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21–824 PDF 2005

S. Hrg. 109–113

NOMINATION OF HON. LINDA M. COMBS

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE

ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

ON THE

NOMINATION OF HON. LINDA M. COMBS, TO BE CONTROLLER, OFFICE 

OF FEDERAL FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT, OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT 

AND BUDGET

MAY 25, 2005

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs

(

(II)

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine, Chairman 

TED STEVENS, Alaska 

GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio 

NORM COLEMAN, Minnesota 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

LINCOLN D. CHAFEE, Rhode Island 

ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah 

PETE V. DOMENICI, New Mexico 

JOHN W. WARNER, Virginia 

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

MARK DAYTON, Minnesota 

FRANK LAUTENBERG, New Jersey 

MARK PRYOR, Arkansas

MICHAEL D. BOPP, Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

JENNIFER A. HEMINGWAY, Professional Staff Member 

JOYCE A. RECHTSCHAFFEN, Minority Staff Director and Counsel 

ADAM R. SEDGEWICK, Minority Professional Staff Member 

TRINA D. TYRER, Chief Clerk 

(III)

C O N T E N T S 

Opening statements: Page 

Senator Coburn ................................................................................................. 1

Senator Lautenberg .......................................................................................... 6

Senator Carper ................................................................................................. 7

WITNESS 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 25, 2005

Hon. Linda M. Combs, to be Controller, Office of Federal Financial Management, Office of Management and Budget: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 3

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 15

Biographical and financial information .......................................................... 17

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 28

APPENDIX 

Senator Burr, prepared statement ......................................................................... 2

Senator Dole, prepared statement .......................................................................... 2

(1)

NOMINATION OF HON. LINDA M. COMBS 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 25, 2005

U.S. SENATE, 

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:31 p.m., in room 

SD–562, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Tom Coburn, presiding. 

Present: Senators Coburn, Carper, and Lautenberg. 

Senator COBURN. The hearing will come to order. Good afternoon. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR COBURN 

Senator COBURN. The purpose of today’s hearing is to consider 

Linda M. Combs to be Controller, Office of Federal Financial Management, Office of Management and Budget. It is the responsibility 

of the Controller to carry out the financial management policy of 

the Federal Government. I believe this is a key position in government because the Controller is one of the primary Federal officials 

responsible for ensuring that taxpayers’ dollars are being spent 

wisely. 

It is my hope that under Ms. Combs’ leadership government 

spending practices will become much more transparent and much 

more accountable. Furthermore, I am confident that she will make 

every effort to reduce waste, fraud and abuse and mismanagement 

throughout the Federal Government. 

President Bush nominated Ms. Combs for this position because 

she possesses the experience, training and motivation to oversee 

the U.S. Government’s financial management practices. Given that 

Ms. Combs has extensive experience working in the Federal Government in numerous departments where she had oversight authority for financial management and the budget, I believe this 

makes her a very credible choice to be the next Controller. 

I would like to say that both Senator Dole and Senator Burr from 

your home State send their best wishes. Senator Burr actually 

came to me and apologized that he could not be here to introduce 

you. They both send their best wishes and regrets that they could 

not be here today. They both have submitted written statements 

for the support of your confirmation that will be entered into the 

record, and there is no objection to that. 

[The prepared statements of Senators Dole and Burr follow:]

2

PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR DOLE 

It is with great pleasure that I introduce Dr. Linda M. combs, who has been appointed by President George W. Bush to be Controller for the Office of Management 

and Budget (OMB). I am honored and pleased to give my support for the appointment of Dr. Combs, who is a fine North Carolinian. I am very confident that she 

is well qualified for this important position, which is responsible for financial management of the Federal Government. 

If confirmed as OMB Controller, Dr. Combs will be responsible for leading the Office of Federal Financial Management and will provide government-wide leadership 

for strengthening financial management in Federal agencies and programs. The 

Controller will lead the Improved Financial Performance Initiative for the President’s Management Agenda, which focuses on bettering the quality and timeliness 

of Federal financial information. I am confident that Dr. Combs possesses the critical leadership skills needed to succeed in this position. 

Dr. Linda Combs currently serves as the Assistant Secretary for Budget and Programs and Chief Financial Officer of the Department of Transportation (DOT). In 

this role, she has significant experience with oversight and management of all budgetary functions for the Department of Transportation. Dr. Combs was responsible 

for oversight of the Department of Transportation’s $57 billion appropriation, the 

government Performance and Results Act, as well as general monitoring of programs. During her tenure as Assistant Secretary, the Department of Transportation 

was the first Cabinet level Department to achieve four coveted ‘‘green’’ scores on the 

President’s Management Agenda. 

