UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:

IN THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION OFFICE OF HEARINGS

IN RE: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC RESPONDENT DOCKET NO. FAA-2015-0642

_____________________________________________________

TELECONFERENCE HEARING BEFORE THE HONORABLE J.E. SULLIVAN WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 18, 2015 1:31 P.M. HISTORIC JORDAN SPRINGS 1160 JORDAN SPRINGS ROAD STEPHENSON, VIRGINIA 22656IN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 2

1 AP PEARANCES 2 ONBEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF, 3 FE DERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION: 4 R OBERT SPITZER, ESQUIRE 5 FE DERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION 6 N ORTHWEST MOUNTAIN REGION (ANM-7) 7 1 601 LIND AVENUE SOUTHWEST 8 R ENTON, WASHINGTON 980 9 T ELEPHONE: 425.227.1847 10 F ACSIMILE: 425.227.1007 11 E -MAIL: ROBERT.SPITZER@FAA.GOV 12 13 ONBEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT, 14 RU GBY AVIATION, LLC: 15 J .C. BECKER, ESQUIRE 16 J. C. BECKER, INCORPPRATED, P.S. 17 1 3300 BOTHELL-EVERETT HIGHWAY 18 S UITE 604 19 M ILL CREEK, WASHINGTON 98082 20 T ELEPHONE: 425.280.2004 21 E -MAIL: JC@LOJCB.COM 22 23 24 25IN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 3

1 HEARING 2 WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 18, 2015 3 1:31 P.M. 4 THE COURT: Good afternoon, this is Judge 5 Sullivan. Do I have Mr. Robert Spitzer on the line? 6 MR. SPITZER: Present, Your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay. And Mr. J. C. Becker? 8 MR. BECKER: I'm here, Your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Okay. And Mr. Spitzer, anyone 10 else appearing on the line with you as an observer? 11 MR. SPITZER: It's just me, Your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Becker, same question to 13 you. 14 MR. BECKER: Same answer, Your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 Madam Court Reporter, are you ready? 17 COURT REPORTER: I am, Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Let's go on the record in 19 the matter of Rugby Aviation, LLC. This is docket 20 number FAA-2015-0642. Today is Wednesday, November 21 18, 2015, and the parties have appeared today by 22 telephone for a pre-hearing status conference. 23 The claimant's counsel, Mr. Robert Spitzer, 24 is appearing on behalf of the Federal Aviation 25 Administration, which I'll hereinafter refer to as theIN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 4

1 FAA. The respondent, Rugby Aviation, LLC, is 2 appearing via its attorney of record, Mr. J. C. 3 Becker. 4 Mr. Becker, I have a short question for you 5 about service. Our current service list here at the 6 Office of Hearings indicates that we have been sending 7 a copy of materials to someone identified as 8 "President" at an address in Bellingham, Washington. 9 I'm wondering if we still need to do that; and if so, 10 if you could give us the name of the person we're 11 actually sending material to. 12 MR. BECKER: To answer the question, first, 13 I guess, no, we'll stipulate to service on the 14 attorney of record ... 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. BECKER: ... to save the expense and 17 time. And the president, just the background 18 information, is Skip Jansen of Rugby, so ... 19 THE COURT: Well ... 20 MR. BECKER: ... I will provide a copy of 21 anything I receive to him immediately. 22 THE COURT: Okay, I'll strike that second 23 address from our service list. Thank you very much. 24 MR. BECKER: Sure. 25 THE COURT: I'll note that, essentially, theIN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 5

1 history of this case, very briefly, is that on May 5, 2 2015, Judge Goodwin, who was previously assigned to 3 this case, issued a procedural order in which he 4 directed the parties to conclude all discovery on or 5 before August 1, 2015 and to be prepared to present 6 the case for hearing shortly after the August 1, 2015 7 date in Seattle, Washington. A hearing was never 8 specified or set by Judge Goodwin and, in fact, Judge 9 Goodwin left the Office of Hearings for greener 10 pastures professionally, and on September 4, 2015, an 11 order reassigning the proceeding was filed, which 12 reassigned the case to me. 13 On September 14, 2015, an order setting 14 deadlines for the parties' informal case discussion 15 and report and setting a pre-hearing status conference 16 was filed. On October 29, 2015, a joint status report 17 was filed by the parties, leading to today's 18 conference discussion. 19 You've indicated that you have no 20 outstanding motions and that all discovery is 21 complete. So, what I'm going to do is just chat a 22 little bit with you about background information that 23 will help me be on board with where the parties 24 apparently have already arrived. So, let's talk 25 about, first, the complaint that was filed with theIN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 6

