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57–967 2010

ECONOMIC IMPACTS OF GLOBAL WARMING: 

GREEN COLLAR JOBS 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

ENERGY INDEPENDENCE 

AND GLOBAL WARMING 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

MAY 22, 2007 

Serial No. 110–5 

( 

Printed for the use of the Select Committee on 

Energy Independence and Global Warming 

globalwarming.house.gov 


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SELECT COMMITTEE ON ENERGY INDEPENDENCE 

AND GLOBAL WARMING 

EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts, Chairman 

EARL BLUMENAUER, Oregon 

JAY INSLEE, Washington 

JOHN B. LARSON, Connecticut 

HILDA L. SOLIS, California 

STEPHANIE HERSETH SANDLIN, 

South Dakota 

EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri 

JOHN J. HALL, New York 

JERRY MCNERNEY, California 

F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., 

Wisconsin, Ranking Member 

JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona 

GREG WALDEN, Oregon 

CANDICE S. MILLER, Michigan 

JOHN SULLIVAN, Oklahoma 

MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee 

PROFESSIONAL STAFF

DAVID MOULTON, Staff Director 

ALIYA BRODSKY, Chief Clerk 

THOMAS WEIMER, Minority Staff Director 


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C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Hon. Edward J. Markey, a Representative in Congress from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, opening statement .................................................... 1 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 3 

Hon. F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the 

State of Wisconsin, opening statement .............................................................. 5 

Hon. Hilda L. Solis, a Representative in Congress from the State of California, opening statement .................................................................................... 6 

Hon. Emanuel Cleaver II, a Representative in Congress from the State of 

Missouri, prepared statement ............................................................................. 8 

WITNESSES

Mr. Van Jones, President and Co-Founder, Ella Baker Center for Human 

Rights, Oakland, CA ............................................................................................ 9 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 12 

Answers to submitted questions ...................................................................... 53 

Mr. Jerome Ringo, President of the Apollo Alliance ............................................. 17 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 19 

Ms. Elsa Barboza, Campaign Coordinator for the Strategic Concepts in Organizing and Policy Education in Los Angeles, CA ............................................... 23 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 25 

Mr. Robert Thelen, Chief Training Officer of Capital Area Michigan Works 

in Lansing, MI ...................................................................................................... 30 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 32 

Answers to submitted questions ...................................................................... 58 

SUBMITTED MATERIAL

Hon. Edward J. Markey, letter of May 22, 2007, from Mr. Gavin Newsom, 

Mayor of San Francisco ....................................................................................... 61 


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HEARING ON ECONOMIC IMPACTS OF 

GLOBAL WARMING; GREEN COLLAR JOBS 

TUESDAY, MAY 22, 2007 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ENERGY INDEPENDENCE

AND GLOBAL WARMING, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 2:00 p.m., in Room 2318 

Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Edward Markey [chairman of 

the Committee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Markey, Blumenauer, Inslee, Solis, 

Cleaver, Hall, Sensenbrenner, Shadegg, Sullivan and Miller. 

The CHAIRMAN. This hearing is called to order. 

Over the past five weeks, our Committee has examined some of 

the serious consequences of global warming and our oil dependence. 

We have heard how these two challenges threaten our national security, our economy, and our environment—all good reasons why 

we urgently need to implement policies that reduce global warming, pollution, and our oil consumption. 

Today we will examine another good reason to adopt policies that 

will green our economy—the opportunity to create new jobs. We 

will learn that actions which serve the national interest can also 

serve the public interest, and that smart policies can provide a 

pathway out of poverty and into a green economy. 

As we increase the energy efficiency and use the renewable energy of the United States, we will need green collar workers to create, manufacturer, install, and maintain these new clean technologies. The range of jobs and skills requirements is wide, but the 

potential employment impact is substantial. In a recent analysis, 

the Clean Tech Venture Network estimated that as many as 

500,000 green collar jobs could be created by 2010. 

We know that green collar jobs are already growing and having 

a broad impact on the economy. As just one example, the U.S. ethanol industry clearly has already created 154,000 jobs throughout 

the nation’s economy in 2005 alone, boosting household incomes by 

$5.7 billion. But that is just a fraction of the potential jobs and economic growth that the green economy promises. 

Even now workers trained for traditional jobs are translating 

their skill into green industries. Petroleum engineers have become 

biofuel entrepreneurs. Steel mill workers have become windmill 

makers. And roofers have become powerplant builders, as they install solar electricity shingles so that buildings can produce their 

own electricity. 


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In many communities, green collar jobs will have multiple benefits. Pilot programs across the country are already using low-income weatherization programs to train people in the skills needed 

to upgrade the efficiency of buildings. 

Those families who increasingly struggle with the decision between heating and eating in the winter get warmer homes, lower 

energy bills, while trainees expand their job opportunities. In 2005, 

buildings accounted for nearly 40 percent of global warming pollution in the United States. So by combining upgrading homes and 

job training, global warming pollution will go down and the employment prospects of some of our poorest workers will go up. 

In America, as we become more efficient and more reliant on renewable energy, the dirty power generation, which currently exists 

disproportionately in low-income areas can be replaced, including 

these communities. And the economic expansion promised by the 

green economy has the potential to bring large numbers of people 

out of poverty, while improving the environment and public health. 

As FDR said about The New Deal, the test of our progress as a 

nation is not whether we do more for those who already have 

much, but whether we provide for those who have too little. The 

same is true for the green deal America now needs. In the green 

economy, opportunities must be available for the many, not just the 

few. 

I look forward to learning from today’s witnesses how the benefits of the green economy can be shared broadly. I now turn and 

recognize the gentleman from Wisconsin, the Ranking Member of 

the Committee, Mr. Sensenbrenner. 

[The statement of Mr. Markey follows:] 


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Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Today’s hearing is about jobs. Specifically, we are going to talk today 

about creating new jobs, a topic that Republicans know something 

about. Since Congress passed tax relief in August 2003, the economy has added 7.8 million jobs. 

I agree there is always room in the economy for more jobs and 

for better jobs, whether they are blue collar, white collar, or what 

seems to be the latest in workforce fashion green collar. We are 

likely to see today the Republicans and Democrats agree on the 

goal of job creation, but take different paths to reach that goal. 

I believe the free market forces of the private sector offer the 

best road to job creation. I think that relying on the government 

to create jobs is a dead end. One question I would like to see answered today is exactly what a green collar job is. 

One of our witnesses, Mr. Van Jones, wrote in Yes magazine that 

a green collar job includes construction work on a green building 

or even bicycle repair. Mr. Jones is devoted to creating more jobs 

and economic opportunities, and for that he is to be commended. 

He is also right to assert that some environmental projects will 

help create new jobs. 

But I do think it is important that we distinguish between the 

new jobs created to develop advanced technology and jobs that play 

a supporting role to green technology. The reason this is an important distinction is because part of today’s focus is on government 

job training programs. Already the Federal Government spends 

$5.3 billion annually on job training. States together spend $500 to 

$700 million each year. But the business community spends up to 

$56 billion per year. That is $56 billion with a B. 

I am worried that by creating big government programs for socalled green collar job training what we really would be doing is 

simply duplicating the job training programs that already exist. It 

seems to me that many of the green collar jobs require the same 

blue collar skill sets that are already addressed by job training programs in both the public and private sectors. 

Is construction of a green building that fundamentally different 

than constructing a traditional building? Is installing a solar panel 

fundamentally different than installing a satellite dish? I have serious questions about what type of job training will really be needed 

for the so-called green collar jobs. 

