Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access 

Realtime Translation (CART) system used in the Rooms and Spaces 

Subcommittee Meeting #2 and is generally unedited. The CART 

system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with 

hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real-time 

and available to the public on the internet during the meeting. 

United States Access Board

RVAAC Teleconference

Rooms and Spaces Subcommittee Meeting #2

Thursday June 19, 2014

>> PAUL BEATTY: Thank you. This is -- good afternoon, this is 

Paul Beatty, welcome to the second meeting of the rooms and spaces 

subcommittee. As you know since anyone may participate in 

subcommittee discussions no time for public comment has been 

scheduled during this two-hour call. Although we may or may not 

have a CART system chat box available, to allow the operator to -- of the 

CART system to perform her duties for subcommittee participants only 

using CART to participate and desire to raise a question or make a 

statement, we request that you use E-mail: RVAAC @ 

access-board.gov. Send your question or statement to that we will 

monitor that E-mail address and raise your question or make your 

statement on the line.

Please remember to give your name when speaking, as a reminder 
the next meeting of the subcommittee is scheduled for July 17 which is 

a Thursday. Let's go with introductions first for those on the line, 

would you please introduce yourselves? And indicate what 

organization if any you are representing.

>> Chris Hart, public member liaison for (inaudible).

>> Uwe Rutenberg, ICAP.

>> Marilyn Golden, Disability Rights Education & Defense Fund.

>> Dennis Cannon, National Disability Rights Network. 

>> MELISSA: Melissa Shurland, FRA.

>> Ken Shiotani, disability rights next work.

>> Billy Altom, Rural independent living.

>> Okay. I believe that is everybody currently on the line. In the 

room with me is Jim Pecht Melissa Anderson and our CART reporter. I

will turn it over to the chair of the subcommittee Dennis Cannon.

>> Dennis: Thank you very much. I hope everybody has the 

agenda in front of them it's pretty small this time. We did -- we talked 

about the (inaudible) and the dining cars so forth last time. Now, we 

are going to tackle the issues of what to do with sleeping 

compartments. And toilet and bathing rooms and continue on where 

we started last time. Let's see, I think that we have -- yes, we do down

at the bottom we have some drawings that are from via rail which is 

Canadian sleeping compartment, which were given to us by Uwe. I

think we have descriptions of them.

>> Yep.
>> Dennis: Let's see, one of the issues right now is we have two 

basic kinds of sleeping cars available -- actually, there is three because I 

don't think the single one is around anymore. I remember riding in a 

sleeper that was basically a one-person room, you sort of had to 

squeeze a lot of parallel parking to get your chair in there and you were 

facing the seat that converted to sort of a bed and the toilet was behind 

you. So, if you wanted to use the toilet you have to open the door, go 

out in the hall, turn around and face the other direction and so forth. 

The other compartment is one in which the toy -- the toy let room is a 

separate room. You enter in straight from the vestibule the aisle goes 

off to the right and makes a very sharp turn and goes along the outside 

of the car to get to the other compartment. It's about 22 inches I 

think is the width of that aisle. You can go straight in the door. The 

door is wide enough. There is a restroom which is not a very well 

designed restroom because you have basically do a standing transfer 

like the old accessible quote unquote room that's in the current cars. 

One of the problems with the room was that if you -- it had two beds a 

lower or upper berth if you pulled it out, the catch to make a bed you 

could no longer turn around inside the room. So, you were stuck. 

Even forward facing or side facing you went over to the bed and that 

was the extent of what you had done. Now the compartment that's 

being shown in here I will let Uwe describe it I am confused I see the 

toilet and I see the compartment and it's not clear to me -- I am 

assuming that that space on the right is kind of open and has a 
trapezoid is supposed to be a restroom but I am not sure how the two 

relate to each other. Looks like you enter the room through the 

restroom is that correct?

>> That is correct. Can you hear me?

>> Yes.

>> Okay. Yeah, you enter the whole compartment through the 

rest room, when you see the drawing in front of you and the wheelchair 

if you take the back of the wheelchair this is the main entrance the door 

is very -- two inches wide. If you look at the front end of the 

wheelchair there is another sliding door. And this sliding door leads 

you, if you look at the figure 2, to the sleeper compartment. What you 

see on figure 2 on the right-hand side is kind of unfortunately I didn't 

have a drawing that shows all that at the same time. But you are 

going from the restroom to the sliding door into that sleeping 

compartment. I don't know if that is clear.

>> Okay.

>> Dennis: I was a little confused some of the mechanism it looks 

like in the bigger two looks like that's where the door would be looks 

like the mechanism -- I am not sure what all that is.

>> Yeah, unfortunately, figure 2 the right side is really not related 

to the left side. These are some drawings in terms of mechanical 

things. That's really not a top view of what is happening in the 

restroom. You have to combine the two in one view. As I said, you 

take the dividing door there, which is in front of figure 1. The 
wheelchair goes through the sliding door, and then enters into the 

second compartment, which is the sleeper compartment. And you see 

the wheelchair there with a turning radius and the 60-inch circle there 

and then on the lift side of it in figure 2, there would be the bed. 

What you see here is the couch it's an L shape that doesn't exist 

anymore. That was the original thought. We converted this into just 

one bed and one couch along the left wall. So, during the day it's a 

couch where people can sit on. And at night they take the cushions off 

and the bed kind of falls down over a frame which then brings the bed 

to a height of about 18 inches so this is about the same height as the 

seat of the wheelchair. I know these drawings are a bit confusing. I

didn't have anything better than this. I hope that more or less you can 

see what is happening here.

>> Okay. The couch looks like -- this is Dennis Cannon. The 

couch looks like, I am not sure how wide it is, but I am assuming it 

makes -- it's made into a bed it's wider than that; is that correct.

>> That is correct. I think the bed -- I don't have the exact figure 

here I think it's about 42 inches wide.

>> Dennis: Okay.

>> It's the full length of the wall.

>> Dennis: Okay. Comments?

>> This is Ken Shiotani. Can I (inaudible) the outer wall of the rail 

car so I know how you are getting in to the restroom is that the center 

corridor or is it the end of the car?
>> Okay. If you go back to figure 1.

>> Uh-huh.

>> If you go back to the far right side where the entrance door is, 

the entrance door connects directly to the vestibule. The vestibule is 

about, I think 46 inches wide. On each side of the vestibule there is a 

cassette lift that brings the person in the wheelchair from the platform 

into the vestibule from the vestibule they go and touch a switch and 

then the power door slides open and they go into the wash room. 

Now, from -- how do I explain this. Let's sate top of the drawing wall is 

part of the corridor from there on you have to imagine there is about a 

17 inch wide core door along the wall of the rail car. The lower side of 

the drawing is the out -- the other outer side wall of the car. So 

between what you see here in the drawing, and the outer side of the 

top wall is about, I think about 16 or 17 inches it's a corridor where 

people walk along the length of the car.

>> Ken: That's clearly a narrow corridor for people who are 

ambulatory.

>> That's correct. That's correct. You cannot pass there with a 

wheelchair.

>> Ken: Okay.

>> Dennis: That's very similar to the way in which the current 

room is located in the single level Amtrak car right now, which is from 

the vestibule you go straight in, you go into the compartment and to 

make -- to get for other people to get to the other compartment which 
is in the rest of the car they have to make a right angle turn a very sharp 

one and go down a narrow corridor going along the outside of the car. 

And that's how you get back to the back.

>> Exactly. Yes. That's the same.

