### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

+ + + + + PUBLIC MEETING ON THE TEST PROCEDURE FOR COMMERCIAL REFRIGERATION EQUIPMENT

+ + + + +

THURSDAY JANUARY 6, 2011

+ + + + + The meeting convened in Room 1E-245 of the U.S. Department of Energy, 1000 Independence Avenue, Southwest, Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, Facilitator, presiding.

Reporter: Eric Mollen

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2 PRESENT: DOUG BROOKMAN, Facilitator KARIM AMRANE, PhD, Air-Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice STEVEN COUSINS, Coca-Cola North America JOHN DAVIS, Traulsen CHARLES HON, True Manufacturing Company ELIZABETH KOHL, DOE CHARLES LLENZA, DOE DAN MANOLE, Hussmann, Ingersoll Rand JON McHUGH, McHugh Energy Consultants ANDREW NAWROCKI, Navigant Consulting MASSOUD NESHAN, Southern Store Fixtures, Inc. GRAHAM B. PARKER, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy CHARLIE STEPHENS, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance COLLIN WEBER, Navigant Consulting SARAH WIDDER, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory SATISH BAPANAPALLI, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3 TABLE OF CONTENTS

ITEM PAGE Welcome/Introduction..........................4 Reference Slide Overview....................10 Rulemaking History & Time Lines.............24 Test Procedure Rulemaking Scope.............49 Proposed Test Procedure Amendments.......109 Burden of Testing & Regulatory Review....214 Closing Remarks............................255

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 9:01 a.m. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning, 4 everybody. Welcome. This is the U.S. 5 Department of Energy's public meeting on the 6 test procedure for commercial refrigeration 7 equipment. 8 Today is Thursday, January 6, the 9 first rulemaking proceeding of the New Year, 10 2011. Welcome, everybody. Glad you could be

11 here. 12 My name is Doug Brookman, from 13 Public Solutions in Baltimore. We're going to 14 start this morning with welcoming remarks from

15 Charles Llenza. 16 MR. LLENZA: I welcome you all to 17 the proceedings here for the CRE TP NOPR. 18 It's the beginning of a new year and I hope to 19 work closely with the stakeholders and parties 20 of interest here in getting a good test 21 procedure out and also, in having a better 22 rule the next time around for the CRE. So,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5 1 welcome you all to DOE today. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's start with 3 introductions. I'll start over here, to my 4 left, with Steve. 5 Please say your name and 6 organizational affiliation. 7 MR. COUSINS: Good morning. I'm 8 Steve Cousins with the Coca-Cola Company, 9 based in Atlanta, Georgia. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 11 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 12 Manufacturing.13 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, Air14 Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration 15 Institute. 16 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, American 17 Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy. 18 MR. DAVIS: John Davis with

19 Traulsen. 20 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stevens, 21 Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance. 22 MR. McHUGH: Jon McHugh,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6 1 representing the California Statewide Codes 2 and Standards Program. 3 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE General

4 Counsel. 5 MR. LLENZA: Charles Llenza, 6 Department of Energy, Project Manager. 7 MR. WEBER: Collin Weber, Navigant 8 Consulting. 9 MR. NAWROCKI: Andrew Nawrocki, 10 Navigant Consulting. 11 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific 12 Northwest National Lab. 13 DR. BAPANAPALLI: Satish 14 Bapanapalli, Pacific Northwest National Lab. 15 MR. PARKER: Graham Parker, Pacific 16 Northwest National Laboratory. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thanks 18 to all of you. Thanks for being here on time, 19 we'll get an early start on the day. 20 I'm going to do a very brief agenda 21 review, and immediately following this agenda 22 review, there's an opportunity for anybody

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7 1 that wishes to do so, to make brief opening 2 remarks, to summarize their issues of concern. 3 Then immediately -- as I say, 4 immediately following this agenda review, 5 there will be an opportunity for that, and 6 then following that, rulemaking history and 7 time lines from Charles Llenza, test procedure 8 rulemaking scope. We're going to have a 9 presentation on that. 10 I think many of you, perhaps all of 11 you, are familiar with the general format for 12 these meetings. 13 You received a packet of 14 information, PowerPoint slides and 15 supplemental information, including the 16 Federal Register notice. They will be the 17 basis for both presentation and discussion, as 18 the day goes on. 19 And the Department has tried its 20 best to call out, in question boxes, the 21 specific information that it wishes to obtain, 22 through comment.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8 1 So we will pause at those places, 2 and elicit your comments then. 3 After Sarah Widder does the test 4 procedure rulemaking scope, we'll probably 5 take a break, mid-morning-ish, and then we'll 6 hear about proposed test procedure amendments, 7 and then on directly to the burden of testing 8 and regulatory review. 9 The agenda reflects that we're 10 going to close today sometime between 12:45 11 and 1:30, with closing remarks. 12 There is yet another opportunity 13 for stakeholders, anybody that wishes to do 14 so, to make supplementary remarks, other 15 issues of concern that you wish to raise at 16 the closing of this meeting today, and the 17 agenda reflects we'll adjourn by 1:30. 18 We'll adjourn when we adjourn and 19 probably in that general time frame. 20 Questions and comments here, about 21 the agenda? 22 I'd ask for your consideration.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9 1 Please, speak one at a time. Please, say your 2 name for the record. You don't need to say 3 your organizational affiliation unless you 4 wish to. 5 I'm going to be cuing individuals 6 by name as best I can. I also wish to 7 encourage follow-on comments. Sometimes, the 8 back and forth is helpful to the Department, 9 as it reviews and creates its understanding 10 from this meeting. 11 There will be a complete transcript 12 of this meeting prepared. That's why we need 13 your name for the record, and that will be 14 posted on the regulations.gov website, in the 15 span of a week or so, correct, and I think 16 that is it, as an overview. Have I forgotten 17 anything, here at the outset? 18 Okay, so, then let's proceed. This 19 is an opportunity for anybody to make brief 20 summary remarks, at the outset. Charlie, I 21 thought you were reaching for it, no? No -- 22 none from industry?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10 1 Jon McHugh, you have some slides

2 here at the outset? 3 MR. McHUGH: Yes, please. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah, thank you for 5 cuing those, and are we joined by folks on the

6 web? 7 For those of you that are joining 8 us via the web, glad you could join us. 9 The Department of Energy is trying 10 hard to make these meetings accessible for 11 those that aren't traveling, and hope you find 12 that this -- come on up here, Jon.

13 MR. McHUGH: Thanks. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: I hope you find that 15 this opportunity is useful for you, and we are 16 also trying to entertain, as best we can, 17 questions from those on the web as we're going 18 along. 19 So if anything major comes up, 20 please, click the right button and send your 21 question into our moderator, and we'll see if 22 we can get it answered. Jon McHugh.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11 1 MR. McHUGH: Thank you, and of 2 course, I'm here representing the California 3 Statewide Codes and Standards Program, and 4 this is supported by Pacific Gas & Electric, 5 Southern California Edison and San Diego Gas & 6 Electric. 7 So today we're going to be talking 8 about commercial refrigeration equipment and 9 the test methods associated with that. 10 This is part of some concurrent 11 rulemakings that are going on, that I think 12 have a lot of the same issues associated with 13 walk-in refrigeration, and we've been making 14 the argument that we really should be using a 15 similar approach that the commercial 16 refrigeration equipment test method's using, 17 which is treating the remote condensing unit 18 as something that has a reference efficiency, 19 similar to what's being done for commercial 20 refrigeration equipment, for walk-ins. 21 But this also points to the fact 22 that there is a substantive amount of

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12 1 additional energy savings associated with the 2 condensing unit, and we request that DOE 3 consider looking at the issues behind 4 regulating the efficiency of condensing units, 5 and you know, the reasons are quite obvious. 6 You know, there are some huge 7 energy savings associated with condensing unit 8 savings, you know, especially, you know, the 9 measures associated with floating head 10 control, variable speed of condensing -- 11 condenser fans, and so we recommend that DOE 12 consider that as they move forward. 13 You know, one of the questions 14 about test methods is whether or not the test 15 methods are actually limiting savings, and 16 during the last proceedings, DOE, in their 17 TSD, had suggested that there were a number of

18 measures that could not be evaluated because 19 the test method was a steady state test

20 method. 21 And so they had suggested in the 22 TSD, that these list of measures here, higher

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13 1 efficiency, expansion valves, fan motor 2 controls, anti-sweat heater controllers and 3 liquid-suction heat exchangers were not 4 available -- or were not possible to be

5 evaluated under the current test method. 6 In the Federal Register, the 7 argument -- just the opposite argument is 8 being made, you know, that this 24 hour test 9 method that involves door openings, etcetera, 10 that we're actually exercising the system and 11 actually, putting the system into full-load 12 operation, as well as part-load operation, and 13 we agree with DOE. 14 And as a result, we would like to 15 see DOE actually evaluate some of these 16 measures that involve part-load performance in 17 a standard and involve transients. 18 The only measure on the list that 19 probably could not be evaluated is anti-sweat 20 heater controllers, because it is under -- the 21 test method is under a single ambient 22 condition.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14 1 But the rest of these measures are 2 exercised by the current test method, and so 3 we think that these should be evaluated. 4 There is just some information here 5 about liquid-suction heat exchangers and that6 these can actually be evaluated under full7 load conditions, steady state conditions, and 8 so, there is really no reason not to evaluate 9 that, and with the modern refrigerants, the 10 value of liquid-suction heat exchangers is 11 higher. 12 Anti-sweat heater controls, you 13 know, especially for folks that are the end 14 users, there is a reason why they need to 15 work, and it has to do with issues associated 16 with trip and fall hazard, and you know, one 17 of the questions for this group is whether or 18 not the -- an anti-sweat heater control 19 standard makes sense to actually do, as part 20 of an appliance standard, that often, that 21 these controls actually are applied on a 22 store-wide basis, measuring the air

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15 1 conditioning of the entire store. 2 And so it really raises a question 3 about whether or not this should actually be 4 part of the appliance standard and 5 additionally, whether or not the appliance 6 standard should preempt building standards 7 from regulating anti-sweat heater controls. 8 So it would be very helpful for DOE 9 to provide some clarity about what is the 10 scope of an appliance standard versus a 11 building standard. 12 The other issue has to do with 13 night covers, similar kind of issues. It 14 makes sense for stores that operate 16 hours a 15 day, but it doesn't make so much sense for 16 stores that operate 24 hours a day, and again, 17 some clarity on the appropriate coverage of 18 night covers and whether or not this standard 19 preempts building codes such as ASHRAE 90.1, 20 you know, which DOE is supporting and is the 21 basis of the national building standards, 22 whether or not 90.1 should actually have the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16 1 authority to regulate night covers. 2 The other thing is, is that if 3 night covers are applied to a piece of 4 equipment, that's very helpful for reducing 5 loads at night, but does nothing during the 6 day, when the utilities I represent have their 7 peak loads, and so, this would also be an 8 issue. 9 Just because you have a night cover 10 that's reducing loads at night, that it 11 doesn't increase loads during the day. 12 The other thing that -- reading 13 through the test method -- was that I didn't 14 see any discussion about the various 15 refrigerants used, and it really raises a 16 question about, you know, DOE is interested in 17 trying to reduce the burden on industry and 18 not have multiple tests for the same piece of 19 equipment, and I guess the question that needs 20 to be addressed is what should be done when 21 you test with one refrigerant and then another 22 refrigerant is being applied and should there

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17 1 be different test standards for that same 2 piece of equipment when different refrigerants

3 are used? 4 So in conclusion, I think there is 5 a series of questions I've raised and 6 hopefully, we discuss many of them today. 7 Thank you very much. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, and Jon, 9 I presume that these slides will be expanded 10 in your written remarks.

11 MR. McHUGH: Yes. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 13 MR. McHUGH: Okay. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: I wanted to give a 15 chance for anybody from industry especially to 16 comment, if they wish to. No need and no 17 obligation, of course. Charlie? 18 MR. HON: I have a couple of 19 questions. Number one is, have you considered 20 secondary loop systems as part of your 21 project, because when you start discussing 22 condensing units, you end up with secondary

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18 1 loops, which are very unusual and very 2 difficult to test. 3 At this time, they are technically 4 not in the ASHRAE 72 standard, and they are 5 being reviewed right now, but as of today, we 6 do not have a definitive reproducible test 7 method, which would allow for testing of these 8 units. 9 They're becoming more and more 10 common in the industry, quite often with CO as

2 11 a secondary loop refrigerant, which has a 12 large environmental improvement, but you lose 13 a little bit in energy efficiency. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Jon McHugh? 15 MR. McHUGH: So the State of 16 California is looking at this, as part of 17 their building standards. 18 So we're looking at both energy 19 efficiency and also, greenhouse gas emissions 20 because traditionally, the leakage rate for 21 supermarket refrigeration has been on the 22 order of 18 percent per year.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19 1 And so if you start looking at the 2 greenhouse gas impacts of those refrigerants 3 being released, we're very interested in 4 updating standards to account for secondary 5 refrigerants, as well as CO type secondary

2 6 systems. 7 So absolutely, I think that's also 8 an area that's ripe for improvement. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 10 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. There 11 is also -- you have made a comment about 12 testing with different refrigerants. 13 It's been my experience in the 14 industry that if you change refrigerants into 15 a box itself, going into the evaporator coil 16 and all, normally, you would have to change 17 the expansion valve and several other items in 18 the system, which would effectively change the 19 entire system. 20 So I don't know how you would say 21 that we could be substituting refrigerants, 22 without changing -- making -- without

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20 1 retesting, because I don't know how it can be

2 done.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for that

4 comment. Steve?5 MR. COUSINS: Steve Cousins, Coca6 Cola. 7 In our system, we're currently 8 using the identical cabinets, or cold boxes, 9 with multiple refrigerants, in a variety of 10 locations. 11 What we've found is echoing what 12 Charlie has said. The only thing in common 13 with these cabinets, with different 14 refrigerants, is the cabinet itself. The 15 refrigeration deck is different. 16 Of course, the primary mode of the 17 compressor is going to be different. The heat 18 exchanger is different, and one of the 19 challenges that we have with varying 20 refrigerants is that the efficiency, in large 21 measure, depends on the application, or the 22 environment, operating environment that it's

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21 1 in. 2 So whereas the test conditions may 3 be identical for comparison purposes, or for 4 example, we find that CO refrigerant R744 is

2 5 most efficient in lower temperature 6 applications, environments than an HFC or HC, 7 for example. 8 The way we treat varying 9 refrigerants is we actually treat the cabinet 10 as completely different. 11 It may look identical -- they may 12 look identical to all external parties, but we 13 treat them as different SKUs, and they -- and 14 the -- I think it would be difficult to say, 15 "Let's test that refrigerant," and it is a 16 worst case scenario, because looking at the 17 application for these cabinets, there is no 18 worst case scenario. 19 I mean, in your test conditions, 20 that may be the worst case scenario. But in 21 real life, it may be -- during the summer 22 periods, it's the best case, and then during

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22 1 winter, it's worst case. So it's a -- we just 2 treat these as different cabinets. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks for 4 those comments. Karim Amrane. 5 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I 6 guess following up on this issue of 7 refrigerants, I think what needs to happen 8 here is that during the rulemaking process, 9 DOE has to assess the impact of those 10 refrigerants, and yes, there will be new 11 refrigerants. 12 I mean, there are legislation being 13 proposed. There are, you know, push to phase 14 that down, HFCs, and so, there would be, you 15 know, alternative refrigerants, and that -- 16 those would perform differently in a system. 17 So yes, DOE will have to assess 18 that and see what can be achieved with those 19 refrigerants. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, final comments 21 here in this opening round? 22 I thought that was a useful

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23 1 exchange right there. So thanks, and Jon, 2 thanks for raising these issues, then we'll go

3 to Charles Llenza. 4 I think all of you have a copy of 5 these slides in your presentation. Harvey 6 Sachs, before we get going. 7 DR. SACHS: While Charlie is 8 getting ready, will Jon's slides be available 9 to this group? 10 MR. BROOKMAN: I was just asking 11 that question. Sarah told me that she -- 12 they're now on the computer. What will you do 13 with them Sarah?

14 So that wasn't on the record. She 15 said that -- 16 MS. WIDDER: Sorry. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Not at all, that's 18 okay. She said that these slides will be 19 posted as a part of the transcript, okay. 20 MR. LLENZA: I'm also encouraging 21 Jon McHugh to send out an email to all the 22 parties attending. We'll provide him a list

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24 1 of attendees, and it's probably better if he 2 directly emails the presentation. 3 MR. McHUGH: I'd be pleased to, 4 thank you. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, okay.

6 Charles Llenza. 7 MR. LLENZA: Okay, I'm going to 8 talk a little bit about the rulemaking history 9 and the time lines for not only the test 10 procedure, but also for the actual energy 11 conservation rule. 12 Okay, CRE standard regulatory 13 history, DOE published, in the Federal 14 Register, on January 9, 2009, with an 15 effective date of January 1, 2012, new 16 standards for commercial refrigeration 17 equipment. 18 EPACT 2005, amended by EPCA, and 19 directed DOE to determine whether to amend 20 standards published in January 2009 and the 21 prescribed standards, as per EPACT 2005, were 22 satisfactory, and if not, we were to come up

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25 1 with new standards by January 1, 2013. 2 As part of that, there is a 3 separate energy conservation standard 4 rulemaking ongoing, and we have -- we are in 5 the process of issuing a preliminary analysis 6 on our findings for that. 7 As part of the process, we are to 8 also take the opportunity to amend the test 9 procedures, in order to accommodate any new 10 standards that we're looking at for issuance 11 of January 2013. 12 Okay, so in the bottom, you can see 13 the time line of the different regulatory 14 history, as to this particular piece of 15 equipment. 16 Okay, the regulatory history also 17 allows -- just to talk about the commercial 18 refrigeration equipment regulatory history a 19 little bit. 20 As you can see, the prescribed 21 standards were defined in 42 USC 6311(3) and 22 (4), and those refer to prescribed standards

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26 1 that EPACT 2005 had described, and the test 2 procedure determined are generally accepted by 3 industry, also, they were recognized by ASHRAE

4 and ANSI. 5 So ASHRAE 117 was the adopted test 6 procedure for the EPACT 2005 prescribed 7 standards, and that started up our commercial 8 refrigeration equipment testing -- test 9 procedure program here. 10 Okay, the Department has the 11 authority, via EPCA, to -- has the authority 12 to amend ASHRAE 117, as part of the regulation 13 that was issued, and the Department will 14 determine if a new standard, as compared to 15 ASHRAE 117, is necessary, then what -- it 16 would be comparable or better than ASHRAE 117, 17 all depending on the findings of the 18 Department. 19 Basically, the authority is given 20 to us, that we have a review cycle every seven 21 years to amend the test procedure, to make 22 sure it's current.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27 1 Okay, so for the current CRE test 2 procedure that -- for the adopted standards in 3 January 2009, the ones issued by the 4 Department, we adopted in the en masse 5 December 2008, ARI 1200-2006. That also

6 referenced ASHRAE Standard 72-2005 as the

7 method of test. 8 In addition, this -- DOE adopted 9 AHAM Standard HRF-1-2004 for measuring 10 refrigerator compartment volume. That was 11 also part of the en masse test procedure.12 So we basically, in order to jump13 start the rulemaking, we adopted these test 14 procedures. They weren't the best. That's 15 why we're here today. We're trying to have 16 the test procedures concurrently catch up with 17 test technologies, so that we can measure all 18 the different technologies and for the 19 industry to get credit for energy conservation

20 standards. 21 The current CRE test procedure, 22 test temperatures, as you can see, are the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28 1 following for the rating temperatures. 2 You can see here, for the 3 commercial refrigeration and refrigeration 4 compartments, it's 38 degrees Fahrenheit plus 5 or minus two degrees Fahrenheit. For 6 commercial freezers and freezer compartments, 7 zero degrees Fahrenheit plus or minus two 8 degrees Fahrenheit and for the commercial ice 9 cream freezers, it's minus 15 degrees 10 Fahrenheit plus or minus two degrees 11 Fahrenheit, and this is outlined in the -- 12 under Title 10 of the Code of Federal 13 Register, Part 431, Subpart C. 14 Don't panic, it's also on our 15 website, so you can find it. Everything's on 16 our website and our webpage for the CRE 17 commercial refrigeration equipment. 18 Okay, I just want to talk about -- 19 a little bit about process here, and we see 20 that what we tried to do is align our energy 21 conservation standard process, which we're 22 going through, with the test procedure process

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29 1 that we're updating. 2 Now, while this looks a little 3 rigid here, the actuality is that the test 4 procedure process can slide anywhere from the 5 framework to the final rule, and that's done 6 to allow maximum flexibility for the 7 Department in terms of adopting the best test 8 procedure methodologies so that the rule

9 becomes a better rule. 10 So we have a little flexibility. 11 Our plan, initially, will be to try to 12 complete the test procedure by the NOPR stage 13 of the standard. That's pretty much what this 14 is showing here, and again, just that the 15 energy conservation rulemaking is in 16 preliminary analysis stage and we will be 17 presenting that at a separate public meeting, 18 and also, it will be published in a separate 19 Federal Register notice. 20 Okay, so I've -- I put together -- 21 go ahead, question? 22 DR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30 1 With respect to slide 13, one slide previous, 2 what's not clear to me is, for example, in the 3 yellow, preliminary analysis has an end point. 4 Is there going to be a public 5 meeting at the end of that preliminary 6 analysis, before the NOPR, or where are the 7 opportunities for comment by stakeholders? 8 MR. LLENZA: Let me go to the next 9 slide. I think that sort of gives us a better 10 idea of the actual time lines. 11 DR. SACHS: Okay. Thank you. 12 MR. LLENZA: I'm sorry that -- this 13 is just our generic approach, and we have14 flexibility to make sure that, as you see15 Harvey, as you had indicated, that we put 16 meetings in strategic places here, so that 17 there is a little bit of an overlap between 18 the test procedures and the actual energy 19 conservation standard, because the way I see 20 it, at least, is these two rulemakings are 21 very close together linked, and what we try to 22 do is couple, or stagger, the comment periods

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31 1 one after another, so that if there is -- as 2 we proceed to finalize the test procedure, 3 we're making sure that everything is in 4 parallel and in concert with the energy 5 conversation standard. 6 So hopefully, we've done this with 7 the comprehensive schedule that we put 8 together here at the Department. We had the 9 framework public -- we had the framework 10 document published in April 2010. We had a 11 meeting, May 18, 2010, for the framework, 12 which kicked off not only the energy 13 conservation standard, but also the test 14 procedure rulemaking and we have published now 15 the test procedure NOPR document. 16 We're in the process of publishing 17 the preliminary analysis document, and that 18 will have a comment period and that would also 19 have a public meeting in the spring, sometime 20 later after publication here, in the spring of

21 2011. 22 Today we're at the TP NOPR public

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32 1 meeting and as you can see, we've tried to 2 make sure that the stakeholders will get, I 3 would call it a sneak preview of what we're up 4 to for the energy conservation standard before 5 a test procedure is adopted as a final rule, 6 which we are planning in the spring of 2012. 7 So I think that this schedule, what 8 it shows, was that we have a good overlap of 9 meetings, so that people can proceed to 10 provide comments, and since the test procedure 11 and the rulemaking, the energy conservation 12 rulemaking are linked together, there should 13 be enough overlap here to make corrections 14 back and forth between the rulemaking and the 15 test procedure, so that everything's in sync 16 and makes sense at the end of the day. 17 So at this point, I also wanted to 18 remind people that we have the authority, 19 three years after the standard final rule of 20 publication, which is 2013, that the -- the 21 new energy conservation standards for the 22 commercial refrigeration will become effective

