### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1**  **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **FRAMEWORK FOR RESIDENTIAL BOILERS + + + + +**  **PUBLIC MEETING + + + + +**  **WEDNESDAY MARCH 13, 2013** 

**+ + + + + The Public Meeting met in Room 8E**  **089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:47 a.m., Doug Brookman,**  **Meeting Facilitator, presiding. PRESENT**  **DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public Solutions, Inc.**  **ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Department of Energy JOHN CYMBALSKY, Department of Energy**  **ERIC STAS, Department of Energy**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2**  **ALSO PRESENT JOHN BUSSE, U.S. Boiler Company, Inc.**  **ADAM DARLINGTON, Navigant Consulting ROSS DILLON, Lawrence Berkeley National**  **Laboratory JEFF KLEISS, Lochinvar, LLC**  **ALEX LEKOV, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory**  **JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness Project**  **CATHERINE RIVEST, Navigant Consulting HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an Energy**  **-Efficient Economy FRANK STANONIK, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and**  **Refrigeration Institute PHILLIP STEPHENS, Heat Transfer Products, Inc.**  **MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense Council**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3**  **TABLE OF CONTENTS Welcome, Introductions and Agenda Review 4**  **Introduction, Opening Remarks from Interested Parties, Regulatory History, and**  **Rulemaking Overview 5 Determination of Scope and Test Procedures 16**  **Market Assessment and Screening Analysis 30 Technology Assessment 36**  **Screening Analysis 44 Engineering Analysis 49**  **Markup Analysis and Energy Use Analysis 58 Energy Use Analysis 58**  **Life-cycle Costs and Payback Period Analysis 81** 

**Shipments Analysis and National Impact Analysis 99**  **Consumer Subgroup Analysis 107 Manufacturer Impact Analysis 109**  **Emissions Analysis; Utility Impact Analysis; Employment Impact**  **Analysis; Regulatory Impact Analysis 114** 

**Other Issues and Comments; Closing Remarks 119**  **Adjourn**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  

### 2 **9:47 a.m.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: So as we resume,** 

### 4 **this is a separate meeting that is -- this is** 

### 5 **a meeting that is a continuation, but we have** 

### 6 **a separate transcript. This will be like** 

### 7 **starting a new meeting.** 

### 8 **Good morning again and welcome to** 

### 9 **the U.S. Department of Energy's public meeting** 

### 10 **on Boilers and Energy Conservation Standards** 

### 11 **for Residential Boilers. Today is Wednesday,** 

### 12 **March 13, 2013 here in the Forrestal Building** 

### 13 **at the Department of Energy.** 

### 14 **My name is Doug Brookman from** 

### 15 **Public Solutions. We've already done** 

### 16 **introductions around the room. I think that** 

### 17 **you are the only one who didn't get a chance** 

### 18 **to introduce yourself. Do you want to say** 

### 19 **your name, please?** 

### 20 **MR. BUSSE: John Busse, U.S.** 

### 21 **Boiler Company. I was in the back at the** 

### 22 **time.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks. We're**  

### 2 **going to start off this morning with welcoming** 

### 3 **remarks and perhaps move straight into the** 

### 4 **content with John Cymbalsky.** 

### 5 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Sure. Thanks,** 

### 6 **Doug. Hi, I'm John Cymbalsky. As I mentioned** 

### 7 **earlier, I am the program manager for Codes** 

### 8 **and Standards and I'm doing double duty today.** 

### 9 **I'm also the acting product manager for** 

### 10 **Residential Boilers, a product I have very** 

### 11 **limited knowledge about, but actually had one** 

### 12 **in my house growing up in New York, so I do** 

### 13 **know a little bit about them.** 

### 14 **We're going to try to go quickly** 

### 15 **through some of these introductory slides** 

### 16 **because they were covered --** 

### 17 **MR. SACHS: John, excuse me, was** 

### 18 **that a one-pipe steam boiler?** 

### 19 **(Laughter.)** 

### 20 **MR. CYMBALSKY: No, no, it wasn't.** 

### 21 **It was very, very warm though. Kept the** 

### 22 **house very warm.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1 Okay, so these are the**  

### 2 **housekeeping items. I don't think we need to** 

### 3 **go through these again, so I'm just going to** 

### 4 **skip right to the content.** 

### 5 **For those of you on the webcast,** 

### 6 **welcome, thank you for joining us via the web.** 

### 7 **Hopefully, the audio problems that we've been** 

### 8 **experiencing intermittently will have gone** 

### 9 **away for this part of the presentation.** 

### 10 **Again, written comments are always** 

### 11 **helpful to the Department. I know we all want** 

### 12 **to make oral statements as well, but if you** 

### 13 **can back that up with written comments, that** 

### 14 **will help us in drafting the next phase of the** 

### 15 **rule here.** 

### 16 **The purpose of this public meeting** 

### 17 **today is to present the framework document for** 

### 18 **residential boilers. We invite comments on** 

### 19 **all aspects of this framework document. And** 

### 20 **again, submit any data information in writing** 

### 21 **to the Department.** 

### 22 **Throughout the presentation,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 you'll see these yellow comment boxes. At**  

### 2 **that time we will open the floor and request** 

### 3 **comment on the issues that we feel most** 

### 4 **important in the framework document. Deadline** 

### 5 **for submitting comments for the framework is** 

### 6 **March 28, 2013.** 

### 7 **At this time, I'll open the floor** 

### 8 **for any opening remarks on the boilers** 

### 9 **framework document.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik.** 

### 11 **MR. STANONIK: Well, I'm not sure** 

### 12 **it's an opening remark as much as maybe a** 

### 13 **general question. The framework document,** 

### 14 **let's say, certainly follows a well** 

### 15 **established pattern that DOE has been using** 

### 16 **now for some years to do standard rulemakings.** 

### 17 **And we did have a residential boiler standard** 

### 18 **rulemaking that was finalized in 2007,** 

### 19 **subsequently changed because of legislation,** 

### 20 **but it was finalized in 2007. And without** 

### 21 **having the exact date, there was an analysis** 

### 22 **of residential boiler standards, let's say,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1 around 2004 or so.**  

### 2 **On the one hand, okay, that's** 

### 3 **eight, nine years later. But on the other** 

### 4 **hand, certain aspects of residential boilers** 

### 5 **are still there. So I guess my question is I** 

### 6 **understand the need to fully detail what the** 

### 7 **framework document with the analysis we'll** 

### 8 **look at, but the question is will DOE in doing** 

### 9 **this, will they, where appropriate, will they** 

### 10 **be using any of the information that was** 

### 11 **developed and considered back in previous** 

### 12 **ones?** 

### 13 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Sure. John** 

### 14 **Cymbalsky, DOE. Yes, we'll try to leverage as** 

### 15 **much as possible on past analyses. And as you** 

### 16 **mentioned, we're nine years past some of the** 

### 17 **work that's been done in the past. So to the** 

### 18 **extent we need to refresh any information, any** 

### 19 **data in the analysis, obviously we want the** 

### 20 **latest data that everybody has to make the** 

### 21 **analysis as current as possible.** 

### 22 **MR. STANONIK: Just to explain,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1 the reason it's important to us is because**  

### 2 **some of us actually still have those TSDs. In** 

### 3 **some cases, I'll remark by simply saying okay,** 

### 4 **you know, in the previous analysis you ruled** 

### 5 **out certain technologies and we may encourage** 

### 6 **you to do that again or whatever.** 

### 7 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.** 

### 8 **MR. STANONIK: It's nice. We will** 

### 9 **refer to it where we can and where it's** 

### 10 **appropriate. Thank you.** 

### 11 **MR. CYMBALSKY: We'd appreciate** 

### 12 **that. Thank you, Frank.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Frank.** 

### 14 **Yes, Harvey Sachs.** 

### 15 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 16 **I guess I respect Frank's thoughts and the** 

### 17 **efforts to minimize the burden on DOE, but we** 

### 18 **have had a couple of reasonably significant** 

### 19 **developments in the boiler field since the** 

### 20 **last analysis was done. And I'd point out,** 

### 21 **too, one of them is we really need to** 

### 22 **understand what people have done to implement**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 the controls required by the legislation and**  

### 2 **their economic impact, both on the cost side** 

### 3 **for manufacturers and consumers and on the** 

### 4 **energy saving side.** 

### 5 **And the second thing is, I recall** 

### 6 **no prior rulemaking or technical support** 

### 7 **document that explicitly included comparison** 

### 8 **with technologies that might be widely used** 

### 9 **outside the United States and reduced to** 

### 10 **practice. And since that legislation, we've** 

### 11 **seen activity such as the mandatory use of** 

### 12 **condensing boilers at least in England and I** 

### 13 **think all of Great Britain and they're** 

### 14 **certainly widespread in other parts of** 

### 15 **northern Europe. And to ignore that** 

### 16 **manufacturing and use experience would be to** 

### 17 **deprive American consumers of some important** 

### 18 **work that's been done and may be relevant for** 

### 19 **our own rulemaking. Thank you.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 21 **MR. SACHS: I'd love to hear** 

### 22 **comments from DOE in terms of the commitment**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 that the TSD will reflect a little bit of**  

### 2 **international analysis this time. Hint, hint.** 

### 3 **MR. CYMBALSKY: We love data.** 

### 4 **MR. SACHS: This is important.** 

### 5 **MS. ARMSTRONG: No, I know. I** 

### 6 **understand.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Harvey.** 

### 8 **MR. CYMBALSKY: We love data from** 

### 9 **all over the world, Harvey. And certainly, we** 

### 10 **will look at any data that we can get our** 

### 11 **hands on, but obviously, anything that's** 

### 12 **unique to installation of boilers in the** 

### 13 **United States, will be dealt with in the rule** 

### 14 **as well.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: So then we'll** 

### 16 **proceed with the content.** 

### 17 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, regulatory** 

### 18 **history. Adam went through this slide in the** 

### 19 **earlier part of the presentation, so I won't** 

### 20 **spend too much time on it. EPCA 1975, NAECA** 

### 21 **1987, then EISA 2007 came along, set some** 

### 22 **requirements for boilers. This rulemaking is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 in accordance with the six-year look back**  

### 2 **provisions of EISA, so that's why we've** 

### 3 **undertaken this rulemaking.** 

### 4 **EISA 2007 codified in the Federal** 

### 5 **Register in July of 2008, set the minimum** 

### 6 **efficiency standards as presented on this** 

### 7 **table. Several different product classes** 

### 8 **here, but you can see the AFUEs range from 80** 

### 9 **for gas steam, up to 84 for oil hot water, and** 

### 10 **then a couple of design requirements sprinkled** 

### 11 **in based on the product class.** 

### 12 **Now the rulemaking overview.** 

### 13 **Here's our schedule that we have for** 

### 14 **presenting today for the boilers rulemaking** 

### 15 **and so today, we're here at the framework** 

### 16 **presentation, March of 2013. Our next step** 

### 17 **will be a preliminary analysis, hopefully by** 

### 18 **the end of this year. And then after that we** 

### 19 **will put a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking out** 

### 20 **for comment, hopefully next summer of 2014.** 

### 21 **And then the Final Rule in the summer of 2015,** 

### 22 **and then the five years for compliance with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 the new set of standards, so July 2020.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs.** 

### 3 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 4 **As we're reviewing the chart on Slide 12, a** 

### 5 **question for general counsel. Legislation,** 

### 6 **we've referred to overturned an opinion by OGC** 

### 7 **that DOE could not require both the** 

### 8 **prescriptive and a performance standard, that** 

### 9 **is things like no standing pilot is** 

### 10 **prescriptive plus an AFUE.** 

### 11 **Is that opinion allowing both** 

### 12 **prescriptive and performance parameters going** 

### 13 **to be taken as binding on DOE going forward?** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Eric Stas.** 

### 15 **MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE. I** 

### 16 **assume you're talking about the latest AEMTCA** 

### 17 **legislation, amendments to EPCA and whatever** 

### 18 **is in the statute we will follow the statutory** 

### 19 **-- the new statutory mandates.** 

### 20 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, I wasn't** 

### 21 **particularly referring to it and I'm** 

### 22 **embarrassed to say I haven't read that, but I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 appreciate the commitment.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. I see** 

### 3 **Frank Stanonik.** 

### 4 **MR. STANONIK: Yes, I'm sorry,** 

### 5 **Frank Stanonik. Eric, I'm going to need a** 

### 6 **plain English answer. I think what Harvey was** 

### 7 **referring to is that there was legislation --** 

### 8 **I mean what we see here as far as the** 

### 9 **automatic means and no pilot was, in fact,** 

### 10 **mandated by Congress. As Harvey mentions, it** 

### 11 **includes a combination of performance and** 

### 12 **prescriptive. And my understanding of** 

### 13 **Harvey's question is will this rulemaking** 

### 14 **consider both performance and prescriptive** 

### 15 **improvement? Because the previous DOE** 

### 16 **position which we had experience with was that** 

### 17 **DOE was restrained in the case of residential** 

### 18 **products from establishing prescriptive** 

### 19 **requirements.** 

### 20 **MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE. I'm** 

### 21 **trying to remember what was in the most recent** 

### 22 **AEMTCA legislation and then EPCA. I think the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 design requirement discussion what I was**  

### 2 **thinking of is regarding ASHRAE products. So** 

### 3 **I'm not so sure it directly addressed this** 

### 4 **issue on the residential side. But I think** 

### 5 **it's fair to say that where Congress has -- in** 

### 6 **past instances where Congress has set design** 

### 7 **requirements and DOE subsequently updated the** 

### 8 **energy efficiency side, that the statutory** 

### 9 **design requirements have been kept in place.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Meg.** 

### 11 **MS. WALTNER: To follow on on** 

### 12 **that, is the Department's opinion that you** 

### 13 **have the authority to set additional design** 

### 14 **requirements or would just the existing design** 

### 15 **requirements stay in place? If you don't have** 

### 16 **an answer for that, that's okay.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Eric Stas.** 

### 18 **MR. STAS: We'd love your comments** 

### 19 **on that.** 

### 20 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. This is** 

### 21 **a critical issue. It was first raised by GAMA** 

### 22 **early on in pointing out that there were a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 number of significant ways to save substantial**  

### 2 **amounts of energy that were not and could not** 

### 3 **be reflected in the AFUE rating method.** 

### 4 **And that these attributes** 

### 5 **reflected as prescriptive requirements were** 

### 6 **potentially of great importance to the country** 

### 7 **in a number of ways, lessening the burden on** 

### 8 **manufacturers to invest in technology was one** 

### 9 **of those. And I think it would be important** 

### 10 **to everyone in the room and in fact, it's** 

### 11 **referred to in the document handed out today** 

### 12 **that we not close that opportunity because** 

### 13 **that's where a lot of the potential for energy** 

### 14 **savings is.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, I think we've** 

### 16 **got it now.** 

### 17 **MR. SACHS: I'll put my hammer** 

### 18 **back in its holster. Thank you.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky.** 

### 20 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So that brings us** 

### 21 **to the slide on the EPCA seven factors. So in** 

### 22 **each of our standards rulemakings we consider**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 the EPCA seven factors in our DOE analysis.**  

### 2 **And so I won't read through all of them, but** 

### 3 **you can see that over the course of the** 

### 4 **rulemaking, DOE will conduct a series of** 

### 5 **analyses to address the EPCA seven factors and** 

### 6 **these range from impacts on the environment to** 

### 7 **energy savings costs, manufacturer costs,** 

### 8 **consumer savings and the like.** 

### 9 **And with that, I'm going to turn** 

### 10 **it over to Adam for the test procedure and** 

### 11 **scope discussion.** 

### 12 **MR. DARLINGTON: All right, so** 

### 13 **hello again. Adam Darlington, Navigant** 

### 14 **Consulting. I guess I'll just quickly go over** 

### 15 **this slide. We touched on a lot of it earlier** 

### 16 **this morning. But basically to reiterate the** 

### 17 **federal test procedure at Appendix N is** 

### 18 **largely based on ASHRAE Standard 103-1993.** 

### 19 **ASHRAE Standard 103-1993 accounts for the** 

### 20 **active, standby, and off mode fossil fuel** 

### 21 **energy consumption, but does not account for** 

### 22 **the standby and off mode electrical**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 consumption and as I noted this morning, there**  

