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S. HRG. 109–137

LIVING STRONGER, EARNING LONGER:

REDEFINING RETIREMENT IN THE 21ST CENTURY

WORKPLACE

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING 

UNITED STATES SENATE

ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

WASHINGTON, DC

APRIL 27, 2005

Serial No. 109–6

Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Aging

(

SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING 

GORDON SMITH, Oregon, Chairman 

RICHARD SHELBY, Alabama 

SUSAN COLLINS, Maine 

JAMES M. TALENT, Missouri 

ELIZABETH DOLE, North Carolina 

MEL MARTINEZ, Florida 

LARRY E. CRAIG, Idaho 

RICK SANTORUM, Pennsylvania 

CONRAD BURNS, Montana 

LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee 

JIM DEMINT, South Carolina 

HERB KOHL, Wisconsin 

JAMES M. JEFFORDS, Vermont 

RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, Wisconsin 

RON WYDEN, Oregon 

BLANCHE L. LINCOLN, Arkansas 

EVAN BAYH, Indiana 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

BILL NELSON, Florida 

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, New York 

CATHERINE FINLEY, Staff Director 

JULIE COHEN, Ranking Member Staff Director 

(II) 

C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Opening Statement of Senator Gordon Smith ....................................................... 1

Opening Statement of Senator Herb Kohl ............................................................. 3

PANEL I 

Frank Robinson, manager, Washington Nationals, Washington, DC ................. 4

Barbara D. Bovbjerg, director, Education, Workforce, and Income Security, 

U.S. Government Accountability Office, Washington, DC ................................ 11

PANEL II 

Kathlyn Peterson, medical and surgical transcriptionist, SSM Health Care, 

Madison, WI ......................................................................................................... 36

Laurie Barr, assistant director of Human Resources, Oregon Health & Science 

University, Portland, OR ..................................................................................... 40

Douglas Holbrook, vice president and secretary/treasurer, AARP Board of 

Directors, Washington, DC .................................................................................. 44

Valerie Paganelli, senior retirement consultant, Watson Wyatt Worldwide, 

Seattle, WA ........................................................................................................... 55

APPENDIX 

Prepared Statement of Senator Larry Craig ......................................................... 67

Information submitted by AARP ............................................................................ 68

(III) 

(1)

LIVING STRONGER, EARNING LONGER: REDEFINING RETIREMENT IN THE 21ST CENTURY WORKPLACE 

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 27, 2005 

U.S. SENATE, 

SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING, 

Washington, DC. 

The committee convened, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m., in 

room G50, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Gordon H. Smith 

(chairman of the committee) presiding. 

Present: Senators Smith, Kohl, Lincoln, and Carper. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR GORDON H. SMITH, 

CHAIRMAN 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you all for coming today to this very special hearing of the Aging Committee. The title of it is ‘‘Living 

Stronger, Earning Longer: Redefining Retirement in the 21st Century Workplace.’’ 

I would like to thank Senator Kohl for arranging today’s hearing 

on our aging workforce and how retirement may need to be redesigned to meet the needs of both older workers and their employers. I can’t think of a more important topic. 

We have three excellent panels of witnesses today and I look forward to a productive discussion with them. 

As the baby boom generation approaches retirement, significant 

changes will occur with respect to the makeup of the American 

workforce. According to the Census Bureau, the portion of the 

American population that is age 65 and older will increase from 

12.3 percent in 2002 to 18.2 percent in 2025. Furthermore, the 

number of Americans between the age of 55 and 64 will grow by 

about 11 million people from 2005 to 2025, while the number of 

Americans between the ages of 25 and 54, the age group with the 

highest labor force participation, will only increase by about five 

million during the same period. 

These trends may result in future labor shortages, which could 

hurt both the competitiveness of many American businesses and 

our economic growth as a whole. Furthermore, with the number of 

baby boomers that will be retiring shortly, we also must be concerned with the brain drain that may occur. Our workforce will be 

losing some of the most experienced workers, many of whom have 

skills that simply are not replaceable. 

The effects of these trends can be lessened if older workers decide to stay in the workforce longer, and it appears from recent 

2

data that this is occurring. For example, according to the Census 

Bureau, from 1995 to 2004, the percentage of 62- to 64-year-old 

men employed in March of each year rose from 42 percent to 48 

percent. There was even more growth with respect to women. 

In line with this trend of working longer, a 2004 AARP survey 

found that 79 percent of baby boomers plan to work in some capacity during their retirement years. There are a number of reasons 

why older workers decide to stay in the workforce longer. According 

to a 2005 AARP survey of individuals over age 50 and older, the 

need for money was a major reason for working in retirement. As 

the committee discussed earlier this month during its hearing on 

savings in the context of employer-sponsored retirement plans, the 

personal savings rate in the United States has declined dramatically over the last two decades. Unfortunately, many Americans 

have not saved enough to retire without continuing to work. 

Beyond financial reasons, the AARP survey also found that the 

desire to stay mentally active and the desire to stay physically active were also major reasons for working in retirement. As Americans are generally living longer and healthier lives, many are simply just not ready to fully retire at the traditional retirement age. 

In response to these trends, many employers have already implemented some of the best practices. For example, many employers 

offer elder care benefits and provide flexible work arrangements. 

One retail employer allows employees to work at their Florida 

stores during the winter and their stores in other areas of the 

country during the summer. 

Another solution that some employers have explored is phased 

retirement. Instead of fully retiring at a particular age, an individual phases into retirement or simply leaves the workforce 

gradually. For example, an employee may transition from a fulltime to a part-time position. 

According to the 2005 AARP survey of all the working respondents, 38 percent indicated that they would be interested in participating in phased retirement. Of those workers who expressed interest in phased retirement, 78 percent expect that the availability of 

such a plan would encourage them to work past their expected retirement age. Therefore, implementing a phased retirement program may assist some employers in retaining their older workers. 

I want to thank all of our witnesses here today for coming to discuss this important issue and I look forward to their testimony. It 

is a particular honor for me as the chairman to welcome Frank 

Robinson. I told him earlier that as a boy in this town, I was an 

avid Senators fan and used to watch he and Brooks Robinson put 

away the Senators in seemingly just a few innings because he 

could hit and field like few who have ever taken the baseball diamond, and it is a great privilege to meet him here today. 

Before we hear his testimony, I will turn the microphone over to 

my colleague, Senator Herb Kohl from the State of Wisconsin.

3

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HERB KOHL 

Senator KOHL. I thank you very much, Senator Smith, and we 

welcome everyone to this hearing on the subject of the increasing 

number of older Americans who are working longer. 

We also want to thank all of our witnesses here today. Mr. Robinson, we especially want to thank you for coming today because 

we know you have a game this afternoon, and I would imagine that 

the Phillies manager, Charlie Manuel, who you are playing this 

afternoon, probably wishes you would just go ahead and retire. 

[Laughter.] 

During the next few decades, the number of Americans over age 

65 will increase from 12 percent of our population to almost 20 percent. This demographic wave will require all of us to adjust our 

perceptions of what retirement means in the 21st century. 

Fortunately, today’s generation of seniors are living longer, are 

healthier, and are staying active and productive in their communities. They share an astonishing history, building our economy 

into the strongest in the world, fighting for the freedoms we enjoy 

today, raising their families, and fostering their communities. Seniors are indeed a treasure trove of knowledge, experience, and wisdom. They are an invaluable resource that we would be foolish not 

to make the most of. 

Today, older Americans not only have the ability to work longer, 

but many also have the desire. Health has been on a steady incline. 

Jobs are less physically demanding. According to a recent survey 

by AARP, 80 percent of baby boomers today expect to work into 

their retirement years. Today, only 13 percent of people over 65 are 

in the workforce, so this is a remarkable demographic shift. 

Older Americans are choosing to work for many reasons. For example, 74-year-old Eugene Schuliss from Milwaukee is working 

part-time because he says it keeps his mind sharp and gives him 

a good balance of work and free time. Arlene Roos, an 85-year-old 

factory worker from Oconomowoc, WI shows up early and works 

overtime because it keeps her active every day. Ella Clark Nuite 

of Georgia, who is 100 years old and was recently honored by Experience Works as America’s Outstanding Older Worker, still runs 

her small business and believes that work keeps her healthier. 

Whatever the reason people decide to stay in a job, it is time to 

change the way we think about retirement. A one-size-fits-all approach will no longer match the very different plans that seniors 

and baby boomers have for their later years. 

Rethinking retirement is also vital to our nation’s economic future. With more Americans retiring and fewer young workers to replace them, companies face a labor shortage. We could face a gap 

of about 18 million workers by 2020. In the future, our economy 

will increasingly depend on keeping experienced employees in the 

workforce. Some businesses have already begun to recognize the 

talent of our nation’s seniors. We need to encourage their efforts 

and take a close look at laws that make it difficult for them to attract and keep older workers. 

For example, we could reexamine pension laws to find ways to 

encourage what is called phased retirement, a gradual transition 

from full-time work to full retirement. We could also make job assistance and training programs more widely available to older 

4

workers. A recent study found that companies offering elder care 

programs helped keep people in the workforce. 

We look forward to learning more about these options today and 

working with our colleagues in the coming months to consider ideas 

that would help. 

