r- BEFORE THE 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

:^t:FARTMENT OF 

n ANSPORTATION 

;:;/;L T OPERATIONS 

m m ! 5 p v^ 

I n RE: 

BUSH AIR CARGO 

FAA No. CPlOALOOOl /fp^ ^\,t>-^ill 

9 

Federal Building Annex A 

222 West Eighth Avenue 

Conference Room A 

Anchorage, Alaska 

Tuesday, October 19, 2010 

9:00 o'clock a.m. 

BEFORE; 

RICHARD GOODWIN 

Administrative Law Judge 

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(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
^ APPEARANCES 

FOR THE COMPLAINANT: 

GLENN H. BROWN, ESQ. 

Federal Aviation Administration 

Office of Regional Counsel 

222 West 7th Avenue, No. 14 

Anchorage, Alaska 99513 

(907) 274-1074 

FOR THE RESPONDENT: 

BARTON M. TIERNAN, ESQ. 

P.O. Box 93144 

Anchorage, Alaska 99509 

(907) 277-7657 

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(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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OPENING STATEMENT 

BY THE COMPLAINANT, PAGE 4 

BY THE RESPONDENT, PAGE 6 

WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 

STEPHEN STEWART 11 50 

Voir Dire on page 43 

BARTON TIERNAN 95 106 

Voir Dire on page 97 

81 

91 

112 

86 

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EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION RECD 

COMPLAINANT: 

n 

CI Operating certificate 19 

C2 Operations Specification AOOl 27 

C3 Operations Specification AO06 27 

C4 Operations Specification AO07 27 

C5 Operations Specification AO08 27 

C6 Operations Specification A039 27 

C7 . Emails 34 

C8 Request that Wayne Koon be added to 36 

A039 

C9 Operations Specification issued in 36 

response to C8 

CIO Letter of investigation 36 

Cll Emails 38 

C12 Appendix B for Order 2153D 45 

C13 Response to Notice of Proposed 108 

Civil Penalty 

RESPONDENT: 

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Rl Letter dated February 9th, 2009 64 

R2 Letter of authorization 64 

R4 Document of pilot hours 99 

R8 Tax return 101 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. nealr^( oss.com 
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with that. Your Honor, I'm going to be very 

brief. Basically from the pleadings, there 

does not appear to be large factual issues. 

The question is whether Bush Air Cargo 

complied with its Ops Spec and based on the 

pleadings that have been recently filed, there 

appears to be a contention from Bush Air Cargo 

that well, our the Government's 

contention is that there was an Ops Spec A03 9 

that specified who would serve as the second 

in command and Bush Air Cargo used someone 

else for 19 flights. That's all admitted. 

What's been raised is a question 

of whether a separate list pursuant to AO08 

nullified the need for the requirements in 

A03 9. That's the issue. That part of it is 

we believe a question of interpretation, but 

there's also the question of where that list 

came from because we didn't see it until very 

recently. So those what we see are the issues 

here, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Tiernan . 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealr^oss.com 
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MR. TIERNAN; Well, since Mr, 

Brown made an opening, maybe I'll make one 

too. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You can reserve if 

you want to. That's -- you can make it now or 

reserve. Your call. 

MR. TIERNAN: Let me just — let 

me give an intro, just give background. As 

you may have recognized, I'm the general 

counsel, president, PIC, cargo handler, 

loader, everything for this company, so I wear 

a couple different hats. It's a single PIC 

operation. It's -- we operate two DC3s and 

one of them on skis, the only DC3 on skis in 

the U.S. We fly approximately about 120 hours 

a year. We operate primarily about three 

months out of the winter and about four months 

out of the summer 

This that's just background 

information. This company's been in operation 

since approximately March of 2008. We got our 

certificate in December 2007. So it's a young 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealr^oss.com 
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company. It hasn't turned a profit yet and 

you'll see one of our exhibits, it'll show 

even a loss for 2009. 

That's just background information 

since if we do start talking about a violation 

and a fine that we can -- hopefully we can 

reduce it 

This particular incident occurred 

in -- oh, actually backing up a little bit. 

The original certificate was certified as me 

PIC and then Donald Ballard for an SIC, a 

copilot. The single PIC 135 allows for one 

PIC and that's it. That one PIC basically has 

all operational control responsibility for 

the operation, especially in this particular 

one 

The SIC was Donald Ballard in 

February 2009, Mr. Ballard was not going to be 

available for revenue flights in March. We 

decided to train another SIC so we'd have two. 

In December -- or on February 12th, the --

well, I called up Mr. Stewart, let him know 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. .nealrgfi oss.com 
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that we're going to -- per our 135 that we 

would be having a training program and 

training up an SIC. I asked if he'd be 

available before March so we can get a check 

ride out of the way and he said he wouldn't be 

available. I said, well, we need a check ride 

-- we need an SIC because Mr. Ballard's not 

going to be available and he said, well, I'm 

not going to be available. 

I said, well, I need somebody. 

How about if we authorize Mr. Alan Larson who 

was a -- who was qualified to give a check 

ride, operates Trans Northern DC3 operation, 

and we received after a request authorization 

to allow Mr. Larson to give a check ride. 

That check ride was completed and 

the day after I believe it was we started 

revenue flights with Mr. Koon who is the 

person that issued here the second SIC and Mr. 

Ballard of course was not available. So he 

was added to our checklist -- our pilots list 

per our 135. Our 135 certificate states that 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealr^oss.com 
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we are specifically directed to keep a list of 

pilots and that is in AO08 and you'll see I 

believe that's Exhibit 7. 

In any event, we add him to our 

list and we continue -- we started to commence 

our flights. In July -- so four months later 

in July, Mr. Stewart --we were talking on the 

phone. I can't remember the specifics, but it 

was basically I believe he said words to the 

effect of I hope you added Mr. Koon to your 

Ops Specs and I said no and I took that as a 

sign to I'd better. 

So I requested he be added to the 

Ops Specs and then in December, we got this 

complaint. And as Mr. Brown stated, it all 

comes down to the two sections in the Ops 

Specs You have A03 9(c) (2 ) and 

AO08(2) (d) (1) (b) and it's -- essentially it 

comes down to the interpretation of those two 

clauses in our -- or those two sections in our 

Ops Specs. 

Were we required to -- does the 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 f.nealr^i 'oss.com 
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language require you just to keep a pilots 

list or does it require you to keep a pilots 

list and add the person to your Ops Specs 

under 39 or is it just 39. It's vague -- in 

our opinion, it's vague. In our opinion, we 

have the option of doing any one of the two 

under AO08 and essentially that's it. It's 

just the interpretation of those two sections 

and the background of the -- if there is going 

to be a violation that the penalty is not 

appropriate. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: One thing I want 

you to consider, Mr. Tiernan, I -- as Mr. 

Brown knows, I frequently seal the record and 

I notice you've got a corporate income tax 

return in here. Well, it'll certainly be 

available within the appellate section if you 

feel that's something that needs -- it's 

proprietary and needs to be sealed, just let 

me know before the hearing's over. 

MR. TIERNAN; Yes, Your Honor 

And we wil l be requestin g tha t 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrsfoss.com 
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JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Brown. 

MR. TIERNAN: Thank you. Your 

Honor. We call Inspector Stewart. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: By the way, while 

he's coming up there, they've been flight 

testing the new Boeing 747-800 in Fresno. 

MR. BROWN: Wow. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: They've been 

flying it from Everett -- something about the 

airport in Fresno is just -- you know, the 

sound they usually make when they take off. 

I looked -- I couldn't believe how quiet this 

thing is when the engines are in use. So, 

sir, stand and raise your right hand. 

(Oath administered) 

MR. STEWART: I do. 

STEPHEN STEWART 

called as a witness on behalf of the 

complainant, testified as follows on: 

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

State your full name for the record and spell 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealr^oss.com 
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your first and last name. 

A Stephen J. Stewart, S-T-E-P-H-E-N 

S-T-E-W-A-R-T. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. The 

last name again. 

A S-T-E-W-A-R-T, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

BY MR. BROWN: 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Mr. Stewart, are you employed? 

Yes 

By whom? 

T h e Federa l Aviatio n 

Administration, 

Q In what capacity? 

A As an Aviation Safety Inspector. 

Q And where are you assigned? 

To the Anchorage Flight Service 

District Office. 

Q Flight Standards District Office? 

You said Service 

Office. 

Q Okay. How long have you been with 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealr^oss.com 
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the FAA? 

A Nine years. 

Q And very briefly, what do your 

duties entail? 

A Certification and ongoing 

certification of new or existing operators, 

working in tandem with operators in keeping 

their various manuals current and in 

compliance, general operations manuals, 

training programs. We also -- or I also do 

investigations of incidents, accidents, 

occurrences, enforcements, various 

inspections, airmen certifications. Quite a 

number of different tasks. 

Q I don't know if I -- you said it, 

but are you an airworthiness ops. 

avionics. 

A 

Q 

. . . . 

Operations. 

Operations. What if any FAA 

certificates do you hold? 

A I hold an airline transport 

certificate, multi-engine land, and commercial 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealr^oss.com 
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privileges, single-engine land and sea, in 

addition to which I'm typed in DC3 and 

Super DC3 

Q When did you get those DC3/DC3S 

type ratings? 

A DC3 was February of 2 007 and the 

Super 3 in February of 2009. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: What's a Super 3? 

A It is a larger variation of the --

it's a larger DC3 that Douglas developed for 

the commercial passenger carrying operations. 

It's a longer airplane, different wing, 

different engines, faster airplane. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: But the last one 

that was built was 50 years ago or more? 

A I'm not sure, but approximately. 

yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: A long time ago 

Yes 

MR. TIERNAN; 

JUDGE GOODWIN; 

50s . 

About 1950s was 

the last one? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrsEOss.com 
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Q I assume you got these -- the type 

ratings then really to assist you in your 

duties as an inspector? 

A Yes, because I have oversight of 

all the DC3 and Super 3 operators in this 

region. 

Q Okay. And how many are there? 

A Two. 

Q You heard Mr. Tiernan's opening 

statement. Trans Northern, is that the other 

operation? 

A Correct. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: There are two 

aircraft or two people who operate the DC3s? 

A There are two operators that have 

Douglas DC3s. Mr. Tiernan has DC3s. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

A And Northern Air Cargo has only 

Super DC3s 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay . 

MR. TIERNAN: Tran s Northern , 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I' m sorry ? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 r.nealr^i 'oss.com 
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MR. BROWN: Trans Northern, 

MR. TIERNAN: Trans Northern, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Trans Northern, 

What did I say? 

MR. TIERNAN: You said NAC. You 

said NAC. 

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I used to 

work at NAC. 

MR. TIERNAN: Yeah, that's 

MR. BROWN: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So whose aircraft 

are in pieces down at the airport? 

A Which airport? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: The Anchorage — 

Steven's (ph). I just saw one of the engines 

were off and. 

A Oh, let me correct myself. There 

are three operators in the region. 

MR. TIERNAN: Yeah. Desert Air. 

A There's Desert Air, Trans 

Northern, and Bush Air Cargo. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; So I assume 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.neairgioss.co salr^( m 
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Desert's are in parts down at the Steven's. 

MR. TIERNAN: I think that's the 

Reeve (ph) DC3 that had the wing tip off. 

Right. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; It also had the 

left engine off 

MR. TIERNAN: Oh, yeah. That --

that's a -- Desert Air owns that one. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. Okay. 

MR. TIERNAN: We think. He takes 

parts off it anyway. 

MR. BROWN: All right. 

A He does own it. 

MR. TIERNAN: Okay. 

Q Mr. Stewart, let's get back here. 

The -- prior to coming to the FAA, will you 

briefly describe your -- summarize your 

aviation experience/employment. 

A 22 years in the industry flying 

primarily as a pilot in command for a variety 

of operators, small to large, single-engine C 

-- commuter, on demand. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www, .nealrgfc •oss.com 
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Q You mentioned Northern Air Cargo, 

what did you fly for them? 

A DC6. 

Q Okay. So we've covered it, but I 

believe you indicated you're the principal 

operating inspector for Bush Air Cargo; is 

that correct? 

