### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1**  **UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE** 

**+ + + + +**

**DISCUSSION OF HIGH EFFICIENCY MOTOR TREATMENT IN COMMERCIAL HVAC EQUIPMENT**  **+ + + + + WEDNESDAY**  **AUGUST 14, 2013**

**+ + + + +**

**The Committee met in Conference Room 6075, 950 L'Enfant Plaza, at 2:00 p.m., Neil** 

**Eisner, Facilitator.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2**  **PRESENT NEIL EISNER, Facilitator**  **LAURA BARHYDT, DOE General Counsel ALEX BOSENBERG, NEMA**  **JOHN CYMBALSKY, DOE JEREMIAH FREEMAN, New West Technologies**  **EMILY MARCHETTI, Energetics MIKE RIVEST, Navigant Consulting**  **PRESENT VIA WEBINAR KARIM AMRANE, AHRI**  **TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice LAURA DEGITZ, Navigant Consulting**  **DAN DELANEY, Regal PAUL DOPPEL, Mitsubishi**  **SCOTT DURFEE, Nidec Motor Corporation SKIP ERNST, Daikin McQuay**  **MARK FLY, AAON GEOFFREY HALLEY, ABMA**  **TRAVIS HARDIN, UL RANDY HASEMAN, UL**  **JILL HOOTMAN, Trane JOHN HURST, Lennox International**  **DIANE JAKOBS, Rheem TOM JOHNSON, Daikin McQuay**  **JEFF KLEISS, Lochinvar MICHAEL KOJAK, UL**  **JONATHAN LEMMOND, AHRI PAUL LIN, Regal Beloit**  **ARIS MARANTAN, Navigant Consulting JOHN McLAUGHLIN, Daikin McQuay**  **KAREN MEYERS, Rheem FRANK MYERS, PVI Industries**  **STEVE PICKLE, Johnson Controls RANDY RODRIGUES, WEG**  **NEIL ROLPH, Lochinvar PHILLIP STEPHENS, HTP**  **JOHN SUTPHEN, Cleaver-Brooks RUSTY THARP, Goodman Manufacturing**  **TOM WALSH, Daikin McQuay**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  

### 2 **2:14 P.M.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: This is Laura** 

### 4 **Barhydt. This is the Commercial HVAC Water** 

### 5 **Heating and Refrigeration Certification Working** 

### 6 **Group small group meeting. We're here to** 

### 7 **discuss the use of electric motors in commercial** 

### 8 **HVAC equipment. In particular, we're going to** 

### 9 **be talking about the substitution of different** 

### 10 **motors within a basic model to address different** 

### 11 **required static pressures for specific** 

### 12 **applications.** 

### 13 **Perhaps, Mike, you could walk us** 

### 14 **through DOE's original proposal and some of the** 

### 15 **issues that have come up since then.** 

### 16 **MR. RIVEST: Okay, this is Mike** 

### 17 **Rivest. I don't know if there's a need to go** 

### 18 **through the original proposal in detail, but** 

### 19 **in principal what we were trying to do is to** 

### 20 **make sure that the motor that was being used** 

### 21 **to certify a grouping of different products,** 

### 22 **that the motor being used was representative**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4**  **1 of the motors being used in all the other**  

### 2 **products. And one way that we proposed we might** 

### 3 **be able to do that would be to compare the** 

### 4 **efficiency of the motor being used in what's** 

### 5 **called the certified model with a national** 

### 6 **standard applicable to that class of motor and** 

### 7 **create from there, if you will, a revised** 

### 8 **efficiency level. And that efficiency level** 

### 9 **would then be translated to larger motors using** 

### 10 **the terms same percentage reduction in losses** 

### 11 **from a standard or same increase in losses** 

### 12 **compared to a standard.** 

### 13 **And a number of equations were shown** 

### 14 **and some examples about how to calculate that.** 

### 15 **16 We also distributed a spreadsheet**  

### 17 **that would make it quite simple to have a look-up** 

### 18 **table that said well if the motor in my certified** 

### 19 **model is 93.1, and it's 2 horsepower and if I** 

### 20 **use a 5 horsepower in a different model, then** 

### 21 **the efficiency for that motor should be 96.2.** 

### 22 **It was meant to be very simple that way.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5**  **1 What came up at the last meeting is**  

### 2 **that some of the motors that are being used** 

### 3 **currently actually have no applicable test** 

### 4 **procedure, so they don't have an efficiency** 

### 5 **rating. And it would make application of this** 

### 6 **rule, if you will, very difficult, if not** 

### 7 **impossible.** 

### 8 **So I was hoping today is to maybe** 

### 9 **have some motor experts describe the types of** 

### 10 **motors that couldn't be -- where we couldn't** 

### 11 **use this type of algorithm, the reasons why we** 

### 12 **couldn't do it, what is it about the test** 

### 13 **procedure that makes it difficult to evaluate,** 

### 14 **could we be changing the test procedure, those** 

### 15 **types of things. And hopefully, once we've** 

### 16 **understood why we can't do it this way, maybe** 

### 17 **we can come up with an alternate way of** 

### 18 **addressing these types of motors, keeping in** 

### 19 **mind that what we're trying to do is just ensure** 

### 20 **that the motor being used in products that are** 

### 21 **directly certified are not less efficient than** 

### 22 **the ones being tested.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1 I have a few ideas myself, but we**  

### 2 **can go there later. Is there anyone from NEMA** 

### 3 **or AHRI who is going to present a little bit** 

### 4 **what the issues are on your side?** 

### 5 **MR. LIN: Well, I think maybe the** 

### 6 **first question for the motor guys is to try to** 

### 7 **translate exactly the product scope that we're** 

### 8 **talking about so that we can categorize the** 

### 9 **motors that would fit within the category of** 

### 10 **the HVAC equipment.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: So whoever just spoke** 

### 12 **if you could identify yourself and if everybody** 

### 13 **could make sure you state your name before** 

### 14 **speaking so that our reporter can actually** 

### 15 **create the transcript for us of exactly who is** 

### 16 **saying what.** 

### 17 **MR. LIN: I'm sorry. This is Paul** 

### 18 **Lin with Regal Beloit.** 

### 19 **MR. RIVEST: So the scope we're** 

### 20 **talking about here is there are test procedures** 

### 21 **to measure the performance of air conditioners** 

### 22 **and embedded in those metrics is the energy**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 consumption of the motors under certain**  

### 2 **conditions. And that's a factor in the** 

### 3 **calculation of EER and potentially other metrics** 

### 4 **down the road. So the scope is any motor that's** 

### 5 **in the unit that's measured in the test** 

### 6 **procedure.** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: Perhaps some of the** 

### 8 **HVAC manufacturers could talk about the** 

### 9 **different types of motors that they use in their** 

### 10 **products?** 

### 11 **MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharp with** 

### 12 **Goodman. And we typically use 48 frames and** 

### 13 **56 frames, mostly air-over products, motors,** 

### 14 **and a lot of our small commercial as defined** 

### 15 **by DOE and less than 55,000 BTU product. But** 

### 16 **then I believe some of the higher horsepower** 

### 17 **motors are probably general -- would be more** 

### 18 **classified as general purpose.** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: And so Rusty, are** 

### 20 **those types of motors ones that you would be** 

### 21 **swapping out within a basic model? Is the issue** 

### 22 **correlating the performance of say a 56 frame**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1 with a general purpose motor because that**  

### 2 **changeover would be within one basic model?** 

### 3 **MR. THARP: I think that is a** 

### 4 **portion of the issue. I believe that the** 

### 5 **proposal that was last given would actually be** 

### 6 **acceptable for that situation where a** 

### 7 **manufacturer may use an air-over rated motor** 

### 8 **in their base model and a general purpose motor** 

### 9 **in their higher horsepower models.** 

### 10 **However, I think the bigger issue,** 

### 11 **as my understanding, not being a motor expert,** 

### 12 **obviously is that the air-over motors do not** 

### 13 **have an industry standard test procedure or** 

### 14 **industry standard rating procedure. So that** 

### 15 **if the base motor -- all base motors that are** 

### 16 **air-over may not be tested the same way,** 

### 17 **therefore, there may be some variance in the** 

### 18 **efficiency reported of the base motor and also** 

### 19 **the horsepower rating that would be used for** 

### 20 **comparison also would not necessarily be** 

### 21 **consistent from manufacturer to manufacturer.** 

### 22 **MR. DELANEY: This is Dan Delaney**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1 from Regal. Just to add on to that, that's a**  

