**Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access**

**Realtime Translation (CART) system used in the Rooms and Spaces Subcommittee Meeting #2 and is**  **generally unedited. T** **he CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with**  **hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real -** **time and available to the public on the internet during the meeting.** 

United States Access Board RVAAC Teleconference Rooms and Spaces Subcommittee Meeting #2

Thursday June 19, 2014

>> PAUL BEATTY: Thank you. T his is
-- good afternoon, this is Paul Beatty, welcome to the second meeting of the rooms and spaces subcommittee. As you know since anyone may participate in subcommittee discussions no time for public comment has been scheduled during this two
- hour call. A lthough we may or may not have a CART system chat box available, to allow the operator to
-- of the CART system to perform her duties fo r subcommittee participants only using CART to participate and desire to raise a question or make a statement, we request that you use E
- mail: RVAAC @
access- board.gov. S end your question or statement to that we will monitor that E
- mail address and raise your question or make your statement on the line. Please remember to give your name when speaking, as a reminderthe next meeting of the subcommittee is scheduled for July 17 which is

a Thursday. Let's go with introductions first for those on the line,
would you please introduce yourselves? A nd indicate what organization if any you are representing. >> Chris Hart, public member liaison for (inaudible). >> Uwe Rutenberg, ICAP. >> Marilyn Golden, Disability Rights Education & Defense Fund.
>> Dennis Cannon , National Disability Rights Network. >> MELISSA: Melissa Shurland, FRA.
>> Ken Shiotani, disability rights next work.
>> Billy Altom, Rural independent living. >> Okay. I believe that is everybody currently on the line. I n the room with me is Jim Pecht Melissa Anderson and our CART reporter. I will turn it over to the chair of the subcommittee Dennis Cannon.
>> Dennis: T hank you very much. I hope everybody has the agenda in front of them it's pretty small this time. W e did
-- we talked about the (in audible) and the dining cars so forth last time. N ow, we are going to tackle the issues of what to do with sleeping compartments. A nd toilet and bathing rooms and continue on where we started last time. Let's see, I think that we have
-- yes, we do down at the bottom we have some drawings that are from via rail which is Canadian sleeping compartment, which were given to us by Uwe. I think we have descriptions of them. >> Yep.>> Dennis: Let's see, one of the issues right now is we have two

basic kinds of sleeping cars available
-- actually, there is three because I don't think the single one is around anymore. I remember riding in a sleeper that was basically a one
- person room, you sort of had to squeeze a lot of parallel parking to get your chair in t here and you were facing the seat that converted to sort of a bed and the toilet was behind you. S o, if you wanted to use the toilet you have to open the door, go out in the hall, turn around and face the other direction and so forth. The other compartme nt is one in which the toy
-- the toy let room is a separate room. You enter in straight from the vestibule the aisle goes off to the right and makes a very sharp turn and goes along the outside of the car to get to the other compartment. I t's about 22 i nches I think is the width of that aisle. You can go straight in the door. T he door is wide enough. There is a restroom which is not a very well designed restroom because you have basically do a standing transfer like the old accessible quote unquote ro om that's in the current cars. One of the problems with the room was that if you
-- it had two beds a lower or upper berth if you pulled it out, the catch to make a bed you could no longer turn around inside the room. S o, you were stuck. Even forward fa cing or side facing you went over to the bed and that was the extent of what you had done. N ow the compartment that's being shown in here I will let Uwe describe it I am confused I see the toilet and I see the compartment and it's not clear to me
-- I am assuming that that space on the right is kind of open and has atrapezoid is supposed to be a restroom but I am not sure how the two

relate to each other. Looks like you enter the room through the restroom is that correct? >> That is correct. Can you hea r me? >> Yes.
>> Okay. Yeah, you enter the whole compartment through the rest room, when you see the drawing in front of you and the wheelchair if you take the back of the wheelchair this is the main entrance the door is very
-- two inches wide. I f you l ook at the front end of the wheelchair there is another sliding door. A nd this sliding door leads you, if you look at the figure 2, to the sleeper compartment. W hat you see on figure 2 on the right
- hand side is kind of unfortunately I didn't have a drawi ng that shows all that at the same time. B ut you are going from the restroom to the sliding door into that sleeping compartment. I don't know if that is clear.
>> Okay. >> Dennis: I was a little confused some of the mechanism it looks like in the bigger two looks like that's where the door would be looks like the mechanism
-- I am not sure what all that is. >> Yeah, unfortunately, figure 2 the right side is really not related to the left side. T hese are some drawings in terms of mechanical things. That's really not a top view of what is happening in the restroom. You have to combine the two in one view. As I said, you take the dividing door there, which is in front of figure 1. T hewheelchair goes through the sliding door, and then enters into the

second compartment, which is the sleeper compartment. A nd you see the wheelchair there with a turning radius and the 60
- inch circl e there and then on the lift side of it in figure 2, there would be the bed. What you see here is the couch it's an L shape that doesn't exist anymore. T hat was the original thought. W e converted this into just one bed and one couch along the left wall. So, during the day it's a couch where people can sit on. A nd at night they take the cushions off and the bed kind of falls down over a frame which then brings the bed to a height of about 18 inches so this is about the same height as the seat of the whe elchair. I know these drawings are a bit confusing. I didn't have anything better than this. I hope that more or less you can see what is happening here. >> Okay. T he couch looks like
-- this is Dennis Cannon. T he couch looks like, I am not sure how w ide it is, but I am assuming it makes
-- it's made into a bed it's wider than that; is that correct.
>> That is correct. I think the bed
-- I don't have the exact figure here I think it's about 42 inches wide. >> Dennis: O kay.
>> It's the full length of the wall. >> Dennis: O kay. Comments? >> This is Ken Shiotani. Can I (inaudible) the outer wall of the rail car so I know how you are getting in to the restroom is that the center corridor or is it the end of the car?>> Okay. I f you go back to figure 1
. >> Uh
- huh.
>> If you go back to the far right side where the entrance door is, the entrance door connects directly to the vestibule. T he vestibule is about, I think 46 inches wide. O n each side of the vestibule there is a cassette lift that brings the person in the wheelchair from the platform into the vestibule from the vestibule they go and touch a switch and then the power door slides open and they go into the wash room. Now, from
-- how do I explain this. Let's sate top of the drawing wall is part of the corridor from there on you have to imagine there is about a 17 inch wide core door along the wall of the rail car. T he lower side of the drawing is the out
-- the other outer side wall of the car. S o between what you see here in the drawing, and the outer side of the top wall is about, I think about 16 or 17 inches it's a corridor where people walk along the length of the car. >> Ken: T hat's clearly a narrow corridor for people who are ambulatory.
>> That's correct. T hat's correct. You cannot p ass there with a wheelchair.
>> Ken: O kay.
>> Dennis: T hat's very similar to the way in which the current room is located in the single level Amtrak car right now, which is from the vestibule you go straight in, you go into the compartment and to make
-- to get for other people to get to the other compartment whichis in the rest of the car they have to make a right angle turn a very sharp

