Todd Post is the editor

of ASK Magazine and works for

EduTech Ltd. in Silver Spring,

Maryland. 

He has written for many publications both in print and online. To

contact Todd send him an email at

tpost@edutechltd.com

and tell him what you think about

this issue of ASK.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

IN THIS ISSUE

How Big Is Your Project Wo r l d ?

by Todd Po s t

How big is your project world? Is it big enough to contain other cultures, headquarters, hierarchies, and weird harpoon-like guns? Sure it is. The great American

poet Walt Whitman said it best, "I am large/ I contain multitudes." And so must you,

Mr. and Ms. Project Manager.

In this issue of ASK, we look outside the project box. See how several talented

project managers have expanded their definition of project scope to include managing environments outside the systems and subsystems under their care.

Here's a sampling of what we've put together for you this issue: 

In "Three Screws Missing," Mike Skidmore tells about his adventures at the

Plesetek Cosmodrome in northern Russia. Mike was Project Manager of the NASA

contingent on this joint sponsored research mission with the Russian Space Agency.

A winter launch made working under stressful conditions unavoidable. Read how a

good project manager who wants to get the job done no matter what has no choice

but to adapt. 

Ray Morgan in his story, "Our Man in Kauai," suggests we take a broader view of

what's meant by "the team." On Ray's project, the Pathfinder solar-powered airplane,

his definition of the team was not satisfactory if all this meant was the folks on salary.

Read how Ray and his NASA sponsors worked with the native peoples in Kauai to

achieve a high altitude world record flight, and why it might never have occurred

without everyone working together.

Jenny Baer-Riedhart, the NASA program manager on the same Pathfinder solarpowered airplane, schools us in how to sell a program to Headquarters in "Know

Thyself--But Don't Forget to Learn About the Customer Too." Prior to its amazing trajectory into the stratosphere, Pathfinder might never have gotten off the ground had

Jenny been working less diligently to gain the support of Headquarters.

Scott Cameron of Proctor and Gamble, one of our two regular Feature writers,

talks about sharpening your hierarchical IQ in "The Project Manager and the Hour

Glass." See how you measure up when it comes to working with your hierarchy. Learn

from Scott's 30 years of project management experience on getting along better with

hierarchy and thus increasing the odds of your project's success.

Mike Jansen in "The Lawn Dart" describes how he and the "voodoo crew" on the

Space Shuttle Advanced Solid Rocket Motor program borrowed a harpoon-like gun

from the Coast Guard to catch particles inside of a plume. Why? Because they

thought it would work. Find out if it did. How big is your project world? In this case,

apparently, as large as your imagination will allow.

These are just some of the stories you'll find in ASK this issue. We hope they

A P P L 3

The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP
( C O N T I N U E D ) How Big Is Your Project Wo r l d ?

cause you to stop and reflect on your own project's relationship to the world outside.

We are also launching a new section this issue, There are No Mistakes, Only Lessons.

No stranger to ASK readers, Terry Little inaugurates this new section with his article

"The Don Quixote Complex." 

Hope you find plenty of learning opportunities this issue. Let us know what you

think. 

Todd Post

IN THIS ISSUE

4 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners
Dr. Edward Hoffman is

Director of the NASA Academy of

Program and Project Leadership.

He is responsible for the development of program and project leaders and teams within NASA. Dr.

Hoffman develops training curricula, consulting services, research

projects and special studies in program and project management.

You can contact him at ehoffman@hq.nasa.gov

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

FROM THE DIRECTOR’S DESK

My Future Re v i s i t e d

by Dr. Edward Hoffman

"And exactly what do you do for me?" asked then NASA Deputy Administrator,

Hans Mark. 

As was his custom, Dr. Mark was hosting a winter holiday social for Cooperative

Education Students from NASA Headquarters. Standing in a corner of the room trying to appear inconspicuous, I was feeling privileged to be one of the lucky CO-OP

students at the home of the Deputy Administrator.

But I nearly choked when I realized Dr. Mark was talking to me. Before I could

say anything, he put the question in context for everyone there whose ears were now

raised. "I know why the other students are here," he said. "They're all engineering students. I know what they can do for NASA,but why do I need a psychologist on staff?" 

Understand now this was almost twenty years ago. The other thirty or so people

attending the party probably forgot the question shortly after it was asked. But for

me it serves as a small moment of truth and remains vividly etched in my awareness

all these years later.

First, it indicates the degree to which a professional working in a behavioral field

focusing on individual and team development was at one time virtually invisible at

NASA. More important, it underscores what a dramatically different place NASA has

become.

In the early 1980's, professional development at NASA more or less followed the

traditional apprenticeship model. Valued professionals, mostly engineers and scientists, spent many years fine-tuning their skills within their selective disciplines. When

an opportunity to manage a project came up, it normally was under the direction of

an experienced tutor, often more than one.

Professional development was once a slow process, believe it or not, nourished

by an organization of seasoned veterans. Experience was acquired over a lengthy

duration in which the individual could experience all phases of a project. The need

for professional development was muted and at best supplementary.

Since then much has changed at NASA. We've gone from large projects that generally take many years to complete to smaller ones that happen, as we all know,

Faster, Better, and Cheaper. In keeping with this new paradigm, the apprenticeship

approach is gone, replaced by accelerated learning programs. Myriad tools exist to

prepare the modern project manager - web-tools, career development models, intact

team support, benchmarking, coaching, simulation training, knowledge sharing, university programs, formal mentoring, e-learning, lunch symposiums, etc., etc. All of

these came into existence to quickly prepare managers to survive in an environment

of speed, change, and the rapid transitions that occur around the borders of chaos. Is

A P P L 5

The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP
( C O N T I N U E D ) My Future Re v i s i t e d

it better this way? That question is for another article. For now, let's just say it is how

it is.

There's little doubt when Dr. Mark asked what exactly do you do for me, he had

no idea how NASA was going to change in the next two decades. The truth is I had

no idea myself how different a place NASA would become in twenty years. But had

I, and had I told all, you could bet no one in the room would have dared believe it

could all come true.

FROM THE DIRECTOR’S DESK

6 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners
Dr. Alexander Laufer is

the Editor-in-Chief of ASK

Magazine and a member of the

Advisory Board of the NASA

Academy of Program and Project

Leadership. He is also a visiting

professor of the Civil Engineering

Department at the University of

Maryland at College Park and a

Professor at the Faculty of Civil

Engineering at Technion-Israel

Institute of Technology. You can

contact him at

allaufer@askmagazine.org. 

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

LETTER FROM THE EDITOR-IN-CHIEF

From Po w e r Point Slides to Powerful Stories 

by Dr. Alexander Laufer

An experienced NASA project manager was invited to talk at a Knowledge

Sharing (KS) meeting sponsored by the Academy of Program and Project Leadership

(APPL). Not used to speaking about his work in front of his peers, i.e., other NASA

project managers, our project manager did not sleep well all week prior to the meeting. His wife, who had always been a balm to him in times of stress, tried to comfort

him by pointing out how well he'd done in his presentations in front of the directors

at his center. This was true, he was known at the center to be a terrific front man for

any project he worked on, but in this case it was little comfort. 

Again, his wife tried to help by assisting him with his presentation. If not an IT

expert, she was certainly better than he was with PowerPoint, and thanks to her his

slides looked great. "Give me a grocery list," she liked to say, "and I can make a presentation of it." 

The trouble was, and he could see it was difficult for her to understand, the best

looking presentation in the world would not have made a difference in alleviating his

concern about speaking in front of this group. At the meeting he would be speaking

to other project managers, 15 in all, "the best of the best," as the meeting organizers

like to say of the project managers they invite.

"It's not just the audience," he tried to explain. "There's a difference in the kind

of energy in the room when someone tells a story instead of using a slide presentation." 

She looked puzzled. "But we've got PowerPoint! It's the new beta version." 

He had spent what he realized was an "unhealthy" amount of time on the presentation, preparing the slides, editing them until he could not stand looking at them

any longer, practicing his delivery in front of his whole family, including his young

children and even his poor dog. It's funny because our project manager had such a

good time participating in other KS meetings. He enjoyed listening to other project

managers tell stories about their projects, and he never lacked for his own examples

to bring up in his remarks to them either in the large or small group discussions.

During the first part of the meeting, our project manager found it difficult to concentrate on the other presentations. Looking around the room, he recognized the

nametags around the horseshoe-shaped table as some of the best project managers in

NASA. Some of them in fact were veritable superstars.

When he took his seat at the horseshoe in the conference room, he was wishing

he had not been so quick to accept the offer to present. When asked to talk about his

recent project, he got excited and said yes right away. All sorts of ideas sprung to

mind to talk about, but as he began thinking about them as a coherent narrative he

A P P L 7

The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP
( C O N T I N U E D ) From Po w e r Point Slides to Powerful Stories

saw his experience as something very different from what occurs on most projects,

hardly something common enough to spark a meaningful group discussion. To make

matters worse, the presentation was going to concern some of the difficulties

involved during a project, and though he had heard others talk about difficulties on

their projects, he didn't want people to think these difficulties were all that the project was about. 

As he listened to his peers from other NASA centers share their experiences, the

project manager looked across the room at another project manger from his center.

They flew in together to the meeting and on the plane he was surprised to hear his

colleague sound so pessimistic about the meeting, although it was clear soon enough

that this was the colleague's first time attending a KS meeting.

"What can anybody really get out of listening to a bunch of people tell stories!"

his colleague grouched. "All I'm interested in is the lessons and tools. I hear they have

a website where they publish all the stories. For my money, it would be a better use

of everyone's time if we all just read the material on the web and sent emails to each

other." Then he snorted. "I mean like who really wants to talk about a story." 

After grouching some more about how he wished the meeting were being held

somewhere else, preferably where he could pack in a half a day of good skiing, the

colleague asked him what his presentation was going to be about. When our project

manager named the project, the colleague remarked, "Oh yeah, I heard all about that

and the stuff you and your team had to go through to complete it on schedule.

