1

1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

2 ENVIRONMENTAL LISTENING SESSION

3 CO-HOSTED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF

4 ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY

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6 * * * * * * * * * *

7

8 EPA DOCKET NO. EPA-HQ-0A-2011-0166

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11

12 EPA ENVIRONMENTAL LISTENING SESSION

13 TUESDAY, MARCH 15, 2011

14 GALVEZ BUILDING

15 602 NORTH FIFTH STREET

16 BATON ROUGE, LOUISIANA

17 BEGINNING AT 1:00 P.M.

18

19

20

21

22 REPORTED BY:

23 APRIL M. LOMBARDINO, CCR

24 CERTIFIED COURT REPORTER

25

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1 (WHEREUPON THE LISTENING SESSION WAS CALLED TO

2 ORDER.)

3 MR. THERIOT:

4 I'm calling to order the Listening Session

5 sponsored by the EPA and DEQ. We have here Dr.

6 Armendariz and Ms. Peggy Hatch, whom I will let

7 introduce themselves to you before we go on any

8 further.

9 MS. HATCH:

10 Welcome. I appreciate everyone coming to

11 this Listening Session. It seems like just a

12 couple of days ago, but it was about a week and a

13 half ago, Dr. Armendariz sent me an e-mail and

14 said, would DEQ like to co-host a Listening

15 Session to address some of the issues that we

16 have up on the board. And I said, I would love

17 to. I think it's a great opportunity to have Dr.

18 Armendariz here. We work very closely together,

19 EPA Region 6 and DEQ. I am very happy with the

20 turnout.

21 With that, so we can stay on target for the

22 time, I'm going to introduce Dr. Armendariz,

23 Regional Administrator, EPA.

24 DR. ARMENDARIZ:

25 Thank you, Peggy. Good afternoon everybody.

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1 My name is Al Armendariz, and I am the Regional

2 Administrator at EPA Region 6. I want to thank

3 everybody for coming today. I want to thank

4 Secretary Hatch and DEQ for providing the

5 facility and for co-hosting this event with us.

6 I'm going to turn it over to our moderator

7 in just a second, but I do want to give you some

8 big-picture ideas of what I'm trying to

9 accomplish today and what I think would be a real

10 big benefit for us, for DEQ, and for the

11 stakeholders.

12 The President, in his State of Union

13 address, announced a commitment as part of the

14 agency's push to grow jobs, to pull us out of the

15 recession, to make sure that we don't have any

16 outdated or redundant regulations that cost

17 industry, that cost states, that cost local

18 governments but really do not provide any kind of

19 substantive benefit. So, he's asked the

20 different federal executive agencies to reach out

21 to their stakeholders to see if there are

22 suggestions for those things that need to be

23 streamlined, need to be modernized, need to be

24 gotten rid of, need to be kept, or need to be

25 strengthened. So, we are doing our own internal

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1 review of our regulations. Many of the other

2 federal regulatory agencies are doing that as

3 well, but we also wanted to make sure we provided

4 the public the opportunity to provide us with

5 input.

6 So, for those of you who are here and for

7 others that you know, I do want to let you know

8 that EPA has set up a website that you can get to

9 it from EPA.gov where you can submit official

10 public comments for this effort. So, you can go

11 onto the website and if you want to provide

12 information there -- You can even upload files.

13 You can have written comments to provide EPA with

14 your input on our regulations and on regulatory

15 efficiency and on regulatory streamlining. So, I

16 just wanted to let you know that if you don't

17 have the opportunity today to give us everything

18 and provide all the comments that you'd like, you

19 can certainly go onto our website and provide

20 something to the public record that way as well.

21 Now, today, what we decided to do is really

22 focus today's session on a couple of topics. I

23 will let our moderator go into some more of the

24 detail, but EPA looked at really the full scope

25 of what we do. And if you go onto our website,

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1 you can see that we are taking comments on a

2 whole host of issues ranging from children's

3 health, ranging from grants, and everything we do

4 in between. But one of the things that's in

5 there, and really the focus of today's town hall

6 meeting, is to take a look at monitoring, look at

7 technology, and look at compliance. Sometimes in

8 our rules and regulations we get very, very

9 specific about the kinds of things that we ask

10 the regulating community to do to demonstrate

11 that they are in compliance with their permits or

12 in compliance with the law. Other times, we

13 leave it very open and we don't get very

14 descriptive.

15 Now, I know for the first category,

16 sometimes those requirements are set in stone.

17 They are in the Federal Register. We tell you

18 exactly what you need to do in order to comply,

19 and sometimes those regulations are now 20 years

20 old and, perhaps, haven't been updated with the

21 new advances we have in computers, in the

22 internet, in miniaturization, in networks,

23 telecommunications, and so on.

24 So, when I called Peggy about a week and a

25 half ago, it was really to have a session where

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1 we can have people from really all the

2 stakeholder groups, the public, the environmental

3 community, the regulation community come and

4 provide us with information about how we can

5 improve our monitoring requirements, regulatory

6 compliance and still meet the matrix that all of

7 us want, which is clean air, clean water, and

8 proper waste management. So, if there are ways

9 we can still meet those goals but do it so that

10 there's less of a regulatory burden so that you

11 are not doing something, if you are a permit

12 holder, that is outdated and needless, we want to

13 make sure that you can take advantage of the most

14 recent technology.

15 Just as an example, many of the refining

16 industries we have in this part of the world have

17 to do leak detection. They have to do leak

18 detection to make sure that the valves, flanges,

19 and other pieces of equipment aren't leaking

20 material into the air like viologen compounds,

21 Benzene, those kinds of materials. And so, there

22 are regulations that have been around for a very

23 long time that require that they go and

24 periodically inspect their machinery. There's

25 this new technology out, and some of it was

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1 actually innovated and partially tested shortly

2 after Katrina down here in Louisiana using

3 infrared cameras. These cameras haven't been

4 around very long. It's been less than about five

5 or six years that they've been commercialized.

6 And with these little cameras now, you can

7 literally do leak detection on an entire line of

8 equipment in -- You can probably do the work

9 five, six times more efficient than you could

10 before with the old sniffer valve by valve,

11 flange by flange kind of method. And yet, in

12 some of our regulations we used to require the

13 valve by valve, flange by flange kind of method,

14 and the regulations weren't flexible enough to

15 take advantage of this new technology.

16 So, that's just one example of where, I

17 think for us to be good regulators, we need to

18 allow for and take advantage of and hear from you

19 where you think we can be more efficient.

20 So, with that, I will go ahead and turn it

21 over. There are some ground rules. We do have a

22 fair number of people here. Some of you are

23 listening, some of you will be providing comment.

24 So, we have a few ground rules set up so we can

25 make sure that we give as many people as possible

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1 the chance to provide us with input. Again, if

2 we don't get to you or if you have additional

3 information you want to provide, feel free to put

4 that on EPA.gov. Thank you.

5 MR. THERIOT:

6 Thank you, Dr. Armendariz. My name is Perry

7 Theriot. I am the Ombudsman for the Agency.

8 This is not a normal public hearing so we are not

9 subject to the statutes that usually put things

10 into an order that we are required to follow.

11 But using it as a guide, what was decided to do

12 is we are going to -- We took each person who

13 wanted to speak, we had them sign in, and they

14 put the time that you signed in. So, we are

15 going to take you in the order that they came at

16 the signing. If you wish to wait until the end,

17 you are more than welcome to say, I'd like to be

18 placed at the end, and I will move your speaking

19 and put it at the bottom of the pile so that

20 everybody -- Or if you don't want to speak, you

21 were going to speak but decided not to, I will

22 take it out as well.

23 We are going to try and -- Dr. Armendariz

24 went over most of what I was going to say. EPA

25 does have a docket number for this, which is

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1 EPA-HQ-OA-2011-0166. That docket number is used

2 when dealing with the compliance issues. So,

3 that has been entered in with the court reporter.

4 Your comments will be recorded, and they are

5 being filmed for future reference.

6 We are going to try to limit it to the

7 issues that Dr. Armendariz announced. As most

8 people who've attended a public hearing with me

9 know, I will give you a little bit of leeway, but

10 I won't let you go too far. So, when you come

11 up, keep in mind -- When you look up at the

12 screen up here, these are the things that we are

13 taking comments on.

14 Due to the number of people here, I'm going

15 to let each person speak for a little more than

16 five minutes. You will see me sort of signal

17 you. If you have a lot more than that, you can

18 wrap up what you're saying and we will put you on

19 the back and let you come back in and you can

20 finish up at the end. But we want to give

21 everybody an opportunity to say what they want to

22 say and get it into the record.

23 We have provided a regulatory reform comment

24 sheet that is available at the sign-in desk. The

25 written comments, along with the website, DEQ

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1 will take them and turn them in for you. And the

2 written comments are open all the way until April

3 4th. So, you will have a little bit of extra

4 time. And if you want to comment on any of the

5 other docket numbers included in this, that's

6 acceptable as well. The EPA, on it's website,

7 does contain these docket numbers that cover

8 other issues besides the one that we are

9 centering on today. They are holding other

10 hearings throughout the country, but they will

11 accept comments on the other areas. But, today,

12 we are going to try to stick with the ones that

13 are up on the board.

