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56–148 PDF 2010

S. Hrg. 111–568 

NOMINATION OF CARYN A. WAGNER 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

OF THE

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

NOMINATION OF CARYN A. WAGNER TO BE UNDER SECRETARY FOR 

INTELLIGENCE AND ANALYSIS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND 

SECURITY 

DECEMBER 3, 2009 

Available via http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/index.html 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs 

( 


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COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas 

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana 

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, Missouri 

JON TESTER, Montana 

ROLAND W. BURRIS, Illinois 

PAUL G. KIRK, JR., Massachusetts 

SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

JOHN MCCAIN, Arizona 

GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio 

JOHN ENSIGN, Nevada 

LINDSEY GRAHAM, South Carolina 

ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah 

MICHAEL L. ALEXANDER, Staff Director 

KRISTINE V. LAM, Professional Staff Member 

CHRISTIAN J. BECKNER, Professional Staff Member 

BRANDON L. MILHORN, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

JENNIFER L. TARR, Minority Counsel 

JOHN K. GRANT, Minority Counsel 

TRINA DRIESSNACK TYRER, Chief Clerk 

PATRICIA R. HOGAN, Publications Clerk and GPO Detailee 

LAURA W. KILBRIDE, Hearing Clerk 


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C O N T E N T S 

Opening statements: Page 

Senator Lieberman ........................................................................................... 1 

Senator Collins ................................................................................................. 3 

Senator Kirk ..................................................................................................... 4 

Prepared statements: 

Senator Lieberman ........................................................................................... 17 

Senator Collins ................................................................................................. 20 

Senator Kirk ..................................................................................................... 22 

WITNESS 

THURSDAY, DECEMBER 3, 2009 

Caryn A. Wagner to be Under Secretary for Intelligence and Analysis, U.S. 

Department of Homeland Security: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 23 


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NOMINATION OF CARYN A. WAGNER 

THURSDAY, DECEMBER 3, 2009 

U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m., in room 

SD–342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joseph I. Lieberman, Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Lieberman, Kirk, and Collins. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN LIEBERMAN 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. The hearing will come to order. Good 

morning and welcome to this hearing at which we will consider the 

nomination of Caryn Wagner to be Under Secretary for Intelligence 

and Analysis at the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). 

Although Ms. Wagner’s nomination has been referred by the Senate to the Select Committee on Intelligence, S. Res. 445 gives committees with jurisdiction over the departments where nominees will 

serve the right to also hold hearings and interviews on the nomination—a right that we assert today. 

We do so because the development of the Intelligence and Analysis Directorate (I&A) has been a high priority for this Committee 

since the passage of the Homeland Security Act in 2002. 

When the Act was being debated on the Senate floor, I said the 

provision that established the Information Analysis and Infrastructure Protection Directorate ‘‘goes to the heart of the weaknesses 

that have been exposed in our Nation’s homeland defenses since 

September 11, 2001—and that is, the lack of information sharing 

related to terrorist activities between intelligence, law enforcement, 

and other agencies.’’ 

In 2007, this Committee was privileged to lead efforts in the Senate to pass the second 9/11 Act, the unfinished legislative business 

that came out of the 9/11 Commission, which clarified and expanded the responsibilities of the I&A Directorate and DHS and established the position for which Ms. Wagner has been nominated. 

Under the leadership of her predecessors, former Under Secretary Charlie Allen and current Acting Under Secretary Bart 

Johnson, the Department of Homeland Security’s Intelligence and 

Analysis Directorate has, I think, taken important steps forward to 

clarify its duties, to implement its responsibilities both within the 

Department and the intelligence community and with its many 

stakeholders outside of the community. And I think the American 

people clearly are safer as a result. 


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But this is unfinished work, and Senator Collins and I have 

talked with Secretary Napolitano about it, and I think she has a 

vision that is consistent with the vision that created this Directorate, which is not to duplicate what other parts of the intelligence 

community are doing, but to add value, to add something unique. 

The two most obvious, it seems to me, areas in which the I&A 

Directorate can add value is in the integration, coordination, and 

expression—sharing—of the intelligence brought forth anyway by 

components of the Department of Homeland Security, including, for 

instance, Customs and Border Protection or the Transportation Security Administration or Immigration and Customs Enforcement or 

the Coast Guard. That was required under the 9/11 Act, and I 

think it is still a very important function. 

These components of DHS each possess intelligence-raising capacity and intelligence products related to travel, immigration, and 

individuals’ access to critical infrastructure that, if brought together, really can enhance investigative and intelligence efforts to 

protect our homeland and our people here at home. 

The importance of this work was demonstrated most recently 

and, I think, most impressively in the terrorism investigations that 

led to the arrests of Najibullah Zazi, David Headley, and Tahawwur Rana. 

The Department of Homeland Security formed a Threat Task 

Force within itself to coordinate its support of these FBI-led investigations and provided critical information to the Federal Bureau 

of Investigation (FBI) as the investigations proceeded and suspects 

were subsequently arrested. I think the Department should be very 

proud of these efforts, which represent exactly the kind of coordination that we hoped for when DHS was created. 