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33 1 and the test procedure will be concurrent, 2 amended by the time the energy conservation 3 standard is published, which, this would be 4 2013, prior to that, most likely, sometime in 5 the spring of 2011. 6 If we go back to this final rule -- 7 2012, I'm sorry, test procedure final rule, 8 we're looking at 2012. 9 So you know, the basic thing to 10 consider about this, number one, I want to 11 also make the comment that people can make 12 comments to the Department, the effective date 13 of the test procedure, final rule, in addition 14 to the schedule, but I think what, in essence, 15 we're trying to capture with this kind of 16 schedule is, it's not coming overnight. It's 17 going to be laid out nicely for the industry 18 over time, and if you look at the effective 19 date, the industry will have plenty of time to 20 prepare for the next set of regulations, so. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim first and then 22 going to you, next.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34 1 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 2 But Charlie, is it also true that EPCA 3 provides two additional years for DOE, in case 4 DOE needs more time to make this rule 5 effective? 6 MR. LLENZA: Well, it's a 7 combination of things. I think that the -- 8 because this rulemaking is pretty much on 9 time, on schedule, pretty much -- pretty 10 tight, we have -- on one of these slides, we 11 had -- yes. 12 See, we -- the authority is to 13 amend within three years of the -- if we 14 determine that the new standards are 15 warranted, but we also have an authority to 16 push those out five years after the date. 17 So you know, this is one of the 18 things that the industry should comment on. 19 We understand that there is a little bit of 20 concern here, that you know, we already have a 21 test procedure -- an energy conservation 22 standard in place. It's fairly new and it's

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35 1 not starting until 2012. 2 So -- but you know, as this -- this 3 is probably one of the first rulemakings where 4 we're seeing the complete loop of the 5 legislation and the intent of having to renew 6 the test procedure every so often, on a 7 periodic basis. 8 So you know, it's important that 9 the Department get feedback from the 10 stakeholders and also that this get back to 11 the Hill, if this is too accelerated. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me let Karim 13 follow on, yes. 14 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 15 Again, I would like to follow up on this, and 16 it was part of the comment that AHRI filed 17 back in June or May of last year. 18 That was not the intent. The 19 intent was never to start the rulemaking on 20 products for which the Federal minimum 21 standards are not yet effective, that would be 22 effective in 2012.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36 1 That was not the intent. It was 2 something that -- as a matter of fact, I 3 raised that with Harvey as well. I mean, this 4 is -- we had a consensus agreement between 5 industry and energy efficiency advocates, and 6 the intent was really to amend the minimum 7 standards that were in effect for the EPACT 8 2005 standards, the self-contained equipment. 9 That was the intent. 10 So yes, we messed up, and probably, 11 the Congress wrote what Congress wrote, and 12 that's what we are here today, but that was 13 not the intent. 14 I mean, let's be clear, I mean, 15 industry and the advocates, when we negotiated 16 that legislation, that the intent was not to 17 start the rulemaking on the product for which 18 standards are not yet effective. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim, state it 20 clearly. What was the intent? 21 DR. AMRANE: As I said, the intent 22 was to do -- this rulemaking -- the intent of

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37 1 this rulemaking was to address only the2 standards that were enacted in 2005, the self3 contained commercial refrigeration project. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Okay, thank 5 you. 6 MR. LLENZA: Well, this is Charles 7 Llenza, Department of Energy. 8 We realize that we've had other -- 9 I've been involved in other rulemakings, where 10 the intent was not exactly the way the 11 legislation has been enacted, and you know, I 12 only can say is that we have an obligation 13 under the law, to follow this time line again, 14 and you know, part of the Department, we don't 15 have any control. We work for the Congress in 16 this particular case, because they enacted the

17 law. 18 So the only thing I could say is 19 please provide your comments. We have some 20 flexibility in terms of implementation, as 21 Karim indicated. We can go to a five year 22 implementation plan as opposed to a three year

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38 1 implementation plan, which should help the 2 industry a little bit more, if there's the -- 3 a little bit more time needed to prepare, 4 because, you know, the cost of replacement of 5 equipment and everything else is substantial 6 over time. 7 So I think this is something that 8 we need to talk about a little bit more. On 9 the other hand, the Department is obligated to 10 proceed with issuing a regulation until the 11 laws are changed. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Tim, this 13 gentleman's next. Please say your name. 14 MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan with 15 Southern Store Fixtures. Just a point of 16 clarification. 17 You did show the product, average 18 product temperature for different category of 19 the product, for current CRE test -- yes. 20 I just want to make sure that those 21 are stated for incorporating the doors, solid 22 or transparent, not everything in the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39 1 commercial refrigeration group. Is that

2 clear? 3 MR. LLENZA: I believe it's for the 4 new standards we issued in 2008. Is that 5 correct, Satish? You want to talk to that? 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Satish? 7 MR. NESHAN: No, it cannot be.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear from -- 9 please say your name. You're with? 10 DR. BAPANAPALLI: Yes, this is 11 Satish Bapanapalli from Pacific Northwest 12 National Lab. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Get closer, yes. 14 DR. BAPANAPALLI: Satish 15 Bapanapalli from Pacific Northwest National

16 Lab. 17 These are for all refrigerators, 18 not just refrigerators with doors. 19 So even open refrigerators, the 20 temperature is applied.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: And that was based 22 on the rule in 2008?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40 1 DR. BAPANAPALLI: The rule which 2 was published in 2009.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: 2009? 4 MR. LLENZA: Well, January 2009 --

5 end of 2008. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. You're 7 next. Keep going. Do you want to comment? 8 MR. NESHAN: Yes, I mean, the -- 9 under the NSF requirements, the average 10 product temperature that the equipment is 11 tested are 41 degrees Fahrenheit, for open 12 display cases. 13 The EPACT 2005 only covers the 14 equipment that has, at least, as it's stated, 15 that has doors, solid or transparent, and not 16 open display cases. 17 If somehow somebody's slipping 38 18 degrees, none of the equipment in the United 19 States -- most of the equipment in the United 20 States would not comply with that temperature 21 requirement.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear from

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41 1 Satish, again. 2 DR. BAPANAPALLI: Yes, this is 3 Satish Bapanapalli, again.

4 The EPACT 2005 was set for door -- 5 only refrigerators self-contained. But EPACT 6 2005 also directed DOE to set standards for 7 open refrigerators and that was -- those -- 8 that document was covered in the 2009 final

9 rule. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: And the effective

11 date for that would be when? 12 DR. BAPANAPALLI: The effective 13 date for the -- is January 1, 2012. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Do 15 you wish -- are you -- do you have anything 16 else to say at this point? 17 MR. NESHAN: No, I wanted to study 18 this, because this is not correct. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Got you. Okay, 20 please. Tim Ballo? 21 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with 22 Earthjustice. I just had a question for the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42 1 Department. 2 Is the Department's plan to analyze 3 the potential standards under both a three 4 year and five year effective -- or compliance 5 date scenario, are you just going to sort of 6 pick a most likely date and then do the 7 analysis on that date? 8 MR. LLENZA: Well, we're going with 9 the standard rulemaking process. This is 10 Charles Llenza, the Department of Energy. 11 We're going with the standard 12 rulemaking, which is three years, but you 13 know, again, we work for the public. We're 14 trying to do a good rule. 15 If there is a considerable leaning 16 from the industry with supported facts that it 17 would be better for us to do a three, a four 18 or five year implementation time frame, then 19 we could consider that. 20 But I think that at this point, 21 we're using the three year implementation time 22 frame as the beginning of -- for the analysis,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43 1 and in terms of the market analysis, also, and 2 the shipments and everything else. 3 You know, I don't think that's -- I 4 cannot think of any other rule that's at this 5 stage, where we have this three to five year 6 provision, and so you know, this is something 7 that the Department can consider, but at this 8 point, we're not really considering it. We're 9 looking at a straightforward rulemaking, which 10 is three years.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: John? 12 MR. DAVIS: Yes, John Davis of 13 Traulsen. I'll admit, I'm kind of a novice 14 with some of this. On page -- on slide 14 -- 15 COURT REPORTER: Can you turn that 16 microphone on? 17 MR. DAVIS: I might have turned it 18 off. Is that better? Can you hear me?

19 COURT REPORTER: Yes.

20 MR. DAVIS: I wanted to make sure I 21 understand. You're showing here, there's two 22 activities going on and you're showing --

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44 1 they're kind of lockstep along the time line. 2 As I understand it, there's also a 3 third activity, which isn't on the time line, 4 and that has to do with the broader 5 verification enforcement testing that hits 6 more than commercial refrigeration? 7 Am I seeing the picture properly, 8 and therefore, I'm trying to grasp where that 9 falls on this same time line. 10 MR. LLENZA: Well, okay, that is a 11 broader rulemaking. Excuse me, sorry for 12 yelling. That's a broader rulemaking, and the 13 thing about the compliance and certification 14 testing part of this program is, the test 15 procedure has components of it. The 16 rulemaking, the standard will have components 17 of it. 18 What they've done is, that they 19 pulled together all the common elements that 20 all the rulemakings have, and they've put 21 those under the compliance and certification

22 rule.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45 1 The Department is in the process of 2 issuing a series of compliance and 3 certification rule updates, and subsequently, 4 depending on the feedback that it receives 5 from the industry on that, there will probably 6 be updates every so often. 7 I guess there is a periodicity that 8 the Department is thinking of, probably one to 9 two years, every two years, to update, 10 depending on new regulation that becomes 11 effective or that starts to become in play. 12 So yes, there is another rulemaking 13 up here that's sort of an overall arching 14 rulemaking process, which is the C&E rule. 15 As far as I know, we're looking at 16 having, in the spring of 2011, having one 17 component of that, which is in lock and synch 18 with the test procedure NOPR. 19 So we're talking definitions. 20 We're talking sampling plans. This is the 21 kind of -- we're talking basic model. These 22 are the kind of things that are the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46 1 generalities that everybody has to do for all 2 the rulemakings. 3 So that's already incorporated in 4 the compliance certification rule, except we 5 work together with them. 6 So as we're working on our two 7 rulemakings here, the test procedure and the 8 energy conservation standard, we're feeding 9 them the particulars that they need to -- for 10 the overarching compliance and certification 11 rule, and as far as I know, we will have -- 12 and it's a good point, because when that rule 13 is issued this spring, I think that the 14 industry should take a good look at that to 15 make sure that they're satisfied, so that we 16 can take corrective actions over time, to 17 update that, not only the compliance 18 certification rule, but the components that 19 are part of the test procedure rulemaking and 20 the standards rulemaking. 21 And it's -- again, you're right, 22 there's another line up here with the reviews

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47 1 for that. But we are closely talking to the 2 people that are working with that, including

3 GC. 4 MR. DAVIS: So, if we have 5 questions that apply to the other one, for 6 example, lab tolerances, that kind of falls in 7 another discussion, but it's important here,

8 as well. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Pick the microphone 10 up, again. 11 MR. DAVIS: Sorry about that. 12 MR. DAVIS: To repeat, so if we 13 have an issue with something that could fall 14 in both areas, we need to bring it up in both 15 locations. 16 For example, lab tolerances, et 17 cetera, that's going to affect -- it's 18 discussed more in that other discussion, but 19 it comes into relevance here, with the test 20 procedures. 21 MR. LLENZA: Yes, it wouldn't hurt 22 any -- this is Charles Llenza, Department of

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48 1 Energy. 2 It would not hurt the Department, 3 or anybody, for that fact, if we -- if you had 4 filed your comments, not only in the test 5 procedure process, or even the energy 6 conservation process rulemaking, and then also 7 in the compliance and certification 8 rulemaking. 9 We do talk, we do exchange 10 information. When I see something that's 11 relevant to the compliance certification 12 rulemaking, I feed them information. 13 So -- but that would also help us 14 if we're not getting the picture of -- that 15 they're linked. So it doesn't hurt any to 16 repeat the comments, if you have to repeat 17 them, to remind the Department.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments at 19 this juncture? Charlie Stephens? No?

20 MR. STEPHENS: No. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay, let's 22 keep going.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49 1 MR. LLENZA: Okay, I'm going to 2 turn this over to Sarah, who is going to work 3 on the test procedure rulemaking scope 4 section. 5 MS. WIDDER: Thanks, Charlie, and 6 good morning, everyone. So I'll try and make 7 this fast, and then I think we'll have a break 8 after this section, before we get into the

9 meat of the amendments.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm not sure we 11 will. 12 MS. WIDDER: Or we will not, 13 perhaps. That was Doug, not me. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we're going 15 to keep going, until probably around about 16 10:15, maybe 10:30 a.m., I think, before we

17 break. 18 MS. WIDDER: All right, that's 19 fine. To start out, I'd just like to sort of 20 follow up on Neshan's comment and talk about 21 the scope of the test procedure that is the 22 subject of this public meeting.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50 1 We're talking about test procedures 2 and not the standards, and I know they go 3 together, but I'd like to focus comments on 4 the test procedures, if that's possible, and 5 the scope of the current DOE test procedure, 6 which is ARI 1200-2006, which references 7 ASHRAE 72-2005, as Charlie mentioned, does 8 cover both the self-contained equipment for 9 which standards were set in EPACT 2005 and the 10 remote condensing commercial refrigeration11 equipment and self-contained -- or and self12 contained equipment without doors and ice 13 cream freezers, for which standards were set 14 by DOE in 2009, for which the standards will 15 become effective January 1, 2012. 16 So they're not effective yet and -- 17 but those -- that test procedure does 18 reference the three test temperatures that 19 Charlie presented earlier. 20 ARI, they're the same test 21 temperatures that are established in ARI 1200- 22 2006. DOE adopted them straight from their

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51 1 test procedure, except for that test procedure 2 -- test temperature for ice cream freezers. 3 DOE adopted a test temperature for 4 ice cream freezers of negative 15 degrees 5 Fahrenheit, instead of the negative five 6 degrees Fahrenheit that is in ASHRAE 1200-

7 2006. 8 And then, DOE is intending to 9 include that same scope of equipment in the 10 test procedure update. So just -- we'll be 11 treating both the -- all of the equipment that 12 is under the scope of commercial refrigeration 13 equipment. 14 There's a couple of more nuanced 15 issues that were raised at the test -- at the 16 energy conservation standard framework 17 document public meeting. I'm going to talk a 18 little bit about those and how they relate to 19 the test procedure. 20 The first is secondary coolant 21 equipment, which Jon McHugh raised earlier. 22 The current -- the previous DOE test

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52 1 procedure, the current DOE test procedure that 2 we are amending here, ARI 1200-2006, excluded 3 secondary coolant equipment from the scope of 4 coverage and that was part of the reason that 5 DOE decided to exclude that equipment in their 6 rulemaking in 2009. 7 The other reason was that secondary 8 coolant equipment, at the time, had a very 9 small market share, and DOE did not believe it 10 was justified in regulating that small of a

11 market. 12 The proposed energy conservation 13 standard is not intending to include secondary 14 coolant equipment in the scope of coverage of 15 the energy conservation standard, and as such, 16 secondary coolant equipment will not be 17 included -- or is not proposed to be included 18 in this test procedure update. 19 Secondary coolant equipment is also 20 still excluded from the updated ASHRAE -- or 21 AHRI 1200-2010 version. 22 The first comment that we're going

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53 1 to be asking for feedback from stakeholders 2 is: DOE welcomes comment on the exclusion of 3 secondary coolant equipment from the test 4 procedure. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs? 6 DR. SACHS: Sarah, in the 7 Department's consideration for the exclusion 8 of secondary refrigerants, was any 9 consideration given to global market trends, 10 as opposed to those in the U.S.? This relates 11 to global competitiveness and U.S. 12 manufacturer competitiveness. Thank you. 13 MS. WIDDER: Thank you, Harvey. I

14 --

15 MR. LLENZA: Let me answer. 16 MS. WIDDER: Yes, go ahead. 17 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles 18 Llenza, Department of Energy. 19 No, actually, we have -- part of 20 our regulation is really for the domestic

21 market. 22 While we are to look at the global

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54 1 market, it's not the primary concern. 2 So our data indicates that we -- 3 that that market segment is really not that 4 big in the United States. 5 Now, we may have been mistaken, but 6 we don't have any kind of information that 7 shows us that that market segment is growing

8 to a level that we would be concerned about 9 the energy consumption levels. 10 DR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs, 11 again. I appreciate the historical 12 perspective. It appears to me, as an 13 onlooker, that the general globalization 14 trends and the huge churn in allowable 15 refrigerants make it important to think about 16 trends that will impact the availability and 17 market -- that could impact the availability 18 and market share of equipment for the U.S. 19 market, over the time span that this 20 regulation will be in effect. 21 And therefore, to exclude classes 22 which are effectively being all but mandated,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55 1 would seem to be very shortsighted, regardless 2 of whether the ultimate regulation includes 3 those or not. To exclude them in the 4 consideration of the test method, the 5 screening analysis and so on, just seems to 6 have a -- the potential of a very strong 7 negative impact on U.S. industry. 8 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles 9 Llenza, again. Well, in order to facilitate 10 enlightenment to the Department, we would 11 appreciate comments from the industry in terms 12 of what their perspective is on -- in terms of 13 that market, what kind of impacts are they 14 expecting in the future, draw us the picture, 15 pretty much. That's what I would like for the 16 industry to do, and the stakeholders to do. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: With the trend 18 lines. 19 MR. LLENZA: That's right. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 21 DR. SACHS: Sir, this is Harvey 22 Sachs, again. Isn't this, to some extent, the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56 1 responsibility of the Department as well? 2 This is about the equipment that is 3 likely to be sold during the time span of 4 effective regulation and seems to me to be no 5 different from questions that have long been 6 subject to sensitivity analysis in other parts 7 of the analysis by DOE, such as the 8 variability of energy prices. 9 I do not believe that this is 10 something that's exclusively the 11 responsibility of industry. 12 MR. LLENZA: I didn't -- this is 13 Charles Llenza, Department of Energy. 14 I did not mean to say it was 15 exclusively industry. I meant to say, what we 16 have, in terms of background information, what 17 the Department has looked at within the 18 parameters of providing regulation with what's 19 available in the market segments now, as known 20 refrigerants, for example, in the U.S. 21 industry, this -- we have established what 22 we're analyzing and what we should analyze.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57 1 What the Department is requesting 2 is that the industry knows better than what we 3 have currently under our information tree, 4 that we would appreciate them sharing that 5 information with the Department so that we can 6 proceed to take some course of action to

7 correct. 8 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Thank 9 you. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stephens? 11 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. I 12 see that it was excluded, in the test 13 procedure for this equipment, it was excluded 14 in 2006. It was excluded again in 2010. 15 Can somebody tell me if anybody is 16 taking any steps to create a test procedure 17 for that equipment, so that at some point, we 18 know how to measure what it does? 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim? 20 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 21 Yes, it is excluded from AHRI 1200, but we are 22 working on the standard on secondary coolants,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58 1 so there will be a standard very shortly. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 3 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon, True 4 Manufacturing. 5 As chairman of the ASHRAE 72 6 standards, we are working on it, as well, an 7 actual test procedure. 8 The test procedures which are in 9 Europe right now, we're reviewing those to see 10 how maybe they could be implemented, so that 11 we would have an international standard 12 coverage, rather than just a domestic 13 coverage. 14 But at present time, the 15 information we're getting from some of our 16 people is that the variability in the test is 17 quite large. 18 So there is some question, whether 19 we really want to do that or not.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Charles Llenza? 21 MR. LLENZA: Yes, Charles Llenza, 22 Department of Energy.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59 1 We would appreciate more 2 information on the time lines that AHRI has 3 and ASHRAE has on this, because it would be 4 important to see if we can align them with our 5 process here. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 7 MR. HON: ASHRAE 72 is due for a 8 secondary release later this year, and at -- 9 unless something happens very, very fast, and 10 our meeting is next -- later this month, it 11 would not be included in this standard. 12 I know that we're scheduling an 13 immediate secondary, go right back into the 14 rulemaking again. So we would be probably 15 three to four years out on a -- at the next 16 revision. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 18 Yes, Jon McHugh? 19 MR. McHUGH: I'd like to hear about 20 -- a clarification about whether equipment 21 that does use secondary refrigerants, if they 22 are considered not covered and therefore

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60 1 subject to state regulation. 2 MS. WIDDER: Equipment that uses 3 secondary coolant would not be covered in -- 4 from the DOE appliance standards. 5 MR. McHUGH: So they would be 6 subject to state regulation?

7 MR. LLENZA: If we don't have 8 anything, the state --

9 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 10 MR. LLENZA: -- trumps.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Charles 12 Llenza. Thank you. Karim? 13 DR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane.

14 I wouldn't -- I'm not so sure about that. So 15 you better look at the legislation and -- 16 before, you know, moving forward with the 17 state regulation. 18 So please read carefully the 19 legislation. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy, do you wish

21 to comment?

22 MS. KOHL: No.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61 1 MR. McHUGH: A follow-on question 2 is that if this is not covered in this 3 regulation, what is the projected time line of 4 the next round of DOE regulations for CRE that 5 -- what is this, sort of window of opportunity 6 for state regulation, I guess? 7 MR. LLENZA: Well, again, we have a 8 -- I think it's -- there's a look-back 9 provision of six years for the standard and 10 then seven years for the test procedure. 11 MS. KOHL: Yes, at least once 12 during that time period, so it doesn't have to

13 be -- 14 MR. LLENZA: Yes, so, I mean, I 15 know, we're not covering it today, but I think 16 that the next round, we can't ignore it. 17 But the problem right now is 18 getting our hands around it. The industry is 19 having a hard time. They're looking at it, 20 probably ahead of the Department. We don't 21 necessarily have a better way of approaching 22 anything at this moment in time.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62 1 It's not to ignore Harvey on this, 2 but you know, it's something duly noted. We 3 should, you know, work closely with industry4 to get a test procedure that's industry5 accepted and then, that would make it a lot 6 easier for the Department to be able to 7 proceed with taking steps to, you know, 8 include this in the energy conservation

9 standards. 10 MR. McHUGH: Okay, so just to 11 clarify, probably no DOE standard for 12 secondary refrigerants until something like 13 2021, in terms of effective date? 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy? 15 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl. It would be 16 speculative. We'd need to consider it in the 17 next round of communication. 18 MR. McHUGH: Okay, thank you. 19 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 20 Manufacturing. What would be the earliest 21 legal date that could happen, if 2016 is a

22 real number?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy? 2 MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl, DOE 3 GC. I guess I'm not really sure how to answer 4 that question. 5 What we're talking about in the 6 standards for this time, is the ones that 7 would be 2013, and then, we would consider it, 8 potentially, in the next round. 9 But I mean, there would be no way 10 to say whether we would be able to cover it at 11 that point. I mean, we'd have to do analyses 12 and stuff like that. 13 So I mean, at this point, let's 14 focus on the ones for 2013 and then, you know, 15 let the future happen as it happens.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Charles Llenza? 17 MR. LLENZA: Charles Llenza, 18 Department of Energy. If you look at the 19 schedule, the issuance of the final test 20 procedure rule is spring 2012. So we're in 21 the beginning of 2011. 22 If the industry and the advocates

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64 1 and everybody else feel strongly and provide 2 us sufficient information that we can do 3 something about it, we have time to do 4 something about it, before the issuance of a 5 final rule, certainly, because even though we 6 targeted spring, that could slide somewhat. 7 We'd prefer not to, but that could slide, if 8 it's warranted, for competitive reasons, 9 etcetera, market share, energy use, etcetera. 10 You know, the experts, we're 11 relying on the experts. The Department is not 12 necessarily the experts on secondary coolant. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, we're going to 14 move on now. Go ahead, Jon. 15 MR. McHUGH: One last comment, 16 which is -- and I believe the statewide codes 17 and standards program brought this up earlier, 18 which is -- the Department is relying on the 19 industry AHRI standard. What they include or 20 exclude does not seem appropriate as the basis 21 for setting policy. 22 And so in terms of the DOE's and

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65 1 EPA's policy issue -- policy determinations 2 around greenhouse gas emissions and energy 3 efficiency that -- that they need to consider, 4 as Harvey's brought up, you know, the global 5 markets, what is the projected requirements 6 for industry moving forward with, you know, 7 trying to meet the Federal Government's 8 greenhouse gas regulations and projected 9 regulations, that this should be carefully 10 considered. Thank you. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, let's keep 12 going. 13 MS. WIDDER: All right, moving on 14 to another topic that was brought up at the 15 framework document public meeting, and also by 16 Jon in his opening comments, the Department 17 received several comments from stakeholders 18 suggesting that DOE should incorporate 19 provisions for the testing of transient 20 technologies, or technologies that serve to 21 reduce energy consumption at either part-load, 22 or reduced refrigeration load conditions, or

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66 1 at variable time periods. 2 And just to sort of separate those 3 in our head and separate them using different 4 terminology, the DOE has termed one of them 5 part-load technologies, which would be those 6 technologies that function as a -- function as 7 a variable of ambient condition, and that 8 would be the anti-sweat heater controls or 9 higher efficiency expansion valves, condenser 10 fan motor controllers that reduce energy use 11 at reduced ambient conditions, or lower 12 temperatures and lower relative humidities. 13 The other type of equipment that 14 we'll be discussing is what we're terming 15 energy conservation features, and those are 16 the transient technologies or energy reduction 17 devices that operate solely as a function of 18 time or some other variable that is not 19 refrigeration load. 20 And for example, that would be 21 lighting occupancy sensors that are based on 22 occupancy or scheduled controls based on time,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67 1 or night curtains, which are also based on 2 time, and so we'll talk about each of those 3 separately in the next slides. 4 First, I'm going to talk about the 5 part-load technologies that function as a 6 variable of ambient conditions. 7 As has been mentioned, ARI standard 8 1200 and ASHRAE 72 are a steady state test 9 procedures. However, the DOE has decided -- 10 has determined that some inherent part-load 11 effects are captured in that standard from the 12 door opening requirements. When the doors are 13 opened and closed that will change the 14 refrigeration load and the performance of some 15 of these energy management devices that 16 function as a basis of variable refrigeration 17 load will be captured. And also, if the night 18 curtain provision that is proposed today is 19 incorporated, that would change refrigeration 20 load and would also capture some of that 21 variable refrigeration load performance. 22 DOE also understands that in order

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68 1 to characterize fully, the effect of energy 2 conservation features that function as a 3 variable of ambient condition or to 4 characterize fully, the efficacy of anti-sweat 5 heater controls, for example, that would 6 require multiple tests at multiple ambient 7 conditions, to understand energy use at all of 8 those points. 9 The DOE believes that that would 10 cause a significant burden on manufacturers, 11 to test at all of those different ambient 12 conditions, and would not be justified given 13 the energy savings that those devices 14 accomplish. 15 And so, right now, the DOE is 16 proposing, in this NOPR, to continue testing 17 at one steady state condition, that is the 75 18 degrees Fahrenheit and 55 percent relative 19 humidity, and just include the inherent 20 transient effects that is part of that test. 21 The other test -- I will ask for 22 request for comment at the end, but I'm also

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69 1 going to talk right now about the technologies 2 that function as a variable of time or of 3 occupancy. 4 The DOE is considering explicit 5 test procedures that treat lighting occupancy 6 sensors and scheduled controls and night 7 curtains, and has proposed methods for 8 calculating the energy consumption, or 9 including those technologies in this test 10 procedure NOPR, and I'll talk about those in 11 the next several slides. 12 To follow up, DOE requests comment 13 on the burden to manufacturers associated with 14 testing energy efficiency technologies, since 15 that's been the main basis for exclusion from 16 these categories, and -- other than those, and 17 actually, including those that the DOE will be 18 covering. 19 So, lighting occupancy sensors and 20 schedule controls, night curtains and any 21 other technologies that stakeholders believe 22 should be covered, that the DOE is excluding.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Please, comments? 2 Please say your name, again. 3 MR. NESHAN: I'm sorry, Massoud 4 Neshan with Southern Store Fixtures. 5 You are indicating night curtain is 6 being considered as an energy conservation 7 feature in the display cases. 8 Are you aware in the State of 9 California, the Title 24, they are not 10 requiring night curtains to be used because 11 it's shown that it is not cost effective, 12 using night curtains? This is as of about 13 three weeks ago.

