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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 

 + + + + + 

 FRAMEWORK OF THE RULEMAKING PROCESS TO 

 IMPROVE ENERGY EFFICIENCY STANDARDS FOR 

 COMMERCIAL PACKAGED BOILERS 

 + + + + + 

 PUBLIC MEETING 

 + + + + + 

 TUESDAY 

 OCTOBER 1, 2013 

 + + + + + 

 The Public Meeting convened in 

the Forrestal Building, Room 8E-089, 1000 

Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., 

at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, Facilitator, and 

James Raba, Presiding Officer. 

PRESENT 

DOUG BROOKMAN, Facilitator, Public 

 Solutions, Inc. 

CHUCK FOSTER, Edison Electric Institute 

JAMES RABA, Department of Energy 

HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an 

 Energy Efficient Economy 

JIM SCHNORR, Burnham Holdings 

FRANK STANONIK, Air-Conditioning, Heating, 

 and Refrigeration Institute 

ERIC STAS, ESQ., Department of Energy 

PHILLIP W. STEPHENS, HTP - Advanced Heating 

 and Hot Water Systems 

ALSO PRESENT 
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ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Department of Energy 

ADAM DARLINGTON, Navigant Consulting 

MICHAEL DROESCH, Navigant Consulting 

DANIELLE FOX, Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory 

GEOFFREY HALLEY, American Boiler 

 Manufacturers Association* 

JEFF KLEISS, Lochinvar, LLC* 

ALEX LEKOV, Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory 

*Participating via telephone 
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 TABLE OF CONTENTS 

Welcome 

 Doug Brookman, Facilitator....... 5 

Regulatory History 

 Jim Raba......................... 5 

Introductions and Agenda 

Review 

 Doug Brookman, Facilitator....... 8 

Rulemaking Process Overview 

 Jim Raba......................... 13 

Scope and Test Procedure 

 Michael Droesch.................. 25 

Market and Technology Assessment 

 Danielle Fox..................... 42 

Screening Analysis and Engineering 

Analysis 

 Michael Droesch.................. 57 

Markups Analysis and Energy Use 

Analysis 

 Danielle Fox..................... 73 

Life-Cycle Cost and Payback Period 

Analysis 

 Danielle Fox..................... 107 

Shipments Analysis and National 

Impact Analysis 

 Danielle Fox..................... 128 

Notice of Proposed Rulemaking 

Analysis 

 Danielle Fox..................... 138 

Preliminary Manufacturer Impact 

Analysis 

 Michael Droesch.................. 144 
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 TABLE OF CONTENTS (Con't.) 

Notice of Proposed Rulemaking 

Analysis (continued) 

 Danielle Fox..................... 145 

Participant Comments 

 Facilitator Brookman............ 159 

Next Steps and Closing Remarks 

 Jim Raba......................... 168 
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (9:02 a.m.) 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's 

4 start. Let's get going here. 

5 Good morning everyone and 

6 welcome. This is the U.S. Department of 

7 Energy's public meeting about the Framework 

8 of the Rulemaking Process to Improve Energy 

9 Efficiency Standards for Commercial Packaged 

10 Boilers. Today is Tuesday, October 1, 2013 

11 here in Washington, D.C. in the Forrestal 

12 Building. And the Department of Energy is 

13 conducting this meeting today, despite the 

14 shutdown of some other aspects of the federal 

15 government. 

16 So I am so glad to see you here 

17 and we are going to start off with welcoming 

18 remarks from Jim Raba this morning. 

19 MR. RABA: Well, good morning, 

20 everyone, and welcome, whether you are 

21 attending today's public meeting in person or 

22 via the webinar. This is the U.S. Department 
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1 of Energy's public meeting about commercial 

2 packaged boilers. 

3 My name is Jim Raba and I am the 

4 project manager for commercial packaged 

5 boilers. Our presenters are Michael Droesch 

6 from Navigant Consulting and Danielle Fox 

7 from Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. 

8 We will address the rulemaking 

9 framework for commercial packaged boilers. 

10 The purpose of the framework documents is to 

11 describe the procedural and analytical 

12 approaches the Department of Energy 

13 anticipates using to evaluate the potential 

14 amended Energy Conservation Standards for 

15 commercial packaged boilers. It also 

16 introduces the upcoming commercial packaged 

17 boilers test procedure rulemaking and serves 

18 to solicit feedback from interested parties 

19 about the current test procedure. 

20 Commercial packaged boilers 

21 include electric, gas-fired, oil-fired, hot 

22 water, and steam boilers with input ratings 
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1 of 300,000 British thermal units per hour or 

2 more. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Keep 

4 going. 

5 MR. RABA: Back. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. I'm 

7 trying to find the right slide for you, Jim. 

8 MR. RABA: Slide 8, please. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Eight, 

10 okay. 

11 MR. RABA: We're there. Thank 

12 you. 

13 Now during today's public 

14 meeting, DOE will be seeking comment from 

15 interested parties on a variety of issues and 

16 discussing the next steps of the rulemaking. 

17 DOE welcomes comments in all aspects of the 

18 framework document. The presenters will 

19 pause to allow for discussion of certain 

20 issues indicated by these yellow boxes. So 

21 throughout, please feel free to offer oral or 

22 written comments, whether in person or via 
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1 the webinar. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, thank 

3 you, Jim. 

4 I am going to return to some of 

5 these earlier slides. For those of you that 

6 are joining us via the webinar, I apologize. 

7 I have been scrolling around, trying to keep 

8 up with Jim's comments. 

9 By the way, my name is Doug 

10 Brookman from Public Solutions in Baltimore. 

11 We always start with introductions first 

12 thing. 

13 So we will start to my immediate 

14 left and you can get used to turning these 

15 microphones on and off. Please say your name 

16 and organizational affiliation. 

17 MR. FOSTER: Chuck Foster, 

18 representing the Edison Electric Institute. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

20 MR. SCHNORR: Hi, Jim Schnorr, 

21 representing the Burnham Holdings Company. 

22 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, 
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1 HTP. 

2 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE General 

3 Counsel's Office. 

4 MR. RABA: Jim Raba, DOE. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey, 

6 you want to introduce yourself, please? 

7 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And, 

9 please stand up. 

10 MR. DARLINGTON: Adam Darlington, 

11 Navigant. 

12 MR. DROESCH: Michael Droesch, 

13 Navigant. 

14 MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence 

15 Berkeley National Laboratory. 

16 MS. FOX: Danielle Fox, Lawrence 

17 Berkeley National Laboratory. 

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, 

19 DOE. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

21 And do you wish to introduce yourself? 

22 MR. BONN: I'm Thomas Bonn, the 
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1 court reporter trainee. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

3 Thanks to all of you for joining 

4 us. There has been some confusion, I think, 

5 about whether the Department would hold this 

6 meeting today but I really appreciate those 

7 of you that were able to make it joining us. 

8 And those of you joining us via the web, 

9 especially we would like to welcome you. The 

10 Department of Energy is trying hard to make 

11 these meetings totally accessible to folks 

12 via the web. 

13 I am going to do a very brief 

14 agenda review. Immediately following this 

15 agenda review is an opportunity for anyone 

16 who wishes to make brief summary remarks here 

17 at the outset. Any issues that you think are 

18 important that you wish to raise at this 

19 point, please do so then. 

20 After that, we are going to hear 

21 some regulatory history. 

22 And moving on from there, 
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1 rulemaking process overview. We will take a 

2 break mid-morning, around about 10:15 or 

3 10:30 or so. Following that, scope and test 

4 procedure and following that, market and 

5 technology assessment. And following on from 

6 there, screening assessment and engineering 

7 analysis and then markups analysis and energy 

8 use analysis, life-cycle cost and payback 

9 period analysis. 

10 We will break for lunch around 

11 about 12:30 or so. When we return from 

12 lunch, shipments analysis and national impact 

13 analysis, preliminary manufacturer impact 

14 analysis, notice of proposed rulemaking 

15 analysis. And then finally at the end of the 

16 day today, which we anticipate will be, not 

17 quite sure, maybe two o'clock, maybe three 

18 o'clock, next steps and closing remarks, yet 

19 another opportunity for anybody that wishes 

20 to to raise other issues that haven't been 

21 fully covered. So we want to make sure that 

22 everybody has a chance to say what they came 
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1 here to say today. 

2 That's the agenda for today. 

3 Questions and comments on the agenda? I see 

4 none. I would ask for your consideration. 

5 Please, as we go on today, simple courtesy, I 

6 believe, please speak one at a time. Please 

7 say your name for the record each time you 

8 speak. There will be a complete transcript 

9 of this meeting. You have gotten used to 

10 turning the microphones on and off here in 

11 the room. Those of you that are joining via 

12 the web, in the software you can raise your 

13 hand if you wish to speak. It has been 

14 working successfully that if you wish to 

15 speak, you can unmute your phone and we can 

16 hear you here in the room to ask your 

17 question. We will try and make that work 

18 today. Otherwise, please keep your phone on 

19 mute so that there is no feedback here in the 

20 room. 

21 If you could keep the focus here 

22 today, limit sidebar conversations, keep your 
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1 devices on silent mode, be concise, share the 

2 air time. I will be queuing individuals as 

3 best I can to speak as we go along today. 

4 All of you received a packet of 

5 information as you checked in this morning. 

6 That will be the basis for discussion. The 

7 presenters will be using these slides as a 

8 starting point for both presenting and 

9 answering your questions. 

10 So that is the plan for today. 

11 Questions and comments before we proceed? 

12 Okay. 

13 So then, let me invite anybody 

14 that wishes to to make opening remarks here 

15 at the outset. No opening remarks at the 

16 outset. 

17 Jack, do we have anybody online 

18 that wishes to? (Response: Nothing yet.) 

19 Okay. So then, let's proceed 

20 with the content. Jim Raba. 

21 MR. RABA: Thank you, Doug. 

22 We will begin first with the 
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1 regulatory history of this rulemaking, where 

2 we are with commercial packaged boilers for 

3 standards and test procedures. Now here is a 

4 brief, in brief is the legislative basis for 

5 the Energy Conservation Standards for 

6 commercial industrial equipment, including 

7 commercial packaged boilers. 

8 The Energy Policy and 

9 Conservation Act of 1975, EPCA, provides DOE 

10 authority to regulate the energy efficiency 

11 of several types of equipment. The Energy 

12 Policy Act of 1992 established Energy 

13 Conservation Standards for commercial 

14 packaged boilers. 

15 The Energy Independence and 

16 Security Act of 2007 and the American Energy 

17 Manufacturing Technical Corrections Act both 

18 amended EPCA to require that every six years 

19 the Secretary of Energy publish either a 

20 notice if standards for product do not need 

21 to be amended or a notice of proposed 

22 rulemaking to include proposed new standards. 
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1 Where the Energy Policy and 

2 Conservation Act, as amended, prescribes 

3 Energy Conservation Standards for certain 

4 commercial packaged boilers the Department of 

5 Energy is considering further amendments to 

6 those standards. 

7 Here are the Energy Conservation 

8 Standards for commercial packaged boilers. 

9 They are codified under subpart E of Title 10 

10 of the Code of Federal Regulations Part 431. 

11 And today's public meeting is the forefront 

12 of the rulemaking process to consider 

13 amending these standards. DOE intends to 

14 publish a final rule and the amended 

15 standards by July 2016. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I'm just 

17 going to get rid of that window. Thank you. 

18 MR. RABA: Another quick look at 

19 the standards for commercial packaged 

20 boilers. We move on. Jack, we 

21 are frozen. 

22 (Pause.) 
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1 MR. RABA: So here is a brief 

2 overview of the rulemaking process and the 

3 steps that DOE will take. The Energy 

4 Conservation Standards process is pretty 

5 simple, albeit very thorough. The framework 

6 document, followed by the preliminary 

7 analysis, a notice of proposed rulemaking and 

8 then a final rule. 

9 In parallel, there is a test 

10 procedure rulemaking, which will be the 

11 notice of proposed rulemaking and, 

12 thereafter, a final rule. Now these are 

13 separate processes but they have integrated 

14 timelines and will proceed in parallel. And 

15 the test procedure rulemaking is shorter, 

16 about a year and a half, and the standards 

17 rulemaking will take about three years from 

18 start to finish. 

19 And notice also that as a note, 

20 Section 6313(a)6) of EPCA provides certain 

21 requirements for amending an existing 

22 standard. For example, when ASHRAE, IES 
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1 Standard 90.1 is amended, or second, by 

2 determination of the Secretary of Energy. 

3 Now in determining whether any 

4 new or amended standards are economically 

5 justified, DOE must assess whether the 

6 benefits of a proposed standard exceeds 

7 burdens by considering these seven factors. 

8 Now these include economic impact 

9 on manufacturers and consumers, projected 

10 energy savings, the impact on utility or 

11 performance, impact on competition, and an 

12 environmental impact assessment. You see the 

13 complete list on your screen. 

14 Now with each assessment, DOE 

15 performs several analyses to consider these 

16 factors and we will address each one today. 

17 Any questions, so far? 

18 (Pause.) 

19 MR. RABA: So today, this is the 

20 first stage of the rulemaking process for 

21 commercial packaged boilers, the framework 

22 document and hence, today's public meeting. 
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1 The framework document provides an overview 

2 of the rulemaking process, including the 

3 procedural analytical approaches that the 

4 Department of Energy anticipates using to 

5 evaluate potential amended energy 

6 conservation standards. 

7 Following that, the preliminary 

8 analysis, the second stage of the rulemaking 

9 process that includes further examination of 

10 design options to increase efficiency, 

11 markups, life-cycle cost and payback period, 

12 national impacts, and impacts on 

13 manufacturers. A Federal Register notice of 

14 the public meeting are projected for July 

15 2014. 

16 Following the preliminary 

17 analysis and consideration of public 

18 comments, DOE will then issue a notice of 

19 proposed rulemaking to include proposed 

20 energy levels, efficiency levels and invite 

21 comments. 

22 And then the final rule is 
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1 published after careful consideration of all 

2 the analysis, data, information, and public 

3 comments. Here, publication of the final 

4 rule in the Federal Register is estimated to 

5 be July 2016, which would roughly correspond 

6 to the effective date and, thereafter, the 

7 compliance date is projected to be July 2019. 

8 So in concert with the rulemaking 

9 process of Energy Efficiency Standards for 

10 commercial packaged boilers, DOE will be 

11 examining the current test procedures under 

12 Subpart E of Title 10 of the Code of Federal 

13 Regulations Part 431 and the need for updates 

14 or revisions. DOE encourages your comments 

15 on the test procedures. 

16 MR. SACHS: Now or -- 

17 MR. RABA: Today, yes. This will 

18 be part in our presentations. Later on you 

19 will hear more about them. If you would like 

20 to offer a comment at this time, that is 

21 fine, too. 

22 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Jim. This 
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1 is Harvey Sachs with ACEEE. 

2 And just sort of expressing a 

3 concern that it is not clear whether there 

4 will be opportunities to review things like 

5 the 15-year effort at 155(P) but I think many 

6 of us in the advocacy community and many of 

7 the design engineers are very concerned that 

8 the present test method with its focus on 

9 steady state, 100 degree temperature rise and 

10 things like this, is an inadequate way to 

11 characterize modern boilers. And we hope 

12 that DOE is planning some extensive work on 

13 what an appropriate test method would look 

14 like going forward, since ASHRAE has been 

15 unable to complete one. 

16 Thank you. 

17 MR. RABA: Good point, Harvey. 

18 Thank you very much. It is a good point. We 

19 will study that very carefully. Thank you. 

20 And further comments at this time or later on 

21 as we proceed in the presentations today will 

22 be very welcome. 
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1 So from the proposed rule for 

2 test procedures, we would proceed into a 

3 final rule at some point. Similar to the 

4 efficiency standards rulemaking process, 

5 there is a test procedures final rule stage 

6 where DOE considers all the comments 

7 received, makes any appropriate revisions to 

8 the test procedure and establishes the 

9 effective date for the rulemaking. 

10 For example, say 30 days after 

11 publication of a final rule in the Federal 

12 Register, the effective date starts the clock 

13 running to a compliance date that is 

14 compatible with the standards rulemaking. 

15 Now a planned publication date 

16 for the test procedures final rule is July 

17 2015. And projected compliance date for the 

18 standards is July 2019. 

19 So here is a time line for 

20 commercial packaged boilers standards and 

21 test procedures. The preliminary standards 

22 analysis public meeting is schedule for some 
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1 time next summer with the proposed rule 

2 public meeting the following summer. The 

3 test procedure proposed rule will be 

4 published in the fall of 2014 and the final 

5 rule in the summer of 2015. 

