U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office

Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512–1800; DC area (202) 512–1800

Fax: (202) 512–2250 Mail: Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402–0001

78–623 PDF 2002

S. Hrg. 107–386

NOMINATION OF C. LOUIS KINCANNON

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS

UNITED STATES SENATE

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

ON THE

NOMINATION OF C. LOUIS KINCANNON TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE

CENSUS BUREAU

FEBRUARY 28, 2002

Printed for the use of the Committee on Governmental Affairs

(

(II)

COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman

CARL LEVIN, Michigan

DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii

RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois

ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey

MAX CLELAND, Georgia

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware

JEAN CARNAHAN, Missouri

MARK DAYTON, Minnesota

FRED THOMPSON, Tennessee

TED STEVENS, Alaska

SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine

GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio

PETE V. DOMENICI, New Mexico

THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi

ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah

JIM BUNNING, Kentucky

JOYCE A. RECHTSCHAFFEN, Staff Director and Counsel

LEE ANN BRACKETT, Counsel

JASON M. YANUSSI, Professional Staff Member

HANNAH S. SISTARE, Minority Staff Director and Counsel

JOHANNA, L. HARDY, Minority Counsel

JANA C. SINCLAIR, Minority Counsel

DARLA D. CASSELL, Chief Clerk

(III)

C O N T E N T S

Opening statements: Page

Senator Lieberman ........................................................................................... 1

Senator Thompson ............................................................................................ 4

Senator Bennett ................................................................................................ 5

Senator Cochran ............................................................................................... 15

Prepared statements:

Senator Akaka .................................................................................................. 16

Senator Bunning ............................................................................................... 16

WITNESSES

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 28, 2002

Hon. George Allen, a U.S. Senator from the State of Virginia ............................ 1

Hon. Tom Sawyer, a Congressman from the State of Ohio ................................. 5

C. Louis Kincannon to be Director of the Census Bureau ................................... 7

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 19

Biographical and financial information .......................................................... 21

Pre-hearing questions and responses .............................................................. 27

Additional pre-hearing questions from Senator Akaka and responses ........ 50

Post-hearing questions from Senator Durbin and responses ........................ 52

Post-hearing questions from Senator Bunning and responses ..................... 54

(1)

NOMINATION OF C. LOUIS KINCANNON TO BE

DIRECTOR OF THE CENSUS BUREAU

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 28, 2002

U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, Washington, DC.

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:34 p.m., in room

SD–342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joseph I.

Lieberman, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.

Present: Senators Lieberman, Thompson, Cochran, and Bennett.

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LIEBERMAN

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Good afternoon. The hearing will come to

order. Senator Allen, do you have time to suffer the burden of hearing the opening statements of the three of us, or are you in a rush

to get somewhere?

Senator ALLEN. I was actually supposed to co-chair a meeting

with Senator Sarbanes in Foreign Relations at 2:45 p.m.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Why don’t you go ahead? We will go out

of order and have you do the introduction and then we will come

back and do our opening statements. Pleasure to welcome you here.

Senator ALLEN. Thank you for your indulgence, Mr. Chairman

and Members of the Committee.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Not at all.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. GEORGE ALLEN, A U.S.

SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF VIRGINIA

Senator ALLEN. I appreciate it very much. It is a pleasure to be

here, and it is a pleasure and privilege to introduce an outstanding

Virginian, Charles Louis Kincannon—he goes by Louis Kincannon

as opposed to Charles. I would like to thank you for your consideration of his nomination as director of the U.S. Census Bureau. He

is here with his wife Claire and daughter Alexandra and her husband Paul. There is another daughter, India, who is off in the hallway with a granddaughter Dahlia. You might have—there she is.

I heard her. She heard her name. Sounds like Dahlia. There she

is.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. We heard Dahlia, yes. It is a welcome

sound in this room. We do not hear it too often.

Senator ALLEN. It is appropriate, Mr. Chairman, that a Virginian

be selected to lead the Census Bureau into the 21st Century. As

you all know as students of history, the first census was done back

in Jamestown in the early 1600’s, even before Virginia and our

country was an independent nation. That first census conducted in

2

our Nation in 1790 counted 3.9 million inhabitants. That would be

a relatively small populated State these days, but that is what our

country had then.

Now the Census Bureau, as it has been transformed through our

history will be soon celebrating its 100th birthday, and I am very

confident, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Kincannon who himself has had

a long and respected history with the Census Bureau, is the right

choice to direct the Census Bureau in the next century. I would

like to take a few moments to highlight Mr. Kincannon’s experience

and accomplishments in the Census Bureau since joining the bureau as a statistician back in 1963.

Mr. Kincannon is well respected within and outside the Census

Bureau. He is only the second career civil servant to be nominated

as director of the Census Bureau. Mr. Kincannon already has experience that makes him very well prepared to take on the role as

director, having served as acting director for 9 months during the

administration of President Ronald Reagan, and again for nearly a

year under the administration of the first President Bush.

In addition, he has served for more than 10 years as deputy director, which is the second longest tenure of anyone in this post.

Mr. Kincannon’s service as deputy director continued under three

directors. This is just a brief example of Mr. Kincannon’s long history of experience and service that makes him uniquely qualified

to take the helm of the U.S. Census Bureau, notwithstanding the

sounds of his granddaughter Dahlia.

