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75–572 PDF 2012

L.A. COURTHOUSE: GSA’S PLAN TO SPEND 

$400 MILLION TO CREATE VACANT SPACE 

(112–100) 

FIELD HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, PUBLIC BUILDINGS, AND 

EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON 

TRANSPORTATION AND 

INFRASTRUCTURE 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED TWELFTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

AUGUST 17, 2012 (Los Angeles, California) 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure 

( 

Available online at: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/browse/ 

committee.action?chamber=house&committee=transportation 

(II) 

COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE 

JOHN L. MICA, Florida, Chairman 

DON YOUNG, Alaska 

THOMAS E. PETRI, Wisconsin 

HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina 

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee 

FRANK A. LOBIONDO, New Jersey 

GARY G. MILLER, California 

TIMOTHY V. JOHNSON, Illinois 

SAM GRAVES, Missouri 

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania 

SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia 

JEAN SCHMIDT, Ohio 

CANDICE S. MILLER, Michigan 

DUNCAN HUNTER, California 

ANDY HARRIS, Maryland 

ERIC A. ‘‘RICK’’ CRAWFORD, Arkansas 

JAIME HERRERA BEUTLER, Washington 

RANDY HULTGREN, Illinois 

LOU BARLETTA, Pennsylvania 

CHIP CRAVAACK, Minnesota 

BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas 

LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana 

BILLY LONG, Missouri 

BOB GIBBS, Ohio 

PATRICK MEEHAN, Pennsylvania 

RICHARD L. HANNA, New York 

JEFFREY M. LANDRY, Louisiana 

STEVE SOUTHERLAND II, Florida 

JEFF DENHAM, California 

JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma 

REID J. RIBBLE, Wisconsin 

CHARLES J. ‘‘CHUCK’’ FLEISCHMANN, 

Tennessee 

VACANCY 

NICK J. RAHALL II, West Virginia 

PETER A. DEFAZIO, Oregon 

JERRY F. COSTELLO, Illinois 

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of 

Columbia 

JERROLD NADLER, New York 

CORRINE BROWN, Florida 

BOB FILNER, California 

EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON, Texas 

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland 

LEONARD L. BOSWELL, Iowa 

TIM HOLDEN, Pennsylvania 

RICK LARSEN, Washington 

MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts 

TIMOTHY H. BISHOP, New York 

MICHAEL H. MICHAUD, Maine 

RUSS CARNAHAN, Missouri 

GRACE F. NAPOLITANO, California 

DANIEL LIPINSKI, Illinois 

MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii 

JASON ALTMIRE, Pennsylvania 

TIMOTHY J. WALZ, Minnesota 

HEATH SHULER, North Carolina 

STEVE COHEN, Tennessee 

LAURA RICHARDSON, California 

ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey 

DONNA F. EDWARDS, Maryland 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, PUBLIC BUILDINGS, AND EMERGENCY

MANAGEMENT

JEFF DENHAM, California, Chairman 

TIMOTHY V. JOHNSON, Illinois 

ERIC A. ‘‘RICK’’ CRAWFORD, Arkansas, 

Vice Chair 

RANDY HULTGREN, Illinois 

LOU BARLETTA, Pennsylvania 

BOB GIBBS, Ohio 

PATRICK MEEHAN, Pennsylvania 

RICHARD L. HANNA, New York 

CHARLES J. ‘‘CHUCK’’ FLEISCHMANN, 

Tennessee 

JOHN L. MICA, Florida (Ex Officio) 

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of 

Columbia 

HEATH SHULER, North Carolina 

MICHAEL H. MICHAUD, Maine 

RUSS CARNAHAN, Missouri 

TIMOTHY J. WALZ, Minnesota 

DONNA F. EDWARDS, Maryland 

BOB FILNER, California 

NICK J. RAHALL II, West Virginia 

(Ex Officio) 

(III) 

CONTENTS Page 

Summary of Subject Matter .................................................................................... iv 

TESTIMONY 

Mark L. Goldstein, Director, Physical Infrastructure Issues, U.S. Government 

Accountability Office ............................................................................................ 4 

Kevin Richards, Acting Regional Commissioner, Pacific Rim Region, Public 

Buildings Service, U.S. General Services Administration ................................ 4 

PREPARED STATEMENTS SUBMITTED BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS 

Hon. Lucille Roybal-Allard, of California .............................................................. 24 

With attached statements from: 

Hon. Barbara Boxer, a U.S. Senator from the State of California ........ 27 

Hon. Antonio R. Villaraigosa, Mayor, City of Los Angeles, California . 28 

Gary Toebben, President and CEO, Los Angeles Area Chamber of 

Commerce ............................................................................................... 29 

Carol E. Schatz, President and CEO, Central City Association ............ 30 

Richard J. Burdge, Jr., President, Los Angeles County Bar Association .......................................................................................................... 31 

Evan A. Jenness, President-Elect, Los Angeles Chapter of the Federal Bar Association .............................................................................. 33 

Robbie Hunter, Executive Secretary, Los Angeles/Orange Counties 

Building and Construction Trades Council ......................................... 35 

Michael P. Huerta, Business Manager, Sprinkler Fitters U.A. Local 

709 ........................................................................................................... 36 

PREPARED STATEMENTS SUBMITTED BY WITNESSES 

Mark L. Goldstein .................................................................................................... 37 

Kevin Richards ......................................................................................................... 49 

SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD 

Hon. Margaret M. Morrow, District Judge, United States District Court for 

the Central District of California: 

Written statement and letter from California congressional delegation in support of the Los Angeles courthouse project, October 

28, 2011 .................................................................................................. 54 

Letter and enclosures to Hon. Jeff Denham, a Representative in 

Congress from the State of California and Chairman, Subcommittee on Economic Development, Public Buildings, and Emergency Management; and to Hon. Eleanor Holmes Norton, a Delegate in Congress from the District of Columbia and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Economic Development, Public Buildings, 

and Emergency Management, September 20, 2012 ............................ 61 

iv 


Insert offset folio 1 here 75572.001

jlojll1 I. 1Hica 

C~'lirtlhlll 

BRIEFING MEMORANDUM 

August 10,2012 

.l1irl(jl. i\,]i},lH,ll:ll 

i"ll11bll1(l.!fitlilUrr 

TO: Members of the Subcommittee on Economic Development, Public Buildings and 

Emergency Management 

FROM: Subcommittee on Economic Development, Public Buildings and Emergency 

Management Staff 

SUBJECT: Oversight Hearing on "LA COUl1house: GSA's Plan to Spend $400 Million to 

Create Vacant Space" 

PURPOSE 

The Subcommittee on Economic Development, Public Buildings and Emergency 

Management will meet on Friday, August 17, 2012, at 10:00 a.m., in the Edward R. Roybal 

Federal Building and U.S. Courthouse at 255 East Temple Street in Los Angeles, California to 

receive testimony from the General Services Administration (GSA) and the Government 

Accountability Office (GAO). The hearing will focus on the justification of a third conrthouse in 

Los Angeles, California, the cost implications of the entire courthouse complex in Los Angeles, 

and a review of the viability of GSA's proposal to exchange the Spring Street Courthouse for 

construction of a new federal oflice building. 

BACKGROUND 

General Services Administration 

The Subcommittee has jurisdiction over all of GSA's real property activity through the 

Property Act of 1949, the Public Buildings Act of 1959, and the Cooperative Use Act of 1976. 

These three Acts are now codified as title 40 of the United States Code. The Public Buildings 

Service (PBS) is responsible for the construction, repair, maintenance, alteration, and operation 

of United States courthouses and public buildings of the Federal Government. 

GSA's Capital l/lves{lIIenr alld Leasing Program alld Ihe Approval Process 

PBS activities are nlllded primarily through the Federal Building Fund (FBF), an intl'agovenunental fund into which agencies pay rent for the properties they occupy. Any excess 
v 


Insert offset folio 2 here 75572.002

funds generated by the rental system are used for building repairs and new cOllstntction. Each 

year, GSA submits to the House Committee on Transportation and Infi'astructure and the Senate 

Environment and Public Works Committee its Capitallnvestmcnt and Leasing Program (CILP) 

for the subsequent fiscal year. The CILP submission includes what are known as prospectuses 

for each project, detailing the project scope, need, and estimated costs, For FY 2012, a 

prospectus is required for any project in excess of $2,79 million. 

Pursuant to the prospectus process (40 U,S,c. 3307), capital projects exceeding the 

prospectus threshold, including construction of new c01ll1houses, must be authorized through a 

Committee resolution by the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure and the 

Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works. The Committee approves the project by 

adopting a Committee resolution. Typically, the Committee resolutions will include limitatiolls 

and guidelines GSA must follow in proceeding with the approved project. 

In addition to the approvals through Committee resolutions, the Appropriations 

Committees appropriate funds each year from the FBF, Typically, major capital projects arc 

specifically detailed in the appropriations bills, However, in the past two liscal years the 

appropriators have not appropriated any funds for new construction projects, 

Federol Courthol/se Cons/ruction Program 

The Subcommittee has had ongoing oversight over the years on the federal COUl1house 

construction program. Last Congress, at the request of the Subcommittee, the GAO completed a 

study entitled, "Federal COllrthollse Construction: Better Planning, Oversight, alld COIII'/I'OOIll 

Sharing Needed to Address Future Costs. "I The GAO provided testimony to the Subcommittee 

on May 25, 2010, on its findings. Specifically, the GAO examined 33 cOUlthouses that were 

constructed during the ten-year period from 2000 to 2010, The GAO found that 3.56 million 

square feel of extra space was built because of the following reasons: 

• The judiciary grossly overestimated its I O-year projection of future judges assigned 

to courthouses; 

• New courthouses did not incorporate courtroom sharing; and 

GSA constructed courthouses above the congressionally-approved size. 

Over Estimating the Future Number of Judges 

A primary reason for the overbuilding of recent courthouses has been the Judiciary's 

inaccurate 10-year projections for future jUdgeships, Because cOUlihouses are designed to hOllse 

judges and their stall's, the overall size of a courthouse is largely determined by the number of 

judges expected to be housed in the building and whether or not judges will share courtrooms. 

However, even as far back as 1993, the GAO questioned the basis on which the U,S. Courts 

calculated their projectiolls for new judges. Tn particular, at that time, the courts based their 

calculations on a case load projection method, In 1993, GAO found that the courts consistently 

over-projected the number of judges that Congress would aUlhorize 2 

I GAO-I 0-4 t7. 

2 Federal Ju(/ichu), <)/H.u:e: Long-Range Plonning Process Nee(/.<; Revision (GGD~93-132). 

2 
vi 


Insert offset folio 3 here 75572.003

The problem of over-projecting the number of judges has not been resolved. In the 2010 

GAO report on courthouses, the GAO found: 

• GSA constructcd 887,000 extra square feet of space due to ovcr-estimating the 

number of judges; 

• 28 of the 33 courthouses had reached or passed their 10-year planning projection 

pcriod and 24 of the 28 courthouses had fewer judges than estimated; and 

• The judiciary over-estimated the number of judges by 35% (342 actual judges vs. a 

total projected judge population of 461). 

Lack of COUliroom Sharing 

The lack of courtroom sharing has also been an ongoing issue. Using information 

provided in a study completed in 2008 issued by the Federal Judicial Center (FJCi, the GAO 

created a model for courtroom sharing that showed significant amounts of unscheduled time in 

COUl1rooms for judges such that the sharing of courtrooms could be at significantly higher levels 

than were in practice. 

Congress has consistently questioned the need foJ' every judge to have a courtroom, 

particularly in the case ofa large courthouse with 20 01' more courtrooms. However, the courts 

have consistently requested a courtroom for every active judge. The Judicial Conference has 

adopted policies with respect to Senior Judges, Magistrate Judges and Bankruptcy Judges 

sharing courtrooms. However, there is no indication that these sharing policies are being applied 

in existing eom1houses. 

In addition, the 20 I 0 GAO report shows that there could be significantly more sharing 

than proposed in the U.S. Courts' revised policies. Using information provided by the 

Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts (AOUSC) and FJC, GAO found that three district 

judges could share two courtrooms, three senior judges could share one courtroom, and two 

magistrate judges could share one couliroom all while still providing approximately 20 percent 

of unused time. 

The GAO used conservative assumptions in making its judicial sharing model, because it 

considered a courtroom unavailable for use even when it was being used for non-judicial 

activities and when the scheduled event was cancelled within a week of the cvent.4 The FJC 

study shows that approximately 50 percent of all scheduled events do not take place. 

Overall, in its report, GAO's analysis of courtroom usage indicates that if sharing had 

been required in all courthouses constructed since 2000 there would have been significant 

savings including: 

} The FJC is the Judiciary's research and educational arm, which conducted an in·depth study involving six l11onlhs' 

worth of daily scheduled and aClllaluse for 602 courtrooms in 26 or the nation's 94 Fecieral district courts . 

. , The GAO included times used for pnblic tOUl'S, law school moot conrts, local bar associations, and other civic 

organization activities, 

3 
vii 


Insert offset folio 4 here 75572.004

• 946,000 extra square fcct was constructed because of a lack of sharing; 

• The number of cOluirooms needed in 27 oflhe 33 courthouses would have been 

reduced by a total of 126 if sharing was done; and 

• 40 percent of district and magistrate coultrooms constructed would not have been 

needed. 

Construction Exceeded Authorized Limits 

GAO estimated that the cost of constructing the 3.56 million square feet of extra space 

was $835 million and that the estimated cost to rent, operate, and maintain the extra space was 

$51 million annually. 

More specifically, the GAO found that: 

• 27 of the 33 coulthouses completed since 2000 exceeded their congrcssiouallyauthorized size by 1.7 million square feet; 

• IS of the 33 courthouses exceeded their congressional authorization for square 

footage by 10 percent; and 

• Three eotllihouses exceeded their authorized square footage by 50 percent. 

The GAO criticized GSA's inability to ensure courthollse projects stayed within the 

authorized limits and noted that GSA consistently built courthouses that exceeded the scope of 

congressional authorizations. 

Los Angeles, CA (LA) Courthollse 

Background 

At the time of the prospectus for a new courthouse in Los Angeles, California, submitted 

to the Committee as pali of GSA's FY 2001 Capitallnvestment Program, the federal courts in 

LA occupied and still occupy two buildings - the Roybal Courthouse and Federal Building and 

the Spring Street COUl1house. 

For many years, the Judicial Conference declarcd tbe LA courthouse complex as its 

number one space emergency. It made this determination based on these reasons: 

• A lack of capacity; 

• Sccurity concerns; and 

• Some oflhe courtrooms are smaller than the standards in the u.s. Courts Design Guide. 

4 
viii 


Insert offset folio 5 here 75572.005

Lack ofCapacitv 

The LA courthouses currently house 59 judges, fewer judgcs than it had in 2000 and 22 

fewer than last projected. Below is a history of the projected number of judges versus the actual 

number: 

2000 60 72 

2004 67 81 

2011 59 73 

At the same time, the U.S. Courts have adopted a sharing policy for magistratejudgcs, 

senior judges, and bankruptcy judges. Only 21 of the 59 judges are active district judges, 

meaning the remaining 38 would be covered under the sharing policy, resulting in thc need for 

42 courtrooms. There are 61 existing courtrooms without a new courthouse. 

If GSA spcnds the availahle funds to constnlct a 24 cOUliroom courthousc as proposed, 

the LA courthouse complex would have three buildings with 85 cotlJirooms and 59 judges. [See 

Attachments 1 and 2] 

Another justification the U.S. Courts have raised is security. In particular, the courts 

maintain the Spring Street Courthouse (constructed in 1938) lacks the proper circulation for 

prisoners to ensure adequate safety. Generally, courthouses built in the last twenty years include 

separate circulation (apart from the public) for the judges and also for criminal defendants 

brought into the court. However, while GSA installed a separate circulation for prisoners in the 

Spring Street Courthouse, it docs not meet current design standards, and the U.S. Marshals no 

longer utilize it. As a result, the U.S. Marshals conduct prisoner movements in the Spring Street 

Courthouse in the same manner they are conducted in the majority of U.S. Courthouses. 

Prisoners arc shackled and moved through the public corridors. In addition, the U.S. Marshals 

informed the committee jf they have security concerns about a particular trial then the trial is 

conducted in the Roybal Courthouse, whieh was constructed in 1993 and has state of the art 

security systems. 

According to the U.S. Marshals' review of their records since 2008, there have been no 

major security incidents other than routine incidents such as the attempted introduction of 

contraband or disruptive individuals. In addition, lollowing a thorough review of security by the 

U.S. Marshals, the U.S. Marshals have takcn the following actions to address any security 

concerns: (I) in 2010, the U.S. Marshal Service ftll1ded a project to secure hallway space on the 

ground floor lor judges to acccss their garage (the hardware schedule has been approved and 

GSA is working with the contractor to begin installation in August); and (2) in 2011, GSA 

5 
ix 


Insert offset folio 6 here 75572.006

installed vehicle barriers at the ramp to secure parking from Main Street and at the loading dock 

entrance on Spring Street. 

In addition, in 2008, despite continued assertions by the U.S. Courts about ongoing 

security concerns in the Spring Street Courthouse, the judges of the Central District of California 

unanimously opposed GSA's then housing solution in a letter to then-GSA Administrator Lurila 

Doan. GSA's solution at the time would have called for a smaller new courthouse, abandonment 

of the Spring Street COUlihouse and reuse of the Roybal Courthouse. GSA's solution would 

have eliminated the security concerns at Spring Street, yet the Central District unanimollsly 

opposed it. The vast majority of existing U.S. Courthouses were built prior to 1990 and do not 

meet the security recommendations of the 2007 De!iign Guide. 

Existing COUl1rooms Are Small 

Generally, courthouses are built to what is known as the Us. Courts Design Guide. The 

2007 Design Guide recommends 2400 square feet for district cOUlirooms, which is larger than 

the size of older com1rooms in use today. Information received by the Committee indicates that 

district cOUlirool11s in the Roybal and Spring Street cOUlthouses vary in size fl'om J 750 square 

feet to over 2500. Of the 32 cOUlirooll1s in Spring Street, 11 do not meet current design 

standards and 28 are in lise. Under the most recent proposal, the U.S. Comis would continue to 

utilize many ofthe.courtrooms in thc Roybal building even though they are smaller than 

recommended in the Design Guide. The vast majority of existing U.S. Courthouses were built 

prior to 1990 and do not meet the size recommendations of the 2007 Design Guide. 

Hislol)' of Project Authorizations 

At the timc of the 2000 prospectus for the new comthouse in Los Angeles, Califol1lia, the 

courts and GSA proposed a 712, I 02 gross square foot comthouse be built to meet the 10-ycar 

requirements of the District Court and court-related agencies at a total project cost 0[$266 

million. 

Subsequently, GSA revised the request to more than I million square feel. The proposed 

plan was to consolidate all district judges into the new courthouse, with the bankruptcy and 

magistrate judges consolidated into the Roybal Courthouse. The Committee approved site 

acquisition and design ofa 1,016,300 gross square foot courthouse at a combined cost of$35 

million in July of 2000, with a requirement that GSA design for and configure for utilization ora 

coul1room sharing model and that to the maximum extent possible ensure continued use of all 

courtrooms in the Roybal Courthouse. 

Subscquently, GSA submitted a prospectus in its FY 2005 Capitallnveslmenl Program to 

the Committee requesting approval for the construction of the new courthouse. The total cost of 

the project had increased by more than $100 million li'oll1 $266 million to $399 million. In 

addition, the U.S. Courts and GSA estimated there would be 81 judges in the following 10-years. 

The Committee approved construction in J Illy of 2004 and again reiterated the requirement for 

courtroom sharing and the maximum continucd use of the Roybal Courthouse. GSA also 

submincd a prospectns in 2008 that proposed construction of a new cOUl1housc and alterations to 

6 
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the Roybal Courthouse for a total of 66 courtrooms and 75 chambers. Neither the House nor the 

Senate took action on that prospectns. 

Since 200 I, Congress has appropriated $400 million for the new courthouse in Los 

Angeles and the last appropriatcd funds werc in 2005. While funds have been spent lor site 

acquisition and design, approximately $360 million remains unspent and no new courthouse has 

been constructed. During this time, costs continued to escalate and the U.S. Comis' and GSA 

believed more funding was needed to proceed with the project. No additional authorizations or 

appropriations were provided. 

Without additional funds, the Committee understands that now the U.S. COUlis and GSA 

plan to proceed with the existing funding, despite the fact that the LA cOUl1houses currently 

house fewer judges than they did in 2000. It is also clear GSA would proceed with a design and 

scope significantly different than what was submitted and approved by the Committee. In light 

of this, Subcommittee Chairman Dcnllam included provisions in H.R. J 734, the Civilian 

Property Realignment Act, reported by the Committee on October 13,2011, that would eut 

funding for the new cOlllthouse and sell the vacant property acquired for the building. In 

addition, on October 21,20] 1, Subcommittee Chairman Denham and Ranking Member Norton 

co-signed a letter to GSA urging GSA not to procced with construction pending submission of a 

new prospectus to the Committee and new authorization. 

Spring Street Courthollse Exchange Proposal 

In response to questions raised by the Committee about GSA abandoning the Spring 

Street Courthouse with no plans to sell it or rcuse it, on June 21,2012, GSA issued a one-page 

factsheet proposing exchanging the Spring Street Courthouse for a new federal office building. 

Specifically, GSA noted that it would cost the taxpayer $250 million to "realign" the Spring 

Street COUlthouse (once abandoned after a new LA cOUl1house is built) for other uses. As such, 

GSA proposed using its authority to exchange properties to dispose of the Spring Street 

Courthouse by exchanging it lor a new federal building of about 150,000 to 175,000 square feet. 

Thc exchange would involve a developer selected on a competitive basis who would construct a 

federal oHice building on the same site as the proposed new cOUllhouse. GSA estimated that the 

cost to eonstl1lct the new federal building would be approximately $50 million. 

Subsequent to this announcement, Committee staff was briefed by GSA. While the 

Committee has encouraged GSA to fully use its existing authorities to address space needs, such 

as its exchange authority, in the case of LA it is unclear whether such an exchange is viable. The 

Spring Street Courthollse, while over 700,000 square feet, is historic, impacting its potential 

value. GSA was unable to provide Committee staff with details of a current analysis on the 

building or other relevant information that would suggest the exchange proposal is realistic given 

the current market. 

7 
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WITNESSES 

The Honorable Daniel Tangherlini (Invited) 

Acting Administrator 

U.S. General Services Administration 

Mr. Mark L. Goldstein 

Director, Physical Infrastnlcture 

U.S. Governmcnt Accountability Ofl1ce 

8 

Insert offset folio 9 here 75572.009

Current Los Angeles Federal Courthouse

Edward R. Roybal Federal 

Building and U.S. Courthouse 

Opened: 1992 

Major Tenants: U.S. District and 

Bankruptcy Courts, USMS, 

DEA, U.S. EEOC 

Total: 59 Judges 

312 N. Spring Street Courthouse 

Opened: 1938 

Major Tenants: U.S. District Court, U.S. 

Attorneys, USMS 

61 Courtrooms 

Insert offset folio 10 here 75572.010

Pending $400 Million GSA Proposal 

Edward R. Roybal Federal Building 

and U.S. Courthouse 

32 Current Courtrooms 

32 Courtrooms 

Proposed L.A. Courthouse 

($400 million construction) 

o Current Courtrooms 

+24 July 2011 Proposal 

24 Courtrooms 

Total: 59 Judges 85 Courtrooms 

312 N. Spring Street Courtho

(Discontinue use for federal c

29 Current Courtrooms 

29 Courtrooms 
(1) 

L.A. COURTHOUSE: GSA’S PLAN TO SPEND 

$400 MILLION TO CREATE VACANT SPACE 

FRIDAY, AUGUST 17, 2012 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, PUBLIC

BUILDINGS AND EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT, COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE, Washington, DC. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 9:58 a.m., in room 

809, Edward R. Roybal Federal Building and U.S. Courthouse, 255 

East Temple Street, Los Angeles, California, Hon. Jeff Denham 

(Chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. 

Present: Representatives Denham and Shuster. 

Mr. DENHAM. The subcommittee will come to order. I want to 

welcome, first of all, Chairman Shuster of the Subcommittee on 

Railroads, Pipelines and Hazardous Materials, and the former 

chairman of this subcommittee, to this hearing today. 

I ask unanimous consent that Representative Shuster be permitted to sit with the subcommittee at today’s hearing. Without objection, so ordered. 

The purpose of today’s hearing is to continue our investigation 

into billions of dollars wasted on vacant and mismanaged properties, and to highlight the waste we can avoid here today by halting the construction of an unneeded courthouse in L.A. 

While we have received a statement for the record from the 

courts, I am extremely disappointed that there is no representation 

from the courts here today. The invitation letter was sent to the 

chief judge, and we followed up directly with the courts to identify 

a witness. We were told that there were no judges available to testify today. It seems outrageous that we are here in L.A., physically 

inside the Roybal Courthouse, inside a courtroom, yet there are no 

judges available to come to the hearing and testify. 

It is even more troubling that many of them found time to attend 

a conference in Maui this week but are not available to testify 

today to justify spending $340 million of taxpayer funds. After all 

the waste this committee has exposed on lavish conferences and 

training sessions, it is mind-boggling that the courts would host yet 

another conference in Maui, a conference that reportedly is costing 

the taxpayer more than $1.1 million, significantly more than the 

lavish Las Vegas vacation that was hosted by GSA, with a total of 

2,760 room nights in ocean-view suites, including several suites 

and the large Palace Presidential Suite. 

In addition, it appears the special rates the hotel is providing for 

this conference extended 3 days prior and 3 days after the conVerDate Aug 31 2005 14:29 Nov 15, 2012 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00015 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\HEARINGS\112\ED\8-17-1~1\75572.TXT JEAN
2 

ference. So it wouldn’t be surprising if today judges aren’t still in 

Maui even though the conference ended yesterday. 

I am also disappointed that GSA’s acting administrator has yet 

again chosen to not appear at today’s hearing. Neither Mr. 

Tangherlini nor anyone from GSA’s headquarters showed up at the 

committee’s hearing on the wasteful spending unearthed, and yet 

more conferences and exorbitant bonuses. 

No one from GSA’s headquarters showed up last week in Miami, 

and today Mr. Tangherlini has chosen not to show up today to explain $400 million for a courthouse that is not needed. It is amazing on one hand that Mr. Tangherlini has removed from GSA’s regional offices the authority to approve conferences, yet he defers to 

the regions on spending hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer 

money here in L.A., and also more recently signing a $351 million 

lease at the World Trade Center. 

