### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 1 -----------------------------x PUBLIC MEETING FOR THE POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS (PCBs): REASSESSMENT OF USE AUTHORIZATIONS ADVANCED NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING

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DATE: Tuesday, May 4, 2010 TIME: 1:00 p.m.

Taken at US EPA REGION 2, 290 BROADWAY, 27th Floor, Room 2735 (Conference Room A), by Elizabeth Willeski, RPR, of Capital Reporting Company, a Notary Public in and of the State of New York.

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 QUANTECH, INC. DAEMIAN SCHREIBER 3 2020 14th Street W, Suite 560 Arlington, Virginia 22201 4 (703)312-7831 5 SPEAKERS: 6 Dan Craft, Acting Chief, Pesticides and Toxic 7 Substances Branch Division of Enforcement and 8 Compliance Assistance U.S. EPA Region 2 9 10 Tom Simons, Environmental Protection Specialist, 11 Fibers and Organics Branch National Program 12 Chemicals Division Office of Chemical Safety and 13 Pollution Prevention, U.S. EPA 14 15 Jim Roewer, Executive Director, USWAG 16 17 Mary Davis, Principal Environmental Specialist, 18 American Electric Power 19 20 Aurelia Greene, Deputy Bronx Borough President 21 22 Jonathan Davis, NYS Assembly, Linda Rosenthal 23 24 Valerie Watnick, Associate Professor, Baruch College/City 25 University of New York, Zicklin School of Business

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S - continued: 2 3 Miranda Massey, New York Lawyers for the Public Interest 4 5 Patricia Donegan, Parent 6 7 Ann Casey, PCB Chemist, Northeast Analytical, Inc. 8 9 George Weymouth, Retired Waterproofer 10 11 Gigi Gazon, New York City PCB Free Schools Coalition 12 13 Daniel Lefkowitz, Private Citizen 14 15 Richard Barr, Chair of External Affairs Committee 16 for Occupational Safety & Health 17 18 Maureen LaMar, New York Committee for Occupational 19 Safety & Health 20 21 Mark Drozdov, Past President American Industrial 22 Hygiene Association 23 24 Charles Kellogg, Chairman/CFO Hubbard Hall 25 * * * * *

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 4 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 MR. CRAFT: My name is Dan Craft. I'm the 3 Acting Chief of the Pesticides and Toxic Substance 4 Branch Division of Enforcement and Compliance 5 Assistance, US EPA Region 2. I'm joined this afternoon 6 by Maria Doa, who is the director of the National 7 Program Chemicals Division, and Tom Simons, who is the 8 Environmental Protection Specialist, Fibers and 9 Organics Branch in the EPA's Office of Chemical Safety 10 and Pollution Prevention. Welcome to our first of four 11 public meetings to gather comments on the issue of 12 EPA's reassessment of its current authorizations for 13 PCB use and distribution in commerce. We are planning 14 a -- we're considering a fifth meeting on the west 15 coast later on in the year. EPA had issued an Advanced 16 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on April 7th, 2010, 17 initiating the agency's potential reassessment of PCB 18 use authorizations. We would like to thank you for 19 joining us today, and we very much appreciate you 20 taking the time this afternoon to assist us by 21 providing valuable on the state of the environment 22 regarding PCBs in use. 23 Now, it has been 30 years since their limited 24 uses were authorized. The purpose of this meeting is 25 to provide an opportunity for the public to present

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 5 1 comments, information, and data regarding the Advanced 2 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. EPA representatives 3 will be available to answer clarifying questions on the 4 comments of the April 7th Federal Register notice. In 5 addition to the comments received at today's meeting 6 and the remaining public meetings, EPA will also be 7 providing or accepting written public comments through 8 July 6th, 2010. You may provide those comments via 9 Docket Number EPA-HQ-OPPT-2009- 0757. Don't worry, we 10 have a handout that provides all these links for you, 11 and through regulations.gov or you may mail or hand 12 deliver them to EPA headquarters in Washington at the 13 address as listed in the April 7th Federal Register. We 14 encourage you to submit written comments in addition 15 Today's meeting will run no later than 6 p.m., 16 beginning with a background presentation on the 17 Advanced Notice of Proposed Rulemaking and then 18 proceeding to the public presentations. We will have 19 one ten-minute break at around 3:00. There are public 20 restrooms in the hall outside the meeting room here. We 21 ask that each of the presentations be limited to around 22 ten minutes so that we'll have ample time for all to 23 provide comments. Today's spoken comments will go into 24 the publicly available docket and be available for 25 public viewing at regulations.gov.

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 6 1 Again, thank you for coming today. Let me 2 now turn things over to Tom Simons, who will give you 3 some background on the Advanced Notice of Proposed 4 Rulemaking. 5 MR. SIMONS: Thanks, Dan. Welcome all. I'm 6 Tom Simons. I'm going to give you a quick rundown of 7 what the intent of this meeting is and a little 8 background of the PCB program. I think one of the key 9 things that I want to point out here is this word 10 Proposed Rulemaking. Nothing in this rule has been 11 decided for what we proposed. This is to get data, 12 information, and comments from the public on where the 13 agency should go. We're going to talk a little bit 14 about what PCBs are, what they were used for, health 15 effects, what is the authority under the Toxic 16 Substances Control Act for this rulemaking, what the 17 standard is for removing a use authorization -- that 18 means not allowing documented use of PCBs -- let's just 19 say transformers for simplicity sake here -- what the 20 objectives of the rulemaking are, what kind of 21 information we are looking for and what the timetable 22 is. 23 PCBs are a group of 209 different compounds 24 called congeners. About 50 of these were used 25 commercially in dielectric fluids and in carbonless

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 7 1 copy paper. And we'll see a slide that shows some of 2 the uses that are currently out there. Back from 1929 3 until 1977, about 1.4, 1.5 billion pounds of PCBs were 4 produced, and before our regulations on disposal and 5 other things half of that material was released into 6 the environment. Now, PCBs have some great properties, 7 elasticity, heat resistance, low electrical 8 conductivity, so it was used in a myriad of different 9 applications. There are some, I would say those first 10 three, dielectric fluid, hydraulics, and heat transfer 11 probably were the bulk of the fluids used as a 12 dielectric in these pieces of electrical equipment. It 13 got down to the cutting oils, lubricants, rubber, 14 paints and coatings, caulks, pasteurizes, inks and 15 pigments, and you'll see the asterisk there. Since we 16 weren't informed to a great extent, back in the late 17 '70s, that these uses existed, they didn't get 18 authorized. Someone came forward and said it's in 19 carbonless copy paper. That may sound odd to you all 20 that that's in there. They didn't get authorized. 21 Quickly, health effects, acute, short-term 22 effects, irritation and burning of the eyes and face, 23 and chloracne, it's a skin irritation. And the chronic 24 and reproductive effects, developmental effects, and is 25 probably a human carcinogen and in studies it has shown

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 8 1 cancer in some animals. The authority is under Section 2 6E of TOSCA. PCBs were the only chemical specifically 3 written into the act for the agency to regulate. It 4 generally bans the manufacturing process, distribution 5 in commerce, and use of PCBs with exceptions. And they 6 will have to find no unreasonable risk to an exception 7 for continued use. Most of these exceptions are, let's 8 use transformers again, quarterly inspections, use 9 restrictions, repair restrictions, constraint limits, 10 location restrictions, etc. As I said, specifically in 11 Section 6E, 2B, that allows the EPA to authorize, by 12 rule, continued use and distribution in commerce of 13 PCBs in an enclosed manner, provided these present no 14 unreasonable risk. And EPA, in '84, made the 15 determination that certain non-totally enclosed PCB use 16 activities would not present an unreasonable risk and 17 proposed continued use we said we would reassess those 18 authorizations. And you know the government doesn't 19 work that quickly, so it took us some time to get to 20 the point where we are now doing something. So we are 21 in fact doing something. 22 So the standards for removing a use 23 authorization -- that means something that is currently 24 allowed -- would no longer be allowed, that EPA must be 25 less than arbitrary and capricious. The burden to

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 9 1 remove a use authorization is much less than a finding 2 of unreasonable risk burden to establish a use 3 authorization, and that was -- you'll see the citation 4 there at the bottom, the Fifth Circuit decision, back 5 in August of 2000. The objective: To assess these 6 current use authorizations to determine whether they 7 may now pose an unreasonable risk on human health and 8 the environment. And this rulemaking solicits comments 9 from you, other folks in the public on several -- it's 10 actually quite a few, if you look at the Federal 11 Register, you'll see subquestions on various topics. 12 These were some of them: Population, 13 characteristics for equipment, number of transformers 14 out there, capacitors, small capacitors, heat transfer 15 systems, how is this equipment being managed, is the 16 stuff that is being stored for reuse out in the back, 17 40 uncovered and leaking. What is the rate of 18 equipment failure, insurance cost. Some of these units 19 now are 40, 50 years old. What would it cost to remove 20 and replace a transformer that you have. I'm just 21 using transformer for example for purposes of this 22 conversation. What is the impact of a spill, a fire 23 for that matter. Weather events, you know, lightening 24 strikes, guys out having fun with their 22s, shooting 25 transformers. Disposal of metal recycling capacitors

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 10 1 and costs. What is the cost of - - they want to know 2 the impacts of substitutes for PCBs, and also 3 considering some authorizations for some non-liquid 4 PCBs. 5 As Dan pointed out, the comment period 6 comments submitted at that website, use that docket 7 number, and our job will be to start looking through 8 these and formulating what would be a proposed rule. 9 I'm going to guess, sometime in 2011. Don't hold me to 10 that. 11 MR. SCHREIBER: Thanks, now we will have the 12 period for public comment. Our first speaker is Jim 13 Roewer, Executive Director of USWAG. 14 MR. ROEWER: My name is Jim Roewer. I'm the 15 Executive Director of the Utilities Solid Waste 16 Activities Group, which is a trade association of about 17 100 electrical utilities, electric generating expenses 18 and trade associations involved in the generation, 19 transmission and distribution of electricity. Over the 20 past 30 years, we have engaged with the EPA as the 21 agency has developed and implemented and enforced PCB 22 regulations as they relate to electric and gas and 23 operations, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak 24 with you today. 25 First, I want to reiterate our request which

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 11 1 we formally submitted last month, while we are still 2 determining the most efficient strategy for gathering 3 information requested by EPA. It is very clear that a 4 thoughtful and thorough response to the hundreds of 5 questions that the agency poses in this Advanced Notice 6 will require significantly more than the 90 days they 7 have allotted. 8 Second, while we appreciate the need to 9 revisit the TOSCA PCB use authorizations or regulations 10 30 years after their promulgation, the phaseout 11 contemplated in the proposed rule is neither practical 12 nor necessary. Let me first explain why we believe a 13 mandatory phaseout is not necessary. In short, we have 14 already made great progress in an aggressive and 15 voluntary phaseout effort marked by the removal of a 16 large percentage of all PCB containing equipment. 17 Speeding up the time line for identifying and removing 18 the remaining, very hard to find equipment, will come 19 at a huge cost and will hamper our cost-effective power 20 to the public. Given the progress that we have made 21 through voluntary programs, coupled with the constant 22 dwindling of the PCB equipment inventory through 23 natural attrition, the economic havoc that would result 24 from a mandatory phaseout is simply not justified by 25 any pressing need. We are already making determined

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 12 1 efforts to reach EPA's ultimate goal of a phaseout of 2 this equipment through a reasonable and practical 3 approach that will not compromise our commitments to 4 our customers and the public at large. 5 I want to remind EPA of what we've already 6 accomplished. For years, we have been a leader in this 7 effort promoting a voluntary accelerated phaseout of 8 PCB containing equipment, far beyond what is required 9 by the regulations. The result of this effort has been 10 significant, and inventories of PCB containing 11 equipment are rapidly decreasing. I have attached to 12 my testimony a member company reduction efforts update, 13 which we had provided EPA earlier as Strategy, which 14 illustrates the efforts that utilities across the 15 country have made to voluntarily reduce their PCB 16 inventories. Some USWAG member companies have voluntary 17 removed certain large categories of known PCB 18 transformers from their systems far ahead of their 19 equipment's normal retirement age. Many USWAG members 20 have made sure they implemented procedures to ensure 21 that most PCB contaminated distribution transformers, 22 when they come in from the field, are either disposed 23 of or retro filled with non PCB oil before being 24 returned to service. The bottom line is that this 25 successful voluntary effort is continuing to remove

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 13 1 PCBs from service. Given the success of these ongoing 2 programs, the requirement that the utilities eliminate 3 all PCB containing equipment from their inventories by 4 an arbitrary deadline might result in, at best, 5 incremental gains in the rate at which this equipment 6 is already being removed from service through the 7 voluntary phaseout, coupled with natural attrition. And 8 while the utilities will need to employ to comply with 9 what is ultimately an unachievable objective would come 10 at a steep cost, not only to the utility industry, but 11 to the public we serve. I also want to emphasize that, 12 while our voluntary phaseout efforts are impressive, 13 the fact that companies are engaging in some voluntary 14 programs with remarkable success cannot be interpreted 15 to mean that across the board identification removal 16 from service and replacement of all PCB containing 17 equipment by a hard-and-fast deadline will be 18 achievable. That simply is not the case. That leads 19 to my second and perhaps most important point, the type 20 of phaseout being contemplated is not only unnecessary, 21 it's really not practically achievable. To ensure 22 compliance with a mandatory phaseout, utilities would 23 have to visually inspect or test, visually, all the 24 equipment within their service territories. This will 25 require service interruptions and will jeopardize both

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 14 1 the integrity of fully intact functional equipment, as 2 well as the mandated phaseout will require the 3 expenditure of billions of dollars, which will lead to 4 costs for all electric consumers and will also have a 5 ripple effect on the supply and demand of replacement 6 electrical equipment and potentially lead to service 7 disruptions or shortages. In understanding of these 8 points, it is critical to recognize the significant 9 physical and operational differences among utility 10 generator transmitters and distribution companies. The 11 electric equipment inventory is spread very widely from 12 one utility to another in terms of size, depth, 13 function, and configuration. Some of our association 14 member companies are very small in scale and have very 15 limited resources. For example, 50 of National Rule 16 Electrical Cooperative Association, one of the USWAG 17 members cooperatives, have fewer than 25 employees. 18 Other companies face resource challenges posed by 19 systems that span hundreds of thousands of square 20 miles. In addition, utilities are contained by the and 21 the common need to provide a reliable and affordable 22 service to the rate paying public. What is achievable 23 for one company cannot be measured by the 24 accomplishments of a differently situated company. In 25 addition to the unique limitations and challenges each

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 15 1 utility faces, all utilities are now faced with a 2 common hurdle, which now complicates any phaseout 3 effort. As the remaining inventory of PCB containing 4 equipment continues to shrink, still unknown PCB 5 containing pieces of equipment become harder to find. 6 Literally, they are a needle in a haystack. What's 7 more is the difficulty of identifying the ever 8 shrinking universe of PCB containing equipment 9 increases dramatically, so does the per unit cost of 10 doing so. In considering the impracticability of a 11 phaseout requirement, it is important to remember that 12 when the agency originally promulgated the use 13 authorizations for PCB, that Tom referred to earlier, 14 for electrical equipment, it did so only after it made 15 a determination that the risk to human health and the 16 environment. Over the past three decades, this risk 17 must have decreased because the number of PCB 18 containing items in electrical equipment have 19 drastically reduced through our voluntary efforts. The 20 challenges associated with a mandatory phaseout cannot 21 be overstated. There are literally millions of pieces 22 of dielectric fluid filled electrical equipment at 23 service along millions of miles of transmission and 24 distribution networks, where there is not any certain 25 way, except for testing or physical inspection of,

