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 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 

 + + + + + 

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING 

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE 

 + + + + + 

 DISCUSSION OF HIGH EFFICIENCY MOTOR 

 TREATMENT IN COMMERCIAL HVAC EQUIPMENT 

 + + + + + 

 WEDNESDAY 

 AUGUST 14, 2013 

 + + + + + 

 The Committee met in Conference Room 

6075, 950 L'Enfant Plaza, at 2:00 p.m., Neil 

Eisner, Facilitator. 
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PRESENT 

NEIL EISNER, Facilitator 

LAURA BARHYDT, DOE General Counsel 

ALEX BOSENBERG, NEMA 

JOHN CYMBALSKY, DOE 

JEREMIAH FREEMAN, New West Technologies 

EMILY MARCHETTI, Energetics 

MIKE RIVEST, Navigant Consulting 

PRESENT VIA WEBINAR 

KARIM AMRANE, AHRI 

TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice 

LAURA DEGITZ, Navigant Consulting 

DAN DELANEY, Regal 

PAUL DOPPEL, Mitsubishi 

SCOTT DURFEE, Nidec Motor Corporation 

SKIP ERNST, Daikin McQuay 

MARK FLY, AAON 

GEOFFREY HALLEY, ABMA 

TRAVIS HARDIN, UL 

RANDY HASEMAN, UL 

JILL HOOTMAN, Trane 

JOHN HURST, Lennox International 

DIANE JAKOBS, Rheem 

TOM JOHNSON, Daikin McQuay 

JEFF KLEISS, Lochinvar 

MICHAEL KOJAK, UL 

JONATHAN LEMMOND, AHRI 

PAUL LIN, Regal Beloit 

ARIS MARANTAN, Navigant Consulting 

JOHN McLAUGHLIN, Daikin McQuay 

KAREN MEYERS, Rheem 

FRANK MYERS, PVI Industries 

STEVE PICKLE, Johnson Controls 

RANDY RODRIGUES, WEG 

NEIL ROLPH, Lochinvar 

PHILLIP STEPHENS, HTP 

JOHN SUTPHEN, Cleaver-Brooks 

RUSTY THARP, Goodman Manufacturing 

TOM WALSH, Daikin McQuay 
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 2:14 P.M. 

3 MS. BARHYDT: This is Laura 

4 Barhydt. This is the Commercial HVAC Water 

5 Heating and Refrigeration Certification Working 

6 Group small group meeting. We're here to 

7 discuss the use of electric motors in commercial 

8 HVAC equipment. In particular, we're going to 

9 be talking about the substitution of different 

10 motors within a basic model to address different 

11 required static pressures for specific 

12 applications. 

13 Perhaps, Mike, you could walk us 

14 through DOE's original proposal and some of the 

15 issues that have come up since then. 

16 MR. RIVEST: Okay, this is Mike 

17 Rivest. I don't know if there's a need to go 

18 through the original proposal in detail, but 

19 in principal what we were trying to do is to 

20 make sure that the motor that was being used 

21 to certify a grouping of different products, 

22 that the motor being used was representative 
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1 of the motors being used in all the other 

2 products. And one way that we proposed we might 

3 be able to do that would be to compare the 

4 efficiency of the motor being used in what's 

5 called the certified model with a national 

6 standard applicable to that class of motor and 

7 create from there, if you will, a revised 

8 efficiency level. And that efficiency level 

9 would then be translated to larger motors using 

10 the terms same percentage reduction in losses 

11 from a standard or same increase in losses 

12 compared to a standard. 

13 And a number of equations were shown 

14 and some examples about how to calculate that. 

15 

16 We also distributed a spreadsheet 

17 that would make it quite simple to have a look-up 

18 table that said well if the motor in my certified 

19 model is 93.1, and it's 2 horsepower and if I 

20 use a 5 horsepower in a different model, then 

21 the efficiency for that motor should be 96.2. 

22 It was meant to be very simple that way. 
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1 What came up at the last meeting is 

2 that some of the motors that are being used 

3 currently actually have no applicable test 

4 procedure, so they don't have an efficiency 

5 rating. And it would make application of this 

6 rule, if you will, very difficult, if not 

7 impossible. 

8 So I was hoping today is to maybe 

9 have some motor experts describe the types of 

10 motors that couldn't be -- where we couldn't 

11 use this type of algorithm, the reasons why we 

12 couldn't do it, what is it about the test 

13 procedure that makes it difficult to evaluate, 

14 could we be changing the test procedure, those 

15 types of things. And hopefully, once we've 

16 understood why we can't do it this way, maybe 

17 we can come up with an alternate way of 

18 addressing these types of motors, keeping in 

19 mind that what we're trying to do is just ensure 

20 that the motor being used in products that are 

21 directly certified are not less efficient than 

22 the ones being tested. 
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1 I have a few ideas myself, but we 

2 can go there later. Is there anyone from NEMA 

3 or AHRI who is going to present a little bit 

4 what the issues are on your side? 

5 MR. LIN: Well, I think maybe the 

6 first question for the motor guys is to try to 

7 translate exactly the product scope that we're 

8 talking about so that we can categorize the 

9 motors that would fit within the category of 

10 the HVAC equipment. 

11 MS. BARHYDT: So whoever just spoke 

12 if you could identify yourself and if everybody 

13 could make sure you state your name before 

14 speaking so that our reporter can actually 

15 create the transcript for us of exactly who is 

16 saying what. 

17 MR. LIN: I'm sorry. This is Paul 

18 Lin with Regal Beloit. 

19 MR. RIVEST: So the scope we're 

20 talking about here is there are test procedures 

21 to measure the performance of air conditioners 

22 and embedded in those metrics is the energy 
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1 consumption of the motors under certain 

2 conditions. And that's a factor in the 

3 calculation of EER and potentially other metrics 

4 down the road. So the scope is any motor that's 

5 in the unit that's measured in the test 

6 procedure. 

7 MS. BARHYDT: Perhaps some of the 

8 HVAC manufacturers could talk about the 

9 different types of motors that they use in their 

10 products? 

11 MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharp with 

12 Goodman. And we typically use 48 frames and 

13 56 frames, mostly air-over products, motors, 

14 and a lot of our small commercial as defined 

15 by DOE and less than 55,000 BTU product. But 

16 then I believe some of the higher horsepower 

17 motors are probably general -- would be more 

18 classified as general purpose. 

19 MS. BARHYDT: And so Rusty, are 

20 those types of motors ones that you would be 

21 swapping out within a basic model? Is the issue 

22 correlating the performance of say a 56 frame 
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1 with a general purpose motor because that 

2 changeover would be within one basic model? 

3 MR. THARP: I think that is a 

4 portion of the issue. I believe that the 

5 proposal that was last given would actually be 

6 acceptable for that situation where a 

7 manufacturer may use an air-over rated motor 

8 in their base model and a general purpose motor 

9 in their higher horsepower models. 

10 However, I think the bigger issue, 

11 as my understanding, not being a motor expert, 

12 obviously is that the air-over motors do not 

13 have an industry standard test procedure or 

14 industry standard rating procedure. So that 

15 if the base motor -- all base motors that are 

16 air-over may not be tested the same way, 

17 therefore, there may be some variance in the 

18 efficiency reported of the base motor and also 

19 the horsepower rating that would be used for 

20 comparison also would not necessarily be 

21 consistent from manufacturer to manufacturer. 

22 MR. DELANEY: This is Dan Delaney 
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1 from Regal. Just to add on to that, that's a 

2 very good point and the point that I was going 

3 to try to share. There's some other aspects 

4 about what was just shared about the 48, 56 frame 

5 rating so if you look at, you know, the lower 

6 end of 48, 56 and you're talking about fractional 

7 and lower integral horsepower, there's not many 

8 delineations in the NEMA tables for those 

9 applications. 

10 You find a lot of these air-over 

11 applications are winding up in the fractional 

12 or decimal type of horsepower or a lot of them 

13 even yet have no horsepower because horsepower 

14 is irrelevant. This is a sampled motor that 

15 goes in that is usually specifically designed 

16 for that type of application or that pressure 

17 or whatever that unit happens to be. But the 

18 general purpose horsepower per pull count 

19 doesn't usually fall in nicely to this air-over 

20 in addition to what was said about being able 

21 to test those at efficiencies where a general 

22 purpose continuous motor can be loaded at a 
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1 horsepower to speed, obviously set to test 

2 standards to IEEE or CSA to define how that test 

3 is run. And their air-over motor cannot run 

4 continuously without its application being the 

5 definition of air-over. 

6 So whether it's belted or direct fan 

7 application, it's necessary to have that exact 

8 setup of the air-over and that, of course, makes 

9 it difficult to measure the torque which is very 

10 critical to the efficiency tests. 

11 So in the DOE motor regulations we 

12 have always considered air-over as out of scope 

13 because of that difficulty. There has been 

14 attempts to address it, address the lack of 

15 air-over test standards, but no one has come 

16 up with a good solution as to how to properly 

17 load it, bring it up to thermal equilibrium 

18 because of the dependency upon that application 

19 determines the load on the fan, the cooling, 

20 so all those integral points are necessary to 

21 be able to test that efficiency. So that does 

22 create some complications of just trying to look 
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1 at standard efficiencies. 

