### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1**  **UNITED STATES OF AMERICA + + + + +**  **DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **PUBLIC MEETING ON TEST PROCEDURES FOR RESIDENTIAL CLOTHES DRYERS** 

**+ + + + + WEDNESDAY**  **FEBRUARY 6, 2013 + + + + +** **The meeting convened in Room 1E 245, 1000 Independence Avenue, Washington,**  **D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, Meeting Facilitator, presiding.**  **PRESENT DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public**  **Solutions ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, DOE**  **BETSY KOHL, DOE STEPHEN WITKOWSKI, DOE**  **JENNIFER THORNE AMANN, American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy**  **JAMES BATTAGLIA, Navigant Consulting MICHAEL BROWN, Hydromatic Technologies**  **Corporation CHRIS CALWELL, Ecova**  **JENNIFER CLEARY, Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers**  **ABIGAIL DAKEN, EPA TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and Conservation**  **Council JULIA FARBER, UL LLC**  **STEPHEN B. LEYBOURN, Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers**  **JESSICA LYMAN, ICF International**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2**  **JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness Project**  **JUDITH REICH, Navigant Consulting MICHAEL RIVEST, Navigant Consulting**  **CHARLES STEPHENS, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance**  **MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense Council**  **CHRISTOPHER WOLD, CLASP DIMPLES YOUNG, Hydromatic Technologies** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3**  **CONTENTS Call to Order 5**  **Doug Brookman Facilitator**  **Welcome 5 Stephen Witkowski**  **DOE Introductions 6**  **Agenda Review 9 Doug Brookman**  **Facilitator Comments by Charles Stephens 13**  **Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance Comments by Michael Brown 24**  **Hydromatic Technologies Comments by Joanna Mauer 28**  **Appliance Standards Awareness Project Introduction and Regulatory History**  **Stephen Witkowski DOE**  **Covered Products: Automatic Cycle 31, 38 Termination 56, 63**  **James Battaglia 67, 69 Navigant 73, 77**  **84, 102 105, 120**  **133, 135 Questions and Comments 35, 40**  **59, 64 68, 69**  **75, 79 85, 104**  **110, 122 134, 136** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4**  **CONTENTS (CONTINUED)**

**Standby/Off Mode: Incorporating 141, 150 IEC Standard 62301 (Second Edition) 155, 164**  **James Battaglia 172, 174 Navigant**  **Questions and Comments 145, 153 163, 166**  **172, 182**

**Closing Remarks and Adjourn 202 Stephen Witkowski**  **DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  

### 2 **9:01 a.m.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, let's start.** 

### 4 **Good morning, everyone, and** 

### 5 **welcome.** 

### 6 **This is the U.S. Department of** 

### 7 **Energy's public meeting on test procedures for** 

### 8 **residential clothes dryers. Today is February** 

### 9 **6th, 2013, here in the Forrestal Building in** 

### 10 **Washington, D.C.** 

### 11 **My name is Doug Brookman from** 

### 12 **Public Solutions in Baltimore. I will be** 

### 13 **facilitating today's meeting.** 

### 14 **We are going to start off this** 

### 15 **morning with welcoming remarks from Stephen** 

### 16 **Witkowski.** 

### 17 **MR. WITKOWSKI: Well, good** 

### 18 **morning, everyone. I want to welcome you to** 

### 19 **this rulemaking.** 

### 20 **Just a few things to try to keep** 

### 21 **in mind.** 

### 22 **DOE is here to collect**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1 information, to share information, and to**  

### 2 **eventually evaluate it. We hope that, besides** 

### 3 **your remarks in this meeting, you will --** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Hey, Stephen, is** 

### 5 **your microphone on?** 

### 6 **MR. WITKOWSKI: I think so.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 8 **MR. WITKOWSKI: Is that better?** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 10 **MR. WITKOWSKI: And we strongly** 

### 11 **urge you to supply written comments or any** 

### 12 **additional comments that you have after the** 

### 13 **meeting within the comment period.** 

### 14 **So, that's it.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, it is** 

### 16 **our tradition to start with introductions** 

### 17 **around the room. I will start here,** 

### 18 **immediately to my left.** 

### 19 **You can get used to turning the** 

### 20 **microphone on and off. That little green** 

### 21 **button needs to be illuminated.** 

### 22 **Please say your name and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 organizational affiliation.**  

### 2 **MR. BROWN: Good morning.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Down below there is** 

### 4 **that broader band. That thing, yes (referring** 

### 5 **to turning on the microphone).** 

### 6 **MR. BROWN: Okay. Good morning.** 

### 7 **My name is Michael Brown. We** 

### 8 **represent Hydromatic Technologies Corporation.** 

### 9 **We are the newest appliance manufacturing** 

### 10 **organization with a highly-energy-efficient** 

### 11 **clothes dryer. We are happy to be here this** 

### 12 **morning.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 14 **MS. YOUNG: Okay. My name is** 

### 15 **Dimples Young. I am here representing** 

### 16 **Hydromatic Technologies with Michael Brown,** 

### 17 **just supporting.** 

### 18 **And thank you all for having us** 

### 19 **here.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 21 **MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary with** 

### 22 **the Association of Home Appliance**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1 Manufacturers.**  

### 2 **MR. LEYBOURN: Steve Leybourn,** 

### 3 **also with the Association of Home Appliance** 

### 4 **Manufacturers.** 

### 5 **MS. DAKEN: Abigail Daken, U.S.** 

### 6 **EPA.** 

### 7 **MS. FARBER: Julia Farber with UL.** 

### 8 **MR. CALWELL: I'm Chris Calwell** 

### 9 **from Ecova, and we are representing the** 

### 10 **California Investor-Owned Utilities.** 

### 11 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens** 

### 12 **from the Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance.** 

### 13 **MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest** 

### 14 **Power and Conservation Council.** 

### 15 **MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, Natural** 

### 16 **Resources Defense Council.** 

### 17 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer,** 

### 18 **Appliance Standards Awareness Project.** 

### 19 **MR. WOLD: Christopher Wold from** 

### 20 **CLASP. I am also representing SEDI, the Super** 

### 21 **Efficient Dryer Initiative.** 

### 22 **MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE General**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1 Counsel.**  

### 2 **MR. WITKOWSKI: Stephen Witkowski** 

### 3 **with the Department of Energy.** 

### 4 **MR. BATTAGLIA: James Battaglia,** 

### 5 **Navigant Consulting.** 

### 6 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong,** 

### 7 **DOE.** 

### 8 **MS. LYMAN: Jessica Lyman, ICF** 

### 9 **Consulting.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 11 **Would you like to introduce** 

### 12 **yourself? Thank you. Okay.** 

### 13 **All of you I see received a packet** 

### 14 **of information as you came into the room, both** 

### 15 **an agenda and a series of PowerPoint slides,** 

### 16 **as well as The Federal Register notice. So, I** 

### 17 **am going to do a brief review of the agenda** 

### 18 **first.** 

### 19 **Immediately following this agenda** 

### 20 **review, we are going to have opening remarks** 

### 21 **and, then, an introduction and regulatory** 

### 22 **history. There is an opportunity here at the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 outset for anybody who wishes to do so to make**  

### 2 **brief summary comments about issues that are** 

### 3 **important to you.** 

### 4 **Following that, we are going to** 

### 5 **have a description of the covered products.** 

### 6 **You can see it there listed: the automatic** 

### 7 **cycle termination feature.** 

### 8 **We will take a break mid-morning,** 

### 9 **round about 11 o'clock or so.** 

### 10 **Following the mid-morning break,** 

### 11 **standby and off mode, incorporating IEC** 

### 12 **Standard 62301, the Second Edition.** 

### 13 **Moving on from there, technical** 

### 14 **corrections and clarifications to test** 

### 15 **conditions.** 

### 16 **Following that, effects of test** 

### 17 **procedures revisions on standards, and EPCA** 

### 18 **requirements.** 

### 19 **At 12:45 or so, whenever we get** 

### 20 **there today, yet another opportunity for** 

### 21 **anybody who wishes to do so to make closing** 

### 22 **remarks, cover issues that haven't been**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 covered to your satisfaction today.**  

### 2 **And as the agenda reflects, we** 

### 3 **intend to adjourn today early, perhaps 12:45** 

### 4 **or so. But we will take a mid-morning break** 

### 5 **and, then, we are going to keep pressing on.** 

### 6 **We are not going to pause for lunch. We are** 

### 7 **just going to get this done as soon as we can** 

### 8 **expeditiously. Okay?** 

### 9 **I ask for your consideration,** 

### 10 **please. I have charted up here on the flip** 

### 11 **chart what have emerged as common courtesies** 

### 12 **in these meetings.** 

### 13 **Please speak one at a time.** 

### 14 **Please say your name for the record each time** 

### 15 **you speak. You don't need to say your** 

### 16 **organizational affiliation. We know who is** 

### 17 **here, but we do want your name because there** 

### 18 **will be a complete transcript of this meeting.** 

### 19 **If you could keep the focus here,** 

### 20 **please turn your cell phones on silent mode** 

### 21 **and limit sidebar conversations.** 

### 22 **All of you have already gotten the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 habit of turning the microphones on and off.**  

### 2 **They work pretty well. But let's do turn them** 

### 3 **on and off.** 

### 4 **If you could be concise, share the** 

### 5 **airtime. Even though this is a fairly brief** 

### 6 **meeting, there is still a lot to be said. And** 

### 7 **the Department really values all of your good** 

### 8 **comments. So, let's make sure we get them all** 

### 9 **appropriately captured in the record.** 

### 10 **And for webinar participants,** 

### 11 **welcome. We are glad to have you joining us.** 

### 12 **How many do we have on the web?** 

### 13 **MR. GRAUL: Twelve.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Twelve via the web.** 

### 15 **If you could please mute your** 

### 16 **telephones, so that you don't cause feedback** 

### 17 **here in the room at Forrestal. And when you** 

### 18 **wish to speak, if you wish to speak, please** 

### 19 **raise your hand on the software, and we will** 

### 20 **find a way to get you into this conversation.** 

### 21 **Questions and comments here at the** 

### 22 **outset before we proceed?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 (No response.)**  

### 2 **Then, to Stephen Witkowski. Do** 

### 3 **you want to do that first? Okay. Do you want** 

### 4 **to cue this slide?** 

### 5 **So, then, we are going to hear** 

### 6 **from NEEA first. Charlie Stephens is going to** 

### 7 **provide an overview.** 

### 8 **There is a slide -- yes.** 

### 9 **MR. STEPHENS: Good morning.** 

### 10 **There is not a long explanation** 

### 11 **here. I will take just a minute to explain** 

### 12 **what you are about to see. It is going to be** 

### 13 **pretty much visual.** 

### 14 **It comes from a combination of my** 

### 15 **organization's field data in 50 households in** 

### 16 **four states in the Pacific Northwest. We have** 

### 17 **been into 1400 households there, and this is a** 

### 18 **subset of that. We have the data. We will** 

### 19 **share the data with anyone who wants it.** 

### 20 **Where we had our people in these** 

### 21 **households basically tell us what they were** 

### 22 **washing. We have their laundry equipment by**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 make and model number and year of manufacture.**  

### 2 **We know the demographics for the household,** 

### 3 **and we monitored the energy use of the clothes** 

### 4 **washer and the clothes dryer, the clothes** 

### 5 **dryer at one-minute intervals -- or excuse me** 

### 6 **-- at 15-second intervals.** 

### 7 **And so, we have a lot of data here** 

### 8 **that showed us what people are washing. These** 

### 9 **people weighed their clothes for us three** 

### 10 **times with each load for a month, before it** 

### 11 **went in the washer, between the washer and** 

### 12 **dryer, and after it came out of the dryer.** 

### 13 **And they kept a log of what they were doing** 

### 14 **and whether they took stuff out, whether they** 

### 15 **used dryer sheets, all that kind of stuff.** 

### 16 **So, we have a lot of data.** 

### 17 **We also worked with Ecova -- Chris** 

### 18 **Calwell is back here in the back of the room** 

### 19 **-- to do some lab testing, some of which was** 

### 20 **on machines that were virtually identical to** 

### 21 **some of the machines that were in our study,** 

### 22 **so we could compare the lab data and the field**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 data.**  

### 2 **And we have been testing those** 

### 3 **with more than one kind of load, with a DOE** 

### 4 **load, but we have also been testing with the** 

### 5 **AHAM 1992 load. So, what you are going to see** 

### 6 **here is the data from those two things.** 

### 7 **First of all, just to give you an** 

### 8 **idea of the character of what you are going to** 

### 9 **see, this is the distribution of drying times** 

### 10 **from our field data. And you can see what the** 

### 11 **typical DOE load takes in terms of drying time** 

### 12 **there in the red line on the left.** 

### 13 **So, when you see that, it tells us** 

### 14 **right away that what is going on in the field** 

### 15 **is not exactly what goes on in the test** 

### 16 **procedures. So, there are lots of graphs like** 

### 17 **this, but they will be in different forms.** 

### 18 **This is another form of the graph.** 

### 19 **On the left is energy consumed per cycle in** 

### 20 **kilowatt hours, and on the bottom is drying** 

### 21 **time in minutes. Now the square with the** 

### 22 **green rim around it down there in the lower**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 left is the DOE test load, and the rest is our**  

### 2 **data. And our average is the green triangle.** 

### 3 **So, you can sort of see where the DOE test** 

### 4 **load comes out in relation to the field data** 

### 5 **when we actually look at what people wash and** 

### 6 **how they wash it.** 

### 7 **In this one, energy consumed is on** 

### 8 **the left and load size is on the bottom. And** 

### 9 **you can sort of see here that DOE does a** 

### 10 **little bit better on the load size. Our** 

### 11 **average load size was actually slightly** 

### 12 **smaller than the DOE load size to start with.** 

### 13 **So, what is going on?** 

### 14 **Well, here is a summary of what is** 

### 15 **going on and why these things look the way** 

### 16 **they do. First of all, you can see that the** 

### 17 **remaining moisture in our customer loads** 

### 18 **averaged 80 percent, not the 70 percent that** 

### 19 **we used to use and not the 60 percent plus or** 

### 20 **minus, 57 percent -- excuse me -- that we are** 

### 21 **using now.** 

### 22 **We think we have some explanations**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 for why that is. We would be happy to talk**  

### 2 **about it later.** 

### 3 **You can see, because of that RMC,** 

### 4 **water removed is much larger. The dry weight,** 

### 5 **as I said, is actually less than the 8.45 DOE** 

### 6 **load.** 

### 7 **You can see down in the big box** 

### 8 **that the clothes that are being washed are** 

### 9 **mostly three-dimensional and heavy, heavier** 

### 10 **fabric and varying thickness. The average** 

### 11 **drying time is more than double what you get** 

### 12 **with a typical DOE load. So, obviously, the** 

### 13 **energy used per load is greater.** 

### 14 **And you can see the washer cycles** 

### 15 **that go into the dryer is greater than 100** 

### 16 **percent, and that is because some of these** 

### 17 **loads are being split in two. So, people are** 

### 18 **washing one load, but they are splitting it up** 

### 19 **to dry it because they know that the dryer** 

### 20 **won't dry it in any reasonable amount of time** 

### 21 **if they don't probably. That is what some** 

### 22 **interviews with some of our folks will tell**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 us.**  

### 2 **Loads per year, a little bit** 

### 3 **higher than the old DOE number of 416. So,** 

### 4 **the average number of loads has gone up a** 

### 5 **little bit, but not enough so we would** 

### 6 **complain about it.** 

### 7 **The other thing you will notice is** 

### 8 **that I think a lot of people assumed that the** 

### 9 **bigger clothes washers would result in more** 

### 10 **consolidated loads and bigger loads. Well,** 

### 11 **that is not happening. As you can see, our** 

### 12 **average load size was actually a little under** 

### 13 **DOE's load size. So, people are not,** 

### 14 **obviously, using their larger clothes washers** 

### 15 **to wash larger loads.** 

### 16 **And you can see what the average** 

### 17 **energy use per dryer in kilowatt hours per** 

### 18 **year was. If you use the DOE test procedure** 

### 19 **and scale it up, it is 641 kilowatt hours.** 

### 20 **Our average annual energy use is 1134 kilowatt** 

### 21 **hours, nearly double what the DOE test** 

### 22 **procedure produces.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 These are the loads that we are**  

### 2 **looking at. On the left is the DOE load. The** 

### 3 **big rectangle is just one of those things that** 

### 4 **is folded, stretched out. That is the case in** 

### 5 **all of these loads. There is one sample of** 

### 6 **these, what is in the piles, spread out, so** 

### 7 **you can see what they actually are.** 

### 8 **So, there is the IEC easy care** 

### 9 **load -- that is a mixed load -- and the AHAM** 

### 10 **1992 test load.** 

### 11 **Okay. Now here is the difference** 

### 12 **in the loads, and I want to show you this** 

### 13 **because it is kind of interesting to see when** 

### 14 **you stretch it all out.** 

### 15 **What you are going to see is the** 

### 16 **cotton content of the load on the left and the** 

### 17 **ply thickness, the fabric thickness,** 

### 18 **essentially, along the bottom. We are going** 

### 19 **to plot some dots here.** 

### 20 **The first one you are going to** 

### 21 **see, there is the DOE test load. It is a** 

### 22 **mixed load, cotton and polyester, but it is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 utterly consistent, and the ply is fairly**  

### 2 **thin.** 

### 3 **This is the IEC mixed load, a** 

### 4 **little bit thinner fabric yet, but a little** 

### 5 **more cotton in the fabric.** 

### 6 **This is the IEC cotton load,** 

### 7 **obviously, 100 percent cotton, but the plies** 

### 8 **that are being loaded or washed and dried here** 

### 9 **are obviously fairly thin. They are not** 

### 10 **really different at all than the DOE ply.** 

### 11 **This is the Australia/New Zealand** 

### 12 **load, which, as you can see, is mostly cotton,** 

### 13 **but you can see that there is an enormous** 

### 14 **range of ply thickness here. So, some things** 

### 15 **are easier to dry than others. This a lot** 

### 16 **more resembles the loads that we actually see** 

### 17 **when we see stuff in the field. You can see** 

### 18 **there is a little bit of mix down there in the** 

### 19 **60 percent cotton on the far right, but it is** 

### 20 **a heavy ply.** 

### 21 **And this is the AHAM 1992 test** 

### 22 **load, which is what we have been testing in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 the lab. And you can see that it is cotton,**  

### 2 **but it has a very good range of ply thickness.** 

### 3 **And so, it gives you a better idea of what it** 

### 4 **takes to actually dry a typical field load, we** 

### 5 **think, than all of these others.** 

### 6 **We haven't tested the Australian** 

### 7 **load because we haven't been able to get a** 

### 8 **hold of one.** 

### 9 **Just a few other things from our** 

### 10 **study. You can see that for dryer temperature** 

### 11 **selected, more than half, just more than half,** 

### 12 **selected medium as the temperature setting for** 

### 13 **the load. Dryness level, you can see that 57** 

### 14 **percent selected normal, and 42 selected very** 

### 15 **dry.** 

### 16 **Airflow rates, we measured the** 

### 17 **airflow of the dryers at the terminus of the** 

### 18 **dryer vent for each of these houses. The** 

### 19 **lowest airflow we measured was 6 CFM, and you** 

### 20 **can see the highest was up there a little over** 

### 21 **160 CFM. We did have to repair the one that** 

### 22 **had 6 CFM. We didn't dare let those people**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 use the dryer during the study. So, we had to**  

### 2 **actually clean out their exhaust.** 

### 3 **But you can see there that the** 

### 4 **typical DOE airflow rate is quite a bit higher** 

### 5 **than the preponderance of our data. So, the** 

### 6 **airflow that we are seeing in the field** 

### 7 **averaged 79 CFM.** 

### 8 **This is a result from our lab** 

### 9 **work. You can sort of see the variation of** 

### 10 **the IEC cotton auto termination load and the** 

### 11 **DOE auto termination load. When you plot the** 

### 12 **variation that you see in the tests, it is a** 

### 13 **little bit higher with the cotton load, but it** 

### 14 **is not that much higher. And given that the** 

### 15 **amount of energy that it takes to dry these** 

### 16 **loads is quite a bit higher, the results as a** 

### 17 **percentage of what you are measuring are not** 

### 18 **all that different. So, we are not very** 

### 19 **concerned about that.** 

### 20 **So, we will cover all of this** 

### 21 **stuff, I am sure, in part of the discussion** 

### 22 **today. But all I wanted to do was give you a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 sense of the data and what it looks like as we**  

### 2 **make our comments as we go through the morning** 

### 3 **here.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: Thanks very much.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Charlie.** 

### 7 **As I understand it, the audio, for** 

### 8 **those of you that are joining us via the web,** 

### 9 **the audio for everyone that is not at the** 

### 10 **podium, presenting at the podium, is garbled,** 

### 11 **but we are working on it. So, hopefully, that** 

### 12 **will be fixed, and you will be able to hear** 

### 13 **all the comments coming from every participant** 

### 14 **here in the room.** 

### 15 **Since we started with these** 

### 16 **comments here at the outset, maybe we will** 

### 17 **just continue with that before we have Stephen** 

### 18 **Witkowski's opening remarks.** 

### 19 **Other comments here at the outset** 

### 20 **from anybody?** 

### 21 **Michael, do you wish to make a** 

### 22 **comment? Please say your name for the record.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 MR. BROWN: Yes, Michael Brown.**  

### 2 **I would like to represent** 

### 3 **something to this audience and to the** 

### 4 **Department of Energy here.** 

### 5 **Our company, Hydromatic** 

### 6 **Technologies, has been in business since 2005.** 

### 7 **We developed a clothes dryer technology that** 

### 8 **has tested against all of the big boys in this** 

### 9 **room, for the most part, the biggest one, I** 

### 10 **should say. I am going to call them out** 

### 11 **because I have no other choice.** 

### 12 **Whirlpool Corporation and** 

### 13 **Electrolux, we tested our dryers' technology** 

### 14 **against their heating system. Bear in mind,** 

### 15 **although these are giant companies, I am here** 

### 16 **today in the company of giants, but I am not** 

### 17 **here to represent that role of a mouse. So, I** 

### 18 **have to speak to let everyone know that our** 

### 19 **technology, the hybrid electric technology, is** 

### 20 **better than any technology for dryers that we** 

### 21 **are talking about today.** 

### 22 **I am saying that because I have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 already gone up against the heating systems of**  

### 2 **electric resistance heat elements. And my** 

### 3 **hydronic technology, which we formerly called** 

### 4 **hydronic, is now known as a hybrid electric** 

### 5 **technology.** 

### 6 **I have gone up against gas dryers** 

### 7 **and tested against gas dryers, and our** 

### 8 **technology has outperformed, in energy** 

### 9 **efficiency and safety, gas dryers.** 

### 10 **I have gone --** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: I want to make sure** 

### 12 **your comments relate to the test procedure.** 

### 13 **MR. BROWN: Yes, I am. Yes, they** 

### 14 **are. Thank you.** 

### 15 **And as a result of the fact, we** 

### 16 **now understand the heat pump dryer. And Mr.** 

### 17 **Stephens has mentioned previously about the** 

### 18 **testing of dryers. He didn't call out the** 

### 19 **heat pump dryer, but I understand that you are** 

### 20 **speaking of the heat pump dryer.** 

### 21 **And when it comes to testing, Mr.** 

### 22 **Brookman, we seem to have a big problem with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 getting our dryers tested, a major problem.**  

### 2 **And I understand that there is a process, but** 

### 3 **I just am here today to state for the record** 

### 4 **that the best technology that is not here** 

### 5 **today has not yet been tested.** 

### 6 **And I want it tested by any** 

### 7 **organization that is a valid, fair, unbiased** 

### 8 **organization for testing a clothes dryer** 

### 9 **technology that will deliver less energy** 

### 10 **consumption for every load that may be** 

### 11 **utilized. Whether it is DOE's load or AHAM's** 

### 12 **load or even the real-world load, it will** 

### 13 **deliver better once it is tested.** 

### 14 **So, this NOPR is here to discuss** 

### 15 **testing protocols for dryers. And I am still** 

### 16 **here to say -- I came personally with my** 

### 17 **executive representative -- to share with the** 

### 18 **DOE that this room is not representing the** 

### 19 **best technologies for testing dryers that are** 

### 20 **going to be at some point offered to the U.S.** 

### 21 **public.** 

### 22 **And I am challenging everyone to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 please look at what I am saying, listen to**  