one and go down a narrow corridor going along the outside of the car. And that's how you get back to the back.
>> Exactly. Yes. T hat's the same. >> Ken: O r other nonaccessible compartments. >> Right.
>> Ken: I got it I understand.
>> The end of the car is the accessible sleeping compartment the next sleeping compartment is just a regular one they are connected wall to wall.
>> Ken: G ot it.
>> Just for regular passengers.
>> Dennis: I n the double in the bi
- level sleeping cars currently the accessible compartment take up the entire width of the car because it's the end. A nd the passage through the other cars is at t he upper level I am assuming this is for a single level? >> That is correct this is rue berg it's a single level car we don't have bi
- level inter
- city cars. >> This is Marilyn, you are on the drawing or
-- >> Figure one and figure two. >> Okay.
>> Trying t o find out where the corridor is here. >> Ken: T his is Ken I was having trouble figuring out which way the car was oriented now I got it. I understand now.>> How
-- can I? S orry. H ow does
-- does the person using a

wheelchair can turn in that corridor and make a 90
- degree turn and enter the sleeping compartment. T hen the bathroom amenities are immediately to his or her left. A nd but
-- have
-- there is no wall between the wheelchair user and the till let and lav right? T hey need to rotate a bit that 's a fold down grab bar that can get out of the way? >> That's correct right. W hat you see in the shower stall there is a seat there on the right
- hand side is a kind of a folding support bar.
>> Oh, I see that's a shower stall. Yeah okay.
>> Okay? S o, when the person goes from the toilet shower compartment into the sleeping compartment, as you see in figure 1 if you take the front of the wheelchair, the person is
-- the person is facing the sliding door. T hey touch a button and the
-- the do or slides open to a pocket. A nd then they proceed to the sleeping compartment. And it works the other way around as well. I t works the same way also for the main entrance door. T he main entrance door also has an override for the crew in case there is a n emergency, they
-- then they have a key where they can open the main entrance door to the sleeper compartment, and get in there in case it's required. N obody else
can -- can have access to that. >> Dennis Cannon: The important things that we have to do this is different from the current
-- as I said the current Amtrak single
- level cars sleeping compartment the toy let
-- toilet compartment imagine this design but that's a wall along the side of the toilet. You have toenter from the end and it's basica lly a compartment like the old

accessible toilet room where you have to essentially stand and transfer a forward transfer to get on to the toilet in the current Amtrak design. The shower quote unquote is simply you sit on the toilet seat with the lid down in the current Amtrak design. A nd it has a grating floor like this one.
>> Right.
>> Dennis Cannon: B ut it's very difficult for lots of people to make the forward transfer if they can't do a standing transfer. At least in this case you can make a side transfer to the toilet.
>> That's correct yeah. T hat was the idea.
>> And then the shower seat as I recall folds up is that
-- >> That is correct it folds up.
>> and the bar in the center folds up. S o there is a fair amount of space that makes it turn around if you need to get proper position diagonal or side whatever to
-- >> Exactly.
>> -- the toilet itself.
>> We actually specified, also, a shower chair in case somebody wants to transfer from the wheelchair with the mobility aid into the chair that they don't want to use the seat so they can use a shower chair that is kind of waterproof and roll into the area which is the shower
-- you know, location. >> Dennis: A ll right. S o the key issues that we are looking forare: M aneuvering room in the toilet room and the ability to make a

side transfer to the toilet. A nd maneuvering room within the compartment to make sure when the bed is down unlike it is now that one person could actually make a turning circle. N ow, the question
-- I guess we don't have Ed on the line. T he question is: W hat that turning circle needs to be. W e know it's at least 60 inches that's current.
>> That's what we call
-- Rutenberg this figure 2, it's 60 inches. >> Go ahead. >> This is Marilyn. S o, figure 2 is oriented differentl y than figure 1 it shows the bed
-- the upper drawing shows the couch position and the figure 2 shows the bed position at a 90
-degree angle from the first diagram? >> No
-- no you actually
-- you join the two. I f you take the number 2 and you continue num ber 1 on the left side it's a continuation of number 1 to the left side. F rom the part where you see the wheelchair. >> Take figure number 1 and make it a little smaller, and move it straight down and a little bit to the right and put it into that area wh ere there is now a blank area with the trapezoidal
-- >> Exactly. Exactly Dennis. I should have done that. (LAUGHTER). >> Sorry about that. Yeah, you are right. I t's that idea. >> Got that?>> Guys this is Chris. P aul, is there a way that you coul d E
- mail

everything out so that we can really zoom in on it? B ecause it's very (inaudible) and (inaudible). >> I can't
-- I don't know if I could do this right away. >> Chris: I t was more to Paul.
>> Maybe later onion in a day or two I can send you the revised drawing combining the two in the top view that's really what you want to see, yeah. I can do that. >> Chris: J ust for
-- (inaudible) it was a very low resolution.
>> Yeah sure Chris I think that's a good idea.
>> Chris: A nd we need to put it on the Access Board site.
>> Sure. >> This is Marilyn again. A re we saying looking at this as a sort of a model? As a minimum? As -- I don't know. W hat's the context in which we are looking at this design? >> This design
-- these were the kind of first drawings for producing the sleeper. A nd the only difference that
-- because we built the sleeper right now as the first kind of model if you want to call it that. It's more than a prototype. I t's actually the first finishe d product in a rail car which we are planning to test with several people in different mobility devices. S o, what you see here are some of the drawings as I said before in number 2 the only change that was made was the arrangement of the sofa and L shape and that turned into a one
-- you know, single bed along the left wall. W hen you look at the
-- let mejust see if you scroll down I have a couple of pictures there. T rying to

see something that shows more
-- if you look at figure 8, if you scroll down o n the screen, if you look at figure 8, there is a picture it shows the wheelchair in front of the bed. >> That's the bed opened up.
>> Exactly. T hat's the bed opened up. A nd converts during the day or whenever the person wants into a sofa. A nd then figu re 9 you can actually
-- I tried to compare the seat height with the bed height because we found this was one of the most important things when you are trying to transfer from mobility aid to the bed that you have to have the same height. >> Well, if you could teach the hotels a thing or two for sure. (LAUGHTER).
>> And what you see in figure 10 and figure 11 is a table that is attached under neither
-- underneath the frame of the sofa and it has different positions that you can find of swivel it around
. You can also change the height. A nd it can be used from the seated position at the sofa or from the wheelchair position in front of the table or on the side. So, that's, you know, you could have two persons conversing across the table or beside the ta ble or in a perpendicular way any position that they want. >> Chris: This is Chris. I s this for two people or is there a bed up above as well.
>> It has an upper bunk as well. A nd there is a small, what youcall, stairs or ladder that brings it up to th e upper bed. >> Chris: O kay.
>> It has
-- Marilyn. I t has a window apparently I see in figure 11.
>> It has a very large window. I f you look at figure 8 you will see it a little bit. I t's an oversized window so the whole sleeping compartment has a wind ow the length of the compartment. >> Great.
>> So when somebody sits at the sofa or works at the table they have daylight and they have a screen on the window a shade, so the shade comes down you can either take a completely shaded or just partially shaded whatever the person prefers.
>> Chris: O kay. W hen you look at this module is this
-- with the room and pardon me bathroom together? H ow long is this module? >> the whole length of both compartments? >> Yeah.
>> I would not feel
-- >> Dennis: I think t here is some measurements which I cannot read. >> Yes, I am looking at the there is 58 inches plus 34 or 56, that's kind of 90
- plus. W e don't know.
>> Chris: Yeah. I mean we -- when we get the high resolution version
-- >> When you combine the two drawi ngs and I sent by E
- mail I tried to give you that.>> Chris: Yeah, because ultimately, you know, what I know
-- part