### 2 **were some updates within the past couple of** 

### 3 **years to adopt IEC 62301 standard for the** 

### 4 **electrical consumption.** 

### 5 **And then more recently on January** 

### 6 **4, 2013, DOE published a request for** 

### 7 **information seeking comments on all aspects of** 

### 8 **the test procedure and why this is important** 

### 9 **for the standards rulemaking is because our** 

### 10 **standards obviously use the efficiency metric** 

### 11 **that comes out of the test procedure. So when** 

### 12 **we're analyzing amended AFUE, obviously we're** 

### 13 **looking at what AFUE picks up. And so it's** 

### 14 **very important for us to sort of tie that in** 

### 15 **with the test procedure rulemaking.** 

### 16 **And then for -- most recently on** 

### 17 **February 4th, DOE published the NOPR which we** 

### 18 **just discussed this morning to fix the two** 

### 19 **equations.** 

### 20 **And so moving on, we'll get into** 

### 21 **the definitions and a little bit about the** 

### 22 **scope of coverage. So residential boilers are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 defined in EPCA. EPCA does contain a**  

### 2 **definition. It's contained within the** 

### 3 **definition of residential furnace. Basically,** 

### 4 **the key points of this definition that's on** 

### 5 **the slide here are that there's single-phase** 

### 6 **electric products, sorry, they can only use** 

### 7 **single-phase electric current or single-phase** 

### 8 **current in conjunction with natural gas,** 

### 9 **propane, or home heating oil. And that they** 

### 10 **are limited to a heat input rate of less than** 

### 11 **300,000 BTU per hour.** 

### 12 **And the statute, I believe,** 

### 13 **specifically calls out that electric boilers** 

### 14 **and low-pressure steam or hot water boilers** 

### 15 **are considered a residential boiler and DOE** 

### 16 **has further defined these terms in 10 CFR** 

### 17 **430.2 in DOE's definition. And these** 

### 18 **definitions are here on the slide for you to** 

### 19 **review.** 

### 20 **And so these definitions basically** 

### 21 **define what will be covered in the rulemaking,** 

### 22 **DOE's scope of authority to cover residential**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 boilers. So DOE's plans to cover all**  

### 2 **residential boilers within the scope of those** 

### 3 **definitions on the previous slide and as the** 

### 4 **slide that John presented showed earlier, the** 

### 5 **amendments and Energy Independence and** 

### 6 **Security Act of 2007 included standards for** 

### 7 **six product classes of residential boilers.** 

### 8 **So the product classes are broken** 

### 9 **down based on the fuel type, whether it's gas** 

### 10 **fired, oil-fired, or electric. And the** 

### 11 **heating medium, whether it's hot water or** 

### 12 **steam. And so tentatively, DOE is proposing** 

### 13 **to continue to utilize those six product class** 

### 14 **designations and I would just note here that** 

### 15 **DOE in the framework tentatively has, based on** 

### 16 **a preliminary review, determined that the** 

### 17 **analysis of amended AFUE standards would focus** 

### 18 **on the gas and oil-fired products and not** 

### 19 **include the electric boilers, just because** 

### 20 **there's limited AFUE improvement potential for** 

### 21 **electric boilers. And again, that's based on** 

### 22 **a preliminary review.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 And DOE would look at standby and off mode**  

### 2 **standards for all six of these product** 

### 3 **classes.** 

### 4 **And then the last bullet here on** 

### 5 **the slide talks about combination appliances** 

### 6 **and so DOE at this time doesn't have any kind** 

### 7 **of separate product class or separate** 

### 8 **designation for a combination appliance, but** 

### 9 **depending as this rulemaking progresses, as** 

### 10 **the test procedure rulemaking progresses, may** 

### 11 **consider specifically defining combination** 

### 12 **appliances.** 

### 13 **That brings us to a number of** 

### 14 **issues that we'd like comment on. And so the** 

### 15 **first issue here we're looking for comment on** 

### 16 **the scope generally, you know, what's been** 

### 17 **presented on the past couple of slides about** 

### 18 **the types of boilers that we're planning to** 

### 19 **include in this analysis.** 

### 20 **Item 2 here specifically seeks** 

### 21 **input about combination appliances. And then** 

### 22 **item 5-2 asks for comment about the proposed**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 product classes, whether there are any**  

### 2 **capacity of performance-related features that** 

### 3 **may necessitate the creation of a new product** 

### 4 **class. And the last item, 5-3, asks basically** 

### 5 **about, you know, maybe any of these product** 

### 6 **classes that are more niche products where** 

### 7 **shipment volumes may be sufficiently low that** 

### 8 **they wouldn't warrant more stringent standards** 

### 9 **or analysis.** 

### 10 **With that, I'll turn it over to** 

### 11 **Doug.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs.** 

### 13 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 14 **I could be wrong, but it seems to me that** 

### 15 **there is a regulatory gap for two emerging** 

### 16 **products. I don't know whether the Department** 

### 17 **wants to do more than take note about it. But** 

### 18 **it seems to me that both on the air source and** 

### 19 **the ground source heat pump sides, we have** 

### 20 **units that are air to refrigerant to water and** 

### 21 **ground to refrigerant, ground to water to** 

### 22 **refrigerant to water. So they're supporting**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 systems whose function is quite analogous to**  

### 2 **that supported by advanced boilers.** 

### 3 **I think that a ground source** 

### 4 **procedure is en route. The air source may be** 

### 5 **more difficult since that seems to becoming** 

### 6 **more as part of integrated appliances, but it** 

### 7 **would seem worthwhile for the Department to** 

### 8 **start thinking about how to develop standards** 

### 9 **that will provide consumers with information** 

### 10 **to compare expected energy use of those** 

### 11 **products with the products covered by this** 

### 12 **rulemaking.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have any** 

### 14 **data on shipments on those products?** 

### 15 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs** 

### 16 **again. This is why I stressed their status as** 

### 17 **emerging products. Certainly, the integrated** 

### 18 **variable refrigerant flow units are very small** 

### 19 **shipments in the U.S. We're seeing much more** 

### 20 **interest on the ground source side in products** 

### 21 **whose heat distribution product is water** 

### 22 **rather than air, particularly for sub-slab**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 just for slab-based and other radiant heating**  

### 2 **systems which are becoming important in the** 

### 3 **Northeast. And at that point it's directly** 

### 4 **competing with a condensing propane or natural** 

### 5 **gas boiler. So it is, I believe, relevant for** 

### 6 **the consideration of the Department where such** 

### 7 **products should be treated to minimize** 

### 8 **industry burden and maximize utility. I'm not** 

### 9 **sure -- I really can't, I think, advertise the** 

### 10 **efficiency descriptor for this product today.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik.** 

### 12 **No? Sorry.** 

### 13 **MR. STANONIK: Nothing at this** 

### 14 **time.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: You can see the** 

### 16 **comment box, comments on scope of coverage,** 

### 17 **combination appliances, proposed product** 

### 18 **classes, and niche products that may not be** 

### 19 **included.** 

### 20 **Frank Stanonik.** 

### 21 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 22 **AHRI. I do have one question. And it's just**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 because I'm sure I read it and I forgot. Are**  

### 2 **you asking here for comments about including** 

### 3 **combination appliances in this rulemaking and** 

### 4 **then we also have the test procedure** 

### 5 **rulemaking going on? Which one is going to be** 

### 6 **finished first, looking at the schedule at the** 

### 7 **moment?** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley.** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: The test** 

### 10 **procedure. This is Ashley.** 

### 11 **MR. STANONIK: Okay, so --** 

### 12 **MS. ARMSTRONG: The test procedure** 

### 13 **will come first.** 

### 14 **MR. STANONIK: My memory says --** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: This analysis** 

### 16 **would be based on any amendments in that** 

### 17 **rulemaking coming out. But yes, we are asking** 

### 18 **for not just variable refrigerant flow** 

### 19 **systems, but all combination appliances and** 

### 20 **their integration into this rule or otherwise.** 

### 21 **MR. STANONIK: Then we will** 

### 22 **address the question in test procedures.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley,**  

### 2 **and that's fine. I think the RFI period has** 

### 3 **closed for the test procedure. That's** 

### 4 **correct, right? So I don't know if you** 

### 5 **addressed it previously, but it would be good** 

### 6 **to address it as part of this rule as well,** 

### 7 **even if you just echo a point to that.** 

### 8 **Thanks.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Phillip and then** 

### 10 **back to Jeff. Go ahead.** 

### 11 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens.** 

### 12 **I would just like to go on the record that HTP** 

### 13 **encourages and supports the use of combination** 

### 14 **appliances.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: And do you want to** 

### 16 **be more specific than that?** 

### 17 **MR. STEPHENS: Sure.** 

### 18 **Specifically, water heaters, heating medium,** 

### 19 **heat pump technology and the combination** 

### 20 **thereof solar thermal also.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 22 **Jeff.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 MR. KLEISS: Thank you. Jeff**  

### 2 **Kleiss, Lochinvar. In response sort of to** 

### 3 **what Harvey was saying, currently, we do have** 

### 4 **electric boilers that are categorized and the** 

### 5 **heat pumps would probably come into a similar** 

### 6 **situation where there is really not a good** 

### 7 **comparative AFUE measurement. And if we do** 

### 8 **move forward with that it needs to be** 

### 9 **something that takes into account the losses** 

### 10 **in power generation of generating the** 

### 11 **electrical power, transmitting the electrical** 

### 12 **power in order to make a more fair comparison** 

### 13 **for the actual cost of operation of the** 

### 14 **appliance if we move forward on that.** 

### 15 **Second thing related to the** 

### 16 **combination boilers, we would support the idea** 

### 17 **of them being created as possibly a unique** 

### 18 **class of products for consideration. But the** 

### 19 **way that things are currently written out in** 

### 20 **the proposed** 

### 21 **rulemaking document, we support DOE's approach** 

### 22 **of getting a federal test procedure that is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 specific for those products before creating**  

### 2 **them as a unique class with special** 

### 3 **consideration.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 5 **Phillip.** 

### 6 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, Phillip** 

### 7 **Stephens. To further Jeff's comment,** 

### 8 **currently only the ASHRAE 124 that I'm aware** 

### 9 **of does support the combined AFUE. This does** 

### 10 **have limits. It is recognized and the** 

### 11 **Committee has recently slightly modified the** 

### 12 **scope to address some of these. But there are** 

### 13 **large gaps we recognize.** 

### 14 **I did a rotation as one of the** 

### 15 **board of director members for the SRCC and I** 

### 16 **can say quite honestly that the DOE has** 

### 17 **withdrawn a lot of the funding. It's been** 

### 18 **reorganized into a different stream basically.** 

### 19 **And the solar thermal industry is suffering** 

### 20 **because of it. And to have some other type of** 

### 21 **recognition for the solar thermal industry** 

### 22 **would be very welcome.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.**  

### 2 **I'm looking at the requests in the comment** 

### 3 **boxes. It seems like we've just touched** 

### 4 **lightly on scope of coverage. We've had a** 

### 5 **couple of comments on combination. What about** 

### 6 **the product classes and what about small or** 

### 7 **niche products?** 

### 8 **No additional comments? Harvey** 

### 9 **Sachs.** 

### 10 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. There** 

### 11 **does seem to be a little bit of ambiguity. I** 

### 12 **just want to try to clarify my intent to** 

### 13 **differentiate between call it inherently** 

### 14 **limited niche products. An example might be** 

### 15 **the small diameter high velocity air** 

### 16 **conditioners that the Department has treated** 

### 17 **versus emerging technologies which have the** 

### 18 **potential to be a significant component of the** 

### 19 **industry. And although their shipments may be** 

### 20 **small, it's worth thinking about rating** 

### 21 **methods that will not handicap their** 

### 22 **acceptance. And I think that's the gist of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1 what my colleagues in industry have been**  

### 2 **trying to emphasize as well.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Frank.** 

### 4 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 5 **AHRI. Yes, on this question of are there some** 

### 6 **product classes that maybe should not be** 

### 7 **analyzed, I think certainly leveraging the** 

### 8 **market for residential steam boilers by no** 

### 9 **means has grown and that certainly might be an** 

### 10 **area where there is no need to expend** 

### 11 **significant resources to analyze a product** 

### 12 **that is clearly a replacement product and not** 

### 13 **a significant segment of the market.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay,** 

### 15 **final comments on this section?** 

### 16 **MR. DARLINGTON: And with that,** 

### 17 **I'm going to turn it over to Catherine. She's** 

### 18 **going to take you guys through the initial** 

### 19 **steps of the preliminary analysis.** 

### 20 **MS. RIVEST: Thank you, Adam.** 

### 21 **Again, I'm Catherine Rivest from Navigant** 

### 22 **Consulting and I'll be going over the steps of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 the preliminary analysis. So I'll be going**  

### 2 **over the three upstream analyses that include** 

### 3 **the market and technology assessment, the** 

### 4 **screening analysis, and the engineering** 

### 5 **analysis which will culminate in the energy** 

### 6 **efficiency relationship that will feed into** 

### 7 **the rest of the analyses.** 

### 8 **I'll be starting off with the** 

### 9 **market and technology assessment where we try** 

### 10 **to describe the market as well as come up with** 

### 11 **measures that improve boiler efficiency. And** 

### 12 **DOE does this by identifying and** 

### 13 **characterizing manufacturers of residential** 

### 14 **boilers, as well as getting data on the** 

### 15 **historical shipments and the trends in the** 

### 16 **market.** 

### 17 **DOE also looks at regulatory and** 

### 18 **non-regulatory programs like Energy Star. And** 

### 19 **DOE looks at databases to try and see what the** 

### 20 **market saturation is of certain efficiency** 

### 21 **levels of boilers. And in the technology** 

### 22 **assessment, DOE identifies the technologies**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 that could improve efficiency.**  

### 2 **At this point, DOE casts a really** 

### 3 **wide net and tries to just find any technology** 

### 4 **regardless of the stages, whether it's in** 

### 5 **commercial products or in a prototype or in** 

### 6 **the research stage. So at this time I'll open** 

### 7 **up the floor to this comment, item 5-1, DOE** 

### 8 **welcomes data that would contribute to the** 

### 9 **market and technology assessment, including** 

### 10 **but not limited to national historical** 

### 11 **shipments, manufacturing costs, distribution** 

### 12 **channels and manufacturer market share.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs.** 

### 14 **MR. SACHS: Was DOE represented or** 

### 15 **able to send one of its contractors to the ISH** 

### 16 **Conference and trade show this spring which is** 

### 17 **probably the world's largest center for the** 

### 18 **display of emerging technologies in this** 

### 19 **particular field of boilers?** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. ISH?** 

### 21 **MR. CYMBALSKY: If you want to** 

### 22 **discuss international travel, so yeah, that's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 a little difficult at the time.**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: We would be pleased to** 

### 3 **provide letters of support for having DOE** 

### 4 **represented at next year's ISH and I suspect** 

### 5 **the manufacturers would as well. Correction,** 

### 6 **it's biannual.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, that's good** 

### 8 **to know.** 

### 9 **Frank Stanonik.** 

### 10 **MR. STANONIK: Well, on this** 

### 11 **particular item clearly GAMA and AHRI has** 

### 12 **collected shipment statistics on residential** 

### 13 **boilers and at this point I can certainly say** 

### 14 **to the extent that our members will allow us,** 

### 15 **we will share that information with DOE and to** 

### 16 **whatever level of detail they are willing to** 

### 17 **help us give to you.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 19 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs again.** 

### 20 **I'm sorry, there's one more element in the** 

### 21 **analysis which will be important for oil-fired** 

### 22 **equipment. And that is -- I want to put into**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1 the record the need to consider the work of**  