A That is correct. 

Q Okay. And how long have you been 

the POI for Bush Air Cargo? 

A Since early 2008. 

Q All right. Was that the time of 

its initial certification? 

No They were initially 

certificated in December of 2007. 

Q All right. So then you inherited 

the -- if you will, the responsibility of 

oversight for this carrier after someone else 

had done the certification. 

A Correct. 

MR. BROWN: All right. Let's 

start with a few things. This will be CI. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrposs.com 
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Q If you would, what is CI? 

A CI is a copy of an operating 

certificate issued to Bush Air Cargo, Inc., in 

December 14, 2 007. 

Q All right. And basically this 

states that they have a operating certificate 

with certain limitations, restrictions, et 

cetera, correct? 

A Correct. 

Q All right. 

MR. BROWN; Now I'll move for 

admission of Cl and you may wonder why we're 

bothering, but this was not a matter addressed 

in the answer, so here's the certificate. 

MR. TIERNAN: No objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Cl for 

identification is received into evidence as 

Cl. 

(Complainant's Exhibit Cl admitted) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: What I -- Mr. 

Tiernan, what I normally do where the exhibit 

number is is where I write ID when it's 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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offered. I line through that and put the date 

in in pencil. That's the line though that 

I've admitted it. 

MR. TIERNAN: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So you're free to 

check this out. I don't know if Mr. Brown's 

told you. Everything we do here goes on the 

Internet. 

MR. TIERNAN: Sure 

JUDGE GOODWIN: That's why I made 

the comment about the -- sealing the record. 

MR. TIERNAN: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; The transcript 

goes on the record -- goes on the Internet and 

all the exhibits go on the Internet. I didn't 

mean to throw you off, Mr. Brown. 

MR. BROWN: No, that's — I'm just 

thinking how to do this most efficiently. Your 

Honor 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, don't worry 

about it. We've got two days. You don't have 

to be efficient. 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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MR. TIERNAN: Hopefully not two 

days . 

JUDGE GOODWIN; You wanted this 

or 

MR. BROWN: I'm using C for 

complainant. Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. But you're 

using letters or numbers? 

MR. BROWN: It's Cl, C2, C3. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. All right. 

MR. BROWN: And that was Cl was 

the one I just gave you. Okay. These would 

be in order. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And you mark in 

the transcript when they're admitted too. 

right? 

MR. BROWN; And, Mr. Tiernan, 

here's what I've marked -- had marked as C2, 

C3, C4, C5, and C6. And it should be in 

ascending order starting with Al. C2 through 

C6 in this order. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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Q If you would, please, state for 

the record what those are, identify them very 

briefly. 

A C2 is Operations Specification 

AOOl which is the Operational Specification 

equivalent of Cl which is the operating 

certificate 

Q And basically these are Ops Specs 

that have been issued to Bush Air Cargo? 

C2? 

A Correct 

Q And AOOl is simply the basic one, 

Yes. Cl is stating that these 

operations specifications which would -- means 

all those that were issued to it are Bush Air 

Cargo 

purpose? 

All right. And C3, what's its 

A C3 is Ops Spec AO06, management 

personnel. It lists those individuals who 

have management positions with Bush Air Cargo 

and in this instance it is the -- Barton 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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Tiernan is the General Manager and at the time 

this was issued. Ward Simones (ph) was the 

Director of Maintenance. 

Q Okay. Basically so this indicates 

who the key personnel are? 

A Correct. 

Q All right. And moving now to C4, 

what is it? 

A AO07, other designated persons. 

Again it lists the key management personnel in 

addition to that individual within the company 

that will receive safety informational alerts 

and end posts (ph). 

Q Okay. Now let's get to C5, what 

is -- AO08. What is this one? 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

control 

You meant AO08 not 5, correct? 

It' s C5. 

Oh, C -- I'm sorry . 

Yes. 

Yeah. AO08 is operationa l 

Okay. What is it s purpose? 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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A To state the manner in which the 

personnel in any particular operation have 

control of all aspects of the company. 

Q Okay. In the issuance -- in issue 

are deciding which Ops Specs to -- or 

operations specification issue, do you have 

some latitude? 

A Restate the question, please 

Q In determining which Ops Specs to 

issue, do you have some latitude? 

A Yes. Yes. And highly dependent 

on the kinds of operations they conduct. 

Q So that's something for the 

judgement of the POI? 

A In concert with the operator's 

desires. It's a joint effort. 

Q All right. AO08, is this intended 

for small companies, large companies, both? 

A All companies regardless of size. 

Q So this -- even the large part 121 

carrier as well as the small one -- single 

pilot operator would get the same Ops Spec? 

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A Correct. 

Q And lastly I showed you C6 which 

A039, single-pilot command operator. What is 

the purpose of C6? 

A To specify the only individual 

that can be used as pilot in command under 

that certificate and the only persons that can 

be used as second in command pilots. 

Q All right Now, just for the 

record, prior to July 2009, basically the time 

period at issue in the complaint in this 

matter was what you see here, C6, the then 

current operations specification issued to 

Bush Air Cargo. 

A Yes 

Q Now, I notice all of the C2 

through C6 appear to have a handwritten 

statement sort of at the bottom and a date of 

October 12th of 2010. Do you see that? 

A I do. 

Q Okay. What is that? 

A That is my writing stating that 

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where copies of these particular items came 

from. 

Q So would you explain to the Court 

where they came from? What do you mean? 

A Well, Cl, for example, came from 

the operator's read (ph) file which is a 

binder that we keep in the PISTO (ph) with a 

variety of information including Ops Specs, 

correspondence, et cetera. It's sitting on 

the table to your right. 

Q So that's the official record, if 

you would. That's how it's filed. 

A Correct. 

Q And C2 through C6, where did you 

actually find these when you went to make the 

copies? 

I printed them directly from an 

application called Web Ops which is where all 

operators -- operations specification reside 

electronically. 

Q Thank you. 

MR. BROWN: Your Honor, at this 

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MR. TIERNAN: No objection. Just 

to clarify though, these were the existing Ops 

Specs at the time of the violation which are 

the appropriate ones, but a couple of them 

have changed since. But it's irrelevant to 

this case, so no objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You agree with 

that? I mean all he's saying is that some 

things have changed since then. The Court's 

only concerned that these are the ones 

applicable at the time of the violation. 

MR. BROWN: Understand. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Which generally 

he' s 

MR. BROWN: I believe -- yeah. 

Correct. And so with that, we agree. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Exhibits C2 

through C6 inclusive are admitted as 

respective exhibit numbers. 

(Complainant's Exhibits C2 through C6 

admitted) 

(202) 234-4433 

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Q Mr. Stewart -- kind of speed this 

up a little bit. At some point in time, you 

became concerned that there might have been a 

violation of A039; is that correct? 

A Correct. 

Q All right. If you would, how did 

that come about and what do you recall about 

the conversations? 

A I had a -- I believe I had an 

email conversation with Mr. Tiernan in July of 

2009 in which I inquired as to whether or not 

-- severalfold. First I believe I recall 

asking if the second in command that had been 

checked out in February had actually been 

utilized in revenue service and additionally 

if so, had he been added to Operations 

Specification A039. 

Q And you believe this was done by 

email? 

I do. 

MR. BROWN: Hang on for just a 

minute. 

(202) 234-4433 

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Q I'm handing you what I've marked 

as Exhibit C7. Do you recognize C7? 

A I do. This is a string of emails 

between myself and Mr. Tiernan that begin on 

the last page, March 13th of 2009, through 

July 15th of 2009. 

Q First of all, is contact by email 

something you commonly do now? 

A Yes. 

Q I mean with your operators. 

A Correct. 

Q So let me -- this looks like you 

had a conversation in March and there was --

and so the next email I see here in this chain 

coming from the back to the front is from 

Mr. Tiernan to you. It appears to be on July 

2nd; is that correct? And I'm looking on the 

second page of this exhibit. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You're talking 

about 2 of 6? 

MR. BROWN: 2 of 6, correct. The 

second page of the exhibit down at the very 

(202) 234-4433 

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JUDGE GOODWIN; What I do, Mr 

Tiernan, is that in multiple pages, I'll mark 

them 1 of 2, 1 of -- and so forth to help the 

record so the court reporter doesn't get mad 

at me. 

A Rephrase your question, yeah. 

Q All right. What I was trying to 

do was direct your attention. It appears to 

me that on Page 2 of 6 down at the bottom is 

essentially the next message in this string 

and it's from Mr. Tiernan; is that correct? 

A Yes, if you're talking about my 

expert is just -- is that where you're 

starting? 

Q Yes. 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. So your response to that 

message is above that on Page 2 of 6, correct? 

A Correct. 

A 

On Tuesday, Jul y 14th, 

Yes. 

(202) 234-4433 

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Q All right. And so his response 

then to you begins on the first page at the 

bottom and then goes over to the second page; 

is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q All right. And then your response 

on July 15th at 8:05 is there on Page 1 of 1, 

the middle. 

A Yes 

Q And then his response back to you 

is the very top one at 11:40 a.m. on July 

15th, 2009. 

A Correct. 

Q All right. 

MR. BROWN: Your Honor, move for 

admission of C7. 

MR. TIERNAN: I would -- I don't 

mind 1 of 6 and 2 of 6, but I don't see how 

the rest of it is relevant at all. Unless the 

counsel can tell me why it's relevant and 

they're separate communications, different 

subjects, totally unrelated. So I don't 

(202) 234-4433 

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object to the first two pages, but after 

that 

JUDGE GOODWIN: What's your 

position, Mr. Brown? 

MR. BROWN: Well, Your Honor, 

basically what we did we had an email string 

and so at the risk of being accused of cutting 

or, you know, being selective, we included the 

entire string. What you can see here is the 

communication -- actually the first three 

pages really appear to be the most relevant. 

Certainly the matter at hand though is in the 

first two pages as he acknowledged. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What I'm 

going to do, Mr. Tiernan, I'm going to admit 

it, but I'm only concerned about the one 

violation and if there's discussion about 

something else, the Court's going to ignore 

it 

MR. TIERNAN: I just don't want it 

to go on the Internet because I have some 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Pardon me? 

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MR. TIERNAN: I don't want it to 

go on the Internet because I see 

a way, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, then there's 

MR. TIERNAN: Okay. Then we'll — 

okay. Then we'll 

JUDGE GOODWIN; to deal with 

that. Why don't we dealt with that 

MR. TIERNAN: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: and -- let's 

talk about that at the end. The -- accepting 

the Agency's proffer on this, it certainly --

the Court's concerned about letting evidence 

in piecemeal and if there's a train of 

thought, it seems to me that the train of 

thought should be admitted. Superfluous 

things --in other words, things that are not 

directly related to the alleged violation, the 

Court's going to ignore, and if there are 

concerns about this getting on the Internet, 

then we'll just -- we'll seal this particular 

exhibit or the whole -- I've sealed exhibits. 

(202) 234-4433 

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MR. TIERNAN: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: .we'll deal 

with that at the end. 

MR. TIERNAN: No objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So Complainant's 7 

for identification is received into evidence 

as Complainant's 7. 

(Complainant's Exhibit C7 admitted) 

Q Mr. Stewart, did you subsequently 

get a request from Bush Air Cargo, Mr. 

Tiernan, to amend Ops Specification A039 to 

add a different second in command? 

A I did. 

Q Show you what I've marked as 

Exhibit C8. Mr. Stewart, do you recognize C8? 

A I do. 

Q And what is it? 

A It is a letter request from Bush 

Air Cargo requesting that Wayne Koon be added 

to Ops Spec A039 as a second in command pilot. 

Q Okay. Is this the letter you just 

(202) 234-4433 

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-- this is the request that you just testified 

to? 

new A039? 

Q 

Correct. 

And did you subsequently issue a 

I did, 

I'm handing you what I've marked 

as C9. Is C9 the Ops Spec you issued in 

response to C8? 

A Yes, it is. 

Q And, Mr. Stewart, I assiime it's 

fair to say that at some point you initiated 

a -- what's known as an EIR, Enforcement 

Investigative Report, concerning this matter? 