### 2 **very good point and the point that I was going** 

### 3 **to try to share. There's some other aspects** 

### 4 **about what was just shared about the 48, 56 frame** 

### 5 **rating so if you look at, you know, the lower** 

### 6 **end of 48, 56 and you're talking about fractional** 

### 7 **and lower integral horsepower, there's not many** 

### 8 **delineations in the NEMA tables for those** 

### 9 **applications.** 

### 10 **You find a lot of these air-over** 

### 11 **applications are winding up in the fractional** 

### 12 **or decimal type of horsepower or a lot of them** 

### 13 **even yet have no horsepower because horsepower** 

### 14 **is irrelevant. This is a sampled motor that** 

### 15 **goes in that is usually specifically designed** 

### 16 **for that type of application or that pressure** 

### 17 **or whatever that unit happens to be. But the** 

### 18 **general purpose horsepower per pull count** 

### 19 **doesn't usually fall in nicely to this air-over** 

### 20 **in addition to what was said about being able** 

### 21 **to test those at efficiencies where a general** 

### 22 **purpose continuous motor can be loaded at a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 horsepower to speed, obviously set to test**  

### 2 **standards to IEEE or CSA to define how that test** 

### 3 **is run. And their air-over motor cannot run** 

### 4 **continuously without its application being the** 

### 5 **definition of air-over.** 

### 6 **So whether it's belted or direct fan** 

### 7 **application, it's necessary to have that exact** 

### 8 **setup of the air-over and that, of course, makes** 

### 9 **it difficult to measure the torque which is very** 

### 10 **critical to the efficiency tests.** 

### 11 **So in the DOE motor regulations we** 

### 12 **have always considered air-over as out of scope** 

### 13 **because of that difficulty. There has been** 

### 14 **attempts to address it, address the lack of** 

### 15 **air-over test standards, but no one has come** 

### 16 **up with a good solution as to how to properly** 

### 17 **load it, bring it up to thermal equilibrium** 

### 18 **because of the dependency upon that application** 

### 19 **determines the load on the fan, the cooling,** 

### 20 **so all those integral points are necessary to** 

### 21 **be able to test that efficiency. So that does** 

### 22 **create some complications of just trying to look**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 at standard efficiencies.**  

### 2 **Then one last point on 48, 56 frame,** 

### 3 **while a lot of the single phase now will roll** 

### 4 **into some regulation into 2015 with the small** 

### 5 **motor rule, air-over would be a considered** 

### 6 **application, now again, would be out of scope** 

### 7 **with the general purpose definition as far as** 

### 8 **NEMA is concerned. We can have discussion about** 

### 9 **that if that's necessary. But typically again** 

### 10 **air-over would be considered not a general** 

### 11 **purpose application. So it could be difficult** 

### 12 **to determine what to pick the standard** 

### 13 **efficiency levels at percentages of loss, but** 

### 14 **most of the product would not be typically rated** 

### 15 **in that manner.** 

### 16 **MR. RIVEST: So a couple of** 

### 17 **questions. Mike Rivest. There is an industry** 

### 18 **advocacy group proposal to the Department that** 

### 19 **would expand the scope of covered products for** 

### 20 **regulations and therefore test procedures to** 

### 21 **include definite purpose motors. Would the** 

### 22 **air-over motors be part of that increased scope?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 MR. DELANEY: So a very good**  

### 2 **question. The NEMA and the energy efficiency** 

### 3 **advocates, which typically been using the term** 

### 4 **motor coalition, made a proposal just as you** 

### 5 **stated. One of the five, I believe, five** 

### 6 **exempted products would be the air-over. And** 

### 7 **the only real reason is the lack of an ability** 

### 8 **to test it because the ability to load it and** 

### 9 **to test it, you may use a general purpose motor.** 

### 10 **Those would be applicable in a belted** 

### 11 **application, but unfortunately a lot of them** 

### 12 **do rely on air-over and some may not even have** 

### 13 **horsepower. Horsepower on the name plate may** 

### 14 **be irrelevant without the ability to have a test** 

### 15 **data for an air-over that makes the efficiency** 

### 16 **regulation difficult, if not impossible to try** 

### 17 **to do that. So it's kind of a chicken-and-egg** 

### 18 **thing. You need the test standard really in** 

### 19 **place in the industry before you can start to** 

### 20 **pick efficiencies.** 

### 21 **MR. LIN: Paul Lin again. Maybe to** 

### 22 **further clarify my previous question, when I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 was asking about the scope, I was more asking**  

### 2 **about in terms of the tonnage and more the BTU** 

### 3 **that the covered equipment would be just to kind** 

### 4 **of frame to the NEMA members, the breadth of** 

### 5 **motor that we're talking about.** 

### 6 **I think the last conversation I had** 

### 7 **with Rusty was basically the scope would** 

### 8 **include, the covered equipment would include** 

### 9 **42, 48 PSC single phase motors. 48 frame single** 

### 10 **phase and 3 phase, 56 frame, and then we start** 

### 11 **going up into the 3 phase integral. So there's** 

### 12 **a wide breadth of covered products as well as** 

### 13 **within the integral side we've talked about** 

### 14 **general purpose duty rated, as well as I know** 

### 15 **there's some manufacturers out there that have** 

### 16 **air-over rated on their motors as well, so there** 

### 17 **is quite a bit of difference in terms of covered** 

### 18 **motors.** 

### 19 **And so just to rely on 1212 and 1211,** 

### 20 **I think we miss quite a bit of different** 

### 21 **available motors.** 

### 22 **MR. RIVEST: So you understand that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 relying on that was merely as a scaler. It**  

### 2 **wasn't intended to represent the universe of** 

### 3 **motors out there. It's a way of saying if a** 

### 4 **motor, a 5 horsepower motor has an efficiency** 

### 5 **X, what is the equivalent efficiency of a 10** 

### 6 **horsepower motor? So the tables are scalers.** 

### 7 **They're not absolute values. And I don't know** 

### 8 **if that scaling is less applicable to a motor** 

### 9 **because it's cooled by the air around it, rather** 

### 10 **than having an integral fan. I don't know that.** 

### 11 **You might know that.** 

### 12 **Getting back to why this all came** 

### 13 **up in the first place, manufacturers were asking** 

### 14 **for an exemption for motors operating under high** 

### 15 **static pressures. What are -- so really, we're** 

### 16 **not talking about outdoor condensers that have** 

### 17 **little static pressure, but we're talking about** 

### 18 **probably indoor units that face static pressure** 

### 19 **that's significantly higher than what is assumed** 

### 20 **in the test procedure. Are these motors that** 

### 21 **we're talking about here used primarily outdoors** 

### 22 **in condenser units or are they used indoors as**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 well?**  

### 2 **MR. LIN: The scope that I had** 

### 3 **talked about are indoor motors.** 

### 4 **MR. RIVEST: These are the indoor** 

### 5 **motors?** 

### 6 **MR. LIN: Yes. Can you define high** 

### 7 **static?** 

### 8 **MR. JOHNSON: This is Tom Johnson,** 

### 9 **Daikin McQuay. This rulemaking goes up to** 

### 10 **60-ton package rooftop units and some** 

### 11 **water-cooled units and on some of the packaged** 

### 12 **equipment, you can go up to 6 inches of total** 

### 13 **static pressure.** 

### 14 **MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with** 

### 15 **AAON. And it goes down to any three-phase** 

### 16 **equipment which could go down to one or two-ton** 

### 17 **equipment.** 

### 18 **MR. JOHNSON: Exactly.** 

### 19 **MR. FLY: And would also include ECM** 

### 20 **motors.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: But we are only** 

### 22 **talking about figuring out a relationship**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 between motors that would be swapped out within**  

### 2 **a single basic model, so we wouldn't be talking** 

### 3 **about a swap out between a 3-phase unit under** 

### 4 **65,000 BTU all the way up to the largest, very** 

### 5 **large commercial package air conditioning unit** 

### 6 **because all of that is not going to fall within** 

### 7 **the same basic model.** 

### 8 **MR. RIVEST: No, in fact, the way** 

### 9 **the basic model is defined it has to have the** 

### 10 **same refrigeration system.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: Exactly. So the** 

### 12 **trick is going to be figuring out a way to talk** 

### 13 **about the motors that would be exchanged within** 

### 14 **a single basic model, not -- we don't have to** 

### 15 **be able to draw a relationship from the very** 

### 16 **smallest motor all the way up to the very largest** 

### 17 **motor.** 

### 18 **MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON** 

### 19 **again. So for instance, with some of the small** 

### 20 **equipment and AHRI standard or test standard** 

### 21 **conditions you could be running something less** 

### 22 **than half a horsepower and you could go up to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 say two or three horsepower in that same basic**  