Today, we have two examples of seniors who continue to contribute in their mature years. Frank Robinson brings 50-plus years 

of work experience to his profession and he continues to have a 

positive impact on the players he works with. Kathlyn Peterson 

still uses her lifelong experience in the medical profession to benefit hundreds of patients. They are just two examples of how the 

meaning of growing older is changing in our country. 

Older workers have a lot to offer to businesses, their communities, and their country. Today, older Americans are healthier, 

more active, and many are willing and able to continue to make 

contributions to the workplace and to their community, so we must 

incorporate this new mindset into our national culture and develop 

policies that reflect this reality. Our seniors deserve it and our economic future may well depend upon it. 

So we will go now to our first panelist, Frank Robinson, and we 

are all pleased to welcome you here, Mr. Robinson. 

For most of us, Frank Robinson needs no introduction. Frank 

Robinson was one of our country’s most beloved and renowned 

major league baseball players. After earning the honor of Rookie of 

the Year in 1956, he went on to an incredible 20-year playing career. He was first to be named Most Valuable Player in both 

leagues, and in 1982, he was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame. 

In 1975, he became the major leagues’ first African American manager, and today, he is still a force to be reckoned with. He is today 

the manager of Washington’s new hometown baseball team, the 

Nationals. 

So, Mr. Robinson, we thank you for taking the time to join us 

today and we invite you to speak as you wish. Mr. Robinson. 

STATEMENT OF FRANK ROBINSON, MANAGER, WASHINGTON 

NATIONALS, WASHINGTON, DC 

Mr. ROBINSON. Mr. Chairman, Senator Kohl, I didn’t come here, 

and I didn’t want to make any corrections, but I have to correct 

you. It was 21 years. [Laughter.] 

Accepted. 

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, it is accepted. [Laughter.] 

Mr. ROBINSON. Thank you for having me here today. It is a 

pleasure to be here and speak on this subject. I think it is a very 

important subject that should be taken into consideration and seriously by people out here in the workplace. 

I will just give you a little background on my life and then I will 

answer questions afterwards. I was born in Texas and I was raised 

in Oakland, CA. I was brought up in a single home. My mother 

was the only adult in the house. As a young man growing up, she 

gave me values that I live by today. I work hard, don’t expect anything for nothing, anything worth having is worth working for, and 

those are the values that I live by today. 

I grew up in a neighborhood that I could have gone either way. 

I could have had a 20-year sentence in San Quentin or someplace 

5

like that, or I could have a 21-year career in baseball, and I chose 

baseball. It was a very easy choice for me as a young man because 

I didn’t want to ever do anything to embarrass my mother or bring 

embarrassment to my family, so I did that. She lived by values and 

she never laid a hand on me as a kid. But the looks that I got, I 

knew what it was. 

Early on in my young adult life, my young life, I knew I wanted 

to be a baseball player. As a matter of fact, I told my counselor in 

high school that I was going to sign a major league contract for 

$75,000. I eventually signed a minor league contract for $3,500. 

But a love of baseball just was in my blood from the beginning. I 

played other sports in high school and sandlot baseball, basketball, 

football, but baseball was my love. 

I was in the minor leagues for 21⁄2 years in the South and my 

job was to work as quickly as I could to get to the major leagues. 

I made it in 21⁄2 years. I had the opportunity to make it in a yearand-a-half, but I had a very bad injury to my shoulder that set me 

back. That bothered me my entire career, but I overcame that to 

make it to Cincinnati in 1956. 

My goal at the beginning was to play five years. I didn’t think 

anything would last for much longer than that in the major 

leagues. The average at that time was, like, three to four years. 

Then when I made five years, I said, why not ten? Ten, why not 

15? Fifteen, why not 20? I made 21. 

As I was closing in on the end of my career, I decided that I 

wanted to go into management. But something was brought to my 

mind very strongly in 1965, the winter of 1965, when I was traded 

from Cincinnati to Baltimore, and the reason given by the owner 

and general manager of the Cincinnati Reds, Bill DeWitt, was I 

was an old 30, so I had to move on. My career was coming to an 

end. Well, I played, I think, 11 more years after that and had some 

production. 

But I knew that I was winding down and I wanted to stay in 

baseball, so I started going to winter ball as I was playing to manage down there to gain experience. The one thing that African 

Americans heard the most when it came to not being able to manage in the major leagues was that you didn’t have the experience, 

so I wanted to take that out of play. So I went down to Puerto Rico 

for six straight winters. My family made the adjustment because 

my wife said to me, ‘‘Frank, whatever you have to do to be successful and continue your career, the family will adjust to you,’’ so that 

made it much easier for me to put that time in down there, and 

it was well spent, because when I became a manager in 1975, it 

really helped me as far as my managing. 

The first year, I made a lot of mistakes. I thought I was ready, 

but it takes a while. You learn on the job. You make adjustments. 

I spent 21⁄2 years at Cleveland and I was out of a job, and the most 

devastating thing in baseball is to be traded or released or fired the 

first time. I didn’t leave the house for a week. But then after that, 

I said, hey, what is going on? Get your life back together. You want 

to stay in baseball, make a couple of calls. 

But my career has continued because I want to stay in baseball. 

I enjoy being in baseball. I feel like I have something to give to 

baseball, and as long as my health is good, my energy level is up, 

6

and someone feels like I can contribute to the game of baseball, I 

will be in baseball. 

When the day comes and I am not in baseball, I don’t feel like 

I have the health or the energy to play, I will move on to something 

else. People say, how do you feel at 40? How did you feel at 40? 

How did you feel at 50? How do you feel when you turn 60? I said, 

I don’t know. I feel the same as I have always felt. I feel good. I 

want to do things. 

My mind is nowhere near retiring. I don’t think retiring is good 

for individuals. It is not for me. I am a doer. I am a goer. I enjoy 

being involved in things, and I think if a country has a mindset—

we have been taught, I think, learned to work toward retiring at 

a certain age. You work to that age, then you retire and collect 

your benefits. 

Well, times have changed. Individuals have changed. I don’t 

think you can throw a blanket over the entire society and say you 

should retire at 50, or 60, or 70, or whatever because there are individuals out there that have a lot of things and a lot of knowledge 

to give even beyond retirement age. 

As long as—I have changed as a manager, for instance. People 

have said I have become soft. Well, I haven’t become soft. What I 

have been able to do over the years is make adjustments in this 

game to continue to be successful and to keep up with the youngsters, the crowd. I draw my energy from my players, and the players that I have here and have had in Montreal for three years and 

here now are the reason why I am really still managing in baseball 

today, because 11 years before I got back into the game, when I retired at Baltimore, I was through with managing. I felt like I had 

my due. I had my say. I had my chances. It was time for others 

to have their opportunity. 

But when Commissioner Selig asked me if I would manage the 

Montreal Expos for one year, because remember, the contraction 

thing was in vogue then, I said, for one year, I could do it. My energy level is up. I feel good. I am healthy. I am the man for the 

job. One year is turning into four and I still feel like I am the man 

for the job. The energy level is up. The health is good. 

Managing is a lot of stress. It is a lot of stress. But I feel like 

if you are allowed to just leave that stress at the ballpark and you 

go home to your family, you can relax and go to bed and get a certain amount of hours of sleep, you can overcome that stress and the 

strain. You have to let it out. You can’t let it buildup. I learned 

that when I was a player, when I went oh-for-four or we lost a 

ballgame, I struck out in the ninth inning with the bases loaded, 

my team lost. I left that ballgame and left that stress and strain 

and that failure at the ballpark and I came back each day feeling 

like I was going to be successful. 

I was very fortunate to be successful, I think a little bit more 

than I failed, and I have a lot of people to thank for that because 

I had people that gave me good values at the beginning, a coach 

in Oakland, CA, gave me my foundation as a player and my knowledge as a manager that I draw from today and I thank them every 

day that I have been in this game of baseball. He is no longer living now, but I still thank him. Jackie Robinson, he said, he hoped 

he would see an African American in the dugouts before he passed 

7

away. That didn’t happen, but I was very proud on the day that 

I did become the first African American manager. 

I don’t know if I will retire at any time. I have told people, as 

long as someone wants me to be in baseball and my energy level 

is up, they are probably going to have to come get me and put me 

in that pine box and say, ‘‘Goodbye, Frank. It is time to go.’’ But 

until that day comes, and I enjoy this game and have something 

to give—I don’t want to be given anything. I feel like if I have 

something to give, if someone wants to draw from my knowledge 

of the years and the experience and the know-how and the bumps 

and the hills you have to climb and overcome over the course of 

time, I will be there to do that. I try to pass that on to younger 

constituents. 

I try to pass that on to young players, that age is just a number. 

What you do and how you feel and how you conduct and carry on 

your life is the most important thing, and don’t let anyone ever tell 

you you can’t do something because the will to do something is 

stronger than the physical ability to be able to do it. 

I was not a great player coming out of high school. As a matter 

of fact, my mother wanted me to go to college and the money was 

there. She had saved it. She had worked hard to save the money 

for me to go to college. When I graduated from high school, I said, 

‘‘Mom, it would be a waste of your money for me to go to college 

because I don’t think I would be a good student. I want to play 

baseball.’’ She said, ‘‘Frank, if that is what you want to do, go do 

it.’’ She was always very supportive of me and I will never, never 

forget what she did for me as a young man to set me up to where 

I am today, and I believe that is why I am where I am today. 

