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80–015 PDF 2002

S. HRG. 107–492

NOMINATION OF THOMAS M. SULLIVAN TO BE

CHIEF COUNSEL FOR ADVOCACY AT THE

U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND

ENTREPRENEURSHIP

UNITED STATES SENATE

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

OCTOBER 16–17, 2001

Printed for the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate

(II)

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

JOHN F. KERRY, Massachusetts, Chairman

CARL LEVIN, Michigan

TOM HARKIN, Iowa

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut

PAUL D. WELLSTONE, Minnesota

MAX CLELAND, Georgia

MARY LANDRIEU, Louisiana

JOHN EDWARDS, North Carolina

MARIA CANTWELL, Washington

JEAN CARNAHAN, Missouri

CHRISTOPHER S. BOND, Missouri

CONRAD BURNS, Montana

ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah

OLYMPIA J. SNOWE, Maine

MICHAEL ENZI, Wyoming

PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois

MIKE CRAPO, Idaho

GEORGE ALLEN, Virginia

JOHN ENSIGN, Nevada

PATRICIA R. FORBES, Democratic Staff Director and Chief Counsel

EMILIA DISANTO, Republican Staff Director

PAUL H. COOKSEY, Republican Chief Counsel

(III)

CONTENTS

OPENING STATEMENTS

Page

Kerry, The Honorable John F., Chairman, Committee on Small Business

and Entrepreneurship, and a United States Senator from Massachusetts .... 1

Bond, The Honorable Christopher S., Ranking Member, Committee on Small

Business and Entrepreneurship, and a United States Senator from Missouri ....................................................................................................................... 4

Cleland, The Honorable Max, a United States Senator from Georgia ................ 13

Bennett, The Honorable Robert F., a United States Senator from Utah ............ 15

Enzi, The Honorable Michael B., a United States Senator from Wyoming ........ 15

WITNESS TESTIMONY

Barreto, Hector V., Jr., administrator, U.S. Small Business Administration,

Washington, D.C. ................................................................................................. 4

Sullivan, Thomas S., nominee to be Chief Counsel for Advocacy, U.S. Small

Business Administration, Washington, D.C. ..................................................... 22

ALPHABETICAL LISTING OF STATEMENTS AND MATERIAL SUBMITTED

Barreto, Hector V., Jr.

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 4

Bennett, The Honorable Robert F.

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 15

Bond, The Honorable Christopher S.

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 4

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 10

Cleland, The Honorable Max

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 13

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 14

Cantwell, The Honorable Maria

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 66

Enzi, The Honorable Michael

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 15

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 16

Kerry, The Honorable John F.

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 1

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 19

Nomination and confirmation forms for Mr. Sullivan ................................... 67

Sullivan, Thomas S.

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 22

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 30

Resume and bio ................................................................................................ 38

Answers to Committee questions .................................................................... 40

LETTERS FOR THE RECORD

Brand, Stanley M., Frulla, David E., Brand & Frulla, Washington, D.C. .......... 48

Davis, Tom, Tom Davis Associates, LLC, Washington, D.C. ............................... 50

Faris, Jack, president & CEO, National Federation of Independent Business,

Washington, D.C. ................................................................................................. 51

George, Scott, Mid America Dental and Hearing Center, Mt. Vernon, MO ....... 52

Josten, R. Bruce, executive vice president for governmental affairs, United

States Chamber of Commerce, Washington, D.C. ............................................. 53

Page

IV

Kennedy, The Honorable Edward M., United States Senator from Massachusetts, Washington, D.C. ....................................................................................... 54

McCracken, Todd, president, National Small Business United, Washington,

D.C. ........................................................................................................................ 55

McGuirk, Dennis, president, IPC, The Association Connecting Electronic Industries, Washington, D.C. .................................................................................. 56

Morrison, James, Ph.D., president, Small Business Exporters Association,

Washington, D.C. ................................................................................................. 57

Regan, Grace Cotter, executive director, Boston College Alumni Association,

Newton, MA .......................................................................................................... 58

Satagaj, John S., president and general counsel, Small Business Legislative

Counsel, Washington, D.C. .................................................................................. 59

Steger, Wilbur A., president, CONSAD Research Corporation, Pittsburgh,

PA .......................................................................................................................... 61

Swain, Frank S., Baker and Daniels, Washington, D.C. ...................................... 62

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(1)

NOMINATION OF THOMAS M. SULLIVAN TO

BE CHIEF COUNSEL FOR ADVOCACY AT THE

U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2001

UNITED STATES SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP,

Washington, D.C.

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:51 a.m., in room

SR–428A, Russell Senate Office Building, the Honoable John F.

Kerry (Chairman of the Committee) presiding.

Present: Senators Kerry, Levin, Wellstone, Cleland, Bond, Bennett, Enzi, Allen, and Ensign.

OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JOHN F. KERRY,

CHAIRMAN, SENATE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND

ENTREPRENEURSHIP, AND A UNITED STATES SENATOR

FROM MASSACHUSETTS

Chairman KERRY. The hearing will come to order.

I do want to raise a couple of issues for the Administrator, who

I appreciate being here, but who I gather has gone downstairs for

a moment. So I will wait until he gets back up here and begin the

process of introducing our nominee and the formal part of the hearing itself.

My apologies to all parties for the delay in proceeding. What we

had, as I am sure you can imagine, is an important meeting of Senators with the Sergeant at Arms and the FBI personnel and health

personnel and others with respect to yesterday’s incident. It was

important for all of us to be there.

This morning we are having a hearing on Mr. Thomas Sullivan

to serve as the Chief Counsel for Advocacy at the SBA. I am particularly delighted to welcome him here, and members of his family. His mother, Mary Kaye Sullivan I have not met. There she is.

Welcome, we are delighted to have you.

She hails from Wellesley, Massachusetts; his brother, Greg Sullivan of Newton; and his fiancee, Ms. Juliane Carter. We are delighted to welcome all of you.

Let me just say that the fact that your mother is from Wellesley,

and your family from Massachusetts, and you too, will serve you

extraordinarily well here today.

[Laughter.]