1 Office of Hearings on April 22nd, 2015. It's a little 2 unclear to me, and Mr. Spitzer, you'll probably be 3 able to help the Court in that. How many violations 4 are being charged? I'm looking at page two of what 5 appears to be a three-page complaint, and it appears 6 that there may be simply two violations, but I could 7 be wrong. So, Mr. Spitzer, could you identify that 8 for me, please? 9 MR. SPITZER: Just one second, Your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MR. SPITZER: Yes, Your Honor, we're 12 alleging a violation of 14CFR Section 119.5(G) and 13 14CFR Section 119.9(A). 14 THE COURT: Okay. And you've also requested 15 on page three of the three-page complaint a total 16 civil penalty of $11,000. Can you tell me if there's 17 any particular way that you're breaking that out 18 between violation one and violation number two? 19 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, the breakout of 20 the violation is based upon the number of factual 21 allegations. I'm not prepared at this point to 22 discuss, and it's not any reason other than I just am 23 not familiar enough with the case right now to discuss 24 with you the reasons for the civil penalty. But 25 typically the civil penalty is broken down amongst theIN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 7

1 number of factual allegations that forms the basis for 2 each regulatory violation. 3 THE COURT: Okay, thank you very much. 4 Turning to, staying with you, excuse me, Mr. 5 Spitzer. You indicated in your letter that you 6 thought the case would take a full day in Seattle. 7 This was the letter that accompanied the original 8 complaint and the request for hearing. Was that 9 intended to be for everybody or just for the FAA's 10 side of the case? 11 MR. SPITZER: This is intended to be for 12 everybody, Your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Okay. How many fact witnesses, 14 then, would you propose to be calling for this one-day 15 hearing in which you would take a half day's time? 16 MR. SPITZER: There should be no more than 17 two fact witnesses, Your Honor, and possibly just one. 18 THE COURT: And what about expert witnesses, 19 if any? 20 MR. SPITZER: There will probably be one 21 expert witness. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 And turning to you, Mr. Becker, let me ask 24 you the same question. Was it your intent to say that 25 one day was for the whole case or just for your sideIN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 8

1 of the case? 2 MR. BECKER: No, I agree with Mr. Spitzer, 3 Your Honor. Probably the only time in the case I 4 will, but I agree this much. 5 THE COURT: Well, thank you for allowing me 6 to be present for this moment. How many witnesses are 7 you going to call, ideally, and can you tell me the 8 difference between your fact witness and any expert 9 witness? 10 MR. BECKER: We have potentially two fact 11 witnesses, no expert witnesses, and we, of course, 12 reserve the right to cross examine the FAA witnesses 13 as well. 14 THE COURT: Sure. It's a little unclear to 15 me, and perhaps we can talk a little bit about that. 16 In the respondent's answer, there was some indication 17 to that elsewhere. In the respondent's answer, which 18 was filed on April 17, 2015, there appears to be an 19 affirmative defense of equitable estoppel, and I'm 20 looking specifically at page two of the two-page 21 answer. There also appears to be an assertion of 22 factual irregularities within the FAA that are being 23 asserted as a, an affirmative defense. I have had a 24 chance, as I'm sure both counsel have had over their 25 years of experience, to address equitable estoppelIN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 9

1 claims that are raised in this and other courts. And 2 I'm wondering, Mr. Becker, in terms of this particular 3 affirmative defense, if there is something that we can 4 address at a pre-trial level since that type of 5 defense is so specific and also fact-dependent and 6 also, I should mention, extraordinarily difficult to 7 raise and prove in these particular types of cases. 8 Is there a particular type of case or 9 particular facts that you know of right now that you 10 could alert me to; and if so, is it something that we 11 can address pre-trial before the parties go to the 12 expense of attending a one-day hearing? 13 MR. BECKER: Understood, Your Honor. The 14 difficulty with a pre-trial motion is that this is a 15 fact-dependent affirmative defense in that the 16 respondents are alleging that prior to detection, they 17 contacted the FAA and advised they were changing their 18 business organization, acquiring some assets, and 19 contacted the FAA for assistance and accommodating 20 that change. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. BECKER: That they were given incorrect 23 information by their POI, which they then relied on to 24 file documents with the NTSB and FAA that turned out 25 were ineffective. So, it would be tough to do it pre-IN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 10

