AN ASSESSMENT OF THE USE OF UNION DUES 

FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES:

IS THE LAW BEING FOLLOWED OR VIOLATED?

HEARING

BEFORE THE 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON WORKFORCE PROTECTIONS 

OF THE 

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND 

THE WORKFORCE 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, JUNE 20, 2002 

Serial No. 107-67 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Education 

and the Workforce

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 

WASHINGTON : 2002 

81-204 pdf 

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office 

Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; DC area (202) 512-1800 

 Fax: (202) 512-2250 Mail: Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402-0001
ii

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE 

JOHN A. BOEHNER, Ohio, Chairman 

THOMAS E. PETRI, Wisconsin GEORGE MILLER, California 

MARGE ROUKEMA, New Jersey DALE E. KILDEE, Michigan 

CASS BALLENGER, North Carolina MAJOR R. OWENS, New York 

PETER HOEKSTRA, Michigan DONALD M. PAYNE, New Jersey 

HOWARD P. “BUCK” McKEON, California PATSY MINK, Hawaii 

MICHAEL N. CASTLE, Delaware ROBERT E. ANDREWS, New Jersey 

SAM JOHNSON, Texas TIM ROEMER, Indiana 

JAMES C. GREENWOOD, Pennsylvania ROBERT C. “BOBBY” SCOTT, Virginia 

LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina LYNN C. WOOLSEY, California 

MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana LYNN N. RIVERS, Michigan 

CHARLIE W. NORWOOD, JR., Georgia RUBEN HINOJOSA, Texas 

BOB SCHAFFER, Colorado CAROLYN McCARTHY, New York 

FRED UPTON, Michigan JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts 

VAN HILLEARY, Tennessee RON KIND, Wisconsin 

VERNON J. EHLERS, Michigan LORETTA SANCHEZ, California 

THOMAS G. TANCREDO, Colorado HAROLD E. FORD, JR., Tennessee 

JIM DeMINT, South Carolina DENNIS KUCINICH, Ohio 

JOHNNY ISAKSON, Georgia DAVID WU, Oregon 

BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia RUSH D. HOLT, New Jersey 

JUDY BIGGERT, Illinois HILDA L. SOLIS, California 

TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania SUSAN DAVIS, California 

PATRICK J. TIBERI, Ohio BETTY McCOLLUM, Minnesota 

 RIC KELLER, Florida 

 TOM OSBORNE, Nebraska 

 JOHN ABNEY CULBERSON, Texas 

JOE WILSON, South Carolina 

Paula Nowakowski, Chief of Staff 

 John Lawrence, Minority Staff Director

SUBCOMMITTEE ON WORKFORCE PROTECTIONS 

CHARLIE NORWOOD, Georgia, Chairman

JUDY BIGGERT, Illinois, Vice Chairman MAJOR R. OWENS, New York

CASS BALLENGER, North Carolina DENNIS KUCINICH, Ohio 

LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina PATSY T. MINK, Hawaii 

JOHNNY ISAKSON, Georgia LYNN C. WOOLSEY, California 

BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia LORETTA SANCHEZ, California 

RIC KELLER, Florida HILDA L. SOLIS, California 

JOHN ABNEY CULBERSON, Texas 
iii

Table of Contents 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN CHARLIE NORWOOD, SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

WORKFORCE PROTECTIONS, COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE

........................................................................................................................................................ 2

OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER MAJOR OWENS, SUBCOMMITEE ON 

WORKFORCE PROTECTIONS, COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE

........................................................................................................................................................ 4

STATEMENT OF KATHLEEN KLAMUT, MOGADORE, OH ................................................. 7

STATEMENT OF DENNIS ROBEY, DAYTON, OH.................................................................. 9

STATEMENT OF FRANCIS MARTINEZ, MEMBER, REPRESENTING THE SERVICE 

EMPLOYEES INTERNATIONAL UNION (SEIU) LOCAL 32BJ, NEW YORK, NY ............ 11

STATEMENT OF DOMINICK BENTIVEGNA, ELECTED ASSISTANT SECRETARY, 

SERVICE EMPLOYEES INTERNATIONAL UNION, LOCAL 32BJ, ACCOMPANIED BY 

PAUL PAMIAS, SHOP STEWARD, LOCAL 32BJ NEW YORK, NY..................................... 13

STATEMENT OF BOB WILLIAMS, PRESIDENT, EVERGREEN FREEDOM 

FOUNDATION, OLYMPIA, WA ............................................................................................... 15

STATEMENT OF ROBERT H. CHANIN, GENERAL COUNSEL, NATIONAL EDUCATION 

ASSOCIATION, WASHINGTON, D.C. ..................................................................................... 17

STATEMENT OF MARK R. LEVIN, PRESIDENT, LANDMARK LEGAL FOUNDATION, 

HERNDON, VA ........................................................................................................................... 20

APPENDIX A - WRITTEN OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN CHARLIE 

NORWOOD, SUBCOMMITTEE ON WORKFORCE PROTECTIONS, COMMITTEE ON 

EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE................................................................................... 57

APPENDIX B - WRITTEN STATEMENT OF KATHLEEN KLAMUT, MOGADORE, OH . 61

APPENDIX C - WRITTEN STATEMENT OF DENNIS ROBEY, DAYTON, OH.................. 65

APPENDIX D - WRITTEN STATEMENT OF FRANCIS MARTINEZ, REPRESENTING THE 

SERVICE EMPLOYEES INTERNATIONAL UNION (SEIU) LOCAL 32BJ, NEW YORK, 

NY................................................................................................................................................. 71
iv

APPENDIX E - WRITTEN STATEMENT OF DOMINICK BENTIVEGNA, ELECTED 

ASSISTANT SECRETARY, SERVICE EMPLOYEES INTERNATIONAL UNION, LOCAL 

32BJ, ACCOMPANIED BY PAUL PAMIAS, SHOP STEWARD, LOCAL 32BJ NEW YORK, 

NY................................................................................................................................................. 77

APPENDIX F - WRITTEN STATEMENT OF BOB WILLIAMS, PRESIDENT, EVERGREEN 

FREEDOM FOUNDATION, OLYMPIA, WA ........................................................................... 81

APPENDIX G - WRITTEN STATEMENT OF ROBERT H. CHANIN, GENERAL COUNSEL, 

NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION, WASHINGTON, D.C. ....................................... 87

APPENDIX H - WRITTEN STATEMENT OF MARK R. LEVIN, PRESIDENT, LANDMARK 

LEGAL FOUNDATION, HERNDON, VA................................................................................. 93

APPENDIX I – SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD, STATEMENT OF CONGRESSWOMAN 

HILDA SOLIS, SUBCOMMITTEE ON WORKFORCE PROTECTIONS, COMMITTEE ON 

EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE................................................................................. 101

APPENDIX J – SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD, LETTER FROM LARRY ENGELSTEIN, 

GENERAL COUNSEL, SERVICE EMPLOYEES INTERNATIONAL UNION, LOCAL 32BJ, 

NEW YORK, NY TO CHAIRMAN CHARLIE NORWOOD, SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

WORKFORCE PROTECTIONS, COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE, 

JUNE 18, 2002............................................................................................................................ 105

APPENDIX K – SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD, MEMORANDUM FROM KEVIN 

DOYLE, RE: LABOR DAY PARADE AND PRIMARY ELECTION, AUGUST 20, 2001... 109

APPENDIX L – SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD, MEMORANDUM FROM LISA 

WATSON, RE: MARK GREEN LEAFLETTING! LAST ROUND!!!, OCTOBER 23, 2001. 113

APPENDIX M – SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD, INTER-OFFICE CORRESPONDENCE 

FROM BRIAN LAMBERT, RE: PRIMARY RUN-OFF DAY, OCTOBER 16, 2001............. 117

Table of Indexes.......................................................................................................................... 120 
1

HEARING ON AN ASSESSMENT OF THE USE OF 

UNION DUES FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES: 

 IS THE LAW BEING FOLLOWED OR VIOLATED? 

____________________

Thursday, June 20, 2002 

Subcommittee on Workforce Protections 

Committee on Education and the Workforce 

 U.S. House of Representatives 

Washington, D.C. 

 The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:25 a.m., in Room 2175, Rayburn House 

Office Building, Hon. Charlie Norwood, Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding. 

 Present: Representatives Norwood, Biggert, Goodlatte, Culbertson, Owens, Kucinich, 

Mink, Woolsey, Sanchez, and Solis. 

 Staff present: Stephen Settle, Professional Staff Member; Travis McCoy, Legislative 

Assistant; Dave Thomas, Legislative Assistant; Ed Gilroy, Director of Workforce Policy; Dave 

Schnittger, Communications Director; Kevin Smith, Senior Communications Counselor; Heather 

Valentine, Press Secretary; Patrick Lyden, Professional Staff Member; and, Deborah L. Samantar, 

Committee Clerk/Intern Coordinator. 
2

Peter Rutledge, Minority Senior Legislative Associate/Labor; Ann Owens, Minority Clerk; and 

Dan Rawlins, Minority Staff Assistant/Labor. 

Chairman Norwood. A quorum being present, the Subcommittee on Workforce Protections will 

come to order. Good morning to one and all. Thank you for being here. 

 In general, the Subcommittee on Workforce Protections has oversight jurisdiction for 

compulsory union dues. We are assembled today under that oversight authority. 

 So that we can get to our witnesses, we have agreed to limit oral opening statements to the 

Chairman and Ranking Minority Member of the Subcommittee. With that, I ask unanimous consent 

that the record remain open 14 days to allow Members to insert extraneous materials into the 

official hearing record. Without objection, so ordered. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN CHARLIE NORWOOD, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON WORKFORCE PROTECTIONS, COMMITTEE ON 

EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE

 Today's hearing, which is titled, “An Assessment of the Use of Union Dues for Political 

Purposes: Is the Law Being Followed or Violated?” is what our hearing is about and that is the 

subject to which I hope we will all confine ourselves. 

 The hearing continues the efforts of the Subcommittee on Workforce Protections to 

determine how unions are spending the dues that workers are compelled to pay them under union 

security agreements. Today's hearing will focus on the use of union dues for political purposes, 

and concentrate on the question of whether the law is being followed or violated. 

 Now to my mind this is a serious issue. Under the First Amendment of the Constitution of 

the United States, citizens of this country cannot be forced to contribute to causes which violate 

their religious beliefs or which they disagree with for other reasons. I continue to be frustrated in 

these hearings by the failure of unions to honor these basic American principles. Today we will 

hear from two more hardworking Americans who have not had their rights respected under the law. 

 The use of union dues for political purposes is also an important issue because it affects the 

integrity of our electoral process. Campaign financing has been a major issue in this Congress. 

We have passed the McCain-Feingold bill. But campaign finance laws are useless if they are not 

enforced. We have a myriad of laws that restrict what unions can do politically with dues money. 

 Today we will hear from an active union member about activities he has seen that indicate 

that his Local is not following these legal restrictions and that unions have been making illegal 

contributions to political campaigns. We will also hear from two witnesses who will detail why 

they believe the nation's largest union, the National Education Association, has not complied with 

the laws that govern it. We will also hear from the general counsel of the National Education 

Association, whom I assume will tell us that the NEA is in compliance with the law, thus the 
3

purpose of this hearing. 

 The Subcommittee is composed of diverse individuals who hold very different views on the 

issues that come before the Subcommittee. Despite our differences, we do have one thing in 

common. That is our oath of office to uphold the Constitution and the laws of the land. Now, we 

may honestly disagree on what our laws should be, but I trust and believe that we all believe our 

laws should be enforced. 

 What frustrates me most about the issue before us is the lack of law enforcement in this 

area. It seems to me that in Washington we often forget about the ordinary worker and his or her 

individual rights. This is especially true when it comes to their rights with regard to unions. In 

1959, the Congress passed the Landrum-Griffin Act. During the 40 years since its passage, 

administrations of both parties have basically failed to enforce this Act. 

 It seems that administration after administration has acted as if Congress had its fingers 

crossed when it passed the Landrum-Griffin Act, and that Congress did not really mean it when it 

passed laws making unions legally accountable to their members; they were just kidding. 

 This lax, or non-existent enforcement of the laws governing unions has created an 

atmosphere similar to what existed during prohibition. During that infamous era, speakeasies 

operated openly and were run by organized crime, which became a powerful force in our society 

because of the government's refusal to enforce the law. 

 Today, according to Steve Greenhouse, the labor reporter for the New York Times, unions 

have been hit by a “wave of corruption.” We all know that the largest union in the AFL-CIO, the 

Teamsters Union, was subjected to a money-laundering scheme that involved the AFL-CIO and its 

secretary-treasurer, Richard Trumka. Recently, we have found out that members of the Executive 

Council of the AFL-CIO, who also served as directors of Ullico, enriched themselves to the tune of 

over $6 million through insider stock profits at the expense of union members and pensioners. 

 Ours is a country of laws, and not one of privileged special interests for people that are 

above the law. I will continue to hold these hearings until the Federal Government starts enforcing 

the laws and the unions start obeying them as a matter of course. 

 With that said, I'd like to turn to my distinguished colleague from New York, Mr. Owens, 

for his opening statement. 

WRITTEN OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN CHARLIE NORWOOD, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON WORKFORCE PROTECTIONS, COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND 

THE WORKFORCE – SEE APPENDIX A 
4

OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER MAJOR OWENS, 

SUBCOMMITEE ON WORKFORCE PROTECTIONS, COMMITTEE ON 

EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have only a few points I want to make about today's hearing. 

 First, more than half of today's witnesses are here to talk about what kinds of conditions 

should be placed on the use of dues by unions representing state and local employees. 

 The Federal Government does nothing to protect the rights of state and local workers to 

form and join unions, or to engage in collective bargaining. To the extent that state and local 

workers have such rights, it is because they have been established and protected by state 

legislatures. Yet, today we are going to hear how it is vital for the Federal Government to step in to 

regulate how these organizations function. However, if we are talking about federally protecting 

how state and local workers' union dues are used, we should also be talking about federally 

protecting the right of those workers to form and join unions in the first instance. 

 Second, as a citizen of New York City, I want to take this opportunity to express my 

personal respect and appreciation for the remarkable efforts that SEIU Local 32BJ has undertaken 

in the aftermath of the tragedy of September 11th. Twenty-four members of Local 32BJ perished 

in the attack on the World Trade Center, and more than 1,000 members lost their jobs because the 

buildings they worked in were damaged or destroyed. However, because of the efforts of the 

union, in partnership with employers, the hardships resulting from the attack have been shared and 

the damage that individual families would have otherwise faced has been significantly mitigated. It 

is a very impressive accomplishment, one that would not have been possible but for the efforts of 

the union. 

 By contrast with the efforts of Local 32BJ, even though normal unemployment benefits 

only last six months, we must remember that the Congress failed to act to extend unemployment 

benefits until the recession was more than nine months old. The Congress has done nothing to 

preserve health benefits, or to provide for early retirement, or to create new jobs for the workers 

impacted by September 11th. We've spent billions of dollars bailing out industries like the airline 

industry, but we've spent very little, nothing, on health care benefits for workers. 

 Finally, let me note that this is the fourth time, the fourth time that this Subcommittee has 

held a hearing on a subject for which it has really no legislative jurisdiction. 

 The purpose of this hearing is to attempt to embarrass the union movement. The purpose of 

this hearing has nothing to do with the extent to which unions are complying with the law; rather, 

the intent is to try to make it look improper for unions to be politically active. 