Chairman KERRY. This is a very important position. Witness the

fact that it is a nomination by the President of the United States

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and it does require confirmation of the U.S. Senate. It is a job with

an important mission, of helping to really facilitate the ability of

small businesses to be able to reach us and to meld the policies of

the Administration, whoever’s administration it is, and the small

business community itself.

It has a wide scope of authority and responsibility. We created

it to lighten the regulatory load as well as to try to facilitate the

implementation of the Regulatory Flexibility Act and the Small

Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act. So Mr. Sullivan,

these are important jobs and I am not going to go through all of

the aspects of the job except to say that this is a position, when

properly filled, that really facilitates the ability of small business

to do its job, and frankly facilitates the relationship between us,

the SBA, and the small business community. So properly administered, it has an enormous ability to be positive.

Now I need to raise an issue that regrettably was not going to

be part of this hearing at all, and it is really a sidebar, Mr. Sullivan, to your nomination. But I want to talk directly to the Administrator for a minute.

Mr. Administrator, I’m delighted you are here to support this important nomination. I think Mr. Sullivan is a very fine candidate

and I think he is going to make an excellent advocate for small

business and I am confident we are going to facilitate his confirmation, and I certainly pledge to do that.

But I want to raise a couple of serious issues with you, with respect to where we stand in our relationship, the relationship of this

Committee and the Congress with the SBA and the Administration. As you know, Mr. Barreto, small businesses across the country are literally dying for help in the aftermath of the September

11th attacks. Thousands of people have lost their jobs because, No.

1, business generically is bad; and No. 2, there has been a tremendous fall off of the spin-off businesses that are affected by September 11th.

As you also know, Senator Bond and I, together, in a bipartisan

way, worked with all of the community. We did what this legislature is supposed to do at its best, which is reach out. We held a

series of conference calls with staff because we had trouble with

people not able to fly across the country. So we facilitated it in

modern ways.

We introduced the American Small Business Emergency Relief

and Recovery Act. It has broad support. It was introduced with the

support of all the Democrats of this Committee and the majority

of the Republican members. I think there were only two people who

were not finally part of it. In the Senate as a whole, we now have

43 co-sponsors, almost half the Senate. I mean, I would be amazed

if this is not a vote of 100 Senators, if it was taken to a vote.

In addition to that, it was drafted with the input of small business organizations, trade associations, SBA’s lending and counseling partners through more than 30 meetings and conference

calls. It is a good bill. It does good for people.

Despite the fact that I invited the Administration, through you,

to personally be involved in this effort weeks ago, despite the fact

that we made four separate requests for the Agency to work with

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us, we have never received any word whatsoever. No cooperation,

and no input.

Yesterday, just as our bill was being cleared to be voted out of

the U.S. Senate by unanimous consent, what happens? The Administration asks the Republican leadership to put a hold on the bill

so it cannot come up for a vote. The Administration then calls to

tell my chief of staff that they have to put a hold on the bill because tomorrow the Administration is going to publish some regulations to expand the disaster loan program to the whole country.

The implication being that this partial remedy of expanding the

disaster loan somehow meets the need of the broad assistance provided through the bill Senator Bond and I and others have introduced.

Now I am pleased that the Administration is finally seeing the

importance of trying to do something for small business, but after

refusing to work with the Committee, a month has gone by. Now

we have a reaction that, in the judgment of many of us, simply

does not do the job that we have intended to do. Yet, the Administration is trying to block what we have intended to do, even though

it has the majority support of the U.S. Senate and would fly

through the Congress.

Now I am not going to go through all of the story of what small

business is. We talk about it all the time, about how half the workers in the private sector are in small businesses.

But let me just point out to you a couple of things in one industry alone, and that is the business of chauffeured ground transportation across the country. That industry used to employ about

160,000 people a month ago. Since September 11, they have laid

off approximately 80,000 people. Fifty percent, half the jobs are

gone.

Now that is one of many industries in trouble. Again, I could

pose the question about the jobs that might have been saved if we

had moved sooner on this in a cooperative fashion. I do not know

what the Administration is waiting for, before it recognizes that is

a serious problem. One hundred percent layoffs? I do not know

what the measurement is that triggers a response.

But I have received nothing in writing. I have received no personal telecommunication, and I do not think Senator Bond has,

that has engaged us in a way that says why do you not do this?

Or why do you not do that? Or perhaps we ought to change this,

and then we would willingly support this.

But let me tell you why I think there is a big difference between

what you are now poised to say you are going to do by regulation

versus what we wanted to do legislatively. I do not think what you

are doing is going to restore confidence in the markets at all, simply declaring emergency disaster loan assistance.

Second, it is not clear at all that it is going to reach enough people that need loan assistance. It does nothing for those businesses

needing help with Federal contracts delayed or suspended, or those

needing business counseling on how to stay afloat after the attacks.

Third, you have chosen to rely on a program that was drastically

cut in your own budget this year.

Fourth, it is my understanding that the Administration does not

intend to request additional funding for September 11 disaster

4

loans, so there is going to be a gap between what you are offering

and what you are able to offer. That is frustrating because we

thought you had finally come to the point of understanding that we

need to help these small businesses at this point.

And last, why would you choose to rely on the most expensive

program in the SBA to deliver assistance? If you had worked with

the Committee here we could have tailored the SBA loans program

to help small businesses in ways that would cost less. For instance,

it costs about $17 to $20 per $100 to make a disaster loan. It costs

a little more than $1 to make a loan from the 7(a) program. It costs

zero, nothing to make a loan out of the 504 program. Those are the

ways in which we were trying to approach this issue.

So Mr. Barreto, I think it is pretty important, from my perspective, to try to clarify this so we can proceed forward here in good

faith, which is the way we certainly approach this.

Let me turn to Senator Bond for his comment, and then we will

ask you to respond.

OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CHRISTOPHER S.

BOND, A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM MISSOURI

Senator BOND. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Let me just say that I agree with Senator Kerry. I was very disturbed to learn that the measure that we had crafted on a bipartisan basis, and continually sought the input from the SBA and

OMB staff, we wind up as we are about to pass it, the House is

primed to pass it, then the OMB has asked that the leadership put

a hold on it.

Frankly, I find it a little disingenuous. I have asked the Republican leadership to bring S. 1499 up as soon as possible, because I

do believe that we can still work together on it. We need to make

sure we have the best assistance available.