14 With that, I'm going to take the sign-in

15 sheets. Are there any questions from anyone

16 before we get started?

17 (NO RESPONSE.)

18 Okay. Then we will go ahead and get

19 started. Today's first sign-up is Mr. Henry

20 Graham, Jr. Mr. Graham is representing the

21 Louisiana Chemical Association; and if you will,

22 come up here to the podium.

23 MR. GRAHAM:

24 Good afternoon. My name is Henry Graham,

25 Jr. I am with the Louisiana Chemical

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1 Association, LCA's trade association representing

2 the chemical agencies in the State of Louisiana.

3 We have a couple of issues, and I'm going to

4 try to hit a few points, certain areas, and there

5 are some other speakers who will probably,

6 hopefully, elaborate on some of the particular

7 questions that you have.

8 The first area, the area of monitoring, for

9 example. We recognize the importance of using

10 the latest and the best technology in terms of

11 monitoring equipment. However, there are a

12 couple of things as an example that the

13 department may want to look at. For example,

14 sometimes you need to look at alternative

15 monitoring plans. This is an opportunity where

16 you and different technology can be tested. And

17 certainly, under the new source performance

18 standards or the National Emission Standard for

19 Hazardous Air Pollutants, those programs, if you

20 can get those alternative monitoring plans

21 approved more quickly, then DEQ and the

22 regulating community can try those approaches and

23 get some results back.

24 So, the first question, I guess, or

25 suggestion would be to promptly approve

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1 alternative monitoring plans because that's your

2 best chance to test out the technology that we

3 were talking about.

4 Often, sometimes, we also need to look at

5 what is a less costly method. Sometimes the

6 highest level of technology may also be cost

7 prohibitive. For the level of detection or the

8 work that's being done, for example, screening

9 protocols may not need to go to the highest level

10 of technology just because it is the newest and

11 the best. A lesser costly alternative may

12 actually help you and help others be more willing

13 to comply.

14 We suggest, also, that there are some

15 disincentives right now with stack testing.

16 Stack test results or permits are based on the

17 less specific AP 42 factors as a permit

18 deviation. So, it creates -- We think some

19 guidance is needed in developing relatively minor

20 variations from AP 42 factors. And, certainly,

21 that would help with some rule-making changes.

22 Some of the performance testing requirements

23 we think should be customized so that repeat and

24 frequent testing is not required when the initial

25 testing shows emissions well below the regulatory

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1 standard. We think that you should encourage the

2 use of standardized permit conditions that allow

3 step-down in monitoring frequency based on proven

4 performance over time so that you may take more

5 frequent measures but as you've demonstrated

6 containment, similar to what you do in some cases

7 with the LDAR program, but take that a step

8 further. There are other programs that could

9 benefit from that.

10 Certainly, we think the EPA should assist

11 DEQ with the cost of installation and operating

12 of some of the newer monitoring equipment. Your

13 guys have developed and looked at newer

14 monitoring. DEQ may not have the funding to put

15 the newer stuff in. And if there is any way

16 through grants or other programs or pilot

17 programs where you could provide some of that

18 equipment, that certainly would take a little bit

19 of a burden off of the agency to put those

20 monitors in.

21 A couple of things about streamlining

22 procedures. They should streamline the

23 procedures for location of monitors because,

24 sometimes, the monitor may have looked like it

25 was in the right spot but after working with it

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1 and the conditions, you find out that's not the

2 appropriate location. But, often, it takes a

3 long time to be able to change those monitors.

4 So, there's a resistance to do something

5 different because, oh, well, I've got this

6 location approved. It's easy to just put it back

7 in the same location or keep doing it the same

8 way I have.

9 Also, you might want to consider sometimes

10 you need to discontinue monitors when they are

11 not effective or when they have shown that the

12 results that you are not getting exceedances in

13 those areas allow for some transition where the

14 Department can take those limited resources and

15 refocus the monitoring to other areas that maybe

16 need more measurement, more effort.

17 A couple other things. We found this with

18 the Clean Air Transport Rules, for example.

19 Sometimes EPA needs to watch the models they use

20 to make sure that the modeling they use is

21 correct for the intended purpose. The utility

22 section IPM model that was used in the Transport

23 Rule was disastrous. It was very inaccurate and

24 produced results that were very much different,

25 often, in some cases, radically different than

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1 the actual monitoring data showed. So, we are

2 kind of concerned about an overreliance on

3 modeling. Sometimes, you actually have the

4 monitoring data. We understand the need to have

5 modeling, but predicting results when you don't

6 have the monitoring data -- Sometimes we are

7 concerned about the accuracy of the modeling

8 regime in some of the models that are chosen.

9 We also feel that if the monitoring network

10 -- For example, in ozone, that's established and

11 approved by the EPA and the data's gathered and

12 the data is verified as being correct, we don't

13 think that a model, which is less accurate,

14 should then overrule actual monitoring data. The

15 monitoring data that shows attainment should take

16 precedent over a theoretical model that may

17 predict in the future a different result.

18 There are a number of issues dealing with

19 the National Ambient Air Quality Standards

20 importation that are related to technology that

21 we just want to bring to your attention. As you

22 know, there are a number of changes in these

23 National Ambient Air Quality Standards over the

24 last couple of years coupled with the initiation

25 of greenhouse gas regulation, those are really

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1 taking a lot of resources or will take a lot of

2 resources both from DEQ and the regulating

3 community.

4 So, wherever possible, we think you should

5 realize that some of the timelines may need to be

6 extended. For example, the greenhouse gas

7 inventory. Some of those rules really hadn't had

8 time to start to actually implement better

9 monitoring equipment, better measured equipment.

10 You were forced to then give best estimates and

11 certainly less accurate methods.

12 MR. THERIOT:

13 Henry?

14 MR. GRAHAM:

15 Again, I will have others talk on some other

16 points. I appreciate the opportunity to come.

17 Thank you.

18 MR. THERIOT:

19 Thank you, Mr. Graham. The next person up

20 appears to be Mitchell, Mamie.

21 MS. MITCHELL:

22 Mamie. Let him go first, and then I'll come

23 later.

24 MR. THERIOT:

25 That's fine. Are you Mr. Gregory Mitchell?

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1 MR. MITCHELL:

2 Yes, sir.

3 MR. THERIOT:

4 Please state your name and who you represent

5 so that the court reporter can get it down.

6 MR. MITCHELL:

7 Good morning. How are you doing? My name

8 is Greg Mitchell. I'm from University Place

9 Subdivision in Scotlandville where there's a

10 sewer treatment facility.

11 First, let me back up and say thanks. We

12 really appreciate this conference that you guys

13 have put together. And, hopefully, we will have

14 some positive accomplishments out of this

15 conference.

16 As I was saying earlier, we live in

17 University Place Subdivision where there's a

18 sewer treatment facility owned by the City of

19 Baton Rouge, which has devastated our community

20 for over 15 years. And we are here to ask that

21 in the regulations if there would be some type of

22 buffer zone that would be created in between the

23 facilities, the community and those type of

24 facilities, which are placed in the communities.

25 Sewer flies are prevalent in our community.

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1 You have to eat sewer flies. The human waste

2 smells are horrible. We are just simply asking

3 -- And we are trying to bring this to the

4 forefront to ask the EPA to please come in, take

5 a look at what's happening, help our community

6 out, whatever technologies are available, let's

7 put them in place because our communities are

8 suffering.

9 We have gone to every extreme to try and

10 work with EPA, DEQ, and other departments to try

11 and bring awareness to this.

12 I'm going to show you pictures of the type

13 of sewer flies, which are flying around in the

14 communities on a daily basis. I wouldn't wish

15 them upon anyone's community. I've heard Mr.

16 Armendariz --

17 DR. ARMENDARIZ:

18 Armendariz.

19 MR. MITCHELL:

20 Armendariz spoke earlier about the

21 children's health. Believe me, sewer flies from

22 a sewer plant flying throughout your community on

23 a daily basis and you're having to intake these

24 things and the human waste smell, the property

25 values have been depreciated. We are simply in a

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1 city-created toilet. And if there are

2 technologies out there to help us -- Please visit

3 our community. It's one thing for us to be in

4 the meetings and talk about them, but it's

5 another thing to come out and take a look at it

6 and be a part of it and see what's actually

7 taking place.

8 And for the Louisiana Supreme Court to rule

9 that this is the way citizens of the State of

10 Louisiana, the City of Baton Rouge should live --

11 This is not the way citizens, taxpaying citizens

12 should have to live in their community.

13 We are asking, again, would you please --

14 I'm going to leave a packet with you. Would you

15 please take a look at North Baton Rouge,

16 University Place Subdivision? If you can, tour

17 the area before you leave Baton Rouge today,

18 tomorrow. I don't know when you guys are

19 leaving, but we will take the time to come out

20 and spend with you to let you see what's going

21 on.