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 16 1 visually, each and every piece of equipment to ensure 2 that all of the remaining PCB containing equipment is 3 identified. To engage in such a massive undertaking 4 and testing program will come at a very steep cost that 5 will, of course, be passed on, at least in part, to 6 electric consumers. 7 Nearly 30 years ago, when EPA promulgated the 8 use authorizations, we estimated the cost associated 9 with equipment of $6.4 billion. We're going to be 10 updating those numbers, but, today, the per unit costs 11 that I referred to are unquestionably higher, and as we 12 start looking for the needle in the haystack, that $6 13 billion number is going to be significantly higher in 14 2010. When Canada proposed a phaseout of PCB 15 containing electrical equipment, we estimated the cost 16 of complying with that program down here in the United 17 States, and we had some member companies, some 18 utilities, that considered the cost implication 19 identify with certainty the type and location of PCB 20 containing equipment. A large utility estimated the 21 cost at approximately $270 million. A smaller utility 22 estimated the cost at about $10 million. These 23 estimates don't include other collateral costs, such as 24 service disruptions, increased risk of spills from the 25 analysis of otherwise perfectly intact nonleaking

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 17 1 equipment and the premature retirement of valuable 2 equipment. For both the large and the small company, 3 the largest identification of all PCB containing 4 equipment in their systems that were created by a de 5 facto requirement to test each and every piece of 6 equipment. Other members of USWAG agree with that, that 7 that is the most difficult part of undertaking a 8 Canadian-like PCB phaseout. 9 While we plan to develop updated cost data 10 for EPA, it is certain that the cost for the electric 11 utility industry would amount to many billions of 12 dollars. There is one final point I would like to 13 address. In speaking to the Canadian proposal, the 14 agency does refer to that in its Advanced Notice, 15 suggesting that a mandated phaseout is appropriate here 16 in the US because it is being undertaken in other 17 countries. It is very important to consider the 18 difficulties the Canadians are faced attempting to 19 phaseout PCB equipment with the deadlines that were 20 established by the Environmental Canada Regulation. The 21 Canadian Electric Association stated that large scale 22 testing required in order to achieve compliance with 23 regulations would require prolonged unplanned outages 24 and would be impossible for the electric sector to 25 schedule without placing the reliability of the power

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 18 1 system at significant risk. The Canadian utilities 2 also raised the exact point that we are making here 3 today. It is simply impractical to engage in such a 4 large scale testing program to determine the PCB 5 content of equipment in which the PCB content is 6 unknown. 7 In closing, I would like to reiterate that 8 USWAG shares EPA's goal of removing PCB containing 9 equipment from service, as shown by our continued 10 promotion of voluntary phasedown programs within our 11 membership. At the same time, we have to caution that a 12 mandatory phaseout is both unnecessary, given the 13 continuing success of these voluntary programs, and 14 wholly unwarranted in terms of cost and risk. And on 15 behalf of USWAG, I thank you for the opportunity. 16 MR. SCHREIBER: Ms. Davis. 17 MS. DAVIS: Good afternoon. My name is Mary 18 Davis and I am the Principle Environmental Specialist at 19 American Electric Poswer in Shreveport, Louisiana. And 20 boy does the weather remind me of home. Yesterday more, 21 hot and humid. 22 During the course of my 31-year career with 23 AEP, I have served as an internal PCB auditor for the 24 company and currently am the senior professional 25 responsible for PCB compliance, not just operational

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 19 1 guidance within AEP. Since 2001, I have served as the 2 chair of the PCB committee for USWAG and still 3 currently hold that position. You heard from Jim that 4 USWAG is a trade association of power generation, 5 transmission, and distribution companies. The USWAG PCB 6 committee has interacted closely with the EPA for the 7 last 30 years regarding all the aspects of the PCB 8 regulations as they relate to electric and gas company 9 operations. 10 Over the past three decades, I have come to 11 know many of the dedicated EPA professionals who work 12 diligently to administer the day-to-day aspects of the 13 PCB Committee, my testimony is on behalf of my company, 14 AEP. Given my limited time and the broad scope and 15 magnitude of the Advanced 16 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, I'm going to 17 limit my testimony to three critical issues: The need 18 to extend the comment period to provide adequate time 19 for a thoughtful response from the regulated guarantee; 20 the problematic assumption that utilities already or 21 can easily identify all PCB regulated equipment within 22 their systems; and the misconception that equipment is 23 more likely to release PCBs as it ages. AEP would like 24 to respectfully state that we need more time. The 25 ANPRM raises an overwhelming number of complex issues

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 20 1 and asks over 200 questions on a wide array of PCB 2 inventory management and related matters. AEP staff 3 must work this voluminous data response into our 4 already full-time responsibilities, and it is simply 5 not practical to effectively and thoroughly respond to 6 such an intention and varied array of issues in such a 7 short period of rulemaking initiative, it is critical 8 that EPA give everyone potentially affected enough time 9 to gather and provide the agency with accurate 10 information. Too much is at stake in this rulemaking, 11 so an extension of the comment period is currently 12 warranted and needed. 13 Secondly, identification of all PCB regulated 14 equipment is very, very problematic for electric 15 utilities. The notice assumes that measures like 16 mandatory phaseout or marking of all known or assumed 17 PCB articles should not be that burdensome, because 18 companies should be able to readily identify all of the 19 PCB regulated equipment in their systems, however, it 20 will be burdensome, and that is not true. The existing 21 PCB regulations have never required owners to identify 22 PCB regulated equipment, precisely because the agency 23 recognized it would be too difficult and cost too much. 24 EPA now believes that owners should have already 25 implemented a plan to locate any regulated equipment

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 21 1 through the use of bar positioning systems or by other 2 means. Over the last 30 years, since the PCB 3 regulations were implemented, AEP has made significant 4 strides in reducing the number of PCB related articles 5 in our system, including identifying regulated articles 6 and removing the most accessible equipment. However, 7 AEP cannot state at this time where every piece of PCB 8 regulated equipment in our system is located. 9 AEP does take PCB equipment phaseout 10 seriously. AEP has been working on a voluntary and 11 proactive basis to identify PCB regulated equipment and 12 remove it from service. In fact, we received multiple 13 awards this year and another in 2008 from EPA National 14 Partnership For Environment Priorities for voluntarily 15 removing a combined total of over 96,000 pounds of PCBs 16 from service at two AEP coal fired power plants, the 17 Amens plant in St. Albans, West Virginia, and 18 Transatlantic River Plant in Cleveland, Virginia, 19 through the early retirement of PCB transformer 20 rectifier sets proud of these efforts, we believe that 21 it is important for EPA to understand that the early 22 removal of just these 62 discreet pieces of equipment 23 costs approximately $2.6 million and took over a year 24 of planning and execution to ensure against 25 compromising our obligation to provide reliable

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 22 1 electric service for the thousands of customers who 2 rely on these facilities for power. 3 In order to sample all pieces of electrical 4 equipment throughout AEP's 197,000 plus miles of 5 service territory to identify items in fact contain 6 regulated levels of PCB would again be burdensome, 7 expensive, and an unnecessary undertaking, which would 8 pose safety, physical, logistics and reliability 9 hurdles. AEP knows where certain regulated pieces of 10 mechanical equipment are located, such as the PCB 11 transformers we mentioned earlier and large PCB 12 capacitors that are still in service. However, this is 13 not the case for remaining assumed PCB contaminated 14 transformers, such as pole top and Padmount 15 transformers, and in service in AEP's large electrical 16 distribution system. 17 As EPA correctly reasoned, in 1979, when it 18 accomplished the PCB assumption rules for electrical 19 equipment, it simply was not practical or even readily 20 feasible to determine the PCB content in the tens of 21 millions of pieces of equipment in service across the 22 United States. Such an undertaking would have come at 23 a massive cost, estimated by USWAG at the time to be 24 over $6 billion, which was in 1982. The same 25 challenges that EPA recognized in identifying every

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 23 1 piece of PCB regulated electrical equipment nearly 2 three decades ago remains today. But today, it will be 3 even more difficult and more expensive, as you heard 4 Jim Roewer so aptly explain. This is because the total 5 number of electrical equipment items in service has 6 grown dramatically as the AEP system has expanded, 7 while the number of PCB containing systems units has 8 dwindled due to the ban on PCB production and the 9 subsequent change out of efforts. 10 Now, the percentage of equipment that 11 contains PCBs is far less than in 1982. In our 12 opinion, that declining percentage makes it an even 13 more inefficient use of resources to search out PCB 14 regulated equipment before the end of its useful life. 15 Thirty years ago, EPA agreed that such a search would 16 not be necessary and the case for not implementing a 17 search is even stronger today. In addition to cost 18 concerns, the practical and operational challenges of 19 identification are problematic. As a practical matter, 20 determining what equipment definitely contains PCBs 21 would require AEP to almost visually examine every one 22 of the millions of pieces of items of equipment in our 23 system, and, in many cases, to sample the dielectric 24 material in the equipment. We believe that such an 25 effort would show that only a very small percentage of

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 24 1 equipment in service today contains regulated levels of 2 PCBs. To undertake this massive effort will require 3 hundreds of in sampling, disposal, replacement costs, 4 and outages that would directly impair our obligations 5 to provide continued reliable power to AEP's over 5.2 6 million customers. 7 AEP also has safety concerns about sampling 8 energized equipment. We would like to point out that 9 the act of sampling can destroy some equipment, as is 10 the case with bushings and light valves, or compromise 11 its integrity, as would be the case with in service 12 energized distribution transformers. To sample fluid in 13 energized distribution pole top transformers, we would 14 have to use a power-activated AMPACT cartridge gun to 15 puncture an otherwise intact perfectly functioning 16 piece of equipment to obtain a sample of the dielectric 17 fluid. Any time you puncture a piece of equipment, you 18 greatly increase the odds of premature failure and also 19 increase the odds for releases that would not have 20 otherwise occurred. In Padmount transformers, all of 21 them must be de- energized in order to be sampled. Even 22 assuming that it is possible way, every piece of PCB 23 regulated equipment, the risk to our employees and 24 service interruptions would far outweigh any potential 25 environmental health benefit. To the point that the

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 25 1 universe of PCB regulated equipment is declining in 2 2008, the AEP operating subsidiaries disposed or 3 recycled 31,149 distribution transformers and less than 4 half of 1% contained greater than or equal to 500 parts 5 per million PCBs. Also, in 2008, we disposed of 3,356 6 large capacitors, and only .2% were contained, again, 7 greater than or equal to 500 parts per million PCBs. 8 AEP believes that the risk of releases from PCB 9 regulated equipment is far, far less today than it was 10 in 1982, and we believe that it makes no sense to incur 11 enormous cost to track down the needle in the haystack, 12 the small percentage of remaining PCB regulated 13 equipment, when the overall risk of PCB release from 14 this equipment is much less than the risks were in 15 1982. Even then, EPA determined there was no 16 unreasonable risk to universe of PCB regulated 17 equipment. If it did not make economic or practical 18 sense to require utilities to identify a much larger 19 universe in 1982, then why now? 20 And, lastly, there is not a correlation 21 between the failure of electrical equipment due to age 22 and a release of PCBs. Based on AEP data, there is no 23 basis to say that equipment is more likely to cause a 24 spill, let alone a release of PCBs simply because it is 25 ageing. Oftentimes, equipment failure does not mean

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 26 1 you had a spill, and it's simply replaced with a no PCB 2 piece of equipment. In addition to AEP's voluntary and 3 proactive efforts, this natural attrition is 4 contributing to the ultimate phaseout of PCB related 5 regulated equipment. The integrity of vintage equipment 6 would be compromised by any sampling done to satisfy 7 the suggested identification requirements. Those 8 measures would greatly increase the risk of spills 9 resulting from the destructive sampling required to 10 take analysis of the sampling fluid from an piece of 11 equipment. 12 On behalf of American Electric Power, I thank 13 you again for the opportunity to participate in this 14 process and to present some of our views on this 15 important rulemaking effort. 16 MR. SCHREIBER: Thank you. Our next speaker 17 is Aurelia Greene, on behalf of the Deputy Bronx 18 Borough President. 19 MS. GREENE: Good afternoon, distinguished 20 members of this panel. I'm here this afternoon to 21 provide testimony from Borough President, Ruben Diaz, 22 Jr. of the Bronx. We want to thank you for the 23 opportunity to address you today on this very important 24 issue, the protection of our most precious resource, 25 our children, from the dangers of PCB contamination in

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 27 1 our schools. As I'm sure you're aware, last June, my 2 partner in government, Borough President, Ruben Diaz, 3 Jr. wrote a letter to Administrator Jackson describing 4 the discovery of widespread PCB contamination in New 5 York City school buildings. In his get the EPA to 6 formulate a comprehensive program to identify and 7 remove the PCBs in our schools as required by the Toxic 8 Substance Control Act. Since last June, the agency has 9 taken certain steps to begin to address this problem, 10 including, among other things, entering into a 11 settlement agreement with the City of New York, which 12 will require the city to study and formulate a citywide 13 PCB management plan for city public schools. These 14 actions taken by the agency indicated to me that it was 15 willing to acknowledge the seriousness of the problem, 16 make an effort to determine the scope of the problem 17 and attempt to craft a reasonable solution. However, 18 the Advanced Notice of Proposed Rulemaking published by 19 the EPA in the Federal Register on April 7th, 2010 20 totally calls into question whether the EPA for 21 considerations of and convenience and money just wants 22 to sweep this problem under the regulatory rug. 23 First, the borough president and I are 24 outraged that this agency has solicited the 50 parts 25 per million standard for PCBs in windows and door

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 28 1 caulking, without any apparent scientific 2 justification, and, in your own words, for the purpose 3 of relieving the "undue financial burdens" of 4 remediating PCBs in public buildings and school 5 buildings in light of the fact that the agency will be 6 conducting research on the issue of PCB contaminated 7 caulk in schools and is working with the New York City 8 public school system on formulating a model management 9 plan. The implication of this request for comment is 10 obvious for all to see that this agency is seeking a 11 justification to increase the PPM limit for PCBs in 12 order to relieve school systems to the financial burden 13 of removing PCB contamination in the schools. Without 14 the benefit of any of their own research, the EPA 15 appears to have predetermined that avoiding the cost of 16 PCB removal is worth more than the health of our 17 children and school employees. 18 Second, while we applaud the agency for 19 concentrations of PCBs in schools and methods of 20 mitigation, these studies lack a crucial element, the 21 quantification of PCB levels in the tissues of and 22 blood of school children and employees that should form 23 the basis for any change in the regulation of PCBs in 24 schools, without creating a nationwide database on the 25 levels of PCBs present in the bodies of school children

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 29 1 and employees in PCB contaminated school facilities. 2 There is no rational basis for amending the PCB 3 regulations. In buildings with PCB contaminated caulk, 4 determining transient air levels of PCBs and then 5 projecting human exposure levels is a complicated and 6 grossly inaccurate art at best and can never quantify 7 the actual levels of PCB contamination a child may 8 suffer from, regardless of whether the contamination 9 originated from school facilities and/or off-sight 10 sources. There is no reason the EPA should not be 11 working with the CDC and other appropriate agencies to 12 create such a database and establish contamination just 13 as children are tested for led contamination. 14 Finally, the EPA published the Advanced 15 Notice with no outreach to any stakeholders and other 16 concerned parties and has not scheduled a sufficient 17 number of hearings on the topic. The issue of PCB 18 contamination of schools is one of the growing concerns 19 of parents all over this country, yet the only notice 20 given on these important hearings was printed in a 21 publication no one reads. 22 Moreover, the scheduling of only four public 23 meetings to deal with the numerous issues addressed in 24 the Advanced Notice all within 24 days is totally 25 inadequate for stakeholders to adequately prepare

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 30 1 thoughtful comments for the EPA. The lack of a public 2 hearing in California or Texas is incomprehensible. 3 Public hearings should be held in at least 4 the ten cities with the largest school populations. 5 The overriding sense created by the short notice, the 6 inadequate notice of public hearings, and the short 7 time frame for hearings shows that has to say on PCB 8 contamination or public schools or any other issue 9 identified in the Advanced Notice. We respectfully, 10 yet strongly, urge the EPA to take the following 11 actions: Number one, amend the Advanced Notice to 12 remove the request for comment on amending the 50 PPM 13 standards for PCB contaminated substances and all 14 questions related there to. Two, amend the public 15 meeting schedule to provide for a series of public 16 meetings on each issue identified in the Advanced 17 Notice. 18 With respect to PCB contamination of public 19 schools, we recommend the agency to schedule public 20 hearings in at least the 10 cities with the highest 21 school populations over a period of 12 months and (3) 22 work with other federal agencies in creating a national 23 database on PCB levels in school children and employees 24 in buildings known to be contaminated with PCBs to 25 better understand the scope of the problem while

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 31 1 working to institutionalize PCB testing for children in 2 public schools. 3 We understand that construction-related PCB 4 contamination is a nationwide problem which extends 5 beyond school buildings and will require significant 6 resources to address for decades to come. 7 However, an attempt to regulate the problem 8 away is a terrible solution which will continue to 9 expose our children to a serious threat of unknown 10 proportions. 11 This method of dealing with the problem is 12 something we would have expected from the previous 13 federal administration. The Obama Administration is 14 better than this. We are better than this. 15 Thank you for your time and for your 16 consideration. 17 [Applause.] 18 MR. SCHREIBER: Thank you. Our next speaker 19 is Jonathan Davis, representing Linda Rosenthal of the 20 New York State Assembly. 21 MR. DAVIS: Thank you. My name is Jonathan 22 Davis, representing New York State Assembly Member 23 Linda Rosenthal, who represents the Upper West Side and 24 portions of Hells Kitchen Clinton Neighborhoods of 25 Manhattan and is unfortunately in Albany right now.