14 MS. WIDDER: I am aware that the 15 State of California has decided that there are 16 also other voluntary programs that have found 17 other -- have found that night curtains can 18 save a considerable amount of energy in stores 19 that do not operate 24 hours a day.

20 MR. NESHAN: I understand. I 21 didn't say that it's not conserving energy. 22 It's not cost effective.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71 1 I mean, if you put door -- night 2 curtain, yes, you save energy. But is it cost 3 effective? 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 5 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles 6 Llenza, Department of Energy. 7 I think in part of the options, 8 design options for equipment, the Department 9 is not trying to limit any particular 10 technology, and I think that one of the things 11 that we'd like to have is more options and 12 then the industry decide which options that 13 they pick and choose, to get to the energy 14 conservation levels that the Department 15 establishes, at some point. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 17 MR. WEBER: Collin Weber, Navigant 18 Consulting. Just in response, I'd like to 19 point out that during the energy conservation 20 standard setting process, cost effectiveness 21 will be considered in the engineering 22 analysis, life cycle cost analysis and all the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72 1 other downstream analyses for the rulemaking. 2 At this point, we're just dealing 3 with what is the scope of technologies with 4 which we can work. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Karim, go

6 ahead. 7 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane. I guess 8 this is a question for DOE. 9 I mean, the way I understand the 10 proposal here is that you want to give a way 11 to account for night curtain. That's fine, I 12 mean, I have no problem with that. 13 The question would be, during the 14 rulemaking analysis, are you going to look at 15 mandating that curtain or not? I mean, that's 16 a very different question, and as long as 17 you're going to provide the way to test for 18 it, to correct for it, I think it's fine. 19 Now, mandating, like Massoud said, 20 I mean, State of California just found out, 21 it's not cost effective. That's all. 22 MR. LLENZA: Charles Llenza,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73 1 Department of Energy. It's cart before the 2 horse. When we get there, we will have 3 deliberations and the industry can weigh in on

4 that. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Jon? 6 MR. McHUGH: I have a couple of 7 comments related to Massoud's comment, which 8 is that Massoud is correct, that there was a 9 preliminary analysis done for the stakeholder 10 meeting, that's part of the California Title

11 24 standards. 12 That evaluation was based on 13 reduction in convective losses from the 14 display cases that -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Jon, get that 16 microphone, please. 17 MR. McHUGH: Sorry.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 19 MR. McHUGH: Sorry, turned away. 20 That did not include potential reduction in 21 radiative losses. It's not clear if that's 22 significant or not.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74 1 There's been some other work that 2 looked at night covers that are reducing not 3 only convective, but also, radiative losses. 4 That's a preliminary analysis. 5 I think probably a larger question 6 with night curtains is that not every display 7 case is in stores that are -- that are closed, 8 and may not actually have that -- that the 9 benefit of the night curtain may not be 10 available for those spaces that operate 24

11 hours. 12 And so, again, I'd sort of like to 13 repeat the question, "Can DOE specifically 14 identify features that are not preempted, so 15 that building codes, that do understand the 16 duration of the occupancy of the space, can 17 actually regulate things, based on the 18 operating hours of the space?" 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Satish? 20 DR. BAPANAPALLI: Yes, this is 21 Satish Bapanapalli, PNNL. DOE only sets 22 energy conservation standards and there is --

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75 1 for CRE, and there are no prescriptive -- this 2 is not a prescriptive -- DOE is not taking a 3 prescriptive route. 4 That is, DOE is not going to 5 mandate that manufacturers use the design 6 options, in order to achieve that efficiency. 7 So, we believe that it will not 8 preclude any other standards from specifying - 9 - from regulating those features. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 11 MR. McHUGH: So, just to clarify, 12 you're saying that building standards can 13 require additional design requirements for 14 equipment by their occupancy? 15 MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl, DOE. 16 We have to take a look at the preemption 17 provisions, to kind of flush that out a 18 little. 19 MR. McHUGH: Yes, that would be 20 great, to receive some written comments back 21 on that, after you've reviewed that, as part 22 of the technical support document.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76 1 MS. KOHL: Yes, give us a specific 2 -- I mean, I know you're talking to this now, 3 but kind of a specific --

4 MR. McHUGH: Yes. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: And Jon, one way to 6 ensure that -- am I correct? -- if you put 7 that in your comments or questions, the 8 Department of Energy will be compelled to 9 respond to them, right? 10 MR. LLENZA: There is a -- Charles 11 Llenza, Department of Energy. 12 There is a specific test procedure 13 website that we have, and Stephen Cousins has 14 put in a question to the Department, in terms 15 of the test procedures. 16 So, I would recommend that maybe, 17 if you could tie it into that, that would be a 18 way of tracking a question to the Department. 19 MR. McHUGH: I'm sorry, through the 20 website? 21 MR. LLENZA: There is a test 22 procedure website that the Department

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77 1 maintains now. It's fairly new, and it's for 2 comments or questions on the test procedures. 3 MR. McHUGH: As opposed to in the

4 comment letter for the -- 5 MR. LLENZA: Right, correct. 6 MR. McHUGH: This is another mode 7 of communicating with the --

8 MR. LLENZA: Yes. 9 MR. McHUGH: -- Department of 10 Energy? 11 MR. LLENZA: I think that what I'm 12 going to do is to make sure that there is a 13 link on our test procedure web page, so that 14 it's more obvious to stakeholders and parties 15 that go to that web page, that we have that. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: It's not in the 17 slides that -- the comment slides at the end. 18 You haven't included it there yet. 19 MR. LLENZA: Yes, no, it's fairly 20 new. We just -- we're starting to flesh out 21 where it really needs to go. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Got you.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78 1 MR. LLENZA: So, that people see 2 this. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stephens? 4 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. 5 As I read this, the NOPR, I'm planning to 6 confine my comments to how you test for night 7 curtain use. 8 And so, my only comments were 9 really going to have to do, in this 10 rulemaking, with whether or not the proposed 11 procedures for -- essentially, how many hours 12 do you test it with whatever night curtains 13 you're using, should they be in place during 14 your test procedure? 15 I don't -- I think some of this may 16 come up again in the standards rulemaking, but 17 am I off base, here, in just kind of looking 18 at how to test with night curtains? 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Llenza? 20 MR. LLENZA: Charles Llenza, 21 Department of Energy. 22 You're on the right track, and this

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79 1 will come back up for the standards. Once the 2 preliminary analysis is published, we can 3 bring this subject up and we'll probably 4 address this issue somewhat in the public 5 meeting. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Massoud? 7 MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan, 8 Southern Store Fixtures. 9 I want to take an exception to 10 whether this was stated as that the DOE is not 11 going to come up with the prescriptive way of, 12 you know, describing how the display case has

13 to be. 14 Might not be that way-- it might 15 not be overtly, but covertly, it has happened. 16 I recall a reference, when we were coming up 17 with the standard levels for commercial 18 refrigerators, there were five different 19 categories, and category five that had -- you 20 had to use LED light to achieve certain energy 21 efficiency and that was adopted. 22 Basically, 14 manufacturers use

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80 1 LED. It might not be openly discussed or 2 stated, but however, covertly, you are forcing 3 people to do it, and it is -- but in a way, 4 contradict what you stated. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you,

6 Massoud. 7 MR. WEBER: This is Collin Weber, 8 again. Collin Weber, Navigant Consulting. 9 I mean, I'd just like to clarify, 10 those levels presented, while they did show a 11 specific technology, that was just the -- the 12 technology that the DOE chose to use at that 13 point, to reach that energy level calculation 14 in its engineering analysis. 15 If a manufacturer had, say, 16 proprietary technology or something from a 17 supplier for one of its components that was 18 different than how the DOE modeled its CRE 19 engineering analysis, then that manufacturer 20 would be completely free to use those 21 technologies to reach the standard level. 22 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81 1 Llenza, Department of Energy. 2 We have a waiver process, where if 3 any of the parties here that makes equipment, 4 decides that -- or has technology that is not 5 in the test procedure, described, but they 6 think they should be getting credit for that 7 technology, they should submit a waiver to the 8 Department.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let Massoud

10 follow on. 11 MR. NESHAN: Follow-on to what you 12 just said, why should we apply to get waivers, 13 if we have a -- if we have a technology that 14 we can achieve efficiency? 15 I don't need to apply and get 16 exceptions and let everybody know what we are 17 doing. 18 MR. LLENZA: The thing -- okay, the 19 test procedures adopted were the en masse test 20 procedures. 21 At the time of adoption, there was 22 a substantial amount of technologies that were

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82 1 not in the test procedure. 2 So, you're not going to get any 3 credit for it when you start calculating 4 energy conservation standard, because there 5 was no way that the Department, at the time, 6 back in 2008, adopting those test procedures, 7 were going to be able to measure these 8 technologies. 9 If you can't measure it, you can't 10 get credit for it. That's why these test 11 procedures are very important. 12 We're trying to amend the test 13 procedure to provide as much flexibility for 14 all the new technologies that are coming up, 15 or that are here, now, today. The things that 16 we left on the table in the past test 17 procedures, because we -- the Department was 18 under Consent Decree and we were trying to 19 rush everything to get this rulemaking process 20 started, because we were back-logged. 21 So, we're doing the best we can, 22 but if you cannot measure it, you can't get

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83 1 credit for it. 2 The option out of that is, if you 3 submit a waiver with your explanation to the 4 Department, as to why you should be getting 5 credit for, you know, some kind of device or 6 some kind of proprietary piece of equipment, 7 the proprietary piece of information will 8 remain proprietary, because the Department 9 doesn't disclose that. 10 But in terms of getting credit for 11 it, at this point in time, until we have 12 remedied the test procedure, is a waiver 13 process, and that's just the way this process

14 works. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs? 16 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE, 17 and I'd like to make two comments. 18 First, Massoud, I would like to 19 translate my interpretation of Mr. Weber's 20 comment, and that is, the Department 21 consistently proposes these trial efficiency 22 levels with a suite of technology, and as I

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84 1 read the history of the last couple of decades 2 of rulemakings, almost uniformly, industry has 3 shown itself vastly more capable of finding 4 lower cost ways to reach the standards levels, 5 than were ever anticipated by the Department 6 of Energy. 7 So, I think it's a very low bar to

8 cross. 9 The other comment I'd like to make 10 at this point, relates to Charles Llenza's 11 comment about waivers. 12 The discussion today is focused on 13 the DOE processes, and even there, there is a 14 great deal of ambiguity, as different 15 administrations have differed on the ability 16 of the Department to adopt, for example, 17 efficiency standards that include both 18 prescriptive and performance measures. 19 In other rulemakings, we have found 20 that the alternative processes that are 21 available and are now encouraged by law, of 22 consensus development by affected parties and

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85 1 things like that, give a great deal more 2 flexibility to what's included. 3 For example, there might be, in 4 that kind of a non-standard rulemaking 5 alternative process, some sort of credit for 6 the -- some sort of a standard credit for 7 night curtain and the ability to show a 8 greater savings, if you didn't want to use

9 that default. 10 So, there is a great deal of 11 flexibility that we are not talking about 12 today, for which, with all due respect to 13 Counsel, I think there is a fair amount of 14 precedent now. Is that unfair, Karim? 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. I'd like 16 to keep pressing on, unless we have other 17 substantive comments in this vein. Keep 18 going, Jon. 19 MR. McHUGH: So, this comment is in 20 response to the earlier discussion about the 21 cost effectiveness of night curtains.

22 The one measure that reduces

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86 1 convective gains, the statewide codes and 2 standards program brought this issue up 3 before, in the past, which is the measure of 4 doors on vertical display cases. Single 5 largest energy efficiency measure for display 6 cases is putting doors on those cases, 7 extremely cost effective. 8 Southern California Edison ran a 9 program, you know, two years simple pay-back. 10 You know, the -- there has been comments in 11 the past that since there is a category for 12 open display cases, that this somehow 13 precludes looking at the single largest

14 measure. 15 Again, you know, we certainly would 16 like to DOE to revisit that, revisit whether 17 or not in terms of DOE -- you know, the 18 legislation that asking that DOE look at those 19 things that optimize -- I think maximize the 20 energy efficiency of equipment, that that be 21 revisited. 22 And if nothing else, to look at

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87 1 vertical low temperature display cases. I 2 mean, the -- that's a particularly egregious 3 area of energy waste. The market size is 4 tiny. I think it's less than one percent of 5 the overall market, you know, that we'd even 6 consider having freezers that are open to 7 ambient air just seems -- I don't know. 8 Anyway, I'd just like for DOE to 9 actually look at what the impact of continuing 10 to operate those devices are, and then 11 finally, the State of California has a green 12 building standard and ASHRAE has now their 13 ASHRAE standard 189.1, the standard for high 14 performance buildings. Similarly, the ICC has 15 the International Green Construction Code, and 16 it really begs the question about whether 17 these codes for high performance buildings 18 should also be preempted by the standard that 19 basically requires that these standards cannot 20 prohibit the use of the most egregious wasters 21 of energy in supermarket refrigeration, that 22 that be allowed in those standards.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Karim? 2 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I 3 guess Jon, you're getting into to area where 4 we are mixing voluntary standard versus 5 mandatory standards, okay. 6 ASHRAE 189 was never supposed to be 7 a mandatory standard. It's a voluntary 8 standard. Requiring equipment, mandating 9 equipment above Federal minimum standard, yes, 10 it's a violation of Federal preemption. 11 That's how EPCA was written, and there's a 12 reason it was written that way. 13 So, unless you change the 14 legislation, DOE cannot do anything about it. 15 It's not a DOE issue. It's a Congress issue. 16 So, you should focus on Congress, to try to 17 change Congress. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Steven Cousins? 19 MR. COUSINS: Steven Cousins, Coca 20 Cola. Just in response to what you were 21 saying, Jon, I think in all the studies that 22 have been done, looking at the impact of

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89 1 putting doors on open display cases -- well, 2 let me back up. 3 In our Coca Cola studies, we have 4 found whether it's cost effective to put a5 door on an open display case, for -- in a big6 box retail environment, depends, in large 7 measure, on where that display case is

8 located. 9 I don't think in some of the 10 previous studies, it's been taken into 11 account, the impact of the display cases at 12 the check-out register. 13 What we have found is that open 14 display cases, anywhere else in the retail 15 outlet, there is -- there is no impact on 16 volume sales through-put. It doesn't make any 17 difference, whether there is a door there or

18 not. 19 At the check-out counter, there is 20 a huge impact. We find that sales of product 21 -- you have product losses of 35 to 50 22 percent, if the display case -- open display

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90 1 case has a door on it, at the check-out

2 counter. 3 So, we find this cost effective, to 4 put a door on, in the back of an -- a big-box 5 retailer, but not at the front, where the 6 entry or where the check-out is. 7 I don't think that's been taken 8 into account, in some of the results and 9 studies that I've read about. 10 So, I'm only saying that there is - 11 - and I know that this is not the setting to 12 have this discussion, and as has been pointed 13 out, you know, there probably is no result to 14 -- in our end -- in DOE looking at this, 15 anyway, but I just wanted to make that point.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to make sure 17 these comments remain germane to the 18 proceeding today. Okay, let's stay focused on 19 why we're here. 20 Final comment, Massoud? 21 MR. NESHAN: I just wanted to make 22 sure that the gentleman from Coca Cola's

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91 1 comment references beverage cases, not 2 necessarily all the open display cases in the 3 supermarket. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, okay, Charles 5 Llenza, then we are moving on. Keep going,

6 Charles. 7 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles 8 Llenza, Department of Energy.

9 We would welcome comments and 10 copies of the studies for the preliminary 11 analysis phase of the standards rulemaking, 12 because the Department would be more than 13 interested to look to see what those studies 14 say.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: The fact that these 16 things are linked makes this contiguous, but 17 not the center feature of this meeting today. 18 So, Sarah, keep going. 19 MS. WIDDER: Yes, thank you, Doug. 20 We're going to move on from doors on cases and 21 energy conservation features. 22 The next thing that we're going to

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92 1 talk about in the scope of the test procedure 2 is the potential of rating at higher ambient 3 temperatures, other than the standard rating 4 condition of 75/55. 5 This was raised at the framework 6 document public meeting. Stakeholders 7 commented that there is some commercial 8 refrigeration equipment that's designed to 9 operate at extreme ambient conditions or other 10 ambient conditions than the standard rating 11 temperature. 12 An example of this is NSF Type II 13 equipment, and that stands for National 14 Sanitation Foundation, although they're just

15 known as NSF now. 16 But Type II equipment is designed 17 to be tested at 80 degrees Fahrenheit for food 18 safety reasons, and the DOE recognizes that 19 it's very important to maintain that product 20 category for food integrity reasons and health 21 safety reasons. 22 And so, we're not trying to

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93 1 eliminate any products from being sold that 2 are important in the marketplace. 3 But in looking at this type of 4 equipment, the DOE has -- believes that 5 equipment that can be tested, or is designed 6 to be tested at 80 degrees Fahrenheit, can 7 also be tested at 75 degrees Fahrenheit and 55 8 percent relatively humidity, or the standard 9 rating condition, without a large amount of 10 additional burden on manufacturers. 11 And I recognize that there is also 12 an issue of energy consumption at those 13 different test temperatures, and meeting the 14 energy conservation standard at those test 15 temperatures. 16 And so, I'll also welcome comment, 17 both on the burden to manufacturers of testing 18 those higher temperature cases at the standard 19 rating condition, as well as meeting the 20 energy conservation standard, at those -- at 21 the standard rating condition, and before you 22 comment, Massoud, I'd also like to welcome any

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94 1 data, because that would be especially helpful 2 for the Department, in looking at this issue, 3 is if we could have energy consumption data of 4 the different types of cases, tested at 5 different ambient conditions. Go ahead,

6 Massoud. 7 MR. NESHAN: Two comments. One, if 8 we are to test a component design to operate 9 under higher ambient conditions, at the 75/55 10 conditions, two things happen. 11 One, the original component has to 12 have a larger condensing unit, in order to 13 accommodate higher ambient temperatures, and 14 once you put it in the room that is lower 15 temperature, performance is not going to be 16 equal or similar to what it would be doing at 17 the higher temperature, and there could be 18 some operational issues we have seen, 19 compressor cycling, there are other issues

20 that one has to overcome. 21 As you also said, there is energy 22 issue, energy consumption issue that comes

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95 1 into the picture. 2 We have seen, and I've tested this, 3 as of two weeks ago, as much as 30 percent 4 higher energy consumption when you go to 80 5 and 60 percent relative humidity, usually, 6 when you go higher ambient, the humidity tends 7 to go up as well. So, it's not just ambient 8 or dry-bulb temperature. Also, you have to 9 look at the relative humidity. 10 We have seen for open cases, as 11 much as 30 percent higher energy consumption, 12 and unless there is a provision or allowance 13 under these standard levels for commercial 14 refrigeration, refrigeration equipment, you 15 cannot just -- so it gets tested, and then not 16 knowing what the ceiling would be for energy 17 consumption of that piece of equipment. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 19 Other comments from industry, at this point? 20 Yes, Charlie? 21 MR. HON: This is an opinion. This 22 is Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96 1 I believe that going up five 2 degrees makes no difference what so ever. I 3 think you're kidding yourself. 4 In reality, when we're looking at 5 adverse conditions, we're looking at kitchens, 6 which are at 100+ degrees Fahrenheit and 80 7 percent humidity, or we're looking at Disney 8 World, which is, during the summer, 95 degrees 9 and 75 percent relative humidity. 10 So, these are real different 11 conditions. Eighty degrees is not a different 12 condition to us. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, John? 14 MR. DAVIS: Yes, I agree with what 15 Charlie said. I mean, we don't -- we're not 16 involved in the Type II equipment so much, but 17 we're involved in the kitchens and Disney 18 World and all of that, and I agree with him 19 completely, and there is an issue. 20 Now, I don't have the data. We can 21 get the data and we'll -- 22 MR. BROOKMAN: It would be good to

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97 1 get the data. The Department would really 2 appreciate that. Massoud? 3 MR. NESHAN: I'm going to make a 4 quick statement here. The equipment that the 5 gentlemen are talking about, in the kitchen, 6 they usually have doors on them. 7 However, the cases that I'm talking 8 about, they are open display cases, and one 9 degree, two degrees, three degrees, four 10 degrees makes a big difference in the 11 operation of that case, and the product 12 temperature that is sitting in that case. You 13 have to maintain certain product. 14 If you have doors on the case, the 15 impact is less.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 17 MR. NESHAN: But the open cases are 18 a different story. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, back to 20 Charlie. 21 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 22 Manufacturing. We've discovered that there

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98 1 was a point where it doesn't do any good at 2 all. It becomes a dehumidifier. No matter 3 what you do with it, you cannot refrigerate 4 with it. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Harvey Sachs? 6 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 7 This is a very, very naive equipment question, 8 but I'm -- frankly, don't have a clear 9 understanding of how much is rated at both NSF 10 II and at AHRI/ASHRAE conditions, because the 11 testing burden is about equipment that might

12 be rated under both sets. 13 Otherwise, if there is separation 14 of the equipment types, the minimum burden 15 would seem to be to test the NSF II equipment 16 under NSF II conditions, and the AHRI/ASHRAE 17 equipment under AHRI/ASHRAE conditions. 18 So, I really want to know about the 19 dual rated equipment. Thank you. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Please say your 21 name, please. 22 DR. MANOLE: Good morning. Dan

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99 1 Manole with Hussmann Ingersoll Rand. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan, get close to 3 that microphone. 4 DR. MANOLE: I will not address the 5 difference between the performances of 80 or 6 70 -- and 75, but I will bring to your 7 attention, the fact that no matter what, if we 8 have a test unit in the lab at 80 degrees, we 9 have to test that for efficiency. It's a 10 matter of food safety. 11 To test the apparatus at 75, we 12 need to bring down the temperature in the 13 room, stabilize the case, the room, that takes 14 time. 15 That means for the same room, same 16 number of laboratories, we would be able to 17 perform less tests in that same amount of 18 time. 19 We will need to build more 20 laboratories. We need to have more personnel. 21 That is cost to us. 22 So, let's say -- let's assume that

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100 1 we can get some value and see what is the 2 difference in the performance. What I had 3 meant, the accommodation, was in writing. 4 I would write -- I would prefer to 5 test at the NSF conditions and then you 6 provide me a correction factor, for example, 7 for the DOE and the allowance, or give me the 8 energy allowance for the NSF conditions, but 9 duplicate -- having two tests, in the same lab 10 at two different types of tests, temperature 11 conditions would be a big burden to us. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, let me note 13 that the comment box asks specifically for 14 comments on burden. So, that's helpful.

