPP. As you are aware, the purpose of this hearing, that 

is not part of purposes of this hearing. 

Mr. CICILLINE. That is not my question, Mr. Bopp. Were you advised by the Committee counsel not to discuss the allegations of 

criminal behavior in the generation of these videos? That is a ‘‘yes’’ 

or ‘‘no.’’ 

Mr. BOPP. I am not answering ‘‘yes’’ or ‘‘no’’ to that question. 

Mr. CICILLINE. But were you advised? You said you were advised 

not discuss it. 

Mr. BOPP. You misstated what I said I was advised about, so how 

can I say ‘‘yes’’ or ‘‘no?′′ 

Mr. CICILLINE. Were you advised not to discuss how these videos 

were produced, whether it was done in violation of law? 

Mr. BOPP. I was advised that that is not the purpose of the hearing, and I should not comment. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Okay. What this really is, Mr. Chairman and 

Members of the Committee, is creating an opportunity to defund 

Planned Parenthood, and to make it more difficult for women to 

have access to full reproductive healthcare. We know the value of 

Planned Parenthood each year provides essential care to 2.7 million patients, men and women; that 1 in 5 women in the United 

States has visited Planned Parenthood once in her lifetime; that a 

million and a half young people and adults participate in edu-
203 

cational programs on reproductive health; that 6 million visits a 

month to the Planned Parenthood website where healthcare information is readily available in English and in Spanish. 

700 clinics throughout the country that provide 900,000 cancer 

screenings to help women detect cervical and breast cancer early. 

400,000 pap tests, 500,000 breast exams, and 80,000 of those cancer screenings detected early so that hundreds of thousands of children, siblings, and parents are still able to be with their loved ones 

because Planned Parenthood saved their lives. 

I want to associate myself with the remarks of Congressman 

Deutch and Congressman Gutierrez. I think as you said, Ms. 

Smith, the cruel irony is that an effort to defund Planned Parenthood, which is already prohibited from using any Federal funds to 

provide abortion services, means the other 97 percent of their services that I just outlined would be compromised. And, in fact, the 

incidence of unwanted pregnancies and abortion would increase. 

So defunding Planned Parenthood is very likely to cause exactly 

the thing that the opponents of Planned Parenthood claim they do 

not want, and that is more abortion. Could you speak more about 

that? 

Ms. SMITH. Yes, I think that is right, and I think one of the 

things that this makes clear is that the campaign against abortion 

goes beyond abortion, and that it is also a campaign against contraceptives. We have seen that campaign heat up recently. I just 

wrote a paper about this, not to promote my own research, but 

called ‘‘Contraceptive Comstockery,’’ which is about the recent campaign, which revives some of the tactics of anti-abortion and anticontraceptive advocates in the late 1800’s and into the 1950’s. So 

that continues today. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Yeah, it is very disappointing since many of us 

had hoped that this issue has been settled, that women have the 

right to full reproductive healthcare, that they have a right to 

make decisions about their own bodies in consultations with their 

own physicians and their own conscience, and that to have our first 

hearing in the Judiciary Committee, another effort to make it more 

difficult for women in America to access high-quality healthcare is 

incredibly disappointing. 

I thank you for your testimony, and I yield back. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Collins, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. COLLINS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record my opening statement. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Without objection, it will be made a part of the 

record. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Collins follows:] 

Prepared Statement of the Honorable Doug Collins, a Representative in 

Congress from the State of Georgia, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary 

Mr. Chairman, thank you for holding today’s hearing on the abortion practices at 

Planned Parenthood. I’m grateful for your commitment to examining the horrific 

practices that have been uncovered through a series of undercover videos and to investigating the allegations against Planned Parenthood. 

As the father of three children, I believe we have no greater responsibility than 

protecting human life. I believe abortion is wrong and I think we have a responsibility as human beings to be a voice for those who do not yet have a voice—the inno-
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cent unborn. These unborn children are human beings, gifts from God that are 

brimming with potential. We need to look no further than two of the witnesses sitting before us today. These women, Gianna Jessen and Melissa Ohden, are survivors. They are also proof that there was and is a plan and purpose for their life 

and that babies unborn and born deserve protection. 