Prior to her appointment to the Department of Transportation, Dr. Combs served 

as Chief Financial of the Environmental Protection Agency from 2001 to 2003. She 

has been successful in various oversight roles and executive level management positions at the Departments of Education, Veterans Affairs, and Treasury, where she 

has garnered years of experience and management skills, which further qualify her 

for this appointment. 

Dr. Combs is a well-respected and valued member of the North Carolina family. 

She served more than 10 years in the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County school system. 

Dr. Combs earned an Associate of the Arts degree at Gardner-Webb University, 

Bachelor of Science and Masters degrees from Appalachian State University, and a 

Doctorate in Education Administration from Virginia Polytechnic Institute and 

State University. She is also a graduate of the Program for Senior Managers in Government at Harvard University. 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR BURR 

Mr. Chairman, it is an honor to introduce to you Linda Combs of North Carolina, 

nominated to be the next Controller of the Office of Federal Financial Management 

at the Office of Management and Budget. 

A resident of my hometown of Winston-Salem, N.C., I know that Linda will continue to serve this President with honor and distinction, in the same manner that 

she has loyally served her community. 

Linda has been the president of Combs Music International in Winston-Salem and 

has served on various boards since 1991. She is also a former member of the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of Education. 

At the U.S. Department of Education, she was the Executive Secretary from 1982 

to 1984 and the Deputy Under Secretary for Management from 1984 to 1986. 

From 1986 to1987, Ms. Combs returned to the great state of North Carolina to 

serve Governor James Martin as an advisor. 

From 1987 to 1989, she was Associate Administrator for Management at the Department of Veterans Affairs and from 1989 to 1991 she served at the U.S. Department of the Treasury, as Assistant Secretary for Management, and on the President’s Council for Management Improvement. 

Beginning in 1990, she concurrently held the position of Chief Financial Officer 

of the Department of the Treasury. 

She previously was CFO at the Environmental Protection Agency and during 

President George H.W. Bush’s administration was Assistant Secretary for Management and CFO at the Treasury Department. 

Most recently, Ms. Combs served as the CFO and Assistant Secretary of Transportation for Budget and Programs. 

Throughout her career, Linda has won several awards. She was the recipient of 

the Department of Education Secretary’s Citation and the Exceptional Service 

Awards at the Department of the Treasury and the Department of Veterans Affairs. 

3

1The prepared statement of Ms. Combs appears in the Appendix on page 15. 

Ms. Combs holds a bachelor’s and a master’s degree from Appalachian State University and a doctorate degree from Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, and chairs the Board of Directors of the Appalachian State University Foundation. 

I have no doubt that Ms. Combs will prove to be an asset to the Office of Management and Budget.

Senator COBURN. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, this 

nominee has an impressive resume that will prepare her well for 

this important position. Linda Morrison Combs has filed responses 

to biographical and financial questionnaires, answered pre-hearing 

questions submitted by the Committee, and had her financial statements reviewed by the office of Government Ethics. Without objection, this information will be made part of the hearing and, with 

the exception of the financial data that are on file and available for 

public inspection in the Committee’s offices. 

Our Committee rules require that all witnesses at nominations 

hearings give their testimony under oath. Ms. Combs, at this time 

if you would, please stand and raise your right hand. 

Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give is the 

truth, the whole truth, so help you, God? 

Ms. COMBS. I do. 

Senator COBURN. Ms. Combs, I understand that you have family 

members present that you might want to introduce. Please feel free 

to do that. 

Ms. COMBS. Yes, I do. Senator Coburn, I would like to introduce 

my husband, David M. Combs. 

Senator COBURN. David, welcome. I bet you are proud. We welcome you to this hearing today and I would ask that you proceed 

with your opening statement at this time. 

TESTIMONY OF HON. LINDA M. COMBS,1 TO BE CONTROLLER, 

OFFICE OF FEDERAL FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT, OFFICE OF 

MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET 

Ms. COMBS. Thank you, Senator Coburn and Members of the 

Committee. I really appreciate the opportunity to appear before you 

today as you consider my nomination for the position of Controller 

of the Office of Management and Budget within the Executive Office of the President. 

It is an honor to be here and I am privileged to have been nominated by President Bush to this post. 

As you mentioned, Senator Coburn, given the specific duties and 

responsibilities under the Chief Financial Officers Act of 1990, the 

OMB Controller position is an especially important one in the Federal Government today. 