The second and an increasingly significant role played by the Department and by I&A particularly, in conjunction with the FBI, is 

to serve as the interface between the national intelligence community, through the DHS, and State, local, and tribal law enforcement 

and intelligence agencies. 

The Department’s efforts to support and sustain fusion centers 

around the country are critical to our homeland security, and I am 

pleased by the steps that Secretary Napolitano has taken to better 

coordinate these efforts. 

I presume that as Under Secretary for Intelligence and Analysis, 

if you are confirmed, you will play a very critical role in implementing this vision and ensuring that the Department is helping 

to build a well-integrated and effective national network of fusion 

centers. In both these ways, coordination of intelligence assets 

within the Department will create interfacing between your Directorate and State, local, and tribal law enforcement and intelligence; 

you will really coordinate this effort and be an important part of 

what is not only our constant desire, but necessity to improve our 

intelligence capabilities against the terrorists, who we know are 

plotting every day to attack us here at home again. 

I appreciate the record that you bring to this, Ms. Wagner. You 

have a very strong background both in the intelligence community 

and strong management experience, serving in the Army Signal 

Corps, at the Defense Intelligence Agency, and with the Office of 

the Director of National Intelligence at the time of its creation. It 


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makes me very proud that this Committee can say that we have 

created the opportunity for you to have the last two jobs you have 

had. It is our small part in increasing employment in America. 

She has served also on two occasions on the staff of the House 

Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, including most recently as the committee’s budget director. So you come to this job 

with some very relevant and important experience. 

I thank you for being here, and I now would call on Senator Collins. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR COLLINS 

Senator COLLINS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The nomination of Caryn Wagner to serve as the next Under Secretary for Intelligence and Analysis, as well as serving as the Chief 

Intelligence Officer at DHS, comes at a time when our understanding of threats to our security is rapidly evolving. 

Recent events serve to remind us that the threat of terrorist attacks no longer comes only from countries half a world away, but 

also from within our borders. The arrests of plotters like Najibullah 

Zazi in New York, the indictment of 14 individuals in Minneapolis 

connected with recruiting Somali-Americans to fight with a terrorist group in Somalia, and the shooting rampage at Fort Hood 

have underscored a key finding of this Committee over the course 

of a 4-year investigation—that is, that the threat of violent Islamist 

radicalization occurring in this country is real, and it is happening 

now. 

Detecting and responding to this threat does not fall to the FBI 

alone. An effective response requires a coordinated effort backed by 

the support of the hundreds of thousands of State, local, and tribal 

law enforcement officers on the front lines every day. The Office of 

Intelligence and Analysis plays a critical role in that effort. 

Over the course of the last several years, the Office has provided 

vital support to our law enforcement community. State and local 

fusion centers have benefited from I&A-developed training programs. DHS intelligence analysts have been detailed to fusion centers, serving alongside their State and local partners. I&A has disseminated numerous classified and unclassified intelligence products to help Federal, State, local, and tribal officials and the private sector prepare for, prevent, and respond to homeland security 

threats. 

Ms. Wagner, as the Chairman has pointed out, possesses considerable experience in managing the budget and analytic products of 

intelligence community elements. I am concerned, however, that 

she appears to lack experience working with State and local law 

enforcement, and that is an area that I will want to pursue today. 

It is an important responsibility of the Under Secretary. To meet 

the intelligence requirements of State and local law enforcement officials, who are among I&A’s most significant intelligence customers, will require a sustained and focused commitment from the 

next Under Secretary. 

To continue to improve I&A and to integrate the DHS intelligence enterprise, the next Under Secretary will also need to address several significant challenges: 


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Information sharing has improved, but there remains resistance 

to the culture of sharing that must exist across the Department, 

within the intelligence community, and between I&A and its Federal, State, and local partners. Important information is still not 

getting into the hands of those who need it at a level of classification where they can use it, plus we have seen what appears to be 

a failure of information sharing in the Fort Hood case. 

I&A must continue to focus on improving the quality of its analysis—producing timely and actionable information for its intelligence customers, not merely repackaging or forwarding analysis 

that is done elsewhere. 

I&A continues to rely too heavily on contractors to perform its 

work. While contractors can be an important force multiplier and 

provide a ‘‘surge capacity’’ on unique topics, I&A needs a strong 

base of Federal employees. Contractors currently make up approximately 63 percent of the I&A workforce. The new Under Secretary 

must correct this imbalance. 

I&A must adapt to the changing nature of the homegrown 

threat. As this Committee has found, self-radicalizing ‘‘lone wolf ’’ 

terrorists are hard to detect and to deter. I&A and the entire intelligence and law enforcement community will have to develop new 

ways to respond to the growing threat of homegrown terrorism. 

I look forward to discussing these and other issues with Ms. 

Wagner today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks very much, Senator Collins, for 

that very thoughtful statement. 

Senator Kirk, normally we limit the freedom of expression of 

Members of the Committee besides Senator Collins and myself at 

the outset so that we can get to the witnesses, but since it is only 

the three of us, would you like to make an opening statement? 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR KIRK 

Senator KIRK. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. You 

are very kind. I will make a very brief statement in welcoming Ms. 

Wagner and thanking you for holding this hearing about her important nomination to an important office. And I thank Senator 

Collins for her comments as well. 

