### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1**  **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS FOR COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL FANS AND BLOWERS** 

**+ + + + + PUBLIC MEETING** 

**+ + + + + THURSDAY**  **FEBRUARY 21, 2013 + + + + +**  **The Public Meeting met in Room 8E-089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W.,**  **Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, Meeting Facilitator, presiding.** 

**PRESENT: DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Power**  **Solutions, Inc. JOHN CYMBALSKY, Department of Energy**  **BETSY KOHL, Department of Energy CHARLES LLENZA, Department of Energy** 

**ALSO PRESENT: KARIM AMRANE, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and**  **Refrigeration Institute GOPAL BANDYOPADHYAY, Pacific Northwest**  **National Laboratory ROBERT BOTELER, Principal Confluence Energy,**  **LLC DONALD BRUNDAGE, Southern Company**  **MARK BUBLITZ, New York Blower Company**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2**  **ANDREW deLASKI, Appliance Standards Awareness Project**  **PAUL DOPPEL, Mitsubishi Electric JORDAN DORIA, Ingersoll Rand**  **GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor Owned Utilities**  **AARON GOTHAM, Greenheck Fan Corporation DAN HARTLEIN, Twin City Fan**  **ARMIN HAUER, ebm-papst, Inc. MICHAEL IVANOVICH, AMCA International**  **SANAEE IYAMA, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory**  **SAMUEL JASINSKI, Navigant Consulting CHARLES KIM, Southern California Edison**  **Company TIM KUSKI, Greenheck Fan Corporation**  **CHRISTOPHER LAU, Navigant Consulting ALEX LEKOV, Lawrence Berkeley National**  **Laboratory ETHAN ROGERS, American Council for an**  **Energy-Efficient Economy STEVE ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute**  **ANIRUDDH ROY, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute**  **ZIKA SREJOVIC, Twin City Fan WADE SMITH, Air Movement and Control**  **Association LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency**  **Alliance MARK STEVENS, Air Movement and Control**  **Association DANIEL TROMBLEY, American Council for an**  **Energy-Efficient Economy GREG WAGNER, Morrison Products, Inc.**  **MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense Council**  **DETLEF WESTPHALEN, Navigant Consulting DAVID WINIARSKI, Pacific Northwest National**  **Laboratory DAVID WINNINGHAM, Allied Air Enterprises** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3**  **TABLE OF CONTENTS PAGE**  **Welcome and Introductions, 4 Opening Remarks**  **Introduction and Rulemaking 30 Process Overview**  **Authority, Definitions, and 53 Regulatory Options**  **Regulatory Regimes 96 Test Procedure and Efficiency 146**  **Metrics Market and Technology Assessment 195**  **and Screening Analysis Engineering Analysis 246**  **Markups Analysis: Energy Use 297 Analysis**  **Life-Cycle Costs and Payback 309 Period Analysis**  **Shipments Analysis and National 330 Impact Analysis**  **Preliminary Manufacturer Impact 333 Analysis**  **NOPR Analysis 340 Next Steps and Closing Remarks 351** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  

### 2 **(9:02 a.m.)** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Good** 

### 4 **morning, everyone, and welcome. This is the** 

### 5 **U.S. Department of Energy's public meeting on** 

### 6 **energy conservation standards for commercial** 

### 7 **and industrial fans.** 

### 8 **Today is Thursday, February 21,** 

### 9 **2013, here at the Forrestal Building, the U.S.** 

### 10 **Department of Energy.** 

### 11 **So glad you could join us this** 

### 12 **morning. My name is Doug Brookman from Public** 

### 13 **Solutions in Baltimore. I'll be facilitating** 

### 14 **the meeting today.** 

### 15 **We are going to start off this** 

### 16 **morning with welcoming remarks from Charles** 

### 17 **Llenza.** 

### 18 **MR. LLENZA: I welcome you to the** 

### 19 **framework meeting for commercial, industrial,** 

### 20 **and -- commercial and industrial fans and** 

### 21 **blowers. And this is our first meeting** 

### 22 **kicking off the rulemaking here at the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5**  **1 Department of Energy.**  

### 2 **So it is -- it won't be as long as** 

### 3 **yesterday's pump meeting, hopefully, but we** 

### 4 **still have a considerable amount of slides to** 

### 5 **cover. And so let's get on with the --** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. LLENZA: -- meeting.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: It's our** 

### 9 **tradition to start with introductions. I'll** 

### 10 **start to my immediate left. Please say your** 

### 11 **name and organizational affiliation. It also** 

### 12 **gives you a chance to get used to turning** 

### 13 **these microphones on and off. Please.** 

### 14 **MR. KUSKI: My name is Tim Kuski.** 

### 15 **I'm with Greenheck Fan, and I'm here** 

### 16 **representing AMCA.** 

### 17 **MR. HARTLEIN: My name is Dan** 

### 18 **Hartlein. I'm with Twin City Fan Companies,** 

### 19 **Limited, also representing AMCA.** 

### 20 **MR. STEVENS: I'm Mark Stevens.** 

### 21 **I'm with Air Movement and Control Association,** 

### 22 **AMCA.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1 MR. BUBLITZ: Good morning. Mark**  

### 2 **Bublitz with the New York Blower Company, also** 

### 3 **representing AMCA.** 

### 4 **MR. IVANOVICH: Michael Ivanovich** 

### 5 **with AMCA International.** 

### 6 **MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler with** 

### 7 **Confluence Energy, and I'm helping AMCA.** 

### 8 **MR. deLASKI: Andrew deLaski with** 

### 9 **the Appliance Standards Awareness Project.** 

### 10 **MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom** 

### 11 **representing the California Investor Owned** 

### 12 **Utilities, which are PG&E, Southern California** 

### 13 **Edison, San Diego Gas & Electric, and the** 

### 14 **Southern California Gas Company.** 

### 15 **MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, National** 

### 16 **Resources Defense Council.** 

### 17 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 18 **Edison Electric Institute.** 

### 19 **MR. WINNINGHAM: Dave Winningham,** 

### 20 **Allied Air Enterprises.** 

### 21 **MR. ROGERS: Ethan Rogers, American** 

### 22 **Council for an Energy Efficient Economy.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, Department**  

### 2 **of Energy, General Counsel's Office.** 

### 3 **MR. LLENZA: Charles Llenza,** 

### 4 **Project Manager for the Department of Energy** 

### 5 **on this rulemaking.** 

### 6 **MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky,** 

### 7 **Project Manager for Appliance Standards and** 

### 8 **Building Codes.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 10 **Detlef, please stand up.** 

### 11 **MR. WESTPHALEN: Detlef Westphalen,** 

### 12 **Navigant Consulting.** 

### 13 **MR. JASINSKI: Sam Jasinski,** 

### 14 **Navigant Consulting.** 

### 15 **MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence** 

### 16 **Berkeley National Laboratory.** 

### 17 **MS. IYAMA: Sanaee Iyama, Lawrence** 

### 18 **Berkeley National Lab.** 

### 19 **MR. BANDYOPADHYAY: Gopal** 

### 20 **Bandyopadhyay, Pacific Northwest National** 

### 21 **Laboratory.** 

### 22 **MR. WINIARSKI: I'm David**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1 Winiarski, Pacific Northwest National Lab.**  

### 2 **(Off-mic introductions.)** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Did we miss** 

### 4 **anyone?** 

### 5 **(No response.)** 

### 6 **Okay. And those of you that are** 

### 7 **joining us via the web, welcome. We're glad** 

### 8 **to have you with us as well.** 

### 9 **Each of you -- everyone I believe** 

### 10 **received a packet of information as you** 

### 11 **checked in this morning. I'm going to do a** 

### 12 **very brief agenda review.** 

### 13 **We have already had a brief welcome** 

### 14 **from Charles and introductions. Immediately** 

### 15 **following this agenda review, there is an** 

### 16 **opportunity for anybody that wishes to do so** 

### 17 **to make brief summary remarks -- brief summary** 

### 18 **remarks -- surrounding issues that are** 

### 19 **important to you that you would like to** 

### 20 **emphasize here at the outset.** 

### 21 **There is a lot of content that is** 

### 22 **contained in the packet. These PowerPoint**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1 slides, which will be the basis for both**  

### 2 **presentation, review, and comment as the day** 

### 3 **goes on, that is the place to really** 

### 4 **concentrate and focus your comment. However,** 

### 5 **we do want to provide an opportunity to raise** 

### 6 **issues here at the outset.** 

### 7 **Immediately following that opening** 

### 8 **statement segment, we will have an** 

### 9 **introduction and rulemaking process overview;** 

### 10 **and following that, authority, definitions,** 

### 11 **and regulatory options. We will take a break** 

### 12 **mid-morning, around about 10:30 or so.** 

### 13 **Following the presentation and** 

### 14 **discussion on regulatory regimes, and then** 

### 15 **test procedures and efficiency metrics, and** 

### 16 **then market and technology assessment and** 

### 17 **screening analysis. We will take lunch** 

### 18 **midday, around about 12:00 or 12:30 or so,** 

### 19 **whenever we get there.** 

### 20 **And then, when we return from** 

### 21 **lunch, engineering analysis, markups analysis,** 

### 22 **energy use analysis, life-cycle costs and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 payback period analysis. We will take a break**  

### 2 **mid-afternoon, whenever it's appropriate.** 

### 3 **And then, following the break,** 

### 4 **shipments analysis, national impact analysis,** 

### 5 **preliminary manufacturer impact analysis, NOPR** 

### 6 **analyses, and then, finally, at the end of the** 

### 7 **day, some next steps and another opportunity** 

### 8 **for you to raise issues that you don't think** 

### 9 **have been adequately covered.** 

### 10 **You will have two opportunities in** 

### 11 **addition to your comment ongoing during the** 

### 12 **day itself. Okay. So let's make sure you** 

### 13 **have your opportunity to present the stuff** 

### 14 **that is important to you.** 

### 15 **Questions and comments about the** 

### 16 **agenda? I see -- I see none at this point.** 

### 17 **MR. LLENZA: I have one comment.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 19 **MR. LLENZA: The schedule in here** 

### 20 **is incorrect. There is another section before** 

### 21 **the test procedures and efficiency metrics,** 

### 22 **which has to do with the -- what's that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 section called? Regulatory regimes. That's**  

### 2 **correct. So this went to production early, so** 

### 3 **we couldn't -- I couldn't make the correction.** 

### 4 **I just want to make a pen-and-ink correction** 

### 5 **at this point.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Well,** 

### 7 **so then, if you will pen the correction for** 

### 8 **me --** 

### 9 **MR. LLENZA: That's correct. In** 

### 10 **the handout it's correct. In the presentation** 

### 11 **it has not been updated.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Great.** 

### 13 **Thank you. That's helpful. Okay. And so,** 

### 14 **also, I would ask for your consideration --** 

### 15 **many of you were here yesterday, and many of** 

### 16 **you have participated in these meetings** 

### 17 **previously. If you would each speak one at a** 

### 18 **time, please say your name for the record.** 

### 19 **You'll have to turn the microphone on and off** 

### 20 **as you have already gotten used to.** 

### 21 **If you could keep -- as you say** 

### 22 **your name for the record, it is important**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 because there will be a complete transcript of**  

### 2 **this meeting, and that will be made available** 

### 3 **to you.** 

### 4 **Keep the focus here. Please turn** 

### 5 **your cell phones on silent mode; limit sidebar** 

### 6 **conversations. If you could try to be** 

### 7 **concise, there is a lot to be said here. We** 

### 8 **need to share the air time.** 

### 9 **And webinar participants, let me** 

### 10 **welcome you especially. The Department of** 

### 11 **Energy is trying hard to make these meetings** 

### 12 **accessible to folks via the web. If you would** 

### 13 **please keep your telephone on mute, and using** 

### 14 **your software, if you wish -- you should raise** 

### 15 **your hand if you wish to ask a question or** 

### 16 **comment, and then we will fit you into the** 

### 17 **conversation as best we can, and you should be** 

### 18 **miked live into this meeting room right here** 

### 19 **at the Forrestal Building. At least that's** 

### 20 **the way it has been working in the past.** 

### 21 **So that is the preliminary stuff.** 

### 22 **Let's start with brief summary remarks about**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 key issues and concerns from anybody that**  

### 2 **wishes to do so. Who would like to start?** 

### 3 **Would you like to start, Michael?** 

### 4 **MR. IVANOVICH: Yes, sir. This is** 

### 5 **AMCA's first opportunity to testify in a** 

### 6 **public hearing, so thank you very much for** 

### 7 **that opportunity.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Please say** 

### 9 **your name for the record.** 

### 10 **MR. IVANOVICH: Michael Ivanovich,** 

### 11 **Director of Strategic Energy Initiatives with** 

### 12 **AMCA International. And on behalf of AMCA** 

### 13 **International and its members, I'd like to** 

### 14 **thank DOE for the opportunity to share our** 

### 15 **ideas on DOE's fan and blower framework** 

### 16 **document.** 

### 17 **AMCA International is a not-for** 

### 18 **profit international association on air system** 

### 19 **equipment manufacturers, primarily fans,** 

### 20 **louvers, dampers, and air curtains used in** 

### 21 **residential and commercial buildings and** 

### 22 **industrial and utility processes. AMCA was**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 founded in 1917 and now has 306 members. Of**  

### 2 **these, 125 member companies manufacture fans** 

### 3 **for sale in the United States. And of these,** 

### 4 **all but seven are located in North America.** 

### 5 **Approximately 80 percent of AMCA** 

### 6 **members are small firms, which have annual** 

### 7 **revenues under $10 million, and 97 percent** 

### 8 **have annual revenues under $50 million.** 

### 9 **AMCA's mission is to promote the health,** 

### 10 **growth, and integrity of our industry,** 

### 11 **consistent with the public interest.** 

### 12 **Commitment to our mission is** 

### 13 **evidenced through developing and maintaining** 

### 14 **foundational ANSI-accredited test standards,** 

### 15 **an international certified ratings program, a** 

### 16 **world-class laboratory, and our own** 

### 17 **international laboratory accreditation** 

### 18 **program.** 

### 19 **In keeping with our mission, AMCA** 

### 20 **responded to the Notice of Proposed** 

### 21 **Determination published in June 2011 that we** 

### 22 **concur DOE has the authority to regulate**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 commercial and industrial fans, and that we**  

### 2 **would like to collaborate in the rulemaking.** 

### 3 **Our position is to work with DOE on** 

### 4 **a fan -- fan regulation is consistent with our** 

### 5 **leadership in energy efficient fan systems.** 

### 6 **In 2010, AMCA published a standard, ANSI AMCA** 

### 7 **205, for rating the efficiency of a fan. And,** 

### 8 **in 2011, we championed the insertion of a fan** 

### 9 **efficiency requirement based on AMCA 205 and** 

### 10 **to the 2012 International Green Construction** 

### 11 **Code.** 

### 12 **In 2012, we led the establishment** 

### 13 **of a fan efficiency requirement based on AMCA** 

### 14 **205 for ASHRAE 90.1 2013.** 

### 15 **We are currently co-sponsoring a** 

### 16 **code change proposal to the 2015 International** 

### 17 **Energy Conservation Code that also inserts a** 

### 18 **fan efficiency requirement, and AMCA is** 

### 19 **developing a continuous maintenance proposal** 

### 20 **for ASHRAE 189.1, the high performance green** 

### 21 **construction standard. All of these efforts** 

### 22 **amount to years of consensus-building and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 public peer review.**  

### 2 **AMCA's contribution on the DOE** 

### 3 **rulemaking extends to working with advocates** 

### 4 **on a joint proposal to DOE which could inform** 

### 5 **them of what a fan efficiency regulation could** 

### 6 **look like, and this includes working closely** 

### 7 **with ACEEE, ASAP, and the National Resources** 

### 8 **Defense Council, and other advocates.** 

### 9 **But despite the considerable talent** 

### 10 **available, this regulation won't be easy.** 

### 11 **AMCA and its members believe that caution is** 

### 12 **needed. Fans of commercial and industrial** 

### 13 **scale are extremely complex. There are many** 

### 14 **types of fans on the market to meet the** 

### 15 **diverse needs of fan applications, and the** 

### 16 **behavior of fans is highly sensitive to proper** 

### 17 **sizing and selection practice, as well as** 

### 18 **installation and operation. There are many** 

### 19 **opportunities for unintended consequences.** 

### 20 **AMCA has reviewed -- okay. So,** 

### 21 **consequently, AMCA's fan efficiency standard** 

### 22 **not only defines how to rate a fan's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 efficiency; it also requires that fans be**  

### 2 **sized and selected to operate within 15** 

### 3 **percentage points of their peak efficiency.** 

### 4 **In other words, the AMCA 205** 

### 5 **standard seeks to impact the design community,** 

### 6 **not just the manufacturing community. And all** 

### 7 **current and proposed codes and standards for** 

### 8 **the fan efficiency language written around** 

### 9 **AMCA 205 adopts the sizing and selection** 

### 10 **requirement.** 

### 11 **AMCA has reviewed the framework** 

### 12 **document in some detail and commends the** 

### 13 **considerable effort and talent that went into** 

### 14 **it. We do have questions and proposed changes** 

### 15 **about the scope, equipment classes, and** 

### 16 **efficiency metrics.** 

### 17 **In this presented framework, we** 

### 18 **found areas where potential energy savings can** 

### 19 **be easily compromised by conventional** 

### 20 **practice, and we also found that there will be** 

### 21 **areas where there could be considerable undue** 

### 22 **regulatory burden on small businesses, and we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 look forward to talking to you about these**  

### 2 **issues today. And, again, thank you very** 

### 3 **much.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 5 **Other issues here at the outset? Andrew** 

### 6 **deLaski.** 

### 7 **MR. deLASKI: Andrew deLaski,** 

### 8 **Appliance Standards Awareness Project. I want** 

### 9 **to also thank the Department for initiating** 

### 10 **this rulemaking. As the Department has shown,** 

### 11 **fans use a considerable amount of energy. On** 

### 12 **a national basis, about six and a half percent** 

### 13 **of electricity consumption is used to power** 

### 14 **fans according to the data presented in the** 

### 15 **RFI.** 

### 16 **So there are significant** 

### 17 **opportunities here. Even small improvements** 

### 18 **in fan efficiency offer the potential for** 

### 19 **significant savings on a national basis, even** 

### 20 **as you start to carve down to product classes** 

### 21 **that make sense, coming up with a set of fans** 

### 22 **that make sense for a standard.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 So we think this is a very**  

### 2 **promising endeavor for the Department, for** 

### 3 **delivering cost effective energy efficiency** 

### 4 **savings, and we appreciate DOE's work to get** 

### 5 **it off the ground.** 

### 6 **I also want to thank AMCA, Michael** 

### 7 **and the team at AMCA, and the manufacturers** 

### 8 **who reached out to us early -- very early in** 

### 9 **this process after the RFI was published to** 

### 10 **begin a relationship to help to educate us,** 

### 11 **the advocacy community, about fans to improve** 

### 12 **upon our existing base of knowledge about the** 

### 13 **opportunities and also the constraints in** 

### 14 **improving fan efficiency through standards.** 

### 15 **As you've indicated to DOE in a** 

### 16 **letter that we sent last fall jointly with** 

### 17 **AMCA, it is our ambition to work with AMCA and** 

### 18 **the manufacturer to come up with a joint** 

### 19 **recommendation. We are in the very infancy** 

### 20 **stage of that process, but that is our** 

### 21 **ambition. And that joint recommendation, as** 

### 22 **Michael has indicated, we would hope could**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 help form the basis for a DOE regulation**  

### 2 **eventually.** 

### 3 **We have only just begun this work.** 

### 4 **DOE's framework document helps to frame the** 

### 5 **key issues.** 

### 6 **With respect to the key issues that** 

### 7 **are outlined in the framework, characterize** 

### 8 **them as scope and exemptions, product classes,** 

### 9 **the approach for standards, test methods.** 

### 10 **These are all the critical issues. Indeed, we** 

### 11 **have done an excellent job of outlining them** 

### 12 **with the work that has gone into the framework** 

### 13 **and appreciate the time and effort that has** 

### 14 **gone into that.** 

### 15 **Our views on these issues are still** 

### 16 **forming. We look forward to learning more** 

### 17 **today, in the weeks ahead, and in** 

### 18 **participating actively in the discussion today** 

### 19 **and beyond.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 21 **Andrew.** 

### 22 **Other comments here at the outset?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 Please. Please say your name for the record.**  

### 2 **MR. ROY: My name is Aniruddh Roy,** 

### 3 **Air-Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration** 

### 4 **Institute. We would like to know on what** 

### 5 **basis DOE developed the framework document for** 

### 6 **commercial and industrial fans and blowers?** 

### 7 **Currently, there are requirements in place** 

### 8 **within ASHRAE Standard 90.1 for fans and HVAC** 

### 9 **applications.** 

### 10 **For example, there is a Section** 

### 11 **6.5.3 that effectively limits power** 

### 12 **consumption per CFM. The framework document** 

### 13 **seems to suggest that there are no existing** 

### 14 **requirements for fans in HVAC applications.** 

### 15 **And the only mention of ASHRAE Standard 90.1** 

### 16 **in the framework document, which is about 78** 

### 17 **or 79 pages, is during the discussion of the** 

### 18 **FEG requirements in Addendum U.** 

### 19 **However, the framework document** 

### 20 **fails to mention any of the exceptions that** 

### 21 **are mentioned in that addendum as well.** 

### 22 **DOE, as far as we know, is required**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 by the Energy Conservation and Production Act,**  

### 2 **to review the latest revision of ASHRAE** 

### 3 **Standard 90.1, and determine whether the** 

### 4 **revised code would improve energy efficiency** 

### 5 **in commercial buildings.** 

### 6 **If the determination is positive,** 

### 7 **states must, no later than two years after the** 

### 8 **date of publication of such affirmative** 

### 9 **determinations, certify that they have** 

### 10 **reviewed and updated the provisions of the** 

### 11 **commercial building codes to meet or exceed** 

### 12 **the requirements of ASHRAE 90.1.** 

### 13 **We feel that in the course of** 

### 14 **reviewing ASHRAE Standard 90.1 DOE should not** 

### 15 **have simply ignored the work that has been** 

### 16 **done over the years to develop fan** 

### 17 **requirements by the 90.1 Committee.** 

### 18 **DOE's energy consumption estimates** 

### 19 **in the June 28, 2011, Notice of Proposed** 

### 20 **Determination of Coverage, did not include any** 

### 21 **analysis on the energy savings that have been** 

### 22 **achieved through the adoption of ASHRAE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 Standard 90.1 by states over the years.**  

### 2 **As far as AHRI is concerned, a** 

### 3 **regulation on fans and blowers that are used** 

### 4 **in HVAC applications will simply lead to** 

### 5 **complications, since such fans and blowers are** 

### 6 **designed and installed as part of a larger** 

### 7 **HVAC system rather than stand-alone** 

### 8 **components.** 

### 9 **Setting energy conservation** 

### 10 **standards for such fans and blowers will not** 

### 11 **ensure an optimized energy savings solution** 

### 12 **for applied HVAC systems.** 

### 13 **MR. LLENZA: This is Charles** 

### 14 **Llenza, Department of Energy. We acknowledge** 

### 15 **your comments, but we are in the Appliance** 

### 16 **Standards Group. The Codes Group is a** 

### 17 **separate group. We will consult with our** 

### 18 **colleagues in terms of the preliminary** 

### 19 **analysis.** 

### 20 **But I also have to state that the** 

### 21 **ASHRAE standard has a little bit more of a** 

### 22 **broader range of issues that we do not cover**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 within the Appliance Standards Group. So it**  

### 2 **is a different forum.** 

### 3 **We appreciate your comments, but** 

### 4 **our mission here at the Appliance Standards** 

### 5 **Group in the Department of Energy is to** 

### 6 **actually regulate the appliance, not the** 

### 7 **building, not related to building codes, not** 

### 8 **related to the structural building itself, but** 

### 9 **to the actual equipment that comes out of** 

### 10 **production from a manufacturing facility.** 

### 11 **But your comments are well taken,** 

### 12 **and we will be consulting with the Codes Group** 

### 13 **for any impacts on our rulemaking.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: As the day** 

### 15 **proceeds, let's see how and if it intersects.** 

### 16 **We'll see.** 

### 17 **Yes. John Cymbalsky.** 

### 18 **MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky,** 

### 19 **DOE. I guess I manage the Building Codes,** 

### 20 **too, so maybe I should address this.** 

### 21 **(Laughter.)** 

### 22 **So the Department obviously**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 appreciates everything the ASHRAE committees**  

### 2 **do. We participate actively in ASHRAE 90.1,** 

### 3 **in particular. However, I think there may be** 

### 4 **a little confusion as to what ASHRAE does and** 

### 5 **what DOE appliance standards regulations do.** 

### 6 **You know, the appliance standards** 

### 7 **program sets minimum efficiency standards that** 

### 8 **are federal law. ASHRAE's recommendations are** 

### 9 **not federal law. However, the Department can** 

### 10 **look at ASHRAE and compel states to adopt that** 

### 11 **code through its process.** 

### 12 **However, this is a separate -- as** 

### 13 **Charlie said, this is a separate process. We** 

### 14 **are going to be looking at these fans and** 

### 15 **blowers separately from the building codes,** 

### 16 **but relying heavily on what ASHRAE has done.** 

### 17 **Obviously, that is a big part of the input to** 

### 18 **this process, so we will not ignore what is in** 

### 19 **the ASHRAE 90.1. We will not ignore any test** 

### 20 **methods or anything else that ASHRAE or other** 

### 21 **organizations may have come up with in this** 

### 22 **process.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 So actually I think it's great that**  

### 2 **ASHRAE has done a lot of good work in this** 

### 3 **area. That is going to help us move forward** 

### 4 **on this rulemaking.** 

### 5 **I will also put in a plug for a** 

### 6 **meeting we are having next week on Tuesday for** 

### 7 **a new Federal Advisory Committee that has been** 

### 8 **formed here at the Department. One of the** 

### 9 **charges that this new Advisory Committee will** 

### 10 **have is to form working groups to explore the** 

### 11 **possibility of negotiated rulemakings for** 

### 12 **certain products.** 

### 13 **As both Michael and Andrew have** 

### 14 **already addressed, that there has been some** 

### 15 **early conversations as to whether or not this** 

### 16 **product could be a good one to explore that** 

### 17 **possibility of a negotiated rulemaking. And** 

### 18 **we at the Department hope that this is a path** 

### 19 **that more products will go down as opposed to** 

### 20 **a notice and comment type rulemaking.** 

### 21 **The negotiated rulemaking is such** 

### 22 **that we could have several meetings where we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 all sit around this table here, and in real**  

### 2 **time we can negotiate all aspects of the** 

### 3 **rulemaking. And so we're hoping that the fan** 

### 4 **manufacturers, and AMCA in particular, will** 

### 5 **consider this as an option, if in fact the** 

### 6 **ASRAC committee decides that this product** 

### 7 **would be a good one to move forward on.** 

### 8 **So that meeting will take place in** 

### 9 **this room on Tuesday, February 26th at 9:00** 

### 10 **a.m.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 12 **MR. CYMBALSKY: At 10:00 a.m.,** 

### 13 **excuse me. 10:00 a.m.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ten.** 

### 15 **Thanks. Thanks very much.** 

### 16 **Don Brundage.** 

### 17 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage,** 

### 18 **Southern Company.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Don, will** 

### 20 **you leave that thing on, once it's on? Thank** 

### 21 **you. We should get a piece of tape.** 

### 22 **MR. BRUNDAGE: I'm a bit confused**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 on the --**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Don, it's** 

### 3 **still not on.** 

### 4 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Now?** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Okay. I'm a bit** 

### 7 **confused on the regulatory scheme we're** 

### 8 **operating under. The way I had always** 

### 9 **understood the way the process works, you had** 

### 10 **residential type or directly -- appliances** 

### 11 **that were directly listed in federal** 

### 12 **regulations that were regulated directly by** 

### 13 **DOE, and then you had the ASHRAE products** 

### 14 **where DOE was to consider the efficiency** 

### 15 **levels of ASHRAE, give deference to ASHRAE,** 

### 16 **and if they decide that there is evidence that** 

### 17 **the standard needs to be higher, then DOE** 

### 18 **might set a higher one.** 

### 19 **What you're saying now is that this** 

### 20 **is a product that would have the residential** 

### 21 **type regulation, and you are directly doing it** 

### 22 **without deference to ASHRAE.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: John**  

### 2 **Cymbalsky.** 

### 3 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. I'm going to** 

### 4 **be half lawyer/half whatever else I do here.** 

### 5 **(Laughter.)** 

### 6 **So you are -- so there are a list** 

### 7 **of ASHRAE products that, in fact, we follow** 

### 8 **that process that you just described. This,** 

### 9 **however, is not one of them. This is under** 

### 10 **Section 6311 of 42 USC.** 

### 11 **The types of equipment, blah, blah,** 

### 12 **blah, blah, blah, but it lists several things** 

### 13 **that are called out in the statute for us to** 

### 14 **follow this rulemaking, what you called** 

### 15 **consumer product type rulemaking --** 

### 16 **compressors, fans, blowers, et cetera, et** 

### 17 **cetera, et cetera. So we are operating under** 

### 18 **this section of the statute, so 6311(2)(B).** 

### 19 **MR. BRUNDAGE: And 6311(2)(B) does** 

### 20 **not imply residential and fans, blowers. It's** 

### 21 **all fans --** 

### 22 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Correct.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1 MR. BRUNDAGE: -- and blowers?**  

### 2 **MR. LLENZA: It's commercial.** 

### 3 **MR. CYMBALSKY: This is commercial** 

### 4 **and industrial --** 

### 5 **MR. LLENZA: Right.** 

### 6 **MR. CYMBALSKY: -- fans and** 

### 7 **blowers.** 

### 8 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 10 **Thanks for that clarification. That's** 

### 11 **helpful.** 

### 12 **Karim? Karim Amrane.** 

### 13 **MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I** 

### 14 **would like to respond to John's comment. I'm** 

### 15 **glad to hear that DOE is going to be looking** 

### 16 **at ASHRAE 90.1 and the work that ASHRAE 90.1** 

### 17 **has done. But so far, if we look at all the** 

### 18 **analysis that was done so far, your RFI, your** 

### 19 **justification to be here today, you have not** 

### 20 **accounted for anything that ASHRAE has done.** 

### 21 **Okay? You are assuming that there is nothing** 

### 22 **in place today, and there have been**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 requirements on fan for decades in ASHRAE**  

### 2 **90.1.** 

### 3 **So what I'm saying, I'm glad to** 

### 4 **hear that DOE is looking at ASHRAE, but you** 

### 5 **should be looking at ASHRAE, because there are** 

### 6 **things in place today.** 

### 7 **Thank you.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 9 **Okay.** 

### 10 **So now I'm going to go to Charles** 

### 11 **Llenza. He is going to provide an overview.** 

### 12 **MR. LLENZA: Okay. So just a brief** 

### 13 **introduction here. The purpose of today's** 

### 14 **meeting is to present our proposed analytical** 

### 15 **approaches to be used to evaluate the energy** 

### 16 **conservation standards for commercial and** 

### 17 **industrial fans and blowers.** 

### 18 **It is also to inform the interested** 

### 19 **parties here on -- in terms of what our plans** 

### 20 **are for the rulemaking, also to facilitate** 

### 21 **comments from the stakeholders and advocates,** 

### 22 **also to provide a forum here for public**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 discussion on these issues, and to encourage**  

### 2 **all parties attending and those attending on** 

### 3 **the webinar and other parties that have not** 

### 4 **been able to attend, to provide their** 

### 5 **information, written comments, and other** 

### 6 **material, as appropriate.** 

### 7 **We will be using these blue request** 

### 8 **comment boxes throughout the process here for** 

### 9 **specific questions that the Department has.** 

### 10 **And these are the highlights of what the** 

### 11 **Department seeks in terms of comments from the** 

### 12 **stakeholders in terms of particular issues we** 

### 13 **discuss as we go through the presentation.** 

### 14 **I may note at this time that the** 

### 15 **framework document has a whole section on** 

### 16 **questions that the Department has to the** 

### 17 **industry, and I would appreciate as much** 

### 18 **responsiveness from the industry on those** 

### 19 **comments, not necessarily at this meeting but** 

### 20 **within the written comment process, and which** 

### 21 **we have extended the comment period to May** 

### 22 **2nd, which we understand the complexity and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 the need for a little bit more time to**  

### 2 **evaluate the Department's framework proposal.** 

### 3 **Okay. And we do have a specific** 

### 4 **way of submitting these comments, and we would** 

### 5 **like for you to provide a docket number and/or** 

### 6 **RIN number that is related to this particular** 

### 7 **rulemaking.** 

### 8 **We have an electronic email box,** 

### 9 **which you can submit your comments through, or** 

### 10 **you could use the postal mail or a courier,** 

### 11 **but we would prefer the electronic method of** 

### 12 **delivery.** 

### 13 **And, once again, I want to** 

### 14 **emphasize that we have extended the comment** 

### 15 **period to May 2, 2013, in lieu of the** 

### 16 **sensitivity of the time needed to review** 

### 17 **appropriately the framework document.** 

### 18 **Any questions on this so far?** 

### 19 **(No response.)** 

### 20 **Okay. Rulemaking process overview.** 

### 21 **EPCA, the Energy Policy and Conservation Act,** 

### 22 **as amended, contains at least 12 types of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1 industrial equipment that are considered**  

### 2 **covered equipment under the statute, that the** 

### 3 **Secretary of Energy is authorized to establish** 

### 4 **energy conservation standards.** 

### 5 **As John was mentioning, fans and** 

### 6 **blowers are two of the specific types of** 

### 7 **industrial equipment that are under the** 

### 8 **statute 42 USC 6311(2)(B). EPCA also directs** 

### 9 **DOE to develop new and amended standards** 

### 10 **designed to achieve maximum improvements to** 

### 11 **energy efficiency that are technologically** 

### 12 **feasible and economically justified. And this** 

### 13 **rulemaking process that the DOE provides --** 

### 14 **and schedule -- helps us do just that.** 

### 15 **EPCA directs DOE to consider some** 

### 16 **factors in the analysis. And as you can see** 

### 17 **in the first column, those are the EPCA** 

### 18 **requirements. There are seven of them. And** 

### 19 **the corresponding DOE analysis is in the** 

### 20 **right-hand column. And throughout the next** 

### 21 **three years of the rulemaking, or whatever** 

### 22 **timeframe it takes, we will be going through**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 that analysis, corresponding analysis.**  

### 2 **So let me talk a little bit about** 

### 3 **the rulemaking process timelines. This is our** 

### 4 **standard timelines. We do have other** 

### 5 **rulemakings that may be accelerated. There is** 

### 6 **also a negotiated rulemaking process that John** 

### 7 **has mentioned that is encouraged by the** 

### 8 **Department. But this is our standard process** 

### 9 **based on the statute, and for Fans and Blowers** 

### 10 **we have -- it is three years.** 

### 11 **We are at the framework document** 

### 12 **point. We will have a preliminary analysis** 

### 13 **after this; a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking,** 

### 14 **which is a draft rule; and then we will have a** 

### 15 **final rule published hopefully in the three** 

### 16 **years..** 

### 17 **At the same time, there is a test** 

### 18 **procedure process that is integrated within** 

### 19 **the timeline of the energy conservation** 

### 20 **standard rulemaking, but it is a separate** 

### 21 **process. It parallels the process.** 

### 22 **Just to mention that the test**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 procedure is key and critical in establishing**  

### 2 **the metrics for the energy conservation** 

### 3 **standard. So as part of the integrated** 

### 4 **rulemaking process for fans and blowers, this** 

### 5 **is the methodology we would be using here to** 

### 6 **get both the energy conservation standard and** 

### 7 **the test procedures processed issued by the** 

### 8 **Department.** 

### 9 **The test procedure is usually a** 

### 10 **year and a half. It depends on the level of** 

### 11 **complexity. And, again, the rulemaking --** 

### 12 **energy conservation standard usually takes** 

### 13 **three years. There is additional information** 

### 14 **at that website, if you care to look at more** 

### 15 **detail of the process.** 

### 16 **I'm going to talk a little bit** 

### 17 **about these chevrons for the energy** 

### 18 **conservation standard. Today we are at the** 

### 19 **framework document. It provides an overview** 

### 20 **of our rulemaking process and encourages early** 

### 21 **participation of interested parties, because** 

### 22 **we are starting at the beginning here of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 rulemaking at the Department of Energy.**  

### 2 **We invite comments at all times of** 

### 3 **our proposed approach and issues. And we --** 

### 4 **this is just a listing of the framework** 

### 5 **document that was - - issued the notice that was**  

### 6 **issued in the Federal Register February 1,** 

### 7 **2013.** 

### 8 **From the framework process, we will** 

### 9 **go into preliminary analysis mode. It is** 

### 10 **planned for quarter -- third quarter of 2014.** 

### 11 **We plan to have in the Federal Register Notice** 

### 12 **announcing that process to formally start.** 

### 13 **They will have another meeting just like we're** 

### 14 **having today, and you can see that we will** 

### 15 **provide you a listing of the preliminary** 

### 16 **analysis that the Department has developed by** 

### 17 **that timeframe.** 

### 18 **In addition, we will be discussing** 

### 19 **your comments received from the framework** 

### 20 **document and incorporating to the best of our** 

### 21 **abilities the improvements to the DOE process** 

### 22 **for the rulemaking.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1 From the preliminary analysis, we**  

### 2 **will be -- also we will be developing a TSD,** 

### 3 **technical support document, with all of the** 

### 4 **material of the data that we utilized to** 

### 5 **provide the analysis and the analysis itself.** 

### 6 **From this point, we will go to a** 

### 7 **Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. Again, that is** 

### 8 **a draft of what we think the standard levels** 

### 9 **will be. We will have discussions of the** 

### 10 **comments received in response to the** 

### 11 **preliminary analysis and TSD.** 

### 12 **And it will refine the analysis the** 

### 13 **Department has provided in the preliminary** 

### 14 **analysis, and we will have more detail in** 

### 15 **terms of the levels based on what is** 

### 16 **economically justified and technologically** 

### 17 **feasible.** 

### 18 **And that would be subject to public** 

### 19 **comments. We will have another meeting, and** 

### 20 **we are planning to do that in the second** 

### 21 **quarter of 2015.** 

### 22 **Okay. So the final rule hopefully**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1 will be issued in about three years. The**  

### 2 **process always incorporates comments from the** 

### 3 **stakeholders. I think that's critical to keep** 

### 4 **in mind. We're sensitive to your comments.** 

### 5 **We will respond to your comments within the** 

### 6 **documents.** 

### 7 **And we will make all of the -- any** 

### 8 **adjustments that we have to make to the** 

### 9 **technical support documents. And then, once** 

### 10 **these levels are finalized in the final rule** 

### 11 **and published, they become the standard. That** 

### 12 **is planned in the first quarter of 2016.** 

### 13 **Okay. What does that look like?** 

### 14 **Here is our comprehensive schedule integrated** 

### 15 **with the test procedure, so that you can see** 

### 16 **how the test procedure is linked to the energy** 

### 17 **conservation standard.** 

### 18 **We issued the framework document in** 

### 19 **January 2013, and then today we are having the** 

### 20 **public meeting. You can see that the next** 

### 21 **public meeting and major document will be a** 

### 22 **test procedure NOPR, which is basically our**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1 proposal for what the test procedure should**  

### 2 **look like.** 

### 3 **And then we will have a preliminary** 

### 4 **analysis public meeting at some point after we** 

### 5 **release the preliminary analysis documents in** 

### 6 **the Federal Register. The test procedure will** 

### 7 **be finalized somewhere after 2015, and then** 

### 8 **that will be followed by a Notice of Proposed** 

### 9 **Rulemaking, which is in the draft rule.** 

### 10 **We will have another meeting in the** 

### 11 **second quarter of 2015. And as you can see,** 

### 12 **the completion date, the final rule.** 

### 13 **This is the road map for us to how** 

### 14 **to get from A -- from today's meeting, which** 

### 15 **opens up the rulemaking, to completion of the** 

### 16 **mission here at the Department for the** 

### 17 **rulemaking.** 

### 18 **Three years later after we have** 

### 19 **published a final rule, the standards that the** 

### 20 **Department issues become effective. In other** 

### 21 **words, there is plenty of time for the** 

### 22 **industry to get ready for those new standards.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1 And one of the things that we need to keep in**  

### 2 **mind is that it is not happening overnight.** 

### 3 **We are talking six years out. Okay.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Michael?** 

### 5 **MR. IVANOVICH: Michael Ivanovich,** 

### 6 **AMCA International. Could you just discuss a** 

### 7 **little bit how a joint recommendation or a** 

### 8 **negotiated ruling would impact these steps?** 

### 9 **MR. LLENZA: Well, I'm envisioning** 

### 10 **that parallel to this timeframe for our test** 

### 11 **procedures and the energy conservation** 

### 12 **standard rulemaking. You will have another** 

### 13 **process where the Department and the advocates** 

### 14 **and the manufacturers and all of the parties** 

### 15 **of interest are talking to the Department** 

### 16 **about information needed, that we are** 

### 17 **providing or information that they may have,** 

### 18 **in terms of what they think should be** 

### 19 **regulated, what should be -- what standard** 

### 20 **level should be used, et cetera.** 

### 21 **And I would think that as we issue** 

### 22 **more analysis from the Department that the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1 industry would look at what we are proposing**  

### 2 **and then use that information that they may** 

### 3 **have to then propose back to us whatever** 

### 4 **levels. And John may want to say a few words** 

### 5 **--** 

### 6 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. Let me try to** 

### 7 **clarify it a bit. So a joint recommendation** 

### 8 **could be submitted, and the Department would** 

### 9 **consider it as part of this process that you** 

### 10 **see here. Now, if you wanted to go the** 

### 11 **negotiated rulemaking path, in that the** 

### 12 **process would be different than this. We** 

### 13 **would have meetings that are set.** 

### 14 **And depending on what the working** 

### 15 **group -- if the working group is formed, the** 

### 16 **working group itself sets sort of the** 

### 17 **schedule, you know, with the Department buy-in** 

### 18 **obviously.** 

### 19 **And at that point, any negotiated** 

### 20 **outcomes that come out of that process would** 

### 21 **go into a proposal. So it would go into the** 

### 22 **NOPR in here.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1 So the Department's fallback**  

### 2 **position would be this, in case the** 

### 3 **negotiations don't have a fruitful outcome.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Right. This** 

### 5 **process will proceed.** 

### 6 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Correct.** 

### 7 **Independently. With the same data and the** 

### 8 **same -- you know, understanding that we are** 

### 9 **going to be doing both at the same time. So** 

### 10 **the same people, you know, the consultants** 

### 11 **that we rely on to do the lion's share of the** 

### 12 **analysis here will be in both processes. So,** 

### 13 **yes.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Karim.** 

### 15 **MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI.** 

### 16 **To follow up on that, who is going to decide** 

### 17 **whether there is going to be a negotiated** 

### 18 **rulemaking? It's going to be this Advisory** 

### 19 **Committee that is going to make that --** 

### 20 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. So on Tuesday** 

### 21 **we are going to -- John Cymbalsky, DOE. On** 

### 22 **Tuesday we will have our first meeting of this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1 new committee, and at that time the agenda**  

### 2 **will allow time for proposals of working** 

### 3 **groups to be formed.** 

### 4 **I can say that the Department --** 

### 5 **this is one of the products that has been** 

### 6 **mentioned, because we have received your** 

### 7 **letter, and so obviously this is one that on** 

### 8 **behalf of the Department I could say we are** 

### 9 **definitely interested in, and hopefully you** 

### 10 **are as well.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank** 

### 12 **you for that clarification.** 

### 13 **Charles, let's go. Oh, we have one** 

### 14 **more question. Your name, please, sir.** 

### 15 **MR. SMITH: I'm Wade Smith from** 

### 16 **AMCA.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. SMITH: Originally, there was** 

### 19 **some discussion about a negotiated outcome** 

### 20 **that involved interested parties from the** 

### 21 **manufacturers and interested advocates on the** 

### 22 **environmental side. And from your comment a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1 moment ago, I understand that that path is**  

