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75–216 PDF 2012

S. Hrg. 112–685 

VETERANS EMPLOYMENT AND 

GOVERNMENT CONTRACTORS 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

AD HOC SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONTRACTING 

OVERSIGHT 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED TWELFTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

JUNE 5, 2012 

Available via http://www.fdsys.gov 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Homeland Security 

and Governmental Affairs 

( 
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas 

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana 

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, Missouri 

JON TESTER, Montana 

MARK BEGICH, Alaska 

SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

SCOTT P. BROWN, Massachusetts 

JOHN MCCAIN, Arizona 

RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin 

ROB PORTMAN, Ohio 

RAND PAUL, Kentucky 

JERRY MORAN, Kansas 

MICHAEL L. ALEXANDER, Staff Director 

NICHOLAS A. ROSSI, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

TRINA DRIESSNACK TYRER, Chief Clerk 

JOYCE WARD, Publications Clerk and GPO Detailee 

AD HOC SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONTRACTING OVERSIGHT 

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, Chairman 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas 

JON TESTER, Montana 

MARK BEGICH, Alaska 

ROB PORTMAN, Ohio 

SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine 

JOHN MCCAIN, Arizona 

JERRY MORAN, Kansas 

MARGARET DAUM, Staff Director 

BRIAN CALLANAN, Minority Staff Director 

KELSEY STROUD, Chief Clerk 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Opening statement: Page 

Senator McCaskill ............................................................................................ 1 

Prepared statement: 

Senator McCaskill ............................................................................................ 35 

Senator Carper ................................................................................................. 39 

WITNESSES 

TUESDAY, JUNE 5, 2012 

Theodore L. (Ted) Daywalt, President and Chief Executive Officer, VetJobs .... 5 

Spender Kympton, Chief Operating Officer, The Mission Continues .................. 7 

Ramsey Sulayman, Legislative Associate, Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of 

America ................................................................................................................. 8 

Pamela Hardy, Senior Manager, Diversity and Inclusion Team, Booz Allen 

Hamilton ............................................................................................................... 11 

Sally Sullivan, Executive Vice President, ManTech International Corporation 12 

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF WITNESSES

Daywalt, Theodore L.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 41 

Hardy, Pamela: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 11 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 58 

Kympton Spender: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 7 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 52 

Sulayman, Ramsey: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 8 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 55 

Sullivan, Sally: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 12 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 63 

APPENDIX 

Questions and responses for the Record from: 

Mr. Sulayman ................................................................................................... 68 

Ms. Hardy ......................................................................................................... 70 

Ms. Sullivan ...................................................................................................... 72 

Senator McCaskill’s fact sheet ................................................................................ 74 

Statements submitted for the Record: 

Booz Allen Hamilton ........................................................................................ 80 

Patricia A. Shiu, Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs, Department of Labor ......................................................................................... 82 

(1) 

VETERANS EMPLOYMENT AND 

GOVERNMENT CONTRACTORS 

TUESDAY, JUNE 5, 2012 

U.S. SENATE, AD HOC SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONTRACTING OVERSIGHT, OF THE COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, Washington, DC. 

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m., in 

Room 342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Claire McCaskill, 

Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding. 

Present: Senators McCaskill, Carper, and Begich. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MCCASKILL 

Senator MCCASKILL. This hearing of the Subcommittee on Contracting Oversight of the Senate Committee on Homeland Security 

and Governmental Affairs will come to order. 

I am happy today to be discussing a subject that I think every 

American should be concerned about, and that is the employment 

of our veterans. At the hearing today, we are going to talk about 

an alarming trend in the employment of the best that America has. 

Service in the active duty military or the National Guard or Reserve has historically been an advantage in seeking employment. 

Recruiters for the military promise that service could lead to careers. Yet after more than a decade of war, we are seeing something very different, that the men and women who have served so 

honorably in Iraq and Afghanistan are facing unprecedented challenges in finding employment. 

Last week, the Department of Labor (DOL) released its latest unemployment figures, which show that the unemployment rate in 

the United States is currently 8.2 percent. Those same figures 

show that veterans who have served on active duty since September 2001 have an unemployment rate of 12.7 percent. The unemployment rate for veterans who have served since September 

2001 has also been increasing. In May 2011, the unemployment 

rate for these veterans was 12.1. In May 2010, it was 10.6. These 

numbers are a stark reminder that we are not doing enough to 

help our veterans and that we must take new and urgent steps to 

improve our national efforts to make sure veterans have the tools 

and the opportunities they need to find careers after they leave the 

military. 

Part of the problem is that there are significant barriers that veterans face in seeking employment. Veterans are finding that all of 

their training and experience cannot simply be translated into 
2 

1The fact sheet referenced by Senator McCaskill appears in the appendix on page 74. 

similar civilian jobs. They may be finding employers who feel unsure about hiring veterans and members of the National Guard 

and Reserve (NG&R) because they do not understand what service 

requires. Breaking down these barriers is critical and requires innovative and comprehensive responses. 

Part of the problem is the government is not doing what it 

should. Simply telling the veteran to go down to his or her local 

employment office or to search the job boards, as we have heard 

happens, is just not enough. Many different Federal agencies, including the Defense Department (DOD), the Veterans Administration (VA), and the Department of Labor, have programs to work 

with veterans on employment issues and some are more successful 

than others. Government contractors are well situated to be major 

employers of veterans, and many are. 

Contractors are also required by law to take affirmative action 

to hire veterans. Since 2002, President Bush signed into law a provision that requires companies with government contracts over 

$100,000 are required to post job listings at nationwide employment offices, to report their veteran hiring and employment numbers to the Department of Labor through the VETS–100A form, 

and those with 50 or more employees are required to develop a 

plan to hire veterans. The question is, how well are the contractors 

doing at this? The answer is, we have no idea. 

Last year, I asked the Department of Labor for the information 

collected from the government contractors for the past 10 years. 

The Department was only able to provide data for 2009 and 2010 

because it only just became electronically available. The Subcommittee staff prepared a fact sheet1 summarizing this information, and I ask unanimous consent that this fact sheet be included 

in the hearing record. 

What this fact sheet shows is that the information currently 

being collected and maintained by the Department of Labor is spotty and frequently inaccurate. We saw numbers that are obviously 

wrong, like seeing a company whose number of veteran hires is 400 

percent larger than the total number of people working for the 

company. We also saw a significant amount of missing information. 

For example, the two companies represented here today do not 

even appear in the data. Both had, in fact, submitted the data, as 

required, and were able to produce it upon request to the Subcommittee. 

It seems that the reason for this discrepancy is with the Department of Labor. There are two offices within the Department of 

Labor that are responsible for collecting the data and overseeing 

enforcing compliance. That is, the Office of the Assistant Secretary 

for Veterans Employment and Training (VETS), the Vets Office at 

the Department of Labor, and the Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP)—I will try not to use acronyms, it is a 

hazard of this job—the Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs. Yet in conversations with the Department of Labor, the 

Subcommittee learned that the Vets Agency at Labor collects this 

information but never reviews it for any purpose, and the Office of 

Federal Contract Compliance has the authority to audit contractor 
3 

compliance, but, in fact, conducts very few and never attempts 

quality assurance reviews. 

This does not make any sense to me. It is almost like we are 

going through the motions and do not care what the result is. It 

is called ‘‘make work’’ but have no results. 

I called this hearing today to bring together two groups who are 

actually taking steps, active steps, to promote contractor employment of veterans. We are here today to learn from some of the Nation’s leading Veterans Service Organizations (VSOs) about the 

challenges facing veterans. We will also hear from two large and 

well-known businesses about the excellent work they are doing in 

recruiting and hiring veterans. I look forward to a constructive discussion today. 

I also want to make one point clear from the outset. The status 

quo is just not acceptable. The notion that these highly trained 

and, frankly, veterans who we know make great employees, the 

fact that we cannot get them employed, the fact that their unemployment level is higher than the Nation’s unemployment level is, 

in fact, a shame. It is something we should be ashamed of. 

We cannot continue to betray the trust of our Nation’s veterans 

by not doing everything in our power to make sure that they have 

access to employment. We cannot continue to invest scarce government resources and waste businesses’ time, demanding they file reports which nobody pays any attention to and currently do not 

have any benefit to veterans’ employment. We need to avoid duplication in programs, but also ensure that we are not taking a onesize-fits-all approach. 

This is a tall order, but when it comes to our veterans, we have 

an obligation to do everything we can. I hope this hearing will be 

a first step. I also sincerely hope the Department of Labor is listening, because I plan to followup with them about the issues that we 

discuss here today. 

I thank the witnesses for being here and look forward to their 

testimony. 

I know Senator Carper is on his way and wanted to make opening remarks when he gets here. I may indulge the witnesses to interrupt you for purposes of his opening remarks, but in the meantime, I will go ahead and introduce our witnesses and we will begin 

your testimony today. 

Ted Daywalt is the President and Chief Executive Office (CEO) 

of VetJobs. VetJobs was founded in 1999 and has become one of the 

leading Internet job boards for veterans and employers. Mr. 

Daywalt served in the Navy and Navy Reserve for over 28 years. 

He has worked in the private and public sector and is also Chairman of the Atlanta Regional Military Affairs Council and Director 

of the College Educators for Veterans Higher Education. Mr. 

Daywalt also sits on the Board of Governors for the International 

Association of Employment Web sites, where he chairs the OFCCP 

Committee, which is the acronym for the folks that are supposed 

to be doing compliance at the Department of Labor. 

Spencer Kympton is the Chief Operating Officer (COO) of The 

Mission Continues, which is based in St. Louis, Missouri. I am especially proud to welcome him here today. Founded in 2007, The 

Mission Continues is a nonprofit organization that works to em-
4 

power post-9/11 veterans by pairing them with fellowships at notfor-profit organizations in their communities. Mr. Kympton is a 

former Army officer and a graduate of West Point. Prior to joining 

The Mission Continues, Mr. Kympton worked at McKinsey and 

Company and held the position of Vice President of Recruiting for 

Teach For America. 

Ramsey Sulayman is a Legislative Associate for Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America (IAVA). Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans 

of America was founded in 2004 to bring together and empower the 

newest generation of wartime veterans. IAVA has helped countless 

returning veterans with programs focusing on physical and mental 

health, education, and careers. Mr. Sulayman is a former Marine 

officer who served in Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF) as an infantry 

platoon commander and company executive officer. 

Pamela Hardy is a Senior Manager in the Diversity and Inclusion Team at Booz Allen Hamilton, where she is responsible for all 

diversity hiring efforts. Ms. Hardy has a Master’s in human resources management and has worked in various recruiting and consulting positions and specializes in diversity recruiting strategies 

and techniques. 

Sally Sullivan is an Executive Vice President of ManTech International Corporation and leads ManTech’s public affairs, communications, and business development functions. Prior to joining 

ManTech, Ms. Sullivan served as Vice President for Defense, 

Space, and Secured Infrastructure at Bechtel National and Sector 

Vice President for Business Development at Northrop Grumman. 

You have hung out in the defense sector, have you not. 

Ms. SULLIVAN. Yes, Senator. 

Senator MCCASKILL. It is the custom of this Subcommittee to 

swear in all witnesses that appear before us, so if you do not mind, 

I would like to ask you to stand. 

Do you swear that the testimony that you will give before this 

Subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 

the truth, so help you, God? 

Mr. DAYWALT. I do. 

Mr. KYMPTON. I do. 

Mr. SULAYMAN. I do. 

Ms. HARDY. I do. 

Ms. SULLIVAN. I do. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Thank you, and let the record reflect that 

the witnesses have all answered in the affirmative. 

We will be using a timing system today. We will not be strict, 

so be comfortable. Do not worry that we are going to hit a buzzer 

or a gong. We would ask that your oral testimony try to be around 

5 minutes. Your written testimony will be printed in the record in 

its entirety. 

And if you would begin, Mr. Daywalt, we appreciate you being 

here. 
5 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Daywalt appears in the appendix on page 41. 

TESTIMONY OF TED L. DAYWALT,1 PRESIDENT AND CHIEF 

EXECUTIVE OFFICER, VETJOBS 

Mr. DAYWALT. Thank you, Madam Chairman. I appreciate you 

having me here and I want to thank the staff here, as well. 

VetJobs has a unique vantage point in this discussion as by the 

nature of our business over the last 13 years, VetJobs has dealt 

with veterans and their family members on a daily basis who are 

pursuing employment with government contractors. A big part of 

our membership base are government contractors, and VetJobs assists all veterans and their family members to find work. From our 

perspective at VetJobs, we find that, for the most part, government 

contractors are enthusiastic employers of veterans. 

When looking at veteran employment, it helps to understand 

that from an employer’s perspective, there are three groups that 

comprise the post-military service veteran employment picture. The 

first group would be those who are transitioning off active duty 

with no further military obligation who are most frequently referred to just as veterans. This group is the most desirable of the 

veteran groups from which employers prefer to hire since candidates have no further military obligation and come with many 

skills and the attributes wanted by employers. 

The second group is comprised of the Federal Reservists of the 

Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, and Marine Corps. While 

these veterans have the same attributes as the transitioning military, they are subject to being called up on a regular basis. 

The third group is the National Guard. While all three groups 

are veterans, it helps to make the distinctions when analyzing how 

the veterans are being employed or why employers prefer one type 

of veteran over another. In going to the numbers you cited at the 

opening, Madam Chairman, the biggest part of the veteran unemployment problem is in the National Guard. For the most part, 

those coming off active duty are getting jobs, not that there are not 

problems, but they are finding employment. The overall unemployment for all veterans in May was only 7.7 percent current population survey (CPS). 

Of the three groups, the National Guard has unique problems 

and is the least preferred source of veterans. Unlike active duty 

component members when National Guard component members return from war they are demobilized and thus do not have a ready 

source of income unless they can find or have a civilian job. Given 

the bias against hiring National Guard members due to the callup policies and high operation tempo, National Guard members 

have problems maintaining a continuum of service with a civilian 

employer. 

Additionally, since the National Guard component member belongs to the State and reports to the Governor of a State or a Territory, the National Guard personnel are used for local emergencies, 

such as flooding and hurricanes, security, which takes them away 

from their employer. For example, the National Guard in Georgia, 

which is where we are headquartered, has had six 1-year-plus callups in the last 10 years. Now, that makes it really hard to keep 

a job, even if you are only on three of them. 
6 

Many studies have found that due to the constant call-ups, employers shy away from hiring active members of the National 

Guard and Reserves. Business Law Review, Workforce Management and the Society of Human Resource Management (SHRM) 

have done studies that show that upwards of 70 percent of employers will not now hire as a new employee an active member of the 

National Guard. Fortunately, many of the government contractors 

are supporters of the National Guard and Reserve and this is important since the National Guard and Reserve now represents over 

50 percent of our total fighting force. 

It is important to understand why employers make hires. Some 

Department of Labor officials like to tout how many unemployed 

people there are for each job opening in the country and bemoan 

the fact that employers of horrible profit-making companies are not 

hiring the unemployed. DOL and other government officials who 

make these statements are displaying a gross misunderstanding of 

how our economy works and why employers hire candidates. 

Employers do not hire someone just because they are standing 

and breathing or they are unemployed. Employers hire candidates 

to fill a need within the company. The bottom line is employers 

look for qualified candidates to hire. If one were to ask how many 

qualified candidates exist for each job opening in the company, you 

would have huge, very large, negative numbers in disciplines like 

health care, engineering, maintenance, electricians, welders. Right 

now, they are paying $45 an hour with all the overtime you can 

get for welders in the upper Midwest and they cannot find enough 

welders. It is going to probably go to $50 by the end of the summer. 

Government contractors are major employers. Many have discussed with me the problems of finding qualified candidates to hire. 

And for that reason, government contractors like to hire veterans 

because, generally, they have excellent skill sets and they have the 

attributes that they want. 

In my written testimony, I use an example of a stellar government contractor, BNSF Railroad. You have a couple others sitting 

right here at this table. They are to be commended for their 

proactive hiring of veterans. 

Also in my written testimony, I review the obstacles that hinder 

government contractors from hiring veterans. Those obstacles include the VETS–100 report, which in my personal opinion is kind 

of a waste of time because it is not relevant, it is not timely, and 

it is not actionable. The Office of Federal Contract Compliance Program actually kind of disincentivizes companies who want to hire 

veterans, and there are huge problems in the Transition Assistance 

Program. All need to be reviewed, and in the case of VETS–100, 

I would recommend you get rid of it. 

Thank you for your time. I trust the information presented will 

be of assistance. I will be happy to answer any questions you have, 

ma’am. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Thank you very much, Mr. Daywalt. 

I welcome Senator Begich from Alaska here. Thank you, Senator 

Begich, for joining us. Mr. Kympton. 
7 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Kympton appears in the appendix on page 52. 

TESTIMONY OF SPENCER KYMPTON,1 CHIEF OPERATING 

OFFICER, THE MISSION CONTINUES 

Mr. KYMPTON. Madam Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to participate in these important hearings. Based on my experience as a veteran and my service 

at The Mission Continues, I believe that this Subcommittee is 

doing work that is critical to the success of today’s generation of 

veterans. 

Today, I am testifying as a West Point graduate and former 

Army helicopter pilot and as a veteran who sought meaningful employment after military service. I now serve as the Chief Operating 

Officer of The Mission Continues, a national nonprofit organization 

where we have worked with over 350 veterans to pursue successful 

transitions to civilian life. 

Based on these experiences with veteran recruitment and retention, I believe that there are several key lessons that Federal contractors and corporate leaders can apply to successfully tap into the 

great skills of today’s veteran. Applying these lessons will strengthen their organizations while also building successful transitions for 

veterans. 

At The Mission Continues, we create successful transitions by 

engaging veterans in 6-month community service fellowships. 

Today, a cavalry scout mentors hundreds of children at the Boys 

and Girls Club. A Marine Corps sergeant helps his community prepare for disasters and emergencies through the American Red 

Cross. An Army communications specialist teaches English as a 

Second Language to immigrant children and their parents. 

We introduce these fellows to a meaningful mission. We welcome 

them onto a distinct team. And we ask them to don a new uniform 

of service. As they serve, we provide them with living stipends and 

mentors. At the end of their fellowship, we will challenge them to 

mark their lifetime commitment to service by executing a service 

project in their community. After their fellowship, they move on to 

realize their post-fellowship goal of full-time employment, continued education, or an ongoing role of service in their community. 

Our experiences with these fellows and with more than a thousand veterans who applied for fellowships have shown us this. 

When you connect veterans to a meaningful mission, ask them to 

join a distinct team, and challenge them with a set of goals that 

lead to definable impact, they excel. Just as they excelled in their 

military service, they again excel in their citizen service. 

A primary factor in our selection and placement of fellows is the 

passion they have for service. The cavalry scout serves at the Boys 

and Girls Club because he is fulfilled by mentoring youth. The Marine readies his community because he is passionate about emergency response. Reconnecting to a meaningful mission has been 

critical to their success. 

Our fellows are further enriched by the renewed connection to a 

team. As you know, all enlistees and officers take an oath to support and defend the Constitution upon entering the military. They 

then join their military units, each of which possesses a distinct 

identity and strong traditions. Recently, we gathered more than 
8 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Sulayman appears in the appendix on page 55. 

100 veterans and awarded them Mission Continues Fellowships. 

We asked these fellows to take a similar oath and join this distinct 

new team. In front of thousands of fans at a Major League Baseball 

game, wearing sharp royal blue Mission Continues polo shirts, 

standing at attention alongside their new comrades in arms, these 

fellows proudly recited an oath of service. They walked off the field 

motivated and eager to serve. 

While they serve, we also require that our fellows set and 

achieve goals. They each identify at least three goals for the impact 

they will have in their community. They identify a post-fellowship 

goal that will impact their own lives for years. We hold them accountable to those goals and we partner in their success. 

Roxley Pratt grew up in war-torn Sierra Leone. As a child, he 

marveled at the sentries guarding the U.S. Embassy there. He decided then that he wanted to be a Marine. Years later, after escaping the siege of his city and immigrating to America, he enlisted 

in the United States Marine Corps. He honorably served for 6 

years and his service included deployments to Iraq. Upon his return, people thanked him for his service, but when it came to landing a job, he struggled to get interviews. Unemployed and unable 

to translate his military skills at job fairs in Southern California, 

Roxley found The Mission Continues. Driven by his own experiences with homelessness and his personal responsibility to assist 

those less fortunate, he earned a fellowship with Habitat for Humanity. He is reconnected to a mission that is important to him. 

He is working on distinct teams, his team at The Mission Continues, his team at Habitat for Humanity, and the teams of volunteers he now organizes. He is translating military skills to civilian 

skills and he is excelling. 

Roxley’s story can be the story of this generation of veterans. It 

is a story of service in war and continued service at home. 

Madam Chairman, we are grateful for your support and the support of this Subcommittee. I would welcome any questions that you 

or other Members may have. Thank you. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Thank you. Mr. Sulayman. 

TESTIMONY OF RAMSEY SULAYMAN,1 LEGISLATIVE 

ASSOCIATE, IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN VETERANS OF AMERICA 

Mr. SULAYMAN. Madam Chairman, Ranking Member, distinguished Members of the Subcommittee, on behalf of more than 

200,000 members and supporters of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans 

of America, I thank you for the opportunity to share our views on 

this important issue. 

I have spent 14 years in the Marine Corps trying to execute the 

Marine Corps’ two missions, winning battles and making Marines. 

As an IAVA staff member, I do not make soldiers, sailors, airmen, 

or marines, but I do try and make their lives better. The views expressed in this testimony reflect the views and analysis of IAVA 

and not the United States Marine Corps. 

Thank you for your attention to the pressing issues facing our 

Nation’s veterans. Unemployment is arguably the most pressing 

issue facing veterans today. While recent statistics may indicate 
9 

that the employment outlook might be getting better for veterans, 

the situation is still worse than it ought to be. For example, the 

unemployment rate for veterans 18 to 24 years old is nearly double 

the rate for 18 to 24 year-old civilians. 

Helping veterans create their own jobs via small business has 

been touted as part of the solution. Many people have wondered 

whether Federal contracting laws and goals are being met, and if 

not, what is the best manner in which to do so. 

There are three main areas to consider: Data, outreach, and 

implementable solutions. I will address outreach first. IAVA believes that the logical place to begin is through the Transition Assistance Program (TAP), and in the Marine Corps (TAMP). Because 

TAP is now mandatory for all service members, it is a convenient 

touch point that will allow for the dissemination of information on 

Federal contracting processes and opportunities and the most basic 

level of training to the widest possible audience. The Small Business Administration (SBA) is currently developing an entrepreneurship track for TAP and we believe that this will be a key component in setting veterans up for success. 

We also believe that allowing veterans and their spouses to retake TAP after separating, as proposed in S. 2246, the TAP Modernization Act of 2012, is a necessary step. Allowing a veteran or 

spouse who has completed one track of TAP—education, for instance—to retake a different track based on new circumstances, in 

this case an entrepreneurship track, is a small investment on the 

front end which we believe will pay big dividends on the back end. 

On the question of data, we must ask, what do we know and 

what do we wish to know? There is a lot of data to be had, but 

much of it is dispersed among different agencies. VETS–100 and 

100A has some meaningful data, but only as a snapshot. It is also 

not easily accessible. The information is more akin to a head count 

and misses some crucial information. Because VETS–100 and 100A 

allows reporting of veterans employed at any point during the filing year, there is no guarantee that the level of veteran employment by a Federal contractor or subcontractor is consistently reliable or accurate. A contractor may have 100 veterans at the beginning of the year and two at the end and can report 100 veterans 

employed. 