A I did. 

Q Okay. And during that -- as part 

of that, did you issue a what's commonly known 

as a letter of investigation? 

A I did. 

Q And showing you what I'v e marked 

as CIO, do you recogniz e CIO? 

A I do. 

(202) 234-4433 

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Q And is that the letter of 

investigation you sent? 

It is 

Q Okay. Did you get any response to 

this letter? 

No 

MR. BROWN; Your Honor, at this 

time, I move to admit C8, C9, and CIO. 

MR. TIERNAN: No objection, 

JUDGE GOODWIN; C8, C9, and CIO 

marked for identification are received as 

Complainant's C8, 9, and 10 respectively. 

(Complainant's Exhibits C8, C9, and CIO 

admitted) 

Q Now, in concluding your report in 

December of 2009, did you have any additional 

email conversation with Mr . Tiernan concerning 

this matter? 

A Ask that question again. 

Q In December of 2009, did you have 

an additional email conversation with Mr. 

Tiernan concerning the matter of this report? 

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A Yes. 

Q I'm showing you what I've marked 

as Cll. Mr. Stewart, is Cll the email you 

just referred to? 

A It is. 

Q All right. The second page is 

your message and the first page is the 

response; is that correct? 

A Yes, it is. 

Q All right. And the relevant 

portion here is your first sentence, the 19 

flights, were they revenue and the answer at 

the top, yes? 

A Yes. 

Q All right. 

MR. BROWN: Move for admission of 

Cll, Your Honor. 

MR. TIERNAN: Just (indiscernibleaway from microphone) take a look at this. 

I'm sorry. I missed that last part. You said 

the -- it says 19 flights conducted between 

(indiscernible-away from microphone). Oh, I 

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see. Okay. Okay. No objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Just to 

make sure I -- the certified letter is 10; is 

that correct? 

MR. BROWN: Correct. Letter of 

investigation. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And 11 of which 

you're seeking admission is the two-page email 

dated, on the first page, 12/3/2009. 

MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Okay, No 

objection having been heard, Cll for 

identification is received into evidence as 

Complainant's 11. 

(Complainant's Exhibit Cll admitted) 

MR. TIERNAN: I'm just not sure 

how this is 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, if it's not 

relevant, it'll go to weight. 

MR. TIERNAN: Okay. Yeah. No 

objection, 

Mr. Stewart, I neglected to ask 

(202) 234-4433 

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one additional question with respect to C7. 

It's the multi-page email. The question is 

this. The first emails, the last two pages 

are in March and then we jump to July, so one 

might presume from C7 that there really wasn't 

any contact between you and Bush Air Cargo 

between March and July. Is that a correct 

statement? 

Q 

I don't believe so. 

You believe there was some contact 

between you? 

A Yes. 

Q All right. Is it common to go 

several months between contacts with the 

operators that you're 

MR. TIERNAN: I'm going to object 

to that. I think he -- misstatement of fact. 

You said it's from March. These emails start 

in July. Oh, I'm sorry. March 13th. Okay. 

There -- but that's --oh, I see what you're 

saying. Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead. 

Q The question I just posed is --

(202) 234-4433 

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I'll try to restate it. In essence going 

several months between contacts with the 

operators that you -- for which you're 

assigned POI, is that common? 

A Not common, but it is known to 

occur and that's based on the size and scope 

of the operator. For example, I would have 

less contact with a single-pilot operator than 

I would with a full-blown commuter. 

Q Now I'm going to show you what 

I've marked as C12. And for the record, what 

is C12? 

A C12 is a copy of Appendix B from 

Order 2153D and considers the table of 

sanctions for enforcement programs except 

HazMat or hazardous materials. 

Q All right. And speed this up a 

little bit. This basically lists the 

sanctions starting within ranges for various 

violations, correct? 

A Correct. 

Q All right. And turning to, if you 

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would. Page B12, specifically Figure Bl(c). 

Does that deal with failure to comply with 

operations specifications? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. And sub 2 in there, is that 

the one applicable here? 

A Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. What 

page are we on, Mr. Brown? 

MR. BROWN: B12 and we're talking 

Figure Bl(c) sub 2. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So Bl(c) sub 2 

would be operation contrary to Ops Spec, 

technical noncompliance. 

MR. BROWN: Right. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; And the comment 

would be civil penalty (indiscernible-away 

from microphone). 

Q How significant is it to you as a 

POI that an operator's not complying with its 

Ops Specs? 

A Very significant. 

(202) 234-4433 

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Q How so? 

A Operations specifications are in 

essence a contractual agreement between the 

FAA and an operator wherein they agree this is 

the way we are going to conduct and the only 

way we're going to conduct our operations. 

Q Do you have the ability to in 

essence daily monitor your various operators? 

A Yes. 

Q I mean could -- is there that many 

hours in a day that you could actually go by 

and see each one every day? 

Q 

comply? 

No 

So you need to rely on them to 

Yes 

Q Do you see your role as one of 

quality control for the air carriers you --

doing your assignment? 

A If I understand the question, no. 

Q It's they're responsibility to 

comply. 

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MR. BROWN: At this point, I move 

for admission of C12. 

MR. TIERNAN: No objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. You 

said no objection? The reason -- I'm getting 

-- Mr. Brown's aware, but I've got a hearing 

problem and sometimes I can hear and sometimes 

I can't 

document? 

MR. TIERNAN: Can I voir dire this 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

VOIR DIRE BY MR. BROWN: 

Q Mr. Stewart, what's this document 

intended to do? What's the purpose of this 

document? 

A To give a baseline indication of 

what sanction would be appropriate given the 

circumstances of the violation. 

Q So it's a recommendation. 

A Correct. 

Q Okay, And who develops this 

(202) 234-4433 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 12 

for identification is received into evidence 

as Complainant's 12. 

(Complainant's Exhibit 12 admitted) 

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED 

BY MR. BROWN: 

Q Couple -- a few more questions 

here. Mr. Stewart, now when you and I were 

preparing for this hearing last Tuesday I 

believe, I showed you a response from Bush Air 

Cargo to a motion. Do you recall that? 

I do 

And there was an Exhibit 4 which 

is a list of pilots. Do you recall seeing 

that list? 

I do 

Q Now, prior to my showing it to you 

on October 12th of this year, had you ever 

seen that list before? 

No, I had not 

Q Had you ever in any of your 

discussion s with anybody a t Bush Air Cargo 

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heard of such a list? 

Q 

No. 

If Mr. Tiernan had asked you 

whether that would comply such that he 

wouldn't need to comply with -- he could do 

that in lieu of complying with A039, what 

would you have told him? 

A No. 

Q Why do you say that? 

A A03 9 which is intended to singlepilot command operators who are allowed a 

pilot in command and up to three second in 

commands is similar to AO40 which is specific 

to single-pilot operations in which there is 

a single pilot in command, no SICs. Those 

were intended specifically as the list -- or 

the means by which you list who the flight 

crew is for the particular operation 

conducted. 

Q If you look at C5, which would be 

AO08, I believe it's on the second page, 

paragraph D(l)(b). 

(202) 234-4433 

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Q D(l)(b). 

A Okay. 

Q I believe you testified before 

that AO08 is issued to all carriers large and 

small. 

A Yes. 

Q Right. 

A That is correct. 

Q So now A039 and AO40, if I 

understand what you just said, those are 

specific to single-pilot operations. 

A Well, specifically A039 is singlepilot command and AO40 is single pilot. They 

are -- they are distinctly different. 

Q But the one thing they have in 

common is they're for single-pilot operations. 

Q 

Yes. 

And so if you didn't have a 

single-pilot operation, you wouldn't be 

issuing A039 or AO40. 

A True. 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 ae^gfoss.c 
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Q So, what is your understanding of 

that word there in the next to the last 

sentence if applicable? 

A That if -- that each pilot that is 

to be listed, if those Ops Specs are relevant, 

that is where they are to be listed. 

Q So if one or the other has been 

issued, it must be complied with. 

A Yes. 

Q And if neither has been issued, 

then you can use the separate list. 

A Yes. 

Q But as I understood your 

testimony, Mr. Tiernan or no one else from 

Bush Air Cargo asked you that question. 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Q In your nine years of experience 

with the FAA, have you ever seen a list 

similar to the Exhibit 4 I showed you on the 

12th of October this year? 

A No, not in that format. 

MR. BROWN: Nothing further. Your 

(202) 234-4433 

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Honor, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So let me, in its 

simplest form, make sure I understand. 

Essentially what you're saying is that there 

were 19 flights flown where the, my words, 

second officer who wasn't listed as on the Ops 

Spec as being properly certified to fly that 

particular -- the person may have had a 

legitimate pilot's license, but in order for 

him to fly -- or her to fly one of Mr. 

Tiernan's aircraft, he had to be listed as 

either a pilot or second in command in order 

to fly. Is that the 

MR. BROWN: That's the gist of it. 

If I may restate, basically you have one PIC 

and then you could have up to three SICs is 

the testimony came out. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. Second in 

command. 

MR. BROWN: Second in command. So 

he had -- basically the company could not use 

a person as second in command unless the 

(202) 234-4433 

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person was listed in A039. That's our 

position. That's what Mr. Stewart just 

testified to. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: But a person who 

was a PIC could fly as an SIC? 

MR. BROWN: Actually no. There's 

different positions. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. BROWN: I mean you could list 

a person as both PIC and SIC. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Just want 

to make sure I understand before Mr. Tiernan 

has a chance to cross. Cross, Mr. Tiernan? 

MR. TIERNAN: Yes. 

STEPHEN J. STEWART 

testified as follows on: 

CROSS EXAMINATION 

BY MR. TIERNAN: 

Q Mr. Stewart, was Bush Air Cargo 

required to provide you a pilots list of 

qualified pilots? Like a separate list? In 

other words, you said that you told -- you 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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testified that Mr. -- or that I was never --

Bush Air Cargo never provided you that exhibit 

that we call Exhibit 4. But is Bush Air Cargo 

required to give you that list? 

A No. 

Q Okay. And they're just required 

to keep that list for your inspection upon 

demand, correct? 

A Correct. 

Q And you never demanded or you 

never requested to see that pilot list, did 

you' 

A No 

Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; So I understand 

your question, whether or not -- they don't 

have to provide to the FAA the form that's 

filled out 

MR. TIERNAN: That's correct 

JUDGE GOODWIN: unless 

requested, 

MR. TIERNAN: That's correct 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. '.ne^^ i ;oss.com 
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JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 

MR. TIERNAN: Okay. 

Q And does the Ops Specs specify 

what format that pilot list must be kept? 

A Which Ops Spec? 

Q I'm sorry. It's AO08(d)(1)(b). 

A In my opinion, yes, it does. In 

the case of a single-pilot command or a 

single-pilot operator, the flight crew members 

must be listed on the respective Ops Spec. 

Q Oh, no. I'm talking about -- this 

is Ops Spec (d)(1)(b)(2), which says -- could 

you get that out? It's my Exhibit 4. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Which exhibit? 

MR. TIERNAN: Exhibit 4. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Yeah, but your 

question 

MR. TIERNAN: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm 

sorry. That's not correct. It's Exhibit 7. 

MR. BROWN: It's also the second 

page of Exhibit C5, Your Honor. 

MR. TIERNAN: You know what, let's 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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just stay with C5. Make it simple. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: But I thought your 

question was did it specify a format. 

MR. TIERNAN: Yes. In other words 

I can start over. Your Honor. 

Let's 

JUDGE GOODWIN: 

MR. TIERNAN: Okay, 

JUDGE GOODWIN; 

All right 

Rephrase the 

question. 

The sentence in (d) (1) (b) (2) , C5, 

Page 2, halfway down that paragraph B, it says 

each pilot must specifically -- each pilot 

must be specifically listed by name and airman 

certificate number on a list of pilots 

maintained by the certificate holder at its 

main base of operation. Okay. So does our 

Exhibit C4 -- or I'm sorry -- our Exhibit 4 

satisfy that requirement? 

A These are your exhibits? 

Q 

bottom. 

