U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

71–691 DTP WASHINGTON : 2001

EFFECTIVE DRUG PREVENTION EFFORTS IN OUR

SCHOOLS AND COMMUNITIES

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE,

DRUG POLICY, AND HUMAN RESOURCES

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON

GOVERNMENT REFORM

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED SIXTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

JUNE 5, 2000

Serial No. 106–213

Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpo.gov/congress/house

http://www.house.gov/reform

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office

Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: (202) 512–1800 Fax: (202) 512–2250

Mail: Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402–0001

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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM

DAN BURTON, Indiana, Chairman

BENJAMIN A. GILMAN, New York

CONSTANCE A. MORELLA, Maryland

CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut

ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida

JOHN M. MCHUGH, New York

STEPHEN HORN, California

JOHN L. MICA, Florida

THOMAS M. DAVIS, Virginia

DAVID M. MCINTOSH, Indiana

MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana

JOE SCARBOROUGH, Florida

STEVEN C. LATOURETTE, Ohio

MARSHALL ‘‘MARK’’ SANFORD, South

Carolina

BOB BARR, Georgia

DAN MILLER, Florida

ASA HUTCHINSON, Arkansas

LEE TERRY, Nebraska

JUDY BIGGERT, Illinois

GREG WALDEN, Oregon

DOUG OSE, California

PAUL RYAN, Wisconsin

HELEN CHENOWETH-HAGE, Idaho

DAVID VITTER, Louisiana

HENRY A. WAXMAN, California

TOM LANTOS, California

ROBERT E. WISE, JR., West Virginia

MAJOR R. OWENS, New York

EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York

PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania

PATSY T. MINK, Hawaii

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, Washington,

DC

CHAKA FATTAH, Pennsylvania

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland

DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio

ROD R. BLAGOJEVICH, Illinois

DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois

JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts

JIM TURNER, Texas

THOMAS H. ALLEN, Maine

HAROLD E. FORD, JR., Tennessee

JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois

———

BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont

(Independent)

KEVIN BINGER, Staff Director

DANIEL R. MOLL, Deputy Staff Director

DAVID A. KASS, Deputy Counsel and Parliamentarian

LISA SMITH ARAFUNE, Chief Clerk

PHIL SCHILIRO, Minority Staff Director

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE, DRUG POLICY, AND HUMAN RESOURCES

JOHN L. MICA, Florida, Chairman

BOB BARR, Georgia

BENJAMIN A. GILMAN, New York

CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut

ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida

MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana

STEVEN C. LATOURETTE, Ohio

ASA HUTCHINSON, Arkansas

DOUG OSE, California

DAVID VITTER, Louisiana

PATSY T. MINK, Hawaii

EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland

DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio

ROD R. BLAGOJEVICH, Illinois

JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts

JIM TURNER, Texas

JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois

EX OFFICIO

DAN BURTON, Indiana HENRY A. WAXMAN, California

SHARON PINKERTON, Staff Director and Chief Counsel

STEVE DILLINGHAM, Special Counsel

RYAN MCKEE, Clerk

CHERRI BRANSON, Minority Counsel

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C O N T E N T S

Page

Hearing held on June 5, 2000 ................................................................................. 1

Statement of:

Anderson, Mike, mayor, city of Mesquite, TX; Gary Westphal, assistant

chief of police, city of Mesquite, TX; Frank Seib, acting special agent

in charge, Drug Enforcement Agency; and Mike Pappas, Dallas County

Constable ....................................................................................................... 10

Mitchell, Dana, director, Mesquite Youth Intervention Program; Matt

Manning, fellowship of Christian Athletes; and Dora Flowers, security

officer, Bryan Adams High School ............................................................... 75

Ramos, Karen, principal, Bryan Adams High School; George Williams,

trustee, District IV, Dallas Board of Education; Justin Bowen, student;

and Dr. John D. Horn, superintendent, Mesquite Independent School

District ........................................................................................................... 52

Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by:

Anderson, Mike, mayor, city of Mesquite, TX, prepared statement of ......... 12

Bowen, Justin, student, prepared statement of ............................................. 62

Flowers, Dora, security officer, Bryan Adams High School, prepared

statement of ................................................................................................... 85

Manning, Matt, fellowship of Christian Athletes, prepared statement of ... 83

Mica, Hon. John L., a Representative in Congress from the State of

Florida, prepared statement of .................................................................... 5

Mitchell, Dana, director, Mesquite Youth Intervention Program, prepared

statement of ................................................................................................... 77

Pappas, Mike, Dallas County Constable, prepared statement of ................. 33

Ramos, Karen, principal, Bryan Adams High School, prepared statement

of ..................................................................................................................... 54

Seib, Frank, acting special agent in charge, Drug Enforcement Agency,

prepared statement of ................................................................................... 24

Sessions, Hon. Pete, a Representative in Congress from the State of

Texas, prepared statement of ....................................................................... 8

Westphal, Gary, assistant chief of police, city of Mesquite, TX, prepared

statement of ................................................................................................... 16

Williams, George, trustee, District IV, Dallas Board of Education, prepared statement of ........................................................................................ 57

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EFFECTIVE DRUG PREVENTION EFFORTS IN

OUR SCHOOLS AND COMMUNITIES

MONDAY, JUNE 5, 2000

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE, DRUG POLICY, AND HUMAN RESOURCES, COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM, Mesquite, TX.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., at West

Mesquite High School, Mesquite, TX, Hon. John L. Mica (chairman

of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Mica and Souder.

Also present: Representative Sessions.

Staff present: Steven Dillingham, special counsel; and Ryan

McKee, clerk.

Mr. MICA. Good morning. I would like to call this hearing of the

Subcommittee on Criminal Justice, Drug Policy, and Human Resources to order. For the information of those visiting this morning,

I am John Mica, chairman of the subcommittee.

This hearing today is part of a series of national hearings that

we have been conducting, across the country and also in our Nation’s capital, dealing with our efforts to combat illegal narcotics.

And this morning we are here in Mesquite, TX at the request of

our colleague, Mr. Sessions, the gentleman from Texas. We are

here to have an opportunity to learn more about effective drug prevention in our schools, and communities, which is the title of today’s hearing.

The order of business this morning will be first opening statements by members, and then we will hear from our first panel. I

believe we have three panels today. This is an investigations and

oversights subcommittee, of the Government Reform Committee of

House of Representatives. I will inform our witnesses that we ask

you to limit your oral presentations before the subcommittee to 5

minutes, and we will, upon request through the chair, include in

the record any extraneous material, data, information, lengthy

statements for part of the official record of this proceeding today.

With those opening comments, I will proceed with my opening

statement, and then I will yield to other Members.

Today, this subcommittee will examine the impact of illegal

drugs in and around the city of Mesquite and the surrounding

areas, including the major population center and transportation

hub of Dallas. We will focus on law enforcement and community responses to drug challenges, especially promising prevention initiatives.

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As Chair of the Subcommittee on Criminal Justice, Drug Policy,

and Human Resources, I am very pleased to be holding today’s

here in West Mesquite High School. I want to take this opportunity

to express special thanks to Representative Pete Sessions for his

invitation to have the hearing here in his district. We appreciate,

and I personally do, his continued support, interest, leadership and

strong commitment to combating illegal narcotics and protecting

public safety. I know that public service and law enforcement are

matters of personal dedication and a family tradition for Representative Sessions.

This subcommittee has been one of the most active in Congress.

Last year, the majority of our 28 hearings were devoted to America’s drug problems, including both supply and demand policy and

initiatives. This year, we are increasing the pace. Despite time-consuming congressional issues that range from trade relations to tax

reductions, we are continuing our hearings and oversight of our

Nation’s policies and practices in combating illegal and dangerous

narcotics, and also conducting field hearings throughout the United

States to learn from the grassroots how we can do a more effective

job in dealing with this national problem.

On May 26, we held hearings addressing the problem of drug

trafficking through the U.S. mail and through commercial carriers.

That was held in our Nation’s capital. On May 30th, we conducted

a hearing in New Orleans, LA examining local drug enforcement

and prevention initiatives that included a drug testing program,

which is now in the private schools and expanding to public

schools. On June 1st, just a few days ago, in Orlando and the

neighboring area of my congressional district, we focused on the increasingly terrible problem of what is commonly referred to as club

drugs, such as Ecstasy, which have become popular at all-night

parties called raves. And we found in New Orleans and Orlando,

and other parts of the country, this is a new challenge that we are

all facing, and a very serious challenge.

While we average more than one hearing per week, and remain

actively engaged in all forms of government oversight, that is a responsibility chartered to our subcommittee, fighting illegal narcotics remains our foremost priority. This priority will continue in the

future and with the full support of Speaker Hastert, who chaired

this subcommittee and was responsible for some of the increased

assets and attention brought to this community and this region

when it was the victim of an epidemic of heroin overdoses.

Many members, including those joining us today, recognize the

continued importance and urgency of this effort. We really only

touched the surface of what we need to do in combating illegal narcotics. We have a very serious challenge ahead of us, including the

problem of making up for lost ground due to a number of administration failures in not treating our Nation’s drug epidemic seriously

or expeditiously.

Today, we have some very distinguished guest witnesses and

dedicated officials and citizens who are contributing in critical

ways to fight the terrible scourge of drugs that threaten our States

and communities. Today’s witnesses serve on the front of lines of

the war against drugs here in this community, and I believe they

are very well positioned to understand the local threat and reVerDate 11-MAY-2000 10:35 May 31, 2001 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00006 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\71691.TXT HGOVREF1 PsN: HGOVREF1
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sponses that are needed. And a part of our philosophy, and Mr.

Sessions’ philosophy is that we listen to the local communities and

local officials and take those ideas and suggestions to Washington

and try to implement that, so we can be a partner.

Many communities are experiencing success through innovative

initiatives and exemplary programs. While in the Nation’s capital,

the word programs may conjure visions of large bureaucracies and

piles of paperwork, here in Mesquite, programs and initiatives

refer to local officials taking direct and immediate actions to make

a difference. And often in a cost-effective manner, sometimes in

contrast to the way we do things in Washington.

I look forward to learning from the local perspective and how

drug and law enforcement officials and school and communities

leaders deal with the serious drug threats they face here, and how

they meet those challenges and learn that today on a first-hand

basis. It is especially important that we obtain the insights of those

who dedicate their lives to educating our youth and to assist them

in reaching adulthood as healthy and productive citizens. These

educators and community leaders make all the difference in influencing our youth in their behaviors, and in preventing them from

abusing and dealing with dangerous drugs. While preventing the

first instance of drug abuse is our highest goal, we must find ways

to rescue those who appear to be on the wrong path and are now

experimenting with or addicted to illegal narcotics.

Can we identify prevention and treatment approaches and programs that will stop drug abuse and reinforce individual responsibility? If we can, we must act without delay in supporting those

successful approaches. Experience has shown that States, cities

and communities and local community based organizations are the

true laboratories of democracy that develop our most successful initiatives in combating illegal narcotics.

Examples of successful approaches in responding to the drug crisis seldom originate in Washington, DC. For example, local governments first implemented the concept and practice of drug courts.

One of the first drug courts was established more than a decade

ago in my home State, in Dade County, which is principally the

Miami area. Over the past decade, drug courts have multiplied by

hundreds in States and communities across America.

I recently introduced a bill, H.R. 4493, which is entitled, ‘‘A Prosecution Drug Treatment Alternative to Prison Act of 2000.’’ That

legislation is intended to dedicate Federal resources to assist States

and communities in treating non-violent offenders who are the victims of drug addiction. The prototype of this legislation was developed more than a decade ago by a local prosecutor in Brooklyn, NY.

It allows prosecutors to select a rigorous treatment program that

mandates strict observance of program rules. The prosecutor has

the leverage of a substantial prison sentence if an offender violates

the program requirements.

Evaluation results of the program indicate high treatment retention rates, low recidivism and significant cost savings. The program

promotes a common-sense effective option for prosecutors as well as

a valuable opportunity to offenders who are serious about reforming their lives.

4

This hearing is designed to gather new information on successful

drug prevention approaches. Recent experience and research indicates that there is no single solution for all communities. And I am

more convinced than ever, even after conducting our most recent

series of hearings, that we are going to have to find even more effective drug education and prevention programs. We have been

doing our best to curtail illegal narcotics from coming across our

borders, which is certainly a national responsibility.

Now we face the insidious threat of narcotics, illegal narcotics

and drugs, designer drugs, being produced at home in garages, locally in incredible quantities with incredible deadly results. The

hearing we held in Sacramento, CA illustrated the challenge we

are faced with, and the one last week in my own home district of

Orlando showed that some of these drugs, such as Ecstasy, which

are readily available, and other designer drugs, make us really

think that we have got to do a better job on the prevention education side, because this threat is coming at us from every direction.

It is my hope that we can work together, compare ideas, resources and all maintain our commitment to resolving probably one

of the greatest challenges of our generation.

I welcome each of our witnesses today and look forward to hearing their testimony. I am pleased at this time to yield to the gentleman from Texas, and also thank him again for inviting us to his

district to hear from witnesses he has helped us select, so we can

do a better job. Mr. Sessions, you are recognized.

[The prepared statement of Hon. John L. Mica follows:]

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6

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Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, thank you so much, and I would

like to ask unanimous consent for my statement to be inserted into

the record.

Mr. MICA. Without objection, so ordered.

Mr. SESSIONS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to publicly thank today not only you, as the chairman of this subcommittee, but also the gentleman from Indiana,

Mr. Souder, for your commitment, to the effective use of law enforcement resources in fighting drugs and the scourge of drugs on

America, our children, and the people who are engaged in the activities in our schools. Also, I would like to thank you for taking

time to come for your second time to West Mesquite High School.

As a former member of the Committee on Government Reform,

I became interested from the first day I set foot in Congress about

the drug problem that we have in our country. Both of you have

been tireless fighters in finding what the problem is and effective

resources to defeat this problem.

Today, we have before us a series of men and women who are

engaged, in the defense of our children and in law enforcement in

the battle against drugs. I have asked each of these people to be

here because I believe that they represent the very best, of not only

our cities and our schools, but also represent people who are not

weary. Not weary of fighting against drugs. And I would like to tell

them, Mr. Mayor and Mr. Assistant Police Chief, Mr. Special Agent

in Charge of the DEA here in Dallas and Mr. Constable, we are

not weary in Washington. We will continue to work with you. We

will work with you on effective programs and policies that will

make your job easier. We will work with you on stopping drugs, not

only at our border but also where they are manufactured, and the

making of those drugs, wherever they are around the world. And

I want you to know that the job that you do and the input that

we receive here, in fact, does matter.

From the hearing of 2 years ago, in 1997, it led to the most comprehensive updating of a law called the Drug Trafficking Life Imprisonment Act of 1997, where we worked specifically with the

methamphetamine problem. I will take the testimony that you give

today and your ideas, and combine with Chairman Mica and Congressman Souder on an effective, continuing drug effort in Washington, DC to make sure that what we do is listen to you, to utilize

the testimony and feedback that you give us, and make that effective, not only here in Dallas and Mesquite, TX, but all across this

country.

Mr. Chairman, I thank you for doing this, and I thank you for

your time and attention to the needs of Texas and the things which

we have to contribute to this war on drugs.

Mr. MICA. Thank you, Mr. Sessions. And I will recognize the gentleman from Indiana, Mr. Souder.

[The prepared statement of Hon. Pete Sessions follows:]

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Mr. SOUDER. I want to thank Congressman Sessions for inviting

us here, Congressman Mica for his leadership, not only as a Member of Congress, but both of us were Senate staffers, and he was

one of the original guys who put together much of the first rounds

of these drug wars. And then we seemed to back off for a while,

and bang, it is back again. We have to spend another 10 years trying to undo the damage that came.

We are also not just focusing on interdiction and law enforcement. Congressman Sessions has been a tireless crusader in all

these different areas. But we in the Education Committee have

been dealing with the drug-free schools question, the, let us just

say lack of consistent effectiveness in prevention programs. And we

are constantly looking at these type of things at the school level,

trying to figure out how to give schools more flexibility, how this

issue mixes with school violence.

We have had multiple hearings over in Education with the kids

and teachers from Columbine, from Rice Lake in Washington, from

Paducah, KY, from Springfield, OR—almost every area of the country where they have had the school violence, often which is very

closely tied to the drug issue, very closely tied to families, not just

broken families, but families who are not spending time with their

kids, and schools are just overwhelmed with a whole flood of these

kind of problems.

But what is our alternative? I mean, as Congressman Sessions

said, we cannot get tired. These problems have always been there,

they are rooted in deeply seated social problems. If we back off,

they just get worse. We cannot give up on school violence, we cannot give up on anti-drug efforts. We have to look at continually

evolving solutions. And law enforcement is a key part of that, because even drug courts, which are one of the most innovative ways

to work with young people and with adults who are abusing drugs,

require the enforcement component behind it.