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 32 1 According to the EPA's Advanced Notice of 2 Proposed Rulemaking on the agency's potential 3 reassessment of its current authorizations for PCB use, 4 the agency is planning to change the level of 50 parts 5 per million in caulk which "may be widespread and may 6 be an undue burden for schools if the exclusion 7 continues at 50 parts per million." 8 Assembly Member Rosenthal stands in 9 opposition to raising the current regulatory level of 10 PCBs in caulk and is appalled that such an undertaking 11 is being attempted by the EPA which widely states that 12 the 50 parts per million standard which has been in use 13 since 1979 is based almost entirely on economic 14 considerations. 15 The dangers of PCBs are well documented and 16 people gain exposure to them through ingestion of PCB17 laden food and also through inhalation and physical 18 touching of PCBs that fall off from caulk present in 19 school and other buildings constructed using the 20 chemical before its ban. 21 PCBs have been observed to cause 22 cardiovascular, endocrine, immune, and cognitive 23 damage, in addition to other complications. In 24 children, whose developing systems are exposed to PCBs 25 in schools throughout the school year, exposure has

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 33 1 been additionally linked to attention deficit 2 hyperactivity disorder, increased aggression, and many 3 other symptoms that constitute a serious impediment to 4 cognitive development and learning. 5 Because children are of smaller size than 6 adults and have bodies that are still developing, their 7 absorption rate is greater than that of adults and this 8 can cause additional damage in the future. 9 While it is economic concerns that seem to be 10 the driving force behind this proposed regulation 11 change, we must not put aside the steadily-growing and 12 already-conclusive body of evidence that PCB exposure 13 at 50 parts per million levels has a measurably harmful 14 consequence. 15 At a time when the EPA is broadly reassessing 16 PCB standards, using updates of our scientific 17 understanding of the toxins to strengthen existing 18 standards and eliminate some authorized PCB uses all 19 together, this specific proposal stands shockingly 20 apart in its intent. 21 Assembly Member Linda Rosenthal's involvement 22 in the still emerging crisis of PCB contamination in 23 New York City schools began in 2008 with news that 24 caulk material containing PCBs had been detected at 25 P.S. 199, an elementary school in the Assembly Member's

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 34 1 district that was constructed in 1968, more than a 2 decade before the EPA banned the substance through the 3 Toxic Substances Control Act. 4 Of the eight different locations tested for 5 PCBs by the Daily News as part of an investigatory 6 story, P.S. 199 had the highest recorded concentration 7 levels. Parents and members of the general public 8 subsequently learned that the Department of Education 9 had performed testing immediately after an extensive 10 window replacement project had taken place which did 11 not follow protocols promulgated by the New York State 12 Education Department and which used inadequate safety 13 procedures in the clean-up and waste removal and 14 disposal process. 15 This led to a hastily-scheduled emergency 16 clean-up in response to an outcry by the parents, 17 elected officials, and the public. This experience and 18 the growing realization that this PCB issue was truly a 19 citywide phenomenon led Assembly Member Linda Rosenthal 20 to introduce legislation in April 2009 requiring the 21 testing of PCBs in all schools constructed or 22 rehabilitated within the 1950 to 1980 time period in 23 which PCBs were used by January 1st, 2012, and to have 24 50 percent of all testing completed by July 1st, 2011. 25 Assembly Bill A-7556(a) has now attracted

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 35 1 over 20 additional sponsors from all five boroughs and 2 remains the best available option for systematically 3 assessing the risks that New York City's children as 4 well as faculty and staff have and continue to be 5 exposed to for at least 10 months out of the year. 6 Following the January 2010 announcement that 7 the Department of Education and the EPA had agreed to a 8 five-school pilot program, Assembly Member Rosenthal 9 lauded this accomplishment as a positive first step. 10 Since then, the Assembly Member has become increasingly 11 concerned about both the methodology and the standards 12 that will be employed in these tests. 13 The Assembly Member is concerned whether the 14 air testing will be of the passive or active type, the 15 lack of testing of the caulking itself, and the limited 16 number of schools involved in the pilot program. 17 Surely these five schools cannot serve as the 18 last word on the status of contamination in hundreds 19 upon hundreds of school buildings, and if the EPA 20 changes the level of PCBs allowed to remain in air and 21 caulking in school buildings, then the dilution of 22 standards based on economic and not scientific concerns 23 might render this pilot a less than helpful exercise. 24 While Assembly Member Rosenthal continues to 25 advance this legislation in the New York State

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 36 1 Assembly, she is deeply disturbed by the purpose of 2 this hearing which is to reduce our nation's 3 environmental and safety standards regarding PCB 4 contamination in caulk from 50 parts per million to an 5 undetermined and higher concentration which would 6 preemptively reduce the clean-up and mitigation costs 7 associated with this contamination. 8 It would have been better had the EPA widely 9 publicized today's hearing rather than solely relying 10 on its publication in the Federal Register. Sadly, 11 similar cost-based arguments rather than rigorous 12 science-based reasoning were often employed by the Bush 13 Administration in its abdication of environmental 14 responsibility. 15 During the Bush years, scientific analysis 16 was routinely subjugated by industry concerns, both 17 outside and within our nation's environmental 18 regulatory agency. This proposed change of allowable 19 PCB levels is, however, especially disappointing coming 20 from the EPA's current leadership, and Assembly Member 21 Rosenthal believes that the EPA should withdraw its 22 proposal to reconsider the use of 50 parts per million 23 for PCBs in caulk. 24 Whether we are assessing results for the 25 five- school pilot or taking the eventual step of

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 37 1 examining the safety of all locations that underwent 2 construction in this three-decade range, we should 3 maintain the current standards currently in place and 4 not predetermine the results before these tests can be 5 conducted. 6 If, as many activists believe, the tests are 7 returned with negative or insufficient PCB levels to 8 warrant remediation efforts, parents, teachers, and 9 community members will openly speculate as to whether 10 or not they would have been returned positive under the 11 previous and more stringent criteria. 12 For the sake of students, parents, teachers, 13 staff and the clearly sincere effort of the EPA to come 14 to a better understanding of the effects of PCBs on our 15 nation, Assembly Member Rosenthal urges the EPA to 16 resume the path of proper environmental stewardship and 17 ensure the future safety and health of those within our 18 public school ecosystem. 19 Thank you. 20 [Applause.] 21 MR. SCHREIBER: Thank you. Our next speaker is 22 Valerie Watnick. 23 MS. WATNICK: Good afternoon. Thank you for 24 that introduction. 25 My name is Valerie Watnick. I wear many hats

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 38 1 today. I am a parent and I am also the former PTA co2 president at P.S. 199 in Manhattan, and I was the PTA 3 co-president at the time that an extensive window 4 renovation involving PCB-laden caulk was completed by 5 the New York City School Construction Authority. 6 P.S. 199 in Manhattan was a school that was 7 greatly affected by PCB releases when windows 8 containing greater than 50 parts per million, window 9 caulking, windows with window caulking containing 10 greater than 50 parts per million were removed and 11 replaced. 12 I am also, in addition to being the former 13 co- president of the PTA at P.S. 199, I am also a 14 professor at Baruch College. I teach Environmental Law 15 and Business Law and I am the author of a forthcoming 16 article this spring at the University of California at 17 Davis Law School in the Environmental Law Journal there 18 on PCBs in Schools. I have read and studied this issue 19 extensively nationwide. I believe it to be the first 20 article in a Law Review article and the first article 21 in Law Review about PCB contamination and the 22 regulation of such in schools. 23 I'm here today in my capacity really as a 24 parent and an advocate for children and as an academic. 25 In late 1970s, the EPA put the 50 parts per million

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 39 1 maximum concentration in caulk that was allowed in 2 place to safeguard human health. 3 Indeed, the EPA stated on May 31st, 1979, in 4 its final ruling on PCBs in caulk that lowering the PCB 5 limit from 500 parts per million to 50 parts per 6 million will result, and I quote, "in substantially 7 increased health and environmental protection." 8 There is no new scientific information that I 9 am aware of and as I said, I have studied this issue 10 extensively, to suggest that we should be less 11 protective of children's health in schools today and 12 that should change our mind about lowering that 13 standard. 14 Indeed, in October 2009, EPA officially 15 recognized and put out -- recognized the dangers of 16 these substances and put out a public guidance called 17 Public Health Levels for PCBs in Schools with Regard to 18 PCB Concentrations in Air that would be acceptable. 19 They recognized how dangerous these 20 contaminants can be in school air which house children 21 on a daily basis and for extended periods of time. 22 Currently, the latest air testing at P.S. 199 23 shows that for the three-to-six-year-old population, of 24 which we have many, many children, the levels of PCBs 25 in air are still currently above EPA's public health

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 40 1 levels that they set themselves in October 2009 and 2 this is after windows with caulking containing greater 3 than 50 parts per million were removed in that school 4 building and after an extensive effort by the New York 5 City School Construction Authority to clean up the 6 school. An extensive effort was made and yet the air 7 levels, the latest air testing results still show that 8 the air is contaminated at a level that the EPA deems 9 to be too high for the three-to-six-year-old population 10 and borderline high probably, I think the EPA would 11 agree, for children that are in the six-to-10-year-old 12 age group. 13 The New York City Pilot Study that Linda 14 Rosenthal's office just referred to is a study that 15 will look at one school in each county. It is, as was 16 previously mentioned, it is inadequate to really 17 consider what the level is and what the protections 18 need to be in place for all of the schools in New York 19 City. 20 This is a terrible, terrible effort by the 21 EPA to lower the standard that is currently in place. 22 It is an effort to say that if we cannot meet the 23 existing standard because it is difficult financially, 24 let's just lower it. 25 I respectfully ask that the EPA remove this

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 41 1 provision in the Advanced Notice of Public Rulemaking 2 to adjust the standard for caulk downward, and I thank 3 you for the opportunity to speak. 4 I also thank you Ann Casey for ceding her 5 time to me as I have to go back and teach a class. 6 Thank you very much. 7 [Applause.] 8 MR. Schreiber: Thank you. Our next speaker 9 is Miranda Massey, New York Lawyers for the Public 10 Interest. 11 MS. MASSEY: Hello. My remarks this 12 afternoon will be brief. 13 My name's Miranda Massey, and I'm an attorney 14 at New York Lawyers for the Public Interest, in our 15 Environmental Justice Section. We're a civil rights 16 nonprofit law firm and, among other things, litigates 17 and organizes around questions of environmental harms 18 throughout the five boroughs of New York City. 19 We became involved in this matter of PCBs in 20 caulk about two years ago and the reason I'll be brief 21 is that we've submitted a letter to Administrator 22 Jackson requesting in the strongest terms that the PCBs 23 in caulk provisions from this Advanced Notice be 24 withdrawn for reasons I'll get into a little bit this 25 afternoon, got into more in the letter, and, if it's

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 42 1 necessary to do so, will submit extensive written 2 statements before the July deadline, but we very much 3 hope that that won't be the case. 4 We think that these provisions are, to put it 5 bluntly, an intellectual embarrassment and a discredit 6 to the agency. It's clear that they were added on to 7 provisions that had been in development regarding 8 capacitors and transformers for some time, that they 9 were added on rationally and at the last minute. They 10 don't have the same degree of technical detail and they 11 are in flat contradiction with many other aspects of 12 the Advanced Notice. 13 I'll just give two examples of that. There's 14 one point at which 50 parts per million is presumed to 15 continue to be a relevant threshold standard when the 16 PCBs in question are contained within a capacitor. In 17 other words, it's an enclosed use. 18 There is absolutely no basis for EPA to be 19 considering eliminating that same 50 parts per million 20 standard in the event of an unenclosed use in a 21 classroom when it is by now very clearly established 22 that PCBs spontaneously volatilize out of caulk in the 23 classroom even when that caulk appears to be completely 24 intact. 25 If it's dangerous inside a capacitor, it's

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 43 1 dangerous out in the open air of a classroom, and the 2 fact is that we know it is dangerous. I'll echo 3 Profess Watnick's comments about what we knew in the 4 late '70s because it turns out that the claim that this 5 was a standard adopted for purely economic reasons 6 finds no textual support. This is from the Code of 7 Federal Regulations and this is, in other words, EPA 8 talking. 9 The manufacture, processing, and distribution 10 in commerce of PCBs at concentrations of 50 parts per 11 million or greater presents an unreasonable risk of 12 injury to health. This finding is based on the well13 documented human health and environmental hazards of 14 PCB exposure. 15 We had plenty of science in 1979 to know that 16 50 parts per million, while you can't distinguish it 17 greatly from 51 parts per million or 49 in terms of 18 science, not then, not now, probably not ever, was a 19 sensible standard to adopt for the protection of human 20 health and the environment and now, decades later, 21 there's plenty more science. 22 Every month, every week some months, there's 23 a new peer-reviewed study that shows how toxic PCBs are 24 at extremely low levels of exposure. We see gender 25 abnormalities in children, disturbance of immune

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 44 1 function, neurological deficiencies in adults, leukemia 2 in children, all of these at very low levels of 3 environmental, not dietary plus environmental, not 4 total body burden but environmental PCB exposure. 5 There's no support in science for the 6 proposal that this threshold be loosened or eliminated. 7 There simply isn't any support in science. There's 8 economic anxiety about what it will cost to enforce 9 these regulations and, frankly, that's understandable. 10 It will be expensive to enforce these regulations. 11 That's not the same thing as saying it will be 12 more expensive than not enforcing them if you make a 13 calculation that's intellectually whole and that takes 14 health costs into consideration over the course of the 15 lifetimes of the children we're talking about not 16 protecting against PCB exposure from caulk at all. 17 There are two final points I want to make 18 about why this portion of the Advanced Notice is so 19 profoundly discrediting of the EPA. The contradictions 20 textually between these provisions and the rest of the 21 Notice are something I encourage everyone in this room 22 who's interested in increasing or maintaining 23 protections against this toxin to take a very close 24 look at. It's not an easy read, as people have pointed 25 out, but the contradictions, both the logical