As was said, Ms. Wagner has an impressive record in intelligence, having served at the Defense Intelligence Agency (DNI), 

the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), and the House Permanent 

Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI). She may not know this, 

I did mention it to her a little earlier, but our career paths are not 

totally unconnected since I was an alumnus of Fort Benning in Columbus, Georgia, where Ms. Wagner was born, and I am also an 

alumnus of Fort Devens in Massachusetts where she served. So we 

know about neighborhoods, in any event. 

My interest will be hearing this morning from Ms. Wagner about 

the relationship and the intelligence needs at the State and local 

level. That is the line of the first responders. That is where the action and the antennae, if you will, and the ears and eyes are open 

for suspected threats. And that relationship with the first responders and the training and development of that area is going to be 

vitally important, I would think, under your watch, if you are confirmed. 


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1The prepared statement of Ms. Wagner appears in the Appendix on page 23. 

And the second area is the area of cyberspace and cyber attacks, 

which is obviously a network where those who are looking to do 

damage to us will focus their attention. And so the policing of the 

cyberspace area and also the sharing of information with those at 

the State and local level on intelligence needs, intelligence products 

that relate to things on their watch are going to be important as 

well. So I am going to look forward to your statement and maybe 

follow up with some specific questions in those two areas. So I welcome you. And I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for allowing me to 

make an opening statement. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Senator Kirk. I appreciate it. 

Ms. Wagner, as you may know, our Committee rules require all 

witnesses at nomination hearings to give their testimony under 

oath, so I ask you to please stand and raise your right hand. Do 

you swear that the testimony you are about to give the Committee 

will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 

help you, God? 

Ms. WAGNER. I do. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you. Please be seated, and we 

would invite and welcome an opening statement and introduction 

of any family or friends that are with you today. 

TESTIMONY OF CARYN A. WAGNER,1 TO BE UNDER SECRETARY FOR INTELLIGENCE AND ANALYSIS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY 

Ms. WAGNER. Thank you, Senator Lieberman. My husband, Chad 

Lash, is here, and a friend, Hope Headley. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Good. 

Ms. WAGNER. I am honored to appear before you as the nominee 

for Under Secretary for Intelligence and Analysis at the Department of Homeland Security. I would like to thank President Obama 

and Secretary Napolitano for having the confidence in me to nominate me for this position. 

I believe this position occupies a unique mission space between 

the national intelligence and law enforcement communities and the 

State, local, tribal, and private sector entities that are the front 

lines of homeland security. There is nothing more important than 

forging and fostering these connections. If confirmed, I believe I 

have the right skills to continue building on the foundation laid by 

Pat Hughes, Charlie Allen, and the current acting Under Secretary, Bart Johnson. 

As Senator Kirk mentioned, Mr. Chairman, I began my intelligence career as a signals intelligence officer in the U.S. Army, 

serving 8 years on active duty. In the years since, I have spent 71⁄2

years at the Defense Intelligence Agency, 5 years on the staff of the 

House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, 3 years in the 

private sector, and 3 years with the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. I have had a mixture of staff and line management positions, including leading a 2,000-person analytic organization within the Defense Intelligence Agency. 

I have also had a great deal of experience in the interagency environment, and I am familiar with all facets of the intelligence 


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community. As Senator Collins noted, however, my experience with 

law enforcement has been more limited. I have had significant exposure while working at the DNI and in Congress to the capabilities and contributions of national law enforcement and homeland 

security agencies. I know I still have a lot to learn about State, 

local, and tribal law enforcement, which is why, if confirmed, I am 

eager to get started with the help of Principal Deputy Under Secretary for Intelligence and Analysis, Bart Johnson, who is a highly 

respected and decorated veteran of the New York State Police 

Force and who has done an outstanding job as Acting Under Secretary for the past 6 months. 

I have had the opportunity to observe the Office of Intelligence 

and Analysis from the outside while I served in the Office of the 

DNI and on the HPSCI staff, and I am aware of the challenges 

that the organization still faces. Since my nomination, I have 

learned more about I&A’s statutory mission, its ongoing activities 

and programs, and the Secretary’s vision about where she would 

like to take the Department. I have formed some preliminary views 

on what needs to be done to enhance I&A’s support to its customers and the Department and to improve its standing within the 

Intelligence Community and with its congressional overseers. 

If confirmed, I plan to focus my initial efforts in three main 

areas: First, creating a true homeland security information-sharing 

enterprise through a greater focus on the State and local fusion 

centers; second, creating a DHS intelligence enterprise as the Chief 

Intelligence Officer for the Department; and, third, putting in place 

the management processes necessary to improve the morale, efficiency, and professionalism of I&A as an organization. 

The unique niche that DHS I&A occupies, as defined by the Congress, is best defined by its responsibility to share information with 

State, local, and tribal authorities and the private sector on the full 

range of threats to the homeland—often referred to as ‘‘all threats, 

all hazards.’’ First responders at the State and local levels are the 

Nation’s first line of defense. They are uniquely able to identify 

anomalous or criminal behavior that could have a terrorist nexus. 

