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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON

AT TACOMA

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) Docket No. CR05-5828FDB

)

Plaintiff, ) Tacoma, Washington

) February 15, 2008

vs. )

)

BRIANA WATERS, ) VOLUME 5

)

Defendant. )

)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

BEFORE THE HONORABLE FRANKLIN D. BURGESS

SENIOR UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT JUDGE, and a jury.

APPEARANCES:

For the Plaintiff: MARK N. BARTLETT

ANDREW C. FRIEDMAN

Assistant United States Attorney

700 Stewart Street, Suite 5220

Seattle, Washington 98101-1271

For the Defendant: ROBERT BLOOM

Attorney at Law

3355 Richmond Boulevard

Oakland, California 94611

NEIL M. FOX

Cohen & Iaria

1008 Western Ave., Suite 302

Seattle, Washington 98104

Court Reporter: Teri Hendrix

Union Station Courthouse, Rm 3130

1717 Pacific Avenue

Tacoma, Washington 98402

(253) 882-3831

Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript

produced by Reporter on computer.
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I N D E X

INDEX OF WITNESSES

==================

WITNESS ON BEHALF OF PLAINTIFF: Page

LACEY PHILLABAUM

Direct by Mr. Friedman.......................... 721

Cross by Mr. Bloom.............................. 737

Redirect by Mr. Friedman........................ 918

MEGAN ROOP

Direct by Mr. Friedman.......................... 920

Cross by Mr. Fox................................ 928

INDEX - EXHIBITS

EXHIBITS Page

No. 349 723

No. 115-A 737

No. A-192 (Marked) 897

No. 771 923
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721

FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 15, 2008 - 9:00 A.M.

* * *

THE COURT: All right, you may be seated.

THE CLERK: This is in the matter of United States of

America versus Briana Waters, Cause No. CR05-5828FDB.

Counsel, please make an appearance for the record.

MR. FRIEDMAN: Good morning, Your Honor, Andrew

Friedman and Mark Bartlett for the United States.

MR. BLOOM: Robert Bloom and Neil Fox for Ms. Waters.

THE COURT: Let the record reflect Ms. Waters is

present.

We are dealing with Ms. Phillabaum, so we will bring in

the jury and continue that examination.

(Jury present.)

LACEY PHILLABAUM, called as a witness, resumed stand.

THE COURT: All right, you may be seated. Good

morning to you.

I believe we are ready for day five.

Mr. Friedman.

MR. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION- CONTINUED

BY MR. FRIEDMAN:

Q. Good morning, Ms. Phillabaum.

A. Good morning.

Q. I think when we stopped yesterday we were talking about
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the afternoon, after you had broken up following the arson.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Do you recall having any discussions about any damage to

the car that day?

A. The day of the arson?

Q. I'm sorry, do you recall having discussions that afternoon

about damage to the car?

A. That may have been when I talked with Avalon about Bill

Rodgers, about how much damage had been done to the car, and

he reassured me that the damage was minimal.

Q. Did you have any sense as to whether anyone had tried to

repair it?

A. Yes. I knew that the plan was, and I think he confirmed

to me, to get some of like paint retouching, car retouching;

and to fix the minor scrape that had happened.

Q. I believe we were also talking about a communiqué. You

said you subsequently saw a communiqué relating to the action?

A. I did.

Q. Would you look again at Exhibit 349.

A. There's this page outside of it. There's nothing in the

folder, but this says 349 at the bottom.

Q. I think this may have been in the mixup right at the end

of the day yesterday, because I think you were looking at it

at the end of the day yesterday. Do you recall that?

A. Okay. I'm sorry.
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723

Q. Do you recall looking at it at the end of the day

yesterday, and it being Exhibit 349?

A. No, I don't, I'm sorry. I don't have a particular memory

of that.

MR. FRIEDMAN: May I approach the witness and hand

her another copy, if necessary, Your Honor?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FRIEDMAN:

Q. I'm sorry. You're saying you have something that's marked

349?

A. It has a sticker on the bottom that says 349. It just was

inside the folder.

Q. I'm sorry, I thought you said you were looking at a piece

of paper that had nothing on it.

A. No, I'm sorry.

Q. Do you recognize that document?

A. It's a communiqué written after the arson.

MR. FRIEDMAN: Government offers Exhibit 349.

MR. BLOOM: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted.

(Exhibit No. 349 admitted.)

MR. FRIEDMAN: If you could blow that up.

BY MR. FRIEDMAN:

Q. Could I ask you to read that to the jury?

MR. BLOOM: Could we perhaps get that "not published"
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off the screen, do you think, Pat?

THE CLERK: I'm sorry.

MR. BLOOM: Thank you.

A. It says:

"Communiqué sent by the Earth Liberation Front.

"Part 1.

"At 3:15 a.m. on Monday, May 21, the research of Toby

Bradshaw was reduced to smoke and ashes. We attacked his

office at the University of Washington while at the same time

another group set fire to a related target in Clatskanie,

Oregon, 150 miles away.

"Bradshaw, the driving force in GE tree research,

continues to unleash mutant genes into the environment that is

certain to cause irreversible harm to forest ecosystems.

"After breaking into Bradshaw's office at the Center for

Urban Horticulture, we inspected the building for occupants

and set up incendiary devices with a modest amount of

accelerant. Although we placed these devices specifically to

target his office, a large portion of the building was

damaged. This extensive damage was due to a surprisingly slow

and poorly coordinated response from the fire department,

which was evident by their radio transmissions,

"As long as universities continue to pursue this reckless

'science,' they run the risk of suffering severe losses. Our

message remains clear, we are determined to stop genetic
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engineering.

"From the torching of Catherine Ive's office at Michigan

State University to the total incineration of GE seeds at the

D & PL warehouses in Visalia, CA, the Earth Liberation Front

is growing and spreading. As the culture of domination forces

itself into our very genes, wild fires of outrage will

continue to blaze.

"ELF.

"Part 2.

"Early Monday morning, May 21, we dealt a blow to one of

the many institutions responsible for massive hybrid tree

farming in the Northwest. Incendiary devices at Jefferson

Poplar in Clatskanie, Oregon, burned an office and a fleet of

13 trucks. Unfortunately, due to a design flaw, one targeted

structure was left standing. We torched Jefferson Poplar

because hybrid poplars are an ecological nightmare threatening

native biodiversity in the ecosystem. Our forests are being

liquidated and replaced with monocultured tree farms so

greedy, earth raping corporations can make more money.

"Pending legislation in Oregon and Washington further

criminalizing direct action in defense of the wild will not

stop us and only highlights the fragility of the ecocidal

empire.

"As we wrote in Clatskanie 'You cannot control what is

wild.'
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"ELF.

"Earth Liberation Front."

Q. Over time, Ms. Phillabaum, did you learn more about the

Center for Urban Horticulture?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you learn?

A. Well, I'm not sure if I knew exactly what was in the

building at that time, but I started to understand what the

offices in that building were really about.

Q. Did you learn about what damage had been done to the

center?

A. Yeah. I looked at it only in a very preliminary way,

because I didn't really want to know or have to look back at

what we had done. But working with Oregon Tilth, I came to

understand what a master gardener is, and I came to know what

a community of people invested in sustainable agriculture is.

It was, you know, a blessing to me to work in that community

in Oregon. I did great damage to that community in

Washington.

Q. How did that cause you to feel about what you had done?

A. I still mostly tried not to look back at it. But, you

know, one thing that really impacted me as well was knowing

that books were burned. I have a lot of remorse about what we

did.

Q. Did you ever consider committing another arson after that?
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A. No.

Q. Did you ever commit any other arsons?

A. No. I made efforts to start distancing myself from the

Earth Liberation Front and radical environmentalism generally

at that point.

It took a while, and really, when this case happened was,

you know, an important point in me being forced to look back

at what had happened. It took me from 1995 to 2001 to be

willing to do this as well. So it took a while to change my

perspective on things as well.

Q. You told us yesterday you -- well, I guess you weren't

then -- you were growing involved with Mr. Meyerhoff?

A. Uh-huh. We got to know each other there, and then sort of

our relationship grew from that point. It was very much about

integrating ourselves back into the mainstream instead of

being counter to it. It was a lot of work and it was very

difficult to do.

Q. Do you know whether he may have committed any arsons after

these two arsons?

A. I don't know anything for sure except what was in the

documents in Oregon, the legal briefs, which I think says he

did.

Q. Did you try and do anything to prevent -- was part of

distancing yourself, did any of that have to do with

Mr. Meyerhoff or what he did?
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728

A. Well -- I'm sorry, ask me that again.

Q. You said you tried to distance yourself. What about the

fact that Mr. Meyerhoff may or may not have remained involved,

did you do anything about that?

A. Well, the first part of getting uninvolved was admitting

to one another that we didn't want to be involved. And that

was difficult to do at the very beginning of our relationship,

having met each other in this circumstance.

So eventually, you know, I -- I was pretty clear with him

after 9/11 that I thought it was just absolutely intolerable

to be involved in anything like this. It was a mutually

reinforcing system of changing our values.

Q. Do you have any information that he may, even after 9/11,

he might have been involved in another arson?

A. I can't remember the dates of things that I wasn't

involved in right now.

Q. Did you have discussions with him about him also becoming

uninvolved or distancing himself?

A. Yes. I think I told him that opinion after 9/11. I think

I read in the paper about this thing in California that

happened after 9/11. I was not sure that he had been

involved, but I made it pretty clear to him that I thought

that that was completely unacceptable.

Q. Whether or not he was? That he may have been, but that

you --
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MR. BLOOM: Excuse me. Leading, please.

BY MR. FRIEDMAN:

Q. Could you try and explain what you made clear to him or

what you were trying to make clear to him?

A. That arson as a political tactic was completely

illegitimate given the political context after 9/11. The

idea -- we were so focused on the fact that it was, we called

it nonviolent. We didn't appreciate how incredibly

destructive what we were doing was. We were just so focused

on it's not violent, it won't hurt anyone. After 9/11, that

rationale seemed as thin as it was.

Q. Did you ever see the defendant again after the weekend of

the arson?

A. Briana Waters?

Q. Yes.

A. No.

Q. Do you recall whether you ever saw Justin Solondz after

the weekend of the arson?

A. I don't think so, no.

Q. Did you ever see William Rodgers again?

A. I am pretty sure that I never saw him again.

Q. And what about Jennifer Kolar?

A. I never saw -- oh, no, I saw her one other time, at a

meeting of that book club group that took place shortly after

the arson.
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730

Q. Do you recall, what year was that?

A. That would have been 2001, shortly after the arson.

Q. Do you recall ever seeing her since 2001?

A. I have never seen Jen Kolar since 2001.

Q. Have you had any other direct contact with Ms. Kolar?

Have you telephoned or spoken to her by telephone?

A. I have had absolutely no contact with Jen Kolar.

Q. Have you received any e-mails from her, of which you are

aware of, since 2001?

A. No e-mail, no phone contact, no friend of a friend.

Absolutely no contact.

Q. Ms. Phillabaum, during 2000 and 2001, did you ever use

marijuana?

A. During 2000 and 2001, yes.

Q. Did you ever use it -- can you give us an idea of how

often you used it?

A. I used it -- I would say that I had a problem with smoking

marijuana. I used it frequently.

Q. Did you use it before or around the time of any of the

planning meetings you've discussed?

A. No. Avalon was very -- had a very strong ethic of not

using drugs generally, and very, very, particularly, we all --

I, mean this was serious. None of us was going to be drunk or

stoned when we were doing this. So, no, absolutely not.

Q. Did you also use ecstasy during that time period?
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731

A. No.

Q. Have you used it since?

A. I did afterwards, yes.

Q. How often do you think you've used ecstasy?

A. I haven't used it since, I think the latest would be 2002.

And how often? I don't know. A handful of times in that --

four times, maybe, between -- the first time I think was in

December of 2001.

Q. Do you think that the marijuana that you used or the

ecstasy, either of those has affected your memory of these

events?

A. Of these events, no.

Q. Why is that?

A. Well, I didn't ever -- it didn't ever make me hallucinate.

I was absent minded when I did smoke marijuana, but I don't

have problems with my memory. The things I remember, I

remember clearly; and what I don't remember, I don't remember.

Q. When we started out you told us a little bit about where

you had lived over time. I think you told us at some point

you moved to Charlottesville.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. After you moved to Charlottesville, did Mr. Meyerhoff also

move to the east coast?

A. He did at some point afterwards, yes.

Q. Where were you living when this case became public and
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Mr. Meyerhoff was arrested?

A. I was living in Washington, D.C.

Q. Do you recall the day on which he was arrested?

A. December 7, 2005.

Q. How did you learn he had been arrested?

A. He was living in a house that I had previously rented, and

I spoke with my housemate, my former housemate. I had been

calling him because I hadn't heard from him all day and she

told me he had been arrested.

Q. Did you have any contact with the government that day?

A. No, I didn't have any contact with the government. Very

late that night I received a voice mail from an FBI agent on

my phone. He told me that Stan had been indicted on two

counts of arson.

Q. Did you have any conversation with Stan Meyerhoff in the

days that followed that?

A. The next day I went to Charlottesville to move Stan's car,

which had been left on campus -- oh, my car was actually there

as well, was in Charlottesville, so my friend drove me to

Charlottesville. I moved his car so it wouldn't get towed. I

got a copy of the search warrant that they had left at my

former house where he was living, and he -- I'm sorry, I

forgot the question. Did I have contact with him?

Q. Right.

A. He called me. He was on an agent's phone, and we had a
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733

very brief conversation in which I was yelling at him, and in

increasing hysterics, that he needed to get an attorney.

Q. Did you speak with the agent at all during that

conversation?

A. No.

Q. Did you have a conversation with him the day or two after

that with the agent?

A. During that conversation, Stan gave me the phone number

that he said was the agent's cell phone.

The next day, I called that number -- I think it was the

next day; it could have been a day or two later. It was --

let me see. I think the arrest happened on Thursday. That

was maybe Friday when I talked to Stan. It could have been as

long as Monday. But I talked to him that day and wanted to

know if Stan had retained counsel and where Stan was, And he

would not answer those questions.

Q. During any of those conversations, did you have any

substantive discussion about any arsons or any of the crimes

at issue?

A. Definitely not.

Q. After those conversations, when is the next time you had

any contact with the government?

A. Presidents' Day weekend, 2006. My father got a phone call

from the FBI, and he related the substance of that

conversation to me.
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Q. Just to be clear, do you recall when Presidents' Day

weekend was?

A. The dates? I think that the phone call -- I think

February 21st was the Tuesday, February 20 was Monday,

February 19th was Sunday. I think the phone call happened on

Saturday, February 18.

Q. What did he relay to you as the substance of that contact?

A. That I was likely to be indicted on one, if not two counts

of arson.

Q. Did he provide any details about the arson or people who

might have been involved?

A. No.

Q. What happened after that?

A. I spoke with an attorney, who I'd had some preliminary

conversations with, in Seattle. On Monday my father and I met

with that attorney. On Tuesday, the attorney and I met with

yourself and FBI.

Q. Were you promised anything or told anything before the

start of that meeting? Were you promised anything before the

start of that meeting?

A. No, I was not promised anything.

Q. What were you told?

A. I was told it would be better for me if I was forthcoming

about what had happened.

Q. After that, what happened during the course of that
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meeting?

A. I came in -- oh, I signed a piece of paper that said I

wasn't promised anything, and then -- and some other more

technical legal language. And someone, one of the FBI agents,

asked me where I was born, and the whole story came tumbling

out of my mouth.

Q. During the course of that meeting, who was providing the

information to him?

A. I was providing all of the information.

Q. Between the first phone call that took place on February

18 and that meeting on February 21st, were you involved in any

conversation or meeting in which anyone from the government

gave you any details about what they believed had happened in

any arson?

A. I'm sorry, from which point to which point?

Q. When your family received the phone call on February 18,

until three days later when you met with the government, were

you provided any information?

A. No. I would say to this day I haven't been provided any

significant information about anything that happened. I

haven't read any of the discovery that's not been in the court

case. I am relying on my memory alone.

Q. Mr. Bloom referred to something in the opening as a

reverse proffer. He said the government provides information

to you and then you give it back.
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736

Did you receive any information from the government about

what happened at the University of Washington arson?

A. No.

Q. Do you have any reason to believe that your attorney

received any information from the government about what

happened during the University of Washington arson?

A. No.

Q. I am going to ask you about one other thing. You've been

shown a number of pictures during the course of this

investigation; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Would you take a look at Exhibit 115. I think you've

already looked at this yesterday. It's been admitted.

MR. FRIEDMAN: Can you publish that, please?

BY MR. FRIEDMAN:

Q. Was that one of the pictures you were shown?

A. I believe it is, yes.

Q. Do you recall what you said when you were shown that

picture?

A. I said it was Justin Solondz.

Q. Would you take a look at Exhibit 115-A and tell me if you

recognize that?

A. I don't have that exhibit.

Q. Do you recall being shown that picture?

A. This picture is larger than the version I was shown.
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737

Q. Were you shown the same picture, just a little smaller?

A. I was shown this picture and, I believe, another picture

that were smaller.

MR. FRIEDMAN: The government offers Exhibit 115-A.

MR. BLOOM: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted.

(Exhibit No. 115-A admitted.)

BY MR. FRIEDMAN:

Q. Do you recall whether you recognized the person shown in

that picture when you were shown that?

A. When I was shown this picture, I did not know who this

was.

Q. Do you recognize it today, the person?

A. Blown up it looks quite a bit more like Justin, but not

especially, no.

Thank you. No more questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. Good morning.

A. Good morning.

Q. Have we ever met?

A. Have you and I ever met? I don't think so.

Q. My name is Robert Bloom.

A. Hello, Mr. Bloom.

Q. Attorney for Briana Waters.
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738

Have you met this man over here?

A. No, I haven't. I believe that must be Mr. Fox, but I have

never met him.

Q. Where would you have gotten that information?

A. I know that Briana's two attorneys are Mr. Bloom and

Mr. Fox.

Q. How do you know that?

A. I have read the pleadings in this case.

Q. How have you come to read the pleadings in this case?

A. My attorney sent them to me. When I was out, I read them

on my own.

Q. Did there come a time -- you say your attorney. Is that

Mr. Levy?

A. I have a number of people whom I seek legal advice from.

Q. Who are they?

A. Mr. Levy. I originally had a different attorney named

Mr. Offenbecher. I have spoken with a partner in my parent's

law firm named Mr. Matthew's. And both of my parents are

attorneys, Steve and Cheryl Phillabaum. And at different

points I have spoken with other lawyers.

Q. Did there come a time when Mr. Levy asked you if you would

speak to me or Mr. Fox?

A. No.

Q. He never did ask you that?

A. It was never clear to me that you had asked to speak with
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me. I know that you had some contact with my attorney,

Mr. Levy. My understanding is that you were requesting to

speak with him.

Q. It was not your understanding that we were also requesting

to speak to you; that was not your understanding?

A. No, I did not understand that, no.

Q. Do you have any reason, know any reason why Mr. Levy would

have written to us and said that "After further consultation

with my client, I do not see any point in a meeting. She will

not agree to an interview, nor will she release Peter

Offenbecher to discuss this case with you."

Do you remember having those kind of discussions with Mr.

Levy?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Mr. Levy suggest to you or say to you that we would

like to speak with you?

A. The main point of the conversation that I had with Mr.

Levy was you discussing with him. It may have been -- it's

possible that he told me that you wanted to meet with me. I

think if that had been relayed to me, it would have been

important to me that I be able to speak with Briana, and he

may have related to me that that was not a possibility. That

was -- to me -- I authorized him to evaluate with you, to make

a decision whether or not he should meet with you.

Q. Is there any reason that he would -- if that's so, can you
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740

think of any reason, or did he tell you any reason why he

would say to us that she -- you, Lacey Phillabaum -- will not

agree to an interview, nor will she release Peter Offenbecher

to discuss the case with you?

Do you have any reason to know why he would say such a

thing?

A. I authorized Mr. Levy to deal with the situation. My

understanding is it was primarily about him meeting with you.

I think if he talked about me meeting with you, I was clear I

was not willing to do that unless Briana was there.

Q. You did say that you were not willing to meet with us

unless Briana was there. You told that to Mr. Levy?

A. I believe I did.

Q. Let me get back to that in a little while. I wanted to

ask you about something you said yesterday. Mr. Friedman

asked you a question, early on in your examination yesterday,

and the question was: Do you bear any ill will toward Briana

Waters?

Do you remember that question?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you remember that your answer was that you have

sympathy for everyone in this case?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is there a reason you didn't answer the question as to

whether or not you bore any ill will toward Briana Waters?
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741

A. I bear no ill will toward Briana Waters.

Q. That's not my question. Is there a reason you didn't

answer the question?

A. I was speaking generally instead of specifically. I have

really, really cultivated compassion for everyone involved in

this case. It's something I work on.

Q. And that would be a good thing for you. The gentleman

sitting over there, Judge Burgess, he's going to be the person

who's going to be sentencing you; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And it's a nice thing for him to hear that you have

compassion for everyone. You know that, don't you?

A. I don't think being sympathetic to my coconspirators

necessarily helps me. I don't know. I am being honest. I am

not trying to say what only benefits me.

Q. Now back to the question of ill will toward Ms. Waters.

There came a time when you met Justin Solondz; is that

correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. You didn't call him Justin Solondz; you called him

something else, didn't you?

A. I don't know what I first knew him as, but I knew him as

Connor during the course of the arson.

Q. Did you meet Connor -- what year did you meet Connor?

A. I believe I met him in 2001, or during the action in
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Dusty, Washington.

Q. Who else was involved in the action in Dusty, Washington?

A. The people I remember for sure are Connor, myself, Chelsea

Gerlach, Suzanne Savoie. I think, I am sure that Nathan Block

and Joyanna Zacher were there. I think Daniel McGowan was

there, and I remember either Stan or Avalon being there, but I

am not sure which one.

Q. When was that activity?

A. That was, the Dusty action, I am not sure. I think we

established yesterday it was in 2000.

Q. Maybe August 1 or so of 2000, does that ring a bell?

A. The action rings a bell. The date is not particularly

significant in my mind.

Q. Would it have been in the summertime of the year 2000?

A. I couldn't place it during the season.

Q. So you met this person you knew as Connor sometime in the

year 2000; is that correct?

A. Yes. If that's when the action was, that's when I met

him.

Q. Where is Dusty, Washington? How far, with direction from,

let's say, Seattle?

A. I think it's in eastern Washington.

Q. It would go beyond the Cascade's, the central part of the

state?

A. I think it's near Pullman.
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Q. You named about seven or eight people who were involved,

or maybe more. Do you remember how you got to Dusty,

Washington?

A. No. I think I might have driven with Chelsea. One time I

-- no, both times I drove with Chelsea.

Q. In her car or your car?

A. Her car; yeah, her car.

Q. What kind of car was that?

A. A small car, compact car.

Q. Now, I think you said yesterday -- you made quite a big

point of it -- that going to these actions, you couldn't get a

car that was not associated with the activists. That

sometimes was a deal breaker.

She took her car to Dusty, Washington. That's what you

just told us.

A. No, she didn't take her car to the site. She drove us to

the area. We parked the vehicles in a parking lot away from

the area.

Q. Well, you didn't drive right to the site. Of course you

didn't put the car right at the site. But you drove to the

site, and one of the cars was her car, registered in her name,

right?

A. I don't believe that's correct.

Q. Well, tell us what you said. How did you get there? You

said you got there in her car.
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A. I drove to that area, that region, in Chelsea Gerlach's

car. We parked the car in a parking lot, and then we took

different cars to the site of the action.

Q. What cars did you take to the site of the action?

A. I don't know.

Q. Who drove?

A. I think that I might have been in Justin's car at that

point.

Q. Justin Solondz, the same person as Connor; is that

correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Registered in his name, right?

A. I don't know anything about the registration of that car.

I associated the car with him for some reason.

Q. Did it have a New Jersey license plate?

A. I don't think I would have been looking at that.

Q. Do you have any idea what kind of car it was?

A. I believe it was an SUV. I thought it was maybe a 4

Runner.

Q. Whatever it was, it was his car that you took to an

action; is that correct?

A. As you pointed out, Dusty, Washington, is in far -- very

rural Washington. And this was pulling plants out of the

ground. It wasn't really high level -- it was sort of an

introductory thing, frankly.
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Q. So it didn't matter if you got caught and his car was

identified?

A. I think because the area was so rural, people were

comfortable. But I don't know, because I didn't particularly

play a role in planning that aspect.

Q. That would be different from taking a car to an arson; is

that correct?

A. It would be significantly different, yes.

Q. You know, don't you, from reading the pleadings, that the

allegation is that Justin's car was used at the Jefferson

Poplar Farm on May 21 of the year 2001. Justin's car, in his

name. You know that, don't you?

A. No, I don't remember that particular detail in the

pleadings.

Q. If that was true, that would indeed put a lie to what you

just said, wouldn't it?

A. I don't think that demonstrates a lie. I think that

demonstrates that things didn't always work to ideal

circumstances.

