### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1**  **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **FRAMEWORK OF THE RULEMAKING PROCESS TO IMPROVE ENERGY EFFICIENCY STANDARDS FOR**  **COMMERCIAL PACKAGED BOILERS + + + + +**  **PUBLIC MEETING + + + + +**  **TUESDAY OCTOBER 1, 2013** 

**+ + + + +**

**The Public Meeting convened in the Forrestal Building, Room 8E-089, 1000**  **Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, Facilitator, and**  **James Raba, Presiding Officer.**

**PRESENT DOUG BROOKMAN, Facilitator, Public**  **Solutions, Inc. CHUCK FOSTER, Edison Electric Institute**  **JAMES RABA, Department of Energy HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an**  **Energy Efficient Economy JIM SCHNORR, Burnham Holdings**  **FRANK STANONIK, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute**  **ERIC STAS, ESQ., Department of Energy PHILLIP W. STEPHENS, HTP - Advanced Heating**  **and Hot Water Systems ALSO PRESENT** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2**  **ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Department of Energy ADAM DARLINGTON, Navigant Consulting**  **MICHAEL DROESCH, Navigant Consulting DANIELLE FOX, Lawrence Berkeley National**  **Laboratory GEOFFREY HALLEY, American Boiler**  **Manufacturers Association*** **JEFF KLEISS, Lochinvar, LLC*** **ALEX LEKOV, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory**  ***Participating via telephone**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3**  **TABLE OF CONTENTS Welcome**  **Doug Brookman, Facilitator....... 5 Regulatory History**  **Jim Raba......................... 5 Introductions and Agenda**  **Review Doug Brookman, Facilitator....... 8**  **Rulemaking Process Overview Jim Raba......................... 13**  **Scope and Test Procedure Michael Droesch.................. 25**  **Market and Technology Assessment Danielle Fox..................... 42**  **Screening Analysis and Engineering Analysis**  **Michael Droesch.................. 57 Markups Analysis and Energy Use**  **Analysis Danielle Fox..................... 73**  **Life-Cycle Cost and Payback Period Analysis**  **Danielle Fox..................... 107 Shipments Analysis and National**  **Impact Analysis Danielle Fox..................... 128**  **Notice of Proposed Rulemaking Analysis**  **Danielle Fox..................... 138 Preliminary Manufacturer Impact**  **Analysis Michael Droesch.................. 144** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4**  **TABLE OF CONTENTS (Con't.) Notice of Proposed Rulemaking**  **Analysis (continued) Danielle Fox..................... 145**  **Participant Comments Facilitator Brookman............ 159** 

**Next Steps and Closing Remarks Jim Raba......................... 168** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  

### 2 **(9:02 a.m.)** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's** 

### 4 **start. Let's get going here.** 

### 5 **Good morning everyone and** 

### 6 **welcome. This is the U.S. Department of** 

### 7 **Energy's public meeting about the Framework** 

### 8 **of the Rulemaking Process to Improve Energy** 

### 9 **Efficiency Standards for Commercial Packaged** 

### 10 **Boilers. Today is Tuesday, October 1, 2013** 

### 11 **here in Washington, D.C. in the Forrestal** 

### 12 **Building. And the Department of Energy is** 

### 13 **conducting this meeting today, despite the** 

### 14 **shutdown of some other aspects of the federal** 

### 15 **government.** 

### 16 **So I am so glad to see you here** 

### 17 **and we are going to start off with welcoming** 

### 18 **remarks from Jim Raba this morning.** 

### 19 **MR. RABA: Well, good morning,** 

### 20 **everyone, and welcome, whether you are** 

### 21 **attending today's public meeting in person or** 

### 22 **via the webinar. This is the U.S. Department**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1 of Energy's public meeting about commercial**  

### 2 **packaged boilers.** 

### 3 **My name is Jim Raba and I am the** 

### 4 **project manager for commercial packaged** 

### 5 **boilers. Our presenters are Michael Droesch** 

### 6 **from Navigant Consulting and Danielle Fox** 

### 7 **from Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.** 

### 8 **We will address the rulemaking** 

### 9 **framework for commercial packaged boilers.** 

### 10 **The purpose of the framework documents is to** 

### 11 **describe the procedural and analytical** 

### 12 **approaches the Department of Energy** 

### 13 **anticipates using to evaluate the potential** 

### 14 **amended Energy Conservation Standards for** 

### 15 **commercial packaged boilers. It also** 

### 16 **introduces the upcoming commercial packaged** 

### 17 **boilers test procedure rulemaking and serves** 

### 18 **to solicit feedback from interested parties** 

### 19 **about the current test procedure.** 

### 20 **Commercial packaged boilers** 

### 21 **include electric, gas-fired, oil-fired, hot** 

### 22 **water, and steam boilers with input ratings**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 of 300,000 British thermal units per hour or**  

### 2 **more.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Keep** 

### 4 **going.** 

### 5 **MR. RABA: Back.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. I'm** 

### 7 **trying to find the right slide for you, Jim.** 

### 8 **MR. RABA: Slide 8, please.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Eight,** 

### 10 **okay.** 

### 11 **MR. RABA: We're there. Thank** 

### 12 **you.** 

### 13 **Now during today's public** 

### 14 **meeting, DOE will be seeking comment from** 

### 15 **interested parties on a variety of issues and** 

### 16 **discussing the next steps of the rulemaking.** 

### 17 **DOE welcomes comments in all aspects of the** 

### 18 **framework document. The presenters will** 

### 19 **pause to allow for discussion of certain** 

### 20 **issues indicated by these yellow boxes. So** 

### 21 **throughout, please feel free to offer oral or** 

### 22 **written comments, whether in person or via**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1 the webinar.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, thank** 

### 3 **you, Jim.** 

### 4 **I am going to return to some of** 

### 5 **these earlier slides. For those of you that** 

### 6 **are joining us via the webinar, I apologize.** 

### 7 **I have been scrolling around, trying to keep** 

### 8 **up with Jim's comments.** 

### 9 **By the way, my name is Doug** 

### 10 **Brookman from Public Solutions in Baltimore.** 

### 11 **We always start with introductions first** 

### 12 **thing.** 

### 13 **So we will start to my immediate** 

### 14 **left and you can get used to turning these** 

### 15 **microphones on and off. Please say your name** 

### 16 **and organizational affiliation.** 

### 17 **MR. FOSTER: Chuck Foster,** 

### 18 **representing the Edison Electric Institute.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 20 **MR. SCHNORR: Hi, Jim Schnorr,** 

### 21 **representing the Burnham Holdings Company.** 

### 22 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1 HTP.**  

### 2 **MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE General** 

### 3 **Counsel's Office.** 

### 4 **MR. RABA: Jim Raba, DOE.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey,** 

### 6 **you want to introduce yourself, please?** 

### 7 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And,** 

### 9 **please stand up.** 

### 10 **MR. DARLINGTON: Adam Darlington,** 

### 11 **Navigant.** 

### 12 **MR. DROESCH: Michael Droesch,** 

### 13 **Navigant.** 

### 14 **MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence** 

### 15 **Berkeley National Laboratory.** 

### 16 **MS. FOX: Danielle Fox, Lawrence** 

### 17 **Berkeley National Laboratory.** 

### 18 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong,** 

### 19 **DOE.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 21 **And do you wish to introduce yourself?** 

### 22 **MR. BONN: I'm Thomas Bonn, the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 court reporter trainee.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 3 **Thanks to all of you for joining** 

### 4 **us. There has been some confusion, I think,** 

### 5 **about whether the Department would hold this** 

### 6 **meeting today but I really appreciate those** 

### 7 **of you that were able to make it joining us.** 

### 8 **And those of you joining us via the web,** 

### 9 **especially we would like to welcome you. The** 

### 10 **Department of Energy is trying hard to make** 

### 11 **these meetings totally accessible to folks** 

### 12 **via the web.** 

### 13 **I am going to do a very brief** 

### 14 **agenda review. Immediately following this** 

### 15 **agenda review is an opportunity for anyone** 

### 16 **who wishes to make brief summary remarks here** 

### 17 **at the outset. Any issues that you think are** 

### 18 **important that you wish to raise at this** 

### 19 **point, please do so then.** 

### 20 **After that, we are going to hear** 

### 21 **some regulatory history.** 

### 22 **And moving on from there,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 rulemaking process overview. We will take a**  

### 2 **break mid-morning, around about 10:15 or** 

### 3 **10:30 or so. Following that, scope and test** 

### 4 **procedure and following that, market and** 

### 5 **technology assessment. And following on from** 

### 6 **there, screening assessment and engineering** 

### 7 **analysis and then markups analysis and energy** 

### 8 **use analysis, life-cycle cost and payback** 

### 9 **period analysis.** 

### 10 **We will break for lunch around** 

### 11 **about 12:30 or so. When we return from** 

### 12 **lunch, shipments analysis and national impact** 

### 13 **analysis, preliminary manufacturer impact** 

### 14 **analysis, notice of proposed rulemaking** 

### 15 **analysis. And then finally at the end of the** 

### 16 **day today, which we anticipate will be, not** 

### 17 **quite sure, maybe two o'clock, maybe three** 

### 18 **o'clock, next steps and closing remarks, yet** 

### 19 **another opportunity for anybody that wishes** 

### 20 **to to raise other issues that haven't been** 

### 21 **fully covered. So we want to make sure that** 

### 22 **everybody has a chance to say what they came**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 here to say today.**  

### 2 **That's the agenda for today.** 

### 3 **Questions and comments on the agenda? I see** 

### 4 **none. I would ask for your consideration.** 

### 5 **Please, as we go on today, simple courtesy, I** 

### 6 **believe, please speak one at a time. Please** 

### 7 **say your name for the record each time you** 

### 8 **speak. There will be a complete transcript** 

### 9 **of this meeting. You have gotten used to** 

### 10 **turning the microphones on and off here in** 

### 11 **the room. Those of you that are joining via** 

### 12 **the web, in the software you can raise your** 

### 13 **hand if you wish to speak. It has been** 

### 14 **working successfully that if you wish to** 

### 15 **speak, you can unmute your phone and we can** 

### 16 **hear you here in the room to ask your** 

### 17 **question. We will try and make that work** 

### 18 **today. Otherwise, please keep your phone on** 

### 19 **mute so that there is no feedback here in the** 

### 20 **room.** 

### 21 **If you could keep the focus here** 

### 22 **today, limit sidebar conversations, keep your**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 devices on silent mode, be concise, share the**  

### 2 **air time. I will be queuing individuals as** 

### 3 **best I can to speak as we go along today.** 

### 4 **All of you received a packet of** 

### 5 **information as you checked in this morning.** 

### 6 **That will be the basis for discussion. The** 

### 7 **presenters will be using these slides as a** 

### 8 **starting point for both presenting and** 

### 9 **answering your questions.** 

### 10 **So that is the plan for today.** 

### 11 **Questions and comments before we proceed?** 

### 12 **Okay.** 

### 13 **So then, let me invite anybody** 

### 14 **that wishes to to make opening remarks here** 

### 15 **at the outset. No opening remarks at the** 

### 16 **outset.** 

### 17 **Jack, do we have anybody online** 

### 18 **that wishes to? (Response: Nothing yet.)** 

### 19 **Okay. So then, let's proceed** 

### 20 **with the content. Jim Raba.** 

### 21 **MR. RABA: Thank you, Doug.** 

### 22 **We will begin first with the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 regulatory history of this rulemaking, where**  

### 2 **we are with commercial packaged boilers for** 

### 3 **standards and test procedures. Now here is a** 

### 4 **brief, in brief is the legislative basis for** 

### 5 **the Energy Conservation Standards for** 

### 6 **commercial industrial equipment, including** 

### 7 **commercial packaged boilers.** 

### 8 **The Energy Policy and** 

### 9 **Conservation Act of 1975, EPCA, provides DOE** 

### 10 **authority to regulate the energy efficiency** 

### 11 **of several types of equipment. The Energy** 

### 12 **Policy Act of 1992 established Energy** 

### 13 **Conservation Standards for commercial** 

### 14 **packaged boilers.** 

### 15 **The Energy Independence and** 

### 16 **Security Act of 2007 and the American Energy** 

### 17 **Manufacturing Technical Corrections Act both** 

### 18 **amended EPCA to require that every six years** 

### 19 **the Secretary of Energy publish either a** 

### 20 **notice if standards for product do not need** 

### 21 **to be amended or a notice of proposed** 

### 22 **rulemaking to include proposed new standards.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 Where the Energy Policy and**  

### 2 **Conservation Act, as amended, prescribes** 

### 3 **Energy Conservation Standards for certain** 

### 4 **commercial packaged boilers the Department of** 

### 5 **Energy is considering further amendments to** 

### 6 **those standards.** 

### 7 **Here are the Energy Conservation** 

### 8 **Standards for commercial packaged boilers.** 

### 9 **They are codified under subpart E of Title 10** 

### 10 **of the Code of Federal Regulations Part 431.** 

### 11 **And today's public meeting is the forefront** 

### 12 **of the rulemaking process to consider** 

### 13 **amending these standards. DOE intends to** 

### 14 **publish a final rule and the amended** 

### 15 **standards by July 2016.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I'm just** 

### 17 **going to get rid of that window. Thank you.** 

### 18 **MR. RABA: Another quick look at** 

### 19 **the standards for commercial packaged** 

### 20 **boilers. We move on. Jack, we** 

### 21 **are frozen.** 

### 22 **(Pause.)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 MR. RABA: So here is a brief**  

### 2 **overview of the rulemaking process and the** 

### 3 **steps that DOE will take. The Energy** 

### 4 **Conservation Standards process is pretty** 

### 5 **simple, albeit very thorough. The framework** 

### 6 **document, followed by the preliminary** 

### 7 **analysis, a notice of proposed rulemaking and** 

### 8 **then a final rule.** 

### 9 **In parallel, there is a test** 

### 10 **procedure rulemaking, which will be the** 

### 11 **notice of proposed rulemaking and,** 

### 12 **thereafter, a final rule. Now these are** 

### 13 **separate processes but they have integrated** 

### 14 **timelines and will proceed in parallel. And** 

### 15 **the test procedure rulemaking is shorter,** 

### 16 **about a year and a half, and the standards** 

### 17 **rulemaking will take about three years from** 

### 18 **start to finish.** 

### 19 **And notice also that as a note,** 

### 20 **Section 6313(a)6) of EPCA provides certain** 

### 21 **requirements for amending an existing** 

### 22 **standard. For example, when ASHRAE, IES**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 Standard 90.1 is amended, or second, by**  

### 2 **determination of the Secretary of Energy.** 

### 3 **Now in determining whether any** 

### 4 **new or amended standards are economically** 

### 5 **justified, DOE must assess whether the** 

### 6 **benefits of a proposed standard exceeds** 

### 7 **burdens by considering these seven factors.** 

### 8 **Now these include economic impact** 

### 9 **on manufacturers and consumers, projected** 

### 10 **energy savings, the impact on utility or** 

### 11 **performance, impact on competition, and an** 

### 12 **environmental impact assessment. You see the** 

### 13 **complete list on your screen.** 

### 14 **Now with each assessment, DOE** 

### 15 **performs several analyses to consider these** 

### 16 **factors and we will address each one today.** 

### 17 **Any questions, so far?** 

### 18 **(Pause.)** 

### 19 **MR. RABA: So today, this is the** 

### 20 **first stage of the rulemaking process for** 

### 21 **commercial packaged boilers, the framework** 

### 22 **document and hence, today's public meeting.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 The framework document provides an overview**  

### 2 **of the rulemaking process, including the** 

### 3 **procedural analytical approaches that the** 

### 4 **Department of Energy anticipates using to** 

### 5 **evaluate potential amended energy** 

### 6 **conservation standards.** 

### 7 **Following that, the preliminary** 

### 8 **analysis, the second stage of the rulemaking** 

### 9 **process that includes further examination of** 

### 10 **design options to increase efficiency,** 

### 11 **markups, life-cycle cost and payback period,** 

### 12 **national impacts, and impacts on** 

### 13 **manufacturers. A Federal Register notice of** 

### 14 **the public meeting are projected for July** 

### 15 **2014.** 

### 16 **Following the preliminary** 

### 17 **analysis and consideration of public** 

### 18 **comments, DOE will then issue a notice of** 

### 19 **proposed rulemaking to include proposed** 

### 20 **energy levels, efficiency levels and invite** 

### 21 **comments.** 

### 22 **And then the final rule is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 published after careful consideration of all**  

### 2 **the analysis, data, information, and public** 

### 3 **comments. Here, publication of the final** 

### 4 **rule in the Federal Register is estimated to** 

### 5 **be July 2016, which would roughly correspond** 

### 6 **to the effective date and, thereafter, the** 

### 7 **compliance date is projected to be July 2019.** 

### 8 **So in concert with the rulemaking** 

### 9 **process of Energy Efficiency Standards for** 

### 10 **commercial packaged boilers, DOE will be** 

### 11 **examining the current test procedures under** 

### 12 **Subpart E of Title 10 of the Code of Federal** 

### 13 **Regulations Part 431 and the need for updates** 

### 14 **or revisions. DOE encourages your comments** 

### 15 **on the test procedures.** 

### 16 **MR. SACHS: Now or --** 

### 17 **MR. RABA: Today, yes. This will** 

### 18 **be part in our presentations. Later on you** 

### 19 **will hear more about them. If you would like** 

### 20 **to offer a comment at this time, that is** 

### 21 **fine, too.** 

### 22 **MR. SACHS: Thank you, Jim. This**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 is Harvey Sachs with ACEEE.**  

### 2 **And just sort of expressing a** 

### 3 **concern that it is not clear whether there** 

### 4 **will be opportunities to review things like** 

### 5 **the 15-year effort at 155(P) but I think many** 

### 6 **of us in the advocacy community and many of** 

### 7 **the design engineers are very concerned that** 

### 8 **the present test method with its focus on** 

### 9 **steady state, 100 degree temperature rise and** 

### 10 **things like this, is an inadequate way to** 

### 11 **characterize modern boilers. And we hope** 

### 12 **that DOE is planning some extensive work on** 

### 13 **what an appropriate test method would look** 

### 14 **like going forward, since ASHRAE has been** 

### 15 **unable to complete one.** 

### 16 **Thank you.** 

### 17 **MR. RABA: Good point, Harvey.** 

### 18 **Thank you very much. It is a good point. We** 

### 19 **will study that very carefully. Thank you.** 

### 20 **And further comments at this time or later on** 

### 21 **as we proceed in the presentations today will** 

### 22 **be very welcome.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 So from the proposed rule for**  

### 2 **test procedures, we would proceed into a** 

### 3 **final rule at some point. Similar to the** 

### 4 **efficiency standards rulemaking process,** 

### 5 **there is a test procedures final rule stage** 

### 6 **where DOE considers all the comments** 

### 7 **received, makes any appropriate revisions to** 

### 8 **the test procedure and establishes the** 

### 9 **effective date for the rulemaking.** 

### 10 **For example, say 30 days after** 

### 11 **publication of a final rule in the Federal** 

### 12 **Register, the effective date starts the clock** 

### 13 **running to a compliance date that is** 

### 14 **compatible with the standards rulemaking.** 

### 15 **Now a planned publication date** 

### 16 **for the test procedures final rule is July** 

### 17 **2015. And projected compliance date for the** 

### 18 **standards is July 2019.** 

### 19 **So here is a time line for** 

### 20 **commercial packaged boilers standards and** 

### 21 **test procedures. The preliminary standards** 

### 22 **analysis public meeting is schedule for some**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 time next summer with the proposed rule**  

### 2 **public meeting the following summer. The** 

### 3 **test procedure proposed rule will be** 

### 4 **published in the fall of 2014 and the final** 

### 5 **rule in the summer of 2015.** 

### 6 **This all leads to publication of** 

### 7 **the Energy Conservation Standards final rule** 

### 8 **July 2016.** 

### 9 **At the end of each of the** 

### 10 **rulemaking stages shown, there is an** 

### 11 **opportunity for public comment through** 

### 12 **meetings such as this one, as well as by** 

### 13 **written comment. Comments about today's** 

### 14 **rulemaking framework are due no later than** 

### 15 **October 18th.** 

### 16 **Questions about the time line** 

### 17 **schedule projection?** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey** 

### 19 **Sachs.** 

### 20 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 21 **Jim, as I think about the test** 

### 22 **procedure notice of proposed rulemaking, as**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 well as the preliminary analysis, the**  

### 2 **underlying question is as you are looking at** 

### 3 **trial standard levels and things like this,** 

### 4 **will your analysis be based on** 

### 5 **straightforward application of today's test** 

### 6 **method or will you being doing either a bin** 

### 7 **analysis or better yet hourly analysis so we** 

### 8 **are really looking at the energy of different** 

### 9 **types of boilers, energy consumption over the** 

### 10 **annual cycle of boilers. This is not a** 

### 11 **question of whether we are using something** 

### 12 **analogous to SEER in the ultimate test method** 

### 13 **but a question of how you are calculating the** 

### 14 **energy savings at different trial standard** 

### 15 **levels.** 

### 16 **MR. RABA: It's a good question,** 

### 17 **Harvey. Thank you.** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: But I want an answer.** 

### 19 **MR. RABA: I don't have an answer** 

### 20 **now. That is why we want your comments and** 

### 21 **your analyses.** 

### 22 **Consider this, though. For now**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 we just have the known commodity of the test**  