So today we continue our oversight of GSA. Just last week we 

held a hearing in the vacant Dyer Courthouse in Miami, Florida, 

which sat vacant for 4 years. The judges in Miami justified the 

need for a new courthouse, telling us that by now they would have 

had 42 judges, and yet they only have 31. Those projections never 

materialized, and now we have a vacant courthouse sitting in the 

middle of downtown Miami, vacant space in a new courthouse, and 

an abandoned court space in a nearby Federal building. And 4 

years later, the Dyer Courthouse is sitting vacant, with GSA claiming, despite receiving $5.5 billion in stimulus, it had no money to 

renovate the building for re-use, and GSA only announcing it is 

seeking ideas from the private sector a week before the committee 

hearing. This was the same thing that we saw in Georgetown with 

the 2.5-acre piece of property. The day before we held a hearing, 

it went up for sale. 

So we will continue to hold hearings and hopefully continue to 

sell property. 

Miami is an example of what will happen here in L.A. if a new 

courthouse is built. Over the last 11 years, the judiciary projected 

there would be somewhere between 72 and 81 judges in Los Angeles by 2011 or 2014. The judiciary claimed Los Angeles the number-one judicial space emergency in the United States and proposed 

a massive new courthouse. However, today we know the primary 

justification for a new L.A. courthouse is wrong. There are fewer 

judges in L.A. now than there were in 1997. Today we have two 

buildings with 61 courtrooms and 59 judges. In 2004, they projected 81 judges and today have only 59. 

If a new courthouse is built, the courts will abandon the Spring 

Street Courthouse and space in Roybal, yet there is no budget to 

renovate those spaces for use by other agencies, and questionable 

plans to dispose of Spring Street. 

In the end there will be, in effect, 85 courtrooms for just 59 

judges, half of which should be sharing courtrooms under the judiciary’s own sharing policy. The result? Like Miami, we will see 

hundreds of millions of dollars wasted on a new courthouse while 

vacant space lingers for years, all paid for by the taxpayer. 

Last Congress, at the request of the subcommittee, the GAO completed a review of the 33 courthouses constructed between 2000 

and 2010. What the GAO found was incredible. GSA built over 3.5 

3 

million square feet of courthouse space that we just didn’t need, at 

a cost of over $800 million. As a result, the judiciary abandoned existing courthouses across the country and severely underutilizes 

new courthouses. 

In response to the committee’s concerns, GSA issued a 1-page 

fact sheet in June proposing disposing of the Spring Street Courthouse by exchanging it for a $50 million new Federal Building. 

While we have encouraged GSA to use its existing authorities to 

address Federal space needs, questions have been raised regarding 

the viability of GSA’s proposal. In sum, it is unclear how these 

numbers actually add up. The fact that GSA has a history of selling prime real estate for pennies on the dollar, such as the examples in Bethesda, Maryland, and Jackson, Mississippi, makes us 

skeptical about this new proposal and how it will work. It is unclear why GSA spends $340 million on a new courthouse 

if it has not taken any steps to verify the viability of this new proposal. It is almost as if GSA cobbled together its 1-page proposal 

to try and justify the $340 million spending on an unneeded courthouse. We expect to hear from GSA today, giving more details on 

the latest proposal, and I look forward to getting those answers 

from the witnesses with us today. 

At this time, I would like to recognize Chairman Shuster for any 

opening statement he may have. 

Mr. SHUSTER. Well, thank you, Chairman Denham. I appreciate 

your leadership on this issue. 

This is an extremely important issue. We have, as Chairman 

Denham has been talking about, and Chairman Mica for the last 

couple of years, about the overbuilding, not just in the courtrooms 

but the vast square footage that we have available not being used 

by the Federal Government. We need to do something about it, either sell it off, we need to utilize it, and again, as a former chairman of this subcommittee, 4 or 5 years ago I initially started to 

look at the overbuilding of the courthouses, and with the help of 

the GAO, they have done a study and have found that we have millions and millions of square footage that has been built, and we are 

not utilizing it. 

The judiciary has consistently grossly overestimated its 10-year 

projection of future judges assigned to courthouses, as Chairman 

Denham pointed out. New courthouses did not incorporate courtroom sharing, which is outrageous that the judges insist upon having their own courtrooms when they don’t use them, when they 

spend much of the time vacant. In fact, the GAO study found that 

three district judges could share two courtrooms, three senior 

judges could share one courtroom, two magistrate judges could 

share one courtroom while still providing approximately 20 percent 

of unused space not being used. 

Also, the GAO used conservative estimates in their assumptions 

in making these judicial sharing models. 

It is just outrageous, especially in the times we face today, that 

the judiciary, along with the GSA, has not put these kinds of practices in place to save the taxpayers money. The GSA, again in conjunction with the judiciary, has constructed courthouses above congressionally approved sizes and beyond what we have appropriated, 

what we have authorized them to build. That seems to me to be 

4 

a violation of the law, and the judiciary is going along with this, 

as GSA is, and they are blatantly ignoring the will of Congress, 

and that is something that we really need to look into. 

Again, if Congress were to blatantly ignore a law we put in on 

ourselves, you would have the media up in arms, you would have 

everybody in this country up in arms. 

So this is something that I appreciate that Chairman Denham is 

taking a very strong and hard look at because we have got to get 

to the bottom of this. We have got to call it like we see it. Again, 

if the judiciary is pushing the GSA to just do things over and above 

what Congress has put into law, then we have got to take some serious, serious action here, and today is one of those hearings where 

we have got to get some answers. 

It has been very disappointing that we don’t have one of the 

judges here today to answer for this, as well as the head of the 

GSA. 

So again, I appreciate, Chairman Denham, your leadership on 

these issues, and I look forward to an exchange of questions and 

answers here today. 

So, thank you. I yield back. 

Mr. DENHAM. Thank you. 

I would like to welcome our witnesses here today. We have one 

panel and only one panel: Mr. Mark Goldstein, director of physical 

infrastructure issues, Government Accountability Office, the GAO; 

and Mr. Kevin Richards, acting regional commissioner, Public 

Buildings Service, General Services Administration. 

I ask unanimous consent that our witnesses’ full statements be 

included in the record. Without objection, so ordered. 

Since your written testimony has been made a part of the record, 

the subcommittee would request that you limit your oral testimony 

to 5 minutes. 

Mr. Goldstein, you may proceed. 

TESTIMONY OF MARK L. GOLDSTEIN, DIRECTOR, PHYSICAL 

INFRASTRUCTURE ISSUES, U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE; KEVIN RICHARDS, ACTING REGIONAL COMMISSIONER, PACIFIC RIM REGION, PUBLIC BUILDINGS 

SERVICE, U.S. GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to be 

here to discuss our recent work on Federal courthouse construction 

issues, and on the L.A. Courthouse in particular. 

Since the early 1990s, GSA and the Federal Judiciary have undertaken a multibillion-dollar courthouse construction initiative. By 

July 2012, that initiative had resulted in 76 new courthouses or annexes, and 18 additional courthouses in various stages of development. However, in 2010, as you mentioned, both of you sirs, we reported that more than a quarter of this new courthouse space, then 

costing $835 million to construct and $51 million annually to operate, was unneeded. We found that new extra courthouse space was 

the result of poor oversight and planning. Meanwhile, construction 

has not yet begun on the L.A. Courthouse project, ranked by the 

judiciary as its top priority since fiscal year 2000. 

In 2009, the judiciary began applying a new process for 

prioritizing courthouse projects that will apply to future plans. The 

5 

judiciary says that the new process was developed in part to address concerns about growing costs and incorporate industry standards. However, this new process does not include the L.A. Courthouse, which has been grandfathered under the old process. 

Regarding the L.A. project, in 1996 the judiciary concluded that 

having the L.A. court split between two courthouses created security and operational problems, that the judiciary needed additional 

space in downtown L.A., and that the Spring Street Courthouse 

had obsolete building systems and poor security conditions. One of 

the security challenges created by the split court is that prisoners 

must be transported from the Metropolitan Detention Center along 

surface streets to the Spring Street Courthouse, which was built in 

1938. The Roybal Courthouse, which we are in now, built in the 

1990s, is connected to the detention center by a secure tunnel. 

In fiscal year 2000, the judiciary requested and GSA proposed 

building a new courthouse in downtown L.A. As we reported in 

2008, GSA has spent $16.3 million designing a new courthouse for 

L.A., and $16.9 million acquiring and preparing the new site for development, which leaves about $366 million available for the construction of a courthouse. 

The project stands in the following way today. In 2012, with the 

judiciary’s support, GSA issued a request for proposal for contractors to design and build a 600,000-square-foot courthouse with 24 

courtrooms and 32 chambers, which would be used in conjunction 

with 25 of the existing courtrooms in Roybal. However, the new 

plan does not address several of the principal justifications for the 

original project, that the L.A. court be centralized into one site. Instead, it increases the distance between Roybal and the planned 

second court location, as well as the distance to the Metropolitan 

Detention Center from where prisoners must be transported. 

Briefly, as you also mentioned, I wish to address the issues of 

overbuilding courthouses, the three causes of extra space that we 

found in courthouses, and the associated cost that we identified in 

2010 also applied to the L.A. Courthouse project. 

These include exceeding the congressionally authorized size, 

overestimating the number of judges a courthouse would have, and 

not planning for courtroom sharing among judges. The initial design of the L.A. courthouse exceeded the congressionally authorized 

size by 13 courtrooms and more than 260,000 square feet. In addition, we found in 2010 that large atriums, like the one in the L.A. 

courthouse design, contributed to size overages in several courthouses completed since 2000. 

The judiciary overestimated how many judges the L.A. court 

would need and therefore designed a courthouse with more courtrooms than necessary. Specifically, we reported in 2004 that the 

proposed L.A. courthouse was designed to include courtrooms for 

61 judges, the 47 existing district and magistrate judges and 14 additional judges expected or authorized. However, in 2012, rather 

than having an additional 14 judges, the L.A. Courthouse has just 

45 district and magistrate judges, and none of the additional 

judges. This is consistent with what we have found elsewhere and 

calls into question the assumptions made in the original proposals. 

Third, the judiciary did not fully take advantage of courtroom 

sharing by judges, which led to building more courtrooms than necVerDate Aug 31 2005 14:29 Nov 15, 2012 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00019 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\HEARINGS\112\ED\8-17-1~1\75572.TXT JEAN
6 

essary. Our 2010 analysis indicated that the judiciary could reduce 

the number of courtrooms it needs by having judges share courtrooms. 

Applying the courtroom-sharing model that we developed, the 45 

current district judges would need 25 courtrooms to adequately address all scheduled courtroom time, which is the number the district court has planned for the Roybal Courthouse. Even this model 

leaves the courtrooms unused much of the time, since 60 percent 

of scheduled court events are canceled or postponed within 1 week. 

Finally, judiciary officials said they had not applied the new 

process for prioritizing projects to the L.A. courthouse because it 

has been grandfathered. If the L.A. courthouse project were to be 

reevaluated, it is not clear that it would retain the same priority 

status from when it was first justified. 

Mr. DENHAM. Mr. Goldstein, I will allow you another minute to 

wrap up. 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I am just finishing out, sir. 

Judiciary’s projected increase in judges has not occurred. This 

suggests that the previous space projections are outdated and 

flawed. The original security assessment did not include the Roybal 

Courthouse, and the old prioritization process did not consider the 

potential for reducing the number of needed courtrooms by having 

judges share courtrooms. 

This concludes my testimony, sir. Thank you for your time. 

Mr. DENHAM. Thank you, Mr. Goldstein. 

Mr. Richards, you may proceed. 

Mr. RICHARDS. Good morning, Chairman Denham, Congressman 

Shuster. My name is Kevin Richards, and I am the acting regional 

commissioner for the Public Buildings Service, General Services 

Administration, Pacific Rim Region. 

I appreciate the opportunity to join you here today at the Los Angeles Courthouse complex where GSA, at Congress’ direction and 

with existing appropriations, is moving forward to construct a 

courthouse to meet the courts’ number-one priority for new construction. The long-delayed project is proceeding in an efficient 

manner, with a significantly reduced scope from what was originally planned and at a size that meets the courts’ new sharing requirements for judges. 

Due to security deficiencies in the existing building and courtrooms that do not meet the courts’ space needs or functional requirements, the Los Angeles Courthouse is the courts’ number-one 

priority for new construction. Between fiscal year 2001 and fiscal 

year 2005, the project received appropriations and was fully authorized, but for a variety of reasons, including scope and cost, was 

unable to move forward. 

Congress made it clear on several occasions during the life cycle 

of the Los Angeles Courthouse project that GSA should work with 

the courts to develop a viable solution for the project within the 

funding already appropriated. In November 2011, the courts and 

GSA announced a plan to deliver this facility with the current appropriation and authorization, eliminating future projected judgeships from the requirements and incorporating courtroom sharing 

policies. Originally planned for 41 courtrooms and nearly 1 million 

7 

gross square feet, the project has been downsized to 24 courtrooms 

and between 600,000 and 650,000 gross square feet. 

Since the announcement, GSA has been proceeding with a twophase solicitation to select a firm to design and construct the new 

courthouse, with completion and occupancy planned for the second 

quarter of fiscal year 2016. 

The project will allow a more effective use of space, consolidating 

the court functions currently housed in 312 North Spring Street 

and the Roybal Building to the new courthouse. The District Court 

will fully occupy the new courthouse, as well as the District Clerk 

and the accompanying Marshals Service. A number of senior district judges, the magistrate judges, as well as Pretrial Services and 

Probation, will consolidate in the Roybal Building with the Bankruptcy Court. These two buildings will meet the security needs and 

functional requirements of the courts, while satisfying the updated 

court requirements. 

This will allow the GSA to improve the security of the Los Angeles Federal District Court and meet the functional needs of the 

court, taking advantage of an unfortunate downturn in the market 

to deliver the project within the current appropriation. 

The consolidation of the judiciary in the new courthouse and the 

Roybal Building, however, will result in a large vacancy at the historic courthouse at 312 North Spring Street. This circa-1930s building does not meet current seismic, fire safety, or security requirements. 

Given the administration’s strong push to aggressively dispose of 

unneeded property, on June 22, GSA announced we would begin 

pursuing the exchange of the property. In return for the historic 

courthouse, a private-sector partner will be asked to provide a new, 

highly efficient Federal building to accompany the new courthouse 

at the site bounded by 1st Street, 2nd Street, Hill and Broadway. 

This new building would allow GSA to backfill Federal tenants out 

of costly leased space, saving taxpayers over $10 million per year 

in lease costs. 

Since the announcement of the exchange, GSA has been conducting due diligence on the property and will begin the Section 

106 historic consultation process shortly. This process will determine what a developer will be allowed to do with the property, thus 

affecting its value. Once that process is complete, we will begin developing a program of requirements for the new Federal building 

and engage the private sector to solicit proposals. 

GSA and the courts are well underway with the plan to complete 

the new courthouse in Los Angeles within the current appropriation to help the courts meet their mission needs, with an award anticipated later this year. Los Angeles will have a secure, state-ofthe-art courthouse, helping improve court functions and services, 

while keeping tenants and the visiting public safe. Additionally, we 

look forward to the disposal through exchange of the historic courthouse at 312 North Spring Street, allowing for the backfill of costly 

leases and avoidance of ongoing maintenance and renovation costs. 

Both actions will result in a more efficient real estate footprint in 

the Los Angeles area. 

I welcome the opportunity to be here, and I’d be happy to answer 

any questions. 

8 

Mr. DENHAM. Thank you. 

While I can appreciate the fact that after several different hearings and several different requests that GSA is taking the position 

of disposal of Spring Street, it has taken a number of hearings, and 

every time we have a hearing, a new ‘‘For Sale’’ sign goes up or 

a new proposal on disposal. 

But I do want to discuss the current appropriation. But before 

I do, this committee requested a copy of your bio and testimony. 

GSA was unable to provide those to us. So let me first start by asking you, do you have any real estate experience? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes, sir. I do. 

Mr. DENHAM. And can you briefly explain that to us? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Sure. I have worked for the General Services Administration Public Buildings Service for over 20 years now, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. And are you familiar with the real estate market 

in this area? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes, I am becoming familiar with it, yes. 

Mr. DENHAM. Do you believe that a developer would build a $54 

million office building and then exchange it for Spring Street? 

Mr. RICHARDS. We are conducting our due diligence, sir, to find 

out, to make sure that that is possible, yes. 

Mr. DENHAM. So you haven’t done your due diligence yet? 

Mr. RICHARDS. We have done some preliminary research to determine if this is possible. We think that it is possible, so that is why 

we are going to continue to do the due diligence, to make sure that 

it is possible. 

Mr. DENHAM. So how much money would it cost for a developer 

to do a seismic retrofit of the Spring Street building? 

Mr. RICHARDS. I don’t have that exact number. We do have a 

total number of around $250 million to renovate Spring Street for 

the courts’ needs if that was to be the case. 

Mr. DENHAM. What would it cost GSA to do the work? 

Mr. RICHARDS. It would be $250 million, sir. I’m sorry. 

Mr. DENHAM. If GSA did it? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes. I am sorry. Yes. 

Mr. DENHAM. Are you familiar with the current renovation of the 

85-year-old Hall of Justice building across the street? 

Mr. RICHARDS. I am not, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. You are the acting director. 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes, I am, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. Of this region? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. You are looking at the Spring Street building, and 

this other one is also in your region, under your purview; correct? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes. 

Mr. DENHAM. I will just tell you, it is a similar vintage and quality building as Spring Street. Do you know what the construction 

cost per square foot is on that building? 

Mr. RICHARDS. I do not, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. Do you know what the construction cost per square 

foot would be on this building, this proposal? 

Mr. RICHARDS. For Spring Street? 

Mr. DENHAM. Yes. 

9 

Mr. RICHARDS. I could get you that number, sir. I don’t know the 

cost per square foot. 

Mr. DENHAM. Do you know the approximate cost to construct 

new office space in the L.A. area? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Again, I could get that number. I was working on 

testifying for the existing building, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. These are basic questions. 

Mr. RICHARDS. Sure. 

Mr. DENHAM. This is the L.A. area. This is your region. These 

are basic just real estate questions, cost per square foot. I am not 

in the real estate business, but I can tell you the cost per square 

foot in my district. 

What is the rental rate that a developer would need to cover the 

construction costs of a new office building? 

Mr. RICHARDS. It would depend upon the cost to construct the 

building, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. Well, let me give you some answers. The cost to 

construct the building is about $300 per square foot. For new office 

space, it is anywhere from $250 to $300. So the rental space would 

be about $50 per square foot. I would love to have a GSA expert 

check those numbers, but you can see where I am going with this. 

Do you know what the market rent is for Class A office space in 

the Civic Center market, where the courthouse is located? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Between $35 and $40, I believe, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. $35 to $40? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes. 

Mr. DENHAM. We checked just online the current market, and we 

were getting $20 to $25. But hopefully we will find a developer that 

is looking at that and willing to pay that much more. 

Do you know what the current vacancy rate is in downtown L.A.? 

Mr. RICHARDS. I believe it is around 16 percent, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. Do you think the downtown L.A. market could absorb a 700,000-square-foot redeveloped Spring Street building? 

Mr. RICHARDS. We are trying to do our due diligence to determine that, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. So we have 16 percent vacancy right now? Sevenhundred-thousand square feet is a lot of space. If there is a 16 percent vacancy right now and you are adding 700,000 to the market, 

do you not think that is going to affect the overall vacancy rate? 

Mr. RICHARDS. We do. We believe this is a unique property, 

though, sir, that could have some potential for developers. 

Mr. DENHAM. Are there plans to move other agencies into that 

building? Are you looking at co-leasing the building or guaranteeing a lease to the new landlord? 

Mr. RICHARDS. All of those options would be available, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. Do you know when the last major highrise was 

constructed in downtown L.A.? 

Mr. RICHARDS. I do not. 

Mr. DENHAM. Twenty-two years ago. Do you know why it has 

been so long? 

Mr. RICHARDS. The market has not supported it. 

Mr. DENHAM. Given the cost to construct the new Federal Building and to renovate the Spring Street Courthouse, what kind of 

10 

rental rate do you think a developer would have to achieve to make 

the project economically viable? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Again, it would depend on what the investment 

would be, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. But you testified that you thought the investment 

was going to be $250 million. 

Mr. RICHARDS. That would be the cost for the GSA to renovate 

that for the courts’ needs, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. By your numbers, it would be $55 per square foot. 

So looking it up online, if it is $20 per square foot, the rental rate 

today, and even by your numbers, if it is $35 to $40, how are they 

going to cover their cost at $55 per square foot? 

Mr. RICHARDS. A private developer may not have the same restrictions that we do, and also renovating for the courts, for courtrooms and prisoner circulation wouldn’t be required in a private 

development. 

Mr. DENHAM. Let me tell you what some private developers are 

saying. We pulled this up online as well, and some of the local 

newspapers. 

‘‘I think it is an extremely speculative deal that is fraught with 

problems in a difficult marketplace.’’ 

Another quote: ‘‘I just think it is a pretty farfetched idea.’’ 

‘‘I think that in today’s economy, speculative office building development is out of the question.’’ 

I can appreciate the GSA is finally taking the position that they 

want to dispose of the property. But when it is just a made-up proposal—I mean, these are just some basic numbers. These are some 

basic, just get online, check the real estate market, see the availability, see when the last highrise was built, talk to any developer 

down here. It seems like it is a sham. These are made-up numbers. 

Correct me if I am wrong. I mean, show me how this pencils out, 

just in the broadest terms, in the best market. 

Mr. RICHARDS. When we get done with our due diligence, we will 

share those numbers with you. 

Mr. DENHAM. When will the due diligence be done? 

Mr. RICHARDS. We are thinking anywhere from 6 to 8 months. 

We are getting ready to start the Section 106 historic preservation 

requirement, and that does take a number of months to go through 

that, and that will greatly affect the value of the building. So that 

is our next step. 

Mr. DENHAM. So when we start construction on the new courthouse. 

Mr. RICHARDS. We are hoping to award in late October. 

Mr. DENHAM. So you are going to go out and do your due diligence in the next 6 to 8 months, but you are going to begin construction in 2 months? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes. We have the appropriation and authorization 

and have been asked to move forward with the project, and we 

think we can do that. 

Mr. DENHAM. Isn’t the current proposal to have a private developer pay for that? 

Mr. RICHARDS. That would be the Federal Building, sir, not the 

new courthouse. They would be separate projects. 

11 

Mr. DENHAM. Have you met with any of the private developers 

in the local area to see if this even pencils out or to see if there 

is any interest? 

Mr. RICHARDS. We have been working basically on the existing 

project. We have not met with the private developers on this 

project, no. 

Mr. DENHAM. So you came up with an idea. You brought it to 

Congress. You have now sold it to the public, but you have not 

talked to one realtor? I mean, you haven’t gotten online and done 

the same thing that we have to see what the local market is to see 

if this even pencils out? I mean, who is running the shop over 

there? 

Mr. RICHARDS. We continue to—— 

Mr. DENHAM. You have been in real estate for 20 years. You 

have been part of GSA. You were up in the Boston market doing 

these same types of transactions. Knowing that we were holding a 

hearing here today, these weren’t basic questions that you thought 

you would look into? 

Mr. RICHARDS. We will continue to do that due diligence to make 

sure that we have those answers for you, and we will share that 

with you when we do have it. 

Mr. DENHAM. I yield to Chairman Shuster. 

Mr. SHUSTER. What I want to get to is along the same lines as 

what Mr. Denham is pointing out here. Again, some of the local 

folks here in the market that know this market think that—one 

quote is, ‘‘I think it is an extremely speculative deal that is fraught 

with problems in a difficult marketplace.’’ 

‘‘I just think it is a pretty farfetched idea.’’ 

‘‘I think in today’s economy, speculative office building development is out of the question.’’ 

So you said you have been asked to move forward. Who is pushing this? Is it the judiciary that is pushing you to do this? 

Mr. RICHARDS. No. This is GSA’s proposal. 

Mr. SHUSTER. So what is the judiciary saying? Are they saying 

stop? Are they saying hold it? Are they asking the same kind of 

questions that Congressman Denham and the Congress is asking? 

Because if they are not, they should be, because this does—I mean, 

from experts in this market, and as Mr. Denham has pointed out, 

this really seems like it is a sham. 

So the GSA in Washington, they are telling you to move forward 

with this? 

Mr. RICHARDS. No. We have made the decision to move forward 

to try to do the due diligence to see if it makes sense. 

Mr. SHUSTER. But then you said you are going to start the due 

diligence in 6 to 8 months, right? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes. 

Mr. SHUSTER. But you are going to start construction in 2 to 3 

months? 

Mr. RICHARDS. On the new courthouse, yes. 

Mr. SHUSTER. And again, you are dealing with the judiciary on 

this. What are they saying to you about it? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Again, working with the judiciary, trying to consolidate their requirements in the new courthouse, and working 

12 

with the existing appropriation and authorization to get that building moving, just to get that project completed. 

Mr. SHUSTER. And this building we are in, the Roybal Federal 

Building, what is the occupancy rate here? Is it full? 

Mr. RICHARDS. I think there is about 10,000 square feet of vacant 

space. Most of that is either under construction or will be occupied 

soon. 

Mr. SHUSTER. Mr. Goldstein, what are your thoughts on the 

building of these new Federal buildings, the new courthouse? What 

are your thoughts at the GAO on the plan that Mr. Richards is 

talking about moving forward with? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Mr. Shuster, we haven’t looked at, obviously, 

this new proposal with the exchange. But I have read the same articles that you have, and it is clear that the market is not thinking 

it is a very good idea at this point in time. So our greater concern, 

as the chairman has pointed out, is that this does seem to be a situation that could be set up very much like what we have in Miami 

today where we have a lot of extra space, and without a successful 

exchange that the GSA is trying to propose, the GSA and the 

courts will be left with 85 courtrooms for an existing 59 judges, 

which is obviously a pretty serious case of overbuilding. 

Mr. SHUSTER. And can you talk some more about the findings, the $800 million to build and then $50 million a year to operate? 

So over a 10-year period, we are talking $1.3, $1.4 billion, and I 

am sure those numbers are going to climb. Can you talk about 

some of the specifics of those findings? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Sure. This was from a report we issued in 2010 

at the request of the committee, and there were three basic findings from it. 

One was that—and it was all having to do with building too 

much space over the years, since 2000 and 33 courthouses that had 

been built, and it occurred for three reasons. 