So I know that Representative Sawyer is going to want to have

some words to share with the Committee, and I thank you all for

having this hearing. I am sure you will have good questions of Mr.

Kincannon and will find him a person that you will be very confident to be heading the Census Bureau and doing it in an accurate

and fair manner.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Senators Bennett and Thompson.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Senator Allen. Appreciate

your coming here to introduce Mr. Kincannon.

Mr. Kincannon, we are happy to have you before the Committee

today because the post to which you have been nominated exerts

enormous influence over the lives of all Americans. Quite literally,

you are one of the people who will decide who is counted and who

is not; who will benefit from Federal resources and who will not.

I just had a—I do not know why I turned to you, Senator Thompson, but I had a flashback to a wonderful movie, The Jerk. Do you

remember that one with Steve Martin where he——

Senator THOMPSON. I beg your pardon. [Laughter.]

Chairman LIEBERMAN. I was thinking of movies, not jerks, when

I turned toward you, Senator Thompson.

Senator THOMPSON. Those two ideas did come together.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. No. When he finds his name in a phone

book and runs around screaming, I am somebody. So it is with the

census. We did not rehearse that—— Senator THOMPSON. But first he said the new phone books are

here, the new phone books are here.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. I see you remember the movie.

So it is essential that the Census Bureau chief be fair-minded,

a professional administrator who will guarantee not only the most

3

accurate and scientifically sound count, but who will also guarantee

that all elements of our country, especially people who have been

historically undercounted, are included in our census tabulations.

Mr. Kincannon, your years of public service speak very well for

you, Beginning your career 30 years ago as a Census Bureau statistician you have steadily risen through the ranks. In 1975 you left

the Bureau for the Office of Management and Budget where you

worked with Jim Miller at OIRA and received a commendation

from then Vice President Bush for your work on regulatory reform.

In 1981, Mr. Kincannon returned to the Census Bureau as deputy

director and served in that post through the first President Bush’s

administration. Twice during that period he served as acting director, and in 1992 was appointed the first chief statistician in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

Mr. Kincannon, I would say for the record, was born in Waco,

Texas, is a graduate of the University of Texas at Austin, did graduate work at Georgetown, G.W., and the University of Maryland.

Except for 8 years in Paris, which we will probably not question

you about here today, Mr. Kincannon and his wife, as Senator

Allen indicated, have resided in Virginia. They have two daughters.

Now here is an interesting next part of my statement, which goes

right to the function of counting. The original version said, and expecting their first grandchild soon. Then we heard Dahlia and it

was changed to, another grandchild soon. But is it the second

or——

Mr. KINCANNON. It is a commentary on the length of the confirmation process. [Laughter.]

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Very well said.

Senator THOMPSON. We asked for that, didn’t we?

Chairman LIEBERMAN. This is the second grandchild you are expecting?

Mr. KINCANNON. It is the second one we are expecting, yes. We

are expecting more than that, but——

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Eventually, right. That is the way we feel

about our population, too.

Obviously you have demonstrated your loyalty to and affection

for the Census Bureau, and have twice proven your expertise as

the Bureau’s acting director.

Most people know that the Bureau is the government agency

that counts the population every 10 years. Less known is that it

regularly provides government, business, and academia with an updated picture of who we Americans are as individuals, communities, and a Nation. With so many aspects of our society dependent on the Bureau’s work, the director must encourage cooperation

and openness among his ranks. The agency has long been criticized

for its insular nature, so I hope that you will work to make the Bureau a more customer friendly place.

I also want to add a word about the controversy that has surrounded the fairness of the decennial count. This is a controversy

that has now gone on for 2 decades. We are a Nation of entrepreneurs, scientists, and thinkers; the most technologically advanced country on the globe. Our population counts, I believe,

should reflect that mastery.

4

In other words, we should be using the most advanced methods

at our disposal to capture the most accurate portrait of our people.

We know that the actual enumeration, the effort to count every

head, does not provide an accurate count of the country’s diverse

population, particularly the poor, African-Americans, Hispanic

Americans, and Native Americans.

We also know that statisticians have long used a variety of methods to help them provide more accurate data. The Census Bureau

has used these methods to try to make the decennial census more

accurate, but for a variety of reasons has not incorporated the results into its final census numbers. Consequently, we cannot be

sure that our House seats are correctly apportioned, our Congressional districts are properly drawn, or our government resources directed to all the people they should be directed to. In turn, the decisions of private investors, the blueprints of community planners,

the efforts of our local school boards, and many others are different

than they might otherwise be.

So I will say to you directly that I am concerned about the Bureau’s methodology, but this is not, of course, just a statistician’s

battle. This is about the equitable treatment of all Americans, especially those whose voices are too often not heard. The Census Bureau serves a very broad constituency, which is the constituency

that contains uniquely every American. I think it must be responsive to that fact.

Senator Thompson.

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR THOMPSON

Senator THOMPSON. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Congratulations, Mr. Kincannon, on your nomination. I am pleased to

have the opportunity to discuss some issues with you today that

are important to all of us. We all know the Census Bureau conducts an actual head count of Americans every 10 years, but of

course, the Bureau does much more than that. Economic data is

the Census Bureau’s primary program commitment during the

other 9 years. These programs cover every non-farm sector of the

economy, feature industry and geographic detail, and provide key

measures of current performance.