### 2 **model, just to give you kind of a range.** 

### 3 **MR. JOHNSON: And another range,** 

### 4 **this is Tom Johnson again. And another range,** 

### 5 **a standard test model or base model might be** 

### 6 **a 5 or 7.5 horsepower motor in a package unit** 

### 7 **and it will go all the way up to 30 horsepower.** 

### 8 **So that's another range that you can consider.** 

### 9 **MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharp,** 

### 10 **Goodman. I would say ballpark, it's roughly** 

### 11 **1:5 or 1:6 ratio from the smallest motor to the** 

### 12 **largest motor.** 

### 13 **MR. RIVEST: And typically, correct** 

### 14 **me if I'm wrong here, because the understanding** 

### 15 **we have is that because of the DOE specified** 

### 16 **static pressure the product will almost always** 

### 17 **be certified with the smallest motor and that** 

### 18 **certification, say an EER of ten would then be** 

### 19 **extended to every other product up to if it's** 

### 20 **a half horsepower up to the 3 horsepower. So** 

### 21 **what we're trying to do here is make sure that** 

### 22 **manufacturers of HVAC equipment don't select,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 for example, an extreme example, an ECM motor**  

### 2 **of .5 horsepower, get a super great EER rating** 

### 3 **for that unit, and then extend that rating to** 

### 4 **the 1, the 2, the 3, the 4, and the 5 horsepower** 

### 5 **unit which are potentially not using ECM motors.** 

### 6 **The easy way to say it is the motor** 

### 7 **you certify with has to be no better than the** 

### 8 **motors that you're extending that rating to.** 

### 9 **That's sort of the plain English of it. We** 

### 10 **can leave it at that, I suppose, but then we'd** 

### 11 **be fighting later down the road about what that** 

### 12 **means, right? So we're looking here for a way** 

### 13 **of describing, a little more accurately for the** 

### 14 **lawyers and the engineers down the road, what** 

### 15 **we mean by no better or no worse.** 

### 16 **It may be that these air-over motors** 

### 17 **are less efficient. I imagine they are. Is** 

### 18 **that a fair assumption? Of course, there's no** 

### 19 **metric to measure it so we won't even be able** 

### 20 **to resolve that, but --** 

### 21 **MR. DELANEY: This is Dan Delaney** 

### 22 **again from Regal, just to share briefly on that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 comment, we'll say the fractional to**  

### 2 **low-integral horsepower are typically less** 

### 3 **efficient mainly because they haven't been** 

### 4 **regulated and the industry has never really had** 

### 5 **a need for it. And there's also the physics** 

### 6 **issue with as we get smaller in diameter, we** 

### 7 **do get less efficient. So there's a lot of** 

### 8 **factors that drive it, but that's a fairly** 

### 9 **generic statement it can be less** 

### 10 **efficient than its larger or integral horsepower** 

### 11 **brothers, let's say.** 

### 12 **MR. RIVEST: So if I were to certify** 

### 13 **a product, I don't know what the words are any** 

### 14 **more, the product group, the basic model that** 

### 15 **has multiple size motors in there, how do I come** 

### 16 **up** 

### 17 **-- how do I describe the efficiency requirements** 

### 18 **on those motors? Do I -- can I do it by** 

### 19 **technology if I can't do it by efficiency? Can** 

### 20 **I say an ECM motor has to be replaced by an ECM** 

### 21 **motor? Can I say an air-over can only be** 

### 22 **replaced by an air-over?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 I mean at some point in time,**  

### 2 **manufacturers are going to have to use an AEDM** 

### 3 **and AEDMs have built-in assumptions about watts** 

### 4 **consumed. So someone, somewhere knows the** 

### 5 **watts consumed by these motors.** 

### 6 **MR. LIN: I think the difficulty for** 

### 7 **motor manufacturers would be where in the** 

### 8 **application that particular motor may be running** 

### 9 **at. So let's use that same example, .5** 

### 10 **horsepower to 3 horsepower range. A .5** 

### 11 **horsepower AEDM could be an 80 percent** 

### 12 **efficiency range and then you go up to a 3 horse,** 

### 13 **and how do you scale from that 80 percent to** 

### 14 **that 3 horse? And then also, if you add a PSC** 

### 15 **motor at that same .5 horsepower it would be,** 

### 16 **let's say, 65 percent efficient and then scaling** 

### 17 **that to a 3 horse with a 12, 11 or 12, 12 table,** 

### 18 **I'm not sure you can draw a line between that** 

### 19 **because of the difference in the way that the** 

### 20 **motor is designed and used.** 

### 21 **MR. RIVEST: I'm sorry, could you** 

### 22 **explain more? So definitely I can use those**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 tables to scale to your 64 to a higher number**  

### 2 **for 3 horsepower, right? Why not?** 

### 3 **MR. LIN: Well, maybe this might** 

### 4 **be a good opportunity -- let's say if we take** 

### 5 **an example of a .5 to 3, how would you use your** 

### 6 **Excel sheet there to scale from a .5 to a 3 horse,** 

### 7 **for example?** 

### 8 **So if we had a PSC motor at 65 percent** 

### 9 **assuming some operating point and the ECM** 

### 10 **operating at 80 percent efficiency at .5 and** 

### 11 **then how -- what would the efficiency be for** 

### 12 **a 3 horse motor in that same basic group?** 

### 13 **MR. RIVEST: Okay.** 

### 14 **MR. LIN: Would you be able to** 

### 15 **crunch through that Excel sheet that was** 

### 16 **developed in order to come up with a 3 horse** 

### 17 **example?** 

### 18 **MR. RIVEST: Yes, so what is your** 

### 19 **-- let's say you had a .5 at 66.5 is that what** 

### 20 **that is? I can't read that, efficiency, first** 

### 21 **column.** 

### 22 **MR. LIN: Say for a PSC motor we'll**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 say on after 65 percent efficient for PSC at**  

### 2 **half.** 

### 3 **MR. RIVEST: So you said a quarter** 

### 4 **or a half? I'm sorry, what did you say was the** 

### 5 **horsepower rating?** 

### 6 **MR. LIN: One half.** 

### 7 **MR. RIVEST: One half. So that is** 

### 8 **line 8 and then you scroll until you see 65.** 

### 9 **I don't see 65. So that is so much less** 

### 10 **efficient than that table, but I would have to** 

### 11 **extend my columns to have --** 

### 12 **MR. DELANEY: Again, this is Dan** 

### 13 **Delaney. You know one thing I wanted to share** 

### 14 **before and we can use maybe an example and I** 

### 15 **don't really have an example in hand. I could** 

### 16 **just make one up, but the tables in which you** 

### 17 **have here represent a structured set of product** 

### 18 **and that we should probably have said that.** 

### 19 **You mentioned that before. So what this table,** 

### 20 **the one that you're in, row 8, that represents** 

### 21 **cap start cap run and cap start induction run** 

### 22 **and polyphase motors essentially in those ranges**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 of horsepower.**  

### 2 **The table below that, the integral** 

### 3 **first power represents polyphase motors. So** 

### 4 **the example in which Paul was providing is a** 

### 5 **PSC, a permanent split capacitor. It was not** 

### 6 **considered within the scope of the regulations** 

### 7 **and it does have less efficiency, but it is a** 

### 8 **prominently used type product right there. So** 

### 9 **is other types of product that are not regulated.** 

### 10 **So one of the questions you brought** 

### 11 **up, and I struggle a little bit about the scope** 

### 12 **as well, and that was something Paul and I wanted** 

### 13 **to have better understanding because it is a** 

### 14 **wide range as someone mentioned, I think he said** 

### 15 **100 and some ton. So we have a large range from** 

### 16 **integral horsepower which that can be addressed** 

### 17 **there fairly easily, most of them being** 

### 18 **polyphase.** 

### 19 **As you get into the smaller product,** 

### 20 **you can even have shaded-pole product, certainly** 

### 21 **PSC is relevant in there, some split phase is** 

### 22 **relevant. So there's a wide range. So if we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 limited the types of motors in the application,**  