6 This all leads to publication of 

7 the Energy Conservation Standards final rule 

8 July 2016. 

9 At the end of each of the 

10 rulemaking stages shown, there is an 

11 opportunity for public comment through 

12 meetings such as this one, as well as by 

13 written comment. Comments about today's 

14 rulemaking framework are due no later than 

15 October 18th. 

16 Questions about the time line 

17 schedule projection? 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey 

19 Sachs. 

20 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

21 Jim, as I think about the test 

22 procedure notice of proposed rulemaking, as 
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1 well as the preliminary analysis, the 

2 underlying question is as you are looking at 

3 trial standard levels and things like this, 

4 will your analysis be based on 

5 straightforward application of today's test 

6 method or will you being doing either a bin 

7 analysis or better yet hourly analysis so we 

8 are really looking at the energy of different 

9 types of boilers, energy consumption over the 

10 annual cycle of boilers. This is not a 

11 question of whether we are using something 

12 analogous to SEER in the ultimate test method 

13 but a question of how you are calculating the 

14 energy savings at different trial standard 

15 levels. 

16 MR. RABA: It's a good question, 

17 Harvey. Thank you. 

18 MR. SACHS: But I want an answer. 

19 MR. RABA: I don't have an answer 

20 now. That is why we want your comments and 

21 your analyses. 

22 Consider this, though. For now 
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1 we just have the known commodity of the test 

2 procedure that is in the regulations. And we 

3 do hope and expect really comments back from 

4 you folks, the public and those either in the 

5 room or on the webinar to give us your 

6 thoughts about the test procedure. Is it 

7 adequate? Is it sufficient? Does it address 

8 your concerns, the concerns of maybe the 

9 manufacturers, the users, and are the metrics 

10 going to be equivalent, the equivalent 

11 metrics? I think it would be best, if a new 

12 test procedure is considered, that it is 

13 transferrable without any loss of efficiency 

14 or shall we say re-testing that is 

15 unnecessary. The point there is this is 

16 where this process will, from the framework 

17 document on, invite your comments about the 

18 test procedure where you think it could be 

19 going, the merits of that, too. And would 

20 welcome that. So we need that common input 

21 for that, too. 

22 Any other comments to fill it in, 
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1 too, from the team or from the -- okay, none 

2 seen. 

3 So, does that help you, Harvey? 

4 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

5 Does it help you all see what people are 

6 looking for? 

7 MR. RABA: It helps a lot. 

8 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 

9 MR. RABA: Yes, sir. 

10 Further comments? 

11 (Pause.) 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So then we 

13 are going to proceed as listed in the agenda. 

14 And we are going to hear next about scope and 

15 test procedures and we are going to hear from 

16 Michael Droesch, Navigant Consulting. 

17 MR. DROESCH: DOE plans to 

18 maintain the existing scope of coverage for 

19 commercial packaged boilers. Throughout the 

20 course of the rulemaking, DOE will consider 

21 developing standards for energy consumption 

22 of commercial packaged boilers, when in 
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1 standby mode or off mode or developing 

2 standards for electric commercial packaged 

3 boilers. However, the team will need to 

4 review stakeholder comments and perform 

5 additional analysis regarding the potential 

6 benefits and impacts of additional standards 

7 before making a final decision on these 

8 issues. 

9 In August, DOE issued a Notice of 

10 Proposed Determination to clarify its 

11 authority to regulate natural draft 

12 commercial packaged boilers. The coverage 

13 determination has not changed the scope of 

14 DOE's coverage of commercial packaged 

15 boilers. However, as a part of this 

16 rulemaking, the team will consider how best 

17 to regulate natural draft commercial packaged 

18 boilers going forward. 

19 DOE welcomes comments on the 

20 items presented here, including any general 

21 comments on the proposed scope of coverage. 

22 In particular in Items 2-2 and 2-3, DOE is 
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1 interested in receiving comments on the need 

2 to or benefit of developing additional 

3 efficiency standards for commercial packaged 

4 boilers, such as standards for standby or off 

5 mode or standards for electric boilers. 

6 In Item 2-4, DOE is interested in 

7 receiving any feedback on whether there are 

8 any size or capacity limits above which it is 

9 infeasible to conduct efficiency testing on 

10 commercial packaged boilers using the current 

11 test procedure. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: There you 

13 see the comment boxes. Comments at this 

14 point? Harvey Sachs. 

15 MR. SACHS: With respect to item 

16 -- Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. With respect to Item 

17 2-3, in your analyses, do you propose to 

18 provide some information on your estimates of 

19 the fraction of annual energy used that would 

20 be associated with standby and off mode, as 

21 well as actual values that might be 

22 reasonable for limits on these? It is not 
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1 clear to me that 15 watts of standby or off 

2 mode on a 2,000,000 BTU boiler is really 

3 something I want to spend much time on but I 

4 hope you will. 

5 MR. DROESCH: Yes, we appreciate 

6 the comment. And that is exactly what we 

7 plan to look into as we move forward with the 

8 preliminary analysis and we will use that as 

9 a basis for our decision. 

10 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, 

12 Phillip. 

13 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, 

14 HTP. 

15 One of the items that we had a 

16 lot of conversation with in the recent ASRAC 

17 meetings ASRAC meetings were the delineations 

18 of the ranges of input for commercial 

19 boilers. There were a lot of different 

20 proposals. One of the more common one was a 

21 three-tiered approach where anything from 

22 300,000 to 2.5 million would be considered 
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1 small. And then 2.5 to 5.0 medium and larger 

2 than 5,000,000 BTUs would be large. There is 

3 a lot of rationale that went behind that. As 

4 far as the labs, most everyone could test up 

5 to 2.5, 2.0 to 2.5. But once you got above 

6 5,000,000 BTUs, it was very difficult to find 

7 someone that could test outside of the 

8 manufacturers. Not all manufacturers have 

9 that capability either. But there were a 

10 number of different viewpoints on that. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

12 Additional comments on Item 2-1, 

13 2-2, 2-3, and 2-4? 

14 MR. HALLEY: This is Geoff Halley 

15 with ABMA. And I think for Item 2-3, I think 

16 we don't want to lose sight of the fact that 

17 there could be some potential safety issues 

18 when you look at standby mode losses, 

19 particularly if you start putting 100 percent 

20 shutoff stack dampers in a system. I think 

21 there are probably some better options with 

22 putting 100 percent shutoff damper on the 
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1 inlet side, particular if you get to a 

2 situation where you write off erroneously and 

3 get a combustion explosion. The stack damper 

4 can increase the amount of damage done. 

5 Also, I would like to sort of go 

6 along with a lot of what Phillip said earlier 

7 that there are some real problems in testing 

8 larger units. And the fact that there is no 

9 sort of upper limit on the capacity of the 

10 commercial boilers could be a real problem 

11 long-term. 

12 As he said, there are no easy 

13 methods of testing larger units. They are 

14 much more expensive than the numbers that we 

15 have heard for testing this morning. And I 

16 think that whole system needs to be reviewed. 

17 I think the test procedure currently 

18 available looks to me as though it has its 

19 foundations in residential units way back in 

20 probably the '50s. 

21 I think the pressures need to be 

22 looked at, the temperatures need to be looked 
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1 at. Because they may be suitable for certain 

2 boilers but they certainly are not acceptable 

3 for some of the larger units. For example, a 

4 fire-tube boiler, you cannot operate it 

5 successfully at 2 psi. It has got to be up 

6 around 10 or 12 psi in order to get good 

7 steam quality. There are plenty of things 

8 and I will document these by the 18th of 

9 October but I think that the test procedure 

10 is in need of some serious updating. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

12 thank you very much. 

13 MR. HALLEY: I will rest my 

14 comments on that point for now. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And as you 

16 have noted, the Department would like that 

17 all of that in detailed comment in written 

18 form. 

19 MR. HALLEY: Right. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

21 Yes, Phillip. 

22 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, 
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1 HTP. I was wondering, is the Department 

2 considering expanding the scope of the same 

3 activity for residential boilers? I believe 

4 we use IEC 62301 for determining the off-mode 

5 and standby power consumption for residential 

6 boilers. Are you just looking at expanding 

7 that same test method to the larger boilers? 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ashley 

9 Armstrong. 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley 

11 from DOE. So, generally as a basis we start 

12 with 62301 because the statute points us that 

13 way for residential. And I think where it 

14 makes sense, we like to be consistent with 

15 our methods at the Department, but we don't 

16 necessarily have to do that for commercial 

17 packaged boilers. So if there is a better 

18 way to do things or a different way to do 

19 things, we would consider that as part of 

20 this. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

22 Ashley. 
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1 Other comments here at this 

2 juncture? Nothing additional. Okay. 

3 MR. DROESCH: DOE plans to 

4 conduct a test procedure rulemaking in 

5 parallel with the ongoing energy conservation 

6 standards rulemaking. DOE published the last 

7 final rule regarding commercial packaged 

8 boilers test procedures in July of 2009, 

9 which updated the test procedure to 

10 incorporate by reference the latest revision 

11 of the Hydronics Institute Standard BTS-2000 

12 Revision 06.07 of the Method to Determine 

13 Efficiency of Commercial Space Heating 

14 Boilers. 

15 Recently, DOE has received 

16 comments that some manufacturers have 

17 experienced difficulties testing certain 

18 basic models in accordance with the 

19 requirements of BTS-2000. As a part of the 

20 test procedure rulemaking, DOE is actively 

21 reviewing these comments and is evaluating 

22 the need for revisions or updates to the 
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1 current DOE test procedure. 

2 The current test procedure uses 

3 thermal efficiency as the standard efficiency 

4 measure for the majority of the equipment 

5 classes, although large hot water, gas, and 

6 oil-fired boilers use combustion efficiency 

7 both as measured by BTS-2000. 

8 DOE welcomes comments on the 

9 commercial packaged boiler test procedure 

10 overall. In particular, Items 3-2 and 3-3 

11 are both concerned with whether there are any 

12 components of the test procedure that make it 

13 burdensome or unfeasible to conduct testing 

14 on some models. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip. 

16 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, 

17 HTP. 

18 We do recognize there are issues 

19 with the current BTS-2000. Within AHRI, I 

20 have volunteered to chair the update of the 

21 BTS-2000 and we are actively soliciting 

22 information from manufacturers for the issues 
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1 they have so that we can address the 

2 situation. 

3 I was very interested to learn of 

4 the test procedure that you are planning to 

5 update. I am assuming that this may entirely 

6 be something completely different from BTS7 2000. If so, could you elaborate on that? 

8 MR. DROESCH: Thank you. We 

9 actually haven't made a decision yet on 

10 whether or not this will be an update or 

11 something completely different from BTS-2000 

12 but we would appreciate any information that 

13 you can provide regarding whether BTS-2000 is 

14 still appropriate or whether there may be an 

15 alternative test procedure that is more 

16 appropriate. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey 

18 Sachs. 

19 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs, 

20 ACEEE. 

21 On slide 26, I am very concerned 

22 about the language in the tertiary bullet at 
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1 the top, which says in the current 

2 rulemaking, DOE plans to analyze the 

3 alternative test procedures that are 

4 available and widely accepted within the 

5 industry. 

6 I fear that that may not be 

7 adequate. I certainly feel strongly that 

8 BTS-2000 is essentially irrelevant for design 

9 engineers who are trying to compare 

10 efficiencies with alternative products in the 

11 market in the range of sizes commonly used in 

12 buildings. It may or may not have been a 

13 good water heater test with 100 degree 

14 temperature rise minimum but it tells you 

15 nothing about performance of a boiler with a 

16 20 degree drop or something like that between 

17 supply and return at part-load conditions. 

18 It is my belief, my hypothesis, 

19 which is open for refutation, that unless we 

20 get to at least an additional part-load 

21 measure at the lowest supply and return 

22 temperatures a boiler can stand, we are not 
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1 going to be meeting the objectives of the 

2 minimum information required for the client, 

3 who in this case is the design engineer. 

4 End of rant. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip. 

6 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, 

7 HTP. 

8 I would like to amend what I said 

9 earlier. We are not just soliciting feedback 

10 from manufacturers. We are also soliciting 

11 feedback from advocacy groups. 

12 MR. SACHS: You didn't invite me, 

13 yet. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ashley 

15 Armstrong. 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you tell me 

17 your timing for that? Not just for revising, 

18 for finishing the process. 

19 MR. STEPHENS: We haven't got 

20 that far, yet. We have another meeting week 

21 after next, where we are planning to pull all 

22 the information we have back together. 
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1 I would like to encourage all 

2 manufacturers on the list to contact -- I am 

3 going to throw him under the bus -- Aykut at 

4 AHRI and forward their list of concerns to 

5 him so that we can achieve that time line and 

6 that goal. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Say it 

8 again, Phillip. Who at AHRI? 

9 MR. STEPHENS: Aykut Yilmaz. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

11 MR. STEPHENS: Amazingly enough, 

12 it is spelled just like it sounds. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

14 Harvey, you said a moment ago, I believe you 

15 said if I heard you correctly, that ASHRAE 

16 was working on this and they hadn't come to a 

17 conclusion. Is that correct? 

18 MR. SACHS: Under the leadership 

19 of Martha Hewitt at ASHRAE, I spent about 15 

20 years trying to develop what amounted to a 

21 performance map for commercial boilers. It 

22 was widely regarded by manufacturers as 
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1 requiring far more information than they 

2 could feasibly provide. So that seems to be 

3 in hiatus now. That might be a lovely thing 

4 to get to eventually. It might not be. It 

5 might not be worth it. 

6 What is very clear to me is that 

7 unless working within the legal constraints 

8 we can find a way to provide a part-load 

9 metric, we are not serving the client at all. 

10 And just to elaborate for a second, I spent 

11 parts of about two years trying to help the 

12 leading incentives organization discontinue 

13 incentives for non-condensing boilers because 

14 the performance gap between a non-condensing 

15 and a condensing on BTS-2000 is typically ten 

16 points. 

17 Durkin and others have certainly 

18 showed empirically with field data that well19 designed non-condensing system -- I'm sorry. 

20 A well-designed condensing system in a real 

21 building is likely to obtain 40 percent 

22 savings by using low temperature circulation. 
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1 Whether or not that is feasible in all 

2 buildings is not the point. And I am 

3 certainly not asking, at this point, for a 

4 ban on non-condensing boilers across the 

5 board. But it is absolutely imperative that 

6 those who are doing incentive programs and 

7 the designers who are doing commercial 

8 buildings have information they can use, not 

9 only for their designs but to help them 

10 explain to owners why the performance 

11 difference is likely to be highly cost12 effective for their clients. And BTS-2000 

13 does a remarkably good job, in my opinion, of 

14 obscuring that information. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

16 thank you. 

17 Comment? No, not at this time. 

18 Okay. Final comments on -- do they address 

19 all of these items? Did you hit 3-4? 

20 MR. DROESCH: We haven't 

21 actually. Yes, thank you for your comments 

22 on BTS-2000. 
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1 In addition, in Item 3-4, DOE is 

2 interested in receiving stakeholder feedback 

3 on any alternative industry test methods and 

4 how these methods may improve or not improve 

5 upon the current DOE standard. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip, 

7 do you want to say anything additional in 

8 response to 3-4? 

9 MR. STEPHENS: It would take a 

10 few minutes. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, okay. 

12 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens. 

13 I have a lot of detail to go into. I think 

14 it would be more appropriate if I were to 

15 just submit it directly to the Department. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

17 thank you. Will that be from your working 

18 group or you personally? Who will it be 

19 from? 

20 MR. STEPHENS: From HTP, 

21 originally and then AHRI will, I am sure, 

22 also provide commentary. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Great, 

2 thank you. Okay, please proceed. 

3 MR. DROESCH: Next, I will hand 

4 it over to Danielle Fox from LBNL to discuss 

5 our approach for the preliminary analysis. 

6 MS. FOX: Good morning. My name 

7 is Danielle Fox from the Lawrence Berkeley 

8 National Laboratory. 

9 So starting today with the 

10 preliminary analysis, we will discuss each of 

11 the items listed here, starting with the 

12 market and technology assessment. 

13 So the purpose of the market and 

14 technology assessment is to characterize the 

15 boiler market, the industry, and available 

16 measure to improve efficiency. 

17 The method includes identifying 

18 and characterizing the manufacturers of 

19 commercial packaged boilers, estimating 

20 historical shipments and trends in the 

21 market, identifying regulatory and non22 regulatory initiatives intended to improve 
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1 efficiency of the covered boiler equipment, 

2 characterize equipment currently available on 

3 the market and to identify technology options 

4 that could improve efficiency. 

5 So one main task of the market 

6 and technology assessment is to establish 

7 equipment classes. DOE may divide covered 

8 equipment into equipment classes by the type 

9 of energy used; the capacity of the 

10 equipment; or any other performance-related 

11 feature that justifies different standard 

12 levels. 

13 At this time, DOE plans to 

14 maintain all commercial packaged boiler 

15 equipment classes and may consider equipment 

16 classes for electric commercial packaged 

17 boilers. 

18 And as commented earlier in the 

19 August proposed determination, DOE discusses 

20 the natural draft boilers. 