### 2 **still available to us, and that the outcome of** 

### 3 **that discussion/negotiation would inform this** 

### 4 **process. Have I got that right?** 

### 5 **So I guess my question is, could** 

### 6 **you compare and contrast your view in terms of** 

### 7 **how that process compares to a negotiated** 

### 8 **process and why the Department is interested** 

### 9 **in raising the specter of negotiated process** 

### 10 **at this time?** 

### 11 **MR. CYMBALSKY: A specter. Okay.** 

### 12 **(Laughter.)** 

### 13 **I actually thought it was a good** 

### 14 **thing.** 

### 15 **(Laughter.)** 

### 16 **Okay. So for those who come on** 

### 17 **Tuesday, I guess I will repeat myself. But,** 

### 18 **okay, so what ASRAC will do will present** 

### 19 **options to charter working groups, whereby** 

### 20 **interested stakeholders could nominate** 

### 21 **themselves or others to be a member of this** 

### 22 **working group whose job it will be to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1 negotiate an energy conservation standard or**  

### 2 **all parts of the standard with DOE's** 

### 3 **involvement.** 

### 4 **And what we learned from our first** 

### 5 **foray into this with transformers, we actually** 

### 6 **have three types of distribution transformers** 

### 7 **that we tried to negotiate a standard for. We** 

### 8 **got one out of three. That's -- I don't know,** 

### 9 **you get eight million a year in baseball for** 

### 10 **one out of three, so I'm going to call it a** 

### 11 **win.** 

### 12 **(Laughter.)** 

### 13 **You know, and for what it's worth,** 

### 14 **there's a few others in this room who were** 

### 15 **part of that process.** 

### 16 **Now, we could all say at the end of** 

### 17 **the day we may not have got to where we wanted** 

### 18 **to get to, but nobody -- all 25 people in that** 

### 19 **process agreed that it was far better than the** 

### 20 **normal notice and comment rulemaking that we** 

### 21 **do, because in real time people were** 

### 22 **discussing, hey, how about this level, that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1 level, what if we give here, we get there,**  

### 2 **what's the numbers that would, you know,** 

### 3 **surround that outcome.** 

### 4 **And we'd have our consultants in** 

### 5 **the room on their laptops in real time** 

### 6 **producing analysis, and I think having that** 

### 7 **back and forth over a few days in a row, you** 

### 8 **know, real concentrated work, I think most** 

### 9 **people in the room found that a little less** 

### 10 **black boxy, if you will.** 

### 11 **All information was out on the** 

### 12 **table. If you wanted to provide information** 

### 13 **that was business confidential, or you didn't** 

### 14 **want it to be disclosed, you could sign these** 

### 15 **non-disclosure agreements and talk to the** 

### 16 **consultants in the hallway, and, you know, we** 

### 17 **would mask that data.** 

### 18 **But personally I think having a** 

### 19 **negotiated outcome at the end of the day means** 

### 20 **after the fact that the chance of litigation** 

### 21 **is smaller, you know, from the Department's** 

### 22 **point of view. That's not to say it won't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1 happen. But we think that if everyone in the**  

### 2 **room and all of the key stakeholders in the** 

### 3 **room are negotiating and they say yes, we** 

### 4 **think that's a better outcome than the** 

### 5 **alternative.** 

### 6 **So I strongly -- on behalf of the** 

### 7 **Department, we strongly encourage that** 

### 8 **process.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Andrew** 

### 10 **deLaski.** 

### 11 **MR. deLASKI: Just a couple of** 

### 12 **comments. One is John and Charlie, I mean,** 

### 13 **you -- I think you made it very clear, you** 

### 14 **used the word that they are independent of one** 

### 15 **another.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Is your** 

### 17 **microphone on?** 

### 18 **MR. deLASKI: Independent. The** 

### 19 **light -- it's lit up.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank** 

### 21 **you.** 

### 22 **MR. deLASKI: Maybe it's not close**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1 enough. Is that the issue?**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 3 **MR. deLASKI: All right. You know,** 

### 4 **in the sense that, as you have just described,** 

### 5 **this team of consultants is there in the room.** 

### 6 **You or your designee is there in the room, so** 

### 7 **the folks who are running the rulemaking, the** 

### 8 **normal rulemaking if you will, are the same** 

### 9 **folks who are engaged and supporting the reg** 

### 10 **neg.** 

### 11 **Okay. I see you nodding, so I** 

### 12 **think that's an important -- you know, so my** 

### 13 **understanding of it is that you still have an** 

### 14 **obligation and a commitment to follow through** 

### 15 **on the schedule that Charlie has described.** 

### 16 **So that is going to happen.** 

### 17 **But what's happening in the reg neg** 

### 18 **can't help but to inform what happens there,** 

### 19 **whether or not we ultimately -- the** 

### 20 **participants in the reg neg reach a consensus** 

### 21 **in the end, because if it's not working like** 

### 22 **that then, you know, we are all going to go**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1 away, because it's going to be -- it's like**  

### 2 **we're going to be frustrated, right?** 

### 3 **Because what's going to happen is** 

### 4 **that, the way I would envision something like** 

### 5 **this would work, is that it would be** 

### 6 **difficult, I would suspect, to complete this** 

### 7 **prior to the preliminary technical support** 

### 8 **document being published.** 

### 9 **Both time-wise in terms of -- also,** 

### 10 **information and data-wise, right? Because we** 

### 11 **-- our deliberations of any committee, it** 

### 12 **seems to me, would be informed by the analysis** 

### 13 **that is being developed prior to the PTSD, the** 

### 14 **preliminary technical support document, and** 

### 15 **that we are going to be discussing today as we** 

### 16 **go on, and also by the things that build up to** 

### 17 **that.** 

### 18 **So what I would hope would happen** 

### 19 **-- and I did with respect to the transformer** 

### 20 **process -- is that there would be more sharing** 

### 21 **by the Department of its analyses that build** 

### 22 **up to that PTSD document, enabling us -- and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1 then also an opportunity for the stakeholders**  

### 2 **to influence what goes -- the product classes,** 

### 3 **the definitions, the testing, that become the** 

### 4 **underlying foundation of that PTSD, and that** 

### 5 **there is -- it's a more iterative process.** 

### 6 **As opposed to us talking to you** 

### 7 **here today, submitting comments on May 2nd,** 

### 8 **and then we wait for however long it is, more** 

### 9 **than a year, right, to see what comes out of** 

### 10 **that process. That is more of an ongoing** 

### 11 **engagement with everybody around the same** 

### 12 **table. So that is kind of how I --** 

### 13 **MR. CYMBALSKY: And Andrew is the** 

### 14 **co-chair of ASRAC, so he has -- he is speaking** 

### 15 **with authority here, actually.** 

### 16 **MR. deLASKI: And that -- to me,** 

### 17 **the difference between this process and the** 

### 18 **transformer process is that we have more time.** 

### 19 **In transformers we had to do three --** 

### 20 **basically three classes in three months, and** 

### 21 **it was difficult, given that compressed** 

### 22 **timeframe.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve**  

### 2 **Rosenstock.** 

### 3 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 4 **EEI. To follow on, I also participated in the** 

### 5 **process. And one also key difference is in** 

### 6 **that process we are just only talking about** 

### 7 **the efficiency standard. There was no** 

### 8 **discussion -- we didn't have to have any** 

### 9 **discussions about test procedure.** 

### 10 **So the efficiency metrics were** 

### 11 **already established, but this product,** 

### 12 **unfortunately, right now there is no -- we** 

### 13 **haven't even defined the efficiency metric** 

### 14 **yet. So it is kind of hard to talk about the** 

### 15 **standard when you haven't agreed upon the** 

### 16 **efficiency metric yet.** 

### 17 **So in this case, in terms -- again,** 

### 18 **it unfortunately might be harder -- a higher** 

### 19 **hurdle in the fact that there is a timing of** 

### 20 **the test procedure as well as the efficiency** 

### 21 **standard, because if there is no I'll say** 

### 22 **draft test procedure by the time of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1 preliminary analysis, that can make**  

### 2 **negotiations a little tougher, too, because** 

### 3 **again you might need -- for this case, you** 

### 4 **might need to negotiate both the test** 

### 5 **procedure and the efficiency standard.** 

### 6 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. I guess --** 

### 7 **John Cymbalsky, DOE. I guess I should -- you** 

### 8 **know, I thought I would point it out, that the** 

### 9 **whole scope of the rulemaking is part of this** 

### 10 **negotiation. So, obviously, the efficiency** 

### 11 **metric and product, all of that stuff is sort** 

### 12 **of on the table to negotiate.** 

### 13 **And I think if a working group is** 

### 14 **established for this, personally having been** 

### 15 **through a bunch of these, I think -- I would** 

### 16 **just say I -- in my opinion, I think you'll** 

### 17 **find it more intellectually stimulating to do** 

### 18 **than --** 

### 19 **(Laughter.)** 

### 20 **-- negotiated rulemaking. And I --** 

### 21 **and, again, I think we were -- we didn't get** 

### 22 **consensus on the three products for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1 transformers. We did get consensus, 25 out of**  

### 2 **25, that that process was better than the one** 

### 3 **Andrew just described a few minutes ago. So** 

### 4 **--** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Michael, do** 

### 6 **you want to -- no? All set. Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. LLENZA: This is Charles from** 

### 8 **the Department. I just want to point, if you** 

### 9 **look at the schedule, that's the plan. The** 

### 10 **test procedure will be -- the NOPR, at least** 

### 11 **you'll get a good idea what the test** 

### 12 **procedure, what we're planning to do with the** 

### 13 **NOPR and the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for** 

### 14 **the test procedure before the preliminary** 

### 15 **analysis.** 

### 16 **So usually by the time we're** 

### 17 **issuing a NOPR for a test procedure we have** 

### 18 **laid out the test plan.** 

### 19 **MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky,** 

### 20 **DOE. And I would propose that if in fact a** 

### 21 **working group is chartered under ASRAC that we** 

### 22 **would begin work before that first green dot,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1 so that there would be some analysis that the**  

### 2 **Department is working on prior to publishing** 

### 3 **any of those documents where there would be** 

### 4 **input from the working group into the numbers.** 

### 5 **And I would say that that is not a bad thing,** 

### 6 **so --** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Final** 

### 8 **questions on this subject before we move on?** 

### 9 **(No response.)** 

### 10 **Okay. Now back to the content here** 

### 11 **in the slides and Charles Llenza.** 

### 12 **MR. LLENZA: Yes. Section 3,** 

### 13 **authority and definitions. The Department has** 

### 14 **the authority under EPCA, Title 3, Part C, as** 

### 15 **amended, set forth, various provisions** 

### 16 **designed to improve energy efficiency in** 

### 17 **commercial and industrial equipment.** 

### 18 **If you look at Section 6311, that** 

### 19 **is where it talks about it includes fans and** 

### 20 **blowers. And that is why we have kicked off** 

### 21 **this rulemaking today.** 

### 22 **The manufactures must use DOE-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1 prescribed test procedures to establish**  

### 2 **compliance with the standard sets for** 

### 3 **commercial and industrial fans. Again, I am** 

### 4 **just -- this is just emphasizing that the test** 

### 5 **procedure is an integral part of this process,** 

### 6 **because the test procedure is what will** 

### 7 **provide the metrics for us to establish the** 

### 8 **energy conservation standards.** 

### 9 **Okay. So definitions. While we** 

### 10 **don't -- we have the authority, we currently** 

### 11 **don't have definitions in terms of what -- in** 

### 12 **terms of what is a fan and what is a blower** 

### 13 **under the commercial and industrial section** 

### 14 **here of EPCA.** 

### 15 **So the Department has proposed a** 

### 16 **series of definitions. I will just read the** 

### 17 **headlines, and you can read the definitions in** 

### 18 **particular. So we have proposed definitions** 

### 19 **for commercial and industrial fans, for what a** 

### 20 **fan manufacturer is, what an axial fan is,** 

### 21 **what a centrifugal fan is, cross-flow fan,** 

### 22 **mixed flow fan, and what we describe as a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1 blower, and what a safety fan would be.**  

### 2 **And fan types, inclusion of all fan** 

### 3 **types, axial, centrifugal, mixed flow, and** 

### 4 **blowers. And we are looking also at the** 

### 5 **physical and performance criteria for the** 

### 6 **standards, so we're looking at the impeller** 

### 7 **diameter, transmissions of all types, and the** 

### 8 **rotation speed, speeds up to 8,000 rpm.** 

### 9 **So the important comment box.** 

### 10 **Item 2.1, DOE requests data on how fans are** 

### 11 **sold; 2.2, DOE requests comments on the** 

### 12 **suggested cross-flow fan definitions; 2/3, DOE** 

### 13 **requests comments on the suggested blower** 

### 14 **definitions; 2/4, we request comments on the** 

### 15 **suggested safety fan definition; and 2/7, DOE** 

### 16 **requests comments on fan coverage as fans are** 

### 17 **defined in the framework document.** 

### 18 **So getting back to the point, this** 

### 19 **is the beginning of the rulemaking. We are** 

### 20 **trying to set the foundation of what we're** 

### 21 **doing here. We have some proposed** 

### 22 **definitions, and what we are requesting at**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1 this point in time is that the advocates and**  

### 2 **the parties attending this meeting weigh in on** 

### 3 **those definitions.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So** 

### 5 **you can see the request for comment. And,** 

### 6 **first of all, let me ask AMCA directly, do you** 

### 7 **have data? Have you been collecting data that** 

### 8 **would be helpful to the Department?** 

### 9 **MR. IVANOVICH: We have some data,** 

### 10 **but we would like to thank the Department of** 

### 11 **Energy for granting the 45-day extension,** 

### 12 **because upon reviewing the framework document** 

### 13 **it was obvious that there is a lot more data** 

### 14 **that we are going to need to answer those** 

### 15 **questions decisively.** 

### 16 **So there is a lot -- you know, some** 

### 17 **data that we have that we will be able to** 

### 18 **provide as part of the written comments, but** 

### 19 **there is a lot that we don't.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. And is** 

### 21 **that -- does AMCA typically survey its members** 

### 22 **to obtain data like -- I mean, is this a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1 convention?**  

### 2 **MR. IVANOVICH: We have a** 

### 3 **statistical program that -- it is a voluntary** 

### 4 **basis, because by law it has to be voluntary.** 

### 5 **And the reporting is in sales dollars, not in** 

### 6 **units and things of that nature. So there is** 

### 7 **a lot of work that we have to do to extract** 

### 8 **data from our members in a way that the** 

### 9 **Department can use them.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I don't wish** 

### 11 **to pry, and I don't wish to put you on the** 

### 12 **spot, but I do want to see -- get sort of a** 

### 13 **sense of your capacity to get this done.** 

### 14 **MR. IVANOVICH: Well, it is** 

### 15 **voluntary. So we are engaging in that process** 

### 16 **now, and we have high hopes and expectations** 

### 17 **that we will be able to provide some data to** 

### 18 **the Department of Energy. That is why we** 

### 19 **asked for the extension. We have to get it.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank** 

### 21 **you. Yes.** 

### 22 **MR. LLENZA: I will also -- at this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60**  **1 point in time also encourage those parties**  

### 2 **that make comments about the ASHRAE Committee** 

### 3 **definitions and other issues that are going on** 

### 4 **with fans and blowers to weigh in heavily** 

### 5 **here, so that you can provide the transparency** 

### 6 **from what is happening in ASHRAE into our** 

### 7 **rulemaking. It's a great opportunity to, you** 

### 8 **know, get this started off on the right foot.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Great. Gary** 

### 10 **Fernstrom.** 

### 11 **MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom. I** 

### 12 **think the generalized issue here is that** 

### 13 **definitions are important, because they may** 

### 14 **merit different efficiency level treatments in** 

### 15 **the regulation. The concern is that the** 

### 16 **definitions be definitive enough, so that a** 

### 17 **loophole is not created.** 

### 18 **To give you an example, years ago** 

### 19 **DOE set a regulation for incandescent** 

### 20 **reflector lamps. It turns out that bulbous** 

### 21 **reflector lamps, a specialized type of** 

### 22 **reflector lamp, were exempted, and today**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61**  **1 virtually all of the reflector lamps,**  

### 2 **incandescent ones that are sold, are bulbous** 

### 3 **reflector lamps.** 

### 4 **So that caveat in the definition** 

### 5 **created a loophole, which effectively made the** 

### 6 **regulation useless. So we want to be careful** 

### 7 **in our definition, so that we don't, for** 

### 8 **example, find a large number of safety fans** 

### 9 **being sold for other applications creating a** 

### 10 **loophole.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Right.** 

### 12 **MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: In just a** 

### 14 **moment, we are hoping to get your comments,** 

### 15 **perhaps preliminary comments -- maybe you have** 

### 16 **developed this -- on these definitions you** 

### 17 **have. That's good to see.** 

### 18 **Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 19 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock** 

### 20 **Edison Electric Institute. Just a quick** 

### 21 **follow-up on the definition of safety fan.** 

### 22 **And, again, the following slide is -- is the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62**  **1 idea to exempt safety fans from the regulation**  

### 2 **just because of low operation hours and very** 

### 3 **specific requirements for those fans? And** 

### 4 **then I have a follow up.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charles?** 

### 6 **MR. LLENZA: I think the issue with** 

### 7 **safety fans, again, is the word "safety."** 

### 8 **Some of these fans are not designed to be most** 

### 9 **efficient, but they may be designed to blow** 

### 10 **out air or material in order to preserve life.** 

### 11 **So at that -- you know, I think we** 

### 12 **have issues with safety, safety equipment,** 

### 13 **that we would not subject them to necessarily** 

### 14 **to any kind of regulatory regimen, because** 

### 15 **they are not -- they are not the normal fans,** 

### 16 **they are not the normal equipment fans.** 

### 17 **They have to perform maybe to a** 

### 18 **higher grade of efficiency, but not** 

### 19 **necessarily in the most efficient manner. So** 

### 20 **--** 

### 21 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Steve** 

### 22 **Rosenstock, EEI. I appreciate that, and, you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63**  **1 know, I'm especially thinking of like for**  

### 2 **commercial buildings you have the smoke** 

### 3 **exhaust fans and the pressurization fans, fans** 

### 4 **that are designed for emergency conditions** 

### 5 **only, where they are only going to operate** 

### 6 **maybe once a month for code compliance tests** 

### 7 **to make sure they're working, or in the case** 

### 8 **of a real emergency, and that's it. So** 

### 9 **they're operating maybe two hours a year or** 

### 10 **not -- you know, maybe six hours a year, half** 

### 11 **an hour a month or something like that. So I** 

### 12 **would agree with that.** 

### 13 **My other question -- my other** 

### 14 **thought -- my question -- again, it's a** 

### 15 **definition, so it's kind of getting in the** 

### 16 **weeds, is you just said right here under axial** 

### 17 **or centrifugal fan, are there other types of** 

### 18 **fans used in these environments?** 

### 19 **MR. LLENZA: At this moment, you** 

### 20 **know, I don't know if -- Alex, do we know of** 

### 21 **any other? Just come up to my microphone.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Find a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64**  **1 microphone, Alex.**  

### 2 **MR. LEKOV: Alex LEKOV, Lawrence** 

### 3 **Berkeley National Laboratory. At this time,** 

### 4 **the Department is open for any suggestion of** 

### 5 **fan types that could be included in the** 

### 6 **category of safety fans.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 8 **Andrew deLaski?** 

### 9 **MR. deLASKI: If you could go back** 

### 10 **a slide, Charlie? There was -- where your** 

### 11 **comment boxes were.** 

### 12 **MR. LLENZA: Oh, okay.** 

### 13 **MR. deLASKI: So I'm having trouble** 

### 14 **tracking here, because in the document, Item** 

### 15 **2.7 is something different. So I'm just -- in** 

### 16 **terms of tracking in the framework, Item 2.7** 

### 17 **is a different questions. So is there -- is** 

### 18 **that --** 

### 19 **MR. LLENZA: It could be a mistake,** 

### 20 **so we'll just have to make corrections to** 

### 21 **this.** 

### 22 **MR. deLASKI: Okay. Just have to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65**  **1 go along and --**  

### 2 **MR. LLENZA: I'll have --** 

### 3 **MR. deLASKI: -- backtracking the** 

### 4 **item numbers here. It would be good to --** 

### 5 **hopefully, this is an exception, an anomaly.** 

### 6 **But I also want to ask, you are** 

### 7 **requesting comment on fan coverage as fans are** 

### 8 **defined in the framework document. So my** 

### 9 **question is, at what point does the Department** 

### 10 **anticipate defining coverage? So let me be --** 

### 11 **let me give a specific example.** 

### 12 **So, Steve, we talk about safety** 

### 13 **fans. There seems to be pretty much, you** 

### 14 **know, an open question here about whether** 

### 15 **safety fans would be covered at all, right?** 

### 16 **So you have a standard for safety fans because** 

### 17 **-- for the reason Steve just described.** 

### 18 **So at what point would the** 

### 19 **Department, you know, address issues of** 

### 20 **whether particular types or classes or** 

### 21 **definitions of fans are indeed a covered fan?** 

### 22 **MR. LLENZA: I think that, you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66**  **1 know, we would have -- according to the**  

### 2 **schedule, it's probably at the preliminary** 

### 3 **analysis stage.** 

### 4 **Now, if there is a possibility of** 

### 5 **us issuing --** 

### 6 **MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl, DOE** 

### 7 **General Counsel. I mean, obviously, we don't** 

### 8 **make final decisions until the final rule.** 

### 9 **Right? So we take input and we potentially** 

### 10 **narrow issues as we move along.** 

### 11 **MR. deLASKI: Right.** 

### 12 **MS. KOHL: And in the proposal, you** 

### 13 **know, you'll get the best idea of the** 

### 14 **Department's proposal for what we think the** 

### 15 **scope should be. And then, again, we take** 

### 16 **comments and consider it and then there is** 

### 17 **your final rule. So --** 

### 18 **MR. deLASKI: Okay.** 

### 19 **MS. KOHL: -- definitive decisions** 

### 20 **are not made until the end.** 

### 21 **MR. deLASKI: Right. Because it** 

### 22 **just strikes me that the issues of what is in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67**  **1 and what is out will be very much live issues**  

### 2 **--** 

### 3 **MR. LLENZA: All the way through.** 

### 4 **MR. deLASKI: -- through this** 

### 5 **process.** 

### 6 **MR. LLENZA: Right.** 

### 7 **MR. deLASKI: And telling you today** 

### 8 **what should be in and what should be out** 

### 9 **strikes me as being an impossibility.** 

### 10 **MR. LLENZA: But we have to start** 

### 11 **somewhere.** 

### 12 **MR. deLASKI: Right. But I think** 

### 13 **it -- exactly, but --** 

### 14 **MR. LLENZA: So --** 

### 15 **MR. deLASKI: Thank you.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis.** 

### 17 **MR. STARR: Louis Starr, Northwest** 

### 18 **Energy Efficiency Alliance. I think I would** 

### 19 **encourage Department of Energy to investigate** 

### 20 **a definition of safety fans. A lot of times a** 

### 21 **safety fan can just be a regular fan that is** 

### 22 **pressurizing a stairwell and it doesn't really**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68**  **1 have -- the same fan could be used in another**  

### 2 **application.** 

### 3 **Also, fans in an actual building** 

### 4 **system can use -- the air handling system can** 

### 5 **be used to pressurize fans above and below a** 

### 6 **floor in order to do a smoke pressurization** 

### 7 **system. So unlike pumps where it might have a** 

### 8 **little more clearer defined definition, I** 

### 9 **would look into whether just a safety fan** 

### 10 **could just be a regular backward inclined fan** 

### 11 **that is sold for a lot of applications, has a** 

### 12 **high static pressure, and can maintain that.** 

### 13 **So I would encourage them to take a look at** 

### 14 **that.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Michael,** 

### 16 **you're next.** 

### 17 **MR. IVANOVICH: AMCA is prepared to** 

### 18 **talk about classes in more detail and make** 

### 19 **some recommendations for exemptions on safety** 

### 20 **fans. So we are going to --** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. And** 

### 22 **also, we wish to, as reflected in the comment**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69**  **1 box, get your details, your best thinking on**  

### 2 **these definitions.** 

### 3 **Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 4 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 5 **EEI. Again, in terms of -- you know, again,** 

### 6 **it is always making the definition, but then** 

### 7 **saying just have -- if possible, you know,** 

### 8 **just have the separate categories for the** 

### 9 **types of fans specifically you're talking** 

### 10 **about, such as smoke exhaust fan, you know, or** 

### 11 **stairwell pressurization fan, where, you know,** 

### 12 **maybe it's -- not only it's a safety fan but** 

### 13 **also there's a functionality where you know** 

### 14 **specifically it's not a general air handler.** 

### 15 **It can also pressurize a floor.** 

### 16 **It's a specific safety -- or I would also say** 

### 17 **health -- it could be carbon -- you know, a** 

### 18 **carbon monoxide detector in a garage where** 

### 19 **that -- there is a specific fan just for that,** 

### 20 **you know, example. So --** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Dave.** 

### 22 **MR. WINNINGHAM: Dave Winningham,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70**  **1 Allied air. We're a division of Lennox, and**  

### 2 **we manufacture a variety of residential and** 

### 3 **commercial products that employ, you know,** 

### 4 **fans and blowers that can be used in these.** 

### 5 **One of our key concerns is the** 

### 6 **potential passout line could take this** 

### 7 **regulation to the component level. You know,** 

### 8 **a fan manufacturer can manufacture a fan that** 

### 9 **can be used in a variety of products,** 

### 10 **residential, commercial, covered, non-covered,** 

### 11 **and it could be the same component.** 

### 12 **I would caution DOE in, you know,** 

### 13 **due care needs to be taken that we understand** 

### 14 **those intricacies, and the definitions around** 

### 15 **this is critical. But also, once it's** 

### 16 **defined, if it's something that's used in** 

### 17 **multiple applications, where does it fall?** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We have a --** 

### 19 **someone online, Jay Perkins has raised his** 

### 20 **hand or -- and so, Jay, go ahead. And speak** 

### 21 **loudly, and let's see if you come in -- if we** 

### 22 **can hear you here in the room.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71**  **1 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. This is actually**  

### 2 **Paul Doppel. Jay and I are on the same line.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 4 **MR. DOPPEL: And --** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Go ahead,** 

### 6 **Paul.** 

### 7 **MR. DOPPEL: With Mitsubishi** 

### 8 **Electric. And the comment that we have is** 

### 9 **that with the definition of industrial fans** 

### 10 **and blowers, commercial and industrial fans** 

### 11 **and blowers, I think it would be appropriate** 

### 12 **to specifically exclude those that are used** 

### 13 **for comfort, heating, and cooling, just to** 

### 14 **make sure that there isn't an overlap.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And so you** 

### 16 **need to say why.** 

### 17 **MR. DOPPEL: Well, just to avoid** 

### 18 **any confusion of -- because a lot of** 

### 19 **manufacturers do have air handlers/blowers** 

### 20 **that are used with outdoor units and split** 

### 21 **system applications. And there is a -- just** 

### 22 **want to make sure that those wouldn't be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72**  **1 included in this rulemaking, because there is**  

### 2 **already -- we are already incorporated within** 

### 3 **other systems.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Oh, okay.** 

### 5 **Okay. Thank you, Paul.** 

### 6 **MR. LLENZA: And this Charles** 

### 7 **Llenza, the Department of Energy. I suggested** 

### 8 **you would send us a written comment with the** 

### 9 **detailed reasons as to why we shouldn't be** 

### 10 **mixing apples and oranges I guess.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I'm eager to** 

### 12 **get to these definitions, but, Gary, go ahead.** 

### 13 **MR. FERNSTROM: Well, just a quick** 

### 14 **question. I don't quite understand why the** 

### 15 **components in another system that may be** 

### 16 **regulated shouldn't themselves be regulated,** 

### 17 **because it seems to me whether a fan is going** 

### 18 **into a furnace system or not it wouldn't hurt** 

### 19 **to have a fundamentally efficient fan to put** 

### 20 **in there. You know, compounding regulation** 

### 21 **doesn't seem to me to be so much a problem as** 

### 22 **an opportunity.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Is it**  

### 2 **Aniruddh?** 

### 3 **MR. ROY: You've got it correct.** 

### 4 **Aniruddh Roy, AHRI.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. ROY: To answer that question,** 

### 7 **as far as covered products are concerned,** 

### 8 **there are already efficiency metrics out there** 

### 9 **that capture the overall efficiency of a** 

### 10 **system. And the fan, as a component of a** 

### 11 **system, you know, as far as applied products** 

### 12 **are concerned, the fan, as a standalone** 

### 13 **components, its performance may be** 

### 14 **significantly different from how its** 

### 15 **performance is within the system.** 

### 16 **And so at least for covered** 

### 17 **products, as far as they are concerned, what** 

### 18 **we are seeing is that, you know, there are** 

### 19 **already regulations out there by DOE that are** 

### 20 **regulating these efficiencies, and these** 

### 21 **energy conservation standards adequately** 

### 22 **account for that energy consumption of the fan**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74**  **1 within the system.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Don** 

### 3 **Brundage.** 

### 4 **MR. BRUNDAGE: I would agree with** 

### 5 **AHRI that you should not be regulating a** 

### 6 **subproduct of a covered product. And I am** 

### 7 **reminded of some ways this was handled in some** 

### 8 **of the lighting products where there were** 

### 9 **requirements on how things were packaged and** 

### 10 **sold to differentiate retrofit products from** 

### 11 **other products. And I think some similar sort** 

### 12 **of solutions could be done here for things** 

### 13 **that are supplied as a component to other** 

### 14 **products.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Andrew, a** 

### 16 **follow on.** 

### 17 **MR. deLASKI: So I'm trying to find** 

### 18 **a reference in the framework, but I think DOE** 

### 19 **has already said not covering fans that are** 

### 20 **part of covered products. Am I right?** 

### 21 **They're out of the scope of the rule.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I saw**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75**  **1 Aniruddh and Dave. Go ahead.**  

### 2 **MR. deLASKI: If I could finish --** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Oh. I'm** 

### 4 **sorry, Andrew.** 

### 5 **MR. deLASKI: So I think Gary's** 

### 6 **question, I would hope people could still** 

### 7 **respond to that, because to me in the** 

### 8 **Department currently we have standards to** 

### 9 **cover components for lots of things --** 

### 10 **ballasts, light bulbs, furnace fans have a** 

### 11 **separate regulation.** 

### 12 **So there are -- it's not an unusual** 

### 13 **thing to have a standard that applies to a** 

### 14 **component. So I think the question here --** 

### 15 **and the challenge for the Department, as I see** 

### 16 **it, is that the Department regulates** 

### 17 **manufacturers. They don't regulate people who** 

### 18 **design systems onsite. It's not a Building** 

### 19 **Code we're talking about. We had that** 

### 20 **conversation earlier.** 

### 21 **So the opportunity in this kind of** 

### 22 **docket is to address the fan as defined**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76**  **1 through this process. And that may be defined**  

### 2 **more broadly or more narrowly; that's part of** 

### 3 **what we are going to be discussing later I** 

### 4 **think. But I'm going to respond to Gary's** 

### 5 **question about how does that -- how does** 

### 6 **regulating the fan as an individual product** 

### 7 **impede getting to better efficiency in some** 

### 8 **overall system in the field.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's let --** 

### 10 **Gary, you follow on, and then I'm going to go** 

### 11 **to Aniruddh, and then I'm going to go to** 

### 12 **Karim.** 

### 13 **MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So I have a** 

### 14 **quick comment. Let's carry this to the** 

### 15 **extreme. We regulate buildings and new** 

### 16 **construction. So why regulate any component** 

### 17 **that goes into buildings? Why do we even have** 

### 18 **an appliance standards program?** 

### 19 **PARTICIPANT: Good question.** 

### 20 **(Laughter.)** 

### 21 **MR. FERNSTROM: I mean, if you** 

### 22 **carry that --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: But, of**  

### 2 **course, we could have a lengthy discussion** 

### 3 **about codes, which would not be germane here.** 

### 4 **Aniruddh.** 

### 5 **MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, AHRI. My** 

### 6 **answer was just in response to Gary's initial** 

### 7 **question. And, again, AHRI is of the opinion** 

### 8 **that if you -- you know, if there are separate** 

### 9 **regulations for each component, what you are** 

### 10 **eventually doing, especially for covered** 

### 11 **equipment, you are eventually stifling** 

### 12 **innovation for the manufacturer, because now** 

### 13 **you are telling the manufacturer that you can** 

### 14 **only use this kind of a component in the** 

### 15 **system.** 

### 16 **And there are already existing** 

### 17 **energy conservation standards out there. So** 

### 18 **as long as the manufacturer meets those** 

### 19 **standards, it shouldn't matter what the** 

### 20 **manufacturer puts into the system.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 22 **Karim.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78**  **1 MR. AMRANE: Yes. Karim Amrane**  

### 2 **with AHRI. I would go a little bit further** 

### 3 **than that. Yes, I think it is clearly stated** 

### 4 **in the framework document that the regulation** 

### 5 **we are talking today does not apply to fans** 

### 6 **used in covered equipment. And that's fine.** 

### 7 **But let's say we take the example** 

### 8 **of rooftop units. Okay? They are regulated** 

### 9 **by DOE, but they are regulated, let's say, up** 

### 10 **to 63 ton. Now you are talking about, let's** 

### 11 **say, 64-ton unit, which is not regulated by** 

### 12 **DOE because that's where the regulation stops.** 

### 13 **Now, that equipment now its stand** 

### 14 **would be regulated by this -- the code that we** 

### 15 **are talking today. And that does not make** 

### 16 **sense at all.** 

### 17 **So for us as AHRI, we would like to** 

### 18 **exclude those products from this rulemaking** 

### 19 **totally, because those are system design, they** 

### 20 **are manufactured, and there are actually** 

### 21 **standards in place, although they are not** 

### 22 **maybe standards that DOE regulates today, but**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79**  **1 they are standards in ASHRAE 90.1. ASHRAE**  

### 2 **90.1 covers products below 63 tons, for** 

### 3 **example.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve** 

### 5 **Rosenstock.** 

### 6 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 7 **EEI. And, you know, I appreciate the** 

### 8 **information. And just as a follow on, think** 

### 9 **about it, if fans used for comfort heating and** 

### 10 **cooling were not excluded, then DOE would be** 

### 11 **making a standard for furnace fans. And I** 

### 12 **think a furnace fan is a blower fan. So under** 

### 13 **this rulemaking you would be making another** 

### 14 **standard for that blower fan; that could be a** 

### 15 **furnace fan.** 

### 16 **So if you say they should not be** 

### 17 **exempt, then guess what? You're dealing with** 

### 18 **two regulations for the same product.** 

### 19 **MR. ROGERS: Furnace fans are** 

### 20 **residential as defined now, right?** 

### 21 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: I know. But,** 

### 22 **again, I understand --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80**  **1 MR. ROGERS: Not part of this, but**  

### 2 **--** 

### 3 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- but for multi** 

### 4 **family there could be issues in terms of** 

### 5 **multi-family. And for the larger ones, it** 

### 6 **could be quote "commercial sized."** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Dave.** 

### 8 **MR. WINNINGHAM: And I recognize** 

### 9 **the intent here is to raise the energy** 

### 10 **efficiency of the products and it is something** 

### 11 **that we are all interested in. But just to** 

### 12 **the discussion we are having, a furnace, the** 

### 13 **component, the blower inside of that could** 

### 14 **have a commercial or industrial application.** 

### 15 **So you could have the regulation on** 

### 16 **the component itself, a furnace fan** 

### 17 **regulation, and then also the regulation of** 

### 18 **the final furnace product. All of these** 

### 19 **things enter into and add cost at some point.** 

### 20 **And we have to focus, what makes** 

### 21 **the most, you know, sense for the end product?** 

### 22 **A furnace -- and I'm just picking that as an**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81**  **1 example -- you can -- there are a variety of**  

### 2 **choices to increase the efficiency of a** 

### 3 **furnace. Some of them may involve very high** 

### 4 **internal static to improve the efficiency of** 

### 5 **the primary fuel source -- gas, for instance,** 

### 6 **or electricity.** 

### 7 **So there are compromises that are** 

### 8 **made in the design of the end product to get** 

### 9 **to the efficiency level that you are trying to** 

### 10 **seek. When you take the regulation to a** 

### 11 **component level, you could have unintended** 

### 12 **consequences by requiring efficiency levels of** 

### 13 **that component. They are applied very poorly,** 

### 14 **and the ultimate result is lower efficiency,** 

### 15 **not improved efficiency.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Right. So I** 

### 17 **think we're understanding, and I think we've** 

### 18 **now developed the logic here sufficiently.** 

### 19 **Okay? And so I'm eager to move on, Gary.** 

### 20 **MR. FERNSTROM: I just wanted to** 

### 21 **say thank you. I understand that argument.** 

### 22 **(Laughter.)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Let's**  

### 2 **start on definitions. These guys have** 

### 3 **developed some great -- and noting, just one** 

### 4 **caution here, in my experience definitions are** 

### 5 **always tough and take some time and scrutiny.** 

### 6 **So we are not going to get that level of it** 

### 7 **here today.** 

### 8 **So what you have developed will be** 

### 9 **in your written comments, of course. Let's** 

### 10 **just get a flavor for it right now, and let's** 

### 11 **start at the top and work our way down in** 

### 12 **Slide 21. Charles, so please -- Tim.** 

### 13 **MR. KUSKI: Tim Kuski representing** 

### 14 **AMCA. And the very first question here, 2-1,** 

### 15 **is a little bit truncated. If you read the** 

### 16 **entire question in the framework, it talks** 

### 17 **about our fans sold with motors or without** 

### 18 **VFDs.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 20 **MR. KUSKI: And I'd like to address** 

### 21 **that. The fan manufacturers sell the majority** 

### 22 **of our fans with motors, and most of them are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83**  **1 belt-driven. However, many of our OEM**  

### 2 **customers that buy our fans and integrate them** 

### 3 **into our products, they buy our fans less** 

### 4 **motors.** 

### 5 **Packaging fans with VFDs is not** 

### 6 **common for the fan manufacturers. We don't** 

### 7 **have a number yet, but we estimate it less** 

### 8 **than five percent of the time, much less, are** 

### 9 **we selling a VFD with a fan.** 

### 10 **And to follow up on what you and** 

### 11 **Michael were talking about, AMCA can supply** 

### 12 **DOE with more data regarding these kind of** 

### 13 **shipments, something we would have to do in a** 

### 14 **separate survey to our customers, and DRI is** 

### 15 **talking about timeframes.** 

### 16 **So even by the May 2nd written** 

### 17 **comment period, we could get back on that.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 19 **Great. Are you also in a position -- anybody** 

### 20 **at AMCA -- to address Items 2.2-2, 2-3, 2-4,** 

### 21 **especially definitions, cross-flow, blower,** 

### 22 **and safety fans.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84**  **1 MR. HARTLEIN: So Dan Hartlein from**  

### 2 **Twin City Fan speaking on behalf of AMCA. We** 

### 3 **believe that cross-flow fans should be exempt.** 

### 4 **We are going to get into the details and the** 

### 5 **rationale for that position as we go along** 

### 6 **today.** 

### 7 **On the --** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And as a** 

### 9 **consequence, you don't want to define it?** 

### 10 **MR. HARTLEIN: At this point, we** 

### 11 **don't. But we --** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 13 **MR. HARTLEIN: -- I mean, we can** 

### 14 **define the physical characteristics,** 

### 15 **obviously, of what a cross-flow fan is. But** 

### 16 **we believe they should be exempt, and, as I** 

### 17 **said, we'll get into that.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Keep** 

### 19 **going.** 

### 20 **MR. HARTLEIN: On 2.3, the** 

### 21 **recommended suggestion/definition for blowers,** 

### 22 **they are trying to draw a line between blowers**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85**  **1 and fans. AMCA does not really recognize a**  

### 2 **difference. We use the two terms** 

### 3 **interchangeably, and we would suggest that the** 

### 4 **DOE do the same. Okay?** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 6 **MR. HARTLEIN: On the 2.4, a** 

### 7 **comment on the suggested definitions for** 

### 8 **safety fans. One addition to that definition** 

### 9 **is reversible fans. There is a class of fans** 

### 10 **for tunnel ventilation, which operate in a** 

### 11 **reversible manner which has a compromise to** 

### 12 **efficiency that are there for safety.** 

### 13 **And we also would like to insert** 

### 14 **that there are fans that are dual purpose that** 

### 15 **are designed predominantly for their safety** 

### 16 **role. So we need to keep that in mind as** 

### 17 **well.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Does AMCA --** 

### 19 **maybe AMCA -- this would be a new question for** 

### 20 **you. And, of course, practically speaking, if** 

### 21 **there are a hundred definitions, that's very** 

### 22 **cumbersome. Right? So the more definitions**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86**  **1 the more difficult it is to do everything.**  

### 2 **But what about Steve Rosenstock's** 

### 3 **suggestion that safety fans be more** 

### 4 **differentiated? Is that something that you** 

### 5 **all could generally support?** 

### 6 **MR. HARTLEIN: Yes. I think as we** 

### 7 **come together, we can support some discussions** 

### 8 **in that arena.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 10 **MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John** 

### 11 **Cymbalsky, DOE. Is there a certification** 

### 12 **process that you go through that is different** 

### 13 **for safety fans, for these tunnel fans, for** 

### 14 **example? Do they get certified to a different** 

### 15 **--** 

### 16 **MR. HARTLEIN: They do. They** 

### 17 **actually get tested on almost a per-contract** 

### 18 **basis. So they are developed and tested per** 

### 19 **contract, because of the life safety** 

### 20 **requirements. And quite often they are** 

### 21 **actually tested at full temperature in order** 

### 22 **to demonstrate that they perform at those**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87**  **1 temperatures.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So** 

### 3 **there is potentially some line out there in** 

### 4 **the industry that we can look at to --** 

### 5 **MR. HARTLEIN: Yes.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. HARTLEIN: Those are -- it's** 

### 8 **NFPA 30.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Got it. Is** 

### 10 **that an efficiency-type measure?** 

### 11 **MR. HARTLEIN: There is an** 

### 12 **efficiency -- no, it's not. It's actually the** 

### 13 **performance of temperature and the** 

### 14 **requirements for the reversibility.** 

### 15 **MR. LLENZA: Safety.** 

### 16 **MR. HARTLEIN: It's a safety -- but** 

### 17 **it's not possible to design that fan at a high** 

### 18 **-- at the highest efficiency, because of the** 

### 19 **implications that come from the design for** 

### 20 **temperature.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So** 

### 22 **I'm kind of a nut about structure. You'll**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88**  **1 have to pardon me. So I want you to look at**  

### 2 **page 21 in your PowerPoint slides, everyone,** 

### 3 **if you would, please. And we'd like to** 

### 4 **receive comment on your -- on these** 

### 5 **definitions, whether you like them, how you** 

### 6 **might revise them, et cetera. And noting what** 

### 7 **has also already been said, I appreciate that.** 

### 8 **I do, Mark. Or Dan. Pardon me, Dan.** 

### 9 **MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky,** 

### 10 **DOE. And so for the fans that you would want** 

### 11 **exempt, it would be good to provide a written** 

### 12 **comment as to how the Department could** 

### 13 **distinguish those that would be safety** 

### 14 **related. So they go to this different safety** 

### 15 **rating, whereas other fans that aren't safety** 

### 16 **related don't certify to that specification.** 

### 17 **So that would help us, you know, delineate one** 

### 18 **from the other.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So do** 

### 20 **we have comments on commercial and industrial** 

### 21 **fan manufacturer, axial fan, centrifugal** 

### 22 **cross-flow and mixed flow, et cetera.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89**  **1 Or maybe -- Michael, go ahead.**  

