**Note: The output shown below is from the Communication**

**Ac cess Realtime Translation (CA** **RT) system used in the**  **Communications Subcommittee Meeting # 10**  **and is generally unedited.**  **T he C** **ART s yst** **em w as used to provide an**  **accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real**  **- time and available to the**  **public on the internet during the meeting. CA** **RT Operator: B** **everl y**  **Earl y** 
Rail Vehicles Access Advisory Committee Commun ications Subcommittee Meeting #10 U.S. Access Board Thursday, November 6, 2014

U.S. Access Board. T his is the U.S. Access Board. >> This is the U.S. Access Board. >> Marsha do I have you on the line? M arsha Mazz? >> Yes I am here I was unmuted >> Jim Pecht? Here. >> Okay. O kay. S o we are good we don't have everybody on the line right now but we have to start. This is Rosemarie wit h U.S. Access Board and I will go ahead and when you hear your name repeat yourname and the organization that you are with we are

going to do an audio check and will call at the same time. S o we have Marsha Mazz and Jim Pecht Paul Beatty? >> Yes. >> Nd a the line is good.
>> Melissa Shurland? >> This is Melissa Shurland from FRA.
>> and the line is good.
>> Melissa Anderson? >> Melissa Anderson Access Board staff.
>> the line is good.
>> Ed Hoff? >> Ed Hoff New Jersey Transit. >> Line is good. B lair Slau ghter? >> Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. >> Line is good. A ndrew Phillips? >> Yes. A ndrew Phillips.
>> and the line is good. >> David Martinez.
>> David Martinez Metra.
>> The line is good. J anice Lintz? >> Yes. >> Line is good.>> David Nelson?

>> Yes, David Nelson Amtrak.
>> Operator just in case we need any lines boosted during the calls and I will repeat the request on the chat box here. Paul bait tee I guess you are on the call so you are taking over? >> Correct. >> Okay. G o ahead Paul.
>> Okay. G ood afternoon this is Paul Beatty. Welcome to the meeting of the Communications Subcommittee. A s you know since anyone may participate in subcommittee discussions no time of public comment has been scheduled during the two

- hour call. S ince the CART system chat box is not available for subcommittee participants who are only using CART to participate in and you desire to raise a question or make a statement use E

- mail access RVAAC @ access

- board.gov. S hortly I will have to leave the call but Melis sa Anderson will be monitoring that box so she will communicate if anybody sends an E

- mail. W hen speaking out of line please remember to give your name, as a reminder this subcommittee's next meeting is scheduled for December 4th. Rose has introduced tho se on the line, so I am turning thecall over to Jim Pecht the staff lead for this

subcommittee. G o ahead Jim. >> JIM PECHT: Good afternoon, this is Jim Pecht. I am going to be running today's meeting. O ur subcommittee chair Terry Pacheco had another
c ommitment she could not get out of she sends apologies and regreets. S he won't be on the call today. I will be going with this. S ince we had

-- we are starting a little bit late I am going to skip going through the discussion of the October 2nd meeting we can go back to it later. We had a request from Melissa Shurland who wanted to discuss back up power for the variable message systems because she has a commitment she has to leave for in a bit I will turn it over to for whatever comments she wants to start with we can go from there.
>> Thank you very much, Melissa Shurland from FRA back in September

- august I spoke entirely with office

-- (inaudible). C an you hear me now? >> Yes we can, but your line goes in and out. >> Okay. S o, back in August/Septembe r time frame I

-- on the possibility of tying the variable messaging system into the emergency communication (inaudible) for their equipment. A nd the consensuswithin the FRA that there is no regulation that would

prevent the feature from being part of pa ssenger rail
car. T hey feel it's a good idea to have such a feature the only caution should the rail cars be separated from the locomotive during derailment or any incidents. T he cars that are behind the

-- separated from the locomotive may not be able to get the message. S o essentially any system that is a variable message system even though it may have power you probably have to consider a secondary

-- like a WI/FI system so that you can communicate to all cars whether or not they are connected by a tra in line. Which hard wire train line systems. A nd that's all I have to report from our end. I can take comments or questions. A nd other assignments to take back to the FRA as I said there is no regulation preventing this system from being part of the em ergency back up power system. A nd the FRA feels it would be a good feature to have.
>> This is David Nelson here. I f you could clarify for me about how the existing

-- existing emergency announcements are being done. S o, you are saying (inaudible) I wou ld assume would make the announcement through

-->> One moment I don't know where that's coming

from. >> Yes, so, currently this

-- I assume you are asking whether or not the

-- as I mentioned cars are separated the train line communication is severed wh ether or not you would be able to communicate with all cars currently that's not a feature that the cars that are in service have. I f there is a separation of the cable you will lose communication with the car severed. I n 2008

- 9 timeframe, I worked in th e research project that looked at the possibility of having a wireless back up communication system that whether the train line system was severed you would be able to communicate with all of the cars because of orientation that would have been based on a WI/FI. At that time technology was not mature enough to provide reliability. T here was additional problems. So, currently if there is any serving of the train line cable communication is lost to the cars that are severed. >> This is Jim Pecht. I am ass uming that means all communications are severed, and at that point that it's up to railroad staff to put out announcements or things like that individually to each car I amassuming?

>> Yes. S o this will require the staff in whatever the operating procedu res are to try to inform the customer of whatever is going on and this is probably going from car to car and providing that information. >> Okay. T his is David Nelson again. S o, the new next generation standards that the PRIIA 305 the train sets not part of the ADA working group did they update that regulation concerning WI/FI in order to do the communication from one car to the next? >> Um, in terms of the PRIIA specifications there is nothing in the specifications currently with communication that is do esn't have a WI/FI back up system. A nd in terms of the California cars that are currently under procurement they will be doing a sort of a change order to their contract to provide their communication system that would allow for dual mode rail messaging s ystem on the trains to dynamically change the information that they send to the passengers. T hat is going to be a contract out of the PRIIA services in California.
>> So, this is David Nelson you are saying FRA will have to develop a new regulation or new standard for future cars maybe even for existing cars to start tohave a back up WI/FI?

>> As I said, we considered that back in 2008

- 9 timeframe using the railroad's safety advisory group the RVAAC process. At that time the technology was not sufficient ly reliable in order to guarantee that we will be able to speak to the cars that are severed from the train. S o, that idea was shelved. I can't speak whether or not that was included in the

-- in an action item for future rulemaking. B ut it is something that we have considered before.
>> But it hasn't been followed up since or lately. >> No, it has not.
>> Okay. T hank you. >> Any questions? >> This is Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. S o, if I understand what we are talking about, there is two things: O ne is that any communication system should be backed up and independently powered and in case there is a loss getting power from the locomotive j ust as we have back up power for emergency lighting. A nd that makes a lot of sense. You can have multiple conditions, situations where you could lose power

-- let's see how I say that there is provision for emergency lighting in new vehicles sothat if t he

-- if the car derails the train derails and the

batteries are attorney away or disabled that there is some level of lighting left in the car by discrete self contained power units, battery power units. S o it would seem to make sense maybe we want to go a little further and talk about the communication system assuming that the train is not

-- it's just derailed and maybe suffered damage, capacity and everything works because if we are talking about some of the other emergency communication devices, they have to be powered as well. B eyond just the normal PA and VMS system. B ut I could imagine that trying to have communication between cars scattered all over a field in the derailment would be impossible one of the challenges has to be if you are communicating wirelessly within a train, is there spill over to adjacent trains within a system and those kind of things so

