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92–905 PDF 2015

S. Hrg. 113–707 

NOMINATIONS OF HON. SARAH SALDAN ̃A, 

RUSSELL C. DEYO, AND HON. MICKEY D. BARNETT 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

NOMINATIONS OF HON. SARAH SALDAN ̃ A, TO BE ASSISTANT 

SECRETARY FOR IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT, 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, RUSSELL C. DEYO, 

TO BE UNDER SECRETARY FOR MANAGEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF 

HOMELAND SECURITY, AND HON. MICKEY D. BARNETT, TO BE A 

GOVERNOR, U.S. POSTAL SERVICE 

SEPTEMBER 17, 2014 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov/ 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs 

( 
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware Chairman 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas 

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana 

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, Missouri 

JON TESTER, Montana 

MARK BEGICH, Alaska 

TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin 

HEIDI HEITKAMP, North Dakota 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

JOHN MCCAIN, Arizona 

RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin 

ROB PORTMAN, Ohio 

RAND PAUL, Kentucky 

MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming 

KELLY AYOTTE, New Hampshire 

GABRIELLE A. BATKIN, Staff Director 

JOHN P. KILVINGTON, Deputy Staff Director 

STEPHEN R. VIN ̃ A, Chief Counsel for Homeland Security 

DEIRDRE G. ARMSTRONG, Professional Staff Member 

KEITH B. ASHDOWN, Minority Staff Director 

CHRISTOPHER J. BARKLEY, Minority Deputy Staff Director 

ANDREW C. DOCKHAM, Minority Chief Counsel 

DANIEL P. LIPS, Minority Director of Homeland Security 

SARAH BETH GROSHART, Minority Counsel 

SCOTT M. BEHEN, Minority U.S. Government Accountability Office Detailee 

JOSEPH D. MOELLER, Minority U.S. Postal Service Office of the Inspector General Detailee 

LAURA W. KILBRIDE, Chief Clerk 

LAUREN M. CORCORAN, Hearing Clerk 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Opening statements: Page 

Senator Carper ................................................................................................. 1 

Senator Coburn ................................................................................................. 9 

Prepared statements: 

Senator Carper ................................................................................................. 35 

Senator Coburn ................................................................................................. 37 

WITNESSES 

WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 2014 

Hon. John Cornyn, A U.S. Senator from the State of Texas ............................... 1 

Hon. Michael Chertoff, Executive Chairman and Co-Founder, Chertoff Group, 

and Former Secretary, U.S. Department of Homeland Security ..................... 5 

Hon. Sarah R. Saldan ̃ a to be Assistant Secretary for Immigration and Customs Enforcement, U.S. Department of Homeland Security 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 11 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 41 

Biographical and financial information .......................................................... 43 

Letter from the Office of Government Ethics ................................................. 77 

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 80 

Responses to post-hearing questions .............................................................. 124 

Letters of support ............................................................................................. 126 

Russell C. Deyo to be Under Secretary for Management, U.S. Department 

of Homeland Security 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 13 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 130 

Biographical and financial information .......................................................... 132 

Letter from the Office of Government Ethics ................................................. 153 

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 156 

Responses to post-hearing questions .............................................................. 172 

Letters of support ............................................................................................. 184 

Hon. Mickey D. Barnett to be a Governor, U.S. Postal Service 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 15 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 190 

Biographical and financial information .......................................................... 195 

Letter from the Office of Government Ethics ................................................. 215 

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 219 

Responses to post-hearing questions .............................................................. 231 

(1) 

NOMINATIONS OF HON. SARAH R. SALDANA, 

RUSSELL C. DEYO AND HON. MICKEY D. 

BARNETT 

WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 2014 

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m., in room 

SD–342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Thomas R. Carper, 

presiding. 

Present: Senators Carper, Coburn, and Ayotte. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN CARPER 

Chairman CARPER. Well, good morning, one and all. Bienvenido. 

We are glad you are here and look forward to getting to know our 

nominees, better. 

We are honored that we have been joined by one of my favorite 

people in the Senate, Senator John Cornyn from Texas. We are delighted that you are here and able to introduce your constituent. 

We are happy to see our former Secretary here. Judge, great to 

see you, Michael, my neighbor across the Delaware River. 

And, Mickey, very nice to see you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for 

your service. 

I am just going to lead off and ask Senator Cornyn if he would 

make whatever remarks he feels appropriate. Again, we are delighted that you could come. Thank you. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JOHN CORNYN, A 

UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF TEXAS 

Senator CORNYN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am proud to be 

here this morning to introduce one of my constituents, Sarah 

Saldan ̃a—— 

Chairman CARPER. How many do you have, any idea? 

Senator CORNYN. Twenty-six million, but she is definitely up at 

the top of that list of the most important—— 

Chairman CARPER. I have 881,412. [Laughter.] 

Senator CORNYN. As you know, Ms. Saldan ̃ a has been nominated 

to serve as the Department of Homeland Security’s (DHS) Assistant Secretary for Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), a 

position of profound importance to our country, and particularly to 

my State, our State of Texas. 

ICE is one of the Nation’s largest law enforcement agencies, with 

more than 19,000 employees and responsibilities including the inte-
2 

rior enforcement of our immigration laws, national security, drug 

interdiction, and fighting child exploitation. 

As our Nation experiences a surge of illegal immigration and accompanying criminal activity by those who make a living off of exploiting others, it is more important than ever that the next person 

who leads this agency will do so with strength and with integrity. 

Ms. Saldan ̃ a is a native of Corpus Christi, Texas. She learned 

from a young age the importance of hard work and education. She 

was one of seven children born to working class parents. She 

watched her mother study to become a nurse and work nights to 

provide for the family. In turn, she studied hard in school and told 

herself, what you think you can do, you can do. And, certainly, Ms. 

Saldan ̃ a has accomplished great things. 

In 2011, Ms. Saldan ̃a became the first Latina United States Attorney in Texas history, and only the second woman to hold that 

position in the 135-year history of Texas’s Northern District, a region that includes the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex and spans 100 

counties and stretches across 95,000 square miles. 

Chairman CARPER. How many counties do you have? 

Senator CORNYN. Two-hundred-and-fifty-four. 

Chairman CARPER. We have three. [Laughter.] 

Senator COBURN. He visits all three of them every year. [Laughter.] 

Senator CORNYN. We have more cows than people in some of 

them. [Laughter.] 

Chairman CARPER. We have 300 chickens for every person. 

[Laughter.] 

Senator CORNYN. In her role as U.S. Attorney and prosecutor 

over the past decade, Ms. Saldan ̃a has served our State with honor, 

fighting corrupt public officials, organized crime, sex traffickers, 

and other dangerous criminals. 

Throughout her career, Ms. Saldan ̃ a has developed a reputation 

for her decisive and fair temperament and her commitment to excellence. If respect for the rule of law is our standard, and I think 

it should be, we would be hard pressed to find a person more qualified to enforce the law than Ms. Saldan ̃ a. 

For this reason, I was proud to lead the fight for her nomination 

as United States Attorney, along with Senator Hutchison, and I am 

proud to introduce her to Members of the Committee here today. 

I am glad to see my colleague and friend Senator Coburn here as 

the Ranking Member. 

Everyone here today recognizes that there are enormous challenges facing ICE in the coming years, and I have talked to Ms. 

Saldan ̃ a about those quite candidly and I think she understands 

the nature of the challenge that confronts her and confronts the 

Department of Homeland Security in these challenging times. 

And, I even asked her, why in the world would somebody who 

has such a great reputation and has accomplished so much as 

United States Attorney and all the public service she has performed in the past, why would you want this job, where you are 

actually not going to be able to call all the shots from a policy 

standpoint. That is going to come from above, including the President of the United States. And, her comment to me, which I genuinely appreciate, is she said, ‘‘Well, I have to try.’’ To me, that is 
3 

a pretty good answer, because given all the challenges and the divisions that we have in the country, particularly when it comes to 

the immigration issue, I admire someone who said, this is a messy 

business, but I have to try, and so I admire that. 

So, I think this hearing gives you and the Senate an opportunity 

for an open and honest conversation with Ms. Saldan ̃ a about exactly what she would do, if confirmed, to address these challenges. 

I do not need to urge this Committee to take its time and ask her 

the hard questions. I am sure you will. 

But, I do have a request, Mr. Chairman. I do not serve on this 

Committee, but I do serve on the Senate Judiciary Committee, and 

as you know, the Senate Judiciary Committee has a lot of interaction with ICE and the Department of Homeland Security, as 

well. I mentioned this to Ms. Saldan ̃ a, but, of course, this will be 

decided by you and by Chairman Leahy and the Majority Leader, 

but I think it would be enormously productive if, following this 

Committee’s hearing and decisions with regard to this nomination, 

that there be a sequential referral to the Senate Judiciary Committee. 

I have signed a letter, along with Ranking Member Senator 

Grassley, requesting that, and I think that would do a lot, I think, 

to help Senators gain the sort of familiarity and confidence that I 

have in Ms. Saldan ̃ a as a person, but also help her when she is 

confirmed develop the kinds of relationships that are going to be 

very important and very productive to her chance to succeed in this 

very difficult job. So, I hope you will join me in that request. 

The most difficult question facing the next leader of ICE is how 

they will respond to President Obama’s upcoming actions on immigration enforcement. As we all know, the President has announced 

that after the November elections, he will unilaterally issue a series of Executive Orders that will attempt to change our Nation’s 

immigration laws without the consent of Congress. I believe such 

actions would violate our Constitution and the laws of the land, 

and I have mentioned that quite candidly to Ms. Saldan ̃ a, and also 

to Secretary Jeh Johnson, and told them that for those of us who, 

in good faith, want to try to move forward and fix what is broken 

in our Nation’s immigration laws, this would undermine the good 

will and the opportunity, the confidence of the American people, 

that we need in order to get the job done. So, this is going to be 

tough, and I hope the President reconsiders. 

We should be deeply concerned about the damage that such unilateral executive actions would have to our already broken immigration system, as I said, and they would, of course, I think, contribute to the perception that is already being marketed by the cartels who traffic in children and other immigrants—this is their 

business model, as we know, and they make a lot of money doing 

it, and it is far from compassionate. This gives the impression that 

we will not enforce our laws, which, indeed, contributes to the magnet of illegal immigration. 

We need to fix our broken immigration system, but we need to 

eliminate illegal immigration and accommodate our current immigration laws in a way that reflects our values and reflects our interests as a Nation. 
4 

I really do believe, and I realize how harsh this sounds, but I do 

believe that the President’s announced plans are an invitation for 

lawlessness and will ensure that the surge of the illegal immigration on our Southern border will continue for years to come. So, I 

hope, with all sincerity, he does reconsider. 