It is critical to educate them on terrorist indicators and behaviors 

as they are identified, to capture information that is lawfully obtained while strictly adhering to privacy, civil rights, and civil liberties regulations, and to share it with the larger intelligence and 

law enforcement enterprise. This is a multifaceted challenge that 

requires adapting analytic methodologies and product lines, a great 

deal of training at all levels of the enterprise, and information technology (IT) and information-sharing solutions to enable two-way information flow. It also requires an approach that is tailored to the 

different threat and operational realities of the individual fusion 

centers. If confirmed, I intend to develop a comprehensive, multiyear strategic plan for supporting the State and local fusion centers 

that can be used to guide resource and analytic planning. 

The role of Chief Intelligence Officer for the Department was created to empower the Under Secretary for Intelligence and Analysis 

to create a DHS intelligence enterprise that was more than the 

sum of its parts. DHS’s operational components have intelligence 

elements that support their individual missions, and they also have 

data and expertise that can be leveraged by I&A in support of deVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:09 Aug 10, 2010 Jkt 056148 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\56148.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

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partmental priorities or national, State, local, and tribal clients, 

again, while strictly adhering to privacy, civil rights, and civil liberties regulations. In addition, the components may have intelligence or information requirements that are not adequately being 

met. I&A can help to meet those requirements by leveraging the 

rest of the intelligence community on their behalf, producing tailored products for or with them, providing analytic training and 

mentoring, and serving as an advocate for increasing their organic 

capabilities. By leveraging both the components’ and I&A capabilities, we can build on the recent progress that you mentioned, Senator Lieberman, to create a true intelligence enterprise that enables I&A and the Department to achieve their full potential and 

best serve their customers. If confirmed, I will view the role of 

Chief Intelligence Officer for the Department as one of the most 

important of my missions and functions, and I will put in place a 

staff structure to manage it. 

In the management arena, I&A is still a young organization, and 

several recent studies have suggested that it suffers from a lack of 

institutionalized processes and poor morale. If confirmed, one of my 

biggest priorities will be developing and formalizing internal processes for planning, programming, and budgeting, performance 

measurement, and human capital management, which will include 

taking a hard look at contractors in the organization, what they are 

doing and whether it is appropriate, and trying to reverse that 

ratio that Senator Collins mentioned in her opening statement. I 

believe that communicating clear mission guidance, implementing 

fair and transparent processes for hiring, promoting, and rewarding people, and developing a structured and inclusive process for 

building the budget will go a long way toward improving morale. 

If confirmed, I also plan to make training a centerpiece of my agenda. I have already mentioned the importance of training to building 

information-sharing and intelligence enterprises, but it is equally 

important for professional development and morale within I&A. If 

confirmed, I will focus on ensuring that I&A analysts receive the 

training and tradecraft that they need. 

Finally, if confirmed, I will work hard to establish and maintain 

constructive partnerships, particularly with the Office of the DNI, 

the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC), the FBI, and the 

Congress. If confirmed, I pledge to keep you fully informed of I&A’s 

progress and activities. Thank you. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you very much. That was an excellent opening statement. Obviously, you know about this area and 

have thought some about it. 

We will have 7-minute rounds of questioning. I am going to start 

with the standard questions we ask of all witnesses. 

First, is there anything you are aware of in your background that 

might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office to 

which you have been nominated? 

Ms. WAGNER. No. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Do you know of anything, personal or otherwise, that would in any way prevent you from fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to which you have 

been nominated? 

Ms. WAGNER. No. 


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Chairman LIEBERMAN. And, finally, do you agree without reservation to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and testify before any duly constituted committee of Congress if you are 

confirmed? 

Ms. WAGNER. Yes. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you. 

Let me begin with just a few baseline factual questions that I 

thought about as you were delivering your opening statement. Do 

you know how many employees there are in the I&A Directorate 

now? 

Ms. WAGNER. Senator, I believe there are between 600 and 700 

employees. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. That sounds right, yes. So it has grown 

in the years since it was created. Incidentally, I want to make an 

apology on the record to Pat Hughes. How quickly we forget. I 

mentioned Charlie Allen and Bart Johnson, but Pat Hughes got 

this started and, as part of a long career of service to our country, 

did a really great job. 

To the best of your knowledge—and maybe you have knowledge 

of this particularly from your time at DNI—what is the way the 

Under Secretary for I&A interfaces regularly with the rest of the 

national intelligence community? Are there regular meetings? 

Ms. WAGNER. Yes, Senator Lieberman, there are regular meetings, and they take place at all levels of the organization. As the 

Under Secretary, if confirmed, I would attend Executive Committee 

(EXCOM) meetings hosted by the DNI, along with all the other 

members of the intelligence community, on topics ranging from the 

budget to current intelligence problems. I know that members of 

the I&A organization meet regularly with their counterparts on 

such things as establishing collection priorities and ensuring that 

they are communicated to the elements of the intelligence community (IC) that can answer them. 

There is also a lot of interaction between the analysts and the 

Deputy Director of National Intelligence for Analysis and the analytic ombudsman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Just in an informal, ongoing way. 

Ms. WAGNER. Some formal meetings and a lot of informal coordination on analytic tradecraft, on the analytic guidelines that have 

been established in the wake of the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act. And there is a lot of interaction with the 

National Counterterrorism Center, of course. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. I was going to ask that. Does I&A have 

a representative there? 

