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Sheet 47 of 117P. 2

MEETING SUMMAR

Y STAKEHOLDERMEETIN G SECTOR-BASE

D APPROAC H January 13, 2000 

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Q
EP A AI R DOCKE T The meetin g wa s hel d i n th e Polari s Rooma t th e Ronal dReagaiTBuilding and Internationa

l Trade Center , 130

0 Pennsylvani aAvenue , Washingto n D C 20004
. Th e meetin g bega n a t approximately 10:00 a

man d close da t approximatel

y 3:3 0 pm . Attache di s alis t of attendees
. INTRODUCTION Bo b Perciasep e (EP

A Assistan

t Administrator

fo r Ai r andRadiation ) opene dth e meetin g wit h som e introductor

y remarks
. H e note dtha

t EP A ha s been workin g o n Ne w Sourc e Revie w (NSR ) refor mfo r alon g time , and tha

t there wer e thre e piece s o f

refor munder consideration
. First , there i s th e revie w o f NS Rprope

r - lookin g to clarify , simplify , an dimprov e th e bas e program . Second , there i s th e plantwide applicabilit y limi t (PAL) concept , wit

h whic h EP

A ha s had som e succes s unde

r Projec t X L experimentation
. Third , there i s th e sector-base dapproac h tha t wil l b e discusse d today
. Mr
. Perciasep e note dtha t EP A i s intrigue db y thi s approac h tha t ha s been derive d fro

mstakeholde

r ideas , andwantedt o lear

n mor e abou t ho w i t woul dwork
. Mr
. Perciasep e the n gav e hi s vie w o f NSR
. Th e intent

o f NS Ri s that , ove

r time , a s capita l infrastructur

e i s improve d (through ne w capacity , efficiency improvements , rebuilds) , cleane r unit s wil l result
. A fundamenta l concep t i s tha t a s capita l stoc k improves , there shoul d b e a n improvemen

t i n emissio n profiles
. H e wondere di f thi s concep t

might b e mor e easil y achieve d b y lookin g a

t thi s mor e holisticall y o n asector

basis
. Mr
. Perciasep e cautione d tha t EP A wa s no t unveilin g ane w proposa

l today
. H e wa s awar e tha t th e meetin g wa s receivin g medi aattention , andwante dt o b e clea r tha t th e purpos e o f thi s meetin g wa s t o shar

e thinkin g on wha

t th e issue s are . EP

A structure dth e meetin g t o promot e cross-fertilizatio n o f

ideas
. Th e proces s i s a

t ajuvenil e stage , andwrough t wit h hurdles
. Th e sector-base d approac h i s aconcept EP A i s intereste din
. EP

A ha s don e som e thinkin g o f

th e approach , and note d tha

t ther e ar e emerging theme s andsom e consensu s o n wha

t th e approach migh t include
. Durin g today' s meeting , EP A will presen

t som e of it s preliminar

y thinking
. Mr
. Perciasep e als o wanted to ensur e tha t ther e wa s n o mis-communicatio n wit h member s of

Congress
. He assured tha

t EP A will no t d o anythin g no t

i n keepin g wit

h th e law
. If thi s approach move s forward , EP A wil l us e the norma

l process , beginnin g wit

h aNotic e of Propose d Rul e Making , etc . which wa s stil l dow n th e road
. Pag e 1P. 3

Mr
. Perciasep e joke d tha

t peopl e lookin g fo

r new s shoul datten dth e Administrator' s new s conferenc e a

t noo n rather

than atten dthi s stakeholde r meeting
. OPENIN G REMARKS Bil l Harnet

t (Actin g Director , EP

A Informatio n Transfe

r an dProgra mIntegratio n Division ) the n discusse d th e groun d rule s fo r th e meetin g andaske dfo

r cooperatio n i n stickin g t o th e timetabl e fo

r th e meeting
. H e briefly wen t ove r th e Agend afo

r th e meetin g tha

t wa s distribute d t o al l attendees
. Se e Attachmen t I fo r th e distribute dAgenda
. Mr
. Harnet

t aske d eac h perso n a

t th e mai n tabl e t o state thei r name an daffiliation
. Th e following peopl e wer

e seate d a t th e table : Bo b Perciasep e (Assistant

Administrator , EPA/OAR

) Joh n Seit z (Director , EPA/OAQPS ) Bil l Harnet

t (Divisio n Director , EPA/OAQPS/ITPID ) Karen Blanchar

d (EPA/OAQPS/ITPID ) Kath y Kaufma n (EPA/OAQPS/ITPID ) Ala n Ecker t (EPA/OPAR) Ann aWoo d (EPA/OPAR) Gre g Foote (EPA/OGC ) Bruc e Buckhei t

(EPA/OECA ) Ric h Fishe r (Federa l Lan d Manager) Joh n Bunya k (Federa l Land Manager

) Christin e Shave

r (Federa l Land Manager

) Christophe

r Jame s (Stat

e of Connecticut

) Praveen Ama

r (Northeas t

State s fo r Coordinate dAi

r Us e Managemen

t - NESCAUM ) Willia mO'Sullivan (State o f

Ne w Jersey ) Bil l Becke r (STAPPA/ALAPCO ) John Pau l (Dayto n Regiona l Air Pollutio n Contro l Agency ) Jo e Goffma

n (Environmenta

l Defens e Fund ) Charle s McPhedra

n (Pen n Futures ) Davi d Woole

y (Clea n Ai r Tas k Force ) Davi d Hawkin s (Natura

l Resource s Defens e Council ) Beck y Stanfiel d (U S Publi c Interes t Research Group ) Michael Florentin o (Clea

n Ai r Council ) Sue Hedma

n (Environmenta

l La w Center ) Conra d Sneide r (Clea n Ai r Tas k Force ) Bil l Grant (Izaa k Walto n League ) Larr y Shapiro (N

Y Publi c Interes t

Researc h Group ) Mar k Brownstei n (Clea

n Energ y Group ) Michae l Bradle y (Clea

n Energ y Group ) Pag e 2P. 4

Joe l Bluestei n (EEA/Trigen ) Bil l Bumper s (Clas s of

85 ) Rob Brubake

r (Ohi o Utilities ) Mar k Hal l (Trigen ) Quinla n She a(Ediso n Electri c Institute ) Henr y Nicke l (Utilit

y Ai r Regulator y Group ) Greg Signe

r (Tennessee Valley Authority ) Ra e Cromille r (NRECA ) Bo b Sussma n (Cinergy/WEPCO )
OVERVIE

W O F NS RALTERNATIV

E SECTOR-BASE

D APPROAC H Kath y Kaufina n (EPA/OAQPS/ITPID ) the n mad e apresentatio n of

EPA' s idea s and question s regardin g th e sector-base d approach
. See Attachmen t I I fo r Ms
. Kaufman' s slides
. Slid e 1 - Goa l Slide 2 - Genera

l Framewor

k Slide 3 - Basi c Requirement s Slide 4 - Overal l Issue s Slide 5 - Basi c Requirement s Issue s Slide 6 - Shoul d Ther

e B e Trading ? Slid e 7 - Trading/Averagin g Issue s Slide 8 - Stat

e and Federa

l Role s Slide 9 - Timeframe s and Targe t Level s BASI C REQUIREMENT S DISCUSSION Mr
. Harnet

t the n asked th e grou

p to begi n considerin g th e issue s raise din Ms
. Kaufinan' s presentation
. H e first

aske d whethe

r th e sector-base dapproach shoul db e limite dto coal-fire d units , or whethe r i t shoul d include othe

r fue l types . Henr y Nicke l (Hunto n & Williams , representin g Utilit y Ai r Regulator y Grou p - UARG ) thought that th e integrate d approach propose db y UARG fo r th e utilit y industr y wa s agoo d idea , and tha t th e industr

y als o supported abackstop program . H e saidtha t possibly th e so-calle d "off-ramp " coul d b e focused o n coal-firedplants
. H e stressed , however , tha t change s t o th e basi c program , suc h a s th e potential-to-potentia l o r maximu mhourl y test , ar e stil l desire db y al l o f

. industry , an d shoul d cove

r all unit s includin g oil

- andgas-firedunits
. Mr
. Harnet

t indicate d tha

t EP A wa s evaluatin g how to giv e source s flexibilit y andaske d wha t th e basi c principle s of

the sector-base dapproach shouldbe
.

Pag e 3P. 5

Bo b Sussma n (representin g Cinergy , WEPCO ) questione dwhethe r NS Rwa s th e prope

r mechanis mfo

r thi s typ e o f

program . H e note dtha

t a n integrate dstrateg y fo

r th e utilit y industr y i s important , but

wa s no t convince d tha

t i t wa s practica

l t o us e NS Ra s th e vehicl e fo r th e integrate d strategy . H e suggeste d a n alternativ e strateg y tha

t "achieve s broader , multi-pollutan t environmenta

l goals " and presente d th e followin g si x principal s tha t shoul dgover

n suc h an integrate d strategy : 1
. Long-ter

mregulator

y certaint y andstabilit

y 2
. Comprehensiv e (curren

t v s future , al l pollutant s i n asector) 3
. Contro l levels/date s shoul d b e tie d to publi c healt h andenvironmenta

l goals , andno t

simply base d o n availabl e technolog y 4
. Broa d participatio n fromindustr y (otherwis e emission s reductio n ma y no t b e significant

an d ma y resul t i n competitiv e disadvantage s fo r thos e wh o participate ) 5
. Market-base d tool s neede d (pointe dto Titl e I V an dNO x SI P call a s models ) 6
. Stil l nee d to streamlin e basi c NS Randmak e it flexibl e t o allo w efficiency improvements
. Mr
. Sussma

n state d tha

t NS Rwa s no t

th e vehicl e to achiev e thes e elements
. Rather , h e indicate d tha t Cinergy , WEPCO , and TV A ha d draftedaMemorandu

mo f Understandin g (MOU) , calle d th e "Partnership fo

r a n Integrate d Strategy...." , callin g fo r a n integrate dstrateg y fo

r SOx , NOx , C02 , an d mercur y tha t woul d b e ai

r qualit y based , no t

contro l technolog y based
. Th e MOU woul d set goal s an d legally bindin g emissio n limits , andtha t EP A woul dno t

interfer e ove r th e time period
. H e indicate d tha t th e MO U woul dno t

b e exclusively base do n NSR , bu t woul d include NS Ra s apart . Othe r program s include din th e MO U wouldb e PALs , cap-and-trad e etc . Onc e agreemen