Q. Does it demonstrate that to go to the arson, the car,

belonging to Justin Solondz, was used in perpetrating the

arson at Jefferson Poplar Farm, a car in his name?

A. Okay, I will tell you this. Like I said, cars were often

the linchpin. Coming by a number of completely anonymous cars

was very difficult. I cannot speak to what happened at
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Jefferson Poplar Farm because I was not there and I do not

know what happened there.

Q. You were involved in planning the so-called double whammy,

were you not?

A. No.

Q. Is there any reason that your fiancee would say that you

are -- that you were, rather? Can you think of any reason why

he would tell law enforcement that you in fact were involved

in the planning of the double whammy, if that were not true?

A. He may remember differently. As far as I am concerned, I

was involved at the last minute. And there was a plan that

was revealed to me. I would prefer to say I was not involved

in the planning, but I have to acknowledge that certain

planning details were worked out while I was there. The

question of how much fuel to use. I questioned a decision

which had already been made about how to approach the

building.

So, someone could have -- Stan, I imagine, has a different

memory of what happened than I do.

Q. Well, you have just told us how you in fact were involved

in the planning of the event, the double event. Did you just

not tell us that about how much fuel was used and other

issues? You just told us that just now. Isn't that part of

planning?

A. Yes. That could fairly be called planning. I think a
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747

significant portion of the plan had been established before I

was involved and was revealed to me afterwards.

Q. And yet you have told us that you had input into refining

the planning, is that fair to say?

A. That would be fair to say. It's not how I would phrase

it, but you could say that.

Q. So, is it fair to say you were aware of the fact that

Justin's car, in his name, was going to be used for that event

at Clatskanie?

A. No, sir. I had no idea what was happening at Jefferson

Poplar Farm until after it happened.

Q. You just work here, right? You have no idea.

A. Sorry --

Q. Withdrawn.

Let's get back to Justin Solondz, or Connor, as you knew

him. You knew him sometime at first -- did you meet him at

the event at Dusty, Washington?

A. I believe that was the first time I ever took note of him.

Q. Was there any flirting going on between the two of you?

A. No.

Q. None?

A. No.

Q. Did there ever come a time when you were at the place

where he lived?

A. During one of the two weekends, when I spent time in
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748

Olympia, I went briefly to a bus that I believed that he lived

in.

Q. And who else went to the bus that you believed he lived

in?

A. Just Justin.

Q. So just you and Justin were at his place of residence; is

that correct?

A. That's correct, sir.

Q. Could you describe that bus?

A. It was a short bus, I think. I'm not sure.

Q. Well, think about it.

A. Okay. It was renovated to be a living space, and it was a

short bus.

Q. A small space; is that correct?

A. That's correct. It usually is when you live in a bus.

Q. How did you come to go to that place with him?

A. I think Justin took me there.

Q. For what reason did he take you there?

A. I am not sure. I think he needed to get something.

Q. He what?

A. I think he needed to get something.

Q. What was it that he needed to get?

A. I am sorry, I don't have any idea.

Q. How long did you and he stay there?

A. A short period of time.
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749

Q. How short?

A. Well, it's hard to be exact about something like that, but

I would say an hour or less.

Q. I am sorry, an hour or less?

A. Yes, probably less.

Q. Give us your best estimate of how much time you and he

spent at his place of residence?

A. Probably less than an hour.

Q. What did he get? What was it that he went to get?

A. I am sorry, I don't know.

Q. Was there a reason that he asked you to come along? Is

there something that was heavy and he needed another person to

help him carry it?

A. No. I think we were together for some other reason

already.

Q. So he said, "Let's go to my place. There's something I

have to get"?

A. I don't have a particular memory of that, but that sounds

approximately correct.

Q. While the two of you were there, what did he do in that

less than one hour?

A. I am sorry, I don't have any particular memory of what he

did. At some point there was this idea that we might take a

nap there.

Q. "That we might take a nap," did you say?
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750

A. Well, neither of us had slept very much. So I remember

being on his bed, and we didn't end up falling asleep. We

ended up deciding to leave, and we left.

Q. You had some interaction with him?

A. Um --

Q. You laugh?

A. Yeah, I think it's funny. I am sorry. I think the

implication is that I had some sort of sexual interaction with

him, and that's not correct.

Q. But you were at his cabin, where -- is there even any room

to sit anywhere other than the bed?

A. I am sorry, I don't have a particular memory of the layout

of his bus.

Q. But you remember the bed?

A. I remember being on a bed. It was at the end of the bus,

I remember that.

Q. And you remember that you and he were discussing taking a

nap; is that correct?

A. I don't think it was a long discussion.

Q. And in fact, did he take a nap?

A. I am not sure he ever laid down on the bed.

Q. Do you remember the first day that you spoke with -- I am

sorry, the second day that you spoke with law enforcement

officials here, including Agent Halla? That's Agent Halla at

the end there; is that correct?
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751

A. That's correct.

Q. Do you remember telling him that in fact Justin took a

nap -- I am sorry, Connor took a nap while you were there with

him?

A. No, I don't remember telling him that. I am not trying to

say I didn't tell him that, but I may have discussed the fact

that I went to the bus with Justin. But I am unclear whether

or not Justin was on the bed.

Q. When you say you were together, you may have been together

for other reasons before that, or just before that, and that's

why you went with him. What were you doing just before that?

A. Errands.

Q. What kind of errands?

A. I don't have a particular memory.

Q. And it was just the two of you?

A. Yes.

Q. And how long were you together before you went to his bus?

A. I am sorry, I can't say.

Q. Do you remember what day of the week it was?

A. It would have been Saturday or Sunday, I believe.

Q. And that would be the weekend of the arson, or the weekend

before the arson?

A. I think that would be the weekend before the arson.

Q. Do you know where his bus -- I am sorry, it's called a

bus. Do you know where it was in relation to, let's say, the
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center of Olympia?

A. No. I don't know Olympia at all.

Q. Well, was it in a rural area or urban area?

A. I think it was a more rural area.

Q. Did you drive there?

A. I believe we drove there in his car.

Q. That would be his SUV; is that correct?

A. I think so, yes.

Q. That would be the weekend of the arson?

A. No, I think it was the weekend before.

Q. I am sorry, you did say that. I am sorry.

And you are unable to tell us how long you were with him

on that day?

A. That's correct.

Q. Now, by that time -- we are talking about May of 2001 --

is it fair to say that you had known him for several months?

A. A more accurate thing to say would be that I had met him

once prior.

Q. And you had not seen him in between?

A. Let's see. Oh, I think I saw him once in between.

Q. And when was that?

A. Maybe twice.

Q. Maybe twice?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. When was that?
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753

A. I saw him once at a meeting, prior to the University of

Washington arson; and I saw him one other time in Eugene, very

briefly.

Q. How did that come to be? What was that event about?

A. Which?

Q. Eugene.

A. He was with some other people. I saw him and I waved, and

he went on.

Q. So you are telling the jury, between the time you pulled

up some crops in Dusty, Washington, until the time of the

arson, you maybe saw him casually twice in between?

A. That's correct.

Q. And you had no intimate relations with him?

A. I never had intimate relations with him.

Q. Well, isn't it a fact there came a point in time that

Briana Waters said to you, how dare you, how dare you have an

affair with my boyfriend?

A. No.

Q. Isn't it a fact that there came a time when she was told

by her boyfriend, Justin, who you call Connor, that in fact

there had been intimate relations between you and her

boyfriend? Did you come to learn that from Ms. Waters, that

he, Justin, had so informed Ms. Waters?

A. I don't think so. I was under the impression that they

had broken up.
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Q. That's basically your story when it comes to your getting

involved with other womens' men. That's just what you told

the law enforcement people. The very first day that you spoke

to them, you said Chelsea Gerlach, who was Meyerhoff's

girlfriend, that they were just breaking up. You told them

that, didn't you?

A. I am sorry, could you repeat that question?

Q. Yes. Your MO is that you make a decision that this man is

breaking up with this woman, so this man, it's okay for me to

go after this man. That's the way you operate, isn't it?

A. No.

Q. In fact, is there bad blood between you and Chelsea

Gerlach because of the way you dealt with the relationship,

you interfered with the relationship between her and Stan

Meyerhoff?

A. I don't think -- they were broken up when Stan and I

started dating. Chelsea and I have an uneasy relationship

because it's a strong relationship. The fact that I have

spent a number of years with her ex-boyfriend is a factor in

that, but it's not an important factor.

When you say my MO, I feel like my sexual history is on

trial. But it's obviously irrelevant to the question of

whether or not Briana Waters was at the University of

Washington arson.

Q. Well, I think that's something the jury is going to have
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to determine, whether or not you have ill will toward

Ms. Waters. That was the question that you were asked

yesterday, a question that you did not answer. Do you

understand that?

A. Again, I don't bear Briana Waters any ill will.

Q. You didn't say again; you didn't say that yesterday. Now

is the first time you say that you don't bear her any ill

will.

A. No. At the beginning of this cross-examination you asked

me that question at least twice. I tried to answer it with

the same meaning each time. I don't bear her any ill will.

Q. Isn't it a fact that she called you all kinds of names

when she found out that you had cheated with Justin? She

called you irresponsible. She called you unprincipled. She

called you disrespectful of women and a person who is not

worthy of being an activist in the cause of the betterment of

humanity. Things like that. She told you that, did she not?

A. Actually, I am starting to remember a conversation along

those lines. My general memory of that, over the course of

the weekend, was that I went to Avalon and said: What is

going on? Can I really be involved in this action? This

person seems to be upset. You are asking me to put a lot of

trust in this person. I told him that Justin had told me that

they were broken up, and I kind of remember that raised his

eyebrow.
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Q. What do you mean, raised his eyebrow?

A. That maybe it wasn't his understanding that they were

broken up. And -- I am sorry, what was the question?

Q. I actually don't remember. It was whether or not -- let

me just ask you another question.

A. I have to say that's really vague; and the whole idea of

being grilled by Briana, that's reaching for me to remember

that. It's a very hazy thing.

Q. Was it hazy because that was during the period you were

using marijuana?

A. No.

Q. Was it hazy because it's something you don't really like

to hear, that people call you unprincipled?

A. No, that's not why it's hazy. It's hazy because it was a

confusing interaction with me to start with, because I

understood they were broken up and I hadn't had sex with him.

I don't think, if she was accusing me of that, she was clear

about that. I never had sexual interactions with Justin.

Q. You just watched him take a nap -- I am sorry, you

discussed with him taking a nap at his bus when you were alone

with him in that bus?

A. That's correct.

Q. No sexual interaction?

A. That's correct.

Q. I would ask you to look at the record of an interview --
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withdrawn.

Now, you say that your recollection of these events was

that it happened on the weekend that you committed the arson;

is that correct? The conversation with Avalon.

A. No, I am not sure which weekend that happened.

Q. Well, when was it? Try to think about it, and tell us

when was the conversation with Avalon?

A. I am sorry, sir, it's difficult for me to distinguish

between the two times when I was in Olympia. I don't know.

Q. You were able to do that pretty well yesterday, isn't that

correct, distinguish between the two times?

A. I am not sure. I don't know, did I do it well yesterday?

Q. Well, you did. And you told us, you told the jury certain

dates, certain times, certain locations, certain people

regarding the weekend before the arson and the weekend of the

arson. Do you remember testifying to that; is that correct?

A. I testified about the arson yesterday, yes.

Q. And those other details as well; is that correct?

A. I have tried to be as detailed as I can, yes.

Q. How many times have you gone over your testimony with Mr.

Friedman or Mr. Bartlett, or both?

A. Over the course of the events that happened? Over the two

weekends?

Q. Let me make it clear. Have you discussed with

Mr. Friedman before yesterday, have you gone over what he was
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going to ask you as a witness in this courtroom?

A. Yes.

Q. And when did you do that? How many times did you do that?

A. I would say one time completely through, and abbreviated

versions at other times.

Q. How many abbreviated versions at other times?

A. I think two other times he's asked me.

Q. When was the date, approximately, that you went over it

beginning to end?

A. Let's see. The 9th of this month -- of last month, the

9th of January.

Q. About five weeks ago, would you say?

A. Yeah.

Q. What location was that?

A. At the Sea-Tac Bureau of Prisons, F.D.C.

Q. How much time did you spend with him on that day?

A. Let's see. We did it quickly, maybe two-and-a-half, three

hours.

Q. And the abbreviated times, when were they?

A. Let's see. Sometime last week he asked me in more detail

some of the questions.

Q. In more detail, you say? Is that what you just said?

A. We went through it more slowly.

Q. More slowly?

A. Uh-huh.
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Q. Where was that location?

A. Last week, that was at Sea-Tac F.D.C.

Q. How much time did you spend with him on that day?

A. We didn't spend very long on that, but I spent a number of

hours with him that day.

Q. I am missing you. You didn't spend much time --

A. We didn't spend much time on that, the abbreviated going

over the questions again, but I spent a significant amount of

time with him that day.

Q. Talking about the case?

A. Talking about my concerns, talking about all sorts of

issues, yeah.

Q. I want to go back to what you remember about Briana

Waters, if anything, Briana Waters saying things to you that

were unpleasant to hear, accusing you of being an unprincipled

person. I want to go back to that.

Do you regard yourself as a feminist?

A. Yeah, I would call myself a feminist.

Q. Do you remember Briana Waters excoriating you for your

conduct with regard to her boyfriend as being very much

anti-woman and anti-feminist?

A. I didn't remember that until you -- you know, basically

that language you are using is familiar to me, and that

reminds me that happened. I didn't have an independent memory

of that until you mentioned it.
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Again, I will just reiterate that if she excoriated me, I

did not realize that Justin Solondz was her boyfriend. In

fact, Justin told me otherwise.

Q. I am sorry?

A. Justin told me otherwise. Not in the course of, you

know, in the course of building a friendship. He told me that

he was going through problems with his ex-girlfriend, who was

unhappy because they broke up.

Q. This was the same time that you were planning and

committing an arson, isn't that correct, in the same time

period?

A. Over the course of weekends that I spent there, I came to

understand that he was having tension with this close friend

who he had been in a relationship with, and they were

transitioning out of that relationship.

Q. That's what you say he told you?

A. That is what I say he told me, yes.

Q. Am I correct that you are now seeming to recall that there

was some unkind things said to you by Briana Waters relating

to what she regarded as your having a sexual affair with her

boyfriend? Are you recalling that now?

A. Just to make it clear, you've triggered a very hazy memory

of something that could have happened. Generally, I wouldn't

put such a hazy memory out there without being much more sure

of it. But that sounds somewhat familiar to me, yes.
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Q. When you were asked the question yesterday, and again

today, about bearing any ill will toward Briana Waters, is it

fair to say that it would be a normal human reaction to bear

some ill will toward a person who was calling you really

unpleasant names, names that -- not dirty words, but

pinpointing or describing your unprincipled behavior, and

somebody as to whom you might want to -- think you might be

feeling some ill will? If I were to call you those names, you

wouldn't like that, would you?

A. There was a number of questions there.

Q. You are right, and I am going to withdraw them all and try

to make it clearer.

A. Okay.

Q. It seems to me your memory of being excoriated by Briana

Waters is now being somewhat revived or being refreshed; is

that fair to say?

A. I don't have any independent memory of that. You have

reminded me of something hazy in the back of my mind. So

hazy, I wouldn't normally acknowledge it, put it out there

without being much more sure of it.

Q. And is it your testimony that however hazy that memory

might be, that that would not, in any way, have triggered, in

your mind, some ill will from you to Briana Waters?

A. I think if I felt that there was a genuine

misunderstanding happening, I wouldn't bear ill will. I also,
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you know, because I have conflict with people, doesn't mean

that I hate them.

Q. If somebody called you an unprincipled slut, or words to

that effect, do you think you might bear ill will toward such

a person?

A. If such a person had information that was inaccurate, I

would not bear ill will towards that person.

Q. What if a person had information that was accurate, based

on the fact that you had spent time in the bus, in his bed,

would that make a difference?

A. If I was an unprincipled slut, would it bother me to be

called that?

Q. Yes.

A. I don't know, because I am not an unprincipled slut.

Q. And that's not what happened, you weren't called that in

so many words by Briana Waters?

A. I don't have a particular -- unprincipled sounds familiar.

Slut, I don't know.

Q. And who is Jeff Hogg?

A. Jeff Hogg is my ex-boyfriend.

Q. Another ex-boyfriend -- I am sorry. How many

ex-boyfriends have you had since 1996?

MR. FRIEDMAN: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Is this thing relevant about this case?

MR. BLOOM: Of course, Judge, this is a woman who
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cheated.

THE COURT: I don't need you to editorialize

anything. I want you to -- if we are talking about a point in

time over the timeframe, let's keep it to that. Let's not do

a life history here.

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. Your relationship, you have no respect of the boundaries

that women have with their men. If a man interests you,

that's fair game, is that fair to say?

A. No.

Q. Jeff Hogg, ex-boyfriend, right?

A. That's correct.

Q. And he's now with somebody named Cecilia; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And they have a baby; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And you, while you are in jail, are able to make telephone

calls; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. You are able to send e-mails; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And have you made telephone calls to their home?

A. No.

Q. Have you sent e-mails to their home?

A. I don't know what computer Jeff uses to read my e-mails.
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Q. Have you sent e-mails to him?

A. Yes.

Q. How many?

A. I don't know.

Q. What month was it, or date, that you -- I think you

described it as self surrendered. Is that the correct phrase?

A. I don't know what the correct phrase is.

Q. How would you describe the day that you decided to start

doing your time?

A. How would I describe it? Self-surrender is what I call

it.

Q. Self what?

A. I think there's a slightly different term the BOP uses.

Q. So when I just said self-surrender and you didn't

recognize the term, it's a term that you used, right?

A. I didn't know if you were trying to get to the technical

BOP term.

Q. You turned yourself in so you could start doing your time

for which you are getting credit now; is that correct?

A. I hop so.

Q. You've not been sentenced yet; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. In fact, your sentence keeps getting put off, doesn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. And the reason it gets put off is until after Briana
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Waters' trial is over?

A. That's correct, yeah.

Q. And that's happened maybe twice?

A. I think so, yes.

Q. And you've been ready for sentence, and then you come to

learn that Briana's trial is going to be put over to another

date, to a later date, right? And then your sentence will be

put over until after that; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. So they have that, is it correct, in your mind, they have

that hanging over your head; that you won't get sentenced

until you come in here and you testify against Briana Waters?

A. That's correct.

Q. We will get back to that in a little while. But for now,

you have, what's called self surrendered -- what month was

that?

A. I self-surrendered in January 2007.

Q. A little over a year ago?

A. A little over a year ago.

Q. In that period of time, how many e-mails have you sent to

Jeff Hogg, your former boyfriend?

A. Let's see, maybe 30; I am not sure.

Q. And is it correct to say, has he sent e-mails back to you?

A. We communicate.

Q. And it's legitimate, you don't have to do it in a
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clandestine way. The jail knows, they have such a program

where they -- where they permit e-mail communication with a

prisoner and somebody on the outside?

A. That's correct.

Q. And I presume that they censor it, they clear both

incoming and outgoing, correct?

A. That's what I think. But they don't tell me how they do

things at the BOP.

Q. But you assume that's true?

A. I assume that's accurate.

Q. These approximately 30 e-mails that you've sent to Jeff,

has he responded and told you that Cecilia is not at all happy

with your contacts with him?

A. I don't know if he did that in those e-mails. I know that

Cecilia doesn't like our interaction, that's true.

Q. But she being a woman and he being your ex-boyfriend, it

doesn't matter to you what she thinks, does it?

A. Jeff Hogg has been a dear friend for 14, 15 years.

Q. Has he made it clear that his partner, his life partner, a

woman who has born his child, does not want you to be in touch

with him? Has he made that clear to you?

A. I know that Cecilia doesn't like me. Yeah, I know that

she doesn't want me to be in touch with him, and I also know

that Jeff wants to be in touch with me.

Q. So it pleases you, you get support from him, is that
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correct, emotional support?

A. I get friendship from him.

Q. Do you have any kind of arrangement with him where he will

give you support of one kind or another and you do something

in return?

A. No, other than friendship. That's what friendship is.

Q. Are you aware whether or not he has been involved in

activities that might be questionable?

A. Jeff went to the book club meetings.

Q. Have you told that to anyone before just now?

A. Yes.

Q. You told it to the authorities?

A. Yes.

Q. There's no arrangement between you two, that you will go

no further than that, than saying he went to the book club

meetings, if he remains in support of you?

A. No, there's no arrangement between us.

Q. So as of now, we've so far talked about Chelsea Gerlach

and Stan Meyerhoff, your present fiancee, they were breaking

up so it was okay for you to take up with him. We have that,

right?

A. I am sorry --

Q. Was that your position, that Chelsea Gerlach and Stan

Meyerhoff had been a couple for quite some time -- is that

correct, were a couple for quite some time?
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768

A. They were a couple for quite some time.

Q. And there came a time when he became your boyfriend and

then your fiance; is that correct?

A. Eventually, yes.

Q. Are you married to him?

A. No.

Q. Do you wear a wedding ring?

A. I have a band on my finger that signifies our engagement.

Q. Does he have one too?

A. No.

Q. Is it an engagement ring or does it look like a wedding

ring?

A. Um, the band on my finger?

Q. Yes.

A. It's like a dime store thing that I bought.

Q. And you wear it on your -- this finger?

A. I wear it on my ring finger, yes.

Q. So you are very closely and intimately involved with him;

is that correct?

A. Stan and I have been partners for seven years.

Q. I am sorry?

A. Stan and I have been together for seven years.

Q. And did it come as a shock to you when you learned that he

was telling the authorities about your criminal activity?

A. I don't know what Stan told the authorities about my
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769

criminal activities to this day. That Stan cooperated was

probably less shocking than the arrest happening altogether.

But it was, you know, upsetting, definitely.

Q. From the time he was arrested, December 7, to the time you

first spoke to law enforcement, February 21 of '06,

approximately two plus months, did you visit him in jail at

any time?

A. Before I spoke to the FBI?

Q. Yes.

A. I think I had seen him once.

Q. And did he inform you at that time that he had been giving

information to the FBI about you?

A. When I saw him?

Q. Yes.

A. No.

Q. Did there come a time when he told you he was giving

information to the FBI?

A. He said something during that very brief phone

conversation I had with him, the day after, something very,

like fatalistic, that was concerning to me, and I remember

clearly having a conversation with him where he told me I

betrayed everyone.

Q. And by betrayed, you took that to mean what?

A. That he was cooperating with the authorities.

Q. And did there come a time when you came to believe or
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understand or know that he had betrayed you?

A. I don't know what Stan has told them about me. Initially

I didn't want to say to him, do you remember the time you

drove me to Olympia and dropped me off so I would go to an

arson, because I didn't really want to trigger that memory.

Since then we haven't talked in particular about whether

or not he testified against me or cooperated against me. At

times I thought he did and at times I thought he didn't, and I

truly don't know.

Q. Did there come a time when he told you that he was talking

to the FBI and naming names, and you went, like pointing to

yourself, and he nodded his head? Did something like that

happen?

A. That might be true, yes.

Q. When did that happen?

A. That might have happened in that visit.

Q. At that visit in jail?

A. I think I pointed to myself. I was trying to get from him

whether or not definitely.

Q. Whether or not he was telling the police, law enforcement

officials, about his fiancee's involvement in criminal

activity. That's what you were trying to find out from him;

is that correct?

A. We weren't engaged at that point, but yes.

Q. He was your boyfriend at that time?
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A. Yes, I wanted to know -- yes.

Q. It was difficult to communicate, and it still is when you

do communicate, because the authorities -- you believe that

the authorities listen to and/or read the interactions between

you and other people?

A. Yes, I have that. I don't have any communication with

Stan right now, and I haven't had unmonitored communication

with Stan since he was arrested.

Q. You haven't had unmonitored?

A. Since he was arrested.

Q. You would always be concerned that you would have to be

very cautious about how you said things and what you said, is

that fair to say?

A. No. Most of my conversations aren't something where it

would be a concern whether or not it was monitored.

Q. You keep it general and personal as opposed to talking

about criminal defense; is that correct?

A. We have -- yeah.

Q. Have you belonged to an organization that would be

described as a zero population organization?

A. I don't think so. I don't know.

Q. I am sorry, you don't think so?

A. Do you mean like -- no, I don't think so.

Q. Meaning no children; that there are enough people on the

earth that people shouldn't have children.
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772

MR. FRIEDMAN: Objection, Your Honor, this is

irrelevant.

MR. BLOOM: It is not irrelevant.

THE COURT: I don't know if it is or not because I

don't know where you are headed with this, and I don't want

you to explain it at this point in time.

Can we go on with something else and I will take it up at

the break?

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. You know, do you not, from looking at her website that

Ms. Waters has a child, a three-year-old child? You know

that, do you not?

A. I know she has a child.

Q. Am I correct that there have been times when you have

expressed disdain for people who have children and called them

breeders, in a derogatory manner?

A. I don't think I have called people breeders.

Q. Have you thought, in those terms, that people should not

have children?

A. There were always people involved in Earth First who felt

that because overpopulation is a significant environmental

issue, that the key was to not have children. That was never

a particular belief of mind. Just generally, I don't think

that -- it seems like kind of bizarre to think that if you had

a vasectomy, therefore you would solve the environmental
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problems of the environment. I never really supported that

idea.