### 2 **MR. IVANOVICH: AMCA has been** 

### 3 **working on a fan definition, a different** 

### 4 **definition of fan. And we are pretty far** 

### 5 **along, and we are going to provide a more** 

### 6 **detailed definition of a fan in our written** 

### 7 **comments. But it's too long. You know, it's** 

### 8 **got a lot of parts to it, because we are** 

### 9 **understanding that it has to be statutorily** 

### 10 **enforceable. And so we are very, very precise** 

### 11 **with this definition --** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Gotcha.** 

### 13 **MR. IVANOVICH: -- and we're going** 

### 14 **to provide it in written comment.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 16 **Excellent. Excellent. Additional and perhaps** 

### 17 **final comments on this segment, authority** 

### 18 **definitions and regulatory options? Because** 

### 19 **we're about to go to break.** 

### 20 **Andrew?** 

### 21 **MR. deLASKI: I just want to come** 

### 22 **back to the issue we were talking about a few**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90**  **1 moments ago. So on -- you know, it's on page**  

### 2 **2, that DOE says it's not considering fans** 

### 3 **that are components in regulated commercial** 

### 4 **products in this rulemaking, and I'm wondering** 

### 5 **why. Is there a legal reason why, or is it** 

### 6 **simply a determination that -- for the reasons** 

### 7 **that we have already heard, is there a** 

### 8 **tactical reason why?** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Betsy.** 

### 10 **MS. KOHL: So I can address at some** 

### 11 **level the legal issue that we have been** 

### 12 **discussing. And, obviously, it is open for** 

### 13 **comment. We want to make sure that there** 

### 14 **aren't duplicative standards. As you know,** 

### 15 **there are requirements for updating standards** 

### 16 **for certain products, right, and timelines,** 

### 17 **that sort of thing.** 

### 18 **And then there is also -- and this** 

### 19 **is components of consumer products, but it's** 

### 20 **in the definition of industrial equipment. So** 

### 21 **we want to make sure that we stay clear of** 

### 22 **that one, too. It's 6311(2)(A)(iii). So if**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91**  **1 you want to go take a look at that.**  

### 2 **So there are some legal issues that** 

### 3 **we have been discussing. But if you have** 

### 4 **input or comments that you would like to make,** 

### 5 **they are of course welcome at this early** 

### 6 **stage.** 

### 7 **MR. deLASKI: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Who** 

### 9 **else -- so, yes, please. Is it Mark?** 

### 10 **MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New** 

### 11 **York Blower Company on behalf of AMCA. I** 

### 12 **would like to just recognize in Item 2.7 that** 

### 13 **the definitions are tightly coupled with fan** 

### 14 **classifications, and AMCA would request that** 

### 15 **DOE consider a more granular approach, which** 

### 16 **we are prepared to share when we get to** 

### 17 **Section 5.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay,** 

### 19 **good. And Charles Kim joining us online,** 

### 20 **Charles, you are next. Please speak clearly** 

### 21 **and loudly.** 

### 22 **MR. KIM: Okay. There are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92**  **1 industrial blowers within the ratio of greater**  

### 2 **than 1.2. So, therefore, I am wondering if it** 

### 3 **would be a gap between the definition of** 

### 4 **blower away from the compressors.** 

### 5 **So right now my understanding is** 

### 6 **that U.S. DOE doesn't have any rulemaking or** 

### 7 **framework for our compressors. And it depends** 

### 8 **on how you define the specific ratio. Some** 

### 9 **blowers might not be defined by the fan or the** 

### 10 **compressor later on.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: John** 

### 12 **Cymbalsky.** 

### 13 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. So DOE does** 

### 14 **have a coverage determination out in the** 

### 15 **public view on compressors. So that will be** 

### 16 **handled under a separate rulemaking.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charles?** 

### 18 **Okay?** 

### 19 **MR. KIM: So anything greater than** 

### 20 **1.2, specific ratio greater than 1.2, will be** 

### 21 **covered by compressor.** 

### 22 **MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't have the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93**  **1 numbers on the top of my head, but we'll get**  

### 2 **back to you on that one.** 

### 3 **MR. KIM: My concern was -- yes.** 

### 4 **My concern was DOE should not have any gap.** 

### 5 **Some of the blowers is operating in specific** 

### 6 **ratio greater than 1.2. So if there is a** 

### 7 **blower that is not covered by a fan or the** 

### 8 **compressor later on, then it will be a lost** 

### 9 **child.** 

### 10 **MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky,** 

### 11 **DOE. Yes. We normally try to avoid creating** 

### 12 **loopholes and that kind of thing.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charles, and** 

### 14 **everyone participating, I think we have said** 

### 15 **this already today, but the Department really** 

### 16 **appreciates your detailed comments in writing.** 

### 17 **And then these issues, they all get addressed,** 

### 18 **so please do that.** 

### 19 **Charles, what is your affiliation?** 

### 20 **MR. KIM: Charles Kim from Southern** 

### 21 **Cal Edison Company. I have a plan to file** 

### 22 **written comments with the other utilities**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94**  **1 within California.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charles,** 

### 3 **would you say it again? Because at the front** 

### 4 **of that you were breaking up.** 

### 5 **MR. KIM: Charles Kim from Southern** 

### 6 **California Edison Company.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 8 **Thank you. Okay, Charles. Thank you.** 

### 9 **MR. KIM:** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's** 

### 11 **take a break. It's almost 10:30. We will** 

### 12 **take a break until 10:45. You must wear this** 

### 13 **badge visible while you're in the building.** 

### 14 **And there is a coffee shop on the** 

### 15 **ground floor. The restrooms are at both ends** 

### 16 **of this hall, both men's and women's restrooms** 

### 17 **at both ends of the hall.** 

### 18 **And we have a good start on it, and** 

### 19 **we need to try and keep being specific as we** 

### 20 **go along.** 

### 21 **(Whereupon, the proceedings in the foregoing** 

### 22 **matter went off the record at 10:27**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95**  **1 a.m. and went back on the record at**  

### 2 **10:50 a.m.)** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. And** 

### 4 **at the break, Michael approached me and said** 

### 5 **he would like -- they would like to return to** 

### 6 **definitions briefly, so let's do that before** 

### 7 **we turn to Sanaee.** 

### 8 **Michael, please. Or --** 

### 9 **MR. STEVENS: Hi. This is Mark** 

### 10 **Stevens. I'm with AMCA.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 12 **MR. STEVENS: And under** 

### 13 **Definitions, we just wanted to point out that** 

### 14 **our trade association has a little bit more** 

### 15 **restrictive definition of fan, and that we** 

### 16 **consider a fan a device that converts** 

### 17 **mechanical power to air power.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Well,** 

### 19 **definitions are important, and you all should** 

### 20 **--** 

### 21 **MR. STEVENS: We will be** 

### 22 **submitting --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: -- meet the**  

### 2 **deadline for submittals, but --** 

### 3 **MR. STEVENS: Right.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: -- give it** 

### 5 **your due diligence.** 

### 6 **MR. STEVENS: We definitely will.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay.** 

### 8 **Thank you.** 

### 9 **So now we are turning to Sanaee,** 

### 10 **regulatory regimes. And we are on Slide 27.** 

### 11 **MS. IYAMA: Okay. So I'm Sanaee** 

### 12 **Iyama with the Lawrence Berkeley National Lab,** 

### 13 **and I will start with the regulatory regimes.** 

### 14 **So as Charlie mentioned before,** 

### 15 **there is no statutory definition for** 

### 16 **commercial or industrial fans. And DOE may** 

### 17 **consider a definition that includes the motor** 

### 18 **drive and/or a VSD. This approach, for** 

### 19 **example, is used in Europe in their non** 

### 20 **residential fan regulation or their regulating** 

### 21 **fan inclusive of motors and controls.** 

### 22 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Question.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve,**  

### 2 **please.** 

### 3 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hi. Steve** 

### 4 **Rosenstock, EEI. On Slide 21 there was** 

### 5 **another proposed definition. So my question** 

### 6 **is, which definition is going to -- are you** 

### 7 **looking at?** 

### 8 **MS. IYAMA: Right. So here -- this** 

### 9 **definition is for fans defined as bare shaft** 

### 10 **fans. And in this next section we are** 

### 11 **discussing a potential definition that would** 

### 12 **include motor drive and controls.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You're** 

### 14 **referring to the definition on page 27. Say** 

### 15 **it again, what that is?** 

### 16 **MS. IYAMA: So it's a definition of** 

### 17 **commercial and industrial fans.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: On 27.** 

### 19 **MS. IYAMA: On Slide 27 that would** 

### 20 **include motor drive and/or the VSD. Again,** 

### 21 **there is no statutory definition for** 

### 22 **commercial and industrial fans, and this is a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98**  **1 discussion of a possible definition that would**  

### 2 **be inclusive of those components.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 4 **Steve.** 

### 5 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 6 **EEI. Thank you again. It's a more expansive** 

### 7 **definition, and my concern -- and I expressed** 

### 8 **it yesterday, I'll express it again -- I am a** 

### 9 **little worried that it is just -- you know,** 

### 10 **there might be other technologies that might** 

### 11 **be manufactured with a fan other than variable** 

### 12 **speed drives.** 

### 13 **And there is other technologies** 

### 14 **that can help improve the efficiency of a fan** 

### 15 **other than variable speed drive. So I would** 

### 16 **be very worried about for this definition just** 

### 17 **saying VSD. In my mind, it should be a more** 

### 18 **expansive or inclusive type of wording, such** 

### 19 **as energy -- fan energy control system or** 

### 20 **device or energy management device rather than** 

### 21 **just a VSD.** 

### 22 **Again, I know it is getting in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99**  **1 weeds, but I think it could be -- it can be**  

### 2 **pretty important because of the fact that I** 

### 3 **don't think that technologies or options** 

### 4 **should be limited, and this is kind of a -- it** 

### 5 **kind of limits it. It's a great technology,** 

### 6 **but it does limit it.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You're going** 

### 8 **to send these in in your comments, right,** 

### 9 **Steve?** 

### 10 **Charles Llenza.** 

### 11 **MR. LLENZA: Yes. I'd just** 

### 12 **encourage everybody to send your comments in** 

### 13 **with that respect. And, again, this is the** 

### 14 **framework document, so this is a proposal, and** 

### 15 **we make adjustments according to our comments.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And** 

### 17 **definitions are always tough. There's just no** 

### 18 **doubt about it.** 

### 19 **Rob, go ahead.** 

### 20 **MR. BOTELER: Yes. I would just** 

### 21 **comment, you know, in the motor world, we like** 

### 22 **the term variable speed or adjustable speed.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100**  **1 We don't like the term variable frequency**  

### 2 **drive, because then that limits us to** 

### 3 **induction motors. But when we say variable** 

### 4 **speed, we really include electric, electronic,** 

### 5 **or as well as mechanical adjustable speed.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank** 

### 7 **you.** 

### 8 **Sanaee, keep going.** 

### 9 **MS. IYAMA: Thank you. So those** 

### 10 **variable speed devices are controls that allow** 

### 11 **matching the rotational speed of the fan to** 

### 12 **match process requirement. And they benefit** 

### 13 **variable load applications. They may not** 

### 14 **appropriate for all types of application, and** 

### 15 **DOE is aware that some fans could be used in** 

### 16 **both constant and variable load applications.** 

### 17 **DOE is also aware that** 

### 18 **manufacturers cannot control if and how a VSD** 

### 19 **is used. And in their -- in our analysis we** 

### 20 **plan to conduct the analysis across the full** 

### 21 **spectrum of fan applications and characterize** 

### 22 **baseline conditions to establish the impacts**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101**  **1 of using VSDs on the field energy use.**  

### 2 **Depending on the fan definition,** 

### 3 **DOE is considering three regulatory regimes.** 

### 4 **If a fan is defined as a bare shaft fan, DOE** 

### 5 **is considering a bare shaft fan regulatory** 

### 6 **approach for all fan types, regardless of how** 

### 7 **they are sold. And that is regulatory regime** 

### 8 **number one.** 

### 9 **If fans are defined as inclusive of** 

### 10 **VSD if sold together, then we would have two** 

### 11 **sets of equipment classes -- fans without VSDs** 

### 12 **and fans with VSDs. And that's regulatory** 

### 13 **regime number two.** 

### 14 **If fans are defined as inclusive of** 

### 15 **a motor if sold together, then we would have,** 

### 16 **again, two sets of equipment classes, this** 

### 17 **time fans sold without motor, fans with** 

### 18 **motors. And that would be regulatory regime** 

### 19 **number three.** 

### 20 **And in the next section related to** 

### 21 **metrics, we will see how this impacts the** 

### 22 **process.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102**  **1 Here we have a comment box related**  

### 2 **to the regulatory regimes. Item 2-9, do you** 

### 3 **request comments on whether establishing** 

### 4 **standards for fan defined inclusive of the** 

### 5 **motor, transmission, and controls could** 

### 6 **increase the benefits of using VSDs in the** 

### 7 **field?** 

### 8 **2-10, DOE requests data and comment** 

### 9 **on whether fans are most often combined with** 

### 10 **motors, VSDs, or both, by the fan manufacturer** 

### 11 **or by fan distributors/contractors.** 

### 12 **2-11, DOE requests information on** 

### 13 **how often and in what circumstances the** 

### 14 **intended application is known when the fan is** 

### 15 **sold.** 

### 16 **And 2-12, DOE seeks comments on** 

### 17 **whether to consider establishing standards** 

### 18 **only for fans with fan diameters below a** 

### 19 **certain maximum or above a certain minimum.** 

### 20 **So that comment actually relates to the** 

### 21 **sections we covered before --** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103**  **1 MS. IYAMA: -- on the definitions.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's start** 

### 3 **with the first one, 2-9. Mark.** 

### 4 **MR. STEVENS: Yes. We have, you** 

### 5 **know, some comments we could make immediately** 

### 6 **on some of these definitions.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Please.** 

### 8 **MR. STEVENS: The first one is on** 

### 9 **VSDs. The first definition on page 8 refers** 

### 10 **to a VSD as a device that can control the** 

### 11 **speed of a motor or a fan, and then on page 15** 

### 12 **it is more restrictive, saying that a control** 

### 13 **using -- controlling the speed of a fan or a** 

### 14 **motor using voltage control. And we prefer** 

### 15 **the less restrictive definition, the one found** 

### 16 **on page 8.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 18 **MR. STEVENS: All right. The** 

### 19 **second one has to do with the definition of a** 

### 20 **bare shaft fan. Bare shaft fan, that** 

### 21 **definition is a European construct, something** 

### 22 **that is really not used here. We use the term**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104**  **1 driven or non-driven fans.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Michael.** 

### 3 **MR. IVANOVICH: This is Michael** 

### 4 **Ivanovich, AMCA International. It is kind of** 

### 5 **a question, really, you know, when we started** 

### 6 **this rulemaking process we had heard this idea** 

### 7 **floating about, the extended product approach** 

### 8 **from Europe being applied in the United** 

### 9 **States.** 

### 10 **And there was a question early on** 

### 11 **whether or not DOE had the authority to** 

### 12 **develop a regulation for extended products.** 

### 13 **And AMCA would like to hear some explanation** 

### 14 **as to how that was resolved.** 

### 15 **MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl, DOE** 

### 16 **OGC. We are still considering that issue. So** 

### 17 **if you have, again, input and analysis, we'd** 

### 18 **appreciate it.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, Louis --** 

### 20 **oh, go ahead. Follow on, Michael. Keep** 

### 21 **going.** 

### 22 **MR. IVANOVICH: So just to clarify,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105**  **1 even though the extended product approach is**  

### 2 **being proposed by DOE in the frameworks for** 

### 3 **pumps and fans, it is not completely** 

### 4 **determined whether or not you could regulate** 

### 5 **on extended --** 

### 6 **MS. KOHL: This is --** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Betsy,** 

### 8 **please get close.** 

### 9 **MS. KOHL: Sorry. Betsy Kohl, DOE** 

### 10 **GC. So this is not a proposal, right? That's** 

### 11 **the proposed rule. I know we kind of** 

### 12 **interchanged those terms. But this is an** 

### 13 **early stage framework document where we are** 

### 14 **still fleshing out all of those issues and** 

### 15 **seeking comment and input on them.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Go ahead.** 

### 17 **MR. IVANOVICH: I'm just -- since** 

### 18 **we're new to the process, it could be implied** 

### 19 **-- it seems inferred to us that they would** 

### 20 **have the authority to regulate that. That's** 

### 21 **all.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106**  **1 Louis.**  

### 2 **MR. STARR: Louis Starr with** 

### 3 **Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance. So Item** 

### 4 **2-9, it represents a substantial opportunity** 

### 5 **to save a lot of energy.** 

### 6 **And so one of the questions I had** 

### 7 **maybe a little bit for AMCA was, actually, I** 

### 8 **was looking at your In Motion magazine and it** 

### 9 **just mentioned that January 1st of 2013 they** 

### 10 **put in the FMEG requirements, which** 

### 11 **essentially addresses that extended product** 

### 12 **type of view of it.** 

### 13 **How has that affected -- I mean, it** 

### 14 **says it's eliminating 13 percent of your** 

### 15 **market of certain kind of fan. How -- I'm** 

### 16 **assuming that AMCA sells both in the American** 

### 17 **and European market. Have you seen that? How** 

### 18 **has that worked out for you? And has it been** 

### 19 **a positive or a negative experience?** 

### 20 **(Laughter.)** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: No comment** 

### 22 **at this time.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 107**  **1 MR. IVANOVICH: Our official**  

### 2 **response really is that it is kind of too** 

### 3 **early to tell. I mean, it's just starting, so** 

### 4 **it's really too early to tell.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 6 **Michael.** 

### 7 **Dan.** 

### 8 **MR. HARTLEIN: Yes. I wanted to** 

### 9 **just add an explanation about how -- something** 

### 10 **our industry does in the variable speed, which** 

### 11 **is very different than what you see in the** 

### 12 **pump world. Our industry is dominated by** 

### 13 **shipments with belt drives. A belt drive is** 

### 14 **mechanical speed adjustment, as Rob presented** 

### 15 **it earlier.** 

### 16 **What happens often is that once a** 

### 17 **commercial fan is in the field applied to a** 

### 18 **system, many of these drives are actually** 

### 19 **meant to be variable diameter or variable** 

### 20 **speed. So when the air balancer comes through** 

### 21 **and balances the product, he ends up setting** 

### 22 **an exact speed for the exact load and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 108**  **1 maximizes efficiency through that process.**  

### 2 **So the concept that those results** 

### 3 **aren't being achieved through -- because we** 

### 4 **are not using variable frequency drives,** 

### 5 **really, I think we have. I think the industry** 

### 6 **has found a very, very cost effective approach** 

### 7 **to set that exact operating speed and maximize** 

### 8 **that efficiency for that installation.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 10 **MR. IVANOVICH: How does the --** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Oh, just a** 

### 12 **second. So I thought variable speed drives,** 

### 13 **though, were a component that was a defined** 

### 14 **entity, and that's different from having** 

### 15 **someone who is capable of servicing a motor** 

### 16 **and a belt drive and creating the optimal,** 

### 17 **right?** 

### 18 **MR. HARTLEIN: Well, again, Dan** 

### 19 **Hartlein speaking for AMCA. That goes I guess** 

### 20 **to the definition of VSD --** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 22 **MR. HARTLEIN: -- as opposed to --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 109**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I'll just**  

### 2 **leave it there. Go ahead, Louis.** 

### 3 **MR. STARR: Maybe I could clarify I** 

### 4 **think what he's getting at. What he is** 

### 5 **referring to is whether -- kind of matching** 

### 6 **your fan and your load to the -- or the fan** 

### 7 **motor operation to the load.** 

### 8 **So it -- what I think -- the** 

### 9 **captured savings in this one is more the** 

### 10 **adjustable load profile. That is the savings** 

### 11 **you are trying to get, although there still** 

### 12 **could be some savings attained by being able** 

### 13 **to adjust that constant volume fan in the** 

### 14 **field in terms if your design changes down the** 

### 15 **road or if there are some other aspects of it.** 

### 16 **And assuming that a lot of the shift changes** 

### 17 **that you're talking about happen, so --** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes,** 

### 19 **go ahead, please. Say your name.** 

### 20 **MR. WAGNER: Greg Wagner, Morrison** 

### 21 **Products. I want to go back to that** 

### 22 **definition of bare shaft fan and --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 110**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Where is it,**  

### 2 **Greg?** 

### 3 **MR. WAGNER: Let's see. It's** 

### 4 **Slide 21.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 6 **MR. WAGNER: And while there is a** 

### 7 **great deal of product that is sold as belt** 

### 8 **drive fans and they do come with shafts and** 

### 9 **those things, there is a great deal of product** 

### 10 **that is sold as for -- intended for direct** 

### 11 **drive use, both with and without VSDs.** 

### 12 **How do you plan on differentiating** 

### 13 **between products that are sold as -- there is** 

### 14 **no shaft, it's a bare fan, versus ones that** 

### 15 **are sold as bare shaft? Because it is a** 

### 16 **little different in that application. Some** 

### 17 **are sold into -- where they are intended to be** 

### 18 **used with the housing, but they don't -- they** 

### 19 **are not sold with the housing, because it is** 

### 20 **part of the appliance or product that is going** 

### 21 **to be manufactured. So there is a whole other** 

### 22 **level of this.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 111**  **1 And the final thing is the question**  

### 2 **of, what is a commercial and industrial and** 

### 3 **how are you going to differentiate that?** 

### 4 **Because a lot of products are sold into both** 

### 5 **residential, consumer-type products, as well** 

### 6 **as --** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And this is** 

### 8 **a framework meeting where we are just fleshing** 

### 9 **this issues out. So if you have a** 

### 10 **recommendation about how these issues get** 

### 11 **addressed, because I don't think the** 

### 12 **Department is going to take a stand on this** 

### 13 **yet. Right?** 

### 14 **MR. WAGNER: Well, they are putting** 

### 15 **forth the framework for regulating something,** 

### 16 **and the question is, what is that something?** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Betsy?** 

### 18 **MR. WAGNER: There's a wide range** 

### 19 **of products that could be covered under the** 

### 20 **scope of this, which is as broad as I can say.** 

### 21 **MS. KOHL: So this is Betsy Kohl** 

### 22 **from DOE GC. Just to give you a little bit of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 112**  **1 your framework, the definition of industrial**  

### 2 **equipment talks about distribution for** 

### 3 **commercial uses. So that is sort of -- I** 

### 4 **mean, it's the fan that we're looking at, but,** 

### 5 **I mean, there are a couple of I guess --** 

### 6 **MR. WAGNER: Nuances.** 

### 7 **MS. KOHL: Yes. That we are** 

### 8 **looking at. So in order to frame your** 

### 9 **comments, it might be useful to look at that.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 11 **MR. WAGNER: Well, I guess that** 

### 12 **needs to be identified, what that is, because** 

### 13 **fans are sold into applications that are** 

### 14 **similar that go into both** 

### 15 **industrial/commercial, if you will, as well as** 

### 16 **consumer-type products. And it's the same** 

### 17 **product.** 

### 18 **MS. KOHL: Right.** 

### 19 **MR. WAGNER: So how are we** 

### 20 **differentiating between those? And then the** 

### 21 **other one is, what is a bare shaft?** 

### 22 **MS. KOHL: Right. Well, on your**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 113**  **1 former issue, I think what Doug is saying and**  

### 2 **what we have been trying to say is that this** 

### 3 **is an early stage document. So your input on** 

### 4 **where things are sold and what you think** 

### 5 **should be covered would be very useful.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Then,** 

### 7 **back to Sanaee.** 

### 8 **MS. IYAMA: So there's a second** 

### 9 **comment box related to the regulatory regimes.** 

### 10 **Can I --** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Let's** 

### 12 **make sure we finish. I didn't think we** 

### 13 **finished with this one yet. Let's scan** 

### 14 **through this, and see if we can get additional** 

### 15 **comment on these four items.** 

### 16 **Steve Rosenstock first.** 

### 17 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 18 **EEI. Please forgive me if I'm going to sound** 

### 19 **like a broken record here, but I'm a little** 

### 20 **worried, especially on 2-9. It says,** 

### 21 **"Increase the benefits of using VSDs in the** 

### 22 **field." This makes it sound like you are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 114**  **1 trying to push VSDs. And as I said before,**  

### 2 **there is other technologies that could be used** 

### 3 **with these products.** 

### 4 **And so in terms of extending -- you** 

### 5 **know, in terms of I'll say an extended** 

### 6 **product, if you're going to look at** 

### 7 **technologies that might be included with fans** 

### 8 **and motors, then it just can't be VSDs.** 

### 9 **There might be other technologies** 

### 10 **that currently exist or will future exist, and** 

### 11 **to say that you are only going to look at VSDs** 

### 12 **is very -- number one, it's limiting you.** 

### 13 **Number two, there are competitive issues** 

### 14 **involved if a regulation increases the cost of** 

### 15 **a VSD compared to its competitors or decreases** 

### 16 **the cost compared to its competitors.** 

### 17 **So I am -- I know it's just -- I** 

### 18 **know it might be wordsmithing or minor word,** 

### 19 **but I think if you are going to do this it has** 

### 20 **to be -- and it is going to go throughout, but** 

### 21 **it's VSD or other technologies or all other** 

### 22 **controls that can be used with these products,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 115**  **1 because otherwise it is -- I believe it is**  

### 2 **very -- it is just --** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We get your** 

### 4 **point.** 

### 5 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. And the** 

### 6 **second thing is --** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: No, we get** 

### 8 **it. And you can imagine the Department would** 

### 9 **want to put a specific issue like this in here** 

### 10 **to -- as a prompt to receive comment.** 

### 11 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: And --** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: John** 

### 13 **Cymbalsky.** 

### 14 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. We'd like --** 

### 15 **as we said yesterday, I think if you -- you** 

### 16 **can actually enumerate what those other** 

### 17 **control devices are called in your comment.** 

### 18 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Sure.** 

### 19 **MR. CYMBALSKY: I think yesterday** 

### 20 **you mentioned an on/off switch was one of** 

### 21 **them.** 

### 22 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, stage**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 116**  **1 controls or, you know, step function --**  

### 2 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.** 

### 3 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- controls or --** 

### 4 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Fine. Whatever** 

### 5 **they're called now and --** 

### 6 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.** 

### 7 **MR. CYMBALSKY: -- how they are** 

### 8 **used now. That would be great.** 

### 9 **MR. LLENZA: This is Charles** 

### 10 **Llenza, Department of Energy. Also, we are** 

### 11 **open to changing the nomenclature a little** 

### 12 **bit, like instead of calling it a VSD,** 

### 13 **mechanical, you know, devices, control devices** 

### 14 **of sorts or just propose something. We're** 

### 15 **open -- we're subject to that.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mark.** 

### 17 **MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New** 

### 18 **York Blower Company on behalf of AMCA. I'd** 

### 19 **like to address Item 2-11, how often and in** 

### 20 **what circumstances applications are** 

### 21 **understood. In terms of fan performance, we** 

### 22 **typically understand that air flow and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 117**  **1 pressure -- but that's only at one specific**  

### 2 **operating point at which the fan is sized and** 

### 3 **sold.** 

### 4 **For industrial applications, the** 

### 5 **intended application is often known, but many** 

### 6 **times it's down the channel, sales rep or even** 

### 7 **post the sales rep. And then, for commercial** 

### 8 **applications, it is less known for fans that** 

### 9 **are sold. And the distributors, it could be** 

### 10 **rarely known. You'd probably have to contact** 

### 11 **individual manufacturers to get more detailed** 

### 12 **information, but that was the consensus of our** 

### 13 **team.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay.** 

### 15 **Yes, please. Say your name.** 

### 16 **MR. TROMBLEY: Dan Trombley, ACEEE,** 

### 17 **in regards to the definition of VSD. I'm** 

### 18 **wondering if there is kind of two things that** 

### 19 **we are looking at here, one being a way to** 

### 20 **sort of statically change the speed of the** 

### 21 **fan, like the belt drive that they described** 

### 22 **-- that AMCA was describing earlier, that you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 118**  **1 basically do one -- so you can do it**  

### 2 **occasionally, like to update the system.** 

### 3 **But the other is more of an** 

### 4 **automatic control that is not -- just use of a** 

### 5 **lay term of real time. That includes some** 

### 6 **kind of variable speed drive with the sensors** 

### 7 **and controls to actually move it. So I'm** 

### 8 **wondering if there's -- that issue is explored** 

### 9 **here.** 

### 10 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank** 

### 11 **you. Yes.** 

### 12 **Did you wish to comment?** 

### 13 **MR. STEVENS: Just one comment on** 

### 14 **Number 2-12.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: This is** 

### 16 **Mark. Go ahead, Mark.** 

### 17 **MR. STEVENS: Mark Stevens from** 

### 18 **AMCA. I'm sorry. That AMCA concurs with the** 

### 19 **upper limit, the 98-inch upper limit that was** 

### 20 **in the framework document.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 22 **MR. STEVENS: But we wanted to call**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 119**  **1 attention to the fact that most labs can test**  

### 2 **sizes much smaller than 98 inches. They are** 

### 3 **typically in the 38-, 39-inch, or one meter** 

### 4 **fans as their maximum.** 

### 5 **But we don't find that to be a** 

### 6 **particular problem because we use the fan** 

### 7 **laws, the affinity laws, to calculate larger** 

### 8 **size performance from smaller size** 

### 9 **performance. And generally, because fan** 

### 10 **efficiency increases with size, it leads to** 

### 11 **conservative prediction of performance.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's** 

### 13 **move on to the next comment box.** 

### 14 **MS. IYAMA: Okay. So Item 2-14,** 

### 15 **DOE requests comments on covering fan plus** 

### 16 **motors with motor-powered requirements between** 

### 17 **125 watt and 500 kilowatts for this** 

### 18 **rulemaking.** 

### 19 **DOE requests comments on what** 

### 20 **percentage of fan motors are covered by the** 

### 21 **small and medium electric motor standards.** 

### 22 **DOE seeks comment on the market share by fan**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 120**  **1 type and applications of fans that are driven**  

### 2 **by equipment other than electric motors.** 

### 3 **DOE requests comments on fan** 

### 4 **transmission types, and DOE requests comments** 

### 5 **on the VSD sold with fans and whether there is** 

### 6 **efficiency variability amongst VSDs.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's start** 

### 8 **at the top. Mark.** 

### 9 **MR. STEVENS: Mark Stevens again** 

### 10 **from AMCA. We have a question on Item 2-14.** 

### 11 **It looks like this is a reference to EC 327.** 

### 12 **But the framework document wasn't clear as to** 

### 13 **what power was being referenced. 327 talks** 

### 14 **about motor input power, but the framework** 

### 15 **document wasn't clear as to what power was** 

### 16 **being referred to. Is this shaft power or** 

### 17 **name plate power or motor input power?** 

### 18 **MS. IYAMA: I believe it's the** 

### 19 **motor name plate power.** 

### 20 **MR. STEVENS: Motor name plate** 

### 21 **power? So it's different from 327.** 

### 22 **MS. IYAMA: I need to doublecheck**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 121**  **1 on this. I'm sorry. Unless --**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We'll have** 

### 3 **to check on that.** 

### 4 **MR. STEVENS: Okay.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve** 

### 6 **Rosenstock.** 

### 7 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you for that** 

### 8 **clarification. Steve Rosenstock, EEI. If** 

### 9 **it's motor input power, then you're really** 

### 10 **talking about -- with those type of power** 

### 11 **usages, you're basically talking about motors** 

### 12 **that are about one-eighth horsepower up to** 

### 13 **about one-half horsepower. It might be, you** 

### 14 **know, in that range.** 

### 15 **So, really, you are -- kW, I'm** 

### 16 **sorry, it's one-eighth horsepower up to about** 

### 17 **750 -- probably about 750 horsepower then. So** 

### 18 **that's quite the range, and in fact it is** 

### 19 **higher than the -- well, motors only go up to** 

### 20 **500 horse -- yes, that's quite the range.** 

### 21 **Yes. But you're talking as low as one-eighth** 

### 22 **of a horsepower.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 122**  **1 So, again, there is an issue there.**  

### 2 **And that could be in a whole bunch of, I'll** 

### 3 **say, residential/consumer products. So,** 

### 4 **again, that is -- using that, it's obviously a** 

### 5 **very huge scope that, you know, again, it's a** 

### 6 **matter of -- in terms of energy usage,** 

### 7 **especially going after the really small ones,** 

### 8 **I don't know if it's really -- for first** 

### 9 **rulemaking if you really wanted to go that** 

### 10 **low.** 

### 11 **Thank you.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So I'm** 

### 13 **looking -- Sanaee, I'm looking at 2-14. What** 

### 14 **were you hoping to get by way of comment with** 

### 15 **this question? I'm not quite clear myself.** 

### 16 **MS. IYAMA: I think this is also** 

### 17 **referencing to the European regulation,** 

### 18 **because they have those limits on the motors** 

### 19 **that are within their fan regulation.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 21 **MS. IYAMA: And so it's just to** 

### 22 **request feedback on what stakeholders here**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 123**  **1 have to say about these criterias that --**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 3 **MS. IYAMA: -- Europe is using.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So I don't** 

### 5 **think we've received any comment on this yet.** 

### 6 **What about this range, any comments on that?** 

### 7 **Michael?** 

### 8 **MR. IVANOVICH: Michael Ivanovich,** 

### 9 **AMCA International. AMCA advocates that the** 

### 10 **lower range be greater than five horsepower to** 

### 11 **be consistent with 90.1 2013, and our IECC** 

### 12 **proposal for IECC 2015. This lower range** 

### 13 **would accommodate what we consider to be a** 

### 14 **reasonable Phase 1 approach to regulating** 

### 15 **fans, as Steve Rosenstock pointed out. Great** 

### 16 **segue, Steve.** 

### 17 **That this net being cast by the** 

### 18 **framework document is huge, and we think that** 

### 19 **this is -- it would be a tremendous burden on** 

### 20 **small businesses, you know, that compromise 80** 

### 21 **percent of our membership.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 124**  **1 covered below five horsepower.**  

### 2 **MR. IVANOVICH: That's right.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary.** 

### 4 **MR. IVANOVICH: Five horsepower --** 

### 5 **excuse me. Not covered five horsepower and** 

### 6 **below.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Right,** 

### 8 **right.** 

### 9 **MR. FERNSTROM: So Gary Fernstrom** 

### 10 **for the California utilities. We support** 

### 11 **DOE's recommended range in the framework from** 

### 12 **125 watts to 500 kW, because although there** 

### 13 **may be relatively less savings with the** 

### 14 **smaller size equipment, there is pervasively a** 

### 15 **lot more of it.** 

### 16 **And we shouldn't forego the** 

### 17 **opportunity to look at cost effective energy** 

### 18 **efficiency improvement across the broad range** 

### 19 **of product in the market, particularly those** 

### 20 **smaller units that are utilized by small** 

### 21 **businesses where the cost of their operation** 

### 22 **is reflected in their utility bills.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 125**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.**  

### 2 **Louis.** 

### 3 **MR. STARR: One of the things, I** 

### 4 **think the thought process is kind of getting** 

### 5 **those -- the European Union and the American** 

### 6 **standard to kind of match up in terms of** 

### 7 **having to produce to more than one market.** 

### 8 **But perhaps another thought might** 

### 9 **be is kind of limiting it to three-phased** 

### 10 **motors, and that would be probably in the half** 

### 11 **to one horsepower range as a bottom limit, and** 

### 12 **then go on up to -- some are higher limit.** 

### 13 **That makes sense.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank** 

### 15 **you.** 

### 16 **Dan?** 

### 17 **MR. HARTLEIN: Yes. I'm going to** 

### 18 **take on 2-16, if we're ready to move on.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes.** 

### 20 **MR. HARTLEIN: So on 2-16, AMCA** 

### 21 **does not have that data, so we are not in a** 

### 22 **position to present that at this time.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 126**  **1 On 2-17, I'm just going to go**  

### 2 **through a few of these in order --** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Please do.** 

### 4 **MR. HARTLEIN: -- if that's okay.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That's good.** 

### 6 **MR. HARTLEIN: On 2-17, we believe** 

### 7 **that -- in the commercial business that the** 

### 8 **fans are always driven by an electric motor.** 

### 9 **However, the industrial business within these** 

### 10 **categories are some fans that can become steam** 

### 11 **turbine-driven, and we have seen some** 

### 12 **combustion engine drives as well in this** 

### 13 **range.** 

### 14 **On 2-18, DOE requests comment on** 

### 15 **transmission types to be considered in the** 

### 16 **rulemaking, and we believe that the** 

### 17 **transmission types that have been defined are** 

### 18 **adequate.** 

### 19 **And on 2-19, DOE requests comment** 

### 20 **on the types of VSD sold with fans and whether** 

### 21 **there is efficiency variability, and AMCA** 

### 22 **would just like to reiterate that we really**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 127**  **1 don't have the expertise in this area, because**  

### 2 **more often than not we are not selling the** 

### 3 **variable speed drive or the variable frequency** 

### 4 **drive in this case. So it's outside of our** 

### 5 **realm.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. HARTLEIN: Okay?** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 9 **That was systematic.** 

### 10 **Andrew.** 

### 11 **MR. deLASKI: Just a follow up to** 

### 12 **Michael on the first question there on the** 

### 13 **range.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Andrew, I'm** 

### 15 **sorry. You need to get closer.** 

### 16 **MR. deLASKI: I understand that the** 

### 17 **existing definitions used in ASHRAE cover five** 

### 18 **horsepower and greater.** 

### 19 **MR. IVANOVICH: Over five** 

### 20 **horsepower.** 

### 21 **MR. deLASKI: Over five horsepower,** 

### 22 **so greater than five horsepower.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 128**  **1 MR. IVANOVICH: Yes.**  

### 2 **MR. deLASKI: Great. Thanks for** 

### 3 **that clarification. You know, to me this is a** 

### 4 **data question, and the data question is, you** 

### 5 **know, what are the -- in terms of the total** 

### 6 **horsepower sold to the marketplace, so what --** 

### 7 **how much horsepower is being sold that's under** 

### 8 **five horsepower?** 

### 9 **And what is the opportunity to** 

### 10 **improve efficiency in that -- those products?** 

### 11 **So it really comes down to a data question. I** 

### 12 **think one of my colleagues said that there is** 

### 13 **an ASHRAE paper suggesting maybe a third of** 

### 14 **horsepower.** 

### 15 **So my understanding is that there** 

### 16 **is a lot of horsepower going out there. I** 

### 17 **don't know what the opportunity is there, but** 

### 18 **it strikes me as more than a de minimis** 

### 19 **portion of the market. Is that a fair** 

### 20 **characterization?** 

### 21 **MR. IVANOVICH: Well, a couple of** 

### 22 **points on that. One of them is that our rough**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 129**  **1 estimates based on the data that are available**  

### 2 **from our members today, we estimate that** 

### 3 **keeping it above five horsepower will still** 

### 4 **address 73 percent of the connected horsepower** 

### 5 **load in energy usage.** 

### 6 **However, just to bring out, you** 

### 7 **know, we're not going to fight -- or, you** 

### 8 **know, we're going to concede the upper range** 

### 9 **on the limit, so there is a lot of opportunity** 

### 10 **on the upper range. And we also think that** 

### 11 **although that energy savings may be out there,** 

### 12 **we are advocating a more phased approach to** 

### 13 **addressing it.** 

### 14 **I mean, again, going after that** 

### 15 **large of a scope on your first round would be** 

### 16 **very difficult.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So say a** 

### 18 **little more about the phased approach. How** 

### 19 **would you see that?** 

### 20 **MR. IVANOVICH: Well, it's just** 

### 21 **like you didn't regulate motors all at once.** 

### 22 **You didn't regulate every type and every size**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 130**  **1 of motor. The way that this framework is**  

### 2 **scoping out it looks like you are regulating** 

### 3 **every type of fan, almost every size, using** 

### 4 **commercial and industrial buildings.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charles** 

### 6 **Llenza. Coming back to you, Gary.** 

### 7 **MR. LLENZA: Yes. This doesn't** 

### 8 **limit us from separating those smaller motors** 

### 9 **and just doing a different level of standard** 

### 10 **for those motors. So -- I mean, for those** 

### 11 **fans, so --** 

### 12 **MR. IVANOVICH: That's true, but we** 

### 13 **are also talking about businesses that would** 

### 14 **have to be compliant with those regulations** 

### 15 **right off the bat. So --** 

### 16 **MR. LLENZA: Wow.** 

### 17 **MR. IVANOVICH: -- the regulatory** 

### 18 **burden is still there, even though they might** 

### 19 **not have to redesign it.** 

### 20 **MR. LLENZA: Yes.** 

### 21 **MR. IVANOVICH: But we're talking** 

### 22 **six years out, so --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 131**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Gary**  

### 2 **Fernstrom.** 

### 3 **MR. FERNSTROM: I'm puzzled why we** 

### 4 **are concerned about limiting the energy saving** 

### 5 **opportunity in deference to their regulatory** 

### 6 **burden to some segment of the market. There** 

### 7 **is a recognized regulatory burden with any of** 

### 8 **these standards.** 

### 9 **And if we are going to take the** 

### 10 **opportunity to invoke them for the** 

### 11 **environmental benefit, and other benefits they** 

### 12 **bring, we should address the greatest** 

### 13 **opportunity possible when we do these** 

### 14 **rulemakings, not exclude some significant,** 

### 15 **potentially, as Andrew noted, portion of the** 

### 16 **savings just because we don't want to regulate** 

### 17 **everything at once.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Andrew.** 

### 19 **MR. deLASKI: I mean, to me --** 

### 20 **well, I'll just come back to my first comment,** 

### 21 **a data question. And, Michael, thank you for** 

### 22 **the data point on the 73 percent or -- in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 132**  **1 scope that you are suggesting, right. And**  

### 2 **that's the kind of data that we are going to** 

### 3 **be looking for to kind of understand where the** 

### 4 **opportunity lies.** 

### 5 **So then the other piece of that** 

### 6 **question is -- the other piece of that** 

### 7 **question that is going to be data-driven is** 

### 8 **what is the savings opportunity within each of** 

### 9 **these places, right?** 

### 10 **So in general, again, very broad** 

### 11 **generalities, we tend to think that in larger** 

### 12 **equipment the market does a better job of** 

### 13 **driving efficiency, because there is more** 

### 14 **savings there than it does in smaller** 

### 15 **equipment. And in smaller equipment, in** 

### 16 **general, we tend to find that the barriers to** 

### 17 **efficiency are more pervasive.** 

### 18 **So, because the savings may** 

### 19 **actually be small for an individual consumer** 

### 20 **but large for society. So we're hesitant to** 

### 21 **sort of say here at the beginning, under five** 

### 22 **horsepower let's just cut it out. I hear you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 133**  **1 I understand that there is -- that has impacts**  

### 2 **for small manufacturers that we have to take** 

### 3 **into consideration.** 

### 4 **But I'm hesitant to say here** 

### 5 **already we know that's not where a big chunk** 

### 6 **of the savings opportunity is that we should** 

### 7 **be considering. So, and again, to me it's all** 

### 8 **about the data.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Rob.** 

### 10 **MR. BOTELER: Yes. The motor rules** 

### 11 **referenced a few times, and, you know, in the** 

### 12 **motor rule we did -- we started out with** 

### 13 **general purpose product and we started out** 

### 14 **with one to 200 horsepower.** 

### 15 **And one of the things that it did** 

### 16 **is it allowed our engineers to go through and,** 

### 17 **you know, there's a perception that we as** 

### 18 **manufacturers have endless resources of design** 

### 19 **and manufacturing and a lot of capability.** 

### 20 **And working for a multi-billion** 

### 21 **dollar a year company, when you sort it down** 

### 22 **to the size of the division, we really don't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 134**  **1 have a huge amount of resources. And it**  