Prevention programs, when you are talking to kids at school and

say, we want you to do the right thing, because you would not want

to wind up in jail the rest of your life. In other words, even when

we do the carrots, if you do not have an effective stick with it, the

carrots are not going to work.

So this is a good hearing today. I am very interested because it

has a diverse mix of the panel, of showing how these things interrelate in the community, and should be very helpful to us.

Mr. MICA. Thank you. Mr. Souder moves that the record be left

open for a period of 2 weeks.

Mr. SOUDER. So moved.

Mr. MICA. It is impossible at a congressional hearing to have everyone who would like to testify, testify, because of time constraints. So sometimes our panels represent a sampling, and other

individuals or organizations who would like to submit statements

for the record can contact Mr. Sessions or directly through the

Chair, and their statements will be made part of the record. So

without objection, the record will be left open for a period of 2

weeks.

Again, this is an investigations and oversights subcommittee of

the U.S. House of Representatives. We have this morning three

panels. I will introduce our first panel, and then I will swear each

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of our witnesses in, which is customary, given our responsibility

and charter.

The first panel today consists of the Honorable Mike Anderson

who is mayor of the city of Mesquite. The second witness is Gary

Westphal, and he is the assistant chief of police of the city of Mesquite. We also have the Acting Special Agent in Charge of the Drug

Enforcement Agency, Mr. Seib. The final witness is the Honorable

Mike Pappas, who is the Dallas County Constable.

If you all would please stand to be sworn.

[Witnesses sworn.]

Mr. MICA. Please be seated.

The record will reflect that the witnesses answered in the affirmative. We will now proceed with our first witness, and we are indeed delighted to be in Mesquite, Mr. Sessions’ district, and have

as our first witness today Mike Anderson, the mayor of Mesquite.

Welcome, sir, and you are recognized. I know you have a time

constraint this morning, if you want to make your opening statement and leave, what we will do is we will go through and ask

questions afterward. And we may submit to you any additional

questions. You are recognized, sir.

STATEMENTS OF MIKE ANDERSON, MAYOR, CITY OF MESQUITE, TX; GARY WESTPHAL, ASSISTANT CHIEF OF POLICE,

CITY OF MESQUITE, TX; FRANK SEIB, ACTING SPECIAL

AGENT IN CHARGE, DRUG ENFORCEMENT AGENCY; AND

MIKE PAPPAS, DALLAS COUNTY CONSTABLE

Mayor ANDERSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you,

Congressman Sessions for bringing this hearing to our community.

I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak today.

I would like to begin by telling you about Michael. At the age of

15, Michael was well on his way to becoming nothing more than

a statistic. He was a child growing up in a home with a drug-addicted father, and had already chosen a gang as his extended family. But gratefully, Michael was introduced to two programs created

to motivate youth in Mesquite. And for once in his life, Michael

was interacting with positive role models that seemed to actually

care about his future and offering him guidance and support.

By the time he was 17, Michael had not only left his gang, he

became a teen leader for the Mesquite Police Department and

spoke to younger teens about the dangers of drugs and gang involvement. He went on to graduate from high school and was hired

by a large successful company in Dallas.

But that is not the end of the story. While working at his new

job, Michael, along with his supervisors, began to notice computers,

printers and other office equipment disappearing from the company. Michael kept his eyes and ears open and he learned who was

committing the thefts. He turned the names of these individuals in

to his supervisor and when offered the known reward for the information, he refused.

Michael has gone from being a member in a gang committing illegal acts to a successfully employed member of our society that

helps prevent illegal acts.

As mayor, and more importantly as a citizen of Mesquite, I am

very proud of the programs our community has developed in the

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fight against drugs and the success we have achieved. Our current

approach to this fight began in 1989 when Mesquite began seeing

some disturbing trends developing with youth gang participation

and gang-related criminal activity. The numbers were not significant yet, but we knew where we could end up if we denied there

was a potential problem. And let me stress how absolutely essential it is for communities to look critically at themselves, and recognize and admit if drugs have become a problem in their community.

The city manager and superintendent of schools found themselves discussing Mesquite’s situation, and ultimately agreed that

what we had was not just a police problem or a school problem, but

ultimately agreed that what we had was a community problem.

Gangs and drugs are a community problem that exist everywhere.

That conversation set in motion the development of a community-based partnership known then as the Youth Services Steering

Committee that brought together the resources of the city, the

school district and the business and faith communities in our community to focus attention on the needs of Mesquite youth. Direction

given to the committee was to look for ways to address this and

other troubling trends involving our youth.

Interesting and fortunately, the committee saw the solution and

programs for all youth, not just the troubled youth. As a result, the

Youth Intervention and Education Project was developed, and this

project and its programs have had a significant effect on youth

gang activity in Mesquite. Given its success, we have realized the

Mesquite message for developing successful youth programs is to

consider proactive, not reactive, approaches to youth issues. By investing energies on the front end of the problem, we think drug use

can be prevented and many more lives saved.

At this time, I would like to introduce assistant chief of police,

Gary Westphal, who has been responsible for a lot of these programs since 1989, to speak to you in greater detail about Mesquite’s experience and youth intervention and education projects.

Gary.

Mr. MICA. Thank you, Mayor, and you are recognized, Mr.

Westphal.

[The prepared statement of Mayor Anderson follows:]

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Mr. WESTPHAL. Thank you for allowing me to come before you

today.

As the mayor mentioned, the Youth Services Steering Committee

was formed and eventually became the Youth Service Advisory

Committee. By brainstorming the specific problem at hand, one

proposal came from the youth members serving on the committee

that we feel confronts the problem and is effective in dealing with

youth crime in Mesquite. This innovative project consists of three

tiers. The project is called, as the mayor said, Youth Intervention

and Education Project.

By understanding of the way school-age youth perceive police,

this could allow the committee to devise a plan that would eliminate false fears and perceptions and cause a decline in gang offenses. Specific results of these meetings included the inception of

three programs to deal with cultural barriers, fear of violence, self

esteem, teamwork building and education. The three tiers to the

program include Slama-Bama-Jama, Evening with a Cop, and

Ropes Challenge Adventures Course.

Slama-Bama-Jama, at the top of the tier, is a high-profile event

developed in 1990 that conveys an anti-gang, anti-violence, antidrug, alcohol message to the students through drama by utilizing

cultural symbols such as music and athletics. An anti-gang violence

message is acted out in skits by officers and high school students.

The program is presented for youth at all city middle schools. Police officers and selected high school student actors use high-flying

basketball stunts, contemporary music, smoke and lights combined

with drama to get across their message of hope to the students in

attendance.

Evening with a Cop is the second tier of the Youth Intervention

Education Project. This program consists of evenings where a balance of selected at-risk students and student leaders are given

tours of the police department and then taken out at the city’s rustic day camp. Students are driven in the department’s mobile command unit for the evening meal, games and discussions around the

campfire at the day camp.

This particular tier of the program was designed to allow middle

school students the freedom to develop a camaraderie with police

officers, along with city and civic leaders of the community. One

highlight of this particular tier is the first-hand look at the police

work as the group follows calls dispatched to district patrol units.

Participating in this portion of the Youth Intervention and Education Program allows the students to experience a seeing real life

through the eyes of police officers. The police department has expanded this program, offering it both high school and middle school

students. We believe that both are age groups that can be effectively served through this program.

The third tier of the Youth Intervention and Education Project

is the Ropes Challenge Adventure Course, developed in 1992. Officers meet with selected students from area middle school and high

schools. The program usually begins on a Friday morning with students receiving a tour of the police department, which would include jail, communication, polygraph, internal investigation, patrol

and court. Students are then picked up in the police department’s

mobile command unit, and chauffeured, along with officers, city

15

and civic leaders, to the city-owned day camp site. Activities include basketball, volleyball and various games. Friday evening

meals are by an open campfire at the day camp where the group

can tell stories, sing songs and interact through topical discussions

on any subject in a neutral, relaxed setting.

A presentation is also given by a motivational speaker on various

topics including anti-gang, anti-drug and sexual responsibility information. Often the mayor and city council members will participate with the youth to show their support to them and the program. You might see them pitching a tent, playing volleyball,

throwing Frisbee, singing, dancing or just being involved in a oneon-one conversation with a student.

On Saturday, the real fun begins when the students, officers and

guests participate together in the ropes courses. The courses by

name are the zip line, pamper pole and the wall, which physically

and mentally challenge all participants. These courses are non-discriminatory in nature and designed to promote safety, teamwork,

self esteem and build a camaraderie between students and officers.

The reputation of the Mesquite Police Department has been enhanced immeasurably. Citizens, educators, business people, media

representatives and others have all been exposed through these

programs to professional police officers who are highly motivated,

highly skilled, highly qualified and highly committed to the community and to the youth, the young people in our community. That

obvious level of commitment, skill and dedication pays dividends in

the many contacts between the police department and the public.

The public is tremendously supportive of the agency, and the agency, in turn, is more service oriented. The synergy developed by that

process is very effective in terms of the success of the police mission.

The Youth Intervention Project has been seen as a catalyst to the

decline in youth gang and drug activity in Mesquite for the past

7 years, as well as for the decrease in total crime experience of the

city since the inception of this project. It can also be seen as the

catalyst to the city’s true commitment to community policing. With

the success of this program came expanded programs designed to

further buildupon the foundation formed by the coalition provided

by the city, school, clergy and police officials willing to abandon territorial jurisdictions and work for the common good of this community.

Thank you.

Mr. MICA. Thank you for your testimony. And I would like to

now recognize Frank Seib. He is the Acting Special Agent in

Charge of the DEA office here. You are recognized.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Westphal follows:]

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Mr. SEIB. Good morning, Chairman Mica, and distinguished

members of the subcommittee. I am pleased to have the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss an issue so significant

and essential to our Nation. Effective drug prevention programs

and education in our school systems and communities is a vital

component of the Drug Enforcement Administration’s overall mission.

Mr. MICA. I am not sure if they can hear you. Maybe we should

move the mic. Thank you.

Mr. SEIB. Would you like me to start over, sir?

Mr. MICA. No, go right ahead. I think we caught you so far. I

wanted to make sure that everyone who is attending can hear, too.

Mr. SEIB. Effective drug prevention programs and education in

our school systems and communities is a vital component of the

Drug Enforcement Administration’s overall mission. I would like

also to express my appreciation to the subcommittee’s continued

support of DEA in its global anti-drug efforts.

As you know, DEA is the only single-mission Federal agency

dedicated to drug law enforcement. As such, the agency has developed the ability to efficiently direct resources and manpower to

identify, target and dismantle drug trafficking organizations

throughout the United States and abroad. These drug trafficking

organizations are responsible for the proliferation of drugs, as well

as significant levels of drug-related crime in our Nation’s communities.

The Dallas metropolitan area, like many other metropolitan

areas across the Nation, continues to experience increasing drug

trafficking activity and incidents of drug abuse. Of particular concern is the alarming increase in the number of youth involved in

drug abuse, and consequently emergency room and/or rehabilitative

treatment. Adolescents in the Dallas area are experimenting with

and abusing a wide variety of drugs. In particular, the increasing

use of drugs such as Ecstasy and methamphetamine by our youth

is quickly becoming one of most significant law enforcement and social issues facing our Nation today.

Recent enforcement activities conducted by personnel from the

Dallas field division demonstrate a rising popularity of club drugs,

such as MDMA, GHB, Ketamine and LSD among young adults. For

your information, we have provided the subcommittee with a report

entitled, ‘‘Club Drugs in the Dallas Field Division.’’

Today, young adults are using these drugs individually and in

combination at all-night raves and night clubs in Dallas and surrounding areas. These rave functions, which are parties known for

loud techno music and dancing in underground locations regularly

host several thousand teenagers and young adults who use MDMA,

LSD, GHB, Ketamine and methamphetamine.

In addition to the increase in club drug abuse in the Dallas area,

heroin abuse is also the focus of national attention in north Texas.

As many of you recall, Plano, TX, a city located immediately north

of Dallas, reported 14 heroin-related deaths involving teens and

young adults in 1996 and 1997. Shortly after the heroin overdoses

in Plano received widespread attention, it became apparent to law

enforcement officials that northeast Tarrant County, which is just

above Fort Worth, faced a serious heroin overdose problem as well.

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From August 1996 to August 1999, 53 heroin overdoses occurred in

northeast Tarrant County, 25 of the 53 resulted in death.

DEA in the Dallas Field Division recognizes that the nationwide

anti-drug effort requires a multi-faceted approach. Direct drug law

enforcement is a major component of this strategy, however involvement in demand reduction and community-based programs is

equally important. Demand reduction and community-based programs focus specifically on local youth and are designed to drive a

wedge between these young individuals and a future of drug abuse

and drug-related crime. In addition to these programs, the Dallas

Field Division initiates intelligence-sharing conferences.

Given the nature of today’s hearing, I would like to briefly discuss some of the demand reduction and community-based programs

instituted by the Dallas Field Division. Since 1987, DEA has devoted one special agent from each field division to demand reduction program. Demand reduction program has several national priorities, which include prevention efforts in the areas of public

awareness, community coalitions, drug-free business initiatives,

supporting drug abuse resistance education, DARE, and related

education programs, and re-engineering of national parents movement.

Among many other activities, Dallas Field Division personnel

train DARE officers and school resource officers.

Recently the Dallas Field Division received the National League

of United Latin American Citizens Award for participation in Target Kids in Court Program. This program is designed to assist children in the court system by reducing red tape in the adoption process, and to end agency turf battles that leave neglected children in

limbo. The Special Agent in Charge of the Dallas Field Division

serves as a member of the steering committee in the Target Kids

in Court.

The second program is the Starfish Foundation which is a nonprofit corporation founded in Plano to fight the teenage heroin addiction problem plaguing the city. The Dallas Field Division serves

as a consultant to the Starfish Foundation, sharing its expertise on

the local drug problem.

Furthermore, we regularly attend events by Nuestra Vida, an organization with the purpose of increasing opportunities for parental

involvement in the lives of their children at school and home. The

Nuestra Vida Committee holds several fairs and town meetings

during the year.

In conclusion, it is quite evident that the increasing power and

diversity of drug trafficking organizations operating throughout the

United States and abroad demands an equally authoritative and

creative response. These drug trafficking organizations seek to entrench criminal enterprise in modern society. They attempt to lure

the youth of this country into the dark world of drug abuse and

crime on a daily basis. The DEA and the Dallas Field Division are

committed to developing and employing multi-faceted strategies to

combat drug trafficking and drug abuse. The Dallas Field Division

will vigorously investigate and aid in the prosecution of drug traffickers operating in the Dallas area. As always, demand reduction

and community involvement will remain a high priority in the Dallas Field Division’s anti-drug strategy. In many cases, these proVerDate 11-MAY-2000 10:35 May 31, 2001 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00026 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\71691.TXT HGOVREF1 PsN: HGOVREF1
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grams offer drug education, drug prevention information to vulnerable youth.

It is also important to note that we strive to enhance relationships between local youth and law enforcement personnel. These

programs can and unquestionably do make a difference.

Once again, Mr. Chairman, thank you for inviting me to appear

before the subcommittee. I look forward to any questions that you

may have.

Mr. MICA. Thank you. Now we will hear from Mike Pappas, who

is the Dallas County Constable. We will have questions after his

testimony.

You are recognized, sir.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Seib follows:]

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Mr. PAPPAS. Thank you, Chairman Mica, Mr. Souder, welcome to

Texas. Glad to have you here. Again, thank you for the opportunity

to give this statement.

Mr. MICA. You might want to move the mic. Go right ahead.

Mr. PAPPAS. Again, welcome to Texas, and thank you for this opportunity to say a few words.

We see the results of alcohol and drug abuse and the way it affects each and every one of us every day, whether as a parent, a

relative, a neighbor or in law enforcement. The effects can be seen

in higher insurance rates, higher prices at the grocery store or merchandise department stores. You probably even see it affect our

taxes. Drug and alcohol abuse is a problem that faces each and

every one of us every morning we wake up. I do not care whether

you are from the family of a doctor, an attorney, teacher, plumber,

fast-food server, police officer or any other profession. No one is immune, regardless of their position or financial status in the community.

Each and every one of us has choices to make, good or bad, and

it is the choice that you make that affects the people who are

around you. We need to start helping our youth make the right

choices at a younger age now, because they are experiencing drugs

and alcohol at a younger age than when we were growing up. We

have to help them see that the choices they make, good or bad,

have responsibility and consequences. They will be held accountable for their choices.

I had a younger brother who made some good choices in life, but

also some very serious, bad choices. I come from a middle class

family, went to a Catholic school and have loving and caring parents, relatives and neighbors. Somewhere along the way, my brother, who was brought up in the same environment, made the decision to try alcohol and probably marijuana. He was fairly popular

in school and made good grades. Whether it was peer pressure or

other outside influences, that affected his decision to try alcohol

and drugs. I do not know. But it cost him his life.

Drugs and alcohol enhances a teenager’s perception that they are

immortal and invincible, that nothing bad will ever happen to them

because they are young. Mark found out the hard way that this

just is not true.