21 Okay. So, starting with Item 5-

22 1, DOE welcomes data that would contribute to 
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1 its market assessment. 

2 Item 5-2, DOE welcomes 

3 information about interested parties for this 

4 rulemaking, which may include manufacturers, 

5 trade associations, and other advocacy 

6 organizations. 

7 And Item 5-3, DOE welcomes 

8 comment on its considered equipment classes 

9 and whether there are any other performance10 related features that it should consider in 

11 this rulemaking. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey 

13 Sachs. 

14 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs 

15 from ACEEE. And Chuck Foster may agree with 

16 me on this and that would be historic. But 

17 help me understand how I can make an 

18 inefficient electric boiler. 

19 MS. FOX: I think right now it is 

20 just under consideration of whether to 

21 reserve this, especially if standby and off 

22 mode is pursued. But yes, that -- 
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1 MR. SACHS: I mean if I have a 60 

2 kw boiler, can I make one that is only 90 

3 percent efficient without baking the entire 

4 enclosure it is in? 

5 MS. FOX: Right. 

6 MR. SACHS: I think that is the 

7 first question. 

8 MS. FOX: So yes, we welcome 

9 comment on whether, like I said, whether or 

10 not to pursue standards for electric boilers. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Chuck 

12 Foster. 

13 MR. FOSTER: Chuck Foster, EEI. 

14 Maybe it is historic but I think I do agree 

15 with the direction Harvey was taking. And I 

16 would only say that at a time of scarce 

17 resources, to be putting analytical and other 

18 tools into trying to figure out whether we 

19 can split a hair would not be productive in 

20 my opinion. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

22 thank you. 
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1 MS. FOX: Thank you. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Other 

3 comments on these three comment boxes? 

4 Phillip. 

5 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, 

6 HTP. 

7 We would like to encourage the 

8 Department to follow through with the small, 

9 medium and large categories in this aspect as 

10 well. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

12 Any other performance related features as 

13 queued in Item 5-3? 

14 Okay, I see none. 

15 MS. FOX: Okay, thank you. 

16 So next we have the technology 

17 options to improve efficiency and this is 

18 done in the technology assessment portion of 

19 the market and technology assessment. 

20 So here DOE will characterize 

21 available technologies on the market to 

22 improve boiler efficiency. And from the 
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1 framework document we have the boiler 

2 technologies were grouped into three areas: 

3 technology options to improve combustion or 

4 thermal efficiency; options available to 

5 reduce standby and off mode energy 

6 consumption; and options to reduce seasonal 

7 boiler energy consumption. 

8 So starting with Table 5, we 

9 summarize the technologies that would be 

10 available or that are available to improve 

11 combustion or thermal efficiency. And these 

12 include jacket insulation, condensing boilers 

13 and other heat exchanger improvements, 

14 improved burner technology, burner derating, 

15 combustion air preheaters, economizers, and 

16 the use of integrated, high-efficiency steam 

17 boilers. 

18 Table 6 summarizes the technology 

19 options to reduce standby and off mode energy 

20 consumption, which include toroidal 

21 transformers, control relay for models with 

22 brushless permanent magnet motors, and 
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1 switching mode power supplies. 

2 And then for Table 7, DOE is 

3 aware of a number of technology options that 

4 would reduce overall fuel consumption by 

5 improving the seasonal boiler efficiency. 

6 DOE would like to better understand whether 

7 any of these technologies should be 

8 considered in this rulemaking and how 

9 efficiency improvements will be captured in a 

10 test procedure. And these technologies 

11 include modulating burners, electric 

12 ignition, dampers, temperature reset 

13 controls, thermal post-purge controls, and 

14 delayed-action oil pump solenoid valves. 

15 Then listed in Item 5-4, DOE 

16 welcomes comment on the technology options 

17 identified and any additional input on the 

18 technology options that might be missing. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip. 

20 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, 

21 HTP. We have a list of things we would like 

22 to indicate to the Department. 
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1 The first is that in addition to 

2 achieving higher combustion efficiencies and 

3 overall system efficiencies, premixed 

4 combustion systems tend to have lower 

5 emissions levels. So they have added 

6 benefit. Derating a combustion system, 

7 however, is the same thing as oversizing a 

8 heat exchanger. It does work. It does 

9 provide slight increases in efficiency but it 

10 is a very difficult situation to justify the 

11 cost. 

12 Several of the technologies 

13 mentioned are not as robust in field 

14 applications as they are in the lab. Among 

15 these are pulse combustion and hot surface 

16 igniters. They tend to have more issues in 

17 the field. 

18 Additionally, one item that the 

19 Department may want to consider is the 

20 different technical systems which are used to 

21 achieve the fuel air mixture. There is a 

22 standard Venturi. 
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1 There is more advanced options 

2 that you can get to the commercial boilers 

3 that can be cost justified. These would be 

4 closer to your fuel injection system in your 

5 vehicle than a simple aerated carburetor. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

7 Many options listed here in Table 5, 6, and 

8 7. Additional comments on these? And 

9 perhaps there are others that have not been 

10 identified. 

11 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with 

12 ABMA again. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Geoff. 

14 MR. HALLEY: Sorry? 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Go ahead, 

16 Geoff. 

17 MR. HALLEY: Okay. I would like 

18 to sort of just talk about safety a little 

19 bit again. I have seen a very nasty accident 

20 in which a fatality occurred and some of the 

21 problem was attributable to combustion air 

22 preheaters. And I think the safety aspects 
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1 again should be analyzed as part of the 

2 overall evaluation, if you like. 

3 When you put a combustion 

4 preheater in, you essentially are putting an 

5 orifice in the air, combustion air inlet to 

6 the burner and you put in an orifice in the 

7 flue, if you like. So any combustion 

8 explosion that might occur for whatever 

9 reason could be -- the results could be 

10 aggravated, if you like, by the fact that you 

11 have orifices at both ends of the system. 

12 I don't know if anybody has 

13 looked at that aspect but I have seen a 

14 fatality occur and that was part of the 

15 problem. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

17 thank you. It seemed as though maybe there 

18 was another person online that wished to 

19 speak. Please do so. 

20 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss 

21 with Lochinvar. Can you hear me? 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, you 
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1 sound good. Speak up. 

2 MR. KLEISS: Okay, this is Jeff 

3 Kleiss with Lochinvar. 

4 One of the comments that I had to 

5 make was related to the switching mode, the 

6 power supply. We have made a comment on the 

7 residential boiler test procedures. There is 

8 something with the EPM pipe modulating 

9 blowers that if you switch the power off and 

10 on frequently that it is likely to damage 

11 those motors. 

12 One other comment, just regarding 

13 overall the different technology options, we 

14 noted that there are really none of these 

15 that are going to create huge improvements in 

16 efficiency. And that needs to be kept in 

17 mind that you shouldn't be expecting a vast 

18 increase in the minimum efficiency levels. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

20 Jeff. 

21 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey 
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1 Sachs. 

2 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

3 This comment applies perhaps more 

4 to 5-4 than to 6-1. Increasingly boilers, 

5 particularly in the smaller commercial sizes 

6 are an international business. We see 

7 reasonable numbers of commercial size 

8 European boilers coming into this country. I 

9 believe that the technology options 

10 considered must build from an international 

11 survey of technology options which were 

12 employed, rather than from the type of 

13 exclusively U.S. technology options that were 

14 used most recently, in my experience, in the 

15 residential water heater rulemaking. 

16 If other folks are doing things, 

17 we need to know about it. We may or may not 

18 choose to incorporate those technology 

19 advances in our standards but we need to be 

20 aware of them and aware of their potential. 

21 And we also need to be aware of whether, for 

22 better or for use, their use would not be 
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1 advised in this country because of poor 

2 maintenance practices in this country 

3 compared to others. 

4 I don't know what the answer is, 

5 but this proceeding will be deficient if we 

6 do not do our technology screening on an 

7 international basis. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

9 thank you. Other comments here on Item 5-4? 

10 A lot of technology options here to consider. 

11 Nothing additional. Okay. Yes, 

12 Frank Stanonik. 

13 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

14 AHRI. If it was discussed, I apologize for 

15 missing it. 

16 I don't understand why burner 

17 derating is considered technology option. I 

18 think the issue of efficiency for products, 

19 including commercial products, has been 

20 around long enough that one of the first 

21 things manufacturers would have done to 

22 improve the efficiency of their products is 
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1 de-rating. And I just don't -- I may be 

2 following up on what Jeff Kleiss said. I 

3 just don't see that as a significant option 

4 as we go forward here because I think it is 

5 more of a been there, done that. People are 

6 not designing boilers today that are going to 

7 be significantly -- that can be significantly 

8 improved by simply doing some burner 

9 derating. That is done in the front and not 

10 as some afterthought. 

11 I think it is there simply 

12 because it has always been there for other 

13 rulemakings. But I think in today's world 

14 and market of commercial boilers, I just 

15 don't see that as being very viable. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

17 thank you. 

18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and I 

19 would like to follow up on Frank's question 

20 with a question for Frank. 

21 It would be my assumption that in 

22 some sense derating competes with using a 
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1 part-load measure. That if I adopt a part2 load measure, hopefully in addition to the 

3 peak-load measure, I am automatically getting 

4 the benefit of an oversized, quote-unquote, 

5 heat exchanger 90 percent of the bin hours. 

6 It is not operating at full load very often. 

7 So whether or not I have a 

8 modulating burner, I am automatically getting 

9 some derating, as it were, when I am 

10 operating with a modulating or two-stage 

11 burner. 

12 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik. 

13 Harvey, I think I heard a couple 

14 of things there. First, you mentioned 

15 something about a part-load measure. 

16 MR. SACHS: Yes. 

17 MR. STANONIK: Yes, okay, but 

18 which I understand that would be for 

19 independent what kind of burner you have. 

20 And so if it was just a plain old single-fire 

21 burner and you had a part-load measure, I am 

22 actually not sure if you really do get burner 
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1 derating. But if you have got a modulating 

2 burner, if you have got a modulating burner, 

3 then I think what I was hearing and I would 

4 absolutely agree with you, the issue of 

5 burner derating becomes even less of an 

6 option because, in fact, the modulating 

7 burner is, in some ways, matching the firing 

8 to the load. 

9 And so in most cases, your heat 

10 exchange surface area didn't change. So 

11 firing a lower input just makes things 

12 better. 

13 And I think that is certainly 

14 where the industry is going is towards 

15 modulating burners. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional 

17 comments here? Okay. 

18 MS. FOX: Next we will have 

19 Michael to present the screening analysis. 

20 MR. DROESCH: In preparation for 

21 the engineering analysis, DOE will perform a 

22 preliminary evaluation of each of the 
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1 technologies identified in the market and 

2 technology assessment and screen out those 

3 technologies which do not warrant further 

4 analysis. 

5 The team will screen these 

6 technologies, based on how feasible the 

7 technologies are, how practical they are to 

8 manufacture, install, and service, what 

9 adverse effects they may have on equipment 

10 utility and availability, and how they may 

11 impact the health and safety of consumers. 

12 DOE welcomes comments on how 

13 these four screening criteria may be applied 

14 to the technology options discussed earlier. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey 

16 Sachs. 

17 MR. SACHS: I'm really not trying 

18 to do scorched earth but trying to lay out 

19 concerns so we can get to them fairly early. 

20 Your last bullet says adverse effects on 

21 health or safety. We are certainly seeing 

22 differential regulation by the air quality 
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1 regulators in California, particularly 

2 Southwest Air Quality Management District. 

3 So the argument could be made 

4 that health impacts have economic value. And 

5 the question is how DOE will consider the 

6 benefits of reduced emissions, in this case 

7 criteria pollutants, but it could be extended 

8 to carbon, as you have done in many other 

9 analyses. 

10 MR. DROESCH: Yes, DOE will 

11 evaluate the impact on the environment as a 

12 separate part of the analysis which will be 

13 discussed later. But we appreciate the 

14 comment. At this point it is just concerned 

15 with screening out technologies which may, 

16 obviously, have an adverse impact on health 

17 or safety. 

18 MR. SACHS: And this is Harvey 

19 again. And for the record, on the second 

20 part of that second -- or the bullet on 

21 approach, practicability to manufacture, 

22 install, and service, adding to my earlier 
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1 comment on 5-4, it would seem to me that the 

2 existence in a reasonable scale of a 

3 technology option in boilers sold in other 

4 countries would be prima facie evidence that 

5 something is at least worthy of being 

6 considered in the analysis for U.S. 

7 performance standards. Not the inclusion of 

8 that but as the potential efficiency. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

10 thank you. Yes, Phillip. 

11 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, 

12 HTP. 

13 In addition to my previous 

14 comments on pulse combustion and hot surface 

15 igniters, I would like to indicate that air 

16 pre-heaters and economizers, these 

17 technologies are very common and prevalent 

18 through a lot of industries. 

19 However, they are also easy to 

20 bypass in the field. And if a system is 

21 designed with one of these components in 

22 place and then someone in the field doesn't 
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1 install it or bypasses it, it can lead to 

2 safety issues. 

3 Additionally, these types of 

4 options would be expected to be more common 

5 lower efficiency appliances, which are trying 

6 to achieve an incremental increase in 

7 efficiency. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

9 thank you. 

10 Final comments on this request 

11 box, 6-1? 

12 MR. DROESCH: Next, DOE will 

13 begin the engineering analysis with the goal 

14 of establishing a cost-efficiency 

15 relationship for commercial packaged boilers 

16 and in doing so, determine appropriate 

17 efficiency levels for further consideration. 

18 The cost-efficiency relationship 

19 will serve as a primary input for downstream 

20 analyses, such as the life-cycle cost, 

21 manufacturer, and employment impact analyses. 

22 The first step in the engineering 
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1 analysis is to determine appropriate baseline 

2 models for each equipment class. DOE will 

3 then select specific representative units to 

4 analyze, representing the baseline model as 

5 well as other models spanning the range of 

6 efficiencies currently on the market. 

7 DOE intends to gather data on 

8 manufacturing costs associated with the 

9 efficiency levels of each representative 

10 unit. This may or may not include performing 

11 tear-down analyses of these units. 

12 Then for each of the 

13 representative units, DOE will analyze the 

14 impact of more stringent efficiency standards 

15 on manufacturing costs and develop a clear 

16 cost-efficiency relationship. 

17 Finally, DOE will scale the 

18 resulting cost-efficiency relationships from 

19 each of the representative units to all of 

20 the models not directly analyzed. 

21 DOE welcomes comments on the 

22 range of representative efficiency levels and 
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1 capacities that it should consider in the 

2 engineering analysis. In particular in Item 

3 7-2, DOE requests feedback on the maximum 

4 achievable efficiency levels for each 

5 equipment class. In Item 7-4, DOE is also 

6 interested in receiving feedback on any 

7 technologies or performance characteristics 

8 which may require consideration of multiple 

9 representative units within a single 

10 equipment class. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip. 

12 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, 

13 HTP. 

14 With respect to 7-2, should a 

15 manufacturer develop a max-tech prototype? 

16 How would we go about notifying the 

17 Department? And are there any drop dead 

18 dates for max-tech prototypes? 

19 MR. DARLINGTON: Adam from 

20 Navigant. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's use 

22 that microphone, please. 
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1 MR. DARLINGTON: This is Adam 

2 from Navigant. There are a couple of options 

3 there. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: It's not -

5 - Adam, get it close to you and make sure it 

6 is on. 

7 MR. DARLINGTON: Am I on? Okay. 

8 Am I good now? 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Come on up 

10 here and sit at the table. We know these are 

11 working. Thank you. 

12 MR. DARLINGTON: Okay. So this 

13 is Adam from Navigant. So basically, you 

14 have a couple of options, Phillip. You can 

15 either make a public comment and tell us 

16 about what your prototype design is what 

17 efficiency you think would achieve. I mean, 

18 you are certainly welcome to do that. Or, as 

19 usual, the Department is going to be 

20 conducting manufacturer interviews as part of 

21 the preliminary analysis. And so that would 

22 be another vehicle through which you could 
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1 contact -- well, tell the Department and 

2 certainly get that incorporated into the 

3 analysis. 

4 And as far as sort of a deadline 

5 for the consideration, I mean obviously we 

6 have to do the analysis in a certain amount 

7 of time before it becomes public because it 

8 goes through the DOE review process and that 

9 takes a little bit of time. But we 

10 reconsider the max-tech at each phase of the 

11 analysis. So we will do the preliminary 

12 analysis and we will look at what types of 

13 prototype designs and what the maximum 

14 efficiency of products that are being sold on 

15 the market is at that time and make a 

16 determination about what the max-tech is for 

17 the preliminary analysis. 

18 And then at the NOPR stage, we go 

19 back and we revise the preliminary analysis. 

20 So if there is some new design that has come 

21 on the market in the meantime, then we will 

22 definitely evaluate that as well. And then 
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1 we do that again at the final rule stage, 

2 too. So we look and we kind of actively 

3 revise the analysis as we go through the 

4 process. 