If confirmed it will indeed be my goal to carry out those responsibilities and to continue the work and the efforts that are underway to achieve the most meaningful results in Federal financial 

management and performance throughout government. 

I look forward to working with you and other Members of the 

Committee as we find solutions that may not have been thought 

about to date. 

In each of my previous positions in the Federal Government, I 

have been guided by one singular overriding principle, that public 

4

service is indeed a public trust. So I pledge to you and to my fellow 

Americans today my continued commitment to upholding these 

high standards of honesty, fairness and integrity. The American 

people deserve no less from those of us who are very fortunate to 

be able to serve in such honored positions. 

I thank you, Senator Coburn, for the great opportunity to appear 

before you today and I look forward to answering any questions 

you or any other Members of the Committee may have. And in deference to your time and the time of this Committee, I ask that the 

remainder of my statement that was presented to the Committee 

be presented in its entirety and entered into the record. 

Senator COBURN. It will be, without objection. 

Ms. Combs, I have some questions, some are boilerplate that we 

will go through, and then I have some very specific questions for 

you. 

Is there anything you are aware of in your background which 

might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office to 

which you have been nominated? 

Ms. COMBS. No, sir. 

Senator COBURN. Do you know of anything, personal or otherwise, that would in any way prevent you from fully and honorably 

discharging the responsibilities of the office to which you have been 

nominated? 

Ms. COMBS. No, sir. 

Senator COBURN. Do you agree without reservation to respond to 

any reasonable summons to appear and testify before any duly constituted committee of Congress if you are confirmed? 

Ms. COMBS. Yes, sir. 

Senator COBURN. We will start with specific questions and since 

I get to have the Chair, as well as be the only person here at the 

present time, I have several questions that I would like to ask you. 

Tell me what your top priorities will be if you are confirmed as 

Controller of the Federal Financial Management at OMB? 

Ms. COMBS. Senator Coburn, my absolute top priority is to bring 

first-class financial management to the entire Federal Government. 

I think that there are many opportunities where we have to increase our fiscal accountability and discipline. As you and I had the 

opportunity to discuss this morning, I have been blessed to serve 

in a number of other departments and agencies. And I hope to help 

other departments and agencies throughout government be able to 

do some of the things that we were able to do in some of the other 

departments, as well. 

Senator COBURN. I am very happy to see that the Ranking Member of the Federal Financial Management, Government Information, and International Security Subcommittee, Senator Carper, 

has joined us. If you would care to make an opening statement, we 

would love to have that now. 

Senator CARPER. I do not have an opening statement at this 

time, but what I would welcome is the opportunity to ask some 

questions of our witness. I welcome her today. Thank you. 

Ms. COMBS. Thank you, Senator. 

Senator COBURN. I will finish my first round and then we will 

go to you, if that is OK. 

5

Tell me your thoughts about the termination of the Joint Financial Management Improvement Program. 

Ms. COMBS. The Joint Financial Management Improvement Program, as I understand it, the principles are still in place with the 

JFMIP and will meet and discuss various matters that need to 

come before the Committee. 

I also understand that I have not had an opportunity to fully explore that. And if given the honor of confirmation, I will certainly 

commit to explore the entire transition that took place, which I believe was in December 2004. 

Senator COBURN. You and I have discussed, as a matter of fact 

this morning, on transparency in the Federal Government. Several 

people have questioned, with the elimination of the Joint Financial 

Management Improvement Program, that transparency might be 

less rather than better. And their concern is how do we, as citizens, 

know what the government is doing without transparency and 

without accountability? 

I can tell you in Subcommittee hearings that Senator Carper and 

I have both already had, in terms of getting transparency just from 

USAID, the last information we can get from them on a malaria 

program is 2001. That is unacceptable here. Presently, I am having 

difficulty getting the Corps of Engineers to give us a budget. 

The fact is that any good management system has that out there. 

It is the public information, it cannot be guarded. And when it is 

guarded and it is guarded inappropriately, that raises red flags in 

Congress, I assure you. 

I just would wonder how you would respond. How are we going 

to get to the point where you can get online and you can find out 

what every section, every action, other than intelligence and maybe 

certain areas of the military, how they are spending taxpayers 

money? 

Ms. COMBS. As you know from our brief conversation this morning, we both are indeed committed to transparency. It is quite ironic that in our audience today I was chatting with some folks who 

just happened to be here from the State of California. And I was 

able to talk with them for just a few moments about some of the 

things that we are doing in results.gov. 

