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THE CHALLENGES FACING THE NEXT 

COMMISSIONER OF SOCIAL SECURITY 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON SOCIAL SECURITY 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

APRIL 26, 2013 

Serial 113–SS4 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Ways and Means 

( 


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COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS 

DAVE CAMP, Michigan, Chairman 

SAM JOHNSON, Texas 

KEVIN BRADY, Texas 

PAUL RYAN, Wisconsin 

DEVIN NUNES, California 

PATRICK J. TIBERI, Ohio 

DAVID G. REICHERT, Washington 

CHARLES W. BOUSTANY, JR., Louisiana 

PETER J. ROSKAM, Illinois 

JIM GERLACH, Pennsylvania 

TOM PRICE, Georgia 

VERN BUCHANAN, Florida 

ADRIAN SMITH, Nebraska 

AARON SCHOCK, Illinois 

LYNN JENKINS, Kansas 

ERIK PAULSEN, Minnesota 

KENNY MARCHANT, Texas 

DIANE BLACK, Tennessee 

TOM REED, New York 

TODD YOUNG, Indiana 

MIKE KELLY, Pennsylvania 

TIM GRIFFIN, Arkansas 

JIM RENACCI, Ohio 

SANDER M. LEVIN, Michigan 

CHARLES B. RANGEL, New York 

JIM MCDERMOTT, Washington 

JOHN LEWIS, Georgia 

RICHARD E. NEAL, Massachusetts 

XAVIER BECERRA, California 

LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas 

MIKE THOMPSON, California 

JOHN B. LARSON, Connecticut 

EARL BLUMENAUER, Oregon 

RON KIND, Wisconsin 

BILL PASCRELL, JR., New Jersey 

JOSEPH CROWLEY, New York 

ALLYSON SCHWARTZ, Pennsylvania 

DANNY DAVIS, Illinois 

LINDA SA ́ NCHEZ, California 

JENNIFER M. SAFAVIAN, Staff Director and General Counsel 

JANICE MAYS, Minority Chief Counsel 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES 

SAM JOHNSON, Texas, Chairman 

PATRICK J. TIBERI, Ohio 

TIM GRIFFIN, Arkansas 

JIM RENACCI, Ohio 

AARON SCHOCK, Illinois 

MIKE KELLY, Pennsylvania 

KEVIN BRADY, Texas 

XAVIER BECERRA, California 

LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas 

MIKE THOMPSON, California 

ALLYSON SCHWARTZ, Pennsylvania 


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C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Advisory of April 26, 2013 announcing the hearing ............................................. 2 

WITNESSES 

The Honorable Patrick P. O’Carroll Jr., Inspector General, Social Security 

Administration, Testimony .................................................................................. 11 

Daniel Bertoni, Director, Education, Workforce, and Income Security, Government Accountability Office, Testimony .............................................................. 21 

PUBLIC SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD 

American Association of University Women ......................................................... 56 

Daniel Solomon ........................................................................................................ 60 

Social Security Works .............................................................................................. 61 


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THE CHALLENGES FACING THE NEXT 

COMMISSIONER OF SOCIAL SECURITY 

FRIDAY, APRIL 26, 2013 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON SOCIAL SECURITY, 

Washington, DC. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 9:30 a.m., in Room 

B–318, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Sam Johnson [chairman of the subcommittee] presiding. 

[The advisory of the hearing follows:] 


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HEARING ADVISORY 

FROM THE COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS 

Chairman Johnson Announces Hearing on 

The Challenges Facing the Next 

Commissioner of Social Security 

B–318 Rayburn House Office Building at 9:30 AM 

Washington, April 19, 2013 

U.S. Congressman Sam Johnson (R–TX), Chairman of the House Committee on 

Ways and Means Subcommittee on Social Security, today announced a hearing on 

the challenges facing the next Commissioner of Social Security. The hearing will 

take place on Friday, April 26, 2013, in B–318 Rayburn House Office Building, beginning at 9:30 a.m. 

In view of the limited time available to hear witnesses, oral testimony at this 

hearing will be from invited witnesses only. However, any individual or organization 

not scheduled for an oral appearance may submit a written statement for consideration by the Subcommittee and for inclusion in the printed record of the hearing. 

BACKGROUND: 

The Social Security Administration (SSA) is responsible for delivering services 

that impact the lives of nearly every American. In fiscal year 2012, the SSA paid 

over 65 million people a total of more than $800 billion in retirement, survivors, disability, and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) benefits. During the same year, the 

SSA processed over 5 million retirement and survivor applications and 3.2 million 

disability applications, posted 245 million earnings items to workers’ records, assisted nearly 45 million visitors at their local offices, and completed more than 56 

million transactions on their National 800 number. In addition to serving the public, 

the SSA completed 443,000 medical continuing disability reviews and 2.6 million 

SSI redeterminations as part of its program integrity work. 

As the nation ages, the SSA will continue to face unprecedented service delivery 

demands even as it moves to automate many of its core functions. With Congress 

and the President agreeing on nearly static annual SSA budgets for the last three 

years, along with tight budgetary caps for future federal agency spending, the SSA 

has reached a crossroad in terms of how it will continue to deliver services to the 

public in a constrained fiscal environment. 

In response, the SSA is already operating under a self-imposed hiring freeze for 

the last 2.5 years and has reduced the hours its offices are open to the public. At 

the same time, the agency has significantly increased online services, where today 

45 percent of retirement applications and 33 percent of disability applications are 

being filed on line. 

In March 2011, the Social Security Advisory Board (SSAB) issued a report, ‘‘A Vision of the Future for the Social Security Administration’’ criticizing the lack of strategic planning by SSA. To meet its mission, the SSAB urged the agency to prepare 

itself to manage its current and future mission-related objectives, including critical 

post-entitlement and program integrity activities, and efficiently use existing financial and other resources to balance its service delivery policies with its stewardship 

responsibilities. 

The SSA will be led by a new Commissioner once the President chooses his nominee and the Senate completes its confirmation process. Former Commissioner Michael J. Astrue’s six-year term expired in January 2013. Carolyn Colvin, who served 

as the Deputy Commissioner, is currently serving as Acting Commissioner until a 

new Commissioner is confirmed. 


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In announcing the hearing, Social Security Subcommittee Chairman Sam Johnson 

(R–TX) said, ‘‘Today, nearly 10,000 Americans sign up for retirement benefits 

every day. The recession coupled with a slow economic recovery has resulted in a wave of new disability claims, increased backlogs and growing 

wait times for a frustrated public. Moreover, the Disability Insurance program remains on the Government Accountability Office’s ‘‘High Risk’’ list. 

With ever increasing demands on Social Security, the time is now for bold 

and decisive leadership by the next Commissioner of Social Security. This 

hearing will lay the groundwork for the challenges facing the new Commissioner and strategies for how best to address them, in order to adequately 

meet the needs of the American people.’’ 

FOCUS OF THE HEARING: 

The hearing will focus on the challenges facing the next Commissioner, including 

those related to service delivery capacity, human capital management, strategic 

planning, information technology, physical infrastructure and the agency’s ability to 

effectively administer Social Security programs. 