t wa s reache d o n th e MOU , rule s woul db e pu t i n plac e t o mak

e limit s legall y enforceable
. H e di d no t

kno w whethe

r there wa s sufficien

t authorit y i n th e Clea

n Air Ac t fo r thi s approach , and therefor

e ma y nee d legislatio n to implemen t it
. He sai dtha

t th e MOU coul dserv e a s aframework

fo r pursuin g legislation
. H e indicate dtha t th e fleshed-out

MOU woul db e availabl e i n th e nea

r future
. Mr
. Perciasep e acknowledge d th e questio n of whethe r NS Rwa s th e proper

vehicl e fo r a n integrate d utilit

y strategy , an

d indicate dtha

t i t coul db e discusse dseparately
. Mr
. Harnet t indicate d that

th e MOU shoul d include C O andparticulate matte r (PM)
. Joe l Bluestei n (EEA/Trigen ) state dtha t wit h respec t to th e goa l o f providin g certaint

y and flexibilit y mentione d i n Ms
. Kaufman' s presentation , th e sector-base dapproac h coul dno t b e limite d t o asmal l segmen

t of th e industr

y andtha t th e entire broa

dsector shoul db e looke d at , e.g. , i t shoul d cover

al l powe r generation , no t

jus t utilities
. H e als o sai dthat

i t wa s har dt o discus s th e approac h without knowing th e details , but

a t leas t th e goa l need s t o b e broader
. Davi d Hawkin s (Natura

l Resource s Defens e Council ) sai dh e supporte danumber o f th e principle s state d b y Mr
. Sussman
. He ha dto disagree , though , o n Mr
. Sussman' s thirdprincipl e tha t target s shoul d b e base d o n environmenta l need , no t availabl e contro l technology
. Mr
. Hawkin s reminde d th e grou p tha t th e Clea n Air Ac t include s bot

h ambien t (health-based ) Pag e 4P. 6

and "bes t practices " approaches
. Eac h hav e strengths/weaknesses
. H e note dthat th e battl e ove

r th e recen t ozone/P M NAAQ S revisio n i s areminde r o f th e difficult

y o f gettin g agreemen

t usin g onl y ahealth-base d approach
. He state dtha t bot h approache s nee dto b e retained
. Mr
. Hawkin s als o sai d tha

t EP A stil l need s to focu s o n basi c NS Rreform
. He contraste d th e lac k o f succes s of

th e NS Rprogra

mwit h th e motor

vehicl e program . Hig h pollutin g car s manufacture d i n th e 60' s and 70' s hav e graduall y bee n replace dandno w represent only asmal l fraction of th e entir e flee t and th e correspondin g emissions
. In contrast , older powe r plant s stil l emi t alarg e proportio n of

emissions , e.g. , 84 % o f

NO x emissions
. H e indicate dtha t th e grandfathere d source s ar

e no t going awa

y unles s NS Ri s improved
. Pravee n Ama

r (NESCAUM ) state dthat , wit h respec t to whethe r th e approac h shoul d include only coal-fire d unit s o r othe r unit s a s well , i t

wa s prope r t o star t wit h coal-fire dplants , sinc e that i s wher e mos t o f th e emission s ar

e comin g from, e.g. , almos t al l o f S0 2 anda significan t percentag e of

NOx
. Mar k Brownstei n (Clea

n Energ y Group ) state dth e Mr
. Sussman' s proposa l i s basicall y consistent wit h th e Clea n Energy Group' s proposal
. If th e solutio n lie s i n th e legislativ e arena , ther e ar e anumbe r of bill s currently i n th e Congres s tha t include thes e idea s andtha t he coul d recommen d t o Mr
. Sussma n t o investigate
. Mr
. Brownstei n the n state d wha t he believe s i s neededt o b e include di n th e sector-base d approach
. I t

need s t o look

a t al l fue l types . Pur

e economic s driv e busines s decisions , andal l cost s mus t b e included
. Environmenta l cost s mus t

b e include dup-front , otherwis e busines s decision s ar

e affected
. Hi s grou

p doe s not car e about fue l type , but rathe r i s lookin g to generat

e electricit y a t th e lowes t

possibl e price
. S o i t

i s importan

t to hav e environmenta

l cost s identifie d prior t o busines s decisions
. Also , th e approac h shoul db e consisten

t wit h NSP S fo r NO x fo r utilit y boilers , which he though

t wa s agoodprogram . Christophe

r Jame s (Stat

e o f Connecticu

t DEP ) stated , hal f

jokingly , tha

t som e peopl e believ e NS Ri s quit

e good
. He appreciate s industry' s needfo r flexibilit y andcertainty , bu t

no t o n acompartmentalize d basis , i.e. , no t on asector

basis
. H e woul dlik

e EP A t o g o forwar

d wit h acomprehensiv e progra

mtha t include s multipl e pollutant s andabroadcoverag e o f sources , no t jus t th e interest s represente d a

t th e tabl e today
. H e applaudedEPA' s efforts i n takin g o n a n integrate d approach
. Bil l Bumper s (Clas s of

'85 ) agreedwit

h Mr
. Hawkin s tha

t atechnolog y drive

r has " t o b e include d i n th e program . H e sai d ther e ar e opportunitie s fo

r market s t o driv e technologies , and tha t superio r hea t rate s and efficiency improvement s driv e emissio n reductions
. However , h e note d tha t there i s afundamenta

l differenc e i

n viewpoint s between a

n existin g versu s ane w sources , i.e. , makin g change s to auni t to mak e i t mor e efficien t versu s buildin g anew source . H e sai d that

ne w unit s and ne w technolog y ar e mor e efficien t andcleane

r an ddriv e emissio n
Pag e 5P. 7

target s lower
. But

tha t doe s no t mea n tha t older , e.g. , 40-yea

r old , plant s shoul db e shu t

down
. Instead , thei r

efficiency need s t o b e improved
. Mr
. Bumper s note d tha

t th e off-ram

p wa s propose da

t first becaus e of

th e stalemate i n NS Rreform
. H e though

t th e sector-base dapproach shoul dfocu s o n al l unit s an dal l pollutant s excep t C0 2 and mercury . H e state d tha t C0 2 andmercur

y wer e no t covere dunde

r th e NS R program . H e als o sai d tha

t th e approach shoul db e unit-specific , i.e. , individua l unit s shoul d b e allowe d t o op t

i n a s oppose d t o company-wide , becaus e man y facilitie s operate dindependentl y and term s lik

e "companies " and "system-wide " wer e har dto define
. Gre g Signe

r (Tennesse e Valley Authority ) aske dwhethe r th e standard s shoul db e base d o n fue l input or powe r output . Wit

h respec t t o typ e of fuel , h e suggeste dtha

t th e approac h shoul d b e expande d beyon d fossi l fuel s andshoul dinclude , fo r example , nuclea

r an d hydroelectri c powe

r generation
. He state dtha

t h e agree dwit

h Mr
. Hawkin s tha

t EPA stil l neede d t o pursu e basi c NS Rreforms , andi s workin g wit h Cinerg y o n th e MOU
. H e als o sai d tha t whethe r th e approach i s unit-specifi c or system-wide wil l dependo n th e element s o f th e approach , bu t

th e tradin g shoul d b e system-wide
. Fo r clarification , John Seitz (Director , EP A Office o f

Air Qualit y Plannin g an d Standards ) aske d i f

th e recommendatio n wa s fo r optin g in to b e unit-specifi c andtradin g to b e system-wide
. H e als o sai d tha t h e wante deveryone to understan dtha t th e issue s were broade

r tha n unit-specific
. Mr
. Bumper s sai d tha t eac h plant

ha s differen

t issue s an dtha t h e wante dt o convey tha

t eac h uni t coul d no t b e expecte dt o emit

a t th e sam e targe t rate . Mr
. Perciasep e sai d tha t tradin g woul d wor

k bes t i f mor e unit s andfacilitie s participate di n th e program . Christin e Shave

r (Federa l LandManager

) state dtha

t NS Ri s virtuall y th e onl y too l tha t Federa l Lan d Manager s hav e t o protec t Federa l lands
. Sh

e recognize s tha

t existin g unit s are th e problem , and welcome s aprogra mtha t woul densur

e th e certaint

y o f emissio n reductions
. Sh

e als o recognize s industry' s need s and welcome s ideas
. Sh e notedtha

t th e visibilit

y rule s includ e a top-dow n bes t

practice s approach , an

dtha t there i s anee dto kee

p technolog y requirements
. Wit h respec t t o th e concep t

o f thi s approach , she indicate dtha t FL M woul dsuppor

t thi s progra

m bu t wante d atechnology-base d program . Although SO x an dNO x were amajo

r concer n t o th e FLM , bu t sh e woul d suppor

t amulti-pollutant

progra mif tha t wa s amor

e efficien t wa y t o do it
. Mr
. Hawkin s sai d that

th e issu e o f

unit-specifi c versu s company-wide wa s asubse t o f a larger issu e o f wha t th e progra

mprovides
. I f

th e alternat

e progra mwa s avoluntar

y progra mand i t provide s mor

e flexibility the n it

als o need s t o provide bette r environmenta

l protection
. H e als o stresse d tha

t th e bas e NS Rprogra

mneed s t o b e strong . He wa s concerne dtha t i f th e bas e NS R progra mwere no t

changed , avoluntar

y progra mwoul damoun

t t o "pushin g o n aba g o f molasses. " H e suggeste d tha t EP A canno t allo w acompan

y to obtai n aca

p a t today' s levels
. Th e NS Rrefor

mmus t chang e thi s fundamenta

l aspec t o f th e bas e progra

mor unit s wil l no t

com e into avoluntar

y program .
Pag e 6P. 8

Mr
. Bluestei n disagree d wit h Mr
. Bumper s tha

t th e proble mwa s wit

h existin g units
. Ne w unit s als o had t o b e considere d andcoul dhelp driv e technolog y improvements
. Ne d Helm e (Cente r fo r Clea n Air Policy ) state dtha

t th e voluntar

y off-ram p shoul d includ e aC0 2 component , an

d tha t aC02-targe t

i s needed
. Busines s decision s needt o consider C0 2 an d mercury . Alternativ e fuel s mak e mercur y proble mg o away . H e als o sai dtha t a compan y shoul d com

e int o th e progra

mwit h all of thei r plants
. Mik e Bradle y (Clea n Energy Group ) ha

dconcern s about

shoehornin g a

n integrate d approach int

o NSR
. He sai d tha

t alo t o f issue s hav e been raise dincludin g tha t o f adeclinin g cap . He state d tha