Amazing you ever pulled it off."

What should have sounded like a vote of confidence, our project manager heard

as a challenge. During those awful nights, those sleepless nights just before leaving

for the meeting, he thought about any possible way to make the presentation more

interesting, and as he ransacked his memory for details, little bits of humor and specific detail about the project, he wasn't sure if anyone would be able to generalize

from his unique experience.

Suddenly it was time for our project manager to get up and speak. He was introduced as one of the most dynamic project managers at his center. He felt a little

embarrassed being introduced this way but the faces in the crowd looked expectant,

not incredulous, and this steadied him as he walked to the front of the room. 

The first part of the presentation went exactly as planned, but it felt all wrong.

His delivery seemed wooden, it sounded too scripted, and so he decided to abandon

the slides altogether and tell stories he had not rehearsed nor planned on sharing. As

he told these stories, he grew more relaxed, the words came out so much easier, and

LETTER FROM THE EDITOR-IN-CHIEF

8 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners

“

‘Give me a grocery

list,’ she liked to say,

‘and I can make a presentation of it.’ ”
( C O N T I N U E D )

soon he was enjoying himself. Was it his imagination or did people look more interested in what he was saying? 

Someone laughed at a little story he told about a unique aspect of the project,

something he originally thought best to leave out because he didn't think anybody

would be able to relate to it. Heads all around the room were nodding. A question was

asked, answered. Someone told a story about something similar that happened on

one of her projects. Now that one person other than the presenter told a story, others

came forward with their own stories. Before long it seemed like everyone was

involved in the dialogue. More questions were asked,answered,asked,answered...; no

longer was it one individual presenting to a room full of listeners, but an entire group

of people sharing their own unique stories about their projects. The magical thing

about this was that many of the lessons were similar.

Here is an excerpt of what transpired: 

"We realized on this project the best way to save time and money was by holding weekly face-to-face meetings with our main contractor, and at times even more

often." 

"I've got some difficulties with this. It costs a lot of time to travel back and forth.

I tend to believe you can accomplish an awful lot by just being smarter in how you

use email and phone conferencing." 

"Hold on now. I've got to say something about this. I've also found on my projects it was the face-to-face time that made the biggest difference. This is especially

crucial at the beginning of the project, and also any time a major contractor joined

the team. What I've found in cases like these is that face-to-face interaction prevented misunderstanding from occurring and helped build trust. Sure it costs some time

and money on my part, but without it I don't know how we would have stayed on

schedule." 

"And I've found no matter how much time you spend composing them, emails

always just make you aware of the tip of the iceberg. Projects don't sink because of

the dangers you see ahead of you. It's the stuff below the surface that does the most

damage, and by actually going out and talking to people you learn how big and dangerous those issues really are." 

Our project manager standing at the front of the room felt more like a facilitator

than a presenter, but that was okay with him. What he was hearing sounded good, it

sounded right, and for the first time in a week he recognized this as the feeling he

had brought home from these meetings in the past.

"This presentation and our dialogue illustrate an important lesson for us all," said

LETTER FROM THE EDITOR-IN-CHIEF

From Po w e r Point Slides to Powerful Stories

A P P L 9

The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

“

[He] wasn’t sure if

anyone would be able to

generalize from his

unique experience.

”
one of the project managers at the table, and lo and behold, to our project manager's

amazement, it was the colleague whom he flew in to the meeting with from his center. "For me it's an especially important lesson. Why? Because I didn't have much

faith that I could learn anything at this meeting. I don't know every detail about people's projects, but the thing that strikes me is that these stories have gotten me to

think about my own project in a way I hadn't been able to before. Thinking, pondering, reflecting, this is all great. To be perfectly honest, I don't think I've thought this

much about my own decisions and actions since I asked my wife to marry me 20

years ago." 

The room got very quiet. No one quite knew what to say, until the same project

manager who made the observation stood up and rallied everyone, "Come on,let's get

on with things. Doesn't anybody have a story to tell?" 

When our project manager who had given the presentation returned to his seat,

the first thing he wanted to do was write down everything said during the dialogue.

He had learned so much. But before he could do that, and no sooner had he reached

his chair, the editor of ASK was already on top of him, imploring him to submit his

presentation as a story for publication in ASK. Publish it in ASK--what a fabulous

idea! ASK is sent to all the project managers in NASA. Instead of sharing his story

with just 15 project managers, he could make it available to the entire Agency, and,

for that matter, the entire world, ASK being on the web.

Never before had the project manager fancied himself a writer, but the material

was apparently good, all those people were nodding, the ASK editor was practically

begging him; the stories about the project just seemed to come out of him so easily,

why not write it down then? 

Four months later, he was in the office one afternoon and got a phone call. It was

his wife and she said she had to talk with him right away to tell him that she'd read

his story in ASK and was moved by it. "I have a much better appreciation now of

what you were going through to finish that project on time." 

"There's something about a story that just appeals to the heart," he said. 

"I'll say," she added. "What you wrote certainly isn't like that grocery list I helped

you prepare. I mean you took a grocery list and turned it into a real meal." 

Well, what was there to say after that? No matter whose praise came later, hearing this from his wife was like adding to the meal a bottle of fine wine.

LETTER FROM THE EDITOR-IN-CHIEF

10 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners

( C O N T I N U E D ) From Po w e r Point Slides to Powerful Stories

“

The magical thing

about this was that

many of the lessons

were similar.

”
Lessons

• We need both face-to-face communication and virtual communication.

Ambiguity is best dealt with by using face-to-face communication. This is true in project life and in knowledge sharing.

• A movie is more interesting than a slide show. Likewise, a story is more interesting than a bulleted list. 

• Sharing a unique story with a group of peers will trigger other members of the

group to share their own unique stories and will generate a productive dialogue.

• What is common to powerful stories is their uniqueness. Among other things,

knowledge is about applying general principles to unique situations. Therefore,

unique stories are powerful knowledge sharing vehicles.

LETTER FROM THE EDITOR-IN-CHIEF

From Po w e r Point Slides to Powerful Stories

A P P L 11 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

( C O N T I N U E D )

To be perfectly honest, I don’t think I’ve

thought this much about

my own decisions and

actions since I asked

my wife to marry me 20

years ago.

“

”
Terry Little is in the civil

service with the Department of the

Air Force, where he has been a

program manager for five major

defense acquisition efforts. He

entered the Air Force in 1967 and

served on active duty until 1975.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

THERE ARE NO MISTAKES, ONLY LESSONS

The Don Quixote Complex 

by Terry Little

Prelude to a Mistake

I've made plenty of mistakes in my career, but the one that I think of as providing the greatest learning opportunities occurred while I was program manager of a

large Department of Defense (DoD) project designated by Congress as an acquisition

reform program. I was told I would have my department's support to try almost anything--so long as it wasn't illegal--to improve acquisition in DoD.

One of the things that came to me was to emulate a practice used by many commercial companies, profit sharing. I wanted to establish a way for the people working for me to share in the savings of the program. As I saw it, it was a win-win situation. I was sure the savings were going to be enormous, and I believed it would

stimulate my people to be more creative, innovative, and give them a greater sense of

ownership over the outcome of the program. I said to myself, "Self, you could look

really heroic if you got this approved and your people got a big fat bonus all because

of your brilliant idea." 

Thus I set off on my Don Quixote quest to get approval. 

Despite My Best Efforts

When I went back to tell the people in my department, I found their reaction to

be a little too cool for my tastes. Suddenly they were backing off when I started talking about pay-for-performance incentives. But that didn't matter to me. I already had

fallen in love with my idea and was determined to get approval at the Pentagon no

matter what. 

I commenced to making trips from Florida to Washington, DC every week, talking to various people in the Pentagon, explaining what I had in mind and why it was

such a wonderful idea. All I needed was to get approval, I believed, and there would

be this big cash payment for the people who worked for me.

Over the next two years I spent almost half my time in Washington. I got so carried away that my boss came up to me and told me to stop this. "This is not your job,"

he said. "You've got to get back to your program." 

I told him, albeit in a polite way, "No!" 

So carried away did I get with my brilliant idea that I decided to try and see the

Secretary of Defense himself. The Secretary of Defense, no matter who he is, is a serious man. Fortunately, he was also patient with me. I managed to get an appointment

on his calendar for a 15-minute meeting. I explained my proposal. He listened, and

then he said, "Well, I need to talk with my staff about this." 

12 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners

“

All I needed was to

get approval, I believed,

and there would be this

big cash payment for

the people who worked

for me. ”
My stomach dropped when he said that. Finally, there was this horrible realization for me. All along I thought I just had to get to the right person. Here I thought I

had him. When he said this to me, unenthusiastic as everyone else I talked with, I

knew that I was finished. I knew this because the people he was going to talk with

were the same people I had talked with before I got to see him. 

What I Learned as a Result 

To push the system is the right thing to do, but whenever you make a decision

you always have to weigh the cost. I had in my mind that I was doing this for all the

right reasons, that I was doing it because I was standing up for the people who were

working for me, the people who worked 10 to 12 hours a day, the people who came

in on weekends. Because they respected me and I was leading them, I felt motivated

to keep pressing forward. But once it became about me, about my success, I lost sight

of the fact that I was responsible for them back home in Florida,where the real work

of the project was being done. The cost of pushing on the system,in this case, far outweighed the benefits.

What I learned derives from three big mistakes I made.

Mistake one: I lost focus. I forgot what my job was and why I was there. The

whole time that I was devoted to my campaign to bring profit sharing to everyone on

my team the real work of the program unfortunately suffered, so much so that when

we moved into the next phase it was almost terminated because of things that

weren't done in the previous phase. The major reason for this neglect was because I

was spending so much of my time at the Pentagon. 