22 Also, on tomorrow, we are -- Like as I said

23 earlier, this has been an ongoing problem for

24 over 15 years. On tomorrow, if you will have the

25 chance, we are having a community march which

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1 will start at the back gates of Southern

2 University and will end up at F.G. Clark Activity

3 Center. We are asking each of you, if you would,

4 please come and join us and you will see the

5 passion that this community has for this issue.

6 It's really, really bad.

7 Thank you for your time and we appreciate

8 you, and we look forward to working with you on a

9 positive role. Thank you.

10 MR. THERIOT:

11 Thank you, Mr. Mitchell. Okay. Ms.

12 Mitchell is going to waive her appearance. The

13 next one on my list is Mr. Michael Olivier or

14 Oliver?

15 MR. OLIVIER:

16 Mr. Theriot, you should know that's Olivier.

17 MR. THERIOT:

18 I got it right the first time.

19 MR. OLIVIER:

20 Yes. I'm Michael Olivier, Chief Executive

21 Officer of the Committee of 100 for Economic

22 Development, Inc. The Committee of 100 is a

23 private sector, statewide league of distinguished

24 critical thinkers, about 140 business CEOs and

25 university CEOs throughout Louisiana. I am not

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1 going to talk about monitoring equipment today.

2 My purpose here is to talk about why this region

3 hasn't been re-designated. We know that we have

4 acted on LDEQ's request, although numerous areas

5 have had their re-designation request taken care

6 of in a seven-month period, LDEQ has submitted,

7 several months ago, a request for re-designation.

8 That hasn't occurred, yet. It's affecting

9 economic development. That's our concern.

10 As an administrator, you understand. You've

11 heard about economic development. I know you are

12 not anti-economic development. You are

13 pro-economic development. Our concern is that

14 EPA's delay in re-designating the Baton Rouge

15 area to attainment is impacting the area's

16 economic development potential and our ability to

17 create jobs.

18 Job creation. President Obama has talked

19 about that often. We hope that he certainly

20 means that. We hope that new businesses who have

21 decided against coming to this area because of

22 the non-attainment status will look at us in a

23 different light if we achieve the attainment

24 status. So, your delay in granting the area's

25 re-designation request is hurting us.

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1 We join the Baton Rouge Area Clean Air

2 Coalition in requesting that Region 6 grant this

3 request without further delay.

4 So, on behalf of the area, the economic

5 development of the area -- Having served as

6 Secretary of Economic Development here in the

7 State of Louisiana from 2004 to 2008, I certainly

8 appreciate and I know you do as well, the fact

9 that we need economic development.

10 Thank you.

11 MR. THERIOT:

12 Thank you, Mr. Olivier. Next is Mr. Richard

13 Metcalf.

14 MR. METCALF:

15 I'm Richard Metcalf. I am the Director of

16 Environmental Affairs for the Louisiana Oil and

17 Gas Association. We appreciate the opportunity

18 to have this Listening Session and participating

19 with several trade associations on joint written

20 comments which will expound on comments that both

21 Henry and I will make today.

22 Dr. Armendariz lead me into my first issue

23 regarding smart leak detection and repair.

24 Industry. Many of the industries in the state

25 have already implemented that from a safety

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1 standpoint in turnarounds and stuff. Industry

2 worked very hard with the EPA to incorporate that

3 into the rules as an alternative for leak

4 detection. Unfortunately, when the rule came

5 out, there is still a requirement to do the old

6 method 21, which was disappointing to industry

7 because of all of our efforts. We do think that

8 the smart leak detection program is the proper

9 program to use as an alternative because it is

10 much more cost effective and much quicker in

11 finding the leaks.

12 The second issue deals with the monitoring

13 and requirements especially for the new ozone and

14 NOx standards. We want to be very cautious about

15 the monitoring problems because of the short

16 stacks and the effect short stacks would have on

17 any kind of monitoring put out in the system.

18 This is not just an industry issue. There are

19 thousands of short stacks put in and around the

20 City of New Orleans and Jefferson Parish that

21 under certain conditions, exhausts stay very low

22 and any monitor or modeling that's done with that

23 shows that they do not comply with the standards.

24 So, we caution the EPA to improve their

25 development of an implementation guidance from

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1 both modeling and monitoring standpoint. We are

2 working, specifically, already in the St. Bernard

3 area. We are looking at the monitor that's in

4 there, and we've already issued a modeling study

5 to see what potential causes are. So, we are

6 already ahead of the game in working that

7 standard.

8 Thirdly, from the oil and gas production

9 standpoint, we are cooperating and developing the

10 greenhouse gas emission requirements. But

11 because the EPA took an evasive approach versus

12 the individual facility approach, there are

13 numerous very, very small sources that are part

14 of one's operations in the basin that normally

15 would not be covered, and we may be asking for

16 some relief on those very small operations, in

17 estimating emissions from them. Once again, it's

18 not an individual point source facility basin.

19 It's all in your operations. The basin --

20 Essentially, south Louisiana is one basin. So,

21 you'd have to go through all of your facilities

22 in south Louisiana in aggregating that and some

23 of those may be very small.

24 Fourth, and my final one, is in the water

25 regulations. Can there be a process to allow the

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1 reduction of monitoring especially if over time

2 you showed continued good performance? Metro 21

3 area has got some reduction in the program, but

4 none of the other parts of the program allow for

5 a reduction in monitoring. Monitoring gets to be

6 very expensive and it exposes our people to the

7 hazards of our facilities. And so, if there is a

8 way to set up a policy or a program to allow for

9 the facility to apply for a cascading reduction

10 of monitoring based on continued good

11 performance, we would like to implement this.

12 Once again, I appreciate the opportunity to

13 speak here today.

14 MR. THERIOT:

15 Thank you, Mr. Metcalf.

16 Next I have a Mr. Jason Goodwin.

17 MR. GOODWIN:

18 Thank you. Good afternoon. My name is

19 Jason Goodwin. I am with Calpine Corporation.

20 Calpine Corporation is an independent power

21 company. We have operating power plants across

22 the United States that generate approximately

23 28,000 megawatts of electric power for customers

24 across the United States.

25 A couple of notable items. Our company is

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1 the nation's largest producer of geothermal

2 energy. We are also the nation's largest

3 producer of mine heat power. Those are what we

4 commonly refer to as the two main -- We kind of

5 refer to them as co-generation facilities, which

6 produce electric power as well as steam for our

7 customers.

8 Just a couple of items that we'd like to

9 bring to your attention today. To build on Mr.

10 Olivier's point, we are very interested in the

11 re-designation request for the Baton Rouge area.

12 As you know, the area has recently submitted a

13 request for re-designation to attainment having

14 demonstrated compliance with both the 1- and

15 8-Hour Zone standards. As was mentioned, the

16 uncertainty that goes along with that

17 re-designation, hanging in limbo, provides a

18 significant damper in terms of, certainly,

19 initial investment and plant upgrades, plant

20 expansions, things of that nature. So, again,

21 with that, we would encourage the agency to

22 continue working toward conclusion on that.

23 A couple of other areas we'd like to talk

24 about. As part of our compliance obligations, we

25 are required to monitor air pollute emissions.

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1 One of the programs that we offer is called Part

2 75, which is a continuous monitoring program.

3 That program allows us to use electronic

4 recording, submitting electronic reports as

5 opposed to paper reports. So, as we see with

6 other programs such as Part 60, which have

7 similar requirements and obligations, we'd like

8 to continue to ask the EPA to look toward

9 electronic media as a means of reporting,

10 eliminating paperwork, and things of that nature.

11 Yes, sir?

12 MR. THERIOT:

13 We had a request from the back of the room

14 to try and speak more into the microphone so that

15 people can hear you in the back.

16 MR. GOODWIN:

17 Sure. So, again, we would ask the agency to

18 try and utilize those electronic media wherever

19 possible. It eliminates some duplication in

20 terms of reporting, cuts down on paper use, and

21 things of that nature.

22 One other comment with respect to greenhouse

23 gas. That is a parameter that we have been

24 reported for years and also under Part 75. So,

25 from the prospective of large generating units,

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1 that really represents no meaningful change for

2 us. However, when you are looking at small

3 facilities, small back-up generators, small

4 intermittent sources, the additional burden in

5 terms of reporting relative to the contribution

6 portion of emissions represents a fairly

7 significant additional workload.

8 So, we'd ask the agency to consider whether

9 there is something dominative regarding reporting

10 online with service sources that could be

11 excluded out focusing on the larger and more

12 prominent contributors.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. THERIOT:

15 Thank you, Mr. Goodwin.

16 Our next speaker is Anna Hrybyk.

17 MS. HRYBYK:

18 Hi. My name is Anna Hrybyk. I am the

19 Program Manager at the Louisiana Bucket Brigade.

20 I've got a lot of comments. Hopefully, we can

21 run right through them. If I go over, just stop

22 me.

23 Currently, we are working on an initiative

24 called the Refinery Efficiency Initiative with

25 active community groups living next to refineries

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1 in St. Bernard, North Baton Rouge, and Shreveport

2 as well as with the regulators, EPA Region 6,

3 DEQ, and the United Steelworkers on the issue of

4 refinery accidents. We have been pressuring to

5 get industry involvement in this initiative for

6 the last year. And whatever you can do to help

7 that along, that would be wonderful.