>> Ken: Or other nonaccessible compartments.

>> Right.

>> Ken: I got it I understand.

>> The end of the car is the accessible sleeping compartment the 

next sleeping compartment is just a regular one they are connected wall 

to wall.

>> Ken: Got it.

>> Just for regular passengers.

>> Dennis: In the double in the bi-level sleeping cars currently the 

accessible compartment take up the entire width of the car because it's 

the end. And the passage through the other cars is at the upper level I 

am assuming this is for a single level?

>> That is correct this is rue berg it's a single level car we don't have 

bi-level inter-city cars.

>> This is Marilyn, you are on the drawing or --

>> Figure one and figure two.

>> Okay.

>> Trying to find out where the corridor is here.

>> Ken: This is Ken I was having trouble figuring out which way 

the car was oriented now I got it. I understand now.
>> How -- can I? Sorry. How does -- does the person using a 

wheelchair can turn in that corridor and make a 90-degree turn and 

enter the sleeping compartment. Then the bathroom amenities are 

immediately to his or her left. And but -- have -- there is no wall 

between the wheelchair user and the till let and lav right? They need 

to rotate a bit that's a fold down grab bar that can get out of the way?

>> That's correct right. What you see in the shower stall there is a 

seat there on the right-hand side is a kind of a folding support bar.

>> Oh, I see that's a shower stall. Yeah okay.

>> Okay? So, when the person goes from the toilet shower 

compartment into the sleeping compartment, as you see in figure 1 if 

you take the front of the wheelchair, the person is -- the person is facing 

the sliding door. They touch a button and the -- the door slides open 

to a pocket. And then they proceed to the sleeping compartment. 

And it works the other way around as well. It works the same way 

also for the main entrance door. The main entrance door also has an 

override for the crew in case there is an emergency, they -- then they 

have a key where they can open the main entrance door to the sleeper 

compartment, and get in there in case it's required. Nobody else 

can -- can have access to that.

>> Dennis Cannon: The important things that we have to do this 

is different from the current -- as I said the current Amtrak single-level 

cars sleeping compartment the toy let -- toilet compartment imagine 

this design but that's a wall along the side of the toilet. You have to 
enter from the end and it's basically a compartment like the old 

accessible toilet room where you have to essentially stand and transfer 

a forward transfer to get on to the toilet in the current Amtrak design. 

The shower quote unquote is simply you sit on the toilet seat with the 

lid down in the current Amtrak design. And it has a grating floor like 

this one.

>> Right.

>> Dennis Cannon: But it's very difficult for lots of people to make 

the forward transfer if they can't do a standing transfer. At least in 

this case you can make a side transfer to the toilet.

>> That's correct yeah. That was the idea.

>> And then the shower seat as I recall folds up is that --

>> That is correct it folds up.

>> and the bar in the center folds up. So there is a fair amount of 

space that makes it turn around if you need to get proper position 

diagonal or side whatever to --

>> Exactly.

>> -- the toilet itself.

>> We actually specified, also, a shower chair in case somebody 

wants to transfer from the wheelchair with the mobility aid into the 

chair that they don't want to use the seat so they can use a shower 

chair that is kind of waterproof and roll into the area which is the 

shower -- you know, location.

>> Dennis: All right. So the key issues that we are looking for 
are: Maneuvering room in the toilet room and the ability to make a 

side transfer to the toilet. And maneuvering room within the 

compartment to make sure when the bed is down unlike it is now that 

one person could actually make a turning circle. Now, the question -- I 

guess we don't have Ed on the line. The question is: What that 

turning circle needs to be. We know it's at least 60 inches that's 

current.

>> That's what we call -- Rutenberg this figure 2, it's 60 inches.

>> Go ahead.

>> This is Marilyn. So, figure 2 is oriented differently than figure 1 

it shows the bed -- the upper drawing shows the couch position and the 

figure 2 shows the bed position at a 90-degree angle from the first 

diagram?

>> No -- no you actually -- you join the two. If you take the 

number 2 and you continue number 1 on the left side it's a continuation 

of number 1 to the left side. From the part where you see the 

wheelchair.

>> Take figure number 1 and make it a little smaller, and move it 

straight down and a little bit to the right and put it into that area where 

there is now a blank area with the trapezoidal --

>> Exactly. Exactly Dennis. I should have done that.

 (LAUGHTER).

>> Sorry about that. Yeah, you are right. It's that idea.

>> Got that?
>> Guys this is Chris. Paul, is there a way that you could E-mail 

everything out so that we can really zoom in on it? Because it's very 

(inaudible) and (inaudible).

>> I can't -- I don't know if I could do this right away.

>> Chris: It was more to Paul.

>> Maybe later onion in a day or two I can send you the revised 

drawing combining the two in the top view that's really what you want 

to see, yeah. I can do that.

>> Chris: Just for -- (inaudible) it was a very low resolution.

>> Yeah sure Chris I think that's a good idea.

>> Chris: And we need to put it on the Access Board site.

>> Sure.

>> This is Marilyn again. Are we saying looking at this as a sort of 

a model? As a minimum? As -- I don't know. What's the context in 

which we are looking at this design?

>> This design -- these were the kind of first drawings for producing 

the sleeper. And the only difference that -- because we built the 

sleeper right now as the first kind of model if you want to call it that. 

It's more than a prototype. It's actually the first finished product in a 

rail car which we are planning to test with several people in different 

mobility devices. So, what you see here are some of the drawings as I 

said before in number 2 the only change that was made was the 

arrangement of the sofa and L shape and that turned into a one -- you 

know, single bed along the left wall. When you look at the -- let me 
just see if you scroll down I have a couple of pictures there. Trying to 

see something that shows more -- if you look at figure 8, if you scroll 

down on the screen, if you look at figure 8, there is a picture it shows 

the wheelchair in front of the bed.

>> That's the bed opened up.

>> Exactly. That's the bed opened up. And converts during the 

day or whenever the person wants into a sofa. And then figure 9 you 

can actually -- I tried to compare the seat height with the bed height 

because we found this was one of the most important things when you 

are trying to transfer from mobility aid to the bed that you have to have 

the same height.

>> Well, if you could teach the hotels a thing or two for sure.

 (LAUGHTER).

>> And what you see in figure 10 and figure 11 is a table that is 

attached under neither -- underneath the frame of the sofa and it has 

different positions that you can find of swivel it around. You can also 

change the height. And it can be used from the seated position at the 

sofa or from the wheelchair position in front of the table or on the side. 

So, that's, you know, you could have two persons conversing across the 

table or beside the table or in a perpendicular way any position that 

they want.

>> Chris: This is Chris. Is this for two people or is there a bed up 

above as well.

>> It has an upper bunk as well. And there is a small, what you 
call, stairs or ladder that brings it up to the upper bed.

>> Chris: Okay.

>> It has -- Marilyn. It has a window apparently I see in figure 11.

>> It has a very large window. If you look at figure 8 you will see it 

a little bit. It's an oversized window so the whole sleeping 

compartment has a window the length of the compartment.

>> Great.

>> So when somebody sits at the sofa or works at the table they 

have daylight and they have a screen on the window a shade, so the 

shade comes down you can either take a completely shaded or just 

partially shaded whatever the person prefers.

>> Chris: Okay. When you look at this module is this -- with the 

room and pardon me bathroom together? How long is this module?

>> the whole length of both compartments?

>> Yeah.

>> I would not feel --

>> Dennis: I think there is some measurements which I cannot 

read.