Every 5 years the Bureau uses censuses to gather detailed statistics about virtually every business, industry, farm, and government, and more frequently the Bureau uses monthly, quarterly,

and annual surveys to update and extend the censuses with current economic statistics. These programs provide key measures of

current economic performance and are widely used by policy officials and economic analysts.

Mr. Kincannon has a strong background in issues related to the

census and to statistics, and he will bring 40 years of experience

and service as director of the Census. I believe his background and

expertise more than qualifies him for this position and demonstrates his commitment to public service.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Senator Thompson. Senator Bennett.

5

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BENNETT

Senator BENNETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Kincannon, I

look forward to having a dialogue with you here about some issues

that I have. But I want to make it very clear, I support your nomination. I am prepared to vote for it in Committee; I am prepared

to vote for it on the floor. I think you bring an expertise to this position that we can all be proud of, and that you can be proud of

as the capstone of your career. It is not always that folks who go

the civil servant route end up presiding over the agency that they

work for, but it is a demonstration of the high esteem in which you

are held that you have the kind of bipartisan support you have.

So with that, Mr. Chairman, I look forward to the question period.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Senator Bennett. Congressman

Sawyer, great timing. We welcome you and would be glad to hear

an opening statement or introduction at this time, if you would

like.

OPENING STATEMENT OF CONGRESSMAN TOM SAWYER,

FROM THE STATE OF OHIO

Mr. SAWYER. Thank you very much. Chairman Lieberman, Senator Thompson, and Senator Bennett, it really is a pleasure to join

you here today in this introduction of President Bush’s nominee for

the position of Census director, Charles Louis Kincannon. I have

been privileged to introduce two other director nominees to this

Committee, Dr. Barbara Everett Bryant, who served in the administration of President George Bush, and Dr. Martha Farnsworth

Ritche, President Clinton’s first Census chief.

If confirmed, Mr. Kincannon will join a distinguished group of

mathematical and social scientists who have led the agency

through social transition, demographic shifts, and political mine

fields. As you know, I chaired the House Subcommittee on Census

and Population from 1989 through 1994, and it was in that capacity that I first met Louis, who had just assumed the post of acting

director in the then-infant first Bush Administration. From different perspectives but with common goals we forged an effective

working relationships. It has endured as we discovered shared interests beyond the census, per se, particularly with respect to international statistics.

The 1990 Census was conducted amid high expectations and

deep controversy. In the crucial year before the count Louis took

the reins as acting director. It was not an easy time. Litigation had

imposed late design changes, Congressional concerns had stalled

final content decisions, local stakeholders were demanding a more

thorough preparation. Louis approached each challenge with the

steady determination of a seasoned manager, and the sensitivity of

a political veteran, working closely and cooperatively with the Congress to lay the final groundwork for the execution of the Census.

It was during his tenure at the Bureau that Louis’ leadership

role extended beyond the obvious stature of the positions that he

both held and assumed. His contributions included many improvements to the Census Bureau that paved the way for continued innovations in 2000, including the first single-night enumeration of

people living in shelters and on the streets, targeted advertising

6

campaigns developed by minority-owned firms, and the first use of

digital maps to replace the onerous hand-drawn ones.

Louis Kincannon is poised to take up the leadership mantle in

his own right as the agency is at another crossroads. The outcome

of 2000—how shall I put this?—challenged the confidence of many

stakeholders. Accurate benchmarks like demographic analysis and

intercensal population estimates appeared to slip. Shifting results

from the coverage evaluation survey and the Bureau’s decision not

to use the survey may have eroded goodwill that had been built up

through the successful Census 2000 partnership program.

As the agency prepares to launch its largest new initiative, the

American Community Survey, the support of stakeholders must be

earned, cannot be taken for granted, and needs the leadership of

a man who has earned that trust for many years.

It also faces management challenges at the Bureau that are in

some ways unique among civilian agencies. The census requires

years of planning, preparation, followed by lightning execution in

real time, without flaws. More broadly, at a time of heightened concern about privacy and confidentiality of personal information, the

Bureau has to demonstrate its relevance to the Nation’s security

and economic objectives while preserving its independence as a statistical agency.

I do not have any doubt that Louis Kincannon is up to those

tasks and that he commands the respect both inside and outside

the agency to restore confidence in the agency’s competence and integrity, a competence and integrity that I believe has always been

there but whose confidence may have been shaken.

He is an excellent choice to head the Census Bureau at a difficult

time in history. His prior leadership will bring stability in the wake

of senior staff retirements. His international experience will add a

fresh and important perspective as we document our Nation’s social

and economic recovery in the wake of global turmoil. With his nomination the President pays tribute to a career marked by high professional and ethical standards, competence and grace under pressure, and an absolute commitment to public service. The recognition is well deserved and I am pleased to be able to be here to urge

the Committee to act quickly and without hesitation.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you very much, Congressman Sawyer, for a very thoughtful statement, for taking the time to come

over to this side of the Hill to say that about the nominee. I appreciate it very much. Our goal is to have this nominee confirmed before the family has another grandchild.

We will proceed. For the record, let me say that Mr. Kincannon

has submitted responses to a biographical and financial questionnaire, has answered prehearing questions submitted by the Committee and additional questions from individual Senators, and has

had his financial statement reviewed by the Office of Government

Ethics. Without objection, this information will be made part of the

hearing record with the exception of the financial data which is on

file and available for inspection in the Committee’s office. In addition, the FBI file has been reviewed by Senator Thompson and me

pursuant to Committee rules.