of what I know Blair would ask is how
-- how much larger is this compared to what we have got now. >> Under the regular
-- regular sleeper ? >> Chris: N o to compare this layout to current (inaudible) layout for Amtrak. You know, we know this thing is, I don't know, 5 meters by 1 and a half meters and the end cap one is 4 meters by 1 and a half, at least we can begin to compare apples to app les.
>> Are you saying that Amtrak is 4 meters? >> Chris: N o, I don't know what it is. B ut I know that Blair is going to want to compare
-- >> I will ask Blair because I don't have that dimension at my hand either. B ut, yeah, I will g ive you that information as well. >> What we need
-- Blair will be able to tell us what
-- I mean clearly it's going to take up more room than the current. W e know that the current one is too small. You cannot turn around in the compartment with the bed down. S o, it's very important that we
-- I think the principles that we are looking for are we want a restroom that allows for a turning circle. A nd that gets you a side approach to
-- and we want a sleeping compartment in which the turning circle exists even when the bed is down. >> Correct.
>> Given those two parameters that is basically what we are looking for. I see this drawing as an example I am sure people couldplay with a variety of different kinds of configurations and come up with

different id eas but here we have an example of how you could actually make those two things happen. A nd whether this is the ideal configuration or whether somebody else would come up with another one I am not concerned about, we will let the car manufacturers deal wi th that. O ur goal is to make sure that we have the concept down which is the maneuverability within the compartment. W e will let the designers worry about how they will make that happen.
>> This is really what it's meant for it's only an example and I
me ntioned before. As you clearly indicate, Dennis, there are probably many other configurations depending on the layout of other cars that are, you know, equally accessible if you consider the parameters that you just mentioned there. I would maybe add to what you just said the bed height. W e found that in many cases, they provide what they call accessible sleeper, and the bed height varies by 10 to 12 inches mostly higher than the wheelchair seat height. T hat for most people in the wheelchair makes a very difficult to transfer to the bed.
>> Dennis: T hat I would say is an important issue. A nother important issue carrying over from the earlier discussions has to do with the table which is as we used in the building facilities, the top of the table is a m aximum of 34, and the under side has a minimum clearance of 29. M aybe Ed wants to adjust the numbers somewhat but that gives you a limited thickness of the table as it were. O ne of the things that is problematic with the current Amtrak design is that the foldingtable is solo if you are sitting in the wheelchair you can't possibly get

your fees underneath it to use it actually as a table. A nd so you are sitting
-- fur sitting in the wheelchair as opposed to sitting on the couch, you are sort of the tryin g to eat or do anything you are kind of leaning over, you know, and trying to eat in a moving car is bad enough. (LAUGHTER). >> Right.
>> Dennis: F orget about peeing. >> Chris: That's what
-- >> (inaudible).
>> Chris: I think you guys have already s poken about the table size. A nd I think Blair also said the table size it currently exists simply doesn't work as a table. I t's a very (inaudible). O ne thing that you have to understand is (inaudible) for crashworthiness. I s that much stiffer than U.S. standards? >> Yes, think
-- yes I think that's a big issue. W e don't have the same regulations as Canada I know in the U.S. you have to deal with the crashworthiness at the table yes I didn't realize that.
>> Dennis: T his is Dennis, the table
-- the picture of the table looks like maybe would be problematic from FRA standpoint. D o we have FRA person here Melissa is here. >> Yes, I am on the line. >> Dennis: You see the picture on the table in figure 10 and 11? >> Yes, I am looking at that and we just h ave a requirement thatthe table have to take the 8G loading and four Gs laterally and

vertically. S o that is the requirement we would have. Even though this seems to be a movable table there are ways that you can design it to be crashworthy. >> Okay.
>> Dennis: I think that's true but this particular design probably as it stands wouldn't.
>> Melissa: P robably it would not. >> Dennis: O kay.
>> This is frank isn't there is standard with injury criteria maybe that's what you are talking about if you want to meet the APTA standard you have to have crush elements so it meets the criteria for injuries. >> Melissa: I f the committee likes I can get that standard out them to the Access Board folks for dissemination.
>> Frank: A re you familiar with that Dennis ? >> Dennis: S omewhat. I am not sure we as a committee and writing recommendations would necessarily have to know that. T hat's the designers that have to figure out how to do that standard.
>> Frank: T he only thing that applies if you have 6 inches all ocated for the height of the table there if that is enough to allow to you put some crash elements in there. A nd I don't think that there is not but it's the attachment that's going to be the problem.
>> Yes, that's what looks to me like
-- the other prin ciple issue is theone of course we wanted to make sure that the door is latchable and

that it can in fact be opened by trained personnel in an emergency. The other critical thing is figure 12 we have to have controls for everything within a reachable lim it. T hat means that the upper or lower lights and all of that. You could have dual controls so you can have controls for the upper lights at the upper bunk which is fine as long as there are also controls duplicate controls in an accessible position. >> What we also did is we incorporated all of the speakers for the
-- because there is a television set if you are sitting on the sofa and you look straight out there is a television built into the wall. A nd the speakers are built in to the sofa headrest so that you can get a better sound quality out of it, and the right direction. T his is not a major problem but just con
-- just convenience. >> Chris: I s there that (inaudible). >> Sorry what? >> Chris: I s there back massage, as well? (LAUGHTER). >> I think this is an extra package that you have to pay for. (LAUGHTER). >> Right. A nd the hot tub goes into the compartment next to it. (LAUGHTER). >> Impressive levels of amenities if you think the control situation meets with what Dennis was sayin g?>> The control as you see here in figure 12 are right beside the

beds. I am not very happy with the design as they are. I t's kind of a commercial product I think that they found. I found the you know the buttons and the description not quite good. T hey are kind of
-- it's not a great solution. As you see here for instance on the top they put the rail labels, on each side so that people can read the Braille that they can find it. B ut the
-- the design of the buttons I think needs much better detaili ng than what it is now. At least what they found so far is that all of the controls are within easy reach from the bed or from the sofa. >> That's good. Yeah, you have to add high contrast and some of the other stuff.
>> Exactly.
>> As you know in commercial products especially in low quantity numbers, you cannot always go to the best design. S o you have to make compromise. >> Dennis: T his is Dennis we are going to assume that there is the communication subcommittee which is going to deal with all of th e little ins and outs of controls and operating mechanisms and that will be incorporated in whatever controls are operating.
>> That will be perfect. Yes, exactly. A ny suggestions from what they can bring up that would be very welcome. B ecause, as I
men tioned before, this was kind of a first unit that was built. A nd you know I am trying to plan but different person using different mobility aids I think out of this testing will probably come quite a number ofthings that can still be improved within the design that we have right

now. >> This is (inaudible)

