“IMPACT AID: ENSURING ALL CHILDREN 

RECEIVE A QUALITY EDUCATION” 

HEARING

BEFORE THE 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM 

OF THE 

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND 

THE WORKFORCE 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, NOVEMBER 8, 2001 

Serial No. 107-38 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Education 

and the Workforce

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 

WASHINGTON : 2002 

80-216 pdf 

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office 

Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: (202) 512-1800 FAX: (202) 512-2250 

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ii

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE 

JOHN A. BOEHNER, Ohio, Chairman 

THOMAS E. PETRI, Wisconsin GEORGE MILLER, California 

MARGE ROUKEMA, New Jersey DALE E. KILDEE, Michigan 

CASS BALLENGER, North Carolina MAJOR R. OWENS, New York 

PETER HOEKSTRA, Michigan DONALD M. PAYNE, New Jersey 

HOWARD P. “BUCK” McKEON, California PATSY MINK, Hawaii 

MICHAEL N. CASTLE, Delaware ROBERT E. ANDREWS, New Jersey 

SAM JOHNSON, Texas TIM ROEMER, Indiana 

JAMES C. GREENWOOD, Pennsylvania ROBERT C. “BOBBY” SCOTT, Virginia 

LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina LYNN C. WOOLSEY, California 

MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana LYNN N. RIVERS, Michigan 

CHARLIE W. NORWOOD, JR., Georgia RUBEN HINOJOSA, Texas 

BOB SCHAFFER, Colorado CAROLYN McCARTHY, New York 

FRED UPTON, Michigan JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts 

VAN HILLEARY, Tennessee RON KIND, Wisconsin 

VERNON J. EHLERS, Michigan LORETTA SANCHEZ, California 

THOMAS G. TANCREDO, Colorado HAROLD E. FORD, JR., Tennessee 

ERNIE FLETCHER, Kentucky DENNIS KUCINICH, Ohio 

JIM DeMINT, South Carolina DAVID WU, Oregon 

JOHNNY ISAKSON, Georgia RUSH D. HOLT, New Jersey 

BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia HILDA L. SOLIS, California 

JUDY BIGGERT, Illinois SUSAN DAVIS, California 

TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania BETTY McCOLLUM, Minnesota 

 PATRICK J. TIBERI, Ohio 

 RIC KELLER, Florida 

 TOM OSBORNE, Nebraska 

 JOHN ABNEY CULBERSON, Texas 

Paula Nowakowski, Chief of Staff 

 John Lawrence, Minority Staff Director

 SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM 

MICHAEL N. CASTLE, Delaware, Chairman

BOB SCHAFFER, Colorado, Vice Chairman DALE E. KILDEE, Michigan 

THOMAS E. PETRI, Wisconsin ROBERT C. “BOBBY” SCOTT, Virginia 

MARGE ROUKEMA, New Jersey LYNN C. WOOLSEY, California 

JAMES C. GREENWOOD, Pennsylvania RUBEN HINOJOSA, Texas 

MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana CAROLYN McCARTHY, New York 

FRED UPTON, Michigan LORETTA SANCHEZ, California 

VAN HILLEARY, Tennessee HAROLD E. FORD, Jr., Tennessee 

VERNON J. EHLERS, Michigan HILDA L. SOLIS, California 

THOMAS G. TANCREDO, Colorado SUSAN DAVIS, California 

ERNIE FLETCHER, Kentucky MAJOR R. OWENS, New York 

JIM DeMINT, South Carolina DONALD M. PAYNE, New Jersey 

JUDY BIGGERT, Illinois TIM ROEMER, Indiana 

TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania RON KIND, Wisconsin 

RIC KELLER, Florida DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio 

TOM OSBORNE, Nebraska 

JOHN ABNEY CULBERSON, Texas 
iii

TABLE OF CONTENTS 

TABLE OF CONTENTS....................................................................................iii

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN MICHAEL N. CASTLE, SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

EDUCATION REFORM, COMMIITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE, U.S. 

HOUSE OF REPESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C..............................................1

OPENING STATEMENT OF REPRESENTATIVE MARK STEVEN KIRK (R-IL), U.S. 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C.............................................4

STATEMENT OF DR. PATRICIA PICKLES, SUPERINTENDENT OF SCHOOLS, NORTH 

CHICAGO PUBLIC SCHOOLS, NORTH CHICAGO, ILLINOIS....................................5

STATEMENT OF RICHARD VOUGHT, SUPERINTENDENT, LAC DU FLAMBEAU 

SCHOOL DISTRICT, LAC DU FLAMBEAU, WISCONSIN.........................................7

STATEMENT OF GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, U.S. ARMY (RET.), MANAGING 

DIRECTOR-MERCHANT BANKING, STEPHENS GROUP, WASHINGTON, D.C. ........9

STATEMENT OF DR. THOMAS J. MADDEN, SUPERINTENDENT, LEMONT 

TOWNSHIPHIGH SCHOOL DISTRICT #210, LEMONT, ILLINOIS.............................10

STATEMENT OF DENNIS JARRETT, DIRECTOR OF FINANCE, YORK COUNTY 

PUBLIC SCHOOLS, YORKTOWN, VIRGINIA.......................................................11

APPENDIX A -- OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN MICHAEL N. CASTLE, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM, COMMIITTEE ON EDUCATION AND 

THE WORKFORCE, U.S. HOUSE OF REPESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. ......31

APPENDIX B -- OPENING STATEMENT OF REPRESENTATIVE MARK STEVEN 

KIRK(R-IL), U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C.

..................................................................................................................37

APPENDIX C -- STATEMENT OF DR. PATRICIA PICKLES, SUPERINTENDENT OF 

SCHOOLS, NORTH CHICAGO PUBLIC SCHOOLS, NORTH CHICAGO, ILLINOIS

..................................................................................................................43

APPENDIX D -- STATEMENT OF RICHARD VOUGHT, SUPERINTENDENT, LAC DU 

FLAMBEAU SCHOOL DISTRICT, LAC DU FLAMBEAU, WISCONSIN

...................................................................................................................47
iv

APPENDIX E -- STATEMENT OF GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, U.S. ARMY (RET.), 

MANAGING DIRECTOR-MERCHANT BANKING, STEPHENS GROUP, WASHINGTON, 

D.C.

..................................................................................................................59

APPENDIX F -- STATEMENT OF DR. THOMAS J. MADDEN, SUPERINTENDENT, 

LEMONT TOWNSHIP HIGH SCHOOL DISTRICT #210, LEMONT, ILLINOIS

..................................................................................................................65

APPENDIX G -- STATEMENT OF DENNIS JARRETT, DIRECTOR OF FINANCE, YORK 

COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS, YORKTOWN, VIRGINIA

..................................................................................................................73

APPENDIX H -- WRITTEN TESTIMONY SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD FROM THE 

NATIONAL MILITARY FAMILY ASSOCIATION, ALEXANDRIA, VIRIGINIA

..................................................................................................................81

Table of Indexes

...................................................................................................................94
1

HEARING ON "IMPACT AID: ENSURING ALL 

CHILDREN RECEIVE A QUALITY EDUCATION" 

_________________________________________

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 8, 2001 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM, 

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:30 a.m., in Room 2175, Rayburn House 

Office Building, Hon. Mike Castle [chairman of the subcommittee] presiding. 

 Present: Representatives Castle, Schaffer, Petri, Ehlers, Tancredo, Fletcher, Biggert, 

Keller, Osborne, Kildee, Scott, Woolsey, McCarthy, Solis, Davis, Owens, Roemer, and 

Kucinich.

 Also Present: Representative Kirk. 

 Staff Present: George Conant, Professional Staff Member; Pam Davidson, Professional 

Staff Member; Patrick Lyden, Professional Staff Member; Deborah L. Samantar, Committee 

Clerk/Intern Coordinator; Jo-Marie St. Martin, General Counsel; Holli Traud, Legislative 

Assistant; Heather Valentine, Press Secretary; Denise Forte, Minority Legislative 

Associate/Education; Maggie McDow, Minority Legislative Associate/Education; Alex Nock, 

Minority Legislative Associate/Education; and Joe Novotny, Minority Staff Assistant/Education. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN MICHAEL N. CASTLE, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM, COMMIITTEE ON 

EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE, U.S. HOUSE OF 

REPESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. 

Chairman Castle. The hearing before the Subcommittee on Education Reform will come to 

order. We are meeting today to hear testimony ensuring that children on Impact Aid receive the 

quality education. 

 Under committee rule (12)(b), opening statements are limited to the chairman and the 

ranking minority member of the subcommittee. Therefore, if other members have statements 
2

they may be included in the hearing record. With that, I ask unanimous consent for the hearing 

record to remain open 14 days to allow members' statements and other extraneous material 

referenced during the hearing to be submitted in the official hearing record. Without objection, 

so ordered. 

 I am pleased to welcome our guests here today, witnesses and members, to the Education 

Reform Subcommittee hearing on Impact Aid. General Clark will be here at 11:00, I understand. 

 As many of you know, the operating funds for most school districts are generated by state 

and local taxes. Yet certain activities of the federal government such as the designation of 

federal or Indian lands deprive our school districts of the major source of revenue for their 

elementary and secondary schools. For this reason, the federal government has an obligation to 

compensate local school districts for the costs of educating federally connected students and 

ensure quality education for all, the children who reside on federal property and the other 

children attending school in that district. 