Doing things in this game today and outside of this game is very 

important to me, and I think with this committee, I think this is 

one of the nicest things or nicest committees, because you know, I 

have sat at home and watched the other committees and it wasn’t 

as much fun watching those committees, real people here. I am sitting here and even being grilled. [Laughter.] 

But I think that this committee could just convey and get across 

to the workplace out there, the people that hire and fire, that a 

number doesn’t mean someone cannot be productive. In this age, 

we are living longer and in better health because of all the advanced medicine today, operations today. For instance, I had a 

knee operation in 1967 and I was out for about six months. They 

have that operation now and you are playing in three days, so that 

is how much the medicine kind of has advanced. Also, when I had 

my bad shoulder, operations were taboo because we felt if you had 

an operation, in those days, your career was over. But nowadays, 

they go in and fix it and you are even stronger. 

What I am trying to say, I think it is very, very important for 

this committee to get behind a workforce in the world today and 

get the people that are hiring to understand that senior citizens 

still can be of value in the workplace and they can still contribute 

to our society. Don’t look at them being 65, 70 years old or younger. 

I would say to our constituents and the public, don’t give in to 

age. Don’t look for something to be given to you. If you feel like you 

want to work beyond retirement, do it. Do it. Don’t take no for an 

answer. It is like when you come out of high school or college and 

8

you go to be interviewed for a job and they say, ‘‘How much experience do you have?’’ You say, ‘‘None.’’ They say, ‘‘Well, when you 

have some experience, come back.’’ Well, if someone never hires 

you, how are you going to gain experience? So why not take advantage of the experience that people gain over the years? 

I think that baseball fell into that rut of youth, computer age, see 

you later, you old senior citizens. You can’t work a computer, so 

you can’t keep up with these young people. You don’t know what 

is going on in baseball. You can’t maneuver the numbers around 

and that computer says so and so is 10 for 20 against this pitcher. 

You don’t know what that means. 

But I do know one thing. I don’t have to look at that computer. 

I know if a hitter can have success against certain pitchers and 

pitchers against certain hitters. I don’t have to be able to work that 

computer. But I know I have gained a lot of experience, a lot of 

knowledge that I have been able to bridge the gap from 1975, 1956 

to now, by adjusting to the players, adjusting to the lifestyle and 

understanding what you have to do today to be successful. That is 

what I have done over the years, and I hope that we can get that 

as this committee goes on out into the workplace and get people 

to understand age is only a number. 

Thank you for having me here today. 

Senator KOHL. That was a great, great statement, Mr. Robinson. 

As prominent as you are, you are a great testimonial to the qualities and excellence that people who are older and experienced can 

bring to the workforce. It is just great to have you here and touching on all these points that are so relevant and so important as we 

confront our situation in America of people getting older and wanting to be productive and how important it is that we allow them 

to do that. You are a living example of it all at its very best. 

I am not going to grill you. [Laughter.] 

Senator KOHL. What you said, you said it so well and you say 

it all and you say it so correctly. It is just a pleasure and a privilege to have you here today. 

Senator Smith. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Kohl. Coach, I was very 

gratified you expressed that you felt at home here at the Senate 

and we want you to feel at home here because you are performing 

by your presence and with your words a great service to an America that is aging. You are a living embodiment that age is a number. How old you are is how you feel. 

I was also very touched by your many references to your mother. 

As we approach Mother’s Day in the coming weeks, your words 

cause me to reflect upon my own youth in this town. When I was 

a teenager, I would set an alarm every morning and my mother, 

I am sure, would hear it go off. But if she didn’t hear me get up, 

she would call down to the basement, where my room was, ‘‘Get up, 

Gordy, or you won’t amount to a hill of beans.’’ 

When I was elected to the U.S. Senate, my mother was then still 

alive and I moved in with her before I could move my family back 

to Washington after the school year, so I spent 9 months living 

with her. One morning my alarm went off and she apparently 

didn’t hear me up and she opened the door and said, ‘‘Gordy, get 

up or you won’t amount to a hill of beans.’’ [Laughter.] 

9

So I am still working on it, and obviously you are showing an example of how we can all amount to more than a hill of beans. I 

just can’t thank you enough for your life, your service, and the 

great example. 

I suppose the only question I would have is do the players, the 

young players, most of whom I assume are in their 20’s, do you 

think it is of value to them to have an adult in the dugout? [Laughter.] 

Mr. ROBINSON. Yes, it is. 

The CHAIRMAN. Do they look at you with some authority, I suppose, that really does come with time in the batter’s box and in the 

dugout of managing? 

Mr. ROBINSON. I think a lot of them are awed by it and they 

stand off and they are afraid to approach me at times. But others 

draw from it and take advantage of it. I am very happy when they 

do that because I can talk baseball all night long. I can talk about 

baseball. I don’t force myself or my knowledge and what I know on 

anyone, but if you reach out to me, I am very happy to share it 

with you. There comes a time sometimes, though, I have to, as a 

manager, kind of force my will on certain players, but not too often. 

I am just happy to be able to pass on what I have learned, and I 

try to tell them to this extent. 

I had bumps and I had falls and I had setbacks in my life and 

my career and I am just trying to give you this knowledge and this 

understanding of the game and life itself so you can maybe not 

have some of those bumps and some of those falls and setbacks, 

and maybe you will have a little smoother career and a little longer 

career, and this is what I pass on, not because I am trying to show 

you how smart I am or anything like that. 

The CHAIRMAN. As the manager of the Nationals, do you hire 

other coaches that are your contemporaries or who have the wisdom of years and do you encourage them to stay in the employ of 

the Nationals past retirement? 

Mr. ROBINSON. Yes, I do. As a matter of fact, one of my players 

said, ‘‘You know, Frank, you have a senior citizens’ coaching staff 

here.’’ I said, ‘‘No, I don’t. I have one down under 40.’’ [Laughter.] 

But I try to do that for a reason, because of the experience and 

the knowledge that the individuals have, and I try to bring that on 

board because I think it is important over a 162-game schedule. No 

matter how many times you have to tell an individual something, 

sooner or later, it will click, believe me. It may not be this year. 

It may not be next year. But maybe five years down the road, it 

may click. 

For instance, I had a young man, 20 years old, Dennis Eckersley, 

I brought him up to the major leagues with me. I had to fight to 

get him on the staff, on the ball club my first year. It was about 

September, he had a shutout, eight-to-nothing in Milwaukee 

against the Brewers, and I went out and took him out of the 

ballgame after eight innings and he was livid. He was livid. So the 

next day, I talked to him about it because a very good friend of 

mine said, don’t make any decision, don’t have any discussions 

when someone is upset or mad, and that’s very good advice. So I 

talked to him the next day and I explained it to him. I said, you’re 

going to have a long, long career. You’re going to be around playing 

10

when I’m gone. Well, I’m still around and he’s retired, though—— 

[Laughter.] 

But, I said, you only have one of those things on your shoulder 

right there, that right arm, one of them, and I am not going to misuse you or abuse you now. I said, ‘‘You will know what I did for 

you later down the road sometime.’’

Five years later, he is with the Boston Red Sox and he came up 

to me one day and said, ‘‘Frank, thank you.’’ I said, ‘‘Thank me for 

what?’’ He said, ‘‘For what you did for me when I was a youngster 

back in Cleveland, taking care of me, watching out for my career. 

I appreciate that now.’’ So it comes about. It gets through sooner 

or later. 

The CHAIRMAN. That is a terrific story. 

I know Senator Kohl employs many people in the other part of 

his life, and so do I in a food processing plant out in Oregon, and 

many of my managers have gray hair and they still perform past 

retirement. I particularly value that. I wonder if you have seen, 

like I have, that often when people do retire at the traditional age 

and get the gold watch, they go home and they quickly pass away 

because—maybe it is some correlation, maybe not, but it does seem 

that having a reason to get out of bed and a purpose to go to work 

often extends life. Have you had that experience? 

Mr. ROBINSON. Oh, yes, I do. I have had it, and this is the reason 

why I keep going, because friends of mine are all the time after me, 

why don’t you retire? You have done almost everything there is to 

do and accomplish in the game of baseball. I said, I am not the retiring kind because I don’t feel like I will have the quality of life 

sitting around the house, going to play golf on occasions, and just 

trying to find things to do. 

For instance, it was kind of really brought home to me in a real 

strong way. A very good friend of mine that I grew up with, Avada 

Pinson, played for about 18 years in the major leagues and he 

coached after that for a number of years. He was out of baseball 

at 57 and he was working with the young people in Oakland, CA, 

and he had come from a little league ballpark from working with 

the kids on a very nice afternoon. He went home and sat in his LaZ-Boy chair, and that is where they found him three days later and 

he had passed away, at 57. 

The CHAIRMAN. Wow. 

Mr. ROBINSON. That drove it home to me, that to stay active is 

the best way, and the quality of life. I am not a big buff of working 

out and running and doing things like that because I did that for 

20-some years. Now I will look at the treadmill and I will get my 

energy from that—— [Laughter.] 

But I do at least now watch what I eat and I watch my weight. 

People say to me now, boy, you look good. You look great for your 

age. I say, what does that mean? I say, I look great and feel great 

no matter what age I am because I do watch that and I know when 

I am getting a little heavy. Then that is when I exercise a little 

bit. But other than that, I try to just eat healthy and stay active 

and hopefully I will have a long life. 