 I could ask for equal time to talk about corporations, and the fact that right now all the 

newspapers have articles about how we're being inundated on Capitol Hill by corporations, 

especially the pharmaceutical industry and the financial industry, attempting to prevent us from 

making laws to hold in check the kinds of things that happened at Enron. 
5

 Why aren't we trying to protect the ordinary people who hold shares, or shareholders of 

corporations? Why are we not interested in the fact that large numbers of them have already lost 

large amounts of money and will continue to lose large amounts of money because of the behavior, 

the political behavior, of the corporate world. 

 However, a union that is not involved in politics cannot represent its members effectively. 

Local 32BJ is a good example. Local 32BJ workers have a strong interest in living wage 

legislation, in having a right of first hire when building maintenance contracts change hands, and in 

the amount of paperwork requirements that unions must meet. Since their terms and conditions of 

employment are politically determined, teachers also necessarily should have an even stronger 

interest in politics. The contention that it is somehow criminal or wrong for unions to be politically 

active is ludicrous. 

 The facts of this hearing prove the need for union political involvement. For example, we 

have not raised the minimum wage in this country since 1996. A minimum wage worker, who 

works 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, earns only $10,700 a year. A full-time minimum wage 

worker earns $3,400 below the poverty line for a family of three, and does not even earn enough to 

maintain a two-person family above the poverty threshold. The current minimum wage does not 

provide a worker enough income to obtain affordable housing anywhere in the country. Yet, while 

this Subcommittee has actual legislative jurisdiction for the minimum wage, we have yet to hold a 

single hearing in this Congress on that issue. 

 If unions were more politically involved, this Subcommittee might be addressing real issues 

to improve the quality of life for workers. We look forward to more involvement, to guarantee 

justice for the workers of America. 

Chairman Norwood. Thank you very much, Mr. Owens. I guess it should be incumbent upon me 

as Chairman of this Subcommittee to tell you what this hearing's purpose really is, since it was our 

hearing and we thought it up and we wanted to have it. It is about protecting workers' rights. It is 

about workers, whether they're unionized or not. It is about getting people to follow the law. I don't 

think that's a waste of time for any Committee of Congress performing its jurisdictional obligation 

to try to get people to enforce the law. 

 As I said in my opening statement, this hearing today focuses on two case studies. Now, 

you don't have to believe anybody if you don't want to. We have to come to some conclusions, and 

we're hearing from real people. They're Americans. They know what is actually happening to 

them. 

 Accordingly, our panelists are individuals with personal experience relevant to the analysis 

that we have before us today according to our Constitutional obligation to protect workers' rights. 

The witnesses are individuals who have devoted a significant amount of time to research the 

subject matter, which they're going to discuss. Now, I'm not telling you to believe them, but I'm 

telling you they need to be heard by Members of Congress so we can figure out what's going on. 

 We are indeed fortunate to have with us individuals with this type of understanding, and I 

welcome each and every one of you, and express my gratitude for your taking time to be here. I 
6

will introduce our witnesses this morning in order of their delivery of testimony. 

 First, we have Ms. Kathleen Klamut from Mogadore, Ohio. Ms. Klamut has a master’s 

degree and education specialist degree in education and school psychology from Kent State 

University, and is employed as a part-time, school psychologist in the Ravenna City Schools. 

 You are an American citizen, aren't you? 

Ms. Klamut. Yes. 

Chairman Norwood. Good. We welcome you, and you do have rights in America. 

Our second witness is Mr. Dennis Robey of Dayton, Ohio. Mr. Robey is a high school 

teacher. And you're an American citizen? 

Mr. Robey. Yes. 

Chairman Norwood. Good. We're delighted you're here. 

 Mr. Robey has been educating our children in Huber Heights City School District, just 

north of Dayton, Ohio, for some 24 years. Thank you for your service. 

 Our third witness is Ms. Francis Martinez, from New York, who was a maintenance worker 

at the World Trade Center and is here today representing the Service Employees International 

Union, Local 32BJ. I think all of us would congratulate your Local for the work that you've done 

and the great things you've done coming together and taking care of one another. That's admirable 

and appreciated, I think, by us all. 

 Our fourth witness is Mr. Dominick Bentivegna from Brooklyn, New York. Mr. 

Bentivegna, until very recently, was employed as a union official with the Service Employee 

International Union, Local 32BJ, and we certainly welcome you here. 

 Our fifth witness is Mr. Bob Williams, who serves as President of the Evergreen Freedom 

Foundation, located in Olympia, Washington. We understand that Mr. Williams was formally 

associated with the General Accounting Office right here in Washington, D.C. We are happy to 

have you. Thank you. 

 Next we have Mr. Robert H. Chanin joining us today. Mr. Chanin is currently General 

Counsel for the National Education Association (NEA). We thank you for your time. 

 Finally, Mark Levin, who currently serves as the President of Landmark Legal Foundation 

located right here in Herndon, Virginia, occupies the last seat at the table. Mr. Levin, thank you for 

being here and spending time with us. 

 Please note that I could have spent an additional amount of time talking about the 

qualifications and experience of these witnesses. What I have heard about each of you leads me to 
7

believe that this is the right group of people to bring together to conduct the type of oversight 

hearing that we're having today. 

 With that, I would like to gently remind each of our panelists that they have been invited to 

speak for approximately five minutes. At the center of the table, you will see a light system that 

will assist in timing this presentation. When the yellow light comes on, that means you have one 

minute remaining, and when the red light comes on, that means your time has expired, and we ask 

that you conclude in timely manner. It's very hard for me to cut you off because of the efforts that 

you've made to come and share your testimony with us today. Lastly, each of the witnesses should 

be aware that we ask each panel member to make their presentation in the order of my introduction, 

and we will withhold all questions until each of the panelists have had time to make their statement. 

Obviously, your written statement is longer, which is available to all Members of the 

Subcommittee. 

 With that I'd like to start with Ms. Klamut. 

STATEMENT OF KATHLEEN KLAMUT, MOGADORE, OH 

Good morning, Chairman Norwood and Members of the Committee. 

 I'm a school psychologist employed by the Ravenna City Schools in Ohio. Because I work 

in an agency shop state, I can be forced to subsidize the union and all of its affiliates through a 

forced unionism provision in the collective bargaining agreement between the school and the 

union. Ohio school districts are represented in collective bargaining by local union affiliates of the 

Ohio Education Association, the OEA, which is a state affiliate of the National Education 

Association, the NEA. 

 The NEA's Resolution I-12 supports family planning, including the right to reproductive 

freedom, which are code words for abortion on demand. My faith as a Christian will not permit me 

to support an organization that promotes abortion. I therefore cannot support the union without 

violating my Christian beliefs. The union promotes other objectionable causes, as well, but their 

position on abortion is the most abhorrent to my faith and me. 

 In 1997, union officials with the OEA refused my request for religions accommodation.

The union's proposed accommodation was to send my money to a union-controlled scholarship 

fund, but it was not a recognized charity. Otherwise, the union informed me that it would refuse to 

honor my status as a religious objector. 

 My faith prevents me from financially supporting the union and its affiliates. It does not 

matter which pocket this money goes into for the union, they all would support the union, and it, 

again, violates my Christian beliefs. 

 In my first employment situation, I was able to pay the equivalent of the union dues to the 

American Cancer Society, but I needed the assistance of the National Right to Work Legal 
8

Foundation and an attorney to get a settlement through the EEOC. 

 The problem arose again when I changed employment in the fall of 2001 and began 

working for the Ravenna City School District. I was once again required to join the union or pay 

fees to another NEA affiliate, and the local was the Ravenna Education Association, or the REA. 

 In September of 2001, I notified the REA of my religious beliefs and the prior EEOC 

agreement. On February 18, 2002, I spoke with the president of the local union, Jacquelyne 

O'Connor, and again requested a religious accommodation. On February 26, 2002, I received a 

letter from the OEA representative, Beth Chandler-Marks, and she informed me that the OEA, the 

state affiliate, not the local affiliate, would be handling my request. Ms. Chandler-Marks wrote to 

me and informed me that the previously negotiated settlement with EEOC was not legally binding 

and would not be honored. 

 I followed up with letters to Ms. O'Connor, Ms. Chandler-Marks, and Christopher Lopez, 

who is the attorney for the OEA on March 20, 2002, in a further attempt to obtain a religious 

accommodation. One week later, the OEA representative, Ms. Chandler-Marks, sent a letter to my 

employer threatening legal action if my employer did not confiscate the union dues from my 

paycheck, in violation of my religious beliefs. 

 In a last attempt to obtain a religious accommodation, I again wrote a letter to the local 

president, Ms. O'Connor. I again explained my sincere Christian beliefs, wrote specific scriptures 

for my belief system, and asked for another accommodation. I sent copies to OEA personnel, Ms. 

Chandler-Marks, and Mr. Lopez. On May 7, 2002, Ms. O'Connor responded by letter, stating she 

could not in any way help me that it was between OEA, the state affiliate, and myself. 

 My employer reported to me via e-mail that the OEA representative, Ms. Chandler-Marks, 

was going to take legal action against me because of my request for religious accommodation. Her 

exact quote was they were going to come after me. I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds 

pretty menacing, when you're part-time personnel. Thereafter, I was sent information by the Ohio 

Education Association, which stated I had no choice except to join the union and surrender union 

dues.

 I contacted the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation. An attorney with the 

National Right to Work Legal Foundation informed me that under Title 7 of the Civil Rights Act of 

1964, I was allowed to observe my long-held religious beliefs and pay the equivalent of the union 

dues to a charity. The attorney helped me to file charges with EEOC, which are now pending. I 

now have another set of charges with the EEOC filed, and they're currently pending. 

 I feel that the union's plan was simply to wear me down. The union threatened to take my 

job away or confiscate the money from my paycheck. I needed to retain and work with an attorney 

to have what I believe is a simple religious accommodation request adhered to. I believe I should 

be allowed to do my job without this constant hassle. I'm sure many people feel as I do, but they 

simply either pay or quit. 
9

 I am told that the federal anti-discrimination law protects me from that forced subsidy of the 

union where forced subsidy violates my Christian beliefs, but transforming this legal right to a 

genuine discrimination-free work situation has been a real problem for me. I do not expect this to 

change as long as the union can choose whether it will obey the law and accede to the requirements 

of the law only if forced to after litigation or force me to risk my job by asserting my right to 

practice my true Christian beliefs. 

 It would be better if people simply did not have to pay the union if he or she did not choose 

to be represented by it. 

 Thank you very much. 

WRITTEN STATEMENT OF KATHLEEN KLAMUT, MOGADORE, OH – SEE 

APPENDIX B 

Chairman Norwood. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Robey, you're next. 

STATEMENT OF DENNIS ROBEY, DAYTON, OH 

Thank you, Chairman Norwood and Members of the Committee. 

 As Chairman Norwood said, I've been a teacher for 24 years in the Huber Heights City 

School District near Dayton, Ohio. For many years, I was a member of the local teachers' union as 

well as the Ohio Education Association and the NEA. During the 1993-1994 school year, I 

determined that I needed to look further into what the union stood for. That led me to read the 

NEA's resolutions published in the NEA Today, an NEA publication. 

 As I read each resolution, I found myself in disagreement, for religious reasons, with stands 

taken by the union. First, the 2000 NEA resolutions included seven different resolutions that in 

some way supported the abortion industry. The word “abortion” is never used, but terms such as 

“the right to reproductive freedom,” “birth control and family planning,” and “comprehensive 

school-based clinics” are used. 

 Second, the 2000 NEA resolutions included 14 different resolutions that supported the 

granting of special status to homosexuals, teaching about diversity of sexual orientation, or 

additional rights to domestic partners. 

 Third, the 2000 NEA resolutions included at least eight resolutions that in some way erode 

the rights of parents to instruct their children as they see fit. For example, one resolution provides 

for completely confidential counseling regarding abortion and sexuality, designed specifically to 
10

shut parents out of the loop on these critical family issues. 

 Oddly, another NEA resolution calls for the immediate notification of parents of students 

that are suspected of drug or alcohol abuse, which makes good sense, but cannot be squared with 

the NEA's policy of secrecy when it comes to other important family issues. 

 The Bible clearly speaks to all three of these issues. In each case, the union is in opposition 

to God's word. I realized I could no longer support the union without violating my conscience. 

There was only one problem. The union negotiated a forced unionism in the labor agreement with 

the local school district. This meant that every teacher in the district had to either join the union or 

pay compulsory fees to the union. Everyone had to pay the fee the union calculated. 

 In 1994, I sent a letter requesting a religious accommodation, which I learned I was entitled 

to under federal law. From that day forward, I have encountered nothing but foot-dragging, 

procedural obstacles, delays, refusals to return my telephone calls, and stubborn resistance from the 

union. I have detailed this in my written testimony. My time is limited, so I cannot detail the 

numerous stall tactics that I am told are common to those who have a religious objection to the 

union.

 Every year, I've had to request the religious accommodation and then wait. The whole time 

that I've waited, the union has had the use of my money to support causes that are contrary to my 

religion. Each year, the delay is greater and the hoops I've had to jump through are more 

complicated. For the past several years, each year I have had to provide detailed and 

comprehensive information and find documentary evidence to justify my faith. I've had to complete 

a form. Even though it takes over a year for the union to respond to my request for religious 

accommodation, I've had to complete the form within 17 days or forfeit my right to work with free 

conscience. I must provide, among other things, specific religious beliefs, doctrines that support my 

request for an accommodation, along with documentary evidence. I had to provide what specific 

local district OEA or NEA policies, procedures, and/or resolutions from which I sought 

accommodation, along with documentary evidence. I had to provide a description of how the 

specified educational association's policies, et cetera, conflict with my specific religious beliefs. 

And, I had to have a signature from my pastor or other religious official on this form. 

 All these years, I have faithfully objected, jumped through all the union's hoops, and paid 

the money that ultimately went to charity. I have also pursued the legal channels to try to protect 

my rights. It has not been easy, and it has been a distraction from my work, which is to teach 

students, and my family life, as well. Public school teachers should not be forced to support unions 

where doing so violates their conscience. 

 Thank you for allowing me to share this experience. 

WRITTEN STATEMENT OF DENNIS ROBEY, DAYTON, OH – SEE 

APPENDIX C 
11

Chairman Norwood. Thank you, Mr. Robey. 

Ms. Martinez. 

STATEMENT OF FRANCIS MARTINEZ, MEMBER, REPRESENTING THE 

SERVICE EMPLOYEES INTERNATIONAL UNION (SEIU) LOCAL 32BJ, 

NEW YORK, NY

Chairman Norwood and Committee Members, good morning. I would like to extend a 

special greeting to my friend from Brooklyn, a good friend of the union before and after 9/11, 

Congressman Owens. 

 My name is Francis Martinez. I am honored to be here to talk about my union, SEIU Local 

32BJ. I'm a maintenance worker from the World Trade Center. I worked there for five years. My 

union represents 70,000 residential and commercial building service workers in New York, New 

Jersey, and Connecticut. They work as office cleaners, window cleaners, superintendents, janitors, 

security guards, and handymen. We come from all over the world. We speak many languages. 

Many members are new immigrants who have come to this country in search of a better life for 

their families. 

 Like all unions, 32BJ works hard to build unity in our industry and get the best wages and 

benefits. Those contracts would not be possible without hard work at many levels, including being 

involved in state and federal politics, which is why I'm here today. Our union's political activities 

are necessary. If we are not involved in politics, how will we enjoy the American dream of 

building a better life? 