Yeah. So it'l l be number 4 a t the 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nee&^oss.com 
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JUDGE GOODWIN: But just to 

clarify the record, Counsel's referring to 

Page 2 of 5, small d, paren 1, close paren, 

which is crew member requirements and under 

that paren small b, close parens, and it's --

looks like it's the second sentence beginning 

each pilot. 

MR. TIERNAN: That's correct. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And you refer to 

which exhibit, Mr. Tiernan? 

MR. TIERNAN: Respondent's Exhibit 

4. For the pilot, the pilot list. 

Q And my question is does that 

satisfy this Ops Spec, this first part of the 

sentence, each pilot must be specifically 

listed by name and airman certificate number 

on a list of pilots maintained by the 

certificate holder? 

A In my opinion, no. 

Q And why not? 

A The rest of the sentence which you 

did not read is or listed in Operations 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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Specification A039 or AO40 

Okay. We'll get to that. But up 

to that point, is it satisfied? 

A It satisfies the general thrust of 

that paragraph in particularly -- in 

particular its reference to 135.63. 

Q Okay. So I'm just trying to 

figure out where you're going with this. So 

is it your opinion that the operator must 

maintain a pilots list and list that pilot in 

the Ops Specs? 

A Yes. 

Q And this -- okay. 

A I do. 

Q Okay. So with keeping that list 

at the operator's place of business, does our 

Exhibit 4 satisfy that requirement for keeping 

the list at -- for that part -- the list at 

the operator's main offices? Does that 

satisfy that? 

A For that single part. 

Q Yes. 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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A Specifically if they have a list 

of crew members. 

A 

Q 

Correct 

Yes 

Okay, Now, in -- what you're 

saying is that we also -- or Bush Air Cargo 

also had to list that SIC in its Ops Specs. 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. So that brings us to the 

second part. So we satisfied the -- or Bush 

Air Cargo satisfied the first part. We got 

our maintenance -- we got our list of pilots 

maintained at the office. Okay? So now we 

have the second part of the sentence which 

obviously the certificate action was all 

about. And so it starts maintain --

certificate holders are its main base of 

operations. Okay. And then you have an or, 

the first or, correct? It says or listed in 

Operations Specifications A039 or AO40 if 

applicable. Now it's your position that that 

sentence requires the operator to list this 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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-- I'm sorry -- A039, should be listed in 

that, correct? 

A Correct. 

Q Okay. Now, the or -- the first 

or. Okay. It says or listed in Operations 

Specifications A039. Okay. And we can 

basically take the second or out AO40, but up 

until that point, if you don't have if 

applicable in there, do you have any question 

whether you can have either/or. You can 

either have the -- you can either have the 

list at the office or -- or list them in the 

Ops Specs, without the rest of the sentence. 

Would that be your interpretation? Does that 

make sense? 

A Yes, it makes sense, and no 

Q Okay. So when it says you 

maintain a list at the base of operations or 

listed in Operations Specifications A039, 

doesn't that give you the option of doing one 

or the other and your answer is no? Or does 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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it give you the option of doing one or the 

other? 

Taken only like that and -- yes. 

but you're 

Q Okay. Now we get to the but. 

A You're parsing the sentence. 

Q I agree. Now we're going to get 

to the rest of the sentence which is the ugly 

part. Okay. Okay. Now, it says A -- or 

AO40, which doesn't apply because we don't 

have this. 

A Correct. 

Q Correct. Okay. And then it says, 

comma, if applicable. Now, if applicable, that 

is a clause that refers back to something 

that's going to turn this whole case on its 

head -- this whole sentence on its head, 

correct? 

Yes 

Okay. So what does if applicable 

refe r to? 

That 

(202) 234-4433 

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Which clause in that sentence? 

A 

clause. 

Specifically listed. Define 

Q Okay. Now obviously you're not a 

lawyer. Otherwise you'd be out stealing money 

from somebody, right. Okay. So you've had no 

training in contract instruction or have you? 

A No. 

Q Okay. Or rules of construction or 

-- in legal documents or technical writing? 

A No. 

Q Okay. So what you're saying is if 

applicable, that refers -- your argument as I 

understand it is if applicable basically 

states that if A039 is listed in the Ops Specs 

or Bush Air Cargo has A03 9, if applicable 

requires you to not only keep a list of pilots 

at the base of operations but also list that 

pilot in A039. 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Does if -- wouldn't it also 

refer to AO40? 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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A Yes. 

Q Okay. And wouldn't it also -- and 

it obviously applies to if applicable A039 

because it has an or in there; is that your 

position? 

A Yes. 

Q So wouldn't it also be relevant to 

or apply to at its main base of operations? 

And the only thing separating those three 

sentences are the word or. So 

Yes. 

Okay, So if applicable -- how 

about this. After base of operations, if you 

put an and in there, wouldn't that be more 

appropriate? In other words, you'd have to 

put holder at its main base of operation and 

listed in Operation Specification A039 or AO40 

if applicable? Wouldn't that make more sense? 

Wouldn't that be -- I mean to you as a 

layperson reading it. In other words, change 

that first or to an and. 

A No, because I believe that the 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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intent is that the controlling document in 

this sentence are the two A039 or AO40 or the 

record, if A039 and AO40 had not been issued. 

Q Okay, But you've already 

testified that the if applicable applies to 

the main -- keeping a list at your main base 

of operations too. It applies to all three 

clauses, correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. So doesn't that mean since 

they're all separated by origin, you can do 

any one of the three? 

Q 

Not in my opinion. 

Okay. When I first I don't 

like being my own attorney here because we 

know what happens. But when I first contacted 

you with regard to training up an SIC 

Yes 

Q 

a letter? 

do you recall me writing you 

Yes. 

If you look at our Exhibit Number 

(202) 234-4433 

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Q 

Yes, I recall this letter 

Okay. And essentially what does 

that letter state? 

A Intend to notify you of Bush Air 

Cargo's company training including new hire 

second officers beginning February 19th 

through February 23rd. 

Q Okay. And is that required by the 

Ops Specs of Bush Air Cargo, that letter -- in 

the training program? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. And how about Exhibit 2 --

our Exhibit 2. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So Respondent's 2? 

MR. TIERNAN: Yeah, Respondent's 

2. 

Q February 12th, 2009. 

A That's a letter of authorization 

written by me authorizing Alan Larson to 

conduct no more than two SIC checks for the 

benefit of Bush Air Cargo. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. 

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Q And will you testify to the facts 

that led up to that letter -- you issuing that 

letter? 

A You contacted me about the 

training and the subsequent need for checking 

of the airline's qualification and your dates 

conflicted with my schedule. I was not going 

to be available to do those checks. 

Q Okay. 

A So we reached a mutual and 

satisfactory compromise of having Alan do the 

checks in lieu of me. 

Q Okay. Do you recall anything 

about an urgency of getting an SIC done 

quickly -- SIC check ride done quickly? 

A Not specifically, but it's 

understandable given my knowledge of your 

operation. 

Q Uh-huh. And what was that? 

A That the bulk of your flying done 

in winter on skis. 

Q Okay. 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. 

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A And that that window was narrow. 

Q Right. Do you recall if there --

in that particular situation if we intended to 

use Mr. Koon immediately after the check ride? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. 

MR. TIERNAN: I'd like to move for 

admission of Respondent's Exhibits 1 and 2. 

MR. BROWN: No objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 1 and 

2 for identification are received into 

evidence as Respondent's 1 and 2. 

(Respondent's Exhibits 1 and 2 admitted) 

Q And then could you take a look at 

Exhibit -- Respondent's Exhibit 3. 

A Exhibit 3 is an FAA Form 84103 

typically used document that an airman has be 

given a competency or proficiency check. 

Q Okay. And is that your name at 

the bottom? Do you recognize that name? It's 

not you. 

At the bottom? 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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Yeah. 

You mean the lower right-hand 

Yes 

It is blank. 

Oh. 

In Exhibit 3? 

Yeah. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; The Court's is 

blank as well 

MR. TIERNAN: Oh, that's for an 

FAA inspector. 

Q Do you know who filled out this 

document by any chance? 

A I recognize the name -- the 

printed name and signature of the check 

airline who is Alan G. Larson. 

Q Okay. Okay. And in your opinion, 

does this document basically satisfy 

requirements of qualifying Mr. Koon as an SIC 

in Bush Air Cargo? 

A Yes. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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Q Okay. So up to this point and up 

to this check ride. Bush Air Cargo's done 

everything appropriate according to its 13 5 

specification; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

MR. TIERNAN: I'd like to move for 

admission of Exhibit -- Respondent's Exhibit 

Number 3. 

MR. BROWN: Object. Foundation. 

That has not been authenticated. He said he's 

never seen it. We don't know where it came 

from. He recognizes Alan Larson's signature, 

but beyond that we need a foundation. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; 

objection at this time. 

I'll sustain the 

MR. TIERNAN: Okay. 

Q Was it your -- have you ever seen 

this document before? Is it in your records, 

Mr. Stewart? 

A No. 

Q Okay. Do you have any reason to 

believe Mr. Koon was not qualified as an SIC 

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A No. 

Q Okay. And was there any type of 

question whether or not up to this point -- up 

to the date of this check ride -- this 

apparent check ride of course, February 21, 

2009, was there any question or -- was there 

any question whatsoever that Mr. Koon was not 

qualified? 

No 

Q Was there any question subsequent 

to this date that he was qualified up to that 

point? For example, there's no allegation 

that Mr. Koon was not qualified because he 

wasn't properly -- didn't properly have a 

check ride? 

A No, there isn't. 

Q Okay. And the only reason we're 

here essentially is that Mr. Koon was listed 

on the -- in A039, correct? 

A Correct. 

Q Okay. Is -- Exhibit 3, is that a 

(202) 234-4433 

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A It is a -- repeat the question. 

please 

Q Is this a standard form document? 

A Yes. 

Q And what does it signify? 

A It signifies that a particular 

airman was tested and either found competent 

or not competent in the multitude of tasks 

listed in the various fields. 

Q 

A 

Q 

Okay. And for what company? 

For Bush Air Cargo. 

Okay, 

MR. TIERNAN; I would move for 

admission just for the fact that there was a 

check ride completed and this document existed 

at February 21, 2009. 

MR. BROWN: Same objection. Your 

Honor, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll sustain it at 

this point. 

MR. TIERNAN: Okay. I'l l move on. 

(202) 234-4433 

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under the impression while you knew we'd given 

check rides. When did you first discover --

well, obviously when did you first discover 

Mr. Koon was qualified and was performing 

revenue flights? 

A I don't know for certain. 

Q Okay. It was -- I think you 

testified before it was around July? 

A Yes. 

Q That you inquired? I think the 

emails reflect that. 

A Yes, I would agree. 

Q Okay. Did you know -- or did you 

-- was that a concern of yours -- I guess what 

I'm getting at is why the four-month period? 

What happened in that four-month where you 

decided our -- when you inquired about whether 

or not Mr. Koon had been added to the Ops 

Specs? If you recall. 

A Well, I would have to conject 

based on my knowledge of what I do from day to 

(202) 234-4433 

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day, seasonally, that that would have been a 

period of time where we're starting to ramp up 

and doing far more checks than we do the rest 

of year, more surveillance of operators. 

They're gearing up for their summer season. 

Q So you don't recall any specific 

incident or anything that kind of clicked on, 

saying, hey, wait a minute, Koon's not on the 

Ops Specs? 

A No. 

Q No one else came to you and said, 

hey, what's going on here, this guy's not on 

the Ops Specs or whatever happened to this SIC 

ride or anything like that? 

A No. Again I would just have to --

I can't say for certain, Mr. Tiernan. What I 

believe is that I was probably conducting a 

task associated with your certificate and 

noticed then that he was not listed. And I 

believe that that is what is suggested in the 

string emails that we exchanged. It could 

have been as simple as, you know, the 

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discussion we had about Telaquana Lake and 

what you're required for -- and then the light 

goes on, oh, yeah, did you ever check that 

pilot out 

At the time -- well, you testified 

that violation of your Ops Specs is -- and I 

agree -- is a substantial and significant 

violation, not complying with your Ops Specs. 