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 45 1 contradictions and the contradiction in terms of the 2 degree of intellectual development of these proposals, 3 are very, very striking and they undermine confidence 4 in this move by the agency, to put it mildly. 5 The second way in which this is a disservice 6 both to the agency and to the public is in the timing. 7 As has already been noted by other people who've 8 addressed this body, EPA Region II has just reached a 9 landmark pilot study agreement with the New York City 10 Department of Education. 11 Is it adequate? No. Is it an important step 12 forward? Absolutely. At least equally importantly, in 13 October when EPA announced the new guidance's to which 14 Professor Watnick referred, it also announced the 15 launching of two scientific initiatives to gather data 16 nationwide about PCB exposure pathways from caulk. 17 To propose now when EPA has, in the view of 18 many members of the community, belatedly recognized the 19 importance of this exposure pathway and the threat that 20 it poses to children's health and has undertaken two 21 major national scientific initiatives to advance our 22 common understanding about what to do about this 23 emerging public health crisis, to announce now that we 24 should be thinking about in any way relaxing or 25 eliminating a standard that has been in place since

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 46 1 1979 because it is health protective is, I'll say it 2 again, seriously discrediting of the agency. 3 We strongly urge reconsideration of the 4 inclusion of these provisions in the Notice. They 5 can't do any good. They can only do harm. The problem 6 that we face is not the PCB regulations, it's PCB 7 contamination in our schools. 8 Thank you. 9 [Applause.] 10 MS. DONEGAN: Thank you for letting me speak 11 today. I feel slightly out of my element. I'm just a 12 parent. I'm a mother of two children. I live in 13 Staten Island. 14 And while I do feel out of my element today, 15 I think my story is important to share with all of you, 16 if for no other reason than to grasp the impact that 17 this change could have just on one school in one 18 borough. 19 In September 2006, my youngest child started 20 3rd Grade at P.S. 53, Bay Terrace School in Staten 21 Island. That same week he turned eight. He was very 22 excited to be in 3rd Grade. It was an exciting year 23 for his school. They were celebrating their 40 24 Anniversary. Do the math. It was built in 1966. 25 It's not unlike many of the schools in Staten

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 47 1 Island, given the population explosion post the Arizona 2 Bridge Many of the schools built around the same era 3 and I think that it would be redundant to say at this 4 point we know that the caulk was -- PCBs were added to 5 the caulk to help with that construction. 6 I've heard a lot of things about how great 7 that made the construction process for the schools, how 8 they could work into the winter, how it was pliable and 9 flexible. Sounds like a great thing. Why not use it 10 in every school building? 11 His room was on the third floor. It was a 12 southern exposure. The first week of school they went, 13 there was no AC in his room. The room was stifling 14 hot. The windows were jammed and mainly inoperable 15 because they were 40 years old. 16 The good news was that they were going to be 17 doing a window renovation in his school that year and 18 we were very lucky we'd be getting new windows. He was 19 in a CTT class. I don't know if any of you are aware 20 what that means. It's a Collaborative Team Approach to 21 Teaching. Half the children are special ed, half are 22 general ed. 23 The children that are special ed are 24 receiving services whether for a learning delay or 25 health reason and the other half, general ed. Because

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 48 1 of this, there are two teachers in the room. One is 2 special ed, one is general ed. It's important to note 3 that both of his teachers were pregnant in their first 4 trimester of pregnancy. 5 They couldn't open the windows because they 6 were difficult to move up and down and they couldn't 7 really -- being pregnant did not want to fight with 8 them, but again the good news was the construction 9 project was on the way. We were getting new windows 10 and ACs. 11 Well, let me just give you a little 12 background on my child. He's a healthy athletic active 13 little boy. He plays every organized sport you can 14 imagine, football, baseball, basketball. Many 15 overlapping seasons, can do two hours of football 16 practice and continue on to basketball practice, all 17 the while in between running inside and outside 18 skateboarding, jumping, running, riding a bike. He 19 never stops. He's a healthy child. 20 He does, however, have asthma. He was 21 diagnosed at two. It's not unusual in the environment 22 we live in, especially this city. Most children have 23 asthma. It was usually controlled, never needed to be 24 on long-term medication, related to a winter cold or 25 virus, sometimes extreme temperatures and air, extreme

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 49 1 cold, very mild asthma, well under control, did not 2 have any problems. 3 Between kindergarten and 2nd Grade, he went 4 to his school nurse for one nebulizer treatment related 5 to asthma. In three years, he went once. Within a 6 month of 2006, the scaffolding was up on my school and 7 the window renovation began. 8 What I also noticed and with my child is I 9 was being called repeatedly from the school nurse, 10 started out one day a week, two days a week, three days 11 a week. He was in at the nurse complaining of wheezing 12 and could not breathe and he was getting two to three 13 nebulizer treatments a day. He was picked up 14 constantly and by the time I would get there, he would 15 be so pale and sick from the inhaled steroids he 16 couldn't sit in the school if he had wanted to. 17 I don't know how many of you have asthma or 18 have children with asthma. I myself have had asthma my 19 whole life. When you can't breathe, you feel like you 20 want to jump out of your skin. Once you get your 21 medication, while you can breathe, you again feel like 22 you want to jump out of your skin. It is a steroid. 23 You are dizzy. You are shaky. Your heart is racing. 24 The amount of medication needed to help him 25 through the day there was incredible. He had never

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 50 1 been like that in his life, never had I seen an 2 exacerbation to that degree, and it has never been like 3 that since. It was the same story day after day. He's 4 wheezing, please get him. He's on his second 5 treatment, I can't clear him. He feels sick now, he's 6 dizzy, please come and pick him up. 7 His medications were increased to four drugs 8 a day, both oral and inhaled steroids and over-the9 counter Zyrtec, in an attempt to keep him free and 10 clear, clearly breathing within the school, all the 11 while the construction was going on every night in his 12 building, new windows. 13 He always seemed better once I got him home. 14 Even on the weekends, even over school breaks, he was 15 fine. Over the Easter break in 2007, six months into 16 the job, the weather had changed, he was great. He was 17 off for two weeks and I thought we had finally crossed 18 the hurdle of his asthma season and whatever had 19 exacerbated him. 20 His first day back to school, within two 21 hours I was called by the nurse. He could not breathe. 22 Why? Why? I was at my job and couldn't understand it. 23 I spoke to the principal and I do want to say I had a 24 fantastic school, a fantastic administration, teachers, 25 nurses, custodians. We have a beautiful clean school.

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 51 1 I had no complaints, but I wanted to know why, what was 2 going on in that school, what was going on at night in 3 that school that was creating some sort of trigger or 4 an environment that was making my child incapable of 5 breathing there. 6 It was at that time that the principal shared 7 with me that they were doing daily air studies during 8 this construction to make sure that the school was safe 9 to be open. I had no idea what kind of air studies. I 10 still don't know, but I assumed that someone was making 11 sure it was safe. 12 She also shared with me that the custodians 13 were coming in extra early to clean up after the 14 construction crews with the amount of dust that was 15 left in the school. They were cleaning and getting the 16 classrooms ready for the children and the occupants of 17 that building every day. There were over 800 children 18 in that school. I can't say how many teachers. I 19 imagine at least 60. I would say about 80 percent of 20 them were women and a good percent of them -- 21 percentage of them were women of childbearing age. His 22 own two teachers were pregnant and several other 23 teachers were pregnant. 24 While I was relieved to hear that the air 25 studies were fine, I still could not figure out why my

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 52 1 child was sick. All those nebulizer treatments, all 2 those trips to the school nurse, coughing, shaking, 3 dizzy, uncomfortable, scared, anxious, and finally me 4 having to pick him up, only to get him home and see him 5 improve. 6 The principal and the vice principal did 7 everything they could to try and help me. They cleaned 8 the room. They pulled out the rug. They shampooed the 9 rug. We knew that it was dust or some kind of trigger. 10 I knew that. I don't have to be a scientist. You're 11 all well versed in a lot of this that I know nothing 12 about, but I think if you know anything at all about 13 asthma, you know that there are environmental triggers. 14 I knew for a fact that something had changed 15 within that school. I couldn't figure out if it was 16 dust or mold, something, something was not right. The 17 school year ended. Miraculously, he became well again, 18 had a fantastic summer, running 10 hours a day, in and 19 out, every sport, swimming, biking, whatever you can 20 imagine, the kid never stops. 21 He went back to school in the Fall of '07, 22 brand-new windows in my school, air conditioning in his 23 room, fantastic, but within weeks the pattern began 24 again, back on medications, back at the nurse, two 25 nebulizer treatments, three nebulizer treatments, could

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 53 1 not clear my child, wheezing on inhalation, wheezing on 2 expiratory, and he wasn't alone. The six other 3 asthmatic kids in the school were all behaving the 4 same, same symptoms. 5 You would arrive at the nurse's office to 6 pick up your child. It was surreal. There were four 7 and five kids with nebulizers strapped to their faces 8 sitting in the classroom. As the heat came on, the 9 conditions became worse. Again, you're the scientists. 10 You're the people in the industry. I think you know 11 how PCBs behave with radiators. 12 The radiators, the heat, they were under the 13 window that were ripped out. The school was certainly 14 treated, what I heard later, as if it contained PCBs. 15 It's important to note that the job at my school was 16 one year prior to this coming to any kind of forefront 17 in 2007 or any recommendation by anyone on how to treat 18 the jobs. 19 I knew the trigger was in the school. I 20 couldn't duplicate his symptoms anywhere, even from 21 running around in the cold for hours at football. After 22 the Christmas break, my husband and I decided we needed 23 to do something. We shared our concerns with the vice 24 principal and after consulting my child's 25 pulmonologist, we agreed -- he agreed to allow us to

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 54 1 place an air purifier in my son's classroom, if for 2 nothing else to clean the dust out of his room to help 3 him breathe. 4 We knew the dust particulates from 5 construction were causing a problem. His job was to 6 turn it on and off every day, yet he was still 7 wheezing, still sick, and all the moms were starting to 8 ask what's up, why can't my kid breathe in this school? 9 I kind of describe my child as a canary in 10 the coal mine. I knew something was wrong. Something 11 was wrong. He had never ever reacted like that with 12 asthma to anything and we don't live in a bubble. I'd 13 be lying if I said my house was dust-free. I'd be 14 lying if I said he wasn't exposed to many, many 15 contaminants in the world we live in. Yet, it was so 16 troubling, I could not figure out why in that school 17 but I was determined to find out an answer. 18 A few -- the patterns continued and a few 19 months later, I happened to be reading an article in 20 April 2008 of my Daily News and there I saw something 21 about window construction and PCBs. What's a PCB? I 22 don't know PCB from an ABC. I don't know what it is, 23 but I knew something was wrong. I knew the condition 24 in my child's school had changed drastically with that 25 construction job, night after night ripping out

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 55 1 windows, working, cutting, grinding. I don't know what 2 they were doing. It was not my job to watch them. I 3 just knew my child was sick as a direct cause of 4 something going on there, a major project over 10 5 months. This is not coincidence. It just isn't. It 6 couldn't be. 7 The teachers were cleaning his air filter on 8 a weekly basis and mentioned to me how dirty it was. I 9 asked them not to do that. When I read the article, 10 the air filter was home with me because I was going to 11 show it to his doctor to ask if she could write a 12 letter to help me clean his classroom. 13 That air filter, to make a long story short, 14 was tested by a lab and it contained 994 parts per 15 million of PCBs on the exterior filter. The interior 16 filter, which was more of the heap filter, had 225 17 parts per million of PCBs. That was directly taken out 18 of that classroom, cleaning that dust, filtering that 19 air that my child and 30 other children were breathing 20 all daylong in that room and two pregnant teachers and 21 that's one little classroom in one little school. 22 A question came as to where the air filter 23 had run before that. It was brought to the school 24 brand new in a box, bought at Costco for a $150. It 25 still had the tag on it in the classroom.

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 56 1 I asked the School Construction Authority if 2 they felt that it was an inaccurate find, that they 3 should pull the air conditioning filter out of my 4 child's classroom. Certainly there would be no 5 question about what air that was filtering. That 6 filter was pulled but was never tested. This all 7 coincided with the April 2008 hearings with the City 8 Council. The SCA crawled over my school all weekend. 9 They took dozens and dozens of wipes and air samples. 10 No air testing was over 90 minutes long, not one. It 11 was done with a NIOSH method and again this is way 12 beyond my scope. You're the experts. You know what it 13 means. 14 Apparently the way the air, 90 milliliters of 15 air were forced through in 90 minutes became almost 16 impossible to detect PCBs at that rate. The wipes were 17 taken from the center of clean rooms. No vents were 18 wiped, no filters were taken, no radiators behind or 19 under where windows were pulled out were wiped. No 20 dust from anything that may have looked like it could 21 have been related to construction dust was ever tested. 22 The City agreed that the school air was PCB23 free. It was safe and free of all toxins. 24 One find was detected at 50 parts per million 25 in the 2nd Grade classroom. At the PTA meeting that

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 57 1 night, a representative of the School Construction 2 Authority said that that could have possibly come in on 3 someone's shoe. That was not an accurate find. That 4 same find was later explained to me as a lab error or 5 so far off the scope of any find that it couldn't 6 really be accurate. 7 Again, I'm just a mom. These are the 8 experts. I don't know how you find PCBs, but I 9 certainly was able to find it myself. It was in my air 10 filter. I tested an air conditioner filter for them 11 because they would not. It had over 400 parts per 12 million of PCBs in it. 13 At one point I took a key and took a chunk 14 out of the interior caulking on the front door. It had 15 79,100 parts per million of PCBs. Every single thing I 16 was able to take from that school had PCBs in it. The 17 City was not able to find any. They did, however, have 18 to do soil studies under some direction of the EPA at 19 that time because they were somewhat involved. 20 Two to six inches down, there was a detection 21 of PCB and it was over the allowed amount. The topsoil 22 was never tested. I understand that EPA asked them to 23 test it but that was never done. I guess I should be 24 happy that a total soil remediation was done in my 25 school but it still doesn't answer what are we going to

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 58 1 do about construction in the schools. 2 While I sit here and listen to words such as 3 budgets and burdens and billions and millions and self4 regulation and safety, I wonder where all those words 5 were in my classroom. This was a full year before any 6 recommendation by anyone to make sure what you're 7 taking out of that room was safe. There was nobody 8 watching anything. Every night it was a construction 9 zone with tons and tons of caulking being cut out of 10 the walls and the ceilings and wherever else again I do 11 not know, and the dust had little to no control in that 12 project. 13 The air studies, I came to find, certainly 14 did not have any PCB results because they weren't 15 testing for it and they still are not today. They 16 wouldn't test the caulking when they came in to check 17 the school because they didn't have to. They still 18 haven't in that particular school. 19 I have to say that there would be no reason 20 to think that the findings at P.S. 53 would have been 21 any different had it gotten the attention P.S. 199 got. 22 Had we had the air studies and attention, we might have 23 been cleaned up, as well. We are almost four years out 24 from that construction project and no one has ever gone 25 in and cleaned that school or tested it to the degree

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 59 1 that I think it should have. 2 It's beyond my wildest comprehension as a 3 mother that someone could come right into your 4 classroom every single night and pull out something as 5 dangerous as a PCB and contaminate with dust throughout 6 the books, the desks, the toys, the rugs. There was 7 nothing covering anything. There was no one watching. 8 There was no one cleaning. 9 The whole process has been quite sobering for 10 me. I am not in the political arena. I am not -- 11 again, I'll say it, I'm a fish out of water here today, 12 but it's been surreal for me to think that as much as I 13 try to protect my child and the environment we live in, 14 and I'm not naI know what exists everywhere, I can only 15 protect my child so much. When I send him to school, 16 no one is protecting him. Nobody was looking out. No 17 one has cleaned the school. No one has tested the 18 school. 19 So I'm asking that the PCB and the caulk 20 issue not fall on the back of all the other talk of 21 sources of PCBs. Somebody needs to regulate it and 22 somebody needs to assure me and every other parent that 23 this mistake will not be repeated. There's no one 24 protecting the kids in the schools and I just hope that 25 my story highlights what it really means to do