t i f th e off-ram

p wa s no t attractiv e the n "yo u ma

y loos e acritica

l mass. " H e suggested tha

t cos t saving s from atradin g approach depend s o n lot s of participation
. H e als o sai d tha t limitin g i t to SO x an d NO x woul dno t

work , andthat

th e approac h need s to captur e th e C0 2 an d mercur y piece
. Th

e MO U ma y b e a n option
. He note dtha

t C0 2 i s th e bi g uncertaint

y facto r i n th e future
. H e need s acrysta l bal l t o se e wha

t th e futur e mercur y an dC0 2 program s wil l be , but

thes e nee d to b e folded int o th e off-ram

p approach
. Mr
. Harnet

t pointe d tha

t n o one ha dtalke dabou

t C O andPM , andaske dwhethe r th e assumptio n wa s tha

t thes e pollutant s woul db e automatically covere di n th e off-ram p program . Bil l O'Sullivan (Stat

e o f Ne w Jersey ) state dC O andP M mus t b e considere dbecaus e the y ar e criteri apollutant s an

d thi s progra

mi s acriteri apollutant-base dprogram . Mar k Buzel (AES , Ne w York

) sai dtha t optin g in th e progra

mshoul db e unit-specifi c becaus e companie s change
. Even i f w e kno w wha

t th e facilitie s ar

e today , th e busines s model ma y chang e i n th e future
. Davi d Woole

y (Clea n Ai r Tas k Force ) supporte dMr
. Hawkin s in stressin g th e urgenc y t o complet e NS Rreform
. While h e supporteda n integrate dstrateg y fo

r th e utilit y industr y and th e grandfathere d sources , and recognize dtha t abroa dprogra mwa s neede dt o ensur

e tha t emission s wil l b e reduced , h e emphasized tha t th e sector-base dapproach shouldno t b e adistractio n from th e mai n focus , whic h i s refor mo f th e bas e NS Rprogram . Mr
. Woole y the n aske dMr
. Nicke l i f ther e wa s an y progres s o n th e UARG proposa l fo r NS Rreform
. Mr
. Nicke l replie d tha

t th e UAR G proposa l ha dbeen o n th e tabl e sinc e Apri l 1999 , and tha t UAR G wa s awaitin g EP

A response . He pointe dout tha t their proposa l wa s backe db y a larg e numbe

r of sources , which satisfie s th e broa dparticipatio n criteri afo

r success . He sai d tha

t their proposa l ca n achiev e significan

t S0 2 an dNO x reductions
. H

e als o sai dtha

t fo r C O and P M th e bas e progra

mha s to b e good , but

questione dho w C O an

dP M wil l b e addresse di n th e sector-base d approach
. He indicate d tha t C O wa s onl

y a n issu e fo r lo w leve l source s such a s th e combustio n turbines , but

no t a n issu e fo r larg e sources . Wit

h respec t t o PM , he sai dtha

t almos t all source s hav e som

e level of control , an

dtha t ther e i s only anee

dto determin e whic h source s
Pag e 7P. 9

need t o d o mor e (tha n wha t they ar e currently doing)
. He suggeste dtha t th e progra

mfo r C O and P M b e differen

t fromS0 2 an d NOx
. Peter Glase r (representin g Wester

n Fuel s Association ) warne dt o keep C0 2 out o f th e discussions
. C0 2 i s no t

aregulate d pollutant , an

dthere woul db e abi g fight i f C0 2 wa s considered
. Mr
. Bradley urge d EP

A to ge t on wit h th e refor mof th e cor e element s of

NSR , whic h shoul d b e strong , an

d view s th e off-ram

p a s voluntar

y relief
. H e als o sai dtha

t there ar e companie s tha

t wan t C0 2 i n th e program . Mr
. Perciasep e attempte d to su mup prio r to th e brea

k fo r lunch
. The concep t

o f a comprehensiv e approac h seem s agreeabl e to all , wit h tradin g bein g a

n important

element o f th e approach
. Ther

e i s th e issu e of

th e prope r vehicle , bu t

NS Rha s a

n important

role
. H e sense d frustration among th e group tha t ther e wa s aneedto talk

abou t emissio n reductio n level s o r targets , i.e. , whethe

r th e target s shoul d b e ai

r quality-base do

r technology-based
. H e state dtha t th e level s neede d t o b e dynami c and no t stati c becaus e technolog y improve s ove r time
. H e indicate d tha

t there wa s als o aneed t o talk about tha t timefram e issu e andwha

t source s shoul d b e doin g no w versu s speculat

e fo r th e future
. H e pointe dout tha t thi s wa s no t

anegotiatio n an d that w e ar e no t goin g to mak

e up anumber
. Ther

e i s alega l framewor k base don lega

l principle s whic h require s tha

t level s b e base d o n som

e rationale
. H e suggeste dtha t th e afternoo n sessio n b e re-arrange d to talk

first about timefram e an dtarget s t o allo w fo

r sufficien t discussion , and leav e furthe

r discussio n o f

tradin g issue s t o th e en do f th e session
. Bil l Becker

(STAPPA/ALAPCO ) go t

i n th e las t wor d o f th e mornin g b y statin g that th e discussio n o n tradin g and averagin g wil l benefi t from adiscussio n o n framework andprinciple s o f th e progra

m- th e State s wan

t th e framework

t o achiev e emissio n reductions
. H e expresse d hi s opinio n tha

t th e discussio n o n framework shoul dprecede th e discussio n o n timefram e and targets . BREA K FO RLUNC H (approximately ll:50am-12:30pm )
DISCUSSIO N ON STAT E AN D FEDERAL ROLE S Mr
. Seitz opene d th e afternoon sessio n by pointin g out tha t Mr
. Perciasep e ha

dt o g o fo r a meetin g wit

h th e Administrator , an

d tha t h e wil l b e back

late r i n th e afternoon
. Mr
. Harnet

t identifie d achang e in th e schedul e fo r th e afternoon session , to begi n wit h th e topi c o f

th e State/Federa

l role s fo r avoluntar y off-ram p program , followedb y th e timeframes/target s issue , and ending wit h furthe r discussio n of

tradin g versu s averaging
. H e initiate d th e State/Federa

l role s discussio n b y askin g wha t woul dhappe n i f

aStat e chos e no t

t o Pag e 8P.1 0

participat e i n th e voluntar

y program . He aske dtha

t i f th e progra mwa s lef t fo r State s t o adop t

vi a SIPs , simila

r to th e NS Rprogram , then shoul dEP A rejec t thos e SIP s tha

t do no t adop t thi s approach , i.e. , shoul d it

b e voluntar

y o r mandator y fo r State s to adopt

it ? H e als o aske dtha

t i f it wer e voluntar y fo r State s t o adopt

it , the n wha

t woul dhappe n i n th e cas e o f acompan y that ha s plant s i n severa

l State s but

onl y som e of thos e State s adop t

thi s program . Joh n Pau l (Dayto n RAPCA) thought that i f th e prgra mi s voluntar

y fo r th e source s the n i t mus t b e voluntar

y fo r th e States , and th e regiona l group s such a s NESCAU M or MARAMA coul d facilitat

e trading
. State s coul d opt-i n throug h th e regiona l organizations
. He furthe

r state d tha t i f th e progra mwer e designed suc

h tha t the y wer e eas y t o implemen

t the n th e State s wer

e likely t o adop t

it
. Mr
. Harnet

t noted tha t som e State s wer

e oppose dto optin g int

o th e tradin g progra

m unde r th e NO x SI

P call , an d requeste dinput

fromth e State s a s to whethe r som e of thos e issue s migh t b e aproblemhere
. Mr
. Pau l indicate dtha t localize dimpact s wer

e alway s aconcer

n o f State s when talkin g abou

t aregiona l tradin g program , andtha

t protection s agains t

localize d impact s woul d b e needed
. Also , wit h trading , timeframe s andtarget s wer e aconcern . Longe

r timeframe s mak

e tradin g harder
. Technology-base dtarget s an dshor t timeframe s ar

e preferabl e to get reductions
. H e acknowledged tha t th e detail s nee dt o b e workedout . Mr
. Bradley indicate d tha

t i n som e State s ther

e ma y onl y b e afe w source s andthos e State s ma y b e reluctant

t o joi n th e program . H e note dtha t thes e source s ma

y b e addresse d throug h limit s made enforceable throug h th e Titl e V program . H e als o indicate dthat State s are supportiv e of

thei r proposal
. Mr
. Ama r state d tha t if larg e reduction s occu

r in general , then loca

l impact s woul dlikely no t b e aproblembecause * o

f th e tal l stack s associate d wit h mos t coal-firedunits , andcoul d b e handle d vi aloca

l implementatio n of

air qualit y standards
. H e stresse dth e importanc e o f havin g baselin e determination s an

d emission s banking , an

dagree dtha

t it woul dno t b e har dt o do onc e rule s wer e set up-front
. Mr
. Jame s identified th e Ozone Transpor t Commissio n Memorandu

mof Understandin g wa s a n exampl e o f

ho w State/Federa

l role s coul dwork
. H e als o agreedwit h Mr
. Bradley' s suggestio n tha

t i f ther e wer e onl y afe w source s then aTitl e V revisio n wil l als o work
. John Bunya

k (Federa l Land Manager

) note dtha t local impact s ar

e ver y important

t o manager s protectin g Federa l lands , an dtha t an y cap-and-trade progra

mmus t protec t th e issu e o f impacts , includin g AQR

V in Clas s I areas . He indicate dsuppor t fo r declinin g emissio n cap s of larg e geographi c regions , and sai d tha t statu s quo , e.g. , a

t curren t emissio n levels , wa s no t acceptable
. Beck y Stanfield (U.S
. PIRG) strongly agreedtha t loca l impact s wer

e no t atrivial issue , especially wit

h respec t to mercury , wher

e ho t spot s woul drequir

e attention
. Similarly , NO x and Pag e 9P.1 1

S0 2 ho t spot s wer e no t acceptable
. Sh

e als o expresse dhe

r opinio n tha

t brad-base dtradin g woul d depen d o n timefram e and targets . Bil l Gran t (Izaa k Walto n League ) wa s als o concerne dabou t mercury . H e suggeste d tha t i f tradin g occurre d ove

r to o larg e of

aregion , the n loca

l mercur y impact s ma

y stil l persist
. H e preferre d asmal l geographi c area . Mr
. O'Sulliva

n di d no t expec t tha t an y emissio n increase s woul db e allowe da t individual sites
. H e though

t th e progra

mwoul d allo w individua

l site s to foreg o decreases , bu t tha t actual emissio n increase s woul d no t b e allowed
. However , i f

ther e wer e emissio n increase s the n loca l impact s woul d hav e to b e addressed
. Mr
. Nicke l argue d tha

t althoug h atradin g progra

mwoul dno t

encourag e emissio n increases , th e progra

mwoul d hav e to allo w emission s to increas e a t individua l plants
. H e indicate d tha

t safeguard s agains t

emissio n increase s andloca l impact s ma

y already exis t

under othe r programs . Mr
. Ama r pointe d out

tha t i f emissio n reduction s wer

e no t substantia l the n tradin g coul d caus e problems
. Tradin g acros s Stat e boundarie s mus t

wor k unde r th e umbrell athat

overal l reduction s wil l occur . Simila r to ozone an

dNOx , thi s wa s aregiona

l issue
. Mr
. Seit z suggeste d tha

t withi n othe

r tradin g programs , such a s th e NO x MOU o r th e Titl e I V program , NO x reduction s wer e bein g realized , but

tha t atradin g progra

mshoul dno t trum p th e issu e of

loca l impacts
. Mr
. Becke r sai d tha t tradin g woul dno t

allo w increase s i n emissions
. H e aske d Mr
. Nicke l i f

UAR G woul d allo w increase s a

t individua l facilities
. Mr
. Nicke l replie d yes . He sai dtha t som e facilitie s ma

y increas e utilizatio n andoffse t i t wit h reduction s elsewhere
. Bruc e Buckheit

