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i 

91–814 2015

[H.A.S.C. No. 113–129] 

RELIGIOUS ACCOMMODATIONS IN THE 

ARMED SERVICES 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON MILITARY PERSONNEL 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

HEARING HELD 

NOVEMBER 19, 2014 
(II) 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON MILITARY PERSONNEL 

JOE WILSON, South Carolina, Chairman 

WALTER B. JONES, North Carolina 

JOSEPH J. HECK, Nevada 

AUSTIN SCOTT, Georgia 

BRAD R. WENSTRUP, Ohio 

JACKIE WALORSKI, Indiana 

CHRISTOPHER P. GIBSON, New York 

KRISTI L. NOEM, South Dakota 

SUSAN A. DAVIS, California 

ROBERT A. BRADY, Pennsylvania 

MADELEINE Z. BORDALLO, Guam 

DAVID LOEBSACK, Iowa 

NIKI TSONGAS, Massachusetts 

CAROL SHEA-PORTER, New Hampshire 

DAVE GIACHETTI, Professional Staff Member 

CRAIG GREENE, Professional Staff Member 

COLIN BOSSE, Clerk 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

CHRONOLOGICAL LIST OF HEARINGS 

2014 

Page 

HEARING: 

Wednesday, November 19, 2014, Religious Accommodations in the Armed 

Services ................................................................................................................. 1 

APPENDIX: 

Wednesday, November 19, 2014 ............................................................................. 27 

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2014 

RELIGIOUS ACCOMMODATIONS IN THE ARMED SERVICES 

STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS 

Davis, Hon. Susan A., a Representative from California, Ranking Member, 

Subcommittee on Military Personnel ................................................................. 2 

Wilson, Hon. Joe, a Representative from South Carolina, Chairman, Subcommittee on Military Personnel ........................................................................ 1 

WITNESSES 

Berry, Michael, Senior Counsel, Director of Military Affairs, Liberty Institute 3 

Crews, Ron, Chaplain Colonel, USA (Ret.), Executive Director, Chaplain Alliance for Religious Liberty .................................................................................... 4 

Kahn, Rabbi Bruce, D.D., Captain, USN (Ret.) .................................................... 5 

Weber, Travis, Director, Center for Religious Liberty, Family Research Council ........................................................................................................................... 6 

Weinstein, Michael, President, Military Religious Freedom Foundation ........... 8 

APPENDIX 

PREPARED STATEMENTS: 

Berry, Michael .................................................................................................. 32 

Crews, Ron ........................................................................................................ 55 

Kahn, Rabbi Bruce ........................................................................................... 71 

Weber, Travis .................................................................................................... 82 

Weinstein, Michael ........................................................................................... 93 

Wilson, Hon. Joe ............................................................................................... 31 

DOCUMENTS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD: 

Military Leadership Diversity Commission issue paper #22, ‘‘Religious 

Diversity in the U.S. Military’’ .................................................................... 169 

Rabbi Bruce Kahn, Supplemental Statement for the Record ....................... 164 

Statements for the Record: ..............................................................................

American Civil Liberties Union ................................................................... 144 

American Humanist Association ................................................................. 121 

Americans United for Separation of Church and State ............................. 137 

Anti-Defamation League .............................................................................. 153 

Associated Gospel Churches ......................................................................... 123 

Collins, Hon. Doug, a Representative from Georgia .................................. 111 
Page

IV 

DOCUMENTS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD—Continued 

Freedom from Religion Foundation ............................................................. 130 

Forum on the Military Chaplaincy .............................................................. 115 

Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers ........................................ 117 

Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism ............................................... 134 

WITNESS RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS ASKED DURING THE HEARING: 

[There were no Questions submitted during the hearing.] 

QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MEMBERS POST HEARING: 

Dr. Fleming ....................................................................................................... 183 

Mr. Forbes ......................................................................................................... 179 
(1) 

RELIGIOUS ACCOMMODATIONS IN THE 

ARMED SERVICES 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES, SUBCOMMITTEE ON MILITARY PERSONNEL, Washington, DC, Wednesday, November 19, 2014. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:01 p.m., in room 

2118, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Joe Wilson (chairman 

of the subcommittee) presiding. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOE WILSON, A REPRESENTATIVE FROM SOUTH CAROLINA, CHAIRMAN, SUBCOMMITTEE 

ON MILITARY PERSONNEL 

Mr. WILSON. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to a meeting of the 

Subcommittee on Military Personnel of the House Armed Services 

Committee. The hearing will come to order. 

Today, the subcommittee will hear from several nongovernmental 

witnesses on their view of the Department of Defense’s and services’ enactment and enforcement of religious accommodation statutory and regulatory guidance and its impact on the rights of religious expression of our service members. 

Historically, the Armed Forces have supported religious freedom 

and accommodated service members’ religious beliefs and practices 

when possible. I believe we can maintain a proper balance between 

religious accommodations and military readiness, unit cohesion, 

and good order and discipline. 

One of the strengths of our military is its diversity of belief and 

mutual respect. As such, it has been important for Congress to ensure that the appropriate statutory and regulatory guidance is in 

place and that DOD [Department of Defense] and the military services are implementing such guidance in order for the services to 

meet important spiritual and religious needs of the troops. 

Recognizing that there have been challenges to accommodating 

religious practices and beliefs, we have engaged in various efforts 

to clarify the role of religion in the military, prevent religious discrimination, and provide appropriate religious accommodations for 

those service members who seek it. 

Our goal today is to better understand the perception from outside of the Department of Defense on its implementation of the religious accommodations policy and the effect on service members. 

Before I introduce our panel, let me offer our ranking member, 

Congresswoman Susan Davis from California, an opportunity to 

make her opening remarks. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Wilson can be found in the Appendix on page 31.] 
2 

STATEMENT OF HON. SUSAN A. DAVIS, A REPRESENTATIVE 

FROM CALIFORNIA, RANKING MEMBER, SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

MILITARY PERSONNEL 

Mrs. DAVIS. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Let me also welcome our witnesses here today. 

Our hearing on religious accommodation in the armed services 

provides us an opportunity to hear from nongovernmental witnesses, some of whom have military backgrounds, on their views of 

the Department of Defense’s implementation and enforcement of 

laws and policies on religious accommodation. 

The balance of the accommodation of religious beliefs of service 

members and chaplains with the need for commanders to establish 

and maintain good order, discipline, and readiness has been a topic 

of concern for this committee over the past several years. 

Military chaplains face the unique challenge of providing spiritual care for all of those who serve in the military, regardless of 

their particular faith or beliefs, and this often requires military 

chaplains to provide counsel or spiritual support to those of a different faith from themselves. This challenge has often created the 

perception that the Department is prohibiting chaplains and service members from practicing the tenets of their faith. 

Often, in these discussions, what is lost is the recognition that 

a military chaplain’s responsibility is not just to his or her faith 

and those that follow that specific faith, but it is instead to provide 

nondenominational and inclusive spiritual support to all those in 

uniform and their families, regardless of their specific religious 

belief. 

Our Nation, as we all know, is home to individuals who practice 

every religion the world over, including those who have no belief 

or religion at all. Our diversity is what makes our country stronger, 

and our ability to respect different cultures and beliefs, including 

religious beliefs, is a bedrock of American values. And our Armed 

Forces is a reflection of our country, and we need to ensure that 

these values are upheld and protected for all service members and 

military clergy alike. 

So I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for having this hearing. 

I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today. 

And, again, welcome to all of you, and thank you for your presence here. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Mrs. Davis. 

I would like to welcome our distinguished witnesses: Mr. Michael 

Berry, Senior Counsel, Director of Military Affairs of the Liberty 

Institute; Dr. Ron Crews, Chaplain, Colonel, U.S. Army, retired, 

Executive Director of the Chaplain Alliance for Religious Liberty; 

Rabbi Bruce H. Kahn, D.D., Captain, U.S. Navy, retired; Mr. Travis Weber, Director, Center for Religious Liberty of the Family Research Council; Mr. Michael Weinstein, President, Military Religious Freedom Foundation. 

I now ask unanimous consent that Congressman Dr. John Fleming from Louisiana, Congresswoman Vicky Hartzler of Missouri, 

Congressman Randy Forbes of Virginia, Congressman Tim Huelskamp of Kansas, and Congressman Doug Collins of Georgia be allowed to participate and ask questions after all Members from the 

subcommittee have had an opportunity to question the witnesses. 
3 

† The Sikh Coalition statement can be found at http://docs.house.gov/meetings/as/as02/201411 

19/102755/hhrg-113-as02-20141119-sd003.pdf. 

Without objection, so ordered. 

In addition, I ask unanimous consent to enter the following statements into the record: from the Forum on the Military Chaplaincy; 

from the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers; from 

the American Humanist Association; from the Associated Gospel 

Churches; from the Sikh Coalition; from the Freedom from Religion 

Foundation; from the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism; 

from the Americans United for Separation of Church and State; 

and from the American Civil Liberties Union. 

Without objection, so ordered. 

[The information referred to can be found in the Appendix beginning on page 115.] † 

Mr. WILSON. Mr. Berry, we will begin with your opening statement. We will then have statements from Dr. Crews, Rabbi Kahn, 

Mr. Weber, and Mr. Weinstein. 

As a reminder, please keep your statements to 3 minutes or less. 

We have your written testimony for the record. Following your testimony, each Member will participate with questions in rounds of 

5 minutes each until adjournment. 

And, additionally, you need to be aware that votes could be called 

virtually anytime, and when the votes are called, if there is any opportunity to break, we will. We will recess, and then come back. 

But that is always quite up in the air. 

Mr. Berry. 

STATEMENT OF MICHAEL BERRY, SENIOR COUNSEL, 

DIRECTOR OF MILITARY AFFAIRS, LIBERTY INSTITUTE 

Mr. BERRY. Thank you. Chairman Wilson, Ranking Member 

Davis, and committee members, good morning. And on behalf of 

Liberty Institute, thank you for the opportunity to testify on this 

important issue. 

Liberty Institute is a national religious liberties law firm whose 

mission is to defend and restore religious liberty in accordance with 

the principles of America’s Founders. As Liberty Institute’s senior 

counsel and director of military affairs, I have the privilege of 

working on religious liberties issues affecting our Armed Forces. 

Our military’s most formidable weapon is not a high-tech vehicle 

or a new aircraft carrier; it is the American service member and 

his or her selfless service and sacrifice to this Nation. Often, it is 

that service member’s faith that enables him or her to endure the 

rigors of military life and, indeed, the horrors of combat. We must, 

therefore, ensure that those who sacrificed so much for our religious freedom do not lose theirs. 

Recent events, however, demonstrate an alarming increase in incidents of religious hostility within our military, both in frequency 

and severity. Within the past year alone, Liberty Institute represented or advised multiple service members who experienced religious hostility by military superiors. 

The following example serves as a sample of such cases. A 19- 

year Air Force veteran was relieved of his duties and transferred 

to a different unit because his religious beliefs conflicted with those 
4 

of his commander. A 24-year Army veteran and commanding officer 

was threatened with career-ending punishment because he expressed his religious beliefs in response to an Army policy directive 

that he believed treated soldiers unfairly. 

Soldiers at separate bases were instructed that certain religious 

ministries, including evangelical Christians and Tea Party supporters, were to be considered domestic hate groups and/or terror 

threats. In each of these incidents, Liberty Institute took action to 

defend the religious freedom of our service members. Nevertheless, 

each of our clients and their families experienced fear, intimidation, and a sense of betrayal by their service. On a broader scale, 

the result was a chilling effect on religious freedom and expression 

that harms our entire military. 

