### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1**  **UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE**  **+ + + + + COMMERCIAL HVAC, WATER HEATING AND**  **REFRIGERATION EQUIPMENT CERTIFICATION WORKING GROUP MEETING** 

**+ + + + + WEDNESDAY**  **SEPTEMBER 11, 2013 + + + + +**  **The Working Group met in the Forrestal Building, Room GH-019, 1000**  **Independence Avenue, SW, Washington, D.C., at 8:30 a.m., Neil Eisner, Facilitator,**  **presiding.**

**PRESENT NEIL EISNER, Facilitator**  **KARIM AMRANE, AHRI VIKTOR ANDERSON, Structural Concepts**  **TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice JEFF BAUMAN, National Refrigeration and Air**  **Conditioning MARY DANE, Traulsen**  **PAUL DOPPEL, Mitsubishi Electric BRIAN FERRIOL, Underwriters Laboratories**  **MARK FLY, AAON GEOFFREY HALLEY, ABMA**  **CHARLES HON, True Manufacturing JILL HOOTMAN, Trane**  **RALPH HUDNALL, AHAM**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2**  **JOHN HURST, Lennox TOM JOHNSON, Daikin McQuay**  **JEFF KLEISS, Lochinvar MICHAEL KOJAK, Underwriters Laboratories**  **KAREN MEYERS, Rheem Manufacturing PETE MOLVIE, Cleaver-Brooks**  **HARVEY SACHS, ACEEE RON SHEBIK, Hussmann Corporation** * **FRANK STANONIK, AHRI PHILLIP STEPHENS, HTP, Inc.**  **RUSTY THARP, Goodman Manufacturing BILL TRITSIS, AHRI** 

**BOB WHITWELL, Carrier***

**ALSO PRESENT**

**ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, U.S. Department of Energy LAURA BARHYDT, U.S. Department of Energy**  **BRENDA EDWARDS, U.S. Department of Energy**

**JEREMIAH FREEMAN COLLIN WEBER, Navigant** 

***Present via teleconference**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3** 

**TABLE OF CONTENTS**

**ITEM PAGE**

**Opening Remarks 4**

**Enforcement Issues 6 Language Changes 85**  **Verification 90 CRE 97**  **Working Group/Sub-Group Discussion 185**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  

### 2 **8:30 a.m.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: All right, if we** 

### 4 **could get started.** 

### 5 **A bunch of things were raised in** 

### 6 **between meetings. One was some comments by** 

### 7 **Harvey, with respect to the report that was** 

### 8 **submitted to ASRAC, and I think Harvey is not** 

### 9 **here, so maybe we'll put that off until he** 

### 10 **gets here. I assume he's coming, but if not,** 

### 11 **we can -- I know some of you responded to it.** 

### 12 **You were familiar with it. Nobody seemed --** 

### 13 **nobody who responded to it, seemed to have a** 

### 14 **problem.** 

### 15 **The other thing was, when we ended** 

### 16 **the last meeting, we were talking about some** 

### 17 **enforcement issues, and there are some people** 

### 18 **who pointed out that we had not yet addressed** 

### 19 **those issues at the very first meeting we** 

### 20 **held, when we talked about ground rules, and** 

### 21 **we put that on the list of issues.** 

### 22 **So, I'd like to start off by**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5**  **1 having someone who is familiar with the**  

### 2 **concern on the part of industry or advocacy** 

### 3 **groups or whatever, that if you could state** 

### 4 **what your concern is and then we could ask DOE** 

### 5 **to address them.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay, and if** 

### 7 **everybody can speak up. We have some** 

### 8 **microphones on the table, but it's probably** 

### 9 **not going to get any of the people in the** 

### 10 **back, unless you really speak up loud.** 

### 11 **MR. THARP: And for the people on** 

### 12 **the phone too.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: And also for the** 

### 14 **people on the phone.** 

### 15 **PARTICIPANT: We can talk loud.** 

### 16 **Is that okay?** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: Yes.** 

### 18 **PARTICIPANT: Okay, thank you.** 

### 19 **MR. KLEISS: Would it be fair to** 

### 20 **start, when we're talking about enforcement,** 

### 21 **to maybe have DOE start with what they are** 

### 22 **already doing, or what they will be doing, as**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1 far as enforcement?**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: That is so broad. I** 

### 3 **mean, I honestly -- I have no idea what your** 

### 4 **issues or concerns are.** 

### 5 **So, I mean, I can talk for hours** 

### 6 **and days about enforcement. It would help if** 

### 7 **you give me some context for what it is that** 

### 8 **you want to hear about.** 

### 9 **MR. AMRANE: Maybe I can start,** 

### 10 **just going with AHRI.** 

### 11 **I think it was much of -- much of** 

### 12 **the concern, I think, was more like for DOE or** 

### 13 **for us, to review what is in here.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. AMRANE: Pretty much a** 

### 16 **statistical whatever, the process by which DOE** 

### 17 **goes about to enforcement, and those** 

### 18 **requirements were put in place, not for** 

### 19 **commercial product, but they were put in place** 

### 20 **for residential product initially, or** 

### 21 **something of that nature, no?** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: No.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 MR. AMRANE: But I don't believe**  

### 2 **it's a statistical, you know, formulas, where** 

### 3 **they were necessarily developed for the** 

### 4 **commercial product in the first place.** 

### 5 **Okay, so, I think --** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: So, just to -- so,** 

### 7 **just on that point.** 

### 8 **The statistics were developed in** 

### 9 **Part 431 back in the 90's, as part of a** 

### 10 **rulemaking for commercial equipment.** 

### 11 **We moved them in 2011, to Part** 

### 12 **429, but we didn't change any of those** 

### 13 **statistics. Those were the old statistics.** 

### 14 **MR. AMRANE: I understand, and so,** 

### 15 **it's more for to -- I guess, to revisit this** 

### 16 **and maybe not -- maybe it's not part of this** 

### 17 **working group, but it's an action item for** 

### 18 **DOE, to go back and to look at this, and see** 

### 19 **whether or not really, there is some science** 

### 20 **behind those numbers.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: So, are the** 

### 22 **statistics the only concern?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1 MR. THARP: This is what I'm --**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: Or is it --** 

### 3 **MR. AMRANE: But that also is true** 

### 4 **with the issues. Part of it, on the second** 

### 5 **product, which are different from residential** 

### 6 **than commercial --** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: Right.** 

### 8 **MR. AMRANE: -- and that also, I** 

### 9 **think is an issue.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: Right.** 

### 11 **MR. AMRANE: And hopefully that** 

### 12 **will be addressed, as well. I don't know.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: So, I will say that** 

### 14 **in the 2011 rulemaking, we asked industry for** 

### 15 **data to help us support changing those** 

### 16 **statistics, and we got no comment at all.** 

### 17 **We would welcome the opportunity** 

### 18 **to revisit those, but we are going to have to** 

### 19 **have significant data to back up the change to** 

### 20 **those statistics.** 

### 21 **MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharp** 

### 22 **with Goodman.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1 I think, you know, I think that**  

### 2 **industry is -- our relationship is different** 

### 3 **now than it was in 2011, and things are --** 

### 4 **this type of arrangement is a very good** 

### 5 **arrangement, and I think we will be able to** 

### 6 **work more to of course, getting something** 

### 7 **together.** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: So, I would say,** 

### 9 **back to you, that the Department is very** 

### 10 **willing to revisit that issue, but we're going** 

### 11 **to have to have a lot of data, so that we --** 

### 12 **MS. MEYERS: So, this is Karen** 

### 13 **Meyers. What kind of data are you looking** 

### 14 **for?** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: So, the whole** 

### 16 **premise behind the statistics, there are two** 

### 17 **kinds of statistics. There are certification** 

### 18 **statistics and there are enforcement** 

### 19 **statistics.** 

### 20 **MS. MEYERS: Okay.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: The certification** 

### 22 **statistics force the manufacturer to be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 conservative in their rating, basically over**  

### 2 **rate, based on your test data. That way it** 

### 3 **ensures consumers get at least as good of as** 

### 4 **what you have represented to them.** 

### 5 **Enforcement is the reverse. It** 

### 6 **gives all of the benefit of the doubt to the** 

### 7 **manufacturer and makes it harder for us to** 

### 8 **find a product non-compliant.** 

### 9 **So, the statistics are weighed,** 

### 10 **depending on whether it's an up front** 

### 11 **certification statistic or whether it's an** 

### 12 **after-the-fact enforcement statistic.** 

### 13 **But so, as a result of that, the** 

### 14 **numbers aren't the same. The confidence** 

### 15 **intervals aren't the same. The confidence** 

### 16 **intervals are not the same for all different** 

### 17 **products within the certification statistics.** 

### 18 **They are for enforcement.** 

### 19 **That is all things that we could** 

### 20 **look at. What the appropriate confidence** 

### 21 **intervals should be is where the data really** 

### 22 **comes in. How much variability is there, both**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 within a lab, within the test procedure**  

### 2 **itself, and between test procedures, I mean,** 

### 3 **between labs.** 

### 4 **The statistics are currently** 

### 5 **designed so that they take both of those** 

### 6 **factors into account. There is a confidence** 

### 7 **interval and then there is a separate deviser,** 

### 8 **and so, all of that is designed to take that** 

### 9 **variability into account.** 

### 10 **If you don't think the numbers are** 

### 11 **right, we're going to have to have data to** 

### 12 **explain why those numbers need to be changed.** 

### 13 **MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with** 

### 14 **ABMA. I am wondering if we need several** 

### 15 **levels, depending on the product, if you start** 

### 16 **with residential, then small commercial and** 

### 17 **then the larger commercial units, there may be** 

### 18 **different sets of statistics for --** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, so for --** 

### 20 **MR. HALLEY: -- each level.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: For certification** 

### 22 **statistics, it's product specific.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 MR. HALLEY: Yes.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: For enforcement** 

### 3 **statistics, there are two sets.** 

### 4 **There are residential and then** 

### 5 **there are small volume, which is most** 

### 6 **commercial equipment, but there is also a** 

### 7 **provision in there that allows us to apply it** 

### 8 **even for consumer products, where it's a** 

### 9 **built-to-order very low volume product.** 

### 10 **So, there are differences in the** 

### 11 **enforcement statistics, depending on how many** 

### 12 **units are generally produced.** 

### 13 **MR. TRITSIS: Laura? Bill Tritsis** 

### 14 **with AHRI.** 

### 15 **Have you analyzed the data that** 

### 16 **you already have, based on the testing that** 

### 17 **you've conducted?** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 19 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 20 **MR. TRITSIS: Yes?** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 22 **MR. TRITSIS: And can you share**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 with us, some of what your findings are?**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: What would you** 

### 3 **like to know?** 

### 4 **MR. TRITSIS: You know, some of** 

### 5 **the questions that were brought up, that Laura** 

### 6 **just mentioned, regarding of the statistical** 

### 7 **differences between enforcement and** 

### 8 **certification, and which have you found, as** 

### 9 **you compare some of the actual testing that** 

### 10 **has happened, and you know, the manufacturer's** 

### 11 **data that has been provided to you with these** 

### 12 **enforcement cases.** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Sharing aside,** 

### 14 **I'll speak on some generalities and then we'll** 

### 15 **see what Laura says, as she stares at me very** 

### 16 **nervously.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: No, I'm not nervous.** 

### 18 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, one of the** 

### 19 **things though, we don't see a lot of the data** 

### 20 **behind the certifications. I mean, we do when** 

### 21 **Laura asks for it, and we ask for it from the** 

### 22 **manufacturers.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 So, the test data that**  

### 2 **manufacturers are doing themselves, whether it** 

### 3 **be in their own labs or at third party labs of** 

### 4 **their choosing, we don't see a whole lot of** 

### 5 **that.** 

### 6 **So, for us to be able to assess** 

### 7 **the variability coming off the line or coming** 

### 8 **off of their test facilities is pretty much --** 

### 9 **you know, that is going to be pretty** 

### 10 **impossible.** 

### 11 **I think when Laura is saying we** 

### 12 **need data, I mean, that is really what the** 

### 13 **cert steps are trying to capture, because we** 

### 14 **allow you guys the discretion to choose where** 

### 15 **you're testing, what units you're testing, who** 

### 16 **is running the test. I mean, that is all data** 

### 17 **you have control over.** 

### 18 **So, the cert data, you know, the** 

### 19 **cert starts are really trying to capture the** 

### 20 **variability when you guys are running the** 

### 21 **tests yourselves.** 

### 22 **So, it's really manufacturer line**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 variability. It's the tests in your own lab**  

### 2 **variability. It's test procedure variability,** 

### 3 **as well as test technician. But that's all** 

### 4 **within your control.** 

### 5 **Obviously, there are going to be** 

### 6 **sources of variability, you know, inherent in** 

### 7 **testing itself and inherent in products** 

### 8 **themselves and inherent in the test procedure,** 

### 9 **but you can minimize that as much as possible,** 

### 10 **because that is something you have control** 

### 11 **over.** 

### 12 **So, I think when Laura says we** 

### 13 **need data to be able to change those, that is** 

### 14 **not something that DOE easily has access to,** 

### 15 **and that is something that is going to be very** 

### 16 **different from manufacturer to manufacturer,** 

### 17 **depending on the risk decisions they make. At** 

### 18 **least that's my opinion of it.** 

### 19 **Now, that being said, when we** 

### 20 **transition to enforcement, one of the reasons** 

### 21 **we have different stats, and there could be** 

### 22 **some arguments about whether we should or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 whether we shouldn't, they are confusing to**  

### 2 **have them different. But one of the reason we** 

### 3 **have different sets is because the enforcement** 

### 4 **stats really do make it harder for DOE to find** 

### 5 **a product non-compliant.** 

### 6 **So, and a lot of times, if we had** 

### 7 **the same statistics that we used for** 

### 8 **certification, we would have been able to find** 

### 9 **something non-compliant. But with our** 

### 10 **existing enforcement stats we have not been** 

### 11 **able to.** 

### 12 **There are a lot of times where we** 

### 13 **have come up with a product that -- you know,** 

### 14 **we'll have the initial sample for enforcement** 

### 15 **is four. We will test four units. They will** 

### 16 **all four be below the standard, but without** 

### 17 **our -- with our current enforcement stats we** 

### 18 **cannot find that product non-compliant. In** 

### 19 **other words, it passes within the tolerance.** 

### 20 **However, if you run that sample of** 

### 21 **four back through the certification stats to** 

### 22 **get the rating, you cannot rate it, you cannot**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 certify it and you cannot distribute it in**  

### 2 **commerce.** 

### 3 **That is the stats we have today,** 

### 4 **and the reason for that was that our stats may** 

### 5 **get -- our stats for enforcement put the onus** 

### 6 **on the Department to make sure when we're** 

### 7 **saying, "Your product is a failure of our** 

### 8 **standards," that, you know, we're sure that** 

### 9 **they're -- you know, with some certainty, we** 

### 10 **are sure that it's not there.** 

### 11 **So, to your question about have we** 

### 12 **analyzed that? Yes, and I would say, you** 

### 13 **know, we don't see as much variability on the** 

### 14 **enforcement side.** 

### 15 **I mean, it depends pretty much on** 

### 16 **the specific basic model. Some of them, you** 

### 17 **know, if the unit -- I'm just going to make up** 

### 18 **numbers.** 

### 19 **If the unit is a 20, I mean, I've** 

### 20 **seen four units come out at 20, 20.05, 19.95** 

### 21 **and 20, you know, very close together. But** 

### 22 **yes, that's tested at a third-party lab. That**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 is tested in the same lab, by the same people,**  

### 2 **you know, using the DOE test procedures.** 

### 3 **And I've seen a very wide variety.** 

### 4 **So, I don't know if there is, you know -- it** 

### 5 **really is, in my opinion, basic model** 

### 6 **specific. And there is some trends, I guess,** 

### 7 **we could see, between manufacturers -- amongst** 

### 8 **-- within a given manufacturer, but I wouldn't** 

### 9 **say our sample size is large enough, you know.** 

### 10 **I could turn the question around** 

### 11 **to you guys, because you guys should have a** 

### 12 **lot more data necessarily than we do. Have** 

### 13 **you guys analyzed to see the variation, and is** 

### 14 **that data that you and your members would be** 

### 15 **willing to share and to present to DOE, if you** 

### 16 **believe that our stats should be changed?** 

### 17 **MR. ANDERSON: Viktor Anderson,** 

### 18 **Structural Concepts. We test -- we make air** 

### 19 **screen cases, refrigerator cases. This last** 

### 20 **summer, we pulled six-foot tall air screen,** 

### 21 **three of them out of production, put them in** 

### 22 **our test labs, exact same spot, exact same**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 data acquisition system.**  

### 2 **We had a 13 percent variance** 

### 3 **between models. I could share -- I'm more** 

### 4 **than willing to share that information, but** 

### 5 **that is not even within different labs.** 

### 6 **That's within the same area, because you put** 

### 7 **an air screen in a lab, you get air flow** 

### 8 **different from one point to the other on an** 

### 9 **air screen, potentially.** 

### 10 **MS. ARMSTRONG: DOE's position on** 

### 11 **that is we've all -- we have testing for a** 

### 12 **reasons. We acknowledge that there is** 

### 13 **variability present. Now, what they should be** 

### 14 **has always been a point of discussion, you** 

### 15 **know.** 

### 16 **We can make the -- it goes hand** 

### 17 **in-hand, right, with the -- we can change the** 

### 18 **tolerances, they go with the standard levels,** 

### 19 **you know. They all go the same.** 

### 20 **So, I mean, to say that we need to** 

### 21 **change our tolerances to 20 percent, I am not** 

### 22 **saying there is not merit there, but perhaps,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 that also gets to, we need to tighten the**  

### 2 **individual tolerances in the test procedure.** 

### 3 **I mean, there is a couple of** 

### 4 **different ways we could do this, and probably** 

### 5 **a combination of a lot of things are needed.** 

### 6 **You know, we're trying in each** 

### 7 **test procedure we're making to tighten the** 

### 8 **test procedure as much as possible where there** 

### 9 **are ambiguities, where there are test** 

### 10 **tolerances that may be too large without, you** 

### 11 **know, completely revamping the way you guys do** 

### 12 **testing and imposing unnecessary burden.** 

### 13 **MR. SACHS: Ashley?** 

### 14 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 15 **MR. SACHS: Hi, this is Harvey.** 

### 16 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I can't see you.** 

### 17 **You're behind me.** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: Well, you're very** 

### 19 **lucky today.** 

### 20 **(Laughter.)** 

### 21 **MR. SACHS: I have a question** 

### 22 **related to the previous one on the air**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 screens. My sense is that we've pretty well**  

### 2 **moved to one-sided tolerance spans for** 

### 3 **certification, and I assume for verification,** 

### 4 **as well.** 

### 5 **So, if you're not going to** 

### 6 **penalize -- be penalized for being too** 

### 7 **efficient, it seems to me that you have an** 

### 8 **internal issue of how much of a safety factor,** 

### 9 **beyond the federal minimum, you want to do.** 

### 10 **It seems to me that if there is** 

### 11 **only a one-sided tolerance, it's a business** 

### 12 **and engineering decision on your part on what** 

### 13 **your target is to assure that you've got** 

### 14 **tolerance.** 

### 15 **Nobody is going to penalize you** 

### 16 **for being too efficient, and that would seem** 

### 17 **to be the most favorable way to proceed in** 

### 18 **terms of simplification and putting the** 

### 19 **responsibility where it ought to be.** 

### 20 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, back** 

### 21 **to the original question. So, Laura's point** 

### 22 **is the Department is open to changing the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 statistics. A lot of the questions that I get**  

### 2 **on a regular basis are just coming from, "I** 

### 3 **don't understand the statistics," and don't** 

### 4 **get me wrong, it took me a lot of time to get** 

### 5 **up to speed, as well.** 

### 6 **But they change because it's a** 

### 7 **confidence limit. So, it's not like a single** 

### 8 **number across the board. So, it's harder to** 

### 9 **implement because each -- depending on the** 

### 10 **variation within the sample, they change. The** 

### 11 **number changes, the target changes, period.** 

### 12 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim from** 

### 13 **AHRI. I assume that those equations are in** 

### 14 **place because somebody must have done a study** 

### 15 **back then.** 

### 16 **MS. ARMSTRONG: We have a study** 

### 17 **that was done a long time ago by NIST. It was** 

### 18 **a big statistical study.** 

### 19 **MR. AMRANE: Can you share it?** 

### 20 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, it's on -- I** 

### 21 **don't know if it's on our website. At one** 

### 22 **point in time, it was on our website.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 MR. AMRANE: Okay.**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: When you look at the** 

### 4 **website, I'm not sure where it went to.** 

### 5 **MR. AMRANE: It would be good for** 

### 6 **us to look at that.** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It's older, and I** 

### 8 **know we have a hard copy. I don't know if we** 

### 9 **have a PDF. We can get it in a PDF format at** 

### 10 **some point, but --** 

### 11 **MR. THARP: Is that the one from** 

### 12 **like 1970 or --** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, it's older.** 

### 14 **(Laughter.)** 

### 15 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 16 **MR. SACHS: The basic statistical** 

### 17 **methods seem to be very similar today.** 

### 18 **MR. AMRANE: The methods are the** 

### 19 **same, but things are different.** 

### 20 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I mean, and** 

### 21 **at that point in time, I think -- you know, I** 

### 22 **read at lot and back then, to get to some of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 the -- the way I understand what happened, and**  

### 2 **obviously, I was not around back then, or at** 

### 3 **least working at the Department.** 

### 4 **(Laughter.)** 

### 5 **MS. ARMSTRONG: The way I** 

### 6 **understood what happened was that NIST came up** 

### 7 **with a lot of statistical, you know, analysis** 

### 8 **and based on theoretical methods, and then** 

### 9 **manufacturers shared with them, or some** 

### 10 **manufacturers shared with them, their** 

### 11 **variability that they were seeing, whether it** 

### 12 **be scrubbed data or that -- you know, they** 

### 13 **were able to analyze some actual data about** 

### 14 **variability off the line, variability off of -** 

### 15 **- from the test procedures themselves,** 

### 16 **variability off the instrumentation.** 

### 17 **So, you know, and conduct some** 

### 18 **round robins, and DOE has done some round** 

### 19 **robins for select products, none for** 

### 20 **commercial. That is something we could also** 

### 21 **work on initiating to try to help pull all** 

### 22 **this together.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 But it's going to take, you know,**  

### 2 **an effort by everyone, honestly, to get to** 

### 3 **numbers that we're all comfortable with.** 

### 4 **MR. AMRANE: And that is my point.** 

### 5 **This is Karim with AHRI. I mean, this analysis** 

### 6 **that you're referring to, it was 1976. At** 

### 7 **that time, commercial products were not even** 

### 8 **regulated by DOE.** 

### 9 **So, obviously, the data was not** 

### 10 **based on commercial products, was mostly based** 

### 11 **on the residential mass-produced products.** 

### 12 **So, I think that brings up a valid** 

### 13 **point. I think we should, and you are right,** 

### 14 **I agree with you, there should be an effort** 

### 15 **from both DOE and industry, but maybe it's not** 

### 16 **for this group to resolve. I don't think we** 

### 17 **can probably do it, you know, within this** 

### 18 **group right now.** 

### 19 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.** 

### 20 **MR. AMRANE: You know, but it's** 

### 21 **something that DOE is open to having the** 

### 22 **discussion at some point, I think that would**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 be good.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: Absolutely.** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I will say, so,** 

### 4 **one thing, we get this comment a lot, you see** 

### 5 **Ralph over there from AHAM, but we get this** 

### 6 **from all across industry-wide, and one of the** 

### 7 **things, it might be interesting. I don't know** 

### 8 **exactly a whole lot about it, but I know NEMA** 

### 9 **undertook an effort rather recently, for some** 

### 10 **of their lighting products, to try to capture** 

### 11 **the variability within -- almost like the cert** 

### 12 **variability.** 

### 13 **It was manufacturing variability** 

### 14 **as well as test variability within a** 

### 15 **manufacturer's facility that they were seeing** 

### 16 **for certain types of lighting products, and** 

### 17 **they published a report on it. So, it might be** 

### 18 **something also worth looking at.** 

### 19 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and** 

### 20 **Karim and Bill, I think a couple of meetings** 

### 21 **ago you all stated that the 20 percent** 

### 22 **guideline that your sections have generally**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 adopted, with exceptions, were based on sort**  

### 2 **of an empirical convergence of what works.** 

### 3 **And if there is similar analytical** 

### 4 **work underlying that to what is being** 

### 5 **requested by the Department, it sure would be** 

### 6 **helpful in this conversion.** 

### 7 **MR. TRITSIS: Absolutely it would,** 

### 8 **we agree with that, Harvey, particularly as --** 

### 9 **you know, based on what we heard. We need to** 

### 10 **revisit these analyses that have been done in** 

### 11 **the past, particularly now, as we discuss** 

### 12 **certification of commercial products,** 

### 13 **verification. We have enforcement.** 

### 14 **You know, we need to see under** 

### 15 **what basis we're going to judge the** 

### 16 **performance of these products, given these** 

### 17 **unknowns, and before we even delve too far.** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: Wonderful.** 

### 19 **MR. TRITSIS: Okay, I agree with** 

### 20 **you.** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: Does anybody disagree** 

### 22 **with the idea that this need not be resolved**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 in this group as part of this process, that**  

### 2 **DOE will take some action to get public** 

### 3 **participation and a review of this set of** 

### 4 **enforcement statistics? Because there was** 

### 5 **some question raised at the last meeting as to** 

### 6 **whether any amendments had to be made to** 

### 7 **existing rules. So, no one disagrees?** 

### 8 **MS. MEYERS: Well, I don't know** 

### 9 **that I'm quite ready to agree with that yet.** 

### 10 **You know, I think it's a very important topic** 

### 11 **that, you know, when we're talking about, you** 

### 12 **know, certification and AEDMs, that we** 

### 13 **understand the enforcement side of that, and** 

### 14 **no, I just -- I don't know. I mean, I guess** 

### 15 **I'll --** 

### 16 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think** 

### 17 **the answer from the Department's perspective** 

### 18 **is, right now, the enforcement stats are what** 

### 19 **they are.** 

### 20 **But what you're hearing from us is** 

### 21 **a general willingness and openness to sit down** 

### 22 **and work through them, and open to change**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 them.**  

### 2 **But the ones on the books now are** 

### 3 **the ones that we are going to use until such** 

### 4 **a point where we can come to an agreement and** 

### 5 **a decision about what should be changed. And** 

### 6 **I don't that is going to be something we can** 

### 7 **do soon. But that's not to say we're not** 

### 8 **willing to start working on it soon.** 

### 9 **MS. MEYERS: Well, I think it's** 

### 10 **very important that the working group report** 

### 11 **that to ASRAC, express some concern about the** 

### 12 **current enforcement statistics, as they apply** 

### 13 **to commercial products, and that there is a** 

### 14 **significant need for an immediate review of** 

### 15 **how the enforcement statistics apply to** 

### 16 **commercial products.** 

### 17 **I mean, that is, I think, what I** 

### 18 **would like to see happen because, you know, to** 

### 19 **Karim's point, those were set back before** 

### 20 **commercial products were even regulated, so,** 

### 21 **do they even apply? I don't know the answer.** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: I mean, granted,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1 they were done a long time ago. These regs**  

### 2 **date back -- I wish I had my old book -- I** 

### 3 **believe to the `90s.** 

### 4 **So, but they are -- by design,** 

### 5 **they are weighed in favor of the manufacturer,** 

### 6 **and it is a fact that the Department has not** 

### 7 **found products non-compliant because of those** 

### 8 **stats --** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: In a lot of cases.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: -- in a lot of** 

### 11 **cases. So, I mean, I don't think** 

### 12 **manufacturers need to feel like they are at** 

### 13 **significant risk as a result of the current** 

### 14 **stats.** 

### 15 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,** 

### 16 **Lochinvar. We do want a balance. We do want** 

### 17 **DOE to be able to find the people that are bad** 

### 18 **players. We also don't want to be unfairly** 

### 19 **judged negatively.** 

### 20 **The other thing is, if you're** 

### 21 **talking about testing samples of four** 

### 22 **appliances, I mean, that is just not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 financially realistic for you in a lot of**  

### 2 **cases.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: Right, and the regs** 

### 4 **actually allow smaller sample sizes.** 

### 5 **MR. KLEISS: Right.** 

### 6 **MS. ARMSTRONG: They do now.** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, for** 

### 8 **commercial, they do.** 

### 9 **MR. KLEISS: Okay.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: So, I mean, it's not** 

### 11 **that there has to be four. The number is to** 

### 12 **protect you.** 

### 13 **MR. KLEISS: Right.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: So, I mean, if a** 

### 15 **manufacturer wants to say, "I'll test one and** 

### 16 **I'll go with that," they can do that. We've** 

### 17 **offered.** 

### 18 **MS. ARMSTRONG: We've never had** 

### 19 **that happen, I don't think. I'm not going to** 

### 20 **say never, but I'm 99 percent sure that has** 

### 21 **never happened. Most people have elected** 

### 22 **their full sample size when seeing the results**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 of one.**  

### 2 **The way the stats work out, a** 

### 3 **sample size of one does not necessarily work** 

### 4 **out in your favor as much as a sample size of** 

### 5 **four.** 

### 6 **MR. KLEISS: Right.** 

### 7 **MS. HOOTMAN: But you would still** 

### 8 **have to purchase all four, right?** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: You would have to** 

### 10 **-- we don't --** 

### 11 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: We pay for the** 

### 13 **testing.** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: Any other comments?** 

### 15 **So, would everybody like to see a few** 

### 16 **sentences in the next report to ASRAC, that** 

### 17 **DOE will want to -- the group recommends that** 

### 18 **DOE follow up to review the statistical -- the** 

### 19 **use of the statistical data in the enforcement** 

### 20 **proceedings?** 

### 21 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. I** 

### 22 **think it goes -- it has to go beyond just**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 enforcement. I think it also has to be the**  

### 2 **certification model. I think statistics** 

### 3 **should look at that.** 

### 4 **MR. TRITSIS: And not necessarily** 

### 5 **only statistical data, it could be overall** 

### 6 **uncertainty that is involved in measuring the** 

### 7 **performance of the product.** 

### 8 **Because, Laura, in my opinion, you** 

### 9 **know, there is a significant reason that the** 

### 10 **manufacturer is facing, depending on where he** 

### 11 **tests the product, who tests the product and** 

### 12 **how the product is set up, and putting aside** 

### 13 **all of the other variances that Ashley brought** 

### 14 **up.** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I mean, what** 

### 16 **we're trying to do -- sorry, Laura.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, I guess,** 

### 18 **again, I want to emphasize that there have not** 

### 19 **been a lot of DOE actions finding non** 

### 20 **compliant commercial products.** 

### 21 **I would attribute a lot of that to** 

### 22 **the statistics. I mean, it's not that we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1 don't test products below the standard. And**  

### 2 **so, it's -- the statistics really are set up** 

### 3 **right now in a way that makes it very** 

### 4 **difficult for the Department to find products** 

### 5 **non-compliant.** 

### 6 **So, I don't think it's -- I** 

### 7 **understand that you have a lot of concern** 

### 8 **about when I test in my lab and when DOE tests** 

### 9 **in their lab the result is not going to come** 

### 10 **out the same, but the reality is that our** 

### 11 **experience has shown that that variability is** 

### 12 **still within the margin of error on the** 

### 13 **enforcement stats.** 

### 14 **MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman** 

### 15 **Manufacturing.** 

### 16 **I want to also reiterate, you** 

### 17 **know, Laura actually made the comment that you** 

### 18 **can test products and they're all below the** 

### 19 **standard and not find it non-compliant.** 

### 20 **The reality is also true on the** 

### 21 **flip side, that you can have four tests where** 

### 22 **everything is above the standard and it's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 still non-determinate, at least from my**  

### 2 **calculations. I'll double-check this. But it** 

### 3 **basically goes to the --** 

### 4 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not** 

### 5 **indeterminate with compliance with the** 

### 6 **standard.** 

### 7 **MR. THARP: It goes to the -- if** 

### 8 **you follow what is in -- I'm pretty sure; not** 

### 9 **100 percent -- but I'm pretty sure that if you** 

### 10 **follow 10 CFR 449 Appendix A, that that is** 

### 11 **true. But I'll double-check at break.** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, so, Appendix A** 

### 13 **gives you an indeterminate and then it gives** 

### 14 **you next steps. But at the end of the day, it** 

### 15 **comes out with a pass or fail.** 

### 16 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 17 **MR. THARP: Correct, but it's** 

### 18 **after four units, I guess my -- according to** 

### 19 **my calculations, which need to be double** 

### 20 **checked, but you can take four units that are** 

### 21 **all tested at or above, or very, very close to** 

### 22 **the minimum compliant value. Use that to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 legally rate a product, then you take the**  

### 2 **exact same four values and put it into the** 

### 3 **enforcement action, and it comes out non** 

### 4 **compliant, or it comes out indeterminate, you** 

### 5 **have to test more. So, from a statistic** 

### 6 **standpoint -- but I think it goes back to --** 

### 7 **it's all in the statistics.** 

### 8 **And it's within the -- so, the** 

### 9 **tolerances come into play, the variance comes** 

### 10 **into play, and if a manufacturer presently has** 

### 11 **a very tight tolerance, then you can actually** 

### 12 **be penalized because of the tight tolerance.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 14 **MR. THARP: And if you have a very** 

### 15 **broad range of performance, then it's easier** 

### 16 **to pass.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: And I would say that** 

### 18 **that is one of the things that concerns the** 

### 19 **Department because it seems to be rewarding** 

### 20 **poor quality --** 

### 21 **MR. THARP: Poor performance,** 

### 22 **right. And to make Harvey happy, I think that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 is one thing that we, as a group, need to do,**  

### 2 **is to get together and reward those that are** 

### 3 **able to have tighter tolerances and better** 

### 4 **performance. But how we do that is -- you** 

### 5 **know, there is a lot of questions that need to** 

### 6 **be answered before we get to that point.** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 9 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I** 

### 10 **appreciate that you want to satisfy me, but** 

### 11 **I've been thinking along a slightly different** 

### 12 **line, that there really is sequential track.** 

### 13 **There is a very important task of** 

### 14 **getting the statistical regime under control.** 

### 15 **There is a second task, I believe particularly** 

### 16 **as we get into more specialty products, of** 

### 17 **getting a flow chart that a manufacturer can** 

### 18 **easily follow, and an enforcement agency can** 

### 19 **easily follow, that eliminates some of the** 

### 20 **ambiguities that Rusty has alluded to, which** 

### 21 **I fear are actually much greater.** 

### 22 **But I think that is the only way**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1 we can really expect the process to work and**  

### 2 **the only way we can expect everybody to** 

### 3 **understand it.** 

### 4 **So, I would just add to the call** 

### 5 **for statistics and call for clarification of** 

### 6 **whatever regulatory language emerges.** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, you want the** 

### 8 **flow chart. Just so I understand, you want a** 

### 9 **flow chart of the enforcement process starting** 

### 10 **with a single unit selection throughout? Or** 

### 11 **starting with the Department has a reason to** 

### 12 **believe that something may fail standards,** 

### 13 **just a process?** 

### 14 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I** 

### 15 **appreciate the question, and I need to** 

### 16 **understand it better to be able to respond.** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: The goal is a clear** 

### 19 **roadmap, and exactly what form that takes it** 

### 20 **might not have any boxes in there at all.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: I guess what I was** 

### 22 **trying to figure out was are you saying that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1 you need a roadmap of the process or a roadmap**  

### 2 **of how the stats work?** 

### 3 **MR. SACHS: I think, ultimately,** 

### 4 **what is needed, and I think I understand the** 

### 5 **distinction, is a process map that everybody** 

### 6 **can agree on and follow.** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: Right, okay.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: Any other comments?** 

### 9 **Do you want to put language up on the screen,** 

### 10 **or are you confident we can get this right in** 

### 11 **the report to ASRAC? Anybody want to see the** 

### 12 **actual language and about what we will say?** 

### 13 **MR. KLEISS: Sure.** 

### 14 **MR. SHEBIK: Neal, this is Ron** 

### 15 **Shebik on the phone.** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: Go ahead, Ron.** 

### 17 **MR. SHEBIK: Can I ask, other than** 

### 18 **Laura, Ashley and Neil, I can barely hear** 

### 19 **anybody else.** 

### 20 **MR. SACHS: I'm sorry, Ron. I'll** 

### 21 **shout.** 

### 22 **MR. SHEBIK: That helps. Thank**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1 you.**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: I'll remind everybody** 

### 3 **to shout at you.** 

### 4 **MR. SACHS: And it's not shouting** 

### 5 **in anger.** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: Okay, we're going to** 

### 7 **put the language up on the screen now and** 

### 8 **start crafting, and I think we're very close -** 

### 9 **-** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: So, what do you want** 

### 11 **it to say?** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: I mean, I think** 

### 13 **everybody agrees we start out by saying that** 

### 14 **DOE will revisit and hold public meetings or** 

### 15 **whatever with effected interests to resolve** 

### 16 **the use of the statistical data and the** 

### 17 **enforcement regulations.** 

### 18 **What do we want to say here about** 

### 19 **the --** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: To review the** 

### 21 **certification and enforcement statistics.** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: Okay, can we use a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1 larger type-face? There you go.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: Certification and** 

### 3 **enforcement statistics.** 

### 4 **MR. SACHS: And processes that** 

### 5 **follow from them.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: Can everybody see** 

### 8 **that? Is that sufficient? Anybody want to** 

### 9 **add anything?** 

### 10 **MR. KLEISS: Would it be of value** 

### 11 **to add a statement that we expressed interest** 

### 12 **in altering the method so that it does not** 

### 13 **reward variability in product performance?** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: And it's one of** 

### 15 **those things were the certification statistics** 

### 16 **do not, but the enforcement statistics do.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: Do you want to add** 

### 18 **that?** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: Sure, yes.** 

### 20 **MR. SACHS: So that verification -** 

### 21 **-** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: So that it -- change**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1 `it' to `the enforcement statistics'.**  

### 2 **MS. EDWARDS: Can we hold up for** 

### 3 **just a second? Another table is coming in, so** 

### 4 **we might have to do some readjustment for a** 

### 5 **moment.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: Sure, why don't we** 

### 8 **take a 10-minute break, everybody?** 

### 9 **(Whereupon, the above-entitled** 

### 10 **matter went off the record at 9:08 a.m. and** 

### 11 **resumed at 9:25 a.m.)** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: All right, any** 

### 13 **comments? Any questions?** 

### 14 **MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharp** 

### 15 **again. I guess my question is, it's stated** 

### 16 **that this would be a -- revisiting this, would** 

### 17 **this be something that ASRAC would be -- done** 

### 18 **through ASRAC?** 

### 19 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think we** 

### 20 **could do it. If we needed a working group, it** 

### 21 **might be worthwhile, asking ASRAC to form a** 

### 22 **separate working group --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1 MR. THARP: Yes.**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: -- to look into** 

### 3 **this.** 

### 4 **MR. THARP: Yes.** 

### 5 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Otherwise, it** 

### 6 **would be like a formal public meeting, which** 

### 7 **we like.** 

### 8 **MR. THARP: Don't like?** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: No comment.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: What is -- I mean,** 

### 11 **is the working group going to tell ASRAC that** 

### 12 **we think we need -- that ASRAC should** 

### 13 **recommend to DOE that there be a working group** 

### 14 **for this, as opposed to a public meeting?** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I guess it** 

### 16 **depends on what you guys want to do.** 

### 17 **If you guys want to do more round** 

### 18 **tables, like we're going to have like more** 

### 19 **round tables where we want DOE involved and we** 

### 20 **want to share data and we want to come up with** 

### 21 **ideas, that needs to be more in a working** 

### 22 **group format, because the public meeting is a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1 little bit more limited, as to what DOE can**  

### 2 **do.** 

### 3 **If you want just a public meeting,** 

### 4 **to have like a call about DOE is open to this,** 

### 5 **we want to share ideas, come hither with your** 

### 6 **data and present to DOE options, and the DOE** 

### 7 **does something from there, that is the other** 

### 8 **option.** 

### 9 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and as** 

### 10 **I'm thinking about this, it seems to me that** 

### 11 **there is another option, which might work** 

### 12 **better, and that might be to ask for a working** 

### 13 **group to be pulled together, to define the** 

### 14 **issues and a second stage of analysis by** 

### 15 **experts, which will take a few months, and a** 

### 16 **third stage, perhaps a public hearing on the** 

### 17 **recommendations that come from that report.** 

### 18 **So, there is input at the front** 

### 19 **end, as well as throughout the process, but we** 

### 20 **-- we really have a group of detached folks** 

### 21 **who are responsible for understanding the** 

### 22 **state-of-the-art and making recommendations**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1 for what is actually required.**  

### 2 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim from** 

### 3 **AHRI. I agree with that, that it's going to** 

### 4 **require more than just a working group here.** 

### 5 **It's going to require some analysis, somebody** 

### 6 **running, you know, the data.** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I mean, DOE** 

### 8 **can get a study --** 

### 9 **MR. AMRANE: A study.** 

### 10 **MS. ARMSTRONG: -- get a study** 

### 11 **conducted.** 

### 12 **MR. AMRANE: Right.** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: That is not an** 

### 14 **issue. The problem is going to be the data,** 

### 15 **getting the data, at least part of it.** 

### 16 **I mean, they can analyze stats all** 

### 17 **day, but what really is going to get to the** 

### 18 **heart of tolerances is going to be a couple of** 

### 19 **things.** 

### 20 **One is going to be perhaps, some** 

### 21 **coordinated round robin effort, and two, some** 

### 22 **type of characterization of manufacture and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1 variability, or at least the variability you**  

### 2 **guys are seeing when you do your testing and** 

### 3 **your manufacturing and stuff, and your rating** 

### 4 **basically, how you come up with your rating.** 

### 5 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again,** 

### 6 **and just a suggestion to be considered, and I** 

### 7 **will confess that I sit on the Research** 

### 8 **Administration Committee at ASHRAE.** 

### 9 **But I wonder if this analysis** 

### 10 **might be done most easily with some funding by** 

### 11 **the Department through ASHRAE, or co-funding** 

### 12 **through ASHRAE, to try to have a contract that** 

### 13 **is likely to get wide cooperation and buy-in.** 

### 14 **Again, I don't know that that** 

### 15 **level of detail should be on the board, but I** 

### 16 **would hope that it would be something to be** 

### 17 **considered, and I do not get a commission of** 

### 18 **the ASHRAE project funding.** 

### 19 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. It's** 

### 20 **an interesting idea that you have, Harvey.** 

### 21 **But ASHRAE typically is not fast enough, and** 

### 22 **that is the concern I would have with ASHRAE.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1 I mean --**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: DOE shares your** 

### 3 **concerns.** 

### 4 **MR. AMRANE: Okay, yes.** 

### 5 **MR. THARP: Ditto.** 

### 6 **MS. HOOTMAN: Well, and ASHRAE's** 

### 7 **really not in testing. So, it's not their** 

### 8 **expertise.** 

### 9 **They write the standards, but they** 

### 10 **don't sit and actually physically test these.** 

### 11 **MR. SACHS: I very much appreciate** 

### 12 **that, Jill, and we can probably take this** 

### 13 **offline.** 

### 14 **The sense I had is that the task** 

### 15 **is about understanding testing, but more so,** 

### 16 **understanding testing in order to develop** 

### 17 **guidelines that the Department can adopt for** 

### 18 **the interaction between tolerances and number** 

### 19 **of samples and all of these things that those** 

### 20 **of us sitting around the table don't feel** 

### 21 **comfortable with our own expertise, and at** 

### 22 **least I don't.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: On this language --**  

### 2 **so, I have that we're recommending to ASRAC** 

### 3 **that they should develop a separate working** 

### 4 **group to frame the issues, followed by data** 

### 5 **gathering and analysis.** 

### 6 **That analysis should support a** 

### 7 **standard rulemaking and negotiated rulemaking.** 

### 8 **MR. SACHS: Why not make that** 

### 9 **ambiguous?** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay, we can make it** 

### 11 **ambiguous.** 

### 12 **MR. AMRANE: And when we say** 

### 13 **statistics, are we also including uncertainty** 

### 14 **analysis and things of that nature, that we** 

### 15 **thought of that, right? Should we clarify** 

### 16 **that or is it -- I don't know, I mean --** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: I don't know. To** 

### 18 **me, uncertainty is part of the statistics, I** 

### 19 **mean --** 

### 20 **MR. SACHS: I would certainly** 

### 21 **agree, support -- statistics paren, including** 

### 22 **uncertainty --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: -- uncertainty** 

### 3 **analysis. I would certainly support that. I** 

### 4 **don't see how it could harm it.** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: If we include** 

### 6 **uncertainty analysis --** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: I was going to say -** 

### 8 **-** 

### 9 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 10 **HTP. If we include uncertainty analysis, then** 

### 11 **we need to include error analysis also,** 

### 12 **because you have uncertainty of the test** 

### 13 **method itself. You have uncertainty of** 

### 14 **certain products. You have --** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: I would rather just** 

### 16 **leave it the broader statistics --** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree.** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: -- because as soon** 

### 19 **as we start enumerating things, we're going to** 

### 20 **have to sit here and --** 

### 21 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes.** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: -- try and come up**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1 with all the different -- 2 MR. AMRANE: Fine, as long it's**  **3 understood that the -- it's going to include 4 those.**  **5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 6 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,**  **7 Lochinvar. On the third sentence, 8 "Manufacturers committed to provide data**  **9 regarding manufacturing and testing 10 variability."**  **11 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, good. 12 MR. EISNER: Okay, any other**  **13 comments? Any other changes to the language 14 on the screen?**  **15 All right, do we want to take a 16 vote on this, or do we just want to treat it**  **17 very informally? Any reason not to -- does 18 anybody object?**  **19 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman 20 from NRAC. I do have a question.**  **21 Is everybody okay with just the 22 manufacturers being able to provide data** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1 regarding manufacturing and testing**  

### 2 **variability?** 

### 3 **Is that something that would** 

### 4 **potentially be confidential? Should that be** 

### 5 **called out here, would that potentially be** 

### 6 **confidential, or to me, when you read that, it** 

### 7 **says --** 

### 8 **MR. AMRANE: That we don't --** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: Oh, so, you think** 

### 10 **that that reads like you're agreeing to** 

### 11 **provide public information?** 

### 12 **MR. BAUMAN: Correct.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: As opposed to just** 

### 14 **providing information on the --** 

### 15 **MR. BAUMAN: That would be just** 

### 16 **for the Department's use --** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 18 **MR. BAUMAN: -- for the analysis,** 

### 19 **and it's kept --** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 21 **MR. BAUMAN: -- under a lot -- I** 

### 22 **draw a lot of concerns on that, right now.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,**  

### 2 **HTP. I think we're well within our purview to** 

### 3 **normalize our own data and supply that.** 

### 4 **That way, it has a level of** 

### 5 **generic --** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: Everybody okay with -** 

### 7 **-** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: I think we could do** 

### 9 **it either way, right?** 

### 10 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and** 

### 11 **perhaps unlike my friend Tim, I'm not at all** 

### 12 **convinced that I need to see these individual** 

### 13 **manufacturer's data, but it is part of the** 

### 14 **reason that I've been thinking, in terms of** 

### 15 **the third-party analysis, to help keep this --** 

### 16 **those submissions FOIA proof.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: You're not making any** 

### 18 **decisions as to whether the data is** 

### 19 **confidential. You're just saying somebody may** 

### 20 **make a claim.** 

### 21 **MR. SACHS: Yes.** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: Is that --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1 MR. THARP: I am personally --**  

### 2 **Rusty, again, and I am personally fine with** 

### 3 **leaving it generic at this point, also.** 

### 4 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It isn't hard to** 

### 5 **keep that sentence in there.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: I was going to say,** 

### 7 **that clause does not say there is or there** 

### 8 **isn't or anything else. It just --** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the** 

### 10 **reality of it is that --** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: To the extent that** 

### 12 **there is --** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: -- a concern.** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: You know, yes, we** 

### 16 **make -- end up with third-parties looking at** 

### 17 **this, but we would also have our contractors** 

### 18 **help, and if we need to deal with confidential** 

### 19 **sharing through them, so it doesn't cross the** 

### 20 **FOIA lines --** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: Any other comments?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with**  

### 2 **Goodman. I would like to add to the last --** 

### 3 **the very last one-line paragraph, that says,** 

### 4 **"Nor penalize manufacturers for low** 

### 5 **variability."** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: Okay.** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: That is what that** 

### 8 **means.** 

### 9 **MR. EISNER: Does anybody object** 

### 10 **to the -- the dash between high and** 

### 11 **variability?** 

### 12 **(Laughter.)** 

### 13 **MR. DOPPEL: Just above that, do** 

### 14 **we need, in order to be better to define the** 

### 15 **methods as, you know, a paragraph in -- is it** 

### 16 **431 or 429? Four-twenty-nine.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: Oh, sorry, we edited** 

### 18 **the sentence and I don't think we actually got** 

### 19 **it quite -- does that work?** 

### 20 **MR. THARP: Actually, it really --** 

### 21 **certification or enforcement, certification** 

### 22 **statistics or enforcement statistics.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: Does that --**  

### 2 **MR. THARP: Do we want to --** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: The certifications** 

### 4 **is the --** 

### 5 **MS. ARMSTRONG: The certifications** 

### 6 **don't.** 

### 7 **MR. THARP: They don't what?** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: They don't reward it** 

### 9 **or penalize it.** 

### 10 **MR. THARP: But they -- I guess my** 

### 11 **thought is that there is -- the two are** 

### 12 **somewhat tied together.** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. So, it** 

### 14 **is -- the first paragraph takes into account** 

### 15 **the fact that if the report comes out and it** 

### 16 **recommends changes in the statistics** 

### 17 **generally, because of the variability that is** 

### 18 **captured, then the analysis would support a** 

### 19 **rulemaking to --** 

### 20 **MR. THARP: To change those?** 

### 21 **MS. ARMSTRONG: -- to change** 

### 22 **those.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1 MR. THARP: Okay, so --**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: The next statement** 