As Mr. Thelen says in his prepared testimony, with individuals 

who are in transition, it is tempting to encourage them to train for 

the next hot job, whether that is in health careers, information 

technology, or in this case green jobs. 

I think we need to be cautious about creating job training programs for jobs that don’t yet exist. Thanks to the private sector, 

these jobs may be just around the corner, but we shouldn’t rush to 

train the labor force for jobs that don’t yet exist and may not require special training anyway. 

I do think that there are ways to promote jobs that are directly 

related to green technology. In fact, I joined 388 of my colleagues 

in the House last month to approve a bill that I believe will help 

promote more green jobs. It is called the 10,000 Teachers, 10 Million Minds, Science and Math Scholarship Act. 


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It will create a scholarship program to encourage college students to become math and science teachers. These teachers will 

help to train a highly skilled workforce in the future. I firmly believe that we must look to advance technology in order to address 

global warming issues, and it seems that I am not the only one 

who believes that technology will play a big role in climate change 

policy. 

Promoting advanced technology in hybrid cars is the number one 

point in the Apollo Alliance’s plan for good jobs and energy independence. And I am happy that Mr. Jerome Ringo, Apollo Alliance’s president, is here with us, and I look forward to hearing 

what types of advanced technology have captured his interest. In March, the Bank of America announced a $20 billion program 

that will finance green programs, including mortgages on green 

buildings. Not to be outdone, Citigroup announced in May a $50 

billion 10-year program devoted to funding green projects. That is 

$70 billion for green projects without a single dollar coming from 

the taxpayers. 

Already many companies are talking about green initiatives, including Wal-mart, which recently announced it would place solar 

panels on at least 22 of their stores. If these companies need specially-trained employees, they certainly have the wherewithal to 

fund it on their own. 

Green collar jobs will be good for the economy, just like white 

and blue collar jobs. I think the private sector is already on the 

path toward putting people to work in the green collar jobs, but I 

am worried that more big government programs will only create a 

roadblock. 

I thank the chair and yield back the balance of my time. 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

The gentlelady from California, Ms. Solis, is recognized. 

Ms. SOLIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for inviting 

our witnesses that we are going to hear from today. I am sure they 

are going to have a lot of good information for us. But I do want 

to say that when we talk about the growth and innovation of the 

greening of our country, we can’t forget rural America or those lowincome areas. So when we think about Silicon Valley, think about 

also East Los Angeles, the Bronx, and Missouri. So we need to be 

thinking big picture here. 

I would also like to say that a part of what I see or envision here 

in this new era is that the environmental industries that are experiencing major job growth—and I want to quote a paragraph from 

a letter that I just received from the Mayor of San Francisco, Mr. 

Newsome. He said that they are experiencing major job growth, 

which includes green buildings, energy efficiency retrofit and service, renewable energy such as wind, solar, and biofuels. 

Being service-intensive, these industries produce high-quality 

jobs that are less vulnerable to outsourcing. I think a very, very 

important aspect of this is that we are trying to keep our jobs here 

within the parameters of the U.S.A. So I know we are going to hear 

about this. 

I am very excited about this opportunity and am looking at introducing legislation, along with my colleagues, Congressman Tierney, 

Congressman Miller, and Congressman McNerney, to see how we 


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could better serve, retrain, retrofit our workers who have lost jobs 

that have gone overseas, to keep them here, and then address the 

issue of our youth, underserved youth who we seem to be losing. 

They can also be a big magnet in attracting new innovation and 

getting them more involved in the new technological future in the 

environment. 

So I look forward to hearing from you and yield back the balance 

of my time. 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentlelady’s time has expired. 

The chair recognizes the gentleman from Arizona. 

Mr. SHADEGG. I thank the Chairman. And other than to commend you for holding this hearing, and note that our vibrant economy is responding with lots of market alternatives to the green jobs 

and creating green jobs, and that there are forces out there to try 

to fill the void, I will waive my opening statement. 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman waives his opening statement. 

The chair recognizes the gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Cleaver. 

Mr. CLEAVER. Mr. Chairman, I would waive my comments and 

use it during my questioning. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Cleaver follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. The chair recognizes the gentleman from New 

York, Mr. Hall. 

Mr. HALL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also look forward to hearing the testimony of our witnesses, and I waive my opening statement. 

The CHAIRMAN. Great. 

I thought I saw Mr. Sullivan. 

So let me then—let me begin now by recognizing our first witness. He is the President and Founder of the Ella Baker Center for 

Human Rights in Oakland, California. Mr. Jones has spent his career advocating for social and environmental justice and can point 

to the city of Oakland’s adoption of his Green Jobs Corps proposal 

as just one of his many successes. 

Mr. Jones, welcome. Whenever you are ready, please begin. 

STATEMENTS OF MR. VAN JONES, PRESIDENT AND CO-FOUNDER, ELLA BAKER CENTER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, OAKLAND, 

CALIFORNIA; MR. JEROME RINGO, PRESIDENT, APOLLO ALLIANCE, LOUISIANA; MS. ELSA BARBOZA, CAMPAIGN COORDINATOR FOR GREEN INDUSTRIES, STRATEGIC CONCEPTS 

IN ORGANIZING AND POLICY EDUCATION (SCOPE), LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; AND MR. BOB THELEN, CHIEF TRAINING OFFICER, CAPITAL AREA MICHIGAN WORKS, LANSING, 

MICHIGAN 

STATEMENT OF VAN JONES 

Mr. JONES. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and members. 

I am very glad to be here. 

Let me just jump right in. I really appreciated the comments 

from Mr. Sensenbrenner. I think they are right on point, and I 

want to get directly to them. First of all, I think all of us here can 

agree on at least three things. One is that, all things being equal, 

clean energy is better than dirty energy. We would rather have 

clean energy than dirty energy in our communities. It is more 

healthy for our children. 

Two, conserving energy is better than wasting it. The creator has 

given us so much energy we shouldn’t just, you know, waste it the 

way we are doing right now. And, third, if there is a way, and a 

smart way, to get a reduction in both poverty and pollution, we can 

cut both poverty and pollution, we would be foolish not to do so. 

So I think those three values we all share. The question is: what 

is the proper role for government? What is the proper role for markets? 

I want to make an argument that there is a proper role for government moving forward. Number one, as we move from a dirty energy, wasteful economy, to a conservation-based clean energy economy, we automatically create more jobs. Why is that? We create 

more jobs because it takes more people to do energy the right way. 

If you want one megawatt of energy, and you want to use, say, natural gas to do it, which is the cleanest of all the dirty energy forms, 

one megawatt of energy will give you one job for an American 

worker. One job. 

If you don’t go with the gas, and instead you go with geothermal 

or wind, you get six jobs. If you go with solar power, photovoltaic, 


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you get 22 jobs. So you create the same amount of energy, but you 

create many, many more jobs. The problem that we have right now, 

contrary to some of your earlier concerns, is that our workforce development is actually lagging and lagging dramatically behind this 

opportunity. 

We have the opportunity to grow the jobs, but we are already encountering labor shortages in Northern California where the green 

economy is moving forward most dramatically. Community colleges 

are not prepared, our vocational training programs are not prepared, and what we are hearing from eco-entrepreneurs themselves, the business leaders themselves in this field is that they are 

not getting the kinds of graduates from our programs that they 

need to be able to go to scale. So it is the business community from 

which we are hearing, at least in Northern California, that they 

need more help, they need better trained graduates. 