Ms. WAGNER. I&A has something called the Interagency Threat 

Assessment and Coordination Group (ITACG) that was created in 

legislation. It is made up of State and local law enforcement officials headed by an I&A employee who reports to Michael Leiter as 

the Director of the National Counterterrorism Center. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. So you are plugged into the National 

Counterterrorism Center, or I&A is, on a 24/7 basis. 

Ms. WAGNER. Yes, Senator. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. So before I get to a couple of substantive 

questions, let us say that somebody in the Immigration and Customs Enforcement intelligence section sees something that is susVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:09 Aug 10, 2010 Jkt 056148 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\56148.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

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pect of potential terrorist activity. In the normal course, how does 

that make its way up and through the rest of the intelligence community and to the law enforcement community? 

Ms. WAGNER. In the normal course of events, in the course of 

executing their legal authorities, if they identify any information in 

accordance with those authorities, they would enter them into appropriate databases and notify the appropriate person. And I am 

not 100 percent sure at this point in my nomination to know exactly how that works, and I would expect to become familiar with 

that very early, if I am confirmed. 

The idea of identifying suspicious behavior and reporting it upward is something that I think is being addressed as part of the 

Suspicious Activity Reporting Initiative, which would apply much 

more broadly than just to components of DHS. And that would be, 

based on what I have read and learned, a very structured, formal 

process to ensure that the information is reported in a way that is 

useful and, again, consistent with privacy, civil rights, and civil liberties. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Right. Is that process being initiated by 

the DNI? 

Ms. WAGNER. I believe it is being initiated from the White House 

with the cooperation—— 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Through John Brennan. 

Ms. WAGNER [continuing]. Of multiple elements of the Executive 

Branch. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Yes. Well, this is really important, and I 

am going to go now to a question about what happened at Fort 

Hood with Major Hasan. Again, hindsight is always clearer, but it 

was really about a judgment call made by the people at the Joint 

Terrorism Task Force (JTTF) who looked at the e-mails apparently 

between Hasan and the radical imam in Yemen and what decision 

they made about whether to share that or not. So this heightened 

sensitivity, very difficult, I understand, because the data flowing by 

people and all the components of the Department of Homeland Security and intelligence divisions every day is large, but how to sensitize them to err on the side of caution when they see something 

that worries them, I think without prejudging, is going to be one 

of the conclusions we are going to make about the Hasan case and 

the people at JTTF who happen to be looking at those e-mail transcripts. Do you agree? I am not asking for a judgment on the 

Hasan case, but just generally about the handling of suspect data. 

Ms. WAGNER. Yes. Generally, I would agree. I am not, as the 

nominee, briefed on all the details of the Hasan case. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Understood. This Committee, as you probably know, has launched an investigation into the terrorist attack 

at Fort Hood by Nidal Hasan. I&A plays an important role today 

with respect to radicalization and violent Islamist extremism, producing analytic reports and disseminating them often at the ‘‘For 

Official Use Only’’ (FOUO) level to key partners in State and local 

law enforcement. 

For instance, and of real interest, I&A issued reports at the 

FOUO level to State and local law enforcement in September 2008 

and January 2009 on Anwar al–Awlaki, the radical Yemeni-AmerVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:09 Aug 10, 2010 Jkt 056148 PO 00000 Frm 00013 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\56148.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

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ican imam who, according to media reports, was involved in this 

e-mail correspondence with Hasan. 

I want to ask you what you believe I&A’s responsibility should 

be with respect to analysis of radicalization and violent Islamist extremism and how should those responsibilities be distinct from the 

FBI or, in another sense—less relevant, but relevant—the National 

Counterterrorism Center. 

Ms. WAGNER. Thank you for that question because I have actually given that some thought. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Good. 

Ms. WAGNER. I think that I&A plays an important role both before and after and, to a lesser extent, during these kinds of investigations. And certainly analysis of radical and violent extremism 

is an appropriate mission, with the emphasis on the violent part. 

I expect that they would coordinate closely with analysts who are 

working on this issue at NCTC and other elements of the community to ensure that the products are meeting the needs of their specific State, local, and tribal customer sets. Where they do not, I 

would expect I&A to try to fill those gaps and tailor those products 

or take them to the next level since the goal is to leverage that 

knowledge and expertise to provide actionable, useful information 

that the first responders/preventers can use to identify these behaviors early on and potentially stop any terrorist plots from going 

on. 

So before something would happen, you would expect, exactly as 

you said, that I&A would be putting out products to provide situational awareness and, wherever possible, specific indicators and actionable intelligence for use for the fusion centers to pass on in 

their areas of jurisdiction. 

During an investigation, they would support the FBI by ensuring 

that all of the information that resides within the DHS components 

and that they have gleaned from State, local, and tribal sources 

would be brought to bear to support the investigation. And afterward, they would participate in any after-action lessons learned 

and, again, try to translate that into useful, actionable products 

that could be put out to State, local, and Tribal law enforcement. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks. I appreciate the answer. It is 

clear you have thought about it. Senator Collins. 