5 So there is no real hard cut-off 

6 date but at each phase of the analysis, we 

7 will look at it again. And we usually do 

8 multiple rounds of manufacturing views. 

9 There is multiple common periods. So there 

10 is multiple opportunities, if you have a 

11 prototype design to tell the Department how 

12 it is coming along. 

13 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens. 

14 Just a couple of follow-up questions. If 

15 there are already manufacturers in the AHRI 

16 database with 99 percent thermal efficiency, 

17 how does the Department weigh max-tech? Do 

18 you want to see multiple manufacturers with 

19 max-tech or multiple different inputs with 

20 max-tech? Or is there a rule of thumb? 

21 MR. DARLINGTON: It definitely 

22 doesn't need to be multiple manufacturers. 
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1 So if there is one manufacturer out there 

2 with a 99 percent, then that would presumably 

3 be the max-tech. Obviously, if there are 

4 issues with proprietary technology, we would 

5 look at that, if it is going to create a 

6 competitive disadvantage or advantage for a 

7 certain company. So, those are some things 

8 that also get considered. But there is no 

9 sort of rule that it has to be multiple 

10 manufacturers or it has to be across multiple 

11 input capacities. 

12 You know we will look at the 

13 technology. Usually, we analyze the 

14 representative input capacity and we look at 

15 the maximum there. But if we see a design in 

16 a different input capacity and think that it 

17 could be easily applied to get a higher 

18 efficiency at the representative capacity, we 

19 might look at that as well. 

20 So I guess there is no hard and 

21 fast rules with that but we just try to do 

22 whatever is logical, whatever makes sense. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional 

2 comments here? Yes, Frank Stanonik. 

3 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

4 AHRI. 

5 I am looking at these items that 

6 are identified here and looking at one of the 

7 earlier slides that talked about the schedule 

8 for the test procedure rulemaking, which by 

9 the slide is projected to be completed July 

10 2015, not quite two years from now. 

11 Assuming that the test procedure 

12 in fact has some significant changes, how are 

13 you going to manage to do what you talk about 

14 here in terms of engineering analysis for the 

15 moving target of the test procedure? Because 

16 in terms of getting a range of efficiency 

17 levels, if the test procedure changes 

18 significantly, there won't be information on 

19 efficiency levels for the new test procedure. 

20 Similarly, some of the other 

21 issues may be affected by the change in the 

22 test procedures. I am a little curious -- I 
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1 will put it this way. I am more than a 

2 little concerned that a schedule that will 

3 tell the industry what the revised final rule 

4 on the test procedure is in July 2015 and 

5 then at the same time have at least a NOPR 

6 for this standard rulemaking, I just don't 

7 see how the engineering analysis that leads 

8 up to the NOPR will be able to reflect 

9 whatever affects the revised test procedure 

10 may have. I think it is -- I am concerned 

11 that it is going to put the industry in a 

12 difficult position of trying to address two 

13 moving targets at the same time. 

14 MR. DROESCH: Yes, thank you for 

15 your comment. We understand the concern and 

16 that is obviously something that we are 

17 managing, the Department is managing. We are 

18 aiming to complete the test procedure, as we 

19 said, before completing the NOPR. And so 

20 obviously we will have to make do with the 

21 test procedures that we have in the meantime. 

22 But if there are any significant changes, 
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1 that is something that we would address in 

2 the final stage. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank. 

4 MR. STANONIK: Again, I apologize 

5 for not being here earlier but I was actually 

6 hoping for some direct answer yesterday as to 

7 whether this meeting was going to happen or 

8 not. 

9 But anyhow, so -- okay and there 

10 is another point here. So, is this framework 

11 the official announcement of the rulemaking 

12 for the test procedures or is there going to 

13 be another Federal Register notice that 

14 actually says we are revising the test 

15 procedure? 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jim Raba. 

17 MR. RABA: Jim Raba, DOE. The 

18 framework document in this case addresses the 

19 standards, which officially begins the 

20 standards rulemaking but also addresses test 

21 procedures because you look for data and 

22 input. The actual beginning of the test 
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1 procedure rulemaking would be with the 

2 proposed rule later on. 

3 But this serves to open 

4 discussion now for your points and others we 

5 have heard here today, get some feedback as 

6 to the potential for revising the test 

7 procedures, pros and cons, things like that. 

8 So, we want to get that data 

9 input and comments back early on so we can 

10 start to consider more thoroughly later on 

11 when the proposed rule comes out down the 

12 road, we have something to start with. Right 

13 now we are just exploring and inviting 

14 comments. But the actual rulemaking for test 

15 procedures was down the road in the proposed 

16 rule, which the time line showed, going 

17 quickly back, -- 

18 MR. STANONIK: About a year. 

19 MR. RABA: -- about a year from 

20 now. Yes, that's right. 

21 So, this is kind of the entry 

22 level to get a jump on it, get people's 
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1 thoughts and input now and the work in 

2 process now for other groups, expert groups. 

3 So it will be very helpful to hear how that 

4 goes, too. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Michael, 

6 did you queue item 7-4? 

7 MR. DROESCH: Yes, I believe we 

8 did. Does anyone have any comments? 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Looking at 

10 these four comment boxes, any additional 

11 comments at this time? 

12 Phillip. 

13 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, 

14 HTP. Can we get clarification? I just 

15 wasn't very sure I understood the intent of 

16 question 7-4. 

17 MR. DROESCH: So if we can, or if 

18 any stakeholders can identify specific 

19 technologies or performance characteristics 

20 which may lead to significantly different 

21 cost-efficiency relationships for different 

22 models within a single equipment class, then 
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1 we may need to consider multiple sets of 

2 representative units for that class. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank. 

4 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik. 

5 All right, so I understood every word you 

6 said but I didn't understand the answer. 

7 What is the concept of multiple 

8 representative units within a single 

9 equipment class? What are we talking about? 

10 MR. DARLINGTON: This is Adam 

11 Darlington from Navigant. 

12 So, I think what we are asking 

13 here is just we do our analysis based on the 

14 equipment classes that are in place. And 

15 typically we look at or we try to look at 

16 what is a typical commercial boiler. You 

17 know so say gas hot water boiler is small for 

18 instance, you might have one design that is 

19 just sort of a cast iron commercial boiler or 

20 you might have a fire-tube steel boiler. So 

21 the cost and efficiency relationship or the 

22 cost of improving the efficiency of one type 
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1 of boiler might be -- we are asking is it 

2 vastly different enough to where we need to 

3 consider okay, what is the cost-efficiency 

4 relationship for this type. What is the 

5 cost-efficiency relationship for this type. 

6 And then come up with some way to do like a 

7 weighted average or merge them together into 

8 a cost-efficiency relationship over the 

9 entire equipment class. 

10 So does that make sense? Does 

11 that help clarify? Okay. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

13 Other thoughts, comments here? 

14 Okay. 

15 MR. DROESCH: Thank you. Now, I 

16 will hand it over to Danielle to cover the 

17 markup analysis. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: In just a 

19 few moments, we will take a break, by the 

20 way. 

21 MS. FOX: Okay, so next we will 

22 discuss the markups analysis. Its purpose is 
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1 to characterize the channels for how the 

2 equipment is distributed from the 

3 manufacturer to the end user and to determine 

4 the price paid by the end user, based on 

5 manufacturer selling prices for the baseline 

6 and higher-efficiency equipment. 

7 Here, DOE plans to identify the 

8 distribution channels and to estimate the 

9 markups for each step of the distribution 

10 channel from manufacturer to end user. 

11 So this next slide presents the 

12 distribution channels identified by DOE in 

13 the framework document. For commercial 

14 packaged boilers, there is two key markets, 

15 the replacements and new construction. 

16 As shown in channel A, the 

17 replacement distribution channel involves a 

18 wholesaler and mechanical contractor. And as 

19 shown in channel B, the new construction 

20 distribution channel involves a wholesaler, 

21 mechanical contractor, and general 

22 contractor. 
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1 Additionally, DOE is considering 

2 the distribution channels where the end user 

3 may purchase the packaged boiler directly 

4 from the manufacturer via a national account 

5 and where the end user may purchase a boiler 

6 directly from a wholesaler, as shown in 

7 channels C and D. 

8 So, for the markups analysis, as 

9 listed in Item 8-1, DOE seeks input on the 

10 distribution channels described on the 

11 previous slide and whether they are 

12 appropriate for commercial packaged boilers. 

13 Item 8-2, DOE seeks input on the 

14 percentage of equipment being distributed 

15 through the different channels. 

16 And Item 8-3, DOE welcomes 

17 suggestions and comments concerning its 

18 proposed approach to developing estimates of 

19 future commercial packaged boiler retail 

20 prices. 

21 And Item 8-4, DOE seeks recent 

22 data, in order to establish the markups for 
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1 the parties involved with each distribution 

2 channel. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey 

4 Sachs. 

5 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

6 Danielle, in my mental picture 

7 and I am asking about this clarification of 

8 the definition. A wholesaler takes 

9 possession and ownership of a piece of 

10 equipment. He warehouses it, provides other 

11 services. It has been my sense that much of 

12 the commercial boiler equipment, like a lot 

13 of other boiler equipment, instead goes from 

14 mechanical contractor to a manufacturer's 

15 representative, who deals with the 

16 manufacturer. And that manufacturer's 

17 representative never takes ownership of the 

18 equipment, but represents the manufacturer as 

19 an independent agent with a line card. 

20 And I am not sure whether my 

21 impression of this being rather prevalent is 

22 true or not but I certainly think it warrants 
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1 consideration as equipment moves up from 

2 residential sizes into the true commercial 

3 world with some hand holding required. 

4 MS. FOX: Okay, so you are 

5 suggesting another distribution channel? 

6 MR. SACHS: Yes, ma'am, I am. 

7 MS. FOX: Yes, okay. 

8 MR. SACHS: And I really am 

9 asking the manufacturers and others in the 

10 industry to help you understand whether that 

11 channel might have quite different markups. 

12 And I am not sure at all whether in boilers 

13 as opposed to some other HVAC equipment that 

14 is really an important channel or whether it 

15 is just from the margin. 

16 MS. FOX: Great, thank you. 

17 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with 

18 ABMA. 

19 Harvey is exactly right. 

20 Certainly the manufacturers that ABMA 

21 represent, which are let's say above 

22 4,000,000 or 5,000,000 BTU input are 
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1 typically they use a manufacturer's rep. 

2 They sell to a mechanical contractor or, in 

3 some cases, even an end user, depending on 

4 the size of the installation and so on, the 

5 type of installation. 

6 So, there is another distribution 

7 channel that should be included, in my 

8 opinion. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

10 thank you. What about some of these 

11 distribution channels? And can you say among 

12 these what the relative percentages are? How 

13 product moves among these what would be now 

14 five distribution channels, the one that 

15 Geoff and Harvey referred to would be the new 

16 E, I presume. 

17 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley again. 

18 I don't have a good feel for it. I think 

19 certainly below the 2.5 million BTU you have 

20 got a much higher unit count, but I am not 

21 sure how the BTU comparison would size up. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 
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1 Frank Stanonik. 

2 MR. STANONIK: I'm Stanonik with 

3 AHRI. 

4 First of all, I have never seen 

5 any data that would answer that question as 

6 to what percentage of equipment goes to which 

7 distribution channel. I would suggest that 

8 perhaps the better question would be an 

9 attempt to distinguish as the product 

10 increases in input which distribution 

11 channels become the common ones. 

12 Again, I think as Jeff was 

13 saying, if my business is selling half a 

14 million BTU boilers, 500,000 BTU boilers, I 

15 can foresee that that might be distributed 

16 through certain channels. But if I am 

17 distributing an 8,000,000 to 10,000,000 BTU 

18 boiler, I would tend to think that probably 

19 goes through a different distribution 

20 channel, just by the very fact that I am 

21 probably not going to stock a lot of those 

22 anywhere, just for starters. 
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1 So I think maybe the better idea 

2 would be to see which channels are prevalent 

3 as the equipment becomes larger in input and 

4 with all the associated issues of how do you 

5 manage getting those from Point A to Point B, 

6 how do you manage having them available when 

7 somebody wants one and all those good things. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

9 thank you. Other comments on this 

10 distribution channel, these models? 

11 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And 

12 Danielle, I would suggest that the 

13 transcripts from the ASRAC working group may 

14 be very helpful because there was a great 

15 deal of discussion about the issues that 

16 Frank has pointed to. 

17 In addition to that, there is an 

18 enormous amount of variability in what we 

19 eventually wound up calling built to stock, 

20 as opposed to built to order, which is rather 

21 prevalent in the larger classes. And then 

22 there was custom on top of that, which again 
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1 you would expect to be more prevalent in the 

2 larger sizes. 

3 But I think this distribution 

4 channel thing is not just size dependent but 

5 also the characteristics in the market for 

6 the particular equipment. 

7 MS. FOX: Thank you. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, thank 

9 you. Additional comments here? 

10 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley again. 

11 We did a survey of our membership 

12 at ABMA. And the entire group are working on 

13 a built to order setup. They don't build 

14 anything for stock. I don't know whether 

15 that helps at all but the marketplace is 

16 purely built to order from our point of view. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

18 thank you. 

19 And I guess does that confirm 

20 then what you said earlier about the 

21 distribution channel? 

22 MR. HALLEY: Yes. Yes, the 
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1 actual order -- the input to the order, if 

2 you like, comes from basically an engineering 

3 group who are designing the installation. 

4 They decide what they want in terms of 

5 capacities, the bells and whistles, they go 

6 along with it, emissions, and that sort of 

7 thing. And then that flows through a 

8 mechanical contractor for the bidding process 

9 to start. But every unit, they have a 

10 standard heat exchanger, basically. But the 

11 whole system beyond that is built to order. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

13 thank you. 

14 Additional and perhaps final 

15 comments on these comment boxes, markups 

16 analysis? Nothing additional. 

17 I think we should take a break at 

18 this point. It is almost 10:30 here. Let's 

19 take a break, which means we will resume at 

20 10:45. 

21 We are making good progress. We 

22 are ahead of schedule. The comments have 
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1 been excellent. The Department would like to 

2 have more of it and also have it in written 

3 comments in their inbox. 

4 Most of you are familiar with the 

5 Forrestal Building. You must wear this 

6 visitor's badge or some form of 

7 identification above your waist. 

8 There are restrooms on both ends 

9 of the hall. There is a coffee shop on the 

10 ground floor, elevators straight on down. If 

11 you are going to go get coffee, do it 

12 quickly. Sometimes they are slow down there. 

13 And we will resume at 10:45 but 

14 thanks for a good start on the day. We will 

15 see you back here in 15 minutes. 

16 (Whereupon, the foregoing proceeding went off 

17 the record at 10:26 a.m. and went 

18 back on the record at 10:52 a.m.) 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's 

20 resume. Thanks for your patience. We are 

21 going to take it back to Danielle. 

22 MS. FOX: Thank you. So next is 
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1 the energy use analysis, which develops the 

2 annual energy use for commercial packaged 

3 boilers in order to estimate the energy 

4 savings potential of amended standards in the 

5 life-cycle cost and payback period analysis. 

6 Here, DOE plans to determine 

7 space heating and water heating use over the 

8 range of applications, commercial building 

9 types, and climate zones for packaged boiler 

10 equipment. 

11 DOE also plans to develop a 

12 relationship between packaged boiler energy 

13 use and thermal efficiency in order to 

14 determine the energy use by efficiency level 

15 for all equipment classes. And DOE also 

16 plans to account for the electricity 

17 consumption of the package boiler components. 

18 And as listed in Item 9-1, DOE 

19 seeks input on the planned approach for 

20 determining energy consumption of packaged 

21 boilers in commercial buildings. 

22 And Item 9-2, DOE seeks 
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1 historical shipment-weighted packaged boiler 

2 efficiency data. And here, DOE is primarily 

3 interested in obtaining these data during the 

4 last ten years, in order to capture the 

5 impact of the most current technologies on 

6 the boilers market. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip, I 

8 thought I would give you a chance. 

9 MR. STEPHENS: Thank you. I 

10 would like to learn more about how the 

11 Department is estimating the hot water 

12 consumed or used for heating. Is this by 

13 standard design practices with a 

14 stereotypical building, or is this from 

15 direct to measurement, or what method? 

16 MS. FOX: Right. It will depend 

17 on what type of data is available. You know 

18 the idea is to perform this in the energy use 

19 analysis, the methodology I think is still 

20 under development at this stage of the 

21 rulemaking. 

22 So any input on that factor would 
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1 be greatly appreciated. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank 

3 Stanonik. 

4 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

5 AHRI. 

6 Having been involved in ASHRAE 

7 standard 90.1 for a very long time, I know 

8 that in support of DOE's support of that 

9 standard, PNNL has a methodology, a computer 

10 program if you will, that estimates energy 

11 consumption of certain types of commercial 

12 buildings on a total basis looking at all the 

13 systems in there. But it seems to me that 

14 that same methodology could certainly be, 

15 let's say, subdivided or whatever to strictly 

16 look at the consumption of the heating 

17 system, which in this case would be a 

18 commercial packaged boiler. 