Despite this committee’s laudable efforts to protect religious freedom in the military, there is still much work to be done. I am confident that our military commanders genuinely seek to do what is 

right and what is lawful. The problem, however, is that we now 

have a military culture of fear and confusion when it comes to the 

law. 

To combat this, we respectfully recommend directing our military 

to dedicate resources toward training and educating our current 

and future leaders on our most sacred rights as Americans. That 

would be a significant first step toward reversing the disturbing 

trend we have observed and strengthening our military. 

I conclude by quoting an excerpt from a report delivered to President Truman as the United States emerged from World War II and 

faced a new kind of enemy: ‘‘If we expect our Armed Forces to be 

physically prepared, we must also expect them to be ideologically 

prepared.’’ 

I thank the committee for this opportunity. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Berry can be found in the Appendix on page 32.] 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you very much, Mr. Berry. 

And we now proceed to Dr. Crews. 

And I want to thank Dave Giachetti on our staff of the Military 

Personnel Subcommittee. He is above reproach on keeping time. 

And, Mr. Berry, you were remarkable. This is unheard of. 

But, no, so that everybody has an opportunity. And Mr. Giachetti 

will be the arbiter. Thank you. 

Dr. Crews. 

STATEMENT OF RON CREWS, CHAPLAIN COLONEL, USA (RET.), 

EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CHAPLAIN ALLIANCE FOR RELIGIOUS LIBERTY 

Dr. CREWS. Chairman Wilson, Ranking Member Davis, and committee members, the Chaplain Alliance for Religious Liberty exists 

to protect the religious liberty of chaplains and those they serve. 

We speak on behalf of almost 50 percent of chaplains currently 

serving in the military. Further, all of our members are military 

veterans, and we bring that wealth of experience to bear in this 

public comment. 

The military is a unique institution of the state that may make 

uniquely comprehensive demands of individual service members 

that it cannot make of any other free member of society. Our Na-
5 

tion has a history, though, of working hard to protect and accommodate military religious liberty—a tradition that has limited restrictions on service members’ ability to live their faiths. 

Certainly, no American, especially those serving in the Armed 

Forces, should be forced to abandon their religious beliefs. Accordingly, the military chaplaincy was established before the founding 

of our Nation to ensure the free exercise of faith for all service 

members and their families. Thus, in keeping with the best of our 

national traditions, our military has long been a place where citizens could, as the Army Chaplain Corps motto states, serve pro deo 

et patria, for God and country. 

But, over the past few years, our government has been retreating 

from that history of accommodation, enacting new policies without 

considering their dangerous effect on religious liberty and sometimes taking overtly hostile actions toward faith. 

We have reported to you many concerns, including an Ohio National Guard removing an article from a Wing newsletter that mentioned the words ‘‘faith’’ and ‘‘Jesus Christ’’ while Moody Air Force 

officials allowed an article about atheism to remain. We believe the 

atheist airman has the liberty to write about the merits of atheism, 

and we believe the Christian airman has the liberty to write about 

the value of his faith in Jesus Christ. This double standard must 

stop. 

An Air Force Academy cadet was required to remove a Bible 

verse from his personal whiteboard outside his living quarters. An 

equal-opportunity officer gave a PowerPoint training presentation 

that listed evangelical Christians, Catholics, Orthodox Jews as religious extremists. 

Although the military may, when necessary to its mission, diminish some aspects of religious liberty, it may not and must not extinguish it. These attacks on religious liberty may be abated somewhat by the passage of section 533 of the NDAA [National Defense 

Authorization Act], but as long as military officials are labeling orthodox religious believers as domestic hate groups, the military will 

be abandoning its duty to protect religious liberty for service members. 

General Patton once said, ‘‘It is the spirit of the men who follow 

and lead that gain the victory.’’ To attack the religious beliefs of 

our service personnel is to attack their spirits—the very spirits who 

are ensuring the safety of our Nation. 

Thank you for your work on this issue, and we stand ready to 

help you. 

[The prepared statement of Dr. Crews can be found in the Appendix on page 55.] 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you very much, Dr. Crews. 

Rabbi Kahn. 

STATEMENT OF RABBI BRUCE KAHN, D.D., CAPTAIN, 

USN (RET.) 

Rabbi KAHN. Good afternoon, Chairman Wilson, Ranking Member Davis, and esteemed members of the committee. Thank you for 

inviting me to offer this testimony. It is an honor to participate. 

I was commissioned an ensign in 1970, retired as a Navy captain 

in June 2002, was called back and served for a short time in the 
6 

Iraqi theater in 2003. I have served in a wide array of commands 

afloat and ashore with the Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard. 

Navy Chief of Chaplains Rear Admiral Margaret Kibben wrote, 

‘‘Chaplains are a safe place, a sanctuary where our people can come 

to regain a sense of wholeness and hope.’’ I think everyone can 

agree with that conviction, but what does it take to be that sanctuary providing a path to wholeness and hope? We take a step 

when we serve everyone. 

Over the decades, at least 95 percent of the troops to whom I provided ministry were not Jewish. They were from numerous faiths 

and included those with no interest in religion at all. That amazing 

diversity is just one reason why the military chaplaincy is necessarily a far different ministry from that in the civilian denominational setting. 

For example, as a Jewish chaplain, I don’t pray in Hebrew or Aramaic when doing so defeats the point of my presence. I don’t counsel by citing the Talmud when I know the people with me have no 

awareness of or affection for that source. I would not avoid passages in the Quran when conducting a Bible class that Muslims 

would like to attend. 

When someone, perhaps a constituent of yours who may be 20 

years old or so, needs me to pray with him or her before heading 

into a firefight or needs me to say the right words when, God forbid, he or she is dying from one’s wounds, I will do so as your constituent in crisis requires. And I will do so every time. I am a U.S. 

Navy chaplain. 

We must always put first the spiritual and moral wellbeing of 

the troops. Their religious freedom is not to be sacrificed at the 

altar of our own. No one forced us to become chaplains. This is the 

ministry we volunteered for, and we must accept the expectations 

of flexibility that come with it. 

That is why, depending on the religious composition of the troops 

present, we adjust what we say and do to embrace as many of 

them as possible, rather than set them apart one from the other. 

Let’s remember that when troops go into battle they must have 

each other’s backs. The enemy tries to divide and conquer. In service with one another, we unite and win. 

When we follow Chaplain Kibben’s advice, we enhance unit cohesion, readiness, and mission accomplishment in service to God and 

country. I believe that. I am a U.S. Navy chaplain. 

Thank you for providing me this opportunity to submit my testimony to you. 

[The prepared statement of Rabbi Kahn can be found in the Appendix on page 71.] 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Rabbi Kahn. 

We now proceed with Mr. Weber. 

And I want to commend each of you. You have been within 2 seconds of 3 minutes. This is unheard of. Thank you. 

STATEMENT OF TRAVIS WEBER, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR 

RELIGIOUS LIBERTY, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL 

Mr. WEBER. Chairman Wilson, Ranking Member Davis, and 

members of the committee, thank you for convening this hearing 
7 

and the opportunity to testify regarding religious freedom in our 

military. 

I am a graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, a former Navy pilot, 

and now director of the Center for Religious Liberty at the Family 

Research Council, where we have grown increasingly concerned 

about restrictions on service members’ religious expression over the 

past several years. 

Despite congressional efforts to address these restrictions and 

DOD assertions that the problems are modest, religious expression 

continues to be stifled in our military, as we saw earlier this year 

when Bibles were removed from Navy lodges due to fears they were 

causing offense and when an Air Force Academy cadet’s religious 

expression was singled out and targeted for removal from his own 

whiteboard. 

Even if later corrected, such accounts, as others are documented 

in my written testimony, create a chilling effect and bolster the 

perception that religion beliefs must be hidden to maintain one’s 

standing in the military. 

Such censorship reveals a misunderstanding of a very basic 

truth: Religion simply cannot be sectioned off into neat little compartments in our lives. It is essential to all aspects of the human 

experience, including how we approach the issues of death and 

danger so essential to military service. How can we ask service 

men and women to do a job which is so incredibly difficult while 

at the same time divorcing them from the very spiritual resources 

they need to do that job? 

These resources go beyond the confines of the mind and find expression in one’s conversations and public affirmations. Consider 

the example of Jeff Struecker, an Army Ranger who was sent into 

a firefight on the streets of Mogadishu to rescue fallen comrades 

during the ‘‘Black Hawk Down’’ incident. In a short film titled ‘‘Return to Mogadishu,’’ Jeff explains how he relied on God for strength 

in his ordeal. Are we prepared to tell him that God has no part in 

his story? I hope not. Why should others be treated any differently? 

Let me be clear: We do not support coercing anyone into religious 

practice, but religious freedom, including the ability to speak of 

one’s religion, must be protected. Jeff Struecker and many others 

like him must have the freedom to tell how their lives and their 

faith drive their careers. If we deny them that, we will be suffocating their military service at its very heart. 

When considering how to approach these issues, we would do 

well to be informed by the Supreme Court’s articulation earlier this 

year in another case, Town of Greece v. Galloway, which also dealt 

with the role of religion in public life, in which the Court said that, 

quote, ‘‘offense does not equate to coercion,’’ unquote. 

But what is to be done? We recommend that this committee ensure that DOD abides by congressional intent in the last two defense bills to protect religious expression, including religious 

speech; ensure that branch regulations reflect these protections; 

and ensure that military leaders, like commanders, chaplains, and 

JAG [Judge Advocate General] officers, receive the proper training 

on these protections. 

Our service men and women do not give up their religious freedom and constitutional rights simply because they join our Nation’s 
8 

military. Their rights must be protected, too, and we are confident 

this committee will continue to play an important role in seeing 

that happen. 

Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Weber can be found in the Appendix on page 82.] 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you very much, Mr. Weber. 

We now proceed to Mr. Weinstein. 

STATEMENT OF MICHAEL WEINSTEIN, PRESIDENT, MILITARY 

RELIGIOUS FREEDOM FOUNDATION 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Davis, distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you profoundly for 

the gracious invitation to speak with you today. 

I am the president and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, which is a civil rights organization representing 

nearly 40,000 military members and veterans, 96 percent of whom 

are practicing Christians, who are gravely concerned about their 

religious freedom. 

They ask this Congress to protect their right to remain free from 

those commanders and other superiors who wrongly believe that 

the First Amendment gives leaders an unrestricted right to proselytize or witness to their subordinates. Whether the subordinate 

agrees or finds the message unwelcome does not matter; the subordinate must listen respectfully and differentially or risk being punished under the Uniform Code of Military Justice for showing disrespect to a superior, which is a violation of Articles 89 and 91. Unlike their civilian counterparts, a military subordinate does not 

have the ability to walk away if they would prefer not to listen. 

The patriots we represent ask this committee for a simple thing 

that won’t cost the Nation one red cent: the right to make their 

own choice regarding religious belief, including the right not to believe in a deity, and to be free from the interference of their leaders 

when making those religious choices. 

Freedom of religion is the ultimate liberty of every citizen. It is 

the highest expression of the freedom to think, to follow one’s conscience without interference from the government and, for military 

members, without pressure from a commander or other superior. 

Military life has no civilian equivalent, so regardless of your 

thoughts about private-sector employers’ rights to proselytize or 

witness to their employees, the Supreme Court has correctly held 

that the unique military environment requires greater limits on 

certain freedoms of expression. 

Writing for an overwhelming six-to-two majority 40 years ago in 

the 1974 decision of Parker v. Levy, the uber-conservative Chief 

Justice William Rehnquist said, quote, ‘‘This court has long recognized that the military is, by necessity, a specialized society separate from civilian society. While the members of the military are 

not excluded from the protection granted by the First Amendment, 

the different character of the military community and of the military mission requires a different application of those protections. 