So, I am concerned about the implication of the President’s stated intentions. I am also concerned about what that means in terms 

of Ms. Saldan ̃ a’s opportunity to be successful in the job to which 

she has been nominated and which I expect she will be confirmed. 

Although she is tough, she is smart, and fiercely independent as a 

prosecutor—she has demonstrated that—I am concerned that if she 

is confirmed, her voice will be silenced or undermined by these unilateral actions that the President has said he intends to take. 

So, I am glad that Ms. Saldan ̃a will have the opportunity to discuss these very serious issues before the Committee today, and I 

am confident you will be impressed with her, as I am, and that if 

she is given this opportunity and a fair chance to be successful by 

enforcing the laws of our land and then advocating policy changes 

that need to be made to improve our broken immigration system, 

I think she will be a success as the Director of ICE. 

So, I look forward to hearing Ms. Saldan ̃ a’s responses to the 

Committee’s questions and helping members of the Senate make 

an informed decision about this important nomination. 

And, I would just close, again, with this plea, Mr. Chairman. I 

hope you will work with us on this sequential referral, because, as 

I told Ms. Saldan ̃ a, I think this is really important to the Senate 

getting a sense of confidence about who she is and also helping her 

develop the kinds of relationships she is absolutely going to need 

if she is going to be a success in this important position. 

Thank you very much. 

Chairman CARPER. Well, let me just say to our friend, Senator 

Cornyn, I was impressed by her before. Having you sit here and 

say these things that you have about her today makes me all the 

more impressed. Your insight is very helpful, I think, to our Committee. 

Let me take under advisement with Dr. Coburn your suggestion 

on sequential, and I think we will want to have a conversation with 

you and with Chuck Grassley on his birthday—it is today—and 

maybe with Senator Leahy, the Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, just have a good conversation about it as quickly as possible 

and see if we cannot find some appropriate resolution. 

But, thank you so much. I know you have a lot going on and you 

are good to come by. 

Tom, anything you want to add before Senator Cornyn leaves? 

Senator COBURN. No, just to say to Senator Cornyn, thank you. 

Chairman CARPER. John, thank you so much. 

Do people call you Judge? Do they call you Mr. Secretary? Do 

they have other names for you? 

Mr. CHERTOFF. They have other names. On a good day, it is 

Judge or Mr. Secretary. On a bad day, I cannot say it in this company—— [Laughter.] 

Chairman CARPER. It is great to see you. Thanks for all of your 

service for our country, and especially for being here today to say 
5 

1The letter from Mr. Chertoff appears in the Appendix on page 186. 

something nice about Russ Deyo, when no one else would. [Laughter.] 

Thank you for joining us. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE MICHAEL 

CHERTOFF, EXECUTIVE CHAIRMAN AND CO-FOUNDER, 

CHERTOFF GROUP, AND FORMER SECRETARY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY 

Mr. CHERTOFF. Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member Coburn, it 

is good to be back, particularly not in the hot seat, but more as a 

collateral participant. 

Chairman CARPER. It is a lot more fun this way, is it not? 

Mr. CHERTOFF. A lot more fun. And, I am delighted to be here 

to introduce Russ Deyo, who, as you know, is the nominee for 

Under Secretary for Management at the Department of Homeland 

Security. 

I wrote a letter to each of you on his behalf, which I ask be made 

part of the record.1

I know I do not have to tell you how important this job is. It is 

not one that usually gets a lot of visibility in the national press, 

but it is really critical to the functioning of the Department of 

Homeland Security. And, I know both of you have taken a particular interest in the management issues at the Department. 

I have to say that maybe this is a more challenging time than 

any in recent years for a couple of reasons. First, we are operating 

in a constrained budget environment. But, second, the challenges 

have increased. 

Senator Cornyn made mention of the issues at the border and 

the surge we had over the summer of unaccompanied minors. I 

would add to that the fact that, in light of what is going on in Iraq 

and Syria and the foreign fighter problem, I think there are going 

to be enhanced challenges in terms of border security and aviation 

and infrastructure security as we deal with what I think is inevitably going to be some fallout from the operations we are undertaking in the Middle East right now. 

And, I even have to say that the Ebola issue is going to present 

a challenge. A lot of people do not realize the Department of Homeland Security has a critical role to play in dealing with the possibility of a global pandemic. We went through this back in the days 

of the severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) epidemic and then 

when there was concern about avian flu, and I think that is going 

to be yet another obligation and responsibility. 

So, the tasks are going to multiply and these cannot be discharged without an efficient management structure. 

I know that while the Department has matured quite a bit with 

the leadership of this Committee and the people at the Department, there is more work to be done. The acquisition system is not 

fully mature. The financial management system is not fully mature. The budgeting system is not fully mature. There are challenges with respect to human resources. All of these are critical for 

the Department to perform its security function and its other functions. 
6 

And, that is why I am so delighted that the President has nominated Russ Deyo. Russ is a fellow alumnus of the U.S. Attorney’s 

Office in New Jersey. We did not overlap, but his reputation was 

very well established when I arrived there to start my tenure. He 

did an outstanding job as an Assistant U.S. Attorney and he is an 

outstanding lawyer. 

But, more to the point for the particular position he has been 

nominated for, he has broad experience in the private sector, not 

only as General Counsel of Johnson and Johnson, which is one of 

the leading companies in the United States, but as someone who 

had responsibility across a broad range of management issues— 

human resources, procurement, health care compliance, real estate—and, of course, that is pertinent to St. Elizabeths’, which I 

know you all have an interest in. 

Chairman CARPER. Let me just say, with respect to St. Elizabeths’, thank you very much for your ongoing support for that 

project and for your continued input. We are grateful for that. 

Mr. CHERTOFF. And, I am happy to continue to assist with that. 

So, Russ brings to the position he has been nominated for a 

broad range of experience with one of the best enterprises in the 

world in dealing with all of the issues that are going to have to be 

dealt with as an Under Secretary if he is confirmed. 

I had the opportunity to meet with him. In fact, I tried to twist 

his arm a little bit to take this job, and I am glad that the twisting 

worked. And, as you get to know him and work with him, if he is 

confirmed, you will find him to be a smart, experienced, and devoted public servant who will actually bring a unique set of skills 

to this job which are very critical. 

So, I thank the Committee for hearing from me. I could not give 

a stronger endorsement to Mr. Deyo for this position. I think, if he 

is confirmed, he will serve effectively and honorably, and I think 

you will enjoy working with him, which, of course, I know is also 

important to you. 

I am afraid I am going to have to excuse myself, but again, I 

want to thank the Committee for the opportunity to appear, and 

I want to thank Russ for inviting me to introduce him. 

Chairman CARPER. Well, you are good to come and join us today. 

I know he appreciates very much your introduction and your presence here. So do we, and your words mean a great deal. 

Dr. Coburn, anything you would like to say before Judge Chertoff 

leaves? 

Senator COBURN. It is great to see you again. 

Chairman CARPER. Yes, great to see you again. Thanks so much. 

Take care. 

And, Mickey Barnett, I will introduce you in just a moment, but 

we are delighted to have had John Cornyn and Judge Chertoff be 

here. 

Let me just go ahead. I have a fairly brief statement I would like 

to give, and then yield to Dr. Coburn for whatever comments that 

he would like to make. And, then, we will swear in our witnesses 

and get started. 

As you know, we are meeting today to consider three nominations, Sarah Saldan ̃ a, Russell Deyo, and Mickey Barnett, who now 

serves, in the second year as the Chairman of the Board of Gov-
7 

ernors for the U.S. Postal Service. Sarah has been nominated to 

head up ICE, and Russ Deyo to be the Under Secretary of Management at the Department of Homeland Security. 

I would just say that Secretary Johnson, whom we have enormous respect for, told us that he was sending us a couple of good 

names, and we think that he and the President have. 

Mickey, we are grateful for your service and your willingness to 

serve further as a Governor on the Board of Governors. 

I know my colleagues and I on the Committee are pleased to see 

the President has put forth nominees. The head of the ICE agency 

has been vacant for, or without a Presidentially appointed leader, 

I want to say, for 14 months, and we need this position filled. It 

needs to be filled with a Presidentially appointed and Senate approved leader. We are grateful for those who have served in the interim in this capacity, but this is far too long, particularly when 

we think about all the issues we face along our borders and the 

more than, I think, 400 laws that ICE enforces. Thankfully, Ms. 

Saldan ̃ a has agreed to step forward and take up this challenge and 

we appreciate it. 

As Senator Cornyn has said, you have a distinguished record as 

the U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Texas, where you 

represent the U.S. Government in some 100 counties. In this role, 

you have the front row seat to the threats that our country faces 

every day from transnational criminal networks, something that 

will serve you well if you are confirmed for this position. 

Ms. Saldan ̃ a is a true American success story. We have heard a 

little bit about it from Senator Cornyn, rising from humble beginnings in South Texas as the youngest of seven children, to become 

an accomplished partner at the major law firm and one of the Nation’s top law enforcement officers. I think when you were a kid 

growing up in Corpus Christi, I was a Naval flight officer, got my 

wings at Corpus Christi Naval Air Station, not far from where you 

grew up. 

You come to us highly recommended by Senator Cornyn and others. But, as our friend from Texas, Senator Cornyn, has said, this 

Committee knows all too well Ms. Saldan ̃ a has been nominated to 

one of the most difficult positions in our government. This is a hard 

job, and that is why it is important to have a proven leader and 

a respected member of the law enforcement community at the 

helm. 

Ms. Saldan ̃ a, you will have a tough job ahead of you, if confirmed. You know that, but I believe that you are up to the task 

and look forward to supporting your nomination. 

The Committee is also considering today the nomination of Russ 

Deyo to be Under Secretary for Management at the Department of 

Homeland Security. This is an extremely important position, as 

Judge Chertoff has said, given the challenges associated with melding 22 different agencies together into one cohesive Department, 

and we have come a long way. I like to think that this Committee, 

led by Senator Lieberman and Senator Collins before, now by Dr. 

Coburn and I, that we had something to do with it, but we have 

had good leadership in the Department and real progress has been 

made in addressing some of the many challenges they faced. But, 

in order for that to continue, we need strong leadership, and I 
8 

think Mr. Deyo will be able to provide precisely that kind of leadership. 

Until his retirement in 2012, Mr. Deyo had an impressive 27- 

year career with Johnson and Johnson, where he served in several 

top positions, including General Counsel and Vice President for Administration. And, like the Department of Homeland Security, 

Johnson and Johnson is a large organization with multiple divisions that have distinct, yet related, missions. Mr. Deyo’s perspective from the private sector will be a valuable asset to another 

Johnson, that being Jeh Johnson, particularly as you work toward 

the unity of effort that will make the Department greater than the 

sum of its parts. 