-- >> Go ahead.
>> Is this like a module the way the American view liner Amtrak view liner cars or is this just sort of built into a particular sleeping car? >> This is built into a when they call a dom e car it's one end of a particular car it will always be at the same position in the same car. It's not a module that can be transferred easily into another car. >> Pardon? >> It's not a module.
>> No. >> Ken: O kay.
>> at least until now. I haven't heard any plans otherwise.
>> Dennis: T he issue that we are looking for is mainly that
-- that we have concepts that we need to adhere to, and as I see it the issue of this particular drawing is that it is possible to actually meet those requirements. A nd he re is an example. I f you are a designer and you want to use that as your model, that's fine. I f you want to work to try to make a better model as long as it incorporates all of the things that we are concerned about that's fine too. I n terms of the guid elines we want to set the minimum criteria for what we have to have inside that compartment. A nd let people work in the ways that they can get
-- >> Yes, there are other things that I haven't mentioned here.When you are in the shower stall, all of the c ontrols, the soap dispenser

and the controls for the water, they are all
-- we all placed them within easy reach when you are sitting down on the seat there. O r if you have a shower chair you don't have to reach up or down it's within easy reach from the seated position. >> Dennis: T his is Dennis is there a curtain or something between the first basin and the shower area.
>> Yes, the curtain goes if you look from the left
- hand side turns around and just over where the support arm is on the right
- hand side
. >> Okay.
>> There is a fold down arm beside the shower seat. I t's just on the right of it before the toilet, so, that you know when somebody takes a shower, it's not you know wetting the area where the toilet is located. >> Okay. A nd the floor is a grating; is that correct? >> Right. A nd I am not 100% happy with what it is right now. It's kind of a wooden floor that has pretty big opening like a square inch of an opening and I am looking for another way of finding another material that does the same thing. B ecause when you are turning around as you know, when you are front wheels of the wheelchair go from a flat surface to the grated surface, that's the not the best way of doing things. B ut at the moment it's the only material that they found. S o, we are looking for something that has the same kind of qualities but is better for the
-- you know the wheels the front wheels of the wheelchair to negotiate the surface.>> This is Jim. You might want to look into pool deck matting. >> That's what it's c alled pool deck matting.
>> There are products for pool decks they are mats and they are little grating.
>> That would be great. D o you have any info on that. >> Just Google it is the easy way to find it.
>> Pool mat, yeah.
>> Thank you.
>> Jim: W hat you got looks like duck boards here.
>> They are wooden boards out of cedar so that they don't, you know, rot. B ut we know this is not a very good solution.
>> Jim: I t's really hard to tell from the picture but is there some sort of a
-- looks like a curb o r something that is you can roll over? >> Well, there is a threshold as you can see between the shower and toilet compartment where the wheelchair is located at the moment. A nd it's about a half inch lift but it's a soft lip to prevent the water from runn ing into this area.
>> Jim: I t depresses when the chair rolls over it? >> Correct. >> Dennis: O kay. W e have other things we need to deal with in this issue? >> Jim: D ennis if I could jump in a minute and talk about drawings? As far as you guys sending us drawings to look at or to disburse, obviously send them to us we will get it out to people andmake sure they are accessible. T he kind of drawings that I can sort of

deal with is I can
-- we can sort of do PDFs they are hard to deal with you have to convert them cut and paste you lose resolution badly on those. I can do things auto CAD anything that you can put into photo shop. P robably Adobe illustrator any of those formats I can deal with as far as resolution. A uto CAD is easier I can dimension th ose. I f you could get those to us we will make sure that they have the ALT tags and all of that good stuff before we send them out. >> PAUL BEATTY: This is Paul I am going to jump on the latest theme if you send us photos and materials sends us who owns it, if you own it fine tell us that, second permissions of use if it's free to anybody you own it it's free no restrictions you need to tell us that. I f you
are -- if you are borrowing from someone else they give you permission. If you look at example little statements were added concerning the ownership and the use. S o, that's very critical now. J ust don't send us something without thinking that through otherwise we spend a good amount of time going back and forth nailing down a simple statement. Than k you. >> Dennis: Toilet and bathing rooms we have an example of a toilet room now a bathing room in a standard nonsleeper car inter
- city car we are not going to have a shower. W e assume you take your shower before you get on the commuter train in the mo rning we hope. But we are looking for a restroom design which has, again, the ability to get a side transfer to the toilet, and a turning circle within the toiletroom itself. A nd then all of the things and grab bars and whatever.

And we don't have at l east here we don't have a picture of or a drawing of the Acela restroom which I happen to like. I have seen some others ones we may have sent pictures of other designs. I t's hard to tell exactly what we are like without dimensions on them. H e said photographs. S o, what do we need to say about the toilet rooms on a nonsleeper car? Other than what I said about the turning circle and controls and what not. A nybody? >> Dennis this is Uwe. You mentioned the Acela wash room is there a space for transfer if somebody needs an assisted transfer? >> Dennis: Actually I think there is enough room for somebody to get in there.
>> Uwe: O kay. >> Dennis: I know some work was done several years ago by Paralyzed Veterans of America PVA on a single aisle aircraft or double aisle aircraft toilet which indicated space for an assistant to help you in the transfer and independent transfer. I think the drawings and whatever are available with D. O. T. I don't happen to have them handy. They went through issues with how m uch room you needed for a secondary. P erson. The Acela is pretty big I suspect I think there is probably enough room I haven't tested it out. I know that I can get into it with my power chair and turn around and get to all of the amenities. T he thing t hat I don't like is the fact that the door latches in the corner and you have to really
-- your footrests are in the waywhen you are try to go get close to that. T hat's one of the things that I

said before about changing the controls and operating mechan isms so any operating mechanisms are a minimum of 12 inches from the inside
corner. I think that the door ought to be powered but that's me. And the Acela works. A nd there are some that I have seen photographs of that probably work as well. B ut it's ha rd to tell a little bit without some dimensions. >> Yeah, this is Uwe. I saw many so of the wash rooms the European trains and the icy train you call them, I think, and they have a full circle. 6 0
- inch circle inside. A nd some of them, depending where th ey are built in the UK Spain or Germany, at least they have one side clear of the toilet where you can transfer. A nd some in some cases you can transfer parallel to the toilet or perpendicular depends on the design but at least there is always one positio n where you have somebody who can transfer you from the front and we found we did some research in this area and we found that it takes about, with a person in front of the wheelchair lifting the person in the wheelchair over to the toilet. I t requires ab out 32 inches of width and I think about 60 inches in length if you take the end of the wheelchair to where the transfer person is standing. T hat's just kind of a rough measure. >> Dennis: R ight. T he Acela allows you to get to a full side transfer which is the most common transfer design at least in this country. As you pull your chair up beside the toilet, and make a side transfer the only down side is you have to pick a side right? M osttoilet rooms some people want that
-- want to have a side transfer from