Senator COLLINS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Ms. Wagner, you have talked about the reports and products that 

I&A produces. Obviously, it is critical that those products be of 

high quality. Earlier this year, I&A produced a report on rightwing extremism in the United States that was widely panned. It 

was considered to be poorly written and inadequately sourced. It 

needlessly offended a number of veterans organizations such that 

Secretary Napolitano had to make apologies for the Department. 

It is also of concern to me to learn, when we looked into this, 

that the Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties had not concurred 

with the release of the report, and yet it was released. The Office 

of General Counsel had not reviewed the report, and yet it had 

been released. 

Have you read this report? 

Ms. WAGNER. Yes, Senator Collins, I have. 


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Senator COLLINS. What is your judgment of the quality of the 

analysis in the report? 

Ms. WAGNER. I believe that the report showed some serious 

shortcomings in tradecraft and in concern for privacy, civil rights, 

and civil liberties. 

Senator COLLINS. Do you believe that the Department, and I&A 

in particular, has now adopted a sufficient process to help ensure 

the quality of future reports and prevent poorly sourced and poorly 

written reports such as this one from being released in the future? 

Ms. WAGNER. I know that they have taken steps to put in place 

a process for vetting, review, and release of products to ensure that 

the tradecraft is rigorous and that the appropriate concerns for privacy, civil rights, and civil liberties have been accommodated in the 

products. If confirmed, I will certainly review that process to make 

sure it is adequate, and I intend to focus a great deal, along with 

Dawn Scalici, who is the new Deputy Under Secretary for Analysis 

and has worked at the National Counterterrorism Center, to ensure that we are inculcating the analysts with the appropriate 

tradecraft, providing them mentoring, taking advantage of the analytic ombudsman at the DNI, and everything we need to do to raise 

the level of tradecraft in I&A. 

Senator COLLINS. The Homeland Security Institute recently reviewed the activities of the Office, and among its findings was that 

it concluded that I&A had not clearly defined the value that it adds 

to the products that we just discussed that are distributed to stakeholders. Clearly, our vision was that I&A would do more than simply disseminate intelligence reports prepared by other components 

of the intelligence community. That, too, is important, but what do 

you see as I&A’s role in adding value to analysis that may be prepared elsewhere to make sure that it meets the needs of your customers? 

Ms. WAGNER. Senator Collins, I think it has to start with ensuring that we have the best understanding of what the requirements 

of the customers are, and part of that is going to involve sending 

more I&A people out to the fusion centers to live that life for a 

while and possibly even bringing some of those folks back for a mutual exchange of perspectives. 

I am going to rely a lot on Bart Johnson to help me as I go out 

to the fusion centers to understand what should we be providing, 

and then I think what I&A needs to do—and will do if I am confirmed—is examine how do you best meet those requirements. In 

some cases, you can meet it by using the analysis produced by 

other elements of the community with a few changes. In others, 

you are going to have to tailor that or, again, take it that next step, 

sort of like what the ITACG folks do at NCTC where they can 

sometimes find a paragraph within a highly classified report that 

is classified at a much lower level, but includes a nugget of really 

useful information on a terrorist methodology that you can then extract out, package, add whatever needs to be added, and get out 

to the customers. 

In some cases, we may find that the intelligence community is 

not producing the information we need to meet those requirements, 

and then I&A would have to determine whether they want to esVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:09 Aug 10, 2010 Jkt 056148 PO 00000 Frm 00015 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\56148.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

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tablish their own ability to do that kind of original analysis or leverage a task on the intelligence community. 

So I think the answer is to figure out the best way to meet the 

need and get it done, and it will be a combination of tailoring an 

original analysis and levying requirements on the rest of the community. 

Senator COLLINS. You mentioned in your opening statement that 

although you have a great deal of experience on Capitol Hill and 

in certain intelligence agencies, you have not worked closely with 

State and local law enforcement and tribal law enforcement, and 

that is a critical role that the Department of Homeland Security 

plays. 

Other than relying on and learning from Deputy Secretary Johnson, who, I agree, is a tremendous asset to you, how do you intend 

to compensate for that gap in your experience? What will you do 

beyond turning to your Deputy? 

Ms. WAGNER. I intend to travel to some of the State and local 

fusion centers and basically meet the people, talk to them, and try 

to understand what it is that they need and what they are looking 

to I&A to provide. And I will, obviously, read as much as I can. I 

will try very hard to learn as much as I can as quickly as I can. 

Senator COLLINS. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Senator Collins. Senator Kirk. 

Senator KIRK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

This is in part a follow-up to Senator Collins’ question, and it has 

to do with what I will call the local, State first responders and so 

forth who are the front line of this effort and so many others. And 

I know that the Department is making some strides to, shall we 

say, increase progress on its information sharing and that you particularly, if confirmed, hope to do more in that area. 

One of the things that you may hear as you travel around and 

visit is that the intelligence products are sometimes not relevant or 

helpful to those at the State and local level, that they may be just 

not useful and too dense and so forth. So one of the things that perhaps you could speak to this morning is, if you have enough knowledge at this point, what you might do about it, is how you intend 

to improve and strengthen information sharing, and I am especially 

interested in how you would provide tailored intelligence products 

so they are more relevant and useful on the front lines. 