1 trial, because you're going to have to hear the 2 testimony from my client, the president, as to the 3 efforts that he undertook prior to the FAA contacting 4 them and then hear from the FAA as to their version of 5 the events regarding the application for the addition 6 of the DBA. So, I'd looked at it from that 7 perspective, and I just couldn't find a basis to bring 8 a pre-trial motion to dismiss or, in this case, I 9 guess, rule, and so I'm just reserving these two 10 issues and alerting all parties, including the FAA, 11 that we are alleging that if, in fact, a violation is 12 determined by Your Honor, that it was the FAA's advice 13 and counsel that led to the violation itself, because 14 the forms were improperly filed. 15 THE COURT: Let's assume, just for the sake 16 of argument, that you are able to show that there was 17 reasonable reliance on incorrect information. It is 18 my understanding, and you may educate me if I'm wrong, 19 that essentially you also would have to show 20 affirmative misconduct by the FAA official in order to 21 meet your prima facie burden that equitable estoppel 22 could lie, at least as an affirmative defense as 23 opposed to potentially a mitigating circumstance to 24 address the penalty portion of the case. 25 MR. BECKER: Yes, and I'm familiar with theIN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 11

1 Cessna or the citation case, the jet case where they 2 talked about the FAA deliberately misleading. And, 3 factually, I don't have that evidence before me to 4 allege, but the testimony may reveal either sort of a 5 less than forthright approach, or at least maybe a 6 competency issue that you could consider in light of 7 that affirmative, you know, it's, it's alleged by the 8 respondent that they did everything they could, and 9 they got bad information. And, you're right, to 10 essentially dismiss the case, you're going to have to 11 show more than just to get a wrong answer. It's not 12 like an IRS case where if you have an opinion letter, 13 you're as good as gold. But, I think it can be 14 considered by you in the totality of their 15 circumstances in determining whether a violation 16 occurred and then, of course, the penalty you choose 17 to impose. So, if we're unsuccessful in convincing 18 you that you should just dismiss the complaint 19 outright, I think it should be considered as by way of 20 mitigation for any penalty that's imposed as to, you 21 know, the, not going to say the unclean hands of the 22 FAA, but the complicity of the FAA in the whole thing 23 and how it ended up happening. 24 This isn't a case where the FAA caught these 25 guys running ads by, you know, citizen complaints orIN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 12

1 something. This is a case where the respondent went 2 to them and said, "Hey, we're going to do this, and 3 what do we need to do," and then they relied on that. 4 They made changes and sent letters and applications 5 that apparently weren't correct according to the facts 6 presented by the FAA, and then the FAA came back on 7 another matter and said, "Hey, you're not supposed to 8 be doing this." 9 THE COURT: Yes, and I can understand why 10 your client, if those facts are proven to be true, 11 would feel aggrieved. 12 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, we, the FAA would 13 object to that characterization of the facts in this 14 case. 15 THE COURT: I understand. I'm just saying 16 if it were proved, if the allegation were proved. And 17 again, I would simply caution the respondent to know 18 that absent, you know, formative misconduct, the 19 equitable estoppel, as I understand the case law, both 20 at the FAA level and then throughout the country, 21 there is little movement or little room for a 22 dismissal absent that type of evidence being 23 presented. Certainly the respondent has every right 24 to raise the same kind of information in fact as, for 25 consideration in looking at the totality of theIN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 13

1 proposed fine. 2 Let's talk a little bit about the second 3 affirmative defense that has been addressed, at least 4 by the respondent's answer. And this one is with an 5 allegation that a failure of the FAA to follow 6 internal procedures warrants a waiver of the 7 imposition of sanctions. I will simply note that if 8 the respondent wishes to pursue this particular 9 defense, the Court would be requiring some type of 10 research with supportive authority. It's a novel and 11 creative affirmative defense and one that I have not 12 yet seen and ruled upon, so I would need the parties' 13 help in addressing some of the legal support for that. 14 And my question, I think, addressed to you, 15 Mr. Becker, is it's up to you when you want to do that 16 if you decide to pursue it. But do you have an idea 17 of when you'll make a decision about when that's going 18 to come into play, if at all? 19 MR. BECKER: Well, we're going to need, 20 again, testimony for Your Honor to consider it as far 21 as the briefing in case law, and I'm, you know, 22 prepared to do that now. It's just going to be fact23 dependent, because some of the testimony will need to 24 come from the FAA witnesses. I mean, my client can't 25 testify as to what the FAA did. He can testify as toIN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 14