But we are here today to talk specifically about Planned Parenthood and their 

abortion practices. For years Planned Parenthood has engaged in morally questionable activities, but the videos released by the Center for Medical Progress have 

raised serious questions about immoral, inhumane, and quite possibly illegal practices at Planned Parenthood. 

The videos seem to indicate clear intent to alter abortions to harvest fetal organs. 

This is despicable in and of itself, but it becomes even more morally reprehensible 

when shown that Planned Parenthood could even be profiting from the sale of babies’ body parts. 

Planned Parenthood officials in the videos seem to have no qualms discussing the 

dissection and sale of fetal organs. They casually discuss the commercial exploitation of aborted fetal tissue over lunch, as if babies are a commodity for trade and 

profit rather than precious lives to be protected. 

Abortion proponents and Planned Parenthood apologists try to distort the issue 

by painting the justifiable outrage and upset over the videos as attacks on women’s 

health. In fact, the Democratic witness present today has claimed this hearing is 

an attack on Planned Parenthood and the reproductive care it provides. This could 

not be more false. 

First of all, just looking at Georgia as an example, there are 5 Planned Parenthood facilities in my home state. Compare that to the 274 clinics in Georgia providing comprehensive health care services for women. This issue is not about access 

to care. 

This hearing is about ensuring the nation’s largest abortion provider—which receives hundreds of millions of dollars in federal funding—is not illegally harvesting 

fetal organs. 

The Committee’s investigation is not a jump to conclusions but rather a fact-finding mission to gather the full truth surrounding the horrific allegations in the Center for Medical Progress’ videos. 

I hope that this will be just the first among many hearings to investigate these 

abortion practices and to shed light on Planned Parenthood’s actions. The American 

people have a right to know what is happening, and we have a moral obligation to 

be a voice for the unborn. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back. 

Mr. COLLINS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I have said many 

times as being a Member the last Congress and now this Congress, 

I am sort of down here toward the end. And after hearing everything, there are many times that you come to points of really wondering, the points of why we are here. And I am able to talk about 

a lot of different things. 

Ms. Smith, I am not even sure, and I may get to you on questions. But what I have heard a lot today from you is context. I am 

not sure how any of these you could ever put into proper context. 

I do not care how many ways you want to spin it, what was on 

those videos and what was said. There is no way you put some of 

these in context that they are not abhorrent to anyone who would 

watch those videos. 

But I think there is a bigger issue here that really for me it carries out something, and Ms. Ohden and Ms. Jessen. You made a 

statement in your opening statement about, you talked about, and 

I have heard this, and I have counseled many who have either had 

abortions or were thinking about abortion in my life and what I 

have done as a chaplain, as a pastor, but also as an attorney. And 

you made a statement, because I have heard this before, if a baby 

is disabled, we need to terminate the pregnancy as if someone on 

the outside can determine a quality of life. 
205 

And that, frankly, from my position, and was mentioned by even 

a friend of mine. He is a friend. We disagree greatly on this issue. 

It is many times a mom and a dad who are facing a tough decision 

just like we did 23 years ago when my daughter, we found out she 

had spina bifida. My wife went back to work, and in a time of 

much emotional turmoil, a colleague of hers said in very interesting 

ways, I am being helpful. You have choices. You do not have to go 

through this. We were a young couple back then. She was just 

starting teaching, and I was working. 

Yes, there are life choices made, Ms. Smith. But as you go along 

and as you look at this, my wife finally figured out what she was 

trying to tell her. She said you can go kill your child, and you will 

not have to worry about it anymore. When my wife understood 

that, she said you are talking about my baby. Not a fetus, a baby. 

Today I think we miss this, and this is what gets lost in this debate about quality of life and other issues of when they are born 

and how they are not born. But the two of you have lives that are 

so productive. You are not a failure. You are a failure of a misguided person who would want to kill you before you could say you 

are killing me, but you are not a failure. Cerebral palsy, I love you 

how you said that, ‘‘my blessing.’’ I never thought that I would 

have a chance to think that the first steps my daughter would ever 

take was rolling in a wheelchair. 