### 2 **procedure that is in the regulations. And we** 

### 3 **do hope and expect really comments back from** 

### 4 **you folks, the public and those either in the** 

### 5 **room or on the webinar to give us your** 

### 6 **thoughts about the test procedure. Is it** 

### 7 **adequate? Is it sufficient? Does it address** 

### 8 **your concerns, the concerns of maybe the** 

### 9 **manufacturers, the users, and are the metrics** 

### 10 **going to be equivalent, the equivalent** 

### 11 **metrics? I think it would be best, if a new** 

### 12 **test procedure is considered, that it is** 

### 13 **transferrable without any loss of efficiency** 

### 14 **or shall we say re-testing that is** 

### 15 **unnecessary. The point there is this is** 

### 16 **where this process will, from the framework** 

### 17 **document on, invite your comments about the** 

### 18 **test procedure where you think it could be** 

### 19 **going, the merits of that, too. And would** 

### 20 **welcome that. So we need that common input** 

### 21 **for that, too.** 

### 22 **Any other comments to fill it in,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 too, from the team or from the -- okay, none**  

### 2 **seen.** 

### 3 **So, does that help you, Harvey?** 

### 4 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 5 **Does it help you all see what people are** 

### 6 **looking for?** 

### 7 **MR. RABA: It helps a lot.** 

### 8 **MR. SACHS: Thank you.** 

### 9 **MR. RABA: Yes, sir.** 

### 10 **Further comments?** 

### 11 **(Pause.)** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So then we** 

### 13 **are going to proceed as listed in the agenda.** 

### 14 **And we are going to hear next about scope and** 

### 15 **test procedures and we are going to hear from** 

### 16 **Michael Droesch, Navigant Consulting.** 

### 17 **MR. DROESCH: DOE plans to** 

### 18 **maintain the existing scope of coverage for** 

### 19 **commercial packaged boilers. Throughout the** 

### 20 **course of the rulemaking, DOE will consider** 

### 21 **developing standards for energy consumption** 

### 22 **of commercial packaged boilers, when in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 standby mode or off mode or developing**  

### 2 **standards for electric commercial packaged** 

### 3 **boilers. However, the team will need to** 

### 4 **review stakeholder comments and perform** 

### 5 **additional analysis regarding the potential** 

### 6 **benefits and impacts of additional standards** 

### 7 **before making a final decision on these** 

### 8 **issues.** 

### 9 **In August, DOE issued a Notice of** 

### 10 **Proposed Determination to clarify its** 

### 11 **authority to regulate natural draft** 

### 12 **commercial packaged boilers. The coverage** 

### 13 **determination has not changed the scope of** 

### 14 **DOE's coverage of commercial packaged** 

### 15 **boilers. However, as a part of this** 

### 16 **rulemaking, the team will consider how best** 

### 17 **to regulate natural draft commercial packaged** 

### 18 **boilers going forward.** 

### 19 **DOE welcomes comments on the** 

### 20 **items presented here, including any general** 

### 21 **comments on the proposed scope of coverage.** 

### 22 **In particular in Items 2-2 and 2-3, DOE is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 interested in receiving comments on the need**  

### 2 **to or benefit of developing additional** 

### 3 **efficiency standards for commercial packaged** 

### 4 **boilers, such as standards for standby or off** 

### 5 **mode or standards for electric boilers.** 

### 6 **In Item 2-4, DOE is interested in** 

### 7 **receiving any feedback on whether there are** 

### 8 **any size or capacity limits above which it is** 

### 9 **infeasible to conduct efficiency testing on** 

### 10 **commercial packaged boilers using the current** 

### 11 **test procedure.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: There you** 

### 13 **see the comment boxes. Comments at this** 

### 14 **point? Harvey Sachs.** 

### 15 **MR. SACHS: With respect to item** 

### 16 **-- Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. With respect to Item** 

### 17 **2-3, in your analyses, do you propose to** 

### 18 **provide some information on your estimates of** 

### 19 **the fraction of annual energy used that would** 

### 20 **be associated with standby and off mode, as** 

### 21 **well as actual values that might be** 

### 22 **reasonable for limits on these? It is not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 clear to me that 15 watts of standby or off**  

### 2 **mode on a 2,000,000 BTU boiler is really** 

### 3 **something I want to spend much time on but I** 

### 4 **hope you will.** 

### 5 **MR. DROESCH: Yes, we appreciate** 

### 6 **the comment. And that is exactly what we** 

### 7 **plan to look into as we move forward with the** 

### 8 **preliminary analysis and we will use that as** 

### 9 **a basis for our decision.** 

### 10 **MR. SACHS: Thank you.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes,** 

### 12 **Phillip.** 

### 13 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 14 **HTP.** 

### 15 **One of the items that we had a** 

### 16 **lot of conversation with in the recent ASRAC** 

### 17 **meetings ASRAC meetings were the delineations** 

### 18 **of the ranges of input for commercial** 

### 19 **boilers. There were a lot of different** 

### 20 **proposals. One of the more common one was a** 

### 21 **three-tiered approach where anything from** 

### 22 **300,000 to 2.5 million would be considered**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 small. And then 2.5 to 5.0 medium and larger**  

### 2 **than 5,000,000 BTUs would be large. There is** 

### 3 **a lot of rationale that went behind that. As** 

### 4 **far as the labs, most everyone could test up** 

### 5 **to 2.5, 2.0 to 2.5. But once you got above** 

### 6 **5,000,000 BTUs, it was very difficult to find** 

### 7 **someone that could test outside of the** 

### 8 **manufacturers. Not all manufacturers have** 

### 9 **that capability either. But there were a** 

### 10 **number of different viewpoints on that.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 12 **Additional comments on Item 2-1,** 

### 13 **2-2, 2-3, and 2-4?** 

### 14 **MR. HALLEY: This is Geoff Halley** 

### 15 **with ABMA. And I think for Item 2-3, I think** 

### 16 **we don't want to lose sight of the fact that** 

### 17 **there could be some potential safety issues** 

### 18 **when you look at standby mode losses,** 

### 19 **particularly if you start putting 100 percent** 

### 20 **shutoff stack dampers in a system. I think** 

### 21 **there are probably some better options with** 

### 22 **putting 100 percent shutoff damper on the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1 inlet side, particular if you get to a**  

### 2 **situation where you write off erroneously and** 

### 3 **get a combustion explosion. The stack damper** 

### 4 **can increase the amount of damage done.** 

### 5 **Also, I would like to sort of go** 

### 6 **along with a lot of what Phillip said earlier** 

### 7 **that there are some real problems in testing** 

### 8 **larger units. And the fact that there is no** 

### 9 **sort of upper limit on the capacity of the** 

### 10 **commercial boilers could be a real problem** 

### 11 **long-term.** 

### 12 **As he said, there are no easy** 

### 13 **methods of testing larger units. They are** 

### 14 **much more expensive than the numbers that we** 

### 15 **have heard for testing this morning. And I** 

### 16 **think that whole system needs to be reviewed.** 

### 17 **I think the test procedure currently** 

### 18 **available looks to me as though it has its** 

### 19 **foundations in residential units way back in** 

### 20 **probably the '50s.** 

### 21 **I think the pressures need to be** 

### 22 **looked at, the temperatures need to be looked**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 at. Because they may be suitable for certain**  

### 2 **boilers but they certainly are not acceptable** 

### 3 **for some of the larger units. For example, a** 

### 4 **fire-tube boiler, you cannot operate it** 

### 5 **successfully at 2 psi. It has got to be up** 

### 6 **around 10 or 12 psi in order to get good** 

### 7 **steam quality. There are plenty of things** 

### 8 **and I will document these by the 18th of** 

### 9 **October but I think that the test procedure** 

### 10 **is in need of some serious updating.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 12 **thank you very much.** 

### 13 **MR. HALLEY: I will rest my** 

### 14 **comments on that point for now.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And as you** 

### 16 **have noted, the Department would like that** 

### 17 **all of that in detailed comment in written** 

### 18 **form.** 

### 19 **MR. HALLEY: Right.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 21 **Yes, Phillip.** 

### 22 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 HTP. I was wondering, is the Department**  

### 2 **considering expanding the scope of the same** 

### 3 **activity for residential boilers? I believe** 

### 4 **we use IEC 62301 for determining the off-mode** 

### 5 **and standby power consumption for residential** 

### 6 **boilers. Are you just looking at expanding** 

### 7 **that same test method to the larger boilers?** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ashley** 

### 9 **Armstrong.** 

### 10 **MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley** 

### 11 **from DOE. So, generally as a basis we start** 

### 12 **with 62301 because the statute points us that** 

### 13 **way for residential. And I think where it** 

### 14 **makes sense, we like to be consistent with** 

### 15 **our methods at the Department, but we don't** 

### 16 **necessarily have to do that for commercial** 

### 17 **packaged boilers. So if there is a better** 

### 18 **way to do things or a different way to do** 

### 19 **things, we would consider that as part of** 

### 20 **this.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 22 **Ashley.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 Other comments here at this**  

### 2 **juncture? Nothing additional. Okay.** 

### 3 **MR. DROESCH: DOE plans to** 

### 4 **conduct a test procedure rulemaking in** 

### 5 **parallel with the ongoing energy conservation** 

### 6 **standards rulemaking. DOE published the last** 

### 7 **final rule regarding commercial packaged** 

### 8 **boilers test procedures in July of 2009,** 

### 9 **which updated the test procedure to** 

### 10 **incorporate by reference the latest revision** 

### 11 **of the Hydronics Institute Standard BTS-2000** 

### 12 **Revision 06.07 of the Method to Determine** 

### 13 **Efficiency of Commercial Space Heating** 

### 14 **Boilers.** 

### 15 **Recently, DOE has received** 

### 16 **comments that some manufacturers have** 

### 17 **experienced difficulties testing certain** 

### 18 **basic models in accordance with the** 

### 19 **requirements of BTS-2000. As a part of the** 

### 20 **test procedure rulemaking, DOE is actively** 

### 21 **reviewing these comments and is evaluating** 

### 22 **the need for revisions or updates to the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1 current DOE test procedure.**  

### 2 **The current test procedure uses** 

### 3 **thermal efficiency as the standard efficiency** 

### 4 **measure for the majority of the equipment** 

### 5 **classes, although large hot water, gas, and** 

### 6 **oil-fired boilers use combustion efficiency** 

### 7 **both as measured by BTS-2000.** 

### 8 **DOE welcomes comments on the** 

### 9 **commercial packaged boiler test procedure** 

### 10 **overall. In particular, Items 3-2 and 3-3** 

### 11 **are both concerned with whether there are any** 

### 12 **components of the test procedure that make it** 

### 13 **burdensome or unfeasible to conduct testing** 

### 14 **on some models.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip.** 

### 16 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 17 **HTP.** 

### 18 **We do recognize there are issues** 

### 19 **with the current BTS-2000. Within AHRI, I** 

### 20 **have volunteered to chair the update of the** 

### 21 **BTS-2000 and we are actively soliciting** 

### 22 **information from manufacturers for the issues**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 they have so that we can address the**  

### 2 **situation.** 

### 3 **I was very interested to learn of** 

### 4 **the test procedure that you are planning to** 

### 5 **update. I am assuming that this may entirely** 

### 6 **be something completely different from BTS** 

### 7 **2000. If so, could you elaborate on that?** 

### 8 **MR. DROESCH: Thank you. We** 

### 9 **actually haven't made a decision yet on** 

### 10 **whether or not this will be an update or** 

### 11 **something completely different from BTS-2000** 

### 12 **but we would appreciate any information that** 

### 13 **you can provide regarding whether BTS-2000 is** 

### 14 **still appropriate or whether there may be an** 

### 15 **alternative test procedure that is more** 

### 16 **appropriate.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey** 

### 18 **Sachs.** 

### 19 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs,** 

### 20 **ACEEE.** 

### 21 **On slide 26, I am very concerned** 

### 22 **about the language in the tertiary bullet at**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 the top, which says in the current**  

### 2 **rulemaking, DOE plans to analyze the** 

### 3 **alternative test procedures that are** 

### 4 **available and widely accepted within the** 

### 5 **industry.** 

### 6 **I fear that that may not be** 

### 7 **adequate. I certainly feel strongly that** 

### 8 **BTS-2000 is essentially irrelevant for design** 

### 9 **engineers who are trying to compare** 

### 10 **efficiencies with alternative products in the** 

### 11 **market in the range of sizes commonly used in** 

### 12 **buildings. It may or may not have been a** 

### 13 **good water heater test with 100 degree** 

### 14 **temperature rise minimum but it tells you** 

### 15 **nothing about performance of a boiler with a** 

### 16 **20 degree drop or something like that between** 

### 17 **supply and return at part-load conditions.** 

### 18 **It is my belief, my hypothesis,** 

### 19 **which is open for refutation, that unless we** 

### 20 **get to at least an additional part-load** 

### 21 **measure at the lowest supply and return** 

### 22 **temperatures a boiler can stand, we are not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 going to be meeting the objectives of the**  

### 2 **minimum information required for the client,** 

### 3 **who in this case is the design engineer.** 

### 4 **End of rant.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip.** 

### 6 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 7 **HTP.** 

### 8 **I would like to amend what I said** 

### 9 **earlier. We are not just soliciting feedback** 

### 10 **from manufacturers. We are also soliciting** 

### 11 **feedback from advocacy groups.** 

### 12 **MR. SACHS: You didn't invite me,** 

### 13 **yet.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ashley** 

### 15 **Armstrong.** 

### 16 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you tell me** 

### 17 **your timing for that? Not just for revising,** 

### 18 **for finishing the process.** 

### 19 **MR. STEPHENS: We haven't got** 

### 20 **that far, yet. We have another meeting week** 

### 21 **after next, where we are planning to pull all** 

### 22 **the information we have back together.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1 I would like to encourage all**  

### 2 **manufacturers on the list to contact -- I am** 

### 3 **going to throw him under the bus -- Aykut at** 

### 4 **AHRI and forward their list of concerns to** 

### 5 **him so that we can achieve that time line and** 

### 6 **that goal.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Say it** 

### 8 **again, Phillip. Who at AHRI?** 

### 9 **MR. STEPHENS: Aykut Yilmaz.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 11 **MR. STEPHENS: Amazingly enough,** 

### 12 **it is spelled just like it sounds.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 14 **Harvey, you said a moment ago, I believe you** 

### 15 **said if I heard you correctly, that ASHRAE** 

### 16 **was working on this and they hadn't come to a** 

### 17 **conclusion. Is that correct?** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: Under the leadership** 

### 19 **of Martha Hewitt at ASHRAE, I spent about 15** 

### 20 **years trying to develop what amounted to a** 

### 21 **performance map for commercial boilers. It** 

### 22 **was widely regarded by manufacturers as**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1 requiring far more information than they**  

### 2 **could feasibly provide. So that seems to be** 

### 3 **in hiatus now. That might be a lovely thing** 

### 4 **to get to eventually. It might not be. It** 

### 5 **might not be worth it.** 

### 6 **What is very clear to me is that** 

### 7 **unless working within the legal constraints** 

### 8 **we can find a way to provide a part-load** 

### 9 **metric, we are not serving the client at all.** 

### 10 **And just to elaborate for a second, I spent** 

### 11 **parts of about two years trying to help the** 

### 12 **leading incentives organization discontinue** 

### 13 **incentives for non-condensing boilers because** 

### 14 **the performance gap between a non-condensing** 

### 15 **and a condensing on BTS-2000 is typically ten** 

### 16 **points.** 

### 17 **Durkin and others have certainly** 

### 18 **showed empirically with field data that well** 

### 19 **designed non-condensing system -- I'm sorry.** 

### 20 **A well-designed condensing system in a real** 

### 21 **building is likely to obtain 40 percent** 

### 22 **savings by using low temperature circulation.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1 Whether or not that is feasible in all**  

### 2 **buildings is not the point. And I am** 

### 3 **certainly not asking, at this point, for a** 

### 4 **ban on non-condensing boilers across the** 

### 5 **board. But it is absolutely imperative that** 

### 6 **those who are doing incentive programs and** 

### 7 **the designers who are doing commercial** 

### 8 **buildings have information they can use, not** 

### 9 **only for their designs but to help them** 

### 10 **explain to owners why the performance** 

### 11 **difference is likely to be highly cost** 

### 12 **effective for their clients. And BTS-2000** 

### 13 **does a remarkably good job, in my opinion, of** 

### 14 **obscuring that information.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 16 **thank you.** 

### 17 **Comment? No, not at this time.** 

### 18 **Okay. Final comments on -- do they address** 

### 19 **all of these items? Did you hit 3-4?** 

### 20 **MR. DROESCH: We haven't** 

### 21 **actually. Yes, thank you for your comments** 

### 22 **on BTS-2000.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1 In addition, in Item 3-4, DOE is**  

### 2 **interested in receiving stakeholder feedback** 

### 3 **on any alternative industry test methods and** 

### 4 **how these methods may improve or not improve** 

### 5 **upon the current DOE standard.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip,** 

### 7 **do you want to say anything additional in** 

### 8 **response to 3-4?** 

### 9 **MR. STEPHENS: It would take a** 

### 10 **few minutes.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, okay.** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens.** 

### 13 **I have a lot of detail to go into. I think** 

### 14 **it would be more appropriate if I were to** 

### 15 **just submit it directly to the Department.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 17 **thank you. Will that be from your working** 

### 18 **group or you personally? Who will it be** 

### 19 **from?** 

### 20 **MR. STEPHENS: From HTP,** 

### 21 **originally and then AHRI will, I am sure,** 

### 22 **also provide commentary.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Great,**  

### 2 **thank you. Okay, please proceed.** 

### 3 **MR. DROESCH: Next, I will hand** 

### 4 **it over to Danielle Fox from LBNL to discuss** 

### 5 **our approach for the preliminary analysis.** 

### 6 **MS. FOX: Good morning. My name** 

### 7 **is Danielle Fox from the Lawrence Berkeley** 

### 8 **National Laboratory.** 

### 9 **So starting today with the** 

### 10 **preliminary analysis, we will discuss each of** 

### 11 **the items listed here, starting with the** 

### 12 **market and technology assessment.** 

### 13 **So the purpose of the market and** 

### 14 **technology assessment is to characterize the** 

### 15 **boiler market, the industry, and available** 

### 16 **measure to improve efficiency.** 

### 17 **The method includes identifying** 

### 18 **and characterizing the manufacturers of** 

### 19 **commercial packaged boilers, estimating** 

### 20 **historical shipments and trends in the** 

### 21 **market, identifying regulatory and non** 

### 22 **regulatory initiatives intended to improve**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1 efficiency of the covered boiler equipment,**  

### 2 **characterize equipment currently available on** 

### 3 **the market and to identify technology options** 

### 4 **that could improve efficiency.** 

### 5 **So one main task of the market** 

### 6 **and technology assessment is to establish** 

### 7 **equipment classes. DOE may divide covered** 

### 8 **equipment into equipment classes by the type** 

### 9 **of energy used; the capacity of the** 

### 10 **equipment; or any other performance-related** 

### 11 **feature that justifies different standard** 

### 12 **levels.** 

### 13 **At this time, DOE plans to** 

### 14 **maintain all commercial packaged boiler** 

### 15 **equipment classes and may consider equipment** 

### 16 **classes for electric commercial packaged** 

### 17 **boilers.** 

### 18 **And as commented earlier in the** 

### 19 **August proposed determination, DOE discusses** 

### 20 **the natural draft boilers.** 

### 21 **Okay. So, starting with Item 5-** 

### 22 **1, DOE welcomes data that would contribute to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1 its market assessment.**  

### 2 **Item 5-2, DOE welcomes** 

### 3 **information about interested parties for this** 

### 4 **rulemaking, which may include manufacturers,** 

### 5 **trade associations, and other advocacy** 

### 6 **organizations.** 

### 7 **And Item 5-3, DOE welcomes** 

### 8 **comment on its considered equipment classes** 

### 9 **and whether there are any other performance** 

### 10 **related features that it should consider in** 

### 11 **this rulemaking.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey** 

### 13 **Sachs.** 

### 14 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs** 

### 15 **from ACEEE. And Chuck Foster may agree with** 

### 16 **me on this and that would be historic. But** 

### 17 **help me understand how I can make an** 

### 18 **inefficient electric boiler.** 

### 19 **MS. FOX: I think right now it is** 

### 20 **just under consideration of whether to** 

### 21 **reserve this, especially if standby and off** 

### 22 **mode is pursued. But yes, that --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1 MR. SACHS: I mean if I have a 60**  