We may be invisible at work. Janitors are invisible to the building tenants. We clean their 

toilets, empty their wastebaskets, but go unnoticed. We will not be invisible in the American 

political process. We support candidates who will protect workers on the job, help protect our jobs 

and our neighborhoods. 

 My union is working to pass two major bills; the Displaced Worker Protection Act and the 

Living Wage Bill. We also support candidates who fight for better schools, more affordable 

housing, immigration reform, and other important issues for workers and their families. My union 

was active in last fall's election. We endorsed and worked for candidates. Some won, some lost. 

We encouraged our union members and their families to register and vote, and they did. 

 I'd like to show you a t-shirt that volunteers wore at that campaign, and it says, “Our City, 

Our Future.” That is the feeling of our members. We know we need to be involved in politics. I 

am very proud of our efforts, and we will achieve together. 

 On 9/11, my union lost 24 friends and union members in the attack on the World Trade 

Center. I was not at work on the 107th floor on the observation deck in the World Trade Center 
12

that day. If I had been there, I probably wouldn't be here. But I am here, sharing with you the pride 

that the union gave us with their help.

More than 1,000 members, including me, lost their jobs after 9/11. My union leadership 

helped us, and they did not wait for Congress. They immediately assisted families of the dead and 

those who lost our jobs. My union negotiated an agreement with our employers and the real estate 

industry. We got additional unemployment benefits. Our health benefits were continued. This 

meant that, between New York State unemployment and the assistance provided by my union, our 

employers, we received our take-home pay and our health benefits. This was not the case with 

most workers who lost their jobs on 9/11. 

 My union also helped us get all back to work by creating an early retirement program. This 

allowed older workers to retire and let us go to work in other buildings, sometimes for other 

employers. The goal was to get everybody back to work, and that is what the union did. 

 Most importantly, my union took every opportunity to call attention to conditions of lowpaid workers who lost their jobs because of the attack on our city. We created a temporary 

assistance center to help World Trade Center victims, and I worked side-by-side with the Red 

Cross in our union hall, helping immigrant workers, whether they were union members or not. 

 We, the janitors, window washers, private security guards, help ourselves. I ask you, 

Members of the Congress, what did Congress do to help working people like me? Did Congress 

help unemployed workers pay for their health benefits? Did Congress increase weekly 

unemployment benefits? What did you do for low-wage workers? 

 This is why we need to be together, to be heard. Individually, you can ignore us, but as a 

union, you cannot, we cannot be ignored. Together, we give small amounts of money so we can 

participate in politics through our union. I pay monthly union dues and contribute voluntarily to 

our political education fund, COPE. My International union, SEIU, represents 1.5 million workers, 

and that many working people have as much right to engage in politics as corporations and wealthy 

Americans. We don't write big individual checks, but all our money together cannot be ignored, 

and this is what this hearing is really about. For the record, my union’s involvement in local, state, 

and federal politics is democratic, and becoming more politically involved is a good thing for our 

union.

 In February of this year, I testified before a congressional delegation on the needs of 

displaced workers. The AFL-CIO and my union organized this hearing. That testimony is an 

example of how the union gets their members' message delivered to our elected leaders, just like 

today.

 Yes, my union uses dues money to run political programs. The union money spent for 

political outreach to our members was approved by the executive board and reported to the entire 

union membership in our magazine. I have given a copy to each one of you. 

 Because of my membership, I am here today representing my union. I am proud to 

participate in politics, not just as a member, but also as a citizen. As an individual and as a union 
13

member, we will continue to speak. We will be heard. 

 Thank you for your time. I am proud to be here and be with my union.

WRITTEN STATEMENT OF FRANCIS MARTINEZ, REPRESENTING THE 

SERVICE EMPLOYEES INTERNATIONAL UNION (SEIU) LOCAL 32BJ, NEW 

YORK, NY – SEE APPENDIX D 

Chairman Norwood. Thank you, Ms. Martinez, for your testimony. 

Mr. Bentivegna. 

STATEMENT OF DOMINICK BENTIVEGNA, ELECTED ASSISTANT 

SECRETARY, SERVICE EMPLOYEES INTERNATIONAL UNION, LOCAL 

32BJ, ACCOMPANIED BY PAUL PAMIAS, SHOP STEWARD, LOCAL 

32BJ NEW YORK, NY

Good morning, Congressman Norwood and Committee Members. I would like to express 

my thanks for the invitation to speak today on such an important issue. 

 My name is Dominick Bentivegna, and I am an elected Assistant Secretary and a proud 

member of Local 32BJ for 15 years. The first 12 years I was a doorman. The last three years I was 

on staff at Local 32BJ headquarters, located in New York City. I first worked as an organizer, and 

was promoted to assistant supervisor and then to supervisor, where I was responsible for 6,500 

members. Recently, I was fired from that position because of my announced candidacy for Local 

32BJ President. 

 I strongly believe in union democracy and a non-partisan, member-driven political program 

so much so that I continue to contribute to COPE, the Committee on Political Education. 

Unfortunately, in our local union, this is not the case. For example, at an executive board meeting 

in June 2001, our president, Mike Fishman, told us we were going to borrow two payments of 

$300,000 each from our general treasury, which is funded by members' dues. This money was to 

go to the COPE fund and then be distributed to the Green campaign, as well as other campaigns. 

 Some executive board members, as well as myself, questioned the legality of this 

arrangement. We were assured by Larry Engelstein, who holds the titles of General Counsel and 

Chief of Staff, that this was legal. Mike Fishman and Larry Engelstein explained we would pay 

back this loan from the general treasury with next year's incoming COPE money. I regret not 

questioning this further. I knew there was a good chance that we would not be able to collect 

$600,000 from the members as voluntary COPE contributions. 
14

 In November 2001, the Manhattan district attorney issued subpoenas demanding documents 

relating to the Mark Green and other campaigns. A letter sent to the district attorney’s office by 

Paul Pamias, a Shop Steward with Local 32BJ, who has accompanied me today, prompted this 

investigation.

 The day after the subpoenas were issued, Larry Engelstein and Mike Fishman gathered the 

staff and downplayed the significance of the event. At a subsequent officers' meeting, I asked Mike 

Fishman about the “loan.” He then amazingly explained that there never was a loan; it was not a 

“reallocation of the budget.” At the next joint executive board meeting, Neil Scotti, a rank and file 

board member, insisted that Mr. Fishman explain how our political money was being spent. I found 

his answer vague, but here it is: “Money comes from the members into the COPE fund as hard 

money. We then send it to our international union in Washington, where they take their cut. It is 

then sent back down to our treasury to be used as soft money.” Mike Fishman and Larry Engelstein 

may say this is legal, but the fact that the membership knows nothing of this and did not vote on it 

is unacceptable. 

 Maybe the most offensive aspect of all this was the abuse of the union staff from many 

departments. The staff was forced to take personal days and vacation days to campaign for Mark 

Green. If they had no days left, they were forced to borrow against next year's. 

 The staff, whose salaries are paid for by the members' dues, was responsible for recruiting 

rank and file members and were told they had to reach a quota. They were also responsible for 

leafleting subway stations and phone banking during hours that should have been dedicated to 

serving the members. Ironically, the staff that worked so hard on these campaigns were denied their 

right to physically vote and told to fill out absentee ballots. 

 It has become very clear to me that we have a long uphill battle to improve the democratic 

rights of the rank and file. We need a Labor-Management Reporting and Disclosure Act with teeth 

and an Office of Labor-Management Standards with greater investigative powers. 

 I close by thanking the many Local 32BJ members who continue to support me in spite of 

my termination. My loyalty has always been to the rank and file members of Local 32BJ and the 

member-driven labor movement, and I look forward to serving them again in the future. 

 Thanks. 

WRITTEN STATEMENT OF DOMINICK BENTIVEGNA, ELECTED 

ASSISTANT SECRETARY, SERVICE EMPLOYEES INTERNATIONAL 

UNION, LOCAL 32BJ, ACCOMPANIED BY PAUL PAMIAS, SHOP STEWARD, 

LOCAL 32BJ NEW YORK, NY – SEE APPENDIX E 
15

Chairman Norwood. Just so you know, I think this hearing is also about the rank and file member, 

the guy that gets up, and the woman that gets up every day and goes to work. It's about making sure 

those that control the rank and file member follow the law. That's where our interest is, and that’s 

the purpose of today's hearing. 

Mr. Williams. 

STATEMENT OF BOB WILLIAMS, PRESIDENT, EVERGREEN FREEDOM 

FOUNDATION, OLYMPIA, WA

Chairman Norwood and distinguished Members of the Committee, I am Bob Williams, the 

President of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation, a state-based research group in Washington State. 

Prior to becoming President of the foundation, I served as a Certified Public Accountant, a 

government auditor for the General Accounting Office, and spent 10 years in the state legislature. 

 Seven years ago, teachers came to our door pleading for help. They wanted the union to 

stop taking money from their paychecks without their consent to use for politics. Seven years later, 

we have more than 60,000 internal union documents. Our investigation has led to two lawsuits 

filed against the teachers' union by our Democrat state attorney general, a Superior Court ruling of 

intentional and willful violation of teachers' rights, and more than $1 million in penalties against 

the union, including the repayment to teachers of more than $0.5 million. After all of this, we say: 

What the NEA does to its members may be the last institutionalized civil rights violation remaining 

in our nation. 

 What we have uncovered substantiates the fact that the NEA and its state affiliates are the 

most powerful political force in America today. Attachments 2 and 3 of the handout I have 

provided detail the information. They have operations that most political parties would envy: voter 

identification programs, voter lists, get-out-the-vote efforts, organized right down to the school 

building level. They build strategic political plans and sit as a majority vote on decision-making 

Committees for numerous ballot measures and candidates. They bankroll levy and initiative 

campaigns. They organize to elect or to defeat candidates at nearly every level of public office. 

 I have documentary evidence to substantiate what I just said, but some of this is subject to a 

protective order. To fully grasp the depth of what is in Attachments 2 and 3, you must subpoena the 

documents and records we have. 

 Now, there would be nothing inherently wrong with what I'm saying except for one thing: 

This is paid with mandatory union dues, and sizeable deductions from teachers' paychecks. Now, 

union officials say that most of these withdrawals are made for collective bargaining and related 

purposes. This is simply not true. 

 I want to make it clear, we do not object to the NEA being involved in politics. As long as 

education policy emanates from Congress and our state houses, the union must have a voice and 

presence, but straightforward politicking should come from voluntary contributions. In Washington 
16

State 91 percent of the teachers refuse to support the union's political action Committee, so the 

union ignores the law and takes money out of general dues and uses it for politics. You might think 

there are legal protections in place to protect the workers. There are not. 

 For each of the 75,396 members of the Washington Education Association, $683 is 

deducted in local, regional, state, and national dues each year. We estimate, after going through 

60,000 union documents, that at most 20 percent is used for traditional union functions such as 

collective bargaining, maintenance of the contract, and grievances. That means one union in one 

state has $80 million an election cycle to use for other things, like politics. That is 10 times the 

combined budget of the Republican and Democrat political parties in our state, and they receive 

their donations from voluntary sources, whereas the teachers' union is using mandatory union dues. 

 Of the $683 deducted from teachers' dues, the NEA takes $126 per member per year. Yet, 

under oath at an arbitration hearing last year, the NEA representative said he could not identify a 

single direct service that teachers in Washington State receive from the union. My examination of 

the NEA books indicates that over 99 percent of what the NEA does is not direct services to 

members. In November 2000, Robert Chanin, General Counsel of the NEA, said and I quote: “So 

you ask me how I can possibly separate NEA's collective bargaining from politics? You just can't. 

It's all politics.” 

 Okay, so it's all politics. Then should teachers or any other union employee be forced to 

support the political choices and decisions made by the union? Don't teachers have a right to their 

own political voice? Not in practice, if they belong to the NEA, which brings us to the next point: 

What are the teachers' options? You just heard about the difficulties for religious objectors. The 

same thing applies to NEA members in our state. If teachers don't want to agree, their option is to 

become an agency-fee payer but lose the right to run for office, the right to vote, teacher liability 

insurance, and still pay the same amount in dues as if they were members, unless they object. Then 

you attend an arbitration hearing, which is little more than a kangaroo court; I could go on and on 

regarding that detail. 

 But the key thing is why does this occur? It occurs because union officials want political 

power, and they have nothing to lose and everything to gain. There is little chance of the union 

being caught, and there is even a smaller chance that when they are caught, they'll be prosecuted, 

and a very remote chance that if they are convicted they'll have to pay a fine. In the case of 

Washington State, where the judge said it was deliberate and he doubled the fine, the union 

officials didn't pay the fine. They merely took it out of the paychecks of the hard-working teachers 

in Washington State. Fines are just considered a cost of doing business for the arrogant union 

officials.

 It's not hard to buy political power when you have direct access to the paychecks of 2.6 

million hard-working American citizens, and have no scruples about helping yourself to their 

money with the perfect alibi: “It's for the children.” 

 The response of our teachers' union has been chilling. They've resorted to name calling, 

misrepresented teachers to colleagues, sent them threatening letters, sued them, sued us, sued the 

state attorney general three times, taken out full-page colored ads in the newspapers all over the 
17

state harassing our foundation, sent out a directive to their staff to research our staff, our families, 

and our friends. Our experience compels us to ask Congress to consider the five points we have in 

my testimony. 

 Robert Chanin, the NEA General Counsel, once said in the U.S. District Court: “It is wellrecognized that if you take away the mechanism of payroll deduction, you won't collect a penny 

from these people, and it's nothing to do with voluntary or involuntary. I think it has to do with the 

nature of the beast, and the beasts who are our teachers simply don't come up with the money, 

regardless of the purpose.” Well, he's entitled to his opinion, but as Members of Congress, we ask 

you to protect the working men and women in this country. 

 Thank you. 

WRITTEN STATEMENT OF BOB WILLIAMS, PRESIDENT, EVERGREEN 

FREEDOM FOUNDATION, OLYMPIA, WA – SEE APPENDIX F 

Chairman Norwood. Thank you, Mr. Williams. 

Mr. Chanin, it's your turn. 

STATEMENT OF ROBERT H. CHANIN, GENERAL COUNSEL, NATIONAL 

EDUCATION ASSOCIATION, WASHINGTON, D.C. 

Chairman Norwood, Members of the Subcommittee my name is Bob Chanin. I'm General 

Counsel of the National Education Association. Inasmuch as the activities of NEA and its affiliates 

appear to be the focus of today's hearing, I particularly appreciate the opportunity to appear here 

and set the record straight, and since there is so much to set straight, forgive me if I speak rather 

quickly.

 The Chairman referred to NEA in his opening comment as the largest union in the United 

States. That is true. I would add, just for the record, it also is the most open and democratically 

run union in the country, as well. 

 Let me also clarify some terminology that's been thrown around here today. The topic of 

today's hearing is, “An Assessment of the Use of Union Dues for Political Purposes,” but the 

accusations, certainly, that the Evergreen Freedom Foundation and the Right to Work Committee 

have made against NEA have nothing to do with dues. 

 Dues are the monies that are paid to us by the more than 2.5 million employees who 

voluntarily choose to join our organization. The accusations have to deal more with NEA's use of 
18

agency fees, which are paid to us by those employees who exercise their right not to join our 

organization, but pay a per capita amount to offset the benefits that they receive from union 

representation. To quote the United States Supreme Court, the purpose of the agency fee is “to 

counteract the incentive of employees that might otherwise choose to become free riders.” 