Q. And you are not a person who has referred to people with

children as breeders?

A. I am not saying the word never came out of my mouth, but I

don't think -- it's not what I think of people who have

children.

Q. Now, you are a person who grew up in a fairly well-to-do

home; is that correct?

A. No.

Q. Your parents are both partners a law firm, a successful

law firm in Spokane?

A. They are now.

Q. They have been lawyers for quite some time?

A. My father has been a lawyer for a long time, and my mother

finished law school when I was in junior high. There was four

of us, and my father's sole practitioner business was not

immediately successful. So I don't consider that I grew up

rich and spoiled.

Q. Well, did I say rich and spoiled?

A. No, you didn't say that.

Q. Did you grow up in an upper middle class home?

A. No, I would say we were middle class during my youth.

Q. Do you remember when you were an editor for the Earth

First Journal? Do you remember that period?
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A. Of course, yes.

Q. Do you remember writing some pieces for the Earth First

Journal?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember writing: As much as I rage against it, my

family is upper middle class, white and typical?

A. By the time I wrote that, my family probably would be

considered upper middle class.

Q. That would be March of 1997?

A. Yes.

Q. You didn't say that they were upper middle class now.

A. They are upper -- I mean, I don't know how much my parents

earn. I think they are upper middle class. That would be

fair probably in most people's terms.

Q. You said a few moments ago you are not spoiled and rich;

is that correct?

A. I said I didn't grow up spoiled and rich, but neither am I

spoiled and rich.

Q. And you grew up in Spokane; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. You were a good student; you are a smart person?

A. I was a good student, yes.

Q. You were on the debating team?

A. Yes.

Q. And you spent some of your time as a racing skier; is that
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correct?

A. I ski raced as a child, yes.

Q. When you went to -- is it University of Oregon?

A. I am sorry, what?

Q. The college was where?

A. I went to the University of Oregon.

Q. Were you on the debating team there?

A. Well, between working part-time to pay for my tuition, the

student loans I was taking out, my parents' support and the

academic scholarships that I had, I was pretty focused on my

studies and was not able to continue to be at the University

of Oregon.

Q. Were you a debater in high school?

A. Yes. And I did debate, I think, my first quarter at the

University of Oregon.

Q. So you have debating skills; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you are a writer, that's correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. A journalist?

A. That's correct.

Q. And you have a way with words, do you not?

A. Yeah. That didn't sound like I did, but yes.

Q. I am sorry?

A. That didn't sound very eloquent, but yes.
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Q. You have a way with the written word and spoken word; is

that correct?

A. I feel like I have kind of lost my public speaking

abilities, but, yes, I was practiced at public speaking when I

was in high school and I was quite good at it, yes.

Q. Well, you have an audience of 14 people here, before whom

you are speaking. Now, you know that, don't you? You are

very conscious of that.

A. Yes.

Q. As you say, you haven't been sentenced yet. Correct me if

I am wrong. The deal you have is that the best sentence you

can get is three years in prison, and the worst sentence you

can get is five years in prison, if the deal -- if you stay

with the deal. Is that your understanding?

A. My understanding is that it's a closed deal, and the best

sentence I can get is three years, and the longest I could do

is five.

Q. Is it correct to say it's Judge Burgess that will be

sentencing you?

A. Yes.

Q. It was before him that you pleaded guilty?

A. That's correct.

Q. Is it correct that one of the things, one of the inputs in

your sentence is what these men, sitting at this table, tell

the man sitting up there on the bench about what they
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recommend?

A. That's my understanding how it usually works, yes.

Q. So, is it fair to say that you have a high degree of

incentive to please the people sitting at this table with your

testimony?

A. I am not particularly motivated by my plea agreement. My

plea agreement, I am committed to fulfilling. I feel my

emotional and moral commitment is due to my responsibility to

the researchers.

Q. You know what, could I just ask you to repeat the last

part and pull the microphone a little closer?

A. Yeah.

Q. Thank you.

A. I am committed to the plea agreement and my emotional and

moral commitment, which really has really driven me to be

fully honest to the researchers who I victimized.

Q. And it's not relevant to you whether you get three years

or five years?

A. It's of course relevant to me. I'd rather do three years

in prison than five, but I can do no more than five years,

even if I were to come in here and testify unconvincingly.

Q. What if you were to testify that I made it up about Briana

Waters, I wasn't telling the truth, and I am not telling the

truth? Would it be three years or five years, or the deal is

over and 35 years?
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A. The deal would be over if I said that I lied.

Q. So, your story that you told, beginning in February of

2006, that Briana Waters was involved in the arson that you

committed, that's "the truth," that's what you have to testify

to to keep your deal, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And it's also true, if I ask you or Mr. Friedman asks you,

are you telling the truth, of course you are going to say,

yes, I am telling the truth? That's part of your

understanding, right, not only tell the truth, but say you are

telling the truth?

A. They are one and the same to me.

Q. Now, I notice that yesterday and today you are wearing, I

guess, what would be called prison attire?

A. That's correct.

Q. Where are you, at Sea-Tac?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Is that a federal facility?

A. That's a Federal Detention Center.

Q. Is it your understanding that you had to wear prison

clothes to come and testify?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you discuss with Mr. Friedman whether or not you could

wear street clothes, civilian clothes?

A. I wanted to wear street clothes, yes.
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Q. And how was it -- who said you can't?

A. I don't know why I could not. Mr. Friedman told me it

would be important for me not to be wearing street clothes, as

though I were trying to deceive about where I am.

Q. Trying to deceive. Did Mr. Friedman tell you anything,

like you would look more sympathetic and tragic if you wore

prison clothes?

A. I didn't want to look sympathetic and tragic. I wanted to

look normal.

Q. That's what you wanted. My question is, did he say to

you, no, I want you to look pathetic, because that way the

jury will relate to you better?

A. No, he definitely never said anything about sympathy.

Q. But in someway or another, the authorities were

responsible for how you come to court, how you are dressed

when you come to court, no civilian clothes; is that correct?

A. Yes, I am not wearing civilian clothes. It was conveyed

to me I shouldn't wear civilian clothes. I think an effort

would have had to have been made to put me in civilian

clothes.

Q. A little louder?

A. I think an effort would have had to be made for me to be

able to wear civilian clothes also.

Q. And the other would be your family or your friends --

A. I think the BOP would have had to approve of it, but I
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don't know.

Q. I'm sorry?

A. I think the BOP or the judge or someone would have had to

approve it. A request would have to be made to someone, I

don't know, and that would have to be approved. And I don't

know what the criteria was, and it wasn't that important to

me.

Q. And is it, in your mind, that that wouldn't have been

easily dealt with by a request in to the judge or to the

Bureau of Prisons or whomever?

A. I don't deal with the BOP very much. Nothing is easily

dealt with by the BOP.

Q. What I'm saying, if you wanted to wear civilian clothes --

and you told that to Mr. Friedman; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And for reasons you don't know, that got nixed. They said

it's not going to happen, you are going to wear jail clothes?

A. The reason that I was told was that because I did not want

to be up here, to be hiding that I was in prison or hiding

anything.

Q. It didn't occur to you that somebody, like me, or Mr. Fox,

would ask if you are in jail? The question wouldn't have come

up. You thought you would have just stood there -- or sat

there, rather, in civilian clothes, and it wouldn't have come

up about where you are living?
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A. I don't know.

Q. Was that in your mind?

A. I thought it would be -- I don't know what the standard

protocol is. I thought it would be out there that I was in

prison, yes.

Q. And you in fact put it on your website, that you were self

surrendering, a little over a year ago and that you were going

to be in jail?

A. My friends put it on that website. I didn't put it there,

but they did.

Q. You are aware, it's public information that you have been

in jail for a little over a year?

A. Yes.

Q. Now you say you haven't been in touch with Jennifer Kolar

since the arson?

A. No. One time after the arson I saw her.

Q. I am sorry, you did say that. When was that?

A. At a meeting in Sisters, Oregon, shortly after the arson.

Q. That was a book club meeting?

A. Yeah.

Q. About how long after the book club meeting was that?

A. I am not sure. I think it was shortly thereafter, a

number of days.

Q. A week, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, in that range?

A. Closer to a week than four weeks, but I don't know.
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Q. That was in a small town in Oregon called Sisters?

A. That's correct.

Q. Was it near where you were living?

A. No, I wasn't living there at the time.

Q. Where were you living?

A. I lived in Eugene through December 2001.

Q. So you were there about a week after, a week or so after

the arson; is that correct?

A. At a meeting, yes.

Q. So you were still into book clubs -- what's also called

incubator meetings; isn't that correct?

A. I never heard that term before the pleadings. I think I

saw it in the pleadings.

Q. Let's call it book club meetings. The reason it was

called book club, they didn't want to call it arson club,

right?

A. No, it wasn't arson club.

Q. It was about actions and how radical environmentalists,

such as yourself, were going to bring down the

anti-environment establishment, is that what those meetings

were about?

A. It was also about philosophy and, yes, I was a radical

environmentalist.

Q. So a week after that -- let me withdraw that.

The day after the arson, you saw newspaper articles,
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television reports about the arson; is that correct?

A. Yes, I think so.

Q. Was it then that you started to feel bad about the arson

and the results of it and the books that were lost?

A. No. I kind of freaked out when I heard the firefighters,

and I at first didn't read about the books that were lost and

the other facilities that were involved.

Q. Please keep your voice up.

A. Oh, okay.

Q. Whatever it was you felt, you weren't feeling remorse at

the time you went to the book club meeting in Sisters, were

you?

A. I don't know what I felt at that time.

Q. You were still into it; is that correct?

A. Into arson, no.

Q. No, into the book club meeting and theorizing how to

undermine the corporate establishment.

A. I was still radical at that point, yes.

Q. Who else was at that meeting?

A. Also at that meeting was Nathan Block, Joy Zacher, Chelsea

Gerlach, myself, Jeff Hogg. A woman named Diana Robin. Jen

Kolar came at some point.

Q. I am sorry?

A. Jen Kolar came at some point.

Did I say Stan Meyerhoff?
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Q. You didn't say that.

A. Daniel McGowan.

THE COURT: Let's stop at this point.

MR. BLOOM: Can I just ask one question?

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. Briana Waters, was she there?

A. No.

THE COURT: Let's take the morning recess. Of course

you don't discuss the case. Leave your books on the chair,

and I will have you back in here.

THE CLERK: All rise. Court is in recess.

(Morning recess.)

(Jury not present.)

THE COURT: You may be seated. Ready to continue,

Mr. Bloom?

MR. BLOOM: Yes, I am.

(Jury present.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

Mr. Bloom.

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. We left off with the meeting at Sisters, Oregon, and it

was a week or so after the arson that you had committed.

Prior to that, there were four other book club meetings;

is that correct?

A. Yes.
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Q. The first one was where and when?

A. Eugene, Oregon, March 2000.

Q. Who was there?

A. At the first meeting was me, Jeff, Vernell Lundberg, Al

Decker, Ron Coronado, Avalon, a man whose name I don't know

but we called Tumbleweed, Suzanne Savoie. I am not sure if

Nathan and Joy were there. A man from Tucson, Arizona, who I

knew as Rubin, and two men from Santa Cruz, California. Did I

say Diana Robin? She was there, and I think I said Jeff Hogg.

Q. You did. When was that?

A. March 2000.

Q. Briana Waters, was she there?

A. No, she was not there.

Q. In what kind of location was this meeting?

A. There was a conference going on at the same time, which is

why people were in town.

Q. Could you speak a little louder.

A. There was a conference going on at the same time, which is

why people were in town. It was at the hotel. I think it

might have been Vernell Lundberg and Al Decker's hotel room,

but I am not sure.

Q. So this group of people you named, about 13 to 15 people,

met in a room?

A. Yes.

Q. And you didn't meet in a room like a public room, you met
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in a private room; is that correct?

A. Yes, it was a hotel room.

Q. Now, there came a time when you say that there was -- the

first time you say that you met Briana was at a Denny's in

Olympia; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And there was a meeting, you say, involving five people;

is that correct? Or was it four people?

A. There were -- I think there were five people there. I

believe Jen Kolar was there, but I am not sure, and I would

not necessarily characterize it as a meeting, as in where

business was discussed but a meeting as in people met up

there.

Q. Could I ask you, don't drop your voice, please.

So you met there. How long did you stay? You said it was

a Denny's?

A. A Denny's, yes.

Q. Is there a chain of restaurants also called Perkins?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it a Perkins or was it a Denny's?

A. I believe it was a Denny's.

Q. How long did you stay at Denny's on that occasion?

A. Maybe an hour, I am not sure.

Q. Did you have breakfast, lunch, whatever?

A. It was evening. I think someone ordered -- I think
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someone ordered some food because it was weird if we sat there

without ordering food.

Q. You didn't want to look weird, right?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Didn't want to draw attention to yourselves; is that

correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Somehow Avalon -- who organized this meeting? Was it

Avalon?

A. I don't know, I was dropped off by Stan. I don't know who

organized the meeting.

Q. Was Avalon one of the people that was there?

A. Avalon was there.

Q. He was involved in the planning of this arson; is that

correct?

A. I believe he was. He was involved completely from the

time that I was involved.

Q. You know that he has written a manual on how to do arsons;

is that correct?

A. I believe that's true, yes.

Q. And did anyone else write such a manual that you know of,

Stan Meyerhoff?

A. I think Stan and Avalon worked together on the manual,

although Stan's not a very talented writer. He is now, but he

was not at that point, and I think Avalon did the writing and
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Stan had the knowledge.

Q. Now, one of the things that I think you said is that at

all the meetings, the book club meetings, security was a big

time event; is that correct?

A. No. At the later meetings, it became increasingly

important.

Q. And it wasn't just security at the book club meetings, it

was security in general about how you contacted people or

declined to contact people and how you would do that and how

you would do encryptions and things of that nature; is that

correct?

A. Yes. Security was important.

Q. So by May of 2001, there was a lot of encrypting and

secrecy going on amongst this group of people; is that

correct?

A. No. I only ever received one encrypted e-mail message

that I remember.

Q. I'm sorry, could you say that louder?

A. No, I only ever received one encrypted e-mail message that

I remember.

Q. Were there concerns about security, people who said don't

make phone calls, don't do e-mails?

A. Yes, that was a big concern.

Q. Right. Did it strike you as odd that people who were

going to do some kind of criminal action were meeting in a
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public place like Denny's?

A. No, that was consistent with our security culture. Not

talking about criminal activity at that place was important,

but meeting in public, not associated with outdoor places,

careful where we had conversations.

Q. So when you left Denny's, did you go off to the woods

somewhere and talk about it?

A. I don't remember for sure where we went.

Q. Well, think about it. You've been able to give -- just a

few minutes ago, I asked you who was at the first book club

meeting, and you were able to remember those details pretty

well; is that correct?

A. I remember that clearly, yes.

Q. Now, the first meeting where you claim that's the first

time you met Briana Waters, did you talk about any kind of

arsons while you were at Denny's?

A. I don't think we talked about arson explicitly or

criminality very much at all while we were at Denny's.

Q. So my question is, when you left Denny's, did you go

somewhere else so that you could talk in a place where the

waiters weren't listening?

A. Probably. That would make sense. I had no idea what the

plan was, so I had to be told at some point.

Q. Well, whatever you were told or not told, I am asking you

to search your memory. Did you leave Denny's and go to a
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place where you could discuss the arson that you say was being

planned? Did you do that?

A. The next clear memory I have is running on the track the

next morning near Briana's house.

Q. Now, that was a person who turned out to be the girlfriend

of Connor or Justin; is that correct?

A. I am sorry, I don't know what the status of their

relationship was at that point.

Q. Now, you don't remember -- let me withdraw that.

Are you saying you don't remember what happened from the

time you left Denny's to the time you were running on the

track? Is that what you are saying?

A. I have a clear memory of being at Denny's, and I have a

clear memory of running on the track, yes, that's what I am

saying.

Q. Now, prior to the events of May of 2001, had you ever

committed an arson?

A. No.

Q. So this is -- the events surrounding your involvement in

the arson would be something that you would have a clear

memory, a distinct memory about; is that correct?

A. The memories that I have are distinct, yes.

Q. But you are saying the events between leaving Denny's and

running on the track, you have no clear memory of that?

A. My memory tends to work in not movie length feature. It's
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791

shots of things I remember.

Q. Now, there came a time starting December 7, 2005, when

Stan got arrested, and other people got arrested as well, that

you must have thought, uh-oh, I could be next?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you start thinking about what had you done?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you discuss that with your parents?

A. I discussed at one point the arson with my parents, as my

attorneys. I asked them for legal advice.

Q. I am sorry, could you say that again?

A. We were very explicit that I was having a privileged

attorney-client conversation with them.

Q. With your parents?

A. My parents acted as my attorneys, yes.

Q. So you said to them -- these are your parents, your mother

and father -- I want to make sure I can trust you to not give

out this information, so you said let's be attorney/client?

Is that more or less what you are saying?

A. No. I was saying that I needed legal advice, and I turned

to my parents. Obviously, there's a blending of roles there

but --

Q. When was this in relation to December 7th? When did this

conversation take place?

A. I am not sure. It was after I returned to Spokane.
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Q. When was that?

A. I think the date was like December 11th or 10th. I am not

sure.

Q. Three, four or five days after Mr. Meyerhoff had been

arrested?

A. Yeah, both Mr. Meyerhoff and I had cleared our schedules

because we both intended to do a bit of traveling over that

holiday. I was not expected back to work in Washington, D.C.

until January.

Q. You were going to go to a wedding in Mexico; is that

correct?

A. We were going to go to a wedding, and then we were going

to go to his mother's house, and then we were going to go to

my parents' house.

Q. And the wedding in Mexico, was it Jeff or Josh?

A. No, it was in Costa Rica. It was a friend, Josh Laughlin.

Q. And Katie Higgins?

A. That's correct.

Q. And they live in Eugene?

A. They live in Eugene, yes.

Q. Did you ever speak to FBI agents in Eugene, after February

21st of 2006?

A. Did I ever speak to FBI agents in Eugene?

Q. Yes.

A. No. I believe that there may have been agents at the
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Portland office at, at least one of the interviews that I did.

Q. When was that?

A. The interview?

Q. Yes.

A. I am sorry, I don't have the dates of the interviews

readily available.

Q. Was that at a time when you were staying with Josh and

Katie?

A. No. The only interviews I ever did were in Seattle, one

time I went to Olympia, but I did not speak with the FBI while

I was staying with Josh and Katie.

Q. Now, you saw Jennifer Kolar in May of 2001 at Sisters,

Oregon; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you and she have any private conversations about

the arson that you had done the week before?

A. A group of us spoke at one point. It wasn't just Jen and

I.

Q. Was this in a room in a hotel, or where was it?

A. We were camping, and we walked up the road a little bit

away from the people who were in the book club but not

involved in the arson.

Q. Who was in this group of people?

A. That walked away together?

Q. Yes.
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A. Myself, Jen Kolar. Avalon, Briana and Justin were not

there.

Q. I am sorry. Could you start over. You said Jen Kolar,

and then you said Avalon, Justin and Briana, thinking that you

were going to say that they were there, but they were not

there?

A. They were not there.

Q. Avalon, Justin, Briana were not -- were they at the -- any

of them at the general meeting?

A. My co-conspirators were not there.

Q. Your co-conspirators, the people you were saying that you

committed the crime with; is that correct?

A. Right. When I am thinking about who was there, I am

thinking about the people involved in the two individual

crimes. The two people from the University of Washington who

were there were me and Jen Kolar, and then Nathan Block,

Suzanne Savoie, Stan Meyerhoff, Daniel McGowan and I believe

Joy were all there as well. All of the people involved in the

other half of the two arsons.

Q. Now, are those the people who walked away and had a

meeting somewhere?

A. Yes.

Q. Yourself and Kolar who had burned down the University of

Washington building, right?

A. Yes, we were responsible for that in part, yes.
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Q. Then five people, as you understood it, who had been

involved in the other incident?

A. That's what I understood, yes.

Q. Was there any discussion at that walk-away meeting that

Justin's car was used at that incident?

A. I don't know.

Q. Was there any discussion about who had driven to that

location, Jefferson Poplar Farm?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you express remorse for what had happened a week or

two earlier at the Center for Urban Horticulture?

A. I don't believe I did.

Q. Did Kolar do so?

A. I don't have a memory of that.

Q. Did anyone express remorse in that walk-away group?

A. I don't have a particular memory of very much that was

said there.

Q. In fact, you were kind of thrilled that you had

accomplished something, weren't you?

A. There was definitely a feeling of we accomplished

something, yes. We did something big, yes.

Q. And you were proud of yourself, weren't you?

A. I would say yeah, at that point I was probably proud of

what I had done.

Q. Now, since that day or that meeting -- how long did that
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meeting go? One day? Two days? Three?

A. Let's see, we spent at least one night there, maybe two,

in Sisters camping.

Q. After that meeting, it's your position that you have not

seen Jennifer Kolar since then; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. It is your position that there has been no communications

between the two of you?

A. That's correct.

Q. Have you come to learn from Mr. Friedman or Agent Halla or

anyone else that, to this day, Jennifer Kolar has not

identified you as being at the UW fire?

A. I learned that first, I believe, from your pleadings.

Q. Did you and Jennifer Kolar have some agreement that you

would not name each other if you were ever apprehended?

A. We all had that agreement.

Q. You understand that Jennifer Kolar is cooperating with the

United States Government in this arson; is that correct?

A. In the investigation, yes.

Q. You understand that she has pled guilty, as you have, to

burning down the Center for Urban Horticulture?

A. That's correct.

Q. Can you think of any reason, other than an agreement

between you two, that she has failed to name you as being

involved?
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A. Maybe she doesn't remember.

Q. Jennifer Kolar, not unlike yourself, is a very intelligent

woman; is that correct?

A. In my interactions with her, I thought she was smart, yes.

Q. She was a Ph.D. candidate at some point; is that correct?

A. I know that from your pleadings.

Q. You know that she was a -- has a master's degree in some

astrophysics type of study; is that correct?

A. I didn't know that except -- no, I didn't really know

that.

Q. You know that she has a substantial employment as a

computer person, programmer, expert, you know that, right?

A. No, I don't know what she does.

Q. You never knew that about her?

A. When I was interacting with her and we were friends, I

guess, I think she might have been between jobs, but I am not

sure. I knew that she did computer science type stuff, yes.

Q. So, is it your -- I think you said a few minutes ago that

the reason you might ascribe to her failing to identify you is

that she forgot?

A. I have no idea. I don't know, I am sorry. I am Lacey,

and not Jen.

Q. Did you, Lacey, have a discussion with Jen saying, let's

not name each other?

A. No, I never had -- well, I mean, I did the weekend before
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the arson. I believe we all had that discussion, yes. And

since then, no, never.

Q. And you, as a principled person, have abrogated that

understanding, have violated that understanding; is that

correct?

A. I broke a promise that I made, yes, in order to tell the

truth here today.

Q. And in breaking that promise, you are naming Jennifer

Kolar and she's not naming you? Does that strike you as odd?

A. It strikes me as odd that Jen doesn't remember me, yeah.

Although, since she was never in Olympia, she might not

remember me.

Q. I am sorry?

A. Since she was not -- I'm sorry, she wasn't in Olympia.

She wasn't at Briana's that I remember. I was involved at the

last minute, I believe.

Q. You were involved at the last minute, but the week before

you say you were at three meetings?

A. A lot of groundwork would have had to go into the arson,

as I understand it, and I was not involved in that sort of

groundwork.

Q. Part of the groundwork, is it correct, according to you

was getting a car; is that correct?

A. Yeah.

Q. Is it correct that in the writings of your
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boyfriend/fiancee Meyerhoff and Avalon, one of the critical

things they say is you have to have the car arranged, if you

are going to get a car, at least 36 hours beforehand.

Do you remember reading that in any manual?

A. No. I don't read that type of manual.

Q. You were involved in an arson; is that correct?

A. If you are talking about that manual they wrote --

Q. I am talking about that, yes.

A. I have never read it. It doesn't make sense to me. I

can't do that, what is described in there.

Q. The manual wasn't just about how to put the device

together to start a fire. It was about preparing to do so; is

that correct?

A. I don't know. I have never read it. You've clearly read

it more thoroughly than I have.

Q. And you were comfortable going on this action without

having read that; is that correct?

A. I never read the manual, that's true.

Q. Now, we talked about the first time you spoke to law

enforcement about your involvement in this crime, and that

was, am I correct, about two-and-a-half months after Meyerhoff

and the other people were arrested, February 21?

A. Yeah, almost three months, yes.

Q. And am I correct that you are saying you've testified

here, that sometime after the arson, May of '05 -- I am sorry,
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May of '01 -- you began to feel remorse; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. Well, of really significant note in my mind, an odd note,

a jarring note, that has always stuck out in my head --

Q. A little louder.

A. One thing that always stuck out in my head was hearing

those radio transmissions of the firefighters, and it's been a

very long process and really -- and also a very important

point was being held to account by the Government. That made

me, you know, look at something that I didn't want to

re-evaluate, unlike Stan who did force himself to re-evaluate

it.