-- because you are not talking about just wireless Internet systems which is you know a sort of general portal now you are talking about disc rete information that is particular to a train that you could potentially spill over to other trains or have other interference that could render that less useful. >> Yes, and that's one of the issues that we raninto during your research is how do you kee p it to just

that one particular train and have it answer back to you. I t was a little bit complicated to accomplish. I just wanted to clarify that the emergency communication system can be reviewed as a localized system it's a car to car basis. S o the communication it's not the engineer in the locomotive talking on the

-- using the system and all the cars can hear. You have to be in that one hear to actually mute the emergency communication system.
>> Right, Melissa, this is Blair from Amtrak. N ot to belabor the point but in a situation like this maybe there is sanity in going back in time and having the emergency communications via the railroad's radio system. A nd because there is not

-- there is not going to be an individual with a radio in every ca r all the time. A nd in some systems there may only be an engineer and conductor for multiple cars. M aybe there is some logical way of taking that sort of old fashioned radio technology for emergencies, and having

-- it could be a particular challenge that the railroad has on its system that you would go to and that would broadcast emergency messages to people within the train. A nd then that could come from theconductor or the engineer or the

-- you know

whoever else is surviving the incident, communicat e within that to each car and then they could broadcast through the discrete self powered on board communications. >> That's an idea to consider thank you for that. (inaudible) we will see what

-- >> It could be a nice marrying of old technology with new to get the job done.
>> and the reliability of the radio systems because those systems are pretty robust.
>> Yes they are very robust.
>> This is David Nelson Blair if you could clarify for me about the radio thing, the

-- sometimes old technology is the b est. S o, would they be able to do data transmission through radiofrequency or is it going to be a voice only type of system? >> This is Blair. I would think that

-- I mean I am no electronic person by any means I don't

-- I would expect that initially do ing the voice only would be very easy to do. I think in an emergency situation if you are trying to transmit an emergency message that's different from canned messages and things, that may not be very practical because the place where thekeyboard or devi ce is that lets you transmit that

message clarity may very well be destroyed. O r inaccessible at that point. S o, I would say certainly the voice, voice recognition where it really works really well. You know, that would be an easy step to do that. B ut I think as you know, from your experience, that the voice recognition and technologies

-- >> This is Marsha Mazz. I have a question it sounds to me like we are kind of dealing with two different problems. A nd I think Jim kind of alluded to that earlier. You have the situation when communication for anybody on the train can be disrupted that's not really an accessibility issue everybody is in the

-- having a problem at that point. So, by using the radio and having voice communications you wind up still h aving inaccessibility issue inaccessibility problem in that you don't have any kind of individual communication to compliment it. W ith the understanding that the speech to text is not there yet for that. D oes it sum it up? I s that where we are at? >> Ma rsha, this is Blair. I think there is another part and I think this is more what Melissa

-- Melissawas alluding to is that the communication system that

includes voice and visual you know information, needs to have a back up power supply as a key feature so it doesn't. I f you simply lose train power, regular power that that system will still function assuming that the train is intact. S o that's one piece of it that seems completely logical to tack that on to emergency or some other discrete uninterrupti ble power source. >> I understand that. I t's when the train is not in

-- i was trying to understand what problem we are trying to solve. W hether we are trying to solve the general problem for everybody or we have an accessibility solution on when the train is not intact. >> When the train is not intact then yes it becomes interest there is an issue. B ut the issue right now is for everyone. R ight now there is
no
-- the only communication once a train breaks up or becomes uncoupled and the cabling is broken is, you know, s or maybe laying in different places, the only communication that's left at that point is within the railroad's radio system between the engineer and conductors. A nd you know at that point they have to go into their emergency mode of doing what they are trained to do in emergencies. S o, that's all that's leftat that point. T here is no other communication

system left. >> Blair this is Jim basically what you are describing is a situation where you have radio communication between staff. You don't

-- you are not really sending radio communications to the

-- to passengers in a separate car someplace is that correct? >> That's correct yes.
>> So, it's still up to staff to sort of take command and herd people and give them information rather t han

-- we are not really sending communications via radio to the passengers correct? >> That's correct Jim. B ut the other point that I was making was

-- maybe this addresses part of it from an accessibility standpoint or maybe something that the FRA wants to take back into RSAC and discuss again is you could conceivably have joined with the radio system receivers in the cars that are tied into the PA system that would let, let's say, an engineer or conductor dial to a channel, use a number of key flashes l ike they use to light the airports and those things and make an announcement that is in fact

-- or broadcast into each car. B ecause you don'thave

-- you typically don't have enough employees to

have someone in every car you are never guaranteed they are always there so that could be one thing that you
-- you wouldn't have the visual system you would only a voice, that's really, you know, the committee want to take that? I s that something that Melissa maybe wants to take back to the FRA consideration. I suppose you could say we recommend that the FRA takes this up, or we could make the more in

- depth recommendation themself.
>> I would think

-- this is Marsha. I guess, you know, I would like to see

-- have discussion with the FRA about where we drew the l ines between accessibility requirement and a general safety requirement because the thought here is FRA is responsible for the general safety for sure. A nd accessibility is piggybacking on that. >> This is David Nelson here. S o, thank you for pointing th at out. T hat was Marsha, regarding safety and accessibility. S o, this is a big "if" I don't know if Andrew Phillips want to chime in whether he disagrees or agrees with me. B ut apparently there is no way to send a visual message data through a radiofreq uency so if the LED site itself, is there a way to say,something of the nature of help is on the way, when

there is disruption like that, that would be activated only when signals are sent to (inaudible) and (inaudible) can acknowledge it and send a messa ge back that's where that kind of message would alert? >> This is Janice Schacter Lintz I have a question. I am not clear what

-- what basis are we making this decision that the message

-- >> I wasn't quite finished with my comment.
>> I'm sorry I apologi ze I thought you had finished. >> Um, so, I think that that is something if that was a possibility or some type of access solution it could be done. A nd that way it could kind of be two birds with one stone. T here could be a message after a disruption a message would be sent automatically to SENAC and then in turn they could send a message through the message board saying help is on the way. Obviously that might be a situation where the technology isn't there. B ut if the technology was to come up maybe that is something that could be brought in that is just kind of my comment, I am done. >> Sorry I apologize. T his is Janice again. M yconcerns are when we talk about things could we not

use abbreviations because not all of us know what SENAC FRA is if we said it a couple of times it's helpful for those of us not in the industry to understand who we are talking about. B ut the other issue is I am not sure that technology is not there because we
are
-- you are sitting on city buses they are able to send tec hnology and signals on the new visual displays. A nd maybe sending a WI/FI signal to the display. B ut I think any time you are putting people with hearing loss dependent on other people and relying on people I have personally been on a train, in a mini di saster where it was delayed 13 hours because of snow. A nd I could hear and I could not get any information from any conductor who was dealing with crisis to answer my questions or anyone's questions. So, I think when we keep putting people with disabilit ies dependent on other people because it seems like they should be able to help, they can't. They are too busy. Even when there is not a disaster there are too many instances when I have asked a question and the person doesn't know doesn't care and just ignores the question. >> This is Andrew speaking, I very much agreewith what Janice and David have already said I would

like to add that if we are able to send a message to someone's smartphone through telephone wireless network, I don't see why you can't set up a receptor in the rail vehicles that would then connect to an LED screen to their wireless network and when they have an emergency you could send a text message to the LED screen. A nd then also notify people not only those who are deaf and hard of hearing but those who are hearing on the train that you know telling them help is on the way. Explaining about what is going
on. G iving important information. I know a lot of times when I am riding on the train, with people that are hearing, you know, they will have announcements on the PA system. A nd oftentimes a hearing person that I am traveling with they oftentimes they can't understand it. T hey want the visual information too. So my point is, if you could send a text message from one state to an other state through telephone through the telephone network why not just hookup an LED screen in the train car to do the same network and you know, a remote operator who works for the train company could then send that message, especially if the driver is not able to.>> This is David Nelson. I wanted to clarify one

thing real quick. B lair had raised a question

-- I'm sorry Blair I'm sorry made a question about what if we lose any type of back up battery of power, et cetera. I know currently our cars have their own lights there is a built in battery that might last for a short