>> Yes, I am looking at the there is 58 inches plus 34 or 56, that's 

kind of 90-plus. We don't know.

>> Chris: Yeah. I mean we -- when we get the high resolution 

version --

>> When you combine the two drawings and I sent by E-mail I tried 

to give you that.
>> Chris: Yeah, because ultimately, you know, what I know -- part 

of what I know Blair would ask is how -- how much larger is this 

compared to what we have got now.

>> Under the regular -- regular sleeper?

>> Chris: No to compare this layout to current (inaudible) layout 

for Amtrak. You know, we know this thing is, I don't know, 5 meters 

by 1 and a half meters and the end cap one is 4 meters by 1 and a half, 

at least we can begin to compare apples to apples.

>> Are you saying that Amtrak is 4 meters?

>> Chris: No, I don't know what it is. But I know that Blair is 

going to want to compare --

>> I will ask Blair because I don't have that dimension at my hand 

either. But, yeah, I will give you that information as well.

>> What we need -- Blair will be able to tell us what -- I mean 

clearly it's going to take up more room than the current. We know 

that the current one is too small. You cannot turn around in the 

compartment with the bed down. So, it's very important that we -- I 

think the principles that we are looking for are we want a restroom that 

allows for a turning circle. And that gets you a side approach to -- and 

we want a sleeping compartment in which the turning circle exists even 

when the bed is down.

>> Correct.

>> Given those two parameters that is basically what we are 

looking for. I see this drawing as an example I am sure people could 
play with a variety of different kinds of configurations and come up with 

different ideas but here we have an example of how you could actually 

make those two things happen. And whether this is the ideal 

configuration or whether somebody else would come up with another 

one I am not concerned about, we will let the car manufacturers deal 

with that. Our goal is to make sure that we have the concept down 

which is the maneuverability within the compartment. We will let the 

designers worry about how they will make that happen.

>> This is really what it's meant for it's only an example and I 

mentioned before. As you clearly indicate, Dennis, there are probably 

many other configurations depending on the layout of other cars that 

are, you know, equally accessible if you consider the parameters that 

you just mentioned there. I would maybe add to what you just said 

the bed height. We found that in many cases, they provide what they 

call accessible sleeper, and the bed height varies by 10 to 12 inches 

mostly higher than the wheelchair seat height. That for most people 

in the wheelchair makes a very difficult to transfer to the bed.

>> Dennis: That I would say is an important issue. Another 

important issue carrying over from the earlier discussions has to do with 

the table which is as we used in the building facilities, the top of the 

table is a maximum of 34, and the under side has a minimum clearance 

of 29. Maybe Ed wants to adjust the numbers somewhat but that 

gives you a limited thickness of the table as it were. One of the things 

that is problematic with the current Amtrak design is that the folding 
table is solo if you are sitting in the wheelchair you can't possibly get 

your fees underneath it to use it actually as a table. And so you are 

sitting -- fur sitting in the wheelchair as opposed to sitting on the couch, 

you are sort of the trying to eat or do anything you are kind of leaning 

over, you know, and trying to eat in a moving car is bad enough.

 (LAUGHTER).

>> Right.

>> Dennis: Forget about peeing.

>> Chris: That's what --

>> (inaudible).

>> Chris: I think you guys have already spoken about the table 

size. And I think Blair also said the table size it currently exists simply 

doesn't work as a table. It's a very (inaudible). One thing that you 

have to understand is (inaudible) for crashworthiness. Is that much 

stiffer than U.S. standards?

>> Yes, think -- yes I think that's a big issue. We don't have the 

same regulations as Canada I know in the U.S. you have to deal with the 

crashworthiness at the table yes I didn't realize that.

>> Dennis: This is Dennis, the table -- the picture of the table 

looks like maybe would be problematic from FRA standpoint. Do we 

have FRA person here Melissa is here.

>> Yes, I am on the line.

>> Dennis: You see the picture on the table in figure 10 and 11?

>> Yes, I am looking at that and we just have a requirement that 
the table have to take the 8G loading and four Gs laterally and 

vertically. So that is the requirement we would have. Even though 

this seems to be a movable table there are ways that you can design it 

to be crashworthy.

>> Okay.

>> Dennis: I think that's true but this particular design probably as 

it stands wouldn't.

>> Melissa: Probably it would not.

>> Dennis: Okay.

>> This is frank isn't there is standard with injury criteria maybe 

that's what you are talking about if you want to meet the APTA 

standard you have to have crush elements so it meets the criteria for 

injuries.

>> Melissa: If the committee likes I can get that standard out 

them to the Access Board folks for dissemination.

>> Frank: Are you familiar with that Dennis?

>> Dennis: Somewhat. I am not sure we as a committee and 

writing recommendations would necessarily have to know that. That's 

the designers that have to figure out how to do that standard.

>> Frank: The only thing that applies if you have 6 inches 

allocated for the height of the table there if that is enough to allow to 

you put some crash elements in there. And I don't think that there is 

not but it's the attachment that's going to be the problem.

>> Yes, that's what looks to me like -- the other principle issue is the 
one of course we wanted to make sure that the door is latchable and 

that it can in fact be opened by trained personnel in an emergency. 

The other critical thing is figure 12 we have to have controls for 

everything within a reachable limit. That means that the upper or 

lower lights and all of that. You could have dual controls so you can 

have controls for the upper lights at the upper bunk which is fine as 

long as there are also controls duplicate controls in an accessible 

position.

>> What we also did is we incorporated all of the speakers for 

the -- because there is a television set if you are sitting on the sofa and 

you look straight out there is a television built into the wall. And the 

speakers are built in to the sofa headrest so that you can get a better 

sound quality out of it, and the right direction. This is not a major 

problem but just con -- just convenience.

>> Chris: Is there that (inaudible).

>> Sorry what?

>> Chris: Is there back massage, as well?

 (LAUGHTER).

>> I think this is an extra package that you have to pay for.

 (LAUGHTER).

>> Right. And the hot tub goes into the compartment next to it.

 (LAUGHTER).

>> Impressive levels of amenities if you think the control situation 

meets with what Dennis was saying?
>> The control as you see here in figure 12 are right beside the 

beds. I am not very happy with the design as they are. It's kind of a 

commercial product I think that they found. I found the you know the 

buttons and the description not quite good. They are kind of -- it's not 

a great solution. As you see here for instance on the top they put the 

rail labels, on each side so that people can read the Braille that they can 

find it. But the -- the design of the buttons I think needs much better 

detailing than what it is now. At least what they found so far is that all 

of the controls are within easy reach from the bed or from the sofa.

>> That's good. Yeah, you have to add high contrast and some of 

the other stuff.

>> Exactly.

>> As you know in commercial products especially in low quantity 

numbers, you cannot always go to the best design. So you have to 

make compromise.

>> Dennis: This is Dennis we are going to assume that there is the 

communication subcommittee which is going to deal with all of the little 

ins and outs of controls and operating mechanisms and that will be 

incorporated in whatever controls are operating.

>> That will be perfect. Yes, exactly. Any suggestions from what 

they can bring up that would be very welcome. Because, as I 

mentioned before, this was kind of a first unit that was built. And you 

know I am trying to plan but different person using different mobility 

aids I think out of this testing will probably come quite a number of 
things that can still be improved within the design that we have right 

now.

>> This is (inaudible) --

>> Go ahead.

>> Is this like a module the way the American view liner Amtrak 

view liner cars or is this just sort of built into a particular sleeping car?