The CHAIRMAN. Coach, let me just simply say that while we are 

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ably a small committee in terms of the U.S. Senate, it is a large 

committee in terms of the audience that it enjoys from senior citizens in this country, and so we hope today through C–SPAN there 

is a very large audience looking at you and learning from your 

example. We profoundly thank you for your service to our nation 

by your presence here today. 

Mr. ROBINSON. Well, Mr. Chairman, Senator Kohl, thank you for 

having me here today. It was my pleasure. 

Senator KOHL. Thank you, Mr. Robinson. Good luck this afternoon. 

Mr. ROBINSON. Thank you. 

Senator KOHL. Our second panelist is Ms. Barbara Bovbjerg, who 

is the director of Education, Workforce, and Income Security Issues 

for the Government Accountability Office. There, she oversees 

GAO’s work on retirement income policy issues. Ms. Bovbjerg previously served as Assistant Director for Budget Issues at GAO and 

also worked for the District of Columbia’s Budget Office and at the 

Urban Institute. 

Ms. Bovbjerg, we welcome you here today and we look forward 

to your testimony. 

STATEMENT OF BARBARA D. BOVBJERG, DIRECTOR, 

EDUCATION, WORKFORCE, AND INCOME SECURITY, U.S. 

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE, WASHINGTON, DC 

Ms. BOVBJERG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Senator Kohl. I am 

really thrilled to be here. It is an honor to be asked to speak on 

this topic, and it is a tremendous honor to be sitting at the same 

table just occupied by Mr. Robinson, who now I have learned is not 

only a towering figure in sport, but also very eloquent and a difficult act for me to follow. 

I am here to discuss the importance of helping older workers 

earn longer. Demographic trends pose serious fiscal and economic 

challenges to America in the 21st century and Americans who 

choose to work rather than fully retire may form part of the answer 

to ensuring a healthy economy in the future. 

Today, I would like to discuss the broad demographic and economic trends that underlie our concerns about the future, essentially why it may be important to encourage those who want to 

work to continue to do so. I also plan to provide an overview of the 

factors affecting older Americans’ decision to work or to fully retire. 

My statement is based on prior GAO work on this topic, much of 

it carried out for this committee. 

First, the importance of earning longer. Older Americans are becoming a growing segment of the population. Today, the oldest 

members of the baby boom generation are nearing retirement age, 

and as this relatively large generation ages, they will create an increasingly gray America. At the same time, life expectancy is increasing. Whereas in 1940, men at age 65 could expect to live another 12 years, today, men age 65 are living 16 more years, on average. Similarly, women reaching 65 lived about 13 years in 1940. 

Today, they can expect to live another 19 years. While living longer 

is good news, make no mistake about it, most people are living 

longer in retirement rather than extending their working lives. 

12

A falling fertility rate is also a factor in our aging population. 

The fertility rate describes the ratio of the number of children born 

to the number of women of childbearing years. In the 1960’s, the 

fertility rate was about three children per woman. Today, that rate 

has fallen to a little more than two children, and by 2030 will fall 

to 1.95. This trend is a major factor in the slowing growth of the 

U.S. labor force in the last decade and going forward. By 2025, 

labor force growth will be about a fifth what it is today. 

These trends will help increase the share of the American population age 65 and older from 12 percent in 2000 to almost 20 percent in 2030. With relatively fewer people of traditional working 

age available to produce goods and services, our nation could experience slower economic growth and ultimately slower growth in living standards. These negative outcomes could transpire at the very 

time that budgetary pressures to finance Social Security and health 

care will be at their peak. 

There are various policy approaches for the Federal Government 

to consider in addressing these challenges. Whatever policies are to 

be adopted, acting relatively soon to address unsustainable growth 

in Federal health and retirement programs is important. 

Helping older Americans earn longer can also be part of an approach that could both improve the financial resources of older individuals and families while helping mitigate the economic and fiscal impacts on our nation. 

Let me turn now to older workers’ retirement decisionmaking. 

Many factors reportedly influence workers in deciding whether to 

work or to retire. For example, a number of surveys suggest that 

some workers choose to remain in the labor force past retirement 

age simply because they enjoy working and like staying active, a 

point Mr. Robinson made so effectively. An individual may also decide to continue working until his or her spouse is ready to retire, 

or retire earlier because his or her spouse is retiring. 

Other factors in the worker retirement decision include an individual’s health status, the availability of health insurance, and eligibility for early retirement benefits. Even when early retirement 

benefits are actuarially neutral, as in the Social Security program, 

the mere presence of such benefits can create an incentive to retire. 

Finally, the availability of suitable employment is a crucial element in deciding whether to continue working. Although surveys 

indicate that many older workers would like to partially retire, we 

have found that offering such flexible options is not a widespread 

employer practice. 

We currently have ongoing work that seeks to identify in more 

detail the elements of older worker retirement decisions with an 

eye to policy implications for the Federal Government. 

In conclusion, policies that encourage rather than discourage 

older people to continue working would benefit both the economy 

and individuals. Such policies might redefine retirement by encouraging more widespread availability of flexible employment and partial retirement arrangements and by removing incentives that induce workers to fully retire when they are, in fact, willing to work. 

This concludes my statement, Mr. Chairman, Senator Kohl, Senator Lincoln. Alicia Cackley is with me today. She is our assistant 

director for Retirement Income Policy Issues, and we welcome any 

13

questions that you and the committee might have. I would also like 

to ask that our written statement be submitted for the record. 

Senator KOHL. Without objection. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Bovbjerg follows:]

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Senator KOHL. Ms. Bovbjerg, is there any conceivable downside 

to what we are discussing this morning, which is the advisability 

of encouraging and promoting policies so that seniors will remain 

in the workforce? 

Ms. BOVBJERG. It is hard to see a downside to encouraging people to do something that they want to do. It is hard to see a downside to encouraging people to work when it will improve their retirement income prospects, when it will improve our economic prospects as a nation, and could improve our fiscal prospects, as well. 

I think that it is important in looking at particular solutions to 

look at the balance of the approach to assure that things are done 

to encourage people to work longer are not in some way having 

negative impact on people who cannot work longer. 

Senator KOHL. As you know, only about 13 percent of people over 

65 today are actively participating in the workforce, so how do we 

get from here to there as soon as we will need to be getting there, 

which is in the next decade or two? Right now, as you know, the 

mindset in this country is that pretty much when you are 65, with 

exceptions, you are expected and you look forward, to retirement. 

What we are suggesting here today is that that is not really where 

we need to be heading in this country. So what kinds of ideas and 

thoughts and policies do we need to be pursuing out there to 

change this mindset, both on the part of employers and employees? 

Ms. BOVBJERG. I would suggest that we should move on a number of fronts. I do want to bring to your attention a recommendation that we made several years ago as part of some work we had 

done on this issue. In that work, we noticed that there are a number of Federal agencies that have roles in encouraging employment 

and working with employers, as well as addressing retirement rule 

issues, and we had recommended that the Department of Labor 

create a multi-agency a task force to consider the barriers to olders 

workers and the potential approaches in Federal policy, specifying 

what things can be done via regulation and what things would require statutory change, and to make recommendations. 

They have not acted on this recommendation as of yet. I am still 

hopeful. Some Federal agencies are responding on their own. The 

Internal Revenue Service is considering regulation that would 

make it easier for people to partially retire by taking retirement 

benefits in part, not in full, so they could work part-time and continue to get part of their retirement. These are not yet final. 

But I would suggest that because there are interactive effects, 

this is a policy area where we need to take a broader view than 

just within a single agency or only looking at ERISA rules, for example. 

Senator KOHL. I think it is true and very important that we need 

to consider the financial aspects of this whole issue of retirement 

at age 65. Until we do, I would guess that we are going to have 

a hard time increasing the percentage of people who stay in the 

workforce. It has to make sense financially for them to stay in the 

workforce, which is what you are suggesting, and it is very true. 

Ms. BOVBJERG. That is true, and I know that there is the hope 

that as we move through this demographic change, older workers 

will appear more attractive to employers as they begin to experience labor shortages. But there is, of course, no guarantee of that 

32

and there may be a policy role for the Federal Government in encouraging more interest on the part of employers, more flexibility 

in the way that we ask employers to manage their retirement programs, and more incentives for workers. 

Senator KOHL. Thank you. Mr. Smith? 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator. 

Barbara, obviously, I think the statistics you have from GAO 

would say we will have a labor shortage in the future if everyone 

retires, and yet I am wondering if you are also seeing employers 

beginning to make changes to adjust to seniors transitioning from 

full employment perhaps to part-time or flex-time or are there 

things that you would recommend us to do legislatively. 

Ms. BOVBJERG. There are employers out there who are being very 

creative. I think that you may have one of those employers speaking to you today in the next panel. When we looked at employers 

in our earlier work on this issue however we found that such creativity is rare, or certainly not widespread. Employers are reluctant to be more flexible about bringing people back after they retire 

because of the concern about some of the pension rules that might 

affect tax qualification of their pension plans. 

We found more examples of this creativity among the public sector employers, where State and local governments, particularly 

school districts, were taking actions to try to bring workers back 

who had retired. For example, some government employers offered 

Defined Retirement Option Plans, or DROP plans where people can 

retire and then come back and work, and their retirement benefit 

is placed in an individual investment account for them while they 

are working. It is a complicated arrangement and is something that 

would be difficult to do within the confines of ERISA, and as you 

know, the State and local governments are not subject to ERISA. 