Mistake two: I didn't realize it at the time, but I persisted at this for so long not

because I was impassioned about trying to help my people. Instead, it became about

keeping my ego from being bruised. I persisted because I couldn't admit that I had

failed. I couldn't admit that this hill was too tough to climb. I closed my eyes to everything except my own focus and my own desire to be recognized for achieving this

thing that nobody else had ever done. That was clearly wrong.

Mistake three: After this was all over and I looked back and saw that it was my

fault that the program experienced so many difficulties, I felt disgusted with myself.

I thought constantly about what I had done, how I could be so stupid, and it took

nearly a year for me to come to some kind of peace with myself. For a year it made

me draw in and not want to push anymore, it made me timid and risk-averse, and

that is a crippling state of mind to be in for a project manager.

TERRY LITTLE

The Don Quixote Complex 

A P P L 13 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

( C O N T I N U E D )

To push the system

is the right thing to do,

but whenever you make

a decision you always

have to weigh the cost.

”

“
( C O N T I N U E D ) The Don Quixote Complex 

I learned three major things from this experience. One was how important it is

to maintain your focus no matter how attractive it might seem to go after something

that's not quite within the focal plane. Two, how important it is to separate your ego,

that is, your self-worth, from your job. Three, how critical it is when you do make a

mistake--and when you are trying to do anything at all you are going to make mistakes--to forgive yourself immediately and move forward. Yes, you need to forgive

yourself immediately, not six months later, not a year: immediately. By not forgiving

myself I was only compounding the other two mistakes.

The irony of it all is that I did get approval to start a profit sharing program, but

only for civilian employees. Uniform military were prohibited. Because not everyone

could participate, we decided not to implement it. 

TERRY LITTLE

14 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners

“

I persisted because I

couldn’t admit that I had

failed. ”
John Brunson is currently assigned to the Systems

Management Office with the

Marshall Space Flight Center. His

career in the space industr y

began in 1980 as a technician

working on the first Space

Shuttle. Mr. Brunson is also a distinguished member of the ASK

Review Board.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

A P P L 15 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

STORIES: JOHN BRUNSON

The Trouble with Success

by John Brunson

In preparation for the February 1996 reflight of the Tethered Satellite System

(TSS) payload, the Marshall integration and test team traveled to Kennedy Space

Center to support the Interface Verification Test (IVT) between the satellite and tether connector. The test,which was run in the summer of 1995,proved to be hotter than

the Florida sun and caused the team to sweat just as much. 

We were feeling the heat because TSS hardware was failing to pass the IVT. A

great deal of our frustration was caused by the fact that this system had flown before

and had successfully passed the same test. The Marshall and Kennedy test team,

many of whom had been involved during the first mission,pulled together to try and

understand the cause of this failure.

On the surface there was no reason for this simple but critical test to be failing.

Every precaution had been taken between missions to safely stow the hardware.

Inspections were made prior to connecting the two halves. The same procedure successfully used during the first mission had been followed,and we had made no modifications to the hardware.

As the integration and test team lead,I had to make the call back to Marshall and

alert the Program Manager as to our status. We were eight months away from launch

and a solution was needed quickly to keep us on schedule. All eyes, including

Headquarters, were focused on us identifying and correcting the problem.

Start With the Obvious 

We were fortunate to have good people from Marshall, Kennedy, and the contractor community as members of the team. We also pulled in expert help from outside as needed. You've got to remember that success occurs due to the "people" on the

team and their commitment to solving "the team's" problem. Everyone on the team

understood the urgency of the problem. 

It's hard to describe exactly the energy that comes from working on a crack team

in a pressure situation like this. Say nothing of the fact that all the while everyone

knew our actions were being watched throughout the Agency. We all were doing the

best job we could anyway, but with this "little" bit of added pressure, it was an awesome motivating force. Situations like this are when the true character of the individuals and their contributions to the team surface. When you actually experience

something like this at a crux moment in a project, it's almost like you are operating

in a totally new space, and you yourself are transformed, knowing that the energy

you are getting from your teammates is bringing out the absolute best in you.

All eyes, including

Headquarters, were

focused on us identifying and correcting the

problem.

“

”
Onboard Space Shuttle Atlantis a crewmember used a 70mm handheld camera to capture this medium closeup

view of early operations with the Tethered Satellite System (TSS).

Hours were spent reviewing procedures and drawings. We considered all the

contingencies that might be contributing to the problem. Additional testing and

analysis was conducted and evaluated. We spent hours gathered around the conference table, throwing ideas out and putting them up on a white board. The pros and

cons of each one were explored, and the proponents of their theories argued vigorously why one was superior to another.

STORIES: JOHN BRUNSON

( C O N T I N U E D ) The Trouble with Success

16 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners

“

You’ve got to remember that success occurs

due to the “people” on

the team and their commitment to solving “the

team's” problem.

”
Finally, we selected an option to implement, what came to be known as the "360

Degrees Test," and were hopeful it would support our assumptions, verify the problem and, if successful, lead us to correcting the problem, re-running the IVT, and verifying our fix. 

You look for the obvious and try to work your way back. We believed the connector on the tether side was manufactured improperly and was actually cocked off

its normal perpendicular path and recessed by several thousandths of an inch back

into the connector body. The 360 Degrees Test allowed the team to connect, disconnect, rotate, and reconnect the bottom half in 15 degree increments. This test was

designed to find the region around the connector that got connectivity.

It was obvious to us when we got the data back that there was a manufacturing

problem within the Tether Connector. The vendor acknowledged that it was a manufacturer's defect. There was a great sigh of relief all around because we knew the

problem could be fixed quite easily. X-rays and other data helped to verify this. Once

we were satisfied with all the test results, we set off to replace the connector and ultimately passed the IVT.

You May Never Know How Close You Come 

The moral of this story is, "The trouble with success is you may never know how

close to failure you came." As I said at the start,this mission was a reflight. There was

actually no change between the first time we did the integration and the second. The

procedures we used were exactly the same. Probably the first test team got lucky and

nailed the connection just right. 

We have known risks in every program, and we have unknown risks because it's

the nature of the beast. The problem is our past successes drive the schedule that we

create for reflight missions. We try to plan for the best we can, but until the vehicle

is up in the air in an environment it was built for, doing what it is supposed to do,

you have a lot of restless nights. Plan and hope for success, pray for luck,but be ready

to address failure.

Lessons

• If results do not meet expectations, for better or worse, we have little choice but

to see this as an opportunity for learning.

• Teamwork is of the utmost importance during crisis situations.

STORIES: JOHN BRUNSON

The Trouble with Success

A P P L 17 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

( C O N T I N U E D )

?

Question

To what extent does luck

play a role in project success?
Michael Skidmore is the

Manager of the Sensors 2000!

(S2K!) Program and is the

Technology Development Manager

for the Life Sciences Division at

NASA's Ames Research Center.

S2K! generates development

opportunities by integrating available technologies and technological needs from disparate science,

engineering, and operational

organizations within NASA, in

other government agencies, and in

academia.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

STORIES: MICHAEL SKIDMORE

Three Screws Missing 

by Michael Skidmore

To say that the Russian Space Program's (RSA) approach to space flight is different than NASA's is at best an understatement. I had the opportunity to experience

some of this difference firsthand in late December 1996 while working with our

Russian counterparts to prepare for the launch of Bion 11. This was the ninth mission in the COSMOS/Bion series and the first conducted under a bilateral NASA/RSA

contract. 

This mission was different from earlier ones in that it was our first joint mission,

whereas on prior missions we flew as invited guests. This time we had control of 50

percent of the science payload. Earlier missions had covered a range of experimental

models: everything from simple cell cultures to non-human primates. The purpose of

this current mission was to study the physiological effects of flight on two 4-5 kg.

male rhesus monkeys.

NASA's role, in addition to specific scientific research goals, was to develop the

bioinstrumentation and to work with our Russian counterparts to ensure that it was

fully functional when integrated into the spacecraft. A striking indication that this

was a different world from anything I'd experienced at NASA occurred when we got

to the Plesetsk Cosmodrome in northern Russia where the launch took place.

It was December and the conditions in northern Russia during winter are obviously quite cold. Even so, this was an exceptional time. All of northern Europe was in

the grip of a fierce winter storm, so the temperatures outside were especially harsh

and the snow quite deep. On one occasion, while returning to the base late in the

evening, the snow was falling so heavily we couldn't see more than a few feet in front

of the bus, and snowdrifts on the road were piled up as high as the hood. That the

driver could see the road, could keep the bus on the road, and got us safely back to

our quarters struck me as a small miracle.

What was also remarkable about this episode was that none of our Russian counterparts seemed to regard the bus ride as anything out of the ordinary. Understand

correctly, in no way am I trying to suggest their attitudes were cavalier. What is

"remarkable," I think, is how their composure reflected the "get-the-job-done" culture

of the Russian Space Program. Blizzards, sub-zero temperatures, hazardous road conditions, these were certainly obstacles to overcome, but did they ever weaken anyone's resolve? You never heard so much as a complaint. 

We saw this kind of stoic resolve throughout the project. One of the most impressive examples was when they had to deal with assembly and integration procedures

to mount a top cover to one of their enclosures. The Russians found out they were

short three screws so someone on their team found a box of parts, dumped them out,

18 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners
fished through them until they found three screws that fit, and we were back in business. At NASA you can visualize a more "resource intensive" environment where the

screws would arrive in certified containers with a specific screw for each position and

mounds of paperwork verifying each part's heritage back to the quarry.

The setting of the Bion 11 Project. 

Despite our cultural and work-related differences, we worked effectively with our

Russian counterparts. Why? I would say the main reason was that together we

approached the project as a unified team in the strongest sense of the word,meaning

we shared the same goal of bringing off a successful mission. The two sub-teams were

able to function as one united and effective team, overcoming the natural obstacles

of an advanced technological endeavor. The key to this was collocation.