The challenge that we now face is that as you begin to meet the 

workforce development needs of the business community, the cities 

and local municipalities cannot retrofit ourselves fast enough. Our 

community colleges don’t have the money, they don’t have the resources to turn around on a dime and meet this need. We need federal help. We need—we recognize that the Federal Government 

does do some work for us, development. Frankly, it has been doing 

less and less over time. We think it is time now to begin to take 

advantage of this opportunity and to invest more and invest more 

dramatically. 

I also want to speak to Congresswoman Solis’ point. This is the 

biggest opportunity that any of us will have to begin to create 

green pathways out of poverty, to begin to build a green economy 

that is strong enough to lift people out of poverty. I, for one, am 

conservative enough, I believe in work. I believe people should 

work their way out of poverty. But for too long we have been telling 

people in the neighborhoods where I work, you are supposed to 

climb out of poverty, a six-story ladder with three rungs on it. 

We have got to start putting rungs back on the ladder of opportunity, and this green economy, this explosion of opportunity, 

means that we can actually begin to build green pathways out of 

poverty. If you teach a young person how to put up solar panels, 

that young person is on his or her way to becoming a solar engineer, an electrical engineer. They can join the United Electrical 

Workers Union. That is a green pathway to a union job out of poverty. 

You teach a young person to double pane glass, so that building 

does not leak so much energy, that young person is now on the way 

to becoming a glazer. That is a union job. That is a green pathway 

out of poverty. And for too long the young people in this country 

have only heard one thing from us older folks, which is don’t do 

drugs, don’t shoot each other, don’t get pregnant. And then we 

walk away from them, and we just leave them there to figure out, 

now what are they supposed to do. 

I hope that both parties will say to this generation of Americans, 

‘‘We have work for you to do.’’ We want to reboot; we want to retrofit this whole economy. We want to do energy in this country in 

a clean way, and by doing it in a clean way we want to take that 

handgun out of your hand and put a caulk gun in your hand. We 


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want to give you some hope and some opportunity to do something 

beautiful for your country. 

I think both parties should embrace that agenda. We don’t have 

any throw-away resources. We don’t have any throw-away species. 

We don’t have any throw-away children or neighborhoods either. 

Thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Jones follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Jones, very much. 

Next, we are going to hear from Jerome Ringo. He is the President of the Apollo Alliance. He has been employed for more than 

20 years in Louisiana’s petrochemical industry. He has firsthand 

experience in the challenges faced by workers and the communities 

near chemical plants and the benefits that green collar jobs can 

offer American workers. 

We welcome you, Mr. Ringo. Whenever you are ready, please 

begin. 

STATEMENT OF JEROME RINGO 

Mr. RINGO. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you 

to the Committee for inviting us here today. 

The Apollo Alliance is a coalition of labor activists, business and 

environmentalists, faith community, what have you, who believe 

that our nation can and must achieve a triple bottom line, and that 

is profitability and markets for a growing, clean energy future industry, curbs on global warming pollution and good jobs for American families. We have got to bring jobs back to America, reduce 

our dependency on foreign oil, and get off the oil barrel that we 

have been held over by foreign countries. We at Apollo believe that the ambitious $300 billion in federal 

spending over 10 years could create three million new good jobs for 

America. It would be a big win, but to win big we need to set forth 

and place the specific policy supports that seize the economic 

growth in jobs creation potential of new technologies. 

We should view the development of a cap and trade system as 

an opportunity to create major job investment funds that would be 

used to develop more secure, home-grown energy supplies, and create those good jobs. Such programs would control global warming, 

pollution twice, once by capping pollution, then by supporting the 

new generation of clean power sources. 

For instance, we would very much like—we very much like the 

idea enshrined in Senator Bingaman’s cap and trade bill to move 

and start the date of carbon auctions ahead of the start date for 

capping the emissions. That puts the horse properly in front of the 

cart by creating a new energy investment fund that could be used 

proactively to ease any employment issues that might arise later 

from global warming pollution controls. 

Likewise, we feel that we should match new regulations with 

positive job strategies. For instance, mandates to improve auto fuel 

economy should be packaged with the big retooling incentive to 

help the domestic auto industry transition to compete in the new 

marketplace. Also, any renewable energy standard will be more attractive if it is matched with loan guarantees for renewable energy 

manufacturing. That way we create jobs manufacturing wind turbines and solar panels, and at the same time the RES grows, and 

the market for renewable power. 

Our analysis estimates that a $300 billion investment would return $306 billion to the Treasury at the end of 10 years, so it pays 

for itself. And just a few suggestions on how we can ensure clean 

energy for good jobs investment fund delivers on its promise for 

good jobs for working Americans. First, we need to finance a big 

increase in clean energy research and development. 


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I know both chambers are moving ARPA–E legislation. However, 

please make sure America captures the jobs by requiring that any 

new and successful technologies be licensed for development and 

commercialization first here in the United States. To the greatest 

extent, these technologies should use domestic materials. 

Second, we need to establish a long-term certainty in the clean 

energy market. It is widely observed that inconsistent federal incentives have been a major barrier to clean energy development. A 

two- to three-year time horizon simply does not provide the assurance that project developers and component manufacturers need to 

justify investment decisions. 

And, third, we want to match long-term market support with 

manufacturing incentives. As the market grows, so should our ability to produce clean energy systems and system components. Renewable energy is growing fast in the United States, but European 

and Asian manufacturers now account for more than 85 percent of 

the global market. And we need to build up our renewable energy 

manufacturing by strengthening the Department of Energy’s Loan 

Guarantee Program, so it supports manufacturing of proven energy 

technologies, not just pilot projects. 

And, finally, we must do more to prepare the workforce for a 

green economy. We are proud to support Senator Sanders’ efforts 

to create a clean energy workforce development program. And Senator Sanders’ bill would not only ensure that we have the skilled 

workforce to meet the challenge, but it would also make sure that 

the jobs created are going to be jobs that people deserve and need 

the most. 

And, Senator Solis, thank you, as she prepares counterpart legislation in the House. That legislation is crucially important to Apollo’s strategy in creating clean energy and good jobs. 

The challenge for congressional leaders today will be to ensure 

that we all get there together, working men and women alongside 

industry, environmentalists, and our national security community. 

Thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Ringo follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Ringo, very much. 

Our next witness I would like to recognize is Elsa Barboza, the 

Campaign Coordinator for the Strategic Concepts in Organizing 

and Policy Education in Los Angeles. Her latest project involves developing a green career ladder training program to provide workers 

to upgrade the efficiencies of the L.A. city buildings. 

Ms. Barboza, thank you for your testimony this afternoon. 

STATEMENT OF ELSA BARBOZA 

Ms. BARBOZA. Good afternoon. My name is Elsa Barboza. I am 

representing SCOPE, a grass-roots organizing and policy institute 

in Los Angeles, and we convene a progressive alliance in Los Angeles called the Los Angeles Apollo Alliance. And what we are about 

is to take the second-largest U.S. city and shape its economy and 

transition its economy to a clean and sustainable and equitable 

economy, and to address poverty in Los Angeles. 

Thank you for having this hearing today on green jobs and global 

warming. It acknowledges that energy independence is a jobs issue. 

It is a workforce development issue. It is an equity issue. 

