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 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

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 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL

 ADVISORY COMMITTEE

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 COMMERCIAL CERTIFICATION WORK GROUP

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 WEDNESDAY

 AUGUST 28, 2013

 + + + + +

 The Work Group met in Rooms

6097-6099, 950 L'Enfant Plaza, Washington,

D.C., at 8:30 a.m., Neil Eisner, facilitating. 
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PRESENT

NEIL EISNER, Facilitator 

KARIM AMRANE, AHRI 

ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, DOE

TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice

LAURA BARHYDT, DOE General Counsel

JEFF BAUMAN, National Refrigeration and Air 

 Conditioning

MARY DANE, Traulsen

PAUL DOPPEL, Mitsubishi 

MARK FLY, AAON

GEOFFREY HALLEY, ABMA

RANDY HASEMAN, UL

CHARLES HON, True Manufacturing

JILL HOOTMAN, Trane

JOHN HURST, Lennox 

TOM JOHNSON, Daikin McQuay

JEFF KLEISS, Lochinvar

KAREN MEYERS, Rheem

FRANK MYERS, PVI Industries

PETE MOLVIE, Cleaver-Brooks

MASSOUD NESHAN, Southern CaseArts

HARVEY SACHS, ACEEE

RON SHEBIK, Hussmann*

JUDD SMITH, CSA Group

FRANK STANONIK, AHRI

LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency 

 Alliance

BILL TRITSIS, AHRI

BOB WHITWELL, Carrier

*Present via teleconference
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 8:40 a.m.

3 MR. EISNER: All right. We've got 

4 one remaining issue, more than one maybe, on

5 certification that we want to clarify so we

6 can then start talking about the report to

7 ASRAC on that. Do you want to talk to them

8 about that issue?

9 MS. BARHYDT: So we had talked

10 about this, but we had never actually created

11 a slide, and so it kind of fell off the radar,

12 and that is timing. And I know with

13 commercial equipment the timing of

14 certification has been a concern: when do you

15 file your reports? And my expectation is

16 that, for stuff that is in your catalogs, it

17 would be before you put it into your catalog,

18 the same as it would be for any other product,

19 because it's something you've already

20 designed, it's something that you routinely

21 offer. And so I would think that those basic

22 models would be certified prior to
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1 distribution and commerce, just like they are 

2 for other types of products.

3 So I think the primary issue and

4 concern is with engineer to order, but I'm not

5 positive. 

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay, yes. Well,

7 engineer to order, one other thing I was

8 thinking of is, you know, we have the yearly

9 AHR expo, you might, like, prototype and show

10 some product then. You may not be shipping it

11 all, maybe, year or something. You might have

12 catalog data out then, stamped, probably,

13 preliminary at that point. Are you saying we

14 should have it put in for then, when the

15 product isn't available for maybe another six

16 to nine months, or should we -- 

17 MS. BARHYDT: But you are offering

18 it for sale, right? 

19 MR. WHITWELL: But ratings may not

20 be finalized--

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, ratings, and it

22 would probably be stamped preliminary is what
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1 I'm saying. It would say, you know, we're

2 going to be coming out this year with da, da,

3 da, we think it will be, you know, this, and

4 it would probably be stamped, you know,

5 preliminary rating pending -- oh, production

6 might be, like, nine months to a year away. 

7 A lot of times you're just there to tout, you

8 know, that it's coming down the line.

9 MR. HON: Energy Star has a

10 separate column, availability column, for date

11 first available. You can -- like, what we do

12 is we'll prototype it, run a couple of

13 prototypes, verify the energy efficiency. 

14 We'll submit it, and we'll have a date which

15 may be three months ahead or maybe right away.

16 MR. EISNER: Do they, in any way,

17 indicate they might be preliminary?

18 MR. HON: If you have a future

19 date, they assume that it's preliminary data

20 if it's not technically the day you're

21 shipping it in, because, if you're ready to

22 ship, they want the date it's available, the
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1 day the production is ready to go. So they've

2 always accepted a future date column with a

3 date of original production. That way, you

4 can list in advance. You're telling people

5 it's not going to be ready to produce, and you

6 can make up the date however you want, even

7 though production may not be ready for it. 

8 You can still have it listed as a viable

9 product prior to that. 

10 MS. BARHYDT: But in that

11 situation, Charlie, it sounds like you've

12 built the prototype, you've tested it, and you

13 have a rating.

14 MR. HON: Yes. 

15 MS. BARHYDT: And I think what

16 they're saying is that they don't have a

17 rating yet. 

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, or we might,

19 we might. We would say preliminary. Like, we

20 believe it to be 12 EER. But in any data for

21 that, if they're announcing it at that kind of

22 AHR expo, you know, you're stamping it
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1 preliminary, available, you know, later this

2 year with final ratings, those kind of things. 

3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers

4 with PVI. In a case like that, Jill, can they

5 place an order for that product? 

6 MS. HOOTMAN: No. 

7 MR. MYERS: So in that respect,

8 it's not being entered into commerce. You're

9 simply talking about a future availability of

10 something -- 

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

12 MR. MYERS: -- and what you expect

13 that to be. It would seem that entering into

14 commerce would be when you can make something

15 available.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: When you place it,

17 yes --

18 MR. MYERS: When you accept an

19 order. Prior to that, it's talk.

20 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with

21 Mitsubishi. "Put into commerce," for those of

22 us who really put pride in it, means what it
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1 stands for.

2 MR. BALLO: That's going to have

3 its own definition of to distribute in

4 commerce. And among the things that are

5 included is to hold for sale or distribution

6 after introduction. Well, no, I guess, you're

7 right. To sell in commerce, to import, to

8 introduce, or deliver for introduction into

9 commerce or to hold for sale or distribution

10 after introduction into commerce. So,

11 basically, you're not selling it. 

12 MR. MYERS: Right. You're just

13 talking about something. 

14 MS. DANE: This is Mary from

15 Traulsen. I know that in my prior job there

16 were some things that could be shown at trade

17 shows and things like that, but we had to

18 identify it as a prototype or a trade show

19 model on the cover of it. So it wasn't

20 actually for sale, but we could take it out

21 there and show it to the market as it coming

22 out. So I know this is not, we're not
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1 reinventing something new here. It already

2 exists. 

3 MS. BARHYDT: So one thought we

4 had was, we have a model that we might be able

5 to use from the lighting products.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Because some of

7 the lighting tests take well, over a year,

8 well, just under a year to run. So they

9 can't, before distributing it in commerce,

10 they can't say I run all my testing, I had a

11 valid rating completely in accordance with the

12 DOE test procedure, but they are required to

13 certify prior to distribution in commerce

14 something.

15 MS. BARHYDT: And so, in those

16 cases, they file an initial certification

17 report that basically says, I'm offering this

18 product for sale but, basically, my data is

19 preliminary and it's an indication that it's

20 preliminary versus -- and then, within one

21 year, they're required to file the real

22 certification report. 
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1 MR. WHITWELL: But I think there's

2 a difference here, because we would not be

3 offering these for sale again. It's just to

4 give some information to potential customers

5 so they can start thinking that, they're

6 planning a building that might start

7 construction in a few months, they can start

8 thinking about what equipment they might be

9 putting into that and start getting, you know,

10 developing some building specifications around

11 that. But we would not be offering it for

12 sale at that time. We would not accept an

13 order. We can't take orders.

14 So maybe the certification ought

15 to be tied to when we have our selling tools

16 and everything in place for people to come in

17 and configure the product and actually get a

18 price on it and place an order. 

19 MS. MEYERS: I mean, if you can't

20 order it, they can't go into commerce. 

21 MS. BARHYDT: I know. I'm having

22 a little bit of difficulty with the idea that
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1 you're advertising something that someone

2 can't order. I'm still trying to wrap my head

3 around that. 

4 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with

5 Mitsubishi. You know, this is like deja vu

6 because we went, there was another rulemaking

7 we went through all this process on. And, you

8 know, commercial marketplace is a lot

9 different because engineers and architects

10 have to plan way out, sometimes a year in

11 advance, and you have to provide advanced

12 information on the products before testing may

13 even start. 

14 I mean, you're going to know the

15 basic footprints and the general capacities

16 and everything, so engineers can do those

17 sorts of plannings for space and for capacity

18 requirements that they may have for their

19 building. But you have to provide that

20 information well, well in advance of the

21 product being put on a price sheet or even in

22 tools, as Bob was mentioning, or even in the
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1 final test. 

2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers of

3 PVI. It's also worthwhile to note that this

4 is very common practice at commercial trade

5 shows, and there, many of those products that

6 are put out there to generate excitement and

7 that sort of thing, not for sale but to

8 generate interest, that never make it to

9 market. I've seen numerous products that were

10 displayed at trade shows and the

11 manufacturer's characterization of its

12 performance. You couldn't order it. You knew

13 you couldn't order it. This is like a preview

14 of potential coming products that we're

15 thinking about. And then when they get

16 further into it, you know, we can't make that

17 claim, you know, we can't build it the way we

18 thought we could or --

19 MR. FLY: Or nobody really wanted

20 it. 

21 MR. MYERS: Or nobody really

22 wanted it. You put it out there, and nobody
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1 wants it. 

2 MR. EISNER: Is there anything in

3 the information that you pass out that

4 indicates that it is preliminary or not final?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Yes, this is

6 Jill from Trane. Yeah, I mean, at least when

7 I was in the marketing department, you always

8 stamped it preliminary, prototype, you know,

9 something like that in the brochure, whatever. 

10 And now those are, a lot of times, electronic. 

11 But, you know, either way, it's pretty much

12 stamped that way.

13 MR. EISNER: Laura, does that

14 address some of your concerns if the

15 information going out about the future product

16 indicates that it's preliminary? 

17 MS. HOOTMAN: And it would never

18 have, like, the AHRI logo on it or anything

19 like that. We would never put that on it

20 because it's not -- 

21 MS. BARHYDT: But you're talking

22 about putting an efficiency rating on it, even
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1 though the efficiency rating is marked

2 preliminary. 

3 MS. MEYERS: You know, you might

4 say available in efficiencies 11 through 14

5 EER.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 

7 MS. MEYERS: You're not giving the

8 exact, you're not listing exact model numbers. 

9 You're talking usually about a group of

10 products that's going to be coming out and may

11 say, you know, available when, you know, but

12 you're not saying this has an efficiency, this

13 is certified for its efficiency. 

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So at what

15 point does it transition from preliminary to

16 something not preliminary?

17 MS. MEYERS: So, for us, when all

18 the exact -- this is Karen with Rheem. So,

19 for us, you actually, in our system, you turn,

20 you change the code to a sellable code. So

21 that makes it then you can order it and

22 there's a price out there. So once that model
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1 number gets turned on, you know, that means we

2 can now accept orders for it and that means

3 we've done all, we've filed the certification

4 reports, we, you know, we're ready to go into

5 production, everything, you know, been checked

6 on the list. 

7 MR. MYERS: So this is Frank

8 Myers, PVI. Our company, when it makes that

9 transition is when we take a product and

10 provide to our representatives that are

11 selling it, a package that includes a price

12 sheet and an authorization to fill an order. 

13 So there's a, we have a formalized process

14 where a package goes out to our

15 representative. Prior to that, it's all

16 preliminary. And I suspect most manufacturers

17 have a similar formal introduction where this

18 is now, you know, it was coming soon and then

19 it's turned to now available.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So if we set

21 it at the time when you start actually taking

22 or are willing to take an order, that will
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1 work for folks? 

2 MR. NESHAN: It wouldn't work for

3 us because we actually sell it and we design,

4 we test, and then we ship it out.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would like to

6 think that if you were having a conversation

7 about an engineer to order product that, at

8 the very least, the intention is there, right? 