A Yes. 

Q Don't you agree. I mean and it's 

severe and I understand that and you 

understand that obviously. I mean did it ever 

cross your mind -- well, let me ask, did you 

ever say anything to me or to anybody about or 

email or anything about adding Mr. Koon to the 

Ops Specs at any time prior to say June of 

2009? 

A No. 

Q Okay. Getting back to the 

language and you can look at C5, 1 of 2 -- or 

2 of 5 -- 2 of 6? Page 2, (d) (1) (b) . Getting 

back to that language again. 

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testified that if you put a after that 

first -- or that first or put an and in there, 

it would not be the same, it would be 

different. In other words, at its main base 

of operations and listed in Operations 

Specifications A039 or AO40 if applicable. 

Now you stated and testified that you believe 

the company's going to have to keep a list, 

which I totally agree with, and that they have 

to be listed in the Ops Specs. Don't you --

again I know I asked this question before, but 

after we've been -- after you think about it, 

if you change that first or to an and, 

wouldn't that really cover what you really 

want to say and what your interpretation is? 

In other words, each pilot must be 

specifically listed by name and airman 

certificate on a list of pilots maintained by 

the certificate holder at its main base of 

operations. There's your one requirement. 

And, 

MR. BROWN: Your Honor, I have to 

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object. This sounds like simply argument --

our main question and I believe any question 

he could ask at this point has been asked and 

answered. We've been over this. So I would 

object to any further comments on the writing. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 

sustain because in your cross, you got the 

witness to admit that he's not trained legally 

and I think you're I certainly think it 

goes to argument and what ifs I think don't 

really help the Court in deciding what's --

where we are and where we're going. 

Q A n d th e purpos e of 

AO08(2) (d) (1) (b) , the purpose of that is to 

essentially assure operational control of the 

operation; is that your interpretation? I 

think you testified to words to that effect. 

A In that specific regard, yes. 

Q Okay. And then for A039, isn't 

that the same thing? Isn't that the same, to 

guarantee operational control of those people 

and make sure that only those people have 

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operational control over the company? 

A No. 

Q Okay. What would be the purpose 

of A039 then? 

A To list those flight crew members 

who are only to be used in the operation, but 

the SICs listed might not have operational 

control. 

Q I totally agree with that. 

A So that's why no. 

Q Okay. So -- but don't they 

address the same thing. AO08 states all 

pilots and A039 lists all pilots. 

A Correct. 

Q Okay. So don't they have the same 

purpose to assure operational control in their 

own capacities? In other words, you have the 

director of maintenance listed for operational 

control purposes, correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. So doesn't AOO8 and A039 

basically have the same purpose to assure 

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operational control? One is more specific 

than the other. One lists those people and 

the other one basically tells you how you list 

them. 

A Stated in that manner then, based 

on your question, 

Uh-huh, 

no. because as you're 

stating, this has the ultimate weight for 

operational control, AO08. 

Q AO08. 

A Where A03 9 like AOO6 or AOO7 are 

very narrow aspects. These are the people. 

Q So '08 basically says keep a list 

of pilots or comply with '39 and '39 basically 

lists specifically the pilots. 

A Yes. 

Q So they complement each other. 

A Correct. 

Q How long does it typically take to 

modify operations specifications? 

A It depends. It is a software 

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application-based program. Typically if all 

the stars align, you can change an Ops Spec in 

say 15, 20 minutes. 

Q Okay. 

A On other occasions, the system's 

down, it may take days. 

Q Okay. Who -- and weeks, months 

sometimes? 

A No I have not seen it more than 

a couple days 

Q More than a couple days? 

A Yeah. 

Q Okay. And does it require the POI 

for a certain operator to change those or does 

it -- anybody can change them. 

A Correct. 

Q Okay. Anybody can change them. 

A Under the direction of the POI. 

Q Okay. 

A There are Ops Specs that not every 

discipline can manipulate. I can do all the 

A's and the B's and the C's, but not the 

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maintenance Ops Specs. 

Okay, Were you in this 

particular situation, are you uniquely 

qualified to change A03 9 to add Mr. Koon? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. And how long would it take 

you to do that upon request? 

A 15 minutes. 

Q Okay. And who else would be able 

to do that besides you? 

A Other ops inspectors, maintenance 

inspectors. If delegated to do so, aviation 

safety technician. 

Q Getting back to C5, second page, 

the last sentence for that paragraph, it says 

this information must be available for 

inspection by the administrator as specified 

in Section 135.63. Okay. And that refers to 

what? 

A Yes. All records that an operator 

must be maintain -- that must be available for 

inspection are specifically listed in that 

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rule. 

Okay. It says this information. 

So this information. 

A This information being these 

pilots. 

Q Okay. The list of pilots. 

Q 

Correct. 

Okay. And there's no requirement 

here to provide that list of pilots, is there, 

to the FAA or to the POI? 

A Yes. On request. 

Q On request. But otherwise there 

is none. You have to request it before it's 

-- in other words, the operator doesn't have 

to submit a list every two months or 

every. 

No 

Q 

Q 

changes or something 

No. 

Okay. So essentially if you 

maintain this pilot's list, you eventually 

maintain it -- or actually -- yeah. Any other 

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operator has a multi-pilot operation. Are 

they required to give you anything other --or 

anything more than -- or be required to do 

anything more than just keep a list on their 

own and not notify the FAA about second in 

commands or the firing of second in commands 

or the addition. 

That's correct, unless otherwise 

requested. 

Q Unless requested. 

A Yeah. 

Q How many operations are there like 

Bush Air Cargo where you have a single-pilot 

PIC with SICs? How many do you know of? 

A In this region, I believe you're 

the only one . 

Have you seen -- you probably 

weren't 

48, yeah. 

There are far more in contiguous 

Right. So this A039, that's your 

interpretation of having to -- the FAA's in 

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this case interpretation of having to list 

those SICs -- it's a very unique situation. 

correct? 

A 

Q 

A 

whole. 

In this region. 

In this region. 

Yeah. But not in the FAA as a 

Q Sure. 

MR. TIERNAN: Your Honor, may I 

request a brief five minutes. I'm sure Mr. 

Stewart's getting tired. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. Actually I 

usually break about 10:30 or so. Let's take 

a ten-minute break. 

MR. TIERNAN: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: We'll go off the 

record. 

(Off record) 

(On record) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Remind the witness 

you're still under oath. 

Mr. Stewart, when you determined 

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that a certificate -- or a civil penalty may 

be in line or when you discovered that you 

believed there was a violation, did you go 

right to A039 and not consider AO08 or did you 

-- that didn't cross your mind checking AO08? 

A I don't recall. 

Q You don't recall. Okay. In your 

opinion, does Ops Spec AOO8 have anything to 

do with this violation? 

A No. 

Q Okay. 

MR. TIERNAN: I have no further 

questions. Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect? 

MR. BROWN: Briefly, Your Honor. 

Thank you. 

STEPHEN J. STEWART 

testified as follows on: 

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BROWN: 

Q Looking at C5, the paragraph on 

the second page we've been looking at, I 

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notice, you know, at the bottom that there's 

a reference to 135.63. Is it fair to say to 

135.63 basically lists the records that the 

company's supposed to keep including pilot 

records? 

A Yes 

Q All right. And that would be 

something available for you to look at if you 

did what's called a base inspection; is that 

a fair statement? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Do you recall doing any 

base inspections on Bush Air Cargo? 

A Yes. 

Q When, if you recall or -- I know 

I'm putting you on that spot. 

A They have been -- they have been 

conducted in -- concurrently to check rides or 

observations of a training program and my 

recollection is typically in the spring, 

February, March, somewhere in there. 

Q February and March. Do you recall 

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in 2009 that you did a base inspection? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall about when it was? 

A Other than to say it was winter, 

no. I'm guessing -- I'm going to say March 

and I know that it was in the spring because 

it was conducted at what I believe is now 

called Mustang Air at Palmer Airport and it 

was just blowing like crazy and the ramp, 

parking lots were all a glaze of ice with a 

thin layer of water over them and I recall how 

challenging it was just to get from a vehicle 

into the building without getting blown over. 

Q So that was March, you said. 

A I believe March, yes. 

Q Yeah. I believe you testified 

earlier that you couldn't do the check rides 

the latter part of February because you were 

otherwise busy; is that correct? 

Correct 

Okay, Where were you at that 

period of time? 

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A I was in Honolulu getting type 

rated in a Super 3. 

Q And when did you get back from 

that, do you recall? 

A The 2nd or 3rd of March. 

Q It was after you got back that you 

did the base inspection. 

A Yes. 

Q All right. If you'll look at 

Respondent's Exhibits, Exhibit 4, did you see 

what's been marked as Exhibit 4 when you did 

your base inspection in March of 2009 at Bush 

Air Cargo? 

A No, I did not. 

Q If you would look at Exhibit 3 for 

just a moment. You testified earlier you 

don't recall ever having seen this; is that 

correct? 

That is correct. 

Q Right. The question I would ask 

is, is the form itself -- never mind, you 

know, what's written on here, but just the 

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form itself, when it is filled out, is that 

something that is typically sent to you as the 

POI? 

I take my own -- let me explain 

that this is a -- when it's provided by the 

FAA, it's a three-page NCR. If I do the 

check, I take the bottommost copy for my 

records and the top two copies for the 

operator. Typically one goes in the pilot's 

record book with the reflection of checks and 

training, et cetera, and the second is often 

given to the pilot for his personal records. 

But 

All right. You said when you do 

it. What about in the circumstance reflected 

in Exhibit 3 where another check airman has 

done that check. In that circumstance, is 

that something that would typically -- would 

you be given a copy of it? 

No 

Q So the fact that you don't recall 

seeing this would not be unusual given the 

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information provided on it 

A Given the circumstance that I did 

not do the check, no, it would not be unusual 

that I did not see a copy of it. 

MR. BROWN: Nothing further, Your 

Honor. 

points 

MR. TIERNAN: Just two short 

STEPHEN J. STEWART 

testified as follows on; 

RECROSS EXAMINATION 

BY MR. TIERNAN: 

Q One, Mustang Air is not Bush Air 

Cargo's base of operations, correct? 

A Correct. 

Q Okay. And then if -- I guess the 

presumption here is that Bush Air Cargo did 

not have a list of pilots at the time because 

-- well, would you -- is that something you'd 

be looking for in the documents in the -- in 

your base inspection at Mustang Air? 

A A list of pilots? 

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Q Yeah. 

A No. 

Q Okay. And do you recall a list --

I mean obviously if we didn't have one, you 

would have said where's your list of pilots. 

correct? 

Yes What I believe requires 

clarification is that you have a binder set up 

for each of these people. You have an 

independent record for each one of these 

individuals listed on this sheet 

MR. BROWN; For the record. Your 

Honor, that would be Exhibit 4 

A Exhibit 4. Listing of qualified 

crew per AOO8. The individual folders you 

have for each of those crew members listed is 

the equivalent of this list. You are in 

compliance with 135.63. 

Q I agree. 

A Okay. 

Q I agree. 

A So I don't understand your 

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question then. 

Well, does not AO08 require a list 

of pilots? 

A Yes 

Okay. Did that qualify as the 

list of pilots? 

A It qualifies as a list of pilots. 

Q Okay. And you don't ever remember 

our -- do you ever recall Bush Air Cargo not 

complying with that -- with AOO8 with regard 

to the pilot list? 

A No. I'm stating that I have not 

seen this list. 

Q Okay. And you've never requested 

it. Or you've never requested a pilots list. 

A Using that word list, no. 

Q Yeah. 

A Pilot records, yes. 

Q Yeah. Okay. Okay. But the Ops 

Spec doesn't require you to keep it in every 

individual's binder, correct? 

A Yes, because of the reference to 

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135.63, recordkeeping. 

Q But doesn't -- the Ops Spec says 

list of pilots maintained by the certificate 

holder at its base of operations. So isn't 

that a separate list you have to keep at the 

base of operations, like, for example, in the 

Ops Specs -- maybe keep it in your Ops Specs? 

Pilot list? 