1 what he did and what he applied and how he, the advice 2 he received, but I just ... 3 THE COURT: Well, maybe I didn't, I didn't 4 address this correctly. I would be interested to know 5 from you if you have any kind of case law support for 6 the assertion that that type of fact, if presented and 7 not disproved, rises to a level of an affirmative 8 defense that would require a waiver of the sanction. 9 I mean, is there anything that you know of at the tip 10 of your fingers right now that supports that kind of 11 relief? 12 MR. BECKER: Well, we have several cases 13 that talked about the application process. I can 14 think of one, and I'm looking right now at my computer 15 for the cite for you where the medical certificate was 16 denied because of an FAA procedural issue that the 17 hearing officer ultimately said was, had not been fair 18 to the applicant. I'm just trying to ... 19 THE COURT: Is that something that's an NTSB 20 case? 21 MR. BECKER: Yes. 22 THE COURT: Okay, and you understand that 23 the NTSB has different rules and regulations than the 24 ... 25 MR. BECKER: I do.IN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 15

1 THE COURT: ... FAA in civil penalty cases? 2 MR. BECKER: I do, and I understand, you 3 know, there's not a lot of case law decisions that I 4 can bring forward at this point, just kind of point 5 them out to you, but I 6 certainly ... 7 THE COURT: Okay, well, why don't I just, 8 why don't I just ask you to consider the fact that the 9 Court will be asking for some information. I 10 certainly am happy to look at NTSB cases as guidance 11 in the absence of anything that's before, that has 12 been, I should change it, in the absence of any 13 specific guidance that's coming out of the 14 administrators' office or that has been issued by this 15 office or the U.S. Court of Appeals. So, certainly 16 happy to look at anything, but if you decide to pursue 17 this particular defense, the Court will be asking for 18 your assistance in providing some supportive case law 19 and then, of course, asking the FAA to respond to 20 that. So, right ... 21 MR. BECKER: And I guess I'm trying to be up 22 front and fair about all the potential issues. I 23 mean, some of these things might be, you know, argued 24 later on, but I know that ... 25 THE COURT: Right.IN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 16

1 MR. BECKER: ... I've put these notices up 2 there. I don't want to surprise the FAA and say that 3 they hadn't been adequately put on notice that we were 4 going to be arguing their own procedures were at issue 5 here, which is what we've done. So, I ... 6 THE COURT: Sure. 7 MR. BECKER: ... it's my burden to show that 8 those procedures were unfair, violated at least, if 9 not the existing law, the spirit of the law, and I'm 10 trying to give you the authority to decide whether 11 that's appropriate or not and reserve those issues. 12 THE COURT: Well, I already have the 13 authority to decide. It's whether or not I feel I 14 have the authority to grant that relief. 15 MR. BECKER: No, I understand totally. And 16 I guess what I'm trying to say is, you know, I'm, 17 we're always, we try to belt-and-suspenders our answer 18 so that we don't get precluded later from arguing 19 something that they say wasn't raised. So, I've 20 raised it, and I understand it's my burden and 21 obligation to provide you with the necessary proof and 22 the case law to grant my request. 23 THE COURT: Okay, thank you very much. 24 Let's, let's then talk about witness lists 25 and exchange of exhibits as well as a hearing dateIN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 17

1 itself. Just so that you folks know, right now, 2 because of Judge Goodwin's absence from the Office, 3 I'm temporarily covering the entire country. 4 MR. BECKER: Wow. 5 THE COURT: So, my case load calendar 6 availability appears to be fairly limited right now, 7 which may give you more opportunity to discuss these 8 matters privately. But in the interim, let's just 9 chat about a court date. And I'm going to look at my 10 calendar silently for a moment. We're going to be 11 looking at probably the latter part of 2016, just to 12 give you an ... 13 MR. SPITZER: Understood. 14 THE COURT: ... idea of my time. So, give 15 me a minute, and I'll get into that portion of the 16 calendar. 17 MR. BECKER: Well, fortunately, my client's 18 neither in jail nor unable to work in his profession 19 or their profession, so, time is not of essence to, on 20 respondent's perspective. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Okay. I'm sorry, did you 22 say your client was in jail? 23 MR. BECKER: No, I'm saying I don't have a 24 client in jail, and he's able to operate, so time's 25 not of the essence. Sometimes when we're representingIN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 18

