Exhibit 1 

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.720 Filed 08/01/16 Page 1 of 39
Electronically signed by Lauri Sheldon (001-336-738-9633) a6c3207c-a588-4746-8455-daabafd5685d

Monica Rogers

3/8/2016

248-608-9250

Tri-County Court Reporters

1 (Pages 1 to 4)

Page 1

 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

 EASTERN DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN

 SOUTHERN DIVISION

MONICA J. ROGERS,

 Plaintiff,

 CASE NO:2:15-cv-12312

vs. Hon. Marianne O. Battani

HENRY FORD HEALTH SYSTEM,

a Michigan corporation,

 Defendant.

_________________________________________/

 The deposition of MONICA ROGERS,

taken before me, Lauri A. Sheldon, CSR 4045, RPR, on March 8,

2016, at 33 Bloomfield Hills Parkway, Suite 250, Bloomfield

Hills, Michigan, commencing at or about 9:51 a.m.

APPEARANCES:

 VARNUM LLP

 BY: TERRENCE J. MIGLIO, ESQUIRE

 and BARBARA BUCHANAN, ATTORNEY AT LAW

 160 W. Fort Street, 5th Floor

 Detroit, Michigan 48226

 313-481-7335

 Appearing on behalf of the Defendant.

 STERLING ATTORNEYS AT LAW, P.C.

 BY: GERALD D. WAHL, ESQUIRE

 33 Bloomfield Hills Parkway, Suite 250

 Bloomfield Hills, Michigan 48304

 248-851-1500

 gwahl@sterlingattorneys.com

 Appearing on behalf of the Plaintiff.

Page 2

1 INDEX

2 WITNESS: MONICA ROGERS PAGE

3 Examination by Mr. Miglio 5

4 Examination by Mr. Wahl 317

5 Re-Examination by Mr. Miglio 337

6 Re-Examination by Mr. Wahl 350

7 Re-Examination by Mr. Miglio 351

8 * * *

9 INDEX OF EXHIBITS

10 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE

11 No. 1 Complaint 11

12 No. 2 Docket Sheet 12

13 No. 3 Case Inquiry 13

14 No. 4 Register of Action 13

15 No. 5 Resume 22

16 No. 6 Employee Reference Guide 50

17 No. 7 Job Description 58

18 No. 8 Interoffice Memorandum 61

19 No. 9 OHRD - Monthly/Staff Meeting 62

20 No. 10 Employee Performance Appraisal 65

21 No. 11 June 20, 2008, Memo 67

22 No. 12 Department - OHRD Meeting July 29, 2008 68

23 No. 13 July 30, 2008, Letter 74

24 No. 14 Typed Notes 78

25 No. 15 Monday, 1/12/09, Week 2 Results 82

Page 3

1 No. 16 Employee File Report 84

2 No. 17 Employee Track Meeting Summary Notes 86

3 No. 18 Employee File Report 89

4 No. 19 Note to File 93

5 No. 20 HFHS - Employee Assistance Program 99

6 Formal Disciplinary Action Referral

7 No. 21 Memorandum 106

8 No. 22 Requirement Guidelines 108

9 No. 23 Email 114

10 No. 24 Typed Notes 115

11 No. 25 List of OHRD Consultants 154

12 No. 26 HFHS 2013 Performance Plan Goal for 166

13 Monica J. Rogers

14 No. 27 Letter to Derick Adams 169

15 No. 28 Notes and Observations - Interview 192

16 with Monica Rogers May 8, 2013

17 No. 29 Monica's Duties 214

18 No. 30 Email 205

19 No. 31 Job Title: Consultant - OHRD 209

20 No. 32 Email 215

21 No. 33 EEOC Intake Questionnaire 217

22 No. 34 HER Analyst - F05818 218

23 No. 35 U.S. Department of Labor Letter 237

24 No. 36 Typed Notes 245

25

Page 4

1 No. 37 Impaired Healthcare Worker Behavioral 246

2 Observation Checklist and Fitness for

3 Duty Evaluation

4 No. 38 Impaired Healthcare Worker Behavioral 247

5 Observation Checklist and Fitness for

6 Duty Evaluation

7 No. 39 Impaired Healthcare Worker Behavioral 247

8 Observation Checklist and Fitness for

9 Duty Evaluation

10 No. 40 Charge of Discrimination 248

11 No. 41 Employee Health Physician Activity 250

12 No. 42 Letter to Mr. Louzon 259

13 No. 43 Typed Notes 261

14 No. 44 Return to Work Meeting 273

15 No. 45 Charge of Discrimination 275

16 No. 46 Typed Notes 277

17 No. 47 Request for Flexible Work Arrangement 284

18 No. 48 Notes on Discrimination 291

19 No. 49 Conciliation Agreement 306

20 No. 50 Letter 306

21 No. 51 Typed Notes 307

22 No. 52 Email Stream 308

23

24

25

_____________

f MONICA R

______

GERS,

___

ROG

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.721 Filed 08/01/16 Page 2 of 39
Electronically signed by Lauri Sheldon (001-336-738-9633) a6c3207c-a588-4746-8455-daabafd5685d

Monica Rogers

3/8/2016

248-608-9250

Tri-County Court Reporters

7 (Pages 25 to 28)

Page 25

1 Q What position were you holding at the time you applied

2 for the OHRD consultant position?

3 A Business partner. HR business partner.

4 Q And that would be your current position?

5 A Correct.

6 Q So while you were a business partner in -- within Health

7 Alliance Plan, you applied for an OHRD consultant

8 position.

9 A Yes.

10 Q And where was that position posted? What area or what

11 location?

12 A It was posted at One Ford Place.

13 Q Okay. And what was the result of your application?

14 A I just got a rejection saying that I didn't meet the

15 qualifications, I think, is what it said.

16 Q Do you know who was selected for that job?

17 A I don't.

18 Q And were you applying for that position because you were

19 interested in it?

20 A Absolutely.

21 Q Do you know who it reported to?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Who?

24 A It reported to the manager. I don't know -- the new

25 manager that was in the area. I don't know -- I think

Page 26

1 it was Doreen. I'm not sure if it was Doreen.

2 Q When you say "new manager in the area," what new

3 manager?

4 A There was a change in leadership after I left the

5 department, and so whoever the new manager was over the

6 area that I applied for is who I would have been

7 reporting directly to.

8 Q When you say "new manager," you mean the manager that

9 replaced the previous manager?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And who did the new manager replace?

12 A Barbara Bressack.

13 Q So essentially you were applying to go back to the same

14 department that you came from when you went to Health

15 Alliance Plan.

16 A Yes.

17 Q Why were you doing that?

18 A Because that's the job that I loved.

19 Q And in that position you would have reported to the new

20 manager, and the new manager would have reported to

21 whom?

22 A To Laurie Jensen.

23 Q Laurie Jensen, the person that you said discriminated

24 against you.

25 A The person that did discriminate against me.

Page 27

1 Q Okay. And she discriminated against you by not giving

2 you a senior OHRD consultant position.

3 A That's one of the ways, yes.

4 Q How else did Laurie Jensen discriminate against you?

5 A It started as late as -- as early as late July of 2008

6 is when there was an issue that came up that we were

7 discussing flex schedule when two white employees were

8 given preferential treatment over everybody else in the

9 department, and I said -- and I had a conversation

10 that -- that it was discriminatory. And later on it

11 happened again in 2010. I had a conversation even after

12 the -- with Laurie Jensen regarding the 2008 incident

13 and I asked her why is it that she can come into a

14 meeting and yell at us and call us names and do

15 everything virtually except for jumping on the table,

16 walk out of the door and slam the door, and everybody

17 looks at her and says, "Oh, but isn't she cute?" And I

18 said, "Why is it that if I as a black woman disagrees

19 with you, then I'm an angry black woman?" And she said,

20 "You girls always use that as a copout." So I filed a

21 formal complaint with Ed Kai about her at that time. So

22 it goes -- This goes way back.

23 Q Okay. So let me get this straight. So in 2008 you felt

24 that she was discriminating against you, you personally,

25 because she was allowing white employees to utilize flex

Page 28

1 time and not you? Is that what you're saying?

2 A No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is I

3 felt that the process that she used was discriminatory

4 in selecting who got flex time and who didn't, and when

5 I objected to it, it became an issue which later on -- I

6 mean even two years later it comes up again, and I'm

7 sitting over in, you know, EAP for this issue. So it

8 was -- It's just been an ongoing thing since that time.

9 Q All right. Just focus on 2008, though. You're saying

10 that she would grant, if I understand what you're

11 saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, she would grant

12 white employees the opportunity to use flex time?

13 A No. What I'm saying to you is is that the flex was

14 something that was a new program that was rolled out,

15 and when she announced it to the team that it was rolled

16 out, she also announced that two employees who happened

17 to be white had already come to them with their

18 selections on what they wanted, so they got first, you

19 know, treatment of what -- first opportunity to choose

20 what days they wanted to flex.

21 Q Okay. So who were those two employees?

22 A It was Deedra Climer and Barbara Bressack.

23 Q Okay. And you objected because she already gave -- went

24 to these employees and offered them flex time?

25 A Yes.

 Business partner. HR business partner.

4 Q And that would be your current position?

5 A Correct.

two white employees were

8 given preferential treatment over everybody else in the

9 department, a

- as early as late July of 2008

6 is when there was an issue that came up that we were

7 discussing flex schedule when t

"You girls always use that as a copout.

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.722 Filed 08/01/16 Page 3 of 39
Electronically signed by Lauri Sheldon (001-336-738-9633) a6c3207c-a588-4746-8455-daabafd5685d

Monica Rogers

3/8/2016

248-608-9250

Tri-County Court Reporters

8 (Pages 29 to 32)

Page 29

1 Q Did you ever use flex time?

2 A I did for a short while.

3 Q So you requested and received the opportunity to use

4 flex time.

5 A Afterwards, yes.

6 Q And your issue was that because she went to these

7 employees first --

8 A Hm-hmm.

9 Q -- you felt that was discriminatory.

10 A It was, especially since it's proper protocol that

11 anytime that you are -- a new benefit that is going into

12 effect, if it's going to be something that is for

13 everybody, that everybody should be notified at the same

14 time, because with a flex schedule it depends on, and I

15 asked her, you know, because the debate was, you know,

16 what if you get two employees that are requesting the

17 same time off? And she said it would be first come,

18 first serve, so that kind of validated to me that,

19 again, that that was discriminatory practice, because

20 they were allowed to have this opportunity before

21 everyone else.

22 Q Well, you thought it was discriminatory because she said

23 first come, first serve?

24 A No. I thought it was discriminatory because they had

25 the opportunity before anyone else.

Page 30

1 Q Okay. But if I'm hearing what you're saying, when you

2 requested to use flex time, she allowed you to use it?

3 A I requested flex time afterwards, yeah, but I had to

4 take whatever days were left. They were, you know, the

5 days, they had already select -- Two people couldn't be

6 off at the same time.

7 Q So what did you want that you didn't get is what I'm

8 saying to you in the way of flex time?

9 A I wanted Monday off.

10 Q So you didn't get Monday off.

11 A Right.

12 Q But you got some other day.

13 A Right.

14 Q And you're saying under oath that the reason you didn't

15 get Monday off was because one or both of these two

16 white employees you just identified were given Monday

17 off? Is that what you're saying?

18 A I'm saying under oath that's what I believe.

19 Q All right. Well, is that the case or that's just what

20 you think is what I'm asking?

21 A It happened, so it's a fact.

22 Q And did you ever tell her in 2008, "I don't think you

23 should have given them the first opportunity"?

24 A I did.

25 Q Okay. What did she say?

Page 31

1 A Well, she objected to it and she told Amy Schultz,

2 "That's why I didn't want to do this."

3 Q When you say -- What I asked you was did you ever tell

4 her that you had problems with her offering flex time to

5 these two white employees. You said, yes, correct, you

6 did say that?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And what did she say in response to you?

9 A I just said -- told you what she said.

10 Q She said --

11 A "That's why I didn't want to do this."

12 Q That's what she told you.

13 A That was her response.

14 Q What did you understand her to mean by that?

15 A She was having -- She said that -- directed that

16 response to Amy, not me.

17 Q That's why she didn't want to do that. So tell me

18 what -- your interpretation of what she said.

19 A I think that's what she meant was that that's why she

20 didn't want to participate in the flex scheduling.

21 Q Because she didn't want to get involved in all the

22 bickering over it.

23 A I have no -- I guess. I have no idea to understand what

24 she meant as far as -- All I -- I know she was talking

25 about flex schedule, but that's all I can think that she

Page 32

1 was referring to.

2 Q So is this what you made a complaint to Ed Kai about?

3 A No. What I made a complaint to Ed Kai about was the

4 fact that she said, when I asked her about this whole

5 thing why that she could act and disagree in a very

6 unprofessional way that she is looked at as being cute,

7 and when I disagreed with her, using the same tone as

8 I'm using right now, I'm looked at as being an angry

9 black woman? And she said, "You girls always use that

10 as a copout."

11 Q When did you make the complaint to Ed Kai?

12 A Immediately after that meeting, which was in July of

13 2008.

14 Q Okay. So this was something that also occurred in 2008?

15 A Hm-hmm.

16 Q You have to answer yes --

17 A Yes.

18 Q -- or no.

19 A I'm sorry.

20 Q So in addition to the flex time issue in 2008, there's a

21 conversation where you asked her what, about why she was

22 slamming doors or showing anger or something?

23 A No. I -- My question to her was, because we were having

24 a transparent dialogue and I asked her permission to

25 have -- to provide her with some honest feedback and she

 And your issue was that because she went to these

7 employees first --

8 A Hm-hmm.

9 Q -- you felt that was discriminatory.

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.723 Filed 08/01/16 Page 4 of 39
Electronically signed by Lauri Sheldon (001-336-738-9633) a6c3207c-a588-4746-8455-daabafd5685d

Monica Rogers

3/8/2016

248-608-9250

Tri-County Court Reporters

13 (Pages 49 to 52)

Page 49

1 A Really? Yes, it's in there.

2 Q Well, maybe it's not in there because we didn't have you

3 sign the psychiatric psychology release, but we'll see

4 about that.

5 MR. WAHL: I think the dates are wrong.

6 MR. MIGLIO: What?

7 MR. WAHL: I think the dates on your subpoena

8 were from 2005 --

9 THE WITNESS: Oh.

10 MR. MIGLIO: Okay.

11 MR. WAHL: -- forward, and if it just goes

12 back to the early 'nineties, then we're off 10 to 15

13 years.

14 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

15 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Can you describe for me your

16 educational background?

17 A I have, I guess it's equivalent to about a year-and-half

18 to two years of credits toward a degree.

19 Q And where did you take those one-and-a-half to two

20 years?

21 A Davenport University.

22 Q Do you know how many credits that would have equaled?

23 A I don't know exactly how many.

24 Q But you say it was one-and-a-half to two years.

25 A Hm-hmm.

Page 50

1 Q Correct?

2 A Yes.

3 Q When did you attend Davenport University?

4 A Oh, off and on probably since the eighties.

5 Q When is the last time you attended?

6 A Was it in the 2000? Maybe. It was like the beginning

7 2000s or late nineties.

8 (Exhibit 6 marked.)

9 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Let me show you what's been

10 marked as Exhibit No. 6.

11 A Hm-hmm.

12 Q And ask you to take a look at that. Do you know what

13 this is?

14 A Looks like an evaluation form.

15 Q So it looks like you acknowledge receiving an employee

16 reference guide.

17 A Yeah, back in 1997.

18 Q You had some discovery that's gone back and forth in

19 this case, and your lawyer has requested some

20 information pertaining to particular employees within

21 the human resources department within Henry Ford Health

22 System. One of them is Brian Robertson. And my

23 question to you is have you ever accessed any

24 information concerning Brian Robertson using your HR

25 access code to get into the computer system?

Page 51

1 A His PeopleSoft record? No.

2 Q Okay. Have you ever accessed any information concerning

3 Brian Robertson?

4 A Not unless it had to do with the Henry Ford University.

5 Q Meaning that he applied for some college -- I mean some

6 course; is what you're saying?

7 A Yeah.

8 Q What about Patti Sanburn? Have you ever accessed any

9 information of hers?

10 A No.

11 Q What about Debbie Saoud?

12 A No.

13 Q Carol Bridges?

14 A No.

15 MR. WAHL: Tara Boufford is --

16 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Tara Boufford?

17 A No.

18 Q What do you know about whether any of those individuals

19 have degrees, college degrees, or college education?

20 A Terry, I guess the only -- I'm sorry, Mr. Miglio, I

21 guess the only thing that I could say to that is that

22 it's common knowledge that people talk in HR about the

23 things that happen, and it's based off of conversations

24 that I've had.

25 Q What about Nicole Logan, the same question? Have you

Page 52

1 accessed any of her information?

2 A No.

3 Q And so what do you know about Brian Robertson's

4 educational background?

5 A I know, because he worked with me, that he didn't have a

6 degree. He said it.

7 Q Okay.

8 A He and I talked about it.

9 Q What about Patti Sanburn?

10 A What do I know about her?

11 Q Yeah.

12 A Just based off of what I've heard in HR.

13 Q And what have you heard in HR?

14 A That she doesn't have a degree.

15 Q Okay. And what about Carol Bridges?

16 A I know that because she told me herself that she didn't.

17 Q All right. And Tara Boufford, what do you know about

18 her educational background?

19 A I know that she didn't have a degree.

20 Q Did not or does not?

21 A At the time that I wrote this did not.

22 Q What about Nicole Logan?

23 A I just -- I know that Nicole has an undergraduate

24 degree. Nicole came to Henry Ford as an intern, so I

25 worked with her then.

 to two years of credits toward a degree.

 I have, I guess it's equivalent to about a year-and-half

 When did you attend Davenport University?

4 A Oh, off and on probably since the eighties.

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.724 Filed 08/01/16 Page 5 of 39
Electronically signed by Lauri Sheldon (001-336-738-9633) a6c3207c-a588-4746-8455-daabafd5685d

Monica Rogers

3/8/2016

248-608-9250

Tri-County Court Reporters

14 (Pages 53 to 56)

Page 53

1 Q Okay. And what about Debbie Saoud? What do you know

2 about her education?

3 A I don't know about her education.

4 Q Well, she is listed as somebody who you claim didn't

5 have the educational qualifications for the position

6 she --

7 A No. What I claimed with Debbie Saoud is that the job

8 description was changed for experience level, that the

9 job descriptions for people for leadership position

10 is -- was normally at a minimum of two years, and I know

11 that she had one.

12 Q Were you ever encouraged during the course of your

13 employment at Henry Ford Health System to complete your

14 college education and get a degree?

15 A Early on, yeah.

16 Q By whom?

17 A Patrick Irwin.

18 Q Anybody since Patrick Irwin encouraged you to do that?

19 A No.

20 Q And does -- At any time during the time that you worked

21 at Henry Ford Health System have they had a tuition

22 reimbursement program --

23 A Yes.

24 Q -- you could get reimbursed for?

25 A Yes.

Page 54

1 Q And is it your understanding that had you completed your

2 coursework at Davenport University to get a degree that

3 you would have been reimbursed by Henry Ford Health

4 System?

5 A That's my understanding.

6 Q Now, when did you first become an OHRD consultant?

7 A That title changed for 2007.

8 Q When is the first time you held the position?

9 A With that title in 2007.

10 Q Okay. And how did you get it?

11 A I actually was in the position as a senior rep for OD

12 and I was put on a rotation where I worked over at Henry

13 Ford Health System for four or five years, however long

14 it was, and upon return to my position it was changed,

15 the job title had changed to -- to senior OD consultant

16 and OD consultant.

17 Q Okay. So you were on rotation as a senior employment

18 rep.

19 A No. As a senior rep for OD.

20 Q Okay. And what do you mean you were rotating?

21 A I was approached by Bob Riney to -- asked to do a

22 rotation at Detroit campus in the employee relations

23 division, to cover for Rebecca Claxton while out on a

24 maternity leave, and she came back, but in the process

25 of her coming back to work, the position that I held was

Page 55

1 filled by Amy Schultz. She -- So there was no position

2 at that time for me to come back to.

3 Q Okay. So what did they do? They created one for you?

4 A No. I stayed over at -- Patrick Irwin had the FTE, so I

5 stayed in the employee relations position.

6 Q So when you came back, you became an OHRD consultant?

7 A No. My title never changed. The whole time I was on

8 the rotation my title was senior rep OD.

9 Q All right. When did it change?

10 A When I came back they had changed it to . . .

11 Q Okay.

12 A 2007.

13 Q So you never applied for an OHRD position other than

14 recently.

15 A It was my old position. I rotated back into it.

16 Q So the answer is you never had to apply to become an

17 OHRD consultant, correct?

18 A I did not have to apply.

19 Q All right. So what they basically did is they slotted

20 you into that position?

21 A That is not true. They didn't slot me. I was on a

22 rotation, so I just went back to my position. The title

23 just happened to change.

24 Q Did you meet the qualifications for the OR -- OHRD

25 consultant position --

Page 56

1 A As a --

2 Q -- when you first assumed that job?

3 A As a senior rep OD I met the qualification because it

4 was college degree or equivalency with experience.

5 Q And that was when?

6 A When I first got that position? Is that your question?

7 Q Yeah.

8 A I got that position in late nineties.

9 Q Okay. And didn't it require a college degree?

10 A No, it did not.

11 Q As a requirement?

12 A No, it did not.

13 Q Okay. So you got the job because you met the

14 requirements for that position.

15 A Yes, I did.

16 Q When is it your understanding, if at all, the job

17 changed to require a -- Strike that.

18 When -- Is it your understanding that the OHRD

19 consultant position ever required a bachelor's degree?

20 A The OHRD?

21 Q Consultant position.

22 A It was changed. I don't know when that happened, but it

23 is my understanding that that is true. It does require

24 a --

25 Q Okay. And is it your testimony that it didn't require a

 I actually was in the position as a senior rep for OD

 a senior rep for OD.

 stayed in the employee relations position.