I am trying to say that there are models out there and I think 

it is important for us to consider how they might fit into a broader 

policy for the Federal Government. 

The CHAIRMAN. It is interesting. I think you have just identified 

for me, anyway, something that we may be able to do legislatively 

to give plans more flexibility so they don’t lose their tax status, so 

that they can under defined benefit or defined contribution plans 

continue to allow people to work. So we will start putting something together, and any ideas that you have, we would certainly 

welcome those. 

Ms. BOVBJERG. I would be happy to work with you on that. 

Senator KOHL. Thank you, Senator Smith. 

Senator Lincoln. 

Senator Lincoln. First of all, I would like to thank my colleagues, 

the ranking member, Senator Kohl, and Chairman Smith, for holding this hearing. I think it is so important for us to look at ways 

to bring down the barriers that preclude our older citizens from 

being so actively involved in the workforce. 

We know we have such changing demographics. We know that 

we will experience a large increase in the number of older Americans who want to remain in the workforce. With all kinds of medical technology, we know that people are living longer and they are 

living more productive and a better quality of life as they age. 

33

I know from my own personal experience, my husband’s grandmother, who is 107, and his father, who was a surgeon and worked 

pretty much up until he was about 71, I told my husband the other 

day, I said, ‘‘I hope your second wife is tall, skinny, and gorgeous, 

because with those genes, I know you will outlive me.’’ But he said, 

‘‘No, I still want to retire at 55.’’ I said, no way. No way. 

But we do have an issue here, I think, that has many aspects 

that we want to look at. One, and that is the ability to maintain 

the quality of life for these individuals, because without a doubt, 

I think anyone I know that is in the workforce over 65 will say that 

both the challenge and the mental stimulation is a huge part of 

maintaining their quality of life, both physically as well as mentally, in terms of really having that productive and that great quality of life that they feel like they have. So I think that is important. 

I think the other important aspect for us to explore is what a tremendous advantage it is for those particularly younger people who 

are in the workforce. I know I grew up in a very small town within 

walking distance of both sets of my grandparents and they had a 

tremendous role to play in my life, whether it was life skills or 

life’s lessons or helping me with what I was going through at such 

a young age. 

I watched my children in a small public school here locally who 

get the benefit of several of the teachers’ aides who are over 65, 

a retired head of the physics department who comes in and supplements the science program in the third grade. I mean, it is wonderful, not only what these people have to offer, but the way that they 

present it after a lifetime of experience in that field and what they 

share with the children in terms of building their confidence, giving 

them the kind of support that they need, as well as a background 

in what they can do with what they are learning, not that it is just 

something in a book that they have to learn, but where can they 

take that? Who can they become? What can they do with their 

lives? 

So I think there are so many multiple benefits of looking into 

being able to provide the wherewithal for our aging community to 

stay in the workforce and to not only benefit themselves, but to 

bring a great benefit to those that surround them. 

So I applaud our chairman and ranking member for bringing us 

to this point and having this discussion. 

I guess I have got a couple of questions. I do represent quite a 

rural State, and I think if there is anything that you can lend to 

specific issues regarding opportunities for older workers that is 

unique to rural areas. I know transportation is one big challenge 

that we face in rural America, particularly for our elderly, in getting them places. But maybe there are other things that you all 

know that I am not as fully aware of. 

Ms. BOVBJERG. Senator Lincoln, we have not done a ruralurban—comparison in our work on this topic, but in some related 

work that might be of interest, we looked at one-stop centers operated under the Workforce Investment Act. One-stop center provide 

employment and training services to workers, including older workers, and the big change when WIA became law was that under the 

prior law, State funding for older workers was separate, done comVerDate 0ct 09 2002 13:28 Oct 04, 2005 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00037 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 H:\DOCS\23281.TXT SAGING1 PsN: JOYCE
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pletely separately from other workers, and WIA combines both the 

services and the funding for workers of all ages. 

When we were looking at this to try to see if that made a difference in the kinds of services that older workers were receiving, 

one of the things we discovered is that the measurement of performance of these one-stop centers includes looking among other 

things, the rate of usage replacement for those the one-stops serve. 

If someone comes in unemployed and they want another job, what 

is their new wage compared to their old wage? This approach offers 

little incentive for one-stop to help someone who wants to partially 

retire, and so in our report we made a recommendation to the Department of Labor that they review performance measures, as well 

as other things out there in the one-stop centers that might disadvantage older workers who sign up for these services. 

But we have also seen that older workers, in fact, disproportionately receive services at the one-stop centers, so the one-stops are 

likely very important to local activity and helping people work. I 

am not sure if there is a difference in rural versus urban however. 

Senator Lincoln. Well, there usually is, because we have less resources oftentimes in rural areas to set up those kind of systems 

of one-stop, and sometimes they are harder to access for people 

that live out on a county road. 

Ms. BOVBJERG. Yes. 

Senator Lincoln. That is why I said the transportation, I know. 

It is a given. It is an issue and a challenge we face with everything 

in rural America. But there may be other things, and I will continue to try and explore that. 

I know for a fact, visiting with so many of our elderly out in the 

rural communities, is that oftentimes the work that they have during their working years is more physical. We know that from the 

standpoint of the debates we have been having over the course of 

the last several weeks on Social Security. So they are more likely 

to get disability, because lots of times, their jobs are more strenuous, more physical, and there is a great need. 

I heard from several of our groups in Arkansas and the AARP 

has a number of senior community service employment programs, 

and I know the AARP is going to be on the next panel, I believe, 

but just to give you an opportunity to respond, because you said 

that you had made several requests to the Department of Labor. 

I understand that the rules that govern the income in the latest 

Senior Community Service Employment Program Grants are keeping people who would have been eligible before from getting those 

services. 

For instance, under prior rules, the Social Security disability 

benefits were excluded from their income. I know in Hot Springs, 

AR, where we have one of our larger groups of seniors, the SCSEP 

office in Hot Springs is prevented in helping the older Americans 

from getting the services they need to return to the workforce. 

Maybe you can comment on the new income guidelines. I don’t 

know if your request to the Department of Labor—I think those 

guidelines came out in July 2004 from the Department of Labor, 

which were some pretty sweeping rule changes, I think that adversely affected a substantial number of older workers. 

35

Ms. BOVBJERG. We have not done any work on that issue. I do 

a lot of GAO’s Social Security related work and we are very concerned about helping disabled beneficiaries who can work return to 

work and have been watching how SAA’s return to work initiative 

are going. We have not done any work on the grants as of yet. 

Senator Lincoln. Well, if you have any input on that, we would 

certainly welcome your ideas on what is transpiring and how we 

solve that problem or how we mitigate some of the concerns that 

we are having in those offices out in our States of wanting to get 

some of these older workers back into the workforce, but seeing 

that, again, it becomes a disadvantage because, again, being able 

to provide the services and the assistance in rural areas does usually depend on the amount of resources they can find, whether it 

is through grants or what have you, and that is an important tool, 

particularly in rural America. 

Mr. Chairman, I have used my time, but I am proud to be here 

and thank you and thank our panelists for being here. 

Senator KOHL. Thank you, Senator Lincoln, and we thank you, 

Ms. Bovbjerg, for being with us today. Your testimony and your 

comments have been very useful. 

Ms. BOVBJERG. Thank you very much. 

Senator KOHL. We now turn to our third panel. Our first witness 

on this panel will be Ms. Kathlyn Peterson, a medical and surgical 

transcriptionist for SSM Health Care’s St. Mary’s Hospital and 

Medical Center in Madison, WI. Ms. Peterson has been a 

transcriptionist there for 45 years and currently participates in 

SSM’s phased retirement program. 

We would also like to welcome Mr. Douglas Holbrook, who is the 

vice president and secretary/treasurer for the AARP Board of 

Directors. He serves as Chair of AARP’s Board Audit and Finance 

Committee, as well as the Leadership Conference Planning Committee. 

Also testifying on this panel will be Ms. Valerie Paganelli, a senior retirement consultant from Watson Wyatt Worldwide. Ms. 

Paganelli has 17 years’ experience working with both public and 

private sector clients. She leads Watson Wyatt’s consulting research on the topic of phased retirement and is a national leader 

and published author of articles related to retirement, workforce 

development, and phased retirement. 

We have one additional panelist, who I will ask Senator Smith 

to introduce. 

The CHAIRMAN. Laurie Barr will be our additional panelist. Laurie serves as the assistant director of Human Resources for the Oregon Health & Science University. We welcome you, Laurie. 

Oregon Health & Science University is Oregon’s only academic 

health and science center. Laurie has been with OHSU for 41⁄2

years. She has over 12 years of experience in a variety of human 

resources positions, including senior-level experience in several 

health care organizations. She holds a Bachelor’s degree in business with an emphasis on human resources management, a Master’s degree in organizational management, has been awarded a 

Senior Professional in Human Resources certification by the Society for Human Resources Management. 

Thank you all for being here. 

36

Senator KOHL. Ms. Peterson, would you like to make your statement, please? 

STATEMENT OF KATHLYN PETERSON, MEDICAL AND 

SURGICAL TRANSCRIPTIONIST, SSM HEALTH CARE, MADISON, WI 

Ms. PETERSON. Yes. Mr. Chairman and Senator Kohl, I am 

happy to be here today to share my insight on phased retirement. 

Good morning. My name is Kathlyn Peterson and I am excited to 

be here today to share my story of phased retirement. 