### 2 **what I am saying, and engage the technology** 

### 3 **for testing before you set standards in place** 

### 4 **for how you will test a clothes dryer, and you** 

### 5 **leave out and omit the best technology that is** 

### 6 **available today.** 

### 7 **UL approved our technology also in** 

### 8 **2009, I might say, and I am also familiar with** 

### 9 **James Battaglia. When I tried to get my dryer** 

### 10 **tested, and I submitted it to the Department** 

### 11 **of Energy and the NETL Laboratory, then it got** 

### 12 **sent back without being tested because it** 

### 13 **wasn't commercialized. So, I just want to** 

### 14 **make a statement to that effect.** 

### 15 **Testing is important for us. We** 

### 16 **want our dryers tested, so that it can become** 

### 17 **a part of the forum here at some future point** 

### 18 **in time.** 

### 19 **Thank you.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Now we will** 

### 21 **take other comments here at the outset. Other** 

### 22 **comments here at the outset?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 Joanna?**  

### 2 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.** 

### 3 **We are pleased to see that DOE has** 

### 4 **worked to address the issue of effectiveness** 

### 5 **of automatic-termination controls, which was** 

### 6 **raised by efficiency advocates and AHAM in a** 

### 7 **joint petition. We thank DOE for advancing** 

### 8 **this rulemaking.** 

### 9 **We generally support DOE's** 

### 10 **proposal in the NOPR for capturing the** 

### 11 **effectiveness of automatic-termination** 

### 12 **controls in the test procedure. However, we** 

### 13 **are unclear as to the purpose of the field** 

### 14 **adjustment factor of 0.8 which DOE has** 

### 15 **proposed in the NOPR. It seems as though,** 

### 16 **instead of reflecting field performance, the** 

### 17 **application of the field adjustment factor** 

### 18 **would actually result in energy consumption,** 

### 19 **as measured by the test procedure further** 

### 20 **diverging from field consumption.** 

### 21 **And in addition, NEEA has raised** 

### 22 **several additional test procedure issues, and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 we generally join in the comments that NEEA**  

### 2 **and the California IOUs will be making. Some** 

### 3 **of these issues include test load, initial** 

### 4 **RMC, and cycles per year.** 

### 5 **Thank you.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 7 **Other comments here at the outset?** 

### 8 **(No response.)** 

### 9 **Then, we will go to Stephen** 

### 10 **Witkowski.** 

### 11 **MR. WITKOWSKI: Good morning, and** 

### 12 **thank you. I will quickly go through the test** 

### 13 **procedure rulemaking timetable here and the** 

### 14 **legislative history.** 

### 15 **Could I see the first slide?** 

### 16 **Okay. Well, anyway, most of this** 

### 17 **you already know. But the NOPR was published** 

### 18 **in The Federal Register on January 2nd, 2013.** 

### 19 **Today is the public meeting for that NOPR.** 

### 20 **And what is particularly important for today** 

### 21 **are your comments on the NOPR from the** 

### 22 **interested parties.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1 Remember that the transcripts of**  

### 2 **the recorded oral comments will be published** 

### 3 **and, also, we strongly recommend that you** 

### 4 **submit written comments. This is your** 

### 5 **opportunity to express your interest, your** 

### 6 **concerns about the test procedure. Then, DOE** 

### 7 **will review all of the comments and then final** 

### 8 **rule publication.** 

### 9 **Next slide.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have a** 

### 11 **clicker up there?** 

### 12 **MR. WITKOWSKI: It didn't work** 

### 13 **right for me.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. WITKOWSKI: Anyway, just a** 

### 16 **quick overview of the test procedure and the** 

### 17 **issues that we expect to cover today.** 

### 18 **There will be a discussion of the** 

### 19 **covered products and proposed amendments to** 

### 20 **the test procedure; the automatic-termination** 

### 21 **cycle, which I know all of you or most of you** 

### 22 **are interested in; incorporation by reference**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 of IEC 62301, which is what we use now for**  

### 2 **measuring standby and off mode power;** 

### 3 **technical corrections to the per-cycle** 

### 4 **combined total energy consumption calculation;** 

### 5 **clarifications to the test procedure in** 

### 6 **general; the effects of the proposed test** 

### 7 **procedure revisions on compliance with the** 

### 8 **standards, and compliance with other EPCA** 

### 9 **requirements.** 

### 10 **The regulatory history is pretty** 

### 11 **straightforward. I am not going to go through** 

### 12 **this line-by-line. The history is there. So,** 

### 13 **in the interest of moving forward, let's --** 

### 14 **and again, the regulatory history is there.** 

### 15 **And now, it is time to get into** 

### 16 **the meat of the meeting, and we will start** 

### 17 **with products covered by the proposed** 

### 18 **amendments.** 

### 19 **James Battaglia of Navigant.** 

### 20 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Hi, everybody. I** 

### 21 **am James Battaglia.** 

### 22 **So, just to first cover the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 covered products for this rulemaking, the**  

### 2 **proposed amendments that we will be discussing** 

### 3 **today will cover both gas and electric clothes** 

### 4 **dryers, which are defined in DOE's regulations** 

### 5 **as cabinet-like appliances that are designed** 

### 6 **to dry fabrics in a tumble-type drum with** 

### 7 **forced-air circulation, with blowers, and the** 

### 8 **drum and blowers are driven by one or more** 

### 9 **electric motors. And the heat source is** 

### 10 **either gas or electricity. Now DOE is not** 

### 11 **proposing any amendments to these definitions** 

### 12 **at this time.** 

### 13 **Now, to get into the issues of** 

### 14 **automatic cycle termination, the current DOE** 

### 15 **test procedure in both Appendix D and D1** 

### 16 **currently requires that manufacturers apply a** 

### 17 **field-use factor to the per-cycle energy** 

### 18 **consumption measurement to determine the** 

### 19 **performance of automatic cycle termination.** 

### 20 **DOE recognizes that the current** 

### 21 **test procedure for automatic cycle termination** 

### 22 **does not distinguish between the type of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 sensor being used -- that is, whether it is a**  

### 2 **temperature sensor, a moisture sensor, or some** 

### 3 **other form of sensing -- and the accuracy and** 

### 4 **sophistication of the control system. Now,** 

### 5 **for automatic-termination dryers, they are** 

### 6 **currently assigned a field-use factor of 1.04,** 

### 7 **and timer dryers are assigned a field-use** 

### 8 **factor of 1.18.** 

### 9 **Now, in the last final rule for** 

### 10 **the test procedure that published in January** 

### 11 **of 2011, DOE did not adopt amendments for more** 

### 12 **accurately measuring the effects of automatic** 

### 13 **termination that were originally proposed in** 

### 14 **the SNOPR for that rulemaking. DOE had** 

### 15 **conducted testing for that rulemaking that** 

### 16 **showed that using the proposed automatic** 

### 17 **termination test method, all of the dryers** 

### 18 **tested significantly overdried the DOE test** 

### 19 **load to a near bone-dry state. As a result,** 

### 20 **the measured CEF was significantly lower than** 

### 21 **using the current test procedure.** 

### 22 **So, in that final rule, DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1 determined that the amendments that were**  

### 2 **proposed in the SNOPR for automatic** 

### 3 **termination did not adequately measure the** 

### 4 **energy consumption of automatic-termination** 

### 5 **dryers.** 

### 6 **Now DOE noted in that final rule** 

### 7 **that the clothes dryers with automatic** 

### 8 **termination sensing controls, which actually** 

### 9 **infer the RMC of the load, using either** 

### 10 **moisture or temperature sensing, may be** 

### 11 **designed to stop the cycle when loads that are** 

### 12 **composed of varying shapes and sizes and** 

### 13 **composition, when those loads have a higher** 

### 14 **RMC than the RMC using the DOE test load.** 

### 15 **Now in -- oh, sorry.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's pause there.** 

### 17 **Charlie Stephens, we have received** 

### 18 **a consultation from our tech folks. Let's try** 

### 19 **this because this might work. Everybody turn** 

### 20 **on your microphone, and then we will see if** 

### 21 **that helps to ungarble the sound that is being** 

### 22 **sent to the webinar participants.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 Charlie, you are next in the**  

### 2 **queue. You go first.** 

### 3 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, I am Charlie** 

### 4 **Stephens.** 

### 5 **I take it DOE did not do any** 

### 6 **testing of other loads other than the DOE test** 

### 7 **load when they were drawing the conclusions** 

### 8 **about the dryers might behave with a different** 

### 9 **load?** 

### 10 **MR. BATTAGLIA: For that testing,** 

### 11 **we did use the IEC/AHAM test load for that** 

### 12 **previous rulemaking.** 

### 13 **MR. STEPHENS: Okay.** 

### 14 **MR. BATTAGLIA: So, this was** 

### 15 **comparing the results for those.** 

### 16 **MR. STEPHENS: But I haven't seen** 

### 17 **anywhere any published results of what the** 

### 18 **RMCs actually were when you tested that load,** 

### 19 **and were they 5 percent or over/under 5** 

### 20 **percent?** 

### 21 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Yes, there is** 

### 22 **actually, in the NOPR there is a good amount**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 of data for the RMC using the IEC/AHAM test**  

### 2 **load. I believe it ranged from about 1.3 to** 

### 3 **4.7 percent.** 

### 4 **MR. STEPHENS: Okay. And so, we** 

### 5 **understand the bone-dry relationship, but the** 

### 6 **range of the data that I saw was substantially** 

### 7 **less than 5 percent. I mean, there was a lot** 

### 8 **of data there that was well under 5 percent,** 

### 9 **which seemed to be the behavior of the dryer.** 

### 10 **Is that true? Could that be said to be true?** 

### 11 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Sorry. Is that** 

### 12 **for the IEC test load?** 

### 13 **MR. STEPHENS: Right.** 

### 14 **MR. BATTAGLIA: That there was a** 

### 15 **wide range or --** 

### 16 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, there was a** 

### 17 **wide range, but, I mean, I think a lot of it** 

### 18 **was well under 5 percent. At termination of** 

### 19 **the auto-termination cycle, substantial** 

### 20 **amounts of the loads were well under 5 percent** 

### 21 **RMC.** 

### 22 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Yes, I believe the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 majority were. I would have to go back and**  

### 2 **look at the data, but it is probably between 1** 

### 3 **and 3 were the majority.** 

### 4 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, that is kind** 

### 5 **of my impression, too. Thank you.** 

### 6 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Michael?** 

### 8 **MR. BROWN: Michael Brown.** 

### 9 **I understand that the DOE doesn't** 

### 10 **distinguish between the type of sensors used** 

### 11 **for auto termination. Does the DOE specify** 

### 12 **the location of those particular sensors?** 

### 13 **MS. YOUNG: No, it does not.** 

### 14 **MR. BROWN: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. BATTAGLIA: That is just for** 

### 16 **the field-use factor that is applied to the** 

### 17 **test cycle energy consumption calculation, and** 

### 18 **it just applies to all dryers with automatic** 

### 19 **termination. So, currently, any dryer that** 

### 20 **has automatic-termination would receive that** 

### 21 **1.04 field-use factor.** 

### 22 **MR. BROWN: So, in effect, I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1 understand the field-use factor. So, in**  

### 2 **effect, the location of the sensors, then,** 

### 3 **themselves could be per se located in the** 

### 4 **exhaust of a dryer?** 

### 5 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Yes, that is** 

### 6 **correct.** 

### 7 **MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 9 **MR. BATTAGLIA: So, in August of** 

### 10 **2011, DOE published a Request for Information** 

### 11 **notice to further investigate the effects of** 

### 12 **automatic cycle termination and to request** 

### 13 **information and additional comments on this** 

### 14 **issue. In particular, DOE sought comment on** 

### 15 **the issues we have listed here. That is the** 

### 16 **characteristics of the loads of varying** 

### 17 **weights, composition, and size; the accuracy** 

### 18 **of different automatic-termination sensors and** 

### 19 **controls; the target final RMC used by** 

### 20 **manufacturers to maintain consumer** 

### 21 **satisfaction; the effects of the** 

### 22 **characteristics of the water for wetting the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1 load, and, in particular, the hardness and**  

### 2 **conductivity of the water; and, finally, the** 

### 3 **automatic-termination settings that were** 

### 4 **selected by consumers.** 

### 5 **Now, in response to the RFI, DOE** 

### 6 **received a joint stakeholder petition stating** 

### 7 **that DOE should amend the clothes dryer test** 

### 8 **procedure to include provisions to account for** 

### 9 **the effectiveness of automatic-termination.** 

### 10 **The petition specifically stated that DOE** 

### 11 **should amend the test procedure to include the** 

### 12 **full automatic-termination cycle, including** 

### 13 **the cool-down period and that the final RMC of** 

### 14 **using DOE test load should be no more than 2** 

### 15 **percent. And that 2 percent was based on data** 

### 16 **submitted by manufacturers representing, I** 

### 17 **believe it was 60 percent of shipments,** 

### 18 **showing that all of the tested dryers using** 

### 19 **the DOE load and the automatic-termination** 

### 20 **method dried the test load to below 2 percent** 

### 21 **RMC.** 

### 22 **The joint petition also stated**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1 that, if DOE adopts these amendments, DOE**  

### 2 **should also revise the relevant energy** 

### 3 **conservation standards. And, in particular,** 

### 4 **they said that DOE should select dryers that** 

### 5 **dried the test load to only 1.5 to 2 percent** 

### 6 **RMC, so that the updated standard represents** 

### 7 **test units with minimal overdrying. They also** 

### 8 **stated that, if DOE cannot select specific** 

### 9 **units, that DOE should continue to adopt the** 

### 10 **amendments, but not limit the sample of** 

### 11 **representative dryers.** 

### 12 **I believe we will have data later,** 

### 13 **but there are some issues with the final RMC** 

### 14 **that you will be able to see in the data that** 

### 15 **sometimes a higher RMC doesn't always** 

### 16 **correspond to a lower energy consumption or** 

### 17 **higher efficiency.** 

### 18 **So, in order to investigate -- oh,** 

### 19 **I'm sorry.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe pause.** 

### 21 **Michael, please.** 

### 22 **MR. BROWN: Right, Michael Brown.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1 In relationship to the RMC, has**  

### 2 **the DOE determined that there is an overdrying** 

### 3 **of articles of prewashed clothing that are** 

### 4 **being dried that are actually considered to be** 

### 5 **overdry? I understand DOE's current rule is** 

### 6 **that the RMC should be between 2.5 and 5.0.** 

### 7 **However, with this proposal here that I am** 

### 8 **seeing as far as the 2 percent, has not the** 

### 9 **DOE decided that there is, with the minimum** 

### 10 **being 2.5 current, that below 2.5 RMC would be** 

### 11 **actually overdrying loads? And if that is the** 

### 12 **case, that DOE has established for years, that** 

### 13 **2.5 is the actual lowest, what has DOE done to** 

### 14 **establish that 2.5 and less than that** 

### 15 **parameter is actually overdrying the clothes** 

### 16 **and, therefore, wasting energy?** 

### 17 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Well, I think the** 

### 18 **idea with lowering the target RMC of 2 percent** 

### 19 **is to sort of capture the differences between** 

### 20 **loads of varying weights and sizes that might** 

### 21 **be dried in the real world and the DOE test** 

### 22 **load, and how that reacts to the termination**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1 sensing controls and how those are set up.**  

### 2 **So, I believe the idea is that** 

### 3 **drying with the DOE test load on an automatic** 

### 4 **termination program, below 2 percent would be** 

### 5 **what would be representative of drying in the** 

### 6 **field.** 

### 7 **MR. BROWN: And you mentioned the** 

### 8 **real world load, which is not the same as the** 

### 9 **DOE load.** 

### 10 **MR. BATTAGLIA: That's correct.** 

### 11 **MR. BROWN: Okay. So, the 2** 

### 12 **percent, representative here in this RMC for** 

### 13 **testing purposes, is relative to a real-world** 

### 14 **load?** 

### 15 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Well, that RMC was** 

### 16 **based on the previous test procedure. And I** 

### 17 **believe there are certainly differences** 

### 18 **between what you would -- I believe the field** 

### 19 **use factors would attempt to somewhat correct** 

### 20 **for that.** 

### 21 **MR. BROWN: My purpose for asking** 

### 22 **about it is I have no information that the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1 Department of Energy had issued for what**  

### 2 **actually is a real-world load. Therefore,** 

### 3 **when we were trying to test a real-world load,** 

### 4 **there is no actual definition of what a real** 

### 5 **world load consists of from the Department of** 

### 6 **Energy's perspective. So, can you give me** 

### 7 **some clarification on where I might find the** 

### 8 **actual specific real-world load, so that we** 

### 9 **can actually begin testing of a real-world** 

### 10 **load, so we can see if our dryer will reach** 

### 11 **those levels of 2 percent?** 

### 12 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Well, I don't know** 

### 13 **that DOE has a definition of a real-world** 

### 14 **load. I think DOE recognizes that there is** 

### 15 **lots of different -- that the term "real-world** 

### 16 **load" is to recognize that there are varying** 

### 17 **composition weights and sizes that consumers** 

### 18 **are drying. So, I don't know that the term** 

### 19 **"real-world load" would be defined by a single** 

### 20 **load.** 

### 21 **MR. BROWN: Well, to make sure I** 

### 22 **understand, we are talking about testing a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1 real-world load that there is no clear**  

### 2 **definition of what that real-world load is?** 

### 3 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Well, I mean, I** 

### 4 **believe the idea is to capture differences** 

### 5 **between what happens in the field and** 

### 6 **developing a test procedure.** 

### 7 **MR. BROWN: Yes, I understand. I** 

### 8 **am lost on something here. I need your help** 

### 9 **here.** 

### 10 **I understand what the Department** 

### 11 **of Energy has prescribed for what is a DOE** 

### 12 **load or an AHAM load. I do not see** 

### 13 **information relative to a real-world load that** 

### 14 **the Department of Energy has adopted.** 

### 15 **So, when it comes to testing of a** 

### 16 **real-world load and the variable differences** 

### 17 **that one may receive from testing a real-world** 

### 18 **load, without knowing what a real-world load** 

### 19 **is, how does a company actually utilize that** 

### 20 **particular load for testing, so that we can** 

### 21 **understand what the proposal that the** 

### 22 **Department of Energy may be getting, or is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1 going to be actually enacted upon, so that**  

### 2 **companies, other companies, whether it is my** 

### 3 **company or whomever, may be able to** 

### 4 **effectively test those loads that are** 

### 5 **currently unclear? Can you help us understand** 

### 6 **that, please?** 

### 7 **MR. WITKOWSKI: I think we have a** 

### 8 **difference of opinion here about testing.** 

### 9 **MS. KOHL: It is okay. Go ahead.** 

### 10 **It is okay.** 

### 11 **MR. WITKOWSKI: I think we have a** 

### 12 **difference of opinion here --** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Stephen Witkowski.** 

### 14 **MR. WITKOWSKI: -- of how DOE** 

### 15 **undertakes and adopts its test procedures and** 

### 16 **what we test.** 

### 17 **And you are certainly welcome to** 

### 18 **submit in written comments any disagreement** 

### 19 **you have, but I think trying to take something** 

### 20 **such as a definition of a real-world load,** 

### 21 **which we all know is a nebulous concept -- we** 

### 22 **do the best that we can to look at the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1 information and the data that we have and that**  

### 2 **is supplied to us and make determinations on** 

### 3 **that.** 

### 4 **We can't say that this little** 

### 5 **thing is a real-world load. But if you have a** 

### 6 **comment or a suggestion or a definition that** 

### 7 **you would like to submit to us in writing, we** 

### 8 **would appreciate that.** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. This is** 

### 10 **Ashley Armstrong from DOE.** 

### 11 **I am going to attempt to address** 

### 12 **your question. There is no such thing as a** 

### 13 **DOE real load. What DOE has defined as a DOE** 

### 14 **test load, that assumes the DOE test load** 

### 15 **under certain drying conditions. What we** 

### 16 **noticed when we did testing was that, when** 

### 17 **using the DOE test cloth load, it seems that** 

### 18 **the RMC values were significantly lower than** 

### 19 **the 5 percent range. In other words, we saw** 

### 20 **ranging between 1 and 3 percent, roughly, RMC** 

### 21 **with the DOE test load. So, that is the** 

### 22 **cloth, not the real world.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1 The assumption there is that**  

### 2 **manufacturers are designing their dryers to** 

### 3 **what consumers would accept as a certain level** 

### 4 **of moisture in variance of loads in the real** 

### 5 **world. So, there is no such thing as a DOE** 

### 6 **real-world load, but what we saw is that level** 

### 7 **of overdrying in the DOE test cloth probably** 

### 8 **translates to varying levels of acceptance of** 

### 9 **moisture in a real-world load. Does that make** 

### 10 **sense?** 

### 11 **MR. BROWN: Yes. I guess what I** 

### 12 **would like to know -- thank you for that.** 

### 13 **Mike Brown. I would like to ask, to clarify,** 

### 14 **are you saying, then, in the course of this** 

### 15 **discussion that the real-world load, as** 

### 16 **described by Mr. Battaglia, that that load has** 

### 17 **not yet been defined? And I understand that** 

### 18 **the load has been tested by manufacturers who** 

### 19 **are submitting proposals for the changing of** 

### 20 **the RMCs relative to the real-world loads.** 

### 21 **I understand what you are saying** 

### 22 **in the sense that there is no clear definition**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1 of a DOE real-world load. My question is, are**  

### 2 **those undefined definitions of a real-world** 

### 3 **load going to be utilized as a part of a** 

### 4 **rulemaking for establishing an RMC for a test** 

### 5 **load that is yet to be defined?** 

### 6 **MR. RIVEST: I will try.** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Are you** 

### 8 **going to try a different way? Round three.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mike Rivest.** 

### 10 **MR. RIVEST: You know, to try and** 

### 11 **answer your question here, the test procedure** 

### 12 **currently assumes that a 5 percent RMC with** 

### 13 **the DOE test cloth is what is most** 

### 14 **representative of what is happening out there.** 

### 15 **And that is why the test procedure was set up** 

### 16 **that way. We don't have the full history of** 

### 17 **that 5 percent.** 

### 18 **But what we know is that, when we** 

### 19 **test existing dryers that have been designed** 

### 20 **to give consumers what they are looking for in** 

### 21 **terms of dryness, the results are not 5** 

### 22 **percent. They are more like 2 percent.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1 And what I understood the**  

### 2 **recommendation from the joint petitioners** 

### 3 **being is that they are correlating what is** 

### 4 **acceptable in the real world with a variety of** 

### 5 **different loads with 2 percent of DOE test** 

### 6 **load. So, there is not going to be in this** 

### 7 **proposal the definition of what a real-world** 

### 8 **load is. The test procedure will continue to** 

### 9 **be defined by the DOE test, but the standard,** 

### 10 **if you will, or the equation for determining** 

### 11 **the energy factor will be reset to 2 percent** 

### 12 **RMC.** 

### 13 **MR. BROWN: So, they are going to** 

### 14 **reset the -- Mike Brown here -- they are going** 

### 15 **to reset the RMC. This is the DOE that is** 

### 16 **going to reset the RMC?** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: No.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong.** 

### 19 **MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley** 

### 20 **Armstrong, DOE.** 

### 21 **Why don't we let James present our** 

### 22 **proposal? And it is going to walk through**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1 exactly what we are proposing and how the**  

### 2 **translation from 5 percent to 2 percent will** 

### 3 **work. And then, at the time, if we still have** 

### 4 **questions at the end of the day, we can go** 

### 5 **through it.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let's hear** 

### 7 **from Charlie, and then maybe we will return to** 

### 8 **James and let him go through his material.** 

### 9 **Charlie?** 

### 10 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes. Charlie** 

### 11 **Stephens.** 

### 12 **I think one of the things that may** 

### 13 **be confusing is that there is such a thing as** 

### 14 **a real-world load. I have data from 1800-plus** 

### 15 **of those, from real-world households washing** 

### 16 **real-world laundry. I have the remaining** 

### 17 **moistures from those. And so, that is real** 

### 18 **world loads and real-world data from real** 

### 19 **households.** 

### 20 **So, I think what DOE is trying to** 

### 21 **do is translate the energy use ultimately in** 

### 22 **that mode in real-world households, which I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1 have, like I said, more than 1800 loads'**  

### 2 **worth, to what you get from the same dryers in** 

### 3 **a test procedure.** 

### 4 **The whole idea here is to try to** 

### 5 **translate the test procedure to the real** 

### 6 **world. I have the real-world data. So, that** 

### 7 **is what you look at when you try to** 

### 8 **understand, okay, this dryer did this in the** 

### 9 **field with real clothes in real households** 

### 10 **with real people. This dryer did this with** 

### 11 **the DOE test load in the lab. How do you** 

### 12 **translate those two and make them** 

### 13 **representative, because DOE is required by law** 

### 14 **to produce a test procedure that reflects** 

### 15 **average use in the field?** 

### 16 **So, I think that is what we are** 

### 17 **going to hear, is an attempt to translate** 

### 18 **those things.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let James lay** 

### 20 **out the proposal, but Ashley first.** 

### 21 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Just one second.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley, get close**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1 to the microphone, please.**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: To follow on on** 

### 3 **Charlie's point, I just want to make clear** 

### 4 **that, when he is referencing -- and please** 

### 5 **correct me if I am wrong -- but when he is** 

### 6 **referencing his real-world data, I mean, that** 

### 7 **is the variance of household loads you would** 

### 8 **see from, you know, Household A down the block** 

### 9 **in a community.** 

### 10 **There is no such thing; he is not** 

### 11 **defining a real-world load. It may be towels,** 

### 12 **it may be jeans, it may be a mixture. It may** 

### 13 **be whites. So, when he is talking about his** 

### 14 **data, it is this variety that is seen. There** 

### 15 **is no such thing as a definition of a uniform** 

### 16 **real-world load from a DOE perspective.** 

### 17 **What we are trying to do is** 

### 18 **capture that variance that you might see and** 

### 19 **translate it into the DOE test cloth load.** 

### 20 **MR. BROWN: Mike Brown here.** 

### 21 **You are trying to capture that** 

### 22 **variance from a gas or an electric dryer?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1 Because I believe Mr. Stephens is referring to**  

