BEFORE THE UNITED STATES,J,^l^f;'^JyPO^^^^ 

U.S . DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION-'ftnAriOK'S' 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 7,-,,; rrn 

WASHINGTON, D.C. ^'^^ ^-0 ^U P /.- 5L,-. 

In the Matter of: 

M&R HELICOPTERS,- LLC , 

FA.A Docket No. CPlOSOOOll 

(Civil Penalty Action) 

FDMS NO. FA.A-2010-1211 

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Thursday, January 26th, 2012 

BEFORE: 

RICHARD C. GOODWIN 

U.S. Administrative Law Judge 

The above-entitled matter came on for 

Hearing at 9:00 a.m., pursuant to Notice, in 

the Fourth Floor Courtroom of the Holmes 

Building, 101 Larry Holmes Drive, Easton, 

Pennsylvania, when were present, on behalf of 

the part ies: 

REC 

FEB 21 200 

HEARlisiG DOCKET 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D C 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

s. 
APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Respondent: 

MICHAEL SELIG, MD, FACC, CFl-H 

Respondent's Representative 

2816 Orefield Road 

Allentown, PA 18104 

(610) 360-3953 

On Behalf of the Complainant: 

CHARLES RALEY, ESQ. 

Attorney, Enforcement Division 

AGC-3 00 

Office of the Chief Counsel 

Federal Aviation Administration 

800 Independence Ave., S.W. 

Washington, D.C. 2 0591 

(202) 267-3357 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE , N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
I-N-D-E-X 

Complainant's Opening Statement 

Respondent's Opening Statement: 

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WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 

VIRGINIA LOZADA 72 111 182 

AMY FR7VNKEL 188 

EDWARD L. BAKER 220 226 229 

E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S 

Exhibit No 

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1202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW 

WASHINGTON, DC. 20005-3701 www nealrgross.com 
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P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

9:28 a.m. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: We are on the 

record. Counsel, identify yourself for the 

record, please. And please be seated. 

MR. RALEY: Charles Raley for the 

Acting Administrator of the Federal Aviation 

Administration Service. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Spell your last 

name, please. 

MR. RALEY: Raley, R-A-L-E-Y. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And for the 

Respondent? 

DR. SELIG: Michael B. Selig, S-EL-I-G. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, thank you. 

Before we get started, I've got a VA certified 

hearing loss. And this is a big chamber. So, 

if I ask you to repeat something, don't take 

it personally. 

I literally can't hear you. And, 

if they have air conditioning that kicks on, 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

J323 RHODE ISLAND AVE , N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 w\,v\v.nealrgross.com 
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it's going to get woi'se. So, just be aware of 

that. I may ask you to speak up. I may ask 

you to repeat something. 

So don't take it personally, 

because 1 have difficulty hearing. A couple 

of preliminary matters. I normally take about 

a 15 minute break sometime around 10:30. 

We' re going to break for lunch 

from noon to 1 :30. I normally take a break 

around three if we go that long. I like to 

conclude hearings by 4 to 4:15. 

The reason is that, although I 

didn't see CSO's here, I'm sure they are in 

the building. My office doesn't have funding 

to pay for it. 

And I know the FAA doesn' t because 

that's where we get our funding from. So Z 

try to get out of the building -- I want 

everybody out of the building by five. 

If we go tomorrow we will 

reconvene at nine. So, think about that in 

terms of witnesses if you get to a comfortable 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.coin 
place around 10:15 or 10:30 with your vjitness. 

1 used to try cases in front of 

judges who at 10:30 would get up walk off the 

4 bench, even if you were in the middle of a 

5 sentence. I don't like to do that. 

6 So, if you can, find a comfortable 

7 place to break. Another thing. T want both 

8 counsel -- is it Dr. Selig? 

9 DR. SELIG: Yes. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, I want Dr. 

11 Selig and Mr. Raley to go through all of the 

12 exhibits. I don't want any personal 

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15 The transcript will go on the 

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17 internet. So, Doctor, make sure that all of 

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19 removed from exhibits, dates of birth, home 

2 0 phone numbers, home addresses. 

21 I have a black magic marker, which 

22 I bring for this purpose. So, social security 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 wwv/.nealrgross.com 
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numbers, dates of birth, home addresses, home 

phone numbers. 

When the witnesses testify, if it 

is necessary to put an address in, use a 

business address, okay? 

Because everything goes on the 

internet and because of the nature of vv^hat we 

do as a department, I just don't feel that 

information belongs in the record. 

So, and I'll also invite you to 

look at V7hat's been previously filed and, if 

there is something there that should be 

redacted, let me know and I will have Ms. 

Matthews pull them out of DMS, redact the 

information and reinsert it. 

You know, we live in a 

unfortunately, we live in a time that we've 

got to be careful about those things. But, do 

we have any preliminary matters? 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor, we 

do. We have quite a few we'd like to go 

through if possible, if that's all right. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N W. 

WASHINGTON, DC. 20005-3701 www neairgross.com 
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JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 

MR. RALEY : First, I' d 1 ike to 

start with certain admissions that Respondent 

has made in the course of the filings during 

in this case. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Are thev under 

oath? 

MR. RALEY: They are --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Or are they just 

answers to pleadings? 

MR. RALEY: Answers to pleadings. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, why don't we 

just cover that. Dr. Selig is pro se so the 

easiest way to do that -- you and I could do 

it legally. 

But I think it would be easier, 

procedurally, just to cover that as we go 

through. 

MR. RALEY: Okay. Then, Your 

Honor, if you would take judicial notice of 

certain regulations and - -

JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me - - Scot t 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.coin 
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Morrison and I used to go around -- Scott, who 

is now a Judge. I will take judicial notice 

of any regs, regulations, statutes, anything 

that is within the definition of judicial 

not ice. 

And the reason I do that. Doctor, 

is the FAA regulations tend to be two to three 

inches thick. And I have several copies of 

them and they fill up drawers. 

So it is easier to take judicial 

notice and then download it off the internet. 

So, at the appropriate time I will take 

judicial notice. As to exhibits, I'm not 

wedded to any procedure on exhibits, as long 

as you don't use the identical numbers. 

I prefer that you one of you use 

the alphabet, the other numbers. If you both 

u s e the alphabet then Complainant should but 

a C in front of it and Dr. Selig should put an 

R in front of it. 

.At the end of the hearing I will 

keep all of the exhibits. For the Court 

(202} 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D C 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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Reporter, I will keep all of the exhibits and 

transmit them. Another rule that I have is --

to the Court Reporter -- you know, we tend to 

speak in our own language. 

If you hear something that you 

don't -- you want it spelled, just raise your 

hand. That's everybody's cue to stop at an 

appropriate place, turn to the Court Reporter 

and say, that's spelled this way. 

That vjay she doesn' t -- at 8:30 

tonight when she's going over the transcript -

- tear her hair out trying to figure out what 

it is we all said. 

And, Mr. Raley, as you know, when 

you go through the hearing, please don't talk 

over each other. It's hard enough for her to 

record chis without having three of us talking 

at the same t ime. 

I'm sure you've had a few of 

those. Any other preliminary matters, Mr. 

Raley? 

MR. RALEY: Along the judicial 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW 

WASHINGTON. DC. 20005-3701 www nealrgross com 
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notice side, Your Honor, I just wanted to be 

clear about certain rule making. 

JUDGE GOODWIW: Sure. 

MR. RALEY: The Federal Register 

entries for 2004 and 2009, which are the rule 

making for the part 121, appendixes I and J. 

And then in 2009 the recodification of 

appendixes I and J into part 120. 

I just ask that you take judicial 

notice of those Federal Register provisions. 

1 can give you the citations. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, let's --

MR. RALEY: I have copies as well. 

(Pause.} 

JUDGE GOODWIN: What I'm doing, 

Doctor, is I make a spreadsheet of all the 

exhibits which, when Ms. Matthews.puts them 

into the record there will be a spreadsheet 

indicating my caption for whatever the exhibit 

is, whether it is identified for the record or 

whether it's entered for the record. 

So give me a secon d to set that 

(202) 2:i4-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE . N W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross com 
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upCOURT REPORTER: Mr. Raley, if you 

are going to be talking mostly can you pull 

the microphone closer to you? 

MR. RALEY: Yes, of course. 

COURT REPORTER: Thank you. 

MR. RALEY: No problem. 

(Pause.) 

JUDGE GQOU\<ill<^: And, Doctor, one 

of the reasons that I take judicial notice is 

the FAA regulations change with some 

frequency. 

By taking judicial notice what I'm 

telling my law clerk is to look at the 

regulations that were in effect at the time 

and the date of whatever the incident is. 

I do cases that may be six months 

eld, maybe six years old. And, within that 

six year span, the regulations frequently 

change. 

S o , while FAA Counsel is always 

diligent in trying to give us the copy of the 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRI3ERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N W. 

WASHINGTON, DC 20005-3701 www nealrgross.com 
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regs, by taking judicial notice, I'm taking 

judicial notice of the regs in effect at the 

time of whatever the incident is or - - and 

also the case law. 

The other thing that happens is 

case law may change. So, every once in a 

while I actually get reversed. 

DR. SELIG: What year are we using 

for? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Whatever the date 

of the allegation -- the Complaint gives a 

date so that would be the date. 

DR. SELIG: Well, but the 

infraction occurred July 2008. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Then that' s the 

reg that I would apply. 

DR. SELIG: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN : Okay . What I' m 

going to invite you to do, Mr. Raley, is when 

you get to that point in your presentation 

v.'here you get to the reg, just remind me 

again. I'll make those a joint exhibit. 

(202; 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 2D005-3701 www. nealrgross com 
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That's essentially the way I tell 

my law clerk. So you want me to take judicial 

notice of -- hold on a minute. 

MR. RALEY: Your Honor, that might 

just be an issue in that part of this 

proceeding is going to be the evidentiary 

matters. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. RALEY: 11 may a s wel 1 be 

noted in the post-hearing brief as part of the 

argument, with regard to the change. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. All right. 

The other thing I do, Doctor, is I used to do 

bench decisions. I found that whenever I did 

a bench decision I didn't give the case the 

insight that I should have given it. 

So, what we'll do here is we're 

going to take evidence and we'11 take 

testimony. This nice young lady will type up 

the transcript. It will be available to the 

FAA in about three weeks, maybe four. 

But, the way it works is she sends 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 wvAv.nealrgross com 
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ic Co the court reporting service we 

contracted with, which is in Washington, D.C. 

They then deliver to FAA headquarters. 

Mr. Raley may not see the 

transcript for v/eeks to months, because that's 

the way the Government works. What I'm going 

to ask you to do, Mr. Raley, is when you get 

the transcript, would you please let Dr. Selig 

know that you have the transcript? 

And at that point I'm going to ask 

the two of you to try to agree on a briefing 

schedule. The FAA will brief first . Two 

weeks later Dr. Selig can brief if he wants 

to. 

You don' t have to brief if you 

don' t want to, Doctor. Then, if Dr. Selig 

provides a brief then, Mr. Raley, you have a 

week after that to respond. 

And that's the way the rules would 

work. So, if once you've agreed on the 

scheduling, Mr. Raley, if you will prepare an 

order and forward it to Mr. Libowitz, I will 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D C. 20005-3701 www.neairgross.com 
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sign it. 

If you can't agree, then just let 

me know what the transcript dates are. I will 

probably institute a briefing schedule that 

will commence four weeks after everybody has 

got the transcript. 

And, of course Doctor, assuming 

that we are finished with the hearing today or 

tomorrov/, I would expect the exhibits to be on 

the internet probably about the end of next 

week. 

What Ms. Matthews does, when she 

gets my exhibits, she goes through and makes 

copies for the office and walks it down to 

docketing. So, she's been sick this week. 

That would be the only reason the 

exhibits would not be in DMS by the end of 

next week. And that applies to both parties. 

Just go to regulations.gov and you type in the 

DMS number, which is 2010-1211. 

I usually put the FAA in front of 

it because of there are federal motor carrier 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.coni 
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cases, there are OSD cases, the regulations 

are there. Wliat will happen is you will get 

the entire docket. 

And you just scroll down to where 

the exhibits are. So, Mr. Raley, I'm going to 

put the burden on you to set up, you know, 

attempt to set up a briefing schedule. 

T f you can't just let me know and 

I'll issue an order. 

MR. RALEY: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: If something comes 

up, with either one of you, once I do the 

scheduling order, if something comes up, there 

is a -- you end with a big trial, Mr. Raley, 

Doctor, you end up with a big anything 

associated with practice, talk with each 

other. 

If you can agree on a schedule let 

me know. If not, let me know you can't agree 

and I'll review what your request is. I want 

the tvyo of you to have the opportunity to 

brief the issues. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross com 
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And then onc e the briefs are in we 

will consider all of the evidence, all of the 

testimony, a s wel l a s you r arguments and then 

I'll issue a decision as appropriate. 

Mr. Raley, okay, I assume you want 

me to take judicial notice of the sanction 

tables? 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor, 

2153B. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Twenty-one, 53B, 

as of 2003 I think you said, Doctor, is that 

right? Without looking at the - -

DR. SELIG: Wait, can I get a copy 

of that? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. What else 

did you want me to take judicial notice of, 

Mr. Raley? 

MR. RALEY: One second. As well 

as -- in previous filings we've cited two of 

the De Joseph interpretation letter, which is 

found on West Law. 

It's a FAA interpretation of the 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE , N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C 20005-3701 www nealrgross.corn 
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drug and alcohol testing regulations as they 

relate to part 135 operators. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to make 

sure that Dr. Selig has copies of that. 

MR. RALEY: He has copie s of that. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: If you could just 

check during the break and make sure. 

Sometimes the pro se Respondents, they don't 

knov; what they have. 

MR. RALEY: Okay. 

else? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And, anything 

MR. RALEY: Well 

JUDGE GOODWIN: As we go through 

the testimony -- as you go through your 

presentation, if there are other things you 

v;ant me to take judicial notice of, just draw 

my attention to them to take a look at. 

MR. RALEY: There is one other 

item I'd just like to address here if 

possible. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS /\N0 TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C 20005-3701 

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MR. RALEY: Dr. Selig, Respondent 

has provided an email in numerous filings that 

we would like to have entered into the record 

as an exhibit in evidence. 

It's an email from Air Methods to 

the -- that was sent along the way as to Dr. 

Selig. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Proffer the 

exhibit at the appropriate time and we'll go 

from there. 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: But j ust 

Pleadings are just pleadings. 

MR. RALEY: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: They are not under 

oath. I don't give Complainant's answers, 

mocions or anything else much weight if they 

are not under oath. Any other preliminary 

matters? 

MR. RALEY: I believe that should 

cover it, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you want to 

(202) 234-4433 

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rule on witnesses? 

MR. RALEY: I'm sorry. Your Honor? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you want to 

rule on witnesses? Dr. Selig, a rule on 

witnesses -- I'm licensed in Maryland, that's 

a Maryland term. 

But, essentially, rule on 

witnesses is sequestering the witnesses during 

the testimony. Each side is allowed to have 

what I call a technical expert that sits at 

the table that may or may not testify. 

Other witnesses that may or may 

not testify don't necessarily have the right 

to be in the court room. The reason being you 

don't want witnesses sitting here listening to 

what -~ you know? 

It's not like Perry Mason, if 

you've' got a Perry Mason thing, somebody 

testifies they saw somebody do it and the 

witness is sitting listening to the testimony 

that can influence their testimony. 

So, the purpose of the rule on 

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secfuest rat ion is to have witnesses not be in 

the courtroom while the hearing is taking 

place. It's up to you two if you want it. 

The Court doesn't impose it. One 

instruction I'm going to give to all the 

witnesses is they are not to discuss their 

testimony with anybody prior to conclusion of 

hearing. 

So, you know, they can't go up and 

say, should I say this, should I say that? 

Obviously you can talk to -- Mr. Raley can 

talk to his witnesses. 

But he can't tell them what they 

should or should not say or anything else. So 

as to the rule on witnesses, Counsel. Any 

position? 

MR. RALEY: We have no position. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 

MR. RALEY: No position. Your 

Honor. If you require sequestration --

o^UDGE GOODV^IN: I don't require 

it . 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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MR. RALEY: Okay. Then we are 

JUDGE GOODWIN: -Dr. Selig? 

DR. SELIG: I request it. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Pardon me? 

DR. SELIG: I would like to 

request it 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Then what 

we'll do is if - - unless -- who is your 

technical expert? 

MR. RALEY: Ms. Amy Frankel will 

be our technical expert, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. She will be 

allowed to remain in the room. The other two 

witnesses I'm going to ask to -- I'm sure 

there's a waiting area here, though T don't 

know where it is. 

And then we'll allow you to 

retrieve them at the point in time of their 

test imony. 

MR. RALEY: Yes, You r Honor . 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Let' s g o of f th e 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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record for just a minute to give you a chance 

to -- the two people on the bench, will they 

be testifying? 

MR. RALEY: No, Ms . Caron is - -

I'm sorry, back here? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

MR. RALEY: Mr. Barnette is a 

possible rebuttal witness. And he serves for 

rebuttal only. Ms. Lozado will be our first 

witness. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okav. Then the 

gentleman should probably wait outside because 

he's a potential witness. Your technical 

expert can stay. 

MR. RALEY: Ms. Frankel. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So what 

we're going to do is we're going to go off the 

record for about two minutes and allow you to 

tell the witnesses what's going on. 

I'll come back on and then 

where do you want the witness? 

COURT REPORTER: It's fine right 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. NW 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www, nea I rgross. com 
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over there. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I guess the 

witness sits over there. When I come back on 

t h e benc h hav e the witness up her e an d I will 

swear them in. 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor. 

DR. SELIG: If I may please the 

Court. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 

DR. SELIG: If I may please the 

Court, on the subject of witnesses. Ms. 

Frankel was never entered as a -- there was no 

information given about Ms. Frankel. So I 

object to her giving any kind of testimony. 

COURT REPORTER: Are we on the 

record? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: When we come back 

on the record. 

COURT REPORTER: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: We' re off the 

record. 

(Whereupon, the above-entitled 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W 

WASHINGTON. D C 20005-3701 www nealrgross.com 
macter went off the record at 9:30 a.m. and 

went back on the record at 9:35 a.m. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: On the record 

Whereupon, 

VIRGINIA LOZADA 

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was called as a witness by Counsel for the 

Complainant and, after having been duly sworn, 

was examined and testified as follows: 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

State your full name for the record and spell 

your first and last name. 

DR. SELIG: Your Honor, as I --

THE WITNESS: Virginia Lozada --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Hold on. Hold on. 

The reason being -- I know this sounds a 

little arcane -- she hears everything. So if 

I'm talking and you're talking it's like both 

of your kids talking to you at the same time. 

Or in my case your mother and your 

wife talking to you at the same time. 

DR. SELIG: I understand. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okav. And I'm not 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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trying to be technical. But I've done enough 

hearings to know that it just drives her 

crazy. That' s why she has gray hair. You 

really think it's blonde, but it's gray hair 

from people that talk over on e another. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. Spell 

your first and last name. 

THE WITNESS: Virginia Lozada, VI-R-G-I-N-I-A L-0-Z-A-D-A. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: It is V, as in 

Victor? 

THE WITNESS; L-O-Z, as in zebra -

JUDGE GOODWIN: Z, okay. 

THE WITNESS: A-D-A. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

MR. RALEY: Just one quick note, 

Your Honor. Just in order to expedite the 

entry of exhibits, I previously marked our 

exhibits as A dash --

JUDGE GOODWIN: And, as long as --

Doctor, the protocol is normally in the course 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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of a trial Counsel would give out, proffer an 

exhibic, hand you a copy and approach and give 

me a copy. 

What some lawyers do is give you a 

packet of all the exhibits they are going to 

introduce, you know, 

DR. SELIG: Your Honor, this 

format -- isn't there any way we could do the 

openings first? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry, I 

forgot to do that. Mr. Raley, do you have an 

opening? 

MR. RALEY: I do have an opening, 

Your Honor, I would like to --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, go ahead. 

MR. RALEY: Your Honor, the 

Federal Aviation Administration will 

demonstrate, through the evidence and 

testimony presented, that Respondent, M&R 

Helicopters, Incorporated violated the Federal 

Aviation regulations when it failed to ensure 

that a mechanic who performed work on its 

(202} 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D C. 20005-3701 www nealrgross com 
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aircraft v;as covered under random drug and 

alcohol testing programs as required under the 

regulations contained in 14 CFR part 121, 

appendices I and J, which have since been 

recodified as 14 CFR part 120. 

'Respondent was selected for an 

inspection of its com.pliance with DOT required 

drug and alcohol testing regulations. During 

this inspection it was discovered that work 

performed on Respondent's aircraft, which was 

listed on Respondent's part 13 5 Operation 

Specifications, by an employee who was not 

covered by either Respondent's drug or alcohol 

programs or the; employee's own drug or alcohol 

programs. 

Ms. Lozada, the Eastern Center 

Manager for Compliance and Enforcement, will 

testify that, as a part 119 certificate holder 

wich operations specifications authorizing 

part 13 5 operations, Respondent was required 

to maintain DOT required drug and alcohol 

testing program. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.corn 
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And that Respondent certified in 

2 its operations specifications that it would 

3 comply with the DOT required drug and alcohol 

4 testing regulations. 

5 Ms. Lozada will testify that 

5 during an inspection of Respondent's DOT 

7 required drug and alcohol testing programs, an 

8 FAA inspector discovered that Respondent 

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10 maintenance on an aircraft listed on 

11 Respondent's operations specifications. 

12 And that Mr. Baker was on neither 

13 Respondent's nor his own drug testing program 

14 -- drug or alcohol testing program. 

15 Ms. Lozada will also testify that 

16 records obtained, during the inspection, 

17 indicated that Respondent had conducted part 

18 13 5 flights with the helicopter which was 

19 listed on Respondent's op specs. 

2 0 Amy Frankel, Field Operations 

21 Branch Manager, Office of Aerospace Medicine, 

22 Federal Aviation Administration, will testify 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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that she reviewed the enforcement 

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investigative report and noted that 

Respondent's operation spedfications 

subjected it to complying with the DOT 

required drug and alcohol testing regulations . 

And that Respondent was not in 

compliance with those regulations because Mr. 

Baker was not subject to random drug and 

alcohol testing under Respondent's program or 

his own program, when he performed safetysensitiv^e work for Respondent on its aircraft. 

She will testify that Respondent 

had an active part 119 certificate with 

operations specifications authorizing part 135 

operations, because -Respondent had commenced 

conducting part 135 flights, and was therefore 

recjuired to adhere to the drug and alcohol 

testing regulations in accordance with the 

part 135 requirements. 

She will also testify that she 

reviewed the violations and recommended the 

sanction in accordance with FAA order 2153 (b) , 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C 20005-3701 www. nea If gross com 
which provides sanction quidance in 

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Based on these violations, at the 

close of this hearing the acting administrator 

will ask that you uphold the civil penalty of 

4,400 dollars as proposed in the second 

amended complaint. Thank you. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. 

Doctor, did you want to do an opening now or 

are you going to reserve? 

DR. SELIG: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You have the right 

to argue now. You also have a right to wait 

initil your part of the case. 

Now, arguing is argument, it is 

not the tim.e to present evidence, all right? 

DR. SELIG: I wanted to -- would 

it be easier for me to present the evidence 

along with my opening? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, an opening 

statement is the time you give an overview of 

your case . The time to present exhibits is 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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once the FAA rests. Okay? 

DR. SELIG:' All right. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And, I know I 

sound redundant . But you have a very soft 

voice. So please don't take it personally if 

I ask you to speak up. 

DR. SELIG: I --

JUDGE GOODWIN: I do the same 

thing to my wife. 

DR. SELIG: It will get louder and 

faster. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Thank 

you, please. So do you want to give your 

opening now or you want to reserve? 

DR. SELIG: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

DR. SELIG: The subject citation 

arises as a hypothetical violation of part 121 

I and J of the Drug and Alcohol Abatement 

regulations that have been a moving target, 

subsequently revised two times, were located 

at various links on unreferenced websites 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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during a time when the Department of 

Transportat ion was attempting to affect 

changes to improve public safety and lessen 

the administrative burdens on the regulated 

public. 

It was also during the time when 

the FAA was developing the information 

management system. M&R Helicopters got caught 

in this crossfire of the FAA ruling out 

significant amendments to these regulations 

without instituting a reasonable notification 

process to confirm such changes ever occurred 

or confirm discovery, contrary to notification 

procedures required for all other parts of the 

compliance statement and the operational 

specifications. 

This alleged violated regulation 

was never listed, required to be signed off 

after changes occurred within the operation 

specifications and the compliance statement by 

the Respondent. 

Thez~e were never any methods of 

^202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. nea I rgross. com 
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compliance referenced in compliance statement 

or the operation specifications. 

The subject citation was launched 

when Ms. Latonya Williams rushed to judgement 

vyithout giving proper notice to remedy or 

cure, but went directly to issue a citation 

based solely on conjecture that A&P mechanic 

Edward Baker was not on any approved drug and 

alcohol abatement program when he performed 

safety-sensitive functions according to 

inspector statement 1-09 which I have here, 

which basically says that --

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, we'11 get 

into the evidence at the proper time. 

DR. SELIG: Okay. Ms. Williams' 

inaccurate misnomer was soon disproved when it 

was shown that Mr. Baker was always and 

continuously on a program under his primary 

full- time employer Air Methods Corporation. 

Ms. Williams claimed that Mr. 

Baker was considered an employee of M&R 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www nealrgross.com 
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Helicopters when, in fact, he only worked 

freelance two days out of every two year 

period even though he was employed full time 

for Air Methods Corporation. 

The new regulation, that no one 

was informed of, required Mr. Baker to be on 

redundant drug and alcohol programs for Air 

Methods and M&R Helicopters. 

The hypothetical citation was 

aggressively pursued despite that M&R 

Helicopters had suspended its operations, was 

shut down since June of 2007 . 

Prior to the citation, the cited 

violation of July 2009, M&R was undeniably 

non-operational. The financials demonstrated 

that the company was operating at a loss, 

underwent a corporate name change to close its 

bank accounts, was unauthorized to perform 

part 13 5 flights because there was no 

certified pilot two years prior to the cited 

violation period, and has not been operational 

since. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. DC. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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The frivolous citation was 

aggressively pursued despite its operational 

moratorium of M&R's operations and business 

functions. 

As a result of the restructuring, 

the name change in year 2008 -- and I have an 

exhibit for that as well -- the operational 

specifications or compliance statements were 

not current and needed to be revised and 

updated to affect these changes. 

The safety section function of 

July 24, 2008, a main rotor track and balance 

that was cited for violation was redone and 

repeated on Mr. Baker, when Mr. Baker was on 

M&R's drug program and no flights v;ere flown 

in the interim. 

So there was no risk to the 

public. Confirming .that no operations were 

performed, the company operated at a financial 

loss since 2006, as disclosed from the 

company's tax returns, which were submitted. 

M5:R Helicopters on July 21st, 2009 

(202; 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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was audited by FAA officers Latonya Williams 

and Kimberley Pew for the initial scheduled 

inspection at the joint office of Lifeline 

Cardiology and MScR Helicopters. 

On July 23rd, 2009 Ms. Williams 

returned alone to the inspection of M&R's drug 

records. Ms. Williams was agitated during 

that non-accompanied visit. 

And her behavior was offensive and 

Linprofessional throughout the inspection and 

an AVR customer complaint was filed, in that 

regard. 

Ms. Williams alleged that the 

Respondent was non-compliant when in fact 

there were no safety issues involved, patterns 

of intentional non-compliance since the 

company suspended operations two years prior 

and experiencing a negative cash flow. 

Ms. Williams initially assumed 

that Mr. Baker was not covered by any FAA drug 

testing program and refused to deviate from 

that fact. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE , N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. nea I rgross com 
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Ms. Williams also disclosed that 

chere was a policy change that occurred in 

February of 2004 requiring all A&P mechanics 

to be on a company specific drug and alcohol 

program. 

Ms. Williams did not provide 

training, note the location of specific 

details referencing this policy change, 

compliance procedures, and notification system 

that needed to be put in place, similar to the 

FAA operations maintenance and aviation 

protocols. 

Ms . Will iams had the option to 

train the Respondent to methods of compliance 

to the new regulation, issue a letter of 

correction or a letter of warning. 

But, instead, she rushed right to 

a citation. These other two prior procedures 

are listed in the audit procedures that she 

was to follow. 

A year later, on July 23rd, 

Respondent was served with a notice of 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE,, N.W 

WASHINGTON, D C 20005-3701 www neairgross.com 
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proposed civil penalty citing a fine of 5,400 

dollars from Ms . Floraponto, despite the 

company was already in moratorium since June 

2007, a name changer occurred in 2008 and the 

compliance statement was not current, making 

the certificate essentially inactive. 

On August 6th Respondent sent a 

letter to Ms. Floraponto detailing the 

statements of fact, evidence and request for 

an informal hearing. On October 1st the 

informal hearing conference was held before 

manager -- Mr. Frankel -- I don't know if that 

was Amy Frankel. 

It was you, oh. They told me it 

was Mr. Frankel. Mr. Raley and his assistant 

Ms. Floraponto. On October 21st, 2010 

Respondent was served with final notice of 

proposed penalty for a fine of 5,400 dollars, 

and presented with an incomplete redacted 

copies of enforcement investigation report. 

It did not include updated 

information requested by FAA Inspector Chet 

(20?) 234-4-133 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C 20005-3701 www nealrgross.com 
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Stevenson or the confirmation of employment by 

Air Methods and that Mr. Baker was constantly 

enrolled in a drug and alcohol program. 

The Complaint was amended twice. 

Ms. Floraponto was made aware of a statute of 

limitations issue and the complaint was then 

recraf ted from November 2nd, 2007 to July 

24th, 2008 then falling one day within the 

statute of limitations. 