When I was 50 years old, my husband and I moved to Madison, 

WI. Our children were grown, but I wasn’t thinking about retirement. I had 30 years of experience as a medical and surgical 

transcriptionist and I wanted to work. So I interviewed with a hospital and a local clinic. But then I interviewed with St. Marys Hospital Medical Center, a member of SSM Health Care. St. Marys 

really impressed me with what they had to offer. They seemed to 

be excited to have me and wanted me to start right away. 

Fifteen years later, I am 65 years old and still enjoy working for 

St. Marys. I have a permanent part-time position in medical 

records as a medical/surgical transcriptionist. I work on Monday, 

Tuesday, and every other Saturday morning. Often, the hospital is 

extremely busy, so I also volunteer to work additional days to help 

out. 

I will be 66 in June, and my children often ask me, ‘‘Mom, when 

are you going to retire?’’ I don’t really know. Maybe in a few years, 

maybe not. I am not in a hurry. I love where I work and I love 

what I do. 

I know that there are other things that I could be doing at my 

age. I could volunteer, do things at home, act more, ‘‘retire.’’ But 

working part-time keeps me active and healthy and I get to continue working in the job that I love. 

At St. Marys, I can choose to work part-time and still receive my 

pension. This is very important to me. My father-in-law died unexpectedly of a heart attack when he was 58 without enjoying any 

of his retirement benefits. My mother died at 65 and didn’t enjoy 

any of her retirement, either. Because St. Marys allows me to work 

part-time and still collect my pension, I am enjoying what I have 

worked so hard for right now. 

So is my husband. He works part-time at St. Marys as a lab courier. He will be 70 in the fall and also collects his pension while 

working. As of this week, he is officially retired, but planned to 

start working on an as-needed basis. But that will have to be postponed until next week, because he is with me here today in Washington, sitting right over there. 

In addition to the benefit of collecting my pension, I also enjoy 

full health insurance benefits at St. Marys. Employees only need 

to work 16 hours a week in order to receive full health benefits. 

Other facilities require at least 24, 32, even 40 hours per week. 

This benefit is especially valuable to me because I survived kidney 

cancer 13 years ago. My medical history would make it extremely 

expensive for me to purchase insurance independently. Because of 

my insurance coverage through the hospital, I do not need supplemental insurance. 

37

In addition to pension and health benefits, I have found the hospital to be very flexible in their scheduling. If I can’t work one of 

my regular days, I can switch to a day later in the week. Not all 

of my friends can say that. My friend, Jan, is a 66-year-old R.N. 

with a local physician group. It is hard for her to switch her days. 

Not only is her job not as flexible, she cannot draw her pension 

until she fully retires. 

But perhaps the most important benefit is the personal satisfaction of knowing that I am making a difference. Experienced 

transcriptionists are hard to find and there are always new things 

to learn—names of new drugs, new terminology. It takes a while 

to become established. So I know that my contribution of 45 years 

of experience really helps the hospital. 

But that is what older workers bring to the table. They bring experience. They are also dependable, reliable, and loyal. 

St. Marys and SSM Health Care want the best employees, regardless of their age, so they bend over backwards to work with us. 

As older employees, we are given choices about our pension, hours, 

and medical benefits. It is a great environment. We feel valued and 

appreciated. 

But it is not just the employees and the hospital who benefit 

from this relationship. Most importantly, it is the patients who 

benefit. Patients have the happiest, most experienced staff caring 

for them. That is why we are here, because our patients deserve 

the best. 

I am proud of the exceptional care that we provide and the honors we have received, including becoming the first health care system to be recognized with the Malcolm Baldridge National Quality 

Award. 

Thank you for allowing me to be here today to share my insight. 

[The prepared statement of Kathlyn Peterson follows:]

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Senator KOHL. Thank you, Ms. Peterson. 

Ms. Barr. 

STATEMENT OF LAURIE BARR, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF 

HUMAN RESOURCES, OREGON HEALTH AND SCIENCE 

UNIVERSITY, PORTLAND, OR 

Ms. BARR. Good morning, Chairman Smith, Senator Kohl, and 

Senator Lincoln. My name is Laurie Barr and I am the assistant 

director of Human Resources for Oregon Health & Science University. Thank you for the opportunity to be here before this committee to discuss OHSU’s best practices for employing older workers. 

Oregon Health & Science University is the State’s only health 

and research university and only academic health center. We have 

four distinct missions of patient care, teaching, research, and community outreach. As one of the State’s largest employers, our workforce is comprised of more than 11,000 employees. 

OHSU is proud of its commitment to a diversified workforce, including diversity in age. We recognize that the wisdom and experience older generation workers bring to our organization is invaluable. As an institution of learning, we rely on our long-term employees to provide historical insight and information to many other 

workers at OHSU and they benefit greatly from the wealth of experience our older workers possess. 

There are three best practices that I would like to highlight for 

you today. The first is flexible work arrangements. The size of our 

workforce combined with a wide variety of jobs and required skill 

sets allows for flexible work arrangements that many smaller organizations may not be able to accommodate. There are many job opportunities at OHSU that are part-time or on-call, allowing for a 

variety of work schedules that meet individual needs. 

In addition, some older OHSU workers ready to move into the retirement stage of their lives may have the opportunity to ease into 

it. We have quite a few long-term employees that have gradually 

cut back schedules over the course of several years. This slow transition benefits both the employee and the employer by keeping experienced workers on staff and allowing them to move toward retirement more gradually than in many organizations. 

As you know, our country is experiencing a shortage in many 

health care occupations, and OHSU is no exception to that. Therefore, it is critical that we retain our health care workers. Many 

health care jobs are very physically demanding, which for an older 

worker can be problematic. At OHSU, there are other options in 

those situations. An older nurse, for example, who may not be able 

to continue to keep up with the physical demands of inpatient 

nursing may have other full- or part-time opportunities at OHSU 

to continue to use his or her nursing skills. That could mean moving to a slightly less demanding outpatient nursing position or 

something in nursing education, telephone triage, case management, or quality review, for example. 

As an employer, allowing for flexible work arrangements means 

better retention of older workers. 

The second is our generous retirement plan. A substantial benefit for older workers at OHSU is the retirement plan. OHSU conVerDate 0ct 09 2002 13:28 Oct 04, 2005 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00044 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 H:\DOCS\23281.TXT SAGING1 PsN: JOYCE
41

tributes up to 12 percent of an employee’s annual income into a retirement plan upon eligibility. OHSU offers two retirement plan options, a defined benefit plan and a defined contribution plan. For 

the University Pension Plan, which is our defined contribution 

plan, once workers reach the age of 50, they become 100 percent 

vested in their retirement contributions regardless of their length 

of service. OHSU also offers two voluntary savings programs to 

help employees supplement their retirement plan and Social Security benefits. 

These benefits are not only powerful recruitment tools in attracting new older workers to OHSU, they serve us in our retention efforts, as well. A stable, substantial pension provides these employees with an additional sense of financial security as they move closer to their retirement years. 

The third item is shared knowledge of older workers. Almost 30 

percent of OHSU’s current workforce is comprised of workers age 

50 or older. I am particularly pleased to report to you that currently, 11 of our employees are over the age of 80, and two of those 

are over 90 years old. Most of these individuals are working on a 

part-time basis, although three of them, believe it or not, are still 

full-time. This demonstrates a huge commitment to their work and 

to OHSU. 

Nine of these 11 individuals serve in professor or adjunct professor positions and several of them continue to do research. Well 

past traditional retirement age, these individuals continue to share 

their knowledge with future doctors, nurses, and scientists. OHSU 

is proud to have them as continuing productive members of our 

workforce. 

In conclusion, as a society, we must be more creative about accommodating older workers, especially as the baby boom generation begins to think about retirement. More employers need to step 

forward and take proactive steps to assist older workers in the 

workplace. Retirement isn’t what it used to be, and as an employer, 

OHSU recognizes this. We value the contributions, experience, and 

wisdom of our older workers. We truly hope that in the future, 

more and more employees will continue to work past their normal 

retirement date. It is good for us and it is good for them. 

Thank you for inviting us to testify today. 

[The prepared statement of Laurie Barr follows:]

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Senator KOHL. Thank you very much. Mr. Holbrook. 

STATEMENT OF DOUGLAS HOLBROOK, VICE PRESIDENT AND 

SECRETARY/TREASURER, AARP BOARD OF DIRECTORS, 

WASHINGTON, DC 

Mr. HOLBROOK. Mr. Chairman and Senator Kohl, I am Doug 

Holbrook, a member of AARP’s Board of Directors. I would like to 

thank you for convening this hearing to highlight the issues facing 

older workers. 

AARP is the largest organization representing the interests of 

Americans age 50 and older and their families. About half of 

AARP’s members are working either full-time or part-time. All of 

our working members, as well as those who want to work, have a 

vital interest in being able to remain on the job and to contribute 

to society without facing age discrimination. 

Protecting and expanding the rights and opportunities for older 

workers was a founding principle of AARP. We work to improve 

employment conditions and policies for all workers through our legislative and regulatory advocacy. Through AARP’s program initiatives, we collaborate with employers to increase job opportunities 

for those age 55 and over and we conduct research to help answer 

the need for knowledge about how work issues affect employees 

and employers and the workplace. 