### 2 **allowed us to focus our resources on the core** 

### 3 **products, the low hanging fruit, and at the** 

### 4 **same time I think it gave our engineers an** 

### 5 **opportunity to explore new energy options with** 

### 6 **the general purpose product that when we were** 

### 7 **ready to then move into the EISA regulations** 

### 8 **and expand to other products and increase the** 

### 9 **efficiency we would gain some knowledge along** 

### 10 **the way, and it was -- it really benefitted** 

### 11 **the whole process.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve** 

### 13 **Rosenstock.** 

### 14 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 15 **EEI. About 2-16, about percentage of fan** 

### 16 **owners covered by the small and medium** 

### 17 **electric motor standards, I know that small** 

### 18 **motor standards take effect in I think March** 

### 19 **of 2015. I'll say that goes from about --** 

### 20 **PARTICIPANT: (Off-microphone** 

### 21 **comment.)** 

### 22 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 135**  **1 Sorry. He has that date written on his**  

### 2 **calendar, I bet.** 

### 3 **I'm just -- this is -- it's a** 

### 4 **question in terms of once this date -- and,** 

### 5 **again, in terms of Andrew, in terms of data,** 

### 6 **suppose the answer is two-thirds, three** 

### 7 **quarters, 90 percent, 100 percent. What is** 

### 8 **DOE's response? What is DOE -- is DOE still** 

### 9 **going to have -- look at regulating those** 

### 10 **motors under this rulemaking?** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,** 

### 12 **Andrew.** 

### 13 **All right, Steve. Who else did I** 

### 14 **-- did I see somebody else over here? No.** 

### 15 **Yes, please. I thought so. Please state your** 

### 16 **name for the record.** 

### 17 **MR. SMITH: I'm Wade Smith from** 

### 18 **AMCA. I just want to read into the record** 

### 19 **also the smaller sized equipment that use the** 

### 20 **smaller motors, today those products are** 

### 21 **manufactured at -- with higher levels of** 

### 22 **tooling, and, thus, enhancing their**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 136**  **1 performance requires a larger investment**  

### 2 **relative to the return.** 

### 3 **And the smaller products are also** 

### 4 **supported by many very small companies who are** 

### 5 **members of our association, whose resources** 

### 6 **and availability of resources to deal with** 

### 7 **this rulemaking are less than our larger** 

### 8 **companies.** 

### 9 **I'll just reiterate, 97 percent of** 

### 10 **our members have annual sales of less than** 

### 11 **$50 million, and 80 percent of our members** 

### 12 **have sales of less than $10 million a year.** 

### 13 **So this is a -- our choice of the five** 

### 14 **horsepower limit is driven by the realization** 

### 15 **that it is a segment of the connected load** 

### 16 **which requires much more investment for much** 

### 17 **less return, and which is much more impactful** 

### 18 **on small businesses.** 

### 19 **Thus, we felt that this rulemaking** 

### 20 **should focus on the larger size units and** 

### 21 **allow the smaller units to come along at a** 

### 22 **later time.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 137**  **1 Thank you.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 3 **That was helpful. Meg, did you --** 

### 4 **MS. WALTNER: I have a follow-up** 

### 5 **question for you, Wade, actually. What** 

### 6 **percentage would you say of the under-five** 

### 7 **horsepower -- your members that sell into the** 

### 8 **under-five horsepower market also sell into** 

### 9 **European market? What is the crossover like** 

### 10 **there?** 

### 11 **MR. SMITH: It's a very small** 

### 12 **number. I should add that fan products tend** 

### 13 **not to ship across continents. Designs are** 

### 14 **exported, and product is manufactured. In** 

### 15 **other words, the same product will be** 

### 16 **manufactured on more than one continent, but** 

### 17 **it is very, very seldom that a product might** 

### 18 **be made in the United States and shipped to** 

### 19 **Europe, or vice versa.** 

### 20 **MS. WALTNER: But is it the same** 

### 21 **manufacturers selling into that under-five** 

### 22 **horsepower market in both places or --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 138**  **1 MR. SMITH: Not of the small**  

### 2 **businesses.** 

### 3 **MS. WALTNER: Okay.** 

### 4 **MR. SMITH: There are some large** 

### 5 **member companies who work on more than one** 

### 6 **continent, some of whom work worldwide, yes.** 

### 7 **MS. WALTNER: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 8 **MR. deLASKI: Wait. Don't go away.** 

### 9 **(Laughter.)** 

### 10 **Another followup question. You** 

### 11 **know, this is -- the scope issue is one that,** 

### 12 **you know, we want to be able to -- be able to** 

### 13 **understand here. The thing I want to** 

### 14 **understand is you said two points about the** 

### 15 **smaller fans -- one, that investing in them** 

### 16 **requires -- is a higher level of tooling than** 

### 17 **what -- and so more of --** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Talk to the** 

### 19 **mic, Andrew.** 

### 20 **MR. deLASKI: I'm trying to talk to** 

### 21 **Wade, too.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 139**  **1 know. I know.**  

### 2 **MR. deLASKI: He's behind me, for** 

### 3 **those who are --** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: He'll accept** 

### 5 **it. Go ahead.** 

### 6 **MR. deLASKI: That more automation** 

### 7 **is -- it's a more automated process than** 

### 8 **manufacturing. Is that what I'm hearing?** 

### 9 **MR. SMITH: Yes.** 

### 10 **MR. deLASKI: But then also that** 

### 11 **there is a small manufacturer. So those** 

### 12 **things sort of seem to be in conflict, that** 

### 13 **those -- so are small manufacturers highly** 

### 14 **automated, or is it that the small guys are** 

### 15 **also trying to play against folks who are** 

### 16 **bigger but highly automated?** 

### 17 **MR. SMITH: Yes.** 

### 18 **(Laughter.)** 

### 19 **MR. deLASKI: The big guys are** 

### 20 **there, too, and that's --** 

### 21 **MR. SMITH: Yes. I mean, you know,** 

### 22 **in our internal discussions, you know, we have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 140**  **1 small companies at the table, some of whom are**  

### 2 **making product with tooling that was created** 

### 3 **in the 1950s and 1960s, and this is a small** 

### 4 **family-owned business that has developed these** 

### 5 **tools out of oak, for example, that, you know,** 

### 6 **they still use today and to take 50 years of** 

### 7 **tool and die making for this small company and** 

### 8 **say, "Now, in five years, you have to change** 

### 9 **it all."** 

### 10 **They will just button the -- they** 

### 11 **will just close their doors. That's the only** 

### 12 **thing they can do, really.** 

### 13 **MR. deLASKI: Right. No, I get the** 

### 14 **point. And do you have a feel for -- or does** 

### 15 **AMCA have any feel for what portion of that** 

### 16 **market is served by the small manufacturers** 

### 17 **who are -- I wouldn't say making it out of oak** 

### 18 **but using oak equipment, but those small** 

### 19 **manufacturers who are in that category versus** 

### 20 **the larger players who are --** 

### 21 **MR. SMITH: Well, I would say this,** 

### 22 **that since 97 percent of our members are much**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 141**  **1 smaller than the Federal Government definition**  

### 2 **of a small business, it is hard to imagine** 

### 3 **that we would -- I mean, first of all, I don't** 

### 4 **know the answer to the question.** 

### 5 **MR. deLASKI: Okay.** 

### 6 **MR. SMITH: So it would require** 

### 7 **some research. But take on faith that there** 

### 8 **is an awful lot of market share and impact on** 

### 9 **these small manufacturers in this size range.** 

### 10 **MR. deLASKI: Great. Thanks for** 

### 11 **that explanation.** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We have a** 

### 13 **follow-on. Go ahead.** 

### 14 **MR. WAGNER: Greg Wagner. As an** 

### 15 **employee of a small manufacturer of fans, I** 

### 16 **understand the issues that Wade talked about.** 

### 17 **We do have highly automated processes, and it** 

### 18 **is very expensive to change them. But we are** 

### 19 **a small company. We don't have the resources** 

### 20 **that I see employed around here today to put** 

### 21 **this rulemaking in place.** 

### 22 **We make fans that go into both**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 142**  **1 residential as well as commercial and**  

### 2 **industrial applications. The question is** 

### 3 **going to be, how do you differentiate between** 

### 4 **them? How do you manage that process? We** 

### 5 **need to get an understanding of what that is** 

### 6 **in order to be able to understand what we are** 

### 7 **going to have to do to be able to comply with** 

### 8 **that.** 

### 9 **One of the questions that wasn't** 

### 10 **asked is, what percentage of those fans under** 

### 11 **that five horsepower are already covered** 

### 12 **product? Karim and the AHRI folks maintain** 

### 13 **that a great deal -- a large number of those** 

### 14 **are already covered products under other** 

### 15 **regulation.** 

### 16 **And this increasing burden of extra** 

### 17 **regulation is a challenge for a small** 

### 18 **manufacturer like us.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary.** 

### 20 **MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom. In** 

### 21 **this framework meeting, I think this issue has** 

### 22 **been well framed. I would say rather than**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 143**  **1 speak anecdotally about it and dismiss this**  

### 2 **opportunity arbitrarily we ought to include it** 

### 3 **in the rulemaking and study it, so that we can** 

### 4 **have an objective, factual, on-the-record** 

### 5 **understanding of what the costs and** 

### 6 **opportunities are, and then a good decision** 

### 7 **can be made about what to do with it.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Sounds good.** 

### 9 **I'm glad we've raised it. You're next.** 

### 10 **MR. GOTHAM: Aaron Gotham with** 

### 11 **Greenheck Fan. And we are one of the larger** 

### 12 **manufacturers in the industry. So a couple of** 

### 13 **questions to follow up on the question about** 

### 14 **Europe. I would say there is almost no** 

### 15 **crossover between U.S. and European selling of** 

### 16 **--** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We can't** 

### 18 **hear you, so just get -- yes, thank you.** 

### 19 **MR. GOTHAM: Okay.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I think it's** 

### 21 **on.** 

### 22 **MR. GOTHAM: Okay. Within our**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 144**  **1 industry. So we do very little selling,**  

### 2 **almost none in Europe, actually, and we are** 

### 3 **one of the larger players. So there -- unlike** 

### 4 **the pump manufacturers, it seems like there's** 

### 5 **a lot of EU and U.S. kind of commonality, very** 

### 6 **different in the fan industry. It really is** 

### 7 **different continents, very different worlds,** 

### 8 **for most of our products.** 

### 9 **The second thing just talking about** 

### 10 **the small businesses, I do think -- and,** 

### 11 **again, we are one of the larger ones. I think** 

### 12 **it would put the small businesses at a** 

### 13 **competitive disadvantage. I think that we do** 

### 14 **have the resources to react faster than the** 

### 15 **small guys, and I do think that, speaking on** 

### 16 **behalf of small guys, that would really be** 

### 17 **problematic for them.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank** 

### 19 **you. I think it would be good for us to keep** 

### 20 **going. We answered all the questions here in** 

### 21 **this comment box. Any other contributions** 

### 22 **before we move on?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 145**  **1 (No response.)**  

### 2 **Okay. Sanaee.** 

### 3 **MS. IYAMA: Okay. So next I will** 

### 4 **go over the test procedure and efficiency** 

### 5 **metrics section.** 

### 6 **So when DOE establishes a standard,** 

### 7 **manufacturers must use a DOE test procedure to** 

### 8 **ensure compliance with that standard, and to** 

### 9 **make the representation of the energy use of** 

### 10 **their product.** 

### 11 **And as was mentioned earlier, DOE** 

### 12 **is developing a test procedure for commercial** 

### 13 **and industrial fans, and the first step in** 

### 14 **that process is to review existing industry** 

### 15 **test procedures.** 

### 16 **Current industry test procedures** 

### 17 **include the AMCA 210, AMCA 220, and the ISO** 

### 18 **5801 test procedures. AMCA 210 is applicable** 

### 19 **to all fan types and is widely recognized and** 

### 20 **used in the U.S. AMCA 220 includes** 

### 21 **specifications for air curtain testing, and** 

### 22 **ISO 5801 is an international standard similar**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 146**  **1 to AMCA 210.**  

### 2 **Both AMCA 210 and the ISO standard** 

### 3 **allow testing fans under four test** 

### 4 **configurations, also referred to as** 

### 5 **installation categories. And each of them** 

### 6 **impact the performance output of the test** 

### 7 **procedure.** 

### 8 **Therefore, in order to ensure that** 

### 9 **products are tested in a consistent way and** 

### 10 **provide comparable results, DOE is considering** 

### 11 **specifying a single test configuration for** 

### 12 **equipment class in its DOE test procedure.** 

### 13 **And here we have comment boxes** 

### 14 **related to test procedure and efficiency** 

### 15 **metrics. But first on test procedure DOE** 

### 16 **requests comment on the use of AMCA 210 as a** 

### 17 **basis for the development of a DOE test** 

### 18 **procedure.** 

### 19 **DOE requests comment on AMCA** 

### 20 **Standard 220 for measuring performance of** 

### 21 **cross-flow fans, and DOE requests comment on** 

### 22 **using a clean air only test procedure for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 147**  **1 dust, air, or material handling fans.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mark.** 

### 3 **MR. STEVENS: Mark Stevens from** 

### 4 **AMCA. I'd like to comment, actually, on these** 

### 5 **next three items.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Please.** 

### 7 **MR. STEVENS: We do agree with** 

### 8 **using AMCA 210 for testing fans. We have some** 

### 9 **comments later on regarding the scope and** 

### 10 **classifications that will modify the comments** 

### 11 **I am making right now. But for induced flow** 

### 12 **fans, I'd like to comment now that AMCA 260** 

### 13 **should be used for induced flow fans.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Say it** 

### 15 **again, for?** 

### 16 **MR. STEVENS: Induced flow fans.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Induced.** 

### 18 **Okay.** 

### 19 **MR. STEVENS: Regarding 3.3,** 

### 20 **regarding using the AMCA 220 for cross-flow** 

### 21 **fans, we would say no cross-flow fans. AMCA** 

### 22 **Standard 220 is a test standard for air**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 148**  **1 curtains. It is not for individual fans.**  

### 2 **Cross-flow fans would be tested under AMCA** 

### 3 **210.** 

### 4 **But, again, later we've got some** 

### 5 **more comment on whether or not cross-flow fans** 

### 6 **should be included in the scope of the** 

### 7 **rulemaking.** 

### 8 **Regarding 3.6, we propose that,** 

### 9 **yes, material handling fans should be tested** 

### 10 **using clean air. Efficiency of the slurry, I** 

### 11 **suppose you could say, of the material going** 

### 12 **through a material handling fan is increased** 

### 13 **by the material in that slurry. But** 

### 14 **efficiency of a fan is not dependent on** 

### 15 **density.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank** 

### 17 **you. So that was a pretty comprehensive** 

### 18 **review of those three additional comments on** 

### 19 **those three.** 

### 20 **Okay. We are moving on.** 

### 21 **MS. IYAMA: Okay. Two more** 

### 22 **comments. DOE requests comment on which test**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 149**  **1 configuration should be considered for each of**  

### 2 **the considered equipment classes which are** 

### 3 **listed here.** 

### 4 **And then DOE requests comment on** 

### 5 **requiring an air straightener to reduce air** 

### 6 **swirl at the outlet for axial fans tested in** 

### 7 **configuration B or D.** 

### 8 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mark?** 

### 9 **MR. STEVENS: Right. If could go** 

### 10 **on, again, we have some comments later on** 

### 11 **regarding the scope of the rulemaking. Again,** 

### 12 **we'd like to say that AMCA 260 should be used** 

### 13 **for induced flow fans, and AMCA 210 for the** 

### 14 **remainder.** 

### 15 **What we'd also like to suggest is** 

### 16 **that the manufacturer be allowed to choose the** 

### 17 **installation type in which their fans are** 

### 18 **rated, because they are normally catalogued** 

### 19 **and presented to the public in which -- these** 

### 20 **ratings are presented to the public in the way** 

### 21 **their customers use them.** 

### 22 **And we would think that it would be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 150**  **1 an undue burden on our manufacturers if they**  

### 2 **were forced to rate installation types that** 

### 3 **their customers couldn't use.** 

### 4 **Regarding 3.8, air straighteners,** 

### 5 **this is another European construct that, no,** 

### 6 **we don't agree with using the air straightener** 

### 7 **for axial fans. Actually, tube axial fans are** 

### 8 **a subset of axial fans.** 

### 9 **And we have done a tremendous** 

### 10 **amount of research on this particular topic,** 

### 11 **and what the straightener does is actually add** 

### 12 **uncertainty to the test rather than increase** 

### 13 **the certainty or the uncertainty of the test,** 

### 14 **reduce the uncertainty of the test.** 

### 15 **So, no, we don't agree with the** 

### 16 **straightener. As a matter of fact, ISO 5801** 

### 17 **has a new draft, and there is a new work item** 

### 18 **proposal inside, TC117. AMCA is a technical** 

### 19 **advisory group to that.** 

### 20 **The chairman delegation, the** 

### 21 **secretary, convener, and they have proposed a** 

### 22 **draft that essentially eliminates the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 151**  **1 straightener for tube axial fans. But we are**  

### 2 **going to agree with that.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 4 **Interesting. Other comments on these two from** 

### 5 **other parties? Yes, please.** 

### 6 **MR. WAGNER: Greg Wagner. I echo** 

### 7 **AMCA's request that we consider AMCA 210 as** 

### 8 **the standard for testing most fans. I'll** 

### 9 **leave aside the cross-flow for other folks.** 

### 10 **But with regard to the test configuration,** 

### 11 **absolutely they should be tested in the** 

### 12 **configuration they are designed to be used to** 

### 13 **make sure that the performance and outcome is** 

### 14 **similar to what it is being tested and** 

### 15 **evaluated under.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Other** 

### 17 **comments? We're moving on.** 

### 18 **(No response.)** 

### 19 **Okay.** 

### 20 **MS. IYAMA: Okay. So the output** 

### 21 **performance measurement of the DOE test** 

### 22 **procedure will be used to develop a metric**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 152**  **1 that will allow comparing fan energy**  

### 2 **performance across products. This metric** 

### 3 **could be based on efficiency.** 

### 4 **Current efficiency definitions for** 

### 5 **fan include peak total efficiency, which is** 

### 6 **the ratio of fan air power output to fan shaft** 

### 7 **power input for the operating conditions for** 

### 8 **which this value is at its highest.** 

### 9 **Current fan efficiency definition** 

### 10 **also include overall efficiency, which is the** 

### 11 **fan peak total efficiency multiplied by drive** 

### 12 **components efficiency. These components** 

### 13 **include the motor, any components between the** 

### 14 **motor and the power supply, and any mechanical** 

### 15 **device between the motor and the fan.** 

### 16 **A potential metric that could be** 

### 17 **considered for bare shaft fans is the fan** 

### 18 **efficiency grade, the FEG, as developed by** 

### 19 **AMCA 205. As shown on this graph, the FEG is** 

### 20 **efficiency as a function -- peak total** 

### 21 **efficiency as a function of the fan's impeller** 

### 22 **diameter. And it does not differentiate**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 153**  **1 across different fan types, and DOE is**  

### 2 **interested in evaluating an FEG metric by** 

### 3 **developing fan efficiency grades unique to** 

### 4 **each equipment class.** 

### 5 **DOE is also interested in** 

### 6 **potentially expanding the FEG approach to not** 

### 7 **only be looking at total peak efficiency as a** 

### 8 **function of fan impeller diameter, but also as** 

### 9 **a function of operational parameters, for** 

### 10 **example, specific speed. So we would be** 

### 11 **looking at total peak efficiency as a function** 

### 12 **of impeller diameter and specific speed.** 

### 13 **In order to provide an example of** 

### 14 **what this expanded FEG metric could look like,** 

### 15 **we collected performance data for about a** 

### 16 **thousand fans, and we plotted peak total** 

### 17 **efficiency on the vertical axis as a function** 

### 18 **of impeller diameter and specific speed.** 

### 19 **This is just an example for the** 

### 20 **thousand fans that we collected information** 

### 21 **for. The surface represents the average total** 

### 22 **peak efficiency. What this means is that for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 154**  **1 this sample we had 50 percent of our models**  

### 2 **with a peak total efficiency above that** 

### 3 **surface, and the other half had total peak** 

### 4 **efficiencies falling below that surface.** 

### 5 **So it is the average peak** 

### 6 **efficiency as a function of impeller diameter** 

### 7 **and specific speed. And that is a 3D view.** 

### 8 **And on the next slide it's the same** 

### 9 **information, but collapsed onto a 2D view.** 

### 10 **We have the total peak efficiency** 

### 11 **on the vertical axis, impeller diameter on the** 

### 12 **horizontal axis, and here the specific speeds** 

### 13 **are represented as different colors. And here** 

### 14 **we see that we have something that looks** 

### 15 **similar to the FEG as developed by AMCA.** 

### 16 **So that's for the discussion of** 

### 17 **potential metrics for bare shaft fans. And in** 

### 18 **the next slides I will discuss potential** 

### 19 **metrics for combined fan equipments.** 

### 20 **If DOE is considering covering** 

### 21 **combined fan equipment, which is what is** 

### 22 **discussed under regulatory regimes two and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 155**  **1 three, the metric may need to consider motor**  

### 2 **efficiency and VSD efficiency. The metric may** 

### 3 **also need to be able to capture the energy** 

### 4 **impacts from using a fan with a VSD in** 

### 5 **comparison to using a fan without a VSD.** 

### 6 **One example of a metric which** 

### 7 **incorporates motor and VSD efficiency is the** 

### 8 **European fan motor efficiency grade, the FMEG,** 

### 9 **which is expressed in terms of overall** 

### 10 **efficiency calculated with a VSD compensation** 

### 11 **factor.** 

### 12 **So DOE is considering a different** 

### 13 **metrics approach, and for regulatory regimes** 

### 14 **two and three, as we saw earlier, we would** 

### 15 **have two sets of equipment classes. This** 

### 16 **could be rated -- these two equipment classes** 

### 17 **could be rated using separate metrics or** 

### 18 **similar metrics.** 

### 19 **And here this table provides a** 

### 20 **summary of the metrics approaches and provides** 

### 21 **examples for each regulatory regime. So, for** 

### 22 **example, if we are under a separate metrics**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 156**  **1 approach and under regulatory regime two, we**  

### 2 **would have two sets of equipment classes, fans** 

### 3 **sold without VSD and fans sold with a VSD.** 

### 4 **And for fans sold without VSD one** 

### 5 **possible option could be to use fan peak total** 

### 6 **efficiency to compare fans -- fan energy** 

### 7 **performance across fans sold without VSDs.** 

### 8 **For fans sold with VSDs, one** 

### 9 **potential metric option could be to use** 

### 10 **overall efficiency as the metric to compare** 

### 11 **fan energy performance across fans sold with** 

### 12 **VSDs.** 

### 13 **Another example of a separate** 

### 14 **metric approach, this time for regulatory** 

### 15 **regime number three -- so, again, we would** 

### 16 **have two sets of equipment classes, fans sold** 

### 17 **without motors, fans sold with motors.** 

### 18 **For fans sold without motors, one** 

### 19 **possible metric option could be to use fan** 

### 20 **peak total efficiency to compare fan energy** 

### 21 **performance across fans sold without motors.** 

### 22 **And for fans sold with motors, one possible**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 157**  **1 option would be to use an electric input**  

### 2 **power-based metric to compare fan energy** 

### 3 **performance across fans sold with motors.** 

### 4 **And here we would be evaluating** 

### 5 **fans sold with motors and fans sold with** 

### 6 **motors and VSDs under the same category. So** 

### 7 **we need to be using a metric that allows** 

### 8 **capturing the energy impacts of using a fan** 

### 9 **with a VSD in comparison to using a fan** 

### 10 **without a VSD.** 

### 11 **So that's it for the test procedure** 

### 12 **and efficiency metrics section, and we are** 

### 13 **going to the comment requests. DOE requests** 

### 14 **comment on the appropriateness of using** 

### 15 **publicly available performance data in lieu of** 

### 16 **original test data, so that's for developing** 

### 17 **the 3D graph that was shown earlier.** 

### 18 **DOE requests original fan** 

### 19 **performance data generated from AMCA 210** 

### 20 **tests. DOE requests comment on the considered** 

### 21 **efficiency metric approaches for bare shaft** 

### 22 **fans. DOE requests comments on the European**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 158**  **1 FMEG efficiency metric for fans sold with**  

### 2 **motors.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark.** 

### 4 **MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New** 

### 5 **York Blower Company on behalf of AMCA. With** 

### 6 **respect to 3.9, we would encourage DOE to use** 

### 7 **AMCA-certified data. That would be data that** 

### 8 **carries the AMCA seal. Those products are** 

### 9 **engaged in the CRP-certified ratings program** 

### 10 **where the AMCA attempts to do its best to** 

### 11 **validate the published data against certified** 

### 12 **and tested product.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Is that** 

### 14 **certified against the catalogue or something?** 

### 15 **MR. BUBLITZ: Yes. Well, really** 

### 16 **any published data, electronic and** 

### 17 **printed/published.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 19 **MR. BUBLITZ: Item 3.10,** 

### 20 **technically, that test data is owned by the** 

### 21 **manufacturer. So I'm sure if you'd contact** 

### 22 **the manufacturer some, whatever you call it,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 159**  **1 privacy release, NDA or something, could be**  

### 2 **released from AMCA.** 

### 3 **And then, just on Item 3.11, I was** 

### 4 **wondering if it would be possible to obtain** 

### 5 **the exact algorithm, the exact equations that** 

### 6 **were used to produce the 3D -- the precise** 

### 7 **definition of specific speed. So I'd like to** 

### 8 **send my data through the same engine to see** 

### 9 **what we get.** 

### 10 **That's all my comments. Thank you.** 

### 11 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 12 **Anybody want to respond to what --** 

### 13 **I'm sorry. Anybody that wishes to respond to** 

### 14 **3.11(B), the EU's FMEG efficiency metric?** 

### 15 **Yes, please, Tim.** 

### 16 **MR. KUSKI: Tim Kuski representing** 

### 17 **AMCA. I would like to reply to Items A, B, and** 

### 18 **C, all together. But I have a few slides that** 

### 19 **we are going to bring up --** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 21 **MR. KUSKI: -- so I'm going to wait** 

### 22 **until after questions 3.18 through 19 --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 160**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. KUSKI: -- are complete.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Then,** 

### 4 **let's go to three -- well, before we move on,** 

### 5 **then, additional comments -- yes, Gary -- on** 

### 6 **this first comment box on page 46?** 

### 7 **MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom. I** 

### 8 **would like to note that we support DOE** 

### 9 **covering fan motor combinations with the VSD** 

### 10 **as the design option, in addition to the bare** 

### 11 **shaft fans in the rulemaking. And we** 

### 12 **recommend that DOE develop an input power** 

### 13 **based metric wire to air efficiency, for** 

### 14 **example, to reflect the overall system** 

### 15 **efficiency of fans sold with motors and** 

### 16 **controls.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Other** 

### 18 **comments on these before we move on?** 

### 19 **(No response.)** 

### 20 **Then we are going on to the next** 

### 21 **comment box.** 

### 22 **MS. IYAMA: Okay. So Item 3.11(C),**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 161**  **1 DOE requests comments on the use of overall**  

### 2 **efficiency for fans sold with both motors and** 

### 3 **VSDs.** 

### 4 **3.18, DOE requests comment on the** 

### 5 **use of input power-based efficiency for fans** 

### 6 **sold with motors.** 

### 7 **3.19, DOE requests comment on** 

### 8 **whether fans that perform under variable load** 

### 9 **conditions should be required to meet multiple** 

### 10 **standards.** 

### 11 **3.20, DOE seeks comment on setting** 

### 12 **standards based on different efficiency** 

### 13 **metrics for fans sold alone and fans sold with** 

### 14 **motors and VSDs.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mark?** 

### 16 **MR. STEVENS: Yes. We do -- this** 

### 17 **is Mark from AMCA. We do have some further** 

### 18 **comments, but I think the slides from Tim will** 

### 19 **put this in -- our further comments on these** 

### 20 **questions into context. So maybe we can go** 

### 21 **through the slides first and then make our** 

### 22 **comments.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 162**  **1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. That**  

### 2 **sounds good.** 

### 3 **Jack, can you queue or --** 

### 4 **MS. IYAMA: I can do it.** 

### 5 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Sanaee has** 

### 6 **got it. Okay.** 

### 7 **(Pause.)** 

### 8 **MR. KUSKI: Tim Kuski with AMCA.** 

### 9 **These issues of the metric are very important,** 

### 10 **so I want you to give me about five minutes to** 

### 11 **walk through these few slides and talk about** 

### 12 **the bare shaft metrics and the overall** 

### 13 **metrics.** 

### 14 **And I'm going to start with the FEG** 

### 15 **and commenting on it. FEG is a very good** 

### 16 **indicator of aerodynamic fan quality for fans** 

### 17 **with ducted discharges. Specifying FEG-only** 

### 18 **is not a guarantee of energy savings, however.** 

### 19 **AMCA recognized this when we** 

### 20 **created Standard 205, which defines a fan** 

### 21 **efficiency grade. And in there we required** 

### 22 **that the fan must be selected within 15 points**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 163**  **1 of peak total efficiency in an effort to save**  

### 2 **energy.** 

### 3 **So what you see on the screen up** 

### 4 **here, in our industry fans are typically** 

### 5 **selected with electronic selection software** 

### 6 **where design engineer enters CFM and pressure.** 

### 7 **Here there are seven different sizes,** 

### 8 **different wheel diameters. And if you look at** 

### 9 **the first column they are from 36 inches up to** 

### 10 **66 inches, and it is only one model of fan.** 

### 11 **It is a belt-driven, air-foil, double-width** 

### 12 **fan.** 

### 13 **But all of these will do 80,000 CFM** 

### 14 **at three inches of pressure. And look at the** 

### 15 **FEG column. Every one of them is an FEG 85,** 

### 16 **which indicates, if selected properly, that** 

### 17 **these are very efficient fans.** 

### 18 **But look at the shaft brake** 

### 19 **horsepower over in column four. For the 36-** 

### 20 **inch fan, the smallest fan, it requires 114** 

### 21 **horsepower to do that. And for the 66-inch** 

### 22 **diameter, the biggest fan, it requires 50**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 164**  **1 brake horsepower. So there is a two-to-one**  

### 2 **ratio there, more than two to one in power.** 

### 3 **And, unfortunately, first cost is** 

### 4 **typically the major driver for our customers** 

### 5 **that select these fans. So most likely they** 

### 6 **would pick a 40-inch fan here, lowest cost,** 

### 7 **and it's only 62 percent total efficiency.** 

### 8 **Next slide, please. Number seven.** 

### 9 **So what I want to demonstrate here** 

### 10 **is the wide range of efficiencies found in a** 

### 11 **fan. And I'm not a motor expert, but I do** 

### 12 **know motor efficiencies stay pretty constant** 

### 13 **from full load to about half load. They drop** 

### 14 **a little bit. In fans, however, they drop a** 

### 15 **lot.** 

### 16 **So what we have here is a fan** 

### 17 **curve. The solid line is fan total pressure.** 

### 18 **There is the CFM. And the dashed line is** 

### 19 **total efficiency versus CFM. And this is a** 

### 20 **constant RPM fan curve, so this fan would have** 

### 21 **a stable operating range from about 60,000 CFM** 

### 22 **to 120,000 CFM.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 165**  **1 Now, the efficiency varies widely**  

### 2 **over this range, this CFM range. It peaks out** 

### 3 **at about 83 percent at 80,000 CFM, and it** 

### 4 **drops to a low of less than 50 percent as you** 

### 5 **move out to its maximum flow or 120,000 CFM.** 

### 6 **Slide number eight, please.** 

### 7 **Now, a more reasonable selection** 

### 8 **range for this fan would be to limit the** 

### 9 **selection from about 60,000 CFM to 100,000** 

### 10 **CFM. Now, ASHRAE 90.1, in Addendum U,** 

### 11 **employed this by specifying not only a minimum** 

### 12 **fan efficiency grade but that the selection** 

### 13 **must be within 15 percent of peak total** 

### 14 **efficiency.** 

### 15 **That was my answer to 3.11(A). I** 

### 16 **want to move to 3.11(B) now, which -- go** 

### 17 **ahead.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's see if** 

### 19 **we have questions here.** 

### 20 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So on the first** 

### 21 **slide -- John Cymbalsky, DOE. I assume there** 

### 22 **was a reason why you put the weight column**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 166**  **1 here, but -- and I fully appreciate that your**  

### 2 **customers may want to know that number. Is** 

### 3 **that a big issue in how your customers** 

### 4 **purchase this product? And maybe if you can** 

### 5 **expand on that a little bit.** 

### 6 **MR. KUSKI: Tim from AMCA again.** 

### 7 **You know, they may consider other things other** 

### 8 **than cost. I said that was the primary** 

### 9 **driver. But they may consider efficiency** 

### 10 **sometimes. But they are also concerned about** 

### 11 **physical size. I think that is very big.** 

### 12 **And each one of these fans** 

### 13 **represents about a 10 percent increase in** 

### 14 **wheel diameter from size to size, so you can** 

### 15 **imagine the physical cube is getting 10** 

### 16 **percent bigger length, width, and height.** 

### 17 **And so, yes, weight does become a** 

### 18 **feature, an issue. You know, rooftop-mounted** 

### 19 **equipment or something that is, you know, not** 

### 20 **sitting at grade level.** 

### 21 **Another issue that I'm not bringing** 

### 22 **up at all in any of these slides is sound**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 167**  **1 considerations. The smaller fans running at**  

### 2 **higher speed will generate more sound energy** 

### 3 **also.** 

### 4 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So if you could,** 

### 5 **all of those features that you mentioned,** 

### 6 **would you -- are you saying that the** 

### 7 **efficiency is probably the last thing they are** 

### 8 **thinking of, or is it in the middle, or --** 

### 9 **MR. KUSKI: You know, I can** 

### 10 **speculate on that. However, we have kept** 

### 11 **track of data within our company of all the** 

### 12 **fan selections that people have made, and we** 

### 13 **can demonstrate that they are selected far to** 

### 14 **the right of peak efficiency. And they are** 

### 15 **typically one to two sizes smaller fans than** 

### 16 **they should be.** 

### 17 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You said** 

### 19 **first cost was the big driver.** 

### 20 **MR. KUSKI: Yes, I did. First cost** 

### 21 **is the big driver.** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 168**  **1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So did you** 

### 3 **finish with those slides?** 

### 4 **MR. KUSKI: I am ready to move on** 

### 5 **to the next subject. We can just hold that** 

### 6 **slide for a second.** 

### 7 **Now, I want to answer 3.11(B),** 

### 8 **which talks -- which comments on the European** 

### 9 **FMEG, which is an overall fan efficiency. The** 

### 10 **main reason AMCA in the United States here** 

### 11 **selected FEG based on shaft horsepower is** 

### 12 **because most of the products that we sell at** 

### 13 **this time are still belt-driven, and the** 

### 14 **number of different permutations to test and** 

### 15 **rate all of our motor, belt drive, and motor** 

### 16 **drive/fan combinations is huge. And I'll get** 

### 17 **to quantifying that.** 

### 18 **The Europeans use mostly direct** 

### 19 **driven equipment, and they have much fewer end** 

### 20 **items or SKUs, and they selected the fan motor** 

### 21 **extended product metric.** 

### 22 **Slide number nine, please.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 169**  **1 Or, excuse me. Each of the fan**  

### 2 **manufacturers make many different styles or** 

### 3 **types of products based on application. A lot** 

### 4 **of these are belt drive; some of them are** 

### 5 **direct drive. So I'm just going to let you** 

### 6 **look at all of those different looking fans.** 

### 7 **It's a lot broader than just** 

### 8 **saying, "Hey, I've got a centrifugal, I've got** 

### 9 **an axial, and I've got a mixed flow." There's** 

### 10 **lots of different shapes and sizes.** 

### 11 **Next slide, please.** 

### 12 **Within each fan type, there are** 

### 13 **many different sizes. So what I have here is** 

### 14 **a backward-inclined single-width fan. And if** 

### 15 **this had wheel diameters from 12 inch to 73** 

### 16 **inch, you would have 19 different physical** 

### 17 **sizes within one fan type.** 

### 18 **Next slide, please.** 

### 19 **Each fan's size has multiple** 

### 20 **horsepower motors applied to it, with** 

### 21 **different enclosures, different voltages,** 

### 22 **different motor efficiencies. The customer**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 170**  **1 might specify a certain efficiency that might**  

### 2 **not be NEMA premium, and there is numerous,** 

### 3 **numerous belt and pulley combinations.** 

### 4 **Next slide, please.** 

### 5 **So here is just the typical** 

### 6 **manufacturer that has, let's say, 40 direct** 

### 7 **drive fan types and 60 belt drive fan types.** 

### 8 **And what I am using here, I want you to know,** 

### 9 **there are some very conservative estimates I** 

### 10 **have used to drive these permutations, okay?** 

### 11 **So the numbers I show on the bottom of the** 

### 12 **page are low.** 

### 13 **First of all, the direct drive fan,** 

### 14 **if you assume you have 40 different fan types** 

### 15 **with 10 sizes per fan type, and five motors** 

### 16 **for each fan size, you get 2,000 end items or** 

### 17 **SKUs for the direct drive fan.** 

### 18 **On the belt drive, if the** 

### 19 **manufacturer has 60 different fan types, 16** 

### 20 **sizes per type, 30 motors per size, seven belt** 

### 21 **drive combinations for each motor, you get** 

### 22 **201,600 different end items or permutations.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 171**  **1 So for us it is virtually impossible to test**  

### 2 **and rate the efficiencies of this motor drive** 

### 3 **and fan combination.** 

### 4 **So this is the primary reason AMCA** 

### 5 **fans produced in the United States we selected** 

### 6 **the FEG bare shaft metric over the extended** 

### 7 **product or FMEG metric. And I'll pause here** 

### 8 **for questions.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Bob.** 

### 10 **MR. BOTELER: Yes. We put this** 

### 11 **together to kind of demonstrate, because we** 

### 12 **were thinking in terms of what we did with** 

### 13 **motors when we came up with our definition for** 

### 14 **basic model. And the analogy that I gave them** 

### 15 **is on motors we looked at just a horsepower** 

### 16 **speed and enclosure.** 

### 17 **And we have to submit data for the** 

### 18 **motor population from one to 200 horsepower.** 

### 19 **It's 113 ratings, and we are trying to come to** 

### 20 **grips with what did this translate to when we** 

### 21 **got to all of the variables that were involved** 

### 22 **with fans. And it's a pretty significant**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 172**  **1 difference between fans and motors.**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank** 

### 3 **you.** 

### 4 **Yes, Louis.** 

### 5 **MR. STARR: I had a question back** 

### 6 **on the slide with the chart. I want to say** 

### 7 **it's Slide 4 probably. It's the one with all** 

### 8 **of the fan selections. There you go. That** 

### 9 **one.** 

### 10 **I'm wondering on this case here, if** 

### 11 **they have -- is there is a brake horsepower** 

### 12 **for CFM limitation on that, would that help in** 

### 13 **the fan? In other words, it would keep people** 

### 14 **from selecting too small a wheel for a given** 

### 15 **flow?** 

### 16 **I mean, I'm looking on there and** 

### 17 **you've got efficiency of 56, 62, and 68. And** 

### 18 **it looks like the horsepower, if you divide it** 

### 19 **by the CFM you could come up with a number** 

### 20 **kind of similar to what 90.1 has to have a** 

### 21 **brake horsepower CFM limitation.** 

### 22 **If you are selling both items -- a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 173**  **1 fan and the motor -- could that not be applied**  

### 2 **in that metric? Or would that not really be** 

### 3 **practical?** 

### 4 **MR. KUSKI: Tim from Greenheck.** 

### 5 **The big problem with a simple CFM per** 

### 6 **horsepower metric is that always -- that** 

### 7 **varies with the pressure. It also varies with** 

### 8 **the CFM. So, you know, I've seen that applied** 

### 9 **to agricultural fans where the pressure is** 

### 10 **always constant. It might be an eighth of an** 

### 11 **inch.** 

### 12 **And then they also normalize it per** 

### 13 **fan speed and fan diameter. So they control a** 

### 14 **lot of the variables, and then they are able** 

### 15 **to establish a metric like CFM per watt or** 

### 16 **something like this.** 

### 17 **MR. STARR: Is that what they are** 

### 18 **trying to get at with the specific speed, kind** 

### 19 **of, they are talking about that three** 

### 20 **dimensional -- because that's what they are** 

### 21 **essentially getting into, some of the pressure** 

### 22 **effects, and what you are trying to achieve**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 174**  **1 with it.**  

### 2 **MR. KUSKI: I think with -- Tim** 

### 3 **again from AMCA. With specific speed, there** 

### 4 **are different types of fan designs that fit** 

### 5 **themselves well for low pressure/high flow and** 

### 6 **high pressure/low flow.** 

### 7 **MR. STARR: Right.** 

### 8 **MR. KUSKI: And the theoretical** 

### 9 **peak efficiencies vary across that whole** 

### 10 **spectrum. Hence, you saw that shape to their** 

### 11 **chart. So --** 

### 12 **MR. STARR: If, though, inside of a** 

### 13 **given classification of fan, like forward** 

### 14 **curve, you had certain amounts of, you know,** 

### 15 **requirements for efficiency in that area. And** 

### 16 **then, when you switch it to another fan type,** 

### 17 **there was another efficiency requirement. It** 

### 18 **would kind of be the same graph they had,** 

### 19 **except it would have different heights of** 

### 20 **roofs in it.** 

### 21 **MR. KUSKI: You are correct. Yes.** 

### 22 **MR. STARR: So that would maybe**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 175**  **1 work. Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. KUSKI: Yes.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Dan, did you** 

### 4 **want to comment here?** 

### 5 **MR. HARTLEIN: I was just going to** 

### 6 **reiterate that one of the things we are trying** 

### 7 **to make sure that we clarify here is the** 

### 8 **importance of the proper selection. And if we** 

### 9 **regulate the fan manufacturer without somehow** 

### 10 **addressing that issue, the unintended** 

### 11 **consequences of this becoming worse could show** 

### 12 **itself.** 

### 13 **So somehow in this effort the** 

### 14 **Department of Energy and all of us have to** 

### 15 **figure out how to solve that problem. Okay?** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve** 

### 17 **Rosenstock.** 

### 18 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 19 **EEI. I understand your concern, but,** 

### 20 **remember, this is a manufacturing standard,** 

### 21 **not a design or a selection standard. That is** 

### 22 **up to the end user. DOE has no control over**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 176**  **1 that.**  

### 2 **MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein again** 

### 3 **from AMCA. I hate to say this, Steve, but it** 

### 4 **doesn't work then. It has to be addressed.** 

### 5 **Thank you.** 

### 6 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Andrew, yes.** 

### 7 **MR. deLASKI: Andrew deLaski. So** 

### 8 **the costs go up from the smaller fan to the** 

### 9 **larger fan with that one anomaly, though.** 

### 10 **That first one is more expensive. What is** 

### 11 **going on there?** 

### 12 **MR. KUSKI: Tim from Greenheck. I** 

### 13 **would guess that a 36-inch fan is a 125-horse** 

### 14 **motor, which raises first cost. And it may be** 

### 15 **a Class 3 construction, meaning it has got to** 

### 16 **run at a much higher speed and pressure.** 

### 17 **MR. deLASKI: So at some point --** 

### 18 **so the costs go up, but if you get too small,** 

### 19 **and then you've got to compensate in other** 

### 20 **ways that drive your costs up and --** 

### 21 **MR. KUSKI: That's right. Good** 

### 22 **question. Good observation.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 177**  **1 MR. deLASKI: But it strikes me,**  

### 2 **just about Steve's question, is that, you** 

### 3 **know, what I'm hearing you guys say is you** 

### 4 **need to construct this in such a way that you** 

### 5 **don't foster -- you want to foster better** 

### 6 **selection. And you can -- so how do we think** 

### 7 **about this in ways that foster better** 

### 8 **selection and certainly don't go in the wrong** 

### 9 **direction.** 

### 10 **MR. KUSKI: Right.** 

### 11 **MR. deLASKI: Because I think you** 

### 12 **can design things that --** 

### 13 **MR. KUSKI: Right. Because as we** 

### 14 **design more and more efficient products, it** 

### 15 **probably costs more to produce them.** 

### 16 **MR. deLASKI: Right.** 

### 17 **MR. KUSKI: And if the market** 

### 18 **doesn't bear that extra cost, they are going** 

### 19 **to drive down this size.** 

### 20 **MR. deLASKI: Right. And, again,** 

### 21 **in response to Steve's question, you can't** 

### 22 **dictate what consumers choose, but you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 178**  **1 certainly can affect relative prices and that**  