### 2 **Dr. Thomas Butcher at Brookhaven National Lab** 

### 3 **who has established to my satisfaction, at** 

### 4 **least, that corrosion and annual maintenance** 

### 5 **don't look like they're problems with boilers** 

### 6 **that are used only with ultra-low sulfur fuel.** 

### 7 **That's mandated now for over-the-road** 

### 8 **vehicles, diesel, and it's mandated by law for** 

### 9 **residential boilers in New York State. That** 

### 10 **change also opens up the door for some** 

### 11 **technology changes that will make it more** 

### 12 **feasible to do condensing oil and it will be** 

### 13 **very important for the technical support** 

### 14 **document to consider that as one pathway. I'm** 

### 15 **not sure how the economics work, but it should** 

### 16 **not be left on the cutting room floor.** 

### 17 **MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky,** 

### 18 **DOE. Do you know if any other states,** 

### 19 **particularly in the Northeast, will adopt that** 

### 20 **standard for the low-sulfur fuel?** 

### 21 **MR. SACHS: I don't track that.** 

### 22 **David Lis from NEEP may or may not be on this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 call and we can certainly check in with them**  

### 2 **and I'm happy to do that.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Harvey.** 

### 4 **John.** 

### 5 **MR. BUSSE: John Busse, U.S.** 

### 6 **Boiler Company. I believe Massachusetts and** 

### 7 **Connecticut also had similar legislation. My** 

### 8 **understanding was they were sort of binding on** 

### 9 **one another. They all had to agree to similar** 

### 10 **standards so that the distribution channel** 

### 11 **would be maintained properly.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other -** 

### 13 **- so Frank, you pretty much got the data that** 

### 14 **the Department is looking for here. Is that** 

### 15 **correct?** 

### 16 **MR. STANONIK: Well, just the** 

### 17 **first one. Historical shipments.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Hopeful comment.** 

### 19 **MR. STANONIK: We do not collect** 

### 20 **the manufacturing costs. We really aren't** 

### 21 **involved in distribution channels and I could** 

### 22 **probably give market share ones and then lose**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 my job.**  

### 2 **(Laughter.)** 

### 3 **That's not going to happen.** 

### 4 **MR. CYMBALSKY: You're not** 

### 5 **retiring any time soon?** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, we're moving** 

### 7 **on.** 

### 8 **MS. RIVEST: Okay, great. So** 

### 9 **moving on to the technology assessment. Here,** 

### 10 **we've listed the technology options that we've** 

### 11 **identified in the framework document. So many** 

### 12 **of these technologies were drawn from previous** 

### 13 **rulemakings. We've also listed technologies** 

### 14 **to improve the standby and off-mode power** 

### 15 **consumption and framework document describes** 

### 16 **these technologies in greater detail.** 

### 17 **So I'll open up the floor for** 

### 18 **comments on these technologies.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Jeff.** 

### 20 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,** 

### 21 **Lochinvar. While I have some hope and support** 

### 22 **the idea of off cycle loss regulation on the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 standby mode regulation, I think that DOE**  

### 2 **needs to consider that within the current AFUE** 

### 3 **calculation, the jacket losses for the boiler** 

### 4 **are not considered in the calculation. The** 

### 5 **reason for that is that boilers are installed** 

### 6 **inside of houses, almost exclusively. So any** 

### 7 **residual heat that is shed by the appliance is** 

### 8 **considered to be useful heat within the** 

### 9 **envelope of the building. And that's why this** 

### 10 **jacket-loss factor applied, zero within the** 

### 11 **AFUE calculation, is used here.** 

### 12 **Standby mode losses, any kind of** 

### 13 **electric power consumption is going to end up** 

### 14 **being converted into heat which is going to be** 

### 15 **a similar, not truly a loss, but it's going to** 

### 16 **be heat that's going to be released into the** 

### 17 **environment. Now an off-mode loss certainly** 

### 18 **could happen while you're in a cooling mode** 

### 19 **for a home. But standby loss during heating** 

### 20 **season really should not be considered as a** 

### 21 **loss. And so that's one factor that I think** 

### 22 **should be considered in this.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1 The second thing is that with the**  

### 2 **power consumption that's being used for these** 

### 3 **heating appliances, the electrical power** 

### 4 **consumption is a very, very small factor for** 

### 5 **the appliances. And I'll be providing some** 

### 6 **written comments that have an example. Right** 

### 7 **now, I can just say that what I calculated as** 

### 8 **an average is probably .15 percent of the** 

### 9 **power.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Point 15.** 

### 11 **MR. KLEISS: Point 15. Just in my** 

### 12 **general calculation. And the third point here** 

### 13 **is that some of the technology that's** 

### 14 **suggested here certainly would add costs to** 

### 15 **the appliance and in addition to that has the** 

### 16 **potential to create additional maintenance** 

### 17 **problems. In particular, switching the power** 

### 18 **mode off to the blower motors that consume** 

### 19 **power in the standby mode, the primary** 

### 20 **manufacturer of those blowers that are used in** 

### 21 **the U.S. has recommended against that that it** 

### 22 **could damage the blower.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1 Now we might be saving a very**  

### 2 **small electrical power consumption that's** 

### 3 **actually adding heat to the envelope and as a** 

### 4 **result, damaging a rather expensive component** 

### 5 **that's going to require a qualified technician** 

### 6 **to do a replacement on it. So there's -- the** 

### 7 **standby electrical power consumption is** 

### 8 **something that I strongly encourage DOE to** 

### 9 **remove from the table for boilers.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Frank.** 

### 11 **MR. STANONIK: Well, I can't pass** 

### 12 **this one up. This is an example, I guess, of** 

### 13 **my initial comment about using analysis from** 

### 14 **the past. Again, technology options that** 

### 15 **you're listing, pulse combustion, granted,** 

### 16 **it's a unique technology, but its end result** 

### 17 **is simply to create a condensing appliance.** 

### 18 **In terms of looking at let's just say the** 

### 19 **option of creating a condensing appliance, I** 

### 20 **don't think DOE needs, as they go forward here** 

### 21 **to continue to consider pulse combustion as a** 

### 22 **unique technology out there.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1 Granted, again, I agree. It's a**  

### 2 **unique technology. I just don't think in** 

### 3 **terms of where products have evolved it needs** 

### 4 **to be considered as a separate unique -- if it** 

### 5 **evolved and DOE is going to push things** 

### 6 **towards condensing, then you know, I can't** 

### 7 **envision DOE is going to say we're going to** 

### 8 **create a condensing rule where everything has** 

### 9 **to be pulse combustion. They're going to** 

### 10 **create a condensing rule where everything has** 

### 11 **to -- how will you get there? So I just think** 

### 12 **that one, you know, my own opinion, should** 

### 13 **just be removed from the list. It's just not** 

### 14 **-- maybe whenever it was developed years ago** 

### 15 **was worth consideration, but today, I don't** 

### 16 **think that's the case.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Speak up, Frank.** 

### 18 **MR. STANONIK: We thought that** 

### 19 **last one --** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: You're not on.** 

### 21 **Thank you.** 

### 22 **MR. STEPHENS: Thank you, Phillip**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1 Stephens. We'd like to go on record**  

### 2 **supporting the previous comments from** 

### 3 **Lochinvar and AHRI and also noting that the** 

### 4 **section, the current section in the ASHRAE 103** 

### 5 **test method to prove the draft, the tracer gas** 

### 6 **method, is horribly written and very difficult** 

### 7 **to understand and to implement. You are by** 

### 8 **default inducing a vacuum, as you're trying to** 

### 9 **measure for carbon monoxide and you're** 

### 10 **inducing a flow by injecting carbon monoxide** 

### 11 **into the system. It's a very difficult test.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: John, you want to** 

### 13 **comment here?** 

### 14 **MR. BUSSE: John Busse. No** 

### 15 **additional comments other than we do support** 

### 16 **the previous comments from Jeff and --** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs.** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 19 **The standby and off-mode criteria or** 

### 20 **parameters are prescribed in EISA, as I** 

### 21 **recall, but it's a legislative requirement.** 

### 22 **The question, given the relatively small**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1 amounts of energy asserted by Jeff and Phillip**  

### 2 **is whether the Department would consider** 

### 3 **default values that are representative as** 

### 4 **being acceptable in lieu of testing.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Final** 

### 6 **comments on this section?** 

### 7 **MR. SACHS: So what's the** 

### 8 **question, whether they would consider?** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley** 

### 10 **from the Department. I don't think we have a** 

### 11 **definitive answer to that. I think we could** 

### 12 **always consider default by use to reduce test** 

### 13 **burden. We would need data on what a** 

### 14 **representative default value would be or** 

### 15 **different default values for different models,** 

### 16 **characteristics of standby and off, etcetera.** 

### 17 **But yes.** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: For the record, I** 

### 19 **think we would be willing to work with** 

### 20 **industry in supporting that if a rational** 

### 21 **program would be less burdensome than testing** 

### 22 **each product, could be arranged.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: That's not a promise,** 

### 3 **but we're certainly all ears.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: John.** 

### 5 **MR. BUSSE: John Busse. A little** 

### 6 **bit off the cuff here, having run some of the** 

### 7 **electrical standby loss tests a year ago, it** 

### 8 **is from our standpoint it was an extremely** 

### 9 **burdensome process. It requires much more** 

### 10 **precision than anything else as far as the** 

### 11 **boiler test procedure and as Jeff noted, it is** 

### 12 **a very small percentage of the actual energy** 

### 13 **consumption.** 

### 14 **The equipment, I believe, was** 

### 15 **expensive, and it just -- in some cases we** 

### 16 **could not get a valid result because it was** 

### 17 **measuring things in terms of the electrical** 

### 18 **supply that we had no control over and in many** 

### 19 **cases we had tests that were not valid. They** 

### 20 **did not meet the electrical test standard. So** 

### 21 **again, it was significantly more burdensome** 

### 22 **than running an AFUE test where you're**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1 measuring fuel and water quantities.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 3 **MS. RIVEST: Great, so we'll move** 

### 4 **on to the screening analysis. So the purpose** 

### 5 **of the screening analysis is to rule out** 

### 6 **technologies -- I'm sorry, the purpose of the** 

### 7 **screening analysis is to focus the analysis on** 

### 8 **technologies that are viable. So the four** 

### 9 **screening criteria that DOE uses are** 

### 10 **technological feasibility. So a technology is** 

### 11 **considered feasible if it's been demonstrated** 

### 12 **in a working prototype or in a commercial** 

### 13 **product.** 

### 14 **DOE also looks at practicability** 

### 15 **to manufacture, install, and service. So if** 

### 16 **the technology can be produced, can be mass** 

### 17 **produced and installed and serviced to a great** 

### 18 **enough extent to meet the market demands, then** 

### 19 **it would be considered practicable to install,** 

### 20 **to manufacture, install and service.** 

### 21 **DOE also looks at adverse effects** 

### 22 **on product utility and adverse effects on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1 health and safety.**  

### 2 **Opening up the floor to comment,** 

### 3 **for item 6-1, of any of the technologies** 

### 4 **listed in the previous slide, are there any** 

### 5 **that should be screened out because of the** 

### 6 **criteria mentioned on this slide? And if so,** 

### 7 **which criteria apply?** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs.** 

### 9 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 10 **With respect to technological feasibility and** 

### 11 **considering the globalization of supply** 

### 12 **chains, it would seem pretty obvious that** 

### 13 **anything that is available commercially and** 

### 14 **from say two or more manufacturers in the** 

### 15 **global market would be considered** 

### 16 **technologically feasible. And therefore,** 

### 17 **there is a burden on DOE to look at what's** 

### 18 **available in the global market as that which** 

### 19 **is required to demonstrate that something is** 

### 20 **not technologically feasible.** 

### 21 **MS. RIVEST: Thank you.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,**  

### 2 **Lochinvar. Per my previous comments, in terms** 

### 3 **of boilers with the BPM motors, the controller** 

### 4 **relay models, that would have an adverse** 

### 5 **effect on the product utility.** 

### 6 **MS. RIVEST: Thank you.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments** 

### 8 **on these screening factors? John.** 

### 9 **MR. BUSSE: John Busse. In the** 

### 10 **case of pulse combustion, I think that should** 

### 11 **probably be screened out. The first boiler** 

### 12 **that I'm aware of came out in 1963 out of** 

### 13 **Canada, Green Steel Hydronics. They built 450** 

### 14 **of them. And discontinued. Other** 

### 15 **manufacturers have used pulse and some of them** 

### 16 **have dropped it, if not all of them.** 

### 17 **The technology has been there.** 

### 18 **It's been analyzed by several people and it's** 

### 19 **really not being used at this point. So I** 

### 20 **would not spend any time on that.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Why is it not being** 

### 22 **used?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1 MR. BUSSE: I don't know the**  

### 2 **factors involved with that. One manufacturer,** 

### 3 **I heard third or fourth party, there was a** 

### 4 **reliability issue with both the heat exchanger** 

### 5 **and other things. Generally, they are noisier** 

### 6 **because they have a 60-cycle hum associated** 

### 7 **with them. That was the normal operating** 

### 8 **frequency. And so issues such as that. And** 

### 9 **in some cases, it just did not fit into the** 

### 10 **true manufacturing scheme of the company** 

### 11 **because they were more complicated to** 

### 12 **manufacture as a heat exchanger.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jim, did you have -** 

### 14 **- that covers it? Okay. Frank Stanonik.** 

### 15 **MR. STANONIK: I've been mulling -** 

### 16 **- Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I've been mulling** 

### 17 **Harvey's comment a little bit and looking at** 

### 18 **what, let's say, DOE has to do in doing this** 

### 19 **analysis. I guess I just would put some** 

### 20 **caution on the concept of looking at what's** 

### 21 **available internationally. Certainly, there** 

### 22 **is some validity to saying that some**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1 technology that may be employed in some other**  

### 2 **country in the world is technically feasible,** 

### 3 **obviously, if it is being employed, it is.** 

### 4 **But that of itself, I think,** 

### 5 **doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be** 

### 6 **considered in the analysis. Markets are** 

### 7 **unique and I'm not talking about relative to** 

### 8 **the sale of things, but in terms of the** 

### 9 **distribution, the support, if you will, the** 

### 10 **installation, all of the things that go into** 

### 11 **making sure that the consumer gets a properly** 

### 12 **installed and properly operating equipment.** 

### 13 **And in some cases, it may be a factor that a** 

### 14 **technology that may be popular wherever and** 

### 15 **again, clearly would be technically feasible,** 

### 16 **comes with -- would come with a whole host of** 

### 17 **problems because there would be no familiarity** 

### 18 **with it in the United States.** 

### 19 **And so I understand what Harvey is** 

### 20 **saying, but I'm certainly not -- I don't think** 

### 21 **DOE should necessarily just look at every** 

### 22 **technology that's being used some place and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1 say well, we have to consider these. There**  

### 2 **are other factors.** 

### 3 **And the other point is that, in** 

### 4 **fact, in several products that are in the U.S.** 

### 5 **market, the manufacturers already are** 

### 6 **embracing or incorporating technologies that** 

### 7 **have been developed in other parts of the** 

### 8 **world. And so I guess I'm going to go out on** 

### 9 **a limb a little bit and say if DOE focuses on** 

### 10 **technologies of products that are in the** 

### 11 **market in the U.S., they in fact, will to some** 

### 12 **degree actually look at foreign technologies.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 14 **MS. RIVEST: Okay, great. So** 

### 15 **next, we'll move on to engineering analysis.** 

### 16 **So the purpose of the engineering analysis is** 

### 17 **to determine the relationship between** 

### 18 **efficiency level and manufacturers' selling** 

### 19 **price. So DOE will determine the cost** 

### 20 **efficiency relationship by eliminating -- I'm** 

### 21 **sorry, by estimating the increase in** 

### 22 **manufacturers' selling price with technology**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1 changes that increase the efficiency of the**  