We are moving forward in terms of transparency and I certainly 

am committed to any transparency that will not only show the 

American people, our fellow taxpayers, and us exactly what the results are of what we are doing in the Federal Government. 

I have that major commitment, along with you, and look forward 

to working with you and your staff to answer the specific problems 

that you have encountered as well as a more overall transparency 

situation. 

Senator COBURN. When an improper payment should occur, what 

are the steps adopted to attempt recovery of such sums? 

Ms. COMBS. There are a couple of steps here and I really look forward to working with you and the Committee on this because this 

is really—it was a hot button for me when I first came back into 

government in 2001 after being out for 10 years. 

One of the things I realize that if we can avoid making those 

payments to begin with, that is a good first step. We had put that 

out through the offices at EPA. And I am pleased to report to you 

6

that not only are there some individual circumstances that I could 

cite to you of how payments were not made in error because of controls and measures that we put in place, but because of sensitivities that we engaged the workforce in. 

A lot of consolidation was done relative to where the payments 

are made and how they are made. And I have some wonderful stories that I would love to share with you and your staff about how 

these improper payments were avoided to begin with. 

At EPA the actual improper payments rate today is less than 0.5 

percent. And I say to you that is one, because of commitment of a 

great workforce that we engaged and we engaged properly, putting 

wonderful controls in place. Obviously, it does not happen 100 percent of the time. We have less than 1 percent, but still that is more 

than we need to have. 

So the one thing you can do following that is to engage companies to come in who will do an assessment of these improper payments. And they will do it based on how much they recover. They 

are called recovery audits. I actually checked up on some of the recovery audits as I was preparing to come and talk with you folks 

today. And I learned from EPA that they had a recovery audit even 

on that 0.5 percent. There is no reason we cannot do that in every 

department and agency and have that commitment. 

Senator COBURN. Thank you. My time is expired. 

I welcome Senator Lautenberg, and if you have an opening statement, now would be a great time. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LAUTENBERG 

Senator LAUTENBERG. I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman and I am 

delighted to have a chance to be here to take a few minutes to talk 

about Ms. Combs and the position that she is going to assume. And 

obviously, we welcome her here. 

The position for which you have been nominated, Controller for 

the Office of Federal Financial Management, is obviously very important. And we make that statement based on some of the experiences that we see, unfortunately, on a continuing basis. 

The office is responsible for establishing government-wide financial management policies of executive agencies government-wide. 

Now I have spent a fair amount of time in the business world before I came here and financial management was a big part of our 

business. You try to watch everything that you can. There are 

things, no matter how careful one might be, no matter how intricate or appropriate the system is, the fact of the matter is that 

there is a part science in the financial management. The critical incidents review is when there are things that you look for that trigger further review or expansion. 

What I see happening and what I have seen happening is that 

in some parts the errors or the waste is of major magnitude. Again, 

I do not believe that in an organization the size of our government 

that we can ever get down to the last nickel and dime. You forego 

that. 

But the Defense Department gives out contracts and they are not 

adequately examined by Congress or the Executive Branch, in my 

view, and I am talking particularly about Halliburton’s contract in 

7

Iraq. Halliburton was awarded a no-bid contract worth $2.5 billion 

and a cost-plus contract worth more than $7 billion. 

Now both of these contracts have been riven with waste, fraud, 

and abuse, to use the common term. A typical example is Halliburton, in overcharging the government by $1.09 a gallon for 57 

million gallons of gasoline. Other incidents, they paid $45 for cases of soda that super- markets sell for $7. And we are talking about huge numbers. 

In response to this charge, Army auditors recommended that 

Halliburton be punished. They said DOD should withhold 15 percent of future payments to offset these overcharges. But instead of 

administering punishment to Halliburton, the Pentagon rewarded 

it with $72 million in bonuses. 

Now that is giving the fox in the chicken coop some more hens 

for a dish. And I find it inexplicable. I think the policies and procedures that allowed it to happen need severe scrutiny and review. 

And Dr. Combs, I think it is essential that in this new position 

that you do that. I would like to explore it more specifically but it 

is fair to say that we need to really crack the whip on DOD here 

and demand some accountability. 

And finally, Mr. Chairman, we know that Senator Voinovich is 

doing some excellent work in his Subcommittee to take a close look 

at DOD’s business practice and I know that he will continue to 

work diligently, as we should here. And I commend you for doing 

this. 

When we get to questions, I have a few questions. 

Senator COBURN. I want to assure the Senator that we are going 

to look at every nook and cranny on our Subcommittee. Senator 

Carper and I, we are going to work joined at the hip to do that. 