It truly is disturbing to me that all the time we thought we were

working together, asking for input, we find out not at the 11th

hour, but 11:59, that the Administration has chosen to go a different way and seeks to block our effort. That is a real problem and

I hope that we have learned that that is not the way to make

things happen.

So with that, Mr. Chairman, do you want to have the Administrator respond?

Chairman KERRY. It may be that the Administrator wants to respond.

Senator BOND. Then I want to say one or two things about Mr.

Sullivan, very briefly.

Chairman KERRY. Absolutely. He can respond and then I will

recognize you again.

STATEMENT OF HECTOR V. BARRETO, ADMINISTRATOR,

U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION

Mr. BARRETO. Thank you very much.

Chairman Kerry, Senator Bond, Senator Bennett and the other

members of the Small Business Committee, thank you for inviting

me to appear before you to introduce Tom Sullivan as the President’s nominee for Chief Counsel for the Office of Advocacy. Before

5

I introduce Tom, with your permission, I would like to discuss the

status of our response to the September 11th tragedy.

The Administration’s primary concern has been to address the

immediate needs of the most affected by the tragedy at ground zero

and the Pentagon. The President, with the support of the American

people and the world community has committed to fight a war

against terrorism. We are fighting that war on many levels. The

President has vowed to bring the evildoers to justice while restoring confidence and prosperity to the American people.

The Administration knows that a key factor in economic prosperity is a strong small business community, and we can all be

proud of our Administration’s response to the victims of the disaster at ground zero. SBA staff is assisting disaster victims at nine

locations. We have deployed approximately 94 people in the New

York City area, and an additional 205 people at our Niagara Falls

district office. We also have several of our disaster loan experts

from offices from around the country temporarily assigned to New

York to provide additional support to that area.

We have worked on getting disaster relief information to those

who need it. To that end, we have contacted all elected officials in

the New York City area to provide them with information about

the SBA’s program by phone, e-mail, and regular mail. Our staff

has been canvassing the neighborhoods to talk to the small business owners suffering from this tragedy in order to inform them

about SBA assistance. We have also provided Chinese and Spanishspeaking translators to assist in that effort.

SBA has directly assisted 12,000 individuals and businesses with

loan applications. We have approved 346 disaster loans totaling

$36 million with an average loan size of $100,000.

The hard work of the Administration and the Agency has not

gone unnoticed. We have a disaster team that I am honored to

work with. As we have grown to expect, they have gone above and

beyond in their effort to provide relief to small businesses in the

fastest and most effective means possible. We have received many

compliments on the speed and effectiveness of our response. Governor Pataki and Mayor Guiliani, as well as our legislative leaders,

have commented on our excellent work at the SBA.

I think I was most touched, though, when one of our loan recipients in New York said that we are the most ‘‘humane agency’’ in

the Government. That is quite a compliment and also quite a

charge to live up to. We intend to live up to that charge.

In addition to the compliments, we have also heard requests. The

requests are that we expand economic injury recovery beyond

ground zero. We have heard these requests from our legislative

partners.

As Senator Kerry mentioned, Senator Bond, we have also spoken

with Congressman Velasquez. Through hearings that Chairman

Manzullo of the House Small Business Committee held.

We have heard from Governors from across the Nation requesting that we assist small businesses in their States. We have also

heard from small business industry representatives, and small

business owners themselves.

I want you to know that the SBA has heard that message and

the Administration has heard that message, and we are working

6

together to find the most effective and efficient method to assist

small businesses.

The SBA’s programs have evolved over the years to meet these

needs. The SBA’s disaster assistance loan program is the primary

Federal program for funding recovery for private sector disaster

victims. This program offers a low-interest rate loan, not to exceed

4 percent, as compared to non-disaster loans which are at 5 percent, 6 percent, or sometimes a greater percentage rate. The term

of those loans can be for as long as 30 years, providing greater

flexibility to small business owners, especially at this time when

they need it the most.

We believe the economic injury recovery loan addresses precisely

the type of injury that Congress considered when it developed this

product. And we have been working on a proposal with the Administration. Through the expansion of a recovery proposal, we would

(A), expand recovery to small businesses located outside of ground

zero through our existing disaster loan program. (B), we would provide loans to businesses that have been directly injured by the September 11th event, and the Federal actions taken as a result of

those events. And (C), we can accomplish the expansion through a

change to our regulations. By making a regulatory change instead

of a legislative change, we can provide the swiftest and most costeffective and efficient response to small business.

We continue to work with the Administration to refine this proposal and we hope that we will have a more definitive statement

with respect to this aspect of the economic recovery shortly.

At this time, it gives me great pleasure to introduce Tom Sullivan, the President’s nominee for Chief Counsel for the Office of

Advocacy. Part of my commitment, when I appeared before you for

my own confirmation, was to work with the President to put the

right people in key positions at the SBA, so that we have the best

team available to meet the needs of small businesses.

I believe Tom Sullivan is the best qualified person for Chief

Counsel for Advocacy. His experience at the National Federation of

Independent Business Owners demonstrates his commitment to

small business. His work as regulatory policy counsel put Government agencies on notice that the hundreds of thousands of members of the NFIB needed the Government to be more responsive to

the unique nature of small business.

Prior to his tenure at NFIB, Tom worked at the EPA and at the

Justice Department. This experience will prove to be invaluable as

he works to ensure that all Government agencies help small business to succeed rather than bury them under the mandates and paperwork.

Mr. Chairman, I fully support Tom’s nomination and look forward to working with him in supporting small business throughout

our Nation. Thank you.

Chairman KERRY. Thank you, Mr. Barreto. I am going to go back

to Senator Bond in a moment, but let me come back, if we can. Essentially, the statement you just gave is a prepared statement and

not, frankly, a full answer to the question that Senator Bond and

I asked.

In many ways, what you are telling the Committee indirectly,

without quite answering my question directly, is that you are simVerDate 11-MAY-2000 12:12 Aug 22, 2002 Jkt 080015 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\SBA\80015.TXT SSC1 PsN: SSC1
7

ply going to stick by the disaster loan and that is it, nothing more?

You do not intend to work with us and that is where we are; is

that correct?

Mr. BARRETO. No, sir.