One is because GSA did not adhere to the authorized amount of 

space that they had said they would build in the prospectuses that 

they had given to the Congress. In some cases, they built courthouses that were 50 percent larger in square footage than Congress 

had authorized, 50 percent. 

The second reason was because the judges, the judiciary over the 

years had vastly overestimated the number of judges that would be 

coming into the system. And so, therefore, space was built for them 

as well. 

And then thirdly was courtroom sharing, that the judges over the 

years have refused to share. They have put in some new policies 

for a minimal amount of sharing in future courthouses for bankruptcy and magistrate and senior judges, but not for active district 

judges. And what we found was that you could do an extensive 

amount of sharing without having an impact on any of the courtrooms, without having to move any trials. 

Mr. SHUSTER. You mentioned 60 percent of the scheduled time 

in courtrooms is postponed or canceled. 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. SHUSTER. Within a week. 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. That is correct, and the assumptions were extremely conservative because when we did this, we took into acVerDate Aug 31 2005 14:29 Nov 15, 2012 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00026 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\HEARINGS\112\ED\8-17-1~1\75572.TXT JEAN
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count, including in the existing time, all time that courtrooms were 

being used for things that the judges and the judiciary weren’t 

even doing, such as mock trials or tours and things like that. So 

in reality, it is even more. 

Mr. SHUSTER. And what do you think about their new sharing 

policies for senior magistrates and bankruptcy judges? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Well, it is mainly for future courtrooms, unfortunately. I mean, as I indicated in my opening statement, you could 

house the entire District Court in this building if Federal judges 

would share, and you would not need to build a new courthouse. 

Mr. SHUSTER. Mr. Richards, your view on that sharing, just what 

Mr. Goldstein said, the entire Federal Court could be housed here 

if judges would be willing to share courtrooms, your thoughts on 

that? 

Mr. RICHARDS. That is an issue that I would have to defer to the 

courts on. I do know that we do have sharing in the new courthouse proposal. 

Mr. SHUSTER. Was that an issue that was ever brought up when 

you were overbuilding these courthouses? Does the GSA, being a 

good steward of taxpayer dollars, push back on the judiciary and 

say, ‘‘Hold it a second, we are going to overbuild this thing’’? And 

more importantly than we are going to overbuild it, we are violating the law that Congress laid out to say that you can only build 

X amount of square feet, and you are overbuilding by 50 percent 

in some cases. 

So what happens when the judges come in to talk to you about 

this at the GSA? Is there any push-back at all? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes. We worked on this project here to work with 

the courts to both reduce—not only reduce the size of the courthouse itself, but we have also worked with them to institute the 

courtroom sharing, as well as eliminating projected judgeships from 

this building as well. 

Mr. SHUSTER. And even though it is a very flawed courtroom 

sharing system? 

Mr. RICHARDS. I can’t comment on that. That is not—— 

Mr. SHUSTER. So in the project here, when you are doing this 

project, you wouldn’t push back on them and say you really have 

to utilize these buildings much more efficiently? 

Mr. RICHARDS. We work with the courts to institute the courtroom sharing in the new courthouse, and there will be some courtroom sharing, I believe, in the Roybal. 

Mr. SHUSTER. But not in the present building? There is very little here. 

Mr. RICHARDS. In this building? 

Mr. SHUSTER. Yes, since this is an old building, so it is—— 

Mr. RICHARDS. I don’t know if there is. I could find out if there 

is sharing here right now. I don’t believe there is. 

Mr. SHUSTER. So again, the overbuilding, when you go over your 

authorization, you go over your appropriations, or authorization I 

guess it would be, to overbuild a courthouse, how does that happen? Do you get in there and the judges say, now make it bigger, 

and you guys say, the GSA says sure, if that is what you want, 

that is what we will do? 

14 

Mr. RICHARDS. I have read the testimony before on the overbuilding of the courthouses, and there was some discussion on 

counting of atrium space and that type of thing and if that contributes to the overbuilding, and then whether there is actual construction cost associated with building that atrium space, and also the 

maintenance and operations of that space as well. 

Mr. SHUSTER. Have you built other courthouses before in your region? You have been involved in over 20 years of building them? 

Mr. RICHARDS. I had a supporting role in one courthouse project, 

yes. 

Mr. SHUSTER. So once again, I just keep coming back to this because when the GSA goes in and talks to the judiciary about building these, who says overbuild? Who says build 50 percent, 20 percent bigger? Is that the judges telling you that? Is that the judges’ 

staff telling you that, to ignore the authorization from the United 

States Congress, to build these things bigger? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Speaking to this project here, again, we are going 

to keep it below the authorization. We have employed with the judiciary to have courtroom sharing, and also eliminating the projected judgeships as well so it is not overbuilt. 

Mr. SHUSTER. And do you think that if they—well, they are going 

to use their courtroom sharing system, which is minor compared to 

what they really need to be doing. Do you think you could even 

make this courthouse smaller if you went back, if Congress insisted 

that they employ the courtroom sharing that the GAO came up 

with? 

Mr. RICHARDS. I don’t know that right now. All I can tell you is 

that we are staying within the authorization we have currently and 

employing the courtroom sharing in that building. 

Mr. SHUSTER. Mr. Goldstein, I know you said you haven’t looked 

at this current project in-depth, but just based upon the analysis 

you did and what you projected, this court-sharing versus what the 

judiciary is going to use, just off the cuff, do you think you could 

save significant space if you went with what you proposed in your 

study? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Absolutely, Congressman. 

Mr. SHUSTER. Do you have a percentage? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. The point is you have—there are 16 district 

courtrooms in this building alone, OK? And based on the sharing 

model—and there are certain kinds. We did both a centralized 

sharing model where you would need 22 courtrooms for district 

judges, 15 district and 7 magistrate, or fully centralized, where you 

would only need 21 courtrooms. And in all these cases, you still 

never hit a period in which you have complete utilization of the 

courtrooms. So you need—they have 16 district courtrooms here 

now. Under a fully centralized sharing model, they would only need 

21. 

There are four courtrooms on the fourth floor which you would 

need only minor changes to in terms of extending the elevator 

shafts, and then you would simply have to take one bankruptcy 

courtroom and convert it. I mean, it is really minor in terms of 

what you would have to do. You are essentially being asked to 

spend hundreds of millions of dollars so that Federal judges don’t 

have to share courtrooms. 

15 

Mr. SHUSTER. Right. So again, just so I am clear about what you 

said in there, you said you believe that you don’t have to—you 

could house the entire Federal Court in this building using time 

sharing, minor changes. 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Yes. And the beauty of it, sir, is this is a very 

secure courthouse with respect to the circulation patterns and the 

prisoner exchange. 

Mr. SHUSTER. So in your expert analysis, they don’t need to build 

another courthouse. 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. No, sir. 

Mr. SHUSTER. OK. Thank you very much. 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I would add one other point, sir, if I may. 

Mr. SHUSTER. Absolutely. 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. The initial justifications that made L.A. their 

number-one priority are not supported by the facts. The major reason was that they did not want a split court because they felt that 

it created operational inefficiencies. Well, the proposal on the table, 

the split court is even larger. The distance between Roybal and the 

proposed new space is even larger than what exists today. So it is 

very perplexing how the justification can be made in those instances. 

Mr. SHUSTER. Mr. Chairman, if I could have another minute? 

They also talked about security being one of the big issues with 

the tunnel here. So if you don’t have the Spring Street Courthouse—well, first of all, we have heard from rank and file marshals, the staff talking to them, one of the complaints was that it 

is not secure, you don’t have the tunnel, you have to take them on 

the street, they have to be shackled. But talking to some of the 

rank and file marshals, they said it is not really a problem because 

if there is a problem prisoner, we will use the Roybal Courthouse, 

we won’t take them across the street. So there are different degrees, I guess, of criminals, people that they are putting in these 

courtrooms. Some have a lower risk. Some with a higher one, they 

would be here anyway. 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. During the course of our audit, sir, we talked to 

the marshals on numerous occasions, and they provided the same 

kind of testimony to us, that there is no reason that they cannot 

bring a prisoner to Roybal and hold that hearing. This is a multidefendant and secure room right here that is used for large trials 

with a lot of prisoners. There is no reason for that to be an issue. 

Mr. SHUSTER. Mr. Richards, just based upon what Mr. Goldstein 

said there, he doesn’t believe there is a need to build another courthouse here. Does the GSA have any responsibility to look at what 

he is saying and push back and say to the Congress, to the judiciary, that we don’t need to do this, we can save $300 million? 

Mr. RICHARDS. When we talk about consolidating court functions, 

currently right now, the District Court is split between the two 

buildings. So the new courthouse would solve that problem, have 

all the District Courts in one building. 

Mr. SHUSTER. But based on what Mr. Goldstein said, he believes 

you don’t need to do that. You can just utilize this building more 

efficiently, utilize the taxpayer dollars more efficiently, and you 

could have it all right here and not need to build a new courthouse. 

16 

Mr. RICHARDS. If you come in through the lobby today, you will 

notice there are three different elevator banks that only go to a certain number of floors. So those—you wouldn’t be able to then have 

all those floors connect. If you want to go to a different elevator 

bank, you have to come back down to the first floor, go over to a 

different elevator bank. In addition—— 

Mr. SHUSTER. That is a justification for spending $300 million? 

Mr. RICHARDS. No. In addition—— 

Mr. SHUSTER. We have to do that in the Cannon Building. I can’t 

go to the fifth floor. I have to go to a different elevator. But we 

make due. 

Mr. RICHARDS. That is just part of the problem. The other part 

of it is all of the bankruptcy courts don’t have prisoner circulation 

because we are not dealing with prisoners. So you would have to 

create new prisoner circulation and elevator circulation to go with 

those prisoners to keep a secure facility like we currently have. 

So there are additional things that need to be done, and it is not 

as easy as just saying that you could convert a bankruptcy courtroom into a district courtroom without adding prisoner holding 

cells, prisoner transportation, secure circulation, that type of thing. 

Mr. SHUSTER. It seems to me, for $300 million, to save $300 million and spend whatever it takes, far less than that, we ought to 

be able to utilize this. So again, it is very, very frustrating to me 

over the past several years when I have seen this happen. 

Again, the judiciary is not serious about utilizing these courthouses effectively, and it is sad to say the GSA is not—I believe 

part of your responsibility as stewards of the taxpayer dollars is to 

push back and push back hard and say we can do this in a much 

better way. You are supposed to be the stewards of our buildings, 

the real estate, and it doesn’t seem to me that that is being handled in an appropriate way. 

I yield back. 

Mr. DENHAM. Thank you. 

Let me start where I finished off. Mr. Richards, assuming my 

numbers are anywhere close, and all of these quotes in the newspapers from all of the real estate experts in the local area are in 

fact right and this thing doesn’t pencil out, what are you going to 

do with the Spring Street Building? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Right now, as part of the due diligence, we think 

we have a unique property. We will try and see what that comes 

up with. We do have over 1 million square feet of lease space in 

the Los Angeles market. But right now our plan is to dispose of, 

through exchange, that Federal Building. 

Mr. DENHAM. OK. But if it doesn’t pencil out, which clearly there 

are a lot of questions since you haven’t done your due diligence and 

won’t do it for the next 8 months, even though there is a proposal 

out there in front of the taxpayers, if it doesn’t pencil out, you are 

going to utilize that to offset some of the million-plus square feet 

of lease space. So you will move other Government tenants into 

that building. 

Mr. RICHARDS. That would be a possibility. Yes, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. How do you renovate it? 

Mr. RICHARDS. We would have to get money to renovate it, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. How do you get money? 

17 

Mr. RICHARDS. We would have to go through the prospectus process. 

Mr. DENHAM. So you would follow the actual prospectus process, 

not go around Congress like you did with the World Trade Center. 

Mr. RICHARDS. That isn’t something that I have been involved in. 

I can’t answer to the World Trade Center, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. How about the Roybal Building? What is the future of the Roybal Building? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Under our proposal, it would be still used by the 

courts. Bankruptcy, magistrate, some senior district judges will be 

here, along with the Federal agencies that are currently housed 

here as well. 

Mr. DENHAM. Is there any need for renovation here? 

Mr. RICHARDS. There would be a need to realign some of the 

space for the courts. Yes, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. And how would you pay for the renovation? 

Mr. RICHARDS. We would have to get prospectus authority, as 

well. 

Mr. DENHAM. And under the current proposal that was approved 

around a decade ago, was the renovation of the Roybal Building not 

part of that? 

Mr. RICHARDS. It was not. 

Mr. DENHAM. My staff has been telling me for the last year-anda-half that it was. Are you familiar with it? 

Mr. RICHARDS. I am familiar, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. There is not going to be any money left over after 

this construction. Do you have a contingency in the current construction plan? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes, we do, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. And what is that contingency? 

Mr. RICHARDS. I would prefer to talk about that in a separate 

session if we could, just because we don’t want to divulge that information in public at this point. 

Mr. DENHAM. It is usually a standard rate for a real estate transaction. Are we doing a special rate? You can at least—— 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes. 

Mr. DENHAM. OK. 

You know, a question that I had for somebody from the judiciary 

side would have been on ignoring the President’s Executive order 

on a couple of different items, but including the conference that 

they had today, or had this week. But obviously, the President has 

issued a number of different Executive orders promoting efficiency 

spending to support agency operations. That one was earlier this 

year, in May; a memorandum in 2010, two Executive orders; the 

Presidential memorandum disposing of unneeded Federal real estate, June 10th, 2010. 

The President sure seems like he is issuing a lot of Executive orders and memorandums to all of his various department heads. I 

understand that you are in a new position, but I would assume 

that you would follow the President’s Executive order. The Commander in Chief issues an Executive order, you follow it; correct? 

Mr. RICHARDS. We are aware of it, sir, yes. 

Mr. DENHAM. So why in this case are you ignoring the President’s directive on Federal buildings and moving forward with a 

18 

project that is going to create 700,000 square feet of empty office 

space? 

Mr. RICHARDS. We believe, sir, that we have the authorization, 

the appropriation to build a new courthouse. As part of that 

project, after we build the courthouse, we are going to dispose 

through exchange the building at 312 North Spring Street. The result of that would be a new office building that we could collapse 

cost of leases, and ultimately that would reduce our Federal footprint here in Los Angeles. 

Mr. DENHAM. Is the President aware of this construction project? 

Is the administration involved? 

Mr. RICHARDS. I don’t know that answer, sir. I would have to 

find out. 

Mr. DENHAM. I have a lot more questions. This is just extremely 

frustrating. 

You are the Federal Government’s real estate expert for California. That is your job. That is your position. Agreed? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes. 

Mr. DENHAM. Yet you don’t know what the size of the retrofit 

work would be on the proposal that is out there in front of the taxpayers and the proposal that is out there in front of Congress. You 

are not aware of the 85-year-old building that is under your purview that is being renovated currently and the construction cost 

per square foot in this market. You are not aware of the cost to 

construct new office space in the L.A. area. You are not aware of 

the rental rates a developer would need to cover the construction 

costs. You are not aware of the market rent for Class A office space 

in the Civic Center market, this local market, as well as the Class 

A office space in the central business district. That does not sound 

like much of a real estate expert in this market. 

I am coming to the conclusion that you are either not an expert 

in this area or you are just lying to the taxpayers. There is a proposal out there that you have given to Congress, a proposal that 

you put out on the street, a proposal that you have taken back to 

the taxpayers, one that you have taken to the administration because apparently the administration is signing off on it even 

though there is an Executive order out there. So if you are not 

going against the President’s own Executive order, I assume that 

they are supporting this idea that has no justification, that has no 

idea of what the rental rates and everything are. 

Let me ask you one last question. What is the Government Accountability Office? What is their mission? 

Mr. RICHARDS. To oversee everything that goes on, to make sure 

that we are spending the money wisely. 

Mr. DENHAM. Is it a partisan group? 

Mr. RICHARDS. No. 

Mr. DENHAM. It is a nonpartisan office? I mean, do you dispute 

Mr. Goldstein’s numbers? Is he off base? 

Mr. RICHARDS. All I can tell you—I can testify to what I believe, 

and that is—— 

Mr. DENHAM. Do you work with the GAO? 

Mr. RICHARDS. I don’t, no. 

Mr. DENHAM. So it is an independent body that comes up with 

its own research. I assume—Mr. Goldstein has testified before this 

19 

committee before. I have never seen anybody question the validity 

of his numbers. 

These are two different agencies under this administration. One 

agency is coming up with numbers, and one is supposed to be the 

real estate expert. How are the numbers nowhere close? Do you 

just ignore the GAO? 

Mr. RICHARDS. No. We are trying to do our due diligence on the 

disposal of the property—— 

Mr. DENHAM. Are they just quicker? I mean, they are doing the 

same due diligence. They did a study. They have done several studies now. 

Mr. Goldstein, does GSA have enough money to build a new 

courthouse as it is currently planned? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. They have the $366 million, the remaining appropriations. But a really important point that both of you have 

begun to work with here is that that is the tip of the iceberg of 

what is going to be required for this entire project, because it is not 

just building a new courthouse. Is it renovating Spring Street. It 

is making changes to Roybal. It is activation costs on the new 

courthouse. It is moving various agencies into other space. All of 

that will cost at least as much as the existing $366 million that we 

are talking about. 

Mr. DENHAM. And just assuming their plan moves forward and 

the new building is built, does the current plan of building this new 

24-courtroom courthouse, does it actually correct the problems that 

they list as their justification for building a new courthouse? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. No, sir, it does not fix any of them. And with all 

respect to our witness from GSA, there still will be a split court 

here. That is the biggest problem, because the District Court does 

include the active Federal judges, the senior judges, and the magistrate judges, and the magistrate judges and their staff and part 

of the Federal District will still be in this building even if they do 

build the other courthouse. 

Mr. DENHAM. Let me ask you a very straightforward question. 

Should GSA build a new courthouse? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Sir, that is a policy decision, but the facts do not 

support the justification. 

Mr. DENHAM. Could the existing buildings house the L.A. court 

in a safe and efficient way? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Yes, sir, they can. As I discussed earlier, Roybal 

could fit the Federal District Court with sharing. 

Mr. DENHAM. So if they instituted the courtroom sharing policy— 

courtrooms right now currently get used about 2.5 hours a day? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. That is correct. 

Mr. DENHAM. So if they went to a courtroom sharing model, you 

could fit the entire court into the Roybal Building? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Yes, sir, you could. Now, you would be moving 

some bankruptcy probably elsewhere, back into Spring and things 

like that, perhaps. You could spend a lot less than you are going 

to have to spend for the building—— 

Mr. DENHAM. Could you move everybody into the Roybal Building and still get rid of Spring Street? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. That I would have to look at. 

Mr. DENHAM. Are there any vacancies in the Roybal Building? 

20 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I don’t know. 

Mr. DENHAM. There were last year. I know there was at least a 

whole floor that was vacant. 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. When I last toured this building about 2 years 

ago, there was quite a bit of it, and there were also courtrooms that 

were literally being used to store furniture. 

Mr. DENHAM. One of the questions that comes up is the need for 

Government or for Federal office space in the area. I don’t dispute 

that we have a huge amount of leases in the L.A. area, well over 

1 million square feet. Could we utilize the money to build office 

space and get out of a lot of the expensive lease space that we are 

in? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I am sure you could. I haven’t looked at the market here specifically for those kinds of things, but I think that it 

is certainly a viable option. 

Mr. DENHAM. Thank you. 

Mr. Shuster. 

Mr. SHUSTER. Thank you. I think you covered my questions. I appreciate that. 

Mr. DENHAM. Mr. Goldstein, do you work with GSA? I mean, I 

understand you are an independent body, but—— 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. We are the investigative arm of Congress, sir. So 

we are a congressional agency. We are not an agency of the executive branch. But we work routinely with GSA. I probably meet with 

someone from GSA on a weekly basis. We do a lot of work in the 

construction facilities and courthouses, all of the work with regard 

to security and the Federal Protective Service of all Federal property. I probably have about 10 jobs going at any one time that involve GSA. 

Mr. DENHAM. Is it cooperation? Do you work well with them? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Yes, sir, we do. We have differences of opinion, 

but we do work very well with them. 

Mr. DENHAM. But your job is not to evaluate policy. You are just 

strictly looking at the numbers. 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. That is correct. We are the investigators and 

auditors of the Congress. We bring information to the Congress for 

their determination of what to do with it. Yes, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. I guess what I—you know, we have had these 

hearings over and over again, in many different vacant buildings 

around the Nation. We are going to continue to hold these hearings. But the thing that continues to fascinate me, when we have 

the IG come in and the IG does an investigation, the Inspector 

General does an investigation, GSA seems to follow every detail of 

what the investigation comes up with. And in some cases, with the 

conferences in Las Vegas, some things were even referred to the 

DOJ. There was criminal action taken. 

So if GSA follows all the information from the IG, and you are 

the Government Accountability Office under the President, under 

the administration, why do they not follow any of your numbers? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I don’t have a good answer for that, sir. I wish 

I did. 

Mr. DENHAM. Before I turn it over to Mr. Shuster, Mr. Richards, 

San Diego just built a new courthouse, did they not? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes. 

21 

Mr. DENHAM. Are they in the final construction phases? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes. 

Mr. DENHAM. Any reason why my staff would not be able to take 

a tour of that this afternoon? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Sure. 

Mr. DENHAM. You can arrange that for us? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Sure. 

Mr. DENHAM. Thank you. 

Mr. SHUSTER. Mr. Richards, you brought up, when we talked 

about Mr. Goldstein believes we can house the entire Federal Court 

here in the Roybal Building, you don’t believe so, and you talked 

about prisoner circulation, security concerns. Despite the fact that 

the U.S. marshals have reported there are no major incidents occurring in the recent years, do you agree with that, concur with 

that? The marshals say it is not a big problem. 

A security concern raised by the court is again prisoner circulation at Spring Street, yet the GSA currently is renovating the 

Thurgood Marshall Courthouse in New York City and they are not 

going to have separate prisoner circulation when the courts move 

back there. Why couldn’t—why does the GSA in New York view it 

differently than the GSA in Los Angeles? Is there that much of a 

difference in those two cities? Why couldn’t you do the same thing 

here and save millions and millions of dollars? 

Mr. RICHARDS. I am not familiar with the situation or the security issues with the Thurgood Marshall. I do know that they have 

been—the issues of security have been raised here to a level that 

we feel that we should continue to move ahead with the courthouse 

that is—— 

Mr. SHUSTER. Although there are no reports of any incidents. 

Again, I think it would be wise to call your counterpart up in New 

York City and say why are you doing what you are doing, explain 

it to me, because they are doing it for far less. I think it is about 

$200 million. They are saving $60 to $100 million on that project. 

So I would encourage you to call your counterpart in New York and 

find out why they are able to do it and live with it and Los Angeles 

is not. 

I yield back. 

Mr. DENHAM. Thank you. 

When I get back to Washington, DC, I plan on sitting down with 

Mr. Tangherlini again and asking him about the GAO’s numbers 

and understanding why it appears the two agencies aren’t working 

better together, or at least utilizing some of the same information. 

If GAO has done several studies and they can tell us exactly what 

square footage costs are, what construction costs are, space availability, I find it unbelievable that GSA can’t tell us that same information. 

So I would certainly like to see the two agencies working together. Again, you don’t have to agree on policy. He doesn’t have 

to agree on whether or not courtroom sharing should be a policy 

matter or whether or not GSA—you are in charge of the buildings, 

and certainly he may have a difference of opinion on whether a 

courtroom is needed or gets built. But you ought to all agree on the 

numbers. The numbers are what they are. You can look at any real 

22 

estate market and see what the going rate is and see what the construction costs are and see if things pencil out. 

So I have a hard time understanding how a proposal can be out there and how you are going to move forward on spending $360 

million of taxpayer dollars without having justification for the proposal. 

I have a long list of questions here that certainly would take 

much more than the time we have allotted here. I am going to submit those to GSA for clarification. 

Let me follow back on one thing you said, Mr. Richards. Certainly there has been a lot of concern about the World Trade Center lease. I understand that is not in your region. But certainly 

with the World Trade Center lease, they have gone around Congress, gone against GSA’s own policy, gone against the President’s 

Executive order. 

But in this case here, are you fully prepared to come back to 

Congress for a prospectus? 

Mr. RICHARDS. We feel that we have the authorization and appropriation to go ahead with this project. 

Mr. DENHAM. To go ahead with the—to spend the $360 million 

to build? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Right. 

Mr. DENHAM. But the prospectus as far as renovation on Spring 

Street prospectus? 

Mr. RICHARDS. The Spring Street proposal now is to exchange it 

through disposal. 

Mr. DENHAM. It still requires a prospectus? 

Mr. RICHARDS. I don’t believe so. I think we have the authority, 

the exchange authority, to do that. 

Mr. DENHAM. If you have to do a renovation on Spring Street and 

this proposal doesn’t pencil out, there is no developer that is willing 

to do the exchange, you would be coming back to Congress for a 

prospectus? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Correct, yes. 

Mr. DENHAM. If you needed a new appropriation or allocation for 

renovation of Roybal, you would be coming back for a prospectus? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes. 

Mr. DENHAM. So in sum, you fully plan on following your own 

guideline and following the law in coming back to Congress, back 

to this committee for a prospectus on any new building, on any new 

renovation that would be outside of what you feel we have a difference of opinion certainly on the construction of this building that 

was proposed over a decade ago? But anything new, anything else 

that comes, new leases, new renovations, new appropriations, you 

fully expect to comply with the law? 

Mr. RICHARDS. Yes, we do, sir. 

Mr. DENHAM. Thank you. 

I think you can sense the frustration. I mean, certainly I am 

frustrated that Mr. Tangherlini is not here himself. I mean, he and 

I have had a very open relationship. I was somewhat intrigued by 

the new proposal because we were looking at disposing of a property. I thought that was a first good step. While we may disagree, 

I do believe in the GAO’s numbers. So I find it hard to justify the 

new building being constructed at all. I would prefer to see, if new 

23 

construction was going to move forward, that you would actually 

move out of the million-plus lease square footage that we have 

around here. My personal belief is you can’t justify the new courthouse, but we can have disagreements on policy. I find it hard to 

understand why the numbers can be so different, or not have numbers at all. 

Mr. Tangherlini should be here. He was invited several months 

ago, and we have been trying to be open about this process. Again, 

we may disagree on the policy, but the numbers should speak for 

themselves. So we will be submitting a number of different questions to you. 

With that, I would like to thank both of you for your testimony 

today. Mr. Richards, as you move forward in this new position and 

no longer are acting director but before you actually take the full 

responsibility of the new position, I would expect you to have these 

answers. 