9 I mean, you're not talking about a product

10 that you're going to engineer to order to not

11 meet the standard, right? 

12 MR. NESHAN: Of course, but I do

13 not have specific numbers. 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, you have to

15 have something that's close enough. I mean,

16 that's why the idea of preliminary consent. 

17 And I don't know if it's only valid for

18 engineer to order products where your

19 preliminary estimate of its efficiency is

20 this, and maybe it's the standard always

21 because, by default, it has to be that

22 efficient. And then within a year, you can
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1 come back and certify its actual efficiency,

2 and maybe it's still the standard or maybe you

3 want to find something higher. That's up to

4 you. 

5 But, preliminarily, at the very

6 least, every one should be able to say that my

7 product will be the standard level, period. 

8 I mean, you're designing, you know, and I

9 don't get it otherwise. 

10 MR. NESHAN: Right now, we cannot

11 sell a product that doesn't meet the standard,

12 period.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

14 MR. NESHAN: So if you are selling

15 it, that implies that you are complying with

16 the requirements, number one. Number two, if

17 I'm complying, I can tell you what the

18 consumption is going to be -- let me finish. 

19 We can tell you we are going to meet the

20 standard, but I cannot give you the specific

21 energy consumption. It's not an issue of

22 efficiency, it's an issue of energy
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1 consumption. 

2 MR. HON: Question: isn't that why

3 it's very handy to have an AEDM?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I mean,

5 that's the whole -- you should be able to

6 estimate something. And like I said, the

7 worst-case scenario is the standard energy

8 consumption. There is no, there is no lower

9 bar. 

10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff out of

11 National. And to protect Laura's job,

12 obviously, we all have to, if you're going to

13 sell it, you're going to have to certify that

14 product somewhere. I think the bar, as DOE is

15 suggesting, is that you have to certify the

16 product before you sell it and, initially, you

17 can certify a preliminary number that's just

18 the standard if you're not sure and then come

19 back and do that later. 

20 But somewhere you have to have

21 submitted information to DOE. You can't just

22 assume they're going to have their meets the
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1 standard and then, you know, they're going by

2 the list of what manufacturers have certified

3 versus assuming everything has been certified,

4 or that everything meets the standard.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Rusty Tharp sent in

6 a message, and he says that he believes that

7 AHRI has documented requirements for

8 preliminary ratings. 

9 MS. HOOTMAN: So one question, and

10 I realize this is another department, but when

11 an auto show happens, you know, they come out,

12 they purport I'm going to have this new

13 electric car, and it's going to have such and

14 such miles per gallon. They may never come to

15 market with that car, so how can they sit

16 there and claim such and such miles per gallon

17 when, later, they have to literally say what

18 it is and put it on the car and all that kind

19 of junk? 

20 MR. STARR: This is Lou Starr with

21 NEEA. You know, I think, in some aspects, the

22 manufacturers have an ability to have 
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1 upcoming efficiencies, it kind of helps drive

2 the market in terms of innovation, because 

3 usually, you know, you want to see what else

4 is on the market. Who else, you want,

5 usually, three manufacturers, so you want to

6 see if the competition has products. So if

7 someone is really making a claim that's maybe

8 out there, you wouldn't necessarily start

9 thinking that that's available if nobody else

10 has it.

11 So I think, in some ways, it also

12 helps in terms of seeing the code directions. 

13 It takes three years to produce a code, so you

14 have to have an idea on the general where

15 energy efficiency ratings are going. And one

16 way to see that is through upcoming products

17 that are being advertised at AHR or wherever

18 they have the product shows. 

19 MR. EISNER: But the automobiles

20 are very different, though. They can

21 advertise whatever they want. The EPA tests

22 the vehicle and the numbers are put on the car
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1 before it's sold. 

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, that's what

3 I'm saying. It's that disparity where they

4 can advertise it all the way up to the time it

5 goes in the marketplace when I can actually

6 buy that electric car, right? 

7 MR. EISNER: They can, they can

8 sell the car with any fuel efficiency they

9 want. At the end of the year, they pay

10 penalties if they didn't meet overall

11 requirements. It doesn't vary by car. It

12 generally is vehicles in certain areas have to

13 meet certain levels, so it's a different

14 enforcement. 

15 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with

16 AAON, and I just want to push something around

17 a little bit. Here I'm representing someone 

18 that's not me, from the past. But you get into

19 the custom HVAC business, it's plan-effect

20 driven. There's a specification developed

21 with an engineer, typically working with a

22 particular manufacturer, to say three people
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1 did it. This is equipment that's never been

2 built before by anybody. It's completely

3 custom. 

4 So would all three of those

5 people, before they bid on that project, have

6 to enter a listing because they're offering it

7 for sale, or do you have to enter the listing

8 before you accept the purchase order at the

9 end? Because, otherwise, you're going to

10 generate a whole lot of listings for products

11 that will never be built. And I think that's

12 not uncommon in other areas of the HVAC --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So with that, I

14 mean, if we distinguish these, right, and we

15 say, for the majority, this case works, right? 

16 I mean, for stock units, for new stock units

17 -- 

18 MR. FLY: For build to order.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: This would just be

20 commercial. This will just be the topics we're

21 talking about here, but, at least right now.

22 Because of the negotiations, right. But, you
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1 know, for engineer to order --

2 MS. MEYERS: I don't know if 

3 that's actually -- 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, individual

5 would be outside of the scope of the

6 negotiations. 

7 MS. MEYERS: Yes, but your comment

8 that this would work for the majority of

9 commercial units, I don't know that I would

10 agree with that. I mean, I think that maybe

11 it -- it may be an overstatement. 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Well, the

13 second part would be if, Laura adds something

14 that says engineer to order, and it's keyed to

15 the point of sale. In other words when you,

16 instead of when you offer it for sale, it's

17 actually when you sell. So in other words,

18 you aren't having to list a bunch of things

19 that you might sell. You are listing what you

20 have sold. 

21 MR. WHITWELL: So when you say,

22 when you sold it, you mean when it's produced
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1 and it actually goes to the customer? 

2 MR. FLY: In accounting terms,

3 it's not sold until it ships. So when you

4 talk about your best manufacturers, you know,

5 when it's been beat into us early on that a

6 sale isn't a sale until it ships. 

7 MS. MEYERS: The way we define

8 engineered to order, I think, you know, we

9 define engineered to order as something that's

10 not in a catalog and not advertised for sale. 

11 And I'm saying that the instances that we're

12 describing covers more than just engineered to

13 order. 

14 MR. EISNER: Could you repeat the

15 last part? 

16 MS. MEYERS: I'm saying the

17 marketplace realities that we are describing

18 covers more than just engineered to order

19 products. 

20 MR. FLY: Yes, I'm not sure that,

21 I'm not disagreeing with Karen at this point. 

22 I think --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, right. 

2 MR. FLY: But that is a particular

3 case that I know is going to be a problem for 

4 a certain class of manufacturers. 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That should go to

6 his point. 

7 MR. NESHAN: Except the problem

8 that we have, 80 percent of our equipment in

9 manufacturing are one of a kind. They don't

10 make two of a kind. So one custom design

11 specifically for an actual, let's say a

12 restaurant or some application. So each of

13 them would be a basic model by themself.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Could be. It

15 doesn't have to be. 

16 MR. NESHAN: According to the

17 definition that you have, it is a basic model.

18 MS. BARHYDT: No. So, again, a

19 basic model is a grouping of models that are

20 similar, not identical. And it is at the

21 manufacturer's discretion to group those. So

22 if you have, let's say, an eight-foot case
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1 that has 18 different lighting options -- 

2 MR. NESHAN: I understand that.

3 MS. BARHYDT: -- that all have

4 different consumption, you can rate them

5 together -- 

6 MR. NESHAN: I understand. But

7 that is not the case for us. Unfortunately,

8 you don't understand our business. Our

9 business is not making eight-foot cases with

10 different options. We make six with 6'2",

11 6'7", different fans, different boards,

12 different TDA and so on. Some are weird

13 shape. They don't look the same, so they are

14 not one basic model. 

15 MR. EISNER: Does the last

16 sentence in the first paragraph address your

17 concern, though? Before you ship it, you have

18 to tell DOE what the number is. 

19 MR. NESHAN: Of course. We test

20 it. As I told, we have to test to make sure,

21 we good, in a separate column, with DOE

22 numbers. We have to test, but they are one of
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1 a kind. I don't have AEDM to calculate

2 anything. But I do is, after I've already

3 accepted the order, basically, entered the

4 commerce -- 

5 MS. BARHYDT: But I'm guessing

6 that if you have a 6'2" case, that is not a

7 standard case, it's not anything that's in

8 your product offerings, and it's built to

9 spec.

10 MR. NESHAN: Correct. But then I

11 cannot have a third-party certification for

12 every piece of equipment I'm manufacturing. 

13 MS. BARHYDT: We don't require

14 third-party certification for every piece of

15 equipment you offer. 

16 MR. NESHAN: I want this to be for

17 the record. 

18 MS. BARHYDT: I just want to make

19 sure you understand that we don't --

20 MR. NESHAN: I understand.

21 MS. BARHYDT: -- actually require

22 that.
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1 MR. NESHAN: For right now, that's

2 the case. I wonder what happens next month. 

3 MS. BARHYDT: I think everyone

4 will tell you nothing, probably. 

5 MS. DANE: But, Laura, some of the

6 small manufacturers that don't have internal

7 labs would have to go to third-party

8 certifiers, so there is some concern among

9 some of labs don't have or some of the

10 manufacturers that don't have their own labs. 

11 MS. BARHYDT: In the AEDM

12 provisions, we'll allow them to make

13 estimations.

14 MS. DANE: I didn't say that they

15 knew how to use an AEDM. We'll work hard in

16 our industry to help them find the right

17 resources, but I'm saying, initially, the

18 major heart attack for manufacturers that are

19 very small will be, oh, my gosh, I don't have

20 a lab and I don't know how to use an AEDM. 

21 MR. EISNER: This is, what I'm

22 getting confused on is, I understood this to
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1 be a timing issue, and the AEDM issue had

2 already been resolved. You may need an AEDM

3 for that particular new model that you're

4 about to ship. This is the timing of when you

5 have to give that information to DOE, and

6 that's why I'm wondering why this is a new

7 problem with AEDM.

8 MR. HON: It's actually the usage

9 for AEDM, it's not any problem with it. It

10 allows you to estimate and submit and ship

11 without any testing. 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that was

13 the idea of trying to, I guess, translate what

14 you were saying into COE words. Okay.

15 MS. BARHYDT: So does that

16 definition of engineer to order work? Because

17 I just made that up on the fly. 

18 MR. MYERS: The product- this is

19 Frank from PVI. The product offering is, I

20 think, problematic because what we're saying

21 is we are offering it for sale, but we need to

22 get it and test it, you know, build it, test
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1 it so it needs to be before it ships. It

2 wouldn't be in a catalog or associated

3 marketing literature, but we might create a

4 specification sheet that puts a number on it. 

5 MS. MEYERS: Would it be covered

6 by an -- 

7 MR. MYERS: It might be, but we

8 never know what they're going to ask for, so

9 it might not. 

10 MR. HON: Okay. We spent a good

11 bit of time last night discussing this topic. 

12 And in our group, we had several other things

13 that have to be considered here. Number one

14 is just because it is engineered to order, a

15 customer calls and gives you specifications

16 particular to their application, when does it

17 leave the engineered to order classification? 

18 They call and buy one. Next month, they call

19 and buy two more. Next month, they call and

20 buy ten. 

21 It's specific to that customer. 

22 It's never in a catalog. It is a custom job
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1 for them. When does it leave the engineered

2 to order category? 

3 MR. EISNER: If you're simply

4 making a similar product, you've already given

5 DOE a number. Why do you have to give them

6 anything else? 