Chairman KERRY. Is it fair to say that you did not really address

our question?

Mr. BARRETO. Well, I hope that my statement articulated what

the response of the SBA has been, not only to the disaster——

Chairman KERRY. I think you have done a laudable job. I am not

here to question whether at ground zero you have been present. I

am glad you have, and I think you have done a laudable job. That

is not the issue here.

But this is much broader across the country than just ground

zero. What we are talking about is the American response. You do

not have enough people. You do not have enough loan officers or

capacity or money in the disaster program to address the needs of

the Nation.

That is what we are trying to do. We are trying to kick all small

business in to gear here and provide the capacity to sort of privatize out, if you will, the ability to be able to meet the response.

That is how you do it through those other programs.

I guess the question is, again, why is the Administration blocking

our bipartisan effort to do that?

Mr. BARRETO. Senator, as we discussed when we met, we have

received numerous proposals for response. One of the things that

we are clear about is that there is an outpouring of commitment

and care for small businesses across the country. As I have mentioned to you, we have received no less than six proposals from

Congress, industry, representatives, Governors. We have taken a

very serious look at those proposals, and it has taken us a little

while to go through those and compare the provisions of those different proposals.

The reg change that I described is not to replace any of those

other efforts. But one of the things that I know that you are committed to, and this Committee is committed to, is how do we help

small business on a national basis in the quickest, most effective,

most efficient manner possible?

Chairman KERRY. We have designed that and we have had no

input from you to the contrary. We have worked with our House

colleagues and they are prepared to pass the bill, too.

We also have reached out to Governors and to the various trade

associations and interested parties. I am sure they are not communicating one thing to you and one thing to us with respect to these

needs.

Mr. BARRETO. One of the things that we wanted to be very clear

about when we looked into this reg change is to make sure that our

folks that we have in our disaster team were prepared to look at

this and to respond to this on a nationwide level. We have gotten

assurances from our disaster folks that they will be able to do this,

that we have the right personnel, that we will be able to respond

to these small business needs on a nationwide level.

One of the things that we are also very glad about is that these

loans are for 4 percent, and sometimes less than 4 percent, over a

8

30-year term. For a lot of the small businesses that are hurting

right now, that is a very, very important proposal for them.

Chairman KERRY. I do not question that. It is a good one and if

it is that good, the question is then begged why you cut the amount

of money available for it in the budget. But that having happened,

we are now trying to stopgap it and make up for the fact that there

is a limited pool there. So we have to do more than just that.

I would like to find a way, like Senator Bond, I would like to get

this thing passed. It is 1 month later. A lot of these companies,

their credit cannot be extended. They have got to make a decision.

Are they going to stay alive or are they not? They cannot afford to

sit around while the U.S. Congress is bickering, which incidentally,

we are not.

Now if you have a difference with this bill I would like you to

come back this afternoon as the Administration and tell us what

it is. We will sit there and work with you. We are prepared to work

with you. We haven’t even heard from you.

We would like to pass it. I do not know, Senator Bond, if you

think there is a better way to try to do it?

Senator BOND. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Administrator, I think we are

talking at two different levels. Nobody disagrees with your praise

for the work that your people have done on the ground. There may

be things you can do by regulation. But we have listened to all the

groups, we have responded to our constituents, and we have come

together on a bipartisan basis, as I think we have emphasized this

Committee works. We put together what we think is a sound, bipartisan solution. We have asked SBA staff, we have asked OMB

for their comments on it. Nothing.

Then we find, when the House is ready to pass it, we are ready

to pass it, you put a hold on it. Nobody has told us what is wrong

with the bill. If you have got a better way to do it, do not keep it

a secret. This is a really shaky start, because we are ready, we

have been ready to work with you on a bipartisan basis, which is

the way we get things done around here.

I hope that this is an experience we will not experience again.

Somebody said experience is what you get when you expected to

get something else. I expected to get something else in working

with the SBA.

With that, I think we have made our point. At least I hope we

have.

Mr. BARRETO. Yes, you have, Senator. I just want to State that

our relationship and our working relationship is something that we

appreciate very much and we are committed to continue working

with you.

I agree with you that the timing of this regulation could have

been a lot better. We will work with you to make sure that this

information is passing back and forth in a very timely basis. I

think that we are in a truly unique situation. The SBA has never

had to respond to a disaster of this type. There has never been a

disaster of this type.

One thing that I am clear about is that there is tremendous commitment from this Committee, from the House Committee, from

the business organizations that I have been meeting with, and

leaders all across the country, to do the right thing for small busiVerDate 11-MAY-2000 12:12 Aug 22, 2002 Jkt 080015 PO 00000 Frm 00014 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\SBA\80015.TXT SSC1 PsN: SSC1
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ness. I want you to know that we are committed to the same thing,

and I thank you for the opportunity to be here and to make this

statement.

Chairman KERRY. Mr. Administrator, this will be the final word

on it and then we will move to the Sullivan nomination. It is not

the timing of the regulation. I think we could care less about the

timing of the regulation. That is your right and prerogative and

more power to you if you are going to facilitate the extension of

those loans. We are all for it.

It is the blocking of our bill at the same time, which sends a completely different message. One for the other. That has got to stop.

You have got to either lift that or tell us what you need changed

immediately because there are a lot of other tools here in the U.S.

Senate and there are a lot of other things the Administration needs

to move forward on. We are intent on trying to get this help to

business people.

As Senator Bond just said, if you have a better way to do it, terrific. There is no pride of authorship here. We think what we have

is pretty good, but if you can improve on it, terrific. But I am not

going to have a dark of night hold at the same time as people are

talking about cooperating. That is unacceptable.

Let me let Senator Bond speak.

Senator BOND. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I will abbreviate my

comments but I do want to extend a warm welcome on a cloudy

day to Tom Sullivan, his fiancee, family members, and friends.

I think he is a very qualified candidate for the position of Chief

Counsel of Advocacy. His experience and track record representing

small businesses during his years at the NFIB make him superbly

qualified to handle the important role.

Tom, I really look forward to working closely with you as you

tackle the hard work of representing vigorously the views and interests of small business.

