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 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 MANUFACTURED HOUSING WORKING GROUP

 Monday, August 4, 2014

 9:04 a.m.

 Department of Energy

 1000 Independence Avenue SW

 Forrestal Building

 Washington, DC 20285

 Reported by: Natalia Thomas

 Capital Reporting Company
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2

3 Eileen Hoffman Javier Ramirez

4 Joseph Hagerman Mark Ezzo

5 Robert Luter, II Lois Starkey

6 Mark Weiss Manuel Santana

7 John Cymbalsky Wayne Gordon

8 Emily Marchetti Ishbel Dickens

9 Emanuel Levy Michael Lubliner

10 David Tompos Keith Dennis

11 Kavita Vaidyanathan Richard Potts

12 Eric Lacey Scott Drake

13 Lowell Ungar Robin Roy

14 John Caskey Stacey Epperson

15 Don Surrena Rick Mendlen

16 Steven Rosenstock Matthew Walker

17 James Martin Edward Barbour

18

19

20

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. HAGERMAN: So let's get started this

3 morning. So first, thanks for joining this first

4 working group meeting for the Manufactured Housing

5 ASRAC charter, to meet the Manufactured Housing

6 ASRAC charter.

7 We're going to change the agenda just

8 slightly. We're going to let Wayne go ahead and

9 talk about ethics real quick; he has to leave us

10 at 9:30, so let's get him out of here.

11 MR. GORDON: My name is Wayne Gordon, I

12 work for the Assistant General Counsel for General

13 Law, her name is Susan Beard. She's also the

14 designated agency ethics official. My office

15 provides ethics advice for the parent committee to

16 this working group, which is the Appliance

17 Standards Rule Making Advisory Committee.

18 So in most situations I'm doing ethics

19 briefings for that organization. When they have

20 special government employees on that group, I have

21 to advise them regarding their federal ethics

22 rules.
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1 Now, as members of the working group,

2 the Federal Advisory Committee Act rules and

3 statutes that are applicable for special

4 government employees, or federal employees, are

5 not applicable to you. You are actually -- you

6 don't have any ethics responsibilities, but one of

7 the things we want to make sure is that you

8 recognize your roles here.

9 As members of the working group you may

10 have access to non-public information, you're only

11 supposed to use that for purposes of your work

12 here. You're not supposed to use it for your own

13 personal benefit or the benefit of your home

14 institutions.

15 We realize that some of you are from

16 subsidiaries of larges institutions. In the

17 context of the work that you're doing for the

18 working group, you're supposed to be only

19 representing your own individual company, and not

20 necessarily your parent company. So that role and

21 responsibility is for you to sort of stay on track

22 and only be representing the interests of the
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1 organization that you're from, not from your

2 parent.

3 From ethics perspective, special

4 government employees have all the rules that are

5 applicable for federal employees, so every once in

6 a while we identify potential conflicts of

7 interest.

8 Here all of you don't have any conflicts

9 of interest because you are straight on point for

10 your home institution. But if there are ethics

11 issues that come up, or if there's something that

12 comes up in the context of your work here that

13 you're concerned about from an appearance

14 perspective, one of the things we're always

15 interested in doing is making sure that we get,

16 particularly in the negotiated rule making, that

17 we get everybody's voice heard, and that there is

18 sort of a true idea of getting to consensus so

19 that when you deliver your report, and you deliver

20 your recommendations up to the parent committee,

21 that it's been thoroughly hashed through at this

22 level.
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1 If there's an ethics issue, or a

2 question comes up that you think needs to be

3 discussed, or needs to have an ethics opinion

4 delivered on, you can talk to Joe and Joe will

5 bring that to my attention, and he'll either do it

6 through John, who is the DFO. He's the designated

7 federal official for the parent committee, ASRAC,

8 and they'll bring to my attention, and we'll sort

9 of walk through and see if there's any corrective

10 action that needs to be taken.

11 But other than that, welcome, and if you

12 have any questions just get in touch with Joe or

13 John.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Thanks, Wayne.

16 First of all can everybody hear me all

17 right? Great.

18 So maybe John Cymbalsky should stand up

19 real quick. So John Cymbalsky is the head of the

20 Appliance Standards Program. That's the John that

21 Wayne was talking about.

22 So first of all, let me just say thank
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1 you for coming out. Thank you for being a part of

2 this working group to get to a consensus standard

3 amongst the industry.

4 I'm just going to quickly read over the

5 ASRAC charter that was issued to the working

6 group. So the purpose of this working group will

7 be to discuss, and if possible reach consensus, on

8 a proposed rule for energy efficiency of

9 manufactured homes as authorized by Section 413 of

10 ISA.

11 The working group shall complete work on

12 a term sheet for a proposed rule by September

13 30th, 2014, or either cease activities of the

14 working group, or request an extension with date

15 certain from the larger parent ASRAC.

16 So we're all here because the newest

17 version of the IACC Code was published, I believe

18 in late June, maybe mid-June, so now we're all

19 here to talk about how we can get manufactured

20 housing up to the 2015 IACC levels, as discussed

21 in the statute.

22 So thank you for being a part of this
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1 working group. We look forward to a very

2 productive day today talking about the ground

3 rules and defining what consensus means, and

4 hearing about the first round of issues that

5 working group will have to consider.

6 So welcome, and if you need anything

7 from me; I think everybody has my email address;

8 it's Joseph.Hagerman@ee.doe.gov.

9 So I want to introduce the facilitators

10 now -- oh, actually sorry, before I go into that,

11 let me get to the most important thing of the day.

12 So the Dunkin Donuts is on the ground floor. It's

13 on the G floor. You just go out to those

14 elevators, press G, and then the doors will open

15 and you'll see a wonderful Dunkin Donuts sign. So

16 that's coffee and donuts; that takes care of that.

17 If we have an emergency, a fire or

18 anything, the nearest stairwell is to our left

19 here. We'll go down that stairwell as a group,

20 hopefully, and then convene outside and make sure

21 we've got everybody, and then we'll proceed as

22 directed.
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1 The restrooms, and everything, are also

2 down the end of the hall to the left. If you go

3 out these doors, you'll see that. There's also a

4 little sub- conference room outside here. If you

5 need to take a break and convene as industry or a

6 group to discuss an issue, you can feel free to

7 walk out there and use that room. Also there's

8 telephones through that kind of entrance here.

9 I think that's about it in terms of

10 logistics. Of course, we'll take a lunch break.

11 There's a wonderful DOE federal cafeteria across

12 the way. If you just show your badge, you can get

13 in, and it's usually just a buffet.

14 Oh, yeah, you also need to always have

15 your badge on or they'll really give you a big

16 hassle. So just always make sure that if you're

17 walking around show your visitor's badge or your

18 government issued ID.

19 All right. So let me introduce the

20 facilitators, Eileen and Javier, they're going to

21 be our main enforcers today to make sure we stay

22 on agenda and get a good dialogue, and go through
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1 the materials that we have to get through. So

2 I'll give it to you all.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Good morning. I'm Eileen

4 Barkas Hoffman, one of the team here of

5 facilitators, and Javier Ramirez, who will also

6 tell you a little bit about himself, but welcome

7 to a negotiated rule making, which for many of you

8 is a new experience. It's not painful or anything,

9 it's actually a way of trying to reach consensus.

10 The agency that we both work for is the

11 Federal Medication and Conciliation Service, which

12 you may or may not have heard of. Right now my

13 boss is trying to resolve some -- a dispute

14 involving the Metropolitan Opera in New York City,

15 and my other boss is out on the West Coast with

16 grain millers trying to deal with that.

17 But what we do in Washington, and with

18 our colleagues, is negotiated rule making and

19 other forms of dispute resolution. Negotiated

20 rule making began in the 1980s and our agency was

21 the very first one to do it in the early 80s;

22 flight duty with the Department of the
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1 Transportation, and actually was a success.

2 I personally have done at least four of

3 these, and they've been very helpful. People

4 reach an agreement that they can live with and

5 actually works through getting a rule better.

6 Hopefully better.

7 Including those of you -- how many flew

8 here? Okay. Well, we're responsible in a way for

9 that decision about who can sit in the exit row.

10 I did a negotiated rule making involving

11 access by disabled individuals to airlines and

12 airports, and we found out that people needed to

13 know how to operate and open that door, so that

14 was one of the results.

15 I also did one involving mandatory pork

16 pricing involving the U.S. Department of

17 Agriculture, and that was the kind of pork that is

18 actually a pig, as opposed to what we in

19 Washington sometimes refer to as pork.

20 But let me just now say that we're

21 really looking forward to working with you, and

22 we'll be doing this a sub-committee, but we may
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1 end up with little groups as well, and you've all

2 dedicated your time today and tomorrow to do this,

3 and we'll also talk about other dates.

4 You also have a packet of material;

5 we'll try to follow the agenda as best we can, and

6 we'll end at 5:00. I notice there's some folks in

7 the back; we even have time at 4:30 for any kind

8 of public questions or comment. So you're

9 involved too and important. But we know you're

10 all very busy people, so we're very appreciative,

11 and this is an important opportunity for everybody

12 here.

13 So with that, I'm just going to turn it

14 over to my colleague, Javier.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Thanks. My name is Javier

16 Ramirez, I'm out of the Chicago Field Office, and

17 like many of you this is actually my first reg neg

18 facilitation. Eileen sold me on that it was not

19 painful, since you mentioned that, so we'll see if

20 she's true on that.

21 I've done a number of facilitations

22 though. We do them on a fairly regular basis in
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1 Chicago, and I think it's one of the reasons that

2 she asked if I can come and help out today.

3 As far as the role of the facilitator,

4 there's a few things that we just want to make

5 sure that it's clear of what it is that we're

6 doing.

7 The first one in think that is important

8 is that we're neutrals. We're not here to

9 advocate for either side. You all are what we

10 would call the content, you all control the

11 content, we control the process. All right? And

12 we're very open to suggestions on the process, but

13 as far as the process goes, through the number of

14 facilitations that we've done, we'll give you

15 recommendations along the way of ways to make this

16 thing work.

17 We are going to try to help you manage

18 the information, as well as to have a controlled

19 conversation. As a matter of fact, our court

20 reporter in the back over here has asked that if

21 any of you do comment, turn your mic on so that

22 way we can make sure that we hear you, but also
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1 state your name before you make any comments, so

2 that way she can record it properly.

3 We're hopefully going to make sure that

4 we eliminate any disruptions, that we increase the

5 understanding and hopefully the range of ideas to

6 help come to a solution.

7 We have some pretty smart people in the

8 room, so we've had a chance to look some of you up

9 and get a little bit of information, and if we

10 can't figure this out, shame on us, right? We've

11 got some pretty smart folks here; hopefully we can

12 harness that equity, right? And get you to a

13 resolution.

14 Are there any special needs that we need

15 to be aware of? Okay.

16 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. You can all

17 eat the cafeteria food?

18 Just a couple of other things. As

19 facilitators we do this all the time, but we want

20 to make sure that everyone's heard, everyone had a

21 chance to actually get their viewpoints

22 understood, and move you along.
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1 From reading some of your comments you

2 asked for very strong facilitators, so we will be

3 strong, but polite, because we're here to try to

4 get your folks to reach a resolution you can live

5 with and that is the best kind of law -- rule

6 making.

7 We also have put in what's called a

8 parking lot, and what that means is if there's an

9 idea that doesn't actually fit in the agenda at

10 that moment, we won't forget it, we'll put it up

11 there and you'll all keep us honest, so we'll get

12 back to it.

13 So we want you to know that if something

14 isn't working at that moment, it will be brought

15 through, and as I mentioned earlier, we'll also

16 work on future dates. But we'll see where we are

17 after today as well.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: There may be occasions

19 where, as we're doing the process, that we may

20 have to do what I call a back up, right? Where,

21 hold on a second, something's not working here,

22 let's back this up and see if we can try something
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1 different.

2 You've already got a little taste of it

3 this morning with some of the acronyms that are

4 going to be flying around. If you don't know an

5 acronym, you're probably not the only person in

6 the room that doesn't know; raise your hand if you

7 think you need to know that and we'll stop and

8 we'll make sure that we clarify that. Or any

9 mnemonics that are thrown out there.

10 I use one every now and then, you might

11 hear me say it, sometimes I'll ask is that a swag

12 number? Which is a scientific wild ass guess,

13 right. So if there's certain mnemonics, certain

14 terms that you're not familiar with, throw it out

15 there and --

16 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: You want to tell

17 them ELMO means?

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, there's a couple of

19 things. So another one that I'm going to ask you

20 all to use is ELMO, right? Where you might --

21 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: I know somebody who

22 has young children, you know about Elmo, but this
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1 is different.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: That's not the ELMO I'm

3 talking about. The ELMO I'm talking about is

4 enough, let's move on. Sometimes we as

5 facilitators, we may know are you beating a dead

6 horse? We may have an idea of it, and we may ask

7 is there enough here; can we move on? But if you

8 all feel like we're beating a dead horse, shout

9 out the ELMO, we'll make sure that everyone's in

10 agreement, and we'll move on. Okay?

11 The other one that I like to use is, as

12 far as breaks go you can see on the agenda that we

13 have designated break times. I'm not firm on

14 holding to those designated break times. I like

15 to do what I call one function breaks. Okay?

16 We'll take them as often as we need them.

17 So if you need a break, just give me the

18 sign --

19 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Like that?

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. Whatever that sign

21 is, and we'll call a one function break. The

22 whole idea there is that five, six, seven minutes
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1 tops, we'll take our break and come back and get

2 working again.

3 The one function meaning check your

4 message, come back; that's your function. Go to

5 the rest room, come back.

6 Eileen's a little softer than I am, she

7 permits some multi-tasking, so if you go to the

8 bathroom and check your messages at the same time,

9 we're not going to be enforcing that. The whole

10 idea here is keep it brief.

11 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: All right. Now I

12 think -- do we want to introduce the working

13 group?

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, let's go ahead and

15 do some introductions, right? So I guess we could

16 start over here and go around.

17 Now, when we do the introductions, I'm

18 going to ask for the -- have you ever heard of an

19 elevator speech? Okay. I'm going to shorten that

20 to a DC elevator speech, because there's only ten

21 floors --

22 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Nine or ten.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Nine floors max, so it's

2 going to be really brief, as far as the

3 introductions go.

4 If you look on the agenda on day two

5 we're going to be really getting into the issues

6 there, and at that point if you really want to

7 take a little bit of time to give some background,

8 we'll definitely have time to do that on day two.

9 So for now, your name and your

10 organization. If you're an alternate, let us know

11 if you're a voting alternate, okay? And who

12 you're an alternate for.

13 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: And where you're

14 from.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, your organization

16 and your location.

17 MR. DENNIS: Keith Dennis with the

18 National Rural Electric Cooperative Association.

19 I'm based here in the DC area.

20 MS. DICKENS: Ishbel Dickens, National

21 Manufactured Homeowners Association, from Seattle,

22 Washington.
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1 MR. DRAKE: Scott Drake, East Kentucky

2 Power out of Winchester, Kentucky.

3 MS. EPPERSON: Stacey Epperson, Next

4 Step Network, and based in Louisville, Kentucky.

5 MR. EZZO: Mark Ezzo, Clayton Homes, and

6 I'm in Knoxville, Tennessee.

7 MR. UNGAR: Lowell Ungar with American

8 Council for an Energy Efficient Economy, based

9 here in DC.

10 MR. LACEY: Eric Lacey, Responsible

11 Energy Codes Alliance, based here in DC.

12 MR. SANTANA: Manny Santana, with Cavco

13 Industries, Phoenix, Arizona.

14 MR. LUTER: Rob Luter with Lippert

15 Components, Elkhart, Indiana.

16 MR. POTTS: Richard Potts, Virginia

17 Department of Housing and Community Development,

18 Richmond, Virginia.

19 MR. ROY: Robin Roy, Natural Resources

20 Defense Council, Silicon Valley.

21 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss, Manufactured

22 Housing Association for Regulatory Reform, and we
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1 represent smaller manufacturers of manufactured

2 homes, based here in the DC area.

3 MR. TOMPOS: Dave Tompos with the NTA,

4 we're a third party inspection agency.

5 MS. STARKEY: Lois Starkey with the

6 Manufactured Housing Institute and we represent

7 all sectors of the manufactured housing industry,

8 and we're located in Arlington, Virginia.

9 MS. CYMBALSKY: Good morning, I'm John

10 Cymbalsky; I'm the Program Manager for Applied

11 Standards and Building Codes here at DOE. I am

12 the DFO of ASRAC, but today I am the voting

13 delegate for John Caskey of ASRAC.

14 MR. HAGERMAN: And I'm Joe Hagerman, I'm

15 Senior Advisor to Building Office at DOE.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Before we get started we

17 want to just introduce the people sitting over

18 here so that you know who they are.

19 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: I'm here at the DOE

20 General Counsel's Office, and I'm Program Counsel

21 for the Building Technologies Office.

22 MR. BARBOUR: I'm Ed Barbour, I'm with
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1 the Navigant Consulting; we support the Department

2 of Energy on a number of rule makings and we are

3 located here in DC.

4 MR. WALKER: I'm Matthew Walker, also

5 with Navigant Consulting.

6 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: And Natasha is our

7 court reporter, and Emily is helping with the

8 webinar, and we would like, since it's such a

9 small group, if we wouldn't mind -- if you would

10 introduce yourselves, folks in the audience, but

11 you have to put one of the microphones on.

12 MS. PONTILLO: Good morning, my name is

13 Pam Pontillo, and I'm from DOE and I'm with the

14 Office of Conflict Prevention and Resolution, and

15 our office may be getting involved in this at some

16 point, so we just wanted to learn a little bit

17 more about it. Thank you.

18 MS. FREIMUTH: Hi, my name is Janet

19 Freimuth, I also work at the Office of Conflict

20 Prevention at Resolution, and I'm here with Pam

21 today. Thank you.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steven Rosenstock,
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1 Edison Electric Institute, Washington, DC.

2 MR. MARTIN: Hi, I'm James Martin, I'm

3 with HUD's Office of Manufactured Housing

4 Programs.

5 MR. MENDLEN: Good morning, I'm Rick

6 Mendlen, I'm with the Office of Manufactured

7 Housing Programs with HUD, and we do regulate

8 manufactured housing, and we are definitely

9 interested.

10 MR. COHEN: My name is Dan Cohen, I'm

11 with the General Counsel's Office here at DOE.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: And I believe we have a

13 couple of people either on phone or in the

14 webinar. How do we get those folks introduced?

15 MS. MARCHETTI: I can --

16 MR. HAGERMAN: I guess we should also

17 ask can they hear us, as well.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: So are they on muted now?

19 MS. MARCHETTI: They are.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So the folks

21 who are on the webinar, I guess the first question

22 is can you hear us? I take it that's a no. Oh,
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1 yeah, I think some of them are typing as they are

2 going.

3 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: I think I like the

4 mute.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

6 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: These are -- I

7 think these are the ones on the phone. Do you

8 want to just check?

9 MR. RAMIREZ: So folks that are on

10 either the phone or on the webinar, Bryan Rocky,

11 Don Surrena, Michael Dubliner, Michael Wade, and

12 Thomas Ponder.

13 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. So we all

14 know who we are and maybe why we're here, and what

15 we'd like to do now is hear from John Cymbalsky as

16 the ASRAC representative.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't wear dress shoes

18 today so I'm going to sit under the table and kind

19 of hide my feet.

20 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Can you all see? I

21 can move out of the way. Can you see?

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So we've talked a
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1 little bit about why we're here. I hope, as

2 Eileen mentioned, you all volunteered for this

3 working group so I assume you have an interest in

4 resolving what has been a bit of a long rule

5 making on manufactured housing.

6 So I'll speak on behalf of the

7 Department at this point, that obviously we're

8 very interested in moving this rule making along.

9 As I said earlier, for the next day and

10 a half I'll be representing John Caskey. He will

11 actually come in this afternoon, I believe around

12 2:00 o'clock, for part of the afternoon. He's had

13 an emergency back at the office, so I've stepped

14 in.

15 We've, just so that everybody knows, had

16 a discussion on Friday about some of the things I

17 think will come up in the next two days, and I

18 have cleared with him what his thinking is in

19 terms of what votes will come up, so I'm actually

20 -- am a full proxy for John, and not for DOE at

21 this point.

22 So ASRAC was established in 2012 mostly
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1 to tackle some issues with applied standards rule

2 making, but the charter for the full ASRAC

3 committee also left open to have some issues that

4 were important to the Secretary, such as

5 manufactured housing.

6 So I know there was some questions

7 around the room, why is manufactured housing part

8 of an appliance standards federal advisor

9 committee? In fact, it fits in the charter quite

10 well, and as a rule making I think my office,

11 along with the General Counsel's Office, that

12 works in the regulatory program has great

13 experience in doing rule makings, and in

14 particular these negotiated rule makings.

15 So this is our -- let's see we've done

16 one, two -- this is three and four. ASRAC

17 chartered two groups on July 7th. Besides this

18 we're also going to tackle regional enforcement of

19 central air conditioner standards.

20 So the scope of the ASRAC is pretty

21 wide. We don't just negotiate standards levels,

22 but we negotiate certain aspects of our regulatory
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1 program, like certification of commercial

2 equipment, which was another group we formed,

3 which was very successful. We negotiated out over

4 100 different aspects of how manufacturers certify

5 commercial equipment.

6 We just recently finished a working

7 groups for pumps, commercial industrial pumps.

8 Again, another success in negotiating standards

9 levels for pumps. We, in fact, finished that

10 working group several weeks early.

11 So I am optimistic. I know this group

12 has expressed interest in moving this along

13 quickly. From DOE and ASRAC's perspective, we

14 hope that is the case as well.

15 Okay. So that goes pretty much over the

16 slide seven. Moving on to slide eight. Again, we

17 form working groups out of ASRAC to tackle various

18 issues. DOE may withdraw tasks from ASRAC at any

19 time if it feels that the group is not moving

20 forward with its objectives.

21 In the event that a consensus is not

22 reached, and ASRAC does not give more time for
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1 this consensus to be reached, DOE will go ahead

2 with its task of finishing the rule making. So it

3 should be something that everyone keeps in the

4 back of their minds as they negotiate these

5 standard levels over the next couple of months,

6 that the fact of the matter is if you don't reach

7 consensus here, DOE will reach its own consensus,

8 for better or for worse.

9 However, we really hope that this group

10 does come to a consensus because as Eileen

11 mentioned, we feel the negotiated settlement is

12 less painful for everybody.

13 Okay. So what are the benefits of the

14 negotiated rule making? So what we found in the

15 few that we've done here is that it does put a lot

16 of effort towards a lot of people here, everyone

17 here -- this is a working group and the word

18 working is actually an active word for this group.

19 You are expected to actually work.

20 Everyone needs to put effort into this,

21 not only at the meetings, but in-between meetings.

22 There's going to be homework, there's going to be
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1 analysis, there's going to be thinking that

2 everyone's going to have do. You could have side

3 phone calls within your little caucuses that might

4 form between meetings to come up with sort of, you

5 know, how you want to push things along. That's

6 fine.

7 But we expect everyone to come prepared

8 to the meetings and put the time and effort into

9 this process.

10 We think it could be less adversarial,

11 not necessarily, but could be. I think the forum

12 here is set up well for a good dialogue on all the

13 issues. I expect everybody to participate and put

14 their ideas forward, and debate them. I think

15 everyone should keep an open mind to everyone

16 else's opinions. You may not agree with them, but

17 I think as we go through negotiations it's

18 incumbent on everyone to hear everybody's position

19 to move things forward.

20 Our usual DOE process is one in which we

21 have a public meeting, we present information and

22 then we go back to our desks and our consultants,
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1 and some of us feds do a lot of work, and then a

2 year later you'll hear from us again with some

3 numbers, and another public meeting.

4 This process is actually very different

5 than that, so we're going to do things in real

6 time. We're going to have meetings -- much

7 quicker in between meetings, much more information

8 flowing in a shorter period of time, but

9 everything's going to be out on the table.

10 So there's no feelings of DOE doing

11 things in a vacuum, or creating analysis in black

12 box. We don't that anyway in our rules but I

13 think having meetings like this really reinforces

14 the fact that this is an open and transparent

15 process, everyone can learn as we go.

16 Then finally, at the end everyone's

17 going to sign on. If we do reach consensus, it

18 means you've signed onto the rule and you agree

19 with the outcome, so we expect that there's be no

20 negative words, or worse, lawsuits coming from

21 this.

22 Okay. So here's the flow chart. You
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1 can see DOE on the upper left. DOE, or others in

2 the public, at the public meetings for ASRAC full

3 committee discuss ideas of tasks. ASRAC either

4 agrees or not agrees to charter a working group.

5 So you can see on the right that's step two.

6 Here we are now in step three, where we

7 form the working group and now we're having some

8 meetings to go over how to reach consensus. So

9 we're in step four and five, and we're going to

10 hopefully come to a consensus.

11 John Caskey, who will be here throughout

12 after these next two days, will occasionally brief

13 ASRAC as necessary on progress reports.

14 Then finally, by September 30th the hope

15 is that this group comes up with what's known as a

16 term sheet. The term sheet will lay out very

17 detailed on what you are presenting to ASRAC as

18 your consensus negotiation.

19 So the term sheet will be presented to

20 ASRAC in a meeting, and the ASRAC full committee

21 will decide whether to accept it or not. Clearly

22 the ASRAC committee member, who is John Caskey,
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1 will be part of these negotiations all the while,

2 and the feeling there is that his participation

3 here will leverage a lot of the information to the

4 full ASRAC committee.

5 So far the full ASRAC committee has

6 accepted every recommendation that has come out of

7 a working group, so I fully expect that if

8 something comes out this as a term sheet, they

9 will accept it as well.

10 At that point the recommendation then

11 goes to DOE, and then the Secretary has the last

12 say whether or not to accept the terms. As

13 mentioned with ASRAC, the Secretary at this point

14 has accepted every term sheet that has come out of

15 the full ASRAC.

16 Okay. The tasking discussions. So you

17 know, just to go back over this --

18 MR. RAMIREZ: John can you get --

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Oh, it didn't go? Oh,

20 sorry, there we go.

21 I mentioned already that everyone

22 volunteered here, so the expectation is since you
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1 volunteers you'll put the time in and I hope that

2 is the case. You'll make every effort to attend

3 the meetings. At some point today or tomorrow we

4 will go over the next -- hopefully fill out the

5 set of meetings through the end of September to

6 get the job done.

7 Hopefully, everyone has their calendar

8 with them, because we will go through the dates

9 and try to get as many people as possible to agree

10 to dates. And again, September 30th is the due

11 date for this term sheet.

12 A few more little details about ASRAC.

13 I think I've talked through most of these, but the

14 working groups are limited to 25 members. We've

15 got close to 25, not quite 25 here. We accepted

16 most of the nominations that we received. Most

17 everyone was qualified and had a vested interest

18 in this, so we accepted the majority of the

19 working group applications.

20 So at some point I think -- you know,

21 this last bullet says it's going to select a

22 working group chair. I'm not sure we've done that
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1 in the other working groups, to be quite honest

2 with you. We've sort of let things flow, and let

3 the facilitators do their job, but if the group

4 thinks that there should be somebody sort of in

5 charge to crack the whip, as opposed to the

6 facilitators, that's fine too. We just haven't

7 done that before.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: I'll be glad to crack it.

9 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: We'll take turns.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So this slide

11 just goes back and talks about what we've done

12 already. So we've put out the Federal Register

13 Notice with the names and the first meeting dates.

14 The next meeting -- the next Federal

15 Register Notice will detail the rest of the

16 meetings for the next two months.

17 Then I think this is just pretty

18 straightforward information. Everyone here is

19 going to have a chance to comment on everything we

20 do.

21 Deliberations, so that's where we are

22 today. Everything of this negotiation must be in
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1 full compliance with statutory mandates, and we

2 know what they are.

3 We will be providing data as we go. I

4 think Joe will get into this a little bit later,

5 but we do anticipate providing some analysis for

6 everyone to chew on as we go forward with the

7 negotiations, and we will preform analysis in real

8 time.

9 So ideas might percolate as we go

10 through this, where the first set of numbers have

11 assumption X, Y, and Z. Someone might want to see

12 AA, b, and C, and so we have our consultants here

13 to help facilitate any extra analyses that people

14 want to see, and this has been successful in

15 getting to consensus in a few of the other working

16 groups.

17 Then as we go through the ground rules,

18 obviously the deadlines will be -- we know the

19 deadline already, but the goals that we want out

20 of this, and what exact -- you know, what you

21 values, for example, that we're going to negotiate

22 around will come clear when we go through this.
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1 Okay. So consensus. So this is going

2 to be probably the big topic for today, I would

3 imagine. What is consensus? So consensus is going

4 to be defined by this group, and consensus means a

5 lot of things to a lot of different people.

6 The facilitators will go over this in

7 great detail, put out ideas for what consensus

8 could mean, and we'll get a chance to discuss it

9 and vote upon it over the next few hours here.

10 Okay. So once we determine consensus

11 and go through all the process, we're going to

12 negotiate. If things get bogged down but we think

13 we can get to yes with a little more time, the

14 group can vote to ask ASRAC for more time.

15 I think with our transformers

16 negotiations we did extend the deadline by a

17 couple of months, and it did help get to yes on

18 some of the substance. So there is room for that,

19 but we shouldn't necessarily think to ourselves

20 that we're going to want more time. I think let's

21 do our best to try to finish by September 30th.

22 Again, if we don't get to yes, then this
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1 basically just goes back to DOE to complete a

2 proposed rule making.

3 I should say that the term sheet that

4 this group votes out, if they do, will be the guts

5 of what the proposed rule making will be. So I

6 don't know if that was clear earlier, but it's

7 clear now that whatever comes out of here in the

8 form of consensus will be what DOE puts in its

9 Notice of Proposed Rule Making if accepted by

10 ASRAC and the Secretary.

11 Okay. So again, here's the flow chart.

12 At this point I'll open it up to some questions.

13 The next slide just shows you what the charter is,

14 but if anybody has any questions over the material

15 I just covered, I'd be happy to answer them on

16 behalf of either DOE or ASRAC at this point.

17 Mark?

18 MR. WEISS: Are you going to be covering

19 the ground rules on that separately?

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Separately, yeah. And

21 then please -- I don't know if everyone knows how

22 to operate the microphone. So there's a little
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1 button that says push. If you're not speaking

2 please push it so that the green light goes off.

3 If you leave it on, it tends to cause feedback in

4 the room, so please just keep the mic on when

5 you're actively speaking.

6 Then Joe has just reminded me, the scope

7 in the charter. So the charter here is about just

8 the standards levels, it's not about enforcement

9 of that. That is not on the table, as of yet, from

10 ASRAC. So as we go through this, let's just keep

11 the scope of what we've been chartered to do,

12 which is to negotiate standards levels and not the

13 enforcement of such.

14 Yes?

15 MR. EZZO: Why aren't we talking about

16 enforcement?

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's not part of the

18 charter.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Folks, state your name

20 before just for the reporter.

21 MR. EZZO: Mark Ezzo.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: It's going to take a
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1 little bit of getting used to.

2 MR. EZZO: Is there another opportunity

3 where we're going to talk about enforcement, or

4 another separate group?

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: It could happen that

6 way. So in a commercial cert group towards the end

7 there was discussion around voluntary

8 certification programs, for example, that wasn't

9 part of the charter, but there was discussion

10 about it. The group ultimately decided not to try

11 to charter a second working group for that.

12 MR. LUTER: Rob Luter with Lippert

13 Components. What about implementation timeframe;

14 will there be discussion on that?

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I'd ask my GC

16 colleagues to help with the -- I'm actually not --

17 MR. LUTER: If I could elaborate, the

18 rule making that we discuss can't really be made

19 in a vacuum. If it's to be implemented three

20 months from now it may be a very different

21 discussion versus it's implemented two years from

22 now.
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I'd love to see what

2 the statutory requirement is for the compliance.

3 I honestly don't know.

4 MR. LUTER: I think it's important that

5 we have some conversation on that.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. We'll -- let's

7 put that in the parking lot, please.

8 I have a lot of people reading through

9 material to see if we can figure that one out.

10 Any other questions on ASRAC type stuff?

11 MS. STARKEY: Lois Starkey, MHI. What

12 was the -- maybe you've covered this and I didn't

13 hear it, the result of the four, I believe, ASRAC

14 recommendations that went to the Secretary; did

15 they then go through rulemaking? How did that --

16 maybe that will answer some of these questions

17 about at least implementation of the standards

18 part.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Sure. So the term sheet

20 was sent -- in each of the cases, the term sheet

21 was sent to the full ASRAC and accepted as is with

22 no modifications, which in then turn was presented
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1 to the Department and the Secretary, and all of

2 that went into a proposed rule making.

3 So at that point a proposed rule making

4 has to be reviewed by OMB, and so that's a 90-day

5 period, at which time the proposal is published

6 and a 60-day public comment period. Once the

7 public comments are received, DOE then takes some

8 time to formulate a final rule, which then goes

9 through OMB for another 90 days, and once the

10 final rule is published, at least for the

11 appliance standards, there is a period of time for

12 compliance, and I don't know how -- honestly how

13 it works for manufactured housing, but for the

14 appliances it's anywhere from three to five years,

15 generally.

16 MR. WEISS: For those of us who haven't

17 done this before, we get copies of some of those

18 previous term sheets, or are they accessible on

19 the Internet for us to take a look at?

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: That was Mark Weiss.

22 MR. WEISS: Sorry. That's two demerits.
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1 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: That's right, yes.

2 Who's counting? But so copies of term sheets?

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: So what I'm told,

4 parking lot item number one, we could actually

5 clear up already. So the statute is not -- does

6 not specify a compliance date. So that is

7 something we can actually negotiate.

8 Okay. So I don't see any more

9 questions. But so just to clarify. I guess an

10 analogy for another working group; so the pumps

11 working group had during its negotiations

12 identified several types of pumps and what the

13 group did was it set standards for a particular,

14 but rather large product class of pumps, and then

15 amongst themselves decided that they were going to

16 separately going to negotiate standards not inside

17 the FACA process for the other set of pumps.

18 So that's, again, just another idea to

19 throw out there about enforcement, or other

20 opportunities that might present itself as we go

21 through here.

22 The group could also ask ASRAC to form
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1 another working group to tackle enforcement. We

2 could finish the term sheet here and also ask

3 ASRAC to extend this working group to discuss

4 enforcement. I think that's something that can be

5 at least requested. So there are opportunities for

6 further work.

7 I think at this point we'll turn it

8 back.

9 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yes. Joe? We're

10 establishing ground rules. The question is do

11 want to take a break?

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, let's do a quick on

13 function then.

14 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: About a ten minute

15 break, and then we'll come back to talking about

16 establishing ground rules, wrestling with the

17 issue of consensus, and then all of the ground

18 rules. So we'll give you ten minutes. And we

19 mentioned the facilities are right out to the left

20 here.

21 (A brief break was taken.)

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's go ahead and start
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1 pulling us back in to get started. Okay. I think

2 we're ready to go here, so I'm going to talk to

3 you a little bit about consensus.

4 Well, let me ask you all, can you tell

5 me what consensus is?

6 MR. SANTANA: Everybody agree with that

7 I say.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. No, no, not at

9 home.

10 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: That was Manny.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, yeah. Anybody else

12 want to take a shot at it?

13 (Simultaneous Speaking)

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Unanimous or majority?

15 Those could be forms of consensus.

16 MS. DICKENS: A process whereby

17 everybody has an opportunity for input and

18 ultimately you get to a place where even if you

19 don't all agree, those who don't agree are willing

20 to step back and allow the process to go forward.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Goodness. She gets a gold

22 star.
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1 All right. So yeah, and the reason that

2 I asked you what is consensus, because although we

3 all have an idea of what it is, we all have a

4 slightly different interpretation of what it --

5 what consensus truly is.

6 We want to make sure that all of you are

7 on the same page before we get started, and that's

8 why we're doing this. Okay?

9 So as Ishbel said the points are right

10 there, right? Everyone has been heard, the

11 decision may not be every person's first choice,

12 but they can live with, and more importantly

13 support the decision. And why are they supporting

14 the decision? Because everyone's been heard,

15 right?

16 So when you're looking at, and although

17 it may not necessarily be your first choice,

18 you're looking at this -- what we call -- anyone

19 familiar with the term BATNA and WATNA, the best

20 alternative to a negotiated agreement, that's

21 BATNA. WATNA is the worst alternative to a

22 negotiated agreement. Best alternative; worst
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1 alternative.

2 So you're measuring what people are

3 talking about against what's the alternative.

4 However, I struggle with those terms because

5 usually they're either very doom or gloom, or very

6 rosy. So I like to call it the MLATNA, the most

7 likely alternative to a negotiated agreement.

8 That's what you're looking at against as we're

9 having these discussions.

10 So here are some of the consensus

11 guidelines that we're going to use. We're going

12 to try to create a solution that can be supported

13 by everyone, and we want to aim for an interest14 based solution.

15 Now, if we do this thing right, we're

16 going to be spending more time talking about and

17 getting an understanding of what is the issue, and

18 the interest. So what's the difference between the

19 issues and the interests? The issue is the what?

20 The interest is the why? Why is this a problem?

21 Why is it a concern? Right? So we're going to be

22 spending a lot of time on the issue, and the
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1 interest.

2 As a matter of fact, I think it was

3 Einstein that said that if I had one hour to solve

4 a problem, and my life depended on it, I would

5 take the first 55 minutes to make sure that I

6 understood the problem, and the last five minutes

7 to actually start solving it.

8 Hopefully that's the mentality that

9 we're going to take in here. Make sure we fully

10 understand what are the issues, what are the

11 interests, and then discuss problem solving.

12 So here are some additional guidelines.

13 If we're going to do this right we want to make

14 sure that you're asking questions, and not just

15 any questions, a lot of times questions are

16 statements in the form of a question. We want to

17 ask curious questions. Question to help develop

18 understanding. We want to raise valid doubts,

19 offer alternatives, and we want to spend more time

20 on how can we make this work/why is it not going

21 to work? Do you see the difference there?

22 So if we're talking about something,
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1 let's figure out how can make this thing work, and

2 that's to compete for individual ideas.

3 So when we talk about consensus, this is

4 the ladder of consensus, and if you look at the

5 first one there, agree completely, you know, break

6 out the pompoms, everyone's happy, right? The

7 next level is acceptable; can live with the

8 decision. There's a third, and then do not agree,

9 but won't block and will support. Then do not

10 agree and will block.

11 Now, I've seen very few groups that when

12 they're gauging the level of consensus they've

13 used fingers, where five fingers will be agree

14 completely, this will be acceptable, would be

15 four. Three fingers, can live with the decision.

16 Two fingers, do not agree but won't block and will

17 support. Then one figure would be do not agree

18 and will block.

19 You can decide which finger, right, but

20 only one finger standing, right? I think that's a

21 little complicated. So the way that we like to do

22 it is the thumbs. Thumb up; first two, agree
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1 completely or acceptable. Sideways; you can live

2 with the decision, or don't agree but won't block,

3 and again will support, I sideways. Thumb down is

4 no agreement. Okay? I'm going to talk a little

5 bit more about thumbs down in a little bit.

6 So any questions on the ladder of

7 consensus and how we're going to use the thumbs to

8 gauge it? I'm going to do a couple of practice

9 runs here and these are things that we as

10 facilitators, that I like to make sure that we're

11 doing, and let me see where -- if I get buy-in on

12 them.

13 So apart from the ground rules that

14 Eileen's going to be going through with you, I

15 want to see if we can agree on these. Agree on

16 what important words mean, okay? So that's one of

17 the ground rules that I like. Agree on what

18 important words mean.

19 Because there's times where parties are

20 arguing about stuff, but they have a different

21 interpretation of a certain word, so if we see

22 that disconnect we're going to pause and say, what
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1 a second, what do you mean by X? Okay?

2 So is everyone okay with that? Agree on

3 what important words mean? Let me see where

4 you're at on that. All right. So there were no

5 thumbs down, so that one's good.

6 Focus on interest and not positions,

7 right? We want to focus on the why not the what.

8 I'm sorry - - the way, not the how. Your how.

9 Okay? Focus on interest, not positions. Everyone

10 okay with that? Yeah?

11 MR. SANTANA: The how is important.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Right.

13 MR. SANTANA: How can you focus on the

14 why, not the how?

15 MR. RAMIREZ: I should clarify; not your

16 how necessarily. There could be other ways to get

17 there. So what we want to do is once we fully

18 understand what is the issue, and what are the

19 interests, is there a different way to go there?