On December 10th, 2010 an amended 

complaint reduced the fine to 4,400 dollars. 

On March 25th, 2011 a pre-trial teleconference 

was held with Chief Administrative Judge 

Ronney Yoder. 

The following key points were made 

at that --

MR. RALEY: Objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig? 

DR. SELIG: Yes? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: The Court won't 

consider any discussions pursuant to 

settlement conferences. So, whether you did 

(202) 23-(-J433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE . N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-370^ www nealrgross com 
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or did not have a pre-hearing conference with 

anybody or if you had a settlement conference 

with the FAA, under numerous rules and case 

law the Court won't consider it. So I don't 

want to hear about that. 

DR. SELIG: I'm only quoting the 

transcript, that's all. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I don't care. I 

don't want to hear about it. It's not proper 

evidence before the Court. Okay? 

Now, you've said that there was a 

pre-hearing conference. Let's get on to the 

next issue. 

DR. SELIG: Can I --

JUDGE GOODWIN: The same would 

apply to the FA.z^. 

DR. SELIG: Okay, so can I mention 

points in that transcript? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: No . The reason 

is, the case law is clear. If there is a prehearing settlement conference or a settlement 

conference that is not proper evidence before 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE , N.W 

WASHINGTON, DC. 20005-3701 www. nea I rgross com 
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a court. 

And the reason, the philosophy 

behind that is the law encourages parties to 

try to resolve cases. And, if evidence and 

testimony presented at a pre-hearing 

conference or a settlement conference were 

presented in a subsequent trial, it would have 

a chilling effect on the parties' ability to 

attempt to settle something. 

So there's hundreds of cases on 

the point. The fact that -- the only thing --

and I'm not going to give any weight to the 

fact you did or didn't have ,a pre-hearing 

conference. So let's move on to the next 

subj ect. 

DR. SELIG: Okay. My first 

argument is a statement by Complainant, was 

that M&R at all times relevant was authorized 

to conduct part 13 5 operations under its 

certificate. 

That's a major premise and it has 

come up several times. The statement made by 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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them is manifestly incorrect and in error. 

In order to be authorized to 

conduct or fly in operations several 

conditions must be met. 

First , th e operation s 

specifications and compliance statements have 

to be updated with confirmatory signatures. 

This was not the case with M&R, particularly 

in regard to the drug program. 

The last signed off statement was 

January 2004. And I have that, my 449-a sheet 

shows that the agreed upon drug and alcohol 

regulations were backdated before the change 

in the regulations occurred in February of 

2004 . 

The company also underwent the 

corporation change making the operations 

specifications invalid. In order to conduct 

135 operations the pilot needs to comply with 

the requirements and the regulations. 

The pilot, by the way, wa s me, 

Your Honor. Have the experience level, 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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undergo yearly recurrence training, meet the 

insurance regulations, as well as undergo a 

yearly oral and flight examination by an FAA 

examiner. 

None of these procedures were in 

place. Therefore, M&R was not authorized to 

conduct 135 operations since June of 2007. 

Respondent explained to Ms. 

Williams that MSLR was unauthorized to perform 

these operations due to human factors, 

extenuating circumstances impacting the single 

pilot operator, such as a high conflict, 

protracted divorce, custody litigation, 

liability issues, along with the 

responsibilities to the community of his solo 

private practice cardiology, as well a s the 

inspector was unavailable to perform a flight 

exam due to medical leave. 

M&LR' S inspector, Mr. Alotta, 

subsequently took early retirement. FAR 

119 . 69 provides a long list of requirements 

for operations and states that each 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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certificate holder must have sufficient 

qualified management and technical personnel 

to ensure the safety of its operations. 

Respondent could not carry out the 

other functions in the company as director of 

operations, as maintenance coordinator, for 

which he bears all liabilities, legal and 

financial. 

The operations inspector Frank 

Alotta was aware of the suspended operation of 

M&R by his letter of June 19, 2007 for not 

having a pi lot. 

And that is another one of my 

exhibits. Complainant erred by asserting that 

exposure and liability for a violation is 

warranted based solely on possessing an 

operations specifications and a listed 

cert i ficate. 

Why the certificate was no listed 

as inactive when the FAA inspections person 

didn't know, was just an error, but occurred 

in the process . 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIEJERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE . N.W 

WASHINGTON. DC. 20005-3701 www. nealrgross.com 
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How could an operation be active 

or authorized if it was unable to carry out 

operations because of no pilot? M&R ceased 

under the name, which was changed September 

2008 . 

I have an exhibit for that through 

the Department of Commerce in Pennsylvania 

that should have rendered the complaint mute. 

All financials were restructured 

and terminated under the M&R name. The 

discussion came up when is actually the issue 

-- what is the difference between operators 

not engaged in operations or in theory 

authorized to engage in operations, which 

brings up the matter of David Eberson in North 

Valley Helicopters. 

The Court ruled that violation is 

invalid based purely on the mere possession of 

a certificate that operations needed to be 

conducted during the violation period in order 

for a violation to have merits. 

Complainant's flawed argument is 

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that not performing operations prior to 

commencing drug alcohol program is somehow 

different than not conducting operations 

during a period of shut down or suspension 

when the Agency saw the violation, even though 

the concept is identical. 

On inspection of Mr. Eberson's 

operating specifications, no dru g progra m of 

any kind was ever in place either by the 

primary employer or his own. 

The case was still dismissed. The 

commonality between the Eberson case and M&R' s 

case, is that no operations were conducted 

during the relevant period, or up to this day, 

therefore no risk or harm was presented to the 

public. 

The primary premise, that 

initiated the violation, v;as that Mr. Baker 

was not on any program. This was a false 

assLimption and proven that M&R, at all times, 

did have its own drug program, implemented 

that program, for those not any approved 

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program, and in accordance to the operational 

specifications, and maintenance inspector's 

knowledge, advice, and in good faith. 

Furthermore, regulation 13 5.241, 

makes reference to flight crew members, 

requirements pertaining to operations, which 

means flights, under this part. 

Again, M&R was not conducting 

operations. Regulation 135.255, before it was 

removed, along with 135.251 --

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

This is all argument. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I know. Doctor, 

you have a good argument but what you are 

doing is arguing the facts. What I'm going to 

ask you to do is to try to confine the 

discussion to what you are doing. 

I'm going to allow you a little 

lat itude, but - -

DR. SELIG: Yes. I probably have 

another seven minutes. Is there any way I can 

just get this into the record? 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: If you want to 

submit it, that would be fine. You can submit 

it as an exhibit, if you want. Or you can 

make it a part of your - -

What you are doing is arguing the 

law, but right now there is no evidence, there 

is no testim.ony, --

DR. SELIG: Right. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- but there is no 

evidence, and there is no testimony, as of 

this minute, that is why we are here. 

What you are trying to do is argue 

things that are not in evidence yet. Once it 

is in evidence, that would probably be an 

appropriate brief to submit, arguing what you 

think the evidence shows. 

I don' t want to tell you how to 

try your case, and I want to give you the 

opportunity to say anything you want to say, 

and present any evidence that you want to. 

But at this point, what you are 

telling me is particularly helpful. But if 

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you want to continue to do so --

DR. SELIG: All right. T would 

like CO, at least, get it on the record. I 

will present my evidence by the way of 

test imony. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Your objection is 

noted, counsel. 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor. 

DR. SELIG: So regulation 235 . 255, 

before it was removed from, along with the 

other regulation, contains reference to part 

121J, testing for alcohol. 

Referring to the certificate 

holder, and operator. The use of the 

conjunction, and, indicates that the 

regulation only applies if the company is not 

just a certificate holder, but an operator. 

In accordance with the Eberson 

case, which still remains a litmus test for 

this case law, may not be cited for violations 

occurring during a period in time when there 

were n o operations, or the operator didn't 

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actually fly part 135 flights. 

Since M&R was in moratorium, did 

not have a pilot, did not fly, and was 

authorized -- not authorized to fly, part 135, 

required no revisions, during the relevant 

period, the citation is invalid and frivolous. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me allow the 

witness to step down, I should have done that 

earlier. If you want to go outside the 

courtroom., but you are admonished not to 

discuss your testimony. 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

go ahead. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry, doctor, 

DR, SELIG: More recent case law 

also supports this concept, in the matter of 

helicopter flight, FAA order number 2 011-6 . 

In this case FAR 135.25(b) requires that a 

certificate holder have exclusive use of, at 

least, one aircraft, that meets requirements 

for at least one kind of operation, authorized 

in Its operation specifications. 

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The FAA did prove the helicopter 

flight did not have exclusive use of the only 

aircraft listed on its operations, but it did 

no flights, it conducted no operations during 

the referenced period. 

The Honorable Judge further stated 

that it makes no sense to enforce this 

requirement, by imposing a civil penalty, 

unless there is evidence, that the certificate 

holder continued to operate, during the time 

period that it did not have exclusive use of, 

at least, one aircraft. 

With foregone reasons the 

Administrative Judge's decision was reversed, 

and no civil penalty was assessed. The 

regulations were not properly listed, notice 

of regulatory changes never provided, and the 

regulations were, constantly, under revision, 

and recodified. 

Ms. Williams disclosed that there 

was a policy change that occurred in February 

of 2004 requiring all A&P mechanics to be on 

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a company specific drug and alcohol program. 

M&R was not notified, or aware, of 

this regulation change. Even more unsettling, 

the FAA operations inspector, Frank Alotta, 

and the maintenance inspector, Gerri Herringer 

for M&R, were also not aware of these major 

regulatory changes that the FAA later adopted. 

It was, therefore, unable to 

inform M&R of this change, for years. These 

FAA officers frequently inspected the M&R 

aircraft, conveniently located at the Knee 

High Valley International Airport, and across 

the street from the Allentown flight 

districts, standards district's office. 

In fact none of the management 

personnel, including Mr. Wineberg who is the 

manager of the Allentown District, were 

informed of this regulation change during this 

period. 

Similarly, in April of 2004, after 

various revisions to appendices I and J, M&R 

underwent a drug and alcohol program 

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inspection by FAA drug abatement officer 

Vincent Roots, and no significant 

discrepancies were cited. 

Mr. Roots did not inform M&R of a 

substantive regulation amendment that went 

into effect, mandating drug and alcohol 

testing under an employer's program, that 

occurred three months earlier. 

It was apparent that the important 

change was not disseminated to their own inhouse FAA abatement personnel, even though the 

FAA considered this 2004 amendment a 

substantial, substantive regulatory change. 

Hence I and J by Complainant's was 

never clearly referenced, nor disclosed in the 

Respondent's signed operations specifications, 

or compliance statements. 

These regulations are, thereby, 

hidden, omitted, concealed, and compliance 

impossible. Amendment 121-302 specifically 

states that the CFR was modified, due to the 

need to clarify the regulatory language, since 

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it lacked clarity, as stated by the FAA. 

Document RIN-221.20-AH14 states 

that as a result of numerous years of 

experience, inspecting the aviation industry 

of anti-drug and alcohol misuse prevention 

program, the FAA is clarifying regulatory 

language, increasing consistency between antidrug and alcohol misuse prevention program 

regulations, where possible. 

And eliminating regulatory 

provisions that are no longer appropriate. 

The effect of these changes is to improve 

safety, and lessen administrative burdens on 

the regulated public. 

How can the Agency hold an 

operator to a regulatory standard that was 

vague and ambiguous, thus necessitating a 

substantial regulatory amendment for clarity? 

The full text of numerous 

revisions was never clearly written, or ever 

incorporated in the compliance statement of 

operations specifications. 

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If a regulation is material, or 

substantive, it would require reasonable 

standard notice, communication, or formal 

notice for that material change. 

Due to the depth of the Federal 

Registry, it would be impossible for a lay 

person to monitor immaterial changes that are 

implemented, therefore penalizing Respondent 

for immaterial change, that modified operation 

requirements is procedurally inconsistent with 

a forthright notification process that is in 

place for all other chapters of the 

operat ional specifications. 

To view hundreds of pages of text, 

on remote websites, to find, compare, and then 

determine if a substantive change in a single 

isolated regulation had occurred, is an 

unreasonable burden, and encourages error, 

rather than compliance. 

It was never stating where the 

exact source location of these hidden fine 

poinc regulations are to be located, or at 

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what intervals to carry out these tedious, 

random, hit' and miss search exercise that is 

prone to misinterpretation and error. 

Therefore it is impossible to ever 

be completely compliant, at any point in time, 

if a regulation is changed, updated, without 

notification or training, as is clearly 

evidenced by the history of the FAA' s own 

officers, who were not properly informed of 

their own regulation changes. 

Without proper communication to 

the contrary, the Respondent can only expect 

the procedures for compliance to follow suit 

when the other procedures utilized in the 

compliance and the operation specifications in 

the compliance statement. 

Ms. Williams informed Respondent 

that the regulation changes occurred in 

February of 2004, but the operational 

specifications, A44 9, were confirmed and 

signed off on January 4th, 2004. 

The 2004 changes were major, 

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substantive changes, for which printed 

notification and signed conformation would 

have been standard. 

Mr. Henenger, in the Allentwon 

District said the only requirement for 

compl lance was a copy of Mr. Baker' s A&P 

license, and evidence of Mr. Baker's 

employment drug program by Helicopters, Inc. 

before he commenced working on these aircraft. 

I have that as evidence, which was 

in my consortium notebook, and Ms. Williams 

should have reviewed. 

Complainant's attest that change 

in the regulations were promulgated, and 

amended by notice, in accordance with the 

Administration Procedures Act, and through the 

Federal Registry publication of Final Rule, 

even when no notice had occurred. 

Even if this were to be true, the 

FAA amended the revision, it states that the 

mandated program will be tracked in the FAA's 

operat ion specifications. 

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This was never done. An updated 

of Respondent's OpSpecs, again, occurred in 

2009. However, Che FAA officials did not make 

mention of these important statutory changes. 

When questioned about it, they 

were unaware of the change. If M&R was 

properly notified, of this change, the issue 

would have been immediately remedied, and M.&R 

existing and current drug program updated. 

Assuming argumento, even if the 

other fatal defects were not in place, this 

scenario of no one being informed, and knowing 

of the regulation changes, only incurs a 

potential violation, and represents 

entrapment, rather than a forthright 

notification procedure, that would encourage 

compliance and safety. 

It would be reasonable to hold the 

Respondent - - it is unreasonable to hold the 

Respondent to a higher standard, or a double 

standard, that their own FAA operations, and 

drug inspection officers who, themselves, did 

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not know, or inform M&R of the regulation 

change. 

Ms. Williams played fast and loose 

with Respondent, by asserting that the 

Respondent was supposed to update himself by 

assessing the Federal Registry. 

The v.'ebsite was non-existent in 

2004. Order 8900.1, which initiated the 

flight standards information system, was 

enacted in September 12th, 2007, when the 

alleged violation occurred in 2008, the FAA 

website was in its primitive stages, 

incomplete, and not yet populated. 

There w£is no notice that this 

website was even in existence. The FAA 

website v;as -- even more recently had been 

difficult to navigate. 

And the 2004 amendment of Appendix 

I and J, were difficult to find, therein still 

not provided, and forthright notification 

procedure. 

The standard process, this 

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Standard process is contrary to the routine 

protocol followed by all the other parts of 

the operational specifications. 

Which included a regular 

notification procedure. This procedure, that 

the FAA used for years, was -- it presented 

updated, rewritten, and reprinted operation 

specifications revision, and physically 

replaced pages, and subsequent re-sign off for 

confirmation of each one of these pages, that 

the operator was aware of'these changes, and 

that the operator agrees to the changes. 

It is, therefore, not proper, or 

reasonable, to hold M&R responsible for 

changes that no one was aware of, not 

formally, or otherwise notified, or signed off 

on. 

Regulations 135.251, and 135.255 

as written, in the compliance statement, and 

confirmed by the Respondent, does not 

inherently state that M&R must test each 

employee who performs safety-sensitive 

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Operations, and I have that as an exhibit. 

It states, empirically, that any 

person conducting safety-sensitive functions, 

must be covered by an FAA approved drug and 

alcohol program. 

This individual referred to did 

comply with a drug and alcohol testing 

regulations by the full-time employers. 

It was discovered that the two 

regulations, that the Agency was violating 

Respondent for, the 251 and the 2 55, were so 

confusing, inconsistent, contradictory, and 

problematic, that the FAA rulemakers decided 

to remove, reverse, revise, relocate, recodify 

them, in July of 2009, one year before the 

violation was issued. 

Apparently this was all 

unbeknownst by the Complainants. The 

following statement was made concerning this 

matter, by the FAA. 

The FAA is working on a major 

revision of its drug and alcohol testing 

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regulations, given the complexity of that 

revision, and the time it will take to 

complete the rulemaking process, the FAA has 

concluded, that in the interim, it makes sense 

to pull the existing regulations. 

When Respondent went to the FAA 

website to view these regulations, it stated 

removed, and reserved, nothing more. There 

was no hyper text link that would refer the 

investigator for further information, or to a 

remote website, that was available, until 

recently. 

And I have an exhibit that shows 

that. The now-working link, shows 

recodification, as Mr. Raley said, of 135 to 

251, to 120.35, and 135.255, to 120.39. 

Adding new meaning to the moving 

target, and secret nature of these 

regulations. Now, the compliance with this 

regulation, even appears dependent on whether 

or not a computer shifting, and variable 

website link is operating correctly or not. 

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As it is common law, and in accord 

with standard practices in administrative law, 

in the interpretation of language, of 

regulations, where doubt exists as to the 

intent of the meaning of the language written, 

and enacted by a governing party, the language 

shall be interpreted in favor of the party, 

and against any implied extension of 

discretion. 

The Complainants have taken 

aggressive, perhaps frivolous course of action 

to pursue, at best, a hypothetical violation 

for a regulation that was removed, and 

rescinded in its entirety, one year before 

Complainant's submitted their complaint. 

Appa r en 11 y with the on 1 y intent 

but to seek monies from Respondent, at any 

cost to the Agency, even if those legal costs 

far exceeded the fine amount. 

These regulations remain a moving 

target, not properly disclosed, scattered in 

different locations, not clearly 

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interpretable, could not be understood by 

reasonable minds, bound by decent society. 

And, in this case, not even by MScR 

FAA inspectors, the local FSDO, or the FAA 

official, Vincent Roots the prior drug and 

alcohol audit. It was then deemed 

problematic, by the FAA rulemakers, v/ho are 

rewriting the regulations, thereby holding M&R 

again, to a higher standard, or a double 

standard, than their own officials. 

Operational specification currency 

IS also recjuired to curtail non-compliance by 

agents and operators, as well as a grace 

period for compliance. 

In 2011 the FAA did finally 

develop a notification system that was 

reasonable, and it made further changes, 

identifying that this was problematic, there 

was problematic communication and 

notification, that the drug and alcohol 

program has now enacted a new procedure, by 

mailing to participants, request for website 

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interaction, and dates for which compliance 

must be completed, very reasonable method. 

In accordance with the doctrine of 

Equitable tolling and mutuality, this 

Respondent cannot be held liable for a changed 

regulation that he was not informed of, was 

unable to discover, until after the change 

occurred. 

This is the jurisprudence, and the 

reason why the changed sections of the 

operational specifications are revised 

periodically, and signed off by the affected 

parties, to confirm the stuff, and 

understanding of those changes. 

It was stated that Mr. Baker is 

not, and has never been, an employee of MScR 

Helicopters, he was a moonlighter. 

Complainant cited, in their pre-trial brief, 

part 121 appendix 1, allowed employers to use 

individuals who performed safety-sensitive 

functions, while being included in the drug 

program of another emp.loyer. 

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This was changed in July 13th, 

2009, when appendices I and J were recodified. 

The relative violation period, therefore, 

allowed the use of individuals on a primary 

employer's program. 

The primary premise for the 

violation of this case rests on the assumption 

that Mr. Baker was not on any drug and alcohol 

testing program, and performing safetysensitive operations on the M&R aircraft. 

Mr. Baker was, and always was, had 

been a moonlighter freelancer for his work he 

did on MScR's aircraft, that occurred one day 

out of every two year period. 

Mr. Baker was not a contract 

employee with MSLR , he had no contract, he did 

not work regularly for M&R, he did not receive 

regular paychecks, he was not provided health 

insurance, he was not under the control of 

M&R, and for how the work was to be done. 

Rather he worked independently, on 

his own accord, not under the direct control 

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of M&R, as is common law test. He v;as not 

subj ect to disciplinary action. 

Mr. Baker was employed full-time 

by a national company, Aerometrics, who 

provided him a weekly paycheck, for 4 0 hours 

a v;eek, received health care benefits, as part 

of the union for that company. 

He was, always, on the random drug 

and alcohol program without interruption, at 

any point, by that primary employer, and he 

never tested positive. 

In addition Mr. Baker was in the 

National Guard alcohol program, in his 

capacity as a pilot and an A&P. 

All pertinent alleged violations, 

in 2008, particularly part 121 I and J, 

pertain to employee's under contract. Mr. 

Baker was not . He does not include or mention 

provisions, it does not include provisions, or 

exclusions, for non-contract, free-lance, or 

moonlighters. 

The question was asked, by the 

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attorney, if there is -- if it is required to 

have contact between - - contract between a 

company and a third party. She responded nonexistent . 

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Sustained. 

DR. SELIG: Okay. The bottom line 

is that the regulation is about a contract 

with an employer is so confusing, that the 

Judge presiding over the hearing, or the 

attorney issuing the violation, it was so 

confusing to them, how could they expect a 

layperson to understand it? 

So in conclusion, the proposed 

hypothetical violation, including any 

judgement, is not warranted, since there were 

no safety issues involved, during the period 

M&R had suspended operations, was in 

moratorium, was' unauthorized to fly, or 

conduct operations, and there were problems 

with the notification systems of these moving 

target violations. 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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The company had restructured, 

required compliance statement revisions, had 

financials in the negative, and would have 

made the appropriate changes, if only 

Respondent was properly informed of these 

changes. 

In light of these mitigating, 

compelling circumstances. Your Honor, I submit 

that the case be quashed, stricken, and 

dismissed. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything else, 

doctor, before we take testimony? 

DR. SELIG: Excuse me? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: It is 10:20, we 

are going to take a 15 minute break. When we 

come back on the record Mr. Raley, please have 

your witness up here. 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. We are 

off che record. 

(Whereupon, the above-entitled 

matter went off the record at 

(202) 234-4433 

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10:20 a.m. and went back on the 

record at 10:39 a.m.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: On the record. 

Mr. Raley, your witness has been sworn, 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor. 

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Good morning, Ms. Lozada. Could 

you please state and spell your name for the 

record? 

A Virginia Lozada, V as in Victor, 

I-R-G-I-N-I-A, L, as in Larry, 0-Z as in 

zebra, A-D, as in dog, A. 

Q Ms. Lozada, are you currently 

employed? 

A 

Q 

A 

Yes. 

With whom? 

T h e Federa l Aviatio n 

Administra t ion. 

Q And what is your job title , a t th e 

Federal Aviation Administration? 

A I am the easter n drug and alcoho l 

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compliance and enforcement center manager. 

Q What duties are a part of that 

job? 

A review and approve all 

inspection related documents. I supervise the 

inspectors, I assign inspection activities. 

Q How long have you been in that 

position? 

A As a center manager, since 2007. 

0 Prior to 2007 what was your 

employment ? 

A I have worked with the FAA since 

2000, I started as an inspector, was promoted 

to team coordinator, where I reviewed 

inspection related activities, and I am 

currently the center manager. 

2000? 

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A 

Since, I'm sorry, was that since 

Since 2000. 

Q During that period, from 2 000 

until today, has that all been with the drug 

abatement division? 

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A All of it. 

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Q Prior to 2000 where were you 

employed? 

A In the United States Customs 

Service. 

0 And what was the job that you held 

at the United States Customs Service? 

A I was a customs inspector, I 

conducted inspections and investigations for 

violations of customs regulations. 

Q How long were you employed there? 

A Since 1995 to 2000. 

Q I'd like to talk about the 

inspections that the drug abatement division 

does, generally. What type of inspections 

occurred, that the drug abatement division 

conducts? 

A We inspect operators for 

compliance with the drug and alcohol testing 

regulat ions. 

Q And who is subject to these 

inspect ions? 

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A All Part 135 certificate holders 

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that are authorized to conduct 13 5, 121 

operations. 

Q Who conducts these inspections? 

A Our inspectors, drug and alcohol 

compliance and enforcement inspections. 

Q Do the flight standards inspectors 

conduct these inspections? 

A No. 

Q How are the inspections scheduled? 

A We schedule them, they go out 

every other -week, 50 percent of their time is 

traveling. 

Q How is it determined that a 

certain operator would be inspected? 

A We have - - we do it based on our 

compliance strategic targeting monitoring 

system. It is -- it is mainly done in our 

headquarters division, it is not done at the 

field level. 

Q Where do the inspections occur? 

A All over the country. 

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Q With regard to a specific 

operator, where do they occur? 

A I'm not quite --

Q Are the inspections held at 

airports, at the operator -- is the --

A Mainly at the operators. 

Q And what do the FAA drug abatement 

inspectors do during the scheduled 

inspect ions? 

A We inspect the drug and alcohol 

program records, including payroll, hire 

documents, work records, performance records, 

such as flight OPS or maintenance records. 

Anything related to the drug and alcohol 

program. 

Q What, if anything, do they do, 

following an inspection? 

A We write up the report of 

inspection, we send out letters of 

investigation. After we receive a response to 

the letter of investigation we determine how 

we handle the case. 

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We staff -- the inspectors usually 

staff the case. And what I mean by staff is 

we discuss -- they discuss the case with their 

team coordinator, and center managers, and we 

decide, at that point, how we are going to 

proceed with the case. 

And then, at that point, we 

continue the process, as discussed. 

Q Do all inspections result in an 

letter of investigation being issued? 

A A letter of investigation 

basically gives the operator, it notes the 

Items that were discovered during the 

inspection, and gives the operator an 

opportunity to provide a response. 

0 1/d like to now direct your 

attention to the inspection that we are here 

for today. 

Are you familiar with the 2009 

inspection of the Respondent? 

A Yes. 

Q VJhy was Respondent subjec t to drug 

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abatement inspect ion? 

A Because he is a 119 certificate 

holder, and authorized to conduct 135 

operations. 

0 I'd like to show what is being 

•marked as Complainant's exhibit A-1. 

(Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Complainant Exhibit No. A-1 for 

identification.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Do you recognize this document? 

A Yes. 

Q What is this document? 

A This is the operations 

specifications paragraph AOOl, which basically 

authorizes the 199 certificate holder, named 

herein, to conduct operations as a 135 Air 

Carrier. 

Q 

document? 

A 

What certificate number is on this 

It is Mike, Romeo, 3, Alpha, 02 0 

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0 Was Respondent authorized to 

conduct Part 13 5 operations? 

A Yes. 

Q Is this document kept in the 

normal course of business at the FAA? 

A Yes . 

MR. RALEY: At this time I would 

like to move that Complainant's A-1 be 

admitted into evidence. Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection? 

DR. SELIG: I do have objection. 

And my obj ection is that my, that my 

operations was not authorized to perform 135 

flights, without an approved, certified pilot . 

So this is an irrelevant document, 

under the circumstances, because my Part 135 

was not put in suspended mode, is not my 

problem. My evidence shows that my operations 

inspector did know that T could not, and was 

not authorized to perform operations. 

And I'd 1 ike to proffer - - so I 

(202) 23-]^^33 

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object, and I would like this to be dedacted 

out of the record. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. Just, 

mechanically, I want to let you know that what 

I do, when I get the original exhibit, is I 

write ID, and when it is admitted I line 

through my ID, and I put the date, so the date 

that it IS admitted. 

So when you see these, on the 

record, you will see ID and then the date. 

And I do that, it is a double check, a triple 

check'. The objection is overruled. 

MR. RALEY: Your Honor, is the 

docLiment moved into evidence? 

'JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry, exhibit 

A-1 for identification is received into 

evidence as Agency A-1. 

{The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Complainant 

Exhibit A-1 was admitted in 

evidence.) 

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Q Ms. Lozada, I would 1 ike to show 

you what is now being marked as Complainant's 

exhibit A~2. 

[Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Complainant Exhibit No. 2 for 

identification.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Do you recognize this document? 

A Yes . 

Q What is this document? 

A This is the operations 

specifications paragraph A4 49, specific to the 

anti-drug and alcohol misuse prevention 

program. 

Again^ this document is the 

confirmation by the certificate holder, named 

herein, that they will comply with the rules 

and regulations of the anti-drug and alcohol 

misuse prevention program. 

Q Is this document kept in the 

(202) 234-4433 

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A Yes, it is. 

Q Does this document address where 

questions concerning the drug and alcohol 

program can be addressed? 

A Yes, under Section C-1, on this 

document, notes that all questions regarding 

the drug and alcohol program should be 

directed to the drug abatement division. 

Q Why the drug abatement division? 

A Because we are the branch, of the 

F7VA, that is responsible for compliance and 

enforcement, with the drug and alcohol program 

regulations. 

MR. RALEY: Your Honor, at this 

time I would like to move that Exhibit A 

should be entered into evidence. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection. 

Doctor? 

DR. SELIG: No. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; A-2, for 

identification , is received int o evidence , as 

(202) 234-4433 

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(The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Complainant 

Exhibit A-2 was admitted in 

evidence.) 

Q 

BY MR. RALEY; 

At this time I would like to show 

you what is being marked as Complainant's 

exhibi t .^-3 . 

{Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Complainant Exhibit No. A-3 for 

identification.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

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A 

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Do you recognize this document? 

Yes . 

What is this document? 