### 2 **will affect consumer choices.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Go** 

### 4 **ahead, Dan.** 

### 5 **MR. HARTLEIN: Yes. Again, Dan** 

### 6 **from Twin City Fan and AMCA. I would just** 

### 7 **pose the question -- and I agree with Steve** 

### 8 **that, you know, you can't regulate the end** 

### 9 **user's decision. But perhaps there is an** 

### 10 **opportunity to regulate the data in what we** 

### 11 **sell. Just another angle to think about it.** 

### 12 **I'm not sure how that works, but** 

### 13 **somehow if we can limit the selection output** 

### 14 **from our software as part of this, or the** 

### 15 **marketing materials and the data that is** 

### 16 **published, I think you can start to have an** 

### 17 **influence there.** 

### 18 **Thank you.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Karim.** 

### 20 **MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane.** 

### 21 **Actually, one can go even further and say,** 

### 22 **well, I'm not sure why you need to regulate,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 179**  **1 because with an efficiency metric like this**  

### 2 **you are not going to get -- it's not going to** 

### 3 **tell you how the fans operate and how they are** 

### 4 **-- their energy consumption.** 

### 5 **So one could argue that metrics** 

### 6 **alone will not do it.** 

### 7 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Michael, did** 

### 8 **you want to follow on?** 

### 9 **MR. IVANOVICH: This is Michael** 

### 10 **Ivanovich, AMCA International. And to** 

### 11 **reiterate, this is why the AMCA 205 standard** 

### 12 **has not only the efficiency definition -- you** 

### 13 **know, it defines how to calculate a fan** 

### 14 **efficiency grade, but also includes that 15** 

### 15 **percentage point selection window, which has** 

### 16 **been adopted into all of the codes and** 

### 17 **standards and have adopted AMCA 205.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve** 

### 19 **Rosenstock.** 

### 20 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 21 **EEI. I appreciate all of the feedback. And,** 

### 22 **again, as we go forward, we also have to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 180**  **1 remember that the standard is for new and**  

### 2 **replacement fans.** 

### 3 **So in areas where the fans are** 

### 4 **already on a space constrained roof, or** 

### 5 **enclosure inside a building, depending on how** 

### 6 **the standard eventually is structured, if it** 

### 7 **somehow is structured that, you know, you can** 

### 8 **only use a 54-inch fan, or something like** 

### 9 **that, there might be some issues with the** 

### 10 **replacement market. Again, hopefully that** 

### 11 **won't happen. Hopefully, it will be designed** 

### 12 **in a way -- but, again, just thinking about,** 

### 13 **you know, the space constraint can be an issue** 

### 14 **in retrofits.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Do you have** 

### 16 **more to --** 

### 17 **MR. KUSKI: I am finished with the** 

### 18 **slides.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay.** 

### 20 **MR. KUSKI: And then I've got one** 

### 21 **more comment on 3-11(C).** 

### 22 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Please do.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 181**  **1 Yes.**  

### 2 **MR. KUSKI: And that's the overall** 

### 3 **efficiency of fans sold with motors and VSDs.** 

### 4 **First of all, like you heard a couple of times** 

### 5 **this morning, fan manufacturers don't sell to** 

### 6 **VFDs.** 

### 7 **Second, and -- I'm saying VFDs,** 

### 8 **variable frequency drives, the electronics.** 

### 9 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I thought** 

### 10 **you said F, right, yes.** 

### 11 **MR. KUSKI: Frank. Very --** 

### 12 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 13 **MR. KUSKI: Second, these VFDs are** 

### 14 **unregulated, and there is not a lot of** 

### 15 **accurate efficiency information out there** 

### 16 **right now. It is hard for us to be held** 

### 17 **accountable for the efficiency of a product** 

### 18 **that we don't manufacturer; we simply purchase** 

### 19 **it.** 

### 20 **And my whole permutation slide, if** 

### 21 **you had VFDs on top of that and that gets, you** 

### 22 **know, another order of magnitude added to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 182**  **1 it --**  

### 2 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I think I** 

### 3 **know the answer. You are careful to** 

### 4 **differentiate between VFDs and VSDs. So what** 

### 5 **about VSDs?** 

### 6 **MR. KUSKI: Most of our belt driven** 

### 7 **products you could say have a VSD, especially** 

### 8 **15-horsepower and over. They are adjustable** 

### 9 **in situ. And I guess over 15 horsepower, if** 

### 10 **you had a belt drive, even though it is a** 

### 11 **fixed pitch pulley, you can simply change a** 

### 12 **pulley in the field to match to a certain load** 

### 13 **point.** 

### 14 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. See,** 

### 15 **now that was -- to me that was the definition** 

### 16 **of -- this other gentleman was referring to** 

### 17 **where it was a part of the VSD, was a part of** 

### 18 **a system where you've got controls and, you** 

### 19 **know, it wasn't an adjustment in the field** 

### 20 **that would customize, but -- right? It would** 

### 21 **be -- you know, that's what I was thinking,** 

### 22 **but that was just me.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 183**  **1 Okay. Michael.**  

### 2 **MR. IVANOVICH: Just on the 3-20 a** 

### 3 **little bit, going back to the DOE proposed** 

### 4 **definition of fan manufacturer, it is an** 

### 5 **entity responsible for assembling a fan into a** 

### 6 **testable configuration, such that the fan and** 

### 7 **power is fit to a shaft, bearings, and in some** 

### 8 **cases installed with a housing component.** 

### 9 **That definition of a fan** 

### 10 **manufacturer doesn't include the extended** 

### 11 **product aspects, and we are curious how, you** 

### 12 **know, basically with 3-20, you know, who would** 

### 13 **be held accountable to an extended product** 

### 14 **definition, you know, with the efficiency** 

### 15 **metrics and things like that if the** 

### 16 **manufacturer doesn't make those products or if** 

### 17 **they are assembled down the line by a** 

### 18 **distributor or a contractor.** 

### 19 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Yes.** 

### 20 **That's a question that has been faced in other** 

### 21 **rulemakings. Steve.** 

### 22 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 184**  **1 EEI. If you could go back -- again, these**  

### 2 **slides are terrific. So comment on Slide 45,** 

### 3 **and this has to do with I would say 3-20, in** 

### 4 **terms of 3-20.** 

### 5 **I will speak on it from a utility** 

### 6 **and maybe possibly kind of thinking about the** 

### 7 **customer perspective. If there was a way** 

### 8 **eventually down the road to harmonize the** 

### 9 **metrics so that -- to make sure that, you** 

### 10 **know, it's an apples to apples comparison for** 

### 11 **the customer, person actually buying the** 

### 12 **product, I think that will help out immensely.** 

### 13 **I hope we don't go into a situation** 

### 14 **where, you know, one efficiency metric, if it** 

### 15 **says 81 percent and the other one -- or other** 

### 16 **test method says 85 percent, but the one that** 

### 17 **says 81 percent will actually have lower** 

### 18 **energy use and lower energy cost because of** 

### 19 **the test method.** 

### 20 **So if there is a way to harmonize,** 

### 21 **I don't know if it's wire to air or just only** 

### 22 **using overall efficiency. Among all of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 185**  **1 different products, I think that would be of**  

### 2 **most benefit to the end use customer.** 

### 3 **And then, if you go back to I'll** 

### 4 **say -- let's just go to Slide 42. I think it** 

### 5 **makes it easier, because you have a question** 

### 6 **about 3-19. This is about the variable load** 

### 7 **conditions.** 

### 8 **Just as I have been involved with** 

### 9 **appliance standards for longer than I would** 

### 10 **probably care to admit, typical test procedure** 

### 11 **or one testing point -- for example, for** 

### 12 **transformers it is 50 percent load for a** 

### 13 **liquid filled transformer. For dry type it's** 

### 14 **35 percent load. EER is 95 degrees ambient,** 

### 15 **outside air, period. That's it.** 

### 16 **With this type of system,** 

### 17 **especially with variable speeds, I mean, right** 

### 18 **now you're showing like 18 or 19 specific** 

### 19 **speeds on that chart that a fan could be** 

### 20 **operating at. So I can see -- you know, if** 

### 21 **you have a -- I'll just say you have the fans** 

### 22 **without the variable speed controls -- I'll**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 186**  **1 just say controls -- versus the fan with**  

### 2 **controls.** 

### 3 **If there is a way, again, comparing** 

### 4 **apples to apples, if you had more than one** 

### 5 **test point condition, to have it the same for** 

### 6 **both the constant and the variable type of fan** 

### 7 **applications. Again, I think that would help** 

### 8 **the market the best.** 

### 9 **Again, it would be -- again, it** 

### 10 **would be kind of precedent-setting, just** 

### 11 **because other appliance standards had to be** 

### 12 **one point. That's it for the --** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 14 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- efficiency.** 

### 15 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mark.** 

### 16 **MR. STEVENS: This is Mark from** 

### 17 **AMCA. I just want to clarify what that slide** 

### 18 **is showing. It's showing peak efficiencies** 

### 19 **for different types of fans that have** 

### 20 **characteristic specific speeds. Right? So** 

### 21 **the speed is a characteristic -- specific** 

### 22 **speed at peak efficiency, right?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 187**  **1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. My thought**  

### 2 **was suppose you have a fan -- a variable speed** 

### 3 **fan with different, you know -- okay.** 

### 4 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Tim. I'll** 

### 5 **come back to you, Louis. Tim.** 

### 6 **MR. KUSKI: Tim from AMCA. The** 

### 7 **primary reason we are advocating the FEG or** 

### 8 **the fan shaft brake horsepower is because we** 

### 9 **can conduct a very simple test. That fan** 

### 10 **curve I had up a few slides ago, we can put** 

### 11 **that up to a chamber and within 20 minutes** 

### 12 **approximately we know all of those performance** 

### 13 **points.** 

### 14 **And by using the fan affinity laws** 

### 15 **or fan laws, we can generate that curve at all** 

### 16 **different speeds, the whole matrix of** 

### 17 **operating points.** 

### 18 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis.** 

### 19 **MR. STARR: Yes. If you'd switch** 

### 20 **back to Slide 45. One of the things on this** 

### 21 **one here, if you went with Item 3, since the** 

### 22 **fan manufacturers don't actually, it sounds**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 188**  **1 like most of the time, sell it with the VFDs,**  

### 2 **you would really only be subjected to the** 

### 3 **first one, the bare shaft fans, where you are** 

### 4 **putting the motor power and the fan and the** 

### 5 **motor together.** 

### 6 **And your presentation of where you** 

### 7 **had the sheet that the -- they were selecting** 

### 8 **a lot of bad motors, that would take care of** 

### 9 **that issue by going with Item 3.** 

### 10 **So, and it sounds like the VFDs,** 

### 11 **since you don't sell them that way, you don't** 

### 12 **really need to be concerned. But if you start** 

### 13 **selling them that way, then it would address** 

### 14 **some of the concerns you had. So just a** 

### 15 **thought.** 

### 16 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Dan.** 

### 17 **MR. HARTLEIN: If I can clarify, it** 

### 18 **wasn't selection of bad motors. We were** 

### 19 **demonstrating selection of bad fans. Maybe --** 

### 20 **MR. STARR: The combination of bad** 

### 21 **fans and motors.** 

### 22 **MR. HARTLEIN: Yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 189**  **1 MR. STARR: In other words,**  

### 2 **selecting the wrong fan wheel and maybe a more** 

### 3 **bigger fan wheel instead of using a smaller** 

### 4 **fan wheel.** 

### 5 **MR. HARTLEIN: Again, and I don't** 

### 6 **want to sound like a broken record, but just** 

### 7 **to reiterate, if we don't find a way to** 

### 8 **control and encourage the fan to be selected** 

### 9 **within a certain range of its peak efficiency,** 

### 10 **everything we do here will be for naught. It** 

### 11 **will not provide energy savings. We have to** 

### 12 **figure out how to do that.** 

### 13 **MR. STARR: Well, one thing is** 

### 14 **Addendum U kind of hits that side of the fan** 

### 15 **selection, because it -- and that will be** 

### 16 **going into think -- but the other side of it** 

### 17 **is the actual equipment side, which then could** 

### 18 **also limit some of that problem as well. So** 

### 19 **I'm thinking the combination of those two** 

### 20 **would work well.** 

### 21 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So final** 

### 22 **comment. Michael? No. Mark?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 190**  **1 MR. STEVENS: There was a specific**  

### 2 **-- I'm sorry.** 

### 3 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Name.** 

### 4 **MR. STEVENS: Oh. Mark again from** 

### 5 **AMCA. There was a specific question on EU's** 

### 6 **FMEG program. And I should mention that AMCA** 

### 7 **had looked at that, and there were a couple of** 

### 8 **items inside that regulation that were just** 

### 9 **unacceptable to the North American** 

### 10 **manufacturers.** 

### 11 **And they both had to do with** 

### 12 **bonuses and penalties. One was a matching of** 

### 13 **components penalty, a 10 percent penalty. And** 

### 14 **then there was the part-load compensation** 

### 15 **factor. It was basically a bonus for folks** 

### 16 **that sold fans with VSDs.** 

### 17 **And so those are two things that** 

### 18 **the North American manufacturers couldn't** 

### 19 **tolerate actually.** 

### 20 **Regarding the permutations, you** 

### 21 **know, Tim is right, you know, that's a very** 

### 22 **difficult not -- to overcome. There is a task**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 191**  **1 -- but we also understand the desire for a**  

### 2 **wire to gas type or wire to air efficiency** 

### 3 **metric. And so at AMCA there is a task force** 

### 4 **that is looking at this.** 

### 5 **And so they envisioned three things** 

### 6 **becoming available. One is the FEG metric,** 

### 7 **which Tim has talked about quite a bit and** 

### 8 **very eloquently. A second one is a tested** 

### 9 **wire to gas. Now, as we mentioned before,** 

### 10 **there is not many people in the States that** 

### 11 **are doing that, but we want to make that** 

### 12 **available in case there is manufacturers that** 

### 13 **have a limited number of variations of their** 

### 14 **fans.** 

### 15 **And, finally, there is another** 

### 16 **permutation to that and that would be a tested** 

### 17 **fan efficiency as addressed in AMCA 210, with** 

### 18 **some standardized losses for motors, belts,** 

### 19 **VFDs, motors, and so on.** 

### 20 **And this task force, I need to** 

### 21 **mention, is not just a North American task** 

### 22 **force. There is six North Americans on there,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 192**  **1 and there is four folks from Asia. So it is**  

### 2 **truly an international task force.** 

### 3 **We are excited about this, I am** 

### 4 **actually in particular, because two of the** 

### 5 **Asian members are Chinese and they happen to** 

### 6 **be on the Drafting Committee for GB19761,** 

### 7 **which was mentioned in the rule -- in the** 

### 8 **framework document as something that could** 

### 9 **potentially be looked at.** 

### 10 **But the reason we are excited about** 

### 11 **that is that we -- we feel that there is an** 

### 12 **opportunity for harmonization across the globe** 

### 13 **around this document, and that we anticipate** 

### 14 **that the Chinese will adopt this AMCA standard** 

### 15 **because we have part of their folks on this** 

### 16 **Drafting Committee.** 

### 17 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank** 

### 18 **you.** 

### 19 **MR. STEVENS: All right.** 

### 20 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis?** 

### 21 **MR. STARR: So it sounds like that** 

### 22 **document that you are working on -- or test**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 193**  **1 procedure, it seems like it is part -- it is**  

### 2 **similar to the FMEG, just has improvements to** 

### 3 **it.** 

### 4 **MR. STEVENS: Well, right. You** 

### 5 **know, the -- one of the first documents they** 

### 6 **are looking at is ISO 12759, which is the** 

### 7 **underlying ISO document for this EU 327,** 

### 8 **right?** 

### 9 **So, but as I mentioned, these** 

### 10 **compensation factors are just warts that have** 

### 11 **to be taken off, and I don't think that they** 

### 12 **are going to -- those won't survive.** 

### 13 **FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So** 

### 14 **we've covered a lot of ground. And we didn't** 

### 15 **get quite as far before lunch as we thought we** 

### 16 **would, but maybe we're not too far off.** 

### 17 **Let's pause for lunch. It's now** 

### 18 **12:20. It pretty much takes an hour to eat** 

### 19 **lunch and get back here. Do not leave the** 

### 20 **Forrestal Building. For those of you that are** 

### 21 **not familiar with the Forrestal Building, you** 

### 22 **go down to the ground floor, and you go about**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 194**  **1 100 yards in that direction and there is a big**  

### 2 **cafeteria. Up two escalators.** 

### 3 **You just wear this badge in the** 

### 4 **room -- in the building. This room will be** 

### 5 **locked. It will be -- so you can leave your** 

### 6 **stuff here. You might need an ID to get back** 

### 7 **in through the security apparatus. I needed** 

### 8 **one this morning.** 

### 9 **So good progress this morning, and** 

### 10 **we'll see you back here to resume at 1:20.** 

### 11 **(Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the proceedings in** 

### 12 **the foregoing matter recessed for** 

### 13 **lunch.)** 

### 14 **15 16**  **17 18**  **19 20**  **21 22**  **23**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 195**  **1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N**  

### 2 **1:22 p.m.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, let's resume.** 

### 4 **We are going to commence with the Market and** 

### 5 **Technology Assessment section. We're on about** 

### 6 **Slide 50 and we're going to hear again from** 

### 7 **Sanaee.** 

### 8 **MS. IYAMA: Okay, so I'll start** 

### 9 **presenting the rulemaking analysis starting** 

### 10 **with the content of the preliminary analysis.** 

### 11 **In the next couple of slides, we'll go through** 

### 12 **the content of each chapter and I'll start** 

### 13 **with the Market and Tech, Market and** 

### 14 **Technology Assessment.** 

### 15 **For the Market and Technology** 

### 16 **Assessment, DOE identifies and characterizes** 

### 17 **manufacturers of commercial, industrial fans.** 

### 18 **It establishes equipment classes, estimates** 

### 19 **shipments and trends in the market; identifies** 

### 20 **technologies that could improve efficiency, as** 

### 21 **well as identifies regulatory and non** 

### 22 **regulatory initiatives intended to improve the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 196**  **1 efficiency of the equipment covered under the**  

### 2 **rulemaking.** 

### 3 **One main task of the Market and** 

### 4 **Technology Assessment is to establish the** 

### 5 **equipment classes. DOE generally sets** 

### 6 **separate energy conservation standards for** 

### 7 **each equipment class. Here, on this slide, we** 

### 8 **have listed the equipment classes that are** 

### 9 **proposed in the framework document. So first** 

### 10 **we looked at the different aerodynamic** 

### 11 **characteristics of the fan. So that's the fan** 

### 12 **type categories for fans and blowers. We have** 

### 13 **axial, centrifugal mixed flow and then the** 

### 14 **blowers. We also divided the equipment** 

### 15 **classes by whether the fan was housed or** 

### 16 **unhoused, additional safety features and also** 

### 17 **by equipment utility, product utility as** 

### 18 **dictated by the impeller geometry.** 

### 19 **So generally, the equipment classes** 

### 20 **are divided by performance-related features** 

### 21 **that may impact the utility of the product and** 

### 22 **therefore would justify separate energy**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 197**  **1 conservation standards. And so this list is**  

### 2 **for a Regulatory Regime 1. And if we were to** 

### 3 **consider Regulatory Regimes 2 and 3, we would** 

### 4 **have sort of another set of equipment classes** 

### 5 **that would mirror this set of equipment** 

### 6 **classes.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: So the equipment** 

### 8 **class differentiation is important and it may** 

### 9 **be that the manufacturing community doesn't** 

### 10 **have a full range of comment at this time, but** 

### 11 **if you do, that would be useful for the** 

### 12 **Department.** 

### 13 **MS. IYAMA: Right. Another part of** 

### 14 **the Market and Technology Assessment is to** 

### 15 **identify the technology options to improve** 

### 16 **efficiency and here we have listed the** 

### 17 **technology options as identified in the** 

### 18 **framework document, first for bare shaft fans** 

### 19 **and then for the fan combined equipment. So** 

### 20 **you can see them on this slide.** 

### 21 **Next, we get into the comment** 

### 22 **boxes. First slide, comments on the market**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 198**  **1 assessment in general, then we have two slides**  

### 2 **on the comments for equipment classes and then** 

### 3 **technology options. So I'll start with the** 

### 4 **first two comments.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, yes. Let me** 

### 6 **just make sure I'm with you. Yes.** 

### 7 **MS. IYAMA: DOE requests** 

### 8 **information that would contribute to the** 

### 9 **market assessment for fans. Examples of** 

### 10 **information include current equipment** 

### 11 **features, efficiencies and efficiency trends,** 

### 12 **historical shipments and prices by equipment** 

### 13 **class. DOE requests comment on the estimates** 

### 14 **of the number of U.S. fan manufacturers that** 

### 15 **could be considered small businesses.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: So let's go with** 

### 17 **those two first.** 

### 18 **Michael, are you ready?** 

### 19 **MR. IVANOVICH: Yes, Michael** 

### 20 **Ivanovich, AMCA International. AMCA advocates** 

### 21 **that DOE accepts AMCA's proposal for classes** 

### 22 **that we're going to be coming up within a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 199**  **1 little bit. AMCA is going to be actively**  

### 2 **researching its members for market** 

### 3 **information, but we cannot provide or will not** 

### 4 **provide pricing information because that** 

### 5 **information is confidential with our members.** 

### 6 **DOE would be pursuing that kind of information** 

### 7 **with individual manufacturers under** 

### 8 **nondisclosure agreements.** 

### 9 **AMCA reminds DOE that some data** 

### 10 **will be hard to find because of the nature of** 

### 11 **small businesses, they don't all have** 

### 12 **sophisticated information systems with** 

### 13 **databases that track shipments and things of** 

### 14 **that nature, so there's going to be a lot of** 

### 15 **manual pulling through their data type of** 

### 16 **thing.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Is there a common** 

### 18 **catalogue that's referenced? I'm wondering** 

### 19 **about how this data from many different** 

### 20 **companies, how it would be aggregated?** 

### 21 **MR. IVANOVICH: You have** 

### 22 **catalogues, but you're looking for some things**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 200**  **1 but like, for example, trend information,**  

### 2 **historical shipments and prices. That's the** 

### 3 **kind of thing that they're going to go back** 

### 4 **into the records manually for many of them.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 6 **MR. IVANOVICH: We'd also like to** 

### 7 **say that some information will be available by** 

### 8 **the comment deadline, but we're going to** 

### 9 **probably have to provide more information** 

### 10 **after that deadline as well.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: And 5-2, estimates** 

### 12 **of the number of U.S. fan manufacturers that** 

### 13 **could be considered small businesses?** 

### 14 **MR. IVANOVICH: AMCA affirms DOE's** 

### 15 **estimate of small businesses is in the** 

### 16 **ballpark. DOE estimated about 87 percent by** 

### 17 **employment according to Small Business** 

### 18 **Administration definitions. Based on our** 

### 19 **estimates and based on revenue, less than $10** 

### 20 **million a year were on 80 percent, and we view** 

### 21 **these high percentages suggest that a phased** 

### 22 **approach to regulation is necessary.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 201**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I welcome any**  

### 2 **additional comments on these two before we** 

### 3 **move on.** 

### 4 **MS. IYAMA: Now comments related to** 

### 5 **the equipment classes. DOE welcomes comment** 

### 6 **on performance-related features that DOE** 

### 7 **should consider when defining fan equipment** 

### 8 **classes. DOE requests comment on whether** 

### 9 **transmission type should be considered when** 

### 10 **determining equipment classes. DOE requests** 

### 11 **comment on whether the development of separate** 

### 12 **equipment classes is necessary to accommodate** 

### 13 **different performance characteristics of fans** 

### 14 **sold bare shaft versus fans sold with the** 

### 15 **motor transmission or controls.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe we could just** 

### 17 **stop there and do the top three first.** 

### 18 **Performance-related features of equipment** 

### 19 **classes. Are we all in a position to -- could** 

### 20 **you go back to the equipment class?** 

### 21 **Yes, Tim?** 

### 22 **MR. KUSKI: Tim Kuski representing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 202**  **1 AMCA. At the appropriate time, I've got two**  

### 2 **more slides I'd like to go over, but it would** 

### 3 **address all of the issues in 5-3 through 5-17.** 

### 4 **So whenever that's appropriate, I'll address** 

### 5 **that.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: I'm wondering** 

### 7 **whether you should do that early or do that** 

### 8 **after we receive other comments.** 

### 9 **MR. KUSKI: It may be good to start** 

### 10 **it out, start the discussion.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 12 **MS. IYAMA: Since it covers 5-3** 

### 13 **through 5-17, I didn't read through the** 

### 14 **comments.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: That's okay. We'll** 

### 16 **double back.** 

### 17 **MS. IYAMA: All right.** 

### 18 **MR. KUSKI: And start on -- I think** 

### 19 **it's Slide 2. That's it. So these slides** 

### 20 **aren't as exciting and colorful as the other** 

### 21 **ones, but it's still going to help tell the** 

### 22 **story.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 203**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: It's pretty**  

### 2 **exciting.** 

### 3 **MR. KUSKI: That's right. This is** 

### 4 **after lunch. I should have had them now. So** 

### 5 **I guess what we're going to do here is** 

### 6 **ultimately make some proposed changes to the** 

### 7 **DOE bare shaft equipment classifications that** 

### 8 **were shown up on Slide 51. And what we're** 

### 9 **going to do is we're going to propose 12** 

### 10 **different classes. However, we're going to** 

### 11 **suggest that the last two be exempt, so** 

### 12 **essentially we're proposing ten different** 

### 13 **equipment classifications for this regulation.** 

### 14 **And the reason we're doing this is** 

### 15 **we think the proposed classes are a little too** 

### 16 **broad in scope and they inconsistently include** 

### 17 **geometry which was referred to as aerodynamic** 

### 18 **shape. And it also included application, like** 

### 19 **one was for dust-laden air and one was for** 

### 20 **clean air.** 

### 21 **What we're worried is that the DOE** 

### 22 **proposal could eliminate complete types of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 204**  **1 fans that were created to meet a specific**  

### 2 **application need, impacting their utility and** 

### 3 **having the unintended consequence of using** 

### 4 **more energy. So when we laid these new** 

### 5 **categories out, it was based on application,** 

### 6 **things like pressure, the way you install it,** 

### 7 **whether that fan is typically ducted or** 

### 8 **nonducted. And bear in mind and we know this,** 

### 9 **the audience may not, but when we design fans** 

### 10 **to do certain types of jobs, for example, to** 

### 11 **sit on a rooftop and protect the discharge,** 

### 12 **from weather from coming in, we impact the** 

### 13 **efficiency of that fan. We lower it.** 

### 14 **On this slide we're looking at** 

### 15 **here, I want to give an example. Right now,** 

### 16 **one of the first classifications is** 

### 17 **centrifugal clean air housed equipment. Now** 

### 18 **right now this would include an air foil** 

### 19 **centrifugal, a backward curved centrifugal, a** 

### 20 **backward inclined centrifugal, and a forward** 

### 21 **curved centrifugal. And the efficiency of** 

### 22 **those products varies widely. So if there was**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 205**  **1 a minimum setoff there, a minimum efficiency**  

### 2 **standard established, a whole product line,** 

### 3 **for example, the forward curved fan could be** 

### 4 **eliminated.** 

### 5 **And the forward curved fan is shown** 

### 6 **in the top image. Excellent solution for** 

### 7 **ducted fan applications at low pressures and** 

### 8 **it results in very low first cost. It results** 

### 9 **in a low energy cost. It has a very compact** 

### 10 **size and it's used for low sound.** 

### 11 **In a typical application of forward** 

### 12 **curved fans in commercial ventilation,** 

### 13 **bathroom exhaust, return and exhaust fans and** 

### 14 **air handlers, and general exhaust fans.** 

### 15 **Next slide, please?** 

### 16 **Here's another category that could** 

### 17 **cause some problems and it's low pressure** 

### 18 **applications without an outlet duct. And a** 

### 19 **typical application is a power roof** 

### 20 **ventilator.** 

### 21 **Even with the low FEG or** 

### 22 **aerodynamic quality, a power roof ventilator**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 206**  **1 could consume less energy than a more**  

### 2 **efficient centrifugal fan. The example shown** 

### 3 **here is roof top application with an operating** 

### 4 **point of 35,000 CFM at a quarter inch of** 

### 5 **static pressure.** 

### 6 **And on the left, the roof propeller** 

### 7 **fan, which we refer to commonly as the power** 

### 8 **roof ventilator has a 54-inch axial propeller,** 

### 9 **consumes only 6.64 break horsepower, but it** 

### 10 **has an FEG grade that's relatively low, 57.** 

### 11 **And if that product was eliminated, for** 

### 12 **example, and you had to put a utility set or a** 

### 13 **centrifugal fan on the roof, one with an air** 

### 14 **foil wheel, that would require that** 

### 15 **centrifugal fan to be a size 49-inch wheel and** 

### 16 **consume 10.35 horsepower. Again, it's got a** 

### 17 **very high FEG value, but when those fans are** 

### 18 **applied at very pressures, you know, near a** 

### 19 **quarter of an inch, they consume more energy.** 

### 20 **And then the other factors to look** 

### 21 **at, we talked about this just a littler** 

### 22 **earlier, look at the cost factor. The utility**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 207**  **1 fan, even though much more efficient, costs**  

### 2 **2.4 times as much and consumes more energy.** 

### 3 **And then there's the weight factor also.** 

### 4 **Any questions on this slide?** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Question, yes, Alex** 

### 6 **Lekov, please. Right here.** 

### 7 **MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence** 

### 8 **Berkeley National Laboratory. So just wanted** 

### 9 **to understand that propeller fans are probably** 

### 10 **not comparable to the utility fans since those** 

### 11 **are in the unhoused product class as listed in** 

### 12 **this table compared to the housed. Therefore,** 

### 13 **they have different efficiency standards.** 

### 14 **MR. KUSKI: Alex, there's also** 

### 15 **power roof ventilators that have centrifugal** 

### 16 **wheels in them and they perform a similar** 

### 17 **function. So if they were to go into a housed** 

### 18 **centrifugal category, the centrifugal power** 

### 19 **roof ventilators would probably be eliminated** 

### 20 **if a reasonable efficiency was set for like an** 

### 21 **air foil centrifugal.** 

### 22 **We're saying the way the categories**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 208**  **1 are, whole product lines that do well at low**  

### 2 **pressure, could be eliminated if we're not** 

### 3 **careful.** 

### 4 **MR. LEKOV: So my question is more** 

### 5 **specific. Propeller fans are unhoused fans,** 

### 6 **correct?** 

### 7 **MR. KUSKI: Well, we have propeller** 

### 8 **fans that are just in a panel and we'd call** 

### 9 **that unhoused, but what would you call this** 

### 10 **fan here with a covering over the top of that?** 

### 11 **Is that housed or unhoused?** 

### 12 **MR. LEKOV: Thank you.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: You could imagine** 

### 14 **the Department wants to establish not 100 of** 

### 15 **them and they want to have some -- they want** 

### 16 **to make sure that they are sort of indicative** 

### 17 **and sufficient to -- right -- to a majority of** 

### 18 **the uses out there can fit somehow, amicably,** 

### 19 **in there, right? Go ahead.** 

### 20 **MR. HARTLEIN: This is Dan** 

### 21 **Hartlein, again, for AMCA. We're moving** 

### 22 **through a process here and we're going to get**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 209**  **1 to a recommendation and category. We're just**  

### 2 **trying to do a little background data, so bear** 

### 3 **with us while we go through that.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy wants to** 

### 5 **comment here.** 

### 6 **MS. KOHL: I've been discussing a** 

### 7 **little bit with Charlie here and we do look at** 

### 8 **utility impacts when we set standards and also** 

### 9 **equipment classes. So if there's some product** 

### 10 **utility or some feature that would counsel** 

### 11 **separating out that product class, like we** 

### 12 **don't want to have an unwieldy amount of them,** 

### 13 **but if there is some reason for a separate** 

### 14 **product class that would be good to provide in** 

### 15 **your comments.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so we** 

### 17 **interrupted. Let's keep --** 

### 18 **MR. KUSKI: And we're getting** 

### 19 **through that we will provide this in written** 

### 20 **comment.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: So keep going.** 

### 22 **You're doing well.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 210**  **1 MR. KUSKI: I'm going to read**  

### 2 **through some of the changes we made. What** 

### 3 **you're looking at is a slide of our resulting** 

### 4 **recommended product classes. First of all, we** 

### 5 **start with the DOE recommendation and we** 

### 6 **divided centrifugal clean air housed into two** 

### 7 **categories. One was equipment class 3, housed** 

### 8 **centrifugal backward inclined and the other** 

### 9 **one was equipment class 4, housed centrifugal** 

### 10 **forward curved. So in essence, splitting this** 

### 11 **up would save that product called the forward** 

### 12 **curved fan which has a lot of good utility,** 

### 13 **low cost, low sound, low energy.** 

### 14 **Second, we combined --** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Further** 

### 16 **differentiated what is characterized as housed** 

### 17 **or unhoused globally in there, right there.** 

### 18 **MR. KUSKI: Yes, we do.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, keep going.** 

### 20 **MR. KUSKI: We also combined** 

### 21 **centrifugal dust air housed and centrifugal** 

### 22 **material handling housed into one category.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 211**  **1 That's equipment class 5. We called it housed**  

### 2 **centrifugal radial bladed. That's another** 

### 3 **class of fan with a different specific speed** 

### 4 **ratio, different application, high pressure,** 

### 5 **low flow.** 

### 6 **The other thing, we eliminated the** 

### 7 **categories of blowers, both blowers axial and** 

### 8 **blowers centrifugal because we thought those** 

### 9 **types of products could be combined into other** 

### 10 **categories, namely the axial ones and the** 

### 11 **centrifugal ones.** 

### 12 **We chose to eliminate safety fans** 

### 13 **and there was two of those, axial safety fans** 

### 14 **and centrifugal safety fans and we also chose** 

### 15 **to eliminate cross flow housed fans as a** 

### 16 **regulated category. Those fans, their** 

### 17 **usefulness and utility isn't well measured by** 

### 18 **fan efficiency, so we chose to leave them out.** 

### 19 **We did add two categories of power** 

### 20 **roof ventilators, both the axial and the** 

### 21 **centrifugal. The axial do very well with** 

### 22 **nonducted inlets and outlets, of course. And**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 212**  **1 the centrifugals do well if you have a short**  

### 2 **amount of inlet duct. For example, a grease** 

### 3 **exhaust application for a restaurant or any** 

### 4 **other -- a bathroom exhaust fan would be a** 

### 5 **good example, where a centrifugal exhaust fan** 

### 6 **is applied. And those would be classes 9 and** 

### 7 **10.** 

### 8 **And then we created separate** 

### 9 **classes for circulating fans and air curtains,** 

### 10 **classes 11 and 12, but we again, we feel those** 

### 11 **two should be exempt from this because their** 

### 12 **efficiency isn't a good measure of their value** 

### 13 **or their utility.** 

### 14 **And that's all I have.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 16 **MR. LLENZA: This is Charles** 

### 17 **Llenza, the Department of Energy. Does this** 

### 18 **map at all with the European Union type** 

### 19 **applications or fan types?** 

### 20 **MR. STEVENS: I don't know that** 

### 21 **offhand, but it's pretty close. The EU has** 

### 22 **much fewer categories than what we're**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 213**  **1 proposing here.**  

### 2 **MR. KUSKI: This is Tim from AMCA.** 

### 3 **The Europeans have only six categories, but** 

### 4 **they separate ducted and nonducted, so they** 

### 5 **essentially double, almost double those six** 

### 6 **categories. I think they end up with ten.** 

### 7 **MR. LLENZA: So another thing to** 

### 8 **consider in your comments to the Department** 

### 9 **would be in this mapping that you're providing** 

### 10 **us, also to provide the test procedures that** 

### 11 **we should be using for each one of these and** 

### 12 **that helps us, you know, complete the cycle** 

### 13 **here for putting things together.** 

### 14 **MR. STEVENS: Just a comment.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: This is Mark** 

### 16 **speaking.** 

### 17 **MR. STEVENS: I'm sorry. This is** 

### 18 **Mark from AMCA, Mark Stevens. AMCA 210 would** 

### 19 **be used for all of those classes except for 7.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: So that's an** 

### 21 **interesting -- okay.** 

### 22 **(Laughter.)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 214**  **1 Keep going.**  

### 2 **MR. KUSKI: Tim from AMCA again.** 

### 3 **And I forgot to mention we did add that** 

### 4 **induced flow category because there's a type** 

### 5 **of product out there used for laboratory fume** 

### 6 **exhaust applications and these are big fans** 

### 7 **and they use a lot of energy, but they develop** 

### 8 **a very high velocity of air at the outlet of** 

### 9 **these fans in an effort to induce more outside** 

### 10 **air to create a big momentum of air to carry a** 

### 11 **plume up high in the air and dilute it.** 

### 12 **And you pay a penalty for** 

### 13 **accelerating that air which shows up as a** 

### 14 **reduced efficiency. So we thought it should** 

### 15 **have its own category and as Mark mentioned,** 

### 16 **the AMCA test standard developed for that is** 

### 17 **AMCA 260.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: I just want to** 

### 19 **finish this little comment, this segment with** 

### 20 **Michael and then I'm going to go Louis and** 

### 21 **Andrew. Louis, you're next.** 

### 22 **MR. STARR: Would it be accurate to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 215**  **1 say that you could associate a flow and static**  

### 2 **pressure for each one of these? In other** 

### 3 **words, a static pressure and a flow range that** 

### 4 **are optimal to use these particular fans like** 

### 5 **let's say you're doing a prop fan for a** 

### 6 **warehouse and you're trying to get air in and** 

### 7 **ventilating the house to have a very low** 

### 8 **static pressure and probably a fairly medium** 

### 9 **flow. And so it kind of based upon setting up** 

### 10 **certain parameters it would then define the** 

### 11 **class and then it would make certain -- in** 

### 12 **other words, a centrifugal fan wouldn't make** 

### 13 **sense in that application, right? It would** 

### 14 **actually be inefficient. So by setting up** 

### 15 **efficiency with given pressure and flow** 

### 16 **ranges, would that make a lot of sense for** 

### 17 **defining efficiency in those classes or not** 

### 18 **really?** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Dan.** 

### 20 **MR. HARTLEIN: This is Dan Hartlein** 

### 21 **again. My answer to that would be yes and no.** 

### 22 **There are places where that's absolutely an**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 216**  **1 accurate statement and would work. The range**  

### 2 **of application of house centrifugal, for** 

### 3 **example, is very, very broad. So the specific** 

### 4 **speed range across which people manufacture a** 

### 5 **centrifugal fan is tremendous. So there lies** 

### 6 **the complexity of what you said in that** 

### 7 **product, but in many of those products, I** 

### 8 **think you might be able to do some things** 

### 9 **there.** 

### 10 **MR. STARR: And a follow-up** 

### 11 **question to that, splitting that between** 

### 12 **housed and unhoused centrifugal fans, what --** 

### 13 **I missed -- what was -- why would you want an** 

### 14 **unhoused centrifugal fan? It seems like** 

### 15 **inherently that's going to help you direct** 

### 16 **your flow. Some of those efficiencies in** 

### 17 **terms of how flow comes in, is that more for** 

### 18 **applications that go in OEM equipment?** 

### 19 **MR. KUSKI: Tim from AMCA. There** 

### 20 **has been a lot of change in the market to** 

### 21 **unhoused fans in the air handling marketplace.** 

### 22 **And they typically refer to them as plenum**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 217**  **1 fans. And when you take the scroll or the**  

### 2 **housing off, you lose six or seven points of** 

### 3 **efficiency. However, you can really minimize** 

### 4 **the footprint of the air handler and they're** 

### 5 **concerned about the velocity profile that** 

### 6 **comes off of that fan and moves through a** 

### 7 **downstream coil. And this unhoused plenum fan** 

### 8 **has a very even velocity profile so then the** 

### 9 **coil efficiency downstream is improved. They** 

### 10 **can make a good argument for that type of** 

### 11 **product.** 

### 12 **MR. STARR: So the other part, too,** 

### 13 **isn't the unhoused fan a little less** 

### 14 **expensive? I mean in other words, just the** 

### 15 **plenum fan. Also, the other part of that,** 

### 16 **too, is they're not getting their inlet** 

### 17 **conditions. In other words, their air handler** 

### 18 **or whatever, they're not getting the proper** 

### 19 **inlet conditions so the next best option to** 

### 20 **that is to have an unhoused situation where** 

### 21 **you just dump air into the side of your fan** 

### 22 **because you can't get the ductwork coming into**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 218**  **1 the bottom. So it almost seems like it's one**  

### 2 **of those work arounds and applications. It's** 

### 3 **like it's a sub-optimal solution to a problem.** 

### 4 **It's like you're in a fix and then you're** 

### 5 **applying the solution to that application. Or** 

### 6 **is it more have real utility that's like this** 

### 7 **-- if I was designing it right I would do it** 

### 8 **this way?** 

### 9 **MR. KUSKI: Tim from AMCA. You** 

### 10 **never want to mess with the inlet conditions.** 

### 11 **You don't want to bring in air at a right** 

### 12 **angle. However, on the outlet, with these** 

### 13 **plenum fans, they can choose to have air turn** 

### 14 **90 degrees in that unit or if they build the** 

### 15 **unit big enough that air can go through in an** 

### 16 **axial direction. And that's the flexibility** 

### 17 **that a housed centrifugal would not offer** 

### 18 **them.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Dan, go ahead.** 

### 20 **MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein again.** 

### 21 **One of the additional things, we're talking** 

### 22 **about industrial fans as well. So there is a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 219**  **1 product that's a plug fan. And the plug fan**  

### 2 **is quite often designed into the furnace** 

### 3 **manufacturer's furnace as part of the process** 

### 4 **and in that scenario it's operating as an** 

### 5 **unhoused centrifugal fan and frankly, I'm not** 

### 6 **sure how you would house that centrifugal fan.** 

### 7 **So just as an example, there's a whole other** 

### 8 **range of products. And we have a comment.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Please, find the** 

### 10 **microphone and add on -- and Andrew, you're** 

### 11 **next.** 

### 12 **Your name, please?** 

### 13 **MR. SREJOVIC: Zika Srejovic from** 

### 14 **Twin City Fan. And I've been in the industry** 

### 15 **for a long time and probably was one of the** 

### 16 **first people to introduce the unhoused plenum** 

### 17 **fans in air handling units back in the early** 

### 18 **'70s, and maybe late '60s. And the reason for** 

### 19 **that was really that it was a good compromise** 

### 20 **between lower efficiency forward curved fans** 

### 21 **and higher efficiency of the backward inclined** 

### 22 **housed fans. And yes, it is true**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 220**  **1 that at a maximum efficiency the housed fan**  

### 2 **for the same size backward inclined is by five** 

### 3 **to six percent more efficient. However,** 

### 4 **somewhere in the mid-range of the performance** 

### 5 **curve they are about equal and as you get to** 

### 6 **the lower end of the curve, the unhoused fans** 

### 7 **can be even more efficient. So that was a** 

### 8 **good compromise between the fans with forward** 

### 9 **curved efficiency, perhaps in the high 50s and** 

### 10 **maybe 60 percent, and the other ones at 80** 

### 11 **percent, so you end up with a 70, 72 percent** 

### 12 **unhoused fans as a good solution. And it was** 

### 13 **space saving for the air handling people** 

### 14 **particularly, and that became a very, very big** 

### 15 **market in the last 20 years.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 17 **Andrew?** 

### 18 **MR. deLASKI: I have a general** 

### 19 **question for Tim. First of all, I think that** 

### 20 **coming up with ten product classes is** 

### 21 **admirable. That's a manageable number in** 

### 22 **terms of that high-level comment.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 221**  **1 The question I have for you is are**  