So we will submit them for the record. Again, I thank each of you 

for your testimony today. 

And if there are no further questions, Mr. Shuster, I would ask 

unanimous consent that the record of today’s hearing remain open 

until such time as our witnesses have provided answers to all of 

our questions that are going to be submitted in writing, and unanimous consent that the record remain open for 15 days for any additional comments and information submitted by Members or witnesses to be included in the record of today’s hearing. 

Without objection, so ordered. 

I would like to thank our witnesses again for their testimony. 

If no Members have anything to add, the subcommittee stands 

adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:02 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

24 


Insert offset folio 11 here 75572.011

Comrnlttee on Appropriations 

Subcommittee on Labor, 

Health and Huron.., Services Jnd 

Educali()n 

Swb~omnl1ttcc ort Homeland 

LUCILLE ROYBAl.-ALLARU J4Tll D.lSTRICL \. 'AL!H)f{'IA 

Statement of Rep. Lucille Roybal-Allard 

Subcommittee Field Hearing 

Economic Development, Public Buildings and Emergency Management Subcommittee 

Los Angeles Courthouse: Genera! Services Administration's Plan 

Roybal Federal Building, Los Angeles, CA 

August 17, 2012 

Mr. Chairman: 

Welcome to the Roybal Federal Building and my Los Angeles congressional district. While I 

am unable to attend today's hearing on the General Services Administration's (GSA) plan for 

the much needed federal courthouse for the United States District Court, Central District of 

California in Los Angeles, I would like to submit this statement for the hearing record to again 

affirm my long standing support for this important project. I am also including similar 

statements from several key stakeholders. 

Courthouse Need 

Located in one of the busiest metropolitan areas in the nation, the Los Angeles division court 

of the Central District of California handles a high percentage of complex criminal cases 

related to drugs, murder, mafia, and terrorism. The two buildings that currently house the court 

already suffer from critical security and operational deficiencies that will only be exacerbated in 

the future. The project was declared a space emergency by the Judicial Conference of the 

United States in 2003 and has been the Judiciary's top building priority since that time. 

The current aging Spring Street federal courthouse is a seismically unsound, aging facility with 

serious security challenges. Built in the 1930's as a post office long before modern building 

codes and mitigating technologies, the facility is at risk in earthquake-prone Southern 

California. The building is not easily adapted to modern technology, security and safety 

features necessary to address 21st century challenges and threats. Employees, the visiting 

public, jurors and judges are all at risk as the configuration of the building requires their 

mingling with often dangerous defendants in public spaces including elevators and garages. 

Only a modern building can address the challenges facing the court today. 

A new courthouse for the Central District of California has been needed for over a decade. In 

that time, the project has been reviewed, revised, and reworked numerous times. The court 

has worked with GSA to downsize the project so that it could be built within the existing 

appropriation. The current proposal would construct a building that would meet existing 
25 


Insert offset folio 12 here 75572.012

2 

Judicial Conference policies on senior judge courtroom sharing and contains no space for 

projected new judgeship positions. The new courthouse would house all federal district judges 

but would not be sufficiently large to accommodate all federal judges whose duty station is Los 

Angeles. The balance of the judges would occupy the Roybal building, which also houses the 

bankruptcy court. Earlier this year, the Office of Management and Budget and the GSA 

approved moving forward with the project and issued a request for information to begin the 

process. Most recently, in affirming the decision to move forward on the project, Acting GSA 

Administrator Tangherlini devised an innovative plan to dispose of the Spring Street facility 

once the court vacates it. 

Specific Operational and Security Concerns 

A new courthouse is needed to address a variety of security and operational concerns. 

• According to the U.S. Marshals Service (USMS), the Spring Street courthouse is among 

the worst security risks in the nation; many serious security issues affect the safety of the 

public, the marshals, and the judges. 

• With no vehicle sally port, prisoners are brought through the judges' parking area and 

prisoners and judges often encounter each other upon exiting their respective vehicles 

because they enter/exit the garage at the same pOint. 

• The central holding facilities of the main cellblock are extremely undersized. As a result, incustody defendants may be placed together, adding to the security risk. Additionally, some 

in-custody defendants are moved to another facility which causes delays and requires 

additional Marshal support. 

• The pathway from the central cell block to 12 of the 29 courtrooms is circuitous through 

extremely narrow corridors and staircases. Escorting large numbers of prisoners who are 

shackled together in such tight spaces with blind spots is extremely dangerous for both the 

marshals and the prisoners. Because of this risk, prisoners are often moved to these 

courtrooms through public elevators and public corridors, crossing paths with the public, 

jurors and witnesses. The only prisoner access to the remaining 17 courtrooms is 

through the public corridors. 

Spring Street Proposal 

Recently, I had the opportunity to accompany GSA Acting Administrator Dan Tangherlini on an 

inspection tour of the Spring Street courthouse and the Roybal Federal Building to show him 

the unsafe and deficient facilities the court and the public currently use. I commend 

Administrator Tangherlini for the plan he has proposed to dispose of the Spring Street building 

once the federal district court vacates it and occupies the new courthouse building. The plan is 

an innovative, practical, and fiscally responsible solution to meet our judiciary and federal 

workspace needs in downtown Los Angeles. The Administrator's proposal will involve the 
26 


Insert offset folio 13 here 75572.013

3 

exchange of the Spring Street courthouse for the construction of a new federal office building 

adjacent to the new federal courthouse. and will save taxpayers more than $150 million over 

other proposals which called for the renovation of the aging Spring Street facility. This new 

plan will create even more construction jobs for our community and is a win. win. win for the 

courts. federal employees and the people of Southern California. I applaud Administrator 

Tangherlini for his visionary leadership in charting this new course. 

Positive Economic impacts of the Proposal 

In earlier testimony before Congress. the General Services Administration (GSA) stated that 

more than one-half of the total expenditures for construction of a courthouse would benefit the 

local economy in the form of salaries for construction-industry workers. Unemployment in Los 

Angeles County is over 12%; a large percentage of the unemployed work in the construction 

industry. which. as of February. had experienced a year over year (2010 to 2011) decrease in 

jobs of 4.9%. The courthouse construction project would create thousands of jobs. which 

would last over the approximate five year life of the project. This calculation of jobs does not 

factor in the "multiplier effect" of those construction salaries. from purchasing groceries. paying 

rent and mortgages. making car payments. to generating tax revenue for state and local 

governments. Clearly. the courthouse construction project in Los Angeles would not only 

impact the tradesmen working on the project. but the community overall. The site is in a prime 

location in downtown Los Angeles that is cleared and ready for construction today. 

Conclusion 

The Judiciary and GSA believe that they have found a cost-effective resolution to a longstanding problem which will provide long-term, secure housing for the Los Angeles district 

court as well as dispose of surplus federal property. This project incorporates courtroom 

sharing policies, and the directives from the House Transportation and Infrastructure 

Committee to maximize the use of the Roybal Building to the extent practicable. 

In closing. I want to stress again the critical need of the Los Angeles community to have safe. 

functional and efficient facilities in which to litigate cases and redress grievances. The new 

courthouse that is currently planned will allow them to do so. I commend GSA and the court 

for developing a new courthouse plan that can accommodate the needs of the Los Angeles 

community within the funds that have been appropriated for this project and at the same time 

dispose of the vacant Spring Street building and produce a cost savings to the taxpayer. 

I hope that today's proceedings will once and for all put to rest any remaining concerns as we 

move forward to address the needs of the millions of Southern California residents served by 

the U.S. District Court in Los Angeles. 
27 


Insert offset folio 14 here 75572.014

Uniteo 

D(( 20513 

Statement of Chairman Boxer 

House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee's 

Field Hearing on the Los Angeles Courthouse 

August 17,2012 

The new federal courthouse in Los Angeles is needed because the current facility, located at 312 

North Spring Street, poses serious security risks and lacks adequate protections to ensure the 

safety of judges, other court employees, and the public. 

Currently, District Court judges arc split between two courthouses, and a new courthouse will 

allow for the consolidation of the judges in one location and will enable the court to operatc 

more efficicntly. A renovation of the Spring Street facility would be inadequate to address this 

problem. 

The new Los Angeles Courthouse has been authorized by Congress and all necessary funds 

needed for construction have been secured. The current facility poses serious security risks and 

lacks adequate protections to ensure the safety of judges and the public. The existing facility 

also has serious public safety issues, including seismic risks, asbestos. and cmmbling 

infrastructure throughout the building. 

In addition to addressing security and public safety concerns, construction of the new courthouse 

will also create jobs in Los Angeles. Efforts by House Republicans to block the construction of 

this long overdue project hurt local construction workers, prevent the court from operating more 

efficiently. and prolong the public safety risks that exist in the current outdated courthouse. 
28 


Insert offset folio 15 here 75572.015

ANTONIO R. VILLARAIGOSA 

MAYOR 

Statement of Mayor Antonio R. Villaraigosa 

Subcommittee Field Hearing 

Economic Development, Public Buildings and Emergency Management Subcommittee 

los Angeles Courthouse: General Services Administration's Plan 

Roybal Federal Building, los Angeles, CA 

August 17, 2012 

Mr. Chairman: 

J strongly support prompt construction of the new los Angeles federal courthouse. A new 

courthouse wlll increase public safety, improve the downtown cityscape, and create much 

needed jobs. 

Our federal court is among the busiest courts in the nation, serving millions of Southern 

Californians. The new courthouse will be safer for judges, public safety officers, and the public. 

It's time to turn this eyesore into a jewel of downtown Los Angeles, Building a new courthouse 

on this site would contribute to the revitallzation of the downtown civic center area and 

compliment our larger redevelopment goals. 

Building the courthouse would create thousands of jobs over the five-year life of the project. 

More than half of the total expenditures for construction would go straight to paychecks for 

construction-industry workers. In a city with an unemployment rate over 12%, much of it in the 

construction industry, this is exactly what we need. 

Congress has already signed off on funding for the project. It is ready to go. It is time to move 

forward. 

Sincerely, 

a~ 

200 NORTH $;>JUNG STREET. Los ANGElES, CALIfORNIA 90012 

PHONE' (213) 978-0600 0 F,\~; (213) 978-0750 

E"lAIL: MAYOR€!\.ACJT¥.ORG 
29 


Insert offset folio 16 here 75572.016

Los Angeles Area 

Chamber of Commerce 

I·louse Transportation and Intrastructure Committee's 

Subcommittee on Economic Development, Public Buildings and Emergency Management 

"LA Courthouse: GSA's Plan to Spend $400 million To Create Vacant Space." 

August 17,2012 

Gary Toebben, President & CEO of the Los Angeles Area Chamber of Commerce 

On behalf of the Los Angeles Area Chamber of Commerce, I submit the following comments in strong 

support of the construction of a new federal courthouse in Downtown Los Angeles. The Chamber is 

comprised of more than 1,600 member organizations, representing over 700,000 employees in Los Angeles 

County. As a trustee for the current and future welfare of the region, the Los Angeles Area Chamber of 

Commerce champions economic prosperity and quality of life. 

Our federal court is among the busiest in the nation, providing justice to nearly half the residents in 

California. In 2004, the General Services Administration (GSA) cited a rolling S-ycar plan prepared annually 

by the judiciary in calling for the construction of a new courthouse. The S-year plan ranked projects using a 

methodology that assigns an urgency score to each project based on four criteria-the year a courthouse runs 

out of space, the number of judges without courtrooms, security concerns, and operational inefficiencies. 

The Los Angeles Courthouse was ranked as the highest-priority project in the nation on the judiciary's 5-

year plan based on its high urgency score. 

The needs of the Los Angeles court system have not lessened since 2004, in fact they have increased. That 

is why the Chamber was strongly supportive of GSA 's announcement earlier this year that the agency was 

going to begin the process to exchange the historic North Spring Street courthouse in downtown Los 

Angeles for the construction of a new, highly efficient fcderal building on the downtown campus of the new 

Los Angeles courthouse. 

Construction of a new federal building would allow GSA to consolidate thousands of federal employees on a 

central campus and save taxpayers more than $10 million per year in lease costs. This exchange also has the 

potential to save the government $250 million in renovation costs that the old courthouse needs. 

The 3.6 acre site at the corner of First St and Broadway has sat empty for nearly two decades, creating blight 

on the Civic Center of our city while our two existing federal courtholl,es fail to meet the safety and capacity 

required by our jUdiciary. The U.S. Marshals Service has called the old courthouse one of the worst security 

risks in the country. The new 600,000 square foot facility will house 24 courtrooms and 32 judges' chambers 

to accommodate demand and provide justice more quickly. 

As an added benefit to California and Los Angeles, this federal project will create thousands of construction 

jobs and millions in new state revenue over the five-year life of the project. 

For all these reasons, the Los Angeles Chamber strongly supports the immediate construction of a new 

federal courthouse in downtown Los Angeles and we look forward to opening its doors in 2017. 
30 


Insert offset folio 17 here 75572.017

A ' ""-1 " \ 626 Wilshire Btvd /e!ephone2136241213 \ ;;:~ 

Smle 200 facsimile 213624 0858 112:"~.s. 

August 13,2012 

Honorable leffDenham 

Chairman 

Los Angeles CA 90017 wwwccalaorg ~"& "'~:~f 

Subcommittee on Economic Development, 

Public Buildings & Emergency Management 

585 Ford House Office Building 

Washington, D.C. 20515 

Dear Congressman Denham: 

Established in 1924, Central City Association (CCA) is L.A.'s premier business advocacy 

association whose 450 members employ over 350,000 people in the Los Angeles region 

alone. On behalf of CCA, [ offer this letter in support of the construction of the new Los 

Angeles Courthouse. 

The Los Angeles federal court system is among the busiest in the country; yet, the building 

faces security and asbestos-related problems dating back to its construction during the Great 

Depression. Earlier this year, the U.S. General Services Administration announced its intent 

to award a contract to construct the new courthouse. Citing the court's urgent housing and 

security needs, the GSA leveraged the funds previously allocated to the project to begin 

moving this project forward. 

We ask that your Committee move forward with the project. Building this new courthouse to 

include 24 new courtrooms and 32 judges' chambers in 600,000 square feet of space will 

allow for more cases to be heard and prosecuted. Since the GSA does not require additional 

funding for the project, there will not be a need to ask Congress for additional funding. In the 

end, this project will complement existing improvements in the Civic Center community, 

including the recently-completed LAPD headquarters and the $55 million Civic Park, a 16-

acre public space linking the Music Center with City Hall. 

CCA is extremely encouraged by this development, and looks forward to helping shape the 

future form and function of our city's Civic Center. Should you have any questions, please do 

not hesitate to contact my Senior Director of Legislative & Legal Affairs, Anh Nguyen, at 

213-624-1213. 

Thank you for your consideration. 

Regards, 

~v5k:() 

Carol E. Schatz 

President & CEO 
31 


Insert offset folio 18 here 75572.018

LOS ANGELES 

COUNTY BAR 

ASSOCIATION 

RICHARD J. BURDGE JR. 

PreSICP'lt 

PATRICIA EGAN DAEHNKE 

Pre,identflect 

LINDA L CURTIS 

Sell'o' Vice Pre'>Jdertt 

PAUL R. KIESEL 

ViccPre'ilde'lt 

MARGARET P. STEVENS 

Tredsurer 

BRIAN S. CURREY 

AS$!stClr>tllicepceslde"t 

CHRlSnNE C. GOODMAN 

A~,;"{<lj"!tVicePresl[J{'nl 

ERIC A. WEBSER 

immedI2!C' Past Pre~'dent 

SAU.YSUCHL 

!:xC'cutlVcD;"ector 

BRUCE BERRA 

ASSoClate Executive Director! 

Chiefl"'n.:m(,dIOI'iI{('f 

W. CLARK BROWN 

A'>.Son,'te ExecutIVE' Dm.'ctor/ 

General Counsel 

Boord of Trust('es 

FAYARFA 

P. PATRICK ASHOURf 

ROBERTA B. BENNETT 

ORI S. BLUMENFELD 

BRIAN K. CONDON 

DUNCAN W. CRABTREE-IRELAND 

JEFFERY J. OAAR 

ANDREW S. DHADWAL 

DAVID C. EISMAN 

HOWARD S. FREDMAN 

RICHARD 8. GOETZ 

DAVID GURNICK 

JACQUELINE J. HARDING 

ANGELA S. HASKINS 

HARUMIHATA 

LAWRENCE C. HINKLE II 

EVAN A. JENNESS 

SAJAN KA5HYAP 

HELEN s. KIM 

MARK A. KRESSEL 

MICHAEL K. LINDSEY 

MANUEL A. MEDRANO 

JANICE E. MUNOZ 

JUAN A. RAMOS 

DAVID K. REINERT 

DEBORAH C. SAXE 

DONALD P. SCHWEITZER 

BRUCE I. SULTAN 

STEVEN K. YODA 

MAIUNG ADDRESS 

POBox 5';020 

Los Angeles, CA 90055-2020 

August 10,2012 

The Honorable Jeff Denham 

United States House of Representatives 

1605 Longworth House Office Building 

Washington, D.C. 20515-0519 

RE: The Need for a Federal Courthouse in Downtown Los Angeles 

Dear Representative Denham: 

On behalf of the Los Angeles County Bar Association ("LACBA") and its 

more than 21,000 members, I would like to express our strong support for 

the construction of a new courthouse for the United States District Court for 

the Central District of Cali fomi a in downtown Los Angeles. As you know, 

the existing courthouse located at 312 North Spring Street was built as a 

Post Office in the 1930s. It was not designed or built as a courthouse, and it 

lacks basic security features that have been incorporated into courthouses 

around the state and the country for many, many years. To make matters 

worse, its construction does not meet Los Angele County's current building 

codes for earthquake safety in a region known for having earthquakes. 

One of the most significant problems with the existing facility is the lack of 

adequate secure passageways to transport prisoners in and out of the 

courtrooms without exposing them directly to members of the general 

public, jurors, lawyers and court staff. I have personally seen criminal 

defendants escorted through the public hallways by U.S. Marshals. I also 

understand the U.S. Marshals Service recognizes the Spring Street 

Courthouse as one of the worst security risks in the federal system. Yet, the 

Central District is home to one of the largest caseloads in the country. 

At the same time, for at least a dozen years the number of drug-related 

prosecutions and the number of defendants in those cases has· been 

consistently increasing. Those defendants are considered to be dangerous 

and are associated with organizations that our government considers to be 

dangerous. Because of the lack of adequate secure passageways, these 

dangerous prisoners are frequently escorted through public elevators and 

hallways by Marshals putting the public, and potentially the prisoners 

themselves, at unnecessary risk. 
32 


Insert offset folio 19 here 75572.019

The Honorable Jeff Denham 

RE: The Need for a Federal Courthouse in Downtown Los Angeles 

August 10,2012 

Page 2 of2 

However, security is not the only problem with the Spring Street Courthouse that warrants a 

replacement structure. It also suffers from mechanical, operational and safety issues that 

come with an eighty-year-old building. To begin with, it is not ADA compliant, which is a 

sad statement for one of the most significant federal buildings in Southern California. Local 

building safety codes have undergone many revisions since a devastating earthquake in Long 

Beach in the 1930s followed by significant quakes in almost every decade since then. 

Modern construction to address earthquake safety concerns is very different from what it was 

when the Spring Street Courthouse was built. In addition, the infrastructure (HV AC, 

electrical, elevators) is outdated requiring costly maintenance, upgrades or replacement to 

address inadequate air quality and temperature control systems, insufficient electrical power, 

other operational deficiencies. Because there still is considerable asbestos material in the 

building, corrective measures are either impossible or prohibitively expensive. 

Many of LACBA's members regularly appear in the Spring Street Courthouse, and these 

issues are serious concerns for them as users of the facility. In addition, one of LACBA's 

missions is to serve the public in promoting access to justice and improving the justice 

system, and the current safety and security risks are barriers to access creating serious 

concerns for our members. For those reasons, and others that have been well documented 

over the years, LACBA strongly urges construction of the new courthouse in downtown Los 

Angeles to provide a safe and secure facility for the Court and the public who must use it. 

Sincerely, 

Richard 

k~ J. Burdge, Jr. 

President 
33 


Insert offset folio 20 here 75572.020

Evan A. Jenness 

evan@jennesslaw.com 

The Honorable Jeff Denham 

United States House of Representatives 

1605 Longworth House Office Building 

Washington, D.C. 20S15-0519 

LosANGELES~TER 

of the 

FEDERAL BAR AsSOCIATION 

August 9, 2012 

Re; Support for Construction of New Downtown los Angeles Federal Courthouse 

Dear Representative Denham: 

I am writing on behalf of the Los Angeles Chapter of the Federal Bar Association to voice its 

support for the construction of a new federal courthouse for the United States District Court, 

Central District of California, in downtown Los Angeles. The new courthouse is necessary to 

address long-standing and deep-seated security, safety, and operational deficiencies in the 

existing courthouse located at 312 North Spring Street which will only become more 

problematic as the courthouse continues to age. 

As frequent visitors to the Spring Street Courthouse, one of our gravest and most immediate 

concerns arises from the fact that the courthouse has been recognized as being among the 

worst security risks in the nation by the U.S. Marshals Service. Many serious security issues 

exist which endanger the safety of the public, jurors, the judges, and Court employees, 

especially in this era of ever-increasing threats to security. The courthouse is the site of many 

hearings and trials in high-threat, complex, multi-defendant criminal cases, which increases the 

gravity of the numerous security concerns that have been documented by the U.S. Marshals 

Service. As is readily apparent to visitors to the courthouse, the configuration of the building 

often requires potentially dangerous criminal defendants to be transported in public elevators 

and through public corridors, putting the public, jurors, and Court employees at risk. Judges are 

also at risk, since prisoners must be loaded and offloaded in, and brought through, the judges' 

parking area, enabling the prisoners to see the judges' cars and license plates and increaSing 

the possibility of an encounter. u.s. Marshals Service personnel and in-custody defendants are 

also endangered, as the pathway from the central cellblock to 12 of the courtrooms is 

circuitous and proceeds through extremely narrow corridors and staircases with many blind 

spots. Because of the danger posed by escorting large numbers of prisoners who are shackled 

together through this pathway, prisoners are often moved to these courtrooms using public 

elevators and public corridors, increasing the risk to the public, jurors, and Court employees. 
34 


Insert offset folio 21 here 75572.021

The Honorable Jeff Denham 

August 9, 2012 

Page 2 

In addition to these security concerns, the Spring Street Courthouse is plagued by numerous 

safety and operational deficiencies due to the building's age and the outdated assumptions on 

which it was designed and built. The Spring Street Courthouse was constructed in the late 

1930's before modern building codes and earthquake mitigation technologies, raising serious 

concerns about its seismic stability and putting it at risk in earthquake-prone Southern 

California. The courthouse also lacks handicapped ramp access to the Main Street entrance, 

making the most convenient and heavily used entrance inaccessible to those in wheelchairs. 

The existing infrastructure does not accommodate, and is not easily adapted to, modern-day 

technology needs, and the building systems (i.e., electrical, HVAC, and elevators) require 

upgrades or replacement in order to address the insufficient electrical power, air quality and 

temperature-control issues, and recurring systems malfunctions. Making matters even more 

complicated and costly, correcting these deficiencies is often hindered and sometimes 

prevented outright by the presence of asbestos throughout the building and the courthouse's 

historic status. 

In light of these reasons and others which have been documented, the Los Angeles Chapter of 

the Federal Bar Association recognizes the need for a new federal courthouse to replace the 

aging and obsolescent Spring Street Courthouse. In addition to benefitting those members of 

the bar who regularly appear before the Court, a new federal courthouse will address the 

Court's and the public's need for a secure, safe, and fully functional courthouse in downtown 

Los Angeles. 

Sincerely, 

EVAN A. JENNESS 

FBA-LA, President-Elect 

cc: Victor Castillo, legislative Director, Office of Representative Lucille Roybal-Allard 

EAJ/dfm 

210 N. Glenoaks Blvd., Ste. C, Butbank, CA 91502 

email fbala@emaoffice.com 

ph 818.843.1020 

www.fbala.org 

fax 818.843.7423 
35 


Insert offset folio 22 here 75572.022

ROBBIE IIL',VTEII 

Px€Culiv(' .. \'ecntary 

Los Angeles I Orange Counties 

Building and Construction 

Trades Council 

Af/iliated with the Buildillg & COlHtruCtiOIl Tradt'~ Dept .. AFIA:/O 

Honorable Jeff Denham 

Chairman 

Subcommittee on Economic Development 

Public Buildings & Emergency Management 

585 Ford House Office Building 

Washington DC 20515 

August 14,2012 

Dear Mr. Chairman: 

1626 Beverly Botl.lemrd 

Los .4.ngeles. CA 90026-5784 

Phone (113) -183-4222 

(714) 827.6791 

f'ax(lIJ) -183· .. /.1/9 

I am the Executive Secretary of the Los AngelesiOrange Counties Building and Construction Trades 

CounciL We represent 140,000 construction workers from 14 Trades in 52 affiliated local unions, aU of 

whom, when working, are employed by private contractors. 

These companies are awarded projects based on being the lowest bidder, using the highest-skilled, besttrained workforce, utilizing the least amount of workers completing a project in the shortest amount of 

time, doing it once and doing it right. It is only through bidding with these criteria that a company can be 

successful and bid repeatedly on public works projects. 

I am writing to express our strong support for the prompt construction of the planned federal courthouse 

for the Central District of California in Los Angeles. When completed, the project will increase public 

safety, improve downtown and create much-needed jobs. 

The existing courthouse is a 1930s building that is not built to today's seismic standards for an active 

earthquake zone such as Los Angeles. It is not able to serve residents, officials, judges and staff. 

Due to today's economy, there exists excess capacity within the construction industry in this area. This 

has led to a very competitive market, with some of the lowest prices seen in construction in decades. For 

example, as reported in a recent "Los Angeles Business Journal" article, there has been a cost savings of 

$1 billion at Los Angeles Airport due to the competitive bidding. 

This is an excellent opportunity for the federal government to take advantage of the same market forces, 

and fulfill its mission to serve the public and our justice system. 

We urge you to move this project forward with all consideration for these priorities. 

Sincerely, " 

!1 11// ! 7. ~- 1 (qt:;..r:""1--<~ / L h L/-----' 

Robbie Hunter 

Executive Secretary 
36 


Insert offset folio 23 here 75572.023

Syrinffer Pitt~rs Lowr 709 

P,ffiliatecf with p''F DOO 

August 14,2012 

Honorable Jeff Denham, Chairman 

Subcommittee on Economic Development 

Public Buildings & Emergency Management 

585 Ford House Office Building 

Washington DC 20515 

Dear Mr. Chairman: 

I am the Business Manager of Sprinkler Fitters U,A. Local 709. We represent skilled fire sprinkler fitters, 

all of whom, when working, arc employed by private contractors. 