8 Today, I am going to talk to you about

9 lessons learned from this initiative and our work

10 over the last ten years.

11 First off, Title V Clean Air Act and Clean

12 Water Act. The State of Louisiana and the USEPA

13 do a poor job of enforcing the Clean Air and

14 Clean Water Acts. The following suggestions

15 could help improve this.

16 First off, Clean Air Act fees. Under Title

17 V of the Federal Clean Air Act, the state is

18 required to permit and inspect large facilities,

19 monitor emissions at major sources and air

20 pollution in neighborhoods, and set standards.

21 The same law makes clear that major emission

22 sources are supposed to cover these expenses, not

23 the taxpayers. But our emissions fees are too

24 low. The federal minimum was $41 per ton of

25 pollution in 2008; the State of Texas averaged

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1 $32 per ton of pollution in 2008; yet Louisiana

2 emission fees average only $15 per ton.

3 We believe that the state is short-changing

4 public health due to this, and we think that an

5 effective monitoring program can't happen until

6 you raise the Clean Air Act fees. Often when the

7 state is asked why they do not have fence line

8 monitoring around all plants in the state, the

9 state response is that they do not have resources

10 to do such a thing.

11 When we publicized our request to the

12 governor to raise the Title V fees, the state's

13 response was that they did not need the extra $10

14 million in revenue because they were

15 consolidating offices.

16 The new standards that are supposed to limit

17 short-term exposure to sulfur dioxide in refinery

18 communities are long overdue. But these

19 standards will mean nothing if the state cannot

20 afford to collect the real time, not estimated,

21 data needed to evaluate exposure and cut

22 emissions to protect public health.

23 Budget shortfalls in the state have meant

24 that less than 50% of major facilities received a

25 full Clean Air Act compliance evaluation in 2008

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1 and 2009. This is despite the fact that EPA

2 policy requires 100% of major facilities to have

3 a full compliance evaluation every two years.

4 The state's low fee structure deprives the

5 hardworking environmental stewards at the DEQ of

6 the tools they need to do their jobs.

7 Permits. The permitting process for Title V

8 permits in Louisiana is severely inadequate

9 because they never include adequate real time air

10 monitoring as proof of compliance. The state has

11 consistently ignored comments from community

12 groups and groups like the Bucket Brigade on this

13 issue. We are forced to petition the EPA to

14 object to these permits time and time again and

15 pressure the DEQ to fix these dangerous errors.

16 One of those errors is estimated versus

17 actual emissions. In Louisiana, refineries are

18 permitted to use a variety of methods to estimate

19 their emissions, which include vague methods like

20 engineering judgment and emissions models that

21 are not approved by the EPA. Recent studies have

22 found that even EPA approved emission factors

23 like the AP 42 are grossly underestimating

24 emissions by 40 to 50%. Permits issued by the

25 state for air emissions should require facilities

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1 to prove their compliance with emission limits

2 with real time, web accessible, fence line

3 perimeter monitoring stations located in

4 surrounding communities, particularly at schools.

5 Community Air Monitoring Stations. The

6 state has enough resources and political will to

7 require fence line monitors as a part of all

8 future permits. Facilities should be required to

9 install community air monitoring stations around

10 its perimeter. This would include meteorological

11 equipment, monitoring and sampling equipment for

12 Hydrogen sulfide, Sulphur dioxide, VOCs and PM

13 2.5.

14 Continuous emissions monitoring systems

15 data. In order for LDEQ enforcement personnel to

16 do their jobs, permits should allow for CEMS data

17 to be publicly available to assist in permit

18 violation, investigations, and accident

19 investigations by both DEQ and concerned

20 citizens.

21 Number Two. Settlements. DEQ should be

22 more transparent and involve affected communities

23 in the negotiation of settlements with

24 facilities. Recently, LDEQ and Calumet Refining

25 in Shreveport came to a settlement behind closed

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1 doors even though the community has been meeting

2 with the refinery for years trying to improve

3 their quality of life. If the community had

4 known about the settlement, they could have

5 advocated for a beneficial environmental project

6 that was actually relevant for the community.

7 Number Three. Emergency Response During a

8 Chemical Accident. Currently, neither

9 petrochemical facilities nor the DEQ are required

10 to notify the community of a large release, above

11 reportable quantity, unless the facility deems it

12 hazardous. This presents a conflict of interest

13 because they are interested in protecting their

14 bottom line and not the public health. The only

15 way the public comes to find out that something

16 has been released is if the community calls the

17 media. The notification on the type of release

18 and the quantity does not enter public record

19 until at least seven days after the accident has

20 already occurred. This does not give communities

21 any information in the moment on how to protect

22 themselves and their children from harmful

23 chemicals.

24 Number Four. Environmental Justice. Lack

25 of regulation around chemicals. EPA needs to

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1 advance rulemaking to catch up to the more than

2 80,000 chemicals in use by the petrochemical

3 industry. Rulemaking needs to be more protective

4 of young children and elderly as well as take

5 into account vulnerability and proximity,

6 long-term health risks, and health affects of

7 chemical combinations not just one chemical at a

8 time.

9 Point B. Community Environmental

10 Monitoring. It is important for EPA/DEQ to

11 consider not just the monitoring systems needed

12 to ensure compliance but also how these

13 monitoring systems are used. There is an

14 excellent opportunity right now to achieve

15 environmental justice by employing fence line

16 community members as environmental monitors,

17 training them to take air, water, and soil

18 samples and to interpret and translate the sample

19 results for their communities. Simple

20 technologies like the bucket air sampling device

21 are inexpensive, easy to use, and do not require

22 a Ph.D. to operate it. Investing in community

23 training for this and other such devices like

24 FTIR spectrometers, passive water samplers will

25 have complementary benefits.

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1 Burdensome reporting requirements for

2 industrial polluters.

3 MR. THERIOT:

4 Ms. --

5 MS. HRYBYK:

6 All right. That's where I'll end. The rest

7 is all right here.

8 MR. THERIOT:

9 Are you going to be submitting those?

10 MS. HRYBYK:

11 Yes. I will give you some more copies.

12 MR. THERIOT:

13 Okay. Thank you. By the way, you can come

14 back later if you like after everyone has had a

15 chance.

16 MS. HRYBYK:

17 Okay. I'll come back.

18 MR. THERIOT:

19 Next on the list is Ms. Moore.

20 MS. MOORE:

21 I'm going to pass.

22 MR. THERIOT:

23 Okay. Ms. Shontelle Griffin.

24 MS. GRIFFIN-MITCHELL:

25 Good afternoon. My name is Shontelle

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1 Griffin-Mitchell, and I'm speaking on behalf of

2 University Place.

3 There's some things that has went on in

4 University Place that we truly disapprove of.

5 For one, the enlargement of the sewerage

6 treatment plant has violated us as far as our

7 homes. Where they place these tanks, they are

8 directly across the street from our house. You

9 can look down in the tanks. There is a mist that

10 comes from those tanks that constantly comes

11 over. The wind blows them upon us, our cars, on

12 our homes. It's damaging our homes. The sewer

13 flies. It's a constant problem. We've

14 complained over and over and over again. The

15 smell. Not only the smell of feces but the smell

16 of the chemicals when they try to cover it. It

17 doesn't help, either.

18 Those chemicals create health problems. My

19 son -- Well, all three of my kids. They have

20 asthma right now. And every time they go there,

21 they have an asthma attack. If it's not from the

22 chemicals, it's from the smell.

23 They also gave to my mother-in-law, that's

24 across the street from the plant, things to treat

25 her house as far as the smell. They give her

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1 sanitizer. They give her air freshener from the

2 City, Parish. And also a chemical spray to kill

3 the bugs, which don't kill the sewer flies

4 because they are constantly flying. They are

5 matted on the house. I think there's unfair

6 justice in this. I think that because of the

7 city, some things were done unfairly. We went

8 through 15 years of fighting. The U.S. Court

9 Justice System told us that it shouldn't be a

10 problem. Well, if we took that sewer treatment

11 plant and put it out there on the golf course,

12 would it then be a problem?

13 I mean, they expect us to live through this,

14 constantly, without anything being said and

15 nothing to be done. They granted us $20,000 out

16 of a whole community. $20,000 to pat us on the

17 back and tell us because of the house -- Not

18 because we, as people, but because the house

19 suffered, which I didn't understand that. And

20 then they only granted it to only one house after

21 they moved one or two others.

22 They removed the park in order to put the

23 sewer treatment plant here. When it started out,

24 it was a small facility. A very small little

25 pump. Now, we have a full fledged facility that

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1 has five or six tanks that sit there in front of

2 my house, my mother-in-law's house. And we've

3 contacted several different people. We've

4 contacted LEAN, Senator Mary Landrieu's office,

5 Bill Cassidy, Governor Bobby Jindal's office,

6 Mayor Kipp Holden, which we have his testimony

7 before he made Mayor. We also have the prior

8 Mayor telling me when he leave office to contact

9 him, and then council members and the councilman,

10 Ulysses Addison.

11 MR. THERIOT:

12 Ms. Griffin?

13 MS. GRIFFIN-MITCHELL:

14 Yes?

15 MR. THERIOT:

16 I have to remind you. I let you go a little

17 bit afar of what the docket is today.