7 MR. HON: The question is,

8 engineered to order has some special category

9 as far as advertising and things like that. 

10 If we continue to sell the same product, we

11 would have a listed number for it, no question

12 about that. But when does it stop being an

13 engineered to order part and become an item

14 which is a custom manufactured part, which is

15 an ongoing product? 

16 MS. BARHYDT: So if I'm

17 understanding correctly, it's not an issue for

18 certification, but it is an issue of having

19 that definition in the context of verification

20 testing because, at some point, it's going to

21 not be engineered to order anymore. 

22 MR. HON: That's exactly what
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1 we're asking because verification testing says

2 you can build one, as an engineer to order,

3 and it will be not subject to verification

4 testing. Now we're looking at it and saying,

5 okay, and this happens to us, we sell a

6 product, they like it, fine. But they want

7 another one just like it. How far do we go

8 before it's no longer that product? 

9 MR. EISNER: Maybe it's just the

10 first time. 

11 MR. HON: Well, we were discussing

12 that because, quite often, you'll build one or

13 build two. But we were saying, okay, we would

14 have to list it with the DOE and it would be

15 under an engineered product, thereby not

16 subject to verification. But at the end of

17 the year, we have to re-certify the products. 

18 One of the options we discussed as the

19 possibility, at that point, you could no

20 longer leave it as an engineered product. It

21 would either have to fall off your list as no

22 longer available for sale or be moved to a
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1 different category.

2 MR. EISNER: And what are the

3 reasons you would want to keep it in the

4 engineered category if you sell more than one?

5 MR. HON: No verification testing,

6 possibly. So if DOE calls in and says we want

7 one of those, it's an engineered product, and

8 we don't have to supply it because we don't

9 know that we'll ever sell it again. 

10 MR. BALLO: But if you're

11 triggering leaving the engineered to order

12 product classification based on sales, I mean,

13 aren't you nervous about having to provide

14 sales information to the Department?

15 MR. BAUMAN: It's not based on

16 sales. The way, that was the discussion,

17 again, we had- Jeff Bauman from National- we

18 had last night, and we went around and

19 discussed, you know, sales and volumes and

20 things like that. And I think what we got to

21 was, taking all that aside and understanding

22 there's some single, we were talking about,
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1 you cannot keep a model as an engineered to

2 order model for more than two years. You'd

3 have to move it to a different classification. 

4 Yes, there's going to be some cases, maybe you

5 did sell a couple hundred, but you can't keep

6 selling that product as an engineered to order

7 because, chances are, and I think this is

8 going to go for probably outside of CRE, there

9 are probably going to be different

10 considerations for engineered to order

11 products as far as making them available to

12 the Department, potentially, for verification,

13 because an engineered to order, as John's

14 saying, he doesn't want to build that one, he

15 doesn't want to give that engineered product,

16 necessarily, for you, that you're going to use

17 and then you're going to have to throw it away

18 or whatever. But if he's selling that product

19 for multiple years, then it has to become an

20 engineered to order potentially for CRE and

21 maybe other classifications. Then it would

22 fall under validation where you might have to
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1 send that in.

2 So that's where we took it away

3 from the submitting sales, volumes, and

4 numbers. It's not perfect, but it's better

5 than leaving it ignored or, you know,

6 potential -- 

7 MR. HON: The worst case for us is

8 we take a product, we discover, we build it,

9 we ship it, we've listed it in early December,

10 we ship it in mid December, it goes out, and

11 they call again in January wanting another

12 one. And we're supposed to re-certify our

13 products. So that's the reason the two-year

14 window was in there, so, no matter what we

15 did, we still had some period of time where

16 that product would be an engineered product

17 and not subject to validation testing.

18 But that's our proposal. We don't

19 have a perfect answer for it, but it is a

20 glitch in the system that we have to get

21 because, if not, everything would stay an

22 engineered product forever.
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1 MR. FLY: Mark Fly. If you get an

2 order, then do you re-enter it as an

3 engineered to order? 

4 MR. HON: I don't believe that's a

5 fair assessment because, by then, you should,

6 you've made -- 

7 MS. BARHYDT: You didn't engineer

8 anything. 

9 MR. HON: It's a reproduction. 

10 It's a production product reproducing the same

11 -- 

12 MR. FLY: But it's very low

13 volume. 

14 MR. HON: That's the difference

15 between custom ordered and design and

16 engineered products gets touchy because we

17 don't define that difference.

18 MR. BALLO: But what's to stop a

19 manufacturer from just calling it a different

20 basic model, even though, you know, because

21 the component level -- 

22 MS. DANE: Absolutely nothing. 
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1 MR. HON: The policing mechanism

2 is almost impossible. 

3 MR. EISNER: What if a company

4 requests five or ten pieces of equipment all

5 built the same way, something you've never

6 built before? Amazon is going to build all

7 these warehouses and need refrigeration

8 equipment, so they said we want ten. Is that

9 built to order, or is that automatically

10 something else? 

11 MR. HON: To us, the first ones,

12 the first set, whether it be a hundred or ten

13 or five or one, the first purchase does not

14 potentially have follow-up purchases would be

15 engineered to order in our case.

16 MR. EISNER: Even though they're

17 ordering multiple versions? 

18 MR. HON: Yes, we've had many

19 customers come and say I want 200. We build

20 a very special 200 and never hear another word

21 from them, other than a warranty claim or

22 something like that. Never again. We'll have
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1 another customer say I want 100 of them,

2 totally different than anything we've built,

3 build one up, build 100 of them, ship them

4 out, next month we want 200, next month we

5 want 300, next month we want 200, next month

6 100. 

7 MS. DANE: We're probably not

8 going to build on the order that you're

9 describing. We're probably not going to build

10 201 and keep that one in stock just in case

11 you want to verify it later. So you almost

12 can't tie it to the quantity. You almost have

13 to tie it to the number of, you know, total

14 sales, the frequency that it goes out because

15 it is an engineer to order. But if they come

16 back and say that was great then it's fair to

17 verify.

18 MR. FLY: So if you sell it five

19 times a year, it's different than when you

20 sell it 100 times? 

21 MS. DANE: We said it wasn't

22 perfect. We're trying to find something that
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1 keeps people from cheating the system and -- 

2 MR. HON: Well, what happens if

3 you sell it every year? A customer comes by

4 and buys one, next fiscal year he buys

5 another, next fiscal year he buys another

6 because he wants to add into his stock and he

7 wants everything to match so he has standard

8 service parts. When does it leave that, when

9 does it leave custom and become a product? 

10 That's what we don't know.

11 MR. STANONIK: When you get this

12 order -- I'm trying to figure out how to ask

13 the question. When you get this order, how

14 often -- obviously, our specifying, I want a

15 product that does this, configured like this,

16 to everyone's specifications. Often, those

17 specifications include an efficiency

18 performance level. That's a secondary thing? 

19 MR. BAUMAN: If we're selling that

20 product, we have to submit some number to DOE,

21 whether we're telling the customer that or

22 not. We have to tell DOE what the number is.
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1 Another thing to keep in mind,

2 too, and, again, it's not being perfect or

3 whatever. This is why, as I said, when we're

4 talking CRE, we're hitting these issues and

5 bouncing back and forth. The other thing is

6 the idea would be, like we're talking about

7 basic models where you have different

8 lighting, different lighting, different

9 lighting. Realistically, and I'm trying to

10 make sure everybody's the same- that could

11 fall into the same basic model. That doesn't

12 necessarily even have to become an engineered

13 to order product. I don't know if we end up,

14 you know, throwing something in there about,

15 you know, an engineered to order is something

16 that would not fit in a basic model that's

17 built to order or something else. 

18 But the engineered to order, in a

19 sense, would be something that, because of its

20 size, it's physical display area, or some

21 other factor, would not fit in as a basic

22 model. I think for CRE, for the majority of
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1 these products, and you're going to have, you

2 know, one customer's ordering something that's

3 so different, so unique that it's actually got

4 different characteristics, basic

5 characteristics, that's so special, but the

6 majority, I think, of the specials are done

7 by a lot of manufacturers, not everybody, but

8 a lot of manufacturers are variations of basic

9 models, not necessarily their own. But there

10 are those cases and, for some manufacturers,

11 that's a high percentage of theirs. 

12 And, again, as I think Mark had

13 brought up yesterday, we're also trying to

14 balance that out between the complications of

15 it versus the impact on the national energy

16 consumption and things like that. Has it

17 become so, you know, are there so many models

18 out there that it's starting to affect or is

19 a significant issue that should be considered

20 by the Department? 

21 I think, again, that's where we

22 kind of came back today. If somebody is
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1 selling that for multiple years, something is

2 going on there enough that it becomes, would

3 be of interest to them. That was trying to

4 get a simple cutoff point. 

5 MR. HON: What's written here is a

6 problem because -- 

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. It just helps

8 sometimes -- 

9 MR. HON: Yes, it's good to put

10 things down. I agree. Because, basically,

11 say that we have a customer who comes up to

12 some special item, and they want to test it. 

13 And a lot of our customers are

14 multi-nationals. They will send in an order

15 for 20 pieces and 20 different addresses to

16 ship to.

17 MS. DANE: Or schools.

18 MR. HON: Yes, because they will

19 want to test it and have it multiple

20 locations, multiple climate environments, and

21 have their store manager report back how they

22 liked it. 
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1 MR. EISNER: But it's a single

2 order.

3 MR. HON: It's a single order.

4 MR. FLY: I'd say order instead of

5 shipment because a lot of large commercial

6 projects, orders or shipments are staged. You

7 know, they don't want to have to store it on

8 the site. 

9 MR. HON: Right. You have four

10 pieces going to the same location, ship one,

11 and every month or two you ship the next one. 

12 MR. FLY: They send another piece.

13 MR. EISNER: So does that work?

14 MR. HON: That works much better

15 for us, because -- 

16 MR. EISNER: Where are we,

17 everybody? What's up on the screen right now?

18 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. Is

19 there any time period for that three orders,

20 or is this -- 

21 MS. DANE: No, no, we said that

22 you had to take care of it in a year. 
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1 MR. HON: Well, you could be

2 listed on the website for no more than two

3 years, or you could put a time window on

4 there. If we had available for shipment date

5 as a column, then you could put a time window

6 of six months, a year, some window in there

7 that you can't go past to be on that mark.

8 MS. BARHYDT: But if you engineer

9 one, and let's say five years from now they

10 come back, you still already engineered it

11 before. And if five years after that, they

12 come back for more, you still already

13 engineered it before. 

14 MR. HON: But that's the question:

15 when does it come off the list as an

16 engineered product and things like that? 

17 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman

18 from National. I'm surprised, though,

19 Charlie, are you going to send DOE every year

20 how many orders you took for every product

21 built? I don't think you can use, I don't

22 think you can use a number of -- I mean,
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1 again, maybe that first order, Charlie tells

2 the guy or somebody that's not as reliable as

3 Charlie goes out and tells that guy, well,

4 give me more than three orders this year, give

5 me one order for 50 of them, rather than three

6 orders for two of them. That doesn't have, in

7 a sense, it doesn't have anything to do with

8 the volume impact. If we're not going to be

9 reporting, I don't think we want to get

10 involved in the reporting or entry systems or

11 volumes or sales columns. 

12 MS. BARHYDT: We're not suggesting

13 that you report your orders. We're saying

14 that it is a self-certification system, and,

15 yes, DOE can check things if we have, if we

16 think that people are making false statements

17 on their certifications. But we're not asking

18 you to submit certification information. 

19 We're merely saying that you know how many

20 orders you've had, and, when you exceed that,

21 you know what you are supposed to do. 