A This is the operations 

specifications paragraph D0B5, which lets the 

aircraft, that are authorized under the named 

certificate, to operate. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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Q And what -- how many aircraft are 

authorized to operate under this certificate? 

A One. 

Q What is the registration number of 

that aircraft? 

A November 9, A, Charlie, Mike. 

Q And, just to be clear, is this the 

paragraph DOB5 for Respondent? 

A Yes . 

Q Is this a document that is kept in 

the normal course of business at the FAA? 

A Yes . 

MR. RALEY: At this time I would 

like to move that exhibit A-3 be entered into 

evidence. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection? 

DR. SELIG: No. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency 3, for 

identification, is received into everything as 

Agency 3. 

(The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

(202) 234-4433 

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identification as Complainant 

Exhibit A-3 was admitted in 

evidence.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q What type of inspection was 

conducted for Respondent? 

A It was --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's give a point 

in time. 

MR. RALEY: I'm sorry. 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q The 2008, 2009 inspection of 

Respondent, what type of inspection was 

conducted? 

A It • was a routine compliance 

enforcement inspection. 

0 Who conducted the inspection? 

A Two of my inspectors, LaTonya 

Williams, and Kim Barnette. 

Q Did anybody else have a role in 

that inspection? 

A Yes, because we review all of the 

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findings of the inspection, back at the 

office. 

who? 

Q And, to be clear, we would include 

A The team coordinator, and the 

center manager. 

Q 

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The team coordinator was who? 

It was Chet Stevenson and Howard 

O'Neill, they are both my team coordinators. 

Q And the center manager is 

yourself? 

A It is myself. 

Q What, if anything, did the 

inspectors discover, during this inspection? 

A The inspectors discovered that 

Edward Baker, the A&P mechanic who performed 

safety-sensitive duties on the aircraft, 

listed in the paragraph D085, for M&R 

Helicopters, was not covered either under 

M&R's plan, and did not have his own program. 

0 What documents did the inspectors 

review? 

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A The inspectors reviewed flight 

logs, they reviewed maintenance records, there 

were no pre-employment records to review. 

They reviewed the training, and the drug and 

alcohol program records. 

Q Who provided these documents? 

A Dr. Selig did. 

Q _ I'd like to show you what is being 

marked as Complainant's exhibit A-4. 

(Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Complainant Exhibit No. A-4 for 

identification.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Do you recognize this document? 

A Yes . 

Q What is this document? 

A This is the aircraft maintenance 

record for aircraft November 9, Charlie, Mike, 

indicating that Edward L. Baker, and it lists 

his A&P certificate number 158545206, and it 

indicates the type of work that he performed. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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Specifically, on July 24th, 2008, down at the 

bottom. 

It shows that he performed safetysensitive work on this aircraft. It says, 

main rotor crack and balance checked, check 

number 4300, and valve 2006 maintenance manual 

chapter 65. 

And it says that he conducted 

these checks in accordance with the 

maintenance manual. 

Q Was this document obtained as part 

of this investigation? 

A Yes. 

Q Was this document certified by the 

inspector- . --> 

A Yes . 

MR. RALEY; At this time I would 

like to move that Complainant's exhibit A-4 be 

moved into evidence. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection? 

DR. SELIG: No. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

(202) 234-4433 

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BY MR. RALEY: 

And, just to be clear 

JUDGE GOODV^IN: Agenc y 4, for 

identification, is received into evidence as 

Agency 4. 

Q 

{The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Complainant 

Exhibit No. A-4 was admitted in 

evidence.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Just to be clear, is the aircraft 

noted on the work order the same, the aircraft 

noted in Exhibit A-4, the same as the aircraft 

that is on the operational specifications of 

Respondent? 

A Yes, it is November 98, Charlie, 

Mike. 

Q Thank you. I'd like to, now, show 

you what is being marked a s Complainant's 

Exhibit A-5. 

{Whereupon, the above-referenced 

(20:>) 234-4433 

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to document was marked as 

Complainant Exhibit No. A-5 for 

identification.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Do you recognize this document? 

Yes. 

What is this document? 

A This is the flight log for that 

same helicopter. Bell Helicopter 206 , November 

9 8, Charlie, Mike. And it shows ail of the 

f1ights that the - - that were conducted. 

Q Was this document obtained in the 

course of this investigation? 

A Yes 

Q Was receipt of this document 

certified by the inspector? 

A Yes . 

Q Had Respondent conducted Part 135 

flights? 

A Yes. 

MR. RALEY: At thi s time I' d lik e 

t o move tha t Complainant' s Exhibi t A-5 be 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection? 

DR. SELIG: Yes, I object. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: What is the basis 

of your objection? 

DR. SELIG: The basis is the 

inaccurate depiction of this document. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Why is it 

inaccurate? 

DR. SELIG: Excuse me? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Why is it 

inaccurate? 

DR. SELIG: Because I -- because 

it does not show -- okay. It does show Part 

135 flight prior when I was a certified pilot 

for the operation. 

Your concept is that Part 135 

flights were conducted prior to the violation 

period, that is your statement, right? 

MR. RALEY: This document 

indicates that you performed Part 135 

operations - -

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DR. SELIG: Right, prior to - -

before June of 2007. 

MR. RALEY: That is correct. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; No objection? 

DR. SELIG: No objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency 5, for 

identification, is received in evidence as 

Agency 5. 

{The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Complainant 

Exhibit A-5 was admitted in 

evidence.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

0 I'd like to now show you what has 

been marked as Complainant's Exhibit A-6. 

{Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Complainant Exhibit No. A-6 for 

identification.) 

MR. RALEY: And just a quick note. 

Your Honor. This is a random eligibility 

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Social Security numbers of Dr. Selig. We will 

Qo ahead and redact that. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don't you do 

this? 

MR. RALEY: We have a pen here. 

Your Honor. 

MS. CARON: We have a black 

marker, Your Honor. 

MR. RALEY: Better than that. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Make sure you show 

Dr. Selig, make sure that the Social Security 

numbers are redacted. 

Normally I wouldn't worry about 

the last four, but - -

MR. RALEY: Mr. Baker would also 

like his numbers, his A&P numbers dedacted as 

wel 1 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You are telling me 

his A6cP number? 

MR. RALEY: Yes, because at that 

point in time it was a Social Security number. 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, why don't 

you approach, I'm going to hand you exhibit 4, 

for identification, and ask you to redact Dr. 

Selig's -- make sure that he is satisfied. 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: That is the 

problem with, if you go back far enough, they 

used your Social Security number on 

everything. 

(Pause.) 

MR. RALEY: It will just be a 

moment. Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Take your time. 

(Pause.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And, doctor, you 

a r e satisfied txhat your Social Security number 

has been dedacted from that exhibit? 

DR. SELIG: Yes, Your Honor. 

MR. RALEY: May I continue. Your 

Honor? 

ahead. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, please go 

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BY MR. RALEY; 

Q Now I'd like to show you what has 

been marked as Complainant's Exhibit A-6. Do 

you recognize this document ? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q And what is this document? 

A This is the random eligibility 

pool listing. It indicates all of the 

employees that are included in the M&R 

Helicopters random drug and alcohol testing 

pool . 

Q For what period of time? 

A This is for periods January 1st, 

2007 to July 21st of 2009. 

Q Was this document obtained during 

the course of the investigation? 

A Yes. 

Q Was receipt of this document 

certified by the inspector? 

A Yes. 

Q Who was in the random pool? 

A In the random pool there was only 

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one employee during that entire period, and it 

vyas Dr. Michael Selig. 

Q Was Mr. Baker in the pool? 

A No. 

MR. RALEY: At this time I'd like 

to move that Complainant's Exhibit A-6 be 

moved into evidence. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection? 

DR. SELIG: No. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And j ust so you 

know, I paginate at the bottom right-hand 

corner. So the exhibit that you will see on 

the internet will have 1 of 6, 2 of 6, 3 of 6 . 

So in the future, if we refer to 

something we can be specific. Agency 6, for 

identification, is received in evidence as 

Agency 6. 

(The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Complainant 

Exhibit No. A-6 was received in 

evidence.) 

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BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Was a letter of investigation 

issued during the course of this 

investigation? 

A Yes 

Q What -- I'm now going to show you 

what is being marked as Complainant's Exhibit 

A-7 . 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

(Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Complainant Exhibit No. A-7 for 

identification.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Do you recognize this document? 

Yes. 

What is this document? 

This is the letter of 

investigation that was sent pursuant to the 

conduction of the inspection. 

Q What purpose does this document 

serve? 

A This document allows, or notifies 

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the operator, for the second time, because 

they first were noticed, during the 

inspection, at the inspection, but it kind of 

confirms the items that were discovered, and 

it provides the operator an opportunity to 

provide a response to the apparent violations. 

MR. RALEY: At Chis time I would 

like to move Complainant's Exhibit A-7 into 

evidence. Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection? 

DR. SELIG: No. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, is the 

Westgate Drive address a business address? 

DR. SELIG: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. You 

understand v;hy I'm asking you? Doctor, if we 

come to a point, in the record, where you see 

your own address, let counsel know, and we 

will be sure we redact it. 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Did Respondent reply to the letter 

of investigation? 

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A Yes . 

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Q I'd like to show you what has been 

marked as Complainant's Exhibit A-8. 

(Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Complainant Exhibit No. A-8 for 

identification.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: While, you are 

doing that, Agency 7 for identification is 

received into evidence as Agency 7. 

(The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Complainant 

Exhibit No. A-7 was admitted in 

evidence.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Do you recognize this document? 

A Yes . 

Q What is this document? 

A This is Dr. Selig's response to 

the letter of investigation. 

Q What, if anything, was learned 

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from this document, with regard to Mr. Baker's 

employment? 

A It was learned that Mr. Baker was 

employed by Air Methods, Inc., Dr. Selig 

writes, here, that Mr. Baker was continuously 

engaged in a drug program, in his capacity as 

a full-time mechanic pilot, and A&P mechanic, 

medivac pilot, and A&P mechanic, with Air 

Methods, Inc. , prior to, and during his 

performance of maintenance on the - - here it 

says DHR aircraft. 

MR. RALEY: At this time I would 

like to move that Complainant's Exhibit A-7 --

JUDGE GOODWIN: This is A-8. 

MR. RALEY: A-8 be entered into 

evidence. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection, Dr. 

Selig? 

DR. SELIG: No. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency 8, for 

idencification, is received into evidence as 

Agency 8. 

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(The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Complainant 

Exhibit No. A-8 was received in 

evidence.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Did the inspectors review whether 

Mr. Baker was on Air Methods' program? 

A Yes . 

Q Are you familiar with an agency 

called, or the term Flight Methods? 

A I am -- Flight Methods is what Dr. 

Selig mentioned as Mr. Baker's employer, 

during the inspection. He also mentioned that 

in a statement that he prepared for the 

inspectors. 

It was later discovered that it 

was not Flight Methods but, rather. Air 

Methods, where Mr. Baker worked. 

Q Did Mr . Baker perform the work for 

Respondent, on behalf of Air Methods? 

A No. 

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Q At this time I would like to show 

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you what is being marked as Complainant's 

Exhibit A-9. 

(Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Complainant Exhibit No. A-9 for 

identification.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Do you recognize this document? 

A Yes. 

Q What is this document? 

A This is a record of emails from 

John Hagleroad with the drug program manager 

at Air Methods. 

Q What, if anything, was learned 

from this email? 

A It was learned that yes, indeed, 

Mr. Baker did work for Air Methods, he was a 

pilot who also holds an A&P certificate. 

However, he was not authorized, by Air 

Methods, to conduct any sort of maintenance 

for M&R Helicopters, or any other operator. 

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which indicates that he performed the 

maintenance for M&R Helicopters on his own, 

outside of the scope of his employment with 

Air Methods. 

MR. RALEY: At this time I would 

like to move that Complainant's Exhibit A-9 be 

moved into evidence. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection, 

doctor? 

DR. SELIG: No. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency 9, for 

identification, is received into evidence as 

Agency 9. 

(The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Complainant 

Exhibit No. A-9 was received in 

evidence.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Did the inspector, or any of the 

inspectors, involved with this case, ever 

contact Mr. Baker? 

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A Yes. 

Q What, if anything, did they learn 

from that contact? 

A They learned that Mr. Baker had 

been directly employed and paid by Dr. Selig 

for Che work that he performed on the 

aircraft, listed in the OpSpecs. 

Q I'd like to show you what is being 

marked as Complainant's Exhibit A-10. 

(Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Complainant Exhibit No. A-10 for 

identification.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Do you recognize this document? 

A Yes . 

Q 

A 

What is this document? 

This is the letter for the 

statement signed by Edward Baker, to our 

office, Chet Stevenson, specifically, where he 

states that he was paid directly by Dr. Selig 

for the work that he conducted on July 24th of 

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2008 . 

It states the kind of work that he 

performed, and I will read right from it. It 

says: On July 24th, 2008, I performed a main 

rotor track and balance check, per the request 

of aircraft owner, and for this I was 

compensated, via check, in the amount of 200 

dollars. 

Q Was this document obtained during 

the normal course of the investigation? 

A 

Q 

inspector? 

A 

Yes. 

Was this document certified by the 

Yes . 

MR. RALEY: At this time I would 

like to move to have Complainant's Exhibit A10 moved into evidence. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection? 

DR. SELIG: Negative. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Agency's 10, for 

identification, is received in evidence as 

Agency's 10. 

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{The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Complainant's 

Exhibit No. A-10 was admitted in 

evidence.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

0 Have you ever heard of the term 

moonlight ing? 

A 

Q 

Yes . 

What does that mean? 

A Moonlighting is when an employee, 

assuming he says he is employed, such as Mr. 

Baker, for example, works and is covered under 

an employer, as he was for Air Methods, and is 

in their random testing program. 

However, he performs work on his 

own, outside of the scope of his employment, 

with another operator, and that is prohibited 

by the regulation, unless that other employer, 

in this case M&R covers him in his program, or 

Mr. Baker has his own testing program. 

Q So does Mr. Baker's status, as a 

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moonlighter, have any effect here? 

A Yes, it is not -- not only is it a 

violation of the regulation, because the 

regulation prohibits moonlighting, but it also 

affects safety in that because he was only 

covered by Air Methods' program, there is no 

way that if Mr. Baker tested positive, at Air 

Methods, there is no way for him to be removed 

from performing those safety-sensitive 

functions at M&R, because M&R would never know 

that he tesCed positive at Air Methods. 

0 Are there any safety consequences 

to this? 

A Absolutely. If Mr. Baker were 

under the influence of drug and alcohol, it 

could have catastrophic consequences, causing 

death, or serious injury, or substantial 

damage to the aircraft. 

Q Do appendices I and J, as in 

effect in 2008, define the term employer? 

A 

Q 

(202) 23J-^433 

Yes. 

What is an employer, under the 

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regulat ion? 

A An employee is a 119 certificate 

holder who is authorized to conduct 135 

flights. 

Q Was the Respondent an employer 

under che regulations? 

A Yes. 

Q Do appendices I and J of Part 121 

that were in effect at the time, define the 

term employee, or covered employee? 

A 

Q 

Yes . 

What is the what is an 

employee, or a covered employee, under the 

regulations? 

A An employee is someone who works 

for a 119 certificate holder, who is 

authorized to conduct 135 operations in what 

we call a safety-sensitive capacity. 

Q What is a safety-sensitive 

capacity? 

A It is anyone who performs 

maintenance, or preventive maintenance, in 

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this particular case. 

0 What function v^as Mr. Baker 

performing for the Respondent ? 

A Maintenance and preventive 

maintenance. 

Q 

sensitive? 

A 

Q 

Are those considered safetyYes . 

Was Mr. Baker an employee of 

Respondent, under the regulations? 

A Yes . 

Q Why? 

A Because he was hired to perform 

the safety-sensitive functions. 

Q Was Mr. Baker on Respondent's drug 

and alcohol testing program? 

A No. 

Q Was Mr. Baker, on his own drug and 

alcohol testing program? 

A No. 

Q What conclusions did you draw from 

this evidence? 

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A Because he did not have his own 

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program, and because M&R Helicopters did not 

cover him, in its own program, it was 

concluded that Mr. Baker was performing these 

duties outside the scope of his employment 

wich Air Methods and, therefore, he was in a 

moonlighting situation, which is prohibited by 

the regulation. 

And because he was not subject to 

testing and included in the pool for M&R, then 

it was discovered that that was a violation of 

the regulations. 

Q What did you do after reviewing 

Chis case ? 

A I reviewed all of the evidence 

that my inspectors gathered, and I approved 

the case, and we submitted it for legal 

processing for the headquarters section. 

MR. RALEY: That is all I have at 

this time. Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross-examination, 

Dr. Selig? 

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CROSS - EXAMINATION 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q 

A 

Ms. Lozada? 

Lozada. 

Q Lozada, okay. Exhibit 1-A, this 

discloses that the date of this document is 5-

03, do you agree to thac? 

A I'm sorry? 

Q The date of this document, the 

control number is May of '03, and was signed 

off on February of '04, is that correct? 

A It says HQ control, it says May 

9th of '03. 

Q Okay, we will use that, okay. And 

this mentions basically operations. But can 

you imply that this was current in 2008, when 

there is no pilot? 

A I am not a FSDO inspector. 

Q Okay, that is a fair statement. 

A So l can't, I don't know. 

Q Well, would you say that I wasn't 

authorised to fly in 2008? 

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A You had a valid 135 certificate. 

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Q But can you fly without a pilot? 

A I don't know that matter, I'm not 

a FSDO inspector. 

Q That is a fair statement, though. 

Common sense would tell you --

MR. RALEY: Objection, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Don't come in with 

your testimony, doctor. 

DR. SELIG: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You can ask her 

questions and solicit responses. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q All right, the A-2, which is A449, 

the date of that document is February 2004, 

wou 1 d you agree v; i t h that? 

A Where are you seeing the date? 

0 It is on the second page. 

A That is the date that, like on the 

line that says, Michael B. Selig, Agent for 

Service date? 

Q Yes. 

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A February 2004. 

Q Okay. And what date did the 

regulat ion change? 

MR. RALEY: Objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

MR. RALEY: What specific 

regulation. Your Honor? This is --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, let's see if 

she can answer the question. 

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 

DR. SELIG: Let me rephrase --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Can you answer the 

question that is posed? 

THE WITNESS: What was the 

Cjues t ion? 

BY DR. SELIG 

Q The question is, the specific 

regulation that stated that Mr. Baker had to 

be under my direct drug and alcohol program, 

v;hen was that changed? 

A Februarv of 2004. 

Q Okay. So is it possible that I 

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didn't know about this, and it was signed off, 

and it was not updated? 

MR . RALEY: Obj ec t i on, 

speculation. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. Dr. 

Selig, there is no way that she can know what 

you were thinking. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

0 I guess my point is, is it 

possible that since this was signed off, 

probably signed off, the document presented 

earlier, the document created earlier, that 

the regulation changed after this document was 

signed? 

A Prior to a regulation changing, 

there is a whole PRM in process, a notice of 

proposed rulemaking. The industry is given an 

opportunity to provide comments. 

.All of those things, all of that 

happens prior to a regulation effective --

Q I will get into that. But I just 

need you to just address the fact that this 

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document was signed prior to the change, the 

formal change in the regulat ion. 

A I know that this document says, 

because I don't prepare this document, the 

FSDO does --

Q Okay, if the regulation --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig, let her 

answer the question. 

THE WITNESS: So I know it says, 

on the line where it says your name, and agent 

for service, I know that it is dated 2-4-2004. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Okay. 

A I don't know what that signature, 

because I don't ovyn it. 

Q But there is a good possibility, 

chances are more to the fact that this was 

signed after the regulation changed? 

MR. RALEY: Objection, 

speculat ion. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. Answer 

the question, if you can. 

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THE WITNESS: I don't know. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Okay, I understand. Now, if we 

look at section 3 -- first of all, I would 

like to ask you, where does it say, on this 

document, where to look for these regulations^ 

or is there a website, or anything? 

How, when you read this, how do 

you know that you have to go look someplace 

else? Obviously all this, you can't tell 

where to look for it on this document, is that 

correct? There is no website on this 

document. 

A There is no website on this 

document. However, it does tell you the 

regulations, it tells you exactly which 

regulations you agree to comply to. 

It tells you who to contact for 

quest ions. 

0 Okay, that is a good enough 

answer. If I could direct you to number 3, it 

says contractors who perform safety-sensitive 

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quest ion. 

Q 

MR. RALEY: Objection 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Let him finish the 

lY DR. SELIG: 

It would be C-3, C-3. 

A Okay. 

Q And I'm reading the second -- that 

wJiole sentence, I will just read it . 

Contractors who perform safety-sensitive-work, 

for the certified holder, are subject to antidrug and alcohol prevention programs. 

MR'. RALEY: Objection, that is a 

misstatement of the --

THE WITNESS: It doesn't say that. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

0 The certificate - -

JUDGE GOODWIN: Just hold on. 

DR. SELIG: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, you ask a 

question. If you can answer it, you can 

answer it. Wait until he asks the question 

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before you enter your objection. 

MR. RALEY: Go ahead, doctor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Repeat your 

question so that the witness can --if you are 

referring to a document, refer to the section, 

you can certainly read what is there. But 

focus the witness' attention to what it is 

that you are specifically trying to enquire 

about. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Okay, C-3, the certificate holder 

is responsible for ensuring that its 

contractors, who perfoi'm safety-sensitive 

work, for the certificate holder, are subject 

to anti-drug and alcohol abuse prevention 

programs. 

That is what it says right there? 

A Correct. 

Q Okay. Now, didn't I do that, 

being that Mr. Baker was on Air Methods drug 

and alcohol program, wasn't he, didn't I 

fulfill that requirement? 

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0 It doesn't say that Mr. Baker 

needs to be on my own drug and alcohol 

program? 

A The regulation says that. 

Q I'm asking you about this 

document. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Listen to the 

question, just answer the question that he is 

asking you. 

Q 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Does this document tell me that 

Mr. Baker needs to be on my drug and alcohol 

program, not Air Methods' drug and alcohol 

program? 

A Thrs document does not tell you 

that, Mr. Baker - -

0 Thank you. 

MR. RALEY: Objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, let her 

answer the question. 

THE WITNESS: This document does 

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not reference Mr. Baker at all. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Any A&P mechanic, okay, let's say 

-- we are splitting hairs here. Okay, any --

okay. Does this document state that any 

contractor needs to be on my specific drug and 

alcohol program? 

A No. 

Q Okay, all right . So - - and it 

doesn't tell a website that I can go and look 

at, z-ight? 

A 

Q 

It does not mention a website. 

Okav. 

A It only mentions the regulation. 

Q All right, now Ms. Lozada, while 

we are on that subject, when did the website, 

when was the website initiated? Because we 

are talking about 2 0 04, here. 

When was the website let me 

just get that evidence here. 

DR. SELIG: We will make this R-1? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You ca n -- doctor, 

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if you have them numbered, I don't mind 

whether you introduce them as 5, or 6, or 10, 

or whatever, in terms of the sequence, if you 

don't have them marked, the easiest way to do 

it, is just mark them and go from there. 

DR. SELIG: Into R-1? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: It would be easier 

for the Court, yes. 

DR. SELIG: I just didn' t know 

v/hat your numbering system was going to be. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: It varies from 

trial to trial. Typically one party uses the 

alphabet, and the other uses numbers. But 

that is fine. 

(Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Respondent Exhibit No. 1 for 

identification.} 

bench? 

DR. SELIG: May I approach the 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

BY DR. SELIG : 

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Q Ms. Lozada, this is when the 

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hold on one second here. 

Pause. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Well, this document represents 

when the Federal Aviation Administration 

website vjas actually started. And so you are 

telling me that I have to go on a website, and 

figure out what this regulation is, and the 

website wasn't even available then, it didn't 

start, this order of 8900.1, stated this 

website started in 2007. 

A Please allow me to correct you. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that 

question? You made a statement, doctor 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Okay, is that correct? 

A No, it is incorrect. This 

document is a flight standards document, and 

perhaps flight standards started a vyebsite. 

However, the drug abatement 

website had been in existence, since I started 

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as an inspector, back in 2000. This is not 

our Order, this is a flight standards order. 

Q Ms. Lozada, I'm confused. I 

thought it would be on the federal website, 

now you are telling me there is another one. 

How are we supposed to know where to look? 

I mean, this is not a moving 

target situation. How do we know, it is not -

A You google drug abatement, which 

is -- he is asking me how --

0 Hov;, how is an individual to know? 

A You google - -

Q How is an individual? I'm looking 

at my OpSpecs, how am I to know what is going 

on here? Where are these regulations? It is 

not in a foreign name, che most common --

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Hov; is someone going to be 

compliant? Can you tell me, what are the" 

methods of compliance? Because it is not 

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listed in my OpSpecs. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, you asked 

three questions. 

DR. SELIG: Okay, sorry. 

THE WITNESS: I can tell you, 

because your OpSpecs paragraph A44 9, which is 

specific to the drug and alcohol testing 

regulations, if you had done what C-1 says, 

which is all questions pertaining to the drug 

and alcohol should be addressed to the drug 

abatement division. 

If you' go on google, and you say 

drug abatement division, our website pops up. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

0 But suppose I didn' t have any 

questions. I'm looking at this document and 

I'm saying, okay, I'm doing everything right. 

Mr. Baker is, for the past 2 5 years he has 

been on the drug and alcohol program. 

I don't have any questions, 

because I'm doing this right. My operations 

inspector is telling me I'm doing everything 

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right. My niai ntenance inspector, Mr. Henenger, 

he is telling me I'm doing everything right. 

So why vyould I have any questions, 

and I don't even know where to look? I mean, 

I'm not an attorney, - -

MR. RALEY: Objection. 

Q 

BY DR. SELIG: 

So I'm just confused. And 

everybody else who has reviewed this case also 

is confused, how, what are the methods for 

compliance? I just don't understand. 

How do you find out about this? 

V^Jhy does it have to be such a secret, why is 

that? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor , you aske d 

five or six questions. You have a question 

that you have asked, you are making 

statements, and asking a question. 

If you have a question, you are 

making statements and asking questions. If 

you have a question that she can answer, then 

ask her. 

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BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Do you have, with you today, 

written, what the methods of compliance were 

in 2008? 

A Do I have with me --

0 Yes. 

A -- methods of compliance? 

Q Yes . I mean, this supports what 

the case is about --

A The regulation is what the case is 

about. ' 

Q Okay, but - -

A And you asked me if I have the 

regulation? 

Q I'm asking you, what the methods 

of •-- okay, let me put it this way. Why is it 

that 1 didn't know about the regulation, the 

Allentown FSDO didn't know about this 

regulat ion change. 

How come, if Mr. Roots didn't know 

about the regulation change, how is that 

possible, if that information was never 

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disseminated properly to all of these 

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A I don't know. 

Q Are they guilty, also, for not 

checking the website? Okay, I understand. 

A No, there are just so many 

questions, I don't know which to answer first. 

Q Okay. Why is it that none of the 

people that I see on a regular basis, didn't 

know about these specific changes in the 

regulations? 

A Who are the people that you see on 

a regular basis? 

A Mr. Alotta, Mr. Alotta, who is my 

operation specifications since 2002, Mr. 

Henenger, who was my maintenance inspector, 

since 2002, Mr. Roots didn't know about it, 

and he was in my office in March and April of 

2004 . 

The regulation had changed in 

April, the regulation changed two months 

before. How come Mr. Roots didn't knovy about 

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that regulation? 

A I don't know who Mr. Roots is 

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0 Okay, let me refresh your memory 

here. I'm going to call this R-2. 

(Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Respondent Exhibi t No. R-2 for 

identification.) 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q You do recall that you mentioned 

in the record that I had a drug inspection by 

Mr. Roots, from your department, in 2004. Is 

that correct? 

A Vincent Roots is who you are 

talking about? 

Q Vincent Roots, yes. Why is it, Ms. 

Lozada, that he didn't know about the -- that 

he couldn't tell me, train me, and he didn't 

know about it, when according to you I should 

have been violated back, at that point, right? 

Is that correct? 

MR. RALEY: Objection, speculation 

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as to what her knowledge of Mr. Roots --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained 

Doctor, there is no way she can know that, she 

wouldn't be able to respond to what someone 

doesn't know. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q All right , so the question is 

that, obviously from that letter, I was not 

notified of a change in the regulation? 

A I don't know what happened during 

that inspect ion. 

0 Well, there is a letter there. It 

would be in that letter, you would have 

mentioned if there was a regulation change in 

that letter. I mean, that would be standard 

procedure? 

MR. RALEY: Obj ect ion, 

speculation. 

JUDGE GOODWIW: Overruled. If you 

can answer the question, the reference is by 

looking at that letter. 

THE WITNESS: I don't know what he 

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BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Well, it is in the letter. 

A What is in the letter? 

Q. Well, it is actually what is not 

i n Che letter. That letter, after he reviewed 

my case, when the regulation had changed two 

months before, I'm sorry, three months before 

he reviewed me, but he didn't mention anything 

about a regulation change. 

A I don' t know what type of 

inspection was assigned to Mr. Roots. I don't 

know if he, perhaps, was assigned a focus 

inspection, where he didn't have to look at 

those records, that was not part of his 

assignment 

Or 1 don't know if he failed to 

look at those records, and that is why - -

Q Okay, that is --

A -- it was fortuitous, for you, 

that he didn' t catch it at that point . 

Because I also don't know what records you 

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provided to him at that point, either. I 

really can't answer that question. 

Q It is possible he failed to inform 

me, that is possible, right? 

A I don' t know if he failed to 

inform you. 

Q All right . Now, there was a 

statement made that I had no pre-employment 

informat ion on Mr. Baker. And I would j ust 

like this -- this particular document was in -

- was in my drug audit book. 