### 2 **yes, there's associated efficiencies, but just** 

### 3 **so we understand the tables in which I'm assuming** 

### 4 **most of this is based off of the DOE regulation** 

### 5 **tables. So those efficiencies of those type** 

### 6 **motors are going to be much higher than a PSC,** 

### 7 **even at the lowest end, a shaded pole.** 

### 8 **MR. RIVEST: So I want to make sure** 

### 9 **these tables aren't misunderstood. These** 

### 10 **tables don't -- are not minimums of anything.** 

### 11 **They just happen to be 1211, 1212, and then** 

### 12 **I went 20 percent higher losses, 20 percent lower** 

### 13 **losses. We can go 50 percent higher losses and** 

### 14 **50 percent lower losses and create a new set** 

### 15 **of numbers, but that would encompass every** 

### 16 **shaded-pole, permanent-split, whatever you** 

### 17 **want. All it does is it establishes your** 

### 18 **starting efficiency and then you read down the** 

### 19 **column.** 

### 20 **So we're not saying that all quarter** 

### 21 **horsepower motors have to meet 71 percent or** 

### 22 **something like that. So this table can be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 expanded. It's not a problem. And I don't see**  

### 2 **why different technologies can't all be worked** 

### 3 **with the same table. I mean I've worked the** 

### 4 **math. The math is the same. Losses are losses.** 

### 5 **All that matters is the horsepower and the** 

### 6 **percentage losses.** 

### 7 **MR. DELANEY: I guess the reason I** 

### 8 **brought that up, I'm glad you understood that,** 

### 9 **but the reasons I brought that up is it's not** 

### 10 **well understood. There is no segregated loss** 

### 11 **test method for the single-phase type of** 

### 12 **product. Losses are better understood on the** 

### 13 **poly phase because of the test procedure is a** 

### 14 **segregated loss method. So it's much better** 

### 15 **understood and that's how the NEMA tables were** 

### 16 **lined up to fall under those percentage.** 

### 17 **Whereas the single-phased product does not have** 

### 18 **that same association and I wouldn't say across** 

### 19 **the industry it's as well understood percentage** 

### 20 **of losses by type or generically by horsepower** 

### 21 **either. So less known just simply because there** 

### 22 **is no test standard around that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 MR. RIVEST: In small motors?**  

### 2 **MR. DELANEY: In small motors.** 

### 3 **MR. RIVEST: I thought we have a** 

### 4 **final rule and we're going to be implementing** 

### 5 **a standard.** 

### 6 **MR. DELANEY: So remember, if we go** 

### 7 **back into what we talked about cap start, cap** 

### 8 **run product that identifies --** 

### 9 **MR. RIVEST: So the standards apply** 

### 10 **only to a limited subset of the motors. I see** 

### 11 **what you're saying. But that doesn't --** 

### 12 **MR. DELANEY: Let me continue.** 

### 13 **Those standards in which those motors will be** 

### 14 **used is just simply an input over output method.** 

### 15 **There is no segregation of losses in that test** 

### 16 **method, so it's not as well understood, nor has** 

### 17 **it been relevant in the industry up to this** 

### 18 **regulation point, so I won't say there's a lot** 

### 19 **of understanding in the industry today of types** 

### 20 **of losses by horsepower, by type, on and on,** 

### 21 **right? It is just less understood. Not as much** 

### 22 **in the industry to that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 MR. RIVEST: Okay, you're saying**  

### 2 **that test procedure and the ratings of motors** 

### 3 **of fractional horsepowers today is not quite** 

### 4 **what it needs to be by the time the standard** 

### 5 **is implemented.** 

### 6 **MR. DELANEY: I won't say that.** 

### 7 **Certainly, each motor manufacturer is going to** 

### 8 **have their product line ready for regulation,** 

### 9 **obviously, unless they're not going to provide** 

### 10 **the product at the time, but I don't see a giant** 

### 11 **rush for the industry to provide that ahead of** 

### 12 **the regulation, I guess is what I'm saying.** 

### 13 **So 2015 is when that regulation** 

### 14 **becomes effective. Here we are mid to late** 

### 15 **2013. It probably will be some time still until** 

### 16 **you start to see that higher efficiency product** 

### 17 **because it is higher efficiency for the most** 

### 18 **part of the products you would find today on** 

### 19 **stock, distribution-type availability.** 

### 20 **Today's product is going to be on the whole less** 

### 21 **efficient, but you're not going to find** 

### 22 **efficiencies on most of that product today.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 So the baseline is going to be zero and then**  

### 2 **you're going to move into a regulated state at** 

### 3 **those regulated levels.** 

### 4 **MR. RIVEST: Okay, well, I'm going** 

### 5 **to repeat myself, but all we're trying to do** 

### 6 **here is make sure that when Trane, Carrier,** 

### 7 **Rheem, and Goodman test their units with a motor** 

### 8 **that is used to certify a group of units, that** 

### 9 **the base model has a motor that is no worse than** 

### 10 **the others and no better, I'm sorry.** 

### 11 **So if it's a shaded pole that's used** 

### 12 **in the certified unit and you want to use a more** 

### 13 **efficient type in the larger motor, that's not** 

### 14 **a problem. I don't think we need to contest** 

### 15 **those things to know that a certain technology** 

### 16 **is going to be better. I think if you want to** 

### 17 **qualify the product with an induction motor and** 

### 18 **make the larger units ECMs, I don't think we're** 

### 19 **going to be testing any of that either.** 

### 20 **And now I'm going to look at DOE** 

### 21 **because we haven't talked about this, but if** 

### 22 **you want to substitute an induction motor with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 an induction motor with a variable-speed drive**  

### 2 **in your other unit, I think we'd be real happy** 

### 3 **with that. Wouldn't care if the induction motor** 

### 4 **itself was less efficient.** 

### 5 **So it's just common sense we're** 

### 6 **trying to get at here and what I'm hearing is** 

### 7 **that these tables could work in integral** 

### 8 **horsepower motors pretty simply, but it gets** 

### 9 **complicated in the fractionals.** 

### 10 **MR. DELANEY: One suggestion, and** 

### 11 **I apologize. I just wanted to make sure we had** 

### 12 **the right thing we were talking about there.** 

### 13 **Would you mind continue that example -- you** 

### 14 **brought this Excel spreadsheet out and I** 

### 15 **apologize for getting us off track, but** 

### 16 **nonetheless, if you wouldn't mind just using** 

### 17 **the 3 horsepower example picking some point off** 

### 18 **there and explain that method again just for** 

### 19 **our sake.** 

### 20 **MR. RIVEST: So let's do the easy** 

### 21 **part, okay? Let's pretend the 3 is the smallest** 

### 22 **in the family of basic -- a family of products**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1 all certified under the same basic model. So**  

### 2 **the 3, what you do is you walk down the columns** 

### 3 **until you find the efficiency of the motor you** 

### 4 **used in your basic model that's certified. So** 

### 5 **in this case, let's say it's 88.9. All right?** 

### 6 **Turns out that that motor has 6 percent more** 

### 7 **losses than the standard. If you're** 

### 8 **going to then extend that certification to a** 

### 9 **unit with a higher static pressure that has --** 

### 10 **that requires a 10 horsepower, you walk down** 

### 11 **that column until you hit 10 horsepower and that** 

### 12 **is the efficiency of the motor you need to** 

### 13 **install in that larger unit at a minimum.** 

### 14 **So each of those columns is self** 

### 15 **contained. You find which column you belong** 

### 16 **to by knowing the efficiency of the base model.** 

### 17 **It's a scaler. I'm using the standard as a** 

### 18 **scaler, but I'm not using the standard for** 

### 19 **anything to require minimums.** 

### 20 **Does that make sense?** 

### 21 **MS. HOOTMAN: Mike, this is Jill** 

### 22 **from Trane. One of the questions I've had on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 this though, you said there's no minimums, but**  

### 2 **in fact, there are minimums for that type of** 

### 3 **motor that you have in that table. Isn't that** 

### 4 **correct?** 

### 5 **MR. RIVEST: There are no minimums** 

### 6 **because I didn't -- I mean that table -- so I** 

### 7 **just picked plus or minus 20 percent losses.** 

### 8 **But we can extend it to a motor that's much** 

### 9 **less efficient. That's not a problem.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: I think what Jill is** 