2 Then one last point on 48, 56 frame, 

3 while a lot of the single phase now will roll 

4 into some regulation into 2015 with the small 

5 motor rule, air-over would be a considered 

6 application, now again, would be out of scope 

7 with the general purpose definition as far as 

8 NEMA is concerned. We can have discussion about 

9 that if that's necessary. But typically again 

10 air-over would be considered not a general 

11 purpose application. So it could be difficult 

12 to determine what to pick the standard 

13 efficiency levels at percentages of loss, but 

14 most of the product would not be typically rated 

15 in that manner. 

16 MR. RIVEST: So a couple of 

17 questions. Mike Rivest. There is an industry 

18 advocacy group proposal to the Department that 

19 would expand the scope of covered products for 

20 regulations and therefore test procedures to 

21 include definite purpose motors. Would the 

22 air-over motors be part of that increased scope? 
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1 MR. DELANEY: So a very good 

2 question. The NEMA and the energy efficiency 

3 advocates, which typically been using the term 

4 motor coalition, made a proposal just as you 

5 stated. One of the five, I believe, five 

6 exempted products would be the air-over. And 

7 the only real reason is the lack of an ability 

8 to test it because the ability to load it and 

9 to test it, you may use a general purpose motor. 

10 Those would be applicable in a belted 

11 application, but unfortunately a lot of them 

12 do rely on air-over and some may not even have 

13 horsepower. Horsepower on the name plate may 

14 be irrelevant without the ability to have a test 

15 data for an air-over that makes the efficiency 

16 regulation difficult, if not impossible to try 

17 to do that. So it's kind of a chicken-and-egg 

18 thing. You need the test standard really in 

19 place in the industry before you can start to 

20 pick efficiencies. 

21 MR. LIN: Paul Lin again. Maybe to 

22 further clarify my previous question, when I 
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1 was asking about the scope, I was more asking 

2 about in terms of the tonnage and more the BTU 

3 that the covered equipment would be just to kind 

4 of frame to the NEMA members, the breadth of 

5 motor that we're talking about. 

6 I think the last conversation I had 

7 with Rusty was basically the scope would 

8 include, the covered equipment would include 

9 42, 48 PSC single phase motors. 48 frame single 

10 phase and 3 phase, 56 frame, and then we start 

11 going up into the 3 phase integral. So there's 

12 a wide breadth of covered products as well as 

13 within the integral side we've talked about 

14 general purpose duty rated, as well as I know 

15 there's some manufacturers out there that have 

16 air-over rated on their motors as well, so there 

17 is quite a bit of difference in terms of covered 

18 motors. 

19 And so just to rely on 1212 and 1211, 

20 I think we miss quite a bit of different 

21 available motors. 

22 MR. RIVEST: So you understand that 
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1 relying on that was merely as a scaler. It 

2 wasn't intended to represent the universe of 

3 motors out there. It's a way of saying if a 

4 motor, a 5 horsepower motor has an efficiency 

5 X, what is the equivalent efficiency of a 10 

6 horsepower motor? So the tables are scalers. 

7 They're not absolute values. And I don't know 

8 if that scaling is less applicable to a motor 

9 because it's cooled by the air around it, rather 

10 than having an integral fan. I don't know that. 

11 You might know that. 

12 Getting back to why this all came 

13 up in the first place, manufacturers were asking 

14 for an exemption for motors operating under high 

15 static pressures. What are -- so really, we're 

16 not talking about outdoor condensers that have 

17 little static pressure, but we're talking about 

18 probably indoor units that face static pressure 

19 that's significantly higher than what is assumed 

20 in the test procedure. Are these motors that 

21 we're talking about here used primarily outdoors 

22 in condenser units or are they used indoors as 
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1 well? 

2 MR. LIN: The scope that I had 

3 talked about are indoor motors. 

4 MR. RIVEST: These are the indoor 

5 motors? 

6 MR. LIN: Yes. Can you define high 

7 static? 

8 MR. JOHNSON: This is Tom Johnson, 

9 Daikin McQuay. This rulemaking goes up to 

10 60-ton package rooftop units and some 

11 water-cooled units and on some of the packaged 

12 equipment, you can go up to 6 inches of total 

13 static pressure. 

14 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with 

15 AAON. And it goes down to any three-phase 

16 equipment which could go down to one or two-ton 

17 equipment. 

18 MR. JOHNSON: Exactly. 

19 MR. FLY: And would also include ECM 

20 motors. 

21 MS. BARHYDT: But we are only 

22 talking about figuring out a relationship 
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1 between motors that would be swapped out within 

2 a single basic model, so we wouldn't be talking 

3 about a swap out between a 3-phase unit under 

4 65,000 BTU all the way up to the largest, very 

5 large commercial package air conditioning unit 

6 because all of that is not going to fall within 

7 the same basic model. 

8 MR. RIVEST: No, in fact, the way 

9 the basic model is defined it has to have the 

10 same refrigeration system. 

11 MS. BARHYDT: Exactly. So the 

12 trick is going to be figuring out a way to talk 

13 about the motors that would be exchanged within 

14 a single basic model, not -- we don't have to 

15 be able to draw a relationship from the very 

16 smallest motor all the way up to the very largest 

17 motor. 

18 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON 

19 again. So for instance, with some of the small 

20 equipment and AHRI standard or test standard 

21 conditions you could be running something less 

22 than half a horsepower and you could go up to 
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1 say two or three horsepower in that same basic 

2 model, just to give you kind of a range. 

3 MR. JOHNSON: And another range, 

4 this is Tom Johnson again. And another range, 

5 a standard test model or base model might be 

6 a 5 or 7.5 horsepower motor in a package unit 

7 and it will go all the way up to 30 horsepower. 

8 So that's another range that you can consider. 

9 MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharp, 

10 Goodman. I would say ballpark, it's roughly 

11 1:5 or 1:6 ratio from the smallest motor to the 

12 largest motor. 

13 MR. RIVEST: And typically, correct 

14 me if I'm wrong here, because the understanding 

15 we have is that because of the DOE specified 

16 static pressure the product will almost always 

17 be certified with the smallest motor and that 

18 certification, say an EER of ten would then be 

19 extended to every other product up to if it's 

20 a half horsepower up to the 3 horsepower. So 

21 what we're trying to do here is make sure that 

22 manufacturers of HVAC equipment don't select, 
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1 for example, an extreme example, an ECM motor 

2 of .5 horsepower, get a super great EER rating 

3 for that unit, and then extend that rating to 

4 the 1, the 2, the 3, the 4, and the 5 horsepower 

5 unit which are potentially not using ECM motors. 

6 The easy way to say it is the motor 

7 you certify with has to be no better than the 

8 motors that you're extending that rating to. 

9 That's sort of the plain English of it. We 

10 can leave it at that, I suppose, but then we'd 

11 be fighting later down the road about what that 

12 means, right? So we're looking here for a way 

13 of describing, a little more accurately for the 

14 lawyers and the engineers down the road, what 

15 we mean by no better or no worse. 

16 It may be that these air-over motors 

17 are less efficient. I imagine they are. Is 

18 that a fair assumption? Of course, there's no 

19 metric to measure it so we won't even be able 

20 to resolve that, but -- 

21 MR. DELANEY: This is Dan Delaney 

22 again from Regal, just to share briefly on that 
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1 comment, we'll say the fractional to 

2 low-integral horsepower are typically less 

3 efficient mainly because they haven't been 

4 regulated and the industry has never really had 

5 a need for it. And there's also the physics 

6 issue with as we get smaller in diameter, we 

7 do get less efficient. So there's a lot of 

8 factors that drive it, but that's a fairly 

9 generic statement it can be less 

10 efficient than its larger or integral horsepower 

11 brothers, let's say. 

12 MR. RIVEST: So if I were to certify 

13 a product, I don't know what the words are any 

14 more, the product group, the basic model that 

15 has multiple size motors in there, how do I come 

16 up 

17 -- how do I describe the efficiency requirements 

18 on those motors? Do I -- can I do it by 

19 technology if I can't do it by efficiency? Can 

20 I say an ECM motor has to be replaced by an ECM 

21 motor? Can I say an air-over can only be 

22 replaced by an air-over? 
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1 I mean at some point in time, 

2 manufacturers are going to have to use an AEDM 

3 and AEDMs have built-in assumptions about watts 

4 consumed. So someone, somewhere knows the 

5 watts consumed by these motors. 

6 MR. LIN: I think the difficulty for 

7 motor manufacturers would be where in the 

8 application that particular motor may be running 

9 at. So let's use that same example, .5 

10 horsepower to 3 horsepower range. A .5 

11 horsepower AEDM could be an 80 percent 

12 efficiency range and then you go up to a 3 horse, 

13 and how do you scale from that 80 percent to 

14 that 3 horse? And then also, if you add a PSC 

15 motor at that same .5 horsepower it would be, 

16 let's say, 65 percent efficient and then scaling 

17 that to a 3 horse with a 12, 11 or 12, 12 table, 

18 I'm not sure you can draw a line between that 

19 because of the difference in the way that the 

20 motor is designed and used. 

21 MR. RIVEST: I'm sorry, could you 

22 explain more? So definitely I can use those 
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1 tables to scale to your 64 to a higher number 

2 for 3 horsepower, right? Why not? 

3 MR. LIN: Well, maybe this might 

4 be a good opportunity -- let's say if we take 

5 an example of a .5 to 3, how would you use your 

6 Excel sheet there to scale from a .5 to a 3 horse, 

7 for example? 

8 So if we had a PSC motor at 65 percent 

9 assuming some operating point and the ECM 

10 operating at 80 percent efficiency at .5 and 

11 then how -- what would the efficiency be for 

12 a 3 horse motor in that same basic group? 