Q. Well, I think you are saying that that very morning,

hearing the firefighters and hearing that they might be in

danger, began to trouble you; is that correct?

A. That always stuck out in my head as a very jarring note,

yes.

Q. And a week later in Sisters, Oregon, you were proud of

what you had done?

A. Are you asking me a question?

Q. Yes, I am. I should say: Were you, a week later at

Sisters, Oregon, at the book club meeting, one that was not

attended by Briana Waters -- in fact, none of them were

attended by Briana Waters, zero, none, right?
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A. That's correct; she was at none of the book club meetings.

Q. You said a few minutes ago that you began to feel troubled

when you heard the firefighters' interchanges on their

scanner; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Yet, am I correct that a week later, you were proud of

what you had done at the -- burning down the Center for Urban

Horticulture?

A. Yes. I am ashamed to admit that I was proud to have

gotten away with a major federal crime.

Q. So your act here is shame. Ladies and gentlemen of the

jury, I am ashamed of what I have done and I am here, and I am

just going to tell you the truth. That's your story, right?

MR. FRIEDMAN: Objection, Your Honor, this is

argumentative.

THE COURT: Question?

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. When you get caught in something and you rely on, you

know, I'm ashamed --

MR. FRIEDMAN: Objection, Your Honor, he's arguing.

THE COURT: Ask the question. You can answer it if

you can.

A. I avoided re-evaluating what had happened until I was

arrested -- or until Stan was arrested. When that happened, I

still, for a long time, didn't know how I felt. I mean, I
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802

didn't think it was good that we burned down the building, but

I also did not want to cooperate, and I didn't know how to

reconcile these old beliefs that I had moved on from with my

feeling that what we had done was wrong and the loyalty I felt

to the people who I believed were idealistic and

well-intentioned.

Q. So basically, you became a truth teller; is that correct?

A. I told the truth, yes. I am telling the truth, yes.

Q. Well, yesterday you testified, for example, that when you

had the job at the C-Ville Daily in Charlottesville, Virginia,

the reason that you left is because there was a personality

problem between you and the editor; is that correct?

A. I think the phrase is I was terminated without cause or

something, yes.

Q. That was a woman named Ms. Harding; is that correct?

A. Kathy Harding, yes.

Q. In fact, didn't you get fired because you showed up drunk

at a town meeting, to cover a town meeting?

A. She -- that's what she said. What the unemployment

decision determined was that I was terminated without cause.

Q. Were you drunk at the town meeting?

A. No, I wasn't drunk at the town meeting.

Q. Were you a little intoxicated? Had you been at a Cinco de

Mayo party?

A. No. Kathy Harding assigned me a story for the Spring
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issues, sort of out and about in the springtime, and we were

to write these short blurbs. One of the blurbs I was assigned

to write was a review of the best margarita in town, and then

she fired me for drinking a margarita. I think she didn't

like me very much and kind of set me up, but I don't know.

Q. Poor you.

A. You are the one who raised the subject, sir. I learned a

lot from that experience.

Q. And she said -- this woman said that you got fired because

you showed up drunk to cover a public event. That's what she

said, right?

A. She terminated me without cause. She may have said that

to Unemployment. I think they contested my unemployment.

Unemployment determined that I was terminated without cause.

Q. You testified yesterday under oath that it was about a

personality conflict. That's the truth, right? You think it

was just about a personality conflict?

A. Yeah, I do.

Q. Now, in the time between December 7th, the arrest of your

boyfriend, December 7th of '05 -- when did you become engaged,

by the way?

A. Late 2006.

Q. And that was after he was cooperating and after you were

cooperating; is that correct?

A. That's correct.
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804

Q. And he was cooperating within two hours of being arrested;

is that correct?

A. I don't know, sir. I have never spoken with him about

that. I have never read anything about his cooperation.

Q. You do know --

A. Let me clarify. I have never read anything that's not in

the public records, the court documents, about his

cooperation.

Q. Can you say that again. It's hard to hear you sometimes.

A. I have never read anything that's not in the unsealed

pleadings.

Q. How did you get to read the unsealed pleadings?

A. How did I get to read them?

Q. Yes. Who gave them to you?

A. I have access to them myself.

Q. How is that?

A. There's an electronic service to access pleadings.

Q. It's called PACER?

A. Yes.

Q. And you have -- whenever you want to, by computer you can

access that via the Internet?

A. No, I am in prison.

Q. So whenever you get use?

A. No. We are not allowed to access the Internet; we only

have e-mail.
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805

Q. I see. So the access via PACER was before you

self-surrendered a little over a year ago?

A. Yes. I believe I have read all the pleadings in this

case, almost, except for anything filed in the last few days.

Q. So from the time you self-surrendered in January a year

ago, you have not or you have seen the pleadings that have

been filed since then?

A. I have seen those.

Q. How did you get those?

A. My attorney sent them to me.

Q. In hard copy, on paper?

A. Yes.

Q. And you requested those?

A. Yes.

Q. Because you wanted to know what was happening?

A. I have tried to stay up-to-date on every single one of the

cases of all of the people who were indicted.

Q. In particular this case because you expected that you were

going to be testifying; is that correct?

A. No, I hoped and prayed that I would not have to testify.

Q. Nevertheless, hoped and prayed, you thought that you might

be testifying; is that correct?

A. No, it didn't seem like a reasonable position to take so I

kind of thought I would not have to testify.

Q. I am sorry --
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806

A. I thought I would not have to testify. I think it's rare

for cases to go to trial.

Q. In fact, tell us who Brian Baker is.

A. Brian Baker is a man I know through working in sustainable

agriculture in Oregon.

Q. Have you been in touch with him?

A. I am in touch with Mr. Baker.

Q. Did you ask him to write a letter to Judge Burgess on your

behalf?

A. I believe he did, yes. Yes, I asked him.

Q. Did you do that by e-mail, get in touch with Brian Baker?

A. I have seen Brian Baker face to face. I could have asked

him then or by e-mail.

Q. Do you remember telling him, with regard to what you

answered a moment ago, about why you thought this case, Briana

Waters' case wouldn't go to trial, did you write to Brian

Baker and tell him that the feds overcharge?

A. I believe that's true, yes.

Q. Did you tell him that they force plea deals?

A. I don't know the feds. I would say there's three

combinations that lead to people having very long sentences in

federal prison. Those would be mandatory minimum, severe drug

penalties and, I guess, the charging ability of the U.S.

Attorney's Office.

Q. My question is: Did you write to Brian Baker and tell him
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807

that it was your opinion that the feds force plea deals?

A. It sounds like you are reading from something to me. I

don't have access to that that you are reading from.

Q. I am just asking, whether I am reading or not, did you say

that? Did you write that to Brian Baker?

A. I may have written that to Brian Baker. I'm sorry, unless

I can see what you are reading from, I can't verify that it's

my words.

Q. Well, I am not asking you to say word for word. I am

asking you if you remember writing that to him. That's all I

am asking, whether I am reading or not.

A. I don't have a particular memory of writing that to him.

I am sorry, I am not trying to be difficult.

Q. Do you remember writing to him that, in your opinion, that

with regard to the feds taking a case to trial is not a right,

but a very risky proposition?

A. I believe that's true, yes.

Q. And you believe that you wrote that?

A. I think it is very risky to take a case to trial, yes. I

believe I probably wrote that to Brian.

Q. So when it came to your thought that you not just hope,

but your thought that you would not have to testify in this

case against Briana Waters, it was your hope that she would

plead guilty and the case would be over for you, you wouldn't

have to testify; is that correct?
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808

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know that everybody else who's not a fugitive in

these cases, this case and the Eugene, Oregon case, including

you, everybody has pleaded guilty except for Briana Waters?

A. That's right.

Q. Is that, in your mind, because they, the feds, force plea

deals?

A. I think they pled guilty because they were guilty and --

you can take it to trial, you have a right to take it to trial

technically, but there is a penalty built into the system if

you take it to trial.

Q. And the penalty is a gigantic sentence, right?

A. Well, the clearest penalty to me is that you don't get a

downward departure for acceptance of responsibility.

Q. You were told -- I think Mr. Friedman asked you

yesterday -- when you first spoke to the law enforcement

people on the 21st of February of 2006, you understood that

you were facing a mandatory minimum sentence of 35 years if

you went to trial and lost.

You understood that; is that correct?

A. Yeah, I think I knew that at that point.

Q. I am sorry?

A. Yes, I knew that at that point.

Q. And was that what you had in mind when you said to Brian

Baker that they force plea deals?
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809

A. No, I was making a general analysis of the prosecution,

the way the justice system works in this country.

Q. Is that what you had in mind when you said that taking --

if you said something like, taking a case to trial is not a

right, but a very risky proposition --

A. Yeah.

Q. -- words to that effect?

A. Technically, you have the right, of course, to take a case

to trial, so I was wrong if I said that it's not a right. It

is a right. But it is a very risky proposition because you do

not get credit for accepting responsibility.

Q. But in your mind, and what you were thinking, is that even

though it's a right, the federal authorities with whom you

were dealing don't think of it as a right, they think of it as

a luxury, that nobody goes to trial, guilty or not?

A. I can't speak to how they think.

Q. No, what you think about how they operate. That's what I

am talking about. Your belief about how they operate.

A. If you wanted me to characterize my belief, I do it pretty

carefully and in my own words.

Q. Of course you do it carefully because it's these people

right here who are going to say to Judge Burgess, give her

three years or give her five years or the deal is off?

A. I do it carefully because my perspective has changed since

I have been in prison.
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810

Q. You are remorseful now, right?

A. Yes, I feel a lot of remorse.

Q. And you were -- were you remorseful between December 7, of

'05 when everybody was arrested and the 21st of February,

two-and-a-half months later? Were you remorseful at that

time?

A. I was panicked and remorseful and scared senseless, yes.

Q. It took you two-and-a-half months to come in and express

your remorse, correct?

A. Confessing to a crime that could put you in prison for 35

years is very scary.

Q. Yes, it is, but it took you two-and-a-half months to come

in and tell Mr. Friedman, Mr. Bartlett and Agent Halla and

everyone else, that you are remorseful. It took you

two-and-a-half months after the arrest of your boyfriend?

A. Yes, it did. And one thing that was a big factor in my

mind is that I did not want to bear the responsibility of

sending anyone else to prison.

Q. Now, in that period or after that period, did you travel

to Arizona?

A. I did travel to Arizona during 2006, yes.

Q. When was it?

A. I am not sure of the months.

Q. Was it before you began to cooperate or after?

A. After, and I think in like May, June and then maybe
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811

November, October, November.

Q. When you were in Arizona, did you look up a long-time

activist named Millett?

A. Peg Millett, yes.

Q. Did you tell her you were cooperating?

A. I didn't have a specific conversation with her about what

I was doing, no.

Q. You concealed the fact from her that you were a

cooperating individual; is that correct?

A. Generally, I had been asked not to tell people that I was

cooperating. I did not -- I didn't tell her that I was

cooperating, that's true.

Q. You had been asked by whom to do that?

A. After I cooperated, I felt like -- I felt like -- the day

I was going to cooperate, I felt like I was on the way to my

funeral. Afterwards, I felt like I had been to confession and

was given new life, and I wanted to sing it from the mountain

tops. I wanted to tell everyone in the world what I had done

and why I had done it.

My attorney told me that I should not do that. I believe

that the U.S. Attorney's Office did not want me to tell people

I was cooperating, but I don't know for sure. They didn't

tell me that, I don't think.

Q. Now, whatever you were told and whatever you wanted to do,

how much time did you spend with Peg Millett in Arizona?
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812

A. A number of hours.

Q. During that time, you had already been, at least once, to

the prosecution and made statements; is that correct?

A. Yeah.

Q. You were already a cooperating witness; is that correct?

A. I guess so.

Q. Did you have a bite to eat with Peg Millett?

A. I remember her making some juice and maybe there was some

food.

Q. You went to her home?

A. I went to her home.

Q. As you sat across from her or stood across from her, you

did not want her to know that you were a Government witness;

is that correct?

A. No, I think I kind of hinted to her that I was.

Q. In what way did you do that?

A. I talked with her about the woman in her case who had

folded, and I talked with her generally about why a person

would do that, what a person would do.

Q. So that was your hinting at it; is that correct?

A. I don't remember exactly how I hinted or -- I think she

knew.

Q. Basically, you sat with her for two or three hours and you

deceived her; is that correct?

A. I think she knew that I was cooperating.
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813

Q. What makes you think that she knew that you were

cooperating?

A. It seemed like something I had conveyed and that she had

understood.

Q. Did you tell her you were cooperating?

A. No, not explicitly.

Q. You kept that from her. You expressly decided, I am not

going to tell this woman that I am cooperating?

A. I did not tell that woman I was cooperating.

Q. You made a decision, you said to yourself before you saw

her and while you were with her, I am not going to tell this

woman that I am a cooperating witness.

You made that decision; is that correct?

A. No, I don't think I decided that. I think after I felt

like I hinted at it and she had understood, then it seemed

unnecessary.

Q. Did you also look up a fellow named Ron Coronado?

A. No.

Q. Did you bump into him?

A. Yes.

Q. And how much time did you spend with him in Arizona in

2006, on this trip that you made to Arizona?

A. Maybe three minutes.

Q. And he walked away from you, right?

A. Yeah.
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814

Q. And were you at the same time looking for Spring and

Peaches, who had last been in Arizona?

A. No, I was not looking for them.

Q. Were you doing any kind of investigative work for the

United States Government as a cooperating witness?

A. No.

Q. In fact, on your website, either your writing or your

associates' or your friends' writing, it's indicated that

there's a lot of misunderstandings about what you are doing;

is that correct?

A. I haven't read the website recently.

Q. Well, when it first went up, were there writings to that

effect? There's a lot of misunderstandings?

A. I think that's true.

Q. In fact, it's not a misunderstanding that you are a

Government witness, right?

A. When my plea changed, people spread the fact that my plea

changed and it was said that I wore a wire. That was a great

misunderstanding. I never wore a wire.

Q. But you were and are a Government witness, and you've been

such since February 21 of 2006; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Was that a misunderstanding that people were saying that?

A. No. People said that before that as well, when it wasn't

true.
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815

Q. But you made it true. You went in and you saved yourself;

isn't that right? You saved yourself from essentially the

rest of your life in prison, only 35 years, not a life

sentence, only 35 years, the mandatory minimum. No parole

before 35 years. You understood that, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And at the time, in February of '06, how old were you?

A. In February '06, I was 31.

Q. So you would have been 66 years old if you hadn't cut a

deal, by the time you got out of prison if you got convicted,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you knew you were going to get convicted because your

boyfriend had informed on you?

A. No, I didn't think -- no, I didn't know that. I didn't

think Stan's word alone would be sufficient, if he had.

Q. So you were considering going to trial; is that right?

A. I wanted to take a straight plea deal.

Q. I am sorry?

A. I wanted to take a non-cooperating plea deal originally.

Q. And that didn't work out, they said no, right?

A. No, it was never -- let's see. It didn't work out. I was

never offered a non-cooperation deal, but they didn't say no

to it.

Q. Well, what you really wanted was for it to just go away,
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816

right? That would have been the best solution, right?

A. Yeah, I wish I could have woken up and it had gone away.

Q. But you knew that wasn't going to happen, right?

A. No, because I was guilty.

Q. Well, it's not just that you were guilty, it's that your

boyfriend was saying that you were involved in the double

whammy?

A. I didn't know that. I thought that might be true.

Q. Sometime this morning, we talked about you did have a

recollection of going to visit Stan Meyerhoff in lockup and he

said he was giving names and you pointed to yourself and he

nodded yes.

Do you remember that?

A. I don't think he said -- he said something, and I

said (indicating) and he said yes, but it was --

Q. Pointing to yourself?

A. Yes.

Q. The record should indicate that because -- I have to use

the words because -- I have to describe it for the record.

You pointed to your own chest with your index figure, is

that correct, which is the gesture that you made essentially

questioning him, did you name names?

That is what you were asking; is that correct?

A. I was trying to ask that. I was unsure what the

significance to him was.
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817

Q. Did you get a response from him when you pointed to your

chest? What was his response, if any?

A. I think he was responsive in the affirmative.

Q. He said, yeah, I named you. I told them about you.

A. No, he didn't say that.

Q. That's what he said in effect, right?

A. No. He was in prison. I was unsure what he remembered

about me, and our interaction was videotaped, recorded, and

there was probably an officer watching as well. So it was

unclear.

Q. Right. You were trying to be secretive; is that correct?

You didn't say, did you name me, and he said yes, I named you,

you thug. He didn't say that, right?

A. Right, he didn't say that.

Q. In fact, you know he wrote a letter to a judge the day or

the night he was arrested calling you and everybody else who

was involved in these arson "thugs"?

A. No, I didn't know that he'd written such a letter.

Q. That's what happens when you decide to cooperate, isn't

it? You say what you think they want to hear, and you put

your fate in their hands?

A. That's what I thought might happen from watching TV, and

the process has actually been nothing like that.

Q. In fact, didn't you and your boyfriend/fiancee, didn't

there come a time when he told you in a phone conversation
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818

that things didn't go well -- sometime in January of '06 --

didn't go well, and he's going to go back to the plan of

making the prosecutor his advocate?

Remember that conversation?

A. I remember him telling me at one point things didn't go

well.

Q. Do you remember his saying he was going to go back to his

original plan to make the prosecutor his advocate?

A. I don't remember that, and if he had said that, I wouldn't

have known what it meant.

Q. Now you know what it means, don't you, because that's what

you are doing?

A. The prosecutor prosecutes me; they are not my advocates.

Q. Well, they are going to speak up on sentencing day and

they are going to tell Judge Burgess one thing or another; is

that correct?

A. They are going to prosecute me on the day I am sentenced,

yes.

Q. They are going to -- you hope they are going to say to

you -- I am sorry, to Judge Burgess about you, she's done what

we wanted her to do, she should get the lower end of the three

to five range.

That's what you hope that they would say; is that correct?

A. I would like a recommendation for a low sentence, but my

main hope is that Judge Burgess gives me a low sentence. I am
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819

not really overly concerned about the recommendation. They

have two years over me, but they don't have 35 years over me.

Q. Whatever it is they have, you would prefer that they come

in before Judge Burgess and advocate for you, rather than

against you?

A. They will not ever advocate for me. They are the

prosecutors. My lawyer advocates for me.

Q. And he will come and argue for you on sentencing day; is

that correct?

A. I fully expect that the U.S. Government will use every

speck of dirt they have on me on the day that I am sentenced.

That's what they do, they are prosecutors.

Q. And that's why you have agreed to be in league with them?

A. Because they will use every speck of dirt on me? No.

Q. No. These are people you have just described with some

disdain who they are and what you expect them to do.

A. I am sorry if that was disdainful. I didn't mean to be

disdainful. I don't feel disdainful for their job title. I

think it's important.

Q. I think you said that's who they are, or something like

that, right?

A. Yeah, maybe.

Q. Are you saying to this jury that you don't care whether

they come in and say give her three years or, on the other

hand, they say give her five years?
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820

A. I care greatly about doing the minimum amount of time in

prison as possible, but I will tell you that if there was any

risk, it was that I would have convenient memory lapses and

not remember Briana there. There have been days when I

thought I would kill myself before I would testify against

her.

I am not telling the truth because I owe it to the

prosecution. I am telling the truth because I owe it to the

victims of the crime.

Q. When you say the truth, to you the truth is: "I said

Briana Waters did it, for whatever my reasons, and I have to

keep saying that. That is my position. If I don't say that,

the deal is over, 35 years in prison. You understand that.

They can come in here -- let me withdraw that. That's a

complex question.

You understand that if you don't please them, they have

the option of coming in here and saying: Judge Burgess, she

has not fulfilled her obligation, and we believe the deal

should be abrogated, called off?

A. If I told a lie, they could do that.

Q. To them, a lie would be anything other than Briana Waters

did it, in your mind?

A. Because Briana Waters did it.

Q. That's what you are saying, and that's what you are going

to say from here to the end of time, because it helps you to
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821

say that?

A. Yes, to the end of time until after the prosecutors have

nothing on me, forever. My recollection is Briana Waters did

it.

Q. Can you explain why four weeks after you said Briana

Waters did it, they showed her picture to your boyfriend,

Meyerhoff, who looked at the picture and said: She, the woman

in this picture, is not involved in any arsons?

Can you explain how possibly that could happen?

A. I could speculate.

Q. Let's hear it. Let's hear you speculate.

A. Just like I didn't recognize the picture of Justin. I

don't know what picture was shown to him. He was involved in

a number of arsons. I am sure it's difficult for him to

remember. So I don't know. I can't explain it, but that's my

speculation.

Q. Let me show you A-97. Who is that?

A. That's Briana Waters.

Q. Any mistake that that's Briana Waters?

A. Not to me.

Q. That picture looks more like her than she looks like her.

That's Briana Waters, right?

A. That's Briana Waters.

Q. If you looked at that picture, would you say not involved?

You wouldn't say that at all. You would say involved in the
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822

CUH arson; is that correct?

A. I was only involved in one arson, so my memory is very

clear.

Q. Well, he was asked -- or did you come to learn that he was

asked: Was she involved? Do you recognize this picture? And

he said, looks familiar, not involved?

MR. FRIEDMAN: Objection, calls for speculation and

it's been asked and answered.

THE COURT: I thought she had answered that,

Mr. Bloom.

MR. BLOOM: All right. I will move on.

THE COURT: All right.

BY MR. BLOOM:

A. Another bit of speculation is that those photo lineups go

really quickly.

Q. Well, did you come to learn that he did pick out a number

of people in that photo lineup --

A. No.

Q. -- on March 17th of 2006?

A. No, only just now when you said that. I don't know what

the conversation was about, what arson it was about, if he was

talking about University of Washington at that point or not.

I don't know anything about that conversation, other than your

characterization of it.

Q. You weren't present; is that correct?
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823

A. Of course not.

Q. Did you have a discussion, either by telephone or by

e-mail or in person, with Mr. Meyerhoff any time after St.

Patrick's day of '06, March 17th?

A. Did I converse with him after March 17th of '06? Yes.

Q. Did he indicate to you -- first of all, did you ever tell

him that you were going to be naming or you had already named

Briana Waters as a participant in the University of Washington

arson?

Did you ever tell him that?

A. Sometime very long after I did do that, I did tell him

that. I believe it was after she was indicted and after I

was -- my plea change happened.

Q. Your plea change happened, meaning you were pleading

guilty?

A. Right.

Q. And when you were pleading guilty, it was in front of

Judge Burgess; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. In this very room; is that correct?

A. Yeah.

Q. Let's talk about the first day you spoke to Mr. Friedman

and Agent Halla. Your father was with you?

A. He accompanied me to the federal building, yes.

Q. And that would be in Seattle?
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824

A. Yes.

Q. What time of day was that?

A. I don't remember. I think it was 10:00, 11:00 or

something.

Q. Late morning?

A. Yeah.

Q. He was not in the room with you when you were talking

about the events; is that correct?

A. No.

Q. He was asked to wait outside?

A. Yes.

Q. And in the room with you, did you have a lawyer?

A. Peter Offenbecher.

Q. And when did you retain Peter Offenbecher?

A. I am not sure what day I signed a contract or whatever you

would call it with him.

Q. Retainer agreement?

A. Retainer agreement, uh-huh.

Q. Would that have been in the month of December of '05?

A. In December of 2005, I consulted with a number of

attorneys, including Peter Offenbecher.

Q. And there came a time when you decided he was going to be

your lawyer?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you pay him or did your parents pay him?
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A. I -- the money was mine.

Q. You had gotten money from your parents?

A. No, I got the money from hard work.

Q. Okay. There came a time when you and Peter Offenbecher --

February 21 -- went to speak to the authorities; is that

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you had already decided that you were going to save

yourself; is that correct?

A. No, I had no idea what I was going to do when I walked

through the door.

Q. You didn't know?

A. I didn't know.

Q. Had you discussed it with Mr. Offenbecher?

A. I had discussed it -- yeah.

Q. It was not your understanding that you were going there to

become a cooperating witness?

A. I knew I was going there to meet with the U.S. Attorney's

Office. I thought that they would hope that I would

cooperate. I thought they would tell me something about it

beforehand, but they didn't. This meeting went differently

than I expected. I was -- immediately prior to going to the

U.S. Attorney's Office, I was told by Lauren Regan that

Chelsea Gerlach and Suzanne Savoie were cooperating, and in my

mind, the truth was coming out, it was time to be truthful.
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826

Q. You looked over here when you said Lauren Regan. Is she

in the courtroom?

A. Yes, she is.

Q. Is she an attorney?

A. Yes, she is.

Q. Is she from Eugene, Oregon?

A. Yes, she is.

Q. How long had you known her before February 21st of '06?

A. The year that I met her, let's see, maybe 19 -- no, 1996

or '97 I met her for the first time.

Q. Was she the attorney with whom you worked in Eugene, or

was it someone else?

A. I worked for a law firm while I was in college, Arnold,

Gallagher, Saydack, Percell and Roberts, and I worked at a

different firm after I came back from Europe, with an attorney

named Jeff Rosas.