 Having pointed out the basic distinction between dues and agency fees let me emphasize 

one thing they have in common. Not a penny of our dues or our agency fees is used to make 

political contributions to candidates or to make soft money contributions to political parties. 

 We use only money from our PAC, the NEA Fund for Children in Education, and the 

money in that fund comes from our members who voluntarily choose to pay the money to the fund 

over and above whatever obligation they may have to give us as a dues payment. In my written 

testimony, I outline the comprehensive procedure that NEA has in place in order to protect the 

rights of agency fee payers. 

 I would only emphasize that when you consider the scope of the NEA's activities, the 

number of state laws we must comply with, the volume of people we deal with, it is truly amazing 

that the number of objections we have and the number of problems we encounter is so small. 

 We have at the table two disgruntled agency fee payers, and I stand them against the 

thousands and thousands and thousands of agency fee payers who are satisfied throughout this 

country with the treatment that they receive from NEA and its affiliates. 

 In the limited time that I have remaining, let me address the accusations that have been 

made against NEA by the organizations that are represented here today. Because those accusations 

are now pending in litigation, I will not attempt to make my case in this political forum. I will 

simply offer some observations to put those accusations into context. 

 Let me begin with the Landmark Legal Foundation. In June 2000, LLF filed complaints 

against NEA with the Internal Revenue Service and the Federal Election Commission. The 

substance of those widely publicized complaints were that NEA used dues and agency fees to pay 

for political activity, in violation of the Federal Election Campaign Act, and failed to accurately 

report them to the IRS. We consider them to be totally without merit. 

 We certainly do not deny that NEA uses its dues to engage in non-electoral political 

activity, but the activities that we engage in are explicitly allowed to us under the Federal Election 

Campaign Act, and we report to every agency what we are required to report; no more and no less. 

 We find the charge that was filed with the IRS to be particularly surprising, in light of the 

fact that it came upon the heels of an exhaustive IRS audit of NEA which had found no problems in 

the way in which we operate. 

 Apparently dismayed by the fact that neither the IRS nor the FEC took action against NEA, 

the Landmark Legal Foundation tried its hand in another agency this year, and filed a charge with 

the Department of Labor. The essence of that charge is that NEA failed to accurately report its 

political activities in the forms filed under the Landrum-Griffin Act. Now, there's a catch-22 to this 
19

charge, because the Landmark Legal Foundation casts itself as the protector of the rights of our 

members. They contend that we don't provide our own members with enough information about 

our expenditures; and yet the major complaint we get from our members and our affiliates is to stop 

sending them so much of this stuff. 

 It's also a catch-22 because the basis for the IRS and the FEC charges are massive 

documentation that they have received, which they contend, we don't even produce, so there's some 

disconnect in how those charges fit together. 

 Let me turn now to the Evergreen Freedom Foundation. It's filed a lawsuit against NEA in 

Washington state court alleging that we have committed what can at best be described as a 

technical violation of a unique provision in a Washington State statute by expending a de minimis 

amount of agency fees for political activity without obtaining the required authorization. We intend 

to respond in the appropriate judicial forum, and will not address the complaint here. 

 Finally, and I will wrap up with this, there are agency fee payers you have heard today who, 

with the support of the Right to Work Committee, have filed charges with the EEOC alleging that 

NEA and one of its state affiliates have failed to properly accommodate their religious beliefs. 

Once again, this is pending litigation. We reserve the specifics of our defense for the proper forum. 

 I would simply note that it is exceedingly surprising to me to find the Right to Work 

Committee publicly saying that NEA fails to accommodate the right of religious objectors, and I 

have cited in my written statement a very nice testimonial given to me and NEA by the chief 

lawyer for the Right to Work Committee who handles their agency fee religious objector cases and 

is representing both of the people you heard today, thanking me personally and thanking NEA for 

doing so much to help properly resolve religious objector cases throughout the United States. 

 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

WRITTEN STATEMENT OF ROBERT H. CHANIN, GENERAL COUNSEL, 

NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION, WASHINGTON, D.C. – SEE 

APPENDIX G 

Chairman Norwood. Thank you, Mr. Chanin. 

Mr. Levin, it's your turn. 
20

STATEMENT OF MARK R. LEVIN, PRESIDENT, LANDMARK LEGAL 

FOUNDATION, HERNDON, VA 

Mr. Chairman and Committee Members let me depart a little bit from my written statement. 

We have massive documentation that the NEA is a tax “deadbeat”. You don't have to take my word 

for it. I would ask that the exhibits that we have be entered into the record, so every Member of 

Congress who is seriously interested in this can look at it. 

 Now, we're happy that the NEA participates in politics. They're allowed to participate in 

politics. They tell their members they participate in politics, to the tune of millions and millions of 

dollars. But they don't tell the IRS and since 1994 on Line 81, which is where the unions are 

supposed to put it, they have put zero. 

 Now, if they want to use general revenue or agency fees or dues, members' confiscated 

payments, to pay for the administrative costs of their PAC, that's fine. They don't have to report 

that. To turn out their members to vote, that's fine, too. But that's not all they do. That's not all 

they do, and they know it. 

 First of all, as far as everything going through the PAC, that would be legal. That would be 

great. It's too bad it doesn't happen. Notice the date our complaint was filed; June 23, 2000. I don't 

know when their IRS audit ended. How could I possibly know? The IRS doesn't tell me. Their 

spokeswoman doesn't tell us. I don't know what years were covered. I don't know what documents 

the IRS looked at. And I bet you today that Mr. Chanin, audit or no audit, can't tell you to the 

penny how much political money they spend on election cycles. He can attack the groups here all 

he wants, but he doesn't have to answer to us. 

Now, what is a political expenditure as defined under the Internal Revenue Code? Well, 

you-all wrote it. “A political expenditure is one intended to influence the selection, nomination, 

election, or appointment of anyone to a federal, state, or local public office, or office in a political 

organization, or the election of presidential or vice presidential electors. It doesn't matter whether 

the attempt succeeds.” I'm quoting. “An expenditure includes a payment, a distribution, a loan,’’ as 

the gentleman down there testified, “advance, deposit, gift of money, or anything of value. It also 

includes a contract, promise, or agreement to make an expenditure, whether or not legally 

enforceable.” 

 All Section 501(c) organizations, unions are 501(c)(5)s, must file Form 1120 POL if their 

political expenditures and their net investment income both exceed $100 for the year. They haven't 

filed one of those forms since at least 1994, so they must not spend over $100 on political activity 

out of their general revenue to influence campaigns. That's what they're telling you 

 There have been rulings, such as Alaska Public Service Employees' Local 71 versus the 

Commissioner in the materials that I submitted for the record. They're not limited to money 

transactions. They include the cost of using in part or in whole any facilities, personnel, 

equipment, supplies, or automobiles. They must all be accounted for, direct and indirect, in kind. 

Even the time spent by an organization's employees directing volunteer campaign efforts or 
21

appearing on behalf of candidates must be accounted for by the organization. They report zero. 

 This is from their handbook. They talk about the segregated PAC versus the general 

revenue. This will be in the materials submitted to the Committee. “The Association is ultimately 

responsible for all of its programs, including political action. In the minds of office-holders, 

candidates, and the public, it is the Association they're dealing with, not a separate and isolated 

political action Committee. In addition to integrating the structure of the political action Committee 

and the Association, programs should be integrated, too.” 

 See, the point of the tax law is the PAC has to be segregated, and that's where the money is 

supposed to flow, and if you're going to spend money out of general revenues, you have to report it 

and pay income taxes on it. They don't report it, they don't pay income taxes on it, and they’re 

deadbeats.

 Now, if I am the most conscientious member of the National Education Association, and I 

want to know how much money my union has spent on political activity, I can't find out. Their IRS 

form says zero. The LM-2 forms at the Labor Department are so general as to be totally 

meaningless, and even there they are required to report the information in a particularized way so a 

union member can determine how the operations of the union are being undertaken. 

 So those forms are, in my view, in violation of the statute, and the whole purpose of the 

Landrum-Griffin Act is to democratize the union process. It was passed in the 1950s because the 

mob was controlling the unions, and as I recollect, the only Senator to vote against it, and I could 

be wrong about this, was Barry Goldwater. You know why? He said, “This is a joke. No one will 

ever enforce it.” 

 My understanding is that over the years, they've been cutting the enforcement powers of 

that office, and the budget, and now we have a form. If anybody thinks these unions are going to 

volunteer information to their membership about their political expenditures, all they need to do is 

a little bit of research. They're not going to. Certainly NEA isn't going to. 

 My time is up. I appreciate it, sir. Thank you. 

WRITTEN STATEMENT OF MARK R. LEVIN, PRESIDENT, LANDMARK 

LEGAL FOUNDATION, HERNDON, VA – SEE APPENDIX H 

Chairman Norwood. Thank you very much, Mr. Levin, and thanks to each of the witnesses for 

being here. 

 Obviously, it’s difficult for this Subcommittee, because we hear conflicting testimonies, but 

it is a constitutional obligation of this Subcommittee to try to ferret it all out and understand what's 

going on. 
22

 Pursuant to our Committee rules, I will now begin our period of questioning. We will 

proceed in five-minute rounds, rotating between the majority and minority members. I'm going to 

begin where the two of you left off. Your statements contradict each other, and we have to try to 

make some sense out of that. 

 Now, I trust both of you are testifying before this Committee telling the truth as you know 

it. I'm going to try to ask a few questions, if I can, that will highlight where you differ, and perhaps 

from that we can understand. 

Mr. Chanin, is it your testimony that all expenditures made by the NEA that are intended to 

influence elections are made from funds from your political action committee? Didn't I hear you 

say that? 

Mr. Chanin. With one minor caveat, absolutely yes. The one caveat is this. The Federal Election 

Campaign Act allows us to communicate with our own members internally about electoral politics. 

 The only thing that dues are used for is to communicate with our own members in internal 

politics, and the other thing that the Federal Election Law allows us to do, is pay the administrative 

overhead costs of our PAC. No dues are used to make a contribution to any candidate for political 

office or to any political party. 

Chairman Norwood. Now, let me make clear what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about just 

limiting myself to campaign contributions. I am including in my question expenditures for phone 

banks, leaflets, staff assigned to assist candidate campaigns. With that clarification in my question, 

is it still your testimony that NEA has not spent a penny on that type of expenditure? 

Mr. Chanin. The answer is exactly the same, with the same qualification. Only for dealing with 

our own members. 

Chairman Norwood. Ms. Martinez, do you pay your union any amount of money other than union 

dues? 

Ms. Martinez. Union dues. 

Chairman Norwood. You don't give them cash or a check for any other reason? 

Ms. Martinez. No. 

Chairman Norwood. Mr. Levin, on Page 2 of your testimony, you list half a dozen specific 

expenditures by the NEA, which cause conflict. One of you says “No, we don't,” and one of you 

says, “Yes, we do,” and you list them. 

 Can you tell me where you found the references for these expenditures? 
23

Mr. Levin. They're from NEA budgets, financial statements, strategic focus plans, handbooks and 

other NEA materials? 

Chairman Norwood. Did the NEA produce these documents or were the documents produced by 

their political action Committee? 

Mr. Levin. No, these were produced by the Association and distributed to certain members. 

Chairman Norwood. Okay. Now, Mr. Chanin, will you take a look at Page 2 of Mr. Levin's 

testimony? 

Mr. Chanin. If you'll give it to me, I will, but I think I know what's on it. 

Mr. Levin. Do you want a test, or do you want it? 

Mr. Chanin. I'll take it. If I'm wrong, I'm sure you'll point it out to me. 

Chairman Norwood. Now, is it still your contention in your testimony, that all these expenditures 

came from the NEA political action committee and not a penny came from a fund that contained 

union dues or fees? 

Mr. Chanin. No, that is not my testimony. The things that are referenced on Mr. Levin's paper did 

come from NEA dues, but Mr. Levin has misconstrued what was done with that money because he 

has taken statements out of context. 

 As we have explained repeatedly, to both his organization and to the federal agencies that 

investigate us, we write our budget documents for the NEA and its people, and the NEA and its 

people use a kind of shorthand. We know what we're talking about when we write something. 

 When we talk about a strategic plan for getting someone elected that means money will be 

used to communicate with our members and with our affiliates as an allowable internal matter to 

help get those people elected. The fact that someone unfamiliar with our dialogue pulled something 

out, that's a problem. 

Chairman Norwood. Did you notice on that page that there was over $10 million in expenditures? 

Mr. Chanin. I assume there is, if that's what it says. 

Chairman Norwood. Now, would you help us clarify this so we can all understand it, by 

providing this Subcommittee with the financial documents that would help us help you prove to us 

that these expenditures were paid by the NEA political action committee? 

Mr. Chanin. The only expenditures that were paid by the political action committee were the 

contributions to candidates, political Committees, and political parties. We believe, and we will 

demonstrate to the appropriate agency, that all of these programs which dues monies were used for 
24

are allowable under the Federal Election Campaign Act. 

Chairman Norwood. Do you consider the Congress of the United States an appropriate person to 

respond to on this? 

Mr. Chanin. Absolutely. 

Chairman Norwood. Good. Then my question is would you furnish us with documentation to 

help prove to us that these expenditures were paid for by the NEA PAC? 

Mr. Chanin. We will provide you with documentation to explain what these expenditures were 

used for. 

Chairman Norwood. So the answer to my question is yes? 

Mr. Chanin. The answer to your question is these were not expenditures by the PAC. We will 

explain to you what the money actually went for, rather than having you rely on a few out-ofcontext words. 

Chairman Norwood. And you will show us, then, that they were actually paid for by the PAC, and 

you'll give us the documentation? 

Mr. Chanin. No. We will give you the documentation to show you that they were paid out of dues 

and were appropriately paid out of dues, because those payments are lawful under federal law. We 

will give you the material that demonstrates that. 

Chairman Norwood. Who gets to determine that? 

Mr. Chanin. Ultimately, it will be the Federal Election Commission in the first instance, which 

we're quite confident will clear us; the IRS, with the complaint that's before that agency, we're quite 

confident it will clear us; and ultimately, it may be a court, which we're sure will also clear us. 

Chairman Norwood. Some of the expenditures that are listed on Page 2 imply the expenditure of 

staff time for the planning meetings of the coordinated campaign with the Democratic Party for 

1996. Can you tell us if the NEA PAC reimbursed the NEA for the staff time and travel of the staff 

that were involved in these meetings? 

Mr. Chanin. To the extent that those meetings were allowable under the Federal Election 

Campaign Act to be used and done with union dues, there was no reimbursement. We do not 

believe any staff time was spent on activities we're not allowed to do with union dues under the 

Federal Election Campaign Act. 

Chairman Norwood. My time is up, but, Mr. Levin, I'm coming directly back to you on this 

subject to hear your side of that, as soon as I get some more time. 
25

 With that, I yield to Mr. Owens. 

Mr. Owens. I just want to clarify a few things that might have bypassed me in the speed at which 

the conversation was moving. 

Mr. Levin, did you say you could not determine what was in the PAC, what funds were 

used by the NEA PAC versus NEA funds? 

Mr. Levin. No, I didn't say that. No. 

Mr. Owens. Do you get access to FEC reports? 

Mr. Levin. If we want to, but I didn't say that. 

Mr. Owens. Do the FEC reports tell you what the expenditures are related to? 