22 MR. BAUMAN: If we're going to
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1 base the definition of something that we're

2 not, industry-wide, submitting information to

3 DOE on that on a regular basis, which is fine

4 -- 

5 MS. BARHYDT: You're not sending

6 us test data on a regular basis either.

7 MR. BAUMAN: But we're not sending

8 it, telling you how many orders our order

9 entry system took that month. To me -- and

10 orders, in a basic sense, it's meaningless. 

11 Charlie tells a guy give me one order for

12 10,000 of them, and then I don't have to worry

13 about it. I mean, it has to be based on 

14 sales volume. If you're talking about any

15 number that's meaningful, you're talking about

16 sales volumes, not number of orders or

17 anything else, because, you know, Sean has

18 sold three of those, Charlie has sold 3,000 of

19 them, you know, it's worse when he's got a

20 submittal and Charlie doesn't have to do

21 anything. 

22 MS. DANE: But, Jeff, how are all
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1 the industries going to talk about engineer to

2 order then? I mean, that holds true for

3 everybody.

4 MR. BAUMAN: That's why I went

5 from a basic, if it's more than two, if we're

6 going to just do this industry-wide in a way

7 that we're submitting enough data that can be

8 easily verified, without Laura calling you up

9 and looking at sales -- and we talked about

10 this again yesterday. You know, I walk into

11 Walmart and I see every Walmart I go into, I

12 see one of Charlie's units, and I'm just using

13 Charlie because he's a big guy -- 

14 MR. HON: That's fine, I

15 understand.

16 MR. BAUMAN: -- if I go into

17 Walmart and I see this unit, and I've never

18 seen it and it doesn't show up in Charlie's

19 DOE listing, I'm going to be giving Laura a

20 call on the phone. I don't care how many

21 orders he took for that unit or whatever. 

22 That's where I'm going to be calling in. 
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1 MR. HON: Jeff, I don't have a

2 problem with you turning it in. That's the

3 right thing to do. And our product, in this

4 room, is probably, as far as commercial

5 products, is most visible because you don't

6 get up on top of the roof and look at the air

7 conditioning system. 

8 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with

9 AAON. You know, I wish that I could have a

10 design that would be valid for five years, two

11 years, or six months. But the fact of the

12 matter is, if I get another order for an

13 identical unit, even if they say it's

14 identical, I got to run it back through

15 engineering again because my suppliers have

16 changed something, the DOE regulations have

17 changed, the numbers have moved. The changes

18 causes those custom orders that aren't part of

19 a standard product line, we're afraid to build

20 it. I may not be able to build it because I

21 may not have that widget that I bought and

22 used last time because that guy went out of
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1 business or now it's built in China. 

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, I would agree,

3 Mark. We don't keep them in the standard

4 engineering databases and that kind of thing. 

5 So each time it goes back through a design

6 process. That's the nature of what -- 

7 MR. FLY: And because of the way

8 it's done, we don't even have a way of finding

9 it again most of the time, unless it's a very

10 common repeat customer that we're designing

11 something for. And at that point, then I'm

12 wondering if it's engineered to order anymore.

13 MR. HON: This is exactly why we

14 spent an extensive amount of time yesterday

15 afternoon doing this exact argument, and

16 discussions and what ifs, what ifs, what ifs. 

17 Because our niche is here, it doesn't mean it

18 fits your niche here. And that's what we're

19 getting into now, is we have every one of

20 these separate niches now falling into place,

21 and they definitely don't always agree because

22 a really big item, a really big boiler is a
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1 one-of-a-kind item, much more than ours is a

2 one-of-a-kind item. But if we make what we

3 consider one of a kind, it may be that 250 may

4 be too low for us. But they're going to have

5 to draw a line someplace, and if the 250 is a

6 number they can accept and that's workable for

7 other industries, that's fine. But if I make

8 a box fan, 250 units is nothing. 

9 MR. NESHAN: I'll give you an

10 example. A particular customer, in a period

11 of five years, we supplied seven different

12 display cases, all of them different. At the

13 end of that five-year period, which was this

14 year, they said this one doesn't fit in their

15 program. Now, imagine if I have to go through

16 all the trouble of having every single one of

17 those seven display cases all through the

18 certification process, and at the end, it's

19 not going to be used.

20 MS. MEYERS: So, Charlie, does it

21 work for your industry if an engineered to

22 order product is one that is not covered by
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1 current AEDM?

2 MR. HON: Due to some of the

3 nature of some of the things we build, the

4 combinations thereof don't really give you a

5 good indicator yet. We've yet to develop a

6 usable AEDM.

7 MS. MEYERS: It wouldn't work right

8 for the AC, I would think, but I just was

9 curious. 

10 MR. HON: I think that we have too

11 many iterations to consider them all in

12 certain, if we get too many variables into it,

13 to do an AEDM right now. We may be able to

14 develop in the future, but, at this time, we

15 have very limited amounts.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, depending

17 on the manufacturer's capability to derive

18 AEDM, it would just be hard to find an

19 equitable line. Like I say, I can't do an

20 AEDM just because they want to qualify for -- 

21 MS. MEYERS: Yes, I don't think, I

22 don't think it would work for AEDM. 
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1 MR. EISNER: Like Laura has put up

2 on the screen now is a safe harbor with an

3 addition that special circumstances you can

4 apply for a waiver. If you make your case to

5 the DOE, they'll let you continue to engineer

6 your product. There's not a basic minimum. 

7 You don't have to do anything, as long as you

8 don't exceed that. But if you do believe you 

9 have special circumstances, you apply for a

10 waiver. Again, you're making, you know, what

11 sounds like a good argument for very, very

12 different circumstances in companies.

13 MR. HON: For us, this would be

14 very seldom, if ever, used, but I understand

15 the need for other companies to have this

16 available because we have enough test

17 facilities and our test is short duration. We

18 could make it happen.

19 MR. EISNER: Would others be more

20 comfortable if the waiver language were added,

21 or do you think this is fine? 

22 MS. DANE: It might save you some
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1 time during your NOPR if the waiver language

2 was added now.

3 MS. BARHYDT: I'd rather not. 

4 MS. DANE: You'd rather not. 

5 Okay. 

6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers

7 with PVI. A two-year window was proposed that

8 exits the custom engineered category. If you

9 have that in the DOE listing proposal for two

10 years, it has to either come off or be turned

11 into a continuum. From a boiler/water heater

12 manufacturer perspective, I've been thinking

13 through the different combinations of it's

14 just one versus it's an initial order for 30,

15 and then we think that's the end of it, and

16 then the next year they say, hey, we added 17

17 more floors to this building, and now we want

18 20 more. But at some point -- 

19 MR. KLEISS: We can hear you.

20 MR. EISNER: Go ahead. 

21 MR. SHEBIK: Okay, thank you. 

22 Sorry. I'm having a hard time keeping up
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1 here. The one question I do have is where you

2 limit it to three orders per year. That's

3 going to be difficult because if we have a

4 specific type of case we build for a customer,

5 that's designed for a specific customer,

6 depending on how many stores are building a

7 year, we may give multiple orders throughout

8 the year. And once we engineer that case and

9 test it, it would be hard for me to track

10 additional orders they place if we're talking

11 about cases which may be transitional cases

12 that are put into a store and may transition

13 from one part of a lineup to another part of

14 a lineup. It's very difficult to track that,

15 as far as how the order is being placed,

16 because once we do the testing, once we

17 approve it, I have a very difficult time. I

18 may not be aware of additional orders that

19 come through for that. In my situation, it

20 would be very low volume. I don't have a

21 problem with applying 250, I do have a problem

22 with three per year. Three orders per year.
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1 MR. NESHAN: I agree with you. I

2 mean, having three orders per year, it would

3 be very difficult. I mean, I understand the

4 250, but the three orders per year would be

5 very difficult to -- I mean, we could have

6 four different orders for four different

7 stores for four different locations. And a

8 supermarket, because of the way they track

9 their capital expenditure project by project,

10 it's not a blanket purchase order to cover

11 four different display cases. 

12 MR. EISNER: So are you saying if

13 the three orders was changed to four or five,

14 you'd be okay? 

15 MR. NESHAN: I would say take the

16 three or four out, period.

17 MR. EISNER: And just say 250

18 units in one year?

19 MR. NESHAN: Whatever number you

20 want to put in, but don't put number of orders

21 because of that issue. 

22 MS. BARHYDT: So let me ask you
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1 this: if you get one order, you design it, you

2 build it, and then you get another order. Are

3 you not going back to the design you already

4 did? Are you starting all over from scratch? 

5 MR. NESHAN: No, no, no. We get,

6 actually, in one day I might get five orders

7 for the same, that basic model -- 

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

9 MR. NESHAN: -- to go to five

10 different locations. But they issue purchase

11 orders by project, not by, you know, company. 

12 MR. HON: We get blankets. 

13 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,

14 PVI. Much like some others have said, if, in

15 our company, if a product is not in the

16 catalog, it's engineer to order. If they

17 bought one yesterday that was not in the

18 catalog and they wanted one, it's engineer to

19 order. If they buy one the next day, it's not

20 in the catalog, which it's not, it would be

21 engineer to order. 

22 Obviously, we can look back, if
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1 it's that recent, and say nothing has changed,

2 we can do that again. The example I gave

3 earlier where we had an order for 30, thought

4 that was the end of it. A year later, the

5 customer came back and said, I want it just

6 like I did before, that comes to the

7 engineering process and we have to make sure

8 standards have not changed, that we can get

9 the products that we had before. And in this

10 particular case, we had to order some custom

11 controls because the controls we had used

12 previously were not available. So even though

13 it was the same thing from the customer's

14 point of view, it was a new model for us. 

15 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with

16 AAON. Reading through that, I would feel more

17 comfortable if it said a custom product model,

18 rather than a custom product, because custom

19 people are going to want to have some

20 literature saying that I do this kind of work

21 and you need to narrow it down. I think what

22 you're really trying to get at is you don't
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1 have that model listed in a catalog that says

2 I can order X, Y, Z or any marketing

3 literature, like, on a website saying you can

4 order X, Y, Z.

5 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman

6 with National. When we're talking engineered

7 to order, aren't we specifically talking about

8 an engineered to order basic model? Because,

9 if not, you can have an engineered to order

10 product that's part of another basic model. 

11 So I think we want to -- because how DOE is

12 going to know that is if you submitted that

13 basic model as its own -- you know, in my

14 mind, we're going to have a column somewhere,

15 maybe not his own public website, but he can

16 go find it if he issues the right paperwork. 

17 You're going to submit that basic model is an

18 engineered to order basic model versus other

19 basic models you could put in there. And when

20 you get that order for a refrigerated case

21 that either has different lighting or is maybe

22 two inches longer, you could fit that in your
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1 basic model as something else, and you don't

2 have to worry about anything else with DOE. 

3 It's a variation of something that fits into

4 something already submitted versus something

5 that's truly unique and engineered to order

6 product.

7 Now, again, maybe everything still

8 has to be submitted as engineered to order,

9 but it's an engineered to order basic model,

10 I think we're talking about. 

11 MS. BARHYDT: So where you have a

12 menu system and people can choose things, is

13 that engineered to order, or is that -- 

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Configure, configure

15 to order.

16 MS. BARHYDT: That's configured to

17 order. 

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And the

19 configure to order kind of menu system like

20 that, something else that I was thinking

21 about, at least I can think of a case where we

22 do that and the model number changes every
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1 single time. And I'm talking about the entire

2 model number. There are parts of the model

3 number that stay the same, but, in a way, we

4 are generating a serial number along with it

5 every single time, so it has a unique

6 attachment. Later on, people can trace it for

7 parts and all of that kind of junk like that.