(EPA/OECA ) note dtha

t a n air qualit y contro l mechanis munder th e SIP progra mcoul d b e use d i f

alocalize d problemexisted , but tha t such afacilit

y coul dstil l participate i n th e tradin g progra ma s aselle

r insteado f abuyer
. Mr
. Harnet

t aske d whethe

r a n individua

l facilit y coul dincreas e emission s a s lon g a s th e NAAQ S wer

e protected
. Mr
. Nicke l sai dtha t atradin g progra

mshoul dpreserv e tha

t flexibility. H e als o pointe d out

tha t he wa s talkin g abou

t annual , an

dno t short-term , emissions
. Mr
. O'Sulliva

n note d tha

t modification s othe

r tha n emissio n increases , such a s reduce d stack heights , woul d als o hav e to b e considere di n th e ai r qualit y analysis
. I n suc h acase , modelin g woul d b e necessary . Pag e 1 0P.1 2

I n respons e t o Mr
. Nickel' s comment , Mr
. Gran t state dtha t mos t mercur y depositio n occur s within 25-5 0 mile s o f aplant , an

dtha t significan t increase s i n utilizatio n that resul t in emissio n increase s coul d exacerbat e such loca

l problems
. Mr
. Hawkin s state d tha

t loca l environmenta

l group s woul dkeep pressure o n t o mak e certai n tha t plant s i n thei r

constituenc y woul db e cleane dup . However , h e note dthat th e integrit y o f th e progra mdepend s upon regiona

l trading
. Mr
. Bunya k note d tha t Clas s I area s d

o not hav e SI P safeguard s o

r othe r program s to fal

l back on . Mr
. Bumper s sai d tha

t industr y want s tradin g an

dsupport s integrit

y i n th e tradin g program . Industr

y ca n liv e wit h State/loca

l concern s about

environmenta

l safeguards
. H e als o sai d tha t industr y ha s gone throug h anumbe r of program s an

dca n d o this , but only without bureaucrati c problems
. Fo r clarification , Mr
. Seit

z askedi f STAPPA/ALAPCO' s commen t wa s that i n a voluntar y progra mth e State s shoul d b e allowe dto ente r th e progra mi f there were anumbe

r o f source s i n th e State , and i f

th e Stat e onl y ha d1 o r 2 sources , the n aTitl e V revisio n woul d b e preferred
. Mr
. Brownstei n commente d tha t i f thi s approach i s amandator y progra mtha t replace s NSR , then there woul d b e aproblem
. However , i f i t i s a n off-ram p an davoluntar

y program , the n it ca n work
. Mos t

companie s ar

e multi-Stat

e companies , an

ds o coordinatio n among State s i s needed
. State s hav e done thi s before
. Mr
. Jame s suggeste d tha

t fo r State s tha t d o no t opt in , FI P coul db e use dinsteadof

aSI P t o implemen

t thi s program . Mr
. Harnet

t replie dtha

t one of th e problem s wit

h that wa s tha t EP A resource s wer

e limited
. Mr
. Harnet

t pointe d out

tha t durin g th e NOx SI

P discussio n man

y State s were no t intereste d in trading
. If

tha t i s th e cas e the n onl

y thos e source s tha

t ar e in State s tha

t op t in coul d participat e i n th e tradin g program . H e sai dh e i s tryin g t o understan dwher e th e difference s ar

e among th e States
. Mr
. Becke r sai d tha t one of th e concern s wa s tha

t if autilit y i s allowe dt o increas e emissions , th e beneficiar

y woul d b e a

n upwindfacilit

y tha t wa s tradin g wit

h it
. H e askedwh

y woul d adownwind Stat

e want t o participat

e unde r such circumstances
. Mr
. Nicke l thought

tha t mechanism s currentl

y exis t to tak e car e of increaser s an

dto addres s upwind-downwin d issues
. Hi s vie w o f th e progra mwa s tha t emission s fromsom

e plant s g o up , other s g o down , and ther e i s anet decreas e in emission s ove

r time
. However , industr

y canno t d o anythin g i t

want s unde

r th e tradin g progra

m- ther e ar e protection s suc h a s th e ambien t Pag e 1 1standard s and visibility
. Tradin g ha s to b e flexible, bu t tha t doe s no t mea n tha t i t woul dhinder ai r qualit y maintenanc e plans
. Mr
. Hawkin s wa s concerne d tha t industr y ha s made efforts to prevent th e existin g syste m fromworking , and mentione d severa l case s currently i n th e D C Circuit
. H e the n sai dtha t downwind problem s d

o exis t and tha t th e curren t stat e o f affairs ha s no t

delivere dcleane

r air
. Mr
. Becke r echoe d Mr
. Hawkins ' comment . Whil e th e ambien t air qualit y impac t analysi s i s protectio n o n paper , onc e emission s occu r th e burden fall s o n State s to protec t th e NAAQS
. State s hav e ha

d toug h battl e tryin g to d

o thi s andshoul dop t

i n only i f they were comfortabl e wit

h thi s issue
. Mr
. Bumper s argue d tha

t there wil l alway s b e problem s andtha t eve n unde

r NS Rthere coul d b e significan

t increase s i n utilization
. He asked , "Ho w d o you desig n aperfect

tradin g program ? Ca

n w e d o it unde r NSR? " Mr
. Buckhei t

sai d tha t accordin g to som

e peopl e abroad-base dprogra mwil l mak

e i t easier
. (??? ) I n acap-and-trade program , ther e wil l alway s b e aquestio n o f who , what , whe n etc . Mr
. O'Sullivan suggeste d tha t it wouldb e lef

t u p t o th e source s to propos e ho w the y d o retrofit s and get

early reductions
. The orde r of thing s wa s no t

tha t important
. He als o note d tha t lot s o f ol d source s hav e neve

r bee n rigorously modeled
. H e fel t arigorous modelin g effor

t fo r olde r source s wa s neede d i n thi s progra mto ensur e protectio n of

ambien t standards
. H e wa s les s concerne d about

th e impact s o f

annua l emissio n increase s tha

n h e wa s abou t

increase s i n hourly emissions
. H e suggeste d tha t lb/h r emissio n limit s ma

y b e necessary . Mr
. Pau l sai d tha

t th e bottomlin e i s dollars
. I n th e end , all industr y andState s think

about i s ho w muc h i t

wil l cos t them
. "W e ar

e jus t dancin g around " wha

t th e progra

mshoul dloo k

like , but no t talkin g about

details
. H e sai d tha

t cos t issu e wil l b e aproblemwhen talkin g about details
. DISCUSSIO N O

N TIMEFRAME S AN

D TARGE T LEVEL S Mr
. Harnet

t the n moved th e discussio n to th e timeframe s an dtarget s issue
. H e aske d fo r idea s o n th e rational e tha

t EP A shoul dus e i n selectin g emissio n reductio n targets/level s and th e time frame fo

r implementation
. H e indicate dtha t anumbe r of proposal s hav e com

e i n wit h recommendation s fo

r level s and timeframe
. The grou p shoul dconside

r question s lik

e - Shoul d all source s b e subjec t

to BACT/LAER ? Whe

n shoul dth e progra

mbegin ? Whe

n shoul dtarget s b e met ? Bu t

mainly , EP

A wa s intereste din th e rational e fo r decidin g target s an

dtimeframes
. Mr
. Seitz explaine d tha

t Mr
. Perciasep e want s atimefram e i f thi s progra

mi s goin g to b e offere d a s a n off-ram p t o regula

r NSR
. He emphasize dtha

t EP A wa s mos t

intereste di n th e Pag e 1 2P.1 4

rational e t o b e use d i n settin g target s andtimeframes , andles s s o i n th e exac t numbers/schedule s tha t peopl e wer

e advocating
. Mr
. Sussman' s vie w wa s tha t th e progra mcoul dcontai n thre e categories
. One , th e primar y drive r shoul d b e ambien

t ai r quality , notin g tha

t th e primar

y purpos e of

contro l program s wa s t o meet attainmen t responsibilitie s andtha

t thi s col db e achieve dvi anational/regiona l program s such a s th e NO x SI P call
. Two , State/loca

l control s withi n SI

P - th e focu s o f

thes e progra mwoul d b e o n source s withi n th e non-attainment areas . Three , NS Rcontrol s - h e viewe d NS Ra s abackstop program , an d not th e cente r piec e of th e ai r qualit y program . NS Ri s source-specifi c and i s there to preven t leakage
. He als o state dtha t th e technology-base ddriver o f th e NS Rprogra

mshoul d no t

b e th e drive

r o f th e nationa

l program . A s to levels , h e suggeste d tha t it shoul d no t

rely o n NS Rlevels
. Ther

e i s apoint

wher e th e technolog y pat

h andambient

air qualit y pat h diverge
. National/regiona l model s coul db e use dt o determin e levels
. H e suggeste d t o put NS R"to on

e side " and design anationa l program . He agree dtha

t State/loca l agencie s wil l pla y asignifican

t rol e i n whateve

r i s don e o n nationa

l level
. Ther

e wer e tw o way s to determin e levels ; one , technology-base d (NSR) , andtwo , ai r quality-based
. Whe