 The Impact Aid program supports schools serving children whose parents live and/or 

work on federal land, military and Indian families, for instance. And since most Impact Aid 

funds are considered general aid funds at the school district level, they can be used for a wide 

variety of school-related expenses, including teacher salaries, capital expenses and tutoring or 

remedial education services. 

 In my state of Delaware, Dover Air Force Base increases the enrollment of students in the 

Caesar Rodney School District while it reduces the tax base by removing this property from our 

tax rolls. In addition, the realignment of military forces can lead to major or unexpected influxes 

of military children into our school district and can strain school resources. Other states and 

school districts also miss sales tax revenues when military families shop in commissaries and 

exchanges.

 Consistent with our commitment to provide all children with a quality education, 

Congress has provided the Impact Aid program a substantial increase in funding. In fact, the 

House-passed version of the education-spending bill for fiscal year 2002 provides $1.1 billion for 

the Impact Aid program, an increase of $223 million over the last five years and a testament to 

the bipartisan support this program has enjoyed. 

 Since its creation in 1950, the Impact Aid program has seen many changes. Today's 

hearing is designed to learn how well this program has responded to the changing needs in 

school districts impacted by federally connected children. To that end we are fortunate to have a 

distinguished panel of witnesses, and I look forward to hearing their testimony. 

 In closing, I would like to thank my colleague, Representative Mark Kirk, for requesting 

this hearing and focusing our attention on this important issue. As a Lieutenant Commander in 

the Naval Reserves, Representative Kirk is all too familiar with the needs of military families, 

and his experience has enabled him to be an effective and untiring advocate for Impact Aid not 

only to improve the quality of life for our military families, but also to improve the quality of 
3

education for all students who benefit from the program. 

 I also would like to thank Representatives Judy Biggert and Susan Davis as well as my 

ranking member, Dale Kildee, for their continuing interest and leadership on this issue. 

 In a few minutes, we will proceed with introductions but at this time, I will yield to the 

gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Kildee for any statement he may wish to make. 

WRITTEN OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN MICHAEL N. CASTLE, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM, COMMIITTEE ON EDUCATION AND 

THE WORKFORCE, U.S. HOUSE OF REPESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. – SEE 

APPENDIX A 

OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MINORITY MEMBER DALE E. 

KILDEE, SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM, COMMIITTEE 

ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE, U.S. HOUSE OF 

REPESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C.

Mr. Kildee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank Governor Castle for holding today's 

hearing and the witnesses for their testimony. I have seen one of the witnesses; actually it has 

been 24 years since I have seen you as a freshman member of this committee. Good to see you 

again, Mr. Vought. 

 Impact Aid provides valuable resources to school districts, which have lost their ability to 

tax local real estate due to the federal government's responsibility, presence and ownership. 

Without the ability of certain local property taxes available for taxation, school districts have 

their ability to provide for quality education for their children greatly lessened. Impact Aid since 

1950 has attempted to respond to this problem by making up part of the difference in local lost 

revenues.

 Whether you consider the needs of a heavily impacted district with a large percentage of 

Indian or military children or a district impacted to a lesser degree, one thing remains constant, 

lost revenue does impact the education of children. In this case, with this program, conservative 

or liberal, Republican or Democrat, money does matter in helping those children. 

 I look forward to learning from all of you about the importance of Impact Aid in your 

districts. As Governor Castle knows, our conference committee on the Elementary and 

Secondary Education Act has completed its work on Impact Aid and turned this matter to other 

attention. Our conference committee has agreed upon important technical changes necessary to 

keep Impact Aid functioning as smoothly as possible, and Governor Castle played a major role in 

doing that. 

 Now is the time to continue the push for additional funding for this important program. 

The President recognized the importance of Impact Aid construction by proposing $150 million 

in his fiscal year 2002 budget. As the appropriations process finishes, we need to be mindful to 
4

ensure that Impact Aid is not left shortchanged. 

 In closing, I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing and hope we can 

use this discussion today to push for additional resources for this program. Thank you, Mr. 

Chairman. And I will run over and cast my vote and run right back. Thank you. 

Chairman Castle. Thank you, Mr. Kildee. We appreciate that. And let me announce to the 

witnesses and others who are here that we are going to continue this hearing through this vote.

There is one vote on the Journal. And Mrs. Biggert has gone to vote and she will take over the 

Chair and I will run to vote in the 15-minute period if all goes well. That is so we don't have to 

discontinue the hearing, which unfortunately can usually lead to about a 30-minute loss of time. 

 We will now go to our witness introductions. We have a lot of people who are going to 

introduce witnesses, but I will turn first to Representative Kirk. He will introduce General Clark 

when he arrives. But he is also going to introduce Dr. Pickles. So we will start with that 

introduction. We will go through all the introductions and then we will go through all of your 

statements to us. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF REPRESENTATIVE MARK STEVEN KIRK 

(R-IL), U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. 

Mr. Kirk. Thank you governor, for the extraordinary courtesy you give me as a noncommittee 

member to be here. And I want to introduce Dr. Pickles. I also want to particularly thank you 

and my other bipartisan colleagues on the Impact Aid issue, Rick Larsen, Tim Roemer and Susan 

Davis who have helped me out with this. I also want to thank Sage Lansing from my staff for 

putting our effort together. 

Dr. Pickles, you are one of the country's leading experts on Impact Aid, having run one of the 

most heavily impacted school districts in the nation. Over 35 percent of your students are 

federally impacted children. And you also went through one of the nightmare scenarios of the 

Impact Aid world, having faced bankruptcy with over a $4 million shortfall in the Impact Aid 

program. And thanks to the work of my predecessor and office, John Porter and the governor, 

we were able to rescue the North Chicago School District with a reform of the Impact Aid 

program. 

 I have to hand it to you; you have done a fantastic job. You are one of the most popular 

leaders in our community and delivering for the kids of North Chicago as it was your priority 

and is your priority and is now my priority. And so I look forward to your testimony and thank 

you so much for coming to share your thoughts with us. 

 Thank you, governor. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF REPRESENTATIVE MARK STEVEN KIRK (R-IL), U.S. 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. – SEE APPENDIX B 
5

Chairman Castle. Thank you, Representative Kirk. And Representative Scott will introduce 

Mr. Jarrett. 

Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is my pleasure to introduce Mr. Dennis Jarrett, 

distinguished member of our panel. He is the Chief Financial Officer for the York County 

school system in Virginia. York County school system is almost 12,000 students, and almost 

half of them are federally impacted students. York County receives $6.8 million a year in Impact 

Aid.

Mr. Jarrett has worked with federally impacted school districts since 1984. He is a 

licensed public accountant and currently serves as the Virginia Chair of the National Association 

of Federally Impacted Schools. Last year he was awarded the Administrator of the Year for the 

1999-2000 fiscal year by York County Association of Education Office of Professionals. 

Mr. Chairman, the students and schools in Tidewater, Virginia are well represented by 

Mr. Jarrett. Many of them are impacted. While York County is technically not in my district, it 

is one of numerous localities in the Hampton Roads, Tidewater area represented by Congressman 

Jo Ann Davis, Congressman Ed Schrock, Congressman Randy Forbes and myself, all of which 

are heavily impacted by the presence of numerous military bases and other federal facilities. 

 So I appreciate Mr. Jarrett joining us today and look forward to his testimony as well as 

the testimony of others. 

Chairman Castle. Thank you, Representative Scott. We appreciate that. And I will introduce 

Mr. Vought, who is the Superintendent of Lac du Flambeau School District in the heart of north 

central Wisconsin. Lac du Flambeau is located on the Indian reservation, and he will be 

testifying on the importance of Impact Aid funding for a school district where the population is 

96 percent native American. 

 I apologize if my introduction is not as flowery as some of the others who were 

introducing their constituents, but we are very pleased to have you here and look forward to 

hearing your testimony. 

Dr. Madden will be introduced by Mrs. Biggert when she gets back, and Mr. Kirk will 

introduce General Clark. So we will hold those introductions until they get back. 

 We are ready, Dr. Pickles, to start with your testimony. The basic rules, as you know, are 

that you have five minutes. There is a green light for four minutes, yellow light for one minute 

and the red light for thereafter, and we hope that by the time you see the yellow you are thinking 

about winding up, by the time you see the red you start bringing it to closure. 

Dr. Pickles.

STATEMENT OF DR. PATRICIA PICKLES, SUPERINTENDENT OF 

SCHOOLS, NORTH CHICAGO PUBLIC SCHOOLS, NORTH CHICAGO, 
6

ILLINOIS

Dr. Pickles. I would like to thank the subcommittee for taking time to hear me this morning. 

First of all, where is the light? Again, I would like to thank the subcommittee for taking time to 

hear me this morning. 

 I would like to reiterate what Congressman Kirk said and that is that 10 years ago, North 

Chicago Public Schools was on the verge of dissolving as a school district because they did not 

have the funds to actually continue to provide quality education for the students. Today, that 

scenario has turned around. And if you can kind of display the charts that I have to illustrate. 

 Impact Aid has actually increased over the years, which is illustrated by the charts you 

see. And because of that increase, we have actually had an opportunity to address the needs in 

our strategic plan and that is virtually building a new school and adding on to six others 

classrooms and multi-purpose rooms, adding a new TV, radio studio, adding new science labs. 