I am going to put in one very brief plug for a measure that I

have introduced with respect to the Regulatory Flexibility Act and

the SBREFA requirements. GAO has told us that the term significant economic impact to a substantial number of small entities

need to be clearly defined. I have introduced a measure called

Agency Accountability Act, AAA, which would give the Chief Counsel the power to conduct a rulemaking to define those critical

terms. The Act would also increase the list of agencies required to

conduct small business review panels. We think the process is

working well but can work better.

We look forward to working with you on that. I am confident that

we can do a great deal for small business.

Mr. Chairman, I have to apologize and excuse myself, because I

had scheduled another meeting in just a few minutes. But we look

forward to working with Mr. Sullivan.

[The prepared statement of Senator Bond follows.]

10

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Chairman KERRY. Thank you very much.

Let me just say to the Members of the Committee, I promise I

want to try to expedite this nomination. It will probably, just because of the complications in our schedules this morning, with everything that is going on, be hard to get the quorum here now. But

I will try to convene a quorum off the floor of the Senate at the

first vote available. If all members could be alert to that, and we

will try to have a vote in the President’s Room off the Senate floor

at the appropriate time.

Senator Cleland.

OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE MAX CLELAND,

A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM GEORGIA

Senator CLELAND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would just like to thank you and the Ranking Member for your

introduction of S. 1499, the American Small Business Emergency

Relief and Recovery Act of 2001. I do think this is a hallmark piece

of legislation which will go a long way toward assisting the small

businesses which were directly and indirectly affected by the

events of September 11th.

Congratulations on that, Mr. Chairman. As an original cosponsor, I look forward to its speedy action before the full Senate.

We are in an emergency. We are, I think, expected by the American people to act for their recovery in a very judicious and expedited way. So I endorse the concern of the Chair and Ranking

Member about why this legislation was put on hold by the Administration. I look forward to its quick, early and easy passage.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

[The prepared statement of Senator Cleland follows.]

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Chairman KERRY. Thank you very much, Senator Cleland.

Senator Bennett.

OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE ROBERT F.

BENNETT, A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM UTAH

Senator BENNETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was hoping to

make this comment before the Administrator left, but Mr. Sullivan,

if you would carry it back to him, my only comment in listening

to this exchange goes back to what my professors used to tell me

in college, which was read the question. You may understand all

there is about the subject, but read the question.

In my view, the Administrator did not hear what the Chairman

was saying and he was answering a different question. He was answering it very well, but it was the wrong question. So as you deal

with this Committee, listen to what the Chairman says and respond specifically to the Chairman and we will not have any problems.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman KERRY. Thank you, Senator Bennett.

Senator Enzi.

OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE MICHAEL ENZI,

A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM WYOMING

Senator ENZI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just ask unanimous consent that a copy of my statement be in the record.

Chairman KERRY. Without objection, your full statement will appear in the record.

[The prepared statement of Senator Enzi follows:]

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Chairman KERRY. Mr. Sullivan, you have been well introduced to

events in Washington this morning in ways you probably did not

anticipate, but I certainly reiterate my welcome to you. We are

really delighted to have you here, and I look forward to your testimony.

[The prepared statement of Senator Kerry follows.]

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STATEMENT OF THOMAS S. SULLIVAN, NOMINEE FOR CHIEF

COUNSEL FOR ADVOCACY, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION

Mr. SULLIVAN. Good morning, Chairman Kerry, Senator Bond,

and distinguished members of the Committee. It is an honor to appear before you as the President’s choice to head the U.S. Small

Business Administration’s Office of Advocacy.

It is touching to be surrounded by so many of my friends, colleagues in the small business community, and family. I would like

to introduce my mother, Mary Sullivan and my brother Greg Sullivan. They flew down from Boston to share in this incredible honor

for me. My other siblings, Barbara Roehrig in Denver, and BZ

Honan in Marblehead are not able to be here. Last, I would like

to introduce my fiancee, Juliane Carter, and thank her for being

here with me this morning.

I would like to briefly summarize my background and outline

some exciting opportunities that await me if I am confirmed as

Chief Counsel for Advocacy. In addition, Mr. Chairman, I ask that

my complete statement be included in the record.

Chairman KERRY. So ordered.

Mr. SULLIVAN. I did not grow up in a small business. My dad was

an attorney and my mom worked in hospital administration in

Waltham and Mt. Auburn hospitals. I did grow up in the shadow

of admirable public service. I am proud of my mother’s devotion to

making the town of Wellesley, Massachusetts a good place to raise

a family. Her countless hours of civic meetings and long nights at

our locally-elected legislative body, the Wellesley Town Meeting,

rubbed off on me.

While in law school, I followed in her footsteps and was elected

to represent our neighbors in my precinct at the Wellesley Town

Meeting. This fascination of public service and policy development

led me to Washington, D.C.

My small business perspective comes from the past several years

working for NFIB. My view of what it is like to own and run a

small business has been shaped by my interaction with people like

Barbara Williams, who owned a small restaurant in Gettysburg,

Pennsylvania and Mike Nobis, who runs a small printing company

in Quincy, Illinois. Both Barbara and Mike fell prey to the unfairness of a Federal law that was supposed to clean up polluted sites,

but instead sometimes victimized innocent small businesses.

Bringing their perspective to Washington is what NFIB does

best, and through that work I gained a great appreciation for what

it takes to own a small business and how frustrating it can be

when dealing with rigid Federal laws that oftentimes ignore the

consequences in small business.

I have not been able to help all those small business owners who

have called or who I have met while working at NFIB. What is so

tremendously exciting for me today is the opportunity I have, if

confirmed, to help thousands, if not millions, more small employers.

How can the Office of Advocacy help millions of small employers?

I see three distinct ways. First, Advocacy can recognize and improve the human capital of the office. SBA’s Office of Advocacy

hosts some of the finest public servants in the government. Devoted

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economists, attorneys, and staff in the States and here in Washington have given the office the credibility and stature it deserves.

Recognizing and highlighting the talent in the office is the first opportunity faced by the new Chief Counsel.

It is not enough for the fine work produced by Advocacy to be

simply put on a website. Academic institutions and think tanks

across the country deserve to benefit from the wealth of information and expertise the Office of Advocacy has to offer. Staff from

Advocacy should be the resource for small business policy formation.