DETAILS FOR SUBMISSION OF WRITTEN COMMENTS: 

Please Note: Any person(s) and/or organization(s) wishing to submit for the hearing record must follow the appropriate link on the hearing page of the Committee 

website and complete the informational forms. From the Committee homepage, 

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/, select ‘‘Hearings.’’ Select the hearing for which you 

would like to submit, and click on the link entitled, ‘‘Click here to provide a submission for the record.’’ Once you have followed the online instructions, submit all requested information. ATTACH your submission as a Word or WordPerfect document, in compliance with the formatting requirements listed below, by the close 

of business on Friday, May 10, 2013. Finally, please note that due to the change 

in House mail policy, the U.S. Capitol Police will refuse sealed-package deliveries 

to all House Office Buildings. For questions, or if you encounter technical problems, 

please call (202) 225–1721 or (202) 225–3625. 

FORMATTING REQUIREMENTS: 

The Committee relies on electronic submissions for printing the official hearing 

record. As always, submissions will be included in the record according to the discretion of the Committee. The Committee will not alter the content of your submission, 

but we reserve the right to format it according to our guidelines. Any submission 

provided to the Committee by a witness, any supplementary materials submitted for 

the printed record, and any written comments in response to a request for written 

comments must conform to the guidelines listed below. Any submission or supplementary item not in compliance with these guidelines will not be printed, but will 

be maintained in the Committee files for review and use by the Committee. 

1. All submissions and supplementary materials must be provided in Word or WordPerfect 

format and MUST NOT exceed a total of 10 pages, including attachments. Witnesses and submitters are advised that the Committee relies on electronic submissions for printing the official 

hearing record. 

2. Copies of whole documents submitted as exhibit material will not be accepted for printing. 

Instead, exhibit material should be referenced and quoted or paraphrased. All exhibit material 

not meeting these specifications will be maintained in the Committee files for review and use 

by the Committee. 

3. All submissions must include a list of all clients, persons and/or organizations on whose 

behalf the witness appears. A supplemental sheet must accompany each submission listing the 

name, company, address, telephone, and fax numbers of each witness. 

The Committee seeks to make its facilities accessible to persons with disabilities. 

If you are in need of special accommodations, please call 202–225–1721 or 202–226– 

3411 TTD/TTY in advance of the event (four business days’ notice is requested). 

Questions with regard to special accommodation needs in general (including availability of Committee materials in alternative formats) may be directed to the Committee as noted above. 


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Note: All Committee advisories and news releases are available on the World 

Wide Web at http://www.waysandmeans.house.gov

f 

/. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Good morning to both of you. 

Every 6 years, a new Commissioner is nominated and confirmed 

to lead the Social Security Administration. Congress deliberately 

created a term that might straddle political changes in the executive branch to underscore the importance of strong and independent leadership of this agency that touches the lives of every 

American. Former Commissioner Astrue’s 6-year term expired in 

January. Carolyn Colvin, formally the Deputy Commissioner, is 

currently serving as Acting Commissioner until a new Commissioner is confirmed. 

Every new Commissioner should first and foremost make sure 

that Social Security serves the American public well. Every Commissioner faces challenges at Social Security, some new, some that 

seem to never go away, and it will be no different for the next Commissioner. 

As part of its oversight responsibilities, this subcommittee takes 

the time to lay out the challenges facing the new Commissioner 

and strategies for how best to address them in order to meet the 

needs of the American public. Today, Social Security stands at a 

crucial crossroads, and it is going to be up to the new Commissioner to pick the right path. 

But no matter what path he or she chooses, two facts are indisputable. First, Social Security faces a predictable workload. Not 

only are on average 10,000 baby boomers applying for benefits each 

day, but applications for disability triggered by the great recession 

and weak recovery have never been higher. In just 4 years, the 

number of applications has grown from 2.3 million in 2008 to 3.2 

million last year. That is an increase of 40 percent. 

Worse, in recent years the number of people filing for benefits far 

exceeded the number of new jobs being created. Since 2010, the average number of people filing for disability benefits is just over 

249,000. At the same time, the average number of new jobs created 

is about 148,000 each month. For the sake of the disability program and the sake of our great country, we have got to grow our 

economy and get Americans back to work. 

Second, budget constraints are not going away. Congress has repeatedly approved bipartisan legislation signed into law by the 

President placing stringent and necessary spending caps on appropriations, including President Obama’s sequestration proposal. To 

assist the next Commissioner, I have asked the Government Accountability Office, or GAO, to take a look at the key challenges 

facing Social Security and what Social Security is doing about 

them. And as we will soon hear, Social Security’s key management 

challenges include workforce planning, managing its disability programs, modernizing information technology, and effectively utilizing its office space. 

GAO concludes that Social Security needs a long-term strategy 

to address all these issues, which it doesn’t have today. The Social 

Security Inspector General agrees, and several important watchdog 

groups, including the Social Security Advisory Board, have already 


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called on Social Security to move quickly on developing a long-term 

plan. Congress and the President have also called for a long-term 

strategy in the agency’s funding for fiscal year 2012. Then Social 

Security was directed to work with the National Academy of Public 

Administration to produce a long-range strategic plan. But to date, 

Social Security has failed to act. I will urge the new Commissioner 

to make this a priority after confirmation. 

As we all know, this subcommittee continues to take a hard look 

at the challenges Social Security faces in managing the disability 

program. In spite of the vast number of people who still wait over 

a year for a hearing, I was outraged to learn that the union which 

represents Administrative Law Judges just filed a lawsuit in Federal Court asking for an injunction against Social Security’s guidelines for judges, to handle 500 to 700 cases a year. The union 

claims these goals are illegal quotas and that management’s efforts 

to meet Congress and the public expectations for timely decisions 

interfere with the judges’ decision-making independence. I have 

talked to Federal judges. They don’t think that is unreasonable, by 

the way. 

This is the same union that argues that these highly paid Federal employees, who have no performance standards and cannot be 

fired without going through a time-consuming and expensive process, should be allowed to work at home at least 1 day a week. 

Let me be clear. No one is telling any judge what decision to 

make, so their independence is protected, and despite what the 

union argues, in fiscal year 2012, 79 percent of the judges were 

hearing at least 500 cases a year—79 percent, not very good, huh? 

Most taxpayers would be surprised to learn that last year the 

union representing judges spent $1 million in taxpayer dollars not 

on holding hearings, but on union activities. That is enough to fund 

a full year’s salary for nine judges. In fact, total taxpayer dollars 

spent by all four unions at Social Security reached $14.3 million 

last year, enough to fund a full year’s salary for about 206 employees. 

You would love to have that in your automobile dealership, 

wouldn’t you? 

Taxpayers fund the operations of this program and the essential 

benefits Social Security provides. They have a right to expect the 

agency will be well managed. To that end, I hope our hearing will 

help the President nominate the kind of experience, talented and 

decisive leader Social Security and America needs, wants, and deserves. 

Chairman JOHNSON. I now recognize the ranking member, Mr. 

Becerra, for his opening remarks, anything you care to say. 

Mr. BECERRA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased that we are doing this hearing on 

Social Security today. Social Security, as I have always said, is a 

bedrock of American society. In nearly 78 years, Social Security has 

weathered 13 recessions and during that time it has always paid 

benefits in full and on time. But Social Security will face challenges 

in the future. In roughly a quarter of a century, we know that because of the baby boom generation retiring we have to deal with 

the fact that we have more people retiring and fewer people working to pay in benefits, and so we do have to face these challenges. 


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And with all due respect to our distinguished panel, I am concerned that we don’t have all the right experts here today to talk 

about what is clearly the biggest challenge facing the new Social 

Security Commissioner: budget cuts that have left the Social Security Administration without enough resources to serve the public 

the way the public would like and the way Social Security should 

serve all of those who paid into the system. 

Americans, remember, have contributed—— 

[Audio malfunction in hearing room.] 