In addition, without the inclusion of other relevant information, 

the value of the VETS–100 and 100A forms is limited. Some good 

examples would be the North American Industry Classification 

System Codes that allow tracking the number of veteran contractors by industry type and the era from which the veteran hails. 

These pieces of information would help elucidate in which industries veteran contractors are most heavily and lightly concentrated 

and whether that force is declining due to age. Much of that information resides with SBA. 

The certification process for a service disabled veteran-owned 

(SDVO) small business or veteran-owned small business (VOSB) 

should also be easy and consistent. IAVA supports efforts to curb 

fraud and abuse by ascertaining the voracity of SDVO or veteranowned status, but we recognize that the certification process should 

not discourage small businesses with limited resources. We are concerned that the statutorily mandated certification process currently 
10 

used by the Veterans Administration is too cumbersome. Extending 

this system to all Federal agencies, as has been proposed, would be 

unnecessarily burdensome on both government and small businesses. 

It is also worth noting that the VA’s Center for Veterans Enterprise site, www.vetbiz.gov, was down for approximately 2 weeks. It 

was up last Thursday and is now back down again for maintenance 

and there is no information posted as to when new veterans may 

expect to be able to register their businesses online. 

The Small Business Administration has relied on self-certification and has experienced little fraud. IAVA believes that maintaining this system with some enhanced documentation requirements will help ease the burden on SDVO and veteran-owned 

small businesses while helping to guarantee that the consideration 

earned through service to country is not abused. 

As far as solutions go, during research for this testimony, we 

pursued many different leads on making the system more efficient 

and increasing the number of veteran contractors. Many of the recommendations we heard often already exist in some form. 

For example, the idea of searchable centralized database of veteran contractors that could be used by Federal contracting officers 

and Federal contractors already exists as the Central Contractor 

Registration (CCR), and Dynamic Small Business Search (DSBS), 

systems. The use of those resources to find veteran contractors, 

even by Federal contracting officers, appears to be less than optimal because, we were told, many people choose, quote, ‘‘the path 

of least resistance,’’ end quote. 

Part of the assessment of the problem will require review of the 

use of existing systems and processes, but without data that is substantial, accessible, and easy to understand, implementing solutions is a little bit akin to shooting first and aiming later. Some 

of the reviews of this data are already underway and ideally will 

result in clarifying best and worst practices so good solutions can 

be found. 

We also believe that VA and DOL should be funnels to the Small 

Business Administration. SBA are the experts on small business 

and should be the prime actor in this area. 

IAVA strongly welcomes the efforts of Congress, the Executive 

Branch, and private industry in increasing the number of veteran 

contractors, whether those contractors are fulfilling government or 

private contracts. As part of our commitment, IAVA is willing to 

spread the word about available opportunities or training to our 

membership and the greater population through our extensive social media outreach. We are also able and willing to partner with 

either government agencies or private corporations in targeted efforts to help increase veteran employment through our programs, 

such as Smart Job Fairs held in partnership with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. 

We believe that employment is the No. 1 issue facing the veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan and will only become more important as the war in Afghanistan ends. IAVA appreciates the efforts 

of this Subcommittee and the other witnesses and we look forward 

to helping in any way we can. Thank you, and I am prepared to 

answer any questions that you have. 
11 

1The prepared statement of Ms. Hardy appears in the appendix on page 58. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Thank you. Ms. Hardy. 

TESTIMONY OF PAMELA HARDY,1 SENIOR MANAGER, 

DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION TEAM, BOOZ ALLEN HAMILTON 

Ms. HARDY. Madam Chairman and distinguished Members of the 

Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to testify here today. I 

testify as a Senior Manager in the Diversity and Inclusion Team 

at Booz Allen Hamilton, where I am responsible for all aspect of 

our organizational efforts to build and maintain a diverse and inclusive culture for all employees at the firm. That includes making 

Booz Allen an employer of choice for veterans. 

Booz Allen is based in McLean, Virginia, and we have over 80 

offices throughout the United States. For nearly a century, our 

work has helped U.S. Government agencies, defense components, 

and other business and institutional clients better execute the most 

challenging government missions around the world. 

Forbes Magazine recently reported that Booz Allen ranked as the 

top employer for veterans, citing the approximately one-third of our 

employees who have self-identified as having military backgrounds. 

We have also been recognized by the National Guard and the Reserve as well as by the Disabled American Veterans (DAV) organization for outstanding practices that support veterans. And we are 

honored to have been named in the top 10 of the G.I. Jobs List of 

top 100 military-friendly employers for 6 years running. 

Booz Allen leads in veterans’ employment because our commitment to veterans and wounded warriors is part of our corporate 

culture, coordinated by our senior leadership and extending 

throughout the firm. We approach this commitment by involving 

multiple aspects and layers of our business, much like we integrate 

our various capabilities for our clients. We hire veterans because 

of this commitment and because veterans bring a unique knowledge and experience base to their work. Few can know the challenges that face our U.S. military and other government clients 

better than those who have served our country in uniform. 

For these reasons, Booz Allen supports the government’s efforts 

to encourage the hiring of former military members and we believe 

that the current regulatory construct strikes the right balance in 

allowing contractors like Booz Allen to explore and develop programs that work best for their particular organizations. We approach military hiring, for instance, through a variety of creative 

recruitment programs, but we also leverage the wide range of expertise we provide to military clients, such as knowledge of veterans’ health services. To help us attract and support new hires, 

we support veteran-owned businesses through our contracting organization. 

We use members of our own veteran workforce to mentor and 

support other veteran employees through employee resource 

groups, mentoring circles, education, and leadership programs and 

other means. We focus on programs to support military families 

and spouses. And, importantly, veterans and wounded warriors are 

a major focus and beneficiary of the firm’s philanthropic efforts. 
12 

1The prepared statement of Ms. Sullivan appears in the appendix on page 63. 

In our prepared statement, we detail several hiring and retention 

programs that have made us so successful. In hiring, we foster 

strategic recruitment partnerships with nonprofit organizations in 

the military community. We also run a Junior Military Officers 

Program to put recently separated junior officers directly in contact 

with our military recruiting team. And we participate in the U.S. 

Army Partnership for Youth Success Program by pledging to provide future full-time employment positions for qualified Armytrained veterans. 

We retain veterans through initiatives at our firm and in the 

surrounding community. We offer an employee resource group 

known as the Armed Services Forum to give former members of the 

military a forum to interact with each other and navigate their 

transition into the civilian workplace. We have a proactive disability accommodations program, generous military leave, and return policies for Reservists, and we conduct targeted training and 

development programs to help veterans convert skills they learned 

in the military into skills they can use and market at Booz Allen. 

We have also hosted several collaborative community summits 

across the country to better understand and improve service delivery to veterans across local government, advocacy, health care, and 

other community organizations. 

While we believe our firm is already effective in employing veterans, we recognize that there is more work we all need to do. Collaboration among industry, veterans’ organizations, and the government is of paramount importance, and we particularly support 

the Subcommittee’s efforts to enhance this type of collaboration. 

Madam Chairman, thank you again for permitting me the opportunity to discuss this important issue with you today. I welcome 

any questions you may have. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Thank you very much. Ms. Sullivan. 

TESTIMONY OF SALLY SULLIVAN,1 EXECUTIVE VICE 

PRESIDENT, MANTECH INTERNATIONAL CORPORATION 

Ms. SULLIVAN. Madam Chairman and distinguished Members of 

the Subcommittee, I am honored on behalf of ManTech International Corporation to appear before you this morning to share 

our experiences in hiring and retaining our Nation’s veterans. 

ManTech is a global employer to almost 10,000 people. That 

roughly 40 percent of our employees today proudly identify themselves as having served or are currently serving in the U.S. military is evidence of the success we enjoy as a company and a culture 

that successfully attracts those exiting the military and assimilates 

them into the civilian workforce on a sustained basis. ManTech 

provides those leaving the military with the opportunity to join the 

civilian workforce, the opportunity to gain additional job skills and 

training, health care coverage, and the opportunity to continue to 

serve their country and support an important mission as a contractor. 

As the majority of our work today supports the U.S. military and 

intelligence community, a large number of the career opportunities 

available at ManTech are for positions that directly support mis-
13 

sion requirements and typically require skills gained through military service and the possession of active security clearances. Many 

of our recruiting activities are focused on engaging those who are 

in the process of exiting the military or those who have recently 

exited. 

ManTech is an active member of more than a dozen military employment partnerships, such as the 100,000 Jobs Mission, the Military Spouse Employment Partnership, Wounded Warrior Project, 

Hiring Our Heroes, and VA for Vets. We also build and maintain 

relationships directly with colleges and universities that support 

the G.I. Bill and offer programs developed especially for veterans. 

Over the past year, we have participated in more than 125 hiring 

events spanning 72 cities nationwide. As a result, we connected 

with more than 5,000 veterans and hired more than 2,000 of them. 

As part of our outreach to recruits, we work closely with the 

Transition Assistance Program sponsored by the U.S. military. 

Through TAP, we offer onsite assistance to active duty soldiers who 

will be leaving the military, including practical advice on how to 

develop and write a resume, how to interview for a job, and how 

the civilian job environment works. 

Of the many things we do to retain our employees, to include veterans, ManTech offers educational skills and career development 

training as well as mentorship opportunities. Our educational programs are offered through ManTech University (MTU), a first-class 

award-winning corporate university established to support the 

emerging training and educational needs of our employees. Additionally, MTU has alliances with 13 different accredited universities offering certificates, Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees, and 

mini-MBAs, both online and in traditional classroom settings. In 

2011, a large percentage of our veteran employees took advantage 

of training opportunities through ManTech University. More than 

40,000 courses were successfully completed by our veterans, roughly 10 courses per veteran employee. 

Many of ManTech’s contracts require foreign deployments, so 

ManTech offers two specific programs to assist family members of 

deployed individuals. One program, called LifeWorks, provides employees and family members free confidential access to resources 

and counseling 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. This program offers expert guidance on health-related issues, addiction, grief and 

loss, financial ideas, how to parent a difficult child or teenager, and 

how to cope with stress. 

Constant Care, a second program offered by ManTech, is an internally staffed program available to employees 24 hours a day, 

365 days a year, by human resource professionals who have the 

knowledge and experience to assist deployed employees and their 

families. Constant Care is similar to the Military Ombudsman program and, therefore, is familiar and well received by veterans and 

their families. 

As a result of retention efforts such as these, many of our new 

recruits come as referrals from existing employees, which accounts 

in part for ManTech being named Number Six Top Military Friendly Employers by G.I. Jobs Magazine, Most Valuable Employer for 

the Military by CivilianJobs.com, one of the country’s most veteran- 
14 

friendly employers by USAA Magazine, and the Top Ten Best Employer for Veterans by Military Times Edge Magazine. 

Now, let me comment on ManTech’s experience with assembling 

and filing information regarding veterans and the Department of 

Labor. Logistically, the assembling and reporting information required by the Department of Labor for the VETS–100A is an automated process by database systems that capture employee information at the initial stage of the hiring process, when information required for payroll, health benefits, taxes, et cetera, is input into our 

systems when new hires join ManTech. Each new employee is 

asked to self-identify if they are a veteran, and this information is 

aggregated and reviewed by human resource specialists as well as 

by our senior management routinely throughout the year. 

Last, you have asked for our suggestions for improving the Federal Government’s effort to facilitate the hiring of veterans by contractors. To answer this question thoughtfully, I engaged with several cognizant employees working in a variety of levels and roles. 

Whether human resource specialist, recruiter, or line manager, 

their answers were very consistent. All felt strongly that the Federal Government already takes many bold and aggressive actions 

to ensure maximum outreach to this important segment of our population. 

Further, we know that companies like ManTech have embraced 

veterans’ outreach. After all, if we have not served ourselves, we 

each have family members and loved ones who have selflessly 

served our Nation or are serving today. 

Our recommendation is to stay the course with those efforts we 

have in place today. 

Madam Chairman, that concludes my oral statement and I am 

pleased to answer any further questions. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Thank you all very much. 

It was interesting. I try to visit small businesses in my State 

from time to time and I actually had a visit with a plumbing supply house in St. Louis, and this is not a large employer, less than 

50 employees. The people that work there, most of them have 

worked there many years. So they want to be careful when they 

hire someone because they assume when they hire someone, they 

are going to be with them for years. 

I did not go there to talk about hiring veterans, but they brought 

it up with me. And the man that owns the company said it was 

incredibly difficult for them to find veterans, and he mentioned a 

couple of things and I would love your take on this, Mr. Daywalt. 

First, he said that the Web sites that in their experience, as they 

looked at the various listings on the Web sites, they were taken 

aback at how many people had put information on the Web site 

that were not veterans, that people had been able to access various 

Web sites and put their employment—that they were anxious to 

get employed, and then when they actually did the due diligence, 

they found that people were signing up on these Web sites that 

were not veterans at all. So they found that overwhelming. Because 

this is a small operation, they did not really have—they ended up 

working at this for a while. I mean, they spent a lot of time and 

energy. They finally found two applicants that they are in the final 

process of interviewing. 
15 

The other thing he mentioned to me, and I would like your take 

on both of these issues, is matching. He said, at the veterans’ jobs 

fairs and the places they were going to access, there would be employers there like banks and Enterprise Rental Car, AnheuserBusch, and they needed people for their warehouse. They were not 

able to hire someone who was disabled because they needed someone who was going to help them load plumbing supplies into the 

warehouse and out of the warehouse and deliver these plumbing 

supplies. And he said it was clear to him how inefficient this was 

because you had all these employers that wanted a much different 

employee than he was looking for. And he said that, once again, 

took hours and hours of their time and effort to try to match up 

the right veteran with the right job opportunity. 

So if you could, if you would address those two issues that this 

particular employer in St. Louis was struggling with. 

Mr. DAYWALT. Yes, Madam Chairman. Excuse me. I am suffering 

from allergies. 

Your comment about candidates in a job board database not 

being vets does not surprise me. There are a number of sites out 

there that do not validate who the person is that is putting up the 

resume. You have over 300,000 Internet job boards out there. You 

have about 30 left in the military space. The leaders are VetJobs, 

MilitaryHire, and Corporate Gray, and the three of us actually do 

validate each person that is putting up their resume. With some 

of the others, they will let anybody put up a resume. And in reality, most veterans do not put their resumes up on the Internet. 

We are getting over 200,000 visitors a month, but we only have 

140,000 active resumes, as it has been hammered into us that our 

friends over in the sandbox are using sites like VetSuccess or other 

free sites to track down veterans to go attack them here in this 

country. I wish the press would cover that more. 

But I hear that from a lot of employers because until they need 

to make a hire, they are not always aware of who the players in 

a given space are. It is sort of like I do not know any heart doctors, 

but if all of a sudden I needed to have a heart operation, I might 

start doing a lot of research to find out who is going to be a good 

one. So it is not a common thing that everybody uses on a daily 

basis. 

Regarding the matching, the more advanced sites—ours being 

one of them, MilitaryHire is another good example—have matching 

mechanisms and career assessment tests that we have people—we 

use the CRI tests out of Forth Worth, where we can identify a veteran that matches best with the employer. And the way you do it 

at VetJobs, we have customer service reps. When a customer puts 

up a job, and we have about 52,000 jobs up today, when they are 

key jobs, we will go into the database, identify people, and refer 

them in to our customers. We have had a pretty good success rate. 

But a lot of the complaints that he or she was voicing really 

comes from just not understanding how the system works and it 

is because it is not a system that is used day in and day out. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Well, what would you suggest, if anything, 

maybe part of the problem in this area is all of us want to help. 

Mr. DAYWALT. Right. 
16 

Senator MCCASKILL. And sometimes, all best intentions have 

ugly endings in government. And, frankly, I am beginning to believe that this reporting requirement to the Department of Labor 

is a good example of that—— 

Mr. DAYWALT. Yes, ma’am. 

Senator MCCASKILL [continuing]. Where all best intentions, 

where we were going to try to keep track of contractors hiring veterans, but no one is doing the due diligence to make that effort 

really meaningful in any way. 

What could we do that would help an employer like Crescent 

Plumbing Supply in St. Louis find veterans in a way that is more 

efficient for them? Now, these are great folks and they just kept 

working at it until they found two because they wanted to do this 

because they love their country and they want to hire veterans. 

But I am not sure very many businesses as small as this business 

is would have spent the time and effort they spent at it. What 

should we be doing to make this easier? I am surprised that your 

Web site would not pop up as one of the first if you went on to 

search ‘‘hiring veterans’’—— 

Mr. DAYWALT. We generally pop up in the top three or four. 

Senator MCCASKILL. And is it very clear on your Web site that 

all of the veterans on there have been certified as veterans? 

Mr. DAYWALT. Well, yes. 

Senator MCCASKILL. OK. 

Mr. DAYWALT. I mean, we have some people who put their resumes up that were not veterans. We take them out. But some suggestions to help improve the system, one would be to have your veterans’ representatives at the workforce centers, what they call 

Local Veteran Employment Reps (LVERs) and Disabled Veteran 

Opportunity Programs (DVOPs)—— 

Senator MCCASKILL. I speak that foreign language now. 

Mr. DAYWALT. OK. 

Senator MCCASKILL. I have been on the Armed Services Committee for 6 years. 

Mr. DAYWALT. We make jokes—— 

Senator MCCASKILL. I can do the acronym dance with you. 

Mr. DAYWALT. We make jokes, you have to have a dictionary to 

understand the military acronyms, but having more of them familiar with what goes on—and I am a little outspoken, I am not politically correct, but, madam, you have a lot of people in the DOL who 

are the classic bureaucrats. They would have a wonderful job if it 

were not for all these damn people coming in wanting help. And 

they do not take the initiative. And I will give you a real good example. 

We had a veteran down there in Georgia who needed a job. He 

is in his 50s. He had been sitting over at the DOL office for 3 days 

trying to get help to get a job, and each day he would go in and 

say, ‘‘Oh, we have you in the system now. Welcome back. You are 

in our system now. You are in the system now.’’ He did not give 

a damn about being in the system. He wanted a job. 

So someone had him give us a call and we found out where he 

was living. He did not have a car. Did a Google search of his apartment and found a Publix supermarket, a Target, and a Wal-Mart 

all within walking distance of his apartment complex. We called 
17 

the managers of those three stores and all three of them said, send 

him over. They interviewed him. Two of them made a job offer and 

he took one of them. He went with Target because they paid more 

than the others. But we did all that inside of 20 minutes. 

Why can you not have this $50,000 bureaucrat sitting on their 

butt in a nice air conditioned office do the same thing? Because 

there is no penalty and no incentive to go out and do it. I know 

that is not politically correct, but that is the brute reality and we 

deal with that day in and day out down in our office. 

But having them better educated as to what the real resources 

are for their local area, because all employment is on a local 

level—— 

Senator MCCASKILL. Right. 

Mr. DAYWALT [continuing]. And being able to direct somebody as 

to what are the good sites, what are the—we put out a listing of 

what we consider to be all the legitimate job boards on the Internet 

because there are so many rip-offsites, especially targeting veterans and their spouses. But that would be a big move forward if 

they would do that. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Well, I think we have to figure out a way 

to try to remove as much as this as possible from the Federal Government and put it in the State and local offices where frankly, 

they are going to be the ones that are going to have the best ears 

to the ground. 

Mr. DAYWALT. Yes, ma’am. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Let me ask about—both Booz Allen and 

ManTech. You all have great records. Both of your companies told 

us that the reporting requirements were not burdensome on your 

companies. I am not sure that they are providing much value, but 

you did say they were not burdensome. 

Let me ask you this about the National Guard problem. Are the 

majority of the people that you are hiring actually those that are 

leaving active service as opposed to National Guard? 

Ms. SULLIVAN. I cannot talk to those statistics. I know that we 

capture those, and I could probably look through my files here and 

see what those numbers are. 

I was thinking about congressional mandate programs and one 

of the congressionally mandated programs that we absolutely love, 

and we know it has a high impact and it does make a difference 

and it has to do with those who are in the process of separating 

from the military and that is that TAP program. I think—— 

Senator MCCASKILL. Right, the Transition—— 

Ms. SULLIVAN. Yes. In the Army—— 

Senator MCCASKILL. Transition Assistance Program? 

I think they call it the Army Career Alumni Program (ACAP). 

They might call it a little bit different. But this is where you can 

really, work with them and help them think through how to write 

a resume. 

Right. 

Ms. SULLIVAN [continuing]. I will look through our numbers, and 

I may not be able to comment here, but I do not think that the majority of them are National Guard or Reserves. They are typically 

ones who are separating from the military. 
18 

Senator MCCASKILL. Right. If you would get those numbers for 

us, that would be helpful, Ms. Sullivan. 

Ms. SULLIVAN. Mm-hmm. 

Senator MCCASKILL. And how about you, Ms. Hardy? I assume 

the same thing is probably true for Booz-Allen, that the majority 

are those that are separating from active service? 

Ms. HARDY. Correct, and about 11 percent of our 30 percent of 

our hires self-identify as having recently separated, representing, 

one, the highest overall diversity constituency group within the 

firm, but also indicating that these individuals are coming directly 

from the military, from active duty to Booz Allen as a first stop. 

I do not have the numbers for the Reservists but we do capture 

them and certainly can provide that to the Subcommittee. 

Senator MCCASKILL. I think it would be really important to get 

those numbers, and let me ask you, Mr. Sulayman, I think this National Guard situation is a crisis. I think it is something that we 

are kind of sweeping under the rug and not paying close attention 

to. When I was the elected prosecutor in Kansas City, I remember 

looking at resumes and thinking the National Guard was a really 

good thing. Now, that was before it became an operational reserve. 

And I think the testimony that was given here today demonstrates the problem. These companies are not hiring people just 

because they want to hire a veteran. They are hiring them because 

they need them for their ongoing business operations and you cannot blame them for not wanting to hire someone and train them 

thinking they are going to be gone four or five times over a 6-or 

7-year period, or 4 or 5 times over a 7-or 8-year period, or even 4 

or 5 times over a 10-year period. 

Now, I know we are drawing down in Afghanistan and obviously 

we have drawn down in Iraq, but I think that we have permanently injured the ability of the National Guard to get employment 

in our country by the way we have made these changes, and I do 

not think they were well thought out. I get it. We did not have 

enough boots and we had to do it because our ground force was not 

big enough, but what I do not think they anticipated that there 

was going to be this problem and I think it is one of the reasons 

that we have had some of the problems with suicides and some of 

the other issues that we are seeing in our military. 

What would you recommend that we could do, short of convincing 

our military leadership that they need to go back to the old way 

in terms of utilizing the Guard and the Reserve? What could we 

do that would help this problem? 

Mr. SULAYMAN. Well, ma’am, I mean, you really hit on the big 

crux of the matter, is that the National Guard and the Reserves 

have been used in unprecedented fashion in the conflicts in Iraq 

and Afghanistan. They have been used as an operational reserve. 