20 Maybe something different than what you originally

21 were thinking of when you came in. Okay? So

22 focus on the interest, not positions. Everyone
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1 okay with that? Let me see a show of thumbs.

2 Nice. All right. So you're getting

3 this. So a sideways. Where was yours?

4 MR. LEVY: Still thinking.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So what do you do?

6 You know what, abstaining -- yeah, abstaining

7 would be sideways, right? Or it could be the

8 thumbs down, because the first thing you said was,

9 I was thinking. You could do a thumbs down for

10 that, because what happens is if your thumbs is

11 down, I'm going to look at you and say why is your

12 thumb down? Because I need a few more minutes to

13 process. No problem. We'll take a couple more

14 minutes, we'll let you process it, and then we'll

15 check again. Okay?

16 So in that case if you're saying, you

17 know what, I'll go along with it, then yeah, it's

18 sideways. Okay? This is why I'm doing a few

19 little practice runs.

20 Explain reasoning and intent. So if you

21 are going to give an option, be prepared to

22 explain the reasoning and intent behind it. Okay?
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1 People okay with that? I didn't see some thumbs

2 up, right?

3 So what happens with that? I call it

4 the steamroller. Okay? There may be times when

5 I'm going spark up that steamroller, and I'm going

6 to say, hey, I don't see any thumbs down; we're

7 good. It's your responsibility to put your thumb

8 up or down, okay?

9 Discuss un-discussable issues. There's

10 times where were doing these things and we get

11 this dynamic going; you know, everyone kind of

12 look around like, oh man, they just stepped in it,

13 right? Hey, if we need to talk about it, we're

14 going to bring it up. Okay? We're going to pick

15 on you and say what are you thinking? What's

16 going on? And get it out in the open. Is

17 everyone okay with that? Let me see a show of

18 thumbs if you're okay with that, discuss un19 discussable issues. All right.

20 Then the last one. No spitting,

21 kicking, punching, yelling, screaming, scratching,

22 pulling hair, slapping. All right. That's my way
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1 of telling the parties be hard on the issues not

2 on the people. Okay?

3 Sometimes negotiations can get a bit

4 emotional, emotions start to rise, they get in the

5 way; we'll see what can do to deal with that and

6 refocus you all on what we need to do to get a

7 deal. Okay? Everyone okay with that one? Let me

8 see a show of thumbs. Okay.

9 So feeling pretty good with the thumbs,

10 right? Now, if your thumb is down, and you if

11 notice in the consensus ladder we said that do not

12 agree and will block; if your thumb is down,

13 that's a block. You're a blocker, and it's not

14 necessary a bad thing. But if your thumb is down,

15 I'm going to ask you why is your thumb down? All

16 right?

17 I had, after one negotiations, I had a

18 person telling me during one of the breaks, why do

19 you keep picking on me? I said, well, what do you

20 mean? He said, you keep calling on me. Well,

21 because your thumb is down, right? And if your

22 thumb is down, we need to know why. It could be
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1 just as simple as, hey, I spaced out.

2 Does anyone have an idea of more or less

3 on average how long we focus on a topic in chunks?

4 17 seconds. Okay? So on average. You're going

5 to space out; it's going to happen. Okay? And if

6 it happens during the time that I just asked a

7 question, oh my God, why are thumbing? Right? I

8 didn't understand the question, right?

9 That can also be the second one, right?

10 Not sure of the question. Maybe I didn't phrase

11 it right. Maybe I threw in a double negative and

12 you're like, oh my God, what do I do there?

13 Right? Maybe I wasn't clear on it. So if you

14 don't know, put your thumb down, okay, and we'll

15 talk about it.

16 Or it could be that you're blocking,

17 right? But if you do block, it's not just as

18 simple as no. If you put your thumb down, you're

19 going to have a responsibility and that

20 responsibility is to explain what the concern is,

21 and offer an alternative. Okay?

22 So you're not going to escape very easy
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1 thinking that I'm just going to block, block,

2 block, block; you need to explain why and offer

3 the alternative. Okay?

4 So we're going to do a few things as far

5 as what I call temperature checks. So every now

6 and then I may just ask the group, where are you

7 at on this? Let's see, right? And that's a

8 temperature check.

9 Versus the consensus confirmation, and

10 we'll make it clear. This is the consensus

11 confirmation, and this is the official one, where

12 are at? And then the thumbs will be shown, okay?

13 Now again, it's your responsibility to

14 show the thumb, otherwise -- you know, for the

15 first few at least, I'll be telling you, I'm

16 starting up the steamroller; I'm getting ready to

17 go here. Are you sure? And if you don't put your

18 thumb down, then it's essentially a this. Okay?

19 Everyone clear on that?

20 All right. So what we are suggesting as

21 far as consensus goes is what we call a super

22 majority. Now, a super majority is anything that's
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1 above 50 percent plus one. Okay? We're not

2 talking about 50 percent plus two.

3 When we talk about a super majority,

4 what we're going to do is we're going to strive to

5 get you as many times as possible as close to 100

6 percent. Okay? However, as a floor we're

7 suggesting a two- third majority.

8 So I believe -- I counted quickly --

9 there was 15 folks in the room today, and we would

10 do this every day. We'll do this every day; see

11 what the voting count is for that day, and if

12 there's -- you know, for my simple head, I'll tell

13 you what, I wasn't hired because of my spelling --

14 as a matter of fact, I was commended on my

15 creativity when it comes to spelling, and I wasn't

16 necessarily hired for my math skills.

17 So for my simple head let's just say

18 there's 15 people in the room; two-thirds, we need

19 to have ten folks. Or essentially five people

20 that would be blocking, right? So we need at

21 least ten people in that simple math that are

22 either affirming or they're going to go ahead and
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1 say I'm not voting at all. They just don't throw

2 any thumbs up, because again, that's going to be a

3 sideways. So if they abstain or affirm, there you

4 have it. Again, so we'll confirm that daily

5 number so you'll know exactly what it is when we

6 get started.

7 So let me see a show of thumbs, and this

8 is the way, again, to have dialogue, and let me

9 back it up before I do a formal thumbing there.

10 And it's not a bad thing, that could be --

11 thumbing -- okay.

12 As a matter of fact, I did this in

13 Bangladesh and when I was over there in Bangladesh

14 this is an insult.

15 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Right, you can't do

16 that there.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: So we had to use the

18 fingers in Bangladesh. A little muddy, but we got

19 through it.

20 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: That's why body

21 language doesn't always translate.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Right. Okay. So when we
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1 do the thumbing it could also be a way to generate

2 more dialogue. Because if you remember with the

3 consensus everyone was heard. So I might ask the

4 group where are we at on this, and if your thumb

5 is down, great, we're going to go and we're going

6 to have some more dialogue.

7 So it's a way to generate conversation,

8 not necessarily trying to twist arms and get you

9 to agree to anything; it's a way to generate

10 dialogue. Okay? So if you're not in agreement,

11 you can always throw the thumb down and we'll talk

12 about it.

13 So as far as our process goes, we're

14 going to strive as much as we can go get close to

15 100 percent on consensus, but as a floor two-third

16 majority. Let me see if you're okay with that.

17 Let me see a show of thumbs if you're okay with a

18 super majority of two-thirds minimum. Okay.

19 Now, Eileen is going to go over the

20 ground rules with you, and so when we get to that

21 section on the ground rules if we need to tighten

22 that up a little bit as far as the consensus
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1 language, we can do that.

2 Nut we're going to review it all. I

3 believe we're going to be asking for some thumbs

4 occasionally to make sure that everyone's okay

5 with the ground rules, but if you all need to say

6 something just state your name, let's get in on

7 record.

8 Most of this stuff -- I feel sorry for

9 the poor court reporter on that ground; we're all

10 talking there. That's okay, that wasn't anything

11 official, right? We're just trying to get that --

12 I mean, the consensus vote, that was unanimous

13 right? And we're going to do that, we're going to

14 do a best to get you close to a consensus.

15 MR. LUBLINER: I didn't object to it --

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, it was. Correct?

17 MR. ROY: Robin Roy, NRDC. I didn't

18 object to it, but I wasn't sure; it went pretty

19 quickly. Was everybody happy with the idea of

20 two-thirds being adequate for consensus? If

21 that's the case, I'm happy with it, I don't have

22 an objection, but I also am quite respective of
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1 minority interests and if somebody at this table

2 things they have one, I'd really like to hear it

3 rather than just rolling so quickly through it.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: No problem.

5 MR. UNGAR: Lowell Ungar. I just wasn't

6 sure for that, in terms of the super majority, a

7 super majority for what? Are we talking in

8 general, including for the final product, that

9 two-thirds would be considered consensus?

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, because the way I'm

11 envisioning this is that you're going to have a

12 number of issues that we're going to be

13 discussing, right? So as we're going and as we're

14 working through, if we need formal agreement on

15 something, we're going to be asking, all right,

16 where's the consensus, the final consensus vote?

17 Let's see where you're at on that, and that's

18 where we're going to be striving to get that 100

19 percent, but at a minimum that two-third majority.

20 MR. ROY: Robin Roy again. What comes

21 with that is an agreement from the members that

22 their organizations will not have a legal action,
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1 will not contest the proposal, or the proposed

2 rule? Is that - - that comes straight through it?

3 Okay. Just to be clear.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Perfect. I say perfect,

5 but I'll just back it up a little bit; almost

6 perfect. Right? Your question was great; I just

7 need for you to throw that thumb down because

8 otherwise that's what I was talking about with the

9 steamroller, right? I don't see any thumbs down,

10 I'm going --

11 MR. ROY: That's why I was asking if it

12 could be a bit more formal on such a weighty

13 matter. My thumb won't be done as long as I'm

14 confidently taking everybody's pulse here. I'm

15 really happy with it, I think it's fine; I think

16 it's really workable, but --

17 MR. RAMIREZ: So let's be clear on that,

18 let's take it -- this is the consensus final.

19 Let's see a show of thumbs with the memo of two20 third majority. Okay. So that's sideways so

21 we're good. Okay. So thank you.

22 MR. ROY: That makes me very happy.
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1 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: It also means

2 though, it's not going to be just a struggle for

3 two-thirds; we're working for 100 percent.

4 Everyone be heard and work though.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So -- yes?

6 MR. LUTER: Just one comment. I would -

7 - and I'd ask John in previous negotiated rule

8 makings, how often are you right at two-thirds?

9 My guess is if one-third of the folks here

10 strenuously just disagree with something, there's

11 going to be adequate discussion to vet out exactly

12 why, and maybe some reconsideration given.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, I will tell you

14 we're going to be doing those temperature checks.

15 Because again, we want to try to get you as close

16 to 100 percent as possible, and if those -- if

17 that -- let's say a third in this case are no, we

18 need to have some more dialogue, right?

19 So we want to make sure that everyone

20 has an opportunity to not only discuss it but

21 offer alternatives. If your thumb is down, we're

22 going to be calling on you; offer an alternative.
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1 Let's discuss it.

2 MR. LUTER: My apologies; that was Rob

3 Luter with Lippert Components. If I can get that

4 demerit back?

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: So just to answer your

7 question -- John Cymbalsky, DOE. So that's

8 exactly right. So the process, when an idea is

9 first floated, there's probably several no's, and

10 then the discussion. In every case, got the

11 yes's. There was -- in the commercial cert there

12 were like 105 of these things; there was only one

13 no vote across all 105, believe it or not.

14 So it took lots of time to get everybody

15 to that position, but as Javier said, I think

16 everyone here wants to get to the all yes's, but

17 absent that, the super majority, yeah.

18 MS. STARKEY: Lois Starkey, MHI. Just

19 clarification on the -- when you do take a vote,

20 or a consensus, what about the people on the

21 phone?

22 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: If they're voting
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1 they get to vote.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So we did get the one

3 member that is on the phone put thumbs up for

4 this.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Excellent. So you

6 know what, I like that question. So we're going -

7 - let's tighten it up just a little bit.

8 So Emily, and folks on the phone, if

9 you're a voting member, you'll let us know if

10 somebody is an objection.

11 MS. MARCHETTI: Okay. Sure.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Anything else? All right.

13 Let me pop up the ground rules. You have -- I'm

14 going to give you a couple of minutes to look in

15 your packets there; towards the back are the --

16 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: The very last --

17 MR. RAMIREZ: -- draft ground rules, and

18 we'll throw them up here as well.

19 I'll stay over here in case there's any

20 -- you know, what, these are fairly standard

21 ground rules.

22 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: These ground rules
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1 have been used for other Department of Energy

2 ASRAC working groups, so it's -- but obviously if

3 there's a concern, we want to deal with it,

4 because this how we'll be operating in this

5 working group.

6 So we want to give you a few minutes to

7 read them, if you have questions, and then to go

8 over them.

9 Has everyone finished, or do you need a

10 few moments? If you need a moment just let me

11 know. Okay.

12 Well, a couple of things; first, we just

13 got an email so things are working in real time,

14 from Jeremiah Freeman, who is helping staff

15 resources, who says, "Good morning, during this

16 morning's portion of the meeting it was requested

17 that you have access to term sheets from past

18 working groups. Attached are the term sheets from

19 ASRAC's two previous working groups". So the

20 commercial HVAC and the Industrial Pumps. So you

21 will have those. They've just been sent via

22 email.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: That's impressive.

2 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yes. If you need

3 copies, let us know also.

4 What I'd like to do now is now that we

5 are used to the thumbs up/thumbs down, is just to

6 go through the ground rules, since these will

7 actually be governing how we operate.

8 So starting with number one, the goal of

9 manufactured housing negotiated rule making

10 working group. It's to reach consensus on a

11 recommended set of energy efficiency standards for

12 manufactured housing, decisions reached by the

13 working group are going to be reported ASRAC

14 during an open meeting and ASRAC will openly

15 deliberate on the working group's recommendations

16 and reach consensus as defined by the committee on

17 a formal recommendation to DOE.

18 How do you feel about that? Thumbs up?

19 Any -- okay. That was harmless, right? Okay.

20 Moving along. Participants. Interests

21 represent any interest that would be significantly

22 affected by the rule may be represented in the
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1 negotiations. Okay? Everybody?

2 Parties to the negotiations; the working

3 group consists of those individuals whom the DOE

4 has appointed and nominated by affected interest,

5 and each organization or interest caucus that is

6 directly represented on the working group shall be

7 deemed a party to the negotiations. Okay?

8 Working group members; each working

9 group member appointed by DOE agrees to serve

10 until the dissolution of the working group, and we

11 promise not to keep it forever -- all right.

12 Unless that member becomes unable to serve,

13 resigns, or ceases to maintain the

14 representational requirements. All right? Make

15 sure --

16 Alternatives for working group members;

17 each party to the negotiations may designate an

18 alternate working group member, and alternates may

19 substitute for the working group member in the

20 event a member can't attend a session.

21 Only working group members may vote on

22 consensus recommendations, and any alternate
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1 casting a vote shall do so on behalf of the

2 working group member, and not as a representative

3 of his own organization.

4 Any questions? Yes, Manny?

5 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco.

6 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yes.

7 MR. SANTANA: Can an alternate be on the

8 phone if the member is at the meeting?

9 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yes, an alternate

10 can be on the phone; only one can vote, though.

11 MR. SANTANA: Okay.

12 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yeah, an alternate

13 can be -- I think we have some maybe on the phone.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: So just to clarify,

15 anyone from the public can be on the phone at any

16 time.

17 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Right.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Including alternates.

19 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: But the alternate -

20 -

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Can't vote. No double

22 voting.
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1 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yeah, only one vote

2 per organization. Yes?

3 MR. TOMPOS: David Tompos, NTA. Can we

4 set that alternate at any time through the

5 process? We don't need to assign one now, right?

6 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Right. That's

7 right.

8 MR. TOMPOS: Prior to the meeting?

9 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: But one would hope

10 you would brief the alternate.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: At the beginning we're

12 going to make sure that we know who the voting

13 members are. So everyone that's seated here at the

14 table is a voting member, and we have three folks

15 that are voting members that are on the webinar.

16 So in this case there's actually 18.

17 Yeah, Ishbel?

18 MS. DICKENS: And just to turn that

19 around, given that I'm probably not going to be

20 travelling from the West Coast to all of these

21 meetings, is it all right for my alternate to be

22 here physically while I'm on the phone just
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1 listening in?

2 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yes.

3 MS. DICKENS: Okay.

4 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: But still only one

5 vote. Okay? And just work on who it is, on that

6 score.

7 Yes, Mark?

8 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss, MHARR. I'd like

9 to ask DOE to disclose all applicants for the

10 committee, including people who were not accepted

11 for membership, in the interest of full

12 disclosure.

13 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Response?

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Sure, yeah, we'll look

15 at that.

16 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yeah, John just

17 said yes.

18 MR. WEISS: I have some general

19 questions, and also some more specific questions;

20 I think I'll wait until you get to the area that

21 I'm most interested in. Thank you.

22 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. But in terms
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1 of -- does everyone understand how the alternates

2 work? We need to know who it is, but -- and we

3 would hope you'd brief that person.

4 We really would love to have the same

5 people, if possible. You know how face to face

6 also works better, but we understand people have

7 very busy schedules. Okay.

8 So now, additional interests; additional

9 organizational interests may join the working

10 group after negotiations have begun only with the

11 concurrence with the working group, which is the

12 whole group. What's your view?

13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Inaudible

14 1:14:36).

15 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yes, sure.

16 Concurrence, agreement?

17 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 100 percent

18 agreement or --

19 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Or consensus, yes.

20 Concurrence in this instance means consensus as

21 defined by the group, which is two-thirds. Okay.

22 Thank you. And we'll change that so -- thank you.
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1 Attendance and participation at

2 meetings; attendance, each working group member

3 agrees to make a good faith effort to attend every

4 session of the negotiated working group, and

5 attendance and voting may be by telephone or other

6 electronic means.

7 In addition, the working group's members

8 alternate agrees to make a good faith effort to

9 attend all meetings and the represent the interest

10 at any meeting the member is unable to attend.

11 Okay? Any questions? All right.

12 Participation; only working group

13 members or their alternates have the privilege of

14 sitting at the negotiating table, and of speaking

15 from the floor during the negotiations without

16 working group approval, except, and I'll read the

17 three exceptions.

18 Any working group member may call upon

19 another individual to elaborate on a relevant

20 point. Working group counsel, which we see over on

21 the table there, may raise and address appropriate

22 points and, C, any person attending the working
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1 group members may address the working group if

2 time permits, or file statements with the working

3 group.

4 Any discussion or can we all agree on

5 that? Keith? Okay. All right.

6 Constituent's interests; working group

7 members are expected to represent the concerns of

8 their interest group to ensure that any agreement

9 developed by the working group is acceptable to

10 the organization or caucus, which the working

11 group member represents. Okay? All right.

12 Okay. I should ask about our folks out

13 on the electronic highway?

14 MS. MARCHETTI: No objection.

15 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. Thank you.

16 Thank you and thank Emily.

17 Okay. Decision making; consensus. The

18 working group will operate by consensus and

19 instead of e.g., we'll just say a super majority

20 of two-thirds of the parties to negotiations

21 present and voting.

22 Concurrence will be assumed absent over
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1 decent, evidenced by a negative vote. Abstentions

2 shall not be construed as a negative vote. All

3 agreements reached during the negotiations are

4 tentative and may be made by the members present

5 at the meeting, or their alternates who attend a

6 meeting in their stead until the working group

7 reaches a final decision that is binding on the

8 parties.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Take a look up on the

10 board; I changed that first sentence to clarify

11 what we had put on there. It was slightly

12 different than Eileen had stated, so --

13 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Oh, okay.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: The working group will

15 operate by consensus of a two-thirds super

16 majority of the parties.

17 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. So we'll

18 change that as you had --

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, that is the verbiage

20 right there.

21 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. Is that

22 agreeable? Okay.
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1 Subgroups -- almost done -- I'm a New

2 Yorker, I can really talk fast, but this is

3 important.

4 Subgroups; one, subgroups may be formed

5 to address specific issues and develop information

6 for, advise, and make recommendations to the

7 working group. Although each party may designate a

8 member of each subgroup, the membership of each

9 subgroup should consist of no more than 15 people.

10 Other individuals who the working group

11 believes would enhance the functioning of a

12 subgroup, or representatives of interest that

13 would be significantly affected by the topics

14 addressed by the subgroup, but which are not

15 otherwise represented on the negotiated working

16 group, may also serve on that subgroup.

17 Not all organizations or interest

18 caucuses represented on the negotiated working

19 group need to participate in each subgroup.

20 Whether we have subgroups is another

21 issue, but if we do that's -- I want to hear how

22 you feel about that.
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1 MR. DENNIS: I just have a question.

2 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Sure. All right.

3 Keith first, and then Ishbel.

4 MR. DENNIS: The word party is used in

5 here and I think it's going to be more of an issue

6 towards the end, but party is that just us as the

7 person on the working group or is that supposed to

8 be our entire organization?

9 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Get a

10 clarification.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: We would need

12 clarification on that, but the way -- my initial

13 thinking on that would be that the group here, but

14 you are representing your organization. Right?

15 But we can look into that to make sure.

16 MR. DENNIS: Okay. I'll bring it back

17 up where it's more relevant.

18 MR. DENNIS: (Inaudible).

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Parties in negotiation?

20 Okay. That's all of you.

21 So we do have clarification, it is all

22 of you. When we say parties, it's all of you.
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1 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: So the party is the

2 organizational member.

3 MR. DENNIS: So not our whole

4 organization.

5 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: It's you

6 representing the organization. We can make that

7 clearer. Okay. And then -- yes, Ishbel. Sorry.

8 MS. DICKENS: Sorry. I just wanted --

9 I'm curious about the process. Other individuals

10 who might be invited to a subgroup meeting, is

11 that just anyone we want to bring, or do we have

12 to have approval from the rest of the subgroup

13 members before inviting them, or how -- there's

14 nothing that really defines that process.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: You all are the ones that

16 if necessary will form the subgroups, but that's

17 something that we all discuss and work out if we

18 need it. We may not even need it.

19 MS. DICKENS: Right. No, I understand

20 how we would form the subgroup; I'm just curious

21 how other individuals who are not part of the

22 working group or the subgroup are invited to
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1 participate. There's no process for that part.

2 Maybe the subgroup just decides; I don't know.

3 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Well, let me ask

4 John.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE. So

6 typically the subgroups who are off on their own -

7 - I don't want to say it was the Wild West, but

8 they basically were a caucus that they formed, and

9 if they brought in other people to help them with

10 analysis, we wouldn't have known that.

11 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: So the subgroup

12 decides, I guess, you could bring in who you --

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: What they would do is go

14 off and then come back to the main working group

15 here and present their analysis and/or findings,

16 or position on a certain issue as the subgroup,

17 which are members of this working group,

18 officially.

19 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Did that answer

20 your question?

21 MS. DICKENS: Yeah, it's just that

22 (simultaneous speaking) --
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1 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: No, that's a good

2 point. Sure. The subgroup itself decides.

3 Yes?

4 MR. LUTER: Rob Luter from Lippert.

5 Just an observation, based on the rules as they're

6 laid out, I don't believe this would preclude any

7 of from brining in a third party. The public's

8 invited. An expert on a particular bit of

9 minutia, or whatever, to speak, is that correct?

10 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yes, you could

11 bring in anyone.

12 Yes, Mark?

13 MR. WEISS: I just want to be clear on

14 the subgroups issues. So the subgroup is not

15 necessary formed by agreement of the full

16 committee? The subgroups constitute themselves?

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: So here's how it works -

18 - sorry. The working group committee -- let's say

19 the issue is window -- U-factors of windows. Just

20 making this up right now. And the working group

21 feels that a subset of this group could go off and

22 discuss issues and maybe come up with an
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1 negotiating position on what the U-factor of the

2 window should be. The working group, the main

3 working group, will say okay, X, Y, Z, and AA,

4 please go off as a subgroup and come back with the

5 pros and cons of whatever it is. That's how it's

6 worked in the past.

7 Now, whether or not those four people

8 relied on consultants, or colleagues; there's no

9 way of knowing that. The subgroup worked sort of

10 autonomously based on being created out of this

11 working group.

12 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: So to answer Mark's

13 question though, this committee creates the

14 subgroups?

15 MR. WEISS: That's right.

16 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: So the overall

17 authority, because they're subgroups, but the

18 membership of the subgroup doesn't only have to be

19 members of this committee. Does that -- okay.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. And generally

21 how it's worked is, again, it was the subgroup was

22 based on people volunteering, or based on their
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1 expertise to do that.

2 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: True. When we get

3 into, today or tomorrow, on the scope of issues,

4 there may be issues that are appropriate for

5 subgroups, there may be -- that everyone wants to

6 be involved in it, and that will be the kind of

7 decision that this whole group would make.

8 So I'm assuming this is okay, that --

9 with that explanation? All right.

10 DOE will provide appropriate support for

11 the working group and the subgroups, including a

12 senior economist. I think we have two here.

13 Senior technical staff, clerical support, counsel,

14 and so forth. I'm assuming that's --

15 Subgroups are not authorized to make

16 decisions for the working group as a whole, and

17 decisions to forward a report of a subgroup to the

18 negotiated working group shall be made with the

19 concurrence of all subgroup members who are

20 present at the meeting where the decision is made.

21 I think here concurrence also means

22 consensus. Is that all right? Okay. All right.
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1 Four, subgroup meetings will be held

2 between the full sessions and will be scheduled in

3 the same location and time whenever possible. All

4 working group members will be notified of all

5 subgroup meetings.

6 Yes? Mark, do you have a question?

7 MR. WEISS: Yes, this is an issue that's

8 come up in other contexts. The subgroup meetings,

9 are they public as well, just like the meetings of

10 this main committee?

11 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: I don't think so.

12 Did John just leave? Yeah, I don't think the

13 subgroup are considered part of the FACA, per say.

14 Do they -- the question was, do they

15 have to be put in the Federal Register, a subgroup

16 meeting? No? Okay.

17 MR. WEISS: But once -- when they're

18 convened are they public, and members --

19 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

20 MR. WEISS: Okay.

21 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: And they're not

22 public -- well, they're not -- you can decide
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1 who's there. It's not open to the public.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: The way I understand it,

3 they're going to bring -- the subgroup's going to

4 bring that recommendation to us, so whatever that

5 final outcome is, will be here.

6 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: But its

7 deliberations can be private.

8 MR. WEISS: I understand, but oftentimes

9 the actual meat of the deliberations is what

10 occurs in the subgroup in other contexts that I'm

11 familiar with.

12 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. Is this

13 agreeable? What are -- John? Mark?

14 MR. WEISS: Well, my position, in that

15 other context I'm referring to, and specifically

16 the Manufactured Housing Consensus Committee has

17 always been regardless of FACA and its

18 requirements, that all subgroup committee and

19 subgroup working groups should be publicized to

20 members of interested parties can participate if

21 they wish, and those parties should have an

22 opportunity to make their -- at least provide
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1 input, even to subgroup or subcommittees.

2 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: So what does the

3 group think? Do we have consensus? Okay.

4 Okay. This one I think we'll all agree

5 on. Discontinue if unproductive; the working group

6 may discontinue negotiations at time if they do

7 not appear productive. Agreement?

8 Then deadline for negotiations;

9 negotiations will terminate by September 30th,

10 2014, unless the DOE and ASRAC decide to extend

11 the deadline.

12 Every reasonable effort will be made to

13 conclude negotiations and report a consensus term

14 sheet to ASRAC by September 30th, 2014.

15 Okay. All right. Now, on agreement,

16 term sheet, and supporting analysis; any agreement

17 reached by the working group on recommended

18 standards for manufactured housing will take the

19 form of a written statement that will be signed by

20 all parties to negotiations.

21 It is anticipated that the agreement

22 will include a written statement that includes; A,
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1 a term sheet outlining the significant terms of

2 the proposed rule, and B, supporting analysis as

3 needed to explain and justify the agreed terms

4 from a legal, engineering, and economic

5 perspective.

6 DOE staff will be responsible for

7 translating this term sheet and analysis into the

8 language of a proposed rule, it's supporting

9 preamble, a regulatory impact analysis, and all

10 other appropriate materials necessary for the

11 publication of a notice of proposed rule making.

12 Any -- what is -- how do you feel?

13 Okay?

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's see the thumbs.

15 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Thumbs? Okay.

16 Statement is a basis for a Notice of Proposed Rule

17 Making. DOE agrees to use the written statement,

18 and any recommended standards as the basis for

19 Notice of Proposed Rule Making to the maximum

20 extent possible, consistent with the Agency's

21 legal obligations. Okay?

22 Response to public comments; DOE will
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1 consider all relevant comments submitted

2 concerning the Notice of Proposed Rule Making, and

3 will make such modifications in the proposed

4 standards, and its preamble, as are necessary when

5 issuing a final standard. Yes? Okay.

6 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You missed one.

7 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: I missed one? Oh,

8 I'm sorry. Which one did I miss?

9 (Simultaneous speaking)

10 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: C? No negative --

11 thank you -- it wasn't on purpose. You're just

12 checking here --

13 MR. RAMIREZ: That's fast.

14 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: What a great group.

15 Okay. C, no negative comments, except against the

16 facilitator. All right.

17 Each party agrees not to file negative

18 comments or speak negatively on the proposed

19 school district or its preamble, to the extent

20 that they have the same substance and effect as

21 the term sheet. Yes? Mark?

22 MR. WEISS: My questions pre-suppose
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1 nothing, this is just a matter of due diligence.

2 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Sure.

3 MR. WEISS: Two questions. One general;

4 one specific. Generally, where do these ground

5 rules come from? Are the statutory, regulatory,

6 policy, or just simply by agreement of this

7 committee? What's the basis for them?

8 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Well, these have

9 been taken from other ground rules of other DOE

10 committees. But --

11 MR. WEISS: Okay. So they're binding to

12 the extent that we agree to be bound by them?

13 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yes.

14 MR. WEISS: Okay. Specific questions,

15 and this pertains to C as well as E and F.

16 Parties in dissent from the final vote; what is

17 their position vis-a-vis comments and court

18 challenges, and so forth. I mean, I understand if

19 you're in consensus, a member of the consensus,

20 you wouldn't obviously want to oppose what you

21 just agreed to, but if you are in dissent, what is

22 the situation with that? I don't see that
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1 specifically addressed here.

2 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Where did he go?

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Kavita's going to --

4 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Kavita Vaidyanathan,

5 DOE General Counsel Office.

6 The no negative comments, we -- it is a

7 consensus group, so if the group comes to a

8 consensus we expect that all working group

9 members, even if you disagree with the group, that

10 you would not provide any negative comments, or

11 have any negative positions on the proposed rule

12 making.

13 MR. WEISS: (Inaudible) challenge that

14 on due process grounds?

15 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Not that I know of,

16 but I can look into it.

17 MR. WEISS: There's always a first.

18 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yes, Keith?

19 MR. DENNIS: I have a question on this.

20 So I mean, if something comes out where there's a

21 couple of strong people who don't agree with

22 something in the consensus, I think you could get
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1 around this a lot of ways, you know, looking -- I

2 mean, what's negative? What has the actual same

3 effect as a term sheet?

4 I think that putting something in the

5 Federal Register and saying this informational,

6 and by the way, we didn't agree; that's not going

7 to be the same effect as what's in -- that the

8 term sheet has.

9 The party -- I'm reading the definition

10 of party, and you know, I think we tried to

11 clarify but there's an or in there, and it's real

12 -- I mean, I don't know that if there was

13 something that was really bad, that we -- you

14 know, that we could agree that our whole

15 organization up to the CEO would decide not to

16 make any comment that might be construed negative

17 by other people.

18 So it's kind an uncomfortable thing to

19 say that -- you know, I mean, that we're all in

20 good faith not going to do this, but it just seems

21 like a very fluffy kind of statement to agree to,

22 because it could be construed that we were in --
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1 you know, by the way, we're in the majority, we

2 represent 900 co-ops, here's why, it goes out in

3 the Federal Register, and somebody says, well, you

4 didn't agree to this.

5 So I don't know, it -- just for

6 discussion, it make me a little uncomfortable to

7 say, you know, on behalf of our organization, no

8 matter what happens here, we won't say anything

9 that could be construed negative, and I think

10 there's probably due process consideration.

11 I'm not sure, but that one out of

12 everything here seems -- and maybe to come seem a

13 little bit more difficult than some of the others

14 in here.

15 MR. WEISS: If I could make a statement

16 further, my question, I've looked at the

17 Negotiated Rule Making Act and I would just say in

18 response to the statement by General Counsel's

19 Office, I find it extraordinary without some

20 statutory or regulatory basis, that we're

21 essentially deemed to have waived our right to

22 object in what will become an Administrative
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1 Procedure Act rule making, simply by participation

2 in the committee, even if we are dissent.

3 I'm simply saying that now, that's --

4 like I said, my -- it pre-supposes nothing, but

5 it's due diligence, and now we're without

6 prejudice to further steps, depending on what

7 becomes necessary.

8 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. First --

9 thank you -- Richard?

10 MR. POTTS: Richard Potts. Is what

11 we're going through right now, is this official

12 voting, is it just kind of a formality? You know,

13 we're thumbs up, thumbs down? I mean, if we don't

14 agree to any of these lines, is it -- I mean, does

15 it get stricken from the process, or is it -- I

16 mean, are we bound by this if we're participating

17 in the process?

18 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Well, I think now

19 we are trying --

20 MR. POTTS: Or are we just practicing?

21 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: No, no, this wasn't

22 (simultaneous speaking) --
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: No, we've been live for a

2 while.

3 MR. POTTS: Okay. Well --

4 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: No, we've been live

5 for a while, but we haven't really hit a big -- a

6 concern, a major concern, until probably now --

7 MR. POTTS: Well, it sounds like C, E,

8 and F --

9 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yes.

10 MR. POTTS: -- you know, if we don't

11 work through these line -- will they be stricken

12 if we don't get our --

13 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Well, I think what

14 we'll do is revisit them maybe even after lunch

15 and look at them again. It's not -- we're going

16 to see what the groups want to be --

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Also, is there a

18 modification? If there a way to modify it to make

19 it acceptable? These are going to be your ground

20 rules, right, so we want to make sure that we

21 agree to them all.

22 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Right. Wait --
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1 just Rob first and then Manny.

2 MR. LUTER: Rob Luter with Lippert.

3 Doesn't the -- isn't party defined as the actual

4 participant in the working group? For example, if

5 Mark decides to dissent that doesn't mean that

6 someone else from MHARR couldn't make an issue of

7 it when the term sheet or the rule comes out,

8 correct?

9 Is the participant or the party the

10 entire organization that they represent?

11 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: I think, yes. The

12 participant is binding the party because that's

13 why you've been selected. You're a person, but

14 also as a representative of that --

15 MR. POTTS: Well, in a previous clause

16 party was defined as the person that's here and

17 voting.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Representing your

19 organization.

20 MR. POTTS: Okay.

21 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Here and voting but

22 as a representative of his or her organization.
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1 MR. WEISS: Yeah, I think that's

2 addressed by the second sentence of 2-B, each

3 organization shall be deemed a party to the

4 negotiation that's represented.

5 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yeah. So are we

6 okay on the semantics there? You're here, like

7 Mark, you're here representing your organization,

8 as well as yourself.

9 Manny, you had a question?

10 MR. SANTANA: Yeah, Manny with Cavco.

11 The part of the section that refers to the extent

12 they have the same substance and effect of the

13 term sheet, that means that if the term sheet we

14 produce is different from the final DOE rule, then

15 no negative comments, none of this other stuff

16 applies, so we can have counter stance, I guess,

17 to what DOE comes up with if it doesn't match the

18 term sheet; is that correct?

19 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, that's correct.

20 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: That would -- yeah.

21 Did everyone hear that he said? That if -- did

22 you hear what he said, Mark? Yeah, that clarifies
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1 that.

2 Yes?

3 MR. EZZO: I'm Mark Ezzo, Clayton Homes.

4 So here's my question; what we come up with as a

5 working group goes to ASRAC, and then DOE, and

6 then DOE publishes a proposed rule. Is it

7 possible that parts of the proposed rule are

8 different than what working group came up with?

9 MR. HAGERMAN: I don't think that's ever

10 happened before.

11 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: But it is possible.

12 MR. EZZO: The my follow up question to

13 that is, the reason I don't like C is because if

14 there are negative comments when it's being asked

15 for the comment period, those negative comments

16 help, I think, DOE and other recognize areas of

17 the proposed standards that need to be changed.

18 So the problem I have with C is if the

19 DOE proposal comes out and there's things in there

20 that are different than what we agreed upon, or

21 had a consensus upon, I would want to be able to

22 make comments during the comment period and say, I
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1 don't like this because, and I think that

2 information's helpful to DOE in reaching a final

3 rule.

4 MS. DICKENS: And I think you can. I

5 think that's (simultaneous speaking) --

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, if there was

7 something different, then I would think that you

8 can make those comments.

9 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Yeah, this is Kavita

10 Vaidyanathan of the DOE General Counsel's Office.

11 That is correct. If -- I haven't seen that in the

12 negotiated rule makings we've done, that the term

13 sheet that a working group comes out with is

14 different from the proposed rule, but if there are

15 differences, and your organization wants to put in

16 comments on those differences, you are -- you can

17 put those in and they don't go against the ground

18 rules.

19 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Lois, and --

20 MS. STARKEY: Just so -- if I

21 understand, so what we're talking about here is,

22 is that as a member of the working group if you
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1 object to something, or you didn't support

2 something that the working group consensused on,

3 then according to this, we're not -- we shouldn't

4 -- or under these rules, you can't comment in the

5 Federal Register.

6 So you could -- you know, Mark from

7 Clayton Homes could not comment on negatively on

8 something that was consensused at this group? And

9 I think that's where Mark is concerned. He's

10 concerned about the opportunity, or you know,

11 wanting to negatively -- assuming that MHARR,

12 let's say for example, and I'm not going to pick

13 you out, but is that they did not agree, they were

14 the one-third of this group that didn't agree.

15 Mark is sort of saying he would like the

16 opportunity to comment in the Federal Register. Is

17 that correct?

18 MR. WEISS: Comment and beyond that.

19 MS. STARKEY: Yeah.

20 MR. WEISS: And I just want make sure

21 that the counsel's comment is included in the

22 record of the proceeding, because Mark raised a
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1 separate issue that is import as well, and I think

2 that comment is helpful and clarifies that part of

3 it, to the extent that there's a discrepancy

4 between the recommendation and then the actual

5 final rule making, which happens in other context

6 that we've seen.

7 But it doesn't address the issue that I

8 raised initially, which relates specifically to C,

9 E, and F. My suggestions, since I am effectively

10 in opposition to this, my suggestion would be to

11 simply clarify stating that those within the final

12 consensus agree not to do these things, but if

13 you're outside that final consensus, I think you

14 have to have the right to participate in

15 proceedings that are otherwise permissible by law,

16 and that includes the APA rule making, that

17 includes potentially litigation after that, as a

18 matter of due process.

19 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. We hear --

20 MR. RAMIREZ: There's two separate

21 pieces there, right? One of them is further

22 action, but the other one is just general comment,
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1 and that was a little bit different at the end

2 there.

3 The one that -- I threw up a line up

4 there to try to address the part about the

5 comment, and let me make it a little larger so you

6 can see it.

7 Parties are not prohibited from

8 commenting on modifications to the consensus

9 recommended term sheet. Right? So if the group

10 has a consensus on a recommended term sheet, but

11 then later on it's something that's modified, you

12 still reserve your right to comment on it.

13 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: That's what Kavita

14 said.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, so that takes care

16 of that piece, but I heard something just a little

17 bit different there from what Mark was saying, as

18 far as further action, right? Legal action versus

19 comment?

20 MR. WEISS: It's not just further

21 action; it's comment and any action subsequent to

22 that.
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1 My point is if you're not part of the

2 consensus, you shouldn't have to accept in silence

3 a rule making that you disagreed with on this

4 committee, just by virtue of having participated

5 in it, even in dissent.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, because I struggle

7 with some of that because what we're talking

8 about, when we're talking about consensus, we're

9 talking about the levels of consensus, and that

10 lowest level would be that you would not agree but

11 will support, and then you have the blocking

12 piece, and we're going to strive, we're going to

13 do our best -- hopefully this never even comes up

14 -- we're going to strive to get that 100 percent.

15 But in the event that we don't, it might

16 be something less than that, and we've seen it

17 where folks have reached agreement but there's

18 been one or two people that have said no. Right?