 No. I stayed over at -- Patrick Irwin had the FTE, so I

 was college degree or equivalency with experience.

 As a senior rep OD I met the qualification because it

 And didn't it require a college degree?

 No, it did not.

 When is the first time you held the position?

 With that title in 2007.

 Now, when did you first become an OHRD consultant?

 That title changed for 2007.

d upon return to my position it was changed,

 the job title had changed to -- to senior OD consultant

 and OD consultant.

 So you never applied for an OHRD position other than

 recently.

 So the answer is you never had to apply to become an

 OHRD consultant, correct?

 I did not have to apply.

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.725 Filed 08/01/16 Page 6 of 39
Electronically signed by Lauri Sheldon (001-336-738-9633) a6c3207c-a588-4746-8455-daabafd5685d

Monica Rogers

3/8/2016

248-608-9250

Tri-County Court Reporters

15 (Pages 57 to 60)

Page 57

1 bachelor's degree before you assumed the position?

2 A It is my testimony that as a senior rep of OD I met the

3 qualifications, so I was grandfathered into my same

4 position. It was the same position. The title just

5 changed.

6 Q I understand what you're saying, but I want to be clear

7 on all these job titles.

8 A Okay.

9 Q At some point in time you became a consultant OHRD or

10 OHRD consultant, correct?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And you're saying you were grandfathered into that

13 position because of your previous position that you

14 held, which was a senior OD rep, correct?

15 A No. What I'm saying to you is one in the same position.

16 A simple title change.

17 Q Okay. When you say "grandfathered," what do you mean?

18 A I mean that I -- since I met the qualifications of the

19 senior rep for OD, which was a position that I held, so

20 I met that qualification, and because the title changed

21 I got grandfathered into meeting the qualifications,

22 because those were for people as of 2007 that were not

23 in the position. I was already in the position.

24 Q But when -- Define what you mean by grandfathered. You

25 mean you didn't have to meet the qualification?

Page 58

1 A It means that I met the qualifications as it was for the

2 job that I was hired for.

3 Q But if we looked at the job description of OHRD

4 consultant as of the time you assumed that job, we would

5 see that it required a bachelor's degree, correct?

6 A At the time that I assumed that job, that is correct.

7 Q Okay. So let's just . . .

8 (Exhibit 7 marked.)

9 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): So let me show you what's

10 been marked as Exhibit 7 --

11 A Okay.

12 Q -- and ask you if this is the position description --

13 A Hm-hmm.

14 Q -- or job description of the consultant OHRD position

15 that you were grandfathered in.

16 A It looks like it, yes.

17 Q Okay.

18 MR. WAHL: Flip it over.

19 THE WITNESS: Okay.

20 MR. WAHL: Well, he may ask you about it.

21 Keep it open.

22 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Who told you that you were

23 grandfathered in?

24 A It is practice within Henry Ford Health System that I

25 have been a part of opportun -- many times when a person

Page 59

1 was in a position, when the qualifications changed,

2 those people that are in that position get grandfathered

3 into that same position even though the qualifications

4 may have changed.

5 Q Okay. That's not what I asked you. I asked you who

6 told you that you were being grandfathered in, if

7 anybody?

8 A Bill Peterson for one.

9 Q He said you're being grandfathered in?

10 A He said that I qualified for the position. He didn't

11 use those terms.

12 Q To your knowledge, since 2007, since this job

13 description, has the OHRD consultant position ever had a

14 requirement of less than a bachelor's degree?

15 A Not that I know of.

16 Q When did the senior OHRD consultant position come into

17 place?

18 A I don't know.

19 Q Did it come into place at the same time that OHRD

20 consultant position came into existence?

21 A I would imagine that it did, but I can't say for

22 certain.

23 Q And if I understand your testimony, you were a senior OD

24 rep and then you became an OHRD consultant, correct?

25 A That is correct.

Page 60

1 Q And you became an OHRD consultant when they changed the

2 job title, or were there still senior OD reps in the

3 system when you became an OHRD consultant?

4 A There were no more senior OD reps. My -- They -- I

5 don't know if that title got changed prior to me coming

6 back or not, but I just I know that my title didn't

7 change until after I came back to OD.

8 Q So when you slotted into the -- Strike that.

9 When you were grandfathered into the OHRD

10 consultant position, who was your immediate supervisor?

11 A Laurie Jensen.

12 Q And do you know whether she had anything to say with

13 whether you would get that job or not?

14 A I think -- Well, based off of what I was told by Bill

15 Peterson, there was some conversation that they didn't

16 want me to come to that position, and he told them that

17 it was the right thing to do, and that's why I was put

18 back into my old job.

19 Q Do you know anything more about the conversation why

20 they didn't want you in that position?

21 A I don't.

22 Q So you came into the -- You were grandfathered into the

23 OD -- OHD -- O --

24 A H.

25 Q I've said it so many times now. OHRD consultant

 rep and then you became an OHRD consultant, correct?

 And if I understand your testimony, you were a senior OD

 when the qualifications changed,

 those people that are in that position get grandfathered

 into that same position even though the qualifications

 may have changed.

 I asked you who

 told you that you were being grandfathered in, 

 who was your immediate supervisor?

 Laurie Jensen.

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.726 Filed 08/01/16 Page 7 of 39
Electronically signed by Lauri Sheldon (001-336-738-9633) a6c3207c-a588-4746-8455-daabafd5685d

Monica Rogers

3/8/2016

248-608-9250

Tri-County Court Reporters

18 (Pages 69 to 72)

Page 69

1 she wrote, "presented --

2 A That I wrote.?

3 Q -- concerns to Monica" -- No. I said --

4 A Oh.

5 Q Let's assume that she wrote it since her name's at the

6 bottom.

7 A Okay.

8 Q "Presented concerns to Monica Rogers, who leads our

9 Renewal program. See letter stating that I'm concerned

10 that she has not brought the Renewal facilitators

11 together for regular meetings as was known prior to her

12 taking over the program."

13 Do you remember Laurie approaching you or

14 having a discussion with you about that?

15 A We had a lot of conversations about Renewal, and this

16 could have been one about we need to bring them

17 together. But to say this, I don't recall this specific

18 conversation, no.

19 Q Okay. Let's go back to Exhibit 12. All right. So can

20 you take a look at this?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And have you seen this before?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Okay. And this seems to be about some meetings about

25 flex time?

Page 70

1 A Yes.

2 Q All right. And do you know who wrote this?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Who?

5 A Amy Schultz.

6 Q Okay.

7 A Hm-hmm.

8 Q And she says here, "Monica Roger continues to challenge

9 me in public at our OHRD meetings. This time I was

10 verbally assaulted by Monica as she blamed me for

11 unfairly approving Deedra's flex arrangement without it

12 going out to the entire group at once. This is untrue,

13 as the email sent to the entire OHRD team was at the

14 same time with the flex policy within it, and because

15 Deedra has initiative, she filled it out and sent it to

16 me. After reviewing it with Laurie, I approved it."

17 A Hm-hmm.

18 Q Do you dispute that?

19 A It's not accurate.

20 Q What's not accurate about it?

21 A It's not accurate, first, the word "challenges" in her

22 in public, it was very few meetings, first of all, that

23 I've had that included Amy since I didn't report to her.

24 And the other thing was is that the emails announcing

25 flex may have gone out to everybody at the same time,

Page 71

1 but the issue that was brought up with this is that

2 prior to that email going out they had already met and

3 approved days off for two people, Deedra and Barbara

4 Bressack. So that was the concern.

5 Q Well, I'm not getting that from here. I mean she seems

6 to be saying that after the email went out Deedra took

7 the initiative and asked for flex time, and you dispute

8 that.

9 A I do.

10 Q Okay. And we can find an email presumably announcing

11 it?

12 A I don't know. She said an email went out.

13 Q So are you denying that an email went out to everybody

14 announcing flex time?

15 A I can't -- No, I'm not denying it.

16 Q But you're saying you have some evidence to suggest that

17 even before the email went out Deedra had flex time

18 approved, Deedra and Barbara Bressack.

19 A Bressack.

20 Q Correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And how do you know that?

23 A Because Laurie told everybody.

24 Q Okay. Then she says here in the third paragraph,

25 "Monica used communication violence when speaking with

Page 72

1 me. This was confirmed by others in the room, and she

2 accused me of being unfair and that everyone now does

3 not have the same chance to get a flex schedule because

4 she sees it as a first come, first serve opportunity. I

5 did not agree. I think this is based on productivity

6 and results and there's specific job descriptions that

7 will enable them to work from home and have flexibility

8 or not work from home because they may have

9 responsibilities that keep them within the office."

10 A Hm-hmm.

11 Q You didn't dispute that?

12 MR. WAHL: Dispute what part of -- Objection.

13 Form. Foundation.

14 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Do you dispute -- I mean is

15 that what you were saying, that you saw it as a first

16 come, first serve opportunity and you disagreed, saying

17 it was unfair?

18 A Laurie said it was a first come, first serve

19 opportunity, and so that being said, that if you already

20 made a decision about who was going to get two of the

21 days before the email went out, then I do dispute it.

22 Q All right. But separate for me the fact that you

23 believe that Barbara Bressack and Deedra got

24 consideration for flex time before the email come {sic}

25 out. I mean were you also, in addition to that,

a as she blamed me for

11 unfairly approving Deedra's flex arrangement without it

12 going out to the entire group at once. 

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.727 Filed 08/01/16 Page 8 of 39
Electronically signed by Lauri Sheldon (001-336-738-9633) a6c3207c-a588-4746-8455-daabafd5685d

Monica Rogers

3/8/2016

248-608-9250

Tri-County Court Reporters

24 (Pages 93 to 96)

Page 93

1 office, so I can't tell you what she meant exactly,

2 because she didn't give me a response.

3 Q Did you ever understand what she said was --

4 A She never gave me a response.

5 Q She never told you what she thought was unacceptable

6 behavior by you; is that what you're saying?

7 A That's what I'm saying.

8 Q Okay.

9 (Exhibit 19 marked.)

10 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Take a look at that look at

11 Exhibit 19 and tell me if you've ever seen this

12 document.

13 A No.

14 Q Never seen it.

15 A Not until it was in the parts of the information that

16 Mr. Wahl gave me.

17 Q Okay. Ever seen any form of it?

18 A I had conversations about this, but I don't recall ever

19 having gotten a document.

20 Q Well, it looks like somebody wrote down "Debbie Saoud.

21 Monica Rogers sent a copy," but you're saying now that

22 you never saw it.

23 MR. WAHL: Wait. By the term "now" --

24 Objection to form. Go ahead.

25 MR. MIGLIO: I mean you're saying --

Page 94

1 MR. WAHL: She never said she had seen a copy

2 of it before and --

3 MR. MIGLIO: No, I mean --

4 MR. WAHL: -- your "now" implies that.

5 Objection to form.

6 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): You're saying today that

7 you've never seen a copy of this.

8 A Right.

9 Q Well, when you read it and when Mr. Wahl gave it to you,

10 what did you think?

11 A That it was --

12 Q I mean did you think that this -- what Monica Rogers put

13 down on this memo was false?

14 MR. WAHL: You mean what Monica

15 Jackson-Lewis --

16 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): I'm sorry, Monica

17 Jackson-Lewis. All right. Let me re-ask it. When you

18 looked at this document when Mr. Wahl showed it to you,

19 what was your reaction? Had you known that Monica

20 Jackson-Lewis took issue with your conduct?

21 MR. WAHL: Objection to form of the question.

22 MR. MIGLIO: As indicated here?

23 MR. WAHL: Which question do you want her to

24 answer?

25 MR. MIGLIO: Go ahead. You can answer.

Page 95

1 MR. WAHL: Well, objection to form. Which

2 question do you want her to answer? You asked her what

3 was her reaction and then you asked her, "Did you

4 think?"

5 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Well, what was your reaction?

6 Let's do it that way.

7 A Well, my reaction to it is that, first of all, I felt

8 this stuff was done all after the fact, because I never

9 saw the document. Secondly --

10 Q What do you mean "after the fact"? Like months later?

11 Years later? What?

12 MR. WAHL: You don't want to let her answer?

13 Go ahead.

14 THE WITNESS: I don't -- I know that this

15 didn't happen when this is dated, so that's what I'm

16 talking about after the fact.

17 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Well, when you say you know

18 that it didn't happen when it was dated, what does --

19 A Meaning that I didn't get the document and I didn't see

20 it until now.

21 Q All right.

22 A And is that the only --

23 Q No, are you saying the document wasn't prepared until

24 later or you're saying that you just didn't -- I mean I

25 don't understand. You said it was done after. What was

Page 96

1 done after?

2 A It wasn't given to me on this date --

3 Q Okay.

4 A -- is what I'm saying. And it's dated on the back that

5 on July 19th, 2010, it appears that something was sent

6 to me. I mean how would they send it to me? But okay.

7 Anyway, and I looked at failing to initiate the

8 scheduling, and I looked at that and I said, although I

9 didn't send her a formal appointment, I was meeting with

10 her every two weeks regularly. So I didn't miss any

11 appointments. It's just failed to put it on the

12 calendar. Not only did I not put it on immediately,

13 neither did Liz Mallory.

14 The second thing I looked at was challenging

15 the time sheets. Because I was an employee relations

16 and I know a little I bit about employee relations, we

17 were exempt employees and she was requiring us to do

18 time sheets, and I said, "By law that appears that time

19 is being tracked, which means you're if tracking time,

20 you've got to pay for overtime." She took exception to

21 that.

22 Communication that is not open and

23 constructive. When I make attempts to have one-on-one

24 discussions regarding an issue with me regarding

25 behavior or a decision that was made, you shut down by

 And it's dated on the back that

5 on July 19th, 2010, it appears that something was sent

6 to me. I mean how would they send it to me? But okay.

7 Anyway, and I looked at failing to initiate the

8 scheduling, and I looked at that and I said, although I

9 didn't send her a formal appointment, I was meeting with

10 her every two weeks regularly. So I didn't miss any

11 appointments. It's just failed to put it on the

12 calendar. Not only did I not put it on immediately,

13 neither did Liz Mallory.

14 The second thing I looked at was challenging

15 the time sheets. Because I was an employee relations

16 and I know a little I bit about employee relations, we

17 were exempt employees and she was requiring us to do

18 time sheets, and I said, "By law that appears that time

19 is being tracked, which means you're if tracking time,

20 you've got to pay for overtime." She took exception to

21 that.

22 Communication that is not open and

23 constructive. When I make attempts to have one-on-one

24 discussions regarding an issue with me regarding

25 behavior or a decision that was made, you shut down by

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.728 Filed 08/01/16 Page 9 of 39
Electronically signed by Lauri Sheldon (001-336-738-9633) a6c3207c-a588-4746-8455-daabafd5685d

Monica Rogers

3/8/2016

248-608-9250

Tri-County Court Reporters

25 (Pages 97 to 100)

Page 97

1 saying "whatever you want." And, you know, that may be

2 true in some instance when I have thought that I have

3 made my point as best as I could, I may have said,

4 "Whatever you want."

5 And not training Crucial Conversations after

6 you asked and agreed to do so during our 4-27 meeting,

7 you failed to even -- Well, the reason I didn't do it,

8 because there were no classes scheduled to do Crucial

9 Conversations, and as soon as the next class was

10 scheduled, I did do it.

11 Focusing on what other employees are doing or

12 saying, what this conversation -- this statement is all

13 about the fact that both Liz and -- Mallory and I were

14 both required to be at orientation at 7:30 every Monday.

15 Every Monday Liz would show up after 8 o'clock, and I --

16 that went on for about three or four months before I

17 said anything. I talked to Liz about it first, like I

18 always do talk to the person first, but when the

19 behavior didn't change, I talked to Monica, and I was

20 told I needed to concentrate on what I was doing rather

21 than someone else. So that's what that was all about.

22 So I looked at these and I said, you know,

23 there is some truth in these, but these basically don't

24 represent the truth, the full truth.

25 Q Why would Monica Jackson-Lewis write down all of these

Page 98

1 things if they weren't true about you?

2 A You have to ask Monica, because I don't know.

3 Q Well, so far from what I'm hearing is you said Amy

4 Schultz was not correct in her criticisms of you. You

5 said that, correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q You said that Rita Fields, what she supposedly said

8 about your presentation and bizarre behavior wasn't

9 correct.

10 A Well, that was what Laurie said. I didn't see anything

11 that Rita Fields wrote that. So I'm just -- Based off

12 of what I saw Rita wrote, that's not what she wrote.

13 Q So you also said Elizabeth Mallory, her summary of the

14 meeting saying that you were arguing or verbal exchanges

15 that extended the meeting, you said that was not

16 correct.

17 A I said that that wasn't correct for every single meeting

18 is what I said.

19 Q Did Monica Jackson-Lewis ever tell you that she thought

20 you were being insubordinate and acting unprofessionally

21 towards her in meetings?

22 A She -- What she said, this was at this last conversation

23 in 2010 when Laurie was in the meeting with us, she did

24 say something to that effect.

25 Q So what -- Do you remember exactly what she said?

Page 99

1 A I don't know exactly what she said, but she said that

2 she felt that basically by not doing Crucial

3 Conversations, that that was being insubordinate, and I

4 explained to her why I hadn't done Crucial Conversations

5 up to that point, based off the conversation that we had

6 with Laurie that was involved and the fact that I was on

7 the schedule and had done it. So we talked about that,

8 so we have had some conversations.

9 Q And did you understand from the conversation that she

10 wasn't pleased with your behavior and treatment of her?

11 A She did say that.

12 (Exhibit 20 marked.)

13 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Let me show you what's been

14 marked as Exhibit 20.

15 A Hm-hmm.

16 Q Now, this looks like this is the Employee Assistance --

17 the EAP referral form?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Have you seen this before?

20 A No, I haven't. Well, I saw it in some of the documents

21 that I reviewed, yeah.

22 Q Well, I thought you said you had seen an Employee

23 Assistance Program referral form and you were sure that

24 it was Laurie Jensen writing it, even though it was

25 Monica Jackson-Lewis' name on it. This is not that

Page 100

1 form?

2 A I think it was a different form.

3 Q You think or it is?

4 A Because one of them -- Let's see. I saw this form, yes.

5 Q Okay. And is this the form that you said, even though

6 it was Monica Jackson-Lewis' name on it, that you were

7 sure that it was Laurie Jensen?

8 A No.

9 Q No what?

10 A It is not the form.

11 Q Okay. Is there another form?

12 A I think there is. I saw something that was Laurie's

13 writing.

14 Q What did it look like?

15 A That was a -- I'm trying to think. It might have been

16 the referral to see the Dr. Bodnar for.

17 Q Most recently when you were referred EAP.

18 A Yes.

19 Q Okay. Well -- All right. So now you're saying that it

20 wasn't the referral in 2010 that you think Laurie Jensen

21 was behind; it was now the referral in 2015?

22 A I think Laurie Jensen was behind this one, because

23 Laurie Jensen incited that response from Amy Schultz

24 that was two years prior to this, at 2008, that Laurie

25 solicited that information from Amy so that she could

 saying "whatever you want." And, you know, that may be

2 true in some instance when I have thought that I have

3 made my point as best as I could, I may have said,

4 "Whatever you want."

5 And not training Crucial Conversations after

6 you asked and agreed to do so during our 4-27 meeting,

7 you failed to even -- Well, the reason I didn't do it,

8 because there were no classes scheduled to do Crucial

9 Conversations, and as soon as the next class was

10 scheduled, I did do it.

11 Focusing on what other employees are doing 

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.729 Filed 08/01/16 Page 10 of 39
Electronically signed by Lauri Sheldon (001-336-738-9633) a6c3207c-a588-4746-8455-daabafd5685d

Monica Rogers

3/8/2016

248-608-9250

Tri-County Court Reporters

26 (Pages 101 to 104)

Page 101

1 send -- so I could be sent to EAP.

2 Q Well, I know, but as you sit here and you look at

3 Exhibit 20, I mean when it says here, "Please write the

4 reasons why employee's being referred for EAP services,"

5 that whole paragraph has to do with the things that you

6 said Monica Jackson-Lewis brought to your attention --

7 well, let me -- Forget that. Withdraw the question.

8 Just tell me specifically on this form what is

9 it that makes you suspect that Laurie Jensen was behind

10 sending you for the EAP referral as opposed to Monica

11 Jackson-Lewis?

12 A The whole content of it, because I don't think it would

13 have happened without Laurie inciting that and

14 soliciting that information that she had indicated on --

15 that came from Amy Schultz.

16 Q Well, where is that referenced in this --

17 A It's not referenced in this letter, but all of -- that

18 letter came right at the same time, within a few days,

19 that Laurie solicited that information and Amy indicated

20 on that information that let me know. I'm willing to do

21 whatever you need to -- whatever you need me to do to

22 help make your case, and the case was, I believe, to

23 send me to EAP.

24 Q But don't you recognize the things that are identified

25 in here as the reasons, that those are reasons that

Page 102

1 Monica Jackson-Lewis brought to your attention?

2 A I think that this in itself would not have been

3 something to go to EAP about.

4 Q Okay. So if I understand what you're saying, you're

5 saying Monica Jackson-Lewis didn't have the wherewithal

6 or was somehow a puppet of Laurie Jensen and then was

7 just doing at it at Laurie Jensen's insistence?

8 A I do.

9 Q Okay.

10 A I do.

11 Q Hmm. Okay. So just go back for clarification. There

12 is nothing, no reference or anything, on Exhibit 20 that

13 suggests anything about Laurie Jensen soliciting

14 information so that the EAP referral could be made or

15 should be made. You're just saying you surmise that

16 that was the reason behind it, correct?

17 A I believe that is the reason. That is what's behind it.

18 Q Well, I guess the question that I have, then, is if you

19 thought this was all about Laurie Jensen, then I take it

20 you didn't think that you needed to correct the behavior

21 that Monica Jackson-Lewis was telling you was

22 inappropriate. Would that be fair?

23 A No, that's not fair.

24 Q So you did correct the behavior that Monica

25 Jackson-Lewis was telling you that you were exhibiting

Page 103

1 that was unacceptable?