Mr. Levin. My recollection is that the FEC reports tell you what an organization is spending in 

terms of contributions. I’m not here testifying, about contributions from the PAC, but I'm happy to 

discuss it. 

Mr. Owens. What else do you want to know about the contributions? 

Mr. Levin. No, to me the question we've presented is about hundreds of thousands and multimillions of dollars not coming through the PAC, but coming through general revenue expenditures. 

Mr. Chanin just testified that these were plucked out of their materials. Everything that is in 

my testimony and that I speak about today is in their materials. Mr. Chanin said that during his 

first go-around. They're right here, out of the NEA's budgets. So the question isn't the PAC. The 

question is the general revenue expenditures; and while they are permitted certain campaign 

activity under FEC, that has nothing to do with the IRS definition. 

 I read the IRS definition and the regulation, and the interpretation is exceedingly broad. So 

if you want to be a 501(c)(5), if you want to have tax-exempt monies, then you have to comply 

with the Internal Revenue Code, not just the federal election law. 

Mr. Owens. There are reports required by labor law that they submit. 

Mr. Levin. LM-2s. 

Mr. Owens. And you've said that those reports are not clear to you? 

Mr. Levin. Well, if anybody can show me tens of millions of dollars in political expenditures in 

those reports, they'll cease to be unclear to me. They're very broad. 

Mr. Owens. Would you care to comment on that, Mr. Chanin? 
26

Mr. Chanin. Yes, on both things. 

 What we're dealing with here are definitions of words. We engage in political activity. We 

lobby. We do issue work. We have to do that to represent our people. 

 When we write up a budget, we don't expand for people like Mr. Levin to understand what 

we're talking about. We use shorthand, and those shorthands do not include illegal payments to 

candidates.

 As far as the IRS is concerned, the 990 form has a line that says, “Political Activity.” When 

I fill out my income tax, I look at the word and I look at the regulations to know what they're 

talking about. 

 NEA does the same thing. We look at what they mean by “Political Activity,” and we 

report on that line what we believe they are asking us to report. We believe that, within the 

definitions of the Internal Revenue Code, putting a zero on that line is perfectly appropriate. 

 As far as the Department of Labor and the LM-2 forms are concerned, with the 

LM-2s there's a little inconsistency in Mr. Levin's testimony, as well. First, he accuses us of not 

accurately filling out our LM-2 reports, and he also said the LM-2 reports are useless. Any union 

can get around it by simply giving broad categorizations, and I think he was implying the form 

should be changed. That may or may not be true, but as the forms now exist, we fill them out 

accurately under the categories that we are asked. There is no category on the LM-2 saying, 

“Political Activity.” It says “Programs.” It says “Overhead.” It says “Administrative Costs.” And 

we put our money where the form asks us to put it. 

Mr. Owens. Thank you.

Ms. Martinez, you were asked a question quickly by the Chairman about paying dues. Did 

you pay any money other than dues? Do you want to clarify that? In your testimony, you say, “I 

pay monthly dues and I contribute voluntarily to our political education fund, COPE.” Is that 

correct?

Ms. Martinez. It's taken out of my paycheck. I pay my dues and then I give to COPE, but it's done 

from my paycheck 

Mr. Owens. Yes. That's a “checkoff.” You don't have to do that unless you want to. 

Ms. Martinez. I do that myself, voluntarily. I give to them. 

Mr. Owens. I wanted to clarify that, because you made a statement clearly here: “I pay monthly 

dues and contribute voluntarily to our political education fund, COPE.” 

Ms. Martinez. Yes, I do. 
27

Mr. Owens. Now, are you satisfied with the decisions made about your COPE fund? The 

membership has an opportunity to determine how that money is going to be spent? 

Ms. Martinez. Yes. 

Mr. Owens. They participate in decision making about candidates. Mark Green has been 

mentioned. 

Ms. Martinez. Yes. 

Mr. Owens. In the selection of a candidate like Mark Green, was the union membership involved 

in that selection? 

Ms. Martinez. I was. Yes, we were involved in it. The union was involved in the selection of 

candidate Mark Green. 

Mr. Owens. At one point you said that the entire membership voted on some of these selections. 

Is that correct? 

Ms. Martinez. I don't understand what you're asking me. 

Mr. Owens. What? 

Ms. Martinez. I don't understand what you're asking me. 

Mr. Owens. I think at one point in your testimony you said the entire membership voted on some 

of these decisions about which candidate you were going to support. 

Ms. Martinez. Oh, members. Yes, we all voted. We went, registered, and volunteered, all of us, 

all our members got together. 

Mr. Owens. Well, my time is up, but I just wanted to clarify the fact that you voluntarily pay into 

the political action fund. 

Ms. Martinez. Yes, I do voluntarily pay. 

Chairman Norwood. Mr. Culbertson, you're now recognized. 

Mr. Culbertson. I'd like to direct, if I could, my questions to Mr. Chanin. 

 In reviewing the quotations which Mr. Levin has pulled directly off of the NEA's strategic 

plan and budget, I note the use of the word “support” throughout the description of these 

expenditures, which I understand are taken directly from your general revenue. I want to ask, first 

of all, do you know how much money the NEA has spent out of its general revenue to influence or 

support candidates for elections? 
28

Mr. Chanin. Other than to educate and work with our own members in regard to educationfavorable candidates, the answer is none. 

 NEA does not use general treasury money to support candidates for federal election. It only 

uses its PAC money, with the exceptions that the Federal Election Campaign Act allows us to do 

with dues. 

Mr. Culbertson. And Mr. Chanin, you understand that you and all the witnesses here are bound by 

Title 18, Section 1001, which requires anyone who testifies to Congress to testify truthfully and 

honestly, and making a false statement to Congress is punishable by a year in jail. Do you 

understand that? 

Mr. Chanin. I understand that, and regardless of that, I would still give you the same answers. 

Mr. Culbertson. Okay. I note from the quotes that are taken from your strategic plan mentioned 

by Mr. Levin that, for example, $350,000, $386,000, $540,000 were used for, “the support of propublic education candidates.” You said you know what the meanings of the words are that you're 

using. Webster's Dictionary defines “support” as assisting or helping, arguing or voting for, 

upholding, defending. 

 The very language of the strategic plan that you have laid out for your 1998-2000 budget 

cycle indicates that clearly, you're using these funds that Mr. Levin has identified, in the support of 

candidates in an election process, and that fits precisely the common sense meaning of the IRS 

Code, which says that you are influencing the election of candidates in an election cycle. 

Mr. Chanin. Anyone who believes that common sense is the touchstone for the IRS Code I believe 

should look a little deeper.

Mr. Culbertson. I'm not looking for a flip answer, sir. You're under oath here. 

Mr. Chanin. Well, it's a serious answer. 

Mr. Culbertson. No, sir, it's not. I want to hear a direct answer as to whether or not you 

understand the meaning of the word “support” and disagree with the common sense meaning. 

Mr. Chanin. No. I understand the meaning of the word “support,” and let me say flat out, NEA 

spends a great deal of money, dues money, to support federal candidates, but we consider support 

when we educate 2.7 million members and their families as to why they should vote for these 

people and why they should support those people, and why they, on their own time, should 

campaign for those people. 

 We spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in that education process. It is support. It is 

invaluable support, and we will continue to do it, because it's lawful. 

Mr. Culbertson. Now, the methods by which you communicate with your members include radio, 

television, and advertising? 
29

Mr. Chanin. No. No. Those are public media. We do not communicate with our members 

through public media. We communicate by the very things Mr. Levin has talked about; staff time, 

staff travel, all the things that he has flagged. 

 We fly people all over the country to meet with our members, to go to local affiliates, to 

attend meetings so that they can work with our members, quite lawfully, to help them support 

federal candidates. 

Mr. Culbertson. And the term “support,” then, you understand to mean to influence the election 

or defeat of particular candidates in election campaigns? 

Mr. Chanin. We believe that getting 2.7 million people and their members to vote for a candidate 

will influence the outcome of an election, yes. 

Mr. Culbertson. And the money you spend to communicate with those 2.7 million members 

doesn't reach anyone other than those members of the NEA exclusively? 

Mr. Chanin. We do the best we can to limit it to them. 

Mr. Culbertson. And you have no knowledge of any communication outside of the members of 

your union? 

Mr. Chanin. The only time we get it is when Mr. Levin or someone else files a charge. We then 

investigate and we do our best to respond to the charge. It is certainly our plan not to go beyond 

our restricted class, which is our members and their families. 

Mr. Culbertson. I have to tell you in the very brief time that I have remaining that your testimony 

here today has just reaffirmed my passionate belief and my pride in the State of Texas, and the fact 

that the State of Texas is a right to work state. I was a member of the state legislature for 14 years, 

and with the help of Governor Bush, we successfully kept the NEA from forcing unionization of 

Texas teachers. It has even strengthened my resolve to make sure that my colleagues in Texas 

prevent the NEA from forcing the unionization of Texas teachers, because it's clear that the 

techniques that you're using in order to extract dues from members is done, in my opinion, in a 

coercive way. The dues, as the testimony we have heard here today, are being used contrary to the 

express wishes of union members. 

 If I could, very quickly, I would like to ask you, ma'am, who paid your attorneys' fees? 

Ms. Klamut. The National Right to Work Legal Foundation is a charitable foundation, and they 

have assisted me with both situations in which I had to file with the EEOC. I would not have been 

able to pay attorney fees. 

 Had I not known about them, I can't imagine what I would be doing. When the union sends 

out their information, it says you have no rights except to join and/or pay what they call a fair share 

fee to the union, so it's kind of a moot point. If you don't want to support that organization, the 
30

money is still going to support that organization. 

Mr. Culbertson. Right. 

Ms. Klamut. So if it weren't for that agency, I'm not sure where I would be. 

Mr. Culbertson. Mr. Chairman, I hope one of the things we can look at is allowing members who 

are forced to sue to protect their rights to recover their attorneys' fees so they don't have to seek the 

help of other organizations. 

 Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing. 

Chairman Norwood. Mr. Kucinich, you are now recognized. 

Mr. Kucinich. Thank you very much. I want to thank all the witnesses for being here. 

 I have some questions that I'd like to ask of Mr. Bentivegna. You've been on the Executive 

Board of the Local since October of 2000, right? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Yes. 

Mr. Kucinich. And as a member, you attended all the Executive Board meetings, right? 

Mr. Bentivegna. That's correct. 

Mr. Kucinich. At that time, was that when the union supported Mark Green for Mayor? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Well, in 2001. 

Mr. Kucinich. Right. But were you there during that time? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Yes. 

Mr. Kucinich. Okay. Now, in my own congressional district, I've been interviewed by local 

unions as part of an endorsement process, and it's been my experience that local union 

endorsements tend to follow a lengthy process which include questionnaires, forums attended by 

union members at which candidates speak, and interviews with campaign staff and the candidates.

That's been my experience in Cleveland. 

 Does my experience differ from the process at 32BJ? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Well, with the process regarding Mark Green, the Executive Board, actually 

supervisors, had meetings and we discussed whom we thought we would want to endorse. It did go 

to the Executive Board. 
31

 We had some forums where there were four candidates. We have a very large Latino 

membership, and I was always asking about Fernando Ferrer who was running for mayor. I had 

suggested quite a few times to send a survey to the members, and let's see who, you know, the 

members really want. We sent about eight mailings, some of them nice and big and colorful, for 

Mark Green, so I think out of those eight mailings, we could have sent a survey over to our 

members. It's their money. It's not our money. 

Mr. Kucinich. But the process that I described is similar? I'm just trying to rely on my own 

experience here. 

Mr. Bentivegna. Similar, yes. 

Mr. Kucinich. Do you support the legislation that 32BJ endorses that would protect workers' jobs 

when a new employer takes over a job site? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Yes. 

Mr. Kucinich. And if you support this legislation, how is it that the union can't achieve this goal 

without being involved in politics? 

Mr. Bentivegna. I don't know if you were here when I gave my testimony. I absolutely believe in 

a political program. I still contribute to COPE. 

Mr. Kucinich. Oh, so you don't oppose the use of union dues for political activity? 

Mr. Bentivegna. What I oppose is what happened in my local union. 

Mr. Kucinich. Hold on, please. We have this unusual situation where we have a mark-up going on 

at the exact time that I'm talking to you, and I've just been called to vote. 

Mr. Chairman, I'm going to vote. 

Chairman Norwood. You can have your time back. 

Mr. Kucinich. I'll yield back my time. That's what I have to do. Wish I could stay longer. 

Mr. Culbertson. Well, come back and see us. We're not going anywhere for a while. 

Mr. Kucinich. I may do that. 

Chairman Norwood. Mr. Goodlatte, you're now recognized for five minutes. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Mr. Chairman, thank you, and I want to especially thank you for holding this 

hearing. This is a vitally important issue about personal freedoms in this country. To paraphrase 

the author of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson, who lived part of his life in my 

congressional district I'm proud to say: To compel someone to pay to support a cause in which 
32

they disbelieve is tyranny. That is exactly what you are combating here by holding this hearing and 

forcing people who should be enforcing this law to focus on, and I thank you for doing that. 

 I also want to thank the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Culbertson, for pointing out that in his 

state, people enjoy the freedom to take action as to whether they'll support a cause like abortion 

rights. If they want to do it freely, they can do it. If they don't want to do it, no one else can force 

them to do it. That's the same right that's enjoyed in my state of Virginia, and 20 other states, as 

well. That’s a total of 22 right to work states. 

 Now, Ms. Klamut, you don't have that right in Ohio, do you? 

Ms. Klamut. No, I don't. 

Mr. Goodlatte. If you lived in Virginia and had that right and were told by the Virginia Education 

Association that they were going to use the dues that you were paying them to support a political 

cause that you don't believe in, what would you do? 

Ms. Klamut. I would not join. It's not specifically politics, because they're going beyond politics. 

The argument that I'm hearing is that they need to be involved in politics to provide representation 

that's friendly to, in our case, education. Why are they delving into abortion? I guess I don't see 

where that's an education issue. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Well, that's a very, very good question. I see that it has very little to do with the 

benefits and working conditions which you, as a school department employee, are concerned with. 

 But nonetheless, I'd have to say that as an organization, they have the right to pursue these 

issues, no matter how contrived the relationship to what their main cause may be. However in 

Texas and Virginia and 20 other states you also have the right by voting with your feet and not 

participating. 

 Now, the fact that you don't have that right in Ohio is not due to the state of Ohio. That's 

due to the United States Congress and the Federal Government. In 1936, with the passage of the 

National Labor Relations Act, the Congress, none of us involved then thankfully, took away your 

right in Ohio and every other state in this country to choose to participate in a union or not. You 

and I would not choose to take away the right of the union to exist, or lobby for issues we don’t 

believe in, but they took away our right. 

 In 1948, the Congress gave back part of our rights by saying that a state could choose to opt 

out of that federal law, and have an exception to have their own right to work law. But why this 

Congress continues to support what I think Thomas Jefferson would describe as tyranny, I don't 

know.

 So I thank the Chairman for focusing on this issue, but I believe the real solution to this is to 

restore to you and everyone else in this country the right that people in Texas have, people in 

Virginia have, and people in 20 other right to work states have, that you and everyone in this 

country should have. That is to decide for yourself whether or not you want to join a union or pay 
33

union dues. 

Ms. Klamut. I would agree. 