### 3 **is just that currently our enforcement stats** 

### 4 **seem to reward high variability and product** 

### 5 **performance, and penalize low variability,** 

### 6 **because we can't actually determine when** 

### 7 **things are non-compliant.** 

### 8 **MR. THARP: Okay.** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, that is a** 

### 10 **different idea and our current stats don't do** 

### 11 **that, right now.** 

### 12 **MR. THARP: Okay, but based on** 

### 13 **that study, you are open to certification** 

### 14 **stats and changes?** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 16 **MR. THARP: All right, thank you** 

### 17 **for the clarification.** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: Anyone else?** 

### 19 **MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo. I** 

### 20 **had a question.** 

### 21 **The idea of having a different** 

### 22 **working group for this, I'm just wondering, I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1 really don't know, like are there people that**  

### 2 **are in this process, that should be involved** 

### 3 **in that process? How much overlap really is** 

### 4 **there?** 

### 5 **MS. ARMSTRONG: The way -- so,** 

### 6 **Harvey, you may want to chime in here, but the** 

### 7 **way I saw it is to have like the -- some type** 

### 8 **of expertise group that is not directly** 

### 9 **involved, review the data, review our stats,** 

### 10 **and provide DOE and the working group, all the** 

### 11 **interested parties, with like a third-party** 

### 12 **recommendation of what changes could benefit** 

### 13 **the program, whether it be --** 

### 14 **So, that panel could be** 

### 15 **statisticians. It could be people from NIST.** 

### 16 **It could be -- you know, it's not regulated** 

### 17 **entities. It's not the Department. It's not** 

### 18 **the vested interest, let's put it that way.** 

### 19 **But we would all have the ability** 

### 20 **to have a public meeting and discuss the** 

### 21 **report afterwards.** 

### 22 **Does that make -- does that seem**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1 like what you were saying?**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: Actually, this is** 

### 3 **Harvey, and appreciate it. Just a little** 

### 4 **nuance.** 

### 5 **My sense is that some of us might** 

### 6 **want to be on the working group, and some of** 

### 7 **us might not. I could well imagine a** 

### 8 **manufacturer wanting its certification** 

### 9 **department head or someone else who is very** 

### 10 **much involved with the layouts, representing** 

### 11 **that manufacturer, rather than some of the** 

### 12 **people who are here today, who are** 

### 13 **extraordinary, but have broader interests.** 

### 14 **I think we would want to have such** 

### 15 **a person. That is the group that is** 

### 16 **formulating the charge --** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: -- to the analytical** 

### 19 **group.** 

### 20 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, and the** 

### 21 **analytical group would be separate.** 

### 22 **MR. SACHS: Right.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: The we come back and** 

### 3 **presumably, want to be paid. Then we come** 

### 4 **back with some sort of a meeting at which,** 

### 5 **presumably, a broader range of folks from** 

### 6 **industry and elsewhere would want to be** 

### 7 **involved, because now, we're getting into the** 

### 8 **implications --** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 10 **MR. SACHS: -- as well as the** 

### 11 **recommendations.** 

### 12 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, right.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: Did that answer your** 

### 14 **question, Tim?** 

### 15 **MR. BALLO: Yes, I think so.** 

### 16 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 17 **MR. SACHS: We're trying to make** 

### 18 **it more complicated.** 

### 19 **MR. THARP: Does this scope of** 

### 20 **this work, would this be just commercial?** 

### 21 **Would it be --** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Doesn't have to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60**  **1 be.**  

### 2 **MR. THARP: -- HVAC products?** 

### 3 **Would it be all covered products?** 

### 4 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I sense that it's** 

### 5 **a -- based on the feedback we've gotten, to** 

### 6 **open it up to everything.** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 8 **MR. THARP: To all covered** 

### 9 **products?** 

### 10 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 11 **MR. THARP: And the reason that is** 

### 12 **--** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, everyone** 

### 14 **has asked us for the same thing, pretty much** 

### 15 **from all directions.** 

### 16 **MR. THARP: That is a big group.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: I mean, there are** 

### 18 **some unique issues for commercial equipment,** 

### 19 **but those apply as well to low-volume products** 

### 20 **on the residential side.** 

### 21 **So, I think that what we hear are** 

### 22 **-- the issues are the same, across all product**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61**  **1 types.**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It may be when we** 

### 3 **get to the -- it may be after we get the** 

### 4 **report, where people are -- you know, those** 

### 5 **groups have decided to participate and the** 

### 6 **study has come out, when it says we have to** 

### 7 **look at -- it may be that we decide to either** 

### 8 **hold separate public meetings for certain** 

### 9 **products --** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: For products.** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: -- at that point** 

### 12 **in time, or separate rulemaking to change** 

### 13 **things, because probably the recommendations** 

### 14 **and the implementation of this may be very** 

### 15 **well be -- end up being product specific or --** 

### 16 **MS. BARHYDT: Like the cert** 

### 17 **statistics right now are product specific.** 

### 18 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: I mean, there is a** 

### 20 **lot of reason to think that the answer is not** 

### 21 **going to be identical for every single** 

### 22 **product, but the issues are.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62**  **1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I**  

### 2 **am not sure, and I'm certainly not dogmatic,** 

### 3 **but I wonder if it might make sense to start** 

### 4 **with the products that have been covered in** 

### 5 **this working group, because for the really** 

### 6 **mass-produced things, like set-top boxes --** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't talk** 

### 8 **about those.** 

### 9 **(Laughter.)** 

### 10 **MR. SACHS: Well, I think I've** 

### 11 **just established my point, that there are** 

### 12 **products within your 80 groups of covered** 

### 13 **products, which are just going to make the** 

### 14 **task of working on these things a whole lot** 

### 15 **more complex, because of the inner -- or even** 

### 16 **more urgent.** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, maybe it's --** 

### 18 **I mean, we can definitely put the** 

### 19 **recommendation, whatever we'd like it to be** 

### 20 **per ASRAC, and I can definitely relay the** 

### 21 **message.** 

### 22 **I would say because ASRAC**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63**  **1 represents a wider cross-section of**  

### 2 **industries, they might have some views on what** 

### 3 **-- you know, how their points should go.** 

### 4 **MR. SACHS: I am just volunteering** 

### 5 **this group to be the mine canary.** 

### 6 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, that is** 

### 7 **fine. I have a feeling the Department would** 

### 8 **hear a lot of feedback if it starts this for** 

### 9 **one and didn't actually, at least provide the** 

### 10 **ability to open it up for others.** 

### 11 **MR. HUDNALL: This is Ralph with** 

### 12 **AHAM. It may be that the first meeting would** 

### 13 **be the larger meeting and cover all the** 

### 14 **products, and they could come out with** 

### 15 **breakouts for individual product categories.** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: Anything else? All** 

### 17 **right, look at what is up on the screen. Does** 

### 18 **anybody object to that going in the next** 

### 19 **report to ASRAC?** 

### 20 **MS. MEYERS: Should that last** 

### 21 **sentence that says -- should we say, "Or vice** 

### 22 **versa for certification statistics."**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64**  **1 MR. EISNER: Are there thoughts on**  

### 2 **that?** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: I would oppose that.** 

### 4 **MS. MEYERS: So, in a** 

### 5 **certification program, if you have high** 

### 6 **variability, it's more of a penalty, right?** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 8 **MS. MEYERS: Then a reward?** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: And I think that is** 

### 10 **appropriate, because if you are making very** 

### 11 **variable units, the whole idea is that a** 

### 12 **consumer who goes in and buys a product, is** 

### 13 **more likely than not, going to get one that** 

### 14 **meets whatever you've rated it at.** 

### 15 **If you have very high variability,** 

### 16 **then not only may they not quite meet it, but** 

### 17 **it may not meet it by a lot, and I think that** 

### 18 **it's appropriate to shift the bell-curve to** 

### 19 **bump up that number a little bit.** 

### 20 **I think that high variability** 

### 21 **should not be -- should be penalized on a** 

### 22 **certification.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65**  **1 MS. MEYERS: It is, isn't it,**  

### 2 **because we have an adjusted -- we don't** 

### 3 **average it, right? So --** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: Sure.** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 6 **HTP. My concern is when we initially release** 

### 7 **a product and a certification, these are the** 

### 8 **first few units built.** 

### 9 **So, we're going to have the most** 

### 10 **manufacturing variability.** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: Right, as we** 

### 13 **produce more and more of these, our** 

### 14 **variability naturally is going to --** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: And you have the** 

### 16 **ability to always revise your rating. If you** 

### 17 **minimize your variable -- so, if from the** 

### 18 **outset, you are pushed to rate conservatively,** 

### 19 **which is what our stats will push you to do,** 

### 20 **if you had high variability, that would be** 

### 21 **your initial cert.** 

### 22 **Then if you needed to revise that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66**  **1 later down the line, because you have tweaked**  

### 2 **things or gotten things under control, or the** 

### 3 **ratings changed, it can -- you know, you can** 

### 4 **push for a higher rating and you're allowed to** 

### 5 **do that.** 

### 6 **MR. STEPHENS: But now, with what** 

### 7 **we're negotiating within this meeting, it's** 

### 8 **going to cost a lot more money to re-rate in** 

### 9 **the future.** 

### 10 **MS. ARMSTRONG: No. Why?** 

### 11 **MR. STEPHENS: 17-025 mandatory** 

### 12 **third-party.** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: No, none of that** 

### 14 **is for cert.** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: None of that is for** 

### 16 **cert.** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: That is nothing --** 

### 18 **none of that is for how you determine your** 

### 19 **rating. It could be, but it's not.** 

### 20 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with** 

### 21 **AHRI.** 

### 22 **MR. SACHS: Shout, Frank.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67**  **1 MR. STANONIK: I need to shout?**  

### 2 **Well, that actually raises another question.** 

### 3 **This paragraph has the heading,** 

### 4 **and maybe I missed the discussion, the heading** 

### 5 **is `enforcement', right, and then the very** 

### 6 **first thing it says is that --** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 8 **MR. STANONIK: -- certification** 

### 9 **enforcement statistics --** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: So, the reason I put** 

### 11 **`enforcement' up there was because that was** 

### 12 **the thing that was within the agreed upon** 

### 13 **scope.** 

### 14 **MR. STANONIK: All right, but let** 

### 15 **me finish my question.** 

### 16 **So, then at the end, it says,** 

### 17 **okay, the working group developer, that** 

### 18 **analysis should support a rulemaking.** 

### 19 **Are we talking about a rulemaking** 

### 20 **to change the enforcement regulations or a** 

### 21 **rulemaking to change certification or both?** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Both.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: Both.**  

### 2 **MR. STANONIK: Okay, all right.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: We can --** 

### 4 **MR. STANONIK: All right, so, you** 

### 5 **mean in the --** 

### 6 **MS. MEYERS: And we left it open** 

### 7 **ended because we didn't know --** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: Right.** 

### 9 **MS. MEYERS: -- if the rules --** 

### 10 **MR. STANONIK: Okay.** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It's the title,** 

### 12 **where it says `enforcement'.** 

### 13 **PARTICIPANT: Change the title.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: I mean, we can** 

### 15 **change the title. I just put it there because** 

### 16 **that was --** 

### 17 **MR. STANONIK: That's all right,** 

### 18 **you answered the question.** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: -- the topic area.** 

### 20 **MR. STANONIK: But then on the --** 

### 21 **and one more other comment --** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I think the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69**  **1 analysis --**  

### 2 **MR. STANONIK: -- on this** 

### 3 **discussion, I think Ashley brought it back to** 

### 4 **the center, is that certification is the test** 

### 5 **you do before, to determine the initial rating** 

### 6 **before you introduce it into Commerce.** 

### 7 **There has always been this kind of** 

### 8 **chicken and egg question because the** 

### 9 **regulations say you're supposed to determine** 

### 10 **your rating on production units, and yet,** 

### 11 **theoretically, you can't produce units to sell** 

### 12 **until you have the rating, and so, it's always** 

### 13 **kind of been this grey zone of the units that** 

### 14 **you're using to determine your rating.** 

### 15 **But in fact, I would say in many** 

### 16 **cases, that it's more likely the aspect of** 

### 17 **more hands-on manufacturing than unit 1000** 

### 18 **that came down in production line, that would** 

### 19 **be used to determine your rating, and I think** 

### 20 **that's the way it's going to be.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: The regulation** 

### 22 **states --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70**  **1 MR. THARP: The regs do state a**  

### 2 **production representative, right?** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, it says the** 

### 4 **sample comprised of production units or units** 

### 5 **representative of production units.** 

### 6 **MR. THARP: Right.** 

### 7 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 8 **HTP.** 

### 9 **MR. SACHS: Shout.** 

### 10 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 11 **HTP. So, we release. We do our** 

### 12 **certifications, and we list it one rating.** 

### 13 **Six months later, we update the** 

### 14 **rating. Which one do you want verification** 

### 15 **for?** 

### 16 **MS. BARHYDT: It'll be whatever is** 

### 17 **current.** 

### 18 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Current.** 

### 19 **MR. STEPHENS: Okay.** 

### 20 **MR. DOPPEL: In the -- this is** 

### 21 **Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.** 

### 22 **In the second to the last sentence**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71**  **1 on that first paragraph, working group**  

### 2 **recommends that ASRAC develop a separate,** 

### 3 **should we insert `technical working group',** 

### 4 **just to make sure that it's understood that** 

### 5 **it's not just anybody?** 

### 6 **(Laughter.)** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, the way this** 

### 8 **works, right, is we will -- just like we did** 

### 9 **for this, we will announce a public -- open** 

### 10 **for nominations. We will accept them. ASRAC** 

### 11 **will come up with their recommendations for** 

### 12 **the Department.** 

### 13 **So, I mean, if you --** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: If you trust ASRAC** 

### 15 **to --** 

### 16 **MS. ARMSTRONG: You can recommend** 

### 17 **to ASRAC that they are --** 

### 18 **MR. DOPPEL: But my point --** 

### 19 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and** 

### 20 **I'd like to ask what value the word `separate'** 

### 21 **adds to the paragraph?** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It just**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72**  **1 distinguishes it from this one.**  

### 2 **PARTICIPANT: Please don't make us** 

### 3 **do this.** 

### 4 **(Laughter.)** 

### 5 **MR. STANONIK: But clearly, it** 

### 6 **doesn't say assign this working group** 

### 7 **responsibility. I mean, saying develop -- to** 

### 8 **develop a working group, the fact of another** 

### 9 **one --** 

### 10 **MS. MEYERS: I just would -- yes,** 

### 11 **I would just take out `technical'. Develop a** 

### 12 **working group. It could be this same one. It** 

### 13 **could be another one. It could be a technical** 

### 14 **one. It could be --** 

### 15 **PARTICIPANT: The developer group** 

### 16 **is --** 

### 17 **MS. MEYERS: It could be a --** 

### 18 **PARTICIPANT: -- is not the same** 

### 19 **group.** 

### 20 **MR. WHITWELL: Hello. This is Bob** 

### 21 **Whitwell.** 

### 22 **MS. MEYERS: Convene a working**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73**  **1 group?**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 3 **PARTICIPANT: Hi, Bob.** 

### 4 **MR. WHITWELL: Hi. So, I just** 

### 5 **joined. I feel like I've missed a lot in the** 

### 6 **last hour.** 

### 7 **Can you briefly describe what the** 

### 8 **scope is of this working group that you're** 

### 9 **describing here?** 

### 10 **I'm sorry, that you have to rehash** 

### 11 **what you've already covered, but I just wanted** 

### 12 **to see if I could get up to speed a little** 

### 13 **bit.** 

### 14 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, the** 

### 15 **CliffsNotes version is, the group asked the** 

### 16 **Department to consider changes to** 

### 17 **certification and enforcement steps.** 

### 18 **The Department said it is** 

### 19 **completely open to revising the certification** 

### 20 **and enforcement steps, such that data is** 

### 21 **provided that shows that more appropriate** 

### 22 **values might -- should be.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74**  **1 So, we decided that this working**  

### 2 **group probably wouldn't be able to tackle that** 

### 3 **today, or even in the near term, and instead,** 

### 4 **what we're going to do is, what we see -- what** 

### 5 **you see on the screen, which is recommend to** 

### 6 **ASRAC that they form a -- develop a separate** 

### 7 **working group, although we can't say separate,** 

### 8 **to frame up the issues with the current** 

### 9 **certification and enforcement regulations and** 

### 10 **statistics.** 

### 11 **That once the issues are framed** 

### 12 **up, that we want -- you know, all the issues** 

### 13 **that we want looked into, framed up.** 

### 14 **DOE will commit a third-party to** 

### 15 **do a study of its statistics, basically a** 

### 16 **statistical analysis, looking at different** 

### 17 **errors and different uncertainties, inherent** 

### 18 **within our current regulations.** 

### 19 **They will also have access to** 

### 20 **manufacturer-supplied data on variability, as** 

### 21 **well as both from their manufacturing and** 

### 22 **testing variability.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75**  **1 They will come out with a report.**  

### 2 **DOE will then hold a public meeting about the** 

### 3 **findings of the report and how -- and get** 

### 4 **feedback from everyone about how to implement** 

### 5 **that. That is the CliffsNotes version.** 

### 6 **MR. WHITWELL: So, looking at cost** 

### 7 **variability, looking at number of samples** 

### 8 **required for certification, if it's based on** 

### 9 **test, and looking at statistical confidence** 

### 10 **levels that are to be used --** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.** 

### 12 **MR. WHITWELL: -- for those** 

### 13 **calculations --** 

### 14 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 15 **MR. WHITWELL: -- as well as the -** 

### 16 **-** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, it gets the** 

### 18 **stuff that --** 

### 19 **MR. WHITWELL: Is that kind of** 

### 20 **what we're talking about here?** 

### 21 **MS. ARMSTRONG: -- that you --** 

### 22 **yes, it gets to all the stuff you brought up**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76**  **1 at the last meeting, that you thought we**  

### 2 **should look into.** 

### 3 **MR. WHITWELL: Okay, thanks.** 

### 4 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 5 **MR. BAUMAN: Jeff Bauman. For** 

### 6 **clarification, when we did -- I know the** 

### 7 **Department breaks up certification,** 

### 8 **enforcement, conservation standards and there** 

### 9 **are different sets of rulemaking, and I'm not** 

### 10 **going to let you go today without talking** 

### 11 **about conservation standards.** 

### 12 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, no.** 

### 13 **MR. BAUMAN: What we're talking** 

### 14 **about here, that would -- to me, that would --** 

### 15 **if we're saying what we want this analysis to** 

### 16 **support, I think rulemaking for standards** 

### 17 **would be included in that.** 

### 18 **So, is that beyond what we're** 

### 19 **talking about here?** 

### 20 **MS. ARMSTRONG: No, it would be** 

### 21 **separate. I get that the statistics will** 

### 22 **ultimately impact the stringency of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77**  **1 standard, but the standard rulemaking that is**  

### 2 **ongoing for your products, as well for other -** 

### 3 **- well, let's be honest, for everyone's** 

### 4 **products in this room, pretty much, would stay** 

### 5 **separate.** 

### 6 **MS. MEYERS: Say that one more** 

### 7 **time.** 

### 8 **MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's about** 

### 9 **all I can say about the rulemaking for** 

### 10 **standards.** 

### 11 **MS. MEYERS: Yes.** 

### 12 **MR. BAUMAN: Can we say that -- I** 

### 13 **apologize for interrupting.** 

### 14 **Can we say the analysis should** 

### 15 **support a rulemaking for survey and be** 

### 16 **considered in -- for future standard** 

### 17 **developments?** 

### 18 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I mean, we** 

### 19 **can talk offline about exactly -- you know,** 

### 20 **this is something Rusty and I just had a** 

### 21 **sidebar on, as well, that I was trying to** 

### 22 **avoid getting --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78**  **1 MR. THARP: You're welcome.**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, thank you.** 

### 3 **This is really appreciated.** 

### 4 **(Laughter.)** 

### 5 **You know, I think the answer is,** 

### 6 **long-term, yes, the stats and the standards** 

### 7 **and the whole process, the test procedures,** 

### 8 **they all work together, right. They all, you** 

### 9 **know, make up what we call our program.** 

### 10 **It's hard because everything is** 

### 11 **going on right now simultaneously.** 

### 12 **So, how it will impact things, I** 

### 13 **can't say, but yes, we can talk about it.** 

### 14 **What we won't be able to do** 

### 15 **though, is change the level that comes out,** 

### 16 **and so, if the level comes out as final first,** 

### 17 **if that is what you're asking --** 

### 18 **MR. BAUMAN: I'm not asking that.** 

### 19 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.** 

### 20 **MR. BAUMAN: If I'm doing** 

### 21 **anything, I'll say I am trying to calm the** 

### 22 **potential waters that are going to be -- waves**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79**  **1 that you're going to be riding a couple weeks**  

### 2 **from now.** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I am aware. I'm** 

### 4 **not going to that meeting. That is John.** 

### 5 **MR. BAUMAN: We'll come and find** 

### 6 **you.** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't see the** 

### 8 **standards. I see the test procedures and --** 

### 9 **MR. BAUMAN: But anything we can** 

### 10 **do along -- I understand that that is a** 

### 11 **different set of --** 

### 12 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 13 **MR. BAUMAN: -- of fun and games** 

### 14 **that we're going to have, but any potential** 

### 15 **help we can do that would --** 

### 16 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I mean --** 

### 17 **MR. BAUMAN: -- the first things,** 

### 18 **the efforts that the Department is making or** 

### 19 **groups are making to help alleviate some of** 

### 20 **the concerns that are ultimately going to come** 

### 21 **out there.** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80**  **1 MR. BAUMAN: That is my thought.**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, like I** 

### 3 **said, I don't know what wording to put on the** 

### 4 **screen there, necessarily. It's not going to** 

### 5 **-- so, it's not going to change what is** 

### 6 **happening in that rulemaking.** 

### 7 **But what I can tell you is, the** 

### 8 **outcome of that rulemaking is not determined** 

### 9 **yet. It's a -- you've seen the proposal. Very** 

### 10 **aware of what is coming, and that might change** 

### 11 **the final outcome of the rulemaking. I don't** 

### 12 **know.** 

### 13 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 14 **HTP. Can you clarify the use of the pronoun** 

### 15 **`that'?** 

### 16 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know where** 

### 17 **that is.** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: She said `that' like** 

### 19 **20 times.** 

### 20 **MR. STEPHENS: Right.** 

### 21 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, so, he is** 

### 22 **talking about the rulemaking that just came**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81**  **1 out last week, or two weeks ago.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: There was a CRE --** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: A CRE in walk-in,** 

### 4 **but I think most of you know, there are** 

### 5 **rulemakings going on for most of your** 

### 6 **products, for example.** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: Anything else?** 

### 8 **MR. WHITWELL: Yes, this is Bob** 

### 9 **Whitwell, again.** 

### 10 **So, the last sentence there, can** 

### 11 **you -- can you help me understand the comments** 

### 12 **about rewarding high variability or penalizing** 

### 13 **low variability?** 

### 14 **(Laughter.)** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: Sorry, Bob, there** 

### 16 **was a pretty amusing cell phone ring.** 

### 17 **MR. WHITWELL: Yes, I know, I** 

### 18 **heard it.** 

### 19 **(Laughter.)** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: So, the current** 

### 21 **enforcement statistics benefit a manufacturer** 

### 22 **with high variability in their manufacturing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82**  **1 process, and conversely, it penalizes**  

### 2 **manufacturers who have very low variability in** 

### 3 **their manufacturing process.** 

### 4 **The working group agreed that that** 

### 5 **was not a desirable aspect of enforcement** 

### 6 **statistics.** 

### 7 **MR. WHITWELL: Is this related to** 

### 8 **the sample size and then the calculations done** 

### 9 **on the results? Is that what you're talking** 

### 10 **about?** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: No, it's -- well --** 

### 12 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Kind of.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: Kind of. The --** 

### 14 **because it's based off of the confidence** 

### 15 **interval --** 

### 16 **MR. WHITWELL: Yes.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: -- the -- as your** 

### 18 **variability increases, your confidence** 

### 19 **interval, obviously, is getting bigger, and s,** 

### 20 **the way the stats are set up for enforcement,** 

### 21 **the variability, the lack of confidence, goes** 

### 22 **to the manufacturer.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83**  **1 So, if there is a lot of**  

### 2 **uncertainty we cannot find it non-compliant.** 

### 3 **So, if you have a lot of** 

### 4 **variability, but all of the units are below** 

### 5 **the standard, we may not be able to find the** 

### 6 **product non-compliant because of the high** 

### 7 **variability.** 

### 8 **MR. WHITWELL: Okay.** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: Whereas, if you have** 

### 10 **very tight variability, we may be able to find** 

### 11 **it non-compliant.** 

### 12 **MR. WHITWELL: Okay, I got it.** 

### 13 **Thank you.** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: Any other comments?** 

### 15 **Does anybody object to the recommendation on** 

### 16 **the screen? Does anybody want to abstain?** 

### 17 **Okay, it's unanimous. All right.** 

### 18 **MR. AMRANE: One clarification.** 

### 19 **Is this going to be part of the report that is** 

### 20 **going to ASRAC tomorrow?** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: So, what I'm hoping** 

### 22 **we can do is basically read it off to them or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84**  **1 hand out a supplement or something like that.**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: They've gotten the** 

### 3 **report already.** 

### 4 **MR. AMRANE: Already?** 

### 5 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: They've been --** 

### 8 **the report that you guys have seen has been** 

### 9 **transmitted to them.** 

### 10 **So, I'm happy to read this at the** 

### 11 **meeting to them.** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: And that relates to** 

### 13 **the next issue I had mentioned at the** 

### 14 **beginning of the meeting with Harvey, on** 

### 15 **raising something over the weekend.** 

### 16 **So, that also could be handled in** 

### 17 **the same way depending on what this group** 

### 18 **decides.** 

### 19 **So, if there is nothing else on** 

### 20 **this issue, let's turn it over to Harvey, who** 

### 21 **will raise his voice and indicate what he was** 

### 22 **talking about in his email.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85**  **1 MR. SACHS: I will raise my voice**  

### 2 **in thanksgiving. We've used the same language** 

### 3 **for all sorts of products and the language** 

### 4 **about condensing or evaporating coils is** 

### 5 **probably just not technically correct for** 

### 6 **water source heat pumps, where we're talking** 

### 7 **about a refrigerator to water heat exchange --** 

### 8 **exchanger on at least one side and maybe both.** 

### 9 **So, I've only suggested that** 

### 10 **technical change of using the term `heat** 

### 11 **exchanger' instead of `coil' and letting that** 

### 12 **apply to both, since most of the units sold** 

### 13 **are heat pumps or hermaphrodites.** 

### 14 **So, it's not any intent to change** 

### 15 **the meaning, but just make us look like we** 

### 16 **understood the product.** 

### 17 **I think there is general agreement** 

### 18 **that, that would not change the meaning and is** 

### 19 **an okay thing to do.** 

### 20 **Now, in contrast, I sent another** 

### 21 **email out, suggesting there were some things** 

### 22 **I was unhappy with, and I'm here to apologize,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86**  **1 that I think I understand, we really can't do**  

### 2 **that stuff, and I accept the figurative slap** 

### 3 **on the fingers.** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: So, the only issue** 

### 5 **then remaining is one about changes.** 

### 6 **MR. SACHS: Yes.** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: And several of you** 

### 8 **responded in emails. I believe everybody who** 

### 9 **did respond said that was fine with them.** 

### 10 **MR. SACHS: Did anyone reach Wes?** 

### 11 **MR. THARP: No, Wes never** 

### 12 **responded, but I think he'd be okay with it.** 

### 13 **MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel,** 

### 14 **Mitsubishi. I think this same change would** 

### 15 **also be applicable to the BRF definition.** 

### 16 **MR. THARP: The reality is, you** 

### 17 **could use that for all --** 

### 18 **MR. DOPPEL: Actually, you're** 

### 19 **right.** 

### 20 **MR. THARP: -- applications and** 

### 21 **the source --** 

### 22 **MR. SACHS: Yes, it would**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87**  **1 generalize for all applications and it gets**  

### 2 **away from all the awkwardness about heat** 

### 3 **sources and air conditioners.** 

### 4 **MS. ARMSTRONG: That would be** 

### 5 **fine.** 

### 6 **MR. THARP: I don't have a -- from** 

### 7 **a technical standpoint, I don't have a problem** 

### 8 **changing all of them from coil to heat** 

### 9 **exchanger.** 

### 10 **MR. AMRANE: Yes, I mean, that's a** 

### 11 **generic, heat exchanger.** 

### 12 **MR. THARP: Right.** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: All right. Anybody** 

### 14 **want to comment any further?** 

### 15 **Does anyone object to this change** 

### 16 **being made and provided tomorrow, if possible,** 

### 17 **to ASRAC, with a handout?** 

### 18 **MR. WHITWELL: So, the change that** 

### 19 **we're talking about here -- sorry, Bob** 

### 20 **Whitwell, Carrier.** 

### 21 **So, the change we're talking about** 

### 22 **here is changing -- just changing the wording**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88**  **1 with comparable heat exchanger in the other**  

### 2 **basic model definitions, correct?** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: Yes, that is correct.** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, wherever it** 

### 6 **references the coils, changing that to heat** 

### 7 **exchangers.** 

### 8 **MR. WHITWELL: Right.** 

### 9 **MR. EISNER: Okay, so no one** 

### 10 **objects? Does anybody want to abstain?** 

### 11 **All right, so, the group is** 

### 12 **unanimous on this. It's essentially a** 

### 13 **clarification.** 

### 14 **MS. MEYERS: This is Karen from** 

### 15 **Rheem. I mean, in our industry, we definitely** 

### 16 **refer to coils and heat exchangers,** 

### 17 **separately.** 

### 18 **So, I mean, is everyone okay with** 

### 19 **this? I mean, because it's -- I mean, I know** 

### 20 **a coil is a heat exchanger, but we definitely** 

### 21 **use coils in some instances, the terminology -** 

### 22 **-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89**  **1 PARTICIPANT: Commercial HVAC,**  

### 2 **Karen, we don't.** 

### 3 **I agree with you, if we're talking** 

### 4 **about residential --** 

### 5 **MS. MEYERS: Okay, you're right.** 

### 6 **You're right.** 

### 7 **MR. DOPPEL: Well, for a furnace,** 

### 8 **that could also be --** 

### 9 **MS. MEYERS: You're right, it's** 

### 10 **commercial.** 

### 11 **MR. DOPPEL: Yes, furnace, that** 

### 12 **could be referred to as a heat exchanger in** 

### 13 **the furnace.** 

### 14 **MS. MEYERS: We know, we've done** 

### 15 **it, I mean, we've got --** 

### 16 **MR. DOPPEL: Yes.** 

### 17 **PARTICIPANT: You have the gas** 

### 18 **heater.** 

### 19 **MR. DOPPEL: Gas-fired heater** 

### 20 **exchanger.** 

### 21 **MS. MEYERS: Okay, never mind. I** 

### 22 **rescind my comment.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90**  **1 MR. EISNER: So, we're okay with**  

### 2 **this, then?** 

### 3 **All right, next issue is** 

### 4 **verification, and we did have three sub-groups** 

### 5 **working. We start off with reports on where** 

### 6 **each of the sub-groups is, and whether you've** 

### 7 **made further progress. Who wants to start** 

### 8 **off?** 

### 9 **MR. AMRANE: If I may, just to --** 

### 10 **this is Karim with AHRI.** 

### 11 **I've requested before, maybe for** 

### 12 **Laura, to give us a little bit of a** 

### 13 **background, as to why DOE believes it has the** 

### 14 **authority to establish verification programs** 

### 15 **paid by manufacturers.** 

### 16 **So, you know, we researched this a** 

### 17 **little bit and we couldn't find anything in** 

### 18 **that guide that gives the authority, so, I** 

### 19 **think it will be good for the group to** 

### 20 **understand, where DOE is coming from.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so, for** 

### 22 **commercial equipment, it gets a little**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91**  **1 convoluted because 42 USC 63.16 adopts the**  

### 2 **provisions sort of piece-mail from the** 

### 3 **consumer products sections.** 

### 4 **So, the authority for commercial** 

### 5 **products is in 63.16, but it references back** 

### 6 **to language in 62.96, I believe. Yes,** 

### 7 **62.96(d).** 

### 8 **MR. DOPPEL: And what was the** 

### 9 **first paragraph that you referred to?** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: 42 USC 63.16, which** 

### 11 **basically incorporates by reference, a lot of** 

### 12 **the provisions from the consumer products** 

### 13 **section. They just didn't repeat all of the** 

### 14 **language.** 

### 15 **So, it references that. So, the** 

### 16 **62.96 language is in the consumer products** 

### 17 **section, but it applies to commercial, and it** 

### 18 **is -- for the purposes of carrying out this** 

### 19 **part, I'm going to leave out a lot of** 

### 20 **language, because there is a lot of stuff in** 

### 21 **here that makes it very convoluted.** 

### 22 **For the purposes of carrying out**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92**  **1 this part, the Secretary may require each**  

### 2 **manufacturer of a covered product to submit** 

### 3 **information with respect to energy efficiency,** 

### 4 **as the Secretary determines may be necessary** 

### 5 **to ensure compliance with the requirements of** 

### 6 **this part.** 

### 7 **We are requiring you to do testing** 

### 8 **and submit information under that section.** 

### 9 **MR. AMRANE: And this is the --** 

### 10 **this is Karim with AHRI.** 

### 11 **This is being -- the idea by DOE** 

### 12 **as mandating manufacturers to go through a** 

### 13 **verification program?** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: It is the same as us** 

### 15 **requiring you to do testing for certification.** 

### 16 **It is as the Secretary determines necessary,** 

### 17 **to ensure compliance, whether it's up front,** 

### 18 **whether it's ongoing.** 

### 19 **MR. STANONIK: This is Frank** 

### 20 **Stanonik. But how is that different than** 

### 21 **enforcement, which is also --** 

### 22 **MR. AMRANE: Right.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93**  **1 MR. STANONIK: -- embedded to**  

### 2 **allow the Secretary to determine compliance?** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: So, enforcement** 

### 4 **falls under each manufacturer of a covered** 

### 5 **product, when requested by the Secretary for** 

### 6 **purposes of ascertaining whether a project --** 

### 7 **product subject to standard is in compliance** 

### 8 **with that standard, or by the Commission.** 

### 9 **That is FTC stuff.** 

### 10 **Each manufacturer of such a** 

### 11 **product shall supply at his expense, a** 

### 12 **reasonable number of such covered products to** 

### 13 **any laboratory designated by the Secretary as** 

### 14 **the case may be.** 

### 15 **Any reasonable charge levied by** 

### 16 **the laboratory for such testing shall be borne** 

### 17 **by the United States.** 

### 18 **So, that is where enforcement** 

### 19 **testing comes in. That is why the** 

### 20 **manufacturers are required to provide the** 

### 21 **units and the Government pays for the testing.** 

### 22 **MR. STANONIK: All right, Frank**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94**  **1 Stanonik. So, the distinction would be that**  

### 2 **if it's enforcement, the Secretary is** 

### 3 **conducting to determine compliance. The bill** 

### 4 **is paid by DOE, but if it's information that** 

### 5 **the Secretary wants from the manufacturer to** 

### 6 **determine compliance --** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 8 **MR. STANONIK: -- the manufacturer** 

### 9 **foots the bill.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 11 **MR. STANONIK: Slightly cynical,** 

### 12 **it's like DOE would never do enforcement,** 

### 13 **because then they don't have to pay for** 

### 14 **anything.** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: But we do.** 

### 16 **MR. STANONIK: Well, at the** 

### 17 **moment, but there is not real verification in** 

### 18 **the --** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: Well --** 

### 20 **MR. STANONIK: -- in the** 

### 21 **regulations, detailing that.** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, obviously,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95**  **1 there are no verification regulations right**  

### 2 **now, at all.** 

### 3 **MR. STANONIK: Yes, right.** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: But there are** 

### 5 **enforcement regulations and the enforcement** 

### 6 **regulations make clear that we pay for that** 

### 7 **testing.** 

### 8 **MR. STANONIK: Okay.** 

### 9 **MR. HURST: How do you determine** 

### 10 **what reasonable is?** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: I mean, a lot of it** 

### 12 **has to do with the rulemaking process and the** 

### 13 **cost-benefit analysis.** 

### 14 **MR. HURST: I mean, is there an** 

### 15 **algorithm or mathematical calculation that** 

### 16 **comes up with --** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: There is a --** 

### 18 **MR. HURST: -- defining a line** 

### 19 **between reasonable and lack of?** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: No, not really.** 

### 21 **MR. HURST: Because your** 

### 22 **reasonable is --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: It's not like a**  

### 2 **mathematical --** 

### 3 **MR. HURST: Your reasonable could** 

### 4 **hypothetically -- you know, Harvey and I could** 

### 5 **disagree on what reasonable is or what the** 

### 6 **burden is.** 

### 7 **MR. SACHS: I can't imagine it.** 

### 8 **MR. HURST: I can't imagine it** 

### 9 **either, but it gets hypothetically --** 

### 10 **MR. THARP: Laura, you're** 

### 11 **referring to 62.96(d)(1)?** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: I believe so.** 

### 13 **MR. THARP: The paragraph? The** 

### 14 **very last sentence there also says, "In making** 

### 15 **any determination," --** 

### 16 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, it does.** 

### 17 **MR. THARP: -- "under this** 

### 18 **paragraph, the Secretary shall consider** 

### 19 **existing public sources of information,** 

### 20 **including nationally recognized," --** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: Certification, yes,** 

### 22 **it certainly does.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97**  **1 MR. THARP: -- "certification."**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, it does.** 

### 3 **MR. THARP: So, that already** 

### 4 **exists, though.** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: Not for everybody.** 

### 6 **MR. THARP: Not for everybody, but** 

### 7 **for those who are members of one it already** 

### 8 **exists.** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: And we are talking** 

### 10 **about verification programs.** 

### 11 **MR. THARP: I get the reason.** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: It is a reason.** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: Any other questions** 

### 14 **or comments?** 

### 15 **All right, what about the progress** 

### 16 **made? Why don't we start with the CRE people?** 

### 17 **In the last two weeks, anything further to** 

### 18 **report?** 

### 19 **MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon.** 

### 20 **There has been several issues that have come** 

### 21 **up and the one thing we are facing right now** 

### 22 **is, we had a very large change in rulemaking.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98**  **1 There is a publication that was**  

### 2 **issued the day after our last meeting, which** 

### 3 **effectively greatly reduced the allowable** 

### 4 **energy consumption proposal on the table part,** 

### 5 **as standard rulemaking -- standard updates.** 

### 6 **Basically, in some of the** 

### 7 **categories, we went -- the standard went as** 

### 8 **far as reduction of up to 75 percent of the** 

### 9 **power allowed in certain categories, and as** 

### 10 **such, the CRE group has a lot of homework to** 

### 11 **be done for rulemaking on October 3rd, plus** 

### 12 **the comment period thereafter.** 

### 13 **As such, several members of the** 

### 14 **CRE would like to extend the deadlines because** 

### 15 **of the sudden change of allotted resources** 

### 16 **available to the CRE group.** 

### 17 **They've dropped in at least two** 

### 18 **solid months of very active, high-priority** 

### 19 **engineering work, into the middle of our laps** 

### 20 **here, for which we hadn't counted on.** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: You're talking about** 

### 22 **raising -- changing the deadline?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99**  **1 MR. HON: Yes.**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: For the rulemaking** 

### 3 **itself?** 

### 4 **MR. HON: Yes.** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: That just came out.** 

### 6 **MR. HON: Does anybody have any** 

### 7 **questions? Do you agree with that one?** 

### 8 **MS. DANE: I didn't personally do** 

### 9 **that one. I mean, it was a group of us.** 

### 10 **MR. HON: Yes, it was a group of -** 

### 11 **- it's certainly the industry as a whole.** 

### 12 **There are individual companies who** 

### 13 **have reviewed the numbers and certain** 

### 14 **categories are not nearly so severe, but other** 

### 15 **categories, they are very, very severe.** 

### 16 **As such, we'll require a lot of** 

### 17 **activity in certain categories.** 

### 18 **So, a lot of the industry is** 

### 19 **asking for push-back on the dates.** 

### 20 **MR. SACHS: I'm sorry, Charlie,** 

### 21 **the dates of which? The DOE process or this** 

### 22 **process?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100**  **1 MR. HON: This process, because**  

### 2 **the DOE process is a separate item completely,** 

### 3 **but allocation of resources have changed** 

### 4 **because they are going to have to be doing** 

### 5 **their engineering work on this, because this** 

### 6 **is a higher priority than certification, at** 

### 7 **this time.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: Other thoughts?** 

### 9 **Response from DOE?** 

### 10 **MS. MEYERS: This is Karen Meyers** 

### 11 **with Rheem. I just had a general comment on** 

### 12 **verification.** 

### 13 **You know, our company supports** 

### 14 **involuntary programs. We believe in** 

### 15 **verification, but having a DOE-mandated** 

### 16 **verification program, to me, it should be a** 

### 17 **broader issue and it's, to me, a little -- you** 

### 18 **know, applying this to commercial HVAC may be** 

### 19 **years in advance, before it gets applied to** 

### 20 **other Federally covered products, really** 

### 21 **increases the regulatory burden.** 

### 22 **And so, you know, we think**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101**  **1 verification should be looked at as a whole**  

### 2 **for all covered products, because it's, you** 

### 3 **know, in our mind, not appropriate for DOE to** 

### 4 **mandate it on commercial HVAC water heaters** 

### 5 **and carriers in commercial refrigeration, as** 

### 6 **well, before it's mandated on all Federally** 

### 7 **covered products.** 

### 8 **You know, so just as a matter of** 

### 9 **policy, you know, we question whether that** 

### 10 **should be -- we should be defining** 

### 11 **verification rules, just for these products,** 

### 12 **because you know, essentially, you know, ours** 

### 13 **could go into effect way before other** 

### 14 **products, and you know, if you're going to do** 

### 15 **a verification, a DOE mandated verification** 

### 16 **program, I think it should be looked at for** 

### 17 **all Federally covered products and it should** 

### 18 **all be treated similarly within the same time** 

### 19 **frame.** 

### 20 **But I would request that the full** 

### 21 **ASRAC committee look at that issue, and I know** 

### 22 **that we are asking --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: I was going to say,**  

### 2 **before we had said we wanted additional time** 

### 3 **for us to continue meeting, but if I'm** 

### 4 **understanding what you're saying correctly,** 

### 5 **you're saying we should go back to ASRAC and** 

### 6 **say, basically, we're done, but ASRAC should** 

### 7 **just -- just like we just did for that, they** 

### 8 **should convene a broader working group for** 

### 9 **more products, or all products, to look at the** 

### 10 **verification issue?** 

### 11 **MS. MEYERS: Right.** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 13 **MR. HUDNALL: Ralph Hudnall. We** 

### 14 **support that position. We'd like to see, if** 

### 15 **there is going to be a verification program** 

### 16 **for Federally covered products, we'd at least** 

### 17 **like to have our stakeholders involved in the** 

### 18 **conversation, as well.** 

### 19 **Something that could be done with** 

### 20 **this group could have while duplications for** 

### 21 **programs that are out there existing, that we** 

### 22 **think more stakeholders should be involved --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103**  **1 should be at the table to have a voting voice**  

### 2 **in those, in the process.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: Thoughts?** 

### 4 **MS. MEYERS: We think it's an** 

### 5 **important subject and would certainly welcome** 

### 6 **the opportunity to participate in a working** 

### 7 **group to discuss this.** 

### 8 **But it needs to be for all covered** 

### 9 **products, at once.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: Other thoughts?** 

### 11 **MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo. I** 

### 12 **have a concern that given the breadth of** 

### 13 **products that DOE covers, having just one** 

### 14 **working group, I mean, I don't think we have** 

### 15 **an auditorium that big, that you can** 

### 16 **accommodate all the interest in that.** 

### 17 **MS. MEYERS: I guess, Tim, that's** 

### 18 **a good point. But I would envision that you** 

### 19 **would have several working groups, and I don't** 

### 20 **know how DOE would structure this on this side** 

### 21 **-- on their side, but meeting at the same** 

### 22 **time.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104**  **1 Certainly, the implementation**  

### 2 **dates should be the same, so that there is not** 

### 3 **increased burden on one sector before another** 

### 4 **sector.** 

### 5 **MR. BALLO: So, your comments is** 

### 6 **isolated to the timing of implementation,** 

### 7 **because I would share the concern that we've** 

### 8 **had enough challenge here between the** 

### 9 **different product groups getting coordinated.** 

### 10 **So, adding more to the mix would** 

### 11 **be tough, but I think specific to what you're** 

### 12 **saying on timing, I agree with.** 

### 13 **MS. MEYERS: Well, I still -- you** 

### 14 **know, I'm a little unclear on the whole** 

### 15 **authority issue, but you know, that is kind of** 

### 16 **a separate issue, but certainly on the timing** 

### 17 **issue, I think that is only fair, that it --** 

### 18 **you know, if the authority issue is resolved,** 

### 19 **and many may think it is resolved, then at** 

### 20 **least the timing ought to be the same.** 

### 21 **MR. HUDNALL: This is Ralph with** 

### 22 **AHAM again, and I appreciate your comments.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105**  **1 It would be a huge group to take -**  

### 2 **- to get down to the nuts and bolts of every** 

### 3 **verification issue, but I also think it's a** 

### 4 **similar situation as the previous discussion** 

### 5 **about the statistical analysis that is such a** 

### 6 **broad topic across all DOE products.** 

### 7 **You could start with one major** 

### 8 **group, that then has breakout sessions for the** 

### 9 **individual products, but the general process** 

### 10 **should be set, this is how DOE is going to do** 

### 11 **it, and again, AHAM would like to be one of** 

### 12 **the stakeholders, or one of the commenters.** 

### 13 **But it should be a larger group,** 

### 14 **to start talking about it, and then we can** 

### 15 **break out into individual processes along the** 

### 16 **way, as we go.** 

### 17 **MR. BALLO: So, maybe one** 

### 18 **suggestion is that this group would just go on** 

### 19 **hiatus until ASRAC can appoint a separate** 

### 20 **group to look at residential products, and** 

### 21 **then the two groups start reconvening again,** 

### 22 **and I don't know if that is -- if it really is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106**  **1 just one other group that would need to be**  

### 2 **made or if there is something --** 

### 3 **MS. MEYERS: It's probably** 

### 4 **industrial. I mean, it's all Federally** 

### 5 **covered products, right.** 

### 6 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 7 **HTP. Just to be clear, what other categories,** 

### 8 **product types are we talking about? How big** 

### 9 **is this issue?** 

### 10 **MS. MEYERS: It's not --** 

### 11 **MR. BALLO: Well, it was --** 

### 12 **MR. HUDNALL: This is Ralph from** 

### 13 **AHAM, but if it's verification, in our** 

### 14 **opinion, it would eventually -- as, I'm sorry,** 

### 15 **Karen said, it would be all covered DOE** 

### 16 **products, which was like 80 different** 

### 17 **categories, lighting and, set-top boxes and** 

### 18 **our products, the home appliance products, all** 

### 19 **of the products.** 

### 20 **Again, that is why I say one** 

### 21 **larger overarching group could then break it** 

### 22 **down into, okay, here is the general process,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 107**  **1 and then the individual groups would determine**  

### 2 **how it fits to their products.** 

### 3 **MR. BALLO: I'm wondering though** 

### 4 **if the one larger overarching group isn't** 

### 5 **really an abstract. I mean, just in that what** 

### 6 **they are --** 

### 7 **MS. MEYERS: It may be.** 

### 8 **MR. HUDNALL: May be.** 

### 9 **MS. MEYERS: Right.** 

### 10 **MR. HUDNALL: Again, I think the** 

### 11 **final comment and the final voting process** 

### 12 **should be maybe -- should include a few more** 

### 13 **people that may or may not be already in it.** 

### 14 **That is the tough part.** 

### 15 **But we don't -- AHAM does not want** 

### 16 **to see a verification program launched that** 

### 17 **has immediate impact on any programs or a** 

### 18 **detrimental impact on the programs we're** 

### 19 **currently running.** 

### 20 **We are running some verification** 

### 21 **programs, and we don't want to see ours** 

### 22 **negatively impacted by things are that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 108**  **1 discussed by a larger group.**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I was going to** 