7

1The prepared statement of Mr. Kincannon appears in the Appendix on page 19.

Biographical information appears in the Appendix on page 21.

Pre-hearing questions appear in the Appendix on page 27.

Additional pre-hearing questions from Senator Akaka and responses appear in the Appendix

on page 50

Post-hearing questions from Senator Durbin and responses appear in the Appendix on page

52.

Post-hearing questions from Senator Bunning and responses appear in the Appendix on page

54.

Mr. Kincannon, our Committee rules require that witnesses at

nomination hearings give their testimony under oath, so I would

ask you at this point to please stand and raise your right hand.

[Witness sworn.]

Chairman LIEBERMAN. I thank you. Please be seated. The record

will show, if it did not audibly, which I believe it probably did, that

the witness answered in the affirmative. We welcome you officially,

and your family, and would be glad to hear a statement that you

might want to make at this time.

Mr. SAWYER. Mr. Chairman, if I might be excused, I have an airplane I need to catch.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Definitely.

Mr. SAWYER. I thank you very much.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Safe travel and thanks for stopping by.

TESTIMONY OF C. LOUIS KINCANNON1 TO BE DIRECTOR OF

THE CENSUS BUREAU

Mr. KINCANNON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It certainly is an

honor to me, as well as a pleasure, to appear before this Committee

today. If I remember correctly, I did appear in this room once before at the side of Wayne Grandquist at the time he was an associate director at the Office of Management and Budget; maybe a

name known to you and someone I have lost track of. Maybe we

can catch up with him someday.

It is also one of the greatest honors of my life to be nominated

for this post by President Bush. It is a pleasure because President

Bush is a fellow Texan, and it is also a pleasure because the Census Bureau sought me out when I was still in university, and hired

me, and invested in me over a period of time. It gave me a career

that was as interesting as anyone could hope for, and I am very

glad to have an opportunity to rejoin that community.

It is a community that sometimes can be seen as insular, but it

is also solid and performs great services for the country. My task

will be in part to make sure that that strength is maintained and

the insularity becomes more transparent all along.

I am certainly grateful for the introduction of Senator Allen, who

has had to take me on faith, and also for Congressman Sawyer who

knows me from the past. So I am very honored to have both of

them introduce me to this Committee.

If the Senate confirms me in this post I will build on the base

of a very good 2000 Census. Those results depended on the professional staff, they depended on the leadership of Dr. Bryant, of Dr.

Riche, and Dr. Prewitt, who were the directors in the period of

planning and lead-up to the Census 2000 and through it. The success of the census in 2000 would not have been possible without

the support of the Congress. Not just a token of support, but with

a lot of time spent understanding the problems of the census and

8

making sure the resources necessary and the guidance necessary

were available to the Census. I am very grateful for that.

I hope to build on that success with your help and cooperation.

We have an opportunity to do an even better job in 2010, given

what we have learned and what we see before us as steps that we

can take, particularly through the introduction through the American Community Survey, improvements in geographic tools, to

build on successes in the past. And very intensive cooperation with

the users of the results, which of course, includes the Congress, but

includes the governors, mayors, and other local government officials as well as the business and academic community.

We also need to make improvement in economic statistics. Our

economic security depends in part, an important part, on what we

know about the activities in our economy. I believe that it is not

my view alone that this area has not received in recent years the

resources it probably needs to keep up with the accurate description of a rapidly changing economy. This need is not confined to the

statistics produced by the Census Bureau and I will, if confirmed

in this post, work with the sister agencies of the Census Bureau

in making sure that a practical program is proposed to the Congress.

I also want to say that I would pay close attention to recruiting

and retention at the Census Bureau. The whole Federal Government faces a challenge as demographic changes come upon us, in

retaining good staff when they reach retirement age, or even when

they respond to competitive salary offers, and in recruiting and interesting young people to come and spend the 20 or 30 years that

is necessary to have a high payoff for them as well as for the country.

The Census Bureau cannot solve these problems by itself, but I

believe I can help by making it continue to be a good place to work

that offers satisfaction to employees, and a sense of mission in the

interest of the country.

I thank you for your indulgence in this and I think a copy of this

statement has been submitted for the record, if it is permitted, sir.

Thank you.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you. Thanks for a very good opening statement. One of the last points you made anticipated one of

the questions I was going to ask, which I always ask when Senator

Voinovich of Ohio is not here because he is focused on this challenge of human capital management, which is to say, assuring that

we are retaining and attracting good people to Federal service.

It was interesting to hear you recall that the Census Bureau

found you, I guess at the University of Texas, and recruited you

here. I do not know how much we go out any more to recruit at

college campuses. I do not know about the Census Bureau, but the

Federal agencies generally. Just as that process ended up attracting you to a lifetime of service, which in this nomination culminates—does not end—we have to assure the same for succeeding

generations. So I appreciate that you mentioned that.

Let me ask first some questions that we ask of all nominees. Is

there anything that you are aware of in your background which

might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office to

which you have been nominated?

9

Mr. KINCANNON. No, sir, I am not.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Do you know of anything personal or otherwise that would in any way prevent you from fully and honorably

discharging the responsibilities as director of the Census?