both sides so that they can use which ever is their good side unfortunately that's not likely to happen.
>> No.
>> Dennis: B ut if you pull the chair up besides the toilet there is plenty of room in front of it or an attendant to help you get acros s side ways from the side transfer. T here is room to turn around inside the room and part of that overlapping room is also room beside the toilet, and the lav on the other side, then, there is a bar in the Acela there is a grab bar that wasn't around the front of the lav that curves. A nd that bar the grab bar is also beings tends all the way back to the side of the toilet. S o that provides you with a good side device that you can use to pull yourself across. A nd I believe there is a grab bar behind the toilet too. T hey don't have a movable folding whatever. >> Support.
>> Dennis: S upport from the side. T hat's been sort of a sticking point here in the U.S. for a long time about the problem with those things in terms of your
-- one's ability to put them into place and keep them there and have them locked into place and still be able to
-- the ones I have seen when I was in Amsterdam was pretty hard to lift up or down. I f I hadn't been able to stand and lift them and reach them I don't think I could have used them. >> Yeah, right. There are some designs that require quite a lot of strength to pull them up. T here are designs they are using in seniorhomes and health facilities that are better designed and they have a

kind of assisted
-- I don't know w hether it's a spring loaded stuff in there or something like that that allows the arm to easily go up and down. >> Dennis: W hat else do we need to say about this folks? >> Dennis, I'm sorry this is
-- >> Chris: G o ahead. >> Go ahead Chris. >> Chris: G o ahead. >> Frank: T his is Frank I was trying to catch up with you I came to the conversation a little bit late. I know we are going through this but are you trying to define the new footprint for the toilet that's going to be designed? O r are you just scoping right now? >> Dennis: W e are trying to develop what the specific technical idea
-- you know the limitations, minimum requirements and so forth in a design, and, again, the idea is that you have the turning circle inside the room and the ability to m ake a side transfer. I n other words, you get your wheelchair up to the side of the toilet on one side. A nd that the controls be available, the sink and controls for the water and the
-- limitations in terms of height and reach range and grab bars at least on one side. The concept is maybe if we can get reliable fold down grab bar for the other side. S o, right now it's the issue of trying to make sure that we get the parameters or the minimums that we need to get
-- to get the designers to then figure ou t how to put all of these pieces together. I am suggesting that the Acela has done a fairlygood job of that in my opinion. A nd there are problem other designs

and configurations too. >> Ken: T his is Ken, I sent out to folks, I think last time pictures, unfortunately, without any measurements because I don't travel with a tape measure. B ut I think that the Talgo cars in the Amtrak northwest allow a side transfer. They are pretty roomy. A nd I think that they had a power door but I won't swear that is a power door. I t slid. A nd I think it was powered. B ut, again, I was observing taking snapshots that I wasn't like surveying so I didn't take any notes. B ut I do have photos and I am happy to share them if anybody wants to just see how they are configured. B ut I don't have measurements. >> Frank: T his is Frank again I follow what you are saying Dennis. You have a turning circle you need to define. T he question is how do you define of the rest of the space that you need for maneuvering is there anythi ng from Ed's research that could be helpful in this area.
>> This is Marilyn. T here are all kinds of things. T here is what you -- there are all kinds of things. T here are what you need to make a turn and reach ranges. W e need Ed. Couldn't one
-- I thi nk from the disabilities community perspective I mean I would go through the stand
-- I would go through the ADAAG and look at all of the general elements that the different sections would require you have in a bathroom, and you know, hopefully they are co mbinable and overlappable and things like that. A nd Ed's research will provide new dimensions for some of them. S ome of them the same. As now.But, you no
-- but you know we can brainstorm them all. I think

somebody would want to look through and make sure we have everything. >> Frank: I s there some reason you wouldn't want to use the human scale information? D ennis, can you think of a reason why you wouldn't want to use that? >> Dennis: I am not sure that the human scale things are upgraded. F or t he most part they haven't taken into account disability issues. A nd one of the things that Ed is trying to do Ed Steinfeld is trying to do in his research is essentially augment those kinds of things to say -- reframe them so forthwith people with limb mo untained arm strength and one of the issues is reaching forward you have your feet sticking out in front of you there is differences of reach how high you can reach controls and what not. T hose have been incorporated in the ADA, ABA accessibility guidelin es and not so much in the vehicle guidelines before because we didn't have a lot of these specifications for controls and operating mechanisms. T he
-- I don't know whether Access Board has decided to do something different. B ut the way in which the
-- do ing the NPRM for thees we
-- for the buses we left them open. B ut the control mechanisms would be a standard set. T he way the guideline works is it will say you shall have at least one restroom and controls and operating mechanism shall comply with, and then you cite the section it complies with. A nd all of those things in that section that controls and operates takes into account all of theissues. T hose are the things that we hope will be educated by Ed's

new research. B ecause it takes into considera tion some things which were not done in the original research way back when. As I say the human scale 1, 2, 3 for the most part doesn't take into account disability issues. T hat's what Ed's does. >> Well, we have sort of talked about technical profession s what about scoping if we are done with the technical issues. T hat's maybe the tricky part. B ecause you are not going to have a sleeping car with 10 accessible rooms in it. You are not going to have four restrooms in a car that are accessible and so fo rth. S o the scoping issues is maybe in some cases the trickier issue. Typically there is in an Amtrak car two restrooms. You will want two per car for whatever, you know commuter room and so forth. M y experience in traveling on a regular Amtrak car whi ch has the old nonaccessible but accessible restroom is that when you are traveling long distances and there are people with children they always use the accessible restroom. B ecause they can take kids into them instead of leaving them in the seat or they can change diapers or whatever in the bathroom. W e find the accessible room is actually quite popular. B ut Amtrak wants to have an additional restroom in the Acela train there are two, one accessible restroom and right on the back of it is essentially a phone booth that accommodates people who aren't going to need the accessible restroom. S o, I am not concerned about that issue I am concerned that we have at least one, the way I scoping works in the current vehicleregulations it says there shall be at least one door on each car on each

side from which passengers board that is accessible that is the requirements. T hat there is an accessible restroom adjacent to or as close as practical to that door or doors. A nd that there is an accessible pathway from that restroom and from that door into the area where the wheelchair sit and there are two spaces for wheelchairs and two transfer seats and places to store wheelchairs. A nd that's the way it's currently written. T here is no requirement to be able to tra verse the aisle of the train car you get all the way down to the other end those two doors on the other end of the car aren't required currently to be accessible. A nd the primary reason for that is the inner
- city rail car is that unlike a Metro car or lig ht rail where you run it for a very short period of time inner
- city car you may want to stay you will be traveling for long distances you want the seats to be more comfortable they are more like aircraft seat than rap bid rail seat which means they are bigger. T he aisle isn't necessarily narrower if you require accessible route to traverse the entire length of the car so you can get to the other end. T hen you loose some of that you probably lose significant seating. P robably have instead of 2 by 2 you ha ve 2 by 1 perhaps. So, those are the issues that need to be addressed. T he other issue is how many sleeping compartments have to be accessible within a rail
car. A nd the other issue we are dealing with in another part is what do you do about Vertical Ac cess in a bi
- level car. W hat are people's thoughts about those requirements.>> I thought the Vertical Access is being handled by other