I might note for the record that we had testimony from General Walker that the Pentagon has a 10 percent mispayment rate, $5 

billion that they did not pay for and $35 billion that they paid for 

that they should not have. So we have a lot of work to do at the 

Pentagon in terms of cleaning up this mess. I will assure you that 

we will do that. 

I would like to recognize Senator Carper now. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CARPER 

Senator CARPER. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask 

unanimous consent that my statement be submitted for the record. 

Senator COBURN. Without objection. 

[The prepared statement of Senator Carper follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR CARPER 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have before us today a very important nomination. 

Financial management has hardly been one of the Federal Government’s strengths, 

unfortunately. According to the Office of Management and Budget’s latest scorecard, 

while progress is being made, most agencies continue to receive failing grades for 

financial performance. 

This is probably the major reason why we’ve been unable to get a clean audit 

opinion on the Federal Government’s combined financial statement for some time 

now. Many people probably read about this and other Federal financial management 

problems in the paper, Mr. Chairman, and shrug our shoulders and move on. I 

think most of our constituents assume that the Federal Government isn’t a good 

steward of their tax dollars and believe little can be done about it. 

I believe we can do better. We need to do better. Poor financial management has 

a real impact on the Federal budget. It also leads to waste and, a time when the 

8

budget deficit is rising and every dollar is precious, cheats worthy programs of 

much-needed funding that could be used to help people. 

I was shocked to learn at a recent hearing Senator Coburn and I held on the 

President’s Management Agenda that the Federal Government makes about $45 billion in improper payments each year. We just can’t afford to allow management 

weaknesses to be such a drain on resources. 

I believe Linda Combs recognizes this. She has a distinguished record of service 

at a number of agencies. This includes her recent service as Chief Financial Officer 

at both the Environmental Protection Agency and the Department of Transportation. I’ve had the pleasure of meeting with Ms. Combs one-on-one and look forward to hearing some more today about her qualifications and her views on how 

we can continue to improve financial management across the Federal Government.

Senator CARPER. Thank you, sir. 

Ms. Combs welcome and thank you for being here. 

You look at the size of the audience and we have had more people in this Committee hearing room in other instances. Sometimes 

it is when there is controversy. So when you look around and you 

do not see a packed house, it might actually be a good sign rather 

than a bad one. 

What I would like to do today is, first of all, just ask you what 

do you think, what kind of skills, attributes should we be looking 

for and should the President be looking for in filling this position? 

Ms. COMBS. I think the skills that are necessary to be a Controller are twofold. One, a commitment to honesty and integrity, a 

commitment to instilling in every other CFO the idea that we 

truly, as a Federal Government, can be a first-class financial institution. We do not have to continue to look at situations that persist 

in various departments and say I do not think we can do anything 

about that. 

I think we have to instill and change the culture and change the 

attitudes of our fellow legislative people, as well as our Executive 

Branch folks, and work together and have a tremendous commitment to doing something that has not been done before. 

And I think the commitment is the number one priority. 

The number two priority, I think, of a controller or a CFO in any 

of these other departments and agencies is to garner the respect 

for controls and fiduciary responsibilities and make sure that everyone who works in those departments and agencies believes that 

part of their responsibility is financial and fiduciary, not just programmatic. 

I think if we could start there with a great elevation of thought 

and ideas and vision, I think we could achieve a whole lot. And I 

am really looking forward, assuming I am confirmed, to being able 

to do that. 

Senator CARPER. Given the criteria you have laid out, how do you 

measure up to those standards in terms of what we are looking for? 

And I admire modesty but this is not a time to be modest. 

Ms. COMBS. I think standards are very important. They are very 

critical. And one of the things that I have done, particularly in the 

last two positions, the two CFO positions I have held in this Administration, is put a number of metrics out there that we hold 

people accountable for in the departments and agencies in which 

I have served. 

I actually worked as a subcommittee chair on the Chief Financial 

Officers Council, as well, to put into play eight financial metrics 

across government. We CFOs got together and we decided there 

9

were certain metrics that every departmental CFO needed to have 

that would show that they were doing a good job managing their 

finances. And they were very rudimentary for many of us who 

worked in a banking industry or other industries like that in the 

past. Yes, they were rudimentary. Are you balancing your books on 

time? And I would love to share those with you at a later date. 

But they do wonders for pulling the organization together into a 

way of saying, hey, these are things we can agree upon, that everybody in this department has responsibility for these particular 

areas. So whether your responsibility is in a program or whether 

it is in a financial office, you have responsibility for finances as 

well. 