### 2 **there any -- if you think about the market,** 

### 3 **and I understand that your goal in developing** 

### 4 **the fan classes was to protect products that** 

### 5 **offer specific utility, offers specific** 

### 6 **function to marketplace.** 

### 7 **The flip side of that is having** 

### 8 **classes where the classes serve the same** 

### 9 **utility, so as you look at these ten classes,** 

### 10 **where do you see that challenge arising the** 

### 11 **most? Are there classes here where you see** 

### 12 **the most overlap of application?** 

### 13 **MR. KUSKI: Tim from AMCA. As you** 

### 14 **set and continue to set the bar on efficiency** 

### 15 **metrics in each of these categories, products** 

### 16 **will fall out of that on the market.** 

### 17 **Efficient products will fall out. And a good** 

### 18 **example of that is number 8, centrifugal in** 

### 19 **line and mixed flow fans. And there's a very,** 

### 20 **very broad range of products that fit in the** 

### 21 **same space, a straight duct and they range** 

### 22 **from very inexpensive and very inefficient to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 222**  **1 very expensive and very efficient. Right away**  

### 2 **with this regulation, there would be whole** 

### 3 **product classes, for example, square in-line** 

### 4 **fans with no straightening vanes. That would** 

### 5 **be eliminated.** 

### 6 **So I think there's -- am I** 

### 7 **misunderstanding your question, Andrew, or** 

### 8 **not?** 

### 9 **MR. deLASKI: That's helpful. Of** 

### 10 **course, that all depends on where the standard** 

### 11 **shakes out and what makes sense for a** 

### 12 **standard. My question was are there classes** 

### 13 **in these ten classes that you're recommending** 

### 14 **for coverage by standards, are there classes** 

### 15 **where you see competition from one class to** 

### 16 **the other to meet the same market need?** 

### 17 **I know it's going to happen some,** 

### 18 **but where is that happening the most?** 

### 19 **MR. LLENZA: I think what he's** 

### 20 **referring to is do any of these classes of** 

### 21 **fans compete with each other in terms of being** 

### 22 **used in a market?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 223**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Or in the same kind**  

### 2 **of application.** 

### 3 **MR. LLENZA: Right.** 

### 4 **MR. KUSKI: Yes, they do compete.** 

### 5 **The fan market is a messy market. There's a** 

### 6 **lot of products out there. You can put a vane** 

### 7 **axial fan or a mixed flow fan or a tube axial** 

### 8 **in the same piece of duct to do 5,000 CFM at** 

### 9 **an inch and a half. And your tradeoffs are** 

### 10 **price, efficiency, sound levels, physical** 

### 11 **size, that type of thing.** 

### 12 **MR. deLASKI: A standard raises the** 

### 13 **bar for everything if you're not at the same** 

### 14 **level, but as you do that, as you have** 

### 15 **differential effects across these classes,** 

### 16 **you're going to have effects in the** 

### 17 **marketplace.** 

### 18 **MR. KUSKI: Yes.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Dan.** 

### 20 **MR. HARTLEIN: I want to add a** 

### 21 **comment. Dan Hartlein, Twin City Fan** 

### 22 **representing AMCA here. You used the term**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 224**  **1 protect the classes. I think we actually took**  

### 2 **this from a little different angle. And the** 

### 3 **angle we took was where can we set efficiency** 

### 4 **standards to avoid unintended consequences of** 

### 5 **this legislation?** 

### 6 **So we took an approach that was** 

### 7 **different than trying to protect the class,** 

### 8 **but really look at where the products within** 

### 9 **these classes are performing a utility perhaps** 

### 10 **at the most efficient that we could imagine.** 

### 11 **Based on applying some of these other higher** 

### 12 **efficient products, we actually take -- we may** 

### 13 **have the unintended consequence of a higher** 

### 14 **energy use. So we spent a lot of time on this** 

### 15 **and it's, I think, quite well thought out and** 

### 16 **it was done for that reason more than to** 

### 17 **protect a particular class of fans, if you** 

### 18 **will.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Good. Sanaee,** 

### 20 **looking at these classes and what they've** 

### 21 **presented here, do you have any questions for** 

### 22 **them?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 225**  **1 MS. IYAMA: Not at this point.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Not at this point.** 

### 3 **Okay, so let's go to 52, slide 52.** 

### 4 **MR. LLENZA: I have a question.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charles Llenza, yes.** 

### 6 **MR. LLENZA: These classes that** 

### 7 **they presented, does the technical team have** 

### 8 **any particular questions that the industry** 

### 9 **should be providing us in terms of data or** 

### 10 **reasoning or anything else like that?** 

### 11 **MS. IYAMA: Definitely the** 

### 12 **reasoning behind why you think forward curved** 

### 13 **should be separated from backward inclined,** 

### 14 **etcetera. You explained that already, but** 

### 15 **giving us the details, the entire reasoning** 

### 16 **that led to those 10, 12 equipment classes** 

### 17 **will definitely be helpful. And the** 

### 18 **indication of overlapping utility, also.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: I guess each one of** 

### 20 **these classes would require something of a** 

### 21 **definition as well, right? Okay.** 

### 22 **Detlef.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 226**  **1 MR. WESTPHALEN: Detlef Westphalen,**  

### 2 **Navigant Consulting. I just have a question.** 

### 3 **A couple of the examples that you provided** 

### 4 **were like the power roof ventilator versus the** 

### 5 **centrifugal. If you provided the 15 percent** 

### 6 **maximum differential, would you run into those** 

### 7 **situations with that kind of a different, a** 

### 8 **very different picture? Would the 15 percent** 

### 9 **rule avoid those situations?** 

### 10 **MR. KUSKI: Tim from AMCA. If you** 

### 11 **applied the 15 percent rule, you'd see those** 

### 12 **same type of variances that I showed you here.** 

### 13 **So you'd be able to go back and catalog data** 

### 14 **that you can get online. You'll be able to** 

### 15 **make similar selections to this.** 

### 16 **MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay, thanks.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.** 

### 18 **MR. STARR: So like a typical HVAC,** 

### 19 **I will say an air handler, but it could just** 

### 20 **be something where you're ducting air, you** 

### 21 **could in that case use a forward curved fan** 

### 22 **which are basically -- or an air foil fan**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 227**  **1 which has blades that have less pressure drop**  

### 2 **or you could use a forward curved. The** 

### 3 **forward curved would be cheaper, but the air** 

### 4 **foil would be more efficient in doing it. So** 

### 5 **I think also in your selection curves you end** 

### 6 **up, it gives you, using Addendum U you have a** 

### 7 **wider range to select on a forward curved fan** 

### 8 **that's more efficient and a narrower range on** 

### 9 **the -- you have a wider range in air foil and** 

### 10 **a slimmer range in the other one.** 

### 11 **But in terms of the price, it's** 

### 12 **still better if you're trying to do something** 

### 13 **less expensive, you probably would go with** 

### 14 **just the air foil in the same application. So** 

### 15 **you're not really necessarily the efficiency,** 

### 16 **if you split it up into a class, it's kind of** 

### 17 **what the overlapping of the utility. It seems** 

### 18 **like at least in that specific example there** 

### 19 **really is overlapping utility.** 

### 20 **So when you have two classes that** 

### 21 **one is naturally a more efficient fan, it** 

### 22 **seems like there might be a problem in that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 228**  **1 area, but I mean I guess if there really is**  

### 2 **specific -- I know there are specific utility** 

### 3 **where you use a forward curved, but you would** 

### 4 **not use an air foil.** 

### 5 **MR. KUSKI: Tim from AMCA. Yes,** 

### 6 **the main utility is compact size and low** 

### 7 **sound. You would end up putting a much, much** 

### 8 **bigger airfoil unit to deliver the same amount** 

### 9 **of air.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: We have a question** 

### 11 **from a person online. Danielle Fox writes,** 

### 12 **"could AMCA explain why unhoused axial fans** 

### 13 **are in the same class with tube axial fans?"** 

### 14 **MR. KUSKI: Tim from AMCA. Good** 

### 15 **question, Danielle.** 

### 16 **(Laughter.)** 

### 17 **She found our weak spot.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Danielle, thank you.** 

### 19 **Danielle Fox.** 

### 20 **MR. LLENZA: Just to clarify, it's** 

### 21 **one of our technical team's parties in** 

### 22 **California.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 229**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. KUSKI: We argued long and hard** 

### 3 **where to put tube axial fans whether they** 

### 4 **should be up in the vane axial category or the** 

### 5 **panel fan category. Most vane axials are** 

### 6 **ducted and they're designed for high pressure.** 

### 7 **Tube axial fans are often ducted, but they're** 

### 8 **better at low pressures. So we could possibly** 

### 9 **have them up there.** 

### 10 **The other thing, panel fans, if you** 

### 11 **had a nonducted sidewall application and you** 

### 12 **wanted to raise the efficiency some amount,** 

### 13 **you could drop a tube axial fan in there and** 

### 14 **you'd be in some length in there, but you'd** 

### 15 **get a few points of efficiency.** 

### 16 **MR. HARTLEIN: I just want to add,** 

### 17 **Dan Hartlein again, that that debate that we** 

### 18 **had which was a long one on this, really kind** 

### 19 **of landed at the fact that in a vane axial fan** 

### 20 **vane, the turning vanes are there to** 

### 21 **efficiently redirect a swirl into an axial** 

### 22 **flow.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 230**  **1 In the tube axial fan at such low**  

### 2 **pressures, the vane can actually become a** 

### 3 **pressure drop. And so the vane at those** 

### 4 **pressures can actually not accentuate** 

### 5 **efficiency, but it can actually cost you** 

### 6 **efficiency.** 

### 7 **So that's kind of the basis for the** 

### 8 **ultimate decision to put it there because it's** 

### 9 **operating without the straightening vane** 

### 10 **section and at low pressures it will operate** 

### 11 **better than the fan with the straightening** 

### 12 **vane section.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 14 **MR. KUSKI: So Tim from AMCA, I** 

### 15 **just -- she hit us in a weak spot and there** 

### 16 **could conceivably, maybe someone could make** 

### 17 **arguments it should be in its own category,** 

### 18 **the tube axial fan.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis, go** 

### 20 **ahead. I'm eager to move on here. Go ahead.** 

### 21 **MR. STARR: Just one last thing,** 

### 22 **the circulation fans, where do exhaust fans**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 231**  **1 for building a bathroom exhaust that type of**  

### 2 **thing, is that a circulation fan?** 

### 3 **MR. STEVENS: This is Mark.** 

### 4 **Actually, it's a circulating fan. It's the** 

### 5 **fans that would be on your desktop or hanging** 

### 6 **from the ceiling.** 

### 7 **MR. STARR: Okay.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go to Slide** 

### 9 **52. Another thing the Department is always** 

### 10 **interested in is to ask industry and everyone** 

### 11 **for that matter this question about the** 

### 12 **technology options to improve efficiency.** 

### 13 **They're wanting to get your thoughts on not** 

### 14 **only what's here, what's possible and sort of** 

### 15 **trendline information as well. So maybe you** 

### 16 **could comment. I'm sure that's going to be in** 

### 17 **a comment box at some point there.** 

### 18 **Slide 52 is this listing of** 

### 19 **technology options.** 

### 20 **MS. IYAMA: Yes, there are some** 

### 21 **comments that I could read.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: So what do you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 232**  **1 think? Gary, you want to start off? Please.**  

### 2 **MR. FERNSTROM: I wanted to go back** 

### 3 **to air curtain fan.** 

### 4 **(Laughter.)** 

### 5 **And ask if the industry feels** 

### 6 **there's not an opportunity to improve these or** 

### 7 **why it thinks they should be exempted?** 

### 8 **Because we think there are a prevalent number** 

### 9 **of those and there is an efficiency** 

### 10 **improvement opportunity associated with them.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Would someone** 

### 12 **define, so we're clear what they are? I think** 

### 13 **we know what they are.** 

### 14 **Mark?** 

### 15 **MR. STEVENS: Well, an air curtain** 

### 16 **is really a device that encloses a fan inside** 

### 17 **of it. And these fans that are inside are** 

### 18 **usually either forward curved or radial fans.** 

### 19 **So an air curtain would be mounted above a** 

### 20 **door to create somewhat of a partition when** 

### 21 **the door is open to keep material from going** 

### 22 **back and forth or across the door, to keep**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 233**  **1 some sort of air conditioning barrier when the**  

### 2 **door is open.** 

### 3 **Now why are we suggesting that they** 

### 4 **be not included? I'm the secretary for ISO** 

### 5 **Working Group 9 which is part of TC117. And** 

### 6 **this group is -- Working Group 9 is concerned** 

### 7 **with air curtains and what they're busy doing** 

### 8 **is developing a test standard on air curtain** 

### 9 **effectiveness. And it's not a measure of the** 

### 10 **efficiency of the unit itself, but how** 

### 11 **effective is that air curtain in its** 

### 12 **operation?** 

### 13 **What they want to measure is the** 

### 14 **energy going into the air curtain, inclusive** 

### 15 **of the air conditioning required when air** 

### 16 **conditioning is operating versus the energy** 

### 17 **going into the air conditioning when the air** 

### 18 **curtain is not operating, and characterizing** 

### 19 **that or defining that as the effectiveness of** 

### 20 **the air curtain. So that, in their mind, is a** 

### 21 **better method of determining how well that air** 

### 22 **curtain is working.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 234**  **1 MR. FERNSTROM: So if I could**  

### 2 **restate that your hypothesizing that a less** 

### 3 **efficient air curtain fan might actually** 

### 4 **improve the insulating effect and give you** 

### 5 **greater savings in building cooling or** 

### 6 **heating.** 

### 7 **MR. STEVENS: This is Mark. Yes,** 

### 8 **that's very true. One of the characteristics** 

### 9 **of an air curtain is a uniform velocity** 

### 10 **profile at the exit plane of the air curtain.** 

### 11 **However, those fans that are used to give you** 

### 12 **that uniform plane are not very efficient of** 

### 13 **themselves, but they make the air curtain work** 

### 14 **better.** 

### 15 **MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, I understand.** 

### 16 **Thank you.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Dan.** 

### 18 **MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein, again** 

### 19 **speaking for AMCA. I believe that the logic** 

### 20 **there and also for circulating fans was** 

### 21 **exactly the same. These are by fan standards** 

### 22 **relatively low efficient fans, but they are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 235**  **1 saving energy by their application. And a**  

### 2 **circulating fan allows somebody to turn the** 

### 3 **thermostat down in the winter or up in the** 

### 4 **summer and allows us to consume less energy by** 

### 5 **the fact that that product is used.** 

### 6 **MR. LLENZA: This is Charles** 

### 7 **Llenza, Department of Energy. Those** 

### 8 **particular fans, for example, within that** 

### 9 **category could we not achieve maybe some kind** 

### 10 **of improvements in efficiency although** 

### 11 **different than maybe other categories? Could** 

### 12 **you still achieve efficiencies within that** 

### 13 **category?** 

### 14 **MR. HARTLEIN: This is Mark again,** 

### 15 **it's possible, but again, if you -- what** 

### 16 **you're really aiming for is a uniform, high** 

### 17 **velocity profile out the exit plane of that** 

### 18 **air curtain. And that might mean that that is** 

### 19 **a terribly inefficient air curtain by itself,** 

### 20 **but it works great at its duty. So the answer** 

### 21 **is yes and no. The answer is maybe. There** 

### 22 **was a similar argument earlier on regarding**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 236**  **1 the fans inside furnaces.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 3 **MR. FERNSTROM: So let me go to the** 

### 4 **air circulation fan. I think I understand the** 

### 5 **argument for the air curtain, but in my mind** 

### 6 **an air circulation fan might be a table top** 

### 7 **fan that you'd put in your house. Yes, or a** 

### 8 **ceiling fan. For sure, having that air** 

### 9 **movement maybe makes you feel cooler and might** 

### 10 **result in a need for less air conditioning** 

### 11 **energy use. However, that doesn't mean that** 

### 12 **that terribly inefficient table fan couldn't** 

### 13 **be made better and still serve the same** 

### 14 **purpose. So I kind of buy into the argument** 

### 15 **for the air curtain fan, but I'm having a** 

### 16 **little more trouble with the circulation fan.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Michael.** 

### 18 **MR. IVANOVICH: Michael Ivanovich,** 

### 19 **AMCA International. I think part of the issue** 

### 20 **is in terms of the scoping, going after which** 

### 21 **part of the market first or in phases. And I** 

### 22 **think the better emphasis of DOE is on the ten**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 237**  **1 classes that AMCA is recommending.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: I want to shift,** 

### 3 **once again, to Slide 52 and hear from anybody** 

### 4 **about technology options that might be pursued** 

### 5 **to advance efficiency and trendlines also.** 

### 6 **That's also useful and important. Who wants** 

### 7 **to start? It might be useful to confirm this** 

### 8 **list.** 

### 9 **Yes, please. It's Ethan?** 

### 10 **MR. ROGERS: Yes, Ethan Rogers with** 

### 11 **ACEEE. One of the thoughts we had about any** 

### 12 **type of control technology is the inclusion of** 

### 13 **some type of feedback loop. There has to be a** 

### 14 **sensor, otherwise the variable speed drive is** 

### 15 **just an expensive drive with a parasitic load.** 

### 16 **So I think if you're going to include that in** 

### 17 **there, there has to be discussion of the fact** 

### 18 **that it's got some intelligence to it.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 20 **Michael?** 

### 21 **(Pause.)** 

### 22 **Okay, then we're going to move on.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 238**  **1 We're now getting behind.**  

### 2 **Alex, find a microphone.** 

### 3 **MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov. Lawrence** 

### 4 **Berkeley National Laboratory. On second** 

### 5 **thought, I would like to return to the product** 

### 6 **classes to get the qualification on the** 

### 7 **radials fan product class which was identified** 

### 8 **in the original proposal of the, centrifugal** 

### 9 **fans was supposed to separate the radial tip** 

### 10 **bladed, radial and open panel versus the** 

### 11 **radial with the back plate. And the reason is** 

### 12 **the radial with the back plate are for -- our** 

### 13 **understanding based on the literature is for** 

### 14 **material handling. They have significantly** 

### 15 **lower efficiency.** 

### 16 **So just to make sure that at least,** 

### 17 **maybe not now, but in your responses, to** 

### 18 **address the issue of possibility of radial** 

### 19 **with a back plate to be considered at the** 

### 20 **different efficiency. Thank you.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Dan?** 

### 22 **MR. HARTLEIN: Thank you for that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 239**  **1 There are some products, actually, that are**  

### 2 **made specifically for very heavy material** 

### 3 **handling. You might even call them material** 

### 4 **pumps. And in our industry those are often** 

### 5 **cast products that serve a very, very useful** 

### 6 **purpose. So your clarification is correct and** 

### 7 **we'll take that up in the written comments.** 

### 8 **Thank you.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: So the last I heard** 

### 10 **was no additional comment on the technology** 

### 11 **options at this point, so we're moving then to** 

### 12 **-- Sanaee, did we finish most of these comment** 

### 13 **boxes through this conversation? Effective** 

### 14 **different blade materials on efficiency.** 

### 15 **Compatibility issues, certain fans, VSDs,** 

### 16 **considering VSDs as a means to improve fan** 

### 17 **efficiency. We kind of touched on that.** 

### 18 **Yes, Dan.** 

### 19 **MR. HARTLEIN: This is Dan** 

### 20 **Hartlein, Twin City Fan and AMCA. There are** 

### 21 **some compatibility issues with -- or there are** 

### 22 **some design considerations and perhaps**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 240**  **1 compatibility issues with variable frequency.**  

### 2 **First, I'd like to clear up a** 

### 3 **position that we kind of put forward earlier.** 

### 4 **In the commercial industry, there are very** 

### 5 **few, if perhaps none, no variable speed drives** 

### 6 **sold, variable frequency drives sold with the** 

### 7 **fan. In the industrial market, it happens a** 

### 8 **little more often. So as we move into the** 

### 9 **industrial business, maybe 20 percent of the** 

### 10 **time that a VFD is applied it's purchased from** 

### 11 **the fan manufacturer. Just for information.** 

### 12 **The second thing is that in** 

### 13 **designing for variable frequency operation,** 

### 14 **variable speed operation, several things have** 

### 15 **to be considered. One is that there is** 

### 16 **dynamic considerations for the rotor. And if** 

### 17 **we design the rotor to operate above what we** 

### 18 **consider first critical, that's a natural** 

### 19 **frequency where the fan gets excited and will** 

### 20 **frankly shake itself to death. Those** 

### 21 **offending frequencies in the operation range,** 

### 22 **you can't simply run every fan from zero speed**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 241**  **1 to operating catalog speed. There are places**  

### 2 **where you have to take and program that out.** 

### 3 **So that's one clarification.** 

### 4 **And another clarification we see** 

### 5 **this probably more in industrial fans than we** 

### 6 **do in commercial fans, but variable speed** 

### 7 **operation of a product not designed for it can** 

### 8 **lead to premature product failure. We have to** 

### 9 **consider the changes in speed on larger fans** 

### 10 **as start/stop cycles from a fatigue** 

### 11 **perspective. So there's a need to consider** 

### 12 **whether or not the application or the fan** 

### 13 **itself can handle the variable speed** 

### 14 **application from a structure and a strain in** 

### 15 **dynamic resonance perspective.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 17 **MR. LLENZA: Charles Llenza,** 

### 18 **Department of Energy. Also, from a technical** 

### 19 **point of view the installation of VFD** 

### 20 **frequency drives, you know, my technical team** 

### 21 **looked at the details of improper installation** 

### 22 **of that particular issue. If that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 242**  **1 installation is not properly done also it**  

### 2 **could be counter productive to the equipment** 

### 3 **in terms of its lifespan and also efficiency** 

### 4 **levels.** 

### 5 **If you could talk to a little bit** 

### 6 **about that maybe in your written comments, it** 

### 7 **would be appreciated.** 

### 8 **MR. HARTLEIN: Sure, and I'm happy** 

### 9 **to and prepared to make a brief comment now.** 

### 10 **Bearing currents, you can actually lead to** 

### 11 **stray bearings, stray currents grounding** 

### 12 **through bearings which shortens life** 

### 13 **drastically.** 

### 14 **The other comment I would make in** 

### 15 **variable frequency drives is that our motor** 

### 16 **suppliers have been moving on what is required** 

### 17 **in the motor to operate with the variable** 

### 18 **frequency drives. So that's a moving and** 

### 19 **evolving standard in and of itself and that's** 

### 20 **what product that the motor manufacturers are** 

### 21 **putting in the market that's capable of** 

### 22 **running with a variable frequency drive.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 243**  **1 What we would have done or what the**  

### 2 **motor people would have sold us compatible for** 

### 3 **a VFD six years ago is no longer offered** 

### 4 **compatible with a VFD. So that's evolving as** 

### 5 **well. So a side comment to that complexity.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rob?** 

### 7 **MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler. Just to** 

### 8 **pick up on that. The motors today all have** 

### 9 **insulated bearings because of the shaft** 

### 10 **currents in the fan. You end up with the same** 

### 11 **issue with shaft currents. So I'm sure they'd** 

### 12 **have to take a look at that and probably add** 

### 13 **that to the fans.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?** 

### 15 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 16 **On Item 5-18, different blade materials on** 

### 17 **efficiency, you're asking for like** 

### 18 **metallurgical or different chemical or plastic** 

### 19 **kind of -- that type of information in terms** 

### 20 **of its impact on the efficiency of the fan or** 

### 21 **the motor or the VSD?** 

### 22 **MS. IYAMA: I believe it's the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 244**  **1 impact of using different blade material on**  

### 2 **the efficiency of the fan.** 

### 3 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: And again, Steve** 

### 4 **Rosenstock, so yes, you're talking about the** 

### 5 **actual metallic or plastic compounds or** 

### 6 **mixtures that are being used for the blades** 

### 7 **and what -- if they're having any impact?** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charles Llenza.** 

### 9 **MR. LLENZA: Yes, plastic,** 

### 10 **aluminum, different kind of materials. It** 

### 11 **also could be a coating. It doesn't** 

### 12 **necessarily have to be the actual material of** 

### 13 **the blade, but it could be a coating for a** 

### 14 **particular use that these fans may have.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.** 

### 16 **MR. STARR: Just to note, too, on** 

### 17 **the utility of having a VFD with a fan is also** 

### 18 **getting it right size for the application. As** 

### 19 **things change in a factory and you need to** 

### 20 **adjust things up and down, and that VFD is** 

### 21 **beneficial even if you do maybe lose fan** 

### 22 **efficiency off your best efficiency point.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 245**  **1 And then in terms of technology,**  

### 2 **another thing I think they're working on is** 

### 3 **they're working on the ability to adjust the** 

### 4 **VFD, the reactive power between the motor and** 

### 5 **the VFD which can get out of whack. And there** 

### 6 **is some technology in that area such that you** 

### 7 **don't have as much losses in your VFDs and** 

### 8 **between your motors and VFDs and some other** 

### 9 **things in that which is something that is kind** 

### 10 **of evolving now. It is kind of some new** 

### 11 **technology that seems to be coming up.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm eager for us** 

### 13 **to pick up the pace here a little bit. The** 

### 14 **content has been excellent and we're kind of** 

### 15 **commenting, I think, mostly at the appropriate** 

### 16 **level, but we've got much more ground to cover** 

### 17 **here. So we're going to press ahead here.** 

### 18 **MS. IYAMA: So I'll move on to the** 

### 19 **next chapter which is the screening analysis.** 

### 20 **So for the screening analysis DOE will take** 

### 21 **the technology options that we identified in** 

### 22 **the Market and Technology Assessment and we'll**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 246**  **1 screen out several of them based on the four**  

### 2 **following criteria: technological** 

### 3 **feasibility; practicability to manufacture,** 

### 4 **install, and service; impacts on product** 

### 5 **utility or availability to consumers; and** 

### 6 **impact on health and safety.** 

### 7 **The remaining technology options** 

### 8 **are referred to as design options are then fed** 

### 9 **into the engineering analysis. And here we** 

### 10 **have a comment box. On the screening** 

### 11 **analysis, are there any technologies that DOE** 

### 12 **should not consider because of any of the four** 

### 13 **screening criteria? If so, which screening** 

### 14 **criteria apply to the cited technology** 

### 15 **options?** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: No comment at this** 

### 17 **time? No comment at this time.** 

### 18 **Thoughts? Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 19 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just one quick** 

### 20 **thought. Steve Rosenstock. Yes, after seeing** 

### 21 **the issue with fluorescent lamps and the rare** 

### 22 **earth material issue and supplies, you were**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 247**  **1 talking about blade materials and I think if**  

### 2 **there's -- and again, I don't know the** 

### 3 **technology specifically, but if there's some** 

### 4 **sort of technology that totally relies on rare** 

### 5 **earth materials for improved efficiency, I** 

### 6 **think at some point in the preliminary** 

### 7 **analysis that you might -- you know, if** 

### 8 **there's availability issues that should be** 

### 9 **accounted for. And you maybe might want to** 

### 10 **screen that out just because of possibility of** 

### 11 **impact on the market.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: We're moving on.** 

### 13 **MS. IYAMA: So next I'll let Sam** 

### 14 **present the engineering analysis.** 

### 15 **MR. JASINSKI: Thanks, Sanaee. My** 

### 16 **name is Sam Jasinski from Navigant Consulting.** 

### 17 **Today, I'll be discussing the methodologies** 

### 18 **that the Department of Energy uses to conduct** 

### 19 **the engineering analysis.** 

### 20 **The purpose of the engineering** 

### 21 **analysis is to characterize the relationship** 

### 22 **between manufacturer's selling price and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 248**  **1 improvements in energy efficiency. So the**  

### 2 **outcome will be cost efficiency curves for** 

### 3 **each equipment class similar to the one that** 

### 4 **you see on the left. Just make a note that** 

### 5 **this is a stylized version. It's not based on** 

### 6 **any data. This is just to show what the** 

### 7 **expected trend would look like. And these** 

### 8 **cost efficiency curves are then used in** 

### 9 **downstream analyses like the LCC and payback** 

### 10 **period analysis, manufacturer impact analysis** 

### 11 **and employment impact analysis.** 

### 12 **As we've discussed earlier today,** 

### 13 **DOE recognizes that the equipment classes** 

### 14 **identified by DOE cover a large range of fan** 

### 15 **designs and even within certain fan types, a** 

### 16 **large range of fan sizes. So to address this,** 

### 17 **DOE may consider focusing its analysis on a** 

### 18 **subset of representative equipment classes, so** 

### 19 **maybe a subset of the total equipment classes** 

### 20 **and then even within it a representative** 

### 21 **equipment class, representative units within** 

### 22 **that class.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 249**  **1 In the essence of time, I won't**  

### 2 **read these directly and I think 7-1 there** 

### 3 **provides some spoilers for some upcoming** 

### 4 **material that I'll go through. It essentially** 

### 5 **lays out the methodology that DOE uses for the** 

### 6 **engineering analysis and there will be an** 

### 7 **opportunity to comment on those specifics** 

### 8 **probably a little bit later.** 

### 9 **I think the important one here is** 

### 10 **asking manufacturers to provide comment or** 

### 11 **other interested parties on the methods that** 

### 12 **are used to improve the efficiency of fans** 

### 13 **currently. I think this is very much related** 

### 14 **to the technology option discussion that we** 

### 15 **had. So I don't know if anybody has anything** 

### 16 **additional to add to that.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments?** 

### 18 **Yes, Mark.** 

### 19 **MR. BUBLITZ: This is Mark Bublitz** 

### 20 **from New York Blower Company representing** 

### 21 **AMCA. It's a complicated issue and I think we** 

### 22 **agree to submit written comments in that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 250**  **1 regard. Your broad categories are sufficient**  

### 2 **enough, but we prefer the written approach.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, yes, Dan.** 

### 4 **MR. HARTLEIN: I know you talked** 

### 5 **about 7-1 being clear as we go here, but I do** 

### 6 **want to add a thought that within those** 

### 7 **equipment classes, we see the fan industry as** 

### 8 **a pretty mature industry. And the expectation** 

### 9 **within those classes of finding huge leaps** 

### 10 **forward in efficiency, I think they're not** 

### 11 **there.** 

### 12 **I want to reiterate again the** 

### 13 **comment we made earlier that probably the** 

### 14 **greatest gain is in proper selection and** 

### 15 **application.** 

### 16 **MR. JASINSKI: Thank you. Some of** 

### 17 **the data sources --** 

### 18 **MR. STEVENS: Excuse me. This is** 

### 19 **Mark from AMCA. 7-3, we did have a comment** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Please, Mark.** 

### 21 **MR. STEVENS: The question was on** 

### 22 **scaling, of course. I'm sure you're familiar**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 251**  **1 by now with the fan laws and that's used**  

### 2 **pretty widely throughout the industry. You're** 

### 3 **also familiar with the AMCA Certified Ratings** 

### 4 **Program, I'm sure. As I mentioned earlier the** 

### 5 **fan laws are used, are allowed to be used** 

### 6 **within the Certified Ratings Program, but** 

### 7 **licensees or participants may only rate** 

### 8 **upward, if the fans are geometrically** 

### 9 **proportional. So we assume that's what you** 

### 10 **meant by scaling.** 

### 11 **The second thing was is that it's** 

### 12 **very difficult, impossible, to scale wire to** 

### 13 **gas, so we just wanted to have you keep that** 

### 14 **in mind.** 

### 15 **MR. JASINSKI: Yes, I was going to** 

### 16 **touch on this later. There's a slide about** 

### 17 **picking the units and scaling. I actually had** 

### 18 **the chance to sit on the SPC 210 meeting where** 

### 19 **they were discussing this issue about how the** 

### 20 **fan efficiency laws don't necessarily apply** 

### 21 **when you're considering a scope that includes** 

### 22 **motor or VFD or VSD efficiency as well. So if**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 252**  **1 there's been any progress on characterizing**  

### 2 **how those things impact the scaling methods** 

### 3 **that are currently used, that would be very** 

### 4 **helpful for DOE if you could provide that in** 

### 5 **written comments.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks.** 

### 7 **MR. JASINSKI: So some of the data** 

### 8 **sources that DOE will use for the engineering** 

### 9 **analysis, any publicly-available data from** 

### 10 **manufacturer websites or equipment literature** 

### 11 **such as catalogs will be included. Some** 

### 12 **additional data sources we'll get into later** 

### 13 **when we start to interview manufacturers under** 

### 14 **nondisclosure agreements and things of that** 

### 15 **nature. So at this time, if there is any data** 

### 16 **that anyone would like to provide --** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: AMCA said that they** 

### 18 **would come forward with data and you have the** 

### 19 **interviews following that.** 

### 20 **MR. JASINSKI: Great. This graphic** 

### 21 **gives a better idea of the process that DOE** 

### 22 **goes through to develop the cost efficiency**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 253**  **1 curves that I mentioned earlier. To begin**  

### 2 **with, DOE defines baseline models and the** 

### 3 **baseline basically determines the** 

### 4 **characteristics of common or typical models** 

### 5 **that serve as reference points to assess the** 

### 6 **changes due to energy conversation standards,** 

### 7 **so implementation of technology options or any** 

### 8 **technology or design change that might improve** 

### 9 **efficiency.** 

### 10 **Next DOE does reverse engineering** 

### 11 **and there's sort of a two-pronged approach** 

### 12 **here on the evaluation of performance or** 

### 13 **efficiency side, DOE will gather test data** 

### 14 **available or existing test data or conduct** 

### 15 **tests to verify efficiency ratings. And then** 

### 16 **on the cost side, DOE will perform tear-downs** 

### 17 **and use the inputs from the teardowns into a** 

### 18 **cost model to generate estimated manufacturer** 

### 19 **production costs and then manufacturer selling** 

### 20 **price at these efficiency levels.** 

### 21 **In addition to the reverse** 

### 22 **engineering, as I mentioned earlier, there is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 254**  **1 extensive data collection and interview**  

### 2 **process where DOE will interview manufacturers** 

### 3 **and collect manufacturer data on costs and** 

### 4 **efficiency and those interviews will also help** 

### 5 **DOE understand those and later on I'll discuss** 

### 6 **how those interviews are also used to evaluate** 

### 7 **the impact on manufacturers of potential** 

### 8 **standards.** 

### 9 **And finally, developing the curves,** 

### 10 **DOE uses those inputs to create those cost** 

### 11 **curves that characterize manufacturer selling** 

### 12 **price as a function of efficiency.** 

### 13 **This graphic gets a little bit more** 

### 14 **detailed about the reverse engineering** 

### 15 **process. First DOE selects units and this** 

### 16 **goes back to talking about selecting** 

### 17 **representative units. Typically, the criteria** 

### 18 **that DOE will use are to try to get a good** 

### 19 **subset of the currently available market. It** 

### 20 **will focus on equipment classes that have a** 

### 21 **large number of shipments. Within each** 

### 22 **equipment class, DOE will target**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 255**  **1 manufacturers, many manufacturers, often**  

### 2 **focusing on those that have large market** 

### 3 **shares and even within a certain fan type or** 

### 4 **model, try to get a series, a full series of** 

### 5 **models to assess the different design options** 

### 6 **or technologies that might impact. And also** 

### 7 **size in this particular case will come into** 

### 8 **play.** 

### 9 **So then once DOE selects the units,** 

### 10 **then we'll conduct the physical teardowns in** 

### 11 **which DOE actually takes apart each piece of** 

### 12 **equipment and enters into a bill of materials,** 

### 13 **information such as the material type, the** 

### 14 **number, weight, size. And typically materials** 

### 15 **can be categorized into two different** 

### 16 **categories: fabricated parts, which are parts** 

### 17 **that are made in-house by the fan** 

### 18 **manufacturer, and then those that are** 

### 19 **purchased parts that are supplied. And those** 

### 20 **are treated somewhat differently. And then** 

### 21 **each of those DOE inputs what the expected** 

### 22 **assembly process for each of those is and then**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 256**  **1 ultimately that bill of materials is entered**  

### 2 **into the manufacturer cost model and it uses** 

### 3 **that input to estimate manufacturer production** 

### 4 **costs.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rob.** 

### 6 **MR. BOTELER: When you look at --** 

### 7 **Rob Boteler -- when you look at the selection** 

### 8 **of units, are you thinking that you would do a** 

### 9 **teardown for each one of the equipment** 

### 10 **classes? I mean we suggested 10, possibly 12,** 

### 11 **equipment classes. That's a huge number. I** 

### 12 **mean with motors we did three units per** 

### 13 **equipment class I guess we would say.** 

### 14 **MR. JASINSKI: I think DOE would** 

### 15 **attempt to include at least one unit from each** 

### 16 **equipment class, especially if the different,** 

### 17 **the reasons for differentiating those product** 

### 18 **or equipment class, excuse me, are so heavily** 

### 19 **related to performance.** 

### 20 **Some of the discussions we had are** 

### 21 **that they're very heavily application based** 

### 22 **and those applications dictate performance.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 257**  **1 So unless the piece of equipment is very**  

### 2 **similar or there are cases where DOE will do** 

### 3 **what's called a virtual teardown, if there are** 

### 4 **enough similarities between two, and DOE can** 

### 5 **gather enough information about what those** 

### 6 **differences are and adequately estimate the** 

### 7 **materials, assembly process cost, then it will** 

### 8 **use maybe a full teardown from one equipment** 

### 9 **class and then conduct a virtual teardown** 

### 10 **based on public information for an additional** 

### 11 **equipment class. But in general, yes, DOE** 

### 12 **would attempt to tear down, at least one from** 

### 13 **each equipment class.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Michael.** 

### 15 **MR. IVANOVICH: Quick question, if** 

### 16 **DOE were to receive the extended product** 

### 17 **approach, would you be tearing down the VFDs** 

### 18 **in the motors as well?** 

### 19 **MR. JASINSKI: The VFDs in the** 

### 20 **motors would be included in the cost model,** 

### 21 **but most likely as a purchased part because as** 

### 22 **you're saying they're not manufactured or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 258**  **1 fabricated by the fan manufacturer.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Is it Greg?** 

### 3 **MR. WAGNER: Yes, Greg Wagner.** 

### 4 **Within each product category, there's a wide** 

### 5 **range. We just earlier talked about input** 

### 6 **power from I believe it was 125 to 500,000** 

### 7 **watts. I saw a price on there of somewhere in** 

### 8 **the neighborhood of $50,000 or something for a** 

### 9 **fan. We don't have anything that sells for** 

### 10 **let's say one thousandth of that. How do you** 

### 11 **do a teardown in one category, one product to** 

### 12 **cover that span, if you will, and have** 

### 13 **anything that's meaningful?** 

### 14 **MR. JASINSKI: That's a good** 

### 15 **question and it's one that I'm going to ask** 

### 16 **you in about two slides.** 

### 17 **(Laughter.)** 

### 18 **But like I said, one approach when** 

### 19 **dealing with a broad scope like this that** 

### 20 **includes a lot of different fan types and** 

### 21 **sizes is to select representative units and** 

### 22 **then use scaling techniques to use the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 259**  **1 information from directly analyzed**  

### 2 **representative units to apply to larger sizes** 

### 3 **and even in some cases other types of** 

### 4 **equipment.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Dan, you want to** 

### 6 **comment here?** 

### 7 **MR. HARTLEIN: Just a comment on** 

### 8 **construction. You grab the smallest fan of** 

### 9 **one of these classes and the demands, the** 

### 10 **physical demands, the dynamic stresses are** 

### 11 **infinitely different than when you get to the** 

### 12 **larger size in the same class. So that** 

### 13 **scaling becomes really, really difficult to** 

### 14 **do.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rob.** 

### 16 **MR. BOTELER: Being experienced in** 

### 17 **the scaling community, this is probably one of** 

### 18 **the most scary things for manufacturers is the** 

### 19 **scaling for all the reasons that we've just** 

### 20 **heard. It's the area in my experience that is** 

### 21 **the only thing that ever got us to a lawsuit** 

### 22 **was the fact that we had issues with scaling**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 260**  **1 that weren't addressed by the Department.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, that's** 

### 3 **perspective. That's useful.** 

### 4 **MR. JASINSKI: If you could** 

### 5 **identify those pitfalls in the written** 

### 6 **comments so that we can try to do our best to** 

### 7 **avoid them, that would be very helpful.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: So do we have a** 

### 9 **comment box?** 

### 10 **MR. JASINSKI: Yes.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Summarize this for** 

### 12 **us.** 

### 13 **MR. JASINSKI: Okay, so this is** 

### 14 **essentially just asking for detailed data** 

### 15 **about performance and incremental costs of** 

### 16 **achieving higher efficiency. So you know,** 

### 17 **total incremental cost, incremental cost** 

### 18 **broken out into certain material costs, labor** 

### 19 **costs and so forth, any data is welcome and** 

### 20 **very much appreciated.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, welcome. Your** 

### 22 **name for the record.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 261**  **1 MR. DORIA: Yes, Jordan Doria with**  

### 2 **Ingersoll Rand. I'm here on behalf of our** 

### 3 **Trane business, heating and air conditioning.** 

### 4 **I'm not sure the most appropriate place to ask** 

### 5 **this question, but I think it's here as we're** 

### 6 **starting to get into the question of who bears** 

### 7 **the cost. It seems like there's three sort of** 

### 8 **broad categories. There's costs to the** 

### 9 **customer. There's costs to the manufacturer,** 

### 10 **the fan manufacturer. And then there's impact** 

### 11 **on energy costs.** 

### 12 **I think that's an appropriate** 

### 13 **methodology when we're talking about finished** 

### 14 **products that are being delivered to the end** 

### 15 **user, but here as we're often talking about** 

### 16 **essentially a component in certain** 

### 17 **applications, it seems like a missing element** 

### 18 **of analysis is what the impact on costs could** 

### 19 **be for those charged like in the heating and** 

### 20 **air conditioning industry, putting it in a** 

### 21 **certain application. And I can see getting** 

### 22 **into a chicken or the egg thing here, but**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 262**  **1 depending on what the efficiency standards**  

### 2 **could ultimately be, that could have a** 

### 3 **dramatic impact in terms of costs for redesign** 

### 4 **for manufacturers and others who are using** 

### 5 **them in applications.** 

### 6 **So my question really is at any** 

### 7 **point in this process, are you seeking to try** 

### 8 **and capture those -- call them downstream or** 

### 9 **sort of ripple-effect costs that others would** 

### 10 **bear?** 

### 11 **MR. JASINSKI: Sure. A lot of the** 

### 12 **issues that you talk about are picked up in** 

### 13 **some of the downstream analyses. For** 

### 14 **instance, we're going to get into making sure** 

### 15 **we know the distribution channels, the markups** 

### 16 **at each stage of that distribution channel and** 

### 17 **then ultimately the life-cycle cost assessment** 

### 18 **will account for those issues.** 

### 19 **MR. DORIA: Okay, thank you. Gary.** 

### 20 **MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom.** 

### 21 **When you do this analysis and assess the costs** 

### 22 **associated with materials, labor and so on, do**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 263**  **1 you use the near-term cost or the mature**  

### 2 **market cost, that is, how do you account for** 

### 3 **the potential reduction in the these costs** 

### 4 **over time as the production of products** 

### 5 **increases?** 

### 6 **MR. JASINSKI: Sure. DOE does not** 

### 7 **project future costs for things like -- for** 

### 8 **materials, for instance, DOE uses a five-year** 

### 9 **average using -- a five-year average for** 

### 10 **things like copper, steel, things like that** 

### 11 **from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.** 

### 13 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 14 **EEI. A follow up question. For commodity** 

### 15 **products like that, I can understand that** 

### 16 **costing methodology, but drives, for example,** 

### 17 **the cost may decrease as the demand for those** 

### 18 **products increases in the future. So** 

### 19 **do you make any allowance for that?** 

### 20 **MR. JASINSKI: No, in the** 

### 21 **engineering analysis we try to use current** 

### 22 **prices.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 264**  **1 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles Llenza**  