Mr. Deyo, I think the Department and the American people are 

fortunate that you are willing to take on this assignment, and we 

thank your family for sharing you with us. 

We are also fortunate to have with us Mickey Barnett—nice to 

see you—who has been renominated by the President to serve on 

the Postal Service’s Board of Governors. Mr. Barnett currently 

serves, as I mentioned, as the Chairman of the Board, a position 

he has held for 2 years. If confirmed, he would embark on a third 

term with the Board, where he has been a Governor since 2006, 

one of the longest-serving Governors in America, I would say. A different kind of Governor. 

Mr. Barnett’s nomination comes at a very challenging time, as 

we know, for the Postal Service. The Postal Service operates at the 

center of a massive printing, delivery, and logistics industry that 

employs millions of people. In recent years, the organization has 

been faced with a decrease in First Class Mail volumes, as we 

know, and by extension, revenues. The Postal Service today carries 

barely enough cash to make payroll. We all want a Postal Service 

that our constituents and businesses can rely on, one that has a 

chance of continuing the remarkable progress we have seen made 

in package delivery, really remarkable, and a Postal Service that 

takes full advantage of other opportunities that lie ahead, about 

which I am actually very encouraged. 

Our Committee has sent a bill to the full Senate—Dr. Coburn 

and I and our staffs have worked on it for, it seems like forever, 

but I think we have done good work. The Committee reported it 

out by a big bipartisan margin. It is before the Senate now for their 

consideration. But, our bill would enable the Postal Service to save 

billions of dollars in pension and health care costs. We believe our 

bill is a solid, comprehensive, and realistic response to a real crisis 

and we look forward to debating it, discussing amendments to it on 

the floor, and acting on it during the upcoming lame duck session. 

Congress holds the keys to the Postal Service’s future, but the 

Board of Governors serves a vital role in setting the direction and 

policies of this large organization. I think the Senate must move 

quickly to confirm all the nominees to the Board—there are now 

five that are before us, including the four who have already been 

considered and approved by this Committee, a month or so ago, 

and they are, I think, a good, strong quartet. 

I look forward to talking with you today, Mr. Barnett, about 

what you think needs to be done further to address the challenges 

facing the Postal Service and the skills that you bring to the table. 
9 

1The prepared statement of Senator Coburn appears in the Appendix on page 37. 

And, to conclude, I want to thank all of our nominees again for 

being here, for your willingness to serve our Nation in these important roles, and also, again, to thank your families for sharing you 

with us. 

And, with that, let me yield to my friend, Dr. Coburn. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR COBURN 

Senator COBURN. Well, first of all, I thank all three of you for 

being willing to serve. Appreciate you being here and your family’s 

sacrifice that comes along with your commitment. 

I have a formal statement1 that I would ask unanimous consent 

to be placed in the record. 

I had a great visit with Russ Deyo yesterday. I have been aware 

of the work of Governor Barnett for a number of years. And, I look 

forward to our meeting this afternoon, Ms. Saldan ̃ a. 

I just would say, Homeland Security’s primary mission—one of 

their five core missions—the first mission is preventing terrorism 

and enhancing security, and that all fails if we do not have interior 

enforcement, and we do not right now. So, the big job—and I am 

so appreciative of Jeh Johnson. Ms. Saldan ̃ a comes with law enforcement background. She gets it. But, Jeh has managed to put 

in line effective people at almost every spot as he has taken over 

Homeland Security. 

And, my hope is, is as we go through this process, that we can 

do speedily the work of getting you into positions. And, on that 

basis, I am not excited about a sequential referral on your nomination, simply because I think we need your feet on the ground, and 

if we have a sequential referral, that means you will not be approved until sometime in December. So, I think that is unfortunate. It is unnecessary. And, so, I would love to be in on that discussion. 

Anyhow, I am significantly concerned about ICE. It is 20,000- 

plus employees. That is 15 times what you are doing now. And, 

what we have heard in terms of whistleblowers and legitimate 

things that we have checked out, the rule of law is not occurring 

in ICE today. It is more troubled than anybody knows, and you will 

soon find out. So, I am extremely grateful for you being willing to 

take this on, because it is a difficult challenge for our country. 

I know your husband is from the big city, Oklahoma City—when 

I talk to people about immigration, they are not upset that people 

want to come here. They are upset that the rule of law is being applied inequitably cross different groups. And, their question is, 

well, if the rule of law does not apply in this issue area, why does 

it apply somewhere else? And, if it does not apply to them, why 

does it apply to me? And, so, the very glue that holds us together, 

which you have spent your career, Ms. Saldan ̃ a, enforcing, is the 

idea of the rule of law. It is not perfect, but the attempt at equal 

justice for all under the law has to be the thing that guides us as 

we look at the immigration issue, and—ICE specifically—and, they 

are a very real responsibility for protecting this country. 

So, again, I would just say, thank you, all three, for being here. 

I thank your families and look forward to your testimony. 
10 

Chairman CARPER. Dr. Coburn, thank you. 

We have been joined by Senator Ayotte. Good morning, Kelly. 

Nice to see you. Thanks for joining us. 

Just a very brief further couple of words about each of our nominees, and then I will administer an oath and we will give you the 

opportunity to present your testimony and then we will have some 

good conversation. 

As we have noted earlier, Ms. Saldan ̃ a is a proud native of Corpus Christi, Texas, and currently serves as the U.S. Attorney for 

the Northern District of Texas. Prior to her confirmation as U.S. 

Attorney, she was the Deputy Criminal Chief of the Fraud and 

Public Corruption Section of the Office of U.S. Attorney for the 

Northern District of Texas. However, she began her professional 

career in a different kind of public service, convincing teenagers to 

do their homework as an eighth grade English teacher in Dallas, 

Texas. God bless you. I mentor an eighth grader, so I know. Thank 

you, again, so much for being here and for your service. 

Our next nominee, Russ Deyo, again, 27 years of experience with 

Johnson and Johnson (J&J), most recently a member of the Executive Committee responsible for managing global operations. Prior to 

J&J, Mr. Deyo was an Assistant U.S. Attorney, as we have heard, 

for the District of New Jersey. He served as the Chief of the Special Prosecution Unit during the last 3 years in the U.S. Attorney’s 

Office. We understand you have come out of retirement to consider 

this position. I just wonder if your wife knows you are doing this, 

and maybe you can share that with us—oh, I see she is here. That 

is a good sign. [Laughter.] 

Our thanks to you, ma’am, for your willingness to share this fellow with us for a while. 

Our last nominee, of course, is Mickey Barnett, who has been renominated to the U.S. Postal Service’s Board of Governors. He was 

first nominated to the Board in 2006 and now serves as its Chairman. Earlier in his career, he served on the Hill as an aide to one 

of my favorite colleagues, Pete Domenici from New Mexico, later 

was elected, I think, to the State Senate. Is that right? So, you are 

a Senator, too. In addition to his current duties on the Board, Mr. 

Barnett is managing partner of the Barnett Law Firm and has 

practiced law in New Mexico for over three decades. 

Before we invite our witnesses to give their statements, our Committee rules require that all witnesses at nomination hearings give 

their testimony under oath, and if you would all stand, please, and 

raise your right hand, I would appreciate it. 

Do you swear that the testimony you will give before this Committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 

truth, so help you, God? 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. I do. 

Mr. DEYO. I do. 

Mr. BARNETT. I do. 

Chairman CARPER. Please be seated. 

Ms. Saldan ̃ a, you may proceed with your statement. Feel free to 

introduce your family members. I had a chance to meet some of 

them, but please feel free to introduce them. And, I would say to 

Mr. Deyo and Mr. Barnett, if you have family members or friends 
11 

1The prepared statement of Ms. Saldan ̃ a appears in the Appendix on page 41. 

who you would like to introduce, before you speak, just introduce 

them to us. 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. 

TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE SARAH R. SALDAN ̃ A,1 NOMINATED TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR IMMIGRATION 

AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, Dr. Coburn, and Senators of this Committee, I really do appreciate the time you have 

given me to appear today to be considered for the position of Assistant Secretary for Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and I 

truly do appreciate the time that Senator Cornyn took to join me, 

give me a Texas hug before I gave this testimony. He has been very 

supportive over the years, both with respect to me personally and 

with respect to my office. 

And, I do want to introduce my family, if I may. My husband of 

26 years, Don Templin, my brother, Lupe Saldan ̃ a, my sister 

Marisela Saldan ̃ a back here, who is a State District Court Judge 

back home. My niece, Lupe’s daughter, Cindy Saldan ̃ a. She looks 

like an actress back there. [Laughter.] 

And, a couple of very good friends that wanted to be here with 

me today. 

I am honored by the trust and confidence that the President of 

the United States has shown in me by nominating me to this office. 

I am so grateful for the support of Secretary Johnson and the others at ICE, both on the enforcement and removal side and on the 

investigation side, with whom I have worked for years now back 

home in Dallas. They have been highly supportive over the years, 

and certainly with respect to my preparation for my testimony 

today. 

Senators, I sit before you today as a third generation American, 

the youngest of seven children, and that should tell you something 

about me. Raised by my mother, essentially on her own in South 

Texas. I am a lifelong Texan and very proud of it. 

I would like you to know my mother’s name, Inez Garcia 

Saldan ̃ a, and if she were living today, I can only imagine the pride 

that she would have in seeing me testify before this very esteemed 

Committee, talking about a nomination to an office that is so critically important to the country, and with respect to my nomination 

by the President of the United States of America. I wish she were 

here. 

Chairman CARPER. I have a hunch she is watching. 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. I think so, too, Senator. 

I will tell you, I mentioned her because she is singularly responsible for my being the person I am today. She taught me, not even 

so much through her words as through her deeds, the values that 

she herself practiced: Self-reliance, hard work, and giving of yourself to the public and to others. 

In this brood of seven siblings, I have four brothers who divide 

my loyalties among the different branches of the military. Two of 

my brothers are Marines, as is my husband, Don. One served in 
12 

the United States Navy, and the fourth, David, who I am sure is 

listening today, is a Purple Heart recipient who served with the 

United States Army in Vietnam. 

I have no military experience myself, but I have served my country in various ways. You have mentioned as an Assistant United 

States Attorney and currently the Chief Law Enforcement Officer 

in Dallas and the Northern District of Texas. And, I will tell you, 

Senators, even though I have 40 years of work experience, these 

years in the United States Attorney’s Office, enforcing the rule of 

law in the great State of Texas, have been the best years of my 

professional life, unequivocally. 

And, in these years at the U.S. Attorney’s Office, I have worked 

closely with the people at Homeland Security, as I mentioned, the 

Enforcement and Removal Operations (ERO) people and the people 

on the investigation side, in helping them to take on the task that 

is the mission of the Department of Homeland Security. And, I 

know that they are listening and watching, and I will tell you that 

I join them in wanting to secure the homeland and to ensure public 

safety. 