Second, the Office of Advocacy should stand on the principle that

the formulation of sound policy is based on solid information. My

goal, if confirmed, is to continue to bring Advocacy’s research to the

attention of decisionmakers here in Washington and bring renewed

emphasis on getting that information outside the beltway.

Advocacy’s quality work belongs in the hands of every scholar who

is studying small business and in every State legislator’s hands

who needs information before voting on bills that affect small business. The research products coming out of the Office of Advocacy

belong in academia and in the halls of governments across the

country.

Third, Advocacy’s involvement early in the regulatory process

can improve the culture in regulatory agencies. Laws like the Regulatory Flexibility Act and the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act have produced results. The Office of Advocacy

estimated cost savings of $3.4 billion last year as a direct result of

differences made in regulatory policy as it affects small business.

In real small business terms, $3.4 billion equates to an additional 1.3 million employees working in small businesses, receiving

employer-sponsored health care. That is a positive sign and proof

that Advocacy’s role in the regulatory process is a critical one. Advocacy has helped ensure that small business saved money. Money

that could be used to hire additional employees, buy new or upgrade existing computers, or provide employees with health care

coverage. Most importantly, these cost savings were achieved without sacrificing environmental protection or worker safety.

Bringing the voice of small business into agency deliberations

early in the process makes a difference. Advocacy’s goal should be

to convince agencies that it makes a positive difference.

Highlighting the human capital within SBA’s Office of Advocacy,

bringing their research outside the beltway, and helping change

the regulatory culture of Federal agencies and departments provide

a framework under which small business can benefit from Advocacy’s success.

These challenges may seem monumental, but they are worth it.

The confidence of President Bush, SBA Administrator Hector

Barreto, this Committee, and my friends and colleagues, has impressed upon me what an honor this nomination truly is. If confirmed, I look forward to working with you to keep the entrepreneurial spirit of this country alive and well, through an Office of

Advocacy devoted to ensuring a bright future for small business.

That concludes my statement and I would be happy to answer

any questions the Committee may have.

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Chairman KERRY. Thank you very much, Mr. Sullivan. It was a

good statement and I appreciate your articulation of the possibilities of your job.

Let me just ask you, if I may, a number of pro forma questions

before I ask you a few substantive ones about policies, et cetera.

First of all, is there any conflict of interest that you are aware of

that might prevent you from properly being able to carry out your

responsibilities?

Mr. SULLIVAN. There are none, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman KERRY. In order to be able to make that statement,

have you had to divest yourself of any interest of any kind that the

Committee should be aware of? Or is there anything you need to

recuse yourself from in order to perform these responsibilities?

Mr. SULLIVAN. I have signed an ethics agreement with the senior

ethics official at the SBA that require me to recuse myself from involvement with the NFIB Legal Foundation for 1 year. Other than

that, there are no other situations that I should bring before the

Committee.

Chairman KERRY. What is the theory of the timeframe on the

NFIB Foundation?

Mr. SULLIVAN. Well, I am currently employed as executive director of the NFIB Legal Foundation. It is my understanding, after

consulting with the head ethics official at SBA, that a 1-year

recusal from contact with my current employer is the standards

ethics agreement.

Chairman KERRY. I was just curious as to how they arrived at

the 1 year. I understand what they are trying to do. I assume they

feel that after 1 year you are purged of any bad or good instincts

you may have?

[Laughter.]

Mr. SULLIVAN. I believe that the SBA senior ethics official was

acting within the guidelines that he is comfortable with. I want to

assure the Committee that as situations arise where there are

questions of how to conduct my activities, I will consult regularly

with the senior ethics official.

Chairman KERRY. Fair enough. So it is essentially a discretionary fixing of the time period?

Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes, sir.

Chairman KERRY. Do you also agree that you will appear before

any duly constituted committee of the U.S. Congress when requested, if confirmed? That any member of your staff appropriately

asked to appear will also do so?

Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes, Mr. Chairman. It is my intention to appear

before committees of Congress as requested. It is also my full intention to engage regularly with both sides of the aisle on the

House and Senate on a regular basis on issues of importance to

small business.

Chairman KERRY. Second, do you agree that you will yourself

reply to any requests for information of any duly constituted committee of Congress and/or your staff also will do so?

Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman KERRY. Thank you very much.

You have been appointed by the President, introduced by the Administrator, and that is the normal course of events. That is approVerDate 11-MAY-2000 12:12 Aug 22, 2002 Jkt 080015 PO 00000 Frm 00030 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\SBA\80015.TXT SSC1 PsN: SSC1
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priate. But how do you guarantee to the interested small business

community that in this role, and it is a question I would ask not

necessarily of you but of any ‘‘independent’’ office of advocacy for

any particular agency, how you guarantee that level of independence that is so critical to the credibility of the office? And frankly,

to its functioning?

Mr. SULLIVAN. How do I guarantee the independence of the Office of Advocacy? I think first, I want to assure the Committee that

I am answerable foremost to the views of small business owners

that I am able to represent to the best of my ability if confirmed

as Chief Counsel.

As far as procedural independence, the Office of Advocacy is

unique in the sense that while housed at the SBA, the Office of Advocacy has independence from testimony and opinions stated before

congressional committees that do not necessarily have to be cleared

through the Office of Management and Budget clearance process.

The other way that procedurally the office has a statutory level

of independence is the independent hiring authority. Through those

levels of independence, the Office is able to both maintain its independence to effectively advocate for small business, while at the

same time, working within a partnership with the Administrator

and the Administration to best represent small business owners.

Chairman KERRY. Do you feel prepared to tell either the OMB

or the Administrator or the White House itself that you think they

are on the wrong course, if they happen to be, in terms of small

business interest?

Mr. SULLIVAN. It is my understanding that Administrator

Barreto fully expects from me, if confirmed as Chief Counsel, to

represent to him and to the Administration the unbiased views of

small business owners. To the extent those conflict with policy decisions underway or already made by the Administration or Hector

Barreto, that is an understanding that he is willing to deal with

on a daily basis, as long as I am presenting him the independent,

unbiased view.

Chairman KERRY. What about the resources within the Office?

Have you had a chance to analyze it and make a judgment as to

whether you have the resources necessary to perform the functions?