Ms. WAGNER. Thank you, Senator Kirk. I do think that there is 

somewhat of a parallel—not an exact parallel, but somewhat of a 

parallel—to work that I have done in the past in the military. 

When I was at the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), one of the 

functions of the analytic organization that I led was to provide actionable and useful intelligence to deployed forces in theater. And 

it was a similar exercise of, is this just sort of academic information that is not necessarily going to help them, or is this something 

that they can actually use and act on. 

There is also a long tradition in the military of being able to put 

out information at lower classification levels without sources and 

methods that then can be acted on by tactical forces. And so I think 

there are some parallels in my experience. 

But I will focus on looking at what is the bottom line of these 

products. If I read it, do I see that there can be some action taken, 


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some training provided, something that will actually move the ball 

down the field, if you will. And I know that Bart Johnson is focused 

on that as well, and he and the ITACG have actually already started, I think, a very nice product line called the Roll Call Release, 

which is a one-pager designed for the local police forces to use during their roll calls. And those are the kinds of things I think we 

need to focus on. 

Senator KIRK. The other aspect of this is the collection of information at the local level. In some areas, it has been suggested that, 

as the information is collected and then hopefully shared, training 

would be more helpful so that those on the front line could be more 

sophisticated perhaps in how and what to do with that information. 

Do you have some thoughts about that and how you might be able 

to help on the training aspect of the front-line folks again? 

Ms. WAGNER. I think training is absolutely critical. The State 

and local fusion centers are State-run entities. They do not belong 

to the Federal Government, and they are part of an enterprise. 

They need to be mutually reinforcing, and we need to support 

them, and they are providing information back to us. 

One of the things that I&A and the Department can do to help 

them is to help train the people that are there, both the I&A people 

and the other folks at the fusion centers, so that they understand 

the legal frameworks within which they are collecting information 

and the requirements for safeguarding that information, how long 

it can be stored, and that is definitely something that, if I am confirmed, I will focus on, trying to ascertain what training is needed 

and start providing it to anybody actually who is interested. 

Senator KIRK. If I may, I am just going to thank you for that. 

I wanted to switch now, if I could, to the cyberspace issue, and, 

again, it is the collecting and disseminating of cyberspace information and possible threats from the local level to the sharing entities 

and also the training of local folks within the cyberspace area because that, it seems to me, in this age and moving forward is going 

to be a potential battleground, if you will, that we need to protect. 

So any thoughts that you want to offer with respect to that? 

Ms. WAGNER. Well, I agree with your assessment of the cybersecurity threat. I believe that right now I&A’s efforts in cybersecurity 

are focused on critical infrastructure protection, and there is an 

analytic effort that is taking place as part of the joint threat vulnerability analysis for critical infrastructure. I do not know yet 

whether that is sufficient, and if confirmed, one of the things I intend to do is to meet with Phil Reitinger, who is the Deputy Under 

Secretary for Cybersecurity within the Department, and find out 

ways that I&A can team with him to provide more analytic support 

to what is going on as the cybersecurity effort ramps up. And one 

of the key areas that I will discuss with him is the informationsharing piece and what role I&A should play in that. And I will 

do everything I can to support the Department’s efforts to ramp up 

that capability consistent with the overall Administration’s approach. 

Senator KIRK. And just perhaps a final follow-up, if I may. Tell 

me, if you know, what the Department’s role in information sharing is with the private sector, and particularly I am thinking, obviously, about our electric national grid system and utilities and the 


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danger or threat that might pertain with the kidnapping of key 

products or the dismantling of certain transformers and the impact 

it might have on the Nation’s communications system and other aspects of electric-based transmissions. 

Ms. WAGNER. I believe the Department has a very robust information-sharing effort with the private sector in all of the key domains for critical infrastructure protection. I&A’s role in that is 

working with the critical infrastructure protection folks to assess 

the threat to the infrastructure, so I&A teams with the analysts 

who are looking at the vulnerability, and they bring the threat 

component, and those products are produced jointly and they are 

shared with the private sector components of each of the domains 

that they deal with. 

Senator KIRK. I am beyond my time, but I would only repeat 

that, if you are confirmed, it seems to me that in the age in which 

we live and to which we are headed, that is a very sensitive and 

potentially threatening area of technology that we need to protect 

for the purpose of the security of our homeland. 

Ms. WAGNER. Yes, Senator, I agree. 

Senator KIRK. Good. Thank you very much, Ms. Wagner. Thank 

you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Senator Kirk. 

I have one or two more questions. Obviously, my colleagues are 

welcome to ask questions, too. We just will do a quick second 

round. 

I want to come back to these two great areas of potential for 

value-added through the Intelligence and Analysis Directorate. We 

always, after September 11, 2001, use the metaphor of connecting 

the dots on the board, and it seems to me that in your role you 

have the ability to bring quite relevant dots to the board from within the Department of Homeland Security and from State and local. 

In the 9/11 Act of 2007, as I am sure you know, we gave the 

Under Secretary strong authorities with respect to the management and integration of intelligence components within the various 

agencies of DHS, including authorities to develop a consolidated intelligence budget for the intelligence components of the Department. I wanted to ask you if you have thought about how you 

would use that authority and others to harmonize policies, standards, and processes within the Department in a way that would not 

only enhance integration but make it more likely that you would 

bring dots up from within the Department to put on the board to 

be connected. 