8 I would say, sometimes, I'm going

9 to asterisk that out, and you're never going

10 to see that part that is that unique

11 generation every single time because it has

12 nothing to do with basic model description or

13 the energy efficiency. There are other times

14 when that is relevant, and it might be for a

15 particular customer, national account, or

16 something like that. 

17 MR. FLY: Basic models, depending

18 on what you pick, right? 

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 

20 MR. FLY: So, I mean, you've got

21 to have a pattern when you build your

22 configurations that says these fall in this
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1 group, these fall in this group, these fall in

2 this group.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: So some of us over

4 here were talking about, at least in HVAC, for

5 national accounts. We could have a

6 significant customer that comes to us and asks

7 for literally its own unique model number. No

8 one else can get that. Only that customer can

9 get that. And, of course, they come to us

10 with significant numbers, and we want to do

11 it, and all that kind of stuff. And so we'll

12 humor them and make them their own unique

13 model. 

14 If that model number for that

15 customer is the same basic model as something

16 else we're already reporting, would we need to

17 put that model number as unique for that

18 customer in certification, or would asterisks

19 of that uniqueness be okay because we're still

20 -- 

21 MS. BARHYDT: The asterisks of the

22 uniqueness are okay.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Even if those

2 asterisks are in the front part of a model

3 number?

4 MS. BARHYDT: It doesn't matter

5 where they appear, just so long as we know

6 that there was, there were variations of it. 

7 MR. WHITWELL: I think there might

8 still be an issue because the asterisk would

9 be too far upstream, and, I mean, that

10 wouldn't cover everything, right? 

11 MR. STANONIK: Laura, are you

12 assuming that when they made their

13 certification that there would be information

14 provided to DOE that would make it clear that

15 the model that started "asterisk-asterisk-ABC"

16 is, in fact, let me call it a derivative,

17 wrong word probably, of model 693ABC or some

18 -- I mean, are you assuming that you'd have

19 some information to make that relationship

20 clear? 

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So you said

22 he submitted it -- 
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1 MR. STANONIK: The normal, the

2 typical situation is you're going to have

3 model 643 and then the asterisks with all the

4 variations. But it has a base that's usually,

5 usually the same at the beginning. And so I'm

6 saying, okay, and, in this case, he's got that

7 situation, and my question is when the

8 certification is submitted is there an

9 assumption that the manufacturer is going to

10 explain or somehow identify that, in fact,

11 that first model is, let's say, a child of the

12 second? 

13 MS. BARHYDT: Our expectation is

14 if somebody submits star-star-star-A-B-C that

15 they will be offering any number of options

16 where star-star-star have other digits. And

17 so if we saw something, climbing up on the

18 rooftop and saw the model number up there, and

19 it said 893ABC, our assumption is that it is

20 star-star-star-A-B-C. 

21 MR. STANONIK: Okay. But 893ABC

22 is, in fact, from the manufacturer's
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1 perspective, what we call the core design. I

2 don't want to call it the basic model. It's

3 the core design. 893ABC is, in fact, that's

4 really kind of where they started from, and

5 somebody, a special customer came along, you

6 know, a national customer came along and said

7 I really want something that looks like

8 893ABC, but I want my own model number for God

9 knows why, and I'm willing to pay for it. And

10 it's like, okay, where do I sign kind of

11 thing, right? I mean -- 

12 MS. BARHYDT: So you have a model,

13 you have a customer who comes along and says

14 but I really want to call mine Barhydt123.

15 MR. STANONIK: Right, right.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Barhydt123 really is

17 the same basic model possibly as 893ABC. It

18 doesn't look anything like it. 

19 MR. STANONIK: What Bob was saying

20 is, okay -- 

21 MS. HOOTMAN: No one else can get

22 -- 
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1 MR. STANONIK: They're not the

2 customer, right? From their perspective,

3 Barhydt123 is, in fact, 893ABC, but they have

4 some reason they can't say, you know -- it has

5 to be reported as a separate model, so they

6 would do the --

7 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with

8 AAON. Let me push this around in a different

9 way. DOE wants anything that's entered into

10 commerce or produced and sold in commerce be

11 associated with a basic model that's listed

12 with the Department, correct? 

13 Now, it's the associated part

14 that's going to get complicated. Can I put

15 that in my literature that that is basic model

16 number one and put that on my nameplate that

17 that's basic model number one both on the

18 nameplate for 893ABC and Barhydt123, and does

19 that satisfy the requirement? Or do I have to

20 list every model number that I use in my model

21 number stream and the DOE directory somehow

22 associated with that? 
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1 MS. BARHYDT: So let me explain

2 the way it works for other products as a

3 baseline, but understand that it doesn't have

4 to work that way for these. So the way it

5 works right now, you have a basic model

6 number, which is probably going to be that,

7 based on this description. And you also have

8 to submit an individual model number, which

9 would be -- actually, let me change this. So

10 let's say we have, we're going to call it

11 basic model number ABC, and we say we have

12 individual model ABC and Barhydt123. 

13 MS. HOOTMAN: And that individual

14 model number doesn't appear, right? 

15 MS. BARHYDT: On the website?

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Does the individual

18 model number show up on the website? 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, just basic

20 model number. 

21 MS. BARHYDT: Just basic model. 

22 Okay. 
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1 MR. EISNER: And what tells you

2 that this is the same? 

3 MS. BARHYDT: So the way it's set

4 up, this is actually columns, and so you have,

5 in one row, it says basic model ABC is

6 associated with these various individual model

7 numbers. And that's the way you would certify

8 it.

9 MR. FLY: But those individual

10 model numbers may have asterisks in them or --

11 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, as that one

12 does.

13 MR. FLY: Right. 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: The idea is, like,

15 especially for the Barhydt123 --

16 MS. HOOTMAN: And you're saying it

17 doesn't show up --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, absolutely.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: And that customer,

20 which is unique and no one else can buy it,

21 would never -- 

22 MS. BARHYDT: But we know which
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1 one it goes to. 

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, but would

3 never have the confusion of somebody looking

4 on a website and saying why can't I buy -- 

5 MS. BARHYDT: A Barhydt123, yes. 

6 MS. MEYERS: So when you said you

7 know, you're saying the Department? 

8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

9 MS. MEYERS: So you have to list

10 these individual customized units with the

11 Department? 

12 MR. BALLO: I thought the

13 individual model numbers were public info.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I can't remember. 

15 MR. BALLO: I'm looking on the

16 slide, and it says that. 

17 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, it does say

18 that? Okay. 

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, there you go. 

20 That's my problem and confusion is when

21 somebody were to look at this website and say,

22 you know, why can't I buy such and such, then
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1 it becomes we have to go back and explain

2 contractual agreements, you know, that our

3 individual contractual agreements and, you

4 know --

5 MR. BAUMAN: How do they know, if

6 they go out and look at a product or an

7 inspector goes out and looks at a product and

8 says it's a Barhydt123, I don't see that in

9 the UL listing -- 

10 MR. FLY: It has a UL listing on

11 it. 

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, it has a UL

13 listing number on it, and that file then will

14 go back to ABC.

15 MR. HASEMAN: This is Randy from

16 UL. It would be either listed in the file or

17 it would be multiple listed in the paperwork

18 somewhere. 

19 MR. BAUMAN: A model number itself

20 would not directly tell them whether it's a UL

21 product or not. If they went to find the

22 model, they'd have to go to your file -
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1 MR. FLY: But the listing, the

2 listing shows that it's listed. 

3 MR. BAUMAN: If you can do a

4 search on your site by model number. 

5 (Simultaneous speaking.)

6 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr

7 with NEEA. You know, from someone who used to

8 go out and pull model numbers all day off of

9 equipment and when you go back and do a

10 redesign of the stuff, when you can't find out

11 what that equipment and what the performance

12 is, normally when I used to do Google searches

13 I would start out, I'd always use the first

14 six or seven digits to help me find stuff. It

15 makes it very hard for people to come back and

16 do redesign of stuff. And when you have

17 Barhydt123, that's the same as you really, you

18 know, it makes it very difficult. And I

19 understand maybe why they're doing it, but it

20 kind of, it creates a lot of problems down the

21 road, I'll just say, not having a model number

22 that reflects what's the equipment performance
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1 or a way to find that somehow. 

2 MS. BARHYDT: So would it help you

3 all, I don't know if it will help me, but

4 would it help you all if we dispensed with

5 this but required you to provide this on all

6 products? 

7 MR. FLY: On all product

8 identification.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So that if -- 

10 MS. HOOTMAN: It had to be labeled

11 on -- 

12 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, so that the

13 product has to have the basic model number,

14 but the basic model number -- 

15 MR. BALLO: The product and the

16 literature. 

17 MS. HOOTMAN: No, I don't want to

18 change labels. 

19 MS. BARHYDT: It was a thought. 

20 MR. BALLO: That's an IT project.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: That's why I said,

22 you don't want to know the time that it would
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1 take to get that done. 

2 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman. 

3 I'm going to go back again to my question

4 about the safety listing. I mean, we're all

5 concerned in energy efficiency, and it's

6 important, but, as we talked about, safety we

7 think is -- and they found a way to do this

8 with safety that somebody who went and find

9 Jill's product or Bob's product and, from that

10 tag, go back and called and, in some cases,

11 and I didn't realize this, but you may not

12 find that. When Louis goes out to look at

13 that product, if he was a safety inspector

14 versus an energy inspector, that he's going to

15 have to call up UL and give them the

16 information for that. And in this case, you

17 know, getting more job security, they're going

18 to have to call Laura instead of UL up to find

19 out what that model and, indeed, make sure

20 that that model is covered under some basic

21 model. 

22 MR. STANONIK: Jill, if that
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1 listing showed up, Barhydt123, if that showed

2 up in a directory, is your only concern that

3 somebody might order one and you can't sell

4 it, you can't sell it with that model number

5 to them? 

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And any

7 contractual agreement I might have over that. 

8 MR. STANONIK: Well, wait a

9 minute. But the premise here was that, in

10 fact, it is the same as ABC. You just had to

11 give it a separate model number because that's

12 what your customer asked for. 

13 MS. HOOTMAN: It's the same as ABC

14 as far as the basic model is concerned, but

15 that customer might want to know what are the

16 other unique features of it and can I have it? 

17 And, again, I don't want to expose my

18 contractual agreement that might happen on

19 that unique one. 

20 MS. MEYERS: This is Frank Meyers

21 of PVI. This situation has existed for quite

22 some while in California. I don't know if
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1 anyone else does it for California Energy

2 Commission, but we actually have models that

3 we identify, I'll say yellowbird123, and

4 there's a yellowbird456 and a yellowbird789. 

5 And on our decal, and I understand it's a

6 reprint and we had to go through that, but it

7 was worthwhile for us. And we actually

8 certified the YB123, YB456, and we identified

9 on the decal as the CEC model number, because

10 they want their model number, and then we put

11 in what the customer wants it, using your

12 example, in the one that just says model

13 number. 

14 So if you're looking for the

15 listing of what -- and we advertise it. When

16 we show Barhydt123, it would say CEC YB123. 

17 So if you want to know what the performance

18 is, you go look at YB123, and that will tell

19 you exactly what the performance is. And then

20 we actually link that on our literature to the

21 Barhydt123. So we identify the performance

22 with one number and then -- well, and I
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1 understand the difficulty. I do understand

2 it. 

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Or you're looking at

4 three years. I mean, it's a long time. Those

5 things have to get reprogrammed. It is a long

6 time to re-label. 

7 MS. BARHYDT: So Jill has a

8 concern about -- 

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Even when I have

10 lots of business.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Jill has a concern

12 about displaying individual model number on

13 the website. Bob, was yours the opposite,

14 that your concern was not showing individual

15 -- 

16 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I had two

17 concerns. One is showing individual model

18 numbers, and the other was that I wasn't

19 clear, I clarified that, but I was concerned

20 about some of our engineer to order products,

21 whether we had enough commonality with our

22 standard products. But I'm okay with that
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1 now. 