Mr. KINCANNON. No, sir, to the limit of my competence.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Do you agree without reservation to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and testify before any

duly constituted Committee of Congress if you are confirmed?

Mr. KINCANNON. Yes, sir, I do.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Great. Let me get to a point that I raised

in my opening statement. I will begin with a GAO report in 1998

that said, ‘‘Certain racial and ethnic minorities have long been

undercounted in the Census.’’ The Bureau has attempted, I know,

to quantify this undercount using statistical sampling methods. To

date adjusted estimates have not been used for any official purpose

or released for public review.

So my first question is, do you agree, first on a baseline question,

that the decennial census has historically and persistently undercounted certain populations?

Mr. KINCANNON. Yes. The Census Bureau itself has long provided the evidence that is the basis for that understanding, and for

planning for efforts to try to correct it.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. So let me then ask you first what your

general thoughts are about the feasibility and desirability of using

statistical methods to make the decennial census more accurate.

Mr. KINCANNON. As to desirability, I think it is desirable for us

to use tools at hand that can produce a better count of the population. That has to be limited by what the law provides, and it has

to be limited by the practicality of that work so that we can

produce results that stand up to scientific scrutiny, and alas, these

days it has to stand up to legal challenge as well. So those are limits to consider.

As to the feasibility, I retain a confidence that at some level of

geographic detail it will be feasible to do this. I have less confidence now, after 20 years of the Census Bureau working on this,

that we can produce satisfactory changes in data, or adjustments

in data, for very small levels of geographic detail. But I do retain

the confidence that we can do it at higher levels of geography.

At least a couple of countries in the world adjust their census results using similar techniques or analogous techniques at the province or state level. The law currently stands in the way of doing

that for purposes of apportionment, and it would remain for the

Congress, I think, to decide whether that should change. But that

surely would be technically possible. Whether it would make a significant change in the results is another question quite aside.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Interesting. I was going to ask you what

would be the break point or the line between an area that was too

small for a statistical method to be valid and one that would be

large enough.

Mr. KINCANNON. Depends on the use that the data are going to

be put to. Redistricting is a very conflicted task and its

challenge——

Chairman LIEBERMAN. We have noticed.

10

Mr. KINCANNON. Figures used there—we can produce estimates

of unemployment in the statistical system for comparatively small

areas. But those are not customarily challenged in court or, other

than in an argumentative sense, in the political arena either. And

they are produced with a margin of error on either side.

That is not satisfactory for redistricting, at least in my limited

experience with that. You cannot say that this line can be drawn

here or it could be drawn a little over there and do the best you

can. That does not work very satisfactorily. I am not sure that it

is a happy situation if we were to say the final seat assigned by

the method of equal proportions in the House of Representatives

goes either to one State or another plus or minus 15 percent. That

would see us in court and I do not know quite what a court would

do with that. So it would tie up potentially the other body in

discussing that.

So the use has to be defined. If we are going to use the figures

for allocating payments to hospital districts or to fairly large areas

like that, a State or a large city, and the results are to be used in

an administrative program where they do not have to withstand

extremely strict legal scrutiny, then I think that some job could be

done with that.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. That will continue to be a topic of interest

and we look forward to continuing the dialogue on it.

Let me ask you a similar question. As you know better than I,

demographic analysis which uses birth, death, migration, and other

key records to determine national estimates of the population is

used to check the accuracy of the 10-year census. Although demographic analysis has been considered a fairly effective method to

determine overall population statistics there are critics who say

that it is increasingly less reliable because its estimates fail to fully

account for increases in immigration which have been rather sharp

in recent times.

I wanted to ask what your opinion is of the Census Bureau’s current ability to track both documented and undocumented immigrants for Census purposes.

Mr. KINCANNON. We presume that the problems in tracking documented immigrants are less than for undocumented immigrants.

But none of the institutions of the country seem to do a particularly outstanding job in tracking immigrants once they are in the

country. It is a difficult job and the approach toward the problem

has been based on this country’s tolerance, and indeed encouragement of migration, to build the country. I do not think any of us

wants to see that change.

I have not looked at the methods used in the Census Bureau for

estimating immigration for almost 10 years. I think that the methods for tracking legal migration are pretty robust. I think that the

task of measuring undocumented immigration is much more difficult, and I am not able to speak to whether improvements have

been made in the last 10 years.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. One more question for me on this round.

This Committee has worked on the Government Performance and

Results Act with some intensity and pride. That, as you know, calls

for setting performance goals, measures for programs in the Federal Government. The GAO has used measures like the real dollar

11

cost per household, the return in proxy rates, for Census forms in

productivity measures to evaluate the Census. Do you think these

are appropriate performance measures for the next census? If not,

what might you recommend?

Mr. KINCANNON. I think that they are useful. I do not know that

those kinds of measures alone tell the whole story. Certainly I

think it is correct to observe that the cost per household has risen

sharply over the recent 30 or 40 years of census taking, certainly.

How does one account for the value of ensuring that every person

is counted, or doing the best job possible? That is a question that

is not really amenable to a scientific answer. It is worth a lot. It

is like counting votes accurately; it is worth a lot to try to do.