Mr. BECERRA. OK, are we back? And, Mr. Chairman, if I could 

just make sure that—the clock kept running while we were stalled 

there, so if you could just do me a favor and grant me a little extra 

time there. 

But as I was saying, with all due respect to our panel who I believe have always provided us with excellent testimony as distinguished witnesses, I am concerned that not all the right experts 

are here today to talk about what is clearly the biggest challenge 

facing the new Social Security Commissioner. As I said, it is budget 

cuts, budget cuts that have left the Social Security Administration 

without enough resources to serve the public the way Social Security should and the way Americans want the program they have 

paid for to serve them. 

And let’s not forget, Americans have paid for their Social Security. Every paycheck, we take money out of their check to pay for 

Social Security and Medicare. Yet this Congress has prevented Social Security Administration from investing what is needed in order 

to provide Americans with the services that they have paid for. 

Let’s remember, even before the budget cuts, Social Security was 

extremely efficient, spending something around a penny, actually 

less than a penny on program administration for every dollar it 

spends paying the benefits American workers have earned. 

So who is missing from today’s hearing? Well, Mr. Chairman, as 

I discussed with you before and as I indicated in the letter that I 

sent to you, and I would like to submit that for the record at this 

stage—— 

Chairman JOHNSON. Without objection. 

Mr. BECERRA. Thank you. We don’t have the Commissioner, the 

person who is in charge of running the entire agency here to tell 

us what the challenges are that she will face in leading the Social 

Security Administration. We don’t have any of the front line employees from the district offices in our districts that provide the 

services every day to Americans who have earned their Social Security benefits. And certainly, as you can see at this table, we don’t 

have anyone who is an American citizen who is receiving benefits 

and could tell us: These are the challenges I think the agency faces 

as I walk through the doors to receive the benefits that I have paid 

for. 

Mr. Chairman, there are consequences in not funding Social Security properly. And I have pulled together some charts that we 

can see here today. Three years of cuts have taken a toll on Social 

Security. 

We can go to the next slide. 


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Let’s remember, the number of people that have been paying into 

and are now beginning to collect their benefits because they paid 

into it is not shrinking, it is growing. 

Next slide. 

At the same time what has happened to the budget of the Social 

Security Administration while it tries to serve a growing population of people who have earned benefits? It has been shrinking. 

Next slide. 

What is the result? Well, Social Security at some point had to 

give. And what has happened is you see that staff reductions have 

occurred throughout the United States, an average of a 10 percent 

cut. So one in 10 of those workers we saw a few years back are 

no longer there. In some places it is as high as one in every five 

of those Social Security workers is no longer there providing services. 

Next chart. 

What has happened to the caseload of people coming to the Social Security Administration’s offices? Well, you can see it is not 

shrinking at a time that we are shrinking the budget. It continues 

to increase increase. 

Next slide. 

What happens to the wait time that people now are experiencing, 

Americans who paid for these benefits, what is going on right now? 

You can see it right there. People are waiting twice as long just to 

get on the phone to talk to folks. This is like going to the grocery 

store and the grocer saying: I am going to tell their cashiers to go 

take their break or take a furlough at the time that I am most 

busiest with the most patrons in my grocery store trying to shop 

and pay for the goods that they are going to get ready to pay for. 

Next slide. 

What is the result? Well, remember, most of us on this committee have been working for some time to reduce the backlog of 

American citizens who are waiting in some cases years to receive 

the benefits they paid for. We took a course of action a few years 

back to provide Social Security with the resources it needed to deal 

with that, and there is where you see the downtrend in the number 

of disability wait times, the amount of time. Guess what has happened as a result of the budget cuts? You see it creeping back up 

again. 

Next slide. 

By the way, when we talk about the disability wait times, remember, we are talking about people waiting 500 days, over a year. 

We got that down to about 150 days by fiscal year 2011. But now 

it is going up again, as you can see there in that chart that we reverted you back to. That is what happens when you underfund the 

agency even though it has the money to pay because people have 

paid for those things. 

Next chart. 

Unprocessed work. Well, we talked about the disability casework 

that is not being handled in a timely way. This unprocessed work 

is work that has not yet begun to be processed. You can see what 

is happening. It is mounting and mounting, and these are cases 

that at some point will have to be opened. 

Next chart. 


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The worst perhaps sin I think that we can think of is the fact 

that when we know that we can save money—and I think our two 

witnesses that are here today can talk about this—when we go 

after the cases of abuse where people, maybe even by innocent mistake, claim benefits when they shouldn’t be getting them, we 

should be able to go after that. We know we save $9 for every dollar we use to do those reviews of people to ensure the integrity of 

the system. We can’t even get the funding for that. It has been cut. 

Mr. Chairman, we need to move forward. We need to make sure 

that we all face the challenges that Social Security will encounter 

together. Social Security has been a bedrock of our Nation. People 

have paid for this. And so I would just urge us to work together 

to make sure that we have the full testimony of everyone who can 

add some good word on what we can do. 

I look forward to the testimony of our two witnesses who I know 

will add a great deal. I hope at some point soon, Mr. Chairman, 

we will finally have a hearing in this committee with jurisdiction 

on the issue of the Social Security Administration’s budget which 

has been cut to the point where American citizens and those who 

paid into this are paying the price. Yield back. 

Chairman JOHNSON. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

Chairman JOHNSON. And I am going to make a couple of points 

in response to what the Ranking Member said. 

Number one, we have got at least three judges out there in Social 

Security that do not handle any cases. And they are wanting our 

judges to handle less than what they do right now. 

I would like to make a couple of points. First, the percent of the 

people rating Social Security as excellent, good, or very good 

reached 81 percent in 2012, up 3 percent since 2010. Second, failing to get our fiscal house in order will jeopardize the very safety 

net the Ranking Member cares so much about. And at the close of 

fiscal year 2009, the year President Obama took office, our Nation’s 

debt was $11.8 trillion, and this year it is going to reach $17 trillion. And under the President’s budget, an additional $8 trillion of 

debt will be added. 

The fact is the President, along with the Democrats and Republicans, have agreed to Social Security’s funding levels. The appropriators have kept Social Security’s budget level when most other 

agencies have seen sharp declines. 

I will end this by saying, as the authorizing committee for this 

essential program we need to focus on what we can change. We can 

start by working together to remove outdated provisions in the law 

to help the agency more effectively serve the public. 

As is customary, any member is welcome to submit a statement 

for the hearing record. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Before we move on to our testimony 

today, I want to remind our witnesses to please limit their oral 

statement to 5 minutes. However, without objection, all of the written testimony will be made part of the hearing record. 

We have one witness panel today. Seated at the table are Patrick 

O’Carroll Jr., Inspector General, Social Security Administration; 

and Dan Bertoni, the Director of Education, Workforce, and Income 

Security Issues at the U.S. Government Accountability Office. 

Welcome to both of you for being here. 


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And Mr. O’Carroll, please go ahead with your testimony. 

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE PATRICK P. O’CARROLL, JR., 

INSPECTOR GENERAL, SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION 

Mr. O’CARROLL. Good morning, Chairman Johnson, Ranking 

Member Becerra, and Members of the Subcommittee. Thank you 

very much for having me here today. 

The next Commissioner of Social Security faces challenges that 

require forward thinking and long-term planning. SSA has been a 

model of government customer service for more than 75 years. To 

continue that record of success, the agency must invest in information technology, modernize systems and services, and focus on program integrity. And SSA must achieve this in a national spotlight 

shining on Federal spending and entitlement program solvency. 