### 2 **kw boiler, can I make one that is only 90** 

### 3 **percent efficient without baking the entire** 

### 4 **enclosure it is in?** 

### 5 **MS. FOX: Right.** 

### 6 **MR. SACHS: I think that is the** 

### 7 **first question.** 

### 8 **MS. FOX: So yes, we welcome** 

### 9 **comment on whether, like I said, whether or** 

### 10 **not to pursue standards for electric boilers.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Chuck** 

### 12 **Foster.** 

### 13 **MR. FOSTER: Chuck Foster, EEI.** 

### 14 **Maybe it is historic but I think I do agree** 

### 15 **with the direction Harvey was taking. And I** 

### 16 **would only say that at a time of scarce** 

### 17 **resources, to be putting analytical and other** 

### 18 **tools into trying to figure out whether we** 

### 19 **can split a hair would not be productive in** 

### 20 **my opinion.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 22 **thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1 MS. FOX: Thank you.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Other** 

### 3 **comments on these three comment boxes?** 

### 4 **Phillip.** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 6 **HTP.** 

### 7 **We would like to encourage the** 

### 8 **Department to follow through with the small,** 

### 9 **medium and large categories in this aspect as** 

### 10 **well.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 12 **Any other performance related features as** 

### 13 **queued in Item 5-3?** 

### 14 **Okay, I see none.** 

### 15 **MS. FOX: Okay, thank you.** 

### 16 **So next we have the technology** 

### 17 **options to improve efficiency and this is** 

### 18 **done in the technology assessment portion of** 

### 19 **the market and technology assessment.** 

### 20 **So here DOE will characterize** 

### 21 **available technologies on the market to** 

### 22 **improve boiler efficiency. And from the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1 framework document we have the boiler**  

### 2 **technologies were grouped into three areas:** 

### 3 **technology options to improve combustion or** 

### 4 **thermal efficiency; options available to** 

### 5 **reduce standby and off mode energy** 

### 6 **consumption; and options to reduce seasonal** 

### 7 **boiler energy consumption.** 

### 8 **So starting with Table 5, we** 

### 9 **summarize the technologies that would be** 

### 10 **available or that are available to improve** 

### 11 **combustion or thermal efficiency. And these** 

### 12 **include jacket insulation, condensing boilers** 

### 13 **and other heat exchanger improvements,** 

### 14 **improved burner technology, burner derating,** 

### 15 **combustion air preheaters, economizers, and** 

### 16 **the use of integrated, high-efficiency steam** 

### 17 **boilers.** 

### 18 **Table 6 summarizes the technology** 

### 19 **options to reduce standby and off mode energy** 

### 20 **consumption, which include toroidal** 

### 21 **transformers, control relay for models with** 

### 22 **brushless permanent magnet motors, and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1 switching mode power supplies.**  

### 2 **And then for Table 7, DOE is** 

### 3 **aware of a number of technology options that** 

### 4 **would reduce overall fuel consumption by** 

### 5 **improving the seasonal boiler efficiency.** 

### 6 **DOE would like to better understand whether** 

### 7 **any of these technologies should be** 

### 8 **considered in this rulemaking and how** 

### 9 **efficiency improvements will be captured in a** 

### 10 **test procedure. And these technologies** 

### 11 **include modulating burners, electric** 

### 12 **ignition, dampers, temperature reset** 

### 13 **controls, thermal post-purge controls, and** 

### 14 **delayed-action oil pump solenoid valves.** 

### 15 **Then listed in Item 5-4, DOE** 

### 16 **welcomes comment on the technology options** 

### 17 **identified and any additional input on the** 

### 18 **technology options that might be missing.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip.** 

### 20 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 21 **HTP. We have a list of things we would like** 

### 22 **to indicate to the Department.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1 The first is that in addition to**  

### 2 **achieving higher combustion efficiencies and** 

### 3 **overall system efficiencies, premixed** 

### 4 **combustion systems tend to have lower** 

### 5 **emissions levels. So they have added** 

### 6 **benefit. Derating a combustion system,** 

### 7 **however, is the same thing as oversizing a** 

### 8 **heat exchanger. It does work. It does** 

### 9 **provide slight increases in efficiency but it** 

### 10 **is a very difficult situation to justify the** 

### 11 **cost.** 

### 12 **Several of the technologies** 

### 13 **mentioned are not as robust in field** 

### 14 **applications as they are in the lab. Among** 

### 15 **these are pulse combustion and hot surface** 

### 16 **igniters. They tend to have more issues in** 

### 17 **the field.** 

### 18 **Additionally, one item that the** 

### 19 **Department may want to consider is the** 

### 20 **different technical systems which are used to** 

### 21 **achieve the fuel air mixture. There is a** 

### 22 **standard Venturi.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1 There is more advanced options**  

### 2 **that you can get to the commercial boilers** 

### 3 **that can be cost justified. These would be** 

### 4 **closer to your fuel injection system in your** 

### 5 **vehicle than a simple aerated carburetor.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 7 **Many options listed here in Table 5, 6, and** 

### 8 **7. Additional comments on these? And** 

### 9 **perhaps there are others that have not been** 

### 10 **identified.** 

### 11 **MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with** 

### 12 **ABMA again.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Geoff.** 

### 14 **MR. HALLEY: Sorry?** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Go ahead,** 

### 16 **Geoff.** 

### 17 **MR. HALLEY: Okay. I would like** 

### 18 **to sort of just talk about safety a little** 

### 19 **bit again. I have seen a very nasty accident** 

### 20 **in which a fatality occurred and some of the** 

### 21 **problem was attributable to combustion air** 

### 22 **preheaters. And I think the safety aspects**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1 again should be analyzed as part of the**  

### 2 **overall evaluation, if you like.** 

### 3 **When you put a combustion** 

### 4 **preheater in, you essentially are putting an** 

### 5 **orifice in the air, combustion air inlet to** 

### 6 **the burner and you put in an orifice in the** 

### 7 **flue, if you like. So any combustion** 

### 8 **explosion that might occur for whatever** 

### 9 **reason could be -- the results could be** 

### 10 **aggravated, if you like, by the fact that you** 

### 11 **have orifices at both ends of the system.** 

### 12 **I don't know if anybody has** 

### 13 **looked at that aspect but I have seen a** 

### 14 **fatality occur and that was part of the** 

### 15 **problem.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 17 **thank you. It seemed as though maybe there** 

### 18 **was another person online that wished to** 

### 19 **speak. Please do so.** 

### 20 **MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss** 

### 21 **with Lochinvar. Can you hear me?** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1 sound good. Speak up.**  

### 2 **MR. KLEISS: Okay, this is Jeff** 

### 3 **Kleiss with Lochinvar.** 

### 4 **One of the comments that I had to** 

### 5 **make was related to the switching mode, the** 

### 6 **power supply. We have made a comment on the** 

### 7 **residential boiler test procedures. There is** 

### 8 **something with the EPM pipe modulating** 

### 9 **blowers that if you switch the power off and** 

### 10 **on frequently that it is likely to damage** 

### 11 **those motors.** 

### 12 **One other comment, just regarding** 

### 13 **overall the different technology options, we** 

### 14 **noted that there are really none of these** 

### 15 **that are going to create huge improvements in** 

### 16 **efficiency. And that needs to be kept in** 

### 17 **mind that you shouldn't be expecting a vast** 

### 18 **increase in the minimum efficiency levels.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 20 **Jeff.** 

### 21 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1 Sachs.**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 3 **This comment applies perhaps more** 

### 4 **to 5-4 than to 6-1. Increasingly boilers,** 

### 5 **particularly in the smaller commercial sizes** 

### 6 **are an international business. We see** 

### 7 **reasonable numbers of commercial size** 

### 8 **European boilers coming into this country. I** 

### 9 **believe that the technology options** 

### 10 **considered must build from an international** 

### 11 **survey of technology options which were** 

### 12 **employed, rather than from the type of** 

### 13 **exclusively U.S. technology options that were** 

### 14 **used most recently, in my experience, in the** 

### 15 **residential water heater rulemaking.** 

### 16 **If other folks are doing things,** 

### 17 **we need to know about it. We may or may not** 

### 18 **choose to incorporate those technology** 

### 19 **advances in our standards but we need to be** 

### 20 **aware of them and aware of their potential.** 

### 21 **And we also need to be aware of whether, for** 

### 22 **better or for use, their use would not be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1 advised in this country because of poor**  

### 2 **maintenance practices in this country** 

### 3 **compared to others.** 

### 4 **I don't know what the answer is,** 

### 5 **but this proceeding will be deficient if we** 

### 6 **do not do our technology screening on an** 

### 7 **international basis.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 9 **thank you. Other comments here on Item 5-4?** 

### 10 **A lot of technology options here to consider.** 

### 11 **Nothing additional. Okay. Yes,** 

### 12 **Frank Stanonik.** 

### 13 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 14 **AHRI. If it was discussed, I apologize for** 

### 15 **missing it.** 

### 16 **I don't understand why burner** 

### 17 **derating is considered technology option. I** 

### 18 **think the issue of efficiency for products,** 

### 19 **including commercial products, has been** 

### 20 **around long enough that one of the first** 

### 21 **things manufacturers would have done to** 

### 22 **improve the efficiency of their products is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1 de-rating. And I just don't -- I may be**  

### 2 **following up on what Jeff Kleiss said. I** 

### 3 **just don't see that as a significant option** 

### 4 **as we go forward here because I think it is** 

### 5 **more of a been there, done that. People are** 

### 6 **not designing boilers today that are going to** 

### 7 **be significantly -- that can be significantly** 

### 8 **improved by simply doing some burner** 

### 9 **derating. That is done in the front and not** 

### 10 **as some afterthought.** 

### 11 **I think it is there simply** 

### 12 **because it has always been there for other** 

### 13 **rulemakings. But I think in today's world** 

### 14 **and market of commercial boilers, I just** 

### 15 **don't see that as being very viable.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 17 **thank you.** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and I** 

### 19 **would like to follow up on Frank's question** 

### 20 **with a question for Frank.** 

### 21 **It would be my assumption that in** 

### 22 **some sense derating competes with using a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1 part-load measure. That if I adopt a part**  

### 2 **load measure, hopefully in addition to the** 

### 3 **peak-load measure, I am automatically getting** 

### 4 **the benefit of an oversized, quote-unquote,** 

### 5 **heat exchanger 90 percent of the bin hours.** 

### 6 **It is not operating at full load very often.** 

### 7 **So whether or not I have a** 

### 8 **modulating burner, I am automatically getting** 

### 9 **some derating, as it were, when I am** 

### 10 **operating with a modulating or two-stage** 

### 11 **burner.** 

### 12 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik.** 

### 13 **Harvey, I think I heard a couple** 

### 14 **of things there. First, you mentioned** 

### 15 **something about a part-load measure.** 

### 16 **MR. SACHS: Yes.** 

### 17 **MR. STANONIK: Yes, okay, but** 

### 18 **which I understand that would be for** 

### 19 **independent what kind of burner you have.** 

### 20 **And so if it was just a plain old single-fire** 

### 21 **burner and you had a part-load measure, I am** 

### 22 **actually not sure if you really do get burner**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1 derating. But if you have got a modulating**  

### 2 **burner, if you have got a modulating burner,** 

### 3 **then I think what I was hearing and I would** 

### 4 **absolutely agree with you, the issue of** 

### 5 **burner derating becomes even less of an** 

### 6 **option because, in fact, the modulating** 

### 7 **burner is, in some ways, matching the firing** 

### 8 **to the load.** 

### 9 **And so in most cases, your heat** 

### 10 **exchange surface area didn't change. So** 

### 11 **firing a lower input just makes things** 

### 12 **better.** 

### 13 **And I think that is certainly** 

### 14 **where the industry is going is towards** 

### 15 **modulating burners.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional** 

### 17 **comments here? Okay.** 

### 18 **MS. FOX: Next we will have** 

### 19 **Michael to present the screening analysis.** 

### 20 **MR. DROESCH: In preparation for** 

### 21 **the engineering analysis, DOE will perform a** 

### 22 **preliminary evaluation of each of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1 technologies identified in the market and**  

### 2 **technology assessment and screen out those** 

### 3 **technologies which do not warrant further** 

### 4 **analysis.** 

### 5 **The team will screen these** 

### 6 **technologies, based on how feasible the** 

### 7 **technologies are, how practical they are to** 

### 8 **manufacture, install, and service, what** 

### 9 **adverse effects they may have on equipment** 

### 10 **utility and availability, and how they may** 

### 11 **impact the health and safety of consumers.** 

### 12 **DOE welcomes comments on how** 

### 13 **these four screening criteria may be applied** 

### 14 **to the technology options discussed earlier.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey** 

### 16 **Sachs.** 

### 17 **MR. SACHS: I'm really not trying** 

### 18 **to do scorched earth but trying to lay out** 

### 19 **concerns so we can get to them fairly early.** 

### 20 **Your last bullet says adverse effects on** 

### 21 **health or safety. We are certainly seeing** 

### 22 **differential regulation by the air quality**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1 regulators in California, particularly**  

### 2 **Southwest Air Quality Management District.** 

### 3 **So the argument could be made** 

### 4 **that health impacts have economic value. And** 

### 5 **the question is how DOE will consider the** 

### 6 **benefits of reduced emissions, in this case** 

### 7 **criteria pollutants, but it could be extended** 

### 8 **to carbon, as you have done in many other** 

### 9 **analyses.** 

### 10 **MR. DROESCH: Yes, DOE will** 

### 11 **evaluate the impact on the environment as a** 

### 12 **separate part of the analysis which will be** 

### 13 **discussed later. But we appreciate the** 

### 14 **comment. At this point it is just concerned** 

### 15 **with screening out technologies which may,** 

### 16 **obviously, have an adverse impact on health** 

### 17 **or safety.** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: And this is Harvey** 

### 19 **again. And for the record, on the second** 

### 20 **part of that second -- or the bullet on** 

### 21 **approach, practicability to manufacture,** 

### 22 **install, and service, adding to my earlier**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60**  **1 comment on 5-4, it would seem to me that the**  

### 2 **existence in a reasonable scale of a** 

### 3 **technology option in boilers sold in other** 

### 4 **countries would be prima facie evidence that** 

### 5 **something is at least worthy of being** 

### 6 **considered in the analysis for U.S.** 

### 7 **performance standards. Not the inclusion of** 

### 8 **that but as the potential efficiency.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 10 **thank you. Yes, Phillip.** 

### 11 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 12 **HTP.** 

### 13 **In addition to my previous** 

### 14 **comments on pulse combustion and hot surface** 

### 15 **igniters, I would like to indicate that air** 

### 16 **pre-heaters and economizers, these** 

### 17 **technologies are very common and prevalent** 

### 18 **through a lot of industries.** 

### 19 **However, they are also easy to** 

### 20 **bypass in the field. And if a system is** 

### 21 **designed with one of these components in** 

### 22 **place and then someone in the field doesn't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61**  **1 install it or bypasses it, it can lead to**  

### 2 **safety issues.** 

### 3 **Additionally, these types of** 

### 4 **options would be expected to be more common** 

### 5 **lower efficiency appliances, which are trying** 

### 6 **to achieve an incremental increase in** 

### 7 **efficiency.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 9 **thank you.** 

### 10 **Final comments on this request** 

### 11 **box, 6-1?** 

### 12 **MR. DROESCH: Next, DOE will** 

### 13 **begin the engineering analysis with the goal** 

### 14 **of establishing a cost-efficiency** 

### 15 **relationship for commercial packaged boilers** 

### 16 **and in doing so, determine appropriate** 

### 17 **efficiency levels for further consideration.** 

### 18 **The cost-efficiency relationship** 

### 19 **will serve as a primary input for downstream** 

### 20 **analyses, such as the life-cycle cost,** 

### 21 **manufacturer, and employment impact analyses.** 

### 22 **The first step in the engineering**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62**  **1 analysis is to determine appropriate baseline**  

### 2 **models for each equipment class. DOE will** 

### 3 **then select specific representative units to** 

### 4 **analyze, representing the baseline model as** 

### 5 **well as other models spanning the range of** 

### 6 **efficiencies currently on the market.** 

### 7 **DOE intends to gather data on** 

### 8 **manufacturing costs associated with the** 

### 9 **efficiency levels of each representative** 

### 10 **unit. This may or may not include performing** 

### 11 **tear-down analyses of these units.** 

### 12 **Then for each of the** 

### 13 **representative units, DOE will analyze the** 

### 14 **impact of more stringent efficiency standards** 

### 15 **on manufacturing costs and develop a clear** 

### 16 **cost-efficiency relationship.** 

### 17 **Finally, DOE will scale the** 

### 18 **resulting cost-efficiency relationships from** 

### 19 **each of the representative units to all of** 

### 20 **the models not directly analyzed.** 

### 21 **DOE welcomes comments on the** 

### 22 **range of representative efficiency levels and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63**  **1 capacities that it should consider in the**  

### 2 **engineering analysis. In particular in Item** 

### 3 **7-2, DOE requests feedback on the maximum** 

### 4 **achievable efficiency levels for each** 

### 5 **equipment class. In Item 7-4, DOE is also** 

### 6 **interested in receiving feedback on any** 

### 7 **technologies or performance characteristics** 

### 8 **which may require consideration of multiple** 

### 9 **representative units within a single** 

### 10 **equipment class.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip.** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 13 **HTP.** 

### 14 **With respect to 7-2, should a** 

### 15 **manufacturer develop a max-tech prototype?** 

### 16 **How would we go about notifying the** 

### 17 **Department? And are there any drop dead** 

### 18 **dates for max-tech prototypes?** 

### 19 **MR. DARLINGTON: Adam from** 

### 20 **Navigant.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's use** 

### 22 **that microphone, please.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64**  **1 MR. DARLINGTON: This is Adam**  

### 2 **from Navigant. There are a couple of options** 

### 3 **there.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: It's not -** 

### 5 **- Adam, get it close to you and make sure it** 

### 6 **is on.** 

### 7 **MR. DARLINGTON: Am I on? Okay.** 

### 8 **Am I good now?** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Come on up** 

### 10 **here and sit at the table. We know these are** 

### 11 **working. Thank you.** 

### 12 **MR. DARLINGTON: Okay. So this** 

### 13 **is Adam from Navigant. So basically, you** 

### 14 **have a couple of options, Phillip. You can** 

### 15 **either make a public comment and tell us** 

### 16 **about what your prototype design is what** 

### 17 **efficiency you think would achieve. I mean,** 

### 18 **you are certainly welcome to do that. Or, as** 

### 19 **usual, the Department is going to be** 

### 20 **conducting manufacturer interviews as part of** 

### 21 **the preliminary analysis. And so that would** 

### 22 **be another vehicle through which you could**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65**  **1 contact -- well, tell the Department and**  

### 2 **certainly get that incorporated into the** 

### 3 **analysis.** 

### 4 **And as far as sort of a deadline** 

### 5 **for the consideration, I mean obviously we** 

### 6 **have to do the analysis in a certain amount** 

### 7 **of time before it becomes public because it** 

### 8 **goes through the DOE review process and that** 

### 9 **takes a little bit of time. But we** 

### 10 **reconsider the max-tech at each phase of the** 

### 11 **analysis. So we will do the preliminary** 

### 12 **analysis and we will look at what types of** 

### 13 **prototype designs and what the maximum** 

### 14 **efficiency of products that are being sold on** 

### 15 **the market is at that time and make a** 

### 16 **determination about what the max-tech is for** 

### 17 **the preliminary analysis.** 

### 18 **And then at the NOPR stage, we go** 

### 19 **back and we revise the preliminary analysis.** 

### 20 **So if there is some new design that has come** 

### 21 **on the market in the meantime, then we will** 

### 22 **definitely evaluate that as well. And then**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66**  **1 we do that again at the final rule stage,**  

### 2 **too. So we look and we kind of actively** 

### 3 **revise the analysis as we go through the** 

### 4 **process.** 

### 5 **So there is no real hard cut-off** 

### 6 **date but at each phase of the analysis, we** 

### 7 **will look at it again. And we usually do** 

### 8 **multiple rounds of manufacturing views.** 

### 9 **There is multiple common periods. So there** 

### 10 **is multiple opportunities, if you have a** 

### 11 **prototype design to tell the Department how** 

### 12 **it is coming along.** 

### 13 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens.** 

### 14 **Just a couple of follow-up questions. If** 

### 15 **there are already manufacturers in the AHRI** 

### 16 **database with 99 percent thermal efficiency,** 

### 17 **how does the Department weigh max-tech? Do** 

### 18 **you want to see multiple manufacturers with** 

### 19 **max-tech or multiple different inputs with** 

### 20 **max-tech? Or is there a rule of thumb?** 

### 21 **MR. DARLINGTON: It definitely** 

### 22 **doesn't need to be multiple manufacturers.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67**  **1 So if there is one manufacturer out there**  