I know that in briefings I have been to at the Pentagon, the Army 

has talked about their Force Generation Model that they refer to 

as ARFORGEN. It envisions Guard and Reserve units activating at 

least once, or they say once every 5 years. So out of every 5-year 

period, you can expect to be deployed out of the National Guard or 

Reserve, and more often if you are switching units and you happen 

to catch the unit at the right or the wrong time, depending on your 

opinion, in the cycle. And that is going to be a continued issue, par-
19 

ticularly with smaller employers who can stand to absorb that loss 

less well. 

I know that what we have heard from our membership, somewhat anecdotally, is that they are not getting hired because they 

are in the Guard or Reserve and that employers have—it is one of 

the questions that they are often asked. Are you in the Guard or 

Reserve? Are you anticipating deploying any time soon? And that 

there are some bills both in the House and the Senate that are designed at strengthening the Uniformed Services Employment and 

Reemployment Rights Act (USERRA) protections and make that 

law a little bit tougher. But, really—— 

Senator MCCASKILL. And USERRA protections are the protections that were put into the law that prohibit the discrimination 

against members of the Guard and Reserve in connection with 

their military service. 

Mr. SULAYMAN. Yes, ma’am. So having those employment and reemployment rights a little bit stronger, we believe is always a good 

thing. But we think that incentivizing employers it is better to dangle the carrot than break out the stick. We believe that most employers want to hire veterans. It is just, like you said, those concerns of missing out an employee who you anticipate having, especially if you are a small or medium-sized business. 

That is really a tough question. We have been trying to work 

with employers through our Smart Job Fairs to convince them that 

here is the value of a Guard or Reservist and that they may be 

gone for a year out of a 5-year period, but their skills as managers 

and leaders are going to be sharper and—I deployed with a Reserve 

unit to Iraq. I was a light armored reconnaissance unit. We had, 

obviously, heavily mechanical and we had a lot of mechanics in the 

civilian world who I would say that after the 9-months that we 

were deployed, tearing engines out and tearing them apart and rebuilding them in a foot and a half of moondust sand in the Iraqi 

desert without any electricity, without any water, without any lifts, 

basically improvising all this, the Cummins diesel engines and 

transmissions, Detroit diesel engines that run the trucks that they 

repaired back in their civilian lives, that made them much better 

and more efficient at their jobs once they returned home. 

And that is really a job of selling that to potential employers, because the Army, as you said, and the Marine Corps, which is, I understand, going to operate on a similar Force Generation Model 

with respect to reserves, are not going to change that because of 

the operational commitments that we have and what they need to 

fulfill. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Let me turn to Senator Begich for some 

questions, and then I have some additional questions I will ask 

when he is completed. Senator Begich. 

Senator BEGICH. Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. 

First, I appreciate you all being here and giving us some insight 

on what we need to do about employment for veterans. My State 

has about 11, 12 percent of the population are veterans, the highest per capita in the Nation, so we have a lot of need and, as you 

can imagine, a lot of issues that come up. 

When I was mayor, just to followup on the Guard issue, the Employer Support for the Guard and Reserve (ESGR), we always 
20 

signed up on it because we wanted to make sure people were taken 

care of no matter where they were. Is there an—let me just throw 

an idea and I have a couple of questions more specific to it. Anyone 

who wants to answer, and I will start with you, Ramsey, if it is 

OK. To create an incentive for the businesses to—they know they 

are going to be gone for a period of time. The question is how long 

can you keep those kind of jobs open. Is there, through tax policy, 

is there an opportunity to create incentives to incentivize them not 

only to hire them, but to keep that space open and creating flex 

schedules? I do not know who wants to answer—— 

Mr. DAYWALT. Yes, I will answer that, sir. I have testified about 

this several times in the past. Tax incentives, while nice and a ‘‘feel 

good’’ from a political standpoint, is not a driver to get people 

hired. And what I hear from employers, I mean, they love getting 

the people off active duty, but—— 

Senator BEGICH. Right. 

Mr. DAYWALT [continuing]. They would be more than willing to 

support members of the National Guard and Reserve if they were 

compensated for when their employee is taken away. 

Senator BEGICH. Got it. 

Mr. DAYWALT. So if Sulayman works for me and he gets called 

up, I want a direct cash stipend so that I can hire a contractor to 

do his job until he gets back. That is the cost of doing business. 

Senator BEGICH. Get you. 

Mr. DAYWALT. I cannot spend the tax credit. And one of the big 

problems with a lot of tax credits is that once the Department of 

Labor lays on all their tracking requirements, I may be getting 

$9,600 back, but it may be costing me $11,000 for all of the reporting and tracking. 

Senator BEGICH. Just to keep track of that. 

Mr. DAYWALT. And I am not going to make it up in volume. 

Senator BEGICH. So the better approach, at least from your view, 

is if there is an opportunity to do a differential, a cash differential 

for the period of time deployed so you can at least keep the work 

flow moving—— 

Mr. DAYWALT. Yes, but see, you have a bigger problem. It is a 

systemic problem. The USERRA was written for when people were 

gone on the weekend or maybe a 2-week active duty—— 

Senator BEGICH. Right. Two weeks. 

Mr. DAYWALT. It was not designed for people being going away 

for 12, 18, or 24 months. So it is out of—it is an anachronism. 

What is happening now, and we documented this when the Iowa 

brigade was called up, they had 750 people that were unemployed, 

a little over 30 percent of the brigade. They did not lose their jobs 

when they were over in Afghanistan. They lost their jobs before 

they left—— 

Senator BEGICH. Right. 

Mr. DAYWALT [continuing]. Because it is announced about day 

160 from mobilization day, and most of them lost their jobs between day 150 down to day 90 because the employers realized that 

if I lay you off under the guise of the recession, I am not subject 

to USERRA because I am not subject to USERRA until you have 

your orders in hand. 

Senator BEGICH. Got you. 
21 

Mr. DAYWALT. Now, if you say that we are going to make 

USERRA effective the moment you announce a unit, nobody will 

ever hire a member of the National Guard. 

Senator BEGICH. Right. 

Mr. DAYWALT. You have a systemic problem. It is the way the 

Guard and Reserve are being used. And until you fix that problem, 

everything else is just going to be a band-aid. 

Senator BEGICH. Very good. 

Mr. SULAYMAN. Sir, I agree in large part with what Mr. Daywalt 

said, but, one of the things that also has to be considered is that 

less than one percent of the population has served in these conflicts. 

Senator BEGICH. That is right. 

Mr. SULAYMAN. So this is not a situation where World War II 

where you had, I think 11 percent is the figure—and so everybody 

had a brother, or cousin, or husband, or wife, or sister, or there 

was a relative, or a neighbor, somebody who was close to you. And 

so everybody had sacrifice. I mean, there was rationing of sugar, 

gas, and stamps. I mean, my grandfather went away and all his 

brothers, and it is interesting to hear my grandmother talk about, 

silk stockings, not being able to have stockings during World War 

II. And I think that is just weird. I mean, it is just something that 

is not in—and I have been in the Marine Corps for 14 years and 

that is something that just does not enter my mind. 

But I think employers have to understand that there is a sacrifice associated with the wars that have been fought and that 

while tax incentives or direct stipends, if those are the carrots that 

we come to understand are the best solutions and that we can afford to do, hey, that would be great. But it is also a matter of the 

country’s shared sacrifice. 

Senator BEGICH. It is a moral obligation. 

Mr. SULAYMAN. Yes, sir. I mean, it is a moral obligation. The Reservists that I took over, a lot of them, as Mr. Daywalt said, lost 

their jobs before we left. Oh, hard economic times, your job is gone. 

And under USERRA, if the job disappears, you do not have to find 

another position. 

So employers understanding that this is part of the shared sacrifice, and hopefully as Afghanistan winds down, this becomes less 

and less of a problem. But as Senator McCaskill pointed out, with 

the unprecedented use and the Army Force Generation Model that 

I was talking about, it remains to be seen exactly what effect that 

is going to have in the future, continuing an operational reserve. 

So we really feel at IAVA that it is a moral obligation. It is a 

small percentage of the population that has been doing a lot of the 

fighting and multiple deployments and—— 

Senator BEGICH. Let me hold you there, only because I want to 

get—I have one quick question left here, and it is a big question, 

but kind of—on January 11, the Government Accountability Office 

(GAO) reported how many different employment training programs 

there are—I think it is 40, 50—between the Department of Labor, 

the Department of Veterans Affairs, and all these other miscellaneous. I am coming more and more to the feeling that maybe we 

consolidate these, put them all in the Department of Veterans Affairs, focus in that arena. 
22 

Just give me a couple of quick thoughts. My time is pretty close 

to being out here. But I just think with so many Department of 

Labor tries, bless their soul, but veterans understand veterans and 

it seems like we should just shift it all, streamline it, and focus on 

what we should be doing, and that is employing and retraining and 

have the Veterans Administration do it in concert with their veterans benefit programs and all these other things they do. Any 

thoughts from folks? 

Mr. SULAYMAN. Yes, sir. There is—— 

Senator MCCASKILL. Take your time. You do not need to hurry. 

Mr. SULAYMAN. OK. There is legislation in the House that is currently working its way through. I think it is H.R. 4072—— 

Senator BEGICH. Right. 

Mr. SULAYMAN [continuing]. Which IAVA supports and is designed to take Department of Labor and the veterans program and 

transfer it wholesale to the VA. We subscribe to the same thinking 

that you have, sir, that Veterans Affairs is what a veteran thinks 

of when—where do I go for help? I am going to the VA. And the 

fact that the legislation is written to just basically make an address 

change is a good thing because it is not diminishing any of the 

functions of—— 

Senator BEGICH. Right. 

Mr. SULAYMAN [continuing]. The vets program—— 

Senator BEGICH. It seems like if you are a vet, you are coming 

in. You are trying to figure out, do I need some more education if 

I want to be in this job, and do I need any medical assistance and 

some of the issues that I might have had or might not have. But 

it seems like you want to do that just kind of in one place—— 

Mr. SULAYMAN. Yes, sir, and DOL Vets has employment outreach 

and VA has employment outreach. And so having DOL Vets move 

and become VA Vets and do the employment for veterans at VA to 

us makes sense because it removes some of that duplicative effort 

that is over at VA and it just centralizes it all. 

And that is a little bit that I talk about in my testimony here, 

as well. With the numbers and the outreach for veterans small 

business, we feel that DOL—or VA should be a conduit, that DOL 

should be a conduit. If veterans come to DOL or VA looking for 

small business help and advice, they should go to the veterans outreach over at SBA because those are the experts, and that is the 

same thing we feel with DOL Vets moving to VA. 

Senator BEGICH. Madam Chairman, can I ask—Ted, were you 

about to say something to that issue? 

Mr. DAYWALT. Oh, no. 

Senator BEGICH. Oh, OK. I appreciate it. Let me just end there. 

You actually answered my second question, which was on the small 

business. You got right to it, because I think the same thing, that 

we want to make sure it is as streamlined as possible. I know there 

are some good efforts being done with TAP and trying to move entrepreneurship. The TAP has a lot of work to be done. I think the 

mind of a soldier going into and having to take that program and 

figure out how—they are not focused on that. I mean, they are focused on, thank God, I am now doing XYZ. I have to go to where 

now for what? 
23 

And I think the more we can improve that, but also entrepreneurs seem like a huge opportunity for veterans. I just met 

some in Alaska on some small companies, all veterans, incredible 

work they are doing, worldwide operations now, small little manufacturing business but very precise. They took their skill, turned it 

into a business that struggled getting their business together, but 

because enough of them banded together, they have some capital. 

It just seems like that is an incredible track for veterans. As someone who comes from a small business world, it seems like this is 

a huge opportunity for the innovation. Ted. 

Mr. DAYWALT. I would like to add to what you just said, Senator. 

I am on the Small Business Council at the U.S. Chamber and I 

have had—I have submitted 11 different ideas of how to help the 

National Guard and Reserve, one of which is for the government 

to put up a pool of money so that—and this would only help maybe 

12, 14 percent of the people in the National Guard—but a pool of 

money where they can draw on, no interest or low interest notes 

so they can buy a franchise. 

Senator BEGICH. Yes. 

Mr. DAYWALT. There are a lot of advantages to that, because veterans tend to hire other veterans. Everybody in VetJobs is either 

in the military, married to the military, or a child of the military— 

do not tell the DOL that, they will say I am discriminating—but 

we do. And if they are in the Guard, you cannot file a USERRA 

complaint against yourself. 

Senator BEGICH. Right. 

Mr. DAYWALT. And while they are gone, their family can be running it while they are deployed, and then when they come back, 

there is no employment problem. There is no loss of benefits. There 

is no loss of income. But it will only help 10 to 14 percent of them, 

and there are a lot of other things to help the others, but entrepreneurship—veterans, study after study—Booz has done a great 

study on that—shows that some of your best entrepreneurs—— 

Senator BEGICH. Are veterans. 

Mr. DAYWALT [continuing]. Were prior military because they 

have that all important quality called leadership and they can understand risk—— 

Senator BEGICH. That is right. 

Mr. DAYWALT [continuing]. Because if I made a mistake out 

there, it cost some of my troops their lives. So you can make a decision very quickly. And so entrepreneurship would be a big part. 

There is no silver bullet. 

Senator BEGICH. Right. 

Mr. DAYWALT. I am always fascinated when I come up here, because everybody is looking for the one silver bullet that is going to 

solve all their problems. Your problem is multifaceted. There is no 

one silver bullet. So you are going to have to do 11, 12, 13 things, 

and none of them are cheap. 

Senator BEGICH. Right. I will just end with this comment. Thank 

you, Madam Chairman, for the chance to ask a couple of questions. 

Again, thank you all for doing what you are doing. 

But you are right on the franchise piece. I have seen some good 

reports and franchisers, which I have looked into many times in 

my years, the veteran component, they look for because of just 
24 

what you said, because they know when they say, OK, build five 

stores, it is like a mission and they are on it and they figure out 

how to move through it. But their issue is capital. It is always— 

because when you do a franchise, there is no $5,000 issue. It is a 

$50,000 to $250,000—— 

Mr. DAYWALT. Or more. 

Senator BEGICH [continuing]. Or more, depending on the franchise you get. 

Mr. DAYWALT. The International Franchise Association sponsors 

a group called VetFran. We are a part of that. 

Senator BEGICH. Yes. 

Mr. DAYWALT. And they have a big initiative going on this summer, and the VFW and some of the other VSOs are getting involved with it now. We think that is a good solution. 

Senator BEGICH. Yes. 

Mr. DAYWALT. But there—— 

Senator BEGICH. It is a piece. 

Mr. DAYWALT. It is a piece to the puzzle. 

Senator BEGICH. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Maybe we could do away with some of the 

bureaucracies around this issue and take that savings and put it 

into a fund that could—— 

Senator BEGICH. If we do—— 

Senator MCCASKILL [continuing]. For low-interest loans and—— 

Senator BEGICH. Combine the Department of Labor over with 

Vets. Take that savings. 

Senator MCCASKILL. And it is more than just the Department of 

Labor. 

Senator BEGICH. Oh, yes, it is. Yes. 

Senator MCCASKILL. There is something touching veterans in almost every agency of government, all for the right reason, because 

people wanted to help veterans. But what we have done is we have 

spawned, and what this hearing today has shown is that one piece 

of that we have exposed is this report that everybody is supposed 

to file. You guys are doing a great job. They do not even have your 

data. One of the data they had showed that somebody hired—you 

were not here, Senator, but the Committee got data from the Department of Labor that showed that one company hired 400 percent veterans more than they employed, than their total employees. 

So, clearly, we are—— 

Senator BEGICH. We want more of those companies. [Laughter.] 

Senator MCCASKILL. Well, yes. I mean, the data is like a joke. 

It is like a bad joke. 

Let me ask, the certification of this is something that was scandalous that the SBA had to deal with, where it was discovered that 

somebody was claiming to be a veteran, was getting the advantages 

of being a veteran, and was not a veteran. And even worse, I believe the example that brought this to light was they were claiming 

a service disabled veteran and they were not even a veteran. 

So, first, how can we certify veterans for advantages that we try 

to put into the law for them in a way that does not hinder the entrepreneurship of them as they move into the business world, and 

second, what about fronting? How many veterans are being hired 

to front for companies to get the benefits that are associated with 
25 

a veteran-owned business? In your experience, have you all seen 

that? And if so, do you think the government even dents the surface of getting at fronting? 

Mr. SULAYMAN. Well, ma’am, I can tell you that I have heard of 

fronting. We have not heard anything anecdotally and I have 

talked to folks at SBA and VA and DOL on those issues a couple 

times. 

The process that the VA goes through right now to certify veteran contractors, veteran businesses, is apparently statutorily mandated, and I understand that the intent was to eliminate some of 

those issues and abuses. But it has also made it very difficult for 

veteran-owned companies, whether they are small—whether they 

are service-disabled veteran-owned businesses or just veteranowned businesses, to get into the system. And you were talking 

about some of the bureaucracy. If you look at—there is vetbiz.gov, 

which is the VA’s site, and then there is fedbizops.gov, which is, 

I guess, the general site. There are multiple touch points and I 

think that makes it difficult for veterans to understand where they 

need to go and what they need to do. 

Anecdotally on that point, I have heard several veterans who 

have gone through the VA’s credentialing process and think, OK, 

now I can do business with the Federal Government, only to find 

out that they never had to go through that process to do business 

with the other arms of the Federal Government. 

And we certainly have heard, not necessarily from our membership but through the media and news, about instances like SBA 

and veterans either fronting or companies claiming to be SDBOs or 

veteran-owned businesses that are not. And SBA, in talking to the 

veterans outreach folks over there, they said that, historically, the 

rate is very low. 

So we think that the self-certification that is used by SBA is 

probably the way to go, but maybe add some small barriers, you 

have to produce a certificate of incorporation or you have to 

produce incorporation documents that show a veteran and the veteran’s DD–214, something that is a little bit more than self-certifying. What exactly that would be and how best that would be 

done, I could not say off the top of my head, but I think adding 

some small hurdles, while still allowing that small business to have 

a low barrier to entry into business with the Federal Government, 

is probably the way to go, and I think you would weed out most 

of that. 

Fronting, I think, really, at that point, I mean, just taking somebody to the woodshed, judicially speaking, is probably the way to 

end that. 

Senator MCCASKILL. I just wonder if we were even doing the 

oversight that is necessary to find the fronting. I mean, what this 

hearing has taught me is that we are not really paying attention. 

We are passing laws and then we are not paying attention, and 

that is why we are going to try to stay on this from a contracting 

standpoint and try to continue to pay attention to see if we cannot—I am just, dollar, bet you a dime, that it is going on out there, 

but it has not been uncovered in any way. 

Let me ask you, Mr. Kympton, I am fascinated by your organization. It is a win-win-win-win-win-win-win. I assume that all of this 
26 

is being done with charitable donations. Are there any government 

funds that are involved in your organization whatsoever? 

Mr. KYMPTON. Madam Chairman, there are no government funds 

at this time, no. 

Senator MCCASKILL. And what is the amount of stipend? I mean, 

if someone is on a fellowship with your organization, how many can 

you do a year, and how big is your organization’s budget, because 

we should—this is a great example of where the private sector 

does—the not-for-profit sector does a much better job than government in trying to assist not only the veterans, but the community 

writ large as it relates to the various organizations that you get fellowships in. How does this work? Are the various organizations 

providing the money or do you provide the money for the stipends 

during the fellowship? 

Mr. KYMPTON. Madam Chairman, our loose planning figure for 

a fellowship is $10,000 per fellowship, and what that funds is 6 

months of living stipends for the fellow so that he or she can work 

in a volunteer capacity within whatever organization, whether that 

is Habitat for Humanity or the Boys and Girls Club. And all of that 

money comes currently from private dollars, either corporate corporations or individuals who have seen the value of placing veterans within these nonprofit and community service organizations. 

So the living stipend that we pay them so that they can serve 

in a volunteer capacity represents roughly $7,000 of that $10,000, 

and it is pegged to the AmeriCorps living stipend. So we pegged 

it on something that is out there. It varies by location. It varies by 

the cost of living in that location. And, again, the intent is so that 

they can serve in a volunteer capacity, reconnecting to a mission, 

while they are also working toward a longer-term outcome for the 

contract, whether that is full-time employment either with the organization in which they are serving or one that they have targeted 

as a place that they would like to serve, or as a segue into continued education, or placing them in that ongoing role of service in 

their community. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Are you a United Way agency? 

Mr. KYMPTON. No, we are not. 

Senator MCCASKILL. So how many veterans are you serving on 

an annual basis in this capacity? 

Mr. KYMPTON. This year, we have targeted internally somewhere 

between 400 and 500 fellows. Most recently, we have organized 

these fellows into classes, cohorts, a very military concept. So we 

brought 114 fellows together in San Diego and started them as a 

class, and then after their 3-day orientation in person, a very kind 

of military flavored orientation—— 

Senator MCCASKILL. And how do you find these veterans, or how 

do they find you? 

Mr. KYMPTON. The most prolific source of recruitment right now 

for us are our former fellows or the volunteers who have served 

with us in communities and have seen what these fellows are capable of. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Have you done National Guard folks? 

Mr. KYMPTON. We have, yes. 

Senator MCCASKILL. It seems like, to me, this might be a good 

fit for the National Guard, because if you are talking about a 6- 
27 

month fellow, someone who has been deployed and has come back 

and is serving in the National Guard, I mean, maybe this model 

is something that we could try to promote, not through government 

but in the private sector, to actually focus on the National Guard 

population, because it seems to me that the flexibility that a notfor-profit represents in terms of not being as worried about future 

deployments upsetting the entire business model of a not-for-profit 

makes a lot more sense than maybe some of the other kinds of 

work that a Guard or Reservist could look for. 

Mr. KYMPTON. Madam Chairman, I can tell you both anecdotally 

and with data that the organizations in which our fellows serve 

deeply respect what they have brought to those organizations in 

terms of the skill sets—— 

Senator MCCASKILL. Right. 

Mr. KYMPTON [continuing]. And the unique experiences, and plus 

they are getting a volunteer who are bringing all of those skill sets 

and experiences to the table. So they keep coming back to us. We 

have placed more than one fellow at Habitat for Humanity and I 

believe that is due to the impact that these veterans are having on 

those organizations. 

Senator MCCASKILL. I bet they really give those organizations a 

shot in the arm in terms of morale and passion and focus. I think 

it is a terrific organization. 

I want to give Senator Carper a chance. Am I calling on you before you are ready? I have more questions if you need time. 

Senator CARPER. I am ready. Thank you. 

Senator MCCASKILL. OK. Senator Carper. 

Senator CARPER. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

To our witnesses, welcome. It is very nice to see Ted Daywalt 

again, and we welcome each of our witnesses. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Just put your sign up here so the people 

watching on C–SPAN know who you are. 

Senator CARPER. Thank you. Who is that guy, anyway, sitting 

next to Claire McCaskill? [Laughter.] 

Just, like, airdropped in from the Finance Committee. Here we 

are. 

But I just want to express my thanks. Some of you, and I do not 

know if you have talked about it here today, we have a situation 

going on where I am a former veteran, Navy guy like Ted, and the 

idea of being able to pursue a degree or post-secondary program 

while on active duty, being detached, deployed around the world, 

I mean, that is great. That could be—it is a great model, because 

the nature of the work you do in the military is you are gone a lot 

and it is just great. 