1 clients, they're facing incarceration or ... 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MR. BECKER: ... loss of a business and, I 4 get the same problems in General District Court here 5 in Seattle, too, saying, yes, we're looking at an 18- 6 month out trial date and, you know ... 7 THE COURT: Yes. Well, let's do this. I 8 actually have currently a case that's scheduled to be 9 in Seattle in November 2016. And maybe the best way 10 to do this is to piggy back onto this time period. 11 And I'm looking at, trying to make sure that I, I 12 don't schedule this right before Thanksgiving for you 13 folks. How about the week of, the latter part of the 14 week of November 1st, 2016? I know this sounds like a 15 very far away time, and I apologize for that. 16 MR. BECKER: No, I actually do this all the 17 time, and as of today, my entire week of November 1st 18 is open and have complete access to whatever date and 19 time you want to set it. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 Let me turn, then, Mr. Spitzer, to you. 22 What's your calendar availability look like about a 23 year from now? 24 MR. SPITZER: As well, Your Honor, the 25 agency counsel is entirely free for the month ofIN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 19

1 November 2016. 2 THE COURT: Do either of you have a 3 preference for either starting on Wednesday or on 4 Thursday? And the reason I say that is because what 5 I'm going to be doing is reserving a day and a half of 6 time on my calendar because I have had experiences, 7 and it may not occur with the two of you, where people 8 underestimate the time it's going to take, 9 particularly if, for whatever reason, a witness gets 10 lost in traffic, there's a fire drill at the 11 courthouse, which I've had, you know, those kinds of 12 things. I always want to give us just a little bit of 13 a comfort zone in terms of time. 14 So, Mr. Spitzer, do you prefer to start on a 15 Wednesday or a Thursday? 16 MR. SPITZER: I'd prefer to start on a 17 Wednesday, Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Becker, same question 19 to you. 20 MR. BECKER: No, that's fine. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Then let's plan on 22 Wednesday, that would be November 2nd, 2016. This 23 will be in Seattle, Washington, unless the parties 24 want to tell me that that venue needs to be changed. 25 Mr. Spitzer?IN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 20

1 MR. SPITZER: The time and date and location 2 work for us, Your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 Mr. Becker? 5 MR. BECKER: My question is, are you 6 planning on a 9 o'clock start? 7 THE COURT: Yes, this would, it would be 8 9:00 to 5:00, and what I do is I usually take a little 9 mini break between 9:00 and approximately noon, say 15 10 minutes, a one and 15 minute-hour lunch, so that 11 people can get out of the building if they need to, 12 and then a 15-minute recess in the afternoon. 13 Obviously, if there are other circumstances that 14 require mini recesses, we can always do that. But 15 9:00 to 5:00 is the default standard. And then what I 16 will do is I will also reserve on the calendar 17 November 3rd, which is a Thursday, 2016, Seattle, 18 Washington, I'll just say 9:00 to noon. We may not 19 use that time, but having it available means that 20 we'll have a courtroom available if needed. 21 MR. BECKER: Makes sense to me. 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 MR. BECKER: Are we going to be in tax court 24 again? 25 THE COURT: That's where we like to start,IN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 21

1 because it's easy to contact them. So, I have not 2 been there in Seattle yet. Where is that, exactly? 3 Is that in the Robert Jackson or the Henry M. Jackson 4 building, or is it elsewhere? 5 MR. BECKER: Yes, the Scoop Jackson 6 building. It's downtown just off the freeway. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Okay, we'll, what I'll 8 do, typically, is, excuse me, what I usually do is I 9 will send out the notice of the actual courtroom and 10 address of the courtroom about 60 to 90 days before 11 the hearing starts. The reason I delay to that point 12 in time is because it takes some staff time to get 13 that all set up. And if people settle, it means that 14 then we have to take more time to cancel all the 15 arrangements. And so, we find that essentially 16 waiting until about two to three months before the 17 hearing really cuts down on a lot of time on things 18 that we don't need to do. 19 So, I also like to schedule a last pre20 hearing status conference around that same time just 21 to make sure that we are all ready, that there are no 22 problems, and if the parties are settling, then I know 23 that and I can tell my staff that they don't have to 24 go out and look for courtroom space. 25 So, let's talk next about a pre-hearingIN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 22