A In the Ops Spec for a single-pilot 

command, but you wouldn't for a full-blown 

operator. 

Q Okay. I agree. 

A Okay. 

Q Okay. So Mustang Air was not the 

base of operations. You don't recall, you 

know, any violation of not complying with AO08 

-- of not keeping a pilots list, correct? 

A No, I did see pilot records. 

Q Okay. 

A But not a list. 

Q But not that particular one. 

Correct 

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Q Okay. And you never requested it. 

A Not the list, but again I did 

request the records. 

Q Okay. Okay. 

A So I accomplished the equivalent. 

Q Do you have any reason to believe 

that Mr. Koon was not checked out on that 

particular day? Do you recall? 

A No. As far as I know, he was 

checked out. 

Q He was checked out that day. And 

do you recall ever talking to Mr. Larson 

afterwards in your capacity with, you know, 

bird dogging Trans Northern about that check 

ride or referencing it at all? 

A Yes, 

Q Okay. And he confirmed that he 

took the check -- he did the check ride and 

everything turned out okay? 

A Yes. He confirmed that he did Mr. 

Koon's check and only the one check. 

Q That's correct. Okay. And tha t 

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was what probably ended Probably in March when 

you got back from Hawaii? 

A No. Actually I believe it was 

later in July. 

Q Later? Oh, later in July. Okay. 

So before then -- okay. Well, at all any 

time, did you ever -- it never crossed your 

mind that Mr. Koon was not checked out in 

February? 

A No. 

MR, TIERNAN: No further 

questions. Your Honor 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Done with this 

witness. Counsel? Oh, we've got that 

inquisitive look on his face 

MR. BROWN: Yeah. Let me ask just 

one more to make clarification here. 

STEPHEN J. STEWART 

testified as follows on: 

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BROWN; 

We've talked a little bit about 

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Exhibit 4. The question I wanted to ask to 

clarify your earlier testimony, have you ever 

seen a list similar to Exhibit 4? It may have 

a different SIC, but a list similar to that at 

any time at Bush Air Cargo? 

No 

MR. BROWN: Okay. Nothing 

further. 

shot 

question. 

MR. TIERNAN: Okay. One more 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So only one other 

MR. TIERNAN: Okay. So — yeah. 

STEPHEN J. STEWART 

testified as follows on; 

RECROSS EXAMINATION 

BY MR. TIERNAN: 

Isn't there another document that 

keeps the hours of the pilots and the SICs to 

maintain -- to make sure they don't go over 

their restrictions for hours? 

Yes, the record of flight and 

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duty. 

Okay. And that includes all the 

pilots, correct 

Yes. 

of an operation? 

Yes 

Q And so would that essentially be 

the equivalent of a pilot's list? 

A Loosely interpreted. 

Okay. 

MR. TIERNAN: No further 

questions 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you can step 

down. I will remind you that you're still 

under oath until the conclusion of the 

hearing. Ask you not to discuss your 

testimony with anybody prior to the conclusion 

of the hearing. 

MR. STEWART: I understand, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Brown, 

MR. BROWN: Your Honor, I believe 

we've offered and you've admitted Exhibit Cl 

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through Cll. If we can. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I have you 

admitted Cl through 12. The sanction table 

was 12. 

MR. BROWN: Oh, 12. Thank you, 

Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I can withdraw it 

if you want me to 

out 

MR. TIERNAN: I was just pointing 

MR, BROWN: Thank you. Your Honor, 

With that we rest. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; What I do, Mr 

Tiernan, with the sanctions table is it's --

Counsel of the FAA, routinely offers that in 

all cases and I generally take judicial notice 

of the regulation applicable to the time of 

the violation -- or alleged violation, one of 

the reasons being that the table of sanctions 

and its supporting regs can be quite thick and 

I would run out of room in my file drawer if 

I put it in, but I'll admit it but will look 

(202) 234-4433 

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to the original. So, Mr, Tiernan, your 

pleasure. 

MR. TIERNAN: Okay. Venturing 

into the awkwardness of representing a company 

you're the 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Now, if you're 

going to testify, I'm going to have to swear 

you as a witness. 

MR. TIERNAN: Yeah. Let's do 

that, 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Stand and raise 

your right hand, 

(Oath administered) 

MR, TIERNAN: Yes, Your Honor. 

BARTON M. TIERNAN 

called as a witness on behalf of the 

respondent, testified as follows on: 

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

JUDGE GOODWIN: State your full 

name for the record and spell your first and 

last name 

Barton M. Tiernan, B-A-R-T-0-N. 

(202) 234-4433 

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Last name Tiernan, T-I-E-R-N-A-N. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll give you some 

latitude, but I'm not going to allow you to 

get into a long 

A It's going to be very short. 

First of all 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Famous last words. 

Mr. Brown, make a note of that. 

MR. BROWN: Except for on cross 

examination for 

BY MR. TIERNAN: 

With regard to Exhibit 4, the 

pilot list, this list I routinely make out 

every time the circumstances change where I 

add or take away a pilot which essentially has 

only happened once in February with Mr. Koon. 

At the outset, we had a pilot list in 

compliance with AO08 and that was in -- I 

believe it was December 2007 and every time 

things changed, we made up that list again. 

We also -- in conjunction with that list, we 

also keep the hours for compliance with the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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FARs of the pilots -- of the sole PIC and SIC. 

And Exhibit 4 is a copy of that 

dociiment for the date listed on -- and that is 

a document of Exhibit 4 dated 2/22/09. I'd 

like to move for admission of Exhibit 4. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

MR. BROWN: May I voir dire? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION BY MR. BROWN 

Q Mr. Tiernan, Exhibit 4, the --

obviously what we have is a copy. When was 

the original created? 

A 

document. 

2/22/09 is the date on the 

All right. And are you the one 

that created this document? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you use a form like a previous 

one and simply change the date or is this --

did you really create it on that day? 

A You know, I did it a couple of 

times, two or three times, and I don't recall. 

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I made up this form myself, 

Q All right. But your testimony is 

that you did this on February 22nd, 2009, as 

shown in Exhibit 4, 

A I believe so. There -- I could 

have backdated it a couple days, but yes, 

Q So certainly by February the 24th, 

2009, the original of this document exist. 

That's your testimony, 

A Yes, 

MR, BROWN: Your Honor, my 

objections go to weight not its admissibility. 

so no objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: He's checking 

something. You may want to wait, 

MR, TIERNAN: Okay, I'm sorry, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, Let's go 

back. The reason the Court stopped is I 

wasn't sure that you weren't trying to -- the 

question that was pending was so on the 24th 

of February, the document existed. Your prior 

response had been you might have backdated it. 

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And at that point, you went through some of 

your documents, I didn't know whether you 

wanted to elaborate. 

MR. TIERNAN: Yeah. Let me just 

check. I'll stand by testimony. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Okay, At that 

point, Mr. Brown, you indicated your objection 

went to weight; is that correct? 

MR. TIERNAN: That's correct. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So noted. Exhibit 

4 for identification will be received in 

evidence as Exhibit 4. 

(Respondent's Exhibit 4 admitted) 

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED 

MR. TIERNAN; I also have -- I'm 

wondering if I -- I'm not sure if I should 

submit the rest of these forms. Okay. So 

yes, it's been admitted or 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. What was in 

the 

MR. TIERNAN: Exhibit 8 is the tax 

return for Bush Air Cargo for 2 009. That was 

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done just recently and it's dated 19/15/2010. 

Obviously that's a 10/15/2010. This is the 

2009 tax return that shows the -- a loss for 

the company for 2009. 2008 was also a loss 

and those are the only two tax years we have 

so far. 

Again the Bush Air Cargo is a 

small cargo operation. It flies approximately 

-- I think we flew about 105 hours in 2008 and 

about 120 hours approximately in 2009. And I 

would say that's not enough revenue flights to 

produce a profit for the company, but we're in 

hopes that it might produce more. 

And then I'd like to move for the 

admission of Exhibit 8. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Voir dire, Mr. 

Brown? 

MR. BROWN; No, Your Honor. No 

objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

Respondent's 8 for identification is received 

into evidence as Respondent's 8. 

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(Respondent's Exhibit 8 admitted) 

MR. TIERNAN: And saying that. 

Your Honor, there's a couple of points and one 

-- first point is that there was a -- more of 

an allegation that the pilots list did not 

exist. Of course my testimony is that it did 

exist. The reason why we did not add Mr. Koon 

to the Ops Specs was we believed that AOO8 

gave us the option of keeping a pilots list or 

putting Mr. Koon on the 13 5 list. That was my 

belief at the time. 

Four months went by. We got 

contacted by Mr. Stewart. Mr. Stewart 

basically didn't tell me there was a 

violation. He said words to the effect that, 

you know, why did you do this and I took that 

as a -- a better do it. We did it. I didn't 

think there would be a violation. 

At that point, I went through --

in fact I didn't think it would be a violation 

for maybe a month or two after that. I 

assumed Mr. Stewart was correct when he -- I'm 

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not even sure if he cited '39 -- or he 

probably did cite it. He had to. But I was 

under the impression that -- that it could be 

a violation if he chose. 

In December December came 

around and a violation -- or I got the letter 

of intent for certificate action -- or maybe 

it was for civil penalty, I researched it, 

I said I don't get this and I went through my 

Ops Specs again and I thought well, here's 

'O08, It essentially said you can do 

either/or and I thought I was good. 

There is -- the background of a 

small operator like me of Bush Air Cargo, we 

operate two, 50-, 60-year-old aircraft in an 

environment and regulatory environment that is 

designed for 2010 aircraft, basically Jephson 

turbines. It's very, very difficult to 

operate these aircraft for a profit. It's --

obviously I do other things. This is -- I'm 

trying to make this company go, but I have to 

say that the FAA could shut us down at any 

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1 time, I mean it would be super easy, 

2 I have been lucky to have a team 

3 of FAA people from the outset that have 

4 allowed us to operate the -- in today's 

5 environment with these old aircraft and the 

6 maintenance requirements on them, 

7 So stating that, it's -- although 

8 I've been lucky that I've had some really good 

9 people to work with at the FAA, it's still 

10 extremely difficult to comply with the FARs, 

11 We try -- try our best. Sometimes we let 

12 things slip. Sometimes we make mistakes, but 

13 we learn and we continue on, 

14 It's my position -- and as I've 

15 got a lot of experience in the aviation 

16 community and it's my experience that you get 

17 along with the FAA or you're out of business, 

18 My position has always been defer, defer, 

19 defer until -- you know, until it's going to 

20 cost you money, until it hurts your bottom 

21 line. Otherwise, you know, you better get 

22 along or you're out of business. And that's 

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basically our mentality at Bush Air Cargo and 

the people I work with out there and the 

mechanics I hire and all the people I work 

with, 

I don't believe our -- we honestly 

believe that AO08 gives us the option to go 

either way. Even so, if it doesn't, if 

there's a different interpretation of that, we 

don't believe that the amount is appropriate 

in this situation because of the profitability 

of the company. 

In any event, I don't believe --

there's no safety issues here. There haven't 

been any safety issues raised. If there's a 

violation, it's a technical one. I don't 

think the administrator can argue that AO08 is 

anything but confusing and I believe a 

technical reading of that would give you the 

option of either providing a pilot's list or 

listing your SIC in A039. And that's it. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, any 

cross? Now, just before we -- Mr. Tiernan, 

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the only exhibits I have admitted are letter 

1 -- or Exhibit 1, Exhibit 2, Exhibit 4 which 

is a listing of qualified crew, and your tax 

return. 

MR. TIERNAN: Everything else has 

been admitted in. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So they're 

duplicates? 

MR. TIERNAN: Yes, sir 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So you do not want 

to offer your Exhibit 3, 5, 6, or 7; is that 

correct? 

no. 3 

MR. TIERNAN: 3, yes, we -- oh. 

was 

JUDGE GOODWIN: 

MR. TIERNAN; 

Oh, no. 

they objected 

to. And that's fine. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, except there 

was an objection to 3. 

MR. TIERNAN: Right. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Lack of 

(202) 234-4433 

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foundation, so -- but as to 5, 6, and 7, what 

you're saying is they're duplicates and you'll 

not offer those; is that correct? 