13 MR. RIVEST: Okay. 

14 MR. LIN: Would you be able to 

15 crunch through that Excel sheet that was 

16 developed in order to come up with a 3 horse 

17 example? 

18 MR. RIVEST: Yes, so what is your 

19 -- let's say you had a .5 at 66.5 is that what 

20 that is? I can't read that, efficiency, first 

21 column. 

22 MR. LIN: Say for a PSC motor we'll 
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1 say on after 65 percent efficient for PSC at 

2 half. 

3 MR. RIVEST: So you said a quarter 

4 or a half? I'm sorry, what did you say was the 

5 horsepower rating? 

6 MR. LIN: One half. 

7 MR. RIVEST: One half. So that is 

8 line 8 and then you scroll until you see 65. 

9 I don't see 65. So that is so much less 

10 efficient than that table, but I would have to 

11 extend my columns to have -- 

12 MR. DELANEY: Again, this is Dan 

13 Delaney. You know one thing I wanted to share 

14 before and we can use maybe an example and I 

15 don't really have an example in hand. I could 

16 just make one up, but the tables in which you 

17 have here represent a structured set of product 

18 and that we should probably have said that. 

19 You mentioned that before. So what this table, 

20 the one that you're in, row 8, that represents 

21 cap start cap run and cap start induction run 

22 and polyphase motors essentially in those ranges 
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1 of horsepower. 

2 The table below that, the integral 

3 first power represents polyphase motors. So 

4 the example in which Paul was providing is a 

5 PSC, a permanent split capacitor. It was not 

6 considered within the scope of the regulations 

7 and it does have less efficiency, but it is a 

8 prominently used type product right there. So 

9 is other types of product that are not regulated. 

10 So one of the questions you brought 

11 up, and I struggle a little bit about the scope 

12 as well, and that was something Paul and I wanted 

13 to have better understanding because it is a 

14 wide range as someone mentioned, I think he said 

15 100 and some ton. So we have a large range from 

16 integral horsepower which that can be addressed 

17 there fairly easily, most of them being 

18 polyphase. 

19 As you get into the smaller product, 

20 you can even have shaded-pole product, certainly 

21 PSC is relevant in there, some split phase is 

22 relevant. So there's a wide range. So if we 
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1 limited the types of motors in the application, 

2 yes, there's associated efficiencies, but just 

3 so we understand the tables in which I'm assuming 

4 most of this is based off of the DOE regulation 

5 tables. So those efficiencies of those type 

6 motors are going to be much higher than a PSC, 

7 even at the lowest end, a shaded pole. 

8 MR. RIVEST: So I want to make sure 

9 these tables aren't misunderstood. These 

10 tables don't -- are not minimums of anything. 

11 They just happen to be 1211, 1212, and then 

12 I went 20 percent higher losses, 20 percent lower 

13 losses. We can go 50 percent higher losses and 

14 50 percent lower losses and create a new set 

15 of numbers, but that would encompass every 

16 shaded-pole, permanent-split, whatever you 

17 want. All it does is it establishes your 

18 starting efficiency and then you read down the 

19 column. 

20 So we're not saying that all quarter 

21 horsepower motors have to meet 71 percent or 

22 something like that. So this table can be 
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1 expanded. It's not a problem. And I don't see 

2 why different technologies can't all be worked 

3 with the same table. I mean I've worked the 

4 math. The math is the same. Losses are losses. 

5 All that matters is the horsepower and the 

6 percentage losses. 

7 MR. DELANEY: I guess the reason I 

8 brought that up, I'm glad you understood that, 

9 but the reasons I brought that up is it's not 

10 well understood. There is no segregated loss 

11 test method for the single-phase type of 

12 product. Losses are better understood on the 

13 poly phase because of the test procedure is a 

14 segregated loss method. So it's much better 

15 understood and that's how the NEMA tables were 

16 lined up to fall under those percentage. 

17 Whereas the single-phased product does not have 

18 that same association and I wouldn't say across 

19 the industry it's as well understood percentage 

20 of losses by type or generically by horsepower 

21 either. So less known just simply because there 

22 is no test standard around that. 
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1 MR. RIVEST: In small motors? 

2 MR. DELANEY: In small motors. 

3 MR. RIVEST: I thought we have a 

4 final rule and we're going to be implementing 

5 a standard. 

6 MR. DELANEY: So remember, if we go 

7 back into what we talked about cap start, cap 

8 run product that identifies -- 

9 MR. RIVEST: So the standards apply 

10 only to a limited subset of the motors. I see 

11 what you're saying. But that doesn't -- 

12 MR. DELANEY: Let me continue. 

13 Those standards in which those motors will be 

14 used is just simply an input over output method. 

15 There is no segregation of losses in that test 

16 method, so it's not as well understood, nor has 

17 it been relevant in the industry up to this 

18 regulation point, so I won't say there's a lot 

19 of understanding in the industry today of types 

20 of losses by horsepower, by type, on and on, 

21 right? It is just less understood. Not as much 

22 in the industry to that. 
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1 MR. RIVEST: Okay, you're saying 

2 that test procedure and the ratings of motors 

3 of fractional horsepowers today is not quite 

4 what it needs to be by the time the standard 

5 is implemented. 

6 MR. DELANEY: I won't say that. 

7 Certainly, each motor manufacturer is going to 

8 have their product line ready for regulation, 

9 obviously, unless they're not going to provide 

10 the product at the time, but I don't see a giant 

11 rush for the industry to provide that ahead of 

12 the regulation, I guess is what I'm saying. 

13 So 2015 is when that regulation 

14 becomes effective. Here we are mid to late 

15 2013. It probably will be some time still until 

16 you start to see that higher efficiency product 

17 because it is higher efficiency for the most 

18 part of the products you would find today on 

19 stock, distribution-type availability. 

20 Today's product is going to be on the whole less 

21 efficient, but you're not going to find 

22 efficiencies on most of that product today. 
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1 So the baseline is going to be zero and then 

2 you're going to move into a regulated state at 

3 those regulated levels. 

4 MR. RIVEST: Okay, well, I'm going 

5 to repeat myself, but all we're trying to do 

6 here is make sure that when Trane, Carrier, 

7 Rheem, and Goodman test their units with a motor 

8 that is used to certify a group of units, that 

9 the base model has a motor that is no worse than 

10 the others and no better, I'm sorry. 

11 So if it's a shaded pole that's used 

12 in the certified unit and you want to use a more 

13 efficient type in the larger motor, that's not 

14 a problem. I don't think we need to contest 

15 those things to know that a certain technology 

16 is going to be better. I think if you want to 

17 qualify the product with an induction motor and 

18 make the larger units ECMs, I don't think we're 

19 going to be testing any of that either. 

20 And now I'm going to look at DOE 

21 because we haven't talked about this, but if 

22 you want to substitute an induction motor with 
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1 an induction motor with a variable-speed drive 

2 in your other unit, I think we'd be real happy 

3 with that. Wouldn't care if the induction motor 

4 itself was less efficient. 

5 So it's just common sense we're 

6 trying to get at here and what I'm hearing is 

7 that these tables could work in integral 

8 horsepower motors pretty simply, but it gets 

9 complicated in the fractionals. 

10 MR. DELANEY: One suggestion, and 

11 I apologize. I just wanted to make sure we had 

12 the right thing we were talking about there. 

13 Would you mind continue that example -- you 

14 brought this Excel spreadsheet out and I 

15 apologize for getting us off track, but 

16 nonetheless, if you wouldn't mind just using 

17 the 3 horsepower example picking some point off 

18 there and explain that method again just for 

19 our sake. 

20 MR. RIVEST: So let's do the easy 

21 part, okay? Let's pretend the 3 is the smallest 

22 in the family of basic -- a family of products 
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1 all certified under the same basic model. So 

2 the 3, what you do is you walk down the columns 

3 until you find the efficiency of the motor you 

4 used in your basic model that's certified. So 

5 in this case, let's say it's 88.9. All right? 

6 Turns out that that motor has 6 percent more 

7 losses than the standard. If you're 

8 going to then extend that certification to a 

9 unit with a higher static pressure that has -- 

10 that requires a 10 horsepower, you walk down 

11 that column until you hit 10 horsepower and that 

12 is the efficiency of the motor you need to 

13 install in that larger unit at a minimum. 

14 So each of those columns is self 

15 contained. You find which column you belong 

16 to by knowing the efficiency of the base model. 

17 It's a scaler. I'm using the standard as a 

18 scaler, but I'm not using the standard for 

19 anything to require minimums. 

20 Does that make sense? 

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Mike, this is Jill 

22 from Trane. One of the questions I've had on 
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1 this though, you said there's no minimums, but 

2 in fact, there are minimums for that type of 

3 motor that you have in that table. Isn't that 

4 correct? 

5 MR. RIVEST: There are no minimums 

6 because I didn't -- I mean that table -- so I 

7 just picked plus or minus 20 percent losses. 

8 But we can extend it to a motor that's much 

9 less efficient. That's not a problem. 

10 MS. BARHYDT: I think what Jill is 

11 saying is that that table is based off of motors 

12 that are subject to a federal standard. 

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 

14 MS. BARHYDT: And so there is a 

15 minimum, but I think part of what DOE's thought 

16 was if you took a comparably sized direct purpose 

17 motor that was not subject to the standard, it 

18 would be possible to obtain one that does not 

19 have the efficiency of the federal standards. 