Senator CARPER. In talking with others about you, I heard from 

them that you have very good financial skills. They have also 

talked about your remarkable skills in mathematics. I was just 

wondering what might be the genesis of your interest in mathematics and your understanding and your facility with mathematics? 

Ms. COMBS. Thank you, Senator. Unbeknownst to probably a couple of other Members on the Committee, when Senator Carper and 

I met, we realized that Senator Carper’s father-in-law, Dr. Starr N. 

Stacy, Jr., taught me math at Appalachian State University, and 

specifically probability. And he was a most inspiring teacher, and 

a most inspiring leader. 

And even though I went into education after that, I have always 

come back to many of the things that he taught me. He was such 

an inspiring person. And after our visit, I actually went back and 

looked him up in the annual. And yes, he was exactly as I remembered how he looked, and I was able to share my thoughts with 

your wife. 

Senator CARPER. I was pleased to share with my wife the kind 

words you had to say about her father. She thinks that she has 

grown up to be just like him. And she is my teacher too, in a lot 

of ways. 

Senator LAUTENBERG. You inherited this from your father-in-law. 

Senator CARPER. I suppose. I do not know. 

A more serious question. You mentioned financial officers and 

CFOs. You served in government, both before and after the passage 

of the 1990 Chief Financial Officers Act. I just wondered if you 

could share with us what impact you think those reforms have had 

that were included in the bill, and also in the President’s Management Agenda? And how have you seen it impact on our Federal financial performance? 

Ms. COMBS. I think the President’s Management Agenda has 

done an awful lot to pull departments and agencies together and 

to focus on four or five discrete elements that we can all agree are 

the things we are going to work hard on. And I am pleased one of 

these is financial management, of course. That has done a great 

deal to bring a focal point to where we all want to go in this Administration. 

The CFO Act itself, since it was passed in 1990, and yes, I was 

the first CFO at the Department of Treasury at the time. And it 

was a watershed moment. And one of the things that I have done 

after coming back into government in 2001 after a 9 or 10 year hiaVerDate 0ct 09 2002 10:12 Sep 08, 2005 Jkt 021824 PO 00000 Frm 00013 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 C:\DOCS\21824.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PHOGAN
10

tus between 1991 and when I came back in 2001, is to look at the 

differences. What are the things that have happened? Well, there 

was other additional legislation also that was passed in the 1990’s. 

But, when I came back to EPA and looked at the CFO Act of 

1990, I did just what you suggested. What has changed? What has 

made a difference? 

One of the things that, in reading the CFO Act and rereading it 

again, you realize the people who worked on that at the time really 

had a great command for what could and should be done in Federal 

departments and agencies. And even now, I have looked at the tenets of the CFO Act and have used those to formulate some of the 

things that I put into place, both at EPA and at the Department 

of Transportation, in terms of holding people accountable for their 

financial duties, and putting financial people in place. The CFO Act 

gives CFOs a tremendous responsibility for seeing that the right 

people are in the other subsidiary CFO positions within the departments and agencies as well. 

It is up to a good CFO to decide what kind of people you need 

in those specific fiduciary roles; to put the processes in place that 

you need to put in place and hold people accountable; and to put 

the tools in place, whether it is new IT tools or whether it is other 

mechanisms that will help you manage an organization better. 

Each one of the tenets of the CFO Act spells out in great detail 

how that can be done. And I think taking it very seriously and honoring the Act, in and of itself, both in the spirit as well as the actual concept of the law, gives CFOs and the Controller a great deal 

of latitude and responsibility. 

Senator CARPER. Thank you. 

Senator COBURN. Senator Lautenberg. 

Senator LAUTENBERG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

If you saw me smiling when you heard Senator Carper ask you 

the questions about what qualities you think should be there for 

someone in this position, I once asked a nominee for a District 

Court judgeship about that. And I said what qualities do you think 

we ought to be looking for in someone sitting on the bench. And 

he said all the ones I have got. 

On the very serious side of things, Sarbanes-Oxley, we will not 

argue how it got started and the necessity of it. But to me, and I 

came out of the business world and ran a pretty good-sized company, the one thing that I saw that threaded through the whole notion of establishing the law was that it was to say to companies, 

tell the truth. Tell the truth. 

And the chief executive now, I think in most cases, has to sign 

off on the financial statement. And I think it should be that way. 

And again, I am not defending the law. But what I am defending 

is the notion that people have to tell the truth. 