- term and so that's what I was talking about. W hat if our visual messaging just lost the connection to the back up battery I would think that maybe we could have some type of short

- term maybe 30

- minute life cycle where it would be able to stay up for 30 minutes after disconnecting from the power. Does that make sense? >> This is Melissa Shurland. T hat was the sense of the initial question I took back to the FRA currently once you lose power from a car as an individual (inaudible) communication in the system and the last minute on the PA system you are allowed to have ability to talk the last 15 minutes of the 90

- minute period. S o that was the discussion with whether or not we could tie the VMS system into that back up power system. >> Hi this is Janice Lintz again. I don't know what the FRA is and I apologize maybe I should could weplease not use initials? O r lingo from industry

because there are many of us on the car that aren't. But I am still confused I agree with Andrew. I think I don't think I explained it clearly. I don't understand if we have text devices and I ca n get text E

- mails from the airlines about delays when I am on the TARMAC why I can't get the same one on the smartphone and why even that text can each automatically go to a board if they can text it to the phone can't you make the board tie into a phone? I don't know how to do things like that but other people would. M ake the board on the train like a giant smartphone so it receives texts automatically. A nd then you don't have to worry about someone inputting. You should be able to link the two togeth er. I n terms of back up batteries there has to be back up something for lighting because of an emergency you have the little light strips on the floor. S o, wouldn't this be the same? I tout it uses that much energy again I am not a technical person.
>> Janice FRA stands for Federal Railroad Administration. T he FAA Federal Aviation Administration FRA is responsible for all of the regulations within the railroads industry.>> That's great. I think there is too many letters

flying around like alphabet sou p. S o for some of us who are unfamiliar if we could just say things out just so that you know it doesn't become an assumption that everyone understands it and sometimes people are uncomfortable saying what they don't know I clearly have no qualms about do ing this. >> This is Melissa Shurland before I leave the call I want to give you reasons the wireless system considered back in 2000

-- there was an issue with using that on the locomotive. O ne of the issues is once you make a train up you have a locomoti ve or two or three locomotives and then you have the passenger cars the issue is once you have the train the train consist is changed along the route and Blair and David can speak to this you have electrical locomotive it changes to December sill when you make changes to the system communication is lost between the lead locomotive and the trailing cars when you go into tunnels you may lose the communication system with the wireless system. These are some of the issues we saw when we looked at possibly havi ng a wireless system to provide back up communication for

-- for communication in caseof emergencies. A nother issue is how to initialize the

wireless system once on a daily basis as the trains are made up and they go out on the route as you finish change in the railroad yard et cetera. I t could be dynamic some of the changes if we say we use our cell phone and get information about our flight, the railroad it's different from that technology may have improved the last five years there are issues tunnels moving signals and as we discussed earlier any of the equipment on the train is damaged, then how do we communicate with that car even a wireless system. We are going to have to have some type of antenna and routing and receiver on each car to receive the information appeared relay is to the video messaging system and if those are damaged, we are pretty much right back at square one. I think it's something that I could definitely take back for consideration now with new technology. A nd any knowledge that we have. But it may not be as simple as making a phone call.
>> This is Janice Lintz. I don't know what RSAT is we are talking about the evaluated in 2009 almost six years ago. I n that time we have added a wireless Internet to trains which didn't previ ously exist. S o this is about keeping up with technology on allaspects of the train including people with disabilities.

I'm sorry whoever RSAT everybody they need to, as technology improves, then it has to be upgraded for all including people with disab ilities and back up systems. A nd so I am I'm sorry, I don't find that as an acceptable answer saying you evaluated something six years ago. S ix years ago there was no wireless Internet on Amtrak. T hat seems like a ridiculous
answer. I hate to be so poi nted. T hat just seems ridiculous. Technology is evolving so quickly. I think things have to be evaluated and a regular basis and things have to be added so if you are telling me you are going through a tunnel then

-- somehow Washington, DC is able to re ceive cell signals in their trains but

-- >> This is Marsha. 1 r excuse me for interrupted I think Melissa was just telling us by way of history not by way of saying we have studied it and we are done. I think that in fact it

-- she was offering exactly what you are suggesting which is to take this issue back and reinvigorate it with the appropriate people at the Federal Railroad Administration. D id I get that right Melissa? >> Marsha, thank you. T hat is correct. A nd thatis the intent if we can, as yo u say reinvigorate the

study with new technology that we have now. To see if ear able to communicate in all circumstances.
>> Marsha I appreciate you clarifying that because it was not coming off that way to me. A nd it sounded like we did this six years ago and it can be done

-- you know, so I am glad that that is what was intended I just misunderstanding it. B ut again I need to reiterate not use initials Melissa I don't know what the initials are. >> Maybe you can

-- >> I don't know what it is. >> Okay. This is Melissa I have to jump off the call if there are other questions or comments please feel free to send me an E

- mail and I will definitely check about prior research and see what can be done to update it. >> What were the initials that you just men tioned you mentioned two different sets. RAST and RAC. >> It's rail safety advisory committee RSAC. >> Thank you. >> This is Blair from Amtrak. I think it's important that we come back to the

-- because we talked about multiple things we come back to the keyfeatures. A nd that would be you know, if a train is

equipped whether it's a subway or light rail or inner

- city or whatever it might be if it's equipped with the communication system that is dependent on electric power unless it's a string and two sou p cans it's going to have electric power that system including a visual system needs to have back up power for you know some reasonable amount of time. A nd indication is maybe the time may already be defined elsewhere within the industries, you know, in 3 0 minutes or 60 minutes or a multiple of hours I am not
sure. S o, this is that aspect. S o, the system, whatever it is, can't be subject to being lost because you lose power. A nd so that

-- that's one section I would mention. T he other is in an emergency situation, how do you maintain communication within the train when in fact it may no longer be a train but separate cars laying about. I t's easy for those of us that live on the northeast corridor and heavily urbanized areas to think about wireless. R i ght now we have trains that go into the mountains and you won't have cell service for hours at a time. I t's just suddenly the cell phone is a game machine it's useless. S o, we do have to keep

-- there are somethings right now and for the foreseeable fut ure you

could have all the technology in the world if you can't bunch can be

-- punch the signal for a mountain it won't work. You have to think about the various scenarios. S ome things will work well in some areas but if we come back to and define maybe i n very broad terms what we want to achieve, and not try to solve the technological problems, then that becomes something that we can begin to get our hands and heads around. To make the most of this. A nd have something that reliable and consistent day in and day out so that people will

-- can trust and rely on the system to give them the information that they need. >> This is Frank from the FRA