I just want to spend a little bit of time talking to you about what 

our green jobs campaign is, but let me give you the backdrop to the 

story. The backdrop is that in Los Angeles the low-income communities of color, like South Los Angeles, like East Los Angeles, face 

the same underlying systemic trends as other low-income major cities, other low-income communities in major cities. Economic restructuring and globalization, so those high-wage, long-term union 

jobs have been lost, and they have been replaced by low-wage, 

short-term temporary jobs. 

Shifts in public policy have rolled back the changes that have 

been made. Increased division along geographic racial and income 

lines resulting in 30 years of disinvestment in low-income and communities of color. Severe environmental inequity and crisis-level 

health impacts in poor communities. So according to the World 

Health Organization, in the United States such groups such as the 

inner city poor have extremely poor health, poor characteristic— 

more characteristic of a poor, developing country rather than a 

rich, industrialized one. 

I will skip over all of the data that talks about how one in four 

Latinos and African-Americans live in poverty. With all of that as 

a backdrop, we have—we are contributing to growing to the job sector of the green industry in Los Angeles. The L.A. Apollo Alliance 

is focusing political power toward shaping and transitioning to the 

new economy. 

Just in L.A. alone, billions of dollars in development are in the 

works right now for Los Angeles for the next two, five, ten years. 

In February of 2006, 23 labor community environmental groups 

came together to make sure that that development is going to be 

green. So we came together to create quality jobs in the new green 

industry and focus on the unionization of the new economy to ensure livable wage jobs and benefits for families. 

And we also came together to focus on the workforce development, training, and access for communities of color in low-income 

communities, to lead and establish the needed work to make the 

move to a clean energy economy. So our vision is to create a pipeVerDate Mar 15 2010 22:18 Aug 30, 2010 Jkt 057967 PO 00000 Frm 00027 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A967.XXX A967

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line that upgrades the skills of existing workers, backfills with new 

workers, and addresses the basic skills gap of low-income communities of color. 

Connecting to union apprenticeships, where there is a job at the 

end of the training, so that we are not doing training just for 

training’s sake; that we are creating healthier and safer communities and prioritizing the environmental uplift of inner city communities, and impacting the public sector to take leadership and 

grow and show a critical mass of results to move into the private 

sector. 

L.A. is unique in the level of collaboration and political leadership. We are poised to contribute a critical piece of the national 

strategy. Los Angeles’ Mayor Antonio Veragosa and other City 

Council members have committed to a partnership to shape a new 

economy in Los Angeles. 

Two things. One is the level of public education and organizing 

in Los Angeles is high. We collected over 6,000 signatures from 

Angelinos calling for this new economy. Over 15,000 Angelinos 

were educated and mobilized to vote using this division in the mission of the Apollo Alliance to gauge California propositions last fall. 

Why is there such a resonance? Because this really is a catapult 

to large-scale job creation in Los Angeles and in the country. It is 

a way to link community members to union jobs and other type 

jobs, as well as to promote environmental benefits of what is needed today. So how we are able to put together the progressive majority in Los Angeles, and in the country, we think that we have a 

model to do that. 

Our first campaign is around conducting an energy audit of city 

buildings to identify the sites and job potential, to make them energy and water efficient with those technologies, to create 2,000 

union jobs, to establish policies to see the development of local 

green building manufacturing in Los Angeles, and to establish a 

green career ladder training program to connect inner city communities to green jobs. 

And this is all in the short term. So the possibilities for the green 

economy to help reshape our country and the major cities is vast. 

Thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Barboza follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Ms. Barboza. 

And our final witness is Robert Thelen. He is the Chief Training 

Officer of Capital Area Michigan Works in Lansing, Michigan. Mr. 

Thelen has spent 35 years working with economic and workforce 

development programs and has vast experience with the needs of 

workers retraining for new careers. 

Thank you for your testimony this afternoon, Mr. Thelen. Would 

you turn on your microphone, please? 

STATEMENT OF BOB THELEN 

Mr. THELEN. Chairman Markey, Ranking Member Sensenbrenner, and distinguished members of the Committee, I am Bob 

Thelen, and I do appreciate being here today. 

Our mission at Capital Area Michigan works is to enhance the 

quality and productivity of people and businesses by providing a 

world of occupational choices. But what is the potential for green 

collar jobs in the United States? 

An environmentally conscious population is looking for responsible corporations who reduce, reuse, and recycle. They want to 

give these corporations their business, and, as a result, businesses 

are enjoying gains in brand-name recognition and consumer confidence. 

As world recognition increases the need for environmentally 

friendly lifestyles, many businesses are recognizing that staying in 

business has much to do with environmental responsiveness for 

consumers who are supporting the products and services that they 

deem to be environmentally friendly. I give specific examples in my 

testimony. 

We know that the employers that will keep America running in 

the future—and that will be important to the bottom line of America’s corporations—are those who have an understanding of environmental needs and specific business processes related to their 

needs. 

One of my areas of interest and where I have spent my career 

is helping young people and adults develop their career plans, and 

for adults who are dealing with transition, helped them move 

through that transition. We know that young people will be involved in eight to ten different careers during their lifetime. It is 

particularly vital that we understand the changes in our labor market and how we prepare individuals to enter and reenter the labor 

market. 

I think many of these green collar jobs are being filled by individuals with an existing set of knowledges and skills who are now 

choosing to apply these skills and knowledges to a new sector of 

the economy, i.e. green industries. This past winter I had an opportunity to spend a week in a training program at an ethanol facility, 

and it was very enlightening. 

And as I was reflecting on this, I realized that the typical ethanol 

facility has about 37 to 38 employees. Of those 38 employees, 32 

of them were involved in—were traditional manufacturing job classifications, such as maintenance and repair workers, equipment operators, and transportation and material movers. 


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The industries in which these individuals are applying their 

skills and knowledges may be new. However, the necessary knowledges and skills are not entirely new. 

And I noticed this: I went out to some of the green job boards, 

and I noticed the titles of the jobs that people were recruiting for 

were very traditional job titles, such as CFO, corporate attorney, 

technical services director. I even noticed that the company I 

worked for in college as a tree trimmer is now listed under green 

industry jobs. 

So in most cases we are not preparing people for green collar 

jobs. We are preparing people for jobs that, at this stage in their 

life, they are applying their skills to needs of industry that is focused on environmental concerns. As an example, a lab technician, 

who today works at a brewery, tomorrow may choose to work at an 

ethanol facility—a true example—and the person at the ethanol facility, he went to work for Seagrams. So go figure. 

So how do we understand and address these green jobs? I think 

the most critical thing is helping people like myself, our teachers, 

our workforce people, understand, what are these jobs? Are there 

some new jobs, or are many of them just transition—or just sort 

of places where people are applying a traditional set of skills in a 

new environment? So we need to figure out how to inform teachers. 

The main thing as I work with teachers and counselors is I am 

helping them use quality career information. We have to ensure 

that this information is out there, and the main way we do that 

is through federal publications, such as ONET, Career Infonet, and 

systems like that that are out there supported by the Federal Government. 

With students who are currently in high school or college, they 

have a longer timeframe. But it is so important we help these kids 

understand how they connect what they are learning in school to 

these real-world applications. We know that kids today who are in 

school must have high-quality jobs. 

Let me just close with this. In closing, I would like to reflect on 

what a 16-year-old student told me about 35 years ago when I 

asked him what he wanted to do. What he said to me is as appropriate today as it was then. ‘‘Don’t ask me what I want to do until 

you show me what there is to do.’’ Our responsibility is to help students connect academic studies to real-world jobs. 

Thank you very much, Chairman. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Thelen follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Thelen, very much. 