### 2 **with a 99 percent, then that would presumably** 

### 3 **be the max-tech. Obviously, if there are** 

### 4 **issues with proprietary technology, we would** 

### 5 **look at that, if it is going to create a** 

### 6 **competitive disadvantage or advantage for a** 

### 7 **certain company. So, those are some things** 

### 8 **that also get considered. But there is no** 

### 9 **sort of rule that it has to be multiple** 

### 10 **manufacturers or it has to be across multiple** 

### 11 **input capacities.** 

### 12 **You know we will look at the** 

### 13 **technology. Usually, we analyze the** 

### 14 **representative input capacity and we look at** 

### 15 **the maximum there. But if we see a design in** 

### 16 **a different input capacity and think that it** 

### 17 **could be easily applied to get a higher** 

### 18 **efficiency at the representative capacity, we** 

### 19 **might look at that as well.** 

### 20 **So I guess there is no hard and** 

### 21 **fast rules with that but we just try to do** 

### 22 **whatever is logical, whatever makes sense.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional**  

### 2 **comments here? Yes, Frank Stanonik.** 

### 3 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 4 **AHRI.** 

### 5 **I am looking at these items that** 

### 6 **are identified here and looking at one of the** 

### 7 **earlier slides that talked about the schedule** 

### 8 **for the test procedure rulemaking, which by** 

### 9 **the slide is projected to be completed July** 

### 10 **2015, not quite two years from now.** 

### 11 **Assuming that the test procedure** 

### 12 **in fact has some significant changes, how are** 

### 13 **you going to manage to do what you talk about** 

### 14 **here in terms of engineering analysis for the** 

### 15 **moving target of the test procedure? Because** 

### 16 **in terms of getting a range of efficiency** 

### 17 **levels, if the test procedure changes** 

### 18 **significantly, there won't be information on** 

### 19 **efficiency levels for the new test procedure.** 

### 20 **Similarly, some of the other** 

### 21 **issues may be affected by the change in the** 

### 22 **test procedures. I am a little curious -- I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69**  **1 will put it this way. I am more than a**  

### 2 **little concerned that a schedule that will** 

### 3 **tell the industry what the revised final rule** 

### 4 **on the test procedure is in July 2015 and** 

### 5 **then at the same time have at least a NOPR** 

### 6 **for this standard rulemaking, I just don't** 

### 7 **see how the engineering analysis that leads** 

### 8 **up to the NOPR will be able to reflect** 

### 9 **whatever affects the revised test procedure** 

### 10 **may have. I think it is -- I am concerned** 

### 11 **that it is going to put the industry in a** 

### 12 **difficult position of trying to address two** 

### 13 **moving targets at the same time.** 

### 14 **MR. DROESCH: Yes, thank you for** 

### 15 **your comment. We understand the concern and** 

### 16 **that is obviously something that we are** 

### 17 **managing, the Department is managing. We are** 

### 18 **aiming to complete the test procedure, as we** 

### 19 **said, before completing the NOPR. And so** 

### 20 **obviously we will have to make do with the** 

### 21 **test procedures that we have in the meantime.** 

### 22 **But if there are any significant changes,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70**  **1 that is something that we would address in**  

### 2 **the final stage.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank.** 

### 4 **MR. STANONIK: Again, I apologize** 

### 5 **for not being here earlier but I was actually** 

### 6 **hoping for some direct answer yesterday as to** 

### 7 **whether this meeting was going to happen or** 

### 8 **not.** 

### 9 **But anyhow, so -- okay and there** 

### 10 **is another point here. So, is this framework** 

### 11 **the official announcement of the rulemaking** 

### 12 **for the test procedures or is there going to** 

### 13 **be another Federal Register notice that** 

### 14 **actually says we are revising the test** 

### 15 **procedure?** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jim Raba.** 

### 17 **MR. RABA: Jim Raba, DOE. The** 

### 18 **framework document in this case addresses the** 

### 19 **standards, which officially begins the** 

### 20 **standards rulemaking but also addresses test** 

### 21 **procedures because you look for data and** 

### 22 **input. The actual beginning of the test**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71**  **1 procedure rulemaking would be with the**  

### 2 **proposed rule later on.** 

### 3 **But this serves to open** 

### 4 **discussion now for your points and others we** 

### 5 **have heard here today, get some feedback as** 

### 6 **to the potential for revising the test** 

### 7 **procedures, pros and cons, things like that.** 

### 8 **So, we want to get that data** 

### 9 **input and comments back early on so we can** 

### 10 **start to consider more thoroughly later on** 

### 11 **when the proposed rule comes out down the** 

### 12 **road, we have something to start with. Right** 

### 13 **now we are just exploring and inviting** 

### 14 **comments. But the actual rulemaking for test** 

### 15 **procedures was down the road in the proposed** 

### 16 **rule, which the time line showed, going** 

### 17 **quickly back, --** 

### 18 **MR. STANONIK: About a year.** 

### 19 **MR. RABA: -- about a year from** 

### 20 **now. Yes, that's right.** 

### 21 **So, this is kind of the entry** 

### 22 **level to get a jump on it, get people's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72**  **1 thoughts and input now and the work in**  

### 2 **process now for other groups, expert groups.** 

### 3 **So it will be very helpful to hear how that** 

### 4 **goes, too.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Michael,** 

### 6 **did you queue item 7-4?** 

### 7 **MR. DROESCH: Yes, I believe we** 

### 8 **did. Does anyone have any comments?** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Looking at** 

### 10 **these four comment boxes, any additional** 

### 11 **comments at this time?** 

### 12 **Phillip.** 

### 13 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 14 **HTP. Can we get clarification? I just** 

### 15 **wasn't very sure I understood the intent of** 

### 16 **question 7-4.** 

### 17 **MR. DROESCH: So if we can, or if** 

### 18 **any stakeholders can identify specific** 

### 19 **technologies or performance characteristics** 

### 20 **which may lead to significantly different** 

### 21 **cost-efficiency relationships for different** 

### 22 **models within a single equipment class, then**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73**  **1 we may need to consider multiple sets of**  

### 2 **representative units for that class.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank.** 

### 4 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik.** 

### 5 **All right, so I understood every word you** 

### 6 **said but I didn't understand the answer.** 

### 7 **What is the concept of multiple** 

### 8 **representative units within a single** 

### 9 **equipment class? What are we talking about?** 

### 10 **MR. DARLINGTON: This is Adam** 

### 11 **Darlington from Navigant.** 

### 12 **So, I think what we are asking** 

### 13 **here is just we do our analysis based on the** 

### 14 **equipment classes that are in place. And** 

### 15 **typically we look at or we try to look at** 

### 16 **what is a typical commercial boiler. You** 

### 17 **know so say gas hot water boiler is small for** 

### 18 **instance, you might have one design that is** 

### 19 **just sort of a cast iron commercial boiler or** 

### 20 **you might have a fire-tube steel boiler. So** 

### 21 **the cost and efficiency relationship or the** 

### 22 **cost of improving the efficiency of one type**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74**  **1 of boiler might be -- we are asking is it**  

### 2 **vastly different enough to where we need to** 

### 3 **consider okay, what is the cost-efficiency** 

### 4 **relationship for this type. What is the** 

### 5 **cost-efficiency relationship for this type.** 

### 6 **And then come up with some way to do like a** 

### 7 **weighted average or merge them together into** 

### 8 **a cost-efficiency relationship over the** 

### 9 **entire equipment class.** 

### 10 **So does that make sense? Does** 

### 11 **that help clarify? Okay.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 13 **Other thoughts, comments here?** 

### 14 **Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. DROESCH: Thank you. Now, I** 

### 16 **will hand it over to Danielle to cover the** 

### 17 **markup analysis.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: In just a** 

### 19 **few moments, we will take a break, by the** 

### 20 **way.** 

### 21 **MS. FOX: Okay, so next we will** 

### 22 **discuss the markups analysis. Its purpose is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75**  **1 to characterize the channels for how the**  

### 2 **equipment is distributed from the** 

### 3 **manufacturer to the end user and to determine** 

### 4 **the price paid by the end user, based on** 

### 5 **manufacturer selling prices for the baseline** 

### 6 **and higher-efficiency equipment.** 

### 7 **Here, DOE plans to identify the** 

### 8 **distribution channels and to estimate the** 

### 9 **markups for each step of the distribution** 

### 10 **channel from manufacturer to end user.** 

### 11 **So this next slide presents the** 

### 12 **distribution channels identified by DOE in** 

### 13 **the framework document. For commercial** 

### 14 **packaged boilers, there is two key markets,** 

### 15 **the replacements and new construction.** 

### 16 **As shown in channel A, the** 

### 17 **replacement distribution channel involves a** 

### 18 **wholesaler and mechanical contractor. And as** 

### 19 **shown in channel B, the new construction** 

### 20 **distribution channel involves a wholesaler,** 

### 21 **mechanical contractor, and general** 

### 22 **contractor.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76**  **1 Additionally, DOE is considering**  

### 2 **the distribution channels where the end user** 

### 3 **may purchase the packaged boiler directly** 

### 4 **from the manufacturer via a national account** 

### 5 **and where the end user may purchase a boiler** 

### 6 **directly from a wholesaler, as shown in** 

### 7 **channels C and D.** 

### 8 **So, for the markups analysis, as** 

### 9 **listed in Item 8-1, DOE seeks input on the** 

### 10 **distribution channels described on the** 

### 11 **previous slide and whether they are** 

### 12 **appropriate for commercial packaged boilers.** 

### 13 **Item 8-2, DOE seeks input on the** 

### 14 **percentage of equipment being distributed** 

### 15 **through the different channels.** 

### 16 **And Item 8-3, DOE welcomes** 

### 17 **suggestions and comments concerning its** 

### 18 **proposed approach to developing estimates of** 

### 19 **future commercial packaged boiler retail** 

### 20 **prices.** 

### 21 **And Item 8-4, DOE seeks recent** 

### 22 **data, in order to establish the markups for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77**  **1 the parties involved with each distribution**  

### 2 **channel.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey** 

### 4 **Sachs.** 

### 5 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 6 **Danielle, in my mental picture** 

### 7 **and I am asking about this clarification of** 

### 8 **the definition. A wholesaler takes** 

### 9 **possession and ownership of a piece of** 

### 10 **equipment. He warehouses it, provides other** 

### 11 **services. It has been my sense that much of** 

### 12 **the commercial boiler equipment, like a lot** 

### 13 **of other boiler equipment, instead goes from** 

### 14 **mechanical contractor to a manufacturer's** 

### 15 **representative, who deals with the** 

### 16 **manufacturer. And that manufacturer's** 

### 17 **representative never takes ownership of the** 

### 18 **equipment, but represents the manufacturer as** 

### 19 **an independent agent with a line card.** 

### 20 **And I am not sure whether my** 

### 21 **impression of this being rather prevalent is** 

### 22 **true or not but I certainly think it warrants**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78**  **1 consideration as equipment moves up from**  

### 2 **residential sizes into the true commercial** 

### 3 **world with some hand holding required.** 

### 4 **MS. FOX: Okay, so you are** 

### 5 **suggesting another distribution channel?** 

### 6 **MR. SACHS: Yes, ma'am, I am.** 

### 7 **MS. FOX: Yes, okay.** 

### 8 **MR. SACHS: And I really am** 

### 9 **asking the manufacturers and others in the** 

### 10 **industry to help you understand whether that** 

### 11 **channel might have quite different markups.** 

### 12 **And I am not sure at all whether in boilers** 

### 13 **as opposed to some other HVAC equipment that** 

### 14 **is really an important channel or whether it** 

### 15 **is just from the margin.** 

### 16 **MS. FOX: Great, thank you.** 

### 17 **MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with** 

### 18 **ABMA.** 

### 19 **Harvey is exactly right.** 

### 20 **Certainly the manufacturers that ABMA** 

### 21 **represent, which are let's say above** 

### 22 **4,000,000 or 5,000,000 BTU input are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79**  **1 typically they use a manufacturer's rep.**  

### 2 **They sell to a mechanical contractor or, in** 

### 3 **some cases, even an end user, depending on** 

### 4 **the size of the installation and so on, the** 

### 5 **type of installation.** 

### 6 **So, there is another distribution** 

### 7 **channel that should be included, in my** 

### 8 **opinion.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 10 **thank you. What about some of these** 

### 11 **distribution channels? And can you say among** 

### 12 **these what the relative percentages are? How** 

### 13 **product moves among these what would be now** 

### 14 **five distribution channels, the one that** 

### 15 **Geoff and Harvey referred to would be the new** 

### 16 **E, I presume.** 

### 17 **MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley again.** 

### 18 **I don't have a good feel for it. I think** 

### 19 **certainly below the 2.5 million BTU you have** 

### 20 **got a much higher unit count, but I am not** 

### 21 **sure how the BTU comparison would size up.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80**  **1 Frank Stanonik.**  

### 2 **MR. STANONIK: I'm Stanonik with** 

### 3 **AHRI.** 

### 4 **First of all, I have never seen** 

### 5 **any data that would answer that question as** 

### 6 **to what percentage of equipment goes to which** 

### 7 **distribution channel. I would suggest that** 

### 8 **perhaps the better question would be an** 

### 9 **attempt to distinguish as the product** 

### 10 **increases in input which distribution** 

### 11 **channels become the common ones.** 

### 12 **Again, I think as Jeff was** 

### 13 **saying, if my business is selling half a** 

### 14 **million BTU boilers, 500,000 BTU boilers, I** 

### 15 **can foresee that that might be distributed** 

### 16 **through certain channels. But if I am** 

### 17 **distributing an 8,000,000 to 10,000,000 BTU** 

### 18 **boiler, I would tend to think that probably** 

### 19 **goes through a different distribution** 

### 20 **channel, just by the very fact that I am** 

### 21 **probably not going to stock a lot of those** 

### 22 **anywhere, just for starters.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81**  **1 So I think maybe the better idea**  

### 2 **would be to see which channels are prevalent** 

### 3 **as the equipment becomes larger in input and** 

### 4 **with all the associated issues of how do you** 

### 5 **manage getting those from Point A to Point B,** 

### 6 **how do you manage having them available when** 

### 7 **somebody wants one and all those good things.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 9 **thank you. Other comments on this** 

### 10 **distribution channel, these models?** 

### 11 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And** 

### 12 **Danielle, I would suggest that the** 

### 13 **transcripts from the ASRAC working group may** 

### 14 **be very helpful because there was a great** 

### 15 **deal of discussion about the issues that** 

### 16 **Frank has pointed to.** 

### 17 **In addition to that, there is an** 

### 18 **enormous amount of variability in what we** 

### 19 **eventually wound up calling built to stock,** 

### 20 **as opposed to built to order, which is rather** 

### 21 **prevalent in the larger classes. And then** 

### 22 **there was custom on top of that, which again**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82**  **1 you would expect to be more prevalent in the**  

### 2 **larger sizes.** 

### 3 **But I think this distribution** 

### 4 **channel thing is not just size dependent but** 

### 5 **also the characteristics in the market for** 

### 6 **the particular equipment.** 

### 7 **MS. FOX: Thank you.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, thank** 

### 9 **you. Additional comments here?** 

### 10 **MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley again.** 

### 11 **We did a survey of our membership** 

### 12 **at ABMA. And the entire group are working on** 

### 13 **a built to order setup. They don't build** 

### 14 **anything for stock. I don't know whether** 

### 15 **that helps at all but the marketplace is** 

### 16 **purely built to order from our point of view.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 18 **thank you.** 

### 19 **And I guess does that confirm** 

### 20 **then what you said earlier about the** 

### 21 **distribution channel?** 

### 22 **MR. HALLEY: Yes. Yes, the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83**  **1 actual order -- the input to the order, if**  

### 2 **you like, comes from basically an engineering** 

### 3 **group who are designing the installation.** 

### 4 **They decide what they want in terms of** 

### 5 **capacities, the bells and whistles, they go** 

### 6 **along with it, emissions, and that sort of** 

### 7 **thing. And then that flows through a** 

### 8 **mechanical contractor for the bidding process** 

### 9 **to start. But every unit, they have a** 

### 10 **standard heat exchanger, basically. But the** 

### 11 **whole system beyond that is built to order.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 13 **thank you.** 

### 14 **Additional and perhaps final** 

### 15 **comments on these comment boxes, markups** 

### 16 **analysis? Nothing additional.** 

### 17 **I think we should take a break at** 

### 18 **this point. It is almost 10:30 here. Let's** 

### 19 **take a break, which means we will resume at** 

### 20 **10:45.** 

### 21 **We are making good progress. We** 

### 22 **are ahead of schedule. The comments have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84**  **1 been excellent. The Department would like to**  

### 2 **have more of it and also have it in written** 

### 3 **comments in their inbox.** 

### 4 **Most of you are familiar with the** 

### 5 **Forrestal Building. You must wear this** 

### 6 **visitor's badge or some form of** 

### 7 **identification above your waist.** 

### 8 **There are restrooms on both ends** 

### 9 **of the hall. There is a coffee shop on the** 

### 10 **ground floor, elevators straight on down. If** 

### 11 **you are going to go get coffee, do it** 

### 12 **quickly. Sometimes they are slow down there.** 

### 13 **And we will resume at 10:45 but** 

### 14 **thanks for a good start on the day. We will** 

### 15 **see you back here in 15 minutes.** 

### 16 **(Whereupon, the foregoing proceeding went off** 

### 17 **the record at 10:26 a.m. and went** 

### 18 **back on the record at 10:52 a.m.)** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's** 

### 20 **resume. Thanks for your patience. We are** 

### 21 **going to take it back to Danielle.** 

### 22 **MS. FOX: Thank you. So next is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85**  **1 the energy use analysis, which develops the**  

### 2 **annual energy use for commercial packaged** 

### 3 **boilers in order to estimate the energy** 

### 4 **savings potential of amended standards in the** 

### 5 **life-cycle cost and payback period analysis.** 

### 6 **Here, DOE plans to determine** 

### 7 **space heating and water heating use over the** 

### 8 **range of applications, commercial building** 

### 9 **types, and climate zones for packaged boiler** 

### 10 **equipment.** 

### 11 **DOE also plans to develop a** 

### 12 **relationship between packaged boiler energy** 

### 13 **use and thermal efficiency in order to** 

### 14 **determine the energy use by efficiency level** 

### 15 **for all equipment classes. And DOE also** 

### 16 **plans to account for the electricity** 

### 17 **consumption of the package boiler components.** 

### 18 **And as listed in Item 9-1, DOE** 

### 19 **seeks input on the planned approach for** 

### 20 **determining energy consumption of packaged** 

### 21 **boilers in commercial buildings.** 

### 22 **And Item 9-2, DOE seeks**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86**  **1 historical shipment-weighted packaged boiler**  

### 2 **efficiency data. And here, DOE is primarily** 

### 3 **interested in obtaining these data during the** 

### 4 **last ten years, in order to capture the** 

### 5 **impact of the most current technologies on** 

### 6 **the boilers market.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip, I** 

### 8 **thought I would give you a chance.** 

### 9 **MR. STEPHENS: Thank you. I** 

### 10 **would like to learn more about how the** 

### 11 **Department is estimating the hot water** 

### 12 **consumed or used for heating. Is this by** 

### 13 **standard design practices with a** 

### 14 **stereotypical building, or is this from** 

### 15 **direct to measurement, or what method?** 

### 16 **MS. FOX: Right. It will depend** 

### 17 **on what type of data is available. You know** 

### 18 **the idea is to perform this in the energy use** 

### 19 **analysis, the methodology I think is still** 

### 20 **under development at this stage of the** 

### 21 **rulemaking.** 

### 22 **So any input on that factor would**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87**  **1 be greatly appreciated.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank** 

### 3 **Stanonik.** 

### 4 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 5 **AHRI.** 

### 6 **Having been involved in ASHRAE** 

### 7 **standard 90.1 for a very long time, I know** 

### 8 **that in support of DOE's support of that** 

### 9 **standard, PNNL has a methodology, a computer** 

### 10 **program if you will, that estimates energy** 

### 11 **consumption of certain types of commercial** 

### 12 **buildings on a total basis looking at all the** 

### 13 **systems in there. But it seems to me that** 

### 14 **that same methodology could certainly be,** 

### 15 **let's say, subdivided or whatever to strictly** 

### 16 **look at the consumption of the heating** 

### 17 **system, which in this case would be a** 

### 18 **commercial packaged boiler.** 

### 19 **So I am wondering if there has** 

### 20 **been any attempt yet to look at the tool that** 

### 21 **already is being used by PNNL to estimate** 

### 22 **energy consumption for commercial systems.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88**  **1 MS. FOX: Yes, we will look into**  

### 2 **that as part of this analysis.** 

### 3 **MR. STANONIK: Because they have,** 

### 4 **I don't remember the exact number, but they** 

### 5 **have, I think, I want to say somewhere** 

### 6 **between eight and maybe twelve building** 

### 7 **types, small office, high rise residential,** 

### 8 **and on and on and on. Then they are** 

### 9 **characterized also by climate zones and** 

### 10 **things of that nature.** 

### 11 **So I think there may be a tool** 

### 12 **there that certainly has been used for quite** 

### 13 **some time in supporting 90.1 levels that may** 

### 14 **have some usefulness here. Because** 

### 15 **otherwise, I am not sure -- I will put it** 

### 16 **this way. That is the only one I am aware** 

### 17 **of.** 

### 18 **MS. FOX: Okay, thank you.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 20 **Harvey Sachs.** 

### 21 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs** 

### 22 **and I certainly support Frank's suggestion of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89**  **1 looking at the PNNL models. To me, the**  