2 A Say that again.

3 Q Did you make changes in your behavior that Monica

4 Jackson-Lewis brought to your attention as being

5 inappropriate?

6 A We had the -- The answer to that is after this EAP visit

7 that I approached Monica differently and we had a

8 conversation. Yes.

9 Q Why did you approach her differently?

10 A Because I went to Monica and I said to her that based

11 off of these conversations that she and I've had and

12 this breakdown in communication is that why -- I asked

13 her, I said, "Why are you falling for the same thing

14 with Laurie and allowing her to use you to do these

15 things to me when she did the same thing to you

16 before?", and when I was in employee relations I'm the

17 one who helped her not lose her job.

18 Q What did she say about that?

19 A And she says that, you know -- And I told her that I was

20 going to approach things differently with her, and

21 that's when I told her that I was going to be making

22 sure that she understood that I was in there to support

23 her.

24 Q What did she say in response to you saying, "Can't you

25 have see these are the same things she's doing to me

Page 104

1 that she did to you?"

2 A She just said, "Yeah," but that was it.

3 Q Wait. I want to know precisely what she said.

4 A "Yeah."

5 Q She said, "Yeah."

6 A Yes.

7 Q Okay. All right.

8 A Yeah.

9 MR. WAHL: Off the record.

10 (Whereupon a recess was taken at or about the

11 hour of 12:35 p.m., and the deposition was resumed at or

12 about the hour of 1:29 p.m.)

13 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Did you say earlier that you

14 helped Monica Jackson-Lewis not lose her job?

15 A Hm-hmm.

16 Q How did you do that?

17 A By providing support and coaching to her and -- when she

18 and Laurie were at odds.

19 Q When was that?

20 A 2005 or '6?

21 Q And what were her and Laurie at odds about?

22 A Monica had issue with one of the employees that reported

23 to her, and it was one of the employees that Laurie was

24 supporting, supported her, in every way as far as you

25 don't mess with Lamia or Karen.

 The answer to that is after this EAP visit

7 that I approached Monica differently and we had a

8 conversation. Yes.

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.730 Filed 08/01/16 Page 11 of 39
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Monica Rogers

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32 (Pages 125 to 128)

Page 125

1 problems getting along with?

2 A The only one that I ever -- that I ever had an issue

3 that was of concern was Elizabeth Mallory, and you saw

4 that.

5 Q How long did you hold the OHRD consultant position?

6 A From 2007 to 2013.

7 Q And when was the first time that you came to the

8 conclusion or belief that you should be considered or

9 being given the title of senior OHRD consultant?

10 A During discussions that took place between December of

11 2012 and January of 2013.

12 Q Okay. So -- But what I'm asking you is more generally.

13 When did it come to -- When did you conclude that you

14 should be considered doing the work of a senior OHRD?

15 Would that have been at that time period?

16 A That's when I determined that my title should be

17 changed, yes.

18 Q Okay. And you -- Tell me exactly why you determined, as

19 you said, that your title should be changed from an OHRD

20 consultant to a senior OHRD consultant.

21 A Because I was performing the duties of a senior OHRD

22 consultant.

23 Q Okay. What duties were they -- were there?

24 A Leading two or more system-level projects {sic},

25 coaching, leadership development, direct interactions

Page 126

1 with senior leadership, program design, the team

2 building re -- filling team building requests from

3 outside leaders, and leading the two leadership

4 programs.

5 Q Okay. Let me make sure I have them.

6 MR. WAHL: Can you read them slowly, Terry? I

7 apologize.

8 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Leading two or more system --

9 Okay. Hold on a second. Leading two or more

10 system-level projects. Is that one?

11 A Yes. Programs.

12 Q All right. Wait. I want to get the language correct.

13 Leading two or more system-level projects.

14 A Programs.

15 Q Okay. And when did you -- what were those two or more

16 system-level programs?

17 A Advanced Leadership Academy, Leadership Academy --

18 Q Hold on a second. Let me write these down. Two or more

19 system-level programs, and those were?

20 A Advanced Leadership Academy, Leadership Academy.

21 Q Okay.

22 A And Renewal.

23 MR. WAHL: And what?

24 THE WITNESS: Renewal.

25 MR. WAHL: Thank you.

Page 127

1 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): All right. When did you

2 start doing those functions?

3 A Renewal I started from the beginning in 2007 upon going

4 back to my position in OHRD, and the leadership program

5 started -- Let's see. I started the Leadership

6 Academy . . . The Leadership Academy took place 2011 or

7 late 2010, and the Advanced Leadership Academy started

8 upon a departure of Angeline, which was in 2011, I

9 think, too, or could be '12, 2012, when she left.

10 Q So as far as system-level programs, let's look at

11 Renewal first.

12 A Hm-hmm.

13 Q What exactly did you do for Renewal?

14 A I was responsible for promoting that program.

15 Q What does that mean?

16 A That means sending out communications to increase

17 participation in the program, responsible for getting

18 people to facilitate the program.

19 Q What does that mean?

20 A It means to facilitate the curriculum.

21 Q What does that mean, facilitate the curriculum? Getting

22 other people to teach the program?

23 A Yes.

24 Q And getting other people to add content to the

25 curriculum, correct?

Page 128

1 A Yes.

2 Q So you'd hire teachers or speakers for the program.

3 Not -- Strike that.

4 A Not hire.

5 Q You would gather speakers who would present in this

6 program.

7 A Along with me, yes.

8 Q Okay. And what were you presenting in the program?

9 A We all -- There are probably about 13 different modules,

10 so we traded off on which ones that we would do, but I

11 was qualified to do all of them. We all were.

12 Q And who put together the actual content for the program?

13 A Senn Delaney, along with Henry Ford Health System.

14 Q I'm sorry, who did you say?

15 A Senn Delaney.

16 Q Who's that?

17 A That's the company we talked about earlier.

18 Q Okay. And then you're the one that sent out fliers or

19 emails indicating that it was available and you were one

20 of the teachers in the program.

21 A Yes, and putting, you know, articles and monitoring to

22 encourage growth.

23 Q Okay. And Renewal was what, a two-day session, class,

24 group, what?

25 A Yes. Two days.

 And when was the first time that you came to the

8 conclusion or belief that you should be considered or

9 being given the title of senior OHRD consultant?

10 A During discussions that took place between December of

11 2012 and January of 2013.

 Tell me exactly why you determined, as

19 you said, that your title should be changed from an OHRD

20 consultant to a senior OHRD consultant.

21 A Because I was performing the duties of a senior OHRD

22 consultant.

23 Q Okay. What duties were they -- were there?

24 A Leading two or more system-level projects {sic},

25 coaching, leadership development, direct interactions

Page 126

1 with senior leadership, program design, the team

2 building re -- filling team building requests from

3 outside leaders, and leading the two leadership

4 programs.

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43 (Pages 169 to 172)

Page 169

1 Q After the sessions ended?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And that was your responsibility.

4 A Yes.

5 Q Now, who were the coaches? It says here, "Continued to

6 work with coaches." Who were the coaches?

7 A The coaches, I was one, so that would have been Barbara

8 Bressack, Mike Edge, Kris, Kathy Smith, Laurie, Kathy

9 Oswald, and Jennifer were all considered coaches.

10 (Exhibit 27 marked.)

11 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Let me show you what I'm

12 marking as Exhibit 27. What is this?

13 A This is the formal complaint that I provided to Derick

14 Adams.

15 Q Did somebody assist you in putting this together?

16 A Me? No.

17 Q Do you know the date that you prepared it? I mean what

18 is the date of this document?

19 A It's on the back. I gave it to Derick on March the

20 25th.

21 Q Okay. And when you put this together did you have notes

22 or documents to help you remember when these meetings

23 were and when these events occurred?

24 A Hm-hmm. Yes.

25 Q Okay. Did you tape record any of these conversations?

Page 170

1 A No.

2 Q And what was it that you wanted to occur as a result of

3 making this formal complaint?

4 A To be treated equitably, in an equitable way as my white

5 counterparts were.

6 Q Who were your white counterparts?

7 A It was all those listed on the third page.

8 Q Brian Robertson, Patti Sanburn, Carol Bridges, Tara

9 Boufford. Is that who your white counterparts were?

10 A Nicole Logan, Deb Tem -- It says Deb Temrowski, but

11 that's not the right name, but yes.

12 Q What about Deb Temrowski?

13 A It should have been Debbie Saoud.

14 Q So when you say "white counterparts," what exactly do

15 you mean by that?

16 A What I was only seeking is to be treated the same and

17 given the same considerations that had been given to the

18 other people that I have listed here.

19 Q Okay. So let's start with Debbie Saoud. What was she

20 given that you wanted to be -- Well, first of all,

21 Debbie Saoud. Let's start at the bottom and go up. Her

22 position was HR director?

23 A Debbie Saoud, yes. She's an HR director now.

24 Q Okay. And do you know how many -- how long she had been

25 in that position?

Page 171

1 A I'm not sure what your -- In what position? As HR

2 director?

3 Q Yeah, I --

4 A It was a recent promotion, so I don't know exactly how

5 long.

6 Q And so are you saying that she shouldn't have gotten

7 promoted?

8 A What I'm saying here is I think everybody deserves,

9 first of all, whatever they get. This is not personal

10 against any of these people. I'm not even thinking

11 about the names. I'm looking at the situation. What

12 I'm saying is for Debbie Saoud, for all of the job

13 descriptions normally to be a director, in the director

14 position, you have to have at least two years of

15 management experience. She had one. So the job

16 description may have been changed to preferred rather

17 than required. So with Nicole Logan, I loved Nicole to

18 death --

19 Q Well, let's just stay on Debbie Saoud, because I'm going

20 to ask you some questions. So you're saying the job

21 description may have been changed. I mean -- Strike

22 that.

23 Let's go back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but

24 what I understand you to say are these are people that

25 hold these positions, but yet they don't meet the

Page 172

1 requirements of the job, correct?

2 A As they were, yes.

3 Q All right. As they were at the time they were promoted

4 or --

5 A As the time that right before they were promoted they

6 were changed.

7 Q Okay. So Debbie Saoud is an HR director.

8 A Yes.

9 Q And you said she became an HR director, but before she

10 was promoted to an HR director the job description for

11 HR director may have changed so that the required

12 experience in a management position was changed.

13 A Right.

14 Q Okay. When you say "may," does that mean yes or does

15 that mean it might have been or you don't know or what?

16 A All I can tell you is that it was the whole conversation

17 on all of the four floors that that is what happened,

18 and obviously it was, because she got the job.

19 Q But what evidence do you have --

20 MR. WAHL: Wait. Wait. Counsel, let me just

21 interrupt. We made a request for all these documents

22 regarding these people, you denied all of them, and now

23 you're cross examining my client on what evidence do you

24 have. Well, if you produced the material, we'd be able

25 to -- everybody would be able to look at it and draw

 This is the formal complaint that I provided to Derick

14 Adams.

 I gave it to Derick on March the

20 25th.

 It was all those listed on the third page.

8 Q Brian Robertson, Patti Sanburn, Carol Bridges, Tara

9 Boufford. Is that who your white counterparts were?

10 A Nicole Logan, Deb Tem -- It says Deb Temrowski, but

11 that's not the right name, but yes.

12 Q What about Deb Temrowski?

13 A It should have been Debbie Saoud.

r Debbie Saoud, for all of the job

13 descriptions normally to be a director, in the director

14 position, you have to have at least two years of

15 management experience. She had one. So the job

16 description may have been changed to preferred rather

17 than required. So with Nicole Logan, I loved Nicole to

18 death --

19 Q Well, let's just stay on Debbie Saoud, because I'm going

20 to ask you some questions. So you're saying the job

21 description may have been changed. I mean -- Strike

22 that.

23 Let's go back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but

24 what I understand you to say are these are people that

25 hold these positions, but yet they don't meet the

Page 172

1 requirements of the job, correct?

2 A As they were, yes.

3 Q All right. As they were at the time they were promoted

4 or --

5 A As the time that right before they were promoted they

6 were changed.

7 Q Okay. So Debbie Saoud is an HR director.

8 A Yes.

9 Q And you said she became an HR director, but before she

10 was promoted to an HR director the job description for

11 HR director may have changed so that the required

12 experience in a management position was changed.

13 A Right.

 All I can tell you is that it was the whole conversation

17 on all of the four floors that that is what happened,

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44 (Pages 173 to 176)

Page 173

1 their own conclusions and make their own arguments, but

2 you've seen fit to say it's irrelevant.

3 MR. MIGLIO: Okay. Are you done now?

4 MR. WAHL: Yes.

5 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): All right. So you put these

6 names in this letter. You said they were your

7 counterparts.

8 A Hm-hmm.

9 Q White counterparts.

10 A They are.

11 Q You said you wanted to be treated like them, and now I'm

12 trying to figure out what basis you had to suggest that

13 these people got the positions in some way that was less

14 than how they should have gotten them.

15 A I know what all of the jobs descriptions as far as

16 directors said, because I've been working in HR for

17 30-some years, so I know at a director level that the

18 minimum number of years of experience is two. She had

19 one. That's all I'm saying.

20 Q So I want to know what evidence you have that the job

21 description for her position was changed before she got

22 it so that she satisfied the number of years of

23 management experience when she went into the job with

24 that job description.

25 A If it --

Page 174

1 MR. WAHL: She said "may have changed." She

2 didn't say it did, but go ahead.

3 THE WITNESS: It had -- Well, she got the job,

4 first of all, so if she didn't meet the requirements of

5 the job description, she wouldn't have it. So obviously

6 it must say one year or two years preferred.

7 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): But you're --

8 A Rather than required.

9 Q But you're saying "may." You mean to tell me that you

10 don't know the answer to that question?

11 A I'm telling you just what I said, is that it requires --

12 the job description say {sic} two years. She had one.

13 Q Okay. So -- In the HR director job description for the

14 position she got.

15 A Yes.

16 Q Okay. Where would you -- Where did you see that

17 position, that job description?

18 A I didn't see a job description.

19 Q Was this a job that was posted?

20 A I can't remember if it was posted or not.

21 Q Did you apply for it?

22 A No.

23 Q So do you know -- Did you see it posted with the number

24 of years of experience?

25 A No. But the people --

Page 175

1 Q When's the last time you saw --

2 MR. WAHL: Wait. But the people what? I'm

3 sorry.

4 THE WITNESS: All of the people in Talent

5 Selection were talking about this. These are the people

6 that do have access to the job descriptions and they

7 know who's applying for positions, so if they said --

8 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Who are "they"?

9 A The people in Talent Selection.

10 Q Give me some names.

11 A The whole Talent Selection team. I can't give you all

12 their names.

13 Q Well, give me the names of anybody who was saying that

14 it was changed or somehow it was changed for her, the

15 job description.

16 A What I'm just -- I'm not saying that -- What they were

17 saying is that that position required normally two years

18 and she got it with one-year experience.

19 Q Who?

20 MR. WAHL: He wants names.

21 THE WITNESS: Names of people in Talent

22 Selection would have been --

23 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Who said this. Not just

24 names of people in Talent Selection. People in Talent

25 Selection who said she got it without having the

Page 176

1 requirements, without meeting the requirement.

2 A Bronwyn Davis would have been one person.

3 Q Okay.

4 A Who else in Talent Selection?

5 MR. WAHL: I'm sorry, how do you spell Wyn

6 {sic} Davis?

7 THE WITNESS: B-r-o-n-w-y-n Davis.

8 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): And what did she say?

9 A We were having conversations about who was being

10 selected for these positions, and we talked about that

11 people were being placed in positions without the proper

12 number of years of experience, and Bron -- had the

13 conversation with Bronwyn and . . . Who else? It was

14 several conversations. Kevin Claxton.

15 Q What did Kevin Claxton say about Debbie Saoud?

16 A What did he say about the fact that -- the number of

17 years of experience based on . . .

18 Q Pardon?

19 A Number of years of experience.

20 Q What did he say about Debbie Saoud getting the position

21 with less than the number of years of experience

22 required?

23 A Basically that a lot of people are being promoted that

24 don't have the -- meet the requirements of the job and

25 the job descriptions are -- their requirements are being

 I know what all of the jobs descriptions as far as

16 directors said, because I've been working in HR for

17 30-some years, so I know at a director level that the

18 minimum number of years of experience is two. She had

19 one. That's all I'm saying.

 Well, she got the job,

4 first of all, so if she didn't meet the requirements of

5 the job description, she wouldn't have it. So obviously

6 it must say one year or two years preferred.

7 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): But you're --

8 A Rather than required.

9 Q But you're saying "may." You mean to tell me that you

10 don't know the answer to that question?

11 A I'm telling you just what I said, is that it requires --

12 the job description say {sic} two years. She had one.

13 Q Okay. So -- In the HR director job description for the

14 position she got.

15 A Yes.

16 Q Okay. Where would you -- Where did you see that

17 position, that job description?

18 A I didn't see a job description.

19 Q Was this a job that was posted?

20 A I can't remember if it was posted or not.

21 Q Did you apply for it?

22 A No.

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45 (Pages 177 to 180)

Page 177

1 changed.

2 Q So are you saying he just made that general statement or

3 he said about that Debbie Saoud?

4 A He made that general statement.

5 Q Okay.

6 A We were talking about Debbie in particular, but he made

7 that general statement.

8 Q So what about Bronwyn? Did Bronwyn make a statement

9 about Debbie Saoud getting promoted without having the

10 required years of experience?

11 A We just went over that. It says, yes, that we were --

12 many people on the floor were talking about these job --

13 these promotions. There was a lot of them that were

14 happening and --

15 Q I'm not asking you about many people on the floor. I'm

16 just focusing on who did you hear --

17 A I just told you --

18 Q -- in Talent -- listen. Let me finish. In Talent

19 Selection who said Debbie Saoud got a job even though

20 she didn't meet the required education requirements? I

21 understand they may say --

22 MR. WAHL: It wasn't education. It was

23 only --

24 MR. MIGLIO: Experience requirement.

25 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): I understand that they may

Page 178

1 have general conversations about people get promoted

2 without meeting the requirements. I want to know who

3 said that Debbie Saoud got promoted without meeting the

4 minimum experience requirements, if anybody.

5 A I just told you. The two people.

6 Q So what did Bronwyn say about Debbie Saoud?

7 MR. WAHL: We just went through this, counsel.

8 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Did she say that Saoud got

9 the job without meeting the minimum qualifications?

10 A What was said was that the same conversation pretty much

11 like what Kevin said, that people are being put into

12 positions without meeting the requirements of the job

13 description. It's like -- It always starts off, "Did

14 you know Debbie was being promoted to director level?

15 She's only got one year of management experience."

16 Q So are you saying that nobody specifically referred

17 to her; they just had general comments about people

18 getting promoted?

19 A No. I just told you they both said, "Did you" -- They

20 started -- The conversation started off casual

21 conversation, "Did you know Debbie's being promoted to

22 director?"

23 Q Okay. Who else said anything in Talent Selection?

24 A That's all I can recall right now.

25 Q Just so I'm clear, is it a matter of -- it's a

Page 179

1 requirement of having two years of management experience

2 or is it preferred, or what's the language in the job

3 description that she didn't comply with?

4 MR. WAHL: Objection. Best evidence. It's in

5 the job description. Go ahead and answer.

6 THE WITNESS: The last time I looked at the

7 director level it was required as indicated on that

8 chart that we reviewed back here, it will tell you what

9 it is.

10 MR. MIGLIO: And is a business --

11 MR. WAHL: You don't have to go back.

12 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Is a business partner not

13 considered to be a member of management?

14 A No.

15 Q It isn't.

16 A No.

17 Q Okay. What is the definition of management?

18 A First of all, to have people reporting directly to you.

19 I mean it's defined in that chart. That pretty much is

20 the definition of management.

21 Q Okay. All right. So Nicole Logan, what happened with

22 her?

23 A The position originally required a master's degree, and

24 she has a bachelor's.

25 Q Okay. And did the job description at the time she

Page 180

1 was -- First of all, you didn't apply for a senior

2 consultant compensation position.

3 A No, I didn't.

4 Q Was that posted?

5 A I don't know. I don't recall.

6 Q All right. And you're saying that the position when she

7 was given it required a master's degree preferred.

8 A That when she got it, the --

9 Q Yeah.

10 A -- position? Yes.

11 Q But she only a bachelor's degree.

12 A Yes.

13 Q So she, at best, violated the master -- the preference

14 for having somebody with master's degree.

15 A No. When it says "preferred," it's not required.

16 Originally it was the -- all of the consultant -- senior

17 level consultant positions were master's required, and

18 what I'm saying to you is it was changed to master's

19 preferred.

20 Q Who changed it?

21 A I don't know.

22 Q When was it changed?

23 A I don't know.

24 Q What about Tara Boufford?

25 A That was position where a degree was required and she

 So Nicole Logan, what happened with

22 her?

23 A The position originally required a master's degree, and

24 she has a bachelor's.

25 Q Okay. And did the job description at the time she

 was -- First of all, you didn't apply for a senior

2 consultant compensation position.

 All right. And you're saying that the position when she

7 was given it required a master's degree preferred.

8 A That when she got it, the --

9 Q Yeah.

10 A -- position? Yes.

11 Q But she only a bachelor's degree.

12 A Yes.

13 Q So she, at best, violated the master -- the preference

14 for having somebody with master's degree.

15 A No. When it says "preferred," it's not required.

16 Originally it was the -- all of the consultant -- senior

17 level consultant positions were master's required, and

18 what I'm saying to you is it was changed to master's

19 preferred.

20 Q Who changed it?

21 A I don't know.

22 Q When was it changed?

23 A I don't know.

 What about Tara Boufford?

25 A That was position where a degree was required and she

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46 (Pages 181 to 184)

Page 181

1 didn't have one.

2 Q So what does that mean? You say here, "Experience in

3 lieu of education"?

4 A Where are you looking?

5 Q On your letter next to "Tara Boufford."

6 A Oh.

7 MR. WAHL: Thanks.

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

9 MR. WAHL: Jesus.

10 MR. MIGLIO: She's got it in front of her, so

11 I thought we were stilling following. I said, "From the

12 bottom up."