Waiting to teach the younger generation to make the right

choices in junior high and high school is way too late. Kids are introduced at a younger and younger age to situations that require

difficult choices. They are not any more mature than we were at

that age, but with today’s technology, they see and experience more

adult situations a lot more.

When I took office in January 1993, we put a program in place

called Together Against Drug Abuse. This program is underwritten

by private business owners and now sponsored by the Texas Masons. A uniformed law enforcement officer presents a class once

every 2 weeks throughout the school year to the fifth grade classes

in elementary schools. The program was in three schools in 1993

and has since grown to 32 schools, presented to over 3,400 students

per year. This program helps teach the youth to make the right

choices and how to deal with peer pressure that they face this day

and time. Our motto is, ‘‘I am special,’’ and we reinforce, God does

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not make a nobody. Teaching children to have self esteem and the

pride in making right choices gives us all a brighter future. I truly

believe this program works.

Also as a victim, I have personally experienced the results of

teenagers using drugs and alcohol. I woke up one morning and

walked outside to pick up my newspaper and saw a neighborhood

that had been damaged by four individuals high on

methamphetamines. Cars were spray painted, tires were slashed,

acid was poured on the vehicles, houses had been egged, the church

had been spray-painted in graffiti and burned. We soon found out

that we were victimized by some of our own neighborhood teenagers who had been abusing drugs and alcohol for some time. The

results of their choices were two did time in Federal prison, one in

State prison and the youngest spent a year in the juvenile justice

system. And we cannot get the hundreds of thousands of dollars of

damage sustained in the neighborhood.

My experience in my family life, my profession as law enforcement officer and my involvement in the community, those who

choose to abuse drugs and alcohol pay the biggest price, but we all

carry the burden of their choices.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Pappas follows:]

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Mr. MICA. Thank you for your testimony, and I thank each of our

witnesses for their testimony.

I will start with a few questions if I may, and I will yield to other

members.

First of all, to the Assistant Police Chief, how are you financing

some of these prevention programs that you described? Is this

strictly with local and State funds or are there any Federal funds

involved?

Mr. WESTPHAL. No, sir. The Youth Services committee became a

non-profit organization, and accepts donations through the local

civic groups. And then of course, their salaries.

Mr. MICA. Are taxpayer dollars going into it, too?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. The salaries of the police officers, yes.

Mr. MICA. Is that local city or State funds?

Mr. WESTPHAL. That would be city funding.

Mr. MICA. You may have to pass this mic around, sir.

Mr. WESTPHAL. That, of course, would be city funding on the salaries of the police officers.

Mr. SOUDER. But only salaries? That is the only funding?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. MICA. Are there any Federal funds coming in to these

projects that you are aware of?

Mr. WESTPHAL. No, sir.

Mr. MICA. Would it be beneficial, if we could do it without too

many strings attached, to make funds available for these?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Oh, yes.

Mr. MICA. It would?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SOUDER. Did you ask about community block grant with

that? You do not think there is any community block grant money?

Mr. MICA. The question from Mr. Souder was, do you think there

is any community block grant money that has gone to the State or

came from State to local?

Mr. WESTPHAL. It just so happens that this year, the SlamaBama-Jama program requires a considerable amount of equipment,

at an unusual cost. And this year, the block grant money has been

used to replace a lot of the equipment because this program has

been in session for about 10 years.

Mr. MICA. So there could be Federal money through that program?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Yes, sir, just in this instance, yes.

Mr. MICA. Or in that program.

One of the problems we have at the Federal level is we try to

make funds available, but we are now trying to do that through the

State and then get as much discretion. We find that creating these

Federal programs, you create Federal bureaucracies and regional

bureaucracies, etc., that end up skimming some of the overhead

and complicating or bureaucratizing the process.

I heard the DARE program mentioned. Do you think the DARE

program is successful?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Well, in Mesquite, we have a similar program

called LETS, Law Enforcement Teaching in Schools, and it parallels DARE. It began with Federal money and has continued on.

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Mr. MICA. Now privately funded?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Yes, sir. Well, the salaries of the officers are

funded through the city.

Mr. MICA. Let me ask you another question. We funded a $1 billion new program on drug education and primarily focusing on

media buys. But it is a pretty extensive program. It is a combination of Federal funding and to the tune of $1 billion over 3 years,

plus a requirement that there be an equal match from the private

sector, either in donations. Some of that you may have seen on television in ads and things. Can you give us your candid assessment

of that program to date?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Well, I guess I am not as aware of that as I

should be.

Mr. MICA. Well, that is a very candid assessment, because it is

designed to make people aware, so it is obviously not gotten the job

accomplished.

And we are looking very critically at that. It is run now by the

Office of Drug Control Policy, but a substantial amount of taxpayer

dollars, plus donated services.

A question now, if I may, for our DEA representative. You talk

about Ecstasy and meth in this area. Could you describe the extent

of the problem? And the whole Dallas or Texas area that you may

have some knowledge of.

Mr. SEIB. Mr. Chairman, the resident DEA’s investigation on

methamphetamine and the rave drugs, per se, methamphetamine

for one, looking at our stats in 1997, we may have done 40 or 50

labs at the most in Oklahoma. Now be advised that DEA Dallas

does handle all of north Texas and the State of Oklahoma. In Oklahoma alone this year, we will most likely do in excess of 300 methamphetamine labs. That is where DEA participates in the seizure.

You can almost double that when you look at the State and local

lab seizures. So there will be close to 1,000 labs.

Mr. MICA. So a dramatic five-times—— Mr. SEIB. That is a dramatic increase. There may have been 50.

Mr. MICA. Well, one of the things that we find with the meth

being domestically produced, and it does take precursors, I might

ask, where are you seeing the precursors come in this area, just for

the record?

Mr. SEIB. You know, Mr. Chairman, I am not exactly certain

where the chemicals are coming from. We know they are coming

in from Mexico and Europe, arriving into the Dallas area. We do

have a diversion program here in Dallas where we monitor chemicals and chemical companies.

Mr. MICA. You did say that DEA is now trying to work with

some of these prevention and education programs, is that correct?

Mr. SEIB. Yes. We have several. I mentioned a few in my presentation. We are also working with a local operation, it is called

ALOUD, it is Alliance on Underage Drinking. I sit on the steering

committee of the ALOUD committee. We also participate in the Explorer Program, a law enforcement explorer, where we work with

the 15, 16-year-old Explorers in law enforcement related activities,

drug identification, areas like that.

We activated another program not long ago, primarily initially,

it was directed at the Hispanic community. It was known as OperVerDate 11-MAY-2000 10:35 May 31, 2001 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00044 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\71691.TXT HGOVREF1 PsN: HGOVREF1
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ation RESCATE. It is an 800 line where they can call in and provide information, anonymous phone calls. To date, we have had

over 1,000 phone calls. I am looking at now expanding Operation

RESCATE into the black and a overall 800 line where anyone can

call in. Before, we had numbers from other communities and very

little from the Hispanics, so we went with Operation RESCATE

which translates to operation rescue.

Mr. MICA. Is the local office making a concerted effort to deal

with the media, and also the schools, to convey the danger and the

problem that we are facing, particularly with Ecstasy and

methamphetamines?

Mr. SEIB. Yes, sir, we are.

Mr. MICA. Could you describe them?

Mr. SEIB. One program is a red ribbon campaign. I think last

year we reached out to approximately 10,000 students within the

metroplex. We go out to the schools, it is during October. We explain the dangers of drugs, importance of staying away from drugs.

We work, again, with the DARE program, we have officers assigned to—agents assigned to our demand reduction program. And

right now it seems to be working very well.

Mr. MICA. Constable Pappas, you described a tremendous toll

that narcotics and alcohol abuse took on your family, I guess, with

the loss of your brother, and described even the impact on your

neighborhood. And you deal at the local level, and unfortunately

what you described is all too common today. This epidemic is

reaching every element of our society, not only of the minorities or

the inner cities, but suburban. I conducted a hearing a little over

a year ago when I took over this chairmanship in one of my prosperous communities, and I think we had two city council members,

and one city of Lake Mary council member from that jurisdiction

told us how his son, I believe it was, had robbed and committed

felonies and everything for illegal narcotics. And the other one told

how he took the kids to church and everything and still lost them

to narcotics.

From your local law enforcement and your personal experience,

and if you were in our position at the Federal level, what are your

recommendations as far as education, prevention, what can we better do with Federal resources and dollars to get a handle on this

situation? Maybe you could elucidate?

Mr. PAPPAS. I would probably offer more programs to get parents

involved, and to get the business leaders in the communities involved, too.

Mr. MICA. Well, the problem we have with that, Mr. Pappas, is

every time we start a program, we create an incredible bureaucracy

in oversight. We are trying to get away from creating the programs

and letting us be sort of a partner and get the funds to States and

the local communities, and then let them make the decision. Is that

an improper approach?

Mr. PAPPAS. No, what you said is correct. I agree with that. And

that is one of the things we are doing now in this Together Against

Drug Abuse program that we have in our office. It is now statewide, thanks to the Masons, but that is a program that does not

accept any kind of Federal funds or State funds at all to operate.

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Mr. MICA. Well then, the other thing we find is, most of the programs that are most effective are either community or faith based.

Maybe it was the mayor mentioned some of the interaction with

faith-based organizations, but once you get Federal funding involved, we have people screaming from the rafters that we cannot

cooperate, contribute or participate with those organizations.

What is your opinion and recommendation, again, as to how we

proceed?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, one way to proceed maybe would be to contact

the different agencies in a particular community and just see what

different programs they have, and see how you can maybe combine

those programs and maybe give them the support they need.

Mr. MICA. Would you support the use of Federal funds to some

of these faith-based organizations, or money going through local

communities in the form of block grants and then allowing them

to participate, or not?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes, I would.

Mr. MICA. Thank you. I yield to Mr. Sessions.

Mr. SESSIONS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I apologize for my absence for a minute. We had two Hispanic TV stations that were intensely interested in what is going on today, and they asked the

question, which is being asked here, how do we go about getting

parents involved. And that is the essence of some of what Chairman Mica is alluding to.

I have found that the power model that Mesquite is using is very

important, where it involves the business community, schools, law

enforcement, and then, evidently, Mr. Westphal, junior high age

children, is that correct?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SESSIONS. Is there a mandatory element to this or is it all

people who would be asked and it was by just acceptance?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Well, of course, anyone can participate in any

facet of the community. And I think, in terms of what Congressman Mica was talking about, on the funding and each community,

and how to set up the programming is, what we found through the

suburbs in Dallas is that each community is very, very different,

and we have to set them up—the programs have to be set up to

accommodate that community. Some of our programs may or may

not work in another community, and actually may work very, very

well in some communities.

So I do not know if that answered your question, Congressman.

Mr. SESSIONS. I think it did. In other words, you think that what

you did works well in Mesquite, TX, but it may not work somewhere else as easily?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Or possibly could work better, but may not work

in a community that does not accept it well or does not want to

participate.

Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Seib, if you could tell us, in your opinion—and

I am sorry that I missed your testimony for a minute—we are talking primarily about schools today and communities, but with an

emphasis on schools. Local law enforcement problem, DEA problem? Should the DEA be more involved in our schools?

Mr. SEIB. Yes, we should. We should be more involved. We are

involved now, but the way we get more involved is through a coopVerDate 11-MAY-2000 10:35 May 31, 2001 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00046 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\71691.TXT HGOVREF1 PsN: HGOVREF1
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erative effort with State and local agencies. We work with police

departments, we work with the sheriffs departments, and we go

into the schools, like I said earlier, on the DARE programs, the Red

Ribbon program, the Explorer program. We have different ways to

go in.

With additional funding, personnel, we could do more. But right

now, there is a certain part of our budget that goes toward demand

reduction. It is divided between the 20 field divisions, and I think

we are making inroads to the children, to the schools. But with additional funding and manpower, more could be done. But to do it

better, we go out to the State and local agencies.

Mr. SESSIONS. Do you have contact with, let us say for instance,

a school district who would contact you or do you refer them to

their sheriff’s department or local police, or do you receive questions from and information from local law enforcements to where

then you work with them, or do you view them as being the primary contact, and only if information leads you to the schools, or

is it your mainstream and you know that is where a lot of the problems are and you are working directly? Is it a daily interaction or

is it an as-needed interaction that you have with the schools?

Mr. SEIB. It is more of an as-needed. We are usually contacted

by the schools, and any time we are called, we go out and we put

on either a DARE presentation or some kind of drug awareness

program. I think our budget in Dallas calls for, I think it is right

at $50,000 to be used in demand reduction and for our actual

DARE and Red Ribbon program. But we do work with the State

and local agencies. For example, if we go into Flower Mound, to go

to Flower Mound schools, we will contact Flower Mound Police Department and say, we are going to a school, do you want to participate? And quite often, they do the same. They will call us and say,

we are having a particular function, does DEA want to participate?

And when we can, personnel-wise, we do.

Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Westphal, are you active in MISD, with MISD

in the schools?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SESSIONS. Do you do it through your officers who are on campus? Do you utilize them or do you actually know when you have

got a problem and you will go in and actively work in the schools?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Well, I do not participate on an individual basis,

but we have 14 officers assigned in Mesquite Independent School

District, and they address any number of problems at the LETS

level, fifth grade, and also LETS revisited at the seventh grade,

and also the school resource officers at the middle school and high

school level.

Mr. SESSIONS. Constable Pappas, when you have been in contact—and I know it is mostly in the city of Dallas area, although

you work for the county, what do you find is the feedback from parents when you try and work with parents on what perhaps might

be a first offense or beginning of a problem? What is the general

feedback that parents provide you? Do they care? Are they interested? Do they appreciate what you are doing?

Mr. PAPPAS. The parents are usually fairly supportive of what we

are doing out there. But you know, like I said earlier, or like was

said earlier, drugs in my area are readily available because it is a

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higher-income area and they can afford the drugs. But we get a lot

of support from the parents in the programs that we are doing out

there, and they are usually fairly supportive.

Mr. SESSIONS. Do you think parents recognize how to spot problems, or when you come to them, that they recognize that it is not

a slap on the wrist, but perhaps could lead to a lifetime on drugs

or perhaps incarceration or their death?

Mr. PAPPAS. I think a lot of parents do recognize a problem, but

I think sometimes those parents tend to ignore that problem also.

Mr. SESSIONS. And let law enforcement pick it up first?

Mr. PAPPAS. Either that or that it will go away.

Mr. SESSIONS. They think it will go away?

Mr. PAPPAS. They think it will go away.

Mr. SESSIONS. How effective do you believe the schools are in

spotting the problems and then doing something about it?

Mr. PAPPAS. I think the schools are fairly effective at spotting the

problems and able to deal with it with their police departments.

Mr. SESSIONS. So from a local perspective, you would say you

hear from the schools, you work well together, and you believe that

they spot problems, or you do, too, because you have a working cooperation with your officers in our schools, and that they do not

blow something off, that they do something about it?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. SESSIONS. OK. Thank you, Chairman.

Mr. MICA. Thank you, Mr. Sessions. Now yield to the gentleman

from Indiana, Mr. Souder.

Mr. SOUDER. I like Mr. Pappas’ statement, clearly used to testifying in front of our committee. I mean, you have joined distinguished people like Attorney General Reno and Craig Livingstone,

all who also took the oath as we did our investigation. I like usually fairly supportive, which means that sometimes they are not because they are in denial and so on.

Just for the record, because particularly after Mr. Westphal’s

comments that each place is a little bit different so that those who

read this testimony later, and including me can understand, is a

constable like a sheriff?

Mr. PAPPAS. Very similar. The only difference between the constable and the sheriff is, we do not manage the jail. We put them

in jail, we do not manage the jail.

Mr. SOUDER. All right. Dallas County, I saw a reference in your

program guide that it includes Irving and Garland School Districts?

Mr. PAPPAS. They are not in our precinct, but we do have schools

in those particular school districts. My area covers primarily Dallas, primarily downtown, north of the tollway to LBJ, LBJ east to

the Garland, Mesquite city limits and then south and back to town.

Mr. SOUDER. And to describe the areas that we are mostly dealing with here, partly Mesquite, it would be middle, upper-middle

more, or is there a mix?

Mr. PAPPAS. It would be a big mix.

Mr. SOUDER. What percent Hispanic and minority?

Mr. PAPPAS. I would say probably 20 percent Hispanic. You are

talking about racial-wise, correct?

Mr. SOUDER. Right. Racial and——

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Mr. PAPPAS. I would say probably 20 percent Hispanic, maybe

that much African-American and the rest is Caucasian.

Mr. SOUDER. So it is a pretty diverse mix in this area?

Mr. PAPPAS. It really is, yes.

Mr. SOUDER. And that would be even more true if you moved toward the center part of the area you described in your precinct?

Mr. PAPPAS. No. As you get close to the center of it, or the north

of it, northeast of it and northwest of it, you have Highland Park,

you have Lake Highlands, you have North Dallas, and you have

predominantly Caucasian area with upper income.