The fundamental necessity for obedience and the consequent necessity for imposition of discipline may render permissible within the 

military that which would be constitutionally impermissible outside 
9 

† Enclosures additional to Mr. Weinstein’s statement can be found at http://docs.house.gov/ 

meetings/as/as02/20141119/102755/hhrg-113-as02-wstate-weinsteinm-20141119.pdf. 

of it. Speech, to include religious speech, that is protected in the 

the civil population may nonetheless undermine the effectiveness of 

response to command. If it does, it is constitutionally unprotected.’’ 

Now, 40 years later, Parker v. Levy remains the absolute and appropriate law of the land. The Air Force captured the Supreme 

Court’s guidance correctly in Air Force Instruction 1–1, amended 

only a few days ago. It states that ‘‘Air Force leaders at all levels 

must ensure their words and actions cannot reasonably be construed to officially endorse or disapprove of or extend preferential 

treatment for any faith, belief, or absence of belief.’’ 

Ultimately, at the end of the day, the thing that we have to keep 

in mind is very, very simple, and that is that we can never be in 

a situation where to weigh religious beliefs as a necessary, sufficient condition for honorary military service is allowable, because 

it is patently and wrongfully in every possible way unconstitutional. We ask the committee’s support. 

Thank you for the chance to speak today. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Weinstein can be found in the 

Appendix on page 93.] † 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you very much, Mr. Weinstein. 

This is an important hearing. These are important issues that 

are being discussed. An indication of that, we have been joined by 

two more Members of Congress. I am very grateful that Congressman Doug Lamborn of Colorado, Congressman Trent Franks of Arizona—and I would move unanimous consent that both, in the order 

of their appearance, be allowed to participate in the hearing. 

Without any objection, we shall proceed. 

And, again, we could be in recess any moment. And so I just 

want to thank each one of you. This is going to go down in history 

as a record of people within the 3-minute limit, much less the 5- 

minute limit. As we proceed, again, beginning 5 minutes with each 

of us, and Mr. Giachetti will keep us in line. 

Dr. Crews, both the 2013 and 2014 National Defense Authorization Acts require religious belief and expression to be accommodated unless such expression could have an adverse impact on good 

order and discipline. 

In your view, what impact has this had on policy on chaplains 

and service members with diverse religious backgrounds? 

Dr. CREWS. First, let me say we are most grateful for this committee’s work and the passage of section 533 and amended by 532 

last year. 

We believe that, statutorily, the protections exist, not only for 

chaplains but those they serve, to be able to serve without fear of 

recrimination for actions they may take. 

However, the Department of Defense has been slow in providing 

implementing guidance on section 533 and 532 and just recently 

have issued some guidance that will go to the field. Our concern 

now is how that guidance is going to be interpreted by those on the 

field, particularly on the wing level, the brigade level, and their 

JAGs, and how they will interpret that. 
10 

Case in point is this wing commander and his JAG who made 

the decision that Colonel Marquinez could not write about his faith 

in Christ, while yet another wing commander said, yes, this atheist 

could write about his atheism. And the last time I checked, this article is still on the Air Force Web site, whereas this one was removed within an hour of it being posted in the newsletter. 

So it is how the 533 and 532 is being interpreted in the field; 

that is the concern. And that is where we ask your help in keeping 

DOD’s feet to the fire, that they obey the intent of Congress. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you very much. 

And, Mr. Berry, in your view, how has the Department of Defense combated the perception that there could be career consequences for speaking out about one’s moral or religious convictions? 

Mr. BERRY. Chairman Wilson, the Department of Defense has, 

obviously, in January of this year, with the revision to Instruction 

1300.17, has taken great steps forward in trying to ensure that 

service members’ religious liberties are protected. 

However, as Dr. Crews alluded to, those are the first steps necessary, and I honestly believe that more needs to be done to, in essence, follow up on simply a Department of Defense instruction and 

to put meat on the bones, if you will. Namely, what I am referring 

to is there needs to be some formal education done both at the command level and then for the subject-matter experts to deal with 

these issues. 

The military has demonstrated great capability at devoting the 

resources it has available to it to combat issues—social issues and 

societal issues that it faces, even on controversial topics such as 

suicide awareness, PTSD, et cetera. If the military can do the great 

job that it has in addressing those issues, then certainly it can also 

do so with the perception or the actual religious hostility that service members are experiencing. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you. 

And, Rabbi Kahn, you and I both began our military careers 

about the same year. So thank you for your Navy service. And as 

a Navy dad, I actually appreciate your service. 

Rabbi KAHN. Sir, thank you. And I, yours. 

Mr. WILSON. Well, thank you very much. I was Army, but, hey, 

this is good. 

With the National Defense Authorization Act requirements on religious belief, back again to what I asked about to Dr. Crews, in 

your view, what impact has this policy had on chaplains and service members with diverse religious backgrounds? 

Rabbi KAHN. Sir, I believe that varies considerably depending on 

the individual that is involved. 

For those people who are thoroughly understanding of the idea 

that we need to have religious freedom but without using it to coerce others, especially when you are in a position of authority over 

those individuals, if you have people who are devout in their faith 

but who at the same time want to use that in order to protect the 

rights of choices, faith choices, that others make in their command, 

then it is no problem whatever. It is wonderful. 

But where you have individuals who believe that they are on a 

mission to bring others to their point of view and they want to use 
11 

every opportunity that they have available in order to pursue that 

course, then you have cracks in unit cohesion and you have real 

problems with maintaining readiness and being prepared for going 

to war. 

So I believe it depends greatly on who you are talking about and 

what that person’s approach to those regs happens to be. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you very much. 

And in strict accordance with the 5 minutes, we now proceed to 

Mrs. Davis. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And this is really following up and perhaps another way of stating the question and to all of you, have you seen that the recent 

changes actually clarified or enhanced religious accommodation for 

service members? 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. Is that for—— 

Mrs. DAVIS. And are they aware—and are they, you know, aware 

of them, as well? I think chaplains certainly are aware of the 

changes, but I am just wondering, what do you think? Has it clarified it for them, or has it enhanced their religious accommodation 

for our service members? 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. Madam Ranking Member, if I may, I think that 

there is a tsunami of confusion out there. But there is also a lot 

of willful confusion. And from the perspective of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, the excuse of ‘‘I am sorry, I just don’t 

understand’’ seems very specious. 

The fact that we represent a little over 13.5 percent of every 

Muslim American in the U.S. military, 865 LGBT [lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender] members of the military, mostly Protestants 

and Roman Catholics but people of every faith, it gets a little old 

after a while when a superior says, ‘‘I am sorry, I just didn’t know.’’ 

I think they know very well. There is a very purposeful attempt 

to witness and proselytize irrespective of Department of Defense directives, instructions, and regulations. And that needs to be combated, with people that violate the law being visibly and aggressively disciplined. 

Thank you. 

Dr. CREWS. Mrs. Davis, let the record show that Chaplain Crews 

agrees with Mikey Weinstein that there is a tsunami of confusion 

in the field. 

And one of the problems that we are hearing about is that the 

533 instruction has not yet made it down into the JAG corps 

schools or even in some levels of chaplain schools, and that is a 

concern, that the intent of Congress be now implemented and 

taught to those who are providing subject-matter experts to commanders as they have to make really important decisions about religious liberty for the service men and women. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Uh-huh. 

Rabbi, did you—— 

Rabbi KAHN. Yes, ma’am. I don’t know that you can legislate this 

matter so finely that you can eliminate, through the legislation, the 

confusion that exists in the minds of our members of our Armed 

Forces. 

I think what is more important is that if we can find some principles of what we are going to—how we are going to approach reli-
12 

gion in the Armed Forces that are then trained to members of the 

Armed Forces from the top down, we would be doing ourselves a 

big favor. 

Absolutely, the importance of religious expression in the Armed 

Forces, it can’t be—in my view, it can’t be overstated. At the same 

time, there is a danger that if it is not used appropriately, taking 

into account the special conditions in the Armed Forces, it can be 

damaging. 

So I must say that most of the time I have seen religious freedom 

exercised in such a way as to enhance mission accomplishment. 

But that happens when commanding officers and their senior leadership teams, both officer and enlisted, seek to address the religious needs and sensibilities of all their troops. 

If we could agree on that, that we are all going to address the 

religious needs and sensibilities of all our troops, I think we would 

take a giant step forward. And I could certainly see that coming 

to pass in the right environment of conversation and training in 

the military itself. I am not sure how you could actually find the 

language to legislate that effectively. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Uh-huh. Thank you. 

Mr. Berry. 

Mr. BERRY. Yes, thank you, Madam Ranking Member. 

Just from my own experience, having been a student at Naval 

Justice School and having taught law at the U.S. Naval Academy, 

I would just like to offer my own anecdotal experience, that there 

is a fundamental misunderstanding of the interplay between the 

First Amendment and the military at all levels, both in the educational institutions and within the force itself. 

By way of example, at Naval Justice School, which is a 10-weeklong course, roughly 1 to 2 hours was devoted to covering the entire 

First Amendment, not just the Free Exercise and Establishment 

Clauses but the entire First Amendment. And that is nowhere near 

enough to even begin to scrape the surface of the body of law that 

is out there that needs to be covered. 

Thank you. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Thank you. 

I think, Mr. Weber, did you want to—— 

Mr. WEBER. Ranking Member Davis, thank you for your question. 

I will just quickly note that the language is pretty clear: sincerely held conscience, moral principles, and religious beliefs. However, as has been noted already, that needs to be made clear 

throughout the services at all levels and supported by a culture of 

understanding of the intent of what that is trying to get at. 

So I think the language is clear, but it needs to be made clear 

throughout the services. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Okay. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Ms. Davis. 

And we are voting on the floor now. We have three votes. The 

estimate is we will be back by 3:10. We will recess and begin immediately with Congressman Walter Jones of North Carolina. 

We are in recess. 

[Recess.] 
13 

Mr. WILSON. Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to call the subcommittee back to order, the Military Personnel of the House 

Armed Services Committee. 

We had the recess for votes. And, at this time, the minority 

members are in a separate caucus, but we have been advised that 

we can proceed. And we will with Congressman Walter Jones of 

North Carolina. 

Mr. JONES. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. 

And I, in 2005, was notified by an Army chaplain in Iraq who 

was asked by the company commander to conduct a service for a 

young Army soldier who had been killed in action. In that particular unit, the Army chaplain needed to email his prayer to the 

divisional chaplain. And let me make it clear that this was taking 

place outside the chapel in Iraq. 

And Jonathan Stertzbach emailed his divisional chaplain, who 

emailed back and struck through the words, which was the close 

of this chaplain, ‘‘in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, 

amen.’’ He was removed from his chapel. 

If that is the American military, then I am sure George Washington would be very disappointed, because only until the midnineties did our chaplains have any restriction, whether they be 

Jewish, Muslim, Christian—no restriction at all. I do not know how 

we in America can think that we should have control over the conscience of a man of faith, whether they be Jewish, Muslim, or 

Christian. That is not America, military or nonmilitary. 

We in the House Armed Services Committee this past year got 

into the NDAA bill—I am going to read this, and I wanted to ask 

each one of you to give me a short sentence—‘‘the religious freedom 

of military chaplains to close a prayer outside of a religious service 

according to the dictates of the chaplain’s conscience’’—‘‘conscience.’’ I don’t think any government should dictate the conscience of any human being, be it a minister or a chaplain. That 

is not what God intended. 

And for us to say that because I am Jewish that I have to close 

a prayer in a certain way or because I am a Christian or an Imam, 

it doesn’t matter, it is America. 