MR. TIERNAN: That's correct. 

Because they're C8, C6, and C5. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Brown, 

BARTON M. TIERNAN 

testified as follows on; 

CROSS EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BROWN: 

Q Mr. Tiernan, you indicated in your 

opening statement you're also General Counsel 

for your company. Are you a licensed attorney 

in the State of Alaska? 

A Yes, I am. 

Q And how long have you been an 

attorney? 

A For -- since 1982, if you count a 

law degree or member of the Bar 

So you've been a member of the 

Alaska Bar since '82? 

Since '95 I believe. 

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Q All right. So you were previously 

a member of another Bar? 

A Washington State Bar Association, 

Q From '82? 

A Again 

About, 

A actually '83, 

Q I don't know if you have all of 

the paperwork and I don't -- you know, think 

I can safely say that we issued the notice of 

proposed civil penalty on December 16th, 2009, 

A Uh-huh, (Affirmative) 

Q Do you recall that? 

Q 

Yes, 

Okay. I believe that was one of 

the allegations in the complaint that was 

admitted. All right. I show you what I'm 

marking as C13. I didn't mean to throw it to 

you. And I'm also giving you a copy for your 

records. Mr. Tiernan, C13, is that your 

response to the notice of proposed civil 

penalty in this matter? Correct? 

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Yes. 

All right. 

MR. BROWN; Your Honor, at this 

time, I'm going to move to admit C13. 

MR. TIERNAN: No objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; C13 for 

identification is received in evidence as C13 . 

(Complainant's Exhibit C13 admitted) 

MR. BROWN: All right. 

Looking at the fourth page of 

C13 

Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 

the fourth page. 

Of C13. Is this C13? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: That would be the 

first 

Q And actually the third page is two 

sided. It's the page after the two-sided 

response form. 

A Okay. 

Q Okay. That's the tax return you 

submitted at that time for 2008. 

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A Yeah. 

Q And I believe it shows a profit, 

does it not? 

A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 

Q So now your previous testimony was 

that 2008 was a loss. 

A It was a loss, 

Q Okay, But this shows a profit, 

A This does show a profit, yes, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, I'm going 

to -- for record purposes, the backside of the 

reply to notice of proposed civil penalty 

which is three aught, the backside where 

there's a signature, I'm going to mark as Page 

4, which means the first page of the 2008 tax 

return will be Page 5 of 8, 

MR. BROWN: Thank you. Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I don't know if 

you want to rephrase your question so --

because your question had to do with the 2008 

tax return and you were referring to it as 

Page 4 and the Court's marked it as Page 5 of 

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MR. BROWN: Okay. It's Page 5, I 

believe the testimony is that we were 

referring to the first page of the tax return 

at all times. 

8. 

C13 

Q 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Which is Page 5 of 

MR. BROWN: Page 5 of 8 of Exhibit 

Mr, Tiernan, is it fair to say 

that the first two pages of this are a 

narrative, your -- basically your response to 

the notice of proposed civil penalty. 

A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 

Q And is it also 

say. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; 

Yes 

You have to 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Remember. 

Q All right. And again we can 

compare it if you need to. Is it fair to say 

that with the exception of the name of the 

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company being respondent in the complaint and 

being Bush Air Cargo, Inc., in the notice of 

proposed civil penalty, they otherwise read 

the same. It's the same allegations, correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Great, Now, is there anywhere in 

C13 where you mention what you've -- what's 

now been introduced as your Exhibit 4? 

A No, 

MR. BROWN: Nothing further. Your 

Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect of 

your own witness? 

MR. TIERNAN: Yeah. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I was going to say 

I heard through the grapevine of an attorney 

who put himself on the stand. The Judge who 

heard the case -- it was the most masterful --

because the attorney would ask himself 

questions and then respond. This is an 

administrative hearing and that would drag 

this case out for several days I'm sure. 

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MR. TIERNAN: I won't do that. 

BARTON M. TIERNAN 

testified as follows on: 

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. TIERNAN: 

Looking at the third paragraph in 

the letter of December 29, 2009, C13, it says 

taxable income was 40,020, line 30, tax is 

6,119, line 34, for a net income of 34,017, 

It does not include reserves or insurance. 

Approximately $35,000 for 2008, Although 

gross income was approximately the same in 

2009, the cost due to repairs and maintenance 

over $20,000 (indiscernible-away from 

microphone) et cetera. 

Although the tax return 

technically shows a profit, obviously reserves 

were not taken out, et cetera, and they 

weren't calculated into the tax return and I 

had a more competent CPA this year and he did 

a much better job at calculating my 

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profitability of the company. 

So the question did we operate at 

a loss in 2008 and the answer is yes, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything further, 

sir? Any further redirect? 

MR, TIERNAN: No, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any further cross? 

MR, BROWN: No, Your Honor, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Does that conclude 

the case then, Mr, Brown? Any rebuttal? 

Are 

MR, BROWN: None here. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. The 

respondent rests; is that correct? 

MR, TIERNAN: Yes, Your Honor, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Brown, do you 

have any rebuttal? 

MR. BROWN: Nothing further. Your 

Honor, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So the case 

is concluded. Well, let me put this out for 

your consideration. As Mr. Brown knows, 

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depending on the case, I give you the 

opportunity to submit briefs. This case is 

going to turn on the interpretation of the 

reg. Do the two of you want the opportunity 

to brief that or do you just want to move onto 

the subject, Mr. Brown? 

And I can tell you just in terms 

of thinking about it, if you decide that you 

want to brief it, I'm not going to make you 

brief it before December because I'm going to 

be gone in November and I'm not going to 

require you to do something that I'm not going 

be around to see it. 

MR. BROWN: I'd like to brief it. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Well, 

I guess that takes care of that one. 

MR. BROWN: (Indiscernible-away 

from microphone) like five pages or something? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, you know, I 

leave it to you. You know, I like to give 

everybody the opportunity to do so. Why don't 

we do this. I'll write this down so I won't 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nialr^oss.com 
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forget it. 

Mr. Brown, what if you were 

required to submit a brief on or before 

December 10th. 

MR. BROWN: I believe that is 

ample time. Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. BROWN: Appreciate that. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: But if I do that, 

that's going to require Mr. Tiernan to do 

something on or before Christmas Day. Do you 

want -- can you do something on or before 

December 24th or do you want to push the whole 

schedule out to January? 

MR. TIERNAN: (Indiscernible-away 

from microphone) I'd say yes, but let's 

do 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Brown, do you 

have use or lose? 

MR. BROWN; No In fact I'm 

desperate for anyone who wants to donate, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, okay. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www .nialr^( 'Oss.com 
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MR. BROWN: But don't qualify 

unfortunately. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Let's Mr. 

Brown, I'm going to ask you to submit your 

first brief on or before the 14th of January. 

Mr. Tiernan, you would then respond by the 

28th of January. Mr. Brown, if you want to do 

a rebuttal, I'll ask you to do it on or before 

-- I was going to do it before, but I know how 

the mail works. 

MR. BROWN: Very slowly up here. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; I'll make it due 

the 9th, Mr. Brown. 

MR. BROWN: Okay. So 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Now if anything 

comes up that interferes with that schedule, 

the two of you talk. If you can agree on a 

time schedule, Mr. Brown, email me an order 

and I'll sign it. But my view if the two of 

you can agree on something, I'm not going to 

get into a big discussion just -- I'm starting 

to move, Mr. Brown, towards the idea if you 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. n^alr^( 'oss.com 
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get in agreement on anything, shoot me an 

order, I'll sign it, and get it back out to 

you. I don't have this proprietary need to 

invent everything. 

MR. BROWN: Your Honor, the dates 

that I have are the 14th for my brief, 2 8th 

for the response, and then any rebuttal by 

February 9th? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. And if that 

becomes a problem, just let me know. You get 

snowed in or something like that. Does that 

work for you, Mr. Tiernan? 

does 

MR, TIERNAN: Yes, Your Honor, it 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, We will go 

off the record. Thank you, gentlemen, 

MR, BROWN: Thank you. Your Honor, 

(Off record) 

(END OF PROCEEDINGS) 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www .tiaii^t oss.com 
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57:12 68:8104:7 

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29:2,18,22 33:22 

34:9,16 38:15 

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102:22 103:3,9,17 

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face 91:15 

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110:10,21 

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100:6 

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7:21 14:6,7 28:14 

62:1,7,8,18 67:1,6 

68:17 69:182:21 

82:22 83:18 91:9 

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32:13 37:7,11 

38:9 39:3 54:14 

56:11,1957:5 

60:21 61:14,16 

69:3,4 72:2,2,13 

95:20 96:6 101:4 

108:16 109:15 

110:4,11 116:5 

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49:10,10,13 50:5 

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81:1886:1091:19 

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81:12 86:591:11 

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63:14 69:1671:19 

71:21 77:14 80:11 

83:13 84:1 

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43:17 51:4 57:21 

58:179:2 96:2 

104:18 114:1,20 

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64:18 69:2 85:12 

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33:2 38:19 39:13 

39:21 42:1144:6 

80:16 81:3 92:20 

98:12,17 102:21 

104:6 117:15 

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8:8,9 10:9 32:15 

32:15,18 33:19 

39:16 40:1,10 

42:5,6 55:8 58:7 

58:16 63:7 70:12 

72:8 73:6,12 83:5 

95:7,7 96:3,5 

103:19 108:4 

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115:10 116:4,9,20 

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4:3,14,18 5:22 6:4 

10:12 11:1,4,8,21 

12:4,7 14:8,14,18 

14:21 15:13,17,20 

15:22 16:3,11,14 

16:22 17:5,9 

19:16,20 20:5,10 

20:13,20 21:3,7 

21:10,14,22 27:8 

27:14,18 29:19 

30:2 32:3,14,22 

33:3,7,10 34:3,6 

36:10 38:2,7,11 

38:18 41:8,12,16 

43:5,12 45:149:2 

49:18 50:4,8,11 

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52:16 53:2,6,9 

54:1,9 62:15 

64:10 65:9 66:14 

68:20 73:6 80:12 

80:16,20 81:14 

91:13 92:1193:13 

93:20 94:2,7,13 

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99:6,10,19 100:16 

100:20 104:21 

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111:15 113:4,7,9 

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114:15,19 115:7,9 

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116:12,15 117:9 

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70:13 96:16 

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60:16 72:19 89:4 

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11:3 20:19 21:6 

26:22 31:15 32:5 

36:7 37:17 38:10 

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Nea l R. Gross S Co. 

202-234-443 3 

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87:13 91:12 93:21 

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98:11 100:18 

101:3 108:3 

109:17 111:11 

112:2 113:6,8,15 

113:19 115:6 

117:5,13,17 

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42:1192:19,21 

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idea 116:22 

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38:13 45:2 64:11 

99:11 100:21 

108:7 

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ignore 32:18 33:19 

immediately 64:4 

impression 69:2 

102:3 

incident 7:8 70:7 

incidents 13:11 

include 112:11 

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includes 93:2 

including 26:8 62:6 

82:4 

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income 10:15 112:9 

112:10,13 

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25:5 87:15 

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information 6:20 

7:4 26:8 77:16 

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23:12 

inherited 18:16 

initial 18:13 

initially 18:14 

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inquired 28:11 

69:11,18 

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inspection 51:7 

77:17,22 82:9 

83:1 84:7,12 

86:21 

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43:15 46:10,16 

64:3 

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32:21 33:2,20 

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72:15 73:16 79:22 

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35:18 36:2 38:6 

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25:11 35:4,17 

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19:3 22:9,15 23:2 

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4:18 5:22 6:4 

10:12 11:1,4,8,21 

12:4,7 14:8,14,18 

14:21 15:13,17,20 

15:22 16:3,11,14 

16:22 17:5,9 

19:16,20 20:5,10 

20:13,20 21:3,7 

21:10,14,22 27:8 

27:14,18 29:19 

30:2 32:3,14,22 

33:3,7,10 34:3,6 

36:10 38:2,7,11 

38:18 41:8,12,16 

43:5,12 44:15 

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50:8,1151:15,20 

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53:9 54:1,9 62:15 

64:10 65:9 66:14 

68:20 73:6 80:12 

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91:13 92:1193:13 

93:20 94:2,7,13 

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116:12,15 117:9 

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89:16 90:9,13 

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Nea l R. Gross & Co. , Inc . 