n aske db y Mr
. Harnet

t whethe r h e wa s talkin g about

PM-2. 5 an

dozone 1-h

r standards , andi f

thi s wa s th e rationa

l h e woul d use , Mr
. Sussma

n replie d tha

t acomprehensiv e air

qualit y regime i s neede dandtha t w e need t o talk

about specifi c issues
. Whe

n aske db y Mr
. Buckheit

ho w health-base dlevel s woul d b e set without going throug h five year s of analysis , e.g. , ho w to set

level s fo r afutur e year , sa y 2012 , Mr
. Sussma

n replie d tha

t technology-base dlevel s canno t supersede health-base dlevels
. Mr
. Buckhei t

note d th e time-consumin g natur e o f modelin g andth e inabilit

y to reac h consensu s o n settin g health-base d levels
. He fel t tha t aprogra mbase donly o n ambien

t air qualit y woul d tak e alon g time t o reac h consensu s on levels
. Mr
. Seit z acknowledge d tha

t NS Rwa s technology-base dprogra mtha t ha s create daleve l of anxiety
. H e agreed tha

t certaint y wa s desired
. Th e questio n i s wha t typ e of rational e coul d b e use d t o set timeframe s and levels
. UAR G hadsuggeste dt o us e lif

e expectanc y fo

r timeframe , although EP

A di d no t agre e wit h it
. Ar e ther e an y othe r suggestion s fo

r rationale ? Mr
. Signe r suggeste d not

to de-lin k off-ram p frommain NSR
. NO x andS0 2 are differen t fromTVA' s perspective
. The y (TVA) wer

e puttin g SC

Ro n som e of their larg e source s right now , and als o tryin g t o get 80 % reduction s o n S02
. Mr
. Woole

y urge d EP

A to assur e tha t th e voluntar

y progra mwouldachiev e th e sam

e emissio n reduction s a s thos e h e anticipate s woul doccu r fromprope

r implementatio n o f

th e bas e program . H e indicate d tha t 1 5 o r 2 0 year s wa s to o lon g fo

r atimeframe , an

dtha t current litigatio n woul d likely resul t i n requirin g certai n reduction s i n th e 3- 5 yea r time frame. H e suggeste d tha

t th e voluntar

y off-ram p progra mmus t b e a t leas t a s stringen

t a s th e level s h e expect s tha

t wil l result

fromth e litigation
. Charle s McPhedra

n (Pen n Futures ) agreedwit

h Mr
. Hawkin s tha

t th e curren t NSR/PS D ha s faile d t o get

th e emissio n reduction s i t

wa s suppose dto . Enforcemen t ca n help NS Rwor

k a s Pag e 1 3P.1 5

ca n improvement s i n th e bas e program . An y alternativ e progra

mshoul db e base dupo n wha t ca n b e achieve d i n practice
. He asked tha t EP A look a t wha t industr y ha s done an di s capabl e o f doing , e.g. , control s tha

t achiev e 0. 1 lb/MMBt

u fo r NO x ar e i n plac e i n Pennsylvania
. H e advocate d tha

t EP A adop t short-ter mgoal s o f

0.1 5 lb/MMBt

u fo r NO x and0. 3 lb/MMBt

u fo r S02
. Whe

n aske d b y Mr
. Seit

z fo r clarificatio n whethe

r level s shoul db e base do n thos e that ca n b e achieve d in practice , Mr
. McPhedra n replie dye s onl

y i n term s of

enforcement
. When aske d b y Mr
. Seitz whethe

r h e ha d along-ter

mgoa l asid e fromenforcement , Mr
. McPhedra n replie d tha t h e coul d no t

sa y yet . Mr
. Bradley sai d tha

t hi s proposa

l i s ahybri dbetwee n technolog y andambient air qualit y considerations
. Ther

e shoul d b e adeclinin g ca

p ove r time , wit h a n intermediate goa

l t o obtai n reduction s by 2008
. H e though t anationa l progra mwit h a0.1 5 lb/MMBt

u fo r NO x wa s needed , and a50 % reductio n in S0 2 abov e th e current Aci dRai n program . H e propose damercur y goa l o f a50 % reductio n b y 2008 , wit h apossibl e secon dphas e afte r that
. Fo r C02 , h e though t stabilizatio n to 199 0 level s wer e possible
. For

PM-10 , h e suggeste dt o us e a n NSPS-typ e approach , and fo

r CO , a n engineerin g andpractice-typ e approach
. H e wa s no t sur e what t o recommen d afte

r th e 200 8 target s wer

e met . H e selecte d200 8 a s th e tim e frame becaus e i t wa s consistent wit h EPA' s time frame associate dwit h th e 8-hou

r ozone andPM-2. 5 attainment timeframes
. Mr
. Hawkin s sai d tha

t an y alternative s to NSR/PS D mus t include technology-base d standards
. H e fel

t there wa s som

e hop e o n gettin g stakeholder s t o agre e o n technology-base d targets , bu t

tha t agreement

o n health-base dtarget s woul db e man y year s away . Mr
. Bumper s sai d tha

t th e Clas s o f

85' s origina

l proposa l wa s no t atradin g program , bu t wit h th e apparen

t genera l acceptanc e o f

tradin g voice di n th e morning sessions , h e wante dt o withdra w their non-tradin g proposal
. H e urge dEP A t o no t ignor e th e bas e program , andtha t th e alternativ e progra

mshoul d ask

"ca n w e get lower , sooner? " However , h e cautione dthat ever y plant canno t b e expecte d to mee

t acertai n level
. H e als o cautione dtha t th e tim e frame no t

b e to o short , sinc e plant s ar

e constraine d b y thi n margin s andcanno t affor dt o take lot s o f

unit s off-line i n ashor t period
. Mr
. Pau l sai d th e States , base do n aconferenc e cal l las t week , ar e lookin g a

t atechnolog y solutio n wit

h current BAC T a s th e startin g point
. H e advocate daprovisio n fo r earl y sign-up , wit h control s i n plac e b y 2007-2010
. Early sign-u p sourc e woul dge

t current BACT
. However , EP A woul d reasses s BAC T in 2005 , andtha t level woul dappl

y to source s tha

t sig n u p fo

r installin g control s afte

r 2007
. H e advocate darequiremen t fo r mandator y upgrades , i.e. , control s i n place , when aplan t

reache s 3 0 year s of

age . He assume s tha

t all unit s ar

e eventuall y controlle d o r

shu t down
. Whe

n aske db y Mr
. Harnet

t abou t source s tha

t ar e alread y 3 0 year s old , Mr
. Pau l sai d tha

t th e ide awa s tha

t whe n th e uni t reache s ag e 30 , th e uni t

wil l hav e 24 month s t o mee t th e target . Also , th e longe r th e uni t hold s of f controlling , th e tighter

th e standard
.
Pag e 1 4P.1 6

Mr
. Nicke l joke d tha

t th e NS Roff-ram

p wa s bein g turne dint

o a"Thelm aandLouise " off-ramp
. H e summarized th e rational e fo r th e UAR G proposal
. Ther

e woul dcontinu e t o b e a basi c progra

mfo r everybody
. S0 2 reduction s coul db e piggy-backe do n th e Titl e I V program , NO x reduction s o n th e regiona l tradin g programs . H e supporte da n aggregat e BAC T concept , wit h th e timin g depending o n th e levels
. He asserte dtha t ther e shoul db e astar

t dat e an da n end date
. The star

t dat e shoul d depend o n wha

t you d o i n th e first

decad e o f thi s century , i.e. , NO x SI P call , aci d rai n fo

r S0 2 control , etc . Althoug h th e mechanis mfo r th e alternate progra

mca n b e establishe d now , it

canno t begi n immediately
. The source s shoul db e give n time t o achiev e reduction s unde

r othe r program s first. For

en ddat e they ha dsuggeste d5 5-yea

r life , notin g tha

t in som e o f th e aci d rain analyse s a55-6 5 yea r lif e wa s used
. He als o sai dtha t control s o n existin g source s ha

d no t been achieve dbecaus e NS Ri s technology-base dandth e existin g source s hav e limitations
. He suggeste dlevel s o f 0.1 5 fo r NO x an d0.2 5 fo r S0 2 (base do n subpar t D aof NSPS)
. Whe

n asked b y Mr
. Seit

z wha t their suggeste dstar

t date was , Mr
. Nicke l replie d 2010 , but

wit h lot s of work , th e industr

y coul d liv e wit

h a200 5 star

t date
. Whe

n aske d by Mr
. Harnet

t whethe r h e woul d chang e level s i f

th e timefram

e wa s 10-1 5 years , Mr
. Nicke l replie d i t woul d b e ver

y aggressiv e to achiev e i n 10-1 5 years . Ms
. Shave r pointe d out

tha t th e visibilit

y progra m(regiona

l haz e rule ) ha

da13-1 5 yea

r outlook , and tha

t an y timefram

e her e mus t b e les s tha

n that
. Sh e recommende dcurren

t BAC T level s fo r th e next 3- 5 years , wit

h arevisi t i n 5 years . Therefore , ther e woul db e a

n incentiv e t o sig n u p earl y on . The target s mus t no t allo w les s tha

n wha t i s in on-goin g activities
. Sh e als o state d tha t coal-fired source s i n th e Wes t ca n mee t much lowe

r target s tha

n th e East
. Whe

n aske d b y Mr
. Harnet

t i f sh e wa s suggestin g aregiona l level , Ms
. Shave

r replie dtha

t apercent reductio n targe t

b e considere d instea

d of albs/MMBt

u target . Quinla n She a(Ediso n Electri c Institute ) sai dhi s grou p endorse s NS Rreform
. H e cautione d agains t

includin g mercur

y o r C0 2 sinc e ther

e was n o lega

l or political basis
. H e urge d EP A no t t o lin k enforcemen

t wit h NS Rreform , criticizin g wha t he calle dEPA' s "revisionis t history. " H e though

t NS Ra s alway s bein g abackstop program , an ddisagree dwit

h EPA' s enforcemen

t polic y of th e las t tw o years . Mr
. Seit z urged all no t

to fol d th e enforcemen

t issu e int o today' s discussion
. Rae Cromille

r (NRECA) indicate dtha

t it wa s difficul

t t o commen t i n detail , sinc e h e di d no t kno w wha

t th e new , reformed NS Rprogra mwouldloo

k like , an dit wa s har dfo r autilit y to decide whethe

r to participat

e i n a n off-ramp
. In general , he though t there mus t

b e a n off-ramp , which mus t

b e linke d to NS Rcriteria
. He thought i t was amistak

e t o thro w mercur

y andC0 2 into th e debate
. He view s NS Ra s abackstop program , an dadding mercur