>> This is built into a when they call a dome car it's one end of a 

particular car it will always be at the same position in the same car. 

It's not a module that can be transferred easily into another car.

>> Pardon?

>> It's not a module.

>> No.

>> Ken: Okay.

>> at least until now. I haven't heard any plans otherwise.

>> Dennis: The issue that we are looking for is mainly that -- that 

we have concepts that we need to adhere to, and as I see it the issue of 

this particular drawing is that it is possible to actually meet those 

requirements. And here is an example. If you are a designer and you 

want to use that as your model, that's fine. If you want to work to try 

to make a better model as long as it incorporates all of the things that 

we are concerned about that's fine too. In terms of the guidelines we 

want to set the minimum criteria for what we have to have inside that 

compartment. And let people work in the ways that they can get --

>> Yes, there are other things that I haven't mentioned here. 
When you are in the shower stall, all of the controls, the soap dispenser 

and the controls for the water, they are all -- we all placed them within 

easy reach when you are sitting down on the seat there. Or if you 

have a shower chair you don't have to reach up or down it's within easy 

reach from the seated position.

>> Dennis: This is Dennis is there a curtain or something between 

the first basin and the shower area.

>> Yes, the curtain goes if you look from the left-hand side turns 

around and just over where the support arm is on the right-hand side.

>> Okay.

>> There is a fold down arm beside the shower seat. It's just on 

the right of it before the toilet, so, that you know when somebody takes 

a shower, it's not you know wetting the area where the toilet is located.

>> Okay. And the floor is a grating; is that correct?

>> Right. And I am not 100% happy with what it is right now. 

It's kind of a wooden floor that has pretty big opening like a square inch 

of an opening and I am looking for another way of finding another 

material that does the same thing. Because when you are turning 

around as you know, when you are front wheels of the wheelchair go 

from a flat surface to the grated surface, that's the not the best way of 

doing things. But at the moment it's the only material that they 

found. So, we are looking for something that has the same kind of 

qualities but is better for the -- you know the wheels the front wheels of 

the wheelchair to negotiate the surface.
>> This is Jim. You might want to look into pool deck matting.

>> That's what it's called pool deck matting.

>> There are products for pool decks they are mats and they are 

little grating.

>> That would be great. Do you have any info on that.

>> Just Google it is the easy way to find it.

>> Pool mat, yeah.

>> Thank you.

>> Jim: What you got looks like duck boards here.

>> They are wooden boards out of cedar so that they don't, you 

know, rot. But we know this is not a very good solution.

>> Jim: It's really hard to tell from the picture but is there some 

sort of a -- looks like a curb or something that is you can roll over?

>> Well, there is a threshold as you can see between the shower 

and toilet compartment where the wheelchair is located at the 

moment. And it's about a half inch lift but it's a soft lip to prevent the 

water from running into this area.

>> Jim: It depresses when the chair rolls over it?

>> Correct.

>> Dennis: Okay. We have other things we need to deal with in 

this issue?

>> Jim: Dennis if I could jump in a minute and talk about 

drawings? As far as you guys sending us drawings to look at or to 

disburse, obviously send them to us we will get it out to people and 
make sure they are accessible. The kind of drawings that I can sort of 

deal with is I can -- we can sort of do PDFs they are hard to deal with 

you have to convert them cut and paste you lose resolution badly on 

those. I can do things auto CAD anything that you can put into photo 

shop. Probably Adobe illustrator any of those formats I can deal with 

as far as resolution. Auto CAD is easier I can dimension those. If you 

could get those to us we will make sure that they have the ALT tags and 

all of that good stuff before we send them out.

>> PAUL BEATTY: This is Paul I am going to jump on the latest 

theme if you send us photos and materials sends us who owns it, if you 

own it fine tell us that, second permissions of use if it's free to anybody 

you own it it's free no restrictions you need to tell us that. If you 

are -- if you are borrowing from someone else they give you permission. 

If you look at example little statements were added concerning the 

ownership and the use. So, that's very critical now. Just don't send 

us something without thinking that through otherwise we spend a good 

amount of time going back and forth nailing down a simple statement. 

Thank you.

>> Dennis: Toilet and bathing rooms we have an example of a 

toilet room now a bathing room in a standard nonsleeper car inter-city 

car we are not going to have a shower. We assume you take your 

shower before you get on the commuter train in the morning we hope. 

But we are looking for a restroom design which has, again, the ability to 

get a side transfer to the toilet, and a turning circle within the toilet 
room itself. And then all of the things and grab bars and whatever. 

And we don't have at least here we don't have a picture of or a drawing 

of the Acela restroom which I happen to like. I have seen some others 

ones we may have sent pictures of other designs. It's hard to tell 

exactly what we are like without dimensions on them. He said 

photographs. So, what do we need to say about the toilet rooms on a 

nonsleeper car? Other than what I said about the turning circle and 

controls and what not. Anybody?

>> Dennis this is Uwe. You mentioned the Acela wash room is 

there a space for transfer if somebody needs an assisted transfer?

>> Dennis: Actually I think there is enough room for somebody to 

get in there.

>> Uwe: Okay.

>> Dennis: I know some work was done several years ago by 

Paralyzed Veterans of America PVA on a single aisle aircraft or double 

aisle aircraft toilet which indicated space for an assistant to help you in 

the transfer and independent transfer. I think the drawings and 

whatever are available with D. O. T. I don't happen to have them handy. 

They went through issues with how much room you needed for a 

secondary. Person. The Acela is pretty big I suspect I think there is 

probably enough room I haven't tested it out. I know that I can get 

into it with my power chair and turn around and get to all of the 

amenities. The thing that I don't like is the fact that the door latches 

in the corner and you have to really -- your footrests are in the way 
when you are try to go get close to that. That's one of the things that I 

said before about changing the controls and operating mechanisms so 

any operating mechanisms are a minimum of 12 inches from the inside 

corner. I think that the door ought to be powered but that's me. 

And the Acela works. And there are some that I have seen 

photographs of that probably work as well. But it's hard to tell a little 

bit without some dimensions.

>> Yeah, this is Uwe. I saw many so of the wash rooms the 

European trains and the icy train you call them, I think, and they have a 

full circle. 60-inch circle inside. And some of them, depending 

where they are built in the UK Spain or Germany, at least they have one 

side clear of the toilet where you can transfer. And some in some 

cases you can transfer parallel to the toilet or perpendicular depends on 

the design but at least there is always one position where you have 

somebody who can transfer you from the front and we found we did 

some research in this area and we found that it takes about, with a 

person in front of the wheelchair lifting the person in the wheelchair 

over to the toilet. It requires about 32 inches of width and I think 

about 60 inches in length if you take the end of the wheelchair to where 

the transfer person is standing. That's just kind of a rough measure.

>> Dennis: Right. The Acela allows you to get to a full side 

transfer which is the most common transfer design at least in this 

country. As you pull your chair up beside the toilet, and make a side 

transfer the only down side is you have to pick a side right? Most 
toilet rooms some people want that -- want to have a side transfer from 

both sides so that they can use which ever is their good side 

unfortunately that's not likely to happen.

>> No.

>> Dennis: But if you pull the chair up besides the toilet there is 

plenty of room in front of it or an attendant to help you get across side 

ways from the side transfer. There is room to turn around inside the 

room and part of that overlapping room is also room beside the toilet, 

and the lav on the other side, then, there is a bar in the Acela there is a 

grab bar that wasn't around the front of the lav that curves. And that 

bar the grab bar is also beings tends all the way back to the side of the 

toilet. So that provides you with a good side device that you can use 

to pull yourself across. And I believe there is a grab bar behind the 

toilet too. They don't have a movable folding whatever.