19 That's a consensus recommendation from

20 the committee, so then how do you -- the part that

21 I'm struggling with, as a facilitator, is then how

22 do you then go and file a lawsuit on it, right?
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1 But we'll get back to you. You've been

2 very patient with your hand up, so go ahead.

3 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Lowell, you have a

4 comment?

5 MR. UNGAR: Yeah, Lowell Ungar. Yeah, I

6 do think there's two separate issues here. The

7 one that Mark raised -- and that added sentence is

8 fine, but I also think right before it, it says to

9 the extent they have the same substance and effect

10 and term sheet. If they don't have the same

11 substance and effect as a term sheet, it already

12 doesn't apply. So I think the added sentence is

13 completely redundant and unnecessary.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

15 MR. UNGAR: That said, I don't object to

16 it. It also doesn't address Mark's issue, which

17 I'm somewhat sympathetic, and I can see either

18 saying specifically if you're not part of the

19 final consensus that C, D, and E don't apply, or

20 else instead of agrees one could say expects, or

21 something a little weaker, to indicate that the

22 intention is that this be a consensus document and
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1 that we would then all agree to it, but leave open

2 that if you don't agree that there may -- you

3 know, it may be hard for the organization which

4 adamantly opposes the final document to then not

5 do anything about it.

6 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Any other comments?

7 MR. ROY: Yeah, Robin Roy. I think

8 we're back to the question of what defines a

9 consensus, and what the restrictions are. That's

10 why I was trying to be very explicit with it

11 earlier on, and there's a benefit to having a

12 consensus, which the way I would define it is

13 slightly different. You don't have to support,

14 but it means no one is objecting to it, and that's

15 100 percent no objecting.

16 I understand that's a very heard

17 threshold to get to, and I want to have this group

18 be able to move something to DOE, which reflects

19 that less than unanimity, but at the same time I'm

20 very respectful of Mark Weiss's position about the

21 minority positions being able to take further

22 action.
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1 We'll be happy with any of these

2 definitions at NRDC, this is -- but I think we

3 need to get that very, very clear, and we're not

4 there yet.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: But this is a perfect

6 example of hopefully how this process is going to

7 work, right? Where if there are concerns we're

8 going to do our best to talk about it, and try to

9 address it, right?

10 So Lionel [sic] came up with the

11 suggestion up there where it says each party

12 expects not to file negative comments, changing

13 agrees.

14 Does that soften it enough for you,

15 Mark?

16 MR. WEISS: In short, no. I appreciate

17 the effort, definitely. You know, I spent a long

18 time arguing about words and what they mean, and I

19 just think --

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Give me a word then.

21 MR. WEISS: The approach I suggested is

22 very simple; if you're not part of the final
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1 consensus, and that's -- you know, that's a pretty

2 clear yes or no situation -- if you're not part of

3 the final consensus you have no waived any of your

4 rights.

5 MR. DENNIS: So just to clarify; my

6 understanding is if you're -- and just to clarify

7 for me, if you are thumbs down and it passes,

8 because we've all agreed that that's consensus,

9 you're part of the consensus at that point, even

10 if you're thumbs down, right? If it comes out

11 with everyone -- you know, more than -- so that's

12 just for me a definitional thing.

13 I understand that you're still part of

14 the consensus even if you're a no, if you define

15 consensus to mean all the yes's and no's add up to

16 more than two-thirds. Is that --

17 MR. RAMIREZ: That's exactly what I was

18 saying earlier, that's what I was struggling with.

19 Regardless of what that threshold is, right,

20 unless it's 100 percent.

21 MR. DENNIS: And I want to just kind of

22 build, because I'm very uncomfortable with -- I
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1 mean, I think that when you read a Notice of

2 Proposed Rule Making you say, okay, this is a two3 third consensus, everyone agreed to this

4 processes, we agreed. In the case, hypothetical

5 case, we dissented, here's why we dissented.

6 It might be like a line on the term

7 sheet, but you say because, you know, X. You

8 know, this is going to cost X, Y, Z, and this is

9 you know, why we're unique, and we want to put

10 that information out there, so that other people

11 can understand the process.

12 I think that kind of restricting it and

13 saying two-thirds of the people on this say yes,

14 and then all of a sudden you're shut down from

15 kind of explaining why you may have dissented. I

16 just think it's kind of overly un-transparent, and

17 I don't think that there's any problem -- if we're

18 all coming here to the table and saying we're part

19 of the process, we agreed to be part of the

20 process, it came out this way; why restrict kind

21 of the information sharing of what happened? I

22 just don't see it as productive, in any case.
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1 I mean, it's nice not to have anyone say

2 anything bad about something, but I don't see why

3 -- I mean, who even reads the Federal Register,

4 first of all, but --

5 MR. RAMIREZ: And you admitted to it?

6 MR. DENNIS: Only when I'm billing

7 hourly every day. But I just -- I don't see -- I

8 think it's overly restrictive. I think it should

9 be nice, that we should say we're part of this

10 process and we don't ideally want to just be

11 bashing it, and everything like that, or if

12 there's some other way to reach agreement.

13 But just to say I'm not going to make

14 any comment that might be construed negative

15 because I was part of the process, I think that

16 that would make me - - people would not want to be

17 part of the process. It doesn't make a lot of

18 sense to me to have that in there. But -- my

19 opinion.

20 MS. VAIDYANATHAN. This is Kavita

21 Vaidyanathan, DOE General Counsel's Office. I

22 don't know if all the parties understand this, or
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1 maybe you all do. I just wanted to clarify that

2 because these are public meetings, the working

3 group meetings, if there are -- if there is a

4 negative vote by one of the parties, or there are

5 comments that go against the consensus, that will

6 be in the public record and that will be a part of

7 the public record for the proposed rule making.

8 So the public will know if one of the

9 parties was against some part of the proposed rule

10 making. I don't -- if that wasn't clear --

11 MR. DENNIS: So when it says -- so just

12 as clarification again -- I'm sorry -- if we said

13 during this process, somebody said we're no voting

14 because of this, and then it came out as a rule

15 under these guidelines, would then not be able to

16 say, hey, by the way, go look at the record, we

17 don't agree to this.

18 Would that be construed as an adverse

19 action, or not support, or a negative comment, to

20 point out in the record that you had given this

21 information -- it just seemed -- I mean, the whole

22 thing just adds all these gray -- I mean, like I
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1 said, any lawyer could get around this and anyone

2 could defend themselves for saying pretty much

3 anything under these -- the way I read these.

4 But it just doesn't seem to be along the

5 spirit of, you know, transparent rule making

6 processes to say you're going to participate, and

7 then by participating you take out your voice if

8 you're not one of the -- if you're a minority in

9 that consensus process.

10 I don't see the productivity in that,

11 but again, I guess the question is if you point

12 back to the record would that be considered

13 negative, and some people would say yes and some

14 people might say no. So I don't know.

15 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: We've got a number

16 of people talking. So let me just -- Lionel, and

17 then Eric, and then Manny.

18 MR. UNGAR: Lowell Ungar.

19 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Oh, Lowell. Sorry.

20 MR. UNGAR: That brings up a question;

21 you said that it will be part of the public

22 record; does that mean that when DOE is doing a
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1 rule making based on the terms of reference, they

2 would regard everything that was said in these

3 meetings as a public comment in that rule making,

4 and consider it as a comment in the rule making

5 process?

6 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: That actually I'm not

7 sure of. I would have to look back on how the

8 negotiations within the working group were

9 considered within the proposed rule, and I can

10 look back on that and after the break let you

11 know.

12 MR. UNGAR: Then I was going to throw

13 out another -- since my first suggestion didn't

14 work, I was going to throw out another suggestion.

15 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: And I'll call you

16 by your right name.

17 MR. UNGAR: That another way of doing

18 this would be, again, C, E, and F, I guess that

19 each party that is in concurrence with the

20 consensus recommendation on the term sheet would

21 agree to these things, and not everybody.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: So you're saying to
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1 reverse it? So instead of the folks that are

2 opposed to it, it's the people that did support

3 it, would not do it.

4 MR. UNGAR: I was saying, yeah, anybody

5 who was in agreement -- I mean, it's even hard to

6 do the semantics since it's a consensus, but we're

7 positing a situation which is perhaps unlikely,

8 that we declare it's a consensus even though not

9 everybody agrees with it, but that each person

10 who's in concurrence with that -- with the final,

11 not the everything going along, but with the final

12 consensus on the term sheet, would agree to these

13 things.

14 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. Eric?

15 MR. LACEY: Eric Lacey. I had a very

16 similar comment to Lowell. I've been involved in

17 a lot of settlements, but I've never been involved

18 in this process, and I think what's making some of

19 us uncomfortable, and making me a little

20 uncomfortable, is kind of pre-supposing that

21 you'll be 100 percent okay with every provision

22 that's in this settlement, and I don't think
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1 anyone will be 100 percent satisfied, and I think

2 that's part of the point of this process.

3 I also -- on the other hand, I also

4 wonder if we can't come to a good agreement, if we

5 aren't all kind of diving into this with the

6 assumption that we'll all be bound in some way by

7 the end. What Lowell had suggested, that maybe

8 you apply this only to the signatories of the

9 agreement.

10 I've been in settlements before where

11 you have kind of one class of signatories that

12 say, we generally agree with this consensus, we

13 don't agree with every part of it, but you know,

14 thumbs up overall, and then you have another class

15 that says, you know, this group agrees not to

16 oppose, and then maybe you have another group that

17 says this group has one or two issues.

18 But again, there's some tension here

19 because I'm not sure this process will be

20 effective, or even necessary, if folks are allowed

21 to sit back and not have some kind of stake in it.

22 So I don't want to -- I mean, I think I
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1 understand the general idea behind here, and that

2 is getting everybody to have a stake in here so

3 that we work toward achieving a consensus, rather

4 than just sitting back and taking shots at it,

5 with all of your options still available at the

6 end.

7 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Manny?

8 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco. You

9 know, I think that what's at issue here isn't so

10 much for 4C about the negative comments it's more

11 4E. You know, if -- I think the whole no negative

12 comment was supposed to get the parties of the

13 consensus committee to agree to not take adverse

14 action, and I think that we should maybe strike 4C

15 and focus on 4E, because we're just going to do

16 this again a couple bullet points down.

17 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. Scott, did

18 you have a comment?

19 MR. DRAKE: No, go ahead.

20 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay.

21 MR. WEISS: I'm comfortable with

22 Lowell's suggestion. I mean that's basically what
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1 I'm getting at.

2 The bottom line here is I don't want to

3 -- again, I pre-suppose nothing, but I don't want

4 to waive the rights of my organization based

5 merely on my participation in the discussions,

6 even if I dissent from the final result. I think

7 my putting it that way; the signatories of the

8 final result agree to be bound by the

9 prohibitions. I think that addresses the issue.

10 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: I hear you -- I

11 want to just mention something. The thing is,

12 just -- the process works to push people closer to

13 consensus because those other options may not be

14 there -- just for a moment -- and so sometimes

15 some creative ideas come out whereas possibly you

16 could say, well, I don't have to because I can

17 hold off and I'm not going to be involved in

18 moving this closer because I'll just step back and

19 I'll be ready to oppose, which is closer to the --

20 you know, like the union president is in the

21 hospital and he gets a get well card and he said

22 we voted in favor of you ten to three. How do you
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1 feel?

2 So I think it's -- just to think about

3 that too, that process tries to get people to try

4 as hard as they can to reach a resolution.

5 MR. WEISS: But the flip side of that is

6 -- and someone, I'm not sure if it was Lowell or

7 Eric, but the flip side of that is you also don't

8 want to push people out the door.

9 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: True.

10 MR. WEISS: By saying that, hey, if

11 you're a part of this you're stuck.

12 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: I hear you.

13 Did you have some comments?

14 MR. RAMIREZ: I was going to look at a

15 modification up here based upon what Lowell had

16 suggested for voting members in concurrence of

17 switching it around. Voting members in

18 concurrence agrees to file negative comments,

19 versus each party agrees.

20 Does that -- into Manny's point, where I

21 think the bigger battle, it sounds like the

22 concerns is more on the ability to take action,
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1 right in E? Which I would address it more in E.

2 MR. DENNIS: I'll just say from a

3 practical -- why I would have difficulty, I think,

4 supporting is it say, you know, we represent, like

5 I said, 900 different co-ops; say one of the CEO's

6 calls up my CEO and says, hey, we don't -- you

7 know, Keith is a good guy, he's trying his

8 hardest, but we have some problem with this, we

9 want to put a comment in, we want you to put a

10 comment in. I don't have the authority to say

11 that's not going to happen.

12 I didn't come here with that authority,

13 now I'm looking at this and I'm saying, okay, now

14 I need to go talk to my CEO, and say, you know,

15 everything I do in there is going to bar us from

16 making comments that might be viewed as negative.

17 Bar us from anything that might be viewed as some

18 action to inhibit, and bar us from any lawsuit.

19 I mean, I think I could get away from

20 it, because you know, where it says party there's

21 an or, and it says or part of your organization.

22 I could say I'm in the technical team, and there's
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1 a government relations team, I'm not in the CEO's

2 office, and so all this is kind of moot.

3 But again, I just don't think it's a

4 constructive way to run these things because it

5 does, you know, make it seem like, well, maybe I

6 shouldn't have even come here if that's -- you

7 know, let everyone work it out and then -- I mean,

8 I don't -- I'm kind of new to these processes, but

9 it puts me in a very difficult situation, a very

10 uncomfortable situation, to say on behalf of my

11 entire organization we won't write any negative

12 comments even if we don't agree, or don't vote

13 negative and find out later that one of the many,

14 many members has a big problem with that, and I

15 made a mistake.

16 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yes, Ishbel?

17 MS. DICKENS: So maybe we can just sort

18 of take a breath here and think about things a

19 little differently.

20 We knew we were coming to a negotiated

21 rule making session, and using the term negotiated

22 sets it in a different context from other rule
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1 making, so there's an understanding that we're in

2 here to collaborate, cooperate, and to the extent

3 possible get to that 100 percent.

4 So I think we have to come in here with

5 a little bit of a different understanding of what

6 we're doing. We're -- it's the whole what not why

7 thing. So rather than just sort of play around

8 with word- smithing, and looking at these few

9 little sections right now, I'm not sure we can

10 just have them pending and move forward a little

11 bit more with some of the other discussion and

12 maybe have all of us -- and maybe just talk a

13 little bit about what negotiated rule making mean,

14 and why are we here, and what are we hoping to get

15 out of it, as opposed to nitpicking some words.

16 Because there will be things absolutely

17 that we won't all agree on, but negotiated rule

18 making is a particular process that's set up to

19 allow us to get as close to 100 percent every time

20 as possible, and I think maybe we need to just

21 sort of think about that a little bit more.

22 MR. DRAKE: Do we make the consensus --
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1 sorry, Scott Drake -- do we make the consensus 100

2 percent? If you're going to bind the one-third

3 that may possibly disagree with these three C, E,

4 and F, do we change the consensus to 100 percent

5 and not worry about that?

6 MR. WEISS: Well, that's one way to do

7 it.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: I think we've got a few --

9 Robert's been pretty patient.

10 MR. LUTER: Rob Luter with Lippert.

11 Exclamation point on 100 percent, but just an

12 observation; do we have so little faith in the

13 rest of this process that we don't think the

14 public comment period can withstand a dissent? I

15 mean, it's a different audience, that this

16 dissenting opinion is in front, it's either

17 persuasive or it's not. There's going to be a

18 decision made and we're going to move on down the

19 highway.

20 Nothing's going to prevent anybody from

21 starting a lawsuit because they don't like what

22 they see. Nothing would prevent anyone from
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1 inviting a member of the public to basically

2 advocate for their position while sitting here.

3 So why are we really even worried about it?

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, let me -- I'm sorry

5 -- go ahead, please.

6 MR. LUTER: Do we feel that when the

7 word gets word out that this dissenting opinion

8 came from a participating member, is it going to

9 carry any more weight? Probably not. He had his

10 opinion, or she had their opinion in this meeting,

11 they weren't part of the group in the affirmative.

12 Okay. They get another swing during the public

13 opinion period. If it doesn't work out, it

14 doesn't work out.

15 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: I heard you.

16 Manny?

17 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco. You

18 know, I think -- would it help if we made a

19 distinction between commenting on the proposal and

20 other adverse action, like a lawsuit, or anything

21 like that?

22 Why say we can't make a proposed
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1 suggestion; there's a big step between that and

2 taking additional action.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Which is E, right? Yeah.

4 MR. WEISS: Just answering for myself,

5 our organization, since I raised the issue.

6 Unfortunately, no, I think it has to cover C, E,

7 and F for us to agree to it.

8 I hate to raise yet another issue, but

9 if it's -- well, it's related to this.

10 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: You're going to --

11 MR. WEISS: Yeah, it's related to this

12 so I'm going to, and that is as to the procedural

13 rights of dissenters, and again, this pre-supposes

14 nothing, but the procedural rights of dissenters

15 within this process, in other words, is there

16 going to be an opportunity within the work product

17 of this committee for a dissenting document?

18 Minority report, if you will; whatever it's

19 denominated.

20 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Eric?

21 MR. LACEY: Eric Lacey. Just trying to

22 think outside the box a little bit here, because
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1 it seems like we're kind of running in circles.

2 If you've got -- first, I think the

3 process won't work unless everybody has a state in

4 it. I think Ishbel put a very good point on that,

5 that it is a negotiation, and if I know a party is

6 not negotiating in good faith, I will not

7 negotiate with them. If I don't think that

8 they're going to agree to something, or that

9 they're coming at this with some room to move, so

10 to speak, then they shouldn't be part of the

11 negotiation.

12 I think kind of a follow up to that is

13 if you get 90 percent through this process and you

14 decided you just cannot be okay with the consensus

15 -- let's say your thumb was down on every single

16 thing when every other person's thumb was up, at

17 that point could you withdraw from the process,

18 withdraw from the agreement, and send off on your

19 own. You wouldn't be a signatory to it, you could

20 -- you know, maintain your legal rights, or

21 whatever.

22 I'm trying to -- I want this process to
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1 work, very much, and I think -- it's hard to agree

2 to all the term sheets before you have the final

3 negotiation.

4 Usually in a settlement, that's part of

5 the negotiation, is what is the term sheet. You

6 agree not to challenge it, and so on, and here

7 we're kind of doing that backwards. But I see the

8 value in that, because then you're on the hook a

9 little bit, and people are forced to negotiate,

10 and I would be more comfortable with that if I

11 knew that everybody was in this and had that

12 stake.

13 Anyway, that's what I'm throwing out

14 there, and I'm asking, actually; maybe General

15 Counsel could fill us in. Would it be an option

16 to withdraw if you felt like your interests were

17 so completely misrepresented by this, by an

18 eventual settlement, that could you withdraw your

19 name from the committee, and maintain those

20 rights?

21 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Kavita?

22 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: In the ground rules,
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1 in two subsection C, it does enable a working

2 group member to resign from the working group if

3 you feel that you can't represent your

4 organization, or you feel that your organization

5 isn't being represented fairly, you can decide to

6 resign.

7 MR. DENNIS: So I think that kind of

8 these, kind of, workarounds, like at the last

9 minute -- so if somebody really wants to cause

10 problems, they can cause problems. They can drop

11 off at the last minute and then do a lawsuit

12 anyway.

13 If my organization wants to do a

14 lawsuit, and I said that they -- you know, I had

15 agreed to this, you can look at this and you can

16 drill holes in it, and they'll file a lawsuit and

17 be like this isn't legal anyway.

18 So I think that the best solution would

19 just be to say, everyone is working in good faith,

20 like it says when we signed up, I think there's

21 plenty of things saying we're not supposed to be

22 not operating in good faith, and just get rid of
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1 these kind of controversial things that bind us,

2 frankly, well over my head in my organization to

3 say I'm going to stop our free speech rights on

4 Notice of Proposed -- I mean, it's something that

5 -- it's just -- it doesn't seem necessary, it

6 doesn't seem productive, and seems to just kind of

7 be a little bit out of place, I think, for what

8 we're trying to do.

9 So I would suggest just some

10 aspirational language that we're all here

11 negotiating in good faith, and the intent is to,

12 you know, go with the consensus.

13 But to try to, like, add something that

14 feels like legalistically binding our whole

15 organization to not comment, or do anything, seems

16 -- and when it's so fluffy that anything -- you

17 could shoot holes in it legally anyway, or just

18 drop out at the last minute, or find some other

19 kind of strange way to deal with it, it would just

20 be easier just to kind of not have that, for us at

21 least.

22 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Mark?
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1 MR. WEISS: I would agree with that

2 suggestion as well. I think that's probably

3 actually the most pragmatic thing to do.

4 You know, you talk about good faith, and

5 we're all here acting in good faith, and

6 negotiating in good faith, but an after the fact

7 lawsuit over something like this, by the time a

8 lawsuit gets up and -- if one were to occur, gets

9 up and going and decided, this is the -- this

10 things going to be potentially through the

11 pipeline and out.

12 You know, it could take years for a

13 lawsuit just to vindicate the rights of a

14 participant to this while the train is potentially

15 moving.

16 You know, trying to get an injunction is

17 a tall order. So I think we should simply drop

18 these provisions and not pre-suppose anything, and

19 all of us by entering this process agree to act in

20 good faith.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me -- I'm hearing what

22 the concerns are, and I think that what you all
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1 are talking about would address obviously your

2 concerns, but I think that the point that Eric's

3 bring up then is dropped off the table. Right?

4 Which again is very valid, is realistically you're

5 getting two bites at the apple then, right?

6 Let me make this as palatable as

7 possible in case my lawsuit doesn't hold up, and

8 then I'll go file a lawsuit and maybe try to get

9 it even better, right?

10 I think that's kind of along what you're

11 getting at there. In any negotiations you want to

12 know, hey, I'm in this thing because I know I'm

13 going to be bound to it.

14 Not only that, I think that there's a

15 few -- there's going to be quite a few issues,

16 there's not -- we're not here to deal with just

17 one little piece, right? One little rule.

18 There's like a bunch of little subsets of it, and

19 we're going to have negotiate each issue, each

20 component of it.

21 So a lot of times when we're looking at

22 negotiations, you're not looking at, I don't like
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1 this negotiations, I don't like this deal, because

2 of this one little aspect. You look at it in a

3 broad context of it. Right?

4 So one thing that I would -- I'm

5 exercising, or giving an example, of what are my

6 rules, right? Address the elephant in the room.

7 I'm willing to throw this out there in front of

8 everybody, but one thing that I would suggest here

9 is that maybe we do take a quick break, and the

10 reason I'm thinking that is because I want to see

11 if there's a possibility to do something along the

12 lines, where ultimately where the signatories then

13 are bound by C, E, an F.

14 Kind of to Eric's point that it is

15 reversed, right?

16 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: There are a few

17 folks that have a few comments before this break.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh, sure. Definitely.

19 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Because this is

20 important. I mean, this is how we operate.

21 Now who was it that had -- Rob? You had

22 a comment?
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1 MR. ROY: Robin.

2 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Robin. Well, your

3 placard's up --

4 MR. ROY: I do. There could be others

5 too.

6 Eric's point, I want everybody here to

7 negotiate in good faith, and I expect that

8 actually they are. They're putting some fair

9 amount of effort into it.

10 Back to Ishbel's question, which I think

11 is a fantastic one; what is it we're trying to do

12 here? There's a reason people have come together

13 here.

14 My expectation has never been that high

15 of probability that we will come up with a term

16 sheet. It's always a good probability, but what's

17 more important, more fundamentally valuable from

18 having this discussion, is we have this diversity

19 of people who really care about this industry and

20 these issues coming out and making their best

21 possible case.

22 Now that is really very interesting for
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1 DOE, and Navigant to hear, and to work into some

2 of their analyses in case we can't come up with a

3 consensus.

4 So I don't think it's really entirely --

5 I do take your point, I think it's a really

6 interesting one, Eric, but I think if we have

7 somebody who throws out some issue that I care

8 greatly about and it doesn't prevail, and my

9 organization would like to sue later, or take some

10 negative position in the proposed rule, you're

11 going to be so much better equipped, because you

12 will have already heard this argument. You're

13 going to have headed it off right in that proposed

14 rule. You'll have heard it and you will have

15 addressed, so I'm going to lose.

16 I think that gives a reasonable

17 incentive, and that's why I don't really mind --

18 so I started off with this question about what

19 kind of consensus; I like the idea of having a

20 super majority not unanimity, bring forward a

21 proposal to ASRAC and to the Department. I think

22 that's really very useful.
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1 I think it's really useful also for

2 folks that are expressing some concerns, and I

3 thought would have some concern, with silencing

4 their negative opinions.

5 I don't really mind that. I think we

6 get what we need from this anyway, and C, E, and F

7 don't really buy that much. I don't mind these.

8 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: So Keith's proposal

9 is to take them out, is that what I'm hearing?

10 Just to use good faith and allow -- that's what

11 I'm hearing. Yeah?

12 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's this.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. You know what --

14 I'm sorry; there was more comments?

15 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: (Simultaneous

16 speaking) more comments and then have a break.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Please.

18 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Lois had comment.

19 MS. STARKEY: I'm okay with that too,

20 but I would expect, and maybe we need to look this

21 a little closer, that those who do dissent, or do

22 thumbs down come up with an alternative. That's
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1 really what I think would be valuable from the

2 no's, because they have a perspective, and it's a

3 perfectly appropriate perspective, but I would

4 like to have a really good alternative and make

5 that clear.

6 I mean, I know it came out and that's

7 what we expect when the no's, but I think maybe if

8 we -- maybe there's ground rules here that we can

9 -- we can maybe take five minutes and look at it,

10 and maybe take those three items out, but really

11 strengthen the intent that we do try to get

12 consensus by the negatives bringing a positive

13 forward.

14 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Where there other -

15 - yes?

16 MR. EZZO: Mark Ezzo. One thing we

17 haven't talked about that I think is important,

18 and I think it helps support the recommendation

19 that we strike some of these, is that the proposed

20 rule is going to be huge. It's going to have tons

21 of pieces to it and components to it. While

22 somebody might vote yes or this to the overall
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1 product, there may be a lot of parts of that they

2 have challenges with still.

3 So I wouldn't want that person to be

4 prohibited from making negative comments about

5 those parts of the rule that they don't -- they

6 still don't agree with.

7 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Any other comments

8 before we take a break to think about this? Are

9 there comments from the folks listening out there?

10 Oh, here's a comment.

11 Does agreeing to a legal -- I'm sorry --

12 does agreeing to A through F legally bind the

13 parties? I guess that's for Kavita. Does agreeing

14 to E through -- A through F -- I'm sorry -- A

15 through F, E through F is not -- A through F

16 legally bind the parties, Michael Dubliner.

17 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: I mean -- these

18 ground rules are the ones that (inaudible) working

19 group has come up with, and that you agree to in

20 the working group. For legal representation you

21 would have to talk to your own legal counsel.

22 I mean, I can't tell you -- I can tell
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1 you that DOE is going to be bound by these rules,

2 an we're going to go forward with the rules that

3 we agree to, and we're hoping that you all agree

4 to it too. But I can't give you legal counsel on

5 your own -- unfortunately, on your own

6 organization.

7 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. Before Mark,

8 and before the break, I want you to also think

9 about what Ishbel said, in terms of why we're all

10 here, and what a negotiated rule making is.

11 I realize I didn't spend my usual three

12 hours going over what's negotiated rule making,

13 but it's an attempt to really get all the right

14 people in the room to reach a rule they can live

15 with, a better rule than if the Agency just came

16 out with notice and comment, and -- because it

17 could have exhibit parte talks with everybody.

18 It's not as good a rule as the one where you

19 actually have the people in the room who could

20 make the decisions, everyone here.

21 My only concern, whatever is decided, is

22 that everyone really wants to push as far as they
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1 can to that kind of rule, that actually will be

2 economical and efficient, keep the industry going,

3 keep the consumers, etcetera.

4 We've got a lot of goals, that it will

5 work, and my only concern not -- you know, without

6 agreeing to everything is making sure that you go

7 that extra mile, as opposed to saying, yeah, I

8 don't like that; I'll be ready -- I can vote, I'll

9 be in the minority, and you haven't gone that

10 extra bit to try to reach it.

11 But my sense is we should spend, what,

12 about a half hour to think about this and come

13 back, or do you combine them with lunch?

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, we could break for

15 lunch here after all comments. We'll squeeze in

16 any more comments.

17 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yeah.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: But what do you all think

19 of maybe breaking for a little bit of an early

20 lunch? Nice.

21 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. The reason

22 is, I think this is important. This is the first
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1 major decision you're going to make, and I think

2 it's important.

3 The other suggestion of going to six and

4 seven, you'll see they're not as controversial,

5 but we can actually go through -- we can even do a

6 neutral facilitator, that's on page four. We'll

7 work with all the parties to ensure that the

8 process runs smoothly. The facilitator serves at

9 the will -- see, the will, of the working group.

10 And if I mangle anyone else's name, I may be

11 seeing other employment.

12 But anyway, is that agreeable, the

13 facilitator? Okay.

14 Now, let me just finish this part, so

15 we'll just -- meetings on six, the FACA and the

16 NRA here is Negotiated Rule Making Act, as opposed

17 to other issues, and DOE policy, the negotiation

18 will be conducted under the Federal Advisory

19 Working Group Act, and the Negotiated Rule Making

20 Act, and the Department of Energy's Negotiated

21 Rule Making Policy, Open Meetings, negotiated

22 sessions will be announced in a Federal Register -
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1 - we heard about that -- prior to the meeting and

2 will be open to the public.

3 Meetings summaries; the proceedings will

4 be captured through meeting transcripts and you've

5 met Natasha, the smiling lady over to my right.

6 Summaries of working group meetings will be

7 prepared by the facilitators for the convenience

8 of the working group. They will be fairly

9 succinct. We won't get into all the nuances of

10 this rich discussion. It will be more of the

11 agenda and certain issues, if they're been

12 resolved.

13 They could be -- they shall not be

14 approved by the working group, and shall not be

15 construed as the official record.

16 In the absence of consensus parties

17 shall not be bound by positions taken or accepted

18 during these negotiations.

19 Oh, this is interesting -- no

20 photographs may be taken during the meetings

21 without the approval of the working group.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: You can take my picture.
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1 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. So if we

2 want photos we'll make sure all know about it and

3 dress appropriately. Okay. Is that all right?

4 This part?

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Six A, B, and C.

6 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Six A, B, and C.

7 Okay. Then seven, future amendments; working group

8 members may proposed modifications to this

9 document with due consideration given such

10 proposals. I would assume that's all right.

11 Okay. So we basically have four 4C, I

12 guess E and F. I don't know -- D? D says that

13 DOE will consider all relevant comments; I'm not

14 sure that that's controversial.

15 MR. ROY: Robin Roy --

16 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's not ours --

17 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: That's their

18 choice? Okay. So we'll agree.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: So is D okay then?

20 MR. ROY: Robin Roy, I think we also

21 have a 4G which Lois put on the table, which I

22 think was a really wise proposal. A really,
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1 really smart one that gets to a number of these

2 issues, and that is for those who are in dissent

3 to be a bit formal in what they're dissenting on.

4 That will force a degree of not just throwing sand

5 in the gearbox.

6 So maybe a subgroup over lunch can come

7 up with what the 4G might look like, led my Lois,

8 no doubt.

9 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: You don't get to

10 eat.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: So who's going to have

12 lunch with Lois?

13 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Lunch with Lois.

14 Yes. Rob? Yeah.

15 MR. LUTER: Rob with Lipper. Just a

16 comment on D. It suggests that DOE will make

17 modifications are necessary; who decides what's

18 necessary based on the comments? That I guess

19 presumes the comments are substantive and

20 persuasive. That's not always the case.

21 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: This is Kavita

22 Vaidyanathan --
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1 MR. WEISS: This is during the APA

2 process, right?

3 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Right. So --

4 MS. DICKENS: So wouldn't DOE just

5 remove that actual section, because we have no

6 control of what DOE does, and we have no control

7 over what the comments are, so I don't think we

8 can -- I don't think we should approve or

9 disapprove this --

10 MR. WEISS: I think that's what the law

11 is anyway, so --

12 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: This is what's

13 required - - I mean, DOE is required to consider

14 all comments and make modifications.

15 MR. LUTER: (Simultaneous speaking) is

16 it regarding their consideration, it's regarding

17 making modifications as are necessary; do we know

18 what as are necessary really means?

19 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: It would be among

20 program and their technical assistance and general

21 counsel to decide what's necessary within the rule

22 making, and within the statutory confines of the
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1 rule.

2 MR. LUTER: So it's purely

3 informational, nothing new.

4 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. So is it --

5 is D agreeable then?

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Is there a harm in leaving

7 it in?

8 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Is there any harm -

9 -

10 MR. LUTER: In this context --

11 COURT REPORTER: Could you hit the mic,

12 please? Hit the mic.

13 MR. LUTER: I'm sorry. In the context

14 just presented, no.

15 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay.

16 MR. LUTER: It's -- I have no

17 disagreement with it.

18 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: So it stays in.

19 MR. LUTER: Yeah.

20 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. So what

21 we're really talking about now is C, E, F and

22 maybe a G to discuss a combination of lunch and
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1 discussion, and come back at 1:00 o'clock, and

2 we'll talk about it some more.

3 Yeah?

4 MR. WEISS: Just to close the loop for

5 now, I just wanted to be clear; I have no problem

6 with Lois's suggestion. As my prior question

7 indicated, I am concerned with the ability within

8 this process to submit, if you dissent, some kind

9 of comments or report within the process. So I

10 have no problem with that at all.

11 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yes, Manny

12 MR. SANTANA: This is Manny with Cavco.

13 Unrelated to 4C, and regarding the procedure, are

14 we bound by Robert's Rules of Orders, or anything

15 like that?

16 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: No.

17 MR. SANTANA: You know, with motions and

18 second --

19 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: No.

20 MR. SANTANA: No?

21 MR. RAMIREZ: We want to get it all out.

22 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: No, we -- just
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1 common sense. That's another book. No, it's not

2 -- we're an informal process.

3 Any other questions before we adjourn

4 for lunch and this discussion, and come back --

5 yes?

6 MR. UNGAR: Just a comment, not a

7 question. I certainly understand when Mark had

8 said earlier, in terms of you may not agree with

9 individual things, but I would expect that we're

10 here trying to -- you know, it won't be a series

11 of contested votes as much as trying to achieve

12 consensus, and if people who have to move off of

13 their initial positions and not get what they want

14 in order to achieve consensus, and if we've agreed

15 on a product, to go back and now to in another

16 forum contest those individual items that we

17 agreed to something less than what we wanted, to

18 me is exactly negotiating in bad faith.

19 That if we are agreeing, and again,

20 setting aside what Mark -- situation, which is

21 different then where we don't in the end agree,

22 but if we do agree to a compromise, then we need
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1 to stand behind the compromise.

2 That said, I'm fine with taking the

3 language out, or whatever modifications we make

4 that have been proposed so far, I'm not -- but in

5 terms of how these discussions go, in the end I

6 think we do need to stand behind the compromise

7 and not try to re-litigate it again in some of

8 other form.

9 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Yes?

10 MR. LACEY: From reading the actual NOPR

11 when I'm billing hourly, they do like add some

12 context. So if you put a negative comment on a

13 specific aspect, DOE might just kind of couch your

14 comment in -- like these guys were part of the

15 negotiated process, and you know, they could even

16 say, you know, they agreed to the overall package,

17 and then -- they do do that narrative.

18 So, you know, I think that the bogeyman

19 of like the comments changing the rule because

20 somebody didn't -- I mean, it just seems

21 completely unnecessary.

22 Again, like I think practically
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1 speaking, I think nobody could do anything about

2 it if I sent in a comment letter after this was

3 done and -- going to arrest me, or -- I mean, you

4 know, so I just think it's not productive, it's

5 not worth it to kind of have these extra, like,

6 things that really in the end really have any

7 force of law, or --

8 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Okay. Manny?

9 MR. SANTANA: You know, I -- Manny with

10 Cavco. I think in support of what Eric said a

11 little time earlier, if we don't have some

12 intention to come up with a negotiated -- with an

13 actual rule, and we don't say, well you know, we

14 intend to comply with C, E, and F. You know, I

15 intend to have this rule be what I think is the

16 best rule we can all come up with, you know, all

17 the stakeholders in the room, and understanding

18 that it might not be legally binding. So then we

19 have a couple of options, you know, we -- you

20 could either resign and then have as many negative

21 comments as you can, or if you determine that this

22 isn't binding, then you can still have your
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1 negative comments.

2 But you agreed to it up front because

3 this is what you want to try to do in good faith.

4 You want to try to come up with something that can

5 work for everybody, and I think that if you were

6 to look at the room, and try to come up with

7 sects, you know, there might not be any one sect

8 that's strong enough, or small enough, to be out

9 voted. You know?

10 So I think there's more than five

11 individual, you know, segments, so if -- and like

12 I said, for example, just the 15 that are here,

13 there probably aren't enough, you know -- there

14 aren't enough people in one group that all think

15 one way, and everybody else thinks the other way,

16 that they're going to get out voted, and there's -

17 - there's at least six of them, seven of them.

18 So I think that you have to be able to

19 agree to try this and accept this, just to kind of

20 keep this thing going.

21 You know, because we also have an energy

22 rule to come up with, besides this.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: We're negotiating the

2 negotiation.

3 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: All right. The

4 last word for now.

5 MR. WEISS: Okay. I'm really not trying

6 to belabor this, but addressing what Manny said,

7 again, the flip side of that is if you are a

8 dissenter why should you have to give up your

9 right to try to persuade others in that final

10 analysis, that final vote, simply out of fear that

11 you might be pulled into something that

12 constitutes a waiver of rights you would otherwise

13 have, and that's my concern.

14 If you have concern about that and you

15 drop out, well you don't have the right you

16 otherwise would have had to try to bring others to

17 your position.

18 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Well, on that note,

19 I think we've still got to wrestle with this

20 before we can move forward.

21 So let's have some lunch. Lunch with

22 Lois, or lunch with anyone and come back at --
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1 MS. STARKEY: I'm not buying though.

2 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: No, she's not

3 buying. I heard -- I don't know -- Pam may know;

4 is the cafeteria okay across the street? All

5 right

6 MR. RAMIREZ: There's also a Subway next

7 to the Dunkin Donuts in the basement.

8 MS. BARKAS HOFFMAN: Subway and Dunkin

9 Donuts. But come back at 1:00, is that -- and

10 we'll talk about it. Okay. But think about why

11 you're here and how we can move this ahead. Okay?

12 So we'll see you at 1:00 o'clock.

13 (A lunch break was taken.)

14 P R O C E E D I N G S

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Well, at lunch

16 actually --

17 THE ELECTRONIC RECORDING OFFICER: Can

18 you take the mic please?

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, sure. Thank you. It's

20 Eileen Hoffman. Welcome back.

21 At lunch, DOE has come up with some

22 ideas and I think you folks have as well, or have
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1 you; have you come up with anything?

2 MS. STARKEY: Well, sort of. I don't

3 think we could --

4 THE ELECTRONIC RECORDING OFFICER:

5 Microphone.

6 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Microphone.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, Lois or Louise, yeah.

8 MS. STARKEY: In talking to a few of

9 you, we don't know if we've come to a consensus on

10 eliminating (b), (d) and (e).

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

12 MS. STARKEY: Maybe put them on the

13 parking lot. But definitely I think everybody

14 agreed that we make a strong statement that

15 anybody who does thumbs down on an issue have a --

16 an alternative, be able to defend the alternative

17 and make an effort to convince the rest of us.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh, yeah, we'll definitely

19 allow for that.

20 That's going to be part of the process,

21 right?

22 MS. STARKEY: Yeah, I just want to make,
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1 you know --

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Underline it, yeah.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh.

4 MS. STARKEY: -- that that's really

5 underlined and made clear.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

7 MS. STARKEY: It's not just a question

8 of "Well, I don't agree," exactly.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh, no.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: And what was -- when you

12 started, what was it you had said, which letters?

13 MS. STARKEY: The one certain question -

14 -

15 MR. RAMIREZ: (Inaudible) yeah.

16 MS. STARKEY: -- (c), (e) and (f), to --

17 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

18 MS. STARKEY: -- maybe put those in the

19 --

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Put them in the parking

21 lot.