The Congress proved more generous in the last round of census

taking than ever before and it no doubt reflected the Congress’ concern that we do the very best job that we could. That paid off. I

hope that we do not approach the Congress with a similar degree

of increase for 2010, but I do want to make sure that we make

clear to the Congress what we are doing and what we think we can

buy in terms of better counting of all the people, because I think

that is an important question.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Good. Actually I had some numbers here;

that the real dollar cost per household for the census went from

$24 in 1980 to $56 in 2000. I would urge you to think about performance measures and we welcome your recommendation to us

and to GAO about how to go forward with those.

Senator Thompson.

Senator THOMPSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Congressional Budget Office has been seeking information from the Census

Bureau that it wishes to use to analyze Social Security reform proposals. I am sure you are aware of that. It, of course, is going to

be an issue that is very important to this Congress. It is very important that we have the best information possible in addressing

this issue.

Of course, we are also mindful of the importance of confidentiality. CBO is working on, or has suggested ways, in which confidentiality could be maintained. I know the Bureau holds its information very closely, as it should. But will you work with the CBO

to address this problem and give it due consideration if you can

work out the confidentiality difficulties?

Mr. KINCANNON. Yes, certainly we will work—I will work closely

with the CBO to try to meet their needs in the context of the law.

I do not know the details of the needs of the CBO or of the current

working relationship between the Census Bureau and the CBO. I

do know that the agreement was revised as recently as October

and I would be very happy to meet with the director of the CBO

or whoever to understand what shortcomings or what kinds of

problems may still exist.

We are constrained by the law and the law is there for a good

reason. I am fond of saying that when you step up on a front porch

and ask a household for private information, information they regard as their own business, you have to have a fairly simple story

to tell about confidentiality. Now we have a simple story to tell,

and I want to continue having a simple story.

12

But I do pledge that I will work with the CBO to try to meet

those extremely important needs.

Senator THOMPSON. It does not look to me like it is insurmountable. I do not believe they need names or information that would

compromise what you are concerned about. They do have access to

IRS information, and classified information and things of that nature. So I think they have proven that they can protect confidential

information. So I would like to see you all get together and sit

down and discuss it and see what the responsible thing to do is on

that so both of those considerations could be served.

Second, I am sure you are aware many Congressional offices received complaints about the long form during the last census and

we are starting to hear from some folks about the American Community Survey which is currently implemented now in selected

areas. I know the Bureau spent a lot of money educating the public

about the decennial census and it appears to have done some good.

What do you anticipate the Bureau will do to inform the public

about not only the fact that there is an ACS but why it is needed?

Mr. KINCANNON. We will try to explain to them that first it will

avoid a lot of Americans having to report in 2010 if the ACS is successful in its implementation. We will also explain directly to them,

and hopefully through governors, mayors, and city councils, and so

on, the great benefits of new data available every year for areas of

60,000 population or more. That is a big deliverable to the public,

local officials, that the Census Bureau really has not been able to

offer before. It does require that people answer questions, but if

they understand the benefits in their community then it can be

helpful.

I think we need to make sure that local governments and local

media know when we are doing that work in their area and why,

so that they can explain to the public. We need to make sure that

Congressional offices are aware of what is happening and when, so

that they can give an answer as to why this is useful to local government and to the national——

Senator THOMPSON. It is going to require a public relations campaign though, is it not?

Mr. KINCANNON. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMPSON. Thank you, Mr. Kincannon, that is really all

I have. I am glad that you are willing to continue your public service. At first blush, one would think that mathematics and statistics

would be a rather dry area for some people, until you quickly realize in this job you are counting people and voters and things of that

nature and it can become quickly fraught with political peril.

I would just urge you, as I know you will, to avoid pressure from

the left or the right and do not worry about how things are going

to turn out in the end but faithfully follow the process, follow the

law, use intellectual honesty and things that you know are right

and let the chips fall where they may. I know you will do that.

Mr. KINCANNON. Thank you, Senator. I will also warn you, you

may hear from my granddaughter again since she lives in Knoxville these days.

Senator THOMPSON. Does she really? I know there was something

about you I liked. Thank you very much.

13

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Just another Tennessee voter coming

along. Senator Bennett.

Senator BENNETT. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Kincannon, I simply want to follow up on the comments

made by Senator Thompson. If I can do so without reaching too far,

I want to give you an analogy that I have just lived through on the

question of information sharing. We have just concluded in Utah

the 2002 Olympics and everyone is raving about how smoothly they

went and how easily things seemed to work. I have said to Governor Ridge that the Olympics in Utah serve as a model for information sharing to a degree that Federal, State, and local officials

have never ever experienced before.

I walked into a room roughly the size of this one in which you

had sitting at computer terminals—and there was one about every

four feet—representatives of all of the various agencies that were

involved in the Olympics. Now we should understand that the

prime task of leading Olympic security rested with the Secret Service since this was designated as a national Secret Service security

event. The President was there and then the Vice President was

there.

But on the top of these computers were little cards like the one

that is in front of you listing the agency that was represented

there. You had FEMA, the Secret Service, the FBI, and then you

had the Weber County Sheriff’s Department, the Salt Lake City Police, the University of Utah Police Department. You say, why the

University of Utah? Well, the Olympic village was at the University of Olympic and the opening and closing ceremonies were in the

stadium of the University of Utah.

It was absolutely seamless, the sharing of information, and absolutely unprecedented. Because always before a Federal agency

would say, this is ours, and a State agency would say, this is ours,

and then the policeman on the ground says, I am the first responder and I am not going to tell you Feds these kinds of things.