### 3 **be quiet, but it lasted for 30 seconds.** 

### 4 **PARTICIPANT: Not even that long.** 

### 5 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Surprising, right.** 

### 6 **I don't think you're going to get ASRAC to** 

### 7 **come to conclusions on some of the details** 

### 8 **that you might be -- so, I don't know exactly** 

### 9 **what you're looking for, from ASRAC.** 

### 10 **But you know, to Ralph's point,** 

### 11 **there are some aspects of a verification** 

### 12 **program, I think from the Department's** 

### 13 **perspective, that would probably be** 

### 14 **streamlined for all products.** 

### 15 **That may not be tolerances. That** 

### 16 **may not be selection. That may not be what** 

### 17 **types of labs and where. I don't know** 

### 18 **exactly.** 

### 19 **But there are certain things that** 

### 20 **I think that from the Department's** 

### 21 **perspective, we would find it may need to be** 

### 22 **similar.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 109**  **1 So, I think what -- we could do**  

### 2 **this one -- and that is what I see the larger** 

### 3 **working group, working towards. In other** 

### 4 **words, these are the things of a verification** 

### 5 **program that should be the same across the** 

### 6 **board, no matter what product it is, and these** 

### 7 **are the things that product specific sections** 

### 8 **need to address.** 

### 9 **I don't -- we can ask ASRAC to** 

### 10 **tackle that problem. I have no problem** 

### 11 **asking, but knowing the 12 members, including** 

### 12 **myself on there, I don't think you're going to** 

### 13 **get them to work on that part of it, and the** 

### 14 **detail that is probably needed to come to, but** 

### 15 **we can ask.** 

### 16 **MR. BALLO: That's fine. My only** 

### 17 **concern was that it will be a process to** 

### 18 **convene the big working group --** 

### 19 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It will.** 

### 20 **MR. BALLO: -- and then there will** 

### 21 **be separate processes to convene, once that** 

### 22 **group is established, a bunch of little**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 110**  **1 working groups.**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I guess it depends** 

### 3 **on if you see the little working group formal,** 

### 4 **separate working groups or if you see them** 

### 5 **just being break-outs of the larger working** 

### 6 **group with additional public attendees.** 

### 7 **That is a much easier way to go,** 

### 8 **than doing separate smaller working groups** 

### 9 **with public announcements and the whole 25** 

### 10 **nominations process again.** 

### 11 **If we were -- just knowing the DOE** 

### 12 **process, it would be easier to recommend to** 

### 13 **ASRAC to form a separate verification working** 

### 14 **group. It will be limited to 25 members,** 

### 15 **recognizing that it's 60 covered products.** 

### 16 **Obviously, you know, limited -- it** 

### 17 **would be limited in its attendance.** 

### 18 **That being said, it's open to the** 

### 19 **public. Everyone can come to every meeting** 

### 20 **and voice their opinions and concerns, just** 

### 21 **voting will have to be limited to 25 people,** 

### 22 **period, if that is the way you wanted to go.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 111**  **1 MS. DANE: Ashley, I think -- this**  

### 2 **is Mary from Traulsen.** 

### 3 **My concern would be -- I** 

### 4 **understand that there is -- there is** 

### 5 **verification topics for each individual** 

### 6 **industry and I recognize that, but as you** 

### 7 **said, my concern would be the generic** 

### 8 **application of a manufacturer's designed** 

### 9 **verification program, and I would very much** 

### 10 **want that solved as part of this working** 

### 11 **group, because CRE is kind of a different** 

### 12 **animal than some of the other groups that are** 

### 13 **okay with one existing program. We would like** 

### 14 **to have a manufacturer's option available to** 

### 15 **us.** 

### 16 **So, I would probably, on a -- set** 

### 17 **aside a verification program, although I still** 

### 18 **question whether the DOE can ask manufacturers** 

### 19 **to pay for it, I think at least that should be** 

### 20 **solved.** 

### 21 **So, I would have to vote `no' that** 

### 22 **we set it aside.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 112**  **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.**  

### 2 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 3 **AHRI. I mean, Ashley, when you were talking** 

### 4 **about okay, if ASRAC set up a separate working** 

### 5 **group, it would be limited to 25.** 

### 6 **Would there be anything that** 

### 7 **constrains ASRAC from setting up two working** 

### 8 **groups, one for residential verification and** 

### 9 **one for commercial, recognizing you have to** 

### 10 **trust ASRAC to say, establish the** 

### 11 **commonalities or recommend the commonalities,** 

### 12 **where they exist. That way, you would open up** 

### 13 **participation.** 

### 14 **MS. ARMSTRONG: That would be** 

### 15 **fine. I mean, you can recommend to ASRAC, to** 

### 16 **do 1 to 20. I mean, it would not -- really,** 

### 17 **you can recommend whatever you guys can agree** 

### 18 **to here, to ASRAC. It's really up to you, how** 

### 19 **you see this working.** 

### 20 **The Department has received some,** 

### 21 **I would say inquiries and questions and** 

### 22 **concerns from manufacturers not represented by**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 113**  **1 this group, about the establishment or the**  

### 2 **agreement of any verification program and the** 

### 3 **potential application of it to them, since** 

### 4 **they are not represented here.** 

### 5 **MR. THARP: Actually, I think that** 

### 6 **we're -- you're allowed more than 25, if the** 

### 7 **Department head determines it necessary,** 

### 8 **because Title 5.565-something-something(b)** 

### 9 **membership, the Agency shall admit membership** 

### 10 **on a negotiated rulemaking committee to 25** 

### 11 **members, unless the Agency head determines** 

### 12 **that a greater number of members are necessary** 

### 13 **for the functioning of the committee or to** 

### 14 **achieve balanced membership.** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: It's really a** 

### 16 **question. It is not mandatory at the very** 

### 17 **beginning of the statute, it gives the Agency** 

### 18 **the authority to set it up in any other way** 

### 19 **that it deems appropriate for the potential** 

### 20 **circumstances.** 

### 21 **The 25 is generally used because** 

### 22 **looking around the room, it's about the most**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 114**  **1 people you can get around a decent size**  

### 2 **conference table, where people can effectively** 

### 3 **participate also, otherwise too many people** 

### 4 **are talking and you don't get a chance to get** 

### 5 **into the debate until an hour and a half goes** 

### 6 **by.** 

### 7 **So, the experts say you don't want** 

### 8 **to go above 25, you shouldn't go above 25, but** 

### 9 **if you've got good reasons for doing it, you** 

### 10 **can, but we're not talking about 50 or 75. I** 

### 11 **don't think it would have effective** 

### 12 **negotiations.** 

### 13 **You know, one of the issues you** 

### 14 **have here, that I'm hearing around the table** 

### 15 **is, well, we need to have some general** 

### 16 **parameters established. We need to have** 

### 17 **multiple sub-groups that are then established** 

### 18 **to go back and work on their areas, and then** 

### 19 **this group, we were already establishing** 

### 20 **multiple sub-groups, to go back to their** 

### 21 **areas.** 

### 22 **MR. THARP: I just thought it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 115**  **1 might be easier for DOE if there was one big**  

### 2 **group and then several sub-groups that broke** 

### 3 **out.** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: Well, the question** 

### 5 **is, could you put together a group in this** 

### 6 **industry, and I don't know, could you put** 

### 7 **together a group that would cover all the** 

### 8 **covered products, that could set reasonable** 

### 9 **parameters for the substantive sub-groups to** 

### 10 **then break out and do what they need to do?** 

### 11 **We're having, as you saw, our own** 

### 12 **problems here, with a group that has been** 

### 13 **working together very, very well for a few** 

### 14 **months.** 

### 15 **MR. THARP: Right.** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: And I'm not saying it** 

### 17 **can't happen, but you really have to think** 

### 18 **about how you'd set that up.** 

### 19 **By the way, one of the things you** 

### 20 **do in order to make sure that the process will** 

### 21 **work well is, you don't just -- ASRAC doesn't** 

### 22 **come back and say, "DOE set up these**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 116**  **1 regulatory negotiation groups for each one of**  

### 2 **them," that what they did here was they picked** 

### 3 **a neutral convener who went out and talked to** 

### 4 **many of you, to find out if you'd come to the** 

### 5 **table and negotiate in good faith.** 

### 6 **So, you'd have to do that for each** 

### 7 **of the committees. We're hearing from others** 

### 8 **who would want to participate, but there may** 

### 9 **be people who would not effectively** 

### 10 **participate.** 

### 11 **So, there is a lot to think about,** 

### 12 **a lot that has to be done.** 

### 13 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 14 **HTP. My concern would be, if we go to a** 

### 15 **larger group than this, then the ones that are** 

### 16 **going to be whittled out will be the smaller** 

### 17 **manufacturers.** 

### 18 **You'll have more trade** 

### 19 **associations involved. You'll have the larger** 

### 20 **manufacturers. It will be difficult to have** 

### 21 **equal footing for all different sizes of** 

### 22 **businesses.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 117**  **1 MR. EISNER: And it's required to**  

### 2 **have a balance, and that is -- may be a** 

### 3 **problem. Can you effectively have a balance** 

### 4 **of the people?** 

### 5 **It's not just small businesses.** 

### 6 **It's not just major manufacturers. It's the** 

### 7 **Harvey's and the Tim's, also, and there may be** 

### 8 **multiple ones of those for some of these other** 

### 9 **segments.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: I'm not saying it** 

### 11 **couldn't work, but you should be giving some** 

### 12 **thought to how it could be done.** 

### 13 **You also have to think about** 

### 14 **whether what you're working on here, and what** 

### 15 **I was hearing from my perspective, was each of** 

### 16 **the sub-groups we established was going into** 

### 17 **another room and starting to come up with** 

### 18 **something that would be very, very different** 

### 19 **from the second and third ones, and maybe** 

### 20 **everybody was going to be willing to live with** 

### 21 **something different for each of these groups,** 

### 22 **which would mean that a group like yours might**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 118**  **1 not have a problem with what came out of here.**  

### 2 **I don't know, because they may** 

### 3 **say, "We've got something very specific to** 

### 4 **CRE." Others may say, "Well, we have** 

### 5 **something very, very specific for HVAC, and** 

### 6 **here is why we think DOE should accept unique** 

### 7 **standards for each of these segments."** 

### 8 **If that is what they base it on,** 

### 9 **that may not cause a problem for the other --** 

### 10 **the other covered entities, but again, I don't** 

### 11 **know how we're going to resolve this. We're** 

### 12 **having enough problems in the last meeting.** 

### 13 **MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I** 

### 14 **think that the biggest issue we face here is** 

### 15 **that the difference in the types of** 

### 16 **manufacture, whether it be commodity, high** 

### 17 **volume manufacturing versus specialty high** 

### 18 **technology, low-volume equipment.** 

### 19 **There is vast differences, and I** 

### 20 **do not see how any single set of standards** 

### 21 **would ever come them all.** 

### 22 **So, statistics get very dicey,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 119**  **1 when you get into the low-volume groups.**  

### 2 **Statistics on high-volume production are** 

### 3 **pretty straight forward.** 

### 4 **So, I think that the Agency has to** 

### 5 **be realistic, but also, when you look in this** 

### 6 **room, and we have some of everything in this** 

### 7 **room. We have that very high-volume** 

### 8 **manufacturing. We have very small-volume** 

### 9 **manufacturing and we have a very, very** 

### 10 **expensive extremely low-volume manufacturing** 

### 11 **all in this room.** 

### 12 **So, we do cover the gamut of most** 

### 13 **of the major problems, but we don't find the** 

### 14 **commonality, and I think that we can see it** 

### 15 **from the scope of this room, that we're** 

### 16 **crossing paths right now.** 

### 17 **MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with** 

### 18 **Rheem, and you know, we have test procedures** 

### 19 **for all of the -- you know, that cover all the** 

### 20 **different covered products. Certification** 

### 21 **programs are a little bit different.** 

### 22 **I think that verification programs**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 120**  **1 would need to follow that, but I still go back**  

### 2 **to my comment that the timing needs to be** 

### 3 **synchronized between all the covered products.** 

### 4 **It is, to me, not fair to impose** 

### 5 **additional regulatory burden on the industries** 

### 6 **represented in this room, versus lighting,** 

### 7 **transformers, refrigerators, freezers, all** 

### 8 **these other covered products that currently do** 

### 9 **not have a verification program.** 

### 10 **So, I go back to my point that if,** 

### 11 **in fact, DOE does have the authority, and** 

### 12 **again, I'm still, you know, trying to get my** 

### 13 **head around that, that the verification burden** 

### 14 **should apply to all covered products at the** 

### 15 **same time.** 

### 16 **Still, you know, I agree that** 

### 17 **they're all going to have to be a little bit** 

### 18 **different to fit those industries, we've** 

### 19 **certainly determined that within this room** 

### 20 **already.** 

### 21 **But it certainly should -- I think** 

### 22 **the timing needs to be coordinated, because if**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 121**  **1 another covered product doesn't have their**  

### 2 **verification program decided for seven or** 

### 3 **eight years, you know, then you know, to me,** 

### 4 **that is not fair to the industries.** 

### 5 **So, essentially, it stays the** 

### 6 **same. I mean, we still are going to** 

### 7 **participate in a voluntary verification** 

### 8 **program. Some people in our industry will** 

### 9 **not, but you know, we do need to probably work** 

### 10 **towards some type of Federal program, but it** 

### 11 **needs to be coordinated and everyone, I think** 

### 12 **needs to be treated the same, since they're** 

### 13 **going to be treated the same on the CCMS** 

### 14 **database.** 

### 15 **MR. BALLO: So, I mean, one** 

### 16 **possibility would be to continue the work of** 

### 17 **this group with the idea that if that is a big** 

### 18 **concern, that the -- whatever we decide on** 

### 19 **wouldn't take effect, until there is a similar** 

### 20 **process for other products.** 

### 21 **But I do think it would be a value** 

### 22 **to have -- to sort of let this group complete**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 122**  **1 its work and have that as a model for other**  

### 2 **products. I don't know, maybe that is not** 

### 3 **valuable.** 

### 4 **MS. MEYERS: Well, I would** 

### 5 **certainly like to get the input of the other** 

### 6 **groups not in -- the other industries not** 

### 7 **covered in this room.** 

### 8 **MR. BALLO: Right.** 

### 9 **MS. MEYERS: I don't know that we** 

### 10 **should be setting the standard for these other** 

### 11 **industries that we don't know anything about.** 

### 12 **So, that would be my only concern** 

### 13 **with that, is that we may be forcing other** 

### 14 **industries to somewhat -- I mean, if we set** 

### 15 **this model, you know, is that fair to** 

### 16 **transformers? I don't know.** 

### 17 **I don't know. Maybe we're letting** 

### 18 **them off easy. I don't know.** 

### 19 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 20 **HTP. I think there is an opportunity for** 

### 21 **compromise here.** 

### 22 **If we do one product per year, for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 123**  **1 each of their product categories, basic model**  

### 2 **groups, however you want to phrase it, then** 

### 3 **we're doing something towards the DOE, and** 

### 4 **that is as small of the burden as the** 

### 5 **manufacturers could undertake reasonably, to** 

### 6 **have the effort to implement the Federal** 

### 7 **minimum verification testing.** 

### 8 **It is definitely not an over** 

### 9 **burden for anyone in the room. We've already** 

### 10 **agreed on each of their product sections, to** 

### 11 **do more than that in the upcoming proposal.** 

### 12 **But if your concern is truly that** 

### 13 **the 10 million BTU commercial boiler is going** 

### 14 **to have a significant disadvantage over a** 

### 15 **television set, then I think one product a** 

### 16 **year is something reasonable, that all the** 

### 17 **manufacturers could step up to the plate and** 

### 18 **do, if that is what the DOE truly wants.** 

### 19 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 20 **AHRI. That may certainly be a way to eat the** 

### 21 **elephant, but I think what, as Laura was** 

### 22 **educating us here, as to where this authority**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 124**  **1 is coming from, I mean, the basic premise is**  

### 2 **that DOE has the authority to request** 

### 3 **information to determine compliance, and that** 

### 4 **is kind of the very short Cliff note, okay.** 

### 5 **And it seems to me that if you** 

### 6 **say, "Okay, that is the case," then there** 

### 7 **would -- I would believe, be a high likelihood** 

### 8 **you could develop a -- let's call it a set of** 

### 9 **guidelines to say, okay, this is the** 

### 10 **information that -- you know, can be requested** 

### 11 **or whatever. You know, maybe that's a little** 

### 12 **-- maybe that's getting a little too much --** 

### 13 **you know, DOE is going to say, personal** 

### 14 **business.** 

### 15 **But it seems to me, there could be** 

### 16 **some definition to say, okay, in looking for** 

### 17 **information that would be useful for** 

### 18 **determining this compliance, here is the kind** 

### 19 **of information that would be -- all industries** 

### 20 **should consider having available. Let's put** 

### 21 **it that way.** 

### 22 **But I think, you know, that can be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 125**  **1 to some degree, a baseline and as people have**  

### 2 **said, it may be a little different for each** 

### 3 **industry, as to how you might make that** 

### 4 **information available or under what** 

### 5 **conditions.** 

### 6 **But I think there is a way to** 

### 7 **define that baseline, and say, here is the** 

### 8 **kind of stuff any manufacturer should have** 

### 9 **available, if ever they get the call from the** 

### 10 **Secretary that says, "Hey, can you just kind** 

### 11 **of show me how you're complying?"** 

### 12 **MR. THARP: Some other things we** 

### 13 **need to remember also, Rusty Tharp, Goodman.** 

### 14 **Karen would probably point this** 

### 15 **out, if I didn't, that if there is a** 

### 16 **verification program that is specified by** 

### 17 **Department of Energy, and it's on the DOE's** 

### 18 **website, there will be manufacturers who say,** 

### 19 **"My ratings are valid because they've verified** 

### 20 **by DOE."** 

### 21 **If it's just one per year, that is** 

### 22 **not equivalent to those that are at 20 percent**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 126**  **1 per year, and so, it's -- would appear to be**  

### 2 **a level playing field to consumers, that in** 

### 3 **reality, it's not.** 

### 4 **So, just, we need to keep that in** 

### 5 **mind, as we have this discussion.** 

### 6 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I** 

### 7 **appreciate these.** 

### 8 **I'd like to roll back these** 

### 9 **comments, and I'd like to roll back though, to** 

### 10 **the item which we accepted by consensus, a** 

### 11 **little while ago, because I think that had the** 

### 12 **goal of setting in motion, a process whose** 

### 13 **outcome would require sensitivity to the needs** 

### 14 **of different industries and industry sectors.** 

### 15 **In that sense, I am a little less** 

### 16 **afraid of it being generalized than I'm** 

### 17 **hearing some people, and I would expect that** 

### 18 **the outcome of that process, Rusty, would be** 

### 19 **one that would recognize that there are** 

### 20 **different sampling requirements for products** 

### 21 **with different characteristics, including** 

### 22 **volume and cost.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 127**  **1 MR. THARP: Agreed.**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: So, I think that** 

### 3 **framework is going to be useful for addressing** 

### 4 **the concerns that have been expressed, but I** 

### 5 **may be missing something.** 

### 6 **MR. THARP: Yes, and I agree with** 

### 7 **you, Harvey, that --** 

### 8 **MS. HOOTMAN: But that doesn't** 

### 9 **include verification, right?** 

### 10 **MR. THARP: Right, this is --** 

### 11 **MR. SACHS: It doesn't --** 

### 12 **MS. HOOTMAN: It did not say** 

### 13 **verification.** 

### 14 **MR. THARP: This is statistics** 

### 15 **only.** 

### 16 **MR. SACHS: I'm sorry, it says** 

### 17 **enforcement and I guess I assumed that that** 

### 18 **includes verification, and I may be wrong.** 

### 19 **MS. HOOTMAN: Laura, shake your** 

### 20 **head. Thank you.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: No.** 

### 22 **MR. SACHS: We mark this up to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 128**  **1 error number three for Harvey today.**  

### 2 **MR. BAUMAN: We decided to include** 

### 3 **verification, right? I think where we got to** 

### 4 **on this point is, you go back to the original** 

### 5 **list.** 

### 6 **Okay, how do we -- what people are** 

### 7 **certifying on, not the Department is** 

### 8 **certifying it or verifying it, and the** 

### 9 **manufacturers are certifying their numbers.** 

### 10 **How does that become trustworthy?** 

### 11 **I think as I recall, the** 

### 12 **discussion of verification was the Department** 

### 13 **thinks -- felt that that was a good way to** 

### 14 **help, as opposed to other means that could be** 

### 15 **used to potentially ensure the integrity, and** 

### 16 **basically, enforcing the numbers that are** 

### 17 **published.** 

### 18 **So, you know, going back to kind** 

### 19 **of that basic question, you know, do we need** 

### 20 **a verification program, and I think we're** 

### 21 **getting back to that and I think as we've** 

### 22 **expressed from the CRE, we've heard a lot**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 129**  **1 about safety.**  

### 2 **The conference calls, more so than** 

### 3 **people within this room, and a lot of vocal** 

### 4 **conversations we've had on people saying,** 

### 5 **"Hey," and the question about authority, and** 

### 6 **I appreciate the clarification, Laura, and I** 

### 7 **think that is something that -- people outside** 

### 8 **of this room, I think and even some inside** 

### 9 **this room, kind of stepping back and getting** 

### 10 **the impression, hey, we're kind of going above** 

### 11 **and beyond what people thought was going to go** 

### 12 **on here.** 

### 13 **Maybe that happens, but I think** 

### 14 **again, the report that John put together also,** 

### 15 **I mean, we've said we're going to break** 

### 16 **verification out separately, is that correct?** 

### 17 **The report to ASRAC?** 

### 18 **MS. ARMSTRONG: No.** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, yes, I mean,** 

### 20 **we transmitted the --** 

### 21 **MR. BAUMAN: Yes.** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: -- the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 130**  **1 certification. ASRAC has that.**  

### 2 **MR. BAUMAN: Correct.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: Verification is --** 

### 4 **MS. ARMSTRONG: But not to a** 

### 5 **separate group. That is the difference.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. BAUMAN: Well, but the** 

### 8 **separate rulemaking --** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: Then we need to talk** 

### 10 **about --** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: All right,** 

### 12 **separate --** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: We're talking about** 

### 14 **separate reports.** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Separate reports,** 

### 16 **yes, absolutely.** 

### 17 **MR. BAUMAN: Okay, I mean, that** 

### 18 **report could say this working group thinks it** 

### 19 **should be considered as a separate rulemaking,** 

### 20 **I would guess. We could say that, okay.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: I think we said** 

### 22 **something along --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 131**  **1 PARTICIPANT: I think the report**  

### 2 **says verification.** 

### 3 **MR. BAUMAN: Okay, that is --** 

### 4 **okay, that is what I thought it was.** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. BAUMAN: So, now, we're** 

### 7 **talking about this would potentially be a** 

### 8 **whole other set of rulemaking.** 

### 9 **I think, again, people outside** 

### 10 **this room, and some inside here, would like to** 

### 11 **see that for the reasons we've discussed.** 

### 12 **People come back to us and say, "Hey, is there** 

### 13 **really, you know, an opportunity there, or do** 

### 14 **you really need this program," and kind of** 

### 15 **going back and answering that basic question.** 

### 16 **I think we are all kind of going** 

### 17 **along the assumption that that is mainly, or** 

### 18 **you know, non-unanimous consensus that** 

### 19 **verification is needed, but I think that is** 

### 20 **still an unresolved issue for a lot of people.** 

### 21 **So, if you phase it out separately** 

### 22 **and go back to the basic question, and is that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 132**  **1 a question that this group needs to revisit,**  

### 2 **do we need a verification program?** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: So, I thought I** 

### 4 **heard you say that perhaps, and maybe what you** 

### 5 **were saying was talking to people outside this** 

### 6 **room, within your product area, and what --** 

### 7 **the way I interpreted that was, talking to** 

### 8 **people outside of this room, not part of this** 

### 9 **working group, subject area at all.** 

### 10 **So, maybe I took your statement a** 

### 11 **little bit too broadly.** 

### 12 **MR. BAUMAN: The people within the** 

### 13 **industry, but I think it also -- when you talk** 

### 14 **about expanding, there is also a sense of** 

### 15 **fairness I think, people are concerned about,** 

### 16 **that hey, others -- as Karen said previously,** 

### 17 **other manufacturers aren't doing this. Why** 

### 18 **should we be doing this?** 

### 19 **I think the idea of expanding that** 

### 20 **to verification of all commercial products** 

### 21 **and/or all residential products would give** 

### 22 **people outside of this room and people within**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 133**  **1 this room, a better sense of fairness for any**  

### 2 **potential verification program.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: So, it sounds like** 

### 4 **you're supporting the idea of convening a new** 

### 5 **broader group, working group.** 

### 6 **MR. BAUMAN: Yes, yes, is that the** 

### 7 **question to be answered, or to be recommended** 

### 8 **to ASRAC by this group?** 

### 9 **MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with** 

### 10 **Mitsubishi. So, are you going to, in the** 

### 11 **future then, for products under 65,000** 

### 12 **institute a verification program for those?** 

### 13 **PARTICIPANT: Residential.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: Residential.** 

### 15 **MR. DOPPEL: Residential?** 

### 16 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that is** 

### 17 **the question, right? I mean, I think that was** 

### 18 **Karen's point, not to maybe -- I'm going to** 

### 19 **say it a different way, but in other words, if** 

### 20 **you were to -- and maybe that is some** 

### 21 **concerns, that the Department has been getting** 

### 22 **over the past week, that if this group comes**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 134**  **1 out with negotiations which effectively**  

### 2 **institute a mandatory verification program for** 

### 3 **certain parts of the regulatory phase, that** 

### 4 **DOE then on its own, extend that by default to** 

### 5 **other parts.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Do you people end up** 

### 7 **with whatever we agree to, without ever** 

### 8 **getting a sit at the table?** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Without getting a** 

### 10 **say, and so, the question, you know, want to** 

### 11 **be asked from other -- from someone not** 

### 12 **represented here is then, to form the separate** 

### 13 **group that is maybe more overarching as a** 

### 14 **cross-section, to start, realizing that some** 

### 15 **of the things like number of products tested** 

### 16 **annually, how they are tested and stuff like** 

### 17 **that, may be product specific and need** 

### 18 **separate working groups, like you guys have** 

### 19 **done in your break-out sessions.** 

### 20 **But the whole idea of whether** 

### 21 **there fundamentally should be one and what** 

### 22 **that process might look like would be more of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 135**  **1 an overarching committee represented by**  

### 2 **residential, commercial, all different types** 

### 3 **of products alike.** 

### 4 **Because I mean, if you guys come** 

### 5 **up -- like, to your point, Paul, I mean, if** 

### 6 **you guys come up with commercial HVAC rules,** 

### 7 **which you guys seem to be in the previous** 

### 8 **weeks, you know, pretty far along in your** 

### 9 **agreement there, at least internally in your** 

### 10 **working group, I mean, would you want those** 

### 11 **applied to all other products you make period,** 

### 12 **across the board?** 

### 13 **Maybe the answer is yes. Maybe the** 

### 14 **answer is no. I don't know, but I think that** 

### 15 **is the fundamental question.** 

### 16 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. I** 

### 17 **think there is another fundamental question.** 

### 18 **What is DOE's position here?** 

### 19 **I mean, is DOE's intent to mandate** 

### 20 **a verification program in the first place or** 

### 21 **it just --** 

### 22 **PARTICIPANT: For all products.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 136**  **1 MR. AMRANE: For all products,**  

### 2 **yes, I'm not talking about just commercial** 

### 3 **here. What is the intent of DOE? We don't --** 

### 4 **we haven't heard that from you.** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: So, we haven't** 

### 6 **talked about other products, because that is** 

### 7 **not within the scope of this working group.** 

### 8 **As I've stated, DOE sees value in** 

### 9 **having a verification program, and for the** 

### 10 **same reasons that apply to these products,** 

### 11 **apply to all products.** 

### 12 **So, from our perspective, there is** 

### 13 **value and the value is not unique to these** 

### 14 **products. The value is in having a higher** 

### 15 **level of certainty that the representations** 

### 16 **being made that a product meets the standards,** 

### 17 **what those representations are. Those are --** 

### 18 **there is value regardless of the product type.** 

### 19 **It's not like we're ultra** 

### 20 **skeptical about your products and we think you** 

### 21 **need extra scrutiny.** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 137**  **1 the other thing is that, you know, this is one**  

### 2 **of the things -- I mean, from the Department's** 

### 3 **perspective, this is one of the things that** 

### 4 **you guys asked to put on the agenda, which is** 

### 5 **why it's there.** 

### 6 **It wasn't necessarily one that the** 

### 7 **Department asked to be on the agenda.** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, this is true.** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, to the -- to** 

### 10 **your point about what is the Department's** 

### 11 **position on this, I don't know that we really** 

### 12 **have one.** 

### 13 **We are waiting to see what you** 

### 14 **guys wanted and came up with, before we** 

### 15 **articulated anything because to date, we don't** 

### 16 **have a verification program on the books.** 

### 17 **MS. HOOTMAN: In all honesty, this** 

### 18 **is Jill with Trane, when we put it on there,** 

### 19 **I think I used verification and certification** 

### 20 **synonymously.** 

### 21 **They were, in my mind, the same** 

### 22 **thing. So, as we've gotten along this process**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 138**  **1 and gotten a whole lot more educated, you**  

### 2 **know, I didn't think of verification as the** 

### 3 **same, you know, as something different than** 

### 4 **certification. It was that these models were** 

### 5 **being --** 

### 6 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It is assessment.** 

### 7 **MS. HOOTMAN: -- portrayed and** 

### 8 **assessments, right.** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 10 **MS. HOOTMAN: So, there is a lot** 

### 11 **in the language that we all used there, and** 

### 12 **maybe we did put it forward, not really** 

### 13 **understanding that until we've gotten into** 

### 14 **this and made more --** 

### 15 **MR. DOPPEL: Well, the other part** 

### 16 **of that, Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi, is that** 

### 17 **knowing that all the products would have to be** 

### 18 **listed on a DOE website, then that created a** 

### 19 **concern about who was going to check to make** 

### 20 **sure that all those products were meeting what** 

### 21 **they were being certified to, if they were not** 

### 22 **members of a verification program.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 139**  **1 You know, so, kind of the model**  

### 2 **that is already out there is the residential,** 

### 3 **where everybody is listed and it's -- I think** 

### 4 **that the number of models that are listed at** 

### 5 **AHRI is very close to the models that are** 

### 6 **listed on the DOE website.** 

### 7 **So, it means there are not too** 

### 8 **many other players out there, unless they're** 

### 9 **way, way below the radar.** 

### 10 **So, it seems that now that -- it** 

### 11 **looks like the true assessments and maybe some** 

### 12 **enforcement of the DOE is in effect, verifying** 

### 13 **what is already out there for the residential** 

### 14 **products, just by using assessment and** 

### 15 **enforcement.** 

### 16 **MS. BARHYDT: I don't think I** 

### 17 **followed that.** 

### 18 **MS. ARMSTRONG: We are, I mean,** 

### 19 **basically saying -- we are testing, if that is** 

### 20 **what you're getting at.** 

### 21 **MR. DOPPEL: Yes.** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: We are doing some**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 140**  **1 testing, in the residential and commercial**  

### 2 **space, period.** 

### 3 **Now, whether that should take the** 

### 4 **place of formalized testing, we've had a** 

### 5 **number of different asks over time, and some** 

### 6 **would argue for a mandatory verification** 

### 7 **program, some would argue that they want DOE** 

### 8 **to not test their product, that they're part** 

### 9 **of a verification program. Some will argue** 

### 10 **that -- in other words, it's all some part of** 

### 11 **DOE doing some part of the process differently** 

### 12 **than it does now.** 

### 13 **So, to the extent we want to** 

### 14 **commence a working group to kind of tackle** 

### 15 **those types of issues, how do industry** 

### 16 **verification programs work in the space where** 

### 17 **DOE is also testing? And how do we utilize so** 

### 18 **that we're both benefitting and not doing the** 

### 19 **same type of testing on the same products, and** 

### 20 **getting the best outcomes and reducing the** 

### 21 **burden, as much as possible? And that's the** 

### 22 **goal, right?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 141**  **1 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with**  

### 2 **AHRI. Aren't you doing it already, for** 

### 3 **example?** 

### 4 **MS. ARMSTRONG: What?** 

### 5 **MR. AMRANE: I mean, maybe you can** 

### 6 **elaborate a little bit more about what you --** 

### 7 **what kind of agreement you have with AHAM, for** 

### 8 **example, on the assessment test. What is it,** 

### 9 **that you do?** 

### 10 **MS. ARMSTRONG: We have an** 

### 11 **agreement with AHAM on Energy Star** 

### 12 **verification for clothes washers, dish washers** 

### 13 **and refrigerators.** 

### 14 **It says the Department will not** 

### 15 **test those products that participate in the** 

### 16 **AHAM program for Energy Star levels and above** 

### 17 **only, as long as there is a variety of** 

### 18 **conditions that the Department and AHAM have** 

### 19 **agreed to and are met.** 

### 20 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I got** 

### 21 **a sense that one of the clouds darkening the** 

### 22 **room now is how the verification and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 142**  **1 enforcement processes will handle commercial**  

### 2 **HVAC less than 65,000 BTUs, which is rated to** 

### 3 **the residential standard.** 

### 4 **I want to make sure that I** 

### 5 **understand where we are now. First of all,** 

### 6 **it's tested to the residential standard.** 

### 7 **Secondly, it's all three phase, and thirdly,** 

### 8 **the shipment volumes are in the range of 10** 

### 9 **percent reps less of those for the residential** 

### 10 **comparable single phase products.** 

### 11 **Now, it seems to me that, in** 

### 12 **general, industry practice would likely to be** 

### 13 **to substitute a three phase compressor for the** 

### 14 **single phase and otherwise leave the product** 

### 15 **as untouched as you can. I mean, there would** 

### 16 **still be some single phase stuff, I guess.** 

### 17 **If that is the general practice,** 

### 18 **is it possible for us to reach an agreement** 

### 19 **that either the under 65,000 BTU stuff will** 

### 20 **get the same verification regime as** 

### 21 **residential products, or that it will get the** 

### 22 **regime of commercial products and sort of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 143**  **1 settle it, rather than having the uncertainty**  

### 2 **that's influencing our conversations on what** 

### 3 **I'd like to call the truly commercial products** 

### 4 **from SPVU on up?** 

### 5 **MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel** 

### 6 **from Mitsubishi.** 

### 7 **You know, I think essentially DOE** 

### 8 **is getting the benefit of a verification** 

### 9 **program on three phase below 65,000 and** 

### 10 **residential 65,000, you know, based on the** 

### 11 **current assessment testing that they're doing.** 

### 12 **And also on the input that they're getting** 

### 13 **from AHRI, which is if there are any products** 

### 14 **that have to be re-rated, then that report is** 

### 15 **given to -- re-rated due to test failure, that** 

### 16 **that information is provided to DOE.** 

### 17 **So, essentially, there is a kind** 

### 18 **of verification program already in existence** 

### 19 **for those residential products.** 

### 20 **MR. SACHS: I understand and** 

### 21 **appreciate that, but I'm -- as someone else** 

### 22 **earlier this morning said, I'm trying to think**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 144**  **1 about at least much theoretically, to see if**  

### 2 **we can choose one team or the other.** 

### 3 **Is this to be verified like residential or** 

### 4 **verified like commercial?** 

### 5 **I think I could be completely** 

### 6 **comfortably either way. I'm looking for what** 

### 7 **works best for the Department and the** 

### 8 **manufacturers.** 

### 9 **MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with** 

### 10 **AAON, and just to build on what you said.** 

### 11 **You also have to realize that the three phase** 

### 12 **under 65,000 is also a very significant part** 

### 13 **of the commercial market.** 

### 14 **You know, so, which is much smaller than the** 

### 15 **residential market in the first place.** 

### 16 **So, you know, you can't -- I think** 

### 17 **that has to be factored into this whole** 

### 18 **discussion, that that is a very big part of** 

### 19 **the dollar volume of commercial equipment sold** 

### 20 **is in that bucket, and you're right, it is** 

### 21 **being rated with the residential or consumer** 

### 22 **products type standards.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 145**  **1 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, I know on the --**  

### 2 **in support of what you're saying, I believe** 

### 3 **that the number is like two-thirds of the** 

### 4 **65,000 product shift, single package are three** 

### 5 **phase, something along those lines. So,** 

### 6 **you're exactly right. Not single phase -- not** 

### 7 **split system.** 

### 8 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again.** 

### 9 **Across the totality of split and packaged,** 

### 10 **it's in the range of 10 percent, I think.** 

### 11 **MR. AMRANE: Yes, you're right,** 

### 12 **you're right.** 

### 13 **MR. SACHS: Okay, so, what you're** 

### 14 **saying is that there may be an additional** 

### 15 **dimension of this kind of split out, of** 

### 16 **package being treated differently than single** 

### 17 **-- than split.** 

### 18 **I don't know, but I'm just asking** 

### 19 **if there is clean way that we can make our** 

### 20 **problems easier to deal with.** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: Everybody's out of** 

### 22 **words?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 146**  **1 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with**  

### 2 **AHRI. Let me suggest something, and I think** 

### 3 **what I would like to see, at least from DOE,** 

### 4 **is a framework. What do you want, as DOE, to** 

### 5 **apply for all products, for example?** 

### 6 **So, that this way we can react to** 

### 7 **something, because right now we've been** 

### 8 **spinning our wheels. You have one group doing** 

### 9 **something, you have another group doing** 

### 10 **something very different, and at the end of** 

### 11 **the day, I think Ashley mentioned that you** 

### 12 **want a set of at least requirements that would** 

### 13 **apply, you know, across all products.** 

### 14 **So, I think that is what we need,** 

### 15 **and that document should only be -- should be** 

### 16 **for all products, not just commercial** 

### 17 **products. This should include also** 

### 18 **residential product, because that is what you** 

### 19 **intend to do here, to cover everything.** 

### 20 **So, then maybe we can react to** 

### 21 **something like that.** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, okay, I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 147**  **1 don't think be default, we intend to -- so,**  

### 2 **for example, if the working group -- if one** 

### 3 **of the sections of the working groups here** 

### 4 **voted to have a mandatory verification program** 

### 5 **and voted, you know, yes, these are the** 

### 6 **constructs of my verification program, I don't** 

### 7 **think by default, DOE is just going to say,** 

### 8 **"Okay, everybody else do this." I don't think** 

### 9 **that was the intent.** 

### 10 **So, sorry, if I misstated it that** 

### 11 **way. I just think that there have been some** 

### 12 **concerns that DOE -- voiced to DOE, that DOE** 

### 13 **would do that or that certain people would be** 

### 14 **-- you know, if DOE decided to venture into** 

### 15 **the topic of a verification program for** 

### 16 **another industry or another regulated product** 

### 17 **that was not part of this, so, say, I'm just** 

### 18 **going to make up something, shower heads, my** 

### 19 **favorite -- Laura's favorite topic. That, you** 

### 20 **know, that all of a sudden, certain things** 

### 21 **that were negotiated here would be** 

### 22 **automatically by default brought into those as**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 148**  **1 the de facto.**  

### 2 **And I don't think, necessarily,** 

### 3 **that is DOE's position that it would be the** 

### 4 **case. But I do think that there are certain** 

### 5 **things that would come out, like when the** 

### 6 **Department is notified and how those types of** 

### 7 **things, process-type things that probably** 

### 8 **would need to be the same across the board,** 

### 9 **unless there is a specific reason that they be** 

### 10 **different.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: So, Karim, it's** 

### 12 **sounding to me like you are sort of seconding** 

### 13 **the idea that the discussion should happen in** 

### 14 **a framework with the full product range.** 

### 15 **MR. AMRANE: At least initially,** 

### 16 **yes.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 18 **MR. AMRANE: And then later, maybe** 

### 19 **several groups.** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: Do you want folks to** 

### 21 **vote on that?** 

### 22 **MS. MEYERS: Well, I would like to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 149**  **1 get ASRAC's perspective on this, as well.**  

### 2 **MR. AMRANE: Yes.** 

### 3 **MS. MEYERS: You know, they're,** 

### 4 **you know, covering all product groups, and I** 

### 5 **would certainly like to hear, you know, their** 

### 6 **perspective.** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Can ask them** 

### 8 **tomorrow. I mean, that effectively is the --** 

### 9 **the verification is the last thing for this** 

### 10 **working group that was left on the agenda.** 

### 11 **So, if we do formally vote to send** 

### 12 **-- to at least suggest to ASRAC that they have** 

### 13 **a discussion about forming a separate** 

### 14 **verification working group that's** 

### 15 **representative of all parties, working with** 

### 16 **the Department to identify a framework and** 

### 17 **then, you know, some kind of -- what the** 

### 18 **Department and what generally people would** 

### 19 **like to see from a verification program, this** 

### 20 **working group would be done, unless there is -** 

### 21 **-** 

### 22 **MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, and what's the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 150**  **1 scope that ASRAC would --**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: The scope, right.** 

### 3 **MS. HOOTMAN: -- say what it's** 

### 4 **covering, yes.** 

### 5 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 7 **HTP. My concern here is small manufacturers.** 

### 8 **We're strapped. I mean, this is killing us to** 

### 9 **be here and a part of this already.** 

### 10 **So, to say we need to do another** 

### 11 **one and start from scratch and come up with a** 

### 12 **unified field theory, it's not going to work.** 

### 13 **I'd much rather stay the course** 

### 14 **and finish what we have, and if the question** 

### 15 **comes down to the effective date, then, yes,** 

### 16 **let's say the effective date, it doesn't come** 

### 17 **into effect until everyone else comes into** 

### 18 **effect. I'd be okay with that.** 

### 19 **But small manufacturers just can't** 

### 20 **keep giving. We don't have -- there is no more** 

### 21 **blood in this turnip. End of rant.** 

### 22 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 151**  **1 MR. THARP: Beginning of rant.**  

### 2 **(Laughter.)** 

### 3 **MR. SACHS: I'm glad that others** 

### 4 **agree that a little humor helps diffuse** 

### 5 **tension, if not take away the underlying** 

### 6 **problems.** 

### 7 **I am concerned about including the** 

### 8 **second sentence requiring the same** 

### 9 **implementation date for all products.** 

### 10 **I am not sure that all product** 

### 11 **categories, all effected industries would** 

### 12 **agree that it's necessary to have a far out** 

### 13 **date or an early date. And I think there is** 

### 14 **a lot to be said for a rolling implementation,** 

### 15 **just in terms of reducing the likelihood of** 

### 16 **all sorts of administrative problems, without** 

### 17 **meaning in any way to reflect on the core** 

### 18 **competencies of the Agency.** 

### 19 **So, I just -- I think that leaving** 

### 20 **out that sentence would be helpful.** 

### 21 **MS. MEYERS: That's my main** 

### 22 **concern, Harvey. So, I would not agree with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 152**  **1 that.**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: I'm just trying to** 

### 3 **allow that if the CRE people are -- or I'm** 

### 4 **sorry, the psycho-ceramic people are really** 

### 5 **concerned that they're ready to go and want to** 

### 6 **have the benefits of that verification** 

### 7 **tomorrow, they should be allowed to do it** 

### 8 **earlier than some common implementation date.** 

### 9 **That's the perspective I'm trying** 

### 10 **to take, that I understand, I think, your** 

### 11 **desire to have it not be immediate, and I'm** 

### 12 **quite sympathetic to that, but I don't see why** 

### 13 **that requires other industries not to be able** 

### 14 **to pioneer and get this work out before** 

### 15 **Niagara Falls hits you guys in the face.** 

### 16 **MR. THARP: Karen, correct me if** 

### 17 **I'm wrong, but if it were weeks or months,** 

### 18 **that would be one thing, but years would be** 

### 19 **different.** 

### 20 **So, if everybody had effectivity** 

### 21 **in 2015, some in January, some in December,** 

### 22 **that would be okay, but we wouldn't want it,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 153**  **1 you know, one in 2015 and another one in 2020.**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: Good point.** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Isn't that the** 

### 4 **whole rationale for having the separate** 

### 5 **working group that would be overarching and** 

### 6 **they could come up with that?** 

### 7 **MR. THARP: Yes.** 

### 8 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, isn't that** 

### 9 **the whole fundamental reason for sentence one?** 

### 10 **I mean, I don't think you need sentence two,** 

### 11 **because, in theory, that is part of the reason** 

### 12 **why there are certain things -- I guess from** 

### 13 **the Department's perspective, I don't know** 

### 14 **that implementation is necessarily one of them** 

### 15 **-- but at least that we would get feedback on** 

### 16 **if implementation should be the same or should** 

### 17 **be different, and to Harvey's point, if there** 

### 18 **are portions of that group that are** 

### 19 **represented, that they think they should go** 

### 20 **first, and they're fully willing and everyone** 

### 21 **is okay with it, let them go.** 

### 22 **If there are others then -- but**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 154**  **1 that is the whole point of, right, having the**  

### 2 **separate group the represents the entire** 

### 3 **cross-section to deal with at least tee-up** 

### 4 **issues for the individual groups.** 

### 5 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 6 **AHRI. But I didn't hear any disagreement with** 

### 7 **the basic concept -- and I'm going to call** 

### 8 **them the verification regulations -- that the** 

### 9 **verification regulations should be specified** 

### 10 **for all products at the same time.** 

### 11 **They might be implemented at** 

### 12 **different times, but, you know, the stuff that** 

### 13 **says, "Okay, here is what you're going to do** 

### 14 **for verification, for all covered products,"** 

### 15 **that should, if you will, hit the Federal** 

### 16 **Register at the same time.** 

### 17 **MR. SACHS: A tip of the hat from** 

### 18 **Harvey. I'm not sure I agree, but I do agree** 

### 19 **it's an important distinction.** 

### 20 **My only reservation is that it** 

### 21 **might take a little longer for some of these** 

### 22 **very heterogenous product classes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 155**  **1 MR. STANONIK: Yes, I would -- but**  

### 2 **again, I think that is kind of the -- at least** 

### 3 **what I was hearing is that in doing this, that** 

### 4 **was part of the idea, that all covered** 

### 5 **products, at the same time, know, okay, here** 

### 6 **is what you're going to have to do for** 

### 7 **regulation -- for verification, I'm sorry,** 

### 8 **verification. When you're going to have to do** 

### 9 **it might flow, but here is kind of the basic** 

### 10 **ground rules.** 

### 11 **MR. SACHS: Well, this is Harvey.** 

### 12 **My concern is, do you think that verification** 

### 13 **rule could be developed quickly or is that** 

### 14 **going to be another five-year process?** 

### 15 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 16 **AHRI. I don't know. I don't know. I guess** 

### 17 **I'm going to say it could be developed as** 

### 18 **quickly as you could develop the common** 

### 19 **certification enforcement recommendations.** 

### 20 **MR. SACHS: Damn, you're good.** 

### 21 **(Laughter.)** 

### 22 **MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 156**  **1 I'll go the other direction, because I do not**  

### 2 **see how that is physically possible to happen,** 

### 3 **because the DOE has implemented rules of --** 

### 4 **basic rules over years and years and years.** 

### 5 **We started in the early 70's with** 

### 6 **regulations on energy efficiency of certain** 

### 7 **groups, and it has taken the DOE 30-some years** 

### 8 **to get to where we are today.** 

### 9 **And I'm sure that there are more** 

### 10 **categories that are being brought in all the** 

### 11 **time, such as TV-top boxes, a category we** 

### 12 **would never have thought of 10 or 15 years** 

### 13 **ago.** 

### 14 **So, I do not see how we can** 

### 15 **possibly get the DOE to complete such a** 

### 16 **massive task in a single step. Physically, I** 

### 17 **do not see any logic in it.** 

### 18 **There are too many diverse** 

### 19 **products here. I think that we have to defend** 

### 20 **the DOE sometimes and say, okay, our object is** 

### 21 **to be fair to everyone in the same industry so** 

### 22 **that the industry as a whole is playing on the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 157**  **1 same playing field.**  

### 2 **As long as the industry as a whole** 

### 3 **is on the same playing field, we're not** 

### 4 **hurting an industry. If a nation as a whole** 

### 5 **is playing on a different field, that is** 

### 6 **unfortunate because the less we control energy** 

### 7 **efficiency the more the nation suffers from a** 

### 8 **lot of other issues.** 

### 9 **And we can debate strategic** 

### 10 **thought on that forever. But it is the** 

### 11 **mandate of the Department to regulate** 

### 12 **products, and I do not believe that it's** 

### 13 **physically possible to regulate everything at** 

### 14 **one time.** 

### 15 **Obviously, we've proven that over** 

### 16 **the last years, because I'm sure you have** 

### 17 **rulemakings coming on product classifications** 

### 18 **we have not had on the books yet.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: The problem I'm** 

### 20 **having understanding some of this is, as part** 

### 21 **of what Charlie just said, the Department of** 

### 22 **Energy didn't set energy efficiency standards**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 158**  **1 for all 400 categories on the same day.**  