These companies are awarded projects based on being the lowest bidder, using the highest-skilled, besttrained workforce, utilizing the least amount of workers completing a project in the shortest amount of 

time, doing it once and doing it right. It is only through bidding with these criteria that a company can be 

successful and bid repeatedly on public works projects. 

I am writing to express our strong support for the prompt construction of the planned federal c~urthouse 

for the Central District of California in Los Angeles. When completed, the project will increase public 

safety, improve downtown and create much-needed jobs. 

The existing courthouse is a 1930s building that is not built to today's seismic standards for an active 

earthquake zone such as Los Angeles. It cannot serve residents, officials, judges and staff 

Due to today's economy, there exists excess capacity within the construction industry in this area. This 

has led to a very competitive market, with some of the lowest prices seen in construction in decades. For 

example, as reported in a recent "Los Angeles Business Journal" article, there has been a cost savings of 

$1 billion at Los Angeles Airport due to competitive bidding. 

This is an excellent opportunity for the federal government to take advantage of the same market forces, 

and fulfill its mission to serve the public and our justice system. 

We urge you to move this pr~ject forward with all consideration for these priorities. 

Sincerely, 

Michael P. Huerta 

Business Manager, U.A. Local 709 

Jc!OPEIU Local #537 AFt-CiO, eLC 

12140 RIVERA ROAD * WlIlTJ'lER, CALlfURNIA Y0606 

TEL: (562) 698-9909 * FAX: (562) 698-7255 
37 


Insert offset folio 24 here 75572.024

GAO 

For Release on Delivery . Expected at moo a.m. PDT Friday, August 17, 2012 

GAO-12-968T 

United States Government Accountability Office 

Testimony 

Before the Subcommittee on Economic 

Development, Public Buildings, and Emergency 

Management, Committee on Transportation and 

Infrastructure, House of Representatives 

L.A. COURTHOUSE 

Initial Project Justification 

Is Outdated and Flawed 

Statement of Mark 1. Goldstein, Director 

Physical Infrastructure Issues 

GAO 

AccountabiUty * Integrity * Reliability 
38 


Insert offset folio 25 here 75572.025

6Ac"u2my~2R'_'ny 

---6!!--- Hi """li 5!!--- ,..,~ts Highlights of GA0-12-968T, a testimony 

before the Subcommittee on Economic 

Development, Public Buildings, and 

Emergency Management. Committee on 

Transportation and Infrastructure, House of 

Representatives 

Why GAO Did This Study 

The federal judiciary and the GSA are 

in the midst of a muttibillion-dollar 

courthouse construction initiative. In 

2010, GAO found that more than a 

quarter of the new courthouse space 

was unneeded, costing $835 million to 

construct and $51 million annually to 

rent, operate, and maintain. 

As part of this initiative, construction 

has not yet begun on the L.A. 

courthouse project that was proposed 

to address perceived space, 

operational, and security deficits in Los 

Angeles, California. Specifically, the 

L.A. Court is spm between two different 

buildings-the Roybal and Spring 

Street Courthouses-causing security 

and operational problems. Congress 

has appropriated about $400 million for 

the L.A. courthouse project. For this 

testimony, GAO was asked to review 

the L.A. Courthouse project and (1) 

explain its history and status, (2) 

determine the extent to which 

previously identified challenges related 

to courthouse construction apply to the 

project, and (3) determine if the 

analysis that made it the highest 

priority construction project still applies. 

This testimony is based primarily on 

GAO's prior work on federal 

courthouses, for which GAO analyzed 

courthouse planning and use data, 

visited key sites in Los Angeles and 

other locations, modeled CQurtroomsharing scenarios, and interviewed 

judges and GSA officials. This 

information was updated through GSA 

and judiciary documents and 

interviews. GSA and judiciary provided 

technical comments on GAO's updated 

work. 

View GAO-12-968T. For more information, 

contact Mark L Goldstein at (202) 512-2834 

or goldsteinm@gao.gov. 

6tttfiMifW.I.IP 

L.A. COURTHOUSE 

Initial Project Justification Is Outdated and Flawed 

What GAO Found 

Because of delays and cost increases, the General Services Administration 

(GSA) canceled the authorized 41-courtroom Los Angeles (LA.), California, 

courthouse project in 2006. Since then, GSA and the judiciary have been slow to 

agree upon how to proceed with the project, for which about $366 million in 

appropriated funds remains available. In 2012, with the judiciary's support, GSA 

issued a request for proposal for contractors to design and build a 24-courtoom, 

32-chamber courthouse, which would be used in conjunction with 25 existing 

courtrooms in the Roybal Courthouse. However, this new plan will not address 

one of the principal justifications for the original project-that the LA Court be 

centralized at one site. Instead, it would increase the distance between the 

Roybal Courthouse and the planned second ceurt location and the distance to 

the federal detention center from which prisoners must be transported. 

Each of the challenges leading to extra space-and the associated extra costsin courthouses that GAO identified in 2010 apply to the LA courthouse project. 

First, the initial design of the LA courthouse project exceeded the 

congressionally authorized size by 13 courtrooms and over 260,000 square feet. 

Second, 16 fewer judges are located in Los Angeles than were originally 

projected, a change that calls into question the space assumptions that the 

original proposals were based on. Third, officials did not fully take into 

consideration the advantages of courtroom sharing, again planning more 

courtrooms than necessary. According to the courtroom sharing model that GAO 

developed for a 2010 report using the judiciary's courtroom usage data, the 45 

current district judges in Los Angeles would need 25 courtrooms to adequately 

address all scheduled courtroom time-roughly half of the 49 courtrooms 

currently planned. 

It is not clear if the LA. project remains a high priority. The judiciary chose not to 

reassess the LA project under a new priOritization process it began 

implementing in 2009. The process was changed to address concerns about the 

growing cest of courthouse projects and incorporate industry standards and best 

practices. However, there is evidence that the LA project justification from the 

old process is outdated and flawed based on the amount of space needed and 

the security assessment. Two high-priority projects that were reassessed under 

the new system were subsequently removed from the list. GAO is currently 

studying the judiciary's new prioritization process as it relates to projects 

currently on the judiciary's 5-year plan for this subcommittee and will continue to 

review these issues as part of that work. 

_____________ United States Government Accountability Office 
39 


Insert offset folio 26 here 75572.026

Chairman Denham, Ranking Member Norton, and Members of the 

Subcommittee: 

I am pleased to be here to discuss our recent work on federal courthouse 

construction issues and on the Los Angeles (L.A.) courthouse in 

particular. Since the early 1990s, the General Services Administration 

(GSA) and the federal judiciary Oudiciary) have undertaken a multibilliondollar courthouse construction initiative. According to GSA, that initiative 

has resulted in 76 new courthouses or annexes, and 18 additional 

courthouses in various stages of development. However, in 2010, we 

reported that more than a quarter of new courthouse space-then costing 

$835 million to construct and $51 million annually to operate-was 

unneeded. ' We found the new extra courthouse space was the result of 

poor oversight and planning. Meanwhile, construction has not yet begun 

on the L.A. courthouse project, ranked by the judiciary as its top priority 

for construction since fiscal year 2000. 

For this testimony, we were asked to (1) explain the history and current 

status of the L.A. courthouse project, (2) determine the extent to which 

previously identified planning issues related to overall courthouse 

construction specifically apply to the L.A. courthouse, and (3) determine 

whether the analysis that made the L.A. courthouse the judiciary's highest 

priority courthouse construction project still applies. This testimony is 

based primarily on our prior work on federal courthouses, 2 for which we 

analyzed courthouse planning and data; reviewed relevant laws, 

regulations, and project planning and budget documents; visited 

courthouse sites in Los Angeles and other locations; analyzed selected 

courthouses as case studies; modeled courtroom-sharing scenarios; 

contracted with the National Academy of Sciences to convene a panel of 

1GAO, Federal Courthouse Construction: Better Planning, Oversight, and Courlroom 

Sharing Needed to Address Future Costs, GAO-1 0-417 (Washington, D. C.: 

June 21, 2010). 

2See GAO, Federal Courthouse Construction: Nationwide Space and Cost Issues Are 

Applicable to L.A. Courthouse Project, GAO-12-206T (Washington, D.C.: November 4, 

2011); GAO, Federal Courthouse Construction: BetterPlanning, Oversight, and 

Courtroom Sharing Needed to Address Future Costs, GAO-10-417 (Washington, D.C.: 

June 21,2010); GAO, Federal Courthouse Construction: Estimated Costs to House the 

L.A. District Court Have Tripled and There Is No Consensus on How to Proceed, 

GAO-OS-S89 (Washington, D.C.: Sept. 12, 2008); GAO, Federal Courthouses: Rent 

Increases Due to New Space and Growing Energy and Security Costs Require Better 

Tracking and Management, GAO-06-613 (Washington, D.C.: June 20,2006). 

Page 1 GAO-12-968T 
40 


Insert offset folio 27 here 75572.027

Background 

judicial experts; conducted structured interviews with district and 

magistrate judges about the challenges and opportunities related to 

courtroom sharing; analyzed nationwide judiciary rent data generated 

from GSA's billing system; and interviewed judges, GSA officials, and 

other relevant stakeholders. Information was updated though GSA and 

judiciary documents and interviews. To determine whether the judiciary's 

prioritization of the L.A. courthouse project still applies, we reviewed 

judiciary planning documents and interviewed judiciary officials. Our prior 

work was conducted from June 2004 through June 2010, and our 

additional work was conducted during July and August 2012. GSA and 

judiciary provided technical comments to our additional work. All of our 

work was conducted in accordance with generally accepted government 

auditing standards. More detail on our scope and methodology is 

available in the full reports on which this testimony is based. 

The judiciary uses a 5-year plan to define its priorities for courthouse 

construction. From fiscal year 1996 through 2008, the judiciary used a 

process to prioritize and score projects for inclusion in this plan based on 

1. caseload and estimated growth in the number of judges and staff, 

2. security concerns, and 

3. any operational inefficiencies that may exist with the current facilities. 

GSA uses the judiciary's plan to develop construction proposals and cost 

estimates for congressional authorizations and appropriations. 3 In 2009, 

the judiciary began applying a new process for prioritizing courthouse 

projects that will apply to future 5-year plans. Judiciary officials said that 

the new process was developed in part to address concerns about 

growing costs and incorporate industry standards and best practices. The 

judiciary is currently evaluating its 94 federal judicial districts and 11 

courts of appeal under the new process. We are reviewing this new 

process as part of an ongoing engagement for this subcommittee. 

Under the old prioritization process, the judiciary had identified the L.A. 

courthouse project as high-priority for several reasons. The federal court 

in downtown Los Angeles (L.A. Court) is split between two buildings-the 

3For purposes of this testimony, we refer to approval of these projects or prospectuses by 

the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works and the House Committee on 

Transportation and Infrastructure as "congressionally authorized." See 40 U.S.C. § 3307. 

Page 2 GAO-12-9GBT 
41 


Insert offset folio 28 here 75572.028

United States Courthouse on North Spring Street (Spring Street 

Courthouse) built in 1938 and the Edward R. Roybal Federal Building and 

United States Courthouse (Roybal Courthouse) built in 1992. The Spring 

Street Courthouse consists of 32 courtrooms-11 of which do not meet 

the judiciary's minimum design standards for size. 4 The Roybal 

Courthouse consists of 34 courtrooms (10 district, 6 magistrate, and 18 

bankruptcy). (See fig. 1.) 

Figure 1: u.s. District Courthouses In Los Angel •• 

~GAO. 

Spring Stroot Courthouse, opened in 1938 (765,000 SqUBro feet) 

SooI'l:a.GAO. 

Roybal Courthouse, opened in 1992 (1.2 million square feet) 

4The judiciary considers three of the courtrooms in the Spring Street Courthouse to be 

hearing rooms and not courtrooms. 

Page 3 GAO·12·968T 
42 


Insert offset folio 29 here 75572.029

In 1996, the judiciary concluded that having the L.A. Court split between 

two courthouses created security and operational problems, that the 

judiciary needed additional space in downtown Los Angeles, and that the 

Spring Street Courthouse had obsolete building systems and poor 

security conditions. One of the security challenges created by the split 

court is that prisoners must be transported from the Metropolitan 

Detention Center along surface streets to the Spring Street Courthouse. 

The Roybal Courthouse, however, is connected to the detention center by 

a secure tunnel. 

In fiscal year 2000, the judiciary requested and GSA proposed building a 

new courthouse in downtown Los Angeles. From fiscal year 2001 through 

fiscal year 2005, Congress made three appropriations for a new L.A. 

courthouse, to remain available until expended. 

In fiscal year 2001, Congress authorized $35.25 million and later 

provided funding to acquire a site for and design a 41-courtroom, 

1,016,300-square-foot building based on a GSA prospectus.' 

In fiscal year 2004, Congress also appropriated $50 million to 

construct a new LA courthouse. 

In fiscal year 2005, Congress appropriated an additional $314.4 

million. 

As we reported in 2008, GSA spent $16.3 million designing a new 

courthouse for the L.A. Court and $16.9 million acquiring and preparing a 

new site for it in downtown Los Angeles, leaving about $366.45 million 

available for the construction of a 41-courtroom courthouse. 

5Th is authorized funding amount refers to a GSA reported amount in its courthouse 

project funding data. The $35.25 million amount reflects the amount approved by the 

House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure in July 2000 and is less than the 

$36.20 million approved by the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works also 

approved in July 2000. 

Page 4 GAO·12·968T 
43 


Insert offset folio 30 here 75572.030

L.A. Courthouse 

Project Was 

Repeatedly Delayed 

and Estimated Costs 

Increased 

As we first reported in 2008, the LA courthouse project remains un-built 

because of delays and cost increases. The project was delayed in part 

because GSA decided to design a 54-courtroom, 1,279,650-square-foot 

building based on a request from the judiciary, instead of designing the 

congressionally authorized 41-courtroom, 1,016,300-square-foot 

courthouse. GSA completed the proposal for the 54-courtroom design in 

2003, but the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) rejected the 

proposal and did not include it in the President's budget request for fiscal 

year 2005. GSA then designed a 41-courtroom building-the originally 

authorized Size-but by the time that design was completed, the schedule 

for constructing the building had been delayed by 2 years, according to a 

senior GSA official involved with the project. With this delay, inflation then 

pushed the project's cost over budget, forcing GSA to further reduce the 

scope of the project in order to construct it within the authorized and 

appropriated amounts. However, the cycle continued as GSA and L.A. 

Court officials were slow to reduce the project's scope, causing additional 

delays, which in turn necessitated additional reductions. For example, 

GSA did not simplify the building-high atrium that was initially envisioned 

for the new courthouse until January 2006, even though the judiciary had 

repeatedly expressed concerns about the construction and maintenance 

costs of the atrium since 2002. As a result, cost estimates for the project 

tripled to over $1.1 billion, and GSA ultimately cancelled the 41-courtroom 

L.A. courthouse project in 2006. 

Since 2006, GSA and the judiciary were slow to agree upon how to 

proceed with the L.A. courthouse project for which appropriated funds still 

remain available. As we reported in 2008, the judiciary supported a 

scaled-back option that included constructing a new 36-courtroom, 45-

chamber courthouse and returning the Spring Street Courthouse to GSA 

for other uses. GSA also considered two less costly options, such as 

simply continuing to house the LA Court in both the Roybal and Spring 

Street Courthouse locations. In 2012, with the judiciary's support, GSA 

issued a request for proposal for contractors to design and build a 

600,000 square-foot courthouse with 24 courtrooms and 32 chambers, 

which would be used in conjunction with 25 of the existing courtrooms in 

the Roybal Courthouse. However, this new plan will not address one of 

the principal justifications for the original project-that the L.A. Court be 

centralized at one site. Instead, it will increase the distance between the 

Roybal Courthouse and the planned second court location as well as the 

distance to the Metropolitan Detention Center from where prisoners must 

be transported. 

Page 5 GAO·12·96BT 
44 


Insert offset folio 31 here 75572.031

Planning Issues GAO 

Previously Identified 

that Cause Extra 

Space in Courthouses 

Also Apply to the L.A. 

Courthouse Project 

The three causes of extra space in courthouses-and the associated 

extra cost-that we identified in 2010 also apply to the L.A. courthouse 

project. These include: 

1. exceeding the congressionally authorized size, 

2. overestimating the number of judges a courthouse would have, and 

3. not planning for courtroom sharing among judges. 

First, as previously mentioned, the initial design of the L.A. courthouse 

exceeded the congressionally authorized size by 13 courtrooms and more 

than 260,000 square feet. In addition, we found in 2010 that large 

atriums-like the one in the L.A. courthouse design-contributed to size 

overages in several courthouses completed since 2000. Because the 

courthouse design exceeded the congressionally authorized size, this led 

to delays that contributed to the tripling of estimated costs and to GSA's 

ultimately canceling the project in 2006. 

Second, judiciary overestimated how many judges the L.A. Court would 

need and therefore designed a courthouse with more courtrooms than 

necessary. Specifically, we reported in 2004 that the proposed L.A. 

courthouse was designed to include courtrooms for 61 judges-the 47 

existing district and magistrate judges and 14 additional judges expected 

authorized or appointed by 2011. However, in 2012, rather than having an 

additional 14 judges, the LA Court has just 45 district and magistrate 

judges-2 fewer than we reported in 2004.· This outcome calls into 

question the assumptions made in the original proposals. 

Third, judiciary did not fully take advantage of courtroom sharing by 

judges, which fed to building more courtrooms than necessary. OUf 2010 

analysis indicated that the judiciary could reduce the number of 

courtrooms it needs by having judges share courtrooms. Table 1 

illustrates the basic courtroom sharing that is possible based on 

judiciary's courtroom usage data. 

• According to the judiciary, the LA Court currently has 30 authorized district judgeships 

including 2 vacancies, plus 17 magistrate judgeships. 

PageS GAO-12-968T 
45 


Insert offset folio 32 here 75572.032

It Is Unclear Whether 

the L.A. Courthouse 

Project Remains a 

High Priority Project 

Table 1: Courtroom·Sharing Possibilities Based on GAO Model and Analysis 

Judge. Dedicated courtrooms needed 

3 district judges 2 district courtrooms 

3 senior judges 1 district courtroom 

1 district and 1 senior judge 1 district courtroom 

2 magistrate judges 1 magistrate courtroom 

Source.. GAO. 

According to GSA in November 2011, the new plan would bring the total 

number of district courtrooms in Los Angeles to 49, even though there are 

only 45 district judges currently located and working in Los Angeles. 

Applying the courtroom-sharing model that we developed, the 45 current 

district judges would need 25 courtrooms to adequately address all 

scheduled courtroom time-the number of district courtrooms that GSA 

currently has planned for the Roybal Courthouse. Even this model would 

leave the courtrooms unused much of the time, since 60 percent of 

scheduled court events are canceled or postponed within one week of the 

event's original date. Additional efficiencies might also be realized if the 

L.A. Court's judges were to use a centralized courtroom scheduling 

system. 

Judiciary officials said the judiciary has not applied its new process for 

prioritizing projects to the L.A. courthouse project because it was 

grandfathered under the old process and, like 10 of the 12 courthouses 

on the current 5-year plan for construction, will not be reevaluated under 

the new process. However, if the L. A. courthouse project were 

reevaluated, it is not clear that it would retain the same high priority status 

from when it was first justified in 2000. 

Judiciary's projected increase in judges has not occurred. As we 

mentioned previously, none of the 14 additional judges expected by 

2011 have been authorized or appointed. In fact, the L.A. Court has 2 

fewer judges than we reported in 2004. This suggests that the 

previous space projections are currently outdated. 

The original security assessment did not include the Roybal 

Courthouse. The security score under the old prioritization process 

indicated that the L.A. Court lacked proper circulation routes for 

prisoners, but this problem does not apply to the Roybal Courthouse, 

a key court location being considered for continued use. 

Page 7 GAO·12·968T 
46 


Insert offset folio 33 here 75572.033

Contact Information 

{543311} 

The old prioritization process did not consider the potential for 

reducing the number of needed courtrooms by having judges share 

courtrooms. 

Other potential construction projects that were also rated high priority 

in 2012 under the original prioritization process have been 

reevaluated and have subsequently dropped in priority. Specifically, 

the judiciary applied its new prioritization process to two of the 

courtrooms on the list of projects in its 2010 5-year plan-San Jose, 

California, and Greenbelt, Maryland-and decided to remove both of 

them from the high-priority, 5-year construction plan. Formerly among 

the top 12 most urgent courthouse projects, the San Jose project now 

ranks 79th and the Greenbelt project now ranks 91 st among potential 

courthouse projects. 

In conclusion, the L.A. courthouse construction project has been 

repeatedly delayed and costs have increased for more than a decade. 

The current plan to build a new 24-courtroom courthouse would provide 

more courtrooms than are needed and will not solve the problem of a split 

court posed by two separate buildings-one of the key justifications for 

the project. We are currently studying the judiciary's new prioritization 

process as it relates to projects currently on the judiciary's 5-year plan for 

this subcommittee and will continue to review these issues as part of our 

ongoing work. Chairman Denham, Ranking Member Norton, and 

Members of the Subcommittee, this concludes our testimony. I would be 

pleased to answer any questions you might have at this time. 

For further information on this testimony, please contact Mark L. 

Goldstein, (202) 512-2834 or bye-mail at goldsteinm@gao.gov. Contact 

points for our Offices of Congressional Relations and Public Affairs may 

be found on the last page of this statement. Individuals making key 

contributions to this testimony include Keith Cunningham (Assistant 

Director), George Depaoli, James Leonard, and Amy Rosewarne. 

Page 8 GAO·12·968T 
47 


Insert offset folio 34 here 75572.034

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48 


Insert offset folio 35 here 75572.035

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49 


Insert offset folio 36 here 75572.036

U.S. General Services 

Administration 

Kevin Richards 

Acting Regional Commissioner 

Pacific Rim Region 

Public Buildings Service 

Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure 

Subcommittee on Economic Development, Public Buildings, and 

Emergency Management 

"los Angeles Courthouse" 

August 17, 2012 
50 


Insert offset folio 37 here 75572.037

Good morning Chairman Mica and Chairman Denham. My name is Kevin Richards, 

and I am the Acting Regional Commissioner for the U.S. General Services 

Administration's (GSA) Public Buildings Service (PBS) Pacific Rim Region. 

I appreciate the opportunity to join you here today at the Los Angeles Courthouse 

complex where GSA, at Congress's direction and with existing appropriations, is moving 

forward to construct a Courthouse to meet the Courts' number one priority for new 

construction. This long-delayed project is proceeding in an efficient manner, with a 

significantly reduced scope from what was originally planned and at a size that meets 

the Courts' new sharing requirements for Judges. 

At the same time, and in line with Administration goals to better utilize real estate, GSA 

intends to dispose of the outdated historic Courthouse at 312 North Spring Street. The 

plan is to do this through an exchange, and in return, receive a new and efficient 

Federal building that wiff save taxpayers money by eliminating costly leases. 

The New Los Angeles Courthouse - . 

GSA is pursuing the construction of a new and efficient Courthouse in Los Angeles to 

meet the Courts' needs. Due to security deficiencies in the existing building and 

courtrooms that do not meet the Courts' space needs or functional requirements, the 

Los Angeles Courthouse is the Courts' number one priority for new construction. 

Between FY2001 - FY2005, the project received appropriations and was fully 

authorized, but for a variety of reasons, including scope and cost, was unable to move 

forward. 

Congress made clear on several occasions during the life of the Los Angeles 

Courthouse project that GSA should work with the Courts to develop a viable solution 

for the project within the funding already appropriated. House report language 

accompanying the FY2009 Appropriations biff noted that "GSA is prohibited from using 

funds previously appropriated for the courthouse in Los Angeles for any other project. 

The GSA is further prohibited from using any proceeds from the sale of the land for this 

project, if one were to occur, on any other project." Congress has also relayed its 

concern about the lack of progress in constructing a new courthouse in Los Angeles as 

evidenced by the FY 2010 Senate Appropriations Committee report that directed GSA 

to work with the Judiciary in "developing a cost-effective design that would not require 

splitting of the District Court." Language in the FY 2011 Senate Committee report and 

the FY 2012 House markup further stressed the interest in the project. Support was 

also provided by 19 Members of the California delegation, who sent a letter to GSA in 

21Page 
51 


Insert offset folio 38 here 75572.038

October of 2011· urging GSA to "proceed immediately" with construction of a new 

Federal Courthouse to meet the Courts' needs. 

In November 2011, the Courts and GSA announced a plan to deliver this critical facility 

within the current appropriation and authorization, eliminating future projected 

judgeships from the requirements and incorporating courtroom sharing policies. 

Originally planned for 41 courtrooms and nearly 1 million gross square feet, the project 

has been down-sized to 24 courtrooms and between 600 and 650 thousand gross 

square feet. 

Since that announcement, GSA has been proceeding with a two-phase solicitation to 

select a firm to design and construct the new Courthouse. On February 6,2012, GSA 

issued a Request for Qualifications, which was used to establish a short list of four 

highly-qualified firms. These four firms have been asked to provide detailed design 

proposals as part of a Request for Proposals and an award is expected later this 

calendar year, with completion and occupancy in the second qUarter of Fiscal Year 

2016. 

The project will allow a more effective use of space, consolidating the Court functions 

currently housed in 312 North Spring Street and the Roybal building to the new 

Courthouse. The District Court will fully occupy the new courthouse, as well as the 

District Clerk and the accompanying U. S. Marshals Service. A number of senior district 

judges, the magistrate judges, as well as Pretrial Services and Probation, will 

consolidate in the Roybal building with the Bankruptcy Court. These two buildings will 

meet the security needs and functional requirements of the Courts, while satisfying the 

updated court requirements. 

This will allow GSA to improve the security of the Los Angeles Federal District Court 

and meet the functional needs of the Court, taking advantage of an unfortunate 

downturn in the market to deliver the project within the current appropriation. 

Disposal of 312 North Spring StreetThe consolidation of the Judiciary in the new Courthouse and the Roybal Building, 

however, will result in a large vacancy at the historic Courthouse at 312 North Spring 

Street. This circa-1930s building does not meet current seismic, fire safety, or security 

requirements. 