18 MS. GRIFFIN-MITCHELL:

19 I understand.

20 MR. THERIOT:

21 That's not a problem. I'm not going to stop

22 you, but try and keep your comments close to what

23 is docketed here, and you can continue.

24 MS. GRIFFIN-MITCHELL:

25 Okay. Not only did we contact them, but we

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1 contacted the DEQ and the EPA and the Department

2 of Justice.

3 So, I'm saying all of that to say that they

4 offered to give us bottle tops. That's an

5 upgrade that's supposed to cut the smell. Well,

6 guess what? Bottle tops is only going to cut so

7 much. It don't cut the feces smell, but they

8 call that an update.

9 And you know, I mean, I just don't know

10 where to turn. We've talked to you guys. We've

11 sent letters. And as far as upgrade the system,

12 that's fine, but I would recommend that you have

13 someone from the federal level come down and

14 regulate when they are building and expanding

15 these facilities, that they are not intruding on

16 our homes.

17 The city has allowed them to put these tanks

18 closer to the street, closer to the neighborhood

19 when they could have went further back towards

20 the river. So, maybe if we would have had

21 someone to regulate that from the federal level,

22 maybe we would have had better justice than what

23 we have now.

24 So, basically, I'm just saying that we need

25 a little bit higher authority than the local

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1 level.

2 Thank you.

3 MR. THERIOT:

4 Thank you, Ms. Griffin.

5 Next, Ms. Maureen Harbourt.

6 MS. HARBOURT:

7 Good afternoon. I would like to start by

8 thanking the EPA and DEQ for co-hosting this

9 Listening Session. I believe it's a great idea.

10 As you can see, there's a lot of interest here on

11 diverse topics, and I would like to encourage the

12 EPA to start a program of doing something like

13 this for an afternoon maybe three or four times a

14 year in each of the Region 6 states. I think

15 it's very helpful to get us all together. Again,

16 thank you very much for hosting this. It's a

17 great idea.

18 I will be submitting written comments. I am

19 with Kean Miller law firm. We are counsel for

20 the Louisiana Chemical Association and other

21 individual companies that are regulating

22 industries. I will make my comments very brief

23 and try not to cover subjects that others have

24 already covered.

25 One of the things that we would like to

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1 encourage the EPA to do is streamline the program

2 for approval of alternative monitoring plans

3 under the NSPS standards. In many cases, the

4 submission of an alternative monitoring plan

5 takes a year or more to approve. Some rules

6 provide that approval is retroactive to the date

7 of submittal and other's don't. We think that

8 could benefit from some streamlining, and we will

9 have some written suggestions on that process.

10 The EPA should also encourage the use of

11 standardized permit conditions in all of their

12 permitting programs: Air, water, and waste that

13 allow a step-down in monitoring frequency based

14 on proven good performance over a reasonable

15 period of time. That's, of course, taking into

16 consideration age of the agreement and other

17 factors. In particular, in water permits in the

18 LPDs and the PDs permits, there is guidance about

19 the step-down, but the cost, the provisions are

20 not self-implementing. It takes a permit

21 modification, and there are very few

22 opportunities for minor modifications. So, in

23 essence, that means that you really have to wait

24 until there is a permit renewal cycle. So, if it

25 was built into the permit as a specified

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1 standardized permit condition, that would work

2 much better and still achieve the environmental

3 objectives.

4 We would suggest that the EPA consider

5 having a Clean Air science advisory committee

6 panel over models specific to model development

7 and use. As one of the prior speakers mentioned,

8 we've seen the use of models that are

9 inappropriate to the task. A lot of times people

10 are taking models and shoehorning them into

11 applications for which they were not intended. A

12 prime example was the use of the IPM model which

13 was developed from the utility projected economic

14 information, and it was used in the Clean Air

15 Transport Rule proposal that resulted in some

16 significant errors that caused EPA having to go

17 back out with the notice of date, availability,

18 and re-do the entire model based on a lot of new

19 data inputs.

20 In addition, we think that it's critical for

21 the increased use of models that we see that

22 there be a very good initial inventory. In

23 particular, on areas that probably less attention

24 has been devoted to. For example, in the Clean

25 Air Transport Rule, there were gross errors in

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1 the inventories concerning marine vessel

2 emissions. For Louisiana, for example, over

3 70,000 tons of NOx was from marine vessels that

4 are actually located and operated outside the

5 Louisiana statutory boundaries that Louisiana was

6 not responsible for but were attached in

7 Louisiana's data thereby skewing what the effects

8 were for our state. Those offshore emissions

9 exist, but they need to be temporarily inspected

10 and located appropriate if there are to be good

11 use of models and projected emissions so that

12 everyone knows what emissions we really have and

13 how to control them.

14 EPA should, on the LPS and DPS Program,

15 consider amending the rules to allow for more

16 modern modifications not just in the area that I

17 mentioned, the issues of monitoring frequency,

18 but having more flexibility would also

19 potentially allow changes in monitoring methods

20 to allow more use of innovative monitoring in

21 development. Again, with the very straight

22 jacket modern modification process, there are

23 only, I can probably count on my hand, things

24 that you could do underwater. And therefore,

25 changing your monitoring system is very

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1 difficult.

2 In addition, other than the LPS Program, EPA

3 should evaluate whether continued bio-monitoring

4 at the same levels, certainly the same

5 requirements, are necessary. There's been a

6 wealth of data developed over the last decade

7 about bio-monitoring, and it has provided a lot

8 of good information. But the question is: Is

9 there a continued need for the level of detail in

10 those programs? It's a very expensive annual

11 requirement for some facilities. So, there could

12 be some improvements in how bio-monitoring

13 programs work.

14 Again, thank you for the opportunity for

15 comments.

16 MR. THERIOT:

17 Thank you, Ms. Harbourt.

18 Okay. Can you state your name and address?

19 I think you are Ms. Griffin?

20 MS. MITCHELL:

21 No. I'm Mamie Mitchell.

22 MR. THERIOT:

23 Okay. And you had earlier waived?

24 MS. MITCHELL:

25 Yes. And thank you for allowing me to.

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1 First of all, I want to say thank you all for

2 having this session here in Baton Rouge. Thank

3 you. We really appreciate it. Again, my name is

4 Mamie Mitchell. I live at 9958 Avenue M in

5 Scotlandville, Louisiana. It's just outside the

6 gates of Southern University.

7 My problem is sewer flies, maggots, you name

8 it, snakes, roaches, everything. We just live in

9 our own jungle back there. I have the sewer

10 plant in the neighborhood too, but my house is

11 sitting directly in front of all of them tanks

12 there. And it causes all the sewer flies. I've

13 had people out from the Health and Hospitals, Mr.

14 Jones and all have been there. And they've

15 agreed that it's a problem, but nothing has been

16 done. EPA, we've met with them. Nothing yet has

17 been done.

18 Meetings are fine, but actions speak louder

19 than words. And I think something needs to be

20 done. If you all can help us, we would

21 appreciate it.

22 The sewer plants continue to not meet the

23 mandate and requirements that are supposed to be

24 done. They are supposed to meet certain

25 requirements. They don't meet these requirements

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1 and still nothing is done. They need to either

2 be shut down or something needs to be done.

3 I think from the very beginning to allow

4 this to be put into a neighborhood was wrong,

5 from the very beginning. When you all allowed it

6 to happen, you were just as involved as the city

7 was. So, I feel that something needs to be done

8 to help us. And if you can do anything to help

9 us, please do so. Like I said, I may be out of

10 order by saying this. I can't even have my

11 grandchildren over to enjoy the outside because

12 of flies.

13 I've had businesses come to my house and

14 tell me they won't be back anymore. A lady

15 swallowed a sewer fly by coming to my door. So,

16 I know that there is something. Nobody should

17 have to live in a situation like this. It is

18 ridiculous. There's breathing problems back

19 there. Most of us are on oxygen tanks. You talk

20 about clean air. Where is it? You have to leave

21 out of your house and go somewhere to try and get

22 clean air. What do you do for Baton Rouge,

23 itself, to have clean air?

24 Not only the sewer plant but the plants and

25 all this. We are surrounded by all of this. So,

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1 I know that the EPA, whoever can do something to

2 help us with this situation.

3 Thank you.

4 MR. THERIOT:

5 Thank you, Ms. Mitchell.

6 Next on here is Marylee Orr.

7 MS. ORR:

8 I wasn't going to say anything, but that's

9 difficult for me. Thank you so much, Dr. Al,

10 Secretary Peggy. It's a real pleasure to see

11 you. Thanks, everybody, for showing up here.

12 I'm going to deviate a little bit, and we

13 are going to hand in written comments, but I

14 don't have them with me today. I'm here for my

15 members at University Subdivision because the way

16 they live, no one should live, certainly in 2011.

17 I can testify, myself, going out there and seeing

18 the odors and the sewer flies and the conditions

19 that they live in and what Ms. Mamie said is

20 right, she can't have her grandchildren come out.