### 2 **Why did people not say it's not** 

### 3 **fair for light bulbs to have to meet a** 

### 4 **standard if refrigerators aren't going to have** 

### 5 **to meet an energy standard? What is there** 

### 6 **different about verification that requires it** 

### 7 **to all be done at the same time?** 

### 8 **MS. MEYERS: I think the** 

### 9 **difference is, in my opinion, is that the** 

### 10 **verification testing that is being proposed** 

### 11 **today, comes at the -- that the manufacturer** 

### 12 **has to pay for it.** 

### 13 **So, you are increasing the** 

### 14 **regulatory burden on this industry because of** 

### 15 **a DOE mandatory verification testing -- and** 

### 16 **also it's not just the verification testing,** 

### 17 **but it's the potential penalties that could** 

### 18 **come with that.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: But when they set the** 

### 20 **first standard for energy efficiency for one** 

### 21 **segment of the industry, manufacturers had to** 

### 22 **pay those costs.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 159**  **1 So, why didn't they say it's**  

### 2 **unfair for light bulbs to have to pay a cost,** 

### 3 **that refrigerators don't have to pay? That is** 

### 4 **where I'm having a problem with this.** 

### 5 **MS. HOOTMAN: Well, we didn't have** 

### 6 **to annually verify when they set the** 

### 7 **standards.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: But they had to pay** 

### 9 **the cost, which seems to be the concern.** 

### 10 **I now have the added expense of making my** 

### 11 **light bulbs --** 

### 12 **MS. HOOTMAN: I can choose to test** 

### 13 **anyway I want to and still say that I am** 

### 14 **within the minimum. That doesn't mean that I** 

### 15 **have to so-called get every 20 percent of my** 

### 16 **models every year.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: No, but didn't you** 

### 18 **have to pay a lot more money to manufacture** 

### 19 **the same product in a more energy efficient** 

### 20 **manner?** 

### 21 **I think you mentioned something** 

### 22 **being up by 75 -- or cut by 75 percent. That,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 160**  **1 I assume, is going to impose a cost on them,**  

### 2 **similar to the cost of having to test the** 

### 3 **product, if they had to do that.** 

### 4 **But they're starting off having to** 

### 5 **pay more to manufacture the same refrigerator** 

### 6 **meeting a much more efficient standard.** 

### 7 **So, that is where I am having** 

### 8 **trouble understanding why verification is** 

### 9 **different than testing.** 

### 10 **MR. BAUMAN: You know, I think the** 

### 11 **--** 

### 12 **MS. MEYERS: Because it's not** 

### 13 **saving any energy -- it may not be saving any** 

### 14 **energy. I think the energy efficiency** 

### 15 **standards are tied all back to the cost** 

### 16 **benefit analysis, and there is a lot of** 

### 17 **analysis that goes into setting those** 

### 18 **standards that DOE goes through.** 

### 19 **There is none of that with this** 

### 20 **additional cost burden. There is not the cost** 

### 21 **benefit analysis. There is not the** 

### 22 **manufacturer impact analysis. There is not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 161**  **1 any of the technical support documents that go**  

### 2 **into determining what -- and the Congress** 

### 3 **specifically gave DOE guidance on what to do** 

### 4 **with that.** 

### 5 **None of that is happening with** 

### 6 **this. This is an additional cost being** 

### 7 **imposed on the manufacturers without any of** 

### 8 **that analysis or any direction by Congress.** 

### 9 **So, I think it's completely,** 

### 10 **completely different.** 

### 11 **MR. DOPPEL: Plus, we're** 

### 12 **additionally already participating in a** 

### 13 **voluntary certification program.** 

### 14 **So, it's not like we are totally** 

### 15 **unregulated, unchecked out there. And I'm** 

### 16 **sure there are other product categories that** 

### 17 **have no type of certification verification** 

### 18 **programs.** 

### 19 **So, you know, it's like we already** 

### 20 **are incurring, we are voluntarily paying.** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: So, if DOE accepted** 

### 22 **that, under their program, you would have no**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 162**  **1 additional cost, other than perhaps reports?**  

### 2 **MR. AMRANE: Well, again, this is** 

### 3 **part of the discussion we've been having the** 

### 4 **last few weeks. You know, it has to be** 

### 5 **comparable. It has to be a level playing** 

### 6 **field, and I think the way it's going right** 

### 7 **now it's probably not going to be the case.** 

### 8 **Anyway, but that is the concern we** 

### 9 **have, absolutely.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: And if you add a** 

### 11 **verification program to the rule, wouldn't you** 

### 12 **have to do a cost benefit analysis for it?** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 14 **MR. HON: There is also questions** 

### 15 **we also need to clarify also, the true** 

### 16 **analysis of what is going on here. We have** 

### 17 **yet to ever hear statistical numbers on how** 

### 18 **many units are truly tested in any of these** 

### 19 **programs.** 

### 20 **We hear 20 percent quoted and 30** 

### 21 **percent quoted, but that is not of total** 

### 22 **units. That is of categories.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 163**  **1 The same as, statistically, UL**  

### 2 **requires more of us for Energy Star** 

### 3 **certification than what would be required if** 

### 4 **we were in the AHRI self-contained** 

### 5 **refrigeration categories, we would be down to** 

### 6 **approximately one percent of our products --** 

### 7 **well, excuse me, three percent of our products** 

### 8 **being tested, compared to 10 percent we're** 

### 9 **doing right now.** 

### 10 **So, we would have to do a complete** 

### 11 **analysis of all of the programs and everything** 

### 12 **else in the system to make this a true system,** 

### 13 **because there are differences in the way** 

### 14 **people set up programs that make statistical** 

### 15 **major changes in programs and thought, whether** 

### 16 **it be a Greenleaf program, an AHRI program,** 

### 17 **AHAM program.** 

### 18 **Each of these has their own** 

### 19 **statistical anomalies to reduce costs to their** 

### 20 **people, and it is highly unclear what that** 

### 21 **really means to the total package, because we** 

### 22 **cannot compare apples to oranges right now.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 164**  **1 We do not know what this means.**  

### 2 **MS. DANE: This is Mary from** 

### 3 **Traulsen. We've already determined from the** 

### 4 **beginning of the conversation that, in the** 

### 5 **case of industry program that exists, one size** 

### 6 **doesn't fit all.** 

### 7 **MR. HON: Right.** 

### 8 **MS. DANE: You know, if that were** 

### 9 **the case, all the CRE members would already be** 

### 10 **testing through AHRI, and we've chosen not to** 

### 11 **because that doesn't fit our business model.** 

### 12 **So, I think that if we -- I** 

### 13 **understand having a framework, but like I** 

### 14 **said, there are some things that are important** 

### 15 **to CRE that we've kind of slogged our way to** 

### 16 **this point that I would be pretty reticent in** 

### 17 **giving up the ground we've made as far as** 

### 18 **coming up with something.** 

### 19 **Whether or not we feel it should** 

### 20 **be, you know, brought in, we've at least tried** 

### 21 **to sit down and talk about, well, if we have** 

### 22 **a verification program, what would that be?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 165**  **1 MR. HON: Right, because a**  

### 2 **voluntary verification program is not the same** 

### 3 **as a very structured government program where** 

### 4 **they set the ground rules. They're the same** 

### 5 **for everybody. All the statistics are done** 

### 6 **the same way. All the selection is done the** 

### 7 **same way. Everything is clear.** 

### 8 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 9 **MR. AMRANE: I'm sorry, but** 

### 10 **Charlie, what you're talking about, about** 

### 11 **being the same way. Already, it's not the** 

### 12 **same way.** 

### 13 **What you're talking about is not** 

### 14 **the same way the HVAC is talking about.** 

### 15 **MR. HON: I know.** 

### 16 **MR. AMRANE: So, that is why we** 

### 17 **need some sort of --** 

### 18 **MR. HON: That is exactly why I'm** 

### 19 **saying this and --** 

### 20 **MR. AMRANE: -- framing document** 

### 21 **from DOE, that would settle.** 

### 22 **MR. HON: I agree with you 100**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 166**  **1 percent. That is exactly what -- you're**  

### 2 **correct that we need a standard program, but** 

### 3 **voluntary programs would have to be parallel** 

### 4 **to that and completely understandable and** 

### 5 **completely transparent for the DOE to accept** 

### 6 **them.** 

### 7 **MR. AMRANE: Absolutely.** 

### 8 **MR. HON: And that is where a lot** 

### 9 **of times, right now, we don't know the** 

### 10 **transparency. It isn't clear at this moment.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: So, obviously, if** 

### 12 **ASRAC convened a new working group, I don't** 

### 13 **know who would ultimately end up on that** 

### 14 **working group. But I can't imagine that that** 

### 15 **group would not capitalize off of all of the** 

### 16 **work that you've done.** 

### 17 **I would not expect for one moment** 

### 18 **that the work that you've done would be lost.** 

### 19 **Nobody wants to reinvent the wheel, and I know** 

### 20 **you all have spent a whole lot of time working** 

### 21 **through a lot of issues.** 

### 22 **I think my main question to you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 167**  **1 then is, is it written or is it in your heads?**  

### 2 **Because is it transferrable to that working** 

### 3 **group?** 

### 4 **MR. AMRANE: Transferrable?** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, because I** 

### 6 **think what I'm hearing Mary say is that** 

### 7 **they've invested a lot of time and effort, and** 

### 8 **she doesn't want all of that time and effort** 

### 9 **to go to waste if we're not the group pursuing** 

### 10 **it, but it's a different group pursing it.** 

### 11 **So, I'm trying to figure out can** 

### 12 **that effort be transferred to a new working** 

### 13 **group?** 

### 14 **MR. BAUMAN: Well, for CRE, again,** 

### 15 **we've basically been bouncing around a draft** 

### 16 **that we've been building upon, and it's been** 

### 17 **in various versions -- it was shared at one** 

### 18 **point, and I think we came up with a number of** 

### 19 **changes from that point.** 

### 20 **But I would think as we're -- you** 

### 21 **know, if we're saying we're going to set this** 

### 22 **verification aside for a different -- I think**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 168**  **1 CRE would welcome the opportunity to come up**  

### 2 **with a chance to unitize that and present it** 

### 3 **to DOE to be used for future consideration.** 

### 4 **MS. DANE: And I think the one** 

### 5 **that we were talking about went into more** 

### 6 **detail of how we would structure a** 

### 7 **manufactured one, a program that the DOE would** 

### 8 **be comfortable with because of the** 

### 9 **accreditation process of the labs we use.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 11 **MS. DANE: And we just would like** 

### 12 **to make sure that that doesn't go along the** 

### 13 **way, because we know there are other groups** 

### 14 **who are, you know, negotiating amendments** 

### 15 **through laws, and we don't want to be caught** 

### 16 **up in that, period.** 

### 17 **MR. AMRANE: But having said that** 

### 18 **-- this is Karim with AHRI -- whatever came up** 

### 19 **with the CRE group has the input from those** 

### 20 **people who are here, not much of input from** 

### 21 **others, who are not in this room.** 

### 22 **So, I think we need to, to do a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 169**  **1 good justice here, to reach out to many more**  

### 2 **than just the few --** 

### 3 **MS. DANE: Well, I would disagree.** 

### 4 **I would say that CRE does a lot of work. I've** 

### 5 **been in contact with NAPA almost after every** 

### 6 **meeting we have, and they have an open door.** 

### 7 **I know that I personally have been** 

### 8 **talking to members of NAPM, as has Ron. I** 

### 9 **cannot speak for Charlie and Jeff, but I know** 

### 10 **that through AHRI meetings, you guys talk to** 

### 11 **some of the members --** 

### 12 **MR. AMRANE: No, we talk. I am not** 

### 13 **saying -- I'm not sure to what extent,** 

### 14 **frankly, people are fully engaged in this.** 

### 15 **MS. DANE: I think that they're** 

### 16 **relying heavily on the people that are in this** 

### 17 **room to go back and forth with their ideas,** 

### 18 **and I know that CRE is very adamant about not** 

### 19 **having to have an AHRI-structured program, to** 

### 20 **be able to use the current manufacturer** 

### 21 **structured program, and I would hate to see** 

### 22 **those people who are in the room fighting for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 170**  **1 that risk losing the ability to fight for**  

### 2 **that. That is all I'm saying.** 

### 3 **I know that your industry is** 

### 4 **already in lock-step with one another. You** 

### 5 **guys should be allowed to continue.** 

### 6 **MR. AMRANE: Again, we're not** 

### 7 **going to get into this discussion here,** 

### 8 **because I think it's going to -- it is not** 

### 9 **going to go anywhere. But I think, again,** 

### 10 **what you're saying is not correct, but that's** 

### 11 **fine.** 

### 12 **MR. BAUMAN: What I was trying to** 

### 13 **imply by CRE also, Karim, what that you had --** 

### 14 **Karim has been part of the discussions we've** 

### 15 **had and the --** 

### 16 **MR. AMRANE: Yes, that's right.** 

### 17 **MR. BAUMAN: There is items there,** 

### 18 **you know, we would present it also with. There** 

### 19 **might be items that we present but that might** 

### 20 **have parenthetical comments about how it** 

### 21 **wasn't completely agreed to by everybody or** 

### 22 **whatever.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 171**  **1 MR. AMRANE: Right.**  

### 2 **MR. BAUMAN: Again, to give a** 

### 3 **general framework that could potentially be** 

### 4 **built on with other manufacturers, for however** 

### 5 **this verification group is set up.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: What about** 

### 7 **boiler/water heaters? So, are you also** 

### 8 **expressing concern that all the work that has** 

### 9 **gone into it would be lost?** 

### 10 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes. Phillip** 

### 11 **Stephens, HTP. I think what we have is three** 

### 12 **groups, three camps. You have one camp that** 

### 13 **is completely outside of AHRI, that has their** 

### 14 **own way they prefer to do things.** 

### 15 **Then you have the boilers and the** 

### 16 **water heaters, which some of us are, some of** 

### 17 **us aren't, and we cannot reach consensus in** 

### 18 **our group, because we do not all agree with** 

### 19 **everything to do with the AHRI program and** 

### 20 **outline.** 

### 21 **Then you have the HVAC group,** 

### 22 **which is predominantly AHRI members, which**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 172**  **1 accepted the AHRI model all the way across.**  

### 2 **That's fine for their industry. If they think** 

### 3 **it's appropriate, that's fine. It's not** 

### 4 **appropriate for the boilers or the commercial** 

### 5 **water heaters. So, I am --** 

### 6 **MR. AMRANE: Speak for yourself.** 

### 7 **I mean, not the --** 

### 8 **MR. STEPHENS: Well, the fact that** 

### 9 **we can't reach consensus said it's says it's** 

### 10 **not appropriate for the entire group.** 

### 11 **MS. MEYERS: So, I disagree with** 

### 12 **that. I would say we have not reached** 

### 13 **consensus at this point.** 

### 14 **MR. AMRANE: I'm sorry.** 

### 15 **MS. MEYERS: It's not that we** 

### 16 **cannot, but we have not reached consensus at** 

### 17 **this point. And so I think there is a clear** 

### 18 **distinction in that, and we're holding** 

### 19 **meetings when the full group can't be there,** 

### 20 **and so it's not that we cannot, but we have** 

### 21 **not.** 

### 22 **So, I think there is a very big**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 173**  **1 difference in those two terminologies.**  

### 2 **MR. STEPHENS: I'm concerned, from** 

### 3 **what is going on here, that we're shuffling** 

### 4 **the deck. We're not getting the outcome that** 

### 5 **others in the group want, the larger** 

### 6 **companies, so they want to shuffle the deck** 

### 7 **and get different players that may be more** 

### 8 **sympathetic.** 

### 9 **MR. EISNER: Let's not get into** 

### 10 **what people are thinking. Let's just talk** 

### 11 **about what we want.** 

### 12 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, maybe the ask** 

### 13 **for ASRAC is for them to discuss, you know --** 

### 14 **we can make some statements about the work and** 

### 15 **the great work that has been done. We can** 

### 16 **make a statement that it seems like consensus** 

### 17 **hasn't been reached for all product types that** 

### 18 **were subject to this, in terms of** 

### 19 **verification.** 

### 20 **And we can ask them for what their** 

### 21 **opinion is about what to do with verification,** 

### 22 **whether to let this group keep going, or to --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 174**  **1 because it doesn't seem like we're going to**  

### 2 **reach consensus on whether we should or** 

### 3 **shouldn't here.** 

### 4 **So, maybe we ask ASRAC whether** 

### 5 **they think this group should -- they want to** 

### 6 **ask this group to keep going with everything** 

### 7 **they've been doing, or whether they think a** 

### 8 **different group is more appropriate. That is** 

### 9 **one idea.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: That's a good point.** 

### 11 **We can turn this around a little bit on what** 

### 12 **we said in the slide and say, "Here is where** 

### 13 **we are now. Here is what some people think** 

### 14 **we've accomplished. Others disagree."** 

### 15 **Whatever we put up there, and then** 

### 16 **maybe raise things for ASRAC to consider in** 

### 17 **deciding how to go ahead and how to proceed** 

### 18 **with this.** 

### 19 **I mean, that I think it is a good** 

### 20 **suggestion.** 

### 21 **MS. DANE: At a minimum, I think** 

### 22 **that it needs to be recognized that each**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 175**  **1 industry is different enough that we need our**  

### 2 **own verification program model for each of** 

### 3 **those industries.** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: And that is one of** 

### 5 **the things we could say up there.** 

### 6 **MS. DANE: Yes.** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: And we could say,** 

### 8 **"Most agree with this, some agree with this,** 

### 9 **all agree with this," whatever it is we want,** 

### 10 **but we can put that down there as a report,** 

### 11 **rather than a full recommendation, saying,** 

### 12 **"ASRAC, what would you like us to do next?"** 

### 13 **MS. DANE: Right, because I don't** 

### 14 **disagree that CRE won't reach consensus. I** 

### 15 **don't think that that is an issue for CRE. I** 

### 16 **think we've made good progress. I know Ron** 

### 17 **Shebik has put together a summary of all of** 

### 18 **our collective thoughts. So, a written** 

### 19 **framework does exist.** 

### 20 **MR. ANDERSON: This is Viktor** 

### 21 **Anderson, Structural Concepts. We develop** 

### 22 **one-offs all the time. So, verification**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 176**  **1 programs are very difficult for us to do.**  

### 2 **So, I guess I --** 

### 3 **MS. DANE: We have a plank in** 

### 4 **there to deal with one-offs. They're not** 

### 5 **included.** 

### 6 **MR. ANDERSON: So, then we don't** 

### 7 **have to -- don't have to do anything?** 

### 8 **MS. DANE: You have to certify it.** 

### 9 **MR. STANONIK: You have to** 

### 10 **certify.** 

### 11 **MR. ANDERSON: Okay.** 

### 12 **MS. DANE: Yes.** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: Frank?** 

### 14 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with** 

### 15 **AHRI. Two things. First of all, at the last** 

### 16 **working group meeting it was in fact** 

### 17 **determined that the time frame for developing** 

### 18 **verification recommendations was extended to** 

### 19 **roughly the end of October.** 

### 20 **So, it's certainly very important** 

### 21 **for AHRI to make the conclusion that we can't** 

### 22 **reach consensus on the boiler issues is just**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 177**  **1 not an appropriate statement to make now.**  

### 2 **We have more time to work that** 

### 3 **out, and I can tell you, we're trying to put** 

### 4 **together the information because I think** 

### 5 **everybody is just looking at pieces of this.** 

### 6 **We're trying to put the information together** 

### 7 **to frame a recommendation that may reach** 

### 8 **consensus.** 

### 9 **And I'll also mention that at the** 

### 10 **last meeting, and I'll say it again, it should** 

### 11 **not be the commercial boiler and water heater** 

### 12 **working group. They need to be distinct** 

### 13 **groups. They are very different products,** 

### 14 **very different markets, and whatever comes out** 

### 15 **of the commercial boiler working group should** 

### 16 **not necessarily drive the water heater group.** 

### 17 **I think that is important.** 

### 18 **But the other point, and I don't** 

### 19 **want to lose it, because Harvey made it and I** 

### 20 **think it got misunderstood a little bit.** 

### 21 **Everybody is talking about** 

### 22 **uniqueness of product, uniqueness of testing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 178**  **1 and things like that. Again, the effort that**  

### 2 **was discussed earlier today about the --** 

### 3 **looking at the -- let's call it the statistics** 

### 4 **of certification and the statistics of** 

### 5 **enforcement, that will provide useful** 

### 6 **information that will identify, let's call it** 

### 7 **the uniquenesses of various products, that can** 

### 8 **have some impact on how verification gets** 

### 9 **played out, okay.** 

### 10 **You know, as an extreme example,** 

### 11 **let's say you had a covered product that, in** 

### 12 **fact, nobody in the business made more than** 

### 13 **five of any model, all right, not that that is** 

### 14 **-- you know, that's pretty hard to envision.** 

### 15 **But let's say that was there,** 

### 16 **okay? Trying to come up with -- first of all,** 

### 17 **certification and enforcement for that would** 

### 18 **be very different than let's talk about** 

### 19 **residential water heaters, where the industry** 

### 20 **is making eight or nine-million on an annual** 

### 21 **basis, okay?** 

### 22 **But, again, I think we can't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 179**  **1 ignore that very useful information we're**  

### 2 **going to get out of that effort that will help** 

### 3 **frame, okay, we've got what I'm going to call** 

### 4 **verification basics, and then we're going to** 

### 5 **look how do those really get applied when I** 

### 6 **start talking about commercial refrigeration** 

### 7 **versus large boilers versus packaged roof-tops** 

### 8 **or whatever.** 

### 9 **So, I think that there is going to** 

### 10 **be a synergy there we should not ignore.** 

### 11 **Which I guess the point of this, what I think** 

### 12 **-- I just keep seeing this going back to say** 

### 13 **we really do need a separate -- verification** 

### 14 **needs to be addressed separately, in a** 

### 15 **separate working group.** 

### 16 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 17 **HTP. Verification, I agree, it's pretty** 

### 18 **obvious we do need to separate that. As far** 

### 19 **as separating commercial water heaters from** 

### 20 **commercial boilers, I disagree. They are the** 

### 21 **same beast. Same technology. Same materials.** 

### 22 **Very similar constructions. I disagree.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 180**  **1 MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharp.**  

### 2 **I think it's almost lunch time.** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree.** 

### 4 **(Laughter.)** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: Do we have a** 

### 6 **consensus on lunch?** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: Okay, it's 11:30 a.m.** 

### 9 **MR. SACHS: Are there any** 

### 10 **abstentions?** 

### 11 **(Laughter.)** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: We can put them in a** 

### 13 **working group together, a separate group.** 

### 14 **Okay, it's almost 11:30 a.m. Why** 

### 15 **don't we come back at 12:30 p.m.** 

### 16 **(Whereupon, the above-entitled** 

### 17 **matter went off the record at 11:26 a.m. and** 

### 18 **resumed at 12:43 p.m.)** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: Okay, anybody want to** 

### 20 **suggest language to put up on the screen about** 

### 21 **--** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: I put some language**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 181**  **1 up that I think reflects where people were.**  

### 2 **Basically to leave it to ASRAC to decide.** 

### 3 **MR. HALLEY: This is Geoff Halley,** 

### 4 **ABMA. I've got one comment to make as regards** 

### 5 **to the boiler group.** 

### 6 **They're meeting on Monday and from** 

### 7 **my point of view, from ABMA's point of view,** 

### 8 **I think we've got to a point where I was sort** 

### 9 **of happy with what we did. You know, whether** 

### 10 **it's going to apply to everybody remains to be** 

### 11 **seen.** 

### 12 **But from the ABMA point of view,** 

### 13 **as long as it wasn't changed at this point,** 

### 14 **we're fine.** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 16 **MR. HALLEY: Okay.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: So, the last** 

### 18 **sentence I have up there says, "significant** 

### 19 **progress." Do you want to go even further and** 

### 20 **say that --** 

### 21 **MS. DANE: This is Mary from** 

### 22 **Traulsen. I don't believe that CRE said that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 182**  **1 we couldn't reach consensus and that we wanted**  

### 2 **to turn it over to ASRAC. Did we, Geoff?** 

### 3 **MR. HALLEY: Reach consensus?** 

### 4 **MS. DANE: Well, no, as far as the** 

### 5 **-- we're talking about the verification** 

### 6 **program, correct?** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: So, we're talking** 

### 8 **about whether or not to leave to ASRAC whether** 

### 9 **to continue that discussion in this group or** 

### 10 **in a different group.** 

### 11 **I mean, ultimately, it's their** 

### 12 **call anyway, because at this point we have to** 

### 13 **get them to agree to let us continue. So, I** 

### 14 **mean, effectively, whether we make a** 

### 15 **recommendation or not, they still have that --** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: Right, if we make a** 

### 17 **recommendation to ASRAC, do we want to say any** 

### 18 **more than we're turning it over to you to make** 

### 19 **a decision? Do we want to say what we think** 

### 20 **they ought to consider in making that** 

### 21 **decision? Do we want to, for example,** 

### 22 **describe the progress we have made, describe**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 183**  **1 what we think is possible to get out of this,**  

### 2 **if we have more time?** 

### 3 **Do we want to talk about the pros** 

### 4 **and cons of this group developing verification** 

### 5 **standards alone, or the benefits of a bigger** 

### 6 **group representing all 400 product lines** 

### 7 **developing it?** 

### 8 **Do you want to start speaking --** 

### 9 **even if it's not a majority, even if it's not** 

### 10 **a consensus, to say the factors that ought to** 

### 11 **be considered by ASRAC, or do you just want to** 

### 12 **say to ASRAC, "Here is it. You decide."** 

### 13 **MR. BAUMAN: I think the point,** 

### 14 **you know, is -- and you hit on the difference** 

### 15 **there, is that I think stressing the idea that** 

### 16 **the recommendations be for all covered** 

### 17 **products, not just products that fall under** 

### 18 **this, within this group.** 

### 19 **I think that was the big** 

### 20 **difference, the idea of expanding this so that** 

### 21 **all covered products would be subject to** 

### 22 **similar verification, or, you know, equivalent**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 184**  **1 levels across the board, not just that these**  

### 2 **products are the only ones that would have a** 

### 3 **verification program.** 

### 4 **To me, that seemed to be the** 

### 5 **difference that we were talking about, is that** 

### 6 **we -- you know, the idea that people in here -** 

### 7 **- or the products we represent or whatever,** 

### 8 **would be the only ones that would have a** 

### 9 **verification program, and saying that, okay,** 

### 10 **go back and look at all covered products as a** 

### 11 **general sense, and then have potentially sub** 

### 12 **groups, which would be people working with** 

### 13 **this group, potentially for some of the** 

### 14 **classifications.** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: So, for example** 

### 16 **though, would you want to give them guidance** 

### 17 **by saying, this group might be able to develop** 

### 18 **with more time, standards for itself, but** 

### 19 **there is some concern that whatever they** 

### 20 **develop might some -- in some way, affect the** 

### 21 **negotiations or the general rulemaking that** 

### 22 **the Agency would do, for all products?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 185**  **1 So, should we convene a bigger**  

### 2 **group to outline what ought to be in** 

### 3 **verification standards, then let this group** 

### 4 **meet again to resolve it, for the products** 

### 5 **covered by these negotiations, or do you want** 

### 6 **to say we think -- you know, some think it** 

### 7 **might be very, very different and there is no** 

### 8 **need to have general guidance?** 

### 9 **Again, I don't know what you want** 

### 10 **to say, but I look at this as -- if I were** 

### 11 **ASRAC, I might be thinking, well, what is it** 

### 12 **you think I ought to do and why is this an** 

### 13 **issue, and why can't you guys resolve it?** 

### 14 **That sort of thing. Do you need to say more** 

### 15 **to them?** 

### 16 **MR. HON: I agree. That's what we** 

### 17 **were discussing at lunch, all at the same** 

### 18 **time.** 

### 19 **We need to -- this isn't -- I** 

### 20 **don't like the one --** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay, let me try** 

### 22 **doing --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 186**  **1 MR. HON: That is my opinion of**  

### 2 **it.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: What I saw us going** 

### 4 **toward is, if nothing else, if this group** 

### 5 **decided that it did not want to proceed, or** 

### 6 **didn't have a consensus to proceed with the** 

### 7 **negotiations on verification, then you might** 

### 8 **want to at least say what it is you think** 

### 9 **you've learned, that the -- that ASRAC ought** 

### 10 **to consider, if it wants to set up a big group** 

### 11 **to look at this.** 

### 12 **The valid points were made, you** 

### 13 **might not be able to get adequate** 

### 14 **representation of all industries around the** 

### 15 **table, but it might be better to get the best** 

### 16 **you can, to come up with general guidelines** 

### 17 **for the group, that sort of thing.** 

### 18 **MR. HON: I think we've done a lot** 

### 19 **of work here that is very solid foundation.** 

### 20 **Why would we give it up?** 

### 21 **It's not finalized, but it's a** 

### 22 **solid foundation.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 187**  **1 MR. EISNER: Why don't we put --**  

### 2 **Laura, why don't we put that point on the** 

### 3 **screen, and start getting points like that up** 

### 4 **there, and then see what we can agree to?** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay, what was it?** 

### 6 **MS. ARMSTRONG: That this group** 

### 7 **has made solid progress.** 

### 8 **MS. DANE: I think the distinction** 

### 9 **should be is, which groups believe, at the end** 

### 10 **of this exercise, we will leave with a** 

### 11 **verification program that you're comfortable** 

### 12 **with.** 

### 13 **I am hearing that there is** 

### 14 **problems on part of the groups, that they feel** 

### 15 **that we should all start verification programs** 

### 16 **at the same time, even though certification** 

### 17 **wise, we're all going at different times.** 

### 18 **You know, I am not saying that I** 

### 19 **should have -- you know, neither one of us** 

### 20 **should be stuck with each other's belief** 

### 21 **system.** 

### 22 **I think if CRE can say, we can**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 188**  **1 come up with a verification program, we should**  

### 2 **go ahead and finalize it.** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.** 

### 4 **MS. DANE: And that the groups** 

### 5 **that can't, can say to ASRAC, "Well, it's up** 

### 6 **to you. We'll throw it all back in the pot,** 

### 7 **stir it up, and start over."** 

### 8 **I don't believe CRE is willing --** 

### 9 **well, some -- I would say that Charlie and I,** 

### 10 **and some of the people I've talked to, do not** 

### 11 **want to start over from scratch.** 

### 12 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.** 

### 13 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with** 

### 14 **AHRI. But at the same time, what would make** 

### 15 **this program acceptable to DOE versus another** 

### 16 **program acceptable to DOE?** 

### 17 **People are going to come up with** 

### 18 **very different requirements, very different** 

### 19 **requirements.** 

### 20 **So, I think we need to get from** 

### 21 **DOE, a piece -- a set of -- a set of** 

### 22 **framework, what do you want, because otherwise**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 189**  **1 you're going to be getting very, very**  

### 2 **different, I guess suggestions, as to how to** 

### 3 **proceed, and I'm not sure as an Agency, how** 

### 4 **you would address that.** 

### 5 **I mean, I guess all the** 

### 6 **rulemakings are done about the same way. I** 

### 7 **mean, you do the same kind of analysis, there** 

### 8 **is some sort of consistency.** 

### 9 **In this case, you might end up** 

### 10 **with very different requirements.** 

### 11 **So, that is why I think it's** 

### 12 **needed for our -- for us to proceed, this** 

### 13 **document, I believe it is.** 

### 14 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens.** 

### 15 **Two points. I think the boiler and commercial** 

### 16 **water heater group are pretty much in line** 

### 17 **with what Geoffrey said earlier.** 

### 18 **We made good progress, and we had** 

### 19 **the document that Geoff put together, that I** 

### 20 **think we could provide. It's not everyone's** 

### 21 **opinions or a couple people -- couple groups** 

### 22 **that weren't there, but I think we could**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 190**  **1 probably provide that, circulate it, out to**  

### 2 **the people that were there.** 

### 3 **I've reviewed it, and I don't have** 

### 4 **any problems with it.** 

### 5 **But to the second point, you were** 

### 6 **talking -- Karim was talking about very** 

### 7 **different verification programs for every** 

### 8 **product segment, but we also have very** 

### 9 **different method of tests for every different** 

### 10 **product segment.** 

### 11 **So, I don't see where that would** 

### 12 **be an issue.** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: Let's go back to** 

### 14 **Karim's point.** 

### 15 **You made, as I recall, I can't** 

### 16 **remember the exact phrase you used, but you** 

### 17 **wanted -- obviously, as least costly as** 

### 18 **possible, a program that will ensure -- give** 

### 19 **you the level of confidence you need in the** 

### 20 **testing.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: Right.** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: Is that something we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 191**  **1 can put up on the screen, to show what DOE**  

### 2 **says its objective is?** 

### 3 **MR. BAUMAN: Didn't we have that** 

### 4 **in a previous slide? There was a slide on the** 

### 5 **verification process --** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, there was.** 

### 7 **MR. BAUMAN: -- and DOE is** 

### 8 **considering including a requirement, and kind** 

### 9 **of, we started this, right?** 

### 10 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, Karim, to** 

### 11 **your point, and since Jeff brought it up, I** 

### 12 **mean, I think those slides were the starting** 

### 13 **point of discussions of what DOE -- the types** 

### 14 **of questions that DOE would like to see** 

### 15 **answered by a potential verification program,** 

### 16 **in terms of, you know, how many products -- a** 

### 17 **minimum number of products tested per year,** 

### 18 **how selections are made in great detail.** 

### 19 **How notifications are made, what** 

### 20 **determines a failure, who is involved in what** 

### 21 **communications, that could -- those who --** 

### 22 **what are the laboratory requirements? I mean,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 192**  **1 I'm doing this off of memory, but those are**  

### 2 **more or less some of the questions.** 

### 3 **Now, we didn't provide a DOE** 

### 4 **answer to any of those or opinions to any of** 

### 5 **those, because I don't know at this point,** 

### 6 **that we had one. We wanted to see what** 

### 7 **everyone was thinking, in terms of -- for** 

### 8 **their specific products, and it may be that** 

### 9 **some of those can be uniform.** 

### 10 **Obviously, the number of products** 

### 11 **to be tested and how that stuff is done is** 

### 12 **probably going to be very product-specific,** 

### 13 **and that needs to reside in product specific** 

### 14 **working groups and be dealt with accordingly.** 

### 15 **So, I don't know, exactly. We** 

### 16 **will have to reconcile at some point. I don't** 

### 17 **know exactly how we would do it.** 

### 18 **But I think we also need to** 

### 19 **understand like, we need to see what the** 

### 20 **proposals are on some level, to be able to** 

### 21 **provide some feedback, or at least ask some** 

### 22 **questions to flush out some of the details**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 193**  **1 that we would need to try to compare across**  

### 2 **different product types.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: So, going back to** 

### 4 **something that Ashley brought up earlier.** 

### 5 **Verification testing ended up on** 

### 6 **the agenda for this at you all's request. It** 

### 7 **wasn't something that the Department set out** 

### 8 **to do. It is something that we see value in,** 

### 9 **but it's not something that we have -- I mean,** 

### 10 **a set view of, well, this is what we want.** 

### 11 **I mean, this is -- we do see value** 

### 12 **in it, but we don't have a real strong view** 

### 13 **of, it has to be this way or it has to be that** 

### 14 **way.** 

### 15 **There would be benefits to having** 

### 16 **very similar programs across a lot of** 

### 17 **different product types, because that would** 

### 18 **ease our administrative burden. The more** 

### 19 **similar they are, the easier it is for us to** 

### 20 **deal with it.** 

### 21 **But if there are reasons to do it** 

### 22 **different ways for different products, I mean,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 194**  **1 we can work with that.**  

### 2 **We have gone into this trying to** 

### 3 **be as flexible as possible, to work with you** 

### 4 **all because we'd like to be able to get to** 

### 5 **something on this, because it -- I keep saying** 

### 6 **the same thing, we do see value, but it's not** 

### 7 **something that we're just --** 

### 8 **MR. THARP: So, Laura, I guess** 

### 9 **what I'm sort of hearing is that DOE's opinion** 

### 10 **is that you have statutory authority to do it,** 

### 11 **but you're not statutorily required to do it.** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: Right.** 

### 13 **MR. THARP: And there is not a** 

### 14 **deadline that you have to have this done by** 

### 15 **12/31/2013 --** 

### 16 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 17 **MR. THARP: -- or anything of that** 

### 18 **nature.** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: Right, exactly.** 

### 20 **MR. CALABRESE: This is Dave** 

### 21 **Calabrese, AHRI, and I was listening in, so,** 

### 22 **I apologize, I was -- got a little behind.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 195**  **1 I think that an important for it -**  

### 2 **- to be discussed and actually, why it's** 

### 3 **important to go back to ASRAC is back on that** 

### 4 **statutory authority.** 

### 5 **I understand, like and correct me** 

### 6 **if I'm wrong, that you're basing it on the** 

### 7 **6296(d), which is the informational** 

### 8 **requirements.** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 10 **MR. CALABRESE: And if you look** 

### 11 **through 6296, the requirements for** 

### 12 **manufacturers, (b) is actually the section** 

### 13 **that says that if there is going to be** 

### 14 **testing, where the Secretary can compel a** 

### 15 **manufacturer to provide --** 

### 16 **MS. BARHYDT: Units for testing.** 

### 17 **MR. CALABRESE: -- products, for** 

### 18 **testing.** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 20 **MR. CALABRESE: And then of** 

### 21 **course, the Department has to pay for that,** 

### 22 **and at the end, it says some kind of ambiguous**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 196**  **1 language, that it has to be also provided for**  

### 2 **in appropriations, which must be a hold-off** 

### 3 **from the days where there used to be** 

### 4 **appropriation, because that is not the case.** 

### 5 **But to me, I -- you know, and I am** 

### 6 **not saying this is a fatal flaw, but to me,** 

### 7 **that is a serious distinction between using** 

### 8 **the (b) authority and the (d), because under** 

### 9 **(d) it is more designed for information. It** 

### 10 **says specifically to -- for the Department to** 

### 11 **determine how to create new test procedures** 

### 12 **and standards, and to ensure compliance, and** 

### 13 **it also says that should rely upon industry** 

### 14 **associations.** 

### 15 **But (b) is directly on point to** 

### 16 **testing, and so, I would argue, and I think** 

### 17 **this is something we could, you know -- we're** 

### 18 **in debate right now, but perhaps in the larger** 

### 19 **ASRAC, is that it should be based under (b).** 

### 20 **Now, that creates a problem** 

### 21 **because then now, we're talking about money,** 

### 22 **but I do think it's a significant issue that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 197**  **1 we probably should talk about at some point**  

### 2 **during the larger discussions.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: If we were to take a** 

### 4 **vote right now, on whether or not DOE should** 

### 5 **have a verification testing program, would** 

### 6 **people be ready to do anything, other than** 

### 7 **abstain? Would everybody vote? Not hearing** 

### 8 **any objections?** 

### 9 **MR. MOLVIE: I'd vote no.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: All right.** 

### 11 **PARTICIPANT: No.** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: All right, who would** 

### 13 **-- raise your hands if you would vote `yes',** 

### 14 **they should have a testing program.** 

### 15 **MR. BAUMAN: With some time of** 

### 16 **minimum -- I have just a little bit to throw** 

### 17 **in there.** 

### 18 **I just have a little bit of a** 

### 19 **different recollection, where I thought this** 

### 20 **was initially, which is -- I thought it was** 

### 21 **initially brought up in the presentation,** 

### 22 **where it says DOE is considering its**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 198**  **1 requirements governing --**  

### 2 **To me, that focus, that DOE was** 

### 3 **putting it out there to us, and I thought at** 

### 4 **that time, we all agreed that yes, now, let's** 

### 5 **go into looking at different --** 

### 6 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I created** 

### 7 **those based on the scope that was determined -** 

### 8 **-** 

### 9 **MR. BAUMAN: Okay, so, that was** 

### 10 **based on previous --** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, and it was --** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, on April 30th.** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 14 **MR. BAUMAN: All right, all right.** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: That is why.** 

### 16 **MR. BAUMAN: But I think this --** 

### 17 **I'm not sure -- I think some sort of minimum** 

### 18 **requirement is -- because you cannot define** 

### 19 **some way to get reliability to whatever the** 

### 20 **manufacturers are certifying.** 

### 21 **I mean, we just ask people as they** 

### 22 **answer that question, to think to yourself**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 199**  **1 what the alternatives are.**  

### 2 **You know, if you're not going to** 

### 3 **do some kind of -- if the Department is not** 

### 4 **going to do some kind of certification or some** 

### 5 **kind of verification program, what is the** 

### 6 **alternative that they could look at?** 

### 7 **MR. KLEISS: Well, that is a** 

### 8 **decent question. What are we doing today?** 

### 9 **We have VICP's that we participate** 

### 10 **in, and for those who don't participate, what** 

### 11 **is the current method of verification?** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: We have some** 

### 13 **assessment testing.** 

### 14 **MR. KLEISS: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: And we're talking two** 

### 16 **different things here. We have to be very** 

### 17 **careful.** 

### 18 **Voluntary programs are one thing.** 

### 19 **Basically, all that is being done under the** 

### 20 **Government program is, they're doing some** 

### 21 **independent testing.** 

### 22 **So, the issue again is, should the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 200**  **1 Government continue doing only its assessment**  

### 2 **testing on its own or should the Government** 

### 3 **have a verification program established in the** 

### 4 **rules?** 

### 5 **All those who say `no', all those** 

### 6 **who say they should stay with the current** 

### 7 **program, also saying therefore, no to an** 

### 8 **independent verification program?** 

### 9 **MS. DANE: Can you say that one** 

### 10 **more time? I think the I can parse --** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: I am not clear,** 

### 12 **myself.** 

### 13 **MR. SACHS: Neil, I think there** 

### 14 **are some nuances here, and I'm uncomfortable** 

### 15 **with the formulation of sort of the --** 

### 16 **everyone or no one on verification, that I** 

### 17 **would support, and I think ACEEE would support** 

### 18 **the need for verification testing for some** 

### 19 **product classes that have been identified.** 

### 20 **MR. SHEBIK: I can't hear anybody.** 

### 21 **MR. SACHS: I'm sorry. This is** 

### 22 **Harvey at ACEEE.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 201**  **1 I think the question has to be a**  

### 2 **little bit more specific, in that ACEEE would** 

### 3 **likely be comfortable with some approaches to** 

### 4 **not requiring verification for some product** 

### 5 **classes, but I think I've heard enough from** 

### 6 **some manufacturer categories, people who feel** 

### 7 **that some verification testing isn't** 

### 8 **necessary, that I would be uncomfortable** 

### 9 **making an all-encompassing recommendation.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: All right, let me see** 

### 11 **if I can word it a little more clearly.** 

### 12 **MR. SACHS: Karen is --** 

### 13 **apparently, wants to comment on what I said.** 

### 14 **MS. MEYERS: I think we need to** 

### 15 **discuss the cost issue, because while I agree,** 

### 16 **there is a need for verification testing, I do** 

### 17 **not agree that DOE has the authority to** 

### 18 **require manufacturers --** 

### 19 **MR. SHEBIK: Can you guys please** 

### 20 **speak up?** 

### 21 **MS. MEYERS: So, this is Karen** 

### 22 **with Rheem, and while I would support some**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 202**  **1 type of verification testing, I do not think**  

### 2 **that DOE has the authority to impose those** 

### 3 **costs, those new costs on manufacturers,** 

### 4 **without Congressional authority.** 

### 5 **That is a new regulatory cost** 

### 6 **burden to manufacturers, and this is something** 

### 7 **new that has not been done before, and I do** 

### 8 **not support manufacturers having to bear this** 

### 9 **cost, unless Congress gives them that** 

### 10 **authority to do so.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: All right, I assume** 

### 12 **you therefore, would not vote `yes' for any** 

### 13 **assessment program, that was not paid for by** 

### 14 **DOE.** 

### 15 **PARTICIPANT: Verification.** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: What did I say?** 

### 17 **MS. MEYERS: Well, I would say --** 

### 18 **PARTICIPANT: Assessment.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: No, verification.** 

### 20 **MS. MEYERS: I would vote that I** 

### 21 **do not believe DOE has the authority to** 

### 22 **require manufacturers to pay for it, not --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 203**  **1 you know --**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: Okay, which means you** 

### 3 **wouldn't vote for a verification program that** 

### 4 **DOE did not pay for?** 

### 5 **MS. MEYERS: Unless Congress gives** 

### 6 **them the authority to do so.** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: Unless Congress gives** 

### 8 **them the authority to do that.** 

### 9 **As of right now, you're saying** 

### 10 **they don't have that authority. You wouldn't** 

### 11 **vote for it.** 

### 12 **MS. MEYERS: Yes.** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: How many others would** 

### 14 **vote the same way?** 

### 15 **MR. KLEISS: May I amend one thing** 

### 16 **to that? This is Jeff Kleiss.** 

### 17 **As I understand what was read,** 

### 18 **regarding the DOE authority, they still have** 

### 19 **the authority to require information from the** 

### 20 **manufacturers.** 

### 21 **So, to say that there is no** 

### 22 **manufacturer verification program, there could**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 204**  **1 still be a manufacturer verification program**  

### 2 **that is limited to the supplying information** 

### 3 **to DOE.** 

### 4 **MR. HALLEY: Such as the product** 

### 5 **hasn't changed in the last 12 months, or** 

### 6 **something like that?** 

### 7 **MS. HOOTMAN: Or we had** 

### 8 **tentatively tested 20 of them?** 

### 9 **MR. HALLEY: Yes, right.** 

### 10 **MS. HOOTMAN: End of sentence?** 

### 11 **MR. HURST: Just a point of** 

### 12 **clarification. I don't think my vote matters,** 

### 13 **whether or not I think the DOE has the** 

### 14 **authority or not.** 

### 15 **So, I would like -- you know --** 

### 16 **MS. BARHYDT: Nor do I think our** 

### 17 **discussion of it matters.** 

### 18 **MR. HURST: -- people with law** 

### 19 **degrees to have -- no, I mean, it's an** 

### 20 **interesting point that needs to be resolved.** 

### 21 **But I don't think -- I'm not an** 

### 22 **attorney. I think there is two in the room.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 205**  **1 There may be more.**  

### 2 **But I'm uniquely unqualified to** 

### 3 **answer that question and my vote doesn't** 

### 4 **matter.** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: Your vote -- I don't** 

### 6 **disagree, your vote doesn't matter if DOE** 

### 7 **thinks it has the authority. They'll write a** 

### 8 **rule and you can sue them.** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: Right.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: But what I'm asking** 

### 11 **is, if you don't think they have the legal** 

### 12 **authority, does that mean you will vote `no'** 

### 13 **to any verification program --** 

### 14 **MR. HURST: My point, Neil, is if** 

### 15 **I don't think they have the authority, I don't** 

### 16 **think they have the authority, and I wouldn't** 

### 17 **contradict myself, by voting that they should,** 

### 18 **if they don't. I don't know if that makes any** 

### 19 **sense but --** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: I understood.** 

### 21 **PARTICIPANT: He is the attorney.** 

### 22 **MR. BAUMAN: Should the question**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 206**  **1 be posed as if they -- if it's determined the**  

### 2 **Department has the authority, then --** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 4 **MR. BAUMAN: -- then they're going** 

### 5 **to --** 

### 6 **MR. HURST: Then they're going to** 

### 7 **regardless of what way I vote.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: Again, we're trying** 

### 9 **to get a recommendation out of this group, and** 

### 10 **if you do not believe they have the legal** 

### 11 **authority and you will therefore, not vote for** 

### 12 **any verification program, I'm trying to** 

### 13 **determine whether we have a significant number** 

### 14 **of people would vote that way.** 

### 15 **MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel,** 

### 16 **Mitsubishi.** 

### 17 **MR. HURST: I think you're** 

### 18 **confusing the question, Neil, but I'm not** 

### 19 **trying to take that out of it, because I don't** 

### 20 **think, as John said, we're -- I'm also** 

### 21 **uniquely unqualified to answer that question.** 

### 22 **I would even take a guess at it.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 207**  **1 But I'm going to go -- if I go**  

### 2 **with the assumption that, trusting Laura as** 

### 3 **the attorney, or even if you don't, if the** 

### 4 **question is posed, if it is determined that** 

### 5 **the DOE has legal authority, and I'm sure** 

### 6 **people will be answering this question, other** 

### 7 **than Laura, then I think that is where we need** 

### 8 **--** 

### 9 **MR. EISNER: All right, we can --** 

### 10 **MR. HURST: -- to proceed from,** 

### 11 **versus you don't -- to John's point of it, if** 

### 12 **they don't -- if they don't have the** 

### 13 **authority, then it's --** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: All right, if you're** 

### 15 **going to put that condition into your vote,** 

### 16 **how will -- what will you accept? What will** 

### 17 **you accept as a determination that DOE has the** 

### 18 **authority?** 

### 19 **Will it be a written opinion from** 

### 20 **Laura or will it have to be something else?** 

### 21 **PARTICIPANT: That would be good.** 

### 22 **MR. HURST: Nothing against Laura.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 208**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.**  

### 2 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 3 **HTP. I think what we have is a dividing line** 

### 4 **here. We can put a comment segment, saying** 

### 5 **that we want to verify the authority of this,** 

### 6 **and we can still vote to submit the** 

### 7 **information that we have.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: All I was trying to** 

### 9 **do was, you know, was trying to find out** 

### 10 **whether some people would vote `no', no matter** 

### 11 **what --** 

### 12 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: -- if they don't** 

### 14 **agree that DOE has the authority.** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, I** 

### 16 **think that -- to Jeff's point, I think you** 

### 17 **have to assume that the premise here is that** 

### 18 **DOE has the authority.** 

### 19 **Now, granted, we've heard the** 

### 20 **concerns, we've heard what is going on in the** 

### 21 **room, legal can take it back. Ultimately,** 

### 22 **legal's decision, whether they have the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 209**  **1 authority, they'll decide and let program**  