The bond and trust we established by working together, as well as suffering

together, cannot be overstated. It was a tremendous improvement to be able to talk

directly with them as a problem arose. For instance, on the night of the launch there

appeared to be a technical glitch and we were called down to the launch facility from

the hotel where we were staying. At first the Russians suspected it was an issue with

our hardware. We could look at the equipment, discuss it with them, and we were

able to establish categorically that it was not our hardware to everyone's satisfaction.

STORIES: MICHAEL SKIDMORE

Three Screws Missing 

A P P L 19 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

( C O N T I N U E D )

The bond and trust

we established by working together, as well as

suffering together, cannot be overstated...

“

”

What is “remarkable,” I think, is how

their composure reflected the “get-the-job-done”

culture of the Russian

Space Program. 

“

”
Could we have achieved this as quickly and pleasantly as we did via distance? I will

venture an opinion that our collocation under these austere conditions went a long

way to warm their ears to what we said. 

While we had some differences of opinion along the way, in part because there

were fundamental differences in our approaches, overall the mission was a success.

It was quite an education for me, working within the Russian system and seeing how

differently they address and resolve problems. The take-away lesson for me was the

realization that you can arrive at success in many different ways. The Russian procedures, while much less paper intensive and seemingly more accepting of risk than the

US methods, h ave been quite successful. The modified Soyuz rocket and

Cosmos/Bion spacecraft have a success ratio in the range of 98%. While I wouldn't

go so far as to embrace their methods, there is certainly something we can learn from

their experience and attitude that limited resources are a challenge, not a showstopper.

Lessons 

• There is always more than one way to complete a project on time and on cost. 

• Collocation helps to overcome cultural differences between individual members

and provides the entire team with a unified sense of purpose.

STORIES: MICHAEL SKIDMORE

( C O N T I N U E D ) Three Screws Missing 

20 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners

?

Question

When is paperwork an

indication of an orderly

process, and when is it a

reflection of mistrust?
ABOUT THE AU

Jenny 

the Deputy for th

Commercializatio

THOR

Baer-Riedhart is

e Public Affairs,

n and Education

(PACE) Office at the NASA Dryden

Flight Research Center. Before that

she was the Program Manager for

the ERAST Program in charge of

technology flight testing for

Unpiloted Aerial Vehicles. She has

worked her entire career at

Dryden, starting out in propulsion

engineering on the first computercontrolled jet engine for the F-111

project.

STORIES: JENNY BAER-RIEDHART

Know Thyself-- But Don't Forget to Learn 

About the Customer To o by Jenny Baer- R i e d h a r t

Crash and Learn

I made several appearances at NASA Headquarters (HQ) to brief higher-ups on

the status of my program when I was the program manager of a Joint Sponsored

Research Alliance (JSRA). Early on in this endeavor, I learned a key lesson in working with multiple customers. Always know the folks you're meeting with, and always

tailor what you're going to say based on who you know will be there.

I learned this the hard way, I'm afraid to say, after getting thrown out of people's

offices. What can I say, I'm a slow learner. I wasn't quite as attuned to the personalities in the room as I should have been, what their requirements were, what their

problems might be with what I was saying; I failed to realize that I was basically perceived as a threat, a bringer of very bad tidings.

"Hey we've got this great program back in California," I said, and from the word

go they were hammering me. They didn't want to hear anything about a program

aimed at developing Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) technology.

"This is not going to work! This is not the kind of airplane we want! Why are you

telling us about this!" 

From their standpoint, I was the enemy, someone who would suck up resources

they needed in other areas.

I should have seen it ahead of time. The thing is I did see it, but I thought all I

had to do was show up and explain how successful the program was and voila, they

were in my pocket. Yes, I knew how they were fighting for their other platforms, how

they had their own constraints and clients whom they had to please, but I believed

in my heart that this program was important for NASA and that I could convince

them of it. 

What I failed to recognize was that people are not convinced just because the

seller believes she has a wonderful product. The seller needs to understand what the

buyer wants from a product. 

Staying Alive

You cultivate supporters at HQ by putting yourself in other people's shoes and

learning what do they want to get out of this. In my case, I imagined that I was on

the other side of the table and I've got a tight budget and I'm looking at having to cut

programs. "Tell me why should we keep you alive?" they're going to ask. I think,

'What would I want to hear if I was in that position?' I would want to make sure I

A P P L 21 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

I failed to realize that

I was basically perceived as a threat, a

bringer of very bad tidings. 

“

”
had a viable program, a program that I could get recognition for, one I could get congressional backing for; it should be successful, and it might as well be unique too.

Even better, it should NOT have to cost a lot of money.

And that, basically, was how I packaged it. 

Pathfinder in flight over lakebed.

But before I went anywhere near HQ again, I did some serious training. I got in

shape. You might even say I went to boot camp.

Mainly I found people who appeared regularly at HQ to talk about their programs and used them as a sounding board. We set up role-playing sessions, or what

we endearingly referred to as our "murder boards." Folks from my Center and other

partners in the JSRA pretended to be my audience back at HQ. We didn't just pick

people arbitrarily, we looked for ones with areas of expertise similar to those we knew

I would interface with at HQ. I briefed them with the charts I was going to take, they

told me what I'd be killed on,and I changed what I had to in order to stay alive. When

I went back to HQ, it still didn't feel like I was among friends, but at least nobody

kicked me out of his office.

"Here's my understanding of where you guys need to be, the missions you need

STORIES: JENNY BAER-RIEDHART

( C O N T I N U E D ) Know Thyself-- 

But Don't Forget to Learn About the Customer To o

22 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners

“

You cultivate supporters at HQ by putting

yourself in other people’s shoes and learning

what do they want to

get out of this. 

”
to be looking at, the platforms you want to support." 

Basically, I just figured out what mattered most to them. The information I gathered straight out of their reports. I said to them this is what you guys want, and this

is how I can deliver.

"This airplane is going to provide you with sensors that are better than any of the

ones you've currently got. These sensors you'll be able to use on the platforms you're

already flying and at a much lower cost." 

I brought charts that were worth more to my program than an original Picasso.

Talk about visual aids, I had one with 40 pictures showing all the things we were

doing and how they were interrelated. It was eye watering. They were blown away.

The rest of course, is history. Years after the events described here, the program's

legacy demonstrates our work to sell UAVs at HQ was well worth the effort. Helios

soared this summer to world altitude records, and reached the thinnest edges of

Earth's atmosphere. There is even talk now that someday a craft based on this design

is going to be used to study the atmosphere on Mars. By then, I expect, no one will

ever recall our early battles to prove we had a winning project from the start. 

Lessons 

• There are times when the role of the project leader is simply to sell the project. 

• Projects can, and do, succeed because of politics. And they fail because of politics as well. Politics does not have to be a dirty word. If it means working closely and

openly with customers and stakeholders,it is an essential approach that requires continuous dedication of time and attention. 

• The most compelling sales pitch you can make is not that you have something

wonderful to sell. It is 'I understand what you need.' 

STORIES: JENNY BAER-RIEDHART

Know Thyself-- 

But Don't Forget to Learn About the Customer To o

A P P L 23 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

( C O N T I N U E D )

?

Question

How do you work to discover what your customer

wants and needs?
ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Ray Morgan has recently retired as Vice President of

AeroVironment, Inc., where he

established the Design Development Center in 1980, the division

of AeroVironment that develops

and produces its aircraft, serving

as Director until April 2000. Mr.

Morgan has overseen more than

75 projects and the development

of over 50 unique vehicles, including over 35 Unmanned Aerial

Vehicle's (UAV's) in his tenure at

AeroVironment Inc. AeroVironment

has been globally recognized as a

pioneer in solar powered and electric aircraft, and has placed 5 of

its vehicles in the Smithsonian

Museums.

STORIES: RAY MORGAN

Our Man in Kauai

by Ray Morgan

Before we went to Hawaii to begin flight tests on the Pathfinder solar-powered

airplane, we knew we needed the support of the local community there. Otherwise it

was going to be a struggle to achieve any of our goals.

We'd chosen the island of Kauai because of the favorable conditions there for

high altitude flight tests and also for the opportunity to perform demonstration science missions over areas that were uniquely undisturbed by humans. But to take

advantage of these conditions, we had to overcome obstacles that were far more

down to earth. 

For one thing, no one had ever gotten permission to fly an Unmanned Aerial

Vehicle (UAV) in FAA airspace there beyond the site of the operator. While we could

conduct our high altitude test flights without leaving the airspace controlled by the

Navy, to perform the science missions planned over the island we needed to operate

in FAA controlled airspace.

In a place like Kauai,where the locals are faced with a combination of a high cost

of living and few jobs at the professional level, coupled with a highly desirable environment that prompts many to want to find a way to live and work there, there is a

natural apprehension about outsiders. In spite of a natural desire to be as helpful as

possible, there is a sense of past exploitation, and it is important to be sure that an

inappropriate (if unintended) impression isn't made. It helps to find someone who

can serve as your entree into the community. In that way, Dave Nekomoto was our

man in Kauai.

Dave is a fourth generation Japanese-American, born and raised in Hawaii. He

was a former Executive Officer at the Navy base where we were conducting the flight

tests. Like a lot of the Kauaians we met, Dave had more than one job. Primarily, he

was the manager for the local branch of a support contractor on the base. In addition,

he worked with the Kauai Economic Development Board in trying to bring more technology-based jobs to Kauai. He also worked as the Director of Operations and helicopter pilot for a local land owner, Mr. Bruce Robinson, whose family is a longtime

sugar cane producer in Kauai. The Robinson family owns a third of the island of

Kauai. Dave flies helicopter tours over the Hawaiian Island of Niihau,which is owned

by Keith and Bruce Robinson. This private island, Niihau, was determined to be one

of only a few options where our fragile aircraft could make a contingency landing on

terra firma,making the difference between recovery and loss of the unique aircraft if

an emergency landing had to be made. One thing Dave did for us was smooth the way

with Mr. Robinson so that we could land on Niihau if we needed. 