Mr. Goodlatte. That is what I hope this Congress or a future Congress will take up, because right 

now we have legislation before this Congress with more than 120 co-sponsors, and a lot more 

support than that, that would restore that right to you. I'm very proud of the bill that I've introduced, 

because it's a one-page bill. Not many bills in the Congress are one page long. What the bill does is 

simply repeal that section of the Wagner Act, the National Labor Relations Act that took away your 

rights for all time, until this Congress acts to restore it. 

 I thank the Chairman for holding this hearing and focusing on this issue and what can be 

done to solve this abuse of people's individual rights. 

 Thank you. 

Chairman Norwood. Thank you very much. 

 It's important to point out that I don't think anybody up here objects to unions being 

involved in political activity. I think it would be crazy if they weren't. I think it's important that 

they do. But there are rules, and there are laws that govern how that should be done. What we're 

getting at is how you participate in the political activity is very, very important. 

 Now, I know we have things like LM-2 forms that are totally useless. I bet even Mr. Chanin 

would agree that it’s absolutely a waste of time to fill them out. I don't blame you folks for being 

angry, because it's just a serious waste of time. But, you know, there was a point to the LM-2 

forms. The Landrum-Griffin Act really did want the rank and file worker to get an accurate picture 

of the financial operations of the unions, and what they do and how they undertake it. It's fair, that a 

worker understand what their money is used for. 

 Getting back to where I left off. We have two pieces of testimony here. One says the NEA 

participates in politics but is doing so outside of their political action committee, and using general 

dues. Nobody who must pay those dues in order to keep their job can figure out what they're 

spending the money for. 

Mr. Levin, on Page 2, I believe you expound on that, because Mr. Chanin believes none of 

those expenditures actually are actually political expenditures. Therefore, general dues can pay for 

them. What is your position on that? 

Mr. Levin. Well, general dues can pay for them if they report and pay taxes on them, and that's 

what they don't do. 

 Now, on the first bullet, the Congressman from Texas hit on something. Are these monies 

spent to turn out NEA members to vote, as opposed to trying to influence politics outside the 

organization? The first bullet says, “354 cyberspace advocacy systems developed and maintained 

on the NEA and state affiliate web sites that mobilize association members and the public in 
34

support of pro-education legislation and candidates at the state and federal level.” When there are 

quotes, it's not me it's them 

 I can't wait to see this codebook the NEA is going to send you so I can try and decipher that 

to mean that we're just supporting our own people when we're talking about the public. All the rest 

of these expenditures are in their Association materials. 

 So I don’t have a Catch-22 problem. I didn't sign their tax return. They're the ones that 

brag every year at their 15,000-delegate assembly how they're influencing the direction of this 

Congress, and then tell the IRS they're not spending a penny. That's a Catch-22 they have to figure 

out.

 What I'm saying is, if I'm a union member and I belong to the NEA and I want to know how 

much money my union is spending on election cycle 1996, there is no way I can find out or figure 

it out. And you know what's funny? I don't think the NEA has any idea. 

Chairman Norwood. Could a better LM-2 form correct that? 

Mr. Levin. I think so. I think an LM-2 form that pretty much follows the IRS definitions would 

provide the kind of information that the membership and non-members, who have to pay, have a 

right to have. That would allow the NEA and other unions to come up here and say, “Well, we 

filed accurate forms,” instead of “Well, we're not required to, those forms are general.” 

 We have a very precise reporting requirement from the IRS, and I contend that they're not 

filling those out accurately. 

Chairman Norwood. Mr. Williams, I'd like to visit with you a few minutes. 

 You've gathered together a great deal of statistics on the political activity of NEA in your 

testimony. I'd like to give you the opportunity to add to your testimony by going over the 

importance of some of that data with us. 

Mr. Williams. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In Attachment 2, on Page 7, we list some of the things 

that the NEA has been doing in Washington State. It's very clear that what they've actually been 

doing is directly contrary to the statements of Mr. Chanin. 

 They have been involved in political races, and one of the key things is to develop a 

complementary plan for an external campaign, not internal to members, but external. They need to 

cooperate and coalesce with other groups at the state level. 

 Before the state affiliate can get money from the NEA, the Washington Education 

Association had to prove to the NEA that they had plans to organize and mobilize communities at 

the local level; external proof. In addition, the NEA assigned people to Washington State. Contrary 

to what Mr. Chanin says, the NEA has been found guilty in Washington State of violating the law 

in terms of our state. 
35

 The other thing is if you look at Attachment 3, and go down the first several items, these are 

not for members. The NEA regional representatives, the UniServ people, are the eyes and ears of 

the NEA for every one of your congressional districts. The NEA pays them. 

 In many congressional districts, a lot of the campaigns are run out of the UniServ offices.

In the 2000 election, the NEA spent millions of dollars to put Internet access into the homes of the 

UniServ representatives. They were given CD ROMs in at least 27 key congressional races. The 

NEA can delegate UniServ representatives to go anywhere in the country for up to two weeks to 

work on political campaigns. 

 We know from the testimony, from the statements of Mary Elizabeth Teasley, the former 

government affairs person of the NEA, that the NEA did place a considerable field operation in 

Florida, not to communicate with their members, but to do voter banks in the whole of Florida. 

 You know, we repeat a lot in Attachment 2 and 3. I could go on all day about the evidence 

we have from Washington State. The NEA is involved in external campaigns in Washington State, 

has been found guilty and has been fined. 

Mr. Culbertson [presiding]. Mr. Norwood has had to step out very briefly for a vote, and at this 

time, the Chair recognizes Mr. Owens for his round of questions. 

Mr. Owens. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a letter dated 

June 18, 2002, to Chairman Norwood, from Larry Engelstein, the General Counsel for SEIU, Local 

32BJ.

Mr. Culbertson. Without objection, the letter will be entered into the record. 

Mr. Owens. I have two points I want to make. 

 One, I'd like to have Mr. Chanin's help in clarifying the matter of religious objections. 

What must an agency fee payer with sincerely held religious objections do in order to have his or 

her religious objections accommodated by NEA? 

Mr. Chanin. As far as NEA and its affiliates are concerned, that person must simply fill out a preprinted form and mail it to our state affiliate, and an accommodation will be worked out. We work 

out those accommodations regularly, in every state throughout the country. Occasionally, in a 

system as big as ours, there may be a procedural snag. When it's called to our attention, we do the 

best we can to resolve it. It is simply filling out a pre-printed form. 

Mr. Owens, may I have the opportunity to respond to these very specific accusations that 

were made a moment ago? 

Mr. Owens. Yes, if you would be very brief, sir. 

Mr. Chanin. Yes, I will. 
36

 The reference to this web site for the public let me tell you what that was. He is quoting 

from a plan of action, a proposed plan. The plan was to come up with a web site, which had a 

firewall, which made it accessible only to NEA members, and through those members to influence 

the general public. 

 In terms of the IRS and what we report, I will reiterate, just before the complaint was filed, 

we had a month, a six-month audit by the IRS checking all of our books, all of our filings, all of our 

activities. We got a completely clean bill of health. 

 The quote that Mr. Williams gave us about NEA money going into Washington did, indeed, 

go for politics, but not electoral politics. It went to help the Washington Education Association 

combat ballot initiatives that were anti-worker, anti-public education, and to fight against antiunion legislation. That is allowable and that was what the money went for. 

Mr. Owens. Thank you very much. I want to make one closing statement myself. 

 This is the fourth hearing of this kind that's been held by the Republican majority, and I 

want to make it clear, today is June 20th, 2002, when we've had the experience of the Enron 

collapse and other corporations almost as large as Enron are collapsing, shareholders are losing 

large amounts of money, workers are losing a large amount of money in terms of their pension 

funds, we are focused on the wrong target. 

 Landrum-Griffin, whatever its shortcomings may be, was developed to respond to a crisis 

and a problem at that time, but the difficulties that Landrum-Griffin sought to correct with respect 

to unions were minuscule compared with the trillions of dollars we're dealing with now with 

corporations.

 Yet the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post will tell you that 

here in this capital, we are running away from the problem of any kind of regulation of the 

corporations which is meaningful. 

 This Committee voted on a bill where they weren't even willing to place a worker, a 

representative of the workers, on the pension fund board. 

 This Committee voted on a bill where they weren't willing to require that the top leadership 

in corporations report immediately on their transactions with respect to sales of stock, that the 

world should know what the top leadership, the executive leadership is doing with respect to their 

sale and purchase of stock. We would not sanction that. In general, the process going on right now 

is seeking to water down even the weak bill that was passed out of this Committee with respect to 

the protection of pension funds. 

 So we are harassing unions. This is the fourth such effort. We've learned as much as we 

should have needed to know in the first hearing, but it goes on and on, as a way to harass unions, 

while we know, as a fact, corporations loan high-level employees to campaigns. All kinds of 

things take place that no one seems to care about holding hearings on. But the immediate problem 

the American people feel is the collapse of confidence in the American corporate world, the whole 
37

engine that drives our economy. 

 Trust in what happens on Wall Street, what happens with the corporations that take billions 

of dollars in funds from shareholders is at the heart of our crisis right now, and this Republican 

majority is ignoring that very important development, and I want the record to show that is the 

great error of continuing to have these hearings. 

Mr. Culbertson. Thank you, Mr. Owens. 

Mr. Bentivegna, I'd like to follow up on your testimony regarding the leafleting of subway 

stops. What candidates were you distributing leaflets for? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Mostly for Mark Green. That was on September 11th, and I was in Brooklyn 

when the attack came, leafleting for a City Council candidate. 

 The thing that bothered me was that there was no choice; you were forced. You were told 

to get “X” amount of activists out there with you, and you had to be out there yourself. 

Mr. Culbertson. Who was the candidate that you were distributing the leaflets for? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Me personally? 

Mr. Culbertson. Yes. 

Mr. Bentivegna. Bill DiBlasio. 

Mr. Culbertson. Did you observe any other union members distributing leaflets for either Mark 

Green or this other candidate, or other candidates, at subway stops? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Oh, yeah. 

Mr. Culbertson. What candidates? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Who are the candidates? 

Mr. Culbertson. Any union members that you can recall, for the record, that you saw distributing 

leaflets? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Well, the entire staff, and hundreds of members that we had to recruit. 

Mr. Culbertson. Is it correct to assume that you were distributing leaflets to the general public, 

and not just to members of the SEIU? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Yes. 
38

Mr. Culbertson. Did the union pay you for the time that you spent distributing leaflets? 

Mr. Bentivegna. We were told to take personal days or vacation days. 

Mr. Culbertson. Did you volunteer to do the leafleting? 

Mr. Bentivegna. There was no volunteering. 

Mr. Culbertson. In what way did the union coerce or force you to do this leafleting? How was it 

made clear to you that it was not a volunteer effort? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Well, to read a memo: “Supervisors and delegates are expected to work from 

6:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. on primary day.” 

Mr. Culbertson. For purposes of clarifying the record, could you tell us what memo you're 

referring to? 

Mr. Bentivegna. I'm referring to a memo I didn't give in. It was a memo from Kevin Doyle, the 

Vice President of the union, to all supervisors and delegates, leading up to the September 11 

primary. In earlier meetings, we were told how we had to get “X” amount of members and there's a 

chart here describing how many members we had to recruit. 

Mr. Culbertson. If I could at this time, I want to be sure to enter this memorandum dated August 

20th from Kevin Doyle as part of the record of this hearing. 

Mr. Bentivegna. Yes. 

Mr. Culbertson. Without objection, so ordered. 

 Mr. Bentivegna, could I also refer you to a copy of a memorandum from Ms. Lisa Watson, 

dated October 23, 2001. Have you seen this before? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Yes. 

Chairman Norwood. This is a true and correct copy of that memorandum? 

Mr. Bentivegna. I'm sorry? 

Mr. Culbertson. The copy appears to be accurate? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Yes. 

Mr. Culbertson. I'd like, at this time, if I could, to enter this memorandum, dated October 23, 

2001, into the record, without objection. 
39

 Have you ever seen this before? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Yes, and let me explain this one. This was leafleting subway stations. 

 Each supervisor, of which I was one, had to pick five shifts in certain subway stations that 

we would have to handle. The shift times, if you notice, are 7:30 a.m. to 9:00 a.m. and then 

4:30 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. Our members come in at 8:30, and we were to be there to service our 

members, but instead, we were leafleting subway stations in the morning and at night. 

Mr. Culbertson. This memorandum, then, makes it clear that you had to work 15 hours a day on a 

primary day? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Yes. 

Mr. Culbertson. Were you paid overtime for that 15-hour day? 

Mr. Bentivegna. No. 

Mr. Culbertson. What work were you expected to do? 

Mr. Bentivegna. We were expected to do house visits, knocking on doors, and leafleting. 

Mr. Culbertson. For what purpose? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Getting the vote. Reminding people to vote for Mark Green or whomever you 

were assigned to. 

Mr. Culbertson. Was the staff paid overtime for marching in a Labor Day parade or for the 

primary election on the weekend of September 8 and 9, 2000? 

Mr. Bentivegna. No. 

Mr. Culbertson. Now, I'd like to show you a copy of a memorandum from Mr. Bryan Lambert, 

and I believe you should have a copy of that there in front of you. 

Mr. Bentivegna. I don't have that copy. 

Mr. Culbertson. Have you ever seen it before, sir? 

Mr. Bentivegna. I don't have that copy in front of me. 

Mr. Culbertson. This is dated October 16, 2001. I want to be sure the witness is provided with a 

copy of it, so you can identify it for the record so that we can enter it. 

Mr. Bentivegna. Thanks. Yes. 
40

Mr. Culbertson. Can you identify this memorandum, sir? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Yes, I can. 

Mr. Culbertson. And have you ever seen it before? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Yes. 

Mr. Culbertson. I'd like to have this memorandum entered into the record. Without objection, so 

ordered.

 What did the staff do on October 11, 2001? 

Mr. Bentivegna. What they did on October 11th was exactly the same as 9/11, 9/25, and 

November 6th. They all were forced to take personal days or vacation days. 

Mr. Culbertson. To do what, sir? 

Mr. Bentivegna. To take personal days or vacation days to campaign for Green and others, and if 

they had no vacation days left, we were told, “Borrow from next year's.” 

Mr. Culbertson. Was the work for the Green campaign voluntary? 

Mr. Bentivegna. No. 

Mr. Culbertson. If it was not voluntary, why would members have to take a personal day or a 

vacation day? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Well, let me clear that up. We recruited the rank and file members. That was 

voluntary. The staff that worked for the union itself, were forced to take personal days and 

vacation days. 

Mr. Culbertson. How was that done? Why would you have to take a personal or vacation day? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Because we were told to do that. Let me add, I argued a little bit, but it went 

nowhere.

Mr. Culbertson. Sure. Now, Mr. Bentivegna, can you tell us something about the two payments 

of $300,000, please? 

Mr. Bentivegna. What happened there, at a board meeting our president, Mike Fishman, said we 

were going to borrow money from our treasury to put into the COPE fund to go to the Mark Green 

campaign. I questioned that, whether that was legal, as did others; and our general counsel assured 

us that this was perfectly legal, it's, you know nothing out of the ordinary. 
41

Mr. Culbertson. Now, you say to the Mark Green campaign. What did “to” mean? How would 

they deliver it, in what form, and to whom? 

Mr. Bentivegna. They didn't tell us much. They don't give us all the details. 

Mr. Culbertson. Was it your understanding that these payments were to come out of the general 

treasury? 

Mr. Owens. Mr. Chairman, point of order? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Absolutely. 