More people are coming to Social Security at a time when resources and staffing are limited. SSA must improve strategic planning and take greater advantage of technology to meet this demand. For example, the agency expects to receive almost half of all 

benefit claims online by the end of the fiscal year. Future generations will expect to do all business with SSA electronically. SSA’s 

strategic plan, however, does not include a detailed roadmap to expand electronic and mobile capabilities to meet these expectations. 

The plan should address not only short-term, but also long-term 

service challenges. SSA and DDS staff must also balance service 

initiatives, such as processing new claims, with stewardship reviews to ensure the integrity of agency programs. 

Reducing the complexity of SSA’s benefit programs and evaluating current policies could streamline operations and save millions 

of dollars each year. I have included several recommendations in 

my written statement, but I am pleased to see SSA is moving forward with the Disability Claims Processing System. DCPS is a nationwide state-of-the-art computer system that could significantly 

improve the disability decision process. It will integrate case analysis tools and electronic medical records and should provide consistent case processing across the country. DCPS is currently being 

tested at several offices. The system could be exactly the type of 

tool SSA needs to efficiently manage future workloads. 

Technology and data analysis can help SSA meet customer demands, and it can also improve program integrity. For years, my 

office has encouraged SSA to pursue data matches among Federal, 

State, and local agencies to improve payment accuracy. Government maintains a wealth of data that if matched among agencies 

could reduce payment error and prevent fraud. Some of the data 

matches we have recommended include seeking pension data from 

State and local governments, accessing workers’ comp data maintained by States and the Department of Labor, and working with 

State bureaus of vital statistics to obtain death data and information on beneficiaries’ marital status. 

I should also take this time to say, as SSA develops a long-term 

IT plan, it is critical that the agency closely monitor the construction of the new National Support Center. The NSC will replace the 

aging National Computer Center. A timely transition to the new 

center will eliminate the risk of an extended outage that could affect SSA’s ability to provide critical services. 


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A related issue is SSA’s long reliance on its cost analysis system 

to examine data and allocate administrative costs to agency programs. In recent years, we have recommended that SSA update its 

cost allocation methodology to account for changes in business processes and technology. As SSA and its workloads and systems 

evolve, so, too, should its cost accounting system. 

In conclusion, SSA exists to serve the beneficiaries of today, but 

also to safeguard funds for the beneficiaries of the future. So, 

again, to meet the goals of today and tomorrow, SSA should invest 

in information technology, modernize systems and services, and 

focus on program integrity. Doing so will improve service, speed 

and accuracy, and protect taxpayer dollars for future generations. 

I look forward to working constructively with the next Commissioner of Social Security to meet the challenges ahead. I thank you, 

again, for the invitation to testify, and I will be happy to answer 

any questions. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you sir. Thank you for your testimony. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. O’Carroll follows:] 


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f 

Chairman JOHNSON. Mr. Bertoni, welcome again, please proceed. 


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STATEMENT OF DANIEL BERTONI, DIRECTOR, EDUCATION, 

WORKFORCE, AND INCOME SECURITY, GENERAL ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE 

Mr. BERTONI. Good morning. Chairman Johnson, Ranking 

Member Becerra, Members of the Subcommittee, good morning. I 

am pleased to discuss our work on the Social Security Administration’s critical management challenges. SSA provides benefits and 

services that touch the lives of nearly every American and last year 

paid out over $800 billion in benefits. 

However, with the aging of the baby boom generation, the agency 

faces increased workloads and large numbers of potential retirements over the long term. It is within this context that a new Commissioner will soon head the agency and face many complex issues. 

My statement today is based on our ongoing work and describes 

key management challenges SSA faces in meeting its mission and 

the extent to which the agency’s planning efforts address those 

challenges. 

In summary, over the next decade, SSA will experience challenges related to human capital management, disability program 

issues, information technology, and physical infrastructure. 

First, an expected wave of retirements, coupled with an extended 

hiring freeze, represents a challenge for the agency in meeting a 

projected growth in workloads. However, our preliminary work suggests that SSA’s strategies for preventing a loss of leadership and 

needed skills may be insufficient due to the lack of an updated succession plan and curtailment of leadership development programs 

which have historically provided a pipeline of future leaders. 

Second, SSA also continues to face challenges in modernizing the 

medical record criteria and labor market information that underlies 

disability programs while balancing competing needs to reduce disability claims backlogs and conduct program integrity activities. In 

particular, the agency still lacks a formalized cost estimate and research and development plan for its modernization efforts and faces 

uncertainty in its ability to meet disability case processing and program integrity review targets due in part to resource constraints 

and how it has prioritized its workloads. 

Third, while SSA has made strides in updating its IT systems, 

which are critical to addressing growing work demands, the agency 

continues to be challenged in ensuring its IT plan is periodically refreshed and adhered to, that outdated legacy applications are modernized to improve service delivery, and information security controls sufficiently protect sensitive information. 

And fourth, although SSA has taken steps to centralize its facilities management and has initiated some efforts to reduce its physical footprint, the agency has not systematically assessed potential 

approaches for consolidating or realigning its staff and organizational structure to better support changing methods of service delivery, such as more online transactions and other nonface-to-face 

interactions, which are more likely over the next decade and beyond, further challenging its ability to leverage limited program 

and staff resources. 

Mr. Chairman, staying out in front of these challenges will require thoughtful long-term planning on SSA’s part. However, the 

agency’s current strategic plan and draft service delivery plan 


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maintain a short-term focus, rather than articulating longer-term 

strategies to address the issues discussed today. 

For years, we and others have recommended that SSA propose 

a long-term vision to ensure it has the processes, staff, and infrastructure to provide services in the future. However, absent a dedicated entity within SSA to spearhead such an initiative and uncertainty with SSA’s budget, such activities have not been an agency 

priority for many years. 

In conclusion, the challenges SSA faces will affect its ability to 

address critical concerns in the coming years. However, SSA’s efforts to meet many of its challenges have been complicated by 

budgetary constraints and uncertainty about the current and future fiscal environment. Despite these constraints, SSA still needs 

to balance competing resource demands both in terms of managing 

day-to-day budget decisions and planning for longer-term issues. 

And absent prompt action early in the new Commissioner’s term, 

the agency jeopardizes its ability to provide quality service to the 

public in the coming years. 

Moreover, the interrelated nature of SSA’s challenges calls for a 

longer-term integrated strategy to ensure actions taken are coordinated and effective. However, without focus and sustained leadership across the agency’s many organizational silos, SSA may miss 

an opportunity to assess and make sound decisions, including how 

many and what types of employees are needed in the future, how 

the agency will service competing workloads, and more strategically use information technology and physical infrastructure to best 

deliver services. 

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement. I am happy to answer any questions that you or other Members of the Subcommittee may have. Thank you. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you for your testimony. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Bertoni follows:] 


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f 

Chairman JOHNSON. As is customary, we will ask questions. In 

each round I will limit my time to 5 minutes and ask my colleagues 

to also limit their time during the questioning session. 

Mr. O’Carroll, one of the concerns I have is the safety of Social 

Security’s huge databanks of sensitive information. I understand 

you share this concern and, in fact, have raised a red flag, Social 

Security’s first-ever material weakness in their audit report beVerDate Sep 11 2014 15:34 Jun 28, 2016 Jkt 089586 PO 00000 Frm 00047 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 I:\WAYS\OUT\89586.XXX 89586

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cause internal systems could be accessed by auditors. Social Security was warned about this the year before and did nothing. 

Tell me, have they fixed the problem? 