Which --

(Pause.) 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q So there was something in the 

record. And this was, by the way, so you 

would agree with me --

JUDGE GOODWIN; Doctor, allow her 

to look at the exhibit. Do you have one for 

the Court? Doccor, whic h exhibit number do 

you want this to be? 

DR. SELIG: R-3. 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, what you may 

have done is written it on one of the other 

ones . 

(Whereupon, the above-referenced 

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Respondent Exhibit No. R-3 for 

identification.) 

BY DR. SELIG: 

0 So this document is pretty much 

consistent with Mr. Baker always being on a 

drug and alcohol program, correct? 

A Actually, I don't see that here. 

Q Well, he was on a drug program 

starting in 2006, would you agree there? 

A This is not what this certifies. 

0 Well, then let's enter these into 

evidence, then. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, do you 

know what the date is, down below the 

signature block? I'm seeing the 2006, but the 

copy the Court has I can't tell what the date 

is . 

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DR. SELIG: Yes, that is the best 

it wasn't in great shape to begin with. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: If we don't know 

we - -

DR. SELIG: I mean, that is what 

v;as given to me early on . 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I've got 

sufficient information, too. 

BY DR. SELIG : 

Q And then, because the company is 

clianging, this would be -- wouldn't you agree 

that this should be further confirmation that 

Mr. Baker was on a drug and alcohol program? 

A So the first document that you 

handed me, that is the receipt of a policy. 

Q Right. So --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Hold on a minute. 

THE WITNESS: So it is --

JUDGE-GOODWIN: Which document are 

you talking about? 

THE WITNESS: This one , it is 

receipt of a policy . 

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reason we have to keep this straight, is when 

you say it is the first piece of paper he 

showed you. 

THE WITNESS: Correct. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. If this 

comes up on appeal, somebody reading the 

transcript doesn't have a clue what you or I 

are talking about. 

THE WITNESS: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So the witness is 

referring and, doctor, correct me if I'm 

wrong, the witness is referring to 

Respondent's 3, for identification? Is that 

what we are talking about? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now continue 

wi th what you were saying. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q The second document, that I just 

handed you - -

JUDGE GOODWIN; She started to 

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say, v;hat the witness started to say, 

Respondent's 3 for identification says, and 

then I cut you off. 

THE WITNESS: It is the receipt of 

the policy. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Okay, all right . Now, if Mr. 

Henenger, who is my maintenance coordinator, 

was okay with that document, to allow for Mr. 

Baker to commence working on the aircraft, 

v.'oulchT't he be led to believe that that would 

be a correct statement? 

A Who is Mr. Henenger? 

MR. RALEY: Objection. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Mr. Henenger is my maintenance 

coordinator. So if Mr. Henenger told me I 

need you to have an A&P license on file, and 

I need to have some evidence of a prior drug, 

of being on a drug program, or some kind of 

pre-employment drug program, wouldn't -- and 

he saw that document, and he okayed for Mr. 

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Baker to do work on the aircraft, would there 

be reason for you to do otherwise, would there 

be reason - -

A Of course, yes. Because this does 

not certify that he is in a program. And if 

you are talking about, I'm not sure who Mr. 

Henenger is, but if --

Q He is a maintenance - -

A - - he is your PMI, he is not 

authorized to review drug and alcohol program 

records like that, nor is it his 

responsibility. 

Q So if I'm a layperson, and I'm not 

real well versed on all the fine print of, you 

know, these regulations --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Hold on. Okay, go 

ahead. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q If your operations inspections 

person, and your maintenance inspector tell 

you that this is what you need, would there be 

reason for me to look otherwise, for other 

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answers, or to further investigate the matter? 

A Well, there should be, because it 

said to you, and you certified, in your 

OpSpecs that all questions pertaining to the 

drug and alcohol portion of your program would 

be directed to the drug and alcohol - -

Q I agree with you. But if my 

inspectors tell me I'm okay, I don't have any 

questions, I'm not going to look for 

questions. Why would I look for questions? 

The point is, if you agree, then 

this whole thing is not forthright. 

A I disagree because, because Dr. 

Selig, I would go to the source, if I had a 

question. Because I would never give you 

maintenance instruction, because that is not 

my area of expertise. 

So the drug and alcohol program is 

not their area of responsibility, or 

expertise, so honestly, anything that you had 

concerning the drug and alcohol program should 

have been directed to us. 

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Q So how am I supposed to know that? 

It is not in the OpSpec that, you know, who to 

talk to. And it is only saying if I have 

quest ions. 

A This is not meant as a disrespect 

to you. Dr. Selig. But you are a 

cardiologist, correct? 

Q Yes 

A So if you have a patient who has 

an ear problem, would you answer that, or 

vyould you send them to an E&T? 

0 Well, I was an internist, so --

A Well, it is just an example. 

Q I understand. 

A I believe that you have to go to 

the source to get proper information. 

0 That is according to these 

regulations, don't you agree, if I have 

questions. But if there have been no 

questions raised, there is no reason to 

enquire. 

Another question, prior to 

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February 2004, wasn't this procedure, that I 

had v/ith Mr. Baker, the standard procedure, 

being that the only thing needed was that Mr. 

Baker be on a drug and alcohol program, not my 

drug and alcohol program? 

A Prior to 2004? 

Q February 2004, the regulation 

allowed Mr. Baker to be on - - as long as he 

was on a drug and alcohol program, that was 

the regulation then? 

A Prior to 2004 all you had to do 

was ensure that he was, in fact, in a drug 

program. 

0 Thank you. 

.^ However, when the - -

Q Thank you. 

A -- regulatio n changed , 

moonlighting was prohibited. And notice of 

that upcoming change was put out long before 

the effective date of the regulation, in 

February 2004. 

Q Okay, s o - -

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JUDGE GOODWIN: At that point the 

Court is going to go off the record, and we 

are going to take a break. 

I'm going to ask you to return at 

1:15. Doctor, the first thing you learn is to 

look for the clock and the second is, to make 

sure the battery is in it. 

I have yet to be in a courtroom 

where I have two clocks that say the same 

thing, and most of them don't have batteries. 

So I want to save you the problem. 

So we are going to go off the 

record, and I will ask that you return at 

1:15. And the witness, you are not to discuss 

your testimony with anybody, during this 

recess. 

We will go off the record. 

(Whereupon, at 11:42 a.m., the 

above-entitled matter was recessed for lunch. ) 

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1:29 p.m. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig? 

DR. SELIG: Yes? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You may continue. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q We last left off with you 

mentioning that moonlighting was prohibited, 

and I asked you to produce a document to be 

significant. And do you have that document 

with you today, to give to the Court? 

A Are you asking me if I have the --

Q Yes, do you have the document --

you just referenced a document about how 

moonlighting was prohibited. 

A I said that when the regulation 

changed, we no longer allowed the practice of 

moonlighting, which was that practice that I 

explained earlier in my testimony. 

And now it is required for either 

the operator to put the person in their drug 

and alcohol testing pool - -

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Q That wasn't my question. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Let her finish, 

and then you - -

THE WITNESS: Or - -

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- can ask another 

quest ion. 

THE WITNESS: the contractor, 

whom you contracted with directly, in this 

case Mr. Baker, was to have his own program, 

or you could have entered into a contractual 

regulation with Air Methods, who covered Mr. 

Baker in their program. 

Q Okay, my question - - I will 

rephrase my question, in case you didn't 

understand it the first time. 

And that is, do you have that 

specific regulation, in print, so we can 

review that right now? 

A It is the regulation - -

Q Okay, can you pull out --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Just answer the 

question yes or no. 

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THE WITNESS: We have the 

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regulat ion. 

MR. RALEY: Your Honor, I can 

provide the regulation, if you would like. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So the answer to 

your question. Dr. Selig, is yes. So what is 

your next question? 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q What year was that regulation 

available so that it could be reviewed? 

A The effective date of the 

regulation? 

Q 

A 

Yes . 

It was 2004 

Q Okay. All right, now, how was I 

to be made aware of that particular regulation 

change? 

A The regulation is in the Federal 

Register, when it is announced in the Federal 

Register, it is also on our website. 

Q And so how was I to know that ? I 

mean, if I don' c know tha t the regulatio n 

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change is coming out, how am I supposed to 

know to look on the website, if there is no 

notification of it? 

A As an operator, as a certificate 

holder, you are required to maintain your 

knowledge of all of the requirements under 

which you are held responsible for operating 

under. 

Q Okay, thank you. Now, can you 

show m.e som.eplace where it gives me a time, 

how often am I supposed to check that website? 

Am I supposed to do it evei'y five minutes, 

every month, every year, every three years? 

Does it say someplace? Because 

otherwise, without a time frame, that we now 

have in operation, it is impossible to ever be 

one hundred percent compliant, if you don't 

know what the time frame is to respond to 

something. 

So is there an interval for 

checking these regulations, is there any 

guidance, whatsoever, of when to check for 

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these regulation changes? Yes or no? 

A Well, that is a personal decision. 

Q No, it is not. 

A How often you check is your own 

personal decision. 

Q Okay. But I'm trying to be 

compliant. So I'm looking for guidelines of 

how often I'm to check, wherever the site is, 

in order to be compliant, what is the 

interval? 

A Are you asking me to --

Q Is there a specified interval? 

A You are required to maintain 

compliance Dr. Selig. It is up to you how 

often you decide to check, or look into 

something, or if you --

Q Okay, thank you. 

A -- are uncertain about something, 

it is up to you to seek out the information 

from part ies who could give you proper 

guidance . 

Q So far, so fa r what you have sai d 

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is I'm supposed to look on this website, but 

there is no information about where the 

websi te is. 

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

He is mischaracterizing --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig, you are 

arguing. If you have a question, then ask the 

question. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Okay, so your answer basically is 

that - - or your answer is that I' m just 

supposed to --

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained, asked 

and answered. 

Q 

lY DR. SELIG: 

I wanted to ask, the fact that. 

concerning this notification process, the fact 

that my - - Mr. Roots didn't know about this 

change, my two inspectors didn't know about 

the change, Mr. Watworth, the manager of the 

Allentown FSDO did not know about the change 

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that occurred. 

But, somehow, you are expecting me 

to know about this change. Now, isn't that 

holding me to a higher standard, or a double 

standard, than your own FAA officials? 

A No. 

Q It is not? Okay, I understand. 

All right, and why do you think it is not a 

higher standard, or a double standard? 

A Mr. Roots' inspection has nothing 

to do with the current inspection that we are 

here for. The FSDO inspectors have absolutely 

nothing to do with our program, nor are they 

responsible for overseeing the drug and 

alcohol portion of your program. 

And you, as an operator, are 

required to maintain compliance, and you 

certified that you would be in compliance, and 

you were given the correct department for any 

kind of guidance that you should seek out 

guidance, from the drug abatement division. 

Q All right, so you are saying that 

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the full responsibility, which probably 

includes some kind of osmosis, or telepathy, 

to realize when a - - when a - -

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

0 -- when a regulation changed --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, ask a 

question, the attitudes don't help the Court 

with the issues in the case. 

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BY DR. SELIG: 

All right, Ms. Lozada, my, my 

maintenance coordinator, I'm sorry, inspector, 

Mr. Henenger, routinely looked over the law 

books. Probably at least every three months, 

since it v;as so convenient for him to do so, 

since the aircraft is just right across the 

street from the FSDO. 

And for almost five years he never 

mentioned a problem, he never mentioned 

anything about any kind of notification 

process. 

So, and assuming tha t I'm supposed 

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to listen to whatever FAA agent is 

representing the FAA, in particular matters, 

wouldn't it be likely that I would listen to 

someone who is right there, on a daily basis, 

with this operation, rather than some going on 

a website, or trying to figure out when --

A I'm going to repeat it once again. 

MR. RALEY: Objection --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Hold on. Counsel, 

you have an objection? 

MR. RALEY: Yes. This question is 

not relevant to the - - the actions of FSDO 

personnel are not relevant to the actions of 

the drug abatement division. 

The question here, before us, is -

it has to do with the drug abatement 

program, the drug division's enforcement of 

that program, not FSDO inspections of 

maintenance records. 

His characterization, here, is not 

relevant to the matter. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

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DR. SELIG: 

argument would be that 

Your Honor, my 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm not interested 

in arguing with you. The objection has --

DR. SELIG: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- been sustained, 

let's move on. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Okay, Ms. Lozada, how do you train 

your personnel, and how do they become aware 

of regulation changes? 

A We have a full training segment 

for newly hired inspectors. Not only does it 

include regulations training, but it includes 

on-site, on the job tx"aining. 

It also includes training for the 

21.53(b) order. It also includes inspection 

process order, the inspector order that is 

specifie to our inspectors. 

It requires EIR training, it 

requires correspondence in data base training. 

Q Okay. 

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quest ion. 

Now, all of those things - -

JUDGE GOODWIN: Let her answe r the 

THE WITNESS: - - are specific to 

our inspectors, for our types of inspections 

and investigations, nothing to do with any 

other FAA division. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Is there now a training program 

available for operators, did something like 

that come into recent availability, for 

operators, training for --

A 

Q 

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Q 

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it goes 

For us? 

Yes . 

For drug abatement? 

Yes . 

No. 

IS . 

I have read otherwise that there 

No. 

MR. RALEY: Objection , Your Honor, 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Just ask a 

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question and allow the witness to answer it. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q The fact that appendices I and J 

were revised, rewritten, recodified, 

relocated, wouldn't that indicate that there 

maybe was some problem with the clarification 

of those particular regulations? 

A Absolutely not. 

Q I see. And the reason for that is 

what? They mention it right in your 

documents, that it was unclear. 

A We -- the rewrite of the Rule was. 

basically, to give us our part, because we 

were an appendix I and J to part 121. And so 

this vyay we have our own part in the 

regulation. 

Basically what was done was to 

combine both appendices, I and J, into one. 

0 They clearly said they were 

revising it, rewriting it. 

A It was 

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A It wasn't - -

JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, you asked 

a question, she gave you an answer. You can't 

argLie with the witness about the answer that 

you requested. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q What would you say is the 

percentage of operators who have modified 

their OpSpecs to reflect, promptly, the 

regulatory amendments? 

A That is --

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Have you audited operators who 

also were unaware of changes, such as I have 

been, or have not received any kind of 

not ification? 

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

BY DR. SELIG : 

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Q Why was I not allowed the 

opportunity, cited in your own parameters, to 

cure or remedy my OpSpecs, without going 

directly to a violation? 

A I have nothing to do with your 

OpSpecs, that is a FSDO mission. 

Q I mean, I' m sorry, to allow to 

cure, modify, the letter of intent, or your 

letter of correction? In other words, instead 

of going right to a violation, how come I 

wasn't given the proper opportunity to amend 

my procedures, since they were not known of, 

instead of going right to a violation? 

Because if you - - go ahead and 

ansv/er that question. 

A I don't understand - -

Q The question is, the way - -

A -- your question. 

Q -- I understand your procedures, 

is that -- I guess I will reference it now. 

But I'm talking about lAl, compliance and 

enforcement tracking system, GETS, cites that 

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a letter of correction, or a warning notice, 

is appropriate when there are serious, serious 

safety issues,^or unwillingness to comply with 

regulations. 

Do you believe this was the case 

in this particular situation? 

A A letter of- correction follows a 

letter of investigation, and is considered an 

administrative action. 

So when you get your letter of 

investigation you provide a response, and that 

is your opportunity to provide a response, and 

any mediating, or any corrective action that 

you have implemented, to the FAA. 

And then we review your response, 

and then we determine which way we go with it, 

whether we proceed with a letter of 

correction, administrative action, which 

includes the letter of correction, it also 

includes a warning notice, or a no-action, 

which you did receive at one point or another. 

And/or whether or not we proceed 

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with legal action. With the issue pertaining 

to Mr. Baker, we decided to go with the legal 

action. With the other issues, you know that 

we went with administrative action. 

Q Okay. But the problem is you did 

not address the second part, the second part 

.of the sentence which is, quote, no serious 

safety issues or unwillingness to comply with 

the regulations. 

That is the premise which excludes 

a violation, under this section, in the GETS. 

Now, so do you believe there was a serious 

safety issue, number one? 

A CETSs are our compliance and 

enforcement tracking system --

0 Yes. 

A -- where we enter our findings of 

each inspection that we conduct . It is, 

basically, our data base, where we enter our 

inspection findings. 

It is not a guidance site, or 

anything like that, that tells us how to 

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handle each case. 

Q Okay, thank you. 

A Also, we look at the totality of 

the situation in determining what - - how we go 

with the process of the case. 

Q I understand. Was there any 

serious safeCy issues? 

A I believe that there is a serious 

safety issue in that Mr. Baker was not subject 

to random testing. 

Q Okay. How could there be a 

serious safety issue, if an aircraft was not 

flown for almost -- for four years, and no 135 

f 1 ights v;ere performed . 

How was that a serious safety 

issue? 

A There were 135 flights performed. 

And your 135 certificate was current and 

active. 

Q Okay, so you are saying that after 

he performed his service, on the aircraft, 

that che 135 flight was flown? 

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A I didn't say that. 

0 Okay. Well, that is the point. 

The point was, or do you agree that no serious 

safety issue, if the aircraft was never flown 

135 flights after that July 24th, 2008 

service? 

MR. RALEY: Objection, asked and 

answered. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

BY DR. SELIG; 

Q Now, the second part, which would 

allow, or provide reasonable prosecution of a 

violation, would be unwillingness to comply 

with the regulations. 

Now, do you believe that I was 

unwilling to comply with the regulations? 

A Do I believe --

Q Yes. 

A -- that you were unwilling? 

Q Yes. I mean, that would be the 

two stipulations in order to initiate a 

violation , rathe r than a letter of correction , 

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or a warning letter. 

A I would have to say yes, because 

v.'hen you agreed, in your OpSpecs, to follow 

all of the rules of the regulation, and you 

didn't, then to me that is an unwillingness to 

comply with something that you already agreed 

to do . 

Q How can I agree, if I didn't know 

about it? You are making a - -

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor, 

asked and answered. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Do you believe that it is possible 

that a letter of correction, or a letter of 

warning, were not issued because the operator 

of M&R was a physician, and profiled as an 

easy target for fines, that I would not 

challenge the alleged violation, is that 

possible? 

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained, it is 

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DR. SELIG: Well, it goes to the 

intent. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig, there 

is prosecutorial discretion, among many other 

things, whether they bring an enforcement 

action against you, and not against the 

aircraft next to you, it is all prosecutorial 

discretion. 

And this is not an attempt to a 

statute. 

DR. SELIG: I'm going to go to --

I guess we are up to, I'm sorry, is it R-5? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I don't have R-5, 

I have 1, 2, 3, 4. 

there? 

right. 

DR. SELIG: You have four up 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry, you are 

(Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Respondent Exhibit No. ' R-4 for 

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identification.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, R-5 is the 

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identification.) 

BY DR. SELIG: 

You mentioned that the -- that Ms. 

Williams initiated this violation, based on 

the fact that Mr. Baker was employed by Flight 

Methods. 

So that was, really, the premise 

for initiation of this --

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Let him finish his 

question first. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q I mean, that is what it says on 

this document. Is that a true statement, even 

though it is written here on this document? 

A That is not a correc t statement. 

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that you just made. The action was not 

initiated because he was an employee of Flight 

Methods. 

Q Well, it says here, a review of 

FAA data bases, SPAS, I GET, also does not 

identify Edward Baker, III, as having an FAA 

approved drug and alcohol testing program. 

It says, before that, a review of 

the FAA data base did not reveal that Flight 

Methods has an FAA approved drug and alcohol 

testing program. 

A That is correct. And I actually 

conducted this research, with LaTonya, so I 

know exactly what it is that is being said. 

Because you said that Flight Methods was his 

employei", we were actually trying to figure 

out whether or not Flight Methods even had a 

program. 

Then the correction came 

that it was Air Methods, which we did verify 

that Air Methods did have it, which is 

irrelevant, anyway, because Mr. Baker was 

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working outside of the scope of his employment 

with .^ir Methods . 

But the initiation of this action 

had absolutely nothing to do with the fact 

that he worked anywhere else. But, rather, 

that the regulatory requirement was not met in 

that neither you, covered him in your program, 

nor did he have a drug program himself. 

Q Okay. So I still was required to 

have him on my drug program, even though I was 

in a moratorium? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know what a moratorium is? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q Okay. So my company was in 

moratorium. And I'm going to present to you, 

where my flight, my inspector basically, 

because I didn't pass my flight examination, 

during this divorce that I had, that that was 

when the operations were in moratorium, and 

suspended. 

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

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That mischaracterizes this document. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: There is nothing 

in evidence that if there is a question 

pending, ask the question. But nothing has 

been proffered for this. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q So you would agree that it may be 

a fruitless comment, or an inappropriate 

comment to make - - is that the right phrase? 

That being that I did no operations, and I 

wasn't qualified to do any operations, and the 

company was not authorized to do any 

operations, but then you are holding the 

belief that it is still proper to hold me to 

these regulation changes that were completely 

undisclosed to me. 

Is that what you premise? 

Q Your flight certificate was 

current and active. Dr. Selig. Then you were 

required to abide by the regulatory 

requirements for the drug and alcohol program. 

So, therefore, if you didn't want 

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your certificate current and active, you could 

have surrendered your certificate, and you 

didn't do any of those things because, 

obviously, there was no surrender of 

cert ificaTe. 

The only reason we visited you is 

because your certificate was current and 

active. 

Q Okay. But I just handed you a 

document that says that I'm unauthorized to 

fly part 135 operations. 

And then I'm going to give you 

another document, which is basically where the 

corporation was changed, during the divorce, 

September of 2008. 

So now we have a name change, and 

the financials have changed. Now, do you 

still believe that the operation was still 

active, even though the company changed, and 

everyching was changed for the corporation? 

A I absolutely believe that the 

company was still active. And now you have 

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This one has the first page - -

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, stop. Tell 

me what you are referring to. 

THE WITNESS: The previous one 

that 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I don't know 

what the previous one is. 

THE WITNESS: This one, because he 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: 

Respondent's 6 for identification. 

That is 

{Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Respondent Exhibit No. R-6 for 

identification.) 

THE WITNESS: So this one has 

nothing to do with your --

JUDGE GOODWIN: This one being 

Respondent's 6 for identification? 

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: It is called 

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Respondent's 6 for identification. 

THE WITNESS: Okay, Respondent's 6 

for identification, has nothing to do with 

whether or not your certificate is active, and 

operational. This has everything to do with 

you, personally, as your - - wich your, your, 

your own certificate, your personal air 

transport pilot certificate, or your personal 

medical certificate, it has nothing to do with 

your company's certificate. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q All right, and - -

A And then, if I may finish? The 

second one is something from the Department of 

the State. I don't know, really, that it has 

anything to do with the FAA. 

But in the FAA data base, you are 

still M&R Helicopters, your name change has 

not been approved, nor has it been processed 

by the FAA. 

So you are still MS^R Helicopters 

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with certificate number Mike, Romeo, 3, Alpha, 

020, kilo. 

Q Okay, so -- now, you are telling 

me that even though everything changed, the 

name, the structure, everything, that my 

operation specifications and compliance 

statement are current? Is that what you are 

telling me? 

A I don' t know the answer to that 

question. I can only tell you the facts, as 

I have stated them. You are still M&R 

Helicopters, still your certificate is valid 

and this letter has absolutely nothing to do 

with your 135 operation, but more so with your 

personal pilot's license. 

Q Okay, but that wasn't what I was 

told by my FAA inspectors. They told me once 

I change the name of the company the OpSpecs 

are no longer valid. 

A That is a FSDO issue, and not 

mine . 

Q And I have been rewri ting the 

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OpSpecs since that time. So if I don't even 

have current OpSpecs, how can my certificate 

be current ? 

If I don't have current OpSpecs, 

how can it be current? 

A 

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That is FSDO --

I wanted these ~- I'm confused. 

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

And, again, Ms. Lozada has already said that 

he has current OpSpecs. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

0 Now, Ms. Lozada, you said that if 

the certificate is still under M&R 

Helicopters. Well, I applied for a change of 

name when I was, and I have certification that 

the name has changed. 

So it seems like not only has it 

been, so there are multiple errors in this 

certificate, but it is not in M&R Helicopters, 

It is in - -

MR. RALEY: Objection , Your Honor. 

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BY DR. SELIG: 

Q -- DR Helicopters. 

-MR. RALEY: It assum.es facts not 

in evidence. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Wel 1, is that a 

question? You are arguing with the witness, 

Dr. Selig. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Okay, my question is --

JUDGE GOODWIN: It doesn't help, 

it doesn't help the Court to argue with the 

witness. The issue in this case is whether an 

entity having an alcohol program, an active 

program. 

You are not charged with all of 

che peripheral issues. Look at the complaint, 

that is what the charge is. 

DR. SELIG: Well, everything is 

based on the fact that the certificate was 

inactive, that is really what is about. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: The witness has 

answered that question. 

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DR. SELIG: Okay, but there was 

error with the process. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: She has answered 

the question that you posed. Her statement was 

that your certificate was in M&R, the fact 

that you had other issues with FSDO, that is 

not her area of expertise, it is a different 

regulatory area. You are not charged with 

that . 

DR. SELIG: But it is all 

contingent of violation, because if the 

operation was not active, the whole thing is 

moot . 

JUDGE GOODWIN: It is very simple. 

If there is a charge against the certificate 

holder, I haven't heard one piece of evidence 

that the certificate v;as changed during that 

period of time. 

DR. SELIG: Well, the OpSpecs are 

being rewritten, I didn't have current 

OpSpecs. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I don' t car e abou t 

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DR. SELIG: Well, the document 

that she referenced, that A44 9, becomes 

invalid. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, that is a 

determination that the Court will make. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Now, you keep mentioning about 

these regulations, and we have talked about 

how they have changed over, and over, and over 

again, recodified, relocated. 

Now, this is the referenced 

regulations that - -

COURT REPORTER: If you are not in 

front of a microphone, I can't record what you 

are saying. So you can walk, and then talk in 

front of a microphone. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q What I have given you are, in one 

of many process of the codes changing, 

relocating on different websites to the point 

where it has been reserved and removed. 

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So you are violating -- is it 

true, do you agree that this regulation is 

somewhat hard to track, it is sort of like a 

moving target? 

Do you agree that it keeps moving 

around and that it would be impossible to 

really be compliant with it? 

A I disagree. 

Q You disagree, okay. So I didn't 

know about it, it keeps revolving --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig, you are 

arguing with the witness, you asked a 

question, and she answered it. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q It appears that - -

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Sel ig, you 

have to stay near the microphone. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Tell me, tell me, so what this 

boils down to, if I understand it, correct me 

if I'm incorrect, that you believe that you 

are entitled to violate me under these 

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stipulations, based purely on having a 

certificate, whether it is inactive or not, 

whether I perform flights or not, whether or 

not the OpSpecs are current or not? 

Is that the basic premise, you are 

stating here, just the fact that on some 

remote website it says that this certificate 

is active, even if it is on the wrong name, 

because it has been changed. 

Do you believe that the Agency 

should aggressively pursue this complaint? 

A Dr. Selig, we are here, today, 

because you committed a violation of the 

regulations. Your OpSpecs are current. A 

name change does not invalidate your 

requirement to fulfill the requirements of the 

FAA under your certificate number. 

Because you are not changing your 

certificate number, you are not changing the 

certificate, you are only making a name 

change. 

So I'm sorry but I have to 

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disagree with everything that you said. 

0 Okay. Now, - - so I guess you are 

pleading that somehow I'm ignorant of the law 

and, therefore, I should be violated. Is that 

basically what you are saying? 

A I'm not saying --

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q All right. Now, have you ever 

heard, or have cas e law, that specifically 

allows this kind of violation, when someone 

has not flown any flights during the violation 

period? 

Do you have any case law to that 

effect? 

A I'm not an attorney, I'm not --

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig, there 

is no evidence that she has any legal 

training, and that is not relevant. 

Sustained. 

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BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Okay, have you ever heard of a 

case Chat has been prosecuted, when chere are 

absolutely no flights during the violation 

period? 

A Have I heard? I know what we have 

done, as my inspectors, when I was an 

inspector, are you asking me if we have ever 

cited somebody being out of compliance for a 

very similar situation? 

Q Not cited, have you been 

successful in prosecuting an operation that 

did no flights during their cited violation? 

A In order for me to answer that 

question I would have had to have been 

involved in those cases. So I can tell you 

that we, if we find this situation, and we 

have in the past, we address this matter in 

exactly the same way. 

We review it, we provide an LOI, 

we wait for the response, we review all of the 

evidence, we consider the totality of the 

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circumstances, and then we determine whether 

or not we forward it to legal, or whether we 

handle it administratively. 

There have been many that we have 

forwarded to legal, and many that we handled 

administratively. It just depends on the 

specific issues. 

In this case we decided to go 

legal, and we are here. But I don't know what 

may happen in other courtrooms. I only know 

what we are doing here. 

Q So basically you are saying that 

ic is never, as far as you know, it has never 

been successfully prosecuted? 

A I did not say that. 

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. Dr. 

Selig, the record will speak for her. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Do you believe that, assuming 

argumento, that even if proper notification 

was given, and all the other parameters were 

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properly in place, in order to permit a 

violation, do you think any kind of financial, 

any fine would be allowed, if the company had 

negative -- had been basically operating at a 

loss for most of the years? 

A That is not my area. 

Q Okay. 

A I said that I forward the legal 

case to headquarters, and that is where they 

determine the penalties there, I don't do 

that . 

Q Do you agree that there are new 

notification procedures now available in the 

FAA? MR. RALEY: Obj ection, 

relevance. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

DR. SELIG: Can I give the 

relevance? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: No, the Court has 

ruled, let's move on. 

DR. SELIG: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You ca n argu e i t 

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in the briefs, but I'm not going to allow this 

witness to answer it. 