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 60 1 construction and pull this out of a school every night 2 of the week. 3 Thank you. 4 [Applause.] 5 MR. SCHREIBER: All right. Ann, would you 6 like to speak now? 7 Okay. Well, really, it would be more 8 convenient for me if you'd speak now. I don't see 9 anyone else stepping forward. 10 MS. CASEY: Good afternoon, everyone. My 11 name's Ann Casey, and I have to say, because I promised 12 with great angst before I came, that I would put this 13 up and say it, that the opinions that I'm expressing 14 today are my own. They are not of my current employer, 15 any agency or past employer, any organization, or any 16 peer review group I have been involved with. 17 Just a little background on me for those of 18 you who don't know me. I'm a graduate of the College 19 of St. Rose in Albany. I have a B.A. in Sociology and 20 a B.S. in Biology. For the past 22 years, I've done 21 nothing but PCB work, whether it be research, 22 development, method extractions, analysis, and 23 monitoring PCBs. 24 I've co-authored eight peer-reviewed 25 publications. I've given several oral presentations on

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 61 1 PCBs, effects of PCBs, detection of PCBs. I have 2 developed several extraction and analysis techniques 3 for PCBs into the ultra-low detections of PPT which 22 4 years ago I didn't need but today we are finding that 5 we need that. 6 I'm also a parent. I have four children. I 7 have a 13-year-old, eight-year-old triplets, and that's 8 why I was late getting down here today. I missed the 9 first train because of them. 10 I would like to commend the EPA. I knew 11 today they were going to get pounded on pretty hard 12 about this whole reauthorization process, but this has 13 been a long time coming, everyone. For the folks who 14 are new at this, we have been asking for this, I would 15 say, for the past 25 years, that we come back and we 16 look at TOSCA and we look at the 50 ppm level, and it's 17 always been tabled. 18 I mean, I can tell you meetings in the '90s 19 that I sat through right here at Region II and everyone 20 saying, you know, we're not quite there yet, we're not 21 quite there yet. 22 The reassessment's long overdue. Now, do I 23 agree with the caulk add-on to this reassessment? No, 24 I was not too happy to see that. 25 The other part of the assessment is very well

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 62 1 thought out and obviously EPA has been developing this 2 for awhile when you read through this until you get to 3 the caulk part. 4 I want everybody to know here today this is 5 going to be a long, hard, and difficult task to 6 complete. It's not going to happen overnight. It's 7 not going to happen within the next year would be my 8 guess, to be very honest with you. It's going to take 9 awhile and I know as a parent that's hard to hear. As 10 a researcher, it's hard to say. 11 History is a great teacher, if we're willing 12 to listen and hear what's being said. One of the very 13 first research projects that I worked on when I was 14 with the New York State Department of Health was the 15 Love Canal Reassessment. Ten years after everybody 16 realized that we had children and parents and people 17 living on a toxic waste dump and what were we going to 18 do about it? 19 Right around the same time, TOSCA was coming 20 through. We didn't have a lot of the laws that we have 21 today back then. That was a very hard time in our 22 history, but it also was a wake-up call and, you know, 23 I give presentations all the time. When I go to 24 classes now, I have to find a new site because I put 25 Love Canal up and the next generation doesn't know what

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 63 1 I'm talking about. They don't know that over 900 2 families were moved off of Love Canal because the toxic 3 waste was so great and what it looked like yesterday, I 4 remember that picture, and what it looks like today. 5 It's an open field. 6 People are reoccupying Love Canal area. The 7 clean-up's still goes on. They're still treating water 8 there. They're still measuring stuff there. It still 9 goes on and we can learn a lot from that as we start 10 with our reassessment, but that was the kick-off to 11 really environmental chemistry, to laboratory response, 12 to health department, to EPA responses, and we can't 13 forget that. We have a good solid foundation. We 14 learned the hard way, unfortunately, and sometimes I 15 don't think it gets carried through, and I think that's 16 the frustration we're hearing today from parents, is 17 that nobody's watching for my child. 18 A lot of people get really upset when I put 19 this slide on. Lois Gibbs certainly became homegrown 20 activist and what people don't realize or what people 21 have forgotten was her son John became ill in June of 22 1978. In August, that's when the state of emergency 23 was put into effect. By the next fall John was dead 24 due to kidney disease. Lois doesn't have her son here 25 today to tell us what toxic waste did to her family and

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 64 1 it wasn't just PCBs. There was lots of other stuff at 2 Love Canal. I'm not just focusing on PCBs. But it's to 3 illustrate what happens when we're not watching, when 4 we don't pay attention. 5 So reassessments of PCBs and TOSCA. We have 6 30 years plus of research. We have lots and lots of 7 research out there. It's good research. It's research 8 that shows we were right in putting the 50 ppm out 9 there. We were right in doing that because lots of 10 people wanted 500, lots of people wanted a 100. Fifty 11 was settled on and it was enforced and we've seen the 12 levels go down in our environment which is fabulous. 13 Is it to where I want it? No, it's not. I'll 14 be honest with you. It's not. Our laboratory analysis 15 and technology improvements over the past 30 years have 16 been phenomenal. What we can do today, even in the 17 past 10 years, has moved so far in advance. 18 Northeast Analytical, who I work for, we were 19 the lead lab for the Hudson River Project of GE Clean20 up, the Upper Hudson this summer. We processed 18,000 21 samples for PCBs through our laboratory in 200 days. 22 Let me say that again. 18,000 samples/200 days. They 23 weren't just air chlor analyses, run of the mill 24 analysis. A lot of them were specific analysis down to 25 9 PPT total PCBs to make sure we were protecting not

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 65 1 only the ecology and environmental health but people's 2 health down there during this project. 3 So we have the technology. It's there. We 4 can test. We know how to do it correctly. It's 5 getting people to do it correctly is the issue that we 6 have. Understanding PCB chemistry, that's a really 7 hard one and it's hard for everybody, even for folks 8 like me who have done this for years. Trying to 9 explain it to the lay person is hard. 10 I'll keep on with my slides here. This is 11 just to give you an idea of where I'm going to focus 12 instead of -- what's the research telling us? It's 13 telling us women and children should not be exposed at 14 any level to PCBs. We know this. We've known this for 15 years now. 16 Cancer is not the only endpoint we should 17 look at with PCBs, although it's a good endpoint, it's 18 not the only endpoint in assessing the effects of PCBs 19 and especially when we start looking at kids. That is 20 not our endpoint that we should be using. 21 For a long time ingestion was the main focus 22 of research of PCBs. What we found is inhalation and 23 dermal exposure are also very viable routes and 24 especially when you start talking about kids. We're 25 not talking about the workmen who took inherent risk

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 66 1 taking a job of working on transformers in an 2 electrical company who knew the risk of PCBs. 3 We're talking about kids sitting in a 4 classroom where they're supposed to be trying to learn 5 and being exposed unbeknownst to them, unbeknownst to 6 their parents and even to the teachers, faculty and 7 staff of the schools. That's more the issue. 8 Like I said, we've really increased our 9 detection of PCBs, how we do it. At one time when the 10 50 ppm level was put in place 30 years ago, we were 11 sure as scientists, and I can probably prance out here 12 a hundred scientists who would say the same thing, yes, 13 we felt confident that everyone could measure 50 ppm 14 and identify the air chlor without much problem. They 15 could do that. 16 Now what we can do is we can do congener17 specific analysis, actually individual congeners that 18 make up the air chlor, and we can get it down to PPT 19 ranges. We can go much lower and we can identify the 20 air chlors much better than we used to be able to, but 21 it takes a lab that does it day in/day out and that 22 knows PCB analysis. This isn't a fly by night 23 analysis. This isn't a 50 buck a night analysis. It 24 just isn't. This is highly technical analysis, but it 25 needs to be done to get the right answer.

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 67 1 You know, tons of lab studies have been done 2 the past 30 years. Pretty much, if you all read the 3 literature, lab studies have shown on rats that there 4 are effects at environmentally-relevant levels, not 5 dosing a rat at 50 ppm and the rat dies. No. They're 6 dosing rats down at .5 ppm or at 900 nanograms per 7 cubic meter and they're finding effects. That's where 8 the research is taking us now and something that we 9 can't forget when we're reassessing TOSCA, that the 10 research is there and we should use it to our ability. 11 This is the biggest problem. Understanding 12 the chemistry. They are a complicated class of 13 chemicals. They are manmade. So many times I hear 14 people get up and say, well, they're like lead. They're 15 nothing like lead. Lead is a naturally- occurring 16 component of our earth's crust. Have we abused lead? 17 Have we misused it? Have we disposed of it improperly? 18 Yes, we have it. Does it affect children? Most 19 definitely. 20 PCBs are manmade. They don't occur 21 naturally. You have to force them to get them. Okay. 22 They are volatile. They are soluble in water. They 23 are absorbed by animals and humans and they're great 24 mimickers. That's the problem. We can't follow all 25 the pathways.

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 68 1 So why are we saying, oh, let's just kind of 2 slide this under the carpet here? We'll just ignore it 3 when we know this. They're all over the world. They're 4 in soil, water, food, meat, fish, milk, air, and humans 5 without a doubt. 6 I have been testing for 22 years and I have 7 seen very few human serums in bloods without PCBs in 8 them. The younger generation has them much less than, 9 say, people born between 1960 and 1978. We were the 10 greatest exposed generation and our body burdens show 11 us that. 12 PCB levels have gone down with enforcement 13 because of TOSCA. If we didn't have it in place, we 14 would be looking at levels from the 1960s and 1970s 15 still. They would have gone away. But they are still 16 in many products that are out there today and in use 17 and that's our problem. 18 We don't know all the products and where they 19 are. It's not just transformers. It's not just 20 fluorescent light fixtures. It's not just caulk. We 21 use them in everything. They have found their way into 22 every industry and if you don't believe me, if you're 23 bored and have insomnia some night, go on the Web and 24 search U.S. patents for air chlors and see how many 25 come up. It's really quite scary.

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 69 1 We all are in contact with them every day. 2 This is not just a New York City problem. Now I know 3 the school district in New York has a huge problem, but 4 I'm here to tell you it's not just here. Pretty much 5 every major metropolitan area on the East Coast has 6 this problem. It just is a fact. 7 I mean, I have not seen -- since 2006, we 8 have tested over 1,600 caulks, 70 percent of them have 9 tested greater than 50 ppm. The very population we 10 want to keep safe are children and women of 11 childbearing years are still in contact due to the 12 products that have been in use for 30+ years. 13 Is 50 ppm a reasonable level? 30 years ago, 14 yeah, it was. I agreed with them. I don't agree today 15 that that is a reasonable level. It's too high. We 16 need to start coming down. It needs to be incremental 17 and, yes, I realize this is going to cost money. 18 I feel a fair target would be 10 ppm. I 19 would love one but I'll never get one. So I'll settle 20 with 10. 21 We also need to figure out how many products 22 are in use still 30 years later and how many are coming 23 in contact with the environment and I don't think we 24 have a really good sense of that and how long the 25 product life has. This is outside of transformers and

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 70 1 capacitors and things like that. This is more like the 2 caulks, the mastics, the ceiling tiles, light switches, 3 paint coatings, some things like that. 4 I do not believe that products or anything 5 that has PCBs in them should be removed from TOSCA. 6 Because we've come so far, let's not set the clock back 7 because once you let one product go, everybody's going 8 to start knocking at your door, saying well, you let 9 caulk go, why can't my mastic that we use putting down 10 hundreds of thousands of linear feet of floor tiles be 11 taken out then? Where does it stop? It's not going 12 to. 13 If anything, we need more recordkeeping and I 14 know for industry this is hard. I understand you have 15 millions, if not hundreds of millions of capacitors and 16 transformers and equipment that has PCB oil in it, but 17 we need better recordkeeping and better accountability 18 and that should be in TOSCA and it should be in TOSCA, 19 not just for major industry. It should be for all our 20 public buildings, including schools. 21 Economics are important. I'm the first one to 22 tell you, yes, my job relies on the fact of how many 23 samples I can bring through the lab. It's economics. 24 But if we fail to protect our water, our food, our air, 25 and our children, then we fail to exists; and to me,

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 71 1 that I will pay anything to protect as a parent, as a 2 scientist, and as a community stakeholder. That's 3 pretty much it. 4 (Applause) 5 MR. SCHREIBER: Okay. So I promised the 6 break at 3 o'clock. Let's go ahead with that for 10 7 minutes and reconvene at 10 after. 8 * * * * * 9 MR. WEYMOUTH: What happened to all 10 the people that were a while ago? They all snuck out, 11 huh? I'm going to put a little different twist on 12 this, ladies and gentlemen. My name is George 13 Weymouth. I've been 40 years in the bricklayers union, 14 and I worked in the outside skin of those building all 15 my life. I have two kids that are doing it now and 16 probably my grandchildren will be doing it as well. 17 Just looking out that window you can see the 18 caulking. I'd say those joints are a half inch wide, 19 no more than a quarter inch deep, and I counted the 20 floors in that building, and I'm saying there's 21 approximately 50,000 linear feet of caulking in it. I'd 22 like to go over and grab a sample. That's what I'm 23 famous for. I've taken samples in Yorktown, Boston, all 24 over Boston. I've got tons of samples, and that one 25 there look really good, and I can tell you if it come

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 72 1 out 25, 30,000 parts per million, you've got 1,740 2 pounds of PCBs in that building either at 1260 or 1254 3 Albacar, but that's just something I've seen. 4 In the '90s, I was involved with Bob Herrick 5 in the School of Public Health in the Center to Protect 6 Workers' Rights. Now, it's the Center of Research and 7 Training, and I trained in industrial hygiene 8 principles in work to help reduce dust, silica dust in 9 the workplace; and that, of course, is a carcinogen as 10 we're all aware of. We were using control methods, 11 some kind of vacuum system hooked up to tool; and as we 12 made dust, we vacuumed that dust into a container, HEPA 13 vac, and it was disposed of properly. Not that it was 14 hazardous, it was just that it was silica, a respirable 15 silica, the molecule of which if I had in my finger and 16 dropped it right now, I'd be all finished this 17 presentation before it hit the floor, and that's a 18 respirable amount. When you see people making dust in 19 these building, what you see is naturally a volume of 20 dust. What you don't see is the smallest molecules 21 being blown two and three miles down the road. 22 At the time -- after doing that, I retired. I 23 retired in 2002. In 2003 or just before that, I get a 24 phone call from my pal over at Harvard, Bob Herrick; 25 and he says, "Let's have lunch. I've got something I

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 73 1 want you to read." It was the Helsinki report from 2 Finland. In that report, I read about the polysulfide 3 caulking, and that really, it really struck a chord 4 because that's what I've been working with all those 5 year up until the late '70s. And I got -- I had 6 chloracne from my knees down because I can explain how 7 that stuff is mixed, and when you mix it -- it doesn't 8 come in one part. It comes in several containers, 9 several parts in one can. You dump these things in 10 color activator, and you mix it with a paddle. When 11 you're mixing it, you hold the can in between your 12 feet, and you got to move this paddle around and mix it 13 properly as it has one continuous color whether it be 14 off-white, bronze, red, whatever they want, the 15 architects want for a color. In so doing, your 16 clothing -- your -- your pant legs seems to move a bit 17 as you're mixing this, and the gases come out of the 18 can and they come up your pant legs, and that's how you 19 get chloracne. I used to go to bed scratching so bad 20 I'd be red-blood raw in the morning. 21 At this point in time, I've got a lung 22 disease. I've my first open-heart surgery when I was 23 37. Of course, I like to think it was because of my 24 second wife was quite a bit younger I was, but that's 25 beside the point.