And now we will turn and recognize members of the Subcommittee to ask questions. I first recognize the gentlelady from 

California, Ms. Solis. 

Ms. SOLIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I would like to direct my question to Ms. Barboza. Thank you for 

talking about some of the barriers that you face out in South Los 

Angeles as well as East Los Angeles. Could you describe for this 

Committee how you go about engaging that community, so that 

they also understand the kinds of opportunities or challenges that 

they need to be ready for, and how you help prepare them? 

Ms. BARBOZA. We involve community members in policy development, and then helping to—so part of what that looks like is going 

door to door and talking to people about what have been the job 

barriers and the workforce development barriers. Lots of people 

have been through a job training program. Lots of people get a job 

training certificate, but a lot of people—but a lot of training programs are not focused around actual training programs that result 

in a good-paying job. 

So we try to take people’s experience and help to develop good 

training programs that are based on targeted industries that pay 

a high wage and a livable wage. We also do voter education as well, 

so to make sure that folks—and the values that we believe in and 

the issues that we think are important, that we take that to the 

ballot and we take those values to the ballot as well. 

Ms. SOLIS. If you could, and this is for the whole panel, what two 

concrete steps could the Federal Government take to help ensure 

that our workforce and our communities advance with technology? 

And I will start with Mr. Jones. 

Mr. JONES. Great. Well, before I get to that question, I just wanted to make sure—Mr. Sensenbrenner had asked a couple of questions that I didn’t get a chance to get to in my testimony. I wanted 

to make sure that you feel that you are getting taken care of by 

this panel. 

You asked what a green collar job is, and it came up on the panel 

as well. And there is a concern I think some people have this is 

just a bunch of hype, right? This is just another fancy way to package up, you know, traditional work. I want to be very clear: it is 

not. We are talking about new categories of work that, frankly, is 

stumping people who have been in the workforce for a while, let 

alone new entrants. 

For instance, geothermal heat pump jobs. That is not traditional 

HVAC. That is a new category of work to get homes heated and 

cooled by the earth. It is almost like using antifreeze in a house, 

very new stuff. Solar water heaters, somebody—you asked a question, is it any different to put up a solar panel than to put up a—— 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jones. 

Mr. JONES. Yes. 

The CHAIRMAN. I am going to recognize Mr. Sensenbrenner—— 

Mr. JONES. Sure. 

The CHAIRMAN [continuing]. In two minutes and 18 seconds. 

Mr. JONES. Sorry. Okay, good. 

[Laughter.] 

The CHAIRMAN. If you could answer Ms. Solis’ question—— 


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Mr. JONES. All right. 

The CHAIRMAN [continuing]. That would be helpful. 

Mr. JONES. That would be two concrete steps. 

Number one, do not leave cities and communities out on their 

own to try to figure out how to turn around our public schools and 

our vocational schools to meet this opportunity. The Federal Government needs to put money on the table to invest in us to be able 

to help our kids meet these opportunities. 

Number two, recognize that the new business community, the 

new eco-entrepreneurs, they are not as sophisticated as the established businesses. They don’t know how to come interact with you 

and ask you for what they need. So recognize that in order to help 

business, the new American business, you are going to have to 

meet them halfway, interact with them, engage with them. 

Don’t assume that the voices of business that you are hearing are 

the voices of American business in total. There are new businesses 

now that need your help in a new way. Listen to them. 

Mr. RINGO. This Committee is a Committee on—Select Committee on Energy Independence and Global Warming. And when 

you talk about what you can do, what you can do addresses both 

areas; one, when we talk about global warming, and we talk about 

work, building a workforce as a result of dealing with issues like 

global warming, energy independence. 

We have got to—you can level the playing field with respect to 

the good jobs and the training for those people that have been in 

the past disproportionately impacted by global warming, and that 

is mainly the poor and the people of color. 

I live in Louisiana. I am an evacuee of Hurricane Rita. And 

today I think it is going to be announced the activity for the upcoming hurricane season, which will probably be more active than 

last year. We didn’t even get one that hit the United States last 

year. We didn’t have one to do that. 

But when we talk about the intensity of those storms due to 

global warming, and then what do we do about reducing that impact on the environment and benefit from it, we want to make sure 

that those people that are disproportionately impacted also can get 

a piece of the pie with respect to the benefits of the new jobs and 

what have you. 

Surely, we talk about in building a green economy that there will 

be jobs created in retrofitted assembly lines to build hybrid cars, 

but poor people can’t afford hybrid cars. Poor people can’t afford to 

buy a Prius. And so, therefore, there must be legislation taking 

place by the gatekeepers—you, the policymakers—that are going to 

level the playing field and make it easier for the poor to reap the 

benefits of the good jobs and the training, and also not be disproportionately adversely impacted as they have been in the past. 

Ms. SOLIS. So we might have to target some of that funding to 

these kinds of particular rural or city/inner city areas. 

Mr. RINGO. Absolutely. 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentlelady’s time has expired. 

The chair recognizes the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Sensenbrenner. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 


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I have a comment for Ms. Barboza, and then a couple of questions for Mr. Ringo. Ms. Barboza, I listened to your testimony and 

the answers the previous questions quite carefully. And you seem 

to be advocating using tax dollars for community organizers, voter 

education program, and electoral and union organizing. 

I don’t think that tax dollars should be used for that purpose, because it is designed to achieve a political advantage rather than to 

train people to do jobs, whether it is green collar jobs or any other 

kind of jobs. And I would hope that you would rethink what your 

organization is doing, because I don’t think you are helping poor 

people get jobs by training them to be community organizers. You 

may end up winning a referendum question or electing somebody, 

but I don’t think that that is what we have in mind in terms of 

providing job retraining funds. 

That being said, Mr. Ringo, nuclear powerplants have on average 

400 to 700 jobs, depending upon how big they are, and these jobs 

pay an average of 36 percent higher than the average wages and 

salaries in local areas. Would you agree that these are green jobs, 

because nuclear power doesn’t omit any greenhouse gases? 

Mr. RINGO. Well, I believe that it is important as we go into this 

new green economy that we diversify our energy portfolio, but we 

diversify that portfolio with energy means that would not have adverse consequences to us. We don’t want to switch seats on a sinking ship. And I am not saying I am anti-nuclear, but I believe that 

nuclear has a place on that portfolio list if we can guarantee that 

spent nuclear waste can be properly disposed, and we don’t create 

adverse impacts on both the environment and people, as well as 

coal or other industries. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Okay. 

Mr. RINGO. So sure, you can create green jobs from them, but we 

want to make sure that those jobs are not jobs that are going 

to—— 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Now—— 

Mr. RINGO [continuing]. Equate into adverse consequences. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Now, that is fair enough. We do have a cap 

and trade system in existence in Europe, and one can buy carbon 

credits from that. The bottom has dropped out of the carbon credit 

market in Europe in the last six to eight months or so. 

I am concerned that the thrust of your testimony appears to be 

that we would be financing these green trading programs on the 

revenue that would be obtained through carbon credits. Don’t you 

think that is a little risky, given the volatility of the carbon credit 

market where it has been tried? 

Mr. RINGO. Well, you are right. The carbon credit market in Europe has been challenged, and I think that we have just got to find 

effective ways to generate the necessary revenue that it takes to 

invest in research and development, but also, as I said, level the 

playing field. 