Mr. SOUDER. Even inside the city?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. SOUDER. So it is not like a typical, maybe like the north side

of Chicago, it is not like a typical urban area although you are

starting to see this pattern with different suburbs, but it is helpful.

As someone who strongly believes that, without kids changing

their self esteem, without understanding that they are loved and

how they are created, I believe that is fundamental because drug

abuse is not what starts the problem, it is something else and then

they go to an artificial substance. But you said in here, we reinforce, God does not make a nobody. Is that part of the program?

Mr. PAPPAS. It is not really a religious program. It is just that

that is the only thing we really mention about God in the whole

program, is that God does not make a nobody. The program is primarily geared toward just making the correct choices in life, and

dealing with peer pressure. Like I said, there is no religion tone

really to it, except for that one statement.

Mr. SOUDER. That is a wonderful statement, I did not mean to

discourage you with it.

Mr. PAPPAS. You are not discouraging me, I just wanted you to

know that.

Mr. SOUDER. I wanted to pursue some particular questions with

Mr. Westphal, some technical things. You said you had 14 officers

in the schools?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SOUDER. Out of how many total officers do you have?

Mr. WESTPHAL. 202.

Mr. SOUDER. And you made a reference, and the mayor did also,

that there has been, particularly in Mesquite, you were worried

about the trend line, you plunged in and there has been a drop in

crime?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SOUDER. Has there been a drop in gangs?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SOUDER. How do you measure that? Number of estimated

members?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Well, there are 31,336 students in the Mesquite

school district. Less than one-half of 1 percent of those are actually

the kids that we have to target.

Comparatively speaking, our numbers, compared to some of our

other suburban cities in the metroplex are tremendously down in

terms of gangs and gang members.

Mr. SOUDER. Arrests?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Sir?

46

Mr. SOUDER. By arrests, is that what you mean?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Well, by the actual members of gangs, by the actual number of gangs, and by the actual offenses committed by

gangs.

Mr. SOUDER. And then have you also seen a drop in drug crime?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Well, that is a very difficult question. People ask

us that at our crime watch meetings, they ask us at PTA meetings,

and to just tell you the truth, I do not know how to comment to

it, because just as sure as I think that we are getting a handle on

it, or at least getting into the middle of it, something will surface,

something else will happen, and then there will be a dozen kids involved in some type of drug, the drugs that Mr. Seib described, or

something new that they concoct.

Mr. SOUDER. But you have not—one of the things in saying that

there has been a drop in crime, has there been a—given that there

are bumps, have you seen homicides dropped, dealing dropped, in

a general trend line?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Yes, sir, that has dropped. As Mr. Seib mentioned about Plano, is that in Mesquite we have not had the heroin

problem that some of the other cities have experienced. But that

does not mean it is not there. We have indications that it is there,

but the overdose and the deaths have not plagued us, yet.

Mr. SOUDER. In this period, since you have started these programs, have you had any change in demographics or has the population mix stayed roughly the same, income mix roughly the same?

Mr. WESTPHAL. It is almost exactly the same. Mesquite has no

predominantly black or Hispanic or white areas. It is a well-described mixture of people.

Mr. SOUDER. In the specifics of the Slama-Bama-Jama, you said

that after review in 1992, you added a casket, and you used the

words, involving students’ suggestions. Did the idea for the casket

come from the students themselves?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Well, one of the things we felt like we should do

early, we did not. In the very beginning we just did what we

thought was right. And then not too long, probably around 1991,

we got kiddos involved. And one of the things that they said that

they wanted, after you got past the beer in the locker rooms and

shorter school days, that kind of thing, they wanted to feel safe.

They wanted to feel safe. They wanted to feel safe at home, they

wanted to feel safe at school and they wanted to be comfortable

around police officers.

So one of the things that the kids said is, we need to do something to get the other kids’ attention. And so we have a friend at

Anderson-Clayton Funeral Home, and after speaking with him, he

offered to give us a casket. So we have a funeral march, and then

we have kid, a high school student that is always a role model student, that pops out of this casket, portraying himself as a ghost in

front of all the other kids. And it is pretty dramatic. And it has had

a lot of impact.

Like I said, in terms of the school district, we only deal with

about 150 or 160 kids on average, on a yearly basis, and so we really feel good about that.

Mr. SOUDER. In 1995, you added a jail?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Yes, sir.

47

Mr. SOUDER. A similar process?

Mr. WESTPHAL. Yes, sir. Our officers put a jail together with PVC

pipe, painted it black, and entered it into the program as actually

showing the students—we have student participants and the officers, showing them locked up in a jail. And then the officers and

the students give a testimony as to, I would not be here if it was

not for drugs and gangs. And that is just an added version.

Mr. SOUDER. In your student groups, have you seen any different

reactions from kids from middle, upper-class families versus your

other groups at risk? In other words, those kids get involved in

drugs in substantially different ways.

Mr. WESTPHAL. Not really. You know, a comment about, I think

Congressman Sessions mentioned about the parental involvement.

It is usually either/or. Either they are very, very supportive, or

they are very much in denial, or they do not want to be involved

at all. And usually you find that those parents are involved in

drugs themselves.

And so the balance there with the kids, it does not really have

a whole lot to do with the economic lines, as far as participation

or as far as receptive to the program. At least, that is my opinion.

Mr. SOUDER. We had a hearing in Phoenix where we actually

had a young person say that the parent of a friend was laying out

the lines of cocaine on the table when she and her friends came

over to their house after school—talk about parental involvement,

that is not what we need.

Mr. WESTPHAL. Yes, sir. Excuse me, but I could give you a very

real example. This school you are sitting in now, at its inception,

had a lot of problems. And it has become a model school. I cannot

say enough good about this high school, because in recent years—

well, in early years, back in the late 1980’s, there was a shooting

on the parking lot, a drive-by shooting. But this school has become

a model school as a result of a lot of things. But the partnerships

that are involved with the school district and ourselves with the

city, and clergy, and also just civic groups.

Mr. SOUDER. One more question from Mr. Seib. You said that, in

addition to Plano, that northeast Tarrant County was hit by the

heroin, and had like 15 deaths as opposed to 12?

Mr. SEIB. Yes. Tarrant County had, I think it was 53 incidents

of heroin overdose.

Mr. SOUDER. Twenty-five deaths?

Mr. SEIB. And I think it was 25—23 or 25 of them resulted in

deaths.

We have a new program that goes on, it is really an anonymous

program, we are working with the hospitals. We can identify the

heroin overdoses. Now we have a data base that we are trying to

get all of the community hospitals to get just—no name, just the

information, tell us, so we can see how big of a problem we actually

have.

Mr. SOUDER. Could you explain—I mean, you look at this whole

Dallas metro area, and you have Fort Worth and Dallas and all the

suburbs, you have got Plano over here, you have got northeast

Tarrant over here. Why would you have 25 deaths here, and 14

here? What is the dynamic that does not spread this evenly? Is it

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a particular dealer, because Plano and northeast Tarrant are very

close to each other.

Mr. SEIB. They are close to each other, yes.

Mr. SOUDER. Was there a dealer or a gang?

Mr. SEIB. It was a gang, it was a group of dealers. At that time,

it was Hispanic dealers. And it was all from middle to upper-class

kids. They were 14, 15 years old.

Mr. SOUDER. So the variables, you would say first off there needed to be money?

Mr. SEIB. Yes.

Mr. SOUDER. There are other areas of money around Dallas, too,

where they had kids?

Mr. SEIB. Not to that level. That is what we are trying to find

by working with the hospitals, to see exactly where we are before

we have the deaths coming in, where we have—we do not know

how many people are going to the emergency rooms and being

treated for heroin overdoses.

Mr. SOUDER. Why would you—you have a statistic in here that

says the marijuana increased into the local hospitals by 70 percent

or whatever. Why would you not have that for heroin?

Mr. SEIB. Right. But they were not reporting heroin overdoses.

Mr. SOUDER. Why would you not report heroin overdoses?

Mr. SEIB. I do not know that. At this time, I do not, but I will

get you an answer.

Mr. SOUDER. I learned in my home area they did not have a test

for LSD and accidents that they were reporting was just kind of

random accidents. It turned out some of these kids were on LSD.

But that is an odd thing to not catch.

Mr. SEIB. I will get you an answer.

Mr. SOUDER. So dollars, distribution through a certain—it is interesting because I saw a similar thing down in Orlando, why

epidemics like this will hit a certain area so hard, and not even be

hardly visible elsewhere.

Mr. SEIB. We do not have an answer.

Mr. SOUDER. We have heroin deaths and other——

Mr. SEIB. No significant numbers that we are aware of.

Mr. SOUDER. What about the——

Mr. SEIB. And again, these are the ones that are coming—these

are coming out to the forefront. We do not know that it is some

deaths from another area where we have not identified them as

heroin deaths yet.

Mr. SOUDER. So it could be there.

Mr. SEIB. They could be there, but we are not seeing the numbers, like in Plano. And again, it was the parents coming out in

Plano and saying, we have this problem. We are asked sometimes

down in downtown Dallas, why are we not doing the same thing

in Dallas that we are doing in Plano? Because the citizens did not

make us aware in Dallas the way they did in Plano.

Mr. SOUDER. Are the purity levels higher in this area than they

are in other parts?

Mr. SEIB. Yes, they are. We are seeing heroin sometimes as high

as 80 percent.

Mr. SOUDER. Is that varying by parts of your jurisdiction?

49

Mr. SEIB. Yes, it is. But in the area, we have seen heroin as high

as 80, and I remember working heroin in El Paso in the early

1980’s to mid-1980’s, we were having usable heroin was 2 or 3 percent. So kids are buying, they do not know what they are getting,

and they are getting 80 percent.

Mr. SOUDER. And obviously that is because they water it down

for price reasons?

Mr. SEIB. Right.

Mr. SOUDER. So in effect, higher income areas are more vulnerable to more potent things because their kids have the money to

buy the more potent heroin?

Mr. SEIB. Yes.

Mr. SOUDER. Interesting.

Mr. SEIB. We had the same problem with the Dallas Cowboy that

died last year around Plano. Same type of thing, the heroin

overdoses. They do not know the percentage or the purity of the

heroin that they are buying.

Mr. SOUDER. That would be a warning to many middle and

upper-class families, where they have the two-parent families,

where they think they are immune. And yet actually, their kids

may be at more life/death risk, not necessarily success risk and

other health risks, but because it is high-income areas that we are

seeing the worst death rates.

Mr. SEIB. Right. And one of the breaks—— Mr. SOUDER. Not the shooting related with it, but the actual

overdose.

Mr. SEIB. One of the breaks in the Plano investigation, I think

one of the guys that was distributing the heroin made a statement

to someone and said, look what my heroin is doing in Plano, it is

so good.

Mr. SOUDER. Let me ask you one other thing, the gangs that you

saw that brought that into Plano and northeast Tarrant, were they

living in that area or were they gangs that came in from the outside?

Mr. SEIB. Some were living in the area but they came more from

the Dallas area into Plano.

Mr. SOUDER. The interesting thing is that often suburban money

has—which I have heard in a lot of inner-city areas, is then corrupting the inner-city, and the violence related to the conflicts between the gangs spreads to the poor areas because they want to

sell to the more affluent. And because the gang violence often is

not in the suburban area, they do not feel responsible for it. But

it is their usage that is causing the gang violence, in many cases,

in the urban centers, because they are fighting over their market.

They come down and they shop down in those areas, so the people

who live there get the street fighting. The people in the suburbs

want to act like nothing is happening there because their kids are

going and getting it in another place. Thanks.

Mr. MICA. Thank you, Mr. Souder.

One of the things that I am starting to pick up as we go across

the country is that we have had problems with cocaine and crack,

heroin and other substances that have come in, marijuana, from

abroad. And we are now, I think, on the verge of a national meth

and designer drug epidemic, which has taken on a new dimension.

50

One of you testified that you jumped from 60 meth labs to 300, was

it, in this area?

Mr. SEIB. We are expecting well over 1,000 labs in Oklahoma

this year.

Mr. MICA. Over 1,000 in Oklahoma?

Mr. SEIB. Over 1,000 labs.

Mr. MICA. My God.

Mr. SEIB. In Oklahoma. Now that is State and local labs.

Mr. MICA. Right.

Mr. SEIB. That is DEA-participated labs.

Mr. MICA. So I think we are on the verge, and seeing the statistics, in California it was just astronomical. We had testimony of

parents abandoning their children by the hundreds for this stuff,

and also messing their brains up so badly that, in one case where

they tried to get them back, only a handful would even take their

kids back or were capable of taking their kids back after their

minds are basically destroyed by this stuff.

From our national perspective, you know, we can fight the war

on drugs, things coming into the border, stopping them before they

get to the border. Now we have got a new domestic threat. Maybe

in closing, any ideas for us to take back as to how to deal with this,

Mr. Pappas?

Mr. PAPPAS. I would like to see more drug testing done in the

schools.

Mr. MICA. The program that we just heard in New Orleans is

very effective. I mean, this was done first in a private school and

they are going now to public school. The courts have ruled, I guess,

that in athletic and extra-curricular activities, it is legal. I do not

know if it has really been pressed, the constitutionality of it beyond

that. But in the New Orleans Parish that we held a hearing last

week, incredible results, and the kids seem to like it. Of course, the

parents and school like it and it almost dropped to no incidence of

drug abuse, and it gave everybody cover, particularly for the young

people, who are so victimized by peer pressure, you know, try it,

do not be out of step. That it almost eliminated that.

So you think that drug testing has potential?

Mr. PAPPAS. It would be a good deterrent, I would think.

Mr. MICA. Mr. Seib, anything else?

Mr. SEIB. I think we need more public awareness of what is

going on. You mentioned earlier about the ONDCP ads, something

of $1.2 billion or something. I do not disagree with the program,

but like the Assistant Chief here, I can only recall seeing one TV

commercial and I do not remember seeing any billboards in the

Dallas metroplex. I drive every day for 25, 30 minutes to work. I

do not recall seeing the billboards.

Mr. SESSIONS. Let me add in here, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MICA. Mr. Sessions.

Mr. SESSIONS. This gentleman drives around Dallas a lot. We see

the money that this administration has put in for the new dollar

coins, but we do not see an emphasis on the reduction of drugs.

Mr. MICA. Right, I just saw a full-page ad not long ago.

Mr. SESSIONS. It is incredible to see how this administration has

a blind eye. The last DEA administrator was not even in the room

when his objectives and budget were laid out by the Clinton adminVerDate 11-MAY-2000 10:35 May 31, 2001 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00054 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\71691.TXT HGOVREF1 PsN: HGOVREF1
51

istration. The failure, I believe, of Janet Reno and the President in

this endeavor can be seen even today on our streets. There is not

even anything on our billboards, except of a new dollar coin would

be coming out. This tells you about the administration we have in

Washington, DC that does not understand what the message is

about.

I apologize for interrupting, but that is a personal observation.

Mr. MICA. Mr. Westphal.

Mr. WESTPHAL. Well, obviously in our country, the family unit is

busting at the seams and going all to pieces. And I think that,

based on our experience here, just how minute it may be in comparison to the rest of the country, I feel like that probably for the

long haul, we need to start getting with kids that are a lot younger

than just the fifth grade. We probably need to start early on, educate them. It is not uncommon at the fifth grade level for our LETS

officers to be approached by a student that they have taught, in

fact, in an open classroom and says, well, my mommy smokes marijuana, or my father uses cocaine, what can I do? And of course,

that puts the officer and the teacher and everyone in a precarious

position. And the answer there is not to just go kick their door in

and arrest them, but we have been faced with that.

So obviously, for the long haul, I think that we need to get with

the kids that are a lot younger than just the fifth grade and start

earlier.

Mr. MICA. Well, I would like to thank each of our witnesses in

this panel for their testimony and for their insight and suggestions.

We appreciate your participation this morning, and we have no further questions at this time. So I will excuse this panel. Thank you.

I will call the second panel this morning. The second panel this

morning consists of four witnesses. They are Karen Ramos who is

the principal at Bryan Adams High School; George Williams, trustee for District IV, the Dallas Board of Education; Mr. Justin

Bowen, and he is a student; Dr. John D. Horn, superintendent of

the Mesquite Independent School District. Those are our four witnesses.

And again, let me inform our witnesses this is an investigations

and oversight subcommittee of the U.S. House of Representatives.

We do swear in all of our witnesses, which I will do in just a moment.

If you have lengthy statements or information, background which

you would like to be made part of the record, upon request through

the Chair, that will be granted.

With those comments, I would like to swear you in. If you would

please stand and raise your right hands.

[Witnesses sworn.]

Mr. MICA. Thank you. The record will reflect that the witnesses

answered in the affirmative. And I am pleased to recognize at this

time Karen Ramos, who is the principal at Bryan Adams High

School. Welcome, ma’am, and you are recognized.