Mr. O’CARROLL. Mr. Chairman, it is an ongoing process of repair on it. I must say that the Acting Commissioner has made it 

a priority, and as a result of that my office and Grant Thornton, 

the contract auditor that identified the problems, meet probably on 

a monthly basis with the agency. We met as recently as last week, 

management teams, to discuss it. They have tiger teams working 

to correct the problem on it. So I must say SSA is aggressively taking steps to identify the issues that were raised, and we are hoping 

that they will be able to alleviate the problem as soon as possible. 

So I have to say we are on top of it, we are watching it very closely, 

and I am seeing at least a commitment on the part of SSA to fix 

it. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Well, are they accessing that system from 

outside or at the local offices or up here? 

Mr. O’CARROLL. The way they are doing is, is that they have— 

they, Grant Thornton, hires hackers that are constantly pinging 

SSA to see if there are any vulnerabilities. And what they were 

finding is, is that by not outside, which is good news, so it is not 

an external penetration on it, but from internal use of any of the— 

what they are doing is, is that by accessing internal systems in 

SSA, they can get much better permissions and then get deeper 

into the security functions. That is what happened last year, and 

that is what is being prevented now. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Are they stealing Social Security numbers? 

Mr. O’CARROLL. No, they are not. And what that is, is it is really, as I said, it is internal, there hasn’t been any extent of where 

they are being able to do it from externally or a different country 

doing it or anything else. So at the moment the internal ones are 

being fixed. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Well, for both of you, do you believe the 

way Social Security serves the public today will work in the future? 

And if not, what does Social Security need to do to modernize the 

way it does business? You going to let Bertoni go first? 

Mr. BERTONI. I think one area, it is structural in design but it 

really has an operational aspect here, and it is the agency really 

needs to modernize its medical and vocational criteria and develop 

an occupational information system that is really reflective of what 

it means to have a work disability in this country, what jobs are 

in the national economy. We have long said that they need that, 

to have criteria that is more reflective of what it means to be disabled today. 

We know they are working on modernization of their criteria, 

they are moving forward with an occupational information system. 

They are behind. We have some real concerns with design and implementation. But if they get this right, I think it really has operational implications to help them free up resources that they are 

now expending and sometimes not expending and to the great concern of the Congress. That is, if we can really get people on the 

rolls who are truly reflective of what it means to be disabled today, 

we will likely have less instance of folks violating the work rules, 


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going out and working later on. In essence they are having to chase 

that money through the work CDRs and the medical reviews. 

Right now we know that the bulk of overpayments in the work 

at the back end is to follow up on work activity. So if we really 

have a system that says you cannot work in the national economy, 

there is no job in the national economy for you, then perhaps you 

will have fewer folks wading into this unauthorized work activity 

and in essence having to chase it at great administrative cost and 

the Congress asking them why they are not doing that work because they are making some priority choices. 

Beyond that, I think there are real opportunities to look at services that they should be providing, modes of services, electronic access, online access, smart phones, kiosk in remote locations. Those 

are ways to leverage their limited resources and to work smarter. 

I think they need to be part of that vision, to say: Here is where 

we can move, here is where it is not feasible, and here is what it 

is going to cost for us to do that. 

Chairman JOHNSON. How many of those are you catching every 

day in the IG’s office? 

Mr. O’CARROLL. We are catching quite a few of those. And I 

will go into those a little bit more in depth later. But I agree with 

what Dan said in terms of electronic service. That should be the 

role of the future. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Okay. My time has expired. 

Mr. Becerra, you are recognized. 

Mr. BECERRA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And once again thank you for the work that you are doing and 

we hope that you will continue to work—I know you are going to 

continue to work with Social Security Administration on this. And 

we need to make progress on technology, the modernization, and I 

hope we are able to do that, because the workload for Social Security is not going to decrease, it is going to increase. 

And I think, Mr. Bertoni, in your, I think, if I am looking at your 

testimony, your written testimony, you point out that, in a chart, 

back in 2002 there were 50.8 million, about 51 million Americans 

who were receiving benefits from Social Security. So 51 million 

Americans who were coming into Social Security to get services; 

2012, last year, 62 million Americans receiving benefits and services. By 2025 the projection, 85.5 million people. So it is not going 

to stop, it is just going to grow. And so we have got to deal with 

the fact that we need the capacity to deal with more folks quickly 

and accurately so we don’t pay out benefits to people who don’t deserve them and we don’t delay benefits for those who have earned 

them. 

But I think you would agree that you need people to do some of 

this stuff. It would be great if we could handle this through just 

automation and computers, but we will need people, and the growing workload will require you to have smart, intelligent people. 

And I think you point out that the folks that Social Security seems 

to be losing now with these budget cuts are people who are very 

experienced. The retirements, the chart that you point out, retirements, it is a little ominous. We are losing a lot of the folks who 

have done the work for a long time, and we may not have the reVerDate Sep 11 2014 15:34 Jun 28, 2016 Jkt 089586 PO 00000 Frm 00049 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 I:\WAYS\OUT\89586.XXX 89586

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sources at the Social Security Administration to do the training for 

any folks who might come in. 

The worst part of this, of course, is the Social Security has a hiring freeze, right, so they are losing experienced people and they are 

not able to hire folks to replace them. Is that a good prescription 

to try to deal with the growing workload that we have? 

Mr. BERTONI. I think the prescription for dealing with the 

growing workload is certainly to have the right people in the right 

place at the right time with the correct knowledge, skills, and abilities. And there is no question that the agency is stretched to the 

limit, near limits, in what they are doing with the staff they have 

now. But I do believe world class organizations, regardless of the 

budget situation, you have to do something. And right now it looks 

like there is almost no succession plan. We have been told this was 

a luxury. But I don’t think it is a luxury. I think it is more than 

that. I think there are opportunities to leverage what they are 

doing in the human capital office to have some level of succession 

planning. 

Mr. BECERRA. Have you had a conversation with the interim 

administrator, Social Security administrator, on what she plans to 

do on this issue of successor—— 

Mr. BERTONI. Ms. Colvin? Ms. Colvin. 

Mr. BECERRA. Yes. 

Mr. BERTONI. No, we have not. We have talked to folks in the 

offices associated with—— 

Mr. BECERRA. As I said, Mr. Chairman, Ms. Colvin should be 

here. We should be able to hear from her. Because when you tell 

us you testify about things that need to happen, it would be great 

to then say: So, Ms. Colvin, what do you say? How do you respond? 

Your testimony is critical. But we are missing a piece. We are 

missing a piece from the folks who could tell us, well, this is what 

we are trying to do in response to what we have been told by GAO 

or the Inspector General. We should have someone at this table 

who is from the district offices who could say, we would love to do 

what Mr. Bertoni is asking us to do, but this is the problem, or this 

is what we are doing. We are missing that. And of course the person who actually receives the service at the end of the day, the person who paid for your salary, my salary, and put the money in the 

bank for Social Security so the benefits could be paid, the American 

person, the American citizen, beneficiary, not here. 

This is a good hearing, but it is an incomplete hearing. And I 

hope we don’t give people this impression that this is all we can 

do, is talk to two very important witnesses without hearing from 

the others as well. 

Mr. Bertoni, you mentioned in your testimony the growth in the 

caseload. What has happened to Social Security Administration’s 

budget in the last 2, 3 years? 

Mr. BERTONI. It has remained fairly static. 

Mr. BECERRA. Okay, steady. While the caseload keeps growing 

its budget number—is the budget today as big as it was in 2011? 

Mr. BERTONI. I believe it is. 

Mr. BECERRA. In 2010? 

Mr. BERTONI. I can get those figures. I don’t have them specifically. 