19 So I am wondering if there has 

20 been any attempt yet to look at the tool that 

21 already is being used by PNNL to estimate 

22 energy consumption for commercial systems. 
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1 MS. FOX: Yes, we will look into 

2 that as part of this analysis. 

3 MR. STANONIK: Because they have, 

4 I don't remember the exact number, but they 

5 have, I think, I want to say somewhere 

6 between eight and maybe twelve building 

7 types, small office, high rise residential, 

8 and on and on and on. Then they are 

9 characterized also by climate zones and 

10 things of that nature. 

11 So I think there may be a tool 

12 there that certainly has been used for quite 

13 some time in supporting 90.1 levels that may 

14 have some usefulness here. Because 

15 otherwise, I am not sure -- I will put it 

16 this way. That is the only one I am aware 

17 of. 

18 MS. FOX: Okay, thank you. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

20 Harvey Sachs. 

21 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs 

22 and I certainly support Frank's suggestion of 
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1 looking at the PNNL models. To me, the 

2 critical question is the granularity of those 

3 models in terms of how space heat is done, 

4 particularly in larger buildings, where you 

5 quite often see it being allocated 

6 exclusively to perimeter zones, rather than 

7 core zones, which generate excess heat. And 

8 it is really going to be important to be sure 

9 that these are granular enough since that 

10 perimeter heat may in fact compete with some 

11 of the cooling that is happening 

12 simultaneously in the building. I just don't 

13 know how the models handle it. 

14 On another point still relevant 

15 to 9-1, Martha Hewitt recently retired from 

16 Minnesota Center for Energy Efficiency was 

17 the lead on 155-SP or P or whatever it was -- 

18 SPC at ASHRAE. And I suspect we could find 

19 ways to reach Martha and she knows where 

20 every commercial building boiler energy use 

21 study was done. A lot of that was in the 

22 '70s, the building stock may have changed but 
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1 still, there is some set of data that has 

2 been generated at great expense and may still 

3 be relevant. And we can certainly help you 

4 try to find that. 

5 MS. FOX: Okay, thank you. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

7 Harvey. That is helpful. Thank you. 

8 Additional comments on 9-1 and 9-

9 2? 

10 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley, ABMA. 

11 One of the things that I have a 

12 question about is -- well, there is a couple 

13 actually. But the first one is do any of 

14 these models look at maintenance practices 

15 and the quality of maintenance, you know good 

16 maintenance versus bad maintenance and the 

17 degradation of the total system over time 

18 because of the maintenance practice involved? 

19 You know you can put a very 

20 efficient boiler in the system but if the 

21 system is not designed properly or not 

22 maintained properly, then it is not going to 
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1 perform as initially advertised for very 

2 long. And I wonder if any attempt has been 

3 done to sort of compensate for those sort of 

4 things or whether it is even being 

5 considered. 

6 The other thing that I have seen 

7 over the years is that certainly in the 

8 larger units, if you go into a boiler room, a 

9 heating boiler room, they quite often, let's 

10 for the sake of argument say, there is say 

11 six 300-horse power, which are about 12.5 

12 million input. Six of those in the boiler 

13 room. They are all the same size. And I 

14 think if you tried to match the capacity 

15 required over a heating season, then it is 

16 probably about choice. You probably need 

17 some smaller boilers get the most out of them 

18 from an efficiency point of view in the 

19 shoulders of the heating season and then some 

20 larger boilers for the sort of cold weather. 

21 Has anything been done on DOE's 

22 part to look at that aspect of the total 
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1 heating system? 

2 MS. FOX: Yes, so to answer your 

3 first question, so we do consider maintenance 

4 and repair costs in the life-cycle cost 

5 analysis, which is what I will be discussing 

6 next. 

7 And then for the second question, 

8 yes, so the energy use analysis really looks 

9 into how boilers are actually being used in 

10 the field. So I think the situation you 

11 described is something that we will look 

12 into, considering for this part of the 

13 rulemaking. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

15 Geoff. 

16 Yes, Frank. 

17 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

18 AHRI. 

19 A comment and a question. As far 

20 as Item 9-2, I certainly see what DOE is 

21 interested in but I would venture that -- I 

22 will certainly speak from AHRI's perspective, 
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1 if we are, in fact, able to provide you such 

2 data, it is not going to be any more granular 

3 than condensing versus non-condensing 

4 shipments. There aren't, I don't believe 

5 there are such a wide range of efficiencies 

6 that you can really talk about bins. It is 

7 more of an issue of shipments of non8 condensing products versus condensing 

9 products. And again, I say if because 

10 obviously, we will provide the data that our 

11 members allow us to provide. 

12 Now, the question is on the first 

13 bullet under method you talk about 

14 determining space heating and water heating 

15 over a range of applications. How is -- the 

16 standard we are talking about here is for 

17 space heating boilers. So how is the water 

18 heating consumption being brought into this? 

19 And well, how is it being brought into this 

20 and how are you going to address that -- well 

21 certainly not all space heating boilers are 

22 also doing any portable water heating. 
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1 MS. FOX: Right, yes. So, the 

2 idea here is there are some boilers that are 

3 used for both applications. And so we are 

4 just looking at the energy use that goes into 

5 that. As well we are looking into the energy 

6 use of the boiler, whether or not it is 

7 providing space and/or the water heating. 

8 And like I said, the method is 

9 still under determination. So, we are really 

10 just trying to seek input. Maybe it is a 

11 very small percentage of boilers that perform 

12 this. But what we are really trying to 

13 capture is the field performance of boiler 

14 technology. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip. 

16 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, 

17 HTP. On Item 9-1, HTP would like to 

18 encourage the Department to fund research 

19 into current technologies and current heat 

20 loads and water consumption for various uses. 

21 I think you have heard from a couple of 

22 different people here that we are still 
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1 relying on models that were basically created 

2 in the '70s and '80s. And a lot of things 

3 have changed since then with the building 

4 envelopes. We have ran into this situation a 

5 couple of different times and sooner or later 

6 we really need to update those primary 

7 sources for the information. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Actual 

9 data. 

10 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

12 MR. STEPHENS: On Item -- I think 

13 Frank was alluding to -- 9-4 with the 

14 question about boilers versus water heaters. 

15 MR. STANONIK: I just commented 

16 on the first bullet under method, where it 

17 says determine space heating and water 

18 heating over the range of applications. 

19 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. HTP has 

20 noticed the same thing and encourages the 

21 Department to investigate this. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 
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1 Harvey. 

2 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

3 With respect to Phillip’s comment 

4 on building envelope changes, one of the bits 

5 of data that may be informative and may be 

6 available through sources like McGraw-Hill is 

7 simply the fraction of commercial building 

8 packaged boilers that are going into new 

9 construction versus existing buildings. Yes, 

10 there is more granularity into what envelope 

11 upgrades have gone on in the existing 

12 buildings. And when I think of the 

13 characteristic high rise New York residential 

14 application, I shudder with respect to Geoff 

15 Halley's question about how they are operated 

16 but also, I don't get the sense that -- I get 

17 the sense that we are designing for a larger 

18 market of existing buildings and a much 

19 smaller market of new construction. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

21 thank you. 

22 I think we have covered 9-1 and 
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1 9-2. You want to queue up the additional 

2 items beginning with 9-3? 

3 MS. FOX: Yes. 

4 So, continuing on, Item 9-3, DOE 

5 seeks input on data sources that it can use 

6 to characterize the variability in annual 

7 energy consumption for packaged boilers. 

8 Item 9-4, DOE requests comment on 

9 what other energy use by commercial packaged 

10 boilers should be included that may be 

11 missing in what has been described so far. 

12 Item 9-5, DOE welcomes comments 

13 on whether the rated thermal efficiencies for 

14 all packaged boiler equipment should be 

15 adjusted to reflect return-water conditions. 

16 Item 9-6, DOE seeks input on what 

17 fractions of hot-water commercial packaged 

18 boilers are used for both space heating and 

19 water heating. 

20 Item 9-7, DOE seeks input on the 

21 fraction of packaged boilers used in 

22 residential applications. 
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1 And Item 9-8, DOE seeks comment 

2 on the rebound effect that may be associated 

3 with the more efficient boiler equipment. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey. 

5 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

6 Over the last few years, the 

7 annual hot water forum that our organization 

8 sponsors has had a number of speakers on 

9 multi-family, and to a lesser extent 

10 commercial hot water use. There are some 

11 very active organizations in both California 

12 and New England working hard on this. And 

13 you may get some ideas for people who have 

14 done field studies, not just on the hot water 

15 side, but on the space heating side, from 

16 just looking through the author list from 

17 those meetings, they are posted with most of 

18 the presentations. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

20 Quite a few questions here. Data 

21 sources, energy use in energy use analysis, 

22 fractions of hot water commercial packaged 
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1 boilers used for both space heating and hot 

2 water applications, fraction of residential 

3 and rebound effect. 

4 Frank. 

5 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

6 AHRI. 

7 As far as 9-5, I would suggest 

8 the answer is no, they shouldn't. I am 

9 assuming that is in terms of trying to make 

10 some analysis of what is out there in the 

11 field and I just see that as a significant 

12 complication that cannot come out well 

13 because how would DOE get any reasonable 

14 representation of what return water 

15 temperature conditions actually are in 

16 whatever installations there are out there in 

17 the field. 

18 If there is a concern with that 

19 issue, I would suggest it could be addressed 

20 in the test procedure revisions which, again, 

21 if there is an issue there, there certainly 

22 could be modifications to the parameters of 
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1 the test procedure perhaps to narrow or 

2 redefine the return water temperature 

3 conditions. 

4 But I am reading that to say 

5 okay, we are going to do this engineering 

6 analysis and we are going to somehow assess 

7 what the thermal efficiencies of all these 

8 installed boilers are out there in the field. 

9 And then we are going to try and adjust them 

10 for return-water conditions, which if you 

11 don't really know let's say what the actual 

12 distribution of return-water conditions are, 

13 that is just a guess upon a guess, upon a 

14 guess. I just don't see that that really has 

15 value. 

16 Again, but if we are looking at, 

17 as we go forward, well then that to me is a 

18 test procedure issue, not an energy analysis 

19 issue. 

20 The other question number 9-7 -- 

21 first let me emphasize, my gut reaction to 

22 this framework document that this was an 
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1 incredibly complex analysis. And so I am 

2 looking at places where I guess in my own 

3 mind I am trying to make it a little simpler. 

4 And I think 9-7 is one of those that would 

5 make it simpler. 

6 What difference does it make if 

7 the commercial packaged boiler is use in a 

8 residential application? I would say it 

9 would be a valid assumption it is being used 

10 in a residential application because that is 

11 the size of boiler that was needed. And so 

12 whether it is a residential application or 

13 not it is meeting basically a commercial 

14 load. And so, that being the case, again, if 

15 it has been admittedly not a solid 

16 assumption, but if an assumption is made 

17 there had been some reasonable sizing and 

18 that product was put in there because that is 

19 what was needed, then why do I care whether 

20 it was a residential application or a light 

21 duty commercial or whatever? I just don't 

22 see what uniqueness, what value that adds to 
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1 the analysis. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey. 

3 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

4 Frank, I had flagged the word 

5 residential in 9-7 as well. And it is not 

6 clear to me whether your question deals with 

7 the odd McMansion of 10,000 square feet in 

8 Minneapolis or the much more common multi9 family residential application that would be 

10 perhaps within a 90.1 or it might be campus11 type. 

12 If it is the former, I agree with 

13 Frank that it is at the margin, if it is more 

14 likely to be, it is my guess. If it is the 

15 latter, I wonder if your counterparts at HUD 

16 might have done some analyses in conjunction 

17 with their efforts to spend ARRA money over 

18 the last few years. And that might be worth 

19 calling around to look for, in terms of the 

20 multi-family or 90.1 residential 

21 applications. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank. 
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1 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

2 AHRI. Just a quick add-on. 

3 Yes, as if, as Harvey has 

4 suggested, if you are talking about multi5 family residential applications, then again I 

6 would say the answer is this market large 

7 enough for DOE to take into account? In 

8 terms of space heating boilers, I would say 

9 absolutely. I mean there are many older 

10 multi-family building applications where the 

11 heating system is being provided by a boiler. 

12 Obviously you will probably find them more in 

13 the northeast and maybe even some areas here 

14 in the mid-Atlantic and everything. But 

15 there was certainly a time before air 

16 conditioning became very popular and 

17 certainly in colder climates, that if you had 

18 a multi-family building, your heating system 

19 was a boiler. 

20 Again, if that is what you meant, 

21 I don't think you need to ask the question. 

22 MR. SACHS: It was a boiler with 
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1 a thermostatic control provided by William 

2 Electric. 

3 MR. STANONIK: Yes, right. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: What about 

5 rebound affect? 

6 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, 

7 Lochinvar. 

8 I would say that on commercial 

9 applications, there will be negligible 

10 rebound effect. The users of the equipment, 

11 in most cases, won't even know that they have 

12 high efficiency appliances. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: All they 

14 are doing is looking at the price, cost. 

15 MR. KLEISS: Well the users are 

16 going to be occupants in a building that did 

17 have a direct connection to the purchase of 

18 the equipment. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Right. 

20 MR. KLEISS: All they are going 

21 to care about is, am I comfortable or not. 

22 And they are going to set the thermostat 
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1 accordingly. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

3 Frank. 

4 MR. STANONIK: Yes, Frank 

5 Stanonik, HIR. 

6 Picking up on that, again, let's 

7 say appreciating a little bit what the 

8 existing stock of commercial boiler 

9 installations are. And certainly in more 

10 recent years it has changed but I would say 

11 the prevalent practice used to be that you 

12 put in probably, if anything, a larger boiler 

13 than necessary to make sure that everybody 

14 had the heat they wanted. And so I just 

15 don't see that now I am putting in a more 

16 efficient boiler, assuming that it is 

17 properly sized that there is going to be 

18 somehow some increased demand for more heat. 

19 I think as Jeff said, the people, 

20 the actual, let's say the recipients of the 

21 space heating are not necessarily the ones 

22 controlling the boiler operation. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey 

2 Sachs. 

3 MR. SACHS: I am hearing 

4 consensus in the room, at least, that if 

5 something has to be sacrificed to get the 

6 analysis done quickly and in budget, that the 

7 theology of rebound is one item that might be 

8 left on the side and not included. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You had to 

10 bring theology into it! 

11 MR. SACHS: It is a theological 

12 issue invoked by the economists, not the 

13 engineers. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip. 

15 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, 

16 HTP. 

17 I agree. I do not expect a 

18 rebound effect to happen in the commercial 

19 market. As far as Item 9-7, I think it is 

20 important to note that we are seeing a 

21 growing trend for residential boilers to be 

22 teamed together to provide commercial levels 
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1 of heating. And this is done predominantly 

2 because of rebate issues. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Rebate? 

4 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, R ratings, 

5 larger rebates, manufacturers can do this. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Will the 

7 utilities have a decent enough records for 

8 that to give you some good data on those 

9 rebates? 

10 MR. STEPHENS: I don't know. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Hard to 

12 say. You think so? 

13 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

14 It is conceivable that the 

15 Consortium for Energy Efficiency could 

16 provide some aggregated data from their 

17 programs. And they would be the ones to 

18 contact in Boston. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

20 thank you. 

21 Final comments on 9-3 through 9-

22 8, especially those via the web. 
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1 MR. SACHS: One other comment, if 

2 I might, on the use of residential boilers in 

3 commercial applications. Phillip, I may be 

4 wrong but I have been under the impression 

5 that this has also been driven by a lot of 

6 other things that are relatively low cost 

7 with multiple smaller boilers, the redundancy 

8 capabilities, the staging and a number of 

9 manufacturers. They are certainly providing 

10 their boilers with built-in operation 

11 capabilities as a boiler train. And I don't 

12 think that is included in the commercial 

13 product now but I could be wrong. 

14 So I think it is a complex thing 

15 that is driving that and I am not sure how 

16 DOE should or should not incorporate that in 

17 the analysis. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

19 thank you. Do you have anything else you 

20 want to pursue? 

21 MS. FOX: No. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, I 
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1 think we have covered it. We are moving on. 

2 MS. FOX: Okay, so next we have 

3 the life-cycle cost and payback period 

4 analysis. DOE plans to assess the life-cycle 

5 cost or also I will be referring to it as LCC 

6 and payback period for users of commercial 

7 packaged boilers under the considered 

8 efficiency levels. 

9 The LCC is equal to the user 

10 price plus the sum of the installation cost 

11 and annual operating costs over the analysis 

12 discounted to a base year. 