15 Charles? 16 MR. LLENZA: Yes, Charles Llenza, 17 Department of Energy. 18 It would be helpful to the 19 Department, to understand the breakdown of NSF 20 Type II equipment, I suppose, and the rest of 21 the equipment that we're talking about. 22 We really don't have good data on

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101 1 the breakdown, and it would help us, if we had

2 a better database for that breakdown. If 3 anybody has that information, we would 4 appreciate it. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim, I'm looking 6 at you. Do you guys have that information? 7 DR. AMRANE: I don't think that we 8 capture that kind of information, but maybe we 9 can survey among our members. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, that's 11 helpful. Thank you. John? 12 MR. DAVIS: Yes, John Davis with 13 Traulsen. We could probably -- I think when 14 you say a breakdown, you're looking for a mix, 15 sales mix. 16 What would be interesting for us, 17 and we could probably tell you the sales mix 18 of how many units are in the really demanding 19 application. 20 But what's kind of tied to it is 21 who that customer is, for example, Disney. 22 They might only buy 10 units, but they

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102 1 represent a lot more than 10 units per year. 2 They might buy -- excuse me, they might only 3 buy 10 in that application, but ultimately, we 4 need to satisfy them with a lot more than 10 5 units per year. 6 So, we can give you that data, but 7 just know that there is extenuating 8 ramifications. 9 MS. WIDDER: And I'd just like to 10 add, sorry, one other thing. 11 I think, Dan, you mentioned it 12 earlier, but I'd like -- it would be really 13 helpful to have data on the testing of these 14 extreme commercial refrigeration units that 15 operate at other ambient conditions, and how 16 they're tested at 72, and the problems with 17 testing them with -- at 72, and I know that 18 you, in your comment, Dan, mentioned that, and 19 determining that scaling factor, if that's 20 what would happen, would also be something 21 that we would need input from industry, in 22 order to effectively have something that was

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103 1 representative, and I've, you know, heard

2 other comments. 3 But what we're looking at here is 4 testing. I know that they use more energy in 5 the field when they're operating at more 6 extreme ambient conditions, but we would have 7 to establish energy conservation standards for 8 all of those equipment at different ambient 9 conditions. 10 And so, to simplify testing 11 requirements, overall, if -- it seems to us, 12 least burdensome to just have this one testing 13 requirement, and I know you disagree with 14 that, but I'd really appreciate data that 15 spoke to what the units that True is talking 16 about, Traulsen was talking about, that 17 operate at more extreme conditions, how 18 they're tested at 72, and if they can pass the 19 energy conservation standard at that test 20 condition, then they can be operated in any 21 way. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: So, that was -- now,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104 1 to Charlie. 2 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 3 Manufacturing. I think we're doing something 4 here that we looked at previously with the 5 energy, and we had discussed the ice cream 6 freezers, they had a negative five degree 7 test, which was just five degrees below the 8 existing zero degree test, and it really 9 didn't show anything. 10 I think that we need to be very 11 cognizant that we're not talking 80 degree 12 Fahrenheit testing, when we talk adverse 13 conditions. We're talking 95 or 100, and I 14 think that's more realistic for a secondary 15 test, which is a truly extreme shift in 16 conditions, but it does exist. 17 We had a store recently that -- in18 Mexico, and we had complaints with in19 efficient equipment, and we went down there 20 and tested it and it was 124 in the kitchen. 21 So, at that point, we discovered 22 that there was -- there is no way to make it

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105 1 run efficiently, but we have to be realistic, 2 and if we're talking 95, which would be the 20 3 degree shift, I think that's more realistic 4 for what you're trying to find here, is 5 capturing the odd-ball units, which are going 6 to be in severe condition. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Collin? 8 MR. WEBER: Collin Weber, Navigant 9 Consulting. Just in response to Mr. Hon, I 10 was curious, is there a voluntary or otherwise 11 certification level out there, analogous to 12 NSF II, that would correspond to a truly 13 extreme condition? 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 15 MR. HON: At this time, there is 16 not in the United States. 17 MR. WEBER: Okay. 18 MR. HON: You get into European 19 standards, they have multiple brackets, 20 worldwide standards. They have multiple 21 brackets, which go up as high as 100, what, 22 105, isn't that correct?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106 1 MR. DAVIS: One-hundred-five,

2 correct. 3 MR. HON: One-hundred-five, so, and 4 high humidity can be with it. 5 So, those are extreme conditions, 6 but they are tested elsewhere.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Before we move off 8 of this point, John, you made the point 9 earlier. I thought you said you're fairly new 10 to these proceedings. 11 MR. DAVIS: I'm catching up, yes. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, you are. The 13 Department, if it's possible to provide data, 14 we're looking at stuff that's aggregated, you 15 know, extrapolated, you know, do what you can 16 with that.

17 MR. DAVIS: Sure. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey? 19 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 20 Just picking up on Charlie Hon's comment about 21 international standards, one of the things 22 that strikes me is that the ISO approach of

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 107 1 posting multiple ambient conditions and 2 ratings at those, has been brought into the 3 U.S. in at least one case, which is water to 4 air heat pumps, where the AHRI/ASHRAE standard 5 is a carry-over from the ISO, and does allow 6 the alternative listings for equipment, 7 optimized at different ambient conditions. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim? 9 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane. Holding 10 on what Harvey just said, it is true, for 11 those heat pumps, industry wanted to switch to 12 the ISO standard, but to be honest with you, 13 the -- if we look at the -- at what it has 14 done to the industry, it does not help at all, 15 the U.S. industry, because particularly, 16 Europeans are not using the ISO standard. 17 They're using their own standard. 18 So, we did it, thinking that it 19 would open up the market and it didn't. So, 20 the ISO, although yes, we adopted the 21 standard, is not really a good example, 22 because you know, adopting international

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 108 1 standards, you know, could have repercussions 2 on the industry. 3 So, in this case, it didn't help 4 the U.S. industry. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: I believe we have 6 one more slide. 7 MS. WIDDER: Yes, are there anymore 8 comments? All right, we have the last -- all 9 right, I'll go really quickly. This is the 10 last slide. There should be no comments. 11 This is just the discussion of 12 stand-by and off mode for commercial 13 refrigeration equipment. 14 EPCA directs DOE to incorporate a 15 measure of stand-by and off mode energy use 16 into test procedures for consumer products. 17 However, they didn't similarly require that 18 for commercial equipment. 19 Also, commercial refrigeration 20 equipment, as most of you know, is designed to 21 operate 24 hours a day, and so, we will not be 22 treating stand-by and off mode in this test

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 109 1 procedure or the energy conservation standard. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: So, let's take a 3 break. It's now 10:40. We're going to take 4 the 15 minutes, because likely, we're going to 5 run to noon, or past noon, before we adjourn 6 today. 7 So, that means, 10:55 a.m., we'll 8 resume. Please, wear your badge if you're 9 going to walk around in the Forrestal 10 Building. The coffee shop is one floor below 11 us, just almost directly below us, in a stack,

12 and there -- and the restrooms are on the 13 other side of the hallway, as Charlie 14 indicates.

15 The restrooms are at both ends of 16 the hall. We'll see you back here. We're 17 going to start promptly in 15 minutes. We've 18 made a good start on the day. We'll see you 19 in 15 minutes. 20 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

21 matter went off the record at 10:40 a.m. and 22 resumed at 10:58 a.m.)

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 110 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, let's resume. 2 Please take your seats. 3 So, the discussion this morning has 4 been good. We've covered a lot of ground, 5 already. I anticipate, we'll continue in that 6 vein, and we're going to return to Sarah. 7 MS. WIDDER: Yes, thank you, Doug, 8 and I'll try and speed these up, since I know 9 we all want to get out of here. This is 10 supposed to be a half-day meeting. 11 And now we're going to talk about, 12 more specifically, the proposed test procedure 13 amendments, and there is a couple -- there's 14 three different main test procedure amendments 15 that are being proposed today. 16 The first is, updating the 17 referenced industry test procedures to the 18 most current versions, and the second is 19 incorporating specific provisions to address 20 certain energy conservation features that are 21 not currently captured in the test procedures, 22 and those are night curtains and lighting

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 111 1 occupancy sensors and scheduled controls. 2 The third is, allow commercial 3 refrigeration equipment that cannot be tested 4 at the 38 degree rating temperature for 5 commercial refrigerators to be tested at the 6 lowest application product temperature, and 7 I'm going to talk about each of these in more 8 detail in the next slides. 9 So, the first proposed amendment is 10 to update the referenced industry test 11 procedures to the most current versions, which 12 are AHRI 1200-2010 version. The changes in 13 that -- the updates in that standard, change 14 the equipment class nomenclature, the normal - 15 - the method of normalizing energy consumption 16 and the ice cream freezer test temperature, 17 and most of those changes just align the AHRI 18 test procedure with the current DOE test 19 procedure. 20 So, the DOE is thinking of adopting 21 the new AHRI 1200 test procedure, and also, 22 updating the AHAM standard to HRF-1-2008.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 112 1 This is the standard the DOE uses 2 for measuring refrigerated compartment volume. 3 This standard is also changed the -- they've 4 gone over some extensive re-organization 5 within the standard, so the sections are all 6 very different, but the content has not 7 changed substantially. 8 So, the DOE will be referencing 9 different sections, but the method of 10 calculating the refrigerated compartment 11 volume hasn't really changed. 12 So, as I mentioned, the AHRI 13 standard 1200-2010 changes pretty much align 14 it with the DOE current test procedure, and 15 we're thinking of adopting these current 16 versions of industry test procedures, and 17 we're requesting comment on updating those 18 referenced test procedures.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Massoud? 20 MR. NESHAN: Yes, Massoud Neshan, 21 Southern Store Fixtures. 22 Sarah, could you please elaborate,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 113 1 what you had -- two slides earlier, on the 2 proposed test procedures, you had the three 3 different things. Yes, this one, the third

4 one. 5 You said, allow commercial 6 refrigeration equipment that cannot be tested 7 at 38 degrees rating temperature, be tested as 8 low as application product temperature. Could 9 you elaborate on that? 10 MS. WIDDER: Yes, I will, and I'll 11 talk about that further, but just to answer 12 your question. I'll talk about that more, in 13 later slides, but just to explain it a little

14 better. 15 At the frame work document public 16 meeting, several people raised issues with 17 cases, such as candy cases or floral cases 18 that are designed to be operated at product 19 temperatures significantly different than 38 20 degrees Fahrenheit, and this third provision 21 would allow those cases, if they cannot be 22 tested at 38 degrees Fahrenheit, they cannot

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 114 1 maintain that integrated average product 2 temperature, they can be tested at the lowest 3 integrated average product temperature that 4 they can maintain, and then would just report 5 that final temperature. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so, then let's 7 proceed where we -- back where we were. 8 Harvey Sachs? 9 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. I 10 may be going someplace I don't want to go, 11 Sarah, but we reviewed the enabling 12 legislation this morning, and with reference 13 to that, I don't understand why DOE has not 14 considered the option of an alternative rating 15 method, particularly NSF II, for equipment 16 which is normally sold and rated that way. 17 We are talking about relatively low 18 volume commercial equipment, as opposed -- low 19 volume, but in many cases, high energy using 20 commercial equipment, as opposed to consumer 21 products. We're talking about a different 22 class of customers, and I would hope the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 115 1 Department will help us understand why an 2 alternative rating method, perhaps with a 3 translation table or formulas, for deemed to 4 comply, if rated under NSF II might not be an 5 appropriate path for the Department? 6 MS. WIDDER: We did have that 7 discussion before, and I welcome your 8 comments, in written comments, and will 9 respond to them. 10 But just to answer briefly, the DOE 11 believes that it would be difficult to 12 determine a scaling factor that would be 13 representative across all cases, for cases 14 that are rated at 80 degrees Fahrenheit versus 15 75 degrees Fahrenheit. 16 If that's not the case, we would 17 welcome input into what that representative 18 scaling factor should be. 19 But it seems that there would be a 20 large degree of variation, and so, it would be 21 difficult to have one factor that would 22 capture -- that would be applicable across all

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 116 1 cases. 2 Also, as there has been discussion 3 about, that there is other cases that operate 4 at more extreme ambient conditions besides the 5 NSF Type II equipment, and if that is a 6 significant product category, the DOE may 7 consider including a higher rating 8 temperature, that's not out of the picture. 9 But it seems that if it -- there is 10 not a significant market share that is sold at 11 a higher ambient -- that is sold to be 12 operated at a higher ambient condition, those 13 cases could apply for waivers, and that would 14 be the current direction from the Department. 15 DR. SACHS: Sarah, this is Harvey

16 Sachs.

17 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 18 DR. SACHS: I appreciate that, but 19 it's perhaps, reflecting that I've been too 20 terse, but it's not really responsive, that 21 the mapping does not have to be perfect. 22 It can be done on a volume basis,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 117 1 on an equipment type basis, and it only has to 2 assure the public that a piece of equipment 3 that's rated at no more than X-kWh per -- a 4 specific piece of equipment no more than X-kWh 5 per day on NSF II, is deemed to comply with 6 the comparable equipment. 7 As long as it's at least as good, 8 it's a marketing question, which way, the 9 manufacturer would want to test it. 10 MR. LLENZA: Charles Llenza, 11 Department of Energy. Let me understand this. 12 Suppose you test the equipment at 13 NSF II rating and it passes the energy 14 efficiency standards for DOE at that 80 15 degrees, then what you're saying is at that 16 point, that we should accept that as passing 17 our standards, pretty much. 18 DR. SACHS: Yes, and obviously, 19 there is a great deal of work to do, to get 20 down the path toward that destination, but it 21 really is a question of whether we're trying 22 to save energy and meet industry and customer

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 118 1 needs, or getting everything to fit on 2 Procrustes' bed, if I may draw on an analogy. 3 MR. LLENZA: So, the scenario, 4 Charles Llenza, Department of Energy, the 5 scenario is basically, for that particular 6 type of equipment, instead of having the two 7 tests, you would have the one test, which 8 would be the NSF test. They'd test it at the 9 NSF test, it would pass -- it would provide 10 the same standards that we provide, then we 11 say that that passes the test of 75, pretty 12 much, that's what you're saying, right? 13 DR. SACHS: I would rather phrase 14 this -- and again, I'm speculating, because 15 the right line between equipment classes is 16 just as clear an issue here. 17 But I'm suggesting that it sounds 18 to me like the NSF II is a disclosure, rather 19 than having a minimum standard, so that for 20 some specific equipment, if the score is 21 better than `x' on NSF II, it is deemed to 22 meet the DOE requirement for the corresponding

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 119 1 equipment, which might be `y'. 2 So, it's an alternative rating 3 method that is deemed to be in compliance. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Before I take your 5 comment, Massoud, Dan, you were nodding your 6 head in agreement. Do you wish to comment 7 here? You don't need to. Massoud, you're

8 next. 9 MR. NESHAN: Yes, Massoud Neshan, 10 Southern Store Fixtures. 11 Harvey, you are saying deemed to 12 comply. Comply with what? There is nothing 13 to comply with, with the standard -- when you 14 have a Type II display equipment. You have not 15 established energy efficiency standards for 16 Type II. Therefore, there is nothing to 17 comply with. 18 DR. SACHS: Absolutely, I'm sorry. 19 Let's assume that for a particular piece of 20 equipment, under NSF II, that its volume, its 21 class of equipment, there is the record -- the 22 revealed kWh per day on NSF II is 10 kWh per

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 120 1 day. 2 The same piece of equipment, had it 3 been tested under NSF, would give some 4 different -- under the DOE rule, or let's call 5 it the AHRI/ASHRAE rule, might give some other 6 number that does have a maximum energy 7 consumption associated with it, and the 8 question I'm asking DOE is whether a mapping 9 can be provided that says, if you use less 10 than seven or less than 10 kWh per day, on NSF 11 II, you are deemed to comply with the 12 ASHRAE/AHRI/DOE test procedure. 13 So, we have an alternative 14 compliance method, based on a different test 15 procedure.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me hear from 17 Satish, here. Go ahead. 18 DR. BAPANAPALLI: Satish 19 Bapanapalli, PNNL. Currently, DOE's position 20 is that NSF Type II can be tested at -- under 21 certain conditions. That is the current 22 position, but --

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 121 1 DR. SACHS: But that wasn't the 2 question. 3 DR. BAPANAPALLI: No, but it is 4 giving -- but your suggestion is duly noted, 5 and I think it's more than a matter of just -- 6 it's more than a technical matter. 7 I think there are some areas for 8 consideration that need to be taken. So, we 9 will consider your suggestion. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, I'm going to 11 keep us moving on, here. 12 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles 13 Llenza, the Department of Energy. 14 What would the thoughts of the 15 group, of the stakeholders here, be if instead 16 of testing at 75, we went to 80, and tested at

17 80?

18 MR. NESHAN: No. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: For the record, that 20 wasn't Massoud, and now, Karim, do you wish to 21 go first? No, Charlie, go ahead. 22 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 122 1 Manufacturing. I don't believe you're going 2 to see any -- a few percentage difference. 3 You'll probably a seven to 10 percent, maybe 4 15 percent maximum difference in energy 5 consumption, if you went up five degrees. 6 They're too close together to make that much 7 difference. 8 What I am hearing here is that 9 again, we're coming back to this adverse 10 condition and Sarah mentioned it before, that 11 there is an option here, that we can go around 12 it. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, want to

14 comment? 15 MR. COUSINS: No, I was going to 16 make the same comment that Charlie did. 17 What we find is a five degree 18 temperature difference in the energy 19 consumption is really, even smaller than that. 20 What's impactful is the relative 21 humidity, not the temperature. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan, you want in

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 123 1 here? 2 DR. MANOLE: Dan Manole with 3 Hussmann, reiterate what I said earlier. It's 4 not that much about the difference between the 5 two energy ratings. What I'm concerned is 6 with the fact that we need to repeat the test 7 at the different conditions, bring the lab to 8 a different test condition and test again. 9 That is the expense. It's the 10 burden that I'm addressing. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 12 DR. MANOLE: Otherwise, yes, I -- 13 it might be just a five percent difference. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Jon McHugh? 15 MR. McHUGH: So, would there be a 16 problem, especially for -- I mean, it sounds 17 like for Massoud, there could be a problem. 18 But if, as an alternative, so, the 19 standard is ARI, but if you so chose to, use 20 NSF II, you'd only have to test once, and 21 actually, the state is -- or the country is 22 potentially getting, you know, this five or

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 124 1 three percent additional benefit that, you 2 know, if you exceeded the standard at this 3 higher temperature, there's this tiny 4 difference, anyway. 5 So, what would be the harm in 6 testing at this higher level, if you so chose 7 to, and then for someone like Massoud, who 8 said, "No, I've got this 30 percent difference 9 for my particular case," okay, well, that's 10 fine, you can go test at the lower ambient 11 condition and you can comply that way. It 12 seems like it would solve both sides' 13 problems. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Cousins?

15 MR. COUSINS: In the Coca Cola 16 system, we have just as many, actually, more 17 vending machines than we have commercial 18 refrigerators. 19 So, all the people that do our 20 manufacturing and testing, they're testing 21 both vending machines and refrigerators, and 22 the 75 degrees is a protocol for the testing

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 125 1 of vending machines. 2 So, what they would -- what they do 3 is, they maintain their chambers and their 4 test facilities, and they would have -- and 5 some of these facilities -- some of these are 6 limited. They only have one test room, for 7 example. 8 So, they would have to go back and 9 forth and for us, it would be more economical 10 and effective if we just had one condition.

11 MR. McHUGH: I see. What I was 12 proposing was an alternative. You would have 13 the test at both, it's just that if you wanted 14 to test at 75, great. If you wanted to test 15 at 80, great.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 17 MR. COUSINS: We would still have 18 to -- it's effective to operate the room at 19 one condition. We still would have to operate 20 it at 75 degrees for vending machines. 21 So, if you say -- and we wouldn't 22 go to 80 degrees to test a vending machine.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 126 1 MR. McHUGH: Right, it was for the 2 -- it was for this Type II, or NSF II. So, 3 for these folks that have these different 4 equipment, that they could choose to test at a 5 higher temperature, if they chose to, not that 6 they'd have to. You'd still be able to test

7 at 75. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Charlie, go

9 ahead. 10 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. 11 Maybe I should ask a clarifying question, 12 here. I'm misunderstanding. 13 Does someone who has certified 14 their equipment at NSF II's conditions, 15 actually have to test it there, or just 16 certify it there, that it can meet the 17 performance requirements at that level, at 18 that -- under those conditions? 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 20 MR. HON: All NSF testing is 21 witness tested and there's no just filling out 22 a form. They verify all testing.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 127 1 MR. STEPHENS: So, you do have to

2 test at 80 and all of that?

3 MR. HON: Yes. 4 MR. STEPHENS: Okay, so, 5 potentially, there could be a reduction in 6 testing burden, if you could just do that one 7 test, and also, use the results of that one 8 test to comply with the Federal standard. 9 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 10 Manufacturing. That is -- but the problem is 11 that under Federal standard, under -- not only 12 under regulation, but under law, ASHRAE, 13 basically, the test standard is the 72 14 standard, which is required -- especially for 15 the self-contained equipment. 16 So, it's -- we're mandated to do 17 that, anyway. 18 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, and I think 19 that's what -- I was under the impression that 20 we were discussing changing that, so that you

21 could do one or the other. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 128 1 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, again. 2 Historical data is very difficult, if you 3 suddenly make that change, where is your 4 baseline? 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Collin? 6 MR. WEBER: Collin Weber, Navigant 7 Consulting. So, just asking for clarification 8 from industry, so, we're talking largely about 9 self-contained units here, which are currently 10 required to meet the EPAct 2005 standards. 11 So, you're having to test at DOE, 12 currently, and then also, potentially, 13 voluntarily certifying some at NSF II, as

14 well. 15 So, we're not talking about any 16 incremental increase in burden, due to the 17 proposed amendments to the current DOE test 18 procedure, correct? 19 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. That's

20 correct. 21 MR. WEBER: Okay.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: I have note here

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 129 1 from someone online, who has identified 2 himself as Brian Jeanes, saying, simply, "No 3 to 80 degrees Fahrenheit testing." I don't 4 know who he represents. 5 Just thought we wanted to be 6 responsive to those folks that have joined us 7 via the web. Steve Cousins? 8 MR. COUSINS: With regard to test 9 burden, I guess those in the room who 10 manufacture cabinets for Coca Cola and for the 11 other beverage companies, we have our 12 requirements and our certification mandates on 13 these cabinet manufacturers, and they have to 14 do testing, based on our requirements, and we 15 have a 75 degree test requirement. 16 So, 75 -- I guess what I'm saying 17 is that 75 degree testing won't go away, even 18 if, you know, for government compliance 19 purposes, it's not required. They'll still 20 have to do the 75 degree test.