20 And so we contemplated both an increase and 

21 a decrease relative to the standard. 

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 
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1 MR. RIVEST: I'm sorry, I hadn't 

2 understood your question. Yes, if we're 

3 talking general purpose motors, there's a hard 

4 minimum there. So you couldn't go in values 

5 below that have greater losses. 

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, but if they're 

7 definite purpose there isn't necessarily -- 

8 MR. RIVEST: There isn't. So as 

9 long as you're in the same relative efficiency 

10 to the standard upper or lower, it's okay. 

11 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. Okay. 

12 I understand now. 

13 MR. RIVEST: And that's why I think 

14 if your base model had a shaded pole motor at 

15 20 percent efficiency, then this table could 

16 work as well, so long as we added columns for 

17 greater increases in loss. 

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John at 

19 DOE. Maybe we can use the concrete example. 

20 And if I'm asking a question I shouldn't be 

21 asking, just tell me and I'll take it back. 

22 But let's just say Company X is asking you for 
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1 one of these air-over motors and they said give 

2 me the 1 horsepower air-over motor and this is 

3 the one they used to certify with DOE. If they 

4 ask for a 5 horsepower air-over motor, do we 

5 know what the properties of that are? 

6 I know you said the physics are such 

7 that the bigger they are, the more efficient 

8 generally they will be, just because that's the 

9 way it works. But can the motors guys say 

10 anything more than that or because there's no 

11 test procedure, we have no idea or what's going 

12 on? 

13 MR. LIN: I think what Dan was 

14 trying -- this is Paul Lin with Regal Beloit. 

15 What Dan was trying to explain is say when you 

16 put the qualifier that it's an air-over, the 

17 issue is how much air do you provide on the test 

18 stand when you're testing the motor for its 

19 efficiency? What size fan? Where is the air 

20 directed over the motor? How much air is 

21 directed over the motor? May have big 

22 consequences in terms of how much material you 
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1 can take out of the motor in order to meet the 

2 efficiency. That's the biggest question that 

3 we have is, if you use this table and you have 

4 an air-over, how do you measure the efficiency 

5 of an air-over rated motor? 

6 MR. RIVEST: Right. That's the 

7 problem. I mean that's what I understood the 

8 problem coming into this meeting. 

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: But if you were to 

10 supply an HVAC guy with a 1 or a 5 horse of the 

11 same air-over and they're putting it in a box 

12 in their product, I mean is there anything you 

13 could say about the difference between the one 

14 and the five at all? Given the rest of the 

15 circumstances being the same? 

16 MR. RODRIGUES: This is Randy 

17 Rodrigues at WEG. The issue on the air-over 

18 is that as somebody mentioned before, there's 

19 not necessarily, it's not like the motor has 

20 a fixed point of operating, so the same motor, 

21 you could make the same motor a 3 horse or a 

22 5 horse depending on how much air you're putting 
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1 over the motor and it's got different 

2 efficiency points, of course, when you're doing 

3 that. But it's a combination of load along with 

4 the amount of air you have over the motor cooling 

5 it. So it doesn't have the same kind of defined 

6 point that says here's the characteristic to 

7 call it a 5 horse motor or a 3 horse or a 1 horse. 

8 You get a pretty wide variety that way. 

9 MR. RIVEST: Right, in other words, 

10 you're driving it harder, hotter. You don't 

11 mind because you're cooling it. But there's 

12 got to be some normalization. 

13 MR. RODRIGUES: You're taking away 

14 more heat with more air, so it can operate 

15 higher. 

16 MR. RIVEST: Right. But if I am an 

17 HVAC manufacturer and I'm working with you, 

18 you're my supplier, I'm going to want to know 

19 how many watts that motor consumes here. Is 

20 your design criteria that it doesn't -- it just 

21 doesn't burn or do you go to -- are there other 

22 design criteria in motor failure? 
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1 MR. LIN: I think part of the levers 

2 that we can use is based on what we talked about 

3 earlier which is what kind of technology of motor 

4 do you select to use within that application. 

5 Do you use PSC motor or do you use an ECM motor 

6 or do you use a cap start cap run in order to 

7 get there? 

8 From a -- 

9 MR. RIVEST: Would it be 

10 sufficient, I'm sorry, would it be sufficient 

11 in an air-over motor -- just for those motors 

12 -- to specify the technology of the base unit 

13 and say that the others in that base grouping 

14 have to have the same technology or better? 

15 I mean there is a hierarchy there, right? 

16 There's an understood -- it's 

17 understood that shaded poles are the worst and 

18 then ECMs are the best and then in between 

19 there's various capacitor configurations. 

20 Would that be sufficient? And I understand you 

21 can make better steel and all that. What would 

22 give the Department a reasonable assurance that 
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1 people are not designing to the certified unit? 

2 MR. LIN: This is Paul Lin again. 

3 Maybe if I can ask a question maybe to the OEMs 

4 is -- I understand what I think the ultimate 

5 goal is is trying to be able to come up with 

6 a model so you don't have to test each individual 

7 unit variation that you have in your catalog. 

8 Would it be safe to say that every 

9 motor that you have an option within your basic 

10 group or whatever you want to call that is tested 

11 in an air flow chamber? 

12 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill for 

13 Trane. Not necessarily. We have the luxury 

14 or the ability through this certification to 

15 use simulation tools, so not every single basic 

16 model combination would necessarily have to be 

17 tested and therefore tested in an air flow 

18 chamber. We can use an AEDM or what they call 

19 an alternate efficiency determination method 

20 to predict our ratings on our models. So for 

21 instance, within a particular family we may not 

22 choose to actually have a test on every single 
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1 model. We could use simulation tools. 

2 MR. LIN: And simulation tools, you 

3 would have enough validation that you've got 

4 enough air over certain parts of the unit and 

5 wouldn't have to do the actual testing? 

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 

7 MR. RIVEST: And you would have 

8 sufficient information about the properties of 

9 the motor under certain loading conditions -- 

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly. 

11 MR. RIVEST: To know the watts. 

12 And that would be something you would share with 

13 your supplier and you would say you have to build 

14 me a motor that won't consume more than this 

15 many watts under these conditions. 

16 So how do we make that a -- 

17 MS. BARHYDT: This is Laura. How 

18 does that even happen if the motor manufacturers 

19 don't know what the consumption is of the motor? 

20 MR. RIVEST: They may know the 

21 relative consumption. They wouldn't know the 

22 absolute in the sense of -- because there's no 
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1 benchmark, but they would know the number of 

2 watts under certain conditions. 

3 MR. EISNER: If they know relative, 

4 don't they always know which is the least 

5 efficient? 

6 MR. RIVEST: Yes. I'm sure they 

7 know exactly the watts. 

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from 

9 DOE. I was just going to say that if you know 

10 -- if say Company X, the HVAC company knows that 

11 they use motor Y in their base unit to certify 

12 or to create the AEDM, whatever it is, I mean 

13 if the motor manufacturer is the same supplier, 

14 wouldn't they know if they're going to move up 

15 on horsepower, if that motor was at least as 

16 -- I won't even use the word efficient because 

17 we can't measure it apparently for some motors, 

18 but was at least -- the properties were at least 

19 as good as the one that was supplied for the 

20 one that was certified to? 

21 MR. LIN: Assuming that you're 

22 using the same blower efficiency from unit A 
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1 to unit B. 

2 MR. RIVEST: Yes, I think we have 

3 to assume that. 

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: You have to assume 

5 something like that, yes. 

6 I mean like going back to the 

7 original premise here, we're just trying to get 

8 to the point where this -- the motor swap-out, 

9 we're trying to get to a point where we're okay 

10 with it, but you know we need to know that the 

11 swap-out isn't with an inferior motor with 

12 respect to its energy consumption. And so 

13 that's all we're trying to do here. I know some 

14 of these are uncovered. We don't have a test 

15 procedure, but what we wanted to ask from the 

16 manufacturers: is there some sort of a 

17 relationship that can be built to ensure that 

18 we can get to that point. 

19 MR. ERNST: This is Skip Ernst at 

20 McQuay. For many sizes, there is a relatively 

21 simple way to do it if the manufacturer for an 

22 oversized motor uses a general purpose legal 
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1 motor, then you can be quite certain you've got 

2 almost the best motor there is. You've got a 

3 good, efficient motor that's being used. That 

4 isn't going to help in the fractional horsepower 

5 sizes, but in the integral horsepower sizes it's 

6 a real simple solution. 

7 MR. DELANEY: Just one point to that 

8 and not to add to confusion, but that motor, 

9 let's say -- that's a great example, let's say 

10 you pull a 10 horsepower, for a pull motor on 

11 here and it's obviously regulated so it's an 

12 X percent efficiency that's stated on the name 

13 plate. You place that on that blower and you 

14 run it. And to your point it's oversized. 

15 Okay, so it's running at 75, 60, something less 

16 than name plate full-load efficiency, I'm sorry, 

17 full load. Well, that does affect the 

18 efficiency as well where the load it. It 

19 happens to be most induction motors are 75 to 

20 100 percent. That's usually the prime 

21 efficiencies. But motors won't run that name 

22 plate efficiency. 
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1 It's under a very, very specific 

2 criteria that that efficiency point is 

3 calculated at, so load is one of those factors 

4 that plays into that. Fan speed can also play 

5 into that factor as well, too. Very stated and 

6 very tight efficiencies where now you think 

7 you're getting the best, but maybe that blower 

8 combination with that motor whether scaling up 

9 or scaling down, I'm still having a little 

10 struggle. 