y andC0 2 woul d creat e controversy . He thought

EP A neede dt o concentrat

e o n fixing th e existin g progra mbefor e beginnin g down th e mercury/C0 2 path
. Mr
. Bluestei n sai d th e sector-base dapproach neededatechnolog y forcing functio n i n th e for mo f adeclinin g cap . He urge d tha t th e progra mno t b e prescriptiv e i n term s o f contro l Pag e 1 5P.1 7

technolog y on aunit-by-uni t basis , but emissio n target s shoul db e base di n term s o f outpu t - lbs/uni t electricit y generate d and no t

lbs/MMBtu
. Davi d Israe l (Clea

n Energ y Group ) advocate dacomprehensiv e program . H e state dtha t busines s decision s ar

e mad e o n anumbe

r o f parameters , an

dbusines s need s t o consider C0 2 and mercur y i n busines s decisions
. Ms
. Stanfield sai d tha

t th e off-ram

p mus t achiev e th e sam

e reduction s a s NSR
. Sh

e note d tha t emissio n reduction s calle d fo r unde r th e existin g NS Rprogra

mhav e alread

y bee n substantially delayed , an

d nee d to catch up . Sh

e though t tha t a200 5 tim e frame i s no t

only achievable , i t

meet s th e objective
. Sh

e fel t tha t mercur y andC0 2 mus t

b e include dt o achiev e certainty
. Mr
. McPhedra

n clarifie d hi s positio n b y urgin g EP A t o periodicall y revis e BAC T a s als o suggeste d b y Mr
. Paul
. He mentione d 0.1 5 lbs/MMBt u of NO x a s ashort-ter

mgoal , no t

alon g ter mtarget . Mr
. Brownstei n provide d ahistor y a s t o wh y C0 2 i s o n th e table
. He sai dtha t man y utilit y industr y CEO s me

t wit h Vice-Presiden

t Gore , wher

e th e issu e o f

couplin g C0 2 reduction s wit h S0 2 and NO x reduction s wa s raised
. I f industr y need s certaint

y fo r capita l budgeting , the n C0 2 mus t b e include d in a

n integrate dstrategy . He als o sai dtha t a n age-base dprogra

mleave s reduction s o n th e tabl e whethe r it i s 55

- or 30

- o r 10-1 5 yea r program . A

n age-base dprogra

m wil l no t get th e sam e reduction s a s aca

p b y 2008
. Mr
. Becke r indicate d tha

t mos t State s agreedtha

t mercur y shoul db e controlled , and tha t C0 2 ha s nothin g t o do wit

h Kyot o (???)
. Ther

e ar e ove r 10 0 technica l andpolic y initiative s tha t source s ca

n follo w to reduc e C0 2 a

t th e sam e time a s NO x andS0 2 reductions
. H e note d tha t utilitie s shoul d assum

e tha t th e agencie s wil l eventually regulat e mercur y andC02 , and shoul d include thi s certaint y i n their planning
. Th

e progra mneed s t o b e goo da

t onset . Mr
. Jame s agree d wit

h th e needfo

r certainty , but

though t tha t EP A wa s askin g State s t o b e a t adisadvantag e b y no t

talkin g about

al l issue s a

t th e sam e time
. Incrementa

l discussion s cos t more . H e thought

tha t al l issue s mus t

b e o n th e table
. H e mentione dtha t th e northeas t State s and easter

n Canadia n province s ar

e moving ahea

do n a50 % mercur

y reductio n strategy . H e wa s hopeful fo

r a n integrate d strategy . C0 2 reduction s coul d b e include db y referrin g to the ma s efficiency improvements
. Larr y Shapir o (N Y Publi c Interes t

Research Group ) note dtha t i f industr y take s th e off-ramp , th e clou d o f

possibl e futur

e enforcemen

t disappears , whic h i s ahug e benefit
. Industr y shoul d b e willin g t o giv e something i n return , suc h a s commitment s o n mercur y andC02
. H e als o mentione d tha

t Ne w Yor k Governo r Patak i ha s alread

y propose dNO x andS0 2 reduction s i n th e sam e timefram

e a s bein g discusse di n today' s meeting
.

Pag e 1 6P.1 8

Mr
. Cromille

r responde d t o Mr
. Becker' s commen t b y notin g tha

t industr y i s alread y participatin g in voluntar

y S0 2 an d C0 2 reductio n program s right now . An y C0 2 provisio n i n thi s off-ram

p will no t provide asafeguard
. Jen e Robinso n (Illinoi s Power ) addresse dMr
. Brownstein' s commen t o n th e Whit

e Hous e meeting
. Hi s impressio n wa s tha t C0 2 coul db e reduce dfaste r i f th e NS Roff-ram

p progra mwen t forwar d and i s properly administered
. Mr
. Buckheit

wondered wh

y industr y object s t o mercur

y reduction s a s apractica

l matter . H e understoo d th e lega

l basis , but

though t tha t S0 2 scrubbe

r technolog y woul dals o remov e mercury . Mr
. Bumper s stated it wa s no t a t al l clea r tha t scrubbin g woul dget

a50 % reductio n i n mercury . Furthermore , scrubbin g ma y no t b e th e wa y emission s ar

e controlled
. Mr
. Ama

r sai d tha t scrubbe r doe s no t alway s wor

k fo r mercur y control
. Mr
. She asai d tha

t th e issu e o f

how much w e ca

n d o i n ho w muc h tim e i s differen t from target levels
. Mr
. Harnet

t explaine d tha

t ther e wer e als o othe r issue s t o b e considere dsuch a s monthly/quarterly/annua

l (???) , bankin g an

dshutdowns
. Michael Florentin o (Clea

n Ai r Council ) summedup'hi s group' s positio n b y statin g tha t th e off-ram

p mus t b e technology-base dbecaus e health-base dstandard s were no t feasibl e t o implement
. The

y wer e no t oppose d to trading , but

neede dsafeguard s fo

r bankin g issue s and environmenta

l justic e concerns . H e wa s concernedtha t som e plant choos e t o trad e rathe

r tha n control , and woul d lik

e lik e to se e som

e typ e o f cap , mayb e seasona

l emission s cap , o n ho w muc h asourc e ca

n trade
. Mr
. Seit z brough t th e meetin g to aclos e by indicatin g tha t th e summar

y of today' s meeting wil l b e docketed
. He als o sai dtha t additiona l comment s shoul db e sen

t to th e docket withi n about

aweek
. H e reiterate d Mr
. Perciasepe' s comment s a t th e beginnin g o f

th e meetin g tha t EP A wa s stil l in th e earl

y plannin g stage s wit

h respec t t o th e sector-base dapproach
. Ther e wer e stil l alo t of question s an

d EP A ma y contac t th e stakeholder s to tal k

further
. Upo n reques t froma n industr y representative , Mr
. Seit

z indicate dtha

t th e question s raise db y Ms
. Kaufma n i n he r presentatio n wil l b e mad

e availabl e to everyone . Wit h respec t to NS Rreform , he indicate d tha t EP A i s continuin g dialogu e wit h th e stakeholder s an

dhope s to mov e forwar

ddurin g spring
. The meetin g wa s then adjourned
.

Pag e 1 7P.1 9

ATTENDEE S STAKEHOLDERMEETIN G SECTOR-BASE

D APPROAC H January 13, 2000 No . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 Nam e Jess e Adkin s Pravee n Ama

r Jane t Anderso n Nnek aAssin g Bil l Bani g BarbaraBankof

f Lis aBea l Mar k Benjamin Bo b Bessette Earl Billingsle y Kare n Blanchar

d Joe l Bluestei n Michae l Bradley Lind aBreggi n Kare n Britt o Larr y Brow n Mar k Brownstei n Ro b Brubake

r Jac k Brunto n Bruc e Buckhei t Bil l Bumper s Affiliatio n

WVDE P NESCAU M WHCCT F AG A UM W Siemen s INGA A Inside EP A CIB O WV-DEP-OA Q US
. EPA/OAQP S EEA/Trigen CE G Environmenta

l La w Institute DT E ALDE M PSEG Porter , Wright , Morri s & Arthu

r Sempr aEnergy U S EPA/OEC A Bake r Bott s Phon e

304-558-247 9 617-367-854 0 202-395-233 4 202-824-733 2 202-842-726 0 202-434-381 0 202-216-593 5 703-716-853 6 703-250-904 2 304-558-227 5 919-541-550 3 703-528-190 0 978-369-553 3 202-939-382 8 202-347-842 0 334-271-788 6 973-430-719 6 614-227-203 3 619-696-250 9 202-564-226 0 202-639-771 8 Fa

x 304-558-328 7 617-742-916 2 202-395-231 1 202-824-918 2 202-842-726 4 202-347-401 5 202-216-087 6 703-716-854 3 703-239-904 2 304-558-328 7 919-541-550 5 703-528-510 6 978-369-771 2 202-939-386 8 202-347-842 3 334-279-304 4 973-565-052 5 614-227-210 0 619-696-424 8
202-639-789 0

Pag e 1 8P.2 0

No
. 2 2 2 3 2 4
2 5 2 6 2 7 2 8 2 9 3 0 3 1 3 2 3 3 3 4 3 5 3 6 3 7 3 8 3 9 4 0 4 1 4 2 4 3 4 4 4 5 4 6 Nam e Joh n Bunya k Mark Burtsch i Mark Buze l
Jame s Cap p Chuc k Carli n Mark Carne y Chri s Carr To mCarte r Davi d Cesare o Richar d Chastai n Rei d Clemme r Joh n Clin e Alla n Coe b Sta n Coer r Patric k Connil e Bett y Co x Davi d Crabtre e Carolin e Cho i Ra e Cromille r Da n Cunningha m Dav e Darne r Bra d Dave s Jocely n d e Grandpr e Norber t De e Darnel l DeMaster s Affiliatio n Nationa l Par k

Servic e Th e NA M AESN Y
GAEP D Northeas t Utilitie s PG& E Generatin g Vincen t & Elkin s APC A PEC O Energ y Souther n Companie s PP&L May s an d Valentin e Consultin g Coer r Environmenta

l Corporatio

n Reuter s AP I DG T CP& L NREC A Co n Ediso n Wisvest-Connecticut , LL C McGuir e Wood s USEP A NPR A Wisconsi n Electri c Phon e 303-969-281 8 202-637-317 6 607-729-695 0 x469 4 404-363-714 3 860-665-534 4 301-280-689 9 202-639-665 4 202-408-949 4 215-841-503 0 205-257-666 4 610-774-547 5 804-697-126 5 202-544-792 0 919-932-177 0 202-898-831 6 202-682-825 0 801-619-650 0 919-546-377 5 703-907-579 1 212-460-206 6 203-447-403 5 202-857-172 1 202-564-557 4 202-457-048 0 202-662-434 0 Fa x