### 2 **a heat pump dryer in his 1900, 1800 test?** 

### 3 **MR. STEPHENS: No, no, no.** 

### 4 **MR. BROWN: You are talking about** 

### 5 **an electric or gas dryer?** 

### 6 **MR. STEPHENS: No, no. All of our** 

### 7 **heat pump testing is in the lab. We don't** 

### 8 **have anything in the field.** 

### 9 **MR. BROWN: No, I mean the 1800** 

### 10 **tests you have already conducted. That is not** 

### 11 **a heat pump dryer test?** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: Oh, no, no, no.** 

### 13 **MR. BROWN: Okay.** 

### 14 **MR. STEPHENS: Like I said, we** 

### 15 **don't have any heat pump dryers in the field.** 

### 16 **MR. BROWN: Okay. So, I guess so** 

### 17 **I can clarify, the testing that we are talking** 

### 18 **about proposing to be changed in terms of the** 

### 19 **remaining moisture content is for electric and** 

### 20 **gas clothes dryers, and this is the testing** 

### 21 **protocols and the results that have come from** 

### 22 **all these loads, load testing? Is that RMC**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1 being looked at as being changed from 5**  

### 2 **percent down to previously, which I understand** 

### 3 **now the DOE has at 2.5 percent.** 

### 4 **Currently, if I am not mistaken,** 

### 5 **the rule from DOE is 2.5 percent is the** 

### 6 **minimum remaining moisture content. So, I am** 

### 7 **asking, is this a proposal to change that?** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let James lay** 

### 9 **this out. Let's see what he has got to say** 

### 10 **here, and then, we can evaluate from there.** 

### 11 **Okay?** 

### 12 **MR. BROWN: Okay.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jennifer, you want** 

### 14 **in before I move us on?** 

### 15 **MS. CLEARY: Yes, I just have one** 

### 16 **point of clarification. I think, Mike, that** 

### 17 **maybe earlier you were asking a question about** 

### 18 **the testing that we did in support of this** 

### 19 **petition with the 2 percent. And it sounded** 

### 20 **to me like maybe you were thinking that our** 

### 21 **testing was with a real-world load, and maybe** 

### 22 **that is where this was coming from. I might**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1 be misinterpreting. Is that what you were --**  

### 2 **MR. BROWN: Mike Brown here.** 

### 3 **MS. CLEARY: Is that your** 

### 4 **question?** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: I don't want to** 

### 6 **open this up again. Let's let James --** 

### 7 **MS. CLEARY: Well, I have a** 

### 8 **clarification on that that is very succinct.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 10 **MS. CLEARY: So, was that your** 

### 11 **understanding?** 

### 12 **MR. BROWN: When I hear the** 

### 13 **terminology used "real world," then I am** 

### 14 **thinking real world, and it is being** 

### 15 **differentiated between DOE and AHAM.** 

### 16 **MS. CLEARY: Okay. Well, our** 

### 17 **testing for this joint petition was done with** 

### 18 **the DOE test cloth.** 

### 19 **MR. BROWN: Thank you.** 

### 20 **MS. CLEARY: So, if that clarifies** 

### 21 **your question --** 

### 22 **MR. BROWN: That does clarify.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Now back to**  

### 2 **James. Go ahead, James.** 

### 3 **MR. BATTAGLIA: All right. Now,** 

### 4 **in order to evaluate potential amendments to** 

### 5 **the test procedure for automatic-termination,** 

### 6 **DOE tested a representative sample of 20** 

### 7 **clothes dryers. Now DOE conducted testing** 

### 8 **using the DOE test load, which is composed of** 

### 9 **24-by-36-inch momie test cloths that are a** 

### 10 **blend of 50/50 cotton and polyester.** 

### 11 **And DOE also conducted testing** 

### 12 **with the test load specified in the IEC and** 

### 13 **AHAM clothes dryer test procedures, and that** 

### 14 **is a load consisting of cotton bed sheets,** 

### 15 **towels, and pillowcases.** 

### 16 **Now, for the testing, DOE** 

### 17 **essentially used the current test procedure,** 

### 18 **but included modifications for automatic** 

### 19 **termination. And those for the cycle setting,** 

### 20 **DOE used the normal automatic-termination** 

### 21 **program. And also, where the temperature and** 

### 22 **dryness level settings can be chosen**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1 independently of that cycle selection or the**  

### 2 **cycle program selection, the temperature** 

### 3 **setting was set to the highest level and the** 

### 4 **dryness level was set to the normal or medium** 

### 5 **level.** 

### 6 **And then, the clothes dryer was** 

### 7 **then allowed to run until the completion of** 

### 8 **the automatic cycle, including the cool-down** 

### 9 **period, at which point the load was weighed to** 

### 10 **determine the final RMC. Now, if that final** 

### 11 **RMC was below 2 percent using the DOE test** 

### 12 **load, the test was considered valid. Now, if** 

### 13 **it was higher than 2 percent, the test was** 

### 14 **considered invalid and had to be rerun using** 

### 15 **the highest dryness level setting. And that 2** 

### 16 **percent RMC threshold was based on the data** 

### 17 **from the joint petition to show levels of RMC** 

### 18 **that are acceptable to consumers.** 

### 19 **Now, for the testing with the** 

### 20 **IEC/AHAM test load, DOE essentially used the** 

### 21 **same automatic-termination method, except that** 

### 22 **the threshold RMC was changed to 5 percent**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1 because of the more varied composition of that**  

### 2 **load.** 

### 3 **Now here we have presented the** 

### 4 **results from this testing. In the table here,** 

### 5 **we are showing the averages for each product** 

### 6 **class.** 

### 7 **Now the test results showed that** 

### 8 **the automatic-termination tests using the DOE** 

### 9 **test load, for those tests, all of the tests** 

### 10 **resulted in a lower measured CEF. That is a** 

### 11 **higher per-cycle energy use compared to the** 

### 12 **current DOE test procedure. And that ranged** 

### 13 **from a decrease of 3.5 percent to about 42** 

### 14 **percent. So, there was a wide range in that** 

### 15 **decrease of CEF.** 

### 16 **And similarly for the IEC/AHAM** 

### 17 **test load, there was, again, in every case the** 

### 18 **RMC was lower using the IEC/AHAM test load as** 

### 19 **compared to the DOE test load, and in that** 

### 20 **case ranging from about a 6 percent decrease** 

### 21 **to a 40 percent decrease.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: And I am not sure**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1 where to -- is this a good stopping point?**  

### 2 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Yes, sure.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Then, let's** 

### 4 **hear from Abigail first, and then to Chris.** 

### 5 **MS. DAKEN: This is a very quick,** 

### 6 **clarifying question. Was there any case where** 

### 7 **a product did not meet the 2 percent RMC with** 

### 8 **the automatic-termination cycle at all?** 

### 9 **MR. BATTAGLIA: I believe -- I** 

### 10 **would have to go back and check the data** 

### 11 **-- but I believe there was one that had to be** 

### 12 **rerun using the highest dryness setting. So,** 

### 13 **it was tested first with the normal setting,** 

### 14 **and then it was, I believe, slightly -- I am** 

### 15 **not sure exactly what the RMC was, but it was** 

### 16 **slightly above that 2 percent. So, it had to** 

### 17 **be rerun.** 

### 18 **MS. DAKEN: Okay. So, you don't** 

### 19 **anticipate a case where a product doesn't meet** 

### 20 **the final RMC of 2 percent, even on the most** 

### 21 **dry setting?** 

### 22 **MR. BATTAGLIA: We haven't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60**  **1 observed that.**  

### 2 **MS. DAKEN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 3 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris? And then,** 

### 5 **we will go back to you, Mike.** 

### 6 **MR. CALWELL: Yes, Chris Calwell.** 

### 7 **I was curious about the columns on** 

### 8 **the right for the IEC/AHAM load. You were** 

### 9 **showing on average about 20 percent lower** 

### 10 **efficiency compared to testing the DOE load,** 

### 11 **and that is to 5 percent RMC instead of 2.** 

### 12 **What if you dried it to 2?** 

### 13 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Well, I believe** 

### 14 **there are a number of cases -- in the NOPR we** 

### 15 **present the actual RMC that each of the tests** 

### 16 **tested to. And in some cases, it was below 2** 

### 17 **percent.** 

### 18 **So, I don't know that there would** 

### 19 **be an enormous difference between the drying** 

### 20 **to 5 percent and 2 percent. So, basically, we** 

### 21 **are letting the dryer run until the completion** 

### 22 **of the cycle and taking the energy consumption**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61**  **1 from that.**  

### 2 **MR. CALWELL: Yes, or maybe let me** 

### 3 **restate it. In general, what we found in the** 

### 4 **lab is that the ending part of the cycle is** 

### 5 **fairly inefficient. You know, it is somewhat** 

### 6 **difficult to remove the very last bit of water** 

### 7 **from the load.** 

### 8 **And so, if you saw a 20 percent** 

### 9 **efficiency difference under this more generous** 

### 10 **condition, if both tests had to do the same** 

### 11 **amount of work, I think that difference might** 

### 12 **widen further. And so, it points to whether** 

### 13 **the difference between the DOE results and** 

### 14 **what you would actually see in the field might** 

### 15 **be wider still as you attempt to get the** 

### 16 **conditions as similar to the field as** 

### 17 **possible.** 

### 18 **MR. BATTAGLIA: So, you are saying** 

### 19 **that you might see a higher energy consumption** 

### 20 **if you are drying to even lower RMCs with** 

### 21 **the --** 

### 22 **MR. CALWELL: A higher energy**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62**  **1 consumption and a lower efficiency.**  

### 2 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Michael?** 

### 4 **MR. BROWN: Michael Brown.** 

### 5 **The tests that were conducted by** 

### 6 **DOE, or at least the test results that were** 

### 7 **submitted to DOE, and that the DOE may be** 

### 8 **relying upon to provide this NOPR here today,** 

### 9 **what particular dryer are we talking about** 

### 10 **that was used to provide these test results?** 

### 11 **MR. BATTAGLIA: DOE selected a** 

### 12 **wide variety of dryers from different** 

### 13 **manufacturers.** 

### 14 **MR. BROWN: Is there anywhere in** 

### 15 **the NOPR here that actually says this is the** 

### 16 **type of dryer that was used to provide these** 

### 17 **test results, like electric dryer or gas** 

### 18 **dryer, and that particular model of either one** 

### 19 **of those?** 

### 20 **MR. BATTAGLIA: No, we do not** 

### 21 **provide that information.** 

### 22 **MR. BROWN: So, the information**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63**  **1 relative to these test results is coming from**  

### 2 **dryers that are not defined, is that correct,** 

### 3 **here in this NOPR?** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong.** 

### 5 **MS. ARMSTRONG: We are going to** 

### 6 **try this again. This is Ashley.** 

### 7 **If you have The Federal Register** 

### 8 **notice in your packet, turn to page 157, Table** 

### 9 **3-1. It doesn't provide manufacturer model** 

### 10 **numbers; it does provide features of the** 

### 11 **dryers that were tested, all 19, as part of** 

### 12 **this rulemaking. So, I think that is what you** 

### 13 **are looking for.** 

### 14 **MR. BROWN: Thank you.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. James.** 

### 16 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. Yes, I also** 

### 17 **just would like to point out, to what Chris** 

### 18 **said, in nearly every case for the IEC/AHAM** 

### 19 **test load, the measured CEF was actually lower** 

### 20 **than the CEF using the automatic-termination** 

### 21 **test method with the DOE test clause. So,** 

### 22 **there was that trend where the CEF with the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64**  **1 IEC/AHAM test load was, in fact, lower than**  

### 2 **the DOE test load.** 

### 3 **MR. CALWELL: And I think I just** 

### 4 **wanted to emphasize that that is consistent** 

### 5 **with our lab work as well. Anything you do to** 

### 6 **make the load in the lab more similar to what** 

### 7 **Charlie's data showed in the field increases** 

### 8 **energy use and reduces efficiency. And so, it** 

### 9 **makes the mathematical process of adjusting** 

### 10 **what you measure to reflect the real world** 

### 11 **become harder and more heroic. You know, the** 

### 12 **farther apart they get, the more it points to** 

### 13 **the question of whether you might want to just** 

### 14 **test a different load.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Chris.** 

### 16 **Abigail?** 

### 17 **MS. DAKEN: Abigail Daken. Thank** 

### 18 **you.** 

### 19 **I guess I just want to ask a** 

### 20 **question, put it out there for consideration.** 

### 21 **Is the intention of the test method to give** 

### 22 **data which reflects the amount of energy**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65**  **1 people will use in the field? Or is the**  

### 2 **purpose of the test method to give data which** 

### 3 **accurately represents the relative ranking of** 

### 4 **more- versus less-efficient products?** 

### 5 **And I would submit that the** 

### 6 **second, where we get the correct relative** 

### 7 **ranking but it is not a one-to-one reflection** 

### 8 **of what people can expect in the field, is a** 

### 9 **good test method.** 

### 10 **MS. KOHL: So, just to clarify** 

### 11 **real quick -- this is Betsy Kohl from DOE** 

### 12 **GC -- the statutory requirement for us is in** 

### 13 **42 USC 6293, and it talks about measuring the** 

### 14 **energy use, I believe it is of a** 

### 15 **representative average annual use cycle. I** 

### 16 **might not be getting the words quite right,** 

### 17 **but that is the standard that we are operating** 

### 18 **under.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Michael?** 

### 20 **MR. BROWN: I would just like to** 

### 21 **clarify. There is an understanding from our** 

### 22 **testing that to create or to deliver lower**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66**  **1 RMCs, typically, will inherently bring in more**  

### 2 **or create more energy consumption when you** 

### 3 **lower the RMC target. And also, you do lose** 

### 4 **or you deliver less in your energy factor.** 

### 5 **I am asking for clarification, if** 

### 6 **the Department of Energy is quite aware that,** 

### 7 **when you seek lower RMCs of today's dryers** 

### 8 **that are currently on the market, that that** 

### 9 **inherently will bring about lower energy** 

### 10 **efficiencies?** 

### 11 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Yes, I believe the** 

### 12 **idea is to try to capture the difference. We** 

### 13 **recognize that the DOE test load has to** 

### 14 **capture differences between loads of varying** 

### 15 **composition. So, there are going to be** 

### 16 **differences between what you are measuring. I** 

### 17 **don't know that we want to say that drying to** 

### 18 **below 2 percent RMC with the DOE test load is** 

### 19 **going to represent overdrying in the field as** 

### 20 **well. I believe there is a difference between** 

### 21 **the DOE test procedure and what you would** 

### 22 **expect. Dryers might be designed of varying**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67**  **1 loads and composition and size.**  

### 2 **MR. BROWN: Thank you.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. James, keep** 

### 4 **going.** 

### 5 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. Now DOE** 

### 6 **also, as part of the testing, we also looked** 

### 7 **at the final measured RMC from each test. For** 

### 8 **the DOE test load, the final RMC ranged from** 

### 9 **0.4 to 2 percent, and for the IEC/AHAM test** 

### 10 **load with the automatic-termination program,** 

### 11 **the final RMC ranged from 1.3 to 4.7 percent.** 

### 12 **And I should also note in the** 

### 13 **tables in the NOPR it shows that, for nearly** 

### 14 **all the units tested, the average final RMC** 

### 15 **was actually higher than the tests using the** 

### 16 **IEC/AHAM test load.** 

### 17 **And also, just to point to the** 

### 18 **correlation between the final RMC and the** 

### 19 **measured CEF, it didn't always correlate that** 

### 20 **a higher final RMC corresponded to a higher** 

### 21 **efficiency.** 

### 22 **Now DOE had received information**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68**  **1 from manufacturers that the test loads and**  

### 2 **types different from the test load specified** 

### 3 **in the DOE test procedure do not produce as** 

### 4 **repeatable and reproducible results. So, DOE** 

### 5 **also conducted testing to evaluate the test** 

### 6 **to-test variation.** 

### 7 **So, DOE conducted three repeat** 

### 8 **tests for each dryer tested, and that testing** 

### 9 **DOE used both the current DOE test procedure** 

### 10 **with both the DOE and substituting in the** 

### 11 **IEC/AHAM test load, and using that same basic** 

### 12 **time-dry method and, also, using the** 

### 13 **automatic-termination test method with both** 

### 14 **dryers. In both cases, the test-to-test** 

### 15 **variation was slightly higher than compared to** 

### 16 **the DOE test load.** 

### 17 **Charlie?** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stephens?** 

### 19 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 20 **I just wanted to add, for** 

### 21 **everybody's clarification, the last slide that** 

### 22 **I showed in my deck was a graphic of what**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69**  **1 James just described. It was the DOE data**  

### 2 **with the DOE test load and the IEC load. It** 

### 3 **was just a graphic of DOE's data.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 5 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. And DOE** 

### 6 **also conducted testing at a lab to evaluate** 

### 7 **the reproducibility of results from lab-to** 

### 8 **lab, taking into consideration different** 

### 9 **batches of test cloth. And the results from** 

### 10 **that showed that the percentage difference in** 

### 11 **the results between the labs was on average 3** 

### 12 **percent for the DOE test load and 4.7 percent** 

### 13 **for the IEC/AHAM test load. So, once you get** 

### 14 **from lab-to-lab, it does start to show a more** 

### 15 **significant increase in the reproducibility of** 

### 16 **results because you do have more variation** 

### 17 **from lot-to-lot of test cloth.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris?** 

### 19 **MR. CALWELL: Chris Calwell.** 

### 20 **This is just a clarification** 

### 21 **question for me because I don't recall, and I** 

### 22 **was trying to skim through The Federal**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70**  **1 Register to see if I could spot it. What is**  

### 2 **the allowable range of ambient humidities?** 

### 3 **MR. BATTAGLIA: In the test** 

### 4 **procedure, it is 40 to 60 percent.** 

### 5 **MR. CALWELL: Yes. So, I am just** 

### 6 **wondering, if the room can be anywhere between** 

### 7 **40 and 60 percent humidity when you are making** 

### 8 **the test, is it possible that that amount of** 

### 9 **variation would introduce more randomness or** 

### 10 **uncertainty in your test result than a lot of** 

### 11 **these other more precisely-specified** 

### 12 **conditions?** 

### 13 **MR. BATTAGLIA: That is certainly** 

### 14 **possible. I mean, there are obviously going** 

### 15 **to be various components of the test procedure** 

### 16 **that could introduce variability.** 

### 17 **MR. CALWELL: Or maybe even say it** 

### 18 **another way. Obviously, I know it is** 

### 19 **important to you to try to get that** 

### 20 **variability down as low as reasonable without** 

### 21 **spending too much money. So, if you had to** 

### 22 **accept a change in the test composition or the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71**  **1 test load that increased your uncertainty or**  

### 2 **your difficulty with repeatability, you might** 

### 3 **be able to change something else about the** 

### 4 **test procedure to reduce that uncertainty to** 

### 5 **compensate for it, such as specified a tighter** 

### 6 **range of allowable humidities?** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong?** 

### 8 **MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley.** 

### 9 **I think it is fair to say we could** 

### 10 **change, we could consider changing anything in** 

### 11 **the test procedure that we have results that** 

### 12 **show it impacted or it decreased the** 

### 13 **tolerances.** 

### 14 **So, to the extent you have results** 

### 15 **showing significant variance in humidity** 

### 16 **levels would decrease the -- or tightening the** 

### 17 **range would decrease the tolerance, perhaps I** 

### 18 **am not sure that DOE has data at this point** 

### 19 **showing such things. And tightening those** 

### 20 **levels is definitely a restriction on where** 

### 21 **you can test, and et cetera, et cetera.** 

### 22 **MR. CALWELL: Yes, I think that is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72**  **1 completely fair. We were just noticing that,**  

### 2 **since the job of the air coming into the dryer** 

### 3 **is to evaporate water, if the air starts with** 

### 4 **more water in it, it is relatively harder to** 

### 5 **evaporate more than if the air starts with** 

### 6 **less.** 

### 7 **So, we will take that as a** 

### 8 **recommendation to try to actually assess the** 

### 9 **impact of that variable and submit data.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: AS Stephen has** 

### 11 **said, written comments, right, to the** 

### 12 **Department.** 

### 13 **Now back to James.** 

### 14 **MR. CALWELL: And data.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: And data, yes.** 

### 16 **MS. WALTNER: One other quick** 

### 17 **clarification, if I could?** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Hey, I'm sorry.** 

### 19 **Yes, please, Meg.** 

### 20 **MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner with** 

### 21 **NRDC.** 

### 22 **I was just curious whether DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73**  **1 has --**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Might I ask, please** 

### 3 **-- you're doing well, Meg -- try to get these** 

### 4 **microphones close to your mouth, so that our** 

### 5 **webinar participants can hear everyone.** 

### 6 **Meg?** 

### 7 **MS. WALTNER: I was just wondering** 

### 8 **whether DOE has data on the lab-to-lab** 

### 9 **reproducibility with the current DOE test, for** 

### 10 **both the two columns on the left there, either** 

### 11 **with the current test cloths or with the** 

### 12 **IEC/AHAM test load?** 

### 13 **MR. BATTAGLIA: I would have to go** 

### 14 **back and check to see if we have that data.** 

### 15 **MS. WALTNER: Thank you.** 

### 16 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. So, as part** 

### 17 **of the automatic-termination testing, for the** 

### 18 **testing that we conducted at the independent** 

### 19 **test lab, we also collected data for the** 

### 20 **measured energy consumption and also the** 

### 21 **estimated instantaneous RMC throughout the** 

### 22 **test cycle.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74**  **1 And the data that we have shown**  

### 2 **here in the table, we looked at the energy** 

### 3 **consumption at different points of the cycle.** 

### 4 **So, taking a look at the energy consumption** 

### 5 **when the test load initially reached 5 percent** 

### 6 **RMC, when it initially reached 2 percent RMC,** 

### 7 **and also at the end of the test cycle,** 

### 8 **including after the cool-down period.** 

### 9 **Now the data in the table showed** 

### 10 **that the energy consumption measured over the** 

### 11 **full automatic-termination program was about,** 

### 12 **I believe, 11 to 72 percent greater than the** 

### 13 **energy consumption during the dry cycle, when** 

### 14 **the test load initially reached 5 percent RMC,** 

### 15 **and it was 4 to 62 percent greater than the** 

### 16 **energy consumption when the test load** 

### 17 **initially reached 2 percent RMC.** 

### 18 **We should also note that the final** 

### 19 **RMC at the end of the test cycle, which we** 

### 20 **have shown here in the parentheses on the** 

### 21 **right column, was achieved after an extended** 

### 22 **cool-down period during which the dryer**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75**  **1 tumbles with no added heat after the end of**  

### 2 **the heated drying or after an extended period** 

### 3 **of operation at nearly zero percent RMC, so at** 

### 4 **a bone-dry state, when the heater is cycling** 

### 5 **on and off.** 

### 6 **So, the data showed that during** 

### 7 **these non-heated cycling times, the test load** 

### 8 **was actually picking up moisture. So, the** 

### 9 **moisture at the end of the cycle was actually** 

### 10 **higher than the RMC of the test load when the** 

### 11 **heater shut off for the final time.** 

### 12 **MR. CALWELL: James, this is** 

### 13 **Chris. I wonder, could you just repeat the** 

### 14 **two ranges of percentages you gave? I wanted** 

### 15 **to make sure I followed exactly what you said.** 

### 16 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Oh, yes, sure. It** 

### 17 **is listed in the NOPR. It is 11 to 72 percent** 

### 18 **as compared to the 5 percent point and 4 to 62** 

### 19 **percent for the 2 percent point.** 

### 20 **And again, you can see here in the** 

### 21 **data for some cases, such as dryer 6 and I** 

### 22 **believe 15, the higher RMC, the final RMC**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76**  **1 actually resulted in a higher measured energy**  

### 2 **consumption.** 

### 3 **MR. CALWELL: So, does that mean,** 

### 4 **then, that, in effect, the dryers that were** 

### 5 **the smartest or the most able to determine** 

### 6 **when they had gotten to 2 percent and to stop** 

### 7 **promptly were using, say -- I took your range** 

### 8 **of 11 -- I'm sorry -- let's take 4 to 62** 

### 9 **percent, because that was the one that was** 

### 10 **relative to 2 percent RMC, if I followed you.** 

### 11 **So, the dryers that were the** 

### 12 **smartest would only use 4 percent more energy** 

### 13 **in the cool-down phase, and the dryers that** 

### 14 **were the least able to determine when to stop** 

### 15 **were using 62 percent more?** 

### 16 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Yes, that is what** 

### 17 **the data showed. And we will get to that on** 

### 18 **the next slide.** 

### 19 **MR. CALWELL: Okay. I mean, that** 

### 20 **is a fairly-remarkable finding, right? It** 

### 21 **says that auto-termination can work to a very** 

### 22 **wide -- it can vary quite widely in its**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77**  **1 effectiveness, as currently implemented.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Abigail?** 

### 3 **MS. DAKEN: Abigail Daken.** 

### 4 **A quick question. I see that** 

### 5 **these sensor technologies are listed as** 

### 6 **moisture or temperature. Were there no units** 

### 7 **that had both?** 

### 8 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Sorry?** 

### 9 **MS. DAKEN: Were there no units** 

### 10 **that had a moisture sensor and a temperature** 

### 11 **sensor?** 

### 12 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Oh, yes, they are** 

### 13 **actually, the moisture, the ones listed as** 

### 14 **moisture are actually moisture plus** 

### 15 **temperature sensing. Sorry.** 

### 16 **MS. DAKEN: Thanks. Forgive my** 

### 17 **ignorance.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, James.** 

### 19 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. And here we** 

### 20 **have the graph for the electric standard** 

### 21 **dryers. And this will show more clearly what** 

### 22 **is happening at the end of the cycle.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78**  **1 So, here in the graph we have**  