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Mr. BECERRA. My understanding is that the budget today has 

gone down to what it was back in 2010, and in those 3 years we 

have added hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people to the 

caseload. 

So by the way, I think a point we should make, Mr. Chairman, 

is that Social Security has money to pay for its administration. We 

pay taxes for that. As I mentioned before, about one penny out of 

every dollar that people contribute in taxes is used for the cost of 

administration. We are shortchanging SSA from the ability to provide services to people who paid for those benefits even though the 

money is there to pay for the cost of administering the programs. 

Unlike other agencies in the Federal Government, Social Security 

does have money to pay for administration and it does it very efficiently. But once again we don’t have anyone from SSA to tell us 

about that. 

And with that, I will yield back the balance of my time. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Mr. Renacci, you are recognized. 

Mr. RENACCI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to thank 

the witnesses for being here. 

You know, it is interesting, as I hear, we talk about budget cuts 

and operations, I think of being a small business owner for almost 

20 years and a CPA who had to deal with many small business 

owners who every day had to get up with limited dollars and get 

things accomplished and still provide the same services. So I am 

not sure it is always budget issues. I think sometimes we are really 

have to be more efficient. 

We have a program here in Social Security that we need to make 

sure is solvent for the long term, that its systems are working 

properly. But it is interesting because I was sitting here listening, 

I am thinking, boy, as a small business owner, which there are 

many of them out there in America right now listening, they wish 

they had more money but they know every day they have to run 

more efficiently with what they have. And I think that is probably 

the most important thing that I hope here in the government we 

can start doing, living with bringing efficiencies into the system. 

So a couple things, though, when I think about some of the 

issues that we are talking about, we are talking about a Commissioner and having the Acting Commissioner here. Mr. Bertoni, we 

have had acting managers in the business world. We real really 

need a Commissioner. It would be probably important if the administration would nominate a Commissioner so we can move forward. 

But what can an Acting Commissioner do when he or she knows 

that maybe another Commissioner will come in and change things? 

Mr. BERTONI. I think that is an excellent question, and I think 

if you look government-wide whenever we have acting situations 

you don’t see big, bold moves. You are going to see administration 

of the current priorities and the recent priorities of the prior Commissioner. I think it is very difficult for an Acting Commissioner 

to be big and bold and to begin to articulate a vision that represents considerable change to convince folks in the agency who 

will be there when they potentially leave, if they don’t convert to 

the Commissioner, and to convince you all that you should buy into 

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So I do think that the acting status is not helpful to SSA for an 

extended period of time. 

Mr. RENACCI. Mr. O’Carroll, I think in your testimony you 

talked about a system, it has not been updated since 1976, I am 

talking about the Social Security time and cost accounting systems. 

I understand this has been covered in a series of audits. Tell us 

what you did find and what actions Social Security has taken in 

response to that. 

Mr. O’CARROLL. Yes, Mr. Renacci. What we found is, is that basically that system is not capturing the work level that it is reporting. And when you think back in the 1970s when it was designed, 

it was basically taking a look at different functions that SSA was 

doing. And since then computers have taken over a lot. A lot of the 

workload that was done in paper and tally sheets and that type of 

information has all been replaced by computers. So what we are 

hoping for is that SSA would start updating that system so it 

would be more reflective of the workloads that it is reporting. 

And the other part is anything that goes back to the 1970s isn’t 

as automated, and a lot of the information is manually put into it, 

and when you have the manual input in these days that is where 

oftentimes you are having your problems in terms of, it is when we 

did our audit we were finding that the accuracy level was very low 

when it is done manually. 

So again it is a top priority, SSA’s Acting Commissioner is looking at this, Grant Thornton gave a briefing on it about 2 weeks 

ago, and we are doing everything we can to support having that 

updated. 

Mr. RENACCI. Mr. O’Carroll, can you also talk about the work 

incentive simplification pilot? Could you tell us a little more about 

the pilot program? And do you feel it could yield savings? 

Mr. O’CARROLL. Yes, Mr. Renacci. To be truthful, I can’t really 

comment on it because it is a pilot that is being done by SSA right 

now trying to simplify the work incentives on it. One of the other 

thing that we have worked on is Ticket to Work, and we are finding that that hasn’t been all that successful, and we are finding 

that the work incentives simplication program is going to probably 

be—what we are hoping for is better than the Ticket to Work in 

terms of simplifying the incentive program. 

Mr. RENACCI. Thank you. I see my time has run out. I yield 

back. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you. 

Mr. Thompson, do you care to question? 

Mr. THOMPSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do. Thank you for 

holding the hearing. 

And thanks to both of you for the work that you are doing. 

Mr. O’Carroll, there have been a number of reports lately, most 

of these have been on the radio, portraying Social Security disability as the new unemployment. Can you comment on that? 

Mr. O’CARROLL. Yes Mr. Thompson. Well, first I guess was it 

last month that the actuary of Social Security testified before this 

committee and was talking about how a lot that is effecting the rise 

in the number of claims that are going towards SSA is being driven 

mostly by demographics. And one of the things that we have been 

finding and I think everybody has found is, is that there has been 


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a 93 percent increase in unemployment, and at the same time 

there has been about a 33 percent increase in disability claims towards SSA. So we are finding that they are not necessarily rising 

dramatically or identically. 

And what we are also finding, too, is, is that the SSA’s amount 

of allowances has been decreasing. So again it hasn’t been SSA is 

putting more people on the rolls. In fact, they are decreasing the 

number of allowances that are happening. So again I think what 

we are trying to, or at least what the agency was trying to do and 

the actuary is saying is, is that at this point now 10 years ago they 

were predicting that there would be the raise in the amount of people applying for disability mostly because the demographics of the 

baby boomers are all coming into that time period. They are of the 

age 50-plus, which is the time when most disabilities are being reported. So is that sufficient? 

Mr. THOMPSON. Thank you. 

Mr. O’CARROLL. You are welcome. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Also in your testimony you estimate that for 

every dollar that is spent on continuing disability reviews that you 

yield $9 in savings. And you also note that there is a little over a 

million cases in backlog. So if your budget were increased or if it 

hadn’t been cut to the extent that it been over the course of the 

last 3 years, would that help process this backlog and maybe even 

return some money for the program? 

Mr. O’CARROLL. Absolutely. Something that we have been insisting on is that SSA has to do that balance between stewardship 

and service. And what oftentimes happens is, is that SSA feels that 

when resources decline, they are going to go more for service than 

for the stewardship. And just as we were saying, is you get anywhere from 15 to 1 on a work CDR, you are getting about a 9 to 

1 on a medical CDR. And then again if you even do with redeterminations are a 7 to 1. That is why we are usually saying it is 

averaging out right in the 9 to 1 range on the benefit of them. 

One thing that we feel on it is, is that it is really an SSA decision 

where they put their resources, and what we are hoping for is, is 

that they put more resources towards the redeterminations in the 

continuing disability reviews no matter what, that should always 

be a priority when they are balancing out the service and stewardship. But it is a decision that management at SSA makes. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Thank you. My last question is a little out of 

the ordinary and I apologize upfront for asking it. But since Congress has been talking about ways to minimize or prevent gun violence prevention, I know my office, I don’t know about the rest of 

you all, but we have had an inordinate number of contacts from 

people who are claiming that the Social Security Administration, 

along with I believe NOAA, is stockpiling hollow point bullets. 

Are you all trying to take over the world? Or is there some explanation for this? 