### 2 **boilers relative to a baseline model.** 

### 3 **So the relationship between price** 

### 4 **and efficiency feeds into further analyze** 

### 5 **including the life-cycle cost analysis, the** 

### 6 **manufacturer impact analysis, and the** 

### 7 **employment impact analysis. DOE will develop** 

### 8 **separate engineering analysis for each product** 

### 9 **class considered in this rulemaking and DOE** 

### 10 **intends to use boiler tear-downs and** 

### 11 **efficiency tests to develop cost efficiency** 

### 12 **relationships for the boilers analyzed.** 

### 13 **So as I previously mentioned, DOE** 

### 14 **proposes to perform the engineering analysis** 

### 15 **by testing and tearing down commercially** 

### 16 **available products. This graphic gives an** 

### 17 **idea of the process DOE plans to use to go** 

### 18 **through and develop the cost efficiency curves** 

### 19 **so it would be in the product. To begin the** 

### 20 **process, DOE will identify baseline models for** 

### 21 **each product analyzed which will serve as a** 

### 22 **reference point against which DOE can measure**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1 changes resulting from energy efficiency**  

### 2 **improvements.** 

### 3 **The baseline model lists the most** 

### 4 **common, least efficient product that just** 

### 5 **meets the current energy conservation** 

### 6 **standard. So after the baseline models are** 

### 7 **described and defined, DOE will select** 

### 8 **efficiency levels between the baseline and the** 

### 9 **max-tech, based on the information obtained in** 

### 10 **the market and technology assessment.** 

### 11 **And then DOE will generate a bill** 

### 12 **of materials by disassembling each boiler** 

### 13 **across various manufacturers spanning the** 

### 14 **range of efficiency levels. And finally, DOE** 

### 15 **will develop a cost model to convert the bill** 

### 16 **of materials into manufacturer costs.** 

### 17 **So we have a list of questions** 

### 18 **here. Item 7-1, seeks input regarding the** 

### 19 **range of efficiency levels and any key** 

### 20 **efficiency levels that should be examined as** 

### 21 **part of the analysis for each product class.** 

### 22 **And for Item 7-2 is regarding the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1 appropriate max-tech for each product class**  

### 2 **for residential boilers.** 

### 3 **Item 7-3 seeks input on the** 

### 4 **representative capacity and other** 

### 5 **representative characteristics for each** 

### 6 **residential boiler product class.** 

### 7 **And finally, Item 7-4, DOE seeks** 

### 8 **input on characteristics which might require** 

### 9 **multiple representative products within a** 

### 10 **single product class.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs.** 

### 12 **MR. SACHS: This is not a new** 

### 13 **issue and DOE has, in part -- Harvey Sachs,** 

### 14 **ACEEE. In part, has attempted to address it** 

### 15 **downstream in the life-cycle cost analysis.** 

### 16 **But referring back to the figure on the left** 

### 17 **of Slide 27 and all the mechanisms -- Slide** 

### 18 **27.** 

### 19 **MS. RIVEST: This is not 27?** 

### 20 **Okay.** 

### 21 **MR. SACHS: There's pretty good** 

### 22 **literature now that these static analyses do**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1 not reflect what happens in the general case**  

### 2 **when DOE adopts new standards, that** 

### 3 **manufacturers are concerned with performance** 

### 4 **to meet the standards, and have shown** 

### 5 **themselves to be extremely creative in finding** 

### 6 **ways to reduce costs and this is why we get** 

### 7 **into the shift type scenario considerations.** 

### 8 **This is a static view and is not a dynamic** 

### 9 **view that reflects the historical pattern of** 

### 10 **responses to standards. And somehow, DOE has** 

### 11 **got to figure this out.** 

### 12 **Now there may be less of an effect** 

### 13 **for relatively low-volume boilers than there** 

### 14 **is for large-volume air conditioners and heat** 

### 15 **pumps where there have been major investments** 

### 16 **in revitalizing the manufacturing process.** 

### 17 **But I guess on some level I'm just tired of** 

### 18 **staring at a diagram that we all know does not** 

### 19 **reflect what happens in the actual world of** 

### 20 **manufacturing and marketing products. End of** 

### 21 **rant.** 

### 22 **MS. RIVEST: Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: John, comments**  

### 2 **here.** 

### 3 **MR. BUSSE: Yes, John Busse. In** 

### 4 **terms of the engineering analysis or final** 

### 5 **analysis, what about installed cost and** 

### 6 **maintenance cost? Where does that fit into** 

### 7 **the equations because they are very -- they** 

### 8 **can be dramatically different based on the** 

### 9 **efficiency range of the product.** 

### 10 **MS. RIVEST: So go ahead --** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: They will be added** 

### 12 **-- so we characterize them as part of the** 

### 13 **life-cycle cost analysis. This is just the** 

### 14 **cost all the way through the manufacturer** 

### 15 **selling the product and then distribution** 

### 16 **chain and subsequent installation and/or** 

### 17 **maintenance or repair over the life of the** 

### 18 **product will be added as part of the next.** 

### 19 **And I think Ross is going to talk about that.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Frank.** 

### 21 **MR. STANONIK: With regard to --** 

### 22 **Frank Stanonik, AHRI. With regard to item 7-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1 1, and again, this is another one of these**  

### 2 **issues that is let's say constant whenever** 

### 3 **we're looking at rulemaking on combustion** 

### 4 **equipment. There's been significant** 

### 5 **discussions that clearly establish that you** 

### 6 **have a certain ceiling when you're dealing** 

### 7 **with products that are non-condensing and then** 

### 8 **when you get to condensing you enter a** 

### 9 **different range of efficiency levels. I would** 

### 10 **just encourage DOE and I will certainly go** 

### 11 **back and look at our records to use -- again,** 

### 12 **leverage the information that existed before** 

### 13 **that in terms of residential boilers there is** 

### 14 **a practical limit on how far you can take the** 

### 15 **efficiency of a non-condensing boiler. And** 

### 16 **there's a certain zone where the industry** 

### 17 **really for a variety of reasons mostly related** 

### 18 **to safety, unwilling to enter even though** 

### 19 **again it could be technically done. So** 

### 20 **there's this gap and then you jump to** 

### 21 **condensing.** 

### 22 **So there's two ranges, I think**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1 that need to be looked at. I would just**  

### 2 **encourage DOE to look at -- at least start** 

### 3 **from where we've been before.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong.** 

### 5 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley** 

### 6 **from DOE. Frank, I think it's correct to say** 

### 7 **we typically do start from where we left off.** 

### 8 **In this case though I have a specific** 

### 9 **question for you. And I guess I wonder -- I** 

### 10 **realize that there's a safety range and I'm** 

### 11 **wondering what that landscape or how that** 

### 12 **landscape may change given the test procedure** 

### 13 **meeting and the shift from this morning. So I** 

### 14 **encourage you to address that as part of your** 

### 15 **comments, when we are now going to see, you** 

### 16 **know, that middle level condensing or at least** 

### 17 **some of that falls down a little bit.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Several** 

### 19 **questions here in the comment boxes. Please** 

### 20 **take a peek. Additional comments on these?** 

### 21 **Jeff?** 

### 22 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1 Lochinvar. In response to Item 7-2, DOE seeks**  

### 2 **comment on appropriate maximum technologically** 

### 3 **feasible efficiency levels for residential** 

### 4 **boilers. We would encourage the DOE while** 

### 5 **considering max-tech levels that as much as** 

### 6 **possible they look at proven technologies,** 

### 7 **things that we have been working to move into** 

### 8 **condensing boilers. There's a variety of** 

### 9 **different types of combustion. And there are** 

### 10 **a number of technologies that have failed.** 

### 11 **And would want to make sure that something** 

### 12 **that truly will be feasible in the long run** 

### 13 **and not create an unsustainable product would** 

### 14 **be what would be considered.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 16 **MR. KLEISS: Second item, Item 7-** 

### 17 **4, unless I need to stop for a response?** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: No.** 

### 19 **MR. KLEISS: Okay, just some of** 

### 20 **the DOE seeks input on characteristics which** 

### 21 **may require multiple representative products** 

### 22 **within a single product class. Some of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1 characteristics that would be I think suitable**  

### 2 **to consider would be heat exchanger material** 

### 3 **of construction. And I'll provide -- through** 

### 4 **AHRI, we'll provide written comments on these.** 

### 5 **But stainless steel, copper, aluminum, cast** 

### 6 **iron, all those different materials bring with** 

### 7 **them certain limitations and advantages. And** 

### 8 **then different types of heat exchange** 

### 9 **construction, be it single piece, mechanically** 

### 10 **assembled, welded. But those will be provided** 

### 11 **in written comment.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 13 **Additional comments?** 

### 14 **MS. RIVEST: Great, then I'll pass** 

### 15 **it off to Ross and he'll go over the markup** 

### 16 **analysis.** 

### 17 **MR. DILLON: Good morning, Ross** 

### 18 **Dillon. And I'm from Lawrence Berkeley** 

### 19 **National Laboratory.** 

### 20 **Next, we'll be talking about the** 

### 21 **markups and energy use analysis which feed** 

### 22 **into the life-cycle cost and payback period**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1 analysis that will be discussed in greater**  

### 2 **detail later on.** 

### 3 **The markups analysis intends to** 

### 4 **characterize how products are distributed from** 

### 5 **the manufacturer to the consumer and to** 

### 6 **determine the prices paid by consumers for** 

### 7 **baseline and higher efficiency products.** 

### 8 **Markups analysis approach consists** 

### 9 **of identifying and characterizing the** 

### 10 **distribution channels and applying an** 

### 11 **estimated markup price for each step. For** 

### 12 **residential boilers, two distribution channels** 

### 13 **have been identified, as you can see on the** 

### 14 **board. One for replacements, number one; and** 

### 15 **one for new construction, diagram 2.** 

### 16 **These diagrams describe how most** 

### 17 **residential boilers pass from the** 

### 18 **manufacturers to the consumers. For the first** 

### 19 **distribution channel, you'll see that --** 

### 20 **sorry, for the first distribution channel,** 

### 21 **you'll see that replacement distribution** 

### 22 **channel, the manufacturer generally sells**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60**  **1 equipment to the wholesaler and then, in turn,**  

### 2 **sells it to the mechanical contractor and then** 

### 3 **on to the end consumer, the end user. The** 

### 4 **second distribution channel for new** 

### 5 **construction adds in the general constructor.** 

### 6 **On to the comments, DOE seeks** 

### 7 **input on future residential boiler retail** 

### 8 **pricing.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: No comments at this** 

### 10 **time. Understandable.** 

### 11 **MR. DILLON: The next section** 

### 12 **that we'll be reviewing is the energy use** 

### 13 **analysis. The outputs of this analysis will** 

### 14 **be applied to analyses that we'll discuss** 

### 15 **later on in the presentation.** 

### 16 **The energy use analysis is used to** 

### 17 **determine the annual energy consumption of** 

### 18 **residential boilers for representative U.S.** 

### 19 **homes. The annual energy consumption will be** 

### 20 **estimated at specified energy efficiency** 

### 21 **levels across a range of climate zones. The** 

### 22 **approach for the energy use analysis involves**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61**  **1 deriving a distribution of boiler operating**  

### 2 **hours for the household sample using the RECS** 

### 3 **2009 survey by Section and Census Division.** 

### 4 **To support the development of this** 

### 5 **analysis, DOE intends to utilize EIA's RECS** 

### 6 **database for the majority of the data needs** 

### 7 **supplemented where necessary by available** 

### 8 **information.** 

### 9 **DOE welcomes comments 9-1 through** 

### 10 **9-8. 9-1, DOE requests input regarding the** 

### 11 **use of RECS data for determining energy** 

### 12 **consumption of boilers. 9-2, DOE seeks input** 

### 13 **regarding what fraction of boilers in multiple** 

### 14 **housing units are considered commercial. 9-3,** 

### 15 **DOE seeks historical shipment-weighted boiler** 

### 16 **efficiency data between 2003 and 2011.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's just pause** 

### 18 **there for now. Frank.** 

### 19 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 20 **AHRI. On 9-2, we've had some discussion on it** 

### 21 **and we're puzzled as to why that matters in** 

### 22 **this analysis. If it's a large boiler that's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62**  **1 not covered by this rulemaking, what**  

### 2 **significance does that question have? We** 

### 3 **couldn't figure it out.** 

### 4 **So you have a multi-housing unit** 

### 5 **that has an essential boiler system and it has** 

### 6 **a boiler that's not a residential boiler, so** 

### 7 **why the question? We just couldn't understand** 

### 8 **it.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky.** 

### 10 **MR. CYMBALSKY: I'll take a stab.** 

### 11 **My past employment at EIA, I think what** 

### 12 **they're getting at here is that some of the** 

### 13 **data may actually include these large boilers** 

### 14 **that are servicing the multi-family market and** 

### 15 **so the energy used characteristics from the** 

### 16 **number they'd get out of RECS would be based** 

### 17 **on a shared big boiler for say two multi** 

### 18 **family households.** 

### 19 **MR. STANONIK: I don't have a** 

### 20 **working knowledge of RECS. So it might be** 

### 21 **something that needs to be filtered out of the** 

### 22 **RECS statement.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63**  **1 MR. CYMBALSKY: I have a question.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, John** 

### 3 **Cymbalsky.** 

### 4 **MR. CYMBALSKY: This is maybe for** 

### 5 **the manufacturers. So would propane versus** 

### 6 **natural gas impact the AFUE for a boiler or** 

### 7 **would they be rated roughly the same? We have** 

### 8 **had questions from manufacturers.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff?** 

### 10 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss with** 

### 11 **Lochinvar. We generally test just with** 

### 12 **natural gas and report with the same number** 

### 13 **for natural gas and LP. You can get a** 

### 14 **slightly different -- AFUE, you get a slightly** 

### 15 **higher with LP. But to be conservative, we** 

### 16 **typically report one number and that's also** 

### 17 **the most prevalent as far as what's sold, so** 

### 18 **natural gas.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: It's quite close?** 

### 20 **MR. KLEISS: Relatively.** 

### 21 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Would the quality** 

### 22 **of the -- maybe quality is not the right word,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64**  **1 but chemical makeup of the LP can maybe be a**  

### 2 **little different from place to place?** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Frank?** 

### 4 **MR. STANONIK: Well, yes, not just** 

### 5 **for boilers, but in general any gas-fired** 

### 6 **product if you fire with propane, because of** 

### 7 **the chemical nature of the propane, in test** 

### 8 **procedures we use today, most of them will** 

### 9 **show a little better performance. But as Jeff** 

### 10 **was saying, well, first of all, the -- I'm not** 

### 11 **sure of all of the test procedures, but again,** 

### 12 **the case of the water heater test procedure,** 

### 13 **if your input rating using propane is within** 

### 14 **ten percent of the input rating using natural** 

### 15 **gas, you can just use your test result from** 

### 16 **natural gas.** 

### 17 **And so the other part of it is** 

### 18 **that, rough numbers, one out of every ten gas** 

### 19 **fired appliances is propane. And so with all** 

### 20 **of the costs that come with testing** 

### 21 **certification and everything else, it just** 

### 22 **makes a lot more sense to just simply use the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65**  **1 option that's allowed and just rate it based**  

### 2 **on your natural gas test. The change isn't** 

### 3 **worth that -- isn't worth what would come with** 

### 4 **it to separately support that rating.** 

### 5 **MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm not suggesting** 

### 6 **you do that. I guess I'm looking to see if** 

### 7 **there was a hard and fast rule that natural** 

### 8 **gas would always have the lower rating than** 

### 9 **propane. And if that's the case, I'm** 

### 10 **perfectly happy with that.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Frank, please.** 

### 12 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 13 **AHRI. I would say that our experience** 

### 14 **certainly supports that. I've never seen,** 

### 15 **let's say, the theoretical analysis that would** 

### 16 **actually say like a geometrical proof, if you** 

### 17 **will, but clearly the experience is that is** 

### 18 **what you see.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: And Frank, what** 

### 20 **about 9-3, historical shipment-weighted boiler** 

### 21 **efficiency data. Does AHRI have that stuff?** 

### 22 **MR. STANONIK: In 9-3, I think --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66**  **1 it could be developed, but again, that's a**  