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 74 1 (Laughter) 2 MR. WEYMOUTH: And I've had problems 3 since. I have two children with attention-deficit 4 disorder. I have two grandchildren that have learning 5 disability problem. They have a certain -- a 6 comprehension problem when they -- when they read. And 7 I had no idea, wouldn't know what those things possibly 8 -- I knew I worked hard all my life, but I didn't know 9 possibly I may might have had things that would be 10 detrimental to my health in the workplace. 11 And as I said, as part of the dust control, I 12 felt I was really doing something for my fellow workers 13 out there when we implemented -- when we went to these 14 jobs that we had a certain dust control. We were 15 fitted for masks by professionals, and it worked, it 16 worked. 17 Just to jump ahead, I was in the meeting down 18 in New York there a few months back. I forget exactly 19 when it was. I didn't have an opportunity to speak, 20 but I was almost coming out of my chair when the 21 teachers came up to the podium and they said that 22 before their student could start class they had to wipe 23 off their desks and their chairs, and some of them had 24 to wipe off their books, and I just -- I went wild. I 25 just couldn't believe it. We don't do that in Boston.

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 75 1 We don't work on school during the year unless it's a 2 very much an emergency repair. We hit school hard if 3 we're going to make any dust at all from the time 4 school is out during the summertime till it comes back 5 in fall especially if it has anything to do with the 6 masonry or dust, window replacement, etcetera. It's 7 just not done. It's done during those summer months, 8 so that's a big difference between, you know, 9 Massachusetts and New York. 10 I remember cutting out, you know, old 11 caulking like that building; and in order to have the 12 new silicon caulkings adhere, those -- the residue from 13 the old polysulfide would have to be removed, and you 14 do that by scarifying with an electric tool the 15 masonry, and that gives you what they call a virgin 16 surface that would enable the new silicon caulkings 17 that they use today to adhere properly. 18 There's another thing I'd like to get to as 19 far as the caulking itself. We didn't know, you know, 20 much about it other than on the can it said cause brain 21 damage. We kind of got a boot out of that because we 22 figured we all had brain damage to be in the business, 23 and it said to wash your hands before we ate. 24 Again, looking at that building over there, 25 in the corner of the windows and certain parts of the

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 76 1 joints where the joints in the stones meets the joints 2 in the windows, it's kind of hard to get a tool in 3 there to smooth it out, so lot of times we used to do 4 that on that raw material. Many times I went down in 5 my truck and looked in the mirror and saw caulking on 6 my -- edge of my mouth, and I wasn't the only one. It 7 was -- it was a practice. We all did it. 8 After reading that Helsinki report from 9 Finland, like I say, with polysulfide, It's the same 10 identical compound that we use in this country that's 11 used in Australia, England, Germany, all throughout the 12 rest of the world. It's all the same. If you would 13 take a sample from there, it's the same -- the same as 14 that. There is it is. Right there, one little piece, 15 and this is out of your schools here in New York, and 16 it's proof positive. 17 Again, you take these guys out there with 18 that saw, cutting that masonry, not only are we making 19 the silica dust, but we're throwing PCB into the air. 20 We're making them airborne. If that school is a half 21 mile down the street, I'm affecting where we are right 22 now. Just one guy on that saw because that's how small 23 and how respirable and how far those thing will carry. 24 It's amazing, truly amazing. 25 This -- I came here prepared and yet

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 77 1 underprepared. Just a few things that I heard, and I'd 2 like to comment about people that went before me. As I 3 said, I was retired, but I was in contact with my old 4 crew. I want to find out more about this caulking. My 5 old crew was working on an office building in Boston. 6 It was a large office building, not as large -- nearly 7 as large as the ones you have here, but it was 30 8 stories, salt-installed (ph) building. It's a Federal 9 building. I went and I saw my friends at lunchtime, and 10 I noticed that there was a few people up there in tie11 back suits. And I say "Hey, Rod, why are those people 12 up there?" He said, "Well, they're doing the abatement 13 from the caulking, but they're not doing a very good 14 job because as go by them, they miss portions that we 15 have to take care of." I said "Okay, I need a couple 16 of pieces of caulking." He said "It's all over the 17 ground under the rig." So I jumped the fence like I'm 18 so good at and went and got some samples. I got two 19 samples; one bronze that was around the windows, and 20 one white that was in the stone, and that's why -- that 21 caulking I did, you see is white, it's probably a 22 polysulfide because the problem they were having toward 23 the one was the polysulfide life where it was losing 24 its color because of the UV rays. So I'm just guessing 25 that that's a good -- good sample over here, good

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 78 1 possibility. 2 I got those samples. I cut them in half, the 3 white and the bronze. I sent them out to be looked at, 4 to be analysis -- to be analyzed. The caulking came 5 back 26,500 parts per million on PCBs, and they came 6 back zero with asbestos. So why were these people up 7 there as asbestos people taking out this caulking that 8 didn't have any asbestos in it? Caulking burns. You'd 9 think with asbestos it wouldn't burn. Caulking burns 10 like you've never seen anything burn before, and it has 11 a thick, acrid, smoke. As soon as you breathe it, you 12 choke. That's how acrid it is. That's why firefighters 13 aren't allowed to go in buildings without some sort of 14 an apparatus. Bad stuff. And we used to burn it on a 15 daily basis after mixing so many tens of hundreds of 16 these units -- well, not -- in a day maybe 10 or 15 17 units, but at the end of the day, the paddle get -- 18 would start to get hard because the caulking was set 19 up. So we'd put it in an empty can, wrap it in a -- 20 the paddle, in a rag, and put a dot of tolliwall (ph) 21 on it, just enough to get it to start to burn, and it 22 would burn off, and we'd put all this black stuff -- 23 you wouldn't believe it. It was a normal practice. So, 24 you know, we just infected ourselves and everyone 25 around us. So when I found out about the PCBs, I said

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 79 1 I want to make a campaign. First of all, I apologized 2 to every kid in every school that I ever caulked, and I 3 caulk a ton of them. I apologized to the kids in New 4 York when I took the samples over by Co- op City. I 5 apologized to the people who lived in the buildings 6 over there because they're going from a contaminated 7 building with PCBs into a contaminated school with 8 PCBs. Amazing. Talk about double dose. I went home 9 at night crap on my legs and on my clothes, and my kids 10 would throw their arms around me and "Nice to see 11 you're home, Daddy." I had that stuff all over me. 12 As far the -- I'm sorry. As far the -- that 13 was my water bottle. Something -- something always 14 happens like this. I apologize. I'm always 15 apologizing. Any waterproofer worth his salt if I was 16 told to go out and get -- "Get me a sample of 17 caulking." They'd go out and get me a sample of 18 caulking. They wouldn't get me a sample that had a 19 cohesive or adhesive failure in it. Very simply, I you 20 were to take a bit of caulking with a cohesive broke in 21 the middle or an adhesive either side of the masonry 22 failure and have it analyzed, there's a 90 percent 23 chance that you'll have asbestos in it, and it caused 24 simply by the air conditioning that you hear right now. 25 The air conditioning is pushing air through the

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 80 1 ceiling, down those cavity wall, behind the clock; and 2 if it finds a crack in that caulking, it's to go out 3 the caulking. The caulking because it's fractured it's 4 sticky, and it traps anything by from bugs to asbestos. 5 So it's very easy to find asbestos in caulking. What 6 I'm afraid of it that at some point in time in the near 7 future there's apt to be a stampede on removing 8 caulking because they're going to find asbestos in it. 9 As I say, the asbestos I remember putting into a 10 building as far as the caulking goes only went from 11 floor to floor. It was in the pipe chases. As a pipe 12 went through in one of these closets possibly, it went 13 through the next floor into the floor above, and that 14 opening space was caulked with a firesafing. It's very 15 expensive, and I certainly don't think for one second 16 that they're going to put 50,000 feet of caulking that 17 goes for like $19 a tube on the outside of a building. 18 It's not going to happen. There's no asbestos out 19 there, but it came up that way. It was brought up that 20 way because they're people who are smart enough to 21 realize how the stuff functions. You can't let 22 asbestos be abated and have it treated like PCBs. I 23 don't feel that -- that they're abated the same way. 24 As far as I know, PCBs have to be incinerated at over 25 2,000 degrees. Anything under that causes a dioxin gas.

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 81 1 I caused dioxin gas. That's what I apologized about to 2 the kids in the schools and the people in the building. 3 It wasn't just schools. It was a lot of buildings. We 4 started out -- when I first took the 24 samples in the 5 unrecognized source of PCBs contaminants with Harvard, 6 I took all those samples. It was mostly big buildings, 7 office buildings, colleges, but it wasn't going 8 anywhere. It fell on deaf ears. So what I did I 9 looked around, and I started closing down jobs. I was 10 a whistleblower if you will. I stopped windows from 11 being thrown in a dumpster at a Catholic memorial high 12 school in Lowell. I stopped a good sized building in 13 downtown Boston. They were just letting the caulking 14 fall on the ground, sweeping it up, and throw it in the 15 dumpster. I banged them on that, got it shut down. 16 Kim Teesler (ph) and Mary Ann Mollette (ph) were very 17 quick to do that because I proved to them that there 18 was a problem. 19 The other job I that I closed down or I had a 20 lot to do with was the student housing over at MIT. 21 That job stayed actively with people in it during its 22 abatement, and I really felt bad about that. They 23 should have got those students into hotels. The reason 24 why that one was so on my list is because there was a 25 big, toddler yard that was right adjacent to the

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 82 1 masonry. The masonry samples they're not very big. I 2 took a sample of the soil. I took a sample of the 3 caulking. The caulking was 36,000 parts per million, 4 and the sand vial as big as this one, not much. You 5 can make a nice little musical sound with it, 15 parts 6 per million 1240; 14 parts per million 1260. Talk 7 about being over the amount of PCBs in soil, this is 8 it. The first thing they did was tear out all the 9 dirt, that's all that there, backfilled everything. 10 Then they started with the building. It ended up 11 costing them $100 a foot. The reason why? It wasn't 12 just taking the product out of the joint. They 13 encapsulated the masonry because the building is slated 14 for removal. The building is slated to come down in 15 five years, so there three buildings that they spent so 16 much money on are going to be nonexistent in five 17 years. But because I blew the whistle, they wanted to 18 make everyone happy. 19 The other job -- I had gotten a little part20 time job in a glass company, and I was on the second 21 floor while they were putting -- I was a runner. I 22 went and got part for this glass company. I brought 23 some stock in, brought it up on the second floor where 24 the guys were working on this building that was 25 completely gutted on the inside, completely gutted.

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 83 1 There was nothing in there, everything was gone, and 2 what the company with was doing they were taking a 3 window and putting a new window into an opening that 4 had been removed as a mockup, so they were going to 5 show what the new windows were going to look like. And 6 as I was there, seven men come up the stairs dressed in 7 tie-back suits, and I'm telling you booties, hat, 8 goggles, respirators, the whole nine yard; and within 9 from me to that window, they started working. 10 And because of my background of hygienist and 11 the caulking issue that I was so well-read up on, I 12 went over and I asked who was the foreman, and I asked 13 him what was going on, "Why would you be working so 14 close with these other crew, these seven men that I'm 15 working with why -- how can you do that?" He said 16 "Well, we found trace amount of asbestos." 17 That's the key word: Trace amount. That really gets 18 me. And I said "Where?" And he showed me. There's a 19 seal that hold the glass in tight. He started pulling 20 that seal to loosen up the glass, and there was a bit 21 of dust coming out, and I explained to him all that was 22 when they put that seal in they applied a soapy 23 material to the rubber, and as the new seal went in and 24 pushed it in -- just like if you're at your service 25 station and you watch them change your tire, they put a

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 84 1 little soap on the rubber. It's slippery. But after 2 20 years, it dries; and when you pull it, hey, what 3 happens? You get a little dust. You can't tell me 4 there's asbestos in that. It's soap, but then I saw 5 him reach out the window and cut the caulking, and that 6 was it. And I said, Who's here? Who's here that I can 7 talk to? We have a fellow downstairs that's taking air 8 sample for asbestos. I went down, and I spoke to him. 9 He said, I take sample every hour on the hour. Well, 10 you know, I don't know, maybe I've been a long time out 11 of the school, but I remember having to weight those 12 little wafers that go in that machine. We send them 13 out and have them weighed for asbestos, but to tell me 14 that he was doing it on an hourly basis, I didn't think 15 that was possible. 16 I went back up stairs, and I look down and 17 the foreman said, George, look at this. I looked down, 18 and the fellow on the meter was talking to the 19 superintendent. I bailed. I had to leave. The 20 following day I'm on the -- on my way in, called the 21 foreman up to see if he needed anything. He said, Yes, 22 I need you not to come on the job. Okay. You can't -- 23 you can get out of the truck. You can open up the back 24 of the truck, but you can't go on the property." Well, 25 I'm not, you know, of course, I went on. I went on,

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 85 1 and I took a piece of caulking. I had it tested. Hot 2 for PCBs. Called Maryann Mollette. Shut it down. 3 Three months, three month -- I was -- I just couldn't 4 believe it. How can you start three months? You 5 talked about threats. I was threaten. I was threaten 6 by everybody. It's their livelihood. But you know, 7 there's a lot of people that walk around in that area 8 too, so I felt I did the right thing. I feel like I'm 9 doing the right thing now, and if there's any school 10 out there or any project out there, I'll go get a 11 sample for you. If they put me in jail, fine. "Call 12 channel 7." That what I told the - - the person over 13 at MIT who was in charge of their environmental people. 14 She wanted me in jail. I said "That's fine. Call the 15 news. Call channel 7. I have no problem with that." 16 Just to sum up, again, I'm -- I'm really 17 worried about the PCBs. If they're hot, it's a tough 18 issue. They kids are in schools. It's not going to 19 change. It's deteriorating. I can show you buildings 20 in Boston that have been made into research labs. One 21 of the biggest hits that I ever got myself was 126,000 22 parts per million, and believe it or not, that's a 23 building owned by Harvard University, the reproductive 24 biology building. What does that tell you? What kind 25 of samples do they have going in there with PCBs

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 86 1 floating around? 2 I also had a few of my coparts -- my, my 3 partners in crime come to my house, and I had a nurse 4 come from Harvard University, and they took blood 5 samples. The first time we ever did that. I would 6 have liked to have gotten more, but someone -- one of 7 the guys that came over mentioned something, and it 8 went right up the ladder the union, and that's a no-no. 9 There's all kinds of privacy laws, but no one says 10 anything about their kids having problems. We kind of 11 stick to ourselves. We don't mention things like that, 12 school problems or this problem or that problem or low 13 sperm count, guys who try to have kids and can't. This 14 is what PCB cause, and if I have to be a voice for a 15 lot of people, then that's what I'll be. I guess 16 that's it. 17 MR. SCHREIBER: Thank you very much. Thank 18 you again. Great. 19 Our next speaker is Gigi Gazon, New York City PCB 20 Free Schools Coalition. 21 MR. WEYMOUTH: (off mic) See, I'm a 22 construction worker. I'm sorry. That building, by the 23 way, what was gutted was (inaudible) three months -- 24 MS. GAZON: Okay. 25 MR. WEYMOUTH: -- it's rented by MIT

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 87 1 from (inaudible) PCBs, and they caused (inaudible). 2 That's why the big poohah (ph) on the building by the 3 way. We had nine buildings in that area, nine, right. 4 MR. SCHREIBER: Thanks again. Ms. Gazon. 5 MS. GAZON: Hi, good afternoon. How ya'll 6 holding up? Okay? I'm going to be brief, but good 7 afternoon. My name is Gigi Gazon, and I'm a community 8 organizer in the Environmental Justice Program at New 9 York Lawyers for the Public Interest. My colleague 10 Miranda Massey spoke earlier, explained a little bit 11 about who we are and what we do, so I'll refrain from 12 doing that, but I'm here today to provide a statement 13 on behalf of a coalition we work with called the New 14 York City PCB Schools Coalition, who are concerned in 15 particular with the proposed rulemaking as it relates 16 to PCB- contaminated caulk, which you've heard a lot 17 about today. The members of the coalition are 18 concerned citizen and parents who could not be here 19 today during business hours because of work or because 20 they're caring for their children or both in a lot of 21 cases. They're disappointed that the meetings were 22 scheduled during the workday and with such little 23 notice as to undermine public participation. 24 The members of the coalition, however, have a 25 high interest in this issue, and so today they have