>> Support.

>> Dennis: Support from the side. That's been sort of a sticking 

point here in the U.S. for a long time about the problem with those 

things in terms of your -- one's ability to put them into place and keep 

them there and have them locked into place and still be able to -- the 

ones I have seen when I was in Amsterdam was pretty hard to lift up or 

down. If I hadn't been able to stand and lift them and reach them I 

don't think I could have used them.

>> Yeah, right. There are some designs that require quite a lot of 

strength to pull them up. There are designs they are using in senior 
homes and health facilities that are better designed and they have a 

kind of assisted -- I don't know whether it's a spring loaded stuff in there 

or something like that that allows the arm to easily go up and down.

>> Dennis: What else do we need to say about this folks?

>> Dennis, I'm sorry this is --

>> Chris: Go ahead.

>> Go ahead Chris.

>> Chris: Go ahead.

>> Frank: This is Frank I was trying to catch up with you I came to 

the conversation a little bit late. I know we are going through this but 

are you trying to define the new footprint for the toilet that's going to 

be designed? Or are you just scoping right now?

>> Dennis: We are trying to develop what the specific technical 

idea -- you know the limitations, minimum requirements and so forth in 

a design, and, again, the idea is that you have the turning circle inside 

the room and the ability to make a side transfer. In other words, you 

get your wheelchair up to the side of the toilet on one side. And that 

the controls be available, the sink and controls for the water and 

the -- limitations in terms of height and reach range and grab bars at 

least on one side. The concept is maybe if we can get reliable fold 

down grab bar for the other side. So, right now it's the issue of trying 

to make sure that we get the parameters or the minimums that we 

need to get -- to get the designers to then figure out how to put all of 

these pieces together. I am suggesting that the Acela has done a fairly 
good job of that in my opinion. And there are problem other designs 

and configurations too.

>> Ken: This is Ken, I sent out to folks, I think last time pictures,

unfortunately, without any measurements because I don't travel with a 

tape measure. But I think that the Talgo cars in the Amtrak northwest 

allow a side transfer. They are pretty roomy. And I think that they 

had a power door but I won't swear that is a power door. It slid. And 

I think it was powered. But, again, I was observing taking snapshots 

that I wasn't like surveying so I didn't take any notes. But I do have 

photos and I am happy to share them if anybody wants to just see how 

they are configured. But I don't have measurements.

>> Frank: This is Frank again I follow what you are saying Dennis. 

You have a turning circle you need to define. The question is how do 

you define of the rest of the space that you need for maneuvering is 

there anything from Ed's research that could be helpful in this area.

>> This is Marilyn. There are all kinds of things. There is what 

you -- there are all kinds of things. There are what you need to make a 

turn and reach ranges. We need Ed. Couldn't one -- I think from the 

disabilities community perspective I mean I would go through the 

stand -- I would go through the ADAAG and look at all of the general 

elements that the different sections would require you have in a 

bathroom, and you know, hopefully they are combinable and 

overlappable and things like that. And Ed's research will provide new 

dimensions for some of them. Some of them the same. As now. 
But, you no -- but you know we can brainstorm them all. I think 

somebody would want to look through and make sure we have 

everything.

>> Frank: Is there some reason you wouldn't want to use the 

human scale information? Dennis, can you think of a reason why you 

wouldn't want to use that?

>> Dennis: I am not sure that the human scale things are 

upgraded. For the most part they haven't taken into account disability 

issues. And one of the things that Ed is trying to do Ed Steinfeld is 

trying to do in his research is essentially augment those kinds of things 

to say -- reframe them so forthwith people with limb mountained arm 

strength and one of the issues is reaching forward you have your feet 

sticking out in front of you there is differences of reach how high you 

can reach controls and what not. Those have been incorporated in the 

ADA, ABA accessibility guidelines and not so much in the vehicle 

guidelines before because we didn't have a lot of these specifications 

for controls and operating mechanisms. The -- I don't know whether 

Access Board has decided to do something different. But the way in 

which the -- doing the NPRM for thees we -- for the buses we left them 

open. But the control mechanisms would be a standard set. The 

way the guideline works is it will say you shall have at least one 

restroom and controls and operating mechanism shall comply with, and 

then you cite the section it complies with. And all of those things in 

that section that controls and operates takes into account all of the 
issues. Those are the things that we hope will be educated by Ed's 

new research. Because it takes into consideration some things which 

were not done in the original research way back when. As I say the 

human scale 1, 2, 3 for the most part doesn't take into account disability 

issues. That's what Ed's does.

>> Well, we have sort of talked about technical professions what 

about scoping if we are done with the technical issues. That's maybe 

the tricky part. Because you are not going to have a sleeping car with 

10 accessible rooms in it. You are not going to have four restrooms in 

a car that are accessible and so forth. So the scoping issues is maybe 

in some cases the trickier issue. Typically there is in an Amtrak car two 

restrooms. You will want two per car for whatever, you know 

commuter room and so forth. My experience in traveling on a regular 

Amtrak car which has the old nonaccessible but accessible restroom is 

that when you are traveling long distances and there are people with 

children they always use the accessible restroom. Because they can 

take kids into them instead of leaving them in the seat or they can 

change diapers or whatever in the bathroom. We find the accessible 

room is actually quite popular. But Amtrak wants to have an 

additional restroom in the Acela train there are two, one accessible 

restroom and right on the back of it is essentially a phone booth that 

accommodates people who aren't going to need the accessible 

restroom. So, I am not concerned about that issue I am concerned 

that we have at least one, the way I scoping works in the current vehicle 
regulations it says there shall be at least one door on each car on each 

side from which passengers board that is accessible that is the 

requirements. That there is an accessible restroom adjacent to or as 

close as practical to that door or doors. And that there is an accessible 

pathway from that restroom and from that door into the area where 

the wheelchair sit and there are two spaces for wheelchairs and two 

transfer seats and places to store wheelchairs. And that's the way it's 

currently written. There is no requirement to be able to traverse the 

aisle of the train car you get all the way down to the other end those 

two doors on the other end of the car aren't required currently to be 

accessible. And the primary reason for that is the inner-city rail car is 

that unlike a Metro car or light rail where you run it for a very short 

period of time inner-city car you may want to stay you will be traveling 

for long distances you want the seats to be more comfortable they are 

more like aircraft seat than rap bid rail seat which means they are 

bigger. The aisle isn't necessarily narrower if you require accessible 

route to traverse the entire length of the car so you can get to the other 

end. Then you loose some of that you probably lose significant 

seating. Probably have instead of 2 by 2 you have 2 by 1 perhaps. 

So, those are the issues that need to be addressed. The other issue is 

how many sleeping compartments have to be accessible within a rail 

car. And the other issue we are dealing with in another part is what 

do you do about Vertical Access in a bi-level car. What are people's 

thoughts about those requirements.
>> I thought the Vertical Access is being handled by other 

subcommittees. So that's already being handled.

>> It's a difficult issue. This is Uwe. This is a difficult issue we

have not found a solution for yet.

>> All right.

>> Uwe: Dennis, you mentioned two wheelchair positions per car 

that is regulation now or is it -- has it been applied? Because the --

>> Dennis: The current statutory requirement says at least one 

but not more than two per car. And the debate for -- for inner-city 

rail -- I mean for Amtrak -- excuse me, rapid rail, light rail the minimum 

is two.