And these kids are giving their life in Muslim countries so that 

the Muslim imams can have freedom to pray as they see fit, but 

yet in America, where they came from to give their life, our chaplains are being challenged on how to close a prayer? It is a sad day 

for America when that is happening. It is a sad day for the military. 

I talked to one of the chaplains for General Schwarzkopf. Desert 

Storm, he said, I had no restriction. The general would say we need 

to have prayer before battle, we need to have prayer after battle. 

He never said to me, You be conscious of how you close your prayer. 

If we are starting to dictate the conscience of our ministers and 

our chaplains, then, America, God forgive us because we are not 

protecting freedom in America. That is a sad day. 

How can anyone—and I want you to quick answer because of the 

time. I have 1 minute and 32 seconds. I want each one of you to 

say ‘‘this is fair’’ or ‘‘this is not fair.’’ Just give me that, ‘‘fair’’ or 

‘‘not fair.’’ 
14 

The religious freedom of military chaplains to close a prayer outside of a religious service—outside of a religious service according 

to the dictates of the chaplain’s conscience, is that fair or unfair? 

And I will start with you, Mr. Berry. Just give me ‘‘yes’’ or ‘‘no.’’ 

Mr. BERRY. Yes, sir. 

Dr. CREWS. I think that is a fair statement, yes, sir. 

Rabbi KAHN. No, sir, it is not fair at all. 

Mr. JONES. Okay. Then you believe that, as anyone, you have a 

right to believe that the government should dictate how your conscience functions? Then it is a sad day. And I would fight for a 

Jewish rabbi chaplain’s right to close the prayer they see fit. And 

if we are going to start challenging people of different faiths and 

religions, we are headed toward the end of the world. 

Yes, sir. Please. Next. 

Mr. WEBER. It is fair, Congressman. 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. Congressman Jones, it is a beautiful day for 

America when we have a situation—— 

Mr. JONES. Just—— 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. Excuse me. No, I want to answer your question. 

Mr. JONES. No, sir. 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. No, no, no. I want to answer your question. It 

is an unfair question you are asking. 

Mr. JONES. Fair or unfair? Fair or unfair is all I am asking. 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. I don’t even understand your question. What I 

am saying is, in the military, Congressman, you can—— 

Mr. JONES. Answer the question. 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. No. You can have either religious formations or 

mandatory formations. You can’t have mandatory religious formations. You cannot have mandatory religious formations. 

Mr. JONES. That is my time. 

Mr. WILSON. And, at this time, thank you very much, Mr. Jones. 

We will be proceeding to Congressman Dr. Joe Heck of Nevada. 

Dr. HECK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Thank you all for being here today for the hearing. 

You know, obviously, a very emotionally charged topic, and rightfully so, I believe. I have served for over 24 years through various 

levels of command and have had a chaplain as a personal staff officer assigned to me through all levels of command. 

As many of you probably know, in Army FM [Field Manual] 6– 

0, the chaplain is personal staff assigned to the commander to provide for the free expression of religion and the religious, moral, and 

ethical leadership. He has a dual role—or she—has a dual role as 

a religious leader and as a staff advisor. 

My concern is that we seem to be getting so wrapped around the 

axle that we are actually going to infringe upon the ability of a 

chaplain to do the job that they are charged to do, which is not just 

be a religious leader and minister to the needs of the service members, but to be that staff advisor on religious issues, moral and ethical issues to the commander. 

I relied heavily on my chaplains during difficult times. I was in 

Al Asad for a year, taking care of dying soldiers every day in a 

CSH [Combat Support Hospital]. And to go up to the chaplain and 

ask to pray for me or to pray with me, regardless of the denomination of that chaplain, was one of the things that helped me get 
15 

through that deployment as we cared for our service men and 

women. 

And I say, Mr. Weinstein, I take exception with the comment you 

made that you believe commanders are willfully proselytizing because of this specious argument of ‘‘I just didn’t know.’’ I think the 

problem is that we have to define what coercion is. We use that 

word, but if I speak to my formation in an informal setting and I 

want to end that with saying ‘‘may God bless you,’’ am I violating— 

in your opinions, am I violating their civil liberties? Am I coercing 

them to follow a specific religious dictum because that is how I 

choose to end a talk with my troops? 

Those are the issues that trouble me, is that we are truly going 

to make it so difficult for chaplains—I mean, Rabbi, you said in 

your statement, when you were referring to ministering to those 

dying of wounds, you used the phrase, quote, ‘‘God forbid,’’ end 

quote. If I use that phrase, ‘‘God forbid,’’ in a statement or in a talk 

before my formation, am I proselytizing because I have invoked a 

deity higher than mine that perhaps some other religious background does not believe in? 

So not only do I believe we are making this more difficult for our 

chaplains, we are making it more difficult for our commanders. 

And that is why there is so much confusion. 

We are getting so afraid of what we can and can’t say, to be politically correct, as opposed to speaking from the heart to the men 

and women that we are leading into battle. How can I expect men 

and women to follow me and put their lives on the line if I have 

to spend more time worrying about how I am going to phrase something than getting the job done? 

So, again, I only got a minute, 45 left. So, I mean, in your opinions—and I will go down the line—is saying things—I mean, because I am looking for input. I mean, I know what my chaplain, 

my staff chaplain, tells me now, but I would like to get some outside expertise. 

Closing a talk with the formation, again, not in formation, if we 

are gathered around, even if it is a mandatory meeting, and at the 

end of it I say, you know, ‘‘God bless you,’’ am I proselytizing? Am 

I violating their rights? 

Mr. Berry. 

Mr. BERRY. Dr. Heck, not only is that position consistent with, 

it is actually supported by, our Federal courts. There is case law 

on that that actually says—and I will just give one brief quote— 

military chaplains do not invoke the official imprimatur of the military when they give a sermon or are acting in a religious capacity. 

And, therefore, it is wholly appropriate for them to advance their 

religious beliefs in that context. 

Dr. HECK. But not as a chaplain. I am saying as a commander. 

Not as a man of the cloth, but as a commander using that phrase. 

Mr. BERRY. Yes, sir. 

Dr. HECK. That is part of the thing that Mr. Weinstein brought 

up, that commanders are willfully proselytizing. 

Dr. CREWS. Sir, Dr. Heck, thank you for your service. 

Just because you are a commander does not mean that you give 

up your religious liberties. I believe your religious liberties remain, 
16 

just as every other service member’s, that you are able to exercise 

your religious liberties. 

Dr. HECK. Rabbi. 

Rabbi KAHN. God bless you. I really would like to explain my answer to both of you. 

Dr. HECK. If you can in 15 seconds. 

Rabbi KAHN. But I can’t do it in 15 seconds—— 

Dr. HECK. All right. So let’s get together after—— 

Rabbi KAHN [continuing]. But I very much want to respond. 

Dr. HECK. Let’s get together afterwards, or perhaps you can respond for the record, if we could, or have a discussion offline. 

[The information referred to can be found in Appendix on page 

164.] 

Dr. HECK. Mr. Weber. 

Mr. WEBER. Congressman, Dr. Heck, I definitely agree with the 

sentiment expressed, that the oversensitivity to making a comment, a religious reference, and the reaction to that is a severe 

problem. I think that is what we are here to address today. And 

it is not coercion every time a deity is mentioned or a religious reference is made. 

Dr. HECK. My time is up, but, Mr. Chairman, may I have your 

indulgence just to get Mr. Weinstein? 

Mr. WILSON. Yes. 

Dr. HECK. Okay. 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. Congressman Jones, actually, it is pronounced 

‘‘Weinstein.’’ 

Dr. HECK. Sorry. 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. God bless you. 

Yeah, I just wanted to say that, look, the bottom line here is that 

we are talking about a unity—there is a large number, some people 

say as many as a quarter, of our military that shares no faith 

whatsoever. Obviously, if someone sneezes and you say ‘‘God bless 

you’’ or you say ‘‘God bless you’’ and it is not a Tourette’s Syndrome 

thing—but to say it from a purposeful perspective right before you 

go into a combat mission, the question I have for you, sir—and I 

thank you for your service—why would you want to say something 

that could possibly be divisive and not unifying for your men and 

women as you go into combat? 

Dr. HECK. Well, I mean, perhaps we can have that conversation 

offline, as well. I don’t want to impose on the chairman anymore 

than I already have. 

Thank you, Mr. Chair. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Dr. Heck. 

We now proceed to Congressman Dr. John Fleming of Louisiana. 

Dr. FLEMING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And thank you, panel, for being here. 

We had a hearing just like this several months ago, where we 

had chaplains from the military, the highest-ranking chaplains. 

And that hearing and previous hearings, whenever we posed a 

question, particularly from this Clear and Present Danger, it really 

catalogs the many instances. Basically, their response was, there 

has never been a problem, those things didn’t happen, or they were 

misinterpreted, or so forth. 
17 

So I challenged them. I said, you take this back and give us a 

report on it. And we have it in the notes, and I would like to submit it for the record. 

[The information referred to was not available at the time of 

printing.] 

Dr. FLEMING. But, for many cases, they conceded that there was 

a problem, it just hadn’t been properly addressed. In other cases, 

they just didn’t address it at all. 

But, you know, what was interesting is, right after the meeting, 

I am walking down the hallway, and a military officer who was in 

that meeting came up to me and said, ‘‘Sir, you need to realize this 

is a huge problem in the military. What these gentlemen are telling 

you is not really reflective of the reality that is going on in the military.’’ And so that certainly spoke to my heart on this. 

Now, I hear the word ‘‘proselytizing’’ bandying back. We have 

discussed this many times. I have yet to hear one Member of Congress say that we should have a law that allows or promotes in any 

way proselytizing. No one has an interest in that, and that becomes 

simply a strawman argument, something to argue against that 

really doesn’t exist in fact. 

So I think that we need to be sure that we are talking about the 

right thing here. The important thing that happened in 533 that 

we changed in fiscal year 2014 from the NDAA was—the prior language said that military members were allowed to believe what 

they wanted to believe. Well, that is not what the First Amendment says. The First Amendment talks about speech, it talks about 

expression. The government can’t keep you from believing anything 

anyway; you can always believe what you want to believe. The crux 

of the matter, where the rubber meets the road, if you will, is always in expression, religious expression. 

And, you know, it is interesting, the courts have given a wide 

swath on the First Amendment. For instance, we see things on TV 

and in movies now that were unthinkable a few years ago. Why? 

Because the courts say it is your First Amendment right. It doesn’t 

matter if it offends someone. And yet we hear in the military where 

someone has a Bible on their desk or they write something on a 

whiteboard and all of a sudden it offends people and it has to be 

taken down. So there is clearly a double standard being applied. 

But for Dr. Crews, I would like to ask you this. Does the Chaplain Alliance continue to receive complaints from chaplains restricting their religious expressions? 

Dr. CREWS. We have received complaints, Dr. Fleming, of a chaplain that Congressman Jones made reference to, but, more recently, 

a chaplain who was told to preach two sermons, one on Sunday 

morning and one on Sunday night, the same message in two different services, and he preached that message on a Sunday morning, and then immediately following that service he was visited by 

his supervisory chaplain and told he could not preach that same 

message in a chapel service that night. 

Dr. FLEMING. Well, could I interrupt you just for a second? 

Dr. CREWS. Yes. 

Dr. FLEMING. It states very clearly under 533, it says, no member 

of the armed services may, number one, require a chaplain to per-
18 

form any rite, ritual, or ceremony that is contrary to the conscience, moral principles, or religious beliefs of the chaplain. 

Dr. CREWS. Yes, sir. 

Dr. FLEMING. Wouldn’t that be—to require a chaplain to do that, 

wouldn’t that be a violation of—— 

Dr. CREWS. It would be a violation, yes, sir. And this chaplain 

was instructed not to preach that message because of the content 

of that particular text that he was reading from and how he was 

interpreting that text. 