11 I'm struggling with the idea of how 

12 big of a range you could scale up and down. 

13 I don't have my head wrapped around how wide 

14 of a range we'd be doing that. But that also 

15 is a factor that plays into that efficiency as 

16 well. 

17 Do you just want to look at a name 

18 plate -- 

19 MR. ERNST: That is a major factor 

20 in this mode of operation. The reason -- I mean 

21 the customer has an application that needs more 

22 air or more static, more filtration, 
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1 economizers, things like this that they need 

2 and it's much different than the standard test 

3 mode. So the only time anybody puts on a bigger 

4 motor is if they need it. ASHRAE 90.1 already 

5 tells them they can't oversize the motor by more 

6 than a very reasonable amount that some smart 

7 people put together the rules on. And we don't 

8 give people 30 horse motors when they only need 

9 5 horsepower. They don't want it. They 

10 wouldn't pay for it. 

11 MR. RIVEST: We completely 

12 understand that and no one here is going to tell 

13 the manufacturers what horsepower to install. 

14 We just want to make sure that once they've 

15 decided to install a 30 that it's a good 30. 

16 That's all we want. 

17 MR. ERNST: Right. And again, at 

18 least in this one case which is for an awful 

19 lot of units, if the manufacturer uses the legal 

20 -- call it a premium efficiency general purpose 

21 motor, you'd be very happy. It's pretty cut 

22 and dry. 
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1 MR. RIVEST: We're there. I think 

2 we came into this meeting understanding that 

3 for integral motors, we had a good framework 

4 here. 

5 MS. BARHYDT: So to give a little 

6 bit of context to the motor manufacturers, I 

7 think DOE started this conversation several 

8 weeks ago with sort of the mindset that, oh, 

9 motors are regulated and so we can assume that 

10 motors are fairly efficient and then we started 

11 learning that there were all these different 

12 non-regulated kinds of motors going into this 

13 equipment and that's part of what changed the 

14 conversation was that what we heard from the 

15 HVAC manufacturers is that it is not all general 

16 purpose induction motors that are going into 

17 this equipment. There are a lot of direct 

18 purpose motors. There are these air-over 

19 motors. There are just a lot of different types 

20 of motors going into the equipment. 

21 And then it became an issue of well 

22 how do we compare motors? How do we have some 
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1 level of confidence that when they use one type 

2 of motor in one application when they want the 

3 higher static that they're substituting an 

4 equivalent efficiency or better motor, that the 

5 final system is performing as well as the one 

6 that was originally certified? 

7 If you're working with an HVAC 

8 manufacturer and there was some requirement for 

9 the manufacturer to swap out a motor that is 

10 at least as efficient under certain performance 

11 characteristics as the one that they certified, 

12 would you feel comfortable looking at their 

13 specs and their performance and helping them 

14 select a motor? Do you feel like you would have 

15 enough information to help advise them? 

16 Because if the answer here is that you feel like 

17 you won't be able to do that, then I think we 

18 have a fairly big problem with this approach. 

19 MR. RIVEST: Said another way, Jill 

20 needs inputs to her AEDM. Can we have those 

21 inputs and use those as a scaler? 

22 MR. LIN: I am not going to -- this 
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1 is Paul Lin from Regal. I'm not going to say 

2 that we can't. I think the issue or the concern 

3 I have is what are the parameters that we're 

4 going to be given, whether we have enough 

5 parameters to define that. 

6 I think just thinking out loud here 

7 is I think on covered equipment, I think this 

8 scaling can possibly work. My only concern is 

9 whether if we scale up to the higher horsepowers, 

10 whether you would get -- where you would -- I'm 

11 not sure of the right way of saying this is you 

12 will have more motor than you would have had 

13 without having the scaling factors. You're 

14 basically having to mandate a higher efficiency 

15 motor because of the scaling factor. 

16 The reason I say that is on higher 

17 horsepower motors, you typically from low to 

18 high horsepower on the 12, 12 tables you'll 

19 notice kind of a plateauing of efficiency level 

20 and I understand you do a percent loss in trying 

21 to keep that the same. I think my concern is 

22 that you may drive to a higher efficiency on 
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1 the motor side when we still have to do some 

2 calculations on our side to make sure that we 

3 feel comfortable. 

4 MR. RIVEST: I understand. 

5 MR. LIN: So on the integral side, 

6 I think we're comfortable, somewhat comfortable 

7 in understanding what you're proposing here. 

8 I think the biggest issue and what I was trying 

9 to have you guys do is walk through an example. 

10 I think the biggest issue is when you have a 

11 basic group that spans multiple motor 

12 technologies and how do you address that because 

13 I don't think that that -- because of the 

14 technology that you use you can scale from a 

15 half to a three. And then also with the issues 

16 relative to the air-over. 

17 Maybe on non-covered equipment, I'm 

18 just going to throw it out here to the other 

19 NEMA guys to see what they say about it is, maybe 

20 it's just a matter of what we do on a simple 

21 motor curve test, let's say on a smaller motor 

22 side, on a PSC side, whenever we provide a motor 
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1 to our OEMs, we give them a simple speed-torque 

2 curve and within that speed-torque curve is an 

3 efficiency calculated based on watts input 

4 relative to the output. So it's not like the 

5 IEEE 114(b) method with the segregated losses. 

6 So understanding that framework, we 

7 could possibly provide efficiencies on the 

8 motors based on that test, but I don't know if 

9 there's a test procedure that the DOE -- 

10 MR. RIVEST: What you're proposing, 

11 just don't call it efficiency. Call it 

12 something else and it's a scaler to us. That's 

13 all we care. 

14 MR. LIN: So I think -- maybe the 

15 best thing to do is -- here's an idea, come up 

16 with some work, some basic group definitions 

17 with some motor ratings and let's see if we can't 

18 do some calculations on our side to see if that 

19 makes sense, if it's possible. We all know what 

20 -- at least the OEMs know what models they use 

21 relative to that basic group and we scale within 

22 that, I think the hope is is that you scale to 
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1 the same motor that you utilized today. 

2 MR. RIVEST: I think that's a great 

3 idea. We came up with this scaler thing. If 

4 you guys want to come up with a scaler that is 

5 different for good reason, that's fine. 

6 MR. LIN: I think that's maybe to 

7 keep things moving along. Maybe that's our ask 

8 is that if you guys can define -- 

9 MR. RIVEST: You understand we 

10 don't define that. 

11 MR. LIN: No, I understand. 

12 MR. RIVEST: Okay. 

13 MR. LIN: But we're just looking for 

14 an example so that we can actually do some 

15 calculations with. So whatever OEM you can take 

16 it from the guys around the table and strip the 

17 names 

 off 

 if 

 you 

 want 

 so 

 that 

 -- 

 but 

 at 

 

18 what I think we need from the motor guys is what 

19 are we looking at from a scaling standpoint, 

20 half horsepower to a three horsepower within 

21 this basic group? What is the current 

22 efficiency that you think you have on the motors? 
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1 But then let us do some calculations and get 

2 back and say, yes, we can do the same type of 

3 scaling or no, we can't, but we would make these 

4 changes to your scaling. I mean that's probably 

5 the best thing we can do at the moment. 

6 MR. RIVEST: I think that's good. 

7 MS. BARHYDT: So if I understand 

8 correctly, your ask is for the HVAC 

9 manufacturers to come up with one or more 

10 scenarios, the manufacturer name stripped off 

11 of it, but just scenarios of I would use this 

12 kind of a motor as my base certified model and 

13 then these are motors I might swap out with some 

14 characteristics of those motors so that you 

15 would have enough information to play around 

16 with some scenarios? 

17 MR. LIN: Yes. 

18 MR. EISNER: And this is Neil. How 

19 long would it take the HVAC people to do that 

20 and how long would it take the motor people to 

21 develop the scales? 

22 MR. LIN: Probably longer than what 
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1 you would want us to do. 

2 (Laughter.) 

3 MR. EISNER: That's a good start. 

4 Probably correct. But can you do it in a matter 

5 of days? 

6 MR. LIN: I would feel comfortable 

7 with giving us five days, five working days. 

8 MS. BARHYDT: And I know I've heard 

9 Jill and Rusty on -- are you all willing to put 

10 together some information? 

11 MR. THARP: This is Rusty. Skip is 

12 off the line. Can you guys get something within 

13 a couple of days, to the motor guys? I think 

14 we can for -- 

15 MR. ERNST: Rusty, this is Tom and 

16 Skip. Yes, we can do that yet today. 

17 MR. JOHNSON: And just to further 

18 clarify, I think that the best working group 

19 would be to have as much wide variation and 

20 motors utilized and horsepower range fractional 

21 to integral. I think that's the best one to 

22 take a stab at it. 
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1 MR. ERNST: Yes, we're not 

2 concerned about integral to integral here. 

3 We're just considering about fractional to 

4 integral or something like that, the oddballs. 

5 MR. RIVEST: So those product -- 

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, that's what I was 

7 going to ask. So something in the scenarios 

8 of fractionals to integrals, what about 

9 fractionals to ECMs or ECMs to fractionals? 

10 I can imagine some scenarios not all of them 

11 are actual in practice right now, but I can 

12 imagine some scenarios. Do you see what I'm 

13 saying? 

14 MR. LIN: Yes, and even on the 

15 integral side, too, there's the ECM to integral 

16 side, too, right? Or the 1212 tables that was 

17 talked about? 

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, yes. 