In government it is a particularly tortuous proposition because 

there are so many people involved, departments involved, and so 

forth. 

But I assume that you are aware, Dr. Combs, of the fact that 

contracting abuses have taken place in Iraq. 

Ms. COMBS. I have read quite a bit about it, as you have, in the 

media. 

11

Senator LAUTENBERG. Do you think some of that again, and this 

may be pointed, but I think as they say if the shoe fits, that nobid contracts are appropriate unless it is a dire emergency? Do you 

think that you can control things well if you give a contract out 

with no bid, no indication some other company might be able to do 

it better? 

Ms. COMBS. I think there are a lot of avenues that we have to 

explore in contractual management. You mentioned the skills a moment ago of people in specific jobs. Obviously people who have contractual responsibilities need to know what the vehicles are and to 

work through them in an appropriate way. 

But the one skill that absolutely must be in all of these roles and 

responsibilities is the ability to manage large contracts such as 

that. So that is something that I would certainly need to take a 

look at from a policy perspective. 

Senator LAUTENBERG. I would urge you to do it because if we 

know A, where we are going; and B, how we get there, and that 

is the best way to find out things is competitively. If there is no 

one else to do the work, then the choices are limited. But if there 

are other people who can do the same work—and another question, 

in terms of financial structuring, the cost-plus contracts. 

There were instances, and we have had whistleblowers testify 

and lots of sources of information, about the total abandonment of 

care and caution and in spending because it has been said, according to testimony that we had, that people would say do not worry 

about it, throw perfectly good things away. We are going to get 

paid for it. There was talk even of abandonment of vehicles because 

the truck was stuck with a flat tire, an $80,000 vehicle. Just forget 

about it and go. 

On these LOGCAP contracts, there has to be some mechanism to 

say it is cost-plus but the cost has to first be verifiable and worry 

about the plus at a later time. 

Will you have a chance to review the policies that led to Halliburton being paid bonuses despite findings that it overcharged the 

government? And again, the findings were released by the Department of Defense, that said you have overcharged us $60 million for 

the gasoline and we are going to take it back. And then there was 

apparently other information that came back and said no, we 

should not take it back. 

I would appreciate it if you could make a commitment here that 

you will review the policies that led to Halliburton being paid bonuses despite findings that it overcharged the government. Is that 

something you can commit to? 

Ms. COMBS. Senator Lautenberg, I think my overriding responsibility here is certainly to see that the dollars of every taxpayer are 

monitored and looked at appropriately. I see this as an over-encompassing role. I see that every taxpayer’s dollar needs to be spent 

appropriately. And I am making a commitment to go into that. 

Senator LAUTENBERG. I would ask you to review the past so that 

we, as is said, can look at the future with a little more experience 

to throw into our judgment. 

Ms. COMBS. Thank you. 

Senator LAUTENBERG. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. 

12

Senator COBURN. Thank you, Senator Lautenberg. Let me follow 

up on Senator Lautenberg’s questions. 

Is there a policy within the Federal Government now on cost-plus 

bids or no-bid contracts, where they will have post-purchase review? 

Ms. COMBS. Senator Coburn, I do not know the answer to that, 

but I will commit to finding that out. 

Senator COBURN. Would you get the answer to that for this Committee? And if there is not, there certainly should be, because just 

the thought of a post-contract review will change a lot of behavior. 

Ms. COMBS. Yes. 

Senator COBURN. As I know you are aware, OMB has not succeeded in implementing the President’s Management Agenda initiative. In fact, OMB has the worst performance of the 24 agencies 

included in the last scorecard. OMB’s Deputy Director for Management, Clay Johnson, indicated that OMB is having particular difficulty improving its financial performance because it is tied to the 

Executive Office of the President, which is not required to have an 

annual financial statement audit. 

I would appreciate it if you would provide the Committee with 

an explanation as to why the Executive Office of the President is 

not subject to the requirement for an annual financial statement 

audit? And is there any way to separate out the different organizations within the Executive Office of the President so they can be 

scrutinized? 

Ms. COMBS. I will be more than happy to look into that and work 

with you and provide what you need on that. 

Senator COBURN. And then my final questions really have to do 

with credit card purchases. We have seen a lot with that. How can 

we best restrain open-ended spending by employees using government purchasing cards? And what steps can we take to reduce the 

purchase card program’s vulnerability to wasteful, improper and 

questionable purchases? 