### 2 **situation where we will have to discuss with** 

### 3 **our members and determine whether they're** 

### 4 **willing to help us generate that information.** 

### 5 **It does have some confidentiality questions** 

### 6 **and issues that would need to be addressed** 

### 7 **before I could definitely tell whether we** 

### 8 **could give it to you or not.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Jeff, do you** 

### 10 **have a comment here? Nothing additional.** 

### 11 **Okay.** 

### 12 **MR. SACHS: Well --** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: I missed you,** 

### 14 **Harvey. Sorry, go ahead.** 

### 15 **MR. SACHS: You missed Alex.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex, please come** 

### 17 **to the -- find a microphone.** 

### 18 **MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence** 

### 19 **Berkeley National Laboratory. Just to add** 

### 20 **that the Department in the past was always** 

### 21 **willing to sign nondisclosure agreement if the** 

### 22 **industry is willing to provide any data**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67**  **1 including this type of data.**  

### 2 **And historically, GAMA in 2003** 

### 3 **provided this data. So we have it for the** 

### 4 **period of 2003. Thank you.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Harvey.** 

### 6 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 7 **Frank, this is really directed to you, but** 

### 8 **it's in a sense that it might be helpful to** 

### 9 **DOE and the rest of us. I think I understand** 

### 10 **the natural gas versus propane stoichiometry.** 

### 11 **And my sense has been that's about the limit** 

### 12 **of my chemistry. My sense has been that we** 

### 13 **generally just change the orifice size to sell** 

### 14 **the product as propane instead of natural gas.** 

### 15 **If that's the case then it would seem to me** 

### 16 **that it would a good idea to allow the ratings** 

### 17 **to be converted by the stoic and the capacity** 

### 18 **and it just might be helpful to explain the** 

### 19 **differences generally seen in the propane** 

### 20 **versus product varieties in your written** 

### 21 **comments.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Frank.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68**  **1 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,**  

### 2 **AHRI. Harvey, you certainly are correct in** 

### 3 **terms of, let's say, setting up the appliance** 

### 4 **to burn propane. Obviously, the fuel on a** 

### 5 **volume basis has more than twice the energy of** 

### 6 **natural gas and so you simply, not simply, you** 

### 7 **change the orifice, but then you also have to** 

### 8 **adjust the pressure so that you're effectively** 

### 9 **getting the same energy delivery.** 

### 10 **I think the only issue with your** 

### 11 **suggestion that maybe one could just say** 

### 12 **mathematically convert or have some adjusted** 

### 13 **mathematical conversion, the only issue I** 

### 14 **would see there is that, as I mentioned, the** 

### 15 **test procedures allow that if your input** 

### 16 **rating is within X percent of your natural** 

### 17 **gas. So there's some leeway there and that** 

### 18 **would have -- that had some influence on it.** 

### 19 **And it's not always the case that the propane** 

### 20 **version will have the exact same input rating** 

### 21 **as natural gas. So I see that as really the** 

### 22 **only complication to what you are suggesting.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Ross, walk us**  

### 2 **through 9-4 through 9-8.** 

### 3 **MR. DILLON: So we're going to** 

### 4 **continue on with the energy use analysis** 

### 5 **request for comments. 9-4, DOE seeks input on** 

### 6 **data sources for annual energy consumption.** 

### 7 **9-5, DOE requests input on what fraction a** 

### 8 **boiler market consists of combination boilers,** 

### 9 **space heating and water heating capabilities.** 

### 10 **9-6, DOE seeks input on the fraction of** 

### 11 **residential boilers that are used in** 

### 12 **combination of hydronic air handlers. 9-7,** 

### 13 **DOE seeks input on the fraction of residential** 

### 14 **boilers that are used in commercial** 

### 15 **applications. 9-8, DOE seeks comment on the** 

### 16 **rebound effect that may be associated with** 

### 17 **more efficient residential boilers.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff.** 

### 19 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,** 

### 20 **Lochinvar. In regards to Item 9-5, DOE seeks** 

### 21 **stakeholder input on what fractions of oil** 

### 22 **fired and gas-fired hot water boilers are used**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70**  **1 for space heating and domestic hot water**  

### 2 **purposes. Now I am drawing an inference that** 

### 3 **part of the purpose of gathering this data is** 

### 4 **considering the standby energy loss or the** 

### 5 **heating of hot water during hot heating season** 

### 6 **and how that could affect efficiency or losses** 

### 7 **that are associated with the product.** 

### 8 **To that end, I think it's very** 

### 9 **important that DOE segregate the data they** 

### 10 **collect on any boilers that are providing for** 

### 11 **hot water heating based on the type of boiler** 

### 12 **that's generating that hot water. It would be** 

### 13 **a very different thing as far as the standby** 

### 14 **energy loss that would be involved with a** 

### 15 **boiler that is circulating water to an** 

### 16 **indirect fired hot water storage tank versus a** 

### 17 **combination boiler that's a low-mass boiler** 

### 18 **and has a small plate and frame heat exchanger** 

### 19 **installed in it versus a large high-mass** 

### 20 **boiler that has a copper coil installed in a** 

### 21 **water way that then has to be -- the entire** 

### 22 **boiler has to be maintained at a higher**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71**  **1 temperature. You have very different standby**  

### 2 **loss characteristics for those three products.** 

### 3 **So as you're collecting that data I would** 

### 4 **suggest that you differentiate between those** 

### 5 **three classes.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Frank.** 

### 7 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 8 **AHRI. I actually have a little different** 

### 9 **question. As Jeff mentioned, there, in fact,** 

### 10 **are several ways to provide -- using a boiler** 

### 11 **to provide combined space heating and water** 

### 12 **heating. I just wondered if DOE had any** 

### 13 **particular set up in mind and as an example I** 

### 14 **think the first thing that comes to most** 

### 15 **people's mind is you've got the boiler and** 

### 16 **then you have what we call indirect water** 

### 17 **heater where you're simply circulating the** 

### 18 **boiler water through a coil in this separate** 

### 19 **tank that heats your domestic water.** 

### 20 **I guess the question was did DOE** 

### 21 **have a particular arrangement in mind or in** 

### 22 **fact, as Jeff mentioned, were they looking for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72**  **1 or intending to look at all of these varieties**  

### 2 **of how you do this multi-function approach.** 

### 3 **MR. DILLON: So during this phase** 

### 4 **of the analysis in the framework stage, we're** 

### 5 **still trying to assess the market and assess** 

### 6 **the technology. So that will come, defining** 

### 7 **that product or what that looks like will come** 

### 8 **at a later stage.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Yes,** 

### 10 **Phillip.** 

### 11 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens.** 

### 12 **We see this as a growing or an emerging** 

### 13 **market. We believe very strongly that this** 

### 14 **could become quite substantial. We have --** 

### 15 **several manufacturers have volume water heater** 

### 16 **options, BWH options or some other** 

### 17 **nomenclature for their boiler products, so** 

### 18 **that a boiler can provide domestic hot water.** 

### 19 **Our company also has an inverse** 

### 20 **product, a storage tank water heater with a** 

### 21 **heat pack on it that also provides domestic** 

### 22 **heat. We said it's very probable.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73**  **1 MR. DILLON: Thank you.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 3 **You can see the request for comment, all five** 

### 4 **of those items. Yes, Frank.** 

### 5 **MR. STANONIK: Just a difference** 

### 6 **item here. Item 9-6, Frank Stanonik, AHRI.** 

### 7 **Item 9-6, again, that was one which caused us** 

### 8 **a little head scratching only in the sense of** 

### 9 **kind of why DOE was asking the question.** 

### 10 **We're just not really aware that boilers use -** 

### 11 **- maybe I guess the question is what was DOE** 

### 12 **intending or what were they meaning by** 

### 13 **hydronic air handlers? We don't really see** 

### 14 **that as a significant part of the residential** 

### 15 **market.** 

### 16 **I guess my question was to kind of** 

### 17 **make sure we're talking about the same thing,** 

### 18 **I guess, is what were they -- how are they** 

### 19 **describing hydronic air handler?** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex Lekov.** 

### 21 **MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence** 

### 22 **Berkeley National Laboratory. So this request**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74**  **1 for comment is primarily to help with economic**  

### 2 **analysis where we are trying to assess the** 

### 3 **actual energy used by the boiler for different** 

### 4 **applications. So hydronic air handlers is one** 

### 5 **of those applications. Maybe the difference** 

### 6 **comes as a result of the written temperature** 

### 7 **associated with this, with different** 

### 8 **application resulting in different energy use.** 

### 9 **MR. STANONIK: I guess, Alex, what** 

### 10 **I'm asking this hydronic air handler, what is** 

### 11 **this product, in the mind of the analyzers,** 

### 12 **what does this product look like? If we're** 

### 13 **talking about a water heater heating space,** 

### 14 **okay, I know that's a very common system. You** 

### 15 **take the water from the water heater, run it** 

### 16 **in the coil in an air handler and you** 

### 17 **basically have space heating.** 

### 18 **Are you talking about that version** 

### 19 **of a product where the water is coming from a** 

### 20 **boiler or are you talking about a product in** 

### 21 **some cases -- well, it's there. I don't know** 

### 22 **how much it's a player in the market, but**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75**  **1 something that used to be called a kickspace**  

### 2 **heater or something where again, you're taking** 

### 3 **boiler water to this unit that transfers the** 

### 4 **heat to air, but it's different than a** 

### 5 **baseboard, right?** 

### 6 **So I guess my question again, so** 

### 7 **we can respond to the question, we need to** 

### 8 **understand what are you envisioning? What** 

### 9 **does this hydronic air handler look like?** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex, please.** 

### 11 **MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence** 

### 12 **Berkeley National Laboratory. The product** 

### 13 **there -- there are quite a few products out** 

### 14 **there that receive hot water from different** 

### 15 **sources. So in this case, the boiler is meant** 

### 16 **to represent an energy source. So similarly** 

### 17 **like in some cases, the water is provided by a** 

### 18 **water heater. That's it.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, John.** 

### 20 **MR. CYMBALSKY: I have a question** 

### 21 **for Phillip.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76**  **1 MR. CYMBALSKY: The water heater**  

### 2 **that you mentioned that provided heat, what** 

### 3 **gallon capacity do you generally supply those** 

### 4 **in?** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: If memory serves,** 

### 6 **that one is 55, 60, and 80.** 

### 7 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: John, please.** 

### 9 **MR. BUSSE: John Busse. I do** 

### 10 **recall in the past and possibly still present** 

### 11 **in the current time that there have been** 

### 12 **products offered by manufacturers that** 

### 13 **supplemented their boiler with a coil that fit** 

### 14 **into a ductwork so you could retrofit to a** 

### 15 **furnace, but then you could also add an** 

### 16 **indirect water heater or you could add a** 

### 17 **hydronic loop. So you could actually have** 

### 18 **three different heating modes going off of one** 

### 19 **boiler. And at the end, this was all part of** 

### 20 **manufacturers' literature at the time.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay.** 

### 22 **Move that microphone closer to you, please.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77**  **1 Thank you. You're next, Phillip.**  

### 2 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens.** 

### 3 **With respect to 9-6, there again, we see this** 

### 4 **increasing.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. I'm** 

### 6 **trying to make sure we hit all of these. What** 

### 7 **fractional of residential boiler is used in** 

### 8 **commercial applications? Do we have a guess** 

### 9 **on that?** 

### 10 **Jeff, it looks like you have a** 

### 11 **guess. No.** 

### 12 **You guys don't know? Frank?** 

### 13 **MR. STANONIK: Again, this was one** 

### 14 **of these things where at least in our** 

### 15 **preliminary discussions were not -- we're just** 

### 16 **not sure it really is significant to the** 

### 17 **analysis, in the sense that okay, if you have** 

### 18 **a residential boiler that's being used in a** 

### 19 **commercial application, and granted, we're** 

### 20 **assuming there's been some thought to provide** 

### 21 **a proper application, okay? Then, in fact,** 

### 22 **you've got a commercial application that at**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78**  **1 least to some degree is essentially a**  

### 2 **residential load or similar to a residential** 

### 3 **load. Again, let's assume we're talking about** 

### 4 **a fairly large-size boiler, 250,000 BTU input.** 

### 5 **Well, if you had a house that needed a boiler** 

### 6 **that operated at 250,000 BTUs per hour, and** 

### 7 **that product ended up in a commercial** 

### 8 **installation, again, there's a legitimate** 

### 9 **presumption that says well that happened** 

### 10 **because the load of that commercial** 

### 11 **application was to some degree similar to what** 

### 12 **the house's was.** 

### 13 **If that's all true, then what** 

### 14 **difference does it make whether it ended up in** 

### 15 **the house or in a small commercial** 

### 16 **establishment, relative to the efficiency.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky.** 

### 18 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So I think what we** 

### 19 **might be getting at here is that -- let's just** 

### 20 **say it went into a small commercial** 

### 21 **establishment, like a barber shop or** 

### 22 **something, so the hours of use, I think, over**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79**  **1 the year would be very different and so when**  

### 2 **we were to do an economic analysis of** 

### 3 **efficiency improvements, you'd have over the** 

### 4 **course of a year, even though it's the same** 

### 5 **exact boiler, they'd use it for less hours** 

### 6 **maybe in a barber shop that's only open 9 to** 

### 7 **5, where a house would be heating more hours.** 

### 8 **MR. STANONIK: The occupancy** 

### 9 **factor.** 

### 10 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Exactly. So I** 

### 11 **think that's part of it here.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs.** 

### 13 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 14 **I'm hearing some ambiguity. I read this** 

### 15 **question very differently from the way Frank** 

### 16 **seems to have read it, that the application** 

### 17 **I'm most familiar with is actually using a** 

### 18 **train of condensing residential boilers as the** 

### 19 **heating source for multi-family apartment** 

### 20 **complex. That would be quite likely a** 

### 21 **commercial application in the ASHRAE 90.1** 

### 22 **sense of its number of stories, but at least**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80**  **1 during the '70s when commercial condensing**  

### 2 **appliances were not as common, and residential** 

### 3 **ones were less expensive than getting the same** 

### 4 **capacity with a smaller number of commercial** 

### 5 **appliances, it was quite a fad to do that. I** 

### 6 **have no idea if it's continued. I have no** 

### 7 **idea if it's widespread, but there certainly** 

### 8 **are multi-family organizations and people with** 

### 9 **experience in places.** 

### 10 **FHA is likely to have somebody who** 

### 11 **has a sense of what they've been doing in** 

### 12 **their own properties. But that was the** 

### 13 **application I was understanding from this --** 

### 14 **from the phrasing you used. And I think it's** 

### 15 **very different from what Frank was thinking** 

### 16 **about.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: And also rebound** 

### 18 **effects. Thoughts on rebound effect?** 

### 19 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 20 **Our Department of Theology is preparing a** 

### 21 **response.** 

### 22 **(Laughter.)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Frank.**  

### 2 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 3 **AHRI. We did talk about this one and again,** 

### 4 **just thinking in previous rulemakings, our** 

### 5 **position is we acknowledge, there is some** 

### 6 **rebound effect, but unfortunately, we've not** 

### 7 **really seen definitive studies that can give** 

### 8 **you a solid number. And at this point, we're** 

### 9 **not -- whatever number DOE has used for past** 

### 10 **analyses, I would say at the moment is as good** 

### 11 **as any. We just haven't seen anything to add** 

### 12 **to that general knowledge of that particular** 

### 13 **phenomenon.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. STANONIK: But it exists, we** 

### 16 **know that.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 18 **Now we're moving on.** 

### 19 **MR. DILLON: Thank you for your** 

### 20 **input. Next we'll be discussing the life** 

### 21 **cycle and payback period analysis which will** 

### 22 **further be referred to as the LCC and PBP.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82**  **1 These analyses will allow DOE to**  