Mr. O’CARROLL. Believe it or not, I have got this answer quite 

well because I just testified with another committee yesterday 

about this. One, what we are trying to do—or, one, all of our agents 

are 1811 law enforcement officers. And part of our having law enforcement authority is that we have to qualify with our duty weapon on a quarterly basis. And what happened was is that when we 


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did a procurement about a year ago for more ammunition, the Web 

sites picked it up and the blogosphere had it out that we were arming Social Security offices and bringing ammunition in should there 

be civil unrest. 

Mr. BECERRA. You may have to do that if you keep cutting the 

number of employees. 

Mr. O’CARROLL. And then what we reported back, in fact, to 

the Chairman on it and we put it on our blog was that the number 

of ammunition that we order is identical to the amount that we 

shoot every year for our qualifications, and it is not like we are trying to stockpile weapons. And I have to say, give ourselves a plug, 

is yesterday we credited with keeping better track of all the ammunition that we have in comparison to the Department of Homeland 

Security. We were used as sort of the model for accountability 

when it came to the ammunition that we have. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Well, thank you. I will sleep better tonight. 

Chairman JOHNSON. I remember in Korea and Vietnam we 

didn’t have to account for them, we just shot them. 

Mister—— 

Mr. TIBERI. Me? 

Chairman JOHNSON. Yeah, you. 

Mr. TIBERI. Is that a yes or a no? 

Chairman JOHNSON. Tiberi, you are recognized. 

Mr. O’CARROLL. On civil unrest or—— 

Mr. TIBERI. On Mr. Thompson’s question. 

Mr. Bertoni, have you ever been to Disney World. 

Mr. BERTONI. Yes. 

Mr. TIBERI. Been there lately? 

Mr. BERTONI. Yes. 

Mr. TIBERI. Pretty special place. 

Mr. BERTONI. Agree. 

Mr. BECERRA. Careful now. 

Mr. TIBERI. This has nothing to do with this particular testimony that you have, but you are an auditor. Does it ever cross your 

mind of what you do at GAO and where you audit, wow, what they 

do at Disney World is pretty special in terms of something Mr. 

Renacci talked about, efficiency, stewardship, and service that you 

mentioned. I was thinking of that when you all were talking. And 

by the way, one of my daughters recently said, boy, all these people 

are so nice, people who work there, whether they were 18 or 80 and 

in between, everybody was so nice and they weren’t getting paid 

$100,000 to be nice. The culture was unbelievable. 

Have you ever thought as a GAO auditor that maybe there is 

something that we could do at the Federal level to change the culture, that it is not all about money, that it is about efficiency, service, stewardship? What can we do to implement what you talked 

about, what you found concerning succession planning, disability 

issues, information technology, and physical infrastructure? Some 

of that has to do with money, but does it all have to do with 

money? 

Mr. BERTONI. I would say no. And to all due respect to Mr. 

Becerra, I think most agencies today would say we could use more 

resources. But I don’t see a lot of resources on the horizon. So efficiency and stewardship has to come into play. And again I think 


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even with the resources they have been given over the last several 

years, while some might think that is insufficient, I can give you 

numerous examples where SSA has rolled out initiatives to fix the 

disability programs and make it better that were poorly designed, 

were poorly implemented, and never evaluated. So when you look 

at funds expended versus funds received, efficiency didn’t wring 

out. And we have had numerous occasions where a backlog reduction initiative had made it worse. 

So I think there are opportunities to lay some of this on the management doorstep, say you need to work more efficiently within the 

resources you have, you need to define business plans, define plans 

that articulate return on investment, evidence of due diligence before you strike out on very large pilots and demonstration projects. 

We haven’t seen that. I have been in this business for many years, 

and we haven’t seen enough of that. 

We certainly are frustrated. I can understand frustration on the 

part of the overseers who, when the agency comes to the table for 

more resources, these business plans, these documents that would 

document return on investment, if you give us X, we can deliver 

Y, we haven’t seen, I think, if they could come to the table in some 

critical areas with those information, I think the Congress would 

have more information to make those funding decisions, better information. 

Mr. TIBERI. So I know you don’t have the ability to audit Disney, but would it be worthwhile for GAO to maybe give maybe 

some additional guidance to some of these agencies based upon 

what other people have done successfully to use fewer dollars to 

implement better programs? 

Mr. BERTONI. Absolutely, and we do that on a regular basis. 

Mr. TIBERI. You do already do that? 

Mr. BERTONI. We can talk best practices, we talk what is common in the various communities for managing backlogs for demonstration projects, pilots, years and years of recommendations. 

Sometimes they take them up, sometimes they don’t. 

Mr. TIBERI. Mr. O’Carroll, you have provided some information 

to Social Security, I understand, in your testimony where they 

could save billions of dollars based upon your audits, but they have 

not implemented them. Do you know why? 

Mr. O’CARROLL. Mr. Tiberi, again this would probably be best 

answered by the agency on it. What we do is, is we track what recommendations that we make and then go back to see which ones 

have been implemented by the agency. 

Mr. TIBERI. But you would contend that you have made recommendations for them to save billions of dollars that has not been 

done yet? 

Mr. O’CARROLL. Yes. Amongst which is the continuing disability reviews that we just talked about. Billions could be saved 

if they were done on a regular basis and prioritized. 

Mr. TIBERI. Would you argue as a taxpayer that maybe we 

should make sure that those recommendations are done before 

more money is given? 

Mr. O’CARROLL. Yes. But what I would do on that same line, 

Mr. Tiberi, would be is if this committee or the appropriators could 

designate that CDRs have to be done, make it a condition on any 


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type of appropriation that they get that they have to do a certain 

number of them. And in the past that has been designated in the 

appropriation and they were done and at that time it was very efficient. 

Mr. TIBERI. Thank you. I yield back. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Is it a lack of people to do those followup things or money? 

Mr. O’CARROLL. I think it is probably a combination. I think it 

is prioritizing, deciding which ones are the most important things 

to do for the agency. And that is what we have always said is, is 

that, as everybody, when you have a pot of money in front of you, 

you have to make your decisions which area you want to put it 

into. And our feeling is, is that in the fraud prevention and the 

identifying of money before and after is important. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you. 

Mr. Griffin, you are recognized. 

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Thank you all for being here today. I suspect if you went around 

the city of Washington and brought just about any agency in to 

Congress and asked them if they needed more money, I don’t know 

one that would say that they have got sufficient money. 

When I look at this, particularly with the systems that are used, 

and it is not just Social Security Administration, it is throughout 

government, there is a lot more going on than just funding. 

The VA has a big backlog, and their computer systems can’t talk 

to DOD. Now, a lot of that has to do with, I think, contractors making unique systems so they will have jobs forever. And this goes on 

all around Washington. 

It seems to me that asking for more money to support a 1976 accounting system is like a race car driver telling us that if we will 

just give him more money he can win with his 1975 Pinto. 

Mr. GRIFFIN. It can’t happen. It just can’t happen. And the sad 

thing is, it is not just Social Security Administration. Pick the 

agency. Just pick one. They are all top down. They are all lost in 

the old. They are all working on 20-, 30-, 40-year paradigms. They 

are trying. They are trying. But look at what the VA has done with 

the backlog. It is disgusting. It is ridiculous. And a lot of it is not 

that they need more money. It hasn’t worked with the VA. We 

throw money away. 

And so what a lot of us are saying is, show some innovation, 

change your culture, do things differently. Maybe you are hampered in large part by the laws that this Congress has passed, the 

civil service system or whatever, you know. Congress can bear 

some blame there. But the idea that you are going to give more 

money to a Federal agency and everything is going to be just okay, 

it is just a bunch of nonsense. 