Unfortunately, and we have some folks whose distance learning 

colleges and universities, some of them do a great job in screening 

people, preparing people for these programs, making sure that they 

get the tutoring that they need and a lot of support and they are 

actually being prepared for jobs that will enable them to be productive citizens and pay off whatever their loans or debts might be 

that relate to their education. Not everybody is wearing a white 

hat, though, in that industry, as we know. 

As Mr. Daywalt knows, some of us have been working on legislation that says, let us go back and actually revisit the way the law 
28 

used to be. It used to be that 15 percent of the revenues of a proprietary school had to come from sources other than the Federal Government and 85 percent could come from the Federal Government. 

And then that was changed to 90 percent could come from the Federal Government but 10 percent had to come from other places. 

Now the rules are such that 10 percent that can come from other 

places can come from the G.I. Bill and from tuition assistance for 

folks that are on active duty. So we have literally got 100 percent 

of a college’s or institution’s income can come from the Federal 

Government, no skin in the game. Not a good situation. So we are 

trying to address this and work our way back to a real 90–10 rule 

where 10 percent of revenues have to come from someplace other 

than the Federal Government. 

I wanted to just ask, if I could, of Mr. Daywalt, and others if you 

want to jump in here, employers, we know, are not readily snapping up some of our veterans. Some, they are, but some, they are 

not. But even those that have completed their college degrees using 

G.I. Bill benefits. And I guess one of the questions is, why is that, 

and could there be some correlation here between the quality of the 

post-secondary training that folks are getting from the G.I. Bill or 

from tuition assistance and whether or not it is doing as much in 

terms of job preparation as we think it ought to be getting? Could 

you just speak to that, Ted? 

Mr. DAYWALT. Sure, sir. I will start by saying that if we did not 

have the National Guard problem, we would not be sitting here 

talking about veteran unemployment today because what we see, 

overall, the bulk of the veterans coming off active duty are getting 

employed, or they go back to school and then they get employed. 

But when they are totally separated, employers want to hire you. 

It is that National Guard issue where the real veteran unemployment issues lies. 

If we were talking about this problem 20 years ago, it was the 

over–50 veteran that could not get a job. And then DOL did, I 

think, what was one of the best programs it ever did, was put in 

these computer training programs in all the workforce centers, and 

within 6 months, the unemployment rate went from the 20s down 

to, like, 4 or 5 percent. 

Senator CARPER. Is that right? 

Mr. DAYWALT. Because they have the skills. They just did not 

know how to use the computer. In today’s environment, if you cannot use the computer, you are illiterate. But the real unemployment problem—the overall unemployment rate for all veterans 

right now is 7.7 percent, using the CPS numbers. It is that young 

veteran that is in the National Guard is where your real problem 

is at. 

But to your question, employers want to hire them. We have 

what, 5,000, 6,000 companies that use VetJobs on a regular basis. 

I can only think of one company I have ever dealt with that I 

would say was anti-military. 

Senator CARPER. Out of how many? 

Mr. DAYWALT. Over 5,000. 

Senator CARPER. Whoa. 

Mr. DAYWALT. Only one that I would call anti-military. Now— 

and the government contractors, I know there is going to be a big 
29 

stink about what The Weather Channel did with a major here recently, but for the most part, when there are USERRA problems 

in a company, it is because an individual made a stupid judgment, 

not—it is not corporate policy. But, overall, they do want to hire 

them, sir. 

You have to fix a systemic problem. If you fix the problem—go 

back to the change of policy on January 11, 2007—in 2006, the unemployment rate for your 18 to 24-year-olds was only about 10 percent, thereabouts. In 2008, it went up—I mean, at the end of 2007, 

it went to over—like, 23 percent. And the employers started saying, 

wait a minute. If you are going to take my employee away for up 

to 48 months out of any 60, I am not going to keep them, and that 

is why it doubled, and it doubled in the young ones because that 

is where most of the members of the National Guard are your 18- 

to 29-year-old veterans. 

You get rid of that systemic problem, you will not need a hearing 

like this today. 

Senator CARPER. OK. Any other comments on the issue? What I 

am looking for is the correlation between folks that are using our 

G.I. Bill and maybe tuition assistance and it is not preparing them 

for a real job. 

Mr. DAYWALT. Well, it does prepare them. The G.I. Bill is working. It gives people—they go in—Student Veterans of America and 

IAVA both have been very active helping people to get into the 

schools. When they come out of the schools on the other side, it prepares them. And a lot of great companies—ManTech is a good example, where they bring people in and they train them. They do 

not want to hire veterans, but they do not want them taken away. 

It is a simple problem. 

Senator CARPER. Yes. Ms. Sullivan? 

Ms. SULLIVAN. So in thinking about any stones left unturned, 

and I was glad that you brought up the G.I. Bill, so certainly 

ManTech is as networked as anybody. We have a successful program. Our numbers speak for themselves. It is part of our culture. 

It is a part of our company, how we operate. 

But there is one thing that I heard universally from people with 

inside of ManTech of, is there some stone unturned that really 

could make the difference, really move the needle in a significant 

way, and certainly I am not expert on this, but something for all 

of us to consider is, is there a way for veterans who are leveraging 

the G.I. Bill and trying to improve their skill set so they become 

more employable, something that we see is many times veterans 

who are leveraging that G.I. Bill, in the process of getting their 

education or more training, they lose their security clearance. And 

for an employer like ManTech, and most of our work is mission oriented so it serves the Department of Defense or serves the intelligence community, that ability to have a security clearance, an active one, is a very necessary component, and that part of the market is still a good market and it has competitive pay. 

So anything that could be done to help preserve that clearance, 

maybe, I do not know, put it in a deep freeze or a deferral mode 

versus just cancel it outright, I think could be a real needle mover 

for everyone. 

Senator CARPER. OK. Thanks. 
30 

Senator MCCASKILL. That is a great idea. 

Senator CARPER. Yes. Thank you very much. 

Any other comments on this issue? Yes, sir. 

Mr. SULAYMAN. Yes, sir. I know you are probably used to hearing 

Tom Tarantino talk about the G.I. Bill issue on IAVA’s behalf, but 

that is something that, definitely, we thank you for your leadership 

on with trying to change the 90–10 rule, and we have heard 

anecdotally, and we think we have plenty of examples and there 

are plenty of statistics to back up the idea that veterans, in trying 

to take advantage of the best career-ready training program that 

is out there, which is the G.I. Bill, especially the Post-9/11 G.I. Bill 

now that it can be used for licenses, certifications, not just for postsecondary education, but professional degrees and trades and everything else, basically—— 

Senator CARPER. It is even transferrable, I believe. 

Mr. SULAYMAN. And transferrable to—— 

Senator CARPER. Family members. 

Mr. SULAYMAN [continuing]. To children and spouses and, I 

mean, it is—— 

Senator CARPER. What a deal. 

Mr. SULAYMAN. It is an awesome program. But we—— 

Senator CARPER. I think when we came back from Southeast 

Asia at the end of the Vietnam War, I think we have about $200, 

$250 a month. 

Mr. SULAYMAN. Right, and there was a big differential between 

the post-World War II G.I. Bill and the G.I. Bill for the Vietnam 

era veterans. And this, the Post-9/11 G.I. Bill, really restored some 

parity more on the level of the post-World War II G.I. Bill and can 

be a game changer, and a lot of institutions sprang up, as they did 

after World War II, to take advantage of that and take advantage 

of some of the loopholes. And we have found from our membership 

that really has been an issue for them, with not completing degrees 

because they have exhausted the G.I. Bill on, quite frankly, really 

expensive degrees that were not going to prepare them for the jobs 

they were taking—criminal justice technology, for instance. 

I had a small business before I got deployed in construction. I 

was reviewing some of the online universities’ courses in construction management technology and I could not figure out how that 

would have applied to any of my subcontractors that I used or me 

as a project manager for a Fortune 500 construction company. It 

was really—and that is one of those things, where if you go to 

school and you get that degree and then you go out looking for the 

job or you try and startup a business as a small contractor and 

want to do business with Federal, State, or local governments in 

construction, those sorts of things, that is not going to impress anybody and help you out, and that is one of the things that we have 

found as we have looked at the issue. 

Senator CARPER. All right. Anybody else? 

Mr. DAYWALT. To Ms. Sullivan’s issue about security clearances, 

we hear that all the time, and there is a solution but it is going 

to take a change of paradigms over at DOD. In our country, unlike 

in Europe, the individual does not have the security clearance. The 

billet or the job has the security clearance. And then when you step 

out of that billet, you are no longer cleared. Now, at the TS/SCI 
31 

level, you have up to 6 months to get back into a job at the TS/ 

SCI level. Otherwise, you have to start all over again with a brand 

new special background investigation, very expensive, which is why 

we always make jokes that when one government contractor hires 

someone at the TS/SCI level, especially with polygraph, they have 

not filled a job, they have created a vacancy someplace else. 

When the person goes to school, when they get out to go back to 

work, they have to start all over again. So the solution is to create 

some billets that would be holding billets so that, like when I 

stepped out of the Navy, I had a TS/SCI, since I left Naval Intelligence, and if I wanted to go back to school, I would be put into 

a billet that leaves me at that security clearance, even though I am 

not working at it, now when I go to apply for a job, I already have 

my TS/SCI in place so that I can go into a job requiring a security 

clearance because I would be switching from that billet to whatever 

billet I go to work for in that company. That would be a solution. 

Now, a lot of your unions want to fight that because then they 

cannot do the background checks and everything else at DSS, but— 

and the same problems with the certifications of veterans. We have 

talked for years about if a guy drives a truck in the military, he 

could get a commercial driver’s license (CDL) or be able to get an 

emergency medical technician (EMT) license or whatever in the civilian world, and everybody says they are in favor of it until it gets 

on the floor of the House and the unions say, oh, no, no, no, no, 

no, no, no. We are not going to have them come out and compete 

with us. But that would be a simple way to fix part of that problem. 

Senator MCCASKILL. I think we passed that, did we not? 

Senator BEGICH. We did, and also, there is a program that—I am 

not sure 100 percent agree with you, because there is a program 

called Helmets to Hardhats that the unions actually organized, because they are in huge needs because the trades are averaging 52 

to 55 years old and they need replacements very quickly. And so 

I am not sure that old paradigm of one group against is there because the legislation we passed starts opening up the doors. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Right. 

Senator BEGICH. But I know the Helmets to Hardhats program, 

at least in my State, has been somewhat successful. That is why, 

when I walked out of here, it was with the labor union about what 

they are doing. 

Mr. DAYWALT. And the purpose of Helmets to Hardhats is to recruit people into the unions, which is great. I mean, unions are 

good. But let us not stand in the way of—if you are an electrician 

in the Army and you come out, you have been in the Army 25 

years, you are not going to go to Detroit and start as a journeyman 

electrician, but that is what the union wants you to do. You are 

going to go to Right to Work States where you can make a decent 

wage and not start at $8 or $9 an hour and work your way up 

through some union bureaucracy. That is brute reality. I come from 

Realsville. I am sorry. 

Senator CARPER. All right. Mr. Kympton, do you want to say 

something, and then I am done. Thank you. 

Mr. KYMPTON. Yes. Thank you, Senator. At The Mission Continues, we are using the vehicle of service as a reintegration strat-
32 

egy for veterans and are finding that it is leading to employment, 

it is leading to continued education. 

Currently, Madam Chairman, as you asked, we are not receiving 

any Federal funding to do that. I believe that the G.I. Bill represents an opportunity to expand what we allow veterans to focus 

that funding on and to choose the training program or the education program that they want to use as a vehicle to further employment. And that vehicle of service, funding a 6-months in service or funding a year in service, might just be possible within the 

G.I. Bill itself. 

Senator CARPER. OK. Thanks. 

All right. Thanks, Madam Chairman. Thanks very much. Thanks 

for holding this hearing and letting me slip by and ask a couple 

of questions. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Thank you. Senator—— 

Senator CARPER. Captain, nice to see you. 

Senator BEGICH. I do not. Actually, my last question was just on 

that, the VOW to Hire Heroes Act, which is the one we passed. I 

know one potential might be, and maybe it is here, maybe it is in 

the Veterans Committee, is kind of see where that is going, because the goal of it is to start making sure that if you are an electrician in the military, that you can make that transition into the 

private sector without having to retrain, recertify, going through 

the process. That legislation that was passed last year, or this last 

several months ago, was pretty significant. 

So it may be that it is a question we need to ask, I do not know 

if it is here or given to the Veterans Committee, kind of where that 

is at and how that is progressing, because that is one of the biggest 

complaints I hear, that we see people who are—if you are a truck 

driver in Afghanistan, you can be a truck driver anywhere is the 

way I look at it. But they need to get the legislation that is passed 

and what DOD is doing on that, so just a little side note there. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Let me finish up with this VETS–100 form. 

Do the two businesses represented here, do you feel like going 

through the requirement of filling out this form, has it in any way 

been beneficial to your company, even though clearly the Department of Labor is not paying any attention to it? 

Ms. SULLIVAN. We aggregate so much information because we 

are publicly traded, so any information that we collect or report, it 

comes up to management’s attention. I do not think we have ever 

looked at, to my knowledge, the VETS–100A as a management tool 

or resource. To that end, typically, because we are publicly traded, 

there are a lot of reports that we have to file relative to compliance, 

such as the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) reporting 

and other things. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Right. 

Ms. SULLIVAN. So I am not sure that we have ever stepped back, 

the compliance part, and really thought about it in that sense. 

Senator MCCASKILL. I am wondering, if we made these public, if 

it would help. I mean, if the data was publicly available, would you 

all not notice that they did not have your data? 

Ms. HARDY. Madam Chairman, we think providing public access 

to all vets data would encourage other companies to step up their 

practices and provide contractors with more information about the 
33 

government’s internal use of the data will lead to new and creative 

solutions. So we think transparency is the right approach. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Yes. I think one of the reasons that this 

data has been such a waste of time is because no one has been paying attention to the fact that they are not paying attention to it, 

whereas if it had to be publicly posted, perhaps the agency would 

feel—and they are not here today, but they will hear from us. We 

will make sure that they are aware that we have discovered that 

no one is paying attention. They are not checking this data. They 

are not validating the data. They are not sharing the data. It is 

just a check that someone is making in a box somewhere and taking energy from companies that are doing it. But, frankly, if you 

are not doing what you are supposed to be doing, I do not think 

anybody over there would ever know it, the way it is being operated now. 

So perhaps the way we do it is to before we try to do away with 

it, we try to make it public and see if it could come to some good 

and make it transparent before we actually try to say, let us— 

unwinding legislation that was put into place because people were 

trying to help a real problem is hard. I mean, speaking of SEC 

companies, look at Sarbanes-Oxley, right? I mean, it has become 

ingrained in our business world, and I am not sure that it accomplished what we wanted it to accomplish, other than providing full 

employment for a whole lot of lawyers and accountants. 

Ms. SULLIVAN. So I realize that some of the questions might 

come on reporting, and when I talk to folks inside of ManTech who 

are more closely related to compliance reporting and this report 

and everything, at the end of the day, from a very practical sense 

of being an employer and doing the kind of work that we do, it does 

not change our behavior any because we are so mission focused. 

The work that we have are for positions required by the government that are very mission focused. So we are going to do what we 

need to do anyway, and it is—so it is not—one way or the other, 

it is not going to change our behavior. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Yes. I think it is time that we step back 

from all of this and look and see what is a meaningful way for the 

government to impact this problem, because I do not think this is 

a meaningful way to impact it. There are meaningful ways we can. 

I think the new G.I. Bill is one way, if we can get our act together 

and ferret out these people that will have a special place where for 

taking advantage of veterans and their families to cabbage up their 

benefits without giving them one iota of educational benefit. 

But organizations like Mr. Kympton’s and Web sites like Mr. 

Daywalt’s, those are the things that are going to make the difference, and tackling this Guard problem, really focusing on the 

Guard problem, since that is really what is driving these unemployment numbers. But those that want to do the right thing because it supports who their company is will do it. Those that do not 

will not, and I am not sure turning in a report to the government 

is going to have one bit of impact on that. 

So we will go forward from here. If you would get us your information on Guard and Reserve hires, because I think that will be 

instructive to us. If there is anything that you all can add to the 

record about things that we should unwind that the Federal Gov-
34 

ernment is doing now, programs that should be consolidated, there 

is a big controversy about moving all of these programs into VA, 

and some of that is turf. Some of it may be legitimate. There are 

those even, Mr. Sulayman, that think we should move the SBA 

functions around veterans’ programs over to VA. I think the jury 

is out on that. But I want you all to feel comfortable continuing to 

give information to this Subcommittee as we track this. 

I wish I could tell you that government contractors are doing a 

good job of hiring veterans, but unfortunately, the government’s incompetence in this area has made that impossible for us to know. 

We have two good examples here today of companies that are doing 

the right thing, and by the way, it is a pleasure for me to compliment contractors. As you might know, most of the time when I 

sit in this chair, I am not doing that. Most of the time I am sitting 

in this chair, I am doing the opposite of that. So it is pleasant for 

me to compliment you on the work you are doing in this regard. 

Thank you all for being here today and we will continue to try 

to focus on this problem, and in a meaningful way that does not 

cause businesses too much of a headache and ultimately helps veterans get where they need to be, and that is gainfully employed in 

a career where their leadership has a chance to shine. 

Thank you all very much. The Subcommittee is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:46 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] 
(35) 

A P P E N D I X 

VETERANS EMPLOYMENT AND GOVERNMENT CONTRACTORS 

June 5, 2012 

Senator Claire McCaskill 

This hearing will now come to order. 

We are here today to talk about an alarming trend in the employment of our nation's 

veterans. 

Service in the active-duty military or the National Guard or Reserve has historically been 

an advantage in seeking employment. Recruiters for the military promised that service could 

lead to careers. Yet, after more than a decade of war, we are seeing something very different -

that the men and women who have served so honorably in Iraq and Afghanistan are facing 

unprecedented challenges in finding employment. 

Last week, the Department of Labor released its latest unemployment figures, which 

show that the unemployment rate in the United States is currently 8.2%. Those same figures 

show that veterans who have served on active duty since September 2001 have an unemployment 

rate of 12.7%. 

The unemployment rate for veterans who have served since September 2001 has also 

been increasing. In May 2011, the unemployment rate for these veterans was 12.1 %. In May 

2010, it was 10.6%. 

These numbers are a stark reminder that we are not doing enough to hel p our veterans, 

and that we must take new and urgent steps to improve our national efforts to make sure veterans 

have the tools and opportunities they need to find careers after they leave the military. 
36 

Part of the problem is that there are significant barriers that veterans face in seeking 

employment. Veterans are finding that all of their training and experience cannot simply be 

translated into similar civilian jobs. They may be finding employers who feel unsure about 

hiring veterans and members of the National Guard and Reserve because they do not understand 

what service requires. Breaking down these barriers is critical and requires innovative and 

comprehensive responses. 

Part of the problem is that the government isn't doing what it should. Simply telling a 

veteran to go down to his or her local employment office, or to search the job boards, as we have 

heard happens, is just not enough. Many different federal agencies, including the Defense 

Department, the V A, and the Department of Labor, have programs to work with veterans on 

employment issues, and some are more successful than others. 

Government contractors are well-situated to be major employers of veterans, and many 

are. Contractors are also required by law to take affirmative action to hire veterans. Since 2002, 

companies with government contracts over $100,000 are required to post job listings at 

nationwide employment offices, to report their veteran hiring and employment numbers to the 

Department of Labor through the VETS-] OOA form, and those with 50 or more employees are 

required to develop an affirmative action plan. 

The question is, how well are contractors doing at this? The answer is that we have no 

idea. 

Last year, I asked the Department of Labor for the information collected from 

government contractors for the past ten years. The Department was only able to provide data for 

2009 and 20] 0 because it only just became electronically available. The Subcommittee staff 

2 
37 

prepared a fact sheet summarizing this information and I ask unanimous consent that this fact 

sheet be included in the hearing record. 

What this fact sheet shows is that the information currently being collected and 

maintained by the Department of Labor is spotty and frequently inaccurate. We saw numbers 

that are obviously wrong, like seeing a company whose number of veteran hires is 400% larger 

than the total number of people working for the company. 

We also saw a significant amount of missing information. For example, the two 

companies represented here today did not appear in the data. Both had in fact submitted the data 

as required and were able to produce it upon the request of the Subcommittee. 

It seems that the reason for this discrepancy is with the Department of Labor. There are 

two offices within the Department of Labor responsible for collecting the data and enforcing 

compliance. That is the Office of the Assistant Secretary for Veterans Employment and 

Training (VETS) and the Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP). Yet, in 

conversations with the Department of Labor, the Subcommittee learned that VETS collects this 

information but never reviews it for any purpose and OFCCP has the authority to audit 

contractor compliance, but in fact conducts very few and never attempts any quality assurance 

reviews. 

This doesn't make any sense to me. So I called this hearing today to bring together two 

groups who are actnally taking active steps to promote contractor employment of veterans. 

We're here today to learn from some of the nation's leading veterans service organizations about 

the challenges facing recent veterans. We will also hear from two large and well-known 

businesses about the excellent work they are doing in recruiting and hiring veterans. 
38 

I look forward to a constructive discussion today. 

I also want to make one point clear from the outset: the status quo is just not acceptable. 

We cannot continue to betray the trust of our nation's veterans by not doing everything in our 

power to ensure that they have access to employment. We also cannot continue to invest scarce 

government resources and waste businesses' time demanding that they file reports which 

nobody pays any attention to and which don't seem to have any benefit to veterans employment. 

We need to avoid duplication in programs but also ensure that we are not taking a one-size-fitsall approach. 

This is a tall order, but when it comes to our veterans we have an obligation to do 

everything we can. 1 hope this hearing will be the first step. I also sincerely hope that the 

Department of Labor is listening, because I plan to follow up with them about the issues that we 

discuss here today. 

I thank the witnesses for being here and I look forward to their testimony. 

4 
39 

FOR RELEASE: June 5, 2012 

CONTACT: Emily Spain (202) 224-2441 or emilLspain(iljcarper.senate.gov 

U.S. SENATE COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONTRACTING OVERSIGHT HEARING 

HEARING: "Veterans Employment and Government Contractors" 

Statement of Senator Tom Carper 

As prepared/or delivery 

Today's hearing is great opportunity to hear from businesses and nonprofit leaders, as 

well as other employers who have made a special and important commitment to hiring 

veterans. As a veteran, 1 know the sacrifices our service members make by defending our 

nation, and we have a responsibility to ensure that our heroes have the proper resources 

and support to re-enter the workforce once they arrive home. 

In 2011, our nation had nearly 857,000 unemployed veterans seeking work. The jobless 

rate among post-9Ill veterans continues to be higher than the national average, and 

women veterans have one of the highest unemployment rates in the nation. That is 

unacceptable. That's why I was proud to pledge my support to the bipartisan Senate 

Veterans Jobs Caucus to help find solutions to lower the disturbingly-high veteran 

unemployment rate. Members of this caucus have made the commitment to hiring 

veterans, developing veterans' employment initiatives, and partnering with businesses 

and organizations to boost veteran job-training and hiring. 

But as T always like to say, 'you can't manage what you can't measure,' and in order to 

make sure the public and private sectors are doing all that they can to hire more of our 

service men and women, we must have the proper metrics in place to track hiring and 

employment. As we've learned over the past couple of years, there have been several 

notable inconsistencies in reports that government contractors are required to submit to 

the Labor Department's Office of Assistant Secretary for Veterans Employment and 

Training (VETS). It is critical that we examine these discrepancies to make sure that the 

Department of Labor has the proper tools in place to track veterans' reintegration back 

into the civilian workforce and ensure that we don't leave our heroes behind once they 

arrive home. 