21 MR. HON: Massoud? 22 MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 130 1 Southern Store Fixtures. 2 I'd like to state again, once 3 again, the type of equipment that you are 4 talking about, you need to really distinguish 5 the different kinds. 6 When you are dealing with the cases 7 that have doors on them, glass or solid doors, 8 stainless steel, whatever material, these are 9 all insulated. You could have double-pane or 10 triple-pane glass doors. 11 The impact of the 80 degree 12 temperature on that is minimal, compared to 13 when you have an open case, or a case that has 14 single pane glass on it, like a service deli

15 or meat cases. 16 So, this issue of five percent or 17 six percent only is applicable to an insulated 18 door display case, and one -- when you walk 19 into a supermarket or convenience stores, you 20 see a lot of open display cases or single pane 21 glass. So, the impact is by far more that 22 what is being stated here.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 131 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 2 Harvey Sachs? 3 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 4 Betsy, I'm looking at column two of page 71597 5 of the relevant -- the relevant readings from 6 the Federal Register. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey, please say 8 the page again.

9 DR. SACHS: 71597. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 11 DR. SACHS: It's the second page of 12 the Federal Registers handed out this morning, 13 and at the bottom of the center column, it 14 says, "The test procedures determined to be 15 generally accepted industry testing procedures 16 or rating procedures developed or recognized 17 by ASHRAE or ANSI." 18 It is a summary, of course, but it 19 does not seem to say that there must be a 20 single set of rating methods for all classes 21 of commercial refrigeration equipment, and 22 that's the question that I think is the one

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 132 1 that I've put on the table, which is whether 2 for relevant classes of equipment, the NSF 3 rating method with an appropriate energy 4 criterion, is not -- cannot be acceptable as 5 an alternative to the AHRI/ASHRAE pair. That 6 distinctly is my question. Thank you. 7 MS. KOHL: I don't think it would 8 be prohibited by this language, but we would 9 need to consider whether it would be 10 appropriate. I think that's the point of this 11 meeting. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Betsy, thank 13 you. I think we've covered this one, now. 14 So, I'm going to encourage us to move on,

15 Sarah. 16 MS. WIDDER: Yes, thank you, all, 17 for your comments, and if you have further 18 comments, please submit them in written 19 comments and we will take them into 20 consideration. But we're going to move onto 21 other items of discussion. 22 The next item of discussion is

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 133 1 addressing energy conservation features and 2 I'm going to start out by discussing the 3 proposed provisions to address night curtains 4 in the test procedure updates. 5 This is just starting out with the 6 DOE's developed definition of a night curtain. 7 DOE determined that a night curtain 8 is designed to be used on an open case and 9 typically made of an insulated material. It 10 is designed to be used when the merchandise -- 11 merchandising establishment is closed or has 12 low occupancy periods, and can decrease 13 infiltration conductive and radiative heat 14 transfer to the case and thus, decrease energy 15 consumption. 16 Taking those things into account, 17 DOE did not want to be prescriptive in saying 18 that only one type of device could be a night 19 curtain, and developed this definition that 20 they determined to be broad enough to cover 21 all technologies that would serve this 22 utility, and I'll read the definition aloud

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 134 1 and then, I'll take any comments on DOE's 2 proposed definition. 3 "A night curtain means a device 4 that is temporarily employed to decrease air 5 exchange and heat transfer between the 6 refrigerated case and the surrounding 7 environment."

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on the 9 definition? Massoud? 10 MR. NESHAN: Two comments. I have, 11 actually, a comment regarding the very first 12 at the top, you have `designed to be used in 13 open case'. That is not correct. 14 It should be said -- it should be 15 stated that it's designed to be used on a 16 vertically -- open vertical display case. 17 If you have a semi-vertical or you 18 have a circular case, it's impossible, open 19 case, it's impossible to use a night curtain 20 in those instances. 21 So, it's mostly on the vertical 22 display cases that a night curtain is used.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 135 1 MR. BROOKMAN: They don't use night 2 curtains in horizontal applications?3 MR. NESHAN: Horizontal, but semi4 vertical is more difficult, because of the 5 difference, it sags in and interferes with the 6 air flow in the display case. 7 There are some other problems that 8 arise from when you use a night curtain, when 9 the case is not fully horizontal or vertical. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 11 MS. WIDDER: It is the DOE's 12 understanding that night curtains can be used 13 on all open displays, and if you have 14 information that's contradictory to that, I 15 would welcome you to submit it. 16 MR. NESHAN: Okay, second, an air - 17 - there is -- you can also blow air and call 18 it air curtain. That's also referred to as 19 air curtain. Is that acceptable under this 20 definition?

21 MS. WIDDER: That would not be a 22 night curtain, because air curtains -- it's

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 136 1 the DOE's understanding that air curtains -- 2 are typically permanently employed, in that 3 they operate all the time -- 4 MR. NESHAN: No, no, no, I'm 5 referring to a temporary being used only at 6 night. 7 MS. WIDDER: A temporary air 8 curtain?

9 MR. NESHAN: Correct.

10 MS. WIDDER: Then I -- I had not 11 considered that, but given the definition, as 12 long as it's a device that's temporarily 13 employed to decrease infiltration and heat 14 loss to the case, I believe that would fit the 15 definition. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: There is such a 17 thing, as you describe there. There is an air 18 curtain that is employed for night use to save 19 -- to diminish air infiltration.

20 MR. NESHAN: Yes. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Charlie? 22 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 137 1 Manufacturing. There are semi-vertical air 2 curtains -- night curtains. They are more 3 rigid, but they do exist. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 5 Other comments on this definition? Okay. 6 MS. WIDDER: Okay, next, I'm going 7 to talk about the DOE's proposed background 8 approach for the night curtain provisions. 9 DOE understands that it's important 10 to capture the differences in energy use 11 reduction from different types of night 12 curtains or different technologies, as Massoud 13 mentioned, even a temporarily employed air 14 curtain could fit this definition. 15 And clearly, those different types 16 of technologies would have large performance 17 disparities, based on a number of factors, the 18 case dimensions or the type of material used, 19 and in order to capture all of those 20 differences and appropriately credit the more 21 effective or less effective technologies, DOE 22 determined that a physical test would be most

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 138 1 appropriate to determine the energy use 2 reduction associated with night curtains. 3 The proposed test method, which 4 would be a physical test method, follows the 5 methodology of the door opening requirements 6 in ASHRAE 72. These would be that the night 7 curtain would -- on open display cases for 8 which a night curtain was permanently 9 installed, the night curtain would be drawn 10 for a total of six hours, three hours after 11 the start of a defrost period, similar to when 12 the door openings would start in the ASHRAE 72 13 test, and upon the completion of the six hour 14 time period, then, the night curtain would be 15 raised again, for the completion -- the 16 duration of the test. 17 The six hour time period was chosen 18 because it was believed to be representative 19 of use in industry and of the use in a store

20 that's closed for 24 hours -- or closed for 21 six hours or eight hours, when taking into 22 account stocking times and other reasons that

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 139 1 the curtain would not be down, even though the 2 store had limited occupancy. 3 DOE requests comment on the 4 proposed incorporation of night curtains into 5 the DOE test procedure, and especially the 6 appropriateness of the six hour time period. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 8 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 9 Manufacturing. ASHRAE 72 committee has looked 10 at this very issue, and we agree with 11 everything, except for the six hours. 12 Due to standardization, the 13 committee itself voted previously to go for 14 eight hours of night curtain coverage, only 15 because it would be very similar to the 16 existing testing, which is eight hours of door 17 openings. No other reason, beyond that. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: When you say, the 19 committee voted on it, does that represent -- 20 is that actionable or is that -- 21 MR. HON: There is a final vote on 22 the entire package, once it's finalized. But

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 140 1 at this time, that is in the proposal for the

2 next round. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm trying to get a 4 sense of whether the industry is consistently 5 behind eight hours or whether they are spread. 6 MR. HON: It was highly debatable. 7 We just took a standardized time. It was 8 highly debatable, which way we wanted to go. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: I see, okay. That's 10 what I wanted to find out. Karim, go ahead. 11 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I 12 guess, a question for Sarah. You know, why 13 did you pick six hours? 14 MS. WIDDER: We picked six hour -- 15 the DOE picked six hours because it was what 16 we had found used in studies, across the 17 board, had been using six hours, and also, 18 when you look at the period of closure for 19 stores that are not open 24 hours, that was 20 representative. 21 I know that many stores are also 22 closed for eight hours, but there is reasons

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 141 1 that the night curtain would not drawn for the 2 entire eight hour period, and so, we chose six 3 hours to be both representative and slightly 4 conservative. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: And perhaps, less

6 burdensome? 7 MS. WIDDER: I believe the burden 8 would be pretty much the same for the two time 9 periods. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Charlie? 11 MR. HON: Okay, Charlie Hon, True 12 Manufacturing. It was consensus that it would 13 be no more burdensome because during testing 14 cycle, we would force a defrost cycle 15 overnight, start the test three hours later, 16 like we do every other test --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. 18 MR. HON: -- and eight hours is 19 standard condition, for us. So, basically, we 20 trigger it, so that the operator comes in at 21 that start of the shift, starts the test and 22 by the end of the shift, he's already turned

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 142 1 off the test. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: So, we received one 3 comment on the six hour test period. Other

4 comments? Massoud? 5 MR. NESHAN: Yes, Massoud Neshan, 6 Southern Store Fixtures. 7 Question, why do you pick three 8 hours after the start, because that creates a 9 problem. There are certain cases in the 10 industry that they are defrosted every two 11 hours. What do you do with that, then? 12 MS. WIDDER: This was chosen to be 13 consistent with the ASHRAE 72 test, when they 14 begin door openings.

15 MR. NESHAN: I understand. The 16 door -- when you have a door, the doors 17 usually have one or two defrosts per day. But 18 in open case, that's a different story. 19 There are more -- there is a higher 20 number of defrosts per day, and at least there 21 is couple of models I'm aware of, in the 22 industry, that are defrosted every two hours.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 143 1 That would create a problem with that.

2 MS. WIDDER: That's true. If 3 that's the case, I would welcome your comments 4 and suggestions, Massoud. 5 MR. NESHAN: Okay.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments on 7 this comment box and particularly, the 8 appropriateness of the proposed six hour test 9 period? Yes, Harvey? 10 DR. SACHS: Massoud, please help 11 me. Harvey Sachs. Please help me with my 12 understanding. 13 My inference, from your comment, is 14 that the two hour defrost is a fixed cycle 15 corresponding to a fixed timer for defrost, 16 rather than an adaptive control and that under 17 the 75/55 test conditions, or some other test 18 conditions, a two hour defrost might not be 19 required for proper operation of that cabinet. 20 MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan. It is 21 fixed, it is on a fixed timer. Every two 22 hours or every three hours or whatever the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 144 1 design is, every six hours, the case would be 2 defrosted, period, whether it requires it or

3 not. 4 DR. SACHS: Okay, thank you, and 5 with all due respect, I'm not sure why 6 standards that are implemented in 2016 should 7 reflect the baseline energy requirements of a 8 unit that does not have an adaptive control. 9 MR. NESHAN: If you can find one 10 that works all the time, let me know. We will 11 use it. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Massoud, 13 also. I have a comment from someone online. 14 Bruce Hierlmeier from Zero Zone. He asks the 15 question, "Does this mean a night curtain

16 can't be used on a doored case to reduce 17 energy loss from the doors during night 18 operation?" 19 Who would answer that? Yes, 20 Satish? 21 DR. BAPANAPALLI: This is Satish 22 Bapanapalli, PNNL. Like we said, industry can

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 145 1 use any design option to achieve the energy 2 efficiency. 3 So, night curtain on a -- it is 4 only for -- this requirement is only for open 5 cases, the test procedure. But if you want to 6 -- if you -- let me think it over. 7 MS. WIDDER: Sorry, I'll just 8 answer that, quickly. 9 DR. BAPANAPALLI: Okay. 10 MS. WIDDER: It's my understanding 11 that the night curtains are most effective on 12 open cases, and are used most prevalently on 13 open cases, and so, this design -- this test 14 procedure requirement, right now, is designed 15 only for open cases. 16 I'm not sure how the night curtain 17 requirement and the door opening requirements 18 in ASHRAE would be able to happen 19 concurrently, since the door openings would 20 typically -- are representative of a day of 21 use, and the night curtain requirements, in 22 this case, are night time use.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 146 1 So, I think from the DOE's 2 perspective, it seemed representative to keep 3 the night curtain requirement only to door -- 4 to open cases, and the door opening 5 requirements to door cases. 6 If the person on the webinar would 7 like to submit comments that the DOE should do 8 otherwise, we'd welcome them to do that. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 10 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 11 Manufacturing. I have seen this done. It is 12 very rare, but it does save a little bit of 13 energy for the store, but I don't know why it 14 needs to be considered in the activities here. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Charlie? 16 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. 17 I'm going to have to go back and see what our 18 data says. I think we may have a substantial 19 amount of field data from grocery stores and 20 other kinds of refrigeration establishments. 21 But my answer to whether six hours 22 is appropriate would depend a little bit on

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 147 1 how you use the data, and in this case, there 2 is -- I haven't seen, so far in our discussion 3 today, how you propose to use this, and I 4 think there was a provision in the NOPR that 5 said that you could test with or without night 6 curtains and if you didn't comply without 7 them, you could simply use night curtains with 8 those models and comply with them, but you 9 would have to sell them with night curtains. 10 Now, what we found in our data, I 11 think, was that having night curtains and 12 using them are two entirely different things, 13 for a couple of reasons. 14 One is because store hours change 15 and operations change and people change, and 16 the other thing we found, I think, was that 17 the life time of the curtains was 18 significantly shorter than the life time of 19 the equipment, and that many of these places 20 were disinclined to go after the parts or 21 repair these things, once they had failed, and 22 so, even if they started out being used early

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 148 1 on, they ended up not being used. 2 And so, you know, my inclination, 3 if we were to give them any credit at all, 4 which I have my doubts about, would be to 5 derate this thing from eight hours and not use 6 the full value to reflect the fact that in 7 many cases, they won't be used and in some 8 cases, they won't be used for all that long, 9 relative to the life of the equipment. 10 So, we're quite skeptical about the 11 proposal, so far, not the methodology for 12 measuring it. We're fine with measuring it 13 during the course of a test, if you want to 14 measure the effect of the night curtains on 15 the energy use of the equipment, but in terms 16 of using it to qualify the equipment or to 17 meeting the standard, that's another issue, 18 all together.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Charles Llenza? 20 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles 21 Llenza, Department of Energy.

22 If there was -- we welcome those

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 149 1 studies, the information, so that we could 2 look at it. If there is a degrading factor of 3 energy savings over time, based on the life of 4 the equipment, maybe there is a way of us 5 factoring that in, in terms of the energy 6 conservation standard. 7 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, I'll dig for 8 that, when I go back home, and see if I can 9 get that to you. It may be even available 10 online. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay,

12 Sarah. 13 MS. WIDDER: All right, that 14 concludes the discussion of night curtains. 15 I'm now going to talk about the provisions for 16 calculating the energy consumption or energy 17 use reduction associated with lighting 18 occupancy sensors and scheduled controls, and 19 start out again, with the definition. 20 DOE developed these definitions to 21 differentiate between a lighting scheduled 22 controller that works on a time clock and an

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 150 1 occupancy sensor that works based on occupancy 2 in the near area. 3 So, a lighting control would be 4 defined as an electronic device that 5 automatically adjusts the lighting in a 6 display case at scheduled times throughout the 7 day, and lighting occupancy sensor means an 8 electronic device that uses passive infrared 9 ultra-sonic or other motion sensing technology 10 to detect the presence of a customer or 11 employee, allowing the lights within the 12 equipment to be turned off or dimmed when no 13 motion is detected in the sensors' coverage

14 area. 15 I request comment, or DOE requests 16 comment on those definitions. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs? 18 DR. SACHS: Sarah, it's a little 19 picky, but I'm not sure what word `electronic' 20 adds to either of these definitions. 21 MS. WIDDER: Thank you, Harvey. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, John?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 151 1 MR. DAVIS: Yes, John Davis with 2 Traulsen. I was wondering why time, like time 3 of day, isn't factored in, and maybe I'm 4 missing it, because you could have a schedule, 5 rather than an occupancy, but you could set a 6 schedule where it's closed 12:00 to 6:00, or 7 something like that. 8 MS. WIDDER: I believe that's 9 captured in the definition of lighting 10 control, which would be a device that 11 automatically adjusts the lighting in a 12 display case at scheduled time throughout the 13 day. 14 MR. DAVIS: Got it, got it. 15 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 16 MR. DAVIS: Sorry. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Karim? 18 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 19 Based on this definition, you will not accept 20 a system with just a normal switch, right? 21 MS. WIDDER: No, that would not be 22 included as a lighting device that would

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 152 1 achieve an energy reduction. 2 DR. AMRANE: Okay, but for night 3 curtain, you will accept the fact that they 4 will have to do it manually, but for lighting, 5 somehow, it has to be electronic, it has to be

6 -- has to have a sensor? 7 MS. WIDDER: That is currently 8 what's proposed in the test procedure. 9 DR. AMRANE: Okay. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 11 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles 12 Llenza, Department of Energy. Welcome

13 comments. Make a comment.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Massoud? 15 MR. NESHAN: Yes, Massoud Neshan, 16 Southern Store Fixtures. 17 Obviously, I like having a -- some 18 kind of a lighting control or night curtain. 19 We are the component manufacturers. We can 20 supply components on these display cases. 21 But is there -- unfortunately, the 22 true stakeholders are not here, and those are

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 153 1 the end users, supermarket operators or 2 convenience store operators. 3 We can supply the lighting 4 controls. What if they are not using them? 5 What happens to that? I mean, energy is 6 spent, producing those devices, you know, all 7 the issues we have with the global warming, 8 impact that manufacturing these components 9 have. What happens then? 10 I mean, you are forcing 11 manufacturers, in a way, to do this, but there 12 is no guarantee that the end users are using - 13 - are you going to enforce this on the end 14 users, as well? 15 MS. WIDDER: I don't think that's 16 within the scope of this discussion today, but 17 providing stakeholders the opportunity to use 18 these devices, I would argue, is valuable. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Collin? 20 MR. WEBER: Collin Weber, Navigant 21 Consulting. DOE has traditionally been in the 22 business of making and enforcing manufacturing

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 154 1 standards, as opposed to use standards. 2 Currently, right now, someone could 3 buy a self-contained refrigerator with a solid 4 door, and leave the door open all day. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey, do you have 6 a comment? No? We have a comment, or a 7 question from someone online. It's lengthy, 8 so, I'm going to read it. 9 This is from Ira Richter from 10 Heatcraft, "You provide an example of night 11 curtains, in which a display case can be sold 12 with or without night curtains, page 71607,

13 left column." 14 "The unit could be sold with night 15 curtains if the base unit, paren, without 16 night curtains, close paren, satisfies energy 17 requirements without additional testing." 18 "Would this apply to other, more 19 energy efficient components? For example, if 20 a self-contained unit with a PSC condenser fan 21 motor would meet the energy requirements, can 22 the same unit with more efficient ECM motors

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 155 1 be sold without additional testing or does 2 this only apply to night curtains?" 3 MS. WIDDER: This only applies to 4 night curtains, as proposed in the NOPR. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks for 6 that question. Charlie Stephens? 7 MR. STEPHENS: To address that, 8 too, I think there is -- eventually, the test 9 method doesn't just establish that you meet a 10 minimum. You're ultimately going to report on 11 the kilowatt hours per day for this, and 12 certify that number to DOE. It's not just 13 that you're -- you're saying that, "Well, we 14 meet the minimum." 15 You're actually going to have to 16 label this thing in a catalog, or whatever, 17 and you're going to be certifying a value. 18 So, if you sell a different product 19 with a different feature, then it's going to 20 have to have whatever number it has, whatever 21 it’s tested at. 22 If you have to test it with night

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 156 1 curtains to qualify, then I presume the number 2 will be whatever that test produced. If it 3 qualified without them, I guess you'd report 4 that number, and if you sold it with night 5 curtains, I don't know whether you'd report 6 the number with the night curtains as 7 different, as an option, for instance, if you 8 certified it without it. 9 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles 10 Llenza, Department of Energy. 11 That's part of the certification 12 requirements. So, when you put these design 13 options on the piece of equipment, you have to 14 certify, at some point. 15 So, I assume there is scalability 16 factors you could use, but you know, something 17 like an ECM motor change, something more 18 efficient, you'd probably have to certify that 19 independently, as opposed to the lower level. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Cousins? 21 MR. COUSINS: I'm going to comment 22 on the definition.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 157 1 Under the occupancy sensor 2 definition, I would suggest that we have the 3 term `automatic' or `automatically', where it 4 says `turned off', equipment to be 5 automatically turned off or automatically 6 dimmed. 7 MS. WIDDER: Thank you. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Karim? 9 DR. AMRANE: I guess going over 10 what Charlie said, and this certification that 11 you have to do to DOE, I mean, the proposal, 12 as I read it in Federal Register, says that, 13 you know, if the unit passes the minimum 14 Federal standard without night curtain, then 15 you don't have to retest. 16 But in fact, if you have to certify 17 to DOE, your rating with the night curtain, 18 you do have to test. 19 MS. WIDDER: We'll discuss that 20 more later. I think the crux of the issue is 21 for units that are sold as with optional night 22 curtains.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 158 1 In our -- in the DOE's 2 investigation of the market, it seemed that a 3 lot of cases are sold with night curtains as 4 an optional add-on, as opposed to an integral 5 piece of the unit, which would be what would

6 be the case for ECM motors or the PSC motors. 7 That's an integral piece of the CRE 8 and it's typically not optional. 9 In this case, with night curtains, 10 to minimize the burden on manufacturers, if a 11 unit is sold -- if a unit complies with the 12 energy conservation standard, as tested 13 without night curtains, that unit can still be14 sold with night curtains as an optional add15 on, without retesting with night curtains. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 17 DR. AMRANE: Sorry, Karim. But 18 would you allow the manufacturers to, let's 19 say, advertise or claim the energy savings, 20 without having to certify to DOE? That's the 21 question, here. 22 MS. WIDDER: No, the manufacturer,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 159 1 if they wanted to publish and use the energy 2 rating, with a night curtain -- which 3 perceivably, they would have to test in order 4 to know what that number was, in order to 5 promote it -- they would have to test and they 6 could certify that, and they would have to 7 certify that to DOE, as well. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? No? Okay, 9 thanks for the clarification. 10 More comments on this definition, 11 these definition issues? Okay. 12 MS. WIDDER: Do you want to take it

13 now? 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, okay. 15 MS. WIDDER: I believe we have 16 another comment from online, or question. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: So, this is a 18 comment from -- I don't know who this is from. 19 Okay, "Most equipment has on/off 20 switches to turn lights off and on. We assume 21 that end users will pull down night curtains. 22 Why do end users have to pay extra to get a

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 160 1 timer, to automatically turn off lights at 2 night? Can't we assume the end user will turn 3 lights off at night," and this is Bruce 4 Hierlmeier, again, from Zero Zone. 5 MS. WIDDER: Thank you for those 6 comments. The DOE will take them into 7 consideration. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Steve Cousins? 9 MR. COUSINS: I'm sorry, I have a 10 question about our discussion on night 11 curtains and certification. I know it may be 12 outside of the scope of this meeting. 13 But has it already been -- has it 14 been determined, in the certification piece 15 that's being worked on now, that you would 16 have to certify a cabinet with night curtains, 17 even if it met the energy conservation 18 standards without night curtains? Has that 19 been established already?