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 88 1 asked me to read a statement prepared by Angelique 2 Kotar (ph) and Mike McCabe, who are members of the 3 coalition, and are parents of two daughters who attend 4 school in the Bronx as a matter of fact near Co-op City 5 that George mentioned earlier. 6 "To the distinguished members of this panel, 7 one of our daughters attends Public School 153, a 8 school that has been found to have very high levels of 9 PCB. We also represent a coalition of concerned 10 citizens who are working to have all PCB-contaminated 11 caulk removed from New York City public schools. Among 12 our members is a parent who sued the Department of 13 Education in an effort to get them to address this 14 issue in a responsible manner. She, like the rest of 15 us, is deeply concerned for the well-being of her 16 children and is alarmed by the fact that here children 17 attend a school in which such a severe toxin is 18 present. 19 Recently, the New York City Department of 20 Education entered into a settlement with the EPA to 21 conduct a pilot program at several New York City public 22 schools to study the PCB-exposure risk to students and 23 to come up with a remediation plan for the entire 24 city." 25 And I'll echo what's been said before that

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 89 1 while we consider it to be inadequate because they call 2 for air tests, and we would prefer that they test the 3 caulk. We do appreciate that steps are being taken at 4 least to admit that there is an issue and something 5 needs to be done about it. 6 And we're surprised and very concerned at 7 this time, especially on the heels of the settlement, 8 that the EPA would consider lowering or possibly 9 eliminating the protections of the current regulatory 10 threshold for PCB contaminated caulk. It is 11 scientifically undisputed that PCBs pose a significant 12 risk to human health, especially that of children, a 13 fact that has been regularly acknowledged by the EPA 14 itself. 15 PCBs were banned in 1978 as, quote, toxic and 16 persistent chemicals, end quote. Under the EPA's 17 current regulatory framework, PCBs at levels greater 18 than 50 ppm, and again, quote, presented unreasonable 19 risk to injury and health, end quote. And caulk 20 containing more than 50 ppm PCBs must be removed, 21 according to the EPA. So scientists, government 22 officials and society all know the risks associated 23 with exposure to PCBs, and why at this time would the 24 EPA consider lowering or eliminating the current level 25 of protections for PCB contaminated caulk.

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 90 1 The timing of the decision couldn't be more 2 suspect, and given that there's been no recent change 3 in the science around the issue, the members of this 4 coalition can't help but wonder if the EPA has economic 5 rather than scientific reasons for considering the 6 proposed action. Members of our community are already 7 exposed to many different toxins, pollution from 8 proximity to traffic clogged highways and contaminated 9 brown fields, in addition to other noxious threats from 10 industrial uses. 11 And we know that we speak for other coalition 12 members whose children attend schools containing PCB 13 contaminated caulk. And we ask you to avoid making any 14 changes to the current threshold of PCBs in caulk until 15 we have more information about the risks, and until all 16 the planned studies are completed. There are reports 17 released in fields almost daily documenting the harmful 18 health effects of chronic low-level exposure to PCBs. 19 The information contained in those reports 20 that PCBs disrupt the immune system, that they affect 21 our children's ability to learn, that they are known to 22 affect the reproductive system, and that they are known 23 carcinogen, has left many parents in our communities 24 frightened at the prospect that the EPA will eliminate 25 the current protections. Think for a moment about the

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 91 1 detrimental impact that these chemicals can have on the 2 bodies of developing children, and then rather than 3 considering the economic challenges of the present, we 4 urge you instead to consider the future cost to our 5 children. 6 By eliminating the protections, you will be 7 putting their long-term health and their quality of 8 life at risk. The New York City PCB Preschools 9 Coalition calls for the EPA to keep the current 10 protections as they relate to PCBs in caulk, and to 11 aggressively enforce the current regulations. The 12 health of our children is at stake, and any change that 13 would lead to the continued exposure to PCBs will put 14 all of our futures at risk. Sincerely, Michael McCabe 15 and Angelique Cotar (ph) on behalf of the New York City 16 Coalition for PCB Preschools. Thank you very much. 17 MR. SCHREIBER: Thank you. The next speaker 18 is Daniel Lefkowitz, private citizen. 19 MR. LEFKOWITZ: Can you hear me? Okay. I'm 20 just going to talk briefly about PCBs and my 21 relationship and my history with this whole issue. In 22 about 2004 or 2005 I read Bob -- Dr. Bob Herrig's study 23 up in Harvard where he took 24 samples, or actually 24 George took 24 samples and a third of them came back 25 contaminated. So at that time my sons -- I was living

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 92 1 in Yorktown Heights and my son was in the (inaudible) 2 elementary school, and was curious. 3 I said, well, my son's school was built in 4 1969 and the windows were removed about a year ago. So 5 could it -- could it have been contaminated with 6 caulking. So I called the region two and I was told go 7 around and find a piece of caulking, and that's what I 8 did. I walked around the school and there was caulking 9 all over the place. The contractors left the stuff on 10 the ground. I picked up a piece and I sampled it. It 11 came up -- I forgot the thousands of PPM, so I sent the 12 results over to the Westchester County Health 13 Department and they contacted the school and they told 14 the school go ahead and just pick up the rest of the 15 caulking. 16 So I said to the health department, what 17 about the soil. He said no problem with the soil. You 18 don't have to worry about it. So I didn't believe him. 19 So I went back. I grabbed some soil and it came out 20 280 ppm. New York State has a cleanup buffer, I believe 21 it's one part per million. So then all of a sudden the 22 health department came in. They started doing sampling 23 and they found the whole soil was contaminated. 24 They sampled the building and the caulking, 25 all over the school was contaminated, and so you figure

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 93 1 the EPA was involved, the health department of New York 2 State and sure enough they had to clean up the caulking 3 from the buildings, clean up the soil, and it was 4 estimated it was several hundred thousand dollars. And 5 -- and New York State said that they would kick in, 6 maybe to pay at least 50% of it, they would reimburse 7 the school. So from that point on I figured, well, you 8 know what, if it happened in my son's school, it's 9 happening everywhere else. 10 So I started to go around with George Rambis, 11 started sampling other schools and we found that there 12 were a lot of other schools that were contaminated. And 13 so I figured, well, the only way to get this, you know, 14 get this word out is to either go to the press, and I 15 was in the New York Times twice on this issue. I met 16 with Assemblyman DiNapoli at the time who is now a 17 state, I believe it's the controller. I met with him 18 and has office, with his personnel several times. We 19 met with the state health department. We met with the 20 state education department about this whole issue, and 21 that was kind of the thing that started getting the 22 ball rolling as far as getting New York State's 23 protocol and guidelines. 24 And so from that point on I created a 25 website, PCBinschools.org to get the word out to the

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 94 1 public and to the -- all the stakeholders, politicians, 2 the legislators, the school administrators and the 3 thing about my website is to get -- to make this whole 4 PCB issue mandatory. I want to get mandatory testing. 5 That's what's lacking in this whole thing. It's one 6 thing to know that if you find it in caulking and if 7 it's above 50 ppm, under the law you've got to remove 8 it because it's unauthorized use, but there is no -- 9 nothing in the law that states that you have to go and 10 test for it, and that's the major issue because no one 11 is going to test for it. 12 And that's why George and I go around and we 13 look at buildings. And that was one of the impetus for 14 the Daily News investigation. George and I went down 15 to a number of schools in the Bronx and we tested a 16 number of schools. We saw a number of schools were 17 hot. We contacted the Daily News, and from that point 18 on the Daily News did their investigative studies. So 19 what's the -- so what's the major issue here is that if 20 you look at the building across the street, you're 21 looking at thousands -- thousands of feet of stockpile 22 of caulking and possibly paint, and these are long-term 23 emitters of PCBs, and my contention is that this stuff, 24 there should be mandatory testing. 25 Maybe not so much in public buildings, but in

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 95 1 schools because that's where children are and they're 2 the most sensitive to this chemical, plus it's 3 mandatory that kids attend school, and they have a 4 right to know, and parents have a right to know whether 5 their children will even stand for being submitted or 6 being exposed to these chemicals. So as far as 7 rulemaking, I'm submitting to the EPA that you put in 8 your rulemaking mandatory testing for PCBs in schools 9 because this way we would have a database throughout 10 the whole United States. We would know how many 11 schools are affected by it, and the EPA should be 12 working with the CDC and also the department of health 13 to take blood (inaudible). I understand the EPA is an 14 environmental agency and they don't deal with blood, 15 and that's where the other governmental agencies like 16 the CDC will have to start, step in and do blood 17 (inaudible) because otherwise I understand that it's a 18 great step that the EPA and the Department of Education 19 during the study with the five schools, but we know 20 that's not enough and we need to do a cross section 21 throughout the whole United States, get a history of -- 22 get a history of children, the intake, and take blood 23 studies, do air studies, and that's the only way we're 24 ever going to make a final determination about, you 25 know, the situation -- the situation here in the United

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 96 1 States. 2 And if you look at this whole thing globally 3 you have with the Helsinki convention, where the whole 4 world is moving towards eliminating PCBs. And they're 5 using the 50 ppm. And my -- my recommendation, and I 6 strongly suggest that the EPA stick with the 50 parts - 7 - ppm's, or even reduce it, because if you reduce it, 8 now you're going to start to eliminate more stockpile 9 of contaminated material and I think that's it. 10 MR. SCHREIBER: Okay. Our next speaker is 11 Richard Barr, Chair of External Affairs Committee, 12 Parent Association, Bronx High School, School of 13 Science. 14 MR. BARR: Good afternoon. I'm speaking on 15 behalf of the executive board of the parents 16 association, the Bronx High School of Science, and we 17 have informed the administration of the school of what 18 I was going to come here to say, and they're okay with 19 it, but I'm speaking for the parents at this point. 20 Bronx Science is a school that was built during the 21 period in question, in 1950 to 1978. 22 It's got almost 3000 students and hundreds of 23 adults all moving around in close proximity within the 24 building. To the best of our information, it's never 25 been tested as to whether there were PCBs in the caulk.

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 97 1 It is our information that from the caulking used 2 during that period in New York City, some -- some 3 places will have it, some not. We don't know which 4 category our school is in. I mentioned to the 5 administration this hearing and was told, well, we had 6 the windows replaced 10 years ago, and I think that 7 that's interesting because in terms of what's not known 8 out there, here you have a school under the impression 9 that that -- if there is a problem, and we don't know 10 if there is or not, that that would have taken care of 11 it. 12 When testimony right here today from PS 53 in 13 Staten Island was that the replacement of the windows 14 increased the existing problem, and the testimony from 15 PS 199, and by the way, until this year, that building 16 in Manhattan had an elementary school on the lower two 17 floors and a middle school on the top floor, and my 18 daughter who is now at Bronx Science was in that middle 19 school until 2007, so during the course of this, and I 20 know well Linda Rosenthal, the assemblywoman who 21 submitted the bill in the state assembly in response to 22 what was found there, but we heard in the discussion 23 about PS 199 that an inadequate job of replacing the 24 windows and a subsequent remediation in the face of 25 that inadequate job, still left unacceptable levels of

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 98 1 PCBs around. So there's a lot out there that isn't 2 known about which schools had PCBs, which did not, and 3 which ones have problems with the PCB exposure and 4 which don't. 5 And the fact that the DOE has agreed with EPA 6 to test five schools, as other people have said, is the 7 tip of the iceberg. And our contention is that while 8 we don't know how many schools have a problem, and how 9 big the problem is, at minimum, the current standards 10 should be kept in place, certainly not relaxed. And we 11 also know that even if a good job was done, and if we 12 have PCBs and a good job was done in replacing those 13 windows, they might still exist in door frames. That 14 might still exist in fluorescent light fixtures. 15 So this is not the time when so little is 16 known about so many schools and whether they have a 17 problem or not to relax the standards. Now, I am going 18 to now speak for myself, and what I'm going to say 19 rather than for the whole body. And what I'm going to 20 say is speculative, but I also feel that not only does 21 the EPA need to push the New York City Department of 22 Education to test far more schools, but it may also 23 ultimately, if problems are found, it may need to hold 24 that agency's feet to the fire, and this is the 25 speculative part, but it's something that I find very

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 99 1 troubling and I'm going to mention it. 2 Love Canal was mentioned earlier. Now, I 3 worked in the state attorney general's office for 4 several years and I know that the two probably longest 5 lasting environmental issues in terms of cleanup that 6 our environmental protection bureau was dealing with 7 were Love Canal and trying to get the General Electric 8 company to clean up the PCBs that they had dumped into 9 the upper Hudson River. So some years ago I was 10 watching 60 Minutes and the then CEO of General 11 Electric, Jack Welch, was asked by the host, well, the 12 EPA is after you. The New York State Department of 13 Environmental Conservation is after you to clean them 14 up. Are you going to clean them up? His response was 15 bring me a glass of water laced with PCBs. I'll drink 16 it right in front of you right now. 17 So to my mind, this is a white-collar 18 criminal. Well, he left GE and later on Joe Klein 19 became chancellor of the New York City Department of 20 Education. Having been a bureau chief in the Justice 21 Department during part of the period when EPA was after 22 GE to do this cleanup, so he could not be unaware of 23 it, and yet when he chose to start a leadership academy 24 to train would-be principals for New York City public 25 schools, who did he put in charge of it, Jack Welch. So

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 100 1 again, this is speculative, but to me if this is an 2 indication of how seriously the DOE might take the 3 issue of PCBs and whether they're a problem or not, I 4 say the EPA has got to keep holding their feet to the 5 fire and can't count on them to do the right thing 6 should problems be detected, without pressure. So 7 thank you. 8 MR. SCHREIBER: Thanks. Our next speaker is 9 Maureen LaMar, New York Committee for Occupational 10 Safety and Health. 11 MS. LAMAR: Hi. I am the Associate Director 12 of the New York Committee of Occupational Safety and 13 Health or NYCOSH and today I'm presenting an 14 abbreviated -- I'm going to read. Forgive me for that, 15 but I'm going to read an abbreviated version of the 16 comments of David Newman, who is NYCOSH's industrial 17 hygienist. The unabridged version has been submitted 18 electronically and I have hard copies over there if 19 anybody needs one. NYCOSG appreciates this opportunity 20 to comment on EPA's advanced rulemaking notice. NYCOSH 21 works closely on environmental and occupational safety 22 and health issues with unions that represent teachers, 23 school maintenance workers and contractors, all of whom 24 are potentially exposed to PCB containing caulks and 25 paint. That's why I really appreciated your

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 101 1 presentation, George. 2 In addition, we are actively involved in 3 green initiatives, including working with -- working 4 with and providing occupational safety and health 5 training to workers involved in weatherization 6 projects. These workers are likely to disturb window 7 caulk, which may contain PCBs resulting in potential 8 occupational exposure and then potential contamination 9 of the habitable spaces in which they work. In 10 addition, NYCOSH has provided technical assistance to 11 New York City Department of Environmental Protection 12 regarding hazard assessment and remediation of PCB 13 caulk and transform PCBs and other contaminants at a 14 New York City wastewater treatment plant. 15 Our comments will be limited to the proposed 16 reassessment of PCB containing caulks and paints. The 17 EPA requests input on whether the use of PCBs at 18 concentrations of 50 ppm or greater in caulks currently 19 unauthorized should be authorized, and on whether the 20 50 ppm level that defines excluding PCB products, that 21 is excluding from regulation, to be changed. The only 22 reason the EPA gives for these possible revisions is 23 that the use of PCBs in caulk may be widespread and may 24 -- may be an undue burden for schools. 25 Many people have made this point, but let me