21 Who would want to come visit this community? And

22 their voices have gone unheard.

23 I thank you very much, Dr. Al, for sending

24 out folks from EPA. We were meeting with DEQ,

25 too, but they were busy that day. We certainly

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1 hope there's going to be a follow-up about the

2 situation.

3 There's other things. A lot of our focus is

4 on lack of enforcement, things that are not

5 getting done. We found it necessary to send a

6 lot of notice letters to folks to try and

7 encourage them to come into compliance.

8 Sometimes, unfortunately, we have to file suit.

9 Recently, we won a lawsuit in Belle Chasse

10 against Sun Drilling. We were concerned because

11 their discharge was right down from the drinking

12 water intake, downstream from the facility.

13 I mentioned University Subdivision. That is

14 a great concern to us.

15 Of course, the air quality issue is

16 something Richard Henry -- and I know other

17 people have mentioned as well -- We are very

18 concerned about the negative impact on the health

19 of the people that live here, live close to the

20 industrial facilities that are not in compliance.

21 Accident releases and other conditions frequently

22 negatively impact the air quality in our area.

23 There's a need for appropriate technologies

24 to be installed to measure and monitor the

25 chemicals being released around these events. We

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1 need some mechanism that there is an easier way

2 for industry to be encouraged to do the right

3 thing, in our opinion, to make it safer for us to

4 live next door to them.

5 One of the things we've been working on,

6 and, again, I may be a little out of the realm

7 here but I want to bring it up. It's the

8 Haynesfield Shale. This is something that we are

9 working on, very closely. The Office of

10 Conservation has permitting authority of the

11 wells in the Haynesfield Shale. The DEQ has

12 authority over air emissions, waste water from

13 the drilling, fracture that they've got to show

14 the natural gas as well as the air emissions,

15 compressor stations, and pipelines. There's a

16 real need for EPA to exercise it's oversight

17 authority over DEQ. Specifically, focus on air

18 emissions and waste water streams associated with

19 the Haynesville Shale.

20 At some point I'd like to, and I don't know

21 if it's appropriate, Dr. Al or Secretary Peggy,

22 you might can answer this. It's like all family

23 here.

24 Certainly, during the BP oil spill, for us,

25 we were very frustrated about the problem with

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1 new technology. I think that you had like 10,000

2 people show up at the Command Center to try to

3 implement new technology. We are using

4 technologies that were used 20 years ago. There

5 is absolutely no mechanism or conduit for people

6 to get relief on that. I just wanted to bring it

7 up because it's been a great source of

8 frustration. I don't know if you've even had an

9 opportunity to meet with the folks to really

10 discuss it, but I just wanted to bring it up. We

11 will have more specific written comments.

12 We thank you so much for having this, and I

13 agree with Maureen, we need to have them more

14 often. Thank you.

15 MR. THERIOT:

16 Thank you.

17 Okay. Ms. Moore, what's your first name?

18 MS. MOORE:

19 Iceola.

20 MR. THERIOT:

21 Iceola. Okay. Thank you.

22 MS. MOORE:

23 My name is Iceola Moore. I live about a

24 block -- I live on Avenue L, and the sewer plant

25 is on M, directly in front of my house. Directly

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1 in front of my house. And the scent have all of

2 us sick. My grandchildren. I raised a good bit

3 of them. And my eyes too. They suffer with

4 running eyes, sneezing, coughing. I had one girl

5 stay out of school two years with a cough right

6 behind one another. Just cough, cough, cough.

7 The flies. They are covered on the door.

8 And they'll be back, more, when the summertime

9 come. They be black, just cover up the door.

10 After I put the screen door up. Before I had the

11 screen door up, I just had the bugs in there.

12 They come through.

13 I was eating breakfast, cereal and milk. I

14 looked down. Something was tasting kind of

15 funny, kind of cracking like in my mouth, and I

16 was eating flies. They had just come in and fell

17 in my milk. I'm watching TV and when I taste a

18 funny taste, that made me see what I -- Flies. I

19 had to hunt me a screen door and make it myself

20 and put it up there for the flies. It just be

21 something back there.

22 We need to be out from back there. We

23 didn't have that when we first moved back there.

24 It was a good subdivision. But after they

25 brought the plant back there, back there around

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1 '97, it really got bad back there. The files

2 done took over, and you have gnats and flies and

3 everything sometimes. It looks like nothing you

4 do helps them. It looks like it gets more. I

5 have a daughter who is sick. Carrying her to the

6 hospital and still have to take her -- She has to

7 take breathing treatments now. The other day --

8 Running eyes, nose running. It looks like some

9 of everything just happened. I stay sick all the

10 time because I have a dry cough. And the cough

11 go and come.

12 We just need to be out from there.

13 Something needs to really improve to get us out.

14 She had a teacher come into the house to

15 teach her. The teacher got sick. Two teachers

16 got sick. They had to send a third teacher. The

17 third teacher kind of stuck it out until two

18 years. And then the year she had to go back to

19 the school, she couldn't stay in school because

20 she was getting back sick again, and teachers

21 were calling for me to come and get her and bring

22 her home. They didn't want her in school because

23 she kept coming up with coughing, sneezing, and

24 looked like just everything.

25 I hope y'all will do something for getting

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1 us out from back there. It's really bad back

2 there. You need to come back there and just see.

3 Just come and see for yourself.

4 And the scent will wake you up at night.

5 You'll be sleeping and it will wake you up. It

6 comes through the cracks of the house. When they

7 were drilling, the house started cracking from

8 that drilling. We get the scent coming in there.

9 And then we get the bad water, too. The

10 water be rusty colored looking. You put it in a

11 clear glass, look at it, it's brownish. It's

12 rusty. And it leaves a -- It's on the glass,

13 brown looking, when you have your water. Go and

14 coming. It might clear up a little bit. After a

15 while, it's right back brown.

16 Something really needs to be did about back

17 there. Thank you.

18 MR. THERIOT:

19 Thank you, Ms. Moore.

20 Next. Mr. Willie Fontenot.

21 MR. FONTENOT:

22 Thank you. My name is Willie Fontenot, and

23 I'm currently serving as Conservation and Chair

24 of the Delta Chapter of the Sierra Club. I'm a

25 lifelong resident of Louisiana. Just a little

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1 background. April of 1978 to April of 2005 I

2 served as a Community Liaison Officer for the

3 Louisiana Attorney General's office. My job was,

4 basically, to work with individuals, groups,

5 businesses, local government, news media, and

6 others to try and help them with environmental

7 problems, questions, and issues. I worked with

8 groups across Louisiana and about 30 other

9 states.

10 You are correct that this is a reasonably

11 good turnout; but if the Environmental Protection

12 Agency and the Department of Environmental

13 Quality are really serious about trying to reach

14 out and connect with the public, this meeting is

15 a failure because there should be five or six

16 thousand people in this room. We have one small

17 community from North Baton Rouge that has had

18 several residents speak. And then the only

19 residents who've spoken here spoke about some

20 environmental problems. Particularly

21 representatives from major industry is here

22 today, but none of the people who live near those

23 industries are here because they don't know about

24 this meeting. If they do know about the meeting,

25 the really felt like it's pointless to show up

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1 because they've been to committee meetings. I

2 think the EPA and DEQ need to do a much more

3 serious job of reaching out to the public and

4 educating the public to get them more involved in

5 the decision-making process. It's a little

6 easier to say than to do.

7 I think it's a failure of the whole

8 environmental program at the state and federal

9 level, public has not been able to be more

10 informed and more involved in the decision-making

11 process. Industry has complained about a lot of

12 the details and current law and regulations about

13 the reports they have to fill out, monitoring

14 that they have to do, such as fence line

15 monitoring discussed several times in this

16 meeting. I would say that fence line monitoring

17 can provide some things, but the things they are

18 monitoring for only gives you a sense of what

19 might be in the pollution or in the air. It does

20 not give you a real defense. And monitoring the

21 fence line does not necessarily tell you what

22 people are getting in their communities beyond

23 the fence lines. It also doesn't provide the

24 workers in those industries with adequate

25 information about what they are being exposed to.

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1 I haven't heard any workers from any industry in

2 here today talking about what kind of conditions

3 they have to deal with. Some of these industries

4 are extremely hazardous, as you well know, and

5 the real fence line monitoring that needs to take

6 place needs to have the workers of these

7 industrial facilities more adequately educated

8 about what they can do to make themselves safer

9 in their workplaces and it would really help the

10 communities around those facilities be much safer

11 communities.

12 The industry is very good today about

13 extending security. They hire off duty police

14 officers but their plant security stops at their

15 fence line. So, they have off duty police and

16 sheriff's deputies that, basically, gives them an

17 extension of security many miles from their

18 facility. But they don't do any extension of

19 monitoring for what sorts of pollution might be

20 in the air and the water, and I think the

21 industry needs to do a much, much better job of

22 making sure that their operations are not

23 adversely impacting the lives of the people

24 around their facilities and their workers.

25 I will be sending in some written comments.

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1 Thank you very much.