Ms. COMBS. That was something, as well, that I worked very 

hard on, both at the EPA as well as the Department of Transportation, and was able to make a lot of headway in reducing those 

numbers that we had presented. We had a number of problems 

with those when I went into both of those organizations. And now 

I am pleased to say that their numbers are some of the best in government. 

So I have a very strong commitment for that and it is actually 

one of the metrics that we look at government-wide. 

Senator COBURN. You are talking about re-creating reimbursement concepts for employees expenditures; is that correct? 

Ms. COMBS. Yes. 

Senator COBURN. Senator Carper. 

Senator CARPER. I just want to revisit briefly an area we have 

already had some discussion on and it is the Department of Defense. We were led to believe, I think GAO noted in January in 

their high risk update, that tangible evidence of improvement in 

DOD’s financial management can only be seen in a few areas. 

Given how much money we are spending in defense—in fact, I 

understand we spend more on defense now than the rest of the 

world combined. That is a lot of money. And in any big organizaVerDate 0ct 09 2002 10:12 Sep 08, 2005 Jkt 021824 PO 00000 Frm 00016 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 C:\DOCS\21824.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PHOGAN
13

tion there is opportunities to spend money poorly, wastefully, and 

so forth. My guess is the same is obviously true in the Department 

of Defense. 

Any thoughts that you might have beyond what you have already 

said, or just to reiterate what you have already said, in what we 

might do to help clean up DOD’s books? I know you have served 

well at EPA and DOT and elsewhere. Just talk about some of the 

things again that could be applied from your previous experience 

and what we could apply at DOD. 

Ms. COMBS. I think one of the things that we must do, DOD is 

a very complex organization, I do not need to tell you that. We all 

understand that. 

But any time you have a complex problem, whether it is in life 

or whether it is in finances, it has to be broken down into manageable parts. And broken down in such a way that you have a committed group of people working on each piece of it, so that you 

come together at the end and you have exactly what you envision, 

clean audits, no material weaknesses and many of those things 

that we have talked about and are committed to. 

And I think without us working together and coming up with 

those solutions, and working with the Department of Defense, that 

probably is not going to happen or going to happen in our lifetimes 

or in our tenure. 

But what I would like to do is to work with the Committee and 

to continue the work that we would normally be doing from OMB 

with DOD and work toward a great solution. And maybe it is not 

time driven. A lot of times we get hung up on when is it going to 

happen? Maybe there is another creative solution that we have not 

thought about. Maybe there is some percentages of work that we 

could be pleased with if they get to a certain percentage point. 

I do not know what it is, but I am certainly more than willing 

to commit to work with the Committee. 

Senator CARPER. Thanks very much. 

Senator Coburn and I bring to these two positions a commitment 

to doing what we can to ratchet down the Federal budget deficit. 

It is alarming to me and I know it is to him and I suspect everyone 

in this room, that our budget deficit is so high. We know that in 

some cases we are spending money that we do not have. In other 

cases, we are spending money for things that are inappropriate or 

may be unlawful. In other cases, monies that should be collected 

as revenues are not being collected. 

We are determined to do what we can with this little Subcommittee of ours to try to make progress in all of those areas. 

We have spoken with the Comptroller General, David Walker, to 

enlist his cooperation and to see how we might partner with GAO. 

I would not pretend to speak for both of us, but I would welcome 

a similar kind of partnership with you and the folks that you’re 

going to be leading. We wish you well. 

Thank you for returning to government service, the service of our 

people. And good luck. 

Senator COBURN. Thank you, Senator Carper. 

My staff advises the IG at VA has recommended pre- and postaudits for contacting at the VA. So you might want to look at that. 

14

One other question. I just want to get a commitment for this 

Committee from you that as we seek to find out what we need to 

know to help you do your job that you will be a conduit for us for 

assisting us in finding the numbers. The most frustrating thing for 

me is to ask an agency for their numbers and, first of all, be told 

you cannot have them. Number two is we do not have them. 

Well, if they do not have them, then we have got much bigger 

problems than what we think we do. I would just like a commitment from you for both Senator Carper and myself. Our goal is we 

are after the waste and the inefficiencies. It is not partisan at all. 

Money that is wasted hurts everybody in this country. We are committed to that. And I would like a commitment from you that when 

we are stuck, we want to be coming to you. We want the pressure 

run down the flagpole so we get what we need. 

Ms. COMBS. I hope you will call me. I almost hope you call me 

as a first resort, because I would love to know what you are trying 

to get and see if we can help you, because what you told me this 

morning I find unacceptable. 

Senator COBURN. Thank you again for coming. We appreciate 

your willingness to serve this country and the hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 3:13 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 

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