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 102 1 continue. NYCOSH is disturbed that possible changes to 2 environmental regulations appear to be driven solely by 3 economic factors. We are concerned that no reasons 4 protective of environmental or public health are cited. 5 While we acknowledge the reality of economic factors, 6 we believe there are currently no valid scientific 7 reasons for weakening or eliminating environmental 8 regulations pertaining to unauthorized uses of PCB 9 products and/or non-totally enclosed PCB building 10 materials. 11 This is a problem going last. All of this 12 has been said before. We agree with many of the 13 speakers. NYCOSH urges EPA not to revise PCB 14 regulations based solely or primarily on economic 15 factors. We object to regulatory revision in the 16 absence of science-based evidence that we need to do 17 so. When EPA began to address the issue of PCB caulk 18 in schools, the agency referenced 40 CFR 761.20 which 19 states, quote, no persons may use any PCB or any PCB 20 item regardless of concentration, in any manner, other 21 than in a totally enclosed manner unless authorized 22 under the 761.30. 23 Total enclosed manner means any manner that 24 will ensure no exposure of human beings or the 25 environment to any concentration of PCBs. And possibly

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 103 1 its first public statement on PCB caulk in schools, EPA 2 wrote in 2005, the use of PCBs in caulking has never 3 been authorized by the EPA. The placement of such 4 materials predates the enactment of the toxic 5 substances control act and its use today is not 6 authorized. Because it is illegal and a potential for 7 exposure may be significant, PCB containing caulk must 8 be removed upon discovery. EPA reiterated its position 9 in 2007. Any non-totally enclosed use not specifically 10 authorized under 761.30 is prohibited. The use of PCBs 11 in caulk is not an authorized use and thus is a 12 violation of section CE of Testa (ph). Yet in 2009 EPA 13 retreated from its -- retreated, excuse me, retreated 14 from its protective stance, quote, caulk that contains 15 PCBs at greater than 50 ppm is not authorized for 16 continued use and must be removed. 17 You are not required to remove caulk 18 containing PCB levels at levels below 50 ppm. Excluding 19 PCB products, that is products excluded from 20 regulation, are defined as, quote, PCB materials which 21 appear at concentrations less than 50 ppm. However, 22 all examples of excluded PCB products listed in 761.3 23 are products that have become contaminated with PCBs, 24 not products manufactured with PCBs as intentional 25 ingredients. Because some caulks and paints were

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 104 1 manufactured with the deliberate inclusion of PCBs for 2 their plasticizing properties, we believe they should 3 not be considered excluded products. That is they 4 should not be excluded from regulation. NYCOSH urges 5 EPA to revert to its original position that in place 6 PCB caulks, regardless of concentration, should be 7 considered unauthorized. 8 With regard to health risks from exposure to 9 PCB caulks, EPA has given insufficient consideration to 10 the populations with potentially the highest exposures 11 and risks, the maintenance workers and contractors who 12 maintain and replace PCB building materials and the 13 winterization workers who retrofit older buildings to 14 increase energy efficiency under federal stimulus 15 programs. 16 These disturbance activities could 17 significantly accelerate the release of PCBs into the 18 air where they are available for inadvertent inhalation 19 as well as to (inaudible) them throughout the 20 environment. Reliance on occupational standards may 21 not be adequately protective of workers engaged in 22 disturbance of PCB building materials. These standards 23 in general are promulgated for application to 24 industrial workplaces and are intended to protect 25 workers who are trained to be fully aware of the

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 105 1 hazards of the occupational environment who may have 2 specific training in and access to respirators and/or 3 protective clothing and who may actively participate in 4 medical monitoring programs. 5 Our experience is that employers of school 6 maintenance workers and contractors, and the 7 winterization workers do not conduct PCB focus job 8 hazard exposure assessments and do not provide training 9 on PCB hazards, safe work practices and use of personal 10 protective equipment. Given that OSHA has no airborne 11 permissible exposure limits and that NIOSH recommended 12 limits are unenforceable, and would provide only half 13 as much protection as EPA's public health level for 14 adults, it is essential that EPA consider occupational 15 exposure and occupational health as key criteria as it 16 evaluates whether to revise the regulations pertaining 17 to PCB building materials. 18 EPA must focus on the work population, the 19 work tasks most likely to have the greatest 20 opportunities for exposure, risk and substance release. 21 Protection of the most exposed workers by eliminating 22 or reducing the introduction of PCB contaminants into 23 the -- into the indoor environment may be the most 24 effective method for mitigating other human and 25 environmental exposures. In this sense, the most

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 106 1 exposed workers serve as the canaries for the public 2 health of the community at large. Such an approach is 3 not unusual. 4 EPA's managing asbestos in place has 5 developed and maintained a building asbestos operations 6 and maintenance program utilizes precisely this 7 approach, relying on protection of workers to protect - 8 - excuse me, to protect the public health. In 9 conclusion, NYCOSH urges EPA not to revise regulation 10 for PCBs in caulks and other non-totally enclosed, non11 authorized PCB building materials based solely or 12 primarily on economic factors. We object to regulatory 13 revision in the absence of science-based evidence of a 14 need to do so. NYCOSH urges EPA to revert to its 15 original position that in-place PCB caulks, regardless 16 of concentration, should be considered unauthorized. 17 NYCOSH urges EPA to consider worker exposure 18 scenarios as it assesses whether to revise regulations 19 pertaining to PCB caulks. NYCOSH urges EPA to adopt 20 guidance for comprehensive written O and M programs for 21 in-place PCB building materials. The guidance should 22 be similar to the agency's guides for asbestos O and M 23 programs, and should include, one, sampling of in-place 24 PCB caulks to determine concentration. Two, labeling 25 of in-place PCB caulks. Three, establishment of

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 107 1 science- based action and levels of procedures for 2 removal of PCB building materials. Four, regular area 3 and personal sampling. Five, regular visual inspection 4 of PCB building materials. Six, record-keeping. Seven, 5 training and engineering and administrative controls, 6 safe work practices, and appropriate use of personal 7 protective equipment. Eight, where appropriate 8 training in and provision of proper respirators as per 9 the OSHA respiratory protection standard and last, a 10 program to inform workers, contractors and building 11 occupants where PCB materials are located and to notify 12 them of planned, ongoing disturbance activities. Thank 13 you for this opportunity to present the comments. 14 MR. SCHREIBER: Is Mark Drozdov present? 15 Mark, you're next. Mark is the past president of the 16 American Industrial Hygiene Association. 17 MR. DROZDOV: Good afternoon everybody. I'm 18 here today to speak on behalf of the members of the 19 Industrial Hygiene Association of Metro New York. As a 20 past president of the (inaudible) shelter and along 21 with me is Cassandra Ballinking (ph), and we simply in 22 reviewing the recent documentation wanted to ask a 23 couple of questions on behalf of the membership and the 24 industrial hygienists that we represent. You know, in 25 the course of our daily routine we deal with a lot of

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 108 1 different hazards, and above any hazards is what we do. 2 And we also look at work practices and we're 3 concerned about worker protection, and in reviewing the 4 available documentation and doing the research, we just 5 at times are struggling to reach to other regulations, 6 aside from PCBs, to do our work. Specifically, the 7 awareness training and the training that should be done 8 in anybody working with any hazardous materials. We 9 are wondering if the EPA is considering any kind of 10 training curriculum to recommend, and as well as 11 accessible guidance for what has already been mentioned 12 here for testing and monitor analysis. And the one 13 thing that, you know, Cassandra and I, in dealing with 14 our customers and our, you know, cases, we found 15 deficiencies of studies of showing conclusive evidence 16 of respiratory problems associated in being exposed to 17 PCBs. So those are just a few items that we're going 18 to bring to the surface as part of our American 19 Industrial Hygienist Association, Metro New York 20 chapter. Thank you. 21 MR. KELLOGG: Good afternoon. I 22 have a different story to tell, completely different. 23 My name is Chuck Kellogg. I am the owner of a fourth24 generation business in Waterbury, Connecticut. My 25 daughter is executive vice president and will take it

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 109 1 over, and so it's a long time successful business. 2 In June of 2008, there was a big wind storm 3 in a property right behind our property, not on our 4 property. It came down on our property, landed on the 5 roof, and you know what happened, it spilled PCBs. 6 Connecticut Light and Power reacted very quickly, came 7 and cleaned it up as best they could. The EPA came in. 8 What they found in addition was that this building, 9 which was built in 1954, had never been painted again, 10 was painted in 1954 with a PCB paint, which was very 11 common in those days inside and out. Subsequently over 12 the years, the inside was painted and so forth -- but 13 the outside -- this is in a very industrial area. 14 There's no families around, and they never even painted 15 it. 16 Now we don't have any children or women 17 working there. There's never been anybody who's been 18 sick. We've had the air tested. It's fine. We did it 19 of course because EPA was involved. We had to respond, 20 which we have, so I'm just giving you a summary. There 21 were certainly in the wall, the building, excessive 22 PCBs because it's had never -- never been treated; very 23 high level; 4,000 to $30,000 ppm in some part. 24 So the question was that we had written -- 25 there's been no -- no damage, nothing ever been hurt,

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 110 1 no one ever -- we've had people working there for 50 2 years, never any problems. How to respond to that was 3 the question we had to do. I'm not going to give you 4 all the -- all the gory details. In effect, it's a 5 nonuse for a nonliquid PCB. Of course, we know that. 6 So what did we do? 7 Well, as (inaudible) say he just knocked the 8 building down. That's obviously what cost over $1 9 million. It would put 10 people out of work. It would 10 disrupt our business, and it doesn't make -- it doesn't 11 make any great sense to us. I'm just going to leave 12 give you a summarize. 13 We believe that the EPA should authorize 14 continued use of nonliquid PCBs in situations such as 15 ours where it could be demonstrated that such use will 16 not pose an unreasonable risk of health or the 17 environment. We are a heavily developed industrial 18 setting, and so we have proposed that we clean up 19 whatever fell on the ground. We would want to -- 20 propose removing loose, degraded paint from exposed 21 exterior and interior walls; and following removal of 22 loose, degraded paint, we're proposing to encapsulate 23 these surfaces with two solid-resistance and water24 repellent coatings of contrasting colors. We propose 25 inspection monitoring and maintenance, plus to be

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 111 1 maintained to ensure the further postmitigation 2 condition will continue, not to present unreasonable 3 risk of injury to other people. 4 I'm just telling you there are some 5 conditions under which nonliquid PCB in certain uses -- 6 I'd say it shouldn't be promoted, but is should be if 7 handled correctly not go out to destroy a business 8 that's been in business for 150 years, what this would 9 do. So I'm -- by the way, this is where -- we are 10 submitting this Region 1 because that's where it 11 involves. 12 And just a couple of points. EPA has 13 indicated that TSCA regulations do not currently allow 14 for continued use of TSCA-regulated nonliquid PCBs, 15 which we understand, such as paint or caulk. This is 16 not caulk. We understand that PCB has proposed to 17 authorized such continued use in its December 1994 18 proposed rulemaking where EPA indicated that premature 19 removal of media containing PCBs could only be achieved 20 with great difficulty and enormous expense given the 21 extraordinary effort that are required to removed PCBs. 22 The conditions proposed by EPA for continued use of 23 these items' removal upon evidence of deterioration on 24 insulation or release control or encapsulation would 25 ensure no unreasonable risk from exposure to PCB. This

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 112 1 was in 1994. 2 In 1998, EPA deferred final regulatory action 3 on use of authorization for nonliquid PCBs. EPA 4 indicated that it intended to address this issue in 5 further rulemaking but needed more time and information 6 to evaluate the potential risk of exposure from PCBs 7 that might be associated with such existing nonliquid 8 PCBs. 9 In the fall of 2009, EPA published some 10 useful documents addressing nonliquid PCBs in caulk and 11 acknowledged its understanding, unfortunately, of high 12 levels of are of PCBs are present in many building and 13 facilities constructed prior to the PCB ban including 14 most recently some schools. 15 EPA Administrator Jackson also state "We are 16 concerned about potential risk associated with exposure 17 to these PCB. We've recommended a practical, common 18 sense step to reduce this exposure as we improve our 19 understanding of the science." EPA continued to 20 recognized that resources are sometimes not available 21 to immediately remove all nonliquid PCBs and that 22 interim methods are sometimes need to reduce human 23 exposure to PCB during the time before such nonliquid 24 PCBs are removed. With this new guidance, it's 25 applicable to nonliquid PCBs in schools where small

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 113 1 children is not explicitly pertinent to nonliquid PCBs, 2 and points to industrial facilities such as ours. And 3 as many of you know, there is a lot of the paints that 4 are involved in Navy ships and nuclear plants and so 5 on. 6 There are other points of view where 7 nonliquid PCBs can be contained and remediated without 8 destroying businesses. Thank you. 9 (Applause) 10 MR. SCHREIBER: So that concludes the 11 preregistered speakers list. If there is anyone who 12 did not have a chance to talk yet but wanted to make a 13 comment, they are invited now. Otherwise, unless 14 anyone else from -- would like to make a comment, then 15 I guess we'll adjourn. Maria. Thank you. 16 17 * * * * * 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 114 1 CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF NEW YORK ) 3 )ss. 4 COUNTY OF NEW YORK) 5 I, ELIZABETH WILLESKI, a Registered Professional 6 Reporter and Notary Public within and for the State of 7 New York, do hereby certify: 8 That I am not related to any of the parties to 9 this action by blood or marriage and that I am in no 10 way interested in the outcome of this matter. 11 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand 12 this ___ day of _____________ 2010. 13 14 _________________ 15 ELIZABETH A. WILLESKI 16 My commission expires: February 27, 2014 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 115 1 I N D E X 2 3 SPEAKER PAGE 4 5 Dan Craft 4 6 Tom Simons 6 7 Jim Roewer 10 8 Mary Davis 18 9 Aurelia Greene 26 10 Jonathan Davis 31 11 Valerie Watnick 37 12 Miranda Massey 41 13 Patricia Donegan 46 14 Ann Casey 60 15 George Weymouth 71 16 Gigi Gazon 86 17 Daniel Lefkowitz 91 18 Richard Barr 96 19 Maureen LaMar 100 20 Mark Drozdov 107 21 Charles Kellogg 108 22 23 * * * * * 24 25

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 27:24 30:12 32:4,7,12 33:13 34:24 36:4,22 38:8,10,25 39:5 40:3 42:14,19 43:10,16 56:24 61:16 64:8 66:10,13,23 67:5 69:9,13 89:18,20 94:7 96:5,6 101:18,20 103:15,18,21 110:1 50% 93:6 50,000 71:21 80:16 500 25:4,7 39:5 64:10 51 43:17 53 46:20 58:20 97:12 560 2:3 6 6 5:15 115:6 60 51:19 99:10 115:14 62 21:22 6E 8:2,11 6th 5:8 7 7 1:9 85:12,15 70 69:8 703)312-7831 2:4 70s 7:17 43:4 73:5 71 115:15 761.20 102:18 761.3 103:22 761.30 102:22 103:10 79,100 57:15 7th 4:16 5:4,13 27:19 8 80 51:19 800 51:17 84 8:14 86 115:16 9 9 64:25 90 11:6 56:10,14,15 79:22 900 63:1 67:6 90s 61:18 72:4 91 115:17 96 115:18 96,000 21:15 994 55:14 A A-7556(a 34:25 abated 80:22,23 abatement77:12 81:22 abbreviated 100:14,15 ABC 54:22 abdication 36:13 ability67:10 90:21 able20:18 57:9,16,17 66:20 abnormalities 43:25 absence102:16 106:13 absolutely

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29:25 104:21 adhere 75:12,17 adhesive79:19,21 adjacent 81:25 adjourn 113:15

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### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010 Page 19

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### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010 Page 20

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### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010 Page 22

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### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010 Page 23

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### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010 Page 24

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### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010 Page 25

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### Capital Reporting Company EPA Meeting 05-04-2010 Page 27

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