2 MR. THERIOT:

3 Thank you, Mr. Fontenot.

4 Ms. Mary Williams.

5 MS. WILLIAMS:

6 Good afternoon. Thank you for this

7 opportunity to come and listen to the voices of

8 the community.

9 My name is Mary Williams, and I'm a Program

10 Manager for Community Outreach at Dillard

11 University, South Central Environmental Justice.

12 I come to speak up and provide a voice for a

13 community in New Orleans East against a plant, a

14 gasification plant. That's basically technology

15 where they are producing waste to energy.

16 We've done our homework on this particular

17 technology and has found that the technology,

18 first of all, has not been approved here in the

19 United States and some of the areas where the

20 technology has been used in Japan and Germany,

21 has failed. So, these communities where the

22 gasification plants have been have had

23 explosions. The energy, waste to energy that is

24 produced has not been found to be true.

25 This particular community, one of the things

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1 they are concerned about is the pollution, first

2 of all, coming from that plant. But also from

3 the diesel trucks.

4 We have met with Sun Energy about two years

5 ago. About 28 neighborhood associations came

6 together and expressed some of their concerns.

7 One of the things that Sun Energy said they

8 would be doing with the type of traffic in that

9 particular community, 17 diesel trucks per day,

10 for 16 hours a day, every day, running through

11 that community. And this particular plant that's

12 proposed is about half a mile away from a very

13 small subdivision, Allison community, and in very

14 close proximity to many conveniences, and New

15 Orleans East.

16 One of the other things we are asking is the

17 EPA to help us because we've written several

18 letters at the time to Mayor Nagin and the

19 Department of Environmental Quality. Our concern

20 is this community is already inundated with

21 pollution. There's 27 illegal dump sites in that

22 community. So, we are asking that an

23 environmental analysis be done before this

24 particular plant is given a permit.

25 Also, we want to make sure that there's some

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1 policies that are in place to ensure -- I know we

2 want new technology, but we want to make sure

3 that this technology is safe. So, to make sure

4 that if technology has been proven, even though

5 it is new to the United States, to make sure that

6 it's been proven to be safe in these communities.

7 Thank you.

8 MR. THERIOT:

9 Thank you, Ms. Williams.

10 Now, that covers everyone who initially

11 signed. So, what I would normally do in most

12 public hearings, right now, is open the floor to

13 anyone who didn't sign up who wants to make a

14 comment into the record or who might have spoken

15 before and whom I stopped before they were

16 finished. So, at this time, if someone wants to

17 do some additional speaking, this would be the

18 time to do it.

19 When you come up, please state your name,

20 your address for the record, and who you

21 represent.

22 MR. HAMMATT:

23 Hello. My name is Bruce Hammatt. I'm

24 representing Bruce Hammatt. My address is 141

25 Hammatt Drive in Baton Rouge.

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1 I appreciate the opportunity to come up

2 here, and I appreciate the opportunity to have

3 you over here. And I thank you for your time in

4 putting this on, too.

5 You had mentioned the issue of the leak

6 detection in the repair process and the cameras.

7 I was lucky enough a few years back to have that

8 camera in my hands a couple of times, and it's a

9 very important tool. I think it should be used a

10 lot more than it is now.

11 The Department of Environmental Quality with

12 primary funding from the EPA did a significant

13 study, a couple of studies, using the hand-held

14 camera there. And we did find that there were a

15 significant number of emissions from the

16 transportation industry that are not being

17 captured right now. The ozone modeling in Baton

18 Rouge does not capture it, has not captured it.

19 The modeling program does not even include a

20 component for that. The emissions that came from

21 the mobile sources, the barges on the Mississippi

22 River, were quite significant. I think the

23 information is in the records here with the

24 Department or the contractors. I will tell you

25 that the EPA contractors and the Corps of

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1 Engineers worked with us on that study, and I

2 think that that information needs to be included

3 in the ozone monitor, and I think in the ozone

4 modeling effort. And I also think that there

5 needs to be a federal program, either EPA or the

6 Coast Guard, that actually looks at those

7 releases and tries to minimize them because they

8 are quite significant. When you take a look at

9 the total emissions in Baton Rouge, those are

10 extremely high. And with the Intercoastal

11 Waterway here in Baton Rouge with the barge

12 mooring spots along the river right here, with

13 the lock system on the Intercoastal where the

14 barges have to sit and wait to be let through or

15 into the Intercoastal or into the river already

16 coming from Houston or Lake Charles or something,

17 and waiting in the Intercoastal is quite

18 significant. It also, I think, impacts the

19 location of the air monitors that we have in

20 Baton Rouge.

21 For an example, the air monitor there at the

22 LSU station is right across the river from the

23 monitor. In many cases, when we were looking at

24 the sources of contamination on days where we

25 were not predicting or the Department of

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1 Environmental Quality was not predicting an ozone

2 event, and we had one, the winds were from the

3 direction that could indicate that they were

4 coming from these mobile sources. Again, those

5 mobile sources are not being truly regulated by

6 any agency. If you take a look at the impacts to

7 the community, to the citizens of Baton Rouge

8 from sources that are unregulated or unmonitored

9 or kept at a minimum, I think it's quite

10 substantial.

11 And, Willie Fontenot, I will tell you that

12 I'm representing myself as a private citizen here

13 that's not working for the Department or not

14 working for industry.

15 Thank you very much.

16 MR. THERIOT:

17 Thank you, Mr. Hammatt.

18 Does anybody else want to come up and speak?

19 We have one person raising their hand. Two.

20 Okay. Mr. Fontenot.

21 MR. FONTENOT:

22 Willie Fontenot. I'm not sure if you have

23 my address. It's 632 Grehr, G-R-E-H-R, Avenue,

24 Baton Rouge, 70806.

25 One of the real challenges that people are

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1 commenting on today and one of the issues we have

2 is lack of information about what's around you.

3 We have residents from the Scotlandville area in

4 Baton Rouge talking about one of the two major

5 sewerage treatment facilities for Baton Rouge.

6 But what they haven't mentioned and may not be

7 totally aware of is within two miles of their

8 community are probably two dozen, that would be

9 24, major petrochemical facilities, three

10 Superfund sites, a closed landfill, an operating

11 landfill, the major landfill for East Baton Rouge

12 Parish, major pipelines that run next to their

13 neighborhood, and the major transportation of

14 extremely hazardous materials by rail, by truck,

15 and by barges. Mr. Hammatt mentioned barges.

16 And while the problems these folks are dealing

17 with with the sewerage treatment facility is

18 significant, they could be overwhelmed by an

19 accident within ten miles of their home with the

20 nuclear power plant and many other hazards that

21 they probably have not thought about too much.

22 It's very difficult for people to get

23 information about what is around them that may be

24 adversely impacting them or may adversely impact

25 them in the future. Industry that spoke here

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1 today correctly pointed out that it is a real

2 serious problem keeping up with all of the

3 paperwork that they have to deal with and report

4 to the Department of Environmental Quality and

5 the Environmental Protection Agency. But it's an

6 even greater challenge to the public, like the

7 residents from the Scotlandville area, to be able

8 to find out what they are exposed to and how to

9 turn to information that might be available to

10 them from the federal and state agencies.

11 I think there needs to be a greater effort

12 to help the public get to understand what some of

13 the challenges are, not just the industry, the

14 paperwork requirements or the monitoring

15 requirements, but what people are exposed to or

16 potentially to be exposed to.

17 I would think that just about everybody in

18 this room today is aware that there are some

19 major problems happening in northeast Japan, and

20 it's been going on for a few days. We could have

21 a major accident like that here, probably not

22 from an earthquake, but we could have a major

23 accident either from the railroads or the highway

24 or the pipelines or with one or more of the

25 industries in the area that would overwhelm every

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1 system Louisiana has in place today. The

2 emergency warning systems that East Baton Rouge

3 or the City of Baton Rouge have in place are

4 good, but they are totally inadequate.

5 A few years ago when Honeywell Chemical

6 Company had three major accidents, residents

7 living within a half of a mile from that facility

8 were well within the adequate hearing range of

9 the emergency response system of Baton Rouge, but

10 they were unable to understand what the warnings

11 were that were being broadcast on the emergency

12 system. People went outside to be able to hear

13 the emergency system and found out it was telling

14 them to stay inside because there was chlorine in

15 their neighborhood. They were -- It could have

16 been a really serious situation. Hopefully, it

17 wasn't. Serious in terms of the number of people

18 killed or seriously injury, but there were some

19 exposures.

20 No community in Louisiana, probably in

21 Region 6, is there an adequate system for warning

22 communities when there's a hazard from major

23 releases from an accident or some other mishap

24 from industry. I don't know if that's part of

25 the information you are looking for input on, but

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1 I think it is a real serious missing component.

2 The public doesn't understand what the

3 potential exposures are. None of the state

4 agencies have an adequate system letting the

5 public know about it. The public has very little

6 understanding of what to do if there is an

7 emergency.

8 Thank you very much.

9 MR. THERIOT:

10 Thank you, Mr. Fontenot.

11 One of these days I'm going to pronounce

12 your last name correctly.

13 MS. HRYBYK:

14 Let's do it right now. It's Hrybyk. The

15 "H" is silent.