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Do you agree that the notification 

process, since this violation, has 

subsequently changed to a different procedure? 

MR. RALEY: Objection, relevance. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q If an operator, let's say an 

operator, I'm sorry, a mechanic performs a 

service, and without being on the drug 

program, in effect that aircraft was not used, 

but that service was repeated, with proper, 

you know, with that person being on the drug 

program, but it wasn't flown. 

Would that still be merit for a 

violation? 

A Can you repeat that? 

Q Let' s say that Mr. Baker did a 

rotor balance, and he wasn't on, and I didn't 

know about it, that he wasn't on my particular 

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drug program. 

But then he repeated that exact 

same thing, when he was on it. But, in the 

interim, the aircraft was not flown? 

A So can I just rephrase your 

question so that I can see if I understood it? 

The first thing that he did, he was not in a 

program, the second he was, is that what you 

are saying? 

Q Yes, and in the interim the 

aircraft was not flown. 

A The fact that the aircraft has 

flov/n or not has absolutely no bearing on the 

safety-sensitive work performed, because if 

your certificate was active, then it was just 

fortuitous that it wasn't flown. 

So the first one would still be a 

violation, no matter how you slice it. And the 

second one, if he was in a program, in your 

program, or his own program, like the 

regulation required, then there wouldn't be --

Q So you are basically saying that 

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if Mr. Baker did a rotor balance on day one, 

and the next --s o that was a violation. But 

if repeated that on day two, it would still be 

a violation, even if it is one day away? 

A I don't think that is what I said. 

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Well, I'm characterizing what you 

said. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig, --

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q You are basically saying ~-

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig, I'm not 

interested in your characterization. I will 

review the transcript. 

DR. SELIG: Yes, sir. Yes, Your 

Honor. I think I have completed my 

questioning. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect? 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor, just 

a couple. 

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REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Ms. Lozada, are part 119 

certificate holders required to know the 

requirements contained within the regulations? 

A Yes, they are. 

Q Where are the employer or an 

employee definitions contained, with regard to 

the drug and alcohol testing program in the 

regulacions? 

A At the beginning of the 

regulations. 

Q What specifically, what 

regulations? 

A In the definition section. Back 

then it was in part 121, and now in part 120. 

Q Are those regulations referenced 

on the document in A-2, the A449? 

A Yes. 

Q Thank you. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any furthe r 

question s of this witness ? 

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DR. SELIG: No. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Ms. Lozada, I am 

going to instruct you not discuss your 

testimony with anybody prior to the conclusion 

of the hearing. The Court does not see any 

further need of this witness, the witness is 

free to go. 

MR. RALEY: Your Honor, I would 

like to reserve her for rebuttal purposes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: That is your call. 

MR. RALEY: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: For the record, 

the Court doesn't need the witness. 

THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's do this. It 

is 2:11, let's take a five minute recess. 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor. 

record. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: We are off the 

(Whereupon, t he above - ent i 11ed 

matter went off the record at 2:11 

p.m. and went back on the record 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: On the record. 

Call vour next witness? 

please. 

Court? 

MR. RALEY: Ms. Amy Erankel, 

DR. SELIG: May it please the 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm thinking of a 

preliminary thought. Let's do this, what is 

your objection? 

DR. SELIG: My objection is that I 

requested interrogatory information, with full 

detail of all witnesses that he was going to 

present, a statement of matters concerned, 

documents, evidence that he was going to 

submit. None of that was submitted to me. 

So this is the first time I' m 

hearing of this patient, excuse me, of this 

client, this witness, excuse me. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Only if you will 

allow me to refer to some of your> witnesses as 

clients, as opposed to patients, Dr. Selig. 

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Let' s get to the harm of this . 

Was he notified, during discovery, of the 

appearance of this witness? 

MR. RALEY: August 25th, 2011. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And was he 

notified of the substance of her testimony? 

MR. RALEY: He was. 

DR. SELIG: I didn't see, I don't 

remember getting that. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don't you show 

that to Dr. Selig? And, in the meantime, I 

will swear the witness. 

By the way, I'm going to authorize 

the Court Reporter to throw things at anyone 

who walks away from the microphone. 

Whereupon, 

AMY FRANKEL 

was called as a witness by Counsel for the 

Complainant and, having been duly sworn, 

assumed the witness stand, was examined and 

testified as follows: 

DR. SELIG: I never got this 

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document, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that your 

address on the top of the correspondence? 

fax. 

numbe^r? 

this one. 

DR. SELIG: It is some kind of a 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that your fax 

DR. SELIG: August -- I never got 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Mr. Raley, proffer 

what you are showing Dr. Selig. The 

Complainant's response to Respondent's 

discovery request, and this was - -

MR. RALEY: The certificate is 

there, it is the last page. Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And, Mr. Raley, 

you are an Officer of the Court? 

MR. RALEY: Yes, I am. Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You need to step 

back by the microphone. 

DR. SELIG: I'm in error. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

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DR. SELIG: I did see this. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you, Dr. 

Selig, I appreciate it. 

DR. SELIG: Can we have her 

tomorrow, so that I can review things --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, we have the 

witne^ss here, and we can start. 

DR. SELIG: I could have Mr. Baker 

go and then if she can come tomorrow, and then 

I can prepare for her. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, what we can 

do is we can do direct today, and we can do 

the cross tomorrow, and take Mr. Baker. The 

witness is here. 

There was an objection to her 

testimony, Dr. Selig has represented, and I 

appreciate that. Dr. Selig, you represented 

that you did, in fact, get the proffered 

testimony, so the objection is overruled. 

Would you please state your name, 

for the record, and spell your first and last 

name? 

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THE WITNESS: My name is Amy, A-MY, Frankel, F-R~A-N-K-E-L, as in lima. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. RALEY: 

0 Good afternoon, Ms. Frankel. 

.A Good afternoon. 

0 Are you currently employed? 

A Yes . 

Q Where ar e you employed? 

A Th e Federa l Aviatio n 

Administration . 

Q What is your job title at the 

Federal Aviation Administration? 

A Currently I'm on a detail in 

aviation safety technical specialist, with the 

office of audit and evaluation. 

Q Prior to -- at what point did you 

begin this detail, at what time? 

A November of 2011. 

Q Prior to this detail, where were 

you employed? 

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A The drug abatement division. 

Q For how long were you employed 

with the drug abatement division? 

A For over seven years. 

Q And, just to be clear, the drug 

abatement division of the Federal Aviation 

Administration, is that correct? 

A Yes . 

Q For over seven years. What was 

your job title at the, in the drug abatement 

division? 

A I was the field operations branch 

manager. 

Q What did your job duties include 

as the field operations branch manager? 

A My job duties included reviewing 

submitted legal cases, and determining 

recommendation for civil penalties, scheduling 

of sanctions, accepting voluntary disclosure. 

Q How are you familiar with this 

case? 

A I reviewed this case when i t 

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arrived to my branch at headquarters. 

Q And by review what do you mean? 

A The case was forwarded, I reviewed 

the information that was provided, the LOI, 

the evidence that was collected during the 

inspection. 

Q I'd like to turn your attention to 

some of the regulatory questions at issue in 

this case. Do appendices I and J of Part 120, 

as in effect in 2008, define the term 

employer? 

A Yes 

Q What is an employer under those 

regulat ions? 

A An employer is a 119 certificate 

holder that has authorization to perform 135 

operations. 

Q Was the Respondent an employer 

under the regulations? 

A Yes . 

Q Do appendices I and J, part 121, 

as in effec t of the time of the violations, 

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define the term employee, or covered employee? 

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A Yes. 

Q What is an employee under the 

regulations? 

A An employee is a safety-sensitive 

employee, someone who was hired to perform 

safety-sensitive functions, either directly or 

by contract. 

Q 

performed? 

And for whom are those functions 

A For an employer. 

Q Were the functions that Mr. Baker 

was performing considered safety-sensitive? 

A Yes. 

Q Why? 

A Because they were maintenance or 

preventive maintenance. 

Q Was Mr. Baker an employee of 

Respondent, under the regulations? 

A Yes . 

Q Why? 

A Because he performed maintenance 

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or preventive maintenance on an aircraft that 

was under MS^R' s 135 certificate. 

Q Have you heard of the term 

moonlighting, or moonlighter? 

A I have. 

0 What is moonlighting? 

A Moonlighting is when an employee 

has a full-time position, but works elsewhere, 

to work on his off hours. 

Q V-Jhat effect, if any, does Mr. 

Baker's status as a moonlighter have on this 

hearing, on this case? 

A It has no effect. 

Q Why? 

A Because there is no moonlighting 

provision under the regulations. 

Q I'd like to show you what is being 

offered as Complainant's exhibit A-11. 

{Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Complainant Exhibit No. 11 for 

identification.) 

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BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Do you recognize this document? 

A Yes. 

0 What is this document? 

A This is the Federal Register Final 

Rule from January 12th, 2004, for the drug and 

alcohol program for the FAA. 

Q Does this document address the 

moonlighting provision? 

A Yes. 

Q I'd like to direct your attention 

to page 1841 of A-11, the top left-hand 

paragraph, beginning on February 28th. 

A Yes . 

Q Does this paragraph address the 

notice of proposed rulemaking that was issued 

on February 28th, 2002? 

A Yes, it does. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: While she is 

looking at that, Mr. Raley, does what you've 

given the Court, the Federal Register volume 

69, number 7, pages 1840 through 1860, are all 

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the pages here, so I don't have to go through 

them? 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Then I'm not going 

to repaginate. What we will do is call the 

first page is, obviously, the cover sheet of 

the Federal Register Part 4, Department of 

Transportation, 14 CFR Part 121, dated January 

12th, 2004. 

And the first pagination begins at 

page 1840 of the Federal Register, and 

continues through 1860. Sir, what was the 

page that you made reference to? 

MR. RALEY: I'm sorry, it is 1841. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. And 

the question was, was there something here 

having to do with moonlighting? 

MR. RALEY: Basically the question 

was, does this paragraph discuss the Notice of 

Proposed Rulemaking - -

JUDGE GOODWIN: Which paragraph? 

MR. RALEY: The first paragraph on the top 

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left corner, beginning on February 28th, 2002. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Can the witness 

answer the question? 

THE WITNESS: Yes, it does . 

JUDGE GOODWIN: What does it say? 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Go ahead and read it 

Read it? 

Yes. 

On February 28th, 2002, the FAA 

published a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking 

(NPRM) Notice 02-04(67 FR 9365). We proposed 

clarifying regulatory language, increasing 

consistency between the antidrug and alcohol 

misuse prevention program regulations, where 

possible, and eliminating regulatory 

provisions chat were no longer appropriate. 

We proposed these changes to 

improve safety and lessen administrative 

burden. The comment period for Notice 02-04 

was scheduled to close May 29th, 2002, but was 

extended until Julv 29th, 2002, as a result of 

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public request for extension. 

Should I continue? 

Q No, that is fine. 

MR. RALEY: Unless Your Honor --

JUDGE GOODWIN: No. 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q This notice was published on what 

date? This rule, I'm sorry, this rule was 

published on what date? 

A This rule was published on January 

24th, I'm sorry, excuse me, January 12 th, 

2004 . 

Q And I' d like to draw your 

attention to page 1840. 

A Okay. 

0 Midway down the first column, the 

heading is dates. Could you just please read 

what it says there? 

A .Dates: These amendments become 

effective February 11th, 2004. 

Q Thank you. I'd like to direct 

your attention, again, to page 1841. 

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A Yes . 

Q In the definition section, in the 

table, about midway down through the page, did 

the table list the principal changes to 

appendix I of the drug testing regulations, 

does this address any changes to the employer 

or employee definition? 

A Yes. 

Q What does - - what changes were 

made to the employer definition? 

A It says, changes the definition of 

employer to clarify that employer may use a 

contract employee to perform safety-sensitive 

function, if the contract employee is included 

in the 1, employer's FAA-mandated antidrug 

program. 

Or, 2, contractor's FAA-mandated 

antidrug program, while performing a safetysensitive function on behalf of that 

contractor, i.e., within the scope of 

employment with the contractor. 

Q Thank you. 

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record, we are looking at the table of page 

1841, the banner is Principal Changes 

Appendix 1 (Drug Testing). 

And if you drop down three lines, 

that is where you --

MR. RALEY: And just for the 

record - -

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm doing it for 

purpose of the record. 

MR. RALEY: Just a quick note, 

that is actually Appendix I, it refers to 

Appendix I, part 121. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, it could be 

one , it could be an I. 

MR. RALEY; Yes, sir. 

BY MR. RALEY: 

0 I'd now like to show you what --

MR. RALEY: At this time I would 

like to move that Complainant's Exhibit A-11 

be entered into evidence. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig, any 

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obj ect ion? 

DR. SELIG: Only from the regard 

that this document does not disclose any kind 

of procedure for notification to the affected 

oarties. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

Appendix I, for identification, is received 

into evidence. The Court is also taking 

judicial notice. 

{The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Complainant 

Exhibit No. A-11 was admitted in 

evidence.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Let me show you what has been 

marked as Complainant's exhibit A-12. 

(Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Complainant Exhibit No. A-12 for 

identification.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

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Q Ms. Frankel, do you recognize this 

document? 

A I do. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Before you proceed 

I'm going to ask you, again, .Mr. Raley, what 

you have given the Court is, -- at the top it 

says Federal Register Volume 74. Number 92, 

dated Thursday, May 14th, 2009. 

The first pagination number is 

22649, the last page is 22668. Are all the 

pages contained herein? 

MR. RALEY; Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: It is marked for 

identification. 

MR. RALEY: Just one second. Your 

Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

(Pause . ) 

DR. SELIG: May it please the 

Court? 

of whack? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Is something out 

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DR. SELIG: The date of Chis 

document is after the violation date, it is 

not pertinent to --

JUDGE GOODWIN: There is no 

question, the time to object is when it is 

offered for evidence, and address it at that 

t ime . 

DR. SELIG: I'm sorry. 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q What is this document, Ms 

Frankel? 

A This is the Federal Register for 

drug abatement, for the FAA. It is a final 

rule regarding the combination of what used to 

be Part 121, Appendices I and J, into its own 

part, to part 120 . 

Q And what is the date of this 

document? 

A This date is Thursday, May 14th, 

2009 . 

Q I'd like to direct your attention 

midway down the center column, on page 22649. 

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DR. SELIG; Your Honor, I object. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: There is no 

question pending. 

DR. SELIG: It is irrelevant. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: There is nothing 

pending. Dr. Selig. Go ahead, counsel. 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Could you please read what it says 

after summary? 

A Yes. Summary. This action amends 

the FAA's drug and alcohol regulation, to 

place them in a new part . The FAA is not 

making any substantive changes to the drug and 

alcohol regulations in this rulemaking. 

MR. RALEY: At this time I would 

like to offer Complainant's A-12 into 

evidence. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig? 

DR. SELIG: Objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. It 

goes to weight. Dr. Selig. 

DR. SELIG: I'm sorry? 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Your objection 

goes to the weight the Court will give it. 

DR. SELIG: Well, I guess --

JUDGE GOODWIN: It is noted that 

it is after the date of the violation. 

However the summary says that all they have 

done is compile them into one reg. 

Your objection goes to the weight 

the Court will give the evidence, not whether 

ic is admissible. 

DR. SELIG: If it may please the 

Court, comment? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: No, the objection 

is overruled. Go ahead, counsel. 

MR. RALEY: I move that - -

JUDGE GOODWIN: It has already 

been received in evidence. 

(The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Complainant 

Exhibit No. A-12 was admitted in 

evidence.) 

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MR. RALEY: Thank you. Your Honor 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Ms. Frankel, was Mr. Baker under 

Respondent's drug or alcohol testing program, 

at the time of the violation? 

A No. 

Q Was Mr. Baker under his own drug 

or alcohol testing violation, at the time that 

the program --at the time of the violation? 

I'm sorry, let me say that again. 

Was Mr. Baker under his own drug or alcohol 

testing program, at the time of the violation? 

A No. 

Q I'd like to show you what is being 

marked as Complainant's Exhibit A-13. 

(Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Complainant Exhibit No. A-13 for 

identification.} 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q 

A 

Do you recognize this document? 

I do . 

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0 What is this document? 

A This document is a legal 

interpretation, based on questions that were 

brought forth from a 135 certificate holder. 

Q What relevance, if any, does this 

have in this matter, or does this document 

have any relevance in this matter? 

A It does. 

Q What is that? 

A This document states that -- one 

moment, please. 

(Witness reviews document.) 

THE WITNESS: This document, in 

one part, this document states that the 

certificate holder's maintenance -- about the 

certificate holder's maintenance program. 

And how the maintenance, of an 

aircraft that is on a Part 135 certificate, 

must be held to a 135 certificate standards, 

even if it is not being flown as a Part 135. 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Can you just point, specifically. 

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1 in the document, where it talks about this? 

2 A On the first page, where -- the 

3 f irsc time in italics, where it says, our 

4 answer. An aircraft that is listed on the 

5 operation specifications of a certificate 

6 holder conducting flights under Title 14, Code 

7 of Federal Regulations, Part 135, must be 

S maintained under the certificate holder's 

9 maintenance program. 

10 That such an aircraft is owned and 

11 periodically operated under (14 CFR) Part 91, 

12 by a person other than the certificate-holder, 

13 does not lessen that obligation in any way. 

14 Q Does this document address 

15 maintenance performed, non-emergency 

16 maintenance performed by a mechanic, or a 

17 person not meeting the drug and alcohol 

18 testing regulations? 

19 A I'm sorry, can you repeat the 

20 question? Q Does this document 

21 address what would happen if there is a 

22 violation, if non-emergency maintenance was 

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performed on aircraft, by a person not meeting 

the drug and alcohol testing requirements? 

A It does. 

0 And what does i t say ? 

A On the second page, about a little 

bit more than halfway down, the sentence 

begins with absent. 

Absent the circumstances described 

in section 135.251(c), which is the emergency 

maintenance, any such maintenance would be a 

violation. 

The violation would occur at the 

time such maintenance is performed, and 

whether the aircraft is flown is not relevant. 

Q And, just for the sake of the 

record, could you please read the question 

that that answer addresses? 

A Yes. 

Q It is question number 3, if an 

(sic) FAR 135 aircraft had maintenance done by 

a mechanic that does not meet the drug and 

alcohol requirements of FAR 135, and 121, is 

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that FAR 135 operator in violation of FAR 135 

and 121, if he does not, underlined, fly? If 

yes, why? 

Q How is that applicable here? 

A It is applicable here because 

maintenance was performed on an aircraft that 

Was on M&R's 135 certificate, although it was 

not flown for Part 135 after the maintenance 

Was done. 

Q And according to this 

interpretation, would that be a violation? 

A Yes . 

MR. RALEY: At this time I would 

like to move that Complainant's Exhibit A-13 

be admitted into evidence. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig, an y 

objection? 

DR. SELIG: I object because, 

first of all, this document is from 2006. In 

2006 I guess the new regulation would be in. 

But the persons maintaining this aircraft were 

under Part 135 -- I'm sorry, were not on any 

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drug program, of any kind. 

Where Mr. Baker was on a drug 

program. So it is not an applicable case 

scenario. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Obj ection 

overruled. Agency's 13 for identification is 

received into evidence as Agency's 13. 

(The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Complainant 

Exhibit No. 13 was admitted in 

evidence.) 

Q 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Ms. Frankel, now I would like to 

discuss, with you, the general sanction 

determination. 

You indicated, earlier, that you 

were involved in the determination of the 

sanction in this case, is that correct? 

A Yes . 

Q I' d lik e to shov; you what is now 

being marked as A-14, Complainant's Exhibit A-

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14. It is an excerpt of the 2150.3B Sanction 

Guidance. 

(Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Complainant Exhibit No. A-14 for 

identification.} 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Do you recognize this document, 

Ms. Frankel? 

A 

0 

A 

Chapter 7? 

I do. 

What is this document? 

This is a - -

JUDGE GOODWIN: Is this the entire 

MR. RALEY: No, it is not. Your 

Honor. This is relevant excerpts. I do have 

the entire 2150.3B if you would like to have 

It -~ 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll adjust that 

once we get there. 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor 

THE WITNESS: This is an excerpt 

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from 2150.3B, which is our Guidance, Sanction 

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Guidance. 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Is it publicly available? 

A Yes, online. 

Q In general how do you determine 

the sanction in cases such as this? 

A In general we look at the business 

that we are looking at, and we look at the 

violation that the business has. 

Q Turning to page B-3, and I will 

give you a moment to get there. 

A Okay. 

Q It is about two-thirds of the way 

through this pile of paper. 

A Okay. 

Q What type of entity was 

Respondent? 

A The Respondent was a group 4 

ent ity. 

Q Why was Respondent a group 4 

entity? 

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A A group 4 entity is a small 

business, which is an operator, that operates 

under part 135 with no more than five pilots, 

and no more than five aircraft. 

Q Does the FAA consider whether an 

entity is a small business? 

A 

Q 

Yes. 

How? 

A By the Small Business 

Administration, and how much revenue it takes, 

and how many employees it has. 

Q Now, turning to page B-4, what is 

the sanction range for a group 4 operator? 

A For a group 4 operator a minimum, 

something that would fall under the minimum 

violations, would be from 550 dollars to 2,199 

dollars. 

Moderate is 2,200 dollars, to 

4,399 dollars. And a maximum is a 4,400 

dollars to 11,000 dollars. 

Q 

A 

Turnin g t o page B-31 

Yes . 

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case : 9 

A The violation in this case would 

be a maximum civil penalty. 

Q And why is that? 

A Because it was failure to include 

a safety-sensitive employee in an FAA-mandated 

drug and alcohol testing program. 

Q And, for the record, you are 

reading from page B-31, under Figure 5, excuse 

me, B-5-b, with the heading coverage? 

Yes. 

And it is the sub 1, is that 

A 

Q 

correct? 

A Yes. 

MR. RALEY: At this time I would 

like to move to have Complainant's Exhibit A14 entered into evidence. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm not going to 

admit, and here is why. It is not the entire 

regulation, in its totality. I will take 

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judicial notice of 2150.3B, which was in 

force, and in existence, at the time of the 

incident in question. 

MR. RALEY: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I don't want to 

have to drag a three inch thing. So the Court 

will certainly take judicial notice of the 

sanction tables, the Court has worked with the 

sanction tables. 

And, in fairness to Respondent it 

is only fair that if a portion of the table, 

and not in its entirety, admitted into 

evidence, even though the Court have excluded, 

it probably isn't relevant. 

MR. RALEY; Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So, Dr. Selig, I 

will sustain your objection to the admission 

of this, but the Court will take judicial 

notice. 

Q 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Were there any mitigating, or 

aggravating factors in this case? 

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Yes. 

What were those factors? 

A It was an aggravating factor that 

performance was done on an aircraft by a 

safety-sensitive employee, that was not 

covered under a drug and alcohol program under 

M&R drug and alcohol program. 

Q Specifically what performance? 

A The performance that Mr. Baker 

provided. 

Q What was the initial sanction in 

this case? 

A The initial sanction was 5,400 

dollars. Q After this case was 

initiated, was it adjusted? 

A Yes. 

Q Why? 

A There were some stale violations. 

Q What is the sanctio n the FAA seeks 

to impose here? 

A 4,400 dollars. 

Q Is the sanctio n tha t the F7\A seeks 

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to impose here, in accordance with the 

Sanction Guidance? 

A Yes. 

Q Does the FAA consider inability to 

pay? 

A Yes. 

0 What documents does the FAA 

require to make the determination of inability 

to pay? 

A We request three years of federal 

income tax returns. 

MR. RALEY: That is all I have at 

this time. Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig, do you 

want to cross-examine this witness now, or do 

you want to put Mr. Baker on? 

Mr. Raley, is this the conclusion 

of your case, absent rebuttal? 

MR. RALEY: Your Honor, it is. We 

have, we reserve a rebuttal witness, depending 

on Dr. Selig's testimony, at this time. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig, in lieu 

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of that, what the FAA is saying is that this 

is his last witness in his- case-in-chief . 

Which means at this point he would rest, if 

you call witnesses, he may recall rebuttal 

witnesses. 

Now, in lieu of your earlier 

Comment, do you want to cross-examine this 

vyitness now, or would you prefer that I excuse 

this witness, and recall her first thing in 

the morning? 

DR. SELIG: Yes, please. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: All right . And 

then you would put on Mr. Baker, then? 

DR. SELIG: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. Raley, 

do you have any objection to that? All I'm 

doing is allowing him to start his crossexamination first thing in the morning. 

You will, obviously, have a chance 

to redirect in the morning, and that doesn't 

impact your ability to cover both witnesses. 

I know it is a little bit -- but 

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it is an administrative hearing, I can pretty 

much do anything I want to. 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Within the context 

of rules and regulations. 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor, and 

that will be fine. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: What I'm trying to 

do is to be fair to Dr. Selig, because he may 

have had the document but, apparently, 

overlooked it. And I think it is a fair way 

to proceed. I don't think it is any prejudice 

to you. 

It may be a prejudice to the 

witness, because she can't do anything until 

we know what is going to happen. 

All right then, Ms. Frankel, I'm 

going to excuse you today. I'm going to 

instruct you that you are not to discuss your 

testimony with anyone. 

At 9 o'clock tomorrow morning I 

would like you to reappear in the Court, and 

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if we concluded Dr. Selig's witness, if we 

concluded, I will ask you to just be up here 

again, and we v/ill go from there. 

And I think that you can step 

down . 

THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So at this point, 

had the cross taken place, and the redirect 

taken place, that would be the FAA's case, am 

I correct? 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Without 

prejudice to either, procedurally, Dr. Selig 

if you want to, at this point, I will allow 

you to call Mr. Baker. 

DR. SELIG: Thank you, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sure he wants 

to stick around tomorrow. 

Whei'eupon, 

EDWARD L. BAKER 

v/as called as a witness by the Representative 

for the Respondent and, having been duly 

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sworn, assumed the witness stand, was examined 

and testified as follows: 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I ask you to state 

your name for the record, and spell your first 

and last name. 

THE WITNESS: My name is Edward L. 

Baker, III. E-D-W-A-R-D, L as in lima. Baker, 

B-A-K-E-R, III . 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig? 

DR. SELIG: Thank you. 

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Mr. Baker, how long have you - -

how long is your experience with both military 

and civilian aviation, your experience, and 

how far does it date back? 

A I received my military aviation 

training in 1980, as a pilot, and involved 

with maintenance at the time. And then as I 

left active duty, and joined the National 

Guard, I'm still involved with aviation 

maintenance, to this date, as a maintenance 

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officer for the New Jersey National Guard. 

And I mentor many of the young 

mechanics down there. I received my civilian 

pilot's license in 1984, and my airframe and 

power plant mechanics rating, from 

Peterborough School in 1987. 

Q Okay, are you --

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry, was 

that your A&P? 

THE WITNESS; Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: In 1987? 

THE WITNESS: In 1987. 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Have you ever served in a 

supervisory role with the military? 

A Yes, I'm . currently in a 

supervisory role there, with the National 

Guard, as a maintenance officer. 

Q Are you in a drug program for the 

National Guard? 

A Yes, I am. All military personnel 

are under a drug abatement program. 

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Q And how far does that date back? 

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In 1980? 

In 1977. 

Q In '77, okay. Have you 

continuously been on a drug and alcohol 

program through your civilian military -- your 

civilian employment history? 

A Yes, every, well, with the 

exception of a short stint as a pilot and 

mechanic for a Part 91 radio traffic patrol 

operator, for about six years, all other times 

I was under -- working for Part 135 operators. 

Helicopters, Incorporated, and AirMed/Keystone 

and Air Methods. 

And at all those times I was under 

a drug abatement program. I don't recall when 

I have not been under a drug abatement program 

of some form or another. 

Q Have you heard anything about, or 

ever been notified, in any way, that you 

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needed to be on a separate drug and alcohol 

program other than your full time employer, 

during your freelance maintenance experiences? 

A I gained that as under the 

requirement of the operator who was requesting 

my services, or the employer at the time, be 

it Air Methods, or Helicopters, Incorporated. 

Their drug abatement manager, who 

managed the program, and dictated the 

requirements, as a mechanic, my sole 

responsibility is making sure that my 

maintenance manuals, and data that I use to 

perform that maintenanc e i s current, and 

accurate, and up to date. 

So I have never had a concern. I 

understand - - I was asked, early on, when I 

was approached to do maintenance, that I was 

required to be on a drug abatement program for 

at least one of my employers. 

Q Okay. Have you ever heard of any 

other AScP mechanic needing to be on a separate 

program, while working on any small company's 

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aircraft? 

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who do moonlight maintenance, as you are 

defining it here, or work for other operators, 

and perform maintenance on other aircraft. 

Mostly part 91 aircraft. This is, 

really, the first time I have worked outside 

a 135 operator, other than one that had I' m 

already under their certificate. 

Q Have you ever been notified, or 

heard elsewhere, about any website that posted 

changed regulations affecting this matter? 

A No. 

Q As soon as M&R heard of this new 

requirement, did the company then place you, 

immediately, on their already existing 

program, in addition to your full-time 

employer's program? AYes, sir. 

Q In your 25 years of being a 

professional pilot, and an A&P mechanic, have 

you ever had a positive testing result? 

A No. 

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0 In your 25 years of either being a 

professional pilot, or an A&P mechanic, have 

you ever refused a random drug test? 

A No. 

Q In your 25 years of being a 

professional pilot, and an A&P mechanic, have 

you ever had an incident, or an accident, with 

regard to your capacity to pilot or be an A&P 

mechanic? 

A No. 

Q Do you believe that the - - that 

there was an inadequate notification process 

concerning these changed regulations, that no 

one knew about, that the FAA didn't know 

about, that Mr. Roots didn't know about, the 

drug abatement officer --

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

DR. SELIG: Those are all the 

questions I have. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 

DR. SELIG: That is al l the 

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examination? 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Mr. Baker, on July 24th, 2008, you 

performed maintenance work on aircraft 

November 98 Charlie, Mike, correct? 

