### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 1**  **UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY**

**+ + + + + APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL**  **ADVISORY COMMITTEE**

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**COMMERCIAL CERTIFICATION WORK GROUP**

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**WEDNESDAY AUGUST 28, 2013** 

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**The Work Group met in Rooms 6097-6099, 950 L'Enfant Plaza, Washington,**  **D.C., at 8:30 a.m., Neil Eisner, facilitating.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 2**  

### PRESENT **NEIL EISNER, Facilitator KARIM AMRANE, AHRI**  **ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, DOE TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice**  **LAURA BARHYDT, DOE General Counsel JEFF BAUMAN, National Refrigeration and Air**  **Conditioning MARY DANE, Traulsen**  **PAUL DOPPEL, Mitsubishi MARK FLY, AAON**  **GEOFFREY HALLEY, ABMA RANDY HASEMAN, UL**  **CHARLES HON, True Manufacturing JILL HOOTMAN, Trane**  **JOHN HURST, Lennox TOM JOHNSON, Daikin McQuay**  **JEFF KLEISS, Lochinvar KAREN MEYERS, Rheem**  **FRANK MYERS, PVI Industries PETE MOLVIE, Cleaver-Brooks**  **MASSOUD NESHAN, Southern CaseArts HARVEY SACHS, ACEEE**  **RON SHEBIK, Hussmann*** **JUDD SMITH, CSA Group FRANK STANONIK, AHRI**  **LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance**  **BILL TRITSIS, AHRI BOB WHITWELL, Carrier** 

***Present via teleconference**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 3**  **1** 

### P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S
**2** 

### 8:40 a.m.
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### MR. EISNER: All right. We've got

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### one remaining issue, more than one maybe, on

**5** 

### certification that we want to clarify so we
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### can then start talking about the report to

**7** 

### ASRAC on that. Do you want to talk to them
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### about that issue?
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### MS. BARHYDT: So we had talked
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### about this, but we had never actually created

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### a slide, and so it kind of fell off the radar,

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### and that is timing. And I know with
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### commercial equipment the timing of

**14** 

### certification has been a concern: when do you
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### file your reports? And my expectation is
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### that, for stuff that is in your catalogs, it

**17** 

### would be before you put it into your catalog,
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### the same as it would be for any other product,
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### because it's something you've already
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### designed, it's something that you routinely

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### offer. And so I would think that those basic

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### models would be certified prior to

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 4**  **1 distribution and commerce, just like they are 2 for other types of products.**  **3 So I think the primary issue and 4 concern is with engineer to order, but I'm not**  **5 positive. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay, yes. Well,**  **7 engineer to order, one other thing I was 8 thinking of is, you know, we have the yearly**  **9 AHR expo, you might, like, prototype and show 10 some product then. You may not be shipping it**  **11 all, maybe, year or something. You might have 12 catalog data out then, stamped, probably,**  **13 preliminary at that point. Are you saying we 14 should have it put in for then, when the**  **15 product isn't available for maybe another six 16 to nine months, or should we --**  **17 MS. BARHYDT: But you are offering 18 it for sale, right?**  **19 MR. WHITWELL: But ratings may not 20 be finalized--**  **21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, ratings, and it 22 would probably be stamped preliminary is what** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 5**  **1 I'm saying. It would say, you know, we're 2 going to be coming out this year with da, da,**  **3 da, we think it will be, you know, this, and 4 it would probably be stamped, you know,**  **5 preliminary rating pending -- oh, production 6 might be, like, nine months to a year away.**  **7 A lot of times you're just there to tout, you 8 know, that it's coming down the line.**  **9 MR. HON: Energy Star has a 10 separate column, availability column, for date**  **11 first available. You can -- like, what we do 12 is we'll prototype it, run a couple of**  **13 prototypes, verify the energy efficiency. 14 We'll submit it, and we'll have a date which**  **15 may be three months ahead or maybe right away. 16 MR. EISNER: Do they, in any way,**  **17 indicate they might be preliminary? 18 MR. HON: If you have a future**  **19 date, they assume that it's preliminary data 20 if it's not technically the day you're**  **21 shipping it in, because, if you're ready to 22 ship, they want the date it's available, the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1 day the production is ready to go. So they've 2 always accepted a future date column with a**  **3 date of original production. That way, you 4 can list in advance. You're telling people**  **5 it's not going to be ready to produce, and you 6 can make up the date however you want, even**  **7 though production may not be ready for it. 8 You can still have it listed as a viable**  **9 product prior to that. 10 MS. BARHYDT: But in that**  **11 situation, Charlie, it sounds like you've 12 built the prototype, you've tested it, and you**  **13 have a rating. 14 MR. HON: Yes.**  **15 MS. BARHYDT: And I think what 16 they're saying is that they don't have a**  **17 rating yet. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, or we might,**  **19 we might. We would say preliminary. Like, we 20 believe it to be 12 EER. But in any data for**  **21 that, if they're announcing it at that kind of 22 AHR expo, you know, you're stamping it** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 preliminary, available, you know, later this 2 year with final ratings, those kind of things.**  **3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers 4 with PVI. In a case like that, Jill, can they**  **5 place an order for that product? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: No.**  **7 MR. MYERS: So in that respect, 8 it's not being entered into commerce. You're**  **9 simply talking about a future availability of 10 something --**  **11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 12 MR. MYERS: -- and what you expect**  **13 that to be. It would seem that entering into 14 commerce would be when you can make something**  **15 available. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: When you place it,**  **17 yes -- 18 MR. MYERS: When you accept an**  **19 order. Prior to that, it's talk. 20 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with**  **21 Mitsubishi. "Put into commerce," for those of 22 us who really put pride in it, means what it** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1 stands for. 2 MR. BALLO: That's going to have**  **3 its own definition of to distribute in 4 commerce. And among the things that are**  **5 included is to hold for sale or distribution 6 after introduction. Well, no, I guess, you're**  **7 right. To sell in commerce, to import, to 8 introduce, or deliver for introduction into**  **9 commerce or to hold for sale or distribution 10 after introduction into commerce. So,**  **11 basically, you're not selling it. 12 MR. MYERS: Right. You're just**  **13 talking about something. 14 MS. DANE: This is Mary from**  **15 Traulsen. I know that in my prior job there 16 were some things that could be shown at trade**  **17 shows and things like that, but we had to 18 identify it as a prototype or a trade show**  **19 model on the cover of it. So it wasn't 20 actually for sale, but we could take it out**  **21 there and show it to the market as it coming 22 out. So I know this is not, we're not** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1 reinventing something new here. It already 2 exists.**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: So one thought we 4 had was, we have a model that we might be able**  **5 to use from the lighting products. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Because some of**  **7 the lighting tests take well, over a year, 8 well, just under a year to run. So they**  **9 can't, before distributing it in commerce, 10 they can't say I run all my testing, I had a**  **11 valid rating completely in accordance with the 12 DOE test procedure, but they are required to**  **13 certify prior to distribution in commerce 14 something.**  **15 MS. BARHYDT: And so, in those 16 cases, they file an initial certification**  **17 report that basically says, I'm offering this 18 product for sale but, basically, my data is**  **19 preliminary and it's an indication that it's 20 preliminary versus -- and then, within one**  **21 year, they're required to file the real 22 certification report.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 MR. WHITWELL: But I think there's 2 a difference here, because we would not be**  **3 offering these for sale again. It's just to 4 give some information to potential customers**  **5 so they can start thinking that, they're 6 planning a building that might start**  **7 construction in a few months, they can start 8 thinking about what equipment they might be**  **9 putting into that and start getting, you know, 10 developing some building specifications around**  **11 that. But we would not be offering it for 12 sale at that time. We would not accept an**  **13 order. We can't take orders. 14 So maybe the certification ought**  **15 to be tied to when we have our selling tools 16 and everything in place for people to come in**  **17 and configure the product and actually get a 18 price on it and place an order.**  **19 MS. MEYERS: I mean, if you can't 20 order it, they can't go into commerce.**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: I know. I'm having 22 a little bit of difficulty with the idea that** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 you're advertising something that someone 2 can't order. I'm still trying to wrap my head**  **3 around that. 4 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with**  **5 Mitsubishi. You know, this is like deja vu 6 because we went, there was another rulemaking**  **7 we went through all this process on. And, you 8 know, commercial marketplace is a lot**  **9 different because engineers and architects 10 have to plan way out, sometimes a year in**  **11 advance, and you have to provide advanced 12 information on the products before testing may**  **13 even start. 14 I mean, you're going to know the**  **15 basic footprints and the general capacities 16 and everything, so engineers can do those**  **17 sorts of plannings for space and for capacity 18 requirements that they may have for their**  **19 building. But you have to provide that 20 information well, well in advance of the**  **21 product being put on a price sheet or even in 22 tools, as Bob was mentioning, or even in the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 final test. 2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers of**  **3 PVI. It's also worthwhile to note that this 4 is very common practice at commercial trade**  **5 shows, and there, many of those products that 6 are put out there to generate excitement and**  **7 that sort of thing, not for sale but to 8 generate interest, that never make it to**  **9 market. I've seen numerous products that were 10 displayed at trade shows and the**  **11 manufacturer's characterization of its 12 performance. You couldn't order it. You knew**  **13 you couldn't order it. This is like a preview 14 of potential coming products that we're**  **15 thinking about. And then when they get 16 further into it, you know, we can't make that**  **17 claim, you know, we can't build it the way we 18 thought we could or --**  **19 MR. FLY: Or nobody really wanted 20 it.**  **21 MR. MYERS: Or nobody really 22 wanted it. You put it out there, and nobody** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 wants it. 2 MR. EISNER: Is there anything in**  **3 the information that you pass out that 4 indicates that it is preliminary or not final?**  **5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Yes, this is 6 Jill from Trane. Yeah, I mean, at least when**  **7 I was in the marketing department, you always 8 stamped it preliminary, prototype, you know,**  **9 something like that in the brochure, whatever. 10 And now those are, a lot of times, electronic.**  **11 But, you know, either way, it's pretty much 12 stamped that way.**  **13 MR. EISNER: Laura, does that 14 address some of your concerns if the**  **15 information going out about the future product 16 indicates that it's preliminary?**  **17 MS. HOOTMAN: And it would never 18 have, like, the AHRI logo on it or anything**  **19 like that. We would never put that on it 20 because it's not --**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: But you're talking 22 about putting an efficiency rating on it, even** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 though the efficiency rating is marked 2 preliminary.**  **3 MS. MEYERS: You know, you might 4 say available in efficiencies 11 through 14** 
**5 EER. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.**  **7 MS. MEYERS: You're not giving the 8 exact, you're not listing exact model numbers.**  **9 You're talking usually about a group of 10 products that's going to be coming out and may**  **11 say, you know, available when, you know, but 12 you're not saying this has an efficiency, this**  **13 is certified for its efficiency. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So at what**  **15 point does it transition from preliminary to 16 something not preliminary?**  **17 MS. MEYERS: So, for us, when all 18 the exact -- this is Karen with Rheem. So,**  **19 for us, you actually, in our system, you turn, 20 you change the code to a sellable code. So**  **21 that makes it then you can order it and 22 there's a price out there. So once that model** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 number gets turned on, you know, that means we 2 can now accept orders for it and that means**  **3 we've done all, we've filed the certification 4 reports, we, you know, we're ready to go into**  **5 production, everything, you know, been checked 6 on the list.**  **7 MR. MYERS: So this is Frank 8 Myers, PVI. Our company, when it makes that**  **9 transition is when we take a product and 10 provide to our representatives that are**  **11 selling it, a package that includes a price 12 sheet and an authorization to fill an order.**  **13 So there's a, we have a formalized process 14 where a package goes out to our**  **15 representative. Prior to that, it's all 16 preliminary. And I suspect most manufacturers**  **17 have a similar formal introduction where this 18 is now, you know, it was coming soon and then**  **19 it's turned to now available. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So if we set**  **21 it at the time when you start actually taking 22 or are willing to take an order, that will** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 work for folks? 2 MR. NESHAN: It wouldn't work for**  **3 us because we actually sell it and we design, 4 we test, and then we ship it out.**  **5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would like to 6 think that if you were having a conversation**  **7 about an engineer to order product that, at 8 the very least, the intention is there, right?**  **9 I mean, you're not talking about a product 10 that you're going to engineer to order to not**  **11 meet the standard, right? 12 MR. NESHAN: Of course, but I do**  **13 not have specific numbers. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, you have to**  **15 have something that's close enough. I mean, 16 that's why the idea of preliminary consent.**  **17 And I don't know if it's only valid for 18 engineer to order products where your**  **19 preliminary estimate of its efficiency is 20 this, and maybe it's the standard always**  **21 because, by default, it has to be that 22 efficient. And then within a year, you can** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 come back and certify its actual efficiency, 2 and maybe it's still the standard or maybe you**  **3 want to find something higher. That's up to 4 you.**  **5 But, preliminarily, at the very 6 least, every one should be able to say that my**  **7 product will be the standard level, period. 8 I mean, you're designing, you know, and I**  **9 don't get it otherwise. 10 MR. NESHAN: Right now, we cannot**  **11 sell a product that doesn't meet the standard, 12 period.**  **13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 14 MR. NESHAN: So if you are selling**  **15 it, that implies that you are complying with 16 the requirements, number one. Number two, if**  **17 I'm complying, I can tell you what the 18 consumption is going to be -- let me finish.**  **19 We can tell you we are going to meet the 20 standard, but I cannot give you the specific**  **21 energy consumption. It's not an issue of 22 efficiency, it's an issue of energy** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 consumption. 2 MR. HON: Question: isn't that why**  **3 it's very handy to have an AEDM? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I mean,**  **5 that's the whole -- you should be able to 6 estimate something. And like I said, the**  **7 worst-case scenario is the standard energy 8 consumption. There is no, there is no lower**  **9 bar. 10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff out of**  **11 National. And to protect Laura's job, 12 obviously, we all have to, if you're going to**  **13 sell it, you're going to have to certify that 14 product somewhere. I think the bar, as DOE is**  **15 suggesting, is that you have to certify the 16 product before you sell it and, initially, you**  **17 can certify a preliminary number that's just 18 the standard if you're not sure and then come**  **19 back and do that later. 20 But somewhere you have to have**  **21 submitted information to DOE. You can't just 22 assume they're going to have their meets the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 standard and then, you know, they're going by 2 the list of what manufacturers have certified**  **3 versus assuming everything has been certified, 4 or that everything meets the standard.**  **5 MR. WHITWELL: Rusty Tharp sent in 6 a message, and he says that he believes that**  **7 AHRI has documented requirements for 8 preliminary ratings.**  **9 MS. HOOTMAN: So one question, and 10 I realize this is another department, but when**  **11 an auto show happens, you know, they come out, 12 they purport I'm going to have this new**  **13 electric car, and it's going to have such and 14 such miles per gallon. They may never come to**  **15 market with that car, so how can they sit 16 there and claim such and such miles per gallon**  **17 when, later, they have to literally say what 18 it is and put it on the car and all that kind**  **19 of junk? 20 MR. STARR: This is Lou Starr with**  **21 NEEA. You know, I think, in some aspects, the 22 manufacturers have an ability to have** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 upcoming efficiencies, it kind of helps drive 2 the market in terms of innovation, because**  **3 usually, you know, you want to see what else 4 is on the market. Who else, you want,**  **5 usually, three manufacturers, so you want to 6 see if the competition has products. So if**  **7 someone is really making a claim that's maybe 8 out there, you wouldn't necessarily start**  **9 thinking that that's available if nobody else 10 has it.**  **11 So I think, in some ways, it also 12 helps in terms of seeing the code directions.**  **13 It takes three years to produce a code, so you 14 have to have an idea on the general where**  **15 energy efficiency ratings are going. And one 16 way to see that is through upcoming products**  **17 that are being advertised at AHR or wherever 18 they have the product shows.**  **19 MR. EISNER: But the automobiles 20 are very different, though. They can**  **21 advertise whatever they want. The EPA tests 22 the vehicle and the numbers are put on the car** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 before it's sold. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, that's what**  **3 I'm saying. It's that disparity where they 4 can advertise it all the way up to the time it**  **5 goes in the marketplace when I can actually 6 buy that electric car, right?**  **7 MR. EISNER: They can, they can 8 sell the car with any fuel efficiency they**  **9 want. At the end of the year, they pay 10 penalties if they didn't meet overall**  **11 requirements. It doesn't vary by car. It 12 generally is vehicles in certain areas have to**  **13 meet certain levels, so it's a different 14 enforcement.**  **15 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with 16 AAON, and I just want to push something around**  **17 a little bit. Here I'm representing someone 18 that's not me, from the past. But you get into**  **19 the custom HVAC business, it's plan-effect 20 driven. There's a specification developed**  **21 with an engineer, typically working with a 22 particular manufacturer, to say three people** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 did it. This is equipment that's never been 2 built before by anybody. It's completely**  **3 custom. 4 So would all three of those**  **5 people, before they bid on that project, have 6 to enter a listing because they're offering it**  **7 for sale, or do you have to enter the listing 8 before you accept the purchase order at the**  **9 end? Because, otherwise, you're going to 10 generate a whole lot of listings for products**  **11 that will never be built. And I think that's 12 not uncommon in other areas of the HVAC --**  **13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So with that, I 14 mean, if we distinguish these, right, and we**  **15 say, for the majority, this case works, right? 16 I mean, for stock units, for new stock units** 
**17 -- 18 MR. FLY: For build to order.**  **19 MS. ARMSTRONG: This would just be 20 commercial. This will just be the topics we're**  **21 talking about here, but, at least right now. 22 Because of the negotiations, right. But, you** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 know, for engineer to order -- 2 MS. MEYERS: I don't know if**  **3 that's actually -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, individual**  **5 would be outside of the scope of the 6 negotiations.**  **7 MS. MEYERS: Yes, but your comment 8 that this would work for the majority of**  **9 commercial units, I don't know that I would 10 agree with that. I mean, I think that maybe**  **11 it -- it may be an overstatement. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Well, the**  **13 second part would be if, Laura adds something 14 that says engineer to order, and it's keyed to**  **15 the point of sale. In other words when you, 16 instead of when you offer it for sale, it's**  **17 actually when you sell. So in other words, 18 you aren't having to list a bunch of things**  **19 that you might sell. You are listing what you 20 have sold.**  **21 MR. WHITWELL: So when you say, 22 when you sold it, you mean when it's produced** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 and it actually goes to the customer? 2 MR. FLY: In accounting terms,**  **3 it's not sold until it ships. So when you 4 talk about your best manufacturers, you know,**  **5 when it's been beat into us early on that a 6 sale isn't a sale until it ships.**  **7 MS. MEYERS: The way we define 8 engineered to order, I think, you know, we**  **9 define engineered to order as something that's 10 not in a catalog and not advertised for sale.**  **11 And I'm saying that the instances that we're 12 describing covers more than just engineered to**  **13 order. 14 MR. EISNER: Could you repeat the**  **15 last part? 16 MS. MEYERS: I'm saying the**  **17 marketplace realities that we are describing 18 covers more than just engineered to order**  **19 products. 20 MR. FLY: Yes, I'm not sure that,**  **21 I'm not disagreeing with Karen at this point. 22 I think --** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, right. 2 MR. FLY: But that is a particular**  **3 case that I know is going to be a problem for 4 a certain class of manufacturers.**  **5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That should go to 6 his point.**  **7 MR. NESHAN: Except the problem 8 that we have, 80 percent of our equipment in**  **9 manufacturing are one of a kind. They don't 10 make two of a kind. So one custom design**  **11 specifically for an actual, let's say a 12 restaurant or some application. So each of**  **13 them would be a basic model by themself. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Could be. It**  **15 doesn't have to be. 16 MR. NESHAN: According to the**  **17 definition that you have, it is a basic model. 18 MS. BARHYDT: No. So, again, a**  **19 basic model is a grouping of models that are 20 similar, not identical. And it is at the**  **21 manufacturer's discretion to group those. So 22 if you have, let's say, an eight-foot case** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 that has 18 different lighting options -- 2 MR. NESHAN: I understand that.**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: -- that all have 4 different consumption, you can rate them**  **5 together -- 6 MR. NESHAN: I understand. But**  **7 that is not the case for us. Unfortunately, 8 you don't understand our business. Our**  **9 business is not making eight-foot cases with 10 different options. We make six with 6'2",**  **11 6'7", different fans, different boards, 12 different TDA and so on. Some are weird**  **13 shape. They don't look the same, so they are 14 not one basic model.**  **15 MR. EISNER: Does the last 16 sentence in the first paragraph address your**  **17 concern, though? Before you ship it, you have 18 to tell DOE what the number is.**  **19 MR. NESHAN: Of course. We test 20 it. As I told, we have to test to make sure,**  **21 we good, in a separate column, with DOE 22 numbers. We have to test, but they are one of** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 a kind. I don't have AEDM to calculate 2 anything. But I do is, after I've already**  **3 accepted the order, basically, entered the 4 commerce --**  **5 MS. BARHYDT: But I'm guessing 6 that if you have a 6'2" case, that is not a**  **7 standard case, it's not anything that's in 8 your product offerings, and it's built to**  **9 spec. 10 MR. NESHAN: Correct. But then I**  **11 cannot have a third-party certification for 12 every piece of equipment I'm manufacturing.**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: We don't require 14 third-party certification for every piece of**  **15 equipment you offer. 16 MR. NESHAN: I want this to be for**  **17 the record. 18 MS. BARHYDT: I just want to make**  **19 sure you understand that we don't -- 20 MR. NESHAN: I understand.**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: -- actually require 22 that.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 MR. NESHAN: For right now, that's 2 the case. I wonder what happens next month.**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: I think everyone 4 will tell you nothing, probably.**  **5 MS. DANE: But, Laura, some of the 6 small manufacturers that don't have internal**  **7 labs would have to go to third-party 8 certifiers, so there is some concern among**  **9 some of labs don't have or some of the 10 manufacturers that don't have their own labs.**  **11 MS. BARHYDT: In the AEDM 12 provisions, we'll allow them to make**  **13 estimations. 14 MS. DANE: I didn't say that they**  **15 knew how to use an AEDM. We'll work hard in 16 our industry to help them find the right**  **17 resources, but I'm saying, initially, the 18 major heart attack for manufacturers that are**  **19 very small will be, oh, my gosh, I don't have 20 a lab and I don't know how to use an AEDM.**  **21 MR. EISNER: This is, what I'm 22 getting confused on is, I understood this to** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 be a timing issue, and the AEDM issue had 2 already been resolved. You may need an AEDM**  **3 for that particular new model that you're 4 about to ship. This is the timing of when you**  **5 have to give that information to DOE, and 6 that's why I'm wondering why this is a new**  **7 problem with AEDM. 8 MR. HON: It's actually the usage**  **9 for AEDM, it's not any problem with it. It 10 allows you to estimate and submit and ship**  **11 without any testing. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that was**  **13 the idea of trying to, I guess, translate what 14 you were saying into COE words. Okay.**  **15 MS. BARHYDT: So does that 16 definition of engineer to order work? Because**  **17 I just made that up on the fly. 18 MR. MYERS: The product- this is**  **19 Frank from PVI. The product offering is, I 20 think, problematic because what we're saying**  **21 is we are offering it for sale, but we need to 22 get it and test it, you know, build it, test** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 30**  