But my understanding is the role of the chaplain, that we represent the faith groups who sent us there. And this chaplain was 

being totally in accord with the faith group that had sent him to 

be a chaplain. And we believe that that supervisory chaplain was 

totally out of line in trying to monitor or change that chaplain’s 

sermon material. To me, that was a gross violation of what Congress intended in section 533. 

And there are other examples, as well. 

Dr. FLEMING. Sure. 

Mr. Berry, if we impinge the rights of those who express themselves of conscience and religious beliefs, does that not also endanger those who may have atheistic, agnostic, or humanistic perspectives? 

Mr. BERRY. That is absolutely correct, Dr. Fleming. In fact, religious freedom should be of concern to all Americans, regardless of 

what faith they hold or no faith at all. 

And, in fact, even one instance of religious hostility will have and 

does have a chilling effect across the entire military, from the senior most general to the lowliest private. Just one incident is all it 

takes. And that message is sent very clearly, that if you do something that is considered to be out of line or politically incorrect, you 

will be punished. 

And, in fact, there are actual Air Force JAG memorandums expressing that opinion, as we alluded to earlier, that, although beliefs are protected in the Air Force, actions and speech stemming 

from those beliefs are still punishable. Well, that sends a very clear 

message: If you have a religious belief or no belief at all, you have 

to keep it within your own—within yourself. You cannot express it 

or speak on it. 

Dr. FLEMING. Right. 

I yield back. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Dr. Fleming. 

We now proceed to Chairman Randy Forbes of Virginia. 

Mr. FORBES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And thank you, gentlemen, for being here. I am sorry I only have 

5 minutes. I have to make my questions short and ask your answers to be even shorter. 

Mr. Weinstein, in a Washington Post article on July 16th, 2006, 

they attributed a quote to you that said, ‘‘We have created this 

foundation to be a weapon. We are going to lay down a withering 

field of fire and leave sucking chest wounds.’’ Was that an accurate 

quote? 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. By the way, it is pronounced ‘‘Weinstein.’’ 

Mr. FORBES. ‘‘Weinstein.’’ I apologize. 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. I said it earlier. 
19 

Mr. FORBES. I just need to know whether you made—— 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. What I was saying was, I said it earlier, it is 

‘‘Weinstein,’’ and maybe you weren’t listening. 

Mr. FORBES. No, what I want to know about is your quote. 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. Yeah, I wanted to make it very clear that we realize that what we are facing is a tsunami of fundamentalist Christian—— 

Mr. FORBES. Did you make that quote or not? And I know you 

want to—— 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. I am going to get to your—can I answer your 

question? 

Mr. FORBES. No, sir, because I don’t have but 4 minutes here. 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. Yeah, I will answer it in 5 seconds. 

Mr. FORBES. ‘‘Yes’’ or ‘‘no’’? 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. I am trying to explain what I said. We are facing 

a tsunami of fundamentalist Christian exceptionalism—— 

Mr. FORBES. Did you say those words? 

Mr. WEINSTEIN [continuing]. And supremacy. And—— 

Mr. FORBES. Let me ask you another one, then, if you are not 

going to answer that one. 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. No, I will be happy to tell you. Yes, of course I 

said those words, and proudly. 

Mr. FORBES. Okay. 

The second one, on June 16, 2013, you said, ‘‘Today we face incredibly well-funded gangs of fundamentalist Christian monsters 

who terrorize their fellow Americans by forcing their weaponized 

and twisted version of Christianity upon their helpless subordinates in our Nation’s Armed Forces.’’ 

Did you make that quote? 

Mr. WEINSTEIN. I did. 

Mr. FORBES. Okay. Then here is what I want to just say to you 

guys. That, to me, is the definition of coercion. 

And, Rabbi, when you gave your statement earlier—and I don’t 

think you meant this. But if I came to you with a marriage problem or financial problem or thoughts of suicide, I am looking for 

authenticity, you know? And I almost got from you the fact that 

you felt that if you weren’t telling me what I wanted to hear that 

somehow or the other that you were coercing me. And I just don’t 

think that is the definition that we want to put on our men and 

women in uniform. 

And so, Mr. Weber, I want to ask you, based on—— 

Rabbi KAHN. That was not what I meant, sir. 

Mr. FORBES [continuing]. Based on Town of Greece v. Galloway, 

can you explain what the difference is between coercion, by that 

court decision, and being offended? 

Mr. WEBER. I can, Congressman. You know, in that case, the 

Court said that, quote, ‘‘offense does not equate to coercion.’’ That 

was Justice Kennedy in a concurring opinion. 

Now, in that case, the Court was dealing with prayer in a public 

setting, a local government gathering. But what it had to confront 

was whether the offense towards people who disagreed with the 

prayer of a certain speaker who was coming and praying according 

to the dictates of a certain religion was sufficient to justify an establishment clause claim. 
20 

And, actually, if you look at the dissent, the majority and concurring opinions, the Supreme Court unanimously agreed that religion 

had a role in public life. So none of the justices said religion can’t 

be here, has no place here. They just disagreed on—they differed 

over what lengths the government had to go to to accommodate minority beliefs. But they roundly repudiated the notion that offense 

equated with coercion. 

And this is a recent decision, the Supreme Court’s ruling on an 

establishment clause case. You know, and this isn’t the only case. 

I use that as an example because I think it is pretty clear what 

they mean by ‘‘coercion’’ and ‘‘offense.’’ 

Mr. FORBES. Mr. Berry, how about you? I mean, I just can’t comprehend—our guys in the military are pretty tough. They get a lot 

of stuff thrown at them. I can’t comprehend how a cadet writing 

a scripture verse on a whiteboard is defined as coercion versus, you 

know, just even offending somebody. 

How do you look at Town of Greece v. Galloway and the difference between ‘‘offense’’ and between ‘‘coercion’’? 

Mr. BERRY. I agree with Mr. Weber’s assessment. 

And to go back to the Air Force Academy whiteboard incident, 

I actually had the opportunity to meet with the senior attorney at 

the Air Force Academy to ask why they held the position that the 

verse would have to be removed. And the position that they took 

was that, because that cadet held a position of leadership and 

under Air Force Instruction 1–1, as a leader within his cadet 

squadron, it may cause other cadets who were subordinate to that 

cadet to feel that they had to share his belief in order to curry 

favor or gain favorable treatment or it somehow was a barrier to 

access to that cadet. 

Mr. FORBES. And, see, I only have 30 seconds, but that is exactly 

what Dr. Fleming is saying. I haven’t heard any people of faith 

calling atheists monsters or saying they want to put sucking 

wounds in them. 

I mean, you are basically looking at a situation here where these 

individuals are stating what they believe and, based on that, we 

are calling that coercion, and then we are starting to restrict that 

kind of freedom of expression and belief. 

Nobody is defending individuals trying to proselytize or coerce. 

We are simply trying to say, we need a protection. Just because 

you wear a uniform doesn’t mean that you no longer have your 

right to express your freedom of your faith. 

And, Mr. Chairman, my time is out, so I yield back. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Chairman Forbes. 

We now proceed to Congresswoman Vicky Hartzler of Missouri. 

Mrs. HARTZLER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here on this very, very important topic. 

Chaplain Crews, I would like to visit with you first. Do you feel 

like that the chaplains represented by the Chaplain Alliance are 

fully confident in their ability to teach, express, and counsel based 

on the tenets of their faith without repercussions from the chain 

of command? 

Dr. CREWS. That is our sincere hope, that that has been the longstanding policy for chaplains, that chaplains, as I mentioned ear-
21 

lier, represent the faith that sent them to be chaplains. We fully 

expect a rabbi to be a rabbi and a Baptist to be a Baptist, a Catholic to be a priest. 

Where we have experienced difficulty is in a few areas now of 

some supervisory chaplains wanting to step in to monitor sermons, 

monitor prayers, monitor teachings, which has caused us to come 

to you to ask for the section 533, for which we are grateful. 

Thank you, Congresswoman. 

Mrs. HARTZLER. Since we have passed section 533, have you seen 

a change in how that has been supervised, how chaplains have 

been supervised? 

Dr. CREWS. Unfortunately, I have to say ‘‘not yet.’’ 

Now, we know that Department of Defense just earlier this year 

finally issued some implementing guidance, for which we are grateful. But we are still waiting to see how that implementing guidance 

is going to be carried out and how it is going to be taught, both 

at JAG schools and chaplain schools today. 

Mrs. HARTZLER. So, as you know, DOD policy rightly calls on 

chaplains to serve individuals of all faiths—— 

Dr. CREWS. Correct. 

Mrs. HARTZLER [continuing]. And no faith, and yet they are also 

held accountable to their faith traditions from their various denominations that support them. 

So, as a chaplain, how do you balance these two aspects of your 

job? Must you be nonsectarian in all the duties that you perform? 

Dr. CREWS. I tell the chaplains that I endorse, you serve everyone who walks through your door or you meet in the motor pool 

with grace and dignity. You are there to support them. And you are 

there to either perform the duties that you can perform according 

to your faith conscience, or if you cannot, then you are to provide 

for them, you are to find someone who can do that. 

And, by and large, chaplains have been doing that successfully 

since 1775, providing and performing those religious ministries. 

And so, yes, our chaplains today are great men and women of the 

cloth who are serving all who come to them, without any discrimination as to who they are, with the understanding that I tell our 

chaplains, you have to be clear, that if someone is coming to you 

for counsel, you have to be clear upfront, I am going to counsel you 

from a biblical perspective. If that is a problem, then let me find 

another chaplain that you may be more comfortable with. That has 

been working well, and we trust that it is going to continue to work 

well. 

Mrs. HARTZLER. I certainly hope so. I certainly hope so, as well. 

Mr. Weber, I just wanted to follow up on something you said earlier. In light of the recent Supreme Court precedent, if I am offended at something someone else has said about their faith, does 

that mean it was a violation of the establishment clause? 

Mr. WEBER. Congresswoman, it does not mean there was a violation of the establishment clause. 

Now, as I mentioned, that case dealt with a specific context. But 

the Court was very clear; in dealing with the context in that case, 

it noted that American citizens can deal with offense. As part of a 

free democracy, we engage in robust debate and come into conflict 
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with opinions with which we disagree all the time. Therefore, you 

are going to have to live with being offended. 

Now, it was a local government context, but, you know, I think 

we can trust service men and women who are facing battle conditions and the dangers of war and all sorts of other offending circumstances, that a viewpoint with which they disagree is not going 

to be a problem. 

Mrs. HARTZLER. Good. We certainly hope not. We want to protect 

our religious freedoms. 

Thank you. I yield back. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Ms. Hartzler. 

We now proceed to Congressman Doug Lamborn of Colorado. 

Mr. LAMBORN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks for having 

this hearing. 

And I first want to say God bless each one of you for your service. 

I have the honor of representing the Air Force Academy. And, 

after the whiteboard incident, I went over there to see what the 

whiteboards looked like, and they are actually real small. They are 

about the size of this piece of paper, right outside the dormitory 

doors that each person has. 

Mr. Berry, was anything wrong with a cadet, whatever his role 

or position, writing an inspirational Bible verse on his whiteboard? 

Mr. BERRY. No. And, in fact, Mr. Lamborn, that was really the 

issue that I raised with the attorney there, was that they had 

stopped reading Air Force Instruction 1–1, at least the version that 

existed at the time—it has been since revised—but they stopped 

reading it at paragraph 2–11, which says that the requirement of 

government neutrality toward religion. 

And I said, what about the very next paragraph, which says that 

airmen are able to freely practice their own beliefs? And what 

about the protections that exist in DOD Instruction 1300.17? 