19 MR. RIVEST: Yes, and I mean -- 

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Does it have to be an 

21 actual unit that we have in production now or 

22 can it be some theoreticals that seem logical 
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1 in the future? 

2 MR. LIN: I think that -- the reason 

3 I asked maybe something you have in production 

4 now is it would be a good baseline for you, right, 

5 to know if -- 

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Right -- 

7 MR. LIN: -- going back to today 

8 how it affects your current product line. 

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Sure, sure. 

10 MR. LIN: Whereas a theoretical, 

11 you may not be able to see that. 

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 

13 MR. EISNER: And when this is all 

14 done, would it be a good idea to have another 

15 informal meeting like this one or would we be 

16 ready to consider it during the next working 

17 group meeting? Should we aim for the end of 

18 next week to meet to have another phone call 

19 for a couple hours? 

20 MR. LIN: I think it would be good 

21 to have another phone call. 

22 MR. DELANEY: Agreed. 
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: So how are we getting 

2 this information and to who. 

3 MR. ERNST: Good question. 

4 MR. EISNER: It sounds like you guys 

5 can exchange with each other, but it would 

6 probably be a good idea to copy the DOE people 

7 on it. 

8 MR. RIVEST: We don't need to see 

9 it until it's done. 

10 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't have all the 

11 emails or whatever that we're talking about 

12 here. I need to figure out how to get to you 

13 all. I'm kind of like them. I could probably 

14 line up something within a day here, if not this 

15 afternoon, definitely tomorrow, but I just want 

16 to know who I need to send that to. 

17 MR. EISNER: Jeremiah can get 

18 around a list of all the emails. 

19 MR. BOSENBERG: They can just send 

20 it to me as well. 

21 MS. BARHYDT: Do you have Alex's 

22 email? 
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Alex? 

2 MS. BARHYDT: NEMA. 

3 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm saying that with 

4 a question mark? No. 

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: We can send an 

6 email. We know everyone who is on here and then 

7 Alex -- 

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Is that John? 

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, this is John. 

10 MS. BARHYDT: If you'll send it to 

11 Jeremiah, he'll forward it around. 

12 MR. THARP: I think it would be good 

13 idea, perhaps, this is Rusty for Goodman again, 

14 if may send a reply to all, if Jeremiah would 

15 reply to all of the working group because I know 

16 there's possibly some who are not on this 

17 particular call and if they get an email, perhaps 

18 they can get some additional information so we 

19 can ask them to also supply -- so if you can 

20 send an email with detail of what we're looking 

21 for to everybody. 

22 MS. BARHYDT: Is next Friday enough 
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1 time? 

2 MR. LIN: Can we have someone to 

3 talk to at Navigant that developed this 

4 particular spreadsheet so if we had some 

5 questions we can make that contact directly? 

6 MR. RIVEST: Yes. It's Mike 

7 Rivest. You can call me any time. 

8 MR. BOSENBERG: This is Alex. I 

9 have Mike's contact information. 

10 MS. BARHYDT: Is Friday, the 23rd 

11 enough time because our next meeting is the 

12 following Monday. 

13 MR. ERNST: I think a lot depends 

14 on how fast we get that to them, Jill. 

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Like I said, 

16 I'm pretty sure I can get it -- something anyway, 

17 tomorrow, if not this afternoon. 

18 MS. BARHYDT: So we'll tentatively 

19 plan on another call next Friday and we'll hope 

20 that we actually have something to talk about. 

21 MS. HOOTMAN: And I'm like Rusty, 

22 if we send it to everyone else on here, 
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1 hopefully, maybe Lennox or Goodman -- I mean 

2 Rheem pipe in or Carrier, I'm sure Bob would 

3 come up with something. 

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, well, thank you 

5 all for your time this afternoon. And again, 

6 if you have questions about the spreadsheet, 

7 Mike Rivest is the go-to person there. If the 

8 HVAC manufacturers will send their motor 

9 information to Jeremiah, he will make sure that 

10 that gets distributed around and we'll also plan 

11 on a meeting next Friday, the 23rd. 

12 MR. RIVEST: I don't know if -- 

13 sometimes it helps to have a little template 

14 put together so that people populate the same 

15 data fields, making sure that what the motor 

16 manufacturers need if they're getting, like -- 

17 I don't know, I mean since something needs to 

18 be put together, what information, in other 

19 words, exactly do you need from Jill? 

20 MS. HOOTMAN: That's true. It's a 

21 good point. What do you need from us, OEM HVAC 

22 manufacturers. I envision that I was going to 
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1 put something like horsepower, well, first of 

2 all, the type of motor, you know, whether it's 

3 anything from shaded pole or PSC or whatever 

4 it is, the horsepower, the name plate horsepower 

5 of the motor, how it's used in this application. 

6 So kind of how the range of that application 

7 is and in RPM and static. And then show in that 

8 basic model family what the other options are 

9 in the upper range which might go from whatever, 

10 a PSC motor fractional to an integral or 

11 something like that. I don't know. I'm just 

12 talking off the top of my head there without 

13 examples in front of me. What other information 

14 do you need? 

15 MR. LIN: I could probably put in 

16 some information that we're looking for and then 

17 that way everyone is formatting the same. I 

18 can do that this afternoon. 

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 

20 MS. BARHYDT: Thank you all for your 

21 time and we'll be in touch. 

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: We did much better 
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1 than the boiler guys this morning, so 

2 congratulate yourself. 

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Remember all the way 

4 through this, John, we're doing much better than 

5 the boiler guys. 

6 (Laughter.) 

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: One day at a time, 

8 Jill. 

9 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

10 matter went off the record at 3:21 p.m.) 

11

12

13

14

15

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19

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21

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A

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coming 34:8

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ensure 5:19 40:17

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equations 4:13

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22:6 33:13,14

36:1 37:2,2 38:2

39:21 45:22 46:1

47:5 48:14 49:6

49:11,13 50:17,22

51:6 52:14 53:2,7

53:10,20 56:2

58:15

line 20:18 22:8 27:8

51:12 53:8 54:14

lined 25:16

list 54:18

little 6:3 14:17

18:13 23:11 42:9

44:5 57:13

load 10:17,19 12:8

35:3 41:17,18

42:3

loaded 9:22

loading 38:9

Lochinvar 2:14,19

logical 52:22

long 32:9,16 50:19

50:20

longer 50:22

look 9:5 10:22

28:20 42:17

looking 18:12

45:12 49:13,19

55:20 58:16

look-up 4:17

loss 11:13 25:10,14

32:17 46:20

losses 4:10,11

24:12,13,13,14

25:4,4,6,12,20

26:15,20 30:7

31:7 32:5 48:5

lot 7:14 9:10,12

11:3 12:11 19:7

26:18 43:19 44:17

44:19 56:13

loud 46:6

low 46:17

lower 9:5,7 24:12

24:14 32:10

lowest 24:7

low-integral 19:2

luxury 37:13

L'Enfant 1:12

M

major 42:19

making 57:15

mandate 46:14

manner 11:15

manufacturer 8:7

8:21,21 27:7

35:17 39:13 40:21

43:19 45:8,9

50:10

manufacturers 7:8

13:15 14:13 17:22

20:2,7 38:18

40:16 43:13 44:6

44:15 50:9 57:8

57:16,22

Manufacturing

2:21

MARANTAN 2:16

MARCHETTI 2:4

mark 2:10 15:14

16:18 55:4

material 33:22

math 25:4,4

matter 47:20 51:4

59:10

matters 25:5

McLAUGHLIN

2:17

McQuay 2:10,14

2:17,21 15:9

40:20

mean 18:15 20:1

25:3 31:6 34:7,12
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meet 24:21 34:1