Four years ago, Congress passed the Post 9111 GI Bill. Under this law, members of the 

armed forces who have served after Sept 10, 2001 are entitled to a very generous 

education benefit that essentially pays the costs of earning a college degree. While I've 

introduced legislation to close the 90/10 loophole in the Post 9111 G.I. Bill., the Military 
40 

Veterans Education Protection Act (S.2116), to me, the G.I. Bill continues to be a great 

motivation for veterans to encourage them to go back to school, to better themselves and 

to increase their attractiveness to employers with well-paying jobs. However, as we've 

seen today, there is still work to be done. 

I appreciate this opportunity today to hear from our witnesses and to evaluate the 

integrity of the reporting system used to quantify veteran hiring by contractors and 

veterans hiring as a whole. We owe our nation's veterans - including the more than 

78,000 veterans in Delaware more than just a debt of gratitude for their service to our 

country. We owe them our sincere commitment to providing them with new jobs. As 

Congress, the President and companies across America focus on creatingjobs for our 

nation's unemployed, we must strengthen our efforts to get veterans in Delaware and 

across the country back to work. 

### 
41 

Written Testimony 

Of 

Theodore (Ted) L. Daywalt 

CEO and President 

VetJobs 

Concerning 

Veterans Employment and Government 

Contractors 

Subcommittee on Contracting Oversight 

Senate Committee on Homeland Seclllity and Governmental Affairs 

10:00 A.M., Tuesday, June 5, 2012 

Dirksen Senate Office Building, Room SD-342 

Washington, DC 
42 

WRITTEN TESTIMONY 

Good moming, Chainnan, members and staff of the Subcommittee on Contracting 

Oversight for the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. 

I am very pleased to discuss with you how veterans are being employed by government 

contractors. 

VetJobs (www.vetjobs.com) has a unique vantage point on this discussion as by the 

nature of our business over the last thirteen years, VetJobs has dealt with veterans and 

their family members on a daily basis who are pursuing employment with govemment 

contractors. VetJobs assists all veterans, including Officer and Enlisted, Active Duty, 

Transitioning Military, Reservists, Veterans and Retirees, of the Air Force, Anny, Coast 

Guard, Marine Corps, Merchant Marine, National Guard, Navy, NOAA and Public 

Health Service, DOD civilians and their family members. 

Background 

When looking at veteran employment, it helps to understand that from an employer's 

perspective, there are three groups that comprise the post military service veteran 

employment and unemployment picture. 

The first group would be those who are transitioning off active duty with no further 

military obligation and who are most frequently referred to as veterans. This group is the 

most desirable veteran group from which employers prefer to hire since the candidate has 

no further military obligation but comes with many skills and attributes wanted by 

employers. 

The second group is comprised of the Federal Reservists of the Anny, Air Force, Coast 

Guard, Marine Corps and Navy. While these veterans have the same attributes at the 

transitioning military, they are subject to being called up on a regular basis. 

The third group is the National Guard. There are 54 National Guards who belong to the 

states and territories of the United States. 

While all three groups are veterans, it helps to make the distinctions when analyzing how 

the veterans are being employed or why employers prefer one type of veteran over 

another. 

Of the three groups, the National Guard has unique problems and is the least preferred 

source of veterans. Unlike active duty component members, when National Guard 

component members return from war they are demobilized and thus do not have a ready 

source of income unless they can find or have a civilian job. Given the bias against hiring 

National Guard members due to the call up policy and high operation tempo, National 

2 
43 

Guard members have problems maintaining a continuum of service with a civilian 

employer. Additionally, since the National Guard component member belongs to the state 

and reports the governor of a state or territory, the National Guard personnel are used for 

local emergencies such as flooding, hurricanes, earthquakes and security services within 

a state which again takes them away from their employer. 

This leads to financial difficulties and a host of family and personal problems for the 

National Guard participant. 

During a press conference on January 11, 2007, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates and 

General Peter Pace, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff announced that the policy on 

the use of the NG&R was changing. 

The previous Pentagon's policy for the National Guard & Reserve (NG&R) had been that 

members' cumulative time on active duty for the Iraq or Afghan wars could not exceed 24 

months. That cumulative limit was lifted; the remaining limit would be on the length of 

any single mobilization, which may not exceed 24 consecutive months. What this meant 

was a National Guard member could be mobilized for up to a 24-month tour in Iraq or 

Afghanistan, be demobilized and allowed to return to a civilian working life, only to be 

mobilized a second time for as much as an additional 24 months for a total of 48 months 

in any 60 month period. In practice, most members of the National Guard have been 

called up for only 12 to 18 months and then released back to the civilian work force. 

Many have then been recalled again. But due to the change in the call up policy, the 

annual unemployment rate of the 18 to 24 year old veterans doubled from 10.4% in 2006 

to 22.3% in 2007! 

From a business point of view, one must understand that companies have a fiduciary 

responsibility to their shareholders to run an efficient and profitable operation, but they 

cannot do so if they cannot count on the availability of their employees. While for a 

business person this is common sense, those making the decisions on how to utilize the 

NG&R seem to have missed what corporate America is saying about extended call-ups. 

Employers will not support having their employees gone for long periods of time. 

Consequently, the real veteran unemployment problem is in the NG&R. In 2007 the 

Department of Defense changed the NG&R from being a strategic reserve to an 

operational reserve. This made sense given the need for combat troops during the wars. 

But contrary to the Department of Defense (DOD) stated policy of calling up members of 

the NG&R only one year in six, the NG&R was used as a back door draft with multiple 

deployments. 

For example, the National Guard in Georgia has had six one year plus call ups at the 

brigade level in the last ten years. That makes it very difficult for a member of the 

National Guard to keep a job. Many studies have found that due to the constant call ups, 

employers shy away from hiring active members of the NG&R. 

Listening to the mainstream press and certain government executives, one would think 

the majority of veterans are unemployed, have PTSD or lack civilian work skills. For 

3 
44 

example, a senior representative from the D1artment of Labor speaking at the Society of 

Human Resource Management (SHRM) 6211 National Conference in Las Vegas in June 

2011 left the audience with the impression that most veterans have PTSD, do not have 

skills and are unemployable. Her speech was that veterans were broken. Fortunately, that 

is NOT the case. 

The real story is that most veterans are finding jobs when they leave the active military. 

At VetJobs we have noticed that those veterans who are totally separated from the 

military are for the most part finding employment. Not so with the NG&R. 

It is interesting to note that the unemployment rate for all veterans as a group has 

ALW A YS been lower than the national unemployment rate. While there will always be 

those select individuals who have problems finding work, as a whole, the veteran 

employment rate has historically done quite well when compared to their civilian and 

nonveteran counterparts, even during the current chronically bad economy. 

The June 1,2012 Current Population Survey (CPS) veteran unemployment report had 

total veteran unemployment at 7.8%, with a total of 880,000 veterans unemployed. This 

compares very favorably to the national CPS unemployment rate of 7.7%. One of the 

major sources of employment that has kept the overall veteran unemployment so low is 

government contractors. 

However, the CPS unemployment for 18 to 24 year old veterans jumped from 18.6% in 

April to 23.5% in May. The majority of the 53,000 unemployed 18 to 24 year old 

veterans are in the NG&R. 

Employers in America, and especially government contractors, see veterans as one of 

their most valuable sources oflabor so long as the veteran is not active in the National 

Guard. 

One final note for background: It is important to understand why employers make hires. 

Some Department of Labor (DOL) officials like to tout how many unemployed people 

there are for each job opening in the country and then bemoan the fact that employers are 

not hiring the unemployed. DOL and other governmental officials who make these 

statements are displaying a gross misunderstanding of how our economy works and why 

employers hire candidates. 

Employers do not hire someone just because they are standing and breathing or are 

unemployed. Employers hire candidates to fill a need within the company. Bottom line is 

employers look for "qualified" candidates to hire. If one were to ask how many qualified 

candidates exist for each job opening in the country you would have large negative 

numbers in disciplines like healthcare (nurses, general practitioners, morticians, etc.), 

maintenance, electricians, welders, software engineers, intemet security specialists, just 

to name a few. 

4 
45 

Government contractors are major employers. Many have discussed with me the problem 

of finding qualified candidates to hire. And for that reason government contractors like to 

hire veterans as generally they have excellent skill levels. 

Why Employers Hire Veterans 

Leading reasons why employers hire veterans include the following: 

Proven Leadership: Veterans are put into leadership roles at early stages oftheir time 

in the service. The real world, front line and often battle proven leadership developed in 

the military is well beyond that of a similar person in a civilian job. 

Mission Focused: Every member of the military is used to working in an environment 

that is focused on the mission at hand. They are not clock watchers, but rather are 

focused on what it takes to be successful in their mission. 

Team Players: From the early stages of initial training, all members of the military are 

used to working in a team environment. Some teams are small, others very large, but all 

members of the team know that their individual efforts are to support the team in 

reaching the larger objective. 

Work Ethic: The work ethic of veterans is unparalleled due to the need to depend on 

each other for their lives. Every military person knows that their life and success 

depends on their teammates. As a result, the work ethic of veterans is vastly stronger 

than the normal civilian work ethic. People who have served in the military are used to 

working long hours in non-traditional environments. 

Skill Training and Education: Today's veterans have been trained in nearly every 

occupation imaginable, with a strong emphasis on technology. Most of the training 

schools of the military that teach technology, leadership, recruiting (sales), management 

and operations surpass those available to civilians. 

Immediate Contributor: Veterans, through their proven experiences in the military, 

become valuable contributors from day one of employment. Veterans are used to being 

challenged, encouraged to demonstrate initiative, think quickly on their feet and give 

recognition for performance to those who earn it. 

Bad{ground Checks and Security Clearances: Over 90% of those in the military 

have had extensive background checks for various levels of security clearances. When a 

company hires a veteran, the veteran is less likely to become a risk to the company or its 

operation. If a company requires security clearances, a veteran can save the company a 

great deal of money on special background investigations since the veteran's clearance 

can be transferred in status. 

5 
46 

Government Paid Relocation Assistance: When leaving active duty, veterans are 

given government paid relocation. The amount of this assistance varies with each 

individual, but it can save companies money that can be used for other purposes. 

Government Contractors Proactively Hire Veterans 

For all the reasons discussed above, I have found that government contractors are 

proactively hiring veterans. 

Government contractors use many public and private resources to reach the veteran 

community. Frequently used resources and recruiting channels include: 

-Military related job boards - private industry and government sites 

-Military related newspapers and magazines 

-Military related career fairs 

-Networking 

-Social networking sites 

-Veteran Service Organizations (VFW, Legion, MOAA, ROA, etc.) 

-Radio and TV advertising 

-Veteran representatives at state and federal DOL workforce center 

-Private and government sponsored career mentoring organizations 

-University career placement centers 

Representative companies who have outstanding military hiring programs and would be 

models for others to follow in the hiring of veterans include General Electric, CACI, 

Man Tech International, BNSF Railway, Lockheed, Boeing, Rockwell International, 

Schneider Logistics, Home Depot, Loews, Combined Insurance, Prudential, etc. The 

listing of government contractors who do excellent jobs in pro-actively seeking to hire 

veterans could go on for many pages. 

So the Committee can better understand what an outstanding military recruiting program 

by a government contractor looks like, I would like to highlight the military and veteran 

recruiting program and efforts of one of our many customers, BNSF Railway. BNSF is a 

major employer of not only veterans and transitioning military, but has also been an 

outstanding employer of the NG&R! 

BNSF has a strong and nationally recognized military recruiting program. BNSF 

currently employs more than 6,000 veterans. In 2011, BNSF hired 5,500 new employees 

of which 1,339 were veterans which was 24% of all hires. Of the nearly 2,000 new hires 

made in 2012, 481 have been veterans, which again is 24%! 

To accomplish this feat, BNSF has made a serious commitment to hiring veterans. For 

example, 

6 
47 

BNSF has an exclusive military staffing program lead by a dedicated full-time 

employee who is retired military. Government contractors who use dedicated military 

recruiters always do better when it comes to hiring military. Interested veterans can 

learn more about BNSF and apply online at or 

contact John Wesley III, US Army, lSG (Retired), Manager Military Staffing, at 

The program originated in 2005 as BNSF met and 

exceeded the challenge of creating an actionable program that took advantage of 

making veterans a valuable part of the BNSF workforce. 

BNSF makes extensive use of the recruiting the channels discussed above. This 

includes using the DOD transition centers, DOL workforce veteran representatives, 

heavily advertise on military job boards like VetJobs, and attend career fairs. On 

average, BNSF attends fifty (50) veteran focused job fairs and recruiting events 

annually. 

BNSF offers enhanced and extended benefits for those employees who participate in 

the NG&R and are called to active duty, including make-whole pay and companyprovided sustained health care benefits for the duration of the orders which includes 

coverage for family members. 

BNSF offers fifteen (15) days of make-whole pay, without the use of any vacation, 

for employees in the NG&R for military training (e.g. annual training, etc.). 

Other initiatives that BNSF has implemented include internal veteran programs such as: 

Blue Star Gold Star Banner program - sending the appropriate blue or gold star 

flag of recognition to every family of each of deployed employee service member 

who has answered the call to service in support of the Global War on Terrorism. 

Additionally, the appropriate flag is sent to the veteran employee's place of work and 

displayed for co-workers to remember until the employee returns. 

Annual Veteran's Day recognition program - BNSF chairman and chief executive 

officer Matt Rose sends personal letters of appreciation to every veteran employee 

(1 st year included the new BNSF veteran lapel pin). 

• Patriot Award Program - is a way for BNSF veteran employees who are called to 

serve in active military duty to recognize and thank their supervisors for their support 

BNSF is truly a role model for civilian employers on how to hire and keep veterans in 

their workforce. 

Obstacles to Government Contractors Hiring Veterans 

At VetJobs we have found that government contractors of all sizes maintain active 

military hiring programs and want to hire veterans. While they prefer to hire veterans 

7 
48 

who are totally separated from their military service, government contractors have proven 

to be leading employers of members of the NG&R. 

But there are actions taken by the federal government which have unintended 

consequences and actually discourage the hiring of veterans. The following information 

is based on my conversations with many government contractors who think things need 

to change so they can be more effective in hiring veterans. 

VETSIOO 

A hindrance to hiring is the reporting requirements of the VETS 100 and VETSlOOA The 

VETS 1 00 report is required by DOL of all government contractors. It is a very time 

consuming report and costs private industry many millions of dollars to collect the data. 

Yet only 5% or less of government contractors are audited for the VETS 1 00 report. 

Another problem with the VETS 100 report is many members of the NG&R do not want 

to disclose they are active in the NG&R over concerns of keeping their jobs. 

From a business perspective, for a report to be effective it has to be relevant, timely and 

actionable. The VETS 100 report does not meet any of these three criteria. 

Additionally, there really is no serious consequence to a government contractor. From an 

employer's perspective, the VETS 100 report is an expensive paperwork exercise draining 

assets that could be better utilized within the company. 

As a businessman, I have to ask why the government is requiring a universe of all 

government contractors to collect data when the government is only going to audit 5% or 

less of those collecting the data. 

Is the purpose of the VETSlOO report is a paperwork exercise to justify government 

budgets and bureaucratic jobs at DOL? 

If the government wants to know how many veterans have been hired at a company, that 

information could be asked during an OFCCP desk audit Or DOL could request that the 

local veteran employment representative (L VER) sign off on the VETS 100 report so they 

know what is happening in a more timely fashion. This might facilitate better exchange 

of information between government contractors and DOL 

But the real bottom line is the fact that the VETS 100 report does not cause more veterans 

to be hired by government contractors. Thus, for all the expense that the report causes 

employers, I could easily support eliminating the VETS 100 report and DOL could find 

other meaningful employment for the bureaucrats that collect the information. 

8 
49 

Certifications and Licenses 

Personnel who serve in the military are trained in over 200 occupations that provide skills 

wanted by civilian employers and especially government contractors. Most of the skills 

learned by people serving in the military have direct civilian application but to obtain a 

civilian job the candidate frequently needs civilian certification or a license. 

rfDOD education and training commands were to add civilian certification to their 

training programs, it would be easier for a transitioning veteran to find civilian 

employment. This is particularly true with government contractors who frequently need 

candidates with specific certifications. 

This assumes that the unions will no longer fight the awarding of civilian certifications to 

military personnel and assumes active duty commanders will understand that providing 

such certifications will not be a retention problem. In fact, it could help retention. 

I would recommend that military education commands and institutions provide training 

that meets civilian certification and licensing requirements. 

Office of Federal Contract Compliance Program (OFCCP) 

There needs to be a serious review ofOFCCP audit practices. OFCCP says it will 

concentrate on veteran and disabled issues this year. From a human resource perspective, 

OFCCP audits are a paperwork nightmare. But I question whether their approach is 

causing government contractors to hire more veterans. Many government contractors feel 

the tactics being used by OFCCP is a "gotcha" approach designed to punish employers 

and increase revenues to DOL. 

For example, OFCCP in its desk audits are currently asking for screen shots of jobs 

posted to internet job boards over a previous 24 month period. At VetJobs we keep these 

in order to support our customers. 

In a conversation with an OFCCP manager, r brought up the issue of the requirement for 

screen shots and asked where on the DOL website or in the OFCCP Frequently Asked 

Questions is the requirement for employers to keep and produce the screen shots of 

posted jobs because it does not exist. The answer r received was "We can ask for 

anything we want when conducting an audit"! When an employer cannot produce 

documents for which there is no written or legal requirement to produce, they are then 

assessed, frequently substantial amounts of money. 

Another example is the way audits are conducted. I have heard from many government 

contractors that they had a desk audit, did well, and a few weeks later auditors come back 

to audit again, i.e., the auditors have been sent back by their managers to keep digging 

until they can find things on which to assess fines. That is no longer an audit. It is a 

revenue quota. 

9 
50 

There are many examples like these two which raise questions for me as to whether the 

audits are facilitating employers to hire more veterans. 

OFCCP has as its goal to ensure companies do not discriminate. We all agree that 

government contractors should not discriminate. But employers need to realistically 

know what will be required of them during an audit. Leaving the requirements of an audit 

to the on scene discretion of the auditor puts employers in a very precarious position. 

In order to solve a problem one must effectively analyze, define and identify the problem 

and its causes. If one does not understand the sources of the problem, well-meaning 

solutions that are chosen will not work, or worse, will not address the problem at all. 

I would recommend the committee consider asking the Government Accounting Office to 

conduct a study to ascertain if the current OFCCP audit procedures are effective and 

actually getting more jobs for veterans. 

Transition Assistance Program (TAP) 

Finally, many veterans transitioning off active duty need more assistance than is being 

provided. This is especially true of the NG&R component members which is where the 

real veteran unemployment problem exists. Iftransitioning military were to be better 

educated to everything one must do to find ajob and understand the opportunities that 

exist with government contractors, more would be employed by government contractors. 

This would help reduce the high unemployment rate in the younger veterans. 

As has been reported widely, the military Transition Assistance Program (called TAP in 

the Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard and Marine Corps - the Army calls their program 

ACAP (Anny Career Alumni Program» needs to be seriously reworked. It has been 

nearly 20 years since the program curriculum has been updated and many of the TAP 

offices are understaffed. There has been much talk about reworking the TAP program, 

but no action to date. The bottom line is transitioning military are not getting the 

assistance they need to find civilian job upon leaving the military. 

Please understand there are excellent TAP offices. Examples would be the TAP program 

at Norfolk Naval Base and the ACAP program run by Eddie Perez at Fort Benning, 

Columbus, GA. Unfortunately, they are exceptions, not the rule. 

With input from recruiting professionals and the successful TAP programs, I would 

recommend that the reorganization and effectiveness of TAP be accelerated. 

Veteran Employment Outlook 

The overall employment outlook for veterans transitioning off active duty is positive. 

Over 80% of military occupations have a direct or very close civilian equivalent. Any 

person who has spent a year or more on active duty has marketable skills wanted by 

10 
51 

civilian employers. The military has engineers, nurses, lawyers, accountants, store 

managers, telecommunications technicians, truck drivers, food service managers and 

more. And all military members possess, to some degree, intangible skills such as 

leadership, process improvement, problem identification, trouble shooting, 

managerial/supervisory administration, and project management. 

But if the veteran is active in the NG&R, they face great difficulties. Fortunately many 

government contractors have stepped up to the plate to assist the members of the NG&R 

with employment. 

It is very encouraging to see how government contractors are employing wounded 

warriors. Companies like Walmart, Home Depot, BNSF Railway, American Airlines and 

many others are making special accommodations to hire our wounded warriors. It is a 

positive change from the 1970s when veterans would apply to ajob and not mention 

having served in Vietnam as their Vietnam service frequently would work against them. 

The Vietnam Veterans of America, Veterans of Foreign Wars and American Legion have 

been leaders in changing the attitude of employers in this regard. 

Thank you for your time. I trust the information presented will be of assistance in your 

deli berati ons. 

This concludes my presentation. 

Theodore (Ted) L. Daywalt 

CEO and President 

VetJobs.com, Inc. 

P. O. Box 71445 

Marietta, GA 30007-1445 

770-993-5117 (0) 

877-838-5627 (877-Vet-Jobs) 

11 
52 

U.S. SENATE COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY 

& GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONTRACTING OVERSIGHT 

JUNES.lOll 

STATEMENT OF SPENCER KYMPTON 

CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER 

TIlE MISSION CONTINUES 

Madam Chainnan, Ranking Member Portman, and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you 

for inviting me to participate in these important hearings. Based on my experience as a veteran, 

and my service at The Mission Continues, I believe that this subcommittee is doing work that is 

critical to the success of this generation of veterans. 

Today, I am testifying as a West Point graduate and fonner Anny helicopter pilot, and as a 

veteran who sought meaningful employment after military service. I now serve as the Chief 

Operating Officer of The Mission Continues, a national nonprofit organization, where we have 

worked with over 350 veterans to pursue successful transitions to civilian life. 

Based on these experiences with veteran recruitment and retention, I believe that there are 

several key lessons that federal contractors and corporate leaders can apply to successfully tap 

into the great skills oftoday's veteran. Applying these lessons will strengthen their organization 

while building successful transitions for the veteran. 

At The Mission Continues, we create successful transitions by engaging veterans in six-month 

community-service fellowships. Today, a Cavalry Scout mentors hundreds of children at the 

Boys and Girls Club; a Marine Corps sergeant helps his community prepare for disasters and 

emergencies through The American Red Cross; an Anny Communications Specialist teaches 

English as a second language to immigrant children and their parents. We introduced these 

Fellows to a meaningful mission. We welcomed them onto a distinct team, and asked them to 

don a new unifonn of service. As they serve, we provide them with living stipends and mentors. 

1 
53 

u.s. SENATE COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY 

& GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONTRACTING OVERSIGHT 

JUNES. 2012 

At the end of their fellowship, we will challenge them to mark their lifetime commitment to 

service by executing a service project in their community. After their fellowship, they move on 

to realize their post-fellowship goal of full-time employment, continued education, or an 

ongoing role of service in their communities. 