### 2 **shown the latter portion of the cycle,** 

### 3 **starting from when the RMC initially reached 5** 

### 4 **percent. And we have also marked off where** 

### 5 **the load initially reached 2 percent RMC.** 

### 6 **So, as you can see in the graphs,** 

### 7 **for all the tested dryers, the test load** 

### 8 **actually reached 2 percent RMC before the** 

### 9 **heater started cycling on and off in that** 

### 10 **cool-down period.** 

### 11 **And you can also see between** 

### 12 **dryers 4 and 6, which both used the same** 

### 13 **moisture technology, they resulted in a very** 

### 14 **different energy consumption because the dryer** 

### 15 **No. 6 had an extended period of non-heated** 

### 16 **tumbling and cool-down period, whereas dryer 4** 

### 17 **only achieved, it actually achieved a lower** 

### 18 **RMC, but only with a short cool-down period.** 

### 19 **And here we have similar results** 

### 20 **for gas clothes dryers. And again, you can** 

### 21 **see in all the cases the test load was** 

### 22 **reaching 2 percent RMC before the heater was**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79**  **1 cycling on and off. And for these cases,**  

### 2 **there was an extended period of non-heated** 

### 3 **tumbling.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris?** 

### 5 **MR. CALWELL: This is Chris.** 

### 6 **Did I follow, then, it looks like** 

### 7 **the dryers spent more of their total cycle** 

### 8 **time after they had reached 2 percent than** 

### 9 **they did getting to 2 percent?** 

### 10 **MR. BATTAGLIA: In some cases,** 

### 11 **yes. Or, yes, in some --** 

### 12 **MS. DAKEN: This plot doesn't show** 

### 13 **the part before they get to 5.** 

### 14 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Right. This is** 

### 15 **only showing --** 

### 16 **MR. CALWELL: It doesn't, but the** 

### 17 **graph does say 20 minutes --** 

### 18 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Right.** 

### 19 **MR. CALWELL: -- presuming that 20** 

### 20 **minutes is the amount of elapsed time before** 

### 21 **the graph started, right?** 

### 22 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Right.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80**  **1 MR. CALWELL: So, they got to 5**  

### 2 **percent RMC typically around 20 to 23 -- I'm** 

### 3 **sorry -- no, they got to 2 percent RMC around** 

### 4 **20 to 23 minutes. And they got to 5 percent** 

### 5 **around -- I can't quite tell -- 20ish minutes,** 

### 6 **21, 22.** 

### 7 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Yes.** 

### 8 **MR. CALWELL: Twenty-one, 22, and** 

### 9 **it looks like they ran to a period of, yes, 35** 

### 10 **to 45 minutes?** 

### 11 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Yes, that is** 

### 12 **correct.** 

### 13 **MR. CALWELL: Okay. Thanks.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Michael?** 

### 15 **MR. BROWN: Michael Brown.** 

### 16 **The data that I see here, that you** 

### 17 **have here, that data was conducted by the data** 

### 18 **testing that provided these results? This is** 

### 19 **data that was actually achieved by the** 

### 20 **Department of Energy's tests or data that was** 

### 21 **submitted by another company to the --** 

### 22 **MR. BATTAGLIA: This was DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81**  **1 testing.**  

### 2 **MR. BROWN: DOE testing? In the** 

### 3 **NETL facility?** 

### 4 **MR. BATTAGLIA: No, I mean, we** 

### 5 **tested at various labs, as we said, to** 

### 6 **evaluate reproducibility. So, this is at** 

### 7 **different labs.** 

### 8 **MR. BROWN: Okay. But what I am** 

### 9 **trying to clarify is the test data that I see** 

### 10 **here, which I will say all of it is inferior** 

### 11 **to what our test data shows for our hybrid** 

### 12 **electric dryer, which blows me away, this data** 

### 13 **comes from the Department of Energy testing a** 

### 14 **dryer in the Department of Energy's National** 

### 15 **Energy Testing Laboratory? Or where** 

### 16 **specifically was this data collected?** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: No, this comes** 

### 18 **from --** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong.** 

### 20 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.** 

### 21 **This comes from DOE testing** 

### 22 **products it bought off retail at third-party**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82**  **1 laboratories.**  

### 2 **MR. BROWN: Third-party** 

### 3 **laboratories?** 

### 4 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Third-party** 

### 5 **laboratories.** 

### 6 **MR. BROWN: So, these third-party** 

### 7 **laboratories are not representative of the** 

### 8 **Department of Energy's actual testing at a DOE** 

### 9 **laboratory? This is --** 

### 10 **MS. ARMSTRONG: There is no such** 

### 11 **thing as a DOE laboratory. We test at third** 

### 12 **party laboratories.** 

### 13 **MR. BROWN: All right. I need** 

### 14 **some clarification on that.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: And they are all** 

### 16 **accredited and all that.** 

### 17 **MR. BROWN: Okay. I need** 

### 18 **clarification on it.** 

### 19 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, you are more** 

### 20 **than welcome, if your test data is different** 

### 21 **than this, whether it is at your own facility** 

### 22 **or at a third-party facility, if you want to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83**  **1 submit it as part of your comments to this**  

### 2 **test procedure, you know, DOE is open to** 

### 3 **considering that.** 

### 4 **MR. BROWN: And I would like to** 

### 5 **ask a question relative to your statement that** 

### 6 **there is no such thing as a DOE laboratory for** 

### 7 **testing. And the reason why I am asking that** 

### 8 **is because I was requested to submit my dryer** 

### 9 **technology to the DOE National Energy Testing** 

### 10 **Laboratory in Morgantown, New York, in 2010,** 

### 11 **with James Battaglia and Judith Reich. And it** 

### 12 **was to be tested by the Department of Energy.** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.** 

### 14 **MR. BROWN: So, I am trying to** 

### 15 **clarify, when you say there is no such thing** 

### 16 **as a DOE testing laboratory, I submitted my** 

### 17 **technology to a DOE testing laboratory.** 

### 18 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So, the** 

### 19 **Department currently conducts all its testing** 

### 20 **at third-party laboratories. There is a** 

### 21 **variety of them out there, a variety of** 

### 22 **different companies, some of which are in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84**  **1 audience today.**  

### 2 **MR. BROWN: So, that has changed,** 

### 3 **is what you are saying? There is no longer a** 

### 4 **NETL Laboratory that is testing dryers, for** 

### 5 **instance, in this particular subject matter** 

### 6 **for testing dryers? It is all third-party?** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. There is** 

### 8 **no testing done --** 

### 9 **MR. BROWN: In relationship to** 

### 10 **third-party testing, do all of the test** 

### 11 **laboratories that are testing data and are** 

### 12 **submitting data to the Department of Energy,** 

### 13 **are all of those laboratories accredited?** 

### 14 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 15 **MR. BROWN: Thank you.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. James, back** 

### 17 **to you.** 

### 18 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. So, based** 

### 19 **on all this testing, DOE considered whether a** 

### 20 **field-use factor could be applied in the per** 

### 21 **cycle energy consumption calculation to** 

### 22 **account for the measured energy consumption at**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85**  **1 the end of the automatic-termination cycle for**  

### 2 **drying the DOE test load, recognizing the** 

### 3 **differences between loads of varying weights** 

### 4 **and sizes, and to represent the energy** 

### 5 **consumed drying the test load below 2 percent** 

### 6 **RMC, including any cool-down and non-heated** 

### 7 **tumbling.** 

### 8 **Now, using the data in the lab,** 

### 9 **DOE calculated a field-use factor of 0.80 by** 

### 10 **taking the difference between the measured** 

### 11 **energy consumption when the test load** 

### 12 **initially reached 2 percent RMC and the** 

### 13 **measured energy consumption at the end of the** 

### 14 **test cycle. And the final column here just** 

### 15 **shows the field-adjusted energy consumption at** 

### 16 **the end of the test.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna?** 

### 18 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.** 

### 19 **I am not sure I understand what** 

### 20 **you are trying to account for with the** 

### 21 **application of the field-use factor.** 

### 22 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Yes, I believe the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86**  **1 idea is to like capture the differences, how a**  

### 2 **dryer is designed to dry loads of varying** 

### 3 **composition versus how it reacts to drying a** 

### 4 **DOE test load. So, the way it senses a DOE** 

### 5 **test load will be different than how it reacts** 

### 6 **to a load of varying weights and sizes.** 

### 7 **MS. MAUER: So, I guess the** 

### 8 **roughly 20 percent or 25 percent difference** 

### 9 **you found in testing with the DOE test load,** 

### 10 **essentially, represents overdrying. So, using** 

### 11 **the DOE test load, or in other words the** 

### 12 **additional energy use, to dry clothes below 2** 

### 13 **percent? So, are you saying that you had** 

### 14 **suspected in the field those same dryers would** 

### 15 **not, in fact, consume any overdrying energy** 

### 16 **relative to a perhaps 5 percent or higher RMC?** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong.** 

### 18 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think the** 

### 19 **Department can definitively say that. I think** 

### 20 **what we are showing here is that we** 

### 21 **acknowledge that there will be some variance.** 

### 22 **We are not going to say there is never any**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87**  **1 overdrying in the field with a real-world test**  

### 2 **load, but with the uniform DOE test load, what** 

### 3 **we are seeing is pretty consistent overdrying,** 

### 4 **where we wouldn't expect manufacturers to be** 

### 5 **designing their products for consistently** 

### 6 **overdrying in the field.** 

### 7 **So, what we are trying to say is** 

### 8 **that there is probably some variance in the** 

### 9 **field. This is trying to account for that** 

### 10 **variance.** 

### 11 **MS. CLEARY: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 13 **I am a little confused. I keep** 

### 14 **hearing the term "overdrying," but that is not** 

### 15 **what I am seeing in the graphs that you just** 

### 16 **presented. What I am seeing is overuse of** 

### 17 **energy. The clothes reached 2 percent** 

### 18 **remaining moisture, but then they just, in the** 

### 19 **auto-termination cycle anyway, they just kept** 

### 20 **running, to the point where you had** 

### 21 **approximately a third of the energy used with** 

### 22 **quite a lot of variation, though, between**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88**  **1 clothes dryer, depending on how they**  

### 2 **implemented their technology.** 

### 3 **But we saw a third of the energy** 

### 4 **use after the clothes reached the overdried** 

### 5 **state of 2 percent. So, I am not sure why you** 

### 6 **are not making a correction in the other** 

### 7 **direction, if what we are actually after here** 

### 8 **is an appropriate level of energy use that is** 

### 9 **representative of energy use, not dryness, but** 

### 10 **energy use in the field.** 

### 11 **MR. BATTAGLIA: I think the idea** 

### 12 **is to capture -- the idea is that sensors in** 

### 13 **dryers on the market are designed to dry loads** 

### 14 **of varying weights and sizes. So, when it** 

### 15 **sees the DOE test load, it is going to react** 

### 16 **differently.** 

### 17 **So, when it is drying -- the test** 

### 18 **results showed, that we had showed, that** 

### 19 **drying after it reached 2 percent RMC, it kept** 

### 20 **going to close to zero, or in some cases close** 

### 21 **to zero or close enough to zero percent RMC** 

### 22 **before the end of the cycling and came back**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89**  **1 up. So, the idea is to capture the difference**  

### 2 **between how the sensors are going to react to** 

### 3 **different loads.** 

### 4 **MR. STEPHENS: Well, our data** 

### 5 **suggests, both in the lab and in the field,** 

### 6 **that they are going to continue to run the** 

### 7 **clothes for a much longer period of time. So,** 

### 8 **if you are field-adjusting the RMC, that is** 

### 9 **one thing. You are field-adjusting the energy** 

### 10 **use, correct? You are multiplying the energy** 

### 11 **use by .8?** 

### 12 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Right.** 

### 13 **MR. STEPHENS: I still am at a** 

### 14 **loss as to understand why you aren't** 

### 15 **multiplying it by 1.4.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley?** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you can** 

### 18 **submit that as your comment and as to the** 

### 19 **reasons why we should. Do you see what I am** 

### 20 **saying? I think it is a difference of -- I** 

### 21 **mean, I don't think you can assume from this** 

### 22 **graph that you are looking at that it is just**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90**  **1 drying to 2 percent RMC.**  

### 2 **So, in other words, I mean, you** 

### 3 **are seeing the heater come on. You will see** 

### 4 **the tumble cycling. And it is not clear -- we** 

### 5 **have pointed out 5 percent RMC and 2 percent** 

### 6 **RMC. What we haven't shown is the final RMC** 

### 7 **value at the end of the auto-termination** 

### 8 **cycle. If those were well below 2 percent** 

### 9 **RMC, it is not just tumbling, is the added** 

### 10 **issue.** 

### 11 **MR. STEPHENS: Well, I think you** 

### 12 **have our data and you have the RMC data from** 

### 13 **our tests. And I think you have the ability** 

### 14 **to look and see that the average drying cycle** 

### 15 **time to whatever RMC in the auto-termination** 

### 16 **mode most of the time, two-thirds of the time,** 

### 17 **was more than double the amount of time that** 

### 18 **the RMC numbers you are talking about here** 

### 19 **took to reach, which is to say under 25** 

### 20 **minutes.** 

### 21 **So, you saw that our average cycle** 

### 22 **time was 53 minutes. You saw that the energy**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91**  **1 use was more than double what you would get**  

### 2 **with the test procedure. So, I am trying to** 

### 3 **understand why you are correcting, why you** 

### 4 **propose to correct the energy use in the wrong** 

### 5 **direction.** 

### 6 **I mean, you have the data as to** 

### 7 **what real dryers do. I mean, if what you are** 

### 8 **correcting for here is what the dryer would do** 

### 9 **with a real load or with a more typical load** 

### 10 **than the DOE test load, then I would suggest** 

### 11 **you really should be looking at the data that** 

### 12 **you have got that suggests what it does do,** 

### 13 **which is use twice as much energy and take** 

### 14 **twice as long in the dryer before the cycle** 

### 15 **terminates.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, since you** 

### 17 **have all that data --** 

### 18 **MR. STEPHENS: They have all that** 

### 19 **data.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, but can you** 

### 21 **submit that in your comments?** 

### 22 **MR. STEPHENS: Well, I will, but I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92**  **1 did submit the data to DOE in May --**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 3 **MR. STEPHENS: -- of last year.** 

### 4 **So, I am presuming that they have the data to** 

### 5 **work with.** 

### 6 **I guess I am not questioning the** 

### 7 **data. I am questioning what they are** 

### 8 **proposing to do with it or what they haven't** 

### 9 **done with it. Maybe they didn't look at that** 

### 10 **part of the data, but --** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: We can re-look at** 

### 12 **the data. We have looked at your data.** 

### 13 **This is Ashley from DOE.** 

### 14 **This is our proposal. To the** 

### 15 **extent you disagree with it or have a** 

### 16 **different proposal in mind, feel free to** 

### 17 **submit it.** 

### 18 **MR. STEPHENS: Okay. You can be** 

### 19 **sure we will do that. I am just trying to** 

### 20 **understand your proposal because, for the life** 

### 21 **of me, I just can't grasp this at all.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93**  **1 I see Abigail.**  

### 2 **MS. DAKEN: Abigail Daken.** 

### 3 **Again, this is -- please forgive** 

### 4 **me because I am kind of new to dryers, and I** 

### 5 **am not sure that I am understanding it -- it** 

### 6 **sounds like there are two reasons that the** 

### 7 **field loads would have different results than** 

### 8 **the DOE load.** 

### 9 **One is that the DOE load would** 

### 10 **interact with the automatic-termination** 

### 11 **sensors differently. And it sounded to me,** 

### 12 **Ashley, like the explanation that you gave of** 

### 13 **the .8 was referring to that.** 

### 14 **The other reason that the field** 

### 15 **result would be different is because the loads** 

### 16 **are different. They are more mixed. They** 

### 17 **have higher dimensionality, so on and so** 

### 18 **forth.** 

### 19 **And I guess I didn't hear you say** 

### 20 **that the field adjustment, field-use factor** 

### 21 **was supposed to account for that. Is it** 

### 22 **supposed to account for that?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley?**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley** 

### 3 **from DOE.** 

### 4 **I think it is fair to say that the** 

### 5 **field-use factor is supposed to account for** 

### 6 **the differences between the DOE's test cloth** 

### 7 **and the variety of factors you would see in** 

### 8 **the field. So, it is both, yes.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris?** 

### 10 **MR. CALWELL: This is Chris** 

### 11 **Calwell.** 

### 12 **And so, given the field data you** 

### 13 **have seen, do you think 0.8 does that?** 

### 14 **MS. ARMSTRONG: That is our** 

### 15 **proposal.** 

### 16 **MR. CALWELL: Let me try it again.** 

### 17 **So, have you seen any measurements in the** 

### 18 **field that on average are lower than what you** 

### 19 **measure in the lab? Because .8 makes your** 

### 20 **number lower. I mean, it sounds elementary,** 

### 21 **but I am just trying to be as clear as I can.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95**  **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get what you are**  

### 2 **saying. It is not that I don't get it. I** 

### 3 **don't have the field data in front of me.** 

### 4 **What I am saying is, based on the** 

### 5 **field data, based on the test data we did,** 

### 6 **based on our knowledge of dryers, this is our** 

### 7 **proposal.** 

### 8 **MR. CALWELL: Okay.** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: To the extent you** 

### 10 **disagree with the proposal, you are more than** 

### 11 **welcome to make comments --** 

### 12 **MR. CALWELL: Sure.** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: -- about what an** 

### 14 **alternative proposal may be.** 

### 15 **MR. CALWELL: Okay. And one other** 

### 16 **question, if I could. Did I remember right** 

### 17 **that the 0.8 on average takes the results --** 

### 18 **let's see, how would I say this?** 

### 19 **You had an original standards** 

### 20 **proposal, I think, in 2011, right? There was** 

### 21 **an issued final standard. And that was when** 

### 22 **the dryers were measured a different way. Now**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96**  **1 we are proposing to measure them a new way.**  

### 2 **And if you multiply the results of the new** 

### 3 **measurements by .8, I think later in The** 

### 4 **Federal Register notice you said that it gives** 

### 5 **you a similar outcome to the old standard.** 

### 6 **And so, the standard doesn't need to be** 

### 7 **modified. Is that a fair summary of The** 

### 8 **Federal Register comment?** 

### 9 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Yes. Yes, we will** 

### 10 **get into that.** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: We did make that** 

### 12 **determination on average.** 

### 13 **This is Ashley.** 

### 14 **MR. CALWELL: Okay. So, I know we** 

### 15 **will get to that later, but I would just** 

### 16 **submit now from the California utilities'** 

### 17 **perspective, another alternative would be go** 

### 18 **ahead and measure the dryers in a new way,** 

### 19 **but, then, set the standard at the appropriate** 

### 20 **level from the real results you get. When?** 

### 21 **Thereafter, right?** 

### 22 **So, you have a 2015 effectiveness**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97**  **1 date, and I think that could hold. If you**  

### 2 **modify and set your final test procedure, you** 

### 3 **could modify your standard thereafter and be** 

### 4 **done a year and a half before your** 

### 5 **effectiveness date.** 

### 6 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to try** 

### 7 **that?** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Back to** 

### 9 **James. Keep going.** 

### 10 **Oh, wait, quickly.** 

### 11 **MS. MAUER: Sorry. Joanna Mauer.** 

### 12 **I am still just trying to** 

### 13 **understand the rationale. And so, if I** 

### 14 **understand correctly, a dryer that is tested** 

### 15 **with the DOE test cloths, DOE procedure, and** 

### 16 **shuts off exactly when it reaches 2 percent** 

### 17 **RMC for the first time, so that there is no** 

### 18 **cycling on and off for the heat or any** 

### 19 **additional energy consumption, by multiplying** 

### 20 **by .8, you are suggesting that in the field** 

### 21 **that dryer would actually consume 20 percent** 

### 22 **less energy than it is consuming during the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98**  **1 DOE test?**  

### 2 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Can you say that** 

### 3 **one more time? Sorry.** 

### 4 **MS. MAUER: So, a dryer that is** 

### 5 **tested under this proposal, and if it shuts** 

### 6 **off right when it reaches 2 percent RMC using** 

### 7 **the DOE test cloths, and when it reaches 2** 

### 8 **percent RMC for the first time -- so, not a** 

### 9 **case where it is going below 2 percent RMC and** 

### 10 **regaining moisture, but shuts off right at 2** 

### 11 **percent RMC, but, then, we are multiplying by** 

### 12 **.8. So, it seems to suggest that, it is kind** 

### 13 **of making the assumption that in the field** 

### 14 **that dryer would actually use 20 percent less** 

### 15 **energy than was measured during the test.** 

### 16 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Well, I mean, the** 

### 17 **idea is that, if it is stopping at 2 percent** 

### 18 **RMC, then that would be reflected in the test** 

### 19 **procedure.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: I see Judith Reich** 

### 21 **is here.** 

### 22 **Judith?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99**  **1 MS. REICH: Yes, Judith Reich from**  

### 2 **Navigant.** 

### 3 **I just want to comment that we did** 

### 4 **not see any machines that stopped right at 2** 

### 5 **percent RMC. They each had this additional** 

### 6 **period after initially reaching 2 percent RMC** 

### 7 **with various amounts of energy use and** 

### 8 **combinations of overdrying and moisture** 

### 9 **regain. And the .8 percent or the .8 factor** 

### 10 **is intended to capture the average behavior of** 

### 11 **all of these that, presumably, in the real** 

### 12 **world have been designed by manufacturers to** 

### 13 **get to a reasonable RMC with real-world** 

### 14 **clothing that consumers will accept. So, the** 

### 15 **.8 is that average percent of all of the** 

### 16 **machines that do this extra period of tumbling** 

### 17 **and potentially heating.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Charlie?** 

### 19 **And then, Chris.** 

### 20 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, I guess I** 

### 21 **wanted to ask Ashley in a different way.** 

### 22 **Currently, there is no energy guide label for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100**  **1 clothes dryers, correct?**  

### 2 **MR. BATTAGLIA: That is correct.** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: That is correct.** 

### 4 **MR. STEPHENS: Okay. Presumably,** 

### 5 **if there were an energy guide label, the** 

### 6 **number that would go on that label would be** 

### 7 **derived by this field-use factor as applied to** 

### 8 **the test results that you are proposing? Is** 

### 9 **that correct?** 

### 10 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I mean,** 

### 11 **presumably, DOE would -- the basis would be** 

### 12 **the DOE test procedure, and then, DOE would** 

### 13 **work with FTC to come up with some methodology** 

### 14 **for that number.** 

### 15 **MR. STEPHENS: Okay. And you** 

### 16 **believe on that basis that this would meet the** 

### 17 **legal test of 6293?** 

### 18 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I mean, we** 

### 19 **have proposed it.** 

### 20 **MR. STEPHENS: Okay.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris? And then,** 

### 22 **Michael.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101**  **1 MR. CALWELL: I was listening to**  

### 2 **Judith's comment and wanted to make sure I** 

### 3 **understood. Yes, it is true that none of them** 

### 4 **stopped immediately at 2 percent, but it** 

### 5 **sounds like the best of the ones that James** 

### 6 **described only used 4 percent more energy.** 

### 7 **So, they were quite close, and the energy** 

### 8 **penalty of determining when to shut off was** 

### 9 **extraordinarily low for the best dryers and** 

### 10 **quite poor for the worst ones.** 

### 11 **So, there is a meaningful** 

### 12 **efficiency difference that DOE has found in** 

### 13 **its laboratory, and it is a source of savings** 

### 14 **when manufacturers who take the poorly** 

### 15 **designed automatic-termination systems and** 

### 16 **replace them with well-designed automatic** 

### 17 **termination systems. They could save that** 

### 18 **difference that you measured. And yet, none** 

### 19 **of that savings potential was considered in** 

### 20 **your original standards analysis because you** 

### 21 **weren't measuring dryers this way at the time.** 

### 22 **That is the part I guess I am stumped by**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102**  **1 here.**  

### 2 **MR. BATTAGLIA: I think the test** 

### 3 **procedure as we have proposed it would still** 

### 4 **capture those differences between a dryer that** 

### 5 **is effectively drying like that, the one we** 

### 6 **showed, and one that is overdrying. So, that** 

### 7 **field-use factor is applied to all dryers.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We are all** 

### 9 **set? Okay. We are going to press on here, as** 

### 10 **a matter of time.** 

### 11 **And as reflecting Stephen's** 

### 12 **comment earlier, both your data and your** 

### 13 **comments about the way this was derived, those** 

### 14 **are all welcomed by the Department. So, let's** 

### 15 **make sure you get them in and do a good job of** 

### 16 **developing them.** 

### 17 **James, let's continue.** 

### 18 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. So, DOE** 

### 19 **also during its testing investigated the** 

### 20 **conditions of the water supply used for** 

### 21 **wetting the test load, and its review of test** 

### 22 **procedures, looking at the IEC procedure for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103**  **1 clothes dryers, IEC 61121, the Fourth Edition,**  