### 2 **know. That is kind of how it works around** 

### 3 **here.** 

### 4 **But if we make that -- you know,** 

### 5 **you have to make that assumption. If we do** 

### 6 **have it, what is your answer?** 

### 7 **Do you support a verification** 

### 8 **program or not?** 

### 9 **MS. MEYERS: I think it depends on** 

### 10 **who pays for it.** 

### 11 **MR. BAUMAN: If it's a** 

### 12 **manufacturer funded verification program we're** 

### 13 **talking about --** 

### 14 **MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with** 

### 15 **Mitsubishi. I think that --** 

### 16 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be an** 

### 17 **acknowledgment of those industry programs** 

### 18 **currently running and they were --** 

### 19 **MR. BAUMAN: Which are** 

### 20 **manufactured --** 

### 21 **MS. ARMSTRONG: -- as long as** 

### 22 **they've met certain criteria, which are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 210**  **1 manufacturer paid for.**  

### 2 **MR. BAUMAN: Right.** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 4 **MR. BAUMAN: So, however you talk** 

### 5 **about it you have to factor that in.** 

### 6 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Exactly, and it** 

### 7 **would also be a requirement for those that** 

### 8 **don't have a more -- participating, and they** 

### 9 **would -- yes.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: Can we put something** 

### 11 **up on the screen first, before we continue?** 

### 12 **MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel,** 

### 13 **Mitsubishi.** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: Wait a second, Paul.** 

### 15 **I'd like to get something up on the screen, so** 

### 16 **--** 

### 17 **MR. DOPPEL: Okay.** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: -- we're getting** 

### 19 **people onboard with what we're talking about.** 

### 20 **Assuming that DOE has the legal** 

### 21 **authority to require a verification program --** 

### 22 **MS. MEYERS: Manufacturer funded.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 211**  **1 MR. EISNER: -- and it is**  

### 2 **manufacturer funded, would you support a** 

### 3 **recommendation to do this, to do verification** 

### 4 **testing?** 

### 5 **All right, that is up there. Now,** 

### 6 **who wanted to talk?** 

### 7 **MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel,** 

### 8 **Mitsubishi. You know, this has raised such a** 

### 9 **question about whether they have the authority** 

### 10 **and whether other -- what other implications** 

### 11 **there might be, that I don't -- I mean, I** 

### 12 **would be ill-advised, I think to address that** 

### 13 **because we don't know what other verification** 

### 14 **-- or other ramifications there could be from,** 

### 15 **you know, whether DOE does or does not.** 

### 16 **So, I think there is another area** 

### 17 **that says, you know, we're not sure what the** 

### 18 **situation is, and it would be best to get a** 

### 19 **full clarification before, you know, we try to** 

### 20 **get -- whether you're on this side or that** 

### 21 **side.** 

### 22 **I don't even know where the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 212**  **1 dividing line is. So, I don't know exactly**  

### 2 **which side to say.** 

### 3 **MR. CALABRESE: This is Dave** 

### 4 **AHRI. The legal question is actually more** 

### 5 **sophisticated then I think more that we're** 

### 6 **getting at.** 

### 7 **MR. DOPPEL: That is what I'm** 

### 8 **saying.** 

### 9 **MR. CALABRESE: It's not whether -** 

### 10 **-** 

### 11 **MR. DOPPEL: That is what I was** 

### 12 **trying to say.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: That's why you need** 

### 14 **a lawyer.** 

### 15 **MR. CALABRESE: You can make a** 

### 16 **strong argument that DOE has the authority.** 

### 17 **The problem is that depending upon where they** 

### 18 **try to derive that authority, if it's under** 

### 19 **one of the areas of the law, I think that they** 

### 20 **have weak argument.** 

### 21 **However, on the other one, I think** 

### 22 **they could, under this (b) paragraph, however,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 213**  **1 they must pay for all the testing, and if they**  

### 2 **were not to pay for all the testing, I think** 

### 3 **there would be a serious question as to** 

### 4 **whether they were appropriately using the** 

### 5 **authority under 6296(b).** 

### 6 **So, it is a -- the question is,** 

### 7 **perhaps maybe it is a fundamental question of** 

### 8 **the authority, but it is how they would use** 

### 9 **that authority, that I think would get -- we** 

### 10 **get wrapped up in to.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: So, again, the two** 

### 12 **assumptions that are up there, you would not** 

### 13 **support, you would not vote for that program,** 

### 14 **because it assumes that the manufacturer will** 

### 15 **bear the cost?** 

### 16 **So, all I'm trying to get to, are** 

### 17 **we going to be able to negotiate if a certain** 

### 18 **number of people in this room will vote `no',** 

### 19 **because they don't think DOE has the legal** 

### 20 **authority?** 

### 21 **I'm not telling you, your vote** 

### 22 **means anything in terms of the legal**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 214**  **1 authority, but if you're going to vote against**  

### 2 **any recommendation for a verification program** 

### 3 **because you don't think they have the legal** 

### 4 **authority, I'd like to find that out.** 

### 5 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with** 

### 6 **AHRI. I think, based on what just Dave said,** 

### 7 **DOE probably has the authority.** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 9 **MR. AMRANE: The question is under** 

### 10 **what section? Is it 6296(b) or (d)?** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, but the way** 

### 12 **the question has been presented is, does DOE** 

### 13 **have authority to require manufacturers to** 

### 14 **fund a verification program --** 

### 15 **MR. AMRANE: Right.** 

### 16 **MS. BARHYDT: -- which is the** 

### 17 **question that is worded here.** 

### 18 **MR. AMRANE: Exactly, and the** 

### 19 **question maybe for DOE is that assuming that** 

### 20 **DOE has to pay for it, is DOE willing to have** 

### 21 **a verification program?** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: We're just trying**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 215**  **1 to get to the fact of, do people in the room**  

### 2 **agree that we should? We haven't gotten there** 

### 3 **yet.** 

### 4 **So, why don't we --** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: But if people don't** 

### 6 **think that --** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Why should we even** 

### 8 **investigate it, if we --** 

### 9 **MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, if I may.** 

### 10 **I think that most -- I'll speak for just** 

### 11 **myself, I guess.** 

### 12 **If the --** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: You're going to,** 

### 14 **for us.** 

### 15 **MR. THARP: I'm going to, whether** 

### 16 **you like it or not.** 

### 17 **Goodman would support a** 

### 18 **verification program for everybody, so there** 

### 19 **would be a level playing field.** 

### 20 **But the rules would need to be** 

### 21 **delineated and until there are some rules on** 

### 22 **the table, I don't think I could vote one way**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 216**  **1 or the other, without knowing the full end of**  

### 2 **the requirement.** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, the hard part** 

### 4 **about this is that this gets us to whether we** 

### 5 **should even go forward with establishing** 

### 6 **rules.** 

### 7 **So, what we're trying to -- what** 

### 8 **Neil is fundamentally asking you is, do you** 

### 9 **guys agree with the concept of a verification** 

### 10 **program, a manufacturer funded verification** 

### 11 **program, because if there is enough people** 

### 12 **around the table that say `no', there is no** 

### 13 **point in negotiating the details.** 

### 14 **MR. THARP: So, the --** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: In other words,** 

### 16 **we're done. I mean, I'll say it more bluntly** 

### 17 **than Neil did, but I mean, that is what he is** 

### 18 **asking.** 

### 19 **MS. MEYERS: I still find it hard** 

### 20 **to vote on it, because while we support a** 

### 21 **verification program, if the verification** 

### 22 **program that is eventually implemented by DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 217**  **1 causes my verification cost to increase by,**  

### 2 **you know, $10 million, then I'm no longer** 

### 3 **going to support that program.** 

### 4 **So, it all depends upon what those** 

### 5 **details are and whether I could support it and** 

### 6 **the --** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: It doesn't change** 

### 8 **their legal authority. So, if you don't think** 

### 9 **they have the legal authority, that is** 

### 10 **irrelevant. That is why I am very confused,** 

### 11 **as to what are the arguments being made, and** 

### 12 **I'm wondering what we're going to end up with.** 

### 13 **If they don't have the legal** 

### 14 **authority, it doesn't matter how much it** 

### 15 **costs.** 

### 16 **MR. THARP: If you make the** 

### 17 **assumption that DOE has the legal authority,** 

### 18 **then I am very interested in participating in** 

### 19 **negotiations.** 

### 20 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Then you would** 

### 21 **fundamentally --** 

### 22 **MR. THARP: Like Dave said, and I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 218**  **1 would --**  

### 2 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Fundamentally, you** 

### 3 **would vote `yes'.** 

### 4 **MR. THARP: Like he said --** 

### 5 **MS. ARMSTRONG: That is not going** 

### 6 **to excuse you from having the ability to vote** 

### 7 **`no' on any single part of the details that** 

### 8 **are further negotiated.** 

### 9 **MR. THARP: Yes.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: I would just --** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: But the** 

### 12 **fundamental question and the answer to Neil's** 

### 13 **question is that yes, it's not no.** 

### 14 **MR. THARP: Yes.** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I've got this on** 

### 16 **record.** 

### 17 **MS. MEYERS: I don't know that I** 

### 18 **agree with that actually.** 

### 19 **MR. THARP: Yes, get the head** 

### 20 **nodding no's recorded, please.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: So, I think --** 

### 22 **MR. BALLO: I am wondering if this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 219**  **1 is something that maybe we can address by**  

### 2 **changing the ground rules.** 

### 3 **If I'm reading this right, the** 

### 4 **concern of some members if, we would be** 

### 5 **conceding DOE's authority to impose costs on** 

### 6 **us, if we agree to negotiate something that is** 

### 7 **premised on the idea that DOE has the** 

### 8 **authority.** 

### 9 **What if we added an additional** 

### 10 **ground rule that says, you know, doesn't --** 

### 11 **that participating in this process does not,** 

### 12 **you know, waive your right to challenge DOE's** 

### 13 **legal authority to impose costs on the** 

### 14 **manufacturers.** 

### 15 **MS. MEYERS: You're doing this --** 

### 16 **this already, you're doing this assessment and** 

### 17 **enforcement testing already.** 

### 18 **So, I am trying to decide why we** 

### 19 **need something else.** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: So, you would vote** 

### 21 **`no'.** 

### 22 **MS. MEYERS: I mean, you are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 220**  **1 currently doing verification testing. You**  

### 2 **call it assessment testing, and you -- and if** 

### 3 **something is wrong, you are -- so, why are we** 

### 4 **trying to develop this whole other regulatory** 

### 5 **scope section --** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Because you guys --** 

### 7 **MS. MEYERS: That was, you know, I** 

### 8 **think the -- I think before -- I think we're** 

### 9 **better informed now.** 

### 10 **So, that is why my argument -- I'm** 

### 11 **like, well, why are we doing this?** 

### 12 **MS. HOOTMAN: That goes back to my** 

### 13 **point of, I think it was added when we didn't** 

### 14 **understand all of that, plus it was added --** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: So, if everybody in** 

### 16 **the room agrees, then we don't need to talk** 

### 17 **about this and --** 

### 18 **MS. HOOTMAN: Plus, it was added** 

### 19 **in light of the statistics area, too. You** 

### 20 **know, if you already use the same statistical,** 

### 21 **you know, areas and issues that we are -- that** 

### 22 **we know we need to discuss, then it also had**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 221**  **1 issues.**  

### 2 **MR. THARP: My personal opinion is** 

### 3 **that what would be a good thing is for a** 

### 4 **working group, as discussed earlier, a working** 

### 5 **group be established and complete their work** 

### 6 **to do the analysis of statistical** 

### 7 **certification and enforcement issues, and then** 

### 8 **address a verification program, when we have** 

### 9 **that information.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: Brian is the only one** 

### 11 **with his hand up.** 

### 12 **MR. FERRIOL: Brian with UL. So,** 

### 13 **here is my question, in listening to the** 

### 14 **discussion, for Ashley and Laura, if this** 

### 15 **group votes `no', is that then saying that DOE** 

### 16 **will not pursue a verification program?** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: No.** 

### 18 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Not necessarily.** 

### 19 **We could do it on our own.** 

### 20 **MR. FERRIOL: Understood, okay,** 

### 21 **but so, just a clarifying point.** 

### 22 **If we vote `no' versus `yes', how**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 222**  **1 would that influence your pursuing**  

### 2 **verification?** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know that** 

### 4 **-- so, obviously, if you vote `yes', we would** 

### 5 **be looking to this group to continue their** 

### 6 **efforts to come up with verification program** 

### 7 **guidelines, detailed for product specific** 

### 8 **things, or at least you would be asking ASRAC** 

### 9 **to allow you to continue, which I thought is** 

### 10 **where we started the meeting at the beginning** 

### 11 **of this.** 

### 12 **If you vote `no', then it is done.** 

### 13 **The working group -- the committee is done** 

### 14 **with their working group session, then if DOE** 

### 15 **-- you know, Laura and I and many people above** 

### 16 **us, decide that verification is what the** 

### 17 **Department -- mandatory verification** 

### 18 **requirement is the way the Department wants to** 

### 19 **proceed, we would do it on our own accord,** 

### 20 **with our own details --** 

### 21 **MR. FERRIOL: Okay.** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: -- and put it out**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 223**  **1 for notice and comment.**  

### 2 **MR. FERRIOL: I think that was an** 

### 3 **important point to bring out.** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: I actually think** 

### 5 **there is a third potential option, which is** 

### 6 **that ASRAC could decide that they want to make** 

### 7 **a recommendation to the Department, that we --** 

### 8 **that they think that there should be a working** 

### 9 **group, or I mean --** 

### 10 **MR. FERRIOL: Okay.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: That is also a** 

### 12 **possibility.** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 14 **MR. FERRIOL: Okay.** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: Irrespective of** 

### 16 **whatever --** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be a** 

### 18 **different working group. It would go through** 

### 19 **the re-nomination process.** 

### 20 **So, you know, people here working** 

### 21 **on it who have voting membership wouldn't** 

### 22 **necessarily be assured voting membership on a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 224**  **1 separate one.**  

### 2 **MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. We** 

### 3 **keep coming back to the fundamental question,** 

### 4 **that everyone tries to ignore, is the fact** 

### 5 **that at this time, I believe that there are** 

### 6 **enough of us in this room, that know there are** 

### 7 **enough bad players running around in the** 

### 8 **world, that we need some sort of verification** 

### 9 **program.** 

### 10 **The people in this room are** 

### 11 **probably not the ones who are out there** 

### 12 **putting out the bad numbers, but** 

### 13 **unfortunately, with the scope and what we've** 

### 14 **heard in this room, I do not see how the DOE** 

### 15 **is possibly ever going to capture a majority** 

### 16 **of the bad players under the present scenario** 

### 17 **of testing a few units with a few million** 

### 18 **dollars a year budget, because there is such** 

### 19 **value of product in this room, they wouldn't** 

### 20 **get very far, more than 50 pieces and they'd** 

### 21 **run out of budget.** 

### 22 **So, I for one, as I -- this is my**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 225**  **1 company, nobody else in the industry, I say**  

### 2 **that we would want to support a verification** 

### 3 **program because there are enough bad players** 

### 4 **in our segment of industry, numbers that we** 

### 5 **see by testing competition products, that we** 

### 6 **would want some verification.** 

### 7 **It may be because they just don't** 

### 8 **know how to test correctly, and one good** 

### 9 **verification step through, and they're going** 

### 10 **to learn how to test correctly, because a** 

### 11 **third-party is going to make them learn how to** 

### 12 **test correctly, or they're going to get** 

### 13 **caught, just because they're putting bad** 

### 14 **product out there.** 

### 15 **But our industry right now has** 

### 16 **several players -- companies who we know ahead** 

### 17 **of time, when they publish a number, it's** 

### 18 **bogus.** 

### 19 **They aren't sitting in this room** 

### 20 **because they're not the ones -- they're the** 

### 21 **ones who are hiding out from this meeting.** 

### 22 **MR. SACHS: Neil, I'd just like to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 226**  **1 propose a modest amendment to what is up**  

### 2 **there, which would simply say --** 

### 3 **MR. SHEBIK: This is Ron Shebik,** 

### 4 **with Hussman. I've tried to follow the** 

### 5 **question that you stated.** 

### 6 **If a company, if a manufacturer is** 

### 7 **aware that there is bad players out there,** 

### 8 **could you not -- could the manufacturer not** 

### 9 **report this to DOE?** 

### 10 **I guess if you're a bad player, is** 

### 11 **the verification -- could the verification** 

### 12 **program stop you anyway?** 

### 13 **MR. HON: Charlie Hon. If they're** 

### 14 **-- if bad players get involved in a third** 

### 15 **party, they will get caught in a reasonable** 

### 16 **time window, if there is verification testing,** 

### 17 **which is independently operated by a third** 

### 18 **party.** 

### 19 **If they do not have anything, is** 

### 20 **what we have right now, the DOE still has a** 

### 21 **limited budget and if we all decide to list** 

### 22 **everybody that we consider as a bad player,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 227**  **1 how many years before DOE can actually test**  

### 2 **their product?** 

### 3 **MR. SHEBIK: Okay, this is Ron at** 

### 4 **Hussman. That is a good question for Laura** 

### 5 **and for DOE.** 

### 6 **I mean, we all test our** 

### 7 **competitors' products. They test ours. We** 

### 8 **test theirs.** 

### 9 **If we're suspect of something,** 

### 10 **we're going to test it and we're going to find** 

### 11 **out if it works or not, or if it's valid or** 

### 12 **not. Could DOE handle this?** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: To date, we have** 

### 14 **been able to investigate every report every** 

### 15 **report that we've had. We have not had so** 

### 16 **many reports that we were not able to deal** 

### 17 **with it.** 

### 18 **Now, I don't know, maybe now that** 

### 19 **I said that, we will, but currently, but we've** 

### 20 **been able to deal with it.** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: Harvey wanted to make** 

### 22 **an amendment. You've got to speak up, that is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 228**  **1 why --**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I am** 

### 3 **hearing from at least Mary and Charlie, and** 

### 4 **perhaps others, that CRE feels that a** 

### 5 **verification program will help keep their** 

### 6 **field of business fair and implicitly that** 

### 7 **it's a cost-effective way to do it.** 

### 8 **I would therefore, like to segment** 

### 9 **this and suggest adding at the end, the three** 

### 10 **words `for CRE'. I want to eat the elephant** 

### 11 **one bite at a time.** 

### 12 **MR. ANDERSON: I would disagree** 

### 13 **with that. That is --** 

### 14 **MR. SACHS: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. ANDERSON: I don't -- I would** 

### 16 **disagree with that.** 

### 17 **Harvey and Mary have a totally** 

### 18 **different segment in the CRE industry and what** 

### 19 **structural concepts zeros in on is, and I** 

### 20 **don't think that will --** 

### 21 **MR. SACHS: Well, help -- can you** 

### 22 **help please, understand what the concern is?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 229**  **1 MR. BAUMAN: Can I jump in real**  

### 2 **quick, because I think the problem with that** 

### 3 **statement, Harvey, and I appreciate the input,** 

### 4 **and I won't say that that is not a position** 

### 5 **we're talking about.** 

### 6 **But I think what we're talking** 

### 7 **about here is getting again, back to a level** 

### 8 **playing field for everybody.** 

### 9 **The CRE manufacturers, while there** 

### 10 **-- a lot of those not in this room, maybe** 

### 11 **would have a lot of issue with you saying,** 

### 12 **well, CRE, you're going to have a verification** 

### 13 **program and nobody else does.** 

### 14 **I think that is a basic quality** 

### 15 **idea there, whatever, and I think this is the** 

### 16 **idea that generally should -- commercial** 

### 17 **products have some type of verification** 

### 18 **program, but again, this -- should this --** 

### 19 **it's almost the question, should this working** 

### 20 **group have an effect on that, or should they** 

### 21 **let DOE or ASRAC go back and decide on their** 

### 22 **own?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 230**  **1 That's what we're walking away**  

### 2 **from here. We're not walking away with the** 

### 3 **idea that verification --** 

### 4 **MR. SACHS: I appreciate that. My** 

### 5 **sense has been that the industry structures** 

### 6 **differ greatly, but I'd like to go back and** 

### 7 **hear the specific concerns from Structured** 

### 8 **Concepts.** 

### 9 **MR. ANDERSON: Well, we have -- we** 

### 10 **developed -- we have totally different** 

### 11 **products than what True has. They build door** 

### 12 **cases. They're part of Energy Star. We don't** 

### 13 **have any Energy Star products right now. We** 

### 14 **don't build in that market.** 

### 15 **MR. HON: Then let me -- mind if I** 

### 16 **interrupt a second? Charlie Hon.** 

### 17 **Our product is more of a** 

### 18 **commodity, you buy it as we build it. Not all** 

### 19 **of our products is that way, but a majority of** 

### 20 **our products, the vast majority is that we** 

### 21 **build it, you buy it as it is, you can this,** 

### 22 **this or this option on it.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 231**  **1 It is not a custom design to the**  

### 2 **building structure, that a lot of CRE actually** 

### 3 **maintains.** 

### 4 **You get into backroom grocery** 

### 5 **store business, it is a totally different** 

### 6 **section, and that is why I made my comments,** 

### 7 **I said, this is true for True Manufacturing.** 

### 8 **It is not necessarily true for** 

### 9 **other sectors of ours. Remember, we had the** 

### 10 **20-some categories spelled out, for that** 

### 11 **reason, because there are such differences** 

### 12 **within the system.** 

### 13 **MR. SACHS: Now, that is very** 

### 14 **helpful. My understanding was that -- and my** 

### 15 **memory may be failing me on this, that we had** 

### 16 **already decided that true one-offs were not** 

### 17 **going to have a verification program.** 

### 18 **So, that I think your concerns --** 

### 19 **MR. ANDERSON: Right, but we do** 

### 20 **make a lot of one-off, we do have some** 

### 21 **catalogue product, we do have very limited** 

### 22 **scope of stock -- just for quick shipments.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 232**  **1 So, yes, there is a segment of our**  

### 2 **product that would fall underneath that.** 

### 3 **MR. SACHS: So, have you --** 

### 4 **MR. ANDERSON: But it's not the** 

### 5 **same product that True makes.** 

### 6 **MR. SACHS: I certainly respect** 

### 7 **that, and again, I'm just trying to** 

### 8 **understand, to see if there is a combination** 

### 9 **or if I ought to just jump off the creek, jump** 

### 10 **off the wall.** 

### 11 **The build to order also had some** 

### 12 **special considerations, and I guess I'm asking** 

### 13 **if there are ways that as a business, what has** 

### 14 **been -- if you've had time to review what has** 

### 15 **been recommended and if it would work for you?** 

### 16 **I don't -- it's a question of** 

### 17 **where there are problems.** 

### 18 **MR. ANDERSON: I am not 100** 

### 19 **percent, but there are also other say,** 

### 20 **competitors or players in our industry that** 

### 21 **make something very close, that I think would** 

### 22 **also --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 233**  **1 MR. SACHS: Okay, no, I appreciate**  

### 2 **that.** 

### 3 **MR. ANDERSON: I'm just saying** 

### 4 **Structural Concept, there is others --** 

### 5 **MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon.** 

### 6 **MR. SACHS: Thank you.** 

### 7 **MR. HON: I think you have to be** 

### 8 **cognizant of the build to order people and the** 

### 9 **customized people may not have the same market** 

### 10 **impact as we suffer in a commodity type** 

### 11 **product.** 

### 12 **Over the years, commodity products** 

### 13 **are the first to be copied and reduced costs** 

### 14 **engineering put to them, quite often reducing** 

### 15 **quality along the way. As such, commodity** 

### 16 **products are the ones which quite often,** 

### 17 **somebody else spins off and makes their own** 

### 18 **product very similar to what we are presently** 

### 19 **making, by cutting corners and doing less of** 

### 20 **a job, and not really -- and then basically** 

### 21 **copying another number, make up a number to** 

### 22 **justify what they're doing.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 234**  **1 It is much more -- when you're**  

### 2 **doing a customized product, it is not an easy** 

### 3 **thing to -- you're not just out there by --** 

### 4 **with heavy competition from all angles.** 

### 5 **You're bidding a window against other people** 

### 6 **in the same window category.** 

### 7 **We're dealing with different cost** 

### 8 **structures that we have to deal with, then** 

### 9 **what they have to deal with, and as such, I** 

### 10 **can understand them saying, "No, I don't want** 

### 11 **that," completely, and if I was in their boot** 

### 12 **-- shoes, I may be saying exactly the same** 

### 13 **thing.** 

### 14 **But from our sector of the** 

### 15 **industry, we are seeing falsification,** 

### 16 **improper data inputs. There is no way that** 

### 17 **some of the numbers we see could ever be real.** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: Okay, well, Charlie,** 

### 19 **and is there a way you could segment the piece** 

### 20 **of CRE, that you, Mary and some others feel** 

### 21 **ought to have verification?** 

### 22 **MR. HURST: So, back to kind of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 235**  **1 what Neil was saying, and I'm going to answer**  

### 2 **your question also.** 

### 3 **Lennox, through Kaiser Warren,** 

### 4 **does a lot of what you guys do, through** 

### 5 **Heatcraft and other stuff, we do a lot of what** 

### 6 **you do.** 

### 7 **My assumption, being a part of the** 

### 8 **multiple conversations that have happened** 

### 9 **prior, are that there is an accommodation for** 

### 10 **build to order types of products.** 

### 11 **I agree with Charlie's comments,** 

### 12 **that there are bad actors in the industry,** 

### 13 **that I'd certainly like to run out of the** 

### 14 **industry or get them to clean up their act.** 

### 15 **Neil, to your point, the challenge** 

### 16 **that I have is being on the CRE side, as well** 

### 17 **as the HVAC, commercial HVAC side, is how do** 

### 18 **you have multiple programs that are equitable,** 

### 19 **where I am not increasing my burden even** 

### 20 **further for commercial HVAC because I feel we** 

### 21 **do quite a bit today through the AHRI program.** 

### 22 **But I also understand that there**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 236**  **1 is a minimum standard that has to be met for**  

### 2 **commercial refrigeration equipment, as well.** 

### 3 **But I don't think an additional** 

### 4 **burden should be heaped on commercial HVAC** 

### 5 **because, this is debatable, but we're already** 

### 6 **there, but we're a lot further than some of** 

### 7 **the other product classes are, that we've** 

### 8 **discussed.** 

### 9 **So, my concern with what Karen** 

### 10 **said earlier about the date or the timing, is** 

### 11 **just what is equitable? How do you spend your** 

### 12 **money -- as a taxpayer, how do you spend the** 

### 13 **money, the Department's money, which is in** 

### 14 **effect our money, how do you spend it** 

### 15 **equitably, with the best bang for the buck,** 

### 16 **where it gives our consumers what they** 

### 17 **deserve, which is the rating that we sold into** 

### 18 **commerce?** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: I understand that,** 

### 20 **but before you get to that question, how do** 

### 21 **you set up an equitable program, because it** 

### 22 **could be very, very different --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 237**  **1 MR. HURST: Well, I think that the**  

### 2 **--** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: -- is do you think --** 

### 4 **MR. HURST: One of the points --** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: Do you think they** 

### 6 **have the legal authority, and if you don't,** 

### 7 **then there is nothing to vote on.** 

### 8 **MR. HURST: So, I think there is** 

### 9 **value to this group. As much as I, you know,** 

### 10 **love leaving my family on a biweekly basis, to** 

### 11 **come spend time with you folks, I think there** 

### 12 **is value to continuing the discussion.** 

### 13 **So, if that is the question, yes.** 

### 14 **I don't want to couch it as legal authority,** 

### 15 **because I am not an attorney. I'm going under** 

### 16 **the assumption that somebody knows what** 

### 17 **they're talking about and we didn't just waste** 

### 18 **months of time coming up here, because the** 

### 19 **Department didn't have some authority that** 

### 20 **we're now debating, you know, at 1:30 in the** 

### 21 **afternoon, at the back end of this thing.** 

### 22 **So, I'm assuming that somebody has**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 238**  **1 the authority to do something, and that**  

### 2 **gathering as a group to discuss these issues** 

### 3 **is beneficial versus having the Department** 

### 4 **follow the process of a rulemaking, we file** 

### 5 **comments, we go back and forth, then there is** 

### 6 **a legal challenge, I'm not up for that. Both** 

### 7 **of them are time consuming. I think this one** 

### 8 **is more effective.** 

### 9 **MS. DANE: And to Harvey's** 

### 10 **question, I would say that I believe that CRE** 

### 11 **as a group could segment the different topics** 

### 12 **within CRE.** 

### 13 **You know, their group has not been** 

### 14 **excluded from having discussions with us on** 

### 15 **the side meetings. We've put them -- the NAPA** 

### 16 **sends out notices when we're going to have a** 

### 17 **conference call.** 

### 18 **It's open to all commercial** 

### 19 **refrigeration groups, whether they choose to** 

### 20 **participate or raise their issues is, you** 

### 21 **know, their choice.** 

### 22 **But we bring all of their opinions**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 239**  **1 back, whether they're popular or not, or**  

### 2 **whether we know we're going to get talked to** 

### 3 **sternly or not, we bring them all back to the** 

### 4 **group and I throw them out there.** 

### 5 **So, I would like to see what is** 

### 6 **happening with CRE going on forward, and not** 

### 7 **leave it up to rest, but ASRAC will say,** 

### 8 **"Well, because these certain groups are** 

### 9 **disgruntled," or whatever, where do you want** 

### 10 **to attach to it, that all of them need to be** 

### 11 **reset.** 

### 12 **CRE would like to continue on, and** 

### 13 **we'd like to continue on with an open forum** 

### 14 **for the groups that are not attending all the** 

### 15 **time, and decide what works best for our** 

### 16 **industry.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: Let me ask one more** 

### 18 **basic question, and it might be good time for** 

### 19 **some discussion, for a little more discussion** 

### 20 **on this, not just a `yes' or `no'.** 

### 21 **For those of you who still do not** 

### 22 **believe that DOE has the legal authority to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 240**  **1 set up a program and impose the cost on the**  

### 2 **manufacturers, what would it take to satisfy** 

### 3 **your concern about that? What would you want** 

### 4 **to see, to establish that they do have the** 

### 5 **authority?** 

### 6 **Laura says they do. What do you** 

### 7 **want beyond that?** 

### 8 **MR. AMRANE: How about a legal** 

### 9 **memo from DOE --** 

### 10 **MS. MEYERS: Third-party legal** 

### 11 **memo.** 

### 12 **MR. AMRANE: Well, maybe third** 

### 13 **party.** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: Well, are you willing** 

### 15 **to pay for it?** 

### 16 **MR. HURST: How much do they cost?** 

### 17 **I'll write one.** 

### 18 **(Laughter.)** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: All right, so, one** 

### 20 **person is saying, a third-party legal memo.** 

### 21 **One is saying a legal memo from Laura. Other** 

### 22 **ideas? Other things?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 241**  **1 MR. HURST: Can I ask the**  

### 2 **attorneys a question? I mean, if you were to** 

### 3 **resolve this, without filing a suit, is there** 

### 4 **outside counsel that can be jointly consulted** 

### 5 **to --** 

### 6 **MR. CALABRESE: There is plenty of** 

### 7 **--** 

### 8 **MR. HURST: -- resolve this issue?** 

### 9 **MR. CALABRESE: There is plenty of** 

### 10 **lawyers out there that --** 

### 11 **MR. HURST: I don't think there** 

### 12 **are.** 

### 13 **MR. CALABRESE: I don't think the** 

### 14 **question is so clear cut, and I think that --** 

### 15 **I mean, like any legal argument, there is both** 

### 16 **sides to it, and you could argue strongly on** 

### 17 **one side or the other, and I think you're** 

### 18 **going to get -- you know, if you want the** 

### 19 **answer to be a certain thing, you'll find** 

### 20 **certain pieces that say they're -- that will** 

### 21 **play it off, and if you want to prove that you** 

### 22 **do have the authority, you're going to say,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 242**  **1 "Well, look at this."**  

### 2 **So, I don't know how much value** 

### 3 **that --** 

### 4 **PARTICIPANT: That is what you do** 

### 5 **when you get lawyers in the --** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: Now, come on, guys.** 

### 7 **This is all on the record. Don't say negative** 

### 8 **things about lawyers.** 

### 9 **(Laughter.)** 

### 10 **MS. DANE: Or engineers.** 

### 11 **MR. BAUMAN: Does is make sense to** 

### 12 **have the lawyers in the room get -- like we've** 

### 13 **been having CRE meetings with everybody else,** 

### 14 **and legal meetings -- I mean, I trust the** 

### 15 **people in this room, but I think to the point** 

### 16 **-- you know, I'm not completely kidding about** 

### 17 **that, is that I think I trust opinions, and I** 

### 18 **think there is a variation and I think the** 

### 19 **people - people have spoken up and they're** 

### 20 **appreciated.** 

### 21 **They all talk about this, and it's** 

### 22 **way over my head, and but I trust that they**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 243**  **1 would be able to come back with, would be**  

### 2 **something that could potentially be --** 

### 3 **convince everyone. I don't know if that is** 

### 4 **reasonable or not.** 

### 5 **Again, that is not a legal -- you** 

### 6 **know, not a legal standing or whatever, but a** 

### 7 **review of the people that understand these** 

### 8 **issues better than myself and John. We're not** 

### 9 **--** 

### 10 **MR. BALLO: I mean, my concern is** 

### 11 **that I think based on what Dave had said, I** 

### 12 **get the sense that CRE has a view of the** 

### 13 **statute, and I get the sense that Laura has a** 

### 14 **view of the statute, and I know I have a view** 

### 15 **of the statute, and I just don't see us** 

### 16 **agreeing, but I could see us agreeing to** 

### 17 **reserve the right to disagree later.** 

### 18 **(Laughter.)** 

### 19 **MR. SACHS: Neil, this is Harvey,** 

### 20 **and I guess I'm of the mind that given the** 

### 21 **ambiguities that Dave and others have pointed** 

### 22 **out to us, our job is to think about what is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 244**  **1 the right public policy.**  

### 2 **My own sense is that that is going** 

### 3 **to be much more granular than an overall** 

### 4 **statement, and I think if we reach a set of** 

### 5 **consensus recommendations, that somehow, those** 

### 6 **who are in the room will find a way to** 

### 7 **interpret the law to support it.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: The thing that** 

### 9 **bothers me is the neutral, is whether we can** 

### 10 **effectively negotiate a consensus standard if** 

### 11 **some people do not believe DOE has the legal** 

### 12 **authority.** 

### 13 **MR. SACHS: I understand that and** 

### 14 **I'm much closer to being totally foolish than** 

### 15 **a lawyer -- than being a lawyer, but I guess** 

### 16 **I'm still hearing the opportunity, as we've** 

### 17 **done in other areas, like verification, for** 

### 18 **doing some segmentation by product class and** 

### 19 **reaching understandings, on things that are** 

### 20 **workable, and once they're workable, they can** 

### 21 **be recommended, and then it's ASRAC's question** 

### 22 **whether they're legal or not. ASRAC would**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 245**  **1 have to gives its own advice.**  

### 2 **I don't think -- as John said, I** 

### 3 **don't think we're in a position to decide** 

### 4 **whether DOE has the authority.** 

### 5 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,** 

### 6 **Lochinvar, and to that point, we already** 

### 7 **invested over 100-man days in discussing** 

### 8 **verification testing, and I am disinclined to** 

### 9 **make it a full man-year invested in this, if** 

### 10 **in fact it's a moot point.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: That is my concern.** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: Neil, can I make a** 

### 13 **recommendation that we break into our sections** 

### 14 **to have a more detailed discussion for each** 

### 15 **one of our sections, and then we get back in** 

### 16 **a few minutes?** 

### 17 **MS. DANE: Is it possible to vote** 

### 18 **by industry, about whether or not -- I mean,** 

### 19 **if CRE decides that we don't have a problem** 

### 20 **with whether or not the DOE has the regulatory** 

### 21 **authority, blah, blah, blah, and we say, we're** 

### 22 **assuming that they do, we feel this?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 246**  **1 I mean, we don't want to hold the**  

### 2 **rest of the people back if they honestly don't** 

### 3 **think they can come to a consensus, but if we** 

### 4 **feel we can, shouldn't we be allowed to?** 

### 5 **MR. CALABRESE: Didn't ASRAC set** 

### 6 **voting rules?** 

### 7 **PARTICIPANT: Yes, I think so.** 

### 8 **MR. CALABRESE: And that was first** 

### 9 **established and it was -- I don't know --** 

### 10 **MS. DANE: Well, it's two negative** 

### 11 **votes, but I could see where if -- I could see** 

### 12 **where somebody could torpedo another** 

### 13 **industry's stuff, if they wanted to.** 

### 14 **I would hope that people would** 

### 15 **abstain, if it's not their industry.** 

### 16 **MR. BAUMAN: I think it's a more** 

### 17 **general question, you know, it's not, should** 

### 18 **CRE have -- should CRE outline any** 

### 19 **abstentions and the fact is, everybody should** 

### 20 **be on a level playing field, that if you're** 

### 21 **going to have verification burdens, it should** 

### 22 **be for all covered products. I thought that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 247**  **1 was kind of how we got to this -- to this**  

### 2 **point.** 

### 3 **I mean, if -- you know, we're** 

### 4 **close on ideas and I think most people in CRE** 

### 5 **-- but I think again, to the people that I've** 

### 6 **heard objections to, when they think we're** 

### 7 **kind of set back during this, like this wasn't** 

### 8 **part of it, and how come other people aren't** 

### 9 **going to have to have this type of** 

### 10 **verification programs, that is where the idea** 

### 11 **of -- in general, should covered products,** 

### 12 **commercial, residential, whatever, should they** 

### 13 **be -- if the DOE has legal authority, should** 

### 14 **they be susceptible to a manufacturer funded** 

### 15 **verification -- regular verification burden,** 

### 16 **we're going to call it.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: Let's hear from Frank** 

### 18 **and then we'll get back to whether we should** 

### 19 **break up in accordance with Phillip's** 

### 20 **suggestion.** 

### 21 **MR. STANONIK: Earlier today, the** 

### 22 **discussion was about -- the question was to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 248**  **1 make a recommendation to ASRAC, to develop a**  

### 2 **separate working group to address** 

### 3 **verification.** 

### 4 **By the way, there was -- I didn't** 

### 5 **hear anyone suggest that any of the work that** 

### 6 **occurred in this working group, up to this** 

### 7 **point on verification, would be wiped off the** 

### 8 **slate. It would be forwarded. It would not** 

### 9 **be eliminated, as Jeff said, the man hours** 

### 10 **that were spent to be -- you know, to be** 

### 11 **obliged to give them that information.** 

### 12 **And so, somehow, we've gone from** 

### 13 **that discussion about do we think that this** 

### 14 **would be better addressed on a -- I'll call it** 

### 15 **all covered products basis, by a separate** 

### 16 **working group?** 

### 17 **Now, we've kind of got hinged on** 

### 18 **this question, which will not be solved in** 

### 19 **this group, whether or not DOE has the legal** 

### 20 **authority, and somehow, I think we've really** 

### 21 **lost the question.** 

### 22 **MR. BALLO: When you talk about**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 249**  **1 getting the question solved, the only way that**  

### 2 **question is ever going to be solved is with,** 

### 3 **you know, three Judges of the D.C. Circuit.** 

### 4 **But I mean --** 

### 5 **MR. THARP: And that will be years** 

### 6 **down the road.** 

### 7 **MR. BALLO: You have to get** 

### 8 **through -- you have to get to some sort of** 

### 9 **regulation first, to be challenged.** 

### 10 **So, I don't see why we don't just** 

### 11 **put that question off until -- if you're not** 

### 12 **happy with the outcome, challenge it on that** 

### 13 **basis, but -- but I'd still like to see us try** 

### 14 **to work something out, so we would actually be** 

### 15 **happy with the outcome.** 

### 16 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with** 

### 17 **AHRI. I guess in my way of thinking, okay,** 

### 18 **again, let's just say the recommendation was,** 

### 19 **okay, ASRAC, we really think for various and** 

### 20 **sundry reasons, there should be a separate** 

### 21 **working group to address verification. Here** 

### 22 **is where we have gotten so far.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 250**  **1 I think then, as part of that --**  

### 2 **if that were the recommendation, there would** 

### 3 **also have to be information to say, "Oh, and** 

### 4 **by the way, this working group had a** 

### 5 **significant discussion about, in fact, what** 

### 6 **the," -- to say, what is the level of DOE's** 

### 7 **authority, in fact, to establish verification** 

### 8 **regulations, right, I'm paraphrasing a little** 

### 9 **bit.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: And that is the point** 

### 11 **that was made down here also, that this is the** 

### 12 **only issue on which the legal authority has** 

### 13 **been raised.** 

### 14 **So, we're asking people to stay in** 

### 15 **this room and continue to negotiate, knowing** 

### 16 **that some are thinking about challenging the** 

### 17 **legal authority to begin with.** 

### 18 **So, do you want to continue to put** 

### 19 **the time in --** 

### 20 **MR. CALABRESE: Right, but the** 

### 21 **question was --** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: -- and if you say you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 251**  **1 all think it's worth it, then we can keep**  

### 2 **coming back.** 

### 3 **MR. CALABRESE: I mean, could this** 

### 4 **working group provide a report to the ASRAC,** 

### 5 **not a recommendation, but a report of issues** 

### 6 **discussed, questions raised, and then it's** 

### 7 **presented to that committee?** 

### 8 **I don't know what the rules are.** 

### 9 **Do we have to have a recommendation?** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: There is no reason** 

### 11 **you have to have a recommendation, but the** 

### 12 **question is whether people want to continue to** 

### 13 **even devote time to developing what they would** 

### 14 **say in a report, if they don't think that DOE** 

### 15 **has the legal authority to do anything, short** 

### 16 **of paying for it.** 

### 17 **MR. SACHS: We should break that** 

### 18 **up. We want the tape -- can we rewind the** 

### 19 **tape and go back a minute or two?** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: Now or after we** 

### 21 **break?** 

### 22 **MR. SACHS: Before we break,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 252**  **1 before we go further.**  

### 2 **This is Harvey, and I think that -** 

### 3 **- as I've been listening, and trying to listen** 

### 4 **deeply, I'm hearing different meanings aside** 

### 5 **to -- assigned to the words `level playing** 

### 6 **field' and `equitable'.** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: What was that?** 

### 8 **MR. SACHS: Equitable. To me, and** 

### 9 **I think of parallels in other areas of policy,** 

### 10 **like affirmative action, level playing field** 

### 11 **refers to competition between manufacturers** 

### 12 **providing the same -- or within industry,** 

### 13 **providing similar products and services.** 

### 14 **It shouldn't be easier for Charlie** 

### 15 **than Mary or Jeff or vice versa. It doesn't** 

### 16 **refer to competition between barbers and** 

### 17 **surgeons. We understand those today.** 

### 18 **To me, equitable does not mean** 

### 19 **identical, but achieving the same goals, even** 

### 20 **though the processes might be different for** 

### 21 **different industry segments.** 

### 22 **In this case as an example,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 253**  **1 equivalent assurance against the sale or**  

### 2 **consistent sale of non-conforming products in** 

### 3 **the market.** 

### 4 **So, I think it's, to me, important** 

### 5 **to distinguish between equitable and** 

### 6 **identical, as we're dealing with such a** 

### 7 **diverse fleet of industries. End of rant.** 

### 8 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 9 **HTP. I guess my question is, if we as a group** 

### 10 **do not make a recommendation to ASRAC, which** 

### 11 **would go to the Department, what is the** 

### 12 **Department going to do?** 

### 13 **Are you going to include it on** 

### 14 **your own, now that that topic is up?** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: No, that policy** 

### 16 **decision has not been made.** 

### 17 **MR. STEPHENS: I know you're** 

### 18 **leaving us in just total limbo there.** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: I am terribly sorry,** 

### 20 **but there has been no decision, so I can't** 

### 21 **tell you anything.** 

### 22 **MR. CALABRESE: But if the ASRAC**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 254**  **1 is presented with a report of these**  

### 2 **deliberations, I mean, they would act upon** 

### 3 **that, or they would consider it, and so,** 

### 4 **that's right, I don't know, maybe it makes** 

### 5 **sense for us to huddle with some -- everybody** 

### 6 **to take a break and maybe work on this --** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, ASRAC is** 

### 8 **meeting tomorrow. So, the idea of generating** 

### 9 **a report tonight is a little --** 

### 10 **MR. CALABRESE: I'm talking about** 

### 11 **a report here, I've seen the bullet points,** 

### 12 **here are the issues discussed --** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.** 

### 14 **MR. CALABRESE: -- here is the** 

### 15 **decision -- the problems.** 

### 16 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Like I said, I'm** 

### 17 **happy to relay any message. I am the DOE rep** 

### 18 **on ASRAC. So, I think I'm the only one from** 

### 19 **ASRAC here right now.** 

### 20 **If it's a one-pager or just a note** 

### 21 **--** 

### 22 **MR. CALABRESE: Or less.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 255**  **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- or whatever, I**  

### 2 **don't know what you -- you know, you can --** 

### 3 **the meeting is open. ASRAC can discuss it.** 

### 4 **ASRAC may very well vote to say go** 

### 5 **back, working group, and keep going for it, or** 

### 6 **no, you know.** 

### 7 **I guess the -- typically what I've** 

### 8 **seen is that they -- they like to know what** 

### 9 **the working group is thinking.** 

### 10 **So, if there are opinions of the** 

### 11 **working group, especially consensus ones, it** 

### 12 **would be really good to at least be able to** 

### 13 **iron those out.** 

### 14 **So, if for example, CRE, if** 

### 15 **everyone on the committee for CRE says, "Yes,** 

### 16 **we want to keep going," then that would be a** 

### 17 **bullet point.** 

### 18 **But if everyone -- I'm just going** 

### 19 **to make up -- like, if everyone in another** 

### 20 **group says, "No, we definitely want to keep** 

### 21 **going," then I think that would be a** 

### 22 **worthwhile bullet point for them, and they can**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 256**  **1 decide what they want the committee to do from**  

### 2 **there.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: All right, why don't** 

### 4 **we break up into the groups?** 

### 5 **MR. DOPPEL: Can I ask a question,** 

### 6 **first?** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: Sure.** 

### 8 **MR. DOPPEL: Okay, so, you said** 

### 9 **that this group put verification on the list,** 

### 10 **okay.** 

### 11 **So, if we did not have any** 

### 12 **conversation, any discussion about** 

### 13 **verification, where would that be in the frame** 

### 14 **of what ASRAC has started, and what the whole** 

### 15 **process has been started? Is verification** 

### 16 **even on the radar?** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: No, it has not** 

### 18 **been discussed to date, yet.** 

### 19 **MR. DOPPEL: Okay, that is --** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, with respect** 

### 21 **to ASRAC, right?** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, I mean --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 257**  **1 MR. DOPPEL: How about with**  

### 2 **respect to the whole -- the rulemaking that** 

### 3 **led to ASRAC being formed? Is there -- was** 

### 4 **verification within that scheme?** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: ASRAC is just a** 

### 6 **general advisory committee dealing with the** 

### 7 **appliance standards program.** 

### 8 **MR. DOPPEL: Right.** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: It's very broad.** 

### 10 **MR. DOPPEL: Okay.** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: There was no** 

### 12 **rulemaking that led to that being formed.** 

### 13 **MR. DOPPEL: Well, I meant not** 

### 14 **being formed, but discussion about** 

### 15 **verification.** 

### 16 **MR. AMRANE: Whether it would be -** 

### 17 **-** 

### 18 **MS. HOOTMAN: You're saying the** 

### 19 **CEE --** 

### 20 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, so, and this** 

### 21 **--** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: The CE1?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 258**  **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, we said that it** 

### 3 **was a topic that we wanted to take up in the** 

### 4 **future. It was for --** 

### 5 **MS. HOOTMAN: It was under your** 

### 6 **questions, under CE?** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, right, and in** 

### 8 **the original RFI, we said, what did people** 

### 9 **think about verification.** 

### 10 **MS. HOOTMAN: Right.** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: We get a lot of** 

### 12 **comments. I mean, the honest answer is --** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 14 **MS. ARMSTRONG: -- we get a lot of** 

### 15 **comments saying, you know, we would like DOE** 

### 16 **to acknowledge industry programs. We would** 

### 17 **like to know how DOE's testing works with** 

### 18 **industry programs, and so, it's really been** 

### 19 **more of a -- people have come to ask us** 

### 20 **about, you know, how are you going to handle,** 

### 21 **how will you acknowledge, why won't you** 

### 22 **acknowledge, will you acknowledge industry**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 259**  **1 programs, and you know, this is a fundamental**  

### 2 **step to that.** 

### 3 **MR. BAUMAN: Maybe the general** 

### 4 **question too is, again, going back, I'll say** 

### 5 **one level above verification, since we -- kind** 

### 6 **of what we went through when we got to** 

### 7 **verification was, maybe it's by product** 

### 8 **categories, how do the groups think the best** 

### 9 **way -- the best approach is to ensure** 

### 10 **integrity of certified values, you know.** 

### 11 **Maybe for some industries, that** 

### 12 **is, you know, reporting -- reporting cheaters,** 

### 13 **or it's, you know, the Department -- it is the** 

### 14 **Department going out and buying stuff, and you** 

### 15 **know, that basic level question, I'll say** 

### 16 **above there, where verification is one of the** 

### 17 **optional -- one of the possible answers to** 

### 18 **that question.** 

### 19 **But I think we keep going back and** 

### 20 **not verification, then what?** 

### 21 **So, by industry, I think it's fair** 

### 22 **to maybe ask that, what the recommendation**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 260**  **1 would be by industry or if everybody says the**  