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meeting 3:6 5:1

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members 13:4

mentioned 22:19

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merely 14:1

met 1:11

method 25:11,14

26:14,16 29:18

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metric 18:19

metrics 6:22 7:3

MEYERS 2:17

MICHAEL 2:15

mid 27:14

Mike 2:5 3:13,16

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Mike's 56:9

mind 5:19 29:13,16

35:11

mindset 44:8

minimum 30:13

31:15 32:4 49:17

minimums 24:10

30:19 31:1,2,5

minus 31:7

misunderstood

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Mitsubishi 2:9

mode 42:20 43:3

model 3:10 4:5,19

4:20 7:21 8:2,8

16:2,7,9,14 17:2,5

17:5 19:14 28:9

30:1,4,16 32:14

37:6,16 38:1

50:12 58:8

models 8:9 37:20

48:20

moment 50:5

Monday 56:12

morning 59:1

motor 1:5 2:9 3:20

3:22 4:4,6,18,21

5:9,20 6:6 7:4 8:1

8:7,8,11,15,18

9:14,22 10:3,11

11:5 12:4,9 13:5

14:4,4,6,8 16:16

16:17 17:6,11,12

17:17 18:1,6

19:20,21 20:7,8

20:15,20 21:8,12

21:22 27:7 28:7,9

28:13,17,22 29:1

29:3 30:3,6,12

31:3,8,17 32:14

33:2,4,18,20,21

34:1,5,19,20,21

35:1,4,7,19,22

36:3,5,5,11 37:9

38:9,14,18,19

39:11,13,15 40:8

40:11,22 41:1,2,3

41:8,10 42:8 43:4

43:5,21 44:6 45:2

45:4,9,14 46:12

46:15 47:1,11,21

47:21,22 48:17

49:1,18 50:12,20

51:13 57:8,15

58:2,5,10

motors 3:7,10 4:1,9

5:2,10,18 6:9 7:1

7:9,13,17,20 8:12

8:15 11:21,22

13:9,16,18,21

14:3,14,20 15:3,5

15:20 16:1,13

18:5,8,16 19:15

19:18 20:5 22:22

23:3 24:1,6,21

26:1,2,10,13 27:2

29:8 31:11 32:3

33:1,9 36:11

39:17 41:19,21

43:8 44:3,9,10,12

44:16,18,19,20,22

46:17 48:8 49:22

50:13,14 51:20

move 28:2 39:14

moving 49:7

multiple 19:15

47:11

MYERS 2:18

N

name 6:13 12:13

41:12,16,21 42:17

50:10 58:4

names 49:17

national 4:5

Navigant 2:5,8,16

56:3

necessarily 8:20

32:7 34:19 37:13

37:16

necessary 10:7,20

11:9

need 3:17 12:18

19:5 28:14 30:12

40:10 43:1,4,8

49:18 54:8,12,16

57:16,19,21 58:14

needs 27:4 42:21

45:20 57:17

Neil 1:12 2:2,19

50:18

NEMA 2:3 6:2 9:8

11:8 12:2 13:4

25:15 47:19 55:2

never 19:4

new 2:4 24:14

nicely 9:19

Nidec 2:9

non-covered 47:17

non-regulated

44:12

normalization

35:12

notice 46:19

number 4:13 21:1

39:1

numbers 24:15

O

obtain 31:18

obviously 8:12 10:1

27:9 41:11

oddballs 52:4

OEM 49:15 57:21

OEMs 37:3 48:1,20

oh 44:8

okay 3:16 21:13

27:1 28:4 29:21

31:22 32:10,11

40:9 41:15 49:12

57:4 58:19

once 5:15 43:14

ones 5:22 7:20

operate 35:14

operating 14:14

21:9,10 34:20

operation 42:20

opportunity 21:4

option 37:9

options 58:8

order 21:16 34:1

36:6

original 3:14,18

40:7

originally 45:6

outdoor 14:16

outdoors 14:21

output 26:14 48:4

oversize 43:5

oversized 40:22

41:14

P

package 15:10 16:5

17:6

packaged 15:11

parameters 46:3,5

part 11:22 27:18

29:21 31:15 36:1

44:13

particular 3:8 20:8

37:21 55:17 56:4

parts 38:4

Paul 2:9,16 6:17

12:21 23:4,12

33:14 37:2 46:1

pay 43:10

people 37:1 43:7,8

50:19,20 54:6

57:14

percent 20:11,13

20:16 21:8,10

22:1 24:12,12,13

24:14,21 30:6

31:7 32:15 41:12

41:20 46:20

percentage 4:10

25:6,16,19

percentages 11:13

performance 6:21

7:22 45:10,13

performing 45:5

permanent 23:5

permanent-split

24:16

person 57:7

phase 11:3 13:9,10

13:10,11 23:21

25:13

PHILLIP 2:20

phone 53:18,21

physics 19:5 33:6

pick 11:12 12:20

picked 31:7

picking 29:17

PICKLE 2:18

pipe 57:2

place 12:19 14:13

41:13

plain 18:9

plan 56:19 57:10

plate 12:13 41:13

41:16,22 42:18

58:4

plateauing 46:19

play 42:4 50:15

plays 42:4,15
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Plaza 1:12

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point 9:2,2 11:2

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points 10:20 35:2

pole 24:7 28:11

32:14 58:3

poles 36:17

poly 25:13

polyphase 22:22

23:3,18

populate 57:14

portion 8:4

possible 31:18

48:19

possibly 46:8 48:7

55:16

potentially 7:3 18:5

power 23:3

practice 52:11

predict 37:20

premise 40:7

premium 43:20

present 2:1,6 6:3

pressure 9:16

14:17,18 15:13

17:16 30:9

pressures 3:11

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pretend 29:21

pretty 29:8 35:8

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previous 12:22

primarily 14:21

prime 41:20

principal 3:19

probably 7:17

14:18 22:18 27:15

50:4,22 51:4 54:6

54:13 58:15

problem 25:1

28:14 31:9 34:7,8

45:18

procedure 5:4,13

5:14 7:6 8:13,14

14:20 25:13 27:2

33:11 40:15 48:9

procedures 6:20

11:20

product 6:7 7:15

11:14 17:16,19

19:13,14 22:17

23:8,9,19,20

25:12,17 26:8

27:8,10,16,20,22

28:17 34:12 52:5

53:8

production 52:21

53:3

products 3:21 4:2

5:20 7:10,13

11:19 12:6 13:12

27:18 29:22

prominently 23:8

properly 10:16

properties 33:5

38:8 39:18

proposal 3:14,18

8:5 11:18 12:4

proposed 4:2

proposing 47:7

48:10

provide 27:9,11

33:17 47:22 48:7

providing 23:4

PSC 13:9 20:14

21:8,22 22:1 23:5

23:21 24:6 36:5

47:22 58:3,10

pull 9:18 41:10,10

purpose 7:18 8:1,8

9:18,22 11:7,11

11:21 12:9 13:14

31:16 32:3,7

40:22 43:20 44:16

44:18

put 33:16 43:7 51:9

57:14,18 58:1,15

puts 43:3

putting 34:11,22

PVI 2:18

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-...

3:1

p.m 1:12 3:2 59:10

Q

qualifier 33:16

qualify 28:17

quarter 22:3 24:20

question 6:6 12:2

12:22 32:2,20

34:2 37:3 54:3

55:4

questions 11:17

23:10 30:22 56:5

57:6

quite 4:17 13:17,20

27:3 41:1

R

Randy 2:12,19

34:16

range 17:2,3,4,8

20:10,12 23:14,15

23:22 42:12,14

51:20 58:6,9

ranges 22:22

rated 8:7 11:14

13:14,16 34:5

rating 5:5 8:14,19

9:5 18:2,3,8 22:5

ratings 27:2 37:20

48:17

ratio 17:11

read 21:20 24:18

ready 27:8 53:16

real 12:7 29:2 41:6

really 12:18 14:15

19:4 22:15

reason 12:7 25:7

42:20 46:16 49:5

53:2

reasonable 36:22

43:6

reasons 5:11 25:9

record 59:10

reduction 4:10

refrigeration 3:5

16:10

Regal 2:8,16 6:18

9:1 18:22 33:14

46:1

regulated 19:4 23:9

28:2,3 41:11 44:9

regulation 11:4

12:16 24:4 26:18

27:8,12,13

regulations 10:11

11:20 23:6

relationship 15:22

16:15 40:17

relative 31:21 32:9

38:21 39:3 47:16

48:4,21

relatively 40:20

relevant 23:21,22

26:17

rely 12:12 13:19

relying 14:1

remember 26:6

59:3

repeat 28:5

replaced 19:20,22

reply 55:14,15

reported 8:18

reporter 6:14

represent 14:2

22:17

representative 3:22

represents 22:20

23:3

require 30:19

required 3:11

requirement 45:8

requirements

19:17

requires 30:10

resolve 18:20

respect 40:12

rest 34:14

revised 4:7

Rheem 2:13,17

28:7 57:2

right 18:12 21:2

23:8 26:21 29:12

30:5 32:6,11 34:6

35:9,16 36:15

38:6 43:17 46:11

52:11,16 53:4,6

53:12 56:15

Rivest 2:5 3:16,17

6:19 11:16,17

13:22 15:4 16:8

17:13 19:12 20:21

21:13,18 22:3,7

24:8 26:1,3,9 27:1

28:4 29:20 31:5

32:1,8,13 34:6

35:9,16 36:9 38:7

38:11,20 39:6

40:2 43:11 44:1

45:19 47:4 48:10

49:2,9,12 50:6

52:5,19 54:8 56:6

56:7 57:7,12

road 7:4 18:11,14

Rodrigues 2:19

34:16,17 35:13

roll 11:3

ROLPH 2:19

rooftop 15:10

Room 1:11

roughly 17:10

row 22:20

RPM 58:7

rule 5:6 11:5 26:4

rulemaking 1:3

15:9

rules 43:7

run 10:3,3 22:21,21

26:8 36:6 41:14

41:21

running 16:21 20:8

41:15

rush 27:11

Rusty 2:21 7:11,19

13:7 17:9 51:9,11

51:15 55:13 56:21

S

safe 37:8

sake 29:19

sampled 9:14
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scaler 14:1 30:17