Due to the increase, we have also been able to address academic needs of our students, 

expanding reading programs, adding more advanced placement programs. 

 I want you to understand that I am talking about a district where at least 70 percent of the 

students qualify for free and reduced meals. I am talking about a district where 17 percent of the 

students actually qualify for special education and at least five percent are served through our 

bilingual program. 

 When we consider the goals of our President George Bush and in his reprint, No Child 

Left Behind, he has seven goals that he outlines, and included in those goals is providing quality 

education for disadvantaged students, providing safe schools, and it talks about Impact Aid, 

increasing Impact Aid. And I think if we increase Impact Aid, then we can actually have the 

opportunity to address the other goals that are listed in No Child Left Behind. 

 As we talk about Impact Aid, under the current formula for North Chicago Public 

Schools, we are currently funded under the current formula. However, all districts don't have 

that opportunity. So I am here to speak not just for North Chicago but all of the children across 

the district. And as we look at Impact Aid, as we think about even at this very time that 

Congress is considering increasing the funds for students with disabilities, the promise that they 

made 25 years ago, I would think that Impact Aid, particularly at this time, would be of utmost 

importance. And it was a promise that Congress made more than 50 years ago. I would think 

that that would be a non-negotiable. 

 As individuals go off and fight for our country, I would think that we would also be at 

home fighting for quality of life for the children that they leave behind. I truly believe that all 

children can learn, that all children will learn if they are taught and if we care enough to provide 

the resources and the support that is needed to make them successful. 

STATEMENT OF DR. PATRICIA PICKLES, SUPERINTENDENT OF SCHOOLS, NORTH 

CHICAGO PUBLIC SCHOOLS, NORTH CHICAGO, ILLINOIS – SEE APPENDIX C 
7

Mrs. Biggert. [Presiding.] Thank you very much. I would like to take this opportunity to 

introduce another witness, and I would like to thank Mr. Castle for holding today's hearings on 

the successes and challenges of the Federal Impact Aid program. 

 I think, as my colleagues are aware, the federal government provides payments to the 

Impact Aid program to local school districts adversely impacted because of the federal presence. 

And in my congressional district, three school districts receive Impact Aid dollars, Lemont, Cass 

and Palisades. And this funding results from the presence of the Department of Energy's 

Argonne National Laboratory. And when Argonne was established in the mid-1940s, 

approximately 4,800 acres were taken over by the federal government and removed from the tax 

rolls. So this means that the school districts have fewer tax dollars to educate the same number 

of students that other school districts would have. 

 So Dr. Thomas J. Madden serves as the superintendent of one of those school districts, 

the Lemont Township High School District 210, and he has firsthand experience in meeting the 

challenges of fewer tax dollars to educate more than 1,000 students. So I worked closely with 

Dr. Madden for many years on Impact Aid and other education matters, and he is certainly 

recognized in the community as an education leader and even within the state of Illinois. So he 

knows the difference that Impact Aid funds can make. 

 So I am happy to welcome Dr. Madden and introduce him to the subcommittee. 

 I think we will continue until we have more of our members here and continue with the 

testimony so that we can introduce General Clark. I would like to welcome here now, but we 

will hold off just a minute if we might and have Mr. Richard Vought, if you want to give your 

testimony. 

STATEMENT OF RICHARD VOUGHT, SUPERINTENDENT, LAC DU 

FLAMBEAU SCHOOL DISTRICT, LAC DU FLAMBEAU, WISCONSIN 

Mr. Vought. I have submitted a copy of all this. I submitted a copy of my testimony here, so 

you can read that and I won't be redundant and read it to you, but I concur with Dr. Pickles on 

the importance of Impact Aid to military districts. These students in these districts are highly 

mobile, and there is an extra cost of educating students that are highly mobile. 

 Equally true is education for Indian youth on Indian reservations. In our district, 96 

percent of our students are of Native American ancestry and approximately the same amount live 

on nontaxable land. From the Impact Aid program, we derive 40 percent of our budget to run the 

school district, and the needs of the youth are many. 80 percent of our clientele receive free or 

reduced lunches. Our special education population is over 20 percent and growing every year, as 

is everyone's throughout the country, as there is more and more categories of disabilities being 

identified.

 Additional costs that we are incurring lately, health insurance has been going up at an 

alarming rate, over 20 percent the last two years. And if this continues it will double within four 
8

or five years. So these are costs that come out of the general coffers and we need Impact Aid to 

keep the coffers to pay our staff. 

 I read some time ago that every dollar that is spent on education saves four dollars later 

on in the student's life on social programs and prisons. I think Impact Aid is the means by which 

many, many school districts throughout this country are able to offer educational programs for 

their youth, and it not only needs to continue, but also needs to expand and we need to be 

guaranteed that this money will be there. If it is not there, the local property taxpayer has to 

make up the difference. And the local property taxpayer, the property taxes is the most tangible 

of all taxes. They know what they are spending to educate a child in the country. They don't 

know what they are spending to keep a prisoner in jail, but they know what they are spending in 

their district to educate a child. 

 I urge your support for the Impact Aid program and I urge your support in making it an 

entitlement. 

STATEMENT OF RICHARD VOUGHT, SUPERINTENDENT, LAC DU FLAMBEAU 

SCHOOL DISTRICT, LAC DU FLAMBEAU, WISCONSIN – SEE APPENDIX D 

Mrs. Biggert. Thank you very much for your testimony, and we will get to all the questions 

after all the testimony, as I am sure Mr. Castle mentioned. Now that Representative Kirk is 

back, if you would like to introduce General Clark. 

Mr. Kirk. Thank you, Chairman Biggert. General Clark and I used to work together during the 

Operation Display Determination, an Allied Force. I was very low on the totem pole there. And 

he also visited our squadron when we were conducting Operation Northern Watch at Incirlik, 

and we were able to serve, over the engine repair facilities, some very bad scrambled eggs for 

you, general. I don't think anyone has gained a reputation as a commander of the modern 21st 

century environment, coalition warfare, making sure that the United States achieves both its 

political and military objectives better than General Clark, who is one of the most thoughtful 

members of the military service we have ever had, one of the most successful with the Allied 

Force being able to take out one of the largest militaries that we have ever taken on without a 

single combat casualty. And I could think of no one who could better speak on behalf of the 

greater military family and dependents than someone who has so honorably served this nation for 

so long and who can advise as to how to back up the men and women of the armed forces with 

the quality of life that keeps their head in the cockpit and focused on the mission ahead. 

 So, general, we welcome you and thank you for coming. 

Mrs. Biggert. Thank you. And I am going to yield 30 seconds to the ranking member, Mr. 

Kildee.

Mr. Kildee. General Clark, my son, Captain Paul Kildee, had the good fortune to serve under 

your command both in Stuttgart, Germany and in Bosnia and I personally salute you. 
9

Mrs. Biggert. I think we will proceed then, General Clark, with our testimony. 

STATEMENT OF GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, U.S. ARMY (RET.), 

MANAGING DIRECTOR-MERCHANT BANKING, STEPHENS GROUP, 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

General Clark. Thank you very much. I never had the opportunity to testify before this 

subcommittee before and I am very pleased and honored to have the opportunity to do so, and I 

did submit a written statement. And what I would like to say just in amplification for that is, I 

think the case for Impact Aid for the military students is self-evident. Our military personnel are 

moved from location to location. They are frequently transferred even during a school year, and 

particularly now at a time of what is a national emergency for this country. I think we want to do 

everything we can to attract and retain the very top quality people in the armed forces today, both 

in the officer corps and in the enlisted noncommissioned officer corps. 

 One of the things I found throughout my service is that the quality of their children's 

education matters a very great deal to the members of the armed forces. They worry about it. 

They plan on it. They try to save money for it, but ultimately they are victims. They are victims 

of the assignment process, and particularly in overseas commands, but also in the United States 

when, on 3-year cycles, they come in and they are caught up with their own duties in a very allencompassing way. 

 Their children are put into public schools on the basis of trust. They don't know their 

neighbors. They don't have siblings that have been to the schools. The schools don't know them. 

And by the time the service members recover from the shock of transfer, they are usually twothirds of the way through the school year. They haven't had a chance to become personally 

involved in the schools that are normal for parents in most of their communities. Then in the last 

year, they are worried about their reassignments. So they often aren't as involved in the schools 

as they should be. 

 We have to help those school districts, I believe, by giving them full and adequate 

resources they require to provide a quality education for these children. It is a matter of money 

in part because the constant turnover of people means that it is much more difficult to take 

curricula and bring them through a school system. These children are coming in from other 

schools. They have other needs. They have catch-up needs. They have acculturation needs. 

 And it does put an added burden on a school system, and that added burden is met in 

most of these communities with a reduced tax base as a result of federal installations in the area. 

So it is sort of a double whammy on a school district. 

 I just think that there is probably nothing we can do that is more important in the longterm health of the armed forces than assure the members in the services that their children will 

receive a very high quality public education. 
10

 Thank you for the opportunity to testify. 

STATEMENT OF GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, U.S. ARMY (RET.), MANAGING 

DIRECTOR-MERCHANT BANKING, STEPHENS GROUP, WASHINGTON, D.C. – SEE 

APPENDIX E 

Mrs. Biggert. I forget to turn on my mike. Thank you very much for your testimony and now 

Dr. Madden, if you would proceed. 