Mr. Owens. You have exceeded the five-minute limit. Ms. Woolsey has been here for some time 

and would like to ask a question. 

Mr. Culbertson. I'll reserve the remainder of our questions until we get back to our time. Thank 

you.

Ms. Woolsey, you are recognized, please. 

Ms. Woolsey. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Culbertson. Ms. Woolsey, we are running a little tight on time for a vote on the floor. 

Ms. Woolsey. No, no, no. We have time. We've only had one bell. 

Mr. Culbertson. I'm sorry. We need to recess, so we'll come back and start with you. I assure you 

you'll be first. 

Ms. Woolsey. I can't come back, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Culbertson. You’ll be the first one out of the gate. 

Ms. Woolsey. I can't come back. I'm sorry. 

Mr. Culbertson. We are out of time, and we need to recess to allow Members time to make that 

vote. We will stand in recess subject to the call of the Chair. As soon as the vote is concluded the 

Chair will reconvene this meeting. 

We are in recess, subject to the call of the Chair. 

Ms. Woolsey. You guys are bullies. 

[Recess.]
42

Chairman Norwood. The Committee will come to order. Ms. Solis, you're now recognized for 

five minutes. 

Ms. Solis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I appreciate the opportunity to have this hearing. I also just want to add my comments, that 

while we may not always agree on issues, it is important to hear individuals testify on both sides, 

and I think it's very important that we try to have a balance. 

 I understand that we have two individuals that are testifying that represent the unions, who 

are in favor of the protections that are in place that are provided by unions, so I want to welcome 

all of you, but I particularly want to hear testimony or some of the comments you made, Ms. 

Martinez, and welcome you for being here. 

 I'm from Los Angeles, and have worked closely with many of the maintenance workers in 

SEIU in Los Angeles, in their recent Justice for Janitors campaign, and wanted to hear more from 

you, because you mentioned you were an immigrant. What kinds of protections do you see the 

union providing for workers who are coming into this area of work? 

Ms. Martinez. Well, the union doesn't care what nationality you are. They help you. They're there 

to stand behind you at work, and I think that's very important. Everyone needs that. You have 

rights when you are at work when you have a union behind you. I especially feel that's very 

important to me, since I'm a single woman, to have the union behind me at work. 

Ms. Solis. Do you find that the information that the union provides you is useful to you? 

 I understand you mentioned issues regarding wages earlier in your testimony. Is that useful, 

to get information regarding livable wages and wages that are providing workers with adequate 

sustenance, so that they can keep their jobs and keep their households going? 

Ms. Martinez. Yes. Yes, I do. 

Ms. Solis. Okay. Thank you for coming and being here. 

 My other questions would be directed to the representative from NEA, Mr. Robert Chanin. I 

wanted to ask him, with respect to education employees who are represented by NEA affiliates in 

collective bargaining, are they required to join NEA? 

Mr. Chanin. No. NEA is a voluntary organization. We have no union shop arrangements 

anywhere in the country. There are no union shop arrangements in the public sector. All of our over 

3 million members have chosen to voluntarily join. 

 If someone does not choose to join, but is represented by one of our unions in collective 

bargaining, that person may be required, under state law, to pay an agency fee to offset his or her 
43

share of the services that he or she receives. 

Ms. Solis. My next question is, if an education employee voluntarily opposes to join NEA, and 

then objects to certain political or ideological positions, as was stated earlier by other witnesses, or 

activities engaged in by the affiliates, could he or she obtain a rebate on those dues? 

Mr. Chanin. Absolutely. We first figure out how much the agency fee is. 

 We mail, every year, to every agency fee payer, what's known as a Hudson packet. It's 

about 60 pages of information explaining what we intend to charge them, the basis for that charge, 

and how the money will be expended, and it includes a report by an independent auditor. 

 If any agency fee payer objects on political, ideological, or religious grounds, the person 

simply sends in to the affiliate a pre-printed form and that person, if it's political or ideological, will 

get a rebate on the amount of the fee. If it's religious, and we conclude it is a legitimate religious 

objection, the person will probably pay no money to the union. All of his or her money will go to 

some non-religious charity that is generally agreed on between the union and the individual in 

question.

Ms. Solis. Are there any cases that you can cite or instances where this has occurred? 

Mr. Chanin. We work out, we must have, and this is off the top of my head, maybe 30,000 or 

40,000, 50,000 agency fee payers. Most of them do not object. We have several thousand objectors 

every year. At least 98 percent of them work through our system, get their rebate, have their 

accommodation, and everyone is satisfied with it. 

 In a system as big and diverse as ours, there are occasionally people who are dissatisfied 

with the way the system works. They file a complaint. We do our best to resolve them, and 

occasionally, really one out of 30,000 to 40,000 will end up with a charge to the EEOC, and we do 

our best to resolve it in that forum. 

Ms. Solis. One of the issues raised today at this hearing was with respect to religious objections by 

some of the fee payers. How do you handle that? How does NEA accommodate that? 

Mr. Chanin. The way in which that works is, if the person files this form indicating that he or she 

has a religious objection, we will generally meet with the person and attempt to agree upon a 

mutually acceptable non-religious charity. The Red Cross is commonly picked, or some other 

charity, and all of that person's money is sent to the charity, and the union will receive no money 

from the person. 

 The only thing we ask for is, we need to make a determination that it is a sincerely held 

religious belief, and it's a very simple one or two questions to determine that, and then we move on. 

That is how it operates, to my knowledge, in all of the NEA state affiliates. 

Ms. Solis. Do they have to fill a form out annually to do this? 
44

Mr. Chanin. Pardon me? 

Ms. Solis. If they have an objection based on their religion, do they have to appeal this annually? 

How does that work? 

Mr. Chanin. Well, that varies from state to state. In some states, if the objection is lodged, it will 

continue for several years. In other states, we do require that it be renewed annually.

The reason for that is, the objection is typically to a policy position that NEA or an affiliate 

may have taken. Those policy positions change from year to year, and we send out the form again 

to see if the person has changed his or her mind or is still troubled by the policies we take. 

Ms. Solis. So you do make an attempt to get back to them? 

Mr. Chanin. We do. We do. And it varies somewhat from state to state. 

Ms. Solis. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Norwood. Mr. Culbertson, you're now recognized to continue with your line of 

questions.

Mr. Culbertson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Bentivegna, if I could complete the line of questioning that I had begun with you before 

we had to recess for the vote, you had described the two $300,000 payments. Once again for the 

record, if you could please, tell us about those two payments and what they were intended to be 

used for. 

Mr. Bentivegna. Okay. This proposal was brought up, that we were going to borrow from the 

treasury two payments of $300,000 to go into the COPE fund to be spent on the Green and other 

campaigns. I questioned it and one or two other board members questioned whether this was legal, 

and we were assured that it was legal. 

 The plan then would be to get incoming COPE money the following year, which would 

obviously be this year, and replace that money back into the treasury. 

Mr. Culbertson. And who brought this idea up and where was it first brought to your attention? 

Mr. Bentivegna. President Fishman and General Counsel Engelstein. 

Mr. Culbertson. And the money was to be given directly to whom? Where did they tell you the 

money was going to go? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Well, they didn't. You know, it was vague. But the money was going to be taken 

from the treasury to the COPE fund, to give to the campaigns, the political program and the 
45

candidates we were supporting. 

Mr. Culbertson. It was made very clear to you that that was the purpose of the $300,000 

payments, for political purposes, to be used for the Mark Green campaign? 

Mr. Bentivegna. For political purposes. 

Mr. Culbertson. For the Mark Green campaign? 

Mr. Bentivegna. And others. 

Mr. Culbertson. And others. Was it also your understanding that these payments were to come 

out of the general treasury of Local 32BJ? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Yes. 

Mr. Culbertson. Does the general treasury of Local 32BJ contain funds that were derived from 

union dues? 

Mr. Bentivegna. Yes, they do. 

Mr. Culbertson. The funds are commingled? 

Mr. Bentivegna. I'm sorry? 

Mr. Culbertson. The funds are mingled together? 

Mr. Bentivegna. No. The general treasury is our dues money. 

Mr. Culbertson. Right. Was there any consultation with the membership of Local 32BJ before 

this expenditure was made? 

Mr. Bentivegna. No. 

Mr. Culbertson. Thank you very much for your testimony. 

 And I want to make it clear to Mr. Chanin and for the record that I understand that the NEA 

is, as you describe it, a voluntary association. But as I understood your testimony and the questions 

that you were just asked, Mr. Chanin, those who do not choose to join the union have their 

paychecks docked against their will. If they're not a member they have to distribute out of their 

paycheck what is determined to be the benefit they derive from the work you do in collective 

bargaining; is that correct? 

Mr. Chanin. That's a slight overstatement. In some states, we have been successful in negotiating 

agency fee arrangements. In the states in which we have negotiated them, the people who don't 

join are required to pay a fee to the union to offset the benefits of collective bargaining. It's not a 
46

universal; it's in certain locations. 

Mr. Culbertson. Under state law? 

Mr. Chanin. Under state law. We do not operate under the National Labor Relations Act. There 

are 20 states now that have laws that allow unions to negotiate agency fee arrangements. In those 

states, if we are successful on a local-by-local basis, we may or may not have an agency fee. 

Mr. Culbertson. Well, it is truly a point of great pride in Texas that our greatest right is the right to 

be left alone, for the government to stay out of our pocketbook, our lives, our business, and away 

from our families, and your testimony here today certainly does reaffirm my passionate 

commitment to that right. It's important, I think, that not only teachers, but everyone who works a 

job has the right to do so without being compelled to join a union, without being compelled to give 

up some portion of their paycheck to support the activities of the union, or to pay for activities of 

the union that they are religiously or philosophically opposed to. It is a point of great pride in Texas 

that I hope we're able to extend around the nation now that our great governor has been elected 

President. 

Mr. Chanin. Our 40,000 members in Texas would like nothing better than the right to engage in 

collective bargaining so that they can improve their salaries and working conditions. It's one of the 

goals of our affiliate in Texas. 

Mr. Culbertson. Collective bargaining so they could strike? 

Mr. Chanin. No. Public employees in most states cannot strike. They want the right to bargain so 

they can be involved in resolving problems that affect their working conditions. There are only four 

or five states in the country that allow public employees to even have a limited right to strike. 

Mr. Culbertson. Well, we in Texas have certainly resisted that. I know we will continue to, 

because we honor individual freedom, and the idea that a teacher would strike and shut down a 

school, I think, is abhorrent. It is one of many, many reasons I strenuously disagree with the work 

that the NEA does as a union, and I'm proud to say I've never taken a nickel from the unions, ever 

in my years of public service. 

 Thank you. 

Chairman Norwood. Thank you very much, Mr. Culbertson. 

Ms. Klamut and Mr. Robey, I want to direct some time to you, if I could. I'm going to ask 

both of you to answer the same question. 

Ms. Klamut, we'll start with you. I was a little bit amazed to hear the testimony that NEA is 

a voluntary organization. Do you have any thoughts about that? 
47

Ms. Klamut. I'm sorry. I don't mean to be flippant, but voluntary? I guess it depends on your 

definition of voluntary. Voluntary, to me, would be “Yes, I agree, and here is my money.” 

 I don't want the representation, and albeit I realize it exists and that collective bargaining 

exists, and they would say I reap the benefits. I might debate that. However, the organization funds 

things that are just “anti” what I believe in; anti-family, anti-education. 

Chairman Norwood. Well, there are civil rights laws to protect you from that. What's wrong? 

Ms. Klamut. They're still trying to get my money. They are collecting this money, and it's not 

voluntary, and most rank and file people don't realize they have any kind of choice, because the 

packet that Mr. Chanin referred to that's sent out says you have two options. One is to join the 

union, or two pay your fair share, which is like 90 percent of the union dues, to the union. 

Chairman Norwood. Ninety percent? 

Ms. Klamut. Eighty-seven or 90 percent, something of that nature. 

Chairman Norwood. So you can join and pay dues? 

Ms. Klamut. Correct. 

Chairman Norwood. You can not join, and pay dues? 

Ms. Klamut. Correct. 

Chairman Norwood. And so “ voluntary” means to decide which of those you want to do? 

Ms. Klamut. Right. And you can do either one. You have that freedom. 

 And if you find their resolutions abhorrent, if you find some of the issues that they delve 

into counter to everything that you believe, whatever your belief system, you have no choice. 

 I am amazed that Mr. Robey and I even found some kind of voice so that we could argue 

against this. Had we had to pay attorney fees on the incomes that we generate as educators, we 

couldn't do it. So it's not voluntary, and there is no choice, and there is no dissemination of 

knowledge that even religious objectors have any kind of choice. 

Chairman Norwood. Well, Mr. Chanin is obviously a very good lawyer, and he knows that Civil 

Rights Title 7 gives you the right to opt out of that if it's against your religious beliefs. Why 

couldn't you get out of it? What was the problem? 

Mr. Robey. The problem is, you don't know. The Hudson packet that he referred to does not say 

one thing about religious accommodation. As Kathleen said, you're offered two choices; fair share 

or you join the union. Either way, you pay, and it's compulsory. I can't stop anyone from taking 
48

the money out of my paychecks. 

 So I and some other teachers have stumbled across the fact that we do have that right. 

Chairman Norwood. What happened when you tried to exercise that right, Mr. Robey? 

Mr. Robey. Well, the first year that I tried to exercise that right, they totally ignored me. I didn't 

even get a letter responding, saying that “You've been ignored, you know, that?” “You're not going 

to get it.” I got nothing. 

Chairman Norwood. All right. Wait a minute, now. What were your options at that point? You 

discovered that you had rights. You tried to exercise those rights with the union, and they ignored 

you. What could you do next? 

Mr. Robey. Well, at that time, I didn't know what I could do next, so I did nothing. But the 

following couple of years, I did a little more research and I found that I could do something. 

Chairman Norwood. Are there other people like you? 

Mr. Robey. Many. 

Ms. Klamut. Yes. Yes. 

Mr. Robey. My attorney, for example, has numerous affidavits of people from Ohio alone that are 

in the same situation I am. It took me one year, 13 months, for me to get the religious 

accommodation. 

Mr. Chanin says that is an occasional thing that happens. There are numerous affidavits 

from the people just in Ohio that have gone through these same types of situations. This is a 

common occurrence, much more common than we were being led to believe here. 

Chairman Norwood. So again, we have conflicting testimony. 

 One side says this is voluntary and the other side says it's not. One side says that just the 

two of you, nobody else is involved. The other side says, wait a minute, there are a lot of people 

involved, but most folks who teach school can't run out and pay Mr. Chanin's fees to get your rights 

taken care of 

 Is that where we are? 

Mr. Robey. That is correct, and also, most people don't know they have that option. I'm sure more 

would exercise it if they knew. They're only going to find out if they stumble across it or happen to 

hear about our little battle going on in the press. That's the only way they're going to know. 

Ms. Klamut. And then it would be a battle. Because for me to change school districts and to have 

already established that I have a religious accommodation, to move just 20 minutes away from my 
49

previous school district and to be told that wasn't legally binding. This UniServ person who I 

understand has no legal training, her expertise is targeting problems with the union, has in no way 

attempted to even accommodate me, discuss this, or ask about it. 

 I guess the term “stonewall” is what comes to my mind. We're one of the few groups of 

people that understand we have these rights, and even as we attempt to exercise these rights, this is 

the extent we have to go to ask for an accommodation because of religious beliefs. 