### 2 **which recently published, and notes in that** 

### 3 **procedure that the characteristics of the** 

### 4 **water being used for wetting the test load may** 

### 5 **influence the results for an automatic** 

### 6 **termination test, particularly for a dryer** 

### 7 **that uses moisture sensors.** 

### 8 **Now the IEC procedure provides the** 

### 9 **conditions we have listed here for the total** 

### 10 **hardness and conductivity of the water supply** 

### 11 **for both standard soft and hard water. And** 

### 12 **DOE conducted testing using the standard soft** 

### 13 **water to closely match the current test** 

### 14 **procedure, which requires soft water.** 

### 15 **Now the results that we have here** 

### 16 **in the table, again, this shows the averages** 

### 17 **for each product class for testing on 16** 

### 18 **clothes dryers. And those test results showed** 

### 19 **DOE was not able to observe any consistent** 

### 20 **trends between for the relationships between** 

### 21 **the two different water supply characteristics** 

### 22 **and the measured CEF.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104**  **1 And similarly, for the IEC/AHAM**  

### 2 **test load, DOE, again, was unable to determine** 

### 3 **any definitive correlation between CEF and the** 

### 4 **different test waters for both the DOE test** 

### 5 **water and the IEC test water.** 

### 6 **There is a good amount of data** 

### 7 **here. So, if anybody has questions?** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.** 

### 9 **MR. ECKMAN: I hate to go back,** 

### 10 **but I just want to remind DOE that the joint** 

### 11 **proposal that AHAM and the energy advocates** 

### 12 **made to DOE in terms of the petition was to** 

### 13 **remove the field-use adjustment factor and** 

### 14 **actually measure. So that what Chris pointed** 

### 15 **out would actually occur, that manufacturers** 

### 16 **would be encouraged to produce equipment that** 

### 17 **would terminate with only 4 percent instead of** 

### 18 **60 percent overdry. So, that was our original** 

### 19 **proposal to DOE. This goes back against that** 

### 20 **proposal.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Judith, go** 

### 22 **ahead.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105**  **1 MS. REICH: Yes. I would just**  

### 2 **like to comment that, you know, we understand** 

### 3 **what the intent of the proposal was. However,** 

### 4 **I think our understanding of the complexity of** 

### 5 **dryer behavior, it is a much more complex** 

### 6 **situation. They don't simply dry in one** 

### 7 **continuous reduction on RMC and stop when the** 

### 8 **sensor tells it that it has reached that** 

### 9 **level. It turned out to have much more** 

### 10 **unexpected behavior, I think, than anybody** 

### 11 **realized.** 

### 12 **And so, we are trying to do the** 

### 13 **best job to balance what the intent of the** 

### 14 **proposal is with what the reality of dryer** 

### 15 **behavior is, you know, recognizing we need to** 

### 16 **have reproducible and repeatable test methods** 

### 17 **that won't result in any backsliding. So, it** 

### 18 **is just trying to balance all these competing** 

### 19 **things while still recognizing we are trying** 

### 20 **to capture the performance of something that** 

### 21 **dries to a reasonable level.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. James.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106**  **1 MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. So, DOE**  

### 2 **again also evaluated the final RMC, test-to** 

### 3 **test variation and lab-to-lab reproducibility.** 

### 4 **And again, for the final RMC, again, DOE** 

### 5 **wasn't able to determine any definitive** 

### 6 **correlations between that final RMC and the** 

### 7 **DOE test water or the IEC test water. And** 

### 8 **again, for the test-to-test variation, DOE did** 

### 9 **not observe any significant difference in the** 

### 10 **repeatability between Appendix D1 and the IEC** 

### 11 **water.** 

### 12 **And also, DOE looked at a very** 

### 13 **small sample of dryers from lab-to-lab. While** 

### 14 **it did show a slight improvement in the lab** 

### 15 **to-lab reproducibility, that variation was on** 

### 16 **the same order of the lab-to-lab variation for** 

### 17 **the IEC/AHAM test load.** 

### 18 **So, based on this testing, DOE is** 

### 19 **not proposing to amend the test procedure to** 

### 20 **include the requirements for the modifications** 

### 21 **to the water supply based on the IEC 61121** 

### 22 **test procedure. However, if DOE receives**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 107**  **1 additional data that shows that the IEC water**  

### 2 **produces more repeatable and reproducible** 

### 3 **results, DOE may consider amendments in a** 

### 4 **future test procedure rulemaking.** 

### 5 **Now, getting into the proposed** 

### 6 **amendments, based on all the testing we have** 

### 7 **conducted, we are proposing to amend the test** 

### 8 **procedure to account for the effectiveness of** 

### 9 **automatic-termination. Now, starting with the** 

### 10 **definitions, DOE is proposing to include** 

### 11 **definitions for automatic-termination dryers** 

### 12 **and timer dryers. And automatic-termination** 

### 13 **dryers would be defined as dryers which can be** 

### 14 **preset to carry out at least one operation** 

### 15 **that would be terminated by means of a system** 

### 16 **that assesses, either directly or indirectly,** 

### 17 **the RMC of the load.** 

### 18 **And additionally, DOE is proposing** 

### 19 **to specify that any automatic-termination** 

### 20 **dryer that also has a timer or manual controls** 

### 21 **would be tested as an automatic-termination** 

### 22 **dryer.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 108**  **1 Now, for timer dryers, DOE is**  

### 2 **proposing to define those as dryers that can** 

### 3 **be preset to carry out at least one operation** 

### 4 **to be terminated by a timer or that may be** 

### 5 **manually controlled, and does not include any** 

### 6 **form of automatic-termination.** 

### 7 **Now, for the test load, based on** 

### 8 **DOE's results, we are not proposing to change** 

### 9 **the test load at this time. However, we are** 

### 10 **proposing to change the starting RMC, which in** 

### 11 **the current test procedure is 57.5 plus or** 

### 12 **minus 3.5. We are proposing to change that to** 

### 13 **57.5 plus or minus 0.33, to produce more** 

### 14 **repeatable results, particularly for the** 

### 15 **automatic-termination dryers.** 

### 16 **Now, if we were to allow a wider** 

### 17 **range in RMC, such as the plus or minus 3.5** 

### 18 **percent, it would result in very different** 

### 19 **results using the proposed automatic** 

### 20 **termination test method because a load with a** 

### 21 **starting RMC of, say, 61 percent, I believe it** 

### 22 **would have about a little over half a pound**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 109**  **1 more water than the test load that has a**  

### 2 **starting RMC of 54 percent.** 

### 3 **So, here we have our first** 

### 4 **official Request for Comment on the proposal** 

### 5 **to continue using the DOE test load. And,** 

### 6 **also, we are welcoming additional data on the** 

### 7 **test repeatability and lab-to-lab** 

### 8 **reproducibility for both the DOE and IEC** 

### 9 **loads.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Michael?** 

### 11 **MR. BROWN: Michael Brown,** 

### 12 **Hydromatic Technologies.** 

### 13 **Is it the DOE's position that the** 

### 14 **data acquisition equipment that utilized -- or** 

### 15 **I should say the equipment that is utilized** 

### 16 **for automatic-termination control for dryers** 

### 17 **is highly accurate components for assessing** 

### 18 **the remaining moisture content of a dryer?** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. Go** 

### 20 **ahead, James.** 

### 21 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Yes, I don't** 

### 22 **believe that is DOE's determination to make.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 110**  **1 The dryers have different sensing systems, and**  

### 2 **whether those are accurate or not, it varies** 

### 3 **among different dryers.** 

### 4 **MR. BROWN: Correct. Because what** 

### 5 **we are seeing in our testing laboratories in** 

### 6 **the field and in the lab are very wide** 

### 7 **variances of performance values for the** 

### 8 **automatic controls that are on today's** 

### 9 **existing clothes dryers. We are getting** 

### 10 **results where the dryer will achieve a level** 

### 11 **of 2 percent RMC and continue to run until the** 

### 12 **RMC reached negative zero percent. And we are** 

### 13 **seeing the dryers that are purchased directly** 

### 14 **from retailers that are put in laboratory** 

### 15 **testing and are tested with DOE loads, momie** 

### 16 **cloth loads, and are providing under automatic** 

### 17 **control instances and results where they are** 

### 18 **far from meeting what the Department of Energy** 

### 19 **is trying to create in terms of uniformity.** 

### 20 **And I am wondering how is the DOE** 

### 21 **going to provide uniformity for establishing a** 

### 22 **particular type of RMC for automatic-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 111**  **1 termination when the uniformity doesn't exist**  

### 2 **in the field or in the laboratory. I am** 

### 3 **trying to understand how the DOE is achieving** 

### 4 **the level of uniformity for setting its rules** 

### 5 **for the RMCs for automatic-termination when** 

### 6 **the actual components used to terminate a** 

### 7 **dryer are grossly inconsistent in their means** 

### 8 **of being able to auto terminate.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Judith Reich.** 

### 10 **MS. REICH: Yes, so DOE requires** 

### 11 **that the performance of a clothes dryer be** 

### 12 **measured and provides a sampling plan, so that** 

### 13 **the manufacturer must demonstrate that a** 

### 14 **sample of clothes dryers tested must meet the** 

### 15 **tolerances that are specified in the sampling** 

### 16 **plan among the results for the different** 

### 17 **units.** 

### 18 **That is in 10 CFR 429. I am not** 

### 19 **sure of the section.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: And right now, we** 

### 21 **are seeking comment on DOE's proposed change,** 

### 22 **starting the RMC 57.5 plus or minus 3.5 to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 112**  **1 57.5 plus or minus .33 percentage.**  

### 2 **Chris?** 

### 3 **MR. CALWELL: This is Chris** 

### 4 **Calwell.** 

### 5 **Regarding the specific request** 

### 6 **asked for here, the California utilities would** 

### 7 **recommend a change in the DOE test load. And** 

### 8 **the summary would be that the DOE test cloths** 

### 9 **are intentionally uniform in their thickness** 

### 10 **and in their horizontal and vertical** 

### 11 **dimensions. They are, by definition, two** 

### 12 **dimensional. They are thin, and they are 50** 

### 13 **percent synthetic.** 

### 14 **In the real world, most of the** 

### 15 **items we have seen in dryers are three** 

### 16 **dimensional. So, they have two interior sides** 

### 17 **that remain in contact with each other that** 

### 18 **are wet. And therefore, they don't see** 

### 19 **directly the warm air that is circulating in** 

### 20 **the dryer, and they are, by definition, harder** 

### 21 **to dry and harder to sense.** 

### 22 **Real-world clothing has diversity**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 113**  **1 in thickness. It generally has a higher**  

### 2 **cotton content. And these qualities could be** 

### 3 **represented with either of two already** 

### 4 **available official loads, the AHAM 1992 load** 

### 5 **developed in the U.S. by the relevant trade** 

### 6 **association or the Australian load.** 

### 7 **Charlie showed graphics of both of** 

### 8 **them, and we will submit data speaking to the** 

### 9 **questions you asked for here, which is what is** 

### 10 **the test-to-test repeatability when those** 

### 11 **loads are used. And we would urge DOE to** 

### 12 **consider that.** 

### 13 **I think the closer you can get to** 

### 14 **represent what people actually dry, the less** 

### 15 **you will need mathematical adjustment factors** 

### 16 **to try to turn what you are measuring into** 

### 17 **something people would actually see in their** 

### 18 **homes.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional** 

### 20 **comments based on this question box, this** 

### 21 **query?** 

### 22 **Tom Eckman.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 114**  **1 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman.**  

### 2 **Yes, given what Charlie showed** 

### 3 **earlier with respect to the field use of** 

### 4 **dryers in the Northwest, I don't think -- it** 

### 5 **is possible, but I think it is remote that** 

### 6 **using this RMC is the base condition for** 

### 7 **material entering the dryer. And the current** 

### 8 **DOE test procedure would get us energy** 

### 9 **consumption values that represent what the** 

### 10 **consumer is seeing.** 

### 11 **So, I am concerned that, while I** 

### 12 **agree that the tolerance by diminishing the** 

### 13 **range, that would improve the repeatability, I** 

### 14 **am concerned that without doing what Chris is** 

### 15 **suggesting, where we change the test load, we** 

### 16 **are able to get an energy consumption value** 

### 17 **out of the test procedure that represents** 

### 18 **field use.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional** 

### 20 **comments?** 

### 21 **James? Oh, yes, Jen, please.** 

### 22 **MS. AMANN: Jennifer Amann, ACEEE.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 115**  **1 We are also very supportive of**  

### 2 **further exploration of the clothes dryer, the** 

### 3 **test load, for the very issues that have been** 

### 4 **raised. I know I missed Charlie's** 

### 5 **presentation earlier, but I understand the** 

### 6 **issues that were raised.** 

### 7 **We are very interested that we get** 

### 8 **a test procedure that can reflect as** 

### 9 **adequately as possible with the issues about** 

### 10 **repeatability the in-field performance,** 

### 11 **recognizing that the test procedure is going** 

### 12 **to be used to determine standards going** 

### 13 **forward. And whatever we are missing in this** 

### 14 **round of the test procedure or revision has** 

### 15 **the potential to really affect our ability to** 

### 16 **get a standard that meets the requirements for** 

### 17 **DOE for a standard, and that meets the goals** 

### 18 **that we have for maximizing energy efficiency** 

### 19 **and reducing consumption from these products.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 21 **Yes, Jennifer?** 

### 22 **MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 116**  **1 I just was wondering if I could**  

### 2 **ask those of you who are suggesting to change** 

### 3 **the test load, are you intending with your** 

### 4 **suggestion that that would be changed for the** 

### 5 **2015 standard or sometime in the future?** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris?** 

### 7 **MR. CALWELL: For the California** 

### 8 **utilities, that is correct, yes. In essence,** 

### 9 **until you have final agreement on the dataset** 

### 10 **and the test procedure, it is difficult to set** 

### 11 **a standard. And so, the sequence I think** 

### 12 **would be revise and finalize the test** 

### 13 **procedure, revisit the standard, publish both** 

### 14 **in time to be effective for 2015.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Seeing no** 

### 16 **additional comments, James?** 

### 17 **Oh, Michael, a comment? Michael?** 

### 18 **MR. BROWN: Thank you.** 

### 19 **Michael Brown, Hydromatic** 

### 20 **Technologies.** 

### 21 **I would like to simply say I** 

### 22 **really didn't see these comments that are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 117**  **1 being made today in the proposals that the DOE**  

### 2 **is making known here today during this NOPR as** 

### 3 **being very valuable to myself, the corporation** 

### 4 **Hydromatic, and those who we try to serve, our** 

### 5 **constituencies.** 

### 6 **The proposals that we are to** 

### 7 **submit relative to dryer testing, it is a** 

### 8 **little bit difficult for me to make a proposal** 

### 9 **for submitting proposed changes to the dryer** 

### 10 **testing when the dryers that the DOE is** 

### 11 **currently evaluating are, in my honest** 

### 12 **opinion, inferior to what already exists that** 

### 13 **has not yet been tested from a third-party** 

### 14 **agency, which we are going to work harder to** 

### 15 **try to accomplish.** 

### 16 **I would just like to say, when I** 

### 17 **submit my comments and my data, that we are** 

### 18 **going to submit that data relative to a hybrid** 

### 19 **electric clothes dryer that is significantly** 

### 20 **more energy efficient and safer, and will** 

### 21 **achieve all the levels that the Department of** 

### 22 **Energy is looking for uniformity for RMCs and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 118**  **1 energy efficiency. And so, in the course of**  

### 2 **that, I would like to propose that the** 

### 3 **Department of Energy investigate the newer** 

### 4 **dryer technologies outside of electric and gas** 

### 5 **that they are currently relying upon for the** 

### 6 **subsequent energy ratings that are going to** 

### 7 **come out for dryers.** 

### 8 **And I would like the hybrid** 

### 9 **electric dryer to be considered as a product** 

### 10 **covered by the DOE that would provide what the** 

### 11 **Department of Energy is designed to do,** 

### 12 **provide consumers at some point with an** 

### 13 **energy-efficient product. So, I would just** 

### 14 **like to make that comment here at the table.** 

### 15 **And I thank everyone for all their** 

### 16 **comments that they have made in trying to help** 

### 17 **me understand what is going on here in this** 

### 18 **meeting.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. And the** 

### 20 **Department will welcome your comments.** 

### 21 **MR. BROWN: Thank you.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 119**  **1 Yes, Joanna?**  

### 2 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.** 

### 3 **Just to add on the test load, I** 

### 4 **mean, we certainly recognize the challenges** 

### 5 **associated with changing the test load, and I** 

### 6 **think realize that it may have to be a longer** 

### 7 **term action. I think we would encourage DOE** 

### 8 **perhaps as a longer-term action to consider** 

### 9 **changes in the test load.** 

### 10 **And just from an energy-savings** 

### 11 **perspective, I think the importance may really** 

### 12 **be that having a test load that better** 

### 13 **represents field loads may allow the test** 

### 14 **procedure to better capture certain technology** 

### 15 **options that may achieve significant energy** 

### 16 **savings in the field. And they may be** 

### 17 **technology options that can't be really** 

### 18 **captured with the DOE test load that could be** 

### 19 **reflected using a more representative load.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 21 **Jennifer?** 

### 22 **MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 120**  **1 Joanna, just to clarify on what**  

### 2 **you said, so are you suggesting that changing** 

### 3 **the test load could be something that could be** 

### 4 **done beyond 2015, so that for these** 

### 5 **amendments, we would continue with the** 

### 6 **existing test load and, then, look at changing** 

### 7 **the test load for whatever the future standard** 

### 8 **would be?** 

### 9 **MS. MAUER: I was involved with --** 

### 10 **I guess the most recent change tested was the** 

### 11 **clothes washer test load. But, from what I** 

### 12 **understand, it was a long and difficult** 

### 13 **process. So, assuming that it would also be a** 

### 14 **difficult process, it seems unlikely from my** 

### 15 **perspective that it is something that could be** 

### 16 **done and go into effect in 2015.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We are going** 

### 18 **to keep pressing on here. Shortly, I hope, in** 

### 19 **10-15 minutes or so, we are going to take a** 

### 20 **break. So, hang in there.** 

### 21 **James?** 

### 22 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. Yes, we are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 121**  **1 almost there.**  

### 2 **So, for the actual test cycle, DOE** 

### 3 **is proposing to require separate test methods** 

### 4 **for automatic-termination dryers and timer** 

### 5 **dryers. And for automatic-termination dryers,** 

### 6 **DOE is proposing to use the settings that we** 

### 7 **presented earlier that we used in our testing.** 

### 8 **Just to go quickly through them,** 

### 9 **we have proposed to use the normal cycle** 

### 10 **program, and for any dryers that do not have a** 

### 11 **normal program, the cycle recommended by the** 

### 12 **manufacturer for drying cotton and linen loads** 

### 13 **would be used. Where the drying temperature** 

### 14 **can be set independently of the cycle program,** 

### 15 **it would be set to the maximum. And where the** 

### 16 **dryness level setting can be chosen** 

### 17 **independently of the program, it would be set** 

### 18 **to the normal or medium level. And if such a** 

### 19 **designation isn't provided for the dryness** 

### 20 **level setting, it would be at the midpoint** 

### 21 **between the minimum and maximum values,** 

### 22 **settings. Sorry.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 122**  **1 And DOE is also requesting or**  

### 2 **proposing that the cycle settings be recorded** 

### 3 **for the tests.** 

### 4 **And then, again, for the test** 

### 5 **cycle, as we mentioned before, the dryer would** 

### 6 **be allowed to run until the completion of the** 

### 7 **cycle. And that 2 percent RMC would be used** 

### 8 **as the threshold. So, if anything was above 2** 

### 9 **percent RMC, it would be considered invalid** 

### 10 **and would have to be rerun on the highest** 

### 11 **dryness level setting.** 

### 12 **And again, that 2 percent RMC was** 

### 13 **based on the data in the joint petition, to be** 

### 14 **representative of dryers currently on the** 

### 15 **market and the maximum consumer-accepted RMC.** 

### 16 **Do you want to make a comment,** 

### 17 **Abby?** 

### 18 **MS. DAKEN: Yes, this is Abigail.** 

### 19 **I have a question. The completion** 

### 20 **of the cycle, including the cool-down, some** 

### 21 **dryers have, I guess, a wrinkle-prevention** 

### 22 **feature where at the end of the cycle they**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 123**  **1 will keep tumbling or tumble occasionally in**  

### 2 **order to keep clothes, presumably, from** 

### 3 **wrinkling. Would that be included? So, the** 

### 4 **end-of-cycle signal, if it is on, would occur** 

### 5 **before that? How would you determine the end** 

### 6 **of cycle in that case?** 

### 7 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Well, so later we** 

### 8 **will get into a few clarifications on the test** 

### 9 **procedure. What we state later is that DOE** 

### 10 **specifies the cycle settings for the** 

### 11 **temperature, the program temperature, and** 

### 12 **dryness, and does not specify any** 

### 13 **modifications to any other settings from the** 

### 14 **condition that it is shipped in.** 

### 15 **MS. DAKEN: But is the end of** 

### 16 **cycle defined as when the dryer stops doing** 

### 17 **anything? Or is it defined as when the dryer** 

### 18 **signals that the cycle is over?** 

### 19 **MR. BATTAGLIA: If there are** 

### 20 **different cases, we would certainly welcome** 

### 21 **examples of that. So, we would have to** 

### 22 **consider what the differences would be.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 124**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael?**  

### 2 **MR. BROWN: I am trying to** 

### 3 **understand clarification of this subject** 

### 4 **matter. The proposed test currently is the** 

### 5 **dryer is allowed to run until the completion** 

### 6 **of the cycle, including the cool-down period** 

### 7 **under the auto termination?** 

### 8 **MR. BATTAGLIA: That is correct.** 

### 9 **MR. BROWN: Okay. I am a little** 

### 10 **bit lost on something here. If the dryer is** 

### 11 **being operated on the auto-terminate cycle and** 

### 12 **it shuts off in, say, 20 minutes, then, does** 

### 13 **that constitute the end of the cycle?** 

### 14 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Yes, if it is** 

### 15 **using the settings that we have listed here** 

### 16 **and it stops the cycle at that point, if it** 

### 17 **meets the requirements for the 2 percent RMC,** 

### 18 **then that would be considered a valid test.** 

### 19 **MR. BROWN: Okay. Then, whereas,** 

### 20 **if the dryer is allowed to continue to run** 

### 21 **during the cool-down period, the cool-down** 

### 22 **period typically is at the end of the cycle,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 125**  **1 of a time-dry cycle.**  

### 2 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Right, and we will** 

### 3 **get to the time-dry proposal in a minute.** 

### 4 **MR. BROWN: What I am trying to** 

### 5 **understand and clarify, and gain some** 

### 6 **understanding of, is, if you are operating a** 

### 7 **dryer in an automatic-termination mode, there** 

### 8 **is no cool-down cycle where it would actually** 

### 9 **reach a cool-down period. It just shuts off** 

### 10 **when the clothes are dry.** 

### 11 **MR. BATTAGLIA: No, from what we** 

### 12 **have seen, dryers do have a cool-down period** 

### 13 **after an automatic cycle.** 

### 14 **MR. BROWN: Okay. Then, let me** 

### 15 **understand then.** 

### 16 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I chime in** 

### 17 **here maybe?** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley.** 

### 19 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, this is Ashley** 

### 20 **from DOE.** 

### 21 **So, what we have seen -- and you** 

### 22 **can see that from some of our graphs earlier -**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 126**  **1 - is that those that employ automatic**  

### 2 **termination, you know, what we specified here** 

### 3 **is that the cycle is finished when the auto** 

### 4 **termination cycle is finished. That auto** 

### 5 **termination cycle includes both the drying and** 

### 6 **this what you are calling tumbling time. So,** 

### 7 **it doesn't differentiate. It is all** 

### 8 **considered the cycle. And that would all be** 

### 9 **captured.** 

### 10 **MR. BROWN: So, the cycle you are** 

### 11 **speaking of, you are referencing, is not a** 

### 12 **time-dry cycle that has an automatic** 

### 13 **termination mode in it, or is it? It is a** 

### 14 **time-dry cycle with an automatic-termination** 

### 15 **feature in it?** 

### 16 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Well, time-drying** 

### 17 **and auto-drying are two separate methods --** 

### 18 **MR. BROWN: Right.** 

### 19 **MR. BATTAGLIA: -- to dry in a** 

### 20 **dryer.** 

### 21 **MR. BROWN: That is my** 

### 22 **understanding. Because if I set the dryer for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 127**  **1 60 minutes, it is going to run for 60 minutes.**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.** 

### 3 **MR. BROWN: And it is not going to** 

### 4 **shut off automatically.** 

### 5 **MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley.** 

### 6 **There are two different methods.** 

### 7 **There is the time-dry method and there is an** 

### 8 **auto-termination method.** 

### 9 **MR. BROWN: Okay.** 

### 10 **MS. ARMSTRONG: In the test** 

### 11 **procedure, it specifies both.** 

### 12 **MR. BROWN: Okay. So, for the** 

### 13 **purposes of this and my particular question** 

### 14 **here, a dryer is allowed to run. This is** 

### 15 **under the automatic-termination control?** 

### 16 **MR. BATTAGLIA: That is correct.** 

### 17 **MR. BROWN: The dryer is allowed** 

### 18 **to run until the completion of the cycle. My** 

### 19 **question is, what constitutes the completion** 

### 20 **of the cycle? Is it when the dryer actually** 

### 21 **shuts off, no matter what time that is, or is** 

### 22 **there some other definition of allowing the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 128**  **1 dryer to run until it reaches a cool-down**  