A I -- at the time I didn't perform 

any actual physical maintenance on it, I 

merely wrote the -- Dr. Selig had a mechanic 

for the airport authority performing 

maincenance, or performing the check. 

At that time i was down at 

Allentown Airport, for my company. Air 

Methods, doing maintenance swipes, and 

maintenance work for our EC-135. 

I observed them on the ramp doing 

maintenance, or doing a track and balance, and 

at that time I walked over to say hello, and 

see what they were doing. 

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The mechanic did not have, he had 

the Chadwick unit hooked up properly, but he 

didn't know how to use it. And I'm familiar 

wich the unit, so I looked at the readings, 

and then documented the ratings. 

But I did no physical maintenance 

on that aircraft other than document the 

readings for the Chadwick, indicating that the 

aircraft was within normal safe operating 

limits for vibration analysis. 

Q To be clear, exhibit A-4, that is 

in front of you there -- one second. 

(Pause . ) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q On exhibit A-4, that is your 

signature under the work performed? 

A Yes, it is. 

Q And that work performed was 

maintenance or preventive maintenance in 

nature, correct? 

A I guess you could consider it 

that. It was a vibration balance check, in 

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accordance with the Chadwick. 

Q You performed this work in your 

capacity as an independent contractor, 

correct? 

A I guess you could say that. 

Q Were you paid directly for this 

work? 

A Yes, I was. 

Q Did you do this work on behalf of 

Air Methods? 

A No. 

Q Did you do this work on behalf of 

the National Guard? 

A No. 

Q Was either Air Methods or the 

National Guard, paid for this work? 

A No. 

Q On July 24th, 2008, you didn't 

have your own DOT required drug and alcohol 

testing program? 

A No. 

0 On July 24th, 2008, you were not 

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under Respondent's drug and alcohol testing 

program, correct? 

A No. 

MR. RALEY: That is all I have, 

Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect, Dr. 

Selig? That would be, you can ask him 

questions based upon the questions in crossexamination . 

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q When you performed this work on 

the aircraft, you believed that you were 

covered under your own drug and alcohol 

program under the pre-2004 February provisions 

at --

question. 

MR. RALEY: Objection, leading. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Let him finish the 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q The pre-2 004 regulations, which 

would have allowed you to perform this as you 

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MR. RALEY: Objection, leading. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: It is leading, I 

will allow it. Overruled. 

THE WITNESS: My understanding of 

the regulations, and being unaware of any of 

the changes in that, as I would normally not 

look for changes in that, I would assume that 

iv'ould be under the purview of the drug 

abatement manager for the companies that I 

work for. 

My understanding was that I needed 

to be under an FAA-approved drug abatement 

program for, you know? And my understanding 

was it didn't matter whether it was for the 

person paying me for the work, or the company 

that I worked for full-time. 

And since I was under the 

assumption that the drug abatement program, of 

my full-time employer was acceptable, to allow 

me to perform the work, this hadn't crossed my 

mind at the time we did this. 

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I would have to say that, yes, I 

would believe that I felt that I was 

acceptable and allowed to do that work. 

Q So you didn't, intentionally, try 

to do something that you thought was not 

allowed, or in violation of anything? 

A No, no. 

Q And you are in good faith that the 

airport, which was a service station, started 

the performance of this task, but they were 

unable to complete it but it was, still, under 

service station certificate, and that is how 

it was initiated at that point, is that 

correct? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q Okay. So in good faith you 

assisted, and ended up having to finish it up. 

Now, is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Now, you repeated that same 

rotor, exactly the same job, at a later date, 

and the aircraft hadn't been flown, is that 

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correct? MR. RALEY: Objection, 

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Your Honor. That is assuming facts not in 

evidence, and outside the scope. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You enquired of 

your witness whether the aircraft had been 

flown. I will allow it. But I would point 

out, Dr. Selig, that the previous witness' 

testimony suggested that it doesn't matter 

whether it was flown or not. But I will allow 

the question. 

THE WITNESS: Having been flown? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Just wait until he 

answers the question. Restate your question. 

Dr. Selig. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Well, my question is, is it true 

that the aircraft was not flown, or used in 

any part 135 operations, after you performed 

that rotor balance? 

A I can't safely sa y yes or no, 

because I was not privy to the aircraft flight 

logs. But based on the records that I have 

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seen, in evidence there, I would say that it 

was not flown on any 135 operations, after 

that weight and balance was performed. 

Q But you basically said --

A Or of the track and balance 

vibration check was performed. 

Q But you can say that it was not 

flown 135 knowing that there was no part 135 

pilot? 

MR. RALEY: Objection, asked and 

answered. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. Asked 

and answered Dr. Selig. 

DR. SELIG: I'm sorry, excuse me? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: It has been asked 

and answered. 

DR. SELIG: Okay. 

DR. SELIG: That is all the 

Questions I have. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any other 

questions of this witness? 

MR. RALEY: No, Your Honor. 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Baker, I will 

allow you to step down. Again, I will 

instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

with anybody, except with Dr. Selig, while you 

remain. 

you have? 

Dr. Selig, what other evidence do 

DR. SELIG: I pretty much 

submitted, I just have to go back over all of 

these documents that were never --

testify? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Are you going to 

DR. SELIG; I think I have said. 

pretty much, what I need to say. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, why don't we 

do this. It is 3:20, since we seem to be at 

a pause in the evidence, let's break now. We 

will start, promptly, at 9 o'clock. 

And it looks like we probably 

should get finished by noon. Unless you have 

to be someplace, Mr. Raley? 

MR. RALEY: Always, Your Honor. 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don't we do 

that. I'm going to admonish all the witnesses 

not to discuss your testimony with anybody. 

We will reconvene at 9 o'clock tomorrow 

morning, and commence at that point. 

And so at that point, Dr. Selig, 

Ms. Frankel, you will be here on the stand. 

I will. Dr. Selig, I will allow you crossexamination, and I will allow you, Mr. Raley, 

redirect. 

1 will then allow Dr. Selig to 

reconsider whether or not he wants to testify, 

or if he doesn't, at that point, the case 

should be at the point that you can consider 

whether you want to do a rebuttal. 

All right, thank you. We will see 

you at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. 

{Whereupon, at 3:21 p.m., the 

above-entitled matter was concluded.) 

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abateiiient 33:19 

35:9 55:i. 11 

73:22 74:14.16 

76:7 78:1 82:9,10 

122:21 123:10 

124:11,13 147:2! 

149:14.16 151:15 

189:1.3.6.10 

201:13221:22 

222:18,19223:8 

223:18 225:16 

230:10.13.19 

abide 164:20 

ability 43:8 217:21 

al)lcl29:4 

above-entitled 1:17 

25:22 71:21 

140:19 183:20 

235:20 

above-referenced 

78:781:5 83:11 

87:10 89:22 92:17 

97:9 99:4 102:4 

104:10 121:15 

128:5 132:4 

160:20 161:4 

166:14 192:19 

199:18204:16 

210:3 

absent 207:7.8 

216:18 

absolutely 107:14 

147:12 152:9 

163:4 165:21 

168:13 176:4 

180:13 

abuselI8:15 

acceptable 230:20 

231:3 

accepting 189:19 

accident 225:7 

accord 65:1 68:22 

accounts 36:18 

accurate 223:14 

Act 59:16 

acting4:7 32:4 

action 1:8 65:1 1 

69:2 155:9.13.18 

156:1.3,4 160:7 

162:1 163:3 

202:10 

actions 149:12,13 

active 31:13 47:1 

157:19 164:19 

165:1.8,19,22 

167:5 170:13 

171:12 174:8 

180:15 220:20 

activities 73:6.15 

actual 226:11 

Adding 64:17 

addition 69:12 

224:17 

address 7:4.5 19:20 

82:3 98:13.13,18 

114:22 156:6 

176:18 186:3 

193:8,15 197:6 

201:6 206:14.21 

addressed 82:5 

124:10 

addresses 6:20 7:1 

207:17 

adhere3]:17 

adjust210:19 

adjusted 215:15 

.Administration 

2:174:8 28:17 

30:22 59:16 72:19 

72:21 122:6 

ISS:12,I4 189:7 

212:10 

administrative 

1:15 34:4 41:13 

53:14 56:13 65:2 

155:9,18 156:4 

195:19218:1 

administratively 

177:3,6 

administrator 4:7 

32:4 

admissible 203:10 

admission 214:17 

admissions 8:3 

adniit213:21 

admitted 79:10 

80:6,8,21 83:5 

85:2 89:9 92:12 

99:14 106:4 

199:13203:21 

208:15 209:11 

214:12 

admonish 235:3 

admonished 52:10 

adopted 54:7 

advice 49:3 

Aerometrics 69:4 

.Aerospace 30:21 

affect 34:2 37:10 

afternoon 188:6,7 

AGC-300 2:15 

agencv48:5 56:15 

63:10 65:18 80:17 

83:1 84:18,20 

89:3,5 92:6.8 

96:15,1799:9,10 

100:20,22 101:10 

103:11,13 174:10 

Agency's 105:20.22 

209:6,7 

agent 112:20 

115:10 149:1 

agents 66:13 

aggravating 214:22 

215:3 

aggressive 65:1 1 

aggressively 36:10 

37:2 I74:ii 

agitated 38:7 

agreel5:ll 16:2 

17:18,19 111:7 

112:16 116:17 

131:17 132:14 

133:11 137:7.11 

138:18 158:3 

159:8 164:7 173:2 

173:5 178:12 

179:4 

agreed 15:20 44:12 

159:3.6 

agrees 62:12 

ahead 28:15 52:14 

93:3 94:22 1 18:2 

136:17 154:14 

195:7 202:6 

203:14 

air4:22 20:5 35:20 

36:4,741:2 78:18 

100:4.8 101:8,18 

101:21 102:14.18 

102:20 103:4 

106:14 107:6.7.11 

110:6 118:20 

119:14 142:11 

162:20.21 163:2 

167:8 222:16 

223:7 226:16 

228:10,15 

aircraft 29:1.10 

30:1031:11 52:20 

53:3,12 54:11 

59:9 68:10.13 

83:21 84:1,5 

86:1787:18.19 

88:4 89:12.13.14 

100:11 104:7 

105:6 107:18 

135:10 136:1 

148:16 157:12,21 

158:4 160:8 

179:13 180:4.11 

180:12 192:1 

205:18 206:4.10 

207:1,14,20 208:6 

208:21 212:4 

215:4 224:1,5,6 

226:8 227:7,9 

229:13 231:22 

232:5,17,21 

airframe 221:4 

AirMed/Keystone 

222:15 

airport 54:12 

226:13,16231:9 

airports 76:5 

alcohol 19:1 29:2.8 

29:13,14,21 30:3 

30:7.1431:5.9,17 

33:1935:9 36:7 

39:4 41:3 44:12 

48:2 51:12 54:1 

54:22 55:6 56:5.8 

63:5.7.22 66:6,20 

68:8 69:9,13 

72:22 74:19 75:5 

76:10,14 81:15.20 

82:4,8,13 87:5 

95:10 107:15 

109:16,19 113:19 

117:12 118:15.21 

119:3,13,14 120:7 

124:7,10.19 

132:11 133:13 

136:10 137:5.6,18 

137:21 139:4,5.9 

141:22 147:15 

162:7.10 164:21 

170:13 182:9 

193:7 195:14 

202:11.14 204:4.8 

204:11 206:17 

207:2.22 213:9 

215:6,7 222:7 

223:1 228:19 

229:1,14 

allegation 13:11 

alleged 34:17 38:13 

61:11 69:15 

159:19 

Allentown 2:7 

54:13.17 126:18 

(46:22 226:16 

.\llentwon59:4 

allow 23:18 24:18 

49:18 52:7 122:13 

131:18 135:9 

152:2 154:7 

158:12 179:1 

184:21 219:14 

230:4.20 232:6.9 

234:2 235:9.10,12 

allowed21:9 23:14 

67:19 68:4 139:8 

141:17 154:1 

Neal R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-4433 

Ine . 
Page 237 

178:3 229:22 

231:3,6 

allowing 217:17 

allows 97:22 

175:12 

Alotta45:1946:10 

54:4 127:14,14 

Alpha 78:22 168:1 

alphabet 9:17,18 

121:13 

ambiguous 56:17 

amend 154:11 

amended 32:7 41:4 

41:1059:15,20 

amendment 55:5 

55:12.20 56:18 

61:18 

amendments 34:10 

153:11 196:19 

amends 202:10 

amount 65:19 

105:7 

Amy 3:6 23:1 1 

30:20 40:13 184:4 

185:17 188:1 

analysis 227:10 

And/or 155:22 

announced 143:19 

answer 113:9.12 

115:8.21 116:21 

117:21.22 119:9 

119:21 125:21 

127:7 129:20 

131:2 138:10 

142:21 143:5 

146:10.11 151:2 

152:2 153:4.5 

154:15 168:9 

176:14 179:2 

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207:17 

answered 146:15 

158:8 159:11 

170:22 171:3 

173:13233:11.13 

233:16 

answers 8:10,11 

20:16 137:1 

232:13 

anti56:7 117:11 

antidrug 195:14 

197:15.18 

anti-drug 56:5 

81:15.20 118:15 

anybody 22:7 42:2 

8*5:20 140:15 

183:4 234:4 235:4 

anyway 162:22 

apparent 55:9 98:6 

apparently 63:17 

65:16218:10 

appeal 134:7 

appearance 185:3 

APPEARANCES 

2:1 

appears 64:20 

173:15 

appendices 29:4 

54:21 68:2 107:19 

108:8 152:4,19 

190:9,21 201:15 

appendix61:lS 

67:19 152:15 

197:5 198:4,12,13 

199:7 

appendi.\es 1 1:6,8 

applicable 208:4,5 

209:3 213:2 

applied 169:15 

applies 16:18 51:16 

apply 13:1642:16 

appreciate 187:3 

187:17 

approach 28:2 94:2 

121:19 

approached 223:17 

appropriate9:12 

10:8 18:4 20:9 

50:15 56:11 71:4 

155:2 195:17 

approve 73:4 

approved 35:8 

48:22 63:4 79:15 

110:16 162:7.10 

167:20 

April 54:20 127:18 

127:21 

arcane 26:16 

area 23:16 137:17 

137:19 171:7.8 

178:6 

argue 32:13 50:12 

153:5 170:11 

178:22 

arguing 32:1 5 

49:15 50:5,15 

146:7 150:4 170:6 

173:12 

argument 14:11 

32:1543:1747:22 

49:12.14 150:2 

argumento 60:10 

177:21 

arguments 18:3 

arises33:18 

arrived 190:1 

asked 69:22 124:2 

125:15,17 126:13 

141:9 146:14 

153:3 158:7 

159:11 173:12 

223:16233:10.12 

233:15 

asking 98:16 119:6 

119:10 123:11 

125:18.20 126:15 

141:12 145:1 1 

176:8 

asks 117:22 

asserting46:14 

61:4 

assessed 53:15 

assessing 61:6 

assign 73:6 

assigned 130:12.13 

assignment 130:16 

assistant 40:15 

assisted 231:17 

associated 17:16 

assume 18:5 230:8 

assumed 38:19 

185:20 220:1 

assumes 170:3 

assuming 16:7 

60:10 106:12 

148:22 177:20 

232:2 

assumption 48:20 

68:7 230:19 

attempt 17:7 43:9 

160:10 

attempting 34:2 

attention 19:18 

77:17 118:7 190:7 

193:11 196:14.22 

201:21 

attest 59:13 

attitudes 148:8 

attornev2:14 70:1 

70:11*125:5 

175:17 

audit 39:1966:6 

131:11 188:17 

audited 38:1 

153:16 

August 40:7 185:4 

186:8 

authority 226:13 

authorization 

190:16 

authorize 185:13 

authorized 43:18 

44:2 45:647:2,14 

52:4,4,21 75:2 

78:3 79:2,14,21 

83:21 84:2 102:20 

108:3,17 111:22 

136:10 164:12 

authorizes 78:17 

authorizing 29:19 

31:14 

availability 151:11 

available 14:20 

64:11 122:10 

143:10 151:10 

178:13211:4 

Ave 2:18 

aviation 2:17 4:7 

28:17.21 30:22 

39:11 56:4 72:18 

72:21 122:6 

188:11.14,16 

189:6 220:15,17 

220:21 

AVR 38:11 

aware 5:1 41:5 

46:10 54:2,6 

62:11,15 143:16 

150:10 

AYes 224:18 

A&P35:7 39:3 

53:22 59:6 69:14 

86:1687:21 93:17 

93:20 100:7,8 

102:19 120:3 

135:18221:9 

223:21 224:2.20 

225:2,6,8 

A-1) 72:13 

A-I)-A27:15 

A-F-T-E-R-N-0-... 

141:1 

A-M 188:1 

A-1 3:10 78:6,9 

79:9 80:16.17.21 

A-I03:15 104:9.12 

106:4 

A-11 3:19 192:18 

193:12 198:20 

199:13 

A-12 3:20 199:17 

199:20 202:16 

203:2! 

A-133:21 204:15 

204:18 208:14 

A-14 3:22 209:22 

210:5 

A-23:ll 81:4 82:21 

83:5 112:14 

182:18 

A-3 3:12 83:10,13 

84:14 85:2 

A-43:12 87:9,12 

88:18 89:9,14 

227:11,15 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 
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90:22 92:12 

A-63:13 92:16,19 

95:3 96:6,21 

A-73:14 97:8,11 

98:8 99:14 100:13 

.A-8 3:14 99:3,6 

100:14.15 101:4 

A-93:15 102:3,6 

103:6.17 

a.m 1:184:2 26:1,2 

72:1,2 140:18 

AOOl 78:16 

.A449 58:20 81:14 

112:14 124:6 

172:3 182:18 

B 

B4:14 112:20 

back 24:5,20 25:3 

25:1726:2 71:16 

72:1 86:1 94:7 

123 

182 

186 

222 

1 128:20 

15 183:22 

20 220:16 

1 234:9 

backdated 44:13 

Baker 3:6 30:9.12 

31:8 35:8,18.22 

36:6 37:14.14 

38:2041:2 48:18 

07:15 68:8.11,15 

69:3,12.18 86:16 

87:20 93:16 96:3 

100 

101 

103 

106 

107 

109 

113 

119 

124 

132 

135 

139 

142 

3.5 101:8.19 

20 102:18 

22 104:4,19 

13.21 107:7 

14 109:2.9.15 

18 110:4 

18 118:20 

2.13,17 120:1 

18 131:9 

10 133:13 

10 136:1 

2,4,8 142:9 

12 156:2 

157:9 161:11 

162:6,22 179:20 

181:1 187:8.13 

191:12,18 204:3.7 

204:11 209:2 

215:9216:16 

217:13219:15.20 

220:7,7,13 226:7 

234:1 

Baker's 59:6,7 

100:1 101:13 

106:22 192:11 

balance37:12 88:5 

105:5 179:21 

181:1 226:20 

227:22 232:19 

''33-3 5 ^ - J ^ , ^ t^ ^ 

bank 36: IS 

banner 198:3 

Barnette 24:7 

85:19 

base 150:21 156:19 

162:9 167:18 

based 32:3 35:7 

46:1647:1875:16 

161:10 170:19 

174:1 205:3 229:8 

232:22 

bases 162:5 

basic 174:5 

basically 35:12 

77:1278:16 

111:15 146:10 

152:14.18 156:19 

163:17 165:13 

175:5 177:12 

178:4 180:22 

181:12 194:18 

233:4 

basis 91:4,6 127:9 

127:13 149:4 

batteries 140:10 

battery 140:7 

bearing 180:13 

bears 46:7 

beginning 182:1 1 

193:13 195:1 

begins 194:10 

207:7 

behalf 1:21 2:2,10 

101:21 197:19 

228:9,12 

behavior 38:9 

belief 164:14 

believe 20:20 

135:11 138:15 

155:5 156:12 

157:8 158:15,17 

159:14 165:18,21 

173:21 174:10 

177:20 225:11 

231:2 

believed 229:13 

Bell 90:9 

belongs 7:9 

bench 6:4 14:14,15 

24:2 25:4 121:20 

benefits 69:6 

best 65:12 133:1 

Better 93:10 

big4:18 17:14,15 

birth6:197;l 

bit 207:6 217:22 

black 6:21 93:8 

block 132:20 

blonde 27:4 

boils 173:20 

book 131:11 

books 148:14 

bottom 70:7 88:2 

96:11 

bound 66:2 

branch 30:21 82:11 

189:12.15 190:1 

break 5:7.8,9 6:7 

19:771:15 140:3 

234:17 

brief 14:10 15:12 

15:13.15.17 17:22 

50:1567:18 

briefing 15:11 16:4 

17:7 

briefs 18:1 179:1 

bring6:22 160:6 

brings47:15 

brought 205:4 

building 1:20 5:14 

5:18,19 

burden 17:6 57:18 

195:20 

burdens 34:4 56:13 

business 7:5 37:3 

79:6 82:1 84:11 

9S:I32ii:S,iO 

212:2.6,9 

B-A-K-E-R 220:8 

li-3 211:11 

B-31 212:21 213:11 

B-4 212:12 

B-5-b213:12 

C 

C 1:149:19 

call 21:10 108:18 

128:4 183:10 

184:3 194:5 217:4 

219:15 

called 26:6 101:11 

167:1 185:18 

219:21 

capacity 69:14 

100:6108:18,20 

225:8 228:3 

caption 11:19 

cardiologist 138:7 

cardiologv 38:4 

45:16 

care42:8 69:6 

171:22 

careful 7:18 

Caron 24:4 93:8 

carrier 16:22 78:19 

carrv46:4 47:2 

58:"l 

case 8:5 13:4,6 

14:15 26:1932:14 

32:22 42:3.20 

44:8 48:11,12,13 

50:18 51:19,20 

52:15,1866:3 

68:7 71:9 76:22 

77:2.3,6 103:21 

106:20 109:1 

110:14,17 125:9 

126:9,10 130:7 

142:9,14 148:9 

155:5 157:1.5 

170:12 175:11,15 

176:3 177:8 178:9 

189:21,22 190:3.9 

192:12 209:3,19 

213:3.4214:22 

215:12,14216:18 

219:9 235:14 

cases 6:2 12:17 

17:1,1 43:4,10 

176:16 189:17 

^1 ]-7 

case-in-chief 217:2 

cash 38:18 

catastrophic 

107:16 

catch 130:21 

caught 34:8 

causing 107:16 

ceased 47:3 

center 29:16 73:1,9 

73:16 77:4 86:6 

86:10201:22 

certain 8:3.21 11:2 

75:15 

certainly 118:6 

214:7" 

certificate 29:18 

31:1340:643:20 

46:1,18,1947:19 

51:13.17 52:19 

53:9 75:1 78:2,17 

78:2081:1883:22 

84:2 87:21 102:19 

108:2.16 112:1 

117:17 118:11,14 

144:4 157:18 

164:18 165:1.2,5 

165:7 167:5.8.9 

167:10,11 168:1 

168:12 169:2,14 

169:20 170:19 

Neal R. Gross 5c Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 
171:5,15,17 174:2 

174:7.17.19.20 

180:15 182:4 

186:14 190:15 

192:2 205:4,15.16 

205:18,19 206:5.8 

206:12 208:7 

224:9 231:12 

certification 

169:16 

certified 4:17 30:1 

36:20 79:15 88:14 

90:16 91:15 95:19 

105:12 1 17:11 

137:3 147:18 

certifies 132:15 

certify 136:5 

CETS 154:22 

156:11 

CETSs 156:14 

CFR 29:3.5 55:21 

194:8 206:11 

CFMI2:4 

Chadwick 227:2,8 

228:1 

challenge 159:19 

chamber 4:18 

chance 24:1 217:19 

chances 1 15:17 

change 12:11.20 

13:6 14:11 36:17 

37:6 39:2,8 44:13 

44:17 53:21 54:3 

54:9.18 55:10,13 

57:4,9,16 59:13 

60:6,7 61:2 67:7 

113:3 115:1,2 

126:19.21 129:9 

129:14 130:10 

139:19 143:17 

144:1 146:20,21 

146:22 147:3 

165:16 167:19 

168:18 169:15 

174:15.21 

changed 47:4 58:6 

67:5.1068:1 

113:20 114:13 

115:18 127:20.21 

130:7 139:17 

141:17 148:6 

165:14.17,19,20 

168:4 169:17 

171:17 172:10 

174:9 179:6 

224:12225:13 

changer 40:4 

changes 34:3,12,19 

37:1053:17 54:7 

56:12 57:7 58:10 

58:18.22 59:1 

60:4,1362:11.12 

62:1566:1767:14 

71:4.6 127:10 

145:1 150:11 

153:17 164:15 

195:18 197:4,6,9 

197:11 198:3 

202:13 230:7,8 

changing 1 14:15 

133:11 172:20 

174:18,19 

chapter 88:7 

210:14 

chapters 57:12 

characterization 

149:20 181:15 

characterizing 

181:8 

charge 170:17 

171:15 

charged 170:15 

171:8 

Charles2:13 4:6 

Charlie 84:6 87:19 

89:17 90:10 226:9 

check 19:7 80:11 

80:12 88:5 105:5 

105:7 144:1 1.22 

145:4.8,15 226:14 

227:22 233:6 

checked 88:5 

checking 127:5 

144:21 

checks 88:9 

Chet 40:22 86:8 

104:20 

Chicf2:1641:13 

chilling43:8 

circumstances 

45:11 71:8 79:17 

177:1 207:8 

citation 33:17 35:3 

35:6 36:9,13 37:1 

39:18 52:6 

citations 11:11 

cited 18:1936:13 

36:20 37:13 51:20 

55:3 67:18 154:2 

176:9.11.13 

cites 154:22 

citing 40:1 

civil 1:8 32:5 40:1 

53:8,15 189:18 

213:5 

civilian 220:15 

221:3 222:8,9 

claimed 35:21 

clarification 152:7 

clarify 55:22 

197M2 

clarifying 56:6 

\95:U 

clarity 56:1,18 

clear "l 1:2 42:20 

84:7 86:3 89:2,12 

189:5 227:11 

clearly 55:15 56:20 

58:765:22 152:20 

clerk 12:14 14:2 

client 184:19 

clients 184:22 

clock 140:6 

clocks 140:9 

close 32:4 36:17 

195:21 

closer 12:4 

clue 134:8 

Code 206:6 

codes 172:20 

collected 190:5 

column 196:16 

201:22 

combination 

201:14 

combine 152:19 

come 24:20 25:3,17 

43:2271:1698:17 

112:8 126:20 

127:22 151:11 

154:10 187:9 

comes I 7:11,13 

134:7 

comfortable 5:22 

6:6 

coming 144:1 

commence 16:5 

135:10235:6 

commenced 31:15 

59:9 

commencing 4S:2 

comment 164:8,9 

195:20 203:12 

217:7 

comments 1 14:18 

Commerce 47:7 

committed 174:13 

common 65:1 69:1 

112:6 123:17 

commonality 4S: 12 

communication 

57:3 58:11 66:19 

community 45:15 

companies 230:10 

company 36:16 

37:1938:17 39:4 

40:3 44:16 46:5 

51:1654:1 69:4,7 

70:3 71:1 133:10 

163:15 )64:]2 

165:19.22 168:18 

178:3 224:15 

226:16230:16 

company's 37:21 

167:11*223:22 

compare 57:15 

compelling 71:8 

compensated 105:7 

Pag e 239 

compile 203:7 

Complainant 2:10 

9:1826:7 43:17 

46:14 67:18 78:9 

80:20 81:7 83:4 

83:13 85:1 87:12 

89:8 90:2 92:11 

92:19 96:20 97:11 

99:6.13 101:3 

102:6 103:16 

104:12 IS5:I9 

192:21 199:12.20 

203:20 204:18 

209:10 210:5 

Complainants 

63:1865:10 

Complainant's 3:2 

20:1647:22 55:14 

59:13 65:15 78:6 

79:9 81:3 83:9 

87:9 88:18 89:20 

90:22 92:16 95:3 

96:6 97:7 98:8 

99:3 100:13 102:2 

103:6 104:9 

105:16 106:3 

186:12 192:18 

198:20 199:17 

202:16 204:15 

208:14 209:22 

213:18 

complaint 13:11 

32:7 38:11 41:4.6 

41:11 47:8 65:15 

170:16 174:11 

complete 64:3 

231:11 

completed 67:2 

181:18 

completelv 58:5 

164:15 

comple.vity 64:1 

compliance 29:7,17 

31:7 34:15.20 

35:1.1 37:8 39:9 

39:14 40:5 44:6 

55:17.19 56:21 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Ine. 