202-234-443 3 
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minutes 76:3 77:8 

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months 6:17,17 9:6 

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25:16 82:194:16 

107:10,21 109:12 

110:13 111:2 

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Nea l R. Gross & Co. , Inc . 

202-234-443 3 
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93:15 95:13 

object 32:1 39:16 

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27:2,7 34:5 36:9 

38:1,12,2143:4,6 

44:22 64:9 66:15 

68:18 98:13 99:7 

100:19 105:20 

108:5 

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observations 82:19 

obviously 44:15 

56:15 59:4 60:3 

69:4 71:12 87:4 

97:11 100:2 

102:20 112:18 

occasions 76:5 

occur 40:6 

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45:18 48:20 

offer 105:11 106:3 

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offers 94:15 

office 1:2 2:10 4:9 

12:18,19,21 56:13 

57:13 

officer 49:6 

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offices 55:19 

official 26:11 

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17:7 20:20 23:18 

37:22 39:19,20 

52:11,18 65:6,11 

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11:2 14:20 15:16 

15:21 16:2,5,9,19 

17:2,7,10,14 

19:15,2120:4,9 

20:12 21:1,17 

23:127:2 28:10 

29:4,16 30:3,12 

31:17 32:15,20 

33:1,5,9 34:2,5,12 

36:9,17,22 37:18 

38:16,20 39:16 

43:4,10 44:22 

46:3 48:14 50:12 

50:13,14,18 51:19 

51:22 52:2,15,18 

52:22 53:4,8 54:8 

54:10,1162:16 

64:7 65:11 66:6 

66:16 68:14,22 

70:16 80:9,15 

81:12 86:7,12 

91:1192:9,13,17 

93:1194:9,14 

95:1,3,9,14,15,22 

96:1,1197:10 

98:16 99:4,9,15 

99:21 101:2 

104:22 105:5,9,13 

105:17,21 106:4,7 

106:11 107:20 

108:5 110:10 

111:14 112:1,3,6 

113:6,15 115:10 

115:15 116:6 

117:12,13 

Tiernan'sl5:9 

49:11 

time 14:18 18:12 

23:125:10 27:1,4 

27:12 28:2 36:8 

66-l'> 70-7 71-'5 \J\J i X ^ 1 \J oZ^ 1 X f J 

71:16 83:22 86:18 

91:7 92:5 94:17 

96:14,19 101:11 

103:1 108:4,22 

115:6 116:18 

times 97:22,22 

110:5 

tip 17:3 

tired 80:11 

today's 103:4 

told 20:7 46:7 

50:22 

Tom 4:16 

top31:ll 37:13 

85-8 

totally 31:22 72:9 

74:9 

train 7:20 33:14,15 

trained 73:8 

training 8:2,3 

13:10 59:7 61:17 

62:6,1163:5 

82:19 85:11 

Trans8:13 15:10 

15:21 16:1,2,3,20 

90:14 

transcript 20:13 

21:15 

transport 13:21 

TRANSPORTA.., 

1:1 

True 47:22 

try 40:1 103:11,11 

trying30:8 55:7 

98:19 102:21 

Tuesday 1:15 

30:21 45:9 

turbines 102:18 

turn 58:16 114:3 

turned 7:1 90:19 

turning 40:22 

two6:13 7:20 9:16 

9:19,20 10:6,8 

15:8,13,14,15 

20:2121:1 32:1 

32:13 39:3 61:2 

62-21 78-15 85-8 \J^^£ m X 1 KJ • X ^ U^< 0 

86:7 97:22 100:5 

101:21 102:15 

108:17 110:11 

114:4 116:17,19 

two-page 38:8 

two-sided 108:18 

type 14:5 15:1 67:3 

84:1 

typed 14:2 

typically 64:17 

75:20 76:1 82:20 

85:2,9,18 

T-I-E-R-N-A-N 

96:1 

U 

ugly 58:8 

Uh-huh 63:19 75:7 

107:12 108:12 

109:4 110:14 

ultimate 75:9 

understand 27:13 

42:20 47:1149:3 

50:12 51:15 59:14 

71:11,12 87:22 

93:19 

understandable 

63:17 

understanding 

48:1 

understood 48:13 

unfortunately 

116:2 

UNIDENTIFIED 

16:7 

unique 80:2 

uniquely 77:3 

unrelated 31:22 

unusual 85:22 86:3 

urgency 63:14 

use 11:13 48:11 

49:21 64:4 97:18 

115:19 

usually 11:11 80:13 

utilized 28:15 

U.S6:15 

V 

vague 10:4,5 

variation 14:9 

variety 17:20 26:8 

various 13:8,12 

40:19 42:8 68:10 

vehicle 83:12 

Venturing 95:3 

versus 4:4 

view 116:19 

violation 7:5 10:10 

27:4,12 28:4 

32:17 33:1843:19 

71:6,8 81:3,9 

89:16 94:18,18 

101:15,18,20 

102:4,6 104:15 

violations 40:20 

voir 3:8,9 43:10,13 

97:7,9 100:16 

W 

• , ^ ^ ^^ /-\ ^x / ^ 4 ^ 

wait 70:8 98:15 

waiting 4:19 

want 4:18 6:5 

10:12 32:20 33:1 

50:11 72:15 94:8 

98:15 105:10 

109:19 114:4,5,9 

l i e 1 ^ 1 ^ 11 ^ ^7 115:12,13 116:7 

wanted 21:3 92:1 

99:3 

wants 115:21 

Ward 23:2 

Wasbmgton 107:3 

wasn't 39:5 49:6 

67:15 98:19 

water 83:11 

way 8:5 11:4 33:4 

42:5,6 104:7 

Wayne 3:16 34:20 

wear 6:11 

Web 26:18 

weeks 76:7 

weight 38:19 75:9 

98:12 99:8 

went 26:15 99:1,8 

101:12,19 102:9 

weren't 79:18 

98:19 112:20 

West 1:10 2:11 

4:10 

we'll 33:5,6,21,21 

34:3 55:2 80:16 

we're8:l 19:12 

41:10 42:6 58:7 

67:18 70:2 73:12 

100:12 

we've 18:4 20:21 

72:12 73:4 81:22 

91:14,22 93:22 

whatsoever 67:8 

window 64*1 

TTAAA^AwTT \J ^ % X 

wing 14:12 17:3 

winter 6:17 63:21 

83:4 

withdraw 94:7 

witness3:5 11:18 

73:8 80:20 91:14 

95:8,16 111:13 

wonder 19:12 

wondering 99:16 

word 48:2 60:10 

88:16 

words 9:9 33:17 

49:5 50:22 53:4 

60:15,20 72:4,16 

73:17 74:17 78:14 

96:7 101:15 

work 16:8 103:9 

104:2,3 117:12 

working 13:7 

works 116:10 

worry 20:20 

wouldn't 8:5 44:18 

46:5 47:20 59:21 

60:2,7,14,18,19 

Nea l R, Gross & Co , 

202-234-443 3 

Inc , 
Pag e 13 0 

r 

f^ ^ 

72:14 89:10 

Wow 11:7 

write 19:22 114:22 

writing 25:22 

59:10 61:19 73:5 

written 62:20 

84:22 

X 

X3:l 

yeah 16:9,19 17:7,9 

23.-20 27:16 30:7 

38:20 52:16 53:21 

62:16 65:1,8 71:3 

76:12 78:22 79:11 

79:20 80:6,12 

83:16 87:1 88:17 

88:19 91:16 92:13 

95:9 99:4 109:1 

111:14 117:9 

year 6:16 45:18 

48:20 70:4 112:21 

years 13:2 14:15 

17:1944:1148:17 

100:5 

young 6:22 

$ 

$20,000112:15 

$30044:9 

$35,000112:12 

$50044:8 

0 

08 75:14 

1 

130:4,4 31:7,7,18 

52:12 53:11 54:3 

62:1 64:8,10,12 

64:13 71:20,21 

105:2,2 

1036:12 38:3 

10th 115:4 

10/15/2010 100:2 

10:30 80:13 

1013:25 

105 100:9 

1063:8 

108 3:20 

113:6 38:7,14 

11:4031:11 

1123:8 

1245:1,3,4 94:3,4,5 

12th 7:21 25:19 

45:18 48:20 62:18 

12/3/2009 38:9 

1206:15 100:10 

121 24:20 

13th 29:5 39:19 

135 7:12 8:1,22,22 

66:3 101:10 

135.63 55:6 77:18 

82:2,3 87:18 89:1 

142:114:10 19:4 

14th 30:21 116:5 

117:6 

15 76:3 77:8 

15th 29:6 31:7,12 

16th 107:11 

191:15 3:12 5:12 

37:11,2149:5 

19th 62:7 

19/15/2010100:1 

1950s 14:21 

1982106:18 

2 29:20,21 30:4,10 

30:1931:1841:5 

41:11,12 52:12 

53:11,12 54:3 

62:13,14,15,17 

64:8,11,12,13 

71:20,21,21,21 

105:2 

2nd29:17 84:5 

2/22/09 97:4,13 

20 76:3 

2007 6:22 14:6 

18:15 19:4 96:19 

2008 6:21 18:11 

100:4,9 108:22 

109:6,15,20 

112:12 113:3 

2009 3:23 7:3,18 

14:7 25:10 28:11 

29:5,6 31:12 

36:16,20 62:1,18 

67:1,7 68:17 

71:17 83:1 84:12 

98:3,8 99:22 

100:3,4,10 107:11 

112:8,14 

20101:15 25:19 

102:17 

201003114:6 

2167:1,6 68:17 

69:1 

21530 3:19 40:14 

22 17:19 

22nd 98:3 

222 1:10 2:114:10 

23rd 62:8 

24th 98:7,20 

115:13 

273:13,13,14,14,15 

274-1074 2:13 

277-7657 2:21 

28th 116:7 117:6 

29112:8 

314:7,8 15:5 64:15 

64:16 65:7 66:8 

67:22 84:2,15 

85:16 105:11,13 

105:14,15,20 

3rd 84:5 

30112:9 

343:15 112:10 

34,017112:10 

363:16,17,18 

383:19 

3910:4,4 75:15,15 

102:1 

4 3:3 45:13 48:19 

51:3 52:13,15 

53:18,21 54:12 

55:17 84:10,11 

87:13,14 92:1,3 

96:12 97:2,4,5,10 

98:4 99:11,12,13 

105:2 109:15,22 

111:8 

40,020112:9 

43 3:8 

453:19 

48 79:20 

523:16 54:3 71:21 

105:11 106:1 

109:16,22 110:2,6 

110:8 

503:6 14:15 102:15 

50s 14:20 

6 3:4 29:20,21 

30:10,19 31:18,18 

71:21 105:11 

106:1 

6,119112:10 

60-year-old 102:15 

64 3:23,23 

7 9:3 34:6,8 52:19 

105:11 106:1 

7th 2:11 4:10 

747-800 11:6 

8 

8 99:21 100:15,21 

100:22 101:1 

109:16 110:1,7,8 

8:05 31:7 

813:6 

82 106:21 107:4 

83 107:7 

84103 64:16 

86 3:6 

936:12 

9th 3:23 62:1 

116:13 117:8 

9:001:17 4:2 

9072:13,21 

913:7 

92 3:7 

931442:19 

95 3:8 106:22 

97 3:9 

99 3:24 

99509 2:20 

99513 2:12 4:11 

Nea l R. Gross & Co, 

202-234-443 3 

Inc , 
131 

CERTIFICATE 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

in the matter of: Bush Air Cargo 

Before Richard Goodwin, ALJ 

Date October 19, 2010 

Place; Anchorage, Alaska 

represents the full and complete proceedings of the 

aforementioned matter, as reported and reduced to 

typewriting. 

%jd H, Qk*^^ 

Neal R. Gro 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com