Mr. SULLIVAN. It is my understanding, Mr. Chairman, and this

is elaborated in my written statement, that the Office of Advocacy

has the best and brightest. Through that, through recognizing, I

believe I referred to in my written statement, the human capital

in that office, that will encourage future best and brightest to come

and work at the Office of Advocacy.

To the extent that I have undergone a thorough review of responsibilities and personnel, I have not. That certainly is a priority,

once in place. I can assure the Chairman that if there are gaps in

the resources needed or additional help that can be done legislatively, I will come before the Committee and make those requests

and engage in a dialog to make sure that the Office of Advocacy

can accomplish its mission with the resources that it has.

Chairman KERRY. So you are going to make that judgment as

you go down the road, essentially?

Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

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Chairman KERRY. The small business community of the country

is a diverse community. We have come, in this Committee, sort of

by consensus almost always—again we work very much on a bipartisan basis. Over the years we have developed fairly strong support

for some programs which, on occasion, are ideologically hot spots,

and there have been pressures. Now you are coming from one business entity that, on occasion, has clashed with the concept of SBA

itself. We have received some inquiries about that.

Obviously, I have grown to be comfortable with that. Others on

the Committee, people are prepared to proceed forward. But help

those people who might worry that something they fought for over

10, 15, 20 years which is now a part of the SBA program will also

be represented by you and advocated for by you?

Mr. SULLIVAN. Mr. Chairman, the organization that is my current employer, NFIB, has historically prioritized for small business

owners functions within SBA. When asked policy positions or votes

on key pieces of legislation, NFIB only represents the consensus

views of its membership of 600,000 small business owners. So to

the extent that there have been issues related to the functioning

of SBA, my understanding that NFIB has asked Congress to

prioritize within SBA because that is what the 600,000 members

of NFIB have told the organization is their position.

It is also my further understanding that historically NFIB has

prioritized the Office of Advocacy as an extremely valuable resource for small business owners. So that, in part, makes it such

an honor for me to appear before the Committee this morning, recognizing in my current employer how important the Office of Advocacy is to small business directly.

With regards to how I will act as Chief Counsel of Advocacy,

again I would like to assure the Committee that I am absolutely

beholden to the non-biased views of small business owners. That

will determine my policy decisions and directions taken before this

Committee and before different policymakers around the country.

Chairman KERRY. How important is the SBA itself, in your judgment?

Mr. SULLIVAN. I do not know, Mr. Chairman. In answer to the

question of my current position and my current understanding of

SBA again, it has been NFIB’s position to prioritize programs. And

in that prioritization, they have highlighted the effectiveness of the

Office of Advocacy. Senator Bennett did say ‘‘read the question,’’

and I want to be responsive to the Committee. But from a

prioritization perspective, my focal point as one of the best parts

of Government, and the best part certainly within SBA is the Office

of Advocacy.

Chairman KERRY. But stepping outside the Office of Advocacy,

once you are in the Office of Advocacy you are not advocating for

the Office of Advocacy, you are advocating for the interests of small

business. Small business finds the SBA as its primary governmental contact and a very critical linkage on a whole series of programs. The STTR, SBIC, SBIR, 504, so forth, lending.

What does your either analysis or study or experience tell you

about those programs and the SBA’s stewardship of them?

Mr. SULLIVAN. Well Mr. Chairman, I have not conducted analysis

of SBA programs. It is my understanding that the Chief Counsel

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position is charged with bringing the resources, the helpful resources of the Government, to small businesses across the country.

Now to the extent that the helpful parts of Government, whether

it be loan assistance or small business compliance assistance centers housed within the Environmental Protection Agency, or voluntary cooperative compliance systems within OSHA, within Department of Labor, it is my understanding that the Office of Advocacy is charged with making sure that small business owners

across the country have access to those programs, understand and

can use those programs.

So to the extent that there is a governmentwide analysis of what

is actually helpful to small business, it will be my job, if confirmed,

to make sure that small businesses know about the programs that

are helpful, whether it be in SBA or EPA or IRS. That is something

that I am looking forward to if confirmed.

Chairman KERRY. But you have no opinion, as you approach this

job, about the capacity of the SBA itself?

Mr. SULLIVAN. No, I do not, as I approach the job. I know that

the Office of Advocacy does analyze trends and programs governmentwide that are helpful for small employers. I know there is reluctance of the Office of Advocacy to do a self-examination of the

Small Business Administration. If confirmed, I actually would

share that caution, that the Office of Advocacy not look exclusively

at SBA programs to analyze their benefit or detriment to small employers, because then you trend very slowly into the Inspector General function of the Agency.

Chairman KERRY. Well, in the past, the Office of Advocacy has

been deeply involved in making sure that small businesses get

their fair share of Federal procurement. Specifically, that the Small

Business Innovation Research program and technology transfer

programs work well. Is it your intention to stay involved in those

programs and in that effort?

Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Sorry to interrupt. It is my

intention to keep active on those programs.

Chairman KERRY. Whenever you say yes you can interrupt all

you want.

[Laughter.]

Mr. SULLIVAN. Thank you. In particular, the Federal procurement example is a good one to show how the Office of Advocacy can

be successful, because you’ve got the research component of the Office of Advocacy that analyzed Federal procurement trends. That

research showed a disappointing trend as it affects small business.

Then Advocacy didn’t stop there. The Advocacy component of the

office then took that research to the Federal Government, to the

Defense Department and said ‘‘let us think outside of the box to

cure this problem with Federal procurement and small business.’’

It is my understanding they have been very successful in thinking outside the box in getting small business tied into the appropriate ways, into the Defense Department, so that they can get the

percentage of small business involvement higher for Federal procurement. That is a perfect example of one of the strengths of the

Office of Advocacy.

Chairman KERRY. What about the goal of Federal Government

purchasing? We have set a goal of trying to achieve 23 percent of

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goods and services being purchased from small business. Regrettably, we have failed to meet that goal, the Administrations previously, on either party has failed to meet that goal for either

women or small disadvantaged businesses, HUBZones and veteranowned businesses. What do you intend to do to try to make sure

that the Government achieves those goals?

Mr. SULLIVAN. Mr. Chairman, it is my intention, if confirmed, to

continue to work within the Government to impress upon those officials who are in charge of Federal procurement that it makes

sense for the economy to get that percentage of small business involvement up.