I have the greatest respect and admiration for them, as I do for 

all the agencies I work with, the Federal Bureau of Investigations 

(FBI) and the Secret Service and Education and all the others. 

Often, they work at their own personal peril, and often, without 

any public acclaim. And, I would be truly honored, if confirmed, to 

continue to serve them back in Dallas and in the Northern District 

of Texas, and on a national level with all of their colleagues. 

Senators, I believe it is important for me to commit to you this 

morning, at this critical time, as you consider my nomination, that 

I will be cooperative and transparent with this Committee, any of 

the other Committees of the Congress, and that I truly appreciate 

the role I come to you before today, even in my role as United 

States Attorney. You are the lawmakers. I enforce the law. 

And, as U.S. Attorney, I am also ever mindful, and I want to assure you that I worry about the management of the agency. I worry 

about the expenditure of the taxpayers’ funds. And, I do my best 

every day in my role as U.S. Attorney to ensure they are spent 

wisely and effectively and toward that ultimate goal of homeland 

security. 

So, I understand the enormity of the task before me that you and 

Senator Cornyn have referenced, and should I be confirmed, but 

neither am I intimidated by it. I know I have shared a story with 

my colleagues at the Department of Justice (DOJ) that they probably get tired of hearing, but I will repeat it here. 

I have never been so proud in my life as the first time I stood 

before a jury in a Federal courtroom and looked at them and said, 

‘‘My name is Sarah Saldan ̃ a and I represent the United States of 

America.’’ And, I am equally proud to tell you that again today. 

I hope to be confirmed as Assistant Secretary. I want to join you 

in your efforts to promote public safety and to ensure the safety of 

the homeland, and I thank you. 

Chairman CARPER. Well, thank you for an inspiring statement. 

Thank you. 

Mr. Deyo, I am glad I do not have to follow that—— [Laughter.] 
13 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Deyo appears in the Appendix on page 130. 

But, I am glad you are here to follow. So, you are recognized. 

Feel free to introduce anyone you would like from your family or 

from the guests that are here. 

TESTIMONY OF RUSSELL C. DEYO,1 NOMINATED TO BE UNDER 

SECRETARY FOR MANAGEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF 

HOMELAND SECURITY 

Mr. DEYO. Thank you, Chairman Carper and Dr. Coburn. It is 

an honor for me to appear before you today as you consider my 

nomination to be Under Secretary for Management at the Department of Homeland Security. 

And, Chairman Carper, as you point out, I am very pleased to 

have members of my family here. Stephanie is my wife of 43 years. 

We have been in love since high school. My two remarkable children are here, Jacqueline—she is gone because of the grandchildren that I will get to in a minute. She is a working mom. My 

son, Bentz, who is a published author and dad. 

Chairman CARPER. Would you raise your hand? Thank you. 

Mr. DEYO. Jacqueline’s husband is also here, Xavier Seys. He is 

a Frenchman by birth, but recently became a U.S. citizen and is 

a proud proponent of the special benefits that come with being a 

citizen of our country. 

Chairman CARPER. Good. Would you raise your hand? 

Mr. DEYO. He is probably not here. He is chasing the two grandchildren, Mathis and Oscar out in the hall. Mathis is 31⁄2. Oscar 

is 18 months. I try to have every moment with them, so I invited 

them, but they are rambunctious and they are wandering the halls. 

They are delightful, as is Bentz’s daughter, Hailey Jane, who is 

home with her mom, Jen, in New Jersey, and made it possible for 

Bentz to be here today. 

Chairman CARPER. We are glad that all of you could be here. 

Welcome. 

Mr. DEYO. Thank you. As to my background, as you have pointed 

out, I retired in 2012 from Johnson and Johnson after 27 really 

wonderful years, the last 15 years on the Executive Committee, the 

principal management group responsible for the company’s global 

operations. 

I must confess, I love retirement, time with the grandkids, traveling with Stephanie, serving on nonprofit boards, and occasionally 

lecturing at business and law schools. But a few months ago I received a call out of the blue from Secretary Johnson asking if I 

would consider being a nominee for the role of Under Secretary for 

Management. And, after meeting with a number of knowledgeable 

people, including former Secretary Chertoff, and long discussions 

with my family, I decided to proceed, and here is why. 

Dr. Coburn, you made reference to the mission of Homeland Security, and I find it both critical and inspirational. I take it personally. It requires constant vigilance, a willingness to change, and the 

ability to react to new circumstances. If confirmed, I would be honored to join the hard working men and women of the Department 

and will endeavor to bring my experience to support this critical 

mission. 
14 

Like both of you, I have enormous respect for Secretary Johnson. 

It is based on our past working relationship and his demonstrated 

leadership. It means a lot to me that both he and former Secretary 

Chertoff, whom I also greatly respect, believe I would bring value 

to this role. 

I do think my experience in private industry should bring a fresh 

perspective to this role. As you well know, DHS consists of several 

operational components. The Under Secretary for Management 

leads a group of six administrative functions that provide support 

to these components. But, importantly, this management group is 

also an engine that can drive better outcomes and greater efficiency through collaboration by and between the components and 

by standardization of strong policies, practices, and reporting. 

As you have pointed out, Johnson and Johnson is similarly decentralized, over 250 individual operating companies around the 

globe in the pharmaceutical, medical device, and consumer space. 

In my roles on the Executive Committee, I was responsible for an 

array of functions that served these operating companies: Human 

resources, compliance, quality, real estate, security, procurement, 

and corporate procurement. In a tough competitive environment, 

companies like Johnson and Johnson need to be proactive, anticipating problems and opportunities and planning for contingencies. 

If confirmed, I would try to reinforce this proactive approach going 

forward. 

In sum, I believe that my experience at Johnson and Johnson 

should serve me well in meeting the challenges that the Department faces to collaborate, align priorities, manage money effectively, and deliver on its critical mission. 

I have been blessed by my family, by my work, by the enormous 

benefits of being a citizen of the United States. This provides me 

an opportunity to provide some payback for the opportunities I 

have had, and I would be very proud to conclude my career representing the United States and working with the men and women 

of the Department. 

Strong work has been done by those who served in the role of 

Under Secretary for Management in the past. I would work hard 

to build on that foundation to make the Department even stronger, 

if confirmed. 

I very much appreciate your consideration. 

Chairman CARPER. There is an old saying that paybacks are hell, 

but not all of them are, and in this case, this could be a gift from 

God and we are grateful for it. Thank you for your willingness to 

serve and for your testimony. 

Mr. DEYO. Thank you. 

Chairman CARPER. With that, let me turn to Chairman Barnett. 

Mickey, please proceed. Thank you. Welcome. 
15 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Barnett appears in the Appendix on page 190. 

TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE MICKEY D. BARNETT,1

NOMINATED TO BE A GOVERNOR, U.S. POSTAL SERVICE 

Mr. BARNETT. Thank you, Chairman Carper, Ranking Member 

Coburn, and Members of the Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear today. 

I also want to thank Senator McConnell for his recommendation 

and President Obama for my nomination. 

These past 8 years have been a real learning experience in regard to the Postal Service. Fortunately, I have served together with 

talented and experienced Governors, and together, we have been 

able to reach consensus on every significant issue, including the selection of the current Postmaster General and Deputy Postmaster 

General. 

I have now become a passionate advocate of the Postal Service 

and its incredible history of service to the people of our country. I 

feel an obligation to do everything I can to make sure it continues 

to be a viable entity capable of prompt and reliable delivery of the 

mail and packages. 

As everyone here knows, the Postal Service is in a crisis mode. Our liabilities are approximately $68 billion, and we have a fleet 

of over 200,000 delivery vehicles with an average age of more than 

22 years. Even with a reduction of more than 200,000 career employees over the past 8 years, a reduction in mail processing facilities, and a reduction in operating hours at some post offices, we are 

unable to service our debt, pay down our liabilities, or pay for needed capital investments. Our most profitable product, First Class 

Mail, continues to decline at 8 percent a year, while our costs, like 

everyone elses, continue to rise. Allow me to elaborate. 

The erosion of First Class Mail volumes are being driven by 

rapid changes in the way Americans communicate. Smartphones, 

texting, e-mails, and the Internet were unheard of only a few short 

years ago. Today, they are the primary way most individuals interconnect. 

Fortunately, as First Class Mail has declined, the U.S. Postal 

Service’s package revenues are growing by more than 10 percent 

compared to last year, and advertising mail revenues are relatively 

steady. However, to fully leverage the package revenue opportunities and remain competitive, the Postal Service will need to invest 

billions of dollars in new delivery vehicles, infrastructure, and new 

package sorting equipment. 

The Postal Service, working in conjunction with the Board, have 

developed a reasonable approach to pay down its debt, achieve financial stability, and if given flexibility through comprehensive 

Postal reform legislation, it can put negative headlines in the rearview mirror. 

Focusing on the business decisions that are within its authority 

to independently implement, the Postal Service, as I said, decreased its career workforce by 205,000 and reduced the annual 

cost base by $15 billion since 2006 through workforce reductions, 

all through attrition and voluntary retirement incentives. The Postal Service has also implemented cost reductions for retail, mail 

processing, transportation, delivery, and administration, literally, 
16 

every area of the organization. In fact, most of these cost reductions have taken place behind the scenes, in areas that do not directly impact Postal customers. 

Moving forward under current law, the Postal Service has some 

limited flexibility to make further cost saving changes. However, 

these measures are insufficient to close the remaining financial 

gap. Given its current governance and business model constraints, 

the Postal Service cannot achieve financial stability without the 

passage of comprehensive Postal reform legislation. If given the 

flexibility by Congress to quickly adapt to today’s evolving marketplace and customer demand, the Postal Service can chart a path 

forward to remain viable and relevant for many years to come. 

As Chairman of the Board of Governors these past 2 years, I 

have had the opportunity to meet with members of the Senate and 

House to discuss Postal reform, and I will not repeat those requests 

here. But, and this is an important point to emphasize—even if all 

of the reforms are made, the Postal Service will remain in trouble 

if it does not work to aggressively generate additional revenue. 

The Board of Governors has made a concerted effort to meet with 

many large mailing customers to discuss and learn what we can do 

to improve. The Board has gone to San Diego, Las Vegas, Phoenix, 

Kansas City, and New York to receive this input from the business 

community on how we can best go forward to put us on a path to 

profitability. These meetings, along with the marketing efforts of 

Postal management, have resulted in significant increases in package delivery. We believe this growth will continue and will offset 

some of the declines in the mail volume. 

I will close with this—two years ago, we met with the futurists. 