### 11 **saying is that that table is based off of motors** 

### 12 **that are subject to a federal standard.** 

### 13 **MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: And so there is a** 

### 15 **minimum, but I think part of what DOE's thought** 

### 16 **was if you took a comparably sized direct purpose** 

### 17 **motor that was not subject to the standard, it** 

### 18 **would be possible to obtain one that does not** 

### 19 **have the efficiency of the federal standards.** 

### 20 **And so we contemplated both an increase and** 

### 21 **a decrease relative to the standard.** 

### 22 **MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 MR. RIVEST: I'm sorry, I hadn't**  

### 2 **understood your question. Yes, if we're** 

### 3 **talking general purpose motors, there's a hard** 

### 4 **minimum there. So you couldn't go in values** 

### 5 **below that have greater losses.** 

### 6 **MS. HOOTMAN: Right, but if they're** 

### 7 **definite purpose there isn't necessarily --** 

### 8 **MR. RIVEST: There isn't. So as** 

### 9 **long as you're in the same relative efficiency** 

### 10 **to the standard upper or lower, it's okay.** 

### 11 **MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. Okay.** 

### 12 **I understand now.** 

### 13 **MR. RIVEST: And that's why I think** 

### 14 **if your base model had a shaded pole motor at** 

### 15 **20 percent efficiency, then this table could** 

### 16 **work as well, so long as we added columns for** 

### 17 **greater increases in loss.** 

### 18 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John at** 

### 19 **DOE. Maybe we can use the concrete example.** 

### 20 **And if I'm asking a question I shouldn't be** 

### 21 **asking, just tell me and I'll take it back.** 

### 22 **But let's just say Company X is asking you for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 one of these air-over motors and they said give**  

### 2 **me the 1 horsepower air-over motor and this is** 

### 3 **the one they used to certify with DOE. If they** 

### 4 **ask for a 5 horsepower air-over motor, do we** 

### 5 **know what the properties of that are?** 

### 6 **I know you said the physics are such** 

### 7 **that the bigger they are, the more efficient** 

### 8 **generally they will be, just because that's the** 

### 9 **way it works. But can the motors guys say** 

### 10 **anything more than that or because there's no** 

### 11 **test procedure, we have no idea or what's going** 

### 12 **on?** 

### 13 **MR. LIN: I think what Dan was** 

### 14 **trying -- this is Paul Lin with Regal Beloit.** 

### 15 **What Dan was trying to explain is say when you** 

### 16 **put the qualifier that it's an air-over, the** 

### 17 **issue is how much air do you provide on the test** 

### 18 **stand when you're testing the motor for its** 

### 19 **efficiency? What size fan? Where is the air** 

### 20 **directed over the motor? How much air is** 

### 21 **directed over the motor? May have big** 

### 22 **consequences in terms of how much material you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1 can take out of the motor in order to meet the**  

### 2 **efficiency. That's the biggest question that** 

### 3 **we have is, if you use this table and you have** 

### 4 **an air-over, how do you measure the efficiency** 

### 5 **of an air-over rated motor?** 

### 6 **MR. RIVEST: Right. That's the** 

### 7 **problem. I mean that's what I understood the** 

### 8 **problem coming into this meeting.** 

### 9 **MR. CYMBALSKY: But if you were to** 

### 10 **supply an HVAC guy with a 1 or a 5 horse of the** 

### 11 **same air-over and they're putting it in a box** 

### 12 **in their product, I mean is there anything you** 

### 13 **could say about the difference between the one** 

### 14 **and the five at all? Given the rest of the** 

### 15 **circumstances being the same?** 

### 16 **MR. RODRIGUES: This is Randy** 

### 17 **Rodrigues at WEG. The issue on the air-over** 

### 18 **is that as somebody mentioned before, there's** 

### 19 **not necessarily, it's not like the motor has** 

### 20 **a fixed point of operating, so the same motor,** 

### 21 **you could make the same motor a 3 horse or a** 

### 22 **5 horse depending on how much air you're putting**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 over the motor and it's got different**  

### 2 **efficiency points, of course, when you're doing** 

### 3 **that. But it's a combination of load along with** 

### 4 **the amount of air you have over the motor cooling** 

### 5 **it. So it doesn't have the same kind of defined** 

### 6 **point that says here's the characteristic to** 

### 7 **call it a 5 horse motor or a 3 horse or a 1 horse.** 

### 8 **You get a pretty wide variety that way.** 

### 9 **MR. RIVEST: Right, in other words,** 

### 10 **you're driving it harder, hotter. You don't** 

### 11 **mind because you're cooling it. But there's** 

### 12 **got to be some normalization.** 

### 13 **MR. RODRIGUES: You're taking away** 

### 14 **more heat with more air, so it can operate** 

### 15 **higher.** 

### 16 **MR. RIVEST: Right. But if I am an** 

### 17 **HVAC manufacturer and I'm working with you,** 

### 18 **you're my supplier, I'm going to want to know** 

### 19 **how many watts that motor consumes here. Is** 

### 20 **your design criteria that it doesn't -- it just** 

### 21 **doesn't burn or do you go to -- are there other** 

### 22 **design criteria in motor failure?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 MR. LIN: I think part of the levers**  

### 2 **that we can use is based on what we talked about** 

### 3 **earlier which is what kind of technology of motor** 

### 4 **do you select to use within that application.** 

### 5 **Do you use PSC motor or do you use an ECM motor** 

### 6 **or do you use a cap start cap run in order to** 

### 7 **get there?** 

### 8 **From a --** 

### 9 **MR. RIVEST: Would it be** 

### 10 **sufficient, I'm sorry, would it be sufficient** 

### 11 **in an air-over motor -- just for those motors** 

### 12 **-- to specify the technology of the base unit** 

### 13 **and say that the others in that base grouping** 

### 14 **have to have the same technology or better?** 

### 15 **I mean there is a hierarchy there, right?** 

### 16 **There's an understood -- it's** 

### 17 **understood that shaded poles are the worst and** 

### 18 **then ECMs are the best and then in between** 

### 19 **there's various capacitor configurations.** 

### 20 **Would that be sufficient? And I understand you** 

### 21 **can make better steel and all that. What would** 

### 22 **give the Department a reasonable assurance that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 people are not designing to the certified unit?**  

### 2 **MR. LIN: This is Paul Lin again.** 

### 3 **Maybe if I can ask a question maybe to the OEMs** 

### 4 **is -- I understand what I think the ultimate** 

### 5 **goal is is trying to be able to come up with** 

### 6 **a model so you don't have to test each individual** 

### 7 **unit variation that you have in your catalog.** 

### 8 **Would it be safe to say that every** 

### 9 **motor that you have an option within your basic** 

### 10 **group or whatever you want to call that is tested** 

### 11 **in an air flow chamber?** 

### 12 **MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill for** 

### 13 **Trane. Not necessarily. We have the luxury** 

### 14 **or the ability through this certification to** 

### 15 **use simulation tools, so not every single basic** 

### 16 **model combination would necessarily have to be** 

### 17 **tested and therefore tested in an air flow** 

### 18 **chamber. We can use an AEDM or what they call** 

### 19 **an alternate efficiency determination method** 

### 20 **to predict our ratings on our models. So for** 

### 21 **instance, within a particular family we may not** 

### 22 **choose to actually have a test on every single**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1 model. We could use simulation tools.**  

### 2 **MR. LIN: And simulation tools, you** 

### 3 **would have enough validation that you've got** 

### 4 **enough air over certain parts of the unit and** 

### 5 **wouldn't have to do the actual testing?** 

### 6 **MS. HOOTMAN: Right.** 

### 7 **MR. RIVEST: And you would have** 

### 8 **sufficient information about the properties of** 

### 9 **the motor under certain loading conditions --** 

### 10 **MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly.** 

### 11 **MR. RIVEST: To know the watts.** 

### 12 **And that would be something you would share with** 

### 13 **your supplier and you would say you have to build** 

### 14 **me a motor that won't consume more than this** 

### 15 **many watts under these conditions.** 

### 16 **So how do we make that a --** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: This is Laura. How** 

### 18 **does that even happen if the motor manufacturers** 

### 19 **don't know what the consumption is of the motor?** 

### 20 **MR. RIVEST: They may know the** 

### 21 **relative consumption. They wouldn't know the** 

### 22 **absolute in the sense of -- because there's no**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1 benchmark, but they would know the number of**  