Chairman KERRY. Good. We would appreciate that. I think it

does make sense and I think it is an enormously important way to

lift small companies ultimately into big company status and share

some of the benefits of the Federal procurement process.

Should this Committee and the small business community in

general read anything particular in the fact that while at the NFIB

Legal Foundation you filed four amicus briefs, whereas in the

whole history of Advocacy the Office has filed only one amicus

brief? Do you view that as a role you will now assume in the Advocacy Office? Is this a different approach that you have?

Mr. SULLIVAN. Mr. Chairman, my experience as head of the

NFIB Legal Foundation should assure this Committee and others

that I will approach the amicus role in a similar manner. Here is

what I mean. Litigation should be an absolute last resort. It is expensive, it is time consuming and, from a small business owners’

perspective, it can be devastating.

The NFIB acts effectively because it advocates its positions in

State legislatures, here in Congress, and in regulatory agencies.

The idea of filing an amicus brief to represent those views in Federal court is used incredibly sparingly. I would like to urge this

Committee that I will exercise similar restraint in my role as confirmed as Chief Counsel.

The benefit of that office, in regards to litigation, is the cooperative nature of dealing with Federal agencies behind the scenes to

achieve regulatory cost savings with the threat of litigation hanging over all of the parties’ heads. But it is not my intention to exercise that threat of amicus authority to the detriment of valuable

discussions that actually have resulted in significant regulatory

savings over the years.

Chairman KERRY. Thank you, Mr. Sullivan.

Senator Enzi.

Senator ENZI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Once again, I thank

you for bringing this hearing up and the promise of the vote, when

we have the vote later. I think you were most thorough in your

questioning. The only thing you probably left out were those Massachusetts connections that he has.

[Laughter.]

Senator ENZI. All of us on this Committee, of course, because of

the Committee title, are extremely interested in small business. I

may be more interested than any of the other States, because in

Wyoming there is no business that is headquartered in Wyoming

that would meet big business requirements according to our small

business definition. So we are extremely concerned, and not about

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those ones that are up around the 500 employee one, because again

even on ones that come in from out of state, we do not have many

of those.

I try to maintain the definition more down around the person

who owns the business being the one who sweeps the sidewalks,

cleans the toilets, does the accounting, and waits on customers, and

not necessarily in that order.

I do appreciate the efforts that you have made in the past on

SBREFA. Giving people in small business a voice in the regulation

process of the Federal Government, I think, is extremely important, not just from getting the regulation right but making sure

that there is a reflection of the difference between a big business

and a small business when it comes to dealing with these. Also recognizing that if we get it right for small business it usually helps

out big business, too.

I thank you for your willingness to serve in this position and I

really do not have any questions for you. Thank you.

Chairman KERRY. Thank you very much, Senator Enzi. You

should be advised that I paid all the deference I could conceivably

summon up to Massachusetts prior to your arriving here.

Let me just say, as we close, I do not have any further questions.

I thank you for your testimony this morning. Mr. Sullivan, rest assured, you have done well. If I could just say, maybe it is that Jesuit training up there at BC or something. But we are delighted to

try to proceed forward as rapidly as we can. I hope that we can

perhaps report it out of Committee today. It depends a lot on the

floor schedule. But I am confident that quickly this week we should

be able to move it forward.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Sullivan follows:]

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Chairman KERRY. I will leave the record open just for a few more

hours, in case there is anybody else who wants to submit a statement and then we will close it by the time of our next meeting,

whenever that occurs, this afternoon or otherwise.

We stand adjourned. Thank you.

[Whereupon, at 11:51 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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COMMITTEE BUSINESS

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2001

UNITED STATES SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP,

Washington, D.C.

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:15 p.m., in room

216, U.S. Capitol Building, the Honorable John F. Kerry (Chairman of the Committee) presiding.

Present: Senators Kerry, Levin, Harkin, Wellstone, Cleland,

Landrieu, Edwards, Bond, Bennett, Snowe, Enzi, Allen and Ensign.

Chairman KERRY. The Small Business Committee is convened for

the purpose of voting out the nomination of Thomas Sullivan to be

chief counsel for advocacy at the U.S. Small Business Administration. The clerk will call the roll.

The CLERK. Mr. Levin.

Senator LEVIN. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Levin, aye.

Mr. Harkin.

Senator HARKIN. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Harkin, aye.

Mr. Lieberman.

Chairman KERRY. Aye by proxy.

The CLERK. Mr. Lieberman, aye by proxy.

Mr. Wellstone.

Senator WELLSTONE. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Wellstone, aye.

Mr. Cleland.

Senator CLELAND. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Cleland, aye.

Ms. Landrieu.

Senator LANDRIEU. Aye.

The CLERK. Ms. Landrieu, aye.

Mr. Edwards.

Senator EDWARDS. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Edwards, aye.

Ms. Cantwell.

Chairman KERRY. Aye by proxy.

The CLERK. Ms. Cantwell, aye by proxy.

Mrs. Carnahan.

Chairman KERRY. Aye by proxy.

The CLERK. Mrs. Carnahan, aye by proxy.

Mr. Bond.

Senator BOND. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Bond, aye.

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Mr. Burns.

Senator BOND. Aye by proxy.

The CLERK. Mr. Burns, aye by proxy.

Mr. Bennett.

Senator BENNETT. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Bennett, aye.

Ms. Snowe.

Senator SNOWE. Aye.

The CLERK. Ms. Snowe, aye.

Mr. Enzi.

Senator ENZI. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Enzi, aye.

Mr. Fitzgerald.

Senator BOND. Aye by proxy.

The CLERK. Mr. Fitzgerald, aye by proxy.

Mr. Crapo.

Senator BOND. Aye by proxy.

The CLERK. Mr. Crapo, aye by proxy.

Mr. Allen.

Senator ALLEN. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Allen, aye.

Mr. Ensign.

Senator ENSIGN. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Ensign, aye.

Mr. Chairman.

Chairman KERRY. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, aye.

Nineteen ayes, zero nays.

Chairman KERRY. I have letters in support of the nominee to be

included in the record.

[The information referred to follows:]

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Chairman KERRY. Thank you very much.

[Whereupon, at 4:34 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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