You know, we are in our infancy with respect to what will work, 

and I think that it is important that organizations like myself, like 

Apollo Alliance and other organizations, give real considerations to, 

as I mentioned before, investing in ideas that will not have adverse 

impact on the economy or on this country as a whole. You know, 

if it is not working in Europe, it does not mean it is not going to 


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work here. But it is surely worth a try and worth the investment 

for us to see if we can find meaningful revenues to stimulate our 

economy and to level that playing field. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. I have one final question, and that is on 

the issue of CAFE standards for autos. 

Mr. RINGO. Yes. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. In your statement, you mentioned you support retooling incentives for the auto industry. 

Mr. RINGO. Yes. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Would you support CAFE standards being 

higher for the auto industry without the retooling standards even 

though it might cost unionized autoworkers their jobs? 

Mr. RINGO. Again, I am talking about a level playing field. It 

makes no sense to me to have standards that are going to have adverse consequences, and I believe that if—I believe that standards 

are important, but standards should not cost jobs. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Okay. 

Mr. RINGO. And so we strongly support the idea of standards, but 

let us make sure that we don’t create casualties as a result. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. I thank the gentleman. I yield back the 

balance of my time. 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

The chair recognizes the gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Cleaver. 

Mr. CLEAVER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

This has been a very interesting Committee hearing, as all of 

them have been thus far, and very instructive and informative. The 

issues that I think have been placed on the table today are ones 

that may be ideological as much as they are climatological, because 

we are actually dealing with whether or not the government has 

a role, and then how deeply should the government go in dealing 

with climate change and the industry that could be developed from 

it. 

If we talk about—and Ms. Barboza mentioned this, I think all of 

you hit on it a little—if we are talking about turning loose this 

great American ingenuity to create another industrial age, and this 

time minorities would have an opportunity to participate as the 

door opens as opposed to as it closed at the beginning of the 20th 

century, but when we talk like that, what inevitably surfaces is the 

ideological issue, and that is, well, you know, is this a jobs program? Is this, you know, some kind of social program? 

And I left the Committee hearing last week and went outside 

and two young men whom God loves stopped me and went off 

about how much of a hoax this whole issue is. And so if we are 

talking about taking advantage of this new technology or advancing a new technology, does it not present all kinds of issues that 

we have got to get beyond before we can make the kind of progress 

that we need? 

Mr. Jones. 

Mr. JONES. My great hope is that this is the one issue that we 

can be one country about. This really is the opportunity. At this 

point, nobody is proposing that the government is going to come in 

and fix it. What we are saying is we want to set our eco-entrepreneurs up to succeed. We want to give the ecological entreVerDate Mar 15 2010 22:18 Aug 30, 2010 Jkt 057967 PO 00000 Frm 00048 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A967.XXX A967

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preneurs a world-class—as our colleague said, a world-class workforce, so they can meet a world-class challenge. 

Now, I can’t imagine that anybody here thinks that the government has no role in education. I think all of us agree that one of 

the great strengths of the American system is that we do have a 

public education system, and that we have invested in it. What I 

hope will happen is that we will use what we already agree on, 

which is that young people and displaced, our veterans coming 

home, deserve an opportunity to get well trained to be a part of 

this new opportunity. I hope that this green wave can lift all boats. 

Mr. CLEAVER. I agree with you. But if we start—the moment we 

say it has great opportunity for minorities, for whatever reason, 

that also—— 

Mr. JONES. Well, I think that—we have now decided I think as 

a country that affirmative action is something we are moving away 

from. I think we have decided as a country that we see—— 

Mr. CLEAVER. Well—— 

Mr. JONES. I am just—I think it is unfortunate. I am a product 

of affirmative action. I went to college and everything else on minority scholarships, but it seems to me that that is something that 

we don’t want anymore. It seems to me that we are concerned 

about welfare. 

At some point, there has to be a ladder of opportunity that we 

hold for people. Let them climb that ladder, but there has got to 

be a ladder of opportunity. I think this is our best opportunity to 

build that ladder, and I hope that we can be one country on this. 

If we can’t be one country on this—— 

Mr. CLEAVER. Let me ask—thank you. Let me ask—go ahead, 

Ms. Barboza. 

Ms. BARBOZA. Well, put the ideological aside, I mean, I think 

that federal policy needs to include policy that is based on data, 

and that data needs to talk about creating policy based on the 

labor market trends. And so look at that from the climate change, 

energy independence way, and look at that labor market. 

Do long-term planning for equitable economic development that 

creates quality job opportunities where there are jobs, where the 

are interventions that can be made, look at and support workforce 

development to ensure hard skills training to address the skills 

gap. We all know there is a skills gap in this country. Supportive 

services and support overall regional economic development strategy, and that is really what this is about is that this isn’t just an 

environmental issue, but this is an economic issue, and we need to 

create federal policy that is based on all of those. 

Mr. CLEAVER. Thank you. Are any of you familiar with the Chicago Climate Exchange? 

Mr. JONES. None of us are experts on it, but—— 

Mr. CLEAVER. The truth of the matter is, we would not even be 

selling ethanol at the few stations in this country where it is sold 

but for the federal subsidy. Without the federal subsidy, this would 

not be anything going on in this country. 

I guess the point I am making is that the Federal Government 

has a history of always stepping in to launch projects and programs 

that are in the interest of the government. And I am not—in the 

interest of the country. I am not suggesting that we just open up 


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the bank and say, you know, anybody with a green thumb come in 

and take as much as you can get in a wheelbarrow. But do you not 

believe that the Federal Government should play a major role in 

getting us off into a new direction with regard to green technology? 

Mr. JONES. Yes. 

Mr. RINGO. Absolutely. And by virtue of the opportunity, we are 

faced with an opportunity, as Van Jones mentioned, that we have 

never been faced within our history. Not only—and it is an opportunity driven by the events of our time, under the umbrella of global warming. We are seeing events associated with global warming 

that are unprecedented that are affecting the lives of people in a 

way like it never has before. Katrina was that example. 

The gas prices at the gas pump are a prime example. Being held 

over the oil barrel by foreign governments with respect to our dependency on foreign oil is a prime example. And so this is a galvanizing issue that can galvanize America, and there could be benefits from it that puts America back to work again, stimulates our 

economy in a way like it has never been before. We are going to 

create a new green economy. 

As I keep alluding to, we have just got to make it a level playing 

field to where all America benefits from the solutions that we are 

pursuing. That has not always been done in the past, but we have 

an opportunity to do it now. It will require some government intervention. 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

Mr. CLEAVER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. I have been informed that there are five roll calls 

on the House floor. We have time to recognize Mr. Shadegg for his 

questions. 

Mr. SHADEGG. I will waive. 

The CHAIRMAN. We can recognize, then, the gentlelady from 

Michigan for her time, but then we will have to recess and come 

back, if that would be the wish of the members, for any additional 

members. Would that be the wish of the Committee, to come back? 

Mr. HALL. I will submit written comments. 

The CHAIRMAN. All right. We will ask the indulgence of the witnesses to stay here, then, for about 25 minutes. I will return. If any 

members return, I will recognize them. And if they do not, then I 

will ask my questions, and then the hearing will end. 

The chair recognizes the gentlelady from Michigan, Ms. Miller, 

for five minutes. 

Ms. MILLER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will try to be brief 

here. 

I was just very, very pleasantly—I shouldn’t say surprised, but 

it was pleasant to hear Mr. Ringo say that—and I wrote this 

down—that standards should not cost jobs. And you were responding to Mr. Sensenbrenner’s question about CAFE standards, and, 

of course, higher CAFE standards are absolutely going to cost jobs. 