### 2 **watts under certain conditions.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: If they know relative,** 

### 4 **don't they always know which is the least** 

### 5 **efficient?** 

### 6 **MR. RIVEST: Yes. I'm sure they** 

### 7 **know exactly the watts.** 

### 8 **MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from** 

### 9 **DOE. I was just going to say that if you know** 

### 10 **-- if say Company X, the HVAC company knows that** 

### 11 **they use motor Y in their base unit to certify** 

### 12 **or to create the AEDM, whatever it is, I mean** 

### 13 **if the motor manufacturer is the same supplier,** 

### 14 **wouldn't they know if they're going to move up** 

### 15 **on horsepower, if that motor was at least as** 

### 16 **-- I won't even use the word efficient because** 

### 17 **we can't measure it apparently for some motors,** 

### 18 **but was at least -- the properties were at least** 

### 19 **as good as the one that was supplied for the** 

### 20 **one that was certified to?** 

### 21 **MR. LIN: Assuming that you're** 

### 22 **using the same blower efficiency from unit A**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1 to unit B.**  

### 2 **MR. RIVEST: Yes, I think we have** 

### 3 **to assume that.** 

### 4 **MR. CYMBALSKY: You have to assume** 

### 5 **something like that, yes.** 

### 6 **I mean like going back to the** 

### 7 **original premise here, we're just trying to get** 

### 8 **to the point where this -- the motor swap-out,** 

### 9 **we're trying to get to a point where we're okay** 

### 10 **with it, but you know we need to know that the** 

### 11 **swap-out isn't with an inferior motor with** 

### 12 **respect to its energy consumption. And so** 

### 13 **that's all we're trying to do here. I know some** 

### 14 **of these are uncovered. We don't have a test** 

### 15 **procedure, but what we wanted to ask from the** 

### 16 **manufacturers: is there some sort of a** 

### 17 **relationship that can be built to ensure that** 

### 18 **we can get to that point.** 

### 19 **MR. ERNST: This is Skip Ernst at** 

### 20 **McQuay. For many sizes, there is a relatively** 

### 21 **simple way to do it if the manufacturer for an** 

### 22 **oversized motor uses a general purpose legal**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1 motor, then you can be quite certain you've got**  

### 2 **almost the best motor there is. You've got a** 

### 3 **good, efficient motor that's being used. That** 

### 4 **isn't going to help in the fractional horsepower** 

### 5 **sizes, but in the integral horsepower sizes it's** 

### 6 **a real simple solution.** 

### 7 **MR. DELANEY: Just one point to that** 

### 8 **and not to add to confusion, but that motor,** 

### 9 **let's say -- that's a great example, let's say** 

### 10 **you pull a 10 horsepower, for a pull motor on** 

### 11 **here and it's obviously regulated so it's an** 

### 12 **X percent efficiency that's stated on the name** 

### 13 **plate. You place that on that blower and you** 

### 14 **run it. And to your point it's oversized.** 

### 15 **Okay, so it's running at 75, 60, something less** 

### 16 **than name plate full-load efficiency, I'm sorry,** 

### 17 **full load. Well, that does affect the** 

### 18 **efficiency as well where the load it. It** 

### 19 **happens to be most induction motors are 75 to** 

### 20 **100 percent. That's usually the prime** 

### 21 **efficiencies. But motors won't run that name** 

### 22 **plate efficiency.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1 It's under a very, very specific**  

### 2 **criteria that that efficiency point is** 

### 3 **calculated at, so load is one of those factors** 

### 4 **that plays into that. Fan speed can also play** 

### 5 **into that factor as well, too. Very stated and** 

### 6 **very tight efficiencies where now you think** 

### 7 **you're getting the best, but maybe that blower** 

### 8 **combination with that motor whether scaling up** 

### 9 **or scaling down, I'm still having a little** 

### 10 **struggle.** 

### 11 **I'm struggling with the idea of how** 

### 12 **big of a range you could scale up and down.** 

### 13 **I don't have my head wrapped around how wide** 

### 14 **of a range we'd be doing that. But that also** 

### 15 **is a factor that plays into that efficiency as** 

### 16 **well.** 

### 17 **Do you just want to look at a name** 

### 18 **plate --** 

### 19 **MR. ERNST: That is a major factor** 

### 20 **in this mode of operation. The reason -- I mean** 

### 21 **the customer has an application that needs more** 

### 22 **air or more static, more filtration,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1 economizers, things like this that they need**  

### 2 **and it's much different than the standard test** 

### 3 **mode. So the only time anybody puts on a bigger** 

### 4 **motor is if they need it. ASHRAE 90.1 already** 

### 5 **tells them they can't oversize the motor by more** 

### 6 **than a very reasonable amount that some smart** 

### 7 **people put together the rules on. And we don't** 

### 8 **give people 30 horse motors when they only need** 

### 9 **5 horsepower. They don't want it. They** 

### 10 **wouldn't pay for it.** 

### 11 **MR. RIVEST: We completely** 

### 12 **understand that and no one here is going to tell** 

### 13 **the manufacturers what horsepower to install.** 

### 14 **We just want to make sure that once they've** 

### 15 **decided to install a 30 that it's a good 30.** 

### 16 **That's all we want.** 

### 17 **MR. ERNST: Right. And again, at** 

### 18 **least in this one case which is for an awful** 

### 19 **lot of units, if the manufacturer uses the legal** 

### 20 **-- call it a premium efficiency general purpose** 

### 21 **motor, you'd be very happy. It's pretty cut** 

### 22 **and dry.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1 MR. RIVEST: We're there. I think**  

### 2 **we came into this meeting understanding that** 

### 3 **for integral motors, we had a good framework** 

### 4 **here.** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: So to give a little** 

### 6 **bit of context to the motor manufacturers, I** 

### 7 **think DOE started this conversation several** 

### 8 **weeks ago with sort of the mindset that, oh,** 

### 9 **motors are regulated and so we can assume that** 

### 10 **motors are fairly efficient and then we started** 

### 11 **learning that there were all these different** 

### 12 **non-regulated kinds of motors going into this** 

### 13 **equipment and that's part of what changed the** 

### 14 **conversation was that what we heard from the** 

### 15 **HVAC manufacturers is that it is not all general** 

### 16 **purpose induction motors that are going into** 

### 17 **this equipment. There are a lot of direct** 

### 18 **purpose motors. There are these air-over** 

### 19 **motors. There are just a lot of different types** 

### 20 **of motors going into the equipment.** 

### 21 **And then it became an issue of well** 

### 22 **how do we compare motors? How do we have some**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1 level of confidence that when they use one type**  

### 2 **of motor in one application when they want the** 

### 3 **higher static that they're substituting an** 

### 4 **equivalent efficiency or better motor, that the** 

### 5 **final system is performing as well as the one** 

### 6 **that was originally certified?** 

### 7 **If you're working with an HVAC** 

### 8 **manufacturer and there was some requirement for** 

### 9 **the manufacturer to swap out a motor that is** 

### 10 **at least as efficient under certain performance** 

### 11 **characteristics as the one that they certified,** 

### 12 **would you feel comfortable looking at their** 

### 13 **specs and their performance and helping them** 

### 14 **select a motor? Do you feel like you would have** 

### 15 **enough information to help advise them?** 

### 16 **Because if the answer here is that you feel like** 

### 17 **you won't be able to do that, then I think we** 

### 18 **have a fairly big problem with this approach.** 

### 19 **MR. RIVEST: Said another way, Jill** 

### 20 **needs inputs to her AEDM. Can we have those** 

### 21 **inputs and use those as a scaler?** 

### 22 **MR. LIN: I am not going to -- this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1 is Paul Lin from Regal. I'm not going to say**  

### 2 **that we can't. I think the issue or the concern** 

### 3 **I have is what are the parameters that we're** 

### 4 **going to be given, whether we have enough** 

### 5 **parameters to define that.** 

### 6 **I think just thinking out loud here** 

### 7 **is I think on covered equipment, I think this** 

### 8 **scaling can possibly work. My only concern is** 

### 9 **whether if we scale up to the higher horsepowers,** 

### 10 **whether you would get -- where you would -- I'm** 

### 11 **not sure of the right way of saying this is you** 

### 12 **will have more motor than you would have had** 

### 13 **without having the scaling factors. You're** 

### 14 **basically having to mandate a higher efficiency** 

### 15 **motor because of the scaling factor.** 

### 16 **The reason I say that is on higher** 

### 17 **horsepower motors, you typically from low to** 

### 18 **high horsepower on the 12, 12 tables you'll** 

### 19 **notice kind of a plateauing of efficiency level** 

### 20 **and I understand you do a percent loss in trying** 

### 21 **to keep that the same. I think my concern is** 

### 22 **that you may drive to a higher efficiency on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1 the motor side when we still have to do some**  