202-234-4433 
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64:19 66:14 67:1 

71:2 73:1 74:19 

75:6.17 82:12 

85:15 123:22 

125:11 126:3.7 

145:14 147:17.18 

154:21 156:14 

168:6 176:9 

compliant 58:5 

123:21 144:17 

145:7,9 173:7 

comply 30:3 44:19 

63:781:19 116:17 

155:3 156:8 

158:13.16 159:6 

complying 31:4 

computer 64:21 

concealed 55:19 

concept 48:6 52:16 

91:17 

concern 223:15 

concerned 184:14 

concerning 63:19 

82:4 137:21 

146:18 225:13 

conclude 5:1 1 

concluded 64:4 

110:4219:1,2 

235:20 

conclusion 22:7 

70:14 183:4 

216:17 

conclusions 109:21 

conditioning4:22 

conditions44:4 

conduct43:1944:3 

44:18 45:7 70:20 

75:2.8 78:3.18 

79:3 102:21 108:3 

108:17 156:18 

conducted 30:17 

47:20 48:13 53:4 

74:9 85:6.14,17 

88:890:11.18 

91:18 104:22 

162:13 

conducting 31:16 

48:3 49:8 63:3 

206:6 

conduction 97:19 

conducts 74:17 

75:4 

conference 40:11 

42:1.2,12.21.22 

43:6.6,14 

conferences 41:22 

confine 49:10 

confirm 34:12,13 

67:13 

confirmation 41:1 

62:1081:18 

133:12 

confirmatory 44:7 

confirmed 58:20 

62:20 

Coj)firmiJig37:]8 

confirms 98:4 

confiict45:12 

conformation 59:2 

confused 123:3 

125:8,10 169:7 

confusing 63:12 

70:9.12 

conjecture 35:7 

conjunction 51:15 

consequences 

107:12,16 

consider 18:2 

41:21 42:4 176:22 

212:5 216:4 

227:21 235:15 

considered 35:22 

55:12 109:6 155:8 

191:13 

consistency 56:7 

195:14 

consistent 132:10 

consortium 59:1 I 

constantlv41:2 

53:18 

contact 70:2 

103:22 104:3 

116:18 

contained 29:3 

182:5,8 200:11 

contains 51:11 

conte.v(21S:4 

contingent 171:11 

continue 51:1 77:8 

94:19 134:17 

141:5 196:2 

continued 53:10 

continues 194:12 

continuously 35:19 

100:5 222:7 

contract 68:15,16 

69:17 70:2.8 

191:8 197:13,14 

contracted 1 5:2 

142:8 

contractor 120:6 

142:7 197:20,21 

228:3 

contractors 1 16:22 

117:10 118:13 

contractor's 

197:17 

contractual 142:10 

contradictory 

63:12 

contrarv34:13 

58:1262:1 

control 68:19,22 

1 1 1:10,12 

convenient 148:15 

conveniently 54:11 

coordinator 46:6 

73:14 77:4 86:5,7 

135:8,17 148:12 

coordinators 86:9 

copies 9:8 11:13 

16:14 19:4,5 

40:20 

copv 12:22 18:13 

28:2,3 59:6 

132:21 

corner 96:12 195:1 

corporate 36:17 

corporation 35.20 

36:4 44:17 165:14 

165:20 

correct 92:3 111:11 

116:12 118:18 

122:13,17 128:13 

128:21 132:11 

134:5.12 135:12 

138:7 147:19 

161:22 162:12 

173:20 189:7 

209:19213:15 

219:10226:9 

227:20 228:4 

229:2 230:1 

231:14.18232:1 

correction 39:16 

154:9 155:1,7.18 

155:19 158:22 

159:15 162:19 

corrective 155:13 

correctly 64:22 

correspondence 

150:21 186:3 

cost 65:18 

costs 65:18 

counsel 2:16 4:4 

6:8 12:21 22:15 

26:6 27:1628:1 

51:7 94:1 98:18 

149:9 185:18 

188:3 202:6 

203:14 

country 75:22 

couple"5:5 181:22 

eourseS:4 12:5 

16:7 27:22 65:11 

79:6 82:1 84:11 

90:13 95:16 97:3 

105:10 136:4 

court 9:22 10:3.8 

12:2,6 15:1 21:14 

22:4 24:22 25:8 

25:11,15.1941:20 

42:4,1043:1 

47:17 121:8 

131:20 132:21 

140:2 141:11 

Pag e 240 

148:8 170:11 

172:6.14 178:19 

183:5.13 184:7 

185:14 186:17 

193:21 199:8 

200:6,20 203:2,9 

203:12214:6.8,13 

214:18218:22 

courtroom 1:19 

22:2 52:10 140:8 

courtrooms 177:10 

cover 8:13,17 20:21 

110:3 194:6 

217:21 

coverage 213:12 

covered 29:1,13 

38:20 63:4 86:19 

106:13 107:6 

108:10.13 142:11 

163:7 191:1 215:6 

229:14 

covers 106:20 

CPlOSOOOll 1:8 

crazy 27:3 

created 1 14:12 

crew 49:5 

cross 3:4 187:13 

217:17219:8 

226:2 229:8 235:9 

crossed 230:21 

crossfire 34:9 

Cross-examination 

110:21 111:1 

226:5 

cross-e.vaniine 

216:15217:7 

CSO's5:13 

cue 10:7 

cure 35:6 154:3.8 

currency 66:11 

current"37:9 40:5 

60:9 111:16 

I47:)l 157:18 

164:19 165:1,7 

168:7 169:2,3,4.5 

169:10 171:20 

174:4.14223:13 

J 

Nea l R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-443 3 

I n e . 
curi-cntlv72:14 

73:16 188:8,15 

221:16 

curtail 66:12 

custody 45:13 

customer 38:11 

customs 74:4,7,8 

74:10 

cut 135:3 

C-1 82:6 124:8 

C-^ 117:6,6 118:11 

D 

daily 149:4 

damage 107:18 

dash 27:20 

data 150:21 156:19 

162:5.9 167:18 

223:12 

date 12:16 13:10,12 

13:1280:7,7.10 

111:6,9 112:15.17 

112:19,21 113:2 

132:19.21 139:20 

143:11 196:8.9 

201:1,2.17.19 

203:5 220:16,22 

222:1 223:14 

231:21 

dated 115:11 194:8 

200:8 

dates 6:19 7:1 16:3 

67:1 196:17.19 

David 47:15 

day 41:8 48:14 

68:13 181:1.3,4 

days 36:2 

De 18:20 

death 107:17 

December 41:10 

decent 66:2 

decide 77:5 145:15 

decided 63:13 

156:2 177:8 

decision 14:15 18:4 

53:14 145:2,5 

decisions 14:14 

dedacted 80:1 

93:17 94:17 

deemed 66:6 

defects 60:11 

define 107:20 

108:9 190:10 

191:1 

defining 224:4 

definition 9:4 

182:15 197:2,7,10 

I97:M 

definitions 182:8 

deliver 15:3 

demonstrate 28:18 

demonstrated 

36:15 

department 1:1 7:8 

34:1 47:7 128:12 

147:19 167:15 

194:7 

dependent 64:20 

depending 216:20 

depends 177:6 

depiction 91:7 

depth 57:5 

described 207:8 

despite36:10 37:2 

40:2 

detail 184:13 

188:15.19.21 

detailing40:S 

details 39:8 

determination 

172:6 209:16,18 

216:8 

determine 57:16 

76:21 155:16 

177:1 178:10 

21 1:6 

determined 75:14 

determining 157:4 

189:17 

develop 66:16 

developing 34:7 

deviate 38:21 

DHR 100:11 

dictated 223:9 

difference 47:12 

different 48:3 

65:22 127:2 171:7 

172:21 179:6 

difficult 61:17,19 

difficulty 5:5 

diligent 12:22 

direct 3:4 68:22 

72:6 77:16 113:19 

116:21 187:12 

188:4 193:11 

196:21 201:21 

220:11 

directed 82:9 137:6 

137:22 

directly 35:6 104:5 

104:21 142:8 

154:4 191:7228:6 

director 46:5 

disagree 137:13 

173:8,9 175:1 

disciplinary 69:2 

disclose 199:3 

disclosed 37:20 

39:1 53:20 55:15 

65:21 

dischtses 1 1 1:6 

disclosure 189:19 

discover 67:7 86:14 

discovered 29:9 

30:8 63:9 77:13 

86:1598:4 101:17 

110:11 

discovery 34:1 3 

185:2 186:13 

discrepancies 55:3 

discretion 65:9 

160:5,9 

discuss 22:6 52:1 1 

77:3,3 140:14 

183:3 194:19 

209:15218:19 

234:3 235:4 

discussed 77:8 

discussion 47:1 1 

49:17 

discussions 41:21 

dismissed 48:1 1 

71:10 

disproved 35:17 

disrespect 138:5 

dissenunated 55:10 

127:1 

District 54:17 59:5 

districts 54:14 

district's 54:14 

division 2:14 73:22 

74:14,16 75:19 

82:9,10 124:11,13 

147:21 149:14 

151:7 189:1,3,6 

189:11 

division's 149:17 

divorce 45:13 

163:19 165:14 

DMS 7:14 16:17.20 

docket 1:8 17:3 

docketing 16:15 

doctor 6:17 9:6 

11:16 12:9 14:13 

15:16 16:7 17:15 

18:11 27:22 32:9 

49:13 52:13 71:12 

82:1994:1598:12 

98:16 103:9 112:9 

117:20 118:2 

119:20 120:22 

122:15 124:2 

125:15 129:3 

131:18,20 132:18 

134:12 140:5 

148:7 153:3 

doctrine 67:3 

document 56:2 

78:8,12,14,21 

79:5,16 SO: 14, i 8 

81:6,10.12,17,22 

82:3,7 83:2,12.16 

83:18 84:10.21 

87:11,15,1788:11 

88:14 89:6 90:1,5 

90:7.12.1591:7 

91:20 92:9,18 

95:4.6,15,18 

Pag e 24 1 

96:1897:10.14.16 

97:20.22 99:5,11 

99:17.19 100:1 

101:1 102:5.9.11 

103:14 104:11.15 

104:17 105:9.12 

106:1 111:6.9 

112:15 114:11,12 

114:13 115:1,3.4 

1 16:6,11.13.15 

MS:5 119:7.12,16 

119:22 120:5 

121:16 122:5.19 

122:19 124:16 

128:6 131:10 

132:5,9 133:14.19 

134:20 135:9,22 

141:9,10,13.14 

160:2! 161:5,20 

161:21 164:1 

165:10,13 166:15 

172:2 182:18 

186:1 192:20 

193:2.4.8 199:3 

199:10,19 200:2 

201:2.10.18 

203:18 204:17.21 

205:1.2,6,10.12 

205:13,14206:1 

206:14,20 208:19 

209:8 210:4,8.11 

218:10227:7 

documented 227:5 

documents 73:5 

76:12 86:21 87:6 

152:12 166:1 

184:15 216:7 

234:10 

dog 72:13 

doing 11:15 49:15 

49:17 50:5 99:9 

124:17,21.22 

125:2 177:11 

198:9217:17 

226:17,19.20.22 

dollars 32:6 40:2 

40:1841:11 105:S 

Nea l R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-443 3 

Inc . 
212:16.17,18,19 

212:20,20215:14 

215:21 

DOT 29:7.21 30:3 

30:6 31:4 228:19 

double 60:20 66:9 

80:11 147:4,9 

doubt 65:4 

download 9:11 

Dr4:14 6:8,9.10 

8:13 9:19 13:8.13 

13 

18 

21 

25 

28 

33 

35 

42 

49 

52 

79 

87 

91 

93 

96 

99 

101 

104 

110 

112 

113 

115 

117 

118 

120 

121 

122 

124 

126 

130 

132 

134 

136 

138 

143 

146 

17 15:8.13.16 

13 19:4 20:1.6 

4 23:3,4.6 25:7 

1026:12.21 

7 32:11.17 

2.7,10,15.17 

1641:18.19 

6,14.1743:16 

20 50:8 51:2.9 

15 70:7 71:13 

12 82:20 84:17 

7 88:21 91:3.6 

10.13 92:1.5 

2.12 94:3,18 

2,998:11.14 

20 100:4,17.19 

12 103:10 

5.21 105:19 

22 111:2 

10.13 113:1 1 

16 114:5,8 

7.12 116:2 

5,16,19 

10 119:11 

2,21 121:6,9 

19.22 122:4 

16 123:19 

4,14 125:7 

1 128:9 129:6 

2 131:14.22 

8 133:1.5.9 

19 135:6.15 

18 137:13 

6 141:3.4.6 

6.8 145:14 

6.9,16 148:5 

148:10 150:1.5,8 

151:8 152:3 153:7 

153:15,22 158:10 

159:13 160:2,4,12 

160:16 161:8.18 

164:6.19 167:12 

169:12 170:1.2.7 

170:8,18 171:1.10 

171:19 172:2,7,18 

173:11,14,16,18 

174:12 175:9,19 

176:1 177:17,19 

178:17,21 179:3,9 

181:7,10,11,14.17 

183:1 184:6.11.22 

185:8.11,22 186:4 

186:8,11,21 187:1 

187:2,4,8,16,17 

198:22 199:2 

200:19201:1.8 

202:1.4.6,18,19 

202:21.22 203:3 

203:11 208:16,18 

214:16216:14,21 

216:22217:11.14 

218:9219:1,13,16 

220:9,10,12 

225:19.22 226:12 

229:6,11,20 232:7 

232:14,15233:13 

233:14.17,18 

234:4,6.8.13 

235:7.9.12 

drag214:6 

draw 19:17 109:21 

196:13 

drawers 9:9 

Drive 1:20 98:13 

drives 27:2 

drop 198:5 

drug 19:1 29:1,8.13 

29:14,21 30:3,7 

30:13,1431:5,8 

31:1733:1935:8 

36:7 37:15 38:6 

38:20 39:441:3 

44:9,12 48:2.8,21 

54:1,22 55:1,6 

56:8 59:8 60:9.22 

63:4,7,22 66:5,20 

67:21 68:8 69:8 

72:22 73:21 74:14 

74:16.1975:5 

76:7.10,14 77:22 

82:4,8,9.10.13 

87:4 95:10 100:6 

102:13 107:15 

109:15.18 113:19 

117:12 118:20 

119:3,13,14 120:6 

122:21 123:10 

124:7,9,10,13,19 

128:11 131:11 

132:11,13 133:13 

135:19,20,21 

136:10 137:5,6,18 

137:21 139:4,5.9 

139:12 141:21 

147:14.21 149:14 

149:16.17 151:15 

162:7,10 163:8.10 

164:21 179:12,15 

180:1 182:9 189:1 

189:3.5,10 193:6 

197:5 198:4 

201:13202:11,13 

204:4,7,11 206:17 

207:2.21 209:1,2 

213:9215:6,7 

221:19.22 222:7 

222:18.19223:1.8 

223:18225:3,16 

228:19229:1.14 

230:9,13,19 

due45:10,1855:21 

57:5 

duly 26:7 185:19 

219:22 

duties 73:2 86:17 

110:5 189:14,16 

dutv 220:20 

D.C 1:2 2:20 15:2 

D085 83:20 84:8 

86:18 

ear 138:10 

earlier 52:9 55:8 

114:12.12 141:19 

209:17217:6 

early45:20 133:6 

223:16 

easier 8:16 9:10 

32:18 121:7 

easiest 8:14 121:4 

eastern 29:16 

72:22 

Easton 1:20 

easy 159:18 

Eberson 47:15 

48:1251:18 

Eberson's48:7 

EC-135 226:18 

Edward 3:6 30:9 

35:8 86:16 87:20 

104:19 162:6 

219:20 220:6 

effect 12:15 13:2 

43:8 55:6 56:12 

107:1.20 108:9 

175:16 179:13 

190:10,22 192:10 

192:13 

effective 114:20 

139:20 143:11 

196:20 

EIR 150:20 

either 17:12 29:13 

48:9 86:19 131:1 

141:20 191:7 

219:13225:1 

228:15 

eligibiUty 92:22 

95:7 

eliminating 56:10 

195:16 

email 20:2,5 102:16 

emails 102:12 

emergency 207:9 

empirically 63:2 

employed 30:9 

36:3 69:3 72:15 

Pag e 242 

74:3.11 100:4 

104:5 106:12 

161:11 188:8,10 

188:22 189:2 

emplovee 29:12 

35:22 62:22 67:16 

68:1696:1 106:11 

108:2,10,10,13,13 

108:15 109:9 

162:2 182:8 191:1 

191:1,3,5.6.18 

192:7 197:7.13.14 

213:8 215:5 

employees 95:9 

212:11 

employee's 29:14 

69:17 

employer 35:20 

48:1067:22 69:10 

70:9 101:13 

106:14.19 107:20 

107:22 108:5 

162:16 182:7 

190:11,13.15,18 

191:11 197:6.10 

197:12.12 223:2.6 

230:20 

employers 63:8 

67:19 223:19 

emplover's55:7 

68:5"l97:15 

224:18 

emplovment 41:1 

59:8*73:11 100:2 

103:3 106:17 

110:5 163:1 

197:21 222:9 

enacted 61:10 65:6 

66:21 

encourage 60:16 

encourages 43:3 

57:18 

ended 231:17 

enforce 53:7 

enforcement 2:14 

29:1731:1 32:2 

40:20 73:1 75:6 

Nea l R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-443 3 

I n e . 
82:13 85:16 

149:17 154:22 

156:15 160:6 

engage47:l4 

engaged 47:13 

100:6 

enquire 1 18:8 

138:21 

enquired 232:4 

enrolled 41:3 

ensure 28:21 46:3 

139:12 

ensuring 1 18:12 

enter 118:1 132:16 

156:17,19 

entered 11:21 20:3 

25:1282:1784:14 

100:\5 142:10 

198:21 213:19 

entire 17:3 96:1 

210:13,17213:21 

entirety 05:14 

214:12 

entitled 17322 

entity 170:13 

211:17.20.22 

212:1.6 

entrapment 60:15 

entries 11:5 

entry 27:19 

Equitable 67:4 

erred 46:14 

error 44:1 46:21 

57:1858:3 171:2 

186:21 

errors 169:19 

ESQ 2:13 

essentially 14:1 

21:7 40:6 

evaluation 188:17 

everybody .5:19 

I6."5 125:9 

everybody's 10:7 

evidence 14:18 

18:2 20:4 28:18 

32:16,1835:15 

40:942:10,22 

43:4 50:6.10.13 

50:14,16,2051:4 

53:9 59:7.10 

79:10,1980:14,17 

80:22 82:17,22 

83:6 84:15 85:3 

88:19 89:4,10 

91:1 92:7,1396:7 

96:16.22 98:9 

99:10.15 100:16 

100:21 101:5 

103:7,12.18 

105:17.21 106:5 

109:22 110:15 

120:20 132:17 

135:19 164:3 

170:4 171:16 

175:20 176:22 

184:15 190:5 

198:21 199:8,14 

201:6 202:17 

203:9,17,22 

208:15 209:7,12 

213:19214:13 

232:3 233:1 234:6 

234:17 

evidenced 58:8 

evidentiary 14:6 

exact 57:2i 180:2 

exactly 1 16:16 

162:*14 176:19 

23 1:21 

exam 45:18 

examination 45:3 

72:6 163:18 182:1 

188:4217:18 

220:11 226:3 

229:9.10 235:10 

examined 26:8 

185:20 220:1 

examiner 45:4 

example 106:13 

138:13 

exceeded 65:19 

exception 222:11 

excerpt 210:1,22 

excerpts 210:16 

excluded214:13 

excludes 156:10 

exclusions 69:20 

exclusive 52:19 

53:2,11 

excuse71:1391:10 

184:18,19 196:11 

213:11 217:8 

218:18233:14 

exercise 58:2 

exhibil3:9 11:19 

13:22 20:4,9 28:2 

37:7 47:6 50:3 

63:1 64:13 78:6.9 

80:5,15,21 81:4,7 

82:1683:1,5.10 

83:13 84:1485:2 

87:9,12 88:18 

89:9,14.21 90:2 

90:22 92:12,16.19 

94:2,17 95:3 96:6 

96:12,21 97:7.11 

98:8 99:3,6.14 

100:13 101:4 

102:3.6 103:6,17 

104:9.12 105:16 

106:4 111:5 

121:17 128:7 

131:19,20 132:6 

160:22 161:6 

166:16 192:18,21 

198:20 199:13,17 

199:20 203:21 

204:15.18208:14 

209:11,22210:5 

213:18227:11,15 

exhibits 6:12,16.19 

9:13.14,22 10:1 

11:17 16:9,13,17 

17:5 27:19.20 

28:5 32:22 46:14 

existence 61:15 

122:22 214:2 

existent 70:4 

existing60:9 64:5 

224:16 

exists 65:4 

expect 16:9 58:12 

70:12 

expecting 147:2 

expedite 27:18 

experience 44:22 

56:4 220:14.15 

experiences 223:3 

experiencing 38:18 

expert21:1023:10 

23:1224:14 

expertise 137:17,20 

171:7 

explained 45:8 

141:19 

exposure46:15 

extended 195:22 

extension 65:8 

196:1 

extenuating45:l 1 

E&T13S:11 

E-D-W-A-R-D 

220:7 

E-X-H-l-B-l-T-S 

3:8 

F/VA 1:8 5:16 9:7 

12:11.21 14:21 

15:3.12 16:21 

18:22 30:8 31:22 

33:1 34:7,9 38:1 

38:20 39:11 40:22 

42:3,1645:3 

46:20 52:17 53:1 

54:4.7,1055:1,11 

55:12 56:1.6 

59:20 60:3,21 

61:11,1562:6 

63:4.13,20,21 

64:3,6 66:4,4.7.15 

73:12 76:7 79:6 

82:1,12 84:11 

147:5 149:1,2 

151:7 155:14 

162:5,6.9,10 

167:17,18,21 

168:17 174:17 

Pag e 24 3 

178:14 193:7 

195:10201:13 

202:12212:5 

215:19.22 216:4.7 

217:1 225:14 

FAA's 58:8 59:21 

202:11 219:9 

F.AA-approved 

230:13 

FAA-mandated 

197:15.17213:8 

FA.A-2010-1211 

1:9 

FACC 2:4 

fact 36:1 38:14,22 

40:943:11.13 

54:15 114:22 

M5:I7 139:12 

146:17,18 152:4 

161:11 163:4 

170:19 171:5 

174:6 180:12 

187:18 

factor 215:3 

factors 45:10 

214:22215:2 

facts 49:15 168:10 

170:3 232:2 

failed 28:21 130:17 

131:3,5 

failure213:7 

fair 1 11:19 112:5 

214:11 218:9,11 

fairness214:10 

faith 49:3 231:8.16 

fall212:15 

falling 41:8 

false 48:19 

familiar 77:19 

101:10 189:20 

227:3 

far 45:20 52:18 

65:19 94:7 145:22 

145:22 177:13 

207:20,22 208:1.1 

220:16222:1 

fast 61:3 

Nea l R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-443 3 

I n e . 
Page 244 

faster 33:1 I 

fatal 60:11 

favor 65:7 

fax 186:5,6 

FDMS 1:9 

February 39:3 

44:14 53:21 58:19 

111 

113 

135 

195 

229 

:11 112:15 

•1 91 139-1 7 

:21 193:13,17 

:1.10 196:20 

:15 

federaI2:17 4:7 

11: 

28: 

57: 

72: 

4.10 16:22 

17,20 30:22 

5 59:17 61:6 

18.21 122:6 

123:4 143:18.19 

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58:18 59:18 60:2 

61:11 67:8 68:13 

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81:14 83:20 84:8 

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29:20 30:17 31:13 

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performing 48:1 

68:9 107:9 109:3 

110:4 191:13 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 
197:18226:13.14 

performs 62:22 

106:16 108:21 

179:11 

period 36:3,21 

47:20 48:4,14 

51:21 52:0 53:5 

53:11 54:1966:14 

68:3.14 70:17 

73:2091:1995:12 

96:1 171:18 

175:14 176:5 

195:20 

periodically 67:12 

206:11 

periods 95:13 

peripheral 170:16 

pernnt 178:1 

Perry 21:17,18 

person 46:20 57:7 

03:3 136:20 

141:21 179:15 

206:12,17 207:1 

230:16 

personal 6:12.18 

145:2.5 167:8,9 

168:15 

personally 4:20 5:4 

33:5 167:7 

personnel 46:2 

54:16 55:11 

149:13 150:10 

221:21 

persons 208:21 

pertain 69:17 

perfaiiiiiig49:6 

124:9 137:4 150:1 

pertinent 69:15 

201:3 

Peterborough 

221:6 

Pew 38:2 

philosophy 43:2 

phone 6:20 7:2 

phrase 164:9 

phvsical 226:1 1 

227:6 

physically 62:8 

physician 159:17 

piece 134:3 171:16 

plle211:15 

pilot 36:20 44:19 

44:21 45:1246:12 

47:3 52:3 69:14 

79:1591:15 100:7 

100:8 102:19 

111:17 112:2 

167:9 220:18 

222:11 224:20 

225:2,6,8 233:9 

pilots212:3 

pilot's 168:15 

221:4 

place 6:1.7 10:8 

22:3 39:1045:6 

48:9 57:1260:11 

178:1 202:12 

219:8.9 224:15 

plan 80:20 

plant 221:5 

played 61:3 

pleading 175:3 

pleadings 8:10. II 

20:13,13 

please4:5,5.10 

10:15 15:8 25:7 

25:10 26:9 33:5 

33:13 71:1672:9 

94:21 122:13 

184:5.6 187:20 

196:17200:19 

202:8 203:11 

205:11 207:16 

217:11 

PMI 136:9 

point 13:20 15:10 

23:1943:11 50:21 

57:22 58:5 09:10 

77:5,7 85:8 93:22 

98:17 114:9 

128:20 130:21 

131:1 137:11 

140:1 155:21 

158:2,3 172:21 

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217:3219:7,14 

231:13 232:6 

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133:15.22 135:5 

pool 95:8,11,21.22 

96:3 110:10 

141:22 

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portion 137:5 

147:15214:11 

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position 22:16.17 

22:19 73:8 192:8 

positive 69:11 

107:7.11 224:21 

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possession 47:18 

possibility 115:16 

possible 7:22 19:21 

24:8 56:9 113:22 

114:10 126:22 

127:2 131:3,4 

159:14.20 195:16 

posted 224:1 1 

post-hearing 14:10 

potential 24:13 

60:14 

power 221:5 

practice 17:16 

45:16 141:17,18 

practices 65:2 

pre 42:20 

prefer9:16 217:8 

prejudice 218:12 

218:14219:13 

preliminary 5:6 

7:19 10:20 20:18 

184:9 

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32:18,22 50:20 

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presented 2S: 19 

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presiding 70; 10 

pretty 132:9 218:1 

234:8.14 

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103:15 106:2 

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48:10J7 68:4,6 

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114:11 148:1,14 

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152:7 156:5 

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procedurally 8:17 

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62:5 66:21 129:16 

139:1,2 179:6 

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procedures 34:14 

39:9.18.1945:5 

58:13.14 59:16 

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proceed 77:6 

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proceeding 14:6 

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Neal R. Gross Sc Co. 