2 MR. HON: Well, let me ask one

3 question. If I see, if I'm a government

4 official and I see ABC is the basic model

5 number. Then I can go into the catalog, and

6 every place there's an asterisk in there I can

7 put in whatever option I want to put in there 

8 and order it and get one for verification

9 testing, which could be the most

10 energy-consuming factors in the catalog. 

11 MS. BARHYDT: Provided it's not

12 one of the things that we've agreed not to --

13 MR. HON: To test.

14 MS. BARHYDT: -- test. 

15 MR. HON: That agreement goes

16 until the next rulemaking, correct?

17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Well, until

18 the next standard, yes. 

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Just to clarify

20 something, I mean, because Tim had said, right

21 now what we have is individual model number is

22 showing up, but it would be, I was going to
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1 say it would be our desire, at least my

2 desire, that it does not show up. And then I

3 can cover these issues that I have on the

4 contractual agreements. 

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, Tim. So I saw

6 you reacting a little bit there. Is your

7 concern that you'll then see a unit that says

8 Barhydt123, and you won't be able to tie that

9 back to ABC? 

10 MR. BALLO: Yes. 

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 

12 MR. BALLO: I mean, I'm not

13 adverse to the other option of, you know,

14 somewhere on that unit is stamped basic model

15 ABC. I understand that's -- to me, leaving it

16 up to the manufacturers to do one or the other

17 would be fine but --

18 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,

19 PVI. I like the thinking that that might be

20 an option, you could do it one way or the

21 other. The reason that we did this on a

22 couple of model families with CEC is we have
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1 variations in the model number that would be

2 very difficult to track, and we would have

3 been putting into their listing probably 20 or

4 30,000 model numbers. Now we put in maybe 20

5 with this designation, but that number is

6 stamped in our literature for every one of

7 these 20,000 models and it's stamped on the

8 product. So that really works for some

9 manufacturers. 

10 MS. MEYERS: If we have to do

11 this, you're getting back into trillions of

12 combinations. 

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, with asterisks. 

14 You have a trillion with asterisks. 

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Actually, I came up

16 with 1.6 million but -- 

17 MR. EISNER: Maybe I'm limited by

18 thinking about commercial products for

19 consumers in general, but when you make a

20 replacement part for the Barhydt and the ABC

21 model and it fits both, do you label it in

22 such a way that the owner of the product knows
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1 it will fit this model or that model, or do

2 you hide the model that's made especially for

3 one -- 

4 MS. HOOTMAN: It's all tracked off

5 the serial number. The serial number comes

6 back through the system, and they can, they

7 can tell the difference between the two. 

8 MR. FLY: And you have to actually

9 look on a work order to find the internal

10 parts. 

11 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,

12 PVI. That characterization certainly fits our

13 mode. If someone wants a part, a replacement

14 part, or a replacement assembly from us,

15 they'll have to provide the serial number, and

16 we go back and look at the work orders and say

17 here's how that unit was actually put

18 together, and then you can provide them the

19 appropriate part. 

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Like a VIN number. 

21 MR. EISNER: They come into you in

22 order to get the part and you tell them this
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1 will fit, rather than having a product that's

2 labeled to fit either machine. 

3 MR. AMRANE: Maybe one suggestion

4 here. If, for example, as a manufacturer, you

5 supply the model number, this will not be

6 visible on the website but would be something

7 that DOE will have. And if you're interested

8 in that model number, you could contact DOE

9 and ask for it.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: And, actually, they

11 should understand that because they get those

12 kind of questions right now. 

13 MS. BARHYDT: So how are you doing

14 it? 

15 MR. AMRANE: That's a good

16 question. 

17 MR. KLEISS: Help me understand

18 this. How do you market and advertise these? 

19 How do you identify them as being part of a

20 product family? 

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. So Barhydt123

22 is not marketed. It's a unique customer that
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1 came in and said I'm going to give you a

2 million dollars of business if you will make

3 me this, and it needs to be called Barhydt123. 

4 And we say, for a million dollars, we'll do

5 it. It's not in a catalog. 

6 MR. STANONIK: It's not being

7 private branded. They're being made with

8 whatever and installed for that customer,

9 right? They're not being further sold? 

10 MS. HOOTMAN: There's not a

11 private brand on it or anything like that, but

12 they just wanted a unique model. 

13 MR. EISNER: When you do that,

14 does that go directly to the company that's

15 going to use it or does it go to a

16 distributor, like a Sears?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, it could be

18 both.

19 MR. EISNER: Well, how does Sears

20 sell it?

21 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not the

22 distributor, not to Sears, per se. It's not
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1 to somebody who is going to -- it's to a

2 contractor --

3 MR. EISNER: Who's going to put it

4 in a building.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: -- or through our

6 independent wholesale distributors who are

7 then going to sell to a contractor. 

8 MR. EISNER: Will a wholesale

9 distributor have repair parts for -- 

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, that's --

11 MR. EISNER: -- Barhydt and --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: -- their --

13 MR. EISNER: And how does the

14 distributor know?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: The serial numbers.

16 MR. EISNER: The same way you

17 know? They have to come in with a serial

18 number.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Serial number. All

20 the parts, regardless of where the parts come

21 in, because they can be company owned or

22 independent, also. 
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, it really

2 just takes two groupings, right? 

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's why --

5 I mean, that's the question to you guys. 

6 Right now, you run a program that if something 

7 falls in the grouping that a manufacturer has

8 elected, it causes some action to a lot

9 broader spectrum. So how do you do that? How

10 do you -- what is that process now for

11 identifying what that broader spectrum is from

12 the election made by the manufacturer? 

13 Because it's the same thing we're trying to do

14 here. 

15 MS. BARHYDT: Would they still not

16 tell you about Barhydt123? 

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, wait a minute. 

18 Would I? Because, was it my basic model, ABC

19 asterisk, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. I'm saying

20 that Barhydt123 is the same as basic model

21 dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. 

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And, you
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1 know, customers are not going to be looking

2 for that model on this AHRI directory anyway

3 because it's not available to them. You know,

4 these are not available to just anybody. 

5 They're specially -- 

6 MS. HOOTMAN: And if you want to

7 put them on the spot, I mean, it's been years

8 ago, but we had that. And I remember I wrote

9 the letter to you guys that said this is this,

10 this is this, it's unique for this customer,

11 but it is exactly this, and here's the UL file

12 and here's the actual file that shows that

13 they're exactly the same. 

14 MS. MEYERS: It's like you're

15 building a specialized unit for the, you know,

16 for the Olympics for the luge competition

17 that's going to be held in the United States. 

18 It's a special-ordered unit, or it could even

19 be a special building for a national account. 

20 Those are the types of things that you get

21 into. 

22 MR. EISNER: You sold your
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1 equipment to a company that wanted to put it

2 in ten buildings. It sold one of the

3 buildings, and Barhydt bought one of those

4 buildings and saw the model number on there. 

5 How do they work with you to -- 

6 MS. HOOTMAN: They have to come

7 back to the serial number.

8 MR. EISNER: They come back with

9 the serial number, but they say I want to know

10 how this is different from other products or

11 something like that, would you tell them? 

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, you could, back

13 through the serial number. 

14 MR. EISNER: But, in other words,

15 you wouldn't keep that secret, that all the

16 other --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, I mean --

18 MR. EISNER: -- special machines

19 in the other buildings --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: -- we'd say you

21 bought the Barhydt, you know, building, didn't

22 you? Because we made that for Barhydt. 
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1 MR. DOPPEL: There would be other

2 basic information on that label, like the

3 voltage, the capacity. I mean, that's already

4 on the product label. 

5 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr at

6 NEEA. Just from doing a lot of that work,

7 well, Trane is still in business but a lot of

8 other companies aren't. You go out and look

9 at the equipment, look at the model number,

10 and you'll have the serial number. If the

11 company is still in business, you can call

12 them up and, with the serial number, get the

13 information on that particular model. But all

14 of them aren't in business anymore and so --

15 MR. AMRANE: But the DOE doesn't

16 --

17 MR. STARR: Well, to the extent, a

18 lot of times you can look up, with the model

19 numbers you can find a lot of stuff just on

20 Google. But if you've got Barhydt123, you're

21 not probably going to find information. It's

22 not available. 
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1 MR. DOPPEL: But the label has to

2 have the capacity and the voltage on it. 

3 MR. STARR: It's not going to have

4 all the kind of stuff that they're trying to

5 hide or don't want people to know, just the

6 stuff that you'd put in -- 

7 MR. DOPPEL: What else would you

8 need? 

9 MR. STARR: Well, you actually

10 need to know what the components of the

11 equipment are in there, how many refrigeration

12 circuits, I mean, what pressure size. I mean,

13 the stuff, if the model number had the stuff

14 in it, they wouldn't need to, they could just

15 open and look in the piece of equipment to

16 figure out what's special about, you know, the

17 control sequences, you know. The efficiency

18 of how that thing works is the main thing

19 you're looking for. 

20 MR. DOPPEL: But the DOE listing

21 of products should not be the source for that

22 kind of information.
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1 MR. STARR: Well, I'm just talking

2 about the model number, being able to figure

3 out --

4 MR. DOPPEL: Well, I know, but

5 that should not be the -- 

6 MS. HOOTMAN: A replacement 10 and

7 15 years down the road, if that model is out

8 of existence, it's not on the DOE website

9 anymore. 

10 MS. MEYERS: And this is Karen

11 with Rheem. I do not want you to be able to

12 determine that information from the model

13 number, how I get my efficient -- that's

14 design information, and that should not be

15 easily, I mean that's like giving you my

16 prints. 

17 MR. STARR: Well, just even

18 knowing the efficiency would be helpful. 

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, but you're not

20 going to go back to the DOE website for the

21 efficiency because it would have been taken

22 out of there. 
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1 MR. STARR: And it's not the DOE

2 website I'm necessarily talking about. It's

3 just having a model number that actually means

4 something. It helps it identify what you have

5 and, you know -- 

6 MS. HOOTMAN: I understand, yes. 

7 We get calls on replacement all the time.

8 MR. STARR: I mean, especially if

9 you go back -- 

10 MS. HOOTMAN: And I think each of

11 us have done different little databases on our

12 own to try and figure out stuff. But, you

13 know, that's curb adapters and, you know, all

14 the people that do that -- 

15 MR. STARR: I mean, there's a lot

16 of engineering design. You have to know

17 what's there in order to start redesigning. 

18 You have to know fan, motor -- a whole bunch

19 of stuff. You could spend all day looking at

20 the unit, but, usually, you don't have that

21 much fee to do it and you're still, at that

22 point, guessing. 
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1 MR. DOPPEL: I think we just have

2 to set aside that the DOE listing of products

3 is not going to be a source for replacement

4 because, again, as Jill said, those models, by

5 the time a replacement comes, those models

6 will no longer be on that list. 

7 MS. HOOTMAN: If we're still in

8 business and we're -- 

9 MR. EISNER: If the solution to

10 your problem and industry's problem is whether

11 it should be posted on the DOE website, what

12 is the problem with not posting it on the DOE

13 website? Why don't we focus on that for a few

14 minutes? 

15 MR. BALLO: I guess my concern is

16 seeing a listing for a product and not being

17 able to trace it back to make sure it's been

18 certified to DOE. 

19 MR. EISNER: Where would you see

20 the listing for the product? 

21 MR. BALLO: If it's a product

22 that's never going to be marketed, then that's
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1 obviously not something I'm ever going to see.