### 2 **critical question is the granularity of those** 

### 3 **models in terms of how space heat is done,** 

### 4 **particularly in larger buildings, where you** 

### 5 **quite often see it being allocated** 

### 6 **exclusively to perimeter zones, rather than** 

### 7 **core zones, which generate excess heat. And** 

### 8 **it is really going to be important to be sure** 

### 9 **that these are granular enough since that** 

### 10 **perimeter heat may in fact compete with some** 

### 11 **of the cooling that is happening** 

### 12 **simultaneously in the building. I just don't** 

### 13 **know how the models handle it.** 

### 14 **On another point still relevant** 

### 15 **to 9-1, Martha Hewitt recently retired from** 

### 16 **Minnesota Center for Energy Efficiency was** 

### 17 **the lead on 155-SP or P or whatever it was --** 

### 18 **SPC at ASHRAE. And I suspect we could find** 

### 19 **ways to reach Martha and she knows where** 

### 20 **every commercial building boiler energy use** 

### 21 **study was done. A lot of that was in the** 

### 22 **'70s, the building stock may have changed but**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90**  **1 still, there is some set of data that has**  

### 2 **been generated at great expense and may still** 

### 3 **be relevant. And we can certainly help you** 

### 4 **try to find that.** 

### 5 **MS. FOX: Okay, thank you.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 7 **Harvey. That is helpful. Thank you.** 

### 8 **Additional comments on 9-1 and 9-** 

### 9 **2?** 

### 10 **MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley, ABMA.** 

### 11 **One of the things that I have a** 

### 12 **question about is -- well, there is a couple** 

### 13 **actually. But the first one is do any of** 

### 14 **these models look at maintenance practices** 

### 15 **and the quality of maintenance, you know good** 

### 16 **maintenance versus bad maintenance and the** 

### 17 **degradation of the total system over time** 

### 18 **because of the maintenance practice involved?** 

### 19 **You know you can put a very** 

### 20 **efficient boiler in the system but if the** 

### 21 **system is not designed properly or not** 

### 22 **maintained properly, then it is not going to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91**  **1 perform as initially advertised for very**  

### 2 **long. And I wonder if any attempt has been** 

### 3 **done to sort of compensate for those sort of** 

### 4 **things or whether it is even being** 

### 5 **considered.** 

### 6 **The other thing that I have seen** 

### 7 **over the years is that certainly in the** 

### 8 **larger units, if you go into a boiler room, a** 

### 9 **heating boiler room, they quite often, let's** 

### 10 **for the sake of argument say, there is say** 

### 11 **six 300-horse power, which are about 12.5** 

### 12 **million input. Six of those in the boiler** 

### 13 **room. They are all the same size. And I** 

### 14 **think if you tried to match the capacity** 

### 15 **required over a heating season, then it is** 

### 16 **probably about choice. You probably need** 

### 17 **some smaller boilers get the most out of them** 

### 18 **from an efficiency point of view in the** 

### 19 **shoulders of the heating season and then some** 

### 20 **larger boilers for the sort of cold weather.** 

### 21 **Has anything been done on DOE's** 

### 22 **part to look at that aspect of the total**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92**  **1 heating system?**  

### 2 **MS. FOX: Yes, so to answer your** 

### 3 **first question, so we do consider maintenance** 

### 4 **and repair costs in the life-cycle cost** 

### 5 **analysis, which is what I will be discussing** 

### 6 **next.** 

### 7 **And then for the second question,** 

### 8 **yes, so the energy use analysis really looks** 

### 9 **into how boilers are actually being used in** 

### 10 **the field. So I think the situation you** 

### 11 **described is something that we will look** 

### 12 **into, considering for this part of the** 

### 13 **rulemaking.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 15 **Geoff.** 

### 16 **Yes, Frank.** 

### 17 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 18 **AHRI.** 

### 19 **A comment and a question. As far** 

### 20 **as Item 9-2, I certainly see what DOE is** 

### 21 **interested in but I would venture that -- I** 

### 22 **will certainly speak from AHRI's perspective,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93**  **1 if we are, in fact, able to provide you such**  

### 2 **data, it is not going to be any more granular** 

### 3 **than condensing versus non-condensing** 

### 4 **shipments. There aren't, I don't believe** 

### 5 **there are such a wide range of efficiencies** 

### 6 **that you can really talk about bins. It is** 

### 7 **more of an issue of shipments of non** 

### 8 **condensing products versus condensing** 

### 9 **products. And again, I say if because** 

### 10 **obviously, we will provide the data that our** 

### 11 **members allow us to provide.** 

### 12 **Now, the question is on the first** 

### 13 **bullet under method you talk about** 

### 14 **determining space heating and water heating** 

### 15 **over a range of applications. How is -- the** 

### 16 **standard we are talking about here is for** 

### 17 **space heating boilers. So how is the water** 

### 18 **heating consumption being brought into this?** 

### 19 **And well, how is it being brought into this** 

### 20 **and how are you going to address that -- well** 

### 21 **certainly not all space heating boilers are** 

### 22 **also doing any portable water heating.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94**  **1 MS. FOX: Right, yes. So, the**  

### 2 **idea here is there are some boilers that are** 

### 3 **used for both applications. And so we are** 

### 4 **just looking at the energy use that goes into** 

### 5 **that. As well we are looking into the energy** 

### 6 **use of the boiler, whether or not it is** 

### 7 **providing space and/or the water heating.** 

### 8 **And like I said, the method is** 

### 9 **still under determination. So, we are really** 

### 10 **just trying to seek input. Maybe it is a** 

### 11 **very small percentage of boilers that perform** 

### 12 **this. But what we are really trying to** 

### 13 **capture is the field performance of boiler** 

### 14 **technology.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip.** 

### 16 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 17 **HTP. On Item 9-1, HTP would like to** 

### 18 **encourage the Department to fund research** 

### 19 **into current technologies and current heat** 

### 20 **loads and water consumption for various uses.** 

### 21 **I think you have heard from a couple of** 

### 22 **different people here that we are still**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95**  **1 relying on models that were basically created**  

### 2 **in the '70s and '80s. And a lot of things** 

### 3 **have changed since then with the building** 

### 4 **envelopes. We have ran into this situation a** 

### 5 **couple of different times and sooner or later** 

### 6 **we really need to update those primary** 

### 7 **sources for the information.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Actual** 

### 9 **data.** 

### 10 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: On Item -- I think** 

### 13 **Frank was alluding to -- 9-4 with the** 

### 14 **question about boilers versus water heaters.** 

### 15 **MR. STANONIK: I just commented** 

### 16 **on the first bullet under method, where it** 

### 17 **says determine space heating and water** 

### 18 **heating over the range of applications.** 

### 19 **MR. STEPHENS: Okay. HTP has** 

### 20 **noticed the same thing and encourages the** 

### 21 **Department to investigate this.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96**  **1 Harvey.**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 3 **With respect to Phillip’s comment** 

### 4 **on building envelope changes, one of the bits** 

### 5 **of data that may be informative and may be** 

### 6 **available through sources like McGraw-Hill is** 

### 7 **simply the fraction of commercial building** 

### 8 **packaged boilers that are going into new** 

### 9 **construction versus existing buildings. Yes,** 

### 10 **there is more granularity into what envelope** 

### 11 **upgrades have gone on in the existing** 

### 12 **buildings. And when I think of the** 

### 13 **characteristic high rise New York residential** 

### 14 **application, I shudder with respect to Geoff** 

### 15 **Halley's question about how they are operated** 

### 16 **but also, I don't get the sense that -- I get** 

### 17 **the sense that we are designing for a larger** 

### 18 **market of existing buildings and a much** 

### 19 **smaller market of new construction.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 21 **thank you.** 

### 22 **I think we have covered 9-1 and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97**  **1 9-2. You want to queue up the additional**  

### 2 **items beginning with 9-3?** 

### 3 **MS. FOX: Yes.** 

### 4 **So, continuing on, Item 9-3, DOE** 

### 5 **seeks input on data sources that it can use** 

### 6 **to characterize the variability in annual** 

### 7 **energy consumption for packaged boilers.** 

### 8 **Item 9-4, DOE requests comment on** 

### 9 **what other energy use by commercial packaged** 

### 10 **boilers should be included that may be** 

### 11 **missing in what has been described so far.** 

### 12 **Item 9-5, DOE welcomes comments** 

### 13 **on whether the rated thermal efficiencies for** 

### 14 **all packaged boiler equipment should be** 

### 15 **adjusted to reflect return-water conditions.** 

### 16 **Item 9-6, DOE seeks input on what** 

### 17 **fractions of hot-water commercial packaged** 

### 18 **boilers are used for both space heating and** 

### 19 **water heating.** 

### 20 **Item 9-7, DOE seeks input on the** 

### 21 **fraction of packaged boilers used in** 

### 22 **residential applications.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98**  **1 And Item 9-8, DOE seeks comment**  

### 2 **on the rebound effect that may be associated** 

### 3 **with the more efficient boiler equipment.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey.** 

### 5 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 6 **Over the last few years, the** 

### 7 **annual hot water forum that our organization** 

### 8 **sponsors has had a number of speakers on** 

### 9 **multi-family, and to a lesser extent** 

### 10 **commercial hot water use. There are some** 

### 11 **very active organizations in both California** 

### 12 **and New England working hard on this. And** 

### 13 **you may get some ideas for people who have** 

### 14 **done field studies, not just on the hot water** 

### 15 **side, but on the space heating side, from** 

### 16 **just looking through the author list from** 

### 17 **those meetings, they are posted with most of** 

### 18 **the presentations.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 20 **Quite a few questions here. Data** 

### 21 **sources, energy use in energy use analysis,** 

### 22 **fractions of hot water commercial packaged**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99**  **1 boilers used for both space heating and hot**  

### 2 **water applications, fraction of residential** 

### 3 **and rebound effect.** 

### 4 **Frank.** 

### 5 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 6 **AHRI.** 

### 7 **As far as 9-5, I would suggest** 

### 8 **the answer is no, they shouldn't. I am** 

### 9 **assuming that is in terms of trying to make** 

### 10 **some analysis of what is out there in the** 

### 11 **field and I just see that as a significant** 

### 12 **complication that cannot come out well** 

### 13 **because how would DOE get any reasonable** 

### 14 **representation of what return water** 

### 15 **temperature conditions actually are in** 

### 16 **whatever installations there are out there in** 

### 17 **the field.** 

### 18 **If there is a concern with that** 

### 19 **issue, I would suggest it could be addressed** 

### 20 **in the test procedure revisions which, again,** 

### 21 **if there is an issue there, there certainly** 

### 22 **could be modifications to the parameters of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100**  **1 the test procedure perhaps to narrow or**  

### 2 **redefine the return water temperature** 

### 3 **conditions.** 

### 4 **But I am reading that to say** 

### 5 **okay, we are going to do this engineering** 

### 6 **analysis and we are going to somehow assess** 

### 7 **what the thermal efficiencies of all these** 

### 8 **installed boilers are out there in the field.** 

### 9 **And then we are going to try and adjust them** 

### 10 **for return-water conditions, which if you** 

### 11 **don't really know let's say what the actual** 

### 12 **distribution of return-water conditions are,** 

### 13 **that is just a guess upon a guess, upon a** 

### 14 **guess. I just don't see that that really has** 

### 15 **value.** 

### 16 **Again, but if we are looking at,** 

### 17 **as we go forward, well then that to me is a** 

### 18 **test procedure issue, not an energy analysis** 

### 19 **issue.** 

### 20 **The other question number 9-7 --** 

### 21 **first let me emphasize, my gut reaction to** 

### 22 **this framework document that this was an**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101**  **1 incredibly complex analysis. And so I am**  

### 2 **looking at places where I guess in my own** 

### 3 **mind I am trying to make it a little simpler.** 

### 4 **And I think 9-7 is one of those that would** 

### 5 **make it simpler.** 

### 6 **What difference does it make if** 

### 7 **the commercial packaged boiler is use in a** 

### 8 **residential application? I would say it** 

### 9 **would be a valid assumption it is being used** 

### 10 **in a residential application because that is** 

### 11 **the size of boiler that was needed. And so** 

### 12 **whether it is a residential application or** 

### 13 **not it is meeting basically a commercial** 

### 14 **load. And so, that being the case, again, if** 

### 15 **it has been admittedly not a solid** 

### 16 **assumption, but if an assumption is made** 

### 17 **there had been some reasonable sizing and** 

### 18 **that product was put in there because that is** 

### 19 **what was needed, then why do I care whether** 

### 20 **it was a residential application or a light** 

### 21 **duty commercial or whatever? I just don't** 

### 22 **see what uniqueness, what value that adds to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102**  **1 the analysis.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey.** 

### 3 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 4 **Frank, I had flagged the word** 

### 5 **residential in 9-7 as well. And it is not** 

### 6 **clear to me whether your question deals with** 

### 7 **the odd McMansion of 10,000 square feet in** 

### 8 **Minneapolis or the much more common multi** 

### 9 **family residential application that would be** 

### 10 **perhaps within a 90.1 or it might be campus** 

### 11 **type.** 

### 12 **If it is the former, I agree with** 

### 13 **Frank that it is at the margin, if it is more** 

### 14 **likely to be, it is my guess. If it is the** 

### 15 **latter, I wonder if your counterparts at HUD** 

### 16 **might have done some analyses in conjunction** 

### 17 **with their efforts to spend ARRA money over** 

### 18 **the last few years. And that might be worth** 

### 19 **calling around to look for, in terms of the** 

### 20 **multi-family or 90.1 residential** 

### 21 **applications.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103**  **1 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,**  

### 2 **AHRI. Just a quick add-on.** 

### 3 **Yes, as if, as Harvey has** 

### 4 **suggested, if you are talking about multi** 

### 5 **family residential applications, then again I** 

### 6 **would say the answer is this market large** 

### 7 **enough for DOE to take into account? In** 

### 8 **terms of space heating boilers, I would say** 

### 9 **absolutely. I mean there are many older** 

### 10 **multi-family building applications where the** 

### 11 **heating system is being provided by a boiler.** 

### 12 **Obviously you will probably find them more in** 

### 13 **the northeast and maybe even some areas here** 

### 14 **in the mid-Atlantic and everything. But** 

### 15 **there was certainly a time before air** 

### 16 **conditioning became very popular and** 

### 17 **certainly in colder climates, that if you had** 

### 18 **a multi-family building, your heating system** 

### 19 **was a boiler.** 

### 20 **Again, if that is what you meant,** 

### 21 **I don't think you need to ask the question.** 

### 22 **MR. SACHS: It was a boiler with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104**  **1 a thermostatic control provided by William**  

### 2 **Electric.** 

### 3 **MR. STANONIK: Yes, right.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: What about** 

### 5 **rebound affect?** 

### 6 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,** 

### 7 **Lochinvar.** 

### 8 **I would say that on commercial** 

### 9 **applications, there will be negligible** 

### 10 **rebound effect. The users of the equipment,** 

### 11 **in most cases, won't even know that they have** 

### 12 **high efficiency appliances.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: All they** 

### 14 **are doing is looking at the price, cost.** 

### 15 **MR. KLEISS: Well the users are** 

### 16 **going to be occupants in a building that did** 

### 17 **have a direct connection to the purchase of** 

### 18 **the equipment.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Right.** 

### 20 **MR. KLEISS: All they are going** 

### 21 **to care about is, am I comfortable or not.** 

### 22 **And they are going to set the thermostat**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105**  **1 accordingly.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 3 **Frank.** 

### 4 **MR. STANONIK: Yes, Frank** 

### 5 **Stanonik, HIR.** 

### 6 **Picking up on that, again, let's** 

### 7 **say appreciating a little bit what the** 

### 8 **existing stock of commercial boiler** 

### 9 **installations are. And certainly in more** 

### 10 **recent years it has changed but I would say** 

### 11 **the prevalent practice used to be that you** 

### 12 **put in probably, if anything, a larger boiler** 

### 13 **than necessary to make sure that everybody** 

### 14 **had the heat they wanted. And so I just** 

### 15 **don't see that now I am putting in a more** 

### 16 **efficient boiler, assuming that it is** 

### 17 **properly sized that there is going to be** 

### 18 **somehow some increased demand for more heat.** 

### 19 **I think as Jeff said, the people,** 

### 20 **the actual, let's say the recipients of the** 

### 21 **space heating are not necessarily the ones** 

### 22 **controlling the boiler operation.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey**  

### 2 **Sachs.** 

### 3 **MR. SACHS: I am hearing** 

### 4 **consensus in the room, at least, that if** 

### 5 **something has to be sacrificed to get the** 

### 6 **analysis done quickly and in budget, that the** 

### 7 **theology of rebound is one item that might be** 

### 8 **left on the side and not included.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You had to** 

### 10 **bring theology into it!** 

### 11 **MR. SACHS: It is a theological** 

### 12 **issue invoked by the economists, not the** 

### 13 **engineers.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip.** 

### 15 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 16 **HTP.** 

### 17 **I agree. I do not expect a** 

### 18 **rebound effect to happen in the commercial** 

### 19 **market. As far as Item 9-7, I think it is** 

### 20 **important to note that we are seeing a** 

### 21 **growing trend for residential boilers to be** 

### 22 **teamed together to provide commercial levels**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 107**  **1 of heating. And this is done predominantly**  

### 2 **because of rebate issues.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Rebate?** 

### 4 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, R ratings,** 

### 5 **larger rebates, manufacturers can do this.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Will the** 

### 7 **utilities have a decent enough records for** 

### 8 **that to give you some good data on those** 

### 9 **rebates?** 

### 10 **MR. STEPHENS: I don't know.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Hard to** 

### 12 **say. You think so?** 

### 13 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 14 **It is conceivable that the** 

### 15 **Consortium for Energy Efficiency could** 

### 16 **provide some aggregated data from their** 

### 17 **programs. And they would be the ones to** 

### 18 **contact in Boston.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 20 **thank you.** 

### 21 **Final comments on 9-3 through 9-** 

### 22 **8, especially those via the web.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 108**  **1 MR. SACHS: One other comment, if**  

### 2 **I might, on the use of residential boilers in** 

### 3 **commercial applications. Phillip, I may be** 

### 4 **wrong but I have been under the impression** 

### 5 **that this has also been driven by a lot of** 

### 6 **other things that are relatively low cost** 

### 7 **with multiple smaller boilers, the redundancy** 

### 8 **capabilities, the staging and a number of** 

### 9 **manufacturers. They are certainly providing** 

### 10 **their boilers with built-in operation** 

### 11 **capabilities as a boiler train. And I don't** 

### 12 **think that is included in the commercial** 

### 13 **product now but I could be wrong.** 

### 14 **So I think it is a complex thing** 

### 15 **that is driving that and I am not sure how** 

### 16 **DOE should or should not incorporate that in** 

### 17 **the analysis.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 19 **thank you. Do you have anything else you** 

### 20 **want to pursue?** 

### 21 **MS. FOX: No.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 109**  **1 think we have covered it. We are moving on.**  

### 2 **MS. FOX: Okay, so next we have** 

### 3 **the life-cycle cost and payback period** 

### 4 **analysis. DOE plans to assess the life-cycle** 

### 5 **cost or also I will be referring to it as LCC** 

### 6 **and payback period for users of commercial** 

### 7 **packaged boilers under the considered** 

### 8 **efficiency levels.** 

### 9 **The LCC is equal to the user** 

### 10 **price plus the sum of the installation cost** 

### 11 **and annual operating costs over the analysis** 

### 12 **discounted to a base year.** 

### 13 **The analysis will model the** 

### 14 **uncertainty and variability of inputs, using** 

### 15 **a Monte Carlo calculation method and** 

### 16 **probability distributions and will be** 

### 17 **implemented in a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet,** 

### 18 **combined with a Crystal Ball add-in.** 

### 19 **And as listed in Item 10-1, DOE** 

### 20 **seeks input on its proposed LCC approach to** 

### 21 **using probability distributions and Monte** 

### 22 **Carlo simulation.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 110**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I think**  

### 2 **these methods are well-known to several of** 

### 3 **you. What do you think? No comments here?** 

### 4 **No comments here.** 

### 5 **MS. FOX: Okay. So, in addition** 

### 6 **to the outputs of the engineering, markups,** 

### 7 **and energy use analyses, the LCC uses the** 

### 8 **inputs listed here. For the energy prices,** 

### 9 **DOE intends to determine gas, oil, and** 

### 10 **electricity prices, based on recent tariffs** 

### 11 **from a representative sample of utilities and** 

### 12 **the EIA's Annual Energy Outlook.** 

### 13 **Installation, maintenance and** 

### 14 **repair costs, DOE plans to develop using the** 

### 15 **most recent form of RSMeans data.** 

### 16 **Lifetime, DOE plans to develop** 

### 17 **probability distributions to characterize** 

### 18 **lifetime and plans to use publicly available** 

### 19 **data as well as consult with industry** 

### 20 **experts.** 

### 21 **And finally for discount rates,** 

### 22 **DOE will derive the discount rates for boiler**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 111**  **1 users by estimating the capital costs for the**  