### 2 **calculations on our side to make sure that we** 

### 3 **feel comfortable.** 

### 4 **MR. RIVEST: I understand.** 

### 5 **MR. LIN: So on the integral side,** 

### 6 **I think we're comfortable, somewhat comfortable** 

### 7 **in understanding what you're proposing here.** 

### 8 **I think the biggest issue and what I was trying** 

### 9 **to have you guys do is walk through an example.** 

### 10 **I think the biggest issue is when you have a** 

### 11 **basic group that spans multiple motor** 

### 12 **technologies and how do you address that because** 

### 13 **I don't think that that -- because of the** 

### 14 **technology that you use you can scale from a** 

### 15 **half to a three. And then also with the issues** 

### 16 **relative to the air-over.** 

### 17 **Maybe on non-covered equipment, I'm** 

### 18 **just going to throw it out here to the other** 

### 19 **NEMA guys to see what they say about it is, maybe** 

### 20 **it's just a matter of what we do on a simple** 

### 21 **motor curve test, let's say on a smaller motor** 

### 22 **side, on a PSC side, whenever we provide a motor**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1 to our OEMs, we give them a simple speed-torque**  

### 2 **curve and within that speed-torque curve is an** 

### 3 **efficiency calculated based on watts input** 

### 4 **relative to the output. So it's not like the** 

### 5 **IEEE 114(b) method with the segregated losses.** 

### 6 **So understanding that framework, we** 

### 7 **could possibly provide efficiencies on the** 

### 8 **motors based on that test, but I don't know if** 

### 9 **there's a test procedure that the DOE --** 

### 10 **MR. RIVEST: What you're proposing,** 

### 11 **just don't call it efficiency. Call it** 

### 12 **something else and it's a scaler to us. That's** 

### 13 **all we care.** 

### 14 **MR. LIN: So I think -- maybe the** 

### 15 **best thing to do is -- here's an idea, come up** 

### 16 **with some work, some basic group definitions** 

### 17 **with some motor ratings and let's see if we can't** 

### 18 **do some calculations on our side to see if that** 

### 19 **makes sense, if it's possible. We all know what** 

### 20 **-- at least the OEMs know what models they use** 

### 21 **relative to that basic group and we scale within** 

### 22 **that, I think the hope is is that you scale to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1 the same motor that you utilized today.**  

### 2 **MR. RIVEST: I think that's a great** 

### 3 **idea. We came up with this scaler thing. If** 

### 4 **you guys want to come up with a scaler that is** 

### 5 **different for good reason, that's fine.** 

### 6 **MR. LIN: I think that's maybe to** 

### 7 **keep things moving along. Maybe that's our ask** 

### 8 **is that if you guys can define --** 

### 9 **MR. RIVEST: You understand we** 

### 10 **don't define that.** 

### 11 **MR. LIN: No, I understand.** 

### 12 **MR. RIVEST: Okay.** 

### 13 **MR. LIN: But we're just looking for** 

### 14 **an example so that we can actually do some** 

### 15 **calculations with. So whatever OEM you can take** 

### 16 **it from the guys around the table and strip the** 

### 17 **names off**  **if you**  **want so**  **that**

**-- but**  **at**



### 18 **what I think we need from the motor guys is what** 

### 19 **are we looking at from a scaling standpoint,** 

### 20 **half horsepower to a three horsepower within** 

### 21 **this basic group? What is the current** 

### 22 **efficiency that you think you have on the motors?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1 But then let us do some calculations and get**  

### 2 **back and say, yes, we can do the same type of** 

### 3 **scaling or no, we can't, but we would make these** 

### 4 **changes to your scaling. I mean that's probably** 

### 5 **the best thing we can do at the moment.** 

### 6 **MR. RIVEST: I think that's good.** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: So if I understand** 

### 8 **correctly, your ask is for the HVAC** 

### 9 **manufacturers to come up with one or more** 

### 10 **scenarios, the manufacturer name stripped off** 

### 11 **of it, but just scenarios of I would use this** 

### 12 **kind of a motor as my base certified model and** 

### 13 **then these are motors I might swap out with some** 

### 14 **characteristics of those motors so that you** 

### 15 **would have enough information to play around** 

### 16 **with some scenarios?** 

### 17 **MR. LIN: Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: And this is Neil. How** 

### 19 **long would it take the HVAC people to do that** 

### 20 **and how long would it take the motor people to** 

### 21 **develop the scales?** 

### 22 **MR. LIN: Probably longer than what**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1 you would want us to do.**  

### 2 **(Laughter.)** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: That's a good start.** 

### 4 **Probably correct. But can you do it in a matter** 

### 5 **of days?** 

### 6 **MR. LIN: I would feel comfortable** 

### 7 **with giving us five days, five working days.** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: And I know I've heard** 

### 9 **Jill and Rusty on -- are you all willing to put** 

### 10 **together some information?** 

### 11 **MR. THARP: This is Rusty. Skip is** 

### 12 **off the line. Can you guys get something within** 

### 13 **a couple of days, to the motor guys? I think** 

### 14 **we can for --** 

### 15 **MR. ERNST: Rusty, this is Tom and** 

### 16 **Skip. Yes, we can do that yet today.** 

### 17 **MR. JOHNSON: And just to further** 

### 18 **clarify, I think that the best working group** 

### 19 **would be to have as much wide variation and** 

### 20 **motors utilized and horsepower range fractional** 

### 21 **to integral. I think that's the best one to** 

### 22 **take a stab at it.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1 MR. ERNST: Yes, we're not**  

### 2 **concerned about integral to integral here.** 

### 3 **We're just considering about fractional to** 

### 4 **integral or something like that, the oddballs.** 

### 5 **MR. RIVEST: So those product --** 

### 6 **MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, that's what I was** 

### 7 **going to ask. So something in the scenarios** 

### 8 **of fractionals to integrals, what about** 

### 9 **fractionals to ECMs or ECMs to fractionals?** 

### 10 **I can imagine some scenarios not all of them** 

### 11 **are actual in practice right now, but I can** 

### 12 **imagine some scenarios. Do you see what I'm** 

### 13 **saying?** 

### 14 **MR. LIN: Yes, and even on the** 

### 15 **integral side, too, there's the ECM to integral** 

### 16 **side, too, right? Or the 1212 tables that was** 

### 17 **talked about?** 

### 18 **MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, yes.** 

### 19 **MR. RIVEST: Yes, and I mean --** 

### 20 **MS. HOOTMAN: Does it have to be an** 

### 21 **actual unit that we have in production now or** 

### 22 **can it be some theoreticals that seem logical**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1 in the future?**  

### 2 **MR. LIN: I think that -- the reason** 

### 3 **I asked maybe something you have in production** 

### 4 **now is it would be a good baseline for you, right,** 

### 5 **to know if --** 

### 6 **MS. HOOTMAN: Right --** 

### 7 **MR. LIN: -- going back to today** 

### 8 **how it affects your current product line.** 

### 9 **MS. HOOTMAN: Sure, sure.** 

### 10 **MR. LIN: Whereas a theoretical,** 

### 11 **you may not be able to see that.** 

### 12 **MS. HOOTMAN: Right.** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: And when this is all** 

### 14 **done, would it be a good idea to have another** 

### 15 **informal meeting like this one or would we be** 

### 16 **ready to consider it during the next working** 

### 17 **group meeting? Should we aim for the end of** 

### 18 **next week to meet to have another phone call** 

### 19 **for a couple hours?** 

### 20 **MR. LIN: I think it would be good** 

### 21 **to have another phone call.** 

### 22 **MR. DELANEY: Agreed.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1 MS. HOOTMAN: So how are we getting**  

### 2 **this information and to who.** 

### 3 **MR. ERNST: Good question.** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: It sounds like you guys** 

### 5 **can exchange with each other, but it would** 

### 6 **probably be a good idea to copy the DOE people** 

### 7 **on it.** 

### 8 **MR. RIVEST: We don't need to see** 

### 9 **it until it's done.** 

### 10 **MS. HOOTMAN: I don't have all the** 

### 11 **emails or whatever that we're talking about** 

### 12 **here. I need to figure out how to get to you** 

### 13 **all. I'm kind of like them. I could probably** 

### 14 **line up something within a day here, if not this** 

### 15 **afternoon, definitely tomorrow, but I just want** 

### 16 **to know who I need to send that to.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: Jeremiah can get** 

### 18 **around a list of all the emails.** 

### 19 **MR. BOSENBERG: They can just send** 

### 20 **it to me as well.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: Do you have Alex's** 

### 22 **email?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1 MS. HOOTMAN: Alex?**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: NEMA.** 