22 MS. STARKEY: -- parking lot --
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

2 MS. STARKEY: -- for the time being.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

4 MS. STARKEY: I think people -- there

5 were some -- a few people that spoke here strongly

6 about their concerns about it, but aren't willing

7 to give it up right now.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: I see. Okay. We also

9 have Kavita.

10 May I ask you to -- or Joe, you have

11 some thoughts, too.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, I had two thoughts.

13 One is easy, and one we can get into it a little

14 bit but --

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Your thing on?

16 MR. HAGERMAN: I think everybody can

17 hear me, right? So the first -- this is something

18 I took away -- is adding to the term sheet, that

19 the term sheet -- maybe under 4(a) or a new 4(h),

20 however you want to see that, that the term sheet

21 will include the votes of the vote count, which is

22 very common in the term sheets. The term sheets
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1 that we emailed everybody, they have the vote

2 count on there and the dissenting comments from

3 the numbers. One thing you will not see on the

4 current term sheets is any comments on people who

5 dissented in the vote. That's my first Strawman.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: You -- that was it?

7 MR. HAGERMAN: My second one is -- I

8 think Kavita is checked out. I think DOE could

9 feel comfortable with each party --

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Is this 4(c)?

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah, for --

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

13 MR. HAGERMAN: -- 4(c), (e) and (f). I

14 don't know how you want to word this, but non15 dissenting parties agree to not file negative

16 comments.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: So --

18 MR. HAGERMAN: So instead of each non19 dissenting parties.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: So non-dissenting parties,

21 people who've agreed to it -- agreed to or

22 abstained. Non-dissenting parties agree to not
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1 file negative comments.

2 MR. LUTER: Rob Luter from Lippert.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

4 MR. LUTER: What protections do I have

5 then if after this is all done I have some

6 epiphany or something comes to light that wasn't

7 discussed?

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah, so --

9 MR. LUTER: Now, I'm -- that's off

10 limits for discussion or dissent?

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Well, I mean, what --

12 MR. LUTER: Again, no presumptions here

13 but --

14 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. So think about it

15 this way: we'd hate for you to sit here and vote

16 "Yes" you support everything and then after we say

17 -- after we all reach a consensus on this -- on

18 the standard for you to walk away from here and

19 say, "Well, you know what? That's all junk. I

20 don't actually --

21 MR. LUTER: I don't disagree --

22 MR. HAGERMAN: -- vote for any of that."
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1 MR. LUTER: -- with you.

2 MR. HAGERMAN: It's a little bit not

3 negotiating in good faith, right? It's --

4 MR. LUTER: Is there a mechanism if some

5 new fact were to come up after the fact for

6 addressing that?

7 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Okay. This is Kavita

8 right now. Then maybe I don't understand the

9 question. So if there's --

10 MR. LUTER: Let's just say we vote to

11 support -- consensus that we support a particular

12 action?

13 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Okay.

14 MR. LUTER: And after the paper's put

15 together, something comes to light that suggests

16 that our decision was perhaps not -- or might have

17 been differently had this new fact been available,

18 is there a mechanism by which we can voice concern

19 or doesn't or do we have to rely on a surrogate

20 from the public to do that on our behalf?

21 MR. HAGERMAN: I think they could submit

22 that material for public comment --
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1 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Yeah, I think we can

2 --

3 MR. HAGERMAN: -- for consideration.

4 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: I think DOE can live

5 -- can agree to the fact that if there is some new

6 issue that comes up that changes your opinion on

7 something, you can certainly put that in for

8 public comment and we wouldn't consider that

9 necessarily as a negative comment that goes

10 against the Ground Rules.

11 MR. LUTER: Okay.

12 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: But we just want to

13 make sure that we're here because it's a

14 negotiated rulemaking. We're kind of here in good

15 faith to come out with --

16 MR. LUTER: Understood.

17 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: -- a consensus and

18 that if you -- if your organization has a certain

19 viewpoint and you decide to come to a consensus

20 and go away from that viewpoint, that in the end

21 that you're not going to come back and say, "You

22 know what? Even though I negotiated and I agreed
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1 on this viewpoint, that I'm going to go back to my

2 stance that we originally had." And that's what

3 we're hoping that this Working Group can come to.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: So would you like to

5 discuss the proposal that you heard on 4(h) if it

6 was or -- and changing -- I guess it's (c)?

7 And does it also change (e) and (f)?

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, the way I had

9 captured it was --

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively),

11 sure.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: -- on the first one, on

13 (a), I just added the line that Joe had mentioned

14 as far as the term sheet shall include the vote

15 and dissenting comments. That's where (a) is

16 talking about the term sheet and supporting

17 analysis.

18 And then (c), (e) and (f) modified to

19 have each non-dissenting party on both -- on all

20 three, (c), (e) and (f), yeah.

21 MR. UNGAR: Lowell Ungar. Can I ask?

22 When you mean -- say, "Non-dissenting," are you
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1 talking about non-dissenting from the final term

2 sheet, the whole package, or non-dissenting on

3 each individual issue?

4 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: This is Kavita

5 Vaidyanathan. I think we can agree to each issue

6 if that's what the Group -- I think that's what

7 the Group had concerns about was that if there are

8 issues that -- overall, they may agree to a term

9 sheet, but there are some -- there are certain

10 proposals within the term sheet that they haven't

11 agreed that have a dissenting vote on. That's

12 what I heard from the Group, but correct me if I'm

13 wrong.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, (inaudible).

15 MR. UNGAR: Well, and again, I can live

16 with any of the proposals that I've heard so far

17 today --

18 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Okay.

19 MR. UNGAR: -- so I -- but again, on

20 both of the last two comments, I mean, it seems to

21 me this is a -- referring to negotiating an

22 agreement here --
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

2 MR. UNGAR: -- and in an agreement, we

3 won't agree -- you know, we won't like everything

4 that's in the agreement presumably. And if we

5 negotiate an agreement and then each fight the

6 individual pieces of the agreement that we didn't

7 like, then we haven't actually achieved anything

8 that -- you know, unless we, in fact, come out of

9 here with an agreement that we can live with and

10 support as a package rather than trying to refight

11 each of the things.

12 There's kind of no point, you know. And

13 I have been involved in appliance standards

14 negotiation not -- under ASRAC under a more

15 informal process where after the fact, after we

16 signed the agreement, somebody said, "Oh, you

17 could have gotten more, that technically, you

18 know, there are information you didn't have that,

19 in fact, you -- you know, you could have argued

20 for a (inaudible) case," but, you know, that's --

21 you're always operating under limited information,

22 and that we abided by what we had agreed to. And
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1 I just -- again, I'm not so concerned about the

2 words. I'm just concerned that this be, in fact,

3 a negotiated agreement and that we come in this

4 intending to live with the deals we make.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Ishbel?

6 MS. DICKENS: Yeah, I'd like to echo

7 that. I think the way I understand "non8 dissenting" in this latest proposal was the people

9 that were thumbs down. People thumbs up and

10 thumbs sideways are part of the consensus

11 agreement --

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.

13 MS. DICKENS: -- for which we need two14 thirds majority anyway.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Correct.

16 MS. DICKENS: And only those who were

17 very negative be opposed and potentially will have

18 to come up with an alternative that we haven't

19 supported would be the ones that would be allowed

20 to take those stances.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Mark? Oh, okay.

22 MR. DENNIS: Yeah. I mean, I don't want
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1 to belabor the point too much, but I tend to agree

2 with what Robin was saying earlier about, you

3 know, this kind of -- getting to this does not

4 mean that there's no value in having a negotiated

5 process.

6 If people have negative comments later

7 or have serious issues and, you know, there needs

8 to be -- I think the process of having us all at

9 the table and working together in good faith,

10 which I think there's aspirational language in

11 kind of the signup to this and, also, I think we

12 could add aspirational language.

13 But I do think that the non-dissenting,

14 no-challenge kind of signing off right here on

15 potential actions makes -- you know, as a

16 conservative organization, makes it more likely

17 that we'll want to dissent to preserve that right.

18 So when I go brief my boss or the other teams in

19 my organization say, you know, "Here's the case

20 for why we should agree to this. It's" -- you

21 know, and they say, "Well, are you then giving up

22 your right to potentially do something later?"
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1 That changes the factor of whether we're saying,

2 "Okay. We're going to be much more conservative

3 in dissent."

4 Again, you know, I don't want to say

5 that that's going to happen or that that's what

6 we're trying to do or anything like that, just in

7 that case, that would be kind of part of the

8 decision-making process. What are we giving up?

9 I think it's unnecessary and again, you

10 know, I still think there's loopholes in all

11 stuff. So I think that kind of adding this -- you

12 know, I think also when you put out the notice to

13 be on the Group, you should say, "By the way, if

14 you participate in this, you're giving up your

15 rights to comment or challenge" because in

16 reality, you could always just sit in the back and

17 give your comments and not be binding yourself to

18 this and get the same outcome.

19 So, you know, I just think that this is

20 kind of overkill and it's also like not really

21 necessary to the process and adds this kind of

22 discomfort element and, also, a conversation that
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1 at least I'm going to have to have is to say, you

2 know, by deciding in this final thing to dissent

3 or not dissent, we're giving up this potentially

4 legal right, which that's still debatable. But I

5 just don't see it as necessary.

6 So it's just -- it added discomfort that

7 I don't think is necessary. I think we're all

8 working in good faith, that's why we're here, that

9 I don't necessarily see why we should be trying to

10 give up kind of due process rights and things like

11 that, in this context. It's just not worth it to

12 do that.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Any other comments? Yes.

14 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss, for MHARR. I

15 agree with Keith and I think the simplest way to

16 address this is to delete those sections. That

17 said, the language that's up there, yeah, in the

18 spirit of compromise, would be -- I do think

19 addresses the concern that I had which pertained

20 primarily to the final vote. That's the concern I

21 had: do we get to the end of this process and

22 somehow, you know, be dragged into waiving our
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1 rights post this process? So I think removal is

2 simpler, but I could live with that in terms of

3 gradations of consensus.

4 As far as offering alternative, I think

5 that's problematic. I think a dissenting party

6 should state the basis for their dissent to

7 whatever extent they deem appropriate. But

8 offering an alternative on some of these issues

9 might not be practical, probably won't be

10 practicable for some of us.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. And let me chime in

12 on a couple things. One of them is: I would want

13 to see if (a) -- if there's a problem with (a). We

14 might get that one done and maybe talk about (c)

15 and (f).

16 But even with the explanation of, you

17 know, consensus and how it operates, a lot of

18 times we'll do these temperature checks to see how

19 things are going and if your thumb is down, we

20 need to make sure that we get that dialog going.

21 And that's one of the reasons that we say you need

22 to be able to explain why and offer an
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1 alternative, right? Because it's easy, right?

2 It's easy to -- and I'll maybe give you

3 a little bit of leeway on that in a sense that it

4 doesn't necessarily have to be you either, right?

5 Somebody else in the room could say, "Well, what

6 about X, right?" You know, get the Group talking

7 and problem-solving. And that's what I was

8 talking about, the intellectual capital of this

9 room. You know, if we can figure this thing out,

10 it's almost like shame on us, right, that we can't

11 do it with the brainpower that we have in this

12 room. If we work at it, we should be able to,

13 right?

14 MR. LACEY: I really don't want to beat

15 a dead horse here. I think I'd be generally fine

16 with this direction, but I'd point out that this

17 gives a real incentive to dissent on everything,

18 whether you're on the high side or the low side.

19 The example I've been using at lunch is:

20 let's say we're debating a number

21 between 50, and 100 and a lot of people want 100

22 and a lot of people want -- some people want 50
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1 and the Group decides on 75. Well, what's

2 dissenting? Maybe dissents and says, "It should

3 have been 50. This is what I wanted." Well, that

4 then forces the other side to say, "Well, we

5 dissent also, and it should have been 100." And

6 so every time you get a dissenting vote, I'm

7 concerned you're going to get it -- and dissenting

8 on the other side.

9 And so I'm wondering if you want to go

10 down this direction of, you know, giving kind of

11 special rights to dissenting parties, as what

12 you're doing here, is to maybe include the range

13 that was discussed on each of these issues. You

14 know, if -- this is the consensus value of 75, you

15 know. The Group considered 150 and this was the

16 consensus value. This whole -- the whole business

17 of kind of carving out a special --

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

19 MR. LACEY: -- kind of second bite at

20 the apple just for people who dissent seems

21 contrary to the whole purpose of reaching of

22 consensus.
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: So my question is: what is

2 your -- what would your proposal be then?

3 MR. LACEY: I knew you were going to ask

4 that.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, it's one

6 (inaudible).

7 MR. LACEY: I mean, maybe the term sheet

8 shall include, you know, the consensus, the result

9 of the consensus and the range of values or, you

10 know, range of issues discussed.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Range of options?

12 MR. LACEY: Range of options, something

13 like that. I don't know if that works for

14 anybody.

15 MR. DENNIS: I would say that, you know,

16 that could -- if we didn't have these terms that

17 we're doing, that could be something that we could

18 look at in each different section and decide do we

19 include a range or do we include not a range and

20 get -- again, I think that this kind of thing and

21 the framework just doesn't need to be there. But

22 if it is, you're right, you're giving more rights
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1 to dissenters and you're giving incentive to

2 dissent.

3 And, you know, that just -- it seems to

4 me like you're creating all these kind of

5 incentives. And again, having these here, then it

6 gives the incentive for people to draw back at the

7 last minute if they're being, you know, concerned

8 that somewhere down the road there's something

9 they're not thinking about and they're going to

10 give their rights to comment, and it just creates

11 a lot of unnecessary kind of anxiety that probably

12 doesn't need to be there, given that -- we're all

13 hoping that it doesn't even ever come to this, so

14 we're hoping this whole discussion's just this --

15 like boogeyman that's out there. But, you know, I

16 think for this process, it's -- again, you know, I

17 don't want to beat a dead horse, but I don't

18 necessarily -- relevant or necessary.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Well, let's

20 take a temperature check on (a). Let me see a

21 show of thumbs on (a) of where you're at on that.

22 Is (a) -- can you approve (a)?
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1 (Call for show of thumbs.)

2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So that was a

3 temperature check, but it seemed like most the

4 folks are okay with that, so let's make it --

5 yeah?

6 MR. HAGERMAN: I just have one question

7 just for the Group is: the term sheet shall

8 include the vote, the range of option and the

9 dissenting comments.

10 Is that dissenting final comments for

11 the final term sheet or is that for each provision

12 of the term sheet? I believe it's just the final,

13 right?

14 MS. HOFFMAN: I think it's just the

15 final.

16 MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah. Okay.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: I think that's what --

18 MR. HAGERMAN: I just want to make sure

19 that's clear.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: It's just the final. And

21 from what Eric

22 MR. HAGERMAN: I don't know if anybody's
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1 had a --

2 MS. HOFFMAN: -- was saying he wasn't as

3 excited about having each one mentioned.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: Right, right.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Otherwise, you'll be

6 loading it up so.

7 MR. HAGERMAN: I mean, I don't know if

8 anybody's -- we emailed out the -- some example

9 term sheets this morning. I don't know if you've

10 had a chance to look at them. They can be as

11 short as seven pages. They can be as long as 23

12 pages. I mean, you know, I just don't want this

13 to be a monstrous document for no real reasons.

14 MR. SANTANA: Manny (ph) with Cavco.

15 If the dissenting comments are for the

16 final term sheet, how are we going to have the

17 range of options because the range is for each

18 individual item, right?

19 MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah, I sort of agree

20 with that, just in the nature of keeping this a

21 simple term sheet, that the range -- we might want

22 to think about the range of options and just say,
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1 you know, that the members per, you know, item on

2 the term sheet can decide whether they need to,

3 you know, put a range there or not.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: So are we talking about

5 striking that then?

6 MR. LACEY: Yeah. This is Eric Lacey

7 again. Yeah, I guess the idea behind putting a

8 range of options in there is that it recognizes

9 that there's probably a high number and a low

10 number, to go back to the 50-to-100 example, and

11 then nobody is the dissenter, you know, you have

12 the consensus and you have everybody else. And

13 everybody else is -- you know, may be on one side

14 or the other.

15 Maybe you don't have to include this on

16 everything and I don't even know if you need to

17 include the total vote on every one of these.

18 That's a lot of thumb counting. But, you know, at

19 -- maybe the -- you know, the final term sheet may

20 include the vote, the options considered and any

21 dissenting comment, you know, at the will of the

22 Committee or something like that but...
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John Cymbalsky

2 representing ASRAC. So I think what the ASRAC

3 Committee would like to see come out of here is a

4 really clean sheet of paper with the -- with what

5 you come to consensus on, not necessarily the

6 good, the bad, the what you did, why you didn't

7 agree or -- we do want the vote like how many

8 dissented, but if the motion carried based on what

9 described consensus as, they just want to know

10 what it is. I don't think ASRAC wants to get into

11 the position of evaluating options after you've

12 already voted something out of here. So I don't

13 think that should be considered.

14 The reason why one of these was 23 pages

15 long is because there's 105 recommendations so

16 each one just said -- just as an example, for

17 commercial HVAC units with coated coils will not

18 have to test. That was one. And there was

19 hundreds of others just like that. It didn't say

20 the options were X, Y and Z. It just said, "This

21 is what was voted out."

22 So I suggest we do the same here because
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1 the full ASRAC is not going to want to debate the

2 options or repeat what -- the work that you've

3 done. You basically vote it out and send the term

4 sheet forward.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So then the

6 verbiage that was out there was "The final term

7 sheet shall include a vote and dissenting

8 comments." So let's see a show of thumbs. And

9 this is for an approval or a rejection, right? And

10 this is a consensus final. Let's see a show of

11 thumbs if you're okay with 4(a).

12 (Call for show of thumbs.)

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: That's a unanimous

16 approval on that one.

17 Then on 4(c), (e) and (f), I'm going to

18 try -- I'm going to ask you for a final vote on

19 this. And just because I'm saying it's a "final"

20 meaning that it -- if folks approve it, fine,

21 we're done. If not, you know, depending on where

22 the thumbs are, if somebody's thumb is down, then
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1 we'll talk about it and then we could revote, we

2 could keep doing that, right? As long as there's

3 some additional dialog there. So -- and we're

4 trying to get comfortable with the process as well

5 as far as thumbs down so don't be afraid to throw

6 a thumbs down if we need some additional dialog.

7 So adding "non-dissenting" for (c), (e)

8 and (f), let me see a show of thumbs of where

9 you're at on at.

10 (Call for show of thumbs.)

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. I see a couple of

12 thumbs down, right? So either one that has the

13 thumbs down let's hear what you're thinking.

14 MR. DENNIS: I just -- I find that the -

15 - again, an incentive to dissent.

16 THE ELECTRONIC RECORDING OFFICER: Push

17 the microphone.

18 MR. DENNIS: And --

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, mic, mic.

20 MR. DENNIS: Oh. And incentive to

21 dissent and I really have a problem signing off

22 for my entire organization that unless I don't
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1 dissent on something, they won't be able to

2 comment. And we're talking about not -- you know,

3 I think that the other part, putting dissenting

4 comments in the term sheet, was trying to address

5 this. I think that that's inappropriate because

6 it just muddles things up. But I think it's

7 important that if you do have a dissent, don't put

8 it on the term sheet, but allow information to be

9 put in the NOPR under the couch that, you know,

10 you agreed to the overall thing but on this point,

11 you had this concern.

12 And if there's 1,000 people out there

13 who read the NOPR who have that same concern, they

14 might bring it up and say, "Wow, you know, this is

15 a concern." And I think that's part of the

16 process and that's what, you know, we should do as

17 part of its transparency.

18 So, you know, if it's -- now that you

19 know (inaudible) the comment from my organization

20 on any points because I've not dissented, then I

21 really do have an incentive to dissent if I have

22 any concern that any one of 900 members might call
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1 us up and say, "You need to comment on this." So

2 that's my main concern with, you know, having that

3 special kind of right to a non-dissenter is that

4 then it gets into incentive.

5 So I would rather see just these

6 stricken and maybe aspirational -- more

7 aspirational thing. We're all here to work in

8 good faith. And if we do find consensus as two9 thirds, we will, you know, inspire not to speak

10 badly or challenge, but I don't think that giving

11 up administrative procedure rights appropriate to

12 take part in a negotiation process.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Scott?

14 MR. DRAKE: I will echo that. I think

15 the way this is written you're actually giving a

16 disincentive to consent and I don't think that's

17 what we want to do. I think we want to drive to

18 consensus and this actually gives us a

19 disincentive to do that.

20 So I kind of like what Keith is saying,

21 it -- I wouldn't mind just pulling all three of

22 those and saying in good faith, we will negotiate
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1 and agree to the terms without anything legally

2 binding. Of course, this really isn't legally

3 binding anyway, but I understand what we're trying

4 to achieve, but I just don't like it to be

5 disincentive.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Uh-huh. Any additional

7 comments?

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John Cymbalsky.

9 So I guess I'll speak on behalf of the Department

10 now. The whole reason for doing negotiated

11 rulemaking is to avoid the lawsuit at the end of

12 the day. Now, it doesn't, as you said, preclude

13 you from doing that in any event.

14 But I think the whole spirit here is

15 that we're going to come to this consensus and, as

16 a group, agree with whatever the consensus is. If

17 you're a dissenter, then you can do all those

18 things. But I don't know how you could, in good

19 faith, sit here and say, "Yes," and then go poopoo

20 it once it's put in a public document. To me,

21 that's illogical.

22 Now, I understand associations have
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1 hundreds of members. It's generally a least

2 common denominator type of organization. You're

3 here on behalf of how many are in your group, but

4 there's nothing to say that except for East

5 Kentucky Power Cooperative and NRECA, you have 500

6 other members of NRECA who could comment all they

7 want. They're not at the table. So the guy in

8 South Carolina has a problem with it, let him

9 comment, but you don't comment and you don't

10 comment. I think what you're suggesting actually

11 just hijacks the spirit of what this Group's

12 supposed to be trying to do.

13 MR. LUTER: Rob, with Lippert. I don't

14 disagree with what you're saying, but we

15 established earlier this morning that as the

16 party, he represents the entire organization, and

17 we established that some other member of our

18 organization other than the guy sitting at the

19 table was bound by this as well.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, I'm not sure that's

21 true. So I think NRCA is bound by him because

22 he's NRCA. There could be a cooperative that does
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1 not take NRCA's position and they can comment.

2 MR. LUTER: Okay. You're suggesting

3 that a member of the organization.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't see that spelled

5 out in here anywhere.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Let me ask, do you want to

7 weigh in on this if you don't mind?

8 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: I agree with John

9 (inaudible).

10 THE ELECTRONIC RECORDING OFFICER: Push

11 the mic.

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Louder.

13 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: This is Kavita

14 Vaidyanathan. And I agree, I think -- and I'm

15 sorry if I misspoke, but we're saying that you're

16 representing your organization and on behalf of

17 your organization, in these few paragraphs, that

18 you wouldn't provide negative comments or you

19 wouldn't go forth on a lawsuit, but that doesn't

20 mean if you have members of your organization that

21 have negative comments or disagree with your

22 position, that they themselves couldn't put forth
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1 a comment on the NOPR.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: And I think what -- Eileen

3 Hoffman -- we were saying this morning

4 is: if you're say in the Legislative Department of

5 your organization, your other department can't be

6 different, in other words, the same organization.

7 But if you have members, they have -- they're

8 different entities, yeah. They're independent.

9 MR. WEISS: Thanks. Mark Weiss, MHARR.

10 I don't want to beat a dead horse either, but I

11 agree. My preference would be to delete them.

12 There's nothing in the statute that requires them.

13 And that was the question I lead off with is a

14 statutory regulatory policy or voluntary. There's

15 nothing in the statute that requires it. And I

16 think you're getting into some real problems here

17 trying to bind people to a consensus that they're

18 not part of, so my preference would be to delete

19 them as well.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean, but the -- if

22 you're not part of the consensus, you're thereby
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1 the dissenter and the way this was written, that

2 gives you every right to do what verbally or

3 otherwise say about what happens. So again,

4 that's like saying, "I agree to work in good

5 faith, but actually I don't," because at the end

6 of the day, I can say, "Yes," and then go say how

7 crappy this whole thing was. I personally take

8 issue with that.

9 MR. LUTER: Rob again, with Lippert. But

10 in that instance, wouldn't that serve to destroy

11 the person's credibility, "I voted for it, but now

12 I don't"? I mean, I too am basically for striking

13 these things. I think at the end of the day, if

14 there is a contingent that has dissenting views

15 that can be supported by send rationale, we as a

16 group are going to water whatever point is trying

17 to be made down to the point that we can reach

18 consensus.

19 If it's watered down to the point that

20 it's really not very effective, DOE rulemaking is

21 going to take over, correct? Once they get our

22 recommendation, they're going to say, "No, that's
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1 watered down. We need to do something else."

2 And at that point, it is a departure

3 from the term sheet and we can dissent all we

4 want, true?

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right, but that doesn't

6 -- that's different than what's up here. That's

7 saying that DOE did not accept the consensus that

8 was brought to them and they're on their own. So

9 now it's a regular NOPR. It's DOE's NOPR. It's

10 not this Group's work in the NOPR.

11 MR. LUTER: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: And at that point --

13 MR. LUTER: Yeah.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- you know, throw the

15 eggs and tomatoes --

16 MR. LUTER: Sure.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- that's fine. But,

18 you know, it's hard for me to believe that you

19 want to say, "Okay. I'm going to agree to what

20 this Group comes out with, but I reserve the right

21 to be as negative as I want about saying, 'Yes.'"

22 I mean, I don't know, it's -- that just sounds --
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, I think you missed a

2 lot -- some of the conversation. I mean, part of

3 it is: we might vote and not -- I have (inaudible)

4 and I'm not (inaudible) but there might be -- you

5 know, we might vote for something and be okay with

6 it and be okay with the consensus and want to put

7 some information into the NOPR as a comment, not

8 necessarily sue or anything like that, just put

9 information out there as part of the public

10 process.

11 And whether or not that's considered

12 "negative" or "not negative" might be

13 kind of a more subjective determination: would

14 that be something that we would be barred from

15 doing, putting comment in on something we do

16 dissent on that doesn't really have -- I mean,

17 then you're starting to get into, you know, does

18 it have the same effect as putting it in the term

19 sheet, "yes" or "no," and, yeah, it's just

20 confusing.

21 I mean, I'm not trying to single out our

22 organization as unique. I think that other people
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1 shared this earlier, so I'm not saying -- I'm just

2 pointing out some things here that -- you know,

3 it's not necessarily what can be construed as

4 "negative," what can be construed as "putting in

5 comments" to something that we might dissent on as

6 part of the process to achieve that consensus,

7 like we'll put that in, we'll say, "Yes, you know,

8 we'll go with this process," and not drop out at

9 the last minute, as some people suggested, and

10 then put some information out in the NOPR and not

11 worry about being construed as "negative" in

12 reaching our agreement as being part of the

13 process is what the concern was.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: So people in the Working

15 Groups have commented on the proposal and some of

16 these others ones, which is fine, right? It

17 doesn't say you can't comment. But again, I think

18 it just seems duplicitous to me to say, you know,

19 "Hey, I'm here in good faith, but I reserve the

20 right" -- you know, I'll end it there. I'll let

21 the Group carry it along. But it just strikes me

22 as odd.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Eric

2 (inaudible).

3 MR. LACEY: I think maybe to go back to

4 an idea that we talked about earlier, I think

5 what's -- what concerns me is: I'd rather see a

6 consensus that -- where there's only one number, a

7 very simple document like John suggested, or if

8 you're going to allow dissenting views, you need

9 to show all the dissenting views, you know.

10 To me, it's an all-or-nothing thing or

11 else there's just going to be an incentive to

12 dissent on every single thing. And so I had

13 suggested earlier maybe the consensus agreement,

14 when you get there, if somebody feels like they

15 have been -- that they have had no say whatsoever,

16 that they could not sign the agreement or they

17 could withdraw. But I think I tend to believe

18 that most people here will give and take a little

19 bit here and there and that nobody will feel

20 completely run over or else our facilitators

21 aren't doing their job.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Right, right.
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1 MR. LACEY: I have a little bit of faith

2 in this Group that at least some of my views will

3 be listened to and I would tend to put a -- put

4 that faith forward and say, you know, I would

5 agree to this and that if I felt like it was so

6 unfair and that I didn't get anything that I

7 wanted, then I'd have that option to drop out and

8 file whatever comments I wanted to or challenge or

9 whatever. But anyway, I'm still a little

10 uncomfortable with giving kind of a special right

11 to non-dissenter -- or to dissenters because it's

12 just going to invite a lot of dissent.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Ishbel then Robin.

14 MS. DICKENS: Yeah, I agree with not

15 giving special rights to the dissenters because

16 then you end up with the minority having control

17 and having their view be more listened to than the

18 majority. And I like things to be as simple and

19 as straightforward as possible so I'm just

20 wondering if there's a way to have the disagree21 and-will-block -- I think that's who we're talking

22 about is the disagree-and-will-block group.
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1 And is there a way to show, you know,

2 that the final term sheet will show the vote and

3 list the disagrees and will not block and that's

4 it. And never mind their comments, just know that

5 I blocked that. That was completely not what my

6 organization would want to have happen, and just

7 leave it like that, very straightforward.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. And I believe there

9 is, right? If how we want to record that and

10 capture that, if the folks that were thumbs down,

11 we could definitely record the name. That's not

12 an issue.

13 Robin?

14 MR. ROY: Robin Roy. I think a lot of

15 this has to do with NRECA's quite dissimilar

16 nature from the rest of the organizations here. I

17 know, Scott, you signed on to NRECA's position as

18 well. I think it's sensible to be supportive that

19 way. But you have 900 members that are hard to

20 know in advance. I mean, if you've had much

21 experience with NRECA, it is quite a diverse group

22 and most of us have much more-contained bodies.
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1 Certainly my 1.4 members and supporters all

2 completely agree with almost everything we say

3 every day.

4 (Laughter.)

5 MR. ROY: No, I mean, that's being

6 facetious. I'm sorry, I don't mean to say that.

7 But actually, I did mean to say that. But it is

8 more challenging, I think, for NRECA than it is

9 for the rest of us to really understand what is

10 the evolving interest of its membership. Now,

11 while the organization may have a view, that view

12 can change. And I don't want to lose NRECA's

13 interest and support in this issue and I respect

14 the challenge that they have with this one

15 And I also respect also, Mark, your view that the

16 language here would work for you, you know,

17 because you have a smaller membership that's not

18 going to be as difficult to predict.

19 I'm not sure exactly what the answer is,

20 but I come back to my earlier view that I'm not

21 sure really what (c), (e) and (f) really buy us. I

22 think that we'll -- what I want to see is a good
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1 discussion, a good debate, bring all this

2 information forward to DOE and to Navigant so they

3 can do their analysis in a sensible way. I think

4 we have a good chance of doing that. I don't want

5 to see NRECA feel like they have to distance

6 themselves increasingly from it.

7 And, John, I take your point too about a

8 degree of -- was it disingenuity that you were

9 raising? But I think in their special case, it

10 may not actually be that. It's a very unusual

11 beast, NRECA.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: And that's why I think

13 the members can have different views than the

14 association. That might put them in a tough spot,

15 I get that, but -- so maybe you don't -- you just

16 go neutral, right? It's an association. But,

17 yeah, I mean, I understand it, but I think we're

18 all here again in good faith to try to get

19 something done but...

20 MS. HOFFMAN: You had a --

21 MR. UNGAR: Yeah. I'm again okay with

22 either proposal.
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: Did you put your thing on?

2 MR. UNGAR: Sorry. Lowell Ungar. I'm

3 again okay with either proposal. I'm wondering if

4 a way to address DOE and/or ASRAC's concerns would

5 be to go back to something Keith had said of being

6 okay with a positive statement where everyone

7 could take out these three "will not" clauses, but

8 put in some positive statement of expectations of

9 parties that is -- we're trying to find a

10 consensus rule and we'll try to stand behind the

11 product, if that would address the DOE and ASRAC's

12 concerns.

13 MR. DRAKE: Yes, this is Scott Drake.

14 And what I find I don't like about this is that

15 dissenting -- it drives us to dissention a little

16 bit. I like -- I prefer the way it was originally

17 written to this because for the rulemaking

18 process, it drives us to consensus --

19 MS. HOFFMAN: We can agree with you.

20 MR. DRAKE: -- and not apart. And

21 that's a reason I dissented, if you will. On

22 this, I would prefer the other language to this or
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1 a more moderate language that says we're all here

2 in good faith anyway.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah, Mark?

4 MR. WEISS: I agree with what Lowell

5 said also. But just to bring this back to where

6 we started the discussion and to address John to

7 some degree, what I was postulating at the

8 beginning is: we come down to a final vote on the

9 consensus and per Party X votes "No" on that final

10 consensus, that should not be a waiver of their

11 procedural rights that they would otherwise have.

12 I was not talking about individual votes along the

13 way. I was talking again looking at the big

14 picture of that final vote and whether you're

15 going to be drawn into a non-consensual,

16 effectively, waiver of rights that you would

17 otherwise have. That's my primary concern.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't think that this

19 does that. But I guess another point of view here

20 from ASRAC's position, so let's say, you know, our

21 group does its thing, it presents to ASRAC the

22 term sheet and it had the consensus vote to move
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1 forward. ASRAC accepts it, DOE accepts it. Then

2 the NOPR comes out and members of the Committee

3 write negative viewpoints of what they just voted

4 "Yes" for, ASRAC endorsed and DOE endorsed.

5 I mean, nobody else sees an issue with

6 that? I just -- it just seems strange to me.

7 MR. WEISS: Okay. I don't understand.

8 I'm postulating a "No" vote.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, you're good with a

10 "No" vote.

11 MR. WEISS: Okay.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: You can do whatever you

13 want.

14 MR. WEISS: All right.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm saying someone who

16 did not vote "No" actually could have voted "Yes,"

17 but I think if you take that out -- well, with

18 what was --

19 MR. DENNIS: If I'm -- hold up. I'm

20 just throwing out there. I put my hand in because

21 it's where I understand the process to

22 (inaudible).
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, no question.

2 MR. DENNIS: Well, I'm just saying it

3 does provide an incentive to say, "No," on some of

4 the smaller items that we might want to reserve

5 the right to comment on. Now, that's -- if

6 everyone's fine with that, if that's what we have

7 to do to preserve a right to comment on something,

8 that's fine.

9 I think the easier way is to just say

10 that it's a transparent process. If somebody's in

11 the process -- and, you know, that -- if you want

12 to do it that way, that's fine. It's -- now you

13 have to dissent in order to comment whereas

14 before, you might have more leeway to say, "Okay.

15 We're going to put more information out on this.

16 Let this kind of be a -- not a dissenting vote,

17 just let it go. We'll put some more information

18 out there in the NOPR.

19 If there's more people who have

20 comments, they'll provide it and then people can

21 consider it as part of an open process." But

22 we're still here at the table giving our best
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1 effort to get it through. You know, we'll put

2 comments -- and not negative, not like "This is

3 the stupidest thing I've ever heard of," but

4 "Here's some information. You know, we weren't

5 sure during the process," and let it be.

6 But if we have to say in order to be

7 conservative, we have to dissent so that we can

8 comment later, that might be construed negative.

9 That's fine, too, but I was just bringing it up. I

10 don't say I'll hold up -- you know, I'm not trying

11 to hold up any process here. I'm just putting

12 that out there.

13 And if we want to vote on it, I'll --

14 you know, I can agree to, you know, doing this.

15 I'm just putting out the point that it does

16 provide an incentive to dissent. If there's any

17 question of whether or not later during the NOPR,

18 you want might want to put more information out

19 and comment so.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, and you can always

21 comment, right, and it's --

22 MR. DENNIS: Well, this is saying that
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1 you might not be able to if you don't dissent.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Not just the negative

3 comments. So what I don't want happen is saying,

4 "Okay. For the record, NRECA voted in favor of

5 windows with a U-factor of X," and then we put

6 that in and NRECA's comment comes out saying,

7 "This is the -- you know, NRECA disagrees with a

8 U-factor of X," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

9 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Right.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's what -- this is

11 what I'm -- this is the position I'm taking that -

12 - by a negative comment. So when you see -- the

13 term sheet, let's say, has 10 things that we voted

14 out, 1 through 10, and in the NOPR, it'll

15 enumerate them and if you voted "Yes" for Item 3

16 but then in the NOPR, say you disagree -- this is

17 what I mean by a negative comment -- NRECA or --

18 sorry to use you as an example, I don't mean

19 anything against NRECA -- disagrees with Number 3

20 even though you voted "Yes" for it in the

21 consensus, that's what I'm trying to get at here.

22 That's what I mean by a negative comment.
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1 MR. DENNIS: And I think we'd all hope

2 that that wouldn't happen and we're all -- that's

3 why, I think, the aspirational language would work

4 better than non-dissenting, but if you -- like you

5 said, if you voted on non-dissenting and this

6 language, I just wanted to throw that out there:

7 is it, you know, incentive to dissent?

8 But I'm willing to, you know --

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's actually happened -

10 -

11 MR. DENNIS: -- put my nose on that.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- in another working

13 group. That's why I'm really kind of beating this

14 horse.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Someone voted for a

17 specific action and was actually like the person

18 who was behind it.

19 (Laughter.)

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: And then in the NOPR

21 comments said they didn't agree with that, and I

22 actually had to call them up to remind them that
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1 it was kind of their idea. But anyway, you know,

2 you could see where I'm coming from here, I think.

3 I get the sense everyone here has the right spirit

4 to get this done so that's good.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: I feel that way.

7 MR. ROY: (Inaudible) change (inaudible)

8 like (inaudible).

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

10 MR. DENNIS: Let me try to summarize --

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Hold on. Okay.

12 MR. DENNIS: Someone said --

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Robin has something in

14 mind (inaudible).

15 MR. DENNIS: Oh, I'm sorry, Robin,

16 (inaudible).

17 MS. HOFFMAN: That's all right.

18 MR. ROY: I feel your pain, John, but I

19 actually think that somebody behaving that way

20 should be easily dismissible in your final rule.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, it's hard because

22 we have to address all the comments, right? So --
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1 right, so we can make the person look bad. I

2 don't really want to be in that position.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't -- look, this is

5 both ways, I think.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't want to say

8 Company X said this and now Company X is saying

9 one over that. Sure, we could do that in a public

10 document, but this -- is that what people really

11 want here? I don't think so.

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Good point. Okay.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Yeah, I was

14 going to try to capture where I would say that the

15 sticking points are, right, where one group was

16 saying, "We want to be careful," you know, and I

17 think I even heard the term that, you know, if

18 we're "muscled" or "steamrolled," and steamrolled

19 is probably my term, right? But in other words,

20 if we didn't get a chance to talk, do we later

21 then waive our right to take any actions where the

22 other side is saying, "But if you support it here,
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1 you better not be dissenting it later." It makes

2 no sense. And when you think about why the --

3 this Work Group is here is to avoid that type of

4 issue later, right?

5 So the question that I have for you:

6 does this address both concerns? And if

7 so, I hear the other comments being -- this is

8 going to really make the process tough

9 potentially, right, which then puts a little bit

10 more on Eileen and I to really -- and if you

11 remember, our goal is going to try to get you as

12 close to 100 percent as possible.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

14 MR. RAMIREZ: We may not always get

15 there, right, but that's going to be what we're

16 striving for with the bottom line being the two17 thirds, right?

18 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I could --

19 MS. HOFFMAN: And one of them, just so

20 you know, is between meetings telling -- talking

21 to you about how to communicate to your

22 constituents so they know what you're doing so it
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1 isn't -- and so all I'm getting at is that you're

2 here and there's a lot of responsibility here, but

3 you do have folks behind and so we -- that's why

4 we time some of these meetings so you can

5 communicate going --

6 MR. DENNIS: You know, I mean, I guess

7 just a process question. It seems like if we had

8 written this, we wouldn't have included this, and

9 it seems like a bunch of people want it taken out

10 or think it's -- makes them uncomfortable. And it

11 wasn't included in kind of like the signup thing

12 like, well, "If you participate in this, you're

13 going to be saying no negative."

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

15 MR. DENNIS: So I'm not sure why there's

16 such resistance to kind of say maybe we'll just

17 get rid of it. But that being say, you know, if

18 you want to -- I think that there's probably

19 consensus on a couple of them. If you're saying

20 now we have two-thirds, we'd probably get two21 thirds potentially to strike it. We could

22 probably get two-thirds to say, "Non-dissenting."
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1 We could -- you know, it's a high level of

2 discomfort. We didn't come up with this stuff.