And the response, unfortunately, I received was, well, this is not, 

you know, my policy, this is Air Force policy coming from the Pentagon. So it was a very unsatisfactory answer. 

But you are absolutely right, Mr. Lamborn, that that cadet had 

every right under our Constitution to express his religious belief or 

no belief at all. 

Mr. LAMBORN. And we have talked a little bit about leadership. 

And my concern is that, if taken to an extreme, someone who is 

a leader and has a religious component to his or her life of any of 

a multitude of religions, and to not be able to ever discuss that 

would be dishonest with other people. Do you agree with that? 

Mr. BERRY. Yes, sir. And, in fact, that reminds me of the very 

last thing that my commanding officer said to our unit in Afghanistan before we departed friendly confines, and that was that we 

had been physically prepared to fight the enemy but that it was up 

to each of us to make sure that we were mentally and spiritually 

prepared to fight, that we were to fight with a clean heart and a 

clean conscience. 

Mr. LAMBORN. Dr. Crews, I offered an amendment to the NDAA 

this last summer, which was accepted by the whole House, and it 

required the Air Force to rewrite its religious liberty regulations. 

What is your opinion on the new Air Force regulation language? 
23 

Dr. CREWS. We are very grateful for the new language. We believe that it brings that Air Force policy more closely in line with 

the intent of your committee with 533. 

I am not an attorney and don’t play one on TV, but my reading 

of it, I understand it to be more in line with Federal law, RFRA 

[Religious Freedom Restoration Act]. It uses some of the RFRA language that I think helps—will help commanders and JAGs to be 

better able to make decisions like the whiteboard incident, like this 

dear colonel’s article, that there is no reason why people of faith, 

regardless of their rank, cannot be able to express that faith while 

they are wearing the uniform. 

Mr. LAMBORN. Okay. Thank you. 

And, Mr. Weber, you gave us a quote in your testimony to the 

effect that being offended doesn’t mean being coerced. 

If someone like Mr. Weinstein is offended by an evangelical 

Christian, whether it is a chaplain or an airman or an officer, talking about his faith, does that translate into being coerced? 

Mr. WEBER. Congressman, it does not. You know, as I mentioned—and this comes from the Supreme Court this year—offense 

itself does not mean there is coercion. And, you know, I think that 

is a policy and a principle that can be easily applied to uphold the 

right of all to live out their lives in accordance with conscience and 

beliefs. 

Mr. LAMBORN. Well, I am going to yield back, but, once again, 

I thank all five of you for your service. 

Mr. Chairman, I yield back. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Mr. Lamborn. 

And we now will be concluding with Congressman Tim 

Huelskamp of Kansas. 

Mr. HUELSKAMP. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, for allowing 

me to participate in this hearing. And I would like to thank the 

members of the committee that have done a superb job on protecting religious liberty. 

And this issue means a lot to me personally, Mr. Chairman. In 

our family, we just buried my uncle, who had served 30 years as 

a U.S. Army chaplain, at age 97, and served many tours of duty. 

And so this means a lot to me. 

And I would like to first ask Dr. Crews a question. 

And, as you know, DOD policy calls on chaplains to serve individuals of all faith and no faith, and yet they are also held accountable to the faith traditions that support their endorsements. As a 

chaplain, how do you balance these two aspects of the job? 

Dr. CREWS. That is a good question. And, as I said, chaplains 

wear two hats. We are chaplains, we are ministers or rabbis or people of the cloth, as we say, that represent the faith group from 

which we come. We are also staff officers at whatever level that we 

are serving. And we are to be that advisor to the commander on 

morale and the welfare of the military persons that we are serving. 

Historically, chaplains have done a great job, I think, of balancing that fine line of being true to their convictions, being true 

to their conscience, and yet serving a broad multitude of faiths or 

no faiths. 

I know in my last assignment at Fort Campbell, we had a group 

of pagans, and they wanted to have a space to do what they do. 
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And it was part of my job as the chaplain to provide that space and 

also to provide any funds that they may need to carry out so that 

they could practice their faith, or non-faith. 

And I think chaplains, by and large, have done an excellent job 

of that. And we want to make sure that chaplains are continued 

to be encouraged, that they can be representatives of their faith 

group without fear of recrimination, particularly in this politicized 

society and culture we live in right now. 

Mr. HUELSKAMP. Yeah, Dr. Crews. And I do hear from chaplains, 

not only in my district but elsewhere in the country, that are worried. They fear for their rights of conscience, their ability to serve 

men and women who are putting their lives on the line. 

And do you think the DOD is adequately protecting their conscience as well as the members are that they try to serve? 

Dr. CREWS. These are challenging days. It is a different day. 

Rabbi Kahn and I were talking before the hearing about how it is 

a different day now than when we were serving on Active Duty. 

And it is particularly because of the cultural climate change that 

has taken place in our country and in our military. And it is making it difficult for some who particularly come from an orthodox— 

and that is with a little ‘‘o’’—faith background understanding of 

biblical values and morals, that they may not be in the politically 

accepted camp right now. 

And so, for them to be able to continue to serve and be seen as 

a team player, to be able to do the marriage retreats that they 

want to do but yet they cannot because they are told that they 

would have to violate their conscience in order to do those marriage 

retreats, that is a growing concern. And how that is solved is—I 

don’t think we have found the answers yet in any of the branches. 

But we are hopeful that the chiefs of chaplains understand and 

believe that they do and want to support—we believe that they 

want to support the chaplains that they are supervising to be able 

to be faithful to their faith group and yet to be able to serve all 

of the service members of their units and commands. 

Mr. HUELSKAMP. Yeah. And I appreciate, particularly work on 

the committee and in certain traditions, particularly Roman Catholic traditions, the ability to find enough priests to serve our Catholic men and women is extremely limited. And there are things we 

can do as Congress to make that easier. And, certainly, protecting 

their conscience is definitely one of those that rates very highly. 

Mr. Weber, if we might finalize, if you could talk a little bit 

about, just quickly, a dynamic that makes it important for the 

Armed Forces to protect the religious expression of our chaplains. 

Mr. WEBER. Absolutely, Congressman. You know, I think as Dr. 

Crews has already pointed out, what we are interested in seeing 

is chaplains’ ability to act and live out their conscience and faith 

according to their deeply held beliefs in their role as a chaplain, 

just as the rest of us may seek to live out certain beliefs in our 

lives or at work or as we go about our daily business. 

You know, so, to that extent, you know, we are pleased that the 

language protecting chaplains is in place, you know, the way that 

has worked out in practice. And how it looks going forward, in 

terms of how it is practiced at all levels of the military, is going 

to be continually important. But like the protection of religious ex-
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pression for service men and women, we obviously care about it 

being in place for chaplains, too, you know. And I concur with everything that Dr. Crews has said here. 

Mr. HUELSKAMP. Okay. 

Well, Mr. Chairman, thank you. I yield back. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Congressman Huelskamp. 

And I recognize Congressman Dr. John Fleming for a unanimous-consent request. 

Dr. FLEMING. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent—the 

question was brought up about a survey showing that 25 percent 

of the military, when it came to religious diversity, were—I am not 

sure if I recall correctly the word used—atheist or nonbelievers or 

something like that. 

And I refer back to, and I would like to submit for the record, 

from the Military Leadership Diversity Commission a religious diversity in the U.S. military study that was done, pretty large 

study. What it actually showed was 4 percent humanist, which is 

the closest it came to atheist; 12.1 percent were no religious affiliation reported. That is to say, they didn’t necessarily affiliate with 

one denomination or another, which is a trend in the evangelical 

world. I am a Baptist, and many people now say that they are 

evangelical or they are not attached to any specific denomination. 

So that is really a misrepresentation of what the real percentages are in that. And I wanted to be sure and submit this study. 

It is a pretty good study from 2009. 

Mr. WILSON. Is there any objection? 

Without objection, so ordered. 

[The information referred to can be found in the Appendix on 

page 169.] 

Mr. WILSON. I would like to thank Ms. Davis again for her role 

as the ranking member of the committee. 

We appreciate each of the witnesses being here today. 

I particularly want to thank the Military Personnel Subcommittee professional staff, led by Jeanette James, David 

Giachetti, Colin Bosse, additionally Craig Greene. And we have 

been very fortunate to pick up recently assigned Darreisha Bates. 

If there is nothing further, we shall be adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 4:07 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

A P P E N D I X 

NOVEMBER 19, 2014 

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QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MEMBERS POST HEARING 

NOVEMBER 19, 2014 

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QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MR. FORBES 

Mr. FORBES. During your testimony, you discussed that a chaplain’s job is both 

to perform and to provide for men and women in uniform. Can you elaborate on the 

meaning of this mission, both with respect to supporting service members of all 

faiths, as well as to the ways in which a chaplain is responsible to his or her endorser? As a retired chaplain and an endorser yourself, how do you advise the chaplains that you endorse in navigating these two complimentary missions? 

Dr. CREWS. The terms ‘‘perform or provide’’ come from Army Chaplaincy training 

materials. The other services have similar designations, the Air Force says, ‘‘provide 

or provide for’’. What this means is that chaplains are expected to perform those 

ministries for service members from a similar faith background. For instance, as an 

Evangelical Presbyterian chaplain I could baptize both infants and adults either by 

sprinkling or emersion as long as the parents met the spiritual qualifications according to the Book of Government. That is ‘‘performing’’. However, if a Catholic soldier requested baptism for his child I would connect them to a Catholic chaplain 

or contract priest to perform that rite. That is ‘‘provide’’. 

I encourage the chaplains I endorse to be faithful to our chaplain guidelines, to 

be true to their own consciences, and to minister with grace to those they are not 

able to serve directly. I encourage my chaplains to be clear up front that they provide counseling from a Biblical perspective and if a service member is not comfortable with that they should graciously offer to refer them to another chaplain or 

counselor. 

Mr. FORBES. Can you provide a brief history of how and why George Washington 

formed the chaplaincy in 1775? 

Dr. CREWS. At a time when preaching non-Anglican beliefs was punished by law 

in Virginia, then Colonel George Washington made sure the non-Anglicans under 

his command had a chaplain who shared their specific religious faith and could 

meet their spiritual needs. 

In 1758, during the French and Indian War, the state of Virginia created and provided regimental chaplains at the request of Colonel George Washington. See Anson 

Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol. 1 at 268 (1950). These 

chaplains were not forced to suppress their distinct denominational or sectarian beliefs and practices. Rather, it was known and welcomed that they represented not 

only the official Church of England, but also minority religions including Congregationalists, Anglicans, Presbyterians, and Baptists. Id.; see also William J. Hourihan, 

Pro Deo et Patria: A Brief History of the United States Chaplain Corps at 3 (2004). 

This spirit of accommodation and pluralism continued in the Revolutionary War. 

See Stokes at 268 (noting that on August 16, 1775, the Virginia Convention required 

that commanding officers ‘‘permit Dissenting clergymen to celebrate divine worship, 

and to preach to the soldiers’’). On July 29, 1775, the Continental Congress authorized pay for chaplains and soon thereafter General George Washington ordered that 

chaplains be procured for the Continental Army. Katcoff, 755 F.2d at 225 (citations 

omitted). 

Mr. FORBES. In your testimony before the committee, you discussed the recent Supreme Court case of Town of Greece vs. Galloway. Can you please elaborate that 

testimony based on the following questions: 

Are there any court rulings indicating that ‘‘offense’’ in the military context should 

be grounds for restrictions on religious speech? 

Mr. WEBER. No—‘‘offense’’ alone cannot serve as a reason to restrict speech. Even 

in the military, with its concerns for good order and discipline, ‘‘we must be sensitive to protection of ‘the principle of free thought—not free thought for those who 

agree with us but freedom for the thought that we hate.’ ’’ United States v. Priest, 

21 U.S.C.M.A. 564, 570 (C.M.A. 1972) (quoting United States v. Schwimmer, 279 

U.S. 644, 654–655 (1929)). 