### 1 it so it needs to be before it ships. It **2 wouldn't be in a catalog or associated 3 marketing literature, but we might create a**  **4 specification sheet that puts a number on it. 5 MS. MEYERS: Would it be covered**  **6 by an -- 7 MR. MYERS: It might be, but we**  **8 never know what they're going to ask for, so 9 it might not.**  **10 MR. HON: Okay. We spent a good 11 bit of time last night discussing this topic.**  **12 And in our group, we had several other things 13 that have to be considered here. Number one**  **14 is just because it is engineered to order, a 15 customer calls and gives you specifications**  **16 particular to their application, when does it 17 leave the engineered to order classification?**  **18 They call and buy one. Next month, they call 19 and buy two more. Next month, they call and**  **20 buy ten. 21 It's specific to that customer.**  **22 It's never in a catalog. It is a custom job**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 for them. When does it leave the engineered 2 to order category?**  **3 MR. EISNER: If you're simply 4 making a similar product, you've already given**  **5 DOE a number. Why do you have to give them 6 anything else?**  **7 MR. HON: The question is, 8 engineered to order has some special category**  **9 as far as advertising and things like that. 10 If we continue to sell the same product, we**  **11 would have a listed number for it, no question 12 about that. But when does it stop being an**  **13 engineered to order part and become an item 14 which is a custom manufactured part, which is**  **15 an ongoing product? 16 MS. BARHYDT: So if I'm**  **17 understanding correctly, it's not an issue for 18 certification, but it is an issue of having**  **19 that definition in the context of verification 20 testing because, at some point, it's going to**  **21 not be engineered to order anymore. 22 MR. HON: That's exactly what** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 we're asking because verification testing says 2 you can build one, as an engineer to order,**  **3 and it will be not subject to verification 4 testing. Now we're looking at it and saying,**  **5 okay, and this happens to us, we sell a 6 product, they like it, fine. But they want**  **7 another one just like it. How far do we go 8 before it's no longer that product?**  **9 MR. EISNER: Maybe it's just the 10 first time.**  **11 MR. HON: Well, we were discussing 12 that because, quite often, you'll build one or**  **13 build two. But we were saying, okay, we would 14 have to list it with the DOE and it would be**  **15 under an engineered product, thereby not 16 subject to verification. But at the end of**  **17 the year, we have to re-certify the products. 18 One of the options we discussed as the**  **19 possibility, at that point, you could no 20 longer leave it as an engineered product. It**  **21 would either have to fall off your list as no 22 longer available for sale or be moved to a** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 different category. 2 MR. EISNER: And what are the**  **3 reasons you would want to keep it in the 4 engineered category if you sell more than one?**  **5 MR. HON: No verification testing, 6 possibly. So if DOE calls in and says we want**  **7 one of those, it's an engineered product, and 8 we don't have to supply it because we don't**  **9 know that we'll ever sell it again. 10 MR. BALLO: But if you're**  **11 triggering leaving the engineered to order 12 product classification based on sales, I mean,**  **13 aren't you nervous about having to provide 14 sales information to the Department?**  **15 MR. BAUMAN: It's not based on 16 sales. The way, that was the discussion,**  **17 again, we had- Jeff Bauman from National- we 18 had last night, and we went around and**  **19 discussed, you know, sales and volumes and 20 things like that. And I think what we got to**  **21 was, taking all that aside and understanding 22 there's some single, we were talking about,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1 you cannot keep a model as an engineered to 2 order model for more than two years. You'd**  **3 have to move it to a different classification. 4 Yes, there's going to be some cases, maybe you**  **5 did sell a couple hundred, but you can't keep 6 selling that product as an engineered to order**  **7 because, chances are, and I think this is 8 going to go for probably outside of CRE, there**  **9 are probably going to be different 10 considerations for engineered to order**  **11 products as far as making them available to 12 the Department, potentially, for verification,**  **13 because an engineered to order, as John's 14 saying, he doesn't want to build that one, he**  **15 doesn't want to give that engineered product, 16 necessarily, for you, that you're going to use**  **17 and then you're going to have to throw it away 18 or whatever. But if he's selling that product**  **19 for multiple years, then it has to become an 20 engineered to order potentially for CRE and**  **21 maybe other classifications. Then it would 22 fall under validation where you might have to** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 send that in. 2 So that's where we took it away**  **3 from the submitting sales, volumes, and 4 numbers. It's not perfect, but it's better**  **5 than leaving it ignored or, you know, 6 potential --**  **7 MR. HON: The worst case for us is 8 we take a product, we discover, we build it,**  **9 we ship it, we've listed it in early December, 10 we ship it in mid December, it goes out, and**  **11 they call again in January wanting another 12 one. And we're supposed to re-certify our**  **13 products. So that's the reason the two-year 14 window was in there, so, no matter what we**  **15 did, we still had some period of time where 16 that product would be an engineered product**  **17 and not subject to validation testing. 18 But that's our proposal. We don't**  **19 have a perfect answer for it, but it is a 20 glitch in the system that we have to get**  **21 because, if not, everything would stay an 22 engineered product forever.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 MR. FLY: Mark Fly. If you get an 2 order, then do you re-enter it as an**  **3 engineered to order? 4 MR. HON: I don't believe that's a**  **5 fair assessment because, by then, you should, 6 you've made --**  **7 MS. BARHYDT: You didn't engineer 8 anything.**  **9 MR. HON: It's a reproduction. 10 It's a production product reproducing the same** 
**11 -- 12 MR. FLY: But it's very low**  **13 volume. 14 MR. HON: That's the difference**  **15 between custom ordered and design and 16 engineered products gets touchy because we**  **17 don't define that difference. 18 MR. BALLO: But what's to stop a**  **19 manufacturer from just calling it a different 20 basic model, even though, you know, because**  **21 the component level -- 22 MS. DANE: Absolutely nothing.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 MR. HON: The policing mechanism 2 is almost impossible.**  **3 MR. EISNER: What if a company 4 requests five or ten pieces of equipment all**  **5 built the same way, something you've never 6 built before? Amazon is going to build all**  **7 these warehouses and need refrigeration 8 equipment, so they said we want ten. Is that**  **9 built to order, or is that automatically 10 something else?**  **11 MR. HON: To us, the first ones, 12 the first set, whether it be a hundred or ten**  **13 or five or one, the first purchase does not 14 potentially have follow-up purchases would be**  **15 engineered to order in our case. 16 MR. EISNER: Even though they're**  **17 ordering multiple versions? 18 MR. HON: Yes, we've had many**  **19 customers come and say I want 200. We build 20 a very special 200 and never hear another word**  **21 from them, other than a warranty claim or 22 something like that. Never again. We'll have** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1 another customer say I want 100 of them, 2 totally different than anything we've built,**  **3 build one up, build 100 of them, ship them 4 out, next month we want 200, next month we**  **5 want 300, next month we want 200, next month 6 100.**  **7 MS. DANE: We're probably not 8 going to build on the order that you're**  **9 describing. We're probably not going to build 10 201 and keep that one in stock just in case**  **11 you want to verify it later. So you almost 12 can't tie it to the quantity. You almost have**  **13 to tie it to the number of, you know, total 14 sales, the frequency that it goes out because**  **15 it is an engineer to order. But if they come 16 back and say that was great then it's fair to**  **17 verify. 18 MR. FLY: So if you sell it five**  **19 times a year, it's different than when you 20 sell it 100 times?**  **21 MS. DANE: We said it wasn't 22 perfect. We're trying to find something that** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1 keeps people from cheating the system and -- 2 MR. HON: Well, what happens if**  **3 you sell it every year? A customer comes by 4 and buys one, next fiscal year he buys**  **5 another, next fiscal year he buys another 6 because he wants to add into his stock and he**  **7 wants everything to match so he has standard 8 service parts. When does it leave that, when**  **9 does it leave custom and become a product? 10 That's what we don't know.**  **11 MR. STANONIK: When you get this 12 order -- I'm trying to figure out how to ask**  **13 the question. When you get this order, how 14 often -- obviously, our specifying, I want a**  **15 product that does this, configured like this, 16 to everyone's specifications. Often, those**  **17 specifications include an efficiency 18 performance level. That's a secondary thing?**  **19 MR. BAUMAN: If we're selling that 20 product, we have to submit some number to DOE,**  **21 whether we're telling the customer that or 22 not. We have to tell DOE what the number is.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1 Another thing to keep in mind, 2 too, and, again, it's not being perfect or**  **3 whatever. This is why, as I said, when we're 4 talking CRE, we're hitting these issues and**  **5 bouncing back and forth. The other thing is 6 the idea would be, like we're talking about**  **7 basic models where you have different 8 lighting, different lighting, different**  **9 lighting. Realistically, and I'm trying to 10 make sure everybody's the same- that could**  **11 fall into the same basic model. That doesn't 12 necessarily even have to become an engineered**  **13 to order product. I don't know if we end up, 14 you know, throwing something in there about,**  **15 you know, an engineered to order is something 16 that would not fit in a basic model that's**  **17 built to order or something else. 18 But the engineered to order, in a**  **19 sense, would be something that, because of its 20 size, it's physical display area, or some**  **21 other factor, would not fit in as a basic 22 model. I think for CRE, for the majority of** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1 these products, and you're going to have, you 2 know, one customer's ordering something that's**  **3 so different, so unique that it's actually got 4 different characteristics, basic**  **5 characteristics, that's so special, but the 6 majority, I think, of the specials are done**  **7 by a lot of manufacturers, not everybody, but 8 a lot of manufacturers are variations of basic**  **9 models, not necessarily their own. But there 10 are those cases and, for some manufacturers,**  **11 that's a high percentage of theirs. 12 And, again, as I think Mark had**  **13 brought up yesterday, we're also trying to 14 balance that out between the complications of**  **15 it versus the impact on the national energy 16 consumption and things like that. Has it**  **17 become so, you know, are there so many models 18 out there that it's starting to affect or is**  **19 a significant issue that should be considered 20 by the Department?**  **21 I think, again, that's where we 22 kind of came back today. If somebody is** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1 selling that for multiple years, something is 2 going on there enough that it becomes, would**  **3 be of interest to them. That was trying to 4 get a simple cutoff point.**  **5 MR. HON: What's written here is a 6 problem because --**  **7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. It just helps 8 sometimes --**  **9 MR. HON: Yes, it's good to put 10 things down. I agree. Because, basically,**  **11 say that we have a customer who comes up to 12 some special item, and they want to test it.**  **13 And a lot of our customers are 14 multi-nationals. They will send in an order**  **15 for 20 pieces and 20 different addresses to 16 ship to.**  **17 MS. DANE: Or schools. 18 MR. HON: Yes, because they will**  **19 want to test it and have it multiple 20 locations, multiple climate environments, and**  **21 have their store manager report back how they 22 liked it.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1 MR. EISNER: But it's a single 2 order.**  **3 MR. HON: It's a single order. 4 MR. FLY: I'd say order instead of**  **5 shipment because a lot of large commercial 6 projects, orders or shipments are staged. You**  **7 know, they don't want to have to store it on 8 the site.**  **9 MR. HON: Right. You have four 10 pieces going to the same location, ship one,**  **11 and every month or two you ship the next one. 12 MR. FLY: They send another piece.**  **13 MR. EISNER: So does that work? 14 MR. HON: That works much better**  **15 for us, because -- 16 MR. EISNER: Where are we,**  **17 everybody? What's up on the screen right now? 18 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. Is**  **19 there any time period for that three orders, 20 or is this --**  **21 MS. DANE: No, no, we said that 22 you had to take care of it in a year.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1 MR. HON: Well, you could be 2 listed on the website for no more than two**  **3 years, or you could put a time window on 4 there. If we had available for shipment date**  **5 as a column, then you could put a time window 6 of six months, a year, some window in there**  **7 that you can't go past to be on that mark. 8 MS. BARHYDT: But if you engineer**  **9 one, and let's say five years from now they 10 come back, you still already engineered it**  **11 before. And if five years after that, they 12 come back for more, you still already**  **13 engineered it before. 14 MR. HON: But that's the question:**  **15 when does it come off the list as an 16 engineered product and things like that?**  **17 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman 18 from National. I'm surprised, though,**  **19 Charlie, are you going to send DOE every year 20 how many orders you took for every product**  **21 built? I don't think you can use, I don't 22 think you can use a number of -- I mean,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1 again, maybe that first order, Charlie tells 2 the guy or somebody that's not as reliable as**  **3 Charlie goes out and tells that guy, well, 4 give me more than three orders this year, give**  **5 me one order for 50 of them, rather than three 6 orders for two of them. That doesn't have, in**  **7 a sense, it doesn't have anything to do with 8 the volume impact. If we're not going to be**  **9 reporting, I don't think we want to get 10 involved in the reporting or entry systems or**  **11 volumes or sales columns. 12 MS. BARHYDT: We're not suggesting**  **13 that you report your orders. We're saying 14 that it is a self-certification system, and,**  **15 yes, DOE can check things if we have, if we 16 think that people are making false statements**  **17 on their certifications. But we're not asking 18 you to submit certification information.**  **19 We're merely saying that you know how many 20 orders you've had, and, when you exceed that,**  **21 you know what you are supposed to do. 22 MR. BAUMAN: If we're going to** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1 base the definition of something that we're 2 not, industry-wide, submitting information to**  **3 DOE on that on a regular basis, which is fine**
**4 -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: You're not sending**  **6 us test data on a regular basis either. 7 MR. BAUMAN: But we're not sending**  **8 it, telling you how many orders our order 9 entry system took that month. To me -- and**  **10 orders, in a basic sense, it's meaningless. 11 Charlie tells a guy give me one order for**  **12 10,000 of them, and then I don't have to worry 13 about it. I mean, it has to be based on**  **14 sales volume. If you're talking about any 15 number that's meaningful, you're talking about**  **16 sales volumes, not number of orders or 17 anything else, because, you know, Sean has**  **18 sold three of those, Charlie has sold 3,000 of 19 them, you know, it's worse when he's got a**  **20 submittal and Charlie doesn't have to do 21 anything.**  **22 MS. DANE: But, Jeff, how are all**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1 the industries going to talk about engineer to 2 order then? I mean, that holds true for**  **3 everybody. 4 MR. BAUMAN: That's why I went**  **5 from a basic, if it's more than two, if we're 6 going to just do this industry-wide in a way**  **7 that we're submitting enough data that can be 8 easily verified, without Laura calling you up**  **9 and looking at sales -- and we talked about 10 this again yesterday. You know, I walk into**  **11 Walmart and I see every Walmart I go into, I 12 see one of Charlie's units, and I'm just using**  **13 Charlie because he's a big guy -- 14 MR. HON: That's fine, I**  **15 understand. 16 MR. BAUMAN: -- if I go into**  **17 Walmart and I see this unit, and I've never 18 seen it and it doesn't show up in Charlie's**  **19 DOE listing, I'm going to be giving Laura a 20 call on the phone. I don't care how many**  **21 orders he took for that unit or whatever. 22 That's where I'm going to be calling in.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1 MR. HON: Jeff, I don't have a 2 problem with you turning it in. That's the**  **3 right thing to do. And our product, in this 4 room, is probably, as far as commercial**  **5 products, is most visible because you don't 6 get up on top of the roof and look at the air**  **7 conditioning system. 8 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with**  **9 AAON. You know, I wish that I could have a 10 design that would be valid for five years, two**  **11 years, or six months. But the fact of the 12 matter is, if I get another order for an**  **13 identical unit, even if they say it's 14 identical, I got to run it back through**  **15 engineering again because my suppliers have 16 changed something, the DOE regulations have**  **17 changed, the numbers have moved. The changes 18 causes those custom orders that aren't part of**  **19 a standard product line, we're afraid to build 20 it. I may not be able to build it because I**  **21 may not have that widget that I bought and 22 used last time because that guy went out of** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1 business or now it's built in China. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, I would agree,**  **3 Mark. We don't keep them in the standard 4 engineering databases and that kind of thing.**  **5 So each time it goes back through a design 6 process. That's the nature of what --**  **7 MR. FLY: And because of the way 8 it's done, we don't even have a way of finding**  **9 it again most of the time, unless it's a very 10 common repeat customer that we're designing**  **11 something for. And at that point, then I'm 12 wondering if it's engineered to order anymore.**  **13 MR. HON: This is exactly why we 14 spent an extensive amount of time yesterday**  **15 afternoon doing this exact argument, and 16 discussions and what ifs, what ifs, what ifs.**  **17 Because our niche is here, it doesn't mean it 18 fits your niche here. And that's what we're**  **19 getting into now, is we have every one of 20 these separate niches now falling into place,**  **21 and they definitely don't always agree because 22 a really big item, a really big boiler is a** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1 one-of-a-kind item, much more than ours is a 2 one-of-a-kind item. But if we make what we**  **3 consider one of a kind, it may be that 250 may 4 be too low for us. But they're going to have**  **5 to draw a line someplace, and if the 250 is a 6 number they can accept and that's workable for**  **7 other industries, that's fine. But if I make 8 a box fan, 250 units is nothing.**  **9 MR. NESHAN: I'll give you an 10 example. A particular customer, in a period**  **11 of five years, we supplied seven different 12 display cases, all of them different. At the**  **13 end of that five-year period, which was this 14 year, they said this one doesn't fit in their**  **15 program. Now, imagine if I have to go through 16 all the trouble of having every single one of**  **17 those seven display cases all through the 18 certification process, and at the end, it's**  **19 not going to be used. 20 MS. MEYERS: So, Charlie, does it**  **21 work for your industry if an engineered to 22 order product is one that is not covered by** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1 current AEDM? 2 MR. HON: Due to some of the**  **3 nature of some of the things we build, the 4 combinations thereof don't really give you a**  **5 good indicator yet. We've yet to develop a 6 usable AEDM.**  **7 MS. MEYERS: It wouldn't work right 8 for the AC, I would think, but I just was**  **9 curious. 10 MR. HON: I think that we have too**  **11 many iterations to consider them all in 12 certain, if we get too many variables into it,**  **13 to do an AEDM right now. We may be able to 14 develop in the future, but, at this time, we**  **15 have very limited amounts. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, depending**  **17 on the manufacturer's capability to derive 18 AEDM, it would just be hard to find an**  **19 equitable line. Like I say, I can't do an 20 AEDM just because they want to qualify for --**  **21 MS. MEYERS: Yes, I don't think, I 22 don't think it would work for AEDM.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1 MR. EISNER: Like Laura has put up 2 on the screen now is a safe harbor with an**  **3 addition that special circumstances you can 4 apply for a waiver. If you make your case to**  **5 the DOE, they'll let you continue to engineer 6 your product. There's not a basic minimum.**  **7 You don't have to do anything, as long as you 8 don't exceed that. But if you do believe you**  **9 have special circumstances, you apply for a 10 waiver. Again, you're making, you know, what**  **11 sounds like a good argument for very, very 12 different circumstances in companies.**  **13 MR. HON: For us, this would be 14 very seldom, if ever, used, but I understand**  **15 the need for other companies to have this 16 available because we have enough test**  **17 facilities and our test is short duration. We 18 could make it happen.**  **19 MR. EISNER: Would others be more 20 comfortable if the waiver language were added,**  **21 or do you think this is fine? 22 MS. DANE: It might save you some** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1 time during your NOPR if the waiver language 2 was added now.**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: I'd rather not. 4 MS. DANE: You'd rather not.**  **5 Okay. 6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers**  **7 with PVI. A two-year window was proposed that 8 exits the custom engineered category. If you**  **9 have that in the DOE listing proposal for two 10 years, it has to either come off or be turned**  **11 into a continuum. From a boiler/water heater 12 manufacturer perspective, I've been thinking**  **13 through the different combinations of it's 14 just one versus it's an initial order for 30,**  **15 and then we think that's the end of it, and 16 then the next year they say, hey, we added 17**  **17 more floors to this building, and now we want 18 20 more. But at some point --**  **19 MR. KLEISS: We can hear you. 20 MR. EISNER: Go ahead.**  **21 MR. SHEBIK: Okay, thank you. 22 Sorry. I'm having a hard time keeping up** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1 here. The one question I do have is where you 2 limit it to three orders per year. That's**  **3 going to be difficult because if we have a 4 specific type of case we build for a customer,**  **5 that's designed for a specific customer, 6 depending on how many stores are building a**  **7 year, we may give multiple orders throughout 8 the year. And once we engineer that case and**  **9 test it, it would be hard for me to track 10 additional orders they place if we're talking**  **11 about cases which may be transitional cases 12 that are put into a store and may transition**  **13 from one part of a lineup to another part of 14 a lineup. It's very difficult to track that,**  **15 as far as how the order is being placed, 16 because once we do the testing, once we**  **17 approve it, I have a very difficult time. I 18 may not be aware of additional orders that**  **19 come through for that. In my situation, it 20 would be very low volume. I don't have a**  **21 problem with applying 250, I do have a problem 22 with three per year. Three orders per year.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1 MR. NESHAN: I agree with you. I 2 mean, having three orders per year, it would**  **3 be very difficult. I mean, I understand the 4 250, but the three orders per year would be**  **5 very difficult to -- I mean, we could have 6 four different orders for four different**  **7 stores for four different locations. And a 8 supermarket, because of the way they track**  **9 their capital expenditure project by project, 10 it's not a blanket purchase order to cover**  **11 four different display cases. 12 MR. EISNER: So are you saying if**  **13 the three orders was changed to four or five, 14 you'd be okay?**  **15 MR. NESHAN: I would say take the 16 three or four out, period.**  **17 MR. EISNER: And just say 250 18 units in one year?**  **19 MR. NESHAN: Whatever number you 20 want to put in, but don't put number of orders**  **21 because of that issue. 22 MS. BARHYDT: So let me ask you** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1 this: if you get one order, you design it, you 2 build it, and then you get another order. Are**  **3 you not going back to the design you already 4 did? Are you starting all over from scratch?**  **5 MR. NESHAN: No, no, no. We get, 6 actually, in one day I might get five orders**  **7 for the same, that basic model -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.**  **9 MR. NESHAN: -- to go to five 10 different locations. But they issue purchase**  **11 orders by project, not by, you know, company. 12 MR. HON: We get blankets.**  **13 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, 14 PVI. Much like some others have said, if, in**  **15 our company, if a product is not in the 16 catalog, it's engineer to order. If they**  **17 bought one yesterday that was not in the 18 catalog and they wanted one, it's engineer to**  **19 order. If they buy one the next day, it's not 20 in the catalog, which it's not, it would be**  **21 engineer to order. 22 Obviously, we can look back, if** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1 it's that recent, and say nothing has changed, 2 we can do that again. The example I gave**  **3 earlier where we had an order for 30, thought 4 that was the end of it. A year later, the**  **5 customer came back and said, I want it just 6 like I did before, that comes to the**  **7 engineering process and we have to make sure 8 standards have not changed, that we can get**  **9 the products that we had before. And in this 10 particular case, we had to order some custom**  **11 controls because the controls we had used 12 previously were not available. So even though**  **13 it was the same thing from the customer's 14 point of view, it was a new model for us.**  **15 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with 16 AAON. Reading through that, I would feel more**  **17 comfortable if it said a custom product model, 18 rather than a custom product, because custom**  **19 people are going to want to have some 20 literature saying that I do this kind of work**  **21 and you need to narrow it down. I think what 22 you're really trying to get at is you don't** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1 have that model listed in a catalog that says 2 I can order X, Y, Z or any marketing**  **3 literature, like, on a website saying you can 4 order X, Y, Z.**  **5 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman 6 with National. When we're talking engineered**  **7 to order, aren't we specifically talking about 8 an engineered to order basic model? Because,**  **9 if not, you can have an engineered to order 10 product that's part of another basic model.**  **11 So I think we want to -- because how DOE is 12 going to know that is if you submitted that**  **13 basic model as its own -- you know, in my 14 mind, we're going to have a column somewhere,**  **15 maybe not his own public website, but he can 16 go find it if he issues the right paperwork.**  **17 You're going to submit that basic model is an 18 engineered to order basic model versus other**  **19 basic models you could put in there. And when 20 you get that order for a refrigerated case**  **21 that either has different lighting or is maybe 22 two inches longer, you could fit that in your** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1 basic model as something else, and you don't 2 have to worry about anything else with DOE.**  **3 It's a variation of something that fits into 4 something already submitted versus something**  **5 that's truly unique and engineered to order 6 product.**  **7 Now, again, maybe everything still 8 has to be submitted as engineered to order,**  **9 but it's an engineered to order basic model, 10 I think we're talking about.**  **11 MS. BARHYDT: So where you have a 12 menu system and people can choose things, is**  **13 that engineered to order, or is that -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Configure, configure**  **15 to order. 16 MS. BARHYDT: That's configured to**  **17 order. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And the**  **19 configure to order kind of menu system like 20 that, something else that I was thinking**  **21 about, at least I can think of a case where we 22 do that and the model number changes every** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 60**  **1 single time. And I'm talking about the entire 2 model number. There are parts of the model**  **3 number that stay the same, but, in a way, we 4 are generating a serial number along with it**  **5 every single time, so it has a unique 6 attachment. Later on, people can trace it for**  **7 parts and all of that kind of junk like that. 8 I would say, sometimes, I'm going**  **9 to asterisk that out, and you're never going 10 to see that part that is that unique**  **11 generation every single time because it has 12 nothing to do with basic model description or**  **13 the energy efficiency. There are other times 14 when that is relevant, and it might be for a**  **15 particular customer, national account, or 16 something like that.**  **17 MR. FLY: Basic models, depending 18 on what you pick, right?**  **19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 20 MR. FLY: So, I mean, you've got**  **21 to have a pattern when you build your 22 configurations that says these fall in this** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 61**  **1 group, these fall in this group, these fall in 2 this group.**  **3 MS. HOOTMAN: So some of us over 4 here were talking about, at least in HVAC, for**  **5 national accounts. We could have a 6 significant customer that comes to us and asks**  **7 for literally its own unique model number. No 8 one else can get that. Only that customer can**  **9 get that. And, of course, they come to us 10 with significant numbers, and we want to do**  **11 it, and all that kind of stuff. And so we'll 12 humor them and make them their own unique**  **13 model. 14 If that model number for that**  **15 customer is the same basic model as something 16 else we're already reporting, would we need to**  **17 put that model number as unique for that 18 customer in certification, or would asterisks**  **19 of that uniqueness be okay because we're still 20 --**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: The asterisks of the 22 uniqueness are okay.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 62**  **1 MS. HOOTMAN: Even if those 2 asterisks are in the front part of a model**  **3 number? 4 MS. BARHYDT: It doesn't matter**  **5 where they appear, just so long as we know 6 that there was, there were variations of it.**  **7 MR. WHITWELL: I think there might 8 still be an issue because the asterisk would**  **9 be too far upstream, and, I mean, that 10 wouldn't cover everything, right?**  **11 MR. STANONIK: Laura, are you 12 assuming that when they made their**  **13 certification that there would be information 14 provided to DOE that would make it clear that**  **15 the model that started "asterisk-asterisk-ABC" 16 is, in fact, let me call it a derivative,**  **17 wrong word probably, of model 693ABC or some 18 -- I mean, are you assuming that you'd have**  **19 some information to make that relationship 20 clear?**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So you said 22 he submitted it --** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 63**  **1 MR. STANONIK: The normal, the 2 typical situation is you're going to have**  **3 model 643 and then the asterisks with all the 4 variations. But it has a base that's usually,**  **5 usually the same at the beginning. And so I'm 6 saying, okay, and, in this case, he's got that**  **7 situation, and my question is when the 8 certification is submitted is there an**  **9 assumption that the manufacturer is going to 10 explain or somehow identify that, in fact,**  **11 that first model is, let's say, a child of the 12 second?**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: Our expectation is 14 if somebody submits star-star-star-A-B-C that**  **15 they will be offering any number of options 16 where star-star-star have other digits. And**  **17 so if we saw something, climbing up on the 18 rooftop and saw the model number up there, and**  **19 it said 893ABC, our assumption is that it is 20 star-star-star-A-B-C.**  **21 MR. STANONIK: Okay. But 893ABC 22 is, in fact, from the manufacturer's** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 64**  **1 perspective, what we call the core design. I 2 don't want to call it the basic model. It's**  **3 the core design. 893ABC is, in fact, that's 4 really kind of where they started from, and**  **5 somebody, a special customer came along, you 6 know, a national customer came along and said**  **7 I really want something that looks like 8 893ABC, but I want my own model number for God**  **9 knows why, and I'm willing to pay for it. And 10 it's like, okay, where do I sign kind of**  **11 thing, right? I mean -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: So you have a model,**  **13 you have a customer who comes along and says 14 but I really want to call mine Barhydt123.**  **15 MR. STANONIK: Right, right. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Barhydt123 really is**  **17 the same basic model possibly as 893ABC. It 18 doesn't look anything like it.**  **19 MR. STANONIK: What Bob was saying 20 is, okay --**  **21 MS. HOOTMAN: No one else can get 22 --** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 65**  **1 MR. STANONIK: They're not the 2 customer, right? From their perspective,**  **3 Barhydt123 is, in fact, 893ABC, but they have 4 some reason they can't say, you know -- it has**  **5 to be reported as a separate model, so they 6 would do the --**  **7 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with 8 AAON. Let me push this around in a different**  **9 way. DOE wants anything that's entered into 10 commerce or produced and sold in commerce be**  **11 associated with a basic model that's listed 12 with the Department, correct?**  **13 Now, it's the associated part 14 that's going to get complicated. Can I put**  **15 that in my literature that that is basic model 16 number one and put that on my nameplate that**  **17 that's basic model number one both on the 18 nameplate for 893ABC and Barhydt123, and does**  **19 that satisfy the requirement? Or do I have to 20 list every model number that I use in my model**  **21 number stream and the DOE directory somehow 22 associated with that?** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 66**  

### 1 MS. BARHYDT: So let me explain **2 the way it works for other products as a 3 baseline, but understand that it doesn't have**  **4 to work that way for these. So the way it 5 works right now, you have a basic model**  **6 number, which is probably going to be that, 7 based on this description. And you also have**  **8 to submit an individual model number, which 9 would be -- actually, let me change this. So**  **10 let's say we have, we're going to call it 11 basic model number ABC, and we say we have**  **12 individual model ABC and Barhydt123. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: And that individual**  **14 model number doesn't appear, right? 15 MS. BARHYDT: On the website?**  **16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Does the individual**  **18 model number show up on the website? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, just basic**  **20 model number. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Just basic model.**  **22 Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 67**  **1 MR. EISNER: And what tells you 2 that this is the same?**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: So the way it's set 4 up, this is actually columns, and so you have,**  **5 in one row, it says basic model ABC is 6 associated with these various individual model**  **7 numbers. And that's the way you would certify 8 it.**  **9 MR. FLY: But those individual 10 model numbers may have asterisks in them or --**  **11 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, as that one 12 does.**  **13 MR. FLY: Right. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: The idea is, like,**  **15 especially for the Barhydt123 -- 16 MS. HOOTMAN: And you're saying it**  **17 doesn't show up -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, absolutely.**  **19 MS. HOOTMAN: And that customer, 20 which is unique and no one else can buy it,**  **21 would never -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: But we know which** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 68**  **1 one it goes to. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, but would**  **3 never have the confusion of somebody looking 4 on a website and saying why can't I buy --**  **5 MS. BARHYDT: A Barhydt123, yes. 6 MS. MEYERS: So when you said you**  **7 know, you're saying the Department? 8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.**  **9 MS. MEYERS: So you have to list 10 these individual customized units with the**  **11 Department? 12 MR. BALLO: I thought the**  **13 individual model numbers were public info. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I can't remember.**  **15 MR. BALLO: I'm looking on the 16 slide, and it says that.**  **17 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, it does say 18 that? Okay.**  **19 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, there you go. 20 That's my problem and confusion is when**  **21 somebody were to look at this website and say, 22 you know, why can't I buy such and such, then** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 69**  **1 it becomes we have to go back and explain 2 contractual agreements, you know, that our**  **3 individual contractual agreements and, you 4 know --**  **5 MR. BAUMAN: How do they know, if 6 they go out and look at a product or an**  **7 inspector goes out and looks at a product and 8 says it's a Barhydt123, I don't see that in**  **9 the UL listing -- 10 MR. FLY: It has a UL listing on**  **11 it. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, it has a UL**  **13 listing number on it, and that file then will 14 go back to ABC.**  **15 MR. HASEMAN: This is Randy from 16 UL. It would be either listed in the file or**  **17 it would be multiple listed in the paperwork 18 somewhere.**  **19 MR. BAUMAN: A model number itself 20 would not directly tell them whether it's a UL**  **21 product or not. If they went to find the 22 model, they'd have to go to your file -** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 70**  **1 MR. FLY: But the listing, the 2 listing shows that it's listed.**  **3 MR. BAUMAN: If you can do a 4 search on your site by model number.**  **5 (Simultaneous speaking.) 6 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr**  **7 with NEEA. You know, from someone who used to 8 go out and pull model numbers all day off of**  **9 equipment and when you go back and do a 10 redesign of the stuff, when you can't find out**  **11 what that equipment and what the performance 12 is, normally when I used to do Google searches**  **13 I would start out, I'd always use the first 14 six or seven digits to help me find stuff. It**  **15 makes it very hard for people to come back and 16 do redesign of stuff. And when you have**  **17 Barhydt123, that's the same as you really, you 18 know, it makes it very difficult. And I**  **19 understand maybe why they're doing it, but it 20 kind of, it creates a lot of problems down the**  **21 road, I'll just say, not having a model number 22 that reflects what's the equipment performance** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 71**  **1 or a way to find that somehow. 2 MS. BARHYDT: So would it help you**  **3 all, I don't know if it will help me, but 4 would it help you all if we dispensed with**  **5 this but required you to provide this on all 6 products?**  **7 MR. FLY: On all product 8 identification.**  **9 MS. BARHYDT: So that if -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: It had to be labeled**  **11 on -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, so that the**  **13 product has to have the basic model number, 14 but the basic model number --**  **15 MR. BALLO: The product and the 16 literature.**  **17 MS. HOOTMAN: No, I don't want to 18 change labels.**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: It was a thought. 20 MR. BALLO: That's an IT project.**  **21 MS. HOOTMAN: That's why I said, 22 you don't want to know the time that it would** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 72**  **1 take to get that done. 2 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman.**  **3 I'm going to go back again to my question 4 about the safety listing. I mean, we're all**  **5 concerned in energy efficiency, and it's 6 important, but, as we talked about, safety we**  **7 think is -- and they found a way to do this 8 with safety that somebody who went and find**  **9 Jill's product or Bob's product and, from that 10 tag, go back and called and, in some cases,**  **11 and I didn't realize this, but you may not 12 find that. When Louis goes out to look at**  **13 that product, if he was a safety inspector 14 versus an energy inspector, that he's going to**  **15 have to call up UL and give them the 16 information for that. And in this case, you**  **17 know, getting more job security, they're going 18 to have to call Laura instead of UL up to find**  **19 out what that model and, indeed, make sure 20 that that model is covered under some basic**  **21 model. 22 MR. STANONIK: Jill, if that** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 73**  **1 listing showed up, Barhydt123, if that showed 2 up in a directory, is your only concern that**  **3 somebody might order one and you can't sell 4 it, you can't sell it with that model number**  **5 to them? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And any**  **7 contractual agreement I might have over that. 8 MR. STANONIK: Well, wait a**  **9 minute. But the premise here was that, in 10 fact, it is the same as ABC. You just had to**  **11 give it a separate model number because that's 12 what your customer asked for.**  **13 MS. HOOTMAN: It's the same as ABC 14 as far as the basic model is concerned, but**  **15 that customer might want to know what are the 16 other unique features of it and can I have it?**  **17 And, again, I don't want to expose my 18 contractual agreement that might happen on**  **19 that unique one. 20 MS. MEYERS: This is Frank Meyers**  **21 of PVI. This situation has existed for quite 22 some while in California. I don't know if** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 74**  **1 anyone else does it for California Energy 2 Commission, but we actually have models that**  **3 we identify, I'll say yellowbird123, and 4 there's a yellowbird456 and a yellowbird789.**  **5 And on our decal, and I understand it's a 6 reprint and we had to go through that, but it**  **7 was worthwhile for us. And we actually 8 certified the YB123, YB456, and we identified**  **9 on the decal as the CEC model number, because 10 they want their model number, and then we put**  **11 in what the customer wants it, using your 12 example, in the one that just says model**  **13 number. 14 So if you're looking for the**  **15 listing of what -- and we advertise it. When 16 we show Barhydt123, it would say CEC YB123.**  **17 So if you want to know what the performance 18 is, you go look at YB123, and that will tell**  **19 you exactly what the performance is. And then 20 we actually link that on our literature to the**  **21 Barhydt123. So we identify the performance 22 with one number and then -- well, and I** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 75**  **1 understand the difficulty. I do understand 2 it.**  **3 MS. HOOTMAN: Or you're looking at 4 three years. I mean, it's a long time. Those**  **5 things have to get reprogrammed. It is a long 6 time to re-label.**  **7 MS. BARHYDT: So Jill has a 8 concern about --**  **9 MS. HOOTMAN: Even when I have 10 lots of business.**  **11 MS. BARHYDT: Jill has a concern 12 about displaying individual model number on**  **13 the website. Bob, was yours the opposite, 14 that your concern was not showing individual**  **15 -- 16 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I had two**  **17 concerns. One is showing individual model 18 numbers, and the other was that I wasn't**  **19 clear, I clarified that, but I was concerned 20 about some of our engineer to order products,**  **21 whether we had enough commonality with our 22 standard products. But I'm okay with that** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 76**  **1 now. 2 MR. HON: Well, let me ask one**  **3 question. If I see, if I'm a government 4 official and I see ABC is the basic model**  **5 number. Then I can go into the catalog, and 6 every place there's an asterisk in there I can**  **7 put in whatever option I want to put in there 8 and order it and get one for verification**  **9 testing, which could be the most 10 energy-consuming factors in the catalog.**  **11 MS. BARHYDT: Provided it's not 12 one of the things that we've agreed not to --**  **13 MR. HON: To test. 14 MS. BARHYDT: -- test.**  **15 MR. HON: That agreement goes 16 until the next rulemaking, correct?**  **17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Well, until 18 the next standard, yes.**  **19 MS. HOOTMAN: Just to clarify 20 something, I mean, because Tim had said, right**  **21 now what we have is individual model number is 22 showing up, but it would be, I was going to** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 77**  **1 say it would be our desire, at least my 2 desire, that it does not show up. And then I**  **3 can cover these issues that I have on the 4 contractual agreements.**  **5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, Tim. So I saw 6 you reacting a little bit there. Is your**  **7 concern that you'll then see a unit that says 8 Barhydt123, and you won't be able to tie that**  **9 back to ABC? 10 MR. BALLO: Yes.**  **11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 12 MR. BALLO: I mean, I'm not**  **13 adverse to the other option of, you know, 14 somewhere on that unit is stamped basic model**  **15 ABC. I understand that's -- to me, leaving it 16 up to the manufacturers to do one or the other**  **17 would be fine but -- 18 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,**  **19 PVI. I like the thinking that that might be 20 an option, you could do it one way or the**  **21 other. The reason that we did this on a 22 couple of model families with CEC is we have** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 78**  **1 variations in the model number that would be 2 very difficult to track, and we would have**  **3 been putting into their listing probably 20 or 4 30,000 model numbers. Now we put in maybe 20**  **5 with this designation, but that number is 6 stamped in our literature for every one of**  **7 these 20,000 models and it's stamped on the 8 product. So that really works for some**  **9 manufacturers. 10 MS. MEYERS: If we have to do**  **11 this, you're getting back into trillions of 12 combinations.**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, with asterisks. 14 You have a trillion with asterisks.**  **15 MS. HOOTMAN: Actually, I came up 16 with 1.6 million but --**  **17 MR. EISNER: Maybe I'm limited by 18 thinking about commercial products for**  **19 consumers in general, but when you make a 20 replacement part for the Barhydt and the ABC**  **21 model and it fits both, do you label it in 22 such a way that the owner of the product knows** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 79**  **1 it will fit this model or that model, or do 2 you hide the model that's made especially for**  **3 one -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: It's all tracked off**  **5 the serial number. The serial number comes 6 back through the system, and they can, they**  **7 can tell the difference between the two. 8 MR. FLY: And you have to actually**  **9 look on a work order to find the internal 10 parts.**  **11 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, 12 PVI. That characterization certainly fits our**  **13 mode. If someone wants a part, a replacement 14 part, or a replacement assembly from us,**  **15 they'll have to provide the serial number, and 16 we go back and look at the work orders and say**  **17 here's how that unit was actually put 18 together, and then you can provide them the**  **19 appropriate part. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Like a VIN number.**  **21 MR. EISNER: They come into you in 22 order to get the part and you tell them this** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 80**  **1 will fit, rather than having a product that's 2 labeled to fit either machine.**  **3 MR. AMRANE: Maybe one suggestion 4 here. If, for example, as a manufacturer, you**  **5 supply the model number, this will not be 6 visible on the website but would be something**  **7 that DOE will have. And if you're interested 8 in that model number, you could contact DOE**  **9 and ask for it. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: And, actually, they**  **11 should understand that because they get those 12 kind of questions right now.**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: So how are you doing 14 it?**  **15 MR. AMRANE: That's a good 16 question.**  **17 MR. KLEISS: Help me understand 18 this. How do you market and advertise these?**  **19 How do you identify them as being part of a 20 product family?**  **21 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. So Barhydt123 22 is not marketed. It's a unique customer that** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 81**  **1 came in and said I'm going to give you a 2 million dollars of business if you will make**  **3 me this, and it needs to be called Barhydt123. 4 And we say, for a million dollars, we'll do**  **5 it. It's not in a catalog. 6 MR. STANONIK: It's not being**  **7 private branded. They're being made with 8 whatever and installed for that customer,**  **9 right? They're not being further sold? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: There's not a**  **11 private brand on it or anything like that, but 12 they just wanted a unique model.**  **13 MR. EISNER: When you do that, 14 does that go directly to the company that's**  **15 going to use it or does it go to a 16 distributor, like a Sears?**  **17 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, it could be 18 both.**  **19 MR. EISNER: Well, how does Sears 20 sell it?**  **21 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not the 22 distributor, not to Sears, per se. It's not** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 82**  **1 to somebody who is going to -- it's to a 2 contractor --**  **3 MR. EISNER: Who's going to put it 4 in a building.**  **5 MS. HOOTMAN: -- or through our 6 independent wholesale distributors who are**  **7 then going to sell to a contractor. 8 MR. EISNER: Will a wholesale**  **9 distributor have repair parts for -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, that's --**  **11 MR. EISNER: -- Barhydt and -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: -- their --**  **13 MR. EISNER: And how does the 14 distributor know?**  **15 MS. HOOTMAN: The serial numbers. 16 MR. EISNER: The same way you**  **17 know? They have to come in with a serial 18 number.**  **19 MS. HOOTMAN: Serial number. All 20 the parts, regardless of where the parts come**  **21 in, because they can be company owned or 22 independent, also.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 83**  **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, it really 2 just takes two groupings, right?**  **3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's why --**  **5 I mean, that's the question to you guys. 6 Right now, you run a program that if something**  **7 falls in the grouping that a manufacturer has 8 elected, it causes some action to a lot**  **9 broader spectrum. So how do you do that? How 10 do you -- what is that process now for**  **11 identifying what that broader spectrum is from 12 the election made by the manufacturer?**  **13 Because it's the same thing we're trying to do 14 here.**  **15 MS. BARHYDT: Would they still not 16 tell you about Barhydt123?**  **17 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, wait a minute. 18 Would I? Because, was it my basic model, ABC**  **19 asterisk, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. I'm saying 20 that Barhydt123 is the same as basic model**  **21 dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And, you** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 84**  **1 know, customers are not going to be looking 2 for that model on this AHRI directory anyway**  **3 because it's not available to them. You know, 4 these are not available to just anybody.**  **5 They're specially -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: And if you want to**  **7 put them on the spot, I mean, it's been years 8 ago, but we had that. And I remember I wrote**  **9 the letter to you guys that said this is this, 10 this is this, it's unique for this customer,**  **11 but it is exactly this, and here's the UL file 12 and here's the actual file that shows that**  **13 they're exactly the same. 14 MS. MEYERS: It's like you're**  **15 building a specialized unit for the, you know, 16 for the Olympics for the luge competition**  **17 that's going to be held in the United States. 18 It's a special-ordered unit, or it could even**  **19 be a special building for a national account. 20 Those are the types of things that you get**  **21 into. 22 MR. EISNER: You sold your** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 85**  **1 equipment to a company that wanted to put it 2 in ten buildings. It sold one of the**  **3 buildings, and Barhydt bought one of those 4 buildings and saw the model number on there.**  **5 How do they work with you to -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: They have to come**  **7 back to the serial number. 8 MR. EISNER: They come back with**  **9 the serial number, but they say I want to know 10 how this is different from other products or**  **11 something like that, would you tell them? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, you could, back**  **13 through the serial number. 14 MR. EISNER: But, in other words,**  **15 you wouldn't keep that secret, that all the 16 other --**  **17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, I mean -- 18 MR. EISNER: -- special machines**  **19 in the other buildings -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: -- we'd say you**  **21 bought the Barhydt, you know, building, didn't 22 you? Because we made that for Barhydt.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 86**  **1 MR. DOPPEL: There would be other 2 basic information on that label, like the**  **3 voltage, the capacity. I mean, that's already 4 on the product label.**  **5 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr at 6 NEEA. Just from doing a lot of that work,**  **7 well, Trane is still in business but a lot of 8 other companies aren't. You go out and look**  **9 at the equipment, look at the model number, 10 and you'll have the serial number. If the**  **11 company is still in business, you can call 12 them up and, with the serial number, get the**  **13 information on that particular model. But all 14 of them aren't in business anymore and so --**  **15 MR. AMRANE: But the DOE doesn't 16 --**  **17 MR. STARR: Well, to the extent, a 18 lot of times you can look up, with the model**  **19 numbers you can find a lot of stuff just on 20 Google. But if you've got Barhydt123, you're**  **21 not probably going to find information. It's 22 not available.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 87**  **1 MR. DOPPEL: But the label has to 2 have the capacity and the voltage on it.**  **3 MR. STARR: It's not going to have 4 all the kind of stuff that they're trying to**  **5 hide or don't want people to know, just the 6 stuff that you'd put in --**  **7 MR. DOPPEL: What else would you 8 need?**  **9 MR. STARR: Well, you actually 10 need to know what the components of the**  **11 equipment are in there, how many refrigeration 12 circuits, I mean, what pressure size. I mean,**  **13 the stuff, if the model number had the stuff 14 in it, they wouldn't need to, they could just**  **15 open and look in the piece of equipment to 16 figure out what's special about, you know, the**  **17 control sequences, you know. The efficiency 18 of how that thing works is the main thing**  **19 you're looking for. 20 MR. DOPPEL: But the DOE listing**  **21 of products should not be the source for that 22 kind of information.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 88**  **1 MR. STARR: Well, I'm just talking 2 about the model number, being able to figure**  **3 out -- 4 MR. DOPPEL: Well, I know, but**  **5 that should not be the -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: A replacement 10 and**  **7 15 years down the road, if that model is out 8 of existence, it's not on the DOE website**  **9 anymore. 10 MS. MEYERS: And this is Karen**  **11 with Rheem. I do not want you to be able to 12 determine that information from the model**  **13 number, how I get my efficient -- that's 14 design information, and that should not be**  **15 easily, I mean that's like giving you my 16 prints.**  **17 MR. STARR: Well, just even 18 knowing the efficiency would be helpful.**  **19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, but you're not 20 going to go back to the DOE website for the**  **21 efficiency because it would have been taken 22 out of there.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 89**  **1 MR. STARR: And it's not the DOE 2 website I'm necessarily talking about. It's**  **3 just having a model number that actually means 4 something. It helps it identify what you have**  **5 and, you know -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: I understand, yes.**  **7 We get calls on replacement all the time. 8 MR. STARR: I mean, especially if**  **9 you go back -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: And I think each of**  **11 us have done different little databases on our 12 own to try and figure out stuff. But, you**  **13 know, that's curb adapters and, you know, all 14 the people that do that --**  **15 MR. STARR: I mean, there's a lot 16 of engineering design. You have to know**  **17 what's there in order to start redesigning. 18 You have to know fan, motor -- a whole bunch**  **19 of stuff. You could spend all day looking at 20 the unit, but, usually, you don't have that**  **21 much fee to do it and you're still, at that 22 point, guessing.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 90**  **1 MR. DOPPEL: I think we just have 2 to set aside that the DOE listing of products**  **3 is not going to be a source for replacement 4 because, again, as Jill said, those models, by**  **5 the time a replacement comes, those models 6 will no longer be on that list.**  **7 MS. HOOTMAN: If we're still in 8 business and we're --**  **9 MR. EISNER: If the solution to 10 your problem and industry's problem is whether**  **11 it should be posted on the DOE website, what 12 is the problem with not posting it on the DOE**  **13 website? Why don't we focus on that for a few 14 minutes?**  **15 MR. BALLO: I guess my concern is 16 seeing a listing for a product and not being**  **17 able to trace it back to make sure it's been 18 certified to DOE.**  **19 MR. EISNER: Where would you see 20 the listing for the product?**  **21 MR. BALLO: If it's a product 22 that's never going to be marketed, then that's** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 91**  **1 obviously not something I'm ever going to see. 2 MS. BARHYDT: You're not climbing**  **3 on top of those buildings? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not going to**  **5 be your focus either because the numbers of 6 those sold are going to be low, the impact of**  **7 them. It's not negligible, but it's not going 8 to be your --**  **9 MR. BALLO: So I guess, you know, 10 I've heard that it's going to take a few**  **11 years, it would take a few years, extra time 12 to implement a system that would enable this**  **13 kind of checking. And I'm wondering if that's 14 a possibility, if there was a further date**  **15 out, another six months to a year beyond the 16 18 months, after which there would have to be**  **17 some sort of a, you know, a marketing 18 requirement or a product literature**  **19 requirement that would enable the tracing back 20 from model number or from the model back to**  **21 the basic model. 22 MR. DOPPEL: What are you trying** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 92**  **1 to get? I mean, because we're talking about 2 basic models, and these things are all, you**  **3 know, variations off of basic models. So if 4 the basic model is listed, I mean, what does**  **5 this other stuff matter? 6 MR. BALLO: I'm concerned, I guess**  **7 I'm concerned about code compliance, if that, 8 if that would be helpful for code compliance.**  **9 And I don't know, but that's my hunch that it 10 could be.**  **11 MR. DOPPEL: It's all for the 12 basic model, and that's everything that we've**  **13 talked in here so far about having basic model 14 definition. You know, then anything, like**  **15 we've gone through all the accessory items. 16 A lot of these one-offs that they're doing or**  **17 the engineered models are just adding 18 different types of controls, different color**  **19 for panels, different markings, stuff like 20 that. It's not changing the refrigeration**  **21 system. 22 MS. MEYERS: And, Tim, I don't** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 93**  **1 think you can put that burden on the 2 manufacturers, code compliance.**  **3 MR. BALLO: No, I'm not. I'm 4 saying for someone who's out trying to verify**  **5 code compliance, if they have an ability to 6 identify the efficiency of the unit that they** 
**7 see -- 8 MS. MEYERS: I know. But to make**  **9 your job easier, you're trying to increase the 10 burden on manufacturers by a tremendous**  **11 amount. 12 MR. BALLO: I'm not saying to make**  **13 the job easier. I'm saying to make the job 14 possible, to verify code compliance.**  **15 MS. MEYERS: Okay. So, still, 16 that burden is coming back to the**  **17 manufacturer. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, a building**  **19 code person is looking at it from the 20 submittals, right?**  **21 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. It makes it 22 different. This is not the way that code** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 94**  **1 should be verified. They'll look at the 2 blueprints, if it's how it's specified --**  **3 MR. STARR: Well, you should be 4 looking at the -- that's one of the things**  **5 that happens: you get the submittal and the 6 piece of equipment on the roof is not what's**  **7 on the submittal. That's an other thing that 8 happens. They'll go through the code**  **9 department to send the submittals in, and the 10 contractor will have gotten, instead of**  **11 putting XY unit up, they'll put something 12 different then the submittal.**  **13 MS. HOOTMAN: And that's the 14 contractor's job to show that what he --**  **15 MR. STARR: Well, it usually comes 16 to the engineer's job because it doesn't**  **17 perform because they put in a cheaper model. 18 And then you go up, and, when you start to**  **19 have engineering problems, the first thing you 20 look is to see what's on the submittal is**  **21 actually what's on the roof. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, and that's what** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 95**  **1 I'm saying is it's between the contractor and 2 engineer. The contractor put something in**  **3 wrong, the engineer of record will have to 4 certify that what he specified was put in or**  **5 substituted. 6 MR. STARR: But to the extent that**  **7 the code official can't identify what's on the 8 submittal, that's also how they check out to**  **9 see. When they go to do their code walks, 10 they're going to use -- hopefully, they'll be**  **11 some way just to see efficiency on the label 12 and that will help out.**  **13 MS. HOOTMAN: But the code 14 official is not just looking for efficiency.**  **15 That's -- 16 MR. STARR: Yes.**  **17 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, they're 18 looking for a lot of other things. Now, was**  **19 the right electrical pulled? Was the right 20 overcurrent protection pulled? Was it, you**  **21 know -- I mean, there's all the other stuff, 22 so they're not just looking for that. And** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 96**  **1 those submittals, whether they're right or 2 wrong, a substitution happened, have to have**  **3 all that information on it so that they can 4 say that all that is done.**  **5 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with 6 Mitsubishi. So if it's a national account**  **7 job, then there's not going to be a 8 substitution for some other equipment. I**  **9 mean, that just, that just won't happen. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Or a special**  **11 customer, whatever. 12 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, or if it's a**  **13 special customer, there's not going to be a 14 substitute.**  **15 MR. STARR: Well, they get them 16 mixed up. This unit is over here, and this**  **17 one is over here. 18 MR. DOPPEL: Well, you know, the**  **19 manufacturer can't help that. 20 MR. STARR: No. But, I mean, the**  **21 ability to identify a piece of paper to what's 22 on the roof is, you know, you do need** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 97**  **1 something. 2 MR. WHITWELL: They should be able**  **3 to do that because the model number and the 4 designation on the piece of paper should match**  **5 what's on the roof, right? 6 MR. STARR: Well, they get things**  **7 mixed up. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Well, then if they**  **9 get mixed up then they know, hey, this doesn't 10 match, you know.**  **11 MS. HOOTMAN: The contractor has 12 to come out and be responsible for that.**  **13 MR. STARR: I mean, you want 14 something on the piece of paper to somehow**  **15 identify with the piece of equipment up there. 16 Now, hopefully, maybe this --**  **17 MR. WHITWELL: It will be the 18 Barhydt123.**  **19 MR. STARR: But if they're all 20 Barhydt123's, you know, if it's the same model**  **21 or if there's variations of that Barhydt -- 22 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe there would** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 98**  **1 be a Barhydt123, there would be a Barhydt124, 2 you know.**  **3 MR. EISNER: Louis, you're talking 4 about somebody who's going in and looking at**  **5 the piece of equipment and wanting to know 6 about that piece of equipment and can't find**  **7 the model number listed on the DOE website? 8 MR. STARR: Well, no. I'm talking**  **9 about just the code aspect of looking at stuff 10 and identifying a piece of paper to the**  **11 equipment. 12 (Simultaneous speaking.)**  **13 MR. EISNER: Guys, those side 14 conversations, the court reporter, he doubles**  **15 his fee. 16 (Laughter.)**  **17 MR. AMRANE: I think we are, we're 18 talking about adding cost for, you know,**  **19 another label or whatever, something that 20 might not even be an issue. So let's focus on**  **21 the main thing. I don't know. I mean, do you 22 really need that model number?** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 99**  **1 MS. MEYERS: The model number is 2 on the nameplate on the unit. So if you need**  **3 the model number, you can climb up on the roof 4 and look at the nameplate on the unit, and you**  **5 get the model number. 6 MR. STARR: And you can get the**  **7 efficiency somehow, correct? 8 MS. MEYERS: Well, you can become**  **9 a Rheem contractor and you can call us and we 10 can come, you know --**  **11 MR. STARR: So how does a code 12 official walk up on the roof and look at the**  **13 model number to determine that this is a 14 serial --**  **15 MR. EISNER: Can somebody online 16 who's talking mute your phone?**  **17 MR. STARR: Okay. EER. Sorry. 18 Well, no, I mean, that's a question. That is**  **19 something they do. 20 MS. MEYERS: But the code official**  **21 should have done that homework before he 22 allowed the unit to be installed. So then** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 100**  **1 he's got -- 2 MR. STARR: In other words, on the**  **3 submittal. 4 MS. MEYERS: Right. That**  **5 information is done before the unit is 6 installed if the code official is following**  **7 the proper procedures in his town. And they 8 differ by city. Building codes differ by**  **9 city. 10 MR. STARR: Well, it's basically**  **11 just a submittal that the energy efficiency is 12 going to be listed; is that right?**  **13 MS. MEYERS: It differs by city. 14 MR. STARR: Is that on the**  **15 Barhydt123? Will they have the energy 16 efficiency rating?**  **17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Not on the 18 nameplate.**  **19 MR. STARR: No, on the submittal. 20 MS. MEYERS: Yes, on submittal.**  **21 If that current, if that building code in that 22 city requires it, it will.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 101**  **1 MR. BALLO: But would the 2 submittal have the basic model?**  **3 MS. HOOTMAN: No. 4 MR. BAUMAN: So you get there, but**  **5 you might have to go through UL to get there. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Ron, go ahead.**  **7 MR. SHEBIK: Yes, I'm sorry. 8 Manufacturers will label products with basic**  **9 model. Is that labeling -- I'm sorry? 10 MS. BARHYDT: That was just a**  **11 thought, Ron. There was some discussion. I 12 typed that up there because someone suggested**  **13 it, but we haven't even discussed it yet. 14 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. I would be,**  **15 obviously, I'd be opposed, very opposed to any 16 changes on the nameplate because that would be**  **17 a nightmare for us to do. It could be an 18 additional label. That could be discussed,**  **19 but anything on the nameplate I'd be very 20 opposed to.**  **21 MR. NESHAN: To add to that, it's 22 not only just for us but also our customers** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 102**  **1 are using that model number in their system. 2 They have to go and make changes in their**  **3 purchasing department how they place orders. 4 So it's going to be very costly all around.**  **5 MR. BALLO: So I guess, 6 provisionally, I'm okay with going forward**  **7 where we would only have the ability to trace 8 anything that shows up on the literature or**  **9 the manufacturer's website back to the DOE 10 website, so the Barhydt123 would not have to**  **11 be traceable. I just, I guess I need to talk 12 to more people who do code work and see if**  **13 they have any concerns about that. But it 14 sounds like it's a pretty small issue.**  **15 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with 16 AHRI. I just want to make sure, I just want**  **17 to confirm something. So, Jill, in your case, 18 if you had the Barhydt123, when you have that**  **19 situation, does the unique model number you 20 provided, does it include the core of your**  **21 basic model, the ABC? 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 103**  **1 MR. STANONIK: It does? So the 2 example --**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, I thought you 4 were saying it was something entirely**  **5 different. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: No.**  **7 MR. STANONIK: Your example is a 8 little misleading --**  **9 MS. HOOTMAN: ABC is the -- 10 MR. STANONIK: In her case, it**  **11 would still retain the basic model 12 designation, the core of the designation.**  **13 Well, no, it didn't start with it. It started 14 with the Barhydt because that's what the**  **15 customer wanted. But still within there is 16 those, in this case, those three magic letters**  **17 that say this is, in fact, a basic model ABC, 18 right? In your situation.**  **19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, BarhydtABC that 20 you just put up there is the same basic**  **21 refrigeration as the basic model. In fact, it 22 might even be exactly the same, but, Laura,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 104**  