20 MS. WIDDER: That has not been 21 established yet, since that's not part of the 22 current energy conservation standard, or even

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 161 1 part of the current test procedures, yet. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

3 MR. HON: One other comment. 4 ASHRAE 72 standard requires that all factory 5 installed equipment be in the `on' position 6 during testing. 7 So, you have to be cognizant, if 8 you have a manual switch for lighting, it will

9 be tested 24 hours on. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stephens? 11 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, for our 12 purposes, out in the northwest, if you were 13 participating in a program, for instance, 14 that, you know, was providing incentives for 15 equipment that was 10 or 15 percent, or 16 whatever, more efficient than required by the 17 standard, you would definitely have to have 18 some sort of a certified value for that, in 19 order for us to pick that up. 20 ENERGY STAR is going to require the 21 same thing. You're going to have to have some 22 sort of a certified value, and therefore, for

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 162 1 those purposes, yes, you're going to have to

2 test. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, final 4 comments? Okay. 5 Ms. WIDDER: All right, moving onto 6 the background and approach for the lighting 7 occupancy sensors and scheduled controls 8 provision. 9 DOE decided to incorporate these 10 provisions because as LED lighting is becoming 11 more common, that lends itself to more rapid 12 on and off switching, or dimming, which was 13 not possible before with fluorescent lighting, 14 and DOE determined that this was becoming more 15 common in the market place and should be 16 available, as a technology option in energy 17 conservation standard. 18 DOE also understands that lighting 19 -- the energy reduction due to lighting 20 occupancy sensors and scheduled controls is 21 two-fold, both the direct lighting reduction 22 from the lights turning off or dimming, and

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 163 1 the reduction in heat load on the 2 refrigeration system, for the lighting which 3 is within the case. 4 Because this is -- it could be 5 burdensome to test the cases multiple times, 6 with lights on or lights off, and as Charlie 7 Hon mentioned ASHRAE 72 specifies all 8 components in the `on' position, so, lighting 9 on for the entire test. DOE is proposing an 10 analytical method to calculate the energy 11 reduction, due to these lighting devices, and 12 I'm going to talk about that more, now. 13 The proposed lighting occupancy 14 sensor and control test methods is outlined in 15 more detail, in the Federal Register Notice 16 and if you have any questions about those 17 equations or the specifics of the test 18 procedure, I'd be happy to take them now, but 19 I'm just going to, in the interest of time, 20 talk about the method, which is -- consists of 21 three parts. 22 The first part would be to

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 164 1 calculate the direct energy use of the 2 lighting with the occupancy sensors and 3 scheduled controls installed. This would 4 require default assumptions about the time the 5 lighting is off, due to those devices, and 6 then also, requires the input of the lighting 7 power from the AHRI or ASHRAE test procedure. 8 The second step would be to 9 calculate the reduced refrigeration load, when 10 the energy use device is in use, and this 11 requires default specifications for the energy 12 efficiency ratio of the compressor. So, how 13 much actual direct energy reduction you'll get 14 because of the reduced energy load on the

15 case. 16 And just the fact that not all of 17 the heat produced from the lights will impact 18 that compressor load. 19 And the third point or the third 20 part of this is to calculate the daily energy 21 consumption, based on those two factors, and 22 that will happen differently in self-contained

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 165 1 equipment versus remote condensing 2 refrigeration equipment. 3 I'm just going to talk briefly 4 about those assumptions that I mentioned on 5 the previous slide, the assumptions for the 6 time the lighting is off and the EER of the 7 compressor and the fact that all of the heat 8 produced will not impact the compressor load,

9 and then I'll take comments on those. 10 To determine the time the lighting 11 is off or dimmed, due to scheduled controls or 12 occupancy sensors, DOE developed these default 13 assumptions. If only scheduled lighting 14 controls are installed, the time the lighting 15 is off due to controllers or dimmed due to 16 controllers, depending on whether the 17 controllers dimmed or turned off the lights, 18 would be eight hours, typical of the time a 19 store is closed, if a store is not operating

20 24 hours. 21 If only lighting occupancy sensors 22 are installed, the time the lighting sensors

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 166 1 would turn off the lights or dim the lights, 2 depending on whether the lighting occupancy 3 sensors dimmed or turned off the lights, is 4 determined to be 10.8 hours, and that's a 5 little bit more than the time that the stores 6 are typically closed, if it's a -- not a 24 7 hour store, because -- the DOE developed this 8 number from several studies that the lighting 9 occupancy sensor -- the occupancy sensors also 10 turn off the lights at times when the store is 11 open, but they have limited occupancy. 12 And if both scheduled occupancy 13 sensors and -- scheduled controls and lighting 14 occupancy sensors are installed, these numbers 15 would not be added together. Instead, the 16 maximum is 10.8 hours and a manufacturer would 17 use eight hours for the scheduled controls and 18 2.8 hours for lighting occupancy sensors, to 19 total 10.8 hours of off or dimmed time. 20 As I said before, the time period 21 was chosen to approximate typical usage in the 22 field, and it was based on studies that were

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 167 1 published about DOE -- about lighting 2 occupancy sensor use, and specifically, DOE 3 relied on a pilot project that was conducted 4 through the DOE Gateway Program. 5 For the default assumption related 6 to compressor energy efficiency ratio, DOE 7 developed these three numbers that are divided 8 based on the operating temperature of the

9 case.

10 These numbers are based on the EER 11 values from the 2009 rulemaking, and are only 12 representative of compressor EER. They don't 13 represent fan energy use. 14 But since it's just a default 15 assumption, and would be consistent across all 16 cases, DOE determined that these would be 17 appropriate for the different classes, and I'd

18 welcome manufacturers to comment on those 19 numbers, if they believe they're inaccurate. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Is it appropriate to 21 mention this attachment, here? 22 MS. WIDDER: Sure, I will mention

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 168 1 that. I mentioned that there is more detailed 2 calculations on this methodology, that are 3 outlined in the Federal Register Notice, and 4 there is also a page of the equations that has 5 come in today's packet, and is also posted on 6 the website.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Charles Llenza? 8 MR. LLENZA: In the back-up slides, 9 there is details of these equations, and we've 10 provided a one-pager that's a cross-reference 11 with the notice, in terms of the equations,

12 and we would welcome comments from the

13 stakeholders on that. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: And that's, of 15 course, in your packet today. That's there, 16 with the Federal Register Notice and the like.

17 Massoud? 18 MR. NESHAN: Yes, Massoud Neshan, 19 Southern Store Fixtures. 20 Why are you fixing the EER for 21 medium, low and ice cream temperature? 22 Whereas, the AHRI, it's Standard 1200. They

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 169 1 are very specific as to, what is the operating 2 condition of display case, and there is a 3 specific EER for the condensing unit 4 associated with that set point. 5 MS. WIDDER: We did this because 6 that table in AHRI is developed for remote7 condensing units, and this is for self8 contained units, only. 9 So, the EER in -- that's developed 10 in Table 1 in AHRI is not representative of 11 the energy efficiency ratio for self-contained 12 compressors. 13 So, since we did not have a great 14 deal of data, we developed this, based on the 15 energy efficiency ratios of compressors that 16 we had gathered from the 2009 rulemaking. 17 MR. NESHAN: Basically, you're -- 18 this is Massoud Neshan, again. Basically, 19 you're penalizing people who have more 20 efficient display cases. 21 MS. WIDDER: Well, if you would 22 like to use a different EER, or you believe

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 170 1 that these are not appropriate, I would 2 encourage you to submit comments about what

3 would be a better method. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stephens? 5 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens, 6 yes, I'll have some more comments later, and 7 I'll comment on this, of course, but I'm 8 having a little trouble with EER numbers 9 carried onto the second decimal place, in a 10 class that's defined by medium, low and ice

11 cream. 12 You know, especially since between 13 now and 2016, when whatever standard set goes 14 into effect, those numbers, even if you were 15 to use average numbers, would change, at least 16 in the first decimal place, if not more, since 17 they're only going up. 18 And then, you don't include the fan 19 energy that's used for the cooling side, I 20 guess, because you don't have it, but what21 this does is create a fairly consistent over22 credit for any heating load that is not

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 171 1 imposed on the case. 2 I mean, the less efficient the 3 compressor, the more credit you get. That's 4 still, not a very good regime to set up, just 5 in general and principle, but again, I'm 6 having trouble with two decimal places in this 7 kind of a regime and will say so. 8 I think there is a way around it, 9 but it doesn't have to do with your 10 methodology, which I think we'll talk about

11 later. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Cousins? 13 MR. COUSINS: Why not give -- why 14 not give the manufacturer the option of either 15 creating empirical testing -- I mean, hard 16 test data or the calculation method? 17 I mean, why not say, "You don't 18 have to test, you can do a calculation." Why 19 not give the manufacturer option, of whether 20 it wants to test or do a calculation? 21 MS. WIDDER: That is an option that 22 the DOE could consider.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 172 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs? 2 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. I 3 really am following up on comments from 4 Charlie and from Mr. Cousins. I'm not sure 5 how this default is to be used. 6 Is this to allow an easy way and 7 the manufacturer can, it is assumed, show 8 compliance to a higher level of lighting 9 performance and a lower level of heat 10 projection into the case? What's the meaning 11 of the term `default' here? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you asking Steve 13 or you're asking Sarah? 14 DR. SACHS: I'm not asking Steve. 15 I'm asking Sarah. 16 MS. WIDDER: Yes, these assumptions 17 -- the meaning of default here would just be 18 to supply a number that would be consistent 19 across all cases in that temperature class,

20 that could be used to calculate the reduced 21 energy consumption. 22 You can see where it's used in this

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 173 1 equation, here, and it's not going to be a 2 significant impact, the decimals or the -- the 3 magnitude is really, the more important thing 4 in this tableis the fact that it's consistent 5 across the temperature class. 6 DR. SACHS: Sarah, this is Harvey 7 Sachs, again, and I certainly am not an expert 8 in this industry, but as I think about the 9 Department's own projections for changes in 10 efficiency and LED over the period that's 11 important for this rulemaking, because if I 12 think about alternative ways of supplying 13 light with perhaps, fiber bundles and external 14 sources that put no heat into the cabinet, 15 what I'm seeing here is a proposed system that 16 frightens me, in not providing the vendors of 17 this -- of these components with a way to 18 differentiate the performance of their 19 advanced components for the manufacturers of 20 the cases, themselves. 21 How can I demonstrate, as a 22 lighting manufacturer, that I've got something

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 174 1 that will give you credit on the DOE test for 2 your display case? 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Dan? 4 DR. MANOLE: Dan Manole with 5 Hussmann Ingersoll Rand. 6 I found that analysis really 7 detailed and the instructions are clear, but 8 we can debate about the value of the energy 9 efficiency, but otherwise, it's really clear. 10 What I think we need to add is some 11 in-store -- ensure reputability of the test 12 results. DOE or the certification agency will 13 perform a test on the same unit. I will 14 probably have to report not only the energy 15 rating, but what is the -- what do you call 16 it, here? The rated power of lights. 17 So, all this smoke, this is all 18 information that will have to be reported to 19 the DOE, which will -- it's not a big deal. 20 We will increase the number of that, but the 21 size of the table, that needs to be -- we have 22 to make -- include in the process and the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 175 1 procedure, that that information has to be 2 submitted. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Dan, from your 4 comment, I couldn't understand -- I couldn't 5 discern if you were making a recommendation

6 there.

7 DR. MANOLE: I made the 8 recommendation to -- I mean, to complete the 9 procedure, this test method, indicating how a 10 third party, when will repeat that test, they 11 will be able to count -- to reach exactly the 12 same value for the energy saving by this

13 method. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, okay. 15 DR. MANOLE: So, it's something 16 not, it's not completely written. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stephens? 18 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. 19 Could I get some of the manufacturers who are 20 here, just to comment on just how difficult it 21 would be to run the lighting in their 22 programmed mode, in accordance with the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 176 1 schedule prescribed during the test? 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 3 MR. HON: That's done every day. 4 All testing is done with the lighting on. 5 MR. STEPHENS: Well, I mean, we're 6 not talking about lighting on. We're talking 7 about turning it off for 10 -- you know, 10.8

8 hours. 9 MR. HON: I think that's what Steve 10 had made the comment about, previously, as to 11 allow the manufacturers to have the secondary 12 option of actual test results. 13 If we wish to expose ourselves to 14 additional costs, we could absorb that and get

15 a better number. 16 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, I guess I'm 17 asking just how much cost -- how much cost is 18 there? I mean, you know, it's just basically 19 putting a timer on the lights, I would think, 20 for 10.8 hours, if you've got both of those 21 installed, or eight hours, if it's just a 22 timer.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 177 1 It just doesn't seem -- it seems 2 easier than door opening and closing. 3 MR. DAVIS: This is John Davis with 4 Traulsen. I think it depends upon the 5 manufacturer, their position in the market, 6 what they're to do and how they compete. 7 For some, I'm going to guess, the 8 cost could -- you could have a cost anywhere 9 from $20 to $60, probably, to put a scheduled 10 -- a timer based control, which it 11 extrapolates into a much higher price point. 12 If you're fighting one of your end user price 13 differences -- you're fighting over $100 at 14 the street, for some manufacturers, it could 15 be a problem. That's off the top of my head. 16 MR. STEPHENS: I know, but I mean, 17 you don't even use this, if you don't have a 18 timer.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 20 MR. COUSINS: Steve Cousins, Coca 21 Cola. We have lighting occupancy sensors on 22 all of our cabinets, have been using them for,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 178 1 I guess, several years now. 2 We recognize that any results of 3 having these occupancy sensors is not 4 guaranteed. You've got 24 hour stores and 5 accounts, you've got, you know, offices and 6 schools, and things vary, and not only that,

7 we have some customers who never want the 8 lights to go off. They want to use the lights 9 for security reasons and for that purpose, our 10 instruction or our manufacturers is that any 11 testing that's done with the cabinets that 12 have occupancy sensors, that those controls be 13 deactivated, and that our goal is to achieve 14 the mandates of any energy conservation 15 standard, without the use of these devices and 16 leave it up to the customers, of whether or 17 not they're deployed or not. 18 So, it's -- I'm only stating our 19 position, and I'm -- we'll see how a 20 certification shapes out, you know, when DOE 21 takes a look at that, but from our point of 22 view, it's hard to include this in any kind of

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 179 1 mandates around certifications. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, okay. Thank 3 you. Sarah? 4 MS. WIDDER: Just to complete this 5 slide, the one last assumption that was made 6 in this calculation is this scaling factor of 7 0.75 in front of the calculation of reduced 8 energy consumption for the compressor, and 9 this is both for self-contained and remote 10 condensing equipment, and that's to account 11 for the fact that not all of the heat produced 12 from the lights will impact the compressor 13 load, and this 0.75 was recommended to DOE by 14 manufacturers and the limited test data that 15 we could look at, and we welcome -- DOE 16 welcome comments on the appropriateness of 17 that number, as well. 18 And this is just a request for 19 comments. All of the things that I've 20 mentioned previously, the proposed calculation 21 methods, the equations that are presented in 22 the table that's part of your packet, and in

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 180 1 the back-up slides of this presentation. 2 Also, the default assumptions for time off for 3 controllers and scheduled occupancy sensors, 4 the EER table, which we've discussed, and 5 also, the scaling factor for the compressor 6 heat reduction. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs? 8 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 9 Sarah, assume - -I’m a manufacturer and I looked 10 around and saw what was in office buildings 11 and coming in office building, said, "Wait a 12 minute, I can do an adaptive lighting 13 controller, as well as one that's a scheduled 14 one," that once installed, understands the 15 lighting intensity within the case and adapts 16 its own lighting to reflect the ambient. 17 What sort of credit would that get 18 under the scheme you are proposing? It seems 19 to me that there is no reason I wouldn’t want 20 to try to adopt that for my product. 21 MS. WIDDER: That's true, that's 22 not currently proposed in these -- in the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 181 1 lighting occupancy sensor or scheduled 2 controls proposals and this test procedure. 3 The DOE has not found that product 4 to be available on the market and were a 5 manufacturer to develop that product and 6 wanted to have credit for that energy 7 reduction in the DOE test procedure, they 8 could apply for a waiver, with that product. 9 DR. SACHS: I understand that, but 10 it -- again, this is Harvey Sachs. 11 At some point, I just note the 12 present and residential air conditioning 13 equipment, where we have some things marked 14 `reserved' for technologies that were 15 anticipated, but were not yet on the market, 16 and I take that `reserved' as being a flag 17 that says to the industry, "These are things 18 that look like they have potential and we're 19 trying to at least encourage."

20 I note Charles Llenza's head 21 nodding up and down, to say `yes', and I 22 really think that this attention to the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 182 1 potential of innovation is an important 2 characteristic of the environment we're 3 constructing around our rulemaking.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Charles Llenza? 5 MR. LLENZA: There is absolutely no 6 problem with -- at the recommendation of the 7 industry and of course, of us looking at 8 things that are maybe not ready for prime 9 time, this round, to market space reserved. 10 MS. WIDDER: And if those 11 technologies exist, I would welcome the

12 manufacturers to let us know what other 13 technologies should be considered. 14 DR. SACHS: Again, Sarah, there is 15 some responsibility -- this is Harvey Sachs, 16 that we would assign to the Department and its 17 contractors, for doing broad surveys of 18 available technologies in adjacent industries 19 and globally, that these are the frame work 20 within which American industry will be 21 competing over the time period of this rule. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, comment?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 183 1 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 2 Manufacturing. There is nothing that tells us 3 we can't do this, in this rule. It doesn't 4 say that we can't advertise it, can't market 5 it, can't do anything else. It just gives us 6 a minimum standard to work from. 7 So, if we come up with a great 8 innovation, we're going to make it very 9 public. 10 DR. SACHS: I understand that, but 11 -- again, Harvey Sachs, and I guess what I'm 12 trying to do, based on my experience with 13 other products, is to figure out how you can 14 get credit in the ratings for energy saving 15 innovations, that your score in kilowatt hours 16 per day, will reflect the value to your 17 customer of this innovation, and I don't -- 18 that's what my problem is. 19 I don't see a route, other than the 20 waiver route, for that to happen. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Collin? 22 MR. WEBER: Collin Weber, Navigant.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 184 1 I guess I'm letting my curiosity get the best

2 of me. 3 You're alluding to, so, you're kind 4 of making a comparison to office building 5 lighting, where it varies, based on the 6 ambient external from the sun during the day? 7 What would the analog in a grocery store be? 8 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. The 9 analog in a grocery store is really the -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: The ambient 11 lighting. 12 DR. SACHS: I probably was not 13 clear, when I suggested this. 14 If I'm installed as a case in a 15 grocery store that happens to be over-lit 16 where I'm installed, I understand that and 17 reduce my own intensity to a level that's 18 comfortable for the customer, as well as 19 saving energy, and conversely, if I'm 20 installed in an environment which has moved to 21 being a low ambient and brighter lighting for 22 the contents of cases, I automatically sense

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 185 1 that into my lighting, to match that need, as

2 well. 3 This is relatively simple. It is 4 analogous to the time variation for an office 5 building with solar incidence, but instead, is 6 a spatial adapt -- automatic spatial 7 adaptation of the equipment. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 9 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 10 Manufacturing. I think there is a reverse 11 scenario in there, as well, because if you're 12 looking at the product lighting, you may not 13 need as much light, but if you're looking at 14 it from a marketing standpoint, if you want to 15 market a product and stand out, you turn up 16 your lights, rather than turn them down. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Absolutely. 18 MR. HON: So, that may be a 19 negative effect. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Jon McHugh? 21 MR. McHUGH: Thank you. Jon 22 McHugh. I'm trying to understand a little

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 186 1 bit. Would this apply to both open and closed 2 display cases, this test method? 3 MS. WIDDER: Yes, this would apply 4 to both open and closed display cases. 5 MR. McHUGH: And what you're 6 looking at it, for this EER, you're looking 7 for a default EER for this -- this is only for 8 self-contained units, where you'd use the 9 defaults that are in the table, is that

10 correct? 11 MS. WIDDER: Yes, and then for 12 remote condensing equipment, you would use the 13 table that's in AHRI. 14 This was an attempt to use a method 15 similar to the AHRI method for alternate 16 compressor reduction, alternate component 17 compressor reduction.

18 MR. McHUGH: And related to the 19 time switch type control, does this require 20 that the time switch control actually be 21 individually installed in each case, because 22 when I think of time switch or time controls,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 187 1 I normally think of a single time -- or a time 2 control that's external to the case, that's 3 controlling the lights. 4 And so, would the default be that 5 unless there is a self-contained timer control 6 on the display case, itself, that then, you 7 would assume -- that then you would use the -- 8 what is it, 10.2 hours for an occupant sensor, 9 in addition, is that right? 10 MS. WIDDER: That's right, and I 11 understand your concern, Jon, but 12 unfortunately, with this rulemaking, we're 13 limited to the scope of an individual unit, 14 and that's where we have to apply this. 15 MR. McHUGH: Right, so, you'd have 16 more credit for the occupancy control, even if 17 you did have a time switch. If you get the 18 credit for the occupancy control -- 19 MS. WIDDER: Yes, exactly.

20 MR. McHUGH: -- at the 10.8 hours?

21 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 22 MR. McHUGH: Okay, thank you.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 188 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 2 MS. WIDDER: All right, moving on. 3 This is the last proposed amendment to the 4 current DOE test procedure, and this is for 5 testing, as we discussed earlier, at lowest 6 application product temperature. 7 This stems from discussion in the 8 frame work document public meeting, that there 9 are some cases that are covered under this 10 rulemaking, that are designed to operate at 11 significantly higher temperatures, and cannot 12 maintain the 38 degree Fahrenheit integrated 13 average product temperature that's currently 14 specified for medium temperature 15 refrigerators. 16 This was not treated in the 17 previous rulemaking, since there was a low 18 product -- there is a low shipment volume for 19 that equipment class, or that type of 20 equipment, since the 2009 rulemaking dealt 21 mostly with remote condensing equipment or 22 self-contained equipment without doors.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 189 1 2 It's DOE's understanding that a lot 3 of this equipment is self-contained, and so, 4 now, there may be growth in the shipments in 5 this type of equipment that operate at higher 6 integrated average product temperatures, and 7 so, now, we're looking at it, again, in this 8 test procedure rulemaking and also, in the 9 energy conservation standard.

10 DOE also understands that AHRI has 11 -- I'll just keep going, sorry.

12 DOE also understands that AHRI 13 standard 1200-2010 has provisions for testing 14 products at the application product 15 temperature and is going to -- proposes to use 16 this for these higher temperature equipment. 17 The definition DOE proposes to 18 adopt for lowest application product 19 temperature would be the lowest integrated 20 average product temperature achievable and 21 maintainable within plus or minus two degree 22 Fahrenheit, for the duration of the test.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 190 1 And so, this provision would only 2 apply to cases that can't maintain 38 degrees 3 Fahrenheit, plus or minus two degrees, and are 4 in the refrigerator category. 5 The equipment tested at the lowest 6 application product temperature would also 7 have to report the integrated average product 8 temperature that they're tested at, to make 9 sure that that is associated with the energy 10 rating, and it's not understood that they are 11 more efficient than equipment that is tested 12 at 38 degrees. 13 DOE requests comment on the 14 provision for testing commercial refrigerators 15 that cannot be tested at 38 degrees 16 Fahrenheit. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 18 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I have two 19 comments, here. The first one is, is that 20 there is also a second category that hasn't 21 been mentioned here, and that's ice cabinets, 22 which are traditionally run in the mid 20's.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 191 1 They are actually below the temperature and 2 are basically more like a freezer than a 3 refrigerator, but in reality, they can be run 4 down to the low 20 degree range, but not -- if 5 you try and run them at 38 degrees or zero 6 degrees, they really don't fall between it. 7 The only mention in here is for the 8 white wine cabinets and floral cabinets and 9 for chocolate cabinets. But that's one that 10 needs to be added into this, as another one, 11 because it would be probably tested at the 12 lowest condition, as well, but it is closer to 13 a freezer application than a refrigerator 14 application. 15 MS. WIDDER: And my question to you 16 would be, and it cannot operate at zero 17 degrees Fahrenheit? 18 MR. HON: No, it cannot. 19 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan? 21 DR. MANOLE: Dan Manole, with 22 Hussmann Ingersoll Rand.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 192 1 I second the comment made by 2 Charlie, and I recommend to consider also, to 3 use this concept of lowest application product 4 temperature for freezers. 5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 6 DR. MANOLE: And in my comments 7 that I made in writing, I mentioned that until 8 today, when it was not an energy allowance, we 9 used same compressor, one-size-fits-all for 10 our applications. 11 So, probably today, if we take a 12 display case, maybe able to operate at zero, 13 although we don't want it to, we don't need

14 to. 15 I would like to have the option, 16 give us a chance to redesign the unit, so that 17 it will operate at 20 Fahrenheit, and it is 18 not going to operate at zero, and I assure 19 that will be more efficient. 20 So, if -- just to allow us to 21 innovate.