STATEMENT OF DR. THOMAS J. MADDEN, SUPERINTENDENT, 

LEMONT TOWNSHIP HIGH SCHOOL DISTRICT #210, LEMONT, 

ILLINOIS

Dr. Madden. Thank you. There are times when the presence of the federal government has a 

negative financial impact on local school districts. This impact gives the Impact Aid program its 

name. 

 In the case of federal properties school districts, the negative financial impact is the 

marked reduction of local tax revenues needed to operate schools. As mentioned by 

Congresswoman Biggert, when Argonne National Laboratory was established, approximately 

4,800 acres were taken over by the federal government and taken off the tax rolls of my school 

district. That is 4,800 acres for which we are not receiving tax revenue. My school district must 

educate over a thousand students and our local residents through their local property taxes 

shoulder the greatest portion of the financial burden for doing so. The burden on these local 

taxpayers became much, much greater when the federal government took over ownership of 

about 25 percent of the total acreage of our school district. It still costs just as much to operate 

our district, but our ability to raise local taxes to do so is greatly curtailed because of the 

presence of the federal government; hence, federal Impact Aid. 

 The problem, however, is that federal properties school districts have been receiving 

about eight cents on the dollar for this lost tax revenue. There is an analogy, the renter's analogy; 

I have used to illustrate the impact I am referring to. Instead of a public school district, let us use 

a three-unit apartment building as our example. This building has three renters, each paying 

$1,000 per month. The total monthly rent of $3,000 allows the owner to pay all necessary 

expenses and make a modest profit. Then one day, one of the three renters goes to work for the 

federal government and for that reason and that reason alone is no longer required to pay the 

$1,000 monthly rate, but the owner still needs $3,000 per month to operate. So the other two 

renters must make up the difference and their monthly rent increases to $1,500, well, almost. 

The federal government does realize its impact and provides aid in the amount of $80, that is 

eight cents on the dollar for the loss of that $1,000. So the remaining two renters must now pay 

$1,460 a month instead of a thousand. 
11

 If we substitute remaining local taxpayers for remaining renters, we see that the analogy 

does serve to illustrate the real world of federal Impact Aid and the importance to local school 

districts. The lost dollars could be used to buy books, hire teachers, and improve facilities and a 

host of other basic needs and improvement efforts and projects. Lost revenues deny local 

communities such basic educational necessities. 

 Finally, I would like to comment on what can be an overused term; namely, 

"entitlement." I am sure that the elected officials of Congress face a continual stream of 

constituents asking for funds of one type or another in the name of entitlement. Here is what I 

know. As a school superintendent, I realize we receive federal funds for a number of challenges 

we face. We receive funds to help with reading, science and math instruction, vocational 

instruction, and drug education. Make no mistake about it; we very much appreciate the 

financial assistance of the federal government with these challenges. But I cannot help recognize 

that these problems are not caused by the federal government. They exist across the country, but 

they are local problems. 

 With Federal Impact Aid, however, the federal government has actually caused the 

problem. Because of the federal presence, local school districts are required to spend additional 

dollars to educate more students than it would otherwise have to or, as is the case with federal 

properties districts, they are required to educate the same number of students with many fewer 

dollars. Since this negative financial impact is actually caused by the presence of the federal 

government, I don't think any better case for entitlement can be made. 

 The federal Impact Aid program is one of the most popular, most bipartisan programs 

existing today. It provides important funding that goes directly to school districts to be used to 

help students and to operate schools. The Impact Aid community is deeply grateful to the 

members of Congress for supporting us and supporting such funding. We are grateful to these 

members for understanding that the funding levels have been inadequate for years, and we are 

grateful for their continuing efforts to maintain the program and increase such funding, 

especially over the past few years. 

 Thank you very much for this opportunity to address you. 

STATEMENT OF DR. THOMAS J. MADDEN, SUPERINTENDENT, LEMONT TOWNSHIP 

HIGH SCHOOL DISTRICT #210, LEMONT, ILLINOIS – SEE APPENDIX F 

Chairman Castle. [Presiding.] Thank you very much, Dr. Madden. And Mr. Jarrett is next. 

STATEMENT OF DENNIS JARRETT, DIRECTOR OF FINANCE, YORK 

COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS, YORKTOWN, VIRGINIA 

Mr. Jarrett. Well, many of the remarks that I had on my sheets to make have already been 

made. I am basically left with thank you, but I will add a few more remarks that I have specific 

to our school division. First, I would like to thank you for your support of the Impact Aid 
12

program, and I would like to particularly thank Congressman Mark Kirk and Congresswoman 

Susan Davis for their sponsorship for the Grade-A Impact Aid Bill, which would have made 

Impact Aid an entitlement program. This bill was not successful. However, it did raise a level 

of awareness for Impact Aid for school districts across the nation. 

 York County School Division is a heavily impacted school district. We have 44 percent 

of our 12,000 students are federally connected. Of that 44 percent, half of those are connected to 

the military and the federal government owns 40 percent of the land in York County. Some of 

the federal installations in York County include United States Coast Guard Training Station in 

Yorktown, the Naval Weapons Station in Yorktown, Camp Perry Armed forces Training 

Facility, the Bethel Manor Housing Annex for families stationed at Langley Air Force Base and 

the Colonial National Historical Park. 

 York County's fiscal year 2002 budget includes $6.8 million for Impact Aid. This 

equates to nine percent of our budget. Impact Aid is vital to the operations of the school 

division's budget. $6.8 million is equivalent to 180 teachers. In York County, we employ 

approximately 820 teachers. So that is approximately 22 percent of our teacher workforce. If we 

did not have Impact Aid and we had to eliminate 22 percent of our teachers, it would be 

devastating on the education program in York County. 

 In addition to teachers' salaries, we use Impact Aid to provide textbooks, instructional 

supplies, and equipment to the classroom. We use it to maintain our facilities, including heating, 

ventilation, and maintenance of equipment. If York County were to receive additional Impact 

Aid money over what we are receiving right now, we would direct those funds towards at-risk 

programs, special education programs for students with disabilities. We would be looking at 

student assessment and student accountability. 

 I would like to thank you for the opportunity to come before you today, and if you have 

any questions, I will try to answer those for you. 

STATEMENT OF DENNIS JARRETT, DIRECTOR OF FINANCE, YORK COUNTY 

PUBLIC SCHOOLS, YORKTOWN, VIRGINIA – SEE APPENDIX G 

Chairman Castle. I believe everybody has had a chance to testify. We will now go to 

questions. I know General Clark has a time limit. The basic thrust here is it is also five minutes. 

The clock should work as well. What we would like to do is to get the questions and answers in 

during the five-minute period. But if the red light does go on and three people want to answer 

the questions, if you could sort of move quickly, that would be helpful, because we really want to 

give everybody a chance and everybody has busy schedules. I will yield to myself for fiveminutes to start the questions. 

 I want to ask you, General Clark, a question, and that is, do military children, since they 

move more often than civilian children, have more unique educational needs? Are they able to 

keep up with the normal educational career? Do they need remedial education in order to keep 

up with their peers? 
13

 Before you answer that, I have had sort of the reverse experience. I saw an article 

recently saying that actually military children are advantaged in education; used to a greater 

discipline, parental interest. I also have a nephew who is a major in the Army whose two kids 

are sharp as tacks. So it is hard for me to ask that question. But I have visited our schools at 

Dover Air Force Base, and obviously it is different. If you could argue better or worse, I would 

be interested in your views. 

General Clark. For any particular school or any particular family, it is very much a function of 

the parents themselves and what value they put on education and what opportunities they have to 

put value on education. But in general, there is an adverse impact for moving around that we 

have seen, and that adverse impact is that you learn one year of math in one curriculum. You 

then move to another school district, they don't use that math program. So the concepts that the 

third grader learned in the second grade, when he comes to the new school district, they are not 

there. He becomes a problem for the teacher. And there has to be some transition for that. 

 In Europe, for example, for a long time we were using a math system that had been 

thrown out by the state of California, but it was obsolete. Kids that went from Europe back to 

the states were in a different curriculum of instruction. And I think that is just a small example 

of how when you move from place to place, you pick up knowledge that is taught in a way that it 

doesn't dovetail into the next year's study. Sometimes you are making the transfer in the middle 

of the year. So it is even more difficult for the children. 

 So on balance, despite the advantages of moving around, despite parents who for the 

most part very much care for education, despite a program I put in at Fort Hood, Texas, where 

there was student counseling with the teacher, I required the service member to leave his place of 

employment and go and be with his or her child and the teacher. So it was a teacher-parent-child 

conference and all those things help. 

 But it is still the stress of the move, the making new friends, the fitting into a new 

community, the new learning course of instruction. It is, I believe, a disadvantage for the 

children on balance. 

Chairman Castle. I wasn't going to ask this, but if you have a career military person, and there 

probably aren't any statistics on this, are there any statistics how many moves they are likely to 

make in the course of a 12-year, K through 12 if you will, part of their lives? 

General Clark. There are those statistics. I don't have them available right now. We could 

provide them. I will contact someone in the Pentagon to get them for you. But on the average, 

the Army and the other services will tell you they try three to four years on each duty station. 

But the actual practice is that it is impossible, for various reasons. And so it is on an average, my 

experience has been, about every two years. 

Chairman Castle. That is good to know. Let me ask of Mr. Vought and Dr. Madden and Mr. 