3 It's just here and now we're responding

4 to it. We spent hours on it. I don't know why

5 it's even here given it wasn't kind of a

6 prerequisite to kind of participate. I mean,

7 again you could just sit in the back of the room

8 and give comments and say, "Now I can" -- you

9 know, so that's just a -- from overall kind of

10 process-wise, it might be nice or transparent to

11 say, "In this process, if you sign up to this, you

12 will, you know, be waiving some rights to comments

13 and rights to appeals," and, you know, instead of

14 just kind of putting it here and having us spend a

15 couple hours on it when we didn't come up with it.

16 It seems kind of strange.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: I guess from DOE's point

18 of view, we would just revert to the standard

19 rulemaking process and -- at that point. I mean -

20 -

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Robert and then

22 Ishbel.
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1 MR. LUTER: Rob, with Lippert. Just a

2 quick question for John. When this occasion did

3 arise where somebody was for it before they were

4 against it -- I think they came up with that down

5 the street here -- how'd it shake out? I mean,

6 was it the end of the world or were you able to

7 resolve it?

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: So that rulemaking's

9 still open actually.

10 MR. LUTER: Oh.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. It's the one that

13 just finished before. So, no, I mean, I don't --

14 it's an uncomfortable position to have to respond

15 to a comment in that --

16 MR. LUTER: Does a comment like that

17 from a participant in a group like this carry that

18 much more weight than a comment from the public on

19 a NOPR?

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, because we respond

21 to all comments so that -- no, no more weight.

22 It's just -- I mean, you're calling somebody out
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1 for the actions that they're taking.

2 MR. LUTER: Understood. My point there

3 is: if a member of the public could make the

4 comment and it has to be considered thoughtfully -

5 -

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right.

7 MR. LUTER: -- or if a member of the

8 public that's acting as a surrogate for a member

9 could make the comment --

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right, they could do

11 that.

12 MR. LUTER: -- or if a member makes the

13 comment in the negative even though previously

14 supported it, if at the end of the day your

15 response has to be the same thing, does it really

16 matter other than the awkwardness and -- I get

17 that?

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: It matters and -- you

19 know, so if this comes to a consensus and the term

20 sheet's clean and it's accepted, the idea is that

21 then all the -- these are the key stakeholders

22 that supposedly have the most interest in the
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1 rulemaking. I'm hoping that 90 percent of the

2 public comment we would get is generated from the

3 Group around the table. I may be wrong, but let's

4 just throw that out there.

5 So if we take the consensus and everyone

6 here agreed to it, let's say, and it goes through,

7 the public comment I expect to be responding to in

8 the final rule is, "Yea, everyone likes it."

9 MR. LUTER: Yeah, pretty clean.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right?

11 MR. LUTER: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: No -- doesn't that make

13 our job a lot easier than --

14 MR. LUTER: No.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, I mean, that's the

16 whole idea for us being here. I mean, it -- no

17 disrespect to anyone in the room, but it's almost

18 like you want it both ways now. You want to do

19 the negotiated rulemaking, but you want to

20 preserve the slice of the regular rulemaking, the

21 contentious part, and keep that right to be

22 contentious even if you voted "Yes." You know, we
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1 can go that way, that's fine, but I think it's

2 against, in my mind, the spirit of why I'm

3 spending taxpayers' dollars to do all this stuff.

4 But that's, you know, for the Group to decide.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

6 Ishbel?

7 MS. DICKENS: In the spirit of trying to

8 get to consensus, I've got some language that I'd

9 like to offer.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

11 MS. DICKENS: "The members of this

12 negotiated rulemaking work group agree to

13 participate in good faith and will attempt to

14 reach consensus wherever possible. And where any

15 party does not agree to the consensus position,

16 then these parties are free to offer comments

17 through the NOPR as they see fit."

18 Does that work for people? Mark doesn't

19 like it, yeah?

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Mark.

21 MR. WEISS: Okay. Don't prejudge.

22 (Laughter.)
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1 MR. WEISS: No, actually I had a

2 question.

3 Is that -- would that be in lieu of (c),

4 (d) and (e), a replacement?

5 MS. DICKENS: Yes, it was a replacement

6 for those.

7 MR. WEISS: Okay. Did you have it

8 written down?

9 MS. DICKENS: I have it scribbled down,

10 yes.

11 MR. WEISS: Okay, good enough.

12 Could you read it again please? I'd

13 like to hear it again.

14 MS. DICKENS: Yes.

15 MR. WEISS: I'd like to hear it again. I

16 don't know if anybody else would.

17 MS. DICKENS: "Members of this

18 negotiated rulemaking work group agree to

19 participate in good faith and will attempt to

20 reach consensus wherever possible. Where any

21 party does not" --

22 MS. HOFFMAN: You better go slower.
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1 MS. DICKENS: I'm sorry.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, I'm on a work group

3 on that.

4 MS. DICKENS: Oh, I'm -- and it says,

5 "Members of this --

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Negotiated rulemaking work

7 group.

8 MS. DICKENS: -- work group agree to

9 participate in good faith and will attempt to

10 reach consensus wherever possible."

11 Then new sentence, "Where any party does

12 not agree to the consensus position, then these

13 parties are free to offer comments through the

14 NOPR as they see fit."

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Now, NOPR?

16 MS. DICKENS: NOPR.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: N-O-P-R.

18 MS. DICKENS: It just said, "N-O-P-R."

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Notice of --

20 MS. DICKENS: Notice of --

21 MS. HOFFMAN: -- Proposed Rulemaking.

22 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: N-O-P-R.
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: N-O-P-R, right?

2 MS. DICKENS: Yeah.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah, just the

4 (inaudible), yeah.

5 MS. DICKENS: "As they see fit."

6 MR. WEISS: A friendly suggestion before

7 we discuss it. I would suggest here take out

8 "wherever possible." I don't think you need it

9 and I think it add ambiguity so it could be

10 problematic. Anything's possible.

11 MS. DICKENS: I guess (inaudible) that.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me bring it up a

13 little bit more so it's not --

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: And I still think people

15 who actually agree to the consensus position can

16 comment as well so I don't want to -- again,

17 you're allowed to comment whether or not you agree

18 with it.

19 MR. LUTER: I don't know if it still has

20 to be negative but --

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, that's the whole

22 thing. And we got some very positive ones out of
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1 our last two working groups so.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So the question is:

3 Is this good enough to replace (c), (e)

4 and (f)?

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Go back.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Push it up a little? So

8 the (f) doesn't seem to be part of the statement.

9 I could see (c) and (e) being covered but...

10 MR. DENNIS: I mean, I think that it's

11 reasonable to say that if they're going to

12 challenge it in court, you wouldn't dissent then.

13 THE ELECTRONIC RECORDING OFFICER: Push

14 the mic.

15 MR. DENNIS: I think it's reasonable to

16 say -- and again, I feel bad because I feel like

17 I'm the one holding this up, but, I mean, if

18 somebody's going to challenge it, I would imagine

19 they'd dissent so I don't -- that's a big holdup

20 for -- John seems to hold more weight because he's

21 the federal representative of ASRAC here.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, no, we're all equal
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1 here. So -- and I take your point, right? So if

2 that's, in fact, the case, which I believe it to

3 be as well, there's no reason why you can't state

4 it.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: So --

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: If you agree to that, I

7 agree, too. You would dissent if you're going to

8 sue so why not have the statement?

9 MR. DENNIS: So I guess my question is -

10 -

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't want you to

12 agree with me and sue me.

13 MR. DENNIS: I mean, that's not a

14 problem is it?

15 MR. RAMIREZ: So what I'm hearing is

16 that --

17 MR. DENNIS: Can we vote on just what

18 she proposed with just getting rid of (c), (d) and

19 (f) and using that in place? Because that's the

20 easiest thing, I think.

21 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's fine,

22 understood it.
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1 MR. DENNIS: Yes.

2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Let's do

3 this.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. So then -- and

5 again, gauging the level of consensus, right? But

6 I just --

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Make sure --

8 MR. RAMIREZ: -- want to make sure that

9 there's --

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Make sure what it is.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. Well, that's

12 second.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: But I want to make sure

15 that there was no additional comment before I do

16 that and make sure that we know exactly what we're

17 voting on. So --

18 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: So this is Kavita

19 Vaidyanathan. I think I agree with John in saying

20 that why can't we -- I don't know. I just think

21 it would be best to add (f) to the last statement

22 saying that "Where any party does not agree to the
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1 consensus position, then these parties are free to

2 offer comments through the NOPR as they see fit or

3 take a position materially inconsistent with the

4 standard in court or in any forum."

5 MR. DENNIS: I mean, just --

6 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: So that's just adding

7 --

8 MR. DENNIS: I can see why DOE's general

9 counsel brought it up, but I could see why my

10 general counsel and our general counsels would

11 want to say, "We don't want to bind our CEOs to

12 something in this process." So, you know -- and

13 again, you know, if we wanted to file a lawsuit,

14 this wouldn't hold up in court. And if it's me

15 sitting here, you know, they'd fire me and

16 whatever, you know.

17 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: If you're

18 lucky.

19 MR. DENNIS: Yeah.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. DENNIS: So I just think it's much

22 easier to -- and I think the -- I think that we
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1 could probably pass consensus with her proposal.

2 I'd rather vote on it.

3 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Well, I think -- I

4 mean, the only -- and I don't mean to beat a dead

5 horse either, but I think DOE's position is: we

6 don't want to get sued if you agree and think that

7 it's a good position and you agree with the

8 consensus, that a party that said "Yes" to the

9 consensus is going to sue us later and say, "Well,

10 I was in the Working Group and negotiated in good

11 faith but even though I voted 'Yes,' I'm going to

12 bring a lawsuit."

13 MR. DENNIS: Right. And general --

14 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: So that's where we're

15 coming from.

16 MR. DENNIS: And DOE's general counsel

17 would like us to put in that nobody could ever see

18 DOE ever, right, so --

19 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: But that's --

20 MR. DENNIS: And I know your position --

21 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: -- what I'm saying. I

22 am -- I do understand --
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1 MR. DENNIS: Right.

2 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: -- that there is a

3 dissenting vote and that the dissenters want to

4 file the lawsuit, I get that. But I would hope

5 that the people that agreed to the actual term

6 sheet and they voted "Yes" for neutral, they

7 wouldn't want to sue. That's the whole point of

8 this Work Group, right?

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

10 Yeah, Mark?

11 MR. WEISS: Well, I'm not going to argue

12 the part that says, "I would hope that." That's

13 the whole idea of making this aspirational. I

14 don't think you can force anybody into a waiver of

15 their rights. "Just head to the exits," you know,

16 is the response to that.

17 I don't think anybody wants to act in an

18 inconsistent fashion, but we -- again, it's a

19 question of being sucked into a -- at the end, in

20 an unwilling waiver or have to resign and

21 effectively give up our right to try to convince

22 others here of our position, which is the
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1 objective of it.

2 Again, I'm okay with the aspirational

3 language in place of (c), (d) and (e).

4 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (c), (d) --

5 (c), (e) and (f).

6 MR. SPEAKER 2: (c), (d) and (f), that's

7 right.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Lois.

9 MR. WEISS: Okay.

10 MS. STARKEY: But, Mark, just correct

11 me. You're suggesting that after you -- we go

12 through this whole process and for some reason

13 somebody in this room can't agree to the final

14 terms, they feel that they have a right to try to

15 still convince those people, or to convince DOE or

16 to convince who, the public?

17 MR. WEISS: No, what I'm saying is: if

18 you leave the language in, you can participate in

19 a final vote and vote "No" but still be deemed to

20 be part of a consensus and will have waived your

21 rights under these various statutes. So a person

22 in that -- if this language was retained, a person
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1 in that position, presumably, would resign before

2 being compromised in that way.

3 So what I'm saying is: I want to be able

4 to try and -- not say, "I," but a generic person

5 here would want to be able to try to convince the

6 members of this Group as part of this process

7 without having to resign preemptively basically in

8 order to avoid being swept up in this.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Manuel?

10 MR. SANTANA: I don't think that's what

11 it's saying at all. If you don't agree, then

12 you're not part of the consensus and -- or you're

13 a dissenting party so you can say whatever you

14 want, you know, as -- or you could make whatever -

15 - all the comments you want. If you say, "Yes,

16 this is what I vote for, I agree with it," then

17 you can't go and say "No."

18 MR. WEISS: I've been postulating all

19 along if -- you know, and this -- I don't know if

20 I'm going to dissent, you know. I may or may not,

21 I don't know. But I've been postulating all along

22 -- I've repeated it here several times -
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1 - that -- well, what I'm saying is: if I vote

2 "No", or whoever votes "No" on the final

3 consensus, you don't want to waive your right to

4 submit negative comments or to sue.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah, because Keith is

6 saying you are.

7 MR. WEISS: And I have said that any one

8 of the three approaches mentioned --

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

10 MR. WEISS: -- I think would address

11 that issue, or is it four now? The --

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Let me just for a moment.

13 MR. WEISS: All right.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Maybe I'm just hearing if

15 -- what I heard you say is: if you vote

16 "No" on the final, you have a right -- you can --

17 you're dissenting, right, Kavita, you could sue;

18 is that correct?

19 MR. RAMIREZ: That's what (f) would do,

20 right?

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

22 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: From DOE's
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1 perspective, yeah.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah, so I'm --

3 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: I mean, we agree that

4 --

5 MS. HOFFMAN: That's why I'm a little

6 puzzled.

7 Go on.

8 MR. WEISS: Right. And that's what I'm

9 trying to explain and -- because we had different

10 proposals floating around. I have said I would

11 prefer just removal. That would be my preferred

12 position because then I'm not going to have to

13 argue about what language means, whatever, it just

14 is gone. And again, this is --

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Removal of what, of

16 (inaudible).

17 MR. WEISS: (c), (e) and (f), or

18 whatever ones we're talking about at this point.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: I see.

20 MR. WEISS: Removal, so I'm not stuck

21 later on arguing about what that language means if

22 I vote "No" on the final and then somebody says,
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1 "Well, you waived your right to do X."

2 I would be fine with removal and the

3 additional of Ishbel's aspirational language.

4 I would be okay with changing it to

5 "non-dissenting" because that addresses my issue.

6 But again, I'm putting these in order of my

7 preference. I'm putting this all out on the

8 table. And there might have been another

9 suggestion, but essentially in that order.

10 I mean, I don't want to be stuck at the

11 end of this process, I don't want anybody to be

12 stuck at the end of this process, you know,

13 arguing about what, you know, a particular word

14 that's left in here means. So the simplest

15 approach, from those of us who are concerned about

16 this, is to just remove it. It's not an issue.

17 The statutes and the regulations whatever applies

18 will apply.

19 If you have verbiage, again I'm more

20 comfortable with Ishbel's aspirational language

21 combined with taking out those provisions.

22 My last place that I would be okay with
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1 but not as preferred would be having the "non2 dissenting" language in there because that does

3 cover, at some level, my concern but it still

4 leaves the prospect down the road of having to

5 argue about what something means.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: So it's a little

7 (inaudible) --

8 MR. WEISS: I'm trying to --

9 MR. RAMIREZ: -- on that consensus

10 ladder but still acceptable.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

12 Now, who hasn't spoken yet?

13 (Laughter.)

14 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay.

15 They're quiet.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: As a good facilitator --

17 MR. LUTER: Just a quick --

18 MS. HOFFMAN: -- I want to know --

19 MR. LUTER: -- clarification please?

20 MS. HOFFMAN: All right, sure.

21 MR. LUTER: Rob, with Lippert.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Rob.
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1 MR. LUTER: I want to make sure. We are

2 speaking strictly about the last vote, correct,

3 not elemental votes within? It's once the term

4 sheet's put together and the vote for consensus --

5 MS. HOFFMAN: The last vote.

6 MR. LUTER: -- on the term sheet, this

7 is -- okay.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: The final final.

9 MR. LUTER: That's the only one we're

10 talking about.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: That's right.

12 MR. LUTER: Okay.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: The final final, which I

14 think is -- was that the --

15 MR. UNGAR: This is Lowell. That's not

16 how I read that language so I'm not -- I would

17 like it to be that way. That's not --

18 THE ELECTRONIC RECORDING OFFICER: Push

19 the mic please.

20 MR. UNGAR: -- how I read what's actually

21 there so I wanted (inaudible) --

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, I --
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1 MR. UNGAR: I'm sorry, I thought I was

2 on. I tried to turn it on.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: So you're --

4 MR. UNGAR: So I'm questioning them but

5 --

6 MS. HOFFMAN: -- asking Ishbel --

7 MR. UNGAR: I'm questioning the

8 interpretation.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

10 MR. UNGAR: You just gave an

11 interpretation, which I assume included the new

12 "(g)," or whatever we're calling it.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: The highlighted part.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. Maybe we should --

15 MR. UNGAR: And it says --

16 MS. HOFFMAN: -- ask Ishbel when --

17 MR. UNGAR: So it says, "Where any party

18 does not agree to the consensus position," to me,

19 that says --

20 MS. HOFFMAN: You mean on any issue.

21 MR. UNGAR: "Where," to me, sounds like

22 "anything," so I would -- it makes some
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1 difference. I actually like it better if it's

2 only talking about the final agreement as a whole.

3 MS. DICKENS: And I think I did mean

4 that because I was referencing it back to the (a)

5 where the term "the final" -- where you had "the

6 final" in (a) (inaudible).

7 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Final.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: So final consensus, would

9 that be where any party does not agree --

10 MS. DICKENS: Oh, where any party

11 doesn't agree to the final --

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Consensus document or I

13 guess --

14 MS. DICKENS: -- consensus position,

15 yeah.

16 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Or the term

17 sheet.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Terms of --

19 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Robin Roy

20 over here with his placard up.

21 MR. ROY: I'm just always saying the

22 same thing. It's Robin. I think that doesn't --
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1 I still think it doesn't deal with the one really

2 most-unusual (inaudible) or type organization in

3 this room and that's NRECA because that means that

4 if they don't say, "No," they won't be able to

5 comment later. And I don't want to drive them

6 from the table.

7 I think we get the benefit from DOE

8 having them at this table. DOE -- it may be

9 frustrating that NRECA changes its mind as its

10 members weigh in and then they have to be rude, I

11 guess, in their comments and the way they address

12 the public comment, but I think you get what you

13 need from having a more vibrant discussion and we

14 come up with a better NOPR faster.

15 And I would just love, based on how long

16 this is taking and how unproductive it finally is,

17 to just see if we could ditch (c), (e) and (f).

18 And if we can put in some aspirational language,

19 that's great, and recognize that nothing here is

20 going to be effectively binding because the Courts

21 aren't going to stand for any of this stuff.

22 So this is all kind of feel-good bits?
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1 Come on, we're sitting here because we feel good

2 about working towards something productive. Can

3 put this behind us.

4 What's -- what was your expression,

5 "ewall" -- "eball"?

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Elmo.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Elmo, Elmo.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Elmo.

9 MR. ROY: And the second thing is --

10 MR. RAMIREZ: No, I --

11 MR. ROY: I have one other issue like

12 why do we think it's okay to beat a live horse? I

13 don't get this.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, right.

15 MR. ROY: Yeah.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: I was in a negotiation,

17 just so you know, last week where a woman had a

18 charm bracelet with a dead horse on it, which she

19 used all the time, anyway.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. Well, see the --

22 and I think the part of the -- at least in my --
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1 as a facilitator, I want to make sure that

2 everyone has an opportunity to express their

3 concerns, but also the part -- the whole reason,

4 at least for what I understood that this process

5 is all about, right, the whole idea is to get the

6 interested parties in, hopefully get them to reach

7 consensus and you avoid any, you know, litigation

8 later. That's the whole reason that you're here

9 or at least minimize the opportunity for it. And

10 so I want to make sure that everyone's okay with

11 it.

12 But even more importantly, right, the

13 DOE in the sense that then why do this, right? And

14 so I want to make sure that everyone is truly

15 onboard with the final outcome before we move

16 ahead. So, you know, as everyone said that you

17 beat the dead horse and they take their kick, you

18 know, it might be necessary, right, to make sure

19 that at least that everything's brought out on

20 this issue. It seems like it's a pretty core

21 piece, right?

22 So what I heard was -- and I'm going to
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1 put the onus here on DOE to speak up if -- you

2 know, if there's issues, right? So what I'm

3 hearing is: (c), (e) and (f) are eliminated, and

4 put in the highlighted language, which reads, for

5 the folks that are not here, right, "Members in

6 the Negotiated Rulemaking Work Group agree to

7 participate in good faith and will attempt to

8 reach consensus. Where any party does not agree

9 to the final consensus position, then these

10 parties are free to offer comments there the NOPR

11 as they see fit." Yeah.

12 MR. SANTANA: You know, I'd like to say,

13 "Elmo," as well but --

14 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: You good

15 with that?

16 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:

17 (Inaudible).

18 MR. SANTANA: If you -- where it says if

19 you don't agree to the consensus position, you're

20 free to offer comments through NOPR, does that

21 restrict you?

22 MS. DICKENS: No. Take out -- you just
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1 take out --

2 MR. SANTANA: NOPR?

3 MS. DICKENS: -- "through the NOPR" just

4 like (inaudible) --

5 MR. SANTANA: (Inaudible).

6 MS. DICKENS: -- whatever. I mean, to -

7 -

8 MR. SANTANA: You know, so that means

9 you can't sue now because you can only comment on

10 the NOPR?

11 MS. DICKENS: We can remove "through the

12 NOPR," I'm fine. I mean, I just want it

13 straightforward and simple.

14 MR. DENNIS: Yes, I agree with

15 everything Robin says, I think she makes a lot of

16 sense. But the reality in what DOE says, the

17 reality is: we can just do it through a surrogate

18 anyway. We're really arguing about nothing here

19 and it's really just the uncomfortableness of what

20 we can bind other people to. I mean, we talked

21 earlier about just making it the people in the

22 room, which we could do. We talked about a lot of
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1 things I think we could all get a consensus on. It

2 sounds like we have the most consensus on this and

3 we need to vote and move on.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: I think --

5 MR. DENNIS: I probably could have

6 reached consensus on a number of things so.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: So with that, let's see a

8 show of thumbs where you're at with striking (c),

9 (e) and (f), keeping the highlighting language,

10 which I just read.

11 (Calls for show of thumbs.)

12 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (inaudible)

13 in the NOPR?

14 MS. DICKENS: Yeah, you can have that.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry.

16 MS. DICKENS: You can -- if you leaf

17 through the NOPR just because that's limiting. I

18 don't -- I didn't mean to give (inaudible).

19 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So another

20 comment deleting "through the NOPR as they see

21 fit."

22 MS. DICKENS: Yeah, all their comments.
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1 Yeah, that's fine.

2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. Okay.

3 Uh-huh (affirmatively).

4 MS. DICKENS: They can offer unfit

5 comments.

6 (Laughter.)

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Let's see a show of

8 thumbs if you're okay with those modifications.

9 (Calls for show of thumbs.)

10 MR. HAGERMAN: Now, this is the

11 modification of the yellow that's added?

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Keeping the highlighted,

13 striking (c), (e) and (f).

14 MR. HAGERMAN: And (f).

15 MR. RAMIREZ: And (f).

16 MR. HAGERMAN: To be honest with you,

17 I'm going to have to talk to our larger general

18 counsel about striking out.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Then your

20 thumb is down from my --

21 MR. HAGERMAN: My thumb is down, yes.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: And what I understand, you
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1 want to table with that?

2 MR. HAGERMAN: If you take this vote

3 like after a 30-minute break, I could probably

4 have a different position.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, let me ask you: are

6 you all okay with a 15-minute break?

7 MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let's go ahead

9 and take a 15-minute break, see if you get it done

10 within that time. If not, then we'll see where we

11 go from there.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: All right. Thanks.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

14 (Recess taken.)

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Is that everyone?

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Wait. Are we missing

17 Richard Potts?

18 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, we've

19 (inaudible) on this one.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, we'll give another

21 minute.

22 (Pause.)
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's go ahead and get

2 started. And we left so that way we could check

3 something out. I'll open the floor to Joe.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: Is everybody here?

5 MR. RAMIREZ: No.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, Richard Potts isn't

7 here.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: And Mark had a conference

9 call.

10 So how is the attendance on the webinar;

11 is everybody --

12 MS. MARCHETTI: Oh, for members?

13 MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah, Working Group

14 members.

15 MS. MARCHETTI: It's still (inaudible).

16 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay, great. So first of

17 all, thanks for letting me go down and check with

18 our General Counsel's Office on what DOE's

19 position here especially as it relates to removal

20 of (f).

21 I think we're very comfortable with

22 removing (c) and (e) with the highlighted text. I
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1 think we're very supportive of that.

2 (f), you know, we're all here in good

3 faith to work through some really hard issues as a

4 group in a very short time frame to define what

5 these efficiency standards need to look like that

6 are really going to, you know, support your

7 industry and your members, and so we, you know,

8 greatly appreciate everybody's time and interest

9 in this and we know we're going to have a lot of

10 hard discussions as we come up with technical

11 levels.

12 And I think that, you know, we all hope,

13 in the bottom of our hearts, that we're here in

14 good faith to addresses these as colleagues, as,

15 you know, peers, as stewards to make sure that we,

16 as a group, come up with the best term sheet and

17 NOPR we can for the industry as well as all the

18 consumers that by manufactured housing.

19 So with that said, you know, we're

20 really uncomfortable -- our official vote on this

21 to really support the consensus process is to

22 abstain from this vote. And I know all you all
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1 voted to support it so we're going to abstain

2 because we're a little bit worried that, you know,

3 the first -- or one of the first decisions that's

4 being made here is to strike the clause that says

5 you're not going to sue us after we, as a group of

6 individuals, work hard on this single agreement.

7 We're a little bit just -- you know,

8 we're concerned with, you know, how that appears,

9 what that looks like, how that feels so we're

10 going to abstain. And then I assume that when you

11 take a vote that the consensus will pass this

12 through.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So let's

14 tighten it up. I'm sorry, I shut my mic off.

15 Let's tighten it up because I'm hearing that

16 striking (c) and (e) for the highlighted language

17 is okay, right? Now, I'm going to deal with (f)

18 separate, okay? So let me see a show of thumbs if

19 everyone's okay with striking (c) and (e) and

20 adopting the highlighted language as amended. I'll

21 come to (f) in a second.

22 (Calls for show of thumbs.)
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. I don't see any

2 thumbs down.

3 Now, then the last piece here is on (f)

4 and we're looking at striking that as well. So

5 let me see a show of thumbs if you're okay with

6 striking (f).

7 (Calls for show of thumbs.)

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Quite a few

9 sideways, right, but no thumbs down so that is --

10 that's approval, okay?

11 And as we had gone through before Eileen

12 had walked you through the other rules that were

13 on here and everyone's okay with the remaining

14 rules.

15 So believe it or not, that takes care of

16 the Ground Rules except for the ones that you all

17 said that Richard wanted to -- you wanted to have

18 Richard work on and draft them all up.

19 MR. POTTS: Except I missed that.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. RAMIREZ: No, I'm just -- I'm

22 playing with Richard since he just walked in,
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1 right? But that takes care of all the Ground

2 Rules then, right?

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Hold on one second.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

5 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: So the

6 Ground Rules -- the parking lot, I guess, we got

7 it done.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

9 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible)

10 get that (inaudible).

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

12 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

13 Thank you.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah, (inaudible). We

15 paid the ticket.

16 (Laughter.)

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Good.

18 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Did you get

19 any advice?

20 MS. HOFFMAN: (Inaudible). Okay.

21 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Do you want

22 to take Richard though since it (inaudible)?
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, yeah.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, Richard. So what we

3 did was: there was a pretty clear agreement on

4 striking (c) and (e) and adopting that highlighted

5 language --

6 MR. POTTS: Okay.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: -- and the Group approved

8 that.

9 Are you okay with that?

10 MR. POTTS: Oh, yes.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: And then I dealt with (f)

12 separate since that seemed to be where the latest

13 sticking point was and the DOE abstained from that

14 vote and it was approved as well.

15 Are you okay with that one?

16 MR. POTTS: Striking (f)?

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Striking (f).

18 MR. POTTS: Yeah.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: So given that, the Ground

21 Rules are accepted and move on.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Let me --
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1 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: My

2 (inaudible) is (inaudible).

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. All right. Given

4 that, the Ground Rules are now accepted by consent

5 --

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. And --

7 MS. HOFFMAN: A consensus here. Okay.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: So now that we got the

9 easy --

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Unanimous actually.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, we got the easy

12 stuff out of the way now, right?

13 (Laughter.)

14 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And we're a

15 half hour ahead of schedule on that.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Right, yes.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Awesome. All right. Joe

18 is going to go over some analysis summary here.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah, that's --

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Do you need a couple

21 minutes to get the technology, get your slides --

22 do you have any slides or anything like that you
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1 need or no?

2 MR. HAGERMAN: Oh, yeah, we should have

3 slides.

4 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah, it's

5 on my laptop.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

7 MR. HAGERMAN: So John just joined us.

8 He is the representative of ASRAC that John

9 Cymbalsky was sitting in for earlier this morning,

10 so maybe we get John to introduce himself and then

11 maybe quick introductions around the room just

12 real quick?

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, great.

14 MR. CASKEY: Yeah. Sorry I couldn't be

15 here earlier, but I work for NEMA, National

16 Electrical Manufacturers Association, and we just

17 had a new CEO start today. His name is Kevin

18 Cosgriff. So replacing our previous CEO is Evan

19 Gaddis. So we had to be there for briefings and

20 stuff like that, so sorry I missed it earlier.

21 I do a lot in the energy field. I

22 manage like 24 people. They're mostly program
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1 managers working in different energy related

2 products and different product sections within

3 NEMA, and then I also do a lot of work with smart

4 grid and involved with the Smart Grid

5 Interoperability Panel, and several other

6 activities sort of like that, so that's --

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Quick.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Maybe were you suggesting

9 going around the room?

10 MR. HAGERMAN: I think so just because -

11 -

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

13 MR. HAGERMAN: -- John doesn't have very

14 much exposure to, I don't think -- John, I'm

15 speaking for you here -- to the manufactured

16 housing industry as a whole. So maybe if

17 everybody could just quickly just go through the

18 room and introduce themselves and who they really

19 represent, I think it'd be helpful for you.

20 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I think

21 that'd be great.

22 MR. HAGERMAN: And John is very
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1 familiar, obviously, with the rulemaking process

2 and everything so.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So should we start

4 with you again, Keith?

5 MR. DENNIS: Sure. Keith Dennis, for

6 International Rural Electric --

7 THE ELECTRONIC RECORDING OFFICER: Okay.

8 Push the mic.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, put the --

10 MR. DENNIS: Yeah. Keith Dennis, with

11 International Rural Electric Cooperative

12 Association. We serve about 75 percent of

13 landmass with electricity and we have a

14 disproportionate share of manufactured housing.

15 About 14.7 percent of our membership is in

16 manufactured housing compared to about 6.5 percent

17 nationwide so.

18 MR. CASKEY: Okay. Thank you.

19 MS. DICKENS: Good afternoon. Ishbel

20 Dickens. I'm the Director of the National

21 Manufactured Home Owners Associate, so

22 representing the people who live and buy
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1 manufactured homes.

2 MR. CASKEY: Okay.

3 MR. DRAKE: I am Scott Drake, with East

4 Kentucky Power, and I manage our energy efficiency

5 programs.

6 MS. EPPERSON: I am Stacey Epperson,

7 Director of NextStep Network, which is a national

8 nonprofit network providing affordable housing

9 with manufactured housing for low-income home

10 buyers.

11 MR. UNGAR: Mark Ezzo stepped out of the

12 time.

13 I'm Lowell Ungar, with American Council

14 for an Energy Efficient Economy.

15 MR. CASKEY: Okay.

16 MR. LACEY: I'm Eric Lacey, of the

17 Responsible Energy Codes Alliance and we

18 (inaudible) the adoption of the International

19 Energy Conservation Code around the country.

20 MR. SANTANA: I am Manny Santana, with

21 Cavco Homes. We are a manufactured home builder.

22 MR. CASKEY: Okay.
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1 MR. LUTER: I'm Rob Luter, with Lippert

2 Components, Elkhart, Indiana. Among other things,

3 we supply fenestration products to the

4 manufactured housing industry.

5 MR. CASKEY: All right.

6 MR. POTTS: Richard Potts, with the

7 Virginia Department -- thanks. Richard Potts,

8 with the Virginia Department of Housing and

9 Community Development. We are the state

10 administrative agency for the manufactured --

11 HUD's manufactured housing program in Virginia,

12 and we also adopt the Building Code for the State.

13 MR. ROY: Robin Roy, Natural Resources

14 Defense Council. Good to see you again, John.

15 MR. CASKEY: Hi. How are you?

16 MR. ROY: My life is good.

17 MR. CASKEY: Good.

18 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss, Manufactured

19 Housing Association for Regulatory Reform. We're

20 based here in Washington. We represent the

21 smaller producers of manufactured housing.

22 MR. TOMPOS: Dave Tompos, from NTA.
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1 We're a third-party testing and inspection agency.

2 MS. STARKEY: Lois Starkey, from the

3 Manufactured Housing Institute. We're the

4 National Trade Association representing all

5 sectors of the industry except for the homeowners

6 --

7 MR. CASKEY: Okay.

8 MS. STARKEY: -- lenders, manufacturers,

9 suppliers, land lease community owners.

10 MR. CASKEY: All right. Thanks.

11 MR. LEVY: Emanuel Levy, Executive

12 Director of the Assistance Building Research

13 Alliance. We're the research arm for the factory

14 building business. We also operate the Energy

15 Star program for factory-built homes.

16 MR. CASKEY: Great. Thank you.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: Great. Thanks for

18 everybody to extend a welcome to John.

19 John, thanks for being here.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, I'm Eileen Hoffman --

21 MR. CASKEY: All right.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: -- the one facilitator --
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1 MR. CASKEY: Hi there.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Hi.

3 MR. CASKEY: Hi.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: So I'm going to go over

5 just an analysis summary and I'm going to do

6 primarily three things here the next maybe four or

7 five slides.

8 One, I'm going to disburse the NOPR

9 process so after you come up with a term sheet --

10 after this Group come up with a term sheet, it's

11 DOE's responsibility to turn that term sheet into

12 a NOPR, if it's approved by the ASRAC and the

13 Secretary, so I will go over that process a little

14 bit.

15 I'm also going to just go over again

16 what DOE's obligation is to meet the -- our

17 statutory authority, which obviously differs from

18 the Working Group obligation, which is to develop

19 a term sheet for ASRAC and for the Secretary.

20 And then I'm going to tell you a little

21 bit about some analysis that I got started at

22 (inaudible) maybe a week ago, 10 days ago to
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1 anticipation of this Group coming together and

2 their need to do some review of the 2015 IECC just

3 so you understand how it's changed over the

4 previous versions of the Code and how it also

5 compares to, you know, versions -- even outdated

6 versions like 2006. I'll talk about that.

7 And I'll end with an offer to take into

8 consideration any other analysis or anything that

9 we can do to help jumpstart this Group's ability

10 to come up with a good Strawman so they can start

11 talking through all the different technical

12 components that the Group needs to discuss and

13 draw a consensus from so.

14 All right. So the rulemaking process,

15 so this is the kind of traditional rulemaking

16 process where we'll do an advance notice for

17 proposed rulemaking. We'll publish that, we'll

18 get your comments, then we'll put out a NOPR and

19 then we'll seek comments on that NOPR, and then

20 we'll put it for final rule.

21 Where we are here in this process is:

22 instead of going through those initial
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1 stages or rounds of initial stages, you're to

2 develop a term sheet. Of course, we've discussed

3 that today in some detail. We've given you copies

4 of two term sheets from previous working group

5 activities to look through. I really encourage

6 you, on your way home on the airplane, on the

7 drive -- well, not on the drive -- on the airplane

8 home, give a good read to that. I mean, it

9 defines -- you know, they're not that long. And

10 in particular, it defines things like -- come up

11 with common definitions, coming up with test

12 procedures, coming up with enforcement, stuff like

13 that.

14 Obviously, the scope of this Working

15 Group is to just focus on the standard and then,

16 as John said earlier -- John Cymbalsky said

17 earlier, if they want to make -- if this Group

18 wants to make a recommendation for ASRAC to think

19 about enforcement or to extend this Working Group

20 to think about enforcement, we can add that to the

21 term sheet or amend that so.

22 And again, if the Working Group reaches
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1 agreement on a proposed standard as presented to

2 ASRAC and if accepted by ASRAC, it's publish in

3 the NOPR -- as a NOPR.

4 All right. So let me just review DOE's

5 obligation here, so this is our statutory

6 authority. DOE must establish energy efficiency

7 standards for manufactured housing. It must

8 provide notice and opportunity for public comment

9 and we must do so in consultation with the

10 Secretary of Housing and Urban Development who may

11 seek further counsel from their Manufactured

12 Housing Consensus Committee.

13 The standards must be based on the most

14 recent version of the IECC. And as everybody

15 knows, that was the 2015 version that I think was

16 published maybe a month ago -- month and a half

17 ago, something like that. So that is our trigger

18 for this meeting.

19 The IECC is not cost effective -- unless

20 the IECC is not cost effective --

21 (Laughter.)

22 MR. HAGERMAN: You've got to make sure
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1 that's clarified on the record there, right? I

2 get in trouble.

3 And last, a more stringent standard is

4 more cost effective and unless the cost

5 effectiveness is based on the impact of IECC on

6 the purchase price of manufactured housing in the

7 total lifecycle, construction and operating costs.

8 And can standards -- standards may

9 consider the following:

10 The design and factory construction

11 techniques of manufactured housing;

12 The use of HUD's climate zones rather than IECC's

13 climate zones;

14 And alternative practices that yield equal or

15 lesser energy use.

16 All right. So again, the statute is

17 DOE's obligations. The obligations of this

18 Working Group is to develop that term sheet. Once

19 that term sheet is accepted by ASRAC and accepted

20 by the secretary, it's turned into a NOPR. And so

21 this is like -- you know, there used to be a

22 little cartoon how a bill becomes a law. This is
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1 how a term sheet becomes a NOPR here.

2 So it goes through different rounds of

3 analysis and the first one is the technology

4 assessment. This is the review of the available

5 energy efficiency and measure options that can go

6 into a manufactured house. I anticipate and my

7 personal opinion is: likely these are the types of

8 things that will be discussed heavily in this

9 Working Group.

10 After that, a price efficiency analysis,

11 price and energy used associated with -- of the

12 energy efficiency measure options is determined or

13 analysis is run on the price and energy use

14 associated with energy efficient measures.

15 Then a lifecycle cost and national

16 impact is done. That is the economic impact on

17 the individual consumers and the consumers as a

18 whole.

19 And then we have environmental

20 assessments and then regulatory impact analysis.

21 So those are those.

22 All right. And we can ask questions --
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1 you can stop me and you can ask questions or we

2 can go through this and you can ask questions.

3 However, you want to see (inaudible) here. I

4 don't anticipate too many questions on the

5 previous two slides.

6 However, I want to announce that, you

7 know, maybe 10 days ago I asked Pacific Northwest

8 National Lab to prepare an energy analysis of the

9 2015 IECC. So what I asked them to do

10 is: compare the current manufactured housing

11 energy use to an energy use expected by a

12 manufactured housing constructed to the 2015 IECC

13 requirements and then also compare it to the 2006,

14 2009 and 2012 goods. As you know -- go ahead.

15 MR. LUTER: Just a question. What

16 baseline are they using for current --

17 THE ELECTRONIC RECORDING OFFICER: Push

18 the mic.

19 MR. LUTER: -- MH energy use?

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, push the --

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Name and mic.

22 MR. LUTER: Oh, I'm sorry.
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1 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Two

2 demerits.

3 MR. LUTER: Two demerits. Robert Luter,

4 with Lippert Components. What baseline is the

5 laboratory using for the current MH energy use; do

6 we know that?

7 MR. HAGERMAN: They'll explain that in

8 their -- in the Report that they provide. That's

9 the best way for me to answer that.

10 MR. LUTER: Do we have --

11 MR. HAGERMAN: What they've done is they

12 --

13 MR. LUTER: -- (inaudible) timing on

14 that Report?

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, I'll give that in a

16 second.