subcommittees. S o that's already being handled. >> It's a difficult issue. T his is Uwe. T his is a difficult issue we have not found a solution for yet.
>> All right. >> Uwe: D ennis, you mentioned two wheelchair positions per car that is regulation now or is it
-- has it been applied? B ecause the
-- >> Dennis: T he current statutory requirement says at least one but not more than two per car. A nd the debate for
-- for inner
- city rail
-- I mean for Amtrak
-- excuse me, rapid rail, light rail the minimum is two. >> Okay.
>> Dennis: T he current requirement is at least one no more than two that's a statutory one because w hen the discussions were originally being made there was some desire on the part of commuter rail and inner
- city rail but mostly commuter to make a single car accessible within the
-- that was viewed by the disability community as a cattle car approach tha t was rejected. T he statutory language specifically says you can't have more than two. B ut you can have just one. A nd so the problem that we have identified is, from the disability community, is there are frequently two people that want to travel togeth er. A nd currently they may not be able to. Alot of
-- there are a lot of cases where in the Acela there is one power
-- you know one space for wheelchair in the car, period. A nd two people want to travel together,they can't sit in the same car. S o, t he suggestion that I made early on

and this is not one that has been identified yet was we should make it two instead of saying one but no more than two just make it two and make it two all away across the board that's an issue for discussion. >> Uwe: T ha t's very interesting we have the same discussions here in Canada. A nd the consensus more or less is make it two positions in the accessible car because as you mentioned very often a couple or friends or just two people in wheelchairs are traveling. S o, i t's really becoming something that is
-- the same thing is happening in buses in urban buses. A ll of our burr urban because
-- urban buses have two wheelchair positions why not make it in the train as well. >> That's my opinion. >> This is Marilyn. W e -- we --you know, so, you know it's so easy to have hindsight. The forced dispersion taken out of the cattle car problem or 24, 25 or 23 whatever years ago. We certainly don't want a cattle car but we have had all kinds of problems with groups wanting to rid e together and Amtrak charging them a lot of money and also not having a sense that it has to accommodate them in the same car or even in groups bigger than two anywhere. W hich is perhaps a legitimate literal reading of the ADA. But it really seems like we could do better. A nd have we really
-- had we been able to have
-- you can't have a crystal ball and know what problems are going to happen down the road. B ut there have been some discussion of whether our legal folks can explore not havingto -- keep w illing in
-- keeping in with the spirit of the original goal

without having
-- without having it have the limiting impact inadvertently it's having.
>> This is Melissa Anderson. I wanted to redirect you guys back to the topic of your committee the circula tion and seating committee is a different committee. A nd I know a lot of you are involved in both that's perfectly fine but this call is really to talk about rooms and spaces. >> We have veered from our
-- (LAUGHTER). >> If you had your whole task on and wanted to move on we would combine the calls we are not there yet.
>> There are overlapping issues.
>> Scoping you know to a certain degree affects seating and interior circulation. I mean, you know they are tied together a little bit but
-- >> I agree -- >> Additional seats is really more in the interior, the seating and interior circulation subcommittee.
>> Right. This is Dennis. T he scoping I was talking about was how many restrooms we are going to have per car and how many accessible compartments that's our issue. I s it anybody's contention that we should have more than one accessible compartment per car and more than one accessible restroom per car? >> When you say accessible compartment you mean sleeper?>> Yeah.
>> Right. I was talking to yo u about seating so it's not
-- it was off topic, so sorry. >> Chris: This is Chris, I believe way back at least some point you were discussing about (inaudible) sleepers and whether (inaudible) bathrooms which are typically on the first level I believe. Do we need to look at any of those bathrooms as a usability someone who is older but not necessarily reserve the quote unquote accessible group might benefit from (inaudible) design in the smaller bathrooms. I s my memory correct there? >> Dennis: I am not quite sure what you mean do you mean on the sleeper car and the restrooms for the other
-- >> Chris: Yes, I forget two or three toilets and you have got two showers. A nd I believe way way back when the committee was as a whole issues I believe somebody raised an issue do you want to talk about those facilities that are more ambulatory. B ut obviously there are people (inaudible). >> Dennis: O kay. T he current idea is that the accessible room has its own toilet room inside it. >> Chris: That's for sure but I think it was Blair that had
-- he said people don't want to go upstairs because the bathrooms are on the downstairs level, and so (inaudible) the question is: D o we want to begin to think about those ambulatory restrooms, do we want to call out thi ngs like that, things like ambulatory bathrooms?>> Dennis: I t seems to me that grab bars a good idea everywhere.
>> And especially on a moving train.
>> Dennis: I n a moving train for anybody it would seem to me that grab bars would be desirable to have anywhere even in the restroom that's not the quote accessible one. >> Chris: A nd we would all agree with that the issue is the guideline standards do not require it. >> Do we have jurisdiction? >> Dennis: W ell we can make any recommendations we want. Th e question is whether they end up with a regulation is somebody else's job. B ut if the committee feels that that is a recommendation that it wants to make by all means let's make it. >> Frank: D ennis this is Frank again to address the scoping issue the s coping issues for restrooms it's a separate one for the sleeping compartment. J ust to deal with restrooms for a second here the way it's written I believe now at least in the CFR if a restroom is provided for the general public you have to have an accessi ble one. T hey can both be the same restroom they don't have be two separate ones. S o, in that regard, I think that's good it stays the way it is. A nd
-- >> The two separate ones the fact that there was a requirement or rather a claim early on by appear track when we were negotiating this way back, Amtrak said it was adamant it had to have
-- there had to be two restrooms per car period.
>> That's up to them.>> Dennis: T hat was their requirement. O ne of them have to be

accessible but not two of them th at's fine if you want another
-- but the debate felt because of the accessible restroom is much bigger it limited space for everything else. You took up seating space and so forth. That I am not concerned about. You are right the issue is if facilities are provided for the general public there has to be accessible restroom because you don't have restrooms on rapid rail cars and so forth for the general public there is no requirement for accessible restroom on any (inaudible) customer normally has the restroom facilities period.
>> Right. That's what I agree with.
>> Dennis: S o the question is: I s that stuff? I
-- is that sufficient? A ll we say is one restroom where it is provided for the general public one at least one has to be accessible that's the current scope. I s there any idea that we need to change that? >> No think so.
>> I don't think so. >> Dennis: O kay. S o, now, sleeping compartments. W e have one per car currently. I t's on the first level (inaudible). You are not likely to get 2. S o then the question is, is there any
-- do people think there need to be two? D o people think
-- do people think that's unreasonable or what. O ne of the issues is how many people travel. And whether there is a need for or demand for more than one. I don' t know what the answer to that is. >> Chris: W ell, Dennis, this is Chris. O ne of the things that Ithink Blair and (inaudible) as Amtrak finally becomes accessible, it