Jarrett, when federal property is transferred back to non-federal status, which obviously happens 

for a lot of reasons, but we are looking at potential base closings, as you know, and for other 

reasons that it happens, how much time in your opinion would a school district need to have that 
14

property back on the tax rolls before Impact Aid funding ceased? Obviously, there is a transition 

in a situation such as that. Dr. Madden. 

Dr. Madden. I believe for years the transition period has been one year, and that has been taken 

care of through the law. I believe the reauthorization changes that language to make it a 2-year 

phase-in period, and that is what the Impact Aid community believes it would take to get the 

properties back on the tax rolls. 

Chairman Castle. Do you concur in that roughly or you are not expert enough? 

Mr. Jarrett. That is correct. 

Chairman Castle. Thank you. The Impact Aid program was revised and reauthorized during 

the 106th Congress. In your view have these changes been beneficial to your school district and 

the students you serve? 

Mr. Vought. Impact Aid has increased for our school district. However, the other costs have 

also increased with special education, health insurance. 

Chairman Castle. So you are saying it is a race, in other words? This has increased, but the 

other costs have increased, too? 

Mr. Vought. That is true. And we are also dealing with different problems now. We are 

becoming the nurse in many cases, passing out prescriptions to students, and safety concerns 

since the Columbine thing. There are additional costs with that, and safety plans. That costs 

people money and time. So Impact Aid has increased; it is a losing battle almost. 

Mr. Jarrett. I would like to add, for York County, Langley Air Force Base is the compassionate 

assignment, and we typically get quite a few students with disabilities there. We have five 

students right now in York County School Division that we have to pay $100,000 a year for 

private residential treatment. I am not saying those are military students but those could be 

potential military students because of the compassionate assignment. Impact Aid doesn't come 

anywhere close to covering that. 

Chairman Castle. Mr. Kildee. 

Mr. Kildee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. General Clark, I am a former teacher, so when I 

interview people for various things, particularly a job, I always ask where they went to school.

And of course, they always tell first the university. But being a high school teacher, I say, which 

high school, which elementary school? And pretty often, they will say five or six or more 

schools, my father was in the military. So I recognize that there is a big difference and it does 

present challenges. I think the fact that the parents are keeping involved helps offset some of 

those challenges. And I want to make sure that we keep our responsibility. 

 I have worked very closely with General Shinseki's wife and some other officers' wives 

on addressing both DOD schools and Impact Aid schools, and I think we have at all times a 
15

need, an obligation, a moral responsibility to take care of our military and particularly at this 

time. And I really appreciate the testimony you gave indicating the particular needs and 

particular situations they have. No siblings in that school, no friends in the area, the school 

doesn't know them, and I appreciate you personalizing that for us. 

 Let me ask, Mr. Vought, what percentage of students do you have in your school district 

that qualify for Impact Aid? 

Mr. Vought. About 96 percent of our students live on nontaxable land. 96 percent. And it has 

nothing to do with nationality. It is where the child lives. 

Mr. Kildee. What is your average expenditure per student in that school district? 

Mr. Vought. Approximately $12,000. 

Mr. Kildee. Do you know what the average cost of schools around the area, non-Impact Aid 

schools, what it might be? 

Mr. Vought. They are comparable in the area. We are higher than the state average. We are a 

lot higher than the state average. 

Mr. Kildee. What particular problems do you have in hiring and maintaining staff at the 

schools? 

Mr. Vought. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Kildee. You are able to attract staff? 

Mr. Vought. We spend a lot of time on staff development. We offer our staff a graduate 

program that is taught right at school in quality schools. It is based on the work of Deming, who 

was an industrialist, and on quality interactions. I never lost a staff member last year. 

Mr. Kildee. Without Impact Aid, however, you could not maintain that record? 

Mr. Vought. We could not do many things that we do dealing with non-educational things that 

are important to a quality school. Dealing with attitude, with peoples' attitude, with children's 

attitude and parents' attitude is sometimes time consuming. A lot of counselors are needed. 

Mr. Kildee. You know, many, many years ago, back in 1981, when we were cutting the budget, 

cutting even school lunch and various education programs, I remember I made a statement, and I 

was kind of sitting down in that level and I didn't have much seniority, saying that if we were to 

stop all federal aid to education, which I would never want to do. I am a strong advocate of 

federal aid to education, if we were, we could not stop it for the Indians because in all the treaties 

I have read, including the treaty of Detroit, which I read extensively, we promised education. 

We took millions of acres of land from Indians and promised in return education. So we have I 
16

think a constitutional, legal and moral responsibility to our Indian children. 

Mr. Vought. And Impact Aid is the only means by which this treaty obligation is being met in 

many cases. 

Mr. Kildee. Well, I have traveled to Indian Country for 25 years now and visited both BIA 

schools and Impact Aid schools and appreciate what you are doing. Very often they are under 

great difficulties. You are doing a great job in your school district, and we appreciate that. 

 Thank you very much. 

Chairman Castle. Thank you, Mr. Kildee. Mrs. Biggert. 

Mrs. Biggert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that with the Impact Aid schools, like other 

school districts, you are really having to face the 21st century and all of the challenges that that 

embodies with the new technology for teaching and the advanced courses that are being taught 

and the programs and certainly the more specialized curriculum to prepare students for the new 

economy, and certainly these all cost money, and with the Impact Aid, as Dr. Madden talked 

about, and how the gap in the funding is on the dollars. I would like first of all for Dr. Madden, 

if you could share with the subcommittee your thoughts on the gap in a little more detail and how 

your district has worked to overcome that gap and to be able to provide the quality education to 

students. And do you think that with this gap that the children are being left behind further and 

further in that there could be, you know, less skill being able to be delivered, you know, if the 

gap isn't fixed? 

Dr. Madden. Yes. As was mentioned earlier, sometimes it is a race just to stay even at best and 

not fall much farther behind at worst. We are a high school district. And the kinds of challenges 

facing us, as you mentioned, increased technology, increased sophistication of technology, the 

expenses of science laboratories, educating a high school student costs more than educating a 

public school student at any other level. We are a high school district but compared to other high 

school districts in the state of Illinois, we are spending $900 less per pupil. And it would cost 

our district approximately $1 million additional per year just to be average in the state of Illinois. 

 That is why Impact Aid is so important to us. We are $900 below the state average. But 

if it weren't for Impact Aid, we would be $1,300 below the state average. What is ironic is that 

we have a gem in our school district, and it is called Argonne National Laboratory. But because 

of the reduced funding that we have and the reduced expenditure per pupil, it is less likely that 

our own graduates will be able to eventually go to work at Argonne National Laboratory as it is 

for some of our surrounding high school districts. 

 Make no mistake about it; we appreciate the support the program has received over the 

years. We appreciate the funding. We appreciate the increased funding, and I think we all need 

to recognize that even though we are on the right track, a lot more work needs to be 

accomplished. 
17

Mrs. Biggert. Thank you. Maybe Dr. Pickles. Impact Aid has a remarkably flexible program 

and school districts have been able to use it for many purposes and I guess most importantly is 

that the local school districts can decide how to use it. Could you talk about the flexibility and 

how you have used the Impact Aid in your district? 

Dr. Pickles. Impact Aid in my district has been used as matching funds for construction, as I 

mentioned previously, to virtually build a new school and add classrooms to six other schools. It 

has been used to upgrade instruction, the new facilities, new TV and radio, more advanced 

placement classes, extending the reading program. It has been used to do even innovative things; 

such as we have a performance-based pay plan for teachers. 

 So the focus is always on smaller teacher-pupil ratios, quality teaching and how can we 

encourage and motivate teachers to meet those standards. So it is always focused on improved 

student performance and quality education. 

Mrs. Biggert. Thank you. I see my time is just about up. 

Chairman Castle. General Clark has to leave in about 14 minutes. I am going to Ms. Davis 

next. And unless anyone objects, I would like to go to Mr. Kirk, who is not officially a member 

of the subcommittee, but who is significant in having this hearing and having General Clark 

here. So let us go to Mrs. Davis. 

Mrs. Davis. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank Congressman Kirk for 

bringing this forward. This is, I think, a real common sense measure, and I appreciate you all 

being here today. Thank you, General Clark, as well for your important testimony. 

 Representing San Diego, you can be assured that this is an issue very dear to our hearts. I 

served on the San Diego Unified School Board for nine years, and I always felt I was running 

around talking to people about Impact Aid all the time. 

 But I wanted to very briefly, I think Dr. Madden and others have spoken about lost 

revenue. And just as an example, just lost revenue alone in terms of property at Miramar Air 

Station and Murphy Canyon would be generating well over $100 million today at market rate in 

the community and we get about $7 million for that. And on the funding side for students, we 

are entitled to over $30 million of support and we receive about 7 million; 6 million. So 

certainly in terms of a gap in what you would expect for that funding, San Diego as well as any 

other community certainly recognizes the difference. But what I wanted to really focus on is the 

bill itself and the change in language and what that would mean, the real impact of moving from 

eligibility to entitlement. 

 One of the problems that we have in San Diego, and I am sure that you all share, is 

receiving the money when we need it. And I wondered if you could speak to that, because I 

think the importance of planning and implementation is so key. There have been years when we 

are probably about four years in terms of what we really should be getting. And as you can well 

imagine, not only are we not getting the funding for that year, but it compounds because it hasn't 
18

been there and available for students and for the school from years past. 

 Could you please speak to that and what specifically, if you can, as an entitlement, why 

this is so critical and so important to school districts as it affects our military families? 