16 MR. THERIOT:

17 Hrybyk. Okay.

18 MS. HRYBYK:

19 Okay. Fasten those seatbelts. Here we go.

20 Burdensome reporting requirements for

21 industrial polluters. I'm going to echo Willie

22 right now. Please remember that the oil and gas

23 industry is currently experiencing record profits

24 yet their monitoring is inadequate. In LA

25 permits, Louisiana permits, refineries are only

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1 required to stack test most heaters and boilers

2 once every five years on a pre-scheduled date.

3 This would be like having drivers make an

4 appointment with the traffic police to measure

5 their speed limit. Of course the driver will

6 abide by the limit during this time. Similarly,

7 the refinery has the ability to manipulate its

8 process to show compliance with emission limits.

9 This system is inefficient and prescheduled stack

10 testing should be replaced with continuous

11 emissions monitoring systems. These systems have

12 been proven to be cost effective and are not too

13 burdensome for major sources of industrial

14 pollution.

15 On the issue of benefits and costs. Flare

16 reduction programs. Flare reduction programs

17 have gone a long way in increasing the public

18 health benefits due to the reduction of harmful

19 chemicals being released through the flare. EPA,

20 in recent years, has been able to quantify the

21 benefits of emission limits on harmful chemicals

22 like SO2 by assessing the burden placed on the

23 healthcare system. Unfortunately, all flares are

24 not covered under new source review until they

25 are modified or upgraded. To fill this

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1 regulatory gap, consent decrees should identify

2 this as a major source of unreported emissions

3 and target these sources for emissions reductions

4 through flare minimization and flare gas

5 recovery. And this should cover all the flares

6 in the facility, not just one or two.

7 Furthermore, Title V should ensure that the

8 gas routed to the flares is measured for chemical

9 makeup, flow, heating value, and that the steam

10 added to the flare is accurately measured. All

11 consent decrees should include flare reduction

12 for all flares. The new New Source Performance

13 review, subpart JA, adds broader definition on

14 modification or reconstruction of flares, but it

15 has been on hold since December of 2008.

16 You can maximize net benefits through

17 community environmental monitoring, which we

18 talked about earlier, and to go back to an

19 emissions inventory audit and increasing Title V

20 fees.

21 The DEQ and EPA must audit the state

22 emissions inventory. Many sources of industrial

23 pollution are underreported and/or misreported.

24 Without accurate information, it is impossible to

25 target limited agency resources to achieve

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1 maximum environmental and public health benefit.

2 For example, a recent EPA review of flaring

3 emissions from one Midwest refinery revealed that

4 the facility was likely emitting 85 times more

5 VOCs from its flares than it had reported to the

6 state inventory. Because of erroneous reporting

7 like this, the cost-benefit analysis for reducing

8 emissions is misbalanced. Therefore, an

9 emissions inventory audit will help address some

10 of these problems. Both an audit of calculation

11 methods in use among Louisiana facilities and the

12 increase of Title V fees to the federal minimum

13 would raise an incredible amount of resources for

14 the monitoring systems proposed in these

15 comments. Our letter to the governor and various

16 letters to EPA Region 6 on these issues are

17 attached.

18 There are many ways that an emissions

19 inventory audit and a more accurate inventory can

20 improve regulatory efficiency and even the bottom

21 line for many facilities. The existing emissions

22 inventory is not accurate. Many times, emissions

23 are underestimated. For example, at one facility

24 we found that, prior to 2009, a U.S. refinery

25 reported flare VOC emissions assuming a VOC

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1 emission factor of 0.14 pounds per mmBTU. In

2 2009, the refinery revised its estimates based on

3 an assumed 98% combustion efficiency, resulting

4 in VOC emissions that were on average seven times

5 greater than previous estimates.

6 Using the Marathon Texas City test results

7 and the refinery's flare vent gas and steam flow

8 rates, EPA calculated combustion efficiencies and

9 estimated VOC emissions that were up to 15 times

10 higher than the refinery's revised estimates for

11 some flares. See where I'm going here?

12 With improved information, EPA and DEQ can

13 better target their regulatory and enforcement

14 efforts to address the biggest sources of

15 pollutants threatening the health of our

16 communities.

17 So, all of the graphs and data for that are

18 attached here.

19 I also just wanted to say that a Listening

20 Session from 1:00 to 3:00 in the afternoon during

21 the work week, you will never get residents

22 during that time. We tried our hardest to get

23 residents from refinery communities, and we all

24 work. Most of the community residents have other

25 daytime jobs. So, if you really want the input

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1 of the community, I would have this at night.

2 Thank you.

3 MR. THERIOT:

4 Thank you.

5 Anyone else?

6 MS. GRIFFIN-MITCHELL:

7 Shontelle Griffin-Mitchell, and I just

8 wanted to say something about these meetings.

9 It's great having them, and it's very important

10 that we do have them. But one thing that

11 Louisiana has to fight is politics here.

12 And I ask that whenever we have these

13 meetings that they are better announced and that

14 we do have someone here that's not locally --

15 other than locally in the meetings. We need

16 someone with higher authority because the

17 meetings, we all attend, we speak up in the them,

18 we voice our opinions, but, due to politics, some

19 things go unheard.

20 So, I'm asking that you guys have a better

21 meeting with the EPA on the federal level, and

22 hear more of what communities are going through

23 and what we are fussing about because these

24 things are very harmful to our health.

25 He did speak upon the dump that's in a

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1 subdivision, which is Allison Community, and

2 that's directly across from people's homes, also.

3 But, still, in Louisiana, it's been going

4 unheard. So, we are just asking that we get

5 better announcement from the federal level and

6 help us out in that because, locally, we are not

7 getting anything.

8 Once again, we would like to invite you guys

9 out to our community to come see for yourself,

10 and also come out to our community march tomorrow

11 at 4:30 to 6:00.

12 Thank you.

13 MR. THERIOT:

14 At this time, I'm going to have a couple of

15 closing remarks. I'd like to thank everybody

16 who's come out here. As the moderator, I think

17 it's important, just as the speakers have told

18 you, I think it's very important that both

19 citizens and business get together periodically.

20 I find it brings a better understanding. We may

21 not always agree on things, but it's good to keep

22 the conversation going.

23 I thank each and every one of you for coming

24 here today. I know that both business and

25 industry feel it's very important that you work

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1 with the government agencies that are here. We

2 welcome you to be working with us. Sometimes we

3 hear that people think it doesn't do any good.

4 Well, it does do some good.

5 I think that each and every one of you need

6 to realize when you sit together, we are unique

7 in the world. I don't think if you went to other

8 countries you would find a public hearing

9 anywhere in this nation. This allows input from

10 everyone to come here and tell us what they think

11 about things. And I really appreciate each and

12 every time people do show up.

13 With that, I'm going to let our two agency

14 heads here close it out for us.

15 DR. ARMENDARIZ:

16 I just want to reiterate and thank everybody

17 for coming, and I do want to apologize about the

18 short-term nature of us putting this meeting

19 together. I'm glad it happened because we are on

20 a very short timeframe, and there was a risk that

21 we weren't going to have this at all unless

22 Secretary Hatch stepped up. And she has provided

23 us with a forum and her own staff to help put

24 this on.

25 I do want to let folks know that we

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1 certainly recognize a lot of people work during

2 the day and that's why we've got an online system

3 at EPA.gov. We certainly do want to encourage

4 folks -- Ever since I started this job, even

5 before I started this job, there were lots of

6 engineers, people working on widgets and cameras,

7 all kinds of stuff in their garages and their

8 business, their companies, that they think make

9 monitoring compliance better. So, any help you

10 can provide us getting the word out, letting

11 those folks know that we want to find out from

12 them on what they think we can do to be more

13 efficient and more effective and more innovative.

14 Certainly, we want to invite them to write

15 comments.

16 With that, Peggy, thank you very much. And

17 thanks, again, for coming.

18 MS. HATCH:

19 Thank you, everyone who came and spoke. I

20 appreciate all the participation. Thank you.

21 MR. THERIOT:

22 Just a final note. Remember that the

23 written comment period does end April 4th. So,

24 that's just a little reminder.

25 (WHEREUPON, THE LISTENING SESSION WAS CONCLUDED.)

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1 REPORTER'S PAGE

2 I, April M. Lombardino, Certified Court

3 Reporter, for the State of Louisiana, the officer

4 as defined in Rule 28 of the Federal Rules of

5 Civil Procedure and/or Article 1434(b) of the

6 Louisiana Code of Civil Procedure, before whom

7 the following was taken, do hereby state that due

8 to the spontaneous discourse of this proceeding,

9 dashes (--) have been used to indicate pauses,

10 changes in thought, and/or talkovers; that same

11 is the proper method for a transcription of

12 proceeding; that the dashes do not indicate that

13 words or phrases have been omitted from the

14 transcript; that the above was reported by me and

15 transcribed by me, and is a true and correct

16 transcript to the best of my ability and

17 understanding.

18

_______________________________

19 April M. Lombardino, CCR

Certified Court Reporter

20 Louisiana License No. 98080

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