52

STATEMENTS OF KAREN RAMOS, PRINCIPAL, BRYAN ADAMS

HIGH SCHOOL; GEORGE WILLIAMS, TRUSTEE, DISTRICT IV,

DALLAS BOARD OF EDUCATION; JUSTIN BOWEN, STUDENT;

AND DR. JOHN D. HORN, SUPERINTENDENT, MESQUITE

INDEPENDENT SCHOOL DISTRICT

Ms. RAMOS. Thank you. My name is Karen Ramos, and I am the

Principal at Bryan Adams High School. I have been in education

for 22 years as a teacher and an administrator. I certainly appreciate this opportunity to speak with you about drugs in schools.

Whenever I speak with parents or students, I remind them that

school is a picture of our society. Drugs are in all parts of society,

therefore, they are in schools. No school is immune to drugs. Perhaps the drug of choice is different, depending on the income of the

neighborhood, but drugs are everywhere.

There is research to show that teenagers that smoke are more

susceptible to drug use later on. As principal of a high school, I am

shocked to see the number of students that smoke on the way to

school in their cars, at the mall and in the community. The word

about the dangers of tobacco has not reached the masses of teenagers in a believable way.

Now to make this personal, let me tell you a little bit about

Bryan Adams High School. It is a school of 2,200, 65 percent of our

students receive free and reduced lunch. Many come from a singleparent family. We have a Dallas police officer on campus, a uniformed security personnel and a resource specialist. We have 138

teachers. In our high school, we have had drug offenses that have

included tobacco use, alcohol and marijuana. We have also found

drug paraphernalia that has been found on the outskirts, hidden

under bushes and things like that around our campus. Students

caught with these items face punishments that include sometimes

a police-issued ticket, perhaps arrest, off-campus alternative placement and parent conferences. But certainly more needs to be done.

We have had a program in our district called DFYIT. DFYIT is

financed through title moneys. Students signed a drug-free promise

and took a random drug test. As a result, students received discounts from the community for fast food, senior ring discounts,

yearbooks, etc. Sadly, our district has had to cut this down due to

lack of personnel. But positive programs like this one, and LETS

for elementary students certainly need to be continued. Students

really do want the truth about drugs and alcohol presented in noncondescending way.

What other behaviors can be linked to drug and alcohol abuse?

Certainly skipping school, truancy, failing grades are attached to

this lifestyle. Violent behaviors can also be linked to these students, and passive, almost non-functional students that do not participate in the world around them is contributing to this lifestyle.

My recommendations to this panel would include continued funding of drug education at all levels, K through 12. Decrease the size

of schools. Schools should not be large institutions. Incentives for

students to participate in random drug testing, perhaps tied to the

driver’s license or reduced car insurance fees. Make a required

length of stay for students remanded to alternative schools, longer

than 6 weeks. Six weeks does not even begin to scratch the surface

for an addict. Stiff punishments for people trafficking marijuana,

53

drugs, and participating in gang violence. Incentives for companies

to interact with schools through tutoring and mentoring. It is important to save our resources.

Thank you so much for this opportunity to speak with you.

[The prepared statement of Ms. Ramos follows:]

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55

56

Mr. MICA. Thank you for your testimony this morning. And we

will now hear from George Williams, who is a Trustee with District

IV of Dallas’s Board of Education. You are recognized, sir.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. I appreciate you inviting a representative from the Dallas

School Board to speak to you this morning.

The Dallas School District has a zero drug policy. I serve on the

community relations board for the Federal prison in Seagoville, and

in that Federal prison, 70 percent of our inmates are drug-related

inmates. So when you look at our society and when you look at a

Federal prison in our community, and seeing how prevalent drugs

are, one of the solutions that I feel is teaching our young people

about drugs.

The Dallas Independent School District receives about $1.7 million in Title IV money for drug preventative programs. In some

documents that I have given you—and I have given some new ones

to you—that show the programs that we have implemented this

year, with some new administration. We have really tried to accelerate aggressively our drug preventative programs. Our drug preventative programs and educational programs incorporate all students from the preschool level to the 12th grade.

Our comprehensive programs and educational strategies are

based on four principles of proven effectiveness. First we have a

needs assessment. Second, measurable goals and objectives. Third,

research-based programs and fourth, evaluation.

When you get our documents—and I am not sure if you got the

latest one that I am giving you, of the different programs that we

have, but one of the things that you will find in the 1999 and 2000

year, you will see, on an elementary, middle school and high school

level, the alcoholic beverage that students have been involved with,

you will see that marijuana and other controlled substances are the

highest level of problems that we have. You will see the glue and

aerosol paint and cigarettes. We have got three recommendations

that we would like to make to you, and you have that in our written testimony.

One of the documents I have given you is our Title IV budget category in 1999 and 2000 to show that we have 15 salaried personnel, as well as consultants, that are involved in teaching our kids

about drugs. You will see our 2000–2001 proposed budget. And you

will see that, on instructional supplies, we spent about 800,000 in

the year 1999 and 2000. We are going to ask to increase that by

a half million dollars in the 2000–2001 budget.

There is a couple of pages there that you will be able to go

through and see where we have implemented our taxpayer dollars

into those programs. We not only utilize our Federal Title IV, but

we have State as well as local community involvement in our drug

programs. I chair the audit committee, and one of the things that

we do is we monitor the programs. And so I have given you some

statistical data for you to be able to take back and analyze where

the tax dollars are being spent.

Thank you very much.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Williams follows:]

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59

Mr. MICA. Thank you for your testimony. And we will now hear

from Mr. Justin Bowen. And I think he is a recent graduate of

Seagoville High School. You are recognized, sir. Welcome.

Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. MICA. Yes, Mr. Sessions.

Mr. SESSIONS. Just for one moment.

This young man who is before us, and he may end up saying this

to us, I believe, was the president of the student body presidents

of all of the DISD, meaning he was the president of the presidents

organization that represented all of DISD schools. He is a young

man who further has been my nominee to the U.S. Military Academy and will be attending West Point this summer for a full scholarship representative of the 5th District of Texas. And I want you

to know that he is one of the most outstanding young leaders that

we have in Dallas.

And so I would like for this committee to recognize that this

young man is not only an outstanding student, a leader in his

ROTC, a leader in his church, but also a leader among his peers.

And so he comes as a great representative of our best students.

Mr. MICA. Thank you.

Mr. SESSIONS. I apologize for the interruption.

Mr. MICA. Thank you for that introduction.

Mr. SOUDER. He is clearly sending you to the Military Academy

because now you have to serve in the military and cannot run

against him. [Laughter.]

Mr. SESSIONS. I tell you what—— Mr. SOUDER. He is getting ready for your seat, Mr. Sessions.

Mr. SESSIONS. I tell you what, if we are not preparing the best

to run for Congress or to be school board president, or to be a principal, then we are making a mistake. Mr. Bowen, I have the greatest of confidence in you, and if you decide at some point to get into

politics, I will be your biggest supporter.

Mr. BOWEN. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. MICA. With those comments, Mr. Bowen, you are recognized.

Mr. BOWEN. I would like to thank the subcommittee for, first of

all, allowing me to speak on behalf of the students, because many

times the decisions are made and the voices of the students are not

heard. And I think that is one of the most important things.

My first remark would be that it is time for America to come together on our problem and to stop placing the blame on generation

me or Generation X, or whoever it may be, because right now, as

we look at the problem, it is not a generation problem, it is America’s problem. And I think that is the most important thing that can

come out of here.

As I look out, usually I have many kids or many teenagers that

come and ask me for advice, whether it is on drugs or anything like

this, and the truth is that they do this because they are scared if

they go to someone over here, that they might report it, or anything like that. And the truth is that they are really crying out for

help. They are crying out silent cries.

And it is not only the users, but it is also the family members

of the users. I cannot sit here and tell you, you know, how to solve

it because I do not know. And I cannot tell you where it comes

from, because I do not know, because my mom raised me and I

60

have a brother who was into drugs. I have not ever tried drugs.

And so I do not know where it comes from or how it comes about,

but I know that it has affected my family directly, for the fact that

my cousin and my brother got heavily involved in drugs. And I

never did. But I guess seeing the effects on them kind of reflected

back to me.

And so just to point out that it does not only affect the users, but

it also affects the family members of the users. And the plague, basically the drugs, they are killing our families. And when I look at

it, I know that they are hurting our schools and I know they are

hurting our communities. But when I see the approach to solving

the problem, I think that the first step we need to do is to save

our families. Because I think when we save our families, then we

can save our schools. And when we save our schools, we can save

our communities. And I think that is the approach that goes to it.

As one of the gentlemen before me who spoke, he mentioned, you

know, that he would approve drug testing in schools. I think when

people look on that, they think, well, students, if you tell them you

want to do drug testing in their school, they are not going to approve of it. The truth is that many of them are out there and they

support it. And they would support any effort it would take to

make their home life, you know, more safe or whatever it may be.

But I think that drug testing in schools would help us out a lot.

I know if I was still in high school—I am a recent graduate—that

I would have approved of it. When the DFYIT program came into

our school, actually my last approach to it was middle school, and

even then we were excited about the program for the fact that, one,

we were looking forward to Six Flags and discounts like that, but

it gave us, you know, a way of initiating our drug testing and stuff

like that. It motivated us actually to want to go take the test, and

we actually wanted people to come in and drug test us so we could

get discounts on stuff.

But I think the failure came—I do not know where it came with

DFYIT, but after the eighth grade, I was drug tested one time, and

never again. Maybe it was budget or anything like that. But I

think that if we continue organizations like that, then eventually

we will save our families and save our students. We cannot only,

I guess, send money to the schools because we cannot expect our

teachers, as we do so often, to shoulder the burden. It is not only

a teacher problem.

And I know in the DISD, one of the things we have in high

schools—or we had, I think we are getting rid of that, or they are,

is that they had a Youth Action Center Officer. Now what that officer was able to do was—and maybe Ms. Ramos could tell you

also—is if a student had a problem, that officer was normally an

educator, used to be an educator. We could go to that guy and we

could say, look, here is the problem. Do not tell me about it, you

know, that I told you so-and-so is doing this, but will you check

into it, or will you look into it? As opposed to going to a police officer who, if you say, look, my friend has drugs in his locker, you

know, I mean and fear of arrest or anything like that.

Many high school students, they fear the police officers in their

own building. Not that they will get shot or anything like that, but

that, you know, somebody will get arrested or something like that.

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And that is why they do not turn anyone in, that is why they do

not report it. And I think that by getting rid of the Youth Action

Center Officers, we are making a big mistake because we are taking educators out of our schools, and that is the educator I would

have trusted to go to with my problem, and say, hey, look, here is

what is happening, will you check into it.

So I think we should look into more of that in our schools, not

only putting more officers with guns strapped to their side in our

schools, but, you know, also educators, who are former educators,

that can take these problems into consideration and know exactly

how to deal with students. I think we ought to seriously look into

that.

And just in closing, I feel that if we do not unite as a country

then our families will die out, and then our kids will continue to

fall into depressions, and teens will continue to take their own lives

and the America we all once knew and loved, it will eventually fall.

And drugs in our communities ruin the homes of America but

drugs in our schools ruin the future of America. We must clean up

our country, one family at a time, one school at a time, and eventually one community at a time. Only in this manner will America

cleanse itself of such a plague.

Thank you once again for allowing me to speak before you.

Mr. MICA. Thank you for your testimony. And I will now recognize Dr. John Horn, superintendent of the Mesquite Independent

School District. Dr. Horn, you are recognized.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Bowen follows:]

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Dr. HORN. Mr. Chairman, thank you, and committee members.

I am privileged to follow such an outstanding young man here. It

is inspiring to hear someone speak as you have just spoken.

Having heard the prior panel, where you had assistant police

chief of the city of Mesquite, Gary Westphal, essentially describe

most of the programs that we have in place, I am not going to go

over those again, and save your time. It is in the written testimony

that we have provided.

There is one addition to that, and that is a middle school program we have called a youth conference where we have students

in the middle schools to select their leaders. And these leaders

come to a full day of training and program activities. And the theory is that they go back then and work with the rest of the student

body. And we provide training for them in decisionmaking and

handling peer pressure, etc. That program has also worked very

well.

The other observation is that the partnerships that we have cultivated and maintained for many years have also been brought into

play on the gang and drug use among young people. And that

would include our city, our school district, our Chamber of Commerce, our churches and other organizations.

In fact, there is a group, and I am not sure if Mr. Westphal defined this, but it is called the Youth Services Committee, which

was begun some years ago. That is where they solicit the information from students about what they saw as needed to find a path

out of some of the usage that was going on. And we have had reasonably good success, in terms of the gang activity. Drug usage is

difficult to ascertain, I think, but nonetheless, the partnerships, we

believe, are essential to any community to address the problem.

That was one thing I would say.

Another is that we keep looking for a silver bullet, or vaccination

like those to get rid of smallpox or polio. It is not out there. It is

like we can educate the child, therefore they know. Knowledge, as

we know, children or adults, does not necessarily translate into

changed behavior, and there is no such thing as a one-shot effort

education. So what the implication of that is, is that it must be

continuous, it must be embedded and it must be supported. We are

really talking about decisionmaking. And we need to enable young

people to have good decisionmaking skills.

There are a lot of things that are occurring that—I know the

word enabler is sort of a hot-button word sometimes, but we have

heard testimony this morning, and I concur, that there are a lot of

things that society and perhaps parents are doing that enable their

offspring to engage in the use of drugs. And maybe the schools are

doing some of that as well. But I think that it is important that

we have a continuous program of education, continuous program of

partnerships, and a continuous program of intervention kinds of

things that work. And finally, a continuous program of support.

Young people must have support, all along the way. And I think

that would be the greatest thing that we can do to address the

problem we have.

Thank you.

Mr. MICA. Thank you. And I thank each of the witnesses for

their testimony.

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First, Principal Ramos, you have seen what we are doing at the

Federal level, as far as attempting to assist in developing prevention and education programs. Given what you have seen, since we

cannot do everything, what would be your priorities that you would

recommend that we take back to Congress for us to concentrate on?

Ms. RAMOS. I am currently in the process right now of writing

a proposal for the smaller learning grants that are sponsored

through the Federal Government. I think that the large schools

lend themselves to a person being not known.

Mr. MICA. Your school is 2,000?

Ms. RAMOS. Almost 2,200, yes.

Mr. MICA. That is a large school.

Ms. RAMOS. It is too big, correct.

Mr. MICA. And we seem to be building them bigger and bigger.

So that is one thing that you would encourage?

Ms. RAMOS. That would be the first one. And then the second

thing, I heard your comment about the commercials, $1 million

being spent.

Mr. MICA. $1 billion.

Ms. RAMOS. $1 billion? I am sorry.

Though I found those interesting and funny or provocative, those

alone are not the kind of education that changes anybody’s behavior, I do not think. I think that quality education that is not condescending to kids, that is truthful and informative, is good for

young people no matter if they are in the kindergarten or in the

12th grade. But so often it is so heavily laden with a preach component that kids turn off. So I think education is important, and the

program that I like that I have had the most success with is the

DFYIT program. But because kids voluntarily become part of it.

They get random tests, and also they get something immediately

for it.

Mr. MICA. So part of the DFYIT program is random drug testing?

Ms. RAMOS. Yes.

Mr. MICA. Would you be supportive of mandatory drug testing,

or at least random drug testing in public schools?

Ms. RAMOS. Yes.

Mr. MICA. Mr. Williams.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Same question?

Mr. MICA. Yes.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I would.

Mr. MICA. And Dr. Horn.

Dr. HORN. We have some voluntary programs now for drug testing for students involved in athletic programs in the schools.

Mr. MICA. Right. And I think the courts have upheld those for

extracurricular and sports activities. Do you see a problem?

Dr. HORN. At the conceptual level, I would agree that some random testing could be beneficial. But I think you have got to have

community support for that.

Mr. MICA. Well, what about an opt-out program for parents who

do not want their kids tested?

Dr. HORN. That would be a way to satisfy probably some of the

legal hurdles you have to get over.

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Mr. MICA. I think that is what they are going to do in New Orleans, now that they are shifting from the private to public, is allowing an opt-out.

Mr. Bowen, you testified you thought that the testing offers a

positive incentive?

Mr. BOWEN. I think so. I think in the past, kids maybe were like,

you know, well, it is not that big of a deal, you know, I do not want

to do the testing, you know, if I do not have to. But I think kids

nowadays, as you have in D.C., they see that drugs are killing their

friends, and they see that drugs are ruining their families, and I

think that is why they are willing, you know, more than in the

past, more willing to take the initiative. Whether they have to sacrifice, you know, whatever it may be, but take the initiative to get

tested. So I think they are willing to.

Mr. MICA. Well, I think in your testimony, did you say you were

raised by your mom?

Mr. BOWEN. Correct, yes.

Mr. MICA. OK. Sometimes people say that the drug problem is

just a problem of dysfunctional or single-parent families. But we

found that—and I alluded to some of that in my comments, it is

striking church-going, Bible-thumping, normal nuclear families.