### 2 **companies that purchase the commercial** 

### 3 **packaged boiler equipment.** 

### 4 **And so this next slide just maps** 

### 5 **all of the inputs to the life-cycle cost** 

### 6 **analysis. The top branch includes the** 

### 7 **derivation of the total installed costs. And** 

### 8 **the bottom branch describes the derivation of** 

### 9 **the boiler operating expenses. And together,** 

### 10 **DOE is able to determine the LCC and payback** 

### 11 **period estimates.** 

### 12 **So, beginning with Item 10-2, DOE** 

### 13 **requests data to characterize the current mix** 

### 14 **of boiler efficiencies on the market.** 

### 15 **Item 10-3, DOE seeks input on its** 

### 16 **planned approach for estimating future energy** 

### 17 **prices.** 

### 18 **Item 10-4, DOE seeks input on its** 

### 19 **approach to determining maintenance and** 

### 20 **repair costs.** 

### 21 **And Item 10-5, DOE seeks input on** 

### 22 **its proposed approach to determining**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 112**  **1 installation costs.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey** 

### 3 **Sachs.** 

### 4 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 5 **With respect to Item 10-3, future** 

### 6 **energy prices and going back a bit, the** 

### 7 **discount rates, for those who are not** 

### 8 **subjected to these processes as often as some** 

### 9 **of us, is DOE planning any significant** 

### 10 **deviation from its general methodologies of** 

### 11 **using EIA forecasts with some sensitivity** 

### 12 **analysis and in terms of discount rates,** 

### 13 **using the three percent and seven percent** 

### 14 **numbers that OMB has dictated for analogous** 

### 15 **proceedings?** 

### 16 **MS. FOX: I think at this point** 

### 17 **there is not any major change anticipated. I** 

### 18 **think it is pretty standard. But again, if** 

### 19 **any changes are made, it will be expressed** 

### 20 **and there will be room for comment in the** 

### 21 **NOPR or at the preliminary analysis stage.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 113**  **1 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,**  

### 2 **HTP.** 

### 3 **I am very interested to learn how** 

### 4 **the Department will develop a Weibull** 

### 5 **probability distribution for multiple** 

### 6 **manufacturers’ products.** 

### 7 **MS. FOX: Yes, so --** 

### 8 **MR. SACHS: That's 10-6. Sorry.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That's** 

### 10 **okay. Maybe we just hold off and see.** 

### 11 **MS. FOX: Yes.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Items 10-2** 

### 13 **through 10-5, additional comments here on** 

### 14 **these items in this box? I will just give** 

### 15 **you a moment.** 

### 16 **Yes, Frank.** 

### 17 **MR. STANONIK: I'm not really** 

### 18 **sure if this is the place where it fits or** 

### 19 **not but it triggered me so I am going to** 

### 20 **bring it up anyhow.** 

### 21 **You know you talk about 10-4** 

### 22 **talks about maintenance repair costs and so**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 114**  **1 and so on. There is a -- I honestly don't**  

### 2 **know if it has been totally resolved yet or** 

### 3 **not but there is a significant EPA rulemaking** 

### 4 **to address emissions from boilers that are** 

### 5 **either major sources or area sources.** 

### 6 **And the last time I looked at** 

### 7 **that rulemaking in certain cases if the** 

### 8 **boiler fit one of those categories and some** 

### 9 **of those I think would be space heating** 

### 10 **boilers, there in fact would be the EPA** 

### 11 **requirement for I believe it was an annual** 

### 12 **tune up to supposedly maintain the emissions** 

### 13 **level or whatever.** 

### 14 **I guess my question here is, is** 

### 15 **the intent in the analysis to factor in let's** 

### 16 **say the effect of this EPA rulemaking or it** 

### 17 **is kind of like well, it is going to be the** 

### 18 **same regardless?** 

### 19 **MS. FOX: I believe that that** 

### 20 **would be a cost, the boiler user -- I am** 

### 21 **guessing that would probably fall under a** 

### 22 **maintenance cost for the boiler user. So in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 115**  **1 that case, it would be considered -- we will**  

### 2 **look into that further.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Provided** 

### 4 **the rule is in place.** 

### 5 **MS. FOX: Right.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Right. So** 

### 7 **it is not proposed but it is --** 

### 8 **MR. STANONIK: Oh, it has been** 

### 9 **finalized. And in my last recollection it is** 

### 10 **has been bouncing back and forth in the** 

### 11 **courts or whatever and I obviously haven't** 

### 12 **remembered where the dust settled.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 14 **thank you.** 

### 15 **Harvey Sachs.** 

### 16 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 17 **One other exogenous factor to the** 

### 18 **one Frank mentioned has come up. New York** 

### 19 **and a number of the New England states have** 

### 20 **announced schedules for requirements of 15** 

### 21 **ppm sulfur or less, just like truck diesel** 

### 22 **for residential boilers. And I think it is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 116**  **1 important to see if they are on a parallel**  

### 2 **track that I just haven't looked at for** 

### 3 **requiring that fuel, which is higher cost, so** 

### 4 **it will affect the life-cycle cost for** 

### 5 **commercial boilers as well.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Is that** 

### 7 **for fuel oil only?** 

### 8 **MR. SACHS: Yes.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 10 **MR. SACHS: So like fuel oil, it** 

### 11 **is not going to affect the semi-solid sludge** 

### 12 **that some people are still able to burn.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 14 **Phillip.** 

### 15 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 16 **HTP.** 

### 17 **I think this would probably be** 

### 18 **the best place for me to put a plug into the** 

### 19 **Department that it would improve efficiency** 

### 20 **and safety a lot if there were federal** 

### 21 **requirements for annual maintenance of** 

### 22 **boilers. That would address a lot of issues.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 117**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,**  

### 2 **thank you. Final comments here, those of you** 

### 3 **that are with us on the web?** 

### 4 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,** 

### 5 **Lochinvar.** 

### 6 **Regarding Item 10-4, a couple of** 

### 7 **weeks ago Geoff Halley and I were** 

### 8 **participating in an ASME CSD-1 meeting and** 

### 9 **there was significant discussion related to** 

### 10 **the use of digester gas. And it also spun** 

### 11 **off into the quality of natural gas that is** 

### 12 **provided nationwide and the level of** 

### 13 **moisture, the BTU content, the contaminants** 

### 14 **that could cause damage and increase** 

### 15 **maintenance costs.** 

### 16 **And this is more a question to** 

### 17 **DOE of is there -- what would be the** 

### 18 **appropriate entity within the federal** 

### 19 **government to start a discussion about** 

### 20 **designing and managing the quality of natural** 

### 21 **gas that is fed to boilers to help to control** 

### 22 **and reduce maintenance costs.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 118**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Alex**  

### 2 **Lekov, please. Yes, the microphone.** 

### 3 **MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence** 

### 4 **Berkeley National Laboratory.** 

### 5 **In regards to the last comment, I** 

### 6 **wonder what is the heat content of the type** 

### 7 **of gas you just mentioned because from a test** 

### 8 **procedure point of view, there is some range** 

### 9 **which allows a variation of the heat content.** 

### 10 **So, if this is too low or too** 

### 11 **high, there is such a possibility?** 

### 12 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,** 

### 13 **Lochinvar.** 

### 14 **There is not a specific** 

### 15 **temperature range -- or sorry -- heat** 

### 16 **capacity. That is one of the concerns that** 

### 17 **we have is what is an allowable range for** 

### 18 **what we call natural gas that is applied to** 

### 19 **customers.** 

### 20 **So it has to go beyond that to** 

### 21 **other contaminants such as sulfur and to a** 

### 22 **very large extent, the water content and the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 119**  **1 fuel that supplies natural gas.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Chuck** 

### 3 **Foster.** 

### 4 **MR. FOSTER: Chuck Foster, Edison** 

### 5 **Electric Institute.** 

### 6 **Speaking for myself, I had a good** 

### 7 **bit of experience not so much with digester,** 

### 8 **although a little bit, but with landfill gas.** 

### 9 **And the heat content of landfill gas is** 

### 10 **generally assumed to be about 500 BTUs per** 

### 11 **cubic foot, which is about roughly half of** 

### 12 **what we think pipeline gas is, 1,029 is what** 

### 13 **I usually figure for natural gas.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 15 **thank you. Frank.** 

### 16 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 17 **AHRI.** 

### 18 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss.** 

### 19 **MR. STANONIK: Go ahead, Jeff.** 

### 20 **MR. KLEISS: I was going to say** 

### 21 **please don't be too thrown off by the fact** 

### 22 **that I brought digester gas into this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 120**  **1 conversation. The only reason I brought that**  

### 2 **in was because it led to discussion about** 

### 3 **natural gas that is provided through the** 

### 4 **pipeline to appliance and that there are** 

### 5 **cases where digester gas has been mixed into** 

### 6 **the natural gas with the limited treatment** 

### 7 **that would remove the moisture and other** 

### 8 **contaminants that can increase maintenance** 

### 9 **costs on appliances.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Got you.** 

### 11 **MR. KLEISS: But my focus is** 

### 12 **about the natural gas pipelines, the quality** 

### 13 **of conventional natural gas to appliances.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 15 **Jeff, we got it. Thank you.** 

### 16 **MR. KLEISS: Thanks.** 

### 17 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 18 **AHRI.** 

### 19 **And I think Jeff's last comment** 

### 20 **may actually help clarify some things. There** 

### 21 **was lots of activity going on maybe ten years** 

### 22 **ago about defining pipeline quality natural**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 121**  **1 gas. I am not aware of any gas utility in**  

### 2 **the U.S. that would be mixing digester gas** 

### 3 **with the gas it is delivering to its** 

### 4 **customers. So I suspect that what was being** 

### 5 **suggested here was possibly some operation** 

### 6 **where, in fact, they had their own supply of** 

### 7 **natural gas and they were supplementing it** 

### 8 **with digester gas or they had made some** 

### 9 **arrangements with the local utility to inject** 

### 10 **some of this digester gas.** 

### 11 **That just to me is not a normal** 

### 12 **mode of operation for a natural gas utility.** 

### 13 **And there are -- and some of this, by the** 

### 14 **way, was done with some coordination with** 

### 15 **DOE. DOE has an Office of Gas and Oil or** 

### 16 **something like that. Yes, so that there was** 

### 17 **some coordination there.** 

### 18 **I think the bottom line here is** 

### 19 **there may not officially be a definition of** 

### 20 **natural gas but I would say I am very** 

### 21 **comfortable with the vast majority of natural** 

### 22 **gas utilities in the U.S. are well aware of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 122**  **1 what are the generally accepted guidelines**  

### 2 **for what would be considered natural gas that** 

### 3 **can be put into the pipeline without risk of** 

### 4 **affecting the burner tips at the end of it.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 6 **Other comments on this series of questions?** 

### 7 **Harvey Sachs.** 

### 8 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs.** 

### 9 **Jeff Kleiss as opposed to Geoff Halley, I** 

### 10 **guess what I am thinking is that it is just** 

### 11 **reinforcing what you said that the pipeline** 

### 12 **gas is a matter of concern but as long as the** 

### 13 **test procedure deals the BTU content, it is** 

### 14 **something that is going to be hard to deal** 

### 15 **with in this rulemaking and the use of** 

### 16 **alternative fuels would seem to be a warranty** 

### 17 **issue for the manufacturer and the customer** 

### 18 **as in this unit not certified for use with** 

### 19 **anything containing more than X percent** 

### 20 **moisture -- any fuel containing more than X** 

### 21 **percent moisture or Y percent sulfur or** 

### 22 **whatever. Because these things are going to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 123**  **1 be relatively rare in the commercial boiler**  

### 2 **field. And I am not sure we want DOE to get** 

### 3 **involved.** 

### 4 **MR. KLEISS: I think -- I am not** 

### 5 **sure I am following exactly what you are** 

### 6 **saying or asking. My comment is related to** 

### 7 **the Item 10-4 is asking about repair issues,** 

### 8 **cost of repairs. I am trying to bring to** 

### 9 **light what I have been told is something that** 

### 10 **is happening in our gas supply system that** 

### 11 **may be increasing the cost of repairs and** 

### 12 **maintenance or whatever that is not directly** 

### 13 **affected to the efficiency of the appliances** 

### 14 **but is something that I am concerned there** 

### 15 **might need to be some federal oversight or** 

### 16 **control.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 18 **thanks, Jeff.** 

### 19 **MR. SACHS: Thanks. That helps,** 

### 20 **Jeff.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 22 **let's proceed.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 124**  **1 MS. FOX: Okay. So, continuing**  

### 2 **on for life-cycle cost comment requests, Item** 

### 3 **10-6, DOE requests comment on the methodology** 

### 4 **used to determine equipment lifetimes.** 

### 5 **Item 10-7, DOE seeks input on its** 

### 6 **planned approach for estimating discount** 

### 7 **rates.** 

### 8 **And Item 10-8, DOE requests data** 

### 9 **on boiler efficiency distribution and** 

### 10 **welcomes comment on the degree of possible** 

### 11 **improvement changes over the next five to ten** 

### 12 **years as a result of market forces or** 

### 13 **industry trends.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's** 

### 15 **start with lifetimes. Who can comment on** 

### 16 **that? Phillip.** 

### 17 **MR. STEPHENS: Thank you. I get** 

### 18 **to ask my question now.** 

### 19 **Yes, I am interested to learn** 

### 20 **more about how the Department plans to** 

### 21 **identify the Weibull parameters for** 

### 22 **commercial packaged boilers as a product**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 125**  **1 class.**  

### 2 **MS. FOX: Alex, can you speak to** 

### 3 **this?** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Alex** 

### 5 **Lekov.** 

### 6 **MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence** 

### 7 **Berkeley National Laboratory.** 

### 8 **Commonly we are utilizing a** 

### 9 **number of sources. And from these sources we** 

### 10 **have compiled a distribution of variables** 

### 11 **based on such data set we will try to develop** 

### 12 **a function usually in the shape of Weibull.** 

### 13 **That is kind of the general** 

### 14 **explanation that I could provide at this** 

### 15 **time.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey, go** 

### 17 **ahead.** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: Alex, this is Harvey** 

### 19 **Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 20 **And I have enormous respect for** 

### 21 **the difficulty of what you are trying to do.** 

### 22 **Well over a decade ago, I was involved in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 126**  **1 ASHRAE technical committee that deals with**  

### 2 **equipment lifetime. And several things came** 

### 3 **out of my experience with that which utterly** 

### 4 **shocked me.** 

### 5 **One of them is that some of the** 

### 6 **data on various products dated back to the** 

### 7 **'30s and some of it was somewhat more recent.** 

### 8 **But in general, it is a backward looking** 

### 9 **process of how long did stuff that has** 

### 10 **already died last. And given that for this** 

### 11 **product class we have likely had shifts to** 

### 12 **less frequent cast iron boilers and more** 

### 13 **frequent alternative technologies that are** 

### 14 **likely to have a different lifetime, I would** 

### 15 **certainly urge you to start by looking at** 

### 16 **what vintages were covered in the most recent** 

### 17 **ASHRAE update and I suspect that you will** 

### 18 **also find that the sample size is maybe one** 

### 19 **to ten percent as big as would be needed for** 

### 20 **any kind of confidence. The ASHRAE** 

### 21 **tables, as heartfelt and well-meaning as they** 

### 22 **are, are designed to provide butt cover for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 127**  **1 designers doing life-cycle. They are not**  

### 2 **designed to reflect the actual conditions in** 

### 3 **the industry.** 

### 4 **MR. LEKOV: Thank you, Harvey.** 

### 5 **Just to highlight that, Danielle mentioned it** 

### 6 **both times, that any data related to the 10-** 

### 7 **15 years marketing trends lifetime, including** 

### 8 **lifetime would be really appreciated. As you** 

### 9 **said, this is what is lacking.** 

### 10 **The technology has changed and** 

### 11 **there is a possibility that some of this,** 

### 12 **perhaps, has changed as well.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank.** 

### 14 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 15 **AHRI.** 

### 16 **I picked up something else in** 

### 17 **this conversation here. I think that --** 

### 18 **well, let's say that boilers that were** 

### 19 **installed maybe 30 years ago or so or maybe** 

### 20 **even 20 years ago, there is certainly some** 

### 21 **percentage of those installations where the** 

### 22 **boiler probably wasn't changed out, but in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 128**  **1 fact significant innards of the thing were**  

### 2 **changed out. You know a new burner may have** 

### 3 **been put in, a new burner system controls. I** 

### 4 **mean for let's say in the old days, I mean** 

### 5 **that would be a common thing that if you had** 

### 6 **this fairly large piece of equipment in some** 

### 7 **room somewhere in this building. And rather** 

### 8 **than replace the whole thing, it was much** 

### 9 **more the norm to essentially, if you will,** 

### 10 **replace the major components of it.** 

### 11 **And so in that sense there is a** 

### 12 **certain lifetime of the boiler, if you will.** 

### 13 **And I think what Harvey was saying is but if** 

### 14 **you look at what the mix of products looks** 

### 15 **like today, and especially certainly some of** 

### 16 **the smaller size commercial boilers that are** 

### 17 **relatively compact, the concept of oh, well,** 

### 18 **I am just going to maintain this product for** 

### 19 **30 or 40 years simply by changing out** 

### 20 **components doesn't have the same application.** 

### 21 **And to Alex's concern about the** 

### 22 **data, I am not sure where you can find this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 129**  **1 but it seems to me that there should be some**  

### 2 **way to get a sense to what extent let's say** 

### 3 **major overhaul of existing boiler** 

### 4 **installations is still going on where they** 

### 5 **basically do put in a new burner or new** 

### 6 **burner controls or major components but, in** 

### 7 **fact, it is still let's say the same pressure** 

### 8 **vessel. I would suspect that that is** 

### 9 **happening less frequently but that is just** 

### 10 **intuitive.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: What about** 

### 12 **10-8? Can you say do boilers correspond to** 

### 13 **like vintages where there is kind of a mid** 

### 14 **range of efficiencies that are predictable?** 

### 15 **So is that way too systematic? And also can** 

### 16 **you speculate on the degree of improvement in** 

### 17 **the next five or ten year?** 

### 18 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 19 **AHRI. I mean, there is no question that the** 

### 20 **distribution of efficiency has changed and is** 

### 21 **moving. There are more condensing boilers,** 

### 22 **commercial boilers being sold and installed.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 130**  **1 As I mentioned, to the extent that we will be**  

### 2 **able to provide you data, that is the type of** 

### 3 **data we can provide, if we can show it for** 

### 4 **the last whatever five to ten years hopefully** 

### 5 **can help answer that question.** 

### 6 **But it has been a while, actually** 

### 7 **it is more than a while. You could even just** 

### 8 **as a barometer, and again by no means** 

### 9 **suggesting that that model availability** 

### 10 **necessarily relates to shipments. But if you** 

### 11 **were to just track let's say going back seven** 

### 12 **or eight years how many manufacturers offered** 

### 13 **condensing commercial boilers and looked at** 

### 14 **it today, you would clearly see that there** 

### 15 **has been a significant increase in the number** 

### 16 **of models available and the number of** 

### 17 **manufacturers that provide those models.** 

### 18 **Again, that is a barometer that I** 

### 19 **would by no means suggest that tells you what** 

### 20 **the distribution is. But that is kind of** 

### 21 **where there is smoke there is clearly fire** 

### 22 **here.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 131**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, any**  

### 2 **other comments on that? We haven't -- and no** 

### 3 **one has addressed discount rates yet.** 

### 4 **Harvey.** 

### 5 **MR. SACHS: I did talk about** 

### 6 **discount rates.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Did you?** 

### 8 **I apologize.** 

### 9 **MR. SACHS: Were you asleep like** 

### 10 **me?** 

### 11 **(Laughter.)** 

### 12 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and it** 

### 13 **occurred to me and I could be wrong, that for** 

### 14 **the larger boilers, there is a small finite** 

### 15 **number of people who provide the vast** 

### 16 **majority of the burner assemblies. And if** 

### 17 **confidential information could be used from** 

### 18 **them, it gives us an index of the ratio of** 

### 19 **burner sales to new product shipments that** 

### 20 **may get toward a very rough estimate of what** 

### 21 **Frank was suggesting. And I have no idea if** 

### 22 **there is -- I can think of two. There may be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 132**  **1 enough more that we could do this without**  