### 1 you were very particular and you wanted your **2 name on it in the model number. 3 MR. STANONIK: But when you did**  **4 that, your model numbers still have those 5 three magic letters, right?**  **6 MS. HOOTMAN: What's that? 7 MR. STANONIK: But when you did**  **8 it, that model number would still have those 9 key three letters, they would just be out of**  **10 sequence. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: No, nope, it would**  **12 not have those letters at all. 13 MR. STANONIK: Pardon me?**  **14 MS. HOOTMAN: It would not have 15 ABC at all.**  **16 MR. STANONIK: I asked you the 17 first time --**  **18 MS. MEYERS: I mean, it may be 19 tied together in my system, Frank, but it may**  **20 not be what's printed on -- 21 MR. STANONIK: Okay. So it**  **22 wouldn't be on the label. All right.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 105**  **1 MS. MEYERS: It could, but it may 2 not.**  **3 MR. STANONIK: It may not, okay. 4 MR. WHITWELL: It depends on what**  **5 the customer asks for. 6 MR. STANONIK: All right, okay. I** 
**7 was -- 8 MS. MEYERS: I would be able to**  **9 link Barhydt123 back to a number in my system. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Think of almost**  **11 Barhydt123 as it's a green unit and the rest 12 of the units are purple. And everything else**  **13 about it is the same, but there is no 14 distinguishing factor, except that Barhydt123**  **15 is now green. 16 MR. STARR: How many of these**  **17 units are Barhydt, percentage wise, how many 18 of these are Barhydt123's? Are we talking,**  **19 like, five percent, three percent? I mean, 20 maybe it's such a small percentage it doesn't**  **21 really. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, I mean, it may** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 106**  **1 be one customer in a million, but, I mean, 2 we've got a significant marketplace, right?**  **3 A billion marketplace here that we're talking 4 about, so.**  **5 MR. FLY: Yes, this is Mark Fly. 6 Jill, you had to go add that to your UL**  **7 listing report on the safety side, though? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.**  **9 MR. FLY: And you had to, I'll 10 call you and I'll say, hey, I'm adding**  **11 Barhydt123 to this listing report in this 12 group of products and it's built just the same**  **13 so you don't have to come out and visit me 14 again.**  **15 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 16 MR. FLY: So that's the way we're**  **17 handling it today on the safety side of the 18 house.**  **19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, but realize 20 that safety and the energy aren't always**  **21 linked. 22 MR. FLY: Or done the same way.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 107**  **1 MS. HOOTMAN: Or done the same 2 way.**  **3 MR. EISNER: So do we have general 4 consensus on whatever it is we've agreed to?**  **5 MR. STARR: It does seem like it's 6 a small, perhaps a small percentage of the**  **7 market, and it would be preferable to have it 8 where you could actually identify something on**  **9 the equipment, but as long as you can link a 10 submittal to a piece of equipment on the roof,**  **11 and it sounds like you can, then, in theory, 12 you have ways to check things. I guess it**  **13 does depend on what shows up on these 14 Barhydt123 submittals, but as long as it's the**  **15 performance that's required, efficiency 16 performance and some of those things, and I**  **17 think that has to be on the submittal, right? 18 I mean, do they know that the, I mean, the**  **19 SEER rating, I mean, how does a code official 20 or an engineer know that the SEER rating is**  **21 the EER rating? 22 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't know of a** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 108**  **1 case right now, but let's put it this way: if 2 Laura came in and said I don't want energy**  **3 efficiency on my submittal, I'd probably 4 customize her submittal and I wouldn't show**  **5 her energy efficiency in her submittal. I 6 generate a submittal for each customer so --**  **7 MR. STARR: Okay. How does a code 8 official ensure that the EER rating for a**  **9 piece of equipment is correct? Just say I'm 10 a code official and I'm coming to your**  **11 building -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, that, I mean,**  **13 that would be up to that customer to have 14 those discussions or do something. It is**  **15 their responsibility to have -- 16 MR. AMRANE: They will ask for it.**  **17 MR. STARR: They will ask for it. 18 I mean --**  **19 MR. AMRANE: They have to show it 20 to the code official.**  **21 MR. STARR: They have to do it 22 every time. It's part of the energy code.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 109**  **1 So, I mean, you don't -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: I understand that,**  **3 Louis. What I'm saying is I don't have any 4 problem, as a manufacturer, if that customer**  **5 wants to deal with his installation, his code, 6 his certification, etcetera. I don't have any**  **7 problem, as a manufacturer, saying, yes, I'll 8 make it and I'll give you a submittal and it**  **9 won't have that information on it. It's not, 10 it's their responsibility. I sold it to them.**  **11 They are the ones who are going to have to 12 pull the permit, deal with the code official,**  **13 etcetera. It's not my job to deal with that. 14 MR. STARR: So we have to rely on**  **15 them complying with the code to make sure the 16 right information is on the submittal in order**  **17 for it. Okay. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not saying it's**  **19 a wise thing, but I'm not going to say I'm not 20 going to do it.**  **21 MR. STARR: I think it will take 22 care of itself.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 110**  **1 MR. EISNER: Does this bring us 2 back to the prior slide? Okay. We're back to**  **3 this. Let's see if we can get resolution to 4 this so we can take a break. I'm not going to**  **5 let you go until we have resolution. Where 6 are we on this, people? Yes?**  **7 MR. NESHAN: I just need to make a 8 comment. Where you put that at more than**  **9 three months during a one-year period? 10 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So I changed**  **11 the words, so everybody should sit and read 12 this because there are actually multiple**  **13 options on here. 14 MR. NESHAN: The only problem is**  **15 you're assuming we would be able to engineer, 16 build it, test it in a three-month period.**  **17 That's not practical. I mean, it just takes 18 a whole lot longer --**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: No, that's not what 20 that's saying.**  **21 MR. NESHAN: No, not saying, but, 22 you know, when we started, we take an order,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 111**  **1 and, in that three-month period, we design and 2 we get additional orders.**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: No. What I'm saying 4 is that in a 12-month period, if you got**  **5 orders in three separate months, it takes it 6 out of engineer to order. I was trying to**  **7 deal with the concern that some people file 12 8 orders on one day for the same thing. I was**  **9 trying to say that, if you're continuously, 10 over a period of time, on three separate,**  **11 unique, separated by a month instances, at 12 that point it's not engineer to order.**  **13 MR. NESHAN: Yes, that's what I'm, 14 yes, that's what I'm referring to. First one,**  **15 I get an order and I start working on it. It 16 might take me 14 or 15 weeks before I can**  **17 finalize it. In the meantime, the following 18 month I did another order and I still haven't**  **19 finished my design. And I do get three or 20 four orders before even the equipment is**  **21 designed, and then it doesn't -- you see? 22 MS. BARHYDT: I do.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 112**  **1 MR. STANONIK: How are they 2 ordering the same thing?**  **3 MR. NESHAN: Good question. 4 Because they said they want to try it here,**  **5 and then they say could you do another one 6 because we want to try it here, too. And**  **7 then, you know, but this doesn't come all at 8 one time and you are still designing because,**  **9 again, keep in mind we are small manufacturer. 10 We don't fabricate everything ourselves. We**  **11 have to do part drawings, send it to outside 12 people. They have to do their thing. This**  **13 takes six, seven, eight months sometimes to 14 design.**  **15 MR. EISNER: It's all the same 16 purchaser, though?**  **17 MR. NESHAN: No, no, it comes in 18 different --**  **19 MR. EISNER: Multiple purchasers 20 asking for exactly the same --**  **21 MR. NESHAN: Yes, for multiple 22 installation. They want to give it a try to** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 113**  **1 see how it works in north, south, west, and 2 then so on.**  **3 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman 4 from National. I'm going to go back again and**  **5 say that any, you know -- I'm glad Laura, you 6 know, puts trust in the fact that we can track**  **7 how many orders. I mean, to me, this is worse 8 than trying to track three orders in a year.**  **9 Now I've got, from an engineering side, I've 10 got orders three months in a row and now I've**  **11 got to go back. I just don't see the value in 12 putting any kind of a target on it, aside from**  **13 having units for ship. Maybe that's different 14 for CRE and HVAC, but the impact on the nation**  **15 and the impact on the products is on how many 16 units that were made or are out there.**  **17 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, 18 Mitsubishi. Okay. So, you know, an engineer**  **19 to order could be like a national account's 20 unit. And, you know, if it's a national**  **21 account unit -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: So you say that,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 114**  **1 you've been saying that a lot, and I have an 2 idea of what that means, but if you could just**  **3 explain just to make sure. 4 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. Say, like, a**  **5 Hardee's restaurant, which they put in, you 6 know, a lot, or a Waffle House, something like**  **7 that. They have specific units required for 8 their operations. So that's not a model**  **9 that's listed anywhere. It's not available 10 for sale to anyone, but it's an engineer to**  **11 order for that particular job. 12 So there's going to be multiples**  **13 of those, you know, but it's just slightly 14 different from, it's --**  **15 MS. BARHYDT: So you design it 16 once for Hardee's, but then you're selling it**  **17 to Hardee's over and over and over and over 18 and over. To me, that's not engineer to order**  **19 anymore. 20 MR. BAUMAN: You can't do that for**  **21 more than two years. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: I agree, I agree.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 115**  **1 MR. BAUMAN: If you're doing it 2 for more than two years, Jill is going to**  **3 decide either she's going to tell Laura she 4 can't keep her exclusive 123 anymore or she is**  **5 going to have to publically list that 6 information as a built to order product. I**  **7 think that's -- timing-wise, it actually gives 8 you some kind of a cutoff to keep doing the**  **9 same thing over and over again. 10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,**  **11 PVI. There's another aspect of this last one, 12 the two years. There's another aspect of the**  **13 last one that says two years that is 14 attractive, and that is it can be automated on**  **15 the DOE website. Something has to change or 16 it comes off. You could actually enter it in.**  **17 If you enter it in as an engineer to order 18 product, it extinguishes after two years. If**  **19 you have, you either have to change it or it's 20 going to self-remove. So there's no tracking**  **21 that's required. It addresses all these 22 variations from industry to industry. We're** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 116**  **1 talking about the engineer to order, so it's 2 not a massive amount. It seems like a good**  **3 solution. 4 MR. AMRANE: Then after two years,**  **5 I've come up with, I change the model number 6 and I reenter it as a different model number**  **7 but it's the same kind of unit, I mean, we 8 need to -- I'm not sure whether this would**  **9 work because you can't come back later on and 10 keep entering that unit -**  **11 MR. BAUMAN: And you have to 12 resubmit it for safety or because your model**  **13 number, too, is going to be tied in, you're 14 going to have work to do on that side. If you**  **15 want to make that really a different model 16 number and have different agency listings and**  **17 resubmittal, yes, people could do that. And, 18 again, nothing is perfect. It's a matter of**  **19 how much pain Jill is going to have to go 20 through on that versus saying I'm going to**  **21 make a basic model or I'm going to have to 22 redo. Laura, you're going to get a bill from** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 117**  **1 me in two years because I'm going to have to 2 go through this all over again if you want to**  **3 keep this confidential. 4 MS. BARHYDT: So just to take one**  **5 step backwards, just because Paul and Jill, I 6 think, had a difference of opinion, and I want**  **7 to make sure that that discussion is captured. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: So, yes, he's**  **9 saying, okay, that Hardee's, it was engineer 10 to order to begin with, and now I'm making it**  **11 consistently every single time for Hardee's 12 and it's probably above 250 units a year now**  **13 or whatever. I'm going to make that now in my 14 configure to order. It might be that**  **15 Barhydt123, it might very much be like 16 another, you know, basic model that we have**  **17 listed as ABC. And I'll make it -- 18 MR. DOPPEL: But if it's a Hardee,**  **19 it's a Hardee123. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a Hardee123.**  **21 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not engineered** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 118**  **1 anymore. I put it in my configure to order. 2 If it got up to that kind of volume, I put it**  **3 in configure to order. 4 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. And you would**  **5 have to enter that on the directory? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: It's the same as**  **7 basic model ABC. It's now in my individual 8 model numbers. I did my basic model ABC.**  **9 MR. DOPPEL: But you have to put 10 the Hardee one -- is that what you're saying,**  **11 you have to enter Hardee123 -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: The Hardee, da, da,**  **13 da, is now the same as basic model ABC. 14 MR. FLY: But if you're building**  **15 it periodically, year after year, then I think 16 it's a configure-to-order product.**  **17 MS. HOOTMAN: Believe me, in order 18 to track it and keep up with it, I'm not, I'm**  **19 not engineering every one of those at some 20 kind of volume. It's too hard. If the**  **21 individual model number -- he said are you 22 revealing my national account? No. If the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 119**  **1 individual model number, Barhydt123, is not 2 shown on the website, I am not. Hardee**  **3 whatever is not on the website. 4 MR. EISNER: People are getting**  **5 desperate for a break. I'm going to 6 compromise and give in. Why don't we take ten**  **7 minutes? Come back at 25 of. 8 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **9 matter went off the record at 10:25 a.m. and 10 resumed at 10:40 a.m.)**  **11 MR. EISNER: Okay. Everybody is 12 not in their seat. We are going to begin**  **13 talking anyway about what's up on the screen 14 here, basic models.**  **15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So let's say 16 we have basic model ABC, and basic model ABC**  **17 contains four individual models: ABC123, which 18 is configure to order; ABC124, which is a**  **19 stock item; JillABC is engineered to order, 20 and Barhydt124 is identical to ABC124. And I**  **21 think we've covered all the various scenarios, 22 but I'm not positive.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 120**  **1 Basic model ABC is not engineer to 2 order. Does everyone agree with that premise?**  **3 So the only time that basic model ABC is 4 engineer to order is if the only model within**  **5 there or all the models within there are 6 engineer to order. General agreement with**  **7 that premise? Okay. 8 Okay. So I think the issue is**  **9 what do I report? So I say my back model is 10 ABC. The way it has been, you would say**  **11 something like that. I think what I'm hearing 12 is that people would like to --**  **13 MR. BALLO: Well, not all of us 14 would like it.**  **15 MS. BARHYDT: There's some 16 agreement that this might be a compromise**  **17 position to do something like this. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: And the compromise**  **19 is because what would be shown publically and 20 what would not. So custom would not; is that**  **21 -- okay. 22 MR. FLY: I think custom is a poor** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 121**  **1 choice of word because it gets too much into 2 engineer to order.**  **3 MR. WHITWELL: So, specifically, I 4 mean, okay, so ABC** *, in this case, could be** **5 12*, right? And then you're saying that the** **6 engineer to order is available, would be 7 public. So engineer to order models would be**  **8 public, even though somebody cannot call us** **9 and say I want one of those *ABC models.** **10 MR. FLY: Enter JillABC. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, okay.**  **12 MS. BARHYDT: Does that satisfy 13 everyone?**  **14 MR. STARR: This is Lou Starr with 15 NEEA. Can I just list all my models as**  **16 Barhydt124? I mean, even if they aren't 17 private models?**  **18 MR. BALLO: You can't put it in 19 your literature then.**  **20 MR. STARR: Oh, okay. 21 MR. BALLO: That's the**  **22 distinction. But --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 122**  **1 MR. FLY: So is JillABC under the 2 same basic model as ABC?**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So the premise 4 is that all four of these models are in this**  **5 basic model, and this is the way you would 6 certify them. And you could do that. You**  **7 could do that. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. But, still,**  **9 where would JillABC, can it be under 10 individual model?**  **11 MR. WHITWELL: No, it's the -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: So that's this.**  **13 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. She didn't 14 have it over there originally.**  **15 MS. HOOTMAN: AR. Sorry. I mean, I have 16 seen that.**  **17 MR. FLY: So what made JillABC engineer 18 to order?**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, so these were 20 just some initial assumptions and premises,**  **21 just so that we'd have some very, a variety of 22 examples to work with.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 123**  **1 MR. FLY: So you're saying that 2 you might have an engineer to order product,**  **3 which happened to fall into a basic model 4 because it didn't have any different rating**  **5 than the basic model that it was derived from. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.**  **7 MR. AMRANE: How do you know it's 8 engineer to order? It would have other**  **9 columns that say engineer to order? 10 MS. BARHYDT: Why does it matter?**  **11 MR. AMRANE: Well, because -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: I'm willing to test**  **13 basic model ABC, and it is not engineer to 14 order. So what am I going to do? I'm going**  **15 to grab an ABC124 -- 16 MR. AMRANE: As long as you know**  **17 that -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.**  **19 MR. AMRANE: -- the basic model, 20 not the engineer to order.**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: We're checking the 22 basic model.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 124**  **1 MR. EISNER: The ABC with three 2 asterisks covers 123 and 124?**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: ABC covers all four 4 of those: ABC123, ABC124, JillABC, and**  **5 Barhydt124. 6 MR. FLY: But the listing for**  **7 ABC*** covers 123 and 124. 8 MR. EISNER: But all the public**  **9 sees is ABC with three asterisks. 10 MR. STANONIK: Well, the public**  **11 looked at a unit, right, a unit of that model, 12 they would be, they would see ABC in all**  **13 cases. Those last three symbols, numbers 14 might be something different. It could be**  **15 123, it could be 124, it could be 698. But 16 they're all the ABC model. You would have an**  **17 asterisk for every place where you have -- an 18 individual rating plate, on an individual**  **19 rating plate there would be something in that 20 asterisk space.**  **21 MR. EISNER: But it would be 22 listed on DOE's website would be simply ABC** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 125**  **1 and three asterisks, and separately provided 2 to DOE would be the ones that are in the last**  **3 column, but they wouldn't be made public. 4 MR. HON: Unless they were**  **5 requested under the Freedom of Information 6 Act, right?**  **7 MS. BARHYDT: Then the 8 manufacturer is going to have to establish why**  **9 that is confidential business information, 10 which if you have a contract with a party that**  **11 says that that is confidential business 12 information.**  **13 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers 14 with PVI. Could we add to that that if, could**  **15 we add to that if a manufacturer chooses to 16 put the basic model, identify the basic model**  **17 on their appliance, that all they would have 18 to have is just the basic model listing in the**  **19 DOE directory? You wouldn't have to do the 20 individual or the private model if we put the**  **21 basic model on the label of the appliance. 22 MR. FLY: And in the literature.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 126**  **1 MR. MYERS: And in literature, 2 absolutely, and anywhere we're selling it that**  **3 you can identify the performance based on the 4 basic model, which would be in the DOE**  **5 directory. 6 MR. BALLO: And that would be**  **7 added to the model number that's there? 8 MR. MYERS: It would be, you'd**  **9 have -- yes. It might not be in the same 10 block, but let's say adjacent where we would**  **11 say basic model number. And then if we put 12 Barhydt123, it doesn't show up anywhere on**  **13 this site, but you do see the basic model 14 number. And the product literature.**  **15 MS. HOOTMAN: But that's not a 16 requirement.**  **17 MR. MYERS: Right. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Got it.**  **19 MR. STANONIK: Laura, on the last 20 piece that Frank Myers was talking about, I**  **21 think, to be totally clear, it should say if 22 basic model is displayed on each unit, in** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 127**  **1 addition to the individual model number, 2 because the individual model number, in most**  **3 cases, is always going to have the basic model 4 number. It's going to have all the other**  **5 embellishments, right? 6 MS. BARHYDT: I think I remember**  **7 from Frank's discussion of his scheme way back 8 when was that you don't have all of your**  **9 individual model numbers because they're, 10 like, five zillion digits long.**  **11 MR. MYERS: Not in the directory, 12 but when we advertise we might have Jill123**  **13 and ABC124. But beside that, we would say, in 14 this case, basic model number where we are**  **15 actually doing -- go to our website and, on 16 some of our products, you'll see CEC model**  **17 number, which is where I'm getting this from. 18 But all these basic models, beside it will be**  **19 the specific CEC number that the efficiencies 20 went to.**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: So I'm assuming 22 you're going to use that CEC number as your** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 128**  **1 basic model for DOE. If you've already 2 assigned all those and they're already**  **3 assigned efficiencies. 4 MR. MYERS: Exactly. That's the**  **5 number that I would use, and then it would be 6 probably I'd have to change my decal to say**  **7 CEC/basic model number, and then have the same 8 thing.**  **9 MR. STANONIK: But doesn't -- 10 Frank Stanonik, AHRI. But doesn't the**  **11 individual model number of every one of those 12 units include the sequence that is captured by**  **13 the basic model? 14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,**  **15 PVI. It doesn't have to. I could call it 16 chocolate. If that took care of our internal**  **17 system and the customer system, it could be 18 Barhydt, not 123, just Barhydt, if that was**  **19 okay with the customer and okay with us. You 20 would know the performance because it had the**  **21 basic model number. 22 MR. BALLO: I think we need a** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 129**  **1 definition for private model. 2 MS. MEYERS: So, Laura, you're**  **3 saying I have to put the basic model on my 4 unit?**  **5 MS. BARHYDT: No, no. If basic 6 model number is displayed on each unit and**  **7 product literature, you do not have to provide 8 individual model number in your certification.**  **9 It's a choice. Because the norm is that you 10 provide your individual model number and your**  **11 certification, and so, for those who think it 12 would be easier for them to just put it on a**  **13 label on the product so that there's an easy 14 time between products to certifications, then**  **15 there's no need for an individual model 16 number. Because that's the primary reason we**  **17 want the individual model numbers is so that 18 we can tie units to certifications.**  **19 MR. FLY: Can the basic model 20 number -- this is Mark Fly with AAON. Could**  **21 the basic model number have the asterisks in 22 it?** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 130**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: It can. 2 MR. FLY: The ABC** *?** **3 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 4 MR. FLY: Well, in that case, do I**  **5 need to have my individual model numbers be 6 the same?**  **7 MS. BARHYDT: So I think what 8 you're asking is, can I do this.**  **9 MR. FLY: Not that. As long as my, 10 every model I make that says ABC followed by**  **11 three nondescript letters falls within the ABC 12 basic model.**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: And in your 14 scenario, you do or don't have weird other**  **15 scenarios like that? 16 MR. FLY: You could or could not.**  **17 MR. STANONIK: Customer responsive 18 scenarios.**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: Customer responsive 20 scenarios. I think, if you have something**  **21 over in that private model section, I think 22 you're going to have to put something in the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 131**  **1 individual model section. 2 MR. FLY: Even if it's the same**  **3 thing as the basic -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.**  **5 MR. FLY: Okay. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Because, otherwise,**  **7 to me, this looks like the only thing you've 8 got out there are --**  **9 MR. FLY: I'm hiding. Okay. Just 10 trying to ask all the questions.**  **11 MS. BARHYDT: No, that's good. 12 MS. MEYERS: So I'm building a**  **13 water heater for Sam's. It's a Sam's model 14 number. So by looking at the DOE website,**  **15 everyone is going to be able to know that I 16 have a contract with Sam's.**  **17 MS. HOOTMAN: No. Put it under 18 private model, and you would have your basic**  **19 model on the public and the individual model 20 on the public, but you would not have the**  **21 product model Sam's at all. 22 MR. FLY: Nobody could find the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 132**  **1 Sam's on the DOE website. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.**  **3 MR. WHITWELL: But if we think 4 back to the earlier discussion that we had**  **5 about what goes in the certification, there 6 was the manufacturer and there was brand. So**  **7 I think, in this case, you're thinking that 8 the brand is Sam's. And that was public, the**  **9 brand was public. So if the basic model is 10 public, then for Rheem and Sam's, and it's the**  **11 same, then it's not private anymore, I guess 12 is what I'm saying.**  **13 MR. STANONIK: But I didn't 14 understand Jill's example to be a private**  **15 brand model. A private brand model -- 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Mine wasn't. Mine**  **17 was not. 18 MR. STANONIK: Right. And so --**  **19 MS. HOOTMAN: Gary is bringing up 20 a different --**  **21 MR. STANONIK: He is, a different 22 situation. A private brand model could be** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 133**  **1 listed under that brand, no? I mean, when you 2 report to DOE, you're going to have to certify**  **3 the efficiency of that private brand model 4 because, in fact, you are certifying, but it**  **5 could be listed as the private brand or show 6 up as the private brand. That's been the**  **7 practice forever. 8 MR. WHITWELL: But it could have**  **9 the same basic model designation for the 10 private-branded product as the manufacturer's**  **11 brand. And so if the basic model is public 12 and you see two products, one private-branded**  **13 product and one manufacturer-branded product 14 with the same basic model, you might as well**  **15 put manufacturer and brand on there because 16 it's obvious, right? So --**  **17 MS. BARHYDT: Maybe, maybe not. I 18 mean, I'll say that there are people doing**  **19 that right now, and there's so many 20 certifications that it's not always abundantly**  **21 clear. 22 MR. WHITWELL: It depends on how** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 134**  **1 unique a model -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: It does. It does,**  **3 yes. 4 MS. MEYERS: I think it would be**  **5 pretty abundantly clear. 6 MR. WHITWELL: There are some, I**  **7 mean -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: All of yours start**  **9 with CAR or something. I mean, it's that kind 10 of thing where it would just be --**  **11 MS. MEYERS: Yes, so, you know, 12 then it's very easy to -- and it's a pretty**  **13 small industry, so now everyone knows, you 14 know, Rheem won a contract with Sam's. Well,**  **15 we've got a lot of other competitors, so guess 16 what they're going to do? They're going to,**  **17 you know, because it's very clear, it's very 18 evident from the DOE website and being able to**  **19 look at those model numbers. 20 MR. STANONIK: In the case of a**  **21 private brander, let me call it a classical 22 private brander, the addition of this DOE** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 135**  **1 database is not, in any way, going to change, 2 I think, anyone's ability to figure out who's**  **3 making that private brand. 4 MS. MEYERS: Well, this is not how** 
**5 -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: It will be public.**  **7 You'll be able to figure it out. 8 MR. STANONIK: I'm saying you can**  **9 figure it out now. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: No, in the AHRI**  **11 database -- 12 MR. STANONIK: For a lot of years**  **13 you can. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So use the**  **15 same situation with a commercial air 16 conditioner. You can't.**  **17 MS. HOOTMAN: You can't. 18 MR. STANONIK: But would they have**  **19 the same, the same ABC somewhere in their 20 model numbers?**  **21 MR. WHITWELL: No, because you'd 22 want to hide it.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 136**  **1 MR. STANONIK: I mean, the issue 2 is, so, let's say, in the same example, that**  **3 she's building a rooftop unit for Sam's and 4 Sam's is selling rooftop units, okay? So part**  **5 of the submission includes manufacturer, 6 brand, and then this stuff, right? So it**  **7 would say Rheem, and she's selling the product 8 under Rheem, so it would have the Rheem brand.**  **9 And then it would have the basic model, 10 ABC** *, and then the Rheem model number. And** **11 then there also would be in there manufacturer 12 Rheem, brand Sam's, basic model. It's going**  **13 to be the same basic model. If it's based on 14 the same basic model, it's going to be the**  **15 same basic model with a unique Sam's model 16 number.**  **17 And so the manufacturer is hidden, 18 but you can just see, you can see basic model,**  **19 ABC with three asterisks, Rheem, and a model 20 number, ABC, three asterisks, Sam's, and a**  **21 different model number. Those are the same 22 product, so it's clear if you trace it back to** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 137**  **1 the manufacturer. 2 MR. FLY: The only way to hide it**  **3 would be to create a different model for 4 Sam's, a basic model --**  **5 MR. WHITWELL: A different basic 6 model, which is an additional --**  **7 MS. MEYERS: Certification, 8 testing, verification.**  **9 MR. FLY: Yes. Verification. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a different**  **11 basic model on the line. That means that it 12 would be subject to verification testing, just**  **13 like the other basic model. So now you have 14 two basic model lines on it, and they both are**  **15 subject to verification. So now it is 16 increasing your verification.**  **17 MS. BARHYDT: But it's all based 18 on basic model groups anyway. So it's not**  **19 based on basic model -- 20 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. But you'd**  **21 have to create a different basic model group 22 in order, if you don't want to disclose the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 138**  **1 manufacturer and brand relationship. So let's 2 say, in an extreme case, a manufacturer has a**  **3 product line where everything that they put 4 under their brand they also have under a, they**  **5 sell to someone else that's under another 6 brand. It's doubling the number of basic**  **7 models that they have. It's going to double 8 all of their entry paperwork and all of their**  **9 expenses related to tests. 10 MS. MEYERS: Why does basic model**  **11 have to be public? Aren't you really just 12 concerned about the individual model?**  **13 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik. 14 I'm sorry. We're overthinking this. How could**  **15 you have a basic model that you're not 16 selling?**  **17 MS. BARHYDT: It's the identifier. 18 MR. WHITWELL: The basic model,**  **19 people don't see the basic model. I mean, the 20 customer doesn't know what the basic model is.**  **21 It's just describing something for the sake of 22 listing with DOE.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 139**  **1 MR. FLY: Now you just really 2 screwed up Frank's deal.**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: I know. I was 4 thinking how we were going to deal with that.**  **5 MR. KLEISS: As an example, my 6 basic model is the nine-footer and it's**  **7 available in multiple different sizes, but 8 they all share the same energy efficiency**  **9 description. 10 MS. DANE: Is this option an**  **11 either/or or as an and or in place of -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: Under the current**  **13 regulations, and actually, what we voted on 14 previously, it was both.**  **15 MS. DANE: So we don't have to 16 choose this if we don't want?**  **17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So under the 18 current regulations, you are required to**  **19 submit basic model and individual model and 20 both pieces of information are public. So I'm**  **21 not sure what you mean by you don't have -- 22 MS. DANE: Well, when we started** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 140**  