24 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners
Dave also was our "ace" chase pilot, flying a videographer/photographer to document the flights with air-to-air shots near the islands. More importantly, Dave introduced us to the unique culture of Kauai and the Pacific Missile Range Facility (PMRF)

where we operated, and helped us "fit in" and establish a good rapport with the local

community.

Dave did favors like this because he liked us and considered this type of support

part of his job(s). That was the main ingredient we found in any business dealings we

did on Kauai. It was a culture where your personality always took you further than

the size of your billfold. With Dave we endeared ourselves to him right away because

among other things, we devoured all the tasty food he and his friends Vince and

Johnny cooked for us in their giant (and I mean GIANT) woks, and sang with him.

Yes that's right, we sang.

Dave had--how shall we say--a thing for karaoke. Anybody who was tight with

Dave spent time with him at his house singing. This was Dave's way of relaxing at

the end of the day, and he had quite an elaborate set up at his place for it.

Microphones, speakers, and acoustics any garage band would kill for..., plus, he must

have owned every song ever recorded. The lyrics flashed across a television screen,so

all you had to do was punch a button on a computer and there was the song, sans

vocals of course. It was up to you to fill them in, and heaven help you if you were

bashful. 

No one on the Pathfinder team had a Sinatra voice, but we managed to get everyone to sing something. Even those who were painfully shy managed a few lines of

"Happy Birthday." It was all in good fun,and more importantly it showed we had the

"right stuff," in that we weren't afraid to risk embarrassment and that we all trusted

each other with our most important possession, our egos.

One could not possibly overstate the importance of these karaoke nights at

Dave's in terms of their bearing on the success of our project. Dave invited many

folks from the base that we worked with each day. Also, the whole NASA and

AeroVironment team was there, along with spouses, children, and other friends that

had come over for a visit. It brought the team together and it made friends with our

Hawaiian and military hosts. Without Dave's karaoke parties we probably still would

have eventually ingratiated ourselves with the community, but developing a social

relationship certainly broke the ice and formed a basis of trust.

From Dave we learned things about Kauaian culture that we didn't know beforehand, for instance, the utmost regard Kauaians have for those who educate their children. Hence, in planning our marketing strategy on the island--yes, we had a marketOur Man in Kauai

A P P L 25 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

( C O N T I N U E D )

It was a culture

where your personality

always took you further

than the size of your billfold. 

“

”

No one on the

Pathfinder team had a

Sinatra voice, but we

managed to get everyone to sing something. 

“

”
ing strategy, don't you have one for your project?--we developed educational programs in the schools and put together displays at the local museum. We ourselves

helped to write the lesson plans and NASA Public Affairs Education Outreach professionals led training workshops for the teachers to show them what we were doing

so that they could share this with the kids. The Kauai Community College sponsored

a solar powered racecar which was a jewel in their crown of technical achievements.

We involved the community college by hiring students to work for us at PMRF,

exposing them to advanced solar technology by being part of our team. This was done

on Dave's advice and he put us in direct touch with the right people at the college--it

helped that his brother in law is the Dean of Instruction there. Working with the base

commander and public affairs office, the NASA and AV team orchestrated an open

house that brought in approximately 1000 local schoolchildren to see the Pathfinder,

its payloads, and key parts of the PMRF support equipment. We jokingly called this

event the "1000 Kid March," and the name sort of stuck. It was tremendously successful and students and teachers from across the state participated in this memorable event. 

The community, to put it immodestly, fell head over heels in love with us. "This

is a good thing," people were saying. "These people are doing something special." That

kind of talk has a way of making things happen. Dave was quick to let Hawaii's political machine know what was going on with our project at PMRF, which resulted in

Hawaii's entire congressional delegation sending a letter to NASA commending us on

the success of our program. Suddenly money that hadn't been available before

appeared and this gave the project some extra lift, so to speak, making our attempts

at a world record altitude flight a viable goal. Also, people on the island that worked

at places we stayed, places we ate, and the airline and car rental agencies all got to

know many of the team. When we had to make travel arrangements that were subject to change with events in our flight schedules, this relationship proved very

important. 

By the time we left,every Kauaian knew about Pathfinder and what we were trying to accomplish--and,more importantly, they were behind us a hundred percent. To

vouchsafe this, we made sure that they felt like Pathfinder was as much their project

as it was ours. Everyone on the island was welcome to come out and see the airplane.

In busloads they did. When we broke the world record, we held a flight celebration

and invited all of our hosts and PMRF support personnel to join us at one of the parks

near the base. We provided all the food and entertainment. It was a bash. 

STORIES: RAY MORGAN

( C O N T I N U E D ) Our Man in Kauai

26 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners

“

One could not possibly overstate the importance of these karaoke

nights at Dave’s in

terms of their bearing

on the success of our

project. 

”

“

We came to Kauai

not knowing exactly how

the human dimension

would figure into our

activities, but we knew

whatever way it worked

itself out was going to

be critical to our success.

”
Mars Pathfinder Lander Preparations.

Indeed, nothing paid off more for us than cultivating friendships in the community. A small example of this is the day after the big celebration. When we got to the

base the next morning and discovered a problem with our phone system, within ten

minutes someone was there and it was fixed. A bigger example of course is we got

the permission we sought to fly outside FAA airspace. We managed to accomplish

this with less red tape than what we were required to go through at our home base

in California. 

I'm sure the cynics will look at this and say all we were doing was wooing the

community to get what we wanted. For those inclined to see the world this way, you

can bet they make little distinction between a friend and an asset. The way I see it,

we had friends on the island; if they were assets too, that's beside the point. We

enjoyed sharing our accomplishments with everyone who wanted to be part of the

team. The world record was all of ours.

Many times in our projects we think that just being smarter than someone else

or having the best idea is all we need. That helps, no doubt, but you've got to understand the human side of things. We came to Kauai not knowing exactly how the

STORIES: RAY MORGAN

Our Man in Kauai

A P P L 27 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

( C O N T I N U E D )

None of us can do

much by ourselves, it is

only with the help of others that we do great

things. 

“

”
human dimension would figure into our activities, but we knew whatever way it

worked itself out was going to be critical to our success. That's why we set aside

money in our budget specifically for the kinds of activities described here. Call it marketing, but by the time we left Kauai, we were probably spending up to 20 percent of

the project time on it. 

Bottom line, people are the most important part of any operation. None of us can

do much by ourselves, it is only with the help of others that we do great things. It is

important we recognize our interdependence in any enterprise, and the earlier we do

it, the easier things are, and the better they work. 

Certainly, a lot of factors contributed to our success in the skies above Kauai. No

doubt one very important factor is that the people of Kauai felt invested in our success and wanted to do whatever they could to help us reach our goals. Whatever

advancements derive from our work on Pathfinder, the support of the Kauaians who

helped make it possible must never be forgotten. And, our man in Kauai, Dave

Nekomoto, was our guide in finding that support, walking us through blessings, celebrations, traditions, culture, sharing with us his local contacts and "mana'o", the

Hawaiian word for wisdom. 

Lessons 

• Cultural differences can impact the success of a project and it behooves the

Project Manager to learn how best to work with unique cultures.

• Soft is hard. All sorts of "crazy ways" of cooperation affect project success.

• When in Rome, behave like the Romans. Adjust to the demands of the local culture even if it means singing karaoke.

STORIES: RAY MORGAN

( C O N T I N U E D ) Our Man in Kauai

28 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners

?

Question

Would you please share an

example in which you sang

karaoke (figuratively) to the

benefit of your project?
Michael Jansen is currently the Manager for Launch Onneed at Johnson Space Center in

the External Carrier's Office of the

International Space Station

Program Office. He also serves as

ASK Magazine's Associate Editor

for Practices.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

STORIES: MICHAEL JANSEN

The Lawn Dart

by Michael Jansen

The Voodoo Crew

It wasn't too long after I agreed to be the Thermal Integration Manager for the

Space Shuttle Advanced Solid Rocket Motor (ASRM) program that I gained an appreciation for why the thermal community was always viewed by the Shuttle Program

Office as a group of "out-there" voodoo practitioners.

Because it was, well, true.

Despite a technical background that included aerothermodynamics, I was still

surprised by the degree (no pun intended) to which cutting edge predictions of

Shuttle ascent aerodynamic and plume heating depended on educated guesses and

extremely murky empirical formulae. My new team, comprised of highly seasoned

experts from two NASA Centers and a half-dozen contractor companies, apparently

based its products on equations laden with fudge-factors, the values of which were

argued strenuously at each meeting of the governing Thermal Panel--which I now

chaired. To each prediction,a margin of safety was attached, the magnitude of which

also depended on the much-argued consensus of the Thermal Panel. With this being

the state of the art, no wonder our craft was viewed by outsiders as black magic.

One of the major components of ascent heating, the radiation produced by the

Shuttle's two solid rocket booster plumes, was known to depend on the size and distribution of individual aluminum-bearing particles throughout each plume.

Estimates of this crucial variable were crude at best, and were based on extrapolations of data collected from firings of much smaller motors with different propellant

mixtures than that of the ASRM. As a result of this uncertainty, the factor of safety

applied to radiation predictions was typically on the order of 100%. Such large uncertainty margins presented a significant impact to the design of the Shuttle launch

vehicle's thermal protection system, as well as to the vehicle's ascent profile. The

effect on the Shuttle system's payload-to-orbit capacity was not good. 

But how to improve the accuracy of the prediction? Conventional means of collecting particles would have required a significant test equipment design effort; even

if we could piggyback on already-planned tests, we'd have to design and build instrumented test stands able to withstand the harsh plume environments. And we had no

budget for such an endeavor.

Fortunately we had our share of out-of-the-box thinkers on our voodoo team,and

the thought du jour was... Lawn Dart! 