2 MS. BARHYDT: You're not climbing

3 on top of those buildings?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not going to

5 be your focus either because the numbers of

6 those sold are going to be low, the impact of

7 them. It's not negligible, but it's not going

8 to be your -- 

9 MR. BALLO: So I guess, you know,

10 I've heard that it's going to take a few

11 years, it would take a few years, extra time

12 to implement a system that would enable this

13 kind of checking. And I'm wondering if that's

14 a possibility, if there was a further date

15 out, another six months to a year beyond the

16 18 months, after which there would have to be

17 some sort of a, you know, a marketing

18 requirement or a product literature

19 requirement that would enable the tracing back

20 from model number or from the model back to

21 the basic model. 

22 MR. DOPPEL: What are you trying
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1 to get? I mean, because we're talking about

2 basic models, and these things are all, you

3 know, variations off of basic models. So if

4 the basic model is listed, I mean, what does

5 this other stuff matter? 

6 MR. BALLO: I'm concerned, I guess

7 I'm concerned about code compliance, if that,

8 if that would be helpful for code compliance. 

9 And I don't know, but that's my hunch that it

10 could be. 

11 MR. DOPPEL: It's all for the

12 basic model, and that's everything that we've

13 talked in here so far about having basic model

14 definition. You know, then anything, like

15 we've gone through all the accessory items. 

16 A lot of these one-offs that they're doing or

17 the engineered models are just adding

18 different types of controls, different color

19 for panels, different markings, stuff like

20 that. It's not changing the refrigeration

21 system. 

22 MS. MEYERS: And, Tim, I don't
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1 think you can put that burden on the

2 manufacturers, code compliance. 

3 MR. BALLO: No, I'm not. I'm

4 saying for someone who's out trying to verify

5 code compliance, if they have an ability to

6 identify the efficiency of the unit that they

7 see -- 

8 MS. MEYERS: I know. But to make

9 your job easier, you're trying to increase the

10 burden on manufacturers by a tremendous

11 amount. 

12 MR. BALLO: I'm not saying to make

13 the job easier. I'm saying to make the job

14 possible, to verify code compliance. 

15 MS. MEYERS: Okay. So, still,

16 that burden is coming back to the

17 manufacturer.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, a building

19 code person is looking at it from the

20 submittals, right? 

21 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. It makes it

22 different. This is not the way that code
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1 should be verified. They'll look at the

2 blueprints, if it's how it's specified -- 

3 MR. STARR: Well, you should be

4 looking at the -- that's one of the things

5 that happens: you get the submittal and the

6 piece of equipment on the roof is not what's

7 on the submittal. That's an other thing that

8 happens. They'll go through the code

9 department to send the submittals in, and the

10 contractor will have gotten, instead of

11 putting XY unit up, they'll put something

12 different then the submittal. 

13 MS. HOOTMAN: And that's the

14 contractor's job to show that what he -- 

15 MR. STARR: Well, it usually comes

16 to the engineer's job because it doesn't

17 perform because they put in a cheaper model. 

18 And then you go up, and, when you start to

19 have engineering problems, the first thing you

20 look is to see what's on the submittal is

21 actually what's on the roof. 

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, and that's what
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1 I'm saying is it's between the contractor and

2 engineer. The contractor put something in

3 wrong, the engineer of record will have to

4 certify that what he specified was put in or

5 substituted. 

6 MR. STARR: But to the extent that

7 the code official can't identify what's on the

8 submittal, that's also how they check out to

9 see. When they go to do their code walks,

10 they're going to use -- hopefully, they'll be

11 some way just to see efficiency on the label

12 and that will help out. 

13 MS. HOOTMAN: But the code

14 official is not just looking for efficiency. 

15 That's --

16 MR. STARR: Yes.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, they're

18 looking for a lot of other things. Now, was

19 the right electrical pulled? Was the right

20 overcurrent protection pulled? Was it, you

21 know -- I mean, there's all the other stuff,

22 so they're not just looking for that. And
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1 those submittals, whether they're right or

2 wrong, a substitution happened, have to have

3 all that information on it so that they can

4 say that all that is done. 

5 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with

6 Mitsubishi. So if it's a national account

7 job, then there's not going to be a

8 substitution for some other equipment. I

9 mean, that just, that just won't happen. 

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Or a special

11 customer, whatever.

12 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, or if it's a

13 special customer, there's not going to be a

14 substitute. 

15 MR. STARR: Well, they get them

16 mixed up. This unit is over here, and this

17 one is over here. 

18 MR. DOPPEL: Well, you know, the

19 manufacturer can't help that.

20 MR. STARR: No. But, I mean, the

21 ability to identify a piece of paper to what's

22 on the roof is, you know, you do need
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1 something.

2 MR. WHITWELL: They should be able

3 to do that because the model number and the

4 designation on the piece of paper should match

5 what's on the roof, right? 

6 MR. STARR: Well, they get things

7 mixed up. 

8 MR. WHITWELL: Well, then if they

9 get mixed up then they know, hey, this doesn't

10 match, you know. 

11 MS. HOOTMAN: The contractor has

12 to come out and be responsible for that. 

13 MR. STARR: I mean, you want

14 something on the piece of paper to somehow

15 identify with the piece of equipment up there. 

16 Now, hopefully, maybe this -- 

17 MR. WHITWELL: It will be the

18 Barhydt123. 

19 MR. STARR: But if they're all

20 Barhydt123's, you know, if it's the same model

21 or if there's variations of that Barhydt -- 

22 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe there would
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1 be a Barhydt123, there would be a Barhydt124,

2 you know. 

3 MR. EISNER: Louis, you're talking

4 about somebody who's going in and looking at

5 the piece of equipment and wanting to know

6 about that piece of equipment and can't find

7 the model number listed on the DOE website? 

8 MR. STARR: Well, no. I'm talking

9 about just the code aspect of looking at stuff

10 and identifying a piece of paper to the

11 equipment. 

12 (Simultaneous speaking.)

13 MR. EISNER: Guys, those side

14 conversations, the court reporter, he doubles

15 his fee. 

16 (Laughter.)

17 MR. AMRANE: I think we are, we're

18 talking about adding cost for, you know,

19 another label or whatever, something that

20 might not even be an issue. So let's focus on

21 the main thing. I don't know. I mean, do you

22 really need that model number? 
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1 MS. MEYERS: The model number is

2 on the nameplate on the unit. So if you need

3 the model number, you can climb up on the roof

4 and look at the nameplate on the unit, and you

5 get the model number. 

6 MR. STARR: And you can get the

7 efficiency somehow, correct? 

8 MS. MEYERS: Well, you can become

9 a Rheem contractor and you can call us and we

10 can come, you know -- 

11 MR. STARR: So how does a code

12 official walk up on the roof and look at the

13 model number to determine that this is a

14 serial -- 

15 MR. EISNER: Can somebody online

16 who's talking mute your phone? 

17 MR. STARR: Okay. EER. Sorry. 

18 Well, no, I mean, that's a question. That is

19 something they do. 

20 MS. MEYERS: But the code official

21 should have done that homework before he

22 allowed the unit to be installed. So then
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1 he's got -- 

2 MR. STARR: In other words, on the

3 submittal.

4 MS. MEYERS: Right. That

5 information is done before the unit is

6 installed if the code official is following

7 the proper procedures in his town. And they

8 differ by city. Building codes differ by

9 city.

10 MR. STARR: Well, it's basically

11 just a submittal that the energy efficiency is

12 going to be listed; is that right? 

13 MS. MEYERS: It differs by city. 

14 MR. STARR: Is that on the

15 Barhydt123? Will they have the energy

16 efficiency rating? 

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Not on the

18 nameplate. 

19 MR. STARR: No, on the submittal.

20 MS. MEYERS: Yes, on submittal. 

21 If that current, if that building code in that

22 city requires it, it will. 
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1 MR. BALLO: But would the

2 submittal have the basic model?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: No. 

4 MR. BAUMAN: So you get there, but

5 you might have to go through UL to get there.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Ron, go ahead. 

7 MR. SHEBIK: Yes, I'm sorry. 

8 Manufacturers will label products with basic

9 model. Is that labeling -- I'm sorry? 

10 MS. BARHYDT: That was just a

11 thought, Ron. There was some discussion. I

12 typed that up there because someone suggested

13 it, but we haven't even discussed it yet. 

14 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. I would be,

15 obviously, I'd be opposed, very opposed to any

16 changes on the nameplate because that would be

17 a nightmare for us to do. It could be an

18 additional label. That could be discussed,

19 but anything on the nameplate I'd be very

20 opposed to. 

21 MR. NESHAN: To add to that, it's

22 not only just for us but also our customers
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1 are using that model number in their system. 

2 They have to go and make changes in their

3 purchasing department how they place orders. 

4 So it's going to be very costly all around. 

5 MR. BALLO: So I guess,

6 provisionally, I'm okay with going forward

7 where we would only have the ability to trace

8 anything that shows up on the literature or

9 the manufacturer's website back to the DOE

10 website, so the Barhydt123 would not have to

11 be traceable. I just, I guess I need to talk

12 to more people who do code work and see if

13 they have any concerns about that. But it

14 sounds like it's a pretty small issue. 

15 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with

16 AHRI. I just want to make sure, I just want

17 to confirm something. So, Jill, in your case,

18 if you had the Barhydt123, when you have that

19 situation, does the unique model number you

20 provided, does it include the core of your

21 basic model, the ABC? 

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 
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1 MR. STANONIK: It does? So the

2 example -- 

3 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, I thought you

4 were saying it was something entirely

5 different. 

6 MS. HOOTMAN: No. 

7 MR. STANONIK: Your example is a

8 little misleading -- 

9 MS. HOOTMAN: ABC is the -- 

10 MR. STANONIK: In her case, it

11 would still retain the basic model

12 designation, the core of the designation. 

13 Well, no, it didn't start with it. It started

14 with the Barhydt because that's what the

15 customer wanted. But still within there is

16 those, in this case, those three magic letters

17 that say this is, in fact, a basic model ABC,

18 right? In your situation. 

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, BarhydtABC that

20 you just put up there is the same basic

21 refrigeration as the basic model. In fact, it

22 might even be exactly the same, but, Laura,
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1 you were very particular and you wanted your

2 name on it in the model number. 

3 MR. STANONIK: But when you did

4 that, your model numbers still have those

5 three magic letters, right? 

6 MS. HOOTMAN: What's that?

7 MR. STANONIK: But when you did

8 it, that model number would still have those

9 key three letters, they would just be out of

10 sequence.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: No, nope, it would

12 not have those letters at all. 

13 MR. STANONIK: Pardon me?

14 MS. HOOTMAN: It would not have

15 ABC at all. 

16 MR. STANONIK: I asked you the

17 first time -- 

18 MS. MEYERS: I mean, it may be

19 tied together in my system, Frank, but it may

20 not be what's printed on -- 

21 MR. STANONIK: Okay. So it

22 wouldn't be on the label. All right. 
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1 MS. MEYERS: It could, but it may

2 not.

3 MR. STANONIK: It may not, okay. 

4 MR. WHITWELL: It depends on what

5 the customer asks for. 

6 MR. STANONIK: All right, okay. I

7 was -- 

8 MS. MEYERS: I would be able to

9 link Barhydt123 back to a number in my system.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Think of almost

11 Barhydt123 as it's a green unit and the rest

12 of the units are purple. And everything else

13 about it is the same, but there is no

14 distinguishing factor, except that Barhydt123

15 is now green. 

16 MR. STARR: How many of these

17 units are Barhydt, percentage wise, how many

18 of these are Barhydt123's? Are we talking,

19 like, five percent, three percent? I mean,

20 maybe it's such a small percentage it doesn't

21 really.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, I mean, it may
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1 be one customer in a million, but, I mean,

2 we've got a significant marketplace, right? 

3 A billion marketplace here that we're talking

4 about, so.