### 3 **MS. HOOTMAN: I'm saying that with** 

### 4 **a question mark? No.** 

### 5 **MR. CYMBALSKY: We can send an** 

### 6 **email. We know everyone who is on here and then** 

### 7 **Alex --** 

### 8 **MS. HOOTMAN: Is that John?** 

### 9 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, this is John.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: If you'll send it to** 

### 11 **Jeremiah, he'll forward it around.** 

### 12 **MR. THARP: I think it would be good** 

### 13 **idea, perhaps, this is Rusty for Goodman again,** 

### 14 **if may send a reply to all, if Jeremiah would** 

### 15 **reply to all of the working group because I know** 

### 16 **there's possibly some who are not on this** 

### 17 **particular call and if they get an email, perhaps** 

### 18 **they can get some additional information so we** 

### 19 **can ask them to also supply -- so if you can** 

### 20 **send an email with detail of what we're looking** 

### 21 **for to everybody.** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: Is next Friday enough**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1 time?**  

### 2 **MR. LIN: Can we have someone to** 

### 3 **talk to at Navigant that developed this** 

### 4 **particular spreadsheet so if we had some** 

### 5 **questions we can make that contact directly?** 

### 6 **MR. RIVEST: Yes. It's Mike** 

### 7 **Rivest. You can call me any time.** 

### 8 **MR. BOSENBERG: This is Alex. I** 

### 9 **have Mike's contact information.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: Is Friday, the 23rd** 

### 11 **enough time because our next meeting is the** 

### 12 **following Monday.** 

### 13 **MR. ERNST: I think a lot depends** 

### 14 **on how fast we get that to them, Jill.** 

### 15 **MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Like I said,** 

### 16 **I'm pretty sure I can get it -- something anyway,** 

### 17 **tomorrow, if not this afternoon.** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: So we'll tentatively** 

### 19 **plan on another call next Friday and we'll hope** 

### 20 **that we actually have something to talk about.** 

### 21 **MS. HOOTMAN: And I'm like Rusty,** 

### 22 **if we send it to everyone else on here,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1 hopefully, maybe Lennox or Goodman -- I mean**  

### 2 **Rheem pipe in or Carrier, I'm sure Bob would** 

### 3 **come up with something.** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay, well, thank you** 

### 5 **all for your time this afternoon. And again,** 

### 6 **if you have questions about the spreadsheet,** 

### 7 **Mike Rivest is the go-to person there. If the** 

### 8 **HVAC manufacturers will send their motor** 

### 9 **information to Jeremiah, he will make sure that** 

### 10 **that gets distributed around and we'll also plan** 

### 11 **on a meeting next Friday, the 23rd.** 

### 12 **MR. RIVEST: I don't know if --** 

### 13 **sometimes it helps to have a little template** 

### 14 **put together so that people populate the same** 

### 15 **data fields, making sure that what the motor** 

### 16 **manufacturers need if they're getting, like --** 

### 17 **I don't know, I mean since something needs to** 

### 18 **be put together, what information, in other** 

### 19 **words, exactly do you need from Jill?** 

### 20 **MS. HOOTMAN: That's true. It's a** 

### 21 **good point. What do you need from us, OEM HVAC** 

### 22 **manufacturers. I envision that I was going to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1 put something like horsepower, well, first of**  

### 2 **all, the type of motor, you know, whether it's** 

### 3 **anything from shaded pole or PSC or whatever** 

### 4 **it is, the horsepower, the name plate horsepower** 

### 5 **of the motor, how it's used in this application.** 

### 6 **So kind of how the range of that application** 

### 7 **is and in RPM and static. And then show in that** 

### 8 **basic model family what the other options are** 

### 9 **in the upper range which might go from whatever,** 

### 10 **a PSC motor fractional to an integral or** 

### 11 **something like that. I don't know. I'm just** 

### 12 **talking off the top of my head there without** 

### 13 **examples in front of me. What other information** 

### 14 **do you need?** 

### 15 **MR. LIN: I could probably put in** 

### 16 **some information that we're looking for and then** 

### 17 **that way everyone is formatting the same. I** 

### 18 **can do that this afternoon.** 

### 19 **MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: Thank you all for your** 

### 21 **time and we'll be in touch.** 

### 22 **MR. CYMBALSKY: We did much better**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1 than the boiler guys this morning, so**  

### 2 **congratulate yourself.** 

### 3 **MS. HOOTMAN: Remember all the way** 

### 4 **through this, John, we're doing much better than** 

### 5 **the boiler guys.** 

### 6 **(Laughter.)** 

### 7 **MR. CYMBALSKY: One day at a time,** 

### 8 **Jill.** 

### 9 **(Whereupon, the above-entitled** 

### 10 **matter went off the record at 3:21 p.m.)** 

### 11 **12 13**  **14 15**  **16 17**  **18 19**  **20 21**  **22**

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38:11,15 39:2,7 48:3 way4:2,22 5:16,17

8:16 14:3 16:4,8 16:12,16 17:7 18:6,12 20:19 33:9 35:8 40:21 45:19 46:11 58:17 59:3 WEBINAR2:6 WEDNESDAY 1:8 week53:18 weeks44:8 WEG 2:19 34:17 went24:12 59:10 West2:4 we'll 19:1 21:22

56:18,19 57:10 58:21 we're 3:6,8 5:19

6:7,19 13:5 14:15 14:17,21 17:21 18:12 24:20 26:4 28:5,18 29:5 32:2 40:7,9,9,13 44:1 46:3 47:6 49:13 52:1,3 54:11 55:20 58:16 59:4 we've 5:15 13:13 wide 13:12 23:14

23:22 35:8 42:13 51:19 willing 51:9 winding9:11 word 39:16 words 19:13 35:9

57:19 work29:7 32:16

46:8 48:16 worked 25:2,3 working 3:5 35:17

45:7 51:7,18 53:16 55:15 works 33:9 worse 18:15 28:9 worst36:17 wouldn't 16:2

25:18 29:3,16 38:5,21 39:14 43:10 wrapped42:13 wrong 17:14 X X 14:5 32:22 39:10

41:12 Y Y 39:11 Z zero 28:11 1 18:4 33:2 34:10

35:7 1:5 17:11 1:6 17:11 10 14:5 30:10,11

41:10 100 23:15 41:20 11 20:17 114(b) 48:5 12 20:17,17,17

46:18,18 1211 13:19 24:11 1212 13:19 24:11

52:16 14 1:8 2 24:19 18:4 2:00 1:12 2:14 3:2 20 24:12,12 31:7

32:15 2013 1:8 27:15 2015 11:4 27:13 23rd 56:10 57:11 3 3 13:10,11 17:20 18:4 20:10,12,14 20:17 21:2,5,6,12 21:16 29:17,21 30:2 34:21 35:7 3-phase 16:3 3:21 59:10 30 17:7 43:8,15,15 4

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68 4 18:4 42 13:9 48 7:12 9:4,6 11:2 13:9,9 5 54:20 14:4 17:6 18:2,4 20:9,10,15 21:5,6,10,19 33:4 34:10,22 35:7 43:9 50 24:13,14 55,0007:15 56 7:13,22 9:4,6 11:2 13:10 6 6 15:12 30:6 6041:15 60-ton 15:10 6075 1:12 64 21:1 65 20:16 21:8 22:1

22:8,9 65,000 16:4 66.5 21:19 7 7.5 17:6 71 24:21 7541:15,19 8 8 22:8,20 80 20:11,13 21:10 88.9 30:59 90.1 43:4 93.1 4:19 950 1:12 96.24:21NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 69

Discussion of High Efficiency Motor Treatment Commercial HVAC Equipment

US DOE

08-14-13

Washington, DC