AARP advocates for improvements in the Workplace Investment 

Act of 1998. Specifically, we have urged inclusion of target training 

requirements to serve currently employed older workers, ensure 

that one-stop centers have adequate staff and equipment, help employers prepare for an older workforce, and encourage education 

and training for older workers. 

Other efforts center on phased retirement. Phased retirement 

programs could ease the projected labor shortage as well as expand 

work options for older workers. Employers could benefit from programs that help retain experienced workers. 

AARP recently commented on proposed IRS regulations that 

would allow defined benefit pensions to pay partial retirement to 

eligible employees to reduce their work schedules. AARP also released a survey, ‘‘Attitudes of Individuals 50 and Older Toward 

Phased Retirement’’ in March. The survey gauged attitudes to 

phased retirement. Nineteen percent of the respondents have heard 

the term ‘‘phased retirement’’ and of those, nearly 38 percent said 

they would be interested in participating in such a program. Of interested workers, 78 percent expected that phased retirement 

would motivate them to work past their expected retirement. Fortysix percent of interested workers said they would like to start 

phased retirement between the ages of 60 and 64, and 53 percent 

of employees would like to work 12 fewer hours, on average, if offered phased retirement. 

AARP believes that barriers to implementing phased retirement 

programs should be eliminated. However, these programs must be 

designed to protect workers’ benefits and preserve their long-term 

retirement security while recognizing the legitimate needs of employers. Businesses will need to do more to attract and retain older 

workers and help ease likely future labor shortages. 

45

Five years ago, AARP established an annual award program to 

recognize employers who already had innovative practices, AARP’s 

‘‘Best Employers For Workers Over 50’’. These employers have formal and informal arrangements that allow older workers flexibility, 

such as job sharing and compressed work weeks. AARP’s ‘‘Best Employers For Workers Over 50’’ continues to increase in visibility. 

Follow-up activities include reports, ‘‘Staying Ahead of the Curve 

2004,’’ a compilation of best practices among 2002–2004 winners; a 

national conference that will center on business solutions for an 

aging society; and a report that will address the value workers 45 

and older bring to American business. 

AARP’s Workforce Initiative is a program targeted to both employer and employees. It grew out of a partnership between AARP 

and Home Depot to attract and retain mature workers. The featured employer portion of the initiative builds on the partnership 

by educating businesses on the value of their existing older workforce and recruiting mature workers. 

Last year, AARP released a survey to the 1998 ‘‘Baby Boomers 

Envision Their Retirement.’’ AARP looked at how this massive generation has progressed in planning for retirement. Similar to the 

1998 survey’s, 80 percent, 79 percent of boomers plan to work in 

some capacity during the retirement years. Thirty percent of the 

boomers plan to work for enjoyment, while 25 percent plan to work 

for the income. 

In answer to the anticipated growth of the aging population as 

well as greater demand for older workers, AARP has taken on the 

challenge of helping to create solutions to meet the needs of the 

workforce and older employees. What we have seen is that employers are interested in learning about and implementing policies that 

attract older workers. Employers who adapt their workplace will 

likely find themselves better positioned to harvest the benefits of 

a potential resource. 

Congress’ challenge is to establish policies that recognize the innovation of employers who have successfully attracted older employees to work for them. Legislation to make job training programs more inclusive and to expand phased retirement are two 

good examples. Understanding the needs of older workers will help 

Congress develop answers to create a workplace of choice for them. 

Mr. Chairman, I would ask that our written testimony be included in the record. 

Senator KOHL. Without objection. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Holbrook follows:]

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Senator KOHL. Ms. Paganelli. 

STATEMENT OF VALERIE PAGANELLI, SENIOR RETIREMENT 

CONSULTANT, WATSON WYATT WORLDWIDE, SEATTLE, WA 

Ms. PAGANELLI. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and distinguished 

committee members. I am happy to be here and pleased that we 

were invited to participate in the testimony today. 

My name is Valerie Paganelli and I am a senior retirement consultant with Watson Wyatt Worldwide, a global human capital consulting firm that is grounded in the most extensive research in our 

business, including phased retirement. We believe phased retirement programs can encourage older workers to remain in the workforce longer. 

Employers face varying levels of urgency around the need to extend the working years of their older workers. They have a desire 

to engage and retain older workers who contribute to ongoing business success. Many employers are considering alternate approaches 

to traditional retirement. However, implementation of formal 

phased retirement programs pose considerable challenges and 

risks. As a result, phased retirement is currently primarily shaped 

by individuals who retire from one organization and return to work 

for another organization, or who rejoin their pension-paying employer on a consulting or contract basis. 

Nearly one-fourth of current phased retirees expect to work past 

age 65. Another 20 percent expect to work indefinitely. One-third 

of surveyed workers over age 50 are willing to work longer, and 

voluntary phased retirees are nearly four times more likely to continue working with their current employer if offered informal 

phased retirement programs and other work life benefits. Informal 

programs include flexible work arrangements, reduced work hours, 

less job responsibility, and the opportunity to try something new. 

In particular, women may extend their careers by 21 months 

when phased retirement arrangements are available, and men may 

extend their careers by 8 months when elder care services are 

available. Yet only 40 percent of employers currently offer flexible 

work arrangements. Only 27 percent offer elder care services. Only 

16 percent offer phased retirement. 

Continued wages from active employment will become more and 

more important for individual financial security. A modest 28 percent of voluntary phasers are in need of the added income; but for 

unplanned phasers, this percentage increases to 50 percent. Thirtyeight percent who voluntarily left their career employer are receiving a monthly pension. 

The Social Security debate, escalating medical care costs, the reduction of workers covered by defined benefit pension plans, and 

the potentially less than adequate savings patterns in the U.S. 

make for unstable financial resource for many individuals. 

That said, enjoyment is currently the most common reason 

voluntary phasers continue to work today, indicated by 42 percent 

of those surveyed. Phasers who work primarily for enjoyment are 

more likely to experience higher job satisfaction, enjoy good health, 

and receive higher pay raises than their peers. 

The availability of more formal phased retirement programs involving pension and health care benefits is limited. One significant 

56

barrier that has been mentioned today is the restriction to pay pension benefits to actively working employees prior to their normal 

retirement age. The IRS recently proposed new guidance that 

would change this rule. However, as currently drafted, very few 

employers are likely to adopt them because they lack flexibility and 

involve significant administrative burdens. 

Today, the availability of retiree health benefits may have the 

most influence on individual retirement decisions. One study demonstrated that a near 70 percent increase in the propensity for 

early retirement when retiree health benefits were provided. Rising 

medical benefit expenses have prompted most employers to scale 

back or alter the delivery of these benefits, leaving many individuals burdened with financing their own health care costs and necessitating continued employment. 

Despite these and other barriers, many employers are actively 

exploring phased retirement arrangements. They are doing so by 

rehiring their own bona fide retirees as part-time employees or 

independent contractors. They are targeting their recruiting efforts 

at the retiree ranks in the labor market. They are reviewing their 

existing benefit programs to make them more phased retirement 

friendly. They are using direct compensation and incentives, health 

care subsidies, and work life benefits. They are diligently quantifying the costs of retaining retirement-eligible workers as compared 

to recruiting a dwindling supply of replacement workers. Deep-rooted in the organization, they are adapting their organizational culture, succession planning, and training to support a more broadbased phased retirement program in the future. 

We would like to persuade policymakers such as you to encourage the ongoing collaboration of appropriate governmental entities. 

We would like you to endorse defined benefit plans and provide for 

phased retirement distributions. We would like you to help establish a framework for Americans to understand and practice successful financial planning and to continue conversations with employers, employees, and their representatives. 

In closing, Watson Wyatt believes the United States faces unprecedented retirement policy questions and that it is imperative 

for our nation to allow for the flexible unfolding of alternative profiles of retirement. Watson Wyatt also welcomes the continued opportunity to contribute to your discussions. 

We thank you for holding this hearing today. I am pleased to 

have gotten my mitt signed by Mr. Robinson for future use, and am 

happy to address any questions you may have. 

Senator KOHL. Thank you for your statement. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Paganelli follows:]

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Senator KOHL. Ms. Peterson, why do you choose to stay in the 

workforce rather than become a full-time retiree? In other words, 

what do you get out of your arrangement that you would not get 

otherwise? 

Ms. PETERSON. I get personal satisfaction. I enjoy my work. I 

have been doing this for 45 years. I have never changed my career 

because I love my career. It is nice I can work part-time, collect my 

pension, and I get full health benefits, which I feel is very important for me. 

Senator KOHL. Good. You are a medical/surgical transcriptionist? 

Ms. PETERSON. Right. 

Senator KOHL. Will you explain that? 

Ms. PETERSON. Well, the doctors dictate and I type what they 

say, and to try to figure out sometimes what they say is sometimes 

hard. They are mumblers or they are foreigners, but we try to do 

our best. 

Senator KOHL. Good. Mr. Holbrook, it is our understanding that 

there are companies that are reluctant to keep older workers because they feel that the health care costs may rise. Is that an issue 

that needs to be dealt with? 

Mr. HOLBROOK. That is a problem. I would just like to point out, 

before I answer your question, Senator Kohl, that I was listening 

to the testimony and it became very personal for me. Starting Monday, at 71, I will begin a full-time job and am looking forward to 

it. 

We have not compared the health care costs of older workers 

with those of workers younger than age 65, and I am not familiar 

with other work which has been done. However, it would seem to 

me that it could cost more for older workers. But on the other 

hand, it would depend on the individual case. It would certainly be 

lower in regard to workers with a number of beneficiaries that 

would be covered by a policy. 