303-969-282 2 202-637-318 2 607-729-054 0
404-363-710 0 860-665-377 7 301-913-585 0
202-408-087 7 215-841-406 2 205-257-729 4 610-774-593 0 804-697-133 9
919-932-334 0 202-898-849 0 202-682-803 3 801-619-659 9 919-546-753 6 703-907-551 7 212-387-214 2 203-447-403 3 202-857-173 7 202-564-560 3 202-457-048 6 202-662-435 9 Pag e 1 9P.2 1

No . 4 7 4 8 4 9 5 0 5 1 5 2 5 3 5 4 5 5 5 6 5 7 5 8 5 9 6 0 6 1 62 6 3 6 4 6 5 6 6 67 6 8 6 9 7 0 7 1 Nam e Kimberly Denbo w Jo n Devine Ruben Dez a Laris aDobriansk

y To mDriscol l Henr y Eb y Alan Ecker

t Tiffan y Elliot t Do n Elliot t Willia mElliso n Ra y Evan s Jerr y Eyste r Pa mFagger t Ric h Fishe

r Michael Florentin o Joh n Flulk y Jo e Fontain e Gre g Foot e Katharin e Fredriksen And y Gate s Kri s Gau s Chri s Gibli n Davi d Gilber

t Peter Glase r Jef f Gleaso n Affiliatio n

America n Ga s Associatio n U S EPA/OGC MDE-ARM

A Akin , Gump , Strauss , Hauer

, Fel d U S EPA/OAQP

S LCR A U S EPA/OPA

R EPS A PHJ W Elliso n Consultant s FirstEnerg y PHBHaglerBaill y Virgini aPowe

r U S Fores t Servic e Clea n Air Counci l Wall Street

Journa l NHDE S U S EPA/OGC Koch Industrie s Reynold s Metal s Compan

y CS W Reliant Energy Constellatio n Energ y Shook , Hard

y & Bacon Souther n Environmental La

w Cente r Phon e 202-824-733 4 202-546-197 1 410-631-324 0 202-887-436 3 919-541-513 5 512-473-320 0 202-564-555 7 202-789-720 0 202-508-955 8 301-865-530 2 440-761-448 2 202-828-397 1 804-273-346 7 970-295-598 1 717-230-880 6 202-862-426 4 603-271-679 4 202-260-762 0 202-737-197 7 804-281-348 2 214-777-289 6 202-783-722 0 202-942-984 0 202-783-840 0 804-977-4090 Fa x

202-824-708 2 202-546-560 3 410-631-320 2 202-887-428 8 919-541-5509 512-473-335 7
202-789-720 1 202-508-970 0 301-865-559 1 440-384-543 3 202-296-385 8 804-273-341 0 920-295-595 9 717-230-880 8 202-862-926 6 603-271-138 1
202-737-811 1 804-662-456 7 214-777-138 0 202-783-812 7 202-942-984 7 202-783-313 1 804-977-148 3
Pag e 2 0P.2 2

No
. 7 2 7 3 7 4 7 5 7 6 7 7
7 8 7 9 8 0 8 1 8 2 8 3 84 8 5 8 6 .8 7 8 8 8 9 9 0 9 1 9 2 9 3 9 4 9 5 9 6 Nam e Jo e Goffma

n Prudenc e Gofort

h Bil l Gran t Joh n Griev e To mGuay Stev e Guye r Mar k Hal l Bil l Harnet t Ra y Harr y Davi d Hawkin s Simo n Heale y Susa n Hedma n Ned Helm e Be n Hennek e Jane t Henr y An n Heighwa y Jame s Hettinge r Gen e Hig a J
. E
. Hofman Chri s Holl y Joh n Hol t Jaquelin e Howell s R
. Tod d Hyd e Le e Hughe s Kare n Iron s Affiliatio n Environmenta l Defens e Fun d USEP A Izaa k Walto n Leagu e o f Americ a Ontari o Powe

r Generation , Inc
. Clea n Ai r New s MidAmerica n Energ y Trigen U S EPA/OAQP S Souther n Compan y NRD C Troutma n Sander s Environmenta

l La w an dPolic y Cente

r Cente r fo r Clea n Ai r Polic y CAA C AE P IP L Ai r Dail y MDE-ARM A Trinit y Consultants , Inc
. Th e Energ y Dail y NREC A PNM.SPP C Merc k & Co. , Inc
. Baye r Corp
. M D Departmen

t o f Environmen

t Phon e 202-387-350 0 202-564-743 3 651-649-144 6 416-592-680 9 410-975-991 1 515-727-219 1 515-281-269 2 914-286-662 1 919-541-497 9 202-261-500 0 202-289-686 8 202-274-291 3 312-795-370 0 202-408-926 0 410-286-299 5 614-223-161 4 317-261-507 3 202-775-024 0 410-631-335 3 972-661-810 0 202-662-972 0 703-907-580 5 202-547-540 0 908-423-399 4 412-777-222 1 410-631-325 6 Fa x

202-234-664 9
651-649-149 4 416-592-784 4 410-975-990 4 515-281-297 0 914-948-915 7
202-296-793 7 202-289-106 0 202-274-299 4 202-332-158 0 202-408-889 6 410-286-346 3 614-223-168 7 317-630-579 6
410-631-320 2 972-385-920 3 202-662-974 0 703-907-551 7 202-543-574 0 908-423-132 2 412-777-306 3 410-631-320 3 Pag e 2 1P.2 3

No . 9 7 9 8 9 9 10 0 10 1 10 2 103 10 4 10 5 10 6 10 7 10 8 10 9 11 0 11 1 11 2 11 3 11 4 11 5 11 6 11 7 11 8 11 9 12 0 12 1 Name Crai g Jakubowic s Christophe

r Jame s DebraJezoui t Mala y Jinda l Davi d Katha

n Kath y Kaufina n Jef f Keele r Mik e Kenned y Larr y Kertche r Heid i Kin g Bob Kozopa s Bob Kuchne

r Barnet t Lawrenc e Brya n Le e Jeffre y Levin e Mari o Lewi s Denni s Limbac h Michael Lin g Rober t Lon g Jo e Mackei l Gene Marshal l Daw n Marti n Sharo n Masserant CV
. Matha

i Christophe r McAuliff e Affiliation Ediso n Electri c Institute Connecticut

DE P Bake r Bott s PE S NER A U S EPA/OAQP S Enro n Corporatio n Florid aPowe

r Corporatio n USEP A OMB/OIR A Ontari o Powe

r Generatio n Babcock & Wilco x Arnol d & Porte

r Dow Jone s Cauthe n an dAssociate s GRC/NE G Alleghen y Energy U S EPA/OAQP S Nationa l Mining Associatio n MO C Pacificor p U S EP A Chemica l Manufacturer

s Assoc
. Pinacl e Wes t (A Z Publi c Service ) PSE G Services Compan

y Phon e 202-508-562 0 860-424-302 7 202-639-772 8 919-941-033 3 202-466-923 9 919-541-010 2 202-466-915 7 727-826-433 4 202-564-912 1 202-395-308 4 416-592-643 8 330-860-206 3 202-942-596 5 202-862-664 7 202-638-012 5 202-225-196 2 202-824-040 4 919-541-472 9 202-463-266 3 419-421-344 2 801-220-223 5 202-564-740 0 703-741-524 0 602-250-356

9 973-430-629 8 Fa

x 202-508-567 3 860-424-406 3 202-639-789 0 919-941-023 4 202-466-360 5 919-541-550 9 202-828-337 2 727-826-421 6
202-395-728 5 416-592-484 1 330-860-140 7 202-942-599 9 202-659-013 0 202-638-011 5 202-225-244 1 202-347-013 2 919-541-550 9 202-833-196 5 419-421-451 5 801-220-430 7
703-741-624 0 602-250-381 3

Pag e 2 2P.2 4

No . 12 2 123 12 4 12 5 126 12 7 12 8 12 9 13 0 13 1 13 2 13 3 13 4 13 5 13 6 13 7 13 8 13 9 14 0 14 1 14 2 143 14 4 14 5 14 6 Name D J McCarth y Yvonne Mclntyr

e Joh n McManu s Charle s McPhedra

n Ke n Mead e Rober t Meyer s Jo e Miakis z Chri s Mille

r Pa mMill s Dav e Mitchell Rober t Morri s Catherin e Morri s Nor mMorro w Ed Much Ji mMurph

y Pamel aNajo

r Jo e Nelso n Gre g Nelso n Henr y Nicke l Jenny Noonann Dou g Obe y Ca l Ogbur n Fran k O'Donnel l Bil l O'Sullivan Jef f Pardu e Affiliation

IP L Kansa s Cit y P& L AE P PennFutur e Hale an dDorr , LL

P Hous e Commerc e Committe e M J Bradle y & Associate s Senat e EP W Alleghen y Energy Duk e Energy Coasta l Cente r fo r Clea n Air Polic y Exxon Mobil e Baltimor e Gas & Electri c Alleghen y Energy BN A Va n Nes s Feldma

n TE C Hunton an dWilliam s USEP A Clea n Air Repor t CP& L Clea n Ai r Trus t NJDE P Florid aPowe

r Corporatio n
Pag e 2 3 Phon e

202-639-881 5 202-508-527 5 614-223-126 8 215-569-969 3 202-942-843 1 202-225-804 9 978-369-553 3 202-224-296 9 202-824-040 8 202-331-809 0 713-877-619 4 202-408-926 0 281-870-611 2 410-787-655 8 724-830-592 5 202-452-636 4 202-298-189 4 813-641-501 6 202-955-156 1 919-541-019 3 703-416-851 6 919-362-358 5 202-785-962 5 609-984-672 1 727-826-430 1 Fa x

202-639-881 6 202-508-527 7 614-223-126 8 215-569-963 7 202-942-848 4 202-225-289 9
202-224-127 3 202-347-013 2 202-331-118 1 713-297-104 5 202-408-889 6 281-588-252 2 410-787-519 9 724-838-688 8 202-452-789 1 202-338-241 6 813-641-508 1 202-778-220 1 919-541-550 9 703-416-854 3 919-362-326 6 202-293-780 8
727-826-421 6P.2 5