becomes a much more viable transportation option, whereas, right now, I don't want to call myself or you crazy, but we want
-- we are one of that number of folks who do overnight trips and Amtrak has
-- >> I don't think we can predict. F irst of all these will be updated, we are updating the standards now we will increase the space requirem ents, which is going to go back to a whole variety of things. I don't know that we can predict whether ridership is going to increase substantially. R emember, also, we are talking about a
-- there is more one car more than one sleeping compartment. I t's true we don't have the design for a sleeping compartment for the two wheelchairs. A nd I am not sure that we are likely to ever get that at this point. T here is an upper bunk so you have an attend dant or family member you can get two people in the room. We are not I don't believe ever have thought about the issue of what about two people in wheelchairs. I n the same room. I don't think we have ever gotten to that point I am not sure that we are likely to get it
-- again, one of the issues has to be
con sidered in our, we can make recommendations whatever recommendations that we want. I n the end, the board will transform the recommendations into reg
- babble that goes out to public comment and out to the Office of Management and Budget and cost analysis
re quired by the board. A nd if OMB decides it's not justified on the cost basis it has the authority to tell the board to take it out. S o, I don't think we likely will ever get more than one accessible sleepingcompartment in the car. >> Dennis this is Uwe. Why can't we do something similar to what is happening with the (inaudible) position that you recommend at least one accessible sleeper compartment in a sleeping car. A nd because I think it's very unlikely that you can have two accessible sleeper compartments in the same car. J ust technically, I think that's problem very, very difficult. B ut you might have, let's say you have two or three sleeper cars you might have each sleeper car one accessible compartment how you write it up in the regs I really do n't know. Could you say you have to have at least in a train consists one accessible sleeper car compartment and maximum two?
>> The way it's currently written every
-- >> (inaudible). >> Yeah the way it's written now every new car, again, all of the guid elines apply only to new cars. T hey don't apply to existing. Every new car sleeper has to have at least one accessible compartment. That's the current regulation. >> Is it written
-- >> There was a different requirement early on about seating that had t o do with the requirement to have a certain number of seats per consist and that was an interim requirement that that has long since pasted. R ight now every car every new car has to have
-- every new sleeper car has to have one compartment that's accessib le.
>> Okay, thank you.>> Ken: D ennis, is it written as have to have one or is it written as

must have at least one? I just don't remember.
>> Dennis: I don't either my recollection it says one but at it could be at least it doesn't make a difference i n terms of what you actually get.
>> Chris: Technically it's going to be difficult to do more than one per car. I t's
-- I won't say a waste of time but folks agree it's difficult to try to think about two per car. T his is
-- >> Dennis: T here is nothing inherently wrong with say ago
-- with saying at least one so you give the opportunity for somebody to figure out how to do it that's fine. T here is no problem with doing that. >> Chris: Tell you figure out a way to (inaudible) and everything else goes going on the lower level of a superliner cab, then you can probably get another
-- another room in a superliner lower level. B ut all of that stuff has to fit somewhere.
>> Dennis: R ight. A nd the water storage and the sewage containers all of that on the bottom level for obvious reasons. (LAUGHTER). >> Dennis: T he restrooms are on the lower level because the accessible compartment has accessible restroom it's always on the lower level. T his is a separate issue. M y recollection maybe knows the answer to this, dining cars do not have restrooms; is that correct? >> Chris: That is not correct.
>> It's not. N o.>> It ties to the cafe car
-- >> Think seeing that the bi
- level dining cars.
>> the bi
- level dining cars to at least
-- (inaudible). B ut I beli eve Blair said that they worked on a version for a restroom in the upper level for dining. >> Okay. Let me find it out. B ut at this point every coach car is going to have at least one accessible restroom. W hatever restrooms are available for the public. And a lounge car which is bi
- level lounge car is going to have restroom on the lower level at minimum. A nd then we have to think about whether there is going to be a restroom on the upper level of the dining car. >> Dennis I was reading the CFR accessib le restrooms are required only when one is provided for other passengers. I t's just like the regular restrooms if there is a restroom it has to be accessible or another accessible has to be provided. S o, I don't know if you have to get so specific about upper level lower level. I guess in all likelihood it will happen on the lower level if that's where the cafe or dining level. >> Folks, this is Lisa, for purpose of these discussions the bi
- level dining there is statutory car guide for them they are off the table. Even if there is a regular restroom in a bye level dining car the law would not require an accessible restroom in the bye level dining car.
>> As currently written. >> That's in current law. >> Isn't it written it's not required? I t's sort of a differencebetween the seating. The seating is no more than, you know, no less

than 1 no more than two. B ut I think the requirements for the dining car shall not be required but not prohibited.
>> You are correct that's correct. >> We are writing regul ations
-- >> This is (inaudible). >> You are saying this is Marilyn you are saying there is currently no required access to the dining car. >> Bi
- level dining cars no access no requirement for seating, no requirement to fold and store or secure. >> That's all statutory.
>> That's statutory right. As you point out Ken
-- >> (inaudible). >> This is only for bi
- level dining cars it's not apply to bi
- level lounge cars as Ken points out that is only a limitation on what can be required. You can always provide it. >> Jim: D ennis, this is Jim getting back to the sleeping car, the language says at least one compartment. >> That's statutory language. >> Regulation language in the regulation currently.
>> Okay. T hank you.
>> And the other subcommittee, which is working on circulation is trying to develop a kind of a performance standard which would have a box essentially that required to be maneuvering through and throughthe
-- through and into the area if you work into that you don't

necessarily have to specify specific numbers for the turning circle, whatever, all you have to do is say shall be usable or can be prototype or the design configuration, whatever, can or must be able to maneuver within that space. S o, you essentially don't have to put in some numbers but we will see how it works out from the circulation. So, that sounds like
-- like the scoping is one at least one. Both
-- we are going to use the current toilet room in terms if you provide it facilities for the general public at least one shall be a ccessible and use the criteria the technical criteria that we already set out earlier today and the same is going to be for the sleeping compartments. A re there any other issues that we need to work on? >> Jim: D ennis are you going to require that the to ilet bathing room be part of the sleeper compartment? A re you going to allow that to be separate? >> Dennis: T hat's a good question. W e have always assumed that they were together because that's the way it works. Let's see.
>> I thought they had to be together.
>> Dennis: T hat's always
-- I am trying to think about
-- I don't think that's actually specified anywhere. T hat's always been the case. The accessible sleeping compartment has always had an internal toilet of some sort, but in terms of the actual regulation
-- >> It's in there I am reading it now Dennis. E ach accessible sleeping compartment shall contain a restroom complying with 123 (A)so it's a requirement.
>> Okay. >> Dennis: W e don't want people having to go out into the hallway and tra verse -- >> And regular sleeper compartments the shower and facilities are within the room. You don't have to go out in the corridor as you say. >> It's currently covered for inter
- city it specifically says toe. >> I won't swear to this but I think the ne w Amtrak view liners sleepers being built are going to have common restrooms and common showers. I read that, I think, and I think I am remembering it right.
>> That would be against this rule. >> No, no, no I mean for the nonaccessible ones. >> for the n onaccessible.
>> for everything else.
>> My recollection at least of the bi
- level sleeper that I spent time in going to Philadelphia was it was a common restroom for everybody else in that car had to come downstairs to the restroom which happened to be rig ht adjacent to my compartment and it didn't have an exhaust fan at least it didn't come on immediately which was a problem.
>> Oh, gosh. (LAUGHTER). >> Chris: A nd, again, this is why I was trying to clarify whether folks wanted to address a common re stroom outside of a quoteunquote accessible room restroom. >> Dennis: M y recommendation would be we already said grab bars are probably a good idea that we should recommend grab bars whether it turns out to be a requirement in the regulation from the Access Board saying we should say the nonaccessible restroom shall have restrooms I would say shall have an exhaust fan. (LAUGHTER). >> Dennis: T hat comes on automatically. (LAUGHTER). >> Chris: You know, Dennis that might be some FRA requirement fo r it. (LAUGHTER). >> Dennis: O kay. W hat else do we need to deal with? W e may actually end early huh? S ubcommittee homework Uwe was going to get us some drawings or fix some drawings of the via rail system, and I think that was basically the only th ing that we are looking at is that right? >> I will provide the drawings and the measurements as far as I can find them. A nd compare them with Amtrak. I don't have access to the am fracture
-- the Amtrak dimensions but I will ask Blair if he can probably provide them.
>> Dennis: I had asked before somebody, I can't remember, at Amtrak a long time ago, whether the drawings for the Bombardier restroom in the Acela were proprietary. I believe I was told that theywere. B ut then I was later, I believe, tol d by somebody else no they