A P P L 29 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

With this being the

state of the art, no wonder our craft was

viewed by outsiders as

black magic.

“

”
QM-6 test firing at Wasatch Operations, Morton Thiokol, Utah. 

Seeds of Our Magic

One of the analysts had spent his early career with the Coast Guard, and was

familiar with the harpoon-like guns used to hurl hawsers from Coast Guard ships to

other boats to allow the two vessels to be lashed together for boarding. He assumed,

and was correct,that such surplus equipment could be acquired via inter-agency requisition. His boss, a member of our Thermal Panel, proposed to me that he get a couple of these guns and have one of his co-operative education students design a particle-catching projectile for them to hurl through the plume. The scheme quickly drew

the moniker "lawn dart." 

Several upcoming subscale solid rocket motor tests would provide excellent

opportunity to test and fine-tune the system and collect preliminary data. The major

payoff would come later,if we could collect particles from the plumes of two full-scale

test firings. The guns were free, the co-op needed a meaningful project to work on,

and this organization's discretionary budget could handle the minor materials costs

associated with fabricating whatever lawn dart design the co-op came up with. 

Vital data at no cost to the program? How could I say no?

The co-op proved to be especially inve n t i ve, and devised a blunted aluminum dart,

the bulbous head of which was covered with double-sided tape. The time to transit the

plume was calculated short enough not to allow the contraption to melt. We secured the

use of an electron microscope to allow an admittedly arduous counting of particles of

STORIES: MICHAEL JANSEN

( C O N T I N U E D ) The Lawn Dart

30 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners

“

Once the lawn dart

team learned to shoot

straight, we were set

for a test with a real

plume as target. 

”
various sizes per unit area of tape. The machine shop quickly produced several specim e n s, and the initial non-plume test firings initiated by remote control were successful. 

Once the lawn dart team learned to shoot straight, we were set for a test with a

real plume as target. 

The first subscale motor test firing of the lawn dart was nearly its last. The motor

sat in its vertical test stand with the exhaust end pointed skyward. Once the motor

was fired and its plume was well established,the lawn dart team did its thing, whereupon the dart was promptly carried several hundreds of feet into the air with the

plume, only to fall back to strike the test stand. Suddenly, the test director wasn't so

sure he wanted to let our bunch near his equipment. After much cajoling, and once

we reduced the dart's fin surface area, he gave us the OK for a second attempt. This

one sent the dart through the plume, but not without another surprise: an unanticipated, plume-assisted journey several hundred yards out the other side--which

required a determined search to find the darn thing. Nonetheless, the team was jubilant. The darts were surviving their journeys with only minor scorching, and the

materials lab analysis showed we were indeed capturing excellent particle samples!

After a second refinement of the dart's design, the lawn dart crew was ready for the

full-scale motor tests.

As it turned out, the crew did an expert job; the darts launched during the two

critical tests flew beautifully, intersected the plumes at the points of interest, and collected particle samples that allowed the analysis team to develop a repeatable particle size distribution model. Along with the concurrent radiometer measurements our

team took, and the factoring in of some computational fluid dynamics predictions of

the plume flow's structure, the particle data allowed us to refine our radiation models to the point that the prediction uncertainty level could be reduced from 100% to

10-15%. This represented a major leap forward in the state of the art, all made possible by some out-of-the-box thinking.

Gotta love that voodoo engineering! 

Lessons 

• In a problem-solving situation, all ideas (no matter how "out-there") should be

considered. 

• We shouldn't be so focused within our professional specialties that we forget

we are the sum total of our life-experiences; the solution to a work-related problem

may well lie within the memory of some totally non-work-related experience.

STORIES: MICHAEL JANSEN

The Lawn Dart

A P P L 31 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

( C O N T I N U E D )

?

Question

How often do project managers use “alternative”

resources to solve technical

problems?

This is Michael C. Jansen's third

story to appear in ASK. Like Mike's

writing? Read his other two stories, Natural Relationship and

Garage-Style Engineering, in previous issues.
ABOUT THE AUTHOR

W.Scott Cameron is

Capital Systems Manager for the

Food & Beverage Global Business

Unit of Procter & Gamble. He has

been managing capital projects

and mentoring other capital management practitioners for the past

20 years at Procter & Gamble

within its Beauty Care, Health

Care, Food & Beverage, and Fabric

& Home Care Businesses.

FEATURES: W. SCOTT CAMERON

The Hour Glass and the Project ManagerPart 2: Improving your Hierarchical IQ by W. Scott Cameron

In Part 1 of this article, I asked you to think of the Project Manager's (PM's) job

in terms of an hourglass. In this analogy, the top of the hourglass is the PM's hierarchy, the bottom the project team,and the connecting tube the PM. The hourglass sand

can be anything from proposals, directions, data, and other forms of articulated communication to the unstated forms of communication like assumptions, perceptions,

and/or prejudices that pass between the two parts. A PM's success is often determined by his or her ability to effectively manage this passage of sand! 

In Part 1, I focused mainly on the PM's role in managing the project team. Here

I will consider the other end of the glass, the hierarchy. I base much of what I know

on my own observations. You have probably noted that little is written or taught

about how PMs should manage their hierarchy. The "Dilbert" cartoon strip may even

be the most widely cited authority on this subject. My experience derives primarily

from an opportunity I once had to report directly to a manager four levels above me

and to assist in managing his project teams and his hierarchy for two years. This, perhaps, could be the most insightful experience of my career. I learned what was important to five separate levels in my organization! 

What PMs Say About Their Hierarchies

The comments I hear from PMs regarding their hierarchies generally tend

toward varying states of bewilderment:

"They want me to manage everything and don't want to be disturbed." 

"They've done this before...they should know how tough it is!!" 

"They can't handle the truth!" 

"They can't make up their minds and its hurting my project" 

"They're busy and don't have time to spend with me." 

"My hierarchy wants to meet with me regularly to follow my project's progress." 

"They know what needs to be done, why don't they just do it?" 

" H i e r a r chy was totally aligned to my project 6 months ago. What could have changed?" 

32 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners
Things to Keep in Mind

Some things PMs must realize about hierarchy: 

• Hierarchy is comprised of individuals, each with his or her own biases, assumptions, experiences, expectations, concerns, and knowledge about the project,the project team,and the PM. When a PM lumps all these individuals together, "they" become

much harder to manage than any one individual. 

• Hierarchy is comprised of levels. The individual needs and expectations of one

level toward the PM may be at odds with those at other levels. A PM needs to understand what the needs and expectations are at each level and determine a strategy to

address them. 

• Not all hierarchy has decision-making rights on a project. A PM has to be able

to understand and differentiate what each level can accomplish. 

• Hierarchy has information about future events that can impact the PM's project. The PM must gain the hierarchy's trust and confidence to obtain this information

as soon as possible to properly manage the project team. 

Your Hierarchical IQ

I believe PMs should take the following steps to measure and then improve their

hierarchical IQ: 

• Understand your authority on the project and what items require decisions

from outside the project team.

• Learn, early in the project's life, about all organizations whose hierarchy may

impact your project.

• Learn the name and level of the individuals in the hierarchy you plan to maintain a communication link with. Understand what decisions pertinent to your project each level is able to make.

• Hold regular meetings (group or 1:1) with specific members of the hierarchy to

better understand each one's needs and expectations throughout the life of the project.

• Bring the hierarchy together on a regular basis to review the project. Too often

the PM assumes the hierarchy discusses the project and the PM's concerns with one

another. This is not always a safe assumption. 

If you don't understand who your hierarchy is and how they can impact your

project, you don't have a very high hierarchical IQ! 

FEATURES: W. SCOTT CAMERON

The Hour Glass and the Project ManagerPart 2: Improving your Hierarchical IQ

A P P L 33 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

( C O N T I N U E D )

You have probably

noted that little is written or taught about how

PMs should manage

their hierarchy.

“

”
Communicating With Hierarchy

Once you take the above steps, you need to improve on the following two areas

to better influence your hierarchy and increase your hierarchical IQ.

1. Sharpen your listening skills. Surprisingly, few PMs really listen to what their

hierarchies are trying to tell them. If you ever wanted to be that infamous fly on the

wall, remember that flies aren't known for being big talkers. PMs want to communicate their thoughts, ideas, plans, etc. to the hierarchy. This is good and expected of

you, but the key is to listen to what the hierarchy is telling you about your project.

Learn what could positively or negatively impact it, and then act accordingly.

2. Sharpen your proposal making skills. PMs should be very clear what they want

the hierarchy to do. Don't allow hierarchy to try and guess what you want from them.

If you want them to do something, you should have the conviction to ask for it. If you

don't want them to do anything, you should state this clearly. PMs should understand

what they want of their hierarchy prior to meeting with them either in group settings

or in 1:1 meetings.

This wraps up my thoughts on the Hour Glass and the Project Manager. Now it's

time to go out and practice what you've learned. Hurry now, as the sand is always

flowing in your hourglass.

FEATURES: W. SCOTT CAMERON

( C O N T I N U E D ) The Hour Glass and the Project ManagerPart 2: Improving your Hierarchical IQ

34 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners

“

Don’t allow hierarchy

to try and guess what

you want from them.”
Terry Little is in the civil

service with the Department of the

Air Force, where he has been a

program manager for five major

defense acquisition efforts. He

entered the Air Force in 1967 and

served on active duty until 1975.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

FEATURES: TERRY LITTLE

The Art of Scheduling

by Terry Little

Most managers I know think that constructing a schedule is primarily a technical activity. I have found over the years that creating a realistic schedule for a complex project is mostly an art--one requiring lots of intuition,judgment and guesswork.

I don't profess to know all there is to know about scheduling, but I have a few

thoughts that might be useful. 