### 1 talking about this, this was an option. And **2 I didn't know if this is an option -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: This one down here**  **4 is an option. 5 MS. DANE: Yes, is an option to**  **6 replace or we can choose either method A or 7 method B?**  **8 MS. BARHYDT: So the default is 9 you report basic model and individual model.**  **10 The option, which is -- 11 MS. DANE: So it's either A or B?**  **12 MS. BARHYDT: This bullet point, 13 that's the option.**  **14 MS. DANE: So if they don't like 15 that, they don't have to choose that. They**  **16 can do it the way they were doing it? 17 MS. BARHYDT: But they're saying**  **18 that the problem is with the default being 19 basic model is public because what we**  **20 discussed previously was that, and they have 21 a problem with that.**  **22 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 141**  **1 with PVI. Would a solution be that the basic 2 model number for private branding is not**  **3 required, is not public? So DOE would have 4 it. They could tell. When they're selecting**  **5 products for verification, they could tell. 6 It wouldn't double the number because they**  **7 would have that information, yet it wouldn't 8 be public.**  **9 MR. BALLO: Okay. So what I care 10 about is being able to identify that a product**  **11 has been certified to DOE. If I see the 12 individual model and the individual model is**  **13 in the database, that's fine. I guess this 14 creates the problem, though, is if a**  **15 manufacturer chooses Frank's preferred option 16 of marking the basic model in his literature**  **17 and on the product and then the basic model is 18 not available in the database. Then I can't**  **19 determine if that product has been certified. 20 So I guess, if the optional approach is**  **21 limited to basic model up here in the 22 database, then I guess this is addressing --** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 142**  **1 MR. WHITWELL: So what if -- well, 2 what I was going to say, I'm not sure this**  **3 works, but what if Frank were to put the basic 4 model number in both basic model and**  **5 individual model column? Would that work? 6 MR. MYERS: As I sit here, I can't**  **7 think of a reason that wouldn't work because 8 it would show up that -- the only complexity**  **9 would be what I had proposed earlier and 10 what's here is we would identify on this**  **11 optional listing on my advertising literature 12 and on my product decal basic model, yet if**  **13 you look here, you wouldn't see the word basic 14 model. You'd see individual model.**  **15 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. 16 How would anyone find Barhydt124?**  **17 MS. BARHYDT: They wouldn't. The 18 public would not because that is a custom**  **19 number that only one person even knows about. 20 MR. HON: Okay.**  **21 MR. EISNER: One person and the 22 DOE.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 143**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: And DOE. 2 MR. FLY: So if someone sent you**  **3 and said it's Barhydt 124, how would you 4 respond? How would you deal with it?**  **5 MS. BARHYDT: He's okay with that. 6 MR. BALLO: I'm never going to**  **7 find out about it. 8 (Laughter.)**  **9 MR. BALLO: Comfort is not a word 10 I would use.**  **11 MR. MYERS: An acceptable level of 12 discomfort. This is Frank Myers, PVI. Could**  **13 we have it, if you chose that option, that the 14 basic model would show for those models that**  **15 you chose that option? 16 MS. BARHYDT: So I guess what I'm**  **17 thinking is that the whole idea behind 18 individual model number is that it is the**  **19 model number displayed on the unit. And in 20 your case, that is a number displayed on the**  **21 unit. So there's really no disconnect at all 22 between you simply providing that in the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 144**  **1 individual model number field. 2 MR. MYERS: I might be able to do**  **3 it the same way I do with CEC and just say 4 CEC/DOE. That's where I would put the**  **5 individual model number that didn't show up 6 here.**  **7 MS. BARHYDT: Whatever that is, 8 yes.**  **9 MR. MYERS: Yes, that would work. 10 MS. BARHYDT: So what do folks**  **11 think? 12 MR. MYERS: So if I chose that**  **13 option and I had 20 individual model numbers 14 that were based on my basic model, but what I**  **15 put in the individual model number was my 16 basic model number, I would just have one**  **17 because that number shows up on every product, 18 every one of those products.**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 20 MR. MYERS: Okay.**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: The key to the 22 individual model number is that it's a model** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 145**  **1 number that is displayed to the public and 2 that DOE can tie back to your certification.**  **3 MR. MYERS: From DOE's point of 4 view, that is an individual model.**  **5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, exactly. 6 MR. KLEISS: There was a comment**  **7 or question that Timothy made that I'm just a 8 little bit turned around on. He said, how do**  **9 I know if a product that I find on the 10 directory is certified? Is that correct?**  **11 MR. BALLO: No. How do I know 12 that a product I see out in the world**  **13 available for sale has been certified is my 14 concern.**  **15 MR. KLEISS: Okay, okay. Because 16 if it is on the directory, it is certified.**  **17 Okay. 18 MR. HASEMAN: This is Randy from**  **19 UL. This whole discussion started with 20 engineer to order and verification and kind of**  **21 morphed into whole model number, and I'm not 22 sure this helps the whole engineer to order** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 146**  **1 verification, you know, verification bodies 2 picking or not picking engineer to order**  **3 products. How does that help? 4 MS. BARHYDT: So. And that was the**  **5 point I made when we first came back from 6 break is that, if you have a basic model likes**  **7 this that included models, some of which were 8 configure to order, some that were stock, some**  **9 were engineer to order, in that case, you 10 don't have a basic model that is engineer to**  **11 order because one of the discussions had been 12 the possibility of basic models that were**  **13 engineer to order were not subject to 14 verification.**  **15 And so in a case like this, this 16 basic model would be subject to verification**  **17 testing. And my expectation would be that it 18 would, the model that would be selected for**  **19 verification would probably be that stock unit 20 because that's what's already in stock and**  **21 it's already available for testing. 22 MR. HASEMAN: What if the basic** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 147**  **1 model is engineer to order? 2 MS. BARHYDT: If the entire basis**  **3 model is engineer to order, that's a whole 4 different discussion that we haven't even**  **5 gotten into yet. 6 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with**  **7 AHRI. How would you know that unit that you 8 want to test is engineered? I mean, unless**  **9 you have something and I guess you would know 10 at DOE, so the manufacturer would have**  **11 identified, I think, within the basic model 12 that unit is not --**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: If I go out and I 14 find one in the store, then it's not**  **15 engineered to order. I guess what I'm not 16 understanding is --**  **17 MR. AMRANE: It's a verification 18 program. I mean, you do verification program**  **19 -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Verification**  **21 program, we're going to say we've selected 22 basic model ABC. We're not going to say we've** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 148**  **1 selected model Barhydt124. We're going to say 2 basic model, this basic model has been**  **3 selected for verification. 4 MR. AMRANE: But you would know**  **5 that. 6 MR. FLY: If it's truly a one-off,**  **7 I'd think you could identify engineer to order 8 in the database.**  **9 MR. AMRANE: That's what I'm 10 asking.**  **11 MR. FLY: Whatever rule we decide 12 at the end of the day is the rule --**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: For individual model 14 and a basic model?**  **15 MR. FLY: No, for an individual 16 model that is unique. I mean, for an**  **17 engineered to order unit that is unique. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. We haven't**  **19 talked about that one yet. That's coming up. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So I think**  **21 the question is -- so now what's the question? 22 MR. FLY: Okay. This is Mark Fly** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 149**  **1 with AAON. I'm not sure why we even care if 2 it's engineer to order but falls within a**  **3 basic model. 4 MS. BARHYDT: So I put that up**  **5 there because there was some conversation that 6 was making me think that people thought that**  **7 if you had a model that was engineered to 8 order that made the basic model engineered to**  **9 order. And I wanted to make sure we were all 10 on the same page that just because one model**  **11 is, doesn't make the whole basic model 12 engineered --**  **13 MR. FLY: But you do have classes 14 that are engineer to order and the basic model**  **15 is engineer to order. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So that's my**  **17 new little -- 18 MR. FLY: It's the one-offs,**  **19 right? Basic model ETO. Okay. 20 MS. BARHYDT: So basic model ETO**  **21 and the individual model number we're going to 22 call it ETO123. So now what?** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 150**  **1 MR. WHITWELL: And there's no 2 configure to order and no stock models**  **3 available. 4 MS. BARHYDT: That's it.**  **5 MR. FLY: And it needs to be 6 identified in the database as engineer to**  **7 order if we're going to apply any rules or you 8 want to make sure that you're checking --**  **9 MS. BARHYDT: That I would agree 10 with, and that's a question for you all. We**  **11 have not resolved verification testing yet. 12 There are two options. We can, as the**  **13 certification package to send to ASRAC, go 14 ahead and say we want to have a required field**  **15 of information of whether or not the basic 16 model is engineer to order now or we could put**  **17 that in any future verification package and 18 say, now that we have verification testing and**  **19 a framework for that and a proposal, we think 20 we need to add to the certification**  **21 requirements an engineer to order indication. 22 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 151**  **1 AAON. If you're going to come out with a 2 rulemaking and you do not address engineer to**  **3 order in some fashion, I think you're just 4 going to generate tons of comments with the**  **5 engineer to order guys, if they're paying 6 attention at all.**  **7 MS. BARHYDT: If there's no 8 verification testing?**  **9 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it's the 10 certification piece of it.**  **11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Right?**  **13 MR. FLY: Right. Because you need 14 to --**  **15 MR. WHITWELL: What do they do, 16 right?**  **17 MR. FLY: What do they do? I've 18 built one; do I have to engineer it every**  **19 time? And she said yes. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.**  **21 MR. FLY: You know, so I just 22 think it needs to be addressed explicitly** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 152**  **1 rather than implicitly because implicitly 2 won't come across.**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 4 MR. FLY: And if we come up with a**  **5 different -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: You need a column**  **7 that says engineer to order; is that right? 8 Because --**  **9 MS. BARHYDT: That's what I'm 10 hearing.**  **11 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 12 Until their verification testing, what does**  **13 adding that information into the database, if 14 there's no verification testing, what does it**  **15 add? What's it used for? 16 MR. FLY: I think it makes it, it**  **17 explicitly states to those people not in the 18 room that engineer to order products need to**  **19 be certified. 20 MR. WHITWELL: And cannot be a 5**  **21 EER. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Based on the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 153**  **1 number of emails I get. I mean, literally, 2 based on the number of emails we get, like, at**  **3 least a dozen a week. 4 MR. MYERS: So there's no action**  **5 on it, but it does communicate to the engineer 6 to order side of the industry that they better**  **7 pay attention. They'd better read all the 8 rules because they're not excluded in the**  **9 chart. 10 MR. WHITWELL: There is action on**  **11 it. I mean, the action is they have to 12 certify what the efficiency levels are for**  **13 those products. 14 MR. MYERS: But you wouldn't have**  **15 to check a box in order to have that 16 requirement. Having a box there is really**  **17 only, is for in the future, but it 18 communicates that they have to do something**  **19 because you could have the requirement there 20 without having a box.**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, If I can go 22 back a slide or at least try to go back a** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 154**  **1 slide, so an engineer to order basic model is 2 a basic model that is not listed in any**  **3 catalogs or marketing literature and designed 4 and built to specifications provided by the**  **5 customer. And then we were trying to work out 6 some limitations on that to make sure that**  **7 something that is engineered to order but then 8 sold and sold and sold and sold is not, does**  **9 not continue as engineered to order. 10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,**  **11 PVI. I just want to clarify that built to 12 specifications provided by the customer, I**  **13 know a lot of ours, the customer provides us 14 a need and they're looking to us for a**  **15 solution. So we may actually provide the 16 specifications that are required to meet their**  **17 need. 18 MS. BARHYDT: But they still**  **19 provide you the specifications for it has to 20 fit this.**  **21 MR. HON: The danger factor is if 22 somebody comes to you and say I want to build,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 155**  **1 you know, ABC with all these components in it 2 and it's going to exceed the DOE's energy**  **3 level, then you have a problem as a 4 manufacturer. That's where you have to be**  **5 very cognizant because it still has to be 6 listed, and it still has to meet the standard.**  **7 And people tend to say, well, the customer 8 wanted it that way, I'm just doing a custom**  **9 manufacture for them. But as you're the 10 manufacturer, you're responsible.**  **11 MR. EISNER: The first paragraph, 12 maybe, can make that more clearly, but**  **13 engineered to order is one of the basic models 14 that has to be certified. You could say each**  **15 basic model, including engineered to order 16 products, must be certified prior to**  **17 distribution. 18 Does anybody have any problem with**  **19 the first paragraph now? The first sentence 20 in the second paragraph?**  **21 MR. SACHS: I have a problem with 22 -- this is Harvey, and I have a bit of a** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 156**  **1 problem with the second sentence. 2 MR. EISNER: The second sentence**  **3 in the first paragraph? 4 MR. SACHS: In the first**  **5 paragraph, whichever is first, since we have 6 -- either manufacturers or importers bringing**  **7 it in, and that would seem to be exclusive 8 classes. So I don't understand what whichever**  **9 is first means. 10 MS. BARHYDT: So the manufacturer**  **11 is an importer, and if the manufacturer is 12 importing a product, it has not yet cleared**  **13 customs, so to speak. But they have taken an 14 order, they've taken money, they've sold that**  **15 product. 16 MR. SACHS: So this would be the**  **17 case for -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: It needs to be**  **19 certified when they -- 20 MR. SACHS: -- HVAC manufacturers**  **21 here and imports. Okay. I missed that. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Well, manufacturer** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 157**  **1 is an importer and a builder. It is not just 2 the builder.**  **3 MR. SACHS: Thank you. I'm sorry. 4 I forgot that.**  **5 MR. EISNER: I think there was one 6 other hand on the first paragraph. Somebody**  **7 else have -- everybody is okay with the first 8 paragraph. What about the first sentence in**  **9 the second paragraph? 10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers.**  **11 I'm still concerned about the built to 12 specification provided by the customer. It**  **13 could work unique for a customer or something 14 like that.**  **15 MR. EISNER: Is that okay with 16 everybody, changing --**  **17 MR. WHITWELL: Requirements unique 18 to a customer.**  **19 MR. MYERS: Yes, something like 20 that.**  **21 MR. EISNER: Why do they have to 22 be unique if others can then start ordering** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 158**  **1 the product from you? 2 MR. MYERS: That works.**  **3 MR. EISNER: Okay. So everybody 4 is okay with the first sentence on the second**  **5 paragraph? Now we get to the hard part. 6 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with**  **7 Mitsubishi. I think I have a problem with 8 what Laura has just said about importers.**  **9 Okay. If there is a requirement on the 10 introduction of a product, that its**  **11 manufacture date, for an importer, it's the 12 imported date. So we have to do, take special**  **13 precautions to make sure things are in place 14 so we get our products in at the right time.**  **15 So that makes it difficult for us, 16 so now you're making it more difficult because**  **17 you're saying, we're saying, if we put it into 18 commerce, it's when it's imported. But you're**  **19 saying, no, it goes into commerce if you take 20 an order.**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: So there are two 22 different requirements. Standards are** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 159**  **1 applicable not on the date of distribution in 2 commerce. Standards are applicable on date of**  **3 manufacture. Date of manufacture is the date 4 of importation if it's imported. So that's**  **5 how that import date kicks in. It's date of 6 manufacture, not date of distribution in** 
**7 commerce. 8 The requirement to certify is that**  **9 it is certified prior to distribution in 10 commerce. And in this case, we're talking**  **11 about defining distribution in commerce as 12 when you offer it for sale, which it may or**  **13 may not be before you actually import the 14 product. It may or may not be before they**  **15 build the product. It's before they offer it 16 for sale.**  **17 MR. WHITWELL: So, actually, I'm 18 thinking that maybe we have to change this,**  **19 also, add something. Should it be 20 manufacturer either imports the product for**  **21 sale or the manufacturer -- because you could 22 be bringing in a prototype unit for** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 160**  