Moreover, even in the military, ‘‘[t]he Establishment Clause clearly forbids that 

there should be any official judgments about the correctness of religious beliefs.’’ 

Veitch v. Danzig, 135 F. Supp. 2d 32, 35 (D.D.C. 2001) (noting that any ‘‘religious 

orthodoxy mandated by the Navy—even one officially sanctioned as appropriate for 

a military population of diverse religious beliefs,’’ such as requiring chaplains to 
180 

‘‘preach ‘pluralism among religions’ and/or ‘inclusiveness,’ ’’ would cause serious 

First Amendment problems). Thus, ‘‘offense’’ at religious speech cannot justify government modification of such speech. 

It is clear that speech which affects uniformity and order by directly attacking the 

military’s mission can be regulated. Priest, 21 U.S.C.M.A. at 566, 571–72 (publishing 

an underground newspaper denouncing the foreign policy of the United States in 

Vietnam and ‘‘calling for violent and revolutionary action’’); United States v. Gray, 

20 U.S.C.M.A. 63, 65, 68–69 (C.M.A. 1970) (public statement in logbook denouncing 

the United States and its policies and indicating intent to leave the country). 

But even ‘‘offensive’’ speech must impact military readiness in some way before 

it can be regulated; the claim that it has offended an individual or group is insufficient to proscribe it. United States v. Wilcox, 66 M.J. 442, 448–49 (C.A.A.F. 2008) 

(finding that even racist speech made on the internet, though offensive, was protected by the First Amendment). 

For example, purely religiously-motivated speech cannot be regulated absent a 

clear showing of how it affects military readiness. See Rigdon v. Perry, 962 F. Supp. 

150, 161–62 (D.D.C. 1997). This is even the case when the government’s interest is 

arguably higher—such as when the speech touches on political matters. See id. 

In Rigdon, the court ruled that chaplains’ speech urging parishioners to contact 

Congress in support of the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act is protected by the Religious Freedom Restoration Act and the First Amendment and may not be restricted 

by the military. Id. While ‘‘military readiness and national defense’’ are compelling 

government interests, restricting chaplain speech—even ‘‘political’’ and possibly offensive speech—did not advance these interests, which ‘‘are outweighed by the military chaplains’ right to autonomy in determining the religious content of their sermons.’’ Id. 

If advocating from the pulpit on a political issue does not disrupt military order, 

then advocating from the pulpit on a variety of other religious issues should also 

be protected. 

Mr. FORBES. The military must simultaneously protect free exercise and freedom 

of expression for service members, while also preserving good order and discipline. 

How is this balance maintained? 

Mr. WEBER. This balance is maintained carefully, by ensuring that constitutional 

rights are vigorously protected within the military as long as their exercise is not 

aimed at undermining the good order and discipline of the military. The Supreme 

Court has said that ‘‘[t]he fundamental necessity for obedience, and the consequent 

necessity for imposition of discipline, may render permissible within the military 

that which would be constitutionally impermissible outside it.’’ Parker v. Levy, 417 

U.S. 733, 758 (1974). Thus, ‘‘[t]he test in the military is whether the speech interferes with or prevents the orderly accomplishment of the mission or presents a clear 

danger to loyalty, discipline, mission, or morale of the troops.’’ United States v. 

Brown, 45 M.J. 389, 395 (C.A.A.F. 1996). ‘‘Servicemembers as well as the public in 

general have a right to voice their views so long as it does not impact on discipline, 

morale, esprit de corps, and civilian supremacy.’’ Id. at 396. 

Speech protected by the First Amendment outside the military can only be regulated in the military (1) when the government can show ‘‘a reasonably direct and 

palpable connection between the speech and the military mission or military environment,’’ and (2) when the military’s interests in regulating the speech outweigh 

First Amendment concerns. United States v. Wilcox, 66 M.J. 442, 448–49 (C.A.A.F. 

2008). For ‘‘in speech cases, our national reluctance to inhibit free expression dictates that the connection between the statements or publications involved and their 

effect on military discipline be closely examined.’’ United States v. Priest, 21 

U.S.C.M.A. 564, 569–70 (C.M.A. 1972) (emphasis added). 

For instance, organizing a strike of Louisiana National Guard working conditions 

during a time of on-going military operations in Iraq constitutes unprotected speech 

because of its direct effect on military operations. Brown, 45 M.J. at 395–96. Because such actions—despite being protected in the civilian context—directly undermine military order, they can be proscribed. 

On the other hand, online postings involving racist speech, though vile and offensive to many, are protected under the First Amendment even for servicemembers— 

when they are not directed at or connected the military mission. Wilcox, 66 M.J. at 

448–49. 

Recent restrictions of religious expression in the military cannot be justified under 

the legal framework outlined above. An Air Force Academy cadet sharing a religious 

saying on his whiteboard does not ‘‘interfere[] with or prevent[] the orderly accomplishment of the mission.’’ Brown, 45 M.J. at 395. Neither does it ‘‘present[] a clear 

danger to loyalty, discipline, mission, or morale of the troops.’’ Id. Personally sharing how faith has impacted one’s life also does not disrupt unit morale or cohesion— 
181 

whether the person sharing is an officer or enlisted servicemember. These matters 

do not threaten unit cohesion in the same way organizing a strike, see Brown, 45 

M.J. at 395–96, or urging servicemembers not to fight in an on-going war would. 

See Parker, 417 U.S. at 758. Nor are they like a commander forcing subordinates 

to listen to a sermon—such a scenario would be coercive and would disrupt unit cohesion. The type of speech which has been suppressed by the military in the past 

year—such as an Ohio Air National Guard commander’s personal story in a base 

newsletter—is the type of entirely innocuous speech that no one would even question as coming close to disrupting military discipline. Yet the government has allowed such restrictions to occur, despite the clear legal requirement to show that 

military order and discipline is affected before speech can be suppressed. 

Chaplains are entitled to these same protections. When chaplains’ messages are 

censored, violations of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, see Rigdon, 962 F. 

Supp. at 161–62, and the First Amendment occur. See Veitch, 135 F. Supp. 2d at 

35. Additionally, censorship puts the government in the unacceptable position of 

pronouncing ‘‘what shall be orthodox in . . . religion’’ and ‘‘force[s] citizens to confess 

by word or act their faith therein.’’ West Virginia Bd. of Education v. Barnette, 319 

U.S. 624, 642 (1943). No government body—civilian or military—should be making 

such pronouncements. 

Mr. FORBES. How is protecting the ability of a service member to freely practice 

their faith particularly important in the context of military service, and how does 

it contribute to military readiness and morale? 

Mr. WEBER. When Americans join our nation’s military, they give up certain liberties. Yet, they retain Free Exercise rights under the First Amendment to the Constitution. Thus, the military has a responsibility to provide them the means of Free 

Exercise—this includes in part, providing access to the chaplaincy. Katcoff v. Marsh, 

755 F.2d 223, 234 (2d Cir. 1985) (‘‘Unless the Army provided a chaplaincy it would 

deprive the soldier of his right under the Establishment Clause not to have religion 

inhibited and of his right under the Free Exercise Clause to practice his freely chosen religion.’’). Chaplains meet spiritual needs of soldiers by providing counsel and 

teaching troops how to live one’s life in accordance with one’s religious beliefs. In 

so doing, chaplains ensure that readiness and morale do not suffer by lack of access 

to religious services. 

However, providing access to chaplains is only part of the military’s responsibility 

to provide for Free Exercise rights. The military must also ensure that servicemembers can practice their faith outside of a military chapel by being free to speak about 

their faith in conversation and daily life. To limit the expression of spirituality to 

a chapel service or private conversation with a chaplain is to ignore the all-encompassing nature of religious belief. Indeed, it is specifically the expression of religious 

beliefs that Congress sought to protect in enacting language in the Fiscal Year 2013 

and Fiscal Year 2014 National Defense Authorization Acts that reiterate the freedom chaplains and servicemembers alike have to speak about and practice their 

faith. 

Notable military leaders have relied on religious faith to survive the ordeals of 

war. For instance, President Roosevelt recognized the importance of spiritual matters in considering military readiness when he penned an introduction to a Bible 

to be issued to troops as they headed off to fight in World War II. The introduction 

commended the reading of the Bible to all in the Armed Forces as a source of ‘‘wisdom, counsel and inspiration’’ and as a ‘‘fountain of strength.’’ 

During the Vietnam War, when he was held for years by the North Vietnamese 

as a prisoner-of-war, Naval officer and pilot Jeremiah Denton relied on a deep 

Christian faith to help him endure his ordeal. Similarly, Jeff Struecker, an Army 

ranger who was sent back into a fire-fight in the streets of Mogadishu to rescue fallen comrades during the ‘‘Black Hawk Down’’ incident, has discussed his dependence 

on God for strength during that operation. 

Yet when military leaders today seek to reference a reliance on faith, they face 

career consequences. Just this fall, Colonel Florencio Marquinez of the Ohio Air National Guard wrote about the important role his religious beliefs played in his personal life in a unit newsletter. For mentioning God, his story was censored and removed from publication. 

Such actions by misinformed commanders deny servicemembers the ability to confidently practice their own faith, removing a key source of strength and resiliency 

for many men and women. The uncertainty created by command actions that stifle 

religious speech contributes to a climate of distrust and fear. In an environment in 
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1 Andrew Tilghman, McCain: Military Times report on low morale should spur Congress to act, 

Military Times, Dec. 9, 2014, http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/pentagon/2014/12/08/ 

john-mccain-low-military-morale-survey-statement-congress-military-times/20118517/. 2 A Soldier’s Morality, Religion, and Our Professional Ethic: Does the Army’s Culture Facilitate 

Integration, Character Development, and Trust in the Profession?, Don M. Snider and Alexander 

P. Shine, U.S. Army War College Strategic Studies Institute, Professional Military Ethics Monograph Series, Volume 6, Apr. 2014, page 29, available at http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute 

.army.mil/pubs/display.cfm?pubID=1203. 3 Id. 

which military morale is at a new alarming low,1 military leadership must not alienate religious servicemembers in actions that violate constitutional and statutory 

requirements to accommodate religious expression. 

Additionally, limiting the ability of servicemembers to express religious faith can 

risk undermining the legitimacy of many servicemembers’ ethical standards. A 

sense of accountability to God leads many servicemembers to behave with self-discipline, empowering many servicemembers to live up to military ideals of service. 

For ‘‘[a] Soldier seriously committed to his or her personal morality, whether 

grounded in a religious faith or not, is prone more than he or she would otherwise 

be to live up to the high ethical ideals of the Army Profession not in spite of, but 

because of his or her personal convictions.’’ 2 Yet these same soldiers are in danger 

of leaving a military they see as ‘‘increasingly hostile toward religious expression.’’ 3

Mr. FORBES. Does fixating on ‘‘offense’’ rather than coercion as a standard for 

maintaining order potentially undermine larger goals for cultivating respect and tolerance for diverse viewpoints in the military? 