>> Okay.

>> Dennis: The current requirement is at least one no more than 

two that's a statutory one because when the discussions were originally 

being made there was some desire on the part of commuter rail and 

inner-city rail but mostly commuter to make a single car accessible 

within the -- that was viewed by the disability community as a cattle car 

approach that was rejected. The statutory language specifically says 

you can't have more than two. But you can have just one. And so 

the problem that we have identified is, from the disability community, is 

there are frequently two people that want to travel together. And 

currently they may not be able to. A lot of -- there are a lot of cases 

where in the Acela there is one power -- you know one space for 

wheelchair in the car, period. And two people want to travel together, 
they can't sit in the same car. So, the suggestion that I made early on 

and this is not one that has been identified yet was we should make it 

two instead of saying one but no more than two just make it two and 

make it two all away across the board that's an issue for discussion.

>> Uwe: That's very interesting we have the same discussions 

here in Canada. And the consensus more or less is make it two 

positions in the accessible car because as you mentioned very often a 

couple or friends or just two people in wheelchairs are traveling. So, 

it's really becoming something that is -- the same thing is happening in 

buses in urban buses. All of our burr urban because -- urban buses 

have two wheelchair positions why not make it in the train as well.

>> That's my opinion.

>> This is Marilyn. We -- we--you know, so, you know it's so easy 

to have hindsight. The forced dispersion taken out of the cattle car 

problem or 24, 25 or 23 whatever years ago.

We certainly don't want a cattle car but we have had all kinds of 

problems with groups wanting to ride together and Amtrak charging 

them a lot of money and also not having a sense that it has to 

accommodate them in the same car or even in groups bigger than two 

anywhere. Which is perhaps a legitimate literal reading of the ADA. 

But it really seems like we could do better. And have we really -- had 

we been able to have -- you can't have a crystal ball and know what 

problems are going to happen down the road. But there have been 

some discussion of whether our legal folks can explore not having 
to--keep willing in -- keeping in with the spirit of the original goal 

without having -- without having it have the limiting impact 

inadvertently it's having.

>> This is Melissa Anderson. I wanted to redirect you guys back to 

the topic of your committee the circulation and seating committee is a 

different committee. And I know a lot of you are involved in both 

that's perfectly fine but this call is really to talk about rooms and spaces.

>> We have veered from our --

 (LAUGHTER).

>> If you had your whole task on and wanted to move on we would 

combine the calls we are not there yet.

>> There are overlapping issues.

>> Scoping you know to a certain degree affects seating and 

interior circulation. I mean, you know they are tied together a little bit 

but --

>> I agree --

>> Additional seats is really more in the interior, the seating and 

interior circulation subcommittee.

>> Right. This is Dennis. The scoping I was talking about was 

how many restrooms we are going to have per car and how many 

accessible compartments that's our issue. Is it anybody's contention 

that we should have more than one accessible compartment per car 

and more than one accessible restroom per car?

>> When you say accessible compartment you mean sleeper?
>> Yeah.

>> Right. I was talking to you about seating so it's not -- it was off 

topic, so sorry.

>> Chris: This is Chris, I believe way back at least some point you 

were discussing about (inaudible) sleepers and whether (inaudible) 

bathrooms which are typically on the first level I believe. Do we need 

to look at any of those bathrooms as a usability someone who is older 

but not necessarily reserve the quote unquote accessible group might 

benefit from (inaudible) design in the smaller bathrooms. Is my 

memory correct there?

>> Dennis: I am not quite sure what you mean do you mean on 

the sleeper car and the restrooms for the other --

>> Chris: Yes, I forget two or three toilets and you have got two 

showers. And I believe way way back when the committee was as a 

whole issues I believe somebody raised an issue do you want to talk 

about those facilities that are more ambulatory. But obviously there 

are people (inaudible).

>> Dennis: Okay. The current idea is that the accessible room 

has its own toilet room inside it.

>> Chris: That's for sure but I think it was Blair that had -- he said 

people don't want to go upstairs because the bathrooms are on the 

downstairs level, and so (inaudible) the question is: Do we want to 

begin to think about those ambulatory restrooms, do we want to call 

out things like that, things like ambulatory bathrooms?
>> Dennis: It seems to me that grab bars a good idea everywhere.

>> And especially on a moving train.

>> Dennis: In a moving train for anybody it would seem to me 

that grab bars would be desirable to have anywhere even in the 

restroom that's not the quote accessible one.

>> Chris: And we would all agree with that the issue is the 

guideline standards do not require it.

>> Do we have jurisdiction?

>> Dennis: Well we can make any recommendations we want. 

The question is whether they end up with a regulation is somebody 

else's job. But if the committee feels that that is a recommendation 

that it wants to make by all means let's make it.

>> Frank: Dennis this is Frank again to address the scoping issue 

the scoping issues for restrooms it's a separate one for the sleeping 

compartment. Just to deal with restrooms for a second here the way 

it's written I believe now at least in the CFR if a restroom is provided for 

the general public you have to have an accessible one. They can both 

be the same restroom they don't have be two separate ones. So, in 

that regard, I think that's good it stays the way it is. And --

>> The two separate ones the fact that there was a requirement or 

rather a claim early on by appear track when we were negotiating this 

way back, Amtrak said it was adamant it had to have -- there had to be 

two restrooms per car period.

>> That's up to them.
>> Dennis: That was their requirement. One of them have to be 

accessible but not two of them that's fine if you want another -- but the 

debate felt because of the accessible restroom is much bigger it limited 

space for everything else. You took up seating space and so forth. 

That I am not concerned about. You are right the issue is if facilities 

are provided for the general public there has to be accessible restroom 

because you don't have restrooms on rapid rail cars and so forth for the 

general public there is no requirement for accessible restroom on any 

(inaudible) customer normally has the restroom facilities period.

>> Right. That's what I agree with.

>> Dennis: So the question is: Is that stuff? I -- is that 

sufficient? All we say is one restroom where it is provided for the 

general public one at least one has to be accessible that's the current 

scope. Is there any idea that we need to change that?

>> No think so.

>> I don't think so.

>> Dennis: Okay. So, now, sleeping compartments. We have 

one per car currently. It's on the first level (inaudible). You are not 

likely to get 2. So then the question is, is there any -- do people think 

there need to be two? Do people think -- do people think that's 

unreasonable or what. One of the issues is how many people travel. 

And whether there is a need for or demand for more than one. I don't 

know what the answer to that is.

>> Chris: Well, Dennis, this is Chris. One of the things that I 
think Blair and (inaudible) as Amtrak finally becomes accessible, it 

becomes a much more viable transportation option, whereas, right 

now, I don't want to call myself or you crazy, but we want -- we are one 

of that number of folks who do overnight trips and Amtrak has --

>> I don't think we can predict. First of all these will be updated, 

we are updating the standards now we will increase the space 

requirements, which is going to go back to a whole variety of things. I

don't know that we can predict whether ridership is going to increase 

substantially. Remember, also, we are talking about a -- there is more 

one car more than one sleeping compartment. It's true we don't have 

the design for a sleeping compartment for the two wheelchairs. And I 

am not sure that we are likely to ever get that at this point. There is 

an upper bunk so you have an attend dant or family member you can 

get two people in the room. We are not I don't believe ever have 

thought about the issue of what about two people in wheelchairs. In 

the same room. I don't think we have ever gotten to that point I am 

not sure that we are likely to get it -- again, one of the issues has to be 

considered in our, we can make recommendations whatever 

recommendations that we want. In the end, the board will transform 

the recommendations into reg-babble that goes out to public comment 

and out to the Office of Management and Budget and cost analysis 

required by the board. And if OMB decides it's not justified on the 

cost basis it has the authority to tell the board to take it out. So, I 

don't think we likely will ever get more than one accessible sleeping 
compartment in the car.