Ms. WAGNER. Yes, Senator, I have thought about that. I do not 

know that I have an answer at this point, but I think that it is a 

very powerful tool that you have provided to the Under Secretary, 

and I would expect that it could be very useful in helping to evaluate the capabilities of the intelligence elements of the components 

of the Department to ensure that they are providing optimal support to their components and also to put in place the infrastructure 

to make sure that we can get the information and expertise that 

resides there to bring to bear on other problems, both to support 

other components and other parts of the community. 

So I think it is a useful tool. I also think that potentially there 

needs to be sort of a staff element within I&A that is focused on 


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administering this effort. And that is something that I have been 

thinking about and, if confirmed, I will certainly explore. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Good. The final question is about the 

other part of it, which is State and local, and we had the exchange 

with Senator Kirk about information sharing. There is greater access—but not as great as it should be—to databases. Now, I know 

there have been a couple of cases at least that I know of where a 

local or State police officer stopped someone, had a suspicion, 

plugged into a terrorism watchlist, and actually apprehended people who turned out to be planning terrorist activities and were 

charged with violations of law. 

It seems to me that the other part of this may be to try to train, 

in some sense educate, the hundreds of thousands of State and 

local law enforcement officers and tribal law enforcement officers 

we have across the country to think of themselves as not just first 

responders but first preventers and to see themselves as intelligence gatherers. A police officer walking along the beat has a responsibility to that neighborhood, etc. But he or she may see something that has an intelligence aspect to it, and to educate them to 

report on it is, I think, an important tool. I have no idea what is 

going on in this regard. I do not know whether you do, but I wanted to mention it to you. 

Ms. WAGNER. Well, I agree. They are absolutely critical. They are 

the first line of defense. And I think the kind of product that I 

mentioned earlier, the Roll Call Release that you can send out to 

all of the local police departments so that they can brief their folks, 

is a good step in that direction, and also training, obviously. 

I think there will be a great deal of training that is going to be 

associated with the Suspicious Activity Reporting Initiative. When 

that moves from the pilot project to be more broadly implemented, 

it will be absolutely key for that to happen so that what you are 

getting is quality information. 

So I agree with you, and I need to explore, if I am confirmed, the 

ways to make every first preventer aware of the kind of information that would be useful if it was passed back up the line. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Good. Thank you. Senator Collins. 

Senator COLLINS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Just one final question. I&A has significant human capital 

issues. It has a very lengthy hiring process that often discourages 

highly qualified applicants so they get snapped up by other agencies at other levels of government. It also has problems in providing a career path for individuals who are hired, and thus, I&A 

has individuals working there with low morale and with a lot of 

turnover. And that has led to an overreliance on contractors, which 

in turn limits opportunities for people who are working there as 

Federal employees. So it is a vicious circle in many ways. 

In 2007, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) did a review and discovered that DHS had a particularly high number of 

contractors who were performing inherently governmental functions, and that should not occur. We held a hearing on that GAO 

report, and to see a couple of years later that I&A still has a workforce that is made up of more than 60 percent contract employees 

is very disturbing because it shows that no one is taking this problem seriously. 


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How do you intend to address the workforce needs of I&A? Obviously, we need to have long-term career employees at I&A that will 

help to improve the quality and the quantity of the products that 

they are producing, so it is an important issue. So what steps 

would you take to reduce the reliance on Federal contractors and 

build a highly qualified cadre of Federal employees? 

Ms. WAGNER. I will rely on the guidelines that exist from the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) and the DNI on the use of 

contractors to inform what I do. But I also intend to basically, if 

I am confirmed, look across the board at who is doing what and 

map out a strategic human capital plan that says how many people 

we think we need for these functions. 

There are some functions that are on a growth path, like potentially cybersecurity analysis, and others that potentially may not 

need all the resources currently devoted to them. We will try to reallocate. We will try to look at making sure that contractors are 

being used in an appropriate way consistent with the DNI and 

OMB guidelines. 

And as for the hiring, I had a similar challenge in DIA, and what 

I will do initially is map out the entire hiring process and try to 

find out where the problems are. There is always going to be a percentage of that process from when you think about hiring someone 

to when they walk in the door that you do not control. But when 

you map it out, you actually find out that you control a lot more 

of it than you thought. And the things that I can affect, if I am 

confirmed, I am going to make a matter of my management leadership emphasis to try to bring some new blood and some new people 

into those billets. 

Senator COLLINS. Thank you. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Very good. Thanks very much. Thanks for 

appearing before the Committee. Thanks for your service to the 

country up until now, and if you are confirmed, obviously, we look 

forward to working with you as you develop this very important 

function of the Department, over which we have an oversight responsibility, to yet greater levels of its potential. 

Without objection, the record will be kept open until 12 noon tomorrow for the submission of any written questions or statements, 

and we will try our best to see if we can get you confirmed as soon 

as possible. 

Ms. WAGNER. Thank you, Senator Lieberman and Senator Collins. 

Senator COLLINS. Thank you. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you very much. The hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:02 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 


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