### 1 evaluation, and it's not for sale. **2 For example, my Toshiba carrier 3 joint venture company might send me something**  **4 that I'm going to be looking at in my lab. 5 We're not ready to sell it. We're doing**  **6 testing, maybe we're doing testing to 7 determine what the rating is going to be for**  **8 the DOE test procedure, for example. So it's 9 importing --**  **10 MS. BARHYDT: Because we have a 11 universal exclusion for prototypes that are**  **12 brought in for testing. That was in the 2011 13 rule.**  **14 MS. MEYERS: What if I brought in 15 ten of them and I evaluated them and**  **16 determined they were ready to go? Do I just 17 throw those ten away?**  **18 MS. BARHYDT: I hate that 19 scenario. At some point, you're making a**  **20 determination that you are switching from 21 these are here for tests and these are here**  **22 for sale, and they have to be certified prior**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 161**  **1 to that. You can't certify it if you have no 2 test data either, but you also can't be making**  **3 representations if you have no basis for that 4 either.**  **5 MR. EISNER: Is everybody okay 6 with the change that Laura's made?**  **7 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know if I'd 8 say change-making.**  **9 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with 10 AHRI. Something still doesn't quite fit**  **11 because if it's a domestically-manufactured 12 product, there is no option because you're not**  **13 importing anything. 14 So in that case, if you're**  **15 building it here, distribution in commerce is 16 the point of which you're first willing to**  **17 accept an order. So it's really not an option 18 available to everybody. I think it needs to**  **19 say distribution at the point in time at which 20 -- somehow you need to indicate, okay, the one**  **21 criteria fits imported products, the other 22 criteria fits domestically-produced products** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 162**  **1 or domestically-manufactured products. Right, 2 yes, I think you just need a separate basis.**  **3 MR. WHITWELL: Is manufacturer the 4 right word there, or is it seller or importer?**  **5 MS. BARHYDT: Under the statute, a 6 manufacturer is an importer.**  **7 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So it could 8 be, it could be just some distributor who's**  **9 bringing in a container load of product. 10 MR. DOPPEL: So a domestic**  **11 manufacturer could have a thousand in 12 inventory, and it's not a problem if they**  **13 haven't offered them for sale yet? 14 MS. BARHYDT: If they're sitting**  **15 in their warehouse and they're not offering 16 them for sale.**  **17 MR. DOPPEL: So that's a different 18 criteria than for manufacturers.**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: Because maybe 20 they're trying to decide whether or not to**  **21 ship them all out of the country. 22 MS. MEYERS: Let me see if I'm** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 163**  **1 right. So, conversely, an importer imports 2 them for tests, and there's a thousand -- wait**  **3 a minute -- there's a thousand of them. You 4 tested two of those, and now you've decided**  **5 that the rest of those thousand you want to 6 sell. You have to turn around and put those**  **7 in the database and then sell, right? 8 MR. DOPPEL: No, I'd be in jail**  **9 before I'd - 10 (Laughter.)**  **11 MS. MEYERS: Okay. So, I think we 12 might still--**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: Nobody goes to jail. 14 MS. MEYERS: So for manufacturers'**  **15 products, distribution in commerce is -- I 16 think we also need to put is when the products**  **17 are certified and offered for sale. 18 MS. BARHYDT: No, this is defining**  **19 when you have to certify. You can't say that 20 they have to be certified when they're**  **21 certified. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Oh, I like that.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 164**  **1 (Laughter.) 2 MR. MYERS: Laura, this is Frank**  **3 Myers, PVI. When I read that last sentence, 4 it conflicts with the way that you**  **5 characterize the start of the second sentence. 6 I think you need to move the essential element**  **7 of that last sentence and make that the second 8 sentence where, after including engineer to**  **9 order, basic models must be certified prior to 10 distribution in commerce. For engineered**  **11 products, distribution in commerce was defined 12 as the point at which the basic model ships.**  **13 And then the current second sentence, instead 14 of starting with for, needs to be for all**  **15 others-- 16 MS. BARHYDT: That was really**  **17 fast. Okay. Start over. 18 MR. MYERS: Okay. Take however**  **19 off, and move that to become the second 20 sentence, so it's just for engineered**  **21 products. And then this comes up here, 22 instead of for these, it would be for all** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 165**  **1 other or for other domestically-produced. 2 MR. FLY: So that brings up the**  **3 point, can you engineer to order an import? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: What did you just**  **5 change? 6 MS. BARHYDT: We moved the -- for**  **7 engineer to order products, distribution in 8 commerce is defined at the point at which the**  **9 basic model is shipped, we moved that up to 10 the second sentence from the bottom of the**  **11 paragraph. 12 MR. FLY: And the reason I ask**  **13 that is that there is one major custom 14 manufacturer that builds a chance in Tijuana.**  **15 MR. EISNER: Why wouldn't the last 16 sentence cover that?**  **17 MS. BARHYDT: That's kind of what 18 I'm thinking. It seems like this one is**  **19 really for domestic only. 20 MR. FLY: Well, I guess it's**  **21 shipped if it's imported, right? 22 MR. DOPPEL: Well, no, that's,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 166**  **1 see, that's a problem for importers. 2 MR. HON: Can you take out the S**  **3 at the end of line one and the A-L-L-Y at the 4 end of line two.**  **5 MS. BARHYDT: So for 6 domestically-produced engineer to order**  **7 products . . . 8 MR. HON: Line one, drop the S,**  **9 please. 10 MR. STANONIK: And the**  **11 individual-- 12 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, I started**  **13 editing that and then I never went back. 14 MR. MYERS: So for non-domestic**  **15 engineer to order, it wouldn't be when it's 16 imported? Could we just say engineer to order**  **17 products, distribution in commerce is defined 18 as the point at which the basic model is**  **19 shipped or imported? Then we wouldn't have to 20 say domestically.**  **21 MR. BALLO: I mean, someone could 22 be clever and say, well, it hasn't been** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 167**  **1 imported -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: Been imported yet.**  **3 MR. FLY: Okay. That's great 4 there.**  **5 MR. SACHS: Can we just say date 6 instead of a point in time? Date on which...**  **7 MR. EISNER: Do you now have to 8 start the last sentence by saying for other**  **9 foreign manufacture products? 10 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, right above**  **11 that, there's another point. 12 MR. MYERS: On that last sentence**  **13 where you added the other, that probably, 14 because that gets confusing as to which other**  **15 you're talking about. It may be that on that 16 one you should put for foreign manufactured**  **17 products, other than engineer to order 18 distribution.**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: So the main thing is 20 that everybody--**  **21 MR. EISNER: It follows the 22 preceding sentence.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 168**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: --gets what we're 2 talking about because I almost guarantee that**  **3 the right text will get tweaked 12 more times 4 between . . .**  **5 MR. FLY: Your very last sentence 6 on the page, I think, probably ought to be**  **7 after sentence number two. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi.**  **9 So the quantity of 250...that the quantity of 10 250, is there a basis for that? Is that a**  **11 random number? Because, for commercial, that 12 seems like a pretty high number.**  **13 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with 14 AAON. I think the or category is much**  **15 simpler. It's something that we can track and 16 DOE can track, and I have real problems with**  **17 -- 250 in three months, I think, is just going 18 to be a lot of burden to try to keep track of.**  **19 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, 20 PVI. I agree. We had had discussions before**  **21 the break as to the two-year mark. We could 22 do that instead of a count.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 169**  **1 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 2 AHRI. I mean, if you're wanting to have some**  **3 kind of maximum number of units to be 4 equitable for all the product types, I think**  **5 you'd somehow have to connect that number of 6 units to the overall level of business. I**  **7 mean, 250 units might be the right number for 8 where the total annual shipments are two and**  **9 a half million. On the other hand, if the 10 annual shipments are only 2,000, I think 250**  **11 units is way too generous. 12 MR. FLY: And for a custom HVAC**  **13 manufacturer, that could be almost a year's 14 production.**  **15 MR. STANONIK: Well, yes. I guess 16 what I'm saying is, you can't put one number**  **17 there and apply it to every product category. 18 That's not fair.**  **19 MR. KLEISS: That line needs to be 20 phrased the same way as the second one. We're**  **21 not trying to limit how many orders they can 22 take. We're just limiting the classification** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 170**  **1 based on-- 2 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I just keep**  **3 throwing out numbers and ideas here so-- 4 MR. BAUMAN: Jeff Bauman with**  **5 National. As far as the number of shipments 6 to use, it's impossible to track from a**  **7 practical standpoint, for me. You know, how 8 many orders you took and how many orders, and**  **9 it's meaningless as far as what we're talking 10 about here. It's not, it doesn't tell you how**  **11 many units out there. It could be ten orders 12 for 10,000 units. It could be -- just the**  **13 number of orders is meaningless. Like Neshan 14 said earlier, each one of his customers are**  **15 going to have a separate order for that. You 16 know, I might take an order, one order for**  **17 10,000 units. 18 MS. BARHYDT: So, Jeff, people**  **19 also expressed the view that there is no way 20 that they're going to have a basic model**  **21 that's not getting redesigned less often than 22 every two years, that if they get another** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 171**  **1 order they're going to be re-engineering it. 2 MR. BAUMAN: Absolutely. And we**  **3 still -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: I'm trying to get at**  **5 the, engineered to order is excluded because 6 it's assumed to be sort of a one-off, one-time**  **7 deal. And if you do that work, to engineer it 8 to order once, but then you keep on selling it**  **9 and selling it and selling it during that 10 two-year period, it is not just engineered to**  **11 order anymore. 12 MR. BAUMAN: Absolutely. And**  **13 that's where we've addressed that with the 14 last item on there.**  **15 MS. BARHYDT: But for two years, 16 you might be just selling this thing like**  **17 hotcakes. 18 MR. BAUMAN: Correct. If I had**  **19 some great customer who gave me an order for 20 10,000 units of one model number that I never**  **21 sold to anybody else, I don't have to claim 22 that? I think I would want to have to, I** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 172**  **1 would want that to be claimed because, again, 2 I'm going to be going to every Walmart and**  **3 seeing my unit that's, you know, I sold 10,000 4 of but I took one order for it.**  **5 And I'm not trying to be 6 difficult. One customer is meaningless, also.**  **7 Walmart, you know, if you've got a big 8 customer, you know, and it's everywhere, one**  **9 of my interests is how many units are out 10 there? Either how many units out there or how**  **11 long have you been doing it? 12 If you've been doing it for more**  **13 than two years, it's a repeat product. You 14 didn't use, you didn't have one order and then**  **15 use that same order two years from now. 16 That's very unlikely, and that's where I think**  **17 we've addressed the issue of orders or, you 18 know, concerns and repeats by that two years,**  **19 which is, as Frank said, easy to manage for 20 everybody. And to me, you know, I'm on the**  **21 engineering side, you know, somewhere we can 22 probably look at a number, how many units were** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 173**  **1 sold, looking at how many orders you took to 2 sell that unit would be -- I couldn't tell you**  **3 I could do that. You know, a number of units 4 I have a chance at. Number of orders? Forget**  **5 it. 6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,**  **7 PVI. What about dropping the units and going 8 to one year? Again, it's easy to track.**  **9 Advocates can look at, if something is on 10 there, if it drops off. DOE can have it be**  **11 automated that it will come off the list 12 unless it's changed to a continuing**  **13 production. 14 MR. BAUMAN: The reason we put the**  **15 two years -- this is Jeff Bauman from National 16 -- the reason that we discussed in our**  **17 discussion yesterday with CRE was, the idea of 18 the two years was now you're getting down to,**  **19 basically you're saying one year, you're 20 basically saying potentially one order because**  **21 you've got that order in December and then I 22 got listed. And I get a second order for that** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 174**  **1 or, basic timing-wise-- 2 MR. MYERS: Twelve months then.**  **3 MS. MEYERS: So what if you keep 4 the second version and then put, comma, unless**  **5 approved by the Department. So should you 6 have an extenuating, you know . . .**  **7 MR. EISNER: Another thing, 8 because of the variety of circumstances you're**  **9 talking about, think of a list of various 10 factors with conditions or whatever and one of**  **11 them triggers it. So if it's more than two 12 years, if it's more than so many units, if**  **13 it's more than certain percentage of product 14 sold, that kind of thing, whether that would**  **15 do it. 16 MR. FLY: Yes, this is Mark Fly**  **17 with AAON. The only thing we're taking, 18 that's being considered taking exception to is**  **19 verification; am I correct? Or is there 20 anything else that we've discussed that --**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: I think that's the 22 only thing we've ever discussed.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 175**  **1 MR. FLY: So just to be clear that 2 this is coming in the, most likely, later**  **3 months, but we are defining it now. 4 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers with PVI.**  **5 What if that were changed to 12 months so 6 there's no question that it doesn't reset**  **7 between December 31 and January 1. It's 12 8 months?**  **9 MR. HON: We were just concerned 10 about a product going out in December and, in**  **11 the next year, losing it. 12 MR. MYERS: Right. So this gives**  **13 12 months but never two years. 14 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman. I**  **15 guess I'm trying to think through that where 16 you're saying -- and the only way you're going**  **17 to be able to track that 12 months is your 18 annual certification?**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: No. All the basic 20 models must be certified prior to distribution**  **21 in commerce. So if it's the middle of the 22 cycle, you've got to certify that thing.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 176**  **1 You've got a new engineered to order model, 2 you certify it, we know what that date is.**  **3 MR. BAUMAN: But the next year I 4 can re-certify it. January of the next year,**  **5 assuming we're going to use January 1st, so 6 January of the next year I can certify that**  **7 product again because I might still be selling 8 it. Then in November of that year, I never**  **9 bothered to take it off my list, but you're 10 going to know I've exceeded that 12 months?**  **11 MS. BARHYDT: I'll know. 12 MR. BAUMAN: Job security. I**  **13 guess. Just to me, it's a clearer thing to 14 say two years on the list, but I won't object**  **15 to that. But it's not as clear as saying two 16 years on the list. I think it solves the**  **17 issue. 18 MS. BARHYDT: So Frank has**  **19 suggested that DOE simply remove it from the 20 list, and I'm not comfortable with that. We**  **21 could automatically change it to no longer 22 engineered to order, potentially. But I'm** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 177**  **1 not, I'm not interested in taking stuff off 2 the list. Manufacturers have an obligation to**  **3 tell us when they have, in fact, discontinued 4 something.**  **5 MR. FLY: Or you could stamp it 6 with an expiration date.**  **7 MR. WHITWELL: So does that mean 8 that we put an engineered to order product on**  **9 the list, and we build it once, we have to go 10 in and clean it up or else it's going to**  **11 become a standard product? 12 MS. BARHYDT: Once a year, not**  **13 doing these anymore. 14 MR. WHITWELL: So I might have, I**  **15 mean, I'm going to have a lot of models on 16 there that I got to go in and --**  **17 MS. BARHYDT: Not individual 18 models, basic models.**  **19 MR. WHITWELL: Well, no, but 20 there's going to be over, in the private model**  **21 column, I'm going to have a lot of private 22 model, several, you know, numerous private** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 178**  **1 models that I've got to go in and physically 2 take out of there or else they're going to get**  **3 moved to public? 4 MR. BAUMAN: Laura, when I -- just**  **5 for a second, I think we're talking about you 6 have to re-certify every year. I mean, can**  **7 the DOE be informed that the model was, that 8 -- again, sort of going back to two years in**  **9 a row, can you not, basically, you wouldn't 10 accept it if it's the same model two years**  **11 with a built to order code in it, which would 12 mean you're going to have to sit there while**  **13 these ones, you're going to have somebody go 14 in, saying now I've got to resubmit these, and**  **15 he's going to say, oh shoot, I can't do this 16 one. Now you've got a flag that, hopefully,**  **17 basically tells you you've got to get it 18 inside and tell marketing you've got this**  **19 model or we're going to change it to a build 20 to order. Just tracking all the model numbers**  **21 is going to be tough enough. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, there's some** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 179**  **1 IT work there on the DOE -- 2 MR. BAUMAN: Yes, to flag it at**  **3 the appropriate time. 4 MS. BARHYDT: I didn't totally**  **5 follow that conversation. 6 MR. WHITWELL: So what Jeff was**  **7 saying is, is there a way that, if you 8 resubmit the following year and you resubmit**  **9 the same model under an engineer to order 10 designation, that, you know, there's errors,**  **11 error flags in that certification. Could the 12 Department program it so that would come up**  **13 and say, no, you can't do this, you have to -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: It will flag it for**  **15 us. It's not going to flag it for you. 16 MR. BAUMAN: When you say flag it**  **17 for you, does that mean when we go to submit 18 that to you it will say, hey, this is no good,**  **19 and you're going to tell him -- just like if 20 you did it in something else and --**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: The validation, I 22 get the reports about every two weeks.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 180**  **1 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. But there is 2 a valid, at least the way the software works,**  **3 from what I've seen, you enter your data and 4 there's all these columns over to the right**  **5 that are checked columns, right? 6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, but --**  **7 MR. WHITWELL: And so it tells you 8 if there's something --**  **9 MS. BARHYDT: -- checking them 10 against the database.**  **11 MR. WHITWELL: -- that's not 12 correct, or it doesn't make sense.**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: Well, all it's 14 telling you is that, basically, where it**  **15 required a yes or a no, you entered a Q, or 16 where you were supposed to enter a whole**  **17 number, you entered a decimal point. It's not 18 checking it against the database. It's just**  **19 an Excel flat file, and so it doesn't know 20 what you personally submitted last year.**  **21 MR. BAUMAN: But you know that on 22 your report?** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 181**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, because ours 2 runs it against the database when it gets**  **3 imported, yes. 4 MR. BAUMAN: So to me, you're sort**  **5 of getting the same thing. There would be an 6 additional step that, when you get that error,**  **7 you're going to call me or Bob and say, hey, 8 you submitted that same one in two years.**  **9 MR. AMRANE: Well, they charge you 10 and flag it for you. And you can do it.**  **11 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, there's value 12 added.**  **13 MR. WHITWELL: I wouldn't want 14 that to automatically go over to a public**  **15 because I'm only building that once. Once I 16 build it, it's listed in there. We're not**  **17 going to build that model, that same model 18 number again. So I would like to have it just**  **19 disappear, rather than me have to go in there 20 and have to do something to remove it.**  **21 MR. BAUMAN: Or Laura give you a 22 call and say, hey, you need to change this.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 182**  **1 MR. BALLO: It wouldn't have to go 2 over to public, right? It could go over to**  **3 private model number. 4 MR. WHITWELL: But that's where,**  **5 that's where it starts. That's where it is. 6 That's why I submit it, right?**  **7 MR. BALLO: Well, if you had a 8 separate column for engineered to order and**  **9 then, at the end of the year, it would go over 10 to the private model.**  **11 MR. EISNER: Both would be 12 private, just go to a different column.**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: Are you okay with 14 it?**  **15 MR. BALLO: I'm not going to ever 16 know about it anyway so . . .**  **17 MR. WHITWELL: There's just 18 another hidden column for you, right?**  **19 MR. BAUMAN: And we're talking 20 about engineer to order basic models.**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: Thank you. 22 MR. EISNER: At the end of the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 183**  **1 year, they move from the engineered column to 2 the--**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So I'm going 4 to tell you how I think we would implement**  **5 this, and it may or may not be acceptable to 6 you.**  **7 MS. DANE: So that could be less 8 than 12 months.**  **9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, unless you put 10 it on your report. If you put it on your**  **11 report, it wouldn't be -- and we would know 12 that it was under 12 months, so you were good**  **13 to keep it engineered to order. 14 MR. BAUMAN: So we're saying**  **15 certification after 12 months? 16 MS. BARHYDT: No.**  **17 MR. BAUMAN: If I certify that 18 product in November, so it's on my listing.**  **19 And then in January, on my re-certification, 20 I'm getting dropped--**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: Either you put it on 22 your annual cert, or it gets dropped.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 184**  **1 MR. SACHS: In other words, you're 2 purging the file.**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: I'm purging the file 4 on the annual cert date. So either you say,**  **5 no, I'm still offering this one, or you don't 6 put it on there and it gets dropped.**  **7 MR. HON: So that could give you 8 23 months.**  **9 MS. BARHYDT: No. It will be less 10 than 12.**  **11 MR. HON: But if you put it on the 12 file again--**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, then that would 14 give you--**  **15 MR. HON: Twenty-three months or-- 16 MS. BARHYDT: No, it would give**  **17 you 13. 18 MR. STANONIK: Yes, let's say it**  **19 was 11, then you added it right. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, yes. Okay. So**  **21 it's one month after. Okay, yes. 22 MR. SACHS: This seems to be a** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 185**  **1 risk that I could accept in the engineer-to 2 order-space.**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: It's not public 4 anyway.**  **5 MR. EISNER: Why can't it be 12 6 months after it's entered in the database?**  **7 The computer knows the date on which it's 8 entered.**  **9 MS. BARHYDT: It's just a lot more 10 work for us to keep purging individual things.**  **11 MR. EISNER: You're not purging. 12 You program it to automatically--**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But we have 14 to program that purge. And the way we're**  **15 already working on implementing purging is on 16 the annual certification.**  **17 MR. BAUMAN: When you say they're 18 automatically discontinued the next annual**  **19 certification, and cannot be re-certified with 20 a build to order? You're going to change that**  **21 code to a discontinued or whatever, and then 22 I go and do my annual certification, and is** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 186**  **1 there something-- 2 MS. BARHYDT: Classified as**  **3 engineer to order for more than 12 months. So 4 that's sort of my starting point, so it's**  **5 going to kick -- at that 12-month date, it's 6 going to kick you over.**  **7 MR. AMRANE: You wouldn't track 8 the model.**  **9 MS. BARHYDT: No, I can track the 10 date it's submitted.**  **11 MR. AMRANE: You said that you 12 will purge the database--**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: So purge is, is-- 14 MR. AMRANE: Okay.**  **15 MS. BARHYDT: It means that it's 16 not on the list of active models. Nothing is**  **17 ever deleted, really. 18 MR. EISNER: So you would never,**  **19 you would never purge something. Once it was 20 discontinued, you'd go into the database and**  **21 you'd note the date. Even though it hadn't 22 been purged yet, you'd go to the database and** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 187**  **1 note the year's up, even though the annual 2 re-cert hasn't come around. You would not** **3 approve anything 4 MS. BARHYDT: Well, it would get**  **5 swapped from engineered to order to not 6 engineered to order, whatever, the not flag.**  **7 MR. EISNER: And it would always 8 be in your database then as not engineered to**  **9 order, and they could not use that 10 classification. They'd have to do something**  **11 different if they want to sell another one of 12 those products.**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 14 MR. SACHS: It's like painting a**  **15 cabinet red if the customer wanted it red. 16 MS. BARHYDT: If you really think**  **17 that it's a one-time deal, I would just let it 18 fall off the list. The only reason you would**  **19 perpetuate it in your annual cert is if you 20 think that you are going to offer it again.**  **21 MR. EISNER: But if you don't 22 offer it again, it's going to have to be** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 188**  **1 classified. It can't be engineered to order 2 anymore.**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: Well, so let's say 4 you certified it four months before your**  **5 annual cert date. Your annual cert date, you 6 could still have it marked as engineered to**  **7 order, but you do that with the understanding 8 that, after 12 months, it's going to get**  **9 switched over. Once it's switched over, it 10 won't be automatically purged, and you'll have**  **11 to delete it yourself. You'll have to mark it 12 as discontinued at some point. Does that all**  **13 make sense? 14 MR. FLY: So it's automatically**  **15 going to be switched to-- 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, we can do that.**  **17 MR. FLY: Or do we want to do 18 that?**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: And do you want to 20 do that?**  **21 MR. FLY: Yes. I don't know that 22 I want to do that because if it's you know, if** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 189**  **1 it's -- I've offered it for sale or I took a 2 purchase order, and it takes me six months**  **3 until I have something, and I enter it in 4 November--**  **5 MS. BARHYDT: Right before you 6 shipped because we said engineer to order**  **7 doesn't have to be until you ship. 8 MR. FLY: Well, there's four units**  **9 on the order, and I ship the first one. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.**  **11 MR. FLY: Okay. All right. So I 12 could re-certify it one time, basically. On**  **13 the fifth year that I re-certified it, you 14 might be caught.**  **15 MR. BAUMAN: Can I get 16 clarification on the last one? So when we say**  **17 that -- in my mind, the last line on there, 18 we're saying engineer to order basic models**  **19 are automatically reclassified as discontinued 20 at the next annual certification after 12**  **21 months from initial certification? Question 22 mark, question mark, question mark.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 190**  **1 MR. STANONIK: You said 2 reclassified.**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: I know. 4 MR. BAUMAN: That's classified as**  **5 we're changing the classification from 6 engineer to order to discontinued.**  **7 MR. DOPPEL: From the initial date 8 of certification?**  **9 MR. BAUMAN: Is that what we're 10 talking about when you say 12 months?**  **11 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, oh,**  **13 you're talking about up here? 14 MR. BAUMAN: Well, no, I'm talking**  **15 about the bottom, but I'm trying to make the 16 last line, basically, worded similarly to the**  **17 first line. 18 MR. FLY: So he's saying he would**  **19 like it to go to-- 20 MR. EISNER: Use the same terms in**  **21 the first three special lines. You're using 22 classified, no basic model may remain** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 191**  **1 classified, so, therefore, it should be are 2 automatically reclassified.**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I see what 4 you're saying. Hold on.**  **5 MR. EISNER: I thought you said it 6 didn't automatically 12 months after initial**  **7 certification-- 8 MR. FLY: You were saying**  **9 re-certification date. I like that better. 10 MR. MYERS: Yes.**  **11 MR. WHITWELL: I don't understand 12 what that said.**  **13 MR. EISNER: So you're trying to 14 give them 12 months, but you're working on an**  **15 annual basis. So you're giving them more than 16 12 months, and that's where the problems come**  **17 in. Do you intend to not approve any that 18 come in after 12 months even if you're not up**  **19 to your annual change in your database? 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So the way**  **21 I'm thinking this would work, let's say that 22 the annual certification date is January 1.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 192**  **1 You submit a certification on November 1. You 2 submit your January 1 certification. You do**  **3 not list the basic model. The last sentence 4 kicks in, and it's automatically reported as**  **5 discontinued and it comes off the list of 6 active models. If you want to keep that model**  **7 active, alive, you have to re-certify it on 8 your annual certification. At that time, you**  **9 can say it is engineered to order because you 10 have not exceeded 12 months or you can mark it**  **11 as not being engineered to order because 12 you've decided you think that this is going to**  **13 be a longstanding product. But the following 14 November, we'll reclassify it to no longer be**  **15 engineered to order. So the following 16 January, it's not going to get automatically**  **17 marked as discontinued because it's not marked 18 as engineered to order.**  **19 MR. WHITWELL: So what happens to 20 it?**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: It stays on your 22 list of certified products until you tell us** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 193**  **1 that it's discontinued. 2 MR. WHITWELL: As an engineered to**  **3 order? 4 MS. BARHYDT: No, because in that**  **5 November we switched it to no longer be 6 engineered to order.**  **7 MR. WHITWELL: So then we're right 8 back to where I've got a list of--**  **9 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So you-- 10 MR. WHITWELL: --engineer to**  **11 order, I've got to go in and physically remove 12 those every year? I thought we were going to**  **13 have them just disappear. 14 MS. BARHYDT: It depends. It will**  **15 automatically disappear on the first annual 16 cert date.**  **17 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 18 MS. BARHYDT: But if you choose to**  **19 continue that certification beyond that point, 20 we'll automatically switch it. And if you all**  **21 don't like this framework, we don't have to do 22 this. I'm just trying to explain how the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 194**  **1 system would work with these dates. 2 MR. AMRANE: This is not synced**  **3 because let's say I certify on January 2nd. 4 Then, you know, what would happen here is**  **5 that, you know, after one year you would 6 remove it. Then I can re-enter it as an**  **7 engineered product, and it would stay there 8 for another year or it would be automatically**  **9 switched to a regular product, although I 10 would like maybe to remove it on the--**  **11 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with 12 AAON. I don't like the idea of automatically**  **13 rolling it to a standard product. I think 14 it--**  **15 MS. MEYERS: I think that at 11 16 months, an automatic notice should be**  **17 generated to the manufacturer, and he is asked 18 to make a selection that this is going to**  **19 expire in 30 days, please let us know what to 20 do.**  **21 MR. STANONIK: No notification 22 means it expires.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 195**  **1 MS. MEYERS: Right. 2 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with**  **3 AHRI. What if you took that last sentence 4 and, rather than say automatically recorded as**  **5 discontinued at the next annual certification, 6 it would be automatically recorded as**  **7 discontinued at the second annual 8 certification following the date it's**  **9 introduced into commerce. That gives you a 10 maximum of 23 months, which ties in with**  **11 Jeff's two-year number, but, in fact, it gives 12 you at least a minimum of 13 months.**  **13 MS. MEYERS: The problem is, is 14 you could have many of these, all at differing**  **15 dates. And it would be very hard to keep 16 track of that. You know, if you only have one**  **17 or two in there, it's not a big deal. But if 18 you have hundreds, and all those dates are**  **19 falling at different times, I mean, you'll 20 have to put a person on staff almost just to**  **21 track this. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Another person on** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 196**  **1 staff. 2 MS. MEYERS: So there needs to be**  **3 some type of automatic notification that goes 4 to the manufacturer and asks them, you know .**  **5 . . 6 MR. BAUMAN: After two years, you**  **7 know, you're going to get some error report 8 back, likely, from Laura that if you did**  **9 something else wrong, it just seems to me that 10 maybe say 18 months or whatever to give a**  **11 little more time. But I don't think, again, 12 that's going to make or break the nation's**  **13 energy requirements. We're talking about a, 14 we're having a very expensive conversation**  **15 here, and I'm guilty of making this more 16 complicated than necessary, but that we just,**  **17 you know, if it's one to two years, hey, you 18 wanted to submit this in your certification**  **19 report again but you can't do it that way and 20 it's not going in until you fix that problem**  **21 and keep it simple. You can go on it twice, 22 can't go on a third time if it's a built to** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 197**  **1 order classification. We're talking about a 2 couple of months, one way or the other, here.**  **3 Bob has somebody on his staff that's getting 4 that report back, and he's going to go kick**  **5 their butt when they got too many errors on it 6 so . . .**  **7 MS. BARHYDT: So let me ask you 8 this: these are engineered to order, so these**  **9 are special order. How often are these things 10 going out more than once?**  **11 MS. DANE: I think they gave you 12 different scenarios of blanket purchase orders**  **13 or it goes to three or four locations to test. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But to me,**  **15 the only problem with it being automatically 16 reported as discontinued at the first annual**  **17 certification is if you are still making these 18 things. And if they're really a one-time**  **19 deal, are you really making more of them? 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, and I think**  **21 that Mark was getting a little bit at it, too. 22 It's kind of the timelines and blanket** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 198**  **1 purchase orders. So if somebody comes in and 2 we're going to make ten 60 tons, but if**  **3 they're very unique and they take me quite a 4 while--**  **5 MS. BARHYDT: To make. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: --to make, and their**  **7 construction cycle is such that it will 8 stagger it out. I mean, there are a lot of**  **9 things going ifs here, I realize; but, you 10 know, it could go over, that project can be**  **11 shipping over 18 months to two years. That's 12 conceivable for some of these big projects.**  **13 MR. FLY: But, rarely, half that. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, yes.**  **15 MR. FLY: I mean, it could happen. 16 But rarely.**  **17 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm feeling like-- 18 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,**  **19 PVI. I know, in our industry, they are, we do 20 sometimes get a request for two or three or**  **21 four, six of one custom thing. But, for us, 22 90-plus percent, well over 90 percent, are** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 199**  **1 just that one order when we engineer to order. 2 So it doesn't spread over any longer than it**  **3 takes us to get them manufactured, but, since 4 we're starting the clock ticking at shipping,**  **5 it is 90 percent of ours is one time and-- 6 MR. FLY: It's one order of one**  **7 unit. 8 MR. MYERS: One order of one unit**  **9 or one order of two or six, you know. 10 MR. FLY: But they all ship at**  **11 once. 12 MR. MYERS: All ship as quickly as**  **13 we can get them filled. 14 MR. EISNER: So if this is**  **15 something that's only available to you, why 16 doesn't simply getting an error report that**  **17 tells you that this is no longer good for the 18 certification of that product suffice? At the**  **19 end of 12 months, you cannot ship anymore of 20 these products. You're the one, you**  **21 automatically send them an error report, so 22 they no longer can use it. Why do you have to** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 200**  **1 clean it up? 2 MS. BARHYDT: Because we have to**  **3 maintain a list of all the current basic 4 models that are in distribution in commerce,**  **5 so we have to, at some point, retire them. 6 This is no longer being made.**  **7 MR. EISNER: So at the end of the 8 year, is it possible to generate a list of the**  **9 current model numbers that are made to order 10 to the company where they come back and say**  **11 which ones should stay on the list? At the 12 end of the year, I don't understand why they'd**  **13 be shipping anymore of these. It's no longer 14 good, so why--**  **15 MS. BARHYDT: Well, but what 16 they're saying is that sometimes they are**  **17 still shipping them after a year, that it 18 takes them up to two years to make them and**  **19 ship them. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: For a single order.**  **21 MR. EISNER: For a single order 22 that occurred before the end of the 12 months.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 201**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 2 MR. EISNER: So could your system**  **3 generate an automatic list of everything 4 that's on that private column, engineered to**  **5 order, in a form where they check off, 6 remove--**  **7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So could we 8 make that? Yes. But they're the ones who**  **9 gave us the information in the first place. 10 They already have it. There's no reason for**  **11 us to generate a list of what they gave to us. 12 They already have it.**  **13 MR. EISNER: Well, is it true that 14 all of you record them in a way where you**  **15 should be able to generate your own list? And 16 if not, why not?**  **17 MR. BALLO: Before you know it, if 18 this information was just public and you could** **19 see what 20 (Laughter.)**  **21 MR. EISNER: Why can't you 22 generate a list from the reports that you** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 202**  **1 submitted to DOE and you just go through and 2 check off the ones that should be taken off of**  **3 DOE's website and send it back? Are you not 4 all using computers to track your--**  **5 MS. DANE: Can you download your 6 database and sort by date?**  **7 MS. BARHYDT: You can, you can 8 download everything that you've submitted,**  **9 except that now it won't be on the website so 10 you won't be able to download it. You'll have**  **11 your own file that you submitted, though. 12 MR. HON: Yes, I have a running**  **13 file. This is Charlie Hon. I have a running 14 file that I put on there, and next year I'm**  **15 going to go over that file, purge it myself, 16 and clean it up.**  **17 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, that's what 18 most people do. They have their annual**  **19 certification sheet that they submit. Over 20 the course of the year, they just add lines**  **21 whenever they introduce something new. They 22 upload the same file because there's no** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 203**  **1 penalty for submitting the same models that 2 are already certified. So they just keep on**  **3 adding at the bottom. And then at the annual 4 certification, they go down the row and they**  **5 say, D, D, D, E, E, E, E, E, D, D, D. Do for 6 discontinued, E for it's already certified,**  **7 don't worry about it. They add whatever their 8 next model lines are for the following year.**  **9 They submit it, and they're good. 10 MR. EISNER: Even if you have it**  **11 in a Word document-- 12 MS. BARHYDT: And I know AHRI**  **13 members don't do that because you all submit 14 the stuff. But that's the way people who do**  **15 it on their own do it. 16 MR. EISNER: Even if you have it**  **17 in a Word document, as opposed to something 18 like an Excel sheet, can't you search on some**  **19 code, like ETO, whatever way you enter it into 20 your Word document?**  **21 MS. MEYERS: So most of these 22 things are automatically uploaded from our** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 204**  **1 bills of material, which essentially runs our 2 -- so I don't know the answer to that, but**  **3 that could be a significant, significant 4 change. It could mean we have to go change**  **5 our entire Oracle system. I don't know, but 6 it could because it's not how it's done today.**  **7 Maybe it needs to be changed, but it's not 8 just a Word document or an Excel file in most**  **9 cases. At least for my company. 10 MR. EISNER: What is generated**  **11 from the bills? What is the bill putting the 12 information into if it's not a Word document**  **13 or an Excel sheet? 14 MS. HOOTMAN: The bill of**  **15 materials? 16 MR. EISNER: I thought Karen was**  **17 saying that the bill generates the data that 18 goes into some system, so it's either going to**  **19 an Excel sheet or a Word type document. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: No, these are huge**  **21 software programs that we purchase in multiple 22 millions of dollars that run these systems.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 205**  **1 MS. MEYERS: Like SAP or Oracle. 2 MR. EISNER: But that's what I'm**  **3 saying. If it's going into something that 4 expensive, it should be able to give you a**  **5 report, shouldn't it? You should be able to 6 search--**  **7 MS. HOOTMAN: Not without $100,000 8 worth of programming. That's usually the**  **9 answer back is, no, we've got -- six people, 10 ten months to do it, you know. Do you want to**  **11 pay us to do that? 12 MR. NESHAN: Maybe we can fund**  **13 that. 14 MR. KLEISS: Well, but are we**  **15 talking about numbers that are submitted to 16 DOE on the C--**  **17 MS. BARHYDT: CCMS. 18 MR. KLEISS: CCMS. Okay. So**  **19 that, all that information, all those ratings 20 are put on an Excel template.**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 22 MR. KLEISS: So I put together, I** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 206**  **1 know when I put together stuff that I 2 submitted, I've got a 2013 DOE submittal**  **3 folder with each of my CCMS spreadsheets. 4 Now, if I can just have a yes/no or a date**  **5 column for engineered to order, now I've got 6 my one-stop shop spreadsheet that I maintain,**  **7 and that can be as a manufacturing, my 8 management system.**  **9 MR. HON: I'm going to have a 10 layered spreadsheet with extra comments on my**  **11 spreadsheet that you don't see, you'll never 12 see. I'll be highlighting colors across**  **13 there, this one has to go, and page two has 14 everything downloaded from that spreadsheet**  **15 that you need for your column, bam. 16 MR. KLEISS: For however many**  **17 types of products that you have to submit, 18 these CCMS data sheets, you've got that many**  **19 spreadsheets to look at annually. Not that 20 bad.**  **21 MR. EISNER: You got to be able to 22 find the data to submit to DOE in the first** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 207**  **1 place. That's what I'm having trouble with. 2 You have to find it to submit it. I don't**  **3 understand why you can't find it to delete it. 4 MS. BARHYDT: So the way I've got**  **5 this listed now, and I don't have the right 6 words, but what I'm thinking is that you'll**  **7 get the one annual certification cycle where 8 we won't purge it, and then the next time it**  **9 comes up we'll just purge it because I 10 understand that you may have a lot of these**  **11 engineered to order and you don't want to have 12 to go through and find them all and delete**  **13 them all. 14 MR. FLY: If you can do that,**  **15 that's the simplest for us. 16 MS. BARHYDT: So we can delete**  **17 those, but it won't go more than two years. 18 It'll be less than two years.**  **19 MR. EISNER: But any request that 20 comes in one year after, 12 months after, will**  **21 automatically generate an error report, too. 22 MS. BARHYDT: No. It'll be gone.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 208**  **1 We're just going to discontinue it. 2 MR. EISNER: You're going to**  **3 discontinue it, but it may be more than 12 4 months after**  **5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. And so-- 6 MR. EISNER: What happens 12**  **7 months after they first list it, first 8 reported it to you?**  **9 MS. BARHYDT: So I changed that, 10 as well. Basically, you get engineered to**  **11 order for that same period of time. Whatever 12 that period of time is is what you get**  **13 engineered to order. 14 MR. EISNER: So some people might**  **15 get more months than others. 16 MS. BARHYDT: It might be 12 for**  **17 somebody who, well, 13 for one person and it 18 might be 23 for somebody else. But it's not**  **19 to exceed-- 20 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with**  **21 AHRI. At least my thought process in 22 suggesting this is that, to some extent, since** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 209**  **1 it is engineered to order, let's just say the 2 manufacturer is not in total control of when**  **3 the customer wants it. I mean, part of the 4 engineered to order is I want it at a certain**  **5 time, and so it's not exactly like the 6 manufacturer can plan and let's say "game it"**  **7 so they always get the 23 months, you know. 8 It's going to be driven by what their customer**  **9 wanted, when they wanted it, and then all this 10 lays over it and it will be what it is. I**  **11 mean, I assume, you know, potentially, I 12 guess, a manufacturer saying, well, could you**  **13 maybe want it delivered in, let's say could I 14 maybe get it to you by December? I mean, that**  **15 might be a discussion, but, most often, I 16 would suspect a customer says, no, I didn't**  **17 come to you because I want it in December, I 18 came to you because I need it, you know, such**  **19 and such a date. 20 MS. BARHYDT: So will that work?**  **21 MR. EISNER: Anybody got a problem 22 with it? So no disagreement, no no votes, and** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 210**  **1 no abstentions? 2 MS. MEYERS: Well, back to my**  **3 earlier comment, should we put anything on 4 there that -- I know you're going to hate me**  **5 for this, Laura, but in instances where this 6 will not apply, exceptions, you know -- the**  **7 way it's written now is fine for my company, 8 but trying to think of the broader industry**  **9 and specialized units, I mean, what if you 10 had, you know, three specialized units that or**  **11 ten specialized units, and they wanted them 12 sent to you over three years, you know, and**  **13 they're massive large units the size of this 14 room? Suddenly, there's no way to meet that**  **15 because we, you know -- I think it's good that 16 we've got definitive here, but because we've**  **17 gotten so definitive we may have locked 18 ourselves into a box.**  **19 So I personally don't have a 20 problem with the way it's written, but I just,**  **21 there's all these exceptions out there, and 22 I'm just --** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 211**  **1 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers 2 with PVI. The consequence of that, if I'm**  **3 understanding what you're saying, Karen, is if 4 you have these size of this room, you've got**  **5 an order on one day, and then they didn't want 6 them, give me that first one that takes you**  **7 six months to build, but I don't want that 8 second one delivered until three years from**  **9 now. That's what you're talking about? 10 MS. MEYERS: Or they order ten,**  **11 and they want three in the first year, four in 12 the second year, and three in the last year**  **13 because it's a massive, you know, specialized 14 project for a special contract.**  **15 MR. MYERS: It's eight over the 16 next five years. Could that be addressed by,**  **17 if you go more than this, you have to claim 18 that as a continuing model and you're subject**  **19 to verification testing, and then you work 20 that out with whoever is providing your**  **21 service? 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Subject to** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 212**  **1 verification testing. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So let's have**  **3 a reality check here. The conversation that 4 I understand HVAC manufacturers to have had**  **5 was a very strong proponent of taking the AHRI 6 basic model group approach to verification**  **7 testing. So this is one basic model within a 8 basic model group. So, all right, the odds of**  **9 getting selected are phenomenally low. 10 And the other discussion has been**  **11 that, if there are no units available for 12 tests, pick something else. So if there are**  **13 no units available for tests, how is this ever 14 going to get selected for verification**  **15 testing? 16 MS. MEYERS: I'm not worried about**  **17 that. I'm worried about staying certified 18 under three years on engineer to order. We've**  **19 already -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But why does**  **21 it have to remain engineered to order? The 22 only reason to keep it engineered to order is** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 213**  **1 to keep it excluded from verification. 2 MS. MEYERS: In one specific skew**  **3 that on engineered to order for a specific job 4 that, as Tom said, is made in New York City**  **5 and it's going to take him three years to 6 complete it and it's a specific unit, special**  **7 features, but the building schedule is going 8 to be six months.**  **9 I don't know if it would happen. 10 I mean, we could probably just drop this**  **11 conversation if everybody wants to because, 12 again, I don't have a problem with the way**  **13 this is written, but it just seems like there 14 ought to be, you know, some clause that --**  **15 MR. WHITWELL: Some exception. 16 Some, some --**  **17 MS. MEYERS: That should you have 18 this --**  **19 MR. WHITWELL: -- to, you know, 20 you have some unusual circumstances.**  **21 MS. MEYERS: I mean, we run into 22 weird things all the time about, you know,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 214**  

### 1 nuances in the market needs. So I can -- **2 MR. EISNER: There's always the 3 ability to ask for a waiver.**  **4 MS. BARHYDT: No, no. 5 MR. HON: All you'd have to do is**  **6 just get, just flip it over to another 7 category.**  **8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, exactly. 9 MR. HON: You've got months,**  **10 you've got at least a year to do so, so how 11 painful is that?**  **12 MS. BARHYDT: Your next annual 13 cert, just switch it from a Y to an N.**  **14 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 15 AHRI. What if you, after two years, you**  **16 changed it to a private model, to a Jill 17 Special?**  **18 MR. HON: Yes, that works just 19 fine. You've moved it out of that category.**  **20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, I think that's 21 the way to address it.**  **22 MR. EISNER: All right. No**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 215**  **1 objections? No abstentions? Okay. 2 MS. BARHYDT: And the other slide,**  **3 too? 4 MR. EISNER: What's the other**  **5 slide? 6 MR. WHITWELL: So just one**  **7 clarification, one clarification question on 8 this. So, Laura, I assume that it would be**  **9 okay to certify before you ship, right? 10 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, yes, that's,**  **11 that's -- 12 MR. WHITWELL: You can certify it**  **13 any time up to that point, right? I'm just 14 thinking about how our process -- I don't know**  **15 when they ship exactly, so I'm going to do it 16 ahead of time.**  **17 MS. BARHYDT: Honestly, a lot of 18 what we see is manufacturers know what their**  **19 model offerings are going to be for the next 20 year well in advance.**  **21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, not an 22 engineer to order --** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 216**  

### 1 MS. BARHYDT: No, not for **2 engineered to order, but for a lot of their 3 stock items. They know way in advance, and**  **4 they just submit it all at once. Whenever 5 they come out with their new product line,**  **6 they submit it all. It's not like they're 7 sitting there waiting for --**  **8 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. So we have 9 the once a year; but if we're coming out with**  **10 something in the middle of that next year, 11 then you have the ability to come in and put**  **12 that in. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.**  **14 MR. EISNER: Okay. This was the 15 first paragraph.**  **16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 17 MR. EISNER: Everybody okay with**  **18 this? No objections? No abstentions? Okay. 19 That's it for those issues you wanted to**  **20 discuss? 21 MS. BARHYDT: I think so. Did**  **22 anyone else have any other thoughts or other**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 217**  **1 issues? 2 MR. EISNER: All right. We got**  **3 both of these cleared. It's almost 12:25. 4 What if we take an hour for lunch? When we**  **5 come back, let's talk about the report to 6 ASRAC and everything but verification. Well,**  **7 it will cover verification. We'll talk about 8 that. But with respect to everything else, I**  **9 think, as we did at the meeting at the meeting 10 before we submitted the interim report, that**  **11 we want to talk about what we want to say in 12 this report, what points this group would like**  **13 to make to ASRAC about where we are on all of 14 the certification parts, where we are on**  **15 verification where we will be asking for more 16 time to work out the details on that.**  **17 MR. WHITWELL: And we need to add 18 another column to this that says engineer to**  **19 order? I thought that we -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, so I've got**  **21 that here. So we're adding an engineer to 22 order column, and we're also adding a private** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 218**  **1 model number. 2 MR. WHITWELL: We have that out**  **3 there already. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So,**  **5 basically, it's these two pieces of language, 6 and the rest of it was just examples.**  **7 MR. BAUMAN: Laura, would the 8 engineered column potentially be your either**  **9 engineered to order or your discontinued or 10 your out of -- because I know we talked about**  **11 -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: No, that's the**  **13 actual code, whether you're adding or you're 14 re-certifying, your discontinuing. Whether or**  **15 not an individual model is engineered to 16 order, it could be separate.**  **17 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. How about 18 built to order versus built to stock? Does**  **19 that have to be declared? 20 MS. BARHYDT: We haven't discussed**  **21 that yet, and we haven't set any requirements 22 that hinge on that so --** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 219**  **1 MR. BAUMAN: I think in our CRE 2 discussions, the potential for a difference**  **3 there came under model selection by, you know, 4 you might select or you might, how you obtain**  **5 that unit for a test. For a built to order 6 product, you would have to work, the**  **7 manufacturer would have to know before then 8 because -- and you might want to be steered in**  **9 a direction where you're going to be ordering 10 something that we're likely to sell to**  **11 somebody if we're going to give you a bill to 12 order. So I would say there's a potential for**  **13 some differences there, but we can debate that 14 ad nauseam when we get there.**  **15 And my other quick question, basic 16 model, private model, it is required fields?**  **17 Because I'm assuming a private model number 18 would be not be a required field, but the**  **19 other would be? 20 MS. BARHYDT: Right.**  **21 MR. BALLO: So for the definition 22 there, it should be private model number, and** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 220**  **1 maybe we could have something distributed 2 there as a unique model number for an**  **3 individual consumer or for an individual 4 customer or developer, yes.**  **5 MR. EISNER: Okay. Everybody okay 6 with that?**  **7 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 8 I have a question. Do we have to put in here**  **9 the concept that we were talking about 10 earlier, I think on the previous page, about**  **11 marking on there the DOE model number, and 12 then you don't have to put all of this -- I**  **13 just don't see any of that language here. 14 MS. BARHYDT: So the regs are**  **15 already in place for basic model number and 16 individual model number where individual model**  **17 number is the number that's marked on the 18 product. And so I think that addresses what**  **19 you're talking about. 20 MR. MYERS: So we could do that**  **21 today? 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Under existing** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 221**  