Our experiences with these Fellows, and with more than a thousand veterans who applied for 

fellowships, have shown us this: when you connect veterans to a meaningful mission, ask them 

to join a distinct team, and challenge them with a set of goals that lead to definable impact, they 

excel. Just as they excelled in their military service, they again excel in their citizen service. 

A primary factor in our selection and placement of Fellows is the passion they have for service. 

The Cavalry Scout serves at The Boys and Girls Club because he is fulfilled by mentoring 

youth. The Marine readies his community because he is passionate about emergency response. 

Reconnecting to a meaningful mission has been critical to their success. 

Our Fellows are further enriched by the renewed connection to a team. As you know, all 

enlistees and officers take an oath to support and defend the constitution upon entering the 

military. They then join their military units, each of which possesses a distinct identity and 

strong traditions. Recently, we gathered more than 100 veterans and awarded them Mission 

Continues fellowships. We asked these Fellows to take a similar oath and join this distinct new 

team. In front of thousands of fans at a Major League Baseball game, wearing sharp royal blue 

Mission Continues polo shirts, standing at attention alongside their new comrades in arms, these 

Fellows proudly recited a new oath of service. They walked off the field motivated and eager to 

serve. 

While they serve, we also require that our Fellows set and achieve goals; they each identify at 

least three goals for the impact they will have in their community. They identify a post2 
54 

u.s. SENATE COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY 

& GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONTRACTING OVERSIGHT 

JUNE 5,2012 

fellowship goal that will impact their own lives for years. We hold them accountable to those 

goals, and we partner in their success. 

Roxley Pratt grew up in war-tom Sierra Leone. As a child, he marveled at the sentries guarding 

the U.S. Embassy there. He decided then that he wanted to be a Marine. Years later, after 

escaping a siege of his city and immigrating to America, he enlisted in the United States Marine 

Corps. He honorably served for six years, and his service included deployments to Iraq. Upon 

his return, people thanked him for his service, but when it came to landing a job, he struggled to 

get interviews. Unemployed and unable to translate his military skills at job fairs in Southern 

California, Roxley found The Mission Continues. Driven by his own experiences with 

homelessness and his personal responsibility to assist those less fortunate, he earned a 

fellowship with Habitat for Humanity. He has reconnected to a mission that is important to him. 

He is working on distinct teams - his team at The Mission Continues, his team at Habitat for 

Humanity, and the teams of volunteers he organizes. He is translating military skills to civilian 

skills. And he is excelling. 

Roxley's story can be the story of this generation of veterans; it is a story of service in war and 

continued service at home. 

Madam Chairman, we are grateful for your support and the support of this Subcommittee. 

would welcome any questions that you or other Members may have. Thank you. 

3 
55 

Testimony of Ramsey Sulayman 

Legislative Associate, Iraq and Afghauistan Veterans of America 

Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee 

Contracting Subcommittee 

June 5, 2012 

Madam Chairwoman, Ranking Member, distinguished members of the subcommittee, on behalf 

of more than 200,000 members and supporters ofIraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America 

(lAVA), 1 thank you for the opportunity to share the views of our members on this important 

issue. 

My name is Ramsey Sulayman and I am a Legislative Associate with lAVA. I am a veteran of 

Iraq where I was an infantry platoon commander and company executive officer. I have spent 14 

years in the Marine Corps trying to execute the Marine Corps' two missions: winning battles and 

making Marines. As an lAVA staff member, I don't make soldiers, sailors, airmen or Marines 

but I do try to make their lives better. The views expressed in this testimony reflect the views and 

analysis of lAVA and not the United States Marine Corps. Thank you for your attention to the 

pressing issues facing our nation's veterans. 

Unemployment is clearly one of the most pressing issues facing veterans today. While recent 

unemployment statistics may indicate that the employment outlook is potentially getting better 

for veterans as a whole, the situation is still worse than it ought to be. For example, the 

unemployment rate for veterans 18 - 24 years old is nearly double the rate for 18 - 24 year old 

civilians. Many people have suggested that empowering veteran entrepreneurs and incentivizing 

the growth of veteran-owned small businesses by setting aside a percentage of government 

contracts will help reduce the level of veteran unemployment. Many people question whether 

that goal is currently being met and if it is not, then why? IA VA agrees that helping veterans 

who own businesses is the right thing to do: it is a small helping hand in return for the sacrifices 

of service and will help make our nation and our economy stronger. However, there are several 

issues that need to be addressed. 

lAVA believes that the logical place to begin helping veterans break into federal contracting is 

through the Transition Assistance Program (TAP). Because TAP is now mandatory for all 

service members, it is a convenient touch-point that will allow for the dissemination of 

information on federal contracting processes and opportunities, as well as the most basic level of 

information and training, to the widest possible audience. The Small Business Administration is 

currently developing an entrepreneurship track for TAP and we believe that this will be a key 

component in setting veterans up for success. We also believe that allowing veterans and their 

spouses to re-take TAP after separating as proposed in S. 2246, the TAP Modernization Act of 

Page 1 of 3 
56 

Testimony of Ramsey Sulayman 

HSGAC Subcommittee on Contracting 

June 5,2012 

Page 2 of 3 

2012, is a necessary step. Allowing a veteran or spouse who has completed one track of TAP, 

education for example, to retake a different TAP track based on new circumstances, in this case 

the entrepreneurship track, is a small investment on the frontend. It will pay dividends in greater 

veteran success and lesser use of safety net programs on the backend. 

Another necessary step is understanding the landscape of veteran-owned small businesses and 

service-disabled veteran-owned small businesses. Acquiring meaningful, complete and easily 

accessible data is critical to this endeavor. Unfortunately, the VETS 100 and VETS 100A fonns, 

the main source of data on veteran prime contractors and sub-contractors, are not particularly 

useful. The infonnation contained in VETS 100 and 100A is meaningful data, but only as a 

snapshot of those actually employed as prime contractors or subcontractors. Even then, the 

infonnation is more akin to head count and it misses some crucial information. Because VETS 

100 and 100A allows reporting of veterans employed at any point during the filing year, there is 

no guarantee that the level of veteran employment by a federal contractor or subcontractor is 

consistently reliable or accurate. In addition, without the inclusion of other relevant infonnation, 

the value of the VETS 100 and 100A fomls is limited. A good example would be the NOlth 

American Industry Classification System (NAICS) that would allow tracking the number of 

veteran contractors by industry type or the era from which the veteran hails. These pieces of 

infonnation would help elucidate in which industries veteran contractors are most heavily and 

lightly concentrated and whether that workforce is declining due to age. 

The infonnation contained in the VETS 100 and 100A fonns is also not easily accessible. Few 

groups will have the stomach or resources to go through the difticult process ofliberating that 

data. This is an important issue because in order to detennine if there is difticulty in meeting the 

goal of no less than 3 percent participation in federal prime contracts and subcontracts by 

service-disabled veteran-owned (SOVa) small businesses that was established by the Veterans 

Entrepreneurship and Small Business Development Act of 1999, we must first have reliable data 

that will allow us to determine: 1) how many SDVa businesses exist; 2) how many SDva 

businesses have (or are being awarded) govemment contracts; 3) the kinds of industry in which 

SDva businesses operate. Lacking clear and reliable figures makes determining whether there is 

a problem and its extent nearly impossible. 

lAVA also believes that the certification process for a sova business or veteran-owned small 

business should be easy and consistent. While we appreciate and support efforts at curbing fraud 

and abuse by definitively ascertaining the veracity behind claims SDVa or veteran-owned small 

business status, we also recognize and appreciate the fact that the certification process should be 

as painless as possible so as not to discourage small businesses with limited resources. We are 

concerned that the statutorily mandated certifkation process cun'ently used for sova and 

veteran-owned small businesses doing business with the Veterans Administration (VA) is too 

cumbersome. Extending this system to all federal agencies would be unnecessarily burdensome 
57 

Testimony of Ramsey Sulayman 

HSGAC Subcommittee on Contracting 

June 5,2012 

Page 3 of 3 

on both the government and small businesses. The Small Business Administration (SBA) has 

relied on self-certification as a SDVO or veteran-owned small business and has experienced little 

fraud. IA V A believes that maintaining this system with some enhanced documentation 

requirements will help ease the burden on SDVO and veteran-owned small businesses while 

helping to guarantee that the consideration earned through service to country is not abused. 

During research for this testimony, IA V A staff has pursued many different leads on making the 

system more efficient and to increase the number of veteran contractors. Many of the 

recommendations we heard often already exist in some form. For example, the idea of a 

searchable, centralized database of veteran contractors that could be used by federal contracting 

officers and federal contractors already exists as the Central Contractor Registration (CCR) and 

Dynamic Small Business Search (DSBS). The use of those resources to find veteran contractors, 

even by federal contracting officers, appears to be less than optimal because, we were told, many 

choose "the path of least resistance." Therefore, part of the assessment of the problem will 

require a review of existing systems and processes. Some of these reviews are already underway 

and ideally will result in clarifying best and worst practices so we don't waste our veterans time 

and money and tax-payer dollars. 

lAVA strongly welcomes the efforts of Congress, the executive branch, and private industry in 

increasing the number of veteran contractors whether those contractors are fulfilling government 

or private contracts. As part of our commitment, lAVA is willing to spread the word about 

available opportunities or training to our membership and the greater population through our 

extensive social media outreach, We are also able and willing to partner with either government 

agencies or private corporations in targeted efforts to help increase veteran employment through 

our programs, such as our Smart Job Fairs held in partnership with the U.S, Chamber of 

Commerce. We believe that employment is the number one issue facing veterans of Iraq and 

Afghanistan and will only become more important as the war in Afghanistan ends. IA V A 

appreciates the efforts of this subcommittee and the other witnesses and we look forward to 

helping in any way that we can. Thank you, 
58 

Pamela Hardy, Senior Associate in People Services, 

Booz Allen Hamilton 

beforetbe 

Ad Hoc Subcommittee on Contracting Oversight of tbe 

Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs 

United States Senate 

Hearing on 

Veterans Employment and Government Contractors 

June S, 2012 

Madame Chairwoman, Ranking Member Portman, and distinguished members of the 

subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to testilY here today. 

My name is Pamela Hardy and I am a Senior Manager in the Diversity & Inclusion team 

in People Services at Booz Allen Hamilton. I am responsible for all aspects of our 

organizational efforts to build, maintain, and assure a diverse and inclusive culture. Part of my 

job is to make Booz Allen an employer of choice for veterans. 

Booz Allen Hamilton is based in McLean, Virginia, with over 80 offices throughout the 

United States. For nearly a century, Booz Allen has been at the cutting edge of helping U.S. 

government agencies, defense components, and other business and institutional clients 

accomplish critical missions. I Our firm, now public, employs about 25,000 people and is one of 

the federal government's most trusted contractors. We partner with government clients across a 

broad range of government agencies to solve their most important and complex problems; our 

work in analytics, engineering, operations, strategy and organization, and technology helps our 

customers better execute the most challenging government missions around the world. 

Booz Allen is known as one of the leading federal employers of retired and former 

military service members. Forbes recently reported that Booz Allen ranked as the top employer 

for veterans, citing the approximately one-third of our employees who have self-identified as 

having military backgrounds.2 We have also been recognized by members of the National Guard 

and the Reserve, as well as by the Disabled American Veterans (DAV) organization, for 

outstanding practices and policies that assist those groups. And we are honored to have been 

named in the top ten of the G.1. Jobs list of Top 100 Military Friendly Employers for six years 

running. We are proud to be consistently ranked among the country's top employers for veterans, 

I Missions that Matter, Fiscal Year 20 II Annual Report, Booz Allen Hamilton (20 II), available at 

http://www.boozallen.com/investorslannual-report!annual-report-ry20 I I !missions-that-matter. 

2 Jacquelyn Smith, The Top Employers/or Veterans, FORBES (Apr. 23, 2012), available at 

http://www.forbes.com ... sites/jacguelynsmith/20 12/04i23/the-top-ernplovers-for-veteransi', 

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and I am honored to have the opportunity today to speak about our demonstrated commitment to 

the men and women who have made personal sacrifices to serve our country.3 

Booz Allen's commitment to military employment 

Booz Allen Hamilton is a leader in the employment of so many former military service 

members because our commitment to veterans and wounded warriors is part of our corporate 

culture, extending from our senior leadership throughout the firm. We're successful, we believe, 

because we execute on this commitment in a highly integrated way-involving multiple aspects 

of our business and in every layer of our company-much like we integrate our various 

capabilities for our government and commercial clients. 

We approach military hiring, as one might expect, through a variety of creative 

recruitment programs. But we also leverage the wide range of expertise we develop and provide 

to military clients-such as knowledge of veterans health services-to help us attract and 

support new hires; we support veteran-owned businesses through our contracting organization; 

we use members of our own workforce to mentor and support other veteran employees through 

employee resource groups, mentoring circles, education and leadership programs, and other 

means; we focus on programs to support military families and spouses; and importantly, veterans 

and wounded warriors are a major focus and beneficiary of the firm's philanthropic efforts 

through our Community Partnerships group. And all of these efforts are coordinated by an 

assigned committee of senior leaders to ensure maximum effectiveness. 

It is the integration of effort throughout the firm, we believe, that makes the difference 

for hiring and retaining veterans. We are committed to employing and offering an inclusive 

culture for veterans because we respect and admire their service to our country, but also because 

former members of the military have strong training and bring a unique knowledge and 

experience base to their work. Few can know the challenges that face our U.S. military and other 

government clients better than those who have served our country in uniform. 

Recruitment and retention: Booz Allen's experience and best practices 

Much of our success in employing veterans is due to our core efforts to recruit military 

talent and retain them on our team. In fact, Booz Allen-as part of our client work-assists 

federal agencies with programs to help military personnel, wounded warriors, and their families 

transition from active duty into the civilian workforce, so we have a strong understanding of the 

military-to-civilian career transition process. 

Booz Allen invests significant time and resources into improving our military recruitment 

efforts. Because Booz Allen's core work is conducted in such close collaboration with our 

government clients, including defense and intelligence agencies, we provide a unique civilian 

workplace environment that is attractive to those leaving military service. But over the years we 

have come to believe that our success in this area can be best attributed to a dynamic set of 

strategies for hiring and retaining former military personnel. 

3 Supporting Veterans and Wounded Warrior Reintegration, 800z Allen Hamilton, available at http://www.boozallen.comlconsultingiview-our-work/48383297!supporting-veterans-and-wounded-warriorreintegratiQ.!.!. 

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Recruitment. In its outreach efforts, Booz Allen's military recruiting team annually 

participates in veterans-focused career fairs across the country. Booz Allen also cooperates with 

the Labor Department's Transition Assistance Program ("TAP") by conducting direct jobs 

marketing at TAP centers and Family Services Offices on key military installations. 

Another best practice for veterans' employment is to focus recruitment efforts on service 

members at the front end of their time in the military. For example, we have an active Student 

Veteran Intern Pilot program. By marketing our firm to these individuals early in their career, 

we try to create a pathway for them to rejoin a familiar community at Booz Allen later in their 

careers. We also recruit junior military officers through a program that connects these officers 

directly to a member of our military recruiting team. And further, we also have forged a 

relationship with the U.S. Army Partnership for Youth Success (PaYS) program, which offers 

Army soldiers a chance to pursue job opportunities with our firm after their military service. 

We also facilitate strategic recruitment partnerships with military community 

organizations, and we leverage these partnerships to identifY military and extended military 

community talent. Through these partnerships, the firm markets its employment opportunities to 

targeted organizations, including organizations focused on disabled and severely disabled 

veterans. 

Retention. Veterans' employment programs are not tested only at the point of hiring. 

We have prioritized retention as part of our military-related talent program and have played a 

role as thought leader on veterans' inclusion initiatives with clients such as the U.S. Chamber of 

Commerce, Department of Navy, Department of Labor, DC Business Leadership Network, and 

others. We are proud of our success in retaining veterans in Booz Allen jobs and have designed 

and implemented innovative programs to smooth the transition between a veteran's separation 

from the military and his or her integration into the civilian workforce. 

The Armed Services Forum, one of 14 employee resource groups offered by the firm, is a 

cornerstone of our retention initiatives. Led by our own employees, it provides a forum for 

veterans to communicate with each other and with our senior management about easing the 

transition from a military culture to a civilian workplace. Ideas generated in the Forum have 

assisted our Human Resources Department in developing programs to assist in the reintegration 

of staff returning from active duty. Throughout the year, the program provides resources to the 

families of activated service members. The Forum is not just open to veterans, but also to our 

non-veterans wishing to gain first-hand insights into the military perspective. The Forum is a 

success because employees and senior management alike so strongly support it. 

Booz Allen has also served as a thought leader on issues of veterans' recruitment and 

inclusion. Inspired by the success of our Armed Services Forum, the Disability Management 

Employer Coalition recruited Booz Allen employee Andrew Gilbert, one of the Forum's cofounders, to contribute to their report. Their guide, "Workplace Warriors: The Corporate 

Response to Deployment and Reintegration," identifies the challenges returning veterans face 

and strategies and resources employers can use to the support them. Many of the lessons learned 

from our program found their way into the final report, including suggestions about establishing 

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61 

a military leave and return policy and a clear communication plan to explain benefits and 

programs. 

Booz Allen is consistently recognized in the industry for top-notch training initiatives, 

and we have tailored these training opportunities to veterans. Our development programs 

include classroom-based as well as self-paced and online programs targeted at veterans. We run 

learning circles that are focused on certain military communities and a program that matches new 

hires with fellow employee mentors based on shared interests in military culture. We believe the 

combination of formal and informal programs for employees to share experiences helps solidify 

the integration of those who have served into the broader civilian workplace environment at 

BoozAllen. 

Another Booz Allen initiative that eases the transition of veterans into the civilian 

workforce is our Disability Accommodations Team (DA T). This team reaches out to all newly 

hired veterans who self-identify as disabled or as a Disabled Veteran to apprise them of services 

available to staff who may need or would benefit from workplace accommodations andlor 

ergonomic office equipment. A core feature of the program is that it provides a centralized point 

of contact for these veterans who might not otherwise be comfortable requesting this type of 

assistance from their career or job manager. In addition, costs for ergonomic equipment or 

accommodation needs are covered by a separate firmwide investment fund managed by the DA T, 

ensuring maximum effectiveness without reliance on or impact to individual team budgets. We 

believe this program significantly eases what can be a difficult transition to the civilian 

workforce for veterans who may need or benefit from services like these for the first time in their 

careers. 

Public service in the veterans' community is one of the most popular among Booz 

Allen's employee public service initiatives. We foster a supportive environment for veterans and 

other military employees and facilitate opportunities for all employees to give back to the 

military community and strengthen relationships within the company. Among many 

philanthropic efforts, Booz Allen works in partnership with the organization Rebuilding 

Together to identify veteran homeowners, among others, whose homes are in need of repairs. 

Just last month, Booz Allen deployed more than 1,200 volunteers in 32 cities to make free 

repairs to 67 properties. Fifteen ofthose properties impacted veterans and wounded warriors, 

including repairs to transitional housing for veterans in San Diego and Boston. 

Finally, we are excited to share with the subcommittee our recently launched initiative to 

study how communities can strengthen collaboration on veterans' issues with public, private, and 

non-profit groups. We have hosted four interactive community summits to date, in San Diego, 

California; Fayetteville, North Carolina; San Antonio, Texas; and Radcliff, Kentucky-dties 

across the United States where military families live, and where Booz Allen has a strong local 

presence. Earlier this year, for example, our San Antonio summit brought together roughly 30 

leaders from local government, advocacy groups, academia, healthcare provider organizations, 

businesses, and non-profit organizations to discuss providing care that is truly veteran-centric. 

We identified the most pressing hurdles facing transitioning warriors, developed collaborative 

action plans, and defined discrete initiatives that would help ensure long-term engagement with 

our participating organizations. These events serve as a catalyst for innovative ideas accessible 

to all veterans in these communities, not just those we employ. 

-4-
62 

We believe programs and initiatives such as those I just described have been key to our 

success in veterans' employment. Despite these achievements, however, we still face certain 

challenges and are always seeking ways to improve our military employment efforts. As with 

probably every firm that hires veterans, we find that providing a highly supportive and effective 

transition to the civilian workplace is most important to ensure the employee's success on the job. 

While we feel we are already highly effective in this area, we know that there is always room to 

explore new initiatives and new ways of communicating with veterans about those initiatives. 

We already work with government clients to develop programs for the transition from the 

military, but stronger coordination between the military and civilian employers on transition 

issues in particular should be a goal. 

Suggestions for improving the federal government's efforts to facilitate veterans' 

employment 

The subcommittee has asked us to discuss our company's experience in assembling 

information regarding veterans and filing this information with the Department of Labor. 

Annually, Booz Allen submits our employment statistics to the Department of Labor's Office of 

Federal Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP) and the Veterans' Employment and Training 

Service (VETS) office. Each year we report the number of veterans employed throughout the 

company, as well as the number of veterans we hired during the year. 

Booz Allen has long made hiring and retaining veterans a priority, and we agree with the 

federal government's efforts to encourage federal contractors to employ veterans. The federal 

government has struck the right regulatory balance, we believe, because it asks companies to 

think creatively about their veterans' employment efforts. We are committed to these 

substantive goals, as well as the need for reporting requirements that enable the government's 

oversight function in this critical area. 

In addition, our experience has allowed us to distill a few suggestions for reform in this 

area. Our first recommendation is that all completed VETS-J 00 and VETS-J OOA reports be 

made available to the public online in a searchable format. Organizations including the U.S. 

Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) and American Veterans (AMVETS) have testified before one 

of your peer committees to the importance of transparency in veterans' hiring, and we concur 

with these views. We are confident this change would yield solutions because data analytics are 

the foundation not only of our own successful programs but also of many of the consulting 

services we provide for our government clients, including clients seeking strategies to improve 

their veterans' -related programs. Making the VETS reports public would permit firms to 

develop datasets from them and in turn formulate new and increasingly creative solutions for 

improving veterans' employment at their respective firms. 

Beyond that, we also recommend that there be greater visibility to employers about how 

the wealth of data that is collected is actually used. To know what data is of greatest importance 

to the government, and more specifically how it is used to benefit which particular programs, 

would allow employers to fine tune their hiring strategies to better align with the government's 

goals and priorities. We believe this reform too will increase the information flow between 

federal contractors and the government, further enabling creative approaches to some of the 

issues we have discussed here today. 

- 5-
63 

Senate Homeland Security & Governmental Affairs Committee 

Subcommittee on Contracting Oversight 

Veterans Employment and Government Contractors 

Testimony of Sally Sullivan, Executive Vice President 

ManTech International Corporation 

June 5,2012 
64 

Madam Chairman, Senator Portman, and distinguished members of the Committee, I am 

honored on behalf of ManTech International Corporation and our CEO and Chairman of the 

Board, Mr. George J. Pedersen to appear before you this morning to share our experiences in 

hiring and retaining our nation's veterans. As requested by your invitation letter, I have come 

today prepared to share with the Committee our experience in assembling and filing information 

regarding veterans to the Department of Labor, and our thoughts on what can be done to 

improve the federal government's efforts to facilitate the hiring of veterans by contractors. 