Mr. Jarrett. Well, I think it is important to realize first off, Impact Aid, it is not a forward 

funding program. Many of the other education programs like Title I is forward funded. So the 

funds that go out to school districts in this program, for example, the fiscal year 2002 federal 

budget, they have not been released and will not be released until the budget is approved. 

Our applications will be due in to the Department of Education most likely the February 

time frame this year. So those funds probably are not going to be released from the school 

districts until the latter part of the spring, maybe first part of the summer. That is with section 

8003 funding. And those funds will also pay out over several years. The problem is amplified in 

the section 8802 area because those funds tend to have a further lag with them, as 

Congresswoman Davis indicated. In fact, we just recently received our fiscal year 1996 payment 

or partial payment for section 8802. And we have received some payments, but some of the 

payments have not been released, and we just recently received the final payment for fiscal year 

1996. So over time, the payments do tend to lag, and I think part of the problem is because it is 

not a forward-funded program. 

Dr. Madden. If I may add to that, I think what you are getting at is how do you budget, how do 

you maintain consistency in programs? There are years when we didn't receive payments, 

payments lagged behind, and for many of us we had to cut programs only to restore them later. 

Consistency of programming, we need a steady, consistent, reliable flow of impact aid funding, 

which we haven't had. 

Ms. Davis. And in your opinion, then, if it were an entitlement, that changes the way we see it 

here, would you be able to plan better if that were the case? 

Dr. Madden. I think we would absolutely be able to plan. 

Ms. Davis. Thank you very much. 

Chairman Castle. Thank you, Ms. Davis. Mr. Kirk. 

Mr. Kirk. Governor, thank you for your extraordinary courtesy to me as a non-subcommittee 

member. General Clark, naval aviation, as you go into combat to do three things: aviate, 

navigate, communicate. But if we mess up on impact aid, then we have to educate as well. We 

dramatically complicate military family lives. This is a program that involves a million kids, but 

there are 13 million children involved in the impact aid school districts. So it has an enormous 

impact on the country. 

 I wanted to ask you two things. One, we know from recruitment that it is the children of 

military families that are most likely to join the military. And so making sure that they are 

properly educated is key. We used to fully fund this program up through fiscal year 1969. Now 
19

it is only 46 percent. So making sure that we meet that is critical. So I wonder if could you first 

talk about how kids in military families are the ones joining the military. And secondly, without 

naming any names, Army officers know bases with good school districts and bad school districts.

And how does that influence the process of being assigned to a new base? And when you hear 

you are going to one of those other bases, what does that mean in your career in the military? 

General Clark. Well, with respect to the first question, and they are both excellent questions, 

there is no doubt that children in military families, because they have a connection with the 

military, are more likely to enlist or become officers. This is a fact. And so the educational 

value that the country puts on these children is repaid more directly in terms of their service. 

 I don't think that is necessarily a good thing, if I could editorialize. I would like to see all 

Americans participate in the burdens of national defense as well as enjoying the benefits from it. 

But it is simply a sociological fact that when you grown up in a military family, the prospect of 

joining the military is less intimidating, so you are more likely to find it a resource and avenue of 

opportunity.

 We all know as officers where there are schools, and not good schools, off base. Military 

personnel are dragged kicking and screaming to those locations that have poor schools that their 

children have to attend. I mean, that is just a simple fact, and it is not something that you can 

make up for by the quality of life on the post itself. It is not transferable into the child's 

education.

 And I don't know if I need to name some examples, but I have had my own examples in 

my career where it was an extraordinarily difficult decision to take my son from the northern 

Virginia school system, which is a very, very fine school system, out to another school system 

where, which is an assignment I volunteered for and it was simply a substandard school system. 

It desperately needed resources, and it was starved of those resources. Had impact aid been fully 

funded, that would have made a great deal of difference. 

 I think just about every parent in the service can tell you the same kind of story. There 

are great posts and great communities that really help the kids from the post to the schools, and 

they have great schools, and there are others where there aren't. And a lot of it is the fact 

whether the school district can really afford to take care of the military kids the way they need to 

be taken care of. 

Mr. Kirk. Just one last question. We have a situation, many in my district there, the Highland 

Park system, where it costs $10,000 to educate a kid, and impact aid pays $616 of it. It is quite a 

heavy burden on the Highland Park School System. And this quality, though, and I think the 

Chairman has heard of this as well, the Army is losing captains, a critical officer that fields a key 

unit that will be important in the coming conflict. 

 Have you seen a case where we have lost captains and majors, rather than go on to that 

next post where you have heard about a bad quality of life in school district? 
20

General Clark. Yes, I have. 

Mr. Kirk. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Castle. Thank you, Mr. Kirk. And Mr. Scott will be recognized next. I suggest if 

you want to ask General Clark, you should do that so he can be on his way shortly. 

Mr. Scott. I don't. Most of my questions will be to Mr. Jarrett. So, if someone has a question 

for General Clark. 

Chairman Castle. Does anyone here have a question for, and obviously you can't make them 

all for General Clark. He has about two or three more minutes. 

Mr. Scott. Thank you. I want to express my appreciation. 

Chairman Castle. We thank you for all you are doing for the country. We thank you for being 

here today, too. We know your time is valuable. 

General Clark. Thank you very much for the opportunity to testify, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Kirk. You are in some ways representing the customer here. And thank you for coming, 

General Clark. 

Chairman Castle. Mr. Scott. 

Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Madden's testimony went into the 

issue of the fact that you have the same costs for children, and their parents aren't contributing 

the same amount towards those expenses. I would like Mr. Jarrett to give us a little bit of 

background on how you fund your school system. In Virginia it is about half state, about half 

local; is that right? 

Mr. Jarrett. Yes, sir, it is. And in your county it is a little bit different than the other school 

divisions in the state because we are simply impacted by the military. 

Mr. Scott. Where do you get your local share? 

Mr. Jarrett. It comes from the local governing body, which in our case is the county board of 

supervisors. School divisions in Virginia do not have taxing authority, so we have to submit a 

budget to the governing body and they will approve that budget. 

Mr. Scott. Let's talk about where the local government gets its money. Most of it will be from 

the local property taxes. Do people in the military pay property taxes? 

Mr. Jarrett. No, sir. 
21

Mr. Scott. People who work for the military, do you have business, BPOs, the business and 

professional occupations? 

Mr. Jarrett. Yes, sir, we do. 

Mr. Scott. Do they pay that tax? 

Mr. Jarrett. No, sir. 

Mr. Scott. If you shop at the commissary you get a percentage of all the sales tax generated in 

your county, is that right? 

Mr. Jarrett. Yes. 

Mr. Scott. Do you get a tax, sales tax at the commissary? 

Mr. Jarrett. No, sir. 

Mr. Scott. If they worked at a local business, the business would be paying, or do you have 

property tax for the business machinery tax? 

Mr. Jarrett. Yes, as well as business license tax. 

Mr. Scott. Business license tax. Do people that work for the military pay that? 

Mr. Jarrett. No, sir. 

Mr. Scott. Are there other taxes that they don't pay? 

Mr. Jarrett. Personal property tax is another one in Virginia that some states do not have. 

Mr. Scott. The car tax. 

Mr. Jarrett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Scott. Paid a little bit of that. Do you expect a certain percentage of people to be working 

in businesses that are paying the business taxes, so even if they are living off base and paying 

property tax, the other taxes they are not paying; is that right? 

Mr. Jarrett. That is correct. 

Mr. Scott. And the general percentage that you lose because they work, many live and work on 

base, the loss that you incur because of the impact of the base, is that entire loss covered by 

impact aid? 
22

Mr. Jarrett. No, sir, it is not. 

Mr. Scott. Approximately what portion is covered? 

Mr. Jarrett. We estimated that the total cost is around $10.3 million, and we receive about $6.8 

million in impact aid. 

Mr. Scott. Do the children of the military have special problems? You mentioned that some 

with special problems elect the peninsula area because of some of the special services we 

provide. Are there special problems that occur with military students particularly, because they 

travel and are not as stable as other students? 

Mr. Jarrett. Yes, sir. Well there are two issues that your county deals with related to those 

students. And the first of those is the fact that Langley Air Force Base is a compassion 

assignment, so we tend to get children with special needs into the school district. Also, the fact 

that when conflicts occur there are usually counseling and guidance services that is provided to 

the military students as well. 

Mr. Scott. You mean military conflicts? 

Mr. Jarrett. Yes, sir, because one or both the parents may be gone. We have had situations 

where both the parents are in the military and both of them are sent out, so the children are left 

with someone there in the community, and we provide additional services in the school division 

for those students. 

Mr. Scott. If you have students who need counseling and they fail to get the counseling, what 

happens? 

Mr. Jarrett. Typically, I am not on the educational side of the house, but I will tell you from 

my experience that typically what happens is their academic performance will drop. 

Mr. Scott. Discipline problems. 

Mr. Jarrett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mrs. Biggert. [Presiding.] Thank you, Mr. Scott. The gentleman from Colorado, Mr. 

Tancredo.

Mr. Tancredo. Thank you, madam chairman. The problem I see here with impact aid is one 

that I think has come to our attention before in a different vein, but I am speaking specifically of 

IDEA where we attempted originally to do something good for somebody. 