-- >> Hi, this is Andrew speaking. I wanted to say that I completely understand where Blair is coming from. A n d I too want a reliable, good well running system that can give important emergency information to those that are deaf and hard of hearing. T hose passengers. A s well as hearing passengers. T hrough visual means. I know that maybe we have some technology limitations, but I feel confident that we can come up with a way to satisfy the technology needs in almost all situations. O fcourse we may have a few situations where it's not

perfect. B ut to be perfectly honest I often approach a lot of situations in my advocacy work where I recognize that some situations may not work. However, I don't allow that to prevent us from not doing anything. Agood example is text to 911. Some of you may be aware that the FCC is not requiring all wireless carriers the phon e companies to support text to 911. H owever, in many areas, in fact most of our country, it doesn't work. We can't text to 911. H owever, I hope with what we have in place, we can build on that. H ere we are going to come up with, you know, we come up wi th a perfect situation? Maybe not. B ut I hope that we come up with a good reliable system that future generations can build on our technology. O ur technology has changed so much in the past six years that I feel confident that technology will be ahead o f us as we work on this recommendation. >> This is Blair from Amtrak. A ndrew, you are correct. I mean, there is

-- there have been technology is changing faster than we can think about it. Part of what holds us back today the products that are getting m ade and handed to us are alreadyobsolete by the time they are in production. We have

had

-- we have been able to solve tremendous technological problems by using smartphones for fare collection and things like that at Amtrak. We know in a split second i f a passenger didn't get on in the station we can tell you the manifest of the people on the train. S o, again, I think that's why it's critical rather than necessarily solving the technological problems we try to define what it is that we want to achieve, and at the rate that

-- that the regulations and things change the technology may catch up and actually exceed what it needs to be to achieve what we are talking about. H opefully in the near future. >> This is Frank from the MTA. J ust to chime in on thi s a little bit. I t seems like we are getting a little disjointed or distracted about exactly what the comments were and where we started from. R ight now there is a regulation which requires you to have and Melissa mentioned it, on board communication for a period of time as well as emergency lighting. The on board communication applies to the PA. I f we want to do something to address the accessibility issue and VMS is what's going to provide the accessibility, then I think what we should berecommending is that the VMS system be included in

the requirements for the PA and the time that's currently listed there. T he conditions

-- the

-- that should handle normal conditions it should handle most emergency conditions or those conditions when you lose electric al power you will be covered by a back up battery you will see it via the VMS. T he other conditions where you have a broken communication system from car to car, I think that's rather extreme. And there is a lot of things that are going to be happening t o the equipment outside of losing communication from car to car that may prohibit you from using whatever is op the car anyhow. S o, I think the focus we could use, I think, Marsha mentioned it before, focus on what is currently regulated an making sure th ere is accessibility provided for what we are currently have, and then let the FRA work on the other conditions which aren't covered by them yet. So, the first step would be to make sure that the emergency communication system as currently written include s the VMS system on battery back up then we have achieved a large amount of what we are talking about for the last year. >> I definitely agree that we need to focus on what wewant to see and that I believe that technology experts will

figure out how to a chieve what we want to see (Andrew.) >> We might have lost our bridge. >> It sounded like we lost a lot of folks >> Would you like me to open you the Rose Marie's line. >> Hello this is Rosemarie.
>> Are you there? >> Her line is open. >> This is Janice Lintz. I agree with what Frank said I think that's a good way to proceed >> Yes, Rose Marie is here is there a question?
>> The operator was asking for you. >> I believe they wanted your line opened I opened up the line >> Was there a qu estion for me then I did have my line muted I was moving around here in the conference room. And I am getting dead air I just >> This is Blair from Amtrak can you guys hear me? T his is Frank I can hear you fine >> It sounds like there are some people mis sing but maybe not everybody >> It sounded like we jettisoned a group of folks it got quiet all of a sudden.
>> I disagree with that. I said I agree I had myself onmute I probably didn't realize I was on mute.

(LAUGHTER)
>> The phone line cleared up. I don't think we lost anybody else.
>> It's just working correctly now. >> I think we are all on mute and didn't have anything to say that's why it was quiet. >> That's unusual for this group we should mark that down. (LAUGHTER) >> Blair again. S o, I will just ask the question to Jim, have you captured do you feel like you captured the meat and potatoes of the discussion? >> I think so. I think

-- my Guthrie action is basically you have got emergency situations where you have power or at least back up power is available. I n that situation the VMS and the PA system should be working, should be accessible. Should be doing their job. T hen you have these other situations where you have a catastrophic incident where, to me, all bets are off in that sit uation. I f you have got
car
-- cars laying on their side on the side of the rail line, I mean that's a

-- issue from what we are talking about here mostly. M ostly what we are talking about there is a

-- there is a mechanical problem with the vehicle itself, thatneeds

-- that it can't move. O r there is a problem with the

line you are having to wait for. O r something like that, that people need to be informed about. A nd that we are saying that that needs to be accessible. I s that about capture where we a re going? >> I think that's exactly right Jim. T hat's what I was trying to say. You know, the focus should be making sure that we have access for the available systems that we have. Add the

-- and the only thing missing from the communication system rig ht now as written it only talks about the PA it doesn't say anything about VMS that's the key that needs to be added. >> This is Blair. A long those lines when we start looking at the more catastrophic situations, I think that that's

-- that's something th at Melissa alluded to they started looking at and found that the technology at the moment six years ago want there. T hat's why I mentioned maybe there needs to be melding of old radio technology and something more exotic today to work. I think those thin gs can be made to work. I think that one of the things that I hear and it seems to be systemic problem in our industry. A mtrak is absolutely guilty of it. T hat is, you can be in a nonlife threatening situation, a situation that isn't emergency that can become or feel like an emergencybecause you are not getting information. A nd that spills

over to

-- to the hearing as well as hard of hearing. A nd it may be that, again, reaching back to the FRA or the FTA that that is something they could pick up. T he re are requirements within the rail industry for other things, you know, you can't have a train worked

-- parked on a crossing for a certain amount of time. You have to have an emergency plan. S o, maybe it's not unreasonable that there needs to be from t he regulatory side of the railroads, something that says, you know, you sit for a certain amount of minutes you have got to update the passengers. You would think that that is common sense it doesn't always go with the railroads. B ut that's not

-- I don' t know that that is within

-- because as Chris always said we are talking about the things this you can

-- if you shake the car the things fall out. O bviously the VMS the PA the

-- all of that stuff counts. B ut I think if the railroads took care of that and solve a lot of their problem right off the bat. >> Jim I have a question with that

-- >> This is Marsha. You said that they have to have an emergency plan. I s there a standard for that emergency plan or guidance for that emergency plan that goes to a ll companies. I know for buildings for example we have code requirements.>> Marsha, I believe it's in

--

>> 16 whatever it is.
>> I believe it's 49 CFR 238 Frank each railroad has to issue an emergency preparedness plan that takes into account evacuating passengers and all of those things from disabled trains? >> Interesting because it seems to me that that may

-- if that is

-- if there is a part of a standard or comment standard for the plan itself, members of the committee may want to take a look at that standard and see if it adequately addresses the needs of people with disabilities. N ot for this advisory committee it does seem like something worthwhile to do.
>> This is Frank again. T he section I was talking about with respect to the emergency

-- em ergency lighting I don't know if Melissa mentioned it before it is not 238. I t's 238

-#

- 1 is emergency communications section. T hat's one specific where we can make a recommendation VMS be included as part of the PA system. >> This is Jim I just wanted t o go back to one thing that Blair alluded to I think is important. W hat this guideline is going to be doing is basically the hardware. I can't