I did not know what a futurist was at the time, but we met with 

this lady. She predicted that in 30 years, there will be no paper. 

Now, I am not here to tell you this is a reasonable prediction, because I have no idea, but if that is even possible, the Postal Service 

must be forward thinking. If true, there will be no mail in 30 years. 

That is why we are so focused on increasing our package delivery. 

I am hopeful to continue my service on the Board of Governors 

and can add to my 8 years of experience. I am happy to respond 

to any questions, and thank you for the opportunity to appear here 

today. 

Chairman CARPER. Chairman Barnett, thank you so much for 

your testimony, for your service and willingness to serve further. 

I am going to start my questioning today with the standard three 

questions we ask of all nominees. You do not have to rise. You do 

not have to raise your right hands. But, here are the three questions. 

Is there anything that any of you are aware of in your background that might present a conflict of interest with the duties of 

the office to which you have been nominated? Ms. Saldan ̃ a. 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. No, sir. 

Chairman CARPER. Mr. Deyo. 

Mr. DEYO. No. 

Chairman CARPER. Chairman Barnett. 

Mr. BARNETT. No. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. Second question. Do you know of anything, personal or otherwise, that would in any way prevent you 
17 

from fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to which you have been nominated? Ms. Saldan ̃a. 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. No, sir. 

Chairman CARPER. Mr. Deyo. 

Mr. DEYO. No. 

Chairman CARPER. Chairman Barnett. 

Mr. BARNETT. No. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. And, finally, do you agree, without reservation, to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and testify before any duly constituted Committee of Congress if you are 

confirmed? Ms. Saldan ̃ a. 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. Of course. 

Mr. DEYO. Absolutely. 

Mr. BARNETT. Yes. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. Thank you very much. So far, so good. 

I am just going to start with you, Ms. Saldan ̃ a, if I can. We know 

that the leadership position to which you have been nominated is 

a really demanding, tough job. I once joked with Lisa Jackson. She 

had been nominated by the President, President Bush, George W. 

Bush, to serve as the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Administrator for our country, a hugely challenging job, as well. And, 

at the end of the hearing, I suggested to her that she turn around 

and say goodbye to her children because she would not see them 

until Christmas. They started crying and—— [Laughter.] 

It was not that bad. I was not that heartless. But, I did convey 

the idea that this is a busy job and they might not see her as much 

as they would like. So, I would just say to your husband, how long 

have you all been married, twenty—— 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. Twenty-six. 

Chairman CARPER. Twenty-six years. Well, you will see her before Christmas, but maybe not as much as you would like, if she 

is confirmed. 

I want to talk about two things. We mentioned leadership and 

the word management cropped up a time or two. Most of what I 

have learned about leadership—I learned a lot from my parents 

about values, but I learned in the Navy, and 23 years active in Reserve duty, a good deal about leadership. And, I think leaders are 

folks who have the courage to keep out of step when everyone else 

is marching to the wrong tune. We lead by our example. It is not 

do as I say, but do as I do. I think leaders should have the heart 

of a servant. I think leaders should be humble, not haughty. And, 

I think leaders need to be purveyors of hope and appeal to people’s 

better angels and inspire people to work. If you think you can, we 

think we can’t—I think that is Henry Ford—you are right. So, that 

is the kind of leaders that I look for as we have folks come before 

our Committee. 

I would like for you to talk a little more about leadership. I want 

you to talk, whether it is about management and how your life and 

your life’s experiences, including your work experiences, have embedded in you the kind of management skills that could be helpful, 

maybe upsized and upscaled in this assignment. But, just talk with 

us about that, please. 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. And, I had thought a lot about that—— 
18 

Chairman CARPER. Make sure your microphone is on, please, because we want to hear every word. 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. There is a green light. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. Is that the first sign of a good leader—there. 

Thank you. 

Mr. DEYO. You are welcome. 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. All right. 

Mr. DEYO. That is what management does to help. [Laughter.] 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. That is a very thoughtful question, Mr. Chairman, 

and I have given that a great deal of thought, and I believe every 

experience I have had, and when I talk to young people, both high 

schoolers and college kids and students in law school, I tell them 

to take advantage of everything they have done in their life. 

Whether you are serving sodas in a drug store or doing whatever 

you do, enjoy it, learn from it, and all of these experiences build 

on each other to make you the person you are. 

So, I have been working for a long time. I have been living for 

a long time, and working about 40 years, and, starting with the 

school teacher that you mentioned and the challenges there—— 

Chairman CARPER. Did you ever work as a kid, growing up in 

Corpus Christi? 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. In a drug store, actually. That is why I mentioned 

that—— 

Chairman CARPER. So did I. 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. Yes. So, I have come to learn that leadership requires you to be the point of the spear, the face of the organization, 

the face of the group you are leading, and I have done that with 

the U.S. Attorney’s Office, I believe. 

I believe that a leader really needs to be the face of the office, 

to conduct himself or herself with the greatest ethics and integrity 

and professionalism. As you mentioned, you lead by example. If you 

are not conducting yourself at the highest standards of excellence 

and integrity, it is difficult for people to follow. 

I have had to exercise good judgment, not only in my positions 

at the U.S. Attorney’s Office, but in representing some of the largest corporations in the country when I was working with Baker 

Botts and Haynes and Boone, firms I am very proud to have been 

associated with. Once again, excellence was an expectation there. 

And, so, during that time when I did that, I picked up the skills 

of communication and the importance of relationships, and I do not 

say that in a manner that is intended to be disrespectful. What I 

am saying is relationships are important. You have them all your 

life, and it is a matter of fostering them and making sure that you 

do not slam the door behind you when you leave from one place to 

the other. 

And, then—— 

Chairman CARPER. I would just interject there. I think one of the 

reasons we have a productive Committee here is because of the 

trusting relationship that Dr. Coburn and I worked to create, and 

really with the Committee and with our colleagues. One of the 

things that is most missing here in the Senate these days—and in 

the House—is the trust especially across party lines. So, I concur. 

that is enormously important. 
19 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. And, there is nothing like good judgment, as well, 

and I have honed that judgment over the years, and a little bit of 

common sense does not hurt, either. 

Surrounding yourself with the very best people. In a position like 

this, the demands are great. You cannot get into the weeds, necessarily, but you can make sure that the people that are around 

you running the day-to-day operations are the finest, the best 

trained, and that you work as a leader of that office to provide 

them the tools they need. 

Decisionmaking—once again, deliberate, but timely. You cannot 

just sit on decisions, and you have to think them through. And, I 

can see where that skill will serve me well in this particular position. Be thoughtful. Get all the information you can, and then do 

what is in the best interests of the American people. 

And then, finally, and I think I have repeated this, but it bears 

repeating, communication, communication, communication. In this 

position, with 20,000 employees across the world, with all the agencies we have somewhat overlapping jurisdiction with, all of that, it 

is important to be communicating with them, and I have done that 

as a United States Attorney. I have had to deal with the local law 

enforcement in 100 counties. There is a sheriff in each one of them. 

There is a police chief. There are constables. And, I think all of 

that is going to serve me well if this Committee does and the Senate confirm me. 

Chairman CARPER. Thank you so much for those responses. 

I will yield to Dr. Coburn. When we come back, Mr. Deyo, I will 

have a couple of questions for you and Chairman Barnett. Thank 

you. Tom. 

Senator COBURN. Mr. Chairman, I will make it easy. I do not 

have any questions for Russ Deyo or Mickey. I pretty well am satisfied. I have not had a chance to have a private visit with U.S. Attorney Saldan ̃ a, and so all of my questions are really going to be 

directed to you, and I have a ton, so you will have to forgive me. 

A lot of them will probably end up being in the record. 

I am really worried about ICE. I mean, when ICE releases 600 

criminals based on sequestration, nobody seems to know why. Nobody has taken responsibility for it. And, I am not talking about 

minor criminals. I think the organization has some real conflicts 

within it, and I think it comes back of whether or not the leader 

is going to be establishing that we are going to follow the law. The 

rule of law is important. We are going to make that our mantra, 

and we are going to do that in a kind and compassionate way, but 

we are going to do it. So, bear with me as I go through some questions for you, if I may. 

Last month, the DHS Inspector General (IG) released a report 

that Senator McCain and I had requested which found ICE released thousands of illegal immigrants last year prior to the sequester, and that more than 600 of these had significant criminal 

records. Now, I am talking criminal records here in the United 

States. Are you aware of that report, one? What are your views 

about the decision that somebody made, that nobody will own up 

to, that we released criminals onto the street? And, can you assure 

this Committee that that will not happen under your watch? 
20 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. The answer to the first question is, I am aware of 

that, Senator, and I will tell you that I understand the concern you 

have. I think it is a concern to all the American people, so I am 

glad you brought that up. I want to speak to that directly with respect to the general concept of keeping track of people who are in 

the country and making deliberate, thoughtful decisions. If, in fact, 

the pressures of limited resources versus ensuring the safety of the 

American public, I do that every day as a United States Attorney. 

I have not studied and gotten behind the facts regarding that report, sir, I will be candid with you, but I feel a very strong commitment that that is one of the top issues that I would like to study 

and certainly learn more about. But, in the end, all I have done the 

last few years is enforce the law. That is what I know to do. I like 

the fact that you mentioned some compassion, that there is certainly room for that. But, we have to protect the American public 

first. 

And, so, all I can assure you, Senator, is that I will act in the 

manner that you are requiring the Director of this agency to act, 

and that is with the principle of the rule of law certainly in mind. 

But, I understand those pressures and I will just have to take a 

look at that, Senator, and talk more about that with you, I hope. 

Senator COBURN. OK. ICE Homeland Security investigations has 

a complex mission with enforcement that spans a number of different laws. However, many of these laws overlap with a lot of 

other Federal agencies and law enforcement agencies. If you gain 

this nomination and are confirmed, how are you going to assure us 

that you do not expand into areas of mission creep, because I see 

that as part of our problem right now, is you have limited resources, but we are expanding the mission when, in fact, some 

other Federal agency has it covered already. How are you going to 

make sure that we do not go beyond what is truly part of the essential and primary mission of Homeland Security? 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. Well, I have just gotten to appreciate even more 

how broad that mission is. But, I do recognize, since I work now 

daily with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Secret Service, 

and the Homeland Security Investigations (HSI) at ICE, certainly, 

that there are areas of overlap and we cannot afford today to run 

into each other with respect to the responsibilities we are carrying 

out. 

And, just using cybercrime as an example, everyone has got to 

step up, all the agencies that have some responsibility there, but 

it is also important to stretch the taxpayer dollar by coordinating 

and collaborating. I do that as United States Attorney. I sit down 

with the heads of every agency I work with, with the District Attorney, with the heads of local law enforcement, our public safety, Department of Public Safety, once a quarter. We break bread together. We talk about what we are doing. 