13 The analysis will model the 

14 uncertainty and variability of inputs, using 

15 a Monte Carlo calculation method and 

16 probability distributions and will be 

17 implemented in a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet, 

18 combined with a Crystal Ball add-in. 

19 And as listed in Item 10-1, DOE 

20 seeks input on its proposed LCC approach to 

21 using probability distributions and Monte 

22 Carlo simulation. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I think 

2 these methods are well-known to several of 

3 you. What do you think? No comments here? 

4 No comments here. 

5 MS. FOX: Okay. So, in addition 

6 to the outputs of the engineering, markups, 

7 and energy use analyses, the LCC uses the 

8 inputs listed here. For the energy prices, 

9 DOE intends to determine gas, oil, and 

10 electricity prices, based on recent tariffs 

11 from a representative sample of utilities and 

12 the EIA's Annual Energy Outlook. 

13 Installation, maintenance and 

14 repair costs, DOE plans to develop using the 

15 most recent form of RSMeans data. 

16 Lifetime, DOE plans to develop 

17 probability distributions to characterize 

18 lifetime and plans to use publicly available 

19 data as well as consult with industry 

20 experts. 

21 And finally for discount rates, 

22 DOE will derive the discount rates for boiler 
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1 users by estimating the capital costs for the 

2 companies that purchase the commercial 

3 packaged boiler equipment. 

4 And so this next slide just maps 

5 all of the inputs to the life-cycle cost 

6 analysis. The top branch includes the 

7 derivation of the total installed costs. And 

8 the bottom branch describes the derivation of 

9 the boiler operating expenses. And together, 

10 DOE is able to determine the LCC and payback 

11 period estimates. 

12 So, beginning with Item 10-2, DOE 

13 requests data to characterize the current mix 

14 of boiler efficiencies on the market. 

15 Item 10-3, DOE seeks input on its 

16 planned approach for estimating future energy 

17 prices. 

18 Item 10-4, DOE seeks input on its 

19 approach to determining maintenance and 

20 repair costs. 

21 And Item 10-5, DOE seeks input on 

22 its proposed approach to determining 
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1 installation costs. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey 

3 Sachs. 

4 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

5 With respect to Item 10-3, future 

6 energy prices and going back a bit, the 

7 discount rates, for those who are not 

8 subjected to these processes as often as some 

9 of us, is DOE planning any significant 

10 deviation from its general methodologies of 

11 using EIA forecasts with some sensitivity 

12 analysis and in terms of discount rates, 

13 using the three percent and seven percent 

14 numbers that OMB has dictated for analogous 

15 proceedings? 

16 MS. FOX: I think at this point 

17 there is not any major change anticipated. I 

18 think it is pretty standard. But again, if 

19 any changes are made, it will be expressed 

20 and there will be room for comment in the 

21 NOPR or at the preliminary analysis stage. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Phillip. 
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1 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, 

2 HTP. 

3 I am very interested to learn how 

4 the Department will develop a Weibull 

5 probability distribution for multiple 

6 manufacturers’ products. 

7 MS. FOX: Yes, so -- 

8 MR. SACHS: That's 10-6. Sorry. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That's 

10 okay. Maybe we just hold off and see. 

11 MS. FOX: Yes. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Items 10-2 

13 through 10-5, additional comments here on 

14 these items in this box? I will just give 

15 you a moment. 

16 Yes, Frank. 

17 MR. STANONIK: I'm not really 

18 sure if this is the place where it fits or 

19 not but it triggered me so I am going to 

20 bring it up anyhow. 

21 You know you talk about 10-4 

22 talks about maintenance repair costs and so 
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1 and so on. There is a -- I honestly don't 

2 know if it has been totally resolved yet or 

3 not but there is a significant EPA rulemaking 

4 to address emissions from boilers that are 

5 either major sources or area sources. 

6 And the last time I looked at 

7 that rulemaking in certain cases if the 

8 boiler fit one of those categories and some 

9 of those I think would be space heating 

10 boilers, there in fact would be the EPA 

11 requirement for I believe it was an annual 

12 tune up to supposedly maintain the emissions 

13 level or whatever. 

14 I guess my question here is, is 

15 the intent in the analysis to factor in let's 

16 say the effect of this EPA rulemaking or it 

17 is kind of like well, it is going to be the 

18 same regardless? 

19 MS. FOX: I believe that that 

20 would be a cost, the boiler user -- I am 

21 guessing that would probably fall under a 

22 maintenance cost for the boiler user. So in 
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1 that case, it would be considered -- we will 

2 look into that further. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Provided 

4 the rule is in place. 

5 MS. FOX: Right. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Right. So 

7 it is not proposed but it is -- 

8 MR. STANONIK: Oh, it has been 

9 finalized. And in my last recollection it is 

10 has been bouncing back and forth in the 

11 courts or whatever and I obviously haven't 

12 remembered where the dust settled. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

14 thank you. 

15 Harvey Sachs. 

16 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

17 One other exogenous factor to the 

18 one Frank mentioned has come up. New York 

19 and a number of the New England states have 

20 announced schedules for requirements of 15 

21 ppm sulfur or less, just like truck diesel 

22 for residential boilers. And I think it is 
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1 important to see if they are on a parallel 

2 track that I just haven't looked at for 

3 requiring that fuel, which is higher cost, so 

4 it will affect the life-cycle cost for 

5 commercial boilers as well. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Is that 

7 for fuel oil only? 

8 MR. SACHS: Yes. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. 

10 MR. SACHS: So like fuel oil, it 

11 is not going to affect the semi-solid sludge 

12 that some people are still able to burn. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

14 Phillip. 

15 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, 

16 HTP. 

17 I think this would probably be 

18 the best place for me to put a plug into the 

19 Department that it would improve efficiency 

20 and safety a lot if there were federal 

21 requirements for annual maintenance of 

22 boilers. That would address a lot of issues. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

2 thank you. Final comments here, those of you 

3 that are with us on the web? 

4 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, 

5 Lochinvar. 

6 Regarding Item 10-4, a couple of 

7 weeks ago Geoff Halley and I were 

8 participating in an ASME CSD-1 meeting and 

9 there was significant discussion related to 

10 the use of digester gas. And it also spun 

11 off into the quality of natural gas that is 

12 provided nationwide and the level of 

13 moisture, the BTU content, the contaminants 

14 that could cause damage and increase 

15 maintenance costs. 

16 And this is more a question to 

17 DOE of is there -- what would be the 

18 appropriate entity within the federal 

19 government to start a discussion about 

20 designing and managing the quality of natural 

21 gas that is fed to boilers to help to control 

22 and reduce maintenance costs. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Alex 

2 Lekov, please. Yes, the microphone. 

3 MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence 

4 Berkeley National Laboratory. 

5 In regards to the last comment, I 

6 wonder what is the heat content of the type 

7 of gas you just mentioned because from a test 

8 procedure point of view, there is some range 

9 which allows a variation of the heat content. 

10 So, if this is too low or too 

11 high, there is such a possibility? 

12 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, 

13 Lochinvar. 

14 There is not a specific 

15 temperature range -- or sorry -- heat 

16 capacity. That is one of the concerns that 

17 we have is what is an allowable range for 

18 what we call natural gas that is applied to 

19 customers. 

20 So it has to go beyond that to 

21 other contaminants such as sulfur and to a 

22 very large extent, the water content and the 
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1 fuel that supplies natural gas. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Chuck 

3 Foster. 

4 MR. FOSTER: Chuck Foster, Edison 

5 Electric Institute. 

6 Speaking for myself, I had a good 

7 bit of experience not so much with digester, 

8 although a little bit, but with landfill gas. 

9 And the heat content of landfill gas is 

10 generally assumed to be about 500 BTUs per 

11 cubic foot, which is about roughly half of 

12 what we think pipeline gas is, 1,029 is what 

13 I usually figure for natural gas. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

15 thank you. Frank. 

16 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

17 AHRI. 

18 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss. 

19 MR. STANONIK: Go ahead, Jeff. 

20 MR. KLEISS: I was going to say 

21 please don't be too thrown off by the fact 

22 that I brought digester gas into this 
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1 conversation. The only reason I brought that 

2 in was because it led to discussion about 

3 natural gas that is provided through the 

4 pipeline to appliance and that there are 

5 cases where digester gas has been mixed into 

6 the natural gas with the limited treatment 

7 that would remove the moisture and other 

8 contaminants that can increase maintenance 

9 costs on appliances. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Got you. 

11 MR. KLEISS: But my focus is 

12 about the natural gas pipelines, the quality 

13 of conventional natural gas to appliances. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

15 Jeff, we got it. Thank you. 

16 MR. KLEISS: Thanks. 

17 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

18 AHRI. 

19 And I think Jeff's last comment 

20 may actually help clarify some things. There 

21 was lots of activity going on maybe ten years 

22 ago about defining pipeline quality natural 
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1 gas. I am not aware of any gas utility in 

2 the U.S. that would be mixing digester gas 

3 with the gas it is delivering to its 

4 customers. So I suspect that what was being 

5 suggested here was possibly some operation 

6 where, in fact, they had their own supply of 

7 natural gas and they were supplementing it 

8 with digester gas or they had made some 

9 arrangements with the local utility to inject 

10 some of this digester gas. 

11 That just to me is not a normal 

12 mode of operation for a natural gas utility. 

13 And there are -- and some of this, by the 

14 way, was done with some coordination with 

15 DOE. DOE has an Office of Gas and Oil or 

16 something like that. Yes, so that there was 

17 some coordination there. 

18 I think the bottom line here is 

19 there may not officially be a definition of 

20 natural gas but I would say I am very 

21 comfortable with the vast majority of natural 

22 gas utilities in the U.S. are well aware of 
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1 what are the generally accepted guidelines 

2 for what would be considered natural gas that 

3 can be put into the pipeline without risk of 

4 affecting the burner tips at the end of it. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

6 Other comments on this series of questions? 

7 Harvey Sachs. 

8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. 

9 Jeff Kleiss as opposed to Geoff Halley, I 

10 guess what I am thinking is that it is just 

11 reinforcing what you said that the pipeline 

12 gas is a matter of concern but as long as the 

13 test procedure deals the BTU content, it is 

14 something that is going to be hard to deal 

15 with in this rulemaking and the use of 

16 alternative fuels would seem to be a warranty 

17 issue for the manufacturer and the customer 

18 as in this unit not certified for use with 

19 anything containing more than X percent 

20 moisture -- any fuel containing more than X 

21 percent moisture or Y percent sulfur or 

22 whatever. Because these things are going to 
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1 be relatively rare in the commercial boiler 

2 field. And I am not sure we want DOE to get 

3 involved. 

4 MR. KLEISS: I think -- I am not 

5 sure I am following exactly what you are 

6 saying or asking. My comment is related to 

7 the Item 10-4 is asking about repair issues, 

8 cost of repairs. I am trying to bring to 

9 light what I have been told is something that 

10 is happening in our gas supply system that 

11 may be increasing the cost of repairs and 

12 maintenance or whatever that is not directly 

13 affected to the efficiency of the appliances 

14 but is something that I am concerned there 

15 might need to be some federal oversight or 

16 control. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

18 thanks, Jeff. 

19 MR. SACHS: Thanks. That helps, 

20 Jeff. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

22 let's proceed. 
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1 MS. FOX: Okay. So, continuing 

2 on for life-cycle cost comment requests, Item 

3 10-6, DOE requests comment on the methodology 

4 used to determine equipment lifetimes. 

5 Item 10-7, DOE seeks input on its 

6 planned approach for estimating discount 

7 rates. 

8 And Item 10-8, DOE requests data 

9 on boiler efficiency distribution and 

10 welcomes comment on the degree of possible 

11 improvement changes over the next five to ten 

12 years as a result of market forces or 

13 industry trends. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's 

15 start with lifetimes. Who can comment on 

16 that? Phillip. 

17 MR. STEPHENS: Thank you. I get 

18 to ask my question now. 

19 Yes, I am interested to learn 

20 more about how the Department plans to 

21 identify the Weibull parameters for 

22 commercial packaged boilers as a product 
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1 class. 

2 MS. FOX: Alex, can you speak to 

3 this? 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Alex 

5 Lekov. 

6 MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence 

7 Berkeley National Laboratory. 

8 Commonly we are utilizing a 

9 number of sources. And from these sources we 

10 have compiled a distribution of variables 

11 based on such data set we will try to develop 

12 a function usually in the shape of Weibull. 

13 That is kind of the general 

14 explanation that I could provide at this 

15 time. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey, go 

17 ahead. 

18 MR. SACHS: Alex, this is Harvey 

19 Sachs, ACEEE. 

20 And I have enormous respect for 

21 the difficulty of what you are trying to do. 

22 Well over a decade ago, I was involved in the 
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1 ASHRAE technical committee that deals with 

2 equipment lifetime. And several things came 

3 out of my experience with that which utterly 

4 shocked me. 

5 One of them is that some of the 

6 data on various products dated back to the 

7 '30s and some of it was somewhat more recent. 

8 But in general, it is a backward looking 

9 process of how long did stuff that has 

10 already died last. And given that for this 

11 product class we have likely had shifts to 

12 less frequent cast iron boilers and more 

13 frequent alternative technologies that are 

14 likely to have a different lifetime, I would 

15 certainly urge you to start by looking at 

16 what vintages were covered in the most recent 

17 ASHRAE update and I suspect that you will 

18 also find that the sample size is maybe one 

19 to ten percent as big as would be needed for 

20 any kind of confidence. The ASHRAE 

21 tables, as heartfelt and well-meaning as they 

22 are, are designed to provide butt cover for 
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1 designers doing life-cycle. They are not 

2 designed to reflect the actual conditions in 

3 the industry. 

4 MR. LEKOV: Thank you, Harvey. 

5 Just to highlight that, Danielle mentioned it 

6 both times, that any data related to the 10-

7 15 years marketing trends lifetime, including 

8 lifetime would be really appreciated. As you 

9 said, this is what is lacking. 

10 The technology has changed and 

11 there is a possibility that some of this, 

12 perhaps, has changed as well. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank. 

14 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

15 AHRI. 

16 I picked up something else in 

17 this conversation here. I think that -- 

18 well, let's say that boilers that were 

19 installed maybe 30 years ago or so or maybe 

20 even 20 years ago, there is certainly some 

21 percentage of those installations where the 

22 boiler probably wasn't changed out, but in 
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1 fact significant innards of the thing were 

2 changed out. You know a new burner may have 

3 been put in, a new burner system controls. I 

4 mean for let's say in the old days, I mean 

5 that would be a common thing that if you had 

6 this fairly large piece of equipment in some 

7 room somewhere in this building. And rather 

8 than replace the whole thing, it was much 

9 more the norm to essentially, if you will, 

10 replace the major components of it. 

11 And so in that sense there is a 

12 certain lifetime of the boiler, if you will. 

13 And I think what Harvey was saying is but if 

14 you look at what the mix of products looks 

15 like today, and especially certainly some of 

16 the smaller size commercial boilers that are 

17 relatively compact, the concept of oh, well, 

18 I am just going to maintain this product for 

19 30 or 40 years simply by changing out 

20 components doesn't have the same application. 

21 And to Alex's concern about the 

22 data, I am not sure where you can find this 
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1 but it seems to me that there should be some 

2 way to get a sense to what extent let's say 

3 major overhaul of existing boiler 

4 installations is still going on where they 

5 basically do put in a new burner or new 

6 burner controls or major components but, in 

7 fact, it is still let's say the same pressure 

8 vessel. I would suspect that that is 

9 happening less frequently but that is just 

10 intuitive. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: What about 

12 10-8? Can you say do boilers correspond to 

13 like vintages where there is kind of a mid14 range of efficiencies that are predictable? 

15 So is that way too systematic? And also can 

16 you speculate on the degree of improvement in 

17 the next five or ten year? 

18 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

19 AHRI. I mean, there is no question that the 

20 distribution of efficiency has changed and is 

21 moving. There are more condensing boilers, 

22 commercial boilers being sold and installed. 
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1 As I mentioned, to the extent that we will be 

2 able to provide you data, that is the type of 

3 data we can provide, if we can show it for 

4 the last whatever five to ten years hopefully 

5 can help answer that question. 

6 But it has been a while, actually 

7 it is more than a while. You could even just 

8 as a barometer, and again by no means 

9 suggesting that that model availability 

10 necessarily relates to shipments. But if you 

11 were to just track let's say going back seven 

12 or eight years how many manufacturers offered 

13 condensing commercial boilers and looked at 

14 it today, you would clearly see that there 

15 has been a significant increase in the number 

16 of models available and the number of 

17 manufacturers that provide those models. 

18 Again, that is a barometer that I 

19 would by no means suggest that tells you what 

20 the distribution is. But that is kind of 

21 where there is smoke there is clearly fire 

22 here. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, any 

2 other comments on that? We haven't -- and no 

3 one has addressed discount rates yet. 

4 Harvey. 

5 MR. SACHS: I did talk about 

6 discount rates. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Did you? 