-- the guidelines can't force the industry to make an announcement I can't tell the industry what announcements they have tomake and what they can't make. I can say when they make

an announcement it has to be accessible that's what we need to look at. I n other words, if the train has an emergency, they choose not to tell the passengers anything, that's not somet hing that this guideline is going to be able to deal with. T hat's an operational policy issue that maybe the DOTs regs need to look at but not the stuff from us.
>> This is Janice Lintz, we want whatever announcement is being made to the passengers is bot h visual and then through an induction loop.
>> and we have that in our

-- in the bag already that's already in the bag as far as what the committee wants to present to the full committee as a requirement. A ny time that you make any kind o f announcement it has to be in audible form it has to be visual form it

-- form it has to be where the PA system is used it has to have a loop system at. That's already

-- >> Perfect, then we are happy.
>> This is David Nelson here. S o, Jim raised a comm ent about the messaging. I think instead of saying or instead of putting down what the language needs to be used in the guideline, I think we should be putting down suggestions that the FRA needs to review every

-- every operating procedures because in ou r operating procedures manual wehave language in there on what should be said to the

passengers. S o, I would like to see that FRA should review that Andraea

-- on an annual basis to make sure that the messages are current and accurate. T he reason why I am bringing this up is because the FAA the Federal Aviation Administration requires to review all flight safety manuals on Andraea newly basis for every single airline. I f an airline wants to change something in the middle of the year the FAA has to approve it. W hich I why I think we should have language in the guidelines saying the FAA federal

-- FRA Federal Railroad Administration has to review the procedures on Andraea newly basis and also review any revised requests by the operations. >> Again, this i s Jim that's outside the purview of the committee. I think you are welcome to sort of get together and I think one of the things on the list here is possible volunteers for potential listed of recommendations to DOT and FRA with regards to things that they need to look at in their regulation. T hat really aren't covered by the standard or the guidelines. A nd if you are volunteering to start that list, thank you. O therwise, I think we need to sort of move on if we are done with this issue. >> Jim, you are right. T hank you for reminding me, I'm sorry. S ometimes I get off track. I think too big.(LAUGHTER)

>> Any other discussions about back up power? W hich is where we were to begin with. A ll right. H earing none, what's the world look like, do you want to go back through the brief discussion of the October meeting stuff or do you want to go with some of the new things that we need to look at down the road? H earing no comments

-- >> This is Andrew no, no, no this is Andrew here I want to let you know at the last meeting, I was contacted

-- the gentleman's name is Christian the last Vogler, and he is a researcher at Gallaudet University. A nd is a major in engineering technology and so forth. I was wanting him to get involved with our call here to ki nd of give you some perspective in regards to the technology, in regards to the visual communication that is available out there. A nd he was not able to join in on the call today, so

-- but he was saying that he was wanting to go ahead and join our Decemb er 4th call and join in on that. S o, yes, and he wanted to do that at the December 4th meeting if he could go ahead and participate in the December meeting that way you have the opportunity to ask different questions with regard to visual communication ac cess he is really on the cutting edge in regards to that area. A nd so, you know, basically trying to confirm to have him there.>> He is more than welcome to join the discussion for

sure. >> Okay. T hank you. >> Okay. A nything else from anybody on the co mmittee? I really hate the way it goes dead silence it sounds like the call has just stopped. O kay. I have got a couple of things on my list with regards to questions about how you want to proceed. W ith regards to signage, in the current standard the o nly place the international symbol of accessibility ISA is required is on the outside of vehicles that are quote accessible. T hat's the only place that the ISA is required.
>> This is Janice Lintz, my concern which I have mentioned before our meeting, is the international symbol of access is a wheelchair which doesn't tell anyone that there is captioning which is the visual system if or induction loop we need to make sure that the appropriate specific symbols are included. A nd the perfect example of why t his is, is I sent around to the committee

-- I believe I sent around to the committee an issue we recently had not related to rail but taxi where the TLC installed an induction loop on the entire fleet of taxis in New York and 3% of the taxis about 300 tax is without the symbol, nobody knows the induction loop is in the taxi there is no stories on it. N o one except my family anyone who worked on the project is aware of the access.And because the induction loop is invisible wires you can't

see them. I t's not like you can physically see a ramp. I t will be completely forgotten. A nd now, the TLC is scrambling to fix it it's a disaster because it turns out in this project it has to do with pricing issue who bears the cost of the fine Nissan or the taxi on ne rves it's a disaster. We need to learn from this experience. B ut it has to have the specific symbols and not the

-- you know the international symbol was great at one point. B ut it doesn't fit visual impairments and doesn't fit hearing loss. I t does fi t wheelchair access. >> You are referring to the international symbol of hearing loss T

- coil.
>> I was referring to the wheelchair symbol. >> for the loop.
>> if we are talking because that's technically the international symbol of access for some bizarre reason if we are talking even hearing loss, there are different symbols for different types of access. I f for example you are talking visual alert, and let's say it's captioning, which is can at that mount to captioning if you have to turn on the captioni ng you would

-- that would be considered closed captioning two C's if it's always there OC open captioning. I f it's assistive listening system where it's not an induction loop it's ear with an I. I f it's induction loop it's induction loop with a slashthro ugh the T. I will be the first to admit these symbols are

ridiculous many similar and most people outside of the hearing loss world don't understand the and mistakes are made repeatedly throughout. I want to make sure when we are discussing the symbol we are always for induction loop we are always talking with the ear with the slash with a T. Whether we agree that that is a good or bad simple it's irrelevant that's the international symbol for induction loop there is a debate whether it's a good simple w hether it should be slash or dot. B ut I wanted to make sure we are clear we are discussing that symbol versus the wheelchair symbol. >> Right. F or the this is Jim. F or the loop system we are requiring the loop system I am assuming that you are advocatin g to require that symbol as well to let people know the loop system is present correct? >> Yes. W hat I would recommend is put it on the outside of the car so people know to get into that specific car. A nd then I had sent around a photo a while ago becaus e the problem is you don't know if there is an announcement if you can't hear the announcement. T here was similar in Switzerland when the announcement is made they

-- I may not be describing it properly, but it was like a clear plexiglass they used a spea ker. W hen this was drawn on topof the clear plexiglass. W hen announcement was made

there was light going on. I would recommend doing a speaker picture to do ear with a T on the same type of light so it indicates when there is an announcement and that t he T

- coil is now activated. A nd that people should activate their T

- coils. We sent that around a while ago. T he picture is the way I just described it.
>> This is Jim again let me did a question of the railroad folks. W hen you have cars together and yo u have PA systems is there ever a condition where there isn't a car with a PA system? >> This is Blair from Amtrak. Every occupied passenger car has a PA system. I n it. I f there is a problem with the system, and there are problems with the systems from time to time, it's usually localized to a vehicle. S o, yeah, every occupied car even baggage cars I think have them because the crew may communicate within the train with the PA.
>> Frank how about your systems? >> As far as Long Island goes yeah we have all PAs in the car I am pretty sure Metra is the same I am not 100% sure about the TA

-- PA but you have to have PA system to communicate with passengers. I f you are making station announcements you have PA I am not 100% sure but I am sure TA Metro Long I sland north all do.>> the reason I am asking this question is all of the cars

have the PA system wouldn't it be better to have it on the inside of the car? B ecause putting it on the outside of the car could tell you every car has one. I mean it's