17 MR. LUTER: Okay.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: I can -- so what they've

19 done here is: they build energy models with the

20 values that are cited in the different Code

21 versions, and then they run those energy models

22 through some software that we have that DOE
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1 maintains called "Energy Plus" and that gives you

2 the annual energy usage of the house. Now, of

3 course, there's a lot of assumptions in that like,

4 you know, what are the schedules of the house,

5 what's the draw patterns on the water heater, all

6 that type of things, right? So you'll see all

7 that written in the Report.

8 You can -- well, whenever we have this

9 discussion, you can tell who the engineers are in

10 the room. So as you read the 2015 Code, we've had

11 to throw out some of the Code language that

12 obviously won't apply to manufactured homes like

13 sunrooms, I believe is talked about in the 2015

14 IECC, and they'll make distinctions in their

15 Report as to what has been modified to the 2015

16 IECC so you'll see that. And they're using the

17 energy analysis software called "EnergyPlus."

18 They're supposed to deliver -- even

19 though General Counsel's Office doesn't like me to

20 say this, they're supposed to deliver that Report

21 to me on Friday in which case we need to go

22 through some review of that just to make sure all
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1 the data's right and check it, and so we're going

2 to try to get that out to the Working Group

3 members as soon as possible as early as next week,

4 if we can, okay?

5 And also, I'd like to say, too, that

6 we're very receptive right now to receiving other

7 information that you may have that could help us

8 prepare this or any other relevant analysis or

9 anything that you want to provide us that says,

10 you know, we should examine different levels or

11 different options to the 2015 or the 2012 or the

12 2009. So if things that you already know as an

13 industry that won't work in 2012 or 2015 let us

14 know, right, and we'll be happy to add another

15 table to their analysis with those models run as

16 well.

17 So that was really a teaser more than

18 anything else. So I hope to send that out next

19 week after (inaudible) gives me quick concurrence

20 on it and we'll take it from there. And that's

21 all I have.

22 Any questions over that?
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1 MR. LEVY: Emanuel Levy. Joe, are you

2 expecting that that analysis will include

3 lifecycle costs, evaluations of measures?

4 MR. HAGERMAN: No, it's just the annual

5 energy. The -- both Navigant and Pacific

6 Northwest National Lab are ready to do quick

7 analysis for this Working Group as, you know, you

8 discuss the levels and different requirements that

9 should be considered or not.

10 MR. LEVY: Right.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: And they can easily do

12 the lifecycle analysis for us.

13 MR. LEVY: Yeah.

14 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey, with NEMA. As

15 you said, I don't know a lot about this industry,

16 but dealing with the environmental assessment,

17 certainly I understand the environmental

18 assessment associated with energy use and things

19 like that and/or the lack of energy use.

20 But dealing with indoor air quality, is

21 that -- how is that taken into account and where

22 is the analysis done on that?
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1 MR. HAGERMAN: That's a better question,

2 I think, for most of the stakeholders here. Our

3 software packages don't consider indoor air

4 quality straight so I do see that as a technical

5 issue that will quickly come up as we get -- as we

6 start to map the technical issues that we believe

7 this Committee is going to have to go through.

8 MR. CASKEY: Okay.

9 MR. HAGERMAN: But we are always

10 receptive to reports on indoor air quality impacts

11 and manufactured housing.

12 No other questions?

13 (No audible response.)

14 MR. HAGERMAN: All right.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Dates. Now we're going to

16 look at potential dates for everyone to come back.

17 MS. DICKENS: Before you do that?

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

19 MS. DICKENS: I mean, I have a question

20 about our current schedule.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Sure.

22 MS. DICKENS: When we originally got the
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1 invitation to be part of this Committee -- sorry,

2 this is Ishbel -- we were told that the meetings

3 were Monday and Tuesday of this week from 9:00

4 until 5:00, and I noticed that we're now ending

5 potentially at 3:30 tomorrow afternoon and that's

6 -- that impacts people like me who are traveling.

7 If we'd known we were going to end at 3:30, we

8 could have got flights out tomorrow but, instead,

9 we're having to stay an extra night to get flights

10 out the next day.

11 Is there any reason why we can't

12 continue our work until 5:00 p.m. tomorrow to

13 maybe move us a little bit further forward rather

14 than stopping at 3:30 when most of us are already

15 planning to be here until 5:00?

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me chime in before

17 everyone jumps onboard with this. To give you a

18 little idea of how tomorrow's going to look,

19 tomorrow what we're planning on doing was to give

20 you all an opportunity to identify what are the

21 issues. And I had mentioned that a little bit

22 earlier and I want to give you an idea of how
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1 that's going to look.

2 So probably what we're going to do is:

3 we're going to try to capture them all.

4 We call this a "Mind Map" and not -- we will have

5 to get into some of it, as far as understanding

6 goes, but we want to capture all of what the

7 issues are going to be.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: (Inaudible).

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, it's on your last

10 page of your packet. As well as identify what

11 information's going to be needed, what data's out

12 there, what information are we going to need in

13 order problem-solve these, and then prioritize

14 them. So, you know, as far as us, as facilitators

15 go, we don't have a problem staying.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: No.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Eileen's from DC. She can

18 stay as late as she wants. And my flight's not

19 till later. I could -- because I was under the

20 assumption as well that we were going to be here

21 later so I caught the latest flight out. So as

22 far as facilitators go, we don't have a problem
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1 continuing.

2 The only reason I'm mentioning this is

3 because sometimes folks want to be able to have

4 that information before they actually start

5 problem-solving and that's why we thought that we

6 would end at 3:00 after we had sufficient time to

7 gather the issues, identify the information that

8 was going to be needed, and then schedule the next

9 (inaudible) to be to start problem-solving. That's

10 what the thinking was. But if you all want to

11 continue, we're receptive to it.

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: So with that, I'll leave

14 the discussion up to the Group.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: In other words, the room

16 can meet till 5:00?

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Right.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: The room can meet till

19 5:00 and we can meet till 5:00. We were just sort

20 of looking at how it might go tomorrow so we're

21 really interested in your views.

22 MS. DICKENS: And is there a way we can
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1 get any of these materials first thing in the

2 morning so we'd have them to continue looking at

3 till 5:00 or do we have to wait until after we've

4 identified all the issues before we get even

5 materials?

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, I think we need to

7 identify them all and then go see what

8 information's needed on each one.

9 MS. DICKENS: So we couldn't maybe

10 identify a couple earlier in the day and then have

11 some -- like we did today, we got some information

12 right away.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh, I don't think there's

14 any problem. If the information's available, why

15 not?

16 MS. DICKENS: Yeah.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: I don't see any problem

18 with that, okay?

19 MS. DICKENS: Yeah, yeah.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: If it's available.

21 MS. DICKENS: I'm just trying to be as

22 efficient as possible, I suppose.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, yeah.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, Robin?

3 MR. ROY: Robin Roy. Presume we did do

4 a considerable amount of work --

5 THE ELECTRONIC RECORDING OFFICER: Push

6 the mic please.

7 MR. ROY: Speak into the mic?

8 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible).

9 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Is it not

10 on?

11 MR. ROY: Oh. Robin Roy. Presume we

12 did a lot of work in its earlier draft that wasn't

13 sent over (inaudible) both technical support

14 document and a NOPR that addresses many of these

15 kinds of issues, while that's certainly not an

16 adequate and appropriate reflection of what your

17 position is now, it might be useful to share some

18 of that thinking with this Group as a starting

19 point for discussion. It might circumvent a lot

20 of unnecessary wheel-spinning and give us a decent

21 head start on much of this; is that possible?

22 MR. HAGERMAN: You know, I can say that
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1 the Pacific Northwest National Lab analysis

2 includes energy models. I would say the same

3 energy models that were used in previous analysis

4 or versions of analysis and all that they're doing

5 is update the -- it from 2012 to 2015 and

6 rerunning the whole set. So I don't know if I'm

7 answering your question, but, yes, I think you get

8 that pretty quickly.

9 MR. ROY: Well, for example, like on

10 financing, which may not be part of their -- the

11 model for what's MH using under the 2015, you

12 probably presumably have given some fair amount of

13 thought to what the nature of financing for this

14 particular subset of the community looks like, and

15 that won't show up in the PNNL document on Friday.

16 I suspect that sort of issue is true for indoor

17 air quality and several of these things here.

18 It could be very useful to have some of

19 that information, which you've clearly had to

20 think a great deal about today and which many of

21 the folks here are great experts in. But it would

22 be a good -- I would think it's a good starting
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1 point for them to start reflecting on something

2 rather than to really go from whole cloth and

3 start from there, more than just what's going to

4 be in the PNNL Report.

5 MR. HAGERMAN: I think, you know -- I

6 don't know if -- you want the best way to just

7 circulating things, right? I mean, is it easier

8 to start mapping out all the different, you know,

9 issues and then you ask for materials that relate

10 to those issues and us provide those issues to

11 you? I mean, that's for the whole Working Group

12 to consider.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, one thing that at

14 least that was going through our heads was that --

15 and we see it time and time again with various

16 negotiations, not necessarily just, you know,

17 rulemaking -- is that people request a bunch of

18 data that's never even looked at, right? And so I

19 think that the thinking was is that let's make

20 this -- let's make a target, right? Let's make it

21 so that we can be efficient. Let's figure out

22 exactly what do we need. That's what we'll
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1 gather, that's what we'll give you and that's what

2 we'll use to problem-solve.

3 MR. WEISS: I agree with Robin. Mark

4 Weiss, for MHARR. I agree with Robin, I think it

5 would be helpful to have the previous material

6 developed by DOE to look at, and I would join in

7 that request.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Can I get a sense of the

9 Group?

10 Are you all familiar with the material

11 that's being discussed or mentioned here?

12 MS. DICKENS: Well, I think it'd be

13 great to see it because sometimes you don't know

14 what to ask for if you don't know what's out

15 there, so if we get a sense of what's already

16 available, that may be a jumping off point, at

17 least on some of the aspects we're looking at.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: I think we can

19 accommodate that. It's going to --

20 MS. HOFFMAN: So how will --

21 MR. HAGERMAN: Just the one thing to

22 note again that the scope of that was 2012 and
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1 there has been changes from 2012 to 2015 so.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: And when might that be

3 available then?

4 MR. HAGERMAN: I'd have to --

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Check?

6 MR. HAGERMAN: -- check, yeah.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: So it's possible you --

8 MR. HAGERMAN: As soon as I can get it

9 to you.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: I mean, I think we've

12 been pretty fast at --

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

14 MR. HAGERMAN: You know, if you've asked

15 for something, if we've been trying to, you know -

16 -

17 MS. HOFFMAN: So if you get it tonight -

18 -

19 MR. HAGERMAN: -- we don't want to do it

20 --

21 MS. HOFFMAN: -- then tomorrow?

22 MR. HAGERMAN: As soon as possible.
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1 (Laughter.)

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. I hear you.

3 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Ask him

4 what --

5 MR. HAGERMAN: (Inaudible)?

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Rob?

7 MR. LUTER: Well, just to comment that

8 this is predicated on the most recent

9 International -- or IECC Code, which five weeks

10 ago was the 2012.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.

12 MR. LUTER: So my guess is: there's

13 really not that much change that we couldn't see

14 the thought processes on the first one.

15 If it was five weeks ago, we wouldn't be

16 having this conversation, correct? I mean, to

17 state that, "Well, there's been changes and we've

18 got to --

19 MR. HAGERMAN: Well, there's a lot

20 changes then by the 2012 to 2015 Codes, right? And

21 that's a three-year process that they revised the

22 Code under so is that what you mean? It just got
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1 published four weeks ago -- five weeks ago.

2 MR. LUTER: Understood. My --

3 MR. HAGERMAN: It encompasses three --

4 MR. LUTER: -- understanding --

5 MR. HAGERMAN: -- years' worth of work.

6 MR. LUTER: -- and I don't claim to be -

7 -

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.

9 MR. LUTER: -- an expert on the 2015

10 version -- is that while some of the performance

11 levels of prescriptive requirements have changed

12 somewhat, it's essentially the same Code. Now the

13 bar is a little higher, okay? There was some

14 thought processes that went into getting us to the

15 first bar.

16 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.

17 MR. LUTER: They're going to be the same

18 ones that are going to take us to the second bar -

19 -

20 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.

21 MR. LUTER: -- if we decide to go as far

22 as --
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1 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.

2 MR. LUTER: -- the second bar so.

3 MR. HAGERMAN: And we're definitely

4 committed to getting you those materials as soon

5 as possible.

6 MR. LUTER: Okay. That's fine, thank

7 you.

8 MR. SANTANA: Manny, with Cavco. Since

9 this is about updating the energy standards for

10 the HUD Code, is everybody familiar with what the

11 HUD -- about what energy aspects the HUD Code

12 currently requires?

13 MR. EZZO: Yes.

14 MR. SANTANA: You are.

15 (Laughter.)

16 MR. SANTANA: I mean, is that a better

17 place to start, you know, search? We also --

18 because -- so we're discussing distributing what

19 DOE proposed or has been working on.

20 Does everybody have access and

21 understand what the baseline is, you know, what

22 we're trying to improve? Because we don't want to
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1 start and say, "Okay. Well, we've got" -- not

2 calling the HUD Code a Pinto, "But we've got a

3 Pinto, you know, and DOE's been working on Ferrari

4 and this will" -- if we don't see what we have to

5 start with, there might be a kazman (ph) between

6 it without what DOE's been working on. We should

7 establish some kind of baseline.

8 MR. EZZO: (Inaudible). I believe your

9 analogy is (inaudible).

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. EZZO: A baseline?

12 MR. SANTANA: A Corolla, how about a

13 Corolla?

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, gee, a Pinto.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Eric?

16 MR. LACEY: I'm Eric Lacey. I just

17 wanted to circle back on what Robert Luter said. I

18 sat through all the hearings on the IECC 2015 and

19 I think there are about 40 changes to the

20 Residential Code and almost -- most of them are

21 not really going to be a big impact here. In

22 fact, I think there are very, very few that will
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1 have any real meaningful impact in terms of energy

2 efficiency or cost effectiveness.

3 So I do think any analysis, you know,

4 based on the 2012 IECC, is going to be -- it's

5 going to be very relevant. It might not be

6 exactly the same, but I think it's going to be

7 very close.

8 So I think, you know, to the extent that

9 you can make any materials available on the 2012,

10 I think very, very little of that is going to

11 change in the 2015. So that -- in some ways, I

12 think that's an advantage that helps speed up this

13 process.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. I'll tell you

15 what --

16 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: This is Kavita

17 Vaidyanathan. I just want to clarify. I just

18 want to let you know that we're happy to give you

19 that analysis, but just realize that it was in

20 draft form. It never went out onto a NOPR or a

21 final rule, so just to keep that information in

22 mind when we do give out the analysis. Don't
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1 think that it was DOE's final position in any of

2 these aspects.

3 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. And to second

4 that, just say, too, if you have any information

5 that I could share with the people that are

6 updating the energy simulation runs right now from

7 '12 to '15 -- oh, and changes to '12 or changes to

8 '15 that specifically impact manufactured housing,

9 let me know and I can get that cued up for

10 everybody, all right?

11 So if like, Manny, if you already know

12 some things do work, don't work, et cetera,

13 provide those to us as quickly as possible and

14 we'll put that in as a column of analysis that

15 they can, you know, quickly do so -- quickly run.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So before we

17 get too far off --

18 MR. HAGERMAN: Oh, we did get one

19 question from Michael Lubliner.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

21 MR. HAGERMAN: So Michael Lubliner has

22 been listening this whole time. He says, "Does
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1 the PNNL analysis evaluate hot water options such

2 as pipe insulation, heat pump, water heaters,

3 other appliance options such as Energy Star

4 refrigerators," et cetera, et cetera?

5 And so Michael's -- to answer Michael's

6 question, I don't actually know yet in terms of

7 all the different combinations that they run -- or

8 that they are running for us. They're doing it

9 in, you know, a short time frame, 10 days, but I

10 will make sure that they list all those

11 assumptions in the analysis that they provide so.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So before we

13 get too far off on that, we're talking about dates

14 that we could do that, that we could spend some

15 time if we need to identify other documents,

16 right? We could spend a little bit more time

17 doing that before you open up for public comment.

18 So as far as dates go, we do have -- oh, you know

19 what? Yeah, we didn't (inaudible) did we for

20 tomorrow?

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Right. Yeah, we need to

22 know if you'd like to stay till 5:00? We are
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1 available.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So --

3 MS. HOFFMAN: So --

4 MR. RAMIREZ: -- you know what? Let's

5 do --

6 MR. ROY: It depends to me a little bit

7 whether we can get some of that material before

8 then.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.

10 MR. ROY: That would make it useful.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: So --

12 MR. ROY: Otherwise, you'll just be

13 standing here.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.

15 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah,

16 (inaudible).

17 MS. HOFFMAN: Why don't we --

18 MR. ROY: Yeah, I'm not --

19 MS. HOFFMAN: -- do a status check at

20 3:00 and we'll know and --

21 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.
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1 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Because -- okay.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: So the Group may stay as

4 late as 5:00.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Right. We're not going

6 any longer than 5:00 so -- okay?

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: So future dates when --

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Right, yeah. We're future

11 dates and --

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, I'm bringing up

13 their calendars.

14 (Voices off record.)

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, we think that's it,

16 yeah. Okay.

17 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Is this for

18 another case (inaudible)?

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. Yeah.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, we're going to try

21 to get a few of them on the books here.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. So we have two dates
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1 in August and then three sets of dates for

2 September.

3 So we have August 28th and 29th here at

4 DOE.

5 MR. WEISS: Well, I can't do that. I

6 have non-refundable reservations. It's right

7 before Labor Day.

8 MS. STARKEY: I'll be out of the

9 country.

10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: My wife's

11 birthday on the 28th.

12 (Laughter.)

13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I'm

14 (inaudible).

15 MR. RAMIREZ: You don't want to bring

16 her to DC?

17 MS. HOFFMAN: You don't want to --

18 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: There you

19 go.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, let me see.

21 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Would

22 earlier that week be better?
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: All right. The --

2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The week

3 before the holiday.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: The 25th and 26th, will

5 that work?

6 MR. UNGAR: Talking August?

7 MS. HOFFMAN: August.

8 MR. UNGAR: The 21st -- 22nd?

9 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

10 MS. EPPERSON: I'll be unable to on the

11 26th. I'll be in New York.

12 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: So will I.

13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I think

14 (inaudible) as well.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah, it's going to be

16 hard to do this (inaudible).

17 MS. EPPERSON: Yeah, it is.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: I'm glad you're all here

19 and Michael, too, on the phone.

20 MS. EPPERSON: Yes, ma'am.

21 MR. DRAKE: I suspect the 25th and 26th

22 is going to be better for the Group --
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1 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Same

2 (inaudible).

3 MS. HOFFMAN: For the Group.

4 MR. DRAKE: -- compared to the latter

5 part of the week because it's --

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

7 MR. DRAKE: -- bumping up against a

8 national holiday.

9 MR. WEISS: And unfortunately, I'm gone

10 the whole week.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: You're gone the whole

12 week.

13 MR. WEISS: How about the week before?

14 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, the

15 week before?

16 MR. WEISS: Maybe that'd be better.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: Let me see.

18 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The week

19 before (inaudible).

20 MS. HOFFMAN: The 21st -- 22nd? Let me

21 just see what -- hold on.

22 What did I do with the dates?
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1 The 21st and 22nd, does that work?

2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Unh-huh

3 (negatively).

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Let's see, August -- 21st

5 and 22nd, does that work better? No? For both

6 the -- for both dates you can't do it?

7 MR. UNGAR: I may be able to call in a

8 couple hours on the 21st but, you know,

9 (inaudible).

10 MR. HAGERMAN: Do feel comfortable

11 sending a delegate?

12 MR. UNGAR: Everybody from our

13 organization will be at the conference that day.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, it's a conference, oh.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

16 MR. UNGAR: (inaudible) knowledge of the

17 subject.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, let me back up

19 because it seems like quite a few folks were about

20 to give the --

21 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: But I hate

22 to do (inaudible) this year.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: The (inaudible) be able to

2 do the 25th and 26th.

3 Can you get a delegate in?

4 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Counsel, I'm

5 gone that weekend (inaudible).

6 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That

7 weekend's really tough.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Right, tough. So if we

9 did the 21st and 22nd, we have rooms here, A, D.

10 MR. LUTER: How about the 20th and 21st?

11 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Looks like

12 the 21st and 22nd (inaudible).

13 MS. HOFFMAN: But the 21st and 22nd

14 sounds like it's going to work better.

15 Can -- well, how many people can do the

16 --

17 MR. HAGERMAN: All we need is two-thirds

18 --

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Two-thirds.

20 MR. HAGERMAN: -- to agree with this.

21 (Laughter.)

22 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Well, you
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1 even commented (inaudible).

2 MR. HAGERMAN: But you can sue us later.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm just joking,

5 everybody, just to --

6 MR. RAMIREZ: We're going to have to

7 possibly use alternates if need be.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah, right.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: And also remember, you

10 could still vote -- use the --

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: -- webinar and call in.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: We were checking regularly

15 to make sure that there are some comments, if any,

16 so.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. So let's say at

18 this point the 21st and 22nd?

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, see the thumbs

20 (inaudible).

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Nine to 5:00?

22 Who can do it? Let's see.
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1 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible)

2 my alternate.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, alternate? Okay.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. Okay.

5 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah,

6 yeah.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So we've got a

9 critical mass. Not that you're not critical but -

10 -

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

13 MR. LUTER: Well, wait -- the online

14 version is like a GoToMeeting --

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

16 MR. LUTER: -- or a webinar or --

17 MR. RAMIREZ: GoToMeeting, I guess.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. It's a GoToMeeting,

19 yeah.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: GoToMeeting.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So that's our next

22 meeting. Okay.
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1 And yes?

2 MS. DICKENS: Okay. If you could --

3 could you ask the people on the phone if they're

4 getting really good -- if they're hearing

5 everything really well? I'd just like to know

6 whether it's worth just trying it that way for

7 next time.

8 Will you ask them? Thank you.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: You could send a delegate

10 and do that as well.

11 MS. DICKENS: That's not (inaudible)

12 because I've got someone who lives here and I can

13 listen in (inaudible) or something?

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'm

15 sorry, there's no dates. Okay.

16 The next possible dates we've got are

17 September 11th and 12th.

18 Does that work?

19 MS. DICKENS: No, it does not work for

20 me.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: I get a number of --

22 MS. DICKENS: I (inaudible) always
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1 (inaudible).

2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I don't know

3 that we filed (inaudible).

4 MS. HOFFMAN: How about any other dates

5 in that week in September?

6 MS. DICKENS: The 9th and 10th I could.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: The 9th?

8 MS. DICKENS: On Monday, the 9th, yeah.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Let's see. We don't have

10 rooms.

11 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I could make

12 the 9th and 10th work.

13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Is it worth

14 it?

15 (Voices off record.)

16 MS. HOFFMAN: I think. Let me just see.

17 She's got all the rooms done. We don't have rooms

18 here and we don't rooms here.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, we don't have rooms

20 on those days.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: No.

22 MS. DICKENS: The 16th and 17th?
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1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: You can find -- probably

3 find some rooms? Okay. So we can do the 9th and

4 10th. They'll find rooms here, okay?

5 MR. LUTER: When you say, "Find rooms,"

6 meeting rooms.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Meeting rooms, yes. Yeah,

8 meeting rooms. So we'll do the 9th and 10th here.

9 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: 9th and

10 10th. September 9th.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So our next set is

12 December -- I'm sorry, September 9th and 10th, at

13 DOE.

14 All right. Next, what about September

15 22nd and 23rd; does that work? That looks like a

16 good critical -- good. Okay.

17 So September 22nd and 23rd, DOE. And

18 you have rooms here to go to. Okay. And I don't

19 know if you want me to keep going. We're -- you -

20 - we may know by then where we're heading.

21 Do you want me to schedule anything

22 further?
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1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: One more.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: One more. Okay.

3 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Just in

4 case.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Let's see, we've got a

6 meeting, unfortunately, the two of us on the 29th

7 and the morning of the 30th, but we could do

8 October 1st and 2nd. Not 1st and 2nd, that's a

9 holiday -- 2nd and 3rd.

10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's the

11 (inaudible) deadline.

12 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, it's

13 going through a deadline.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: That goes in --

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Why don't we -- I think

16 we have to be done by then, but just in case we

17 need to extend it couple of days, let's go ahead

18 and get it locked up.

19 MS. EPPERSON: (Inaudible).

20 MR. HAGERMAN: It's a failsafe.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: The 2nd and 3rd?

22 If it's a holiday, do you want us to do
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1 the 3rd and 4th?

2 MS. EPPERSON: Well, the 4th is a

3 Saturday.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, right, I'm gone.

5 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Which

6 holiday is it?

7 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Let me get

8 -- which holiday's on the 1st?

9 MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah, I think you --

10 there's not --

11 MS. HOFFMAN: October --

12 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: My birthday

13 at least.

14 MS. EPPERSON: Well, of course.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: October the 1st.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: October --

17 MS. HOFFMAN: What holiday is the 1st?

18 MR. RAMIREZ: It's not.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: There's nothing, no.

20 So the 1st and 2nd we can do, okay?

21 We'll have that as a failsafe, okay?

22 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Is that the
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1 1st and 2nd?

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Right.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Of October. So let me

5 just review the dates we have, okay?

6 August 21st and 22nd;

7 September 9th and 10th;

8 September 22nd and 23rd;

9 And then October 1st and 2nd.

10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Would those

11 all be -- start at 9:00, end at --

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Nine, yes. Yeah, let make

13 ask because is it easier for some folks that are

14 taking a train, does 9:00 work or do you --

15 MR. SANTANA: Ten would be better.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Ten would be better for

17 you, Manuel.

18 Anybody else or do you --

19 MR. SANTANA: I can make it 9:00, yeah.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. All right. So

21 we'll do 9:00 to 5:00. Okay. All right. And

22 we'll, you know, put that down. And if you can't
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1 make it, we'll -- we have the GoToMeeting and you

2 also have alternates and there's no --

3 unfortunately, there's no universal one day

4 everyone can do it. Okay.

5 MR. LUTER: Rob, with Lippert.

6 Are the participants in the GoToMeeting

7 funding this effective?

8 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I think

9 so.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Could we get any comments

11 on that?

12 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I think

13 so. Yeah, (inaudible) said they hear (inaudible).

14 MR. LUTER: Okay, great.

15 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I have

16 (inaudible).

17 MR. LUTER: I've used it with brought

18 success in other organizations and --

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Can you just ask them if

20 they feel that they're participating and ask them

21 how they really feel? Okay. All right.

22 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Why
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1 (inaudible)?

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: So we've got dates. And

5 also, I think now, do you want to do a little bit

6 of interest base in (inaudible)?

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Because it's --

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. So we heard that

10 you all are going to be looking for some

11 information to help identify what your issues are

12 and part of what we want to do is: we don't want

13 you to necessarily come in and get locked in on

14 your positions, right, of what your options are.

15 We want to first identify what are the

16 issues and why? And so we want to -- that's what

17 we want to spend the time on tomorrow just

18 identifying them, why are they issues and then

19 also identifying that information.

20 And when we talk about, you know,

21 focusing on the interest, we find a lot of times

22 parties are arguing back and forth and we find out
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1 that if they understood the real reason why they

2 wanted something, it opens up the door to far more

3 possibilities, right? I can't tell you how many

4 times I've been in mediation where I'll come in

5 and I'll tell the folks -- or I'll ask them,

6 they're going back and forth, "Why do you need

7 this?" And I get the understanding, I go back

8 into the other room and I'll tell them, "Well,

9 this is why they're -- you know, they want it."

10 And you'd be shocked after about a year of them

11 negotiating and I explained that and they say,

12 "Oh, we could do that. Not that way, but we could

13 do it, right?" Because they just never

14 understood. They never explained why something

15 was needed. So we really want to make sure that

16 we spend the time to do that so the what and the

17 why before we start getting into the hows, okay?

18 Did you want to add something onto that?

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, just to look at not

20 only your own interests, but what are everyone

21 else's too and how we can maybe reach some sort of

22 mutual interest and also legitimate separate
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1 interest that everyone has, but how we can help

2 together devise a standard that will actually

3 reflect the positive thing for everybody, if

4 that's at all possible.

5 And the other thing is to look at the

6 goals, you know, of this process and to reach a

7 rule that works, that makes sense. I think -- do

8 you want to use the Mind Map just to see...

9 MR. RAMIREZ: I don't keep Mind Maps.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: ...if they can agree on

11 the issues to look at, to think about for

12 tomorrow?

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, yeah. See, these

14 are -- what we're trying to do with the Mind Map

15 was to use this as a starting off point. From

16 what we understand, these were some of the obvious

17 issues that were going to be identified and so we

18 threw them up here, right? So we have hotter IECC

19 2015 climate zones; Manufactured housing types

20 that need to be treated differently; Alternative

21 construction; Climate zone impacts on single

22 versus double or other specialty types;
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1 Indoor air quality; Financing; Impact on EP's

2 Energy Star program for manufactured housing.

3 From we understand, those were some of

4 the blatant ones, right? We, ideally, would like

5 to -- for you to come in and say, "Okay. These

6 are other ones, right?" That would be headlines

7 versions, that we call them the "headline" version

8 because otherwise we're not going to be able to

9 put a whole paragraph up on here. We could,

10 right, but then for you to see them and read them,

11 it's going to start getting difficult.

12 We could make this so you could see them

13 a little bit better if you wanted to focus on one

14 particular issue. So that's what we're going to

15 hopefully start off on tomorrow. And at that

16 time, if you want to take a little bit of time to

17 tell the story and help develop the underground,

18 we'll allow for that time but at some point, we're

19 going to try capture into just a little headline

20 for the map, okay?

21 MS. HOFFMAN: But when you came in

22 today, was there a major issue for each of you? I
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1 would like to sort of brainstorm what that might

2 be.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh, do you want to do that

4 now?

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, we have till --

6 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We've got

7 time.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: We've got time so --

9 MR. RAMIREZ: What are they?

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. I thought I'd go

11 around -- yes?

12 MR. LEVY: Can I -- I have a list of

13 issues. I looked at this earlier, but I'm just

14 wondering where these came from -- Emanuel Levy --

15 where these particular items came from and why you

16 thought alternative construction, for example,

17 merited being at that level is energy (inaudible).

18 MR. RAMIREZ: There's no -- I'll tell

19 you right now, there's no level on here, right,

20 because we're just trying to capture them. We

21 just threw him on here for memory because, look,

22 once we get them all up there -- do you see what
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1 I'm doing over here?

2 Well, I got this little thing over here.

3 I grabbed what was Number 7 and I just -- I'm

4 dropping it over here, right? Right now, as a

5 matter fact, it don't even help you. I'll take

6 the numbering off. There's no priority right now

7 so after we put all the issues up there, we agree

8 on which ones the Group is going to tackle and

9 then we prioritize them, which we can do first,

10 second, third. So, no, there's no priority at all

11 on here.

12 Can we just find a -- it -- we just

13 went, throw it up there.

14 MR. LEVY: I'm delighted to suggest that

15 another set --

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

17 MR. LEVY: -- based upon this, is a

18 starting point.

19 Climate zones, I think, is certainly --

20 I mean, these are all issues that are part of and

21 parcel of a standard. They usually come up as

22 important elements that can be broken away and
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1 talked about individually. Climate zones, I

2 think, is definitely an issue.

3 HUD, IECC and others.

4 Envelope thermal requirements, which is

5 going to probably be a huge issue.

6 Equipment HVAC and DHW issues getting in

7 a sizing type, things that Mike Lubliner brought

8 up earlier.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Equipment what?

10 MR. LEVY: Equipment HVAC and DHW. These

11 are basically heating and cooling and high water

12 equipment.

13 The fourth one I have is: other

14 component properties like glazing ducts, other

15 components other than thermal envelope equipment.

16 The fifth one I have is: ventilation.

17 Again, I'm -- you have that up there. But

18 ventilation in a broader sense including whole

19 house tightness, ventilation, indoor air quality

20 issues that are all interrelated.

21 And the last one I have on my list is:

22 financial criteria, which would include
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1 issues like affordability, economic assumptions

2 and those kinds of things.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: So financial being

4 different than financing.

5 MR. LEVY: Right. It might be, for

6 example, on the left side of a cost analysis, what

7 assumptions are you making when you do that kind

8 of analysis? And broadly, what impact does this

9 have on affordability? What proposal? What --

10 how do you -- how are you impacting the ability of

11 people to buy homes, for example? That would all

12 be under the financial criteria catchall.

13 MR. WEISS: In terms of broad -- Mark

14 Weiss, MHARR. In terms of broad issues, I would

15 suggest affordability be broken out on its own

16 because that's a major issue, but affordability

17 cost effectiveness and justification.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: I broke up the

19 affordability.

20 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible).

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Any other -- did you have

22 --
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1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And this is

2 not limiting, right, just because you don't speak

3 up now.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: We're going to spend more

6 time tomorrow, but if you have some core ones, you

7 know.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: First, Emanuel and then

9 Mark, yeah.

10 MR. LEVY: No, no.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, you didn't have a

12 comment.

13 Mark, sorry.

14 MR. EZZO: Mark Ezzo. Is anything up

15 here relating to competitiveness with other types

16 of housing whether it'd be modular housing or

17 site-built housing?

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Not that I'm aware of so.

19 MR. EZZO: Okay. That's --

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Do you want to put

21 something up there on that?

22 MR. EZZO: I think it should be
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1 discussed because the -- I don't know when this

2 goes into effect, but nobody in the country is on

3 2015 now. It's likely that there will be a lot of

4 jurisdictions that aren't on it when this hits.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Somebody has to help me

6 with "competitiveness" spelling.

7 MR. EZZO: I don't know.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: C-O-M --

9 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: C-O-M-P --

10 MS. HOFFMAN: -- P-E-T-I-T-I-V-E-N-E-S.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. I'll double12 check that will the Spell Check later.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: All right.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Let me see, there's one

16 more I had (inaudible) here. Yeah, four or five

17 (inaudible).

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. One of the broad

19 items you have, yeah.

20 MR. TOMPOS: Dave Tompos. This may be

21 addressed under the EMH types that need to be

22 treated difficulty, but I have concerns with some
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1 of the smaller singlewide homes. We're going to

2 get into some transportation issues if we have to

3 go from 2x4 to 2x6 walls in some zones.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

5 MR. TOMPOS: And not being able to meet

6 handicap requirements and still keep them the same

7 size. I'll be (inaudible). So that's kind of a -

8 - how do we put that in a nutshell?

9 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm just putting "size."

10 MR. TOMPOS: "Sizing" would be great.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

12 MR. WEISS: Just to follow up on what

13 Dave said -- I'm Mark Weiss, MHARR. Just to

14 follow up on what Dave said, you know, the broader

15 category of interaction with other pertinent

16 requirements, regulation standards that may be

17 applicable, you know. I don't know how you put

18 that into a nutshell but --

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Interaction with other

20 standards?

21 MR. WEISS: Yeah, criteria, et cetera.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Right. And we have
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1 suggestions from Michael Lubliner, energy labeling

2 and environmental externalities.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Energy labeling.

4 Are those two different things?

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Two different things,

6 yeah.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Energy labeling.

8 What was the second one?

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Environmental

10 externalities.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

12 MR. WEISS: What's "environmental

13 externality"?

14 MS. HOFFMAN: We'll ask Mike.

15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's part

16 of the (inaudible) candidate list.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: What?

18 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's part

19 of the (inaudible) candidate list.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, externalities? Okay.

21 (Laughter.)

22 MS. HOFFMAN: And Peter Schneider,
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1 resiliency to more severe weather events and

2 durability.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's see, can you say it

4 again?

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Resiliency, more severe

6 weather events and durability. Two different...

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Any other -- yes?

9 MR. UNGAR: It overlaps with some of

10 these things, but I think it -- you started with

11 manufactured housing types that need to be treated

12 differently, but I also think there's manufactured

13 housing characteristics both in terms of the

14 actual buildings and also the process that you --

15 you know, in terms of some of the -- IECC has

16 intended for a particular process. There may be a

17 translation to deal with the factory-built

18 process.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Any other issue?

20 MS. EPPERSON: Stacey and NextStep. I

21 think consumer awareness or support education is a

22 topic because whatever we decide here there's
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1 going to be an impact on the consumer and how they

2 interact with it.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: So consumer awareness and

4 --

5 MS. EPPERSON: Education support.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: -- education support.

7 Now, do you see subcategories forming

8 or...

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah?

10 MR. SANTANA: I know this (inaudible)

11 focus -- I'm sorry. This is Manny, with Cavco. I

12 know that we're not going to focus on enforcement,

13 but does that include implementation how are we

14 supposed to build it? You know, if some of these

15 rules deal with -- you know, they're going to deal

16 with tests. You know, some of these tests can't

17 be done in a factory setting. Some of these are

18 going to have to be done onsite, you know, so that

19 might have to affect, you know, the frequently.

20 You know, is that in our, I guess, realm

21 of discussion? So how things -- you know, how --

22 what we determine gets implemented, you know?
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1 Because that's going to have a factor in what is

2 feasible and what isn't.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: How implemented? Okay.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Do you want to comment,

5 Joe?

6 Yeah?

7 MR. LUTER: Rob, with Lippert. Just a

8 question next to climate zone impacts, you have

9 single versus double.

10 Are there other --

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, so you know what?

12 MR. LUTER: -- specialty types?

13 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm going to go ahead and

14 put the numbering on here just so it's easier for

15 us to identify them as --

16 MR. LUTER: Sure.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: So what number are you

18 talking about?

19 MR. LUTER: Okay. 5.1 and 5.2, could

20 you elaborate on what those mean; are you talking

21 about windows?

22 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No.
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1 MR. LUTER: Single versus double?

2 MR. RAMIREZ: No, I think that's the

3 actual unit itself, right?

4 MR. LUTER: Singlewide, doublewide.

5 Okay.

6 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Singlewide,

7 doublewide, yeah.

8 MR. LUTER: Never mind.

9 (Voices off record.)

10 MR. RAMIREZ: And we'll send this out.

11 We can email this out to the Group tonight --

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah, you can have it.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: -- you know, before you

14 leave so that you'll have it with you for tonight.

15 MR. LUTER: Are we able to discuss any

16 of these before we leave?

17 MS. HOFFMAN: Sure.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: It depends up -- it's all

19 to you.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. Well, which one

21 would you like to discuss? Or there's a number of

22 things you can do with this: you can prioritize,
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1 you can lump together, or you can say whatever

2 you'd like to discuss and --

3 MR. LUTER: Rob, with Lippert. I

4 wouldn't mind commenting on Number 1, three

5 versus, what, give or seven zones, eight is it?

6 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible).

7 MR. LUTER: In our industry, houses have

8 wheels. And I kind of want to totally speak for

9 the manufacturers, but they have a tough time

10 knowing where they're going to go. Ultimately,

11 once they hit a dealer's lot, they could go

12 anywhere. To go with the traditional HUD zones

13 would simplify things a great deal.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, so, let me ask the

15 Group here because part of my concern is that I

16 want to make sure that the folks are prepared to -

17 - you know, to talk about this and to problem18 solve.

19 So how deep do you want to go here, just

20 want to have the conversation on which one are we

21 going to use here or are you looking to try to get

22 agreement now whether it be HUD or -- is it that
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1 simple of "Yeah, it's HUD"? Is it that simple of

2 a discussion or do we need more discussion on it?

3 MR. SANTANA: Manny, with Cavco. You

4 know, it seems -- would it -- would -- is there

5 any way that we can get an explanation as to the

6 scope of what we're trying -- we're going to do,

7 you know, to get it -- you know, if we explain

8 what is going to be contained within the Energy

9 Code, you know, then we -- if we say, "Climate

10 zones," you know, "fenestrations, U-values (ph)

11 221323, air infiltration, you know, is all of it

12 there? Because then, you know, do we have a game

13 plan as to how to approach it, how to attack it or

14 are we just going to kind of go all -- because one

15 thing might be based on something else.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: But you know what? That's

17 exactly what we're talking about, right? That's

18 exactly what we're talking about as far as

19 identifying what are the issues and then what

20 information is needed and then prioritizing them

21 because we might have to deal with something up

22 here before we get into some other discussion. And
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1 then that's some of my hesitation here, right?