Senator COBURN. I have it. I am not ever going to get through 

these if I let you go on—— 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. Yes. 

Senator COBURN. I understand it, and I appreciate that. 

One of the things you discussed was prosecutorial discretion in 

the area of immigration enforcement, including the need to focus 

prosecutorial resources on the biggest threats to public safety. But, 
21 

as ICE Director, you would have investigative discretion to determine what to investigate. So, my question is, would you apply the 

same logic, focusing investigative resources on the biggest threats? 

And, let me just give you some contrast. How do you compare the 

threat of illegal immigrants, especially those with criminal records, 

or those who overstay their visa terms in terms of intending to be 

a threat to us, as we saw in 9/11, compared with the threat to public safety for fraudulent copyright, fraudulent counterfeit merchandise? How do you weigh those two and how do you apply that investigative resource to what is most important for us in terms of 

protecting the homeland? 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. Well, as I do now as United States Attorney, Senator, you have to look at what is the biggest threat to the American 

public and to the constituents within your district. I believe that 

you have to assess every case, and here is where process and systems that are in place are the most important thing, because you 

have to be able to assure the public that you are looking at every 

case on the merits, on the facts, and on the law. 

So, this is what I would do as one of my first things, if this Senate were to confirm me, is to look at the processes in place to determine, to make that very assessment. But, it has to be on a caseby-case basis. It cannot be by categories, necessarily. 

So, I agree with you, Senator. I think that is an important issue 

facing the agency, and I certainly have kept up and read some of 

the reports. I want to get in there and work on this issue. 

Senator COBURN. Senator Carper, do you want me to go on, or 

do you want to? 

Let us talk EB–5 for a minute. Over the past year, I and others 

have engaged in significant oversight of the EB–5 immigrant investor visa program at the United States Citizenship and Immigration 

Services (USCIS). It is fraught with problems, including very real 

threats to our national security, and it has rampant fraud. That is 

indisputable. 

In the course of that investigation, I have reviewed a ton of documents, including an ICE HSI tasking that stated, the only way to 

protect national security was to sunset the Regional Center portion 

of the EB–5 program. That is ICE’s own report on its own program. 

ICE HSI must carry out investigation of any referrals made by 

USCIS involving this or any other immigration benefit program. 

So, my questions are the following. ICE HSI made this recommendation to sunset this program, yet USCIS continues to expand this program despite its very real inherent national security 

vulnerabilities. As Assistant Secretary, how will you work to ensure that ICE recommendations for preventing national security 

threats are given credence and implemented by agencies, in this 

case, USCIS? 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. Senator, you have identified the top priority within 

Homeland, and that is the national security threat. You have identified the top priority within the Department of Justice in which I 

serve now. I am not familiar with all the facts and circumstances 

related to the situation you are talking about. That is one thing 

that the Director of ICE has to focus on, is any process that touches upon how we assess these threats and what we do about them. 
22 

If I am confirmed, I need to get involved, get all the information 

I can, hopefully, discuss this matter further. It sounds like you 

have studied this a great deal. But, the bottom line is, that is the 

top priority of the Director of ICE, is assessing the systems that 

determine the severity, the seriousness, of any national security 

threat, and I commit to you I will do that, and, hopefully, get your 

assistance in kind of assessing the problem. 

Senator COBURN. With me, it is unexplainable, why EB–5 Regional Center programs have not been shut down already. I cannot 

get an answer to it. I cannot get anybody that wants to take responsibility for it. China steals our intellectual property. They, as 

a nation-state, invade our computers all the time. And, they are 

going to have over 98 percent of the EB–5 regional programs this 

year, where they are taking money they have stolen from us, invest 

it back into an EB–5 program, and then put counterintelligence 

people on the ground in this country with our blessing. It makes 

no sense whatsoever, and nothing is being done about it. This 

should be one of your highest priorities, because it is a real risk 

to this country and we are sitting there saying, come on, do it some 

more, because we have not shut down the Regional Center program. 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. And, I will do that, Senator. I will. 

Senator COBURN. The Associated Press (AP) last week reported 

that the United States is sharply curtailing deportations. The AP 

noted, the Department of Homeland Security figures show it deported 258,000 illegal immigrants through July 28 of 2014. The 

same period last year, 321,000. According to the L.A. Times, deportations from the interior are down more than 40 percent since 

2009. And, the Associated Press also reported that ICE is on pace 

this year to remove the fewest immigrants since 2007. 

We have had the discussion on what the law says, in terms of 

the rule of law. This flies in the face of what the rule of law is. 

However, the administration has claimed it has deported record 

numbers, and the reason they can claim that is because they talked 

about people who come across and are immediately deported, 

which, we did not use to count the numbers that way. So, we are 

playing games. We have a spin game going on with the administration in terms of what the factors are about real interior deportations. 

I give that to you so that when you work with this Committee— 

the one thing you find is we will work with anybody as long as they 

shoot straight with us. So, numbers are important, and how you 

get the numbers are important. So, if you change the baseline or 

change the denominator, you ought to be honest enough to tell us 

that, and I just put that forward. 

Mr. Chairman, I will stop right now and I will submit the rest 

of my questions for the record, or I will get them covered this afternoon. 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. Thank you, sir. 

Chairman CARPER. Thank you, Dr. Coburn. 

Ms. Saldan ̃ a, I am going to let you take a breath, have a drink 

of water—— [Laughter.] 

Chairman CARPER [continuing]. And I will turn to your colleagues here, Mr. Deyo and Chairman Barnett, if I can. 
23 

One of the folks who has testified before the Committee any 

number of times in the past was Jane Holl Lute, who was Deputy 

Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security. I thought she 

served with great effect. She was a very good leader. And, she used 

to go over and meet—sometimes, Secretary Napolitano would go, as 

well—but, they would go over and meet with the Government Accountability Office (GAO), Gene Dodaro who heads up GAO, and 

basically sit down with him and say, ‘‘What do we have to do to 

get off your High-Risk List?’’ 

The High-Risk List is something the GAO puts out every year, 

about every other year, and it covers, really, our broad Federal 

Government, and the idea behind the High-Risk List is, how do we 

get better results for less money in almost everything we do? It is 

an invaluable service they provide. And, the question is what our 

agencies do with it. What do they do with it? 

DHS, as you may know, was on the High-Risk List for a number 

of years because they were unable to achieve unqualified financial 

statements, and now they have finally done that, after all these 

years. Others, they made real progress. The person who held this 

post before you, actually, was a very strong leader and manager. 

As you know, the management of this Department remains on 

GAO’s High-Risk List, and we feel—I hope you do, too—that this 

is an operation that continues to need a lot of attention. The Department has an Inspector General. This Department’s IG has also 

produced a considerable body of work related to management of the 

Department. Real progress has been made, and it has been made 

in the last 6 months, but also in the last 6 years, and a lot of people have been responsible for that. 

But, more needs to be done. If it is not perfect, make it better. 

That is my motto. And, so, I would just say, what would your approach be to working with both the GAO and with the Inspector 

General to address the Department’s major management challenges? What are some of those that still you think would require 

your immediate attention? How much would you work with GAO 

and the IG to achieve those? 

Mr. DEYO. Thank you, Chairman Carper. First, let me say, I had 

the benefit of a conversation with Jane Holl Lute telephonically, 

and I plan to meet with her again. I share your perception of her. 

I have also met with Rafael Borras and some of the other former 

Under Secretaries for Management, and I have a lot to learn from 

them. They have all been very helpful—— 

Chairman CARPER. You talked to Jane Holl Lute and Rafael 

Borras. Those are two of the smartest calls you could make. That 

is good. 

Mr. DEYO. I look forward to learning more from them. 

In terms of Inspector General and GAO, I know the benefit of 

independent oversight and receiving that kind of input and I welcome it, and I would intend to work closely with both GAO and the 

Inspector General in terms of understanding their concerns and 

being held accountable for addressing them. I think it should be in 

open, transparent discussions. 

To get a little bit deeper into it, but not too deep, when I think 

about my own personal priorities based on the preliminary views 

I have looked at, it pretty well aligns with the high-risk areas that 
24 

GAO has identified, and I think that alignment underscores the 

value of the GAO input, as well as my concern about improving the 

management and the efficiency and effectiveness. 

I also had a conversation with George Scott at GAO and that was 

also very positive. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. One of the reasons that the Department’s management is on the High-Risk List is that its processes 

for planning and for overseeing major acquisitions are still relatively immature, at least by Federal standards. In general, GAO 

has found the Department has good policies on paper, but that 

many major acquisitions have moved forward without the kind of 

documentation and review that these policies actually require. And, 

the Department needs to find better ways to align planning and 

outcomes across the whole Department. This would both eliminate 

duplication, we hope, and to ensure that the resources are matched 

to the highest priorities. 

This is a large part of what Secretary Johnson calls his unity of 

effort. That is what it is largely all about. Based on your experiences, what is the proper balance, if you will, between an organization’s headquarters and its components in terms of management 

and accountability? 

Mr. DEYO. First of all, I agree with you about the power of the 

unity of effort, and I also agree that the structure of the lifecycle 

management of acquisitions looks pretty good. What is needed is 

discipline about each stage review to make sure that the requirements are clearly defined, each step is being met before it moves 

on, and that takes discipline and it takes collaboration between the 

center and the components. 

I think it is a question of shared accountability, where both feel 

accountable for the outcomes that the—particularly on the highest 

priority acquisitions that are most critical to the mission, and we 

need to gain alignment with the components and the center on 

what those are. They need to be the highest priority, appropriately 

addressed, and put at the top of the list and managed well because 

the outcomes are so critical. 

So, it is shared accountability, it is management willing to demonstrate the benefits it is bringing to help the components fulfill 

their function, but also, if necessary, demonstrating the benefit of 

a common practice and process. Does that answer your question? 

Chairman CARPER. Yes, I think so. I think you come close. 

Mr. DEYO. I have to see it firsthand to see how it really operates 

before I can delve too deeply. 

Chairman CARPER. All right. As you may know, for the first time, 

this Department, the Department of Homeland Security, achieved 

a clean opinion on its financial statements in fiscal year 2013. A 

lot of people worked very hard, and that is regarded certainly by 

us as a major achievement, and it is one that we hold out regularly 

to our friends in the Department of Defense, who have been around 

a lot longer than DHS, and say, well, look what they have done at 

DHS. What kind of progress are you making at the Pentagon? And, 

they are starting to make some progress. But, actually, the example provided by DHS, and sort of the road map it has provided, is 

very helpful, of leadership by example, and we are using it, I hope, 

effectively. 
25 

But, while that is a major achievement, of getting a clean financial opinion, I think the Department’s success here was due in 

large part to the clear message that was sent from the top leadership of the Department for what was and remains an important 

goal. What would be your messaging to the rest of the Department 

about the importance of maintaining a clean audit? And, based on 

your reviews thus far of the Department’s financial systems, to the 

extent you have been able to do that, what do you think should be 

the goals of the modernization of the financial systems? Any 

thoughts you have on that? What benefit might that bring to the 

efficiency, the efficient operation of the Department? Those three 

questions. 