And I am just wondering if you could flesh out for me a bit when 

you talked about supporting retooling incentives, or perhaps a 

question for any of you, what incentive the Federal Government 

could actually provide to devise some assistance for the Big Three 

for the auto jobs that will be lost when the higher CAFE standards 

happen. 


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Mr. RINGO. Well, when you talk about a new green economy, and 

surely I think when we talk about a new green economy we are 

talking about good jobs, but we are talking about new jobs, and 

there are going to be opportunities for new jobs that are going to 

take the place of those lost jobs. 

Now, I am surely not saying that there will be an automatic 

major job loss because of CAFE standards. What I am saying is 

that there has to be a balance in that we do not overregulate ourselves to where it does cost jobs. I think that we will have to make 

the necessary adjustment to minimize the economic impact. 

But for those that lose their jobs, we are looking at a creation 

of new good jobs in the area as a result of the research and development of new alternatives that would keep America working. It 

doesn’t necessarily mean that they will keep the same jobs they 

have. Some people will lose jobs, but at least they won’t remain unemployed. There will be new opportunities for new jobs if we promote this research and development. 

And because there is a sense of urgency to do something when 

you talk about global warming, and the increase of carbon dioxide 

to the atmosphere, there is a sense of urgency. We have got to respond, because we have not responded properly in the past. 

Ms. MILLER. I appreciate that. So do you think it is appropriate, 

then, for the Federal Government to assist the Big Three as they 

transition from what will be most certainly a loss of jobs because 

of higher CAFE standards? 

Mr. RINGO. I think the—— 

Ms. MILLER. Maybe any of you could answer. 

Mr. RINGO. I think the responsibility of the American government is to assist creation of new jobs which would benefit the Big 

Three as well as any other job losses that occur in any field anywhere in the country. 

Ms. MILLER. Do any of the rest of you have a comment on that? 

Mr. Jones? 

Mr. JONES. Yes, this is a tough one, obviously. I think two 

things. One, it is really not clear to me—and I am not being ideological about it. It is really not clear to me that the CAFE standard, changing that is going to cost jobs. I know that people are trying desperately to buy hybrids, they are trying desperately to buy 

more fuel efficient cars. I think that we could be actually, you 

know, seeing a renaissance for Detroit by giving Detroit the encouragement to do what really I think there is a pent-up market demand for anyway, number one. 

Number two—— 

Ms. MILLER. ‘‘The encouragement’’ meaning the Federal Government encouraging them? 

Mr. JONES. Yes, ma’am. Yes. 

Ms. MILLER. So you are talking about federal—— 

Mr. JONES. At this point, we are talking sort of in theoretical 

terms. So I am saying that I just want to challenge gently your assumption that changing the CAFE standards would create huge 

dropoffs. I am not convinced that that is true. It could be true; it 

could not be true. I just want to challenge it gently. 

But the other point I want to make is simply this. Detroit is 

hurting. The health care bills that the Big Three are carrying are 


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tremendous. I don’t—they get kind of termed as a political football. 

To me, Detroit is not a political football. I have got family there. 

I think that we have got to do a better job of helping Detroit deal 

with some of these legacy costs, help Detroit catch up to where I 

think the pent-up market demand is. Now, how we help, we may 

disagree, but I like the idea of health care, you know, for hybrids, 

that kind of a tradeoff where we maybe help Detroit with some of 

their health care costs if they are willing to transition over. 

We have got to be smarter about how we partner with our business community, both the new eco-entrepreneurs and those existing businesses that want to go in the green direction. I don’t have 

the final answer on that, but I do think that we should not retreat 

into ideological camps on this. It is too important for working people in Detroit. 

Ms. MILLER. You know, just one other question, and, Mr. Thelen, 

I appreciate you being here as well. But it is—I think it is clear 

from all of the studies, at least all of the domestic autos believe it, 

the United Auto Workers believe that they will—this will cost a 

huge job loss. Are you working with the UAW to assist some of 

these displaced auto workers which are just about to happen here 

with these higher CAFE standards, thousands, hundreds of thousands perhaps? 

Mr. THELEN. Yes. I have spent the last 15 years of my life working with UAW in one capacity. We have developed world-class 

training programs with them, and, really, have worked with a lot 

of UAW folks as they go into—as they go through a transition. It 

is very difficult. 

They have been used to a lifestyle, in terms of a wage, and it is 

hard for many of these people to understand that there is a different market out there than what they have been involved with 

for 25 years in terms of what they—how the market values their 

skill set. And so the only way they will get back up is if they increase their skills. 

The CHAIRMAN. I apologize to the gentlelady. I wanted to—— 

Ms. MILLER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. I wanted to give Mr. Hall just two minutes, so 

he could ask his question, and then that is all the time we will 

have left. 

Mr. HALL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Two minutes. 

Mr. HALL. Just quickly, I have had a number of conversations 

with the UAW folks in my neck of the woods who are—who share 

the opinion that I hold, which is that the decisions made by management have drastically hurt the American auto industry. And believe me, it is struggling without our giving them any further encouragement or direction. 

I think that it would help if they were encouraged to make the 

kind of cars that their own employees would like to drive, not what 

the Madison Avenue power and speed and sexiness lobby and the 

whole advertising business wants them to try to sell us. 

I also wanted to comment regarding nuclear power being green. 

I hold that it is not. It is not renewable, it is not green, it is not 

new, it is not alternative. It is a 50-year-old technology, and were 

it not for giant subsidies from this government, including insuring 


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every nuclear plant, the taxpayer insures via the Price Anderson 

Act every nuclear plant in the country, there would never have 

been a single plant built, because they can’t stand up in the market. 

And they still can’t stand up in the market, so I personally—I 

have one in my district that is leaking strontium-90 and tritium 

into the—not just the groundwater and the Hudson River but now 

into the sewer system of the town of Buchanan where the plant 

sits. So that is supposedly a closed system. 

If it can leak into the sewer system, which just came out last 

week, and possibly into the water system, into people’s wells, and 

so on, and we don’t need terrorism when we have got leaking nuclear plants in our neighborhoods, not to mention the fact that Mohammad Atta wrote about this plant as a potential target in papers 

that were found after 9/11. 

So I look forward to what I think will be a development across 

the board from high-tech all the way to low-tech installation of passive solar and that sort of thing. 

And I thank the Chairman for the time. 

The CHAIRMAN. Great. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

There are three minutes left on the House floor for this roll call. 

The hearing will recess for about 20 minutes, and we will come 

back. If any members wish to ask questions, please come back at 

that time. 

[Recess.] 

The CHAIRMAN. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for 

sticking around. The unpredictability of the House floor schedule is 

something that is ultimately an adjustment that each of us has to 

make to our own lives, and the vagaries are so unpredictable they 

do lead to discomfort not only for witnesses and for those in the 

audience, but also for the members of Congress themselves. We 

will let it stay there. 

We will now turn—and I will recognize myself for a round of 

questions for five minutes. If any members come, then they will be 

recognized. And if they don’t, that will be the conclusion of the 

hearing. 

For all the witnesses, we have seen a number of analyses projecting large numbers of jobs that the green economy can create. 

From your work in your communities, what policies are needed to 

make green collar jobs live up to their potential? Mr. Thelen? 

Mr. THELEN. I think the first thing we have to do is—and I am 

coming from a background of working in workforce development 

and career development—is help all of us practitioners understand 

what is the skill set necessary for these green jobs. How are we 

going to communicate to people the difference between these green 

jobs and a traditional job, i.e., let us say a construction worker? 