 Absolutely appropriate, Mr. Scott's observations about the discrepancies in tax revenues 

that come to school districts as a result of having children whose parents are in the military. 
23

Totally appropriate for the federal government then to step in and try to make some sort of 

adjustment. But just like in IDEA, where we start out with a very good idea and a completely 

understandable and appropriate response to a particular problem, then things start to grow and 

other people try to get into the act. And we end up with in IDEA over-identifying kids, for 

whatever reason, to place them into special services, therefore diluting the amount of money 

available for the children who really and truly are in need of that particular service. 

 In this program, there is this peculiar category of civilian B kids where we have had them 

in, and we have had them out. Congress has taken them out at one point, put them back there at 

another. But there they are, they are not the children of people who serve in the military. They 

are not people who serve on any particular military base. They are just children of people who 

work for the federal government. 

 And because of that, and I don't know the numbers anymore, but it seems to me because 

of that addition, we are diluting the pool of resources that are available for the children who 

really and truly are supposed to get the money. 

 And I just wonder if anybody on the panel can give me a justification for civilian B kids 

or, if in your case, in anybody's case here, how many of them may in fact be in your school 

district? Do any of you have kids who are identified in that category, civilian B? Can anybody 

justify this category to us, why we still have it? I would be fascinated to know. 

Mr. Jarrett. Well, we have civilian Bs in our district. Some of the examples of those are 

people that are not in the military that may be working on military installations or on federal 

property. The Colonial National Historical Park; that is an example. And they are working on 

federal property. We are not receiving tax revenue for that property.

Mr. Tancredo. Well, postmen are working sometimes in post offices, and you are not receiving 

aid for that. Should we compensate for that? It just seems odd to me that we have expanded this 

program to include these kids where in fact it has never really been that way or should be that 

way, I guess. 

Mr. Jarrett. Yes, sir. Not to be argumentative, but post offices are eligible if the federal 

government owns the land. 

Mr. Tancredo. Right. I don't get it. I mean, what am I missing here? Is that the purpose? Was 

that the purpose of impact aid? And I will certainly yield to Mr. Scott. 

Mr. Scott. I would ask, Mr. Jarrett, you assume that everybody is going to have a certain 

amount of public property post offices and things, but the purpose of impact aid is when that 

impact is overwhelming. If your entire jurisdiction were post offices, you wouldn't be getting 

any real estate tax from those businesses at all. And it is a disproportionate impact that we are 

talking about. Is that right? 

Mr. Jarrett. Yes, sir. 
24

Mr. Scott. I thank the gentleman for yielding. 

Mr. Tancredo. I thank the gentleman for his comments. I have no other questions. 

Mrs. Biggert. The gentleman yields back. The gentlewoman from California, Mrs. Woolsey. 

Ms. Woolsey. Thank you. I apologize. I had a hearing earlier and so then I attended the first 

half of one hearing, then the second half of another. And I don't know anything about either one 

when I am finished, so I am sorry about that. I am sorry General Clark has left, because I wanted 

to ask him, was he a military brat? So I am going to ask all of you because it was going to be 

this, you know, the beginning of some important thoughts I have here. Were any of you children 

of military families? How about up here, any of us? Back here. There we go. 

My observation of military kids has been that they have come out worldlier, very selfassured, because they had to survive moving. They learned to survive, as compared to the kid 

who lived in the same house his entire life or her entire life, went to school, moved out of town 

maybe to go to college, and then had to learn how to take care of themselves any way 

whatsoever. But I know in this busy world we are in now, there is a gap that has to be filled. I 

mean, I am not saying we shouldn't have impact aid. I am just saying I think we have come up 

with some great adults that were raised in military families. 

 One of the things in any district is that we don't have military bases, but we have national 

parks. So we have competition between the park and the school board saying no more national 

park, don't expand that; we can't afford it because our school loses. One of their major 

complaints has been, and Congresswoman Davis talked about it, was the lack of forward funding 

for 1996, Mr. Jarrett? 

Mr. Jarrett. Yes, ma'am. I don't want to mislead you. We received payments prior to this year 

for 1996. But there is a payout period; they call it the lag time, in terms of paying out all the 

money that was appropriated in that year. So there was a final payment for 1996 this past year.

Ms. Woolsey. I hear you, but that is still nothing you can count on. Is the system any better, 

because the concerns my school superintendents that get impact aid talk to me about is that the 

application is not very straightforward. You can make one mistake, can sit in a pile for months 

on end, and then when you are supposed to be hearing back, what you hear is, whoops, there was 

a mistake; you have to start over. Is anything better in this regard? 

Mr. Vought. I don't have a complaint with the Department of Ed. And I have been doing this 

for a number of years. I think they have been highly efficient. They have a lot of schools that 

they serve. But any mistakes I have made, they have contacted me right away. They have been 

very efficient. 

Ms. Woolsey. I don't think I represent a bunch of whiners, but who knows? 

Mr. Vought. I don't know. 
25

Ms. Woolsey. That is good to hear. And do you want to respond to that, either of you? 

Dr. Madden. For federal properties districts, there are approximately 260 such districts across 

the country. And because of one problem with an application or another, with approximately 20 

school districts, payments to the remaining districts are being held up. And that is where we find 

ourselves right now. What we would like to see is a way to go ahead and make the payments, 

pay out whatever had been appropriate for a given year. If in a subsequent year a mistake is 

discovered and it has is to be made up for, make that up out of a subsequent appropriation that 

would help with the timeliness of payments. 

Ms. Woolsey. So, would you like to tell us why we don't forward fund these payments? What is 

it going to cost the federal government up front to get this started? I mean, it is all about money; 

it is not about punishing impact aid. 

Mr. Jarrett. Well, the appropriation that is on the table for fiscal year 2002 is about 1.3 billion, 

$1.1 billion. So you would be looking at possibly two years of payments there to forward fund 

that, the first year; and then the second year you would be working on in the budget. So you are 

really talking about roughly $2 million. 

Mr. Kildee. Would the gentle lady yield? We did that for BIA schools several years ago. I got 

aid to forward fund. They were not forward funded. So it took really two years of payment but 

it was the right thing to do, do the forward funding. It gives you a chance to plan and really to do 

much better educationally. But we did that for BIA schools when Sid Yates was chairman of the 

Appropriation subcommittee. 

Ms. Woolsey. So would you yield back to me to ask you a question? 

Mr. Kildee. It is your time. 

Ms. Woolsey. I don't have any time. Is there enough money in appropriations for this? 

Mr. Kildee. I believe there is enough money for education. Education dollars are an 

investment. I believe there is, yes. 

Ms. Woolsey. I don't mean in the world; I mean for impact aid. 

Mr. Kildee. Yes, there is enough money. 

Ms. Woolsey. Thank you. We will work on that. 

Mrs. Biggert. Thank you. The gentleman from Nebraska is recognized for five minutes. 

Mr. Osborne. Thank you for being here today and the first question I have is for Mr. Vought. I 

have a public school located on Native American land in the state of Nebraska, and I just 

wondered if you had any thoughts on, in your experience, what ways has impact aid helped you 

to serve the population of Native American children in your area and in what ways could 
26

Congress improve the program in this regard? 

Mr. Vought. I will go back to what Ms. Woolsey was saying about the funding. Here it is 

November. I am not really certain what I am going to get in impact aid this year. My fiscal year 

started July 1st. I have a pretty good guess; I can look at the numbers. Most of the impact aid 

monies that come into our district, or any of these districts, is used for salaries and fringe 

benefits; 88 percent of the average school district's costs are salaries and fringe. Okay. 

 But expanding the program for students on military bases and Indian reservations, there 

are unique needs. The military students are highly mobile. There are counseling programs 

needed. Indian reservations, you are looking at working on disenfranchisement that has 

occurred. In 1917, 1918 there was the Miriam report issued on the state of Indian education. In 

1993, the White House Conference on Indian Education basically said the same thing. So not 

much has changed in order to make a difference there, what is to be a quality program offered to 

the youth. And attitude needs to be taught. Education is attitude. It is not a test score. That is 

my theory. 

Mr. Osborne. So would you say that the lateness of impact aid payments have been a problem 

for you? I have heard sometimes that it is difficult to establish a budget because they are not 

arriving on time, or has this been corrected? 

Mr. Vought. We do short-term borrow, in our district, a little bit of cost because of the lateness 

of the payments. However, each district is a little bit unique. And throughout the country, the 

funding for each district is a little bit different. 

Mr. Osborne. Even though you may be able to borrow, do you know what amount you are 

going to receive? Is that something that is up in the air until you actually get it? 

Mr. Vought. We have estimates through the program. You can look at what the House 

numbers are and the Senate numbers and make a guess on what you are going to receive, but you 

don't know until the end of the year. 

Mr. Osborne. So, in other words, is this a major problem for you or not, any of you, in regard 

to the fact that you don't get the payments till you are into the school year? 

Dr. Madden. Yes, it is a problem for us. The kinds of student, that is, you may be referring to 

on Indian reservations, certainly have needs as other student populations do, and in certain 

classrooms a teacher may need an aid to assist in helping those youngsters. And we may have an 

idea of what might be appropriate, but what we don't have an idea on is what we are going to 

receive in any given year through appropriations. 

 That is what makes it so difficult. We may be able to provide aid one year, then have to 

release that aid in the following year, not knowing what kind of funding we are going to have.

That is what takes away the consistency that a quality program needs. It needs that kind of 

consistency in order to provide that. You need a reliable funding source. And again, we 

appreciate what we are receiving, but it is a problem that we can't rely on a given amount for any 
27

given year. 