ManTech is a global employer to almost 10,000 people, many of whom have selflessly served 

their country in uniform. That roughly 40% of our employees today proudly identify themselves 

as having served or are currently serving in the U.S. military, is evidence of the success we enjoy 

as a company and culture that successfully attracts those exiting the military and assimilates 

them into the civilian workforce on a sustained basis. ManTech provides those leaving the 

military with the opportunity to join the civilian workforce, the opportunity to gain additional job 

skills and training, healthcare coverage, and the opportunity to continue to serve their country 

and support an important mission as a contractor. 

As the majority of our work today supports the U.S. military and Intelligence Community, a large 

number of the career opportunities available at ManTech are for positions that directly support 

mission requirements, and typically require skills gained through military service and the 

possession of active security clearances. To meet staffing requirements, ManTech actively 

engages with a variety of sources to identify and recruit the talent required by our government 

customers. Many of our recruiting activities are focused on engaging those who are in the 

process of exiting the military, or those who have recently exited. ManTech is an active member 

of more than a dozen military employment partnerships such as the 100,000 Jobs Mission, the 

Military Spouse Employment Partnership, Wounded Warrior Project, Hiring Our Heroes, and VA 

for Vets. We also build and maintain relationships directly with colleges and universities that 

support the G.!. Bill and offer programs developed especially for veterans. Over the past year, 

we have participated in more than 125 hiring events spanning 72 cities nationwide. As a result, 

2 
65 

we connected with more than 5,000 veterans and hired more than 2,000 of them. 

As part of our outreach to recruits, we work closely with the Transition Assistance Program 

(TAP), sponsored by the U.S. military. Through TAP, we offer onsite assistance to active-duty 

soldiers who will be leaving the military, including practical advice on how to develop and write 

resumes, how to interview for jobs, and how the civilian job environment works. 

The fact that ManTech's employment base is made up of more than 40% veterans helps greatly with 

the reception and integration of new veteran hires. As much of our work aligns with or is 

complimentary to the skills that come with having military experience, veterans at ManTech find 

that making the transition from their military service to a civilian job is generally a smooth 

process that happens in a relatively short period of time. 

Of the many things we do to retain our employees, to include veterans, ManTech offers 

educational, skills and career development training as well as mentorship opportunities. Our 

educational programs are offered through ManTech University, or MTU, a first-class, award 

winning corporate university established to support the emerging training and educational needs 

of our employees. MTU focuses on learner-centered instructional design, using interactive 

delivery methods, with an emphasis on thoughtful and informed problem definition, and 

implementing complex training initiatives. MTU has designed and deployed over 400 custom elearning courses on a web-based platform available to ManTech employees 24/7 and in 

numerous countries throughout the world. MTU is also an equivalent provider for the Defense 

Acquisition University (DAU), and the Project Management Institute (PM I), which allows 

ManTech employees to maintain continuing education credits by taking e-Iearning courses 

developed by ManTech. Additionally, MTU has alliances with 13 different accredited universities, 

offering certificates, bachelors and masters degrees and mini-MBAs both online and in traditional 

classroom settings. These university alliances offer our employees an even wider range of credit 

and non-credit bearing professional development and continuing education courses that help 

meet the specific workforce training needs of ManTech and its customers. 

3 
66 

In 2011, a large percentage of our veteran employees took advantage of training opportunities 

through ManTech University. More than 40,000 courses were successfully completed by our 

veterans, roughly 10 courses per veteran employee. 

Many of ManTech's contracts require foreign deployments so ManTech offers two specific 

programs to assist the family members of deployed individuals. One program called LifeWorks, 

provides employees and family members free confidential access to resources and counseling 24 

hours a day, 365 days a year. This program offers expert guidance on health related issues, 

addiction, grief and loss, financial ideas, how to parent a difficult child or teenager, and how to 

cope with stress. This program also assists families with referrals to local resources and services. 

Constant Care, a second program offered by ManTech is an internally staffed program available 

to employees 24 hours a day, 365 days a year by Human Resource professionals who have the 

knowledge and experience to assist deployed employees and their families. The employees who 

staff Constant Care are well versed on deployment and understand the unique challenges facing 

family members and provide a consistent connection for the family to the employee and 

ManTech. Constant Care is similar to the Military Ombudsman Program and, therefore, is 

familiar and well received by veterans and their families. 

As a result of retention efforts such as these, many of our new recruits come as referrals from 

existing employees, which accounts in part for ManTech being named "#6 top military friendly 

employers" by G.!. Jobs Magazine, "most valuable employer for the military" by CivilianJobs.com, 

"one of the country's most veteran-friendly employers" by USAA Magazine, and "top 10 best 

employer for veterans" by Military Times Edge Magazine. 

I am hopeful that this information sheds light on our experiences as well as some of the best 

practices we have developed at ManTech to recruit and retain veterans. Now, I will address your 

second request, which is to comment on ManTech's experience with assembling and filing 

information regarding veterans with the Department of Labor. 

4 
67 

Logistically, the assembling and reporting information required by the Department of Labor for 

the VETS-l00A is automated by database systems that capture employee information at the 

initial stage of the hiring process, when information required for payroll, health benefits, taxes, 

etc. is input into our systems when new-hires join ManTech. Each new employee is asked to selfidentify if they are a veteran and this information is aggregated and reviewed by Human 

Resources specialists as well as by senior management routinely throughout the year. VETS-l00A 

reporting to the Department of Labor is one of several routine compliance reports for which 

ManTech maintains established and audited compliance procedures. Changes to the VETS-l00A 

reporting requirements or to the current Affirmative Action Plan requirements would need to be 

evaluated before I could comment knowledgeably about impact. 

Lastly, you have asked for our suggestions for improving the federal government's efforts to 

facilitate the hiring of veterans by contractors. To answer this question thoughtfully, I engaged 

with several cognizant employees working in a variety of levels and roles. Whether Human 

Resources specialist, recruiter or line manager, their answers were very consistent... all felt 

strongly that the federal government already takes many bold and aggressive actions to ensure 

maximum outreach to this important segment of our population. Further, we know that 

companies like ManTech have embraced veterans outreach. After all, if we have not served 

ourselves, we each have family members and loved ones who have selflessly served our nation 

or are serving today. Our recommendation is to "stay the course" with those efforts we have in 

place today. 

Madam Chairman, thank you for inviting me to appear before the Committee today on this 

very important matter. I would be pleased to answer any further questions at this time. 

5 
68 

Questions for the Record from Ramsey Sulayman 

Q. Does IA VA believe that the Employer Support for the Guard and Reserve (ESGR) award 

support system for companies is effective? If not, how could the system be improved? 

IA VA believes that recognizing employers who support the Guard and reserve service of their 

employees is important. Recognizing employer support not only serves to applaud the valuable 

contributions of employers but lets employees and the general public know a company's level of 

commitment. The Employer Support of the Guard and Reserve has several different awards that 

an employer can receive. An employer must be nominated by a current employee who is a 

member of the Guard or reserve for a Patriot Award; higher awards are then considered by state 

or territory ESGR committees. 

The awards system, as currently designed, can serve to recognize employer support ranging from 

being "highly supportive" of employees' service to continuing employees' salaries while they are 

on active duty. However, it is not clear from the nominating forms or the process described on 

the ESGR website what other (if any) specific criteria is used to evaluate employers. IA VA 

believes that outlining specific criteria for specific awards would help increase the efficacy of the 

program by giving employers goals to strive for and letting the public know exactly what an 

employer has done to deserve a Freedom Award, for instance This approach would also 

guarantee that employers meet a minimum standard. For example, all levels of awards should 

require that an employer not have any USERRA complaints, SCRA violations, or legal action 

related to an employee's military service filed against them. 

The Department of Labor's Office of Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP) has published a 

proposed rule which would require for the first time that federal contracts establish annual hiring 

benchmarks, including specific information on veterans in the civilian labor force, the number of 

veterans who participated in state employment services, and referral ratios. 

Q. Does lAVA have any concerns about the proposed rule? 

In the current economic climate, the veteran unemployment rate has been consistently higher 

than the civilian unemployment rate. In some cases, the unemployment rate for veterans of Iraq 

and Afghanistan has been significantly higher, such as the unemployment rate for 18-24 year 

olds which for veterans has been double the civilian rate and higher. Therefore, it is sensible that 

the federal government does everything in its power to reduce the level of unemployment for 

those who have served their country so honorably. 

One of the hurdles that makes assessing the success of programs aimed at veterans is the lack of 

information about veterans. While lAVA supports establishing benchmarks for hiring of veterans 

by federal contractors and establishing benchmarks for contracting with service-disabled veteran 

small businesses (SDVOSB) and veteran owned small businesses (VOSB), we recognize that 

this poses some issues for employers as well as the federal government. Establishing benchmarks 
69 

arbitrarily is a concern because some fields may be significantly under-represented by veterans, 

SDVOSB and VOSB. The reporting requirements required by the OFCCP's proposed rule do not 

appear to be overly burdensome and can possibly fill some of the gaps in knowledge about 

veteran employment. Benchmarks should also be adjusted based on the best available 

information. 

IA VA believes that requiring federal contractors to post employment vacancies with state 

employment agencies is a reasonable request. Theoretically at least, disabled veteran outreach 

program officers (DVOPs) and local veteran employment representatives (LVERs) are the first 

point of contact for veterans seeking employment. Practically, this has not been the case, 

however, because states have come to use DVOPs and LVERs as auxiliary personnel for all 

clients rather than allowing them to focus exclusively on veterans. This is an example of why 

lAVA supports moving the Department of Labor's Veteran Employment and Training Service 

(DoL VETS) to the VA. Consolidating DVOPs and LVERs into a single role as veteran 

employment specialists and requiring that they focus on veterans will substantially increase the 

likelihood that OFCCP' s posting requirements find their target audience and that the intent of 

increasing veteran employment levels with federal contractors is met. 
70 

Post-Hearing Questions for the Record 

Submitted to 

Pamela Hardy, Senior Manager, Diversity and Inclusion Team, 

Booz Allen Hamilton 

"Veterans Employmcnt and Government Contractors" 

Tuesday, June 5, 2012,10;00 A.M. 

United States Senate, Subcommittee on Contracting Oversight, 

Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs 

Q. How many veterans are employed in management level positions at Booz Allen Hamilton? 

A: 34.4 percent of employees at the level of Senior Associate and above self-identify as 

veterans. In addition, 31 percent of the firm's Leadership Team self-identifies as having a 

military background. 

The Department of Labor's Office of Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP) has published a 

proposed rule which would require for the first time that federal contracts establish annual hiring 

benchmarks, including specific information on veterans in the civilian labor force, the number of 

veterans who participated in state employment services, and referral ratios. 

Q. Does Booz Allen Hamilton have any concerns about the proposed rule? 

A: As we indicated in our testimony during the hearing, Booz Allen has its own very strong 

commitment to hiring veterans. This commitment is an integral part of our firm's culture, and 

we believe that it is good for our employees and our business. We fully intend to maintain our 

leadership position in the industry as a military employer of choice, notwithstanding the 

establishment of the proposed rule and accompanying benchmarks. I f a rule were to be 

implemented, we would hope that the rule would allow companies such as Booz Allen the 

flexibility to continue their successful practices and programs with respect to the recruitment of 

military veterans and, furthermore, hope that the rule achieves its desired positive effects. 

Q. Has OFCCP ever performed a routine desk audit on your company? If so, was the audit 

focused on veterans employment specifically or more generally on equal employment 

opportunity requirements? 

A: The OFCCP has performed routine audits of Booz Allen; to the best of our knowledge. the 

past audits performed were not focused specifically on veterans employment. 

Q. Has OFCCP ever asked to view Booz Allen Hamilton's affirmative action plan? 

A: The OFCCP has asked to view, and has reviewed, various Booz Allen affirmative action 

plans, 

At the hearing, a proposal was made that separating service members should be allowed to retain 

their security clearances while taking advantage of their post-service education benefits. 
71 

Q. Would such a proposal be of a benefit to Booz Allen Hamilton? 

A: For a company such as Booz Allen which regularly hires employees for positions requiring 

security clearances, the time required to wait for staff to receive new clearances can be 

substantial and costly, and this negatively impacts our ability to serve clients. Any program that 

would expand the pipeline of candidates who hold existing clearances would be beneficial to us 

in that regard. 
72 

Questions for the Record from Sally Sullivan 

Q. What number and percentage of the personnel hired and employed by ManTech over the past three 

years are members of the National Guard or Reserve? 

2010 2011 2012YTD Total 

Active National Guard: 24 22 13 59 

Inactive National Guard: 23 21 5 49 

Active Reserve: 32 28 14 74 

Inactive Reserve: 91 59 36 186 

Total 170 130 68 368 

Q. How does ManTech work with the Transition Assistance Program (TAP)? Are there opportunities for 

better integration with the business community and potential employers? 

ManTech works with all ofthe TAP programs: Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps and Coast Guard. We 

have a formal partnership with the Army's TAP program (ACAP) and informal partnerships with the 

other programs. ManTech regularly participates in: 

TAP sponsored Military Career Fairs on bases across the country 

TAP and HAP classes (executive classes for retirees; higher ranking career military officers and 

staff non-commissioned officers) during which we provide them with employment information 

regarding ManTech as well as military transition related instruction 

TAP employer discussion panels and symposiums 

We provide job positing to the Armed Services and TAP coordinators for distribution and post all of our 

jobs on the Services TAP websites and social media sites. The Services TAP websites also provide links to 

our Man Tech Talent Network and Careers Website. 

Q. Has ManTech worked directly with the Transition Assistance Offices at military bases? If so, how 

effective have those partnerships been? How can they improve? 

There is a significant opportunity for better integration of TAP with employers in the business 

community. At this time, TAP classes do not directly connect transitioning military with employers other 

than through the informal methods J mentioned above. However, the US Chamber of Commerce is 

working on a project ("Fast Track" /Employment Mapping Program) that has the potential to significantly 

enhance the connection between transitioning military members and employers. The Chamber's 

program will essentially create a job board that service members attending TAP will be able to utilize to 

fjnd and apply for jobs during and following attendance of the TAP course. In short, the Department of 

Defense and the business community recognize that there are some shortcomings in the current TAP 

curriculum and are working to improve connections between veterans and employers. 
73 

Q. In your testimony, you stated that ManTech has a number of current vacancies that it is unable to fill 

despite recruiting efforts. What areas are these vacancies in? How can the government or veterans 

groups help match up the right applicant with these vacancies? 

The hard to fill vacancies are for defense and intelligence related work, almost all of which require a 

security clearance. For those veterans that held security clearances as a result of their active duty, the 

ability to maintain their security clearances is very important. Because possession of a security 

clearance improves employment prospects with companies that serve the US military and Intelligence 

Community, anything the government can do to help veterans preserve and pass their security 

clearances to private industry jobs that require security clearance should improve their success with 

securing these jobs. 

Q. Does ManTech have any concerns about the proposed rule? 

Yes, while ManTech maintains a strong commitment to hiring veterans, the proposed regulations would 

impose a significant administrative burden on employers. 

Q. Has OFCCP ever performed a routine desk audit on your company? 

Yes. 

If so, was the audit focused on veterans' employment specifically or more generally on equal 

employment opportunity requirements? 

Audits have been routine, and more generally on equal employment requirements. 

Q. Has OFCCP ever asked to view Man Tech's affirmative action plan? 

Yes. 
74 

Fact Sheet 

VETERANS HIRING BY GOVERNMENT CONTRACTORS 

Senator Claire McCaskill 

Chairman, Subcommittee on Contracting Oversight 

Companies with government contracts are required to report information to the government regarding the 

hiring and employment of veterans. Contractors with at least $100,000 in contracts awarded after December 1, 

2003 must submit this information to the Labor Department's Office of the Assistant Secretary for Veterans 

Employment and Training (VETS) using a form called the VETS-100A.' 

At the request of Chairman Claire McCaskill, the Labor Department provided the Subcommittee with the 

available information collected by VETS.' The data received by the Subcommittee raises serious concerns 

about whether contractors are providing accurate data to the Labor Department and whether the Labor 

Department performs adequate quality assurance. In its review, the Subcommittee noted obviously incorrect 

information and statistically improbable data. The information provided to the Subcommittee is also missing 

data for many contractors, including large employers such as Booz Allen, Supreme Group, and ManTech 

International.3 

Except as noted, the Subcommittee's analysis assumes that the VETS-100A data provided is accurate. 

Overview of Veterans Hirine 

The VETS-lOOA information produced by the Labor Department shows that federal contractors hired 223,666 

veterans in 2010. In total, approximately 946,515 veterans were employed by government contractors and 

their subsidiaries in 2010,4 

According to the data provided by the Labor Department, the contractor who hired the most veterans in 2010 

was Compass Group, who reported that they hired 78,385 veterans. This number is likely incorrect, as it is 

approximately four times larger than Compass' reported total for all new hires.s 
75 

The information provided to the Subcommittee from the Labor Department also does not match information 

provided by contractors as part of a study which appeared in Forbes magazine. According to Forbes, the top 

corporate employers of veterans in 2010 were Baaz ABen Hamilton, SAle, Northrop Grumman, L-3 

Communications, Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, CSC, CACI, and Boeing.' 

Catee-aries of Veterans Hired 

The VETS-l00A reports comprise four categories of "covered" veterans. These categories include: 

Disabled Veterans - (i) a veteran of the U.S. military, ground, naval or air service who is entitled to 

compensation (or who but for the receipt of military retired pay would be entitled to compensation) under 

laws administered by the Secretary of Veterans Affairs, or (ii) a person who was discharged or released 

from active duty because of a service-connected disability. 

Other Protected Veterans - a veteran who served on active duty in the U.S. military, ground, naval, or air 

service during a war or in a campaign or expedition for which a campaign badge has been authorized. 

• Armed Forces Service Medal Veterans - means a veteran who, while serving on active duty in the U.S. 

military, ground, naval, or air service, participated in a U.S. military operation for which an Armed Forces 

service medal was awarded pursuant to Executive Order 12985. 

Recently Separated Veterans - a veteran during the three-year period beginning on the date of such 

veteran's discharge or release from active duty in the U,S. military, ground, naval, or air service.? 

Contractors are permitted to count new hires and employees in more than one category. so there is the 

pOSSibility that numbers are overstated. 

The information provided to the Subcommittee shows tbat recently separated veterans comprised only 19% of 

all new hires. 

Type of Covered Veteran New Hires 

• Disabled Veterans 

• Other Protected Veterans 

il1J: Armed Forces Service 

Medal Veterans 

• Recently Separated 

Veterans 
76 

2010 Veterans Hirine by Contractors Receiving the Most Federal Contract Dollars 

The 20 largest government contractors, who collectively received more than $177.3 billion in government 

contracts in 2010, reported hiring approximately 27,814 veterans in 2010. Two of the largest contractors, 

Cerberus Capital Management (the owner of DynCorp) and Booz Allen Hamilton, both of whom reportedly hire 

many veterans, did not have any information in the 2010 VETS-100A report. 
77 

The five largest government contractors, which accounted for over $102 billion of total contract dollars in 2010, 

reported hiring 15,966 veterans. These companies alone accounted for 7% of all new veteran hires in 2010. 

Contractor Hiring by State 

Contractors are required to report the city, county, and state where veterans are hired. Although the contract may 

not actually be performed in that location, the information highlights where contractors are most active in hiring 

veterans. According to the data provided to the Subcommittee, contractors hired the most veterans in Texas 

(19,625), Virginia (18,925), California (15,100)' Florida (14,833), and Pennsylvania (13,482). 

4 
78 

Veterans Hiring by Small Businesses8 

A review of veterans hiring by the top ten small businesses by contract dollars received illustrates the 

significant amount of hiring data that was not reported for the VETS-lOOA. 

Veterans Hiring by Veteran-Owned Small Businesses 

Anecdotally, veteran-owned small businesses are among the leading employers of veterans.10 However, it cannot be 

determined from the data provided whether some contractors simply did not report the data or whether they had 

no qualifying contracts that required reporting. 
79 

* Also received contracts as a service-disabled, veteran-owned small business. 

138 U.S.c. 4212. The Jobs for Veterans Act of 2002 expanded on the reporting requirements originally enacted in 

the Vietnam Era Veterans Readjustment Assistant Act of 1972. 

2 letter from Chairman Claire McCaskill to Secretary Hilda Solis, labor Department (Nov. 15, 2011); Letter from 

Brian V. Kennedy, Labor Department to Chairman Claire McCaskill (Dec. 20, 2011). 

3 In conversations with Subcommittee staff, a representative for ManTech stated that they submitted their 2010 

VETS-IOOA information to the Labor Department. 

4 This number does not include the 10.9 million veterans reportedly employed by National Interest Advanced 

Solutions, a small business based in West Virginia. 

S In conversations with Subcommittee staff. a representative for Compass Group stated that they had difficulty 

submitting information for 2010 to the Labor Department. Compass Group stated that they provided the same 

information to the Department electronically multiple times and ultimately provided the information manually. 

,; The Top Employers for Veterans, Forbes (Apr. 23, 2012) (online at 

http://www.forbes.com/sitesliacguelynsmithI2012/04/23/the-top-employers-for-veterans/. According to Forbes, 

the study looked only at employers that offer positions where military experience or training was highly relevant in 

day to day work. 

, 38 U.S,C, § 4212(a)(3), 

8 Previous work by the Subcommittee has demonstrated that some businesses that are not actually small by the 

industry standards developed by the Small Business Administration receive small business contracts, The 

businesses listed here are the ones that received the most small businesses contract dollars. See Subcommittee on 

Contracting OverSight, Hearings on Small Business Contracts: How Oversight Failures and Regulatory Loopholes 

Allow Large Businesses to Get and Keep Small Business Contracts, 112th Congo (July 26, 2011) (S. Hrg. 112-144). 

9 immixTechnology's parent company, immixGroup, reported data in the VETS-IOO, but reported that it hired no 

veterans in the 2010 reporting period. 

10 In preparation for its hearing, the Subcommittee met with numerous veteran services organizations (VSOs), 

which reported that veteran-owned small businesses were among those businesses which hired veterans at a high 

rate. 

11 CSI Aviation Services reported in the VETS-lOO that it hired one special disabled veteran in the 2010 reporting 

period. 

6 
80 

June 11,2012 

Kelsey Stroud 

United States Senate 

Committee on Homeland Security & Governmental Affairs 

Contracting Oversight Subcommittee 

340 Dirksen Senate Office Building 

Washington DC, 20510 

Dear Ms. Stroud: 

Booz I Allen I Hamilton 

Booz Allen Hamilton Inc. 

8283 Greensboro Drive 

McLean. Virginia 22102 

rei (703) 902-5000 

Fa, (703) 902-3333 

Please extend our thanks to the Subcommittee for inviting Booz Allen Hamilton to testify before 

the Contracting Oversight Subcommittee on June 5,2012. As we described in both our written 

and oral testimony, the hiring of veterans is a very important issue to BOOl Allen and is woven 

throughout the fabric of our corporate culture. We are grateful that the Subcommittee is focused 

on the important task of encouraging the hiring of veterans and easing their transition into the 

workforce. 