First, "the system" will measure a project's success by how closely it meets the

original schedule. This is true regardless of how thoughtful,complete, or realistic the

schedule. You would think then a wise manager would develop a schedule that provides some slack for uncertainty, risks and inefficiencies. Guess what, this is often

more difficult than it would seem. 

Typically, the project manager is under enormous pressure to be optimistic about

the schedule. The pressure can stem from a variety of things: higher management

(i.e., by way of mandated schedules or reduced cycle time imperatives), fiscal constraints, contractor promises, or simply from the need to "sell" the project. It's easy,

albeit wrong, to succumb to these pressures and come up with an optimistic, "successoriented" schedule as a starting point or baseline. The project manager must resist

these pressures and write a schedule that is relatively conservative. I have found that

viewing the schedule as a personal commitment or a contract, as opposed to merely

an estimate, serves as a bulwark against the pressure to adhere to someone else's

notion of what the schedule should be.

Second, the amount of work needed to complete a project will always expand to

fill the time allotted to the project. This is especially true when engineers are

involved. This seems to argue against a conservative schedule, but here I must distinguish between the "public" schedule and the "work-to" schedule.

The schedule I described above is the public schedule--the one that the project

manager commits to on paper. The actual schedule that the team works toward

should be more challenging than that--one that requires stretching, innovation and

some luck to achieve. We have to be careful not to stretch too much, of course, and

must remain focused on what we can realistically accomplish. But very often when

the team challenges itself this way the project finishes earlier than the public schedule mandates. Having two schedules may complicate things, but I have found the

benefits far outweigh the problems.

Third, I have found that you cannot separate how long work will take from who

is doing the work. This seems obvious, but seldom finds its way into scheduling.

Many project managers approach scheduling by considering technical risks, work

scope and complexity, yet they ignore execution risk. Some persons, teams and/or

A P P L 35 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

Just as it is unreasonable to expect a

draft horse to compete

in the Kentucky Derby,

so too is it unreasonable to expect a plodder

to meet an ambitious

schedule. 

“

”
companies work quickly while others are more methodical, plodding or mistakeprone. Just as it is unreasonable to expect a draft horse to compete in the Kentucky

Derby, so too is it unreasonable to expect a plodder to meet an ambitious schedule.

Because of this, I use the past performance of whoever is involved on the project as

a major factor in putting together a schedule. This is what I consider as the execution

risk, and why I am uneasy relying on so-called independent schedule estimates that

ignore who is doing the work. 

Finally, one of the major reasons for schedule slippages is uncontrolled requirements growth. In some cases, requirements growth is a fact of life. The manager may

have to just accept growth, but, other things being equal, added work should equal a

longer schedule. Too often I see managers who willingly agree to adding work without either increasing the time or money to do the work. In effect, this makes adding

requirements seem "free." It is bad business and can turn a realistic schedule into

wishful thinking.

I have found it useful--and this doesn't come easy to me--to create a very bureaucratic process for changing requirements. Basically, I say there will be no changes in

requirements until (1) decision makers understand the cost and schedule implications of the change, and (2) decision makers explicitly agree to those implications. It

is quite amazing to see how a process that simply establishes accountability for

requirements growth promotes better discipline and yields more realistic schedules.

Many project managers succeed or fail depending on how well they deal with

scheduling. The champion or master project manager understands that creating a

realistic schedule is one of the most crucial challenges he or she will face.

FEATURES: TERRY LITTLE

( C O N T I N U E D ) The Art of Scheduling

36 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners

“

I have found it useful

—and this doesn’t come

easy to me—to create a

very bureaucratic

process for changing

requirements. 

”
ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Ray Morgan has recently retired as Vice President of

AeroVironment, Inc., where he

established the Design Development Center in 1980, the division

of AeroVironment that develops

and produces its aircraft, serving

as Director until April 2000. Mr.

Morgan has overseen more than

75 projects and the development

of over 50 unique vehicles, including over 35 Unmanned Aerial

Vehicle's (UAV's) in his tenure at

AeroVironment Inc. AeroVironment

has been globally recognized as a

pioneer in solar powered and electric aircraft, and has placed 5 of

its vehicles in the Smithsonian

Museums.

PRACTICES: RAY MORGAN

Refining Procedures: Calling All Stakeholders 

by Ray Morgan

Background 

For the longest time, we were not procedures oriented at AeroVironment. One

guy at the top typically wrote flight procedures, and often that guy would leave out a

whole bunch of stuff because, after all, he's just one guy... there were things he didn't think about. 

Another problem that stemmed from having just one guy write the procedures

was that not everyone used the same nomenclature. The guy who writes a procedure

gets used to calling something by a nickname and that's how he identifies it in the

procedure. But if other people who have to use the procedure aren't familiar with that

nomenclature, you can imagine their frustration in trying to understand what the

author of the procedure is talking about,not to mention the potential for disaster that

exists because of this.

But the most significant problem we found with autocratically handing down

procedures was that people were far less likely to follow procedures that they neither

created nor could change. Procedures are tools. Like tools, they need to be sharpened

and honed. Any good craftsman wants to sharpen his (her) own tools. What's more,

people feel less stress when they can control how they perform their tasks.

When developing small, quick-and-dirty prototypes, it is often most economical

to just "fly it" and see what kind of problems there are. Sloppiness is intolerable when

you work with expensive and essentially irreplaceable sophisticated airplanes like the

unmanned, solar-powered vehicles that we specialized in at AeroVironment. With

unmanned airplanes, what the pilot does is just a tiny fraction of what the airplane

is trying to do. To fix a problem, you usually need to get a grasp of an entire system.

If you've got a bunch of people who understand parts of the system, you bring them

together to make intelligent decisions using each of their areas of expertise.

Hence, we realized a couple of common sense things to help refine our methods

of writing procedures: (1) one person is not as smart as a group, and (2) a person at

the top may not understand things the same way as does someone looking at it from

a different perspective, such as a technician who is actually performing the task. 

Creating the Procedures 

Our first rule was always to "put the person closest to the problem closest to the

solution." Whenever possible, the person(s) who actually performs the task creates

the procedure for it. Providing this type of ownership is invaluable. It is also the most

efficient way to create the procedure. Certainly, we had people cross-check their procedures with co-workers, but we recognized that we had to provide a way with hanA P P L 37 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP
dling the inevitable mistakes. This process of continuous improvement by the

"owner" of the procedure accelerated the rate of development of the procedure, and

allowed us to both rapidly refine a procedure and also allow for a quick response to

changes in the system during the flight test program. 

Refining the Procedures 

1. We read through the procedure with a group of people who are involved. We

also invite other people who are not directly involved with the procedure to provide

some objectivity. We'll get a bunch of changes from that--that's generally where we

catch the inconsistencies in nomenclature. On the next iteration the labeling is usually very close to being error free.

2. We then get everyone together for another read through. This time we have

the actual hardware in front of us, and we'll practice just as we would as if we were

going through a flight--a prototype of sorts. This time we catch, for example, that the

pilot has turned the damping switch off before he started another test that required

the damping switch to be on. The guy who owns that process--it may be the pilot, it

may be a stability and control engineer--will take note of that and be responsible for

correcting the current version of the procedure.

3. The next time we will sit at the ground control stations--we have a stationary

one and a mobile one (that follows the aircraft during takeoff and landing). We'll go

through the whole process again with the same people, using the latest rewrite. This

is the last run-through before the actual flight.

4. After the flight, we get a group together to look at whether there were any abnormalities that could be attributed to a procedure or discuss any "red-marked" changes to

a procedure made during the flight. The person who is the owner of a procedure captures any issues that came up and corrects the procedure before the next practice. 

Tips

This process allowed us to come up with a procedure that everyone understood

and could follow to the letter. You must see it as a continuous improvement process.

With a group of people working together you can probably turn out a perfect procedure in no more than 2 to 3 iterations, depending on how complicated a procedure it

is of course. Another benefit is that more people feel ownership for the procedure.

Not every project may require such a rigorous approach for developing procedures as

we used at AeroVironment for developing flight procedures, but certainly all projects

benefit from this sort of attention to detail. 

PRACTICES: RAY MORGAN

( C O N T I N U E D ) Refining Procedures: Calling All Stakeholders 

38 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners
Example: Surf/Beach/Shallow water crash of Aircraft

Symptom: 

• Aircraft crashes in or near surf. Aircraft is close enough to shore that it could

migrate onto beach with wind and wave action. 

• Aircraft crashes on sand, but is exposed to surf spray that wets surface.

Rules: 

• If Aircraft crashes in deep water, the aircraft will be allowed to sink, or scuttled,

and not recovered. 

• If Aircraft crashes in the surf, where it is evident it will be moved on shore by

the winds and currents, it must be recovered. 

SHOCK HAZARD (120VDC) 

• It is possible to receive a lethal shock from the aircraft whenever it is in the sunlight, if surfaces/components have been exposed to salt water. The solar array will

continue to produce power in the daylight, and the saltwater could provide conduction of lethal voltages and currents in an unpredictable fashion. Unless fuses are

blown, Li batteries also provide shock hazard, even at night. 

Pilot Tasks 

1. Turn all motor switches off.

2. Contact Aircraft Pilot if airborne and request visual assessment of crash site

and relay to Mission Director.

Engineer Tasks 

1. Provide GPS location to Mission Director 

Mobile 1 Tasks 

1. Drive Mobile GCS to within visual range of Aircraft, if near runway, to get best

signal path from Mobile 1 to Aircraft, and allow Mission Director to assess situation. 

Mission Director Tasks 

1. Proceed with MISHAP PLAN 

General Comments:

PRACTICES: RAY MORGAN

Refining Procedures: Calling All Stakeholders 

A P P L 39 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

( C O N T I N U E D )
Jerry Madden retired from NASA

in 1995 as Associate Director of

Flight Projects at Goddard Space

Flight Center. During his distinguished 37-year career, he was

considered by many of his peers to

be one of NASA's "premiere"

Project Managers. Outside the

Agency, Jerry is widely recognized-

-and often quoted--for his "100

Lessons Learned for Project

Managers," a collection of mostly

serious, sometimes funny (128

actually) observations about proj -

ect management that he compiled

over the years. 