13 MR. WAHL: Yeah, and then when she asked you

14 where you're reading, you say, "In your letter." I Was

15 just being sarcastic when I said "thanks." Go ahead and

16 answer.

17 THE WITNESS: Tara Boufford, experience in

18 lieu of education, so she didn't have the education,

19 so --

20 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): What was the education that

21 was required?

22 A A bachelor's.

23 Q And the EHR analyst position says that you need a

24 bachelor's degree required?

25 A Yes.

Page 182

1 Q So degree -- Unlike these other two, which you say the

2 job description was changed, because that's what I

3 understand you to say.

4 A Hm-hmm.

5 Q Logan's senior consultant compensation job description

6 was changed or she just didn't meet it?

7 A I don't know if it was changed or not. All I can tell

8 you is from based off of what the positions were, these

9 people didn't meet the original definition of a -- what

10 the requirements were. They got in the position, so the

11 only way that can happen is the job description has to

12 be changed.

13 Q Well, when you say "original," what do you mean? Going

14 back 5 years? 15 years? 10 years?

15 A I'm talking about prior to them being put in the

16 position.

17 Q But before you made these allegations, didn't you bother

18 to pull the job descriptions and see when and if and

19 what time frame they were changed?

20 A No, I did not. No, I did not.

21 Q All right. So Tara Boufford, you think the EHR analyst

22 position, job description, requires what?

23 A A bachelor's.

24 Q All right. And are you saying it was changed before she

25 got it to just have experience in lieu of education, or

Page 183

1 you don't know?

2 A Repeat that again.

3 Q I'm just saying, when Tara Boufford was promoted, do you

4 know whether she met the requirements of the job

5 description of EHR analyst?

6 A At the time that she was put into that position, I'm

7 sure that she probably met the job description

8 requirements.

9 Q So you're saying that the job description was changed

10 before.

11 A That's what I'm saying.

12 Q Do you know when it was changed before?

13 A I do not.

14 Q And what about Carol Bridges? What do you know about

15 her?

16 A I just know that she is a director and she doesn't have

17 a degree.

18 Q Was that position of director service excellence, was

19 that posted?

20 A I don't know.

21 Q Did you apply for it?

22 A No.

23 Q Do you know what her educational background is?

24 A Yep.

25 Q What is it?

Page 184

1 A She doesn't have a degree.

2 Q And what about Patti Sanburn? What is -- What's the

3 issue with Patti Sanburn?

4 A She doesn't have a degree.

5 Q Okay. Do you know how long she's been an HR director?

6 A She's been an HR director probably -- It was since Kathy

7 Oswald was there, so sometime between -- since --

8 between 2007 and now.

9 Q Okay. And so you think that she was just promoted to

10 that position or that's a retitling of her job or what?

11 A If it -- Even if it was a retitling, if it was higher

12 than what she had before, it would be a promotion, so

13 yes.

14 Q Do you know how many years of experience Patti Sanburn

15 had doing that job?

16 A No, I don't.

17 MR. WAHL: Doing that job as HR director?

18 MR. MIGLIO: Doing those job duties.

19 MR. WAHL: Well, different question.

20 THE WITNESS: I don't know if they changed for

21 her. I don't know.

22 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Don't know anything about

23 what she's doing?

24 A I know -- I'm looking at the title. I don't know what

25 her actual job duties are.

 I don't know if it was changed or not. 

 Logan's senior consultant compensation job description

6 was changed or she just didn't meet it?

 didn't have one.

 Tara Boufford, experience in

18 lieu of education, so she didn't have the education,

19 so --

20 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): What was the education that

21 was required?

22 A A bachelor's.

23 Q And the EHR analyst position says that you need a

24 bachelor's degree required?

25 A Yes.

 So degree -- Unlike these other two, which you say the

2 job description was changed, because that's what I

3 understand you to say.

 so the

11 only way that can happen is the job description has to

12 be changed.

 So Tara Boufford, you think the EHR analyst

22 position, job description, requires what?

23 A A bachelor's.

24 Q All right. And are you saying it was changed before she

25 got it to just have experience in lieu of education, or

 you don't know?

2 A Repeat that again.

3 Q I'm just saying, when Tara Boufford was promoted, do you

4 know whether she met the requirements of the job

5 description of EHR analyst?

6 A At the time that she was put into that position, I'm

7 sure that she probably met the job description

8 requirements.

9 Q So you're saying that the job description was changed

10 before.

11 A That's what I'm saying.

12 Q Do you know when it was changed before?

13 A I do not.

 And what about Carol Bridges? What do you know about

15 her?

16 A I just know that she is a director and she doesn't have

17 a degree.

18 Q Was that position of director service excellence, was

19 that posted?

20 A I don't know.

21 Q Did you apply for it?

22 A No.

23 Q Do you know what her educational background is?

24 A Yep.

25 Q What is it?

Page 184

1 A She doesn't have a degree.

2 Q And what about Patti Sanburn? What is -- What's the

3 issue with Patti Sanburn?

4 A She doesn't have a degree.

5 Q Okay. Do you know how long she's been an HR director?

6 A She's been an HR director probably -- It was since Kathy

7 Oswald was there, so sometime between -- since --

8 between 2007 and now.

9 Q Okay. And so you think that she was just promoted to

10 that position or that's a retitling of her job or what?

11 A If it -- Even if it was a retitling, if it was higher

12 than what she had before, it would be a promotion, so

13 yes.

14 Q Do you know how many years of experience Patti Sanburn

15 had doing that job?

16 A No, I don't.

17 MR. WAHL: Doing that job as HR director?

18 MR. MIGLIO: Doing those job duties.

19 MR. WAHL: Well, different question.

20 THE WITNESS: I don't know if they changed for

21 her. I don't know.

22 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Don't know anything about

23 what she's doing?

24 A I know -- I'm looking at the title. I don't know what

25 her actual job duties are.

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47 (Pages 185 to 188)

Page 185

1 Q So where did you hear that Patti Sanburn didn't somehow

2 meet the HR director job description?

3 A What I had heard was is that Patti Sanburn didn't have a

4 degree and was in an HR director position.

5 Q And is it your belief that the HR director position for

6 Debbie Saoud and the HR director position for Patti

7 Sanburn are basically the same job description?

8 A It may not be, because Patti Sanburn is HR director for

9 a different business unit. Well, you know what? We all

10 report to corporate, so it should be the same

11 requirements.

12 Q Do you know if it is?

13 A I haven't seen it, so I can't tell you. No, I don't

14 know.

15 Q And what about Brian Robertson? Do you know how he got

16 the OHRD consultant position?

17 A I do not know how he got it.

18 Q Do you know if he interviewed?

19 A I don't know.

20 Q Okay.

21 A It wasn't -- I know it wasn't anything posted when he

22 got the position.

23 Q So when you submitted this complaint what were you

24 looking to see happen?

25 MR. WAHL: You just asked her that a minute

Page 186

1 ago.

2 THE WITNESS: I just told you that.

3 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Well, I know. You said you

4 wanted to be treated similar as white, as you referred

5 to them, counterparts, but my question --

6 A I didn't just refer to them as white. They are white.

7 Q Okay. Well, you said you wanted to be treated the same

8 as your white counterparts.

9 A Exactly.

10 Q What did that mean to you?

11 A That meant exactly the same opportunities and exceptions

12 and provisions that were put in place that they got an

13 opportunity to take advantage of. I wanted those same

14 ones.

15 Q But tell me what that meant for you. Did that mean more

16 money? Did that mean --

17 A What that --

18 Q -- a title change? Did that mean a car allowance? I

19 mean what did that mean?

20 A That meant --

21 MR. WAHL: Object -- Wait. Hold on.

22 Objection to form. You want to know about the car

23 allowance or the money or the title? Which?

24 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): What did it mean?

25 A What it meant to me, Terry, really is all -- or

Page 187

1 Mr. Miglio. All it meant was is that if I'm doing the

2 job and I work damn hard on that job and, you know,

3 before you said, "Well, you're just doing this" and

4 "you're just doing that" and it's just like mundane

5 work. Trust me, it was not. Many of those meetings,

6 most of them I was there at six in the morning and

7 setting up and doing everything that I needed to do and

8 sitting in and doing a darn good job of it whenever I

9 needed to, as referenced and as reflected in my job

10 descript -- in my performance evaluation. Laurie did --

11 never denied that I was doing the work. She admitted it

12 herself.

13 Q But just because you're doing a good job and you're

14 getting high performance evaluations doesn't mean that

15 your job title should be changed. Would you agree with

16 me?

17 A That's not what was said in the job description. It

18 says that Monica took on the job responsibilities of a

19 senior consultant. That's what it says.

20 Q What did you want to happen? You wanted to --

21 A I wanted --

22 Q -- have your title changed; is that what you're saying?

23 A That's what I wanted. I wanted recognition for the work

24 that I was doing.

25 Q What did -- And that recognition was in the form of

Page 188

1 making you a senior OHRD?

2 A And compensation.

3 Q Do you even know how much money you were making compared

4 to the senior OHRD consultant? Do have any idea as you

5 sit here today? How much more should you have made?

6 MR. WAHL: Counsel, since you're raising your

7 voice, have you looked up the two salary grade levels?

8 They're percent difference.

9 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Do you know how much more you

10 would have made had you been granted a senior OHRD

11 consultant position?

12 A All I know is that the pay ranges are very different. I

13 do know that.

14 Q I didn't ask you that. Do you know --

15 A Well, how -- It's determined -- That you never know

16 until you get into a situation and you get promoted. I

17 don't know. I don't know.

18 Q Okay. So I take it that these are the only six examples

19 that you could come up of white counterparts that you

20 said were somehow given a break on the -- on their job

21 requirements.

22 A You need more than six? Isn't one too many when people

23 are being treated differently?

24 Q Well, the one name that's not on here is your name,

25 because you were performing at an OHRD consultant

 So where did you hear that Patti Sanburn didn't somehow

2 meet the HR director job description?

3 A What I had heard was is that Patti Sanburn didn't have a

4 degree and was in an HR director position.

5 Q And is it your belief that the HR director position for

6 Debbie Saoud and the HR director position for Patti

7 Sanburn are basically the same job description?

8 A It may not be, because Patti Sanburn is HR director for

9 a different business unit. Well, you know what? We all

10 report to corporate, so it should be the same

11 requirements.

12 Q Do you know if it is?

13 A I haven't seen it, so I can't tell you. No, I don't

14 know.

15 Q And what about Brian Robertson? Do you know how he got

16 the OHRD consultant position?

17 A I do not know how he got it.

18 Q Do you know if he interviewed?

19 A I don't know.

20 Q Okay.

21 A It wasn't -- I know it wasn't anything posted when he

22 got the position.

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48 (Pages 189 to 192)

Page 189

1 position. You didn't have the requirements for that job

2 either.

3 A Well, guess what, Mr. Miglio? Guess what? I was in

4 that job of a senior representative of OD prior to 2007

5 when I went on rotation. My job title never changed.

6 The only thing different is the title change. The

7 duties were the same.

8 Q You came back to a position, did you not, where people

9 were saying whether you would get it or not was still up

10 for debate.

11 MR. WAHL: Well, there's no question pending.

12 THE WITNESS: It wasn't --

13 MR. WAHL: Objection to the form. Look it,

14 he's not asking a question.

15 MR. MIGLIO: Isn't that correct? You came

16 back to the department when the job title changed.

17 MR. WAHL: Listen, you're just arguing with

18 her now.

19 MR. MIGLIO: Isn't that right?

20 MR. WAHL: Counsel, can we move on? You get

21 seven hours in one day. Let's finish up today.

22 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Isn't that correct?

23 A Repeat your question.

24 MR. WAHL: You're just arguing with her.

25 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): When you came back to the

Page 190

1 position it was no longer a senior OD position; it was

2 an OHRD consultant position that they grandfathered you

3 in.

4 A And all --

5 Q Correct or not?

6 A And when I came back to that position, everybody else

7 that was a senior rep of OD, their titles were changed

8 to senior rep of consultant, OHRD consultant.

9 Q How many of those people had degrees?

10 A I don't know.

11 Q All of them have degrees, didn't they?

12 A Okay.

13 Q Didn't they?

14 A I don't know. I never thought about even checking.

15 They weren't -- They're not in question.

16 Q So the amount of money that you missed out on, have you

17 ever figured out what that was?

18 A No.

19 Q Well, would it have satisfied you to have job duties

20 removed from you so that you weren't in jeopardy of

21 working as a senior OHRD consultant and not getting paid

22 at that rate?

23 A I was told that wasn't an option.

24 Q Who told you that?

25 A Barbara Bressack, my manager.

Page 191

1 Q How many people agreed with you that you were doing

2 senior OHRD level work among management?

3 A I never asked anybody in management. Obviously, Laurie

4 agreed. She put it in my performance eval that I was.

5 Q She agreed?

6 A Yes. She put it in -- She -- They're her comments.

7 Barbara Bressack agreed. She said, "We know you can do

8 the work, because you're doing it."

9 Q So what happened when you submitted this complaint?

10 A When I submitted the complaint -- You want me start when

11 I gave it to Derick?

12 Q Yeah, what did Derick do?

13 A He told me that he was going to investigate and get back

14 with me in a couple weeks, and then it went to -- He

15 kind of transitioned the whole investigation over to

16 Jolene and I met with her once on it, probably about a

17 month later. And then after I met with her, about a

18 week later after that she told me that it was going to

19 be turned over to Dan Champney for him to do the

20 investigation.

21 Q Okay. And did you interview with Dan Champney?

22 A I did.

23 Q Have you ever reviewed his notes from your interview

24 with him?

25 A Yes.

Page 192

1 Q And did you find them to be accurate or inaccurate?

2 A For most part, as I recall them, they are pretty

3 accurate.

4 (Exhibit 28 marked.)

5 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Let me show you what we

6 marked as Exhibit 28. So you've gone through this

7 before, I take it.

8 A Yeah.

9 Q I mean is there anything in here that was inaccurate

10 that he quoted you as saying that you didn't say?

11 A I think this is . . . It's pretty fair as to what I gave

12 him.

13 Q So let me ask you some -- If you're done looking, and

14 then I'll ask you a couple more questions.

15 A Okay.

16 Q In paragraph 9 he says he asked you about the fact that

17 in the first sentence of your letter of complaint you

18 allege discrimination and harassment and that -- he says

19 that you indicated that your reference to harassment

20 referred to past occurrences, not those contained in the

21 letter. Is that correct?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And what were the past instances of harassment?

24 A The past instances of harassment that I was referring to

25 here is that the 2008 incident that took place when

 When you came back to the

 position it was no longer a senior OD position; it was

 an OHRD consultant position that they grandfathered you

 in.

 he says

19 that you indicated that your reference to harassment

20 referred to past occurrences, not those contained in the

21 letter. Is that correct?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And what were the past instances of harassment?

24 A The past instances of harassment that I was referring to

25 here is that the 2008 incident that took place when

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49 (Pages 193 to 196)

Page 193

1 Laurie solicited information of two years prior to the

2 2010 incident to get me referred to EAP.

3 Q All right. And in paragraph 11 he says he asked you for

4 an explanation of why your claims of discrimination were

5 directed at Laurie Jensen --

6 A Hm-hmm.

7 Q -- and you indicated that Miss Jensen is the director of

8 the OHRD, not your current supervisor or even direct --

9 former direct supervisor, but I don't see an explanation

10 as to why your claims of discrimination were directed at

11 Laurie Jensen.

12 MR. WAHL: And your question is?

13 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Why was that the case? Why

14 were you accusing Laurie Jensen of age and race

15 discrimination, or were you?

16 A Yes, I was.

17 Q Okay.

18 A And am.

19 Q Okay. And in the letter you were accusing her, which

20 we've marked as Exhibit 27, of race and age

21 discrimination because you didn't -- you were performing

22 senior OHRD consultant work, but weren't given that

23 title, correct? That's what the discrimination was?

24 A The discrimination was that she treated me differently

25 than my white counterpart.

Page 194

1 Q Okay. Well, let's --

2 A You asked me. I'm just telling you. That's --

3 Q But basically what you wanted to be, if I understand you

4 correctly, the letter you wrote you wanted to be a

5 senior OHRD consultant, correct?

6 A What are -- No. What I wanted is to be treated equally.

7 Q But you -- What you're saying equally meant these people

8 were given positions without meeting the language of the

9 qualifications or having the qualifications modified,

10 right?

11 A Correct.

12 Q But ultimately what you wanted is to be promoted to a

13 senior OHRD consultant position, correct?

14 A That's the end product, yes.

15 Q Okay. So -- And you're accusing Laurie Jensen of

16 discriminating against you by not promoting you, right?

17 A I'm accusing her of discrimination because she didn't

18 give me the same opportunities as she did Brian

19 Robertson.

20 Q Okay. She doesn't even have responsibility over

21 virtually any of these people except for Brian

22 Robertson, right?

23 A I'm sorry?

24 Q She didn't promote Patti Sanburn, right?

25 A Oh, you're right. That's correct.

Page 195

1 Q She didn't promote Carol Bridges.

2 A That's correct.

3 Q She didn't promote Tara Boufford, correct?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q She didn't promote Nicole Logan.

6 A That's correct.

7 Q She didn't promote Debbie Saoud.

8 A That's correct.

9 Q But you were blaming her because she treated Brian

10 Robertson different than you.

11 A That is correct.

12 Q And you don't even know how Brian Robertson got that

13 job.

14 A It doesn't matter. The point is he was put into a job

15 that required a degree and he didn't have one.

16 Q Doesn't that sound remotely similar to you?

17 A Not at all.

18 Q Okay. All right.

19 A Not at all.

20 Q All right. So I guess we can distill the complaint down

21 to she put him into a position that -- where he didn't

22 have a degree that required a degree and you didn't get

23 the same break for the senior OHRD consultant promotion

24 that you wanted.

25 A Yes.

Page 196

1 Q All right. So at some point in time you must have asked

2 her, "Laurie, I think I should get promoted to a senior

3 OHRD consultant position," right?

4 A We had conversations about the senior OD position.

5 Q Okay. Well, I didn't ask you whether you had

6 conversation. I asked you if at some point in time you

7 said, "Put me into a position, please," right? "Put me

8 into the senior consultant position"?

9 A I didn't have that exact conversation, put me into the

10 position, no.

11 Q Did you say, "Laurie, I'm asking you to make me a senior

12 OHRD consultant"?

13 A We had conversation, several conversations, about me

14 being a senior consultant, yes.

15 Q We're never going to get done with this. I just asked

16 you if you asked her to make you one.

17 A And I'm telling you that no, I never said, "Laurie, put

18 me in" -- in those same words. I'm telling you the

19 words I used.

20 Q Well, when was the first time Laurie said to you, "No,

21 you're not going to be a senior OHRD consultant"?

22 A Basically, it was in the meeting that we had with Jan

23 Robertson -- Roberts -- Jan Harrington-Davis, sorry,

24 that took place.

25 MR. WAHL: The dates of your conversations are

 So at some point in time you must have asked

 her, "Laurie, I think I should get promoted to a senior

 OHRD consultant position," right?

 We had conversations about the senior OD position.

 OHRD consultant"?

"Laurie, I'm asking you to make me a senior

 We had conversation, several conversations, about me

 being a senior consultant, yes.

 that took place.

 Robertson -- Roberts -- Jan Harrington-Davis, sorry,

 when was the first time Laurie said to you, "No,

 you're not going to be a senior OHRD consultant"?

 Basically, it was in the meeting that we had with Jan

 Laurie solicited information of two years prior to the

2 2010 incident to get me referred to EAP.

 Okay. She doesn't even have responsibility over

21 virtually any of these people except for Brian

22 Robertson, right?

23 A I'm sorry?

24 Q She didn't promote Patti Sanburn, right?

25 A Oh, you're right. That's correct.

Q She didn't promote Carol Bridges.

2 A That's correct.

3 Q She didn't promote Tara Boufford, correct?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q She didn't promote Nicole Logan.

6 A That's correct.

7 Q She didn't promote Debbie Saoud.

8 A That's correct.

9 Q But you were blaming her because she treated Brian

10 Robertson different than you.

11 A That is correct.

12 Q And you don't even know how Brian Robertson got that

13 job.

 I'm accusing her of discrimination because she didn't

18 give me the same opportunities as she did Brian

19 Robertson.

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50 (Pages 197 to 200)

Page 197

1 in Exhibit 27, if you need it.

2 THE WITNESS: On January 23rd, 2013.

3 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Okay. So you're at Jan

4 Harrington-Davis' office with Laurie Jensen.

5 A Yes.

6 Q And you say this is the first time Laurie told you that

7 you shouldn't -- that she didn't think you should be put

8 in the position?

9 A That's the first time.

10 Q Okay. Point out exactly on this letter where you

11 reference that she said that to you.

12 A It's . . .

13 MR. WAHL: I'm sorry, you're referring to

14 something other than what she wrote on January 23, 2013,

15 the conver -- the five bullet points? I mean . . . What

16 do you want her to do?

17 MR. MIGLIO: You got an objection or you just

18 want to talk --

19 MR. WAHL: No, I --

20 MR. MIGLIO: -- and suggest to your client the

21 answer?

22 MR. WAHL: -- just want to try and move --

23 It's not suggesting of an answer.

24 MR. MIGLIO: Well, then you know how to make

25 an objection, I hope, so just make one. Otherwise, let

Page 198

1 her answer the question.

2 MR. WAHL: All right, fine. Objection. Form

3 and foundation. It's argumentative.

4 THE WITNESS: I don't see those exact words,

5 but this is the time when Jan told Laurie as a remedy

6 for the situation that there were a couple options that

7 we could do, and one was the change that required to

8 preferred, and Laurie says, "No, I'm not willing to do

9 that."

10 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Well, why wouldn't that be --

11 If you're saying that this person discriminated against

12 you by not giving you a senior OHRD consultant position

13 and she said that during the meeting, doesn't that seem

14 significant enough for you to put in the complaint?