### 2 **evaluate the net effect in terms of purchase** 

### 3 **and operating costs that in an amended energy** 

### 4 **conservation standard would have on the** 

### 5 **consumers of residential boilers. This** 

### 6 **economic analysis is from the consumer's** 

### 7 **perspective and the results represent the** 

### 8 **difference between the baseline and standard** 

### 9 **cases.** 

### 10 **As for the methodology, the LCC is** 

### 11 **equivalent to the customer price plus the sum** 

### 12 **of the annual operating costs over the** 

### 13 **analysis period, the baseline lifetime divided** 

### 14 **by the average operating hours, then** 

### 15 **discounted to a particular base year.** 

### 16 **This analysis is conducted using a** 

### 17 **Monte Carlo simulation that models the** 

### 18 **uncertainty and the variability of the inputs** 

### 19 **by characterizing the inputs by probability** 

### 20 **distributions. This model will be implemented** 

### 21 **using Microsoft Excel combined with Crystal** 

### 22 **Ball add-in.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83**  **1 Inputs required by the LCC and PBP**  

### 2 **consist of a variety of inputs, some of which** 

### 3 **have been covered in previous sections such as** 

### 4 **equipment costs, markups, annual energy** 

### 5 **consumption. However, there are additional** 

### 6 **inputs required that have not been discussed** 

### 7 **which consist of electricity prices,** 

### 8 **maintenance and repair costs, installation** 

### 9 **costs, product lifetimes and discount rates.** 

### 10 **The following comments will** 

### 11 **request primarily input on data as mentioned** 

### 12 **in the past discussion. DOE requests** 

### 13 **comments, 10-1 through 10-8.** 

### 14 **Let's start with 10-1. DOE** 

### 15 **requests input on the use of the Monte Carlo** 

### 16 **simulation and probability distribution** 

### 17 **approach for conducting the LCC and PBP.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Any comments on** 

### 19 **that one? No comments?** 

### 20 **MR. KLEISS: It's kind of a -- the** 

### 21 **Monte Carlo simulation, it's beyond the scope** 

### 22 **of anything that I've been exposed to. I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84**  **1 don't have any objection to it, but I really**  

### 2 **don't have any knowledge of the process.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, John? Same** 

### 4 **thing, okay. Moving on.** 

### 5 **MR. DILLON: Additional comments** 

### 6 **for the life-cycle costs and payback analysis,** 

### 7 **10-2, DOE requests data that will help** 

### 8 **characterize the current mix of boiler** 

### 9 **efficiencies in the market. 10-3, DOE seeks** 

### 10 **input on the planned approach for estimating** 

### 11 **future energy prices. 10-4, DOE requests** 

### 12 **input on the maintenance and repair cost** 

### 13 **approach. 10-5, DOE seeks input on the** 

### 14 **proposed installation cost approach. 10-6,** 

### 15 **DOE welcomes comment on product lifetimes for** 

### 16 **residential boilers. 10-7, DOE seeks input on** 

### 17 **its planned approach for estimating discount** 

### 18 **rates for residential consumers. 10-8, DOE** 

### 19 **seeks comment on the distribution of energy** 

### 20 **efficiencies for boilers in the absence of an** 

### 21 **amended energy conservation standard.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's just take**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85**  **1 these one at a time.**  

### 2 **Jeff?** 

### 3 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,** 

### 4 **Lochinvar. And this relates to 10-4, 10-5,** 

### 5 **and 10-6 to some degree. We agree with Frank** 

### 6 **Stanonik's and AHRI's suggestion that DOE use** 

### 7 **past work on this as a resource for this** 

### 8 **information. But in the case of these three** 

### 9 **inputs in particular, I think it's important** 

### 10 **that they look at more recent history because** 

### 11 **as the high efficiency boiler market has** 

### 12 **matured, I'm sure that there have been some** 

### 13 **cost savings. There's been some efficiencies** 

### 14 **of scale that have come about and that you may** 

### 15 **see some decline in in costs of high** 

### 16 **efficiency appliances and possibly some** 

### 17 **increases of lower-efficiency products.** 

### 18 **Also, the characteristic that was** 

### 19 **written in here within the document that's** 

### 20 **behind this, there were some assumptions that** 

### 21 **there would be more higher costs, more** 

### 22 **specialized equipment that would be used on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86**  **1 some high-efficiency products.**  

### 2 **Well, there are certainly** 

### 3 **manufacturers that create some distinctive** 

### 4 **parts for even lower-efficiency appliances.** 

### 5 **So that that not be taken as a rule, but** 

### 6 **rather they actually evaluate the data for** 

### 7 **what it is and look at more recent history.** 

### 8 **Also, related to that, for the** 

### 9 **longevity when doing the calculations, again,** 

### 10 **please look at the more recent data because** 

### 11 **there have been changes in products, a** 

### 12 **maturing of installation, maturing of water** 

### 13 **treatment chemicals and things of that sort** 

### 14 **that might help to provide longer lifetimes** 

### 15 **for condensing appliances. And similarly,** 

### 16 **there have been changes in water quality that** 

### 17 **have negatively affected some steam boilers** 

### 18 **which have historically had extremely long** 

### 19 **lifespans. You might see some shorter** 

### 20 **lifespans if you look at more recently** 

### 21 **historical data. So again, I just encourage** 

### 22 **you to use the most current data on this.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Phillip.**  

### 2 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens.** 

### 3 **We agree and support in addition to those** 

### 4 **comments we would like to include a note that** 

### 5 **recent improvements and technology for** 

### 6 **retrofits including PEX piping for water** 

### 7 **connections and flexible polypropylene venting** 

### 8 **for high-efficiency appliances have allowed** 

### 9 **the retrofits to be more common in older** 

### 10 **installations.** 

### 11 **And as far as item 10-4, input on** 

### 12 **maintenance and repair costs, simply put, most** 

### 13 **homeowners do not maintain their equipment** 

### 14 **sufficiently to have a significant improvement** 

### 15 **in the life.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky.** 

### 17 **MR. CYMBALSKY: For the piping you** 

### 18 **were just mentioning, was that specifically to** 

### 19 **replacing a non-condensing with a condensing** 

### 20 **boiler or were you getting -- is that what you** 

### 21 **were getting at there?** 

### 22 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88**  **1 MR. CYMBALSKY: If you could**  

### 2 **provide data on those costs, we would be** 

### 3 **extremely happy with that. Thank you.** 

### 4 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, sir.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: And I note** 

### 6 **following Jeff's comments on 10-4 through 10-** 

### 7 **6, can we -- can you say now even though most** 

### 8 **homeowners don't maintain boilers, frequency** 

### 9 **and cost of maintenance or major repair** 

### 10 **issues, can you provide information about that** 

### 11 **now? Phillip, I'm looking at you.** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: That would take** 

### 13 **some digging up. I will look into that.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 15 **Frank, your thoughts? Go ahead.** 

### 16 **MR. STANONIK: Not on that** 

### 17 **question.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, go ahead.** 

### 19 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 20 **AHRI. Okay, a couple of things because we are** 

### 21 **talking about residential boilers, I mean** 

### 22 **first of all, it needs to be recognized that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89**  **1 unlike with warm-air furnaces, the residential**  

### 2 **boiler market is significantly more** 

### 3 **replacement market. There are new** 

### 4 **installations going on, no question, and a lot** 

### 5 **of those are related to increased popularity** 

### 6 **of radiant heating and things of that nature.** 

### 7 **But in terms of the numbers, the numbers --** 

### 8 **it's clearly indicative that residential** 

### 9 **boiler market is driven by the replacement** 

### 10 **market.** 

### 11 **And there's also, let's say, a** 

### 12 **significant regionality to the boiler market** 

### 13 **in the U.S. There's a heavy concentration and** 

### 14 **then pockets. But that being -- that's the** 

### 15 **situation. And so certainly for recent years,** 

### 16 **and hopefully we will be able to show you the** 

### 17 **data, there has been an increase in the** 

### 18 **percentage of condensing boilers that are** 

### 19 **being sold in the United States. And again,** 

### 20 **most of those are going into residential** 

### 21 **replacements.** 

### 22 **The point of this -- well, this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90**  **1 long diatribe here perhaps is that when DOE**  

### 2 **looks at the installation costs and** 

### 3 **particularly the installation costs where** 

### 4 **you're going to be pulling out a non** 

### 5 **condensing/condensing product, for this** 

### 6 **product, I think it will be more important to** 

### 7 **recognize that because this has been going on** 

### 8 **for boilers now for at least ten years in** 

### 9 **terms of these -- pulling out the -- the** 

### 10 **availability of condensing products, many --** 

### 11 **most of those replacements have probably been** 

### 12 **the easy ones. Because if it became too** 

### 13 **expensive, the consumer just wouldn't do it,** 

### 14 **if they weren't forced to.** 

### 15 **And so when DOE looks at okay, in** 

### 16 **terms of the effect of whatever regulation,** 

### 17 **whatever standard it's going to impose, it's** 

### 18 **important that they realize, okay, there's** 

### 19 **already been a number of households that made** 

### 20 **the switch. The remaining population of** 

### 21 **houses that might make the switch is whatever** 

### 22 **it's going to be. But the percentage of those**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91**  **1 that would have a potentially difficult**  

### 2 **installation which would require maybe some** 

### 3 **rework of the site, if you will, is going to** 

### 4 **be higher than if you just looked at all** 

### 5 **existing boiler installations because again,** 

### 6 **some of the people have made the change and** 

### 7 **those that have in most cases did it because** 

### 8 **it wasn't a major disruption.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs.** 

### 10 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 11 **A couple of observations. One of them is in** 

### 12 **terms of setting the minimum standards.** 

### 13 **Jeff's comments are echoing in my mind. Are** 

### 14 **there technologies extant that cannot support** 

### 15 **condensing applications, metallurgy or** 

### 16 **whatever?** 

### 17 **But the other one is in response** 

### 18 **to Frank's comment that the easy ones have** 

### 19 **been done. We were involved, Meg and I,** 

### 20 **particular with the American Gas Association,** 

### 21 **a pretty extensive process last year looking** 

### 22 **at possible issues that would come from the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92**  **1 northern standard requiring condensing on**  

### 2 **furnaces. And particularly an examination in** 

### 3 **conjunction with PHCC and ACCA at what these** 

### 4 **installation issues might be and what the** 

### 5 **frequency might be of very hard problems.** 

### 6 **I found myself very encouraged** 

### 7 **that no one expected this to be a very high** 

### 8 **fraction and something which even if we got to** 

### 9 **a condensing standard for boilers would be** 

### 10 **feasible to handle with a -- call it a pre** 

### 11 **approved waiver process.** 

### 12 **So recognizing that there are** 

### 13 **going to be situations, some rowhouses have** 

### 14 **been named as a conspicuous example. I think** 

### 15 **that I'm encouraged by what's come out from** 

### 16 **Phillip, in particular, that we're seeing much** 

### 17 **wider use or beginning to see use of the** 

### 18 **flexible polypropylene venting systems that** 

### 19 **are much more adaptable, again from Europe.** 

### 20 **And we're seeing a lot of other things that do** 

### 21 **point toward Jeff's conclusion of potential** 

### 22 **for learning curves on installation as well.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93**  **1 Finally, while I've got the mic**  

### 2 **on, I believe that we'll find importantly that** 

### 3 **there's still a difference in the maintenance** 

### 4 **practices for the oil boiler market than for** 

### 5 **the gas boiler market. That the service** 

### 6 **providers for oil I'm quite certain will** 

### 7 **continue to strongly recommend the annual** 

### 8 **service to de-soot and check combustion** 

### 9 **efficiency, at least until they're very** 

### 10 **comfortable with the ultra-low sulfur** 

### 11 **regulations.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Take a** 

### 13 **peek at the box here. Several of these have** 

### 14 **not been addressed yet. I don't think we have** 

### 15 **addressed estimating discount rates. We** 

### 16 **haven't talked about the current mix of boiler** 

### 17 **efficiencies. I know there are others as** 

### 18 **well.** 

### 19 **MR. KLEISS: Energy prices.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, thank you.** 

### 21 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Hasn't** 

### 22 **OMB taken the discount rate question out of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94**  **1 our hands?**  

### 2 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, I don't think** 

### 3 **we need to talk about discount rates at this** 

### 4 **meeting.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Jeff.** 

### 6 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,** 

### 7 **Lochinvar. On Item 10-8, DOE seeks comments** 

### 8 **on the appropriate distribution of energy** 

### 9 **efficiencies for residential boilers in the** 

### 10 **absence of amended energy conservation** 

### 11 **standards. I can't say much to this other** 

### 12 **than our expectation and experience so far is** 

### 13 **that, when appliances are replaced, they are** 

### 14 **almost never replaced with appliances that are** 

### 15 **less efficient. So if anything, the attrition** 

### 16 **will be towards higher efficiency appliances.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 18 **Frank.** 

### 19 **MR. STANONIK: Simply because it** 

### 20 **was asked, in terms of DOE's handling of** 

### 21 **future energy prices, as far as our concerns,** 

### 22 **I'll say is that there's lots of news out**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95**  **1 there and information about the change in US's**  

### 2 **natural gas supply. I guess I'm willing to** 

### 3 **defer to whatever information gets traded** 

### 4 **between DOE and AGA as to where they think** 

### 5 **future natural gas price projections are going** 

### 6 **to be.** 

### 7 **As far as oil, prices of oil, I** 

### 8 **guess I really haven't looked at that of late** 

### 9 **to see what projections exist for future** 

### 10 **prices. Although I've not heard any** 

### 11 **suggestions that those are going to drop** 

### 12 **appreciably.** 

### 13 **MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky,** 

### 14 **DOE. So we'll typically or exclusively use** 

### 15 **the EIA projections in these models.** 

### 16 **Obviously, shale gas plays a big part in their** 

### 17 **projections and so -- and they update their** 

### 18 **forecasts annually. We'll pick up any changes** 

### 19 **in the market based on their work.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs.** 

### 21 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. DOE has** 

### 22 **made enormous progress in doing its modeling**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96**  **1 in many aspects of this proceeding. And it**  

### 2 **might not be too much to ask to think about** 

### 3 **changing the escalation rate implicit in the** 

### 4 **EIA forecast as an EIA base and a high cost to** 

### 5 **low cost. There's a fair amount of empirical** 

### 6 **evidence out there now that natural gas** 

### 7 **current prices do not reflect replacement** 

### 8 **costs even for shale gas and that the bubble** 

### 9 **may not last as long as expected.** 

### 10 **I don't know. I'm not in that** 

### 11 **business, but it seems that it would be** 

### 12 **beneficial to the process to change the** 

### 13 **escalation coefficient just to show what** 

### 14 **happens to your analyses as you're under way.** 

### 15 **It might not be good for my side.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Phillip.** 

### 17 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens.** 

### 18 **As for Item 10-8, we see an opposite trend** 

### 19 **from what Lochinvar sees. We see the fact** 

### 20 **that especially in today's economy, people** 

### 21 **simply when they need a replacement, they will** 

### 22 **often go with the lowest-cost replacement. So**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97**  **1 if it weren't for the energy conservation**  

### 2 **standards and requirements, the lower** 

### 3 **efficiency products which inherently cost less** 

### 4 **would become more popular and the country** 

### 5 **would use more energy.** 

### 6 **And on top of that, there's the** 

### 7 **added benefit of the incentive programs and** 

### 8 **the Energy Star programs which further give** 

### 9 **enforcement or encouragement to go with higher** 

### 10 **efficiencies. We strongly support higher** 

### 11 **efficiencies.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Does HTP serve a** 

### 13 **region of the country or --** 

### 14 **MR. STEPHENS: We are nationwide,** 

### 15 **residential boilers, commercial boilers, water** 

### 16 **heaters also.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: John.** 

### 18 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So could the** 

### 19 **manufacturers provide data on how their** 

### 20 **product offerings have become more Energy Star** 

### 21 **over time, is that something -- I think you** 

### 22 **would track how many you make that meet the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98**  **1 Energy Star designation.**  

### 2 **MR. STEPHENS: We only operate in** 

### 3 **the high-efficiency retail market, so we don't** 

### 4 **have a bias, but we may be able to draw some** 

### 5 **conclusions for the Energy Star.** 

### 6 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, thank you.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey.** 

### 8 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 9 **John, I think that Energy Star is making an** 

### 10 **effort to track the fraction of the market** 

### 11 **that is being supplied with Energy Star across** 

### 12 **all its portfolio.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff?** 

### 14 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Never have too** 

### 15 **much data over here, Harvey.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff, please.** 

### 17 **MR. KLEISS: I recently did some -** 

### 18 **- just going on the age of our directory of** 

### 19 **residential boilers and looked at the number** 

### 20 **of different products. Now this does not** 

### 21 **reflect sales of units, but the number of** 

### 22 **different products that are offered. And**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99**  **1 there is a consistent shift towards higher**  