Q. Did you -- after December 7th, did you call Lauren Regan?

A. I tried to, but she was in Costa Rica.

Q. She had gone to the wedding; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it fair to say that she got back right after Christmas?

A. I think so.

Q. And you spoke to her more than once right after Christmas?

A. Probably, yes, I spoke with her.

Q. Did there come a time -- let me withdraw that.
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827

Did you come to learn that she's an attorney for

environmental activists; is that correct?

A. And environmental causes, yes.

Q. Did you come to learn that she was in some way involved in

the Oregon case where Stan Meyerhoff was one of the people

indicted?

A. I was never clear on what her involvement was.

Q. Did you come to learn that she was in some way involved?

A. She seemed to have information related to the case, yes.

Q. And it was important to you to get information related to

the case; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. In fact, you and Lauren had been roommates for a while; is

that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. I am not sure of the dates, but I lived with her at the

time I committed the arson.

Q. Did you tell her at that time that you had committed an

arson?

A. No, I never told anyone.

Q. I am sorry?

A. I never told anyone.

Q. Right. It's understandable that you don't want to admit

to a crime, unless you are put in a position where some reason
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828

you feel you have to?

THE COURT: Let's do this. Let's break at this point

and take the noon recess, have you go about your way and get a

sandwich. When you are back in the building, of course always

enter into the jury room. Leave your books on the chair and

don't discuss the case.

(Jury not present.)

THE COURT: All right. You may be seated.

We'll take the noon recess.

MR. FRIEDMAN: Before we adjourn, we are concerned

that a lot of the questions are getting very close to

attorney/client privilege, conversations that Ms. Phillabaum

had with various lawyers so --

THE COURT: I think if she feels it's in that

category, she will disclose that and handle that.

THE WITNESS: Does that mean I can say if I think

it's a privileged conversation?

THE COURT: I can't advise you, but you may step

down. I believe you have a lawyer, don't you?

THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.

THE COURT: Okay. That will take care of that.

MR. BARTLETT: Can we get a feel -- we totally

misunderstood how long this is going to go on. We have a lot

of witnesses sitting outside.

MR. BLOOM: I think I intend to take the day.
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829

THE COURT: I can't tell how long he's going to go

on. Sometimes I am here to listen, and hopefully it won't be

a broken record like it tends to seem sometime.

MR. FOX: If I in any way -- I apologize if I in any

way suggested it would be less.

MR. BARTLETT: No problem. Let's take the noon

recess.

THE CLERK: All rise. Court is in recess.

(Luncheon recess.)

(Jury not present.)

THE COURT: All right. You may be seated.

Mr. Bloom, we are ready. Bring in the jury.

(Jury present.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

You may continue, Mr. Bloom.

MR. BLOOM: Thank you.

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. I think we were talking about the Sisters meeting. Now,

the four other meetings, the book club meetings that had

preceded that, I think you've already testified that Briana

was at none of those meetings; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Now, did you have a nickname in this group of people?

A. I think I might have had one or two nicknames during that

period of time.
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830

Q. Well, might have?

A. The only nickname or alias I ever remember is Reba.

Q. You say the only one. That is your nickname, that was

your alias; is that right?

A. For a period of time, I believe that I had, like maybe at

different meetings, we had different names. I'm not sure.

Q. Was there such a thing -- there was one meeting where you

all chose what might be called an ailment name; is that

correct?

A. No. There was one meeting at which Jen Kolar handed out

PGP disks that she had assigned ailment names, and I had been

assigned an ailment name.

Q. What was that?

A. I don't know.

Q. It was kind of a semi joke, right, that "bronchitis" would

be somebody's name or something like that?

A. I never got the joke, if it was a joke.

Q. Well, then it was a serious effort using some medical

ailment to conceal people's names; is that correct?

A. It was an effort to conceal people's names, yes.

Q. Because people were really security conscious; is that

right?

A. PGP was at the point which we were very security

conscious, yes.

Q. When was this meeting, the meeting at which PGP was
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831

discussed?

A. That was the third meeting in Santa Cruz, I think,

California.

Q. Santa Cruz, California?

A. Yes.

Q. What month and what year?

A. I believe it would have been the year 2000. I am unsure

of the month.

Q. Who was present?

A. Myself, Stan Meyerhoff, Jen Kolar, Chelsea Gerlach, Diane

Robin, Jeff Hogg, Nathan and Joy. I believe a man from Santa

Cruz who we called Leroy was there. Rod Coronado was there.

Avalon was there.

Q. Those are the ones you remember right now?

A. Those are the ones I can rattle off without being sure

which ones I have said already.

Q. Now, was there any discussion with regard to security,

that one thing that should never happen in a secure situation

is one person should buy a cell phone for another person in

the group? Was that kind of thing discussed?

A. I don't know that particular rule.

Q. That really would have been, in your mind, based on the

instructions that you were hearing, a ridiculous breach of

security for that to happen; is that correct?

A. It would depend on the circumstances.
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832

Q. Well, if I were to buy a cell phone for you, put the cell

phone in my name and give it to you to use in my name, that

would be a security breach, wouldn't it?

A. If I intended to recruit you to commit arsons at that

point of time, if I originally intended to use you as a

support person to support my arsonist activities, it might not

be a security breach, it might be something I did with the

intention of having you support me.

Q. What about if I was your friend and you were having credit

problems and you asked me to buy a phone for you that you

couldn't get one in your name, would that be another option?

A. I wouldn't buy a phone for someone. I am not sure why we

are talking about this.

Q. Because maybe you are not such a good friend, you wouldn't

buy a phone for someone?

A. (Laughing.) No, I generally try to neither lender nor a

borrower be.

Q. Nor a favor doer?

A. That's a little piece of advice that Stan gave me. It

works well in prison, as well, where you don't want to be

lending and borrowing a lot.

Q. Stan is a good person from whom to seek advice; is that

right?

A. I am engaged to him. I find him to be a very good person,

right, yes.
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833

Q. Am I correct that you testified this morning that after

September 11th, in your mind, all this arson stuff, this crazy

stuff, was completely out, completely ridiculous; is that

correct?

A. After September 11th -- well, after the crime, I didn't

want anything to do with arson. During that whole period of

time, I was re-thinking my involvement with radical

environment groups, and September 11th made on me, like

everyone, a very big impression, yes.

Q. And this man whom a moment ago you said is a person whose

advice you would heed, Stan Meyerhoff, a month after September

11th, October 15th of the year 2001, he committed another

arson, did he not?

A. I have no direct knowledge of that, sir.

Q. Did he tell you he did?

A. No.

Q. Has he since then told you that he did?

A. No, we've never talked explicitly about his crimes. I

have read it in court papers.

Q. You have come to learn now, or do you believe now, that

he, Stan Meyerhoff, committed an arson in Susanville,

California, a rural part of California?

Do you believe that now?

A. He's been convicted of that, yes. Yeah, I believe that he

did that. He admitted it.
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834

Q. You believe that that crime occurred approximately one

month, five weeks after September 11, 2001?

Do you believe that?

A. I don't have any independent basis to verify any of this.

If that's when it occurred, that's when it occurred, and I

would believe it if I read it somewhere, yes.

Q. Well, did you read about it when it happened in the

newspaper or in any Earth First journal or a Portland media or

anywhere where you would get information about environmental

activities?

A. I am not sure how I came to know about that, sir.

Q. Well, didn't you read that the Earth Liberation Front had

taken credit for the arson at the Litchfield or Susanville

facility?

A. Yeah, I believe I read about it somewhere at some point,

yes.

Q. Did you ever discuss that -- is it your testimony you've

never discussed that with your fiancee, Stan Meyerhoff? You

have never discussed that with him?

A. Like I said, I made it be known to him that I thought

after September 11th, it was incredibly stupid to involve

ourselves in activities like that.

Q. Have you ever discussed that incident with him?

A. No. Sir, my -- my general relationship with Stan, I would

compare to like recovery from, or deprogramming from a very
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835

severe ideological event. Reliving the mistakes that we made

was not big on our agenda. Moving on in our life was.

Q. I don't pretend to be an expert on recovery, but isn't

part of recovery acknowledging, talking about and resolving

and experiencing what you may or may not have done wrong?

A. Yes, and the opportunity to tell the truth about this has

been very cathartic and penitential to me for that reason.

Q. This incident happened more than six years ago; is that

correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you've been with him for how long?

A. Stan and I have been together for almost seven years.

Q. And in all this time, you have never spoken with him about

that incident to which he has pleaded guilty?

A. No, sir. He was involved in a number of arsons, I

believe, and we had only very few, very failed conversations

about any of those because we were trying to move on in our

lives. And since he was arrested again, because we are not

free to talk about the case, the conversation has been

minimal.

Q. He was arrested in December of '05; is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the incident happened four years plus before that; is

that correct? We are talking about Litchfield, Susanville,

more than four years before that, right?
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836

A. I guess so, yes.

Q. October of '01, December '05. That's four years and two

months, right?

MR. FRIEDMAN: Objection, Your Honor, these have all

been asked and answered.

MR. BLOOM: It has not been asked and answered.

THE COURT: Well, ask it again. She keeps answering,

but you are not satisfied, I guess.

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. Is it your position that in four years and two months,

that you never once discussed that incident with the man who

is to become your fiancee?

A. I had one conversation with him where I told him that I

thought after 9/11, it was unacceptable to be involved in such

activities.

Q. Would that have been soon after 9/11 that you had that

conversation?

A. Yes.

Q. And was it before October 15th of that same year?

A. No, I don't think so.

Q. So it was after that?

A. Well, I didn't think it was necessary to say really. I

was surprised that this arson, which was potentially related

to the people I knew, happened because I thought everyone

would have the same misgivings that I did.
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837

Q. When you were at Sisters at the fifth book club meeting

one week after the University of Washington arson, you

basically did high-fives for the wonderful work that you had

done the week before; is that correct?

A. No. It was a tense meeting. We were angry with each

other about the communiqué.

Q. So it was an intense meeting because of the communiqué?

Did you not tell us this morning that you were feeling proud

of yourself for what you had done?

A. That was the word of choice. That was your choice of

words. I agreed to it, yes.

Q. Were you pleased with yourself? How about your word. You

give the jury your word.

How did you did you feel about what you had accomplished

by burning down the building?

A. I hadn't had time -- it took a long time to completely

re-evaluate what I did and renounce it, and I do want to

renounce it. I am renouncing it.

Q. I want you to use your word. In fact, that's what you do.

You are a really good debater, aren't you?

A. Sir, I am trying to be thoughtful about the answers

because it's an important matter.

Q. Your choice of what words and how to present them and what

kinds of supporting facts to throw into your argument, that's

among your highest skills, isn't it?
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838

A. No, I haven't been a debater since I was 18 years old. I

am 32, about to turn 33.

Q. It's like riding a bike, though, isn't it?

A. No, I wouldn't say so. I was a very competitive person

when I was a debater. I was a very different person. I often

find that I am not interested in argumentation anymore.

Q. Well, I am sorry to put you in this situation, but am I

correct that two-and-a-half months went by after the arrest of

Meyerhoff and the others before you decided to show your

remorse by speaking to the U.S. Attorney on February 21st of

06?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Two-and-a-half months went by?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And it wasn't about remorse, it was about saving yourself,

wasn't it?

A. My motivations for cooperating were very complex. One

thing I didn't want to do is put my family through a trial

based on a lie. That was an important consideration for me.

Q. That's because you were guilty?

A. I am guilty.

Q. You were then and you are now?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. And you became guilty on May 21st in the early morning

hours of 2001; is that correct?
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839

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Even before that, you were a conspirator with a number of

the people you have mentioned; is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Before you met -- as you claim -- met Briana Waters at

Denny's a week before the fire, was she involved in any

conspiracy that you know of?

A. From direct knowledge, no. The only way I knew her and

the only reason I ever had a conversation with her, including

the conversation in which she was angry with me, was because

she participated in this arson.

Q. The conversation in which she was angry with you is

because she had participated in the arson?

A. The only reason I knew her to have that conversation was

because she was -- that happened that weekend. One of those

two weekends before the arson.

Q. You had met Justin way back, sometime in the middle of the

previous year, 2000; is that correct?

A. I knew him for a matter of hours on the night of the

Dusty, Washington crime, yes.

Q. And there came a time when you wound up in his cabin just

the two of you, right?

A. Is that unusual for a man and a woman to be in a residence

together? I don't think it is.

Q. I didn't say it was unusual, I am just asking the
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840

questions.

Was it unusual in your mind to be in his bed with him?

MR. FRIEDMAN: Your Honor --

THE COURT: Why are we covering this again?

MR. BLOOM: Because she just brought it up.

THE WITNESS: I just want to mention, though -- what

do you call it when it's not --

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. Platonic?

A. Platonic interactions between men and women in the Earth

First Movement to the point of sleeping together were common

because we often camped together, sleeping together in the

same space, camped together, spent time together. We were

working on things intensely. It might be less usual in

different communities, but in that community it was -- I never

had sex with the man. I never thought about having sex with

the man.

Q. Do you remember a guy by the name of Bill Clinton, right?

A. I never gave him a blow-job either, if that's what you are

asking.

Q. I did not ask that at all.

Do you remember him saying, "I did not have sex with that

woman"?

MR. FRIEDMAN: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Bloom, move on to a question that
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841

helps here.

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. Now, Tilth, what is that again?

A. Oregon Tilth is a certifier of organic farms.

Q. When did you work there?

A. I worked there from February 2001 until February of 2005.

Q. So am I correct that you testified earlier that it was

working at Tilth that was one of the things that basically got

you straightened out with regard to this radicalism?

A. It was one of three main influences, I would say.

Q. Am I correct that the dates you just gave, you were

working at Tilth at the time you burned down the building?

A. Yes, to my great shame, I was -- you know, dishonored my

employer.

Q. You've come here and you've indicated and you've thrown it

in from time to time how bad you feel about being here, right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In fact, you don't like Briana Waters because she told you

who you are and she put it right in your face and you don't

like her, you didn't like her and you don't like her today?

A. I bear no hostility to Briana. I feel a lot of sympathy

that she's in this situation. I feel sympathy for Justin

who's fled. The decision of how to deal with a crime like

this is heart breaking and painful no matter how you choose to

deal with it.
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842

Q. Have you seen her movie, Watch?

A. No, I have never seen it.

Q. You know of it, right?

A. I remember her talking about it and referencing it that

weekend.

Q. Do you remember -- you say that weekend. You keep talking

about that's when you saw her.

Did you see her any other times?

A. Not that I remember.

Q. When did she have this conversation with you when she told

you off?

A. One of those two weekends when we were working on the

University of Washington arson. That's the only way that I

know her.

Q. She had it wrong because you had not had sex with her

boyfriend; is that correct?

A. I did not ever have sex with Justin Solondz.

Q. So she had it wrong, whenever it was?

A. If she believed that. It wasn't entirely clear to me that

she believed that.

Q. She didn't say to you words to the effect that, you slept

with my boyfriend and you are a so-and-so?

A. The conversation is not clear in my mind. I don't

remember it very well at all. I didn't remember it at all

until you mentioned it today.
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843

Q. It came up before today, didn't it? Weren't you asked

about it, whether or not you had an affair with Justin

Solondz, by the prosecution?

A. An argument with Briana was never mentioned to me before.

Q. Was whether or not you had --

A. I have been asked that, yes.

Q. And you denied it then, as well as now; correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I see you sighing about that, right?

A. Yes, sir. Again, I am just not sure why one way or the

other it has anything to do with whether or not Briana

committed an arson. It's kind of crazy to be raked over the

coals about being an unprincipled slut for something that's

unrelated.

Q. Well, it has to do -- and this is my last question on

this -- you were asked early on yesterday by Mr. Friedman: Do

you bear any ill will toward Briana Waters, and your answer

is: I have sympathy for everyone involved in this case. You

did not answer the question.

So I asked you the question: Do you have ill will. It's

about ill will and how you feel about her, no matter what you

say.

How do you feel about her?

A. I don't -- you've mentioned the term unprincipled slut,

and I don't bear you ill will either. I don't bear ill will
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844

to the prosecutors, to Briana, to the people who are my former

friends and have turned their back on me; I do not bear them

ill will.

Q. People turn their back on other people sometimes when they

become informants, and especially so when they lie about what

happened.

You know that, don't you?

A. No, not from firsthand experience.

Q. Now, did there come a time when you went to the Oregon

State University girdling action?

Do you remember going to that?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember Mr. Meyerhoff was there?

A. He drove the car.

Q. He drove what car?

A. He drove a van.

Q. And was that Justin Solondz' van?

A. No.

Q. It was not?

A. If Justin had a van, I don't know about it.

Q. Was it Justin Solondz' vehicle?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Now, did you come to know that in the Susanville arson,

one of the participants was Joe Dibee?

Did you come to know that?
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845

A. I've read that in court papers.

Q. Did you come to learn that --

A. I think.

Q. Did you come to learn that one of the vehicles that was

brought to that arson was Mr. Dibee's own, registered in his

name, four wheel Toyota?

Did you come to learn that?

MR. FRIEDMAN: Objection, Your Honor. She has no

knowledge of any of these things.

THE COURT: Well, she can answer yes or no, and then

we will move on.

A. I haven't taken particular note of that detail from the

pleadings.

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. Did you come to know that your own boyfriend/fiancee drove

his own silver Acura to that arson?

A. No, sir, I didn't know that.

Q. Have you come to learn that the Vail -- the Vail, Colorado

arson, that Avalon took his own truck?

Did you come to learn that?

MR. FRIEDMAN: Your Honor, she has no personal

knowledge of these facts.

THE COURT: I understand, and she can respond to

that. I don't know what Mr. Bloom is after here. She can

answer yes or no. If she didn't hear about it or know about
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846

it --

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. You have indicated, am I correct, that getting a car that

was not in anybody's name, any of the participants' name was

really important, sometimes the deal breaker, right?

A. And the examples you just gave would tend to illustrate

how difficult that was to come by a car.

Q. I am sorry?

A. It's difficult to come by a truly anonymous car.

Q. So if you don't, then you use somebody's car, one of the

participants' car? That's what happened time after time after

time in these activities? They used their own cars; isn't

that correct?

A. Sir, I was only involved in one arson.

Q. With regard to the accident that you say happened when the

car was leaving, or the van or whatever the vehicle, was

leaving the scene of the University of Washington arson, I

think you testified that it felt like the impact was huge?

A. In my innervated state, yes, it felt huge.

Q. In what?

A. In my highly anxious, innervated state, it felt huge.

Q. Was it loud?

A. No, I don't remember a noise.

Q. What do you mean by huge?

A. Leaving the site, scene of the crime, any accident at all
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847

felt like a big deal.

Q. How fast would you estimate the car was going?

A. We were going around a Connor, so it was pretty slow.

Q. How slow?

A. Five miles an hour.

Q. Five miles an hour. That's how the vehicle was going,

five miles an hour? You were getting away from the scene, and

your estimate is five miles an hour?

A. We were driving on crowded residential streets late at

night.

Q. Did you have the lights on in your car, headlights?

A. I assume so, yeah.

Q. What part of the vehicle was hit?

A. It was the rear driver's side or door panel, I am not sure

which.

Q. Did you ever get yourself to see the damage?

A. No, I didn't get out of the car to look at it at that

point, and I didn't see it later either.

Q. When you say you didn't see it later, there did come a

time obviously when you got out of the car, right?

A. Yeah.

Q. Where was the car when you got out of the car?

A. I don't have a distinct memory of that.

Q. Well, was it in a park?

A. Sir, I don't have a distinct memory of that.
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848

Q. Who was in the car at the time?

A. When I got out?

Q. Uh-huh.

A. I don't have a distinct memory of that. I can tell you

who was in it when I got in.

Q. Who was in it when you got in?

A. The people in the car when I got into the car were Justin,

Avalon, Briana, Jen and myself.

Q. Five people in the car?

A. Five people.

Q. How many in the front? How many in the back?

A. There were two seats in the front and three in the back.

You mentioned a van a minute ago; it wasn't a van.

Q. Do you have any reason to know why Kolar would have said

at her first interview that it might have been a van?

A. Perhaps she was involved in multiple arsons.

Q. You don't have any independent knowledge of why she might

have said that; correct?

A. No, I have no independent knowledge of her.

Q. Now, did there come a time -- can you tell the jury what

ELAW is?

A. It's that conference in Eugene, Oregon. It's sponsored by

the University of Oregon Law School.

Q. Is it a public conference?

A. Yes, I think so.
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849

Q. Have there been ELAW conferences that you have attended?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you attend the one in the year 2000?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Was there a panel where you were one of the speakers?

A. There were multiple panels where I was a speaker one year.

It might have been that year.

Q. Do you remember telling the people assembled at that panel

that nonviolence is being used to limit your movement?

A. No.

Q. Do you remember telling the panel and the people who were

listening that nonviolence is not the way change happens?

A. No.

Q. Do you remember talking about what you called the cult of

nonviolence?

A. There's an article by a professor by that title that I

referenced, yes.

Q. Did you believe at that time that there was such a thing

as the cult of nonviolence?

A. I am sorry, what?

Q. Did you believe at that time that there was such a thing

as a cult of nonviolence?

A. No.

Q. Did you tell the panel or one of those panels that

property destruction must be an available tactic?
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850

A. Yes, I probably advocated property destruction.

Q. Did you tell the people that you shouldn't let the fear of

jail deter you?

A. I don't know if I said that.

Q. Do you remember saying that it was not important to reach

out to middle class white people?

A. I don't believe I would have said that.

Q. You did come to know that -- well, one more thing.

Do you remember saying that we, the movement, must combine

night sabotage and daytime actions?

A. I think that might have been the tenor of my remarks, yes.

Q. I am sorry?

A. I think what was the tenor of my remarks.

Q. What did you mean by nighttime sabotage?

A. Property destruction, road blockades, field trials, the

type of actions we were doing there.

Q. Not arsons, right?

A. No, I never wanted to be involved in an arson before it

happened. I distinctly did not want to be involved.

Q. You just got pulled into it, right, with no free will of

your own?

A. I had free will. Do you want me to tell you why I think I

went along with it?

Q. Was it because Meyerhoff wanted you to?

A. No.
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851

Q. Do you know who a guy by the name of David Carr is?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell the jury who David Carr is.

A. David Carr is a journalist that I know.

Q. Would you describe him as one of your mentors?

A. He has mentored me.

Q. Is he a journalist for the New York Times?

A. He's a columnist for the New York Times.

Q. Is it fair to say that you met him at a conference, a

convention at San Antonio, the Association of Alternative

Newspapers?

A. Yes, that's where I met him.

Q. Do you remember seeing him perhaps twice in New York?

A. I saw him once in New York, I believe.

Q. Do you remember telling him, after you had agreed to

cooperate, telling him what your problem was?

A. I did tell David that I was in legal trouble, yeah.

Q. Do you remember telling him in a telephone conversation

that you had not cooperated with the feds?

A. No, I don't think I ever told him that.

Q. Do you remember telling this man -- he was a friend,

right?

A. It's a formal relationship because he's a much more

accomplished journalist than I ever was, but I felt friendly

towards him, yes.
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852

Q. Do you remember telling him that you didn't tell the feds

anything that they didn't already know?

A. I don't remember telling him that.

Q. Do you remember telling him that the fact that you were

romantically involved with one of the people is what caused

you to transgress your own values?

A. I don't remember -- I had a conversation with David where

I told him I was in legal trouble. That's what I remember.

If you have some notes or something to improve my memory, I

would be happy to look at them.

Q. Sure, let me show them to you. I have marked them as

A-190. I do have an extra copy for the Court.

(Exhibit A-190 marked for identification.)

MR. BLOOM: Let the record reflect that it's a

two-page document being shown to the witness to refresh her

recollection.

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. Have you been able to read that?

A. Yes, I scanned it.

Q. Take as much time as you want to read it and understand

it. Is there anything in there that refreshes your

recollection about the questions I asked you?

A. It refreshes my recollection of the conversation -- well,

it's clearly David's perspective on the conversation that I

had with him.
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853

Q. Well, did you tell David Carr, in a telephone conversation

sometime after February 21 of 2006, did you tell him that you

had not cooperated with the feds?

A. I don't know what date I talked to David.

Q. I am sorry?

A. I don't know if I talked to him before or after. This

says that I told him I didn't. I didn't have any reason to

lie to him. I probably hadn't talked to the feds at that

point.

I also would just like to note, this says there's somebody

who knows Stacy, but it's not me, the best of luck in

defending your client.

Q. That's correct.

A. David believed that he was talking to my attorneys when he

had this conversation, and my perception is that your

investigator misrepresented themselves to my friend.

Q. Excuse me, but it says here, "You now remember that David

said what?" Could you repeat what you said? That when David

had this conversation?

A. He understood that he was talking to someone who worked

for my attorney.

Q. How do you know that?

A. David wrote me a letter saying that my attorney had

threatened to subpoena him and he was very upset about it.

Q. So the situation here -- it says here, the best of luck in
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854

defending your client. That's the last comment in this report

of an interview by our investigator; is that correct? Best of

luck in defending your client?