### 1 regs, you can do that. **2 MR. MYERS: Okay, all right. 3 MR. EISNER: Okay. I think**  **4 somebody else had a hand up. Yes? 5 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, this is, as far**  **6 as the length of the meeting today, I think 7 some of us are going to probably get out of**  **8 here early because of the Martin Luther King 9 events are going to just snarl any kind of**  **10 transportation. 11 MR. MYERS: And the weather.**  **12 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. So -- 13 MR. EISNER: What is early?**  **14 MR. DOPPEL: 2:45-ish. 15 MR. EISNER: Okay. I mean, that**  **16 -- well, let's vote on this, and then let's 17 talk about this afternoon. Any objections to**  **18 this? 19 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe it's there,**  **20 Laura, but I think, does it say in there that 21 the engineered to order column, the data in**  **22 the engineered to order column is not public?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 222**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: That was on the 2 prior slide.**  **3 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 4 MR. EISNER: Any objections? Any**  **5 abstentions? Okay. We're talking about 6 coming back at 1:30. I don't think we would**  **7 need more than an hour, if that, to talk about 8 the report to ASRAC on where we are now. I**  **9 envision, unless somebody else had some ideas 10 for issues, the rest of the afternoon would**  **11 have been spent on verification. 12 MR. STARR: Why don't we do a**  **13 shorter lunch? It's just right down the way. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Do people want to**  **15 bring their lunch back here? 16 MR. EISNER: Should we say a half**  **17 hour? 18 MS. BARHYDT: And bring your lunch**  **19 back. 20 MR. EISNER: Bring your lunch back.**  **21 And then we'll get as much done as we can, and 22 if we have to, we'll quit early this** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 223**  **1 afternoon. 2 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **3 matter went off the record at 12:30 p.m. and 4 resumed at 1:14 p.m.)**  **5 MR. EISNER: I am not sure if 6 everybody is back, but we're going to get**  **7 started. 8 At the end of the last meeting**  **9 that we had in the middle of August, we talked 10 about the report to the ASRAC. We talked**  **11 about making two recommendations. One, we 12 felt that, by the end of this meeting, we**  **13 would have resolved all of the issues except 14 for verification. So we should report to**  **15 ASRAC any recommendation for them to consider 16 and send to the Department of Energy. And the**  **17 second recommendation would be that they 18 extend the amount of time for us to continue**  **19 to work on verification, and we're going to 20 note all the extra time in meetings that we**  **21 had set up and estimated that we could 22 complete this by the middle of September, at** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 224**  **1 least we could finish the meetings and then 2 prepare the report to ASRAC on verification.**  **3 Does everybody still feel 4 comfortable with that approach? Does anybody**  **5 have any comments on it? 6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers**  **7 with PVI. I'm willing to continue working 8 towards resolution on the verification aspect,**  **9 but I'm certainly more pessimistic now than I 10 was at the last meeting.**  **11 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other 12 thoughts, other comments?**  **13 MR. SACHS: Could you repeat the 14 last sentence? He trailed off at the end.**  **15 MR. MYERS: Sorry. This is Frank 16 Myers, PVI. I am willing to continue to work**  **17 towards resolution and compromise towards 18 resolution with the verification portion, but**  **19 I'm significantly less, my feelings are 20 significantly less that we will achieve that**  **21 goal. I've not seen any compromise, so it's 22 hard to see, without compromise, where there's** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 225**  **1 an opportunity for resolution. 2 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts?**  **3 Other comments? Again, we do want to talk 4 about whatever report we send, just like we**  **5 did the last time, some bullet-type points 6 that we can put up on the screen as we're**  **7 talking about what we do want to say in the 8 report, in addition to the substance of the**  **9 results we've achieved. But any comments 10 further on the kinds of things that Frank has**  **11 rose? 12 MR. HALLEY: Yes, Geoff Halley,**  **13 ABMA. I sort of echo his thoughts, to a 14 degree. I'm willing to continue. I'd like to**  **15 survey some of the ABMA members before I 16 commit to much more. There are some tough**  **17 issues to resolve. I'm willing to pitch in 18 and see if we can get to a decent result.**  **19 MR. EISNER: Okay. Thank you. 20 Others?**  **21 MR. NESHAN: Just as an observer, 22 I'm not, obviously, a voting member, but,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 226**  **1 based on what I've seen in the past month or 2 so, I see more problems for smaller**  **3 manufacturers. This is going to make, this 4 process that we're going through, the end**  **5 result, and the certification process that we 6 have to go through is going to be extremely**  **7 costly for smaller manufacturers. It could 8 force them to shut their doors.**  **9 MR. EISNER: Okay. All right. Is 10 everybody comfortable? Okay, go ahead.**  **11 MR. STARR: I have a question. I 12 was kind of trying to determine what has**  **13 changed maybe from people being more 14 optimistic formerly to being less optimistic**  **15 now? Is it a question of getting into the 16 issues? Is it a decision change in certain**  **17 members? What's causing it? Is it more 18 coming, is it more now in the details or**  **19 understanding the problems with it? What's 20 kind of causing some of those problems?**  **21 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers, PVI. I 22 can only speak for myself. I have every** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 227**  **1 expectation that there would be an air of 2 compromise in the negotiations. But since**  **3 I've seen none that has occurred since the 4 last meeting, we've had more detailed**  **5 discussions where I expected compromise here 6 on the table. And since it wasn't, we weren't**  **7 able to move forward. 8 MR. EISNER: You're talking**  **9 specifically on verification, right? 10 MR. MYERS: Verification --**  **11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, this is all on 12 verification, correct?**  **13 MR. MYERS: Correct. Verification 14 on water heaters and boilers.**  **15 MS. BARHYDT: And is it a lack of 16 willingness to negotiate by DOE?**  **17 MR. MYERS: I certainly haven't 18 said that. Absolutely not.**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I just want 20 to make sure we weren't a stumbling block.**  **21 MR. MYERS: Okay. 22 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Just** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 228**  **1 clarification from Ashley or Neil or someone. 2 Ultimately, I assume we can report consensus**  **3 recommendations from commercial HVAC CRE but 4 not from boilers but from water heaters**  **5 because we could partition it in any way we 6 want to, in terms of where there is consensus**  **7 and where there's not. 8 MR. EISNER: We could list**  **9 different positions with respect to boilers 10 and with those that got, you know, those three**  **11 other recommendations. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you can do**  **13 parts, right? I mean, if they don't come up 14 with a whole verification but they all agree**  **15 on at least these parts of it, you can do 16 parts, right?**  **17 MR. EISNER: Yes, we can recommend 18 parts. And if nobody can agree, if there's 25**  **19 different positions on other parts, then it 20 would essentially be left to DOE based on what**  **21 it's learned in these meetings, including any 22 future meetings where more information is** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 229**  **1 exchanged, what to do with the parts, the 2 remaining parts.**  **3 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with 4 AHRI. Is it DOE's intention to, if there's no**  **5 consensus, to move ahead with a rulemaking? 6 If it --**  **7 MR. EISNER: Again -- are you 8 asking whether they'll go ahead with**  **9 everything but verification or whether they'll 10 do a separate rulemaking also on verification?**  **11 MR. AMRANE: Yes, I'm talking about 12 that. I mean, whether you would do a rule on**  **13 verification if there's no consensus on what 14 the --**  **15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we'll have 16 to see how close it gets. I mean, definitely,**  **17 if there's consensus on some but not all, the 18 some or the all shouldn't prevent the some,**  **19 right? But I think that's something Laura and 20 I would have to, like, talk about, brief our**  **21 management, see what they wanted to do, look 22 at all the different viewpoints how far apart** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 230**  **1 things really are. 2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers.**  **3 I did provide a document this morning to DOE 4 that contains a summary document of the areas**  **5 where there was unanimous agreement, some 6 where there was close agreement, the positions**  **7 were not that far off, and then the two or 8 three areas where there was polarization.**  **9 MS. MEYERS: Can I get a copy of 10 it? I hadn't seen that. I don't know if I**  **11 agree with it -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: I had asked Jack to**  **13 make copies earlier. Any idea where they 14 ended up?**  **15 MR. EISNER: Well, again, they 16 could email it again. And we did ask for it**  **17 to be circulated before lunch, if they don't 18 have the original. You got it, and I can**  **19 email it again. 20 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know if they**  **21 emailed it. They printed it. 22 MR. EISNER: There was a print --** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 231**  **1 no, I meant he emailed it to somebody to 2 print.**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: No, he put it on his 4 thumb drive. Oh, you did email it?**  **5 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, 6 PVI. Let me be sure that I have made no**  **7 representations that this reflects anything 8 other than the work that Jeff Kleiss and I did**  **9 and prepared what we saw as the areas of 10 agreement, the areas of disagreement. We went**  **11 through each of these items and went around 12 the room to ask if there was agreement, and we**  **13 just finished it this morning, gave it to DOE 14 to make copies to distribute, so there's not**  **15 been any effort to withhold the information. 16 MR. EISNER: And one of the things**  **17 I wanted to do after we finish what to say in 18 the report, to the extent that we have time**  **19 remaining this afternoon before people have to 20 start leaving, is to start with boilers, go**  **21 through that list to see how close we are, to 22 see whether there are good opportunities to** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 232**  **1 start working on compromises or work out 2 language that's acceptable to everybody.**  **3 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers, PVI. I 4 do want to state that, from the group's**  **5 perspective, we were looking at boilers and 6 water heaters. I haven't corrected everybody**  **7 that says just boilers, but, since that's the 8 group that we had, I do want to make clear**  **9 that it's both of those we're talking about, 10 not just boilers.**  **11 MR. EISNER: Any other general 12 comments? All right. Let me ask you what**  **13 kind of points would you like to make to ASRAC 14 about the report we're going to submit? The**  **15 report will be the slides we've all worked on, 16 which represent, in each case, what the**  **17 decision was and whether it was unanimous or 18 whether there were dissenting votes, whatever.**  **19 When we submit that report, what 20 would you like to say to ASRAC about, number**  **21 one, what we've worked out up to verification 22 and about the need to take more time on** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 233**  **1 verification? And somebody, I hope, is going 2 to be able to type this up.**  **3 MS. DANE: I think, from a CRE 4 perspective, I think that we're all**  **5 communicating quite well and we're able to 6 come to some sort of middle ground on our**  **7 differences and pop them all out. So I have 8 a little bit higher, positive spin on what CRE**  **9 is doing. 10 MR. EISNER: All I was going to**  **11 add is, let's be specific about whether we're 12 making comments on everything but verification**  **13 and verification, so we can separate the 14 bullets.**  **15 MS. DANE: Okay. We are midway 16 through the process of verification. Wouldn't**  **17 you say that's a fair assessment? Yes, I 18 think that's what we're discussing now is**  **19 verification. 20 MR. EISNER: All right. The other**  **21 two groups? We've heard Frank's. You may 22 want to give us some words to put up there.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 234**  **1 Again, this doesn't necessarily reflect 2 everybody's views, but we can modify these for**  **3 what we can put up there right now. 4 MR. MYERS: I actually don't want**  **5 to have this reflect that there are no 6 possibilities. It's just that, up to this**  **7 point, there's been no position of compromise 8 and, without compromise, negotiations are**  **9 difficult, if not impossible. 10 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,**  **11 Lochinvar. I would say there are some areas 12 of consensus, but there are significant areas**  **13 where we still have disagreement. 14 MR. EISNER: HVAC?**  **15 MS. HOOTMAN: I think we've added 16 really good foundation. I think we're**  **17 probably three-quarters of the way through. 18 We just had some details to lie down. I'm**  **19 sure we can meet by conference call somewhere 20 in between and may even have a construct by**  **21 the next meeting. 22 MR. DOPPEL: I'm trying to put** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 235**  **1 together a simple OM for HVAC. 2 MR. EISNER: You're trying to put**  **3 together a -- 4 MR. DOPPEL: A simple operations**  **5 manual with more details. 6 MR. EISNER: They're putting**  **7 together a simple operations manual. 8 MR. DOPPEL: HVAC is working on a**  **9 simple OM with more details than the original 10 bullets.**  **11 MR. EISNER: Okay. Now, in 12 addition to this status on these three, what**  **13 else would you want to say about verification, 14 about whether we should continue, why you**  **15 think we should or should not continue, 16 anything along those lines?**  **17 MR. SACHS: My feeling is -- this 18 is Harvey. My feeling is that the**  **19 alternatives to continuing are worse. 20 MR. EISNER: Oh, the alternatives**  **21 to not continuing. Everybody hear Harvey's 22 comment?** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 236**  **1 MR. SACHS: I support continuing 2 this process to try to converge.**  **3 MR. EISNER: Do others have 4 thoughts about this? Again, it doesn't all**  **5 have to be on the likelihood of success. 6 MR. STANONIK: Okay. I missed the**  **7 meeting on Monday, and, as I understand it, 8 that's when boiler verification became**  **9 boiler/water heater verification. And I see 10 those as very different markets, and I would**  **11 actually like to ask the working group to 12 consider breaking them apart.**  **13 MR. EISNER: You think that might 14 lead to --**  **15 MR. DOPPEL: Well, that's HVAC's 16 recommendation that it be three separate**  **17 verification programs. 18 MR. WHITWELL: But I think Frank**  **19 is saying is maybe it should be four. 20 MR. STANONIK: Well, I'm just**  **21 saying the discussion of what might be 22 determined for verification of water heaters** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 237**  **1 should be separate from the discussion on 2 boilers. You don't have an entire industry of**  **3 water heaters in the tens of millions of BTUs 4 as the boilers have to deal with and the ABMA.**  **5 It's a whole different characteristic. 6 MS. BARHYDT: I think that the**  **7 grouping was somewhat of a reflection of the 8 interest of the working group members, that**  **9 they had interest in those categories together 10 and so they thought, well, I can't be two**  **11 places at once, so let's all meet in a room 12 together. I don't think it was necessarily**  **13 that they had to be treated the same. 14 MR. STANONIK: My understanding is**  **15 that there would be a verification solution 16 covering both, the same.**  **17 MR. EISNER: No. 18 MS. MEYERS: I think the**  **19 characterization of there being no willingness 20 to compromise is, you know, when 98 percent of**  **21 the conversation was on boilers, then, you 22 know, we didn't even really, probably 99.5** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 238**  **1 percent of the conversation was on boilers. 2 And nothing, you know, we were all in the same**  **3 room, even most of us doing both products. 4 Again, I don't agree with this paper that was**  **5 provided, too. 6 MR. MYERS: Say that again,**  **7 please. 8 MS. MEYERS: I said I don't agree**  **9 with that because this characterizes the 10 conversation inaccurately, in my opinion. It**  **11 was provided to DOE, and I just want that on 12 the record.**  **13 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie 14 with Cleaver-Brooks. I just had a question to**  **15 your suggestion about splitting those. Would 16 your opinions be different about the**  **17 verification frequency for those two groups? 18 MR. STANONIK: Well, possibly,**  **19 possibly. But as a, to me, a clear 20 difference, okay. Quite frankly, when I start**  **21 talking about a 20, 30, 40 million BTU 22 low-pressure space-heating boiler, okay, the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 239**  **1 question of what verification is necessary, if 2 any and if any become part of the discussion,**  **3 if we're talking about water heaters, my own 4 opinion, I'm not ready to add if any, I would**  **5 say, if we're talking water heater product. 6 But the ones I'm familiar with and what I**  **7 believe is the general range of the market, 8 there should be verification. It's my**  **9 opinion. 10 MR. MOLVIE: It sounds to me like**  **11 it would be a good idea to separate those two 12 apart.**  **13 MR. EISNER: But for the purposes 14 of some simple bullets now to tell to ASRAC**  **15 why we need more time, if that's what you want 16 to say, should we add something after with**  **17 significant agreement something about, if 18 looked at as separate groups, there may be**  **19 more likelihood of success either on both of 20 them or at least in one area? Is that a**  **21 better way to put it -- I'm sorry. Say that 22 again.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 240**  **1 MR. AMRANE: Just there'd be a 2 better likelihood of success.**  **3 MR. EISNER: All right. 4 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers.**  **5 I would characterize it as another 6 opportunity. I don't know that it would be**  **7 any more successful, but it is another 8 opportunity.**  **9 MR. EISNER: And I think we may 10 get a better sense, to the extent we have time**  **11 this afternoon to look at this sheet of paper. 12 Remember, this is something that I pushed**  **13 Frank to put together, so we had some bullets 14 so we could all start talking about it.**  **15 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with 16 AHRI. There are other products that this**  **17 group covers that were not even discussed, 18 SPVU's, computer room air conditioners, and I**  **19 guess what the intent of DOE, how are we going 20 to be addressing those products?**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: Was it the intent of 22 the HVAC group to only be covering small,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 241**  **1 large, and very large unitary? 2 MS. HOOTMAN: No, DRF.**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. DRF was 4 included. Were SPVUs --**  **5 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, could we have 6 a conference call, and that's what I'd like to**  **7 do, with AHRI is we could cover those issues 8 --**  **9 MR. AMRANE: That's what I'm 10 saying. I think we need someone to bring all**  **11 the folks into this discussion, which we 12 haven't done so far. So as far as maybe the**  **13 HVAC for now, it's limited to VRF and to large 14 unitary. And then maybe, by the next meeting,**  **15 we could -- 16 MR. STANONIK: You could say**  **17 current concepts are based on -- what did you 18 say? Based on AC equipment --**  **19 MR. AMRANE: Unitary, small, large 20 --**  **21 MR. STANONIK: Yes, I mean, you 22 just identified the products we really have** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 242**  **1 been talking about, in terms of what to 2 develop. And then note it's going to at least**  **3 be, let's say, the expansion of the products 4 needs to be addressed.**  **5 MR. WHITWELL: But perhaps we want 6 to include in there that the current concept**  **7 is based on, essentially, continuing what we 8 have with AHRI and also offering an**  **9 alternative, having an alternative DABP, and 10 I think that would make these other, make the**  **11 ASRAC group and these other products, people 12 in these other product groups feel more**  **13 comfortable. 14 MR. STARR: I have a question.**  **15 This is Louis Starr with NEEA. On the crack 16 side, I'm wondering if the equipment**  **17 manufacturers here are, I think, large ones 18 that aren't really represented here who I**  **19 believe are -- are they AHRI members? 20 MR. AMRANE: Yes, AHRI members and**  **21 we are talking to them. They're not here, 22 unfortunately, but we're talking to them** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 243**  

### 1 separately. There will be a proposal from **2 them. 3 MR. STARR: Because that could**  **4 create a lot of comments if they -- 5 MR. AMRANE: Absolutely. And**  **6 that's why I'd say cracks will be bigger than**
**7 -- 8 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other**  **9 comments, other additions to the three that 10 are up here right now? Changes? Any general**  **11 points that you want to make about 12 verification?**  **13 MR. BALLO: I think that was the 14 second slide that we had started on with**  **15 Harvey's point about continuing the 16 negotiations will be better than anything**  **17 we'll get otherwise. 18 MR. EISNER: Do you want to add**  **19 that thought about better than the 20 alternatives, not negotiating?**  **21 MR. SACHS: It's better than the 22 alternative of leaving it to DOE. Let me** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 244**  **1 re-spin this. Continuing the discussions 2 appears to be the best available alternative.**  **3 Is that okay, Ashley? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sounds great.**  **5 MR. SACHS: Thanks. 6 MR. STANONIK: If you think about**  **7 it practically, okay, if you don't do this, 8 then the other option is the DOE starts to**  **9 develop the rule, and we go through the normal 10 DOE rulemaking process, which has its benefits**  **11 and problems and everything else. And I think 12 the working group opinion, this is a better**  **13 approach to your own kind of working group. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Harvey, what did you**  **15 say again? 16 MR. EISNER: It's the best**  **17 alternative to -- 18 MR. STARR: I was going to say do**  **19 all the boiler and water heater people agree 20 with that? I mean, I'm wondering, with that**  **21 point, that continuing the negotiation is the 22 best available option? I mean, I'm wondering** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 245**  **1 -- 2 MR. KLEISS: Yes.**  **3 MR. STARR: Okay. I was just 4 curious because if not everybody doesn't think**  **5 that, then it doesn't really -- 6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers at**  **7 PVI. If there is no willingness to negotiate, 8 just a dictate, do this or do nothing, then I**  **9 would much prefer to have DOE do it on a 10 regular rulemaking. I think they're hearing**  **11 all sides of the issue, and I'm still hopeful 12 that there will be some negotiation taking**  **13 place on these points. We've agreed on some. 14 If not, then, no, as it stands right now, I**  **15 think I would probably prefer to take what 16 we've got that we agree on and let DOE take**  **17 care of the rest on a regular rulemaking. 18 MS. MEYERS: I haven't heard that**  **19 same sentiment from actual working group 20 members.**  **21 MR. EISNER: Could you repeat 22 that? I couldn't --** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 246**  

### 1 MS. MEYERS: I said I have not **2 heard that same sentiment from working group 3 members.**  **4 MR. EISNER: I guess I'd ask you, 5 Frank, are you saying that, unless people are**  **6 going to commit and they all say they want to 7 come back, is there a disadvantage to having**  **8 at least more two more days, not saying it 9 goes on forever but two more days to see if**  **10 agreements can be worked out? If nothing 11 else, there might be more information made**  **12 available to DOE. 13 MR. MYERS: I certainly intend to**  **14 be here. 15 MR. EISNER: So would you change**  **16 any of the two bullets? Do you want to add 17 "at the present time" to the second bullet?**  **18 MR. MYERS: I'm okay with it. I 19 think it's in the weeds.**  **20 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other 21 comments, other things that you would want to**  **22 say ASRAC about why they should --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 247**  **1 MR. BAUMAN: I think, as a group, 2 going back to when we were talking about**  **3 verification and the basic question of 4 verification, I think we had discussed, and it**  **5 might be useful to clarify for ASRAC, we've 6 discussed and I think we've concluded maybe**  **7 not for every product but that a verification 8 program is needed, you know, because one basic**  **9 question would be should we even be concerned 10 about verification, and I think we've**  **11 discussed that a couple of times where we've 12 said yes. I mean, industry, for policing**  **13 ourselves or whatever, we need to -- 14 MR. EISNER: That's an important**  **15 point. Does anybody disagree with it? Let me 16 put it a little bit more subtly. If you all**  **17 agree with it, do you still question whether 18 some of the other interests that you represent**  **19 might not agree with it and you want to say 20 that?**  **21 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie 22 with Cleaver-Brooks. I feel fairly certain** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 248**  **1 that the boiler industry, the segment of the 2 boiler industry that Jeff and I represent,**  **3 there would probably be a number of them that 4 would be opposed to a verification program at**  **5 any level and most certainly would want to see 6 not a complete, verification level that's**  **7 across, or program that's across the board. 8 They'd want to see something that's limited in**  **9 size. 10 So we would not agree, I don't**  **11 think, with the statement that a verification 12 program is needed. That's not a general**  **13 consensus. 14 MR. KLEISS: Yes, I don't like**  **15 being singled out that way. 16 MR. EISNER: Do you want to keep**  **17 it as simple as there is general, but not 18 unanimous, consensus of all of the affected**  **19 interests in support of the need for a 20 verification program?**  **21 MR. MYERS: I would like that much 22 better.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 249**  **1 MR. EISNER: Is that okay with 2 others?**  **3 MR. BAUMAN: Yes, I think, for CRE 4 again, I believe that we're expecting there's**  **5 going to be negative comments about that that 6 will be raised later that any verification**  **7 program is burdensome. But I think the 8 consensus of the working group is that a**  **9 verification program is needed. 10 MR. EISNER: And don't single out**  **11 boilers in any way. 12 MR. KLEISS: Well, I'll say, Pete**  **13 and Geoff, it helps to convey things to 14 constituents and members of your organization**  **15 that challenge testing is also a verification 16 --**  **17 MR. HALLEY: Yes, I'm not -- 18 MR. KLEISS: No, you don't, so, in**  **19 a sense, there is still verification for the 20 large boilers.**  **21 MR. HALLEY: From what I saw, the 22 AHRI members were, you know, more prone to** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 250**  **1 verification testing for many reasons. 2 MR. EISNER: Now, I heard you say**  **3 that you were willing to put up here that the 4 working group is unanimous on the need for a**  **5 verification program, or are you uncomfortable 6 with that?**  **7 MR. MOLVIE: It's not the case. 8 MR. EISNER: It's not the case.**  **9 Okay. It says there may not be general 10 support from industry outside of the working**  **11 group, it should be the other way around. 12 There will be general support, but there will**  **13 be some objections. 14 MR. NESHAN: No, there's no**  **15 general agreement outside this group. As a 16 matter of fact, they're against verification.**  **17 MR. EISNER: You're saying most of 18 the people, subject to --**  **19 MR. NESHAN: I can only speak on 20 behalf of CRE, not on behalf of the rest.**  **21 MS. DANE: I don't believe that's 22 a true statement, that all of CRE that's not** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 251**  **1 in this room is against that. 2 MR. NESHAN: I said in general. I**  **3 didn't say all. 4 MR. EISNER: Well, "general"**  **5 implies to me, it may not to you, we're 6 talking something more than a majority of the**  **7 people that would be affected by this rule 8 would be against verification testing.**  **9 MS. DANE: When we, when we spoke 10 about verification testing, one of the things**  **11 we discussed and I presented was that Laura 12 had made the statement that she envisioned a**  **13 manufacturer type-based verification program. 14 And so, therefore, I think that there's some**  **15 general support or it's not as dark as it 16 sounds.**  **17 MR. BAUMAN: I think, too, from 18 the meetings at AHRI, and I understand your**  **19 concerns from the feedback we've heard, and 20 we've heard some at the AHRI meetings and**  **21 things like that, I don't think it's, we may 22 have different impressions, it's not a** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 252**  **1 significant -- I mean, to me, if we're saying 2 that, we're not doing our jobs right because**  **3 if there's going to be a significant lack of 4 support, we're not representing our industry**  **5 right. I think, honestly, in the way that I'm 6 representing the CRE industry, the majority,**  **7 when I say that, it's not going to be, it's 8 not going to be more people saying no for CRE**  **9 to say some type of verification program, 10 again, in our case is minimal burden as**  **11 possible, but that some verification program 12 is needed and it's not helpful to our industry**  **13 to make sure, as an industry, everybody is 14 staying honest.**  **15 MR. EISNER: Frank? 16 MR. STANONIK: I would suggest,**  **17 rather than trying to characterize what you 18 believe will be the opposition and, in the**  **19 wider basis, maybe just say consensus but not 20 unanimous from working group members that a**  **21 verification program is needed, working group 22 at this time does not have enough information** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 253**  **1 to predict the opinion of the whole industry. 2 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr,**  **3 NEEA. Why can't, on the verification program, 4 we split that out based upon the classes of**  **5 equipment or the different industries? 6 Because it sounds like, with commercial AC,**  **7 they definitely want a verification program, 8 but they're not clear what that is, whether**  **9 it's, you know -- but it sounds like the 10 boiler guys are not or at least some of them**  **11 are definitely not interested in it. 12 So it definitely splits out**  **13 depending on what you make. I think the 14 viewpoints of verification is based upon the**  **15 kind of equipment you make, and it's different 16 in each one of those classes.**  **17 MR. EISNER: Say that again. 18 MR. STARR: He didn't want to be**  **19 called out, but it is what it is. 20 MR. EISNER: Would others agree**  **21 with that approach, breaking it down into the 22 three major categories we've got? Okay. We** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 254**  **1 were just talking about -- 2 MR. STANONIK: The debate is not**  **3 whether there needs to be a verification 4 program for boilers. The debate is whether**  **5 some boilers need to have a verification 6 program. I would venture that, at the end of**  **7 the day, there will be a verification program 8 for boilers. It may not encompass the entire**  **9 market, but there will be a verification 10 program for boilers.**  **11 MR. STARR: Or maybe the scope of 12 verification.**  **13 MR. BAUMAN: I have a bit of an 14 issue, too, with the last line being a**  **15 negative statement. Again, to me, that sounds 16 like we're not doing our job right. If we**  **17 haven't got enough information to predict, 18 again, we're supposed to be representing our**  **19 industry and either wording that in a way that 20 says we recognize there may be, you know,**  **21 remaining concerns, but I'm just hesitant to 22 send something to ASRAC to say we're not doing** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 255**  **1 this, we didn't get enough information here, 2 versus, you know, yes, we had to listen to**  **3 them and we're hearing industry and we know 4 there may be some negative voices out there.**  **5 MR. EISNER: To go back to the 6 statement that was last up there that Laura**  **7 took down, what about saying, in general, we 8 can do it by the three categories, but, in**  **9 general we expect some opposition. That 10 doesn't say how much, it just says some**  **11 opposition. 12 MS. DANE: I think we do, Jeff,**  **13 expect there to be some disagreement. But, 14 again, you're talking about you're**  **15 representing them through AHRI, and the 16 majority of the people I'm speaking to are not**  **17 members of AHRI, they're members of NAFEM. 18 And so there's two different, you know -- I**  **19 know you run the NAFEM call. 20 MR. BAUMAN: And I didn't hear a**  **21 lot of negative voices of people saying, no, 22 there shouldn't be any verification, but I** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 256**  **1 haven't heard people say that -- because, 2 again, not to -- the other side of this is DOE**  **3 goes out and does their own. You know, if you 4 want to do it ten percent or something, they**  **5 couldn't be, or I don't think anybody, in 6 looking at both sides, as an industry, no, we**  **7 may not want ten percent, but we recognize 8 that something is needed for, something is**  **9 needed. And I didn't hear those voices with 10 people saying that, no, we should use zero.**  **11 I think there was a reasonableness 12 there on both calls. I was on the AHRI call**  **13 and the NAFEM call, and both of those, I think 14 the voices that were either quiet, and we**  **15 asked people, you know, to speak up and we 16 tried to get that response back and draw**  **17 people out, and I didn't hear a lot of 18 negative. There were some voices, but it was**  **19 not the overly negative on the idea of any 20 verification program, in my viewpoint, what I**  **21 heard on both those calls. 22 MR. EISNER: How about the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 257**  **1 language Laura has put up there? 2 MR. STANONIK: I've got one more**  **3 option. First of all, I'd prefer you start 4 with a positive statement, "There is a**  **5 consensus." But the second sentence could be, 6 "The working group recognizes that this**  **7 recommendation will not be supported by all 8 companies in all industries."**  **9 MR. EISNER: Okay. 10 MR. HURST: Isn't it implied that**  **11 there's some opposition? I mean, can't you 12 just leave it? I mean, it's not unanimous,**  **13 so, therefore, you don't agree on something, 14 right?**  **15 MR. EISNER: Well, the message I'm 16 hearing is that there might be more agreement**  **17 here than there would be in the affected 18 industry, but maybe I'm not hearing you**  **19 correctly. The people you represent you 20 realize maybe have more opposition than there**  **21 is in this room. And maybe that's because you 22 hear each other talk about things; and,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 258**  **1 therefore, you understand the importance, even 2 though you may not like it. And I don't know.**  **3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 4 I think it depends on how you're attempting to**  **5 characterize it. If you're looking at 6 percentages, the large percentages of the**  **7 affected industries, with the exception of 8 what you've talked about that are not around**  **9 the table, I think are probably going to be 10 satisfied with the work that comes out of this**  **11 group. But we recognize that everybody is not 12 going to be happy. Everybody is not happy**  **13 with, there's always somebody that's not 14 happy. But on a percentage basis, for**  **15 example, in HVAC, I've heard the number, 16 roughly, 90 percent of industry is represented**  **17 here. So if everybody not here didn't like 18 it, you still have 90 percent approval. And**  **19 I'm not saying that everybody not here 20 wouldn't like it.**  **21 So I think the majority statement 22 here, the pejorative is just what you've got** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 259**  **1 up here. There's consensus here, and I think 2 we probably, in general, this statement**  **3 reflects what we would expect to see in the 4 public, in the balance of the industry.**  **5 MR. EISNER: Should we leave it 6 the way it is?**  **7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I 8 certainly don't have a real strong opinion,**  **9 but I wonder if this would be more accurate if 10 there was a second, a final clause added that**  **11 basically says the concerns about verification 12 programs are concentrated in certain**  **13 subclasses in certain products. So we're 14 differentiating it. There's more reservation**  **15 about large boilers than there is about HVAC. 16 MR. EISNER: Do people want to add**  **17 something like that? I've never seen this 18 group so quiet.**  **19 MR. STARR: I think something 20 along those lines is a good idea.**  **21 MR. EISNER: Is what? 22 MR. STARR: I said I think** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 260**  **1 something along Harvey's line of thought is a 2 good idea. I think it's important to**  **3 distinguish that. It makes it sounds like 4 it's across all the classes of equipment, and**  **5 I think it seems to be in certain classes it's 6 more of a concern.**  **7 MR. SACHS: I think it's only 8 fair, and maybe it doesn't have to be done in**  **9 writing, to warn ASRAC, as it's going up the 10 chain..**  **11 MR. EISNER: Is everybody okay 12 with the Harvey sentence? Okay. Any other**  **13 bullets that you want to add? Any other 14 points that you want to make on verification?**  **15 MR. BALLO: Do we need to indicate 16 anything about our anticipated time line for**  **17 finishing that we do -- 18 MR. EISNER: Good point. Do we**  **19 want to at least go through September? Should 20 we say we have one more meeting scheduled in**  **21 mid September, and we believe we can resolve 22 it by then?** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 261**  **1 MR. BALLO: Do we actually believe 2 that?**  **3 MR. EISNER: Well, I'm trying to 4 get everybody to say yes. Do you believe we**  **5 can, or do you think we're going to need more 6 time? Because it's going to be hard to**  **7 schedule a time, you know, after September 8 15th because of people's availability.**  **9 MR. HURST: Based on our joint 10 record, I would say we would probably have to**  **11 have another meeting after the middle of 12 September.**  **13 MR. EISNER: Others agree? Do we 14 want to tell ASRAC we're going to meet in mid**  **15 September and may have to schedule another 16 meeting after that?**  **17 MR. HURST: We have an alternate 18 date of the 26th.**  **19 MR. EISNER: We had one day on the 20 26th, but nobody could meet before or after.**  **21 It was just a one-day meeting. And as I 22 recall, at least one person at this table** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 262**  **1 couldn't make it at all in October and she was 2 necessary. Do we want to set a date for the**  **3 end of October, or dates, plural? 4 MS. DANE: We could maybe do that**  **5 and continue to work on our breakout groups in 6 a month in between so that we actually have**  **7 things to bring and speed up the process. 8 MR. EISNER: I think that's a good**  **9 point because the breakout groups have worked 10 very, very well on this issue.**  **11 MR. STARR: Yes, that's my 12 thought, too, that it sounds like the**  **13 equipment classes where they're having some of 14 the questions, it might be helpful to try to**  **15 get some of those resolutions to figure out if 16 there's, to get closer to resolution before**  **17 they bring a bigger group to it. 18 MR. EISNER: Do you want to say**  **19 something, we'll continue working in the 20 product groups between meetings? What do we**  **21 want to say about a future meeting? 22 MS. DANE: Does ASRAC have a** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 263**  

### 1 meeting date set after September 12th, or are **2 they doing it the same way we are, they're 3 just kind of moving along? Because, I mean,**  **4 that would determine where we have our next 5 meeting, right?**  **6 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know if 7 there's, I don't know what ASRAC's meeting**  **8 schedule is. 9 MS. DANE: Okay.**  **10 MR. MYERS: The mid September 11 meeting we're talking about is the 11 - 12?**  **12 MS. DANE: I don't know if I'm 13 willing to continue meetings indefinitely. I**  **14 do have a full-time job. I think they would 15 like me to spend time in Texas.**  **16 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 17 If that is defined as meet in mid September,**  **18 work in between, have working group 19 teleconferences, and then have a face-to-face**  **20 sometime in October, yes. 21 MR. EISNER: Do we want to say**  **22 continue meetings through October or simply**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 264**  