### 2 **period?** 

### 3 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Well, once the** 

### 4 **dryer shuts off, and that may include a cool** 

### 5 **down period.** 

### 6 **MR. BROWN: Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. BATTAGLIA: If the cool-down** 

### 8 **period is part of the automatic cycle, then it** 

### 9 **would end when the dryer completely shuts off.** 

### 10 **MR. BROWN: Okay. So, then, just** 

### 11 **so I can clarify, if the dryer shut off in 20** 

### 12 **minutes without achieving the cool-down cycle,** 

### 13 **that would be a valid test?** 

### 14 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Yes, if that is** 

### 15 **how it is employed.** 

### 16 **MR. BROWN: Yes. That is what I** 

### 17 **wanted to understand. Thank you.** 

### 18 **MS. REICH: This is Judith Reich.** 

### 19 **I just want to clarify. If the** 

### 20 **main drying cycle stops but there continues to** 

### 21 **be a cool-down period before all tumbling and** 

### 22 **all heating stops, then that cool-down is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 129**  **1 still part of the cycle because, presumably,**  

### 2 **it is not indicated to the consumer that the** 

### 3 **cycle is completed. So, it includes, if there** 

### 4 **is cool-down, it is all part of the cycle. It** 

### 5 **is considered part of it.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Meg?** 

### 7 **MR. BROWN: Thank you.** 

### 8 **MS. WALTNER: Judith, you started** 

### 9 **to answer my question, but DOE's intention is** 

### 10 **to end the test when the dryer indicates to** 

### 11 **the consumer that the cycle is over? Is that** 

### 12 **correct? So, it wouldn't capture, you know,** 

### 13 **the tumbling to prevent wrinkling, et cetera?** 

### 14 **You said before when the dryer is completely** 

### 15 **off. That is not quite correct. What you are** 

### 16 **intending is when it indicates to the consumer** 

### 17 **that the cycle is done? Sorry if I --** 

### 18 **MS. REICH: Yes, I mean, it is not** 

### 19 **specified in the proposal, but I believe that** 

### 20 **is correct. That intermittent tumbling for** 

### 21 **wrinkle prevention, on the units where we have** 

### 22 **seen it, that has been an option that is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 130**  **1 selected and would not be selected for the DOE**  

### 2 **test.** 

### 3 **MS. WALTNER: Okay.** 

### 4 **MS. REICH: So, as far as we know,** 

### 5 **the information we have is that the indicator** 

### 6 **to the consumer that the cycle is done occurs** 

### 7 **at the conclusion of any of that cool-down** 

### 8 **tumbling and would not include that** 

### 9 **intermittent wrinkle prevention.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley?** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I think the** 

### 12 **only clarification I would have to that is, if** 

### 13 **the wrinkle prevention is always incorporated,** 

### 14 **it would show up, in other words. Does that** 

### 15 **make sense. If it is part of the normal** 

### 16 **cycle, if it is always there, it would be** 

### 17 **included here.** 

### 18 **MS. WALTNER: Okay. Well, I don't** 

### 19 **know, just from my personal experience with my** 

### 20 **own dryer, it stops the cycle. But, then, if** 

### 21 **you don't get your clothes out, it will keep** 

### 22 **doing that wrinkle prevention indefinitely**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 131**  **1 every 30 minutes or so, until you open the**  

### 2 **dryer again. So, I just am trying to get --** 

### 3 **MS. REICH: I am not sure we can** 

### 4 **answer that because it depends on what it says** 

### 5 **to the consumer.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Judith, we can't** 

### 7 **hear you.** 

### 8 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I think it is** 

### 9 **going to be a case-by-case basis. But,** 

### 10 **obviously, based on the discussion, maybe we** 

### 11 **should think about clarifying.** 

### 12 **(Laughter.)** 

### 13 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Yes, and** 

### 14 **certainly, if you have examples of cases where** 

### 15 **that is happening, where it is built into the** 

### 16 **cycle, you can certainly let us know that in** 

### 17 **your comments.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Michael,** 

### 19 **final comment.** 

### 20 **MR. BROWN: Okay. So, I** 

### 21 **understand; that is a part of it also. The** 

### 22 **end-of-cycle or wrinkle-prevention mode for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 132**  **1 the dryers that we have, even though the dryer**  

### 2 **will terminate under auto termination, if it** 

### 3 **is in the wrinkle-prevention mode, it will** 

### 4 **continue to cycle off and on indefinitely** 

### 5 **until the dryer door is opened. So, it is the** 

### 6 **DOE's position that they will, I would say,** 

### 7 **clarify more what the end of the cycle** 

### 8 **actually means when a wrinkle cycle or wrinkle** 

### 9 **provision is provided in the test?** 

### 10 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I think what the** 

### 11 **DOE's position -- this is Ashley from DOE -- I** 

### 12 **think the DOE's position is that, based on the** 

### 13 **discussion today, based on the comments that** 

### 14 **we get in response to both the NOPR and the** 

### 15 **SNOPR, where we provided clarifications over** 

### 16 **these types of things, we will consider** 

### 17 **whether clarifications are needed as part of** 

### 18 **the final rule.** 

### 19 **To the extent you have specific** 

### 20 **examples where this wrinkle prevention is not** 

### 21 **a user-selectable option, but it is** 

### 22 **incorporated into the specific actual dryer as**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 133**  **1 part of the normal cycle, you know, obviously,**  

### 2 **we would welcome that. And that would lead** 

### 3 **towards part of our consideration for** 

### 4 **clarification.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's press on.** 

### 6 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. Let's see.** 

### 7 **Okay, yes. So, the DOE is also proposing to** 

### 8 **change the field-use factor, as we discussed,** 

### 9 **from 1.04 to 0.80 for automatic-termination** 

### 10 **dryers. And that was based on the data we** 

### 11 **presented earlier on the energy consumption** 

### 12 **versus the RMC, to account for the measured** 

### 13 **energy consumption at the end of the test** 

### 14 **cycle to dry the DOE load below 2 percent RMC.** 

### 15 **Now here we are seeking comment on** 

### 16 **the proposed automatic-termination test** 

### 17 **method, and that includes the final RMC of 2** 

### 18 **percent, the cycle, temperature, and dryness** 

### 19 **level settings for the tests, and that field** 

### 20 **use factor of 0.80. So, I know we have** 

### 21 **come --** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe we have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 134**  **1 covered this. But any final comments?**  

### 2 **Jennifer?** 

### 3 **MS. CLEARY: I just have a** 

### 4 **question. It is a little unclear in the** 

### 5 **tables presented in the NOPR which data is** 

### 6 **presented including the field-use factor of .8** 

### 7 **and which is presented without. So, just the** 

### 8 **titles don't make it totally clear. I mean, I** 

### 9 **think you can infer, but we were just** 

### 10 **wondering if it would be possible to clarify** 

### 11 **for each table whether the field-use factor is** 

### 12 **applied or not.** 

### 13 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Sure. We can do** 

### 14 **that, and as a rule of thumb, anything before,** 

### 15 **if you look in the NOPR, anything before the** 

### 16 **section that discusses -- or, actually, I will** 

### 17 **go through and clarify because it might be** 

### 18 **different in different places.** 

### 19 **MS. CLEARY: Thank you. And where** 

### 20 **can we look to find that clarification? Like** 

### 21 **how will we find out about it?** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: At break.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 135**  **1 MS. CLEARY: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. BATTAGLIA: We can do that.** 

### 3 **Okay. Moving on, so for the timer** 

### 4 **dryers, DOE is proposing to essentially use** 

### 5 **the same basic test method that is currently** 

### 6 **specified in Appendix D1, but with the** 

### 7 **following modification that we listed. And** 

### 8 **that is to change the final RMC from 1 to 2.5** 

### 9 **percent for the test.** 

### 10 **And DOE is also proposing to add a** 

### 11 **clarification that the dryer should not be** 

### 12 **stopped intermittently throughout the test for** 

### 13 **any reason. And this would be to prevent** 

### 14 **testers from stopping the dryer multiple times** 

### 15 **to remove and weigh the test load because that** 

### 16 **would produce significantly-different results,** 

### 17 **because of heat loss when you open the door.** 

### 18 **And for that time-dry cycle, DOE** 

### 19 **is also proposing to change the normalization** 

### 20 **and per-cycle energy consumption calculation** 

### 21 **to reflect that new target final RMC of 2** 

### 22 **percent. We are not proposing at this time to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 136**  **1 change the field-use factor for timer dryers**  

### 2 **of 1.18. And we are also not proposing to** 

### 3 **include the cool-down period because it would** 

### 4 **add a significant burden on testers to figure** 

### 5 **out and preset the appropriate time setting,** 

### 6 **and it could also introduce issues with** 

### 7 **repeatability because different combinations** 

### 8 **of the time-dry heating and cool-down could** 

### 9 **potentially result in the same final RMC.** 

### 10 **So, here we are seeking comment on** 

### 11 **the proposed time-dry test method. And that** 

### 12 **is the change in the RMC, the proposal to** 

### 13 **maintain the field-use factor, and the** 

### 14 **proposal to clarify that the dryer should not** 

### 15 **be stopped intermittently throughout the test** 

### 16 **cycle.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: And these slides** 

### 18 **that you have in your hands show both Item 3** 

### 19 **and Item 4. So, maybe we can address both of** 

### 20 **these at the same time.** 

### 21 **Chris?** 

### 22 **MR. CALWELL: This is Chris**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 137**  **1 Calwell.**  

### 2 **I was just curious if you have a** 

### 3 **rough market estimate of what fraction of the** 

### 4 **dryers sold today are timer dryers.** 

### 5 **MR. BATTAGLIA: I don't have the** 

### 6 **exact number, but there are very few, if any,** 

### 7 **like probably -- I can't comment on the exact** 

### 8 **number, but it is very few.** 

### 9 **MR. CALWELL: Yes, that was my** 

### 10 **sense as well. Essentially, you almost have** 

### 11 **to have some form of automatic termination to** 

### 12 **meet the standard.** 

### 13 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Right. And this,** 

### 14 **the proposal for timer dryers is just to** 

### 15 **provide, we have to provide methods for both** 

### 16 **types of dryers. So, it is to cover all** 

### 17 **cases.** 

### 18 **MR. CALWELL: Okay. Yes, I think** 

### 19 **the only other comment I would make is,** 

### 20 **because automatic-termination dryers are** 

### 21 **overwhelmingly dominant in the market, it puts** 

### 22 **added emphasis and importance and sort of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 138**  **1 scrutiny on doing that procedure as carefully**  

### 2 **as possible because it is sort of the central** 

### 3 **technology being employed to meet your** 

### 4 **standard.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jennifer?** 

### 6 **MS. CLEARY: I just received some** 

### 7 **input from someone on the webinar, that they** 

### 8 **haven't been able to receive the audio since** 

### 9 **10:30. I don't know if they have provided** 

### 10 **similar feedback on the webinar.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, I guess we** 

### 12 **could try it again. Apparently, it worked** 

### 13 **when we turned on all the microphones. And** 

### 14 **then, we had that feedback blast.** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Why don't we take** 

### 16 **a break?** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: We are about five** 

### 18 **minutes away from taking our break.** 

### 19 **MS. ARMSTRONG: No, we are there.** 

### 20 **MR. BATTAGLIA: I think we are at** 

### 21 **the break.** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: We are there.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 139**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: I know. I know,**  

### 2 **but I just wanted to make sure we receive** 

### 3 **comments on Item No. 4, because I wasn't sure** 

### 4 **we had done that yet.** 

### 5 **You see Item No. 4. It is slide** 

### 6 **32 in your packet. And we will take a break** 

### 7 **after we have received these comments.** 

### 8 **(No response.)** 

### 9 **Okay. No additional comments?** 

### 10 **Let's take a break. It is now 11:10. We will** 

### 11 **break for 15 minutes.** 

### 12 **Those of you who are not familiar** 

### 13 **with the Forrestal Building, you must wear** 

### 14 **this badge in the building.** 

### 15 **There are restrooms on both ends** 

### 16 **of the hall.** 

### 17 **We will resume at 11:25.** 

### 18 **There is a coffee shop on the** 

### 19 **ground floor, if you go down the elevator, and** 

### 20 **there is a big cafeteria -- you have got to go** 

### 21 **quickly -- in any case, about 100 yards that** 

### 22 **way on the ground floor.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 140**  **1 So, we will see you back here at**  

### 2 **11:25.** 

### 3 **And for those of you on the** 

### 4 **webinar, we will try to resolve the audio** 

### 5 **issue.** 

### 6 **(Whereupon, the foregoing matter** 

### 7 **went off the record at 11:09 a.m. and went** 

### 8 **back on the record at 11:25 a.m.)** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, let's resume.** 

### 10 **Please take your seats.** 

### 11 **For those of you that are joining** 

### 12 **us via the web, as I understand it or as we** 

### 13 **understand it, our webmaster over here is** 

### 14 **saying that one person has had difficulty** 

### 15 **hearing and participating, but many other** 

### 16 **individuals, 10-12 or so, are making sense of** 

### 17 **what is being said here; that they are able to** 

### 18 **participate.** 

### 19 **Let me also say, as I said at the** 

### 20 **outset, joining by the web, if you wish to** 

### 21 **comment, please raise your hand. We will fit** 

### 22 **you into this conversation. We don't want to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 141**  **1 deny anybody access here. So, that is the**  

### 2 **general plan.** 

### 3 **Now we are going to return to** 

### 4 **where we were.** 

### 5 **Oh, and I think that Brenda** 

### 6 **distributed a list of all the individuals that** 

### 7 **registered with their business cards, this** 

### 8 **Xerox copy. So, I hope that is useful to you.** 

### 9 **Now we are going to return to** 

### 10 **James and pick up where we left off, which I** 

### 11 **believe is slide 33.** 

### 12 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. So, now** 

### 13 **getting into standby and off mode, the test** 

### 14 **methods for those modes.** 

### 15 **Now the last final rule that DOE** 

### 16 **published in January 2011 incorporated** 

### 17 **provisions from IEC 62301, First Edition, for** 

### 18 **measuring standby and off mode power. And it** 

### 19 **also included some additional clarifications** 

### 20 **and adopted definitions of active, standby and** 

### 21 **off mode based on a draft version of the** 

### 22 **Second Edition, the Committee Draft for Vote.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 142**  **1 Now, for this SNOPR, because the**  

### 2 **IEC 62301 Second Edition published after the** 

### 3 **January 2011 final rule, DOE decided to** 

### 4 **consider the Second Edition for this** 

### 5 **rulemaking, and DOE determined that the Second** 

### 6 **Edition was an internationally-accepted test** 

### 7 **procedure and it does provide clarifications** 

### 8 **to certain conditions as compared to the First** 

### 9 **Edition.** 

### 10 **Now, for the power supply, the** 

### 11 **Second Edition, DOE is proposing to** 

### 12 **incorporate Section 4.4 of the Second Edition** 

### 13 **for the power-measuring instruments. Now DOE** 

### 14 **notes that it provides a more comprehensive** 

### 15 **specification for the required measurement** 

### 16 **accuracy. It requires the measurement of a** 

### 17 **crest factor, a power factor, and calculation** 

### 18 **of the maximum current ratio. And it also** 

### 19 **provides calculations for determining the** 

### 20 **allowable uncertainty in the maximum current** 

### 21 **ratio.** 

### 22 **And DOE determined that that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 143**  **1 uncertainty is the same or less stringent than**  

### 2 **the allowable uncertainty in the First** 

### 3 **Edition, and that the changes in the allowable** 

### 4 **uncertainty maintain sufficient accuracy of** 

### 5 **the measurements without placing undue burden** 

### 6 **on test instruments.** 

### 7 **So, the Second Edition requires** 

### 8 **that the value of the harmonic content of the** 

### 9 **voltage also be recorded during the test,** 

### 10 **along with the crest factor and maximum** 

### 11 **current ratio. And it also requires measuring** 

### 12 **the average power or the total integrated** 

### 13 **energy consumption.** 

### 14 **Now DOE is aware that certain** 

### 15 **power-measuring instruments can measure each** 

### 16 **of these values individually. However, DOE is** 

### 17 **aware that certain industry standard test** 

### 18 **instruments are unable to measure the harmonic** 

### 19 **content and crest factor while also measuring** 

### 20 **the average power or total integrated energy** 

### 21 **consumption.** 

### 22 **So, DOE is proposing that it would**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 144**  **1 be acceptable to measure, if a power**  

### 2 **measurement instrument can't make all those** 

### 3 **measurements during the test, it would be** 

### 4 **acceptable to measure the total harmonic** 

### 5 **content, crest factor, and maximum current** 

### 6 **ratio both before and after the test.** 

### 7 **The other major changes in the** 

### 8 **Second Edition involve the actual power** 

### 9 **measurement techniques. And the Second** 

### 10 **Edition contains a more detailed technique to** 

### 11 **evaluate the stability of the power** 

### 12 **consumption and to measure power consumption** 

### 13 **of loads with different stability** 

### 14 **characteristics. And it provides three** 

### 15 **different test techniques. Those are the** 

### 16 **sampling, average reading, and direct meter** 

### 17 **reading methods.** 

### 18 **Now, based on DOE's evaluation of** 

### 19 **each of these test methods, DOE is proposing** 

### 20 **to require the use of the sampling method from** 

### 21 **Section 5.3.2 of the Second Edition, which the** 

### 22 **IEC procedure specifies as the preferred**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 145**  **1 method for all power measurements.**  

### 2 **And DOE notes that the sampling** 

### 3 **method provides for a test duration that is** 

### 4 **approximately the same or similar to the** 

### 5 **allowable alternatives.** 

### 6 **And it does not require the** 

### 7 **classification of the nature of the power** 

### 8 **consumption, that is, whether it is stable or** 

### 9 **unstable or cyclic or non-cyclic, prior to** 

### 10 **running the test. So, a tester would be able** 

### 11 **to monitor the power during the test to** 

### 12 **determine the appropriate test duration.** 

### 13 **Now here -- oh, sorry, a question?** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 15 **MR. STEPHENS: Standard 62301** 

### 16 **includes a definition of a network mode. Does** 

### 17 **DOE also include that in its use of 62301 or** 

### 18 **require any of these products to be measured** 

### 19 **in network mode, as defined by 62301?** 

### 20 **MR. BATTAGLIA: That is not in** 

### 21 **this proposal, no.** 

### 22 **MR. STEPHENS: How does DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 146**  **1 propose to deal with that, given that most of**  

### 2 **these appliances are being shipped, or will be** 

### 3 **shipped very shortly, with the capability for** 

### 4 **demand-control response, smart-grid response,** 

### 5 **and given that these things, power consumption** 

### 6 **typically spikes up over 5500 watts when they** 

### 7 **are actually running. I think it is probably** 

### 8 **going to be one of the loads that is targeted** 

### 9 **as one that would be managed, and it does use** 

### 10 **power in the network mode in order to do that.** 

### 11 **So, I am kind of wondering how DOE intends to** 

### 12 **incorporate that.** 

### 13 **MR. BATTAGLIA: And we haven't** 

### 14 **considered that at this time. We are not** 

### 15 **aware of clothes dryers with network mode that** 

### 16 **are currently on the market. So, it becomes** 

### 17 **too difficult to develop a test procedure** 

### 18 **without actual products.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris?** 

### 20 **MR. CALWELL: Yes, this is Chris** 

### 21 **Calwell.** 

### 22 **We looked through the DOE database**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 147**  **1 that was recently published online of all the**  

### 2 **dryers, and the two most efficient electric** 

### 3 **models, the first one was from Miele and the** 

### 4 **second one was from Samsung. We have** 

### 5 **purchased both, and they are being tested in** 

### 6 **our lab right now.** 

### 7 **The Samsung does have the feature** 

### 8 **that Charlie described. It is the second-most** 

### 9 **efficient dryer on your dataset. And it logs** 

### 10 **into the wireless network of your house and** 

### 11 **will, among other things, send you an email** 

### 12 **when your laundry is done, which is an** 

### 13 **interesting feature.** 

### 14 **Right now, we don't know what the** 

### 15 **associated energy use is of that. We can** 

### 16 **measure it and submit data, but I think you** 

### 17 **might find -- as Charlie said, it is a new** 

### 18 **feature. It is not that common today. But,** 

### 19 **to the extent that Energy Star or others might** 

### 20 **be awarding a credit for dryers with smart** 

### 21 **grid capability, you probably would want to** 

### 22 **know what the energy use is in standby mode**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 148**  **1 for them to talk to the network.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley?** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, this is** 

### 4 **Ashley.** 

### 5 **DOE is working with EPA on smart** 

### 6 **dryers. We will be coming up with a test** 

### 7 **procedure for smart dryers as part of the** 

### 8 **Energy Star Program. Once we address it** 

### 9 **there, we will then also address it in** 

### 10 **baseline consumption as necessary.** 

### 11 **We are going through the same** 

### 12 **exercise right now with refrigerators.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?** 

### 14 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It just won't be** 

### 15 **here.** 

### 16 **MR. STEPHENS: Okay, but, then, my** 

### 17 **next question comes back to 62301. Is their** 

### 18 **definition of network mode, which is already** 

### 19 **defined in 62301, what you are using in your** 

### 20 **work with EPA? And if not, why not?** 

### 21 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that is** 

### 22 **beyond the scope of this setting, right? But**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 149**  **1 we could talk about that in terms of what we**  

### 2 **are doing. We just started doing the dryer** 

### 3 **effort for smart dryers. You can look at what** 

### 4 **we have done for connected refrigerators to** 

### 5 **see there. But I think it is beyond the scope** 

### 6 **of today's public meeting.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Michael?** 

### 8 **MR. BROWN: Michael Brown,** 

### 9 **Hydromatic.** 

### 10 **So, if I understand correctly, to** 

### 11 **connect the functionality is not a part of** 

### 12 **this discussion at this point in time? Is** 

### 13 **that correct? Thank you.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's see,** 

### 15 **Julia?** 

### 16 **MS. FARBER: Yes, Julia Farber** 

### 17 **from UL.** 

### 18 **Ashley, just while we brought up** 

### 19 **this topic of Energy Star, I was just curious** 

### 20 **if you might clarify how this rulemaking** 

### 21 **incorporate into the new version of the Energy** 

### 22 **Star Program that is due out this spring.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 150**  **1 MS. DAKEN: That is actually a**  

### 2 **question for me to answer. Abigail Daken.** 

### 3 **Basically, stay tuned. We are** 

### 4 **making that decision right now. We expect in** 

### 5 **the next week or two to get back to Energy** 

### 6 **Star dryer stakeholders on that very topic.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 8 **MS. FARBER: Thank you.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks to both of** 

### 10 **you.** 

### 11 **Okay, James.** 

### 12 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. And here we** 

### 13 **have a comment request on the adequacy of the** 

### 14 **Second Edition and the provisions we are** 

### 15 **proposing to incorporate for that.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional** 

### 17 **comments?** 

### 18 **(No response.)** 

### 19 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Move it on.** 

### 21 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Just to discuss a** 

### 22 **minor technical correction in the per-cycle**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 151**  **1 energy consumption, combined total energy**  

### 2 **consumption calculation, the current** 

### 3 **calculation just contains an incorrect section** 

### 4 **number. The per-cycle standby mode and off** 

### 5 **mode energy consumption, which is actually in** 

### 6 **Section 4.7, is incorrectly referenced as** 

### 7 **Section -- or sorry -- it is contained in 4.5,** 

### 8 **and it is incorrectly referenced as 4.7. And** 

### 9 **DOE is just proposing to correct this** 

### 10 **reference and welcoming comments on that.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Moving on.** 

### 12 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. So, DOE** 

### 13 **also received a number of inquiries regarding** 

### 14 **or requesting clarification on some of the** 

### 15 **test conditions for testing according to the** 

### 16 **current test procedures. And this section** 

### 17 **will address a few of those.** 

### 18 **Now, first, for the cycle** 

### 19 **settings, the first thing is about how to test** 

### 20 **a clothes dryer that has a time-dry cycle** 

### 21 **length, but no temperature sensing on the** 

### 22 **control panel. So, Section 3.3 of Appendix D**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 152**  **1 currently specifies that the maximum**  

### 2 **temperature setting and if it is equipped with** 

### 3 **a timer, the maximum time dryer setting should** 

### 4 **be used for the test.** 

### 5 **Now DOE is just proposing to** 

### 6 **clarify that, if the dryer does not have a** 

### 7 **separate temperature setting on the control** 

### 8 **panel, that the maximum time setting would be** 

### 9 **used for the test. And DOE is also proposing** 

### 10 **to include this change in Appendix D1 for the** 

### 11 **time-dry test method because that uses the** 

### 12 **same basic test method.** 

### 13 **Now, also, for the cycle settings,** 

### 14 **DOE received an inquiry about how to test a** 

### 15 **clothes dryer that has optional cycle setting,** 

### 16 **other than the temperature and time setting,** 

### 17 **that is activated by default in the condition** 

### 18 **that it is shipped in by the manufacturer.** 

### 19 **So, DOE is proposing to clarify in both** 

### 20 **Appendix D and D1 for that time-dry test** 

### 21 **method, that the test procedures only specify** 

### 22 **temperature and time settings and do not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 153**  **1 specify modifications to any other optional**  