could make them available to us because Amtrak held them. You might ask Blair if you talk to him. >> Chris: A nd I believe you guys had also asked for their California bathroom layout, or Dallas Ft. Worth commuter rail, this is bigger than the Acela. >> Dennis: I s that the California car you mean? >> Chris: Yes, the Dallas Ft. Worth and I want to say almost haven't got these
-- >> We should be able to get Amtrak to have the California cars. I don't believe we have any contact with Dallas Ft. Worth. >> Chris: I will make a call. Again, (inaudible) they didn't come in. O ne of the reasons why we formed a committee is, and we put folks on (inaudible) on the committee is to help share and help show you all and all of us what is o ut there today. >> This is Melissa Anderson I am not going to send this out but if everybody looks on the Amtrak website under the superliner sleeping cars they have very nice virtual tours of the rooms and there are virtual tours of the accessible rooms w ith the restroom and it does have the car dimension or the room dimensions which are 6 foot 9 inches and 9 foot 5 inches. >> 6 foot 9 by 9 foot 5. I t has some really nice pictures of the accessible room and the toilet area and other rooms in the car too. >> That's helpful, thank you.>> Okay. S o that's part of the homework assignment is everybody

should look at that. >> Okay, will do. >> Jim: D ennis, getting back to basic requirements like turning circle and getting next to the toilet did you want to tal k about stuff with regards to maneuvering clearances at doors? >> Dennis: A h good questions maneuvering clearances at doors ADA requirements refer to nonpower doors. At least, you are right, we didn't actually specify this in the Via Rail we are talking about power operated doors. A nd I would like to suggest that that should be a requirement and it also should be a requirement in the accessible restroom. A nybody have an objection to that? S o then the only thing that applies is the position of the controls. S o that you could actually get to them. B ut the doors are power doors. A nybody? >> Agreed.
>> Sounds good. >> Chris: I think, Dennis, given what is available all over the world, I would think that from a cost benefit basis, this should not be too painful. S ince almost every vehicle already does it.
>> Dennis: Typically the door from the compartment into the vestibule for eons has been a power door. >> Jim: D ennis, I realize most of the pictures we are looking at are sliders power sliders don't h ave this issue. B ut we really haven't specified that they have to be sliders as well if they are power operatedswinging doors I think you want to put in a requirement that you need

30 by 48 or whatever clear floor space outside of the swing of the door d epending on which way it opens. >> That would be automatic wouldn't it? >> Jim: N ot if you don't spell it out.
>> You push the button you don't want the door to come up and hit you, you have to have a space that you can get out of the way of the door sw ing. I think it's clear from the con fined areas and what not in the rail car that you are not going to have swing doors there is just too much
-- there is too little space that you can play with. T he door in the current Amtrak single level sleeper into the toilet room is swing. A nd it's problematic in some respects to get that open and to get it closed again because it
-- I guess it's a spring closer. I don't remember but
-- >> Dennis, did you say there were door operating requirements already in the g uidelines I didn't see them.
>> There are door operating
-- again, I don't know how the board is going to deal with this, but in the vehicle requirements for the buses, we were originally putting everything all in one regulation. A nd so, in the proposed r ule for buses, the new ones, there is a controls and operating mechanisms section, so the idea was if you put the rail vehicle in that same regulation, you would refer back to that section. If the board decided it's going to go into a separate regulation for the rail cars then it needs to take those provisions or whatever they modified provisions that are currently in the proposed bus rule and alsoput them into the rail vehicle part.
>> Okay. You are saying the proposed rules listed on the website is the baseline for what we considered for rail cars. >> In with some modifications. I don't know what the
-- the proposed update for buses and vans
-- buses and vans has been massaged since it's been put out as a proposal. I don't know what the final is going to look like. B ut the concept is you have a section that refers to the close and operating mechanisms that talks about pressure, height, how you operate controls like the latches on doors and so forth. And all of those things need to be included. N ow, we may want to modify the numbers to some extent depending on what comes out from Ed Steinfeld's research. B ut the basic idea is should be the same. >> Because I am looking online now I am not seeing that section
on -- >> Updated guidelines for buses and vans? >> Jim: You are talking at cross purposes there is no current requirement in the current standard for power doors. >> Right. I n the current standard for vehicles we don't have a lot of specifications for lots of things that we need to put in.
>> Ri ght.
>> And one other thing one other thing is basically I need to say that final rules never ever look exactly like a proposed rule. >> This is Marilyn: They are generally weaker. T hey are rarely stronger.>> Chris: N o comment. >> (inaudible). >> No offense, I don't think the board's ever are.
>> Chris: N o comment there. I won't be offended, with that said, I always ask to do it because FRA civil rights is on the call today, the grantees were reminded by D. O. T. about a particular element not covered in the regulations for
-- like, controls the cafe in the Acela that they need to refer back to ADAAG. A nd so, (inaudible) no longer call, and looking only at (inaudible) and it's not in here. Again, D. O. T. is clear that folks need to watch out for tha t for the ADA standards. >> Dennis: T hat has been sort of a general operating rule but there is nothing that says they have to do that. >> Chris: D ennis, there was a very clear (inaudible) posted somewhere on the site to
-- >> Dennis: D . O. T. issued a bunch of advisory things in the ADA but they don't necessarily have the same force. S o -- >> Chris: I guess we could have a legal discussion over beer but essentially the issue was to address (inaudible) or conveniently overlooked by Amtrak. B ecause the regs are not quote unquote saying it.
>> The issues that we need to include controls and operating mechanisms and knee and toe clearance and things like that in all of the parts of this, if it's included in all one regulation, you got some reference secti ons already and if it's going to be separate regulationsyou need to make sure that those are included. A nybody else? W e

are at 2:52. I think we have come to the end. A nybody else got anything that they want to raise? >> Good meeting. >> Dennis: T hank you. I s that it? W ell, all right.
>> Chris: Thank you all. >> Dennis: T hank you.
>> Uwe: T hank you very much Dennis it was a good meeting.
>> Dennis: O kay. A nd we will talk again at the next one. >> Uwe: You should July 17th? >> Dennis: Yes I t hink
-- >> PAUL BEATTY: July 17th is the next one.
>> I put it in the agenda. >> PAUL BEATTY: This is Paul Beatty this concludes the conference call. O perator, you can shut this down. (End of meeting)