Everybody told everybody everything and it had a tremendous impact on seeing to it that the thing went very well.

So I give you that example. The Chairman and Senator Thompson know that I am pushing for information sharing in

cyberterrorism for exactly the same reason: That things work better when people who have significant responsibilities have access

to accurate information. Now the hang-up with the CBO, as I understand it, is that the law says you cannot share information unless it has a Census purpose. I am not sure the Congress has the

slightest idea what a Census purpose is. I think the definition of

that term probably lies with you.

My understanding is that you have shared information—by you

I mean the Census Bureau, not you individually. You have shared

information quite regularly and quite openly with a fairly wide

number of Executive Branch agencies. But when CBO has come,

Census Bureau has said, no, that does not serve a Census purpose

and you have restricted, under the rubric of following the law, giving information to the legislative branch that you have been willing

to give to the Executive Branch.

Now as Senator Thompson indicated, CBO has made its own arrangements with some parts of the Executive Branch; interestingly

14

enough, the most sensitive being the IRS. So the information you

share with the IRS for a Census purpose, the IRS then shares with

CBO for a very legitimate governmental purpose on the part of

CBO.

What I am hoping you will work toward is avoiding the bank

shot. In other words, sharing information directly with the Congress. The CBO is an arm of the Congress. And saying that the legislative branch should be treated with the same definition courtesy

that the Executive Branch is treated. So if you share information

with an agency in the Executive Branch—clearly it has to have a

Census purpose under the law—you would be equally willing to

share that information with the legislative branch. By definition,

saying if it has a Census purpose for one it has a Census purpose

for the other.

Yes, we need to look for the safeguards on security and confidentiality. I have been assured by Dan Crippen of the CBO that he is

more than willing to work out all those safeguards. But I would

hope you would do as I have described in your definition of a Census purpose. And if you discover with competent legal counsel that

you cannot, that you would be willing to notify this Committee, or

certainly me, how you think the law ought to be changed in order

to achieve an intelligent kind of information sharing.

Because if indeed in a past life, prior to the introduction of the

information age into our world, Congress put shackles on you that

previously made sense and do not make sense now, and you feel

you cannot in good conscience by definition change those shackles,

let us know so that we can change them. Because that is what the

Congress does is pass laws.

So to say, we cannot because of the law, you are dealing with the

people who make the laws and we want to know what recommendations you would have to change the law to allow you to

achieve what I consider, and Senator Thompson obviously considers, a very salutary purpose of seeing to it that the decisionmakers, just like the security people in the Olympics, all talk to

each other, so that you have a seamless flow of information to the

people that really need it, really can use it, and that the country

as a whole will benefit.

Now if you want to respond, that would be fine. But I just take

that point in support and strengthening the point that Senator

Thompson has already made.

Mr. KINCANNON. I will not respond at length, but I feel I should

comment on a very cogent argument, a good sermon, as it were, in

reminding us of what we are doing this for. You are right, the Census Bureau in the past 20 or 30 years at various points has been

able to find joint projects with other Federal Executive Branch

agencies and with academics and perhaps other classes of organizations that do not come to my mind, where the project serves a Census Bureau purpose and the other agency’s purpose.

My understanding is that the agreement currently active between the CBO and the Census Bureau recognizes such a purpose.

So I certainly do not disagree with what you are saying and I will,

as I promised Senator Thompson, I will look into the particulars

of whether we have—where is it broken and where can we fix it,

15

if it is broken. I understand the usefulness of your analogy, but the

information is different in its quality and—— Senator BENNETT. I understand that too, yes.

Mr. KINCANNON. All those agencies you mentioned get their information in different means than the Census Bureau. But I take

your point and I do promise that I will personally look into it and

get back in touch with you, or the Committee as a whole, whatever.

Senator BENNETT. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Senator Bennett. Senator Cochran.

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR COCHRAN

Senator COCHRAN. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I appreciated the opportunity of meeting with Mr. Kincannon prior to the

hearing and complimented him on his record of service, and my assurance that I thought he was well qualified for this position,

maybe over-qualified. You know too much about it, maybe.

We know that you can still bring a fresh approach and a new

sense of leadership and responsibility to the position and we congratulate you, I congratulate you on your selection. I look forward

to working with you as head of the Census Bureau.

I really am sympathetic to the comments made by Senator Bennett and Senator Thompson on this issue of sharing of information.

Currently as I understand it, what CBO has an agreement with

the Census Bureau for is access to the survey of income and program participation. The Census Bureau has agreed that they can

have that access if they go to a Social Security office where the information is held as well and work with the Social Security Administration officials to develop a Census purpose understanding, and

then access is granted to that information once they work out this

understanding. So it has a very limited purpose of helping to develop a public use version of the data.

What I think the problem is, the Census Bureau restricts the access by making the information available only at a Social Security

facility, and for such a limited purpose that CBO is unable to really

use the data they get to develop long term models which would be

of benefit to the Congress in its consideration of Social Security or

Medicare reforms, or improvements in those programs.

One other aspect I think that ought to be considered as you think

about this, as you have said you would, the CBO is now required

by law—and we made the law here, just like we made the law that

governs you—the Congress made the law—so we made a law when

we created CBO that they would provide the same level of confidentiality as is required by law of the agency from whom they obtain data. So it is not like you are going to commit some gross act

of irresponsibility, if you are satisfied that there is a Census purpose, or whatever the words of art may be.