### 2 **cycle settings that do not affect those** 

### 3 **temperature and time settings.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris?** 

### 5 **MR. CALWELL: Chris Calwell.** 

### 6 **So, I think this does bear on the** 

### 7 **conversation we had a little earlier about the** 

### 8 **extended wrinkle prevention. And just for** 

### 9 **absolute clarity, it sounds like what you are** 

### 10 **saying here is, if it does the after-cycle** 

### 11 **-- let's just call it "after-cycle" --** 

### 12 **tumbling by default, but you are able to** 

### 13 **optionally shut that off, would DOE optionally** 

### 14 **shut that off before it measures?** 

### 15 **MR. BATTAGLIA: I think what it is** 

### 16 **saying here is that, however it is shipped,** 

### 17 **the default mode would be the mode that is** 

### 18 **tested. If a product is shipped in that** 

### 19 **manner, then that is how we would test it.** 

### 20 **MR. CALWELL: Okay. And run** 

### 21 **indefinitely, as needed, to capture that** 

### 22 **energy?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 154**  **1 MR. BATTAGLIA: Correct.**  

### 2 **MS. DAKEN: One could argue, I** 

### 3 **suppose, that that -- this is Abigail Daken** 

### 4 **-- one could argue, I suppose, that that would** 

### 5 **affect the time. You know, depending on how** 

### 6 **DOE defines the end of the cycle, if the end** 

### 7 **of the cycle is when the buzzer goes off, then** 

### 8 **it wouldn't affect the time. If the end of** 

### 9 **the cycle is when the dryer ceases all** 

### 10 **activity, then it would affect the time. So,** 

### 11 **it should be turned off.** 

### 12 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Yes, and we can** 

### 13 **certainly take into consideration the wrinkle** 

### 14 **free, when exactly the end of cycle should be** 

### 15 **defined.** 

### 16 **MR. CALWELL: Yes, it sounds like** 

### 17 **there is just a little ambiguity there. And** 

### 18 **our sense is that it is a fairly new feature,** 

### 19 **but it is becoming more prevalent.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 21 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, I would also** 

### 22 **add there is some interaction here with 62301,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 155**  **1 when you go to measure standby and off mode**  

### 2 **energy consumption because, you know, you are** 

### 3 **having cyclical energy used here that kind of** 

### 4 **goes on indefinitely. And you may run into** 

### 5 **some problems trying to decide how and when to** 

### 6 **apply 62301 if you don't get that fairly clear** 

### 7 **about when the cycle actually ends in these** 

### 8 **cases.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 10 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. And DOE is** 

### 11 **also proposing to make a similar clarification** 

### 12 **in Appendix D1 for the automatic-termination** 

### 13 **test methods, that any other optional settings** 

### 14 **other than the cycle program, temperature** 

### 15 **settings and dryness settings, the test** 

### 16 **procedures do not specify any modification to** 

### 17 **those optional settings that do not affect the** 

### 18 **settings that we have listed.** 

### 19 **Now, for the gas supply** 

### 20 **requirements in Section 2.3.2 and in both** 

### 21 **Appendix D and D1, it specifies that the** 

### 22 **normal inlet test pressure of 7 to 10 inches**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 156**  **1 of water column must be maintained for the gas**  

### 2 **supply to the clothes dryer, and that the** 

### 3 **hourly Btu rating of the burner must be** 

### 4 **maintained within plus or minus 5 percent of** 

### 5 **the rating specified by the manufacturer.** 

### 6 **Now DOE received an inquiry noting** 

### 7 **that during testing a gas dryer under test, it** 

### 8 **was not able to meet the requirement to** 

### 9 **maintain the specified Btu rating under the** 

### 10 **allowable inlet test pressure. So, DOE is** 

### 11 **proposing to clarify in both Appendix D and D1** 

### 12 **that, if the dryer is unable to achieve the** 

### 13 **Btu rating within the allowable pressure, the** 

### 14 **orifice of the burner should be modified as** 

### 15 **necessary to meet that requirement.** 

### 16 **Now, again, in Section 2.3.2, for** 

### 17 **the gas supply requirements, it specifies that** 

### 18 **if a dryer is equipped with a gas appliance** 

### 19 **pressure regulator, the regulator outlet** 

### 20 **pressure at the normal test pressure must be** 

### 21 **approximately that recommended by the** 

### 22 **manufacturer, but it does not specify exactly**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 157**  **1 what approximately equates to.**  

### 2 **So, DOE noted that similar gas** 

### 3 **heating products, such as gas water heaters** 

### 4 **specify that the regulator outlet pressure** 

### 5 **must be maintained within plus or minus 10** 

### 6 **percent. So, DOE is proposing to include that** 

### 7 **same requirement here to replace the term** 

### 8 **"approximately".** 

### 9 **Now there are also a few** 

### 10 **additional inquiries that DOE received. I** 

### 11 **don't know if everybody has seen it yet, but** 

### 12 **DOE has issued a separate SNOPR, and we just** 

### 13 **want to address those in the public meeting** 

### 14 **today to get people's feedback.** 

### 15 **So, the first of those was** 

### 16 **regarding the console lighting. That is** 

### 17 **contained in the installation conditions in** 

### 18 **Section 2.1 of both Appendix D and D1. And it** 

### 19 **specifies that all console lights or other** 

### 20 **lighting systems that do not consume more than** 

### 21 **10 watts shall be disconnected from the dryer** 

### 22 **during the active mode test cycle.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 158**  **1 Now DOE noted that this provision,**  

### 2 **which was originally adopted in the September** 

### 3 **1977 final rule, was intended to apply to an** 

### 4 **older generation of clothes dryers existing at** 

### 5 **that time that were equipped with task lights** 

### 6 **that illuminate the area of the dryer for the** 

### 7 **consumers, and that did not provide any** 

### 8 **function or information related to the drying** 

### 9 **process.** 

### 10 **Now DOE notes that the newer** 

### 11 **generation of dryers that are equipped with** 

### 12 **electronic controls may have fully integrated** 

### 13 **control setting indicators, such as indicator** 

### 14 **lights that show the cycle progression,** 

### 15 **temperature, or dryness settings, or other** 

### 16 **cycle functions. And those are built directly** 

### 17 **into the control boards for the dryers.** 

### 18 **So, DOE is proposing to clarify** 

### 19 **this section to state that console lights or** 

### 20 **other lighting system refers to all lights** 

### 21 **such as task lights that do not provide any** 

### 22 **function or information during the drying**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 159**  **1 cycle related to the drying process.**  

### 2 **And DOE is also proposing to** 

### 3 **clarify that the control setting indicators,** 

### 4 **such as those that we listed on the last** 

### 5 **slide, such as for the dryness and temperature** 

### 6 **settings, that cannot be turned off during the** 

### 7 **cycle should not be disconnected for the** 

### 8 **active-mode test cycle.** 

### 9 **Now Section 3.1 in both Appendix D** 

### 10 **and D1 for the drum capacity measurement** 

### 11 **specifies that the drum shall be filled with** 

### 12 **water to a level determined by the** 

### 13 **intersection of the door plan and the loading** 

### 14 **port. In addition, it also specifies that** 

### 15 **volume should also be added or subtracted,** 

### 16 **depending on whether the plastic bag that is** 

### 17 **used for the capacity measurement protrudes** 

### 18 **into the drum interior.** 

### 19 **Now DOE received an inquiry** 

### 20 **regarding this provision. So, we are** 

### 21 **proposing to clarify that the intersection of** 

### 22 **the door plan refers to the uppermost edge of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 160**  **1 the drum that is in contact with the door**  

### 2 **seal, and that volume should be added or** 

### 3 **subtracted to account for any space that is** 

### 4 **not measured by the water fill. That is, for** 

### 5 **example, space occupied by the door protruding** 

### 6 **into the drum interior or space above the** 

### 7 **uppermost edge of the drum within a curved** 

### 8 **door.** 

### 9 **Now, for the weighing scale** 

### 10 **requirements, first, Section 2.4.1 for the** 

### 11 **test cloth weighing scale, specifies that the** 

### 12 **range of the scale must have a range of zero** 

### 13 **to a maximum of 30 pounds with a resolution of** 

### 14 **at least 0.2 ounces and a max error no greater** 

### 15 **than 0.3 percent for any values within the** 

### 16 **range of 3 to 15 pounds.** 

### 17 **And for the drum capacity** 

### 18 **measurement scale, it similarly requires a** 

### 19 **range of zero to 500 pounds with a resolution** 

### 20 **of half a pound and a max error of no greater** 

### 21 **than 5 percent of any measured value.** 

### 22 **So, DOE received an inquiry**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 161**  **1 regarding this, in particular, for the maximum**  

### 2 **range for each of the scale values. Now DOE** 

### 3 **recognizes that scales for weighing the test** 

### 4 **cloth may actually have a higher capacity than** 

### 5 **30 pounds, but it would still be able to meet** 

### 6 **the requirements for the resolution and the** 

### 7 **maximum error within the range of 3 to 15** 

### 8 **pounds that is specified in the test** 

### 9 **procedure.** 

### 10 **For the drum capacity** 

### 11 **measurements, a clothes dryer that is filled** 

### 12 **with water could potentially have a higher** 

### 13 **weight than 500 pounds. So, based on these,** 

### 14 **DOE is proposing to increase the range and** 

### 15 **allowable scale ranges for the test cloth up** 

### 16 **to 60 pounds and for the drum capacity scale** 

### 17 **for up to 600 pounds, but maintaining the** 

### 18 **resolution and maximum error requirements that** 

### 19 **are currently specified.** 

### 20 **And then, the final clarification** 

### 21 **is regarding the relative humidity** 

### 22 **measurement. Currently, on the test**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 162**  **1 procedure, it specifies that the dry and wet**  

### 2 **bulb psychrometer used for measuring the** 

### 3 **ambient humidity shall have an error of no** 

### 4 **greater than plus or minus 1-degree** 

### 5 **Fahrenheit.** 

### 6 **Now DOE recognizes that relative** 

### 7 **humidity sensors may be used in place of a dry** 

### 8 **and wet bulb psychrometer to measure the** 

### 9 **ambient humidity. And DOE also noted that** 

### 10 **certain humidity meters may express their** 

### 11 **error tolerances in degrees Fahrenheit for the** 

### 12 **dry and wet bulb temperatures, while others** 

### 13 **may express error in terms of the percent** 

### 14 **relative humidity.** 

### 15 **So, for that last one, in order to** 

### 16 **equate that to the current test procedure, DOE** 

### 17 **determined that, based on the allowable ranges** 

### 18 **of the temperature, which I believe are 72 to** 

### 19 **78 degrees Fahrenheit, and the humidity, which** 

### 20 **is 40 to 60 percent, the plus or minus 1-** 

### 21 **degree Fahrenheit tolerance would translate to** 

### 22 **a tolerance between plus or minus 2 percent**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 163**  **1 and plus or minus 4 percent within the**  

### 2 **allowable ranges for the relative humidity.** 

### 3 **So, based on this, DOE is** 

### 4 **proposing to allow the use of a relative** 

### 5 **humidity meter that has error tolerances** 

### 6 **expressed in degrees Fahrenheit that are** 

### 7 **equivalent to the current requirements for the** 

### 8 **dry and wet bulb psychrometer and, also, for** 

### 9 **humidity meters that have error tolerances of** 

### 10 **plus or minus 2 percent that are displayed in** 

### 11 **percent relative humidity.** 

### 12 **And here, we are seeking comment** 

### 13 **on all of these clarifications from the cycle** 

### 14 **settings to the last relative humidity meter.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, look at the** 

### 16 **comment request Box No. 7. You can see six** 

### 17 **different items that the Department is seeking** 

### 18 **comments on, should you have any.** 

### 19 **Chris?** 

### 20 **MR. CALWELL: Chris Calwell.** 

### 21 **The only one I would comment on** 

### 22 **here is the relative humidity that I mentioned**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 164**  **1 briefly before. There is a fairly short time**  

### 2 **between now and when the written comments are** 

### 3 **due. So, we will attempt to make some** 

### 4 **measurements of this for a few different** 

### 5 **models. But I guess my comment here now would** 

### 6 **be to encourage DOE to do the same.** 

### 7 **And the question might be for a** 

### 8 **handful of models, as you migrate from 40 to** 

### 9 **50 to 60 percent, what happens to measured** 

### 10 **energy use, drying time and measured** 

### 11 **efficiency?** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional** 

### 13 **comments?** 

### 14 **(No response.)** 

### 15 **Okay. I see none.** 

### 16 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. Now to** 

### 17 **address the effects of the proposed test** 

### 18 **procedure on compliance with the standards.** 

### 19 **In any test procedure rulemaking, DOE is** 

### 20 **required to determine how a proposed test** 

### 21 **procedure would alter the measured efficiency** 

### 22 **of covered products as compared to the current**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 165**  **1 test procedure. And if DOE determines that**  

### 2 **the amended test procedure would alter the** 

### 3 **measured efficiency, DOE must amend the** 

### 4 **applicable energy conservation accordingly.** 

### 5 **For Appendix D, DOE is only** 

### 6 **proposing to clarify the test conditions for** 

### 7 **the cycle settings, and so on, that we** 

### 8 **discussed in the last section. DOE notes that** 

### 9 **these proposed amendments would not affect the** 

### 10 **measured efficiency according to Appendix D,** 

### 11 **and therefore, would not affect a** 

### 12 **manufacturer's ability to comply with the** 

### 13 **current standards.** 

### 14 **Now, because the January 2015** 

### 15 **standards are based on the CEF, as measured** 

### 16 **according to Appendix D1, DOE investigated how** 

### 17 **the proposed amendments would affect the** 

### 18 **measured CEF, starting with the proposed** 

### 19 **active-mode amendments. Now DOE conducted** 

### 20 **testing on 20 dryers, and the results showed** 

### 21 **that the measured CEF was either higher or** 

### 22 **lower than the CEF as compared to the current**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 166**  **1 test procedure. And that ranged from about a**  

### 2 **27 percent decrease to about a 20 percent** 

### 3 **increase in CEF, with an average of about 4** 

### 4 **percent.** 

### 5 **Based on this, DOE tentatively** 

### 6 **concludes that the proposed active-mode** 

### 7 **amendments will, on average, for dryers** 

### 8 **currently on the market, would not impact the** 

### 9 **measured efficiency as compared to the current** 

### 10 **test procedure.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.** 

### 12 **MR. ECKMAN: So, this is assuming** 

### 13 **that the 80 percent field-adjustment factor is** 

### 14 **employed?** 

### 15 **MR. BATTAGLIA: That is correct.** 

### 16 **MR. ECKMAN: And what would happen** 

### 17 **if that was not?** 

### 18 **MR. BATTAGLIA: I think on a few** 

### 19 **of the earlier slides it showed that like a** 

### 20 **20-percent decrease. I don't have the exact** 

### 21 **average, but it was that range of maybe 10 to** 

### 22 **40 percent decrease in CEF.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 167**  **1 MR. ECKMAN: So, just looking at**  

### 2 **the map there of the 20 tested, given the** 

### 3 **percent increase was smaller than the percent** 

### 4 **decrease, yet the average was an increase, it** 

### 5 **means that more of the units failed than** 

### 6 **passed without the field-adjustment factor.** 

### 7 **MR. BATTAGLIA: I don't have the** 

### 8 **-- I can look at the exact numbers of how many** 

### 9 **were below.** 

### 10 **MR. ECKMAN: I mean, if you have a** 

### 11 **27 percent decrease and only a 20 percent** 

### 12 **increase, then the average is a 4 percent** 

### 13 **increase. The majority of that would have had** 

### 14 **to fail without the field-use-adjustment** 

### 15 **factor.** 

### 16 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. We can look** 

### 17 **at the data, but --** 

### 18 **MR. ECKMAN: I am going to make** 

### 19 **you say it.** 

### 20 **(Laughter.)** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley?** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 168**  **1 I think it is fairly clear,**  

### 2 **without the field-use factor, they pretty much** 

### 3 **all fail.** 

### 4 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.** 

### 5 **Just a clarification. So, if DOE** 

### 6 **were to decide not to apply the field-use** 

### 7 **factor, then the standards would be adjusted** 

### 8 **accordingly, such that on average a dryer that** 

### 9 **just complies with the 2015 standards under** 

### 10 **the current test procedure would still comply** 

### 11 **with the 2015 standards?** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Is that --** 

### 13 **MS. MAUER: I guess a** 

### 14 **clarification. That is my understanding of** 

### 15 **the statute.** 

### 16 **MR. BATTAGLIA: That is my** 

### 17 **understanding of the procedure.** 

### 18 **MS. MAUER: But it is a question,** 

### 19 **I guess, in case I misinterpreted it.** 

### 20 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I think our** 

### 21 **proposal is a reflection of what we did. Feel** 

### 22 **free to comment.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 169**  **1 MS. MAUER: Okay. Sorry. Joanna**  

### 2 **Mauer again.** 

### 3 **Just one observation. A 4 percent** 

### 4 **increase, it doesn't seem to me to be** 

### 5 **insignificant considering that the 2015** 

### 6 **standards will reduce energies by about 5** 

### 7 **percent compared to the current standards.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Chris?** 

### 9 **MR. CALWELL: Yes, Chris Calwell.** 

### 10 **I think it is interesting here** 

### 11 **that the swing was so wide. You know, at one** 

### 12 **end you had a 27 percent decrease and on the** 

### 13 **other end a 20 percent increase. On average,** 

### 14 **it might be a fairly small change, but dryers** 

### 15 **aren't qualifying on average. They are** 

### 16 **qualifying individually. And so, depending on** 

### 17 **the choice of technologies they used, this** 

### 18 **difference is profound.** 

### 19 **I guess if we had a range of** 

### 20 **heights of people in this room and the water** 

### 21 **level came up, we could say, on average, none** 

### 22 **of us are drowning, but some of us are and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 170**  **1 some of us aren't.**  

### 2 **(Laughter.)** 

### 3 **And so, it might be interesting to** 

### 4 **know what actually happens to the dryers, you** 

### 5 **know, rather than on average.** 

### 6 **We were testing dryers with the** 

### 7 **DOE test and otherwise, and one of my** 

### 8 **colleagues said that it looks like they are** 

### 9 **measuring precisely the wrong thing. And as I** 

### 10 **looked at the data and talked to folks and** 

### 11 **considered things, I think, no, that is not** 

### 12 **quite right. I think they are measuring the** 

### 13 **wrong thing precisely.** 

### 14 **There is a lot of precision around** 

### 15 **the test procedure. That part is good. It is** 

### 16 **admirable. It is repeatable, and so forth.** 

### 17 **But it is not necessarily measuring the right** 

### 18 **thing.** 

### 19 **And so, it seems like it is a** 

### 20 **convenient coincidence that the 20 percent** 

### 21 **adjustment factor that you have chosen is just** 

### 22 **what is needed to say the standard came out**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 171**  **1 about the same. But maybe, as Tom was saying,**  

### 2 **I think a more honest procedural approach** 

### 3 **would be change the test procedure to measure** 

### 4 **real-world -- I'm sorry -- to measure the real** 

### 5 **effects of automatic termination, and then see** 

### 6 **what standard needs to be selected to capture** 

### 7 **the cost effect of savings you observed. That** 

### 8 **seems like the most honest, literal reading of** 

### 9 **what the law asks you to do.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Ashley?** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. Okay.** 

### 13 **Additional, and perhaps final,** 

### 14 **comments on this section here?** 

### 15 **Yes, Jennifer?** 

### 16 **MS. CLEARY: I do have more** 

### 17 **comments, but I see there is a comment box** 

### 18 **coming up. Are we going to skip that one** 

### 19 **or --** 

### 20 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Sure. I think** 

### 21 **there is just one more slide. It should be** 

### 22 **pretty quick.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 172**  **1 MS. CLEARY: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. So, for the** 

### 3 **standby and off mode, DOE conducted testing** 

### 4 **both according to the current Appendix D that** 

### 5 **uses the First Edition and the proposed** 

### 6 **Appendix D1 that uses the Second Edition. And** 

### 7 **basically, just the testing showed that there** 

### 8 **was no difference in the measured values. So,** 

### 9 **as a result, DOE does not believe that the** 

### 10 **proposed standby and off mode amendments would** 

### 11 **affect the measured efficiency. So, DOE is** 

### 12 **not considering amendments to the current** 

### 13 **standards or the January 2015 standards.** 

### 14 **Sorry.** 

### 15 **And here we have the comment** 

### 16 **request.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jennifer?** 

### 18 **MS. CLEARY: Okay. Jennifer** 

### 19 **Cleary.** 

### 20 **I guess we have sort of similar** 

### 21 **comments that we have been hearing expressed** 

### 22 **already. AHAM, first of all, questions DOE's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 173**  **1 authority under EPCA to make de minimis**  

### 2 **determinations regarding the impact of test** 

### 3 **procedure changes on measured energy.** 

### 4 **We are also concerned that DOE's** 

### 5 **approach is ignoring the range that was just** 

### 6 **mentioned across basic models, you know, in** 

### 7 **situations like this where the average is zero** 

### 8 **or close to it, but the range is quite** 

### 9 **significant.** 

### 10 **We think that DOE's policies, when** 

### 11 **applied prior to an already promulgated, but** 

### 12 **not yet mandatory amended standard, undercuts** 

### 13 **the three-year lead-in period that is required** 

### 14 **by law, especially because of the** 

### 15 **grandfathering protections in 6293(e)(2) may** 

### 16 **not apply in many of these situations. So, we** 

### 17 **are quite concerned about this, and we will** 

### 18 **certainly provide more comments, more detail** 

### 19 **rather in our written comments, as well as** 

### 20 **data, if possible.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 22 **You can see the comment box there.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 174**  **1 Additional comments here?**  

### 2 **(No response.)** 

### 3 **MR. BATTAGLIA: All right. Now** 

### 4 **just to cover a few other EPCA requirements,** 

### 5 **first, for the test burden, EPCA requires that** 

### 6 **test procedures not be unduly burdensome to** 

### 7 **conduct.** 

### 8 **Now, for the proposed amendments** 

### 9 **for automatic-cycle termination, since we are** 

### 10 **proposing to use the full program cycle,** 

### 11 **including the cool-down period, and just** 

### 12 **allowing the dryer to run until the completion** 

### 13 **of the cycle, DOE believes that this will be** 

### 14 **less burdensome than the current test** 

### 15 **procedure because it wouldn't require testers** 

### 16 **to monitor or make any estimates about the RMC** 

### 17 **throughout the test to stop the dryer at the** 

### 18 **appropriate time.** 

### 19 **For the time-dry test method, DOE** 

### 20 **is proposing to use the same basic test** 

### 21 **method, except the test would be stopped at 1** 

### 22 **to 2.5 percent RMC. And while that would**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 175**  **1 result in a slightly-longer cycle time, DOE**  

### 2 **believes that the additional time would be** 

### 3 **minimal compared to the overall time required** 

### 4 **to set up and run a test.** 

### 5 **So, for these reasons, DOE does** 

### 6 **not believe that the proposed amendments for** 

### 7 **active mode would be a test burden.** 

### 8 **Now, for standby and off mode, the** 

### 9 **proposed amendments are based on the updated** 

### 10 **version of 62301, which has been the subject** 

### 11 **of significant review and input from** 

### 12 **interested parties. Now the provisions in the** 

### 13 **Second Edition provide a means to measure the** 

### 14 **power consumption with greater accuracy and** 

### 15 **repeatability than the provisions in the First** 

### 16 **Edition of IEC 62301.** 

### 17 **And DOE also notes that interested** 

### 18 **parties have commented in general that the** 

### 19 **test methods would not be unduly burdensome to** 

### 20 **conduct.** 

### 21 **Now the potential for increased** 

### 22 **test burden for certain power consumption**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 176**  **1 measurement requirements DOE notes would be**  

### 2 **offset by the more reasonable requirements for** 

### 3 **the testing equipment while maintaining** 

### 4 **sufficient accuracy.** 

### 5 **So, for these, DOE tentatively** 

### 6 **concludes that the proposed standby and off** 

### 7 **mode amendments would not be unduly burdensome** 

### 8 **to conduct. And here, we are just seeking** 

### 9 **comment on that issue.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris?** 

### 11 **MR. CALWELL: Yes, this is Chris** 

### 12 **Calwell.** 

### 13 **Can you remind me -- and this is** 

### 14 **just because we haven't done the test -- how** 

### 15 **long does it take to complete the DOE testing** 

### 16 **for a clothes washer relative to a clothes** 

### 17 **dryer? I mean just roughly.** 

### 18 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Judy, do you want** 

### 19 **to --** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Judith?** 

### 21 **MS. REICH: Judith Reich from** 

### 22 **Navigant.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 177**  **1 A clothes washer, on average,**  

### 2 **takes about three days to test.** 

### 3 **MR. CALWELL: And a clothes dryer,** 

### 4 **gosh, let's see, three runs, maybe a day, a** 

### 5 **day and a half? I mean, you have to calculate** 

### 6 **the burden. So, you might have an actual** 

### 7 **official estimate, but would that be about** 

### 8 **right?** 

### 9 **MR. BATTAGLIA: I mean, it depends** 

### 10 **on whether it is for compliance testing or** 

### 11 **not. But the DOE test procedure only requires** 

### 12 **one run. So, it is probably in the** 

### 13 **neighborhood of a couple of hours, I would** 

### 14 **say.** 

### 15 **MR. CALWELL: Yes.** 

### 16 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Sorry. A couple** 

### 17 **of hours for the active mode and, then, the** 

### 18 **additional hours for the standby and off mode.** 

### 19 **MR. CALWELL: Yes, so relatively** 

### 20 **more burden for the washer than for the dryer** 

### 21 **might be a fair statement.** 

### 22 **Part of why that interested us was**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 178**  **1 I think, when all this effort began, you know,**  