15 MR. WAHL: Counsel, it says Jan stated she

16 doesn't support the change in title for Monica. I mean

17 what -- Well, you're right.

18 MR. MIGLIO: You haven't been paying

19 attention.

20 MR. WAHL: Yeah, it's on Laurie. You're

21 right. Go ahead.

22 THE WITNESS: This is what I gave to Derick,

23 so it's not in here, but in my formal -- and I told Dan

24 that this was a condensed version of the notes that I

25 had taken, so this is not all conclusive {sic} of

Page 199

1 everything that was submitted. It's -- I was told to

2 make this short and concise, so I did not put it here,

3 but I -- it is in the documentation.

4 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Miss Rogers, I've read this a

5 couple of times --

6 A Yeah.

7 Q -- and I don't see anywhere in here where you say --

8 A Not here.

9 Q -- that Laurie Jensen --

10 A It isn't.

11 Q -- the person that you're accusing of discrimination

12 told you that you shouldn't be a senior OHRD consultant.

13 MR. WAHL: Since Miss Jensen did like either

14 suggestion. Paragraph 17, Exhibit 28.

15 MR. MIGLIO: You want to get the Judge on the

16 phone or you want to continue do to that, really?

17 MR. WAHL: You know what? If you want --

18 MR. MIGLIO: Is that an objection?

19 MR. WAHL: Do you want to start

20 misrepresenting? You said you've gone through it

21 twice --

22 MR. MIGLIO: You have an objection you can

23 make as to form, right?

24 MR. WAHL: -- and you're suggesting -- You're

25 arguing with her. It says it right on the document.

Page 200

1 Why don't you read it a third time?

2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.

3 MR. MIGLIO: Read the question back.

4 (Whereupon the following portion of the

5 transcript was read as follows:

6 "Q Miss Rogers, I've read this a couple of

7 times --

8 A yeah.

9 Q -- and I don't see anywhere in here where

10 you say --

11 A Not here.

12 Q -- that Laurie Jensen --

13 A It isn't.

14 Q -- the person that you're accusing of

15 discrimination told you that you shouldn't be a senior

16 OHRD consultant.")

17 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): I mean, are you sure she ever

18 even said that to you? I mean I see in here that Jan

19 Harrington-Davis told you that you she didn't think you

20 should get the position. I see that a number of other

21 people commented on it, but I never see, other than what

22 you say that Laurie Jensen allegedly said, that I

23 support that you should be a senior consultant, I don't

24 see anything in here that says, "Laurie Jensen said I

25 shouldn't be a senior general consultant," according to

 So you're at Jan

4 Harrington-Davis' office with Laurie Jensen.

 On January 23rd, 2013.

 And you say this is the first time Laurie told you that

7 you shouldn't -- that she didn't think you should be put

8 in the position?

9 A That's the first time.

d Laurie says, "No, I'm not willing to do

9 that."

 it says Jan stated she

16 doesn't support the change in title for Monica. 

 Since Miss Jensen did like either

14 suggestion. P

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56 (Pages 221 to 224)

Page 221

1 the position that she should have been required to meet?

2 A Yes.

3 Q So do you know whether or not, as it says here, she had

4 experience in lieu of educational requirements?

5 A Hm-hmm.

6 Q Is that a yes or a no?

7 A I'm sorry. Yes.

8 Q She did have it?

9 A The experience?

10 Q Yes.

11 A Yes. I believe she did.

12 Q So are you saying she -- Well, let me go back, because

13 I'm not understanding this.

14 This is the post -- This is the blurb posting

15 for the position she got, correct?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And this is a shortened version of the job description.

18 A Yes.

19 Q But even the shortened version usually has the

20 educational and experience requirements, because when

21 people apply for the job they need to know that that's

22 what they're going to have to have, correct?

23 A Correct.

24 Q So when she got the job, is this the blurb that was in

25 place?

Page 222

1 A When she got the job, yes.

2 Q So couldn't she have qualified for the job even though

3 she didn't have a degree, but because she had experience

4 in lieu of education?

5 A Can I just tell you that six months before she got this

6 position Patrick Payne applied for the position and it

7 was not experience preferred, it was required. So

8 between the time he applied and six months later when

9 she got the position, it was changed to preferred.

10 Q Okay. So you're saying -- Which is what I'm trying to

11 get at. You're saying that this blurb was changed to

12 allow somebody to be selected who could satisfy

13 experience over the educational requirements.

14 A Yes.

15 Q Okay. But you're not saying that Tara Boufford didn't

16 meet the requirements of this description. You're

17 saying she did, but it was previously modified so she

18 could make it.

19 A Yes.

20 Q Now, do you know any other ER -- HER analysts who were

21 hired -- EHR analysts who were hired under this job

22 description?

23 A I don't.

24 Q So you can save us time. Is the first -- second page of

25 Exhibit 34 the same?

Page 223

1 A Yeah, it looks like it's a duplicate.

2 Q And you're saying you cut and pasted this off of

3 PeopleSoft.

4 A Yes. Off of the job code table.

5 Q Did you edit it at all?

6 A No, I didn't.

7 Q But you added the Tara Boufford on up.

8 MR. WAHL: She just said that.

9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, but the description of the

10 job I did not.

11 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Okay.

12 A I did not edit.

13 Q Then if you look at Patti Sanburn.

14 A Hm-hmm.

15 Q "JD changed to reflect the absence of degree." So

16 you're saying the job description was changed to reflect

17 the absence of the degree, right?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Do you know whether this was even the job description

20 that was in place at the time Patti Sanburn assumed the

21 responsibility of director of human resources?

22 A No, because I didn't -- I didn't see it in two --

23 whenever her position was changed, so no.

24 Q Well, I mean education says, "Requires a bachelor's

25 degree in human resource or related field or eight years

Page 224

1 of experience as a human resources manager."

2 A Right.

3 Q You don't contest that Patti Sanburn didn't have --

4 A No.

5 Q -- eight years of experience as a human resources

6 manager, do you?

7 A I do not.

8 Q So didn't she meet this job description?

9 A She met this job description, yes.

10 Q And you're saying this job description was changed.

11 A That's what I'm saying.

12 Q And you're saying that the previous HR director of human

13 resources - CCS said "bachelor's degree required" did

14 not have an exception for experience in lieu of

15 education.

16 A What I'm saying is this is the first -- she was the

17 first person in this HR director for CCS. It was a

18 manager position before, so they changed it to be a

19 director position, so it's new. So they created it with

20 preferred because she didn't have the degree. Every

21 other HR director in the system has a degree.

22 Q How long has she been in CCS?

23 A I have no idea.

24 Q Maybe 20, 30 years?

25 A It didn't matter for me. I've been in HR 30 years. It

 So do you know whether or not, as it says here, she had

4 experience in lieu of educational requirements?

5 A Hm-hmm.

6 Q Is that a yes or a no?

7 A I'm sorry. Yes.

8 Q She did have it?

 Do you know whether this was even the job description

20 that was in place at the time Patti Sanburn assumed the

21 responsibility of director of human resources?

22 A No, because I didn't -- I didn't see it in two --

23 whenever her position was changed, so no.

24 Q Well, I mean education says, "Requires a bachelor's

25 degree in human resource or related field or eight years

Page 224

1 of experience as a human resources manager."

2 A Right.

3 Q You don't contest that Patti Sanburn didn't have --

4 A No.

5 Q -- eight years of experience as a human resources

6 manager, do you?

7 A I do not.

8 Q So didn't she meet this job description?

9 A She met this job description, yes.

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Page 225

1 didn't matter for me.

2 Q Let's take a break.

3 A Okay.

4 (Whereupon a recess was taken at or about the

5 hour of 4:18 p.m., and the deposition was resumed at or

6 about the hour of 4:34 p.m.)

7 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): So at some time were you

8 informed that your position was not going to be

9 reclassified or upgraded or changed to a senior OHRD

10 position? I mean did anybody ever tell you that?

11 MR. WAHL: Asked and answered. Go ahead.

12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

13 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Who told you that?

14 A Laurie.

15 Q When did she tell you?

16 A In the meeting with Jan Harrington.

17 Q Okay. And that's on --

18 MR. WAHL: Speak up a little bit, Monica. I

19 can't hear you.

20 THE WITNESS: Okay. In the meeting with Jan

21 Harrington.

22 MR. MIGLIO: Okay. And that was on what date?

23 MR. WAHL: 27?

24 MR. MIGLIO: The 23rd.

25 MR. WAHL: No, Exhibit 27.

Page 226

1 THE WITNESS: January.

2 MR. WAHL: Excuse me. Exhibit 27.

3 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.

4 MR. WAHL: Was what -- I'm asking you.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes.

6 MR. WAHL: Okay. Thank you.

7 THE WITNESS: Yes.

8 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): And the date was January

9 23rd.

10 A Yes.

11 Q Now, at some point in time did you get a copy of

12 Mr. Champney's report of his investigation?

13 A Only within the last couple of days I got it.

14 Q You've never seen it before.

15 A No. They never -- I asked for it and I was told that I

16 wasn't going to be given one.

17 Q What were you told about the results of his

18 investigation?

19 A That he did a thorough investigation and he didn't find

20 any discrimination. He found that there was one person

21 that was improperly -- those are my words -- put into a

22 position, and that was Brian Robertson.

23 Q Did you ever tell Barbara Bressack that you thought that

24 she and Laurie Jensen were liars and that justice would

25 be served?

Page 227

1 A What I said was Barbara and I had a meeting right after

2 I had provided Derick Adams with this overview, and she

3 came out of the meeting, and within the next few days we

4 were doing an update and she said, "I don't know what to

5 say to you." And I said, "Why? What are you -- what

6 are you talking about?" And she said, "I just came out

7 of a meeting to find out all these things that you said

8 by me, that you said that I told you in order to get a

9 five on your performance evaluation that you had to be

10 performing the duties of the next level up." And I

11 said, "Barbara, you did say that." I said, "You said it

12 more than one time." I said, "Twice in your office we

13 had the conversation and one other time that you said it

14 right outside your door." And she said, "What I was

15 telling you is about that's what I did." And I said,

16 "We had the conversation specifically about me." So I

17 never called her a liar, but I said -- I challenged her.

18 When she denied having said it, I said, "Yeah, you did

19 say it."

20 Now, as far as what I said about Laurie, and

21 she says, "Well, you know my hands are tied. There's

22 only so much that you can -- that I can do. I know

23 you're doing the job. You can do it. You're already

24 doing the job." And so she says, "There's only so much

25 that I can do." And she says, "I don't know why Laurie

Page 228

1 is -- and Kathy are stuck on this." And I said, "Well,

2 even though Laurie tells -- told me these things and she

3 went back on it," I said, "but we both know that she

4 lies." And so I never was in a rage when I said it. We

5 were having an update meeting. My voice didn't get

6 loud. We were having a conversation to a person that --

7 like I would have with somebody that I talked to all the

8 time, because we had a good working relationship as far

9 as I knew.

10 Q So answer my question. Did you ever call Barbara

11 Bressack a liar?

12 A No, I did not.

13 Q Did you ever refer to Laurie Jensen as a liar?

14 A I did.

15 Q Okay. To Barbara Brussack --

16 A To Barb --

17 Q Bressack.

18 A Bressack, yes --

19 Q Okay. And did you ever say in the context of a

20 conversation with Barb Bressack that justice will be

21 served?

22 A I said, "The truth will come out and justice will be

23 served." That's what I told her.

24 Q So you said, "The truth will come out and justice will

25 be served."

I said, "The truth will come out and justice will be

23 served." That's what I told her.

24 Q So you said, "The truth will come out and justice will

25 be served."

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Page 229

1 A And that was around -- This conversation took place

2 around -- sometime in April. Not later than May.

3 MR. WAHL: Can you put a year on it, please?

4 THE WITNESS: Of 2013.

5 MR. WAHL: Thank you.

6 THE WITNESS: Between April and May of 2013.

7 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): And what did you mean by

8 "justice will be served"?

9 A Is that -- Because I was planning on taking it to the

10 EEOC, and that if the things didn't get straightened

11 out, you know, if I wasn't able to resolve it and I

12 figured that they would be -- the justice that I was

13 talking about is for them to make things right. That's

14 the justice I was talking about.

15 Q Now, did you go and file an EEOC charge?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And did you file an OFCCP complaint?

18 A Yes.

19 Q What did you complain to the OFCCP about?

20 A I basically provided them with the same write-up as I

21 did the EEOC of blacks being passed over for promotions.

22 Q And who were they?

23 A Who were --

24 Q When you said you provided them with the same write-up

25 of blacks being passed over promotion, who were the

Page 230

1 blacks that were being passed over for promotion?

2 A It put -- I included Patrick Payne, Kathy Buyck.

3 MR. WAHL: Kathy -- Wait, I'm sorry.

4 THE WITNESS: Buyck, B-y-c-y {sic}. Patrick

5 Payne, Kathy Byke, Kevin Claxton, Glen Sanford, and

6 Bronwyn Davis.

7 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Okay. So let's start with

8 how was Patrick Payne passed over for promotion?

9 A Because like he had applied for -- And these people came

10 to me. I didn't solicit them, first of all.

11 Q I didn't ask you that. Just how was he passed over?

12 A I'm just clearing that up. The way he was passed over

13 for promotion, according to him, he applied for the

14 position of EHR analyst and he was not given a position,

15 and he -- it was given to Tara Boufford, and he told me

16 he was told that he was off limits.

17 Q That he was what?

18 A Off limits.

19 Q What does that mean to you?

20 A It means that he -- Off limits means they couldn't hire

21 him for that position. I don't know. Be considered.

22 Q Where did he get that information, if you know?

23 A I would not know.

24 Q So he told you that he was told that he was off limits.

25 A That's correct.

Page 231

1 Q Okay. And so from that you concluded that he was passed

2 over because he was black.

3 A I did.

4 Q What did you use to reach that conclusion?

5 A Because he was black and the person that was put in that

6 position -- He was black with a degree that required the

7 position, and they put a white female in the position

8 who didn't have the degree.

9 Q Who was that?

10 MR. WAHL: We just went through this.

11 Counsel, come on.

12 MR. MIGLIO: The HER position?

13 MR. WAHL: EHR.

14 THE WITNESS: EHR.

15 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Who was that?

16 A Tara Boufford.

17 Q That got that. And she competed for the same job that

18 he did?

19 A Afterwards, yeah.

20 Q Listen to my question.

21 A Yes.

22 Q They were both applying for the same opening?

23 A It's the same job. I don't know if they applied at the

24 same time. I can't answer that. I don't know.

25 Q Were they both applying for the same position or was she

Page 232

1 applying for a sec -- a subsequent job?

2 A For that position.

3 Q Okay. So he says to you, "I'm off limits," and you

4 think that's race discrimination.

5 A I do.

6 Q Okay. And then who else did you say was on that list?

7 A Kevin Claxton.

8 Q And who's he?

9 A A black African-American master prepared who was

10 consistently denied a promotion to other HR positions.

11 Q And how do you know that?

12 A He told me. That's the only way I would know.

13 Q And what positions was he denied promotions to?

14 A One of them I know was the HR business partner.

15 Q Okay.

16 A That's the only one that I know about. I don't know

17 about any others.

18 Q But he told you, "I've been denied positions."

19 A That's exactly what he said.

20 Q And do you know who got those positions?

21 A I do not.

22 Q Who got the business partner position?

23 A I do not know.

24 Q Then how could you conclude that he was passed over

25 because of his race?

 What did you complain to the OFCCP about?

20 A I basically provided them with the same write-up as I

21 did the EEOC of blacks being passed over for promotions.

 Patrick

5 Payne, Kathy Byke, Kevin Claxton, Glen Sanford, and

6 Bronwyn Davis.

 When you said you provided them with the same write-up

25 of blacks being passed over promotion, who were the

Page 230

1 blacks that were being passed over for promotion?

2 A It put -- I included Patrick Payne, Kathy Buyck.

 how was Patrick Payne passed over for promotion?

9 A Because like he had applied for -- And these people came

10 to me. I didn't solicit them, first of all.

11 Q I didn't ask you that. Just how was he passed over?

12 A I'm just clearing that up. The way he was passed over

13 for promotion, according to him, he applied for the

14 position of EHR analyst and he was not given a position,

15 and he -- it was given to Tara Boufford, and he told me

16 he was told that he was off limits.

17 Q That he was what?

18 A Off limits.

19 Q What does that mean to you?

20 A It means that he -- Off limits means they couldn't hire

21 him for that position. I don't know. Be considered.

22 Q Where did he get that information, if you know?

23 A I would not know.

24 Q So he told you that he was told that he was off limits.

25 A That's correct.

 Okay. And so from that you concluded that he was passed

2 over because he was black.

3 A I did.

4 Q What did you use to reach that conclusion?

5 A Because he was black and the person that was put in that

6 position -- He was black with a degree that required the

7 position, and they put a white female in the position

8 who didn't have the degree.

 Kevin Claxton.

8 Q And who's he?

9 A A black African-American master prepared who was

10 consistently denied a promotion to other HR positions.

11 Q And how do you know that?

12 A He told me. That's the only way I would know.

13 Q And what positions was he denied promotions to?

14 A One of them I know was the HR business partner.

15 Q Okay.

16 A That's the only one that I know about. I don't know

17 about any others.

18 Q But he told you, "I've been denied positions."

19 A That's exactly what he said.

20 Q And do you know who got those positions?

21 A I do not.

22 Q Who got the business partner position?

23 A I do not know.

24 Q Then how could you conclude that he was passed over

25 because of his race?

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Page 233

1 A Because he had applied several times and he was more

2 than meeting the qualifications.

3 Q But unless you knew whether somebody who was more

4 qualified than him and got the job, how could you

5 possibly make that conclusion?

6 A You're asking me what I did. I'm telling you. Whether

7 or not it was rationale, I don't know. I'm just telling

8 you what I based it on.

9 Q So you're saying that there's a possibility that you

10 made irrational allegations against Henry Ford Health

11 System?

12 A No, I'm not make -- My allegations against Henry Ford

13 Health System was very sound and fact based.

14 Q Well, we were talking about what complaint you made with

15 the OFCCP. You said you told them that blacks were

16 systematically being denied promotion. So now we're

17 talking about the blacks that you claim were --

18 A Right.

19 Q -- systematically denied promotions.

20 A Right.

21 Q And you're saying that you're not sure whether your

22 accusation with respect to Mr. Braxton {sic} was

23 rationale?

24 A Hm-hmm. No.

25 MR. WAHL: It's Claxton, as I understand it.

Page 234

1 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Claxton?

2 A Yes. What I'm saying to you is not that it was -- It

3 was based on people that I knew that had applied for

4 positions, black folks that had applied over and over

5 and over for positions and didn't even get to an

6 interview phase.

7 Q All right. Who else would you say was --

8 A Bronwyn Davis. The same scenario.

9 Q Okay. And what position was Bronwyn Davis passed over

10 for?

11 A Another business partner position, from what I recall

12 that she told me it was.

13 Q And did she say, "I've been passed over for promotion

14 and I believe it's because of my race"?

15 A She did. Because she had also told me, just so you

16 know, that she had gone to the OFCCP as well.

17 Q Okay.

18 A And -- To make the same complaint.

19 Q And who did she get -- Who got her -- the job that she

20 wanted?

21 A I can't tell you that either.

22 Q Okay. And who else was in this group that you claim

23 was . . . blacks that were passed over for promotion?

24 A Kathy Buyck.

25 Q And what happened to Kathy Buyck?

Page 235

1 A Same thing. Master's prepared, with the system for a

2 long time, applied for numerous positions, and not even

3 able to get an interview.

4 Q Okay. Do you know what position she applied for?

5 A I do not.

6 Q Do you know whether African-Americans were hired for any

7 of the positions she applied for?

8 A I do not.

9 Q Do you know the qualifications of any of the people

10 that -- for the positions she applied for?

11 A If I don't know who they were, I don't know their

12 qualifications either.

13 MR. WAHL: Why are you shaking your head,

14 counsel? She's giving you testimony and you've been

15 doing that throughout the dep. I mean --

16 MR. MIGLIO: It's really none of your business

17 what I'm doing over here other than asking questions.

18 MR. WAHL: Well, no, you're commenting on

19 her --

20 MR. MIGLIO: I didn't --

21 MR. WAHL: Excuse me. You're commenting on

22 her testimony by the repeated shaking of your head. I'm

23 asking you to stop it. I mean you're acting as if, you

24 know, for some reason you're the judge here.

25 MR. MIGLIO: You don't need to worry about how

Page 236

1 I'm acting.

2 MR. WAHL: No, I need to know about the

3 integrity of my client's ability to testify, and sitting

4 there --

5 MR. MIGLIO: You know about the integrity of

6 your client's ability to testify.

7 MR. WAHL: Everytime she gives you --

8 MR. MIGLIO: And I'm getting a little bit

9 tired of you interrupting my examination.

10 MR. WAHL: Tough.

11 MR. MIGLIO: If you want to get the Judge on

12 the phone, we can resolve this.

13 MR. WAHL: You threatened that before. Get

14 her on the phone.

15 MR. MIGLIO: All right. Let's go.

16 MR. WAHL: I'm going to talk --

17 MR. MIGLIO: Come on.

18 MR. WAHL: -- about the fact that you're --

19 MR. MIGLIO: Let's go.

20 MR. WAHL: -- continually shaking your head in

21 response to her answers, and I'm asking you to stop.

22 Now, what do you want to get the Judge on the phone for?

23 MR. MIGLIO: Let's get the Judge on the phone

24 because I'm sick and tired of you making a bunch of

25 speaking objections interfering with my examination.

 Because he had applied several times and he was more

2 than meeting the qualifications.

3 Q But unless you knew whether somebody who was more

4 qualified than him and got the job, how could you

5 possibly make that conclusion?

 What I'm saying to you is not that it was -- It

3 was based on people that I knew that had applied for

4 positions, black folks that had applied over and over

5 and over for positions and didn't even get to an

6 interview phase.

7 Q All right. Who else would you say was --

8 A Bronwyn Davis. The same scenario.

9 Q Okay. And what position was Bronwyn Davis passed over

10 for?