I think you can look to this Committee for any enforcement

mechanisms or restraints, extra legal restraints that may be needed in order to get the kind of assurance that you need in order to

have your conscience clear that you are doing your job and you are

obeying the law. Because we think the law ought to permit responsible sharing of information that protects the rights of privacy of

16

people who have given information to the Census Bureau thinking

that this will be held in confidence. I think they can be assured

that CBO will too because they are required by law to keep it confidential just like you are required to keep it confidential.

So that is the point that I wanted to add to the discussion.

Thank you very much.

Mr. KINCANNON. That is very helpful. Thank you, sir.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Senator Cochran. I have no further questions. We are going to leave the record open for another

2 days. There may be some questions that others will want to submit to you and ask for your answer in writing. I appreciate your

cooperation.

Senator Akaka was unable to attend the hearing, but is submitting testimony for the record. Senator Bunning also have submitted

a statement, which I would like to add for the record.

[The prepared statements of Senators Akaka and Bunning follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR AKAKA

Mr. Chairman, I wish to express my support for the nomination of Mr. C. Louis

Kincannon to be director of the Census Bureau. I had the opportunity to meet with

Mr. Kincannon earlier this month and found him to be well-qualified to assume the

mantle of the U.S. Census.

At our meeting, we discussed the diversity of the Asian American and Pacific Islander communities in Hawaii and the nation. He understood that my interest in

the accuracy of data collection is heightened by the fact that Census 2000 data will

be used for the next 10 years in many policy making decisions.

Because our nominee has spent so much of his professional career at the Census

Bureau, he was familiar with my efforts to disaggregate Native Hawaiians from the

Asian Pacific Islander category, which began in 1993. My efforts were based on the

inaccuracies regarding data collection and statistics for Native Hawaiians and the

fact that Native Hawaiians were being classified with populations that had immigrated to the United States, creating the misperception that Native Hawaiians were

immigrants to the United States rather than the indigenous peoples of Hawaii.

Over the years, I have addressed these inaccuracies through changes to Office of

Management and Budget (OMB) Statistical Policy Directive No. 15, which governs

racial and ethnic data collection by Federal agencies. I discussed with Mr.

Kincannon how in 1997, OMB Directive 15 was revised, and that Native Hawaiians

were disaggregated from the Asian Pacific Islander category. A new category entitled, ‘‘Native Hawaiians and Other Pacific Islanders’’ was created, which addresses

the inaccuracies in data collection for Native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders. Although agencies have until January 1, 2003, to make all existing record keeping or

reporting requirements consistent with the Directive, provisions of the revised Directive took effect immediately for all new and revised record keeping or reporting

requirements that include racial and/or ethnic information.

I have been actively encouraging all Federal agencies to begin efforts to implement the Directive. The importance of the implementation of this Directive to the

successful tracking of Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander data is absolutely necessary, and I plan to ask the GAO to determine if all 24 CFO agencies are in compliance with the Directive.

Given my long standing concerns with the accuracy of data and the importance

I place on the decennial census, it is my hope that Mr. Kincannon, if confirmed, will

work toward hiring a Pacific Islander at the policymaking level who could assist in

addressing issues surrounding accurate data collection and statistics for Pacific Islanders. Thank you Mr. Chairman.

PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR BUNNING

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Conducting a census is one of the oldest functions of government. In 1790, the

government’s first census found that there were approximately 3.9 million AmeriVerDate 11-MAY-2000 14:50 Jun 19, 2002 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00020 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6621 78623.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: SAFFAIRS
17

cans, which is only slightly less than the number of people who live in my home

State of Kentucky today.

The 2000 census revealed that there are now over 281 million folks living in this

country, and I would guess that the types of questions asked today are nothing similar to the ones asked in 1790.

As the leader of the Census Bureau, it will be Mr. Kincannon’s job to lead the

agency as it continues sorting through the data from the 2000 census and begins

preparing for the 2010 census.

This is a big job, and I hope—and expect—Mr. Kincannon to stay receptive to suggestions and concerns by Members of Congress.

Also, it has been brought to my attention that the Census Bureau has been reluctant to provide the Congressional Budget Office with figures it needs to run some

Social Security and Medicare models.

I have some questions about this, and am looking forward to hearing your response.

Thank you.

We will try to move this as quickly as we can. I was tempted to

ask you when that next grandchild is due but it may give us more

time than we should take to bring your nomination before the Senate.

I thank you. Anything more you would like to say before we adjourn?

Mr. KINCANNON. If you will permit, sir, I would like to say how

much I appreciate the hard work of the staff, many of whom I have

met with, personal staff and Committee staff of the Members of

this Committee. They have, without exception, worked hard to try

to understand what I know and to learn about what the Census

Bureau is doing, and I very much appreciate it.

Chairman LIEBERMAN. You are very good to say that. We thank

you for all your years of service and your willingness to serve yet

again in this important position. Obviously there are points on

which we may disagree but I know we will go at those disagreements in good faith and with a desire to serve the public interest

better. I thank you and the hearing is adjourned.

[Whereupon, at 3:30 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

(19)

A P P E N D I X

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

30

31

32

33

34

35

36

37

38

39

40

41

42

43

44

45

46

47

48

49

50

51

52

53

54

Æ