A. David thought he was talking to someone who worked for my

attorney.

Q. And that he was defending -- that he or she was defending

you?

A. Yes, that my attorney defends me.

Q. Do you have a copy of that letter?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. I don't assume you have it with you; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. It's in your belongings at Sea-Tac?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you think we could get a copy of that letter from David

Carr?

A. Sir, I feel like you've harassed a prominent person who

knows me. I don't really want to drag David's name into this.

Q. Whoever he was talking to -- let's give you that --

whoever he thought he was talking to, is he correct when he

said that, in a phone conversation that Lacey had with me,

David Carr, she maintained that she had not cooperated with

the feds?

Did you say that to him in a telephone conversation?

A. I don't know.
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855

Q. Did you say to him in a telephone conversation that you

had been accused of cooperating with the feds, but that you

had never told the feds anything that they didn't already

know?

Did you say that to David Carr? No matter what this

letter is about, no matter who he spoke to, the question is:

Did you say that to the New York Times journalist, David Carr,

I didn't tell the feds anything they didn't already know?

A. I don't know.

Q. Try to remember.

A. I confessed to a prominent person who I knew that I had

been involved in a major federal crime. I wanted to apologize

to him and to kind of find out where we stood with each other.

That's what I remember of the conversation.

Q. So your testimony is you don't remember whether -- one way

or another -- whether you said that you didn't tell the feds

anything they didn't already know?

You don't remember one way or another if you said that to

David Carr?

A. Yes, sir, that is my testimony. Three times so far, I

believe.

Q. Did you send e-mails to Brian Baker?

A. Yes, sir, I have sent e-mails to Brian Baker.

Q. You were hoping that he would write a letter for you, for

Judge Burgess; is that correct?
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856

A. Mr. Baker did write such a letter.

Q. One of the things that you told Mr. Baker, in writing, is

I didn't betray anyone; is that correct?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. I am going to get it in order so I can give copies to

everyone, but I will show it to you in a little while. I am

going to ask my co-counsel to try to put it together because

it's one of those series of e-mails where they come in reverse

order as they are printed out. So we've got to find one.

Did you write to Jeff Hogg by e-mail?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you tell him, "I didn't betray anyone"?

A. Mr. Bloom, I have been clear that I believed that the

story was coming out. I thought the truth was coming out. I

did not feel that confirming what the feds already knew was a

betrayal of anyone.

Q. So you believe that what you were telling the feds is what

they already knew?

A. Yes, and strangely enough, Jennifer Kolar didn't name me.

I fingered myself because of my guilty conscience.

Q. So aside from what she said or didn't say about you, I

want to get back to the point here, that you believe what you

were telling them were things they already knew; is that

correct?

A. Yes, I did have some feeling that they knew most of what I
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857

knew, yeah.

Q. Right. Be specific, if you will. Please answer my

question specifically.

Did you tell them what you believed they already knew?

A. No.

Q. I thought you just said that a moment ago.

A. I told them what I knew. I thought they knew it already.

I was wrong.

Q. You told them -- here's my question. Please listen.

You told them what you thought they already knew; isn't

that correct?

A. Emphatically, no.

Q. Didn't you just say that a moment ago, that's what you

told, what you thought they knew?

A. Isn't it funny that you kind of restate it that way, and

it seems like you are saying one thing, but it really has a

dual meaning.

Q. Let's go back. Let's start over. None of those

questions. Let's start over, okay? I don't want to trick

you. I want you to answer the questions as best you can?

Did you tell them, the feds, the investigators, the people

at this table what you thought they already knew?

A. I thought they knew the general outline of what happened.

I told them what I knew.

Q. I don't think you are answering my question. Did you tell
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858

them what you thought they already knew?

A. I think that's a funny way to phrase the question because

it has multiple meanings.

Q. Let me try to break it down.

You're sitting there in Mr. Friedman's office the very

first day; is that right?

A. I was sitting in a conference at the federal building on

February 21st, yes.

Q. You were there, Mr. Offenbecher, your attorney, was there?

Was there someone else from his office or just Mr.

Offenbecher?

A. Someone else from his office.

Q. No one else?

A. His assistant was there.

Q. A young woman? A woman? A man?

A. Excuse me, a woman.

Q. Mr. Friedman was there?

A. Mr. Friedman was there.

Q. Was Mr. Bartlett there?

A. Mr. -- I don't know. I think he was there -- yes, he was

there the first day.

Q. Was Agent Halla, the fellow at the end, was he there?

A. Yes, he was there.

Q. Was there any other agent, maybe Agent Torres?

A. Mr. Torres was there.
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859

Q. Anyone else that you can remember?

A. In that first interview, I think that was everyone that

was there.

Q. There came a time when you decided, during that meeting,

that you were going to give them information; is that correct?

A. Yeah, kind of right before that meeting when Lauren told

me that Chelsea and Suzanne were cooperating, that kind of

sealed the deal for me in any mind.

I was unsure what would happen. You know, I didn't make

an affirmative decision to do it, but I walked in that door

and the story came out.

Q. Well, when you say Lauren told you. Before you actually

went into the FBI office, you and your father met Lauren

either at or in front of a cafe?

A. That's correct.

Q. And the cafe was the Seattle Anarchist Cafe, something

like that?

A. I think it has a different name. If it was an anarchist

cafe, I didn't know it. I am not really familiar with

Seattle.

Q. The woman here in the red outfit; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. She gave you certain information on that morning; is that

correct?

A. She told me she thought Suzanne and Chelsea were
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860

cooperating, and we also talked that day about 924(c) and if

there was any way around that.

Q. What is 924(c)?

A. Use or possession of an incendiary device in furtherance

of a crime of violence. It carries a 30-year mandatory

minimum.

Q. So she as a lawyer and you -- did you discuss that right

there that morning?

A. Yes.

Q. Had you discussed that prior to that morning with her?

A. 924(c), I am not sure.

Q. Had you had discussions after she got back around

Christmastime, Christmas Day, or thereafter, about the case in

general?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In fact, you wanted to get information from her as much as

you could; is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. She had access to the information because she was in some

way involved in the Oregon case; is that correct?

A. I think that she was involved, yes.

Q. As an attorney?

A. I am unsure what her capacity was.

Q. Did there come a time between December 26th and February

21st that you and Lauren Regan had a conversation where you
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861

asked her: Did Briana Waters' name come up in this case?

A. I don't remember that. It might have happened. I don't

know.

Q. Well, you were trolling for some way out of your

predicament?

A. No, I was trolling to understand the parameters of my

predicament.

Q. Was it explained to you, either by Lauren or by any other

lawyer or by any friends, that it's of no value to the feds to

give them names they already know, you have to come up with a

new name in order to get any kind of play with them?

A. No, that was never explained.

Q. That was never explained?

A. It was never explained and, in my experience, it's not

accurate either. The prosecutors offered cooperation deals to

everyone involved with the case whether or not they named new

names or not. I don't really know but --

Q. Did they ask you if you knew where Justin Solondz was?

A. They probably -- yeah, I think they've asked that.

Q. He was a fugitive; is that correct? Or at least he hadn't

been arrested; is that correct?

A. He's not arrested.

Q. Still not arrested?

A. Yeah.

Q. At the time, he was not arrested? On December 7th or any
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862

day since; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. So is that something with which the feds wanted some help?

A. They asked me if I knew where he was.

Q. So they wanted your help on that; is that correct?

A. If I had information, they wanted it, yes.

Q. So they wanted you to take from that that they wanted new

information?

A. They never asked me about Justin Solondz except -- until I

had named him.

Q. Then they asked you, do you know where he is, right?

Words to that -- or questions to that effect?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. They wanted to know that new information; is that correct?

A. Yes, they wanted to know where Justin Solondz was.

Q. Was there a time, sometime in February of '06, before the

21st, that you went to Mr. Friedman's office, where you took a

walk along the river with Lauren Regan and you asked her, in

the documents that you've gotten, the discovery documents

you've gotten in the Oregon case, has Briana Waters' name come

up?

You don't remember that?

A. I don't remember asking her that. I think I probably

would have been reluctant to say Briana's name. I might have

asked her that, though.
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863

Q. Let's talk about the day you went to speak to the feds,

February 21st.

Did they ask you what happened at the University of

Washington arson?

A. No.

Q. They did not ask you?

A. They asked me my name, some background information and

some generalized questions, and I confessed my criminal

activity.

Q. You had not known until that day, at that meeting, that

you were going to confess; is that correct?

A. I wasn't sure what I was going to do.

Q. Were you scared you were going to go to prison for 35

years if you didn't tell them?

A. Yes.

Q. You made a decision right there in that office at that

time to save yourself; is that correct?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Now, you've indicated a couple times that this was about

remorse. There had been no remorse for two-and-a-half months

since Meyerhoff's remorse; is that correct? You had not

expressed remorse?

A. No, I had expressed remorse.

Q. To the Federal authorities?

A. No.
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864

Q. To your mother, your father and some friends?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Did you express remorse to Stan Meyerhoff?

A. I don't know. Stan was in jail and we had very limited

communication.

Q. But you had some communications, right?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw him at least once?

A. I saw him only once.

Q. You saw him once where you pointed to your chest and asked

if he had named you, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have telephone conversations with him?

A. Yes, I had telephone contact with him, starting on

Christmas.

Q. But it was very difficult because you knew everything was

probably being listened to and censored and monitored; is that

correct?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. So you had to be very careful about what you said; is that

correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You didn't want to incriminate yourself or have him

incriminate himself?

A. Or incriminate me.
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865

Q. Or incriminate you. So you were concerned. When did you

first learn that he had been cooperating since two hours after

he was arrested?

A. Well, I strongly suspected that the day after when I

talked with him and he said this very fatalistic thing -- I

don't remember what it was -- and I told him to get an

attorney. And then there came a point where he said this

thing to me, which stuck in my mind, he said that I betrayed

everyone.

Q. When he said betrayed, what did you take that to mean?

A. That he was cooperating to the best of his ability.

Q. I can't remember, did you say you do or don't remember

that you used the word betrayed; that you wrote to Jeff Hogg

and others, saying "I did not betray anyone"? Do you or do

you not remember that? I am asking again because I don't

remember the answer.

A. I don't remember the answer either. It's possible I used

those words.

Q. If you did, then what did you mean by your use of the word

betrayed?

A. No one is going to prison because of me, is what I would

have meant.

Q. That's what you meant, that nobody is going to prison

because of you?

A. I didn't think I had given any names that the federal
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866

authorities did not already know.

Q. Isn't that the question I asked you 12 minutes ago, where

you denied that? You just said now, I don't believe -- I

believe I didn't give them any names they didn't already know?

A. No. The way you said it was, did you tell them what they

already knew? You rephrased the question like that a number

of ways, a number of times.

Q. Now you've just answered it?

A. No, that's a different question.

Q. Whatever it is, however the question came up. You just

said to us, and to this jury, I didn't give them any names

they didn't already know.

A. I believed that, and I was wrong. I named myself.

Q. Other than yourself, is it true that you didn't give them

any names they didn't already know?

A. I don't know what they knew and what they didn't know. I

think that I definitely fingered myself definitively. They

may have had my name already. I am not privy to what the

government knew.

Q. You knew, your family had been contacted and told that you

were facing serious problems, right?

A. Yes.

Q. So you knew somehow they had your name?

A. I assumed Jen Kolar had given it to them.

Q. You learned your boyfriend had also given them your name
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867

-- I shouldn't say also -- that your boyfriend had given them

your name; he told you so?

A. Yeah, he did tell me that.

Q. So you knew, by the time you spoke to them, that they had

your name?

A. Well, yes, they had my name. They called me. My number

was up.

MR. BLOOM: Judge Burgess, the prosecutor had asked

if it's okay to interrupt the witness's testimony so that they

can call one or two other witnesses. We will do that. We

hadn't actually given a definitive answer, but I would be

happy to do that. If we could do that now, would that be all

right?

THE COURT: Well, if you get to the witnesses after

the break, can you finish them today?

MR. FRIEDMAN: Yes.

MR. BLOOM: Because I do have a lot more questions.

THE COURT: Keep going.

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. I do want to talk about what you told the feds on that

very first day. Did you tell them about the University of

Washington arson?

A. Yes, I volunteered that information.

Q. When you say you volunteered it. Did they actually ask

about the Center for Urban Horticulture, or did you bring it
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868

up first, say there's something I want to tell you?

How did that come up?

A. I am not sure. I think I brought it up without them ever

asking about it. I am not sure.

Q. Did you first tell them, before you talked about that

incident, did you first tell them about the five book club

meetings?

A. I am not sure what order the conversation happened in. I

did tell them about the five book club meetings.

Q. Did you tell them that there came a time when you were

dropped off at Denny's, sometime a week before the incident?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you tell them it was either Denny's or Perkins?

A. Yes.

Q. So you weren't quite clear on that at the time you first

told them; is that correct?

A. I have been back to the Denny's since then.

Q. So now you are clear?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you tell them, without being asked, that Briana and

Connor had recently broken up?

A. I would have told them that. That was my understanding.

Q. And that just came up, when the name Connor came up,

brought up by you, you volunteered, without being asked, that

Connor and Briana had just broken up; is that correct?
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869

A. I am not sure whether I was asked or not asked. I think I

probably described Briana as his recent ex-girlfriend. That

was my understanding. It still is my understanding.

Q. Now, we've talked about the meeting that you now recall

was at Denny's. Was Jennifer Kolar there?

A. I am not sure. I don't think I remembered at first that

she was. I am really not sure. She might have been, she

might not.

Q. As I think you testified, the arson wasn't planned in any

part at that restaurant, what's called Denny's. There was no

arson planned in discussion at that restaurant; is that

correct?

A. The arson was not plotted there, no. Not while I was

there.

Q. I am sorry?

A. Not while I was there.

Q. Was there a time you left to go to the bathroom or take a

walk or make a phone call?

A. During the course of the interview?

Q. During the course of the meeting that took place at

Denny's.

A. I don't remember.

Q. Now, I think you said that after you all left Denny's --

somebody ordered food, and then you left Denny's and you went

somewhere together and had a discussion?
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870

A. No. You asked me where we went afterwards. I said it

would make sense that that would happen, but I don't have a

memory of it.

Q. So the meeting at Denny's took place what date, what day

of the week?

A. I believe it would have been Friday or Saturday, a week

prior to the arson.

Q. Okay. You don't recall Jennifer Kolar being at Denny's;

is that correct?

A. No. I am unsure if she was there.

Q. I am sorry?

A. I am unsure if she was there. I think she might have

been.

Q. You are also unsure whether right after Denny's, whoever

was there, went to some open area and had a discussion? You

don't remember; is that correct?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Well, do you remember, did there come a time when you left

the area of Denny's?

A. I don't remember. I am sorry, I thought you meant while I

was there. I don't remember leaving for sure or going to the

bathroom or anything while I was there. Obviously we left

Denny's at some point.

Q. Right. And where did you go? You don't remember anything

about where you went?
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871

A. No, sir, I don't remember where we went. The next clear

memory I have is being on the track the next morning.

Q. So you don't remember whether or not there was a meeting,

after you left Denny's, until the time you were on the track

the next morning?

A. No, I don't remember.

Q. Okay. So you don't remember one way or another.

When you say the next morning, what day of the week was

that?

A. The next morning, it was probably Saturday morning or

Sunday morning.

Q. Can you remember which it was?

A. Not with any absolute certainty.

Q. Was there a meeting any time after you were on the track?

A. Yeah.

Q. Where was that meeting?

A. We met in a park-like area in a field.

Q. And who was at that meeting?

A. Myself, Jennifer Kolar, Briana Waters, Justin Solondz, and

Avalon.

Q. How did you get from the track to that meeting?

A. I can't answer that question.

Q. How long did that meeting take?

A. I don't know. The significant features of that meeting in

my mind were that Jen described breaking the window. I asked
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872

that we not use the term ELF, and we vowed, agreed not to

cooperate.

Q. Was there any meeting after that, that weekend.

A. I believe that all of these meetings happened -- the first

weekend we met at Evergreen one time, and in my memory it

would seem that meeting was after that park meeting.

Q. At the Evergreen meeting, was the arson discussed?

A. Yes.

Q. And Evergreen is the state college or state university?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it a place where -- were you in a room?

A. I remembered that we went -- and I couldn't describe the

building we went in -- and walking through this labyrinth. I

read somewhere Jen had described it as a computer lab, and I

didn't remember it that way, but once I read it, it actually

kind of triggered that it was off a computer lab, is what I

remember.

Q. Computer lab. Was it a locked room?

A. Sir, I don't know.

Q. Were there students, a lot of students at the University;

is that correct?

A. There are lots of students at Evergreen University, yes.

Q. And there was a meeting, you say, about an arson in a room

where there were possibly students who could walk in or

faculty who could walk in; is that correct?
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873

A. They could have walked in.

Q. Was Kolar there?

A. I believe she was, yes. I think she was.

Q. Did anybody say, why are you meeting here in a public

room, somebody could walk in?

A. I don't remember that conversation happening.

Q. You would have been aware of that, right? You were

somewhat security conscious, right?

A. That would have been fitting with security protocols that

were comfortable to me.

Q. I am not sure what you mean by that?

A. That was consistent with our security culture.

Q. What was? Meeting in a room where somebody could walk?

A. Speaking in an empty room, unassociated, guaranteed to be

bug free.

Q. Aside from bug free, was it a room that was open to the

students and public in general, and faculty?

A. Briana and Justin seemed familiar with the room.

Q. And they were both there?

A. Yes.

Q. And what happened after that meeting?

A. Let's see. I think in the timeline, the next thing I

remember would be driving back to Eugene.

Q. In whose car?

A. In Stan's car. And we stopped at the pullout on the
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874

opposite side of the highway than the one we had stopped at on

the way up.

Q. How did you get to meet with Stan?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Did he pick you up at Evergreen?

A. That's possible.

Q. Do you remember?

A. No, I don't remember. I just said that.

Q. So you and he took -- somewhere or another you wound up in

his car; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you drove to Eugene?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it just the two of you, or were there other people?

A. I believe Suzanne Savoie and Daniel McGowan were there.

Q. Did you talk about any plans for any arsons in the car?

A. No.

Q. Where did you go when you went back to Eugene?

A. I don't remember where I was dropped off.

Q. Did you live in Eugene?

A. I lived in Eugene at that point.

Q. Where were you living in Eugene?

A. It would have been in the house with Lauren Regan.

Q. The same Lauren Regan?

A. The same.
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875

Q. You didn't tell her you were planning an arson, right?

A. I didn't tell Lauren that I was planning an arson. I

believe Lauren knew that I was involved in underground

activities and was supportive of that.

Q. Did you tell her you were planning an arson?

A. I wasn't planning an arson. I didn't tell her I was about

to be involved in one.

Q. You were not planning an arson?

A. Like I said, I had minimal involvement in the planning.

What I did in that timeframe was buy some black clothes, some

black dark clothes.

Q. Did you conceal from Lauren Regan what you were about to

do?

A. I concealed from everyone what I was about to do, except

for the people directly involved.

Q. So you were able to deceive people about what was on your

mind; is that correct?

A. Deception is not a particular skill that I have. I had to

learn how to be evasive when I started being involved with

this group of people. It was difficult for me because I was,

especially at that point, a very, very open,

apt-to-put-what-I-thought-into-words person.

Q. In any event, you did not open up, of course, and tell

anyone you were about to be involved in burning down a

building; is that correct?
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876

A. Correct.

Q. You were able to keep that a secret; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, going back to that first weekend, was there a time,

was there a meeting at Evergreen where -- who was present at

that meeting?

A. The same people.

MR. FRIEDMAN: Objection, Your Honor. This has all

been asked and answered.

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. Was Jennifer Kolar at that meeting?

MR. FRIEDMAN: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Bloom, any reason why we are going

back and forth over the same --

MR. BLOOM: Yes, Your Honor. I am about to ask her

what she told -- about to impeach her where she indicated that

Jennifer Kolar was not at that meeting, as she told them on

the 21st.

A. Yes, sir, I do not remember the conversation about fuel,

how much --

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. About fuel?

A. About how much fuel to use on the 21st.

Q. No, that's not my question. My question is, on the 21st

of February of 2006, did you tell Mr. Friedman, and everybody
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877

else who was present, that Diver was not there at the

Evergreen meeting?

A. I may have said that on February 21st.

Q. Would that have been true or not true?

A. That was accurate to my recollection at that point in

time.

Q. So is there something that helped you refresh your

recollection?

A. Yeah. Actually, I think I did remember the conversation

about fuel at that first interview, but later I remembered it

was Jen who advocated for using less fuel.

Q. My question is, on the first day you spoke to law

enforcement, did you in fact tell them that Diver, Jennifer

Kolar, was not present at the meeting you say took place at

Evergreen? Did you tell them that on the 21st, February of

2006?

A. I believe I could have told them that, yes.

Q. You were essentially making it up as you went along in

February 2006; is that correct?

A. I think that would be a gross mischaracterization of what

I just said.

Q. You know you had committed the arson; is that correct?

A. Yes, I know I had committed the arson.

Q. You knew Jennifer Kolar was one of the people who

committed the arson with you; is that correct?
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878

A. Yes, sir. That's why I named her.

Q. But you didn't name her as being at that meeting that you

say took place at Evergreen; is that correct?

A. I just answered that question.

Q. Was she in fact at one of the meetings that weekend, or

more than one?

A. I remember her very distinctly, or somewhat distinctly, at

the meeting in the grass and at the Evergreen meeting.

Q. So you remember her being at two of the meetings; is that

correct?

A. I have distinct recollections of conversations that she

was part of at two of the meetings, that's correct.

Q. Did you tell Mr. Friedman and his associates on the 21st

that she, Diver, was at one of the meetings that weekend?

A. I am not sure. I haven't looked at the reports from those

interviews.

Q. Do you have an independent recollection that you said that

Diver was at one of the meetings that weekend?

A. That seems accurate.

Q. Now, the next weekend you say you drove up from Eugene, is

it to Olympia?

A. The next weekend I drove up from Eugene to Olympia, I

believe, yes.

Q. With whom did you drive up?

A. I believe it was with the same four people.
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879

Q. Who would that be?

A. Stan Meyerhoff, Suzanne Savoie, Daniel McGowan, and

myself.

Q. Now, from Eugene to Olympia, what direction is that?

A. North.

Q. And about how long a drive is it between Eugene and

Olympia?

A. I don't know. It's been a long time since I drove it.

Q. What's your best estimate?

A. Four, five hours; I don't know.

Q. Okay. Do you know where Clatskanie, Oregon, is?

A. I do now. I didn't at that point. I think I know -- no,

I don't really know where it is now.

Q. Well, it is certainly south of Olympia, right?

A. It's in Oregon, yes.

Q. Am I correct that the people you say you drove up with --

Meyerhoff, Savoie, McGowan -- were they in some way involved

in the Clatskanie incident?

A. Meyerhoff, Savoie, McGowan, Block, and Zacher are the

people who I thought were involved in the incident and who

pled guilty to that.

Q. So you have them driving from Eugene up to Olympia; is

that correct?

A. I believe they probably went to Nathan and Joy's house,

but I don't have any way to verify that.
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880

Q. You were with them on the ride, you say?

A. Are we talking about the weekend of the arson?

Q. The weekend you committed the arson.

A. I believe that is how I got there. I remember I was in a

car with the same people the next weekend, yes.

Q. And what day was that?

A. Let's see. I think it was -- the arson happened on early

Monday. It was either Saturday or Sunday of that weekend.

Q. Think back. Was it Saturday or Sunday or some other day?

A. Well, it would have only been one of those two days. I

think it was Sunday.

Q. So on Sunday you drove up. What time did you leave

Eugene?

A. I have no idea, sir.

Q. Was it in the morning?

A. I have no idea.

Q. Was it light out?

A. Sir, I don't know.

Q. You remember being in the car with the particular people,

but you can't tell us whether it was even light or dark?

A. I know I drove in the car with the same people the next

weekend. That's my best recollection.

Q. Where did you go on that Sunday when you drove from Eugene

to Olympia?

A. I don't know. To Olympia.
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881

Q. What part of Olympia?

A. Sir, I can provide no additional detail on that question.

Q. Somebody's home, somebody's office, some restaurant?

MR. FRIEDMAN: Objection. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: She said she has no recollection.

MR. BLOOM: Okay, no recollection.

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. Did there come a time when Stan Meyerhoff, you saw him

assisting in the construction of incendiary devices?

A. No, I didn't see him assisting in the construction.

Q. Did you see Connor doing so?

A. I didn't witness that firsthand, except at the point when

I was taken into the clean room.

Q. I didn't hear the last part?

A. I didn't witness anything happening with the incendiary

devices except at the point where I was taken into the clean

room.

Q. Was Meyerhoff there in that house or the area of that

house?

A. It's possible that I saw him there at one point, but it's

a hazy memory.

Q. Well, he was your boyfriend.

A. No, he wasn't my boyfriend at that point.

Q. Had you been flirting with him at that point?

A. I was starting to have a flirtatious relationship with
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882

him.

Q. So you are not aware -- you believe you saw him in what

you are calling the clean room?