11 A Another business partner position, from what I recall

12 that she told me it was.

13 Q And did she say, "I've been passed over for promotion

14 and I believe it's because of my race"?

15 A She did. Because she had also told me, just so you

16 know, that she had gone to the OFCCP as well.

17 Q Okay.

18 A And -- To make the same complaint.

19 Q And who did she get -- Who got her -- the job that she

20 wanted?

21 A I can't tell you that either.

22 Q Okay. And who else was in this group that you claim

23 was . . . blacks that were passed over for promotion?

24 A Kathy Buyck.

25 Q And what happened to Kathy Buyck?

 Same thing. Master's prepared, with the system for a

2 long time, applied for numerous positions, and not even

3 able to get an interview.

4 Q Okay. Do you know what position she applied for?

5 A I do not.

6 Q Do you know whether African-Americans were hired for any

7 of the positions she applied for?

8 A I do not.

9 Q Do you know the qualifications of any of the people

10 that -- for the positions she applied for?

11 A If I don't know who they were, I don't know their

12 qualifications either.

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60 (Pages 237 to 240)

Page 237

1 Let's go.

2 MR. WAHL: Here.

3 MR. MIGLIO: All right. Off the record.

4 (Whereupon a recess was taken at or about the

5 hour of 4:49 p.m., and the deposition was resumed at or

6 about the hour of 4:53 p.m.)

7 (Exhibit 35 marked.)

8 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): So let me show you what's

9 been marked as Exhibit 35.

10 MR. WAHL: Do we have a 34?

11 MR. MIGLIO: Yeah, we have a 34.

12 MR. WAHL: All right. We're on 35.

13 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): So do you remember being

14 interviewed by the Department of Labor?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And I notice this document that we received from you

17 isn't signed, but have you had a chance to review this

18 and does this accurately reflect your statements to the

19 compliance officer?

20 MR. WAHL: Sorry, Monica. Excuse me.

21 THE WITNESS: No problem. Yes.

22 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): On the second page, the

23 handwritten numbered paragraph number 22?

24 A Yes.

25 Q He's got you saying here, "The senior consultant now

Page 238

1 requires a master degree and the consultant must have a

2 bachelor's degree. They brought me back as a consultant

3 and not as a senior consultant." Do you see that?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Were you ever aware of any time when the senior

6 consultant position didn't require a master's degree?

7 A No.

8 Q Okay. And when you said to him, "They brought me back

9 as a consultant, not as a senior consultant," what does

10 that mean, brought you back? Brought you back from

11 where?

12 A From the rotation.

13 Q Okay. And that would have been, you said, in 2007?

14 A Yes.

15 Q But as I understand it, you're not claiming that in 2007

16 you should have been a senior consultant, or are you?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Yes, you're claiming that you should have been a senior

19 consultant in 2007?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Oh, I didn't understand that. Okay. So when you came

22 back and Bill Peterson arranged for this position, you

23 think you should have been given a senior consultant,

24 senior OHRD consultant position, not merely an OHRD

25 consultant position, correct?

Page 239

1 A I always wondered why, if I was a senior when I left,

2 why I wasn't brought back as a senior, so that was

3 always a question. That's what I -- That's my answer.

4 It was always a question is why.

5 Q All right. So are you saying you should have been or

6 you don't know whether you should have been brought back

7 as a senior OHRD consultant?

8 A What I'm saying is, based off of my discovery in January

9 16th meeting as defined --

10 MR. WAHL: Provide a year, please. January

11 16.

12 THE WITNESS: The January 16, 2013, meeting,

13 staff meeting, when it was indicated at that time that

14 the requirement for a senior consultant was two or more

15 system-level projects or programs, when I answered this

16 question, the answer was yes. At the time I was brought

17 back I did not feel that I should have been brought back

18 at a senior level, because I didn't have the

19 understanding of what was required to be a senior

20 consultant.

21 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): All right. So now as you sit

22 here are you saying that, knowing what you know based on

23 this January 16th meeting, that you think you should

24 have been brought back in 2007 as a senior OHRD

25 consultant as opposed to being brought back as an OHRD

Page 240

1 consultant?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Now, he asks you the question in paragraph 29, "So as I

4 understand there was no single promotion opportunity

5 where the job was posted and applications were accepted

6 and then a decision was made. It was more along the

7 lines of reorganization within our organization and job

8 titles changed? Is that correct?" And then you say,

9 "Yes and no. That was how they hired Cathy Lynn Smith

10 as a senior consultant."

11 Now, my question is what do you -- how was what

12 you were saying about Cathy Lynn Smith responsive to his

13 question as to whether or not there was a promotional

14 opportunity or whether it was a reorganization?

15 A So the way I understood his question was was there ever

16 an opportunity when no single promotion where the job

17 was posted and a person was hired into that position,

18 and that's why I said, yes, that it happened with Cathy

19 Lynn Smith. The job was posted. She applied. She got

20 the position.

21 Q When was that?

22 A 2012.

23 Q Okay. And that position was posted because somebody

24 vacated it?

25 MR. WAHL: Objection. Foundation.

 Were you ever aware of any time when the senior

6 consultant position didn't require a master's degree?

7 A No.

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Page 241

1 THE WITNESS: Let's see. Yes.

2 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Who was in it before Cathy

3 Lynn Smith?

4 A I think -- Who was in that position? Was it Barbara

5 Bressack?

6 Q Okay. And she got promoted to the next level up from

7 the senior OHRD consultant position?

8 A Barbara was promoted to manager.

9 Q And so then they hired Cathy Lynn Smith.

10 A Yes.

11 Q And did she have a master's degree?

12 A I think so.

13 Q We didn't talk about this Sammye Van Diver, or did we?

14 A We did not.

15 Q Okay. What happened -- What about Sammye Van Diver that

16 you claim was somehow discriminatory or that he or she

17 was passed over for promotions because of their race?

18 A Based off of conversations with Sammye, she said that

19 she was told because of the fact that she was a female,

20 and she added that because she was black that she wasn't

21 promoted to the --

22 Q What posi --

23 A Pardon me?

24 Q Go ahead. I'm sorry.

25 A To the -- She was applying for -- She's a manager and

Page 242

1 she was applying for the director position in her area.

2 Q Director of what?

3 A IT director position.

4 Q Do you know who got the position?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Who was it?

7 A It was a white male.

8 Q And do you know what his qualifications were?

9 A I don't.

10 Q Do you know his name?

11 A I don't.

12 Q Do you know if he was more or less qualified than her?

13 A I don't know the qualifications.

14 Q So you -- So this is just somebody that says, "I was

15 passed over."

16 MR. WAHL: Because she was black.

17 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): She said -- Did she say she

18 was passed over because she was black and female?

19 A That's what she said.

20 Q Did you talk to any of these people that are listed in

21 paragraph 36 --

22 A Hm-hmm.

23 Q -- before you went down to the Department of Labor and

24 identified them as individuals who were passed over for

25 promotions because they were black?

Page 243

1 A I did.

2 Q Who did you talk to?

3 A Each one of them. I was -- talked to them about this,

4 and after I went down I was told by the OFC, Mr. Louzon,

5 that -- to let them know that I had actually filed

6 because they would be contacted, and I did.

7 Q Okay. And do you know what the outcome of the

8 investigation was?

9 A Because I filed it at the same time as EEOC, the case

10 was transferred to EEOC.

11 Q Okay. And what happened with the EEOC's investigation?

12 A For?

13 Q Into these promotions, discriminatory promotions.

14 A They didn't look at any of these. They looked at it on

15 the individual basis.

16 Q And what happened?

17 A For me?

18 Q What happened to any of these they looked at, do you

19 know?

20 A I don't know.

21 Q Now, did you ever talk to Patrick Payne about

22 identifying him as somebody who was discriminated

23 against?

24 A I did.

25 Q And what did he have to say about that?

Page 244

1 A He was -- When I told him that I was going to, because

2 I did ask them, because I was told that some people may

3 be nervous about having their names, so before I did

4 that I talked to them, and he agreed. That's how I got

5 it. He gave me -- He's the one who gave me the

6 information about the EHR position. I wouldn't have

7 known otherwise.

8 Q Did he ever indicate to you that he didn't agree?

9 A No, he did not.

10 Q Did you ever call him at home to discuss your complaint?

11 A I called him on his cell. I don't know if he was at

12 home or not.

13 Q You -- Had you ever heard that he complained about you

14 bringing into all of -- bringing him into all of this?

15 A After the fact, yes, I did.

16 Q And how did you hear that?

17 A Through Derick Adams.

18 Q And what did Derick Adams tell you?

19 A He told me that people were upset that their names were

20 included.

21 Q Do you remember a conversation with Patrick where you

22 told him that you had named him in your complaint

23 because you knew that he had applied for a position in

24 Talent Selection in 2011 and was not interviewed for the

25 position?

 Each one of them. I was -- talked to them about this,

4 and after I went down I was told by the OFC, Mr. Louzon,

5 that -- to let them know that I had actually filed

6 because they would be contacted, and I did.

 Into these promotions, discriminatory promotions.

14 A They didn't look at any of these. They looked at it on

15 the individual basis.

 We didn't talk about this Sammye Van Diver, or did we?

14 A We did not.

15 Q Okay. What happened -- What about Sammye Van Diver that

16 you claim was somehow discriminatory or that he or she

17 was passed over for promotions because of their race?

18 A Based off of conversations with Sammye, she said that

19 she was told because of the fact that she was a female,

20 and she added that because she was black that she wasn't

21 promoted to the --

22 Q What posi --

23 A Pardon me?

24 Q Go ahead. I'm sorry.

25 A To the -- She was applying for -- She's a manager and

Page 242

1 she was applying for the director position in her area.

2 Q Director of what?

3 A IT director position.

4 Q Do you know who got the position?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Who was it?

7 A It was a white male.

8 Q And do you know what his qualifications were?

9 A I don't.

10 Q Do you know his name?

11 A I don't.

12 Q Do you know if he was more or less qualified than her?

13 A I don't know the qualifications.

14 Q So you -- So this is just somebody that says, "I was

15 passed over."

16 MR. WAHL: Because she was black.

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63 (Pages 249 to 252)

Page 249

1 Q And this is your signature that you -- on the bottom of

2 this document?

3 A Yes. This one is dated July 3rd, 2013. This is

4 actually the first one.

5 Q Okay. And it says here, "Since my complaint, my

6 employer changed my OHRD consultant job description to

7 include all of the senior level tasks so they would not

8 have to promote me to the senior level consultant

9 position." Do you see that?

10 A I do.

11 Q And the changing of the OHRD consultant job description

12 that's referred to in this charge that you filed, that's

13 the job description that came out of those meetings in

14 whenever it was when --

15 A Yes.

16 Q -- the OHRD consultant sat down and modified the job,

17 correct?

18 A Correct.

19 Q And it says here, "All of the senior level tasks were

20 included." What does that mean?

21 A That means to change it from the consultant to being

22 responsible for one program. It went to two or more.

23 Q Well, I guess what I'm asking you is it says "All of the

24 senior level tasks," and I was sort of thrown back by

25 "all." All on the senior consultant job description

Page 250

1 or . . .

2 A All of the ones that I was -- were completing before.

3 Q Was there any discussion or deliberation about modifying

4 the senior consultant job description?

5 A No.

6 Q So they were just looking at the consultant position.

7 A Correct.

8 Q And was there some discussion about looking at all of

9 the position -- job descriptions as a result of what

10 might have been the Beaumont merger?

11 A There was.

12 MR. WAHL: Objection to form. Foundation. Go

13 ahead.

14 THE WITNESS: There was -- I do recall a

15 conversation that that may happen, that all the

16 positions in OD would be looked at, depending on whether

17 or not we would merge with Beaumont.

18 (Exhibit 41 marked.)

19 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Now, let me show you what's

20 been marked as Exhibit 41 and ask you if you can tell me

21 what this is.

22 A This was the form that I completed when I saw Dr. Bodnar

23 for the EAP for the behavioral assessment.

24 Q And you got this from Dr. Bodnar?

25 A From his office, yes.

Page 251

1 Q He says here, "Visit requested for evaluation only," it

2 looks like.

3 A Hm-hmm.

4 Q "Recommend follow up with EAP."

5 A Hm-hmm.

6 Q Do you see that?

7 A I do.

8 Q Did you follow up with EAP?

9 A I never went back to the department, so no.

10 Q What did that have to do with following up with EAP,

11 though?

12 A Because it was a recommendation that Laurie made in her

13 request. Her original request was for EAP, and so he

14 said he was going to tell me -- He thought I was going

15 back to that same job, and so he recommended that I

16 follow up with EAP for support.

17 Q But this recommendation to follow up with EAP, as I'm

18 reading it, was a recommendation by the doctor, right?

19 A Based off of what he said. He said, "I see in this

20 request that" -- something about the original request

21 about EAP. He said, "And I'm just going to recommend

22 that you keep those appointments or make your

23 appointments with EAP," but I never went back to the

24 job.

25 Q I know, but what made you think that going back to

Page 252

1 the job -- Strike that.

2 What made you think that following up with EAP

3 was conditioned on whether you went back to your job?

4 A Because it all had to do. That was the reason that this

5 was happening was because of the job, so if I'm not in

6 the job, why would I need to go back to EAP?

7 Q And when you said that Laurie Jensen made the

8 recommendation that you follow up with EAP, where would

9 that be?

10 A I have no idea. This is based off the conversation I

11 had with Dr. Bodnar.

12 Q Now, what happened when you came back from the EAP

13 referral?

14 A Wait a minute. Not this case. In 2010?

15 Q Well, they sent you for a fitness for duty evaluation.

16 A Oh, see, this wasn't EAP. So after I came back, I went

17 home. This was occupational med, not EAP.

18 Q Okay.

19 A So --

20 Q So they sent you for a fitness for duty examination.

21 A Yeah.

22 Q Who told you you were going?

23 A Derick Adams.

24 Q What did he say to you?

25 A He said that we want to send you for a fitness for duty

 This was the form that I completed when I saw Dr. Bodnar

23 for the EAP for the behavioral assessment.

24 Q And you got this from Dr. Bodnar?

25 A From his office, yes.

 He says here, "Visit requested for evaluation only," it

2 looks like.

3 A Hm-hmm.

4 Q "Recommend follow up with EAP."

5 A Hm-hmm.

6 Q Do you see that?

7 A I do.

8 Q Did you follow up with EAP?

9 A I never went back to the department, so no.

 What did that have to do with following up with EAP,

11 though?

12 A Because it was a recommendation that Laurie made in her

13 request. Her original request was for EAP, and so he

14 said he was going to tell me -- He thought I was going

15 back to that same job, and so he recommended that I

16 follow up with EAP for support.

17 Q But this recommendation to follow up with EAP, as I'm

18 reading it, was a recommendation by the doctor, right?

19 A Based off of what he said. He said, "I see in this

20 request that" -- something about the original request

21 about EAP. He said, "And I'm just going to recommend

22 that you keep those appointments or make your

23 appointments with EAP," but I never went back to the

24 job.

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64 (Pages 253 to 256)

Page 253

1 eval.

2 Q What did you say?

3 A I said, "Okay. Fine."

4 Q All right. Did he explain why?

5 A No.

6 Q Did you ask him why?

7 A Well, they put me off because they told me that they

8 thought that I was a danger in a work place or a threat

9 to myself or others, so that -- it was clear why.

10 Q I'm just asking you what Derick Adams told you.

11 A I'm just telling you what he --

12 Q Well, when he told you you were going to EAP or when he

13 was having you sent for a fitness for duty examination,

14 he told you and you said, "Okay"?

15 A Right.

16 Q And then was there any other discussion between you and

17 him?

18 A No. He told me, "I will call you and I will get it set

19 up and I'll call you to let you know when your

20 appointment is."

21 Q Okay. And did you question him why at that time?

22 A No.

23 Q Is that because somebody else told you why you were

24 being referred?

25 A He had told me that people felt that I was a threat in

Page 254

1 the workplace.

2 Q In this conversation we've been talking about.

3 A All of this -- This was in -- When he took me off work,

4 all that conversation took place that I was going to be

5 off work and they were going to have me go for a fit for

6 duty. All that took place in the same -- at the same

7 time. So I knew why. He had just told me why.

8 Q So when you went for the fitness for duty examination

9 you saw Dr. Bodnar?

10 A Correct.

11 Q And Dr. Bodnar told you what, if anything, about

12 returning to work?

13 A He told me that you are eligible to -- "You're fit to go

14 back to work. I'm sorry that you had -- I don't know

15 why they sent you down here," and he apologized and that

16 was it. And he told me because -- about the issues of

17 going on with work, he said that, you know, to go for

18 support, you know, for EAP. This was all a part of the

19 whole thing.

20 Q He told you to go to support for EAP?

21 A No. He said he was going to recommend to follow up with

22 EAP as indicated on some previous documentation that he

23 had received for me to get this fit for duty.

24 Q So after the fitness for duty exam was done, you go

25 home. And when's -- Correct?

Page 255

1 A Yes.

2 Q When's the next time you hear from anybody at Henry Ford

3 Health System?

4 A It was probably -- It may have been a week afterwards,

5 because I went -- I think I heard from Derick to say

6 that he hadn't gotten the results back or something.

7 And so when he did get the results back he called me to

8 tell me he got the results and he wanted me to

9 schedule -- he wanted to a schedule a meeting for me to

10 come in to talk to him about it.

11 Q And did you schedule a meeting?

12 A He did. Yes.

13 Q And was it at his office?

14 A It was at his office at HAP.

15 Q Just the two of you present?

16 A And Jan Harrington was there also.

17 Q So tell me everything you can remember about what was

18 said during that meeting by anybody.

19 A So he told me that, "I got the results back, and it's

20 just like you said, there was nothing -- going to be

21 anything in it, and you are, you know, you're fit to go

22 back to work." And so we talked about -- He said,

23 "so -- I know that you asked me in the beginning to give

24 you examples of what you had done for us to make you

25 fit -- have this exam, and I didn't tell you anything."

Page 256

1 He says, "This is all new to us," something to that

2 effect. "We've never done this before and we made a lot

3 of mistakes." And he said, "but I talked to people and

4 people said that you hit the desk and they said that --

5 they brought up this thing about -- they said that you

6 took a baseball bat to a woman's car." And at that

7 point I said, "You know what? I am not here to defend

8 myself. Whatever they said, they said, and I'm not

9 going to go back and forth it's true, it's not true." I

10 said, "First of all" -- I'm thinking to myself, if I had

11 banged the a's car up, don't you think she would have

12 filed a police report if I had done that to anybody?

13 But anyways, so we continue to talk. So he

14 says, "So what are you going to -- What's going to

15 happen when you go back to work?" I said, "What do you

16 mean what am I -- what's going to happen?" I said, "I'm

17 going to go back to work and continue to do my job."

18 And he says, "Well, we feel that the people that you

19 work through -- with have already gone through enough

20 and they've been made to choose sides and we want to

21 offer you an opportunity, a once-in-a-lifetime

22 opportunity" -- No, he says, "You don't have to" -- He

23 says, "I don't know how much longer you're going to have

24 to work," and he says, "but this is a once-in-a-lifetime

25 opportunity for you to think about what it would take

 Well, they put me off because they told me that they

8 thought that I was a danger in a work place or a threat

9 to myself or others, so that -- it was clear why.

10 Q I'm just asking you what Derick Adams told you.

11 A I'm just telling you what he --

12 Q Well, when he told you you were going to EAP or when he

13 was having you sent for a fitness for duty examination,

14 he told you and you said, "Okay"?

15 A Right.

 He had told me that people felt that I was a threat in

 the workplace.

 What did you say?

3 A I said, "Okay. Fine."

 It was probably -- It may have been a week afterwards,

5 because I went -- I think I heard from Derick to say

6 that he hadn't gotten the results back or something.

7 And so when he did get the results back he called me to

8 tell me he got the results and he wanted me to

9 schedule -- he wanted to a schedule a meeting for me to

10 come in to talk to him about it.

11 Q And did you schedule a meeting?

12 A He did. Yes.

13 Q And was it at his office?

14 A It was at his office at HAP.

15 Q Just the two of you present?

16 A And Jan Harrington was there also.

"but this is a once-in-a-lifetime

25 opportunity for you to think about what it would take

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.747 Filed 08/01/16 Page 28 of 39
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65 (Pages 257 to 260)

Page 257

1 for you to retire and drop all -- in lieu of dropping

2 all charges," he says, "or we have somebody that's going

3 to go out on a maternity leave and we need -- and work

4 is going to only have one person to do all the work, and

5 we need help here, so that will be a position, an HR

6 business partner position that -- open here at HAP for

7 you." And I said, "Are those all the options?" I

8 said -- You know, and he said, "Yeah." And Jan said,

9 "Yes, those are the only options you have. Either take

10 this job or a settlement." And I said, "Well" -- Jan

11 said, "Do you think that you would be able to be loyal

12 to the company?" I said "Yes, I would." I said, "This

13 has nothing to do with the company." I said, "These

14 people that I filed the charge against just happen to

15 work here." I said, "I love Henry Ford. Otherwise, you

16 know, I wouldn't still be here." And she said -- She

17 said that, "Well, you know, we're going to give you an

18 opportunity" -- I said to them rather that, "I'm not

19 prepared to give you an answer today," and they said,

20 "Well, take a couple days to think about it and let me

21 know, and if you need more time, call me back and I'll

22 be willing to extend that time."

23 So I thanked them for the meeting, they thanked

24 me, and I left. And then after the first day that he

25 suggested, I called him back. I called him back and

Page 258

1 told him that after thinking about what my

2 responsibilities were at home with my daughter that's in

3 the college and stuff, I called him back and told him

4 that I was -- needed more time to think about it with my

5 husband and I would get back to him. So I -- the second

6 date I called him back and told him that I'd made a

7 decision to take the job, and he said, "You are? You're

8 going to take the job?" And I said, "Yeah." I said, "I

9 need to be able to provide Health Insurance coverage for

10 Desteni." So he said, "Well, when are you able to come

11 to work?" I said, "I can come tomorrow." He said,

12 "Well, why don't we make it -- your start date on a

13 Monday?" And I came on that Monday, I think it was

14 October the 14th, to start that position.

15 Q What position was that?

16 A HR business partner.

17 Q And during the time that you were considering what he

18 had said, what were the options that you were

19 considering precisely?