### 2 **same thing, then maybe we have one answer for** 

### 3 **everything.** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: All right, let me** 

### 5 **suggest we break up into three groups, plus I** 

### 6 **would suggest the lawyers in the room get** 

### 7 **together and see if there is anything they can** 

### 8 **learn from each other that might help clarify** 

### 9 **some of this.** 

### 10 **Let's take 20 minutes. One of you** 

### 11 **can go to the Subway side of the restaurant** 

### 12 **down there. The other can go to the Dunkin** 

### 13 **Donuts side, if everyone can have this room,** 

### 14 **and the lawyers can do it in the hallway.** 

### 15 **(Laughter.)** 

### 16 **PARTICIPANT: And what is the** 

### 17 **question we're discussing?** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: The question is** 

### 19 **discussing your thoughts from your particular** 

### 20 **groups on how to proceed. I guess that's it.** 

### 21 **(Whereupon, the above-entitled** 

### 22 **matter went off the record at approximately**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 261**  **1 1:50 p.m. and resumed at approximately 2:50**  

### 2 **p.m.)** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: All right, would** 

### 4 **anybody like to start off or should I call on** 

### 5 **someone?** 

### 6 **MR. BAUMAN: I think CRE, we got** 

### 7 **together with everybody. We appreciate some** 

### 8 **additional input that we may have not had** 

### 9 **quite clearly from our previous discussion,** 

### 10 **other voices being heard, which is** 

### 11 **appreciated.** 

### 12 **Basically, going through and we** 

### 13 **kind of started it with the approach of the** 

### 14 **concept of, you know, if we were sitting in** 

### 15 **Laura and Ashley's chair, kind of, what do we** 

### 16 **think would be a minimum level if we were** 

### 17 **running a DOE program and we were not** 

### 18 **certifying numbers, you know, what would we** 

### 19 **feel comfortable with, through some level of** 

### 20 **integrity to what is being manufacturers** 

### 21 **reporting and that type of thing.** 

### 22 **Everybody that was on the call or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 262**  **1 here present, was in agreement that a -- some**  

### 2 **type of verification, regular verification** 

### 3 **program, manufacturer funded, that as a** 

### 4 **minimum burden, is the best approach, I'll** 

### 5 **say.** 

### 6 **Details on that, and again,** 

### 7 **opportunity to go back and talk to some other** 

### 8 **members who might not be present, to get** 

### 9 **additional feedback and -- on that, I think we** 

### 10 **still want to do that, but in general, I think** 

### 11 **that was the, I'll say unanimous consensus,** 

### 12 **that they give everybody that was involved in** 

### 13 **that discussion that we were able to have.** 

### 14 **We have a -- as I think we** 

### 15 **mentioned previously, we do have -- I'll say** 

### 16 **that an outline is still in draft form. I** 

### 17 **don't think we're ready to present that to the** 

### 18 **full working group here even. I think if we** 

### 19 **had a little more time to I'll say polish that** 

### 20 **up, I think we can present something that** 

### 21 **gives recommendations on most of the items** 

### 22 **that we think are necessary or needed.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 263**  **1 Admittedly, there may be some**  

### 2 **items that we include, but we may say either,** 

### 3 **you know, don't have consensus, complete** 

### 4 **consensus on that or, you know, a couple** 

### 5 **things to be considered.** 

### 6 **So, it might not be a -- you know,** 

### 7 **an absolute menu of this, this, this and this.** 

### 8 **It might be -- there might be some things in** 

### 9 **there that are -- explaining a couple things** 

### 10 **that were considered in some of the** 

### 11 **discussions.** 

### 12 **So, I think that is the approach** 

### 13 **we're taking, and I think in the next -- I** 

### 14 **would hope in the next -- possibly the next** 

### 15 **day, we can -- if we have additional time for** 

### 16 **break out sessions here, today or tomorrow, we** 

### 17 **can potentially come up with something that** 

### 18 **could then be moved forward for consideration.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: Okay, any questions?** 

### 20 **Anybody have any -- anything you want to ask?** 

### 21 **Okay, who is next?** 

### 22 **MR. KLEISS: Boiler and water**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 264**  **1 heater group. First statement was we do not**  

### 2 **support DOE required manufacturer-funded** 

### 3 **verification testing programs.** 

### 4 **The analysis of certification and** 

### 5 **enforcement testing -- sorry, enforcement and** 

### 6 **testing variability needs to be completed** 

### 7 **before development of any verification** 

### 8 **regulations.** 

### 9 **If and when DOE opens verification** 

### 10 **program rulemaking, we strongly urge them to** 

### 11 **include ASRAC and the development of that** 

### 12 **rule, and the certification of DOE energy** 

### 13 **consumption ratings should be focused on** 

### 14 **substantiation of the ratings published in the** 

### 15 **database.** 

### 16 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you read that** 

### 17 **last sentence again, please?** 

### 18 **MR. KLEISS: The certification of** 

### 19 **DOE energy consumption ratings should be** 

### 20 **focused on substantiation of the ratings** 

### 21 **published in the database.** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: What does that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 265**  **1 mean?**  

### 2 **MR. KLEISS: As opposed to** 

### 3 **verification.** 

### 4 **MS. ARMSTRONG: How were --** 

### 5 **MR. KLEISS: Catching things on** 

### 6 **the front end, rather than on the back end.** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, so, how** 

### 8 **would you propose that is done though?** 

### 9 **Are you suggesting that you submit** 

### 10 **your test data, that we don't get --** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: That we use the** 

### 12 **ADDM's?** 

### 13 **MS. ARMSTRONG: That we don't ask** 

### 14 **for them?** 

### 15 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens** 

### 16 **with HTP. I think our intent was, we've made** 

### 17 **so many changes, that what we want to do is we** 

### 18 **want to make sure that the changes we've made** 

### 19 **so far, will be better filtered on the front** 

### 20 **end.** 

### 21 **Then we want the information from** 

### 22 **the statistic items that we talked about**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 266**  **1 earlier today, add that in resolution, before**  

### 2 **we work to establish the verification program.** 

### 3 **So, more of a stepping into it.** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: I still don't** 

### 5 **understand the last sentence.** 

### 6 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't either.** 

### 7 **MR. KLEISS: Well, part of that --** 

### 8 **Jeff Kleiss from Lochinvar.** 

### 9 **I think it's in response to the** 

### 10 **expression we were getting from the CRE group,** 

### 11 **of concerns of catching the bad players, and** 

### 12 **verification testing seems to be the main** 

### 13 **means that is being addressed there, and we** 

### 14 **wanted to be -- to address that, but to do it** 

### 15 **in a way other than a manufacturing** 

### 16 **verification test burden.** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, to Charlie's** 

### 18 **point earlier, or Mary, I'm not sure which one** 

### 19 **of you made it, so, I apologize if I get it** 

### 20 **wrong.** 

### 21 **If somebody -- if somebody then** 

### 22 **sells -- if somebody themselves is doing --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 267**  **1 just fundamentally running the test wrong,**  

### 2 **substantiation allows for them to run the** 

### 3 **test, them to submit the results and them to** 

### 4 **keep on going with their daily business.** 

### 5 **You don't send that data -- right** 

### 6 **now, there is no proposal to send that data to** 

### 7 **the Department, to have anyone, whether it be** 

### 8 **a third-party lab or someone else, review that** 

### 9 **data, look over them before they test.** 

### 10 **I mean, none of that is part of** 

### 11 **certification. Certification, as we agreed to** 

### 12 **it, is all on you guys. You control the** 

### 13 **testing. You control where you test, how you** 

### 14 **get to your ratings. There is a minimum** 

### 15 **required to test. You may test more. That's** 

### 16 **all on you.** 

### 17 **The only way we get involved is if** 

### 18 **you get a letter from Laura, asking for us to** 

### 19 **-- asking for you information.** 

### 20 **And so, since we hope that never** 

### 21 **happens, we will -- the assumption here would** 

### 22 **be, we would never see that, so, I am not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 268**  **1 quite sure I understand how your last sentence**  

### 2 **equates to catching bad players.** 

### 3 **MR. KLEISS: I understand your** 

### 4 **concern. I don't have a response to that.** 

### 5 **(Laughter.)** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: So, it is -- is that** 

### 7 **last sentence what you're getting at, is just** 

### 8 **that you think that -- you don't have a** 

### 9 **particular idea, but you think that more** 

### 10 **brain-storming, people -- the Department** 

### 11 **should be looking at other options?** 

### 12 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, sure.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: Can we use that** 

### 14 **sentence instead of your last sentence,** 

### 15 **because your last sentence has all kinds of** 

### 16 **other implications. I think it triggers --** 

### 17 **MR. KLEISS: The rest of the** 

### 18 **group?** 

### 19 **MS. MEYERS: Yes, I mean, for our** 

### 20 **groups there are -- for our products,** 

### 21 **especially when you get into the boiler areas,** 

### 22 **there is other ways to substantiate your**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 269**  **1 ratings.**  

### 2 **So, we -- you know, I think we are** 

### 3 **-- think that there are other options besides** 

### 4 **testing to substantiate competitor's ratings,** 

### 5 **including those currently available through** 

### 6 **DOE's assessment and enforcement testing.** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: What would be the** 

### 8 **others, in addition to that? Is there more on** 

### 9 **the list?** 

### 10 **MS. MEYERS: We didn't talk about** 

### 11 **those in our groups, in the 20 minute break** 

### 12 **out session -- yes, I mean, we have -- I mean,** 

### 13 **you've heard a lot from the boiler people, and** 

### 14 **everyone else, and you know, the way you build** 

### 15 **pressure vessels and you know, there is a lot** 

### 16 **of other things that those products have to --** 

### 17 **other standards those products have to meet.** 

### 18 **So, I mean, we've gone over that** 

### 19 **ad nauseam in recent meetings. So, but I don't** 

### 20 **think they need to be included right now, in** 

### 21 **this.** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: And I thought I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 270**  **1 understood what you said was that, not that**  

### 2 **you're -- the first sentence, not that you** 

### 3 **will not support non-manufacturer funded** 

### 4 **verification, or manufacturer-funded** 

### 5 **verification, but that you're not ready for it** 

### 6 **yet. You want to see how this program works,** 

### 7 **as it gets put in place? Does that mean you** 

### 8 **might support it in a few years?** 

### 9 **MR. KLEISS: We would do it if --** 

### 10 **MS. MEYERS: It was a third point.** 

### 11 **MR. KLEISS: We would be** 

### 12 **interested in being part of planning and** 

### 13 **developing a verification program in the** 

### 14 **future, once the statistical evaluation has** 

### 15 **been addressed.** 

### 16 **MR. STEPHENS: Where we expect** 

### 17 **there to be a lot more discussion needed is** 

### 18 **the manufacturer-funded testing.** 

### 19 **MR. FERRIOL: And testing wasn't** 

### 20 **put into the record here, because that was --** 

### 21 **that was kind of the question earlier.** 

### 22 **So, after the word `verification'**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 271**  **1 on line one --**  

### 2 **PARTICIPANT: Verification test,** 

### 3 **yes.** 

### 4 **MR. FERRIOL: -- insert `testing'.** 

### 5 **PARTICIPANT: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 7 **AHRI. Part of the discussion is leading up to** 

### 8 **the breakouts, we've identified a number of** 

### 9 **questions, various aspects related to** 

### 10 **verification programs, and I think we reached** 

### 11 **the conclusion that the -- that would we be** 

### 12 **interested in participating in development of** 

### 13 **a verification program? Yes.** 

### 14 **Does it need to happen now?** 

### 15 **Probably in fact, no, because as we noted, the** 

### 16 **information that is going to come out of the** 

### 17 **certification and enforcement analysis will** 

### 18 **have significant impact on how you might run** 

### 19 **a verification program.** 

### 20 **So, the other part of that, I** 

### 21 **think as Jeff was mentioning, is that okay,** 

### 22 **when DOE is ready to address verification**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 272**  **1 regulations, we think it should be something**  

### 2 **that, for lack of a better word here, managed** 

### 3 **through ASRAC, and maybe that's the wrong** 

### 4 **word, but funneled through ASRAC or whatever.** 

### 5 **There is an inherent assumption** 

### 6 **here that the work that has gone -- of the --** 

### 7 **that has happened so far, is now on the record** 

### 8 **and doesn't get lost. You know, we're not** 

### 9 **starting over again, when this effort would** 

### 10 **pick up.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: Would you, from the** 

### 12 **perspective of a boiler or water heater** 

### 13 **manufacturer, believe there is a difference** 

### 14 **between you and the other industries, so that** 

### 15 **they could accept verification testing, or are** 

### 16 **you just against verification testing until** 

### 17 **all of the segments of the discussion in this** 

### 18 **room have a chance to check how the** 

### 19 **certification works in the real world?** 

### 20 **MR. STEPHENS: I believe that know** 

### 21 **their market best, and they --** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: And why is your**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 273**  **1 market different from theirs? What could DOE**  

### 2 **put into a rule, to justify a distinction for** 

### 3 **your having verification testing -- not having** 

### 4 **it, and CRE having it?** 

### 5 **MR. KLEISS: There are two** 

### 6 **elements to that. Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar.** 

### 7 **I think one is that we are** 

### 8 **comfortable with our VICP and the history that** 

### 9 **that has provided in our industry, and as a** 

### 10 **secondary, that we are comfortable with** 

### 11 **challenging the existing DOE challenge** 

### 12 **procedure, when we believe there is a bad** 

### 13 **player.** 

### 14 **MR. STANONIK: Yes, there is a --** 

### 15 **Frank Stanonik, AHRI.** 

### 16 **There is a significant difference.** 

### 17 **These industries have dealt with efficiency** 

### 18 **regulations and certification in some form or** 

### 19 **another, for, in the case of water heaters, 30** 

### 20 **years at least, in the case of boilers, we're** 

### 21 **probably maybe going back to 70 or 80 years.** 

### 22 **So, they have a long history of,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 274**  **1 let's call it industry sponsored certification**  

### 2 **and verification, that in the case of CRE,** 

### 3 **just isn't there, right.** 

### 4 **I mean, to this point, you have** 

### 5 **not had it in a program of that magnitude or** 

### 6 **scope. It is a big difference.** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: Is the assessment** 

### 8 **program available for all segments? It is,** 

### 9 **isn't it?** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: So, this one could be** 

### 12 **challenged under the -- boiler and water** 

### 13 **heaters could be challenged under that?** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: You mean people can** 

### 15 **notify us and we can do testing?** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: Yes. Okay, HVAC?** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: Did everyone agree** 

### 18 **with that last sentence I added, because that** 

### 19 **is what I think you all were saying, was that** 

### 20 **if there is a future rulemaking, you think it** 

### 21 **should be a negotiated rulemaking with you all** 

### 22 **at the table, as opposed to a standard DOE --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 275**  **1 PARTICIPANT: Yes.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 3 **MR. STEPHENS: One of the caveats** 

### 4 **that we did discuss was the same people that** 

### 5 **we have currently.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: You can't specify** 

### 7 **that.** 

### 8 **MR. STEPHENS: It's worth a shot.** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: Good try.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: Okay, HVAC?** 

### 11 **MR. THARP: I hate to say this,** 

### 12 **but let's let Paul do it.** 

### 13 **MR. DOPPEL: I thought John had** 

### 14 **volunteered.** 

### 15 **MR. THARP: John volunteered?** 

### 16 **MR. KLEISS: Regarding the boiler** 

### 17 **statement, I think you can just delete, rather** 

### 18 **than strike out that statement. Thank you.** 

### 19 **MR. THARP: We would support a --** 

### 20 **this group would support a DOE required** 

### 21 **manufacturer-funded verification testing** 

### 22 **program if there was substantial different --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 276**  **1 is that right? Is it?**  

### 2 **MS. HOOTMAN: Well, no.** 

### 3 **MR. THARP: No?** 

### 4 **MS. HOOTMAN: The group would** 

### 5 **support -- almost exact same sentence she just** 

### 6 **read put up there for -- should be addressed** 

### 7 **through future -- we wanted to continue** 

### 8 **working through the negotiated rulemaking.** 

### 9 **MR. THARP: Right.** 

### 10 **MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.** 

### 11 **MR. THARP: We want the bottom,** 

### 12 **the bottom sentence.** 

### 13 **MS. HOOTMAN: Bottom sentence.** 

### 14 **MR. THARP: Right.** 

### 15 **MS. HOOTMAN: Two, I guess would** 

### 16 **be we feel that they're -- in the** 

### 17 **certification -- I can never remember what** 

### 18 **CCMS is.** 

### 19 **CCMS is the --** 

### 20 **MR. THARP: We continue discussing** 

### 21 **through this group, right?** 

### 22 **MS. HOOTMAN: Right.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 277**  **1 MR. THARP: Continue discussing**  

### 2 **through this group.** 

### 3 **MS. HOOTMAN: Right.** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: Right, so, not a** 

### 5 **future negotiator rulemaking, but as a** 

### 6 **continuation of --** 

### 7 **MR. THARP: As a continuation of -** 

### 8 **-** 

### 9 **MS. HOOTMAN: As a continuation.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: Continue?** 

### 11 **MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.** 

### 12 **MR. THARP: That is correct.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 14 **MS. HOOTMAN: There should be a** 

### 15 **distinction between -- on CCMS, between** 

### 16 **verified and non-verified ratings.** 

### 17 **MR. DOPPEL: Two separate lists,** 

### 18 **verified and non-verified.** 

### 19 **MS. HOOTMAN: A very distinct** 

### 20 **separation, whether that is two separate lists** 

### 21 **or what -- not some column that's off to the** 

### 22 **15th -- you know, all the way off the screen.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 278**  **1 Very distinct.**  

### 2 **MR. DOPPEL: Two separate lists.** 

### 3 **MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, and very** 

### 4 **distinct, yes.** 

### 5 **MR. HURST: A reasonable** 

### 6 **distinction.** 

### 7 **MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.** 

### 8 **MR. THARP: And those that are** 

### 9 **manufacturer-funded are then verified under** 

### 10 **the 2(b), right?** 

### 11 **MS. HOOTMAN: What?** 

### 12 **MR. THARP: Under -- so, there is** 

### 13 **--** 

### 14 **MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, no, no, no, and** 

### 15 **that we would come up with --** 

### 16 **MR. THARP: Okay, word it then.** 

### 17 **MR. KLEISS: Do you all need** 

### 18 **longer to take --** 

### 19 **MS. HOOTMAN: No, I think -- he** 

### 20 **was buying us cookies.** 

### 21 **(Laughter.)** 

### 22 **MR. HURST: There should be a very**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 279**  **1 distinct something, delineation or --**  

### 2 **MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, delineation** 

### 3 **between verified and non-verified --** 

### 4 **MR. THARP: Very good.** 

### 5 **MS. HOOTMAN: -- listings in CCMS.** 

### 6 **MR. BALLO: Just to be clear, do** 

### 7 **you mean once a product has been tested as** 

### 8 **part of a verification program, it then gets** 

### 9 **kicked over to that other database, or is it** 

### 10 **the delineation based on which program you're** 

### 11 **--** 

### 12 **MR. DOPPEL: The delineation would** 

### 13 **be based on, if you were part of a DAVP, then** 

### 14 **you would be on the verified list. If you are** 

### 15 **not part of a DAVP, then you would end up on** 

### 16 **the non-verified list.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: So, you're saying a** 

### 18 **voluntary participation, not mandatory** 

### 19 **participation, but still have DOE approved** 

### 20 **verification programs?** 

### 21 **MR. DOPPEL: Correct.** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: Right.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 280**  **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: You want there to**  

### 2 **be --** 

### 3 **MS. HOOTMAN: And then we would** 

### 4 **give you guidelines on what we think a DAVP** 

### 5 **program is.** 

### 6 **PARTICIPANT: Should be.** 

### 7 **MS. HOOTMAN: Should be.** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: What was the** 

### 9 **beginning of that?** 

### 10 **MS. HOOTMAN: So, we would give** 

### 11 **you guidelines on what we think a DAVP program** 

### 12 **should be.** 

### 13 **MR. FLY: And negotiate the** 

### 14 **requirements for what a DAVP program would be.** 

### 15 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with** 

### 16 **AHRI. So, just so I understand you correctly,** 

### 17 **Jill, it's not a mandatory verification** 

### 18 **program. It's voluntary and those who will be** 

### 19 **in those contract programs will be listed.** 

### 20 **Those who are not, won't be --** 

### 21 **MS. HOOTMAN: Right.** 

### 22 **MR. AMRANE: But there will be two**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 281**  **1 different --**  

### 2 **MS. HOOTMAN: So, no customer, no** 

### 3 **building owner can say that, "Oh, yes, I am** 

### 4 **buying a piece of equipment. It is DOE** 

### 5 **certified." It's not verified by DOE.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, they already** 

### 7 **can't say that.** 

### 8 **MS. HOOTMAN: But they will,** 

### 9 **because potentially --** 

### 10 **PARTICIPANT: We will never** 

### 11 **convince --** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, they won't for** 

### 13 **very long.** 

### 14 **PARTICIPANT: Well, they'll say** 

### 15 **it's certified to DOE, right?** 

### 16 **MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I mean, that** 

### 17 **is a true statement, you are required to the -** 

### 18 **- I mean, that is like saying, I am not** 

### 19 **breaking the law.** 

### 20 **PARTICIPANT: Right.** 

### 21 **MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, correct?** 

### 22 **PARTICIPANT: Correct, but that is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 282**  **1 a --**  

### 2 **MR. FLY: It's going to be** 

### 3 **extremely difficult to --** 

### 4 **PARTICIPANT: Right, but everybody** 

### 5 **could.** 

### 6 **MR. FLY: -- for the consumer, even** 

### 7 **as sophisticated consumer, consulting** 

### 8 **engineer, the difference between self** 

### 9 **verification and verified certification,** 

### 10 **unless it's explained.** 

### 11 **MR. DOPPEL: Let's change DAVP to** 

### 12 **what we've -- the --** 

### 13 **MR. FLY: DICP.** 

### 14 **MR. DOPPEL: -- DICP, yes.** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: The Department** 

### 16 **approves verification programs, is our new** 

### 17 **word -- we'll just get rid of all the old** 

### 18 **wording.** 

### 19 **PARTICIPANT: Why don't you just** 

### 20 **take a new era?** 

### 21 **MS. MEYERS: You're going to give** 

### 22 **guidelines on the verification program and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 283**  **1 what it should be.**  

### 2 **MS. DANE: So, we're going to have** 

### 3 **a 12-step program to verification.** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: And what sort of** 

### 5 **time frame?** 

### 6 **MS. DANE: We have to recognize** 

### 7 **that we have a problem first.** 

### 8 **(Laughter.)** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: It says group to** 

### 10 **give guidelines on what it should be. I mean,** 

### 11 **is this -- back to what we had discussed two** 

### 12 **weeks ago, where you think you can produce** 

### 13 **that by the end of October, or is this** 

### 14 **something you think tomorrow or --** 

### 15 **MS. MEYERS: Yes.** 

### 16 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, tomorrow and --** 

### 17 **MS. MEYERS: End of October.** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay, and the end of** 

### 19 **October, and you all were tomorrow, if we have** 

### 20 **break out time?** 

### 21 **MR. AMRANE: I have to say for** 

### 22 **AHRI, I don't think that we'll be able to --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 284**  **1 to agree to it by tomorrow.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 3 **MR. AMRANE: I mean, we have to --** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay, okay.** 

### 5 **MR. AMRANE: We'll need more time.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay, yes.** 

### 7 **MS. DANE: I think the difference** 

### 8 **is theirs is close to being ready to send out,** 

### 9 **right?** 

### 10 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Isn't that** 

### 11 **everyone?** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: Legal group hasn't** 

### 13 **reported yet.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: DOE believes we have** 

### 16 **authority.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: That is the most** 

### 18 **important part.** 

### 19 **Okay, where are we on the legal** 

### 20 **issue, if we send this to ASRAC? What do we** 

### 21 **tell them about the legal authority of DOE, to** 

### 22 **establish this kind of a program? What do we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 285**  **1 want to put up on the screen?**  

### 2 **MR. CALABRESE: You're saying you** 

### 3 **want to address the issue?** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: Yes.** 

### 5 **MR. CALABRESE: What?** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: That people do not** 

### 7 **believe they have the legal authority. We** 

### 8 **have to say something.** 

### 9 **MR. CALABRESE: I don't think** 

### 10 **anybody has raised it in the last several** 

### 11 **working group reports, have they?** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: Yes.** 

### 13 **MR. CALABRESE: Because if they** 

### 14 **haven't, the issue is still on the table?** 

### 15 **MR. STANONIK: But the premise of** 

### 16 **the question when we left was, assume they** 

### 17 **have the authority.** 

### 18 **MR. CALABRESE: Right.** 

### 19 **MR. STANONIK: So, that is how our** 

### 20 **discussion was framed, with the assumption** 

### 21 **they had it.** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: Okay, we're assuming**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 286**  **1 they have it.**  

### 2 **Now, if you don't believe they do** 

### 3 **have it, what do we want to tell DOE about the** 

### 4 **members of this group and what they think** 

### 5 **about the legal authority?** 

### 6 **Well, putting it differently, what** 

### 7 **is the incentive to negotiate a workable** 

### 8 **agreement, if you don't believe the Agency has** 

### 9 **the authority to issue a workable agreement?** 

### 10 **MS. MEYERS: Well, I think you** 

### 11 **should just say, you know, there is not** 

### 12 **complete agreement on the authority of a** 

### 13 **manufacturer-funded verification testing** 

### 14 **program and that the -- all parties are** 

### 15 **continuing to review the statute and whatever.** 

### 16 **MR. HURST: Verify and certify and** 

### 17 **test that DOE is --** 

### 18 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with** 

### 19 **AHRI. Maybe to report to ASRAC, to say that** 

### 20 **there is a question about the authority and** 

### 21 **maybe ASRAC decides what ASRAC wants to do.** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: All right, so, we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 287**  **1 report to ASRAC -- we report to ASRAC, that**  

### 2 **there is a question about the legal authority.** 

### 3 **DOE believes it has the legal** 

### 4 **authority. The following parties do not** 

### 5 **believe they do have it.** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: No, I have heard** 

### 7 **people say they do not -- DOE does not have** 

### 8 **the legal authority.** 

### 9 **PARTICIPANT: Okay.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: I mean, do people** 

### 11 **want to take that back? Do we want to say** 

### 12 **some people question, but nobody says they do** 

### 13 **not have it absolutely? I've heard in the** 

### 14 **room, they do not have it.** 

### 15 **MS. HOOTMAN: Neil, the overall** 

### 16 **ground rule says that if I vote on something,** 

### 17 **that I cannot come back and legally challenge** 

### 18 **it.** 

### 19 **I cannot sit here today and put my** 

### 20 **company in that position. I have not** 

### 21 **consulted with my lawyers.** 

### 22 **So, I cannot say -- I will have to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 288**  **1 vote `no' on anything, to leave myself the out**  

### 2 **that my company could come back and have a** 

### 3 **legal position, and so, if you force it --** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: I am not trying to** 

### 5 **force it. I am trying to make a decision as** 

### 6 **to whether is it worth it to proceed.** 

### 7 **MS. MEYERS: I think we've all** 

### 8 **told you from our work-out groups, that we're** 

### 9 **willing to continue to discuss this issue,** 

### 10 **while there is still some doubt on this legal** 

### 11 **authority.** 

### 12 **We've all given you, in each** 

### 13 **break-out group has said that they're willing** 

### 14 **to continue to work on -- on a verification** 

### 15 **program, but as that is going on, we need to** 

### 16 **get this doubt cleared up one way or the** 

### 17 **other.** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: How long will it take** 

### 19 **to get the doubt cleared up, because you're** 

### 20 **asking people to put time in, when some people** 

### 21 **will question whether it will be good faith** 

### 22 **negotiation, and if you question the legal**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 289**  **1 authority of the Agency.**  

### 2 **MR. CALABRESE: I think you could** 

### 3 **question the Agency's legal authority on a** 

### 4 **number of issues.** 

### 5 **We've talked about effective** 

### 6 **dates, and I think there is legitimate** 

### 7 **questions as to whether they're able to make** 

### 8 **decisions about effective dates, but we didn't** 

### 9 **raise that, and in my mind, I have that** 

### 10 **question, but we didn't say that was a** 

### 11 **condition to agree to there -- that the dates** 

### 12 **are --** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: I'm not sure I** 

### 14 **understand, what kind of question about legal** 

### 15 **authority to set an effective date?** 

### 16 **MR. CALABRESE: That we're going -** 

### 17 **- didn't the working group agree on effective** 

### 18 **dates for the certification role?** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: Yes, what was the** 

### 20 **question about whether DOE had authority to do** 

### 21 **that? I'm not clear.** 

### 22 **MR. CALABRESE: There are -- I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 290**  **1 mean, there is issues related to how they**  

### 2 **conduct rulemaking and how you would determine** 

### 3 **-- but I mean, I'm not challenging it, but** 

### 4 **there are questions that were raised -- that** 

### 5 **are legitimate questions.** 

### 6 **What I'm saying is, there is** 

### 7 **numerous legal questions out there. I don't** 

### 8 **think we have to address each one of them, if** 

### 9 **in our minds, we think there is some doubt.** 

### 10 **But I think --** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: I think that --** 

### 12 **MR. CALABRESE: I think it's** 

### 13 **unnecessary --** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: I'm sorry, but I** 

### 15 **think if you were in negotiations, and you** 

### 16 **were saying, "I agree with this** 

### 17 **recommendation," and you don't say, "I** 

### 18 **question whether you have legal authority or** 

### 19 **I'm not sure you have the legal authority,"** 

### 20 **I'm not quite sure what you're doing. I'm not** 

### 21 **sure why you're doing that, and I don't** 

### 22 **understand.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 291**  **1 I still don't understand what**  

### 2 **possible legal question there was about the** 

### 3 **effective date.** 

### 4 **MR. CALABRESE: There is many** 

### 5 **legal questions, but we're not -- I'm not** 

### 6 **raising them here. I'm not saying I'm going** 

### 7 **to -- it's going to be an issue later for all** 

### 8 **--** 

### 9 **MR. EISNER: Again, there is a** 

### 10 **difference between your thinking you could** 

### 11 **challenge it as reasonable, but you're willing** 

### 12 **to live with it, therefore, you think it's** 

### 13 **reasonable, and saying you don't think they** 

### 14 **have the authority to do something.** 

### 15 **So, I have to talk to -- I have to** 

### 16 **be involved with everybody in this room, some** 

### 17 **of whom are going to possibly say, if they** 

### 18 **don't think you have the legal authority, why** 

### 19 **should I spend time negotiating what the** 

### 20 **standard ought to be, if they don't think you** 

### 21 **have the authority --** 

### 22 **MR. CALABRESE: Somebody said**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 292**  **1 that?**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: Yes. Why wouldn't** 

### 3 **they say it? Why would they want to negotiate** 

### 4 **if you're saying I think you don't have the** 

### 5 **legal authority to --** 

### 6 **MR. CALABRESE: What difference** 

### 7 **does it make if --** 

### 8 **MS. MEYERS: Because maybe it** 

### 9 **becomes the basis for voluntary certification** 

### 10 **program on the -- I think this is a great** 

### 11 **discussion that we're having, and that we** 

### 12 **should -- everyone has indicated a willingness** 

### 13 **to keep going down this path, to discussing** 

### 14 **this issue.** 

### 15 **There is this outlier that we need** 

### 16 **to address, but I don't think that -- you** 

### 17 **know, if people don't want to continue working** 

### 18 **on it, then that is their prerogative.** 

### 19 **But I don't think that -- you've** 

### 20 **heard that from one member in this room.** 

### 21 **MR. STANONIK: And the question** 

### 22 **that is on the screen has been properly**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 293**  **1 captured.**  

### 2 **But we, in fact, are not** 

### 3 **necessarily debating whether those regulations** 

### 4 **give DOE some authority to do a -- to set up** 

### 5 **verification regulations, because whether (d)** 

### 6 **or (b), it does say (d), the Secretary is** 

### 7 **empowered to request information, right?** 

### 8 **So, I think the issue is, does** 

### 9 **DOE, in fact, have -- as part of a** 

### 10 **verification program, have the authority to** 

### 11 **require, and that's emphasized, manufacturer** 

### 12 **funded testing, okay, because that is not very** 

### 13 **clear, as David indicated, and there is even,** 

### 14 **I would say, impressions of the text saying** 

### 15 **information, information granted is broad, but** 

### 16 **some of us will say, well, really it meant** 

### 17 **testing. You should have said testing, because** 

### 18 **there is enforcement testing.** 

### 19 **I'm not getting into that, but the** 

### 20 **point is, that is the question, but that** 

### 21 **question is not -- should not be misconstrued** 

### 22 **to say, is there -- does DOE have the right to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 294**  **1 set up verification regulations? I think they**  

### 2 **do, because whether it's (d) or (b), it does** 

### 3 **say the Secretary has the right -- has the** 

### 4 **authority to ask for information to -- I** 

### 5 **forget the right word, but check compliance or** 

### 6 **determine compliance of products, right? That** 

### 7 **would be verification.** 

### 8 **So, I think what Laura wrote up** 

### 9 **there, that is the question and that question** 

### 10 **doesn't preclude the working group from** 

### 11 **discussing what they might think are** 

### 12 **appropriate verification regulations.** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: And does everybody in** 

### 14 **the room agree that DOE has the authority to** 

### 15 **establish a verification program?** 

### 16 **PARTICIPANT: Yes.** 

### 17 **PARTICIPANT: I think so, yes.** 

### 18 **MS. HOOTMAN: They already have** 

### 19 **it. They already do verification testing.** 

### 20 **MR. STANONIK: No, that is** 

### 21 **assessment testing. It's not the same.** 

### 22 **PARTICIPANT: You're not done with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 295**  **1 that.**  

### 2 **MR. STANONIK: It's not the same.** 

### 3 **MR. AMRANE: Yes, just the** 

### 4 **manufacturer-funded, that should be --** 

### 5 **MS. HOOTMAN: That is the issue,** 

### 6 **the cost.** 

### 7 **MR. AMRANE: Maybe it's a just a** 

### 8 **question for ASRAC to discuss.** 

### 9 **MR. SACHS: Frank, this is Harvey.** 

### 10 **Could you help me with the difference between** 

### 11 **assessment and verification? I may need to be** 

### 12 **beat for -- beat with a two-by-four.** 

### 13 **MR. STANONIK: Well, I'm not the** 

### 14 **lawyer, okay, but you will find --** 

### 15 **MR. SACHS: But you raised the** 

### 16 **point.** 

### 17 **MR. STANONIK: As Laura educates** 

### 18 **me, that the provision that addresses the** 

### 19 **assessment testing, is for 429.107.** 

### 20 **That is under the sub-section** 

### 21 **enforcement. That is the only place you find** 

### 22 **it.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 296**  **1 So, the question of DOE doing**  

### 2 **assessment testing is under the category of** 

### 3 **enforcement.** 

### 4 **I would read that to mean it is a** 

### 5 **prelude to enforcement testing, and it's also** 

### 6 **very clear, the assessment testing is paid for** 

### 7 **by DOE.** 

### 8 **Verification, in the sections** 

### 9 **which have been cited for giving DOE -- giving** 

### 10 **the Secretary the right to seek verification** 

### 11 **information, okay, is in a different section,** 

### 12 **doesn't specifically mention testing of any --** 

### 13 **at least not that I -- doesn't mean at all, of** 

### 14 **any flavor, okay.** 

### 15 **So, there are the distinct** 

### 16 **sections, but again, the assessment testing,** 

### 17 **as presented in the regulations, clearly is** 

### 18 **tied to enforcement. Verification is** 

### 19 **separate.** 

### 20 **MR. SACHS: That is actually** 

### 21 **helpful, and probably more understandable to** 

### 22 **me than the lawyer's version, not just the --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 297**  **1 MR. STANONIK: I play one on TV.**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: As much as respect it** 

### 3 **-- no, the ones who play it on television are** 

### 4 **handsome.** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: So, we can put a** 

### 6 **sentence up here that is unanimous agreement,** 

### 7 **that DOE has the authority to establish a** 

### 8 **verification program?** 

### 9 **MR. CALABRESE: Why is it** 

### 10 **necessary, I just don't understand why it's** 

### 11 **necessary to cite that, if we're making very** 

### 12 **good progress here. I think you're creating** 

### 13 **unnecessary road-blocks.** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: Can I ask you why you** 

### 15 **have a problem with saying that?** 

### 16 **MR. CALABRESE: Because we talked** 

### 17 **about it. There is a distinction of the** 

### 18 **authority they have. We've never said that --** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: So, there is still** 

### 20 **the question about whether they even have the** 

### 21 **authority to establish a verification --** 

### 22 **MR. CALABRESE: Well, I think --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 298**  **1 MR. EISNER: No, let's go on**  

### 2 **another issue, and I'm trying to get language** 

### 3 **up here, and now, I'm being questioned about** 

### 4 **why I even need language to clarify it, when** 

### 5 **people are having problems with the words. I** 

### 6 **want to find out what the problems are.** 

### 7 **MS. MEYERS: I think your words** 

### 8 **are being very, very specific and this is** 

### 9 **still a very complex vague issue, that we are** 

### 10 **all still discussing and you're trying to put** 

### 11 **us in this box --** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: I am not trying to** 

### 13 **put anybody on the spot. I am trying to make** 

### 14 **a decision on whether it is worth proceeding,** 

### 15 **or if there isn't agreement on --** 

### 16 **MR. CALABRESE: Okay, here is** 

### 17 **something we can say.** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: -- what DOE can do.** 

### 19 **MR. CALABRESE: There is questions** 

### 20 **-- where is it? There is not complete** 

### 21 **agreement, whether DOE has the authority under** 

### 22 **42 USC 6296 paragraph (b)(2) or paragraph**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 299**  **1 (d)(1). Something like that, that is what**  

### 2 **we're talking about.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: And you're limiting** 

### 4 **it to a manufacturer-funded verification** 

### 5 **program. I want to see if there is agreement** 

### 6 **to everything else, to a program in general,** 

### 7 **that is not specific, a program that doesn't** 

### 8 **include that, what -- is it all right to do** 

### 9 **anything else?** 

### 10 **Is it all right to have a** 

### 11 **verification program that requires, for** 

### 12 **example, assessment tests? I don't know what** 

### 13 **you're working out here. I don't know that we** 

### 14 **have a clear understanding, as to what it is** 

### 15 **we can effectively negotiate. I'm asking you** 

### 16 **simply whether what you have up there is the** 

### 17 **only thing you don't think DOE has the** 

### 18 **authority to --** 

### 19 **MR. CALABRESE: But does DOE want** 

### 20 **this distinction? Do they -- does DOE want** 

### 21 **this group to say -- to make that statement?** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: I think that it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 300**  **1 would be helpful if we understood the full**  

### 2 **range of what the concerns are.** 

### 3 **MR. DOPPEL: So, this is kind of -** 

### 4 **-** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: So, is this the full** 

### 6 **--** 

### 7 **MR. DOPPEL: Well, this puts it** 

### 8 **kind of in a different area.** 

### 9 **So, when we had our discussions,** 

### 10 **okay, we realized that everybody is going to** 

### 11 **be on the CCMS, and so, that is where we came** 

### 12 **up with the list to separate those that are** 

### 13 **verified and those to a voluntary program, and** 

### 14 **those who are not verified.** 

### 15 **So, that separates those** 

### 16 **categories, and then we initially -- our** 

### 17 **initial thought was that DOE could address** 

### 18 **those on the non-verified list, through** 

### 19 **assessment -- assessment testing or** 

### 20 **enforcement testing, okay.** 

### 21 **So, there is no DOE program,** 

### 22 **verification program there, you know, it's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 301**  **1 just -- so, that was -- but okay, then kind of**  

### 2 **the other side of that is that we're concerned** 

### 3 **that people who are on that non-verified list** 

### 4 **may say, "Oh, yes, we're certified. We're on** 

### 5 **the DOE certified list," and then we don't** 

### 6 **know that they in fact, are going to be** 

### 7 **verified.** 

### 8 **So, we're kind of torn between** 

### 9 **that, and we know that you're not going to** 

### 10 **sign up for us to say that everyone has to be** 

### 11 **in the voluntary program, because there is** 

### 12 **only one, and you can't say that.** 

### 13 **So, that other -- you know, what** 

### 14 **to do about those who are on the non-verified** 

### 15 **list, is problematic, and there is not a clean** 

### 16 **solution.** 

### 17 **We don't even know if those -- I** 

### 18 **mean, we know who the manufacturers are. We** 

### 19 **don't even know if they are aware of what is** 

### 20 **going on now, or if the rule was published,** 

### 21 **they would even still be aware, or they would** 

### 22 **even be entered on -- think about having to be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 302**  **1 on a list.**  

### 2 **So, I mean, it's not real clear** 

### 3 **cut. You know, there is no -- nobody has any** 

### 4 **problem with DOE doing the assessment testing** 

### 5 **and enforcement testing, it's just how to --** 

### 6 **you know, those of us who are in a voluntary** 

### 7 **program, are being good, you know, citizens,** 

### 8 **as far as, you know, we're trying to portray** 

### 9 **ourselves, we're trying to -- we're paying a** 

### 10 **lot of money. Those who are on the non** 

### 11 **verified list, we don't want them to be free** 

### 12 **loaders to get away. So, that is kind of the** 

### 13 **-- this is just HVAC talk, not -- HVAC talk,** 

### 14 **you know.** 

### 15 **MR. CALABRESE: What about in that** 

### 16 **sentence, saying you know, if there is not** 

### 17 **going to be an agreement, but the parties, you** 

### 18 **know, wish to continue discussions none the** 

### 19 **less?** 

### 20 **I mean, that shows that -- that** 

### 21 **shows an interest in continuing to discuss** 

### 22 **these issues. Maybe there is some implicit**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 303**  **1 recognition of authority or not, but we want**  

### 2 **to continue discussions.** 

### 3 **I mean, that is -- that gets us** 

### 4 **forward.** 

### 5 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,** 

### 6 **Lochinvar. I can echo -- I believe, echo that** 

### 7 **same concern of the CCMS, the listing of the** 

### 8 **products verified, not verified, in the same** 

### 9 **directory.** 

### 10 **It has been a significant topic of** 

### 11 **boiler and water heater discussions, and** 

### 12 **adding to that statement, the impact -- one of** 

### 13 **the impacts that we've had trouble getting** 

### 14 **past, is just the burden and potentially,** 

### 15 **unequal burden on manufacturers, in order to** 

### 16 **verify products.** 

### 17 **So, how do you balance those two** 

### 18 **issues, of the manufacturers, that it's a** 

### 19 **crushing burden to them, to do verification,** 

### 20 **versus the manufacturers who do voluntary** 

### 21 **verification, and now are put together on this** 

### 22 **list?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 304**  **1 MR. SACHS: Jeff, this is Harvey**  

### 2 **Sachs. I'm pretty confident I understand the** 

### 3 **concern.** 

### 4 **Was I wrong to feel heartened,** 

### 5 **that there seems to have been some progress** 

### 6 **about verification in the boiler water heater** 

### 7 **call earlier this week?** 

### 8 **It doesn't address specifically,** 

### 9 **the CCMS issue, but it addressed the issue of** 

### 10 **whether -- of getting somewhere.** 

### 11 **MR. KLEISS: Yes, there are two --** 

### 12 **two twists to that.** 

### 13 **One is that there are exceptions,** 

### 14 **there are non-verified subsets that were part** 

### 15 **of that agreement, and the other thing is that** 

### 16 **that was not the whole group, and there were** 

### 17 **some significant interests that were not** 

### 18 **represented.** 

### 19 **MR. SACHS: Thank you.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: The issue you raise,** 

### 21 **we have discussed before. We have talked** 

### 22 **about whether there is language that DOE could**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 305**  **1 put on their webpage, to clarify what the**  

### 2 **information is.** 

### 3 **I don't know whether they can** 

### 4 **consider two lists, but that is getting beyond** 

### 5 **the question I'm asking about legal authority,** 

### 6 **and I'm still not clear on what people think** 

### 7 **about the legal authority.** 

### 8 **So, if nobody feels that we can** 

### 9 **clarify it any further, we can talk about what** 

### 10 **else we want to add to this list, and the we** 

### 11 **can talk about how we proceed.** 

### 12 **Anybody have anything else they** 

### 13 **want to put on this list?** 

### 14 **MR. KLEISS: Would it be fair to -** 

### 15 **- I believe that most of us, as manufacturers,** 

### 16 **would -- if we had to make a statement, that** 

### 17 **we are not yet willing to concede that DOE has** 

### 18 **that authority.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: Okay, and the** 

### 20 **question that we have to think about is** 

### 21 **whether we want to proceed absent that** 

### 22 **agreement, and if that is not possible to do**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 306**  **1 in the near term, whether we want to go with**  

### 2 **what we've got, or whether people still want** 

### 3 **to proceed negotiating, where there still may** 

### 4 **be a serious question and whether anything can** 

### 5 **come out of those negotiations.** 

### 6 **MR. FLY: For the HVAC product,** 

### 7 **we've provided a voluntary path, which I think** 

### 8 **is still on that path, that would still need** 

### 9 **definition of what verification, even** 

### 10 **voluntary verification program is.** 

### 11 **So, at least from an HVAC point of** 

### 12 **view, I think we need to have -- we have** 

### 13 **presented something that doesn't stop if** 

### 14 **everybody decides that DOE doesn't have the** 

### 15 **authority to mandate manufacturer-funded** 

### 16 **verification.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: Other thoughts?** 

### 18 **Comments? Nothing further anybody wants to** 

### 19 **add to the list, in terms of what we report to** 

### 20 **ASRAC?** 

### 21 **MR. DOPPEL: I'm not sure that is** 

### 22 **the wording we want to put on that last point.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 307**  **1 MR. EISNER: What is the word**  

### 2 **we're -- what were the words?** 

### 3 **MR. DOPPEL: "There was not** 

### 4 **complete agreement."** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: How would you change** 

### 6 **it?** 

### 7 **PARTICIPANT: There is discussion.** 

### 8 **MR. DOPPEL: Discussion.** 

### 9 **MS. DANE: And isn't it only** 

### 10 **certain groups that still think that? I mean,** 

### 11 **I heard when CRE reported, that you know, we** 

### 12 **were past that, that we thought that it was** 

### 13 **best an industry, to meet with and open** 

### 14 **negotiations with the DOE, to come up with** 

### 15 **something that both of us would be comfortable** 

### 16 **with.** 

### 17 **I am not sure that I'm comfortable** 

### 18 **with saying there is not complete agreement on** 

### 19 **whether DOE has the authority when, you know,** 

### 20 **a number of us are still saying that that** 

### 21 **doesn't matter. We still think this is the** 

### 22 **forum to discuss this.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 308**  **1 MR. EISNER: But if one part of**  

### 2 **the rule says we don't have the legal** 

### 3 **authority to require it at manufacturers cost,** 

### 4 **and another approach says it should be at** 

### 5 **manufacturers cost, we have a conflict that** 

### 6 **has to be resolved before we can present the** 

### 7 **recommendation.** 

### 8 **MS. DANE: I understand the** 

### 9 **conflict between some of the --** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: Yes, so the conflict** 

### 11 **--** 

### 12 **MS. DANE: -- but some of the** 

### 13 **groups --** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: The conflict is on** 

### 15 **the screen right now.** 

### 16 **MR. CALABRESE: But it's not a** 

### 17 **recommendation. That's just a report. That's** 

### 18 **just reporting what the views of the committee** 

### 19 **are.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: Yes, but it talks** 

### 21 **about everybody continuing negotiations, where** 

### 22 **some of them would require manufacturer-funded**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 309**  **1 tests, leading to a resolution that would --**  

### 2 **a recommendation that would be inconsistent.** 

### 3 **That's why we're talking about** 

### 4 **whether we have enough here to proceed.** 

### 5 **You could not proceed with your** 

### 6 **recommendation, if there decision were made** 

### 7 **that there was not adequate legal authority.** 

### 8 **MR. STANONIK: But the other thing** 

### 9 **--** 

### 10 **MS. DANE: But you could get legal** 

### 11 **authority.** 

### 12 **MR. STANONIK: But the fact is a** 

### 13 **question now, as opposed to a determination** 

### 14 **that allows them to -- they're willing to** 

### 15 **proceed because it is unresolved. If you** 

### 16 **will, they're willing to run that risk, I** 

### 17 **guess.** 

### 18 **MR. STEPHENS: I think Neil's** 

### 19 **point is that may be, but there may be another** 

### 20 **manufacturer that comes in tomorrow, that** 

### 21 **starts brand new, then they're in the awkward** 

### 22 **position where it's not required by law, but**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 310**  **1 it's been industry practice, they have granted**  

### 2 **that permission to the Department.** 

### 3 **So, now, there is no legal** 

### 4 **precedence for it. It's just --** 

### 5 **MR. STANONIK: Okay, but if it** 

### 6 **gets to the point of being a DOE regulation,** 

### 7 **it is then a regulation, if it gets to that** 

### 8 **point.** 

### 9 **So, the manufacturer who comes in,** 

### 10 **they now have to meet the DOE regulation.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: DOE can't require** 

### 12 **them to do it, if a decision is made that they** 

### 13 **don't have the legal authority.** 

### 14 **MR. STANONIK: Absolutely true.** 

### 15 **Absolutely true, but then that means --** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: So, the question --** 