Mr. DEYO. I share your view and applaud the success in getting 

a clean audit. That is a tremendous accomplishment. It is not 

meaningful, however, unless it is sustained, because you have to 

have confidence in those balance sheets, in those numbers on an 

annual basis. And, I know that the Department and the finance 

group are absolutely dedicated to making that happen. 

The next big piece, as far as I can see so far, is we need to have 

a fully integrated financial management system across all the components. You have to have reliable information so you can make 

smart budget decisions and have good analytics to make good strategic decisions. And, having ledger sheets that do not match up and 

you cannot compare apples to apples across the groups makes it 

very difficult to make informed strategic decisions. 

I think it is critical that the agency have a long-term focus, and 

you cannot do that if you do not have reliable data. So, that is an 

existent high priority within the finance group, and, indeed, with 

the leadership of the Department, and I strongly embrace that. At 

Johnson and Johnson, it would be unimaginable that, despite all 

the complexity and the decentralized nature, that there was not a 

common financial system so that you could accurately make strategic decisions and accurately report what the actual financial 

numbers were. 

Chairman CARPER. All right. Good. Thank you. Thank you for 

that. 

Do you mind if we turn to Mickey Barnett for a while—— 

Mr. DEYO. I would be pleased with that decision. I support that 

decision. [Laughter.] 

Chairman CARPER. As I sometimes say when I ask questions like 

that, I say, ‘‘I am Tom Carper, and I approve that message,’’ so, 

all right. 

To our Chairman, we had some interesting conversations just 

this week with the Postmaster General, Pat Donahoe, and also 

with our Deputy Postmaster General, Ron Stroman, and some good 

conversations. Among the questions we have been exploring are, 

how is the Postal Service doing? For the most part, when we talk 

about the Postal Service, there is so much red ink, cut in half, reduce by half the workforce, reduce by half the mail processing centers, reduce the time that thousands of our Post Offices are open 

in rural communities across the country. The tone is actually pretty negative. 

But, as it turns out, in spite of all that, there is, I think, a remarkable transformation going on within the Postal Service. I have 
26 

said any number of times in this room, the real key to success longterm for the Postal Service, I have learned, is how do we take this 

200-plus-year-old distribution network and make it relevant, not 

just relevant, but successful and vibrant in a digital economy in the 

21st Century, and it is possible to do that. And, little known to 

most of the people that I serve with and to the rest of this country, 

you are actually beginning to do that. 

And, one of the things we talked about, is how the First Class 

Mail continues to drop. That is a problem, because the Postal Service, for years, that has been your bread and butter. You make 

money doing other things, but that is the most profitable part of 

the business, and a lot of that business has gone away, especially 

in the last 7 years, as you know better than any of us. 

But, just as the Internet has taken away a lot of business for the 

Postal Service, it is in the process of giving it back, big time. I am 

going to ask you to talk a little bit about some of the new opportunities that are being pursued. Like, this morning, between 3 a.m. 

and 7 a.m. in San Francisco, the Postal Service is out there delivering groceries and doing this in partnership with, Amazon. I think 

it is with Amazon. I understand you are going to reach out to 100 

grocery chains across the country. I think there are 32 ZIP codes 

in San Francisco. 

This took place this morning. You used your trucks, your vehicles 

that otherwise would not be doing anything to deliver the groceries. 

I think you folks have access to high-rise apartments because you 

Postal folks have keys, anyway, to get in to deliver the mail, and 

you have the opportunity to deliver the groceries, as well. So, you 

have these vehicles that otherwise would not be used. Let us put 

them to use. And, part of your skill sets is the ability to provide 

access to these buildings and better service, which is important. 

We understand that the deliveries you are making on Sundays 

for Amazon has grown from a couple hundred ZIP codes now to 

over 5,000, and growing. There is growth, continued growth in flat 

rate boxes. There is some, I think, good growth already in Priority 

Mail, and you are about to see a lot more of that, we think, as we 

come into the holiday season. So, those are all positives. 

I would just ask you to talk about this glass half-full story for 

the Postal Service, not just the glass empty or half-empty, but talk 

to us about a glass half-full, what we need to do in this body to 

make sure that it is a glass half-full and that the Postal Service 

will not be a burden to the people of this country, the taxpayers, 

but it will be something we can all be enormously proud of. Please. 

Mr. BARNETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and also thank you to 

you and your staff, who I know have worked diligently now for 

years trying to get postal reform legislation, which we hope will 

eventually occur. 

It is half-full in all of the things you describe. The Board has 

been diligent at going everywhere we can go to meet with potential 

customers to expand our income opportunities. Some have been 

very fruitful, as the Chairman pointed out. Others are continuing 

to grow. The growth of small businesses and eBay and those kind 

of things are going to be large growths in small package delivery, 

of which we are well positioned to be the choice of the consumers 

or the businesses for delivery. 
27 

It cannot be all half-good because we have competitors in the 

arena, which is great, and we would like to operate as they do, as 

a business. These are what we call the competitive sides of the 

business. They are not like first class, governed by monopolistictype theories of utility regulation. However, we are not as nimble 

as we need to be because most of our—we can do trials, we can do 

tests, but everything else has to go to the Postal Regulatory Commission (PRC) for approval. That is a tedious, expensive, and very 

slow moving operation over there. And, so, we sometimes have 

great opportunities, great ideas, and it takes us months to get it 

to fruition. 

The test marketing for the grocery delivery has been a success. 

We saw film of them at 3 in the morning and film of them going 

to doorsteps and things like that. That ties in with a large amount 

of effort that the Board and management has done to try to come 

up with possibly a 21st Century mailbox, because as package delivery overtakes mail delivery, it has new problems. The two existing 

problems are where do you leave the packages if the party is not 

home, and second, our delivery vehicles are not now equipped to do 

the volume we need to stay solvent, particularly when they are 22 

years old and they are designed for mail delivery, not package delivery. Now, we have some package delivery, but not near the volume that we hope to grow to. 

We, clearly, can be the last mile for every carrier in the country. 

We probably can do it more efficiently than they can in every area 

except probably a densely urban site. It is profitable for anybody 

to deliver in that environment. It is not as you go more rural, to 

your State or particularly my State out in the Southwest. Lots of 

things are very far apart, and we are well equipped to do it, and 

we need to, with 150-million-plus delivery sites every day. 

I will not go through the litany of needing more flexibility on delivery time. We need help on Workers’ Comp. We have a guy, 100 

years old, that once worked 3 weeks for the Postal Service when 

he took office in 1957, worked 3 weeks, and he has been on Workers’ Comp since then. That is a system that is broken and we need 

a way of, one, resolving the Workers’ Comp benefits, and, two, having some date certain at which they convert to retirement. 

But, those are all postal reform ideas. The phenomenal success 

of Postmaster General Donahoe and the entire team at the Postal 

Service is unprecedented. The fact you could reduce your workforce 

by several hundred thousand people with no work stoppages, no 

labor unrest, no anything, is somewhat unprecedented in this country’s history. It has all been done. Now, I am not saying there is 

not some concern over it, but it has been done very well. 

Second, the last time I appeared, we had some discussion about 

the difficulties faced in closing of rural Post Offices, those that 

have—and we reached a very good compromise at reducing them 

to 2 hours a day, 4 hours a day, or 6 hours a day. That has worked 

very well. So, there has been—I will call that a political solution, 

but a compromise solution to that sort of thing. And, by and large, 

the uproar seems to have died about that and most people, 2 hours 

a day is plenty for the hundred people that may live in the vicinity 

of a rural Post Office. 
28 

Chairman CARPER. As I understand it, what the Postal Service 

did, and I thought this was smart, they asked the question, how 

would I want to be treated if I lived in one of these several thousands of communities where there is not a whole lot of volume by 

the Post Office, but there is a desire to continue to have that Postal 

Service in some form, and what I think you did in thousands of 

communities, you just basically said to them, well, here is a menu 

of options. Which would be most desirable or preferable to you? 

You can have your Post Office open, maybe, 2, 4, 6 hours a day, 

not by a full-time Postmaster, but by someone who is going to come 

in, maybe make $15 an hour to make sure that service is provided 

on a daily basis most days. 

You said, you could have the option of, like, the rural letter carrier, who will say that your table there encompasses an area that 

is serviced by a rural letter carrier and each of your name tags represents a different spot around the route that the carrier goes to, 

and where Ms. Saldan ̃ a’s name tag, at 8 in the morning, the rural 

letter carrier will be there to be a mobile Post Office, almost like 

a bookmobile. And, then, where Mr. Deyo’s name tag is, that will 

be a 9 stop, where he can provide, like, a mobile Post Office. And, 

where your name is, it would be 10. I thought that was a pretty 

good option that was provided to folks in rural areas. 

Another option was, maybe, to co-locate the Post Office with a 

general store, a convenience store that offers, actually, longer hours 

of operation than might otherwise be available. 

I think that was very smart, and the communities could actually 

say, we like this, we do not like that, and have a real say in it. 

I thought that was smart. 

In terms of what we can do—Congress, working with the President—what we can do to further facilitate and nurture, promote innovation, what can we do to enable you, the Postal Service, to find 

new ways to make money, maybe things that you are thinking of 

doing, maybe even that you are beginning to do that we can actually then have great potential. People talk a lot about other countries, the Postal Service delivers wine, beer, spirits. We do not do 

that here, although FedEx and UPS do. Is that an area that you 

need authorization? But, there are other ideas. Where do we come 

into this and where can we be helpful? 

Mr. BARNETT. The primary way, I think, the Congress would 

come in, and the President, would be to free us up to do it. We are 

treated as a utility, which was certainly a reasonable model for a 

couple hundred years, because we were more like a utility. This 

side of the business we are talking about on package delivery is extremely competitive and there is no longer any need to regulate it 

as a utility, and we would encourage you to take most of the rules 

and regulations off, let us operate. 

The Board is very cognizant—the way this is set up, we are all 

appointed to represent the public, but we recognize the public is 

lots of things. The business community is part of the public, as 

well. Obviously, the consumers, the residences, the businesses that 

mail is delivered to, or packages. We take all that into account. We 

are not going to go crazy and use monopolistic-type powers to go 

drive somebody out of business. 
29 

Chairman CARPER. The Postal Service is not interested in becoming a bank, is it? 

Mr. BARNETT. No, it is not. 