### 2 **decades ago, washers were using significantly** 

### 3 **more energy than dryers. And so, it would** 

### 4 **make sense that you might have to undergo more** 

### 5 **testing and do more work, in effect, to see** 

### 6 **how much energy they are using.** 

### 7 **Because washers have improved so** 

### 8 **much, at least the rough numbers that we have** 

### 9 **calculated said that a dryer now uses about** 

### 10 **three times as much energy as a washer on** 

### 11 **average. And this is not per cycle or** 

### 12 **anything else. It is just annual average,** 

### 13 **total consumption in the field.** 

### 14 **And so, I guess I would submit** 

### 15 **that it might be worth a little more test** 

### 16 **burden to determine how much energy they are** 

### 17 **actually using and to try to reduce it,** 

### 18 **because the relative size of the target is now** 

### 19 **larger. And the washer test burden has been** 

### 20 **justified in the past and accepted by industry** 

### 21 **for what is now a much smaller potential** 

### 22 **energy savings to be gotten. So, that would**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 179**  **1 be one comment.**  

### 2 **The second one is actually a** 

### 3 **question for AHAM. I know that, quite apart** 

### 4 **from all this energy testing, of course,** 

### 5 **manufacturers do a lot of other testing of** 

### 6 **other products for other reasons. And AHAM** 

### 7 **had certified this more diverse load that** 

### 8 **Charlie showed you earlier back in 1992.** 

### 9 **What do your members use that load** 

### 10 **for?** 

### 11 **MS. CLEARY: I think they use it** 

### 12 **for testing under our test procedure and** 

### 13 **probably a variety of other things. I would** 

### 14 **be glad to get back to you on that.** 

### 15 **MR. CALWELL: Yes. My sense was** 

### 16 **that it was probably developed at the** 

### 17 **manufacturers' request because they all wanted** 

### 18 **some standard way to know how their dryers** 

### 19 **would perform, not necessarily for energy** 

### 20 **reasons, but for whatever. You know, did the** 

### 21 **clothes get dry enough? How long did it take,** 

### 22 **whatever it might be?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 180**  **1 In other words, manufacturers have**  

### 2 **to test things to make sure that consumers** 

### 3 **will be happy with them. So, the DOE testing** 

### 4 **for energy is, in effect, an additional test** 

### 5 **beyond what you might run originally.** 

### 6 **If you already had a** 

### 7 **representative load that the industry was** 

### 8 **using to determine consumer satisfaction with** 

### 9 **the dryers, I would submit that simply** 

### 10 **measuring energy at the same time would be a** 

### 11 **lower test burden than coming up with an** 

### 12 **additional, less-representative DOE test and** 

### 13 **doing it in addition to the testing the** 

### 14 **manufacturers are already doing.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 16 **Additional comments related to** 

### 17 **active mode, standby and off modes?** 

### 18 **(No response.)** 

### 19 **MR. BATTAGLIA: Okay. Now EPCA** 

### 20 **authorizes DOE to enforce compliance with the** 

### 21 **standards established for certain consumer** 

### 22 **products. Now, for dryers, the certification**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 181**  **1 requirements consist of a sampling plan for**  

### 2 **the selection of units for testing and** 

### 3 **requirements for certification reports.** 

### 4 **Now, because DOE introduced the** 

### 5 **new CEF metric in the January 2011 final rule,** 

### 6 **DOE is proposing to include that in the CFR** 

### 7 **for the compliance requirements.** 

### 8 **And DOE is also proposing to amend** 

### 9 **the reporting requirements in the CFR for** 

### 10 **manufacturers when using Appendix D or D1 to** 

### 11 **provide an indication of whether the dryer has** 

### 12 **automatic-termination controls and, also, to** 

### 13 **report the hourly Btu rating of the burner for** 

### 14 **gas dryers.** 

### 15 **And when using Appendix D, DOE is** 

### 16 **also requiring manufacturers to report, to** 

### 17 **list the cycle settings and also the CEF,** 

### 18 **which I don't think I listed here, but we are** 

### 19 **also proposing to include that.** 

### 20 **Now, for the compliance date, DOE** 

### 21 **has issued guidance previously that** 

### 22 **manufacturers may voluntarily use a newly-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 182**  **1 amended test procedure to rate and certify**  

### 2 **their products prior to the compliance date** 

### 3 **required for using the new test procedure or** 

### 4 **an amended test procedure.** 

### 5 **Now EPCA requires that, effective** 

### 6 **180 days after the promulgation of any final** 

### 7 **test procedure amendments, based on this** 

### 8 **proposal, manufacturers must make** 

### 9 **representation of energy efficiency, including** 

### 10 **for certification of compliance, using either** 

### 11 **Appendix D or D1.** 

### 12 **And DOE is also proposing to** 

### 13 **require that manufacturers must use a single** 

### 14 **appendix for all representations and may not** 

### 15 **use Appendix D for some and D1 for others.** 

### 16 **And finally, we would just like to** 

### 17 **note that the compliance with DOE's amended** 

### 18 **standards for clothes dryers and corresponding** 

### 19 **use of the test procedure would be required as** 

### 20 **of the January 1, 2015 date.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jennifer?** 

### 22 **MS. CLEARY: I just want to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 183**  **1 clarify that, if manufacturers choose to use**  

### 2 **Appendix D1 before the mandatory date, then** 

### 3 **they would also, as I understand the guidance** 

### 4 **related to this, be required to meet the 2015** 

### 5 **standard?** 

### 6 **MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl from** 

### 7 **DOE.** 

### 8 **It is not a requirement. It is** 

### 9 **not a legal requirement. We encourage it.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Michael?** 

### 11 **MR. BROWN: Michael Brown.** 

### 12 **Relative to the compliance, the** 

### 13 **Department of Energy has a waiver program, I** 

### 14 **understand, that is in place that, if your** 

### 15 **dryer will deliver a level of energy** 

### 16 **efficiency that is not capturable currently by** 

### 17 **DOE's current Subpart 430(b), Appendix D or** 

### 18 **D1, classification, that a waiver may be** 

### 19 **sought for that particular dryer.** 

### 20 **The question I have relative to** 

### 21 **that is, how does that affect the** 

### 22 **certification of a dryer when there is no**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 184**  **1 procedure in place for the DOE to effectively**  

### 2 **capture energy that a particular dryer may** 

### 3 **deliver, but not capturable by the DOE's** 

### 4 **current D or D1 classification?** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley?** 

### 6 **MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley** 

### 7 **from DOE.** 

### 8 **Currently, certification for** 

### 9 **dryers is already required for any dryers that** 

### 10 **are distributed in commerce in the U.S. These** 

### 11 **are just revised changes.** 

### 12 **But, to your question, a** 

### 13 **manufacturer may apply for a test procedure** 

### 14 **waiver if they determine that the measures of** 

### 15 **energy consumption, as measured by the** 

### 16 **existing test procedure, would be** 

### 17 **unrepresentative of their product's energy** 

### 18 **use. Or if they have some technology that is** 

### 19 **not accurately captured, you may apply for** 

### 20 **one. You know, there is a variety of things** 

### 21 **that need to go with your application, but one** 

### 22 **of those is an alternative method of test, an**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 185**  **1 alternative method of determining CEF for**  

### 2 **those particular models for which you are** 

### 3 **seeking a waiver.** 

### 4 **You need to go through the** 

### 5 **process. The Department would need to** 

### 6 **evaluate that waiver and either deny or accept** 

### 7 **such waiver. And once you do that, the** 

### 8 **certification is still required, and we would** 

### 9 **have the method of test that you would need to** 

### 10 **use to determine the CEF of your dryer. And** 

### 11 **then, subsequently, you would, then, certify.** 

### 12 **And there is a place on the certification** 

### 13 **form that, if you have a test procedure** 

### 14 **waiver, you must declare that.** 

### 15 **MR. BROWN: Okay. So that I** 

### 16 **understand properly, during the DOE's** 

### 17 **evaluation of the certification or waiver** 

### 18 **request, commercialization is not allowed?** 

### 19 **And how long does it take for the DOE to** 

### 20 **actually review a waiver of a particular** 

### 21 **clothes dryer test, D or D1?** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It varies, but I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 186**  **1 would say the first step would be getting the**  

### 2 **process started. You must certify before** 

### 3 **distribution in commerce.** 

### 4 **MR. BROWN: So, when you say it** 

### 5 **varies, I mean, that is kind of ambiguous.** 

### 6 **You mean like varies like it might take three** 

### 7 **months or a year? If a waiver is submitted,** 

### 8 **which, of course, if a waiver is submitted and** 

### 9 **the commercialization is, therefore, prevented** 

### 10 **of that particular technology, then that would** 

### 11 **have a profound effect on a company trying to** 

### 12 **provide commercialization product that can't** 

### 13 **be adequately evaluated until a waiver is** 

### 14 **actually evaluated. So, we can't** 

### 15 **commercialize until a waiver has been reviewed** 

### 16 **and accepted?** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. So, this** 

### 18 **is actually from DOE: we strongly encourage** 

### 19 **manufacturers to approach the Department if** 

### 20 **they feel a waiver is needed during the** 

### 21 **designing process, way before you get to the** 

### 22 **point of commercialization.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 187**  **1 That being said, you know,**  

### 2 **typically, if we get a waiver, you know, it** 

### 3 **may be missing parts or pieces. We work with** 

### 4 **the manufacturer to get through that process** 

### 5 **as quickly as we can. So, it is hard to say.** 

### 6 **You know, we get waivers that are** 

### 7 **simply stated, "I need a waiver." And** 

### 8 **obviously, that does not meet our requirements** 

### 9 **and our regulations. And we get complete** 

### 10 **waivers, in which case we can process those** 

### 11 **very quickly, depending on --** 

### 12 **MR. BROWN: Okay. So,** 

### 13 **historically, it could range --** 

### 14 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not going to** 

### 15 **say a date. I'm not going to give you a date** 

### 16 **or a range.** 

### 17 **So, the first step would be, if** 

### 18 **you are that close, you need to apply for a** 

### 19 **waiver, if you feel that you need one.** 

### 20 **MR. BROWN: Okay. So, I had** 

### 21 **actually asked Mr. Witkowski about a waiver a** 

### 22 **year ago, and I am curious now. We are in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 188**  **1 process where we would like to commercialize**  

### 2 **our technology.** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 4 **MR. BROWN: And let me just** 

### 5 **clarify this. I was informed by the DOE, and** 

### 6 **Judy Reich may be able to remember me in 2010** 

### 7 **when I submitted my dryer technology --** 

### 8 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, can we take** 

### 9 **this conversation offline? I am just going to** 

### 10 **ask, is there a reason that it needs to go on** 

### 11 **the record?** 

### 12 **MR. BROWN: Yes.** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.** 

### 14 **MR. BROWN: There is a very** 

### 15 **important reason why my questions and my** 

### 16 **statements need to go on the record. Because** 

### 17 **when it comes to commercializing a technology,** 

### 18 **the Department of Energy will prevent a** 

### 19 **company from commercializing the technology if** 

### 20 **that technology requires a waiver because the** 

### 21 **current test protocol for clothes dryer,** 

### 22 **according to D or D1, may not effectively**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 189**  **1 represent the true energy consumption of that**  

### 2 **particular dryer. Therefore, if it does not** 

### 3 **capture that dryer's energy efficiency per se,** 

### 4 **then it is not representative of that; the** 

### 5 **current test may not be representative.** 

### 6 **So, in that regard, when we tried** 

### 7 **to get our dryer commercialized, we were** 

### 8 **informed by DOE officials that it had to be** 

### 9 **tested first. Of course, when we followed** 

### 10 **suit with that, and for three months we waited** 

### 11 **for DOE, who had our technology, and it** 

### 12 **ultimately was sent back to us because it** 

### 13 **wasn't commercialized.** 

### 14 **So, we were getting two different** 

### 15 **things. We were getting it must be** 

### 16 **commercialized, and then we were getting it** 

### 17 **must be tested before it is commercialized.** 

### 18 **So, my particular question here,** 

### 19 **because it is a different technology, is, if** 

### 20 **we submit a waiver to the DOE relative to the** 

### 21 **fact that its current D or D1 tests may not be** 

### 22 **representative of the energy efficiency of our**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 190**  **1 current dryer, I am just trying to try to get**  

### 2 **an understanding of what the length of time in** 

### 3 **that process may be. And if you don't have a** 

### 4 **clear answer on that, which you may not have,** 

### 5 **is there a way where a company can expedite a** 

### 6 **waiver request to be looked at?** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, this is Ashley** 

### 8 **from DOE.** 

### 9 **I think it is fair to say that the** 

### 10 **first step in the process is submitting a** 

### 11 **completed waiver application. DOE does not** 

### 12 **test your products. The requirement is on the** 

### 13 **manufacturer to come up with their certified** 

### 14 **ratings through testing, using the DOE test** 

### 15 **procedure and applicable sampling plans.** 

### 16 **That being said, you may do it in** 

### 17 **your facilities or you may do it at a third** 

### 18 **party lab. It is at your discretion for** 

### 19 **dryers. We do not have laboratory testing** 

### 20 **requirements for dryers. It just must be done** 

### 21 **in accordance with our test procedure.** 

### 22 **In order to test, if you feel you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 191**  **1 need a waiver, you need to go through the**  

### 2 **waiver process. So, the first step would be** 

### 3 **to apply for a waiver and complete the full** 

### 4 **application process, which includes an** 

### 5 **alternative method of tests for your dryer** 

### 6 **that you feel more accurately represents these** 

### 7 **consumption of your dryer.** 

### 8 **There are a variety of steps. I** 

### 9 **am more than happy to lay out the process.** 

### 10 **But, as I said earlier, we are committed to** 

### 11 **working with you; you need to begin the** 

### 12 **process, though. It is not, "I am going to** 

### 13 **turn my product over to DOE for testing."** 

### 14 **That is not part of the process. The testing** 

### 15 **requirements are on you as the manufacturer.** 

### 16 **MR. BROWN: Okay. And then, to** 

### 17 **clarify, I am not asking the DOE to test it.** 

### 18 **I understand I need third-party validation,** 

### 19 **not by the DOE.** 

### 20 **MS. ARMSTRONG: You do not. The** 

### 21 **requirements, manufacturers can self-certify** 

### 22 **using their own test data. They can elect to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 192**  **1 use a third party if they wish. They do not**  

### 2 **have to for dryers.** 

### 3 **MR. BROWN: Okay. Okay. So, for** 

### 4 **certification purposes for a dryer, you are** 

### 5 **saying that it does not have to be, the dryer** 

### 6 **does not have to be certified by a third-party** 

### 7 **agency? It can be submitted by our company?** 

### 8 **MS. ARMSTRONG: The requirement is** 

### 9 **on the manufacturer and/or the importer. They** 

### 10 **may elect to use their own testing facilities** 

### 11 **or a third-party testing facility, at their** 

### 12 **discretion.** 

### 13 **MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 14 **MS. ARMSTRONG: The test just** 

### 15 **needs to be done in accordance with D or D1.** 

### 16 **When you certify, you will certify a legally** 

### 17 **binding statement saying that you have tested** 

### 18 **in accordance with the test procedure and** 

### 19 **these are the results you have gotten. And** 

### 20 **that all must be completed before distribution** 

### 21 **in commerce.** 

### 22 **MR. BROWN: Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 193**  **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, final** 

### 3 **comments on slide 63, compliance data? I want** 

### 4 **to make sure.** 

### 5 **Yes, Charlie?** 

### 6 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 7 **On the second sub-bullet there,** 

### 8 **"Manufacturers must use a single appendix for** 

### 9 **all representations," would an example of that** 

### 10 **representation be Energy Star certification?** 

### 11 **So, one appendix for everything they certify** 

### 12 **to?** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.** 

### 14 **MR. STEPHENS: Okay.** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, if Energy Star** 

### 16 **opted to use the amended test procedure early,** 

### 17 **then for compliance purposes, the** 

### 18 **certification to DOE would have to be using** 

### 19 **that.** 

### 20 **MR. STEPHENS: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 21 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Ashley.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 194**  **1 Final comments on this set of**  

### 2 **slides?** 

### 3 **(No response.)** 

### 4 **Then, go to the final slide, 64.** 

### 5 **As you are looking at this one, there is an** 

### 6 **opportunity now, as we promised first thing** 

### 7 **this morning, for anybody that wishes to do so** 

### 8 **to make final comments, raise other issues** 

### 9 **that haven't been adequately addressed during** 

### 10 **the course of this proceeding.** 

### 11 **Charlie?** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, just some** 

### 13 **quick ones that were highlighted in the slides** 

### 14 **that I first showed with some differences that** 

### 15 **we haven't really discussed today.** 

### 16 **But DOE made some changes to the** 

### 17 **test procedure in the last round from the 2005** 

### 18 **procedure that lowered the number of annual** 

### 19 **cycles from 416 to 283, that changed the** 

### 20 **remaining moisture from 70 percent to 57** 

### 21 **percent. Those turned out not to be actually** 

### 22 **very relevant to the field, as it turns out.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 195**  **1 I went through all of that, and I**  

### 2 **remember the RECS survey and RECS data that** 

### 3 **was used and the rationalization of larger** 

### 4 **clothes washers, meaning larger loads, and** 

### 5 **therefore, fewer loads annually, and all of** 

### 6 **those justifications that were used, for** 

### 7 **instance. But those turn out not to be true,** 

### 8 **based on the data from the field.** 

### 9 **Does DOE have any plans to** 

### 10 **reevaluate those numbers and perhaps put them** 

### 11 **back closer to where they were, which, albeit** 

### 12 **not entirely where our data shows, would be a** 

### 13 **lot closer?** 

### 14 **MR. BATTAGLIA: We will take into** 

### 15 **consideration any data and comments submitted.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris?** 

### 17 **MR. CALWELL: Yes, I think the** 

### 18 **California utilities would just like to make a** 

### 19 **similar point there, that the data were** 

### 20 **submitted to DOE -- what was the date,** 

### 21 **Charlie?** 

### 22 **MR. STEPHENS: May 24th of 2012.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 196**  **1 MR. CALWELL: Okay, yes. So,**  

### 2 **eight-nine months ago. And I think it is true** 

### 3 **that they are somewhat daunting. I mean, we** 

### 4 **have been struggling with the data for a while** 

### 5 **ourselves. And so, it is one thing to have** 

### 6 **the data and another thing to try to sort** 

### 7 **through them and draw conclusions from them.** 

### 8 **But what we saw in The Federal** 

### 9 **Register was DOE did reference a few aspects** 

### 10 **of the field data that were similar to DOE's** 

### 11 **existing assumptions, like the dry weight of** 

### 12 **the load, and I think the settings that people** 

### 13 **typically chose.** 

### 14 **What we didn't see cited by DOE** 

### 15 **were other aspects of NEEA data that clearly** 

### 16 **differed from DOE's assumptions. And the two** 

### 17 **most important ones I think would be the ones** 

### 18 **that Charlie just mentioned.** 

### 19 **So, just to reiterate, that the** 

### 20 **field data show that the clothes are wetter** 

### 21 **when they come out of the washer than DOE** 

### 22 **assumes. And it is a vexing problem. It**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 197**  **1 creates challenges for your washer standard as**  

### 2 **well, and I don't want to get into that. But** 

### 3 **one can imagine that new washers are** 

### 4 **absolutely capable of removing more water from** 

### 5 **clothing; they are just not consistently doing** 

### 6 **so. And that leaves the dryer with more work** 

### 7 **to do than you think it has to do. That is** 

### 8 **especially true when you are drying real** 

### 9 **clothing instead of the test cloths.** 

### 10 **The second issue, which I think** 

### 11 **doesn't delay you, doesn't reopen your test** 

### 12 **procedure, doesn't radically increase your** 

### 13 **work burden, is simply to acknowledge field** 

### 14 **results, that there are more loads being dried** 

### 15 **per year than you think, a lot more.** 

### 16 **And when you do that, what happens** 

### 17 **is the denominator, you know, the absolute** 

### 18 **amount of energy consumption that is occurring** 

### 19 **gets higher. And so, even if you can only** 

### 20 **save a modest percentage of that, you are** 

### 21 **saving more absolute energy that is worth more** 

### 22 **dollars and is, therefore, more cost-effective**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 198**  **1 to save.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, another** 

### 3 **invitation, anybody that wishes to make a** 

### 4 **final comment at this point?** 

### 5 **Michael, briefly.** 

### 6 **MR. BROWN: Thank you.** 

### 7 **This is Michael Brown with** 

### 8 **Hydromatic Technologies.** 

### 9 **This question is relative to the** 

### 10 **Department of Energy's concern about the** 

### 11 **safety of clothes dryers and how they operate** 

### 12 **as opposed to just their energy efficiency and** 

### 13 **their RMCs. How does the Department go about** 

### 14 **bringing in or investigating new technologies** 

### 15 **that offer all of the energy efficiency the** 

### 16 **Department is seeking and the benefits that** 

### 17 **the Department is seeking that it can make** 

### 18 **sure it offers to consumers with the issue of** 

### 19 **safety for dryer fires, in particular which,** 

### 20 **according to CPSC, those numbers are pretty** 

### 21 **high on an annual basis. Dollar value, $100** 

### 22 **million a year in property damage.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 199**  **1 If there is a dryer technology,**  

### 2 **which we profess that there is one that will** 

### 3 **completely eliminate lint fires, as our hybrid** 

### 4 **electric dryer will do, how does the DOE** 

### 5 **address the safety concerns for a dryer that** 

### 6 **proposes to --** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Michael, I have to** 

### 8 **wonder whether this is germane to the topic** 

### 9 **today of the test procedure.** 

### 10 **MR. BROWN: It regards testing** 

### 11 **because, if a clothes dryer is being tested** 

### 12 **for energy efficiency, for RMCs, is that dryer** 

### 13 **not being tested for safety for dryer fires by** 

### 14 **the Department of Energy?** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: No.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley?** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: The Department is** 

### 18 **testing for energy efficiency, not for safety.** 

### 19 **MR. BROWN: Not for safety? Okay.** 

### 20 **Thank you very much.** 

### 21 **MS. ARMSTRONG: We have other** 

### 22 **agencies that deal with safety and the testing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 200**  **1 of such.**  

### 2 **MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Final** 

### 4 **comments before we close this session and I** 

### 5 **turn it back to Stephen Witkowski?** 

### 6 **Jen?** 

### 7 **MS. WALTNER: Hi. Jennifer Amann,** 

### 8 **ACEEE.** 

### 9 **As always, we appreciate the** 

### 10 **opportunity to sit on a public meeting and** 

### 11 **talk through the issues around test procedures** 

### 12 **and standards, and we look forward to** 

### 13 **submitting our written comments, which, just** 

### 14 **to reiterate, will deal primarily with** 

### 15 **concerns that we have regarding I think two** 

### 16 **main issues.** 

### 17 **So, in the joint petition that was** 

### 18 **submitted by the manufacturers and the** 

### 19 **efficiency advocates, we had based that on a** 

### 20 **set standard level that was to be adjusted to** 

### 21 **deal with changes to the test procedure as we** 

### 22 **had outlined.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 201**  **1 So, now I think we have some**  

### 2 **concerns about the Department's determination** 

### 3 **that the standard does not need to be** 

### 4 **adjusted, based on the results of the test** 

### 5 **procedure, and, also, with concerns about the** 

### 6 **adjustment to the test procedure not truly** 

### 7 **reflecting the automatic-termination controls** 

### 8 **and allowing the clothing to dry and the cycle** 

### 9 **to run and use those results, which was the** 

### 10 **basis of our petition.** 

### 11 **So, I just wanted to reiterate** 

### 12 **those comments, and we look forward to** 

### 13 **submitting our written comments and the next** 

### 14 **stage of the process.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 16 **Anybody else?** 

### 17 **(No response.)** 

### 18 **Then, for my part, I thank you.** 

### 19 **We had a very productive meeting today, and I** 

### 20 **think it was efficient coverage of these** 

### 21 **topics.** 

### 22 **I would encourage you, as a part**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 202**  **1 of your packet, there is an evaluation form.**  

### 2 **Please take a few seconds to fill that out.** 

### 3 **And I will turn it back to Stephen** 

### 4 **Witkowski for closing remarks.** 

### 5 **MR. WITKOWSKI: Well, again, I** 

### 6 **just thank you for coming, and I want to** 

### 7 **reiterate the importance of submitting your** 

### 8 **written comments. The comment period closes** 

### 9 **by March 18th. So, please get them in, and we** 

### 10 **look forward to reviewing and evaluating what** 

### 11 **you have to say. And thank you again for** 

### 12 **attending.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Safe travels to** 

### 14 **everyone.** 

### 15 **(Whereupon, the above-entitled** 

### 16 **matter went off the record at 12:24 p.m.)** 

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96:3 97:20 98:12 99:9,9,15 134:6 8.45 17:5 80 16:18 166:13 84 3:17 85 3:21 9 9 3:7 9:00 1:11 9:01 5:2NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 229

Test Procedures for Residential Clothes Dryers

US DOE

02-06-12

Washington, DC