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. But does the DOE

3 have --

4 MR. HAGERMAN: Let me just --

5 MS. HOFFMAN: -- any idea on the scope?

6 MR. HAGERMAN: Let me answer the

7 question this way: so it's up to this Group to

8 wrestle with that, so if you want to, you know,

9 use your comments as Strawman to start ordering

10 the discussion here, then present it to the Group

11 that way and get them to ask if that's something

12 they want to proceed with, right? We do not have

13 a set outline of what needs to -- what it needs to

14 cover or not.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: So do you want to -- at

16 least these initial ones, did you want to start

17 putting them in order?

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, let's hear first,

19 yeah, from --

20 MS. STARKEY: I think it might be

21 helpful. I think -- I see some overlap. I think

22 what -- where Manny's going is there's -- there
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1 are different functional areas, you know, you've

2 got ducts, you've got the envelope, you've got --

3 and I think once -- if we maybe take these and try

4 to come down to, you know, half of -- you know,

5 group them because I think there's a number that

6 are similar, and that might be helpful. I mean,

7 you know, for example, indoor air quality,

8 ventilation...

9 MR. RAMIREZ: So you want to start

10 putting them into broader groups.

11 MS. STARKEY: I would.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Right.

13 MS. STARKEY: I would suggest that it

14 would be easier if we --

15 MR. RAMIREZ: So what would --

16 MS. STARKEY: -- narrow the number down.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Like those two that you

18 just mentioned, what would be the broad category

19 for that?

20 MS. STARKEY: Venetian, air quality?

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Air quality?

22 MR. LEVY: That's actually where I was
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1 starting with the six categories. I thought those

2 subsumed pretty much everything that's out there.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So which ones were

4 they, what numbers were those?

5 MR. LEVY: Well, climate zones was

6 certainly an issue in and of itself.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

8 MR. LEVY: Envelope thermal requirements

9 will bring a couple things into play, but that it

10 will be a major part of whatever the standard

11 looks like.

12 The equipment, HVAC equipment and hot

13 water equipment together are an issue. You could

14 add appliances to that. Other components like

15 glazing, ducts.

16 Again, the intent here is to lump them

17 together first and then see whether --

18 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Right.

19 MR. LEVY: -- they need to be pulled

20 apart later.

21 Ventilation is kind of its own issue,

22 which gets to indoor air quality and tightness.
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1 And financial criteria gets into

2 affordability, gets into all the issues we talked

3 about in terms of the customer, their perspective

4 and the (inaudible) cost determinations.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: So the ones that are up

6 here, which ones could we start putting off of

7 these?

8 MR. LEVY: I mean --

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: See, because what we could

11 do is, say for example, energy labeling -- and I'm

12 just -- it's just a hypothetical. I mean, I could

13 start -- we could start doing that, we could start

14 moving stuff over and grouping them.

15 MR. SANTANA: Well, the (inaudible) I

16 think 15 could probably be a (inaudible) --

17 THE ELECTRONIC RECORDING OFFICER: Push

18 the mic please.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, push the mic, your

20 mic.

21 MR. SANTANA: I think I'm on.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, your mic.
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1 MR. SANTANA: Right, yeah, apologize. I

2 think that 15 could be a subset of -- yeah, right,

3 because when we say, "Sizing" -- well, actually,

4 no, that wasn't equipment sizing. That was sizing

5 of the units.

6 MR. LUTER: Yeah, I'm talking home

7 sizing.

8 MR. SANTANA: Yeah, sorry about that.

9 That was different.

10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's okay.

11 MS. STARKEY: Well, let's just start

12 with overall (inaudible) affordability (inaudible)

13 financing up there.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Which number was that that

15 you --

16 MS. STARKEY: That was on the --

17 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Do the

18 microphone, yeah.

19 MS. STARKEY: Sorry.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: You know what? Let me

21 just clarify this one real quick before you do

22 that. I'm just going to put "sizing of unit" so
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1 that way it's a little clearer.

2 So what number are you talking about

3 that we can start throwing stuff under?

4 MS. STARKEY: Overall affordability,

5 where did I see that?

6 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Number 12.

7 MS. STARKEY: Number 12.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

9 MS. STARKEY: You could bring financial

10 into that. I mean, just for the sake of

11 discussion, financing, financial --

12 MR. RAMIREZ: You're going to have to

13 give me a number.

14 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Nine and 11

15 now.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: No, 9 was different than

17 financial, right?

18 MS. STARKEY: Well, for the purpose of

19 just discussion to try to -- I -- you know, it

20 might be helpful if we --

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Affordability.

22 MS. STARKEY: I think we're like --
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1 we've got too many. We've got 24 items here and I

2 think we could --

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah, I've gotten some

4 more from Peter Schneider.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Where exactly?

6 (Laughter.)

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Because which -- before

8 you do that, so which other ones go under 11?

9 MS. STARKEY: Number 10.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Number 10?

11 MS. STARKEY: Number 10, Number --

12 MR. RAMIREZ: See, that's a problem with

13 numbering them too soon. They start moving around

14 --

15 MS. STARKEY: Yeah.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: -- and still get to look

17 at the new numbers but --

18 MS. STARKEY: Yeah, those three. I

19 think that does it for that one. I don't know,

20 you could maybe put -- you might even be able to

21 put competitiveness down under that overall

22 affordability. That would be my thinking, but
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1 maybe somebody else --

2 MR. RAMIREZ: We'll get into --

3 MS. STARKEY: -- has another idea.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: -- a little bit later.

5 MS. STARKEY: And justification could go

6 under there. We may want to split them out later,

7 but I think if we start thinking about them in

8 terms of groups, it might be --

9 MR. SANTANA: You know, 20 could

10 probably go, you know, under, what was that, 6?

11 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: New

12 values?

13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

14 MR. LUTER: The glazing element of 9 --

15 Rob, with Lippert. The glazing element of 9 could

16 go under Items 6 as well.

17 MR. LACEY: Glazing (inaudible) services

18 could be broken up (inaudible).

19 MR. LUTER: Correct.

20 MR. LACEY: Yeah.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Glazing separate?

22 MR. LACEY: But under that same general
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1 category.

2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Because

3 you're going to have (inaudible).

4 MR. LACEY: Yeah.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh.

6 MR. SANTANA: You know, under 18, I'd

7 like to add a subset of performance rather than

8 prescriptive just to keep that in mind.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Performance and --

10 MR. SANTANA: Rather than prescriptive

11 performance.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Rather.

13 Prescriptive?

14 MS. STARKEY: Could 3 and 15 go together

15 or 16, 3 and 16?

16 MR. RAMIREZ: 3 and 16.

17 Are they the same; are you saying is

18 that duplicate?

19 MS. STARKEY: I think they're subsets,

20 yeah, but I think it's a subset. That would be my

21 --

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Which is a subset?
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1 MS. STARKEY: I'd say 3 is a subset of

2 16, but --

3 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: 14 and 15

4 would probably be put together.

5 (Voices off record.)

6 MR. RAMIREZ: 14 and 15 you said?

7 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay. 13

8 and 14.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: 13 and 14.

10 MS. STARKEY: 13 and 14, yeah.

11 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: 10 and 11,

12 should that be?

13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: If we could

14 get --

15 MS. HOFFMAN: See if we can make it a

16 little bit -- can you make it a little bit --

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: -- like larger or maybe

19 not? Better?

20 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: 10 and 11

21 go together?

22 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I don't know
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1 what sizing the unit is.

2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I'm talking

3 about --

4 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Equipment?

5 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No, no, no,

6 I'm not talking about equipment. Small -- the

7 small units that (inaudible).

8 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Oh, it's

9 something else.

10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Not have any

11 windows in it.

12 MS. STARKEY: So maybe that 11 could go

13 under 14 or with 14.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Where'd you

16 put it?

17 MR. RAMIREZ: 13 now.

18 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: There's --

19 MR. RAMIREZ: I mean, I --

20 MS. STARKEY: Image characteristics that

21 need to be treated differently.

22 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Oh, yeah,
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1 yeah, yeah.

2 MS. STARKEY: Yeah, I think they could

3 go together. 11 and 13 could go together.

4 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Because the

5 old 11 (inaudible) talking to 11.

6 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Is 1 and 4

7 the same thing?

8 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:

9 (Inaudible).

10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Could 3 and

11 14 be combined?

12 MR. SANTANA: Well, how does 3 apply?

13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Well, what

14 do we mean by "alternative construction"?

15 MR. SANTANA: Right.

16 MS. STARKEY: Yeah.

17 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, it --

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Does anyone want to speak

19 to that?

20 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That was the

21 DOE's.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: That what was on the list
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1 and (inaudible).

2 MS. STARKEY: Was that like an

3 alternative performance path or --

4 MR. EZZO: Well, we --

5 MS. STARKEY: -- different kind of --

6 MR. EZZO: This is Mark. We need to be

7 careful because that's a term --

8 MS. STARKEY: Yeah.

9 MR. EZZO: -- that HUD uses as a type of

10 home that requires special permission.

11 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

12 MR. EZZO: So if we're talking about

13 doing something differently, let's use a different

14 term.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yes, so agree on

16 what important words mean, right?

17 MR. EZZO: Yeah, yeah.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

19 MR. ROY: Yeah.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So how do we need

21 to change that?

22 MR. ROY: Well --
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1 MR. SANTANA: Well, what was --

2 MR. ROY: Yeah.

3 MR. SANTANA: -- it intended to be?

4 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, what's

5 the --

6 MR. ROY: Well, was it -- because it

7 could be what Manny was referring to previously

8 with prescriptive versus performance.

9 MR. HAGERMAN: Refer to compliance.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Is that what that is?

11 MR. ROY: Unh-huh (negatively).

12 MR. HAGERMAN: I think that was an

13 intent.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry?

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Compliance. That's what

16 it says when you get to the end.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: Compliance.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: Compliance.

19 MS. STARKEY: Yeah, like a different

20 performance path.

21 MR. HAGERMAN: The 2015 Code calls it

22 the HERS Path or --
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1 MS. STARKEY: Yeah.

2 MR. HAGERMAN: Eric Lacey --

3 MR. LACEY: Yeah, there you go.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: -- what's the 2015 refer

5 to as the HERS Pathway?

6 MR. LACEY: The ERI, yeah.

7 MR. HAGERMAN: The ERI Pathway? All

8 right. Thank you.

9 MR. LACEY: I mean, that's all under 14,

10 I think.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Right.

12 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

13 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: So you can move --

15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, sure.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: -- that 3 to 14.

17 MR. UNGAR: Can I (inaudible)

18 environmental externalities under 11, which is

19 what Lois said? At least you're trying to

20 (inaudible), Lois, except I wasn't sure if that's

21 really what Lois meant.

22 MS. STARKEY: Yeah, I'm not sure what
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1 "environmental externalities" are. I would like

2 an explanation of that.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Who put that -- who --

4 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Mike

5 Lubliner.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Mike is on the phone.

7 MS. MARCHETTI: Shall I just un-mute

8 him?

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, un-mute him, yeah.

10 MS. MARCHETTI: Okay.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Have your --

12 MS. MARCHETTI: Michael?

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Is 3 in 1 or --

14 MR. HAGERMAN: Michael, can you hear us.

15 You're un-muted.

16 MR. LUBLINER: Thank you very much.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: So --

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael, we can hear you

20 now.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: There's a question on what
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1 is -- what do you mean by "environmental

2 externalities"?

3 MR. LUBLINER: Climate change. I

4 believe it's part of the DOE analysis, the impact

5 it's going to emit. Greenhouse gas savings

6 (inaudible). So I don't believe it goes in

7 (inaudible).

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Can I --

9 MR. LUBLINER: I do believe that

10 labeling is a HERS labeling (inaudible) clearly

11 with performance (inaudible) performance testing

12 or performance compliance.

13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: So that was

14 a separate comment.

15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I think that

16 went under 5.

17 MR. LUBLINER: Yeah, it's a separate

18 comment.

19 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: 1 was under

20 5, should go under 13 the labeling?

21 MR. LUBLINER: Yeah. And labeling and

22 performance are together.
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1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Are 5.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Not that one.

3 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That one's -

4 - or 8, Number 8.

5 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No, that was

6 not with Number 8.

7 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It was under

8 water heater.

9 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Number 9,

10 what's Number 9 now?

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Energy labeling

12 goes under here?

13 MS. STARKEY: Yeah.

14 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

15 MR. UNGAR: Well, it depends what the --

16 I don't know what the person who said "labeling"

17 meant because that -- it may --

18 MR. LUBLINER: That's (inaudible)

19 labeling.

20 MR. UNGAR: -- actually be referring to

21 HERS labeling, but there's different kinds of

22 labeling so I don't --
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1 MR. LUBLINER: Yeah, I was thinking in

2 terms --

3 MR. UNGAR: -- it may or may not go

4 under there, depending what the -- was meant

5 there.

6 MR. LEVY: I think it means as an --

7 MR. LUBLINER: Hello?

8 MR. LEVY: -- an expression of

9 performance compliance.

10 MR. LUBLINER: It's (inaudible).

11 MR. UNGAR: Right, but I'm saying I

12 don't --

13 MR. LEVY: Right.

14 MR. UNGAR: -- and the person who

15 suggested labeling may have meant something other

16 else by "labeling." I don't know what was

17 intended so I can't --

18 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And, Mike,

19 do you --

20 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Mike?

21 MR. LUBLINER: They suggested labeling.

22 MR. UNGAR: So you did mean HERS
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1 labeling.

2 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, Ishbel Dickens.

3 MR. UNGAR: Okay.

4 MR. LUBLINER: I could be a different

5 type of labeling. It's something to inform the

6 super what the energy (inaudible) of the home will

7 be and that's typically HERS (inaudible) on it.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: So then we're okay with

9 where we dropped it?

10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yes.

11 MR. LUBLINER: Yeah. I had a couple --

12 MR. UNGAR: That's one of the

13 environmental externalities. So broadly

14 essentially, is environmental effects which are

15 not incorporated into the price, but then can be

16 incorporated in an analysis, so it fit better. If

17 anything, it's related to some of the items which

18 we now put under affordability in terms of cost

19 effectiveness.

20 MR. LUBLINER: That's fine.

21 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:

22 (Inaudible).
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1 MR. LUBLINER: I had one other comment.

2 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I was

3 going to (inaudible).

4 MR. LUBLINER: The question about

5 (inaudible), there's a -- actually, I have a

6 couple. I wrote them out. My (inaudible) I'm

7 getting are echoing.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Can you hear me? I think

9 I have them. Water resistive barriers?

10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, I'll -

11 -

12 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, that (inaudible)

13 indoor air quality.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: That's on window air

15 quality?

16 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Indoor air

17 quality.

18 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Indoor

19 air.

20 MR. LUBLINER: And that also includes

21 whiplashing.

22 (Voices off record.)
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1 MR. LUBLINER: (Inaudible) the process

2 of (inaudible) and (inaudible) the home is part of

3 the (inaudible) or is it just the purchase

4 (inaudible)?

5 MS. HOFFMAN: You're breaking up a

6 little bit.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: A lot a bit.

8 MR. LUTER: I think that should be

9 weather resistive barrier --

10 MR. RAMIREZ: You're Mike's guy.

11 MR. LUTER: -- not water.

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Weather. Weather?

13 MR. RAMIREZ: He -- the water is on

14 here, but it's --

15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Ask Michael

16 because he did say, "Water," and --

17 MR. LUBLINER: It's water resistive

18 barrier, I believe, in the (inaudible) proposal.

19 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: So

20 (inaudible).

21 MR. RAMIREZ: And we'll put these under

22 -- we'll see where they go. I'm just going to get
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1 them up here.

2 MR. LUBLINER: Thank you.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

4 MR. LUBLINER: I had one question, if we

5 can do it, the technical discretion, it had to do

6 with (inaudible) about testing onsite. I think

7 it's an important one.

8 The question (inaudible) there are

9 certain things that can be tested in a factory,

10 other things that can be tested onsite and

11 (inaudible) about (inaudible) tested on

12 (inaudible) because they needed erect

13 homes. But my question was: it -- can we be able

14 to test singlewide homes at the factory where

15 (inaudible) stop leakage in a random sampling

16 process?

17 MR. RAMIREZ: I hope you guys understood

18 that.

19 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yes, I did.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Could you

21 translate?

22 MR. LUBLINER: Yeah, (inaudible).
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: No, no, I'm sorry. Luby

2 (ph), is it Luby on the line?

3 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yes,

4 (inaudible).

5 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I am.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, it's a little broken

7 up so that's what I meant by "translating," and

8 Michael or Manuel Levy is going to give a shot

9 where -- to see if he could capture that for all

10 of us.

11 MR. LUBLINER: Okay.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: So go ahead.

13 MR. LUBLINER: Excellent.

14 MR. LEVY: I think, Mike -- and you'll

15 correct me, Mike, if I'm wrong.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

17 MR. LEVY: You're trying to make a

18 distinction between things that are easier to test

19 in the plant as opposed to the field. And in many

20 cases, for certain kinds of tests, a single21 section home, since it's completed as a box in the

22 plants, easier to test in the plant.
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1 MR. LUBLINER: Yeah, that's exactly it,

2 Emanuel. I believe that we can learn a lot just

3 from testing the single-section homes in the

4 factory that will help with the (inaudible)

5 process but will end up helping the double-section

6 homes which -- except for the things that are done

7 onsite like marriage line sealing.

8 So I'm thinking that, you know, when we

9 talk about the setup of the home and what's in the

10 Installation Manual in terms of testing -- and one

11 of the things that we can test in the factory

12 versus onsite, I think that there's room for

13 discussion in that subject area and maybe we could

14 call it "performance testing at -- onsite and in

15 the factory" and work through that. So we're not

16 requiring that all the homes are getting tested,

17 but we've got a good process that everybody's

18 comfortable with and it's happening where it's the

19 most cost-effective.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

21 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss. I'm sorry, this

22 -- but isn't that an enforcement type issue
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1 related to this distinction that's been drawn?

2 MR. RAMIREZ: You know, at this point, I

3 would say let's throw it up there because then

4 when we get to the prioritizing, then that's where

5 stuff may fall off, okay?

6 MS. HOFFMAN: A couple of -- Peter

7 Schneider has said, "I couldn't --

8 MR. LUBLINER: Thank you.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you, Michael,

10 (inaudible).

11 THE ELECTRONIC RECORDING OFFICER: Push

12 the mic please.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Peter Schneider --

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Your mic's not on.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Peter Schneider has said,

16 "Acoustics, loud furnaces in living spaces are a

17 burden to homeowners," yeah.

18 What does that mean?

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Can I see it?

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Acoustics, I guess. Yeah,

21 that's okay. And Luby has said, "Need to discuss

22 it affordability includes operation and
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1 maintenance costs or just the purchase price?"

2 Yeah, interesting. So that would be under --

3 MR. RAMIREZ: What's that?

4 MS. HOFFMAN: -- affordability. Number

5 7.

6 Affordability, "does it include

7 operation and maintenance costs or just the

8 purchase price?"

9 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner

10 again. On the panel, been some fundamental

11 discussions about what "affordability" actually

12 means and I think it's going to be important to

13 flesh that out in this Group.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry, what was that?

15 MR. LUBLINER: There's been a lot of

16 discussions about the definition of

17 "affordability."

18 Does it just include the purchase price

19 of the home or does it include the operation and

20 maintenance costs over the life of the home? And

21 I think it's going to be important that we discuss

22 that because I think people have different value
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1 systems and different definitions of what

2 "affordability" is.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So that's on 7.6,

4 Operation and Maintenance for Purchase.

5 MR. LUBLINER: Yeah.

6 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss, MHARR. You

7 know, certainly we can discuss that, but this

8 comes up all the time and to someone who cannot

9 afford the original purchase price, there is no

10 lifecycle cost or saving.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Right. And at this --

12 MR. LUBLINER: Yeah, somebody that --

13 MR. RAMIREZ: -- point, I would say

14 we're not --

15 MR. LUBLINER: -- defaults on their loan

16 is the issue.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. And at this point,

18 we're not going to sit and debate that one.

19 MR. LUBLINER: That's a --

20 MR. RAMIREZ: We're not going to answer

21 that one now. We want to just --

22 MR. LUBLINER: Thank you.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: -- broadly put stuff out

2 there at this moment.

3 MR. SANTANA: Three could probably go

4 into 1 --

5 MR. RAMIREZ: The same general --

6 MR. WEISS: -- (inaudible) category.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: You said 3 could go

8 through 1?

9 MR. WEISS: Into 1, yeah.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: I just want to hear the

12 subsets on that.

13 Any other broad topics?

14 MS. STARKEY: I assume when we mean

15 "acoustics," we're talking about the heating and

16 cooling equipment or are we talking about, you

17 know --

18 MR. RAMIREZ: That was my --

19 MS. STARKEY: -- other kinds of

20 acoustics?

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. Well, on the note

22 here, it says, "Acoustics, loud furnaces in living
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1 spaces are a burden to homeowners." Okay.

2 MR. LEVY: Just a clean-up question, 14

3 has indoor air quality and you have that under 5.

4 Durability and moisture, I -- you could

5 probably keep those together, but the indoor air

6 quality I just -- probably just strike it from 14

7 and you're fine.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh, I see.

9 Strike or just go ahead and delete it?

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Strike "durability" no?

11 MR. LEVY: And actually, weather

12 resistive barriers probably go under durability.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Where is -- what number.

14 MR. LEVY: It's going to come out of

15 here.

16 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: What number is that?

18 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It's 551.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: So weather resistive

20 barriers, they go under where?

21 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Durability.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Durability.
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1 (Voices off Record.)

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Is that -- does that one

3 go there as well? Does 13 --

4 MR. LEVY: Yeah.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: -- go there?

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, and Number 3,

7 "thermal" has got an A at the end, T-H-E-R-M-A-L.

8 So are there any other major issues we

9 should make sure you get up there?

10 MR. UNGAR: Okay. So under thermal

11 requirements, insulation, insulation grading, this

12 needs to improve as related to value, is never

13 achieved due to poor insulation and air leakage.

14 Just want to know if there are more requirements.

15 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Who is

16 that?

17 MR. UNGAR: In here.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: I think -- is that Luby?

19 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Peter.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Peter Schneider.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, Peter Schneider.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: Efficiency (inaudible).

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Insulation, insulation.

3 (Pause.)

4 MR. UNGAR: We're still grouping. It's

5 on appreciation versus depreciation. It's --

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Under financing?

7 MR. UNGAR: -- affordability.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Affordability? Yeah,

9 (inaudible).

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Where's affordability,

11 what number?

12 MR. UNGAR: Six. And for (inaudible),

13 it's Number 12 of the (inaudible) implementation

14 for that one.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Eleven.

16 MR. SANTANA: You had 12 under 11.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: The 12 can go under 11?

18 MR. SANTANA: No. Now, the new 12 can

19 go under 8. I think the same group.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

21 MR. SANTANA: Now, how does consumer

22 awareness and education support apply to an energy
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1 standard, I mean, as part of the energy standard?

2 I didn't know it's important to have consumer

3 awareness, but how does it apply as a part of the

4 energy standard?

5 MR. RAMIREZ: And let me --

6 MS. EPPERSON: May I --

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me pause before you

8 answer that. At this point, I don't want you to

9 answer that, all right? We will. I want to just

10 get everything out there and then when we're

11 prioritizing and if we need to talk about it to

12 see what's relevant at that time, you know, I say

13 have at it, right?

14 MS. EPPERSON: Yeah.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: So for now, I just want to

16 just get the stuff up there.

17 MS. EPPERSON: I would say though --

18 Stacey, from NextStep -- that consumer awareness

19 and education support, in my view, could come

20 under affordability.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

22 MS. EPPERSON: It's -- because it's a
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1 way of getting that lifecycle cost.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So --

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Done. Okay.

4 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey, NEMA. And I'm

5 still a little confused about 8.5 and if that's

6 acoustics relative to the HVAC equipment, then why

7 not put it under 4 as opposed to durability?

8 MS. EPPERSON: Yeah.

9 MR. CASKEY: It's an issue with the

10 equipment.

11 MS. EPPERSON: That would be my --

12 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

13 MS. EPPERSON: That's my -- that's a

14 good point.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: And we can't, right?

16 (Laughter.)

17 MR. RAMIREZ: So you guys are seeing how

18 this works, right? It's easy -- we'll move stuff,

19 "How does it look?" "No, it doesn't look good."

20 We'll move it back so --

21 MR. SANTANA: Two can probably go under

22 7.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: And as we break these off

2 because it's hard to deal with them, we'll make

3 them their own maps, right, so we don't have to

4 have everything crowded up.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Is there anything else

6 under indoor air quality or is that a category

7 unto itself?

8 MR. LEVY: Well, missing from the list

9 is ventilation, which is a different issue but

10 it's related, so that has to go someplace.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Does it --

12 MR. LEVY: And whole-house tightness.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: So where would you put it,

14 as another number, as a separate number or under

15 one of these?

16 (Voices off record.)

17 MS. HOFFMAN: That just --

18 MR. RAMIREZ: And then ventilation.

19 Is ventilation separate or is that the

20 whole-house tightness?

21 MR. LEVY: You could make the argument

22 that indoor air quality and ventilation are
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1 somewhat related. You could put --

2 MS. HOFFMAN: We'll put the --

3 MR. LEVY: -- put them together.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: -- ventilation under 4.

5 MR. LUTER: And I might suggest that the

6 acoustics gets wrapped up under ventilation. If I

7 interpret the comment accurately, fans that are

8 allowed don't get operated.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: That's what I've heard.

10 MR. LUTER: Whole-house fans.

11 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible)

12 whole house.

13 MR. LUTER: Well, I'm talking about

14 whole-house fans.

15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

16 MR. LUTER: I mean, that's where the

17 sound level is kind of important.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

19 MR. LUTER: I can't remember if it was

20 Mike or the other gentleman who made that comment,

21 but maybe we should get verification that it

22 (inaudible).
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: I just put them under

2 both.

3 MR. LUTER: Okay.

4 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (inaudible).

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

6 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible).

7 MR. RAMIREZ: I left it under HVAC, and

8 I put it under indoor quality. I'll tell you

9 what, I'm try impressed we got such a -- you know,

10 we got some pretty good groupings already in a

11 short period of time. Doesn't necessarily mean

12 that we're done, but it's a pretty good starting

13 point.

14 I don't really see any other ones that

15 are out of a group, so unless you all want to

16 still add some additional broad topics today, are

17 you guys good with this as a starting point?

18 MS. HOFFMAN: And --

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, let's see.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. And also, the kind

21 of data you'd need, research data, whatever for

22 these.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yeah, so that's

2 probably -- maybe that's some additional homework,

3 right, looking at these because we'll email them,

4 so you'll get these probably in the next -- you

5 know, once we're done, you'll get them within 15

6 minutes of when we're done, right?

7 Do you want to look at this and start

8 identifying, at least in your head, what -- you

9 know, what are we going to need as far as

10 information, and we could start doing that.

11 MR. LUTER: Just a comment on that with

12 respect to what data we're going to need. Slide

13 26 basically spells out in broad strokes what

14 we're after here. We're going to take the 2015

15 IECC and we're going to defend it or condemn

16 elements of it as "not appropriate" for

17 manufactured housing, based on rationale that

18 we'll put forth from our respective areas of

19 expertise. Yeah, 26, right. So the -- if I'm

20 interpreting your remark properly, we need to

21 decide what kind of data we need to defend in the

22 case of .1 that the three-zone HUD climate zone is
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1 better than the eight-zone IECC.

2 What is DOE looking at, what are you

3 looking for from us to defend that?

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

5 Yeah. And I don't know if it necessarily defend,

6 right --

7 MR. LUTER: Yeah.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: -- but to have the

9 discussion to make sure that we're all in

10 agreement --

11 MR. LUTER: Okay.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: -- on which one we are

13 using.

14 MR. LUTER: Okay.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: And so what information

16 are you saying that you're going to need in order

17 to discuss that?

18 MR. LUTER: Well, that --

19 MS. HOFFMAN: He says he has it, right?

20 He says he has it.

21 MR. HAGERMAN: And I'm not sure we need

22 information on all the terms on the term sheet
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1 that you present to us.

2 MR. LUTER: Okay.

3 MR. HAGERMAN: We just need the

4 consensus for this Group that that's the

5 recommendation to ASRAC, right?

6 MS. STARKEY: Well, for example, I think

7 if we had in front of us -- and I'm sure we will -

8 - the IECC zones and the current HUD zones --

9 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay.

10 MS. STARKEY: -- that would be a good --

11 might be a good place to start.

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.

13 MS. STARKEY: And -- yeah.

14 MR. LUTER: And (inaudible) IECC

15 available to just put up on the screen

16 (inaudible).

17 MS. STARKEY: Yeah, correct.

18 MR. SANTANA: But you know what that

19 does? That gives us, one, the baseline and, two,

20 where we're going at. You know, so we all know

21 what the HUD zones are and what the IECC zones

22 are, right? But going forward with the
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1 discussion, you know, it would be helpful to have

2 that for all those cases. You know, what does the

3 HUD Code say about U-values, what does IECC have

4 to say about U-values, and what's the difference?

5 What does it say about air infiltration

6 back and forth. You know, so that's a -- to a

7 previous point about having an established

8 baseline.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Can we have that for

10 tomorrow?

11 (Laughter.)

12 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: What? We

13 can do it between now and 5:00 o'clock tomorrow.

14 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Shut up.

15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible).

16 MR. RAMIREZ: That's --

17 MR. HAGERMAN: Do you actually want an

18 answer to that?

19 MR. RAMIREZ: That's an example of the -

20 -

21 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Better

22 not.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: I think I heard the whip

2 crack.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, Eric?

4 MR. LACEY: I'm Eric Lacey. Just a

5 little bit of information. You know, a question

6 was raised earlier about the 2012 IECC versus the

7 2015.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

9 MR. LACEY: IECC has just published a

10 redline version of the 2012 IECC that shows

11 exactly what changes. And I have a copy. I,

12 unfortunately, left it on my -- at home, but I'll

13 bring it tomorrow.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, great.

15 MR. LACEY: And you can download a PDF

16 of that from the IECC website. In case we're

17 using 2012 materials and you're interested, I'll

18 bring my copy tomorrow, but you can also download

19 a PDF, you know --

20 MR. LUTER: Does that only include those

21 elements that changed?

22 MR. LACEY: Yeah, it's the 2012 IECC
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1 just with redlines. And it includes the

2 residential and commercial but, you know, for our

3 purposes, the residential is key. So I'll bring a

4 copy tomorrow.

5 MR. LUTER: (Inaudible), if the section

6 of the 2012 didn't change, is it even relevant?

7 MR. LACEY: It's there. Yeah, it's all

8 there, yeah.

9 MR. LUTER: Great.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Great.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah. And also, just in

12 addition, that the PNNL analysis will include all

13 this and they also will include a discussion of,

14 you know, why they didn't consider one or not as I

15 relates to manufactured housing, like I brought up

16 sunrooms before and -- as an example.

17 So we also talked in the hallway about

18 how we quickly release the previous results or

19 previous analysis and I don't think it's going to

20 be possible for us to give that to you like

21 tomorrow just in the terms of getting the

22 spreadsheets to DOE and then letting General
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1 Counsel quickly review them just to make sure

2 there's not anything in it and then send to

3 everybody.

4 I don't see that happening between now

5 and, you know, tomorrow afternoon, unfortunately

6 so -- but we're going to -- we've sent the actions

7 to everybody, they can start that so, you know,

8 hopefully we can get it. There's no promises but

9 we're working hard to get you as much stuff as

10 quickly as possible because, you know, we value

11 everybody's time and input so.

12 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Do you

13 think (inaudible) online update (inaudible)?

14 (Laughter.)

15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Because I

16 thought they did.

17 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: IBTS has

18 one, too, but I didn't bring the right one, but I

19 (inaudible).

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Is there anything

21 further before we go to public comment?

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: We're a little early. I

2 don't -- is there any objection to getting public

3 comment and calling it a day?

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

5 MR. LUTER: Do we have any element --

6 I'm sorry, Rob, with Lippert. Do we have any

7 elements of this that we can offer further

8 discussion on to maximize our use of time today?

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Is there?

10 MR. LUTER: Is there anything we need to

11 wait for, a DOE analysis or anything on, is there

12 anything that can be meaningfully discussed? Out

13 to my fellow participants.

14 MR. SANTANA: Well, is the next step to

15 try to whittle some of that stuff out or just to

16 start with Number 1 or to organize it, you put it

17 order and then we see if we want to start here,

18 and then go from there; what's the next step?

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, I think we were

20 trying to prioritize them but we also need to

21 identify what information is needed on each of

22 them, right? But, yeah, we were trying to
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1 prioritize them. If guys want to try to

2 prioritize at least a broad category, at least

3 initially, we could try to do that.

4 So -- and when I say, "Prioritize," one

5 thing I'd caution you on: it doesn't work when

6 folks say, "Can't we deal with this because this

7 is the hardest issue? If we get this thing done,

8 then everything else will be easy." I would

9 suggest let's get used to working with each other,

10 right? Let's pick some low-hanging fruit, items

11 that you think that we could easily reach

12 agreement on, let's put those up towards the front

13 and then the harder issues towards the back, at

14 least what you initially think would be the harder

15 issues, and we could move around if we need be.

16 But kind of keeping that in mind, what

17 would be the first issue that we would talk about?

18 MR. SANTANA: I like the zone issue. You

19 know, it gives you an idea of scope and then it

20 can help to flesh out some of the constraints that

21 we have as an industry, you know, and it can help

22 to, I guess, set the tone for some of the other
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1 items.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: You know, and that's the

3 other piece. We need to put something ahead of

4 it. If we need an answer on this piece before we

5 move to the next one, those are things to consider

6 as well. So more of like a temperature check

7 because we can move these around.

8 Let me see a show of thumbs if

9 everyone's okay with putting that issue that is at

10 Number 1, keeping it at Number 1, let me see a

11 show of thumbs.

12 (Call for show of thumbs.)

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, great.

14 What would we put as Number 2 then?

15 Yeah?

16 MR. UNGAR: Lowell Ungar. I don't know

17 if all of it, but I think along with zone, there's

18 another kind of struck question of how you

19 structure the standard as opposed to the content,

20 and the number is 9 and at least parts of 9 in

21 terms of what's the -- what are the metrics or the

22 way you structure the standard might be early
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1 discussion that would help for the rest.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yeah, Mark, and --

3 MR. WEISS: I'm just going to raise this

4 as an issue: I -- just sitting here right now, I

5 don't know the answer to it, but the areas of

6 overlap that you have with the statute that HUD is

7 operating under are the issues of affordability,

8 cost-effectiveness and justification.

9 And particularly with respect to

10 affordability, I think that that kind of should

11 color the discussion on all these issues so even

12 though that's a more-difficult issue, based on

13 what Mike was saying, it's not difficult from our

14 perspective, but I think you have to have some

15 discussion of that, I think, leading into anything

16 --

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

18 MR. UNGAR: -- anymore specific issue.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: What do you all think of

20 that?

21 I'm sorry, you had your hand up?

22 MR. LEVY: Yes. Actually, I thought
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1 Lowell's point about that's a high-level issue.

2 That's probably even above the zones, I mean, in

3 terms of overall thinking about what the structure

4 of the standard looks like.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

6 MR. LEVY: So I would make a case for

7 moving 2 up to 1. And maybe interjecting the idea

8 of affordability also being talked about as a

9 high-level issue.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Not -- now again, the idea

11 of trying to deal with some of the low-hanging

12 fruit first, let me put them up here and see what

13 it looks like so we can move them back later if we

14 need to.

15 Is that what you all are talking about

16 right there?

17 MR. LEVY: Switching 2 and 3.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

19 MS. DICKENS: This is Ishbel.

20 Philosophically I agree with that ordering, but

21 (inaudible) speaking in the interest of negotiated

22 rulemaking, I think climate zones would be a good
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1 practice run for all of us before we get into some

2 of the more delicate issues.

3 (Laughter.)

4 MR. RAMIREZ: As a facilitator, yeah, I

5 agree.

6 MS. DICKENS: Yeah.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: You guys will get used to

8 not only the process but each other as well. I

9 think that jumping into something that's going to

10 be difficult at first -- we increase our odds of

11 success if we get used to each other first.

12 MS. STARKEY: Yeah, I think we need to -

13 - this is Lois Starkey. We need to have a more of

14 a discussion about what we kind of -- where we all

15 are on the overall framework of the standard. I

16 think all of us are pretty familiar with the

17 current HUD Code and, if you're not, I can

18 certainly make the statute available so you kind

19 of know where we are today and where, you know, we

20 know that we're probably going to have lots of

21 discussions about. But unless you really have

22 some good, you know, foundation for what's in the
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1 -- what we're talking about in the standard, I

2 think the whole affordability question is --

3 doesn't work. So I see it down lower on the list

4 than even three.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: The -- what's currently

6 Number 3 you think would actually be lower?

7 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's

8 right, she --

9 MS. STARKEY: Or, I mean -- well, below

10 at least three or four. I mean, you know, I think

11 it's going to come up as we talk about these other

12 issues anyways, but it's substantively --

13 MR. RAMIREZ: That's what you're talking

14 about.

15 MS. STARKEY: Yeah.

16 MR. SANTANA: Yeah, we can't start with

17 that because --

18 MS. STARKEY: Yeah.

19 MR. SANTANA: -- everything else is

20 going to talk about affordability, what it is. We

21 can't start with the other ones. They're going to

22 -- you know, they're going to talk about -- they
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1 talk about (inaudible).

2 MR. RAMIREZ: So they'll have impact on

3 that.

4 MS. STARKEY: Yeah.

5 MR. SANTANA: They're going to

6 (inaudible).

7 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Okay.

8 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: And move 2

9 to 1 though (inaudible) as 1?

10 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So let me ask

11 the Group: how is that looking, 1, 2, 3 and 4?

12 Yeah?

13 MR. SANTANA: You know, I think the

14 importance of 2 wasn't so much -- you know, 2.1,

15 2.2 and 2.3, those are a little bit specific. I

16 think it was more just understanding that the way

17 the HUD Code is written and structured, it's a

18 performance code rather than a prescriptive code

19 meaning that, you know, they say, "You need to

20 have X amount of tightness. You need to have X

21 amount of leakage. You need to account for air

22 infiltration," but it doesn't tell you how.
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1 So that's left up to the manufacturer to

2 determine and demonstrate. So that's what -- what

3 that means as far as, you know -- so for this to

4 work, I think it has to maintain the same -- it's

5 got to say the same thing. It has to be more of a

6 performance-based code telling you what the goals

7 are instead of telling you what you have to do to

8 get to those goals.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: So are you saying that

10 that's a good -- that Number 2 is in a good place

11 right now?

12 MR. SANTANA: I think that what's in

13 parenthesis is in a good place "just understand,"

14 but all the other stuff is too specific to be up

15 so high, I think.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yeah.

17 MR. WEISS: Just to be clear, I agree

18 with Manny as far as the importance of a

19 performance versus prescriptive and just so the

20 record's clear, you know, in my view, given the

21 overlap with the HUD statute, I think the issue of

22 affordability relates to every one of these other
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1 issues; therefore, I would actually put it first.

2 That's --

3 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:

4 Affordability?

5 MR. WEISS: Affordability.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, but I guess my

7 question is: the complexity and difficulty of

8 getting agreement on that.

9 MR. WEISS: I understand what you're

10 saying.

11 MR. LUTER: I mean, affordability --

12 Rob, with Lippert. Affordability could really be

13 wrapped up under each one of these. It's a lens

14 through which we will look at all these issues.

15 MR. LEVY: I actually think there's two

16 issues of affordability. One is kind of well, the

17 overarching issues in which I think everybody's

18 going to have to have the opportunity to talk

19 about what they think should be the frame for this

20 whole discussion.

21 What are we talking about when we're

22 talking about "affordability?" We'll drill down
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1 later to the assumptions we make that to drive all

2 the other factors there, all the thermal

3 requirements, that will happen, I think, later.

4 But there -- it wouldn't be bad to have an opening

5 discussion about who it is that we're aiming this

6 towards and what -- how does affordability play

7 into it, even if it's a very general discussion

8 just to start off.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: So you're just saying just

10 get the broad context, just have that discussion

11 before we start to problem-solve?

12 MR. LEVY: I'm sure Mark and others will

13 want -- and Stacey will want to talk about

14 affordability and what the standard means in terms

15 of affordability, and that'll be kind of a -- and

16 whatever we come to as a group, that'll kind of be

17 a frame for how we look at everything else.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, so let me ask you

19 all because that -- is that a conversation we

20 could have in 20 minutes? I don't know. If it

21 is, let's have it. If we need more time, then I

22 suggest that we start that tomorrow.
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: We will, yeah.