20 A That they gave me to consider was how much money that --

21 to come up with a dollar amount in order to leave the

22 job or if I wanted to take the business partner

23 position.

24 Q Wait. So now you're saying he said come up with a

25 number?

Page 259

1 A Yeah. He didn't give me a number. He told me, "You

2 tell us what number and we'll respond to that number,

3 and we'll see if we can meet you."

4 Q So you decided that, instead of giving him a number,

5 that you wanted to take the business partner position.

6 A I wanted to work is what I decided, and was my only

7 option of a place to work was in that business partner

8 role.

9 Q What are the requirements for the business partner

10 position?

11 A They gave me a job description. You mean educational?

12 Q Educational experience?

13 A I don't know what the experience is, but I'm sure that

14 it says a bachelor's degree.

15 (Exhibit 42 marked.)

16 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Let me show you what's been

17 marked as Exhibit 42.

18 A Hm-hmm.

19 Q And if I understand this document correctly, this is a

20 letter that you wrote to the compliance officer of the

21 Department of Labor?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Attempting to clarify some of the questions or

24 statements that were on his previous interview form that

25 we marked as Exhibit 35.

Page 260

1 A Yes.

2 Q In paragraph 14 there it says, "My overall

3 performance -- annual performance score are weighted as

4 follows," and then you have 35, 30, 15 for these various

5 jobs. Where did you get that from, a performance

6 evaluation?

7 A My manager and I together agreed that that's how the

8 position was weighted, my responsibilities were

9 weighted.

10 Q Would we see this on a performance evaluation?

11 A I would think so. Yes.

12 Q I mean when you say "we agreed," I mean is that

13 agreement reduced to writing in some way, shape, or

14 form?

15 A We have to put those weights on -- in the performance

16 measures, but I don't know when you print them off if

17 you will see those. That's what I'm . . .

18 Q Well, when you wrote this letter, how could you remember

19 what these were?

20 A Because it was my performance eval. I can see it. When

21 I go in there you can see it.

22 Q So it's on your performance eval.

23 A Yes, but what I'm saying to you is that I don't know if

24 when you print it off if it prints off the weighted

25 area, whether or not it just prints off goals.

"Well, take a couple days to think about it and let me

21 know, and if you need more time, call me back and I'll

22 be willing to extend that time."

we have somebody that's going

3 to go out on a maternity leave and we need -- and work

4 is going to only have one person to do all the work, and

5 we need help here, so that will be a position, an HR

6

 for you to retire and drop all -- in lieu of dropping

2 all charges," he says, "or w

 business partner position that -- open here at HAP for

7 you." And I said, "Are those all the options?" I you." 

8 said -- You know, and he said, "Yeah." And Jan said,

9 "Yes, those are the only options you have. Either take

10 this job or a settlement." 

 That they gave me to consider was how much money that --

21 to come up with a dollar amount in order to leave the

22 job or if I wanted to take the business partner

23 position.

24 Q Wait. So now you're saying he said come up with a

25 number?

 Yeah. He didn't give me a number. He told me, "You

2 tell us what number and we'll respond to that number,

3 and we'll see if we can meet you."

 the second

6 date I called him back and told him that I'd made a

7 decision to take the job, and he said, "You are? You're

8 going to take the job?" And I said, "Yeah." I 

 HR business partner.

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.748 Filed 08/01/16 Page 29 of 39
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66 (Pages 261 to 264)

Page 261

1 (Exhibit 43 marked.)

2 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Let me show you what's been

3 marked as Exhibit 43.

4 A Okay.

5 Q And tell me what this is.

6 A It looks like what I wrote up on the day that I was put

7 on leave.

8 Q So that would be what date exactly?

9 A That would be on September the 11th, 2013.

10 Q Okay.

11 A That's when I started.

12 Q And what about the subsequent entries? You got one

13 for --

14 A Yeah.

15 Q -- 17 --

16 A That was the beginning, so they're listed by dates of

17 what the conversations took place.

18 Q So would you have made these entries on this document on

19 the date that the conversations took place?

20 A Absolutely.

21 Q Okay. Where is this document -- Where was it generated?

22 A At home.

23 Q And did you have notes that you were relying on?

24 A I wrote them immediately after they happened.

25 Q So you typed this stuff in.

Page 262

1 A Yes, I did.

2 Q Now, this meeting that you had with Dr. Bodnar on

3 September 20th, 2013, I mean did you make notes right

4 when you were there?

5 A No.

6 Q Looks like it's a question-and-answer --

7 A No.

8 Q -- format.

9 A I made this at home.

10 MR. WAHL: It's on the last page. Not on that

11 page.

12 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): So if you look at the top of

13 page two, the first paragraph says, "Derick stated when

14 does this end? I stated it ends when the government

15 completes the investigation."

16 A Hm-hmm.

17 Q "Derick stated you haven't moved at all from your

18 original position. I stated this was something that I

19 about and will allow the process to work. In the end,

20 if the government doesn't find anything, then that's the

21 end of it."

22 A Right.

23 Q So what was the government investigation that you were

24 talking about?

25 A The EEOC claim.

Page 263

1 Q Okay. The EEOC claim that you hadn't been promoted.

2 A The discrimination claim.

3 Q What was the outcome of the investigation?

4 A Is that they're -- They -- No similarly -- The

5 comparisons were not exact.

6 Q So in the end the government didn't find anything.

7 A The letter says that, as the statutes state, that they

8 couldn't find anything that fit the statutes, correct.

9 Q So does that mean for you that's the end of it?

10 A It's not the end of it, because they did find cause on

11 the second one, so -- and when that's -- so that was it.

12 Q So what specific events or things that happened to you

13 do you believe was a result of retaliation for filing

14 the first EEOC charge -- Strike that. For complaining

15 about not being promoted and filing the first EEOC

16 charge?

17 A So repeat your question.

18 MR. MIGLIO: Read it back, will you?

19 (Whereupon the following portion of the

20 transcript was read as follows:

21 "Q So what specific events or things that

22 happened to you do you believe was a result of

23 retaliation for filing the first EEOC charge -- Strike

24 that. For complaining about not being promoted and

25 filing the first EEOC charge?")

Page 264

1 THE WITNESS: What specific things --

2 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Yeah. How do you feel you

3 were retaliated against for complaining about

4 discrimination?

5 A I was denied job assignments. My one-on-one meetings

6 were discontinued, so I wasn't included in meetings

7 where the other staff members were invited to. In

8 addition to that, I got put out and not allowed to come

9 back to my job when I for -- and all I did was come

10 forward with a complaint, and I feel that it was all in

11 retaliation because as a black woman I was not afraid to

12 voice my concerns and I made them known.

13 Q Okay. So when you say, "I was denied job assignments,"

14 what job assignments were you denied?

15 A Before all this happened with the Beaumont merger, since

16 I was responsible for the culture piece for the system,

17 there was a culture piece in team, work team that was

18 put together for Beaumont, and I started, I guess, in

19 December or Jan -- they started in January, I think it

20 was, is when we started having these conversations, and

21 at that time, you know, I was told I was going to be put

22 on the team, and it wasn't until -- in sometime in May

23 right before the Beaumont merger was canceled that I was

24 put on the team, but meanwhile everybody else in the

25 entire department had been put on Beaumont teams and

 I was denied job assignments. My one-on-one meetings

6 were discontinued, so I wasn't included in meetings

7 where the other staff members were invited to. In

8 addition to that, I got put out and not allowed to come

9 back to my job when I for -- and all I did was come

10 forward with a complaint, and I feel that it was all in

11 retaliation because as a black woman I was not afraid to

12 voice my concerns and I made them known.

 Before all this happened with the Beaumont merger, since

16 I was responsible for the culture piece for the system,

17 there was a culture piece in team, work team that was

18 put together for Beaumont, and I started, I guess, in

19 December or Jan -- they started in January, I think it

20 was, is when we started having these conversations, and

21 at that time, you know, I was told I was going to be put

22 on the team, and it wasn't until -- in sometime in May

23 right before the Beaumont merger was canceled that I was

24 put on the team, but meanwhile everybody else in the

25 entire department had been put on Beaumont teams and

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.749 Filed 08/01/16 Page 30 of 39
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67 (Pages 265 to 268)

Page 265

1 were participate -- attending and participating in those

2 merger meetings. I was not.

3 Q All right. So what teams are you saying you should have

4 been put on?

5 A I'm saying Beaumont merger team meetings for culture.

6 Q Okay.

7 A Yes.

8 Q And how long did these culture meetings go on for?

9 A They went on until the Beaumont merger was canceled.

10 Q Did you ever raise the fact that I'm not in a culture

11 meeting with anybody?

12 A I talked to Laurie about it.

13 Q And what did Laurie say?

14 A "I'm going to put you on. I'm going to bring you on.

15 When we get to another part I'm going to bring you on."

16 And that happened around in May, and I think that -- or

17 end of April maybe, but the culture team, the whole

18 Beaumont merger was off within a few weeks.

19 Q So who were the people who were on the culture team?

20 A Laurie and Amy, the ones -- and people from other

21 departments outside of HR.

22 Q So just Laurie and Amy Schultz were on the culture team

23 from your department.

24 A Yes.

25 Q And did somebody originally tell you you would be on the

Page 266

1 team before?

2 A Laurie did.

3 Q Okay. And how often did the team meet?

4 A A lot. Sometimes two or three times a week.

5 Q Okay. So how long did that period last when you weren't

6 going to those meetings?

7 A About five months or more.

8 Q And you wanted to be there?

9 A Absolutely.

10 Q Okay. What other assignments were you denied because of

11 what you claim was retaliation?

12 A My one-on-one meetings that continued and took place for

13 every other person in the department, mine stopped.

14 Every time I had one it got canceled.

15 Q And those one-on-one meetings were with who?

16 A With Barbara.

17 Q Okay. So your testimony is from what period of time

18 until what period of time did you not have one-on-one

19 meetings with Barbara?

20 A Oh, starting sometime probably from June or July until I

21 left I didn't have any.

22 Q June and July of what year?

23 A Of -- Sorry. June and July of 2013 through September

24 11.

25 Q And are they supposed to be monthly --

Page 267

1 A 2013.

2 Q -- weekly meetings?

3 A Weekly.

4 Q Your testimony is from July of -- June of 2013 till you

5 left the department you didn't have any one-on-one

6 meetings with Barbara?

7 A If -- I am thinking about this because I noted this,

8 because I talked to Patti about it and approx -- those

9 are approximate dates, yes.

10 Q No meetings, though.

11 A In June. Pardon me?

12 Q No meetings you had during that time period.

13 A I had a meeting which she -- with Laurie and Barbara the

14 day before I was terminated. They wanted me to give

15 them all the stuff that I was working on.

16 Q I'm not talking about that. I'm asking you about

17 one-on-one meetings.

18 A You said, "No meetings." You didn't say no --

19 Q I meant no one-on-one meetings at all during that period

20 of time.

21 A As far as I recall, that's correct.

22 Q Okay. Would you have kept one-on-one meetings on your

23 calendar, on your computer?

24 A Sometimes, but not -- since they were regular, they may

25 not have been on there.

Page 268

1 Q Were they at a regular date and time?

2 A Most of the time.

3 Q Okay. So how would you receive notice from Barbara that

4 they would be canceled?

5 A By email.

6 Q So you're saying that every week that you had a meeting

7 scheduled she sent you an email or told you they were

8 canceled.

9 A Or she wouldn't be there.

10 Q So you showed up and they weren't there.

11 A Yeah, she -- her office was like right next to mine.

12 Q And did you go to her like after she missed or canceled

13 the first couple of meetings and say, "Hey, what's going

14 on?"

15 A No, I didn't.

16 Q Did you have trouble getting along with her?

17 A Not at all.

18 Q Okay. Why didn't you ask her why she was canceling

19 meetings or not making them?

20 A At this time there was so much. I was so trying to just

21 do the right thing and not make waves. I figured if she

22 canceled it, it was canceled.

23 Q Wait. During what period of time were you trying to do

24 the right thing and not create waves?

25 A The whole period since January of 2013.

 I talked to Laurie about it.

13 Q And what did Laurie say?

14 A "I'm going to put you on. I'm going to bring you on.

 So who were the people who were on the culture team?

20 A Laurie and Amy, the ones -- and people from other

21 departments outside of HR.

22 Q So just Laurie and Amy Schultz were on the culture team

23 from your department.

 Yes.

 My one-on-one meetings that continued and took place for

13 every other person in the department, mine stopped.

14 Every time I had one it got canceled.

 And those one-on-one meetings were with who?

16 A With Barbara.

 Why didn't you ask her why she was canceling

19 meetings or not making them?

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68 (Pages 269 to 272)

Page 269

1 Q Well, you filed how many complaints during that period

2 of time?

3 A Three.

4 Q Okay. And that's not making waves?

5 A It's not, because it's my protected right to do so, so

6 no, it's not making waves at work.

7 Q I'm asking you what you said you were trying to --

8 A I was not -- What I do outside of work, I filed that

9 complaint, I was not making any waves at work. I was

10 not.

11 Q Well, you filed an internal complaint about not getting

12 promoted.

13 A Right.

14 Q And you filed another internal complaint about being

15 retaliated against.

16 A Yes.

17 Q Went to the OFCCP.

18 A Yes.

19 Q And you went to the EEOC twice.

20 A Yes, I did.

21 Q And that is not what you -- that's what you consider

22 as -- Well, strike that.

23 MR. WAHL: You know, and you're mixing up the

24 dates. She --

25 MR. MIGLIO: We don't need it, really.

Page 270

1 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): All right. So why didn't you

2 just go to her if you were so focused on doing your job

3 and say, "Barbara, let's have a one-on-one meeting"?

4 MR. WAHL: I thought she said --

5 THE WITNESS: Why would I do that if she -- if

6 I felt that was intentionally not meeting with me? Why

7 would I do that?

8 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): You had a good relationship

9 with her.

10 A I thought.

11 Q So you never asked her at any point in time why she

12 canceled the one-on-one?

13 A No, I didn't.

14 Q Okay. So we'll be able to look through your emails to

15 see emails from her where she told you the meeting was

16 canceled.

17 A You should be able to.

18 Q Okay.

19 A Or like I said, she wasn't there.

20 Q Or did you ever cancel them?

21 A Did I ever cancel a meeting? Not that I recall.

22 Q Okay.

23 MR. WAHL: If you're looking through her

24 emails, produce them to us, too, or give us access at

25 some point.

Page 271

1 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): So in addition to the

2 assignment that you said you missed, which was not being

3 on the culture meeting -- in the culture meetings, you

4 missed the one-on-one meetings with Barbara Briassard

5 {sic}. How else were you -- did you feel you were

6 discriminated against, retaliated against?

7 MR. WAHL: Asked and answered. She already

8 told you, but go ahead.

9 MR. MIGLIO: Anything else?

10 MR. WAHL: She already told you. Go ahead.

11 THE WITNESS: That's it.

12 MR. WAHL: She also told you she got removed

13 from her job.

14 MR. MIGLIO: You know, really.

15 MR. WAHL: Well.

16 MR. MIGLIO: Is that a form of objection that

17 I'm not familiar with under the rules or is that

18 calling --

19 MR. WAHL: Well, it's asked and answered.

20 MR. MIGLIO: -- coaching your witness

21 improperly?

22 MR. WAHL: You know, you might be right.

23 MR. MIGLIO: Okay. We'll see -- I know I'm

24 right.

25 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): So did you think that sending

Page 272

1 you to -- for a fitness for duty was retaliation?

2 A I did.

3 Q And who did you think was responsible for that?

4 A Laurie Jensen.

5 Q Okay. Anybody else?

6 A No.

7 Q And how's your relationship been with Derick Adams?

8 A Good.

9 Q Do you get along with him?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Has he been a good manager for you?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Do you find him to be truthful?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Do you find Barbara Bressack to be a truthful person?

16 A Yes.

17 Q What about Jan Harrington-Davis?

18 A I don't know her that well. I have {sic} worked that

19 close with her, so I can't answer that.

20 Q Do you have any idea, other than Patrick Payne and maybe

21 Laurie Jensen and Barbara Bressack, who else might have

22 had concerns about your behavior, that you might not be

23 safe or you might be somebody who would be a safety

24 risk?

25 MR. WAHL: Objection to form, but go ahead.

 So why didn't you

2 just go to her if you were so focused on doing your job

3 and say, "Barbara, let's have a one-on-one meeting"?

 So you never asked her at any point in time why she

12 canceled the one-on-one?

13 A No, I didn't.

 So did you think that sending

Page 272

1 you to -- for a fitness for duty was retaliation?

2 A I did.

3 Q And who did you think was responsible for that?

4 A Laurie Jensen.

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Page 277

1 putting down the things that I felt that I needed to

2 remember.

3 (Exhibit 46 marked.)

4 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): I show you what's been marked

5 as Exhibit 46.

6 A Okay.

7 Q What is this?

8 A My notes on my first day of work as a business partner

9 at HAP.

10 Q Why are you documenting your first day at work?

11 A Because I was documenting everything.

12 Q I see that. But was there something in particular that

13 you were --

14 A No.

15 Q -- making note of when you made these documents?

16 A No.

17 Q Have you made documents of other things that have

18 happened to you since October 14th of 2013? Because we

19 don't have them.

20 A I don't recall documenting anything else as it relates

21 to this case, no.

22 Q I mean anything that happened to you as a business

23 partner that you think is discrimination or retaliation

24 or anything like that?

25 A I don't know if I documented the one thing or not. I

Page 278

1 think that you have all the notes that I had.

2 Q So you made no documents after starting your first day

3 as a business partner concerning any events that you

4 considered to be discriminatory or retaliatory.

5 A There was, you know, one thing that happened, but I

6 don't think that I documented it.

7 Q What is that one thing?

8 A It was when I was required to take on the duties of a

9 full HR benefits person, payroll, time keeper and forego

10 vacations, work during the holidays, and for taking on

11 an interim position while we transitioned HAP Midwest

12 over to Henry Ford Health System, and I talked to Derick

13 about all these additional roles and I had asked him for

14 all these additional duties that I was performing would

15 I be -- would he consider an interim increase, and he

16 said that yes, that he would, and later after a couple,

17 probably a month or more when I asked him about it again

18 and he said that, yes, that I did ask about it and it

19 was denied.

20 Q So you were asking for an increase?

21 A For, yes, taking on a manager role.

22 Q What was the manager role you were taking on?

23 A We had to transition a non -- well, a company that Henry

24 Ford bought in 2011 that were currently on their same

25 benefit structure, pay structure, payroll, tracking

Page 279

1 system, and transition them over to our PeopleSoft

2 system and do, you know, benefit comparisons, integrate

3 that culture that they had over to Henry Ford and

4 basically be a one-person HR department.

5 Q How was that a manager role?

6 A Because it was a manager that was responsible for . . .

7 Q Who was the manager?

8 A It was originally Jolene Jacobson. It got transitioned

9 to me.

10 Q Well, HAP was integrating its -- I mean Henry Ford

11 Health System was integrating its human resources

12 function with Midwest, wasn't it?

13 A Henry Ford Health System, yes.

14 Q And Health Alliance Plan.

15 A Yes.

16 Q And you were assigned to handle the Midwest, right?

17 A Yes.

18 Q So are you saying that you just wanted a pay increase

19 for the time period that you were doing what you

20 considered to be a manager job?

21 A It was, because that's who was doing it before.

22 Q How long did you do that work for?

23 A I did that work for probably seven months.

24 Q Was that, in your mind, discrimination?

25 A No, that was -- You asked me was there any other notes

Page 280

1 that I had ever taken, and I said no, that I don't think

2 that I would have and -- that was related to this case,

3 and you said, "No, were there any other notes that you

4 were taking?" So I'm not saying it was related to

5 discrimination.

6 Q I thought I asked you whether or not you made any other

7 notes about what you considered to be discrimination.

8 A No, you didn't. I said to you that there was no other

9 notes as it relates to discrimination, and you said,

10 "Well, what about any other notes?"

11 Q Did you document this having to take on a manager role?

12 A That was my thing that I said to you. My response was I

13 don't believe that I documented, but I could have.

14 Q When you took over the business partner position did

15 your pay change from what it was as an OHRD consultant?

16 A No, it did not.

17 Q Since you've been in that position have you gotten any

18 increases?

19 A Yes. All business partners did.

20 Q Now, do you like your job?

21 A This job is very stressful, business partners. It's all

22 problems, so people are bringing problems and issues for

23 you to revolve, with unions and dealing with that, so

24 it's a very stressful position.

25 Q Do you like it?

 When you took over the business partner position did

15 your pay change from what it was as an OHRD consultant?

16 A No, it did not.

17 Q Since you've been in that position have you gotten any

18 increases?

19 A Yes. All business partners did.

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.752 Filed 08/01/16 Page 33 of 39
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75 (Pages 297 to 300)

Page 297

1 to discuss with African-American employees'

2 opportunities in the department?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Okay. Were you there?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Do you have notes of the meeting?

7 A No.

8 Q What was said at the meeting?

9 A We talked about Kathy Oswald led the meeting and the

10 African-Americans employees were the only employees that

11 were invited to the meetings, and it was -- they talked

12 about promotions, job opportunities, and respect for the

13 African-Americans, and specifically Patty Durr and I

14 both had conversations with her about our -- how we felt

15 that Laurie Jensen did not respect diversity and some of

16 the things that she would say, like "Why can't you guys

17 just do what I say without asking me questions?" And

18 Patty responded, said that -- she said to Kathy that,

19 "We're not slaves." And so it was a meeting about

20 respecting diversity and diversity sensitivity.

21 Q So is -- Are you saying that Patty Durr said this at the

22 meeting with Kathy --

23 A At the meeting.

24 Q And she specifically singled out Laurie Jensen.

25 A She said, yes, "my manager." That's who she was at the

Page 298

1 time.