She texted me earlier today, and she was just asking how your 

day was going. I said it is a pretty hard day. I did not tell her what 

I was doing. She is at a place getting job skills and life training 

to be independent. And she said, well, Dad, whatever you are going 

through, I am praying for you. 

My child has a life, and there are many in the abortion industry 

that are willingly telling people that if you have a child that has 

the most debilitating condition or even up to spina bifida or other 

issues, you do not have to go through with this. We forget in this 

argument today, and I am so over context, I am so over clinics, and 

we like our clinic better than the other clinic, Ms. Smith. There are 

other clinics that are out there that can help women and help meet 

issues. You know that. You may not like them. That is your choice. 

But I am so over the fact that we miss a fundamental issue here, 

and that is life. For me, I commend the hearing. I think it is something because I just do not see a context it can be actually explained away. We want to, and if I was you, Ms. Smith, I would 

want to as well. But at the end of the day, let us stand up and ask 

the hard questions, and remember that life, and remember those, 

as you said, Ms. Jessen, even those who do not really have a voice. 

If we do not let them have a voice, then they are silent. And for 

many of us, we will never be silent because life is precious, and for 

me, they deserve a birthday. 

And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. The Chair thanks the gentleman, and recognizes the gentleman from California, Mr. Peters, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. PETERS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It has been a long day 

for the witnesses in particular. I want to thank you all for being 

here and spending the time. 

I do observe that there is a sad and a cruel irony in those who 

say they are against abortion and trying to defund an organization 
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that works so hard to prevent them. And one of the core missions 

of Planned Parenthood is to prevent unwanted pregnancies, and 

my colleagues apparently want to shut it down. 

We are late in the day, and a lot of people have said a number 

of things, but I would emphasize a couple. We were called out as 

taxpayers here, and I am a taxpayer, too. And I want you to know 

that I appreciate what Planned Parenthood has done to prevent 

STDs, to give cancer screenings to low-income women, and to provide contraceptive care. All those things save us money as taxpayers, and I think that should be not lost on us. 

People have commented that the person who made the video is 

not here, and in my experience in law, that would be an important 

witness, but that has been covered. 

And I would say, too, that I acknowledge and I agree that the 

discussion of these issues on these videos was somewhat disturbing, and at least insensitive. The issue for us, though, in the 

Judiciary Committee is to look at what is legal, and just on that 

point, I do not think anything today has shown that there has been 

something illegal here. 

And if you wanted to test that, you could ask the opponents if 

they would agree that there was a schedule of the amounts that 

they would agree was reimbursement as opposed to profit. And 

they would never agree that $30 was the right number or $50 was 

the right number because that is really not what is at issue here. 

The legality of this is not at issue. This is an issue about abortion, 

choice, contraception, and everything but legality. 

I would also observe that Planned Parenthood has not been accused of committing fraud, violating licensing laws, violating the 

Medicaid statutes, so there is a legal issue with respect to carving 

them out for Medicaid. And that has been litigated in a number of 

States because any provider may provide these kinds of care unless 

they are found to have violated these laws. Planned Parenthood 

has not been, and attempts to cut them off in Tennessee, Indiana, 

Arizona, and North Carolina have all been fruitless for those reasons. 

So I think it is illuminating in many ways to have this hearing. 

I think it has not really been about legality. It has been about a 

much broader issue, an issue I think we all thought would have 

been settled 40 years ago, that these are decisions that are very, 

very difficult for families. 

And my colleague just shared his, and, gosh, what a thing to 

have go through. But they are not decisions ultimately that should 

be made by our government. They are decisions that should be 

made by a woman in consultation with her doctor and in consultation with her family. And it is not for the Judiciary Committee or 

the United States government or any government to say how families should handle that very tough issue. 

So with respect to the issue of legality, I hope we have run our 

course. We have certainly had enough time to discuss it. I do not 

think we found legality would justify any further discussion on 

this, and I hope we can move forward. And I yield back. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Texas, 

Mr. Gohmert, for 5 minutes. 
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Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you. And, Mr. Chairman, you did not deserve to be called ignorant by Mr. Nadler. I think you made a very 

informed decision when you called this hearing, and I appreciate 

your doing so. And falling last or near the end as I apparently 

have, I get a chance to address some of the things that have been 

raised. 