31Page 
52 


Insert offset folio 39 here 75572.039

Given the Administration's strong push to aggressively dispose of unneeded property, 

on June 22, 2012, GSA announced we would begin pursuing an exchange of the 

property. In return for the 312 North Spring Street Courthouse, a private-sector partner 

will be asked to provide a new, highly efficient Federal building to accompany the new 

Courthouse at the site bounded by 1 s! Street, Hall, and Broadway. This new building 

would allow GSA to backfill Federal tenants into this newly constructed Federal building 

and out of costly leased space, saving taxpayers millions in annual rent payments per 

year. 

Since the announcement of the exchange, GSA has been conducting due diligence on 

the property; and will begin the Section 106 historic consultation process shortly. This 

process will determine what a developer will be allowed to do with the property, thus 

affecting its value. We are already working with potential tenants to develop a program 

of requirements for the new Federal building and, after completing the required due 

diligence, will engage the private sector to solicit proposals. 

Better Utilizing Federal Real Estate -

As noted, this disposal through exchange is consistent with the Administration's goals to 

better utilize real estate. In June 2010, the President issued a Memorandum entitled 

"Disposing of Unneeded Federal Real Estate," which charged civilian agencies to utilize 

space, reduce operating costs,and dispose of unneeded real property more effectively 

to save $3 billion by the end of 2012. GSA has saved more than $300 million as part of 

the $3 billiongoal outlined in the June 2010 Presidential Memorandum. 

Most recently, Acting OMS Director Jeffrey Zients issued a May 11,2012, 

memorandum, entitled "Promoting Effici~nt Spending to Support Agency Operations," 

which stated, among other things, that agencies may not increase the size of their 

civilian real estate inventory. Any increase in an agency's total square footage of 

civilian inventory must be offset through consolidation, co-location, or disposal of space. 

These initiatives are improving the Federal Government's management of real estate, 

ensuring that agency decisions are made in a cost-effective way, and saving taxpayers 

money. GSA is doing its part to meet these goals. The disposal by exchange of 312 

North Spring Street will ensure taxpayers do not pay for an unneeded building. 

4fPage 
53 


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Conclusion 

GSA and the Courts are well underway in moving forward with the plan to complete the 

new Courthouse in Los Angeles within the current appropriation to help the Courts meet 

their mission needs, with an award expected later this year. Los Angeles will have a 

secure, state-of-the-art Courthouse, helping improve court functions and services, while 

keeping tenants and the visiting public safe. Additionally, we look forward to the 

disposal through exchange of the historic Courthouse at 312 North Spring Street, 

allowing for backfill of costly leases and avoidance of ongoing maintenance and 

renovation costs. Both actions will result in a more efficient real estate footprint in the 

Los Angeles area. 

I welcome the opportunity to be here and I am happy to answer any questions. 

SIPage 
54 


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Statement of 

The Honorable Margaret M. Morrow 

District Judge 

United States District Court 

Central District of California 

for the hearing ofthe 

Subcommittee on Economic Development, 

Public Buildings and Emergency Management 

Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure 

United States House of Representatives 

entitled 

"LA Courthouse: GSA's Plan to Spend $400 Million to Create Vacant Space" 

Los Angeles, California 

August 17, 2012 

Thank you for the opportunity to submit written testimony regarding the Los Angeles 

Courthouse project, the Judiciary's number one courthouse construction priority. I am a District 

Judge of the United States District Court for the Central District of California, resident in Los 

Angeles. I regret that I am unable to appear in person at the hearing of the Subcommittee; I have a 

previous commitment on the cast coast that could not be changed. I would, of course, bc happy to 

respond in writing to any questions the Subcommittee may have following the hearing. 

The Central District of California is one of the largest and busiest courts in the nation. The 

court in Los Angeles currently operates in two buildings: the Depression-era courthouse located at 

312 North Spring Street (Spring Street), and the Edward R. Roybal Federal Building and Courthouse 

(Roybal Building), which also houses other federal tenants, at 255 East Temple Street. Over the past 

two years, the Judiciary has worked closely with the General Services Administration (GSA) to 

develop a plan for a ftmctional and cost-effective facility that will provide long-term, secure housing 

for the Los Angeles district court and for the public that uses the building. The planned facility 
55 


Insert offset folio 42 here 75572.042

incorporates the direction we have received from this Subcommittee and the full Committee to 

maximize the use of existing courtrooms in the Roybal Building to the extent practicable, to share 

courtrooms, and to design and construct a building within the $366 million already appropriated for 

the project. 

I last had the opportunity to discuss the Los Angeles Courthouse project with the 

Subcommittee at its November 4, 2011 hearing in Washington, DC. At that time, I explained why 

a new courthouse is necded and detailed some of the serious security, operational, and infrastructure 

issues that exist at the Spring Street courthouse. I will not repeat that testimony here. The court 

understands that since that hearing, GSA's Acting Administrator, Daniel M. Tangherlini, has 

conducted a thorough review of the need for a new courthouse in Los Angeles. His review included 

a trip to Los Angeles to tour the existing Spring Street facility and to assess security and other issues 

there. Mr. Tangherliui has advised the court that, after considering other options, he has reaffirmed 

the need for a new courthouse and concluded that GSA should proceed with the project. 

As described in more detail below, the current plan consists of the court vacating the Spring 

Street facility, construction of a new courthouse on land already owned and prepared by GSA forthat 

purpose, and the court's continued use ofthe Roybal Building. As part of this plan, we understand 

that GSA also intends to transfer ownership of the Spring Street facility to a private developer in 

exchange for that developer's agreement to construct a new federal office building that will house 

federal tenants who are in, or who would otherwise occupy, leased space. The new federal office 

building is to be constructed On a portion of the site that has been acquired for the courthouse. The 

site should accommodate both buildings, given that GSA and the court have agreed to construct a 

courthouse that is smaller than originally contemplated. The court does not foresee a problem with 

GSA's proposed plan. 

2 
56 


Insert offset folio 43 here 75572.043

The planned courthouse is the result of multiple studies conducted by the Judiciary and GSA, 

beginning in the mid-1980s and continuing to the present day. These studies have included a 

thorough assessment of the space needs of the Los Angeles court, an evaluation of the relative merits 

of different housing options, and several GSA feasibility studies - all elements of the Judiciary's 

current long-range facilities planning process. Last year, GSA and the court agreed that construction 

of a new courthouse with 24 courtrooms and 32 chambers would be the most cost-effective and 

operationally efficient solution, taking into consideration the Judiciary's policies for courtroom 

sharing and planning space for new and projected judgeships. Also, as noted, the courthouse can be 

constructed within the existing Congressional appropriation. 

As you are aware, the Los Angeles courthouse project has the long-standing support of 

members of the California congressional delegation and the local community. I attach to this 

statcment a letter sent by the delegation to GSA last year in support of the project, and I respectfully 

request that it be made part of this hearing record. Further, I understand the Subcommittee has 

recently received statements from others in the Los Angeles cornmunity who are supportive of the 

new courthouse, and I ask that those letters also be included in the hearing record. 

Plan for the New Courthouse and Use of the Roybal Building 

The scope of the courthouse now planned in Los Angeles is the same as that presented to the 

Subcommittee at the November 2011 hearing, and is the product of close collaboration between the 

Judiciary and GSA - at both the national and local levels. GSA and the court were able to reduce 

the requirements for the new courthouse by applying current Judicial Conference senior judge 

courtroom sharing policies and eliminating any provision for projected judgeships. Given the federal 

government's difficult budgetary situation, the Los Angeles court suggested numerous other 

reductions in the scope of the project to ensure that the project budget stays within the amount 

3 
57 


Insert offset folio 44 here 75572.044

previously appropriated. Although we anticipate growth in the eourt through the addition of senior 

judges and their active judge replacements, we are committed to making this plan work. 

Details of the project include: 

• Construction of a new federal courthouse on a site that is already owned by the 

government and has been cleared and is ready for construction. 

• The newly constructed fucility will have 24 district judge courtrooms and 32 chambers for 

21 authorized active district judges and 11 senior judges. This reflects application of the 

Judicial Conference's courtroom sharing policies for senior judges. 

• As has always been planned, when the new courthouse is completed, the district court will 

vacate the Spring Street facility, and will be housed in the ncw courthouse and the Roybal 

Building. The Judiciary understands that GSA plans to exchange the Spring Street facility 

for a new federal office building, which will consolidate some agencies and move others out 

ofleased space. 

• The portion of the Roybal Building occupied by the courts will be fully utilized for: 

(I) shared magistrate judge courtrooms and chambers; (2) shared courtrooms and chambers 

for senior judges who cannot be accommodatcd in the new facility; (3) bankruptcy judge 

courtrooms and chambers; and (4) judicial support functions. 

• In response to the concerns expressed by this Subcommittee, the House Transportation and 

Infrastructure Committee, and the Government Accountability Office (GAO), this housing 

plan does not include space for judgeships the Judiciary has requested that Congress create, 

nor for projected judgeships not yet approved by the Judicial Conference but warranted based 

on caseload. 

While the plan will not address all of the operational issues resulting from the division of 

court operations into two facilities, the court will function more efficiently in this new configuration 

than it currently does. In particular, significant efficiencies will be achieved by the consolidation of 

all active district court judges in the new facility. 

A question was raised at the Subcommittee's November 4,2011 hearing as to whether the 

entire district court could be consolidated with the bankruptcy court in the Roybal Building, 

obviating the need for construction of a new facility. The answer is that it would be neither eosteffective nor practicable to do so. I refer the Subcommittee to the supplemental infonnation I 

4 
58 


Insert offset folio 45 here 75572.045

provided for that hearing record, which outlines the reasons why this is so. Let me add, however, 

that even if all executive braoch agencies were displaced from the Roybal Building, the remaining 

available space (approximately 160,000 square feet) would be insufficientto house the district court 

operations currently located in the Spring Street courthouse. Assuming courtroom sharing pursuant 

to Judicial Conference policy, the space available in the Roybal Building would still be several 

hundred thousand square feet less than what would be required to consolidate court operations in that 

building. 

Conclusion 

The Judiciary greatly appreciates the courthouses that the House Transportation and 

Infrastructure Committee has authorized over the years. These buildings provide secure places and 

space needed to administer justice fairly and equally to the American people. The plan I have 

described is a reasonable, efficient and cost-effective solution for the Los Angeles court's longstanding housing problem. The project has not changed since the Subcommittee's last hearing in 

November 2011. It will provide long-term, secure housing for the Los Angeles district court and 

members of the public who use the building. It incorporates Judicial Conference courtroom sharing 

policies, and the directive of the Housc Transportation and Infrastructure Committee to maximize 

the use of existing courtrooms in the Roybal Building to the extent practicable. The Judiciary 

appreciates that as a result of Acting Administrator Tangherlini's recent review, the necd for the 

project was reaffirmed. It also appreciates the unwavering support the project has received from the 

California congressional delegation and the local community, which looks forward to construction 

of a modem, safe and secure federal courthouse in downtown Los Angeles. 

5 
59 


Insert offset folio 46 here 75572.046

((ongrtSr5 of tf)e ~niteb $tate% 

Honorable Martha N. Johnson 

masl)ington. ].Bit 20515 

October 28,2011 

Administrator, General Services Administration 

1800 F Street, N.w. 

Washington, DC 20405 

Dear Administrator Johnson: 

We write to urge the General Services Administration (GSA) to proceed immediately with 

construction of a new federal courthouse for the United States District Court, Central District 

of California in Los Angeles. Congress first authorized site, design and acquisition in 2000 

and the project was declared a space emergency by the Judicial Conference of the United 

States in 2003 and has been the Judiciary's top building priority since that time. It has been 

delayed too long. 

Located in one of the busiest metropolitan areas in the nation, the Los Angeles court 

handles a high percentage of complex criminal cases related to drugs, murder, mafia, and 

terrorism. A request to create new permanent judgeships for the district, many of which will 

be placed in Los Angeles, is currently pending before Congress to handle the court's 

pressing caseload. Moreover, additlonal growth Is expected in the near future when several 

active judges in existing judgeships assume senior status and their replacements come on 

board. The two buildings that currently house the court already suffer from critical security 

and operational deficiencies that will only be exacerbated as the court grows. 

Congress approved the funding for GSA to construct the new courthouse in fiscal years 

2004 and 2005, but escalating construction costs at the time caused the project budget to 

exceed the appropriation. With no additional funding available to build the project as 

planned, congressional committees directed the court and GSA to work together and agree 

on a building that could be built within the funds appropriated. It is our understanding that 

GSA and the court have now reached agreement on a proposal that will do just that. We 

hope, therefore, that GSA will proceed with the process of awarding a contract to build the 

new courthouse. 

In closing, we want to stress again the critical need of the Los Angeles community to have 

safe, functional and efficient facilities in which to litigate cases and redress grievances. The 

new courthouse that is currently planned will allow them to do so. Building the courthouse, 

moreover, will create thousands of construction and related jobs, which are sorely needed in 

an area where unemployment exceeds 12% and a large percentage of the unemployed are 

in the construction industry. We commend GSA and the court for developing a new 

courthouse plan that can accommodate the needs of the Los Angeles community within the 

funds that have been appropriated for this project and we ask you to move ahead without 

delay, 

Sincerely, 
60 


Insert offset folio 47 here 75572.047

Administrator Martha N. Johnson, October 27, 2011, Page 2 

~~ BOB FILNER 

~ JOHN GARAMENDI ~HtiA- \./ 

~$o.rn~ DORIS O. MATSUI 

~4'cf~-€ UNDA T. SANCHEZ 

.!5~~~--,-w~ KAREN BASS 
61 


Insert offset folio 48 here 75572.048

,llIIlllfllltrtt ~ ,llIIlllttllfu 

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Honorable Jeff Denham 

Chairman 

~ttifcb "sbtcs ~isfrid @llud 

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September 20, 2012 

Subcommittee on Economic Development, 

Public Buildings and Emergency Management 

Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure 

United States House of Representatives 

Washington, DC 20515 

Honorable Eleanor Holmes Norton 

Ranking Member 

Subcommittee on Economic Development, 

Public Buildings and Emergency Management 

Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure 

United States House of Representatives 

Washington, DC 20515 

Dear Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member Norton: 

~tltf'qllnt 

(Z13) l!!I4·Z!l4!1 

I respectfully request that this letter and its enclosures be included in the record of the 

Subcommittee's August 17, 2012, field hearing in Los Angeles, California, entitled, 

"LA Courthouse: GSA's Plan to Spend $400 Million to Create Vacant Space." As I stated in the 

written testimony I submitted for the hearing, I regret that I was unable to appear in person at the 

hearing due to a previous commitment on the east coast that unfortunately could not be changed. 

During the question and answer portion of the hearing, two issues were raised that I would 

like to address. In addition, the General Services Administration (GSA) witness was asked to 

provide information about courtroom sharing in the Edward R. Roybal Federal Building and 

Courthouse (Roybal Building). I believe it is appropriate for the Central District of California to 

provide that information to you for the record rather than the GSA. 

The Possibility of Consolidating the District and Bankruptcy Courts in the Roybal Building is 

Based on a Flawed Courtroom Sharing Model 

At the hearing, it was suggested that, based on the Government Accountability Office's 

(GAO) courtroom sharing models, the district court and bankruptcy court could be consolidated 

in the Roybal Building, obviating the need for construction of a new courthouse in Los Angeles. 

This same suggestion was madc at the Subcommittee's November 4, 2011 hearing on the Los 

Angeles courthouse project, and in response I provided supplemental information to the 
62 


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Honorable leffDenham 

Honorable Eleanor Holmes Norton 

Page 2 

---------.-.. ~-.--

Subeommittee that detailed the obstacles to consolidation of both courts in the Roybal Building. 

I have enclosed that information with this lettcr for thc Subcommittee's consideration 

(Enclosure 1). Additionally, the Judiciary has provided detailed explanations of its disagreement 

with, and the flaws in, the GAO courtroom sharing models, which I shared with the Subcommittee 

in the supplemental information I provided for the November 4, 2011 hearing. I have enclosed that 

information with this letter for the Subcommittee's consideration as well (Enclosure 2). 

In sum, and as I explained in my written testimony, it would be neither cost-effective nor 

practicable to consolidate the entire district court with the bankruptcy court in the Roybal Building. 

Even if all executive branch agencies were displaced from the Roybal Building, the remaining 

available space (approximately 160,000 square feet) would be insufficient to house the district 

court operations currently located in the Spring Street courthouse. Assuming courtroom sharing 

pursuant to Judicial Conference policy, the space available in the Roybal Building would still be 

several hundred thousand square feet less than what would be required to consolidate court 

operations in that building. 

Courtroom Sharing in the Roybal Building 

The Roybal Building contains 10 district judge courtrooms, including a multi-defendant 

courtroom; 6 magistrate judge courtrooms; and 16 bankruptcy judge courtrooms. All district court 

judges resident in Los Angeles share the multi-defendant courtroom. At this time, the other 

9 district judge courtrooms are assigned to individual active district judges, including one judge 

whose appointment is pending before the Senate; the 6 magistrate judge courtrooms are assigned 

to individual magistrate judges; and the 16 bankruptcy judge courtrooms are assigned to individual 

bankruptcy judges, including one judge anticipated to be recalled and one visiting judge. The 

Judicial Conference policies on courtroom sharing apply to new construction. Because the Roybal 

Building was constructed prior to the adoption of these policies, there has not been courtroom 

sharing to date in the Roybal Building. When the new courthouse is built, however, it is 

anticipated that 13 senior judges will share 7 eourtrooms in the new courthouse and the Roybal 

BUlldmg, and 17 maglstnite}iiOgeswi1Is1iiii:e~ courtrOoinsTnl!ieROyOiilTufRIlng.l\ny 

unassigned courtrooms will be re-purposed as chambers or released as appropriate. 

Again, thank you for the opportunity to present the views of the Central District of 

California on these matters related to the Los Angeles courthouse. I appreciate your 

accommodation of our request for these additional materials to be placed into the hearing record. 

Sincerely, 

Enclosures 
63 


Insert offset folio 50 here 75572.050

Enclosure I 

Challenges in Consolidating the District and Bankruptcy Courts in the Edward R. Roybal 

(Roybal) Federal Building. 

At the hearing, it was suggested that the district court and bankruptcy court could be 

consolidated in the Roybal building, obviating the need for construction of a new courthouse in 

Los Angeles. The district court and bankruptcy court cannot be consolidated in the Roybal 

building without: a) significant construction in and renovation of the existing building, the cost 

of which, when combined with the cost of the swing space that would be needed during 

construction, would likely exceed the cost 0 f constructing a new building; b) evicting current 

federal tenants and moving them into leased space; and e) obtaining additional space for the 

bankruptcy and district clerks' offices, and for probation and pretrial services offices that could 

no longer be accommodated in the Roybal building due to lack of space. 

Specifically, consolidation of the district court and bankruptcy court in the Roybal 

building would require the following: 

The build out of 13 new district and magistrate judge courtrooms, and the provision of 

secure prisoner circulation and holding cells for these courtrooms. 

The build out of 39 additional chambers for use primarily by senior and magistrate 

judges. It would be necessary to demolish four bankruptcy courtrooms to provide space 

for these chambers. If Congress were to create the clearly needed district judgeship 

positions proposed in S. 1032 and HR 2365, additional space would need to be found and 

built out for them as well. I 

Significant alterations to eight bankruptcy courtrooms to provide the prisoner access and 

holding cells necessary to convert them for district court use. 

Demolition of twelve bankruptcy court jury deliberation rooms that are too small for 

district court needs and reconstruction to convert them for district court use. 

Conversion of the district court clerk's office in Roybal to a jury assembly area. 

Expansion ofUSMS holding cells. 

The vacating of approximately 155,000 usable square feet (usf) of space in the Roybal 

building by current executive branch agencies and other federal occupants, demolition of 

the vacated space, and reconstruction for district court purposes. The court understands 

that this amount of space is not available in GSA's inventory of federal space in the area, 

and that it will be necessary to obtain leased space for these tenants. Based on past 

experience, it is likely to take three to at least four years to process a lease prospectus for 

this amount of space. 

I The Central District of California is the 11 th busiest of the 94 districts in the nation. 

District judges in the Central District carry one of the heaviest caseloads in the nation with the 

number of weighted caseload filings currently at 639 per authorized judgeship (year ending June 30, 

2011). This far exceeds the national average of 505. 

Page 1 of 2 
64 


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Enclosure I 

The resulting configuration would be able to accommodate the bankruptcy court but 

would not accommodate the bankruptcy clerk's office, the probation office and pretrial 

services office. There would also be significant space shortfalls for the USMS. An 

additional 253,000 usfwould be required to house these functions. 

The extensive construction that would be required on floors 12 through 20 to complete 

these renovations would significantly impact building egress and life safety systems, 

making occupancy of these floors impractical during the construction period, which can 

be expected to take at least three years. This would necessitate the acquisition of 

approximately 125,000 usf of leased temporary swing space to house the bankruptcy 

court for the duration of construction. 

As can be seen, renovation of the Roybal building would be a complex construction project 

that would require multiple interdependent phases. Delays and additional costs can be expected. 

Consequently, and for all of the reasons noted, consolidation of the district court in the Roybal 

building would not be cost effective or practical. 

Page 2 of 2 
65 


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Enclosure 2 

GAO's Courtroom Sharing Recommendations Are Based on Invalid Assumptions 

In its testimony, GAO stated that based on its 2010 analysis, three senior judges could 

sharc one courtroom, two magistrate judges could sharc one courtroom, and three district judges 

could share two courtrooms. The Judiciary addressed the GAO's analysis in a June 1,2010 lettcr 

from James C. Duff, the former Director of the Administrative Office of the United States 

Courts, which responded to the GAO's draft rcport titled FEDERAL COURTHOUSE 

CONSTRUCTION: Better Planning, Oversight, and Courtroom Sharing Needed to Address 

Future Costs (GAO-I 0-4 I 7) (Attachment 1). In Mr. Duffs letter, thc Judiciary explained its 

objection to the GAO's use ofpolicics and rules that were not in effect at thc timc buildings were 

planned and constructed, and articulated the Judiciary's doubts about the validity and viability of 

the courtroom sharing model developed by the GAO. Regarding the model, the Judiciary noted 

a) the fact that the contractor who developed the model apparently lacked expertise concerning 

the judicial process and the manner in which courts function; b) the fact that the model inflated 

the workday by 25 percent to arrive at the proposed sharing ratios; and c) the lack of transparency 

concerning the assumptions used to develop the model. 

Nearly three months after the GAO finalized the report, and following numerous requests 

by the Judiciary, the GAO provided the Judiciary with a copy of the report of the contractor who 

developed the courtroom simulation model. This enabled Judge Michael A. Ponsor, United 

States District Judge for the District of Massachusetts and Chair of the Judicial Conference 

Committee on Space and Facilities, to discuss the flaws in the model at a September 29,2010 

hearing of the Subcommittee on Courts and Competition Policy of the House Committee on the 

Judiciary (Attachment 2). In his testimony, Judge Ponsor provided the following analysis: 

According to the report, the assumptions were kept simple. This 

simplicity has resulted in inaccuracies in the model that we can 

easily identifY based on our expertise in the judicial process. For 

example, the model appears to assume that judges are fungiblethat any available judge could be plugged into any available 

courtroom to hear any available case. The model also appears to 

assume that the participants in the process - the litigants, prisoners, 

jurors, courtroom personnel are also fungible because they are 

lined up and ready to appear at court at the moment a courtroom is 

freed up. And the model assumed that courtrooms would be used 

ten hours per day, ref1ecting a lack of understanding of reality in 

the courtroom and the judicial process. Jurors, litigants, witnesses, 

family members and other court participants would have great 

difficulty sitting in court for ten hours a day, due to work, child 

care and other responsibilities. Nor could we expect jurors to 

focus clearly on testimony for that long. 

Page 1 of 2 
66 


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On a disturbing note, the model appears to have completely 

ignored the security issues that exist at courts. Courts are places 

where dangerous and violent individuals are brought on a daily 

basis. They are places where civil litigants have in the past 

expressed violent and deadly disagreement with the outcomes of 

their cases. The more moving around the courthouse that is done 

as cases are shifted from one courtroom to another, the greater the 

potential for security problems. 

Page 2 of 2 

Enclosure 2 
67 


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JAMES C. DUFF 

Director 

Mr. Mark L. Goldstein 

ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICE OF THE 

UNITED STATES COURTS 

W ASHlNGTON, D.C. 20544 

June 1,2010 

Director, Physical Infrastructure Issues 

U.S. Government Accountability Office 

441 G Street, N.W. 

Washington, DC 20548 

Dear Mr. Goldstein: 

Attachment 1 

I write on behalf of the Federal Judiciary in response to the draft report entitled, 

FEDERAL COURTHOUSE CONSTRUCTION: Better Planning, Oversight, and Courtroom 

Sharing Needed to Address Future Costs (GAO-I 0-417). The judiciary takes its stewardship 

responsibilities seriously and would welcome a fact-based and objective analysis as well as 

constructive suggestions for improving our facilities planning approach. It is regrettable at a time 

when the General Services Administration (GSA) and the Federal Judiciary are working closely 

and effectively to control courthouse costs including current and planned courtroom-sharing 

measures adopted by the Judiciary - that GAO has produced a misinformed report that distorts 

both the current facilities planning process and prior projects. 

In short, we have serious concerns about the accuracy of key data, the misleading way in 

which information is presented, and the soundness of methodologies employed to substantiate 

the draft report's conclusions. We emphatically dispute the draft report's contention that the 33 

federal courthouses completed since 2000 have 3.56 million square feet of unnecessary and 

wasted space; and we have grave doubts about the validity and viability of the courtroom-sharing 

model developed by GAO. 

We are also deeply troubled that the draft report issued by the GAO under strict 

disclosure restrictions was released to the public by GAO as its testimony to Congress on 

May 25, 2010, before Judiciary and GSA officials had provided comments. Additionally, after 

hearing GSA's and the Judiciary's testimony before the House Subcommittee on Economic 

Development, Public Buildings and Emergency Management of the Committee on 

Transportation and Infrastructure disputing key facts underlying the draft report's conclusions, 

you nevertheless discussed those conclusions on Federal News Radio. 