This is an epidemic that is affecting everybody. The last thing we

can do in Congress is dictate every type of government program

from Washington that is going to be successful. I think that some

of the things we have done to try to strengthen the family, Welfareto-Work and some of the other incentives that we have tried to do

revising some of the mandated programs, have helped. But we still

have the problem of trying to get Federal dollars to programs that

are most effective.

Did you say that $1.7 million comes into your district, Mr. Williams?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, it does.

Mr. MICA. I did not see in your testimony. You were going to provide us with how that money is spent?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. And I think I had 50 handouts.

Mr. MICA. Can you just tell us, do you know how that breakdown

is? Maybe you should change some of that. Is it for DARE or drug

education programs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Let me see if I can hand that to you, a couple of

those copies. There is quite a few, on the salaries we have, 15 positions at $700,000, and it gives you a list of the different descriptions that we have.

Mr. MICA. Oh, I see. This addendum is not in our packet.

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I had them actually working on it yesterday,

to be more complete, thorough. The information that we sent you,

I did not have this, and since I chair the audit committee. I am

specific on being able to have documentation as far as specific dollar amounts and data. And so it does give you some of the consultants and different Drug-Free Youth in Texas, independent evaluation, FYI and the different expenditures there. Instructional supplies, as I said, was a little over $800,000. We would like to increase that by half a million.

You will see that the dollars, right off the bat, will tally more than $1.7 million. Believe it or not, we actually had some addiVerDate 11-MAY-2000 10:35 May 31, 2001 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00069 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\71691.TXT HGOVREF1 PsN: HGOVREF1
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tional funds that were not used last year, and we are being aggressive with our new administration of using every dollar that we

have.

Mr. MICA. Have you considered like an experimental drug testing

program, maybe with one of your problem schools?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, we actually have a number of schools that

have volunteer testing, in which we have another list that we certainly can provide to you. Students who have volunteered to take

the test, and one particular high school, we had 122 students take

it. 120 of them came up clean, 2 of them are on the statistical data

here with drug problems. But we had, I think, about 27 schools

who have voluntarily taken the drug testing students that have

signed up.

Mr. MICA. How many students does this district serve?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We have approximately 163,000 students.

Mr. MICA. 163,000.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 9,000 teachers, approximately

18,000 total employees.

Mr. MICA. And what do you think about the recommendation of

Ms. Ramos, about smaller schools?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, we certainly agree that, the smaller the

school—I mean, our elementary schools, you would love to have an

elementary school at 500 and 600. We have elementary schools at

800. I mean, we are overcrowded. But the smaller schools, certainly

with smaller class sizes, would give us a better chance of educating

our kids. I do not know if we better tell him how many kids we

have in a class, but we certainly have too many in a class. We need

to get the student ratio of our teachers down.

But I would like to comment on the advertising budget.

Mr. MICA. OK.

Mr. WILLIAMS. When I was in California, I saw newsclip ads

about kids staying in school and about drug prevention. I thought

it was very, very positive to go along with our educational programs, as a reminder. It is just like when you see an ad for a restaurant, you are going down the highway, you are not thinking

about eating Fajitas or steaks, or anything, you see that little reminder that there is a restaurant. Let us go have seafood.

So I think this little advertising campaign, truly, if it is implemented with our media, such as Smokey the Bear, well, all of a

sudden we started changing our fire, when we were kids. Same

thing with some of the things in Dallas, we had deal, it is 10 p.m.,

do you know where your kids are? Well, when that plays on television every night at 10 p.m., you think, gosh, where is my teenage

daughter or son?

I think with staying in school, with learning through continued

education and drug prevention, I truly believe that if we would get

all of our media to buy into that, even in the newspaper media, as

you just commented about a full-page ad about the new coins, that

if we had something, have you talked to your kids about drugs

today? I was at one of our high schools. In some cases, we have single parents. In some cases, we do not have a parent at all. I sat

in one of the classes, and the teacher said it used to be that kids

did not have a dad at home. Well, in some cases they do not have

a dad or mom because they are in jail because of drugs, was her

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comment. So we have a grandparent or a friend, or either the kid

has dropped out of school.

We have educational programs. It does not make any difference

how much money you have. You can have the designer drug, if you

are in Plano. But in Dallas Independent School District, we have

52 percent of Hispanic kids, 37 percent African-American; 90 percent are minority kids. They may not have the money that the kids

have in Plano or in Mesquite, some of the suburban districts, but

they certainly can get the other drugs that are low-dollar drugs.

Drugs has to be continued to have the funding to be able to train

and teach our young kids. We have started off with a new program

where we, I think, are getting $300,000 for our middle school program. We need to start at the pre-K and the first and second and

third grade.

So whether we come up with a national character, as we did with

Smokey the Bear, in drug prevention, whatever kind of character

that we have, but our kids have to know what it does to families

and what it does for our kids. Our mission statement is to graduate

every child, every child to be a productive citizen, highly trained

and skilled to be a productive citizen. They cannot be a productive

citizen if they are tied to the drugs.

Mr. MICA. Mr. Sessions.

Mr. SESSIONS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thought I was going

to ask a question and I am not sure that the numbers lead that

way, but I will ask it anyway.

Mr. Bowen, how destructive or how pervasive are drugs to an average person that goes to Seagoville High School? Do they see

them, football activities, after-school dances, can you see the kids

that are on drugs, and do you know them and how prevalent is it?

And alcohol.

Mr. BOWEN. I think, well, obviously alcohol is a major problem.

And that is noticed from parties and everything of that nature.

I guess I was one of the lucky ones for the fact that I took such

an approach to so many things that I was so involved in things

that I was not offered drugs too often. They were kind of, I guess,

leery of offering them to me, and I was just offered it for the first

time last week. And in my written testimony, I think, which is out

there, I said I was insulted by that because of the guy. But you

know who the users are.

Mr. SESSIONS. Did you feel like you would want to turn him in

to the police department?

Mr. BOWEN. Would I?

Well, that was Cancun, when he offered it to me. And so that is

one of those things. But if he was to do it here, yeah, I would. I

would not hesitate. And like I said, if I was in school and he offered

it to me, I would not hesitate to go to that officer, that Youth Action Center Officer and say, hey, look, you know, because I am one

of those people where I understand, you know, that sometimes you

do wrong things. But you do not bring it, and you do not allow it

to affect everyone else. You just do not do that. And so you know,

I would have turned him in. I would have.

And in school, I mean, you know, that is what I am saying, many

students go to a police officer, they know somebody has a chance

of getting arrested, which that should happen if you are trying to

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sell it at school. And if you are trying to do that stuff, that should

happen, and you need help. And so that is why we need, you know,

officers there that we feel comfortable around. Somebody stated

earlier that when they see police officers they do not feel comfortable. That is all too often. It happens all too often, you do not

feel comfortable around police officers. And I do not know why, either, you know, a lot of them are great guys.

Mr. SESSIONS. Well, they are there to protect the law.

Mr. BOWEN. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Mr. SESSIONS. Uphold the law.

Mr. BOWEN. I think at school, though, you know who the users

are, you see them. You know who the guys are, pretty much, providing it. At Seagoville, I guess we are in a very different situation

than Bryan Adams, though, because we are so much smaller. We

have, I think close to probably 1,000, a little over 1,000 students

at Seagoville. It seems as if the older you get, you assume your providers, your drug providers are kind of older. Our senior class is

probably a whole lot smaller than Bryan Adams.

We might have the problem, but it is kind of on a reduced rate

as opposed to Bryan Adams. And really, at Seagoville, you probably

assume maybe two or three people there are providing, maybe, and

using drugs, you know, further out at the parties. I do not hear

about marijuana, I mean heroin and stuff of that nature. You hear

more about marijuana at Seagoville, and stuff like that. But alcohol

is a major problem there, it really is, because I mean, you come

back on Monday, and you hear about the people that drank alcohol

on Friday. So it is a major problem.

Mr. SESSIONS. Ms. Ramos, I had an opportunity to have your job

for a day and I think I would love to next year let you have my

job for a day, because I think I learned a lot by walking in your

sandals. And of course, as you know, we are going to have one of

your officers who will be on the next panel.

What do we do about drugs in schools? I know we discussed testing. What do we really need to do? Do we need to be more active?

Do we need to come in and do something about it, or are you, as

an educator, working with the police department trying to keep it

in its proper perspective and attack only the problem?

Ms. RAMOS. Well, I was interested in the first panel when the

man from DEA spoke. I have never had anyone approach me from

that agency to talk, or to work with drug education on our campus.

I am a real proponent of education and letting people know so they

can make good choices. I think that sort of a partnership, that free

flow of information needs to occur.

I also think that we do need to keep it in perspective because

there are many students just like Mr. Bowen here that are making

good choices, and are going to be the leaders of tomorrow. I think

we do need a strong parent component because the drug of choice

at Bryan Adams is alcohol followed by marijuana. And all too often,

our parents do not understand the implications of being involved

in alcohol and what it does later on, perhaps to get you involved

in other things.

And I am concerned about the lack of parenting and the way that

parents—I am a parent also, and I work also—have sometimes an

attitude, you have him for 8 hours, you know, you deal with them

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and I will get him back when he comes back to my house. I do not

know how you bridge that, I do not know how you make parents

your allies, because as the gentleman before me spoke, in the earlier panel, you have very positive people that want intervention,

parents, when you tell them there is a problem, and then you have

the parents that, ‘‘not my kid,’’ in denial sort of thing.

So I think education and then a penalty. I think that kids want

to feel safe, teachers want to feel safe, all of us want to feel safe.

And so if a problem is uncovered, there should be something that

we can do about it. Whether that is getting someone in treatment

or getting parents and family into counseling, but there should be

something that those of us not involved can look at and say, oh,

there was a problem and they are attempting to find a solution. Because all too often, the solutions that we have are so quick, you

know, go here for 6 weeks and you will come back and you will not

have that drug problem anymore. And we know that that does not

happen. That takes sometimes years to get out of the cycle of alcohol or drug abuse.

So I think whatever remedy there is, it needs to be long-term.

And I think, as Mr. Williams spoke, it needs to begin early, very

early in a kid’s life, because kids see this on TV, they see it in the

movies, they hear sports people talk about what they have done,

and we need to begin to explain it, even though it might not be in

our house, because they are being bombarded with it, even as we

might be just letting them watch the Disney Channel. But they are

hearing, they are seeing it, and they need to have as much information to make good decisions.

Mr. SESSIONS. I would just like to make a comment, and I am

not going to ask a question. But I want you to know, Dr. Horn, that

of all the people that I have ever known in education, including

this panel that is with you and some that may follow, there is not

one person who I have greater respect for, and who I believe is a

fine administrator and a person who has the finest capability of

any person I have ever met in education. And I want to thank you

for being here today, and believe that your wisdom and judgment

is important to MISD, and at any time that this subcommittee, the

members who are here and also that we work with in Washington,

we are very open to hearing from you, and any of you, about the

ways in which we can do a better job.

With that, I yield my time, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MICA. Thank you, Mr. Sessions. I now recognize Mr. Souder.

Mr. SOUDER. It is DFYIT, as opposed to defiance?

Ms. RAMOS. Yes.

Mr. SOUDER. DFYIT. How many people participate in that roughly, do you have any idea?

Ms. RAMOS. Well, in our school, we had over——

Mr. MICA. I do not know if they can hear you, Mr. Souder.

Mr. SOUDER. Everybody from Texas could understand what you

were saying on DFYIT. I was the Hoosier rural.

Mr. MICA. Does it not stand for something?

Ms. RAMOS. Yes. Drug Free Youth in Texas.

Mr. SOUDER. You started to tell me, in your school.

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Ms. RAMOS. In our school, we had over 200 this year, however

they became disillusioned because some of the things that they

were promised did not come to fruition.

Mr. SOUDER. So 200 of the—— Ms. RAMOS. 200 of the 2,200 students were involved in it.

Mr. SOUDER. And the things did not come through because of the

number of people?

Ms. RAMOS. No, no. Things did not come true because of some

funding issues that I am not privy to.

Mr. SOUDER. Do you know, Mr. Williams, was this in Dallas?

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was in our district, but I honestly do not know

anything about that particular program.

Mr. SOUDER. So that was not—any of the funding for that did not

come through Drug Free Schools money?

Ms. RAMOS. Yes.

Mr. SOUDER. Did it come from drug-free?

Mr. MICA. We are not going to be able to do that.

Mr. SOUDER. Oh, OK. I am not going to do that. OK. I am sorry.

Mr. MICA. We will not ask that.

Mr. SOUDER. The reason I wondered, those two questions are the

difficult questions. I was a staffer before I was a Member of Congress, and one of the things I worked with with Senator Coats was,

in 1989, in fact, one of the two schools that started in Indiana on

athletes on drug testing, and went through a circuit court and was

upheld if you tested for voluntary activity, there was a school in

Texas that was pioneering the next—and I cannot remember where

because I am going to be 50 this summer and your brain cells start

dying at 28 which means at 50 you are really in trouble—but in

Texas they were drug testing all the students, and there was a

question, was there probable cause, and the courts are still working

through, district by district, of what you can do.

You can get around that with voluntary incentives, which is better than nothing, but not necessarily getting the most at-risk kids.

But we attached a bill that allows any Drug Free Schools money

can be used by a system for drug testing. The problem is, we are

still working through, depending by district, where the courts are,

where the parent support groups are. It has to be truly random,

you have to have alternative tests. But it is clearly an accountability function.

In my district, we now have two high schools that are doing uniform random testing, and another high school where I met with the

seniors, the superintendent of that district and the principal were

in the room, they had slipped in in the back, and listened to the

exchange we had. It was real interesting, the student body president, the senior class president, the student council vice president

were all against it. And then some kids started speaking up for the

drug testing.

After we were done, the principal and superintendent decided to

implement drug testing, because the kids who spoke up for it were

all kids who either had alcohol or marijuana problems or were suspected of those problems, and several of them that had been caught

in athletic or in voluntary programs and said, our lives would not

have turned around without the drug testing. The other activists

and some of the kids who were making the arguments were, oh,

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there is a rights question, it could embarrass people, it is a waste

of time, what if I had a McDonald’s sandwich and the sesame seed

bun set me off? You know, this type of question, way back on old

type of tests, as opposed to the current.

But the fact is the kids who actually had their lives changed

knew that—in fact, some of them, a couple of them who had not

been caught and who were just suspect said, it would be easier to

tell the other kids that we could not participate in an activity and

the peer pressure because we would just tell them, well, you know,

I could get caught. And it is not a solution in the sense of getting

to the core problems, but it is a way to check it and is allowable

use of Drug Free Schools funds. It is, when combined in particular

with incentives to make it a positive, even if it is just a reward system, it is clearly where we are headed in a lot of programs.

I am right now one of the arch villains in this country, with

every, bluntly put, whiney college newspaper editor in the country

because we put a new standard on student loans in this country

that was not enforced aggressively this year, but next year it is

going to be there, and schools are going to have an obligation. And

in the higher-ed amendments we just passed, we are going to have

an information package that has to get to every student. If you are

busted when you are in college, you now lose your student loan for

1 year. I put in a clause that says, if you go to treatment or if you

test clean twice, you can get it back before the year is up, because

our goal is not to kick kids out of college, our goal is to get them

clean. And that we are either serious about this stuff or we are not

serious about it. And if you get busted twice, you are out for 2

years, third time you are out. If you are a dealer, it is once.

Now kids need to know, if they are headed in, that we had a big

conflict whether high school previous convictions were going to deprive you of a student loan coming in. The Department of Education interpreted it that way, but that was not the way I intended

it in the original amendment and we are clarifying that in the

higher-ed. It is only once you receive, once you fill out that high

school application, and once you say, we are getting a government

subsidized loan. Now that summer period beforehand, you are

going to be held accountable. That is another tool with which to

educate kids. There is a risk and an accountability with this. Ultimately, we have to have more prevention.

But I really like the positive—I like the idea of tying it to car

insurance. If our car insurance companies would do that, that is

clearly another area to move.

I am curious, in the Dallas school system, you said you had 89

percent minority?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 90, yes.

Mr. SOUDER. Do you have, even if you are part of the city, you

can have separate school districts? Is that part of the—how does

that work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, Dallas and the school district is made up of

part of the Dallas County. Justin happens to live in Seagoville, it

has its own police department, fire department, it is a separate

city, but it is part of the Dallas Independent School District. So we

make up a wide variety of different cities that make up the Dallas

Independent School District.

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But we have nine different districts and I represent District IV,

approximately 100,000 registered voters, it makes up a certain segment of our community. In my district, I have approximately 27

schools, 3 high schools, 3 middle schools. But our district, in some

areas, may not be as strong with minority students, where we may

have some districts that are totally minority.

But to answer your question, we have 90 percent of minority students.

Mr. SOUDER. Dr. Horn, you may have an opinion on this, too, as

well as Mr. Williams, that we are wrestling in the Education Committee. One of the first questions people say, you have too many

people in administration and not enough in the classroom. That

every time we go through and have one of these hearings, we hear,

we need this resource specialist, we need this special program, we

have this government reporting—any time you get funds, you have

more reporting. That is tension No. 1.