2 MR. WEISS: I think the suggestion is a

3 valuable one. I don't think we can do it in 20

4 minutes, frankly.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. No problem.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: And, Robin, yeah.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, we could start that

8 off tomorrow.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: You had a comment?

10 MR. ROY: Robin Roy. Do we have a clear

11 definition of "the objective" and "the metrics" by

12 which we assess the obtainment of that objective?

13 Where's that fit? Because affordability

14 clearly is one of the things we're very much

15 interested in.

16 How does that relate to the other

17 objectives of this standard? Maybe worth thinking

18 about, what we're really, really aiming to do.

19 MR. HAGERMAN: I mean, I -- this is Joe

20 Hagerman, with DOE. I sort of agree with you. I

21 mean, you know, I'm an engineer so I'm looking at

22 this problem as -- through the lens of an
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1 engineer, right? I'm a -- you know, have a hammer

2 and everything looks like a nail.

3 You know, what I think we're trying to

4 do, the scope of what we're trying to do for ASRAC

5 is to give them a term sheet on how we get

6 manufactured housing to meet the 2015 IECC on a

7 technical basis, right? And if you can't

8 technically get there because -- you know, David

9 Tompos said something earlier, if singlewide had

10 to go with 2x6s, then the shipping rates would

11 have to increase. That's the type of stuff that

12 we need to know about, right? I don't think it's

13 really within the scope that we start discussing

14 who might buy these objects so.

15 MR. ROY: The objective is -- well, it's

16 already 2015. 2015 is the start of IECC. It's a

17 starting point from which we go up or down based -

18 -

19 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.

20 MR. ROY: -- on cost effectiveness and

21 considerations of affordability and the role of

22 manufactured housing in the nation's affordability
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1 housing mix particularly for low and middle income

2 folks, and the environmental impacts that are

3 associated with the -- it's cost effectiveness of

4 energy savings with a bunch of conditions you also

5 have to meet or other considerations you have to

6 give, right? Also impact on manufacturers. It's

7 all obvious to me what it really is (inaudible).

8 They were trying to optimize.

9 MS. DICKENS: Yeah, I think it's just a

10 little bit different animal from residential

11 housing and there's energy standards for that.

12 With manufactured housing being the most

13 affordable form of housing for low and moderate

14 income people, I think the analysis has to include

15 affordability for the consumer. Everyone deserves

16 a roof over their heads. Manufactured housing is

17 one of the options on the continuum from

18 homelessness to full homeownership and I think

19 that has to be part of the lens through which we

20 see this.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. Manny?

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Manny?
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1 MR. SANTANA: You know, I think they

2 both bring up great points, you know. Is the

3 point -- if the point of this Group is to have HUD

4 units or HUD homes comply with the 2015 IECC,

5 that's easy. We just say, "Okay. From now on,

6 HUD homes are to comply with the 2015 IECC." But

7 that isn't the point, right?

8 The point is: do -- how do we make --

9 you know, the goal, I think, should be to make

10 manufactured housing more energy, you know,

11 efficient while still getting a bang for your

12 buck, you know.

13 How -- what can you do to improve it

14 that's going to have a significant impact, you

15 know? Because we don't want to make a lot of

16 changes that are going to make the house a little

17 bit more energy efficient but may make the house

18 unaffordable for the groups that need to buy it.

19 MR. ROY: It's interesting with the

20 appliance and equipment standards process, it's

21 reasonably well-defined what the Secretary's

22 supposed to look at is: a set of seven conditions.
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1 And it's "The maximum energy savings that are

2 economically justified and technologically

3 feasible subject to" -- and it goes on for a

4 reasonable list. It's not a bad list.

5 And one thing you might throw into it is

6 that it seems different in the world of

7 manufactured housing is affordability, so it might

8 actually be worth going back to look at what the

9 objectives are for the appliance and equipment

10 standards and just throwing them up and seeing how

11 you might modify those, because that gives a

12 pretty reasonable definition of what we're aiming

13 for, I suspect, with a couple of qualifiers like

14 with respect to affordability for low and moderate

15 income and also as part of our national affordable

16 housing policy explicit or implicit, and I think

17 it's implicit. That might be useful to throw up

18 tomorrow.

19 Can you stick that up?

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. Stick what --

21 (inaudible) an issue?

22 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The
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1 definitions.

2 MR. ROY: The definitions in NAECA, the

3 National Appliance Energy Conservation Act, which

4 lays out what the Secretary is aiming for in

5 appliance.

6 MR. LEVY: I don't think we need to.

7 It's a point of determining (inaudible).

8 MR. ROY: Oh, sorry. Well, I was trying

9 to answer what it is.

10 MR. LEVY: Yeah.

11 MR. ROY: It's -- so it's -- okay.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh, okay. Is that one of

13 the issues? Okay.

14 MR. ROY: I mean, do you not think it

15 would --

16 MR. RAMIREZ: You want that as an agenda

17 item for us to discuss.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah, to look at.

19 MR. ROY: No.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Is that what you're asking

21 for?

22 MR. ROY: Just to throw out so --
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

2 MR. ROY: -- we can have something that

3 -- to see do we agree that that's what we're --

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

5 MR. ROY: -- aiming to achieve with the

6 standards we're hoping to get a term sheet for.

7 Otherwise, we're going to talk about a lot of

8 things and affordability will come up and

9 manufacture impacts will come up and some

10 environmental impacts will come up, but we don't

11 really have a -- we won't have a sense of what --

12 what's the objective of this -- of the standard

13 we're putting a term sheet together for?

14 MR. CASKEY: Well, if I can say it

15 another way, if I'm correct, Robin, really those

16 are the characters -- in order -- if you do come

17 up with a negotiated solution, that's solution

18 cannot go forward unless it meets those

19 requirements. Okay.

20 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Right. Okay.

21 MR. CASKEY: From everything else that

22 I've heard from you as well as Manny, I
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1 mean, I didn't walk into to this room with this

2 goal in mind, but from hearing everybody talk, it

3 sounds like what you're really trying to

4 accomplish is:

5 improve overall energy efficiency of

6 manufactured housing while maintaining its

7 affordability.

8 I mean, ultimately, at the end of the

9 day, you'll be successful if you can find a way to

10 get some, you know, quads of energy savings out of

11 the -- whatever your proposal is, but at the same

12 time maintaining affordability so that it can be -

13 - those housing units can be used for what they're

14 used today, you know, basically as affordable

15 housing.

16 I mean, is that -- did that make sense

17 to you? Okay.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: And in terms of the

19 standards, does someone have a copy we can put up

20 and look at for tomorrow?

21 MR. HAGERMAN: We'll get that.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. If you could say,
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1 "Yes"?

2 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, Navigant can give us

3 that.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: This is a (inaudible),

5 low-hanging fruit (inaudible). Okay. Ah, so --

6 MR. CASKEY: And Lowell's been raising

7 his hand for about 10 minutes.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, oh. Yeah.

9 MR. UNGAR: I just think -- you know, I

10 do think it would be illustrative to look at those

11 but I just want to note that this is not under the

12 --

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.

14 MR. UNGAR: -- the appliance standards

15 law. Unlike the appliance standards negotiations

16 under ASRAC where that has to meet those

17 requirements, those are -- would be only for

18 purposes of illustration. I do think pointing to

19 some of the -- Page 26 in the Statutory Authority,

20 in the end, DOE has to issue a rule under these --

21 this law.

22 And so I think in some sense, our job is
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1 to propose what the best possible way that DOE can

2 -- or what the best possible standard is that

3 meets the requirements that are here because this

4 is what they actually do have to follow in this

5 case. And so I'd -- it's not contradictory to

6 what John said in terms of energy efficiency and

7 affordability, but it's -- you know, it needs to

8 start from IECC and go -- changes need to be

9 justified based on cost effectiveness. And cost

10 effectiveness is based on the impact on the

11 purchase price and the total lifecycle

12 construction and operating costs. I mean, those

13 are all statutory requirements.

14 So if we change the definition of "cost

15 effectiveness," it's going to be very hard for DOE

16 to issue it as a rule.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: So you're trying to point

18 everybody back to Slide 26?

19 MR. UNGAR: Right. And it seems to me

20 as a real starting point that that is -- to me,

21 the key is to what the law requires and so we need

22 to kind of -- you know, certainly doesn't mean we
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1 have to agree. Had Congress wanted it to simply

2 meet IECC, Congress would have said, "Meet IECC."

3 They didn't. So presumably, they -- the intent is

4 that it'd be based on IECC, which is not the same

5 thing, but to go there and then try to see where

6 it makes sense because of the characteristics of

7 manufactured housing and because of the different

8 cost effectiveness --

9 MR. HAGERMAN: I agree with you on that.

10 MR. UNGAR: -- you know, and financing

11 and other things obviously change the specifics,

12 but that's where we need to start and how -- and

13 the kind of definition of "cost effectiveness" we

14 should use in order to be looking at what the

15 changes we need to make are.

16 MR. ROY: I sounds pretty reasonable to

17 me. The -- I guess a couple of questions are: is

18 this what the law specifically says? And if

19 that's actually the case, then I wonder how

20 affordability shows up in it really if it's just

21 on lifecycle cost effectiveness?

22 MR. WEISS: No, the law is very
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1 specific. If you just look -- take some of the

2 phrases in here, "cost effective based on the

3 impact of the Code on the purchase price of

4 manufactured housing and on total lifecycle

5 construction costs," so it includes both aspects

6 of it.

7 MR. LEVY: Yeah, Slide 26 is verbatim

8 from the statute.

9 MR. WEISS: Is the question of how you

10 interpret and trade off between lifecycle

11 construction, lifecycle costs and operating cost

12 and the purchase price.

13 MR. LEVY: Right, (inaudible).

14 MR. WEISS: So there's -- the tradeoff

15 will not (inaudible) energy --

16 MR. HAGERMAN: Put that to the frame of

17 affordability. This --

18 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible)

19 start.

20 MR. HAGERMAN: Right, this Group has

21 created a new word called "affordability."

22 MR. LEVY: Right, right, but I think
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1 it's one that is understandable by the American

2 public in a different way than some of these

3 things would be, so it may be helpful for us to

4 frame some of our thinking.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: The statute, however,

7 does not say it must address affordability, just

8 to be clear so.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: How

11 important is it for all of us in this conversation

12 (inaudible)?

13 MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So then

15 tomorrow, it sounds like the Group wants to start

16 off with some general conversation of

17 affordability, right, and at least make sure that

18 everyone's -- at least in the general ballpark

19 before we start tackling some of the issues.

20 MR. WEISS: Just sort of in a response

21 to what Joe just said -- and I just handed away my

22 copy of the IECC statute.
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1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It is

2 (inaudible).

3 MR. WEISS: Yeah, it is. And also,

4 importantly, from our perspective, the concept of

5 affordability is very well-established within the

6 manufactured housing law, the federal manufactured

7 housing law, and there is an interaction between

8 those two statutes that we need to be cognitive of

9 and concerned with.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. We have another

11 comment from Rick Hanger.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: It says, "Affordability of

13 manufactured housing needs to be based on purchase

14 price and long-term ownership costs. 'Cheap to

15 buy' does not mean cheap to operate.'" I think

16 that some --

17 MR. WEISS: Well --

18 MR. RAMIREZ: -- of that discussion that

19 we're talking about being on the record.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: We'll have tomorrow, I

21 think, or --

22 MR. WEISS: This goes back to the
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1 comment I made earlier that I'll tell you again. I

2 had talked about the flipside, I think, twice

3 already. This will be a third time. If you can't

4 afford to buy it, you can't afford -- you know,

5 it's not an issue with the long-term operating

6 cost then.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. Okay. It's been a

8 good, full day, a good, full discussion. And

9 where we are now is potential public comment. We

10 have some people behind us. They're welcome to

11 make any comments or questions. Just introduce

12 yourself and use the microphone. And thank you

13 for staying the whole day.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah.

15 MR. MENDLEN: Again, I'm Rick Mendlen,

16 with HUD. And, Mark, I really appreciate when

17 you're in a manufactured home consensus committee

18 meeting and you can't speak and I'm sitting back

19 here, I can't speak, so I now have some --

20 MR. WEISS: Tables are turned.

21 MR. MENDLEN: Tables are turned. But

22 the question I have is for Joe and any of the HUD
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1 -- DOE officials and that is: the

2 consultation that's envisioned by the statute,

3 when do you think that's going to occur, do you

4 think it's going to occur when the term sheet if

5 finished, when the proposed rule goes to OMB, when

6 the proposed rule is published and out for the

7 public to see? Have you guys given any

8 consideration to the -- when the actually formal

9 consultation will exist?

10 MR. HAGERMAN: So, I mean, Kavita's in

11 the General Counsel Office, but my understanding

12 is: our GC has been talking to your GC.

13 MR. MENDLEN: That's correct.

14 MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah, so.

15 MR. MENDLEN: I don't think we have any

16 -- we've not reached any agreement on that at all.

17 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: This is Kavita

18 Vaidyanathan. We -- of the General Counsel

19 Office. We are talking to General Counsel within

20 HUD and we haven't come to an agreement yet on

21 when the consultation or what the consultation

22 will look like, but hopefully we can come to an
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1 agreement and we can consult as required by the

2 statute.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Mark?

4 MR. WEISS: I'd just like to speak with

5 regard to what Rick just said. And we've taken a

6 position on this. I've said it many times. Our

7 view of this is that there needs to be meaningful

8 consultation with HUD. They have been the primary

9 -- not the primary, the only federal regulatory

10 entity for manufactured housing for many years, 30

11 -- 40?

12 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I believe --

13 MR. WEISS: Whatever, 76. Anyway --

14 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:

15 (Inaudible).

16 MR. WEISS: And that consultation needs

17 to be at a meaningful phase of these proceeding

18 not as after-the-fact or pro forma. It needs to

19 be at a meaningful stage of these proceedings so

20 that HUD can have proper input into the

21 formulation of any final rule.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Any other comments?
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1 Anyone from our members of the public?

2 (No audible response.)

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Anything from our folks by

4 telephone?

5 MR. HAGERMAN: We're checking right now.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmatively).

7 MR. HAGERMAN: We have one.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

9 (Voices off record.)

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Because we'll be emailing

11 that.

12 Are you emailing it or having them email

13 it to them?

14 MR. HAGERMAN: (Inaudible) just have one

15 comment.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: That's two (inaudible).

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Don Surrena. "Don

19 Surrena. What is the lifecycle costs of

20 manufactured housing?"

21 MS. EPPERSON: Is the question what it

22 consists of -- this is Stacey -- (inaudible) or
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1 what the actual expected costs clarification what

2 is?

3 MR. HAGERMAN: Why don't we put it in

4 the parking lot and come back to it.

5 MS. EPPERSON: Yeah.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

7 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: What it

8 means is probably an answer (inaudible).

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

10 MS. EPPERSON: Yeah.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

12 MS. EPPERSON: So --

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, go on then, Stacey,

14 you wanted to --

15 MS. EPPERSON: Just adding to it, it's

16 the cost to operate your home over, you know,

17 long-term, right? And so power is one element of

18 that. At NextStep, we also look at lifecycle

19 costs and in terms of some of the maintenance

20 costs that will be incurred to keep that home in

21 good shape.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you. So power and
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1 maintenance. And we'll deal with it tomorrow as

2 well.

3 Okay. Well --

4 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm going to un-mute for

5 Michael Lubliner as --

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Un-mute for Michael. Okay.

7 MR. LUBLINER: Hi. Am I -- I'm here?

8 So one thing that you might want to do

9 is: share the Give Accountability Reports, the one

10 on indoor air quality that was published last year

11 with the Committee. Make sure DOE's analysts have

12 reviewed it.

13 And then on Friday, Government

14 Accountability Office wrote a report about HUD's

15 manufactured housing program and identified a

16 number of key issues and recommendations and I

17 think it would be appropriate for the Committee

18 and the DOE staff to also review that.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So you're -- yeah,.

20 MR. LUBLINER: And I will encourage you

21 to engage the GAO directly and as appropriate.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So you're talking
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1 about last year's Report?

2 MS. DICKENS: Last Friday.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: And last Friday. Two

4 Reports though.

5 MS. DICKENS: The (inaudible) Report we

6 got last Friday.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: HUD's Manufactured Housing

8 Program.

9 MS. DICKENS: Ventilation report

10 (inaudible).

11 MS. HOFFMAN: And October of 2012 is the

12 Ventilation Report.

13 MS. DICKENS: Ventilation.

14 MR. LUBLINER: Indoor air quality, yes.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Well, thank you.

16 MR. LUBLINER: Thank you.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: And any other comments

18 before we formally adjourn from Joe or -- do you

19 want to --

20 MR. HAGERMAN: No, we just appreciate --

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

22 MR. HAGERMAN: -- everybody's time. You
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1 know, we're going to work hard to do some fast

2 turnaround for you. We're going to move forward

3 to try to get you this -- the materials that you

4 requested as soon as possible, but it's not

5 looking like it's going to be by tomorrow morning

6 or anything.

7 But we appreciate your time, your

8 interest and look forward to working with you and

9 look forward to this whole Group having really

10 important discussions and arriving at a consensus

11 recommendation and term sheet that they give to

12 ASRAC so.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. Well, I want to

14 thank you. We've done a lot today. We've got

15 consensus to find. We've got ground rules. It

16 was struggled, but we did. We've identified quite

17 a number of topics and issues and some priorities

18 and got a lot ahead of us, too. And we got to

19 know each other. A lot of your broke bread

20 together at the cafeteria and lived so -- and my

21 colleague, do you want to just close us out?

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, so far, I think
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1 we're off to a good start. So we'll see you

2 bright-eyed and bushytailed, right, 9:00 o'clock?

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Nine a.m. And we'll be

4 mailing you the Mind Map. And I'll be bothering

5 poor Joe for more data. Thank you.

6 (WHEREUPON, at 4:30 p.m., the Working

7 Group Meeting was adjourned.)

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
Capital Reporting Company 

Department of Energy Manufactured Housing Working Group 08-04-2014 

1 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC 

2 I, NATASHA THOMAS, the officer before whom the 

3 foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify 

4 that the witness whose testimony appears in the 

5 foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that 

6 the testimony of said witness was recorded by me 

7 and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my 

8 direction; that said deposition is a true record 

9 of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 

10 neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by 

11 any of the parties to the action in which this 

12 deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not 

13 a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney 

14 employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or 

15 otherwise interested in the outcome of this 

16 action. 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Notary 

~ Public in and for 

the District of Columbia 

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383 
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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 

3 

4 I, CORINNE YANOSY, hereby certify that I am not 

5 the Court Reporter who reported the following 

6 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of 

7 this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes 

8 and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript 

9 is a true, correct, and complete transcription of 

10 said proceeding. 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

(866) 448 - DEPO 

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 

384 
Capital R~porting Company 

Department of Energy Manufactured Housing Working Group 08-04-2014 

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER 

2 

3 

4 I, Linda A. Knox, do hereby certify that this 

5 transcript was prepared from audio to the best of 

6 my ability. I am neither counsel for, nor party to 

7 this action nor am I interested in the outcome of 

8 this action. 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

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1 193:14 303:4

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4 1:5 316:6 338:7

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4:30 12:7 382:6

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9 310:16 312:14,15

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anticipate 35:5

248:6 249:4

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118:20 148:15

165:14 204:16

212:14,17

217:11 285:18

anybody's 167:22

168:8

anymore 352:18

anyone 45:18 54:2

68:15 77:11

79:11 106:1

108:1 111:1

118:22 135:10

146:22 202:17

316:18 377:1

anything 8:6,18

10:8 55:22 58:9

59:10 64:12 90:8

102:5 106:2

108:3 115:17

119:20

124:15,16

125:18 141:14

144:1 148:1

157:7 160:6

175:1 181:8

184:6 193:19

220:22 236:22

244:8 252:9,18

282:21 295:14

324:17 339:5

348:2,20

349:10,11,12

352:15 377:3

381:6

Anything's 206:10

anyway 30:12

122:13

123:12,17

124:17 130:6

135:12 139:11

158:14 175:3

184:9 189:2

195:1 223:19

226:18 376:13

anyways 355:12

anywhere 41:14

177:5 303:12

APA 98:16 139:1

apart 49:13

188:20 307:20

apologies 63:2

apologize 309:1

appeals 199:13

appear 84:7

appearance 5:13

appears 232:8

383:4

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164:20

appliance 3:16

6:20 26:8 41:11

157:13 270:3

363:20 364:9

365:3,5

368:14,15

appliances 41:14

307:14

applicable 4:3,5

5:5 297:17

applicants 70:9

applications 33:19

applied 21:10 26:1

applies 94:16

217:17

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111:8 217:18

251:12 316:12

336:22 337:3

appointed 67:4,9

appreciate 103:16

231:8 374:16

380:20 381:7

appreciation

336:5

appreciative 12:10

approach 103:21

217:15 304:13

approaches 215:8

appropriate 72:21

81:4,10 85:10

131:3 162:7

174:11 259:16

342:16

379:17,21

appropriately

137:3

approval 72:16

77:12 136:21

171:9,16 233:10

approve 139:8

166:22 171:20

approved 136:14

235:7,14 243:12

area 19:19 21:2

70:20 329:13

areas 95:16 306:1

342:18 352:5

aren't 38:15 111:5

145:13,14 150:6

183:21 222:21

296:4

argue 212:11

216:13 218:5

argued 157:19

arguing 49:20

103:18 216:21

217:13 226:18

287:22

argument 129:12

339:21

arise 200:3

Arizona 20:13

Arlington 21:8

arm 242:13

arms 58:8

arrest 144:3

arriving 381:10

aside 142:20

aspect 127:2

143:13

aspects 26:22 27:4

262:17 266:11

269:2 371:5

aspirational

124:10

159:10,12

174:6,7 194:3

212:13 213:2

217:3,20 222:18

ASRAC 3:5,6 6:7

7:5,15 21:12,13

24:16 25:22

26:2,16,20

27:17,18,22

31:2,3,13,17,20,

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33:12 36:14

37:10,16 38:10

40:10,13,21

42:22 43:3 65:2

66:13,14

84:10,14 95:5
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170:2,10 171:1

189:21 190:1,4

207:21 237:8

243:12,19

245:18 246:2

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361:4 368:16

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ASRAC's 27:13

65:19 188:4,11

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assess 360:12

assessment 248:4

253:16,18

assessments

248:20

assign 69:5

assistance 139:20

242:12

Assistant 3:12

Associate 239:21

associated

248:11,14

253:18 362:3

association

19:18,21 20:22

187:14,16

237:16 239:12

241:19 242:4

associations

175:22

assume 25:3

137:10 220:11

232:10 333:14

assumed 73:22

assuming 81:8,14

97:11

assumption 35:11

111:6 256:20

assumptions 251:3

270:11 294:1,7

359:1

Attached 65:18

attack 304:13

attempt 133:13

203:13 204:19

205:9 225:7

attend 33:2 67:20

72:3,9,10 74:5

attendance

72:1,2,5 230:10

attending 72:22

attention 6:5,8

attorney 383:13

audible 254:13

377:2

audience 22:10

118:15

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August 1:5

273:1,3 274:6,7

276:4 285:6

authority 80:17

115:10,12

243:17 246:6

368:19

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81:15

autonomously

80:10

available 112:5

153:17 248:4

258:14,20

262:16 263:3

268:9 271:1

344:15 354:18

Avenue 1:10

average 54:3,4

avoid 175:11

197:3 214:8

224:7

aware 14:15

295:18

awareness 299:21

300:3 336:22

337:3,18

away 115:19

150:18 152:18

154:20 258:12

292:22 372:21

Awesome 236:17

awkwardness

201:16

B

background 19:7

backwards 122:7

bad 53:14 57:10

89:13 106:2

142:18 170:6

196:1 207:16

359:4 364:4

badge 9:12,15,17

badly 174:10

ballpark 372:18

bang 363:11

Bangladesh

57:13,18

bar 115:15,17,18

265:13,15,18

266:2

Barbour 2:17

21:22

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16:16,21 17:19

18:11,22 19:13

22:6

24:3,6,13,20

34:9 42:1

43:9,14 44:10

57:15,20 62:1

63:22 64:16,22

66:2

68:6,9,12,17,19

69:1,6,9

70:2,4,13,16,22

71:15,19 73:15

74:13,17,21

76:2,9 77:1,5

78:3,11,19

79:1,10 80:12,16

81:2 82:11,21

83:6,12 84:2

85:15 86:7,10,14

87:2,8,13

88:2,18

91:8,18,21

92:4,9,13,22

93:11,21 94:5,20

95:11 96:19

98:19 99:13

101:3 102:6

108:15,19

109:15 110:14

112:7,17,20

113:10 114:9,12

116:16 119:15

120:10,20

122:21 124:22

127:16,19 128:2

130:8,15,18

131:14 132:7

133:7 134:17,21

137:1,6,17

138:9,13

140:4,8,15,18,20

141:11,16,19,22

143:9 144:8

146:3,18 147:2,8
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barrier 326:9,18

barriers 325:9

334:12,20

base 287:6

based 19:19

20:4,8,11 21:2

46:14 79:5

80:10,22 109:1

113:4 114:15

138:18 170:8

222:15 241:20

246:13 247:5

268:4 292:17

304:15 342:17

352:12 361:17

369:9,10 370:4

371:2 373:13

baseline 249:16

250:4 266:21

267:7,11 344:19

345:8

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basically 37:1 78:8

112:22 119:1

137:11 171:3

179:12 214:7

293:11 342:13

367:14

basis 12:22

85:16,18 87:7

90:20 162:6

361:7

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BATNA 45:19,21

battle 114:21

Beard 3:13

beast 187:11

beat 163:14

166:17 178:10

211:4 223:12

224:17

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194:13

become 90:22

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248:1

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189:8

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behalf 25:6 37:16

68:1 90:7 116:10

153:20 175:9

176:3 177:16

behaving 195:19

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112:1 143:1,6

169:7 188:10

194:18 198:3

223:3 374:10

belabor 146:6

159:1

believe 7:17 23:12

25:11 40:13 56:8

59:3 63:13 79:6

167:12 180:18

183:17 185:8

208:2 233:15

251:13 254:6

267:8 321:4,6,9

326:18 329:2

376:12

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benefit 4:13

102:11 222:7

benefits 28:13

besides 26:17

145:22

best 12:5 15:5

36:21 45:19,22

59:14 100:13

103:8 123:18

128:20 144:16

191:22 209:21

231:16 250:9

261:6 369:1,2

385:5

better 11:5,6 28:8

71:6 126:9

129:11 133:15

194:4 197:1

204:22 221:1

222:14 254:1

266:16 273:22

274:22 275:16

276:5 277:14

285:15,16

290:13 314:19

324:16 343:1

345:21

beyond 97:18

bigger 114:21

bill 247:22

billing 106:6

143:11

bind 118:2 124:1

132:12,16

178:17 210:11

226:20

binding 74:7 87:11

93:12 124:14

144:18,22

160:17 175:2,3

222:20

birthday 273:11

284:12

bit 10:6 14:9 19:7

22:16 25:1,4

35:4 39:1 44:3

49:5 53:3 58:22

61:5,12 64:7

79:8 90:13

99:1,17

117:5,11,13,21

120:22 122:9

124:7 134:10,19

138:3 150:14

153:2 163:3

183:19 184:1

188:16 197:9

206:13 232:2,7

243:14,21

255:13,21

270:16 271:6

287:5 290:13,16

312:4 314:16

326:6,7 346:5

356:15 362:10

363:17

bite 164:19

bites 126:5

bits 222:22

black 30:11

blah 193:8

blatant 290:4

block

48:9,10,16,18

49:2 53:12,13

54:17 55:1,2

185:3

blocked 185:5

blocker 53:13

blocking 54:16

56:20 100:11

board 74:10

bodies 185:22

body 57:20

bogeyman 143:18

bogged 36:12
Capital Reporting Company

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boogeyman

166:15

book 142:1

books 272:21

boss 10:13,15

159:18

bothering 382:4

bottom 113:2

197:16 231:13

bound 87:12 91:16

111:6 113:8

126:13 127:13

133:1 136:17

141:14

176:19,21

box 30:12 120:22

328:21

bracelet 223:18

brainpower

163:11

brainstorm 291:1

bread 381:19

break 9:5,10

17:13,14,17,21

18:1 43:11,15,21

48:5 109:10

127:9,17 130:16

132:8 133:8

134:14 147:13

229:3,6,9 339:1

breaking 134:19

326:5

breaks 17:12,15

53:18

breath 116:18

brief 18:10 19:2

31:12 43:21

69:10 71:3

159:18

briefings 3:19

237:19

bright-eyed 382:2

bring 6:5,8 52:14

76:16 77:11

78:12 79:11

83:3,4 126:3

129:20 146:16

173:14 187:1

189:5 206:12

211:12 273:15

307:9 310:9

346:13,18 347:3

348:18 363:2

bringing 131:12

192:9 272:12

brings 108:20

brining 79:7

broad 127:3

294:13,14

296:18 306:18

333:13 341:16

342:13 350:2

359:10

broader 293:18

297:14 306:10

broadly 294:8

324:13 333:1

broke 294:18

381:19

broken 292:22

294:15 312:18

328:6

brought 15:14

78:9 180:8 210:9

224:19 286:17

293:7 347:15

Bryan 24:10

buck 363:12

buffet 9:13

build 104:22

250:19 300:14

builder 240:21

building 1:11

21:11,15,21

241:12

242:12,14

buildings 299:14

bullet 33:21

112:16

bumping 275:7

bunch 126:18

198:9 261:17

362:4

burden 330:17

334:1

bushytailed 382:2

business 164:16

242:14

busy 12:10 71:7

button 38:1

buy 130:7 186:21

239:22 294:11

361:14 363:18

373:15 374:4

buyers 240:10

buy-in 49:11

buying 147:1,3

C

cafeteria 9:11

14:17 147:4

381:20

calendar 33:7

calendars 272:13

candidate

298:16,19

capital 1:20 163:8

capture 185:10

196:14 256:3,6

290:19 291:20

328:9

captured 136:4

155:9

card 113:21

care 8:16 99:15

128:19 129:7

233:15 234:1

careful 196:16

317:7

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carried 170:8

carry 119:9

182:21 200:17

cartoon 247:22

carving 164:17

case 27:14 33:2

51:16 59:21

62:17 63:10

64:19 69:16

105:4,5,22 126:7

128:21 129:2

138:20 157:20

159:19 160:7

187:9 208:2

251:21 272:18

283:4,16 342:22

346:16 353:6

369:5 370:19

cases 40:20 328:20

345:2

Caskey 2:14 21:13

25:10 31:11,22

237:14 239:18

240:2,15,22

241:5,15,17

242:7,10,16,21

243:1,3 253:14

254:8 338:4,9
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366:14,21 368:6

casting 68:1

catchall 294:12

categories 307:1

category 297:15

306:18 313:1

333:6 339:6

350:2

caucus 67:5 73:10

78:8

caucuses 29:3

75:18

caught 256:21

cause 38:3

123:9,10

caution 350:5

Cavco 20:12 68:5

94:10 112:8

119:17 141:12

144:10 168:14

240:21 266:8

300:11 304:3

cease 7:13

ceases 67:13

central 26:19

CEO 89:15

115:6,14

237:17,18

CEOs 210:11

CEO's 115:5

116:1

cert 39:6 63:11

certain 7:15 16:13

26:22 49:21

78:16 136:11

149:13 154:18

156:9 327:9

328:20

certainly 142:7

154:7 186:1

253:17 259:15

292:19 307:6

332:7 354:18

369:22

CERTIFICATE

383:1 384:1

385:1

certification 27:1

39:8

certify 27:4 383:3

384:4 385:4

cetera 269:12

270:4 297:21

chair 33:22

challenge 88:13

122:6 160:15

174:10 184:8

186:14

207:12,18

challenges 87:18

132:2

challenging 186:8

chance 14:8,21

34:19 36:8

168:10 187:4

196:20

change 3:7 71:22

74:18 118:4

155:7 186:12

195:7 264:13

268:11 317:21

321:3 347:6

369:14 370:11

changed 74:10

95:17 244:3

265:11 346:21

changes 154:6

160:1 222:9

263:1 264:17,20

267:19 269:7

346:11 363:16

369:8 370:15

changing 103:12

143:19 155:6

217:4

characteristics

299:13 315:20

370:6

characters 366:16

charge 34:5

charm 223:18

chart 30:22 37:11

charter 3:5,6 7:5

26:2,9 31:4

37:13 38:7,18

39:9,11

chartered 26:17

38:11

cheap 373:14,15

check 18:3,8 24:8

51:15 55:8

166:20 167:3

230:2,17 252:1

263:5,6 271:19

296:12 351:6

checked 151:8

checking 86:12

278:14 377:5

checks 55:5 62:14

162:18

chew 35:6

Chicago 12:16

13:1

children 16:22

chime 162:11

255:16

choice 45:11,17

137:18

chunks 54:3

circle 267:17

circles 121:1

circulating 261:7

circumvent 259:19

cited 250:20

City 10:14

claim 265:6

clarification 63:19

76:10,12,21

107:12 218:19

378:1

clarified 247:1

clarifies 94:22

98:2

clarify 16:8 42:9

50:15 68:14

74:10 89:11

98:11 104:5,6

107:1 268:17

309:21

class 42:14

111:11,14

clause 93:15 232:4

clauses 188:7

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97:7

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202:9

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clear 13:5 35:22

37:6,7 42:5

54:13 55:10,19

61:3,17 79:13

103:3 104:2

107:10 131:5

141:5 149:5
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167:19 235:3

357:17,20

360:10 372:8

cleared 25:18

clearer 77:7 310:1

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260:19 321:10

360:14

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289:19,21

292:19 293:1

301:8 304:9

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342:22 353:22

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58:14 59:14

62:15 117:19

141:4 197:12

268:7 381:21

closer

113:12,18,19

130:21

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Coast 10:15 69:20

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code 7:17 240:19

241:12 244:4

250:20

251:10,11

264:9,22 265:12

266:10,11

267:2,20 304:9

318:21 345:3

354:17

356:17,18 357:6

371:3

Codes 20:11 21:11

240:17 264:20

coffee 8:16

cognitive 373:8

Cohen 23:10

coils 170:17

collaborate 117:2

colleague 12:14

381:21

colleagues 10:18

39:16 80:8

231:14

color 352:11

Columbia 383:21

column 269:14

C-O-M 296:8

combination

140:22

combinations

270:7

combine 134:13

combined 217:21

316:11

comes 5:12 6:2

31:15 32:8 37:7

56:15 60:20 61:2

88:7,20 93:7

94:17 95:19

96:13 100:13

104:10 152:6

153:15 154:6

180:20 190:2

193:6 201:19

332:8

comfortable

112:21 122:10

151:9 172:4

217:20 230:21

276:10 329:18

coming 7:1 30:20

105:18 116:20

121:9 128:20

195:2 211:15

244:1 245:11,12

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13:21 34:19 41:6

62:6 89:16

95:15,22

97:4,7,16,18,21

98:2,22

99:5,12,19,21

101:4 106:14

107:19 109:3,4

110:16

112:12,18

115:9,10 118:14

124:15 127:22

130:18 132:10

133:16 138:16

142:6 143:12,14

144:2 153:22

154:8,9 160:15

166:10 169:21

173:2,19 174:1

176:6,9,10 177:1

178:1 181:7,15

182:17

191:5,7,13

192:8,19,21

193:6,12,17,22

200:15,16,18

201:4,9,13

202:2,7

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209:15 222:5,12

226:9 227:20

246:8 264:7

270:17 295:12

301:4 321:14,18

325:1 340:7,20

342:11 348:21

349:3 360:9

373:11 374:1,9

377:15

commented

182:15 278:1

commenting 99:8

119:19 303:4

comments 14:1

15:1 41:7 85:22

86:1,15,18 87:17

88:6,10 94:15

95:14,15,22

96:8,16 102:6

103:12 107:5

112:10

114:13,18

115:16 116:12

127:17

130:14,16

132:4,7,9

134:15,16

137:13

138:18,19

139:7,14 141:9

143:19 144:21

145:1 151:2,4,16

152:1 155:15

156:20 159:6

160:17 161:13

167:9,10 168:15

171:8 173:4

175:7 177:18,21

182:5 184:8

185:4 191:20

192:2 193:3

194:21 195:22

197:7 199:8,12

200:21 203:16

205:13 210:2

214:15 215:4

222:11

225:10,20

227:22 228:5

244:18,19

278:15 286:10

305:9 374:11

376:22 380:17

commercial
Capital Reporting Company

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63:11 65:20

170:17 347:2

committed 266:4

committee 3:15,17

4:2 5:20 6:7

26:3,9

31:3,20,22

32:4,5 66:16

70:10 79:16,18

80:13,19 82:10

83:16,18 87:7

91:2 100:4,20

112:13 120:17

122:19 169:22

170:3 190:2

246:12 254:7

255:1 374:17

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150:22 176:2

245:11

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197:21 198:5

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241:9 242:9

260:14

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compare

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completely

48:5,14 49:1

101:13 122:17

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185:5 186:2

complexity 358:7

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40:2 41:12 42:6

318:9,15,17,18

321:12 323:9

complicated 48:21

comply 144:14

363:4,6

component 126:20

293:14

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39:13 63:3

131:21 241:2

244:12 250:4

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compromise

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161:18

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54:20 65:3 92:6

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174:2 182:13

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239:6,11 240:18

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293:20

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238:18 374:11

introduced 23:14
Capital Reporting Company

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introductions

18:15,17 19:3

237:11

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256:9 258:20

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263:7 265:12
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276:14 277:14

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I've 12:21 25:13

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James 2:17 23:2

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346:4,9,15,22

347:7

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59:1 85:8 124:10

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115:18 118:21

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82:12 102:1

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124:14

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132:12,16

144:18 175:1,2

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271:4 276:4

278:17,22 281:9

283:5,17 299:3

305:18 309:11

317:13 330:3

341:19

350:9,10,12

359:21

letter 144:2
Capital Reporting Company

Department of Energy Manufactured Housing Working Group 08-04-2014

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letters 149:12

letting 230:17

347:22

level 5:22 48:7,12

100:10 199:1

209:5 218:3

291:17,19

340:17

levels 7:20 26:21

27:9 28:5

38:8,12 100:9

231:11 252:10

253:8 265:11

leverage 32:3

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242:11

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291:12,14

292:14,17

293:10 294:5

295:10 306:22

307:5,8,19 308:8

323:6,8,13

328:8,14,17

334:2,11,14

335:4

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340:3 352:22

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371:7,13,22

lieu 204:3

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331:20

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248:15 253:3,12

332:10 338:1

369:11 370:21

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377:19 378:18

light 38:2 152:6

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108:16

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224:7

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14:9 16:2 18:6

19:7 22:16 25:1

29:3 33:12 35:4

36:13 37:22 39:1

44:3 48:21

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57:18 58:22 61:5

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99:1,5,16 101:21

110:19 116:19

117:5,9,10,13,21

118:12 120:22

122:9 124:7

126:17,18 127:2

130:21 134:19

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188:15 197:9

206:13 207:7

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232:2,7

243:13,20

247:22

255:13,18,21

265:13 268:10

270:16 271:6

287:5

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292:2 310:1

312:4 314:16

326:6 328:6

338:5 346:5

349:1 356:15

362:10 363:16

live 11:4 15:4

45:12 48:7,15

49:1 92:1,4

133:14 154:4

156:15 157:9

158:4 162:2

223:12 239:22

lived 381:20

lives 280:12

living 330:16

333:22

loading 168:6

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located 21:8 22:3

location 19:16

82:3

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287:13

logistics 9:10

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40:11 63:18

96:19 130:18

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40:7,8 42:4

46:22 47:15 89:1

106:17 110:17

126:21 132:1

134:4 148:13

149:21,22

162:17

163:21,22
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Page 34

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

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181:2 184:12

185:14 198:2

202:13

226:15,22 231:9

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238:3 251:3

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333:22

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108:18,19

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350:10 353:11

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ma'am 274:20

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331:1,7,20 332:4

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310:14 312:13

313:2

314:3,7,13,22

315:2,4,5,8,10,1

5,18,22

316:4,6,10,13,17
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Department of Energy Manufactured Housing Working Group 08-04-2014

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

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319:12,15 320:4

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subcommittees

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table 24:18 30:9

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terms 9:9 16:14

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there's 5:11 6:1,9

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16:13,18 18:20

28:22 29:1
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