202-234-4433 

Ine . 
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35:9.19 37:15 

38:21 39:541:3 

44:9 48:2.8,19,21 

48:22 49:1 54:1 

54:22 55:7 56:6,8 

59:8,21 60:9 63:5 

66:21 67:22 68:5 

68:9 69:9.13 

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106:21 107:6 

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117:12 118:16 

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promptly 153:10 

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114:17 193:16 

194:20 195:11,12 

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prosecution 158:12 

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160:5,8 

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protocols 39:12 

protracted 45:13 

prove 53:1 

proven 48:20 

provide 39:6 77:15 

98:6 114:18 143:4 

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publicly 21 1:4 

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113:9,13,15,17 

115:8,22 117:4,21 

117:22 118:4 

119:9,9,21 122:15 

125:16,18,19,21 

129:7,20 131:2 

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148:8 149:11,15 

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176:15 180:6 

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214:3 229:19 

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questioning 181:19 

questions 82:4.7 

112:12 116:19 

124:3,9,16.20 

125:3.16,20 127:7 

137:4,9,10,10 

138:4,19,20 

182:22 190:8 

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10:21.22 11:4.13 

12:2.5.7 13:19 

14:4,9 15:4.7.17 

15:21 17:5,10,14 

18:5.8.17.18 19:5 

19:10,13.1920:1 

20:11,14.2021:2 

22:11.17,1923:1 

23:11.21 24:4.7 

24:1525:6 27:17 

28:11,13,1635:13 

40:15 41:17 49:11 

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71:16.18 72:4.5,7 

78:11 79:8 80:13 

81:1.9 82:15 83:7 

83:15 84:13 85:4 

85:10,11 87:14 

88:1789:1.11 

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100:12.15 101:6 

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104:14 105:15 

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112:7 113:4.6 

114:3 115:19 

117:2,13 118:2 

119:19 123:18 

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193:1,20 194:3.14 

194:18,22 195:0 

196:4,6 198:7,11 

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200:12.15 201:9 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 
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218:3,6219:11 

221:13225:17 

226:4.6 227:14 

229:4,17 230:2 

232:1 233:10.22 

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ratings 227:5 

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117:9 118:6 

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161:13 167:16 

170:20 173:7 

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16:1621:1426:15 

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134:2 130:2,3,22 

138:20 152:10 

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183:9216:18,20 

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25:16.18,21 26:1 

26:2.3,10 49:22 

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131:16 140:2,13 

140:17 172:15 

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130:18,22 130:11 

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94:3 98:19 

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182:1 217:20 

219:8 229:6,10 

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65:13 67:6 70:8 

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180:21 202:11 

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17:1 19:1 28:21 

29:3.8 30:431:5,7 

31:1833:20 34:10 

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56:9 57:22 59:14 

62:1863:8,10 

64:1,5.7.19 65:4 

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74:2081:20 82:14 

108:6.14 109:10 

110:12 116:6.16 

116:17 123:16 

124:8 127:11 

136:15 138:18 

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172:13 174:14 

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225:13 229:21 

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153:11 163:0 

164:20 171:8 

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Neal R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-4433 

Inc . 
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70:14 

relative 68:3 

relevance 178:15 

178:18 179:7 

205:5,7 

relevant 43:18 

48:1452:5 149:12 

149:13,21 175:21 

207:14210:16 

214:14 

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172:11 

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174:7 

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49:1051:1064:8 

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172:22 

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repeat 4:19 5:3 

118:3 149:7 

179:19206:19 

repeated 37:14 

179:14 180:2 

181:3 231:20 

rephrase 113:11 

142:14 180:5 

replaced 62:9 

reply 98:2! 

report 31:2 40:20 

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12:2.6 24:22 

25:15,19 172:14 

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23:7 40:9 66:22 

105:5 186:13 

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31:17 34:14.18 

36:6 52:5 66:12 

70:1 71:2 141:20 

144:5 145:13 

147:17 163:9 

164:20 180:21 

182:4 223:18 

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59:5 118:22 163:6 

174:16223:5 

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49:6 52:20 57:10 

144:6 164:21 

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129:4 144:18 

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4:13 8:3 20:1 

28:19 29:6,20 

30:1,8.1731:6.11 

31:12,15 34:21 

38:14 39:14,22 

40:7,17 45:8 46:4 

57:8 58:12,17 

60:19,20 61:4.5 

62:20 63:1! 64:6 

65:1767:5 71:5 

77:20,22 79:2 

84:8 85:6,13 

89:1690:1898:21 

101:21 108:5 

109:3.10 121:17 

128:7 132:6 

160:22 161:6 

166:16 190:18 

191:19211:18,19 

211:21 214:10 

219:22 

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30:6.11,13,19 

31:3.9 55:1660:2 

109:15 134:14 

135:2 166:13.21 

167:2,3 186:12 

204:4 229:1 

response 76:20 

77:15 98:6 99:20 

155:11,12,15 

176:21 186:12 

responses 112:12 

responsibilities 

45:15 

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136:12 137:19 

148:1 223:11 

responsible 62:14 

82:12 118:12 

144:7 147:14 

rest 217:3 

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restructured 47:9 

71:1 

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rests 33:1 68:7 

result 37:5 56:3 

77:9 195:22 

224:21 

retirement 45:20 

retrieve 23:19 

return 140:4,13 

returned 38:6 

returns 37:21 

216:11 

reveal 162:9 

revenue 212:10 

reverse 63:14 

reversed 13:7 

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85:22 80:22 87:3 

101:7 136:10 

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33:2,12 39:17 

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160:19 164:9 

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room 21:14 23:14 

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126:20 127:17.22 

128:2.12.14,16 

129:1 130:12 

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225:15 

rotor 37:12 88:5 

105:5 179:21 

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rule 10:2 11:2,5 

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152:13 193:0 

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114:17 193:16 

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rules 15:19 42:3 

81:19 159:4218:5 

ruling 34:9 

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R-A-L-E-Y4 11 

R-1 3:16 120:21 

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R-3 3:17 131:22 

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safety-sensitive 

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67:20 86:17 107:9 

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sanction 18:0 31:22 

32:1 209:15.19 

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214:8,9215:11.13 

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sanctions 189:19 

satisfied 94:4.16 

save 140:11 

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172:16 175:5.0 

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scheduling 15:21 

17:13 189:18 

School 221:6 

scope 103:3 106:17 

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Scott 8:22 9:1 

scroll 17:4 

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seated 4:5 26:9 

second 11:22 18:18 

32:6 98:1 112:18 

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section 37:11 82:0 

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93:12,22 94:8.16 

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6:8,9,11 8:139:19 

13:8,13,17 15:8 

15:13.16 18:13 

19:4 20:1,7 21:4 

23:3,4,6 25:7.10 

26:12,21 28:7 

32:11,17 33:2,7 

33:10,15.1735:16 

41:18,1942;6,14 

42:17 43:16 49:20 

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82 

88 

91 

93 

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21 91:3.0.10 

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100:4,18.19 

101:13 103:10 

104:5,21 105:19 

110:22 111:2 

112:10,13,20 

113:1 1.16 114:6.8 

115:7,12 116:2 

117:5,16,19 

118:10 119:11 

120:2,21 121:6.9 

121:19,22 122:4 

122:16 123:19 

124:4.14 125:7 

120:1 128:9 129:0 

130:2 131:14.22 

132:8 133:1,5,9 

134:19 135:6,15 

136:18 137:14 

138:6 141:3.4,6 

143:6,8 145:14 

146:6.9,16 148:5 

148:10 150:1,5.8 

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164:6,19 167:12 

169:12 170:1,7.8 

170:18 171:1,10 

171:19 172:2.7.18 

173:11,14.16,18 

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176:1 177:18.19 

178:17.21 179:3,9 

181:7,10,11,14,17 

183:1 184:6.11.22 

185:8,11.22 186:4 

186:8,11,21 187:1 

187:3-4,8,16,17 

198:22 199:2 

200:19201:1.8 

202:1,4.6.18,19 

202:21.22 203:3 

203:11 208:16.18 

214:16216:14.22 

217:11,14218:9 

219:13,16 220:9 

220:10.12 225:19 

225:22 226:12 

229:7.11.20 232:7 

232:14.15233:13 

233:14,17,18 

234:4.6.8.13 

235:7,9.12 

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216:21 219:1 

send 76:19 138:11 

sends 14:22 

sense 53:7 64:4 

112:6 

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68:10 88:4 109:7 

197:19 

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97:18 

sentence 6:5 1 17:9 

156:7 207:6 

separate 223:1,21 

September 47:4 

61-10 165'15 

seoucnce 121:3 

sequestering 21:8 

sequestration 22:1 

22:20 

serious 107:17 

155:2.2 156:7,12 

157:7.8,12,15 

158:3 

serve 97:21 

served 39:22 40:17 : 

221:14 

serves 24:8 

service 4:8 15:1 

74:5,7 112:21 

115:11 157:21 

158:6 179:12.14 

: 

1 

Neal R. Gross S, Co. 

202-234-4433 

Inc . 
Page 257 

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set 11:22 17:6.7 

settle 43:9 

settlement 41:22 

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seven 49:21 189:4.9 

shape 133:2 

sheet 44:11 194:6 

shifting 64:21 

short 222:11 

show 78:5 81:2 

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sh(»wn 35:18 

shows44:12 50:16 

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shut 36:12 48:4 

sic 207:20 

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sign 16:1 

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signatures 44:7 

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significant 34:10 

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similar 39:10 

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simple 171:14 

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sir 17:10 181:17 

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site 145:S 156:21 

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situation 110:7 

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slice 180:18 

small 212:1.6.9 

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social6:22 93:2.12 

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solely 35:7 46:16 

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span 12:19 

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specific 39:4,7 54:1 

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specifications 

29:12,1930:2.11 

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35:2 37:8 44:6,18 

46:17 48:8 49:2 

52:22 55:16 56:22 

57:13 58:15.20 

59:22 62:3,8 

67:11 78:1681:14 

83:20 89:15 

127:15 168:6 

206:5 

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specs 30:19 

speculation 114:4 

115:20 128:22 

129:18 

spell4:9 26:10 27:0 

72:9 187:21 220:4 

spelled 10:0.9 

splitting 120:4 

spreadsheet 11:16 

11:18 

staff77:l,2,2 

stages 61:12 

stale 215:18 

stand 185:20 220:1 

235:8 

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57:3 59:3 60:20 

60:2! 61:22 62:1 

65:2 66:9,10 

129:15 139:2 

147.-4,5,9,9 

standards 54:14 

61:9 75:7 122:19 

122:20 123:2 

205:19 

start 8:3 122:11 

187:7217:17 

234:18 

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122:7,12.20,22 

134:22 135:1 

231:9 

starting 132:14 

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72:9 120:5 167:16 

187:20 220:3 

stated 53:6 56:1 

64:7 67:15 113:18 

122:11 168:11 

statement 3:2,2 

32:21 34:15.20 

35:1,11 40:5 

43:17,22 44:10 

56:21 58:1662:19 

63:1971:291:19 

101:15 104:19 

111:19 112:5 

122:15 131:8 

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1S4:14 

statements 37:8 

40:9 44:6 55:17 

125:18,20 

states 1:1 45:22 

55:21 56:2 59:20 

63:2 74:4,7 

104:21 105:2 

205:10,14 

stating 57:20 174:6 

station 23 1:9,12 

status 106:22 

192:11 

statute41:5.9 

160:11 

statutes 9:3 

statutory 60:4 

stay 24:14 173:17 

step 52:8 186:19 

219:4 234:2 

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86:8 104:20 

sfick219:lS 

stint 222:1 1 

stipulafions 158:21 

174:1 

stop 10:7 160:4 

straight 134:2 

strategic 75:17 

street 54:13 148:17 

stricken 71:9 

structure 168:5 

stuff67:13 

sub213:14 

subject 25:11 31:8 

33:17 35:3 43:15 

69:2 74:21 77:22 

110:9 117:1 1 

118:14 120:16 

157:9 

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submit 50 ^ ~> 15 

71:8 184:10 

submitted 37:21 

65:15 110:17 

184:16 189:17 

234:9 

subsecpient 43:7 

62:9 

subsequently 33:21 

45:20 179:6 

substance 185:6 

substantial 55:1 3 

56:18 107:17 

substantive 55:5,1 3 

57:2,16 59:1 

202:13 

successful 176:12 

successfully 177:14 

sufficient 46:1 

Neal R. Gross SL CO., Inc. 

202-234-4433 
133:8 

suggested 232:8 

suit 58:13 

summarv 202:9,10 

203:0 " 

supervise 73:5 

supervisory 221:15 

221:17 

supports 52:16 

126:8 

suppose 124:15 

supposed 61 5 

123:6 138:1 144:1 

144:11.12 146:1 

146:12 14S:22 

sure5:13 6:17 

10:19 11:3 19:4.7 

19:22 23:15 93:11 

93:12 94:4 98:19 

136:6 140:7 

200:17 219:17 

223:11 

surrender 165:4 

surrendered 165:2 

suspended 36:11 

38:1746:1070:18 

79:18 163:21 

suspension 48:4 

sustain214:!7 

sustained 70:6 

1 14:5 129:2 

146:14 149:22 

150:6 153:14.21 

158:9 159:12.22 

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177:17 178:16 

179:8 225:18 

233:12 

swear 25:5 185:12 

swipes 226:17 

sworn 26:7 72:4 

185:19 220:1 

system 34:8 39:9 

61:9 60:1675:18 

121:10 154:22 

156:15 

sv.stems 70:21 

S-E4:14 

S-E-S-S-l-O-N 

141:1 

S.W 2:18 

table2l:ll 197:3,4 

198:2214:11 

tables 18:7 214:8,9 

take4:19 5:4,6.9 

8:20 9:2.10.12 

11:9 12:10 14:2 

14:18.18 18:6,16 

19:17,18 33:5 

64:2 71:12.15 

94:13 140:3 

183:16 187:13 

213:22214:7.18 

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219:9 

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22:11.1227:5 

74:13 138:3 

172:16 

talked 172:9 

talking 10:17 12:3 

26:17,17,18.20 

120:18 128:15 

133:20 134:9.15 

136:6 154:21 

talks 206:1 

target 33:20 64:18 

65:21 70:22 123:8 

159:18 173:4 

targeting 75:1 7 

task 23 1:10 

ta.\37:21 216:11 

team 73:14 77:4 

86:5,7,9 

tear 10:12 

technical21:10 

23:10,12 24:13 

27:1 46:2 188:16 

tedious 58:1 

teleconfereijce 

41:12 

telepathy 148:2 

tell 14:1 22:13 

24:19 50:17 1 12:6 

116:10,15 119:12 

119:16 120:10 

123:21 124:5 

128:18 132:21 

136:20 137:8 

166:4 168:10 

173:19,19 176:16 

telling 12:14 50:22 

93:19 122:8 123:5 

124:22 125:2 

168:3.8 

tells 116:16,18 

156:22 

tend 9:7 10:3 

term 21:6 101:11 

106:7 107:20 

108:10 190:10 

191:1 192:3 

terminated 47:10 

terms 5:22 121:3 

test51:1962:21 

09:1 225:3 

tested09:ll 107:7 

107:11 

testified 26:8 

185:21 220:2 

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29:18 30:5,15.22 

31:12,20 234:12 

235:13 

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testimony 14:19 

18:3 19:15 21:9 

21:20,21 22:7 

23:20 25:14 28:19 

43:5 50:7.10 51:5 

52:11 71:12 112:9 

140:15 141:19 

183:4 185:6 

187:16.19 216:21 

218:20 232:8 

234:3 235:4 

testing 19:1 29:2.8 

29:22 30:4.7.13 

30:14 31:5,9,18 

38:21 51:1255-7 

63:7,22 68:9 

74:19 95:10 

106:15.21 109:16 

109:19 110:10 

124:7 141:22 

157:10 162:7.11 

182:9 197:5 198:4 

204:4.8,12 206:18 

207:2 213:9 

224:21 228:20 

229:1 

text 56:19 57:14 

64:9 

thank4:16 12:0 

32:7.8 33:12 

71:19 89:19 

119:18 139:14.16 

144:9 145:17 

157:2 182:20 

183:14 1S7:2 

196:21 197:22 

204:1 219:6.16 

220:10235:17 

theory 47:13 

thick"9:8 

thing6:7 13:5 

14:13 21:18 33:9 

43:1! 137:12 

139:3 140:5,10 

171:12 180:3.7 

214:6217:9,18 

things 7: fS 19:16 

50:13 114:19 

151:1 100:6 165:3 

185:14 187:5 

think5:21 8:16 

18:11 27:4 50:16 

147:8 178:2 181:5 

181:18218:11,12 

219:4 234:13 

thinking 1 14:7 

184:8 

third 70:3 

thought 123:4 

Pag e 2E 

184:9 231:5 

three 5:10 9:7 

10:17 14:21 55:8 

124:3 130:8 

144:13 148:14 

198:5 214:0 

216:10 

throw 185:14 

Thursday 1:12 

200:8 201:19 

time 7:17 9:12 

10:18 12:15 13:3 

20:9 23:19 20:18 

26:20 32:16,21.22 

34:1.6 35:15.20 

36:3 51:21 53:10 

58:5 64:2 75:12 

79:8 82:16 83:8 

84:13 85:9 88:17 

90:21 93:22 94:13 

95:12 96:5 98:1.7 

100:12 102:1 

103:5 105:15 

108:9 110:20 

142:15 144:10.15 

144:18 169:1 

171:18 184:17 

188:19 190:22 

198:19201:5.7 

202:15 204:5.8.9 

204:12 206:3 

207:13 208:13 

213:17214:2 

216:13.21 220:19 

223:2.6 224:7 

226:10-15.21 

230:22 

times33:21 43:18 

43:22 48:20 

222:13,17 

title 72:20 188:13 

189:10 200:6 

today 10:8 73:21 

77:18 126:2 

141:11 174:12 

(87:12 218:18 

told 40:14 135:17 

Nea l R. Gros s Sc Co. , Inc . 

202-234-443 3 
108:17.17 

tolling 67:4 

tomorrow 5:20 

16:9 187:5.9,13 

218:21 219:18 

235:5.18 

tonight 10:11 

top 186:3 193:12 

194:22 200:6 

totality 157:3 

176:22 213:22 

track 37:12 88:5 

105:5 173:3 

226:20 233:5 

tracked 59:21 

tracking 154:22 

156:15 

traffic 222:12 

train 39:14 128:18 

150:9 

training39:7 45:1 

58:7 87:4 150:12 

150:14.15,16.20 

150:21 151:9.12 

175:21 220:18 

transcript 6:15 

10:11 14:20 15:5 

15:8,9 16:3,642:7 

42:18 134:8 

181:16 

transmit 10:2 

transport 107:9 

Transportation 1:1 

34:2 194:8 

traveling 75:13 

trial 17:1428:1 

43:7 121:12,12 

triple 80:11 

true 59:19 161:20 

173:2 232:16 

try 5:18 6:2 15:11 

43:4 49:16 50:18 

231:4 

trying 10:12 12:22 

27:1 50:12 118:8 

145:6 149:0 

102:16218:8 

turn 10:8 190:7 

turning 211:11 

212:12,21 

Twenty-one 18:10 

twice 41:4 

two 9:7 15:11.12 

17:21 18:1922:3 

23:14 24:2.18 

33:21 36:2,2.20 

38:1739:1863:9 

6S:\4S5:IS 

127:21 130:7 

140:9 146:20 

158:21 166:1 

181:3 

two-thirds211:14 

t>pel4:19 16:19 

74:15 85:5.13 

87:22 130:11 

211:17 

types 151:5 

Typically 121:12 

U 

unable47:2 54:S 

07:7231:11 

unauthorized 

30:18 45:9 70:19 

165:10 

unavailable45:17 

unaware 60:6 

153:17 230:6 

unbeknownst 

63:18 

uncertain 145:18 

unclear 152:12 

153:1 

undeniably 36:14 

undergo 45:1,2 

underlined 208:2 

understand 20:21 

70:1398:16 116:3 

125:11 127:5 

138:14 142:15 

147:7 154:16.19 

157:6 173:20 

223:16 

understanding 

67:14 230:5.12,14 

understood 66:1 

180:6 

underwent 36:17 

44:16 54:22 

undisclosed 164:16 

unfortunately 7:17 

union 69:7 

unit 227:2,4 

L/nited 1:1 74:4,7 

unprofessional 

38:10 

unreasonable 

57:1860:19 

unreferenced 

33:22 

unsettling 54:3 

unwilling 158:10 

158:19 

unwillingness 

155:3 156:8 

158:13 159:5 

upcoming 139:19 

update 61:5 

updated 37:10 

40:21 44:7 58:6 

60:1,9 62:7 114:2 

uphold 32:5 

use 7:4 9:15,16,18 

51:14 52:1953:2 

53:11 67:19 68:4 

111:14 197:12 

223:12 227:3 

usesl21:12,13 

usually 16:21 77:1 

utilized 58:14 

U.S 1:1,15 

V27:8,1072:ll 

VA4:17 

vague 56:17 

valid 112:1 168:12 

168:19 

Valley 47:16 54:12 

valveS8:6 

variable 64:21 

varies 121:1 1 

various 33:22 

54:21 

verify 162:20 

versed 136:14 

vibration 227:10 

227:22 233:6 

Victor 27:11 72:11 

view 57:14 64:7 

Vincent 55:2 66:5 

128:14,16 

violate 173:22 

violated 28:20 

34:17 128:20 

175:4 

violating 63:10 

173:1 

violation 33:18 

36:14,21 37:13 

46:1547:17.20.21 

48:5,18 60:14 

61:11 63:1665:12 

68:3,770:11,15 

91:18 107:3 

110:11 154:4,10 

154:13 156:11 

158:13,22 159:(9 

161:10 171:11 

174:13 175:12,13 

176:4.13 178:2 

179:5.18 180:18 

181:2.4 201:2 

203:5 204:5,8.9 

204:12 206:22 

207:11.12208:1 

208:11 211:10 

213:1.4231:6 

violations 31:2l 

32:3 51:20 69:15 

70:22 74:10 98:6 

190:22212:16 

213:2215:18 

Virginia 3:5 20:5 

26:13 27:8 72:11 

visit 38:S 

visited 165:6 

Pag e 259 

voice 33:5 

volume 193:21 

200:7 

voluntary 189:19 

W 

wait 18:13 24:12 

32:13 117:22 

176:21 232:12 

waiting 23:16 

walk 6:3 172:16 

walked 226:21 

walks 16:14 185:15 

want5:186:7,10,12 

10:6 14:2 15:16 

17:20 18:5,16 

19:1720:2221:3 

21:15 22:3 24:21 

32:9 33:13.14 

42:5.9 50:1,3.17 

50:18,19.20 51:1 

52:9 80:4 131:21 

140:11 164:22 

214:5 216:15.16 

217:7218:2 

219:14235:16 

wanted 11:1 32:17 

146:17 169:7 

wants 15:13 219:17 

235:13 

warning 39:16 

155:1.20 159:1.16 

warranted 46:16 

70:16 

Washington 1:2 

2:20 15:2 

wasn't 111:21 

118:21 122:10 

133:2 139:1 142:1 

153:2 154:11 

164:11 108:16 

179:16,21,22 

180:16 

Watworth 146:21 

way 8: (4 10:9.(0 

14:1,22 15:6,19 

20:6 28:8 44:21 

Nea l R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-443 3 

Inc . 
49:21 51:4 107:7 

107:8 114:6 121:4 

126:16 129:3 

131:16 152:16 

154:17 155:16 

176:19 185:13 

206:13 211:14 

218:11 222:22 

website61:7.12.15 

61:1664:7.11,22 

66:22 110:7,12.14 

120:10,12,16,17 

120:19 122:7,8.10 

122:12.20,22 

123:4 124:13 

127:5 143:20 

144:2,11 146:1,3 

149:6 174:7 

224:11 

websites 33:22 

57:15 172:21 

wedded 9:14 

week 15:18 16:11 

10:15.18 69:6 

75:12 

weekly 09:5 

weeks 14:21 15:5 

(5:13 16:5 

weight 20:17 43:12 

202:21 203:2.8 

233:3 

went 26:1.2 35:6 

55:5 64:6 71:22 

72:1 156:4 183:21 

183:22 

West 18:21 

Westgate 98:13 

we'll 14:17.18 20:9 

23:9,18 35:14 

we're 5:8 14:17 

24:17,1725:20 

we've 7:17 18:19 

whack 200:22 

whatsoever 144:22 

wife26:20 33:9 

Williams 35:4,16 

35:21 38:1,5,7,13 

38:1939:1.6.13 

45:9 53:20 58:17 

59:11 61:3 85:19 

161:10 

Wineberg 54:16 

witness 6:1 21:20 

24:8.10,13,21 

25:3.4 26:6,13 

27:8,12.15 52:8 

52:1271:1772:4 

113:10.14 1(5:9 

116:1 117:15 

118:4,7 119:22 

124:5 129:22 

133:18,21 134:5 

134:10.11,13,16 

135:1,4 140:14 

142:4,7 143:1 

151:4 152:2 153:5 

106:6,10,18,22 

167:3 170:6.12.21 

173:12 179:2 

182:22 183:6.6,13 

183:14 184:3.19 

185:3,12,18,20 

187:7.14 188:1 

195:2.4 205:12.13 

210:22216:15.20 

217:2.8,9218:15 

219:1.6,21 220:1 

220:6 221:10.12 

230:5 232:5.7,11 

233:21 

witnesses 3:4 5:22 

7:3 21:1.4,5.8,8 

21:12.1522:1,6 

22:12,1523:15 

24:19 25:11 

184:13,21 217:4.5 

217:21 235:3 

words 154:9 

work 15:20 28:22 

29:931:11 68:12 

68:17,20 76:12 

87:22 88:4 89:13 

101:20 102:18 

104:6.22 105:2 

106:16 117:10 

118:14 136:1 

180:14 192:9 

224:4 226:8,18 

227:16,18 228:2,7 

228:9,12,16 

229:12230:11.16 

230:21 231:3 

worked 36:1 68:21 

73:12 101:19 

103:5 214:8 224:7 

230:17 

working 59:9 03:21 

135:10 163:1 

222:14 223:22 

works 14:22 15:6 

106:13 108:15 

192:8 

worry 93:14 

worse 5:1 

wouldn't93:14 

129:4 133:11 

135:11.21 149:3 

152:6 180:21 

write 70:18 80:6 

writes 100:5 

w ritten 56:20 

62:1965:5 126:3 

132:2 161:21 

wrong 134:13 

174:8 

wrote 226:12 

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V 

V 188:2 

year 12:19 13:8 

36:2 37:6 39:21 

63:1565:1468:14 

143:9 144:13 

yearly 45:1,3 

years 12:18 36:20 

" 38:17 54:9 56:3 

62:6 124:18 

144:13 148:18 

157:13 178:5 

189:4.9216:10 

222:13 224:19 

225:1,5 

Voder41:14 

young 14:19 221:2 

Z27:i4 

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02-04 195:20 

02078:22 168:2 

03 111:7,10,13 

04 111:11 

1 

167:1996:13 

121:17 160:15 

197:15 198:4 

213:14 

lAl 154:21 

1st 40:1095:13 

1-A 111:5 

1 15 140:5,14 

29 141:2 

30 5:9 

10 105:17,20.22 

121:2 

10th41:10 

10:156:1 

10:2071:1472:1 

10:305:7 6:1.3 

10:39 72:2 

iOl 1:20 3:14 

1023:15 

1033:15 

1043:15 

1063:15 

11 192:21 

11th 196:20 

11.000212:20 

11:42 140:18 

111 3:5 

11929:18 31:13 

78:2 108:2,16 

1S2:3 190:15 

119.6945:21 

Pag e 260 

12th61:I0 193:6 

194:9 196:11 

120 11:8 29:5 

182:10 190:9 

201:10 

120.35 04:16 

120.39 04:16 

121 11:6 29:3 33:18 

67:1969:16 75:2 

108:8 152:15 

182:16 190:21 

194:8 198:13 

201:15 207:22 

208:2 

121J51:12 

121-302 55:20 

1243:16 

1283:16,17 

13 209:0.7,11 

13th 68:1 

132 3:17 

135 19:2 29:11.20 

30:1831:14,16.19 

36:1943:1944:19 

45:7 52:1,464:15 

75:1.2 78:3,18 

79:3.14.1790:18 

91:15,17,21 108:3 

108:17 112:1 

157:13.17.18.22 

158:5 165:11 

168:14 190:16 

192:2 205:4.18.19 

205:20 206:7 

207:20,22 208:1,1 

208:7.8,22 212:3 

222:14 224:8 

232:18 233:2.8.8 

135.24149:4 

135.25(b)52:lS 

135.25149:10 

62:18 

I35.25UC) 207:9 

135.25549:9 62:18 

64:16 

1429:3.5 194:8 

206:6,11 210:1 

Nea l R. Gross & Co. , Inc . 

202-234-443 3 
Page 261 

213:19 

14th 200:8 201:19 

155:771:15 

158545206 87:21 

1603:18 

1613:18 

1663:19 

18104 2:7 

1823:5 

1840 193:22 194:11 

196:14 

1841 193:12 194:14 

190:22 198:3 

1860 193:22 194:12 

188 3:6 

1946:11 

1923:19 

1977 222 

1980 220 

1984 221 

1987 221 

5 

18 222:4 

4 

6,11,12 

1993:19,20 78:17 

] 995 74:12 

2 

281:7 83:1 90:13 

160:15 197:17 

2nd 41:7 

2,199212:16 

2,200212:18 

2-4-2004 115:11 

2:11 183:16.21 

2:32 184:1 

200 105:7 

2000 73-13 (8 19 

73:20 74:2.12 

123:1 

2002 127:15,17 

193:17 195:1.10 

195:21.22 

2004 11:5 39:3 

44:11,15 53:22 

54:20 55:12 58:19 

58:21.2261:8,18 

112:15 113:1.21 

120:18 127:19 

128:12 139:1.6.7 

139:11.21 143:14 

193:6 194:9 

196:12,20 

2006 37:20 88:6 

132:14,20 208:19 

208:20 

2007 36:12 40:4 

41:7 45:7 46:11 

61:1073:9,10 

92:2 95:14 122:12 

2008 13:14 18:11 

37:6,1240:441:8 

47:561:11 69:16 

85:12 88:1 105:1 

105:4 107:20 

111:16.22 126:4 

158:5 165:15 

190:10226:7 

228:18.22 

2009 11:5,7 36:14 

37:22 38:5 60:3 

63:15 68:2 77:19 

S5-P 95'14 ^00-S 

201:20 

201040:1641:10 

2010-1211 16:20 

201141:1206:15 

185:4 188:20 

2011-6 52:17 

2012 1:12 

202 2:21 

203 3:20 

2043:21 

20591 2:20 

206 90:9 

209 3:21 

21,st37:22 40:16 

95:14 

21.53(b) 150:17 

210 3:22 

2I50.3B210:1,17 

211:1 214:1 

2153B 18:9 

2153(b)31:22 

220 3:6 

2263:6 

22649 200:10 

201:22 

22668 200:10 

229 3:6 

23rd 38:5 39:21 

235.255 51:9 

2437:12 

24th41:8 88:l 

104:22 105:4 

158:5 190:11 

226:7 228:18,22 

25124:18224:19 

225:1,5 

25th41:12 185:4 

251 63:11 64:16 

255 63:11 

26th 1:12 

267-3357 2:21 

283:2 

28th 193:13.17 

195:1,10 

28162:6 

29th 195:21,22 

3 

3 78:22 84:18,20 

96:13 116:4,21 

134:14 135:2 

160:15 168:1 

207:19 

3:20 234:16 

3:21235:19 

33 3:2 

360-3953 2:8 

4 

45:11 89:3,5 94:2 

160:15 194:7 

211:19.21 212:1 

212:13,14 

4th 58:21 

4,399 2(2:19 

4,400 32:641:11 

212:19215:21 

4:155:11 

40 69:5 

4300 88:6 

449-a 44:11 

5 

592:6,8 111:6 

121:2 213:1 1 

5,40040:1,18 

215:13 

5075:12 

53B1S:10 

550212:16 

6 

696:13.13,13,15,17 

121:2 166:13,21 

167:2,3 

6th 40:7 

6102:8 

65S8:7 

69 193:22 

7 

799:9.10 193:22 

210:14 

72 3:5 

74 200:7 

77 222:6 

78 3:10 

8 

8 100:20.22 

8:30 10:10 

803:10 

800 2:18 

813 

83 3 

84 3 

87 3 

89 3 

11 

11.12 

12 

12 

12,13 

8900.161:8 122:11 

9 

984:6 87:19 103:1 1 

103:13 218:21 

234:18235:5,18 

9th 111:13 

9:00 1:18 

9:284:2 

9:30 26:1 

9:35 26:2 

91 200:11 222:12 

224:6 

923:13,13 200:7 

9365 195:12 

96 3:13 

973:14 

98 89:17 90:10 

220:9 

993:14.14 

Neal R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-4433 

Inc . 
262 

CERT I FICAT E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: M&R Helicopters 

Before: uS DOT 

Date: 01-26-12 

Place: Easton, PA 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W 

(202)234.J433 WASHINGTON,D.C, 20005-3701 WTOjiea'fg/iKscom