-- doe s it make it difference it has to be inside or outside? >> I think it should be Beth. B ecause I think one

-- you have an inside you may notice it when you are going in. And the second is we need to make sure we can put induction loop in every car if we a re going there that's great I am not sure we are going to be there. B ut it does indicate to people and tells people that it's available. B ecomes awareness campaign. S o, that you are aware of it when you see it going by in your town, the train. You migh t not ever get on the train, if you think you can't hear. I t becomes almost a public awareness campaign beneficial to the trains themselves to get more passengers with hearing loss actually on the train. >> This is Blair from Amtrak. I think

-- there is some logic in having whatever accessibility features are included because right now, bought a brand new car it came clever delivered with the hearing coil system. T he hearing loop system. A nd an active visual messaging system, it might be worthwhile if t hat car is going to be coupled with other vehicles to Janice' point that you have the internationalsymbol but you also have the other, so that I may need to go

to the car that I know has the T

- coil but it may be coupled to one without one. S o, I think th ere is some logic there. Hopefully, you know, as time progresses maybe there is some other yet to be determined accessibility symbol that you know it's there you know it's fully equipped with all of the features and so we don't need lots of little sticker s. B ut as far as inside the train, having some visual indicator that lets you know, that, hey, the PA systems is making an announcement, if it's part of

-- it could be part of the visual messaging system when that goes active there is a corner of the scre en that lights up or shows you a display or it could be something that's has a light. Perhaps if someone simply is using a hearing aid, they don't have anything more exotic than that they have it turned down if the light goes on they might turn their hear ing aid up or miss something. I don't know how specific we want the internal indicator to be as to what technology is now available and working. B ut I think an indicator of some sort makes perfect sense.
>> Blair, that's a really good point. You are rig ht if we are coupling different cars together I hadn't thought about looking up

-- this way we will be able to keep track which cars have the loop and which don't. R ight. T here is going to be a point where you bring in different cars. You know,adds car s in and out of service some will have loop some

won't. I ndicator some of my issues trying to keep the number of signage down so it doesn't become a patchwork quilt internally of lines

-- signs priority people with visual impairments need them at a place where they could punch them. W here people with hearing loss don't have the same issue. T hat's why putting the symbol on the light as it's lit up it kind of saves space and communicate at the same time activate your T

- coil we are making an announcement. You have a two for one deal here. >> This is Frank let me make a quick comment indication that a comment is made is the VMS sign. I n other words, you are not going to be getting a hearing loop message unless it comes up on the VMS sign. I think it may be a good idea to have an indication that there is a hearing loop but I don't think it's necessary to have an additional light just to indicate that a message is coming when there is already an indication that the message is coming we want to keep down the a mount of indicators in the car you seen from the presentation we have more than decals and signage in the cars as it is now not all are necessary. We should limit it to necessary signs and indicators. I think indication of a message is there in the visua l sign.
>> Frank you may realize that because you are comingfrom it at engineer and you know what you are put in the car

and you are aware of this. We see this a lot on building plans with architects. W here they know what they put in. That's not people with hearing loss are not aware. T hey don't know that just because there is an indication of the loop outside symbol first of all they are rushing to get in the car they may not notice it on the outside or when they are sitting in the car they finally pu t the bags coat everything and they are sitting there they see it because there may have been somebody blocking it on the outside. We saw there is a museum downtown I can't disclose the name but they have the loop in the museum. T he sign is only on the way finder when you walk in. N ot only does no one know the loops are throughout the museum which is like incredible and unbelievable, but staff doesn't even know they exist. Because unless you see that flashing symbol as you rush into the museum when you are excited to get in, you don't see it when you are actually at the point of needing it. S o, you have to think of like as a person who doesn't have all of this information. I sn't on the committee. N o one will know. By putting the symbols on the light indicating this is sound, maybe will know. I t sounds obvious for people with hearing loss you can't tell what you can't hear. You might see the visual, but that won't tell you there is actually life. I f youcan't hear you may think there is only visual. I have seen

the reverse too. T here can be a video let's say in a museum that has no sound, and you see people pressing their ears next to the video and you need to literally put a symbol up showing a speaker with a slash indicating no sound they don't k now there is no sound they think it's because they can't hear it. We need to have redundancy I think putting the light up that independent indicates this is sound to everyone there is an announcement and putting the symbol over it follows it. C learly, th ey have thought about it they thought it was important to have an indication and a light going on when there is sound. I t's like overlay instead of speaker with the ear symbol we have a two for one deal.
>> This is Blair from Amtrak. We have situations o n our trains where there is the scrolling message sign that involves no sound at all. S o I could see where if we

-- if we then had a visual message system for you know announcements that occur and we are still using the visual just the visual sign or the vi sual scrolling sign that's just you know spewing information endlessly until the PA announcement breaks in, that immediate message, I could see where you have the condition Janice described, and maybe either there should be
some
-- some delineation in the VMS if it's on the sign or a separate twice with certainly with the electronics today youcould have a symbol could pop up so that you know if not

the same boring scrolling sign it's now something that you need to tune into. I could see where that could b e a valuable thing.
>> Blair

-- >> You know, Blair that's a great idea. You know what a another way to do it on the scrolling VMS sign you could put the ear with the T on it.
>> That's a possibility. Let me ask a quick question: I don't think that you could have Blair a scrolling sign that's not having accompanied by audio message. A nd meet the requirements that were outlined. W hy would you only be providing the information in one means? >> Well, what you

-- typically this is Blair again. W hat you will find is the information that's on the scrolling signs is something that's already been announced or will be announced it's a repetitive thing. B ut the sign continues to go. Yo u say next station Washington, DC. Well the PA announcement is also been made. T he problem is right now they are not directly connected. S o, they don't necessarily occur at exactly the same time. B ut I think what we are talking about now is that I thin k there is a PA announcement going on that is going to kick in and all be happening at
once. M aybe the scrolling sign as a

-- an informationendless information device has to go away. We may

regulate ourselves out of that so it's just a blank sign until there is something being communicated specifically and then it comes on, I don't know.
>> I thought that was the intent of what we were trying to regulate here that all of the information would be provided in all modes whether it's visual and audio. O r vi sual audio hearing loop they are supposed to be provided simultaneously. I don't think I am not sure I thought that was the intent that we used to provide the same information not providing different information via different means. I would think you wou ld want to tie the two together.
>> This is Blair again. I would assume that in a condition based on what we are doing here, yes, that would be in fact the case. T hat if there is a voice communication that the upcoming station is Baltimore please gather your things simultaneously that message is being scrolled on the digital device broadcasting to the hearing loop by default. B ut what we

-- when we see now, you guys probably it's less of an issue on a fast

- based

-- fast

- paced transit system they don't have time for frivolous message to come up >> That is a big problem.
>> Yeah, if you ride the Acelas there are messages out there I am not sure Jersey Transit had their stuff or not.There are messages it's the same thing that's broadcast by

voice it may ju st be on a sort of endless loop. I t's over and over again. You wouldn't want to hear that all through your trip.
>> Oh, my God no. P lease don't we can't

-- we can't regulate that or you will have people jumping from the train.
>> We may by default regul ate that aware. T hat is something that needs to be considered and I will throw that one to Jim to think about, are we