A. Huh-huh.

Q. In the area of the clean room?

A. If I saw him, it was walking from the right access, the

fenced opening of the house, to the outbuilding, walking in

between.

Q. Was it light out?

A. Yes, if this memory is accurate, which I am not sure that

it is.

Q. So you are not sure; is that correct?

A. If I saw that, I knew I wasn't supposed to see it, so I

would have put it out of my mind.

Q. And you were not supposed to see it why?

A. The two actions were supposed to remain independent of one

another, as far as I was concerned.

Q. And that was the information that you had, is that

correct, that there were two actions?

A. I had an understanding that two crimes were going to be

committed. I didn't know they were both arsons.

Q. Okay. You mentioned a clean room. What is a clean room?

A. It's a room free of our genetic material and identifying

information and material associated with the site.

Q. And the idea behind a clean room is that a hair or some
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skin or any kind of material that would identify a person, a

clean room should not involve that. That's the whole idea, it

should be clean of those kind of things; is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is it also true, based on the manuals written by your

fiance and Avalon, that the clean room should be associated

only with a person who is not involved in the arson?

A. I can't speak to anything in the manuals.

Q. Well, were there discussions about what a clean room

should be that you participated in?

A. I think at that Santa Cruz meeting, the book club meeting

there was a conversation about the clean rooms.

Q. Am I correct that it was made clear that clean rooms are

supposed to be unassociated, unconnected with any of the

people who will be participating in the arson?

A. The fact that there were deviations from the perfect crime

is completely consistent with the way the groups operated.

Q. Could you answer my question? Were there discussions that

indicated that a clean room should never be associated with a

person who is a participant in the arson?

A. I don't remember that being part of the Santa Cruz

conversation. It would have been your fibers and materials

shouldn't be in the space.

Q. In fact, the place that you are claiming the clean room

was, was a garage at Conger Avenue in Olympia?
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A. I don't know the street name. It was Briana's house, as

far as I am concerned.

Q. And Briana lived, her living space was in that garage?

A. It wasn't at that point.

Q. And how do you know that?

A. There wasn't a bed.

Q. In fact, the main house was owned by a man named Ocean; is

that correct?

A. I knew that someone named Ocean was associated with the

house.

Q. And in fact, at that time, the middle of May, he was not

living at that house. You came to learn that, didn't you?

A. I associated this person, Ocean, with the house. I don't

know whether I thought he lived there, was about to move in

there. Maybe they were waiting for a wheelchair ramp to be

built, I don't know.

Q. In fact, what was happening, Ocean had been in an

automobile accident where he was very severely injured and he

was a person who had to use a wheelchair. You know that,

right?

A. No, except that I have been told that.

Q. And in fact, that third week and beyond, the third week of

May and beyond, and before, there were workers working on the

main house, not just to build a wheelchair ramp, but to make

it accessible and liveable for a person with a wheelchair.
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885

Did you see any of that happening?

A. I kind of have a memory that maybe a wheelchair ramp was

in progress or was about to be built there, but I was there on

the weekends.

Q. So, in fact, there was construction; do you remember there

was construction going on in the main house?

A. I only saw a very limited part of the main house. I don't

really remember a big construction project.

Q. In fact, did you come to know that nobody was living in

the main house at that time because of the construction?

A. Did I come to know that?

Q. Yes, ma'am.

A. No. It makes sense that there was construction going on

because there was maybe framing-in for a room in the house

that was the clean room that no one was living in.

Q. I am talking about construction in the main house; not in

the garage where Briana lived, but in the main house.

A. She did not live in the garage at that time.

Q. How do you know that?

A. There was no bed or furniture. If it was a bedroom, it

was living out of crates, sleeping on the floor.

Q. Did you see the whole garage?

A. I believe I saw the whole garage eventually. I don't

know.

Q. Did you or didn't you?
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886

A. I saw a main area, and then eventually I was in the clean

room, and I believe that was the whole area.

Q. So this was a clean room associated with a person you say

was involved in this incident, this arson; is that correct,

that's what your testimony is?

A. Yes.

Q. And contrary to the manual written by Avalon and your

fiance, they decided it was okay to risk DNA material being on

some of the devices, that's your testimony?

A. I am sorry, what's the question?

Q. That you are saying that what was chosen as a clean room,

contrary to all the writings in the manual, was a place where

a person you claim was a participant -- let's not say she was

living there -- she was associated with that space, she spent

time in that space?

A. I think there are three factual claims in your question.

I refute them all.

Q. Well, you are an intelligent person. I ask you to help me

parse them out. I am not so good with that.

A. To start with, I don't think Stan had a very big role

writing the manual. To continue, I haven't read the manual

and I can't speak to what's in it.

The idea that we worked perfectly in alignment with

something Avalon wrote is wrong. We didn't. There were many

small things that could not be done in the ideal manner.
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887

And I think there was one other claim in there that I

didn't agree with.

Q. How about getting the car arranged at least 36 hours in

advance, do you know anything about that? Was that another

rule that was broken?

A. I have never heard the 36-hour-in-advance rule.

Q. Okay. Did you --

THE COURT: Why don't we stop you right there,

Mr. Bloom, so the jury can take the afternoon recess.

Leave your books on the chair, don't discuss the case. I

will have you back in here in about 15 minutes.

(Jury excused.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

I guess we are talking about the other witness now, the

government's witness, taking them out of turn. Is that what

we are talking about?

MR. BLOOM: I think there may be two.

THE COURT: Will you line those up.

We will be at recess.

THE CLERK: All rise. Court is in recess.

(Afternoon recess.)

(Jury not present.)

THE COURT: Are we ready to continue with

Ms. Phillabaum?

(Jury present.)
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THE COURT: All right. You may be seated.

We are going to continue the rest of the day with

Ms. Phillabaum.

Mr. Bloom.

MR. BLOOM: Okay.

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. On the very first day that you spoke to law enforcement,

February 21, did you tell them that Connor and Briana Waters

were both lookouts?

A. I don't think so.

Q. I ask you to look at a page of a document and read it to

yourself, in particular the entry, the first highlighted

entry, and see if that refreshes your recollection as to what

you told them on the very first day.

MR. BLOOM: May the record reflect that the clerk is

showing Exhibit A-191. The whole document is A-113.

THE COURT: Is what?

MR. BLOOM: A-113. It's one page from that document.

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. If you could look, there's a couple of highlighted

portions. If you could look, I think it's the very first one,

toward the top. Does that in any way refresh your

recollection as to whether or not you said, on the very first

day, that Connor and Briana were the lookouts?

A. This says that I said that.
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889

Q. Well, did you say that? Does that refresh your

recollection?

A. I am very particular about my notes, and I would never

want someone else's notes of what I said to be taken as my

word.

Q. Did you -- can I get that back? Thank you.

May I take it from you? Thank you.

So you are saying that somebody must have gotten it wrong.

A. I am not sure if I said that or if they got it down wrong.

I don't think I said that. I may have at one point used the

term "lookout." My main memory is that he was the driver.

I think at later interviews they pushed me hard on the

point of whether he was in the building; whether he was also a

lookout. I tried to be consistent with the fact that what I

remember is that he drove.

Q. After he drove, what did he do?

A. I am not sure.

Q. So you are not sure if he was a lookout, or what was it?

A. I am not sure if he stayed in the car or was a lookout.

Q. Or came with you?

A. I am pretty sure he was not at the building.

Q. Do you remember seeing him do anything in relation to the

building, from close up to the building?

A. No.

Q. So your position here is that there was one lookout, and
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890

you're saying that that was Briana Waters; is that correct?

A. Yeah. If Justin filled the role as someone who was a

lookout at some other point during the action, I don't have a

clear memory of that.

Q. Jennifer Kolar, on May 20 -- that would be Sunday -- when

did you first see her? Did you have an appointment to meet

her at a particular time?

A. I don't know.

Q. Well, there did come a time when you met her, you say, at

a restaurant?

A. We ended up at the Greenlake Pub together.

Q. Could you say it a little louder?

A. We ended up at that bar together that I was shown a photo

of.

Q. That was by happenstance or a prearrangement to meet her

at that bar or restaurant?

A. I am not sure.

Q. Before you went to the restaurant -- well, let me go back.

You drove up from Olympia, and you are claiming that it was

you, Briana, Justin, and Avalon, is that what you're saying?

A. No. I think that might be in that report, but I don't

think that I said that. I don't have a clear recollection of

how I got to Seattle. I have a memory at some point, perhaps

during these two weekends, of being in a car with Jen Kolar.

It's possible that I drove there with her.
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891

Q. So we are talking now about the evening, let's say

afternoon and evening, 12 hours before the incident. The

incident was about what time of day?

A. It was after dark; maybe 11:00, 12:00.

Q. And that was the arson. When I say the incident, the

arson; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Had you been in Olympia or had you been in Eugene before

you went to Seattle?

A. I am not sure. I think I was probably in Olympia. I

think I was probably dropped off somewhere in Olympia and

somehow given a ride to Seattle, but I couldn't testify to

that with any certainty.

Q. Well, did you drive -- let's go back.

What day of the week -- talking now about the weekend of

the incident, the weekend of the arson. What day of the week

did you go to Olympia?

A. I think that would have been Sunday.

Q. Did you travel from Eugene or from somewhere else?

A. From Eugene, I believe.

Q. How did you get from Eugene to Olympia on Sunday?

MR. FRIEDMAN: Objection, Your Honor. This has been

asked and answered.

MR. BLOOM: This has not all been asked.

THE COURT: It's been asked a whole bunch of times.
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892

Go ahead and answer.

A. I was in a car, Stan's car, I believe, with the same four

people I remember being in the car with both weekends;

Suzanne, Daniel, Stan, and myself.

Q. This was sometime on Sunday, which would have been May 20;

is that correct?

A. I believe so, yes.

Q. Do you remember where you went, where in Olympia you went?

Did you go to the place where the clean room was?

MR. FRIEDMAN: Objection, Your Honor. It's been

asked and answered.

THE COURT: Let her answer it.

Can you answer it?

A. It may have been that I went to the clean room that

weekend. I am not sure which weekend the clean room incident

occurred.

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. When was this device built?

A. I didn't build it. I don't know.

Q. When did you see it being built?

A. I saw it at one point in time. It's hard for me to attach

each of those points in time together into a continuous reel.

Q. Can you tell us if it was the weekend of the arson or the

weekend before the arson? Can you tell us that much?

A. When I was taken to the clean room?
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893

Q. When you say you were taken to the clean room, yes.

A. I think that was the weekend of the arson.

Q. Was Meyerhoff in the vicinity of that house?

A. If he was, I didn't know it. I may have had an image of

him at one point, but I can't connect it to other points in

time. If I could talk to other people involved, I am sure I

would remember things I don't know now, but I have never had

that opportunity. This is entirely my own memory.

Q. I point out that I am talking about the arson, the weekend

of the arson that you are testifying about, that you are

giving the jury testimony about who did what. I am not

talking about the weekend before, the year before. I am

talking about the arson. If you could focus your mind on that

issue.

A. Okay.

Q. You came up, you said you came up on Sunday, you came up

from Eugene to Olympia, but you are not sure just where you

went to; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And you were with Suzanne Savoie. Did they just drop you

off, the people with whom you rode, or did they stay in the

location where they brought you to?

A. I have no recollection of Suzanne Savoie or Daniel McGowan

interacting with the people involved with the University of

Washington arson other than myself and Stan.
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894

Q. Do you have any recollection that weekend, the weekend of

the arson, of Stan Meyerhoff interacting with anything to do

with what you are calling the clean room?

A. Only if that memory of him walking towards the building is

accurate.

Q. Did you tell the authorities on February 21 that it was

either Stan, that Stan may have been involved in building the

device or devices? Did you tell that to them?

A. Yes, I may have told him that, I am not sure. If I told

him that, it was for that reason. I also think I generally

sort of understood that Stan and Justin and Avalon were in

charge of the devices for both.

Q. My question was, on that Sunday, did you tell the

authorities, when you first spoke to them February 21, that

Stan and Connor were rushing to finish the devices?

A. That's accurate.

Just to point out. When I am speaking, I am really trying

very hard to be accurate, and the strength of my memory with

each particular question, and there's no way that the agents

could have written down my careful qualifications of each

statement that I have made.

Q. Well, having said that, my question is, did you tell the

agents and Mr. Friedman and whoever else was in the room on

February 21 that Stan and Connor were rushing to finish the

devices?
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895

A. That's consistent with what I remember. It would make

sense if I told the agents that.

Q. Okay. Now, was that because Stan had to take one or more

devices from Olympia to Clatskanie, Oregon?

A. I am sorry, sir, I don't have any more detailed knowledge

about it than that.

Q. I am sorry?

A. I don't have any more detailed knowledge than what I have

already said.

Q. Do you now have a distinct recollection that Stan and

Connor were working on the devices?

A. I don't have a distinct recollection in my mind of seeing

that. I remember having a distinct understanding that that's

what was happening.

Q. Did you know at the time -- that would be that Sunday, May

20 -- that there was going to be a joint action?

A. I believe I understood at that point that there was going

to be two simultaneous actions, yes.

Q. Did you tell Agent Halla and Mr. Friedman and the other

people present on the 21st of February that you did not know

it was going to be a joint action?

A. I did not know it was going to be a joint arson.

Q. No, my question was, did you tell them you did not know it

was going to be a joint action?

A. If they wrote that down, I would think they wrote it down
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896

incorrectly, because I did know that other people were going

to Seattle and Olympia to be involved in another crime. I

didn't know what that crime was.

Q. To Seattle and Olympia to be involved in another crime?

A. No, I guess it was to Olympia. I don't know. They were

in the car when I got out in Olympia. They were on their way

to a crime. That was my understanding.

Q. That was going to be in Olympia, as you understood it?

A. I had no knowledge of what or where it would be.

Q. Were you surprised when it turned out to be Clatskanie,

the Jefferson Poplar Farm in Clatskanie, Oregon?

A. Yes.

Q. In fact, a week later, after that, at the book club

meeting in Sisters, they talked about it; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. So Stan Meyerhoff, who you came to know, was involved in

that particular incident in Clatskanie, right? You know that,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you know that you saw him and Connor putting the

devices together in Olympia, right?

A. No, you misstated what I said. I never saw them putting

the devices together.

Q. You didn't tell the authorities that Stan and Connor were

rushing to finish the devices?
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897

A. We've been over this. Those are two different statements,

whether I saw them or whether I understood something to be

true. I am sorry to be really particular and qualified, but I

feel like it's necessary.

Q. Give me a moment, please, and I will show you a document

that may refresh your recollection.

I show you a page marked as Bates No. -- I am sorry. This

is a page from a document marked A-115. It's got a Bates

number 014093.

THE CLERK: A-192.

(Exhibit A-192 marked for identification.)

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. I would ask you to take a look at that document. I think

the clerk has pointed to a place that I would like you to

look. You can look at the whole thing if you want.

Does that refresh your recollection as to whether or not

you told the authorities on February 21 that Stan and Connor

were rushing to finish the devices?

A. I am sorry, could you repeat the question?

Q. Yes. Does it refresh your recollection, looking at that

document, which is some handwritten notes? Have you told the

authorities on February 21, the first day that you were

talking to them, that Stan and Connor were rushing to finish

the devices?

A. I believe that could be accurate, that I told them that.
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898

Just for larger reference, having been a journalist and a

debater, I am very particular about notes. I take very good

notes. I think note-taking is an appreciated skill that not

many people are really excellent at.

This other exhibit you showed me of the David Carr e-mail,

I notice in here his e-mail address is incorrect. I wouldn't

take this as the truth about what David Carr said in that

interview, even though this woman understood it to be and

wrote it down that way.

I would expect there to be differences in what David

recollected and what I believed about what David recollected

about the conversations we had.

Likewise with the FBI agents, I don't think that I can

speak and be perfectly clear at all times. So if they wrote

down something that was inconsistent with what I remember, it

would not be because I remember it inconsistently, but maybe

because they didn't understand me.

Q. So Agent Halla got it wrong?

A. No. In this case I don't think he got it wrong. I may

have said that.

Q. What would have been the basis of your knowledge that Stan

and Connor were rushing to finish the devices?

A. I am not sure what exactly I saw or heard that made me

think that. It was an impression that I had.

Q. Well, is it fair to say that Stan had a three- or four- or
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899

five-hour drive from Olympia to get to place those devices at

the Poplar Farm?

A. I don't know where Clatskanie, Oregon, is for sure.

Q. So can you tell us about what time of day you made that

observation about Stan and Connor rushing to finish the

devices?

A. During the interview or --

Q. No, today. Can you picture about what time of day it was

that you made that observation?

A. I have been consistent that I don't remember seeing

something that led me to believe that.

I may have seen something. I may have heard something, I

do not know.

Q. Whatever it is you saw or heard, you cannot now identify

what time that would have been?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Now, once the device or devices were finished, was

there any gasoline in the area of the clean room?

A. I don't know.

Q. Well, do you have any idea at what point gasoline was

either purchased or stolen or taken or siphoned from

somewhere?

A. No. I don't remember seeing gasoline in the clean room

ever.

Q. So do you have any idea when the gasoline, or the
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combustible material, was introduced into this device or

connected to the package or put in the car or anything? Do

you remember anything about gasoline? And I don't mean

gasoline to make the car run, I mean gasoline that was used as

the accelerant in these inflammatory devices.

A. I remember a conversation about how much gas to use. I

believe that Connor acquired the gas. I don't know.

Q. What makes you believe that?

A. I don't know.

Q. Just a guess?

A. I think that was my understanding at the time.

Q. From where did you get that understanding?

A. I am sorry, sir, I can't say.

Q. Do you know when he got the gas?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know from where he got the gas?

A. No.

Q. Did you drive in a vehicle from Olympia to Seattle?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there gas? I don't mean in the gas tank. Was there

gas accelerant in the vehicle when you drove up?

A. I don't know. I don't have a particular memory of the

vehicle or the drive.

Q. Well, did it smell like gasoline?

A. I don't have a particular memory at all, including the
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901

smell of gas.

Q. Do you remember how long it took to get from Olympia to

Seattle?

A. I don't know.

Q. Was it ten minutes or half an hour or an hour?

A. I don't know. I have done the drive a large number of

times. I think it's like an hour or something.

Q. Do you actually remember that day -- it was apparently a

Sunday, maybe the end of the afternoon or something like that.

Do you remember whether there was a lot of traffic? Sometimes

there's a lot of traffic here in the Tacoma area.

A. The only particular memory I have of being in a car from

Seattle to Olympia is the time I drove with Jen Kolar. It may

have been to Seattle that night; it may not have been. I

don't know.

And it was evening and there was traffic, and we may have

talked about this issue of does Briana hate me because she

thinks I slept with her boyfriend. That's why I would

remember.

Q. So this is a conversation with Kolar; is that correct?

A. Yes, if I'm remembering correctly.

Q. Well, it wouldn't have been this particular date, the

20th, because you were on your way to meet Kolar, according to

your testimony.

A. No, I am not sure. I think I testified I might have been
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902

with Jennifer Kolar when I drove to Seattle.

Q. I understood that you met Kolar at a restaurant.

A. It definitely was at a restaurant with Jennifer Kolar.

Q. You don't remember that that's where you met her that

night? I don't mean met her for the first time; I mean

that's where whoever came from Olympia met Kolar in Seattle.

A. When you asked me that previously, I told you they did

come to be at a restaurant with Jennifer Kolar.

Q. She could have been in the car with you from Olympia to

Seattle?

A. That's possible. I am not sure.

Q. Or maybe you picked her up at Sea-Tac or somewhere? I

don't mean the prison, the jail; I mean the airport.

A. I am pretty sure that didn't happen, but I don't know.

Q. Before you got to the restaurant, did you stop somewhere

else?

A. I don't have any memory for sure of that drive.

Q. Do you remember going to any dumpsters at any time that

night?

A. No.

I'm sorry, I remember walking past the dumpsters on our

way to the site.

Q. But before that, was there a time when you remembered

anybody dropping off the devices and gasoline at the

dumpsters?
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903

A. My recollection is that Justin placed the devices there

sometime earlier in the evening.

Q. When you say earlier in the evening, how did he do that?

Was he with you?

A. I wasn't with him when that happened.

Q. So you are in the car, you say, from Olympia to Seattle,

in the car, and you get to Seattle, right? Where do you go in

Seattle?

A. I ended up at that bar.

Q. Where did you first go in Seattle?

A. I don't know.

Q. That's where you ended up. Was there something before the

bar?

A. I don't know.

Q. Specifically, was there a stop at anybody's home to pick

up anybody?

A. It's possible. But I want to add one little bit that I

remember, is that there was this role, this thing of dropping

off a car under an overpass, I think. I am not sure where

that fits in my complete recollection of things.

Q. Was that that night?

A. I think so, yes.

Q. Or was it in the afternoon? When was it?

A. Well, I don't remember it that night. I remember getting

in the car really the next morning. I am not sure. I am
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904

sorry.

Q. Did it have to do with this particular weekend?

A. I think it did.

Q. What kind of car?

A. I don't know.

Q. Whose car?

A. I don't know. I just remember an overpass and the car

being dropped off. Maybe it had to do with what time we drove

back the next morning. I am not sure.

Q. Was it Jennifer Kolar's car?

A. Possibly; I don't know.

Q. So do you remember -- you are saying you don't remember

the very first stop that you made in Seattle?

A. The first place I remember being in Seattle is at that

bar.

Q. At that bar, and at that bar there were five of you?

A. Yes.

Q. What time did you get to that bar?

A. I don't know. Early evening.

Q. You say early evening. What do you mean, 6:30, 7:00?

A. I don't know what time I got to the bar.

Q. Just think.

A. I am sorry, sir, I can't say with any specificity. It was

afternoon.

Q. What makes you think it was afternoon?
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A. Well, the bar was open and we ate dinnier-ish type food.

Q. That could have been anywhere from 4:30 to 9:00, in that

range?

A. That's correct.

Q. This is a meeting, according to you, of the five people

who were going out to commit an arson, to burn down a building

at the University of Washington. Am I correct about that?

A. Yeah. It was a meet-up, more than a meeting, to discuss

things that were -- from the site we were going first to burn

the building.

Q. My question is, are you saying that you don't remember

whether or not -- or you don't remember dropping off the

devices at a dumpster area yourself -- you, yourself -- with

anyone prior to the restaurant?

A. That's correct, I don't think I was part of that.

Q. So did Justin jump out of the car and -- what happened? I

don't quite get it. There were five of you in the car, and

you're saying Justin dropped off the devices at the dumpster.

How did he do that if you were all together?

A. The FBI or the U.S. Attorney's Office may have believed

that there were five of us in the car. I have no clear

recollection of getting to Seattle and being in a particular

car with any number of people.

Q. You just remember leaving Olympia and arriving; the next

you know, it was the restaurant?
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906

A. Sir, I don't remember leaving Olympia. I am very sorry.

The first time I ever gave an interview was a number of years

later. The things I can remember, I don't remember in

continuous sequence.

I have done my best to remember what I can. If I were to

have new memories, it would probably involve having to talk

with other people who were there.

Q. In other words, somebody could refresh your recollection,

you are saying, a conversation with someone might refresh your

recollection.

I am not sure, is that what you are saying?

A. If I could talk with someone, that would probably refresh

my recollection.

Q. Who would be that someone?

A. Well, Briana, Jen or Justin could add details to what

happened.

Q. Briana, who said she wasn't there at all, you think she

could refresh your recollection?

A. Sir, I believe that Briana was there. I am certain Briana

was there.

Q. Because that's what you said on February 21st, and if you

don't say that, you go to prison for the rest of your life?

A. I think if I genuinely had misunderstood or misremembered,

I wouldn't go to prison for life. I haven't misunderstood or

misremembered. I am very clear that Briana Waters was at the
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arson at the University of Washington Horticulture Center,

without a doubt.

Q. You can't even remember what time you left Olympia?

A. That's true, I do not have a continuous memory of the

sequence of events.

Q. Well, it's important, is it not, for your purposes to say

your own self -- you have to say -- you have to say -- that

Briana Waters was at that arson?

You have to say it; otherwise, it's 35 years in prison for

you, and you won't get to see your parents out on the street

until then?

A. I think if I had genuinely had a bad memory, that

Mr. Bartlett and Mr. Friedman have no interest in convicting

someone who was not there, and if I said to them that was not

the right person, I don't think that they would punish me for

that. But I don't know. I mean, they very well could punish

me for that, but I have no doubt about my memory on the point

of whether or not Briana was there.

Q. You say you don't think they have an interest in

convicting somebody who is innocent, is that what you are

saying?

A. That's right. I don't believe that they want to convict

an innocent person.

Q. Have you been reading our pleadings online?

A. I have read your pleadings.
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908

Q. Without getting into the specifics, you know that we have

made certain claims, just yes or no?

A. Yes. I think there's this idea that this is a political

prosecution. I have never gotten the sense at all, which has

actually made it quite a bit easier for me to deal with the

United States Attorney's Office. They never questioned me

about people who were not involved in noncriminal activities

and other political activities.

Q. Have you read our pleadings with regard to factual issues

that have nothing to do with political considerations? Just

yes or no?