22 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 193 1 DR. MANOLE: And another last 2 comment I would make, I would like to have a 3 clarification that if it cannot be tested at 4 38, what I understand is, if I have, for 5 example, a thermostat and if for any reason, 6 the temperature goes below 50, I will shut off 7 the unit. Would that be considered that the 8 unit cannot be tested at 38? 9 MS. WIDDER: I'm sorry, repeat 10 that. If it goes below 50, it will turn off? 11 DR. MANOLE: I have a display unit 12 that has a thermostat. The moment the product 13 temperature goes below 50, I will shut off the 14 compressor. Will that mean that my unit

15 cannot be tested at 38? 16 MS. WIDDER: Yes, that would fit 17 the description. 18 DR. MANOLE: Okay, I like that 19 definition. 20 MS. WIDDER: Okay, good.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: John? 22 MR. DAVIS: John Davis, with

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 194 1 Traulsen. I'm just going to reiterate that 2 there are -- there is a whole range between 38 3 and zero, as Charlie and Dan mentioned, so, I 4 just want to reiterate that. 5 And another thing we're trying to 6 wrestle with on this, and I might be tainted 7 by some things going on with EPA and then that 8 whole verification/validation testing, is 9 sometimes, products may be designed and 10 manufactured with a set point other than 38, 11 lower, specifically, to give a better factor 12 of safety in demanding applications, or -- are 13 also, you know, longer product life, you know, 14 product stored at 34 lasts better than product 15 -- longer than product stored at 40. 16 So, we're trying to figure out -- I 17 mean, we can test at 38, but it might require 18 an adjustment by the tester. Now, you're 19 getting into verification and enforcement 20 testing. 21 So, we're trying to wrestle with 22 that, because for the market, we think a set

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 195 1 point lower than 38 is best for our customers, 2 and we can meet that requirement at 38, but 3 how is it going to be enforced, is what we're 4 trying to figure out? 5 I mean, if we meet the DOE 6 requirement to test at that rating, we might 7 have market issues. If we go to the market, 8 we have DOE issues, and we'd like to have no 9 issues.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Charles Llenza? 11 MR. LLENZA: Charles Llenza, 12 Department of Energy. 13 My understanding is that we would 14 test at our test procedure rating. So, it's - 15 - if it's 38, it's at 38, and we would take 16 products out of your assembly line, and put 17 them in a chamber and run them at the test 18 conditions, and if they didn't meet the 19 requirements, then you're not set -- you know, 20 that would be the spot testing that we would

21 do. 22 MR. DAVIS: John, again. Can you -

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 196 1 - will you change the temperature control, or 2 take it as is? 3 MR. LLENZA: We usually take it as 4 is and then try to set it at -- with the 5 temperature controls that's installed in the 6 unit. That's my understanding. 7 I don't -- I mean, I don't 8 understand -- I would not know exactly what 9 they would do if the temperature control could 10 not get down to the rating temperature. 11 MR. DAVIS: Well, it definitely

12 could.

13 MR. LLENZA: Yes. 14 MR. DAVIS: The thing is, it could 15 go up. It's a question of whether, do you 16 plug it in, or do you plug it in, manipulate

17 the control to the test? 18 MR. LLENZA: Well, you plug it in 19 and you set the temperature and you let it sit 20 in the chamber until it stabilizes and then 21 you run the test. 22 MR. DAVIS: Well, we can live with

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 197 1 that, as long as it's --

2 MR. LLENZA: Yes. 3 MR. DAVIS: -- adjusted. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 5 MR. HON: There's a problem that's 6 brewing between two different departments, 7 then, because ENERGY STAR has a proposal right 8 now, which says they will take it out of the 9 box and test it as is. 10 MR. LLENZA: Without setting the

11 controls? 12 MR. HON: Correct, and if they're 13 set -- and if a unit is leaving below the test 14 standard temperature, which is totally legal, 15 and which we do, that can give us problems in 16 verification testing. 17 MR. LLENZA: Let me just -- I have 18 to differentiate, that the ENERGY STAR and the 19 DOE standard are two different things, and 20 yes, they have a different protocol, but I 21 would recommend that you comment on the ENERGY 22 STAR testing protocols, in terms of saying

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 198 1 that that doesn't align with the DOE test 2 procedures, because they would be well 3 informed for that. 4 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. It also 5 doesn't align with the ENERGY STAR test 6 procedures, but they're doing it anyway. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim? 8 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane. We have 9 to be careful with this, because right now, 10 DOE is doing some spot checking for ENERGY 11 STAR, and the DOE is saying -- states very 12 clearly, that if a unit doesn't pass this 13 ENERGY STAR test, and doesn't pass it on the 14 standard, then you're in trouble. 15 Well, as of -- 16 MR. LLENZA: Well, I think -- I 17 mean, I’ll take note of the comment and I 18 think the best thing I can do is talk to the 19 ENERGY STAR folks about this issue, because I 20 guess from the Department's point of view, we 21 would be giving conflicting -- if we're in 22 charge of the ENERGY STAR testing and we

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 199 1 accept this protocol, then we would probably 2 be conflicting our own regulation here, for 3 the testing, for the regular standard. 4 So, it's good that we get comments 5 from the industry, specifically to the ENERGY

6 STAR. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stephens? 8 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, I've been at 9 this with ENERGY STAR since the inception, and 10 the fact is, that they can't test it out of 11 the box and meet test conditions in almost 12 every piece of equipment they test. 13 You have to stay within the test 14 conditions, unless they specify some other 15 tests conditions for ENERGY STAR, which we 16 hope they don't do, but the fact is, out of 17 the box just means that it isn't a gold plated 18 unit that somebody shipped them from the plant 19 that was adjusted. 20 It means that they are going to set 21 the thermostat to maintain the test procedure 22 set point temperatures in the machine and

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 200 1 whatever, and they have to be the same test 2 procedures. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, go ahead. 4 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 5 Manufacturing. That's not what the version 6 2.1 states, though. It states quite clearly, 7 in red letters, on the website today, that 8 says `as received'. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Interesting. 10 Harvey? 11 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. I 12 think that building on Charlie Stephens 13 comment, this is clearly a case of unintended 14 consequences at ENERGY STAR, and I'm sure that 15 there would be a consensus among all the 16 stakeholders, that this is burdensome and, you 17 know, no good deed will go unpunished and 18 we'll do our best to help out with reconciling 19 this. 20 What this came out of, I'm sure, is 21 the test requirements on things like 22 residential split air conditioners which

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 201 1 require that you adjust the refrigerant level 2 to the manufacturers specification, and ENERGY 3 STAR certainly doesn't want the unit to be 4 tuned and gold plated, in Charlie's terms. 5 But at some point, there are things 6 which, like the thermostat, have got to be 7 adjusted to the standard test conditions. 8 We're certainly happy to have -- 9 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles 10 Llenza, again, Department of Energy. 11 In order to close the loop and then 12 provide a service to the industry, if somebody 13 could co-sponsor an email to me, stating 14 clearly what the problem is, and what I will 15 do is, take it upon myself to provide it to 16 the right party at the Department.17 We do have intra -- inter18 governmental meetings between -- withENERGY 19 STAR folks. Well, it's -- they're a little 20 bit more sophisticated than that, but I think 21 I could at least pass on the message to the 22 counter-part ENERGY STAR party, and also the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 202 1 point of contact in DOE that's working on the 2 ENERGY STAR program, so that they can deal 3 directly with responding to this. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, we're going to 5 move on, then. Karim, yes, final comment? 6 DR. AMRANE: Well, actually, I 7 comment to Sarah on the proposal here. 8 Does the proposal apply equally to 9 self-contained and remote cases, as well? 10 MS. WIDDER: Yes, it applies 11 equally to all commercial refrigeration 12 equipment. 13 DR. AMRANE: And the question is, 14 how would you ensure that the -- in the remote 15 case, because you have -- you are coupling 16 your remote cases to different condensing 17 units, so, how would you assure that you would

18 reach the lowest -- what would be the lowest 19 temperature, in this case? 20 MS. WIDDER: It's my understanding 21 that the cases will be designed -- the cases, 22 not the remote condensing units -- the cases

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 203 1 will be designed differently and if they're 2 designed to operate at higher than ambient 3 conditions, and if that's the case -- and 4 Massoud is shaking his head. 5 But if a remote condensing case 6 cannot operate at 38 degrees Fahrenheit, then 7 they would also fall under this description.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Massoud? 9 MR. NESHAN: Well, just a point of 10 clarification. Massoud Neshan, Southern Store 11 Fixtures. 12 Condensing unit doesn't care if 13 it's a 38 degree or not. There are a lot of 14 other loads on that condensing unit that would

15 run. 16 MS. WIDDER: Right. 17 MR. NESHAN: It's the display case, 18 the control has to be set at the display, to 19 operate at a 40, 45, 50, whatever the 20 temperatures are. 21 MS. WIDDER: Right, right, and if 22 that display case was configured in such a way

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 204 1 that it couldn't run at an integrated average 2 product temperature of 38 degrees, for 3 whatever reason, it had a different size 4 expansion valve, then that would meet this 5 requirement. 6 But if it could operate at 38 7 degrees, then it would need to be tested as

8 such. 9 MR. NESHAN: But if I may?

10 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 11 MR. NESHAN: Let's say, you're 12 going to be testing it at 45 degrees, for a 13 remote case application, because it's going to 14 be a calculation method, you would use a high 15 temperature, which gives you a higher EER of 16 the -- for the compressor or condensing unit, 17 then your calculation based on that, would 18 give you the energy requirement, and then you 19 can plug it into this formula and see if that 20 thing is within the limits or not. 21 MS. WIDDER: There is not a 22 calculation with the lowest application

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 205 1 product temperature. 2 MR. NESHAN: For remote, that's the 3 only way you can do it. 4 MS. WIDDER: Oh, with the ARHI -- 5 MR. NESHAN: I'm talking about

6 remote -- 7 MS. WIDDER: Yes, with the AHRI 8 calculation, yes. 9 MR. NESHAN: Right. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 11 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True12 Manufacturing. If this is the case on self13 contained equipment, if we're running at 45 or 14 55 degrees Fahrenheit, is that then going to 15 be applied as refrigerator, as far as total 16 energy allowed --

17 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 18 MR. HON: -- so, that it is no less 19 efficient than a commercial refrigerator, or 20 if we're talking the possibility of these ice 21 cabinets, which are at 20 degrees Fahrenheit, 22 probably, for the coldest condition, would

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 206 1 that then be applied as a freezer? 2 MS. WIDDER: As proposed, it is --

3 these cases that would be tested at the lowest 4 application product temperature, and as 5 proposed, it's only high temperature cases 6 that don't meet -- only high temperature 7 refrigerators. Those would meet the energy 8 conservation standards for refrigerators.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: We have another 10 comment from -- go ahead, Charlie, keep going. 11 MR. HON: Okay, Charlie Hon, again. 12 But what about the ones we discussed 13 previously, that would fall between the 14 refrigerator and freezer?

15 MS. WIDDER: Before I made a 16 definitive statement, I would want to look 17 into that further.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: We have another 19 comment from Bruce Hierlmeier, Zero Zone, who20 says, "The approach is reasonable for self21 contained cases. On remote cases, the lowest 22 temperature the case can reach is dependent,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 207 1 in part, on the size of the remote condensing 2 unit, and how low the evaporating pressure 3 goes." 4 "How will this rule control the 5 size of the condensing unit?" 6 MS. WIDDER: This rule will not 7 control the size of the condensing unit.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Charles Llenza? 9 MR. LLENZA: I can only think that 10 the testing would be done based on what the 11 unit is going to be used for. 12 So, if the unit is used at certain 13 -- certain condensing units, as a standard 14 application, then the case would be tested 15 with that in mind. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 17 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 18 Manufacturing. Under ASHRAE test conditions, 19 it is assumed that you're running -- it's just 20 measuring the actual power consumption of the 21 final cabinet. It has nothing to do -- So, if 22 you have a standard product, which would be

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 208 1 giving you certain amount of refrigerant 2 available to it, that would be your -- it 3 would still measure the difference in 4 temperature and the way you went, or if you 5 had one that was universal, which fed in, then 6 your control device would give you the same 7 number. It would just limit how much 8 refrigerant passed through. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stephens? 10 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. 11 Am I -- maybe I'm simplifying this too much, 12 but it seems like in any cabinet, the 13 temperature -- the lowest temperature that it 14 can maintain would be a temperature that's set 15 with a -- some sort of a set point device, in 16 the cabinet, is it not?

17 MR. HON: No.

18 MR. STEPHENS: No? 19 MR. HON: Because if you have a -- 20 a unit has a limited capacity, a small 21 evaporator coil, it can run 24 hours 22 continuously, and never get cold enough.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 209 1 It is not necessarily controlled by 2 that. It's controlled by a long list of 3 condition -- additional conditions. 4 MR. STEPHENS: Well, I mean, I'm 5 assuming that the thing is set up with an 6 appropriate amount of capacity to maintain -- 7 I mean, you're not making any guarantees then, 8 to the people who you sell this cabinet to, 9 that you will maintain a certain temperature 10 band for the product that they intend to put 11 in it. 12 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 13 Manufacturing. Yes, we do guarantee that, 14 because certain products get different 15 temperature controllers. 16 If we are shipping a product for 17 chocolates, it has a different controller than 18 we ship with a product for white wine, which 19 has a different controller than a standard 20 refrigerator. 21 So, that controller becomes a 22 controlling factor, not the capacity of the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 210 1 unit.



### 2 MR. STEPHENS: So, - -it’s different,



### 3 in that the temperature range available is



### 4 different?



### 5 MR. HON: Yes. 

### 6 MR. STEPHENS: So, the low



### 7 temperature that you could set in a white wine



### 8 case, would not be 32? 

### 9 MR. HON: That is correct.



### 10 MR. STEPHENS: It would be



### 11 something higher than that.



### 12 MR. HON: Much higher.



### 13 MR. STEPHENS: Much higher, and so,



### 14 in theory, whatever the bottom range of that



### 15 device is that you're using, you're going to



### 16 assume that the evaporator can at least



### 17 provide enough cooling to maintain the case at



### 18 that low temperature, that can be set on the 

### 19 controller, right?



### 20 MR. HON: That's right.



### 21 MR. STEPHENS: For a remote case? 

### 22 MR. HON: Yes.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 211 1 MR. STEPHENS: Okay, so, again, I 2 keep coming back to saying, "Okay, well, the 3 controllers are different. They have a 4 different bottom temperature," and we always 5 assume that whatever compressor is attached to 6 this thing is capable of meeting that set 7 point, assuming you can set it. 8 So, it seems to me, the lowest 9 temperature that anything can maintain is 10 whatever the lowest set point is on the 11 controller, or you wouldn't put it there. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 13 MR. HON: You're correct there, but 14 there is also some differences in controllers, 15 not just the lowest set point, but the on/off 16 cycles has become very critical, because there 17 are times when you want a very tight band of 18 temperature ranges. 19 If you have a temperature range 20 which has to be held within two degrees 21 Fahrenheit, because of certain medical 22 products, or something in it, that compressor

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 212 1 is on and off at a very high frequency and as 2 such, it's much harder and consumes a lot more 3 energy, starting and stopping, than if you 4 would run long cycles and have a fairly wide 5 temperature span within that range. 6 MR. STEPHENS: Okay, but that's 7 probably going to show up in the test, right? 8 I mean, at whatever set point you set? 9 MR. HON: Yes, it is. 10 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, okay. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, okay, Charlie 12 says `yes'. 13 MR. HON: Yes, you're correct. 14 MR. STEPHENS: Okay, I think I got 15 it, but I think DOE needs to do some work on 16 defining what this lowest temperature is and 17 how it's determined. It sounds simpler than 18 what I'm seeing here. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 20 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, one more 21 time. I think it's just that we just build a 22 unit which has certain capacities, certain

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 213 1 capabilities. If it doesn't get cold enough, I 2 think we tested it at the coldest, it can get 3 there, and that's the balancing of the systems 4 that we are responsible for, because we still 5 have to meet our warranty requirements, our 6 customer demands, our special needs 7 requirements. 8 And so, if you just dial it down to 9 the coldest set point, that's what we'll be 10 testing at. 11 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, you need to be 12 able to meet that, if it's there, okay. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Massoud,

14 comment? 15 MR. NESHAN: Yes, Massoud Neshan. I 16 just want to make a comment that this test 17 procedure and this standard does not apply to 18 medical equipment. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 20 Okay. 21 MS. WIDDER: All right, so, that 22 concludes that section, and next, I'll welcome

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 214 1 Andrew Nawrocki from Navigant Consulting, to 2 talk about the burden of testing and the 3 regulatory review for this proposed test 4 procedure. 5 MR. NAWROCKI: All right, thank 6 you, Sarah. My name is Andrew Nawrocki from 7 Navigant Consulting, and I will be discussing 8 the burden of testing and regulatory review 9 sections. 10 First, some background. DOE 11 understands that amending the test procedures 12 could increase the burden on manufacturers to 13 quantify the performance of their equipment, 14 and also, EPCA requires that the DOE test 15 procedures be reasonably designed and not 16 unduly burdensome to conduct. 17 So, first, the current burden of 18 test, all commercial refrigeration equipment 19 is required to be tested using the DOE test 20 procedure, and this includes the 24 hour test, 21 so, there's no significant change there. 22 Also, as previously discussed,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 215 1 we'll be using the 2010 version of the AHRI 2 standard and the 2008 version of the AHAM

3 standard. 4 Next, looking at the energy 5 conservation features, for equipment that has 6 the option of being sold with night curtains 7 or lighting occupancy sensors. Additional 8 testing may be required in the case of night 9 curtains, as previously discussed. 10 So, if it complies with the ECS, 11 without night curtains, you're looking at one 12 test, and if it does not comply, you're 13 looking at two tests. 14 And for cases with occupancy 15 sensors, again, only calculation is required - 16 - no additional -- 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's just pause 18 there. I saw Karim, first. 19 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane. That's 20 not exactly true, because again, this 21 compliance issue with DOE is going to require 22 manufacturers, probably, to test, if you have

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 216 1 a curtain, because you won't be able to claim 2 those energy savings without testing. 3 So, again, I mean, assuming that 4 you don't have to do it is not exactly true. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 6 MR. NAWROCKI: Thank you. The 7 next, the burden of tests attributed to the 8 lowest application product temperature. Yes, 9 since the same test is being performed in both 10 cases, DOE believes that this will not 11 increase the burden on manufacturers, and it 12 should lead to more representative energy 13 consumption values. 14 So, at this point, the proposed 15 changes to the test procedure for CRE were 16 chosen to help minimize the impact of 17 additional testing and DOE believes that the 18 proposed amended test procedures would not be 19 unduly burdensome to conduct, and we welcome 20 comments at this time. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: On the burden, 22 that's the question. Harvey Sachs?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 217 1 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 2 I'm sometimes slow, but with respect to slide 3 45, the burden of test lowest application 4 product temperature, what's not clear to me is 5 that if we accept the alterations proposed by 6 our colleagues in industry for freezer-like 7 products and higher temperature products, is 8 this going to be a situation where you can 9 pick and choose whatever application 10 temperature you want, 49, 50 or 51 degrees 11 Fahrenheit, or will there be a set of standard 12 application temperatures, so customers can 13 actually still compare products? 14 That is the one thing that is not 15 clear to me about this, or one of the things 16 that's not clear to me about this.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I see Sarah. 18 MS. WIDDER: The DOE's goal in 19 presenting this lowest application product 20 temperature rating was to still require most 21 commercial refrigeration products to be rated 22 at the prescribed test temperatures, which are

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 218 1 right now, 38, zero and negative 15, and that 2 would have comparability across most 3 commercial refrigeration equipment, and right 4 now, we're just talking about a small 5 percentage of units that can't operate at one 6 of those prescribed test temperatures. 7 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, again. I 8 understand and that's very helpful and in 9 general, we don't care very much about stuff 10 that isn't using a lot of energy, because 11 there aren't a whole lot of products. 12 But if A's chocolate cooler wants 13 to run at the lowest application temperature 14 of 54 degrees and B's has the lowest 15 application temperature of 56 degrees, that 16 case doesn't make a -- you know, it's white

17 chocolate case versus a dark chocolate case 18 and there is 10 degrees difference in the 19 application temperature. 20 How does DOE plan to handle that? 21 MS. WIDDER: DOE plans to test 22 those cases at their lowest application

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 219 1 product temperature and if they're different 2 between the manufacturers, then the integrated 3 average product temperature that the case was 4 tested at, would also be reported with that 5 energy consumption value. 6 And so, hopefully, the consumer 7 would be able to compare the different test 8 temperatures with the different energy 9 consumption values. 10 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, again. 11 Again, this is very helpful, Sarah, but there 12 is one other thing I don't understand, then. 13 How do I know if that temperature - 14 - that unit that was tested at 54 degrees 15 complies with the energy conservation

16 standard? 17 MS. WIDDER: Because if you're 18 buying it, hopefully, it complies.

19 DR. SACHS: But what's the standard 20 for it to be --

21 MS. WIDDER: The standard would be 22 the same standard for a commercial

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 220 1 refrigerator. 2 DR. SACHS: As long as it passes? 3 MS. WIDDER: Yes, as long as it 4 passes, the same standard, as it would if it 5 were tested at 38 degrees, but in this case, 6 it's tested at a different temperature, 7 because it can't reach that. 8 DR. SACHS: Okay, so, effectively, 9 I have now, built into the process, an 10 incentive to qualify equipment for application 11 temperatures because the efficiency 12 requirements will be much more lenient for the 13 unit tested at 54 degrees than the unit tested 14 at 38 degrees, and if the proposal on the ice 15 unit is accepted, it's going to be a whole lot 16 easier to qualify a unit at 20 than at zero?

17 MS. WIDDER: I have --

18 MR. LLENZA: Let me answer that.

19 MS. WIDDER: Go ahead. 20 MR. LLENZA: The problem is 21 enforcement, and if you start using these 22 units, not for the intended purpose of

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 221 1 testing, the Department is going to come down 2 on you for that, not only to the 3 manufacturers, but also, to the end consumer 4 on this. 5 DR. SACHS: But you just told us -- 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on, hang on, 7 hang on -- 8 DR. SACHS: -- that we're using the

9 --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Just one second. 11 First, Charles Llenza, now, back to Harvey, 12 please. 13 DR. SACHS: I'm sorry, I just heard 14 earlier today that DOE's standards are about 15 manufacturing standards. 16 MR. LLENZA: That's correct, but 17 there is an anti-circumvention too, of what -- 18 people trying to use equipment that's not the 19 intended purpose of the equipment. 20 So, while we can't control at the 21 one end, the end user, we can control the 22 manufacturing.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 222 1 So, people selling that unit, that 2 the intended purpose is not for say, you know, 3 ice cream or turkey, you know, refrigerated 4 products, then I think that you would have 5 problems with the Department's enforcement

6 branch. 7 DR. SACHS: Thank you. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: I saw Charlie, 9 first. 10 MR. STEPHENS: Actually, I think 11 Jon was first. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Really?