Chairman CARPER. Are you interested in becoming an insurance 

company? 

Mr. BARNETT. No. There has been nobody on the Board, whatsoever. And, in fact, a great deal of time has been spent over this recent boomlet of being small loan offices or banks or that sort of 

thing, and that is not our core function. We do not think we could 

make any money doing it. And, we think we should focus on the 

future, which is small package delivery. We are looking at other 

things, some I would probably rather not say in an open Committee 

meeting—— 

Chairman CARPER. Fine. 

Mr. BARNETT [continuing]. But, there are certainly things in the 

digital area that we think we can do. But, we have not completed 

the task of getting to monetize something we think could be a very 

valuable service. The Post Office is the most trusted governmental 

agency, based on every study for the past 10 years. 

Chairman CARPER. Does that include the Senate offices of Dr. 

Coburn and myself? 

Mr. BARNETT. I do not know if the survey did, Mr. Chairman. I 

am certain you were higher than we were. I do not know. 

Chairman CARPER. I do not know about that. [Laughter.] 

Mr. BARNETT. But, that is what we would like to get into, if we 

possibly can. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. Let me just mention a couple of other opportunities I think are good ones. A lot of people are going to be 

voting over the next couple of months, especially in Oregon and 

in—— 

Mr. BARNETT. Colorado. 

Chairman CARPER [continuing]. I want to say Washington—— 

Mr. BARNETT. And Colorado, as well. 

Chairman CARPER. Yes. But, now they vote by mail, and they 

have a very good turnout compared to the rest of the country. I 

think it is cost effective. And, as you say, Colorado is now going 

to try it, too. I think that is potentially not just a good piece of 

business for the Postal Service, but, actually, something that could 

be very good for our country as we seek to encourage folks to exercise their Constitutional right, maybe even to save some money in 

doing that. 

I heard, for the first time, I was talking with the Postmaster 

General and the Deputy the other day about if we actually do pass 

comprehensive immigration reform, which I hope we will, I think 

it would actually make the job of defending our borders easier, not 

harder. But, if we end up with a situation where 10 million people 

living in this country need to get some kind of documentation about 

their legal status, they are going to have to get it somewhere, and 

a lot of folks get their passports from the Postal Service and there 

might be an opportunity to find a way for the Postal Service to 

meet this need, if we do pass some kind of comprehensive immigration reform. 

And, I am told that there are actually some centers, one of them 

just outside of L.A., where the Postal Service has, like, a pretty big 
30 

facility for the issuance of passports, and people come in—it almost 

sounds like a Department of Motor Vehicles facility where people 

come in and they get their drivers’ licenses and stuff like that, but 

whole families come in to apply for passports and get good service 

using technology. That is a piece of business, I think, that could be 

pretty good. 

And, you mentioned a couple ideas in the digital world. I am encouraged by all that. 

There are some things that we need to do, and one of those is 

to give you the opportunity, when you have a good idea, when it 

does not tread all over or walk all over other providers of those 

services from, say, the private sector, that we give the chance to 

do that. 

The other thing, though, the 800-pound gorilla in the room on 

the Postal Service, is with respect to health care. My wife just retired from DuPont. She actually retired about 5 years ago, and she 

teaches now full-time at the University of Delaware. But, she has 

just turned 65. She looks about 45, and if you see her, tell her I 

said that, but it is true. [Laughter.] 

But, when she turned 65, the DuPont Company reached out to 

her and said, we love you, Martha, but you are 65 now. You are 

eligible for Medicare. We want you to sign up for Medicare Part A, 

Part B, Part D, and, by the way, we will provide wrap-around coverage, health coverage, for you that fills the gaps, and they do that 

for all the retirees who reach 65. Frankly, so do hundreds, maybe 

thousands, of other companies in America who do that. That is 

what they do, including those that compete with the Postal Service. 

The Postal Service cannot do that. They would like to. As a matter 

of equity, they pay more money into Medicare than any other employer in the country, but they do not get fair value for their 

money. 

So, a big part of helping the Postal Service to right its ship financially is to address this problem, this challenge, and there is a way 

to do that that is, I think, fair and equitable for retirees, for the 

taxpayers, as well, and I think that is a big one for us to take up. 

The other thing I would say is for us—and you have not said this 

directly, but we need—there is an adjutant rate case that has been 

decided by the Postal Regulatory Commission for the short term, 

usually about a 4.3 percent rate hike, and it is temporary. It does 

not last forever. And, what our bill that reported out of Committee, 

Dr. Coburn and I led on, is that that temporary rate increase actually would become the new baseline, the new revenue baseline, 

which we think is appropriate, given all the cuts that the Postal 

Service has made rightsizing your operation. We think that is part 

of what the Congress can and should do. 

If we do all of that and you do your part—I think we are in a 

position to recapitalize the Postal Service. And, as I mentioned 

today, there are 32 ZIP codes, San Francisco groceries being delivered for Amazon, apparently going pretty well. Not all those trucks 

that are being used in those 32 ZIP codes, certainly not all the 

trucks going across the country, whether it is on Sundays in those 

5,500 ZIP codes, whether it is today or any other day of the week, 

they are not rightsized for delivering packages and parcels. And, 

when you are delivering groceries in Phoenix, Arizona, some day, 
31 

and it is 98 degree outside and you are delivering ice cream and 

you have a truck that is 98 degrees warm, I do not know how that 

works as a delivery vehicle. So, some work needs to be done on the 

fleet. 

But, you have 190,000 vehicles, 22 years old, on average. They 

are energy inefficient. They do not have the kind of technology onboard that can enable them to communicate with, literally, with 

their counterparts, much less with their customers, and we can address all of this. 

And, the last thing I would say is, in North Dakota with member 

Heidi Heitkamp, a Member of this Committee, valued Member of 

this Committee, and we visited a mail processing center, and it was 

a fairly small one, but we went into the back of the operation just 

to see how they did it and I remember this one guy carrying 

around these big old boxes and moving them from place to place, 

trying to get the bar code reader on them and then get them ready 

to be shipped out. Part of what we would do if we could recapitalize 

the Postal Service is not just replace the fleet over 3 or 4 years to 

modernize it, we can also modernize the mail handling operation, 

especially with respect to packages and parcels and all of that. 

And, there is some really cool technology we can put on the vehicles and some really cool technology we can put in Post Offices, 

which basically look pretty much like they have looked like for 

years, and provide better service to folks. 

This is definitely glass half-full, and the question is, are we going 

to continue to fill it and enable you to do your share? I sure hope 

that we will. 

The last question I would ask is this. How many people under 

the law can serve at any one time on the Postal Board of Governors? How many people? 

Mr. BARNETT. Nine. 

Chairman CARPER. And, how many people serve on it today? 

Mr. BARNETT. Four. 

Chairman CARPER. And, so, you Chair a Board of Governors that 

has three other Governors, and your term expires, is it sometime 

later this year? 

Mr. BARNETT. December 8. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. So, on December 9, if we do not do something, how many people are serving on the Board on Governors? 

Mr. BARNETT. We will be down to three, and two of those three, 

next year is their last year. 

Chairman CARPER. All right. Not a good situation. 

Mr. BARNETT. It is not, and we really hope you will send us several more. 

Chairman CARPER. Dr. Coburn and I had a hearing here, maybe 

2 months ago—— 

Mr. BARNETT. Right. 

Chairman CARPER [continuing]. With, I think, four nominees 

from the President, several Democrats, I think at least one Republican, and your name, if we can basically act this year, and I fervently hope that we will—I would like to act this week on the 

nominations, but we need to act this year—some of the Democratic 

nominees are probably not greatly favored by some of our Republican colleagues, and the converse of that is true, as well. We need 
32 

to get over that. This is a good, balanced group of nominees, and 

the most important element I have ever seen in any organization 

I have ever been a part of, whether it was in the military, or 

whether it was academia, whether it was in business, whether it 

was here in this operation, athletic teams, leadership is the key. 

Leadership is the key, and we need strong leadership, and that includes the Board of Trustees. 

Mr. BARNETT. Mr. Chairman, in the more than 8 years I have 

been on the Board of Governors, every decision has been by consensus. There has not been any friction on a partisan basis in the 

slightest. We have reached consensus on every issue. 

Chairman CARPER. That is an important point. 

Let me just turn to our staff that are here and see if there are 

any other questions that they would have me ask before we excuse 

you. 

[Pause.] 

The staff members have said they think these are the best three 

witnesses we have ever had. [Laughter.] 

And, they have gone to say, they wish we could clone you all and 

have you serve in other responsibilities across our Federal Government. We are working on cloning at the University of Delaware 

and Delaware State University, it is a partnership, and we will see 

how that turns out. 

Seriously, this has been enjoyable, informative, and, at times, inspiring. We are grateful for what you have already done for our 

country and what you are willing to do going forward. 

The nominees have filed responses to biographical and financial 

questionnaires, answered pre-hearing questions submitted by the 

Committee, and had their financial statements reviewed by the Office of Government Ethics. Without objection, this information will 

be made part of the hearing record, with the exception of the financial data, which are on file and are available for public inspection 

in the Committee offices. 

With that, the hearing record will remain open until noon tomorrow, that is September 18, until 12 p.m., for the submission of 

statements and questions for the record. 

Do any of you have any last words you would like to leave us 

with? We always give you a chance to give an opening statement. 

I also give our witnesses a chance to make a very brief closing 

statement, so this would be your opportunity to get in the last 

word. Ms. Saldan ̃ a. 

Ms. SALDAN ̃ A. Senator, I just am marveling at this process, and 

I have learned a civics lesson today and I truly appreciate your 

consideration of my nomination. Thank you. 

Chairman CARPER. You are nice to say that. Thank you. Mr. 

Deyo. 

Mr. DEYO. I join in those same comments. Thank you very much, 

Mr. Chairman. And, I would like to congratulate the staff members. They have been very easy to work with, but direct, which is 

exactly how it should be. 

Chairman CARPER. Good. I always say, I like to surround myself 

with people smarter than me. My wife says, it is not hard to find 

them. [Laughter.] 

Mr. DEYO. I have heard that myself. 
33 

Chairman CARPER. I will say this. I noticed when you were 

speaking, Mr. Deyo, I was watching your wife’s lips move when you 

spoke. [Laughter.] 

I think after—how many years have you been married? What is 

it? 

Mr. DEYO. Forty-three. 

Chairman CARPER. You two have this down pretty well, so that 

is good. 

Mr. DEYO. Thanks for letting me know. 

Chairman CARPER. Sure. [Laughter.] 

Chairman Barnett, any last word? 

Mr. BARNETT. No, sir. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. All right. With that, this hearing is adjourned and we thank you all so much. 

[Whereupon, at 11:47 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 

(35) 

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Æ