### 2 **for the Department. We like to use real** 

### 3 **numbers, so if you had contracts that showed** 

### 4 **that the cost was being driven down, contracts** 

### 5 **-- two, three-year out contracts like in the** 

### 6 **case of LED lighting for certain applications,** 

### 7 **we had information to that nature that the** 

### 8 **cost of that particular item was going down.** 

### 9 **We could use that. But we cannot use pure** 

### 10 **projections. In other words, we could not** 

### 11 **take five-year information and project out say** 

### 12 **if it was a curve that was slanting downward,** 

### 13 **we couldn't take the endpoints of that curve** 

### 14 **five years out. It's just not something we** 

### 15 **can do.** 

### 16 **MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.** 

### 18 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 19 **Yes, under the -- I'll say the extended** 

### 20 **regulatory regime where you're looking at the** 

### 21 **motors and the variable speed drives and any** 

### 22 **other controls that might be used, it also**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 265**  **1 comes down to a -- there's a lot of**  

### 2 **information you're trying to gather and I know** 

### 3 **you do a very good job doing it, but in terms** 

### 4 **of this effort, are you going to have the** 

### 5 **resources, not only interview the fan** 

### 6 **manufacturers to get some of that information,** 

### 7 **but also the motor manufacturers because their** 

### 8 **products' prices are also going to be** 

### 9 **influenced and the drive manufacturers and all** 

### 10 **the other controls that are out there that** 

### 11 **haven't even been discussed that could be part** 

### 12 **of these systems.** 

### 13 **You could be talking to let's say** 

### 14 **at least 20 fan manufacturers, 10 motor** 

### 15 **manufacturers, I don't know how many drive** 

### 16 **manufacturers and then all the other control** 

### 17 **manufacturers. But they all could be part of** 

### 18 **those system costs. Does -- are the resources** 

### 19 **there to do it?** 

### 20 **MR. JASINSKI: When scheduling** 

### 21 **interviews, DOE will prioritize the** 

### 22 **manufacturers that will be subject to the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 266**  **1 burden of the standard. However, there have**  

### 2 **been instances in past rulemakings where to a** 

### 3 **certain degree some component suppliers were** 

### 4 **also involved in the interview process.** 

### 5 **MR. LLENZA: Charles Llenza from** 

### 6 **the Department of Energy. We also have a** 

### 7 **database or experience in like the motor** 

### 8 **manufacturers and other components of this. I** 

### 9 **mean this has come up in other rulemakings, so** 

### 10 **we do have knowledge of the industry. And** 

### 11 **where we don't have knowledge I think we make** 

### 12 **the effort to go out there, make sure that** 

### 13 **we're covering hopefully a good population** 

### 14 **size of a particularly new technology if that** 

### 15 **arises.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's move on to** 

### 17 **manufacturer's selling price.** 

### 18 **MR. JASINSKI: So DOE will also** 

### 19 **develop estimates for manufacturer's selling** 

### 20 **price and this is essentially just applying a** 

### 21 **markup to account for nonproduction costs such** 

### 22 **as maintenance, depreciation, SG&A, R&D in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 267**  **1 some cases and DOE intends to estimate the**  

### 2 **manufacturer markups based on publicly** 

### 3 **available financial information such as SEC** 

### 4 **10Ks and so forth. So I think at this point** 

### 5 **DOE would like comments on that methodology or** 

### 6 **any data information about what that potential** 

### 7 **markup should be.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Any comments at this** 

### 9 **point on this method? No? No comments.** 

### 10 **Okay. Michael?** 

### 11 **MR. IVANOVICH: We're going to** 

### 12 **respond to these things when we can, but we** 

### 13 **just can't give out pricing information just** 

### 14 **yet.** 

### 15 **MR. JASINSKI: Sure, that's** 

### 16 **something that is probably more appropriate** 

### 17 **during the manufacturer interviews and when** 

### 18 **NDA is in place. DOE recognizes that so we** 

### 19 **appreciate that.** 

### 20 **Next, DOE typically does not** 

### 21 **include conversion costs in the engineering** 

### 22 **analysis. Usually, this is something that's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 268**  **1 evaluated for the manufacturer impact**  

### 2 **analysis, but the conversion cost just quickly** 

### 3 **includes investments that might be required to** 

### 4 **build production facilities for higher** 

### 5 **efficiency designs and so forth. This is** 

### 6 **something that gets more into the manufacturer** 

### 7 **impact analysis which we'll touch on later.** 

### 8 **And just like anything else, this** 

### 9 **is one of those cost categories where DOE** 

### 10 **would typically request data which is usually** 

### 11 **provided under NDA when we do manufacturer** 

### 12 **interviews.** 

### 13 **So I think we've already talked** 

### 14 **about this a lot in terms of DOE's potential** 

### 15 **approach to select representative units and** 

### 16 **then scale results. As I mentioned earlier,** 

### 17 **within each representative equipment class DOE** 

### 18 **would select representative fan units in size** 

### 19 **ranges and specific speed values that have a** 

### 20 **large number of models. But DOE would plan to** 

### 21 **evaluate fans across the range of sizes for at** 

### 22 **least one fan series or more to determine a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 269**  **1 size efficiency relationship and then use that**  

### 2 **relationship to scale its results for** 

### 3 **representative units to smaller or larger** 

### 4 **units.** 

### 5 **And we've already touched on these.** 

### 6 **DOE is essentially asking for feedback and** 

### 7 **guidance on how to do that appropriately.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark.** 

### 9 **MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New** 

### 10 **York Blower Company representing AMCA. We** 

### 11 **just encourage DOE, a significant portion of** 

### 12 **the fan products are not manufactured to** 

### 13 **inventory. So the term "readily available" is** 

### 14 **repeated in the framework often. A good chunk** 

### 15 **of the market, you just can't go find it in a** 

### 16 **warehouse. It's manufactured to order. So** 

### 17 **we've encouraged you to sample, get an** 

### 18 **appropriate sampling technology.** 

### 19 **MR. JASINSKI: Thank you. As I** 

### 20 **mentioned earlier, the first step is to** 

### 21 **identify baseline models. Typically, DOE** 

### 22 **selects baseline models -- a baseline model**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 270**  **1 for DOE would be one that just meets the**  

### 2 **previous standard. In this case, there aren't** 

### 3 **any current standards so DOE would select** 

### 4 **baseline models that are typical of the least** 

### 5 **efficient models that have a large number of** 

### 6 **shipments. DOE requests comment on that** 

### 7 **approach.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Michael.** 

### 9 **MR. IVANOVICH: With respect to an** 

### 10 **extended product approach on that, how would** 

### 11 **you begin to develop a package? How would you** 

### 12 **select a VFD or a motor to go with a fan?** 

### 13 **MR. JASINSKI: Well, I think it** 

### 14 **would be slightly different from the different** 

### 15 **regimes that we identified. I think under** 

### 16 **regime number 2, if I'm not mistaken, where** 

### 17 **the classes are divided by whether or not** 

### 18 **there is a VSD, essentially it would be** 

### 19 **similar. I don't believe that there are** 

### 20 **current efficiency standards for VFDs or VSDs,** 

### 21 **so it would be a similar approach, select the** 

### 22 **least efficient.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 271**  **1 Under regime number 3 -- where VFDs**  

### 2 **or VSDs are essentially treated as a design** 

### 3 **option. In those cases the VSD, if they are** 

### 4 **proved to be much more efficient, they** 

### 5 **probably would not be included in the** 

### 6 **baseline. So the baseline would be a piece of** 

### 7 **equipment that does not use a VSD or a VFD.** 

### 8 **MR. IVANOVICH: I think part of the** 

### 9 **concern or the inquiry is that whether the** 

### 10 **standards use a very wide variety in** 

### 11 **performance, you know, of those types of** 

### 12 **equipment and how do we match them up. We'd** 

### 13 **be interested in hearing more about that.** 

### 14 **MR. JASINSKI: Sure.** 

### 15 **MR. LLENZA: We're trying not to** 

### 16 **necessarily narrow down the options of the** 

### 17 **manufacturers and the customers. So in doing** 

### 18 **these rulemakings, when we start defining** 

### 19 **categories of equipment or groupings, classes,** 

### 20 **what we call classes, we try not to make it** 

### 21 **such that it's narrowed down to one specific** 

### 22 **technology or one piece of equipment. We**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 272**  **1 rather broaden it where we can. In the case**  

### 2 **of the VSD and the VFD, we would probably more** 

### 3 **talk about controls and then within that box** 

### 4 **of controls, we would give you options of** 

### 5 **choices of things that the manufacturers or** 

### 6 **the people that are ordering the equipment** 

### 7 **could do to achieve the same level of** 

### 8 **efficiency when you use those combinations.** 

### 9 **So this is an abstract, what we're** 

### 10 **trying to do. It may not show on the surface,** 

### 11 **but what we try not to give you -- we don't** 

### 12 **try to tell you what equipment to use and how** 

### 13 **to match it up to achieve those efficiencies.** 

### 14 **We try to provide you as much flexibility as** 

### 15 **possible.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 17 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 18 **In terms of baselines, I think in terms of --** 

### 19 **especially for your modeling, that if --** 

### 20 **again, under the extended regime, if you're** 

### 21 **talking about the motors that are already** 

### 22 **covered DOE products that the efficiency**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 273**  **1 levels should be assumed to meet the 2010 or**  

### 2 **upcoming 2015 minimum efficiency standards** 

### 3 **that are separately regulated by DOE. I'll** 

### 4 **say for the covered motors.** 

### 5 **Also, I think in terms of your** 

### 6 **baseline that you should look at Chapter 6.4** 

### 7 **and 6.5 of ASHRAE 90.1, use the 2010 standard** 

### 8 **now or the 2013 standard which will be** 

### 9 **published by October of this year, I believe,** 

### 10 **which has significant energy conservation** 

### 11 **requirements for specific fans, i.e., VAV** 

### 12 **fans, if they're 10 horsepower or larger. In** 

### 13 **2010, they have to have some sort of control** 

### 14 **device to limit their usage of energy at part** 

### 15 **loads. 2013, we'll have more, I believe,** 

### 16 **more, obviously more requirements including** 

### 17 **fan efficiency grade. That should be** 

### 18 **considered part of the baseline and I think** 

### 19 **that's very important because especially after** 

### 20 **DOE does its determination, the states update** 

### 21 **their standards to 2013, those will be the new** 

### 22 **minimums throughout the land. Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 274**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Rob.**  

### 2 **MR. BOTELER: Just to comment, Rob** 

### 3 **Boteler, just to comment on Steve's point on** 

### 4 **motors. We have a rulemaking in process right** 

### 5 **now. We're moving to include all the definite** 

### 6 **and special purpose and other categories of** 

### 7 **motors which essentially anything we see here** 

### 8 **with fans would then have a covered product** 

### 9 **and it would be at the higher NEMA premium** 

### 10 **1212 level.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Michael? Okay.** 

### 12 **MR. JASINSKI: After establishing** 

### 13 **the baseline, DOE will then establish** 

### 14 **intermediate efficiency levels so within a** 

### 15 **given size selected for analysis, the fan** 

### 16 **models for which performance data is** 

### 17 **available, that performance data will be** 

### 18 **assessed to determine those intermediate** 

### 19 **levels of efficiency. So DOE requests comment** 

### 20 **on that approach.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Any comments here?** 

### 22 **Yes, Mark.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 275**  **1 MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New**  

### 2 **York Blower Company representing AMCA. Can** 

### 3 **you clarify, it just sounds a little circular,** 

### 4 **we're going to use --** 

### 5 **MR. JASINSKI: Sure. Essentially,** 

### 6 **that would be data availability is big here,** 

### 7 **whether there's published data in product** 

### 8 **literature, DOE can use that and identify** 

### 9 **efficiency levels of -- levels of efficiency** 

### 10 **at which there are models and compare that** 

### 11 **grouping of efficiency. It's basically** 

### 12 **assessing the span of efficiency available on** 

### 13 **the market compared to back to that baseline.** 

### 14 **So I'm hearing things like these** 

### 15 **other standards that -- or building codes that** 

### 16 **might drive efficiency. There might be an** 

### 17 **efficiency level where a lot of fans are** 

### 18 **meeting a certain level from maybe ASHRAE 90.1** 

### 19 **that are above the baseline that we identify** 

### 20 **and that would be an efficiency level. Or the** 

### 21 **FEGs, for example. You see FEG 55, 65, 85.** 

### 22 **It would be similar, do something similar**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 276**  **1 based on whatever efficiency metric that DOE**  

### 2 **decides to use with its test procedure. It** 

### 3 **would just essentially be identifying those** 

### 4 **levels using that efficiency metric.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 6 **MR. BUBLITZ: How else would you do** 

### 7 **it?** 

### 8 **(Laughter.)** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 10 **MR. JASINSKI: And I essentially** 

### 11 **explained this in my answer. So DOE requests** 

### 12 **comments on what the available range of** 

### 13 **efficiency is. And if they don't, whether or** 

### 14 **not manufacturers offer fans that have varying** 

### 15 **efficiencies at different duty cycles or** 

### 16 **utility.** 

### 17 **MR. LLENZA: This is Charles** 

### 18 **Llenza, Department of Energy also. And you** 

### 19 **know, if we know of any ENERGY STAR** 

### 20 **requirements for fans, this is a good time to** 

### 21 **bring it in to make us aware of that, too.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have any**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 277**  **1 comments here?**  

### 2 **MR. JASINSKI: I think we had one** 

### 3 **here.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, I'm sorry.** 

### 5 **Tim.** 

### 6 **MR. KUSKI: Tim with AMCA. I'm** 

### 7 **still struggling with what is meant by** 

### 8 **Question 7-14.** 

### 9 **MR. JASINSKI: An answer might be** 

### 10 **that within one of the proposed equipment** 

### 11 **classes that you identified, you can say that** 

### 12 **there are fans that have range in FEG from 55** 

### 13 **to 85 or what typical -- the typical span of** 

### 14 **efficiency might be within a given equipment** 

### 15 **class.** 

### 16 **MR. KUSKI: Our fan performance is** 

### 17 **already publicly available and has third party** 

### 18 **endorsement by AMCA. I'm confused. I think** 

### 19 **that information is already there that you can** 

### 20 **get at. Am I missing something?** 

### 21 **MR. LLENZA: This is Charles Llenza** 

### 22 **from the Department. Just make sure you point**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 278**  **1 at it so that we don't miss it.**  

### 2 **(Laughter.)** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.** 

### 4 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 5 **Again, under one of the potential regulatory** 

### 6 **regimes where you're looking at other** 

### 7 **controls, variable speed drives, step** 

### 8 **controls, etcetera, I'm just thinking about** 

### 9 **other controls for other technologies. I'm** 

### 10 **not personally and if there is something out** 

### 11 **there, forgive me, I'm not familiar with an** 

### 12 **efficiency metric for variable speed drive,** 

### 13 **the drive itself. So I don't know how you say** 

### 14 **quote varying levels of efficiency for -- or** 

### 15 **any other control when it's really the focus** 

### 16 **is the energy saved by the product that it's** 

### 17 **controlling. But they will use energy. I** 

### 18 **mean there's energy used by the drives and** 

### 19 **other controls and that will vary by the type** 

### 20 **of control, but I don't know of specific** 

### 21 **efficiency metrics that can be I'll say added** 

### 22 **on to or included in with this.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 279**  **1 MR. JASINSKI: Right. Under that**  

### 2 **regime, the ultimate goal for DOE would be to** 

### 3 **assess the range of efficiency of the fan** 

### 4 **still, not necessarily to VFD. If that** 

### 5 **information is available for the VFD and that** 

### 6 **enables DOE to then estimate the efficiency** 

### 7 **range of the fans, then it would be useful.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charles.** 

### 9 **MR. LLENZA: Yes, I just want to** 

### 10 **refocus as you stated. We're not really after** 

### 11 **VSD or VFD efficiency. We're really after fan** 

### 12 **efficiency. So the metric for efficiency** 

### 13 **levels of the components is not really the** 

### 14 **question. It's really as the system, right?** 

### 15 **The system approach to those.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Question or comment** 

### 17 **here, please.** 

### 18 **MR. SMITH: Yes, Wade Smith with** 

### 19 **AMCA. So AMCA runs a 40,000 square foot** 

### 20 **laboratory. It's accredited and we do third** 

### 21 **party certification of ratings. And all of** 

### 22 **our member companies who certify the ratings**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 280**  **1 of their products publish those ratings in**  

### 2 **such a way that the fan efficiency grade, the** 

### 3 **efficiency at all operating points is in the** 

### 4 **public domain and it's correct.** 

### 5 **One of the troubling aspects of the** 

### 6 **idea of an extended product ruling is that the** 

### 7 **performance of motors at part load and heavy** 

### 8 **motor applied to a large fan operates at part** 

### 9 **load when the fan is at full load, so we don't** 

### 10 **know what the motor performance is at part** 

### 11 **load. We don't know what the variable speed** 

### 12 **drive performance is at full or part load.** 

### 13 **And so you know, what happened in Europe with** 

### 14 **12759 is that they fell back upon an** 

### 15 **assumption about those losses associated with** 

### 16 **those components.** 

### 17 **And so it's quite possible to** 

### 18 **calculate the efficiency of an assembly of** 

### 19 **these three components based on an estimate of** 

### 20 **the drive and motor losses, but then what you** 

### 21 **have at the end of the day is an estimate of** 

### 22 **the performance of the package. So in our**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 281**  **1 world, we don't deal with estimates. We deal**  

### 2 **with precision. And in the regulatory world,** 

### 3 **generally, a published performance level is** 

### 4 **expected to be achieved. And the test on that** 

### 5 **ultimately is to take the assembled, in this** 

### 6 **case, extended product and test it to see if** 

### 7 **the representation of performance is, in fact,** 

### 8 **correct.** 

### 9 **But we don't have a correct** 

### 10 **representation of the performance at any** 

### 11 **operating point and that's the discomfort** 

### 12 **associated with all this. And then when we** 

### 13 **talk about well, we want to break down the** 

### 14 **product, but we don't need to break down the** 

### 15 **drive. It feels foreign to our member** 

### 16 **companies to be placed in a regulatory chain** 

### 17 **of command, to ask us to embrace products** 

### 18 **which we didn't design, we don't manufacture,** 

### 19 **we don't understand, and for the most part** 

### 20 **don't sell.** 

### 21 **That said, they save a lot of** 

### 22 **energy or have that potential. Let's say it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 282**  **1 that way. They have that potential to save a**  

### 2 **lot of energy, but the standards aren't** 

### 3 **written. We heard a moment ago about changes** 

### 4 **that are happening in variable speed drives to** 

### 5 **deal with some of the issues that have** 

### 6 **happened in the early ones of motors which** 

### 7 **were authorized for use with variable speed** 

### 8 **drive six years ago, but today are not** 

### 9 **authorized for use because problems have** 

### 10 **arisen that we didn't know about previously.** 

### 11 **This is a very, very young emerging and very** 

### 12 **exciting aspect of our industry, but it's a** 

### 13 **little young -- it's so different than a** 

### 14 **mature fan industry where you can tear apart** 

### 15 **and you can deal with and you can find that** 

### 16 **last two or three percent and we're ready for** 

### 17 **that.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.** 

### 19 **MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom. I** 

### 20 **totally understand that point of view, but** 

### 21 **being new to this discussion, I'd like to ask** 

### 22 **doesn't anybody make an integrated air**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 283**  **1 handling device that consists of a fan, a**  

### 2 **motor, and a drive that might be used in a** 

### 3 **commercial HVAC system?** 

### 4 **MR. JASINSKI: Yes.** 

### 5 **MR. FERNSTROM: Somebody does make** 

### 6 **that product. Okay, so let me follow on and** 

### 7 **say why should it not be possible to measure** 

### 8 **the air out and the electricity in in which** 

### 9 **case you would capture the whole efficiency of** 

### 10 **this product at whatever operating points you** 

### 11 **wanted to measure it at. That doesn't seem** 

### 12 **like such an impossible task to me.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Your name, please?** 

### 14 **MR. HAUER: My name is Armin Hauer** 

### 15 **of ebm-papst. Yes, this type of air mover** 

### 16 **exists. It's available like an ECM type of** 

### 17 **series of products. It's available as** 

### 18 **complete air mover. It's available in** 

### 19 **American market today up to 6kW electrical** 

### 20 **input. And developments are going to 12kW** 

### 21 **electrical input. These products indeed can** 

### 22 **only be measured wire to air because they're**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 284**  **1 completely inseparable. So you cannot**  

### 2 **separate the variable speed drive from the** 

### 3 **motor and not from the fan.** 

### 4 **So these products they have truly** 

### 5 **wire to air ratio and there is no ambiguity** 

### 6 **about influences that can happen in the field** 

### 7 **if maybe an electrical filter is applied or** 

### 8 **not applied or if the variable speed drive** 

### 9 **settings are changed. If you change the PWM** 

### 10 **frequency or something like you can do with a** 

### 11 **standard drive, then you can change the** 

### 12 **efficiency of the system, but these completely** 

### 13 **integrated air movers would not have that** 

### 14 **ambiguity. Thank you.** 

### 15 **MR. FERNSTROM: So Gary Fernstrom** 

### 16 **again. I totally understand the issues you** 

### 17 **guys are raising with respect to large** 

### 18 **equipment, where you couple a fan of some kind** 

### 19 **and a motor and maybe a belt drive and** 

### 20 **somebody puts a VSD on it and you don't make** 

### 21 **it and it's not integrated. But when we talk** 

### 22 **about this extended product category thing,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 285**  **1 I'm talking about the smaller product that is**  

### 2 **sold as a package and can be measured and** 

### 3 **there ought not to be a big concern about** 

### 4 **this.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Dan.** 

### 6 **MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein,** 

### 7 **speaking on behalf of AMCA. Let's not forget** 

### 8 **that we started the discussion with a product** 

### 9 **range to begin at five horsepower. And as our** 

### 10 **colleague from ebm-papst just represented,** 

### 11 **he's at five kilowatts for his product range** 

### 12 **at this point in time or maybe you said six,** 

### 13 **I'm sorry.** 

### 14 **MR. FERNSTROM: But that's an upper** 

### 15 **limit though, but go ahead.** 

### 16 **MR. HARTLEIN: No, that's the lower** 

### 17 **limit and he's at six kilowatts with his** 

### 18 **product range at the top. So there's a very,** 

### 19 **very small amount of his product that would** 

### 20 **even fall into the definition of this** 

### 21 **discussion as to where we are today.** 

### 22 **MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, so we opened**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 286**  **1 by saying we want a broader range than you do.**  

### 2 **We want to go with what DOE's original** 

### 3 **proposal was which includes a lot of this** 

### 4 **smaller equipment that you all said was made** 

### 5 **by small manufacturers and would represent a** 

### 6 **significant burden on them to include this** 

### 7 **product. And Andrew said we ought to take a** 

### 8 **look at that. We ought to see how much of the** 

### 9 **market energy use that comprises and whether** 

### 10 **or not it makes sense to regulate that.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, final comments** 

### 12 **on these comment boxes on 76. I'm not sure** 

### 13 **we've touched on these, really. Maybe we** 

### 14 **have.** 

### 15 **MR. ROY: Doug, I have a comment.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please.** 

### 17 **MR. ROY: My name is Aniruddh Roy.** 

### 18 **I just wanted to comment on Steve Rosenstock's** 

### 19 **and Wade Smith's comments. There is an** 

### 20 **existing standard, AHRI 1210. It's a** 

### 21 **performance standard for variable frequency** 

### 22 **drives. And there's a rating metric in that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 287**  **1 standard drive system efficiency which is out**  

### 2 **there.** 

### 3 **We don't have a position on the** 

### 4 **regulatory regime yet, but if DOE were to go** 

### 5 **in the direction of fans inclusive of the** 

### 6 **motor and VSDs, I guess AMCA 210 and the** 

### 7 **standard come to mind in terms of the** 

### 8 **consideration.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Louis.** 

### 10 **MR. STARR: So I may have a** 

### 11 **solution for some of the problems that we're** 

### 12 **talking about. One thing, since the motors** 

### 13 **are not clearly understood of how they perform** 

### 14 **other than just full load performance in VFDs** 

### 15 **as well, perhaps a factor could be entered for** 

### 16 **those items that are applied equivalently** 

### 17 **across the fans. And so really all then you** 

### 18 **would be tested on is your fan application.** 

### 19 **The rest could be calculated. If that could** 

### 20 **be put in the context of the regimen of the** 

### 21 **federal standards, then there wouldn't be a** 

### 22 **problem. But I'm not sure that that can**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 288**  **1 happen. If it can happen, then that would be**  

### 2 **a solution.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's finish** 

### 4 **with the engineering analysis.** 

### 5 **MR. JASINSKI: Sure.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: And then we're going** 

### 7 **to head to break here shortly.** 

### 8 **MR. JASINSKI: So ultimately the** 

### 9 **intermediate efficiency levels end at what DOE** 

### 10 **calls the maximum technology and DOE is** 

### 11 **required to analyze the maximum** 

### 12 **technologically feasible efficiency levels.** 

### 13 **So DOE will seek interested party input on the** 

### 14 **appropriate max. tech. levels. This is** 

### 15 **essentially asking what is the highest** 

### 16 **achievable efficiency for fans in each of** 

### 17 **these equipment classes.** 

### 18 **MR. STEVENS: Doug, I just have got** 

### 19 **to return to the last comment. I apologize.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Sure.** 

### 21 **MR. STEVENS: I wanted to reiterate** 

### 22 **that AMCA has a task force, an international**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 289**  **1 task force that's working on the very things**  

### 2 **we were talking about last and that they're** 

### 3 **looking at an FEG metric, a measure wire to** 

### 4 **gas metric for the type of fans that Armin was** 

### 5 **discussing. And then for other products where** 

### 6 **the permutations are very complex and there's** 

### 7 **too many, that it's going to be an FEG metric** 

### 8 **with estimates for losses to motors, drives,** 

### 9 **et cetera added on top of that. I just wanted** 

### 10 **to reiterate that. We understand that** 

### 11 **complexity and we're working on it.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Where are you in the** 

### 13 **progression of that work?** 

### 14 **MR. STEVENS: That's a good** 

### 15 **question. The FEGs are complete. The wire to** 

### 16 **gas testing is for the most part done.** 

### 17 **There's some tweaks to AMCA 210 that have to** 

### 18 **be made to close a gap, but that's not very** 

### 19 **difficult to do so that's an ASHRAE process.** 

### 20 **So we're a bit of a slave to that timing.** 

### 21 **The third one, the measured part,** 

### 22 **we've had two meetings already. The way**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 290**  **1 forward, the proposed way forward has been**  

### 2 **agreed upon by the task force. They've been** 

### 3 **tasked by the AMCA Board of Directors to** 

### 4 **finish by May of this year. I think that's** 

### 5 **pretty aggressive, but we think it ought to be** 

### 6 **done this calendar year.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good.** 

### 8 **MR. JASINSKI: Any comments on the** 

### 9 **maximum technology level?** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Dan.** 

### 11 **MR. HARTLEIN: Just to reiterate a** 

### 12 **comment, Dan Hartlein, Twin City Fan and AMCA.** 

### 13 **To reiterate a comment I made earlier that the** 

### 14 **industry is pretty mature and we've been** 

### 15 **working towards efficient designs for years.** 

### 16 **My colleague, Mr. Srejovic, talked about the** 

### 17 **evolution of the plenum fan earlier and how** 

### 18 **that actually led to a more efficient solution** 

### 19 **for the user of the product, so I think we're** 

### 20 **close there. And again, the concept of** 

### 21 **getting the right fan size selected for the** 

### 22 **right application is where we believe the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 291**  **1 largest pickups are.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Then let's** 

### 3 **move on to outside regulatory changes.** 

### 4 **MR. JASINSKI: So DOE will also** 

### 5 **consider outside regulatory changes in its** 

### 6 **analysis. This is essentially saying that DOE** 

### 7 **will consider the effects of other DOE energy** 

### 8 **conservation standards and any regulatory** 

### 9 **changes outside of DOE's rulemaking process** 

### 10 **that might impact manufacturers of this** 

### 11 **equipment.** 

### 12 **We also -- DOE also understands** 

### 13 **that some regulatory changes can affect the** 

### 14 **efficiency or energy consumption of fans** 

### 15 **covered under this rulemaking so it will** 

### 16 **account for that. And DOE will attempt to** 

### 17 **identify any outside engineering issues that** 

### 18 **might impact its analysis for the engineering** 

### 19 **analysis.** 

### 20 **MR. LLENZA: This is Charles** 

### 21 **Llenza. That includes ASHRAE.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: So outside**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 292**  **1 regulatory changes that you anticipate? Dan.**  

### 2 **MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein. Twin** 

### 3 **City Fan and AMCA. I have a short story to** 

### 4 **tell and I think it kind of demonstrates where** 

### 5 **there might be some issues here. This is a** 

### 6 **very recent story. It happened in the last** 

### 7 **two weeks. We have a customer who is** 

### 8 **operating a paper mill. He has a fan which is** 

### 9 **operating within the range that we're** 

### 10 **considering here, under the 500 kilowatt** 

### 11 **range. We have a proposed solution to this** 

### 12 **customer to cut the consumed power in half,** 

### 13 **literally a little more than that in doing a** 

### 14 **retrofit. That retrofit has been stopped** 

### 15 **because of the potential or the interpretation** 

### 16 **by the customer in their environmental side** 

### 17 **that this could trigger new source standards** 

### 18 **for the boiler that this fan is operating on.** 

### 19 **I have now seen this twice.** 

### 20 **Another one is a quarter of a million dollar** 

### 21 **retrofit that's sitting in a South Carolina** 

### 22 **power plant basement, has never been installed**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 293**  **1 for the exact same reason.**  

### 2 **So I think there may be some** 

### 3 **crossover between the Department of Energy** 

### 4 **initiatives here and the EPA as it relates to** 

### 5 **unleashing the potential for energy savings in** 

### 6 **this area.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Rob.** 

### 8 **MR. BOTELER: I was just going to** 

### 9 **make the comment one more time that we have a** 

### 10 **motor rule that's in process that will expand** 

### 11 **the scope of the product to cover pretty much** 

### 12 **everything that we're talking about with fans.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, yes, Mike.** 

### 14 **MR. IVANOVICH: Mike Inanovich,** 

### 15 **AMCA. I didn't know exactly when to pop this** 

### 16 **slide up, but is it possible I can bring up** 

### 17 **this slide? Would you mind?** 

### 18 **MR. JASINSKI: No.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Why don't we do it** 

### 20 **after the break.** 

### 21 **MR. IVANOVICH: Okay.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: You haven't loaded**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 294**  **1 the slide yet, have you? Have you loaded it?**  

### 2 **Okay, do it now. Pop it up. I thought you** 

### 3 **had to load it.** 

### 4 **(Pause.)** 

### 5 **MR. IVANOVICH: There it is. So** 

### 6 **this is a slide that we keep up to date. This** 

### 7 **is a timeline of efficiency metrics moving** 

### 8 **forward through codes and standards from 2012** 

### 9 **to 2018, roughly. Right now, we're in that** 

### 10 **2013 time frame where the 90.1 2013 version** 

### 11 **has already been approved. It's going to be** 

### 12 **published this year.** 

### 13 **We've submitted in January 2013 a** 

### 14 **code change proposal to the -- which would be** 

### 15 **for the 2015 International Energy Conservation** 

### 16 **Code. We're preparing a continuous** 

### 17 **maintenance proposal for 189.1 which would be** 

### 18 **submitted in 2013 towards the 2014 publication** 

### 19 **of 189.1. We're working with IAPMO on their** 

### 20 **green supplement which will have a language in** 

### 21 **it that mirrors the 90.1 2013. It goes on and** 

### 22 **on.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 295**  **1 We're going to be working on**  

### 2 **language changes for the 2016 International** 

### 3 **Green Construction Code. And then the cycle** 

### 4 **starts all over again with the 90.1 2016,** 

### 5 **90.1, 2017, NIECC 2018, all of these things** 

### 6 **will be happening during the DOE rulemaking** 

### 7 **process. So we wanted to make DOE aware. And** 

### 8 **AMCA is a leader in the development of these** 

### 9 **change proposals. So I just wanted to make** 

### 10 **DOE aware of all of these things that are** 

### 11 **going on.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. It's a** 

### 13 **useful slide.** 

### 14 **MR. LLENZA: This is Charles** 

### 15 **Llenza. Thank you. This is the kind of** 

### 16 **information that could be of great use to us.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, final comment** 

### 18 **and then we're going to go to break.** 

### 19 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 20 **Yes, I just add on, typically in between since** 

### 21 **ASHRAE, I know, puts ones on continuous** 

### 22 **maintenance, typically, they publish a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 296**  **1 supplement in the midpoint between the three**  

### 2 **year cycle that updates the addendum as well.** 

### 3 **So there's also the ASHRAE 2015 and a half** 

### 4 **midterm supplement that also again -- it's a** 

### 5 **supplement to the 2013 standard, but again for** 

### 6 **those states that are interested, they can** 

### 7 **always add that in there into their codes as** 

### 8 **well.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Michael.** 

### 10 **MR. IVANOVICH: So I get to make** 

### 11 **that slide more complex?** 

### 12 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Absolutely.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Let's** 

### 14 **take a break.** 

### 15 **MR. JASINSKI: Doug, I have one** 

### 16 **more thing that's really important.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 18 **MR. JASINSKI: Just before we go,** 

### 19 **when considering the technology options in the** 

### 20 **efficiency levels, if there is an efficiency** 

### 21 **level -- am I not on? Hello? If there's an** 

### 22 **efficiency level that's only achievable using**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 297**  **1 a proprietary technology, DOE will exclude**  

### 2 **that from its analysis. So if you're aware of** 

### 3 **proprietary technologies and efficiency levels** 

### 4 **that can only be achieved via that proprietary** 

### 5 **technology, that's something that DOE -- if** 

### 6 **you can make DOE aware of those proprietary** 

### 7 **technologies, we would be appreciative.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: According to the** 

### 9 **clock in this room, it's about eight minutes** 

### 10 **after 3. Let's try ten minutes. That means** 

### 11 **at 2:20, 3:20, we're going to resume. Go** 

### 12 **quickly. We still have a lot of ground to** 

### 13 **cover here. So we'll see you back here at** 

### 14 **3:20.** 

### 15 **(Whereupon, the above-entitled** 

### 16 **matter went off the record at 3:08 p.m. and** 

### 17 **resumed at 3:20 p.m.)** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, we're now** 

### 19 **going to proceed with markups analysis and** 

### 20 **hear from Dave Winiarski.** 

### 21 **MR. WINIARSKI: Hi, Dave Winiarski.** 

### 22 **I'm from Pacific Northwest National Laboratory**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 298**  **1 and I've been asked to speak a little bit**  

### 2 **about two portions of DOE's preliminary** 

### 3 **analysis. These include the markups analysis** 

### 4 **which is used to help develop end user prices** 

### 5 **as well as DOE's energy use analysis.** 

### 6 **I'll start with markups. So the** 

### 7 **purpose of DOE's markup analysis is to** 

### 8 **estimate actual final user prices based on the** 

### 9 **manufacturers' selling prices as developed in** 

### 10 **the engineering analysis for both equipment at** 

### 11 **the baseline efficiency levels established, as** 

### 12 **well as high efficiency equipment designs. It** 

### 13 **basically involves two steps. The first step** 

### 14 **is to identify the distribution channels for** 

### 15 **equipment as it moves from the manufacturer to** 

### 16 **the end user. And in that process, estimate** 

### 17 **the share of products of each channel that** 

### 18 **move or that pass through each separate** 

### 19 **channel.** 

### 20 **And then the next step is really to** 

### 21 **estimate how within each channel the equipment** 

### 22 **is marked up as it passes from say the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 299**  **1 manufacturer to a distributor to some other**  

### 2 **entity and finally to an end user.** 

### 3 **This next slide, I want to discuss** 

### 4 **some proposed distribution channels that DOE** 

### 5 **has in the framework analysis and these are** 

### 6 **really broken into maybe two major categories.** 

### 7 **The categorization is not shown here, but the** 

### 8 **first one is what I refer to is the original** 

### 9 **equipment manufacturer channel, channel A,** 

### 10 **where the manufacturer is building a fan and** 

### 11 **he's selling that fan to another manufacturer** 

### 12 **who is going to incorporate it in a final** 

### 13 **product. And that final product is what's** 

### 14 **actually sold.** 

### 15 **When that second manufacturer, the** 

### 16 **OEM, sells the product, he commonly will run** 

### 17 **through his own product distribution chain** 

### 18 **until it gets to the end user. In this first** 

### 19 **OEM channel A, it's simplified. We just show** 

### 20 **it as OEM product distributor, but there may** 

### 21 **be actually some variations on that, depending** 

### 22 **on what types of products are being sold.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 300**  **1 Within the next large category is**  

### 2 **what I call essentially the non-OEM** 

### 3 **distribution of products where you're** 

### 4 **essentially selling a fan that gets directly** 

### 5 **to an end user and is not incorporated in** 

### 6 **another product. So the different channels** 

### 7 **that we identified here, channel B which may** 

### 8 **be a very appropriate channel for many** 

### 9 **commercial fans sold into the building** 

### 10 **industry, the manufacturer would sell the fan** 

### 11 **to a distributor. The distributor would take** 

### 12 **possession of the fan physically. He would** 

### 13 **then sell that to a contractor. The** 

### 14 **contractor, like a mechanical contractor who** 

### 15 **would then install the fan in a building,** 

### 16 **potentially marking up the fan in that** 

### 17 **process, as well as selling his labor for** 

### 18 **installation.** 

### 19 **The next, the third channel** 

### 20 **identified there, distributor channel C, the** 

### 21 **manufacturer does sell to a distributor, but** 

### 22 **the user, the end user actually purchases**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 301**  **1 directly from a distributor. An example of**  

### 2 **that might be a case where you have industrial** 

### 3 **product where the industry may choose to** 

### 4 **purchase directly from the distributor and** 

### 5 **they're going to use their in-house labor to** 

### 6 **incorporate it in their particular product or** 

### 7 **particular industry.** 

### 8 **Finally, we have direct-to-market** 

### 9 **end user channel D here where the manufacturer** 

### 10 **is essentially selling the fan directly to the** 

### 11 **end user. That could be done, for instance,** 

### 12 **in a case where you have a very large national** 

### 13 **account where the end user is the national** 

### 14 **account and they are purchasing the fans** 

### 15 **directly from the manufacturer. Or perhaps in** 

### 16 **a different scenario, the end user is** 

### 17 **contacting a manufacturer's rep directly. The** 

### 18 **manufacturer's rep then is helping out in** 

### 19 **terms of specifying the fans. But the** 

### 20 **physical fan actually is being sold directly** 

### 21 **from the manufacturer and there is no entity** 

### 22 **between the manufacturer and the end user that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 302**  **1 takes possession and resells the fan or marks**  

### 2 **the fan up.** 

### 3 **Finally, we identified sort of what** 

### 4 **I would consider maybe a catch-all channel** 

### 5 **here which isn't accurately defined, but just** 

### 6 **channel E, other distribution paths for the** 

### 7 **products in this industry.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: So while this is** 

### 9 **fresh, let's just jump straight to it. Are** 

### 10 **these distribution channels, do they look** 

### 11 **right to you?** 

### 12 **Dan?** 

### 13 **MR. HARTLEIN: Yes, I'll take it.** 

### 14 **This is Dan Hartlein, Twin City Fan on behalf** 

### 15 **of AMCA. In general, we accept those** 

### 16 **distribution channels as representative. We** 

### 17 **also -- differently. Every manufacturer has a** 

### 18 **different approach to the market, so we would** 

### 19 **suggest that you get that from your** 

### 20 **manufacturing interviews.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: These are basic** 

### 22 **channels, but there are variants.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 303**  **1 MR. HARTLEIN: All of the above**  

### 2 **exist.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, okay.** 

### 4 **MR. HARTLEIN: All of the above** 

### 5 **exist.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments?** 

### 7 **Okay, thank you. Now let's move on.** 

### 8 **MR. WINIARSKI: So within the** 

### 9 **distribution chain, there's going to be** 

### 10 **markups in the price of the product. The** 

### 11 **markups analysis helps to develop sort of the** 

### 12 **relationship between the manufacturer's** 

### 13 **selling price and the final end user's** 

### 14 **purchasing price. We actually do two types of** 

### 15 **markups traditionally in the equipment and** 

### 16 **appliance standards program. Those we refer** 

### 17 **to as baseline markups. Baseline markups** 

### 18 **reflect the relative overall incremental cost** 

### 19 **or a factor, an incremental cost factor to go** 

### 20 **from the selling price to the consumer price** 

### 21 **for products at the current baseline** 

### 22 **efficiency level.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 304**  **1 And then incremental markups**  

### 2 **actually look at the ratio of the price or the** 

### 3 **price factor for going from an incremental** 

### 4 **price increase at the manufacturer, the** 

### 5 **manufacturer's selling price increase to a** 

### 6 **final incremental price increase to the end** 

### 7 **user. Those numbers are commonly thought of** 

### 8 **as different. They are different because we** 

### 9 **try to capture all of the expenses in that** 

### 10 **distribution chain. Some of those expenses** 

### 11 **will not scale with efficiency. For instance,** 

### 12 **salaries in the distribution chain may not** 

### 13 **necessarily scale with the cost of the product** 

### 14 **that's sold. Commonly, things like rental and** 

### 15 **occupancy don't necessarily scale, although** 

### 16 **that might not be the case if we're looking at** 

### 17 **larger fans. The total expenses for** 

### 18 **warehousing might increase.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: To the comment box.** 

### 20 **So we've already talked about 8-1. DOE** 

### 21 **requests information about the functioning of** 

### 22 **the manufacturer representatives and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 305**  **1 distributors for the different classes and**  

### 2 **different market segments that are covered in** 

### 3 **this rule. Specifically also, DOE requests** 

### 4 **information on the different OEM market** 

### 5 **segments that manufacturers will sell into and** 

### 6 **any information on the downstream distributor** 

### 7 **channels.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Dan?** 

### 9 **MR. HARTLEIN: I'll take that one.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: 8-2, right?** 

### 11 **MR. HARTLEIN: 8-2, Dan Hartlein,** 

### 12 **Twin City Fan on behalf of AMCA. All markets** 

### 13 **have quite considerable OEM channels. I'm** 

### 14 **going to read you a quick list, just to kind** 

### 15 **of give you a representation. It's not meant** 

### 16 **to be exhaustive. We have manufacturers of** 

### 17 **heat recovery units, desiccant** 

### 18 **dehumidification and humidifiers, commercial** 

### 19 **HVAC manufacturers, car wash manufacturers,** 

### 20 **dust collector manufacturers, packaging** 

### 21 **systems, vacuum systems, food processors,** 

### 22 **dairy and cheese, restaurant hoods, fume**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 306**  **1 extraction, odor control laboratories,**  

### 2 **petrochemical fire heaters, dryers for grain,** 

### 3 **peanuts and other food products, paint spray** 

### 4 **booths, oven manufacturers such as strip** 

### 5 **annealers, cure ovens for paint, baking ovens,** 

### 6 **et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So it's** 

### 7 **quite an exhaustive part of what we do.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: And just to be clear** 

### 9 **because this is just so fundamental, you're** 

### 10 **making the fan and the fan housing for those?** 

### 11 **MR. HARTLEIN: We are making the** 

### 12 **fan and often the fan housing, but again,** 

### 13 **there's many unhoused fans in some of those** 

### 14 **OEMs as well.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Go** 

### 16 **ahead, Michael.** 

### 17 **MR. IVANOVICH: I think part of the** 

### 18 **point as well, a lot of those manufacturers** 

### 19 **are making their own fans.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 21 **MR. HARTLEIN: That's true, very** 

### 22 **good point.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 307**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Good, good point.**  

### 2 **8-3 has not yet been addressed.** 

### 3 **MR. WINIARSKI: So DOE requests** 

### 4 **comments on the application and market** 

### 5 **segments identified by interested parties and** 

### 6 **information on the market segments including** 

### 7 **corresponding distributor channels and in** 

### 8 **particular, if it's useful to us, trade** 

### 9 **associations that might represent those** 

### 10 **distributors.** 

### 11 **MR. HARTLEIN: I'll take that one** 

### 12 **again, Dan Hartlein, Twin City Fan, AMCA.** 

### 13 **Yes, AMCA obviously is one of those and we're** 

### 14 **proud to be part of that. I think we would** 

### 15 **like to, in the interest of time, suggest that** 

### 16 **we answer that in the written section.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: And help us with** 

### 18 **these -- 8-4 through 8-6, Dave.** 

### 19 **MR. WINIARSKI: So in 8-4, DOE** 

### 20 **requests information on the proposed** 

### 21 **distribution channels and the share of total** 

### 22 **industry shipments that might be expected to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 308**  **1 go through each distribution channel.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Sounds like maybe** 