### 2 **confidentiality issues. But it would** 

### 3 **certainly seem to be a train that might be** 

### 4 **worth looking at.** 

### 5 **MR. FOSTER: The comment about** 

### 6 **potentially getting some data on equipment** 

### 7 **lifetimes, I know our colleagues over at** 

### 8 **BOMA, most of them keep really good** 

### 9 **statistics at the commercial buildings. We** 

### 10 **might be able to check with Ron Burton or** 

### 11 **somebody like that over there at BOMA and see** 

### 12 **if they would be able to provide the** 

### 13 **estimated lifetimes.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Anything** 

### 15 **else you wanted to pursue?** 

### 16 **MS. FOX: I'm good.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, we** 

### 18 **are moving on.** 

### 19 **MS. FOX: Okay, great. So next I** 

### 20 **will talk about the shipments analysis, which** 

### 21 **is an input to the national impact analysis.** 

### 22 **The purpose of the shipments analysis is to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 133**  **1 project commercial packaged boiler shipments**  

### 2 **in the base case and standards cases, in** 

### 3 **order to calculate the effects of amended** 

### 4 **standards on energy savings and the present** 

### 5 **value of savings, as well as future** 

### 6 **manufacturer cash flows.** 

### 7 **Here, DOE plans project shipments** 

### 8 **of commercial packaged boilers by accounting** 

### 9 **for sales in the two primary market segments:** 

### 10 **the replacements market and new construction** 

### 11 **market.** 

### 12 **The shipments model relies on** 

### 13 **multiple data sources, including** 

### 14 **manufacturers and industry organizations,** 

### 15 **national market reports, and publicly** 

### 16 **available sources.** 

### 17 **And so I have listed in Item 11-** 

### 18 **1, DOE welcomes comment about the shipments** 

### 19 **projection methodology.** 

### 20 **Item 11-2, DOE welcomes input on** 

### 21 **the selection of appropriate economic drivers** 

### 22 **and sources of data for historical shipment.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 134**  **1 Item 11-3, DOE seeks historical**  

### 2 **commercial packaged boilers shipments data,** 

### 3 **disaggregated by equipment class and** 

### 4 **efficiency level.** 

### 5 **And Item 11-4, DOE seeks input on** 

### 6 **the potential impact of amended standards on** 

### 7 **boiler shipments.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I'm** 

### 9 **waiting for comments. So comments here?** 

### 10 **Nothing? Nothing here. Okay.** 

### 11 **MS. FOX: Okay. So next we have** 

### 12 **the national impact analysis or NIA.** 

### 13 **The purpose of the NIA is to** 

### 14 **assess the aggregate effects of the national** 

### 15 **level of potential amended standards for each** 

### 16 **equipment class, in terms of national energy** 

### 17 **savings and net present value.** 

### 18 **Here, DOE plans to apply a boiler** 

### 19 **efficiency distribution to the shipments** 

### 20 **projects in order to determine energy use in** 

### 21 **the base case and various standards cases.** 

### 22 **DOE does calculate annual NES, national**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 135**  **1 energy savings, by taking the difference in**  

### 2 **energy use between the base case and the** 

### 3 **standards cases.** 

### 4 **And DOE calculates net present** 

### 5 **value as the difference between the present** 

### 6 **value of operating cost savings and the** 

### 7 **present value of total installed costs for** 

### 8 **each of the standards cases.** 

### 9 **So listed in Item 12-1, DOE seeks** 

### 10 **comment on appropriate assumptions to use for** 

### 11 **the long-run changes in boiler efficiency** 

### 12 **independent of amended standards.** 

### 13 **And Item 12-2, DOE requests** 

### 14 **comment on whether to pursue a roll-up or a** 

### 15 **shift approach for the efficiency** 

### 16 **distribution determination.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes,** 

### 18 **Chuck.** 

### 19 **MR. FOSTER: Chuck Foster, EEI.** 

### 20 **Typically in these rulemakings,** 

### 21 **as part of the net present value, there are** 

### 22 **some values given to environmental**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 136**  **1 attributes, for instance, a savings of NO** 

**x** 

### 2 **and SO. More recently, those values have**

**x** 

### 3 **been overtaken by the value of carbon. And** 

### 4 **as we all know recently here in Washington,** 

### 5 **we have had the controversy -- maybe that is** 

### 6 **not the right word but we had a discussion** 

### 7 **over a revised carbon value report by joint** 

### 8 **agency on the social cost of carbon.** 

### 9 **Can you give us a brief outline** 

### 10 **as to how DOE intends to value carbon in this** 

### 11 **rulemaking?** 

### 12 **MS. FOX: Yes, I will discuss** 

### 13 **that a little later on in the -- we have an** 

### 14 **emissions analysis and monetization of** 

### 15 **emissions reduction.** 

### 16 **MR. FOSTER: Okay, fair enough.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments** 

### 18 **on 12-1 and 12-2? Long range changes in** 

### 19 **boiler efficiency independent of the amended** 

### 20 **energy conservation standard.** 

### 21 **MR. STANONIK: Doug, Frank** 

### 22 **Stanonik, AHRI.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 137**  **1 On this 12-1, I think there is a**  

### 2 **change in approach to boiler installations** 

### 3 **that all have some relevancy here and we were** 

### 4 **talking a little about during the break. I** 

### 5 **think -- not I think. There are more** 

### 6 **companies that are promoting an approach to** 

### 7 **installing boiler systems where you use** 

### 8 **multiple boilers and one or more of the** 

### 9 **boilers may be sized to handle the majority** 

### 10 **of the heating load, which is going to be** 

### 11 **less than the worst day, less than the** 

### 12 **designed degree day. And then you install an** 

### 13 **additional boiler that is specifically there** 

### 14 **to handle those -- to be fired on the coldest** 

### 15 **days of the year when you need that extra** 

### 16 **heat.** 

### 17 **And in fact in ASHRAE standard** 

### 18 **90.1, the 2013 edition, there was actually in** 

### 19 **there now some language that talks about** 

### 20 **boiler turn down, once you get into system, I** 

### 21 **think, over a million. You know, unless I am** 

### 22 **confusing things which is maybe, it does**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 138**  **1 recognize that you can do that either with**  

### 2 **just a boiler operating at a certain** 

### 3 **efficiency or a combination of boilers.** 

### 4 **But I think the point here is** 

### 5 **that this looking at what would things look** 

### 6 **like if we don't have amended standards. I** 

### 7 **think the analysis is going to have to factor** 

### 8 **in that it is just not a question of okay** 

### 9 **what will be the efficiencies of products** 

### 10 **being installed, but in fact, there may be** 

### 11 **some changes in the size of products** 

### 12 **installed, which again has from a systems** 

### 13 **standpoint, will have some changes relative** 

### 14 **to how things may have been in the past. And** 

### 15 **I think that is going to have to be worked** 

### 16 **into it somehow.** 

### 17 **And you know, a basic example, if** 

### 18 **let's say there was an application that** 

### 19 **needed on the worst, coldest day of the year,** 

### 20 **a design temperature that required a** 

### 21 **10,000,000 BTU boiler, well again, some of** 

### 22 **the approaches being promoted by**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 139**  **1 manufacturers say well, wait a minute. For**  

### 2 **the less than coldest days I can meet this** 

### 3 **load with let's just say a 6,000,000 BTU** 

### 4 **boiler and then on those coldest days, my** 

### 5 **back up only needs to be this additional** 

### 6 **4,000,000 BTU unit. And that is attractive** 

### 7 **for a variety of reasons. But again, not** 

### 8 **knowing the exact numbers, in some cases, the** 

### 9 **more economical choice for whoever is** 

### 10 **purchasing those products, too.** 

### 11 **So again, the point here is just** 

### 12 **not a difference in what does the mix of** 

### 13 **efficiencies look like. It may actually be a** 

### 14 **mix of what the size of the boilers are, in** 

### 15 **addition to efficiency.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 17 **thank you. Jim?** 

### 18 **MR. SCHNORR: This is Jim Schnorr** 

### 19 **with Burnham Holdings.** 

### 20 **I would further comment that we** 

### 21 **would also most likely see different types of** 

### 22 **boilers, not only different sizes, but we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 140**  **1 would see a mix of hybrid systems of**  

### 2 **condensing and non-condensing technologies.** 

### 3 **Further expanding on the comments** 

### 4 **of my colleague here, we feel this is a** 

### 5 **growing application and that system** 

### 6 **efficiency should definitely be further** 

### 7 **looked into. It is not only the efficiency** 

### 8 **of these appliances but it is how they are** 

### 9 **applied.** 

### 10 **And although it hasn't been** 

### 11 **talked here, putting highly efficient boilers** 

### 12 **and systems that cannot run at lower** 

### 13 **temperatures, their efficiencies are very** 

### 14 **similar to non-condensing technologies. And** 

### 15 **we would encourage the DOE to look at overall** 

### 16 **system efficiencies as well.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 18 **thank you.** 

### 19 **Harvey Sachs.** 

### 20 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 21 **Supporting Mr. Schnorr's comment,** 

### 22 **I will submit to the record an article by Tom**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 141**  **1 Durkin published in the ASHRAE Journal on**  

### 2 **looking at some of these impacts of actually** 

### 3 **modifying the balance of the system on the** 

### 4 **distribution side to accommodate condensing** 

### 5 **boilers and getting very large savings in** 

### 6 **schools as a result of the changes.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Final** 

### 8 **comments here? Okay.** 

### 9 **MS. FOX: Okay, so next we will** 

### 10 **present the components of the NOPR stage of** 

### 11 **the analysis.** 

### 12 **Okay, so the NOPR starts with a** 

### 13 **revision of the preliminary analysis. And** 

### 14 **then additionally, DOE assesses a number of** 

### 15 **other impacts as listed here. We will start** 

### 16 **with the life-cycle cost subgroup analysis.** 

### 17 **So, for the LCC consumer subgroup** 

### 18 **analysis, the purpose here is to analyze the** 

### 19 **economic impacts of amended standards on** 

### 20 **subgroups of boiler end-users who are likely** 

### 21 **to be disproportionately impacted, compared** 

### 22 **with the general population.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 142**  **1 Here, DOE plans to utilize the**  

### 2 **LCC spreadsheet model to analyze the LCC for** 

### 3 **those subgroups by sampling inputs specific** 

### 4 **to that subgroup.** 

### 5 **And as requested at Item 13-1,** 

### 6 **DOE requests input on what consumer subgroups** 

### 7 **are appropriate to evaluate for commercial** 

### 8 **packaged boilers.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank.** 

### 10 **MR. STANONIK: This one has got me** 

### 11 **a little confused. I mean clearly when we** 

### 12 **are talking about residential products you** 

### 13 **have some identifiable subgroups, whether it** 

### 14 **is low income individuals or elderly people** 

### 15 **or whatever. And there is many rulemakings** 

### 16 **where those folks get looked at separately or** 

### 17 **their needs get looked at separately.** 

### 18 **But when I start thinking about** 

### 19 **commercial packaged boilers, which admittedly** 

### 20 **could be 305,000 BTUs but could also be, at** 

### 21 **least at the moment unless something changes,** 

### 22 **30,000,000 BTUs, all of a sudden I just don't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 143**  **1 think of a consumer subgroup because I just**  

### 2 **can't get my head around that kind of an idea** 

### 3 **of what would be a subgroup that would have** 

### 4 **somehow some different use or application of** 

### 5 **a 20,000,000 or 30,000,000 BTU boiler. I** 

### 6 **mean I just don't think it is there.** 

### 7 **What I guess I am trying is I** 

### 8 **think you just write this one off because I** 

### 9 **don't know what you do with it.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Chuck?** 

### 11 **MR. FOSTER: Yes, and I don't** 

### 12 **know either and so take this for what it is** 

### 13 **worth. But when I read it, I thought well** 

### 14 **maybe they were going try to define** 

### 15 **commercial building users and then industrial** 

### 16 **users and see if there was some perceived** 

### 17 **difference in utility or value to them.** 

### 18 **But I agree pretty much with what** 

### 19 **Frank said, that we don't have senior** 

### 20 **citizens who are going to be** 

### 21 **disproportionately impacted here.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 144**  **1 MS. FOX: Okay, so next, Michael**  

### 2 **will present the manufacturer --** 

### 3 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss.** 

### 4 **MS. FOX: Oh.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes,** 

### 6 **proceed.** 

### 7 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,** 

### 8 **Lochinivar, commenting on it.** 

### 9 **There are basically the regular** 

### 10 **commercial heating applications and then once** 

### 11 **you step outside of that, there are tons of** 

### 12 **different industrial applications, whether it** 

### 13 **is the 80 and fermentation of wine to lock** 

### 14 **down for train cars, the type of applications** 

### 15 **are so wide and varied that I don't know how** 

### 16 **you could get a test market.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 18 **MS. FOX: Okay, so now on to** 

### 19 **Michael.** 

### 20 **MR. DROESCH: So DOE conducts the** 

### 21 **manufacturer impact analysis or MIA to** 

### 22 **identify the impact of energy conservation**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 145**  **1 standards on manufacturers both qualitatively**  

### 2 **and quantitatively.** 

### 3 **The team beings by developing an** 

### 4 **industry cash flow model, called the** 

### 5 **Government Regulatory Impact Model or GRIM** 

### 6 **that takes into account any investment in** 

### 7 **revenue changes that the industry might** 

### 8 **experience, as a result of more stringent** 

### 9 **standards.** 

### 10 **Then DOE will interview** 

### 11 **manufacturers to refine the GRIM and conduct** 

### 12 **a qualitative analysis of any additional** 

### 13 **impacts on manufacturers.** 

### 14 **DOE welcomes comments on the** 

### 15 **items listed here with respect to the** 

### 16 **manufacturer impact analysis. In particular,** 

### 17 **in Item 14-1, DOE requests feedback on** 

### 18 **whether there are any manufacturer subgroups** 

### 19 **that need to be considered. And in Item 14-** 

### 20 **3, DOE also welcomes comments on any** 

### 21 **cumulative regulatory issues that it should** 

### 22 **consider.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 146**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments**  

### 2 **here? Okay.** 

### 3 **MR. DROESCH: All right, I will** 

### 4 **hand it back to Danielle to discuss the** 

### 5 **emissions analysis.** 

### 6 **MR. STANONIK: Doug, I'm sorry.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Frank** 

### 8 **Stanonik.** 

### 9 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 10 **AHRI.** 

### 11 **Just one comment on 14-3.** 

### 12 **Perhaps I am stating the obvious, but I think** 

### 13 **as I mentioned earlier, the fact that there** 

### 14 **will be a parallel test procedure revision** 

### 15 **ongoing with this, although recognizing the** 

### 16 **effective dates may be different, it is** 

### 17 **certainly going to contribute some regulatory** 

### 18 **burden and the fact that there is ongoing a** 

### 19 **very active process to try and, I will say** 

### 20 **finalize, or negotiate requirements for the** 

### 21 **certification and enforcement and potentially** 

### 22 **verification of efficiencies of commercial**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 147**  **1 boilers.**  

### 2 **Once that it is all done, there** 

### 3 **will clearly be a regulatory burden that** 

### 4 **needs to be factored into this whole process.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 6 **thank you. Yes, Phillip.** 

### 7 **MR. STEPHENS: From HTP's** 

### 8 **perspective, every product we make is up for** 

### 9 **review or update of minimum efficiencies or** 

### 10 **method of test within the next few years.** 

### 11 **This rotation that we are currently on is a** 

### 12 **tremendous burden to manufacturers. The fact** 

### 13 **that many manufacturers who make water** 

### 14 **heaters also make boilers. Any manufacturers** 

### 15 **that make water heaters also make furnaces.** 

### 16 **It is a tremendous burden to the** 

### 17 **manufacturers. If we could change this** 

### 18 **rotation schedule somewhat, it would be** 

### 19 **greatly appreciated.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 21 **thank you.** 

### 22 **MS. FOX: Okay. So, for the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 148**  **1 emissions analysis, DOE characterizes the**  

### 2 **environmental impacts of amended standards.** 

### 3 **In estimating the physical** 

### 4 **reductions of emissions, DOE intends to use** 

### 5 **the emissions effects projected a version of** 

### 6 **the National Energy Modeling System, NEMS-BT.** 

### 7 **DOE plans to consider, to the** 

### 8 **extent feasible, reduction in power sector** 

### 9 **emissions of carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxides,** 

### 10 **sulfur dioxide, mercury, methane, nitrous** 

### 11 **oxide, and particulate matter.** 

### 12 **DOE plans to also consider** 

### 13 **emissions impacts in fuel production** 

### 14 **activities, such as extracting, processing,** 

### 15 **and transporting of fuels for the fuels used** 

### 16 **in power plants.** 

### 17 **And DOE plans to account for the** 

### 18 **emissions from boiler combustion at the** 

### 19 **building site.** 

### 20 **And as listed in Item 15-1, DOE** 

### 21 **seeks input about its approach for conducting** 

### 22 **the emissions analysis.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 149**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey**  

### 2 **Sachs.** 

### 3 **MR. SACHS: Danielle, I assume** 

### 4 **that the two middle bullets dealing with** 

### 5 **power sector emissions will only get any** 

### 6 **attention if electric boilers are included.** 

### 7 **I'm just wondering if you are planning to** 

### 8 **look at power plant emissions and stuff for** 

### 9 **gas and oil boilers in this analysis.** 

### 10 **MS. FOX: I believe that is the** 

### 11 **case. I will have to check back and make** 

### 12 **sure that everything -- I think everything is** 

### 13 **-- we tried to cover everything in this type** 

### 14 **of emissions analysis.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Alex Lekov.** 

### 16 **MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence** 

### 17 **Berkeley National Laboratory.** 

### 18 **So, Harvey is correct. We are** 

### 19 **talking here mostly about gas and oil** 

### 20 **boilers. However, those boilers use also** 

### 21 **electricity. They have components that just** 

### 22 **electricity. So, this aspect will be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 150**  **1 considered in terms of emissions.**  

### 2 **There is also the much smaller** 

### 3 **impact, the emissions associated with** 

### 4 **manufacturing of the natural gas.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey.** 

### 6 **MR. SACHS: I appreciate the need** 

### 7 **to check things off the list but given the --** 

### 8 **my guess is about the numbers of commercial** 

### 9 **boilers shift every year. The fraction of** 

### 10 **their source energy use attributable to their** 

### 11 **electrical consumption and the impact on** 

### 12 **national power plant emissions, if commercial** 

### 13 **boilers used no electricity, it is not clear** 

### 14 **to me how much effort that part of the** 

### 15 **analysis should take in what Chuck called an** 

### 16 **era of constrained resources. It may well be** 

### 17 **that I am underestimating by a factor of ten** 

### 18 **or a hundred the emissions impact of gas and** 

### 19 **oil commercial boilers. But I just am asking** 

### 20 **that we look at the magnitude before we get** 

### 21 **into the details of the analysis.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Chuck**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 151**  **1 Foster.**  

### 2 **MR. FOSTER: Chuck Foster, EEI.** 

### 3 **And I would concur with Harvey's comment** 

### 4 **there.** 

### 5 **In addition, I would concur with** 

### 6 **Harvey's comments and, in the event that the** 

### 7 **Department decides to use to address electric** 

### 8 **boilers, which I have recommended against,** 

### 9 **then I think these two bullets would be** 

### 10 **appropriate.** 

### 11 **But in the absence of that, I** 

### 12 **believe that the electricity consumption will** 

### 13 **be beyond noise in the analysis and resources** 

### 14 **would be expended that could be put someplace** 

### 15 **else more productively.** 

### 16 **I do note that as between the** 

### 17 **last two bullets, there seems to be a lack of** 

### 18 **symmetry that if gas is taken, it looks like** 

### 19 **if gas is taken to a power plant, we are** 

### 20 **going to look upstream for emissions. But if** 

### 21 **that same gas instead goes to a boiler on** 

### 22 **site, we are not going to look upstream for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 152**  **1 emissions.**  

### 2 **I'm not sure if that is actually** 

### 3 **what the Department means or if there was a** 

### 4 **conscious effort to have a different approach** 

### 5 **for the use of the same gas.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 7 **thank you.** 

### 8 **Additional comments here?** 

### 9 **Phillip.** 

### 10 **MR. STEPHENS: You saw it in my** 

### 11 **face.** 

### 12 **Could we get some more background** 

### 13 **on particulate matter with gaseous fuels? Is** 

### 14 **there something I am missing?** 

### 15 **MS. FOX: I don't know. I don't** 

### 16 **know that -- Alex do you have anything to** 

### 17 **come on that? I'm not sure.** 

### 18 **MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence** 

### 19 **Berkeley National Laboratory.** 

### 20 **My only comment is that the** 

### 21 **particulate matters are one emission types** 

### 22 **that are always DOE has mandated to look at**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 153**  **1 those. So they are on the list.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Jim.** 

### 3 **MR. SCHNORR: Hi, Jim Schnorr with** 

### 4 **Burnham Holdings. If you could further** 

### 5 **clarify which of the particulate matter would** 

### 6 **have, in your opinion, ranking higher** 

### 7 **importance of those matters that are listed** 

### 8 **here.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Alex,** 

### 10 **anybody can correct me. But I am thinking** 

### 11 **that this is the Department's statutory** 

### 12 **mandate and so they need to consider it, even** 

### 13 **if it is going to be small and minuscule,** 

### 14 **whatever. So that is about why that is** 

### 15 **there, I am guessing.** 

### 16 **MR. SCHNORR: Jim. So for the** 

### 17 **record, one of the particulate matters** 

### 18 **doesn't have greater importance over another.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Oh, I** 

### 20 **don't know about that.** 

### 21 **MR. SCHNORR: Can anybody further** 

### 22 **clarify regarding particulate matter and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 154**  **1 which one may have more importance?**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: We are interested in** 