1 status conference and then also the exchange of 2 witness lists and exhibits. So, I'm going to look at 3 my calendar again. Let's talk about a pre-hearing 4 status conference, final one sometime in the very last 5 part of August 2016. Mr. Spitzer, do you want to give 6 me a week that looks good for you if that, if any, for 7 setting a one-hour telephone conference? 8 MR. SPITZER: I have no, nothing on my 9 schedule, Your Honor, for August 2016. It's entirely 10 open. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Becker, any, any blackout 12 dates for you? 13 MR. BECKER: I'm also open, Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Okay. Let's plan on a Tuesday, 15 August 30, 2016, and I'm three hours ahead of you, so 16 how about if we set this for, would 1:30 eastern time 17 work again? That would be, what, 10:30 Pacific time? 18 Mr. Spitzer? 19 MR. SPITZER: Yes, Your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Okay. And Mr. Becker? 21 MR. BECKER: That works for me, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Let's plan on 1:30 p.m. eastern 23 time which, as I understand it, translates to 10:30 in 24 the morning for the two of you. And that would be on 25 Tuesday, August 30, 2016IN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 23

1 Mr. Spitzer, now let's talk about the due date for 2 exchanging and filing witness lists and exhibits. Do 3 you prefer to exchange those 60 days out, 45 days out, 4 30 days out? What's your comfort range? 5 MR. SPITZER: Thirty is acceptable for DFA, 6 Your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Becker? What about 8 you? 9 MR. BECKER: I agree. I think we've pretty 10 much done everything, so, yes, that works. 11 THE COURT: Then let's plan on an exchange 12 of witness lists and exhibits, I don't know if you 13 have an interest in this, but I just looked at my 14 calendar, and I also have, and I'm sorry I didn't see 15 this before. I also have some time, oh, no I don't. 16 Excuse me, never mind. I thought I'd have some time 17 on another case that's set in Seattle, but I'm booked 18 right before that, so that doesn't work. How about 19 just doing this one month out and say exchange of 20 exhibits and witness lists by October 4, 2016? Does 21 that work for you, Mr. Spitzer? 22 MR. SPITZER: Yes, Your Honor. 23 THE COURT: And how about you, Mr. Becker? 24 MR. BECKER: It does. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Spitzer, on behalf ofIN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 24

1 your client, is there anything else we need to address 2 for you today? 3 MR. SPITZER: No, Your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Becker, same 5 question. 6 MR. BECKER: Nothing, Your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay. What I'll do is I'll send 8 out an order codifying in writing these particular 9 dates and deadlines and the pre-hearing status 10 conference. I'll also include in that order the name 11 and phone number of the attorney who works with me on 12 these cases. You've already had a chance to speak to 13 him briefly this afternoon. His name is Mr. Cody L. 14 Smith, and I'll encourage you to contact him if you 15 have any questions about the order if, on the rare 16 occasions that it happens, you see an error of some 17 kind that needs to be corrected in the order or if, 18 for whatever reason, you want to get back on my 19 calendar for a conference prior to our August 30, 2016 20 conference. The best way to do that is to call him up 21 with three mutually available dates that you've 22 already discussed between yourselves and see if he can 23 reserve it on my calendar. And once he reserves it, 24 then you can file whatever motions you have, if 25 needed, and you and I can then confer on the phoneIN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 25

1 fairly expeditiously about any needs that you might 2 have. 3 So, with that, it appears our business is 4 complete. I'll wish you both and the court reporter a 5 very happy Thanksgiving. We can go off the record, 6 and I wish you a good day. Thank you. 7 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your Honor. 8 COURT REPORTER: Happy Thanksgiving, Your 9 Honor. 10 THE COURT: Good bye. 11 MR. BECKER: Talk to you later, Mr. Spitzer. 12 (WHEREUPON, the Hearing was concluded at 2:04 p.m.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25IN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 26

1 STIPULATION 2 3 The foregoing matter was taken on the date, and at 4 the time and place set out on the title page hereof. 5 6 It was requested that the matter be taken by the 7 reporter and that the same be reduced to typewritten 8 form. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 251 2 3 4

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**Andrea F. Mikus** 20th NOVEMBER 2015IN E: RUGBY AVIATION, LLC November 18, 2015 VR # 2959-1 Page 28

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