How are we going to help that construction worker know what additional set of skills they need to function in this new environment? 

And one of the roles of the Federal Government should be is to provide us good data on these emerging jobs. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jones, do you think because Germany and 

Japan don’t have any oil or natural gas that their adoption of this 

green collar agenda is something that comes more naturally to 

them, but here in America, the oil, the gas, the coal industry, 


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serves as a powerful counterbalance, so that we don’t make the 

transition and ultimately we could lose these job opportunities to 

other countries? 

Mr. JONES. You know, American exceptionalism is always a mystery in any number of directions. So it is hard for me to know. 

What I do know is that the opportunity that we have for—— 

The CHAIRMAN. I think you do know, Mr. Jones. 

Mr. JONES. Okay. Well—— 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. JONES [continuing]. Not in the time that we have remaining. 

A couple of things which were raised earlier and weren’t fully addressed, just to make sure that we get them. Number one, the 

workforce development stuff does need to have business and labor 

and community at the table. Number two, each community will be 

different. The green economy in North Carolina will look very difficult than it looks in California, and so we do need to make sure 

that each community is able to design its own strategy with support from the Federal Government. 

The CHAIRMAN. Great. 

Ms. Barboza, what is the single biggest problem in your mind in 

ensuring that these jobs actually get to the workers who are the 

next generation of blue collar/green collar workers? In your mind, 

what is the single biggest obstacle? 

Ms. BARBOZA. I think workforce development, training and workforce development dollars. So I think that a lot of—the question 

right now is: who pays, right? So is it the employer? Is it the government? Is it the workers or the unemployed themselves? 

So I think that that is really one of the biggest—it is going to 

take some time to do, and that is one of the biggest barriers is 

thinking through a workforce development strategy that is in collaboration with a larger economic strategy or with a regional economic strategy. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thelen, you are from Michigan? 

Mr. THELEN. Yes, sir. 

The CHAIRMAN. There are obviously a large pool of skilled manufacturing workers there. Have you seen any gravitational pull towards Michigan, trying to take advantage of these manufacturing 

job skills that already exist in terms of new companies starting up 

there and trying to move into these new energy technologies? 

Mr. THELEN. Yes, we have. Just two days ago there was a large 

article in our State Journal, Lansing State Journal, our paper, 

talking about a manufacturing company that had been aggressive 

and they make housings for cars, parts for cars, and they were just 

awarded a contract that would allow them to hire 200 people because they are now making—they are making the same types of 

parts for large wind farms. And so we have seen that. 

We have also seen a large company that is now—or a startup 

company that is making special shingles that can be used for solar 

energy. So we are starting to see that. I think it is a difficult transition for some of us. 

The CHAIRMAN. Here is what I am going to do. I am going to give 

each one of you one minute to summarize what you want the Subcommittee—the Select Committee on Energy Independence and 


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Global Warming to know about your testimony and what you want 

us to retain in our minds as we are moving forward this year. 

Mr. Jones, whenever you are ready, please begin. 

Mr. JONES. Thank you. First, I want to enter into the record 

these two reports. One is called Community Jobs in the Green 

Economy. That was done by the Apollo Alliance and Urban Habitat, for which I wrote the forward. And the other is New Energy 

for Cities, also by the Apollo Alliance. This really answers many of 

the questions that came up, and I just want to make sure they 

are—— 

The CHAIRMAN. So in a way, I didn’t make a mistake. You are 

being Mr. Ringo right now. 

Mr. JONES. Exactly. [Laughter.] 

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, it will be entered in the 

record. 

And let me then recognize you, Mr. Jones. 

Mr. JONES. Good, thank you so much. So, and I am happy to do 

that for him. 

The other things I think are important—I think that we need a 

paradigm shift in our discussion about environmental solutions. 

The first shift is away from talking about environmental problems, 

talking about environmental solutions more, which I think we are 

well on the way to. But the other is to think every environmental 

solution that comes across your radar screen, if you would subject 

it to the lens, where are the jobs, how can we use this to increase 

jobs for poor people, wealth-building opportunities, entrepreneurial 

opportunities for poor people, improve health for poor people? 

If we just begin to apply that lens to the entire discussion, I 

think it will radically transform the way that the public as a whole 

relates to this. Eco-elitism, for lack of a better term, will not save 

this country. Eco-populism, as a strategy that says we are going to 

pull the country together to solve the toughest problem ever, finally 

unleash American ingenuity on this problem, to your earlier point, 

I think is a majoritarian strategy for uniting the country. 

The CHAIRMAN. So eco-elitism, bad. 

Mr. JONES. Eco-populism—— 

The CHAIRMAN. Eco-populism, good. 

Mr. JONES. Good. 

The CHAIRMAN. And eco-entrepreneurs, excellent. 

Mr. JONES. Excellent. 

The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Barboza. 

Ms. BARBOZA. I also want to enter into the record three different 

studies on training in the sectorial industries, and looking at—so 

three things. One is we have a study coming out called Green Cities, Green Jobs that is going to look at Los Angeles as a case study. 

Also, as a case study to look at policy financing. 

We also have another study called Under the Line that looks at 

L.A. employment and the training needs for Los Angeles communities, as well as lessons from a Career First Program, which 

brought together public sector jobs with people on assistance. And 

those are models that we can learn from and do large—have a larger impact on the work that we are doing now with green jobs and 

the green industry. 


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I just want you to know that the decisions, the federal policy, the 

discussions that are happening right now impact real lives and impact real families and on a very large scale. So we have the opportunity to do something here that is going to change generations, 

and just as the manufacturing industry did for our generation and 

our communities. And so I would just ask you to think big. 

The CHAIRMAN. Will do. Thank you, Ms. Barboza. 

And you have the final word, Mr. Thelen. 

Mr. THELEN. Thank you. It will be short. I think the—I will go 

back to I think what the Federal Government should be doing is 

bringing together this information and ensuring those of us who 

work in the field have a clear understanding of, number one, what 

do we mean by green jobs, and, number two, what is the next step? 

What is the call to action that we in the field should be doing to 

help our young people understand these new opportunities? Because they are the ones who are going to benefit the most from 

this, and so that is what I would hope. 

I don’t like my information to come from a biased source. I trust 

the information that comes out by labor market individuals, and 

that is what I would like to see. 

The CHAIRMAN. I thank you, Mr. Thelen. I think you are right 

on the money. I think our panel is right on the money. We are at 

the dawn of a revolution. Actually, it has already begun, and it is 

driven by the green generation. This younger generation does understand it. They do understand that it is a huge issue that we 

have to deal with and that the solutions are available. Our job is 

to make this transition in an effective way. 

When the old economy was dying in Ireland, my young grandparents got on a boat and headed for the United States of America, 

right into the mills of this Industrial Revolution that was unfolding. But it kept moving along. Different resolutions just kept succeeding it. 

And so now it is our job not only to create this revolution, put 

in place the policies that make it possible for it to unfold in a telescope timeframe, but also prepare the workers of the country, so 

that we can move them in and so that we can capture the lion’s 

share of the opportunity, which the global economy is going to 

present, because I think that this is going to become a global revolution, and we should be the leader and our workers should be the 

principal beneficiaries across the planet. 

We thank each of you for your testimony, and any other comments you wish to add will be included in the record. 

And with that, and with the thanks of the Committee, this hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 5:21 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 


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