I was running with a general down the mall the other day and 

I said, how is sequester affecting DOD? And he said, you know, you 

are not going to hear this a lot but I am being told at the Pentagon 

that we may not be able to spend all the money. 

And I said, what? 

He said, yeah, you know, we are going to find places to spend it. 


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I met with a commander at an air base in my district who said— 

I asked him about sequester—he said, you know, in a weird way 

I think the Air Force is going to be stronger than ever. 

I said, really? 

He said, we have never had to make choices before now. We have 

always had plenty of money to waste. And now we have to make 

smart decisions. That is the commander. 

So, you know, I think that innovation and efficiency and reform 

is the path forward. And I want to ask you, Mr. Bertoni—and I enjoyed our meeting in our office and I know we are going to have 

some more. I think you are doing some great stuff. 

Mr. Bertoni—and since I have talked with you so such, I am 

going to ask Mr. Bertoni a question—a recent GAO report looked 

at the technology spending and how it is divided between maintaining and investing in new technology. Could you talk a little bit 

about that split and why maintenance costs have been growing so 

rapidly? 

Mr. BERTONI. Actually, that wasn’t a part of the scope of this 

review, so I am not your best expert to touch on those issues. That 

had to do with sort of rise of maintenance costs versus the decision 

to go to new modernized technology. I believe that report noted 

that there are a range of factors that can drive maintenance costs, 

including salaries, but that report made no definitive linkage between what actually was the driver of those costs. 

So I would defer to our IT folks, happy to submit a question for 

the record. I do know from an IT standpoint at SSA, they had historically not had sound or rigorous business plans to justify why 

they are moving forward on expensive initiatives, on initiatives in 

general. 

Mr. GRIFFIN. So they are buying systems, spending money on 

systems that may or may not be part of a coherent plan. Is that 

what you are telling me? 

Mr. BERTONI. Exactly. They didn’t have sufficient business 

plans to support investment or metrics that could be used to prove 

how this initiative will have an impact on the area that it was 

being applied to. We have made recommendations that they do so, 

that they have a more rigorous business plan. That is a good thing. 

We also know that they haven’t historically updated their IT strategic plan and they haven’t adhered to it. Instead, they have tended to be bound by the shorter-term budget cycle. 

We have recommended that they continue to update this plan; 

that they abide by it; that they remain consistent with their longerterm goals. And hopefully that will result in a more strategic purchasing of the systems they need to make the process work better. 

We have those recommendations. I believe they have agreed, and 

what we are waiting to see is how they play out. 

Again, that is another team. I can get you a more definitive answer. If you want to submit that for the record, we can certainly 

do that. 

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be great. Thank you so much. Appreciate you. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you. 

Mr. Schock, do you care to question? 


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Mr. SCHOCK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you both 

to our witnesses. I think a lot of good comments have already been 

made, but particularly I want to follow up on a line of questions 

I had last year about the Social Security Administration’s ability 

to keep the public informed about the status of their accounts. And 

particularly, I know most of us who have been getting paper statements for a while, the administration, the agency made the call 

that because of the lack of funding they disbanded the paper statements. I know the President’s request, he asked for somewhere in 

the $100 million to $200 million to reinstitute the process of mailing those paper statements. I would be interested in you commenting on that request, whether you think that is a wise use of 

funds, number one. 

Number two, we have made significant investment in going online, to allow people if they register with SSI to be able to get their 

information online. However, I am always surprised back home 

how no one seems to know that they can get their information online or that Social Security Administration has disbanded the practice of giving their statements. I don’t know if they notified people 

that was being done or they just went ahead and did it. But I know 

that folks ask me all the time why they don’t get the statement 

anymore, and I tell them, but messengers of one aren’t all that effective. 

So I guess my question is, what do you think the best way is of 

moving forward? Obviously, if people don’t know what is in their 

account, that is problematic, and I am not sure the President’s request of $100 million to $200 million to go back to the 20th century 

of mailing statements, which is not in my opinion a long-term solution. Wouldn’t it be better to spend money to inform the public that 

they can go online and get their information, register online, so it 

is a much more efficient and cost-effective way to continue that 

communication moving forward? 

Mr. O’CARROLL. I will take the first part, Mr. Schock, on this 

one. And that one of the things that is of concern to us is, and it 

ties into what we have been talking about before with strategic 

planning for the agency, is really looking at electronic service. And 

that would be part of the, you know, the long-range strategic plan 

for the agency is to incorporate in how electronic service is going 

to replace the paper that we were talking about. And I agree with 

you that it does seem almost like a giant leap backwards to be focusing so much on paper statements at the same time when the 

SSA has released my SSA, which is pretty much a one-stop electronic location where any of your constituents can go, can register 

and get their information, the same one they would be getting from 

their paper statement. 

And I have got to say, this is something that you have to be 

checking with your constituents in terms of what is the public’s request for these paper statements or not. Because I think a lot of 

times it is because of the public request for paper statements that 

that keeps coming up as an issue on it. 

Mr. SCHOCK. Let me ask you, though, do you think that is because they are not aware? I mean, look in the 21st century, you 

go and open a bank account, you open a credit card account, you 

open anything now financial, they want your email address. BeVerDate Sep 11 2014 15:34 Jun 28, 2016 Jkt 089586 PO 00000 Frm 00058 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 I:\WAYS\OUT\89586.XXX 89586

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cause unless you specifically request your broker send you paper 

trades, your bank send you paper statements, everything is electronic. Because people move around. It is more expensive. And we 

all know why. 

And so part of me believes the reason why people are asking for 

the paper statements because that is all they know, and we have 

done a lousy job, if a job at all, of either collecting the information—I don’t know whether that should be employer responsibility 

or the request needs to be sent out—but I interject because I know 

that people are still asking for it. I just happen to believe that the 

same people who get their bank statements online and their broker 

statements online and in some cases pay their taxes online, or real 

estate taxes online, would prefer to just get their SSI information 

online as well. They just don’t know about it. 

Mr. O’CARROLL. I agree with you. I think, you know, papers is, 

you know, a sort of a step backwards on it. And I think that, you 

know, the publicizing of the electronic services of SSA is important. 

There are 21 services that they have. We feel that they should be 

expanding them dramatically. We are thinking up to and including, 

very supportive if we can get the security put into it, of mobile application, so that instead of getting that statement that you are 

talking about in the mail, that you could actually do it on a mobile 

device. 

But again, our concern with all of that is the security. It is keeping everyone’s information safe. And I have got to assure you that 

that is what we are looking at very closely with all of SSA’s programs, and looking very closely at my SSA just to make sure that 

the fraudsters aren’t trying to get your information electronically. 

The other one, too, goes back to why we disagree with paper is, 

is that that is a lot of information that you really don’t want in the 

mail anyway. So we would like to see it electronic. 

Mr. SCHOCK. Okay. Thank you. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you for that question. I agree with 

you, but, you know, there are still some people who don’t have access to computers, although you can get to them almost anywhere 

you need to. 

I thank you to our witnesses for your testimony, and I think we 

have had a good session on how Social Security needs to prepare 

for the future. And I am sure we will be talking to both of you in 

the future. 

I thank also our Members for being here. In the meantime, we 

look forward to the White House nominating a new Commissioner 

as quickly as possible. Americans want, need, and deserve no less. 

With that, the committee stands adjourned. Thank you. 

[Whereupon, at 10:36 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

[Public Submissions for the Record follows:] 

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American Association of University Women 


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Daniel Solomon 

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Social Security Works 


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Æ 


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