### 3 **written comment on that?** 

### 4 **MR. HARTLEIN: Yes, written comment** 

### 5 **and also maybe question the legality of the** 

### 6 **request. We're a little bit concerned that** 

### 7 **we're getting into things that we can't share,** 

### 8 **anti-trust issues here.** 

### 9 **MR. LLENZA: The Department has --** 

### 10 **Charles Llenza. The Department has a process** 

### 11 **where you can provide us information that may** 

### 12 **be confidential in nature from the industry's** 

### 13 **point of view. And we will use the** 

### 14 **information without disclosing it to the** 

### 15 **public.** 

### 16 **MR. HARTLEIN: Okay.** 

### 17 **MR. WINIARSKI: In 8-5, this is** 

### 18 **more of a catch-all, DOE seeks comment on** 

### 19 **other sources of relevant data that the** 

### 20 **industry or others feel is appropriate to** 

### 21 **characterize the markups for commercial** 

### 22 **industrial fans. In addition, 8-6, we'd like**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 309**  **1 folks to analyze its proposal to use the**  

### 2 **incremental markup process for its life-cycle** 

### 3 **cost analysis efforts.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, more written** 

### 5 **comments there. Let's move on to energy use** 

### 6 **analysis.** 

### 7 **MR. WINIARSKI: So as part of the** 

### 8 **analyses that feed into the DOE's life-cycle** 

### 9 **cost and payback analysis, DOE must analyze** 

### 10 **the energy use of the different classes of** 

### 11 **commercial industrial fans, as well as how** 

### 12 **that energy will change as we modify the** 

### 13 **efficiency descriptor that's being selected.** 

### 14 **DOE's process here, we typically** 

### 15 **make estimates of the annual energy** 

### 16 **consumption for baseline as well as higher** 

### 17 **efficiency design. There's a lot of issues** 

### 18 **involved in trying to make those estimates,** 

### 19 **obviously. Some of these are that the end use** 

### 20 **load profiles are expected to be extremely** 

### 21 **variable across the different end uses and** 

### 22 **applications.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 310**  **1 Another one is that not all fans**  

### 2 **will operate at their points of peak** 

### 3 **efficiency in practice. We've got some** 

### 4 **guidance here. We've heard earlier about** 

### 5 **trying to get products working in that --** 

### 6 **where there's 15 percent around there, best** 

### 7 **efficiency point, but that may not be correct** 

### 8 **for all applications and it may not be correct** 

### 9 **for new versus maybe existing buildings, that** 

### 10 **type of issue. So whatever information that** 

### 11 **can be provided that's useful.** 

### 12 **DOE's general approach in terms of** 

### 13 **estimating annual energy consumption is to** 

### 14 **develop some characterization of different** 

### 15 **operating points for a given class of fan in a** 

### 16 **given application; develop an estimate for the** 

### 17 **energy consumption for that fan at that point,** 

### 18 **actually the power consumption and multiply it** 

### 19 **by the number of hours that are at that point** 

### 20 **during the year, and then sum that all up. So** 

### 21 **it's a pretty standard process.** 

### 22 **Go ahead.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 311**  **1 MR. IVANOVICH: Is it possible to**  

### 2 **do plots on that? Graphs? Or is that just a** 

### 3 **single number response equation?** 

### 4 **MR. WINIARSKI: Which?** 

### 5 **MR. IVANOVICH: The AEC. Do you** 

### 6 **actually develop plot lines on that, graphs,** 

### 7 **charts?** 

### 8 **MR. WINIARSKI: Well, for the** 

### 9 **annual energy consumption, we can. We can** 

### 10 **develop numbers for each efficiency level or** 

### 11 **some sort of plot that represents annual** 

### 12 **energy consumption levels.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. Prior to** 

### 14 **Gary, it was Michael. Now to Gary.** 

### 15 **MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom.** 

### 16 **Yesterday in the pumps meeting, we talked** 

### 17 **briefly about whether reactive power, the** 

### 18 **related distribution losses and costs should** 

### 19 **or should not be considered in the analysis.** 

### 20 **I'd like to recommend for fans and blowers,** 

### 21 **DOE similarly consider reactive power in** 

### 22 **whatever manner is decided for the pumps rule-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 312**  **1 making.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.** 

### 3 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 4 **Yes, again, per yesterday, there is very** 

### 5 **little missing is any sort of energy** 

### 6 **consumption by the control system itself.** 

### 7 **It's not in this equation. That needs to be** 

### 8 **added under the extended appliance regime.** 

### 9 **MR. WINIARSKI: If I can interrupt** 

### 10 **--** 

### 11 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Sure.** 

### 12 **MR. WINIARSKI: Actually, the** 

### 13 **overall efficiency that's shown up there in** 

### 14 **the equation is actually the product of** 

### 15 **several different efficiencies including the** 

### 16 **efficiency of the fan itself, the** 

### 17 **transmission, the motor efficiency and any** 

### 18 **control system such as a VSD that might be on** 

### 19 **there.** 

### 20 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: I see the control** 

### 21 **system efficiency, but again, is that the** 

### 22 **efficiency, but that efficiency -- again, I'm**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 313**  **1 trying to -- the equation is the efficiency in**  

### 2 **terms of how that control systems affects the** 

### 3 **fan energy usage.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: We're diving rather** 

### 5 **deep late in the day.** 

### 6 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sorry.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: I like this depth,** 

### 8 **but we're not going to go there now. Thank** 

### 9 **you.** 

### 10 **Can you just consult with him and** 

### 11 **find out?** 

### 12 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes, and the other** 

### 13 **thing and getting back to the reactive power** 

### 14 **issue is I think that in terms of that again,** 

### 15 **I think there's -- if there's an issue where** 

### 16 **the systems, again, extended power, it would** 

### 17 **only be an issue is if the power factor of the** 

### 18 **systems is less than typically I'll say 85** 

### 19 **percent and for the most part it's higher. If** 

### 20 **it's consistently less than 85 percent, then** 

### 21 **it's an issue. If it's typically higher, than** 

### 22 **it's not an issue. Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 314**  **1 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I**  

### 2 **disagree. I think it's an issue regardless of** 

### 3 **where you are in power factor because it does** 

### 4 **affect losses and cost.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: And now going to the** 

### 6 **comment box.** 

### 7 **MR. WINIARSKI: There's a large** 

### 8 **number of comments that are in the energy use** 

### 9 **analysis. I'll go through relatively quickly** 

### 10 **here.** 

### 11 **One of them, the first one here, we** 

### 12 **would like comment and input on** 

### 13 **recommendations for identifying high sales** 

### 14 **volume and large installed base market** 

### 15 **segments. We've got some of that already for** 

### 16 **specific industries that might have similar** 

### 17 **load profiles because developing load profiles** 

### 18 **may be difficult.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: So that's something** 

### 20 **I presume you don't have much comment on** 

### 21 **today.** 

### 22 **MR. IVANOVICH: No, but we do have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 315**  **1 a question.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 3 **MR. IVANOVICH: If you could clarify** 

### 4 **what they mean by load profiles because it** 

### 5 **might mean something different in the fan** 

### 6 **industry.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Dave.** 

### 8 **MR. WINIARSKI: When I think of a** 

### 9 **load profile, I think of how much. So it's** 

### 10 **really maybe two different things. You have** 

### 11 **sort of an operating load profile that you** 

### 12 **might have in a building, how often a fan is** 

### 13 **operated during the day. But you also include** 

### 14 **at what points of operation you might have,** 

### 15 **sort of pressure and volume for a given fan.** 

### 16 **So both of those impact the load profiles that** 

### 17 **we have to use in this type of analysis.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 19 **MR. WINIARSKI: And getting to that** 

### 20 **point, we welcome any recommendations on** 

### 21 **sources of data or analysis methods that would** 

### 22 **help generate those different end user load**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 316**  **1 profiles for the different market segments.**  

### 2 **DOE requests, 9-3, DOE requests** 

### 3 **input on ways to characterize fan sizing and** 

### 4 **selection practices. We've actually heard a** 

### 5 **fair amount of that earlier today. But** 

### 6 **anything that could be put in writing would be** 

### 7 **useful. And in general, because we're looking** 

### 8 **at range of sizes, we may be needing to** 

### 9 **develop sort of normalized load profiles and** 

### 10 **how those get normalized to a given fan size.** 

### 11 **Finally, we recognize that there** 

### 12 **are a large number, probably of uses, for** 

### 13 **which data for developing load profiles may be** 

### 14 **difficult and we certainly welcome any** 

### 15 **information on what might be appropriate** 

### 16 **generic-looking load profiles for given** 

### 17 **industrial applications, for instance.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Dan, do you have** 

### 19 **something on this right now?** 

### 20 **MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein, AMCA.** 

### 21 **I am sitting here with quite a bit of** 

### 22 **bewilderment to be honest. We have no idea**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 317**  **1 how to do that. So just to be clear. So we**  

### 2 **would like to know how to do that as well. I** 

### 3 **don't think we're a source of ideas or data** 

### 4 **there.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: We appreciate you** 

### 6 **saying that because it points to a gap** 

### 7 **potentially, so that's good.** 

### 8 **MR. HARTLEIN: We have no idea how** 

### 9 **to do that.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, excellent.** 

### 11 **We're moving on.** 

### 12 **MR. WINIARSKI: So one of the** 

### 13 **issues that's very important, I guess, in this** 

### 14 **rule-making, is looking at the current** 

### 15 **penetration level of variable frequency drives** 

### 16 **in the different installed base of products.** 

### 17 **That's going to become important regardless of** 

### 18 **what metric DOE decides to go down with in** 

### 19 **terms of establishing standards.** 

### 20 **DOE requests comment and** 

### 21 **recommendation on the range and number of** 

### 22 **rotation speeds over which any analysis should**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 318**  **1 be carried out.**  

### 2 **DOE requests information on current** 

### 3 **industry practices and for the selection of** 

### 4 **typical or representative operating points in** 

### 5 **the field. We've heard a little bit about** 

### 6 **that with regard to the range around the best** 

### 7 **efficiency point, but there may be other** 

### 8 **options that DOE needs to consider. And as** 

### 9 **part of that how far in our analysis should we** 

### 10 **be looking at around -- should we be extending** 

### 11 **to a range of operating points around that** 

### 12 **peak efficiency realm for the different** 

### 13 **applications.** 

### 14 **Going back to the equation that was** 

### 15 **shown earlier, we talked about the values for** 

### 16 **motor transmission and motor control or VFD** 

### 17 **efficiencies. We certainly would like any** 

### 18 **comments that could point to what might be** 

### 19 **good mean values or representative values, for** 

### 20 **instance, for different transmission** 

### 21 **efficiencies that could be used in the energy** 

### 22 **analysis.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 319**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: No response at this**  

### 2 **time.** 

### 3 **MR. WINIARSKI: And I think we move** 

### 4 **on.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 6 **MS. IYAMA: Okay, so next, we'll** 

### 7 **talk about the life-cycle cost and payback** 

### 8 **period analysis. And I'll try to move quickly** 

### 9 **on the next sections.** 

### 10 **So the purpose of the life-cycle** 

### 11 **cost and payback period analysis is to** 

### 12 **determine the life-cycle cost and payback** 

### 13 **period for the users of commercial industrial** 

### 14 **fans. And the life-cycle cost is actually** 

### 15 **composed of two components, the total** 

### 16 **installed price and the lifetime operating** 

### 17 **costs discounted to a particular base year.** 

### 18 **The economic evaluation is done from the** 

### 19 **consumer's perspective and results are** 

### 20 **expressed in terms of LCC difference. That's** 

### 21 **the difference between a baseline LCC and the** 

### 22 **LCC at a particular standards case.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 320**  **1 And we're also looking at payback**  

### 2 **period which is total installed cost divided** 

### 3 **by the change in the first year of operating** 

### 4 **costs.** 

### 5 **The approach for the LCC will be:** 

### 6 **developing a fan selection model to reflect** 

### 7 **product choices by customers. We'll develop a** 

### 8 **baseline market efficiency distribution to** 

### 9 **reflect the fact that some users are currently** 

### 10 **already buying more efficient fans, even in** 

### 11 **the absence of a standard. We'll be** 

### 12 **developing efficiency distribution in the** 

### 13 **standards case to reflect the expected** 

### 14 **efficiency distribution for the compliance** 

### 15 **year, the year where the standard will come** 

### 16 **into force.** 

### 17 **We'll be looking at annual energy** 

### 18 **consumption, not just for one year, but over** 

### 19 **the fan's lifetime and we'll be modeling** 

### 20 **uncertainty and variability of the inputs** 

### 21 **using a Monte Carlo simulation approach which** 

### 22 **characterizes the inputs in terms of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 321**  **1 probability distributions. And again, we'll**  

### 2 **be looking at payback period.** 

### 3 **Next, the few slides that I have go** 

### 4 **through the inputs to the LCC that haven't** 

### 5 **been discussed already in the engineering,** 

### 6 **markups, and energy use analysis. So part of** 

### 7 **the total installed cost, in addition to the** 

### 8 **fan product price which is derived from the** 

### 9 **outputs of the engineering and the markups,** 

### 10 **we'll be looking at installation costs. For** 

### 11 **the calculation of the operating costs, we'll** 

### 12 **be looking at energy prices. For price** 

### 13 **trends, for energy price trends, we'll be** 

### 14 **looking at the EIA's annual energy outlook.** 

### 15 **For the operating costs, we'll be also looking** 

### 16 **at maintenance and repair costs and not only** 

### 17 **costs, but also any impacts on the efficiency** 

### 18 **of the product for the fan along its lifetime.** 

### 19 **Another important input to the LCC** 

### 20 **is, of course, the equipment lifetime and in** 

### 21 **the framework we provide some preliminary** 

### 22 **information that we've collected. Fan**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 322**  **1 lifetime between 10 and 25 years with an**  

### 2 **average estimate of 15 years.** 

### 3 **Discount rates will be applied to** 

### 4 **convert the values of money into present value** 

### 5 **and again, we'll be looking at efficiency** 

### 6 **distributions to characterize the current** 

### 7 **efficiency range of products in the base case** 

### 8 **and in the standards case.** 

### 9 **And if no market efficiency data is** 

### 10 **available, DOE may look at available models in** 

### 11 **catalog data.** 

### 12 **We've reached the comment boxes.** 

### 13 **DOE welcomes comment on the factors that** 

### 14 **impact the installation costs for fans and on** 

### 15 **whether installation cost increases with** 

### 16 **higher-efficiency equipment.** 

### 17 **DOE welcomes input on the proposed** 

### 18 **methodology for estimating current and future** 

### 19 **electricity prices.** 

### 20 **DOE invites comment on how repair** 

### 21 **costs may change for more efficient fans. DOE** 

### 22 **also invites comment on repair practices and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 323**  **1 how usage patterns may impact equipment repair**  

### 2 **and maintenance.** 

### 3 **DOE welcomes information that will** 

### 4 **assist in determining an appropriate** 

### 5 **distribution of fan lifetimes for the** 

### 6 **equipment classes covered in this rule-making.** 

### 7 **DOE welcomes input on the proposed** 

### 8 **approaches for estimating discount rates for** 

### 9 **fan users.** 

### 10 **And DOE requests data on the** 

### 11 **efficiency distributions and welcomes comments** 

### 12 **on the likelihood and degree of improvement in** 

### 13 **efficiency of commercial industrial fans in** 

### 14 **the next five to ten years as a result of** 

### 15 **market forces or industry trends.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's start with 10-** 

### 17 **1. What do you anticipate will happen, what** 

### 18 **will happen with the installation costs on** 

### 19 **fans? Will, for example, there be** 

### 20 **installation cost increases with higher** 

### 21 **efficiency equipment?** 

### 22 **Yes, Mark?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 324**  **1 MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New**  

### 2 **York Blower Company representing AMCA.** 

### 3 **If the end user gets a more** 

### 4 **efficient product that would usually result in** 

### 5 **a larger fan running at slower speed. So you** 

### 6 **would consume more space. It would be heavier** 

### 7 **if it was up off the ground.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: I see. It's not the** 

### 9 **fan itself.** 

### 10 **MR. BUBLITZ: If you could make a** 

### 11 **fan a couple points more efficient, aside from** 

### 12 **the expense that went into product** 

### 13 **development.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, the** 

### 15 **installation costs, okay, got you. We got it.** 

### 16 **Other comments on this one? I'm about to move** 

### 17 **on to electricity prices.** 

### 18 **Steve, you always comment on** 

### 19 **electricity prices, understandably.** 

### 20 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: No comment at this** 

### 21 **point.** 

### 22 **(Laughter.)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 325**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: For the record, the**  

### 2 **facilitator is picking himself up off the** 

### 3 **floor.** 

### 4 **(Laughter.)** 

### 5 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: This is Steve. I** 

### 6 **hope the facilitator didn't hurt himself.** 

### 7 **(Laughter.)** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Please,** 

### 9 **Michael.** 

### 10 **MR. IVANOVICH: Regarding the model** 

### 11 **itself, again, AMCA really wants to emphasize** 

### 12 **the importance of product selection, sizing.** 

### 13 **Would the model be sophisticated enough to** 

### 14 **respond to the fact that a higher efficiency** 

### 15 **could increase costs and lead to a smaller** 

### 16 **size selection which would increase energy** 

### 17 **consumption?** 

### 18 **MS. IYAMA: We'll try to take that** 

### 19 **suggestion into account.** 

### 20 **MR. IVANOVICH: Thank you.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, now I'm** 

### 22 **looking at 10-3. How repair costs may change**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 326**  **1 for more efficient fans and also the issue of**  

### 2 **repair and maintenance for more efficient** 

### 3 **fans. Can you forecast how that might go?** 

### 4 **Mark?** 

### 5 **MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New** 

### 6 **York Blower Company on behalf of AMCA. We** 

### 7 **don't anticipate the repair costs would be** 

### 8 **impacted.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: And maintenance?** 

### 10 **MR. BUBLITZ: No.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: No? Okay. 10-4,** 

### 12 **appropriate distribution of fan lifetimes for** 

### 13 **the equipment classes covered in the rule** 

### 14 **making. Do you have -- nothing on that at** 

### 15 **this time.** 

### 16 **Discount rates for fan users. Do** 

### 17 **you anticipate that would be changing? Yes,** 

### 18 **okay.** 

### 19 **MR. BUBLITZ: That's an economic** 

### 20 **analysis. I don't think a fan user would** 

### 21 **exist in that world.** 

### 22 **(Laughter.)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 327**  **1 The question is one company has a**  

### 2 **different discount rate than another. I think** 

### 3 **that's kind of a financial marketing analysis** 

### 4 **and it would just be a function of the market,** 

### 5 **financial market.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to 10-6** 

### 7 **just to be complete here. On the likelihood** 

### 8 **and degree of improvement, in efficiency of** 

### 9 **commercial and industrial fans in the next** 

### 10 **five to ten years as a result of market forces** 

### 11 **or industry trends.** 

### 12 **Yes, Michael.** 

### 13 **MR. IVANOVICH: Yes, as I showed on** 

### 14 **that slide earlier, the trendline is that fan** 

### 15 **efficiency requirements in minimum codes and** 

### 16 **standards for energy efficiency and green** 

### 17 **construction are certainly evolving quickly** 

### 18 **during this time period. And this is a** 

### 19 **catalyzing effort to engage the market and a** 

### 20 **lot of marketing communications about fan** 

### 21 **efficiency and the importance of it. So I** 

### 22 **really think that the efforts that AMCA and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 328**  **1 the industry are pursuing right now on codes**  

### 2 **and standards is going to affect this** 

### 3 **trendline very much.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 5 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 6 **Yes, to follow on that as well, I have noticed** 

### 7 **that in certain jurisdictions that minimum** 

### 8 **codes are being replaced by green building** 

### 9 **codes. For example, in D.C., if you're over** 

### 10 **50,000 square feet, you have meet LEED, you** 

### 11 **have to be certified LEED to get a certificate** 

### 12 **of occupancy. And LEED requires higher energy** 

### 13 **efficiency significantly above ASHRAE 90.1 and** 

### 14 **does give credit for other high efficiency** 

### 15 **technologies. So that is also -- and there** 

### 16 **are other areas of the country where we're** 

### 17 **noticing that trend as well, so that's also** 

### 18 **going to have a push on all technologies.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 20 **MR. HARTLEIN: Just a side comment,** 

### 21 **Dan Hartlein, Twin City Fan and AMCA, as well.** 

### 22 **The FEG program does address the need to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 329**  **1 select a fan closer to peak efficiency. So**  

### 2 **that in itself as it's adopted should drive** 

### 3 **solution or a major solution to what is the** 

### 4 **biggest problem we have in energy consumption** 

### 5 **in this industry.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Tim? Pardon me,** 

### 7 **Michael.** 

### 8 **MR. IVANOVICH: Mike Ivanovich.** 

### 9 **One of the indicators now is that AMCA started** 

### 10 **its certification program for fan efficiency** 

### 11 **grades around 2010. The uptake on that was** 

### 12 **kind of slow primarily because the original** 

### 13 **requirement in codes and standards involving** 

### 14 **fan efficiency grades, but now that those are** 

### 15 **on the horizon, the rate at which that's been** 

### 16 **increasing has been significant. There are** 

### 17 **now, I believe, 35 manufacturers that have fan** 

### 18 **efficiency grades certified by AMCA and over** 

### 19 **264 fan models, certified fans.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: So there are some** 

### 21 **significant trends in the market and industry.** 

### 22 **Okay, good.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 330**  **1 So in addition to amplifying those**  

### 2 **in your written comments, and you've already** 

### 3 **started that with all -- okay. We're moving** 

### 4 **on.** 

### 5 **MS. IYAMA: Thank you. So next** 

### 6 **I'll talk about the shipments analysis which** 

### 7 **is an input to the national impact analysis.** 

### 8 **The purpose of the shipments** 

### 9 **analysis is to project future shipments by** 

### 10 **equipment class over a period of 30 years** 

### 11 **beginning at the expected compliance year of** 

### 12 **the standard. DOE may characterize the** 

### 13 **projected production of fans using economic** 

### 14 **indicators such as private fixed investment** 

### 15 **data for equipment incorporating fans. And** 

### 16 **DOE may use different shipment projections in** 

### 17 **the standards case as compared to the base** 

### 18 **case. And that would be to reflect the impact** 

### 19 **of increased equipment costs and reduced** 

### 20 **operating costs on shipments.** 

### 21 **And the comment box on the** 

### 22 **shipments analysis. DOE welcomes comment on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 331**  **1 the shipments projection methodology. DOE**  

### 2 **invites comments regarding the selection of** 

### 3 **appropriate economic drivers and sources of** 

### 4 **data for historical shipments and shipments** 

### 5 **breakdowns by equipment class.** 

### 6 **DOE requests historical shipments** 

### 7 **data for each of the considered equipment** 

### 8 **classes.** 

### 9 **And DOE welcomes comment on how an** 

### 10 **energy conservation standard for fans might** 

### 11 **impact shipments of the equipment covered in** 

### 12 **this rule-making.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Michael?** 

### 14 **MR. IVANOVICH: Yes, basically we'd** 

### 15 **just like to refer DOE for our answers for 5-1** 

### 16 **and 5-2.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And national** 

### 18 **impact analysis.** 

### 19 **MS. IYAMA: The purpose of the** 

### 20 **national impact analysis is to determine the** 

### 21 **national energy savings and the national** 

### 22 **consumer economic impacts under different**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 332**  **1 standard levels. And in order to do so we'll**  

### 2 **be developing annual values of, annual time** 

### 3 **series of values over 30 years of shipments** 

### 4 **starting at the compliance year and we'll do** 

### 5 **this for the national energy savings and the** 

### 6 **national consumer economic impacts.** 

### 7 **We'll be using the shipments model** 

### 8 **to estimate the stock of affected products by** 

### 9 **the standard each year. We'll be using the** 

### 10 **LCC outputs to develop total installed cost** 

### 11 **and energy use data each year. And we'll be** 

### 12 **aggregating costs and energy use over that 30-** 

### 13 **year shipments and 30-year analysis period.** 

### 14 **For the calculation of the national** 

### 15 **energy savings, we'll be looking at, each** 

### 16 **year, the difference in energy use between the** 

### 17 **base case and the standards case. And we'll** 

### 18 **be taking the cumulative savings over the** 

### 19 **period. That provides the national energy** 

### 20 **savings expressed in primary and full fuel** 

### 21 **cycle savings.** 

### 22 **For the NPV, we'll be calculating**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 333**  **1 the difference, each year, in operating costs**  

### 2 **and the difference, each year, in total** 

### 3 **installed costs between a base case situation** 

### 4 **and a standards case situation. We'll convert** 

### 5 **that into present value using discount rates** 

### 6 **over 30 years and take the difference to get** 

### 7 **to the national consumer NPV, net present** 

### 8 **value.** 

### 9 **And there's no comment boxes for** 

### 10 **this section. So let's continue with the** 

### 11 **preliminary manufacturer impact analysis.** 

### 12 **MR. JASINSKI: Thanks, Sam Jasinski** 

### 13 **from Navigant Consulting again. As I** 

### 14 **mentioned earlier, DOE also conducts a** 

### 15 **manufacturer impact analysis. The activities** 

### 16 **for the manufacturer impact analysis are** 

### 17 **greatly expanded in the NOPR phase, but DOE** 

### 18 **does take advantage of the preliminary** 

### 19 **analysis by conducting a preliminary** 

### 20 **manufacturer impact analysis. The primary** 

### 21 **purpose of this analysis is to assess the** 

### 22 **potential impacts of energy conservation**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 334**  **1 standards on the manufacturers of fans.**  

### 2 **The method that DOE uses is to** 

### 3 **conduct interviews with manufacturers. During** 

### 4 **these interviews, for the preliminary** 

### 5 **manufacturer impact analysis a lot of the** 

### 6 **discussion is focused on the engineering side** 

### 7 **of things, but it is also used to identify** 

### 8 **major issues and the potential outcomes. At** 

### 9 **the end, DOE will collate the interview** 

### 10 **responses and prepare a summary of these major** 

### 11 **issues and outcomes and start to conduct a** 

### 12 **strawman industry cash-flow analysis based** 

### 13 **somewhat on interview responses, but also on** 

### 14 **publicly available financial information,** 

### 15 **primarily from SEC 10Ks and things of that** 

### 16 **nature.** 

### 17 **Some of the major goals of the** 

### 18 **preliminary manufacturer impact analysis are** 

### 19 **identify manufacturer subgroups. These are** 

### 20 **any subgroups that might be disproportionately** 

### 21 **affected by the efficiency standards and one** 

### 22 **default subgroup that is always -- the DOE is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 335**  **1 always concerned with is identifying small**  

### 2 **businesses and conducting a Regulatory** 

### 3 **Flexibility Act analysis to determine the** 

### 4 **impacts of the standards on the small** 

### 5 **manufacturers.** 

### 6 **Secondly, the cumulative regulatory** 

### 7 **burden which we touched on earlier also about** 

### 8 **identifying and considering the impact of** 

### 9 **multiple product specific regulations on the** 

### 10 **manufacturers, whether they be part of the DOE** 

### 11 **Defined Standard Program or outside** 

### 12 **regulations as well.** 

### 13 **So at this time DOE requests** 

### 14 **comments on identifying subgroups for fan** 

### 15 **equipment manufacturers that we should** 

### 16 **consider in the analysis.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Aniruddh.** 

### 18 **MR. ROY: My name is Aniruddh Roy,** 

### 19 **AHRI. I just have a few comments on the** 

### 20 **cumulative regulatory burden just as examples.** 

### 21 **For example, let's say there's a furnace** 

### 22 **manufacturer that manufactures its own fan.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 336**  **1 The fan is installed and obviously the furnace**  

### 2 **which is a regulated product as well as maybe** 

### 3 **other unregulated products, that manufacturer** 

### 4 **would be subject to rule-makings that include** 

### 5 **the FER metric which is coming up on** 

### 6 **residential furnaces, the existing AFUE and** 

### 7 **the standby and off-mode requirements that** 

### 8 **will be in place shortly, as well as potential** 

### 9 **regulation on the fan from this rule-making.** 

### 10 **Another example is package systems** 

### 11 **where you have the 63-ton units that are above** 

### 12 **that limit. They're unregulated. And so they** 

### 13 **would need to meet the fan efficiency** 

### 14 **requirements per this rule-making, but would** 

### 15 **be subject to the DOE energy conservation** 

### 16 **standards below 63 tons. Although the product** 

### 17 **itself, the package system itself is** 

### 18 **essentially the same, it's just a higher** 

### 19 **tonnage.** 

### 20 **Another example is residential A/Cs** 

### 21 **and commercial package A/Cs. Again, the** 

### 22 **principle, the design and spirit might be the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 337**  **1 same, but you have to meet the SR and the EER**  

### 2 **requirements on the energy conservation** 

### 3 **standards depending on the product size. And** 

### 4 **then on top of that, if this fan which is used** 

### 5 **in this package product goes into another** 

### 6 **unregulated product, then you have to be** 

### 7 **subject to another fan efficiency requirement** 

### 8 **per this rule-making. So we would encourage** 

### 9 **DOE to keep that in consideration.** 

### 10 **Coming back to our opening remarks** 

### 11 **on the ASHRAE 90.1 standard and keep this in** 

### 12 **mind during this aspect of the rule-making.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 14 **Yes, Michael.** 

### 15 **MR. IVANOVICH: This kind of** 

### 16 **combines 14-1 and -2. And then Dan may want** 

### 17 **to weigh in after me.** 

### 18 **But basically, we'd just like to** 

### 19 **emphasize again that 87 percent of AMCA** 

### 20 **members are small businesses or 80 percent.** 

### 21 **And in our perspective, we're going to be** 

### 22 **going underneath the regulatory change already**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 338**  **1 with codes and standards, as I showed on that**  

### 2 **timeline. That not only represents changes,** 

### 3 **potential changes in tooling and things of** 

### 4 **that nature, but also the investments that** 

### 5 **they're having to make in sizing, selection,** 

### 6 **software changes, literature changes that are** 

### 7 **printed in electronic catalogs, websites,** 

### 8 **training their reps, training their customers,** 

### 9 **we're undergoing a sea change in the fan** 

### 10 **efficiency industry right now. That is going** 

### 11 **to be cumulative over time and potential** 

### 12 **changes that DOE would implement on that could** 

### 13 **be especially burdensome in that regard.** 

### 14 **So to invest all of these things** 

### 15 **over that long of a timeline and then have to** 

### 16 **reinvest again could be considerable.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 18 **Dan.** 

### 19 **MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein, Twin** 

### 20 **City Fan and AMCA. Just a small comment, back** 

### 21 **to reiterate the small business participation** 

### 22 **in our industry, you mentioned SEC 10K**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 339**  **1 filings. I'm not sure there are any. I'm**  

### 2 **trying to think of a publicly-held company** 

### 3 **that's in our space and I'm not coming up with** 

### 4 **a single one. So I don't think you'll find** 

### 5 **that data. So you're going to have to get** 

### 6 **that in the manufacturers' interviews.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 8 **Helpful. I'm scanning through 14-1, 14-2, and** 

### 9 **14-A and I think we've kind of addressed all** 

### 10 **of them, but I'll give you another chance to** 

### 11 **look and make sure we have. Any question or** 

### 12 **comment?** 

### 13 **Your name, please?** 

### 14 **MR. LAU: This is Chris Lau from** 

### 15 **Navigant. This question is directed to AMCA.** 

### 16 **Several times now you've referred to your** 

### 17 **membership as 80 percent small businesses.** 

### 18 **And sometimes you referred to them, you've** 

### 19 **been citing revenue numbers. The definition** 

### 20 **we'll be using in our analysis is based off** 

### 21 **the SBA definition of small business and so** 

### 22 **it's got an employee threshold. I think your**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 340**  **1 members fall under that. I just wanted to**  

### 2 **confirm though. Thank you.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 4 **MR. JASINSKI: I'll hand it back to** 

### 5 **Sanaee. Thank you.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: So these are the** 

### 7 **beginning of NOPR analyses and these are** 

### 8 **downstream a fair bit. So we're going to go** 

### 9 **through these rather rapidly.** 

### 10 **MS. IYAMA: So the NOPR starts with** 

### 11 **a revision of the preliminary analysis** 

### 12 **chapters that we've discussed and then there** 

### 13 **are the new chapters, downstream analysis,** 

### 14 **starting with the customer subgroup analysis.** 

### 15 **The customer subgroup is basically** 

### 16 **an LCC, but targeted towards a specific subset** 

### 17 **of user population which could be** 

### 18 **disproportionately impacted by standard. And** 

### 19 **so the method used is to expand the LCC** 

### 20 **analysis to examine the impacts for that** 

### 21 **specific subgroup. And in order to do this,** 

### 22 **we use inputs specific to each of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 341**  **1 considered consumer subgroups in the LCC.**  

### 2 **Comment box, DOE welcomes comment** 

### 3 **on what, if any --** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: You can skip the** 

### 5 **comments.** 

### 6 **MR. STEVENS: Well, I'm sorry, we** 

### 7 **talked about cross flow fans and air curtains** 

### 8 **earlier today and they are a particular** 

### 9 **consumer group that can be adversely affected.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thanks** 

### 11 **for getting that in there. Okay. Other** 

### 12 **comments? I don't want to foreclose anything.** 

### 13 **MS. IYAMA: Next we'll talk about** 

### 14 **the utility impact analysis. The purpose is** 

### 15 **to assess the overall impacts on domestic** 

### 16 **energy suppliers that would result from the** 

### 17 **imposition of standards.** 

### 18 **The typical method that DOE uses is** 

### 19 **to use NEMS-BT, a modified version of the NEMS** 

### 20 **model which is the model used to develop the** 

### 21 **Annual Energy Outlook projections that you see** 

### 22 **in DOE/EIA reports.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 342**  **1 Outputs are expressed in terms of**  

### 2 **electricity sales, price, and avoided capacity** 

### 3 **resulting from potential standards.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 5 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 6 **EEI. In terms of this, especially in terms of** 

### 7 **-- it says avoided capacity and that's really** 

### 8 **the peak power usage of the equipment and also** 

### 9 **yesterday with the pumps, not necessarily** 

### 10 **annual energy consumption. The peak demand is** 

### 11 **really the driver for new capacity typically.** 

### 12 **And the issue here is again not to** 

### 13 **-- is under the extended regime, we're talking** 

### 14 **about variable speed drives and all the other** 

### 15 **controls is they're variable and in terms of** 

### 16 **the application, in terms of -- they'll save** 

### 17 **energy, but under peak load condition they** 

### 18 **don't save energy. In fact, depending on the** 

### 19 **energy usage of that control or the drive at a** 

### 20 **peak loading condition it can actually equal** 

### 21 **or actually slightly increase peak demand by** 

### 22 **the fan system, I'll say for lack of better**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 343**  **1 words. I just don't want to just isolate**  

### 2 **things.** 

### 3 **So I hope the analysis can take** 

### 4 **that into account because you're talking about** 

### 5 **equipment with variable savings and variable** 

### 6 **impacts on the actual usage of the system, the** 

### 7 **actual impact on any sort of avoided capacity** 

### 8 **will be highly variable. Thank you.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. No** 

### 10 **additional comments.** 

### 11 **MS. IYAMA: Next I'll go over the** 

### 12 **employment impact analysis. So in the MIA we** 

### 13 **discussed direct employment impacts and in** 

### 14 **this section the purpose is to assess the** 

### 15 **indirect employment impacts which could result** 

### 16 **from shifting consumer expenditures. In order** 

### 17 **to evaluate those impacts, DOE intends to use** 

### 18 **the ImSET model.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on** 

### 20 **employment impact analysis? Okay.** 

### 21 **MS. IYAMA: Next, emissions** 

### 22 **analysis. The purpose is to estimate**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 344**  **1 environmental impacts from potential energy**  

### 2 **conservation standards for fans including** 

### 3 **changes in Full Fuel Cycle emissions. So** 

### 4 **basically here, we'll take the outputs of the** 

### 5 **national energy savings and convert those into** 

### 6 **emissions savings.** 

### 7 **DOE is also going to monetize those** 

### 8 **emissions savings using social cost of carbon** 

### 9 **values developed outside of DOE which are** 

### 10 **represented here and DOE will also estimate** 

### 11 **the potential monetary benefits of reduced NOx** 

### 12 **emissions.** 

### 13 **MR. LLENZA: Just a comment from** 

### 14 **Charles Llenza, Department of Energy here.** 

### 15 **Those numbers usually come from the group of** 

### 16 **government entities that regulate emissions,** 

### 17 **EPA is one of them. And it's a number that** 

### 18 **we're handed to for our analysis.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 20 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 21 **EEI. Sorry, for those of you who were in the** 

### 22 **room yesterday, I'm going to repeat myself.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 345**  **1 Since we're talking about over the next seven**  

### 2 **years, many of the emissions shown here will** 

### 3 **have caps and for many of these emissions,** 

### 4 **emissions have been going on significantly** 

### 5 **over the last 10, 20, or 30 years from the** 

### 6 **electric power sector.** 

### 7 **And right now, there's regional** 

### 8 **caps on certain emissions, especially CO2 and** 

### 9 **I hope that DOE does take and I'll write this** 

### 10 **in the comments, but you know, I hope that** 

### 11 **wherever there's a cap or future cap that DOE** 

### 12 **takes it into their -- accounts for it in** 

### 13 **their analysis like they've done correctly** 

### 14 **with SO2 and nitrogen oxides. Thank you.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 16 **Additional -- yes.** 

### 17 **MR. IVANOVICH: Just one quick** 

### 18 **comment. I know that EPA has just published** 

### 19 **new rules, rule-makings on emissions for** 

### 20 **commercial and industrial boilers and power** 

### 21 **plants. What is the time frame for their** 

### 22 **emissions reductions associated with that that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 346**  **1 might factor into the 30-year DOE analysis?**  

### 2 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 3 **EEI. For the commercial/industrial boilers,** 

### 4 **the large ones, there's two types, major** 

### 5 **source and area source, I believe that both of** 

### 6 **those regulations, I believe that for those** 

### 7 **final rules they go in effect within two** 

### 8 **years, so I would say -- I'll say 2015 at the** 

### 9 **latest. And for the largest ones, it might be** 

### 10 **even sooner. I think it's -- I would say** 

### 11 **within two years, effective date.** 

### 12 **MR. IVANOVICH: I think that's** 

### 13 **pretty significant. Thank you.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments on** 

### 15 **emissions analysis? Okay.** 

### 16 **MS. IYAMA: So the last section of** 

### 17 **the NOPR is the regulatory impact analysis.** 

### 18 **In this section DOE will explore the potential** 

### 19 **for non-regulatory alternatives to new** 

### 20 **efficiency standards. And this assessment** 

### 21 **will be based on actual impacts of any such** 

### 22 **initiatives to date and also will consider**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 347**  **1 information presented regarding the impacts**  

### 2 **that any existing initiative might have in the** 

### 3 **future.** 

### 4 **And with this --** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on the** 

### 6 **regulatory impact analysis?** 

### 7 **So as we had promised this morning** 

### 8 **now is another opportunity for anybody who** 

### 9 **wishes to make final remarks, raise additional** 

### 10 **issues that were not covered sufficiently** 

### 11 **during the day today for anybody that wishes** 

### 12 **to.** 

### 13 **Michael?** 

### 14 **MR. IVANOVICH: On behalf of AMCA** 

### 15 **International and its members, I would just** 

### 16 **like to say thank you very much Department of** 

### 17 **Energy for this opportunity to share our** 

### 18 **analysis and framework document and to make** 

### 19 **our first experience working with DOE in this** 

### 20 **collaborative fashion, what we perceive to be** 

### 21 **very, very positive. So thank you very much.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 348**  **1 comments here as we move towards closure?**  

### 2 **One housekeeping item.** 

### 3 **MR. LLENZA: There's two.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to do** 

### 5 **this?** 

### 6 **MR. LLENZA: I'll do this.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: And from my** 

### 8 **perspective, I'll turn it back to Charles** 

### 9 **Llenza. Thanks to all of you. This was a** 

### 10 **very, very effective meeting today. We** 

### 11 **covered a lot of ground and very effective** 

### 12 **input by all of you. So many thanks and safe** 

### 13 **travels.** 

### 14 **MR. LLENZA: Okay, I have a little** 

### 15 **housekeeping item on the questions that we had** 

### 16 **submitted. I just wanted to make a general** 

### 17 **comment. I think we have to apologize. We** 

### 18 **didn't do such a great job of matching up the** 

### 19 **questions from the framework to the actual** 

### 20 **presentation. So as baseline, let's use the** 

### 21 **questions in the framework document because** 

### 22 **that's what we published. That's online.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 349**  **1 Those are the correct questions.**  

### 2 **We're going to update the** 

### 3 **presentation with the correct questions just** 

### 4 **to keep our paperwork in order and for future** 

### 5 **people that might refer to the presentation.** 

### 6 **They all match up.** 

### 7 **So let's use the framework, it's** 

### 8 **page 66 through 71 of the framework, I'm** 

### 9 **sorry, 72 of the framework document. Those** 

### 10 **are the correct questions to use and when you** 

### 11 **see a C on the number of the question, that** 

### 12 **just means that's a subset of that question,** 

### 13 **so you could just refer to that subset C dash** 

### 14 **a number dash a number subset A, B, C or D,** 

### 15 **whatever it is. Usually, we give it a number.** 

### 16 **If we have a subset, we add another -- we add** 

### 17 **the alphabet number to the side just to** 

### 18 **identify the question.** 

### 19 **Again, how to submit comments here.** 

### 20 **Please make sure you have the docket number or** 

### 21 **the RIN number on the submittal and you can** 

### 22 **see from the slide where to submit and how to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 350**  **1 submit. The comment period ends May 2, 2013.**  

### 2 **On the ASRAC meeting this next** 

### 3 **week, there was a little bit of confusion** 

### 4 **about a webinar, not a webinar. I have from** 

### 5 **my boss, it's being set up. We have your** 

### 6 **business cards. I've given the staff your** 

### 7 **business cards, emails, and we should send out** 

### 8 **an email invite to all parties that attended** 

### 9 **today's meeting and yesterday's pumps** 

### 10 **framework meeting as to if they wanted to** 

### 11 **attend via webinar the ASRAC meeting.** 

### 12 **You're also welcome to attend in person.** 

### 13 **Sure, go ahead.** 

### 14 **PARTICIPANT: Is attendance on the** 

### 15 **webinar limited?** 

### 16 **MR. LLENZA: As far as I know there** 

### 17 **is no limit.** 

### 18 **PARTICIPANT: So we can pass the** 

### 19 **information along to other people?** 

### 20 **MR. LLENZA: Oh, yes. More than** 

### 21 **welcome to -- part of our reason of providing** 

### 22 **webinars is not everybody can travel, but the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 351**  **1 other thing is we do have limitations if**  

### 2 **everybody showed up in some of these rooms.** 

### 3 **So hopefully that won't be the case on the** 

### 4 **actual webinar website. But we've never hit a** 

### 5 **ceiling. Let's put it that way.** 

### 6 **And then my closing remark is thank** 

### 7 **you for attending and bearing with this** 

### 8 **process. I know it's tedious because I'm** 

### 9 **tired and I'm sure that many here are tired.** 

### 10 **But we are looking forward to working with** 

### 11 **everybody that's attended today, people at the** 

### 12 **webinar and other parties that couldn't** 

### 13 **attend, to have a good rule-making in terms of** 

### 14 **fans and blowers here at the Department of** 

### 15 **Energy. Thanks again for attending. That's** 

### 16 **it.** 

### 17 **(Whereupon, at 4:13 p.m., the** 

### 18 **public meeting was concluded.)** 

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This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 398

Energy Conservation Standards for Commercial/Industrial Fans & Blowers

US DOE

02-21-13

Washington, DC