A TRADITION OF SERVICE TO THE FEDERAL JUDICIARY 
68 


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Mr. Mark L. Goldstein 

Page 2 

Attachment 1 

This letter describes concerns related to those aspects of the draft report that pertain 

directly to the Federal Judiciary's programs and policies. A companion Judiciary response is 

enclosed in the form of a letter from the Honorable Loretta A. Preska, Chief Judge, United States 

District Court for the Southern District of New York. Chief Judge Preska's letter decries GAO's 

misleading characterization of her district's temporary experience with courtroom sharing as 

proof of the long-term efficacy of sharing by district judges (as asserted by GAO obliquely in the 

draft report and explicitly at the May 25 hearing); and it refutes the accuracy of the draft report's 

portrayal of an expert-panel discussion in which she participated. The draft report also covers 

important issues that are under the purview of the GSA, which will be responding separately. 

We appreciate that the internal review process within GAO strives to ensure the 

objectivity and fairness of reports as well as the accuracy of facts and analyses. It is worrisome, 

however, that a senior member of the GAO audit team disclosed a predilection for a particular 

outcome when he told a group of Judiciary officials that more courtroom sharing would be 

coming and there would be no point in arguing against it. It appears that the audit team's zeal to 

meet certain objectives may have compromised its ability to be entirely objective and fair. It may 

be too late to change false impressions already generated by the premature disclosure and 

discussion of an unreviewed draft report, but it is not too late to make corrections and you 

expressed a willingness to do this during the May 25 hearing. We hope these comments will be 

helpful to GAO to produce a final product that will satisfy its high standards of quality, 

objectivity, and fairness. Primary issues are outlined below, followed by more detailed analysis. 

For the 33 courthouses studied by GAO, the Judiciary's courtroom policies in effect at 

that time were used to determine the number of courtrooms needed in each facility and 

these numbers were authorized by Congress. Those policies provided a courtroom for 

each judge. Auditors typically review actions and operations against the policies and 

rules in effect at the time. Instead, GAO has manufactured its own rules in the course of 

this study regarding how many courtrooms it thinks should be provided to judges, and it 

has applied these untested and unapproved rules retroactively to the 33 courthouses that 

were already built. The report attributes to this made-up concept 946,000 excess square 

feet. 

Because of GAO's retroactive application of its notion about courtroom sharing, this draft 

has defined as excess and wasted space courtrooms that currently are assigned to and used 

daily by federal judges. This is not reasonable. 

It is misleading to suggest that 887,000 extra square feet exist because of inaccurate 

estimates of judges for the 33 courthouses studied. GAO's snapshot approach to counting 

heads simply does not provide a complete picture. For example, the draft report supports 

its conclusion that the Judiciary's planning process overstates the need for judges by 

showing photographs of unassigned chambers' suiles in the Coyle Courthouse in Fresno, 

California (on p. 29). The Eastern District of California is desperately in need of 
69 


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Mr. Mark L. Goldstein 

Page 3 

Attachment 1 

additional judges. Its caseload per judge is the highest in the nation (with over 1000 cases 

per district judge, it has twice the national average caseload), and additional judgeships 

are currently pending approval by Congress. To suggest that those empty chambers arc 

because of poor planning or are unneeded is absurd. 

The draft report focuses a great deal of attention on courtrooms, but nowhere in the report 

is a table indicating the numbers of courtrooms and judges in the courthouses studied. 

For a fact-based analysis of courtrooms, the absence of such vital data is surprising. The 

facts present a different picture than what has been suggested. Our analysis of facts 

(actual data on courtroom numbers, current judges, existing vacancies, soon-to-be vacant 

authorized positions, and pending new judgeships) indicates that for most of the 33 

courthouses studied, either all courtrooms are assigned now, or they will be shortly or in 

the next few years. Moreover, these courthouses must suffice for many decades of 

occupancy. 

Based on the limited information provided about the simulation model, it is highly 

doubtful that GAO's courtroom-sharing model is sufficiently sound to be worthy of 

publishing, much less touted as an alternative to the carefully studied courtroom-sharing 

policies that have been promulgated over the last few years by the Judiciary. Running a 

simulation model for courtroom sharing requires making a large number of assumptions 

about case processing. It appears that the model was developed without the involvement 

of any experts in the judicial process and included some invalid assumptions. The draft 

report does not describe this model in the level of detail typically presented in research 

products to enable its assumptions and methods to be critically scrutinized. GAO has 

steadfastly refused to provide this information. Minutes after the May 25 hearing 

concluded, despite the Subcommittee's request that the GAO work collaboratively with 

the Judiciary and GSA and make available these assumptions, GAO pointedly refused to 

share them. If the model is well-grounded, why has GAO withheld this critical 

information? 

GAO has suggested that a one-day confidential meeting of an expert panel convened by 

GAO and the National Academy of Sciences helped to develop assumptions used for the 

simulation model. All ofthe Judiciary's participants in that panel have repudiated the 

representation of the panel discussion that appears in the draft report. A panel member's 

comprehensive and detailed critique is enclosed with this response. 

GAO's conclusions about feasible courtroom-sharing formulas do not appear to be 

supported by the source data. For example, courtroom-usage data provided by the 

Federal Judicial Center and used by GAO to develop the model showed that courtrooms 

in the top quartile of usc during the study period had an average 6.6 hours of use per day. 

This level of usage would appear to leave approximately one hour free in a typical 

workday for other use. In a three-judge courthouse, for example, if the judges each 
70 


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Mr. Mark L. Goldstein 

Page 4 

Attachment 1 

needed to use a courtroom for 6.6 hours each day but had to share one or two courtrooms 

as suggested by GAO, there clearly would be insufficient courtroom availability, and this 

would result in serious delays in the administration of justice. 

Additional details about these and other issues are provided below. 

Evolution or the Judiciary's Facilities Planning Process 

The GAO report is critical of the Judiciary's planning process. Predicting what will 

happen in the future is, to say the least, challenging, and the GAO has recognized these 

challenges. A 1993 GAO report titled, Federal Judiciary Space: Long-Range Planning Process 

Needs Revision (GAO/GGD-93-132, Sept. 28, 1993), also noted that: 

GAO recognizes that it is difJicult to project future space needs with precision. 

The projection of such needs is not an exact science, and in the final analysis, it is 

reasonable to expect some variation between the estimate and what is actually 

needed. Space estimates are particularly challengingfor the judiciary because 

there are numerous factors that cause changes in the workload, and therefore 

space needs, which are beyond its control. 

It can take upwards of 15-20 years from the time of initial planning to occupancy of new 

federal courthouses. During that time circumstances change: judgeship bills are not passed 

when anticipated, judges do not take senior status when planned, and judges retire or die. In 

addition, caseloads can fluctuate, prosecutorial policies change, and federal jurisdiction can 

expand - all impacting the workload of the federal courts. But once the decision is made to size 

a building based on a certain set of assumptions, it becomes very difficult and costly to change 

course mid-stream. To do so results in expensive change orders and a building that is not likely 

to meet longer-term needs. 

The Judiciary was one ofthe first entities in government to establish a systematic 

approach to space and facilities planning. In the mid-1980s, the Judiciary began its formal 

facilities program to address problems associated with outdated and antiquated courthouses, the 

need for additional space to accommodate a growing Judiciary, and security issues. We have 

continued to improve and refine our space-planning process as additional data have been 

gathered and analyzed. Thus, the methodologies used in planning the courthouses studied by 

GAO have changed. 

The Judiciary has been open to suggestions for improvements made by outside entities, 

and has adopted recommendations previously made by GAO and by private-sector consultants. 

Some of the improvements include use of multiple forecasting methods, review of the accuracy 

of the prior year's forecasts, and re-instituting the on-site planning sessions in each district and 

comprehensive facility evaluations of each courthouse. Perhaps most dramatically, the Judiciary 
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Attachment 1 

stopped its space planning process entirely in 2004 so that it could, once again, re-evaluate its 

planning methodology with a view toward cost containment. The Judicial Conference, the 

Judiciary's policymaking body, determined that the long-range planning process should be 

modified to ensure that the courts with the most urgent space needs were highlighted. The courts 

now employ a new long-range facilities management process known as Asset Management 

Planning to assess facilities needs on a go-forward basis. The process was developed as an 

objective methodology that identifies costs and benefits for alternative housing solutions such as 

renovating existing space. We have worked with the GSA to contain costs, including 

implementing cost controls for the approval of deviations from space standards. 

Amount of Excess Space 

The draft GAO report asserts that many courthouses have not been fully occupied and it 

suggests that what it then deems to be "excess" space constitutes a waste of funding. There are 

several reasons to question the validity of these conclusions. One key question concerns the 

number of courtrooms and judges in these facilities. We analyzed the 33 buildings identified by 

GAO and found that in most of these buildings, the number of courtrooms is either equal to the 

number of judges in the building, or will be equal to or be very close to the number of judges to 

be housed in the building once vacancies are filled and required new judgeships are approved. It 

also appears from the draft report that GAO did not always take into account congressionally 

authorized vacant judgeship positions in its analysis. The building sizes authorized by Congress 

assumed that vacant, congressionally authorized judgeship positions would be filled at these 

locations, that senior district judges and magistrate judges would not be sharing courtrooms, and 

that space would be provided for future new judgeship positions. It is more appropriate to apply 

the planning policies in place at the time to detennine whether we met or came close to our 

projections. 

Out of the 33 courthouses studied, GAO chose to highlight six (p. 28) to demonstrate 

what appear to be large differences between planned and actual numbers. It is not clear how 

GAO calculated the numbers in this table. To provide a much simpler and understandable 

assessment of whether there is excess space in these courthouses, we have produced a table 

below that indicates for each courthouse the number of district, magistrate and bankruptcy judges 

compared to the number of courtrooms for these judges. The table below shows a very different 

picture. All of the courtrooms in these facilities are expected to be assigned within the next few 

years, and in three of the six courthouses there will be fewer courtrooms than judges. 
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Mr. Mark L. Goldstein 

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Number of District and Bankruptcy Judges & Courtrooms 

at GAO's Selected Courthouses 

(By 2016) 

Current Possible 

Number of Pending New Judges Eligible for Number of Current 

Judges & Judgeships Senior Status Judges Number of 

Vacancies Anticipated by 2016 by 2016 Courtrooms 

Bryant! 

Prettyman CHs 24 0 9 33 27 

Washington, DC 

CoyleCH. 10 3 I 14 14 

Fresno. CA 

D'AmatoCH 15 2 2 19 19 

Central Islip, NY 

DeConciniCH 12 I 3 16 14 

Tucson~AZ 

Eagleton CH 19 0 I 20 20 

St. Louis.MO 

Ferguson/King 

AlkinsCHs 25 I 7 33 27 

Miami,FL 

Attachment 1 

Surplus/Deficit 

Number of 

Courtrooms 

by 2016 

(6) 

0 

0 

(2) 

0 

(6) 

Note: Our analysis includes all district, magistrate and bankruptcy judge types and authorized vacancies not covered by 

recalled judges. 

There are factual corrections previously provided to GAO in response to a "Statement of 

Facts" that should be made. For example, GAO states (on p. 31) that the U.S. District Court for 

the District of Columbia had projected 14 senior judges by the end of the 10-year planning period. 

The correct projected number of senior district judges is 7. Also, GAO incorrectly reports that the 

district court currently has 9 fewer senior judges than estimated. The correct number is I. Within 

the next 6 years, that district court will have 9 additional judges who will be eligible for senior 

status. On page 32, the draft reports an incorrect figure. There are 5 not 4 pending new district 

judgeships in the Eastern District of California. 

As noted in the draft report, there are locations where we did not meet our projections. 

Several of these buildings were planned at the inception of our planning process - a process that 

has evolved over time. With the adoption of courtroom sharing policies for senior district judges 

and magistrate judges approved by the Judicial Conference in 2008 and 2009, many of these 

locations will now be able to support the operations of the Judiciary and the U.S. Marshals 

Service well beyond the initially planned 10-year time frame. It is misleading to say that the space 

is "extra" because of incorrect judge estimates. The space will be needed at some point in the 

near future. It may not be needed until the 12th year or the 14'h year from the time design of the 

building started, but it will be needed. 
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Attachment 1 

The draft report charges that "the Judiciary's method of estimating judges does not 

accOlmt for uncertainty in when judges will take senior status and in how many new judgeships 

will be authorized." To account accurately for "uncertainty" would seem to be an oxymoron. The 

draft report states that the Judiciary's estimates were based on "unsupported assumptions about 

the amount of time it would take to obtain authorizations for new judgeships." This is false. 

When the courthouses studied by GAO were planned, Congress regularly enacted new judgeship 

legislation. In fact, up until 1990, Congress had passed comprehensive judgeship legislation 

about every six years, including 1978, 1984, and 1990. These bills added hundreds of new 

judgeships to the courts, and this history formed a reasonable basis for the planning assumptions. 

Likewise, history regarding when eligible judges, on average, tended to take senior status formed 

the basis for the planning assumptions. 

Although Congress has not passed regular comprehensive judgeship legislation in recent 

years, in the past two decades, the Judiciary has gained 103 district judgeships, 61 bankruptcy 

judges, and 210 magistrate judges. The draft GAO report criticizes the Judiciary for continuing to 

plan space for new judgeships - however, if Congress had enacted our requests, as they had 

historically done, and we had not planned chambers and courtrooms for these judges, there would 

have been a critical shortfall of space around the country. 

The draft report incorrectly characterizes space provided for visiting judges by stating that 

it is a way of building "extra" space (p. 30). In smaller courts with few judges, it is not unusual to 

have all the Article III judges recuse themselves because of a connection or conflict with one of 

the parties. In other courts, judges arc assigned from other districts or circuits to assist with a 

surge in workload. And, in some courts, judges travel from one division within a district to 

another because there are not enough judges at anyone location to handle the caseload. When 

these circumstances exist, smaller chambers and sometimes a courtroom dedicated to use by 

visiting judges is provided. Characterizing this space as "extra" space because it is not assigned 

to a specific judge demonstrates a fundamcntal misunderstanding of how the judicial system 

operates at some locations. 

We are sensitive to the costs of constructing courthouses, and we are willing to consider 

reasonable changes to our planning assumptions to reduce the risk of significant over-projections 

of filture needs. Failing to take into account requested judgeships that are already needed because 

of existing caseload, but that have not yet been authorized by Congress, would be imprudent. 

Most courthouses are occupied for many decades. To employ a planning process that could never 

result in unassigned space would be extremely shortsighted, would risk having inadequate 

capacity to house needed judges and staff for the future, and would therefore reduce the useful life 

of these courthouses. 
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Page 8 

Courtroom Sharing 

Attachment 1 

The Judicial Conference has adopted several significant policy changes that included a 

policy to provide one courtroom for every two senior judges, and a policy to provide one 

courtroom for every two magistrate judges. In addition, a courtroom usage study of bankruptcy 

courts is currently underway and after a determination is made regarding the bankruptcy courts, 

the Judiciary will consider a courtroom sharing policy for courthouses with more than 10 active 

district judges. These are major changes to the courtroom allocation policies for the Federal 

Judiciary, which were made only after a great deal of consideration of their impact on the 

litigation process and the delivery of justice. 

While these policies were not in effect at the time the 33 courthouses were planned, the 

Judiciary now applies its courtroom-sharing policies to new planning efforts. These policies will 

result in substantial cost savings. The draft GAO report proposes senior district judges and 

magistrate judges sharing policies that differ from those endorsed by the Judicial Conference. The 

draft GAO report also proposes a sharing ratio for active district judges, a matter that the Judiciary 

is still working on. The report provides practically no information about the assumptions used to 

produce these results and nothing to support the contention that a single ratio could apply in 

districts of all sizes. Experience demonstrates that this cannot possibly work. 

The GAO proposals - articulated in a scant seven pages are based on two sources of 

information. One source is interviews of court officials and an expert panel convened by GAO 

and the National Academy of Sciences, which included federal judges and a court clerk who had 

experience with courtroom sharing. GAO mischaracterizes many ofthe participants' comments. 

For example, the draft asserts that a district court official said that "indicators of courthouse 

efficiency ... increased when the judges of the court were sharing." As noted in the enclosed 

comments from Chief Judge Loretta A. Preska, this statement is completely contrary to what was 

said. Chief Judge Preska's letter contains numerous examples of GAO's misrepresentation of the 

panelists' views and GAO's interviews in that district court. 

The other source of information is a computer model of the Federal Judicial Center's 

study data that was developed for the GAO by a contractor with no apparent claim to any 

particular expertise in courts or the judicial system. As a result, the model does not reflect the 

reality of what happens in the courtroom or the litigation process. As with any type of modeling 

effort, the courtroom model must be based on certain assumptions, the formulation of which 

requires significant expertise and understanding of how eourts actually work, and the 

consideration of possible impacts on litigants, parties, jurors and judges. The only key assumption 

identified by GAO in its report that may have radically affected the outcome of the modeling is 

noted in the appendix. i.e., that every courtroom should be in use for 10 hours every day. This is 

unrealistic and virtually impossible. It inflates the work day by 25 percent. 

Federal employees of the eourt and DOJ are dedicated and may well work long hours on a 

regular basis, but jurors, litigants, witnesses, family members, and other parties would have 
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Mr. Mark L. Goldstein 

Page 9 

Attachment 1 

trouble arranging their schedules for the extra hours and may have difficulties arranging for child 

care, or meeting other commitments that would be necessary if normal work hours of 8:00 a.m. to 

6:00 p.m. are assumed. This 10-hour-a-day assumption alone would have grossly distorted the 

resulting courtroom sharing ratios. The draft report also contains incorrect statements about trials 

(p.42). Average trials per judge in 2008 were 20 trials.' The median length of a trial was 3 days.2 

A courtroom is not simply a facility but an essential tool for the delivery of justice. The 

application of courtroom usage data to construct a simulation model may give the appearance of 

authentic analysis, but the approach has serious logical and conceptual flaws, primarily through 

what appears to be simplistic and unrealistic assumptions. An assessment of the need for 

courtrooms was completed by Ernst & Young in 2000 as part of an Independent Assessment of the 

Judiciary's Space and Facilities Program. That report noted: 

Planning for courtrooms and the impact of courtroom sharing is more complex 

than a simple assessment of actual courtroom use would indicate. 

Understanding the dynamics of the judicial process is fundamental to any 

attempt to anticipate courtroom needs accurately and to use courtrooms 

effectively. 

In describing factors that affect courtroom usage and needs, the 2000 Emst & Young 

study concluded that it would be wrong to assume that all of the hours spent by judges in a 

courthouse can be perfectly redistributed across fewer courtrooms without adding a generous 

allowance for flexibility. They indicated that such a factor is needed because scheduling full 

utilization of courtrooms would require conditions that do not exist in the judicial environment, 

namely, greater certainty that scheduled events will occur; greater certainty about event duration; 

adequate notice of all events; and the ability to reschedule events to fill open courtroom time. 

As noted by Ernst & Young, it would be a false premise to assume that judicial events are 

largely knowable and predictable. They are not. It is one thing to plug into a mathematical model 

statistics about events that have already occurred, but it is another matter altogether to predict the 

duration of these events in advance. This would be difficult, even for experts, because of the 

inherent variability and uncertain nature of the judicial process. Trial times can range 

significantly in length, and juries may deliberate for minutes or many days. Not only is the 

duration of many proceedings unpredictable, but only in a simulation model and not in reality can 

a suddenly available courtroom be readily used for another case. After the fact, one may kuow 

I Administrative Office of the United States Courts. 2008 Federal Court Management 

Statistics, Washington, D.C., March 2009. 

2 Administrative Office of the United States Courts. 2008 Annual Report of the Director: 

Judicial Business of the United States Courts, Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing 

Office, 2009. 
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Mr. Mark L. Goldstein 

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Attachment 1 

that a case concluded at noon and the courtroom was free in the afternoon, but how foreseeable 

was that circumstance? Perhaps it could have been foreseen the day before, but probably not a 

month earlier. An average trial for a particular type of case may take three or four days, but others 

will not. There is considerable variability. A 1998 study by the National Center for State Courts 

entitled On Trial: the Length of Civil and Criminal Trials, demonstrated there were substantial 

differences in experienced state court judges' and attorneys' estimates of trial length compared to 

the actual length ofthe trials. 

The draft report does not describe in any sufficient detail the methodology and 

assumptions used to determine its recommended ratio of judges to courtrooms. GAO did not 

provide the draft report to the Federal Judicial Center, which is thc Judiciary's research and 

education entity, although GAO used the Federal Judicial Center's data to develop its simulation 

model. After review of GAO's draft report, the Federal Judicial Center has provided the 

following response: 

The GAO's draft report provides little or no information about most of the model 

elements •••• Thus, there is not enough information or details about the simulation model, in 

general, or about the components of the simulation, in particular, to allow the Center to make 

a constructive technical assessment of the GAO's efforts to model and simulate courtroom use 

in the district courts. It is possible, however, to identifY instances where this lack of detail 

raises questions about the completeness and adaptability of the model and therefore the ability 

of GA D's simulation to provide useful guidance for the judiciary. 

According to the draft report (page 56 of Appendix I), the GAO used discrete event 

simulation techniques, such as those discussed above, to develop their simulation model of 

courtroom use. From the limited information the report provides about the simulation, 

however, it is difficult to determine exactly what elements were included in the GA 0 's 

model. It is unclear, for example, what entities were defined (e.g., case proceedings, 

sessions of court) and whether different types of entities were represented (e.g., were case 

proceedings differentiated into trials and hearings). Decisions made about the elements 

of the model are critical for the outcome of the modeling effort. The GA 0 report provides 

little inJormation about those decisions. 

From the inJormation given, it does not appear that the model included the concept oj 

cases or a caseload, either as a specific entity oj the model or as a parameter that could 

be varied in each simulation. If the model does not include cases and caseloads, then the 

simulation cannot estimate how changes in the model affect the time to disposition Jor 

individual cases or how changes in caseload affect courtroom use. The GAO report notes 

that the Center's study" ... showed no correlation between the number of weighted and 

un-weighted cases filed in a courthouse and the amount of time courtrooms are in use" 

(page 36). The study did, however, show a statistically significant correlation between 

pending caseloads and courtroom use, suggesting that cases and caseloads are important 

elements oJa model. (See the continuation of the Executive Summary table on page 4 oj 

the Center's report.) 
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Attachment 1 

The draft report notes that the model allowedfor " ... user input of the number and types of 

judges and courtrooms," (page 56) so it seems that both judges and courtrooms were 

identified as resources in the model. But it is not clear how the coordination of judge and 

courtroom availability was handled. In particular the report mentions that the model was 

" ... based on scheduled courtroom availability on weekdays from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. "(page 

56), but it does not mention what schedules were used for judges. It also doesn't mention 

if those hours of operation are typical for the federal courthouses they studied or what the 

results would be if a typical operating schedule of less than 10 hours per day were 

assumed (e.g., if 8 hours per day were used). 

The draft report does not provide details on what processing statistics were gathered 

during the simulation runs and only describes the output measures of the simulation 

broadly (" ... the output states whether the utilization of the courtrooms does not exceed the 

availability of the courtrooms in the long run. " (page 56)). It is unclear whether this 

means that all scheduled events were processed each day as expected, or if it implies that 

events were sometimes "bumped" from the day they were scheduled, but over the course 

of a week or a month all events were eventually processed. Whether events are processed 

on the same day as scheduled or over some longer period is an important distinction 

decision makers would want to take into account when determining the impact of 

changing the system. 

The draft report seems to imply that simulation runs were made for different courthouse 

configurations and that these runs resulted in different outcomes ("When using the model 

to determine the level of sharing possible at each courthouse ... " (page 56)), but it 

provides no specific information about what those outcomes were. The report also 

recommends a single sharing configuration for each type of judge - e.g., 3 district judges 

to 2 district courtrooms - suggesting that level was sufficient in evelY modeled situation. 

The report does not, however, provide details that support a recommendation that a single 

ratio can apply in districts of all sizes. 

The draft report states that "The goal of the model was to determine how many 

courtrooms are requiredfor courtroom utilization rates similar to that recorded by FJC. " 

(page 56) The level of utilization it seems to be r(?ferring to is the average use of a 

courtroom per day based on actual use and unused scheduled time combined (e.g., 4.1 

hours for courtrooms assigned to individual active district judges (page 35)) reported by 

the Center in our report on Courtroom Use. The average time per courtroom is not the 

only level of courtroom use that was reported for the Center's study, however. In 

particular, courtrooms in the upper quartile of use reported 6.6 hours per day on average. 

(See the Executive Summary table on page 3 of the Center's report on courtroom use.) 

The draft report does not appear to take into account the impact of a 3-to-2 courtroom 

sharing ratio in situations where use is different than the average level of use. 
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Attachment 1 

The draft report describes GAO's efforts, with the assistance o/the National Academy oj 

Sciences, to assemble a panel o/judicial experts to discuss the challenges to courtroom 

sharing (pages 40- 41). However, it does not appear that the expert panel had an 

opportunity to review the GA 0 's model assumptions, decisions about entities and 

resources, decisions about the processing statistics that should be collected and reported, 

and so on. In other words, it does not appear that the expert panel had an on-going role 

in development ojthe model. 

Conclusion 

The Judiciary has already made great strides to reduce construction and rent costs. We 

understand that we must use limited resources wisely. The Judiciary and GSA will continue to 

work collaboratively as we plan new court facilities with an emphasis on cost and function. We 

will continue to look for ways to improve our planning methodologies. We welcome constructive 

and feasible recommendations from the GAO and will implement them as we have in the past. 

Also, the Judiciary will continue to examine seriously courtroom needs based on a thorough and 

considered analysis of data and its potential impact on the administration of justice and the 

Judiciary's responsibility to provide an impartial forun1 in which criminal prosecutions and civil 

cases can be resolved in a just, speedy, and inexpensive manner. 

GAO should consider carefully the Judiciary's comments (including those of Chief Judge 

Preska and the Federal Judicial Center) as well as those to be provided by the General Services 

Administration, to make substantial, realistic, and informed modifications to the report. 

Sincerely, 

Director 

Enclosure 
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LORETTA A. PRESKA 

CHl£FJUDGE 

Mr. Mark L Goldstein 

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 

SOO PEARL STREET 

NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10007-1312 

June 1,2010 

Director, Physical Infrastructure Issues 

U.S. Government Accountability Office 

441 G Street, N.W. 

Washington, DC 20548 

Re: Federal Courthouse Construction Draft 

Dear Mr. Goldstein: 

Attachment 1 

2.t2-805-024O 

FAX 80$7941 

Please accept this as a formal response to the draft report on Federal Courthouse 

Construction (GAO-l 0-417) (the "Draft"). I request that this letter be published in the final 

report. I participated in both the Governmcnt Accountability Office ("GAO") visit to my 

courthouse and the GAOlNational Academy of Science panel discussion of September 14 on 

courtroom sharing ("Panel"). 