A. I have read your pleadings.

Q. And you know that we've made certain claims about certain

things that we believe took place; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you know that those things do not have to do with any

political anything, they have to do with particular facts that

we allege, period? Just yes or no, please.

A. I am sorry, I'm not sure of the question. You allege

things in your brief, of course.

Q. Yes. And addressing the fact that -- addressing the fact

that you say they wouldn't want to convict somebody who's

innocent, you know that our pleadings address certain factual

issues that relate to that kind of claim?

I am being very careful with my words here because I
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909

really don't want you to -- there's been a ruling by the Court

that we can't go into certain things. So I am trying to keep

it narrow in response to your statement that they wouldn't

convince a person who's innocent.

A. I don't think I have read in your pleadings that the

prosecutors want to convict an innocent person.

Q. Have you read in our pleadings claims that we make about

what certain FBI agents have done? Just yes or no.

A. I have read your pleadings.

Q. Have you read them with regard to claims that we make with

regard to what certain FBI agents have done?

A. If there's been a ruling about introducing those, I would

rather not speak about them.

Q. Well, if there's an objection and the Judge says you

can't, then you can't, but for now --

THE COURT: Why don't we move on to another line of

questioning.

BY MR. BLOOM: I am sorry?

THE COURT: Another line of questioning.

MR. BLOOM: If that's the answer, that's correct. I

understand and I respect that.

BY MR. BLOOM:

Q. Now, did there come a time when you were right there at

the Center for Urban Horticulture and Avalon was in Toby

Bradshaw's office, were you just a few feet away from him?
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910

A. Yes.

Q. And the window had been broken?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it a large window? Small window? How did that work?

What do you remember about that?

A. It was a big window.

Q. And did Avalon hand out any documents to you?

A. He did.

Q. What kinds of documents were they?

A. Excuse me, he handed me materials from Professor

Bradshaw's office.

Q. Materials, documents of some kind; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Am I correct that you testified on direct that there were

no documents?

A. I don't know.

Q. About renting a car, did you tell the authorities that

Briana Waters had an older woman, an aunt, rent a car?

A. Yes.

Q. You testified the other day that your involvement in the

WTO was in 1999, the Seattle events that took place in the WTO

conference?

A. Yes, it was in 1999.

Q. You testified that, in fact, what you were involved in was

essentially making sleeping arrangements for people; is that
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911

correct?

A. No, I said quite a bit more than that.

Q. I am sorry?

A. I said quite a bit more than that.

Q. What else were you involved in?

A. I was involved in sleeping arrangements, outreach --

Q. I am sorry?

A. Sleeping arrangements, outreach, research on the companies

they were sponsoring, ministerial. There was a lot.

Q. Were you involved in throwing bricks?

A. I never broke any windows. I did spray paint.

Q. Do you know who Tim Lewis is?

A. I know who Tim Lewis is.

Q. He's does films; is that correct?

A. Yes, he does.

Q. Do you remember Tim Lewis -- you were asking Tim Lewis:

Do me a favor, Tim. Keep an eye on my bricks.

Did you tell him that?

A. I don't remember -- no, I have no idea what you are

talking about.

Q. You had collected some bricks that were going to be thrown

through windows; is that not correct?

A. No, sir, I am not sure what you are talking about.

Q. You don't remember running through the streets with 200

people in black clothing?
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912

A. I do remember being in downtown Seattle with those people,

yes.

Q. Do you remember the exhilaration that you felt having 200

people, everybody watching everybody's back and the police

couldn't do anything about it?

A. It sounds to me like you are quoting from a video that Tim

Lewis made.

Q. Am I quoting who?

A. You would be quoting me. Tim Lewis put those comments in

there. I was only in his video very reluctantly. I was

careful, obviously, to not implicate myself in the criminal

activity. I at one point spoke very specifically about that

sort of thing, running with 200 people. I was referring to

something that happened in England --

Q. That what?

A. -- happened in England, this protest that I went to that

was called off and nothing ever came of it, and I clarified

that on the unedited version of the video that he made, but he

did not put that clarification in the final version of his

video, and it's led to a falling out between him and I.

Q. So that description that you were giving had nothing to do

with what you were doing in Seattle; it had to do with what

other people did in another country?

A. That's accurate, but it's fair to say that I had the same

experience in Seattle. I was just very careful not to
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913

implicate myself on video.

Q. I see. So that was exhilarating for you, as it was when

you expressed the week after this arson, the same kind of

exhilaration you expressed at the book club meeting in

Sisters, Oregon?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I do have a couple other questions.

Was there an event that you participated in where --

excuse me one second -- did you participate in some events or

protests in either an Oakridge or Detroit station?

A. The ranger station?

Q. The ranger station, yes.

A. Yes.

Q. Is it correct that you participated in spreading manure

around a site where you had put glue into some locks?

A. Other people glued the locks, and I was involved in

dumping compost at the ranger station office.

Q. And that would be -- you knew very well that the people

who would be cleaning that up would be working people?

A. The thoughtless radical that I was, I never gave that

Q. I am sorry?

A. I never gave a thought to who would clean it up.

Q. It's about you. The world is about you, right?

A. The feeling that your moral choices are more important

than the scientific process and administrative legal remedies
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914

is extremely hubristic.

Q. I am sorry. Could you say that another way? I didn't

graduate cum laude.

Could you say that in some way that I can understand?

A. Sure. I am sorry if I wasn't clear.

When you are taking action like that where you have

decided that your judgment is more important than the judgment

of the law and the judgment of administrative regulatory

systems, that is a very arrant thing to do.

Q. What I am doing?

A. No. I am sorry, what I did.

Q. I see. So that was -- basically you did not consider the

consequences to the people who had to clean up after you?

A. That's correct, sir.

Q. One last thing. The events, the interaction between

yourself and other people in the environmental, people at all

levels -- let me go back a second.

Avalon was involved in all kinds of levels of

environmental work; is that correct?

A. Can I just say -- I just want to point out about that

question. In Oakridge, that was 1996 and I think you can kind

of see the progression of my increasingly-radical activities.

First, it was protests at the federal building, dumping

compost, digging blockades on a Forest Service road, to

eventually burning a building. It was a very long
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915

progression. I was a radical. I admit it.

Q. And now you are a Government informant?

A. I am many things, and that would probably be one of the

last things on my list.

Q. Avalon was a person who had an entire range of

environmental activities, from arsons to organizing and

facilitating meetings, above-board, legal meetings; is that

correct?

A. I can't really speak to Avalon's involvement very much

because he was very secretive. I think I could say that I saw

a development in his activism, too, from legal to focused

obsessively on the clandestine, towards the period of the

University of Washington arson. But I believe he may have

been involved in clandestine activities at the same time that

he was also doing above-ground work earlier when I knew him

and I just didn't know that.

Q. There was a range of people here in the Northwest who were

involved in a range of activities from totally legal to very

illegal; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And there was an interchange amongst the people, people in

Olympia, people in Eugene, people in Seattle, and other places

as well; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Including Tacoma?
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916

A. I don't remember meeting any activists from Tacoma ever.

Q. Do you remember a big discussion at the ELAW conferences

about the documentary "Watch" that Briana produced and

directed and wrote, where she documented a coalition of people

working together, regular people, totally law-abiding people

and tree huggers.

Do you remember a lot of discussion and a lot of buzz, as

it is said, about that kind of activity?

A. No, I am sorry, I don't remember the documentary "Watch"

except for the way it was involved in the weekend of the

arson.

Q. It was involved in the weekend of arson?

A. My understanding is that Briana had made this documentary,

and we were going to do an arson.

Q. I am sorry. One had to do with the other? It was going

to be shown --

A. No, there's no connection. I am sorry if I implied that.

I meant, the only way that that really sticks out in my

memory, that video "Watch", is because it was associated in my

mind with that weekend when I came to meet Briana.

Q. Briana Waters, at the same ELAW conference where you

talked about not reaching out to white people, Kim Marks was

in that same panel, and she talked about the project at

"Watch" and the film that was made.

She was sitting in the same dais as you are, and she was
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917

talking about working with people, and you are talking about

nonviolence has no place, we have to re-think nonviolence.

That shows the kind of range that happened at, for example,

the ELAW conference, right?

A. If -- I think you mischaracterized my remarks. I think I

testified that I didn't say we should avoid working with

working class people.

Q. White people, working class white people is what you said.

A. No, I told you earlier when you asked me that that I did

not say that. But again, being the arrogant person that I

was, I don't remember what other people said on that panel.

Q. One more thing -- and then one more request of the

Court -- you came to know -- you've now come to know that

Briana was involved at Evergreen in an organization known as

Evergreen Animal Rights Network.

What they were involved in is bringing speakers to campus

and having bake sales. Have you come to know that?

A. You just told me. That's the only way I know that.

MR. BLOOM: One other matter, Judge. Given the

witness's answers with regard to what she had to say at the

ELAW conference, we do have a tape that we would like to play.

It would be logistically difficult to play it now, but we

could. I think they --

THE COURT: Without going into it, let's wait. Share

it with everybody. I will look at it and decide what to do
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918

about it.

MR. BLOOM: That will be fine. I have no further

questions. If I could get back that document.

MR. FRIEDMAN: I have some very brief redirect.

Your Honor, may the witness be handed Exhibit 612?

I am not going to offer this into evidence.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. FRIEDMAN:

Q. If you could just look at it, basically keep it on the

table in front of you, that would be great.

Can you just describe in general terms what Exhibit 612

is?

A. It's some radical literature, I think.

Q. Is it one brochure or pamphlet?

A. It says it's the "Newsletter of the North American Earth

Liberation Prisoner" --

THE COURT: Elevate your voice just a little bit.

THE WITNESS: Speak up?

THE COURT: Yes.

A. It says it's the "Newsletter of the North American Earth

Liberation Prisoner Support Network," and there appears to be

two copies in here.

BY MR. FRIEDMAN:

Q. That's just because it's an exhibit, it's really one

document, one item?
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919

A. It looks to be two copies of one item.

Q. Is there a date on that item?

A. Spring 2002.

Q. Then would you look at the back of it for a moment.

Do you see the handwriting there?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you just tell us in general terms what you see?

A. It's contact information, some websites and some phone

numbers.

Q. Is any of that -- can you tell us for whom that contact

information is? Are you able to tell us that?

A. It has a number for Briana, a number and an e-mail, and a

phone number for me, and something that's indicated as a

voicemail for India.

MR. BLOOM: Excuse me, I am going to object to this

unless they can explain how somebody's handwriting on a

pamphlet got to be there and what significance it has.

MR. FRIEDMAN: I just want to ask her if it's her

handwriting and then we will be done.

THE COURT: All right.

BY MR. FRIEDMAN:

Q. Is any of the handwriting for that contact information --

is any of that your handwriting?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Were you together -- you are one of the people listed
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there; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you together with any of those other people in the

Spring of 2002 when that pamphlet was written -- is dated?

A. No, I don't think so.

MR. FRIEDMAN: I have no further questions.

The Government calls Megan Roop.

THE COURT: Let me have you come forward and be

sworn.

Step forward and raise your right hand, please.

MEGAN ROOP, called as a witness, duly sworn.

THE COURT: Just come around and take the witness

chair.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. FRIEDMAN:

Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Roop. Can you tell us your whole name

and spell your last name for the record.

A. Megan Marie Roop, and my last name is spelled R-O-O-P.

Q. Where do you work?

A. Avis Budget.

Q. Are you in a particular unit or group?

A. Yes, the Special Investigations Group, which is located

inside the insurance department.

Q. Where in the country? Where are you located?

A. Orlando, Florida.
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Q. What does the Special Investigations Unit do?

A. We typically handle insurance fraud claims coming out of

rental car accidents.

Q. What's your job in the Special Investigations Unit?

A. I am the administrative assistant, assisting the special

investigator.

Q. What does that mean that you do?

A. I generally perform all the research on all our claims

that are referred to our department and handle general

clerical duties.

Q. Do you know Special Agent Ted Halla of the FBI?

A. Yes, from speaking on the phone with him.

Q. In November of 2006, did he give you a request for certain

information?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. In general terms, what was he looking for?

A. He was looking for rental agreements pertaining to a list

of names.

Q. Do you recall roughly how many names?

A. I would say about 20.

Q. Was there a particular timeframe for which he was looking?

A. May 21, 2001.

Q. Now, was this the first request Agent Halla had made to

you?

A. No.
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Q. Roughly, when is the first time he requested information

from Avis?

A. Around March 21, 2006.

Q. Roughly eight months before?

A. Yes.

Q. Over the course of that eight months, have you had

continuous contact with Agent Halla?

A. Yes.

Q. In general terms, what was nature of the contact? What

was going on?

A. Searching for any cars that may have been returned with

damage or rentals coming out of a specific location during

specific times. It was very generalized information as to

what I was looking for.

Q. When you had this request, the one that came in November

2006, did you perform a search?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did you find some records that you provided to Agent

Halla?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Would you take a look at a document that's marked 771.

Tell us if you recognize that.

A. Yes, it's a fax from me.

Q. If we could use the document camera for a moment.

So what is Exhibit 771?
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A. This is a fax from me to Agent Halla.

Q. Is it information about a rental that you found?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Is that part of Avis Budget's records?

A. Yes.

Q. Are those records the company keeps in its normal course

of business?

A. Yes.

MR. FRIEDMAN: The Government offers 771.

MR. FOX: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted.

(Exhibit No. 771 admitted.)

BY MR. FRIEDMAN:

Q. I am going to put a document on the overhead projector,

and if you can answer questions based on this.

Can you tell us in general terms, what it is that we are

looking at?

A. This is a printout from the system I use in order to

identify old rentals.

Q. It says rental detail screen. What is this?

A. It's just the details of the rental agreement, like the

name, the address associated with the name, the credit card

number used, the mileage in and out of the car, the station

the car was rented out of, telephone, zip code, the amount

charged for the rental, any insurances taken out like
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insurance coverages taken out, and then the total we charged

for it.

Q. So this document -- entire document relates to one car

rental?

A. Yes.

Q. Would you walk me through it. Up top is something --

A. That's the name of our renter.

Q. In this case, what's the name of the renter?

A. Kara Denise Larson.

Q. Below that, do you see an address where this person lived?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you read that for the record?

A. 2411 Capitol Way Southeast, Olympia, Washington 98501.

Q. Then there's something that says "drive license". What is

that?

A. That's the driver's license of the individual who rented

the car.

Q. When you say that's the driver's license, what do you mean

by that?

A. The driver's license issued by the Department of Motor

Vehicles in the state they reside in.

Q. So that's the number that identifies the driver's license?

A. Yes.

Q. Moving down to "credit card".

A. Do you want me to read the credit card number?
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Q. No, but that's the credit card number to which the rental

was charged?

A. Yes. The "DS" in front of it generally means a Discover

card was used, and the number behind it is the number taken

off the credit card for renting at the time of rental.

Q. Then moving further down we have an open date, open DT.

A. That's the open date of the rental, the day they actually

walked in and took possession of the car.

Q. In this case, what is that date?

A. May 19, 2001.

Q. Can you tell the time the car went out?

A. Yes, 12:31 p.m.

Q. On that date?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell the location from which it was rented?

A. Yes, that's our Olympia, Washington office, OLMDT.

Q. So that's the open station?

A. Yes.

Q. And where and when was the car returned?

A. The car was returned to the same location on May 22nd,

2001 at 6:33 a.m.

Q. What does that 6:33 a.m. mean? How much does it tell you

and what does it not tell you?

A. The only information that's not listed on this particular

RA screen would be the unit number, the VIN number of the car
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that they rented.

Q. Do you know this location yourself?

A. I have never been to it.

Q. So if it had an after hours night drop, does this tell you

the time the car is logged in or dropped there?

A. That's the time the car is logged in.

Q. So it's actually processed back in by the people?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell us, what was the total charge of the rental?

A. $187.87.

Q. I am going to page through for a moment. The second page

is basically the same thing?

A. Yes.

Q. When we get to the third page, can you tell us what this

is?

A. This is a different printout from the system showing a

little bit more detail on the rental agreement, unfortunately

omitting other details off of the rental agreement.

Q. What's this number on the left?

A. The one that's circled?

Q. Yes.

A. That's the rental agreement number.

Q. Is that the same rental agreement -- the same one we just

looked --

A. Yes.
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Q. Still on page 3, do you see the name of the renter here

again?

A. Yes, Kara Denise Larson.

Q. Switching to the eighth and last page of this exhibit,

there is something that says VIN on here.

Can you tell us what that is?

A. A VIN is a vehicle identification number.

Q. Generally, in more general terms, what's a vehicle

identification number?

A. It's the number assigned to a vehicle in the United States

of America, identifying the maker of the car, the model of the

car, the color of the car, the plant the car was made out of,

the engine size of the car.

Q. Does every vehicle have a different VIN?

A. Yes.

Q. So this number here would uniquely identify --

A. It's unique to the vehicle.

Q. Could you read that, for the record.

A. 4T1BG22K21U816051.

Q. Turning back to the first page, we had talked already

about the time the car was taken out and returned. There's

another line odometer out, QTY, what does that mean?

A. That's the mileage that was on the car when it left the

lot.

Q. In this case, what was that mileage?
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A. 5,673.

Q. Right under there, we have an odometer reading QTY?

A. That was the mileage on the odometer when it was returned

to the location.

Q. What was that mileage in this case?

A. 5,910.

Q. I hate to make you do subtraction on the stand. Can you

tell, roughly how many miles did this car drive?

A. About 227 miles.

Q. 237?

A. Yes, I think.

MR. FRIEDMAN: Thank you very much, Ms. Roop.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. FOX:

Q. I am Neil Fox, one of the attorneys for Briana Waters.

A. Hi.

Q. Very quickly, let me just put this back up on the screen.

Just very quickly, on this document that you just testified

about, there's a notation for additional driver; is that

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. The "N" underneath additional driver means what?

A. I am not exactly sure, but I would assume it would stand

for "no additional driver".

Q. At least no one that -- no one that signed up that they
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were going to drive?

A. Exactly.

Q. Then there's a section that says "rental remarks text" at

the very bottom?

A. Generally, we would use that column if the vehicle was

returned with damage. It looks like there was nothing unusual

about the car.

Q. So it says no remarks?

A. Yes.

Q. And for you, in the course of your business, that would

mean no damage?

A. No damage or nothing unusual.

Q. Then in terms of the odometer, there's no special

mechanism that Budget has to keep track of mileage of rental

cars, it really depends on the person checking in to record

the mileage accurately in both instances?

A. Yes.

Q. So it depends on the first person writing down the proper

mileage, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then the second person writing down the mileage,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. And sometimes, is it not correct that sometimes people

make mistakes?
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A. I think so.

MR. FOX: Thank you very much. I have no further

questions.

MR. FRIEDMAN: We have no further questions.

THE COURT: You may step down.

All right, I think we are going to recess the matter for

today and have you go home.

Well, the good thing about it, it's a three-day weekend.

Monday is a federal holiday, so we won't have you back here

until Tuesday.

As always, you are not to discuss the case. You are not

to research anything, watch TV about it, get on the Internet,

doing any of these things. Stay away from all those kind of

things. Everything you need to decide this case will be here

in this courtroom, and that's what I want to hold you to.

Have a good three-day weekend. I will see you right there

9:00 on Tuesday.

(Jury not present.)

THE COURT: All right, you may be seated.

I guess the only thing, there's some discussion about a

tape. I will hear what you have to say about that. Is it

something I should see? I don't know how I can tell what's in

it without seeing it.

MR. FOX: Your Honor, the DVD, I believe the disks

are inside the room.
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THE COURT: How long is this?

MR. FOX: Well, Ms. Phillabaum's segment is probably

20 minutes -- 20, 30 minutes. The prior section dealing with

the Watch Mountain campaign is probably about the equivalent

amount.

THE COURT: What am I supposed to do with it?

MR. FOX: Maybe Mr. Bloom and I can discuss this.

MR. BLOOM: My recollection is that the part we want

to show is the Phillabaum part -- we could show the other as

well -- is less than 30 minutes; it's more like 15 to 18

minutes.

THE COURT: It sounds like that will be your part of

the evidence; is that correct?

MR. BLOOM: Yes.

THE COURT: And you want me to look at that and see

if there's some editing that needs to be done in terms of what

the jury will hear?

MR. BLOOM: Yes, we'd like to offer it. And we'd

also like to offer -- there is another segment, it's a panel

of four people; two of whom are not relevant to this

discussion and two of whom are. One is Ms. Phillabaum herself

giving a presentation, and she denies saying certain things

that are very clearly on the DVD that you will see.

The other segment is a woman named Kim Marks who gave a

presentation about the Watch Mountain project and was referred
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to in the cross-examination.

THE COURT: Now, one you want to show that something

that she said on the tape, that she said she didn't say here,

that's one item you want me to look for?

MR. BLOOM: Right.

THE COURT: Then the Watch Mountain, you want to

present that in terms of what you want to present in your

case-in-chief; is that right?

MR. BLOOM: I guess that's right. That's a good way

to analyze it.

THE COURT: What else am I to look for? That's it?

MR. BLOOM: I think that's it, yes.

MR. FRIEDMAN: Your Honor, they are trying to impeach

Ms. Phillabaum on a collateral matter with extrinsic evidence.

There's nothing in there that's admissible to impeach here.

If they want to offer the Watch Mountain portion in their

case, that is a decision to be made at that time, but nothing

to do with Ms. Phillabaum.

The portion to do with Ms. Phillabaum, it doesn't matter

what it is she admits. It doesn't matter if it's directly

contradictory. It's a collateral matter, and it's not

admissible under Rule 609 of the Rules of Evidence, otherwise

we'd basically have a trial that spirals out of control on

everything..

THE COURT: I understand what you are saying.
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MR. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I am trying to, again, get the exhibit

number.

MR. FOX: Your Honor, it hasn't been marked. I would

suggest, to save Your Honor having to watch this over the

weekend, what I would suggest is 8:30 on Tuesday we can deal

with this.

MR. BARTLETT: Do we have a copy?

MR. FOX: No.

MR. BARTLETT: Could you get a copy so we can look at

it over the weekend?

THE COURT: I think they should have it, and I should

have a copy. I may find I have nothing to do on the weekend

and I want to look at something.

MR. FOX: May I take two minutes before recess and

talk to Mr. Bloom?

THE COURT: Let's share this information, then I

think we can get to the bottom of it as to what should or

should not be done. Okay.

If you have some copies.

MR. FOX: Sure. May I speak to Mr. Bloom?

THE COURT: Let's take a recess. Right now I think

we are through with the night. 8:30 Tuesday morning, unless I

talk to you about something else.

THE CLERK: All rise, Court is in recess.
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(Recess taken.)

THE CLERK: All rise, Court is again in session after

a recess.

THE COURT: All right. It is my understanding, now,

we are talking about the DVD or whatever it is.

MR. FOX: What we would like to do is put this issue

off. We can move on, on Tuesday, with other things. If we

decided we want to bring this DVD into evidence or to play it

for Ms. Phillabaum and to have her confronted with what we

believe to be prior inconsistent statements, we will give

sufficient notice to the prosecutors that that is what we are

going to do; and we can deal with that piece of it at a later

time. But first thing Tuesday morning I think --

THE COURT: I will add one thing to that: Do it in a

timely fashion.

MR. FOX: Yes.

THE COURT: As to what you are specifically looking

for, identify that and identify question and answer here, so I

can look at it from that standpoint and see just what it is.

Okay.

MR. BARTLETT: And the United States would be given

an opportunity to respond?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. FOX: Absolutely.

MR. BARTLETT: And at some point we will actually be
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given a copy of the video.

THE COURT: All of those should be done before we get

into it. I don't want to delay it with a lot of time where I

have got to take time out to go through all these things and

sift through them. You know how to do that. Let's make sure

it's done and done in a clean fashion.

What else?

MR. BARTLETT: That is it.

MR. FOX: Your Honor, I have asked the clerk once to

relay something to you. There have been times when I have

encountered jurors at the security. I have, of course, looked

down and not even at their eyes.

In other cases, I have had sometimes the judge has told

the jurors, that if the attorneys, in particular, if you come

across them and they don't smile at you, it's not because they

are stuck up and not friendly. I don't know that these jurors

have been told that specifically. I don't want the jurors to

think that I'm --

THE COURT: I don't know how to be specific. I

thought I mentioned something along that line. I am not

trying to make them antisocial. Didn't I say all that?

MR. FOX: Yes, but if you could say in particular the

attorneys cannot really look in their direction.

THE CLERK: I have talked to the jurors about it.

THE COURT: I think they have been told that. I told
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936

them not to take anything out on you because you represent

your client. I thought I said all that.

MR. FOX: Thank you very much.

THE COURT: We are through, are we? I don't know of

anything else to bring up. I am going to try to get out of

here and have a three-day weekend and take some work home to

read over the weekend and maybe watch a ball game.

We will be at recess. See you back here on Tuesday.

(The Court recessed to Tuesday, February 19, 2008, at

the hour of 9:00 a.m.)

* * * * *

C E R T I F I C A T E

I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from

the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.

/S/ Teri Hendrix __________ May 2, 2008

Teri Hendrix, Court Reporter Date