Chairman Norwood. The unions are to help you. That's their job, I think. That's what I 

understand their job to be. 

 They don't inform you of your rights? They don't tell you, “Look, you know, we've got 

things we've got to fund, but if any of them go against your religious beliefs, there's a way out of 

that.” They don't inform you of that? 

Mr. Robey. No. 

Ms. Klamut. No. 

Chairman Norwood. I thought they were for you. 

Mr. Robey. It is not posted at the school; it's not in the Hudson packet. It is nowhere. 

Chairman Norwood. I will conclude. 

Mr. Chanin as general counsel to the largest union in the United States, I know you're 

familiar with the Landrum-Griffin Act, and my question is, is one of the purposes of the reporting 

and disclosure section of that act that, “A union member should be able to get an accurate picture of 

all the financial operations the union has undertaken.” Is that one of the purposes of the LandrumGriffin Act? 

Mr. Chanin. I believe it is. 

Chairman Norwood. No offense. Don't give me a lawyer answer. Give me a granddaddy answer 

on this. Do you really believe in your heart that a member of the NEA should be able to know how 

much money his or her union is spending on not just politics, but other issues in which the unions 

are involved that affect their religious beliefs? 

Mr. Chanin. I believe they should and they do, and not only the members, but the agency fee 

payers, as well. 

 The statements that were made here that they're not alerted to the fact that they have the 

right to file a religious objection, I cannot speak at this moment about the form used in Ohio. I 

know that many of our state affiliates include that information in the Hudson packet. 
50

Chairman Norwood. Well, tell me, give me a clue about a document produced anywhere by the 

NEA that states simply, “This is how much money the NEA has spent in a year.” 

Mr. Chanin. Oh, well, as far as the agency fee payers are concerned, it's the audited statement that 

it sent every year to every agency fee payer, a 30-page document verified by an independent 

auditor, which breaks out all of our expenditures and charges. 

 If someone wishes to go beyond that, we produce a budget document, and we produce 

30,000 of them ever year, and send them out to every local affiliate in the country, and they are 

made available to every member or fee payer in that particular local. 

Chairman Norwood. So members of the unions can very readily determine what their union 

leadership is spending money on; is that what you're saying? 

Mr. Chanin. We believe not only members, agency fee payers as well. 

 In addition, they can go to the many filings we have with the Internal Revenue Service, 

which is a public document; the Landrum-Griffin Act, which is a public document; and the Federal 

Election Commission, which is a public document. 

Chairman Norwood. Does anybody else agree with that? 

Mr. Chanin. I think my colleague here does. 

Chairman Norwood. Mr. Williams, do you agree with that? 

Mr. Williams. Mr. Chairman, I categorically disagree with that. As a trained CPA, there is no way 

you can take the information in the Hudson packet put out by the NEA and determine the 

percentage chargeable or non-chargeable. 

 I had a power of attorney as a trained CPA to represent a teacher at an arbitration hearing.

The NEA refuses to give the teachers, the challengers, copies of the documents in advance of the 

hearing. They have someone on a conference call. It's the only time you can challenge it. 

 I had to go up to the union headquarters where the arbitrator is picked by the union, paid for 

by the union, and lay out seven different documents. The documents don't track. 

 The information that they give to their representatives at the NEA representative assembly 

is a different format than the information they provide in the audit. There is no trained auditor who 

can go through the documents they provide in the Hudson packet and determine the percentage of 

chargeability. 

 Enron would love their accounting system. 

Chairman Norwood. Ms. Klamut, did you ever get a Hudson packet? 
51

Ms. Klamut. Yes, sir, I did. 

Chairman Norwood. I bet you could figure out, because you’re a teacher, how much was being 

spent.

Ms. Klamut. No. Maybe my master's degree is in the wrong area. 

Chairman Norwood. Okay. Mr. Robey, you knew? 

Mr. Robey. No, I'm sorry, I did not know. There's no way you can tell by looking at it, and the 

only people that do get them are those that choose to do fair share. The standard person that's a 

member wouldn't even see one of those. 

Ms. Klamut. Perhaps Mr. Chanin will send Mr. Robey and I those forms now. We'll be receiving 

those in the next week or so? 

Mr. Chanin. If you would contact me, I'll send you any documents that are helpful to you. 

Ms. Klamut. I mean the form that we fill out so that we can be religious objectors, specifically. 

Mr. Chanin. I believe an effort is being made through the EEOC to work out your problems as we 

speak.

Chairman Norwood. The Labor Department has a mission under Landrum-Griffin. Surely we can 

go to the LM-2 form and discover how much money a union spent. Right, Mr. Chanin? 

Mr. Chanin. You can get the information that the Landrum-Griffin Act requires us to provide. 

Chairman Norwood. You're back to lawyer answers. 

Mr. Chanin. No. No. It does not provide as much as our 50-page budget does, but it provides 

several pages of relevant information about how our money is spent. 

Chairman Norwood. Let me ask this final question, then. 

 Would you agree or not agree that the current LM-2 form does not fulfill the purpose of the 

reporting and disclosure provisions of the Landrum-Griffin Act? 

Mr. Chanin. For the record, I think it's an adequate form and it does fulfill the purposes, yes. 

Chairman Norwood. Does anybody else familiar with the LM-2 form at that table think that the 

LM-2 form does indeed fulfill the requirements of the Landrum-Griffin Act? 

Mr. Levin. No. 
52

Chairman Norwood. For the record, Mr. Williams and Mr. Levin shake their heads that they don't 

agree.

Ms. Klamut. No. 

Chairman Norwood. Ms. Klamut doesn't agree. Mr. Robey, Ms. Martinez? Not sure. Not sure, 

Mr. Bentivegna. Well, I too agree that you can't tell. 

Ms. Solis? 

Ms. Solis. Yes. Am I allowed to ask one question? 

Chairman Norwood. You know you are. 

Ms. Solis. Thank you. 

 I'd like to ask Mr. Robert Chanin, with respect to the religious objector provisions in Title 7 

and the NLRA that were enacted, my understanding is that they were, in fact, enacted by the 

Supreme Court before the Beck decision was decided, and created a right for anyone represented 

by a union to object to paying anything not related to collective bargaining, contract administration, 

or grievance disputes. 

 In light of all this, are the religious objector provisions still necessary? 

Mr. Chanin. Well, the religious objector provision in Title 7 we think is appropriate. We think it's 

necessary. We comply with it. I think it gives people like these individuals here the absolute right 

to get their money back if they object on religious grounds to any policies. 

 What Beck and some of the other cases deal with are not objections on religious grounds, 

they're objection on political or ideological grounds, which is somewhat different than the religious 

objection.

 As far as anyone's complaint about what we may or may not send out to agency fee payers, 

I can say to you, we comply with both the letter and spirit of all of the Supreme Court decisions 

which tell unions what they have to send out. As a matter of fact, NEA has been involved in most 

of those Supreme Court decisions, and we bend over backwards to comply, both letter and spirit, to 

what the Supreme Court has said we must include in our Hudson packet. 

 Every time we have been challenged in court, we have prevailed in demonstrating that we 

do comply with what the Court asks us to do. 

Chairman Norwood. Thank you all for this long but important hearing. It's important to me, and I 

have a hunch it's important to some of the people at our table and in the audience. 

 This really is about the rights of individual Americans who happen to be in a union. It is not 

about the difficulties that union leadership has in collecting their dollars. Is about your everyday 
53

constitutional rights. 

 Before I came to Washington, I was just a country dentist, and I still am. The only reason I 

was crazy enough to run for this job is that I thought things in this town were messed up, and I 

wanted to do something about it, so here I sit. I know very little, frankly, about unions and have 

certainly never been involved in them. Now that I've gotten involved in this issue of union dues that 

I really didn't ask to get involved in and have listened to today's testimony, I can honestly report to 

you that our government is more messed up than I ever imagined. 

 At this hearing, we have two God-fearing Americans, and they're telling us that their union 

dues money was being used to support causes that are contrary to their Christian beliefs. There isn't 

a person in this room that doesn't know that's not right and not what this country was founded on.

There's not one of you, I don't care which side you're on or where you are on this issue. That is 

dead wrong in America. They did not want to be forced to violate these beliefs that they held 

deeply by supporting causes that contradict the Bible and promoting activity that the Bible clearly 

prohibits. They ought not to be forced to do that. It doesn't matter who you are. In America, you 

don’t have to do that. 

 Yet, despite the Constitution and the laws that Congress enacted, these good folks have to 

move Heaven and Earth, and go to court before they're allowed to have their money directed to a 

charity rather than a cause in which they truly, deeply don't believe. Typically teachers have 

difficulty paying legal fees

 It seems that the leadership of the Ohio Education Association, from what I've heard today 

and what I've read, has no respect for the beliefs and rights of these two good people, and I'm not 

sure how many others may be involved in this. It's hard for anybody to know that. We've heard 

testimony that it's just a couple of people, and we've heard testimony that it involves a lot of 

people. I guess the leadership in Ohio believes it does not have to obey the law until it is served 

with a court order to do so, even though the law is pretty clear. 

 Why should the Ohio Education Association act any differently, frankly? It's parent 

organization, the National Education Association, has precisely the same attitude about this. It 

reports to the IRS that it spends zero dollars on political expenditures. Most people who have run 

for an elected office know differently than that. You don't have to have an accounting degree to be 

able to figure that out. 

 Now, I know that some in Washington are not sticklers for the truth, and that's sad. Richard 

Nixon said, “I never lied to the American people,” and Bill Clinton said, “I never had sex with that 

woman.” But at least those two statements were initially plausible. We wanted to believe them. 

We wanted them to be true. The NEA's statement on its Form 990, that it spends zero dollars on 

politics, isn't credible, even for a country dentist. I know better than that. Everyone in this room 

knows better than that. Everyone at the IRS, with a pulse knows better. But nothing is done in this 

town, and I don't like the word lying, but it is. The lying and the evasion continue and we continue 

to talk about it, and next year it will continue again. 
54

 We also heard from a gentleman today who was a member of the Service Employees 

International Union for 15 years. The man, it seemed to me, has worked very hard to clean up his 

local union. That's a real union member. That's somebody who really cares about the working 

people in the union. A large portion of his dues was used by the local president to build a marble 

penthouse and to pay himself $400,000 a year. That's not what unions are about. That should not 

be their function.

Their function, Ms. Martinez, should be what your union did, which is admirable from all 

of our points of view. Take care of each other. Be a family. Negotiate. Try to get better wages. 

That's what it's all about. It isn't about somebody having a marble penthouse. When the penthouse 

paid for with union dues was exposed, he was not prosecuted, or even asked to give the money 

back. He was given a golden parachute of $1.5 million. Guess where that money came from. You 

helped pay it, Ms. Martinez. Mr. Bentivegna, you helped pay it. 

 After a new election was held, our witness was elected as a union officer and hired as a staff 

person. He then found that part of his job was to campaign for political candidates while on union 

time. What he didn't know is that this is an illegal in-kind contribution for a union that has given 

the candidate the maximum contribution under the law. I have to follow that rule. Most of us have 

to follow those rules. 

 He also saw $600,000 of his local's funds illegally laundered to help the campaign of a 

candidate that the union leadership had chosen without any consultation with the membership. 

That candidate was chosen by a handful of people, and a large number of people were forced to pay 

for it. Didn't matter whether they liked it, believed in it, right candidate or wrong. “You just send 

the money. We'll take care of it.” 

 One might think this could only happen in some corrupt fringe of the union movement, in a 

local dominated by members of the Mafia perhaps. No, it didn't. It happened in the home local of 

John Sweeney, the president of the AFL-CIO. The corrupt union official who built the marble 

penthouse was John Sweeney's successor as president of that local. Furthermore, Mr. Sweeney was 

a member of the local's Executive Board while this pillaging of local finances took place.

Everyday working people were buying that penthouse. Then, when that person was exposed and 

forced to leave, the union was taken over by Michael Fishman, the former chief assistant to 

Andrew Sterns, successor to John Sweeney, as president of the Service Employees International 

Union and formerly a chief aid to John Sweeney. 

 And the allegations of corruption continue. This is about taking money from working 

Americans who get up every day and work hard and pay their dues to a union so that union will 

help them. Has that local ever even been audited by the Department of Labor or prosecuted by the 

Department of Justice, ever? The answer to that is, no. That's wrong. 

 Now, there is a right way and a wrong way in this world, and Lord knows, we have a hard 

enough time following it, but that is wrong. I would like to announce at this hearing that this 

lawlessness will not continue if there's anything on this Earth I can do about it, and I have two 

messages. 
55

 One, to John Sweeney: John, your home local that is being run by your protégé is being 

accused of committing a serious crime. Use your influence and the many resources of the AFLCIO, to find out the truth. If illegal acts were committed, report them to the proper authorities and 

make everybody look better. 

I also have a message for this Administration, that is headed by a President that I support, 

continue to admire, respect, and work hard for. Dear Mr. President: Take charge of this 

government and enforce the law through the Labor Department, all the laws, but let's just start at 

the Labor Department, because enforcement over there hasn't taken place for years. 

 This Administration has been in office for nearly a year-and-a-half. It is time it started to 

enforce the Landrum-Griffin Act, or repeal the act. We need new disclosure forms. The LM-2 

forms are an absolute joke. We need to give the Secretary of Labor the resources that she needs to 

enforce the law. We are a nation of laws, and without them, we are nothing. 

 Most of all, we need a new attitude in Washington, D.C. about the rights of workers. I'm 

not talking about the people who run the unions. I'm not talking about the leaders. I'm talking 

about the God-fearing Americans who are the first to answer the bugle when the time comes, that 

get up every morning and go to work, those workers who performed so admirably in New York 

City. That's who I'm talking about, and that's what this hearing's about. Workers are not wards of 

the unions. Workers have rights, and unions are not above the law, and it is high time we separated 

the word “union” and the individual worker. 

 It is about time that the Justice Department and the Internal Revenue Service and the Labor 

Department start enforcing the law. I don't care where you are on this issue; it is time for them to 

do their job. If they don't, officials of those departments are going to be sitting in those chairs as 

witnesses under oath, and I'm going to wear them out. 

 It is time the workers that choose to be in unions, which is 10 percent of the workforce of 

this great country, have their rights enforced by whatever means this government has. We have the 

ability. Now it is time to have the will. 

 Thank you all for your kind attention. Thank you for attending our hearing. We hope to be 

discussing this again in the near future. 

Whereupon, at 1:15 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned. 
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Table of Indexes 

Chairman Norwood, 2, 5, 6, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 22, 23, 24, 27, 30, 31, 33, 34, 38, 42, 44, 46, 

47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52 

Mr. Bentivegna, 13, 30, 31, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 44, 45 

Mr. Chanin, 17, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 28, 29, 35, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 49, 50, 51, 52 

Mr. Culbertson, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 35, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 44, 45, 46 

Mr. Culbertson [PRESIDING], 35 

Mr. Goodlatte, 31, 32, 33 

Mr. Kucinich, 30, 31 

Mr. Levin, 19, 23, 25, 33, 34, 51 

Mr. Owens, 25, 26, 27, 35, 36, 41 

Mr. Robey, 6, 9, 47, 48, 49, 51 

Mr. Williams, 15, 34, 50 

Ms. Klamut, 6, 29, 30, 32, 33, 46, 47, 48, 49, 51, 52 

Ms. Martinez, 11, 22, 26, 27, 42 

Ms. Solis, 42, 43, 44, 52 

Ms. Woolsey, 41