### 3 **point one.** 

### 4 **MR. SCHNORR: Thank you.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 6 **thank you, Jim.** 

### 7 **Okay, we are moving on.** 

### 8 **MS. FOX: Okay, so DOE is also** 

### 9 **mandated to report the monetary benefits of** 

### 10 **the emissions reductions of CO and NO from 2 x**  

### 11 **the amended standards.** 

### 12 **In estimating the monetary value** 

### 13 **of reduced emissions, DOE intends to use the** 

### 14 **most current social cost of carbon values, as** 

### 15 **developed by interagency reviews.** 

### 16 **DOE plans to multiply the CO 2**  

### 17 **emission reductions by the social cost of** 

### 18 **carbon value and then discount the value to** 

### 19 **calculate its present value.** 

### 20 **DOE also plans to estimate the** 

### 21 **potential monetary benefit of reduced NO**

**x** 

### 22 **emissions based on environmental impact**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 155**  **1 estimates found in the relevant scientific**  

### 2 **literature. These values are discounted to** 

### 3 **obtain a present value of three percent and** 

### 4 **seven percent, as in accordance with the OMB** 

### 5 **guidance.** 

### 6 **And although it may not be** 

### 7 **possible to do so at this time, DOE plans to** 

### 8 **investigate valuation methods for avoided** 

### 9 **SO, mercury, methane, nitrous oxide, and 2**  

### 10 **particulate matter emissions.** 

### 11 **And so as listed in Item 16-1,** 

### 12 **DOE requests comment on its approach for** 

### 13 **estimating monetary benefits of the** 

### 14 **associated emissions reductions.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey** 

### 16 **Sachs.** 

### 17 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs** 

### 18 **at ACEEE.** 

### 19 **And I am having a great deal of** 

### 20 **trouble with your second bullet of** 

### 21 **discounting CO emissions reduction values to 2**  

### 22 **get a net present value. The lifetime of CO 2**  **2**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 156**  **1 in the atmosphere is vastly longer than my**  

### 2 **life expectancy at birth, much less today.** 

### 3 **And I find myself befuddled how anyone would** 

### 4 **think that such a long-lived pollutant, and I** 

### 5 **use that term guardedly, could possibly be** 

### 6 **discounted when the carbon dioxide emitted** 

### 7 **today will still be in the atmosphere in a** 

### 8 **100 years, except that part of which is gone** 

### 9 **into acidifying the ocean. It is quite** 

### 10 **different from NO and SO.**

**x x** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 12 **thank you.** 

### 13 **Other comments on the** 

### 14 **Department's approach of estimating the** 

### 15 **monetary benefits?** 

### 16 **Yes, Phillip.** 

### 17 **MR. STEPHENS: Is there an** 

### 18 **estimated time frame when you conduct this** 

### 19 **analysis or is it unlimited into the future?** 

### 20 **MS. FOX: Oh, you are asking about** 

### 21 **the range, like the range of a time period** 

### 22 **for the emissions analysis?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 157**  **1 I know --**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Alex, do** 

### 3 **you --** 

### 4 **MS. FOX: I think so the** 

### 5 **emissions analysis considers the boilers in,** 

### 6 **usually it is the typical 30-year period that** 

### 7 **we look at during the analysis. So it would** 

### 8 **be the emissions reductions from the** 

### 9 **equipment shipped in that period. Is that** 

### 10 **what you are asking?** 

### 11 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional** 

### 13 **comments? Okay.** 

### 14 **MS. FOX: Okay, so next is the** 

### 15 **utility impact analysis. The purpose of the** 

### 16 **utility impact analysis is to assess the** 

### 17 **overall effects on domestic energy supplies** 

### 18 **that would result from the adoption of** 

### 19 **amended energy standards. Here, DOE proposes** 

### 20 **to use the Energy Information Agency's NEMS** 

### 21 **BT model as the basis of the utility impact** 

### 22 **analysis.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 158**  **1 DOE plans to model the energy**  

### 2 **savings impacts from amended standards using** 

### 3 **NEMS-BT to generate projections for the AEO** 

### 4 **Reference Case and additional cases.** 

### 5 **And the outputs of the utility** 

### 6 **impact analysis include projections of** 

### 7 **electricity generation and avoided capacity** 

### 8 **resulting from a comparison of the base case** 

### 9 **and standards cases.** 

### 10 **And as listed in Item 17-1, DOE** 

### 11 **welcomes input on its proposed approach to** 

### 12 **conducting the utility impact analysis.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments** 

### 14 **here?** 

### 15 **MS. FOX: Okay, the next is the** 

### 16 **employment impact analysis. The purpose of** 

### 17 **the employment impact analysis is to assess** 

### 18 **the overall effects on national employment** 

### 19 **from the adoption of amended standards at** 

### 20 **various levels. This includes both direct** 

### 21 **and indirect employment impacts.** 

### 22 **The direct employment impacts are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 159**  **1 estimated in the manufacturer impact**  

### 2 **analysis, whereas the indirect employment** 

### 3 **analysis here estimates the impacts on the** 

### 4 **national economy that result from shifting** 

### 5 **user expenditures among goods and services** 

### 6 **and changes in income and overall expenditure** 

### 7 **levels.** 

### 8 **Here, DOE plans to use the Impact** 

### 9 **of Sector Energy Technologies model of the** 

### 10 **evaluation of the indirect employment** 

### 11 **impacts.** 

### 12 **And listed in Item 18-1, DOE** 

### 13 **welcomes feedback on its proposed approach to** 

### 14 **assessing the national employment impacts.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank.** 

### 16 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 17 **AHRI.** 

### 18 **Just a quick comment. This issue** 

### 19 **of shifting employment from let's say new** 

### 20 **products to services which I would consider** 

### 21 **let's say maintenance or repair or whatever,** 

### 22 **I think in the case of commercial boilers, it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 160**  **1 is more important than perhaps for some other**  

### 2 **products that DOE does keep in mind that this** 

### 3 **industry already has a kind of a historical** 

### 4 **track record that once that boiler, that** 

### 5 **pressure vessel and everything else is in** 

### 6 **sight, it has been common to basically make** 

### 7 **whatever changes and other things you have to** 

### 8 **do to keep that particular piece of equipment** 

### 9 **running.** 

### 10 **And so, I think that because of** 

### 11 **that, there should be a little more** 

### 12 **sensitivity to picking levels that let's say** 

### 13 **if anything may encourage people to put in a** 

### 14 **new more efficient boiler rather than just** 

### 15 **trying to keep that old one running or** 

### 16 **whatever.** 

### 17 **And again, for the commercial** 

### 18 **boiler business, that has been I think more** 

### 19 **of a common practice. There just needs to be** 

### 20 **more sensitivity to that when DOE looks at** 

### 21 **this issue.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 161**  **1 Harvey Sachs.**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs.** 

### 3 **I certainly agree with the goals** 

### 4 **of the employment impact analysis. But in** 

### 5 **this particular market, which has relatively** 

### 6 **few employees, considering the size of the** 

### 7 **national economy which has a number of** 

### 8 **additional impacts, such as imports and** 

### 9 **exports, particularly in the smaller** 

### 10 **capacities, and which has some natural** 

### 11 **tendencies to invest in productivity** 

### 12 **improvements, the natural course of the** 

### 13 **industry would seem to be toward declining** 

### 14 **employment at constant output.** 

### 15 **And I am not sure how you take** 

### 16 **account in sensitivities of all of these** 

### 17 **factors as they affect a relatively small** 

### 18 **industry. It is an important one. But in** 

### 19 **terms of national employment totals, it** 

### 20 **sounds -- it intuitively seems to me that** 

### 21 **the uncertainties are at least as large as** 

### 22 **the impacts.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 162**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional**  

### 2 **comments?** 

### 3 **MS. FOX: Okay, so the last** 

### 4 **section of our NOPR analysis is the** 

### 5 **regulatory impact analysis, which** 

### 6 **investigates the national effects of non** 

### 7 **regulatory alternatives compared with the** 

### 8 **mandatory energy conservation standards.** 

### 9 **Here, DOE plans to use a modified** 

### 10 **NES spreadsheet model to consider the non** 

### 11 **regulatory scenarios. DOE plans to estimate** 

### 12 **the effects of non-regulatory scenarios based** 

### 13 **on experience with considered policies.** 

### 14 **And output will include NES and** 

### 15 **NPV of the non-regulatory alternatives.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments** 

### 17 **on regulatory impact analysis? Okay.** 

### 18 **So then, as we promised first** 

### 19 **thing this morning, now is another** 

### 20 **opportunity for anyone to make additional** 

### 21 **comments, raise issues that haven't been** 

### 22 **fully discussed so far in this meeting. And**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 163**  **1 let's hear from anyone now.**  

### 2 **Frank Stanonik.** 

### 3 **MR. STANONIK: Since I missed** 

### 4 **that discussion, I just wanted to briefly** 

### 5 **mention some things about the test procedure** 

### 6 **issues. And in particular, the BTS-2000,** 

### 7 **which at the moment is the AHRI standard that** 

### 8 **is at least the basis for the federal test** 

### 9 **procedure.** 

### 10 **We certainly are aware of the** 

### 11 **waivers that have been submitted and the** 

### 12 **issues that have been raised. And AHRI will** 

### 13 **be looking at those issues in determining** 

### 14 **whether revisions need to be made to BTS-2000** 

### 15 **to address some of those. It is certainly** 

### 16 **our intent that, as DOE goes forward with the** 

### 17 **rulemaking on revising the test procedures,** 

### 18 **it would be our intent to try and provide an** 

### 19 **updated document that DOE could continue to** 

### 20 **at least reference as a base document. And** 

### 21 **as we are doing that work, just make everyone** 

### 22 **aware, recognizing what our objective is, we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 164**  **1 certainly intend to and be, I will say more**  

### 2 **aggressive perhaps, or not aggressive but** 

### 3 **more aware that we will be inviting other** 

### 4 **interested parties, including DOE** 

### 5 **representatives to be involved in our** 

### 6 **activity to update BTS-2000.** 

### 7 **And then the other point I just** 

### 8 **want to make because it is important, we also** 

### 9 **are aware that in fact AHRI has an agreement** 

### 10 **with ASHRAE to develop Standard 155, which** 

### 11 **would ultimately replace BTS-2000. That is** 

### 12 **the standard test in rating commercial** 

### 13 **boilers.** 

### 14 **But under the current schedule** 

### 15 **and the situation as we see it, we don't** 

### 16 **really see that 155 could be done in time for** 

### 17 **DOE's schedule. So at least at the moment,** 

### 18 **our plan is to work on revising BTS-2000 to** 

### 19 **fit DOE's schedule, while at the same time** 

### 20 **recognizing that our ultimate goal is that in** 

### 21 **fact ASHRAE Standard 155 at some point, when** 

### 22 **it is finalized and completed, would replace**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 165**  **1 the BTS, let's say. Let's call it that.**  

### 2 **But I just wanted to take this** 

### 3 **opportunity to make everyone aware of where** 

### 4 **we are with this as far as AHRI and what we** 

### 5 **are planning to do.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 7 **thank you. Harvey.** 

### 8 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs,** 

### 9 **ACEEE.** 

### 10 **And a couple of process notes.** 

### 11 **One of them is to recognize and thank DOE** 

### 12 **that the format and processes have changed an** 

### 13 **awful lot in terms of these meetings, have** 

### 14 **changed an awful in the last few years. And** 

### 15 **I think DOE ought to get some recognition** 

### 16 **credit for that. It is a lot less user** 

### 17 **hostile than it used to be.** 

### 18 **Along those lines, one small** 

### 19 **further improvement might be to flag those** 

### 20 **items on this long checklist and template** 

### 21 **which are mandatory and which are at DOE's** 

### 22 **initiative, ones which are prescribed by**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 166**  **1 statute versus the ones which DOE can choose**  

### 2 **to examine or not.** 

### 3 **And the second point I want to** 

### 4 **make in closing is to appreciate that AHRI is** 

### 5 **trying to work on BTS-2000. I have had some** 

### 6 **offline discussions with Frank. But in terms** 

### 7 **of the public inners and DOE'S inners, it is** 

### 8 **important to note that the AHRI standards are** 

### 9 **not, at this time, ANSI compliant. They are** 

### 10 **not consensus standards. They do not include** 

### 11 **necessarily representatives of users and** 

### 12 **advocates, as opposed to the ASHRAE** 

### 13 **standards.** 

### 14 **We will do our best to work with** 

### 15 **AHRI as we have in the past but we are very** 

### 16 **concerned that if we move forward with a** 

### 17 **standard that does not have some indication** 

### 18 **of what I earlier called part-load efficiency** 

### 19 **for those units that have modulating two** 

### 20 **stage firing capability. We think that is** 

### 21 **absolutely required as a component of this** 

### 22 **rulemaking.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 167**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,**  

### 2 **thank you.** 

### 3 **Frank.** 

### 4 **MR. STANONIK: And again, while I** 

### 5 **apologize for not being here right at nine, I** 

### 6 **have a question. And if it was addressed** 

### 7 **earlier, then I can get the answer, I guess.** 

### 8 **But certainly one of the** 

### 9 **challenges that face us all right now in** 

### 10 **terms of this test procedure question is that** 

### 11 **there is no upper limit on what is covered.** 

### 12 **And so first I will ask, was that discussed** 

### 13 **this morning as to whether any thought was** 

### 14 **being given to establishing, let's call it,** 

### 15 **an upper limit of the scope? That is the** 

### 16 **first question.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Adam** 

### 18 **Darlington.** 

### 19 **MR. DARLINGTON: Yes, Frank,** 

### 20 **somebody did ask a question about that** 

### 21 **earlier. Basically recognizing it has come** 

### 22 **to light that there are some concerns about**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 168**  **1 the ability of the test procedure to even be**  

### 2 **used for some of these larger boilers. So we** 

### 3 **were basically asking just an open question** 

### 4 **about where is that limit. What can be tested** 

### 5 **on the test procedure? What might DOE need** 

### 6 **to look at you know possibly a different test** 

### 7 **method altogether for, if it doesn't work, if** 

### 8 **it can't be tested if it is too large.** 

### 9 **So yes, if you have thoughts on** 

### 10 **that now.** 

### 11 **MR. STANONIK: Well, so at the** 

### 12 **moment it is an open question. Actually no,** 

### 13 **I don't.** 

### 14 **Well, no I don't have any** 

### 15 **specific thoughts. I was actually going to** 

### 16 **ask that if the DOE had some, let's say, some** 

### 17 **preliminary thoughts as we are working on** 

### 18 **BTS-2000, it would be useful to have that** 

### 19 **information. But I guess at this point, we** 

### 20 **will take our own and other interested** 

### 21 **parties' advice as to whether we might work** 

### 22 **into the amended version of BTS-2000 limited**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 169**  **1 scope of coverage or whatever. We will look**  

### 2 **at that.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey.** 

### 4 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs,** 

### 5 **ACEEE.** 

### 6 **In the painful process of the** 

### 7 **ASRAC negotiations over the summer, I** 

### 8 **certainly learned a great deal. And it seems** 

### 9 **to me that there is a size above which** 

### 10 **everything is a custom product. And at that** 

### 11 **point, the complimentary assumption is that** 

### 12 **almost all of this stuff is going to fairly** 

### 13 **sophisticated purchasers.** 

### 14 **So, my working hypothesis is that** 

### 15 **there is an upper limit beyond which we get** 

### 16 **national energy savings that are appropriate,** 

### 17 **without necessarily having to do that in a** 

### 18 **regulatory framework and that the cost of the** 

### 19 **regulatory framework above some capacity may** 

### 20 **be higher than the benefits.** 

### 21 **So, I would certainly urge** 

### 22 **analysts for DOE to review the extensive**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 170**  **1 discussions on possibly appropriate capacity**  

### 2 **limits that occurred during the ASRAC** 

### 3 **process. As I say, I learned a great deal** 

### 4 **from that and certainly think that we, as** 

### 5 **advocates, can support conceptually the idea** 

### 6 **that there are upper limits and even that** 

### 7 **there may be break points lower than that at** 

### 8 **which the test method changes, as it does** 

### 9 **today with combustion versus thermal** 

### 10 **efficiency. I don't like that but let's see** 

### 11 **what is common sense.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,** 

### 13 **thank you.** 

### 14 **Additional final comments here?** 

### 15 **Okay, then for my part I will thank you all.** 

### 16 **This was a very productive meeting and I** 

### 17 **really appreciate you all being here today.** 

### 18 **I would also note for the record** 

### 19 **that the Department of Energy intends to hold** 

### 20 **the public meeting on Thursday, October** 

### 21 **third, so far as I had last heard. That is** 

### 22 **what I had heard. So for anybody listening**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 171**  **1 online that is planning on attending that,**  

### 2 **that is the last we have heard there.** 

### 3 **So, I will just turn it then back** 

### 4 **to Jim Raba for closing remarks. And my** 

### 5 **personal thanks to all of you.** 

### 6 **MR. RABA: We conclude today's** 

### 7 **public meeting with a great appreciation from** 

### 8 **the U.S. Department of Energy for you** 

### 9 **efficient participation in person and via** 

### 10 **webinar. And thank you for you a very** 

### 11 **productive meeting.** 

### 12 **We thank our presenters, Danielle** 

### 13 **Fox, Michael Droesch, and backed up with Alex** 

### 14 **Lekov and Adam Darlington and Facilitator** 

### 15 **Doug Brookman, of course. And our technical** 

### 16 **crew back stage, thank you very much, that** 

### 17 **made this possible.** 

### 18 **So now we look forward to** 

### 19 **receiving your written comments. And have** 

### 20 **safe travels.** 

### 21 **(Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., the** 

### 22 **foregoing matter was adjourned.)**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 172 A ability 168:1 able 10:7 69:8 93:1 111:10 116:12 130:2 132:10,12 ABMA 29:15 50:12

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137:1 12-2 135:13 136:18 12.5 91:11 12:25 171:21 12:30 11:11 128 3:18 13 3:7 13-1 142:5 138 3:20 14 145:19 14-1 145:17 14-3 146:11 144 3:22 1454:3 15 28:1 38:19 84:15

115:20 127:7 15-year20:5 15-1 148:20 155 164:10,16,21 155(P) 20:5 155-SP 89:17 1594:4 16-1 155:11 1684:6 17-1 158:10 18th22:15 31:8 18-1 159:12 1975 14:9 1992 14:12 2 2 31:5 90:9 154:10 154:16 155:9,21 155:22,22 2,000,00028:2 2-1 29:12 2-226:22 29:13 2-3 26:22 27:17

29:13,15 2-4 27:6 29:13 2.029:5 2.5 28:22 29:1,5,5

79:19 20 36:16 127:20 20,000,000 143:5 2000 35:7 2007 14:16 2009 33:8 2013 1:8 5:10 137:18 2014 18:15 22:4 2015 21:17 22:5

68:10 69:4 2016 15:15 19:5

22:8 2019 19:7 21:18 25 3:9 26 35:21 3 3 145:20 3-2 34:10 3-3 34:10 3-440:19 41:1,8 3021:10 127:19 128:19 30s 126:7 30,000,000 142:22 143:5 30-year 157:6 300,0007:1 28:22 300-horse91:11 305,000 142:20 4 4,000,00078:22 139:6 40 39:21 128:19 42 3:10 431 15:10 19:13 5 5 3:2,4 43:21 47:8

50:7 5,000,00029:2,6

78:22 5-244:2 5-344:7 46:13 5-448:15 53:4 54:9

60:1 5.029:1 50s 30:20 500 119:10 500,000 80:14 57 3:12 6 647:18 50:7 6,000,000 139:3 6-1 53:4 61:11 6045:1 62301 32:4,12 6313(a)6) 16:20 7 748:2 50:8 7-2 63:3,14 7-4 63:5 72:6,16 70s 89:22 95:2 73 3:14 8 8 3:6 7:8 107:22 8E-089 1:12 8,000,000 80:17 8-1 76:9 8-276:13 8-376:16 8-476:21 80 144:13 80s 95:2 9 9 90:8 107:21 9-1 85:18 89:15 90:8 94:17 96:22 9-2 85:22 92:20

97:1 9-3 97:2,4 107:21 9-4 95:13 97:8 9-5 97:12 99:7 9-6 97:16 9-7 97:20 100:20 101:4 102:5 106:19 9-8 98:1 9:00 1:13 9:02 5:2 9045:2 56:5 90.1 17:1 87:7

88:13 102:10,20 137:18 99 66:16 67:2NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 195

Energy Efficiency Standards for Commercial Packaged Boilers

US DOE

10-01-13

Washington, DC