Mr. Osborne. I have one last question for you. And I guess this is true of the federal 

government everywhere, there is a lot of paperwork. And I can imagine that probably applying 

for impact aid is sometimes time consuming. Do you see this as a process that has been 

streamlined, or do you feel it is overly cumbersome and burdensome at the present time? 

Mr. Jarrett. The county receives impact funding both for students and for land. And for the 

students you do account, and I personally don't feel like that is an onerous task to do. I think it 

probably needs to be done to get an accurate count of students you have that qualify. And the 

application for section 8803 is not that difficult to do. Section 8802, to qualify for section 8802 

as a first-year district is a pretty substantial burden. But once you are qualified and you have 

your records set up, ongoing applications are not that difficult to do. I don't know if the other 

panels feel differently. 

Mr. Vought. The computer has made things a lot easier for keeping track of students. So it is 

not over burdensome. 

Mr. Osborne. So what I hear you saying is the paperwork is not terribly onerous but the 

lateness of the payments are a problem to you. 

Mr. Vought. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Osborne. I don't know how we fix that, but maybe it is something this committee could 

look at. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Mrs. Biggert. Thank you. The gentleman from New York, Mr. Owens. 

Mr. Owens. I am always concerned about the very important item of school construction and 

infrastructure maintenance. I wonder if the dependence on impact aid for portions of your 

budget has been a great disadvantage to you in terms of funding, so that you have been forced to 

neglect physical maintenance and upkeep of your facilities and matters like that. 

 I notice in Dr. Pickles' statement, there was sort of a positive picture painted of it being 

increased and you being able to do some things, including billing a new school. Am I correct? 

And I wondered is that true of your situation because you primarily serve a military facility, and 

is the delay in funding lessened by the fact that the military facility is there, or do you get some 

help from military personnel in high places to make sure things move? I am asking two or three 

questions, I guess. 

Dr. Pickles. I think I have a very unique situation, and I don't think that most school districts 

that serve dependents of the military have had some of the opportunities that I have had in North 

Chicago; I will say that. But through the governor's, Illinois first program, we had 10.2 million 

seed money to begin construction, and I utilized impact aid funds, 8007, to match some of those 

funds.
28

Mr. Owens. You could do that; you have the flexibility? 

Dr. Pickles. That's correct. That made it very meaningful. That flexibility was there. We do 

have a school on federal property, so some of the Department of Defense funds kicked in there. 

We also had some of the funds to upgrade our science labs through particular bills. So I think 

my district was unique in that aspect, and we are extremely fortunate. But yes, that is a positive, 

definitely a positive, something that we couldn't have done without impact aid funds. 

 And we have overcrowded classrooms right now. Even though our district is only a 10-

mile radius, we spend more than 55 million on transportation, because there is no neighborhood 

school concept. We have to send them wherever there is an empty seat. So this is very critical, 

very critical for our district. 

Mr. Owens. Is the treatment of other schools, other categories like Indian schools different? Do 

we have a different set of standards being applied in the way impact aid is administered? 

Mr. Vought. In the law, there is a little bit of difference in the formula. It varies a little bit. But 

the program is written and it is equal for all the school districts. In the construction, though, 

there is a lot more need than there is funding. You know, as you look throughout the program, 

not only in the school districts in Wisconsin and Chicago, but in the Southwest there is need for 

construction dollars, and there is more need than there is money. 

Mr. Owens. You don't find any decrease in impact aid? In my area, we had a situation where 

certain areas have had decreases.

Mr. Vought. We have had an increase, too. 

Mr. Owens. An increase. So where you have impact aid that comes primarily from the military, 

one could expect the extra kind of help that they talked about. She talked about the Defense 

Department having additional funds. What are primarily government employees who are not on 

the defense, do you get some kind of liaison arrangement and ongoing relationship with the 

federal government that helps to move these things, so that you are never put in a situation where 

you have to wait inordinately long periods without receiving the full funding? 

Mr. Vought. No. 

Mr. Owens. No liaisons. 

Mr. Vought. No. We have the NAFES organization that communicates for us. But the funding 

comes out of the same office in the Department of Education. It is all written in law. 

Mr. Owens. I understand that.

Mr. Vought. I think that sometimes there are inserts into each law that benefit certain districts. 

If you go back in history, some districts have been put in there for political reasons or for reasons 
29

that there is a great need for them. But I see no problem. 

Mr. Owens. Thank you, madam chairman. 

Mrs. Biggert. Thank you, Mr. Owen. I think we have time for one more question from Mr. 

Kirk. You are recognized. 

Mr. Kirk. I want to thank Mr. Kildee for helping out in this hearing and also Pam Davidson for 

all her work on this. Dr. Pickles, you are responsible for the education of over 4,000 students. A 

third of them are military. But if we fail in our obligations in their impact aid it is not just the 

one-third military kids that are impacted, it is all 4,000. It is not just the 1 million federally 

impacted kids; it is all 13 million in this country that are impacted. 

 I think we need to guarantee the impact aid payments. That is why we introduced 1716.

We have begun the long battle of making sure that we guarantee the payments. I want to thank 

Mrs. Davis and people like Mr. McHugh and Mr. Saxton and Mr. Filner for helping out with the 

grade-A bill. I want to ask you to comment on three things: the effect of late payments on you, 

like which fiscal year books are still open at District 187; the number of people, full time, that 

you have just working on impact aid paperwork, because I would like to move to a system where 

the base commander simply certifies how many military kids you have and the payment is made, 

and if grade A passed, you would get an additional $4.5 million. What would you do with that 

money if you could spend on those three things? 

Dr. Pickles. In terms of the late payments, it does affect my district in particular but what we do 

is guesstimate. And that means that as we prepare for the upcoming year and as we prepare the 

budget, we are plugging in numbers that we don't really know whether they are the correct 

numbers or not. So we guesstimate and move on. 

 In terms of the paperwork and just having someone from the military installation endorse 

it and say that this is the number of students, in all honesty that is what we have been doing, and 

that has not been effective enough. So we are going back, rather than just the verification 

process, we are going back to the actual, what is it called survey process. We are going back to 

the survey process so that each and every student is accounted for. What we are finding is that 

the military really wants to see our records now because we are so efficient. With the 35 percent 

mobility rate, I guess they are facing the same thing in terms of, oh, I didn't know they moved 

out. So I appreciate that. We have been doing it that way, but we had to step up in terms of our 

efficiency.

 In terms of the additional dollars in the 21st century I think we have to begin to change 

our mindset and move away by what I call the two by four by six by nine by 12 system; and that 

is understanding that learning doesn't just take place between the front and the back of the 

textbook and in the four walls of the classroom. You just can't begin teaching a child at the age 

of six. They go to school for nine months and for 12 years. We have to begin at the extended 

learning opportunities. And by that I mean after school, extended day opportunities, Saturday 

school, and year-round schooling. If we are serious about closing that gap and improving 

student performance, then we have to be serious about keeping standards but then allowing 
30

students the opportunity to reach that standard by extended learning opportunities. That is what I 

would focus on with those additional dollars. 

Mr. Kirk. Any other member of the panel comment? 

Dr. Madden. I think those special programs Dr. Pickles just mentioned are ways to do a better 

job at schooling, and that costs money. The additional funding that any of us could receive could 

go toward sponsoring those kinds of programs. The gap exists and it exists in all schools, and we 

are all interested in closing that gap but not by moving the two ends toward the middle; by 

keeping our high performing students performing at a high level and raising all other students to 

that level. That calls for expertise, that calls for recruiting the best teachers available, having the 

most up-to-date technology and science labs. And I think it is in those kinds of programs, that 

were we receiving full funding for impact aid, that is what would make the difference. That is 

what would allow the Lemont Township's high school graduates to eventually go to work at 

Argonne National Laboratory. 

Mr. Kirk. I am going to be dedicated to moving 1716 or any successor along the models of 

IDEA and what we have done. I want to thank the National Association of Federally Impacted 

Schools, my partner in this battle. We have got a long way to go. I want to thank you and 

Chairman Biggert, I want to thank you and Mr. Kildee for all you have done to help us out. We 

will keep at it. Thank you. 

Mrs. Biggert. Thank you, Mr. Kirk. Are there any other questions? All right. I wish to thank 

the witnesses for their valuable time and testimony, and the members for their participation. If 

there is no further business, this subcommittee stands adjourned. 

 [Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 
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Table of Indexes

Chairman Castle, 1, 4, 5, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 20 

General Clark, 9, 13, 19, 20 

Mr. Jarrett, 5, 11, 14, 18, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 27 

Mr. Kildee, 3, 8, 14, 15, 16, 25 

Mr. Kirk, 4, 8, 18, 19, 20, 29, 30 

Mr. Madden, 10, 14, 16, 18, 25, 26, 30 

Mr. Osborne, 25, 26, 27 

Mr. Owens, 27, 28, 29 

Mr. Scott, 5, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 

Mr. Tancredo, 22, 23, 24 

Mr. Vought, 7, 14, 15, 16, 24, 26, 27, 28 

Mrs. Biggert, 7, 8, 9, 10, 16, 17, 22, 24, 25, 27, 29, 30 

Mrs. Davis, 17 

Ms. Pickles, 6, 17, 27, 28, 29 

Ms. Woolsey, 24, 25