### 1 say we believe that, right now we believe we **2 can complete the negotiations by mid October? 3 MS. BARHYDT: Is Ron Shebik here?**  **4 MR. SHEBIK: Yes, I'm here. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. We've got**  **6 you. Go ahead, Ron. 7 MR. SHEBIK: I'm sorry. What was**  **8 the question? 9 MS. BARHYDT: I was told you**  **10 wanted to say something. 11 MR. SHEBIK: Oh, well, I think it**  **12 already got answered, though. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.**  **14 MR. SHEBIK: They were talking 15 about CRE members. Yes, there's two that are**  **16 vocal that were not, that would probably 17 oppose any kind of verification program, and**  **18 there are two or three others that sort of 19 spoke up but didn't want to say too much.**  **20 MR. SACHS: Ron? 21 MR. SHEBIK: Yes.**  **22 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey with a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 265**  **1 question for the CRE group in general. I've 2 heard objections to verification on financial**  **3 grounds for smaller manufacturers. Are there 4 additional substantive reservations about a**  **5 verification program for CRE? 6 MR. SHEBIK: No, no. The two that**  **7 were vocal about it were more representative 8 of smaller companies, and they thought that**  **9 the -- again, the discussion we had a couple 10 of days ago where the whole idea of a**  **11 verification was never in the original 12 proposal, and they didn't think it was**  **13 necessary. 14 MR. SACHS: Okay, thank you.**  **15 MR. EISNER: Okay. Let's look at 16 that last sentence and see what date you want**  **17 to put in. Working group expects to be able 18 to complete a proposal for verification**  **19 testing by? 20 MR. MYERS: 21 - 22 or 28 - 29 of**  **21 October. 22 MR. EISNER: I think it would help** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 266**  **1 to find out when the next ASRAC meeting was. 2 So why don't we leave that blank for now and**  **3 go on to everything but verification testing 4 and what we want to say about that?**  **5 MR. MYERS: I think it's probably 6 worthwhile to at least get some dates out for**  **7 people to look at their calendar. I know that 8 time of year can really get really full.**  **9 MR. EISNER: All right. Why don't 10 we wait to hear from Ashley, and she can find**  **11 out when the next ASRAC meeting is. Let's 12 focus on a new slide --**  **13 MS. HOOTMAN: You're saying we're 14 not doing September 26?**  **15 MR. EISNER: Well, we can still 16 talk about that. Let's see what we get for an**  **17 ASRAC date. My recollection, Jill, is it 18 would be a one-day meeting and the question is**  **19 whether everybody wants to commit for a 20 one-day meeting because I don't think people**  **21 had days open before and after. 22 Do we want to talk again about** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 267**  **1 meeting on the 26th? Okay. 2 MR. MYERS: I'm sure that's enough**  **3 time for the working groups to get their work 4 done.**  **5 MR. EISNER: Let's hold off on 6 this issue until we hear about the next ASRAC**  **7 meeting and see how important it is. 8 Let's go to everything but**  **9 verification, basically the certification 10 stuff. What bullets do we want to say about**  **11 the report we're submitting with all of our 12 recommendations on that subject? What points**  **13 would you make in terms of the product we're 14 sending them?**  **15 MR. KLEISS: I'm sorry. Bullets 16 on what?**  **17 MR. EISNER: We're going to be 18 sending them about --**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, I like that even 20 better.**  **21 MR. EISNER: I thought you had 22 something better to put up here.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 268**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: I put best proposal 2 ever, and he said couldn't have done it**  **3 without DOE. 4 MR. EISNER: Okay.**  **5 MS. BARHYDT: What do you want to 6 tell ASRAC about what we're actually sending**  **7 forward? 8 MR. EISNER: Your recommendations.**  **9 MR. SACHS: Please find enclosed 10 our recommendations.**  **11 MR. EISNER: That can be it. 12 MS. DANE: Now, but how does this**  **13 affect the certification date? Are we still 14 assuming we're going to be able to finish the**  **15 list with the dates still being in place for 16 certification start after the 31st of**  **17 December, or did that -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: So the certification**  **19 proposal was scheduled, that we were putting 20 forward was that if DOE completes AEDM rule,**  **21 as expected, then -- well, actually, I think 22 the way we worded it was the time lines are** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 269**  **1 the number of months after DOE issues a final 2 rule on the AEDM --**  **3 MS. DANE: Unless there was 4 significant change in the certification**  **5 practice? 6 MS. BARHYDT: Unless there was a**  **7 real significant change in the certification 8 rule, in which case then the time lines would**  **9 start based on the certification -- 10 MS. DANE: Did we determine what**  **11 significant means? 12 MS. BARHYDT: I believe what we**  **13 said was that we would want ASRAC to send it 14 back to the working group so that the working**  **15 group could determine if it was significant or 16 not.**  **17 MR. EISNER: Assuming ASRAC makes 18 a change.**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, no, so I thought 20 what we discussed was that when we get all the**  **21 comments in, that those comments will come 22 back through.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 270**  **1 MR. EISNER: So you're saying the 2 final rule stage --**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: At the final rule 4 stage, that we were requesting that ASRAC send**  **5 it back to the working group. 6 MR. EISNER: If significant**  **7 changes are made that could affect the time 8 line.**  **9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 10 MS. DANE: So if we defined enough**  **11 of -- I guess I'll ask the working group have 12 we defined enough in the verification program**  **13 in the certification basic model group and 14 some of the other things, have we determined**  **15 those important key things? Because we if we 16 don't have those, even if we get to October**  **17 and we're expected to start, I just want to 18 make sure that all the pieces are in place for**  **19 everybody to start doing what it is they're 20 going to do.**  **21 MR. HON: I think we're missing 22 one element.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 271**  **1 MS. DANE: Let's see if Charlie 2 explains it better than me.**  **3 MR. HON: I don't think we have 4 defined basic models well enough to really pin**  **5 down certain items. In some areas, we have. 6 Other areas, I don't think we have.**  **7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, we did. 8 MR. HON: If we voted on them,**  **9 then everyone considers them clear enough. 10 MR. AMRANE: I mean, if you want**  **11 to revisit some . . . 12 MR. HON: I'd rather not.**  **13 MR. BAUMAN: So we voted on this, 14 on the deadlines for certification.**  **15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 16 MR. BAUMAN: My impression of what**  **17 we talked about yesterday was that that would 18 be not recommended to go anywhere until the**  **19 completion of this, the work of this working 20 group and ASRAC, whatever; is that correct?**  **21 Because I know Karim, as we have raised a 22 concern about -- and I would say, as far as** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 272**  **1 the working group reports to DOE, that one of 2 the things that I would want to note is that**  **3 there is significant concern that extensions 4 for the deadline are published as soon as**  **5 possible. I mean, I think I was hearing, in 6 my mind, DOE wanting to, just for lack of a**  **7 better term, delay that until this working 8 group completes and everything else is**  **9 completed versus saying that-- 10 MS. BARHYDT: Wait. What? I**  **11 heard DOE delay, and that can't possibly be 12 the right answer.**  **13 MR. WHITWELL: I think the 14 discussion was around the basic model group**  **15 definition for commercial HVAC and the motors, 16 right?**  **17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 18 MR. WHITWELL: And so my question**  **19 is do we need to go back and vote? We had 20 those on hold until we talked about the basic**  **21 models, resolved the basic model definition. 22 MS. BARHYDT: We did vote.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 273**  **1 MR. WHITWELL: We did vote about 2 the motors. Did we vote to take those --**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: We went back and we 4 did the vote on the dates, as well.**  **5 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 6 MR. AMRANE: Just going with that,**  **7 Charlie, I think, to second what Jeff is 8 saying, I think what he's saying is what I**  **9 said, as well, is that we understand that we 10 voted on those dates and it's great. But at**  **11 the same time, I think we need to send a 12 signal to stakeholders that this December 31st**  **13 date is not going to hold. I guess we agree 14 that eventually its going to be moved by 18**  **15 months, by 12 months, by -- I don't know. 16 And you're right. I'm not sure if**  **17 you're limited in what you can do, but I think 18 it's very important here that somehow --**  **19 otherwise, people are going to start asking 20 you, asking us, asking everybody what am I**  **21 going to do, what do I need to do, and what 22 should we respond?** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 274**  **1 MR. EISNER: Well, do you want to 2 have a bullet in the document saying the**  **3 importance of very timely action on this sort 4 of compliance date?**  **5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, I think Karim 6 is right because there are manufacturers that**  **7 are not here and they're going to ask 8 questions. What do we say? Do we tell them**  **9 it will be delayed? Do we tell them maybe it 10 will be delayed?**  **11 MR. STARR: That's what I'd tell 12 them.**  **13 MR. WHITWELL: So get to work. 14 MR. EISNER: What I hear Laura**  **15 saying is no one, at least at the level of the 16 people who are here, can give you a definitive**  **17 answer to that. There's too many people who 18 play a role in it.**  **19 But I think everybody who is here 20 are supposed to be here in good faith, and one**  **21 of the things that has to happen is you guys 22 be given as much time as possible to make** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 275**  **1 changes that those dates are going to go out 2 of effect or stay in effect. I think**  **3 everybody understands that. I don't know that 4 people -- everybody gets the message in DOE;**  **5 that's clear to me. And they're doing 6 everything they can to get that date adjusted** 
**7 -- 8 MR. BAUMAN: Even those around the**  **9 table, Neil, that are going back and reporting 10 to our company and saying, well, DOE is going**  **11 to extend the deadline, don't get upset about 12 it, until they see that somewhere in writing**  **13 -- 14 MR. EISNER: I understand --**  **15 MR. BAUMAN: -- and I think, as 16 part of this, we should either recommend to**  **17 ASRAC or whatever, and I think -- that's where 18 I think the DOE has occasional say in things**  **19 -- 20 MR. EISNER: Well --**  **21 MR. BAUMAN: -- in saying anything 22 about extending that deadline until everything** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 276**  **1 is done. 2 MR. EISNER: What else would you**  **3 add to what Laura has got up here, and let's 4 see if Laura can also agree to it.**  **5 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly. I 6 want to clarify one item. Are we talking**  **7 about time verification, or are we just doing 8 certification?**  **9 MR. EISNER: My understanding of 10 the way this is going to work is they're going**  **11 to start working on the certification rule as 12 soon as they get the ASRAC recommendation. If**  **13 we get agreement on verification and we get it 14 to ASRAC before they have completed drafting**  **15 the proposed rule for certification, they 16 could put the two together, if time will**  **17 permit. But if they get it too late, it will 18 be a separate rulemaking.**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: I think, 20 realistically, it will be a separate**  **21 rulemaking just because it is so important 22 that the certification move forward quickly.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 277**  **1 And so I don't want anything to hold up that 2 rule because of the importance of it moving**  **3 quickly. And verification is much more likely 4 to generate negative comments, I think. And**  **5 so I just, I think DOE's preference will be to 6 put it in a separate rule so that**  **7 certification doesn't get hung up. 8 MR. AMRANE: I think we would**  **9 agree with that. This is Karim with AHRI. 10 But anything that you can do to send a signal**  **11 that we are working on the certification rule, 12 because I know what's going to happen --**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: We're negotiating 14 and negotiating and negotiating.**  **15 MR. BAUMAN: You don't have to 16 tell ASRAC. You have to tell the other people**  **17 that aren't here as well. 18 MS. BARHYDT: They're on the**  **19 blast! 20 MR. BAUMAN: But I agree with him.**  **21 I mean, you can go back, and even reporting to 22 our managers, and saying, hey, don't get, you** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 278**  **1 know, because we're not sure about how to do 2 the reports and stuff, like, obviously,**  **3 there's no templates and all that. And, 4 again, when we're talking about deadlines,**  **5 it's a year, but some kind of reassurance to 6 those, until they see it in writing somewhere,**  **7 they're not comfortable with that. There's a 8 lot of nervous people that we're trying to**  **9 convince and they don't need to be so nervous, 10 at least the companies that I've been involved**  **11 with that would feel better if they see 12 something in writing.**  **13 MR. AMRANE: We understand that 14 your hands are tied, you don't know, you don't**  **15 have a schedule, but maybe there's a way. I 16 don't know. And let's be creative here.**  **17 MR. STANONIK: Well, I mean, I 18 want to put something up there and give you**  **19 something to chew on. I think the working 20 group should recommend to ASRAC that ASRAC**  **21 request DOE to provide public notification as 22 quickly as it can that December 31st, 2013** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 279**  **1 date will not be implemented. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Say the last part**  **3 one more time. 4 MR. STANONIK: Okay. That ASRAC**  **5 advises, I said request, DOE to provide public 6 notification that the December 31st, 2013**  **7 implementation date for certification will not 8 be implemented. That's obviously predicated**  **9 on accepting everything that's been going on 10 here, right? But, I mean, but that, I think,**  **11 is what I believe is a recommendation. And it 12 doesn't say to give them what the new dates**  **13 are. It just says we know enough right now 14 that December 31st is not going to be**  **15 implemented. 16 MR. FLY: Does DOE have any feel**  **17 for how briefly their verification rule will 18 follow the AEDM rule?**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: No. 20 MR. FLY: No? My concern is that**  **21 the dates that we put forward, which were the 22 dates for compliance to certification, that** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 280**  **1 are not tied to the certification rule. 2 MS. BARHYDT: I understand the**  **3 concern. I think the thought was -- well, 4 actually, you all are the one who came up with**  **5 the schedule. 6 MR. AMRANE: And maybe it was an**  **7 oversight on our part because, then imagine 8 that the certification would be tied up, for**  **9 a year, all those dates are linked to the AEDM 10 rulemaking and, all of a sudden, we'll have to**  **11 comply with those dates, even if the 12 certification rule is not out yet.**  **13 MR. FLY: If it doesn't come out 14 by next July, those dates are going to be a**  **15 problem because, especially those that are not 16 here or not slugging through this in great**  **17 detail are not going to want to start the 18 process until they know what the process is.**  **19 And I don't know that any of this, you know, 20 I guess it's public, in a preliminary form, if**  **21 you look at the notes of the transcript on the 22 website. But that's not something people are** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 281**  **1 going to hire people to settle down for 2 full-time jobs to work on the problem.**  **3 MR. AMRANE: Okay. This is Karim 4 with AHRI. Can we rewrite our, I guess,**  **5 language to say, you know, we tie it either to 6 the AEDM or the certification?**  **7 MR. BALLO: Could you, could you 8 establish a time frame, you know, a maximum**  **9 amount? So provided that the final rule for 10 certification is published within X amount of**  **11 time after the AEDM rule, these are the dates 12 that we would use.**  **13 MR. FLY: Like 30 days? 14 MR. WHITWELL: In theory. Maybe**  **15 that's right because we got chronics that we 16 had six months after the AEDM rule. There may**  **17 be people, manufacturers out there who are not 18 being reached and you have to give them six**  **19 months or five months or whatever the time. 20 MR. EISNER: There's a question on**  **21 the floor about whether, if I understood it 22 correctly, the dates that have been agreed to** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 282**  **1 could be modified dependent on the AEDM rule, 2 that we modify it dependent on the AEDM rule**  **3 and the certification rule being issued within 4 so many days or months of the AEDM rule.**  **5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Aren't the dates a 6 great big piece of this?**  **7 MS. BARHYDT: Of the AEDM, not the 8 --**  **9 MR. FLY: But the dates are for 10 certification.**  **11 MR. WHITWELL: Ashley, the concern 12 is that there are probably some people that**  **13 aren't aware of what's going on, right? And 14 so they may not know what they need to do**  **15 until the certification rule is final. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the package**  **17 you send to ASRAC, which has the dates in it, 18 the proposal, they will go in the docket.**  **19 They will go in the docket before ASRAC gets 20 it. Is that not enough?**  **21 MR. AMRANE: But it's just going 22 to be, you're assuming that nothing changes.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 283**  **1 You're assuming that whatever -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But if there**  **3 are any major changes, then all the dates key 4 off with a certain rule anyway. If there are**  **5 no significant changes is the only time it 6 keys off the AEDM date.**  **7 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can send a 8 blast with a link to it describing that these**  **9 negotiations happened, that a package has been 10 sent to ASRAC, and here's a link to where you**  **11 find the material. Now, again, it's upon 12 themselves to go read them, but you can do**  **13 that. 14 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I**  **15 certainly appreciate that, but I can also 16 appreciate the burdens on manufacturers. I**  **17 think this is a very good idea, but it needs 18 an executive summary that says specific**  **19 recommendations to ASRAC which are likely to 20 be accepted include -**  **21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So that's 22 Neil's report, right?** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 284**  **1 MR. SACHS: Well, I'm saying that, 2 if you're sending a blast, what they should**  **3 see first when they click is something that's 4 a page or two that let's the poor guy at the**  **5 factory know whether he needs to alert 6 managers or not.**  **7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I can see 8 what we can do.**  **9 MR. EISNER: Okay. Before we go 10 back to whether we have a date for the next**  **11 ASRAC meeting, let's focus on this while we're 12 still remembering what we did up here.**  **13 MR. BAUMAN: Have we agreed that 14 compliance to certification will not be**  **15 required until at least after an NPA annual is 16 pulled, some period after the --**  **17 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what those 18 dates are.**  **19 MR. BAUMAN: Right. But I'm 20 saying, again, for the summary or whatever, as**  **21 a public notice to companies to know that the 22 December 31st date, you know, along with that,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 285**  

### 1 that they recognize that the date would be **2 some subsequent date . . . 3 MR. EISNER: Does anybody want to**  **4 change any of this, add to it, subtract? 5 MR. STANONIK: I just thought I'd**  **6 mention what I proposed, I actually said as 7 quickly as DOE can because I recognize that,**  **8 you know, you have constraints. I don't know 9 what they all are. Advise DOE to provide**  **10 public notification as quickly as it can that 11 compliance with, I was trying to acknowledge**  **12 that, you know, you don't necessarily control 13 your schedule all the time.**  **14 MR. EISNER: The government may 15 close us down, though, on October 1st.**  **16 MS. DANE: There you go. 17 MR. EISNER: Everybody okay with**  **18 these two bullets? 19 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly. I'm**  **20 still concerned that I don't know the 21 compliance rules are going to come out in**  **22 relationship to the AEDM rule. Therefore, I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 286**  **1 don't know whether -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: After.**  **3 MR. FLY: After. But if it's six 4 months after it, I only have six months to do**  **5 furnaces that I'm going to get the final rule 6 on the date that they all have to be . . .**  **7 MR. EISNER: Do you want to add 8 something to this on that point?**  **9 MS. BARHYDT: Well, that wouldn't 10 be on this slide. That would be on that slide**  **11 a long time ago. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the reality is,**  **13 where we are right now, one is mostly drafted 14 and one has not been drafted yet. It has to**  **15 be approved, right? So it's going to lag by 16 a month. It's going to lag by maybe two**  **17 months but, hopefully, not more than that, 18 although I will say that part of it is out of**  **19 our control. So that's the wild part of it. 20 I cannot promise a date. We're going to**  **21 control it as much as possible. ASRAC can't 22 do nothing about the part that's out of our** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 287**  **1 control. It's just a matter of -- 2 MR. WHITWELL: So, I mean, I**  **3 guess, thinking about that, we were kind of 4 urged, I would say, to tie the implementation**  **5 dates to the AEDM final rule. But if the 6 certification rule is going to be two or three**  **7 months later, I don't think that, I mean, that 8 would mean that it could be three months from**  **9 when a rule was issued or it may be even less 10 before the first products, the implementation**  **11 dates -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: So a big part of the**  **13 argument for why people need more time is to 14 get testing done. There is no reason --**  **15 MR. WHITWELL: No, I don't think 16 it's testing anymore. It's --**  **17 MS. BARHYDT: Well, I don't know 18 that that's true of all the industries.**  **19 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 20 MR. FLY: But most of them for the**  **21 testing were the 18-month rules, which I'm 22 less concerned with than the 6 month.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 288**  **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, let's 2 be clear. Is the worry here that something**  **3 changes from the proposal such that you 4 already started going down the pathway of**  **5 coming up with your basic models and getting 6 ready for cert? I mean, I can tell you, from**  **7 my perspective, starting tomorrow, well, it's 8 already started, but starting already, two**  **9 things have happened. One is drafting rules, 10 two is getting templates ready. I mean, the**  **11 full intention of the Department is to honor 12 these negotiations.**  **13 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, and I'm not so 14 worried about us here in this room. Again,**  **15 it's more about, and I don't know if there's 16 any- who's out there that have not been**  **17 active, but if there are people that don't 18 know about it, there are people that don't see**  **19 the blasts, and they don't know what they need 20 to do until --**  **21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you think 22 they're going to know any different from a** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 289**  **1 Federal Register notice that's issued? I 2 mean, do you see my argument?**  **3 MR. WHITWELL: Ashley, you know, 4 honestly, I don't know. I'm a little worried**  **5 that there might be some people that, you 6 know, maybe I shouldn't worry about this but** 
**7 . . . 8 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, we have the**  **9 advantage of going back and starting stuff 10 now. They don't have that advantage.**  **11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. But 12 the ASRAC report, I mean, to the extent we get**  **13 it done by next week, will go in the docket. 14 They are going to have access to the same**  **15 information you do. 16 MS. MEYERS: I think this is a new**  **17 process, and what people mainly have knowledge 18 of is the NOPR in the final rule. Sometimes**  **19 that can change before that, so I think, 20 inherently, most people don't start a lot of**  **21 regulatory things until the final rule comes 22 out and they're not --** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 290**  **1 MR. WHITWELL: Or at least a NOPR, 2 right?**  **3 MS. MEYERS: Or at least the NOPR. 4 So I think probably, you know, the same may be**  **5 happening here. 6 MR. FLY: I mean, I'm going to**  **7 have trouble getting resources to start on 8 this, on something that may happen.**  **9 MR. BALLO: Would it address the 10 issue to, in this meeting we're going to have,**  **11 to address whether comments or there have been 12 significant changes from the original proposal**  **13 to, at that time, also consider whether delays 14 in the issuance of the certification rule**  **15 require additional time for, additional 16 extension of the compliance deadline?**  **17 MR. WHITWELL: So with the thought 18 that, at that point, we'll have a better idea**  **19 of when the certification rule will be issued? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: In theory, right,**  **21 I mean, if I caught what Tim said correctly, 22 you would have the comments from the proposal.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 291**  **1 So if we got a bunch of significant adverse 2 comments requiring us to change the proposal**  **3 or change direction, at that time, you would 4 renegotiate the time frame.**  **5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, so this is 6 after the NOPR goes out. I get the comments,**  **7 and so they can be adjusted to the final rule. 8 The NOPR would have the proposed dates in it,**  **9 we get comments, find out if people are having 10 a lot of concern about that, and they . . .**  **11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And in the 12 meantime, the blast does goes out. Hopefully,**  **13 everyone can be encouraged to look at the 14 transcript and/or, you know, the summary.**  **15 We'll try as much to provide an executive 16 summary in the blast.**  **17 MR. STARR: The adverse comments 18 can't come from this group.**  **19 MR. HON: Wouldn't it be really 20 advantageous to put in items of note and**  **21 reference such and such a date in paragraph 22 ten or something, the highlighted paragraphs** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 292**  **1 that are so critical to this operation, rather 2 than just sending out a blast and have people**  **3 read pages on pages. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I mean, we**  **5 can definitely attempt to do that, like, at 6 least highlight some specific things. To the**  **7 extent Neil's report is going to be hundreds 8 of pages long, we're happy to highlight pages**  **9 for them. 10 MR. EISNER: And, again, we're**  **11 highlighting here in the report. 12 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, if they read**  **13 the report, they ought to -- 14 MR. HON: But that's what I'm**  **15 saying. Items of note may be in report on 16 such and such a date.**  **17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 18 MR. FLY: So what rulemaking is**  **19 going to contain the deadline dates? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Cert.**  **21 MR. FLY: Certification? The cert 22 rule comes out two or three months after -- is** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 293**  **1 that going to be after December 31st? I guess 2 that's my question.**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So cert NOPR 4 will say date six months after AEDM final rule**  **5 date referencing that docket, so that people 6 understand that it's tied to that other final**  **7 rule. 8 MR. FLY: Which should already be**  **9 out by then. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Which should already**  **11 be done. 12 MR. FLY: But both in comment**  **13 period. 14 MS. BARHYDT: But they'll both be**  **15 in comment period. Final rule, cert final 16 rule, there should already be an AEDM final**  **17 rule. I mean, they'll be staggered. There 18 should be an AEDM final rule, and it will be**  **19 six months after whatever that date is, and 20 that will be a date certain at that point.**  **21 MR. WHITWELL: When do we think 22 the certification NOPR will go out? I mean,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 294**  **1 is that two months from now? 2 MS. HOOTMAN: That's just a little**  **3 -- I mean, does it take you a month to write 4 up? If everything didn't change from ASRAC,**  **5 I mean, I don't know. I mean, does it take a 6 month to write that and then --**  **7 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not the 8 writing that's the issue --**  **9 MS. BARHYDT: At this point, we 10 don't have a significance determination on**  **11 this rule because we don't have a rule yet. 12 MR. EISNER: I used to say I could**  **13 take my good writer, put the person in a room 14 for two or three days, and write any rule we**  **15 had to write, all the time that it took 16 happened after the day he came out the door.**  **17 MR. WHITWELL: I'm just trying to 18 get a feel for, I mean, once the NOPR comes**  **19 out, I mean, that's a pretty good indication 20 of what's going to be in the rule, right? So**  **21 manufacturers who maybe haven't been involved 22 will at least see the NOPR, should see the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 295**  **1 NOPR, and they can start making preparations. 2 And that could be a month or two before the**  **3 AEDM rule comes out, I guess. Maybe. 4 MR. EISNER: You're saying the**  **5 NOPR could go out a month or two before the 6 AEDM --**  **7 MR. WHITWELL: Final rule, right. 8 Yes, yes.**  **9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, yes, it's 10 supposed to, it's going to go. There's no --**  **11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So that's 12 what their question was is when do we think**  **13 the NOPR will go out. So you're saying -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I know your**  **15 question. So if I give you a date, do you all 16 promise not to email the day after that date?**  **17 MR. HURST: Give us a date. 18 MS. MEYERS: We'll verify your**  **19 date later. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think**  **21 there's any way -- so this assumes we get a 22 non-significant determination. I don't think** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 296**  **1 there's any way we get it out of here before 2 the end of September.**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: I'm still on 4 vacation then. I want to at least read it**  **5 before it goes. 6 MR. WHITWELL: So end of October**  **7 you think it will be out? By the end of 8 October?**  **9 MS. ARMSTRONG: End of September 10 would be my guess. When do you get back?**  **11 MS. BARHYDT: I leave the 27th. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Of September?**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can get it out**  **15 before you go. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.**  **17 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that assumes a 18 non-significant determination. If we get**  **19 something different, if we get that, it's out 20 of our hands.**  **21 MR. EISNER: What was your 22 experience with the last negotiated** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 297**  **1 rulemaking? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, that was a**  **3 standard rulemaking, and so that's a whole 4 different ball game.**  **5 MR. EISNER: So you think this one 6 is more likely --**  **7 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is the hope. 8 MR. FLY: But we're not doing**  **9 verification. 10 MR. EISNER: My experience with a**  **11 lot of regulatory negotiations -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: The problem with**  **13 that is the December 31st date sticks, right? 14 I mean . . .**  **15 MR. EISNER: My experience with a 16 lot of regulatory negotiations was that most**  **17 of them were classified significant, most of 18 them cleared, if not all of them, very, very**  **19 quickly. Because they were negotiated 20 rulemakings, there was consensus around the**  **21 table about what ought to be in it. It's kind 22 of hard to say, well, we think it should be** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 298**  **1 this way or that way when this group has done 2 the negotiations. They haven't had the same**  **3 kind of experience other agencies have had. 4 So there's nothing you can assume about --**  **5 MS. HOOTMAN: Laura, what are you 6 smiling about? I said, Laura, what are you**  **7 smiling about when he says that? 8 MS. BARHYDT: I'm smiling because**  **9 he's smiling. 10 MR. BALLO: I can tell you a story**  **11 about refrigerators. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Is our product**  **13 classes going to be held up? 14 MR. EISNER: Okay.**  **15 MR. DOPPEL: When will we see this 16 in a Word document or a PDF that's going to be**  **17 going in? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: What do you mean?**  **19 The PowerPoints are updated to show -- 20 MR. DOPPEL: Okay.**  **21 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then Neil 22 will, well, Neil, whomever he needs help with,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 299**  **1 we'll just transcribe that into the -- 2 MR. EISNER: But they'll be**  **3 attached to -- what we've been talking about 4 is bullets to put in a cover memo to which all**  **5 these slides are attached. So the point -- 6 you know, again, we're talking about what key**  **7 points do we want to make to them? We've been 8 through the one on verification. These are**  **9 the points that are up there on everything but 10 verification, the certification side of it.**  **11 Do you want to say more than this? Do you 12 want to say this? Does everybody agree to**  **13 this? 14 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with**  **15 AHRI. I think Tim suggested something before. 16 Is it on the slide or not?**  **17 MR. BALLO: Yes. So it says -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: Maybe it was a**  **19 different slide. There were several slides. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's that one.**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: That one? 22 MR. BALLO: Where it says working** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 300**  **1 group to determine whether final certain rule 2 has deviated significantly from the original**  **3 proposal or whether delays in the issuance of 4 the rule will trigger --**  **5 MR. WHITWELL: Should impact the 6 implementation dates, right?** 
**7 MR. BALLO: Yes. 8 MR. EISNER: Do you want to add**  **9 that? 10 MS. BARHYDT: So what I'm thinking**  **11 about is how we do a proposed rule that we 12 don't end up having to SNOPR because this**  **13 group decides to change the dates. 14 MR. EISNER: Say that again.**  **15 MS. BARHYDT: So we have to be 16 able to structure our proposal so that the**  **17 dates are clear enough that we can get to our 18 final rule without triggering a supplemental**  **19 notice of proposed rulemaking because the 20 dates change.**  **21 MR. WHITWELL: So if there's a 22 proposed rulemaking with certain dates and the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 301**  **1 final rule has later dates, you need to go 2 through a supplemental NOPR?**  **3 MS. ARMSTRONG: It depends on what 4 the language of the proposal says.**  **5 MR. EISNER: What if you said 6 exactly what we're talking about here: These**  **7 are the dates we proposed. They may change if 8 the following happens, and we would like**  **9 comment on that. 10 MR. BALLO: This is opening a can**  **11 of worms that maybe we don't need to open but, 12 to the extent people have real concerns about**  **13 -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the problem**  **15 with being flexible -- the advantage of being 16 flexible is that there's a potential that we**  **17 can adopt something different in the final 18 rule. However, the disadvantage of being**  **19 flexible is you're almost inviting comment on 20 all other dates, and you're guaranteed to get**  **21 adverse comments. So if the intent is to 22 honor this agreement, I mean, it is a really** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 302**  **1 fine line there because, for people not in 2 this room, you're pretty much asking them,**  **3 well, what other compliance seats would you 4 want? And then, you know, you're going to get**  **5 a mixed bag, in which case you're almost 6 guaranteed a problem.**  **7 MR. FLY: I think you're going to 8 get a lot less comments if you tie the dates**  **9 to the final because, otherwise, nobody knows 10 what the dates mean.**  **11 MS. MEYERS: So instead of 12 assigning to the AEDM rule, assign it to the**  **13 certification? 14 MR. FLY: The certification rule,**  **15 which will follow it. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: It was a**  **17 recommendation. 18 MS. MEYERS: Yes. So I think**  **19 that's right. I think you have to change it. 20 I think you have to.**  **21 MS. HOOTMAN: So, Ashley, why did 22 you have us tie the dates -- well, yesterday** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 303**  **1 even, when you came in the room, I mean, I 2 thought it was that we had to tie into the**  **3 AEDM rule. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that is what I**  **5 -- well, that's what I read, first of all, in 6 your thing that you sent.**  **7 MS. HOOTMAN: I think we kind of 8 maybe don't understand.**  **9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think this is 10 more an issue that you need to --**  **11 MR. WHITWELL: I think so, too. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I mean, the**  **13 dates are not something -- 14 MR. EISNER: Let's look at the**  **15 slide. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: But I can tell**  **17 you, from my perspective, in terms of, like, 18 implementing templates and providing portals**  **19 to you, we will start tomorrow. I mean, it 20 will take us some time, especially because of**  **21 those PDFs. I mean, getting the ability to 22 upload those PDFs and getting that to work is** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 304**  **1 going to take some time. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Which manufacturers**  **3 have to do, as well. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to have**  **5 to create that whole, I may have to create 6 that infrastructure, too. So my intention is**  **7 not to wait beyond tomorrow to start. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Which slide am I**  **9 looking for? 10 MR. EISNER: I think it's the one**  **11 with the five or six states on one side and 12 the list of products on the other side. All**  **13 right. As I recall, these were based on the 14 assumption that you -- what if were to change**  **15 this to certification rule, would the months 16 change?**  **17 MS. DANE: They should be because 18 there was always an expectation that the cert**  **19 rule was going to be after the AEDM rule. 20 MR. EISNER: We're talking at**  **21 least a month or two, hence the six to nine. 22 So if we talk about changing this to months** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 305**  **1 after the certification rule, would you cut 2 each of these by, for example, two months?**  **3 MS. DANE: Well, I think the 4 understanding was, and I'm going to say that,**  **5 from the end of the certification rule, is if 6 there was a significant change in the**  **7 certification rule. So I can see some of the 8 people getting their information from some of**  **9 these conference calls maybe having problems 10 would still have a problem if those dates were**  **11 shortened any. 12 MR. EISNER: My recollection is**  **13 there's something in there that addresses 14 that. It's saying- In fact, that's on the**  **15 slide that you just had up, also, that we 16 would meet after the comment period ended and**  **17 the certification rule to decide whether the 18 schedule would be adjusted. But if everybody**  **19 seems to be saying now, most people seem to be 20 saying it should be months after certification**  **21 rule because we don't know when that's going 22 to come out.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 306**  **1 So if the AEDM rule comes out on 2 December 31st of this year but the**  **3 certification final rule gets out on March 4 31st, you still have the AEDM rule coming out**  **5 and you have several months and then you have 6 this. Does it need to be 6, 9, 12, 15, and**  **7 18, or should it be two months less? 8 MS. DANE: I guess that's what my**  **9 comment was. 10 MR. EISNER: Assuming nothing**  **11 substantive changes, nothing really 12 significant changes in the certification**  **13 proposal. 14 MS. DANE: I'm pretty visual. I**  **15 need to know what significant means. 16 MR. EISNER: Big deal.**  **17 MS. DANE: Okay. So . . . 18 MR. WHITWELL: It's really up to**  **19 us to determine what's significant. 20 MR. EISNER: Well, you're going to**  **21 sit down in a group. But assuming that you 22 all sit down in a group and decide nothing** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 307**  **1 significant has changed and the schedule 2 should stay the same, should the schedule be**  **3 a little shorter? Because as I recall was 4 inherent in coming up with these dates was**  **5 that the certification rule was going to be at 6 least two months.**  **7 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know that 8 we ever really talked about that kind of**  **9 timing. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: No, no, and I'd have**  **11 to say that, I mean, right or wrong, I know 12 that said AEDM up there, but, in my mind, I**  **13 was thinking, okay, instead of December 31st, 14 I have six months, I have until June 14th.**  **15 That's what I was envisioning in my head when 16 I looked at this and said, yes, that's doable.**  **17 MR. KLEISS: Could you scroll down 18 to the double asterisk, please?**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: There's also the 20 six-month grace period already built into this**  **21 so -- 22 MR. AMRANE: Could we, could we** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 308**  **1 leave it the way it is, then we visit this 2 issue when the NOPR is out and when we see**  **3 whether there are significant -- I think 4 there's an understanding that we could revise**  **5 those dates. 6 MS. BARHYDT: So if we just revise**  **7 them, we may have to SNOPR. 8 MR. KLEISS: The six-month grace**  **9 period means what? 10 MS. BARHYDT: There would be no**  **11 enforcement actions brought during that 12 six-month period.**  **13 MR. FLY: But the expectation is 14 that the numbers are in the database.**  **15 MS. BARHYDT: That is the 16 requirement.**  **17 MR. FLY: It is not grace from 18 having numbers in the database.**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: Well, it means that, 20 if you don't, I'm not bringing you a $200 a**  **21 day penalty. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So, in** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 309**  **1 theory, if someone doesn't, is not paying 2 attention, they get caught off guard, the**  **3 final rule comes out, it comes out in March, 4 they got three months for heating products,**  **5 they really got nine months before anything 6 severe is going to --**  **7 MS. BARHYDT: Before anything 8 severe. Okay.**  **9 MR. FLY: Letters from the general 10 counsel's office of DOE do not sit well.**  **11 MS. MEYERS: But the flip side of 12 that is that you only, while we agreed to 12**  **13 months, you really only have nine months. 14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers.**  **15 Since we've only had a proposal on the table 16 for two months --**  **17 MR. WHITWELL: The grace period 18 applies to each of those dates?**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, yes, six months 20 from whenever it's due.**  **21 MR. STANONIK: Well, the double 22 asterisks, the whole column. That's standard** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 310**  