And one of the fundamental questions that I wrestle with all the

time, is the most effective anti-drug program an anti-drug program,

or is the most effective anti-drug program pouring this money into

getting kids’ skill levels up in education and then holding them accountable through drug testing or other things? Because if we give

them the skills—I know that is a question you face every day in

every funding decision. But clearly, every time we devise another

government program that diverts resources from the fundamental

part of education to provide support, it is clear, if a kid is getting

abused at home, if his parents are on drugs, are not helping him

get there, or if he is on drugs or alcohol, trying to teach him

English is pretty difficult.

But this is a tough chicken/egg question. I just appreciate your

comments.

Dr. HORN. Well, a big part of what we are dealing with here is

relationships. And that is why I am going to come back to saying

that the family and individual, it is about decisionmaking and the

strength of those relationships and support all along the way.

There is no vaccination.

In terms of what we can do in schools, I think it is going to take

a community-wide approach, and I guess one of the questions is,

what is the role of the Federal Government in this. And I am not

prepared to answer. But I do think that, the research is one area,

and I think that incentive kinds of things is another. And we do

not get that much money for the Drug Free Schools Act, it comes

through our regional education service center. There are 20 of

those in the State, and we do a cooperative with them. Probably

less than $200,000.

So with respect to the bureaucracy that is necessary to administering the program, I think that will always be a problem. But

I think if you listen to Mr. Bowen here, he is saying a lot of kids

are crying out. And that is true. And there is not someone to go

to. And if there is not the family, which we would like it to be, then

there has got to be some other source. So typically the safest place

for kids is at school, in terms of the emotional challenges they face,

sometimes as well as physical safety.

So I am not sure what form the support should take, but in some

ways, you think about the American family being in crisis, and

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whether it can heal itself may be a big question. There may be

some ways we can help American families to be more effective. And

I do not think from an enforcement perspective, but just from support. If you have a family that is in crisis and one of their children

is on drugs or in trouble with the law, where does that family turn

to? If they happen not to be connected to a church, where do they

go to? And you heard Mr. Bowen talk about the Youth Action Center at the school. So there may be some opportunities there to provide support for the family that is in crisis.

A final comment on the ratio of administrators and teachers, you

just need to look at the research about that from the various

sources that you have. And there has not been a proliferation of administrators, typically, in public schools in America. That is an absolute myth. You have support and facilitation people that are required to do the things that need to be done. Special education programs in particular are where you have the greatest amount of resources allocated from the Federal Government, and the greatest

amount of resources per student allocated in the public schools.

What we know about teaching and learning is that you will not

have a sustained high performance school without good administrative leadership. You cannot work around the principal to get high

performance, you have to work through, and with. So there is a

place for the school leadership at the district level and the school

leadership at the campus level. And then the services to schools

that are provided by the various other administrative personnel. So

it is a matter of degree, it is not a matter of one against the other.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I will tell you that, with Dr. Horn, and a lot of

our suburban school districts, the ratio for administration in the

campus level is on target where it needs to be. Our new superintendent just reduced our administrative staff by 16 percent a couple of months ago, because in some of your urban large school districts, you will find that we have had too many administration personnel and not enough at the campus level.

But in saying that, I will address about our schools. We not only

need to teach our kids about drugs, we have to teach our teachers.

We have to have training so that our teachers understand to recognize—because I am going to tell you, I would not know what the

smell of marijuana is, I would not know what the majority of these

different drugs. I have gone through a police academy seminar in

which they have had a drug expert come in, and I learned an awful

lot. But I am going to tell you, unless our teachers understand

what is out there, to be able to recognize it, and to be able to know

that they need to help a child, then we have to have training at

the administrative level, and have to have funding to be able to

make that training happen.

We just authorized 95,000 this last week for some individuals to

help us with gang-related teaching for our teachers. There is new

signs, there is new gangs, there is new things out there that we

do not know what to recognize So if we cannot stay up with what

is going on in the drug world, as well as the gang world, our teachers have to be trained to recognize what is going on.

So we need to be able to make sure that there is funding available so that the different districts—and as you heard, we have different challenges for the suburban versus the urban school district,

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different challenges that we all have to face. And so we need to be

able to have diversity of how we can be able to utilize those, and

not just one set rule that, hey, everybody is going to play by the

same field. Here is the funds, you have to do this. There has to be

diversity of those expenditures.

Mr. SOUDER. One thing I would just like to add on drug testing

and that, in the business area, in the Small Business Committee,

we passed—a lot of it came through my subcommittee that allows

businesses to tap into a resource fund of how to set up drug testing. But one thing the law is pretty clear on, do not try to do something to your employees if you do not test yourself. And that it is

something for school districts to consider as well, that if the board,

the superintendent’s office, the principals and the teachers were

taking the tests, then the students would not feel it is just a fingerpointing. It starts with Congress.

Quite frankly, we have got a fair number of less than straightforward Members of Congress who want to test everybody else and

do not test themselves. We have put testing in our office. We have

been having a big internal battle as to whether we can pay for it

with taxpayer funds. Anybody in my office right now who gets drug

tested, I have to pay for out of my personal pocket. I cannot use

campaign funds, I cannot use private donations and we cannot use

office donations, because some Members of Congress do not want

to allow us to drug test because they are worried about it. And that

really upsets me. And that is why a lot of kids are cynical about

our process. If we, as adults, provide the same criteria to ourselves

that we ask of the kids, we may see a different attitude, too.

Mr. MICA. I would like to thank each of the witnesses in this

panel for their testimony, also providing us with their experience

and viewpoint and recommendations. We will try to utilize some of

what we have learned from this and the previous panel, as we return to Congress very shortly.

There being no further questions for this panel, I will excuse you

at this time.

I will call our third and final panel. The third panel today consists of three individuals: Dana Mitchell, who is the director of the

Mesquite Youth Intervention Program; Matt Manning who is with

the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, and Dora Flowers who is a

security officer in Bryan Adams High School. I would like to welcome all three of these witnesses.

And again, this is an investigations and oversights subcommittee

of the U.S. House of Representatives, and we do swear in our witnesses, which I will do in a moment. If you have lengthy statements or additional information you would like to be part of the

record, upon request to the Chair, that will be granted. If you want

to just stay standing, please raise your right hands.

[Witnesses sworn.]

Mr. MICA. And this was answered in the affirmative. And

pleased at this time to recognize first Dana Mitchell, who is the Director of the Mesquite Youth Intervention Program. Welcome, and

you are recognized.

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STATEMENTS OF DANA MITCHELL, DIRECTOR, MESQUITE

YOUTH INTERVENTION PROGRAM; MATT MANNING, FELLOWSHIP OF CHRISTIAN ATHLETES; AND DORA FLOWERS,

SECURITY OFFICER, BRYAN ADAMS HIGH SCHOOL

Ms. MITCHELL. Thank you for having me today.

Mr. MICA.We may need to pull the mic over, if you could do that.

Thank you.

Ms. MITCHELL. Thank you. Mesquite Youth Services is a division

of the city of Mesquite Parks and Recreation Department. The division was established in 1991 as a result of the Youth Services

Steering Committee’s efforts to address some of the troubling

trends involving youth in the community.

The Youth Services Steering Committee, now known as Mesquite

Youth Services, Inc., was responsible for designing a communitybased response to the critical needs of youth. The committee determined early on that the best use of the energies and resources was

to focus on prevention rather than rehabilitation of gangs.

Youth Services takes a multi-faceted approach to prevention. We

operate from the stance that any youth can become at risk, given

the right circumstances. I would like to share with you a brief description of some of the programs that we provide that are making

a difference in the lives of children.

One such program is Youth Options. Youth Options is a violence

prevention education program for fourth-grade students. This program has been very effective in teaching youth alternatives to violence when dealing with conflicts. The program explores violence in

music, television and the media. One student wrote, ‘‘Helped my

self esteem. Thoughts of running away but didn’t. Thank you.’’ We also provide a gang prevention program for sixth grade students. We provide information on the definition of gangs, peer pressure and gang involvement, gang activity, where to go for help, and

the end results, which we know are death or prison.

We have an after-school program provided at a centrally located

community center here in Mesquite. The goal of the program is to

provide support to all young people, age 11 to 14, in a way that

promotes a healthy lifestyle, exposes youth to various cultural and

recreational activities, and provides alternatives to gangs, drugs

and violence.

Youth Services works with community agencies to provide support groups, volunteers and in-kind donations. We have been successful in our programming efforts but lack the funding to adequately provide supervision that can address the level of risky behaviors these youth are exposed to.

For example, there was a young man in the program that was

very defiant, failing in school and had a lot of contact with the police because of complaints. This young man had minimal supervision or support from his mother. On one occasion, a relative

called to say that his mother had been arrested. On another occasion, he informed staff that he might have to drop out of the program because they were moving. They faced eviction because his

mother was suspected of selling drugs out of their home.

A program that has been successful is a youth conference during

National Red Ribbon Week. It is our anti-drug youth conference for

middle school students that is designed to help them make positive

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life choices. As students comment, is confirmed that we have

reached our goal. ‘‘I learned things that we need in life, not just

in the next grade.’’ We could not accomplish our goal without community support.

Mesquite Youth Services, Inc. is a great avenue for everyone to

come to the table with ideas, expertise and resources.

With all the support mentioned above and the many programs

we offer, there remains a need for services. There are many families that need direct intervention and direction to services that can

address their needs.

I have shared with you the stories of success with our prevention

programs, but there are many other stories of families in need of

services. Families who have exhausted all their resources, families

who do not know where to turn for help. Parents whose children

suffer with mental illness and become so aggressive that they are

afraid of them. Parents who cannot get their children to attend

school and face a fine or the loss of their job if they do not get help

soon, and single parents who are tired, frustrated and sometimes

helpless in dealing with the day-to-day task of parenting. These are

the stories that are unforgettable to me. The many people who

need people to help them, to support them, to encourage them,

when dealing with the trials they encounter in life.

Youth Services is working to address these problems but need

additional funds. Although funds are available through the Federal

Government, staff is somewhat hesitant to apply because usually

they are field-initiated grants that have an 18 to 24-month funding

cycle. It has been my experience that it takes up to 24 months to

implement a new program, not to mention determining program effectiveness.

In conclusion, Youth Services has enjoyed much success in its

prevention efforts. Mesquite has realized a reduction in gang activity and criminal activity overall in the last 10 years. Youth Services plans to continue current programming and continue to look

at new and innovative ways to serve youth. Please join our efforts

by supplying funds that are program friendly and allow growth and

development.

Thank you for listening today and caring about communities and

schools.

Mr. MICA. Thank you for your testimony, and we will now hear

from Matt Manning, who is with the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. You are recognized, sir.

[The prepared statement of Ms. Mitchell follows:]

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Mr. MANNING. Thank you, committee. My name is Matt Manning

and I am from Allen High School. I am the president of FCA there,

it is Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

I would like to start off today by thanking you for giving me this

opportunity to speak on behalf of my generation. This is a tremendous honor for me to speak on something so dear to me. I would

first like to start off by telling you a story about two boys that grew

up together and met in the sixth grade.

They are normal little boys. It was in seventh grade that they

both started changing. They went to parties together and experimented with drugs. Their lives soon fell apart and out of control.

Both experienced total chaos. One of the boys in our story was a

Christian. He grew up in a Christian family and accepted Christ

at an early age. He knew all of the Bible stories and all the words

to the hymns, but he really did not have a relationship with Christ.

They both hit rock bottom, and that is where one of the boys found

his Savior for the first time in a long time. He soon developed a

personal relationship with his maker. In turn, this relationship

brought him up from the depths of his own human hell. His life

finally had meaning, and he felt the confidence he gained through

Christ.

I wish I could tell you a good ending for the other boy. He was

not as lucky to have found Christ. He hit rock bottom, and even

went lower. He stayed on the road of destruction into high school.

He overdosed on heroin his sophomore year. Luckily for him, he

was given a second chance. He was found in time for the paramedics to revive him. I wish I could say this encounter with death

changed him, but it did not. He does not have respect for life due

to the fact that he has nothing to live for.

What is the major difference between these two boys? One had

Christ and that has made all of the difference. Christ is the only

reason that I am here today. I was one of the boys in the story.

I thank Him every day for delivering me from that chaotic time in

my life. The difference between me and most teens and myself is

that God has delivered me from that and I have chosen to be drug

free because of that. God has brought meaning into my life so I

have something to live for.

I am here today for the simple reason that there is a drug problem. The use of drugs among teens has increased dramatically in

the past 30 years. Researchers struggle with these facts. They are

attempting to understand why so many teens have turned to drugs

for answers to life problems. The fact of the matter is that every

user is striving to fill a burden that is deep within their heart. In

the last few years, the penalty for being caught with narcotics has

increased dramatically. Although this approach has helped to decrease some abuse, it has not helped control or rid American students of the drug use.

By treating the symptom and not the disease, we continue to fail

in our attempts to rescue this generation from the all-encompassing power of drugs. My solution is to give the students what their

hearts and lives really need. People in society love to complain

about problems around them. They never bring forth any solutions.

Well, I bring to you today a fail-safe way to solve this ever-growing

problem that controls teens today. The answer, I believe, is to bring

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back prayer in schools. By taking God out of schools, the void needed to be replaced by something. Youth today have replaced it with

drugs, alcohol, tobacco, rebellious acts against authority.

In 1962, the Supreme Court took prayer out of school, and yet,

ironically, they have the Ten Commandments posted on their wall.

Our country was founded In God We Trust. We have lost sight of

the truth and it shows in the youth today. Youth today are seeking

direction, peace and fulfillment in their lives. Fellowship of Christian Athletes and other non-denominational organizations work

with athletes and other students to fill this void.

Programs for substance abuse are good, but what is really needed is a life change. The only way a life can be changed is through

the soul or character of a person. This change occurred in my life

through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. God is the only

complete and everlasting cure for the substance abuse.

I hope today that I have enlightened you on the drug problem

that plagues our teens today. The Supreme Court took God out of

our schools, and now it is time for Congress to stand up and fight

for the youth by putting God back into our schools.

Thank you very much and may God give you wisdom and insight.

Mr. MICA. Thank you for your testimony. And we will now hear

from Dora Flowers who is the security officer with Bryan Adams

High School. Welcome and you are recognized.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Manning follows:]

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Ms. FLOWERS. First, I would like to thank Congressman Pete

Sessions for inviting me and giving me this opportunity to be a

part of this very important hearing on drug prevention in the

schools and community. I would like to start my remarks with my

statement.

Texas schools would be safer if all students had easy access to

a system for anonymously reporting criminal activities on school

campus. Students are often the first to know when another student

is bringing drugs. However, fear of being labeled a snitch, or retaliation may keep them from notifying authorities.

Parents should take a more active role in policing their own

homes. Knowing the friends your child chooses and being aware of

activities they are involved in and communicating with your child

about drug use and periodically searching their rooms, if you suspect drug usage. Parents and school faculty needs to be trained to

recognize the early warning signs that a student may show before

doing or selling drugs.

Educate the communities by having schools, churches and organizations work together to educate parents about the effects of

drugs. Provide drug prevention programs with trained and real-life

experiencing people who can give you real insight and information

about the drug crisis in our schools and community. Adopt prevention and awareness programs targeting drug trafficking intervention programs for families that are drug users, where the student

will receive help before it becomes a serious problem. Provide afterschool and weekend activities for students, offer youth mentoring

programs.

And in summary, I would like to just mention that Texas schools

would be safer if students are allowed to report anonymously the

crimes that are taking place in the schools, parents policing their

homes, educating the parents and community with resources that

will enable them to cope with these issues.

[The prepared statement of Ms. Flowers follows:]

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Mr. MICA. Thank you for your testimony. I thank each of the witnesses for their insight and comments to our panel.

First of all, Ms. Mitchell, I am not certain exactly how this Youth

Services program is funded. I read in the testimony, it says, since

becoming a 501(c)(3). Is this now completely a private operation

with public money going into it, and contributions? How are these

activities funded?

Ms. MITCHELL. Well, the majority of the staff is funded through

the city, through public taxpayer money, and then we do have the

incorporation so that we can apply for——

Mr. MICA. I am not sure we can pick that up.

Ms. MITCHELL. OK. And then we also have the incorporation,

Mesquite Youth Services, Inc., so that we can be eligible to apply

for additional funds for our programs as they arise.

Mr. MICA. One of the criticisms you cited was it takes a long

time, first of all, to apply for Federal grants. And then a considerable amount of time to get a program implemented. What can be

done to short-circuit that process? Do you think if there is some

other direction of funds through State block granting, then on down

to these local organizations, would that expedite it?

Ms. MITCHELL. I think that would be helpful. You know, as I

stated in my testimony, with the funding cycles being as short as

they are, by the time you hire staff and you get the program, you

know, up and running, then your money—you have expended all of

your money. And my thought is, you know, if this—and then the

thought behind that is, you know, for the city to find alternate

ways to fund the program, if they think it is effective. And my

thought behind that is, you know, of course, if we have alternative

funding, you know, we would do it from within to begin with.