8 I apologize. 

9 MR. SACHS: Were you asleep like 

10 me? 

11 (Laughter.) 

12 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and it 

13 occurred to me and I could be wrong, that for 

14 the larger boilers, there is a small finite 

15 number of people who provide the vast 

16 majority of the burner assemblies. And if 

17 confidential information could be used from 

18 them, it gives us an index of the ratio of 

19 burner sales to new product shipments that 

20 may get toward a very rough estimate of what 

21 Frank was suggesting. And I have no idea if 

22 there is -- I can think of two. There may be 
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1 enough more that we could do this without 

2 confidentiality issues. But it would 

3 certainly seem to be a train that might be 

4 worth looking at. 

5 MR. FOSTER: The comment about 

6 potentially getting some data on equipment 

7 lifetimes, I know our colleagues over at 

8 BOMA, most of them keep really good 

9 statistics at the commercial buildings. We 

10 might be able to check with Ron Burton or 

11 somebody like that over there at BOMA and see 

12 if they would be able to provide the 

13 estimated lifetimes. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Anything 

15 else you wanted to pursue? 

16 MS. FOX: I'm good. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, we 

18 are moving on. 

19 MS. FOX: Okay, great. So next I 

20 will talk about the shipments analysis, which 

21 is an input to the national impact analysis. 

22 The purpose of the shipments analysis is to 
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1 project commercial packaged boiler shipments 

2 in the base case and standards cases, in 

3 order to calculate the effects of amended 

4 standards on energy savings and the present 

5 value of savings, as well as future 

6 manufacturer cash flows. 

7 Here, DOE plans project shipments 

8 of commercial packaged boilers by accounting 

9 for sales in the two primary market segments: 

10 the replacements market and new construction 

11 market. 

12 The shipments model relies on 

13 multiple data sources, including 

14 manufacturers and industry organizations, 

15 national market reports, and publicly 

16 available sources. 

17 And so I have listed in Item 11-

18 1, DOE welcomes comment about the shipments 

19 projection methodology. 

20 Item 11-2, DOE welcomes input on 

21 the selection of appropriate economic drivers 

22 and sources of data for historical shipment. 
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1 Item 11-3, DOE seeks historical 

2 commercial packaged boilers shipments data, 

3 disaggregated by equipment class and 

4 efficiency level. 

5 And Item 11-4, DOE seeks input on 

6 the potential impact of amended standards on 

7 boiler shipments. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I'm 

9 waiting for comments. So comments here? 

10 Nothing? Nothing here. Okay. 

11 MS. FOX: Okay. So next we have 

12 the national impact analysis or NIA. 

13 The purpose of the NIA is to 

14 assess the aggregate effects of the national 

15 level of potential amended standards for each 

16 equipment class, in terms of national energy 

17 savings and net present value. 

18 Here, DOE plans to apply a boiler 

19 efficiency distribution to the shipments 

20 projects in order to determine energy use in 

21 the base case and various standards cases. 

22 DOE does calculate annual NES, national 
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1 energy savings, by taking the difference in 

2 energy use between the base case and the 

3 standards cases. 

4 And DOE calculates net present 

5 value as the difference between the present 

6 value of operating cost savings and the 

7 present value of total installed costs for 

8 each of the standards cases. 

9 So listed in Item 12-1, DOE seeks 

10 comment on appropriate assumptions to use for 

11 the long-run changes in boiler efficiency 

12 independent of amended standards. 

13 And Item 12-2, DOE requests 

14 comment on whether to pursue a roll-up or a 

15 shift approach for the efficiency 

16 distribution determination. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, 

18 Chuck. 

19 MR. FOSTER: Chuck Foster, EEI. 

20 Typically in these rulemakings, 

21 as part of the net present value, there are 

22 some values given to environmental 
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1 attributes, for instance, a savings of NO 

 x

2 and SO. More recently, those values have 

 x

3 been overtaken by the value of carbon. And 

4 as we all know recently here in Washington, 

5 we have had the controversy -- maybe that is 

6 not the right word but we had a discussion 

7 over a revised carbon value report by joint 

8 agency on the social cost of carbon. 

9 Can you give us a brief outline 

10 as to how DOE intends to value carbon in this 

11 rulemaking? 

12 MS. FOX: Yes, I will discuss 

13 that a little later on in the -- we have an 

14 emissions analysis and monetization of 

15 emissions reduction. 

16 MR. FOSTER: Okay, fair enough. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments 

18 on 12-1 and 12-2? Long range changes in 

19 boiler efficiency independent of the amended 

20 energy conservation standard. 

21 MR. STANONIK: Doug, Frank 

22 Stanonik, AHRI. 
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1 On this 12-1, I think there is a 

2 change in approach to boiler installations 

3 that all have some relevancy here and we were 

4 talking a little about during the break. I 

5 think -- not I think. There are more 

6 companies that are promoting an approach to 

7 installing boiler systems where you use 

8 multiple boilers and one or more of the 

9 boilers may be sized to handle the majority 

10 of the heating load, which is going to be 

11 less than the worst day, less than the 

12 designed degree day. And then you install an 

13 additional boiler that is specifically there 

14 to handle those -- to be fired on the coldest 

15 days of the year when you need that extra 

16 heat. 

17 And in fact in ASHRAE standard 

18 90.1, the 2013 edition, there was actually in 

19 there now some language that talks about 

20 boiler turn down, once you get into system, I 

21 think, over a million. You know, unless I am 

22 confusing things which is maybe, it does 
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1 recognize that you can do that either with 

2 just a boiler operating at a certain 

3 efficiency or a combination of boilers. 

4 But I think the point here is 

5 that this looking at what would things look 

6 like if we don't have amended standards. I 

7 think the analysis is going to have to factor 

8 in that it is just not a question of okay 

9 what will be the efficiencies of products 

10 being installed, but in fact, there may be 

11 some changes in the size of products 

12 installed, which again has from a systems 

13 standpoint, will have some changes relative 

14 to how things may have been in the past. And 

15 I think that is going to have to be worked 

16 into it somehow. 

17 And you know, a basic example, if 

18 let's say there was an application that 

19 needed on the worst, coldest day of the year, 

20 a design temperature that required a 

21 10,000,000 BTU boiler, well again, some of 

22 the approaches being promoted by 
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1 manufacturers say well, wait a minute. For 

2 the less than coldest days I can meet this 

3 load with let's just say a 6,000,000 BTU 

4 boiler and then on those coldest days, my 

5 back up only needs to be this additional 

6 4,000,000 BTU unit. And that is attractive 

7 for a variety of reasons. But again, not 

8 knowing the exact numbers, in some cases, the 

9 more economical choice for whoever is 

10 purchasing those products, too. 

11 So again, the point here is just 

12 not a difference in what does the mix of 

13 efficiencies look like. It may actually be a 

14 mix of what the size of the boilers are, in 

15 addition to efficiency. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

17 thank you. Jim? 

18 MR. SCHNORR: This is Jim Schnorr 

19 with Burnham Holdings. 

20 I would further comment that we 

21 would also most likely see different types of 

22 boilers, not only different sizes, but we 
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1 would see a mix of hybrid systems of 

2 condensing and non-condensing technologies. 

3 Further expanding on the comments 

4 of my colleague here, we feel this is a 

5 growing application and that system 

6 efficiency should definitely be further 

7 looked into. It is not only the efficiency 

8 of these appliances but it is how they are 

9 applied. 

10 And although it hasn't been 

11 talked here, putting highly efficient boilers 

12 and systems that cannot run at lower 

13 temperatures, their efficiencies are very 

14 similar to non-condensing technologies. And 

15 we would encourage the DOE to look at overall 

16 system efficiencies as well. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

18 thank you. 

19 Harvey Sachs. 

20 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

21 Supporting Mr. Schnorr's comment, 

22 I will submit to the record an article by Tom 
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1 Durkin published in the ASHRAE Journal on 

2 looking at some of these impacts of actually 

3 modifying the balance of the system on the 

4 distribution side to accommodate condensing 

5 boilers and getting very large savings in 

6 schools as a result of the changes. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Final 

8 comments here? Okay. 

9 MS. FOX: Okay, so next we will 

10 present the components of the NOPR stage of 

11 the analysis. 

12 Okay, so the NOPR starts with a 

13 revision of the preliminary analysis. And 

14 then additionally, DOE assesses a number of 

15 other impacts as listed here. We will start 

16 with the life-cycle cost subgroup analysis. 

17 So, for the LCC consumer subgroup 

18 analysis, the purpose here is to analyze the 

19 economic impacts of amended standards on 

20 subgroups of boiler end-users who are likely 

21 to be disproportionately impacted, compared 

22 with the general population. 
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1 Here, DOE plans to utilize the 

2 LCC spreadsheet model to analyze the LCC for 

3 those subgroups by sampling inputs specific 

4 to that subgroup. 

5 And as requested at Item 13-1, 

6 DOE requests input on what consumer subgroups 

7 are appropriate to evaluate for commercial 

8 packaged boilers. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank. 

10 MR. STANONIK: This one has got me 

11 a little confused. I mean clearly when we 

12 are talking about residential products you 

13 have some identifiable subgroups, whether it 

14 is low income individuals or elderly people 

15 or whatever. And there is many rulemakings 

16 where those folks get looked at separately or 

17 their needs get looked at separately. 

18 But when I start thinking about 

19 commercial packaged boilers, which admittedly 

20 could be 305,000 BTUs but could also be, at 

21 least at the moment unless something changes, 

22 30,000,000 BTUs, all of a sudden I just don't 
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1 think of a consumer subgroup because I just 

2 can't get my head around that kind of an idea 

3 of what would be a subgroup that would have 

4 somehow some different use or application of 

5 a 20,000,000 or 30,000,000 BTU boiler. I 

6 mean I just don't think it is there. 

7 What I guess I am trying is I 

8 think you just write this one off because I 

9 don't know what you do with it. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Chuck? 

11 MR. FOSTER: Yes, and I don't 

12 know either and so take this for what it is 

13 worth. But when I read it, I thought well 

14 maybe they were going try to define 

15 commercial building users and then industrial 

16 users and see if there was some perceived 

17 difference in utility or value to them. 

18 But I agree pretty much with what 

19 Frank said, that we don't have senior 

20 citizens who are going to be 

21 disproportionately impacted here. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 
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1 MS. FOX: Okay, so next, Michael 

2 will present the manufacturer -- 

3 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss. 

4 MS. FOX: Oh. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, 

6 proceed. 

7 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, 

8 Lochinivar, commenting on it. 

9 There are basically the regular 

10 commercial heating applications and then once 

11 you step outside of that, there are tons of 

12 different industrial applications, whether it 

13 is the 80 and fermentation of wine to lock 

14 down for train cars, the type of applications 

15 are so wide and varied that I don't know how 

16 you could get a test market. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

18 MS. FOX: Okay, so now on to 

19 Michael. 

20 MR. DROESCH: So DOE conducts the 

21 manufacturer impact analysis or MIA to 

22 identify the impact of energy conservation 
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1 standards on manufacturers both qualitatively 

2 and quantitatively. 

3 The team beings by developing an 

4 industry cash flow model, called the 

5 Government Regulatory Impact Model or GRIM 

6 that takes into account any investment in 

7 revenue changes that the industry might 

8 experience, as a result of more stringent 

9 standards. 

10 Then DOE will interview 

11 manufacturers to refine the GRIM and conduct 

12 a qualitative analysis of any additional 

13 impacts on manufacturers. 

14 DOE welcomes comments on the 

15 items listed here with respect to the 

16 manufacturer impact analysis. In particular, 

17 in Item 14-1, DOE requests feedback on 

18 whether there are any manufacturer subgroups 

19 that need to be considered. And in Item 14-

20 3, DOE also welcomes comments on any 

21 cumulative regulatory issues that it should 

22 consider. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments 

2 here? Okay. 

3 MR. DROESCH: All right, I will 

4 hand it back to Danielle to discuss the 

5 emissions analysis. 

6 MR. STANONIK: Doug, I'm sorry. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Frank 

8 Stanonik. 

9 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

10 AHRI. 

11 Just one comment on 14-3. 

12 Perhaps I am stating the obvious, but I think 

13 as I mentioned earlier, the fact that there 

14 will be a parallel test procedure revision 

15 ongoing with this, although recognizing the 

16 effective dates may be different, it is 

17 certainly going to contribute some regulatory 

18 burden and the fact that there is ongoing a 

19 very active process to try and, I will say 

20 finalize, or negotiate requirements for the 

21 certification and enforcement and potentially 

22 verification of efficiencies of commercial 
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1 boilers. 

2 Once that it is all done, there 

3 will clearly be a regulatory burden that 

4 needs to be factored into this whole process. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

6 thank you. Yes, Phillip. 

7 MR. STEPHENS: From HTP's 

8 perspective, every product we make is up for 

9 review or update of minimum efficiencies or 

10 method of test within the next few years. 

11 This rotation that we are currently on is a 

12 tremendous burden to manufacturers. The fact 

13 that many manufacturers who make water 

14 heaters also make boilers. Any manufacturers 

15 that make water heaters also make furnaces. 

16 It is a tremendous burden to the 

17 manufacturers. If we could change this 

18 rotation schedule somewhat, it would be 

19 greatly appreciated. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

21 thank you. 

22 MS. FOX: Okay. So, for the 
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1 emissions analysis, DOE characterizes the 

2 environmental impacts of amended standards. 

3 In estimating the physical 

4 reductions of emissions, DOE intends to use 

5 the emissions effects projected a version of 

6 the National Energy Modeling System, NEMS-BT. 

7 DOE plans to consider, to the 

8 extent feasible, reduction in power sector 

9 emissions of carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxides, 

10 sulfur dioxide, mercury, methane, nitrous 

11 oxide, and particulate matter. 

12 DOE plans to also consider 

13 emissions impacts in fuel production 

14 activities, such as extracting, processing, 

15 and transporting of fuels for the fuels used 

16 in power plants. 

17 And DOE plans to account for the 

18 emissions from boiler combustion at the 

19 building site. 

20 And as listed in Item 15-1, DOE 

21 seeks input about its approach for conducting 

22 the emissions analysis. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey 

2 Sachs. 

3 MR. SACHS: Danielle, I assume 

4 that the two middle bullets dealing with 

5 power sector emissions will only get any 

6 attention if electric boilers are included. 

7 I'm just wondering if you are planning to 

8 look at power plant emissions and stuff for 

9 gas and oil boilers in this analysis. 

10 MS. FOX: I believe that is the 

11 case. I will have to check back and make 

12 sure that everything -- I think everything is 

13 -- we tried to cover everything in this type 

14 of emissions analysis. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Alex Lekov. 

16 MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence 

17 Berkeley National Laboratory. 

18 So, Harvey is correct. We are 

19 talking here mostly about gas and oil 

20 boilers. However, those boilers use also 

21 electricity. They have components that just 

22 electricity. So, this aspect will be 
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1 considered in terms of emissions. 

2 There is also the much smaller 

3 impact, the emissions associated with 

4 manufacturing of the natural gas. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey. 

6 MR. SACHS: I appreciate the need 

7 to check things off the list but given the -- 

8 my guess is about the numbers of commercial 

9 boilers shift every year. The fraction of 

10 their source energy use attributable to their 

11 electrical consumption and the impact on 

12 national power plant emissions, if commercial 

13 boilers used no electricity, it is not clear 

14 to me how much effort that part of the 

15 analysis should take in what Chuck called an 

16 era of constrained resources. It may well be 

17 that I am underestimating by a factor of ten 

18 or a hundred the emissions impact of gas and 

19 oil commercial boilers. But I just am asking 

20 that we look at the magnitude before we get 

21 into the details of the analysis. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Chuck 
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1 Foster. 

2 MR. FOSTER: Chuck Foster, EEI. 

3 And I would concur with Harvey's comment 

4 there. 

5 In addition, I would concur with 

6 Harvey's comments and, in the event that the 

7 Department decides to use to address electric 

8 boilers, which I have recommended against, 

9 then I think these two bullets would be 

10 appropriate. 

11 But in the absence of that, I 

12 believe that the electricity consumption will 

13 be beyond noise in the analysis and resources 

14 would be expended that could be put someplace 

15 else more productively. 

16 I do note that as between the 

17 last two bullets, there seems to be a lack of 

18 symmetry that if gas is taken, it looks like 

19 if gas is taken to a power plant, we are 

20 going to look upstream for emissions. But if 

21 that same gas instead goes to a boiler on22 site, we are not going to look upstream for 
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1 emissions. 

2 I'm not sure if that is actually 

3 what the Department means or if there was a 

4 conscious effort to have a different approach 

5 for the use of the same gas. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

7 thank you. 

8 Additional comments here? 

9 Phillip. 

10 MR. STEPHENS: You saw it in my 

11 face. 

12 Could we get some more background 

13 on particulate matter with gaseous fuels? Is 

14 there something I am missing? 