The Draft is disappointing in that it mis-characterizes, over-simplifies, and omits 

important parts of the discussions that took place at the Panel and at the meeting at the Moynihan 

Courthouse with the GAO and members of the Third Branch. That the Draft relies on those 

inaccuracies in reaching its conclusions is, I suggest, reason to reject those conclusions. 

Panel of Experts 

As noted above, I participated in the "panel" of experts held in Washington on 

September 14,2009. I understand that the jUdiciary panelists were selected as experts because of 

our practical experience with courtroom sharing. 

The Draft states as facts and relies on matters that, at least in this district, are 

demonstrably incorrect. The Draft states at page 42 that the median trial lasts one or two days. 

Using our district's jury statistics for the six-month period from November, 2009 to April, 20]0, 

the median civil trial lasted four days, and the median criminal trial lasted seven days. The 

average civil trial lasted almost five-and-a-half days, and the average criminal trial lasted eight 

days. Indeed, trials in our district often last for weeks or months. Statistics aside, in my 

seventeen years experience as a trial judge, it takes a total of more than a full day to select ajury, 
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Attachment 1 

sum up and charge in the most simple criminal or civil case. Thus, the numbers relied on in the 

Draft allow no time at all for the taking of evidence in single-day jury cases and less than a day 

for the taking evidence in two-day jury cases. For both reasons, these supposed statistics about 

median trial length are demonstrably incorrect and thus provide adequate grounds for rejecting 

the Draft. 

Even if these statistics were correct, the Draft oversimplifies the facts by implying that 

trials are the only use for courtrooms. It ignores conferences, oral arguments, evidentiary 

hearings, pleas and sentencings. It is beyond peradventure that all these non-trial activities, 

conducted in the courtroom, are necessary to the disposition of any case. The incorrect 

implication that these activities are not conducted in the courtroom infects the entire analysis of 

the Draft. 

The Draft oversimplifies the disservice to the public of rescheduling court proceedings by 

saying only that it costs the public time and money (Draft at 41). While that is correct as far as it 

goes, it ignores the severe difficulty, discussed at the Panel, that rescheduling presents to our pro 

se litigants. Those litigants generally are not easily reachable for notification of the rescheduling 

and often must plan ahead to take a day off from work to attend court proceedings. 

Rescheduling on the short notice apparently contemplated by the "modeling techniques" 

employed by the Draft would likely result in litigants' not receiving timely notice and thus being 

required to take an additional day off. Unexpected changes in location of a proceeding, even if 

on the same day at the same time, would certainly result in pro se litigants' missing proceedings, 

causing delay of the case and increasing the amount of pay lost to litigants due to court 

appearances. On the criminal side, the Draft also omits the damage (discussed at the Panel) that 

such rescheduling would cause to transparency of criminal proceedings when a defendant's 

family and friends are prevented from witnessing a trial, plea or sentencing. 

The supposed mitigating effect of "coordination ... as long as people remain flexible and 

the lines of communication remain open" (Draft at 41) oversimplifies facts and ignores 

discussion at the Panel. It also reflects a lack of understanding (or, in light of the specific 

discussion at the Panel of these issues, a refusal to acknowledge) the realities of what district 

judges do. As discussed at the Panel, a great deal of time is expended in district judges' 

chambers attending to schcduling and reschcduling ofprocecdings. Indeed, that activity 

consumes much of the ordinary courtroom deputy's time--even without courtroom sharing. 

What is unmentioned in the Draft, however, is the unanimous view of the judges present at the 

Panel and at the Moynihan Courthouse meeting that the kind of scheduling coordination that 

would be necessary for substantial courtroom sharing would be entirely unworkable and would 

result in serious disservice to thc judicial process and to the public we serve. While an easy 

palliative to invoke, the call for increased coordination (and the observation at page 41 that 

"court staff [in sharing arrangements] must work harder than in non-sharing arrangements to 

coordinate with judges and all involved parties to ensure that everyone is in the correct 

courtroom at the correct time") fails (or refuses) to acknowledge the opinion ofthe experienced 

judges in the trenches that it is easily said but impossible to achieve on a long term basis. It is 

also remarkable that factual information provided by a Clerk of Court on the Panel about the 

negative effect of courtroom sharing on case disposition times has been described in the Draft (at 

page 41) as an efficiency improvement. The Draft cites only thosc "facts" that support the 

2 
81 


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Attachment 1 

desired outcome and ignores the impossibility imposed by reality and brought to the drafters' 

attention by the judges who do this every day. 

The supposed mitigating effect of technology discussed at page 43 misstates what was 

said at the Panel and relates "facts" that show a serious lack of understanding of what goes on in 

a trial in a district court. At the Panel, the participants discussed greater use of 

videoconferencing in non-jury matters as a way to save courthouse construction costs. For 

example, it was discussed that some courts have eliminated the need for an additional place of 

holding bankruptcy court by use ofvideoconferencing from a normal room in a remote location 

to the bankruptcy courthouse. The Panel mentioned, as does the Draft, I the cost savings 

associated with conferences, including Rule 16 conferences and other pretrial conferences with 

incarcerated parties (although these savings are in time and travel costs because these 

conferences also take place from the courtroom). So far, so good. The unremarkable 

observation in the Draft that "increased technology saves money; it expedites general processing 

because documents can be submitted to the court electronically" (at page 43) has nothing 

whatsoever to do with courtroom sharing. The final observation in the Draft on this topic (at 

page 43) is "Another judge said that ifless money were spent on space, more could be spent on 

technological upgrades to increase flexibility and increase the ability to share space among 

judges." First, I do not recall hearing that comment, but, of course, it could have been made at a 

session I did not attend. Second, the comment is a meaningless non-sequitor. Third, and most 

importantly, by implying that technology will decrease courtroom usage, the Draft is seriously 

misleading. The Draft fails to mention that Rule 43 of the Rules of Criminal Procedure 

speci fically requires that the defendant be present in the courtroom at the initial appearance, 

initial arraignment and every trial day. Indeed, in the Second Circuit, a plea and a sentencing 

NOT held in a courtroom (but in the adjacent robing room) were reversed. See United States v. 

Alcantara, 396 F.3d 189 (2d Cif. 2005). Thus, the technology section of the Draft is at least 

irrelevant and at worst misleading. 

Discussion at the Moynihan Courthouse 

The Draft states categorically that "judges with experience in sharing courtrooms said 

that they overcame the challenges when necessary and trials were never postponed because of 

sharing." I suggest that the authors are cherry-picking the facts here. For example, the reason 

my court, the Southern District of New York, was chosen for a site visit is that our court is 

currently engaged in limited courtroom sharing (about ten judges total) because of the on-going 

renovation of our second courthouse at Foley Square, the Thurgood Marshall Courthouse, with 

the resulting scarcity of courtrooms. Both at the Panel and during the interview GAO personnel 

conducted in New York with judges who are sharing (at which, as noted above, I was present), it 

was stated that this limited sharing is only workable because of collegiality, that is, the sharing 

pairs were carefully chosen for compatibility of workload and personality. While the Draft does 

I On this topic, the Draft states: 

'Technology makes certain conferences easier through the use of teleconferences and 

videoconferencing. One judge said that videoconferencing with a defendant who was being held 

in prison hundreds of miles away saved potentially thousands of dollars." 

(Draft at 43). 

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Attachment 1 

mention the word "collegiality," stating at page 4 J that "[jJudges that share courtrooms in one 

district also said that coordination is easier when there is a great deal of collegiality among 

judges," it omits the point made at the discussion in the Moynihan Courthouse. Perhaps the 

Draft is making reference to remarks made in some other district, but, even if it is, it fails to 

convey accurately the statements of judges in our district who actually do share courtrooms and 

the statement that I made at the Panel. The careful pairing of judges on which the temporary 

sharing in the Moynihan Courthouse is proceeding cannot be replicated in the widespread 

sharing urged in the Draft. 

The Draft discusses alternating chambers with courtroom floors (Draft at 41-42) stating 

that such design "may be more conducive to collegiality and sharing." First, collegiality is not 

the issue here. Second, courtroom floors and chambers floors DO alternate in the Moynihan 

courthouse, and that has no effect on our view that courtroom sharing to the extent contemplated 

in the Draft is not a viable option among active judges and should be subject to local exemption 

for senior judges. While some designs might, in fact, be more conducive to courtroom sharing 

without unduly increasing security risks (for example, perimeter chambers around several 

courtrooms of varying sizes), alternating courtroom and chambers floors is not one of them. The 

observation that "this design breaks the apparent association of chambers with specific 

courtrooms without significantly increasing the distance from chambers to courtrooms" is simply 

irrelevant. 

The Model 

In support of its conclusion that "GAO's courtroom sharing model shows that there is 

sufficient unscheduled time for 3 district judges to share two courtrooms and 3 senior judges to 

share 1 courtroom" (Draft at 1), the Draft relies on a computer simulation model. In describing 

the creation of that Model, the Draft states: 

To create a simulation model, we contracted for the services of a firm with 

expertise in discrete events simulations modeling. This consulting engineering 

services and technology firm uses advanced computer modeling and visualization 

and other techniques to maximize throughput, improve system flow, and reduce 

capital and operating expenses. Working with the contractor, we discussed 

assumptions made for the inputs ofthe model and verified the output with inhouse data experts. We designed this sharing model in conjunction with a 

specialist in discrete event simulation and the company that designed the 

simulation software to ensure that the model conformed to generally accepted 

simulation modeling standards and was reasonable for the federal court system. 

The model was also verified with the creator of the software to ensure proper use 

and model specification. Simulation is widely used in modeling any system 

where there is competition for scarce resources. The goal of the model was to 

determine how many courtrooms are required for courtroom utilization rates 

similar to that recorded by F lC. This determination is based on data for all 

courtroom use time collected by FJC, including time when the courtroom was 

scheduled to be used but the event was cancelled within 1 week ofthe scheduled 

date. 

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Attachment 1 

(Draft at 56.) 

This description is, I suggest, merely gibberish and fails to inform the reader about 

precisely what assumptions were made and the method employed. To the extent that any 

assumptions are stated, the Draft states that it is "based on scheduled courtroom availability on 

weekdays from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m." (Draft at 56). First, these hours of operation are wholly 

unrealistic. Assuming that jurors would not be required to serve from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m., but only 

during a portion of that time, it is unrealistic to expect any juror to appear ready to start a trial by 

8 a.m or to serve until 6 p.m. Many jurors have children who need to be attended to and cannot 

appear in Court by 8 a.m. or sit until 6 p.m.2 

Assuming that the Model contemplates jury trials running in shifts, for example, 8 a.m. to 

1 p.m. and 1 p.m. to 6 p.m., such shifts would close to double the time it takes to try any case, 

thus vastly increasing the cost to the litigants. There is already public outcry over the cost of 

litigation,3 and doubling the cost of trial would be a severe injustice to the public we serve. 

Finally, from the scant description of the Model presented in the Draft and from the 

conversation at the Panel, I infer that the Model assumes all court proceedings are the same in 

kind and manner. Such treatment is directly contrary to fact and, more importantly for these 

purposes, contrary to the specific discussion at the Panel. Participants of the Panel specifically 

stated that courtroom proceedings are not intcrchangeable, especially trials and other evidentiary 

proceedings. A preliminary injunction hearing, for example, is by definition of great urgency 

and ordinarily must proceed from day to day until complete. Also, considering all trials as 

portable-subject to movement from courtroom to courtroom-is inaccurate. Even the Draft 

acknowledges (at page 35) that some courtroom use involves attorney set-up and break-down 

time (although the Draft incorrectly considered this as an "[ e ]vent[) not related to case 

proceedings"). These days, almost all trials involve the presentation of some evidence by 

electronic means, and lawyers (more likely computer contractors) spend time in advance of trial 

setting up their equipment for presentation of evidence electronically and time after trial taking it 

down. Most trials also involve boxes of files and other materials that are stored in the courtroom 

or in the hall outside the courtroom for ready access by counsel throughout the trial. Counsel's 

need for electronic equipment for presentation of evidence and for access to hard copy materials 

cannot be accommodated when the courtroom changes during a trial. 

2 In New York State Courts,jurors generally commence service between 8:30 and 9:00 a.m. and 

are generally dismissed between 4:00 and 4:30 p.m. The State Courts only draw jurors from a 

single county, however, while the SDNY draws jurors from eight counties, including from the 

cities of Poughkeepsie (85 miles) and Monticello (94 miles). 

J See I?\STITUTE FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE AMERICAI' LEGAL SYSTEM, CIVIL LITIGATION 

SURVEY OF CHIEF LEGAL OFFlCERS AND GENERAL COUNSEL BELONGING TO THE ASSOCIATION OF 

CORPORATE COUNSEL 17 (2010), available at http://www.du.edullegalinstitute/formchieflegal.html ("[A]n astonishing 97% of respondents responded that the system is 'too 

expensive,' with 78% expressing strong agreement."). 

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Attachment 1 

Conclusion 

The authors of the Draft have not reported accurately the statements of even those they 

recognize as experts-the members of the Panel and the participants in the site visit to the 

Moynihan Courthouse. To the extent that the assumptions and techniques used in the modeling 

were disclosed, they are counter-factual, according to the same experts. Thus, the Draft is 

without foundation and, I suggest, should be rejected. 

Moreover, the Draft relies on only one metric-efficiency. While efficiency is a fair 

factor to be considered, it is only one. Less susceptible to quantitative measurement, however, is 

a more important consideration-delivery of justice to the citizens of this country. I suggest that 

doing so in a user-friendly manner is inherently inefficient and thus that efficiency is only one of 

many factors to be considered. 

Very truly yours, 

Loretta 

~cl~ A. Preska 

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Attachment 2 

JUDICIAL CONFERENCE OF THE UNITED STATES 

STATEMENT OF 

JUDGE MICHAEL A. PONSOR 

CHAIRMAN, COMMITTEE ON SPACE AND FACILITIES 

BEFORE 

THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, 

PUBLIC BUILDINGS AND EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT 

COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE 

UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ON 

"ELIMINATING WASTE AND MANAGING SPACE IN FEDERAL 

COURTHOUSES: GAO RECOMMENDATIONS ON COURTHOUSE 

CONSTRUCTION, COURTROOM SHARING, AND ENFORCING 

CONGRESSIONALLY AUTHORIZED LIMITS ON SIZE AND COST" 

May 25, 2010 
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STATEMENT OF 

HONORABLE MICHAEL A. PONSOR, CHAIR 

COMMmEE ON SPACE AND FACILITIES OF THE 

JUDICIAL CONFERENCE OF THE UNITED STATES 

. BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, PUBLIC BUILDINGS, AND EMERGENCY 

MANAGEMENT 

MAY 25,2010 

Introduction 

Attachment 2 

Good morning, Madam Chair, and members of the Subcommittee. I am Michael A. 

Ponsor, a District Judge of the United States District Court in Massachusetts, and Chair of the 

Judicial Conference's Committee on Space and Facilities. Also accompanying me here today is 

Judge Julie A. Robinson, a District Judge from the District of Kansas. Judge Robinson is the 

Chair of the Judicial Conference's Committee on Court Administration and Case Management. 

The Committee she represents here today has assisted the Judicial Conference with the 

development of policy on courtroom sharing arrangements. I appreciate the opportunity to 

appear before the Subcommittee today to discuss the Govemment Accountability Office (GAO) 

draft report on Federal Courthouse Construction and efforts made by the Judiciary to manage the 

costs of the courthouse construction program. 

Before addressing these issues, however, I want to convey the Judiciary's appreciation to 

this Subcommittcc for the courthouses that have been authorized over the years, which include 

the courthouse in Springfield, where I work. These buildings provide secure places with 

adequate space to administer justice and ultimately, provide a valuable service to the public. 

The GAO's draft report focuses on courthouses that were built and occupied betwccn 

2000 and 2010, and addresses three main topics: space measurement; space projections; and a 

courtroom sharing model. My testimony will primarily focus on space planning processes and 
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Attachment 2 

efforts to control space costs. Judge Robinson will address courtroom sharing, and it is my 

understanding that Mr. Robert A. Peck, the Commissioner of Public Buildings of the General 

Services Administration, will give testimony that focuses on space measurement and issues about 

square footage limitations in authorizing resolutions. 

Evolution of the Planning Process 

By way of background, the Judiciary was one of the first entities in government to 

establish a systematic approach to space and facilities planning. It has continued to improve and 

refine its space planning process as more data are gathered and analyzed. The judiciary has been 

open to suggestions and improvements made by outside entities about the process, including 

those made by the GAO and private sector consultants. 

Predicting what will happen in the future is, to say the least, challenging, and the GAO 

has recognized these challenges. The GAO made six key planning reconunendations in its 1993 

report titled Federal Judiciary Space: Long-Range Planning Process Needs Revision 

(GAO/GGD-93-132, Sept. 28, 1993). The report noted that: 

GAO recognizes that it is difficult to project future space needs with precision. The 

projection of such needs is not an exact science, and in the final analysis, it is reasonable 

to expect some variation between the estimate and what is actually nceded. Space 

estimates are particularly challenging for the judiciary because thcrc are numerous factors 

that cause changes in the workload, and therefore space needs, which are beyond its 

control. 

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Attachment 2 

This sentiment has been repeated in the current 2010 GAO draft report: 

Limitations of the judiciary's 1 O-year judge estimates are also due, in part, to the 

challenges associated with predicting how many judges will be located in a 

courthouse in 10 years. Such challenges include predicting when judges will take 

senior status, how many requested judges will be authorized [by Congress], and 

where newly authorized judges will be seated. 

In an updated progress report dated January 25, 2001, which was provided to the Chairman 

of this Committee at the time, the GAO reported that, of all six recommendations made about 

space planning projections, the Judiciary had fully implemented five of them and partially 

implemented the remaining one. Specifically, the Judiciary now: 1) limits the time covered for 

space projections for courthouse requirements to 10 years; 2) uses standard statistical forecasting 

techniques to generate caseload projections with defined confidence intervals; 3) verifies local 

personnel forecasts with national statistical projections; 4) accounts for case complexity in 

addition to case1oad; 5) uses baselines for existing space based on the U.S. Courts Design Guide 

and the relationships between caseloads, staff needs, and space requirements; and 6) prepares 

updated space plans for all districts (partially implemented - the Judiciary established a goal to 

update the plans every 3-5 years, but with the introduction of a new planning methodology, the 

goal has not yet bcen met for some districts). 

Additional Efforts to Improve the Planning Process and Contain Costs 

Aside from implementing GAO's recommendations about planning and its associated 

statistical methodology, the Judiciary has implemented other improvements, including those 

recommended in a 2000 Ernst and Young study of the Judiciary's space and facilities program, 

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Attachment 2 

such as using more advanced statistical techniques to forecast caseloads. Some of the 

improvements that have been made include use of multiple forecasting methods, review of the 

accuracy of the prior year's forecasts, and re-instituting the on-site planning sessions in each 

district and comprehensive facility evaluations of each courthouse. These program changes have 

been discussed with GAO staff in the past. Furthermore, and perhaps most dramatically, the 

Judiciary stopped its space planning process entirely in 2004 so that it could, once again, reevaluate its planning methodology with a view on cost-contairunent. The Judicial Conference, the 

Judiciary's policymaking body, determined that the long-range planning process should be 

modified to ensure that the courts with the most urgent spaee needs were highlighted. The courts 

now employ a new asset management planning methodology to assess facilities needs on a goforward basis. 

Several other cost-contairunent controls have also been approved by the Judicial 

Conference. Additional space cost controls involving the approval of deviations from our space 

standards, a new policy that places more control over contractors designing courthouses during the 

requirements development phase so that new courthouse projects do not exeeed the amount of 

space rcquested in a prospectus document, and the implementation of courtroom sharing policies 

for magistrate judges and senior district judges have also been approved by the Judicial 

Conference. 

Determining the Appropriate Size of a Building is Challenging 

It can take upwards of 15-20 years from the time of initial planning to occupancy of new 

federal courthouses. During that time circumstances change: judgeship bills are not passed when 

anticipated, judges do not take senior status when planned, and judges retire or die. In addition, 

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Attachment 2 

caseloads can fluctuate, prosecutorial policies change, and federal jurisdiction can expand all 

impacting the workload of the federal courts. But once the decision is made to size a building 

based on a ccrtain set of asswnptions, it becomes very difficult and costly to change course midstream. To do so results in expensive change orders and a building that is not likely to meet longerterm needs. In my project in Springfield, it took more than ten years to get all the necessary 

approvals, and to design, construct, and occupy the building. 

The draft GAO report asserts that many courthouses have not been fully occupied and it 

suggests that what it then deems to be "excess" space constitutes a waste of funding. There are 

several reasons to question the validity of these conclusions. One key question concerns the 

nwnber of courtrooms and judges in these facilities. We are in the process of analyzing facts for 

the 33 buildings identified by GAO and we have found that in more than half of these buildings, 

the nwnber of courtrooms is either equal to the nwnber of judges in the building, or'l1rill be equal 

to or be very close to the number of judges to be housed in the building once vacancies are filled 

and required new judgeships are approved. It also appears from the draft report that GAO did not 

always take into account congressionally authorized vacant judgeship positions in its analysis. 

The building sizes authorized by this Committee assumed that vacant, congressionally authorized 

judgeship positions would be filled at these locations, that senior district judges and magistrate 

judges would not be sharing courtrooms, and that space would be provided for future new 

judgeship positions. It is more appropriate to apply the planning policies in place at the time to 

determine whether we met or came close to our projections. Undoubtedly, we will occupy a 

courthouse for many decades. Our revised analysis will give the Committee a more accurate view 

of how planned space relates to existing conditions at selected locations. 

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Attachment 2 

As the GAO notes in its draft report, there are locations where we did not meet our 

projections. Several of these buildings were planned at the inception of our planning process - a 

process that has evolved over time. With the adoption of courtroom sharing policies for senior 

district judges and magistrate judges approved by the Judicial Conference in 2008 and 2009, many 

of these locations will now be able to support the operations of the Judiciary and the U.S. 

Marshals Service well beyond the initially planned 10-year time frame. To say that the space is 

"extra" because of incorrect judge estimates, as noted by GAO in its draft report, is misleading. 

The space will be needed at some point in the near future. For example, it may not be needed 

until the 12th year or the 14th year from the time design of the building started, but it will be 

needed. 

Planning for New Judgeships 

The draft GAO report recognizes the challenges faced by space planners doing projections, 

such as projections of determining additional new judgeships. The Judicial Conference examines 

the need for new judgeships biannually and adjusts the recommendations based on current need 

and current caseload. Working collaboratively with the courts involved, assumptions are made 

about when judges will take senior status, and where new judgeships will be located. Not to plan 

for these projected judgeships would mean that a judge would potentially not have a place to work 

whieh could therefore impact the timely administration of justice. 

This was the situation for many years when Congress regnlarly enacted new judgeship 

legislation. In fact, up until 1990, Congress had passed comprehensive judgeship legislation about 

every six years, including 1978, 1984, and 1990. While Congress has not passed comprehensive 

judgeship legislation in recent years, small groups of judgeships have been approved during this 

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time. We are hopeful that the current House and Senate judgeship bills that reflect the 

Conference's recommendations will be passed. 

Attachment 2 

The draft GAO report criticizes the Judiciary for continuing to plan for space for these 

judgeships - however, if Congress had enacted our request, as they had historically done, and we 

had not planned chambers and courtrooms for these judges, there would have been a critical 

shortfall of space around the country. Nevertheless, we believe that on a go-forward basis, 

working with the Committee and its staff, assumptions about new judgeships and when judges 

might take senior status can be addressed. But beeause it can take such a long time for buildings 

to be planned, funded, designed, constructed and occupied, there is, of course, no guarantee that 

assumptions based on current, shorter-term circumstances and trends will always accurately 

predict future space needs. 

Visiting Judges 

I would also note that the GAO draft report mischaracterizes space provided for visiting 

judges by stating that it is a way of building "extra" space. In smaller courts with few judges, it is 

not unusual to have all the Article ill judges recuse themselves because of a connection or conflict 

with one of the parties. In other courts, judges are assigned from other districts or circuits to assist 

with a surge in workload. And, in some courts, judges travel from one division within a district to 

another because there are not enough judges at anyone location to handle the caseload. When 

these circumstances exist, smaller chambers and sometimes a courtroom dedicated to use by 

visiting judges is provided. Characterizing this space as "extra" space because it is not assigned 

to a specific judge demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how the judicial system 

operates at some locations. We will provide more detailed comments about this aspect of the draft 

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report in our fonnal comments. 

Conclusion 

Attachment 2 

Over the past two decades, this Committee has supported efforts to build courthouses that 

facilitate the effective administration of our judicial system. They provide space to handle cases 

at locations along the southwest border where courts handle a significant and growing percent of 

the criminal cases nationally. In many cases, the buildings have played an important role in urban 

economic redevelopmeat. And, they provide a secure environmeat in which to handle our 

caseload because they are designed to mitigate security risks, as evidenced in the shootings and 

resultant deaths that took place in the new Seattle courthouse and more recently, in the new Las 

Vegas courthouse. The design of the lobby in the courthouses at those locations did what it was 

supposed to do, and these incidents were contained to the lobby and atrium area. These design 

features no doubt saved the lives of members of the public and those who work in the buildings. 

Courthouses, like any substantial federally constructed buildings, are designed and built to 

last for many years. A courthouse is a fixed resource - if it is not built with sufficieat space to 

house the judges and staff necessary to dispense justice, it is difficult and costly to add space once 

the building is complete. Without precise knowledge of future events, planning can only be done 

based on the best infonnation that exists during the planning period. We would be happy to 

discuss with the Committee innovative ways of accommodating future growth, including 

projected new judgeships. We do strongly believe, however, that because of thc inability of real 

property to easily expand or contract as circumstances change, the capacity for future growth 

needs to be included in a new courthouse. Budgetary constraints are likely to preclude adding 

annexes to buildings that are too small within ten years from the time the design ofthe new 

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Attachment 2 

building started, which is the currcnt planning assumption. When capacity is not provided in the 

building, costly leased space - the most expensive space alternative - must then be obtained, 

which poses security risks and results in significant operational inefficiencies. 

Madam Chair and members of the Subcommittee, thank you again for the opportunity to 

address the space requirements of the federal Judiciary. The Judiciary and the GSA will continue 

to work collaboratively with each other and with this Committee as we plan new court facilities 

with an emphasis on cost and function. We understand that with competing needs, limited 

budgets, and other priorities, we must use limited resources wisely. I would also ask that our 

formal response to GAO's draft report, which will be sent to GAO by June 1,2010, be included 

with this statement as part of the hearing record. 

9