Since his retirement, Jerry has

remained active by serving on several NASA review boards, by working part time at the Smithsonian

Institution's Air and Space

Museum, and by sharing his

wealth of knowledge about project

management with anyone who has

a mind to tap his abundant generosity and frankness. 

INTERVIEW: JERRY MADDEN

ASK talks with Jerry Madden

ASK: How do you like being a reviewer? Does it feel like you're on the other side

of the fence, so to speak? 

Madden: Unfortunately, you get the same feeling. At least I do. You feel responsible for the mistakes that are made. That's what you're there for, to make sure these

people don't make any mistakes. You hope when you go to a meeting you find nothing, that things are fine. But that doesn't happen too often. 

ASK: What advice would you give a young project manager at NASA today? Let's

say someone who has just been assigned his first project. 

Madden: The first thing I tell them to think about when putting together their

team is look at who you have available to you and what are their backgrounds. Once

you've put together a good working team and explained to them how you are going

to run the show, the next thing you've got to do is get a cursory knowledge of what

you're going to be doing. Learn the basics of the project. If you're going to fly a scientific mission, the least you've got to do is go out and learn about the science that's

going to be done. Get a couple of general books. Don't try and get too detailed an

understanding because you'll never be able to catch up if you aren't already knowledgeable in the subject. Read so that you understand the nomenclature and to get a

grasp of the basic principles. One thing that a manager has to know is the nomenclature and what it means. When I first started in this business, I was a mathematician and was working on telemetry data. I didn't know anything about telemetry, so

I went down to Radio Shack and got a simple book on telemetry. When an engineer

came in and started spouting off about this stuff, he couldn't believe that I knew what

he was talking about. It's very painful to listen to a presentation of supposed facts

and you don't even understand the language. I've been to meetings where somebody

gets up to explain something using the language that goes with that trade and all of

a sudden you'll notice eyes glass over because they've lost it. You can't afford to be

one of those glassy eyed guys if you're the project manager. You've got to understand

what people are saying.

ASK: What's the greatest difference between the world of a NASA project manager today and when Jerry Madden was a NASA project manager? 

( C O N T I N U E D )

40 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners
Madden: Project management itself hasn't changed. What has changed is that the

systems have gotten so much more complicated. In the old days, you could hold the

whole spacecraft in your mind. Now you can't hold one subsystem in your mind. In

the early days, the people who were building the hardware knew what they were

building, knew all its functions, and if someone gave them a piece to build that wasn't right they'd know it. Now they don't. It's too complicated. 

ASK: What should a project manager be doing then in this sort of environment? 

Madden: You still go out and get the best people you can. You give them the

authority to do their job. You give them the most resources and money you can. For

instance, you get a systems engineer who understands his main job is the requirements and interfaces. To me a failure today--and it was a failure before, and it will

probably always be a failure--is that you don't have someone interfacing with the people who are actually doing the work. You have to have someone on your project that

understands manufacturing and building hardware and can talk with the technicians

who are putting it together and find out if they are having any problems. The same

is true with the software. Someone has to understand how the stuff is organized. One

program I was reviewing we looked at the software and everything was going along

fine, but something didn't feel right and we could never put our finger on what it was

until it blew up. If someone had gone down to the people who were doing the programming and putting the subroutines together, you would have found out that these

people were concerned and worried,but they had to get the work out, and they were

getting it out, right on schedule--it's just that the work didn't WORK. 

ASK: If you were a project manager at NASA today, what would you be doing differently than 15 or 20 years ago? 

Madden: Paperwork. I'd be doing lot's more of it. Managers today have so much

damn paperwork to do. They spend maybe 40 percent of their time, if they spend that

much, managing the actual work they think they're managing. The paperwork has

multiplied in every direction. 

ASK: Paperwork I suppose is a byproduct of the complexity, but is it possible to

manage a project today without all that paper? 

INTERVIEW: JERRY MADDEN

ASK talks with Jerry Madden

A P P L 41 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

( C O N T I N U E D )

In the old days, you

could hold the whole

spacecraft in your mind.

”

“
Madden: Oh no, you need all that paperwork just to identify everything that's

going on. You also need to have a risk management plan. We used to laugh when the

first risk management reports appeared. If a project manager didn't know the risks

he was facing, he shouldn't be building anything. Now much of the risk is buried in

the details and is hard to evaluate from the top so a good analysis of risk has to be

done.

ASK: Were you a risk taker?

Madden: Of course I was. A project manager has to be. More importantly, though,

you've got be able to learn from your mistakes. Some of the risks I took in the early

days were foolish, but I learned. One time I had a weight problem and threw out the

inertial dampers. When it came around to another program and we had a weight

problem again, one of my men came to me and said, "Are you going to get rid of the

dampers again?" and I told him, "No because I only need to make an ass of myself

once." That's the truth; once was all I needed. 

ASK: Was it easier to be a risk taker in those days? 

Madden: With the early spacecraft there were definitely things you could do that

you couldn't get away with today. That's because they weren't as expensive as they

are today. The more money that is at stake, generally the less risk you could take. In

the old days, we used to have a saying, 'The freight train leaves.' The scientists knew

exactly what we meant by that. If you don't make the flight on time, we're not waiting for you. On a mission where there were 15 or 16 scientific instruments, we wouldn't give a second thought to flying without one. We'd fly without two. We used to say

we'd put a lead brick on board to cover the weight. On the present space craft all the

instruments are so damn expensive you don't lift off without one of them. 

ASK : What do you think about the Faster, Better, Cheaper culture? 

Madden: The Faster, Better, Cheaper culture is fine, but if you're doing something

Faster, Better, Cheaper it has to meet those criteria. A small satellite in the $100 million range you can do Faster, Better, Cheaper, but everyone has got to understand

you're taking a risk. You can't do something extremely complicated Faster and Better.

You can do it maybe Better, but you can't do it Faster and Cheaper too. It takes a cerINTERVIEW: JERRY MADDEN

( C O N T I N U E D ) ASK talks with Jerry Madden

42 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners

“

With the early spacecraft there were definitely things you could do

that you couldn’t get

away with today.

”
tain amount of time. You also have to have extremely good people on the Faster,

Better, Cheaper project--better than you have on the bigger projects. To do something

Faster, you normally have to cut corners. To do it Cheaper, you cut some of the manpower. You've got to make sure you are cutting the right manpower.

ASK: In your "100 Lessons Learned for Project Managers," you said it's not the big

things that do a project in, it's the little.

Madden: You rarely get clobbered by the esoteric things. If you go and look at

most of NASA's failures, it's usually something small that someone overlooked. The

one that got me was a very simple power supply. We had flown over 60 of these. The

people putting it together were brand new, so why not give them something simple.

They were easy to build and therefore it was supposed to be a mundane task. We

ended up losing the spacecraft because a screw was too long and it shorted the power

supply. On another spacecraft, the screw was too short. A screw for one of the modules was holding on by less than a thread. Nobody looked at it. We were lucky that

time. The point is, it's not unusual for that kind of thing to happen. 

ASK: When you selected your people for a project, what criteria did you use? 

Madden: I wanted people who would take charge. Someone who would say this

is my piece of the puzzle and wanted to manage it. I would give my people the greatest leeway I could. There were only a few things they couldn't do, and they knew

what those were. Other than that, whatever decisions were made in that area were

made by them. I didn't micromanage. I think anyone who tries to micromanage

today is a fool. There's too much detail. Somebody has to be very familiar with what's

going on in great depth,and the project manager can not do that. He has to count on

his people to do it for him. 

ASK : Would you suggest that the project manager handpick every individual on

the project? 

Madden: Normally I would let the people in charge of areas of the project make

their own choices. But the project manager should try and know everyone. It also

doesn't hurt to know the people not on your project. I remember one time we were

in deep trouble and needed help so we asked the Center to give us some backup supINTERVIEW: JERRY MADDEN

ASK talks with Jerry Madden

A P P L 43 The NASA ACADEMY OF PROGRAM AND PROJECT LEADERSHIP

( C O N T I N U E D )

If you go and look

at most of NASA’s failures, it’s usually something small that someone overlooked.

“

”
port. We gave them a list of 12 people who could fill our needs. None of the names

we asked for was available, so they offered us a couple of others. We didn't take anybody they offered because we knew we would have been worse off than with nobody.

ASK: Do you think that management itself has evolved over the course of your

career and in recent years? 

Madden: I think the basic management principles are the same, but the tools are

better. The computer gives you a lot of different methods of looking at what is going

on. The ability to have your data laid out in nice graphs and charts so that you can

visualize where you're at, that's certainly nice to have. Provided the data is accurate.

That's something that's always worried me. I've seen too many beautiful plots and

charts where the data underneath crumbled if you touched it. I think the computer

really helps the modern-day manager if he uses it correctly, but the first thing is you

have to be able to trust the data. 

ASK: Is there any single characteristic that you've recognized among the superior project managers? 

Madden: The best project managers are the ones who pick the right people to

manage the day-to-day work of the project. In some ways, he's fundamentally nothing more than that, someone who picks good people.

ASK: How do you learn to do that? 

Madden: By working with people. If you're not a people person, you really

shouldn't be a project manager. There are good ones who aren't,but for some odd reason that no one can account for they still manage to get the right people to work for

them.

ASK: Is that the only talent you feel is worth noting?

Madden: Yes. Because people are what make a project. 

INTERVIEW: JERRY MADDEN

( C O N T I N U E D ) ASK talks with Jerry Madden

44 ASK MAGAZINE: For Practitioners by Practitioners

“

I’ve seen too many

beautiful plots and

charts where the data

underneath crumbled if

you touched it.

”