### 17 **these -- I think these three should be** 

### 18 **consistent. I don't know that DOE would want** 

### 19 **to recommend inconsistent parts of their rule.** 

### 20 **MR. DOPPEL: But Neil, what Laura** 

### 21 **said a little bit ago was that there was not** 

### 22 **a policy on DOE verification programs.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 311**  **1 So, we're kind of being put in a**  

### 2 **spot here to say whether they have the** 

### 3 **authority to do that or not, when they don't** 

### 4 **even really have a policy on the verification** 

### 5 **programs.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, we don't have** 

### 7 **a policy as to whether we want to pursue this,** 

### 8 **independent of a recommendation from ASRAC.** 

### 9 **MR. DOPPEL: Okay.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: In other words, they** 

### 11 **may not end up with any verification program.** 

### 12 **MS. ARMSTRONG: We have a clear** 

### 13 **opinion on our authority.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, we have a clear** 

### 15 **opinion on our authority.** 

### 16 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. But** 

### 17 **did ASRAC say `yes', then this policy would be** 

### 18 **made on the spot, right, to go?** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: If ASRAC makes the** 

### 20 **recommendation?** 

### 21 **MR. AMRANE: Yes.** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: I mean, we've**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 312**  **1 committed as part of this working group, that**  

### 2 **DOE will go forward with the recommendation.** 

### 3 **MR. AMRANE: Okay.** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: You can't do it. You** 

### 5 **don't have the legal authority to go to this** 

### 6 **direction.** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: Right, this working** 

### 8 **group says there is something where we won't** 

### 9 **do that.** 

### 10 **MR. STEPHENS: Neil? Phillip** 

### 11 **Stephens, HTP. Just a question. I'm sure** 

### 12 **this has come up before in previous** 

### 13 **rulemaking's.** 

### 14 **But what happening previous** 

### 15 **rulemaking's, when someone brought it up,** 

### 16 **whether it was allowable or in the purview of** 

### 17 **the Department, to make these kinds of** 

### 18 **regulations?** 

### 19 **MR. CALABRESE: That hasn't** 

### 20 **happened before.** 

### 21 **PARTICIPANT: This is brand new.** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: What is brand new?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 313**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: Does this ever show**  

### 2 **up in your transportation --** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: I'm sorry, who is** 

### 4 **said -- what is brand new?** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: Not just the** 

### 6 **negotiated part, but when there is a notice of** 

### 7 **proposed rulemaking and then you receive a** 

### 8 **comment that we -- that so-and-so believes** 

### 9 **that this is outside of the current regulatory** 

### 10 **--** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: The Agency considers** 

### 12 **it and makes a decision, whether to proceed,** 

### 13 **whether they think they're right or they're** 

### 14 **wrong, on their authority.** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: If the Agency thinks** 

### 16 **they're right, they issue a final rule and if** 

### 17 **people still disagree, they sue.** 

### 18 **MR. STEPHENS: And it's tied for a** 

### 19 **decade.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: It's usually the** 

### 21 **other way around. The commenter says, "We** 

### 22 **don't think you should do it." The Agency**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 314**  **1 just says, "It's a statute of mandate." "We**  

### 2 **still think it's stupid. You shouldn't do** 

### 3 **it."** 

### 4 **MR. CALABRESE: See, I guess the** 

### 5 **difficulty I'm having is, the Courts are** 

### 6 **filled with cases where people think the** 

### 7 **Government is exceeding its authority, and the** 

### 8 **Government gets sued thousands of times a** 

### 9 **month over that same question, all the** 

### 10 **different agencies.** 

### 11 **So, I don't really think -- to me,** 

### 12 **it's not that significant, whether we have** 

### 13 **questions about the authority, and that is** 

### 14 **what -- that is what the Government --** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: This is not an every** 

### 16 **day rulemaking, where there are differences of** 

### 17 **opinion about authority.** 

### 18 **This is a rulemaking where** 

### 19 **everybody has come to the table to negotiate** 

### 20 **in good faith, a resolution of a problem.** 

### 21 **If some of you, during the** 

### 22 **negotiations, believe there is a question**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 315**  **1 about legal authority, that is fine. You**  

### 2 **don't have to understand everything before you** 

### 3 **start the negotiations.** 

### 4 **But an Agency wouldn't generally** 

### 5 **agree to a negotiated rulemaking, if they** 

### 6 **thought people didn't think they had the** 

### 7 **authority, they should rule in the first place** 

### 8 **and weren't going to negotiate on those** 

### 9 **issues, because they didn't have authority.** 

### 10 **MR. CALABRESE: You can't change** 

### 11 **people's thoughts and their minds. People are** 

### 12 **going to have them. You can't dictate where** 

### 13 **our views are, and I don't think that --** 

### 14 **that's not an answer to the question, frankly.** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: Where have I dictated** 

### 16 **anybody's views on this?** 

### 17 **I've asked simply whether you have** 

### 18 **a position that will prevent you from voting** 

### 19 **for a resolution -- on a recommendation,** 

### 20 **because you don't believe the Agency has the** 

### 21 **authority.** 

### 22 **MR. CALABRESE: I think the answer**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 316**  **1 is right there, that we're willing to move**  

### 2 **forward despite questions that we have.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: But the question is** 

### 4 **not whether you're willing to move forward,** 

### 5 **where you don't have the legal -- you don't** 

### 6 **think they have legal authority. It's whether** 

### 7 **it is worth continuing negotiations, when one** 

### 8 **party doesn't believe they have the authority,** 

### 9 **or two parties or 10 parties or 15 parties.** 

### 10 **I am trying to find out what it is** 

### 11 **that people don't believe the Agency has** 

### 12 **authority to do, so that I can make a** 

### 13 **recommendation on whether it's worth** 

### 14 **proceeding.** 

### 15 **MR. CALABRESE: Well, I think the** 

### 16 **committee is making a recommendation. You're** 

### 17 **mediating this group, right?** 

### 18 **So, if the committee believes we** 

### 19 **should move forward --** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: Exactly. No, I can** 

### 21 **make --** 

### 22 **MR. CALABRESE: -- it's the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 317**  **1 committee's role to make that decision.**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: I'm sorry, but one of** 

### 3 **the jobs I'm supposed to do is make a** 

### 4 **recommendation on whether I think we can** 

### 5 **proceed in good faith, to negotiate a rule,** 

### 6 **and I'm trying to understand what the issues** 

### 7 **are, so I can make that determination.** 

### 8 **This is the first time you've been** 

### 9 **at a meeting. I've said many, many times in** 

### 10 **these meetings --** 

### 11 **MR. CALABRESE: Not the first** 

### 12 **time.** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: -- I don't make the** 

### 14 **decisions. I'm simply pointing things out.** 

### 15 **I'm trying to understand what the problem is,** 

### 16 **so I know whether we have a possibility of a** 

### 17 **good faith effort being made here.** 

### 18 **I am not saying anybody is acting** 

### 19 **in bad faith. I'm trying to make a decision** 

### 20 **on whether I think it's okay to proceed,** 

### 21 **whether it's worth proceeding.** 

### 22 **MR. DOPPEL: So, Neil, from the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 318**  **1 HVAC side, okay, all the HVAC manufacturers**  

### 2 **are already paying -- we are already self** 

### 3 **funding in a voluntary program, okay.** 

### 4 **So, you know, it's not a matter of** 

### 5 **paying money to do verification. We are** 

### 6 **already doing that, okay. There are others** 

### 7 **who are not there.** 

### 8 **So, I mean, it's -- this is kind** 

### 9 **of a question that is -- I mean, it's not a** 

### 10 **matter of money. It's like we're saying, we** 

### 11 **already have a program, so we're uncertain as** 

### 12 **to whether DOE is going to add something on** 

### 13 **top of that or around that.** 

### 14 **So, there is -- it's more of an** 

### 15 **uncertainty, because I mean, it's not that we** 

### 16 **don't want -- you know, we're not going to** 

### 17 **verify what we have. That is not the -- that** 

### 18 **is not the issue.** 

### 19 **It's that there is -- we're** 

### 20 **already doing that. So, why should we say** 

### 21 **that DOE has the authority to require that we** 

### 22 **do what we're already doing?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 319**  **1 MR. EISNER: Well, I think DOE has**  

### 2 **to require it, especially for new entrance** 

### 3 **into the marketplace, in your area.** 

### 4 **So, I think DOE would say, "You** 

### 5 **either must participate in a voluntary** 

### 6 **program, or," am I wrong?** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: You said voluntary.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: What?** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: You said must** 

### 10 **participate in a voluntary program.** 

### 11 **MR. DOPPEL: But see, that** 

### 12 **statement is, DOE has the authority to** 

### 13 **establish a mandatory manufacturer** 

### 14 **verification program. That is not what we're** 

### 15 **talking about, at all.** 

### 16 **We are participating in a** 

### 17 **voluntary program, and we are saying that DOE** 

### 18 **should okay that, which is different than** 

### 19 **establish a required program.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: I understand it as** 

### 21 **being a little bit different from that. They** 

### 22 **don't have any authority to require people to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 320**  **1 satisfy the program, by being in a voluntary**  

### 2 **one, because you're saying they can't require** 

### 3 **that.** 

### 4 **MR. DOPPEL: But this is just** 

### 5 **saying that DOE is establishing a program. We** 

### 6 **already are in a program.** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: No, Laura, I don't --** 

### 8 **MS. HOOTMAN: We don't want to go** 

### 9 **over and above what we're already doing in the** 

### 10 **marketplace today.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: Exactly, but they** 

### 12 **have to require some minimum standard and they** 

### 13 **can accept participation. That is what I** 

### 14 **thought we've been talking about, they are** 

### 15 **accepting participation in a voluntary** 

### 16 **program.** 

### 17 **MR. DOPPEL: Well, so, then that** 

### 18 **is -- that is a whole different statement** 

### 19 **then.** 

### 20 **MS. HOOTMAN: So --** 

### 21 **MR. DOPPEL: That DOE, I think** 

### 22 **everyone agrees that DOE can require**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 321**  **1 verification of ratings that are on CCMS,**  

### 2 **because that is -- I mean, that is the whole** 

### 3 **purpose. That was the whole question.** 

### 4 **So, then it's an issue of how is** 

### 5 **that funded?** 

### 6 **So, that is like questioning -- I** 

### 7 **mean, the question is, you know, who pays for** 

### 8 **it, and that is like a detail to be sorted** 

### 9 **out.** 

### 10 **I don't think there is any doubt** 

### 11 **that, HVAC speaking, that you know, DOE can** 

### 12 **require participation in a verification** 

### 13 **program, whether it -- and it should be a** 

### 14 **voluntary program.** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: But then it's not** 

### 16 **required.** 

### 17 **MR. DOPPEL: But this statement --** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: Then it's not** 

### 19 **required.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: If you are required** 

### 21 **to --** 

### 22 **MR. DOPPEL: But how can you have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 322**  **1 a required voluntary program?**  

### 2 **PARTICIPANT: You can't.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: Right, you actually** 

### 4 **just said the same thing too. I think people** 

### 5 **have the `v' in their head and they say** 

### 6 **voluntary, instead of verification but --** 

### 7 **MR. DOPPEL: Well, but that is** 

### 8 **what we want to set up, is that you know, that** 

### 9 **a voluntary program is acceptable.** 

### 10 **MS. HOOTMAN: In place of --** 

### 11 **PARTICIPANT: In lieu of.** 

### 12 **MS. HOOTMAN: In lieu of, not in** 

### 13 **addition to.** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: But how would the** 

### 15 **rule be written? I'm assuming it would be** 

### 16 **written as follows.** 

### 17 **You must meet the standards of** 

### 18 **this rule, which can be met by participating,** 

### 19 **for example, in an AHRI program.** 

### 20 **You participate in AHRI. You've** 

### 21 **met the rule. DOT has required you to meet it** 

### 22 **through that or some other means.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 323**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: That is not what I**  

### 2 **got out of your report-out.** 

### 3 **MR. HURST: What did you get out** 

### 4 **of it?** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: That you don't have** 

### 6 **to participate in any verification, but that** 

### 7 **if you participate in verification, your name** 

### 8 **goes on a different list on CCMS.** 

### 9 **MR. HURST: Right, that is** 

### 10 **correct.** 

### 11 **PARTICIPANT: That's what it says.** 

### 12 **MR. HURST: But we said that is --** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: But that is not what** 

### 14 **I got --** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not what** 

### 16 **you just said.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: That is not what you** 

### 18 **just said.** 

### 19 **MR. DOPPEL: There was two parts** 

### 20 **to that. That is the first part. You know,** 

### 21 **but then how do you treat, that is the** 

### 22 **conundrum, how do you treat those --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 324**  **1 MS. HOOTMAN: To give guidelines**  

### 2 **by the end of October --** 

### 3 **MR. DOPPEL: Right.** 

### 4 **MS. HOOTMAN: -- which we had to** 

### 5 **give --** 

### 6 **MR. DOPPEL: And we said we would** 

### 7 **give guidelines on how those --** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: But on the voluntary** 

### 9 **-- but on voluntary, and what I thought you** 

### 10 **just said was that you agree everybody should** 

### 11 **be subjected to some mandatory verification,** 

### 12 **and that participation in voluntary program** 

### 13 **could count towards that, but that everybody** 

### 14 **should have some mandatory verification** 

### 15 **testing.** 

### 16 **MR. DOPPEL: Right.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: Which is not what I** 

### 18 **--** 

### 19 **MS. HOOTMAN: That is my opinion,** 

### 20 **it's not necessarily the rest of them --** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 22 **MS. HOOTMAN: -- because we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 325**  **1 haven't gotten there.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay, because that** 

### 3 **is not what I read that to say.** 

### 4 **MS. HOOTMAN: Right, and that's** 

### 5 **right, that doesn't say that, that is why I** 

### 6 **said that's my opinion.** 

### 7 **MS. MEYERS: Hence the need for us** 

### 8 **to continue this working group in addressing** 

### 9 **some of these issues, to see where we can get.** 

### 10 **There is a lot of strategy here on** 

### 11 **how I think we should proceed. I think the** 

### 12 **strategy will be different between each one of** 

### 13 **the groups.** 

### 14 **Certainly, I think HVAC is in a** 

### 15 **different position and then CRE, and so, those** 

### 16 **strategies are going to be different.** 

### 17 **I think it's very important that** 

### 18 **we continue these discussions, and you know,** 

### 19 **if it is in fact, determined that DOE doesn't** 

### 20 **have the authority, I don't think the work is** 

### 21 **-- will be useless.** 

### 22 **I think these industries can use**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 326**  **1 that work to either set up their own voluntary**  

### 2 **program or they can -- you know, or we can set** 

### 3 **it up within a narrower assessment testing** 

### 4 **thing within DOE.** 

### 5 **I just think it's important that** 

### 6 **we keep this up. There is a lot of options** 

### 7 **still out there, that we haven't even gotten** 

### 8 **to yet, and I'm not ready to give up on this,** 

### 9 **and I'm not ready to make any firm statements** 

### 10 **yet, because I want to listen to what everyone** 

### 11 **else has to say, and you know, hopefully get** 

### 12 **to an end point.** 

### 13 **But are we -- am I ready to get to** 

### 14 **an end point yet? No, I think we haven't** 

### 15 **looked at all the options.** 

### 16 **You know, maybe for one group that** 

### 17 **is not even -- you know, maybe another DOE** 

### 18 **covered product has a completely different** 

### 19 **strategy for verification testing. Maybe it's** 

### 20 **all at the front end. Maybe it's not** 

### 21 **different verification testing.** 

### 22 **You know, maybe it's a way in, you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 327**  **1 know, how they step -- certify their AEDM's.**  

### 2 **Maybe they agree that DOE should verify the** 

### 3 **AEDM's, as part of a verification program.** 

### 4 **I mean, there is thousands of** 

### 5 **options out there, and many of those won't** 

### 6 **work for this industry, but they may work for** 

### 7 **some other industries, and so, I think that** 

### 8 **from my company's view point, it is important** 

### 9 **that we continue these discussions and try and** 

### 10 **see if we can come up with some different** 

### 11 **strategies to make sure that the ratings on** 

### 12 **the CCMS database are substantiated.** 

### 13 **That is what I'm worried about.** 

### 14 **I'm not worried about my ratings. I'm not** 

### 15 **worried about my competitors that are in a** 

### 16 **VICP. I am worried about those manufacturers** 

### 17 **who do not have that, and with this DOE CCMS** 

### 18 **website, I think there needs to be a way to** 

### 19 **check that.** 

### 20 **I think the assessment and** 

### 21 **enforcement rules that we have today can work.** 

### 22 **I think -- but you know, do they need to be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 328**  **1 put up for some industries? Possibly.**  

### 2 **But you know, I just -- you know,** 

### 3 **I don't want Neil to indicate to the ASRAC** 

### 4 **committee that this group is, you know,** 

### 5 **unwilling to continue the discussions, because** 

### 6 **I have not heard that from one working group** 

### 7 **member, and I'm concerned that, you know, Neil** 

### 8 **is getting -- he thinks that we can't find** 

### 9 **resolution, and I totally disagree with that.** 

### 10 **MR. DOPPEL: I think part of the** 

### 11 **problem is that -- just that the operative** 

### 12 **part of that statement, DOE has the authority** 

### 13 **to establish a mandatory manufacturer-funded** 

### 14 **verification program.** 

### 15 **That in and of itself gives DOE** 

### 16 **authority way beyond what we were** 

### 17 **contemplating here, because it says that DOE** 

### 18 **essentially could tell AHRI, you no longer** 

### 19 **have a valid verification program and so,** 

### 20 **we're starting up the DOE verification** 

### 21 **program.** 

### 22 **That is not what -- I mean, I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 329**  **1 don't think anyone on HVAC would want that to**  

### 2 **happen, because there is a lot of things that** 

### 3 **we do within AHRI advocacy-wise and standards** 

### 4 **wise, that are -- make that an important trade** 

### 5 **association.** 

### 6 **So, that is -- I just don't like** 

### 7 **that statement, because it doesn't frame what** 

### 8 **we're actually talking about.** 

### 9 **MR. EISNER: You don't like this** 

### 10 **sentence or -- that's up there already or --** 

### 11 **MR. DOPPEL: It's that statement** 

### 12 **that is up there, it's just -- does not frame** 

### 13 **at all, what the discussion is.** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: So, how would you** 

### 15 **rewrite it?** 

### 16 **MS. BARHYDT: Because I thought** 

### 17 **that somebody else thought that it did frame.** 

### 18 **So, now, I'm really confused, Paul.** 

### 19 **MR. STANONIK: Can you scroll back** 

### 20 **up and go -- before the break, what was the** 

### 21 **question that was one the screen?** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: I just saw it there.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 330**  **1 MR. STANONIK: I would say that**  

### 2 **what Laura had -- whoever typed that, that is** 

### 3 **answering that question.** 

### 4 **Now, if that is now the wrong** 

### 5 **question, then it's the wrong question, but** 

### 6 **what follows, answers that specific question.** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: Actually, that wasn't** 

### 8 **the question we asked the sub-groups to go out** 

### 9 **and verify -- talk about.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: No, it was the --** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: This was the question** 

### 12 **we were --** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: We were talking** 

### 14 **about.** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: -- we were talking** 

### 16 **about.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: And whether or not we** 

### 19 **could vote on it, vote on whether we wanted to** 

### 20 **say that, would you support their authority --** 

### 21 **a recommendation? We agreed, there wasn't** 

### 22 **even consensus on how to word the question**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 331**  **1 yet.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: I think that --** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: I'm sorry, let's go** 

### 4 **back to what was up on the screen, that you** 

### 5 **were saying, Paul, I think you said -- were** 

### 6 **saying you didn't think it was worded** 

### 7 **properly.** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: So, we can't --** 

### 9 **MR. EISNER: How would you rewrite** 

### 10 **that?** 

### 11 **MR. DOPPEL: Basically, we're** 

### 12 **trying to figure out, and all the parties are** 

### 13 **trying to figure out how a verification** 

### 14 **program would fit in their product categories.** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: So, Paul, I think** 

### 16 **that is a different issue.** 

### 17 **MR. DOPPEL: Right.** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: I mean, yes,** 

### 19 **everybody in here is trying to figure out how** 

### 20 **to come up with a program that would work for** 

### 21 **their products, and that is what we've been** 

### 22 **doing for well over a month.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 332**  **1 But the issue that came up this**  

### 2 **morning for the first time is, people** 

### 3 **expressing a belief that DOE did not have** 

### 4 **authority to mandate participation in a** 

### 5 **verification program that is funded by** 

### 6 **manufacturers, which is why I wrote it up** 

### 7 **there that way, with all those pieces, it's** 

### 8 **mandatory, it's manufacturer-funded and it's** 

### 9 **a verification program, that it's the** 

### 10 **combination of those three factors together,** 

### 11 **that there is question over.** 

### 12 **I think, as you know, I mean,** 

### 13 **it's a huge input of resources by all of you,** 

### 14 **but it's a huge input of resources by the** 

### 15 **Department, and if we're going to spend** 

### 16 **another three months negotiating every last** 

### 17 **detail of a verification program, only to be** 

### 18 **challenged in Court and end up with no** 

### 19 **verification program, then what are we doing?** 

### 20 **MR. AMRANE: Right.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: And so, to me, that** 

### 22 **calls into question about how committed are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 333**  **1 people to really negotiating all the details**  

### 2 **if, really, they're thinking, well, we're just** 

### 3 **going to walk out of here and we're going to** 

### 4 **sue on the rule for lack of authority.** 

### 5 **MR. HURST: I can answer that from** 

### 6 **my perspective. I mean, I hate to drudge up,** 

### 7 **you know, a recent wound, but regional** 

### 8 **standards are dealing with that right now, and** 

### 9 **I think the concern is that I'm going to run** 

### 10 **out of here and call my legal counsel and gin** 

### 11 **up opposition.** 

### 12 **But we represent the industry. We** 

### 13 **don't speak for every single entity within the** 

### 14 **industry.** 

### 15 **So, from my perspective, Lennox's** 

### 16 **perspective, I would prefer to get** 

### 17 **clarification and make sure that we have kind** 

### 18 **of run all the traps before going further down** 

### 19 **the path, and then have, you know, somebody** 

### 20 **chuck a curveball and it hits us upside the** 

### 21 **head.** 

### 22 **So, my concern isn't that I don't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 334**  **1 think the Department has the authority or**  

### 2 **whether they do. Like I stated before, my** 

### 3 **opinion, my legal opinion really doesn't** 

### 4 **matter.** 

### 5 **But what does matter is if we go** 

### 6 **further down the path and we start** 

### 7 **implementation, whatever implementation looks** 

### 8 **like, and it gets challenged by somebody that** 

### 9 **is not sitting in this room.** 

### 10 **I would have much rather solved that and had** 

### 11 **a definitive legal opinion that both sides** 

### 12 **agree upon early in the process versus late in** 

### 13 **the process, because the regional standards** 

### 14 **piece on the residential side has been** 

### 15 **extremely painful.** 

### 16 **We've spent a lot of money in** 

### 17 **product development for a standard that, to** 

### 18 **this day, we still don't know if it's going to** 

### 19 **go into effect, and if it does, we don't know** 

### 20 **when.** 

### 21 **So, my preference, my personal** 

### 22 **preference, my non-legally informed opinion is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 335**  **1 that we get this figured out early versus**  

### 2 **late, if there is a concern, which I hear** 

### 3 **there is.** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: But that sounds to** 

### 5 **me like an argument in favor of holding** 

### 6 **everything in abeyance, as opposed to** 

### 7 **continuing to plow forward.** 

### 8 **MR. HURST: No, I don't agree with** 

### 9 **that. Because, you know, let's say** 

### 10 **hypothetically I didn't think the Department** 

### 11 **has the authority. I could be wrong. I might** 

### 12 **be wrong and I probably am wrong, but that** 

### 13 **doesn't mean that we can't still have** 

### 14 **productive discussions on what we've been** 

### 15 **doing.** 

### 16 **I think these discussions, to** 

### 17 **Karen's point, is they have been very** 

### 18 **productive and this isn't the only avenue to** 

### 19 **achieve whatever the Department's objectives** 

### 20 **are, because what I have heard and what I've** 

### 21 **been surprised by is the Department's** 

### 22 **objectives match a lot of our objectives, as**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 336**  **1 well.**  

### 2 **We don't want to see consumers or** 

### 3 **customers get ripped off. We'd like to go** 

### 4 **after the bad actors in the various product** 

### 5 **categories. I think we can all agree on that.** 

### 6 **So, whether this is the right** 

### 7 **approach or not, I don't know, but I think the** 

### 8 **discussions are very positive.** 

### 9 **MR. BALLO: But the kind of** 

### 10 **certainty you're looking for on what the** 

### 11 **Department is empowered to do just can't** 

### 12 **happen.** 

### 13 **You know, the only way to achieve** 

### 14 **certainty is by consensus. If everyone agrees** 

### 15 **that the Department is going to do something,** 

### 16 **no one will challenge it, and if no one sues,** 

### 17 **then they have the authority.** 

### 18 **(Laughter.)** 

### 19 **MR. DOPPEL: But Tim, like he** 

### 20 **said, you know, we can all say in here we're** 

### 21 **not going to sue, and there could be 20 people** 

### 22 **on the phone right now, that are running to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 337**  **1 their lawyers and saying, "Hey, let's," --**  

### 2 **MR. BALLO: But that is -- there** 

### 3 **is nothing you can do about that.** 

### 4 **MR. HURST: That's right, yes.** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: There is nothing you** 

### 6 **can do about that, but when people in the room** 

### 7 **are saying, "I don't know if I'm going to** 

### 8 **sue," I mean, it calls into question whether** 

### 9 **we're all here --** 

### 10 **MR. CALABRESE: I don't think** 

### 11 **anybody is and I don't think we ever** 

### 12 **contemplated that.** 

### 13 **I mean, we're raising these** 

### 14 **questions that I think need to be addressed,** 

### 15 **but I'll say from an AHRI standpoint, at this** 

### 16 **point, a lawsuit is certainly not being** 

### 17 **contemplated.** 

### 18 **So, I mean, you know, I don't know** 

### 19 **what else to say.** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: I mean, my** 

### 21 **impression from the wording this morning was** 

### 22 **far more definitive than that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 338**  **1 MR. STEPHENS: I think our group,**  

### 2 **the answer, we may want to reconsider, because** 

### 3 **our response in the boiler and water heater** 

### 4 **section did not match Karen's -- will she be** 

### 5 **back?** 

### 6 **MR. DOPPEL: No.** 

### 7 **MR. STEPHENS: Okay, our response** 

### 8 **we agreed to did not match what Karen said a** 

### 9 **while ago, at least my interpretation of our** 

### 10 **agreement in our break-out session did not** 

### 11 **match what Karen said a while ago.** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: Which part of what** 

### 13 **she said?** 

### 14 **MR. HURST: What are you not** 

### 15 **agreeing with?** 

### 16 **MR. STEPHENS: The way this is** 

### 17 **written, we are deferring this --** 

### 18 **MR. HURST: What specifically?** 

### 19 **What piece are you referring to?** 

### 20 **MR. STEPHENS: She said -- she was** 

### 21 **very adamant a few minutes ago about being** 

### 22 **very positive, very constructive of this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 339**  **1 current process and very supportive to**  

### 2 **continuing.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: And that's not that** 

### 4 **language?** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: That is not what** 

### 6 **that says and that is not what came out of our** 

### 7 **break-out session.** 

### 8 **I am more inclined to agree with** 

### 9 **what she just said than what we put up here in** 

### 10 **print.** 

### 11 **MR. FERRIOL: So, how would you** 

### 12 **reword it?** 

### 13 **MR. STEPHENS: With a break-out** 

### 14 **session, so we can reword it together.** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: All right, why don't** 

### 16 **we take a 10 minute break?** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 18 **(Whereupon, the above-entitled** 

### 19 **matter went off the record at 3:57 p.m. and** 

### 20 **resumed at approximately 4:29 p.m.)** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: Paul, do you want to** 

### 22 **go back to the language again and suggest**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 340**  **1 anything?**  

### 2 **MR. DOPPEL: So, rather than** 

### 3 **establish a mandatory manufacturer-funded** 

### 4 **verification program, it should be to require** 

### 5 **participation in a -- we don't need the** 

### 6 **`mandatory' -- require participation in a** 

### 7 **manufacturer-funded verification program. To** 

### 8 **me, that is a start on getting closer.** 

### 9 **MR. EISNER: All right, now how** 

### 10 **would you expect the rule to be written that** 

### 11 **would cover a verification?** 

### 12 **I mean, as I said earlier, I would** 

### 13 **anticipate the rule would say something like,** 

### 14 **"all manufacturers are required to do either** 

### 15 **A or B."** 

### 16 **MR. DOPPEL: Yes.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: But you're required** 

### 18 **to do one or the other. So, is that troubling** 

### 19 **under the statute as to whether they have the** 

### 20 **authority? Because that would be the** 

### 21 **manufacturer paying for the cost of the** 

### 22 **testing being done?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 341**  **1 MR. DOPPEL: I don't necessarily**  

### 2 **have a problem about the funding issue. I** 

### 3 **think there are some people that have a** 

### 4 **problem with the funding issue.** 

### 5 **So, you know, we had -- Laura read** 

### 6 **sort of where the paragraphs were, but that is** 

### 7 **not -- so, it's like the first time we've** 

### 8 **heard where that has come from, so everybody** 

### 9 **goes, well, you know, we haven't had a chance** 

### 10 **to fully check that out, fully understand** 

### 11 **that. And then to be asked to say we either** 

### 12 **have a problem with what you said or we don't** 

### 13 **have a problem with what you said is kind of** 

### 14 **putting us on the spot, because we haven't had** 

### 15 **-- I mean, basically, we haven't had a chance** 

### 16 **to check that out.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: I think the surprise** 

### 18 **for me was people had said where is the** 

### 19 **authority, but I had never heard anyone, prior** 

### 20 **to today, express the belief that we did not** 

### 21 **have authority to do what we were negotiating** 

### 22 **the last few months. Because up until today we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 342**  **1 were talking about mandatory.**  

### 2 **MR. DOPPEL: Well, everything** 

### 3 **else, I don't think that anybody has ever** 

### 4 **questioned anything else. Verification kept** 

### 5 **getting pushed out because --** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, we've been** 

### 7 **talking about verification for a good six** 

### 8 **meetings now.** 

### 9 **MR. DOPPEL: Well, but it was** 

### 10 **pushed to the end.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, no, it was** 

### 12 **pushed to the end.** 

### 13 **MR. DOPPEL: Because everybody** 

### 14 **knew there is a lot of controversy with it.** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: I didn't know it.** 

### 16 **(Laughter.)** 

### 17 **MR. DOPPEL: I mean, I just don't** 

### 18 **think we need that statement today, because,** 

### 19 **you know, I mean, this morning was probably** 

### 20 **the first time that a lot of people heard that** 

### 21 **expressed.** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: The concern or the -**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 343**  **1 - just what the authority was?**  

### 2 **MR. THARP: The source of** 

### 3 **authority.** 

### 4 **MR. DOPPEL: Right.** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 6 **MR. DOPPEL: Yes. So, again, so,** 

### 7 **you read some things. I mean, we don't even** 

### 8 **have the documents to look at, to understand** 

### 9 **what that is.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: He does, because he** 

### 11 **was reading the next sentence before where I** 

### 12 **stopped at the period.** 

### 13 **MR. THARP: But it's the 2011** 

### 14 **version, which isn't the latest version,** 

### 15 **right?** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: You're talking about** 

### 17 **the two paragraphs?** 

### 18 **MR. DOPPEL: Yes, so if we had** 

### 19 **that language to look at --** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: You want it tonight,** 

### 21 **or you want it put up on the screen right now?** 

### 22 **MR. DOPPEL: I think tonight.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 344**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. DOPPEL: Look at it tonight.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: That's easier.** 

### 4 **MR. DOPPEL: Rather than try to** 

### 5 **put it on the screen.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Because then I can** 

### 7 **copy and paste it instead of typing it.** 

### 8 **MR. DOPPEL: But not just -- but** 

### 9 **like big chunks around it, not just the two** 

### 10 **paragraphs.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, it's all in** 

### 12 **6296, so, I'll just take all of 6296 and put** 

### 13 **it in there.** 

### 14 **MR. DOPPEL: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. THARP: And the reality is,** 

### 16 **there has been several other things where** 

### 17 **we've sort of tabled discussion until the next** 

### 18 **meeting. So, I personally don't have a** 

### 19 **problem continuing on, and just --** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: So, I'm not** 

### 21 **disagreeing with you, Rusty. The problem is** 

### 22 **that ASRAC meets tomorrow, and so we've got to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 345**  **1 figure out what it is we want to say to ASRAC.**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: What time is the** 

### 3 **meeting?** 

### 4 **MS. ARMSTRONG: One o'clock.** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: Are we at the** 

### 6 **beginning or the end?** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, you are** 

### 8 **pretty much the agenda, I mean, there are some** 

### 9 **minor things, but --** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It's the** 

### 12 **beginning.** 

### 13 **MR. STANONIK: Laura, I would** 

### 14 **change your question a little bit, because the** 

### 15 **report -- there is a report, right, and that** 

### 16 **report has many references to discussions,** 

### 17 **work on verification proposals or whatever.** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 19 **MR. STANONIK: I would say the** 

### 20 **question is, do you want to add anything to** 

### 21 **that? I mean, again, the report, you know,** 

### 22 **has statements that the working group thinks**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 346**  **1 that, you know, negotiations should continue**  

### 2 **on verification regulation, whatever it says.** 

### 3 **It notes that there is some** 

### 4 **disagreement on some issues, whether it's** 

### 5 **needed even, and then, you know, the** 

### 6 **conclusions are that it wants to continue** 

### 7 **negotiating the verification provision.** 

### 8 **So, I think the real question is,** 

### 9 **you know, what do you want to add or change to** 

### 10 **that, because it's there already.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: So, when we started** 

### 12 **this morning, Karen initiated this discussion** 

### 13 **with, "I think that we should not be** 

### 14 **continuing to" --** 

### 15 **MR. STANONIK: There should be a** 

### 16 **step in there --** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: -- "do this, in this** 

### 18 **framework."** 

### 19 **MR. STANONIK: Yes.** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: And so we've been** 

### 21 **going from there all day.** 

### 22 **MR. STANONIK: Okay, I just wanted**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 347**  **1 to point out there is information there**  

### 2 **already. The question is how much does the** 

### 3 **working group want to change it, I guess.** 

### 4 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 5 **HTP. But right before she left, she said that** 

### 6 **different comment that was very supportive.** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: She did, yes, she** 

### 8 **did.** 

### 9 **MR. EISNER: Any other discussion?** 

### 10 **Let's go back to the beginning and see whether** 

### 11 **people think this is what we should ask Ashley** 

### 12 **to talk about tomorrow, to represent our** 

### 13 **position right now on the verification.** 

### 14 **MR. STEPHENS: We do have a change** 

### 15 **for the boiler and the water heaters.** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: That's right, I'm** 

### 17 **sorry, we were going to look at that. Let's** 

### 18 **look at boiler first.** 

### 19 **MR. STEPHENS: We changed it, and** 

### 20 **step in if I overlook something.** 

### 21 **Boilers and water heaters prefer** 

### 22 **that any mandatory manufacturer verification**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 348**  **1 testing program share --**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: Hang on a second.** 

### 3 **MR. STEPHENS: -- manufacturer** 

### 4 **verification testing programs share the** 

### 5 **expense between the DOE and the manufacturers,** 

### 6 **period. We support negotiating in good faith** 

### 7 **and continuing the progress we have initiated** 

### 8 **with respect to verification testing, period.** 

### 9 **The group considers it important** 

### 10 **to note the importance of revisiting** 

### 11 **verification requirements after the** 

### 12 **statistical aspects of verification previously** 

### 13 **noted are completed, period.** 

### 14 **Did I leave out anything?** 

### 15 **MR. STANONIK: Well, it's actually** 

### 16 **the study of --** 

### 17 **MR. STEPHENS: The study of, yes.** 

### 18 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 19 **AHRI. Couple things. I think there is -- as** 

### 20 **far as we support negotiating, I think the** 

### 21 **statement was more that we believe we can** 

### 22 **continue to negotiate in good faith and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 349**  **1 continue progress, notwithstanding this**  

### 2 **unanswered question about authority.** 

### 3 **MR. STEPHENS: I knew I messed up** 

### 4 **your words there somehow. Sorry. Up at the** 

### 5 **beginning of the sentence, instead of `we** 

### 6 **support,' `we believe'.** 

### 7 **MR. STANONIK: Yes.** 

### 8 **MR. STEPHENS: Then whatever Frank** 

### 9 **said.** 

### 10 **(Laughter.)** 

### 11 **MR. STANONIK: I think that I said** 

### 12 **we believe that we can continue to negotiate** 

### 13 **in good faith and continue the progress we've** 

### 14 **initiated, notwithstanding the question that** 

### 15 **has been raised regarding legal authority, or** 

### 16 **however you want to couch that.** 

### 17 **Then the last piece, Phil, I don't** 

### 18 **really remember we talked about sharing** 

### 19 **expense. We just kind of --** 

### 20 **MR. KLEISS: Yes, I would like to** 

### 21 **have the first sentence stricken.** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: Completely?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 350**  **1 MR. KLEISS: Yes.**  

### 2 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay to delete the** 

### 4 **strike out? Oh, you're reading? Okay, sorry.** 

### 5 **MR. MOLVIE: Maybe we should leave** 

### 6 **it until tomorrow morning so Karen can see** 

### 7 **what we've done. And Frank Myers will be here** 

### 8 **tomorrow too, so I think it might be a good** 

### 9 **idea to revisit this tomorrow morning, if we** 

### 10 **can do that.** 

### 11 **MR. KLEISS: And if you want to** 

### 12 **add that first sentence in there with the** 

### 13 **strike out, that too.** 

### 14 **MR. STEPHENS: I thought that was** 

### 15 **one of the things that we talked about, was** 

### 16 **the issue of manufacturer --** 

### 17 **MR. KLEISS: I missed that. I** 

### 18 **don't have that on the slide.** 

### 19 **MR. STEPHENS: Okay, sometimes** 

### 20 **it's just the voices in my head.** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: Let's go up to the** 

### 22 **beginning of it and have people look at again**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 351**  **1 slowly and see if this is what we want Ashley**  

### 2 **to bring to the committee tomorrow.** 

### 3 **Do we mean to say altering the** 

### 4 **enforcement statistics? You are not going to** 

### 5 **change statistics. You're going to change the** 

### 6 **way they're gathered or something?** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, there are** 

### 8 **statistical formulas in the regulations and** 

### 9 **those that will -- that we would be --** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: Right, so, should it** 

### 11 **be enforcement statistical --** 

### 12 **MR. THARP: Statistical** 

### 13 **requirements.** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: Is everybody okay** 

### 15 **with these first two paragraphs?** 

### 16 **MR. THARP: Yes.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: Okay, let's go onto** 

### 18 **the --** 

### 19 **MR. SACHS: Again, even in line** 

### 20 **one -- this is Harvey -- it's not the** 

### 21 **statistics. It's the statistical methods, the** 

### 22 **analytical basis, that might even be a more**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 352**  **1 general term. I am just -- statistics didn't**  

### 2 **work for me.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: Everybody agree with** 

### 4 **that?** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: No.** 

### 6 **MR. THARP: Yes.** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: No?** 

### 8 **MR. SACHS: Statistics are the** 

### 9 **output.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: I mean, I get that.** 

### 11 **Well, statistics is also the applicable** 

### 12 **confidence intervals and the methodology. I** 

### 13 **mean, statistics is the mathematical analysis.** 

### 14 **MR. SACHS: I'd rather say the** 

### 15 **mathematical analysis than just statistics,** 

### 16 **but, you know, I don't mean to be a stick in** 

### 17 **the mud about it.** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: I'm not saying --** 

### 19 **MR. SACHS: It's ambiguous.** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: I get that.** 

### 21 **MR. KLEISS: But it is clarified** 

### 22 **in the next paragraph, or rather the second**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 353**  **1 paragraph.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: Something about** 

### 3 **analytical methodology, to me, just sounds too** 

### 4 **vague, as it could be just about anything.** 

### 5 **MR. SACHS: Hey, if the --** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Whereas, there are** 

### 7 **parts of it that are clearly based on** 

### 8 **statistics.** 

### 9 **MR. SACHS: If everybody else is** 

### 10 **happy, I'll keep quiet.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: How about if we say** 

### 12 **what we said in the second paragraph, just** 

### 13 **point about say -- just saying enforcement and** 

### 14 **statistical requirements should be reviewed?** 

### 15 **Would that do it?** 

### 16 **MS. BARHYDT: Does that work,** 

### 17 **Harvey?** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: Yes, it's fine.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: Okay, everybody okay** 

### 20 **with that now? Let's go onto the next screen.** 

### 21 **Okay, everybody okay on the August** 

### 22 **30th report? Verification?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 354**  **1 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill**  

### 2 **Hootman. One other thing on the August 30th** 

### 3 **report, we still have yet to -- in commercial** 

### 4 **HVAC, work on motor definition.** 

### 5 **If we get to that tomorrow or some** 

### 6 **other point, what do we do, as far as getting** 

### 7 **it to ASRAC?** 

### 8 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I think what we --** 

### 9 **we took care of that last time, right, because** 

### 10 **we agreed upon the premise and we told them we** 

### 11 **were going to work out the details, but we did** 

### 12 **need to send them the details back to them.** 

### 13 **In other words, they were agreeing** 

### 14 **that the Department -- they were agreeing to -** 

### 15 **- that is all in the report already.** 

### 16 **MS. HOOTMAN: Right.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: So, provided they** 

### 18 **agreed to that --** 

### 19 **MS. HOOTMAN: Right.** 

### 20 **MR. DOPPEL: Yes, the framework is** 

### 21 **agreed --** 

### 22 **MS. HOOTMAN: Right.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 355**  **1 MR. DOPPEL: The framework was**  

### 2 **there, and we tried to work within that** 

### 3 **framework.** 

### 4 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, my proposal is** 

### 5 **tomorrow morning first thing, that we let** 

### 6 **everyone else either have a break-out session** 

### 7 **or breakfast or sleep in or break, while we --** 

### 8 **the commercial HVAC world and anyone else** 

### 9 **interested in the motor discussion come to the** 

### 10 **table and iron out that, that is the only** 

### 11 **thing, which hopefully, shouldn't take that** 

### 12 **long because I think we saw in the way I read** 

### 13 **Alex's email, the scaling pretty much works.** 

### 14 **Does that work for everyone?** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: Yes, I mean, some of** 

### 16 **the --** 

### 17 **MR. WHITWELL: Ashley, this is Bob** 

### 18 **Whitwell. So, is there a -- you're going to** 

### 19 **have a proposal for us to discuss or we bring** 

### 20 **proposals or what is the thought?** 

### 21 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I think that** 

### 22 **this scaling proposal that we have shown you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 356**  **1 before, I mean, I think Alex is pretty much**  

### 2 **saying that the manufacturers can give you the** 

### 3 **data for the most part.** 

### 4 **We have a small portion of the** 

### 5 **market we need to talk about, but I think what** 

### 6 **I gather from that call and from Alex's** 

### 7 **subsequent emails, they'll give you the data** 

### 8 **you need, and at the full load point.** 

### 9 **So, that basically the scaling** 

### 10 **that we were talking about previously would** 

### 11 **hold true, as long as you have those values.** 

### 12 **MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, but for the** 

### 13 **ones that don't have the test procedures, we** 

### 14 **would still need to write something about** 

### 15 **that.** 

### 16 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, so, Bob had** 

### 17 **sent around something at one point. So, we** 

### 18 **can just talk.** 

### 19 **I mean, I don't have anything else** 

### 20 **to show tomorrow.** 

### 21 **MR. WHITWELL: Okay, all right.** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, let's put it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 357**  **1 that way.**  

### 2 **MR. WHITWELL: Okay.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: Okay, August 30th,** 

### 4 **everybody is okay with? Verification?** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: So, there are a** 

### 6 **whole lot of notes here that we jotted down,** 

### 7 **and we haven't struck through everything that** 

### 8 **we jotted down.** 

### 9 **So, it's really a matter of** 

### 10 **figuring out if we only want that very last** 

### 11 **part, if you want the whole thing, starting at** 

### 12 **the 20 minute break, resume at 2:40 p.m., if** 

### 13 **that -- if you only want the stuff after that** 

### 14 **point.** 

### 15 **MR. DOPPEL: Can you put that up** 

### 16 **higher, that one?** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: Which part?** 

### 18 **MR. DOPPEL: The part about the** 

### 19 **legal. That is it.** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: That's at the very,** 

### 21 **very end.** 

### 22 **MR. DOPPEL: Yes, but there was**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 358**  **1 something else.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 3 **MR. DOPPEL: There was something** 

### 4 **more in there. I don't know if we're going up** 

### 5 **or down.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so, going down** 

### 7 **just a little bit, scroll down a little bit** 

### 8 **more, take out the question, because that was** 

### 9 **a discussion point.** 

### 10 **MR. DOPPEL: Right, okay, that's** 

### 11 **good, and then the HVAC part of that, we** 

### 12 **should probably look at.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: So, do you all want** 

### 14 **to get rid of the two things that are -- the** 

### 15 **working group sees three, get rid of that,** 

### 16 **this group has made solid progress.** 

### 17 **MR. DOPPEL: Yes.** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: You all want to get** 

### 19 **rid of that?** 

### 20 **MR. DOPPEL: Yes.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: And then what about** 

### 22 **that? That is kind of where we started this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 359**  **1 morning, was the let ASRAC decide what to do.**  

### 2 **I mean, ASRAC gets to decide what to do** 

### 3 **anyway, but it was the --** 

### 4 **MR. DOPPEL: But we were --** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: -- non** 

### 6 **recommendation approach.** 

### 7 **MR. DOPPEL: Yes, but I think we** 

### 8 **migrated away from that.** 

### 9 **PARTICIPANT: Yes.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: So, we can delete** 

### 11 **that?** 

### 12 **MR. AMRANE: Hold on a minute.** 

### 13 **The issue of all covered products, I think is** 

### 14 **a valid issue.** 

### 15 **MR. DOPPEL: Yes.** 

### 16 **MR. AMRANE: So, I think ASRAC** 

### 17 **needs to discuss that, you know, whether to at** 

### 18 **the same time, address the --** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: So?** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: Take out the first** 

### 21 **sentence and --** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: Actually, what about**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 360**  **1 that original language that is struck through**  

### 2 **right now? Does that --** 

### 3 **MR. SACHS: I would prefer that** 

### 4 **line three of paragraph two say, "Each covered** 

### 5 **product class," rather than all covered** 

### 6 **products, because I am not sure -- I'm worried** 

### 7 **about the implications of a single** 

### 8 **verification program across so many classes.** 

### 9 **MR. THARP: Is this really right,** 

### 10 **though? I mean, we're not -- I don't think we** 

### 11 **presently view this as an either/or. I think** 

### 12 **don't most people want to continue this** 

### 13 **working group, regardless of there being maybe** 

### 14 **another working group to convene for** 

### 15 **residential products or other commercial** 

### 16 **equipment that is not covered here?** 

### 17 **MR. STANONIK: Yes, what is the --** 

### 18 **have the product list, what about after the** 

### 19 **period, and it simply said, "We're working on** 

### 20 **this," which is to --** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: Continue.** 

### 22 **MR. STANONIK: -- continue or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 361**  **1 complete the negotiations for commercial**  

### 2 **equipment, which is commercial equipment.** 

### 3 **MR. SACHS: Quickly.** 

### 4 **MR. STANONIK: You could say for** 

### 5 **the equipment within its scope, whatever** 

### 6 **works.** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: So, we're asking them** 

### 8 **to decide whether they have to -- to convene** 

### 9 **a working group for the formation of the** 

### 10 **verification program for each covered product** 

### 11 **class, but let us continue to go, with respect** 

### 12 **to verification for these products?** 

### 13 **This morning, we were talking** 

### 14 **about basically a general concept on how to** 

### 15 **set up a verification program. Now, we're** 

### 16 **saying we might want to start another** 

### 17 **committee in addition to the one we recommend** 

### 18 **you continue to let us negotiate on.** 

### 19 **MR. SACHS: I'm hearing the** 

### 20 **earlier suggestion that there isn't anybody** 

### 21 **who really wants to stop, so, that line one** 

### 22 **and line two, pushing the decision to ASRAC,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 362**  **1 doesn't -- doesn't work, and I'd like to think**  