2 Q Okay. And what did she say about her?

3 MR. WAHL: Say it. Go ahead.

4 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Said this in front of a group

5 of all these African-American employees?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And what precisely did she say?

8 A She said, to my recollection, is that, "Laurie wants us

9 to be people who don't have a voice. She has said to

10 us, 'Why can't you just do what I say without asking

11 questions?'" And Patti said that, "We're not slaves."

12 Q Okay. Did anybody respond to that?

13 A I responded in kind by saying or talking about the

14 difficulties that I had had with her as it relates to

15 when she said to me, "You girls always use that as a

16 cop-out" when I was telling her how racially insensitive

17 she was to say that.

18 Q Did you ever hear her say anything else racially

19 insensitive in all the time that you've known her?

20 A Who? Patty?

21 Q Laurie Jensen.

22 A No.

23 Q Do you feel that you were discriminated against because

24 of your age?

25 A I do.

Page 299

1 Q Okay. And how were you discriminated against because of

2 your age?

3 A On more than four -- at least four occasions my age or

4 retirement was referenced.

5 Q Okay. What were those four occasions?

6 A In a meeting with Laurie Jensen right before the meeting

7 that Jan and I had with her, and it's in -- is it 28?

8 MR. WAHL: It's in one of the documents.

9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, 28. I think that was

10 September the 20 -- I'm sorry, January 23rd. Right

11 before that meeting, which was a few days before, so

12 sometime between January 15th and January 23rd. It

13 should be right in here. It was -- Laurie had said

14 that, "I don't know about you" . . . Here it is.

15 January 17th is when she first said it. "I

16 don't know about you, but I feel like I only have one

17 good job left." Then when we met with Jan and we were

18 talking about the job, she made the same statement and

19 the same words, "I don't know about you, but we probably

20 only have one good job left." And then the twice when I

21 came back to work to talk to Derick and to Jan when they

22 were talking to me about retirement and to take a

23 settlement. So for those four -- on four occasions.

24 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): So when you say Laurie Jensen

25 said on, what, two occasions, "I don't know about you,

Page 300

1 but I have one good job left"?

2 A Yeah.

3 MR. WAHL: It says, "What I feel that at our

4 age."

5 THE WITNESS: Yes. "At our age we only have

6 one good job left."

7 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): What did you take from that?

8 A That I was -- should be close to retirement.

9 Q That's what you took from that?

10 A Yeah. At our age, one more job.

11 Q How old is Laurie Jensen?

12 A I don't know how old she is. I think she's -- I know

13 she is younger than me, but I don't know exactly how old

14 she is.

15 Q What if she was 45?

16 A What if. I'm not sure what your question is.

17 Q Well, does that suggest that "at our age" is the same

18 age as you? I'm just wondering what you took away from

19 that conversation. If she's 55, she's ten years younger

20 than you, does that make a difference in terms of what

21 you understood the conversation to be?

22 MR. WAHL: Objection. Form and foundation.

23 THE WITNESS: I guess I'm not understanding

24 what you're trying to get at.

25 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Well, you say that that

 "I don't know about you" . . . Here it is.

15 January 17th is when she first said it. "I

16 don't know about you, but I feel like I only have one

17 good job left." Then when we met with Jan and we were

18 talking about the job, she made the same statement and

19 the same words, "I don't know about you, but we probably

20 only have one good jobleft." And then the twice when I

21 came back to work to talk to Derick and to Jan when they

22 were talking to me about retirement and to take a

23 settlement. So for those four -- on four occasions.

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.753 Filed 08/01/16 Page 34 of 39
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76 (Pages 301 to 304)

Page 301

1 somehow suggested to you that you had one more good job

2 left.

3 A She said "we," not "I."

4 Q She said, "I don't know about you."

5 A Right.

6 Q So she said, "I don't know about you, but I have one

7 more good job left."

8 MR. WAHL: That isn't what she said, but go

9 ahead.

10 MR. MIGLIO: If you don't stop that.

11 MR. WAHL: That isn't what she said.

12 MR. MIGLIO: That's not an objection. That's

13 you testifying for the witness.

14 MR. WAHL: No, you're just wasting time. And

15 by the way, we're going to stop pretty soon. It's going

16 to be seven hours.

17 MR. MIGLIO: Okay. Well, I don't think you're

18 right, but go ahead. Take you chances.

19 MR. WAHL: We'll ask the court reporter to --

20 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): So the other comment was the

21 retirement by what Derick said?

22 A Yes. And Jan.

23 Q And they said you could retire?

24 A No. They said, "I don't know how much longer you plan

25 to work. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

Page 302

1 Maybe you want to think about, you know, being able to

2 retire and, you know, come up with a figure that we can

3 respond to for a settlement in lieu of dropping the

4 charges."

5 Q Okay. So is there anything else that you heard in the

6 way of age-related comments that you thought were

7 discriminatory?

8 A That's it.

9 Q So you said about age-related comments, so the question

10 is do you think that you were treated differently by

11 anybody because of your age?

12 A I do.

13 Q What and how were you treated differently because of

14 your age?

15 A Based off of the conversations that they had, if I had

16 have been 30, I don't think they would be saying how

17 much time do you have to work and use this as an

18 opportunity to retire if I had been 30, so yeah, I think

19 it had to do with my age.

20 Q I know, but what did they do to you because of your age?

21 A They offered -- They offered me a settlement to drop the

22 charges or -- and that was the option.

23 Q Okay. But did anything negative happen to you as a

24 result of your -- what you think is your age? I mean

25 because they said you can take a settlement or we'll

Page 303

1 give you this position, I mean did -- What I'm asking

2 you is how were you treated differently because of your

3 age?

4 A I was treated differently because of my age because of

5 the fact that they even mentioned it as an option, that

6 why don't you take the money and run, basically.

7 Q Well, wait a second. You filed --

8 A You're at retirement already.

9 Q You filed an EEOC charge, correct?

10 A Correct.

11 Q Do you remember signing a request to mediate the case

12 indicating that you were agreeable to discuss with Henry

13 Ford Health System --

14 A And I --

15 Q Let me finish.

16 A I'm sorry.

17 Q That you were interested in reaching a settlement out of

18 your EEOC charge?

19 A She told me you have to be agreeable to conciliation.

20 Q Well, I'm not asking you about conciliation. I'm asking

21 you when you first filed the charge.

22 A Right.

23 Q You signed an agreement to mediate before they've even

24 investigated.

25 A Right.

Page 304

1 Q Do you remember indicating your agreement to that?

2 A Yes, I do.

3 Q And you know it's optional?

4 A What?

5 Q You can pursue the charge or you can attempt to settle

6 with the employer.

7 A But the employer, as part of the conciliation agreement,

8 they attempted all that and they turned it down, so

9 Henry Ford had said -- basically said they weren't

10 interested in that. So why would I think that them

11 asking me the same second time had anything to do with

12 EEOC? I didn't connect those two.

13 Q We're talking about two different things. Do you

14 understand that there's an agreement to mediate at the

15 beginning of when you file the charge?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And then as the EEOC goes through its investigation,

18 later on they send -- if they determine there is

19 possible probable cause, then they prepare a

20 conciliation agreement.

21 A Yes.

22 Q Okay. So my question is do you recall, and we can have

23 the EEOC records, you indicating to the EEOC that you

24 were interested in mediating your case, settling it?;

25 A Yes.

 So she said, "I don't know about you, but I have one

7 more good job left."

 No. They said, "I don't know how much longer you plan

25 to work. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

Page 302

1 Maybe you want to think about, you know, being able to

2 retire and, you know, come up with a figure that we can

3 respond to for a settlement in lieu of dropping the

4 charges."

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77 (Pages 305 to 308)

Page 305

1 Q Negotiating it.

2 A Yes.

3 Q Okay. And then at some point in time in one of the

4 charges they produced a conciliation agreement.

5 A Correct.

6 Q Were you interested in signing that conciliation

7 agreement?

8 A That I wanted to conciliate? I was -- Yes, I was

9 interested in exploring that.

10 Q Okay. Did you ever see the conciliation agreement they

11 put together?

12 A Yeah.

13 Q And were you agreeable to it?

14 A No.

15 Q Okay. Why not?

16 A I didn't have a chance to deny it in the first place,

17 because Henry Ford turned it down, so it didn't -- it

18 wouldn't matter.

19 Q I didn't ask you that.

20 A I didn't get a chance to -- I didn't have the

21 opportunity to respond to it, in other words.

22 Q Well, didn't they talk to you before they sent it to

23 Henry Ford Health System?

24 MR. WAHL: Objection to form and foundation.

25 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): I mean you got a copy of

Page 306

1 conciliation agreement.

2 A I did.

3 Q And you didn't look through it and say, "Hey, I'm

4 interested in this" or "I'm not"?

5 A Based off of the conversation that I had with the

6 investigator, that that was part of the process that I

7 had to be willing to try to negotiate.

8 MR. WAHL: Do you have to go back through the

9 transcript to determine time of deposition?

10 MR. MIGLIO: She can tell you. You can ask

11 her to go back. Go ahead. See how much time we have,

12 if you want me to use it all up.

13 (Exhibit 49 marked.)

14 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Let me show you what we've

15 marked as Exhibit 49. Does that look familiar to you?

16 A Is that the same thing?

17 Q Yes.

18 A Yes.

19 Q So did you review it and indicate to the EEOC you were

20 agreeable to it?

21 A Yes. You know, I reviewed this, but we never got -- I

22 never had to sign it because it never got past Henry

23 Ford.

24 (Exhibit 50 marked.)

25 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): I show you what's been marked

Page 307

1 as Exhibit 50. So I think you said, and it's in one of

2 your statements, that you told Derick Adams that you

3 were okay going for the fitness for duty exam.

4 A I didn't have a --

5 Q And you weren't angry. You weren't upset.

6 A Yeah.

7 Q And then apparently at some time you must have changed

8 your mind and thought this was retaliation.

9 A I didn't have a choice. I had to go. It wasn't an

10 option to go or not. They weren't asking me if I wanted

11 to go for a fitness for duty.

12 Q Well, when he told you that you were going for a fitness

13 for duty exam did you tell him, "This is retaliation"?

14 A I told him it was ridiculous is what I told him.

15 Q Did you tell him it was retaliation?

16 A No, I did not tell him it was retaliation. The EEOC

17 told me that it was.

18 Q Did your husband own a business?

19 A Did he own a business? No.

20 Q Does he own a business or affiliated with a business

21 called Gold Coast?

22 A Oh, he used to.

23 (Exhibit 51 marked.)

24 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): I show you what's been marked

25 as Exhibit 51.

Page 308

1 A Hm-hmm.

2 Q Did you do work for that business?

3 A No.

4 Q What is this?

5 A What is what this?

6 MR. WAHL: By "this," he means 51.

7 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Exhibit 51.

8 A Oh, it looks like the same document that you looked

9 at -- I looked at earlier.

10 Q Well, it does, but it is different, and I'm wondering

11 where this one was produced and what it was used for.

12 Another complaint or what?

13 A It looks the same as one of these. Let me see. This

14 says July 8th I filed that first one. This may have

15 gone with the second complaint along with that notice to

16 Derick and Dan Champney.

17 Q So the answer is you don't know.

18 A It appears that this could have been used to go with the

19 complaint, the second one.

20 MR. WAHL: That's what she just said.

21 (Exhibit 52 marked.)

22 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Let me show you what's been

23 marked as Exhibit 52.

24 A Hm-hmm.

25 Q What is this about? Is this your handwriting at the

t you told Derick Adams that you

3 were okay going for the fitness for duty exam.

 And you weren't angry. You weren't upset.

6 A Yeah.

 Did you tell him it was retaliation?

16 A No, I did not tell him it was retaliation. 

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.755 Filed 08/01/16 Page 36 of 39
Electronically signed by Lauri Sheldon (001-336-738-9633) a6c3207c-a588-4746-8455-daabafd5685d

Monica Rogers

3/8/2016

248-608-9250

Tri-County Court Reporters

87 (Pages 345 to 348)

Page 345

1 Q Okay. So --

2 A We may not tell them who, but we tell them what.

3 Q All right. So you would have expected Derick Adams to

4 tell you that somebody said you made this statement

5 about breaking windows with a baseball bat --

6 A Absolutely.

7 Q -- that you acted bizarrely in a meeting, that you

8 said --

9 A Absolutely.

10 Q -- justice will be served and so forth.

11 A Absolutely.

12 Q All right. And that's the protocol that you would have

13 recommended managers to follow?

14 A Yes, it is.

15 Q And that would have been the protocol that you would

16 have recommended after looking at the Henry Ford Health

17 System policy?

18 A Yes. After applying the policy.

19 Q So when Derick Adams started having this conversation

20 with -- about this --

21 A Hm-hmm.

22 Q -- afterwards you said something to the effect you

23 weren't here to defend yourself. Do you remember saying

24 that?

25 A Yes, I do.

Page 346

1 Q And you said that in response to what?

2 A When Derick said, "People said you hit the table and

3 that you took a baseball bat to someone's car that you

4 thought was having an affair with your husband," and I

5 said, "That is ridiculous, and I'm not here to try to

6 defend what these employees said. That is so ridiculous

7 and" -- and that was basically it. And he started off

8 with the rest of the conversation.

9 Q See, now I didn't hear that as part of your answer to

10 Mr. Wahl's question or my earlier question. So now

11 you're saying you told Derick Adams that that was

12 ridiculous --

13 MR. WAHL: She said that both times.

14 MR. MIGLIO: Don't interfere.

15 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): As opposed to just saying,

16 "I'm not here to defend myself"? So now you're saying

17 you told Derick, "That's ridiculous. I've never done

18 that"?

19 A I told Derick when he was in his office and he was --

20 Wait a minute. Let me just --

21 Q Just answer my question.

22 A I told Derick that it was ridiculous.

23 Q Okay. And --

24 A When -- Because I told him, I said, "This is ridiculous"

25 when he first called me in to take me off-line, and I

Page 347

1 told him, I said that, you know, "I'm laughing," and I

2 said, "not because I think it's funny. I think this is

3 the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of." So yes,

4 I did tell Derick Adams that.

5 Q Why would you be laughing?

6 A Because it was the most ridiculous thing I've heard

7 that I've -- that somebody thinks that I'm a threat in

8 the workplace. I am an opinionated person. I am. I'm

9 very passionate about those things that I believe in.

10 But I have never had an outburst in a meeting. I've

11 never walked out and slammed the door or been in a --

12 acting in a threatening manner unless somebody thinks

13 that I'm talking at this level is threatening. I'm --

14 That's -- That's it.

15 Q Have you ever acted the way you just acted in a meeting?

16 MR. WAHL: Wait a minute. What do you mean by

17 "just acted"?

18 THE WITNESS: How was I just acting?

19 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Have you ever acted in a

20 meeting with colleagues the way you just acted?

21 A How was I acting? Tell me how that was, and I can tell

22 you yes and no.

23 Q Well, you know how you were just acting.

24 A No, I -- How did you perceive me to act?

25 Q I'm just asking you if you ever acted in the same manner

Page 348

1 that you did when you were giving me that answer.

2 A I don't know how I was acting, because you can't

3 describe it to me.

4 Q Didn't you tell Dr. Bodnar that you modified your

5 behavior after being sent to EAP the first time?

6 A Yes, I did.

7 Q That you learned to pause instead of getting, you know,

8 going forward and listening more and that kind of stuff?

9 A What I -- Exactly. To do less talking.

10 Q When you were doing what you considered to be senior --

11 Strike that.

12 Did anybody ever give you any advice to

13 complete your degree so you could be promoted or rise

14 through the ranks of Henry Ford Health System?

15 A I told you a long time ago Patrick Irwin talked about me

16 going back to school.

17 Q Do you know of anyone -- anyone -- who was in a

18 position, the job description or the job requirements of

19 which called for a master's degree when they didn't even

20 have a bachelor's degree? Anyone in any time in any

21 place at Henry Ford Health System. Do you know anybody

22 who occupied that kind of a position that required a

23 master's degree when they didn't even have a bachelor's

24 degree?

25 A Yes.

 Do you know of anyone -- anyone -- who was in a

18 position, the job description or the job requirements of

19 which called for a master's degree when they didn't even

20 have a bachelor's degree? Anyone in any time in any

21 place at Henry Ford Health System. Do you know anybody

22 who occupied that kind of a position that required a

23 master's degree when they didn't even have a bachelor's

24 degree?

25 A Yes.

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.756 Filed 08/01/16 Page 37 of 39
Electronically signed by Lauri Sheldon (001-336-738-9633) a6c3207c-a588-4746-8455-daabafd5685d

Monica Rogers

3/8/2016

248-608-9250

Tri-County Court Reporters

88 (Pages 349 to 352)

Page 349

1 Q Who was that?

2 A Patti Sanburn.

3 Q Patti Sanburn.

4 A And --

5 Q And her job required a master's degree?

6 A The HR director -- All HR directors require a degree.

7 She didn't have any.

8 Q I want to ask you about a master's degree, so that's

9 what I'm asking you.

10 A So those -- No, I don't -- I can't tell you that I know

11 exactly, except for Nicole Logan, and that position was

12 originally a master's degree and it was changed.

13 Q So now your lawyer's requested a number of documents,

14 lots of job description, personnel files and so forth.

15 So have you had an opportunity to look at these job

16 descriptions that we've produced?

17 MR. WAHL: You didn't produce any. I got one,

18 I think. One or two.

19 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): Have you had an opportunity

20 to produce --

21 A I have not.

22 Q To look at the job descriptions.

23 A I haven't seen those.

24 Q Okay. And I just want to know, you're standing by your

25 testimony that these people, these six or seven that

Page 350

1 we've been talking about -- I don't need to repeat them.

2 A Yeah.

3 Q That they did not meet the requirements of those job

4 descriptions that they -- over the positions they held

5 or that in order for them to get into those positions

6 those job descriptions were, in fact, altered. Is that

7 what your testimony is?

8 A That's what my testimony is.

9 Q And I also think that what you said, just to clarify,

10 you haven't looked at those job descriptions; that's

11 just a matter of what your general knowledge is for an

12 HR director and so forth, correct?

13 A Correct.

14 Q All right. I don't have anything else.

15 MR. WAHL: I just have a follow up.

16 RE-EXAMINATION

17 BY MR. WAHL:

18 Q You've produced your notes from your meeting with Derick

19 Adams from September 11 of 2013, did you not?

20 A Yes.

21 Q You produced them months ago, correct?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And you wrote in your notes -- And you understood that

24 these documents were being produced to Mr. Miglio,

25 correct?

Page 351

1 A Yes.

2 Q And you wrote in your notes for what occurred on

3 September 11 of 2013, "Derick stated that you know we

4 have a zero tolerance for violence. I stated, wow, you

5 have got to be kidding." Did you write that?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Is that what you said?

8 A Yes.

9 Q All right. So you didn't use the word "ridiculous."

10 You told him "You've got to be kidding."

11 A Right.

12 Q And he's had this document for months now and suggested

13 he's been misled somehow by your testimony, right?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Nothing further.

16 RE-EXAMINATION

17 BY MR. MIGLIO:

18 Q Wait. You said "wow" in response to him saying, "We

19 have a zero tolerance for anything"? That's what you

20 were saying wow about?

21 A That he was taking me off work because of violence in

22 the workplace.

23 Q When you were receiving food stamps after you went back

24 to work --

25 A Hm-hmm.

Page 352

1 Q -- each time you receive an allotment of food stamps you

2 have to sign a certification that you meet the standards

3 for receiving food stamps, don't you?

4 MR. WAHL: This goes beyond the scope of

5 direct.

6 THE WITNESS: I'm -- I'm not sure if you have

7 to sign -- To use the food stamp?

8 Q (Continuing by Mr. Miglio): No, to receive the food

9 stamp, to be issued a food stamp, you have to sign a

10 government certification indicating that you meet the

11 qualifications for receiving --

12 A I don't remember that part. I don't think you'd sign it

13 each time.

14 Q Well, you had to verify to the government that you

15 weren't working in order to receive food stamps.

16 A I told you that. I told you that I said that I

17 didn't -- I told him that -- I told you that I told them

18 that I didn't admit to them that I was working, so I

19 admitted that.

20 Q Well, I'm asking you a different question.

21 A What's the question?

22 Q Didn't you lie to them that you were -- about you not

23 working?

24 A Yes, I did.

25 Q I don't have anything else.

 Who was that?

2 A Patti Sanburn.

3 Q Patti Sanburn.

4 A And --

5 Q And her job required a master's degree?

6 A The HR director -- All HR directors require a degree.

7 She didn't have any.

8 Q I want to ask you about a master's degree, so that's

9 what I'm asking you.

10 A So those -- No, I don't -

Case 2:15-cv-12312-MOB-EAS ECF No. 48-2, PageID.757 Filed 08/01/16 Page 38 of 39
Electronically signed by Lauri Sheldon (001-336-738-9633) a6c3207c-a588-4746-8455-daabafd5685d

Monica Rogers

3/8/2016

248-608-9250

Tri-County Court Reporters

89 (Pages 353 to 354)

Page 353

1 MR. WAHL: I have nothing further. Thanks,

2 Lauri.

3 (Whereupon the deposition was concluded at or

4 about the hour of 7:57 p.m.)

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Page 354

1 STATE OF MICHIGAN )

 ) ss:

2 COUNTY OF MACOMB )

3

4

5 I hereby certify that the foregoing attached

6 pages are a full and complete transcript of the

7 proceedings held on the date and at the place

8 hereinbefore set forth. I reported stenographically

9 the proceedings held in the matter hereinbefore set

10 forth, and the testimony so reported was

11 subsequently transcribed under my direction and

12 supervision, and the foregoing is a full, true and;

13 accurate transcript of my original stenotype notes.

14

15 _________________________________

16 Lauri A. Sheldon CSR-4045,RPR

17

18

Notary Public

19 Macomb County, Michigan

My Commission Expires:

20 February 8, 2022

21

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25

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