15 MS. FOX: I don't know. I don't 

16 know that -- Alex do you have anything to 

17 come on that? I'm not sure. 

18 MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence 

19 Berkeley National Laboratory. 

20 My only comment is that the 

21 particulate matters are one emission types 

22 that are always DOE has mandated to look at 
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1 those. So they are on the list. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Jim. 

3 MR. SCHNORR: Hi, Jim Schnorr with 

4 Burnham Holdings. If you could further 

5 clarify which of the particulate matter would 

6 have, in your opinion, ranking higher 

7 importance of those matters that are listed 

8 here. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Alex, 

10 anybody can correct me. But I am thinking 

11 that this is the Department's statutory 

12 mandate and so they need to consider it, even 

13 if it is going to be small and minuscule, 

14 whatever. So that is about why that is 

15 there, I am guessing. 

16 MR. SCHNORR: Jim. So for the 

17 record, one of the particulate matters 

18 doesn't have greater importance over another. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Oh, I 

20 don't know about that. 

21 MR. SCHNORR: Can anybody further 

22 clarify regarding particulate matter and 
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1 which one may have more importance? 

2 MR. SACHS: We are interested in 

3 point one. 

4 MR. SCHNORR: Thank you. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

6 thank you, Jim. 

7 Okay, we are moving on. 

8 MS. FOX: Okay, so DOE is also 

9 mandated to report the monetary benefits of 

10 the emissions reductions of CO and NO from 

 2 x

11 the amended standards. 

12 In estimating the monetary value 

13 of reduced emissions, DOE intends to use the 

14 most current social cost of carbon values, as 

15 developed by interagency reviews. 

16 DOE plans to multiply the CO 

 2

17 emission reductions by the social cost of 

18 carbon value and then discount the value to 

19 calculate its present value. 

20 DOE also plans to estimate the 

21 potential monetary benefit of reduced NO 

 x

22 emissions based on environmental impact 
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1 estimates found in the relevant scientific 

2 literature. These values are discounted to 

3 obtain a present value of three percent and 

4 seven percent, as in accordance with the OMB 

5 guidance. 

6 And although it may not be 

7 possible to do so at this time, DOE plans to 

8 investigate valuation methods for avoided 

9 SO, mercury, methane, nitrous oxide, and 

 2

10 particulate matter emissions. 

11 And so as listed in Item 16-1, 

12 DOE requests comment on its approach for 

13 estimating monetary benefits of the 

14 associated emissions reductions. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey 

16 Sachs. 

17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs 

18 at ACEEE. 

19 And I am having a great deal of 

20 trouble with your second bullet of 

21 discounting CO emissions reduction values to 

 2

22 get a net present value. The lifetime of CO 

 2

 2
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1 in the atmosphere is vastly longer than my 

2 life expectancy at birth, much less today. 

3 And I find myself befuddled how anyone would 

4 think that such a long-lived pollutant, and I 

5 use that term guardedly, could possibly be 

6 discounted when the carbon dioxide emitted 

7 today will still be in the atmosphere in a 

8 100 years, except that part of which is gone 

9 into acidifying the ocean. It is quite 

10 different from NO and SO. 

 x x

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

12 thank you. 

13 Other comments on the 

14 Department's approach of estimating the 

15 monetary benefits? 

16 Yes, Phillip. 

17 MR. STEPHENS: Is there an 

18 estimated time frame when you conduct this 

19 analysis or is it unlimited into the future? 

20 MS. FOX: Oh, you are asking about 

21 the range, like the range of a time period 

22 for the emissions analysis? 
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1 I know -- 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Alex, do 

3 you -- 

4 MS. FOX: I think so the 

5 emissions analysis considers the boilers in, 

6 usually it is the typical 30-year period that 

7 we look at during the analysis. So it would 

8 be the emissions reductions from the 

9 equipment shipped in that period. Is that 

10 what you are asking? 

11 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional 

13 comments? Okay. 

14 MS. FOX: Okay, so next is the 

15 utility impact analysis. The purpose of the 

16 utility impact analysis is to assess the 

17 overall effects on domestic energy supplies 

18 that would result from the adoption of 

19 amended energy standards. Here, DOE proposes 

20 to use the Energy Information Agency's NEMS21 BT model as the basis of the utility impact 

22 analysis. 
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1 DOE plans to model the energy 

2 savings impacts from amended standards using 

3 NEMS-BT to generate projections for the AEO 

4 Reference Case and additional cases. 

5 And the outputs of the utility 

6 impact analysis include projections of 

7 electricity generation and avoided capacity 

8 resulting from a comparison of the base case 

9 and standards cases. 

10 And as listed in Item 17-1, DOE 

11 welcomes input on its proposed approach to 

12 conducting the utility impact analysis. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments 

14 here? 

15 MS. FOX: Okay, the next is the 

16 employment impact analysis. The purpose of 

17 the employment impact analysis is to assess 

18 the overall effects on national employment 

19 from the adoption of amended standards at 

20 various levels. This includes both direct 

21 and indirect employment impacts. 

22 The direct employment impacts are 
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1 estimated in the manufacturer impact 

2 analysis, whereas the indirect employment 

3 analysis here estimates the impacts on the 

4 national economy that result from shifting 

5 user expenditures among goods and services 

6 and changes in income and overall expenditure 

7 levels. 

8 Here, DOE plans to use the Impact 

9 of Sector Energy Technologies model of the 

10 evaluation of the indirect employment 

11 impacts. 

12 And listed in Item 18-1, DOE 

13 welcomes feedback on its proposed approach to 

14 assessing the national employment impacts. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank. 

16 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

17 AHRI. 

18 Just a quick comment. This issue 

19 of shifting employment from let's say new 

20 products to services which I would consider 

21 let's say maintenance or repair or whatever, 

22 I think in the case of commercial boilers, it 
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1 is more important than perhaps for some other 

2 products that DOE does keep in mind that this 

3 industry already has a kind of a historical 

4 track record that once that boiler, that 

5 pressure vessel and everything else is in 

6 sight, it has been common to basically make 

7 whatever changes and other things you have to 

8 do to keep that particular piece of equipment 

9 running. 

10 And so, I think that because of 

11 that, there should be a little more 

12 sensitivity to picking levels that let's say 

13 if anything may encourage people to put in a 

14 new more efficient boiler rather than just 

15 trying to keep that old one running or 

16 whatever. 

17 And again, for the commercial 

18 boiler business, that has been I think more 

19 of a common practice. There just needs to be 

20 more sensitivity to that when DOE looks at 

21 this issue. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 
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1 Harvey Sachs. 

2 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. 

3 I certainly agree with the goals 

4 of the employment impact analysis. But in 

5 this particular market, which has relatively 

6 few employees, considering the size of the 

7 national economy which has a number of 

8 additional impacts, such as imports and 

9 exports, particularly in the smaller 

10 capacities, and which has some natural 

11 tendencies to invest in productivity 

12 improvements, the natural course of the 

13 industry would seem to be toward declining 

14 employment at constant output. 

15 And I am not sure how you take 

16 account in sensitivities of all of these 

17 factors as they affect a relatively small 

18 industry. It is an important one. But in 

19 terms of national employment totals, it 

20 sounds -- it intuitively seems to me that 

21 the uncertainties are at least as large as 

22 the impacts. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional 

2 comments? 

3 MS. FOX: Okay, so the last 

4 section of our NOPR analysis is the 

5 regulatory impact analysis, which 

6 investigates the national effects of non7 regulatory alternatives compared with the 

8 mandatory energy conservation standards. 

9 Here, DOE plans to use a modified 

10 NES spreadsheet model to consider the non11 regulatory scenarios. DOE plans to estimate 

12 the effects of non-regulatory scenarios based 

13 on experience with considered policies. 

14 And output will include NES and 

15 NPV of the non-regulatory alternatives. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments 

17 on regulatory impact analysis? Okay. 

18 So then, as we promised first 

19 thing this morning, now is another 

20 opportunity for anyone to make additional 

21 comments, raise issues that haven't been 

22 fully discussed so far in this meeting. And 
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1 let's hear from anyone now. 

2 Frank Stanonik. 

3 MR. STANONIK: Since I missed 

4 that discussion, I just wanted to briefly 

5 mention some things about the test procedure 

6 issues. And in particular, the BTS-2000, 

7 which at the moment is the AHRI standard that 

8 is at least the basis for the federal test 

9 procedure. 

10 We certainly are aware of the 

11 waivers that have been submitted and the 

12 issues that have been raised. And AHRI will 

13 be looking at those issues in determining 

14 whether revisions need to be made to BTS-2000 

15 to address some of those. It is certainly 

16 our intent that, as DOE goes forward with the 

17 rulemaking on revising the test procedures, 

18 it would be our intent to try and provide an 

19 updated document that DOE could continue to 

20 at least reference as a base document. And 

21 as we are doing that work, just make everyone 

22 aware, recognizing what our objective is, we 
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1 certainly intend to and be, I will say more 

2 aggressive perhaps, or not aggressive but 

3 more aware that we will be inviting other 

4 interested parties, including DOE 

5 representatives to be involved in our 

6 activity to update BTS-2000. 

7 And then the other point I just 

8 want to make because it is important, we also 

9 are aware that in fact AHRI has an agreement 

10 with ASHRAE to develop Standard 155, which 

11 would ultimately replace BTS-2000. That is 

12 the standard test in rating commercial 

13 boilers. 

14 But under the current schedule 

15 and the situation as we see it, we don't 

16 really see that 155 could be done in time for 

17 DOE's schedule. So at least at the moment, 

18 our plan is to work on revising BTS-2000 to 

19 fit DOE's schedule, while at the same time 

20 recognizing that our ultimate goal is that in 

21 fact ASHRAE Standard 155 at some point, when 

22 it is finalized and completed, would replace 
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1 the BTS, let's say. Let's call it that. 

2 But I just wanted to take this 

3 opportunity to make everyone aware of where 

4 we are with this as far as AHRI and what we 

5 are planning to do. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

7 thank you. Harvey. 

8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs, 

9 ACEEE. 

10 And a couple of process notes. 

11 One of them is to recognize and thank DOE 

12 that the format and processes have changed an 

13 awful lot in terms of these meetings, have 

14 changed an awful in the last few years. And 

15 I think DOE ought to get some recognition 

16 credit for that. It is a lot less user17 hostile than it used to be. 

18 Along those lines, one small 

19 further improvement might be to flag those 

20 items on this long checklist and template 

21 which are mandatory and which are at DOE's 

22 initiative, ones which are prescribed by 
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1 statute versus the ones which DOE can choose 

2 to examine or not. 

3 And the second point I want to 

4 make in closing is to appreciate that AHRI is 

5 trying to work on BTS-2000. I have had some 

6 offline discussions with Frank. But in terms 

7 of the public inners and DOE'S inners, it is 

8 important to note that the AHRI standards are 

9 not, at this time, ANSI compliant. They are 

10 not consensus standards. They do not include 

11 necessarily representatives of users and 

12 advocates, as opposed to the ASHRAE 

13 standards. 

14 We will do our best to work with 

15 AHRI as we have in the past but we are very 

16 concerned that if we move forward with a 

17 standard that does not have some indication 

18 of what I earlier called part-load efficiency 

19 for those units that have modulating two20 stage firing capability. We think that is 

21 absolutely required as a component of this 

22 rulemaking. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

2 thank you. 

3 Frank. 

4 MR. STANONIK: And again, while I 

5 apologize for not being here right at nine, I 

6 have a question. And if it was addressed 

7 earlier, then I can get the answer, I guess. 

8 But certainly one of the 

9 challenges that face us all right now in 

10 terms of this test procedure question is that 

11 there is no upper limit on what is covered. 

12 And so first I will ask, was that discussed 

13 this morning as to whether any thought was 

14 being given to establishing, let's call it, 

15 an upper limit of the scope? That is the 

16 first question. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Adam 

18 Darlington. 

19 MR. DARLINGTON: Yes, Frank, 

20 somebody did ask a question about that 

21 earlier. Basically recognizing it has come 

22 to light that there are some concerns about 
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1 the ability of the test procedure to even be 

2 used for some of these larger boilers. So we 

3 were basically asking just an open question 

4 about where is that limit. What can be tested 

5 on the test procedure? What might DOE need 

6 to look at you know possibly a different test 

7 method altogether for, if it doesn't work, if 

8 it can't be tested if it is too large. 

9 So yes, if you have thoughts on 

10 that now. 

11 MR. STANONIK: Well, so at the 

12 moment it is an open question. Actually no, 

13 I don't. 

14 Well, no I don't have any 

15 specific thoughts. I was actually going to 

16 ask that if the DOE had some, let's say, some 

17 preliminary thoughts as we are working on 

18 BTS-2000, it would be useful to have that 

19 information. But I guess at this point, we 

20 will take our own and other interested 

21 parties' advice as to whether we might work 

22 into the amended version of BTS-2000 limited 
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1 scope of coverage or whatever. We will look 

2 at that. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey. 

4 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs, 

5 ACEEE. 

6 In the painful process of the 

7 ASRAC negotiations over the summer, I 

8 certainly learned a great deal. And it seems 

9 to me that there is a size above which 

10 everything is a custom product. And at that 

11 point, the complimentary assumption is that 

12 almost all of this stuff is going to fairly 

13 sophisticated purchasers. 

14 So, my working hypothesis is that 

15 there is an upper limit beyond which we get 

16 national energy savings that are appropriate, 

17 without necessarily having to do that in a 

18 regulatory framework and that the cost of the 

19 regulatory framework above some capacity may 

20 be higher than the benefits. 

21 So, I would certainly urge 

22 analysts for DOE to review the extensive 
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1 discussions on possibly appropriate capacity 

2 limits that occurred during the ASRAC 

3 process. As I say, I learned a great deal 

4 from that and certainly think that we, as 

5 advocates, can support conceptually the idea 

6 that there are upper limits and even that 

7 there may be break points lower than that at 

8 which the test method changes, as it does 

9 today with combustion versus thermal 

10 efficiency. I don't like that but let's see 

11 what is common sense. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

13 thank you. 

14 Additional final comments here? 

15 Okay, then for my part I will thank you all. 

16 This was a very productive meeting and I 

17 really appreciate you all being here today. 

18 I would also note for the record 

19 that the Department of Energy intends to hold 

20 the public meeting on Thursday, October 

21 third, so far as I had last heard. That is 

22 what I had heard. So for anybody listening 
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1 online that is planning on attending that, 

2 that is the last we have heard there. 

3 So, I will just turn it then back 

4 to Jim Raba for closing remarks. And my 

5 personal thanks to all of you. 

6 MR. RABA: We conclude today's 

7 public meeting with a great appreciation from 

8 the U.S. Department of Energy for you 

9 efficient participation in person and via 

10 webinar. And thank you for you a very 

11 productive meeting. 

12 We thank our presenters, Danielle 

13 Fox, Michael Droesch, and backed up with Alex 

14 Lekov and Adam Darlington and Facilitator 

15 Doug Brookman, of course. And our technical 

16 crew back stage, thank you very much, that 

17 made this possible. 

18 So now we look forward to 

19 receiving your written comments. And have 

20 safe travels. 

21 (Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., the 

22 foregoing matter was adjourned.) 
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A

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announcement

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3-3 34:10

3-4 40:19 41:1,8

30 21:10 127:19

128:19

30s 126:7

30,000,000 142:22

143:5

30-year 157:6

300,000 7:1 28:22

300-horse 91:11

305,000 142:20

4

4,000,000 78:22

139:6

40 39:21 128:19

42 3:10

431 15:10 19:13

5

5 3:2,4 43:21 47:8

50:7

5,000,000 29:2,6

78:22

5-2 44:2

5-3 44:7 46:13

5-4 48:15 53:4 54:9

60:1

5.0 29:1

50s 30:20

500 119:10

500,000 80:14

57 3:12

6

6 47:18 50:7

6,000,000 139:3

6-1 53:4 61:11

60 45:1

62301 32:4,12

6313(a)6) 16:20

7

7 48:2 50:8

7-2 63:3,14

7-4 63:5 72:6,16

70s 89:22 95:2

73 3:14

8

8 3:6 7:8 107:22

8E-089 1:12

8,000,000 80:17

8-1 76:9

8-2 76:13

8-3 76:16

8-4 76:21

80 144:13

80s 95:2

9

9 90:8 107:21

9-1 85:18 89:15

90:8 94:17 96:22

9-2 85:22 92:20

97:1

9-3 97:2,4 107:21

9-4 95:13 97:8

9-5 97:12 99:7

9-6 97:16

9-7 97:20 100:20

101:4 102:5

106:19

9-8 98:1

9:00 1:13

9:02 5:2

90 45:2 56:5

90.1 17:1 87:7

88:13 102:10,20

137:18

99 66:16 67:2
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

195

Energy Efficiency Standards

for Commercial Packaged Boilers

US DOE

10-01-13

Washington, DC