First of all, my friend from New York, Mr. Nadler, said these 

people who did the videos were liars because if they were otherwise, the videos were legitimate, they would have gone to the prosecutor to get these matters prosecuted. But I can answer that because I have advised people that came in as whistleblowers about 

things that this Administration cared about as they do Planned 

Parenthood, where they defend them at all cost, as they have even 

after the videos were made public. 

Unfortunately, if you go to a prosecutor as a whistleblower on an 

organization or a group that this Administration protects, they 

prosecute you. I have seen that over and over, and that is why at 

times I have advised people you get a lawyer, and we go a different 

route. But if you go to the Justice Department, you will find it is 

a Department of injustice because we have seen it over and over 

with this Administration. 

And as far as cutting and being selective, they did take excerpts 

and put them online, but also put the long video just so that people 

would not be able to come in here and honestly say what has been 

dishonestly said, that they were only trying to show a portion. 

They cut straight to what they felt was important, but they put the 

whole thing up there. 

And then as far as the continued statement that the first hearing 

this Chairman called after the August recess was to launch an attack on women’s health, I see this as a hearing to protect the 

health of females. I see this Fox News show, Outnumbered. That 

has been my life for many years now. I have a wife for 37 years, 

thanks to her, and I have three wonderful daughters. And our first 

was born 8 to 10 weeks prematurely. She got down to three pounds 

before she started gaining weight again. I know what it is to hold 

a 3-pound child in my hand. 

And I did not know whether to stay with my wife in Tyler or to 

follow the ambulance. My wife said, go do anything you can for our 

child. I followed the ambulance. The doctor said she cannot see 

you. Her eyes are not good enough, but she hears you, she knows 

your voice. You talk to her. You caress her. She grabbed the end 

of my finger. She held it. They said I could stay for 2 hours at a 

time. After 8 hours after they had noted, she is pulling strength 

and life from you. I could not leave. I stayed for hour after hour. 

But the thought that somebody could take that little 3-pound 

child and rip her leg off, or rip her arm off, and not consider that 

inhumane, or the thought that if we take this little child’s heart, 

or liver, or organs and use it for a productive purpose for somebody 

else’s life, then it is okay. And what really came home was a couple 

of nights ago, I am in the Old Testament right now, and was reading about a woman that came complaining to the prophet. And she 

was in a city that was under siege, and she complained that another woman had talked her into a deal where the first time they 
208 

would boil her little baby and eat the child, and then after that 

they would boil the second woman’s child and eat that child. 

Well, let us face it, come on. This hearing we have heard over 

and over if it is to save lives it is okay. I could not believe how reprehensible that was, how immoral, and that seems to be happening. But I can tell you I want my girls to have mammograms, 

and whether they have money or not, I want them to have mammograms. So does it not make more sense to give that money for 

those of us who deeply care about women’s health, give it to facilities that actually do the mammograms so Planned Parenthood does 

not take their cut? 

And when anyone says, oh, but it does not go to fund abortion, 

listen, I have been a judge, I have been a prosecutor, I have been 

a chief justice. And if somebody says, well, look, we paid all the 

rent and all the utilities for this facility, knowing that a crime was 

being committed in there, you have aided and abetted, and you are 

as guilty as the principle for what happens in that facility. 

And I see my time is up, and I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for 

your indulgence. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Mr. Chairman? 

Mr. GOODLATTE. The Chair thanks the gentleman. For what purpose does the gentlewoman from California seek recognition? 

Ms. LOFGREN. I would like to ask unanimous consent to put in 

the record a letter from the California Primary Care Association indicating they do not have the capacity to pick up the Planned Parenthood casework. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Without objection, it will be made a part of the 

record. 
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Mr. GOODLATTE. This concludes today’s first hearing as part of 

this investigation. I want to thank all of our distinguished witnesses for attending. We will soon announce the date of the next 

hearing. 

And without objection, all Members will have 5 legislative days 

to submit written questions for the witnesses or additional materials for the record. 

This hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 2:16 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 
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