No . 14 7 14 8 149 15 0 15 1 15 2 15 3 15 4 15 5 15 6 15 7 15 8 15 9 16 0 16 1 16 2 16 3 16 4 165 16 6 16 7 16 8 169 17 0 17 1 Nam e Gordon Par

k Davi d Park s John Pau l Wayn e Penro d Bo b Perciasep e Trac y Pet h ClaraPofenberge

r Mik e Polin g Fran k Prage r Jack Presto n Pa t Rahe r Todd Ralliso n Rhon e Resc h Tin aRichard s Lesli e Ritt s Barbar aRobert s Jen e Robinso n Edwar d Sab o Conra d Schneide

r Te d Sear s John Seitz Yvonn e Selbi g Howar d E
. Shapir

o Larr y Shapiro Christin e Shave r Affiliatio n

Tennesse e Valley Authorit y BG E RAPCA Su n Howell Electri c U S EPA/OA

R Edelma n P.R
. Bake r Bott s Kansa s Cit

y Powe r & Light NCE SCE& G Hoga n & Hartso n Pinnacl e Wes t NGS A IP L Hoga n andHartso n U S EP A Illinoi s Powe

r PE S CAT F The Technica

l Grou p U S EPA/OAQP S Rocheste r Ga s andElectri c Va n Nes s Feldma

n Environmenta

l Enforcemen

t Projec t Nationa l Par k Servic e Phon e

423-751-280 6 410-787-523 4 937-225-443 5 316-272-541 8 202-564-740 0 202-326-170 3 202-639-778 2 202-508-527 6 303-294-810 8 803-217-984 9 202-637-568 2 602-250-372 2 202-326-930 0 202-639-881 5 202-637-657 3 202-564-740 0 217-423-011 9 703-471-838 3
202-962-856 2 919-541-561 8 716-771-214 5 202-298-188 4 212-812-425 6 303-969-207

4 Fa x 423-751-701 1 410-787-506 5
316-272-541 3
202-371-285 8 202-639-789 0 202-508-527 8 303-294-825 5 803-217-734 9 202-637-591 0 602-250-339 3 202-326-932 9 202-639-881 6 202-637-591 0
240-255-581 4 703-481-829 6
202-962-854 2

202-338-246 1
303-969-2822
Pag e 24No
.

17 2 17 3 17 4 17 5 17 6 17 7 17 8 17 9 18 0 18 1 182 18 3 18 4 185 18 6 18 7 18 8 189 190 19 1 192 19 3 19 4 195 19 6 Nam e Quinla n She a Gre g Signe

r Bob Silv a Patrici o Silv a Davi d Slaughte

r Anne Smit h Davi d Solomon Beck y Stanfield Rober t Stanie r Jo e Stank o John Stanto n Bob Sussma

n Byro n Swif

t Jerem y Taylo r Bo b Teet z LauraTrante

r Gene Trisk

o Jea n Verne t John Walk

e Pau l Wallach Suzanne Watson Flin t Web b Dic k Wilso n Davi d Wojic

k Ann aWood Affiliatio n

Ediso n Electri c Institut

e TV A DOE (NETL) NRD C Thompso n Publishin g Grou p Cha s Rive r Associatio n U S EPA/OAQP S U S PIRG Winsto n & Straw n Hous e Commerc e Committe e Nationa l Environmenta

l Trus t Cinergy/WEPC O EL I Koch Industrie s Ke y Spa n Energy Cinergy UMW A U S DOE/Policy U S EP A Hal e 8c Don

Northeas t Midwes t Institut e SAI C NE S Electricit y Daily U S EPA/OPA

R Phon e

202-508-502 7 423-632-784 3 202-260-201 4 202-289-239 8 202-739-955 1 202-662-387 2 919-541-537 5 202-546-970 7 202-371-592 9
202-887-882 1 202-637-213 8 202-939-380 8 713-544-557 2 631-391-613 3 513-287-445 9 304-258-197 7 202-586-475 5 202-564-569 9 202-942-842 9 202-544-520 0 703-318-467 2 202-333-2524 540-858-350 3 202-564-166 4 Fa

x 202-508-515 0
202-260-660 6 202-289-106 0 202-739-957 8 202-662-391 0 919-541-550 5
202-371-595 0
202-887-880 0
202-939-386 8
631-391-607 9
304-258-392 7 202-586-206 2 202-564-560 3 202-942-848 4
703-709-104 2

202-564-155 4
Pag e 2 5P.2 7

No . 19 7 19 8 19 9 20 0 20 1 20 2 203 20 4 Name Davi d Woole

y Lillia n Woolley Bo b Wyma n To mYancy Ale c Zacard

i Rachael Zaffran

n Mari aZannes Ric h Zavod a Affiliatio n

Clea n Air Tas k Forc e AN R Latha m& Watkin s McGra w Hil l Wallac e Kin g N Y Stat e Attorne y General' s Offic

e IWS A LT V Stee l Phon e

518-472-177 1 313-496-311 2 213-891-833 4 202-383-224 8 202-204-100 0 212-416-8487 202-467-624

0 216-429-654

2 Fax 518-472-177 4 313-496-214 3 213-891-876 3 202-383-212 5

202-467-622

5 216-429-654 1

Pag e 2 6P.2 8

ATTACHMEN T I
Meeting Agend a



# X]P.2 9

AGEND A STAKEHOLDERMEETIN G NE W SOURC E REVIE

W SECTOR-BASE

D APPROAC H RONAL D REAGAN INTERNATIONA L TRAD E CENTE R

WASHINGTON , D.C . JANUAR Y 13,200 0 10:00-10:1 5 Introductio n an dWelcom e Bo b Perciasep e Assistant Administrator

fo r Air andRadiation , U.S
. EP

A 10:1 5 - 10:2 0 Openin g Remark s / GroundRule s fo

r th e Meetin g Bil l Harnet

t Director , Information Transfe r andProgra

mIntegratio n Division , Offic e o f Air Qualit y Plannin g andStandards , U.S
. EPA 10:2 0 - 10:5 0 Overvie w of NS RAlternativ e Sector-Base dApproac h Kathy Kaufina

n Informatio n Transfe

r ari d Progra mIntegratio n Division , Offic e o f Air Qualit y Plannin g andStandards , U.S
. EPA 10:5 0 —11:3 0 Discussion : Basi c Requirement s Issue s 11:30-12:3 0 Lunc h 12:30-1:0 0 Discussion : Shoul dTher e B e Trading ? 1:0 0 - 2:0 0 Discussion : Trading/Averagin g Issue s 2:0 0 - 2:1 5 Brea

k 2:15-2:4 5 Discussion : Stat e an dFedera l Role s 2:4 5 - 3:1 5 Discussion : Timeframe s andTarget Level s 3:15-3:3 0 Closin g Remark s

Bo b Perciasep e Pleas e Note : I f

peopl e a t th e tabl e wis h to spea

k - s o signif

y b y standin g nameplate s o n end
. If peopl e i n th e audienc e wis h t o spea k - s o signif

y b y comin g to th e microphone
. 

# 2P.3 0

ATTACHMEN T I I
Presentatio n Slide s

^

# NE W SOURC E REVIE W ALTERNATIV E SECTOR-BASE D

APPROAC H



# • • A - > USEP A Januar y 13,200 0

t o

# Goa l

ta T o develo p a n alternative approac h fo r NS R fo r a n industria l secto r that provide s mor e certainty an d flexibilit

y i n plannin g fo r th e industry , whil e providin g certaint

y i n emissio n reductions .



# •

# Genera l Framewor k
*- Coverin g Electri c Utilit y Industr y (Coal-fired )

. • Declinin g rat e o

f emission s ove r tim e fro m th e industr y I M 

# N J - Must g o beyon d Phas e I I of Aci d Rai n an d Regiona l NO x Strateg y y- 10-15 yea r progra m < • Voluntar

y progra m



# • 

# -A - >

t o

# Basi c Requirement s

• Companie s agre e t o a specifi c comprehensiv e pollutio n reductio n progra m fe? • Ne w unit s compl y wit h NSR/PS D
• Modification s a t existin g unit s woul d b e subjec t t o NSR/PS D an d us e a potentia l t o potentia l emissio n tes t

Qr'Jk

# Overal l Issue s

• Hav e ha d discussion s an d receive d inpu t o n thi s approac h fro m variou s stakeholders . • • Variou s issue s hav

e bee n raise d o f ho

w suc h a £ sector-base d approac h coul d b e structure d an d T

# implemented . • • Lookin g fo r a multi-stakeholde r discussio n o n thes e issue s t o hel p u s understan d ho w th e piece s coul d fi t togethe r t o mak

e a workabl e progra m tha t companie s woul d participat e in , wit h rea l environmenta l progress .



# • •• • 

# >

# o o 

# Basi c Requirement s Issue s

. • Shoul d th e progra m be limite d t o coal-fire d units only ? • A participatin g compan y (commo n owne r o r operator) mus t op t i n al l coal-fire d units ? • Ma y individua l plant s op t in ? O S » Wha t pollutants ar e covere d (PM , S02 , NOx , CO) ? • • Shoul d there b e a requiremen t fo r superio r environmenta l performance ? • Wha t happen s a t th e en d of th e program ? .K- Shoul d there b e a sign-u p period ?



# •

# Shoul d Ther e B e Trading ?

• Genera l Industr

y suppor t fo r tradin g • Concern s fro m State s an d Environmenta l Group s relate d t o attainmen t o f NAAQ S an d C M 

# e Clas s I area s i f yo u allow tradin g • Ar e protection s needed ? « • Averagin g o r Trading ?



# *-A - >

# Trading/Averagin g Issue s

• Ho w broa d shoul d tradin g be : • Geographically ?

, • Pollutants covered ?

- J • Company-wid e versu s Cros s compan y traded ? • Complianc e tim e perio d (monthly , quarterly , yearly , etc. ) • D o yo u allo

w banking ? • Ho w ar e shutdown s o r change s i n ownershi p treated ? • Ca n ne w unit s com e int

o th e program ? • Wha t ar e th e appropriate role s fo r Stat e an d Federa l Governments ?

# Stat e an d Federa l Role s NSR/PS D Progra m i s implemented b y State s throug h SIP s Issues & . Tradin g • Wh o track

s th e emissions ? • Wh o track

s th e allowances/averages ? • Wh o track

s compliance ? (facility-wid e o r company-wide

) Ca n State s modif

y th e Federa l program ?


# • 

# •A - >

# Timeframe s an d Targe t Level s

• • Wha t i s th e rational e fo r selectin g an y target emissio n rate s o r levels ? • - Whe n doe s th e progra m begi n an d ho w lon g w shoul d i t last ? Why ?



# • *• * 

# >

T l

### Ne w Sourc e Revie w Sector-Base d Approac h Stakeholde r Meetin g (1/13/00 ) Attende e Lis t Pleas e prin t

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