13 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Jon, go ahead. 15 MR. STEPHENS: Go ahead, Jon.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Please. 17 MR. McHUGH: Jon McHugh. Just to 18 clarify, the Department of Energy is not 19 proposing that they would adjust the standard 20 levels based on the temperature that the 21 product was tested at? 22 MS. WIDDER: As proposed, the small

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 223 1 number of units that would be tested at lowest 2 application product temperature would still 3 meet the refrigerator requirement. 4 It is not proposed that this would 5 also apply to ice -- these ice chests, that 6 have been raised today, and before I made any 7 determinations about that, I believe the DOE 8 would have to do a little more analysis. 9 MR. McHUGH: Okay, just I'm not 10 sure I heard the answer, which is, so, you 11 would have the same kilowatt hours per day 12 threshold for passage, regardless of the 13 application temperature that was applied? 14 MS. WIDDER: That is what is being 15 proposed. 16 MR. McHUGH: Okay, we do have a 17 problem with that, I guess. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: So, that exchange 19 between Jon and Sarah, back and forth, there. 20 Collin, do you wish to add anything, here? 21 MR. WEBER: I guess I was just 22 going to add something that's sort of driving

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 224 1 this, but which hasn't exactly been 2 annunciated, yet, is that DOE is not 3 attempting to reshape the market in any sort 4 of way. We're attempting to accommodate 5 things that are on the market currently, and 6 which are produced by other design drivers, 7 the need to keep ice at a certain temperature, 8 but ice doesn't need to be zero degrees 9 Fahrenheit, the need for a floral case to not 10 need to run at 38 degrees Fahrenheit. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 12 MS. WIDDER: I don't think -- 13 MR. LLENZA: One also, comment from 14 -- Charles Llenza, here, Department of Energy. 15 A lot of these products are custom 16 products. There is not really a big market 17 shipment database of products coming in, but 18 we have to have some allowance for people to 19 test the equipment, if this becomes a market 20 niche, and we see more shipments. 21 If we don't have that, then these 22 products end up being non-regulatory -- non-

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 225 1 regulated -- 2 MS. WIDDER: And just to -- 3 MR. LLENZA: -- type products.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah? 5 MS. WIDDER: And just to follow on 6 that, if we were to make a new energy 7 conservation standard with a new kilowatt hour 8 per day requirement, as you're suggesting, 9 Jon, for the different test temperatures, that 10 would be a new equipment class for each 11 different temperature of equipment, and the 12 DOE believes that there is not sufficient 13 shipments to warrant separate equipment 14 classes for high temperature and ice chests. 15 And so, this is just for a small 16 number of equipment that's covered under CRE, 17 to be tested and meet some sort of minimum

18 standard. 19 MR. LLENZA: Charles Llenza, 20 Department of Energy, and if we find that that 21 market segment is growing, we will try to 22 capture this in the next regulation. That's

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 226 1 the concept. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Jon, you want to

3 follow on? 4 MR. McHUGH: Just briefly, that I 5 believe there has been a number of standards 6 which have adjustments factors for the test 7 levels, and so, you wouldn't necessarily have 8 to, you know, have separate levels for each of 9 these adjustments, you know, just as well as 10 you're adjusting the temperature for the 11 application, you potentially have an equation 12 that adjusts the standard level, without 13 requiring, you know, a huge table of 14 different, you know, different test standard 15 levels based on the temperature. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, is your 17 comment in this stream, or is it different? 18 MR. STEPHENS: I'd like to end it, 19 actually. I'd like to have this conversation

20 when we talk about a standard.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 22 MR. STEPHENS: You know, I just

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 227 1 want to understand how these things are tested 2 appropriately and how they work, and we can 3 have this conversation about classes and 4 everything else and whether there should be 5 separate standards when we're actually talking

6 about standards. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: I saw Karim -- 8 DR. AMRANE: Yes, just to finish 9 the discussion, Karim Amrane with AHRI. 10 I think we shouldn't be over 11 reacting here. We're talking about this 12 market, and I agree, as long as this is not 13 abused, because you know, obviously, if it's 14 abused then, obviously, we have to do 15 something about it. But right now, we're 16 talking about a very niche market and there's 17 a need to just address these issues. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Massoud, go

19 ahead. 20 MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan, 21 Southern Store Fixtures. 22 One comment I'd like to make, and

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 228 1 that has to do with the like, for example,

2 chocolate cases. 3 Please do not think that the fact 4 that the chocolate has to be maintained at 55 5 degrees, for example, that that case would use 6 less energy. Actually, it might even use more 7 energy because you have to have heaters in 8 that case, to accommodate or provide certain 9 relative humidity in the case, otherwise you 10 get chocolate that would be sweating and there 11 is a difference between U.S. made chocolate, 12 Belgium or Swiss or German. 13 So, there are a lot of complexities 14 in this area. So, but 55 degrees doesn't mean 15 it would use less energy. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Next time, we need 17 samples. Charlie, please. 18 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 19 Manufacturing. One thing about this is, we 20 can talk about this, it's still, according to 21 their definition, one and a half percent of

22 the market.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 229 1 But this also gives DOE the 2 opportunity to collect data, rather than let 3 them just float around ambiently -- aimlessly 4 and in the ozone. We don't know how many are

5 out there. 6 They will be able to spot, if 7 suddenly, a category starts growing, and drive 8 them toward regulation, at that point. 9 So, I think it's a valid point, but 10 I think that they have the information then, 11 because at that point, they would be 12 registered product. They would be definable 13 product, and they would be reported on, so 14 that it closes the loop. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: So, now, we're 16 moving on with Andrew. Andrew? 17 MR. NAWROCKI: Okay, the next item 18 is the review under the Regulatory Flexibility 19 Act. So, what this entails is, the DOE must 20 determine whether the rule would result in a 21 significant impact on a substantial number of 22 small entities, and the DOE has used the Small

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 230 1 Business Administration standard for small 2 entities in this industry description, as less 3 than 750 employees.

4 DOE has found 22 manufacturers that 5 fit this description. We request for comment 6 on the number of small businesses in the

7 market. 8 MR. McHUGH: I'm sorry, that this 9 really has to go back to the burden of test. 10 The slides actually don't discuss one of the 11 large discussions that are in the Federal 12 Register, which has to do with the issue of 13 anti-sweat heaters and the control, and not to 14 consider how those devices are tested, and the 15 utilities run a program called Savings by 16 Design, where they look at high efficiency 17 systems and one of the things that is coming 18 back from the market is that in a number of 19 cases, these cases with low energy anti-sweat 20 heaters have problems, in terms of creating a 21 slip and fall hazard, that there still is 22 moisture build up, that there is -- you know,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 231 1 then the concern is, then that moisture falls 2 on the floor and then creates an opportunity 3 for law suits. 4 To solve the problem, what occurs 5 is then those markets have to then de-humidify 6 the air in the entire building and it results 7 in substantially greater energy consumption 8 for the building, than if they actually had 9 appropriately sized anti-sweat heaters. 10 The concern is, is that if we have 11 a standard that gives credit -- or provides 12 credit for testing anti-sweat heaters at only 13 one test level, we don't actually know that 14 they work when it's humid out. 15 We end up having a situation where 16 you have products that are saving energy 17 officially in the test standard, but then, 18 require that the overall energy consumption of 19 the building is higher. 20 And so, I think this is a 21 substantive issue for the Department to 22 address, and I guess the other issue is, is

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 232 1 that in many cases, the anti-sweat heater 2 controls are not on the case, they're actually 3 separate, and so, how does someone address 4 requirements for adaptive controls that look 5 at the space conditions, and provide 6 appropriate control of the anti-sweat heaters?

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah? 8 MS. WIDDER: I guess I would just - 9 - the DOE would just request comment about 10 what specifically you're suggesting, to 11 appropriately characterize the effectiveness 12 of the anti-sweat heater controls, and of 13 course, the manufacturer burden associated 14 with that testing. 15 MR. McHUGH: And I guess, just 16 right now, the recommendation that there be a 17 separate test for the controls. It doesn't 18 necessarily have to be a test that is part of 19 the individual test that you have for the 20 cases, but that it's something to certify the

21 controls. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Charlie?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 233 1 MR. HON: There is another issue 2 here, that while you bring this up, that -- if 3 we're going to open one can of worms, you 4 might as well open two, and that is the fact 5 that there is condensate heaters as well. In 6 high ambient humidity, we will increase the 7 amount of condensation off the coils, which 8 then goes into a drain pan, and quite often, 9 has a heater built into that, which adds 10 additional power consumption.11 So, if you start looking at anti12 condensation heating, you would have a big one 13 down under the unit, as well.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: I have two comments 15 from individuals online. The first is a brief 16 comment from Shawn, and his last name is 17 spelled G-O-U-W, Gouw, perhaps? 18 "Historically, DOE created separate 19 product classes for built-in residential 20 refrigerators, which similarly, did not have a 21 large market share." 22 And then, in addition, we have a

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 234 1 comment from Jamy Bacchus, I hope I'm not -- I 2 hope that's correct, NRDC, "It is possible to3 create energy efficiency levels for non4 standard temperature cases with an equation, 5 which has minimum maintainable temperature as 6 the input." Is it possible, I think he's 7 asking, as the input, "Or is it possible to 8 create brackets similar to other product 9 classes, which would be temperature ranges, 10 rather than ice cream. It would simply be 11 something akin to temperature bands, such as 12 45 to 52 degrees Fahrenheit, 53 to 60 degrees 13 Fahrenheit, et cetera. Has DOE considered 14 this?" Charles Llenza? 15 MR. LLENZA: The Department will 16 take it under advisement and if they could 17 provide us more information, with those bands, 18 because we really don't have an idea of those

19 bands. 20 We're trying to create rules that 21 are sort of universal. We've set three 22 temperatures that we know that captures 98

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 235 1 percent of the market. The other two percent 2 of the market is somewhat unknown. 3 So, if this person who sent in the 4 questions to the Department has more 5 information on those band ranges, or any of 6 the stakeholders here, or parties of interest 7 that are listening in, the Department would 8 appreciate that. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so, now, we're 10 going to press on. 11 MR. NAWROCKI: Yes, continuing with 12 the regulatory review. 13 Impacts are associated with two 14 things, the cost of testing and the length of 15 time it takes to perform the test. 16 So, DOE determined that the cost is 17 estimated at $5,000 for an additional test, 18 and one week of laboratory time, and they've 19 used the annual average value added as a 20 metric. This is equal to the cost of 21 materials, supplies, containers, fuel, 22 purchase electricity and contractor work,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 236 1 subtracted from the cost of shipments. 2 A significant impact was determined 3 to be greater than one percent of the annual 4 average valued added. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: I received -- we 6 have a comment or two. First, Massoud. 7 MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan, 8 Southern Store Fixtures. 9 I would like to add to that $5,000 10 -- I don't know how that number was derived, 11 because we have to use outside agencies to 12 certify our testing result, and that, by far, 13 exceeds the $5,000 that you have listed here. 14 It's way above that number, for any piece of 15 equipment that we have tested and certified. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: That figure includes 17 your total cost.

18 MR. NESHAN: That would not even 19 cover what you have to pay to outside company, 20 to come and certify our product.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. 22 MR. NESHAN: The way it was tested,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 237 1 not to mention, our own costs. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: But can you submit 3 that in written comments to the Department? 4 MR. NESHAN: Will do. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. John? 6 MR. DAVIS: John Davis with 7 Traulsen. I was going to say the same thing. 8 I was going to have a draft of my written 9 comments, and I think I penciled in here, 10 probably closer to $10,000, not even talking 11 about product cost, transportation, et cetera, 12 and that's based upon quotes. So, we'll put 13 that in writing. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: So, it would also be 15 helpful to the Department, to specify what 16 elements are included in that cost figure, so 17 they know what that is. Dan? 18 DR. MANOLE: Dan Manole with 19 Hussmann. It is a repeat of what my colleague 20 said earlier, that just the transportation 21 would be in the order of $5,000. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 238 1 DR. MANOLE: If we are sending to a 2 laboratory. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 4 MR. LLENZA: So, the Department 5 welcomes hard data on that, and whatever the 6 real true costs are, we would appreciate that. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, then back to

8 Andrew. 9 MR. NAWROCKI: Continuing the 10 assessment of burden, the proposed revisions 11 to the test procedure can be split into two 12 categories, measures that may affect burden 13 and measures that the DOE considers not to 14 substantially affect the burden. 15 So, the one provision that may 16 affect burden is the extra test for cases with 17 night curtains, and measures that are not 18 expected to affect the burden include updating 19 the DOE procedure references to the newest 20 industry standards, testing cases -- 21 certifying cases with occupancy sensors and at 22 the alternate temperature ranges.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 239 1 So, the potential burden due to the 2 night curtain provision, this is based on the 3 number of open cases, the number of additional 4 tests that will be performed and the cost 5 associated with extra tests. 6 So, the number of open cases, the 7 DOE found that larger manufacturers sell more 8 open cases than smaller manufacturers, and DOE 9 estimates that for both small and large 10 manufacturers who offer open cases, open cases 11 that could be sold with night curtains 12 comprise 20 percent of the total models, 13 between one and 50 models, and with a single 14 small manufacturer producing the majority of 15 all open cases, of the small manufacturers. 16 As previously stated, the number of 17 additional tests that would be performed, 18 units that are compliant without optional 19 night curtains installed do not require 20 additional testing, and we've also seen that 21 about half of the cases will require two 22 tests, and the costs associated with the extra

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 240 1 test, DOE found the incremental cost ranged 2 from approximately 0.3 to 0.6 percent of 3 annual average value added. 4 So, looking back at provisions that 5 are not expected to affect burden, aligning 6 the DOE test procedure with the industry 7 standards, as previously stated, testing cases 8 with occupancy sensors, this is strictly a 9 calculation methodology, does not require 10 additional testing, and manufacturers are only 11 required to show compliance of units with 12 occupancy controls and sensors if the unit 13 without controls is non-compliant. 14 And DOE estimates that 15 percent 15 increase in calculation intensity, which 16 corresponds to less than 0.01 percent increase 17 in the total burden, and if additional 18 calculation is required for 50 percent of 19 units, the total increment increase and cost 20 of testing will range from $50 to $6,500, or a 21 very small percent of the average annual value

22 added.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 241 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Cousins? 2 MR. COUSINS: Yes, Steve Cousins. 3 Can you elucidate or explain greater detail, 4 the second bullet, the second item, 5 manufacturers only required to show 6 compliance?

7 I don't understand the statement. 8 Explain it to me. 9 MS. WIDDER: That would be similar 10 to the night curtain provision, where if a 11 case was sold with lighting occupancy sensors 12 or scheduled controls, as an option, so, that 13 the same case was sold with that energy 14 conservation feature and without, if the case 15 passed without the energy conservation feature 16 employed, the case could be sold with or 17 without -- could continue to be sold with the 18 option of employing those or not. Does that 19 make sense? Thank you. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim? 21 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI, 22 and that's not going to be the case, because

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 242 1 you'll have to show the DOE that indeed -- I 2 mean, how are you going to be able to claim 3 those efficiency gains without the test? 4 And again, this goes back to the 5 way where DOE is going to define basic model 6 groups, going to define all of this, which 7 again, I mean, I'm expecting DOE to require. 8 So, in your analysis, I think you 9 need to take into account the fact that you 10 will have to test for this. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, back to Steve. 12 MR. COUSINS: Pertaining to that 13 comment that was just made, that has yet to be 14 determined, has it not? 15 I mean, the details around 16 certification and compliance, that's in the 17 process. It's not cast in concrete. 18 Second of all, what if a 19 manufacturer never claims any benefit or lower 20 energy consumption, due to having this 21 controller in there? He may sell it with the 22 controller in there, but he makes no claims,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 243 1 whatsoever, no advertising, nothing around the 2 lower energy consumption. 3 MR. LLENZA: Yes, this is Charles 4 Llenza, Department of Energy. 5 These are moving targets. We have 6 the compliance certification requirements 7 coming out soon. This is for the prior 8 standard, which does not address any of these 9 issues. So, you won't get any credit anyhow,

10 because we don't measure them. 11 What will happen is that when we 12 revise the compliance certification 13 requirements next edition, then they would 14 have to take into consideration what we're 15 coming up with the standards, in terms of the 16 commercial refrigeration equipment, sometime 17 in the next two years. 18 Then we will roll in some type of 19 provision that when you certify and do 20 compliance, maybe we do a component level 21 factor that then you can use that and certify 22 you're getting credit for energy savings.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 244 1 It's possible. 2 I'm just saying that right now, 3 we're not at that junction, but when we get to 4 that junction, we'll have to resolve an issue.

5 DR. AMRANE: And the reason I'm 6 saying -- this is Karim, again, with AHRI. 7 The reason I'm saying this is because we've 8 seen the proposed rule that DOE came up with 9 on certification, and DOE's interpretation is 10 that anything that changes the energy 11 consumption of the product must be considered 12 -- must be certified to DOE. 13 So, again, unless something has 14 changed dramatically from the proposed rule, I 15 mean, this is what manufacturers -- 16 MR. LLENZA: No, but that proposed 17 rule will not be a passive rule. That 18 proposed rule is for the standards that we 19 have now set out, that in order to be able to 20 get credit for the 2012 standard, which we 21 don't have these controls, which we don't have 22 a lot of these devices because the test

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 245 1 procedure was adopted as was, not looking into 2 future features and future trends in 3 equipment, energy saving type equipment. 4 So, not a perfect world, I agree 5 with you. We will have to look into a way -- 6 this is going to be the new challenge for the 7 compliance and certification, how do we get to 8 a comfortable place where industry feels 9 comfortable that they're getting credit for 10 the devices, which are not in this particular 11 edition of the compliance certification, a 12 rule that's coming up? 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Jon, I'm going to 14 let him finish this slide, because you weren't 15 quite finished, were you, Andrew? 16 MR. NAWROCKI: Yes, there was one 17 more bullet, yes, back to the provisions for 18 testing cases at temperatures greater than 30 19 -- 38 degrees Fahrenheit. 20 This is, again, an identical 24 21 hour test. So, it should not increase the

22 burden.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 246 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so, Jon? 2 MR. McHUGH: So, just going back 3 again, to the occupant sensor, given that this 4 is a simple calculation, doesn't require 5 another test. Why wouldn't someone basically 6 do the rating, both direction -- both with and 7 without the occupant sensor, since this is not 8 rocket science? You're just measuring the 9 power consumption with and without the -- or 10 at high and low level, and then there is this 11 equation. I mean, we're talking, I don't 12 know, 10 minutes, or something. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Cousins? 14 MR. COUSINS: Interesting point, 15 Jon. From my point of view, it should be 16 optional. I mean, give the manufacturer -- it 17 could very well be that it's less burdensome 18 for the manufacturer to actually run the 19 additional test, as opposed to doing the 20 calculation. 21 MR. McHUGH: Yes, let them do it, 22 if they want to, but in terms of burden to

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 247 1 industry, it seems like this is a pretty 2 minimal burden to industry, just to calculate 3 the -- you know, put the numbers in the 4 equation. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 6 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, I've got a long 7 history with a lot of this stuff, and it just 8 occurs to me that if the difference is small, 9 the manufacturers may not report it, may not 10 take credit for it and in most cases, they 11 report a value that they're quite certain will 12 not -- that they won't exceed, if somebody 13 were to call them on it and test it, and I 14 can't imagine somebody is going to get excited 15 if they use less energy than they claim, 16 especially if it's not very much. 17 On the other hand, if the 18 difference is large, there may be some 19 benefit, if there are incentive programs and 20 ENERGY STAR and everything else out there, 21 there may be some reason to claim it, and they 22 probably will.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 248 1 It's encouraging that at least we 2 come up with some rational way to value that 3 in the test procedure, so that everybody kind 4 of understands the -- how it was derived, the 5 terms and conditions under which it was 6 derived, because in our business, we go out 7 and measure things a lot in the field. 8 We spend a lot of money to go out 9 and measure things in the field, and I can 10 adjust what I find in the field, if I know how 11 the thing was tested. 12 So, having that information is all

13 I need.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Charles Llenza? 15 MR. LLENZA: Charles Llenza, 16 Department of Energy. Once again, if 17 something is well worth the time to get the 18 credit, you submit a waiver, and I think that 19 that's the best way to put in our record, that 20 the test procedure is not doing something 21 right, and you know, we will revise this test 22 procedure again. We're hopefully, capturing,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 249 1 you know, another big chunk of what this 2 should do, the test procedure, in terms of 3 getting credit. 4 It's not a perfect world. We don't 5 expect to get everything right, but we're 6 certainly open to suggestions from the 7 industry on how to improve the test procedure, 8 to capture more energy savings. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Cousins? 10 MR. COUSINS: And I recognize, this 11 is a certification compliance type discussion,12 but you know, from our point of view at Coca13 Cola, we'd like to reduce the certification 14 requirements and any gotchas that might come 15 out of, you know, any kind of enforcement 16 programs. 17 What we would prefer to see is, we 18 would prefer to not see a mandate where you 19 have to do multiple certifications on a 20 cabinet, as to whether it's got occupancy

21 sensors or not. 22 So, to that end, we currently are

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 250 1 using occupancy sensors on the majority of our 2 cabinets, and I would not want to see us have 3 to do multiple certifications of cabinets, as 4 to whether or not we use those occupancy 5 sensors. And I'm talking about the program 6 that's going on today, and getting the details 7 around certification and compliance and 8 enforcement and so forth, not what goes on 9 beyond, you know, 2012. 10 MR. LLENZA: Right, and I assume 11 that that has to -- this is Charles Llenza, 12 Department of Energy, again -- with the basic 13 model concept and how you have to have a 14 different testing for the different basic

15 models. 16 I think this is beyond the scope of 17 this meeting, but I am sure to be glad to take 18 this discussion to the enforcement component 19 of our -- the Department. 20 So, again, in your written 21 comments, we'll be glad to provide this, not 22 only to the technical side of the house, but

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 251 1 also, to the legal side of the house. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim? 3 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane. I guess 4 that's a message for General Counsel. I think 5 there has been a disconnect, here. 6 I mean, this rulemaking and 7 compliance enforcement is being handled by 8 General Counsel's Office and yes, there was 9 one public hearing and that was about it, and 10 now, we're going to have to comply, the 11 manufacturers will have to comply, and people 12 are going to be very surprised with the number 13 of tests they're going to have to do, to 14 comply with the DOE regulations, if the final 15 rule is about what we've shown in the proposed

16 rule. 17 So, I think I'm encouraging General 18 Counsel, legal counsel, here, to interact more 19 with stakeholders on this issue. There are 20 certain products, like commercial 21 refrigeration, walk-ins and other product 22 category, where manufacturers are going to be

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 252 1 severely burdened by what DOE, at least based 2 on what DOE is proposing in the NOPR. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, I want to call 4 your attention to this final comment box, 5 because I don't recall receiving any comment 6 today on the impact on small entities, to see 7 if anybody does wish to make any comment on 8 that, just so we're doing our diligence. 9 Do you see the comment box? "DOE 10 seeks comment on its certification that the 11 proposed test procedure changes will not have 12 a significant impact on a substantial number 13 of small entities." Any comment on that? 14 Yes, Massoud? 15 MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan, 16 Southern Store Fixtures. I would submit in 17 writing, in comments, but I can tell you here 18 that it would have an impact on our operation. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, okay. Yes,

20 John? 21 MR. DAVIS: Yes, I would just say, 22 as far as the number of small entities, my

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 253 1 guess was the number -- I'm going back to the 2 number about -- what was it, 22? I think 3 that's a little low. I'd probably put it 4 closer to 35 or 40. I mean, I'm going back a

5 comment box. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Is this 7 manufacturers or suppliers, supply chain?

8 MR. DAVIS: Manufacturers.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Just manufacturers? 10 MR. DAVIS: Yes, I think that's a 11 little light, just based upon what I see. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 13 MR. DAVIS: And while I'm talking, 14 and this might be off task a little bit, but 15 it doesn't go to the night covers and the 16 occupancy sensors, but in terms of burden for 17 manufacturers, big and small, probably the 18 biggest thing you can do is try to get it 19 aligned with EPA, so that -- I mean, that will 20 cut it in half, and we can have one set of 21 test procedures, with two sets of performance 22 criteria. That would help us more, than

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 254 1 anything else. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so, we've 3 reached the point in the agenda where there is 4 another opportunity anybody what wishes to do 5 so, to make concluding remarks, to cover a 6 summary of other issues that haven't been 7 raised sufficiently today. 8 Okay, we're going to push up the 9 final slide, would you? 10 So, from that, then, I will thank 11 you from my perspective. We've had a very 12 constructive meeting, and we really covered a 13 lot of ground, efficiently. Please fill out 14 the evaluation form. The Department reads 15 them carefully, and I'll turn it back to

16 Charles Llenza. 17 MR. LLENZA: I just want to point 18 out a couple of quick things here. 19 Any reference to the test 20 procedure, please use the following 21 information on your comments, in terms of your 22 heading or direction in your email.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 255 1 Also, the comment period ends 2 January 24, 2011. We would appreciate that we 3 try to do the best we can to stick to that 4 deadline. 5 Also, I wanted to provide here the 6 website links and also here is my email and my 7 phone number and also, John Cymbalsky, the 8 supervisor for appliance standards. Also, he 9 can be contacted, if needed. 10 I wanted to also point out, in the 11 slides here, the back-up slides on the 12 equations, that we provided a list of the 13 different questions on the slide 69, and the 14 additional questions that we asked, in terms 15 of the particulars for the NOPR. 16 So, this is -- was provided as just 17 an aide, to everybody, to make sure that 18 everybody answered or provided information in

19 these areas. 20 Thanks for attending today, and 21 again, we'll be glad to receive your comments

22 and --

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 256 1 MR. HON: Quick one, for you. We2 have a list of who attended the meetings in3 house, but we don't have any record for us to 4 use of who may have been online, as well. 5 MR. LLENZA: Yes, in the past, I've 6 received that and we will be posting some 7 information on who attended the webinar and 8 the questions from the webinar. 9 MR. HON: Thank you, okay. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 11 MR. LLENZA: That's it, that's all

12 I have. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, to all of 14 you. 15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 16 matter went off the record at 1:10 p.m.)

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This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 289

Test Procedure for Commercial Refrigeration Equipment

US DOE

01-06-11

Washington, DC