### 1 table formatting. It's at the heading of the **2 column, so it applies to every entry. 3 MR. KLEISS: They're just saying**  **4 the grace period starts at the termination of 5 each --**  **6 MR. WHITWELL: Of the 7 implementation date, right? The six-month**  **8 grace period starting at the implementation 9 date, each implementation.**  **10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, 11 PVI. Since we're only talking about the**  **12 potential of two months, it's been proposed 13 that we take two months out of this and all**  **14 the questions, can we change that to 15 certification instead of AEDM and just leave**  **16 the dates like they are? 17 MS. BARHYDT: Minus two months.**  **18 MR. MYERS: No. 19 MR. STANONIK: One other thought**  **20 on the triple asterisks, what if it said 21 defaults two months after final CCC rule, if**  **22 significant changes in working group**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 311**  **1 agreements or if CCC rule is finalized X 2 months after AEDM final rule? X is the**  **3 unknown. 4 MS. MEYERS: Why again are we**  **5 calling this the AEDM compliance date? My 6 engineers are going to ask me this, and I**  **7 really don't know what to tell them yet. 8 MR. JOHNSON: I think the reason**  **9 we tied it to the AEDM was because all the 10 other smaller manufacturers that are waiting**  **11 for that AEDM rule to come out so they know. 12 MS. BARHYDT: So the idea was that**  **13 the biggest holdup is not having an AEDM rule. 14 But as soon as you have an AEDM rule, you can**  **15 start working on all of your values to make 16 sure you have an AEDM in place. And that is**  **17 why you need so much time to implement this in 18 the first place. So as soon as you have an**  **19 AEDM rule, it doesn't really matter when the 20 cert rule comes out because, at that point,**  **21 it's a paperwork exercise. The real hangup 22 was supposed to be testing and AEDM.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 312**  **1 MS. MEYERS: But this is not 2 insignificant, what will be in the**  **3 certification rule. 4 MR. AMRANE: What you're saying is**  **5 fair. I think that you're right. But at the 6 same time, you know, we're not having a final**  **7 rule on certification, you know, people are 8 going to say, well, you know, what are the**  **9 requirements we should be complying? Yes, it 10 will be on the docket, and people will be able**  **11 to see those -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: But if they get**  **13 their AEDM rule and they get their AEDMs in 14 place and they have all their certified**  **15 ratings, it doesn't take 18 months to fill out 16 a piece of paper.**  **17 MR. AMRANE: I agree, but there 18 are other things.**  **19 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, there's 20 more than just filling out, just filling in**  **21 data. There's more than that. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, we're** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 313**  **1 going to have prepare, too. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Good, good.**  **3 MS. HOOTMAN: And if those aren't 4 there until the Nth hour, it's hard for us to**  **5 upload stuff. 6 MR. STANONIK: But I think the**  **7 working group needs to be, I'll say sensitive 8 to the current situation. The current**  **9 situation is there is a certification rule, 10 right? There is a rule. There is, in fact,**  **11 an AEDM spelled out that nobody wants to use. 12 So those things are there, and so, first of**  **13 all, I think -- put it this way: the AEDM 14 proposal that will give a tool that you would**  **15 actually want to use and can use, we want that 16 to come out first. That, in fact, if DOE**  **17 can't do it sooner, that will be the first 18 opportunity to show what the ruling is as far**  **19 as extending those dates. If you don't have 20 that proposed AEDM rule, where are people**  **21 going to see that? 22 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not sure I** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 314**  **1 followed all of - 2 MR. STANONIK: All right. We've**  **3 talked about we really would like DOE, at some 4 point, to say this very first date is not**  **5 going to be applied. Okay. But let's just 6 say, for whatever, you know, good and various**  **7 reasons, DOE is not allowed to do it, can't do 8 it, not won't, can't, okay? So when is going**  **9 to be the first opportunity to publically tell 10 everybody involved that these dates are**  **11 planning to be moved? It's going to be the 12 AEDM proposal. I'll ask you what other**  **13 notification would you have an opportunity to 14 do that?**  **15 MR. AMRANE: My understanding is 16 that the AEDM rule is already done. You're**  **17 not going to be able to put the dates in 18 there.**  **19 MS. BARHYDT: I said we don't know 20 exactly when everything coming out.**  **21 MR. AMRANE: Oh, okay, because 22 that would be a good way to do it then if you** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 315**  **1 can put the dates in the AEDM rule. That 2 would be --**  **3 MS. BARHYDT: I just said I wasn't 4 going to commit to it because I don't know**  **5 when the rule is coming out. 6 MR. FLY: But if the certification**  **7 rule, which contains the dates, comes out 8 after the 31st, that's a problem.**  **9 MS. MEYERS: They can't be too far 10 apart because you could have product lines in**  **11 limbo. I mean, what do you do with new 12 products coming out? How do you certify it?**  **13 How do you group it? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: The same way you**  **15 would do for existing products. I mean, 16 there's no difference. You're going to have**  **17 to do them across the board. 18 MR. STANONIK: I'm sure you'll**  **19 answer it if you can. Okay. So you have this 20 AEDM rule and you get the proposal out. When**  **21 that rule is finalized is certainly within 22 DOE's decision-making authority, for the most** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 316**  **1 part. So the AEDM rule comes out sometime 2 later, whenever it can be done. Certification**  **3 proposal comes out. If there's a huge lag, 4 and let's say, I'll be absurd here, eight**  **5 months. There's a huge lag. DOE could work 6 it such that the final rule on the AEDM gets**  **7 finalized closer to when the other rule gets 8 finalized, right? I mean, that could be**  **9 worked out. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I think the**  **11 answer to that is yes, but it also sounded to 12 me like you were saying DOE might delay**  **13 publication of the AEDM rule to get it closer 14 to the cert rule, and I don't think we would**  **15 want to do that. We want to get the AEDM rule 16 out as soon as possible.**  **17 MR. STANONIK: All right. I would 18 say then --**  **19 MR. AMRANE: But if you can put 20 the dates in AEDM, that would be --**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: I understand. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Proposed dates.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 317**  **1 They would be proposed dates in the AEDM rule, 2 right? Or would they be final? No. Final**  **3 dates? No, they can't -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'd have to**  **5 propose them, regardless of where we put them. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, but it would**  **7 be proposed in the AEDM rule because then it 8 would be -- I would think the proposed dates,**  **9 the real proposed dates, would be based on, 10 would be in the NOPR for the certification.**  **11 Oh, okay. So you want to, so the proposed 12 dates would come out in the AEDM rule, but**  **13 nobody knows what the rule is yet because the 14 NOPR for the rule is not out yet?**  **15 MS. ARMSTRONG: For a period of 16 time.**  **17 MR. WHITWELL: That would be a 18 problem.**  **19 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're in the 20 middle of developing new products --**  **21 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think 22 everybody is talking entirely about the same** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 318**  **1 thing. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe not. Maybe**  **3 I'm confused. I feel like I'm confused. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So somewhere, in**  **5 one of the two rules, we have to propose the 6 dates, right? It doesn't really, I mean, some**  **7 people may have opinions about where we do it 8 because it signals our attempt in one place**  **9 sooner than another. And then, in a final 10 rule, one of the two of them has the finalized**  **11 dates. So final dates will be keyed off 12 another date, whatever it is. Right now, it's**  **13 publication of the AEDM final rule. 14 MR. WHITWELL: My question, it**  **15 sounds like, and maybe I misunderstand what 16 you're saying, but it sounds like you want to**  **17 have, it's possible to have the final dates or 18 the effective dates for certification in the**  **19 AEDM rule, but nobody knows what the 20 certification, final certification or proposed**  **21 certification requirements are yet because 22 that NOPR is not out yet.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 319**  **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is possible. 2 MR. WHITWELL: To me, I think**  **3 people would have -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So the**  **5 idea would be, even if we -- I have no idea 6 what she wants to do. But even if we -- by**  **7 the way this is my caveat. With that caveat, 8 we could, you will have both NOPRs out before**  **9 a final rule comes out. I can guarantee that. 10 Even if we had, even if we put the proposed**  **11 rule in here with the proposed dates in the 12 AEDM rule, you'll see the proposed**  **13 certification rule before you see a final rule 14 for AEDM, simply because of comment notice and**  **15 comment process timing things. 16 So there's no intention here to**  **17 lag significantly. It's just that you're 18 passing to ASRAC something two months later.**  **19 We have to have that official vote. We have 20 to go through the process before I can get**  **21 something out. I mean, even if I were to 22 write it tomorrow and get it through a review,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 320**  **1 ASRAC's meeting is not until September 12th to 2 get an official vote.**  **3 MS. MEYERS: So what if we held 4 them and released them at the same time?**  **5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're supposed to 6 get AEDMs out as soon as possible, I think,**  **7 right? 8 MS. MEYERS: But given this issue**  **9 and if it's two months that we're talking 10 about, is it better for all industry players**  **11 to release them at the same time? 12 MR. FLY: It delays the whole**  **13 process and the implementation date ends up 14 being the same as if you would have --**  **15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. You're 16 not gaining anything.**  **17 MR. FLY: -- put it out with the 18 certification date. So why don't we just tie**  **19 it to the certification -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're going in**  **21 circles here. 22 MR. KLEISS: Attaching things to** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 321**  **1 the AEDM also creates a sense of urgency that 2 you get on the AEDM right away, which I think**  **3 is not a bad thing. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm trying to.**  **5 MR. KLEISS: No, no, no, it's 6 good. I'm supporting what we've got.**  **7 MR. EISNER: And Laura has amended 8 it. I don't know if that means she agrees to**  **9 it, but she has amended it, the number three 10 asterisk footnote. You've got to scroll, I**  **11 guess. It defaults two months after the final 12 CCE rule, significant changes from the working**  **13 group agreement or if the certification final 14 rule is issued more than three months after**  **15 the AEDM rule. It sounds to me like that 16 addresses some of the concerns you had about**  **17 if they're too far apart. So if DOE is 18 willing to agree to that, is everybody else**  **19 willing to agree to that? 20 MR. HON: I'm not prepared to do**  **21 that. 22 MR. EISNER: Okay. Would you say** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 322**  **1 why? 2 MR. HON: It's just drawing the**  **3 process out. The AEDM rule should be out 4 first.**  **5 MR. EISNER: The AEDM rule could 6 be, would be out first.**  **7 MR. HON: Yes. And then we're 8 delaying it until the CCE rule comes out.**  **9 MR. EISNER: Only if it's more 10 than three months after the AEDM.**  **11 MR. HON: But that could easily 12 happen.**  **13 MS. BARHYDT: Charlie wants cert 14 as soon as possible.**  **15 MR. FLY: You could be referred to 16 certified before the certification rule comes**  **17 out. 18 MR. HON: If everybody else is**  **19 with me, I'm going. There's a default process 20 here.**  **21 MR. EISNER: So we do not have 22 consensus. We have one negative vote --** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 323**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: I'll negative vote 2 on that.**  **3 MS. HOOTMAN: Negative vote on 4 just that line; is that what we're saying?**  **5 MR. STANONIK: The three-month 6 option.**  **7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, three-month 8 option. Okay.**  **9 MR. AMRANE: Hopefully, DOE would 10 be on time, and there'd be no three months.**  **11 MS. MEYERS: I don't want to delay 12 it either, but, practically, if it's not**  **13 finalized until, you know, for 120 days and 14 that happens because it's significantly**  **15 changed, you got significant comments -- 16 MS. BARHYDT: If it's significant,**  **17 it goes through the circle. 18 MR. STANONIK: Significance is**  **19 addressed. 20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers.**  **21 What happens to the folks that have to comply 22 in six months if it's six months before the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 324**  **1 final rule comes out? I think there has to be 2 something in there.**  **3 MR. WHITWELL: Well, hopefully 4 not, right? But, you know, what if it is? I**  **5 have faith, but there needs to be a fallback 6 position. I just think . . .**  **7 MR. KLEISS: Remember the 8 six-month grace period at the end of this,**  **9 too. I think this is workable. 10 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, the**  **11 compliance date, obviously, will not be prior 12 to the issuance of the rule. I mean, there's**  **13 no way. At that point, we would be let's not 14 bring anything.**  **15 MR. EISNER: Would you at least 16 have 30 days before the effective date, before**  **17 making that six months being the maximum 18 delay, or do you feel that's unnecessary in**  **19 this situation? Some are just talking the 20 difference between three months and five**  **21 months. 22 MR. HON: Well, we don't have** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 325**  **1 that. If somebody, if we get a thousand 2 comments on this CCE rule, it could delay that**  **3 a long time. 4 MR. EISNER: And then they have to**  **5 delay these dates. 6 MR. HON: To somebody, yes.**  **7 MR. EISNER: That's what I'm 8 saying. We're talking about a maximum of five**  **9 months unless DOE believes that it can issue 10 the rule the same day the implementation**  **11 starts. 12 MR. BALLO: But you could add**  **13 something there, you know, in no event shall 14 certification be required less than however**  **15 many months from the final CCE rule, less than 16 two months, less than --**  **17 MR. EISNER: That's for people 18 that are already over the three months.**  **19 Everybody seems to expect it to be a month or 20 two behind. It's more than five months**  **21 behind, it's going to have to be extended. So 22 the question is whether there's any advantage** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 326**  **1 to putting in if it's more than three months 2 or four months, and five months is the maximum**  **3 anyway. 4 MR. MYERS: I like Tim's idea.**  **5 Under no circumstances will compliance be 6 required in less than two months after the**  **7 rule is issued. There's been talk about the 8 grace period. Someone asked what would happen**  **9 if it was six months and you got six months 10 compliance. I don't know if manufacturers**  **11 want to get a rule that they can't comply with 12 and the only reason they're not in serious**  **13 trouble is because there's not going to be 14 enforcement. They want to comply with the**  **15 rule when it says you're supposed to comply 16 with it. They need at least some amount of**  **17 time to be able to do that. 18 MR. EISNER: Yes, I think what the**  **19 grace period is for is to provide educational 20 experiences when you find a mistake was made,**  **21 rather than a penalty. Is this something DOE 22 can live with, otherwise meaning Laura?** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 327**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, I can live with 2 that.**  **3 MR. EISNER: Can everybody else? 4 Do we have unanimous consensus on this?**  **5 MR. HON: This is more reasonable 6 because there has to be some span between.**  **7 You have to give the really tight schedule 8 people some period there.**  **9 MR. EISNER: All right. Do we 10 have any disagreement with this, any objection**  **11 to this? Any abstention? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Again, I'm having a**  **13 hard time seeing what it says, so I'd like to 14 just --**  **15 MR. EISNER: What it's saying is, 16 essentially, if the rule is more than four**  **17 months behind, the dates are going to have to 18 be extended. You're going to have at least 60**  **19 days after the rule comes out. So no 20 abstentions, no objections? Everybody's still**  **21 awake? 22 MS. DANE: So, Laura, on the line** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 328**  **1 with the triple, okay, you're assuming six 2 months grace on the second. On the triple**  **3 one, it says defines two months after CCC 4 rule. Does that mean, is there a number that**  **5 goes in there, or are you just -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: No. So that column**  **7 is what has the asterisks, and so the heading 8 is that it's that many months after the AEDM**  **9 rule. And it changes two months after the 10 final CCE rule, if significant changes occur.**  **11 MS. DANE: Okay. Or, and then in 12 no event shall certification be required less**  **13 than two months, that's in case they start 14 bumping into each other? Okay.**  **15 MR. HON: Now, when this happens, 16 do all the others use the same formula for**  **17 reduction? If the six months gets pulled down 18 to two months?**  **19 MR. EISNER: Six months from a 20 different date. It runs from the date the**  **21 rule . . . 22 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, I see what** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 329**  **1 you're saying, and, no, that's not what I was 2 thinking.**  **3 MR. HON: That's why I'm asking. 4 MS. BARHYDT: I think it only**  **5 affects the first four. 6 MR. MYERS: Just there's a**  **7 minimum. Put the minimum on there. Everybody 8 gets the same minimum, and others get**  **9 advantage of a later implementation time -- 10 MR. FLY: So if it takes you 18**  **11 months to get it out after the CCE rule, then 12 everybody gets it.**  **13 MR. HON: That's fine. That's why 14 I wanted to make sure we weren't pushing**  **15 extensions. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.**  **17 MR. EISNER: All right. Any 18 objections? Any abstentions? Everybody**  **19 awake? Okay. I think we've got this one 20 amended. Now that takes us back to the**  **21 bullets on the certification rule and what we 22 want to say to ASRAC. That's where we were,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 330**  **1 the three bullets. Anybody want to add to 2 this, change any of this? Anything else you'd**  **3 want to say about the rule? 4 MR. WHITWELL: Do we need to say**  **5 specifically that our recommendation is that 6 we have, that we separate out the compliance**  **7 piece with the verification piece? We have a 8 certification rule and that follow-up with the**  **9 verification rule. 10 MR. EISNER: Right now, I think**  **11 the drafts that I did says that we would begin 12 working on the certification rules as soon as**  **13 it's approved. We would then try to resolve 14 the differences on verification, send that to**  **15 ASRAC. If time permitted, it could be added 16 to --**  **17 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, I remember, 18 yes, yes.**  **19 MR. EISNER: But there's no reason 20 we can't say that.**  **21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And so then I 22 think the first statement up there then about** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 331**  **1 moving very quickly is specifically with 2 respect to the certification.**  **3 MR. EISNER: And these are three 4 bullets just for certification.** 
**5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 6 MR. EISNER: Anything else?**  **7 Anybody want to say anything about the 8 friendships made during these negotiations?**  **9 Do we want to say Laura and Ashley did a great 10 job? So no additions to this? Everybody is**  **11 fine with what's up there? I hope we still 12 have a quorum.**  **13 MR. MYERS: Is there another 14 statement, or is this it?**  **15 MR. EISNER: These are three 16 different bullets.**  **17 MS. BARHYDT: For certification. 18 MR. EISNER: Four bullets, four**  **19 bullets. These are verification. 20 MS. BARHYDT: I mean**  **21 certification. I spoke wrong. 22 MR. EISNER: Okay. Four for** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 332**  **1 certification. Everybody is okay with that? 2 Nothing else? All right.**  **3 MS. HOOTMAN: So, Neil, do we get 4 a copy of that?**  **5 MR. EISNER: The bullets? Your 6 bullets or --**  **7 MS. HOOTMAN: The report. 8 MR. EISNER: They usually -- don't**  **9 you post it someplace? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, so this will**  **11 go in SharePoint, and your report will be put 12 in the docket.**  **13 MS. HOOTMAN: Docket, okay. And 14 then this will go in SharePoint tonight?**  **15 Okay. 16 MR. WHITWELL: When should we**  **17 expect the report? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ask Neil.**  **19 MR. EISNER: I would think we'd 20 have a report to them before the end of the**  **21 week. I've already given them a rough draft 22 with certain assumptions being made about** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 333**  

### 1 these dates. **2 MR. MYERS: We already voted on 3 what's on the screen?**  **4 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 5 MR. BALLO: One other point,**  **6 though. Looking back at our scope of working 7 group negotiations document from many months**  **8 ago, we were supposed to talk about 9 enforcement, enforcement testing, sample**  **10 sizes, tolerances. We haven't done that. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Tim, that's kind of**  **12 why they keep saying what do we have left, 13 what do we have left, and everyone says**  **14 verification, verification. Thank you. I 15 thought there was something else.**  **16 MS. BARHYDT: I guess I don't 17 understand the bullet. We put that on there**  **18 because people said that they were interested 19 in that, and I don't even understand the**  **20 bullet. 21 MS. DANE: Aren't those things**  **22 part of the verification program, though? I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 334**  **1 mean, can't they be? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Enforcement is**  **3 not. 4 MS. DANE: Okay. Then that**  **5 enforcement and tolerances and the other 6 things that Tim mentioned are still open. I**  **7 guess we'd have to take care of them in our 8 offline meetings, wouldn't we?**  **9 MR. AMRANE: Well, for example, 10 the enforcement requirements for commercial**  **11 HVAC are not the same as residential HVAC. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: They are. We had**  **13 this conversation. It's the -- the cert 14 tolerances are not the same, the enforcements**  **15 are. You don't trust me yet? 16 MR. WHITWELL: Trust but verify.**  **17 That's what you're doing, right? 18 MR. SACHS: Are we just trying to**  **19 figure out why we can't leave? 20 MR. EISNER: I want to see if we**  **21 had more to do before the cert reports. Could 22 you read that again, Tim?** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 335**  **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I can show you. 2 Can I just show you they are the same?**  **3 MR. AMRANE: But that goes beyond 4 that. I think the idea is what we have**  **5 currently in the CFR is it would be justified, 6 what we have up to date, is it justified?**  **7 MR. MYERS: Is it workable? 8 MR. AMRANE: Is it workable? I**  **9 mean, those kinds of questions because it was 10 done a long time ago and we don't know how it**  **11 was done. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: True. And in light**  **13 of what we said in AEDM and some of the other 14 stuff, I don't know. I really would have to**  **15 go back and look at enforcement to say. 16 MR. EISNER: It was enforcement**  **17 and what else? 18 MS. DANE: No, that was the AEDMs.**  **19 But if things were supposed to be able to come 20 back out on the table, those things should at**  **21 least be discussed. So I think they would 22 show as open items on the ASRAC list. And I** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 336**  **1 would suggest we talk about that at the next 2 meeting and decide whether that --**  **3 MR. EISNER: Do we want to say on 4 this that we have to resolve something or we**  **5 have to first discuss whether the current 6 rules are adequate or need change?**  **7 MS. DANE: I don't think there's 8 enough people here today to decide whether the**  **9 current rules are adequate enough, and it was 10 one of the things on the schedule we had open**  **11 for negotiations, so I would think that we 12 would want to have this carry over to the**  **13 September meeting and then decide whether or 14 not it's something else we pick up and run**  **15 with. 16 MR. EISNER: That's what I was**  **17 getting at. 18 MS. DANE: Yes.**  **19 MR. EISNER: Do we need to change 20 the existing rules after discussing those?**  **21 MS. DANE: We may have to. 22 MR. EISNER: Yes, I agree. But is** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 337**  **1 it possible that we'll look at the existing 2 rules and, maybe with guidance or maybe with**  **3 explanations, everybody would say, okay, 4 they're satisfactory? I think that's what you**  **5 were saying. 6 MS. DANE: Right. But there's not**  **7 enough people here or on the phone -- 8 MR. EISNER: No, I'm not saying we**  **9 discuss them today. 10 MS. DANE: Okay.**  **11 MS. BARHYDT: Will that work? 12 MS. DANE: Yes.**  **13 MR. EISNER: All right. It's a 14 quarter after three. Would it be beneficial**  **15 to spend a little time, for those who are 16 still here, to -- hey, guys. What I'm**  **17 thinking is we might spend some time on 18 boilers so that the group can spend more**  **19 valuable time between now and mid September in 20 discussing this. If they get some feeling**  **21 from what's left of the big group, in terms of 22 whether we should divide the two categories up** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 338**  **1 into separate categories, but you guys know 2 this better than I do. And I'd just like to**  **3 let them have time that would be better spent**
**4 -- 5 MS. DANE: You mean to present**  **6 their issues? 7 MR. EISNER: To go over this**  **8 sheet. 9 MS. DANE: Okay. I understand.**  **10 MR. EISNER: But go over the sheet 11 and say, well, what about this or maybe we**  **12 should divide this. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, they left.**  **14 MR. EISNER: No, I'm not saying 15 make decisions. I'm saying, with everybody in**  **16 the room, maybe some ideas on what you focus 17 on or whether you should divide things up. But**  **18 if you think they are necessary, then fine. 19 MR. KLEISS: You're saying just to**  **20 present where we are to the group -- 21 MR. EISNER: This group.**  **22 MR. KLEISS: -- that's here --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 339**  **1 MR. EISNER: Right. To see if 2 they can give you some advice or make some**  **3 suggestions or ideas that you can then use 4 between now and the next meeting to modify**  **5 this proposal in some way to make it more 6 refined.**  **7 MR. SACHS: My sense is, from one 8 question, that we might let the broader group**  **9 have input to the one you raised. Is there 10 some division that would help us solidify the**  **11 subset where consensus can be built, and what 12 I'm hearing is either we're separating boilers**  **13 from water heaters or we're going to separate 14 large boilers from small boilers plus water**  **15 heaters. Is that a fair summary? 16 MR. KLEISS: The current or the**  **17 discussions that we had, we did provide some 18 delineation between different sizes of**  **19 appliances or boilers or water heaters. We 20 did not separate out boilers and water**  **21 heaters. But I think that, in some of our 22 sidebar conversations, that's been determined** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 340**  **1 as being beneficial and it is something that 2 we will be doing. That it would potentially**  **3 help to move the needle. So I believe that we 4 probably --**  **5 MR. MYERS: What would potentially 6 move the needle?**  **7 MR. KLEISS: To separate the 8 discussion into commercial water heaters and**  **9 commercial water boilers and that we might be 10 able to move things forward better with that**  **11 or at least isolate what the stalemate is to 12 even a smaller subset, which I think will be**  **13 more manageable. 14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers**  **15 with PVI. I certainly didn't hear that in any 16 of the discussions while I was there. We have**  **17 addressed the large boilers with general 18 agreement, not final agreement, on not having**  **19 a requirement above a five million. Frank 20 Stanonik with AHRI indicated that we might**  **21 consider adding in steam boilers up to a 22 somewhat larger size, and I think those are** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 341**  **1 all within the possibility. But that took 2 care of the 20 million, 40 million, and even**  **3 the 6 million BTU water boilers and water 4 heaters where it's difficult to find, if not**  **5 impossible to find, laboratories that can do 6 those tests.**  **7 So that leaves the stuff, 8 notwithstanding steam boilers, smaller than 5**  **9 million BTUs. And I didn't hear anything in 10 the conversation that lended itself towards a**  **11 delineation between water heaters and boilers, 12 one solution for water heaters, another**  **13 solution for boilers once they got down to 14 that size. Notwithstanding the fact that**  **15 there is a desire by ABMA and Cleaver-Brooks 16 to have no requirements, regardless of size,**  **17 for boilers, there was a willingness to accept 18 the lower number of tests by ABMA and by**  **19 Cleaver-Brooks with a ten percent sampling 20 rate up to two and a half million and a five**  **21 percent sampling rate above that, never being 22 less than one per year. They were willing to** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 342**  **1 -- they didn't like that. They wanted it to 2 be zero, they thought it ought to be zero, but**  **3 they were willing to flex. 4 MR. KLEISS: I agree. And my**  **5 comment is based on conversations outside of 6 the larger group, and I think there's some**  **7 potential for improvement. 8 MR. SACHS: Frank, if I might**  **9 interject. This is Harvey. My question 10 really was to each of the three of you that's**  **11 here, and I think I heard Karen and Jeff both 12 indicate that that might have the potential to**  **13 be fruitful. So I'm now asking you do you 14 think it might be a potential route that might**  **15 converge on one or the other to have separate 16 discussions about boilers and water heaters?**  **17 MR. MYERS: I don't think they're 18 separate topics, but I'm not opposed to having**  **19 discussions about them in a common group, 20 focusing on one and the other so that we can**  **21 compare and contrast. I never want to say 22 never. There might be a path there, so I'm** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 343**  

### 1 certainly willing to participate in that. I **2 haven't yet seen where there is a difference 3 once you get down below 5 million BTUs. When**  **4 I look at those products I see a common 5 entity, you know. The application is**  **6 different, but that's, again, that's just my 7 view.**  **8 MR. SACHS: Thank you. That's 9 what I was looking for. Frank's been around,**  **10 Frank Stanonik has been around a long time. 11 Can I ask for his view also?**  **12 MR. STANONIK: Well, I mean, on 13 that point, I strongly disagree because the**  **14 commercial, the bulk of the commercial water 15 heater market looks something like this and**  **16 probably fires in the range of 100,000 to 17 maybe 250 - 300, okay? Are there products**  **18 that are out here? Yes. But the bulk of 19 commercial water heater product is this tank**  **20 type of product for a tube type of product 21 that still is firing in the hundreds of**  **22 thousands, not in the millions, okay?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 344**  **1 I think there is a huge difference 2 in terms of the discussion of what kind of**  **3 verification program we would apply. Again, 4 Frank's products may be different, but the**  **5 bulk of the products are less costly. Talking 6 commercial products, they're certainly on the**  **7 range of a relatively low-priced item. You've 8 got electric water heaters we've got to throw**  **9 in there. And I think that, to me, it would 10 be easier to look at both of them as separate.**  **11 And when we get done, we can see where maybe 12 there's commonalities or whatever. But I**  **13 think they are two very different discussions 14 because, I mean, frankly, you know, the**  **15 companies that are involved in this type of 16 product will have relatively different**  **17 interests in exactly what happens with both 18 the products. And so I think, again, the**  **19 discussion would be different. 20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers.**  **21 I don't disagree with a single word that Frank 22 Stanonik just said, and I attempted during the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 345**  **1 negotiations to break out somewhat along those 2 lines with build to stock versus build to**  **3 order, which is where the commonality between 4 boilers and water heaters gets really tight**  **5 and there was little appetite back, not little 6 appetite, there was no appetite in any change**  **7 whatsoever. 8 So if we could find something like**  **9 that where there was a difference, certainly. 10 And to that regard, I understand there are**  **11 small but mass quantities of small commercial 12 boilers that are basically just residential,**  **13 sorry, water heaters are just residential 14 water heaters on steroids. They are cookie**  **15 cutter, and I have no problem with something 16 different for them than for other products.**  **17 But so far, I haven't heard any willingness to 18 get anywhere.**  **19 MR. SACHS: Frank, this is Harvey 20 again. And rattling around in my brain are**  **21 two disconnected factoids, and one of them was 22 that I thought I heard you earlier this summer** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 346**  **1 referring to a potential natural break at 140 2 gallons for water heaters and I'm more sure I**  **3 remember that there's an ASME break, but I 4 don't remember what that level is at or**  **5 whether it's BTUs per hour or gallons. 6 MR. KLEISS: A hundred and twenty,**  **7 but that's more of an enforcement thing than 8 an ASME --**  **9 MR. MYERS: No, there's actually, 10 in the AHRI program, there is a break in the**  **11 commercial section. I remember the gallons is 12 130 gallons.**  **13 MR. STANONIK: It was 500,000. 14 MR. MYERS: And 500,000 --**  **15 MR. STANONIK: BTUs per hour. 16 MR. MYERS: -- on the BTUs.**  **17 Either one of those move you into a different 18 category. So if you were less than 130 and**  **19 less than 500,000, you went into more of what 20 you're talking about, and I'd have no problem**  **21 with using some kind of definitional language 22 like that to identify difference in the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 347**  **1 program. 2 MR. SACHS: Jeff and Karen, is**  **3 that -- 4 MS. MEYERS: Well, I totally**  **5 disagree with Frank's veiled comments towards 6 me regarding, you know, I've not heard**  **7 anything -- I'm trying to work out a deal 8 here, and I've been working with other people.**  **9 You're anti, you know, comments 10 were made, derogatory comments were made**  **11 towards Rheem in the last couple of working 12 groups, one by HTP and now in your comments,**  **13 and it's not appreciated. I've not given up 14 on the negotiations. I'm still working. I've**  **15 been having conversations with others, and you 16 have repeatedly stated in this meeting that**  **17 you have not heard anything because -- and, 18 you know, that's just wrong. We haven't**  **19 broken up the other work agreements. 20 I'm trying to come up with**  **21 something that I can propose. I have to work 22 with other people within my company. I'm** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 348**  **1 going to support the verification programs 2 that are in place today that have been**  **3 effective. And your comments are just not 4 appreciated, Frank.**  **5 And, you know, when members who 6 are not part of the working group send**  **7 documents to this, to DOE and Navigant, 8 without sharing them with the working group --**  **9 I'm starting to get a little distressed here 10 and I don't, you know -- I'm still trying to**  **11 work something out and find a path forward, 12 and your comments to the contrary are not**  **13 appreciated. And that's it. I don't want to 14 listen to it anymore.**  **15 MR. MYERS: Karen, I appreciate 16 your concerns. Let me say that the document**  **17 that was sent out was not completed until a 18 few minutes before the meeting this morning**  **19 and it was under the direction of our 20 facilitator. There was no intent of saying**  **21 this is anything other than it's what we can 22 do. He asked me to do what we could do.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 349**  **1 That's what we could do. 2 With reference to you and your**  **3 company, I have not spoken any names, but if 4 I have to speak a name it is AHRI. I have not**  **5 been able to work with AHRI to get any 6 flexibility at all.**  **7 MR. TRITSIS: And that's where you 8 are wrong again. This is Bill Tritsis with**  **9 AHRI, Frank. I was in that group, and we are 10 also disappointed that there is no willingness**  **11 on your part to come to terms with issues and 12 items of integrity. Your proposals come to**  **13 that, you will not implement a verification 14 program don't stand up to scrutiny, and this**  **15 is where we disappointed in your lack of 16 cooperation here and willingness to**  **17 compromise. 18 MR. EISNER: Okay. Let me stress**  **19 that sometimes it's good to get things out in 20 the open and hear views. I'd like to stop it**  **21 right now. If the three of you would like to 22 talk further, I think I should be included,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 350**  **1 and we should sit down in a room separately 2 and talk about it. I'd be glad to do that**  **3 sometime before the next meeting. I'd be glad 4 to help over the phone. I think everybody has**  **5 got to take a step back and a deep breath. I 6 think everybody has been trying hard. Let's**  **7 keep doing that. 8 Okay. There are some other items**  **9 on the list. I'd like to hear if people have 10 any thoughts on it. One where we seem to have**  **11 a lot of options is who can conduct the tests? 12 Any thoughts on the different proposals there**  **13 or anything others would like to say about how 14 it might interact with recommendations they're**  **15 making? 16 MS. BARHYDT: What does HVAC look**  **17 at -- or had you all talked about that issue 18 yet?**  **19 MS. HOOTMAN: What? 20 MR. KLEISS: Whether or not there**  **21 needed to be witness testing, third-party 22 testing, or manufacturer --** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 351**  **1 MS. HOOTMAN: We've been working 2 on the side, but we haven't all agreed to**  **3 something, yes. 4 MR. HON: I think we don't need to**  **5 be in the middle of these conversations 6 because 17025 certified bodies are supposed to**  **7 make those decisions themselves, how they do 8 their program.**  **9 MS. BARHYDT: So you think that it 10 should be sufficient to require 17025 lab and**  **11 then that's it, it's good? 12 MR. HON: Yes, because they have**  **13 to have some flexibility on how they, because 14 they're responsible for the data that they are**  **15 certifying. And that's the nature of 17025. 16 MR. TRITSIS: We find -- this is**  **17 Bill Tritsis with AHRI. We find that there's 18 a big difference between, again, a 17025 as**  **19 being an accreditation laboratory that is 20 capable of conducting a test and a laboratory**  **21 that runs a certification program. There is 22 a different standard, and that's where the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 352**  **1 Guide 65 comes in. There has to be 2 impartiality, so, again, this is going to**  **3 depend on labs having, you know, under the 4 Energy Star or whatever other program --**  **5 MS. BARHYDT: I thought 17025 6 required independence, as well.**  **7 MS. DANE: It does. But Guide 65 8 is in place in the third-party lay-up that we**  **9 use, and I've talked to their accreditation 10 body and, when the 17065 is available, they**  **11 will be up to that, also. But that's not 12 until 2014 with a three-year implementation**  **13 period, which is in the documentation that I 14 sent you last Saturday that I had researched.**  **15 So I would say that I want to be 16 very careful that we don't misrepresent what**  **17 some of the third-party labs in our test 18 program are that we're using because they**  **19 already have that and AHRI uses the same labs 20 we do. So if it's not good enough for us to**  **21 use them, it's not good enough for AHRI to use 22 them.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 353**  **1 MR. TRITSIS: There's no 2 difference. I mean, I don't think you**  **3 understand the -- 4 MS. DANE: I'm not an idiot.**  **5 MR. TRITSIS: Look we're not saying 6 that the lab doesn't have a -- they can give**  **7 you exactly what you're going to get, okay? 8 But what we're trying to present to you here**  **9 is that there has to be a distinction between 10 the laboratory running a verification program.**  **11 There are items of impartiality that have to 12 be in place. Again, that's what this ISO 65**  **13 puts in place. 14 MS. DANE: But, again, Bill,**  **15 you're wrong because in 1995 OSHA already went 16 and put this out, and NIST has answered to it,**  **17 ANSI has answered to it. There is that that 18 exists in that data now.**  **19 Now, I understand that you're 20 trying to protect your market and your**  **21 program, and I appreciate that. But you are 22 misstating what is going on and whether or not** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 354**  **1 they have impartiality or not. They have that 2 in both systems now. So I don't know how you**  **3 can sit there and say that the lab and the 4 certification company isn't when there are**  **5 tons of government officials in groups that 6 use those same labs to verify the data.**  **7 MR. TRITSIS: I don't think you 8 understand what we are saying here.**  **9 MS. DANE: You call me stupid one 10 more time and they may have to get a room for**  **11 you and I. 12 MR. AMRANE: He didn't call you**  **13 stupid. 14 MR. TRITSIS: Did anybody call you**  **15 stupid? 16 MR. EISNER: Everybody, everybody,**  **17 again, let me bring you back to the very first 18 meeting. Questions are appropriate.**  **19 Characterizations of answers are not 20 necessarily appropriate. You don't have to**  **21 say things like you don't understand. 22 I think it's time to let everybody** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 355**  **1 go home and have a good Labor Day weekend. 2 Hopefully, we can start fresh in the middle of**  **3 September. Just think about the way you 4 respond to each other and the fact that you**  **5 can ask questions, but let's not get into 6 characterizations like we've been getting into**  **7 from people about what they understand and 8 don't understand.**  **9 So I'm sorry to end on a sad note. 10 I hope everybody has a great weekend, and we**  **11 can come back ready to smile again and get 12 some work done. Thank you.**  **13 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 14 matter was concluded at 3:34 p.m.)**  **15 16**  **17 18**  **19 20**  **21 22** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 356** 
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64:3,8,17 65:3,18 9 9 306:6 90 198:22 199:5

258:16,18 90-plus 198:22 950 1:17 98 237:20 99.5 237:22NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 395

Commercial Certification Work Group

US DOE

08-28-13

Washington, DC