Mr. WEBER. Yes. Using ‘‘offense’’ alone as the standard for censoring speech or 

viewpoints would result in an unworkable standard given the disagreements inherent in human interactions and any exchange of ideas. More importantly, limiting 

speech due to potential or actual threats of ‘‘offense’’ would produce a forum of uniform views, or at the very least, a forum where nothing of substance or controversy 

is ever discussed. Such a possibility should be alarming since it is only in a context 

of diverse opinions that the opportunity to practice true tolerance and respect occurs. Furthermore, regulation of speech based on its particular religious content constitutes viewpoint discrimination—an unlawful and even more ‘‘egregious form of 

content discrimination.’’ Rosenberger v. Rector & Visitors of the Univ. of Virginia, 

515 U.S. 819, 829 (1995). 

The inability to tolerate different views due to the slightest ‘‘offense’’ already infects certain sectors of academia but in particular should alarm those charged with 

oversight of our nation’s military academies. Having been a Naval officer, I can testify to the need for mental resilience—a characteristic developed in part by learning 

to tolerate different views, to be disciplined in reactions, and to be secure in one’s 

own convictions so as not to be threatened by another’s. Though physical abilities 

undergird military readiness, mental toughness is also necessary for an effective 

fighting force. It’s that mental grit which is threatened when today’s soldiers learn 

to be quick to claim ‘‘offense’’ at ideas and opinions they don’t like. 

Such reflexive intolerance cannot produce the type of well-rounded citizens necessary for representing American democracy and defending her interests overseas. 

Furthermore, training servicemembers to be divisive by seeking the suppression of 

views different from their own threatens to undermine the ability to be unified in 

battle with their fellow soldiers—who no doubt have different views on at least some 

matters. 

Our military men and women must learn to tolerate the different views of their 

fellow soldiers on things such as religion so that they then can be unified in the 

pressing, important business of warfighting. We do no service to our future military 

leaders by acceding to demands for suppression of religious speech out of a desire 

to promote a veneer of ‘‘unity.’’ True unit cohesion involves building and retaining 

trust and confidence in one’s fellow soldier to perform the core duties of military 

service, even when a fellow soldier may disagree with one’s personal beliefs. Indeed, 

future officers being trained at our elite military institutions are better served when 

they understand that part of living in a pluralistic society is encountering different 

opinions. 

The Supreme Court touched on this point in Town of Greece when it stated that 

in a democracy ‘‘[a]dults often encounter speech they find disagreeable; and an Establishment Clause violation is not made out any time a person experiences a sense 

of affront from the expression of contrary religious views.’’ Town of Greece, 134 S. 

Ct. at 1826. The Court was referring to a legislative forum in that case. But if this 

is expected of American citizens, we can and should expect that our tough men and 

women in the armed services, who we ask to bear the trials of war, will also be able 
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to bear hearing different views. Indeed, it would be insulting to them to suggest 

they could not. 

QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY DR. FLEMING 

Dr. FLEMING. During your testimony, you mentioned your own personal experience as an example of the lack of training in First Amendment law that military 

attorneys receive. What key categories of First Amendment law are missing in current military legal education programs, and what steps do you recommend the various branches take to correct this? 

Mr. BERRY. The greatest deficiency in First Amendment training is with respect 

to the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses; issues regarding freedom of the 

press and assembly are exceedingly rare in the military context. This is a convoluted area of the law that requires a degree of subject-matter expertise to avoid 

legal issues. The fact that there are nuances specific to the military compounds this. 

I recommend the military institute formal First Amendment training for the 3 most 

critical audiences: military attorneys (‘‘JAGs’’), chaplains, and commanders. If this 

is not feasible, at the very minimum, military attorneys should receive this training. 

This could be accomplished at the service JAG schools with minimal impact to their 

existing academic calendars. Military attorneys currently receive substantial legal 

training in many areas of the law in which they are expected to possess competence 

(e.g., criminal law, fiscal law, ethics, etc.). The only logistical issue might be the lack 

of military attorneys with this subject-matter expertise. A possible solution might 

be to allow expert practitioners to provide this instruction. 

Dr. FLEMING. During your testimony, you mentioned that military case law supports the concept that ‘‘offense does not equal coercion.’’ Can you offer specific examples or an explanation of this concept? 

Mr. BERRY. Under existing Supreme Court and military case law, the critical inquiry is not whether someone is offended by religious expression, but rather it is 

whether there is actual or implied coercion. Town of Greece v. Galloway, 134 S. Ct. 

1811, 1826 (2014); Elk Grove Unified Sch. Dist. v. Newdow, 542 U.S. 1, 44 (2004). 

In 1972, the highest military court recognized that ‘‘we must be sensitive to protection of ‘the principle of free thought—not free thought for those who agree with 

us but freedom for the thought that we hate.’’’ United States v. Priest, 21 U.S.C.M.A. 

564 (C.M.A. 1972). The court went on to explain that service member expression is 

protected unless it undermines the effectiveness of response to command. One of my 

fellow witnesses, Mr. Weinstein, frequently cites the case of Parker v. Levy for the 

proposition that the military is a different, specialized society, and therefore the 

rules of free speech and religious expression are different. But Parker was not about 

religious expression. Parker involved a soldier who protested the Vietnam War by 

encouraging others to refuse to serve for political reasons. Indeed, nearly every case 

in which a court upheld the right of the military to censor or restrict speech involved political—not religious—expression. Religious expression, on the other hand, 

has historically enjoyed substantial protection in our courts. 

In 1985, the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit decided the 

case of Katcoff v. Marsh, 755 F.2d 223 (2d Cir. 1985). In Katcoff, two Harvard Law 

School students challenged the constitutionality of the U.S. Army’s chaplaincy, arguing that government provision and funding of chaplains in order to provide for religious practice violated the Establishment Clause. The court rejected that argument, 

reasoning that, because of the rigors of military life, a service member’s ability to 

freely practice their religion would be stifled unless the military provided chaplains. 

Importantly, the court held that the Constitution ‘‘obligates Congress, upon creating 

an Army, to make religion available to soldiers who have been moved by the Army 

to areas of the world where religion of their own denominations is not available to 

them.’’ 

Therefore, religious expression by service members is not only permitted, but it 

is constitutionally protected. The only time the military can lawfully censor or prohibit it is when it prejudices good order and discipline, or degrades the ability to 

accomplish the mission. But it is insufficient to allege that religious expression undermines good order and discipline or unit morale merely because it offends someone. As stated, the critical inquiry is whether there is religious coercion, which the 

Establishment Clause of the First Amendment forbids. In the context of the Establishment Clause the United States Supreme Court has repeatedly, and recently, 

stated that, offense does not equal coercion. Moreover, in United States v. Wilcox, 

66 M.J. 442 (C.A.A.F. 2008), the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces stated that 

even racist or supremacist speech is not punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) because it is protected by the First Amendment. If the First 
184 

Amendment protects racist or supremacist speech, then it certainly protects religious speech. 

Dr. FLEMING. During your testimony, you described that the perception of religious hostility will result in a ‘‘chilling effect’’ on religious expression in the military. 

What can our military leaders do to reverse the perception of religious hostility? 

Mr. BERRY. Our military leaders must address this issue in the same manner they 

have been trained to accomplish any military mission. First, we must acknowledge 

that a problem exists. If our senior military officials fail to recognize the moral injuries that depriving and chilling religious expression has on our service members, 

nothing will be accomplished. Second, there must be an understanding that protecting religious freedom is a positive attribute. Stated differently, our military leaders must recognize the intrinsic benefits that religious freedom imbues. By all measures, America’s military has always been, and continues to be, a religious force. If 

people of faith—any faith—do not feel free to live out their faith free from fear of 

harassment, punishment, or disapproval, we will see our force strength dwindle. 

Eventually, this degradation may lead to retention and recruitment issues, which 

in turn may become a national security issue. Finally, we must dedicate resources: 

time, energy, manpower, and money, to the problem. Our military has shown a remarkable ability to use the existing resources to tackle some of the most contentious 

social issues of our time: sexual assault, drug use, gang violence, etc. And although 

these issues continue to present, that is merely a reflection of our society as a 

whole, and not a lack of success or effort within our military. 

Dr. FLEMING. During your testimony, you mentioned that military case law supports the concept that ‘‘offense does not equal coercion.’’ Can you offer specific examples or an explanation of this concept? 

Mr. WEBER. When, in Town of Greece v. Galloway, 134 S. Ct. 1811, 1826 (2014), 

the Supreme Court stated that ‘‘[o]ffense . . . does not equate to coercion,’’ it was saying that merely feeling affronted by others’ views or speech (‘‘offense’’) is not the 

same thing as being forced to act in accordance with another’s beliefs under threat 

of punishment (‘‘coercion’’). As Justice Kennedy also explained in that opinion, ‘‘impermissible coercion’’ does not occur ‘‘merely by exposing constituents to prayer they 

would rather not hear and in which they need not participate.’’ Town of Greece, 134 

S. Ct. at 1827. 

Offense is not a sufficient basis for an Establishment Clause claim. Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577, 597 (1992) (‘‘People may take offense at all manner of religious as well as nonreligious messages, but offense alone does not in every case 

show a violation.’’); see also Elk Grove Unified Sch. Dist. v. Newdow, 542 U.S. 1, 

44 (2004) (O’Connor, J., concurring) (‘‘[T]he Constitution does not guarantee citizens 

a right entirely to avoid ideas with which they disagree. It would betray its own 

principles if it did; no robust democracy insulates its citizens from views that they 

might find novel or even inflammatory.’’). ‘‘Town of Greece made obvious’’ that feeling angry, upset, or offended at indications of religion ‘‘is insufficient to state an Establishment Clause violation.’’ Elmbrook Sch. Dist. v. Doe, 134 S. Ct. 2283, 2285 

(2014) (Scalia, J., dissenting from denial of cert.). 

On the other hand, coercion—defined as ‘‘coercion of religious orthodoxy and of financial support by force of law and threat of penalty,’’ Town of Greece, 134 S. Ct. 

at 1837 (Thomas, J., concurring) (quoting Lee, 505 U.S. at 640 (Scalia, J., dissenting))—is a sufficient basis for an Establishment Clause claim. 

Similarly, in the military ‘‘offense’’ is not a principle upon which one can object 

to other views. For even in the military, ‘‘we must be sensitive to protection of ‘the 

principle of free thought—not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom 

for the thought that we hate.’ ’’ United States v. Priest, 21 U.S.C.M.A. 564, 570 

(C.M.A. 1972) (quoting United States v. Schwimmer, 279 U.S. 644, 654–655 (1929)). 

It is clear that speech which affects uniformity and order by directly attacking the 

military’s mission can be regulated. Priest, 21 U.S.C.M.A. at 566, 571–72 (publishing 

underground newspaper denouncing the foreign policy of the United States in Vietnam and ‘‘calling for violent and revolutionary action’’); United States v. Gray, 20 

U.S.C.M.A. 63, 65, 68–69 (C.M.A. 1970) (public statement in logbook denouncing the 

United States and its policies and indicating intent to leave the country). But where 

speech does not have a close connection to the military or military mission or environment, the military’s interest in regulating the speech is lower. United States v. 

Wilcox, 66 M.J. 442, 448–49 (C.A.A.F. 2008). In addition, the speech’s offensive nature alone is an insufficient basis to outlaw it under the Uniform Code of Military 

Justice. Id. (finding that even racist speech made on the internet, though offensive, 

was protected by the First Amendment). 

Just as servicemembers’ Free Speech rights cannot be sacrificed to avoid ‘‘offense,’’ 

neither can their Free Exercise rights—nor can they be diminished in subjugation 

to a reading of the Establishment Clause requiring the government to scrub all reli-
185 

gious expression from any program remotely associated with it. See Katcoff v. 

Marsh, 755 F.2d 223, 234 (2d Cir. 1985) (‘‘Unless the Army provided a chaplaincy 

it would deprive the soldier of his right under the Establishment Clause not to have 

religion inhibited and of his right under the Free Exercise Clause to practice his 

freely chosen religion.’’). Thus, both in and outside of the military context, when 

First Amendment rights are at issue, ‘‘offense’’ alone entitles no one to a legal remedy. 

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