-- we have voice messaging we have visual messaging and we have the hearing loops assistive devices. A re we going to say that all messag es occur simultaneously and there is no reference for repeating of messages visually that don't have that you know the endless effect of voice.
>> but I will say Frank the New York City Transit have that they have the time and next stop like Amtrak they ar e not repeating it incessantly whether that goes away. You have to remember the passengers are not aware of what the regulations are, nor should they have to be. S o, while it may seem obvious to everyone on the committee and we will know that when there is voice there is visual, the consumer is not going to know that. S o we have to provide information for the uninformed consumer as well. W hich is most of America. I mean, I will tell you when you go on anairline I can pretty much tell you most people d on't know

what the FAA regulations are nor do each the flight attendants. I remember being on the train with my daughter as a child with FAA regulated stroller I was told not permitted. I had to fly with the regulations which I did. I t was allowed. Eve ry flight attendant was shocked they didn't know the FAA regulations.
>> Once you put a sticker on the car you are going to apply there is going to be messages on the hearing loop. You don't have a sticker then you might know.
>> You can't imply because I am telling you, one, sometimes one system is down and the other isn't. A nd so it's a visual

-- if the visual alert is not working the induction loop could be working and people don't make the connection that you are making because you are involved in the process, I will be happy Frank to show you the museum downtown there is a sign right when you walk in, not one person in the museum knows the system is in place. N ot one. Except the person involved in install it. According, based on that theory you sho uldn't need it there is visual alert. T he sign is there nobody knows it's there. S o you have to kind of like spoon feed people the information if we are going to the effort of doing this and spending all of the money we want to make sure the system is actually used and it's form andfunction. O therwise we are regulating for the sake of

regulation rather than for customer service which is how you have happy customers and you get them on the train it should be win

-win situation it's about getting bodies in the seats. I f you get more bodies in the seats of people with disabilities you see the benefit of doing it then it's a win

-win for everybody. I t won't be about requiring all of this stuff because that's what the law is, I want this to be about providing excellent customer service when you do the extra little things and connect the dots for people because people are too busy

-- half the time they are going on the train they are on the phone they are not even looking up. I am not sure they ever look up un til they see something sitting in the seat they take a moment. T hat's when you see the sign inside the trains they are not noticing it going in. I t's amazing there are not more people choked getting on to trains.
>> Let me make another suggestion variabl e message signs are working hopefully every time announcement is made. I f you put the hearing loop indications adjacent to that it's the same thing as lighting up the hearing loop sign every time communication goes on.
>> the problem is you are not going to leave the induction loop on the whole time safety issues about that because itblocks out the people around you. You need to know when

it is actually activated.
>> Okay. I t's activated when the sign is scrolling. You are looking >> You think that I a m telling you having done this now 12 years, there is a disconnect. A nd things that seem obvious are not obvious. Even within the hearing loss community the things that I would think would be obvious are not.
>> All right.
>> It's shocking. I t's truly s hocking it's not to imply there is a problem with the people with hearing loss. I think the disconnect is sometimes we get so involved in doing this

-- >> Wait. >> You know the museum from the architects, they know where everything is they put the signs

- - you really need to connect the dots. T hink of like GAR animals every time you connect the dots the pants and shirts it connects together the more you make it easier this little bit is providing excellent customer service you don't want to cut the last l ittle bit off so it's not used then you have a TLC commission issue which is now a disaster they have egg on their face they put in expensive system and nobody in New York knows about this.>> Let me make another suggestion there is another way

to address the issue of enunciating the use of hearing loop. I don't think it has to be lit up. You can make the sign actually state on it that hearing loop act rated

-- activated when sign is scrolling you can say that accomplishes the same thing I don't think it' s a good idea to be adding additional indication lights which is additional maintenance and extra work when it can be done in a more reliable fashion without the need for additional light. T hat being said, that is my suggestion, and I do want to ask Jim t he same question that I think Blair was asking, that has to do with, do the signs have to exactly match the VMS signs do they have to exactly match the PA announcements or is it possible for the signs to repeat something that's already said on the PA? You say if that's been addressed or are we talking about that in any detail.
>> This is Jim irrelevant don't think we talked about that specifically no. I think we basically had the premise if you provide the information audibly it has to be provided visual leach. I f you provide the information visually it has to be provided audibly. A nd if it's audible it has to be true loop.
>> Okay.
>> the principles that we said.
>> if it's repeated visually not audibly I think we are okay.>> It I mean to me

-- yeah, well, there is

--

(LAUGHTER) >> I am thinking in terms of if you

-- let's think in terms of stop announcements. I n other words, if the next stop is Charleston, and you put up the sign and it says Charleston and it stays there the sign stays lit it does n't move it stays on and then you sort of announce it there or four times next stop is Charleston but you sign doesn't move it stays there saying Charleston while you are making the same announcement that seems to be equivalent. W hen we talk about I don't know if you want to talk about equivalent facilitation and all that good stuff but that's the regs and all of that kind of good thing. B ut that may be something we need to talk about so we don't have noise pollution and things like that to have it specified over and over again in voice if you are scrolling it over and over again in visual format. P robably I'd have to defer to the committee and see what they want to do about that >> I think you bring up a good point. O ne of the things that happens. I no ticed you can hear faster than you can read. You are trying to cram the announcements in quickly you can say and exit adds you train but you can't see. O nce you pass the VMS sign you are not seeing it anymore. I t seems to me they don't have to match 100%. At times thereis going to be spill over or overlap. I think it's a good idea

to allow for that and not restrict it because then you are restricting the amount of information that can be provided. I was thinking about up with aking the gaps we can in corporate other announcements and watch the gap on the PA or on the VMS sign to keep people aware. A nd you know, I do

-- I don't think if you say it once or twice maybe you want to keep scrolling or leaving it on as you go down the road. You might want t o leave the watch the gap sign on there. Every time a new message comes up it comes off. I don't see the harm in that that's my suggestion you allow them to be different as long as the same information is provided overall.
>> Frank, this is Janice. G oin g back to the previous issue, I don't think the sign has to be lit up if you do push information. B ut we already have like Blair on the subway says activating you need to switch your hearing aid to the T

- coil under the ear symbol. We want to make sure th ere is not so much verbiage. T hat was just coming up with more creative solutions to indicate to people when the announcement is actually on. I f you put the wording underneath the sign that would work. I n terms of the duality of the visual message and h earing, I think that you do need to have the redundancy. S ometimes even thoughpeople are exiting the train, you have still people sitting in

their seat remaining on the train. You have people waiting in the aisles to exit the train. S o, I think we shou ldn't assume where people are and just are the redundancy so no one is omitted the information. S ometimes you don't hear it the first time. I know I may need the second time it's heard because it may be muffled. N ot that I want to hear any announcement over and over as Blair indicated before that would be dreadful. >> This is Jim. I want to say one thing

-- >> Our meeting with Jim meeting with Blair definitely don't want to hear whoever it was don't want to hear an announcement repeated over and over date and time that would be irritating.
>> This is Blair. O ne of the things that we have had on cars before it was

-- we replaced a lit sign that said it was a fixed lit sign that said cafe this way or cafe the other way an you
-- and you flip the switch ac cord to go where it was and exit this way. We went to a scrolling sign it would give you messages but then it would default every so many second or minutes to those traditional messages again. S o, it might

-- it would stay that way a while. S o you know that message that people needed throughout their trip of which the cafe was and which way the exit was back to like a fixedsign. T hen it goes into a message. B ut you

-- I could tell

we had just painted Jim into a corner that if an announcement is made o nce verbally, and that sort of an accepted amount that's okay, does that necessarily preclude

-- I think that's something that we need to have understood so we don't have the ambiguity going forward does it preclude that message being repeated on a scrolli ng sign throughout the trip. >> This is Jim. I think you guys need to think about that. You need to think about it in terms of okay what frequency will you allow it. I f the visual sign is specified every 5 seconds clearly you don't want to have an audib le announcement every 5 seconds. I think if there is a sufficient amount of time between when you say the same thing

-- in other words, if it's half an hour later you are going to say the same thing I think you need to do it in both mode. T hat is somethi ng that you guys need to sort of discuss amongst yourselves to get an idea where you want to go. Let me sort of jump in with one quick thing Janice said something that triggered something in my mind. S he talked about when one system was broken versus ano ther one. Keep in mind, that the guidelines the standards are kind of assuming that everything is in good working order. T his is the requirement you have to have this. Let's assume itworks.