### 2 **about deleting that sentence and saying this** 

### 3 **working group wishes to complete negotiations** 

### 4 **for the equipment types within the working** 

### 5 **group scope, and that covers the each versus** 

### 6 **all product classes too, I think.** 

### 7 **MR. AMRANE: No, no, no. This is** 

### 8 **Karim with AHRI.** 

### 9 **I think the -- it's important, the** 

### 10 **point made this morning, is that ASRAC, with** 

### 11 **other products, for example, other products** 

### 12 **and decide whether that each perform a working** 

### 13 **group to address verification programs.** 

### 14 **MR. SACHS: Okay, so, it's the --** 

### 15 **so, it's not a -- as I read it now, it's a** 

### 16 **choice that doesn't explicitly talk about that** 

### 17 **expansion, read to me like a choice between** 

### 18 **two approaches for these commercial products.** 

### 19 **MS. HOOTMAN: That is not what we** 

### 20 **--** 

### 21 **MR. SACHS: Right, that is not we** 

### 22 **meant.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 363**  **1 MS. HOOTMAN: That is why I would**  

### 2 **say each covered product class.** 

### 3 **MR. AMRANE: Maybe it's product** 

### 4 **class, each covered product.** 

### 5 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So, why don't you** 

### 6 **just say for covered products not subject to** 

### 7 **the negotiations?** 

### 8 **MR. AMRANE: Right.** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Because that is** 

### 10 **really what you're talking about.** 

### 11 **MR. AMRANE: Right, yes.** 

### 12 **MR. SACHS: Good. I'm sorry, I'd** 

### 13 **forgotten that, Karim.** 

### 14 **MR. THARP: This is an awfully** 

### 15 **neutral statement. Would we want to say** 

### 16 **something stronger, like working group** 

### 17 **encourages ASRAC to convene a working group** 

### 18 **regarding the formation? I mean, rather than** 

### 19 **just suggesting that they think about it.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: Is everybody with** 

### 21 **this now? They should convene a working group** 

### 22 **and they should let us keep going?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 364**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: What was that?**  

### 2 **MR. STANONIK: I would say that** 

### 3 **you convene a working group to address the** 

### 4 **formation, rather than --** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: I'm going to** 

### 6 **abstain from this one. I'm indifferent to** 

### 7 **this topic.** 

### 8 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 9 **MR. STEPHENS: I make the boilers** 

### 10 **and water heaters, not televisions.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: Okay, this is the** 

### 12 **general statement on verification. Is** 

### 13 **everybody okay with it?** 

### 14 **All right, we have one abstention** 

### 15 **on this one. It's been noted. Anybody else?** 

### 16 **Okay?** 

### 17 **MR. HUDNALL: One more, if I may.** 

### 18 **Should it say working group or groups? Again,** 

### 19 **refrigerators, televisions, lighting, may be** 

### 20 **different groups. Maybe it's too deep.** 

### 21 **MR. STANONIK: Well, I thought the** 

### 22 **intent was once you had the working group, it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 365**  **1 could determine its own sub-groups, as this**  

### 2 **group does.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, I mean, the** 

### 4 **scope could potentially be significantly** 

### 5 **broader.** 

### 6 **So, you know, you might want to** 

### 7 **have a -- just like we have these commercial** 

### 8 **products in a group, maybe they would have a** 

### 9 **residential product in a group.** 

### 10 **MR. STANONIK: Sure.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: Which would have its** 

### 12 **own billion little break-out groups too.** 

### 13 **MR. STANONIK: They're going to do** 

### 14 **what they want, right?** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: Okay, then we get** 

### 17 **down to the specific categories. CRE first,** 

### 18 **everybody happy with that?** 

### 19 **MR. STANONIK: I've got a general** 

### 20 **comment here.** 

### 21 **I mean, all of this -- all of** 

### 22 **these positions, let's say, were developed**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 366**  **1 based on the legal question, or the debate**  

### 2 **that came from the legal questions. Does this** 

### 3 **really need to presented to ASRAC tomorrow?** 

### 4 **MR. HUDNALL: Especially based on** 

### 5 **the previous statement that this group wants** 

### 6 **to continue working on verification, the** 

### 7 **second sentence in that, "This working group** 

### 8 **wishes to complete negotiations." I'd go just** 

### 9 **like this, just an observation.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: Anybody disagree?** 

### 11 **Anybody want to keep that language in, on the** 

### 12 **three -- those three sub-groups? Might be** 

### 13 **good for Ashley to have it, so she can talk** 

### 14 **about where she is on each of those things.** 

### 15 **MR. AMRANE: Right.** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: But not have to** 

### 17 **necessarily present it.** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: Help me understand.** 

### 19 **These are not recommendations, but just a** 

### 20 **status update?** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: Well, we are** 

### 22 **recommending they let us continue. We are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 367**  **1 recommending that they set up a new committee,**  

### 2 **and we are recommending -- the earlier stuff** 

### 3 **is recommendations and some changes on the** 

### 4 **package we already submitted.** 

### 5 **MR. SACHS: Right.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: I would think that** 

### 7 **if I was on ASRAC and I had not heard anything** 

### 8 **that went on here, and I read that earlier** 

### 9 **statement that this group thinks that they** 

### 10 **should convene some more working groups, but** 

### 11 **let us finish what we were doing, without some** 

### 12 **additional context about where things stand,** 

### 13 **I might be more inclined to just say, "Well,** 

### 14 **why don't we just stick everything together?"** 

### 15 **It seems to me like it can only** 

### 16 **help the cause to continue this group, to say** 

### 17 **where things are, because otherwise, it seems** 

### 18 **like on one hand, we're saying you should do** 

### 19 **this really broad group, but don't touch our** 

### 20 **stuff, without any context of, we're really** 

### 21 **close, we really think we can finish this in** 

### 22 **a short time frame. I mean, I really think**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 368**  **1 that that context could be beneficial.**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: Comments?** 

### 3 **MR. DOPPEL: Well, can we look at** 

### 4 **that language up above? I mean, that thought** 

### 5 **probably should be out there.** 

### 6 **Maybe we should say something,** 

### 7 **rather than `form working groups', that this** 

### 8 **group identified the fact that there are many** 

### 9 **other programs out there, for which there are** 

### 10 **not verification programs, and that those** 

### 11 **should be addressed.** 

### 12 **I mean, that is kind of the** 

### 13 **context. This -- I think by saying** 

### 14 **`establishing working groups', up front, if we** 

### 15 **said that this group noted that there are many** 

### 16 **other product categories or program categories** 

### 17 **that are not currently covered by verification** 

### 18 **programs, and that we feel that this situation** 

### 19 **should be addressed and then maybe put in** 

### 20 **after that, that person's --** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: I would change that** 

### 22 **a little bit. This group noted that there are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 369**  **1 many other product categories, not currently**  

### 2 **subject to verification testing.** 

### 3 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 4 **HTP. It's late, it's wearing on me. I may be** 

### 5 **losing focus here, and please correct me if** 

### 6 **I'm wrong, but how do we, in the heating** 

### 7 **industry, know that the radios need more** 

### 8 **regulation and verification on an annual** 

### 9 **basis?** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, perhaps you** 

### 11 **make residential products and think that those** 

### 12 **should be addressed.** 

### 13 **MR. AMRANE: Yes, and again, maybe** 

### 14 **the working group -- the conclusion is going** 

### 15 **to be that we don't need one.** 

### 16 **MR. STEPHENS: Then I am not --** 

### 17 **I'm going to change my abstention to a** 

### 18 **negative vote.** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 20 **MS. DANE: I would probably vote** 

### 21 **negative too, only because I don't think -- I** 

### 22 **mean, when that was originally put up there,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 370**  **1 the argument was, why do we have to do**  

### 2 **something nobody else wants to do, and that is** 

### 3 **where that conversation first came from, is we** 

### 4 **should tell them everybody has got to do it,** 

### 5 **and it should roll out at the first date.** 

### 6 **So, if now, we're just stating the** 

### 7 **obvious to them, I don't think it's necessary** 

### 8 **and I would vote also.** 

### 9 **MR. DOPPEL: You really didn't** 

### 10 **change that, other than to establish a** 

### 11 **sentence there that says, we noted that there** 

### 12 **are other programs out there.** 

### 13 **MS. DANE: But then when we came** 

### 14 **down to the bottom, it's like, well, why do we** 

### 15 **need to have all this, and we went back,** 

### 16 **because we were discussing whether or not** 

### 17 **people believed the DOE had the funding.** 

### 18 **So, our statement specifically** 

### 19 **said that CRE supports DOE required** 

### 20 **manufacturer-funded verification programs.** 

### 21 **MR. DOPPEL: So, you're talking** 

### 22 **about --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 371**  **1 MS. DANE: I am saying that they**  

### 2 **all --** 

### 3 **MR. DOPPEL: -- below the line.** 

### 4 **Below the line.** 

### 5 **MS. DANE: Well, the line that has** 

### 6 **been added, but what I'm saying is, is that** 

### 7 **all of that was tied to a very large** 

### 8 **discussion over, we don't want to do something** 

### 9 **nobody else has to do and we don't want to pay** 

### 10 **for it.** 

### 11 **So, when we made our CRE** 

### 12 **statement, it was based on those two things,** 

### 13 **saying that we supported -- one, we supported** 

### 14 **it, and you know, we're comfortable with going** 

### 15 **ahead with ours, without worrying about what** 

### 16 **the rest of the world does, because CRE is** 

### 17 **going to stand up and say, you know, we're** 

### 18 **behind this and we want to be an active part** 

### 19 **of it.** 

### 20 **So, that statement means -- you** 

### 21 **know, if you're going to take one out, I would** 

### 22 **say -- they're all tied together.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 372**  **1 MR. EISNER: There was a third**  

### 2 **point that I think you mentioned, which was** 

### 3 **they should all be required to start at the** 

### 4 **same time.** 

### 5 **MS. DANE: Right, they should be -** 

### 6 **- yes, because the point was brought up, is** 

### 7 **certification dates rolled in, individually.** 

### 8 **Why wouldn't verification dates roll in all** 

### 9 **differently?** 

### 10 **So, let's say, I would have** 

### 11 **abstained, but the more I think about it, I** 

### 12 **don't -- I think that is --** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: Reactions to that?** 

### 14 **MS. DANE: We don't really need to** 

### 15 **say anything because they already know that.** 

### 16 **So, unless we're telling them we need it at** 

### 17 **the same time, and we don't want to pay for** 

### 18 **it, that is the only reason I would see that** 

### 19 **statement being there.** 

### 20 **MR. KLEISS: Do the negatives** 

### 21 **recommend striking the whole paragraph or** 

### 22 **could you revise the paragraph?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 373**  **1 MR. STEPHENS: I'd recommend**  

### 2 **striking the entire paragraph.** 

### 3 **MS. DANE: I think so, too.** 

### 4 **MR. AMRANE: What do you object to** 

### 5 **here? I mean, I don't understand exactly,** 

### 6 **the issue.** 

### 7 **MR. STEPHENS: It's too generic.** 

### 8 **We're not just mentioning the auxiliary -- the** 

### 9 **ancillary products that we produce. We're** 

### 10 **saying TVs, radios, blenders, whatever --** 

### 11 **PARTICIPANT: Shower heads.** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: Let me see if this** 

### 13 **makes it meaningful again, in a way that it** 

### 14 **seems to have lost its meaning.** 

### 15 **MR. KLEISS: How about leaving the** 

### 16 **last two sentences, striking everything else?** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: I think that is in** 

### 18 **the current report we sent up to them.** 

### 19 **MR. STEPHENS: Right, it's not** 

### 20 **adding anything.** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: Both sentences, I** 

### 22 **think are in the report.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 374**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: Does that make it**  

### 2 **meaningful, that they need to do this for** 

### 3 **other products, so that it all kicks in at the** 

### 4 **same time?** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: There again --** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: No?** 

### 7 **MR. STEPHENS: -- I don't feel** 

### 8 **like we have --** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: You didn't care** 

### 10 **about that?** 

### 11 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, we could --** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: Because certainly --** 

### 13 **MR. STEPHENS: We don't know --** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: -- there were people** 

### 15 **who expressed concern about that.** 

### 16 **MR. STEPHENS: Right, but I don't** 

### 17 **think there is anybody in here that** 

### 18 **manufactures --** 

### 19 **MS. DANE: Light bulbs.** 

### 20 **MR. STEPHENS: -- 400 different** 

### 21 **product classes.** 

### 22 **MS. DANE: VCRs.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 375**  **1 MR. HURST: Is the desire for an**  

### 2 **equitable --** 

### 3 **MR. AMRANE: Yes.** 

### 4 **MR. HURST: -- program across --** 

### 5 **MR. AMRANE: Covered products.** 

### 6 **MR. HURST: -- all covered** 

### 7 **products? Whatever equitable is, I am not** 

### 8 **trying to define that here.** 

### 9 **MS. DANE: They would still have** 

### 10 **to have groups go first, and I believe that my** 

### 11 **understanding of what is going on here is that** 

### 12 **we are the lucky chosen few.** 

### 13 **MR. HURST: I didn't ask about the** 

### 14 **timing. I said is the desire to have** 

### 15 **equitable programs across all product classes?** 

### 16 **MR. STEPHENS: I think that is way** 

### 17 **outside the scope of this working group.** 

### 18 **MR. AMRANE: That's for ASRAC to** 

### 19 **decide, not for us.** 

### 20 **MS. DANE: And as far as** 

### 21 **equitable, I think that Harvey brought up a** 

### 22 **very valid point, of what the word `equitable'**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 376**  **1 means, and some of the application of the word**  

### 2 **in this group.** 

### 3 **I get the impression that unless** 

### 4 **an AHRI clone for every single thing comes** 

### 5 **out, that there won't be support for anything** 

### 6 **different.** 

### 7 **So, I would have to say that that** 

### 8 **-- that is meaningless because it's already in** 

### 9 **the report, that we wish to continue on. So,** 

### 10 **why state the obvious again?** 

### 11 **MR. KLEISS: Should we turn this** 

### 12 **upside down and take a vote for who would** 

### 13 **agree to striking the entire paragraph?** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: Sense of where** 

### 15 **everybody is?** 

### 16 **MR. KLEISS: I don't think it** 

### 17 **distracts from this to strike the paragraph,** 

### 18 **so, I would --** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: So, what do we give** 

### 20 **them? Just the status of each of the three** 

### 21 **sub-groups?** 

### 22 **MS. DANE: Yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 377**  **1 MR. EISNER: Frank?**  

### 2 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik.** 

### 3 **I've really got thrown here. I mean, we had -** 

### 4 **- have had huge discussions about what** 

### 5 **encompasses verification, for any DOE covered** 

### 6 **product, certainly certification requirement,** 

### 7 **there will be.** 

### 8 **Clearly, enforcement regulations.** 

### 9 **I don't care what you make, all right, there** 

### 10 **is this vast, at the moment, empty space** 

### 11 **about, okay, you certified your -- either** 

### 12 **prototypes or your early production or** 

### 13 **representative samples or whatever, all right,** 

### 14 **and potentially nothing ever gets looked at** 

### 15 **again, until DOE comes knocking on your door** 

### 16 **and says, "Oh, I think we want to do some** 

### 17 **enforcement testing," or assessment testing.** 

### 18 **So, I don't care what the product** 

### 19 **is. There is a -- if there is a need to** 

### 20 **verify, get information for commercial** 

### 21 **products, then there is a need for every DOE** 

### 22 **covered product, because there is -- DOE has**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 378**  **1 determined, there is a need for efficiency**  

### 2 **regulations, which suggest there is a** 

### 3 **variability in efficiency.** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: So, I think what** 

### 5 **Phillip is saying is that while DOE might** 

### 6 **care, why should he care.** 

### 7 **MR. STEPHENS: It's outside the** 

### 8 **scope of this group.** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: This group is** 

### 10 **supposed to talk about commercial --** 

### 11 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, and with** 

### 12 **expect a valid discussion on the --** 

### 13 **MR. STANONIK: And the group** 

### 14 **collectively stated, okay, if we have to** 

### 15 **develop -- we're negotiating verification** 

### 16 **programs for commercial equipment, and we** 

### 17 **recognize that ASRAC has a broader scope.** 

### 18 **We're simply saying hey, ASRAC, we** 

### 19 **think you ought to set up another working** 

### 20 **group to look at those other covered products.** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: How about if you** 

### 22 **instead said the thing -- instead of saying we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 379**  **1 recommend or anything like that, we think you**  

### 2 **should consider or recommend that you consider** 

### 3 **--** 

### 4 **MR. AMRANE: That's fine.** 

### 5 **MR. STANONIK: It says encourage.** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: -- the need for --** 

### 7 **well, but instead of saying `encourage', like** 

### 8 **we know better, I understand, the concern with** 

### 9 **other products.** 

### 10 **Why not say we recommend** 

### 11 **consideration of the need for this for other** 

### 12 **products? Does that work better or do you** 

### 13 **still have objections to that?** 

### 14 **MR. STEPHENS: I think it's just** 

### 15 **outside the scope of what we're doing.** 

### 16 **MR. KOJAK: Yes, I don't understand** 

### 17 **why we would say that anyway.** 

### 18 **MR. STEPHENS: We've spun our** 

### 19 **wheels for a day because of this.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: We could say we think** 

### 21 **what we're doing is so good, it should be** 

### 22 **applied to everybody.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 380**  **1 MR. KOJAK: Yes, but these types**  

### 2 **of products have inductive motors, they have,** 

### 3 **you know, charging, they have a lot of** 

### 4 **manufacturing variability.** 

### 5 **You're talking about a set-top** 

### 6 **box, that is solid state electronics. There** 

### 7 **is really not a lot of variability between the** 

### 8 **manufacturing process, how much energy it's** 

### 9 **going to consume or not, like in these type of** 

### 10 **complicated products, where one tiny, you** 

### 11 **know, variability can change the amount of** 

### 12 **energy it consumes.** 

### 13 **So, to try to tell shower head** 

### 14 **manufacturers they have to go through this** 

### 15 **same thing, it doesn't even make sense.** 

### 16 **MR. AMRANE: We're not saying** 

### 17 **that.** 

### 18 **MR. KOJAK: Well, that is part of** 

### 19 **the --** 

### 20 **MR. AMRANE: That is not what** 

### 21 **we're saying.** 

### 22 **MR. KOJAK: That is part of it.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 381**  **1 MR. AMRANE: We're saying that is**  

### 2 **for ASRAC to assess, and that is for ASRAC to** 

### 3 **decide and eventually, people -- working** 

### 4 **groups, it's going to be for those working** 

### 5 **groups to decide whether they need it or not.** 

### 6 **MR. KOJAK: Well, why waste the** 

### 7 **time?** 

### 8 **MR. AMRANE: Who is wasting the** 

### 9 **time?** 

### 10 **MR. KOJAK: To develop all these** 

### 11 **groups, to determine that.** 

### 12 **MR. BALLO: How about this?** 

### 13 **MR. KOJAK: I don't understand** 

### 14 **that.** 

### 15 **MR. BALLO: The members who** 

### 16 **manufacture equipment in other covered product** 

### 17 **classes believe that ASRAC -- should recommend** 

### 18 **that ASRAC convene working groups to address** 

### 19 **verification in those product classes.** 

### 20 **MR. BAUMAN: You mean you and** 

### 21 **Harvey don't agree? You're the one who is the** 

### 22 **--**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 382**  **1 MR. BALLO: Right.**  

### 2 **MR. BAUMAN: I would think you** 

### 3 **want this also then.** 

### 4 **MR. BALLO: Well, we do, but to** 

### 5 **come up language the is agreeable to everybody** 

### 6 **in the room, I think it has to be more limited** 

### 7 **than the entire working group believes that** 

### 8 **negotiations are appropriate for other product** 

### 9 **classes.** 

### 10 **MR. STEPHENS: If that's the way** 

### 11 **you want to go, I fully support you doing** 

### 12 **that. Outside of this group, I think it's** 

### 13 **just outside the scope of this group. We're** 

### 14 **heating equipment.** 

### 15 **We're not radios and televisions** 

### 16 **and --** 

### 17 **MR. BALLO: But that isn't making** 

### 18 **a representation about what you think. That** 

### 19 **is making a representation about what other** 

### 20 **members of the working group think.** 

### 21 **MR. STANONIK: And the working** 

### 22 **group is not saying we know what to do or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 383**  **1 anything.**  

### 2 **MR. BALLO: Right.** 

### 3 **MR. STANONIK: Or you should do** 

### 4 **this. We're simply saying, there is a void** 

### 5 **there, and that ASRAC does have the ability to** 

### 6 **set up a working group to address that void,** 

### 7 **and I'm going to say something I know would** 

### 8 **never pass, okay.** 

### 9 **But my position would be that the** 

### 10 **DOE regulations for commercial verification do** 

### 11 **not get published until there are verification** 

### 12 **requirements for all covered products.** 

### 13 **MS. DANE: That's what I vote for** 

### 14 **on that point.** 

### 15 **MS. HOOTMAN: I'm sorry.** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: Anybody have other** 

### 17 **language they would suggest?** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: So, there are some** 

### 19 **people in the room who very strongly think we** 

### 20 **need to say something, is that correct,** 

### 21 **because there is also clearly, at least one** 

### 22 **person who very strongly thinks we should not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 384**  **1 say anything on it.**  

### 2 **So, I mean, does anyone really** 

### 3 **care about whether we say it or not?** 

### 4 **MR. BAUMAN: I think the reason** 

### 5 **that this was -- probably partly me, brought** 

### 6 **into some of the -- in the first place, was** 

### 7 **that from our colleagues out there** 

### 8 **particularly, a sense of, going back to the** 

### 9 **term playing field, level playing field or a** 

### 10 **basic sense of -- basic sense that if -- why** 

### 11 **would we be regulated -- why would we agree to** 

### 12 **be regulated, if we're -- not regulated.** 

### 13 **Why would we agree to pay for a** 

### 14 **verification program for the Department of** 

### 15 **Energy, when other products don't have to?** 

### 16 **I think that is where this** 

### 17 **question initially goes back to, and the idea** 

### 18 **-- I think my view on putting or not putting** 

### 19 **something in here, back to ASRAC, is this** 

### 20 **again, more of a chance of potentially** 

### 21 **reducing some of the negative feedback that** 

### 22 **may come after, and if we said that should be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 385**  **1 considered, the people here, other**  

### 2 **manufacturers, including those not in this** 

### 3 **room, aren't going to feel quite so like** 

### 4 **they're -- the rug is being pulled out from** 

### 5 **under them, or however you want to do that,** 

### 6 **that we're agreeing to something that other** 

### 7 **people aren't having agreed to.** 

### 8 **Maybe, I don't know if there is** 

### 9 **language too, that -- you know, that we just** 

### 10 **want to talk about other commercial products?** 

### 11 **I don't know if there is a logical separation,** 

### 12 **and I'm not that familiar with how the** 

### 13 **categories go for that, there might be some** 

### 14 **where we're not talking about light bulbs and** 

### 15 **things, if that is beyond what we should even** 

### 16 **be -- in our minds.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: Are you okay with it** 

### 18 **being framed in that way, because that brings** 

### 19 **it back to the subject matter of our working** 

### 20 **group.** 

### 21 **MR. KOJAK: Well, why not put in** 

### 22 **there, to recommend groups of manufacturing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 386**  **1 variabilities `x' percent or greater, because**  

### 2 **if something is manufactured exactly the same,** 

### 3 **because it's solid state, over and over and** 

### 4 **over again --** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: How about something** 

### 6 **similar --** 

### 7 **MR. KOJAK: -- why do you have a** 

### 8 **verification program to test a cell phone or** 

### 9 **a VRC/DVD player?** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: Michael, what about** 

### 11 **something simpler, like ASRAC should review** 

### 12 **whether there are other products that would be** 

### 13 **-- for which it would be appropriate to have** 

### 14 **verification testing, so that people would not** 

### 15 **feel like this industry was being picked on,** 

### 16 **some other words?** 

### 17 **Would that take care of your** 

### 18 **concern? You don't say all products, you just** 

### 19 **simply say, should examine whether there are** 

### 20 **other products for which such testing would be** 

### 21 **warranted, or such --** 

### 22 **MR. KOJAK: Well, I just feel like**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 387**  **1 -- the same thing like Phillip, they should be**  

### 2 **able to come to that own conclusion** 

### 3 **themselves. I don't see why we should be** 

### 4 **making that recommendation to them, to do** 

### 5 **that.** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: But we're -- the** 

### 7 **point that was just made is, there will be** 

### 8 **people in this industry who will be concerned** 

### 9 **that these -- these requirements are being** 

### 10 **imposed on them.** 

### 11 **They think they're a good idea,** 

### 12 **but they think they should be imposed on** 

### 13 **everybody, if they're going to be imposed on** 

### 14 **them.** 

### 15 **MR. KOJAK: But what about the** 

### 16 **people that you're imposing that on, the other** 

### 17 **ones that were recommending they're imposed on** 

### 18 **them? They're going to say the same thing.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: But it --** 

### 20 **MR. KOJAK: Why are we imposing** 

### 21 **that on to them?** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: Because we will --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 388**  **1 MR. KOJAK: You're recommending us**  

### 2 **to.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: We're saying it** 

### 4 **should be imposed on them, if it's as good an** 

### 5 **idea as it is for this segment of the** 

### 6 **industry.** 

### 7 **In other words, it helps you get** 

### 8 **the successful adoption of the proposed rule** 

### 9 **you're making.** 

### 10 **MR. KOJAK: Like walk-in coolers?** 

### 11 **MR. STEPHENS: Basically, what** 

### 12 **we're saying is, misery loves company.** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: No, goodness, the** 

### 14 **negative attitude.** 

### 15 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 16 **MR. STANONIK: The recommendation,** 

### 17 **liken to an exactly what Phillip says, we** 

### 18 **don't have the authority to do, because the** 

### 19 **recommendation in no way, says what the** 

### 20 **program will require or won't require, for** 

### 21 **that matter.** 

### 22 **It simply is saying, we think that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 389**  **1 there needs to be another working group, and**  

### 2 **if you'll remember early in the day today,** 

### 3 **again, DOE is very clear at some point, they** 

### 4 **intended to do verification regulation.** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, we intended to** 

### 6 **raise the issue in a rulemaking.** 

### 7 **MR. STANONIK: In a rulemaking,** 

### 8 **and that would be for all products, okay.** 

### 9 **So, I would purport that if that** 

### 10 **is still the position, those other covered** 

### 11 **products would be in a better position if they** 

### 12 **had a working group to start negotiating what** 

### 13 **that might be, as opposed to waiting for DOE** 

### 14 **to drop the other shoe.** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: Right, I understand** 

### 16 **the argument about the success of how it would** 

### 17 **help us get this final rule adopted, final** 

### 18 **rule on this subject adopted.** 

### 19 **What the other three are saying** 

### 20 **over here is, why are we -- committee --** 

### 21 **looking at HVAC, boilers and CRE, in a** 

### 22 **position to make a recommendation that I'm**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 390**  **1 above the rest of the industry?**  

### 2 **It's not why we were created, to** 

### 3 **make recommendations about other parts of the** 

### 4 **industry.** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: It's outside of our** 

### 6 **scope.** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: It's outside the** 

### 8 **scope, but I thought a good point was made, it** 

### 9 **could help get this rule through, if people** 

### 10 **understood this industry is not being picked** 

### 11 **on, so to speak.** 

### 12 **MR. KOJAK: What about if we --** 

### 13 **the scope is limited to other industries that** 

### 14 **will eventually be allowed to certify by AEDM?** 

### 15 **MR. STEPHENS: Neil, when you** 

### 16 **phrase it that way, then I will go through --** 

### 17 **from the negative up to abstaining.** 

### 18 **MS. DANE: I'll go back to** 

### 19 **abstaining.** 

### 20 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: Mike has thrown out** 

### 22 **another idea here.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 391**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. FERRIOL: Neil, could you** 

### 3 **restate what you had said and Phillip agreed** 

### 4 **to the same thing?** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: I was saying that** 

### 6 **there was -- that Frank's position, that we** 

### 7 **should be telling them that other industries** 

### 8 **should be subject to this, they have a** 

### 9 **legitimate point, that that is not what we're** 

### 10 **here for.** 

### 11 **That is not what we were asked to** 

### 12 **do, so, why are we making this recommendation?** 

### 13 **But a good point was made on the** 

### 14 **other side, that this could help get this rule** 

### 15 **successfully through. We wouldn't -- DOE** 

### 16 **would not be getting -- this group would not** 

### 17 **be seeing comments coming in, saying, why us?** 

### 18 **Why are we being picked on? Why does this** 

### 19 **have to happen to us?** 

### 20 **No, the group said that it might** 

### 21 **possibly be necessary for others too.** 

### 22 **MR. FERRIOL: So, was there**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 392**  **1 suggested language or going back to --**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: Well, Laura was --** 

### 3 **MR. STEPHENS: Well, I think that** 

### 4 **is what Laura is putting through.** 

### 5 **MR. FERRIOL: Okay. Do we care** 

### 6 **how they address it? I mean, we're saying** 

### 7 **form a working group, but --** 

### 8 **MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, we care that** 

### 9 **they go through a negotiated rulemaking.** 

### 10 **MR. FERRIOL: All right.** 

### 11 **MS. HOOTMAN: Versus notice in** 

### 12 **comment.** 

### 13 **MR. FERRIOL: Okay.** 

### 14 **MS. HOOTMAN: We're saying that** 

### 15 **this process works a whole lot better. The** 

### 16 **negotiated rulemaking and the working group** 

### 17 **process works a whole lot better than notice** 

### 18 **and comment.** 

### 19 **MR. AMRANE: Right.** 

### 20 **MR. SACHS: Although it's** 

### 21 **sometimes hard to feel that way.** 

### 22 **MS. HOOTMAN: I realize that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 393**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: Phillip, does that**  

### 2 **one --** 

### 3 **MR. KLEISS: At this point, we** 

### 4 **don't know if this is true.** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: Which part of this?** 

### 6 **MR. KLEISS: We're hopeful.** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: It says `may'.** 

### 8 **MR. STEPHENS: I'm believe it's** 

### 9 **the scope.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: Okay, why don't we go** 

### 11 **to the -- do we want to have any kind of** 

### 12 **report on the separate sub-groups that were** 

### 13 **established?** 

### 14 **MR. SACHS: I thought that was** 

### 15 **really useful. I really think that is part of** 

### 16 **the messaging that this is a heterogenous** 

### 17 **group of products, and industries with** 

### 18 **different interests, that we have been trying** 

### 19 **to resolve, group by group, I just don't see** 

### 20 **us as being one size fits all.** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: Others?** 

### 22 **MR. KOJAK: I agree because if**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 394**  **1 they want to start an additional working**  

### 2 **group, they'll understand, since we broke up** 

### 3 **in the smaller ones, more by product type,** 

### 4 **that that will happen again, and maybe even,** 

### 5 **you know, sub again, smaller after that.** 

### 6 **So, I think it should be showing** 

### 7 **that we did break up into smaller sub-groups** 

### 8 **from this working group because that -- if** 

### 9 **they continue this process in the future, with** 

### 10 **-- you know, our other recommendation to have** 

### 11 **this done, you know, for other product** 

### 12 **categories, they should be expecting those** 

### 13 **same type of things, where it breaks down into** 

### 14 **smaller sub-groups.** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: Anybody opposed now,** 

### 16 **to putting in the three sub-group status?** 

### 17 **MR. DOPPEL: Can we look at the** 

### 18 **HVAC one more time? Then do we really need to** 

### 19 **-- I'm still concerned about keeping that** 

### 20 **legal authority one in there.** 

### 21 **MR. SACHS: I am not sure what it** 

### 22 **adds either.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 395**  **1 MR. EISNER: Anybody object to**  

### 2 **taking it out now?** 

### 3 **MR. KOJAK: That was quick.** 

### 4 **MR. AMRANE: One question.** 

### 5 **MR. STANONIK: So, would these --** 

### 6 **this additional text, would that be added --** 

### 7 **would that be added to the key points that are** 

### 8 **currently listed on page four in the report?** 

### 9 **MS. HOOTMAN: This whole** 

### 10 **additional text? Is that what you're saying?** 

### 11 **MR. STANONIK: Each of these. I** 

### 12 **mean, these points, on the key points, page** 

### 13 **four of the report, it talks about the** 

### 14 **commercial refrigeration equipment activities** 

### 15 **on verification, it talks about boiler and** 

### 16 **water heating equipment. It talks about HVAC** 

### 17 **and furnaces.** 

### 18 **It gives a slice synopsis. So,** 

### 19 **this is to be added to those, at the end of** 

### 20 **each of them?** 

### 21 **MR. DOPPEL: I think what we said** 

### 22 **was that that first part would be, you know,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 396**  **1 to amend the report, would be added to the**  

### 2 **report, but the rest of this, my understanding** 

### 3 **was, it would give Ashley talking points.** 

### 4 **MR. STANONIK: No, the question --** 

### 5 **I'm sorry, for the question I thought Neil** 

### 6 **raised is, does this get added to the report?** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: No, I don't -- if I** 

### 8 **said that, I may have been misunderstood or** 

### 9 **mis-stated it.** 

### 10 **MR. STANONIK: Well, maybe you did** 

### 11 **--** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: What I'm saying is, I** 

### 13 **thought Ashley was going to take this in and** 

### 14 **read it tomorrow. The report was not going to** 

### 15 **be changed in any way. She was going to read** 

### 16 **this and then --** 

### 17 **MR. STANONIK: I misunderstood.** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: -- hand this sheet** 

### 19 **out.** 

### 20 **MR. STANONIK: I misunderstood.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, the first two** 

### 22 **points, I think we'll probably put in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 397**  **1 docket, because enforcement was in the scope**  

### 2 **and we want the docket to reflect that we did** 

### 3 **actually talk about enforcement and make a** 

### 4 **recommendation on that.** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: Yes, you're putting** 

### 6 **that in the docket.** 

### 7 **MS. BARHYDT: So, we'll put that** 

### 8 **in the docket and --** 

### 9 **MR. EISNER: In addition to the --** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: -- we'll put in the** 

### 11 **change to the heat exchanger.** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: But am I correct,** 

### 13 **that she intended to either hand this sheet** 

### 14 **out or read it to them?** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: I think that is what** 

### 16 **we were discussing. I think people agreed to** 

### 17 **that, but I don't know.** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: I don't think anybody** 

### 19 **is trying to go back and redo the report,** 

### 20 **itself.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: No.** 

### 22 **MR. STANONIK: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 398**  **1 MR. EISNER: Does anybody think it**  

### 2 **should be done that way?** 

### 3 **MS. HOOTMAN: No, I guess I was of** 

### 4 **the opinion also, that they're just going to** 

### 5 **discuss it, yes.** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: Now, again, though** 

### 7 **Frank makes a point, we're not saying that** 

### 8 **much more in these three bullets about the** 

### 9 **sub-group than we said in the original report.** 

### 10 **We did have an update, in terms of** 

### 11 **whatever progress we had today, we had a** 

### 12 **little bit of that in there. The question is** 

### 13 **do we need to give them this?** 

### 14 **The report itself makes the point** 

### 15 **that there were three sub-groups. It is a** 

### 16 **complex issue. So, do we need to add it or do** 

### 17 **we want to keep it simple?** 

### 18 **MR. FERRIOL: Brian with UL. I** 

### 19 **agree with Harvey, that whether it's stating** 

### 20 **the same thing or not, I think that reiterates** 

### 21 **the point that we are continuing in three** 

### 22 **separate groups, and we have diverse views and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 399**  **1 so, I would recommend that we leave it --**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: Would you?** 

### 3 **MR. FERRIOL: -- and again, give** 

### 4 **it to Ashley, to report to the ASRAC.** 

### 5 **01 Maybe that is a good lead in to** 

### 6 **that, we continue to make progress -- continue** 

### 7 **to make progress at this week's meeting. Here** 

### 8 **is the latest status, or something like that.** 

### 9 **MR. THARP: Or it may be that that** 

### 10 **would be just good hit-pocket back-up** 

### 11 **information that she only whips it out if it's** 

### 12 **needed. Most of us go into our meetings for** 

### 13 **projects and things with some supplemental** 

### 14 **information and if you pass with what you** 

### 15 **present, that is okay, and then if there is** 

### 16 **questions, you have some back up material.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: And there are the** 

### 18 **first -- we could give her two sheets of** 

### 19 **paper. The first one would be** 

### 20 **recommendations. The second one would be back** 

### 21 **up information on status.** 

### 22 **All right, is everybody okay with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 400**  **1 that? There is hope for this group to get**  

### 2 **consensus. Any objections?** 

### 3 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: Any objections to any** 

### 5 **of this? Any abstentions? Okay.** 

### 6 **MR. BALLO: I just had a question.** 

### 7 **On the CRE portion, it says the details are** 

### 8 **still to be worked out by the end of October,** 

### 9 **but earlier, I thought I heard that you all** 

### 10 **had some concerns about that kind of a time** 

### 11 **line because of the proposed rule that is out.** 

### 12 **Is that it?** 

### 13 **MR. HON: Yes.** 

### 14 **MR. BALLO: So, is it October or** 

### 15 **is it later than October?** 

### 16 **MS. DANE: I don't think the** 

### 17 **detail -- all of the details hinge on getting** 

### 18 **it done by the end of October.** 

### 19 **Our concern is, is to make sure** 

### 20 **that the implementation of the verification** 

### 21 **program does -- you know, works with what** 

### 22 **we're trying to do on the second one.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 401**  **1 MR. THARP: Delete the phrase `by**  

### 2 **end of October'?** 

### 3 **MS. DANE: No, the details that we** 

### 4 **would be submitting to DOE, we could very** 

### 5 **likely have a framework done.** 

### 6 **What we are saying is, is we won't** 

### 7 **be jumping into a verification program. That** 

### 8 **is not the same thing. Talking about it and** 

### 9 **coming up with the framework is not the same** 

### 10 **as --** 

### 11 **MS. HOOTMAN: Effective date.** 

### 12 **MS. DANE: Right, as the effective** 

### 13 **date.** 

### 14 **MS. HOOTMAN: The effective date** 

### 15 **would not --** 

### 16 **MS. DANE: So, that is one of the** 

### 17 **things that may not be hammered out in our** 

### 18 **report, only because of the new numbers in the** 

### 19 **next report that came out.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: Are you comfortable** 

### 21 **with that?** 

### 22 **MR. THARP: Maybe change `still**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 402**  **1 need' to `could'.**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: Should?** 

### 3 **MR. THARP: That way we just leave** 

### 4 **it like that, you're saying you have the** 

### 5 **capability of doing it.** 

### 6 **MS. DANE: Right.** 

### 7 **MR. THARP: Not committing to it,** 

### 8 **but you have the capability.** 

### 9 **MS. DANE: We have the capability.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: Should or could?** 

### 11 **MR. KOJAK: Could.** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: Could, okay.** 

### 13 **MR. THARP: Could.** 

### 14 **MR. STEPHENS: Boiler and water** 

### 15 **heater section, we've struck out the other** 

### 16 **references to negotiating in good faith and** 

### 17 **issues of legal authority.** 

### 18 **Do we want to modify our** 

### 19 **statement?** 

### 20 **MS. DANE: I thought you were** 

### 21 **going to leave it until Karen saw it.** 

### 22 **MR. STEPHENS: Well, we're going**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 403**  **1 to --**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: We could look at this** 

### 3 **tomorrow morning, if you want to, because** 

### 4 **there are some other people, Karen and -- I** 

### 5 **mean, I'd like to know where we are now, and** 

### 6 **then supplement tomorrow morning, any changes** 

### 7 **that we have.** 

### 8 **MR. STEPHENS: I would not feel** 

### 9 **comfortable with us being the only ones** 

### 10 **mentioning both those things, because that is** 

### 11 **sort of the lay-over from all of the previous** 

### 12 **discussions earlier in the day, and you've** 

### 13 **already agreed to strike the other references** 

### 14 **to those.** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: Did you want to say** 

### 16 **something like we believe we can continue to** 

### 17 **negotiate effectively and continue the** 

### 18 **progress we've initiated, with respect to** 

### 19 **verification testing, period?** 

### 20 **MR. SACHS: I'm struck by Neil's** 

### 21 **comment that -- and remembering that Karen had** 

### 22 **very strong feelings, and I really think we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 404**  **1 ought to let her be part of this.**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: Just put it in red or** 

### 3 **something like. She can focus on it tomorrow** 

### 4 **morning.** 

### 5 **MR. STANONIK: Yes, I'd like to** 

### 6 **just mention that, you know, and this isn't** 

### 7 **essentially, let's say, things that Ashley** 

### 8 **will have to present verbally.** 

### 9 **I guess I have a hard time** 

### 10 **foreseeing that ASRAC will not receive some** 

### 11 **information about the debate that occurred** 

### 12 **here today, regarding legal authority.** 

### 13 **So, I am not at all -- I've been -** 

### 14 **- because of that, I'm not really -- I'm** 

### 15 **comfortable with our statement as it exists.** 

### 16 **I mean, I don't see how you can -- how that** 

### 17 **doesn't at least get mentioned.** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: We'll see.** 

### 19 **MR. STANONIK: Yes, right, we'll** 

### 20 **see.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: Ashley was here for** 

### 22 **the whole thing.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 405**  **1 MR. STANONIK: Yes.**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: Well, the question** 

### 3 **is, do we want to make that just in statement** 

### 4 **-- just in the boiler and water heater area,** 

### 5 **or do we want to make a general statement,** 

### 6 **that there is some concern about the -- about** 

### 7 **legal authority and the ability to negotiate** 

### 8 **in good faith?** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: I think that --** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: Or let's say** 

### 11 **negotiate effectively.** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: I guess what I was** 

### 13 **saying was that Ashley was here for the whole** 

### 14 **thing, and she is an ASRAC member.** 

### 15 **So, regardless of what we say, we** 

### 16 **want her to say, she is going to say whatever** 

### 17 **she wants.** 

### 18 **MS. DANE: And I believe that is** 

### 19 **why CRE worded the statement the way they did.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: We'll throw her off** 

### 21 **the committee.** 

### 22 **MR. FERRIOL: This is Brian. So,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 406**  **1 in light of that discussion, I think whoever**  

### 2 **just un-highlighted legal authority, I agree** 

### 3 **with putting it more of a general statement,** 

### 4 **not highlighting it under the boiler sub** 

### 5 **group, because I think everybody had that same** 

### 6 **feeling.** 

### 7 **MS. DANE: No, I did not have that** 

### 8 **feeling and I don't -- Charlie, did you have** 

### 9 **that feeling?** 

### 10 **MR. FERRIOL: With regard to?** 

### 11 **MS. DANE: With regard to whether** 

### 12 **or not DOE had the authority.** 

### 13 **MR. STANONIK: But you're** 

### 14 **validating the statement. There is not** 

### 15 **complete agreement. There is a difference of** 

### 16 **opinion on it. Your opinion is -- I mean,** 

### 17 **that is just -- that is just stating the fact.** 

### 18 **MS. DANE: I guess my point is it** 

### 19 **was centralized in certain groups, not --** 

### 20 **MR. STANONIK: I'm sorry, I mean,** 

### 21 **doesn't matter. You know, the rules of the** 

### 22 **working group, our consensus is no more than**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 407**  **1 two `no' votes. It doesn't say which two or**  

### 2 **whatever, and so, I mean --** 

### 3 **MR. STEPHENS: I think we can use** 

### 4 **some formatting to identify this and mention** 

### 5 **CRE first and then mention the legal issues** 

### 6 **and the other two groups.** 

### 7 **MS. DANE: I believe CRE's** 

### 8 **comments address that we agreed already.** 

### 9 **MR. HUDNALL: That is your first** 

### 10 **statement.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, that is your** 

### 12 **first statement. I think that takes care of** 

### 13 **the concern.** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: Jeremiah, in the** 

### 15 **boiler and water heater one, why don't you put** 

### 16 **brackets around good faith and the legal** 

### 17 **issue, so that we don't miss that in the** 

### 18 **morning?** 

### 19 **Okay, other comments? We'll get** 

### 20 **at people's ideas tomorrow morning and then** 

### 21 **resolve all of this.** 

### 22 **MS. DANE: Can we discuss the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 408**  **1 schedule for tomorrow morning? Are we --**  

### 2 **because first I heard we were going to talk** 

### 3 **about motors. Now, I'm hearing that there** 

### 4 **might be some other discussion related to** 

### 5 **this.** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: Well, I think this** 

### 7 **should probably come up first.** 

### 8 **MS. DANE: Okay.** 

### 9 **MR. EISNER: Then we should get to** 

### 10 **motors, if everybody is okay with that.** 

### 11 **MR. KLEISS: So, we will all** 

### 12 **convene together here?** 

### 13 **MS. DANE: At 8:30 a.m.?** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: Yes.** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: So, if lawyers are** 

### 16 **just going to talk for a long time --** 

### 17 **MR. THARP: Which they will.** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: -- it does seem --** 

### 19 **unfair to make CRE and water heater --** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: You can come early.** 

### 21 **MR. KLEISS: Water heater and** 

### 22 **boilers, we have plenty to discuss.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 409**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so, you're**  

### 2 **going to be here anyway?** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: Yes.** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: I think all of us** 

### 6 **will probably benefit.** 

### 7 **MR. AMRANE: Are we meeting from** 

### 8 **8:30 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. tomorrow?** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, it's on the** 

### 10 **schedule.** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It's on the** 

### 12 **schedule that way.** 

### 13 **MR. AMRANE: And we can get to the** 

### 14 **ASRAC?** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: So, when we all met** 

### 16 **and set up the schedule, we said we will break** 

### 17 **for the ASRAC meeting. Anyone who has to go** 

### 18 **to the ASRAC meeting can go to the ASRAC** 

### 19 **meeting.** 

### 20 **Then whenever that is done, we'll** 

### 21 **resume here, assuming that ASRAC authorizes us** 

### 22 **to continue.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 410**  **1 MR. EISNER: Where does ASRAC fit**  

### 2 **in?** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: I think it's at one.** 

### 4 **MR. SHEBIK: Is there a dial-in** 

### 5 **number or a webinar for the ASRAC meeting,** 

### 6 **that I can dial in to?** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: Where do they meet,** 

### 8 **though? In this building?** 

### 9 **MR. AMRANE: But are we going to** 

### 10 **be able to --** 

### 11 **MR. FREEMAN: It's a dial in. So,** 

### 12 **if you guys want to participate, we can do it** 

### 13 **so the person running the meeting webinar can** 

### 14 **connect to ASRAC's meeting, but it would** 

### 15 **essentially shut down your meeting.** 

### 16 **MR. AMRANE: Yes, okay.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 18 **MR. KLEISS: I would ask that** 

### 19 **tomorrow morning, we establish up front, who** 

### 20 **will be back here after the ASRAC meeting --** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: Right.** 

### 22 **MR. KLEISS: -- because I don't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 411**  **1 want -- if half the people are going to be**  

### 2 **here, I don't want to be in that half.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: If everyone is** 

### 4 **leaving, you want to leave.** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: He doesn't want to be** 

### 6 **in the half that is here.** 

### 7 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: That is when we're** 

### 9 **going to schedule all the final votes on** 

### 10 **everything.** 

### 11 **MR. SACHS: If it goes until five,** 

### 12 **I hope we get somewhere -- I vote we will be** 

### 13 **convening from five until six.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: Right. From what** 

### 15 **Ashley told me, there isn't a lot of schedule** 

### 16 **other than this. So, I don't see how they** 

### 17 **could talk about this for that long.** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: So, you said they** 

### 19 **don't meet in this building?** 

### 20 **MR. SHEBIK: They don't.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: They're webinar.** 

### 22 **(Simultaneous speaking.)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 412**  **1 MR. EISNER: Okay, they're not**  

### 2 **here either?** 

### 3 **(Simultaneous speaking.)** 

### 4 **MR. SHEBIK: So, sorry, you said** 

### 5 **that we will be able to join through this** 

### 6 **webinar tomorrow, the ASRAC meeting?** 

### 7 **MR. FREEMAN: So, the people on** 

### 8 **the phone will have to reconnect to a** 

### 9 **different webinar information, which I will** 

### 10 **send out tonight.** 

### 11 **MR. SHEBIK: Okay, great, thanks.** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: So, we reached some** 

### 13 **kind of a consensus that we will stay on for** 

### 14 **no more than a certain amount of time?** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: I don't know, my** 

### 16 **sense is that if they're still talking about** 

### 17 **our stuff, then probably everybody here wants** 

### 18 **to hear what is going on.** 

### 19 **MS. DANE: Right.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: And we'll all be in** 

### 21 **this room anyway?** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 413**  **1 MS. DANE: Right.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: And we'll just** 

### 3 **transition over and we'll connect to their** 

### 4 **webinar.** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: Okay.** 

### 6 **MR. KOJAK: So, in the morning** 

### 7 **though, are we talking about motors? What are** 

### 8 **we doing in the morning?** 

### 9 **MR. EISNER: Well, I believe we're** 

### 10 **going to start with the ASRAC supplement, so** 

### 11 **we make sure we have that done in time for her** 

### 12 **to have it for the meeting. That is my** 

### 13 **thought, and then we will talk about motor** 

### 14 **requirements, but that is also a time that you** 

### 15 **could break up in sub-groups.** 

### 16 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes, break out.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: And Laura won't be** 

### 18 **here until 9:30 a.m. or 10:00 a.m.** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: I'll be here. I** 

### 20 **will be here.** 

### 21 **MS. HOOTMAN: That was a stab.** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: It was, but I've**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 414**  **1 complained about those 8:00 a.m. meetings. 2 (Simultaneous speaking.)**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 4 (Simultaneous speaking.)**  **5 MR. SACHS: I'm hearing a motion 6 to adjourn.**  **7 MR. EISNER: All right. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.**  **9 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 10 matter concluded at 5:40 p.m.)**  **11 12**  **13 14**  **15 16**  **17 18**  **19 20**  **21 22** 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 415 A AAON 1:23 144:10 abeyance335:6 ability57:19 63:10

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273:21 85 3:17 9 9:0842:10 9:2542:11 9:30413:18 90 3:18 90s 30:3 90's7:9 97 3:19 99 31:20NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 458

Commercial HVAC, Water Heating and Refrigeration Equipment

US DOE

09-11-13

Washington, DC