We are writing today in response to a request made at the hearing for Booz Allen's hiring data 

with respect to Reservists and National Guard personnel. While we do not capture National 

Guard specific data, we are able to provide you with information on Booz Allen's hiring history 

for Reservists. Below, please find Booz Allen's data for the last three fiscal years that has been 

self-reported by our employees and compiled by our Human Resources Department: 

Total 

Employee 

Headcount 

Total 

Hires 

Firmwide Military % 

FYlO 23,315 7,651 32.8% 

FYll 25,024 7689 30.7% 

FYl2 24,950 7554 30.3% 

S"I/rcr Boo: A{/m HR DaM Mgt/II Bastd on sdf rry;orled infomWltm 

Flrmwide Military % 

FYlO 5,021 1701 33.9% 

FYll 6,218 1663 26.7% 

FYl2 5,234 1420 27.1% 

Source. 800: AI/til HR D~1tl Mglllt • Saw QlI !ll'lf·rqJOflerl i'l{umliltioll 

Reservists % 

773 3.3% 

948 3.8% 

1003 4.0% 

Reservists % 

208 4.1% 

354 5.7% 

318 6.1% 
81 

June 11, 2012 

Page 2 

Again, Booz Allen is honored to have participated in the Contracting Oversight Subcommittee's 

inquiry into veteran hiring in our industry. Please feel to reach out to us if you have additional 

questions or require additional information. 

Sincerely, 

{j~2fJ~_ .. - William S. Meyers BOOZ ALLEN HAMILTON INC. 

Vice President & Deputy General Counsel 
82 

STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD 

Director Patricia A. Shiu 

Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs 

United States Department of Labor 

Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Government Affairs 

Subcommittee on Contracting Oversight 

Hearing on 

"Veterans Employment and Government Contractors" 

.June 5, 2012 

Introduction 

Chair McCaskill, Ranking Member Portman, and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for 

holding this important hearing. President Obama and Secretary Solis are committed to ensuring 

that the men and women who serve this country have the employment support, assistance, and 

opportunities they deserve to succeed in the civilian workforce. 

As the Director of the Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs ("OFCCP") at the 

Department of Labor ("Department"), I am pleased to provide this Statement for the Record on 

some of the Department's regulatory and enforcement actions to promote the employment of 

Veterans by federal contractors and subcontractors. 

OFCCP is a worker protection agency, responsible for enforcing the civil rights of nearly onequarter of American workers. The mission of OFCCP's more than 700 dedicated staff is to 

protect workers, promote diversity, and enforce the nation's equal employment opportunity laws 

in federal contractors' and subcontractors' workforces. OFCCP has jurisdiction over 170,000-

plus establishments that profit from over $700 billion in government contracts annually. These 

companies are held to the fair and reasonable standard that discrimination, including 

discrimination against our nation's Veterans, must never be a factor in their hiring, promotion, 

termination, compensation, and other employment decisions. With jurisdiction over so many 

employees and companies, the work OFCCP does to level the playing field has a ripple effect 

across the entire labor market. 

Background on OFCCP 

OFCCP has long been a pillar of the federal government's civil rights enforcement and enforces, 

for the benefit of job seekers and wage earners, the contractual promise of equal employment 

opportunity (both nondiscrimination and affirmative action) required of those who do business 

with the federal government. OFCCP administers and enforces three legal authorities that 

require equal employment opportunity: (1) the Vietnam Era Veterans' Readjustment Assistance 

Act of 1974, as amended, 38 U.S.C. 4212 ("VEVRAA"); (2) Executive Order 11246, as 
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amended ("the Order" or "EO 11246"); and (3) Section 503 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, as 

amended, 29 U.S.c. 793 ("Section 503"). 

VEVRAA sets forth the requirements for nondiscrimination against Veterans by federal 

contractors. Section 4212(a)(1) prohibits federal contractors from discriminating against 

specified categories of Veterans I and requires contractors to take affirmative action to employ, 

and advance in employment, those Veterans. Federal contractors with a contract of at least 

$100,000 and 50 or more employees are required to develop and maintain a formal Affirmative 

Action Program for Velerans. 

EO 11246 prohibits federal contractors and federally-assisted construction contractors and 

subcontractors (hereafter, "contractors") who have contracts of at least $10,000 with the federal 

government from discriminating in employment on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or 

national origin. For contractors with 50 or more employees and a contract of at least $50,000, 

the Order also requires contractors to develop and maintain a formal Affirmative Action Program 

to ensure that equal opportunity is provided in all aspects of their employment. 

Section 503 protects the employment rights of individuals with disabilities. It covers persons 

with a wide range of mental and physical impairments that substantially limit or restrict a major 

life activity such as hearing, seeing, speaking, walking, breathing, performing manual tasks, 

caring for oneself, learning, or working. Like the Order, Section 503 requires federal contractors 

with Government contracts of at least $50,000 and 50 employees to develop and maintain a 

formal Affirmative Action Program for individuals with disabilities. 

Taken together, these laws ban discrimination and require federal contractors to take affirmative 

action to ensure that all individuals have an equal opportunity for employment, without regard to 

race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability or status as a protected Veteran. Under all 

three laws, provided the aforementioned contractual dollar and employee thresholds are met, 

contractors must develop written programs detailing the actions that they are taking for this 

purpose and make the plans available when requested in a compliance evaluation or complaint 

investigation. It is important to note that EO 11246 protects individuals from discrimination 

based on sex and race, so that veterans facing discrimination based on those traits are also 

covered by that law. Similarly, Section 503 protects persons who are disabled from 

discrimination, providing another source of protection for disabled veterans. 

Over the past few years, OFCCP has focused on three priorities: 

• strengthening enforcement activities, 

• broadening outreach to agency stakeholders, and 

I For contracts entered into before December I, 2003, the contract dollar threshold is $25,000, and the Veterans 

covered are: (1) special disabled Veterans; (2) Veterans of the Vietnam era; (3) Veterans who served on active duty 

in the Anned Forces during a war or in a campaign or expedition for which a campaign badge has been authorized; 

and (4) Veterans separated from the service for one year or less. For contracts entered into on or after December I, 

2003, the contract dollar threshold is $100,000, and the Veterans covered are: (I) disabled Veterans; (2) Veterans 

who served on active duty in the Armed Forces during a war or in a campaign or expedition for which a campaign 

badge has been authorized; (3) Veterans who, while serving on active duty in the Anned Forces, participated in a 

United States military operation for which an Armed Forces service medal was awarded pursuant to Executive 

Order No. 12985; and (4) Veterans separated from the service for three years or less. 
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• implementing an ambitious agenda of regulatory reform. 

All three of these priorities are directly related to improving job opportunities for protected 

Veterans in federal contractors' workplaces. 

Strengthening Enforcement 

The majority of OFCCP' s enforcement consists of in-depth compliance evaluations of about 

4,000 contractor establishments annually, selected according to a neutral selection and 

scheduling system. During these scheduled reviews, compliance officers check to make sure that 

contractors are meeting their legal obligations to provide equal opportunity for all of their 

workers. OFCCP also receives and investigates complaints, filed by individuals or classes of 

individuals, of violations of any of the three laws that the agency enforces. 

OFCCP's compliance reviews are particularly important because too often, workers and job 

applicants are unaware of the discrimination they face. Job seekers who don't get an offer, 

employees who are being paid less than colleagues doing similar work, workers who are 

downsized in a bad economy they may not know if the underlying cause is discrimination, 

because they do not have the necessary information. But federal contractors have specific 

obligations when it comes to recordkeeping and data collection, including maintaining 

information about listed job openings; worker recruitment methods; selections of interviewees 

for openings; and decisions about hiring, terminations, placement, pay, and promotions. 

Contractors are required to share those records with OFCCP during audits, and OFCCP is able to 

analyze that data and determine if there are indicators of discrimination. If so, OFCCP does a 

more in-depth investigation to sec if the contractor treats protected groups differently or follows 

practices that create an unjustified adverse impact on job seekers or workers. 

When I first became Director of the OFCCP in September 2009, I was disappointed to discover 

that OFCCP's compliance evaluations did not routinely include checks for compliance with 

VEVRAA or Section 503. Instead, the agency audited for VEVRAA and Section 503 

compliance in only a few focused reviews each year, which meant that very few violations of 

those laws were ever uncovered. As soon as I could, I changed that practice. OFCCP now 

reviews compliance with VEVRAA and Section 503 in every evaluation in which a contractor 

meets minimum coverage requirements. One result of this change is that the proportions of 

evaluations in which violations are found have significantly increased. For VEVRAA, that 

proportion rose from four percent in FY 2005 to 18 percent in FY 2011. For Section 503, 

the proportion rose from three percent in FY 2005 to 10 percent in FY 2011. The vast majority 

of these include failure to have an Affirmative Action Program, failure to conduct outreach, 

recordkeeping violations, and, for VEVRAA, failure to list job openings with State Workforce 

Agencies or local employment delivery service systems as required. 

Another result of this change is that it enables OFCCP Compliance Officers (COs) to verify that 

contractors have filed their VETS-l 00 and 100A reports in every case. VEVRAA currently 

requires that qualifying federal contractors and subcontractors file a VETS-l 00 and/or VETS100A report annually to the Secretary that contains certain statistical data on their workforce, 

including the number of employees and new hires who belong to the categories of Veterans 
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protected under the statute. Since April of this year, contractors' completed VETS-! 00 and 

! OOA reports have been directly available to COs in the OFCCP internal database system. 

Pursuant to a Memorandum of Understanding between OFCCP and the Department of Labor's 

Veterans' Employment and Training Service (VETS), OFCCP notifies VETS if it finds that a 

contractor has not complied with the VETS-! 00/! OOA filing requirement at the time it conducts a 

scheduled compliance evaluation for that particular facility 2 

As DOL has previously testified, the Department also supports public disclosure via the Internet 

of the information contained in the VETS-J 0011 OOA reports submitted annually by federal 

contractors to DOL. In our view, providing public access to the information contained in VETS-

!OO/lOOA reports is consistent with the President's commitment to openness and transparency in 

government, and supports the Secretary's "Good Jobs for Everyone" initiative. Qualified 

Veterans seeking employment may find the information contained in the VETS-J 0011 OOA 

reports useful in targeting their job search, by helping them to identify federal contractors who 

employ or have recently hired Veterans with similar skill sets. Moreover, making information 

contained in these reports publicly available will encourage federal contractor compliance. 

However, the Department would want to work with Congress, the contractor community and 

others to ensure the appropriate treatment of proprietary or other confidential or protected 

information. 

Under this Administration, OFCCP has also undertaken a concerted effort to shift toward more 

thorough, careful and consistent compliance reviews, toward higher quality not just quantity -

of evaluations. In 2010, OFCCP provided the first national training for its compliance officers in 

more than a decade. Also in 2010, it updated its enforcement and evaluation protocols to 

improve the way compliance evaluations are conducted with more thorough desk audits, more 

frequent on-site investigations, more flexibility in defining classes of victims, and more reviews 

focused on specific types of discrimination. Now, OFCCP investigates all types of 

discrimination - not just hiring, but also compensation, placement, promotion, termination, 

harassment, retaliation, and other conditions of employment; every protected group, including 

women, minorities, people with disabilities, and protected Veterans; and every industry and job 

group. Notably, these changes have been accomplished while maintaining the overall level of 

compliance evaluations conducted at approximately 4,000 per year. 

In some cases, OFCCP requests additional information during the desk audit phase of a 

compliance evaluation. This has been a long-standing practice and has been upheld by the 

courts, which have found that contractors must provide the information requested. As one 

United States District Court recently stated: "submission to such lawful investigations is the 

price of working as a federal contractor.,,3 OFCCP has always verified and followed up on 

concerns presented in a contractor's Affirmative Action Plan or otherwise revealed in a desk 

audit, and will continue to do so. 

2 Generally, contractors are required to file their VETS-l 0011 OOA reports annually, typically by September 30 of 

each year following the calendar year in which the contractor held a covered contract, in order to be in compliance 

with the VETS· 100!1 OOA reporting regulation. For 2012, these reports are due by September 30,2012. 

3 United Space Alliance, LLC v. Solis, Civil Action No. 11-746,2011 WL 5520428 (D.D.C. Nov. 14,20 II). 

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The increased thoroughness of OFCCP's compliance reviews is revealed by several other (nonVEVRAA) performance statistics as well: 

• The proportion of compliance evaluations in which some kind of violation - including 

discrimination as well as violations such as failure to have an Affirmative Action 

Program, failure to list job openings as required, failure to do outreach, and 

recordkeeping violations -- rose dramatically, from 13 percent in FY 2007 to 30 percent 

in FY 2011. 

• In FY 2011, the number of cases closed with financial remedies was at its highest point 

since at least FY 2005. 

• The amount of back pay and interest collected in FY 20 II -- $12.3 million - was at its 

highest point since at least FY 2005. 

• The average back pay and interest per eligible worker in FY 2011 -- $842 -- was at its 

highest point since at least FY 2005. 

One statistic that has remained constant is that the vast majority of reviews in which violations 

were found - 99 percent are resolved by conciliation agreement or consent decree. Extremely 

few cases go to litigation, and voluntary compliance is always OFCCP's goal. However, 

OFCCP will litigate if necessary, and, for the worst offenders, will seek debarment of federal 

contracts. 

In addition, OFCCP has an active program to assure the quality of its evaluations. Under the 

new procedures aunounced in 2010, every 25th contractor establishment is selected for a full 

compliance evaluation - including on-site visits -- for quality control purposes. Moreover, the 

Branch of Quality Assurance in OFCCP's Division of Program Operations conducts 

accountability reviews of field operations and oversees quality assurance activities undertaken by 

field staff to ensure quality in compliance evaluations and complaint investigations. This quality 

assurance program has been in effect for more than 30 years. 

OFCCP also works with the Employment and Training Administration (ETA) to ensure that 

federal contractors are listing appropriate job openings with the employment service delivery 

system so that Veterans may be given priority in referral, as stated in 41 C.F.R. 60-250.S(a)(2) 

and 60-300.5(a)(2). ETA administers the federal programs that are part of the Nation's 

workforce system and, in collaboration with VETS, supports the statutory requirement that 

Veterans and other eligible individuals receive priority of service within these programs. ETA 

recognizes the importance of these activities, not only for listing federal contractors' job 

announcements and referring Veterans to job openings, but for getting unemployed Veterans 

back to work more generally. In PY 2010 alone, the workforce system served over 1.7 million 

Veterans. 
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Outreach to Stakeholders 

Through its outreach efforts, OFCCP seeks to ensure input from stakeholders as it develops 

policies that are both practical and effective. Outreach is also undertaken to make sure that 

workers understand OFCCP is available as their resource. At both the national and local levels, 

OFCCP proactively reaches out to community-based groups, Veterans' Service Organizations 

(VSOs), labor unions, employer associations, civil rights leaders, contractors, subcontractors, and 

the workers directly affected by its protections. Indeed, I have made it a priority to meet with 

Veterans and other groups that are directly affected by OFCCP's programs. 

In FY 2011, OFCCP hosted more than 1,800 outreach events where more than 61,000 

stakeholders were engaged. Of these events, more than 140 outreach events engaged more than 

148 Veteran organizations around the country. A few examples include Veterans' jobs fairs with 

the Lone Star Veterans Association and Disabled American Veterans in Dallas; a faith-based 

event with the Veterans Employment Program of Catholic Charities in Chicago; monthly 

meetings with the Women Veterans Committee in Central Western New York State; a Veterans 

job matching and training event in Newport, RI; a Veterans Summit on "Building a VeteranFriendly Community" in Morgantown, WV; Veteran-focused community events or job fairs with 

Wounded Warriors groups in Jacksonville FL, Denver CO, Edison, NJ, and Hampton V A, 

among others; major community events with the Purple Heart Association in Albuquerque NM 

and the Native American Veterans' Association in San Diego CA; creation oflinkages between 

contractors and a wide variety of Veteran organizations such as the Navy Safe Harbor Wounded 

Warrior Program, Leave NO Veteran Behind, True North Project for Veterans Program of 

Volunteers of America, and Employer Support of the Guard and Reserve - Fort Dix, NJ. Other 

major Veteran organizations with which OFCCP offices held meetings or other events include 

AMVETS, the American Legion, Paralyzed Veterans of America, and the National Coalition for 

Homeless Veterans. 

In addition, nearly 1,000 of OFCCP' s outreach events provided contractors with compliance 

assistance to understand and comply with the laws OFCCP enforces. More than a third of those 

compliance assistance events were directed specifically at small businesses and first-time federal 

contractors. These events are free of charge and are offered via Webinars, trainings, and forums 

at regional and field offices across the country, as well as in individual consultations. There are 

no adverse consequences to contractors for participating in these events. 

Regulatory Proposals 

Over the last three years, OFCCP has recovered nearly $35 million in back wages and interest on 

behalf of over 70,000 workers affected by discrimination. It has audited more than 12,000 

businesses which employ almost seven million workers. While these are major 

accomplishments, workplace discrimination against protected Veterans, women, minorities, and 

people with disabilities is still a major problem. To increase the effectiveness of its efforts and 

those of contractors to eliminate such discrimination, OFCCP has recently issued several 

regulatory proposals, two of which are highlighted below. 

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Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on Contractors' Obligations With Respect to Employment 

Opportunities jor Protected Veterans under VEVRAA 

OFCCP's VEVRAA regulations have remained unchanged, in large measure, since the 

implementing rules were first published in 1976. While OFCCP has strived to enforce 

VEVRAA vigorously under the existing regulations, I believed that more could be done to 

improve the job opportunities for protected Veterans and ensure that the men and women who 

served our country are afforded their full rights and protections under VEVRAA. That is why, 

on April 26, 2011, OFCCP published a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking ("NPRM") to make 

historic revisions to its VEVRAA regulations. 

The proposed VEVRAA regulations would, for the first time, require contractors to measure the 

success of their efforts to recruit and hire protected Veterans. It is a simple rule of business that 

what gets measured gets done. Any successful company relies on data every day to track its 

performance and identify where it can do better. The proposed new data requirements would 

ensure that contractors have the data they need to measure their own performance in providing 

equal employment opportunity and to identify areas where they can do better. Businesses must 

be able to track their progress in hiring our nation's Veterans, just as they track sales, inventory, 

profits, or any other critical measure of success. 

New data requirements. Specifically, the VEVRAA NPRM proposed to require contractors to 

record and maintain quantitative data on their recruitment and hiring of protected Veterans, 

including, for each year, the number of protected Veterans that applied for positions with the 

contractor and the number of protected Veterans hired by the contractor. Currently, the only data 

about employment of protected Veterans that contractors must keep are those that must be 

reported on the VETS-J 00/1 OOA reports - the number of Veterans in each classification of 

"protected Veteran" employed and hired in each of J 0 broad job categories.4 The additional data 

required by the NPRM would give contractors and OFCCP important information that does not 

currently exist, and would help them evaluate and tailor their recruitment and outreach efforts. 

Annual Hiring Benchmarks. The NPRM would require contractors, for the first time, to establish 

an annual, aspirational, numerical benchmark for the employment of Veterans, to provide the 

contractor with a yardstick to use to measure progress in employing protected Veterans. When 

establishing benchmarks, contractors would be required to consider the percentage of Veterans in 

the civilian labor force in the State where the contractor is located and the number of Veterans 

who participated in the State's employment service delivery system. (OFCCP plans to make 

State Veteran participation intormation available on its website.) Contractors would also be 

permitted to consider other factors, such as the nature of the job openings and their location, 

which might tend to affect the availability of qualified protected Veterans. 

4 It is true that the numbers of protected Veterans hired by the contractor in a year are reported on the VETS10011 OOA reports. But because these reports require reporting by category of protected Veteran (e.g., disabled; 

separated from the service for less than three years), and because some Veterans fall into more than one category, 

the VETS-J 00/1 OOA reports can double-, triple-, or even quadruple-count the number of protected Veterans 

employed by federal contractors. 

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The NPRM also proposes requiring contractors to cvaluate the effectiveness of their efforts to 

ensure that protected Veterans have access to employment opportunities. The newly required 

data would help contractors do this. 

It is crucial to note that the goals that would be required by the NPRM are not quotas. They are 

benchmarks, designed to provide contractors with quantitative standards by which to measure 

their progress -- standards that are less ambiguous than current requirements which simply call 

on contractors to make "good faith" efforts to hire Veterans. Importantly, OFCCP would not 

consider a contractor's failure to meet the benchmark, in and of itself, a violation ofVEVRAA. 

Self-identification. A key provision of the NPRM would require contractors to invite applicants 

voluntarily to self-identify as protected Veterans at the pre-offer stage of the hiring process, in 

addition to the post-offer self-identification currently required by the regulation. As proposed, 

prior to an offer of employment, the contractor would be required to invite all applicants for 

employment voluntarily to self-identify as a "protected Veteran." After the contractor makes an 

offer of employment, it would be required to invite the applicant to self-identify, again 

voluntarily, as a member of one or more of the specific classifications of protected Veterans 

covered under VEVRAA. These proposed changes would allow the contractor to collect 

enhanced applicant data regarding protected Veterans that is not currently collected. This, in 

tum, allows the contractor and OFCCP to better identify and monitor the contractor's 

employment practices with respect to protected Veterans. 

Other provisions o[the NPRM Other elements of the NPRM include: 

• detailing mandatory actions by contractors in the areas of recruitment, employee training, 

and the dissemination of their affirmative action policies; 

• clarifying when electronic posting of employee rights and contractor obligations is 

permissible and when it is required; 

• updating how compliance evaluations are conducted; 

• clarifying OFCCP's existing mandatory job listing requirement to state that contractors 

must provide job vacancy information to the appropriate employment service in the 

manner and format the employment service needs it in order to include the job in their 

database; and 

• requiring contractors to inform state employment services of their status as a federal 

contractor, request priority referrals of protected Veterans for job openings at each 

location in the state, and provide the contact information for the hiring official at each 

location in the state and for any outside job search companies that assist the contractor 

with hiring. 

Prior to issuing the NPRM, OFCCP gathered input from various stakeholders, including the 

contractor community, state employment agencies, Veteran organizations, and other interested 

parties, via town hall meetings, webinars and listening sessions. OFCCP is carefully reviewing 

the over 100 comments received on the NPRM. 

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Æ 

Notice 0/ Proposed Rulemaking on Contractors' Obligations With Respect to Employment 

Opportunities/or People with Disabilities under Section 503 

Similarly, on December 9,2011, OFCCP published an NPRM to strengthen affirmative action 

obligations with respect to employment opportunities for people with disabilities under Section 

503. Like the VEVRAA NPRM, the Section 503 NPRM proposes specific actions contractors 

would be required to take in the areas of recruitment, training, recordkeeping and policy 

dissemination. The proposed rule would establish, for the first time, a single, national utilization 

goal for individuals with disabilities: contractors would be required to set an aspirational goal of 

having 7 percent of their employees be workers with disabilities in each job group of the 

contractors' workforce. Like the benchmarks proposed in the VEVRAA NPRM, this goal is not 

a quota; rather, it would be a tool to help contractors evaluate thc effectiveness of their 

recruitment efforts towards workers with disabilities. The proposed rule also would improve 

collection of data on the employment of people with disabilities by requiring contractors to invite 

applicants to voluntarily self-identify as an "individual with a disability" at the pre-offer stage of 

the hiring process, to invite post-offer voluntary self-identification, and to survey all employees 

annually to invite their self-identification. 

OFCCP received over 400 comments on the Section 503 NPRM and is carefully reviewing these 

comments. 

Conclusion 

Our Veterans are among our nation's greatest resources. The United States has the most talented, 

most iunovative, and most hard-working people in the world, and they are the engine of our 

economic recovery. That is why the Department of Labor is committed to ensuring that 

Veterans, transitioning Service Members, and other American workers have the opportunities 

and working conditions that will allow them and their employers to flourish. 

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