It doesn't really talk about when a system or some element of what we are talking about is broken. T hat is sort of a main accessible features in the regulation not in the standards or guidelines. >> Interesting. S o what do we do if let's say for example because what happens, that's just part of life things brake wh at do we do if one is broken. T hat's my fare having one broken and then not having the other

-- the person being aware that the other system is there? >> I know that

-- that DOT has it in the regs somewhere I can never really find it. I can give you what Justice does in their building's requirements if you give me two second to find it. I t's basically

-- it requires, if I can find it here hang
on a sec. H ere it is. I t basically requires maintain operable working condition equipment required to be readil y accessible with persons with disabilities. I t then goes on to say the distinction does not prohibit temporary interruption of service due to maintenance or repairs. I t says you have to maintain it and keep it in good working order but it's going to give you a little bit of time to sort of fix it. B ut you can't let it sit around six months and not do anything about T. I believe there is something similar it DOT's regs. L ike I say, I can't remember where it is I think it's in there.>> (inaudible)

>> It 's in the recommendations to DOT. >> (inaudible) it's definitely in here because the provision was put in here because there were transit providers of section 504 that locked down the regs. >> What? >> They made the (inaudible) inoperable this provision which is written to make this an option again there was a case involving lifts where my recollection is that the judge said they have the lift nobody in the law makes them be operable. (LAUGHTER) >> You can't make this stuff up. T his is why you have t o over regulate.
>> The maintenance accessible features were born because of the frustration of people offer that incident. >> Crazy. >> This is Jim. F olks we have about looks like about 7 more minutes on the call. S o, I am going to put out the next meet ing is going to be December 4. A nd the other gentleman who wants to invite the folks from Gallaudet to come in please do. I f you can send us an E

- mail with regards to what they want to talk about maybe how much they want to talk might be able to put it i n the agenda. I fthat's your preference

--

>> This is Andrew, sure that would be fine.
>> Okay. I would like to throw out a couple of things for you to chew on and think about for next time that we haven't really gotten into in fairly any depth. A nd one of them is the ISA I want to go back to the ISA it's the only place that's required currently in the standard is on the outside of certain vehicles that are required to be accessible. T hat's it. I t's not required at the priority seating even though a lo t of people put it there it's not required at wheelchair locations. It's not required on toilet rooms as I recall, I would have to go look specifically. I don't think it's required there either. There might be certain places that you might want to requi re it be placed and think about that. T he other couple of issues is alarms. I n other words, if you have in like a sleeper car you have a fire alarm what

-- you want to talk about requirements for those, are they something that the industry puts into thei r vehicles or is it all done through communication via the PA system. I f they are provided, you know, what requirements do you want to provide

-- have them require. T he building standard requires NFTA 72 the national fire association standard for fire al arms which is mass notification now which is what 72 is. A nd then the other thing is with regards to audible announcements, doyou want to get into the issue of the clarity of those

announcements in other words, speech intelligibility I don't know if there is anything out there for rail vehicles that could be something for the board to look into some research projects down the road or how ever you want to do that. But that is where I am going with some of this stuff. I s there anybody else that wants to b ring up anything for the good of the cause or are we about done today? I know I am about done. I think you could stick a fork in me. >> Again, dead air.
>> Everybody is just trying to figure that one out. (LAUGHTER) >> This is Blair, Jim you are too big of a fella for me to stick a fork into. (LAUGHTER) >> This is Janice I am laughing too hard on mute I'm sorry that was just too funny. (LAUGHTER) >> Yeah I have got one of the turkey pop up things it went off about 5 minutes ago, so yeah. (LAUGHTER) >> I think the intelligibility is very critical I think that's something that benefits every person and I think we really should consider that. A nd also on the rooms, my concern isfor people who are deaf who have hearing aids out.

Develop ing

--Andrew would know about that, but what to do when someone's hearing aids is removed in the middle of the night and there is an emergency. A nd

-- >> This is Blair. O ne of the things that David and I talked about is bed shakers and we also for fire al arms and things strobe lights those kind of things. B ut I had never

-- I had never heard of bed shakers until David told me about them shall

--wow not only for alarms but connected to the room doorbell, you know, if you are to get off in Iowa we don't make a big announcement the attendant wakes you. You know, you will be awakened they don't have to tear your door down.
>> As long as they are not

-- they have to be hard wired. The problem when you do them as I am blanking on the word where it's remote. I f someone mass
-- passes your door on the middle of the night we saw it on the passenger vessel committee I am blanking on the word. O ur family tested them at 3 o'clock in the morning any person who passed out our door the room shook the lights went off it was so horrible. T hose bed shakers sound really great until you necessarily have to use them there are people in the room that don't need them you could have deaf Oriental Express on the train the murder on the Oriental Express.Especially when there is not emergency and someone is

walking past your room repeatedly.
>> Were they proximity sense sores I am thinking of the button outside the room.
>> That's right. A s long as you don't have kids passing the room, having fun and they are drunk in the middle of the night.
>> They put the drunks off at the next stop

-- >> This is Jim let me jump in here real quick to give you information. O ne of the things the FDA did in the recent cycle they considered bed shakers rejected it because they are not certified or if you will they don't have a underwriter's laboratory label they are not tested. T hey were hesitant to sort of talk about bed shakers for that reason. W hat they did do is put in a new requirement which goes into effect in the very near future for a low frequency alarm. A nd that's basically a requirement for specifically for folks who are hard of hearing, or hearing impaired in some way but not completely deaf. M ost frequency alarm is basically if you
-- the example if you are driving down the highway a nd a kid comes along in the car even though the windows are up. H e has his stereo really loud, but all you can hear is the bass drum it's like a vibration that's a low frequency alarm. They are going to

-- they propose to put it in in sleepingareas in b uildings that are required to have an alarm system

in it you might want to consider that.
>> Jim this is Blair from Amtrak. A nd I will make this quick. We have to

-- we have a requirement to have I'm sorry not a requirement but a recommendation long stan ding for fire and smoke alarms, and obviously a need to be able to wake people up and of course very close quarters like a ship or a (inaudible) you run the risk of waking up everyone. I f it's an emergency that's grit that's the idea. B ut we have to bala nce that. A nd we tend it get outside on the railroad of some of the things, we put stuff through our own tests that exceed UL. S o, we can certainly think about that. >> on that note that's the last thing that we can say because we are now over 3 clock by my computer thank you everybody for the participation and we will talk to you on December 4th.
>> Thank you. >> Thanks Jim. >> Okay. T hank you very much everybody. O perate are thank you for your help today, we get to do it all again next week.
>> Thank you very much. P leasure working

-- pleasure working with you. H ave a good day. >> All right. You too.(End of meeting.)