So, therefore, we have not done really a cost analysis of this, but 

it would seem to me that the cost would be something that would 

have to be considered. I don’t think it should be something that 

would prevent the hiring of older workers, but I think it would be 

something that we should look at for the future in order to deal 

with that problem. 

Senator KOHL. Thank you. Ms. Paganelli, it is clear that phased 

retirement could help older Americans work longer, but it also 

seems to me we need to be doing it carefully and making sure that 

phased retirement achieves its goal of increasing work. What pitfalls, or unintended consequences, should we watch out for as we 

address that situation? 

Ms. PAGANELLI. The employers that we are in dialog with do 

have, as I mentioned, varying levels of urgency. For those organizations with the most acute urgency, they are looking for flexibility 

and the ability to target their phased retirement arrangements on 

the critical skill employees that drive the success of their organization. They would very much prefer not to cast a broad net that includes all of their retirement-eligible population if there is not a desirable business need. 

I would also say that phased retirement is a very, very individual 

conversation within every organization as to the needs they have 

64

due to the underlying demographics of their organization, and so 

they are not looking for mandates on a policy basis, they are looking for flexibility, and are trying to avoid undue administrative 

burdens that limit their ability to offer phased retirement programs. 

Senator KOHL. What do you find to be the problems in the 

caregiving efforts of people who still want to work? Do we need to 

do more, or encourage companies to help employees find caregiving 

for their elderly? 

Ms. PAGANELLI. I think there is an enormous amount of opportunity in this area and that the opportunity will continue to grow 

as our workforce and population ages. There are statistics that 

show that individuals do retire earlier than they might otherwise 

when elder care is required of them as individuals, and so services 

that can help support them whether they be the opportunity for social workers to advise them or services that help them locate the 

care that fits their needs, can only help to balance the opportunity 

to stay in the workforce while responding to what I think we all 

believe is a higher priority in caring for our loved ones. 

Senator KOHL. Thank you. Senator Smith. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thanks, Senator Kohl. 

Ms. Paganelli, with respect to those companies that are currently 

providing phased retirement programs, at what ages are employees 

starting to ask their employer about phasing down their hours? 

Ms. PAGANELLI. I would say again it varies depending on the organization depending on how hard those individuals have been 

asked to work, depending upon what underlying benefits are available and the underlying messages and opportunities. 

Some organizations have a working cohort as early as age 55 

who have opportunity to receive their pension benefits on a subsidized basis, have a well-balanced personal savings and 401(k) and 

have access to medical coverage. So for them, they are not looking 

at the income dimension, and so employers are having to tap into 

the enjoyment factor to keep those individuals on their rolls. 

I would say other organizations, who maybe only sponsor a defined contribution plan, don’t have a built-in incentive for their employees to retire, and therefore the decision to retire becomes very 

individual on an employee-by-employee basis. These organizations 

are trying to get more in touch with the thinking around retirement and the savings patterns and the underlying adequacy that 

individuals have. 

So I would say as early as 55 in many organizations and into the 

60’s for others. 

The CHAIRMAN. From your research, what type of phase-down is 

most common? Is it part-time, 50 percent work? What are you finding? 

Ms. PAGANELLI. It is the reduced schedule, and the availability 

for flexibility. 

The CHAIRMAN. Doug Holbrook, many American companies have 

best practices with respect to recruiting and retaining older workers. In fact, I believe AARP recognizes some of these organizations 

each year with your Best Employers For Workers Over 50 awards. 

Could you describe for us some of the practices that have been 

most effective in terms of retaining and recruiting older workers? 

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Mr. HOLBROOK. I think the flexible work hours available to the 

workers certainly adds to it. I think the benefits that they receive 

are important. I think their desire to work and the fact that the 

company is receptive to having an older workers employed within 

their facility is also very helpful. 

We are very proud of the program that we have in that category. 

We have tremendous activity from companies who ask to be considered for the award, and we are very proud of that. It is gaining in 

momentum, by the way, because more and more companies are 

saying, we want to be recognized for what we are doing, and they 

are doing a fantastic job. 

For example, in our partnership with Home Depot, we have 

already brought into the workforce of about 3,200 people. That is 

a large number of employees in a short period of time. 

But it covers a whole range of issues. I think the company has 

to be receptive to hiring, and also they have to understand that 

they have a need. They are getting a real bargain when they have 

an older worker, who certainly brings to the table a lot of information, a lot of talent, and a lot of ability to do great work for the 

company. 

The CHAIRMAN. This Oregon Senator is very proud that Oregon 

Health & Science University received one of those awards. 

Mr. HOLBROOK. Yes. 

The CHAIRMAN. Laurie, would you encourage other organizations 

to adopt the practices that you have helped to lead? 

Ms. BARR. I absolutely would. I mean, it really—it truly does 

benefit employers as well as the individual employees, and it is a 

win-win. 

The CHAIRMAN. Well, obviously there is a nursing shortage in 

this country and probably necessity created the interest, but no 

doubt just the skill of older workers in health care surely must 

have also incentivized OHSU to reach out. Has interest grown 

among your employees in these kind of incentives to stay? 

Ms. BARR. I think so. To be honest with you, it is something that 

we promote as an employer and not specific to older workers, but 

just to the fact that we have a large variety in terms of our workforce demographics and flexibility and generous benefits benefit not 

only older workers, but all kinds of workers, those that are new 

moms, those that are single parents, those that are new to the 

workforce. So we really try to encourage that within our organization, to recognize that everyone is at different points in their life 

and flexibility benefits everyone. 

The CHAIRMAN. Have you offered any specific options for older 

employees in the past to take advantage of it? 

Ms. BARR. Not specific to older employees, yes. 

The CHAIRMAN. Well, thank you. Kathlyn, I have no questions for 

you but a big thanks. We appreciate your being here. 

Ms. PETERSON. Thank you. 

Senator KOHL. We thank you very much for being here. It seems 

to me we have learned an awful lot about the new demographics 

that we are facing, and the advisability and also the great potential 

benefits of encouraging and promoting policies that will increase 

the number of people working past traditional retirement ages not 

only full-time but also part-time. This is an issue and a problem 

66

that we need to face as a society, because there will be the need 

for large increases in the workforce for which we are not presently 

prepared. 

I think we have also come to understand that we need to change 

some of our policies with respect to health care and pension programs so that it is conducive for people to stay in the workforce, 

and as Senator Smith pointed out, this is something that we can 

work on legislatively here and that is what we intend to do. So in 

that respect, this hearing has been most beneficial and your participation has advanced the cause, and we much appreciate your 

being here. 

Senator Smith. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Kohl. We are adjourned. 

Senator KOHL. Thank you very much. 

[Whereupon, at 11:44 a.m., the committee was adjourned.] 

(67)

A P P E N D I X 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR LARRY CRAIG

Mr. Chairman, I’d like to thank the Ranking Member and you for holding this 

hearing. 

A saying coined in recent years goes, ‘‘Demographics are destiny.’’ In some respects, our destiny will be handed to us by demographics. To a significant degree, 

we already know what that landscape will look like. In other, very important ways, 

our destiny will depend on how wisely we plan for and greet the future, as individuals and as a society. 

The destiny of demographics and the destiny of our determination will intersect 

at many, different points. One of the most important areas of intersection is the 

subject of today’s hearing: The participation of an older population in the paid work 

force. 

This is a subject that will touch, directly or indirectly, on the quality of life and 

prosperity of all Americans. It also will help shape the future of Social Security, 

Medicare, Medicaid, and other society-wide institutions. 

We know with certainty what our nation’s available, native-born, work force will 

look like for the next generation. All those workers have already been born. Thanks 

to the science of demographics, we also predict with relative confidence what the 

native-born population available for work will look like over the next lifetime. That’s 

why the Government Accountability Office, Congressional Budget Office, Social Security Actuaries, and others, make 75-year projections. 

What we don’t know, and need to consider, includes how, for how long, and in 

what jobs, that work force will be working. 

The good news is, Americans are living longer and healthier lives. Many older 

Americans want to continue working. Most members of the ‘‘baby boom’’ generation 

expect to work productively well into their ‘‘golden years.’’

We need to keep in mind how diverse and differently situated our population is. 

We need to keep in mind the needs and circumstances of those who can and cannot 

work, those who want to or have to continue working, and changes in technology 

and the economy. 

For those who want to work or need to work, we need to remove impediments. 

We need to make sure there are appropriate incentives and rewards. 

On both the individual level and the national economic level, the idea of ‘‘phased 

retirement’’ holds out great promise of being a positive means of transition. However, in the tax code, and often in the company culture, there are some major obstacles to this alternative. 

Over the next decade, experts tell us our nation faces a labor shortage of 10 to 

20 million workers. Some of that shortfall is likely to be met by in-migration. Some, 

theoretically, could be relieved by increased productivity. However, there is no substitute for the valuable contributions of an experienced, reliable work force of older 

Americans. For our economy to meet its maximum potential, more of these workers 

will have to be accommodated in the work force. 

Almost two years ago, the Aging Committee held a forum on this very subject, 

moderated by one of today’s witnesses, Ms. Barbara Bovbjerg of GAO. I’m pleased 

the Committee maintains its interest in this important area and join my Chairman 

and Ranking Member in welcoming all the witnesses.

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