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scenarios 50:10,11

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scope 6:7,19 7:4

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SCOTT 2:9

scroll 22:8

see 22:8,9 25:1

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segregated 25:10

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segregation 26:15

select 17:22 36:4

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self 30:14

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sense 29:5 30:20

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set 10:1 22:17

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setup 10:8

shaded 24:7 28:11

32:14 36:17 58:3

shaded-pole 23:20

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share 9:3 18:22

22:13 38:12

shared 9:4

sheet 21:6,15

show 58:7

shown 4:13

side 6:4 13:13 47:1

47:2,5,22,22

48:18 52:15,16

significantly 14:19

simple 4:17,22

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48:1

simply 25:21 26:14

29:8

simulation 37:15

38:1,2

single 11:3 13:9,9

16:2,14 37:15,22

single-phase 25:11

single-phased

25:17

situation 8:6

size 19:15 33:19

sized 31:16

sizes 40:20 41:5,5

Skip 2:10 40:19

51:11,16

small 3:6 7:14 11:4

16:19 26:1,2

smaller 19:6 23:19

47:21

smallest 16:16

17:11,17 29:21

smart 43:6

solution 10:16 41:6

somebody 34:18

somewhat 47:6

sorry 6:17 20:21

22:4 28:10 32:1

36:10 41:16

sort 18:9 40:16

44:8

sounds 54:4

spans 47:11

speaking 6:14

specific 3:11 42:1

specifically 9:15

specified 17:15

specify 36:12

specs 45:13

speed 10:1 42:4

speed-torque 48:1

48:2

split 23:5,21

spoke 6:11

spreadsheet 4:16

29:14 56:4 57:6

stab 51:22

stand 33:18

standard 4:6,11,12

8:13,14 11:1,12

12:18 16:20,20

17:5 25:22 26:5

27:4 30:7,17,18

31:12,17,21 32:10

43:2

standards 1:3 10:2

10:15 26:9,13

31:19

standpoint 49:19

start 12:19 13:10

22:21,21 26:7

27:16 36:6 51:3

started 44:7,10

starting 24:18

state 6:13 28:2

stated 12:5 41:12

42:5

statement 19:9

STATES 1:1

static 3:11 14:15,17

14:18 15:7,13

17:16 30:9 42:22

45:3 58:7

steel 36:21

STEPHENS 2:20

STEVE 2:18

stock 27:19

strip 49:16

stripped 50:10

structured 22:17

struggle 23:11

42:10

struggling 42:11

subject 31:12,17

subset 26:10

substitute 28:22

substituting 45:3

substitution 3:9

sufficient 36:10,10

36:20 38:8

suggestion 29:10

super 18:2

supplied 39:19

supplier 35:18

38:13 39:13

supply 34:10 55:19

suppose 18:10

sure 3:20 6:13

17:21 20:18 24:8

28:6 29:11 39:6

43:14 46:11 47:2

53:9,9 56:16 57:2

57:9,15

SUTPHEN 2:20

swap 16:3 45:9

50:13

swapped 16:1

swapping 7:21

swap-out 40:8,11

system 16:10 45:5

T

table 4:18 20:17

22:10,19 23:2

24:22 25:3 31:3,6

31:11 32:15 34:3

49:16

tables 9:8 14:6 21:1

22:16 24:3,5,9,10

25:15 29:7 46:18

52:16

take 21:4 32:21

34:1 49:15 50:19

50:20 51:22

talk 7:8 16:12 56:3

56:20

talked 13:13 15:3

26:7 28:21 36:2

52:17

talking 3:9 6:8,20

9:6 13:5 14:16,17

14:21 15:22 16:2

29:12 32:3 54:11

58:12

technologies 2:4

25:2 47:12

technology 19:19

28:15 36:3,12,14

47:14

tell 32:21 43:12

tells 43:5

template 57:13

ten 17:18

tentatively 56:18

term 12:3

terms 4:10 13:2,17

33:22

test 5:3,12,14 6:20

7:5 8:13 9:21

10:1,2,15,21

11:20 12:8,9,14

12:18 14:20 16:20

17:5 25:11,13,22

26:15 27:2 28:7

33:11,17 37:6,22

40:14 43:2 47:21

48:8,9

tested 5:22 8:16

37:10,17,17

testing 28:19 33:18

38:5

tests 10:10

thank 57:4 58:20

Tharp 2:21 7:11,11

8:3 17:9,9 51:11

55:12

theoretical 53:10

theoreticals 52:22

thermal 10:17

thing 12:18 22:13

29:12 48:15 49:3

50:5

things 5:15 28:15

43:1 49:7

think 6:5 8:3,10

13:6,20 20:6

23:14 28:14,16,18
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51:13,18,21 53:2

53:20 55:12 56:13

thinking 46:6

thought 26:3 31:15

three 17:1 47:15

49:20

three-phase 15:15

throw 47:18

tight 42:6

time 20:1 27:4,10

27:15 43:3 56:1,7

56:11 57:5 58:21

59:7

TIMOTHY 2:7

today 5:8 26:19

27:3,18,22 49:1

51:16 53:7

Today's 27:20

Tom 2:14,21 15:8

17:4 51:15

tomorrow 54:15

56:17

ton 23:15

tonnage 13:2

tools 37:15 38:1,2

top 58:12

torque 10:9

total 15:12

touch 58:21

track 29:15

Trane 2:12 28:6

30:22 37:13

transcript 6:15

translate 6:7

translated 4:9

TRAVIS 2:11

TREATMENT 1:6

trick 16:12

true 57:20

try 6:6 9:3 12:16

trying 3:19 5:19

10:22 17:21 28:5

29:6 33:14,15

37:5 40:7,9,13

46:20 47:8

Turns 30:6

two 17:1

two-ton 15:16

type 5:11 9:12,16

23:8 24:5 25:11

25:20 26:20 28:13

31:2 45:1 50:2

58:2

types 5:9,15,18 7:9

7:20 23:9 24:1

26:19 44:19

typically 7:12 11:9

11:14 12:3 17:13

19:2 46:17

U

UL 2:11,12,15

ultimate 37:4

uncovered 40:14

understand 13:22

24:3 32:12 36:20

37:4 43:12 46:20

47:4 49:9,11 50:7

understanding

8:11 17:14 23:13

26:19 44:2 47:7

48:6

understood 5:16

25:8,10,12,15,19

26:16,21 32:2

34:7 36:16,17

unfortunately

12:11

unit 7:5 9:17 16:3,5

17:6 18:3,5 28:12

29:2 30:9,13

36:12 37:1,7 38:4

39:11,22 40:1

52:21

UNITED 1:1

units 14:18,22

15:10,11 28:7,8

28:18 43:19

universe 14:2

upper 32:10 58:9

use 3:7 4:20 5:11

7:9,12 8:7 12:9

20:2,9,22 21:5

22:14 28:12 32:19

34:3 36:2,4,5,5,6

37:15,18 38:1

39:11,16 45:1,21

47:14 48:20 50:11

uses 40:22 43:19

usually 9:15,19

41:20

utilized 49:1 51:20

V

validation 38:3

values 14:7 32:4

variable-speed

29:1

variance 8:17

variation 37:7

51:19

variety 35:8

various 36:19

W

walk 3:13 30:2,10

47:9

WALSH 2:21

want 24:8,17 28:12

28:16,22 35:18

37:10 42:17 43:9

43:14,16 45:2

49:4,17 51:1

54:15

wanted 22:13 23:12

29:11 40:15

wasn't 14:2

Water 3:4

water-cooled 15:11

watts 20:3,5 35:19

38:11,15 39:2,7

48:3

way 4:2,22 5:16,17

8:16 14:3 16:4,8

16:12,16 17:7

18:6,12 20:19

33:9 35:8 40:21

45:19 46:11 58:17

59:3

WEBINAR 2:6

WEDNESDAY 1:8

week 53:18

weeks 44:8

WEG 2:19 34:17

went 24:12 59:10

West 2:4

we'll 19:1 21:22

56:18,19 57:10

58:21

we're 3:6,8 5:19

6:7,19 13:5 14:15

14:17,21 17:21

18:12 24:20 26:4

28:5,18 29:5 32:2

40:7,9,9,13 44:1

46:3 47:6 49:13

52:1,3 54:11

55:20 58:16 59:4

we've 5:15 13:13

wide 13:12 23:14

23:22 35:8 42:13

51:19

willing 51:9

winding 9:11

word 39:16

words 19:13 35:9

57:19

work 29:7 32:16

46:8 48:16

worked 25:2,3

working 3:5 35:17

45:7 51:7,18

53:16 55:15

works 33:9

worse 18:15 28:9

worst 36:17

wouldn't 16:2

25:18 29:3,16

38:5,21 39:14

43:10

wrapped 42:13

wrong 17:14

X

X 14:5 32:22 39:10

41:12

Y

Y 39:11

Z

zero 28:1

1

1 18:4 33:2 34:10

35:7

1:5 17:11

1:6 17:11

10 14:5 30:10,11

41:10

100 23:15 41:20

11 20:17

114(b) 48:5

12 20:17,17,17

46:18,18

1211 13:19 24:11

1212 13:19 24:11

52:16

14 1:8

2

2 4:19 18:4

2:00 1:12

2:14 3:2

20 24:12,12 31:7

32:15

2013 1:8 27:15

2015 11:4 27:13

23rd 56:10 57:11

3

3 13:10,11 17:20

18:4 20:10,12,14

20:17 21:2,5,6,12

21:16 29:17,21

30:2 34:21 35:7

3-phase 16:3

3:21 59:10

30 17:7 43:8,15,15

4
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 68

4 18:4

42 13:9

48 7:12 9:4,6 11:2

13:9,9

5

5 4:20 14:4 17:6

18:2,4 20:9,10,15

21:5,6,10,19 33:4

34:10,22 35:7

43:9

50 24:13,14

55,000 7:15

56 7:13,22 9:4,6

11:2 13:10

6

6 15:12 30:6

60 41:15

60-ton 15:10

6075 1:12

64 21:1

65 20:16 21:8 22:1

22:8,9

65,000 16:4

66.5 21:19

7

7.5 17:6

71 24:21

75 41:15,19

8

8 22:8,20

80 20:11,13 21:10

88.9 30:5

9

90.1 43:4

93.1 4:19

950 1:12

96.2 4:21
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

69

Discussion of High Efficiency Motor

Treatment Commercial HVAC Equipment

US DOE

08-14-13

Washington, DC