### 2 **efficiency products. I think that now as far** 

### 3 **as natural gas products, it was something like** 

### 4 **60-some odd percent of them qualified for the** 

### 5 **Energy Star as far as being 85 percent, and** 

### 6 **not quite as large a percentage of the oil** 

### 7 **boilers, but still a substantial amount.** 

### 8 **Energy Star program is currently** 

### 9 **reviewing raising those efficiency levels and** 

### 10 **sort of redrawing the lines so that it drives** 

### 11 **products towards higher efficiency level.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Phillip.** 

### 13 **MR. STEPHENS: I agree. We've** 

### 14 **done a similar analysis and from what we've** 

### 15 **seen, a lot of those higher-efficiency** 

### 16 **appliances are coming in as imports from** 

### 17 **countries that have higher efficiency** 

### 18 **requirements than the U.S.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay.** 

### 20 **MR. DILLON: All right, we're** 

### 21 **going to switch over to the shipments** 

### 22 **analysis. The next two slides, we'll be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100**  **1 discussing the shipments analysis and the**  

### 2 **national impacts analysis. The shipments** 

### 3 **analysis outputs will be utilized during the** 

### 4 **NIA.** 

### 5 **The purpose of the shipments** 

### 6 **analysis is to project future shipments for** 

### 7 **the base case and standard case by product** 

### 8 **class beginning at the expected compliance** 

### 9 **year of the standard. These shipment** 

### 10 **projections will be used to calculate effects** 

### 11 **of an amended energy conservation standard on** 

### 12 **boiler shipments.** 

### 13 **The methodology for the analysis** 

### 14 **involves developing shipments projections** 

### 15 **based on an analysis of key market drivers for** 

### 16 **boilers. DOE may characterize the projected** 

### 17 **production of the shipments of boilers using** 

### 18 **economic and industry-related indicators.** 

### 19 **Shipments projections will be** 

### 20 **determined for both replacement and new** 

### 21 **construction cases. DOE intends to rely on** 

### 22 **publicly available data sources including**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101**  **1 information provided by manufacturers,**  

### 2 **industry organizations, market reports and** 

### 3 **historical shipments data.** 

### 4 **DOE welcomes comments on items 11-** 

### 5 **1 through 11-2.** 

### 6 **DOE seeks disaggregated historical** 

### 7 **shipment data based on the current product** 

### 8 **class and efficiency levels. 11-2, DOE seeks** 

### 9 **input on the potential impact that an amended** 

### 10 **standard would have on the residential boiler** 

### 11 **shipments.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Any comment on** 

### 13 **these? No comment at this time.** 

### 14 **MR. DILLON: Next up for** 

### 15 **discussion is the national impact analysis.** 

### 16 **The purpose of the national impact analysis is** 

### 17 **to determine the national energy savings and** 

### 18 **the national consumer economic impacts, the** 

### 19 **potential energy conservation standards for** 

### 20 **each product class in terms of net present** 

### 21 **value. The national impact analysis builds** 

### 22 **off outputs from several of the preceding**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102**  **1 analyses.**  

### 2 **As for the methodology, DOE** 

### 3 **intends to calculate the annual equipment** 

### 4 **expenditures by multiplying the price per unit** 

### 5 **by projected shipments for the base case and** 

### 6 **standard cases. DOE also determines the** 

### 7 **national energy consumption by multiplying the** 

### 8 **unit energy consumption per boiler by** 

### 9 **projected shipments for the base cases and** 

### 10 **standard cases.** 

### 11 **DOE then determines the** 

### 12 **differences between the base case and standard** 

### 13 **case scenarios, resulting in the national** 

### 14 **annual energy savings and increased** 

### 15 **expenditures in dollars. The difference** 

### 16 **between energy savings and increased** 

### 17 **expenditures is a net savings or the net cost** 

### 18 **for each year. The net present value is** 

### 19 **calculated as the difference between the** 

### 20 **present value of operating cost savings and** 

### 21 **the present value of total installed costs.** 

### 22 **DOE seeks comment regarding the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103**  **1 distribution of boiler efficiencies in the**  

### 2 **absence of standards.** 

### 3 **No comments?** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Jeff.** 

### 5 **MR. KLEISS: I couldn't pass up** 

### 6 **more than two in a row without comment.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Good.** 

### 8 **MR. KLEISS: In the document that** 

### 9 **DOE put out, it referred to the roll-up** 

### 10 **methodology for figuring this out. And I just** 

### 11 **want to sort of reiterate the point of** 

### 12 **considering installed cost while going through** 

### 13 **this roll-up. And if you do look at, say, the** 

### 14 **AHRI directory and sort of do the spread of** 

### 15 **the products that are offered, you will find** 

### 16 **that there is a gap in product that's offered.** 

### 17 **Very few products are in that range of** 

### 18 **efficiencies because you cross the boundary of** 

### 19 **condensing products. But the exhaust** 

### 20 **temperatures are high enough that the only way** 

### 21 **to vent it is with corrosion-resistant metal** 

### 22 **venting material which is much more expensive**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104**  **1 than when you get to a higher level of**  

### 2 **condensing appliance where you then have cool** 

### 3 **enough flue gas temperatures that you can use** 

### 4 **polymer venting. Much lower installation** 

### 5 **costs comparatively. And it's that installed** 

### 6 **cost that creates this gap. So in the roll-up** 

### 7 **analysis, if you get to a point where you** 

### 8 **cross that threshold, just be aware that there** 

### 9 **is going to be a gap there, and that needs to** 

### 10 **be considered.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. You see** 

### 12 **the comment box. Additional thoughts on this?** 

### 13 **MR. DILLON: 12-1, DOE seeks** 

### 14 **comment on the appropriate assumptions to use** 

### 15 **regarding long-run changes in residential** 

### 16 **boiler energy efficiency independent of** 

### 17 **amending energy conservation standards.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: No comment here?** 

### 19 **Yes, Frank.** 

### 20 **MR. STANONIK: Again, probably** 

### 21 **more of a question than a comment. And it's,** 

### 22 **in part, because I just don't remember how**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105**  **1 this was addressed in previous rulemakings,**  

### 2 **but if DOE looks at the scenario of the** 

### 3 **absence -- or independent of amending energy** 

### 4 **conservation standards, does the analysis** 

### 5 **factor in the existence of incentive programs** 

### 6 **and the continued existence of those programs?** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Phillip?** 

### 8 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens.** 

### 9 **A question. Does the DOE analysis take into** 

### 10 **account the imports as well as domestic** 

### 11 **manufacturers or combine the market as one** 

### 12 **lump sum?** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: If there are no** 

### 14 **more additional comments to this box, we're** 

### 15 **going to move on.** 

### 16 **MR. DILLON: Is that it? I'm** 

### 17 **going to pass it over to --** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Phillip, yes,** 

### 19 **please.** 

### 20 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 21 **just a follow-up question. Is it taken as a** 

### 22 **separate evaluation or as part of the entire**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106**  **1 evaluation? Is there any way we can look at**  

### 2 **that as a separate?** 

### 3 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So where we do** 

### 4 **separate it out is in the manufacturing** 

### 5 **impact. We do look at the impact on domestic** 

### 6 **manufacturers separately on the standard, but** 

### 7 **as for doing the base line for the shipments,** 

### 8 **which is what I think we're asking for here on** 

### 9 **comment is we're just generally looking for** 

### 10 **the efficiency trend of the whole boiler** 

### 11 **market. We don't necessarily care if it's an** 

### 12 **import or domestically produced.** 

### 13 **What we're trying to do right is** 

### 14 **the math and the energy savings based on what** 

### 15 **would happen in the market without the** 

### 16 **standard there anyway. And so when you impose** 

### 17 **the standard, then you can do the math** 

### 18 **correctly to get the right national energy** 

### 19 **savings.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: So moving on to** 

### 21 **NOPR analyses, the downstream analyses.** 

### 22 **MR. DILLON: I'm going to pass**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 107**  **1 this off to Alex Lekov.**  

### 2 **MR. LEKOV: So far we have been** 

### 3 **talking about the analysis that's related to** 

### 4 **the next phase of the rulemaking which is the** 

### 5 **preliminary analysis phase. During the next** 

### 6 **several slides, myself and Catherine will be** 

### 7 **talking about analysis that actually will** 

### 8 **start in the Notice of Proposed Rule phase** 

### 9 **which is down the line in 2014.** 

### 10 **So on this slide, you see the** 

### 11 **explanation about analysis related to** 

### 12 **developing consumer subgroups. So in addition** 

### 13 **to the main flow of consumers, the Department** 

### 14 **also analyzes the economic impacts of energy** 

### 15 **conservation standards on consumers, including** 

### 16 **subgroups who may be disproportionately** 

### 17 **impacted compared to the general population.** 

### 18 **The approach taken in this case is** 

### 19 **to utilize the primary life-cycle cost** 

### 20 **analysis tool by developing input specific to** 

### 21 **each of the consumer -- the considered** 

### 22 **consumer subgroups. And for this particular**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 108**  **1 analysis, the Department seeks input as to**  

### 2 **what consumer subgroups are appropriate to** 

### 3 **evaluate for residential boilers.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Consumer subgroups.** 

### 5 **Harvey.** 

### 6 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Alex,** 

### 7 **I'm glad the Department is doing that. I only** 

### 8 **hope that the Department will be sensitive,** 

### 9 **not only to the nature of the potentially** 

### 10 **impacted groups, low-income, elderly,** 

### 11 **whatever, but to the geographic distribution** 

### 12 **of residential boiler sales that the** 

### 13 **population of low-income, Southeastern or** 

### 14 **Southwestern boiler users is probably a fairly** 

### 15 **small fraction of the population of boiler** 

### 16 **users. There are going to be geographic** 

### 17 **weighting factors that may not have been** 

### 18 **important in some of the product classes.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 20 **Additional comments on this subgroup analysis?** 

### 21 **MR. LEKOV: So --** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, hold on.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 109**  **1 MR. STANONIK: I'm processing**  

### 2 **Harvey's comment there. And it's a good** 

### 3 **point. Just to reinforce, but also make sure** 

### 4 **that as we've mentioned, clearly the** 

### 5 **predominant, not exclusive, but predominant** 

### 6 **distribution of residential boilers in the** 

### 7 **U.S. tends to be in the Northeast and the** 

### 8 **region we're in. And so yes, I think you** 

### 9 **should look at -- at least consider the** 

### 10 **respective distribution of subgroups within** 

### 11 **that particular geographic area. It certainly** 

### 12 **would be different than the national average.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, thank you.** 

### 14 **MR. LEKOV: Thank you.** 

### 15 **MS. RIVEST: I'll be going over** 

### 16 **the manufacturer impact analysis, and the** 

### 17 **purpose of the manufacturer impact analysis is** 

### 18 **threefold. It's to assess the impacts of** 

### 19 **amended standards on manufacturers as well as** 

### 20 **to identify subgroups that may be more** 

### 21 **severely impacted than the industry as a** 

### 22 **whole, and to examine the impact of cumulative**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 110**  **1 regulatory burden on manufacturers.**  

### 2 **And the method that DOE uses to do** 

### 3 **this includes analyzing industry cash flow and** 

### 4 **net present value through the use of the** 

### 5 **Government Regulatory Impact Model. And DOE** 

### 6 **also conducts interviews with manufacturers to** 

### 7 **refine the inputs of the GRIM model and to** 

### 8 **address any qualitative issues they may have.** 

### 9 **So I'll open the floor up for** 

### 10 **discussion. Item 14-1 seeks comments on the** 

### 11 **appropriate manufacturer subgroups should be** 

### 12 **considered. Item 14-2 welcomes comments on** 

### 13 **other existing regulations or pending** 

### 14 **regulations to consider in its examination of** 

### 15 **cumulative regulatory burden. And Item 14-3** 

### 16 **requests industry feedback on the names and** 

### 17 **the number of small business manufacturers.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Frank.** 

### 19 **MR. STANONIK: I was trying to see** 

### 20 **if I could find it quickly, again, since I** 

### 21 **don't have the command as to what DOE defines** 

### 22 **as a small business.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 111**  **1 MS. RIVEST: I think for boilers,**  

### 2 **it's under 500 employees.** 

### 3 **MR. STANONIK: Under 500** 

### 4 **employees. Without knowing the exact numbers,** 

### 5 **first of all, again, the residential boiler** 

### 6 **market in the U.S. pales in comparison to** 

### 7 **residential warm air equipment. And there** 

### 8 **still are a significant number of** 

### 9 **manufacturers that do participate in that** 

### 10 **market. And many of those manufacturers also** 

### 11 **make commercial boilers, but I would venture** 

### 12 **that if you were to just look at the** 

### 13 **residential boiler market, many, if not all of** 

### 14 **them, may be considered small businesses.** 

### 15 **We'll try and help refine that, but I think a** 

### 16 **lot of the people in the boiler business,** 

### 17 **particularly if they're making residential** 

### 18 **boilers may end up being considered small** 

### 19 **businesses.** 

### 20 **And I would say even if they** 

### 21 **weren't, I think they still need certain** 

### 22 **considerations that would be consistent with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 112**  **1 that, again, because it still is a relatively**  

### 2 **small market with a significant number of** 

### 3 **companies still participating.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Jeff.** 

### 5 **MR. KLEISS: I would just say that** 

### 6 **with the manufacturer impact analysis and** 

### 7 **Government Regulatory Impact Model, it's not** 

### 8 **lost on us that the acronyms are MIA and GRIM.** 

### 9 **(Laughter.)** 

### 10 **That said, I would say on Item 14-** 

### 11 **1 that it's certainly our position that** 

### 12 **evaluating or making decisions based on the** 

### 13 **manufacturing processes that are used doesn't** 

### 14 **really make sense to us. The decisions made** 

### 15 **should be based on the effect of the product.** 

### 16 **And if a manufacturer needs to adjust their** 

### 17 **processes in order to provide what's needed** 

### 18 **for the industry, then that would be our** 

### 19 **position.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Before you move on,** 

### 21 **Phillip, do you want to chime in here?** 

### 22 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes. From our**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 113**  **1 perspective, we are seeing consolidation in**  

### 2 **the industry. A lot of the smaller -- some of** 

### 3 **the smaller boiler manufacturers are being** 

### 4 **purchased by larger companies and I'm not sure** 

### 5 **how that classification holds whether when you** 

### 6 **look at the business, you look at the** 

### 7 **corporate entity or just the small business.** 

### 8 **But that will make a distinction. We are a** 

### 9 **small business relative to a lot of the other** 

### 10 **boiler manufacturers.** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So for our** 

### 12 **purposes, it would have to be 500 employees or** 

### 13 **less including parents and subsidiaries.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff, back to you.** 

### 15 **MR. KLEISS: Commenting on the** 

### 16 **second item, Item 14-2, as far as the** 

### 17 **regulatory burden. DOE, EPA, FTC, the** 

### 18 **environmental requirements of REACH and RoHS** 

### 19 **2, the regulatory burden that's come out has** 

### 20 **been extraordinary, staggering for us. I** 

### 21 **appreciate DOE considering the regulatory** 

### 22 **burden and how it's impacting us and ask you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 114**  **1 to be as gentle as possible.**  

### 2 **(Laughter.)** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Phillip.** 

### 4 **MR. STEPHENS: We second.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Do we** 

### 6 **have comment on 14-3, industry feedback on the** 

### 7 **number and names of small businesses?** 

### 8 **Frank, can you provide that** 

### 9 **information?** 

### 10 **MR. STANONIK: Yes, I mean I think** 

### 11 **we should be able to give some specific answer** 

### 12 **to that question, yes.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 14 **MS. RIVEST: Thank you, and I'll** 