>> Dennis this is Uwe. Why can't we do something similar to what 

is happening with the (inaudible) position that you recommend at least 

one accessible sleeper compartment in a sleeping car. And because I 

think it's very unlikely that you can have two accessible sleeper 

compartments in the same car. Just technically, I think that's problem 

very, very difficult. But you might have, let's say you have two or 

three sleeper cars you might have each sleeper car one accessible 

compartment how you write it up in the regs I really don't know. 

Could you say you have to have at least in a train consists one accessible 

sleeper car compartment and maximum two?

>> The way it's currently written every --

>> (inaudible).

>> Yeah the way it's written now every new car, again, all of the 

guidelines apply only to new cars. They don't apply to existing. 

Every new car sleeper has to have at least one accessible compartment. 

That's the current regulation.

>> Is it written --

>> There was a different requirement early on about seating that 

had to do with the requirement to have a certain number of seats per 

consist and that was an interim requirement that that has long since 

pasted. Right now every car every new car has to have -- every new 

sleeper car has to have one compartment that's accessible.

>> Okay, thank you.
>> Ken: Dennis, is it written as have to have one or is it written as 

must have at least one? I just don't remember.

>> Dennis: I don't either my recollection it says one but at it could 

be at least it doesn't make a difference in terms of what you actually 

get.

>> Chris: Technically it's going to be difficult to do more than one 

per car. It's -- I won't say a waste of time but folks agree it's difficult to 

try to think about two per car. This is --

>> Dennis: There is nothing inherently wrong with say ago -- with 

saying at least one so you give the opportunity for somebody to figure 

out how to do it that's fine. There is no problem with doing that.

>> Chris: Tell you figure out a way to (inaudible) and everything 

else goes going on the lower level of a superliner cab, then you can 

probably get another -- another room in a superliner lower level. But 

all of that stuff has to fit somewhere.

>> Dennis: Right. And the water storage and the sewage 

containers all of that on the bottom level for obvious reasons.

 (LAUGHTER).

>> Dennis: The restrooms are on the lower level because the 

accessible compartment has accessible restroom it's always on the 

lower level. This is a separate issue. My recollection maybe knows 

the answer to this, dining cars do not have restrooms; is that correct?

>> Chris: That is not correct.

>> It's not. No.
>> It ties to the cafe car --

>> Think seeing that the bi-level dining cars.

>> the bi-level dining cars to at least -- (inaudible). But I believe 

Blair said that they worked on a version for a restroom in the upper 

level for dining.

>> Okay. Let me find it out. But at this point every coach car is 

going to have at least one accessible restroom. Whatever restrooms 

are available for the public. And a lounge car which is bi-level lounge 

car is going to have restroom on the lower level at minimum. And 

then we have to think about whether there is going to be a restroom on 

the upper level of the dining car.

>> Dennis I was reading the CFR accessible restrooms are required 

only when one is provided for other passengers. It's just like the 

regular restrooms if there is a restroom it has to be accessible or 

another accessible has to be provided. So, I don't know if you have to 

get so specific about upper level lower level. I guess in all likelihood it 

will happen on the lower level if that's where the cafe or dining level.

>> Folks, this is Lisa, for purpose of these discussions the bi-level 

dining there is statutory car guide for them they are off the table. 

Even if there is a regular restroom in a bye level dining car the law 

would not require an accessible restroom in the bye level dining car.

>> As currently written.

>> That's in current law.

>> Isn't it written it's not required? It's sort of a difference 
between the seating. The seating is no more than, you know, no less 

than 1 no more than two. But I think the requirements for the dining 

car shall not be required but not prohibited.

>> You are correct that's correct.

>> We are writing regulations --

>> This is (inaudible).

>> You are saying this is Marilyn you are saying there is currently no 

required access to the dining car.

>> Bi-level dining cars no access no requirement for seating, no 

requirement to fold and store or secure.

>> That's all statutory.

>> That's statutory right. As you point out Ken --

>> (inaudible).

>> This is only for bi-level dining cars it's not apply to bi-level 

lounge cars as Ken points out that is only a limitation on what can be 

required. You can always provide it.

>> Jim: Dennis, this is Jim getting back to the sleeping car, the 

language says at least one compartment.

>> That's statutory language.

>> Regulation language in the regulation currently.

>> Okay. Thank you.

>> And the other subcommittee, which is working on circulation is 

trying to develop a kind of a performance standard which would have a 

box essentially that required to be maneuvering through and through 
the -- through and into the area if you work into that you don't 

necessarily have to specify specific numbers for the turning circle, 

whatever, all you have to do is say shall be usable or can be prototype 

or the design configuration, whatever, can or must be able to maneuver 

within that space. So, you essentially don't have to put in some 

numbers but we will see how it works out from the circulation.

So, that sounds like -- like the scoping is one at least one. 

Both -- we are going to use the current toilet room in terms if you 

provide it facilities for the general public at least one shall be accessible 

and use the criteria the technical criteria that we already set out earlier 

today and the same is going to be for the sleeping compartments. Are 

there any other issues that we need to work on?

>> Jim: Dennis are you going to require that the toilet bathing 

room be part of the sleeper compartment? Are you going to allow 

that to be separate?

>> Dennis: That's a good question. We have always assumed 

that they were together because that's the way it works. Let's see.

>> I thought they had to be together.

>> Dennis: That's always -- I am trying to think about -- I don't 

think that's actually specified anywhere. That's always been the case. 

The accessible sleeping compartment has always had an internal toilet 

of some sort, but in terms of the actual regulation --

>> It's in there I am reading it now Dennis. Each accessible 

sleeping compartment shall contain a restroom complying with 123 (A) 
so it's a requirement.

>> Okay.

>> Dennis: We don't want people having to go out into the 

hallway and traverse --

>> And regular sleeper compartments the shower and facilities are 

within the room. You don't have to go out in the corridor as you say.

>> It's currently covered for inter-city it specifically says toe.

>> I won't swear to this but I think the new Amtrak view liners 

sleepers being built are going to have common restrooms and common 

showers. I read that, I think, and I think I am remembering it right.

>> That would be against this rule.

>> No, no, no I mean for the nonaccessible ones.

>> for the nonaccessible.

>> for everything else.

>> My recollection at least of the bi-level sleeper that I spent time 

in going to Philadelphia was it was a common restroom for everybody 

else in that car had to come downstairs to the restroom which 

happened to be right adjacent to my compartment and it didn't have an 

exhaust fan at least it didn't come on immediately which was a 

problem.

>> Oh, gosh.

 (LAUGHTER).

>> Chris: And, again, this is why I was trying to clarify whether 

folks wanted to address a common restroom outside of a quote 
unquote accessible room restroom.

>> Dennis: My recommendation would be we already said grab 

bars are probably a good idea that we should recommend grab bars 

whether it turns out to be a requirement in the regulation from the 

Access Board saying we should say the nonaccessible restroom shall 

have restrooms I would say shall have an exhaust fan.