As far as the money coming down to CDBG, I think that would

certainly be helpful. We have applied for funds through the State

process, the criminal justice division.

Mr. MICA. Is that faster?

Ms. MITCHELL. Yes.

Mr. MICA. It is.

Ms. MITCHELL. And the process is easier.

But along with that, you know, coming from a suburb where we

do not have the devastation that some communities face, oftentimes it is very hard for us to compete for those funds because of

that.

Mr. MICA. Well, we have heard similar criticisms. But any time

you try to block grant all of the funds, substance, mental health

money, I think we now have about 80 percent coming through the

States in the form of block grants. Unfortunately, I think a hearing

we conducted within the last year on this showed that we are using

a large percent of the money, and I think it is in the neighborhood

of $129 million, and 80-some percent of the staff to now oversee

some 20 percent of the programs, which leads me to believe that

we might look at block-granting the entire amount. The only problem is, everyone who now participates on any type of a Federal

grant project basis lobbies Congress not to do away with those individual programs.

What do you think?

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Ms. MITCHELL. Well, I do not know that I necessarily have an

opinion. But you know, if there is a program out there and that is

their main existence, then you certainly do not want to remove that

if that program is effective.

Mr. MICA. But your experience and your testimony seems to indicate, one, it takes a long time to get access to a Federal grant; two,

that the competition is—— Ms. MITCHELL. Is very stiff.

Mr. MICA [continuing]. Is very difficult, and then I guess the

third thing is that it takes a long time for implementation.

Ms. MITCHELL. Right.

Mr. MICA. But your experience in getting the funds through the

State—— Ms. MITCHELL. It is a simpler process.

Mr. MICA [continuing]. Is a simpler process.

Mr. Manning, you cited a personal experience and religious experience that helped you turn away from narcotics. One of the sort

of hands-off areas of Congress is to support anything with a religious connotation, because again, there are some constitutional

questions.

How can we do a better job, in your opinion, from a public standpoint, if we cannot always support these non-public activities or religious activities? What have you seen that we are doing or not

doing that could do a better effort in helping combat the problem

of illegal narcotics used by our young people?

Mr. MANNING. First, we all have to remember that God is in the

business of changing hearts and changing lives, and that is free for

everyone. And with the schools today, I mean, our society has gotten so, you know, separate State and religion, you know, that our

schools have become anti-Christian. That it is now, it is so much

harder to become a Christian in your school, it is harder to pray

in school, it is harder to have an assembly in school. You know, I

have heard of some schools that get in trouble for bringing Bibles

to school, for handing out pamphlets that deal with religion.

And maybe if, you know, kind of subconsciously you guys help—

allow us to spread the word in school. I mean, the Christians in

our school will do that.

Mr. MICA. You do not feel there should be a prohibition, there

should be a little bit more openness to people exercise religious

freedom or rights in school.

Mr. MANNING. Yes.

Mr. MICA. I guess you do have a problem if it is taught or imposed in any way. But that is not what you were talking about.

Mr. MANNING. I know recently in Allen, we no longer have prayer at football games. That is something that we have grown up

with. And you know, whenever you go to a football game, you are

just used to hearing someone pray. And now the State has made

it illegal for us to pray. And that is something, as a Christian, I

do not understand, because people are always searching for something. And we have the answer, and it is just like our State is making us illegal to give the answer, you know. We know, it is like if

we have a drought here, and there is only one waterhole left, we

know where the waterhole is, and can we lead them to the

waterhole, or is it going to be illegal to lead them to the waterhole?

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Mr. MICA. Ms. Flowers, you are a school security officer. How serious a challenge are we facing in the school that you are associated with?

Ms. FLOWERS. Well, I feel we are facing a serious problem. I can

give you my personal testimony of experiences that I have had in

combating that problem. Like I stressed in my statement, students

are more informed than we are. That is the reality of the problem.

And I have had students that would come to me and confide in me

and give me information that led to successful busts. And they

know most of the time before we do who is bringing them in, who

are the users, who are the sellers.

Mr. MICA. How long have you been in your position?

Ms. FLOWERS. Three years.

Mr. MICA. And is the situation better, worse, the same?

Ms. FLOWERS. I would say it is about the same. We have had

some success, but I feel we are still far away from it because of the

fact that the students do not have any access to do it anonymously.

Because there is a lot of them out there that really are crying out

for help, and they do want to act on it, but they are afraid. Afraid

of being labeled a snitch or afraid of retaliation.

Mr. MICA. So you think that they need some additional means

by which they can try to deal with the situation, and also get information to you? Is there anything specific that we can do to assist

in that? Any constraints you are under by the Federal Government,

or other agencies?

Ms. FLOWERS. Well, I do not know what it entails or takes in

order for them to have some form of hotline, OK? 1–800 hotline for

the students in the schools, where they can report it, and then

train people, personnel to followup with investigation.

I have experienced parents also that have cried out for help, for

intervention, as Ms. Mitchell has mentioned in her testimony about

the programs that they offer, but there is not enough. In the inner

school, I have not one program that I can refer parents that come

to me for help.

I had a situation, I would like to share this, and I think you will

get a better understanding of what I am saying. I had a parent

come to me with a picture that her daughter received from a student with a gun that she had put to her head, and gave her the

picture saying, we will be friends to death. Now that is a sign of

some form of gang activity. She was terrified, she secretly took that

picture and brought it to the school to share it with us to find out,

what can I do to get my child out of this situation? And when I

referred this information over to the Dallas police officer that

works on our campus, he said, it is not a criminal act, that she just

found a picture.

At that point, I personally counseled with the lady and just told

her that I feel that you need to police your own home, be more

aware of the activities that your daughter is doing, be more aware

of her friends that she hangs out with, set some boundaries, and

that. But I had no program that I could refer her to that could actually come in with their expertise and intervene at that point.

Mr. MICA. Thank you. Mr. Sessions.

Mr. SESSIONS. Ms. Flowers, as you know, I served as principal

for a day at Bryan Adams High School, and you and I, I think,

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formed a very quick relationship, mostly because I was on your

watch, your beat, I walked a mile in your sandals. I was very impressed with how you handled problems, friends and made sure

that people understood that you were doing your job.

My question to you this morning is, we have heard a lot of testimony here today of some people who said that police officers were

there to do their job, and that is why people did not want to come

in contact with them. Do you find—in other words, Mr. Bowen stated that you do not really want to give it to a police officer because

they might do something with it.

When I was in high school, I felt like—and I came from a different family, my father was the U.S. Attorney in the Western District of Texas at the time, in San Antonio. I felt like that students

needed to turn it in, and wanted something to be done about it. I

felt like the kids, more than half the students, well more than half

the students do not want to be engaged in or see drugs in their

schools. Do you believe that your students do not want drugs in

their schools and would like something done about it?

Ms. FLOWERS. Definitely. Yes, I do. And not only that, they have

came and felt comfortable confiding in our youth action office. And

there is so many out there that want to do even more, but it is also

important that they have other options, too. And that is why I

stress the anonymous hotline, a line that they can call for those

that are not as courageous or those that are more fearful, that they

will have another outlet that they can use to get that information

to our office or wherever it is needed in order for them to follow

through and investigate on the drugs that are being brought into

our schools.

Mr. SESSIONS. Do you feel like, as the front-line officer—— Ms. FLOWERS. Definitely.

Mr. SESSIONS [continuing]. That you, as the front-line officer, do

you feel like that if some child, student brings something to you,

that you can do something about it? That the process above you— not below you but above you—understands what it is going to do,

including another police officer, including your principal, that they

understand the seriousness, and does it work?

Ms. FLOWERS. Yes, it works very well. It is very effective. It

works.

Mr. SESSIONS. Well, I might say that I have seen you in action

when I think other people might have backed off. You stuck to a

procedure, you stuck to a process and you believe in what you are

doing. That is why I asked you to be here today, because I believe

that you are not only the role model we need, but the example. And

I will tell you that, one thing that I will take from this is that I

recognize we need to work with our State legislators and also other

law enforcement officers, to get us to have a process where you can

take information and do something about it, because I think the

students are willing, as you have suggested here today, and the

testimony, to be a part of what they are doing. Mr. Manning, I believe, has indicated the same thing. And I believe Ms. Mitchell understands that if we can work in our schools when students are

there, and work effectively, that we can do something about it.

I yield back my time, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Mr. MICA. Thank you, Mr. Sessions. I will recognize Mr. Souder.

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Mr. SOUDER. Ms. Mitchell, we heard in the first panel from Gary

Westphal, and we have heard about the number of programs. Are

you the same youth services that he was talking about?

Ms. MITCHELL. Yes.

Mr. SOUDER. OK, are you a different division in intervention?

Like you are not involved in the Slama-Bama-Jama?

Ms. MITCHELL. Right. I am not under the police department, but

under the Parks and Recreation Department. But in conjunction

with that, I serve as the staff advisor to Mesquite Youth Services,

Inc.

Mr. SOUDER. So Youth Services has a series of different types of

programs?

Ms. MITCHELL. Yes. And we work very closely, you know, with

the schools. Someone earlier, I think Chairman Mica asked me

about funding. And the school district has been very forthcoming

in helping us to sponsor our programs as needed. And so we really

have enjoyed community support with donations. We have service

organizations that have raised funding for my first-year salary

when I came aboard in 1991, that also purchased a van for Youth

Services to help us with our programs. So again, we have really enjoyed a lot of community support, when it comes to helping us keep

our programs going, and keeping that development there.

Mr. SOUDER. Mr. Manning, you said that you were one of the two

students you described in the beginning of your testimony. And

that you found Christ. Did somebody talk to you, did it come out

of your own experience? Was it through your family?

Mr. MANNING. I grew up in a Christian family, and I mean, my

parents were great Christians, and they raised me in the church.

And from day 1 I was in the church. And I knew who God was,

but I did not really know him. I did not have the relationship with

him. I mean, I kind of believed in him, but Satan also believes in

God, so I mean, that is not something you can go on.

But it as at that point in my life, whenever I hit rock bottom,

that there was nowhere else to go, that God put me flat on my face,

and then I realized what a relationship meant with Him. And that

is whenever I had a personal relationship with Him, and really

knew Him. And it totally changed my life from then on.

Mr. SOUDER. Had you gotten involved with other kids?

Mr. MANNING. Yeah, I was in athletics, and I was in swimming.

And I was decent in swimming, I was on the State level, and I hurt

my shoulder. And you know, after that I really had nothing to do.

And you know, free time after school or whatever, and I got in on

the wrong crowd. And it just went from there, started snowballing

from there.

Mr. SOUDER. I know this is personal, but as a dad with three

kids, and I struggle with the same question with my kids, and we

have heard testimony in multiple hearings about the difficulties of

parents. Do you think your parents suspected that? I mean, I have

a son who is about to turn 21, you know, he likes rock music, and

we are a strongly Christian family. And as a parent, it is hard to

know when to ask what questions. Do you want to be too

judgmental? If you come down too hard, will they back away even

farther? What would you have done differently if you were your

dad?

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Mr. MANNING. I certainly hope I am never in that situation.

Mr. SOUDER. But you probably will be.

Mr. MANNING. I know that. I know that.

I do not know. I mean, my parents were always there for me and

they were always loving on me. I think they realized that there

was something going on there. They did not know exactly what it

was. I guess they were kind of trusting me to tell them, and I really never got around to it. And I finally came to a point in my life

when I hit rock bottom, and that is when I really found out about

it. So I mean—— Mr. SOUDER. That is when the roots were planted correctly. The

fear that you have as a parent is that, you know, an accident or

something will happen before you come off the rock bottom. And

that is our difficulty.

I want to ask you one question. This is not intended to be a trick

question, it is a straight-forward question.

Mr. MANNING. OK.

Mr. SOUDER. If there was a football team that was made up of

a majority of Black Muslims, and they went out on the field and

wanted to have a prayer to Allah, would you favor that?

Mr. MANNING. I mean, that is their freedom right there.

Mr. SOUDER. Because that is the fundamental question we face

in the religious liberty. We have to be consistent if we are going

to allow it. And need to be student-led. We filed a brief, a number

of us in Congress, in support of the Texas appeal. If they get a favorable appeal, it will probably be that it has to be student led. The

danger here is that then it is majority vote, to some degree. I

mean, I fundamentally, completely agree that we have replaced

Christianity and the Judeo-Christian principles with a secular humanism that is not in science. It is in philosophy, it is in sociology,

and we are wrestling with it. But we are also walking an interesting line here with the diversity in our country, that we have to be

prepared to defend religious liberty if we are going to advocate it.

Mr. MANNING. Actually, I have a pretty good friend of mine, he

is Muslim, and we discuss it all the time, and I have tried to convert him a few times. But at our graduation, a girl was told what

prayer she could say. She is a Christian, and I have been to her

church a few times. She wrote out a prayer and let me read it. I

was like, that is great, that is awesome. And then she turned it in

to our principal, and he rewrote it and told her what she could say.

She showed me that, and said, well, I am not going to say it. It

is my freedom, you know, to say my own prayer. And so she went

and said that prayer, the prayer that she prepared, and she said

Jesus’ name, and that is the only name nowadays that offends people.

I talked to my friend that was Muslim, and he was like, it did

not offend me at all, because that is—I understand your religion

because you talk to me so much about it. And I know my beliefs,

and it did not offend me at all. I was glad that she got to pray the

way she felt like she needed to pray.

I guess it is more tolerance to other religions, I do not know how

that would work. If they want to pray their prayer and let us pray

our prayer, that is great. Just allow us to do that, allow us to have

that free assembly of what we need.

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Mr. SOUDER. Well, thanks for your willingness to speak out and

to have the courage to do that.

Ms. Flowers, I have a question for you as well. We have a hotline

in my district, and a lot of schools have it as well, it is anonymous.

It still gets called snitch line. But it is better, because at least you

have some means, and particularly in the guns area. It was real

interesting, it was a snitch line until Columbine, and then all of

a sudden the kids decided that maybe it was a help line. And that

changed a lot of attitudes. We need that same thing to happen in

guns.

But as a practical matter, one of the problems that we get into

here is the kids often know a lot of things that you do not or the

parents do not about other kids. They also know a whole bunch of

things are not true because they traffic in gossip and rumor. How

do we sort this through and how do you deal with that type of

question? Because I hear—sometimes if you hear your kids talk, 80

percent of the kids are doing something as opposed to—in fact, they

come home, and you think everybody’s got a brand-new car, can be

out until 3 a.m., and that soon as you come down on them, they

come up with a whole bunch of other people, some of which is true.

And then we have a novelty problem that we ran into when we

tried a law of parent accountability. And it happened in Los Angeles on gang accountability. And as I talked to a lot of single moms

trying to raise their kids, one of the things that they said that their

kids were doing is that, when the parents practiced discipline on

them, and we had a parent accountability, they turned their parents in with false charges. And that intimidated the parents from

enforcement.

What do you with the really hard-core types who can turn an

anonymous tip situation around on us? Have you thought that

through? Have you run into that with any of the kids at school?

Ms. FLOWERS. Well, we have a file on their disciplinary problems,

and on character. I mean, you have to judge the person that is giving you the information, and thoroughly investigate it. And basically that is how we really deal with our students that are considered, ‘‘informants.’’ And just judge by their character and their own

life, if this is really going to be credible information. But we follow

through on every report. I mean, I cannot say, no. And most of the

time, it is some legitimate information that you can use bits and

pieces. But I do not turn away a report.

Mr. SOUDER. So you have not seen, like, one gang trying to get

another gang in trouble, necessarily?

Ms. FLOWERS. No, I have not.

Mr. SOUDER. Even in Colombia, when we took down the Medallion Cartel, it was because the Calle Cartel decided they wanted to

eliminate them. I mean, we have our own DEA and CIA cannot figure out half the time whether their guys are two-way or one-way.

But it is interesting, as we start to get into the anonymous tip lines

at school, how we are going to address those questions.

But thank you all for your time and willingness to be involved.

Mr. MICA. Well, I want to again thank the three panelists that

we had here, for your participation, also for the insight into your

local programs and your activities with the school that you police,

Bryan Adams High School. And also thank Mr. Manning for his

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recommendations and personal commitment that he has made in

coming forward today and providing the subcommittee, again, with

his experience.

Mr. Souder had moved that the record be open for a period of 2

weeks, so if anyone has additional information, testimony they

would like to be made part of this record, feel free to submit it to

the subcommittee through the Chair or through Mr. Sessions.

I do want to take a moment to thank Mr. Sessions, not only for

his invitation to be here and learn from this local experience and

from the individuals involved in education, drug prevention, law

enforcement in his community today, but also for his past great assistance and leadership in the Congress in this most difficult problem area that we are facing. It is probably one of our greatest national challenges. I thank him again for having us in his community and for the opportunity to work with him in trying to resolve

some of these problems.

There being no further business then to come before the subcommittee, I declare this meeting adjourned.

[Whereupon, at 1:09 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

[Additional information submitted for the hearing record follows:]

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