### 15 **pass it back over to Alex.** 

### 16 **MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence** 

### 17 **Berkeley National Laboratory. So as part of** 

### 18 **the NOPR phase, DOE is also mandated to report** 

### 19 **environmental effects of potential energy** 

### 20 **conservation standards. This is done both in** 

### 21 **terms of physical quantities and in terms of** 

### 22 **dollar values. So the physical quantities are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 115**  **1 calculated using EIA's NEMS model, which**  

### 2 **reports effects related to emissions as listed** 

### 3 **here on the slide.** 

### 4 **The monetization, which reports** 

### 5 **essentially the dollar effect of the reduced** 

### 6 **emission is performed using values developed** 

### 7 **by interagency reviews, essentially, which** 

### 8 **represent the current social cost of carbon.** 

### 9 **For this analysis, DOE seeks input** 

### 10 **on the approach to conduct the physical** 

### 11 **emissions impacts, as well as on the approach** 

### 12 **to use for the estimating the momentary** 

### 13 **benefits.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Comments? Yes,** 

### 15 **Frank.** 

### 16 **MR. STANONIK: Again, Frank** 

### 17 **Stanonik, AHRI. More of a question. And in** 

### 18 **particular, looking at the framework document,** 

### 19 **in the discussion about the current estimates** 

### 20 **of the monetization of CO2 emissions, the** 

### 21 **information provided expressed in 2011 dollars** 

### 22 **is that the estimates, and I'm just going to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 116**  **1 read them because of what they are. The**  

### 2 **estimates were $6.10, $25.04, $41, and $77.70.** 

### 3 **That's a range, a factor of 10.** 

### 4 **And so I think in order for us to** 

### 5 **try and work with DOE on this, I question what** 

### 6 **number do you use and how do you decide which** 

### 7 **of those? This is not a tightly packed range.** 

### 8 **It's almost like well, what did you have in** 

### 9 **your pocket today and that's going to be the** 

### 10 **price. I just don't -- it's hard for us to --** 

### 11 **we're concerned this is a significant factor** 

### 12 **or could be a significant factor. And yet we** 

### 13 **still don't really have a good grasp of how** 

### 14 **you analyze that with that kind of a range of** 

### 15 **costs.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 17 **MR. LEKOV: So DOE does not make** 

### 18 **an assessment of these values. DOE simply --** 

### 19 **DOE's analyses report the results that will** 

### 20 **come as a result of applying this value to the** 

### 21 **physical quantities.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Frank.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 117**  **1 MR. STANONIK: Okay, I understood**  

### 2 **your answer, Alex, but that doesn't help.** 

### 3 **That just says okay -- that's kind of like** 

### 4 **saying well, if you could get this much money** 

### 5 **in terms of the CO2 reduction, then this is** 

### 6 **what the effect would be. But in terms of all** 

### 7 **the other stuff that's done in this kind of** 

### 8 **analysis, I think the analysis is driven to** 

### 9 **try to come to some concrete conclusion or** 

### 10 **have some, as best as can be done, some real** 

### 11 **world information. And we get to this and** 

### 12 **it's like well, here's these numbers out here** 

### 13 **and we're just going to look at what the** 

### 14 **numbers mean. But it doesn't have that -- to** 

### 15 **me, it doesn't go to that next step and say** 

### 16 **okay, but for our analysis and if this is** 

### 17 **considered in this rulemaking, this would be** 

### 18 **the value of the CO2 emissions. There's no** 

### 19 **fixed number. It could be this, it could be** 

### 20 **that. Well, the cost of natural gas could be** 

### 21 **10 cents a therm and it could be $48 a therm.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 118**  **1 MR. CYMBALSKY: So these values**  

### 2 **were given to us to use by OIRA and, you know,** 

### 3 **the range actually implies that there is a lot** 

### 4 **of uncertainty as to what this cost could be.** 

### 5 **And so I think it does add value** 

### 6 **to show the range because, in fact, nobody** 

### 7 **wants to actually pin the tail on the donkey** 

### 8 **here, right?** 

### 9 **And this relates since it's** 

### 10 **natural gas mostly we're talking about. I** 

### 11 **wouldn't suspect this would be a big economic** 

### 12 **part of the rule. So thankfully we're not** 

### 13 **burning a lot of coal in this rule, so I think** 

### 14 **we're okay.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: You see the comment** 

### 16 **box. Additional thoughts. Boxes plural.** 

### 17 **Nothing additional.** 

### 18 **Alex?** 

### 19 **MR. LEKOV: So DOE also is** 

### 20 **mandated to an impact on overall effects on** 

### 21 **domestic energy supplies as a result of** 

### 22 **potential energy conservation standards. The**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 119**  **1 two uses for this purpose is, again, NEMS and**  

### 2 **outcome of this analysis is essentially** 

### 3 **projection of electricity generation and** 

### 4 **avoided capacity resulting from a potential** 

### 5 **change to the efficiency standard.** 

### 6 **So DOE welcomes input regarding** 

### 7 **the proposed approach to use NEMS to evaluate** 

### 8 **this type of analysis.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on this** 

### 10 **approach? No comments.** 

### 11 **MR. LEKOV: In the NOPR, DOE will** 

### 12 **also assess the overall impact on the national** 

### 13 **employment from potential energy conservation** 

### 14 **standards. Those include both direct and** 

### 15 **indirect employment impacts. The direct** 

### 16 **impacts were already discussed as part of the** 

### 17 **MIA analysis. In this particular analysis** 

### 18 **here, the focus is on indirect impact and DOE** 

### 19 **plans to utilize a tool named ImSET, Impact of** 

### 20 **Sector Energy Technologies, to evaluate the** 

### 21 **indirect employment impacts.** 

### 22 **And here, the request for comment**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 120**  **1 is feedback on the proposed approach to**  

### 2 **perform the indirect employment analysis.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on** 

### 4 **indirect employment? Yes, Jeff.** 

### 5 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,** 

### 6 **Lochinvar. In general, noncondensing products** 

### 7 **that are sold in the U.S. are by and large** 

### 8 **going to be domestically produced. There are** 

### 9 **a significant proportion of higher-efficiency** 

### 10 **condensing products that are in part or in** 

### 11 **whole imported, heat exchanger technologies** 

### 12 **have been brought in from Europe and other** 

### 13 **places.** 

### 14 **So even without a change in the** 

### 15 **number of boilers sold, it is reasonable to** 

### 16 **assume that there will be some manufacturing** 

### 17 **jobs lost as we shift to more condensing** 

### 18 **technologies. Beyond that, just the overall** 

### 19 **number of boilers sold, unless you eliminate a** 

### 20 **full product class of say noncondensing** 

### 21 **boilers which would then be a significant cost** 

### 22 **increase, I doubt that you're going to see**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 121**  **1 this ruling actually impact the number of**  

### 2 **boilers sold. That's primarily, it's a** 

### 3 **necessity. They're largely replacement units** 

### 4 **and it's going to be driven more based on** 

### 5 **rebate programs and weather.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 7 **Additional comments? I see none.** 

### 8 **MR. LEKOV: DOE is also mandated** 

### 9 **to investigate the national impacts of non** 

### 10 **regulatory alternatives compared to mandatory** 

### 11 **energy conservation standards. The tool used** 

### 12 **in this case is essentially the national** 

### 13 **impact analysis spreadsheet modified** 

### 14 **appropriately to reflect these types of** 

### 15 **policies, and the results after that are** 

### 16 **compared to the results of the mandatory** 

### 17 **efficiency standards.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on the** 

### 19 **regulatory impact analysis? Okay, I see none.** 

### 20 **MR. LEKOV: Thank you.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So as** 

### 22 **we noted first thing this morning, now is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 122**  **1 another opportunity for anybody that wants to**  

### 2 **make closing remarks, issues that haven't been** 

### 3 **covered sufficiently, things you wish to bring** 

### 4 **to the floor as we move towards closure.** 

### 5 **Yes, Frank.** 

### 6 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 7 **AHRI. I just wanted to note that this is in** 

### 8 **the framework document that was provided. At** 

### 9 **the very bottom of page 3 and the top of page** 

### 10 **4, it does properly note that EPCA states that** 

### 11 **the Secretary may not establish an amended --** 

### 12 **and I emphasis amended -- or new standard if** 

### 13 **such standard would not result in a** 

### 14 **significant conservation of energy or is not** 

### 15 **technologically feasible or economically** 

### 16 **justified.** 

### 17 **I am familiar in the legislation** 

### 18 **with certain criteria that apply if the** 

### 19 **Secretary was intending to develop standards** 

### 20 **for product not specifically listed in the** 

### 21 **legislation, but I just don't remember. Is** 

### 22 **there any particular defined value that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 123**  **1 identifies whether it's significant**  

### 2 **conservation of energy or not that would apply** 

### 3 **to amended standards? No, okay. So we can talk** 

### 4 **about it, but it won't get us very far.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Jeff.** 

### 6 **MR. KLEISS: There was one other** 

### 7 **note that I had here that when we were in the** 

### 8 **Section 7 and talking about doing the tear** 

### 9 **down to do the evaluation of the manufacturing** 

### 10 **costs. There are certainly components that** 

### 11 **involve chemical treatment or some special** 

### 12 **processing that a tear-down evaluation would** 

### 13 **not necessarily reveal as far as possible** 

### 14 **costs for manufacturing. So I would just** 

### 15 **encourage the DOE while they're gathering that** 

### 16 **data to actually have some dialogue with the** 

### 17 **manufacturer that's engaged so that they can** 

### 18 **capture some of those costs.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, thank you.** 

### 20 **Frank. Oh, excuse me, Harvey Sachs.** 

### 21 **MR. SACHS: Thanks for the** 

### 22 **compliment. This is Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 124**  **1 Towards the question, we've already**  

### 2 **established that there are prescriptive** 

### 3 **features that might or might not impact the** 

### 4 **AFUE and there potentially are other features** 

### 5 **that might not affect AFUE determination, but** 

### 6 **could save substantial amounts of energy and** 

### 7 **it's not clear to me how DOE and FTC would** 

### 8 **proceed to allow manufacturers to profit by** 

### 9 **providing information to consumers on features** 

### 10 **that save energy but are not reflected in the** 

### 11 **AFUE test. This is potentially an important** 

### 12 **question. It ties directly to Frank's** 

### 13 **question. When we're doing an amended** 

### 14 **standard, do we calculate the energy savings** 

### 15 **of the prescriptive features or just the test** 

### 16 **cycle?** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley** 

### 18 **from DOE. So I don't have a definitive** 

### 19 **answer. It's going to depend on the** 

### 20 **Department's position as to its authority** 

### 21 **about whether it can amend the dual** 

### 22 **descriptor, whether it has to amend a single**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 125**  **1 descriptor, and then the extent for which that**  

### 2 **carries through the analysis. So to the** 

### 3 **extent you have an opinion on that, we welcome** 

### 4 **your comments, obviously, to put that and** 

### 5 **bridge that as to what you believe it ought to** 

### 6 **do.** 

### 7 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs again.** 

### 8 **Thank you, Ashley. I'm very modest about my** 

### 9 **potential to influence Office of General** 

### 10 **Counsel.** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Me, too.** 

### 12 **MR. SACHS: I'm very modest about** 

### 13 **my perception of my ability of General Counsel** 

### 14 **to understand the industry. With that zinger,** 

### 15 **I would like to thank the Department for this** 

### 16 **opportunity and the chance to explore some of** 

### 17 **these issues that are not quite as cut and** 

### 18 **dried as they might at first appear. And I** 

### 19 **guess I'll go lick my wounds and come back on** 

### 20 **Friday.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik.** 

### 22 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 126**  **1 AHRI. Just one other question, at some point**  

### 2 **the analysis will include some interviews with** 

### 3 **manufacturers. Where in your schedule do you** 

### 4 **foresee that occurring?** 

### 5 **MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley** 

### 6 **from DOE. Typically, it can happen either** 

### 7 **once or twice or multiple times in process.** 

### 8 **At the very least, we will do some type of** 

### 9 **engineering-type interviews where we go** 

### 10 **through our tear-down analysis and get the** 

### 11 **feedback on that. And then there will be some** 

### 12 **type of manufacturing interviews to deal with** 

### 13 **the cost to the industry, the changes in the** 

### 14 **capital that you have to deal with to try to** 

### 15 **provide inputs.** 

### 16 **As to exactly when, I mean, give** 

### 17 **us time. It's fair to say that it won't be in** 

### 18 **the next six months, but we would reach out** 

### 19 **well in advance and we can reach out to you as** 

### 20 **well as manufacturers.** 

### 21 **MR. STANONIK: Ashley, this is** 

### 22 **Frank. And I guess what I was thinking is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 127**  **1 again, in Slide 14, you kind of showed us your**  

### 2 **schedule, so I guess I asked my question** 

### 3 **poorly. Do you think those interviews would** 

### 4 **occur before the preliminary analysis or** 

### 5 **after?** 

### 6 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So both.** 

### 7 **Typically, we do the engineering ones before** 

### 8 **and the MIA ones after.** 

### 9 **MR. STANONIK: Okay, so some time** 

### 10 **before. Okay.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Phillip.** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens.** 

### 13 **I guess we're just going right around the room** 

### 14 **here. I would like to thank you for this** 

### 15 **opportunity. I would also like to encourage** 

### 16 **the Department of Energy to please continue to** 

### 17 **work with AHRI. They do provide a valuable** 

### 18 **service to all the manufacturers and we** 

### 19 **greatly appreciate everything they do.** 

### 20 **That being said, we recognize that** 

### 21 **we operate purely in the residential and** 

### 22 **commercial boiler industry, only the high-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 128**  **1 efficiency end, whereas AHRI is required to**  

### 2 **operate on a consensus agreement for the** 

### 3 **industry association. So our reviews on this** 

### 4 **are slightly different from AHRI's. We do** 

### 5 **support high efficiency in every market, the** 

### 6 **markets we compete in and the markets we do** 

### 7 **not.** 

### 8 **If there's any way we can provide** 

### 9 **further support on this for residential** 

### 10 **boilers, gas-fired, solar, thermal, heat pump** 

### 11 **technology, please feel free to contact me.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Phillip.** 

### 13 **Additional final comments? Okay, then for my** 

### 14 **part, I'll say thank you for a very productive** 

### 15 **meeting. At the back of your packet, each one** 

### 16 **of you has an evaluation form, the last page,** 

### 17 **so please take a few minutes to -- one minute,** 

### 18 **probably, to figure that out and I'll turn it** 

### 19 **back to John Cymbalsky.** 

### 20 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks, Doug.** 

### 21 **John Cymbalsky, DOE. Comment period closes** 

### 22 **March 28th, as you see on the slide. And on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 129**  **1 behalf of the Department, I would like to**  

### 2 **thank everybody for attending and particularly** 

### 3 **the openness of this discussion. I thank the** 

### 4 **manufacturers, in particular. I think your** 

### 5 **candor here is very much appreciated by the** 

### 6 **Department. And again, this rule is only as** 

### 7 **good as the participation by all the** 

### 8 **stakeholders. So we really look forward to** 

### 9 **working with you on this rule and you'll** 

### 10 **probably be hearing from us very shortly.** 

### 11 **MR. STANONIK: I'm sorry, John. I** 

### 12 **just wanted to remind you, you do have the** 

### 13 **option to decide no amended, no change is** 

### 14 **necessary.** 

### 15 **(Laughter.)** 

### 16 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Did I say we were** 

### 17 **changing anything?** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik** 

### 19 **followed by John Cymbalsky.** 

### 20 **MR. CYMBALSKY: But again, thank** 

### 21 **you and we met the goal of finishing by lunch** 

### 22 **which for my stomach right now I can you is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 130**  **1 very happy with that outcome. Thank you.**  

### 2 **(Whereupon, the above-entitled** 

### 3 **matter went off the record at 12:07 p.m.)** 

### 4 **5 6**  **7 8**  **9 10**  **11 12**  **13 14**  **15 16**  **17 18**  **19 20**  **21 22** 

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77:3 9-7 69:12 9-8 61:10 69:2,15 9:47 1:10 4:2 90.1 79:21 99 3:14NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 150

Framework for Residential Boilers

US DOE

03-13-13

Washington, DC