 (LAUGHTER).

>> Dennis: That comes on automatically.

 (LAUGHTER).

>> Chris: You know, Dennis that might be some FRA requirement 

for it.

 (LAUGHTER).

>> Dennis: Okay. What else do we need to deal with? We 

may actually end early huh? Subcommittee homework Uwe was going 

to get us some drawings or fix some drawings of the via rail system, and 

I think that was basically the only thing that we are looking at is that 

right?

>> I will provide the drawings and the measurements as far as I can 

find them. And compare them with Amtrak. I don't have access to 

the am fracture -- the Amtrak dimensions but I will ask Blair if he can 

probably provide them.

>> Dennis: I had asked before somebody, I can't remember, at 

Amtrak a long time ago, whether the drawings for the Bombardier 

restroom in the Acela were proprietary. I believe I was told that they 
were. But then I was later, I believe, told by somebody else no they 

could make them available to us because Amtrak held them. You 

might ask Blair if you talk to him.

>> Chris: And I believe you guys had also asked for their California 

bathroom layout, or Dallas Ft. Worth commuter rail, this is bigger than 

the Acela.

>> Dennis: Is that the California car you mean?

>> Chris: Yes, the Dallas Ft. Worth and I want to say almost 

haven't got these --

>> We should be able to get Amtrak to have the California cars. I

don't believe we have any contact with Dallas Ft. Worth.

>> Chris: I will make a call. Again, (inaudible) they didn't come 

in. One of the reasons why we formed a committee is, and we put 

folks on (inaudible) on the committee is to help share and help show 

you all and all of us what is out there today.

>> This is Melissa Anderson I am not going to send this out but if 

everybody looks on the Amtrak website under the superliner sleeping 

cars they have very nice virtual tours of the rooms and there are virtual 

tours of the accessible rooms with the restroom and it does have the 

car dimension or the room dimensions which are 6 foot 9 inches and 9 

foot 5 inches.

>> 6 foot 9 by 9 foot 5. It has some really nice pictures of the 

accessible room and the toilet area and other rooms in the car too.

>> That's helpful, thank you.
>> Okay. So that's part of the homework assignment is everybody 

should look at that.

>> Okay, will do.

>> Jim: Dennis, getting back to basic requirements like turning 

circle and getting next to the toilet did you want to talk about stuff with 

regards to maneuvering clearances at doors?

>> Dennis: Ah good questions maneuvering clearances at doors 

ADA requirements refer to nonpower doors. At least, you are right, 

we didn't actually specify this in the Via Rail we are talking about power 

operated doors. And I would like to suggest that that should be a 

requirement and it also should be a requirement in the accessible 

restroom. Anybody have an objection to that? So then the only 

thing that applies is the position of the controls. So that you could 

actually get to them. But the doors are power doors. Anybody?

>> Agreed.

>> Sounds good.

>> Chris: I think, Dennis, given what is available all over the world, 

I would think that from a cost benefit basis, this should not be too 

painful. Since almost every vehicle already does it.

>> Dennis: Typically the door from the compartment into the 

vestibule for eons has been a power door.

>> Jim: Dennis, I realize most of the pictures we are looking at are 

sliders power sliders don't have this issue. But we really haven't 

specified that they have to be sliders as well if they are power operated 
swinging doors I think you want to put in a requirement that you need 

30 by 48 or whatever clear floor space outside of the swing of the door 

depending on which way it opens.

>> That would be automatic wouldn't it?

>> Jim: Not if you don't spell it out.

>> You push the button you don't want the door to come up and hit 

you, you have to have a space that you can get out of the way of the 

door swing. I think it's clear from the con fined areas and what not in 

the rail car that you are not going to have swing doors there is just too 

much -- there is too little space that you can play with. The door in the 

current Amtrak single level sleeper into the toilet room is swing. And 

it's problematic in some respects to get that open and to get it closed 

again because it -- I guess it's a spring closer. I don't remember but --

>> Dennis, did you say there were door operating requirements 

already in the guidelines I didn't see them.

>> There are door operating -- again, I don't know how the board is 

going to deal with this, but in the vehicle requirements for the buses, 

we were originally putting everything all in one regulation. And so, in 

the proposed rule for buses, the new ones, there is a controls and 

operating mechanisms section, so the idea was if you put the rail 

vehicle in that same regulation, you would refer back to that section. 

If the board decided it's going to go into a separate regulation for the 

rail cars then it needs to take those provisions or whatever they 

modified provisions that are currently in the proposed bus rule and also 
put them into the rail vehicle part.

>> Okay. You are saying the proposed rules listed on the website 

is the baseline for what we considered for rail cars.

>> In with some modifications. I don't know what the -- the 

proposed update for buses and vans -- buses and vans has been 

massaged since it's been put out as a proposal. I don't know what the 

final is going to look like. But the concept is you have a section that 

refers to the close and operating mechanisms that talks about pressure, 

height, how you operate controls like the latches on doors and so forth. 

And all of those things need to be included. Now, we may want to 

modify the numbers to some extent depending on what comes out 

from Ed Steinfeld's research. But the basic idea is should be the same.

>> Because I am looking online now I am not seeing that section 

on --

>> Updated guidelines for buses and vans?

>> Jim: You are talking at cross purposes there is no current 

requirement in the current standard for power doors.

>> Right. In the current standard for vehicles we don't have a lot 

of specifications for lots of things that we need to put in.

>> Right.

>> And one other thing one other thing is basically I need to say 

that final rules never ever look exactly like a proposed rule.

>> This is Marilyn: They are generally weaker. They are rarely 

stronger.
>> Chris: No comment.

>> (inaudible).

>> No offense, I don't think the board's ever are.

>> Chris: No comment there. I won't be offended, with that 

said, I always ask to do it because FRA civil rights is on the call today, 

the grantees were reminded by D. O. T. about a particular element not 

covered in the regulations for -- like, controls the cafe in the Acela that 

they need to refer back to ADAAG. And so, (inaudible) no longer call, 

and looking only at (inaudible) and it's not in here. Again, D. O. T. is 

clear that folks need to watch out for that for the ADA standards.

>> Dennis: That has been sort of a general operating rule but 

there is nothing that says they have to do that.

>> Chris: Dennis, there was a very clear (inaudible) posted 

somewhere on the site to --

>> Dennis: D. O. T. issued a bunch of advisory things in the ADA 

but they don't necessarily have the same force. So --

>> Chris: I guess we could have a legal discussion over beer but 

essentially the issue was to address (inaudible) or conveniently 

overlooked by Amtrak. Because the regs are not quote unquote 

saying it.

>> The issues that we need to include controls and operating 

mechanisms and knee and toe clearance and things like that in all of the 

parts of this, if it's included in all one regulation, you got some 

reference sections already and if it's going to be separate regulations 
you need to make sure that those are included. Anybody else? We 

are at 2:52. I think we have come to the end. Anybody else got 

anything that they want to raise?

>> Good meeting.

>> Dennis: Thank you. Is that it? Well, all right.

>> Chris: Thank you all.

>> Dennis: Thank you.

>> Uwe: Thank you very much Dennis it was a good meeting.

>> Dennis: Okay. And we will talk again at the next one.

>> Uwe: You should July 17th?

>> Dennis: Yes I think --

>> PAUL BEATTY: July 17th is the next one.

>> I put it in the agenda.

>> PAUL BEATTY: This is Paul Beatty this concludes the 

conference call. Operator, you can shut this down. (End of meeting)