5 MR. FLY: Yes, this is Mark Fly. 

6 Jill, you had to go add that to your UL

7 listing report on the safety side, though?

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 

9 MR. FLY: And you had to, I'll

10 call you and I'll say, hey, I'm adding

11 Barhydt123 to this listing report in this

12 group of products and it's built just the same

13 so you don't have to come out and visit me

14 again. 

15 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 

16 MR. FLY: So that's the way we're

17 handling it today on the safety side of the

18 house. 

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, but realize

20 that safety and the energy aren't always

21 linked. 

22 MR. FLY: Or done the same way.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Or done the same

2 way. 

3 MR. EISNER: So do we have general

4 consensus on whatever it is we've agreed to? 

5 MR. STARR: It does seem like it's

6 a small, perhaps a small percentage of the

7 market, and it would be preferable to have it

8 where you could actually identify something on

9 the equipment, but as long as you can link a

10 submittal to a piece of equipment on the roof,

11 and it sounds like you can, then, in theory,

12 you have ways to check things. I guess it

13 does depend on what shows up on these

14 Barhydt123 submittals, but as long as it's the

15 performance that's required, efficiency

16 performance and some of those things, and I

17 think that has to be on the submittal, right? 

18 I mean, do they know that the, I mean, the

19 SEER rating, I mean, how does a code official

20 or an engineer know that the SEER rating is

21 the EER rating? 

22 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't know of a
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1 case right now, but let's put it this way: if

2 Laura came in and said I don't want energy

3 efficiency on my submittal, I'd probably

4 customize her submittal and I wouldn't show

5 her energy efficiency in her submittal. I

6 generate a submittal for each customer so --

7 MR. STARR: Okay. How does a code

8 official ensure that the EER rating for a

9 piece of equipment is correct? Just say I'm

10 a code official and I'm coming to your

11 building -- 

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, that, I mean,

13 that would be up to that customer to have

14 those discussions or do something. It is

15 their responsibility to have -- 

16 MR. AMRANE: They will ask for it.

17 MR. STARR: They will ask for it. 

18 I mean -- 

19 MR. AMRANE: They have to show it

20 to the code official.

21 MR. STARR: They have to do it

22 every time. It's part of the energy code. 
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1 So, I mean, you don't -- 

2 MS. HOOTMAN: I understand that,

3 Louis. What I'm saying is I don't have any

4 problem, as a manufacturer, if that customer

5 wants to deal with his installation, his code,

6 his certification, etcetera. I don't have any

7 problem, as a manufacturer, saying, yes, I'll

8 make it and I'll give you a submittal and it

9 won't have that information on it. It's not,

10 it's their responsibility. I sold it to them. 

11 They are the ones who are going to have to

12 pull the permit, deal with the code official,

13 etcetera. It's not my job to deal with that.

14 MR. STARR: So we have to rely on

15 them complying with the code to make sure the

16 right information is on the submittal in order

17 for it. Okay.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not saying it's

19 a wise thing, but I'm not going to say I'm not

20 going to do it. 

21 MR. STARR: I think it will take

22 care of itself.
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1 MR. EISNER: Does this bring us

2 back to the prior slide? Okay. We're back to

3 this. Let's see if we can get resolution to

4 this so we can take a break. I'm not going to

5 let you go until we have resolution. Where

6 are we on this, people? Yes? 

7 MR. NESHAN: I just need to make a

8 comment. Where you put that at more than

9 three months during a one-year period? 

10 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So I changed

11 the words, so everybody should sit and read

12 this because there are actually multiple

13 options on here.

14 MR. NESHAN: The only problem is

15 you're assuming we would be able to engineer,

16 build it, test it in a three-month period. 

17 That's not practical. I mean, it just takes

18 a whole lot longer -- 

19 MS. BARHYDT: No, that's not what

20 that's saying.

21 MR. NESHAN: No, not saying, but,

22 you know, when we started, we take an order,
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1 and, in that three-month period, we design and

2 we get additional orders.

3 MS. BARHYDT: No. What I'm saying

4 is that in a 12-month period, if you got

5 orders in three separate months, it takes it

6 out of engineer to order. I was trying to

7 deal with the concern that some people file 12

8 orders on one day for the same thing. I was

9 trying to say that, if you're continuously,

10 over a period of time, on three separate,

11 unique, separated by a month instances, at

12 that point it's not engineer to order.

13 MR. NESHAN: Yes, that's what I'm,

14 yes, that's what I'm referring to. First one,

15 I get an order and I start working on it. It

16 might take me 14 or 15 weeks before I can

17 finalize it. In the meantime, the following

18 month I did another order and I still haven't

19 finished my design. And I do get three or

20 four orders before even the equipment is

21 designed, and then it doesn't -- you see? 

22 MS. BARHYDT: I do. 
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1 MR. STANONIK: How are they

2 ordering the same thing?

3 MR. NESHAN: Good question. 

4 Because they said they want to try it here,

5 and then they say could you do another one

6 because we want to try it here, too. And

7 then, you know, but this doesn't come all at

8 one time and you are still designing because,

9 again, keep in mind we are small manufacturer. 

10 We don't fabricate everything ourselves. We

11 have to do part drawings, send it to outside

12 people. They have to do their thing. This

13 takes six, seven, eight months sometimes to

14 design. 

15 MR. EISNER: It's all the same

16 purchaser, though? 

17 MR. NESHAN: No, no, it comes in

18 different --

19 MR. EISNER: Multiple purchasers

20 asking for exactly the same --

21 MR. NESHAN: Yes, for multiple

22 installation. They want to give it a try to
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1 see how it works in north, south, west, and

2 then so on. 

3 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman

4 from National. I'm going to go back again and

5 say that any, you know -- I'm glad Laura, you

6 know, puts trust in the fact that we can track

7 how many orders. I mean, to me, this is worse 

8 than trying to track three orders in a year. 

9 Now I've got, from an engineering side, I've

10 got orders three months in a row and now I've

11 got to go back. I just don't see the value in

12 putting any kind of a target on it, aside from

13 having units for ship. Maybe that's different

14 for CRE and HVAC, but the impact on the nation

15 and the impact on the products is on how many

16 units that were made or are out there. 

17 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel,

18 Mitsubishi. Okay. So, you know, an engineer

19 to order could be like a national account's

20 unit. And, you know, if it's a national

21 account unit -- 

22 MS. BARHYDT: So you say that,
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1 you've been saying that a lot, and I have an

2 idea of what that means, but if you could just

3 explain just to make sure. 

4 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. Say, like, a

5 Hardee's restaurant, which they put in, you

6 know, a lot, or a Waffle House, something like

7 that. They have specific units required for

8 their operations. So that's not a model

9 that's listed anywhere. It's not available

10 for sale to anyone, but it's an engineer to

11 order for that particular job.

12 So there's going to be multiples

13 of those, you know, but it's just slightly

14 different from, it's -- 

15 MS. BARHYDT: So you design it

16 once for Hardee's, but then you're selling it

17 to Hardee's over and over and over and over

18 and over. To me, that's not engineer to order

19 anymore. 

20 MR. BAUMAN: You can't do that for

21 more than two years. 

22 MS. HOOTMAN: I agree, I agree.
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1 MR. BAUMAN: If you're doing it

2 for more than two years, Jill is going to

3 decide either she's going to tell Laura she

4 can't keep her exclusive 123 anymore or she is

5 going to have to publically list that

6 information as a built to order product. I

7 think that's -- timing-wise, it actually gives

8 you some kind of a cutoff to keep doing the

9 same thing over and over again. 

10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,

11 PVI. There's another aspect of this last one,

12 the two years. There's another aspect of the

13 last one that says two years that is

14 attractive, and that is it can be automated on

15 the DOE website. Something has to change or

16 it comes off. You could actually enter it in. 

17 If you enter it in as an engineer to order

18 product, it extinguishes after two years. If

19 you have, you either have to change it or it's

20 going to self-remove. So there's no tracking

21 that's required. It addresses all these

22 variations from industry to industry. We're
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1 talking about the engineer to order, so it's

2 not a massive amount. It seems like a good

3 solution.

4 MR. AMRANE: Then after two years,

5 I've come up with, I change the model number

6 and I reenter it as a different model number

7 but it's the same kind of unit, I mean, we

8 need to -- I'm not sure whether this would

9 work because you can't come back later on and

10 keep entering that unit - 

11 MR. BAUMAN: And you have to

12 resubmit it for safety or because your model

13 number, too, is going to be tied in, you're

14 going to have work to do on that side. If you

15 want to make that really a different model

16 number and have different agency listings and

17 resubmittal, yes, people could do that. And,

18 again, nothing is perfect. It's a matter of

19 how much pain Jill is going to have to go

20 through on that versus saying I'm going to

21 make a basic model or I'm going to have to

22 redo. Laura, you're going to get a bill from
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1 me in two years because I'm going to have to

2 go through this all over again if you want to

3 keep this confidential. 

4 MS. BARHYDT: So just to take one

5 step backwards, just because Paul and Jill, I

6 think, had a difference of opinion, and I want

7 to make sure that that discussion is captured.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: So, yes, he's

9 saying, okay, that Hardee's, it was engineer

10 to order to begin with, and now I'm making it

11 consistently every single time for Hardee's

12 and it's probably above 250 units a year now

13 or whatever. I'm going to make that now in my

14 configure to order. It might be that

15 Barhydt123, it might very much be like

16 another, you know, basic model that we have

17 listed as ABC. And I'll make it -- 

18 MR. DOPPEL: But if it's a Hardee,

19 it's a Hardee123. 

20 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a Hardee123.

21 MR. DOPPEL: Okay.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not engineered
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1 anymore. I put it in my configure to order. 

2 If it got up to that kind of volume, I put it

3 in configure to order. 

4 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. And you would

5 have to enter that on the directory?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: It's the same as

7 basic model ABC. It's now in my individual

8 model numbers. I did my basic model ABC. 

9 MR. DOPPEL: But you have to put

10 the Hardee one -- is that what you're saying,

11 you have to enter Hardee123 --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: The Hardee, da, da,

13 da, is now the same as basic model ABC.

14 MR. FLY: But if you're building

15 it periodically, year after year, then I think

16 it's a configure-to-order product. 

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Believe me, in order

18 to track it and keep up with it, I'm not, I'm

19 not engineering every one of those at some

20 kind of volume. It's too hard. If the

21 individual model number -- he said are you

22 revealing my national account? No. If the
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1 individual model number, Barhydt123, is not

2 shown on the website, I am not. Hardee

3 whatever is not on the website. 

4 MR. EISNER: People are getting

5 desperate for a break. I'm going to

6 compromise and give in. Why don't we take ten

7 minutes? Come back at 25 of. 

8 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

9 matter went off the record at 10:25 a.m. and

10 resumed at 10:40 a.m.)

11 MR. EISNER: Okay. Everybody is

12 not in their seat. We are going to begin

13 talking anyway about what's up on the screen 

14 here, basic models. 

15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So let's say

16 we have basic model ABC, and basic model ABC

17 contains four individual models: ABC123, which

18 is configure to order; ABC124, which is a

19 stock item; JillABC is engineered to order,

20 and Barhydt124 is identical to ABC124. And I

21 think we've covered all the various scenarios,

22 but I'm not positive.
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1 Basic model ABC is not engineer to

2 order. Does everyone agree with that premise?

3 So the only time that basic model ABC is

4 engineer to order is if the only model within

5 there or all the models within there are

6 engineer to order. General agreement with

7 that premise? Okay. 

8 Okay. So I think the issue is

9 what do I report? So I say my back model is

10 ABC. The way it has been, you would say

11 something like that. I think what I'm hearing

12 is that people would like to -- 

13 MR. BALLO: Well, not all of us

14 would like it. 

15 MS. BARHYDT: There's some

16 agreement that this might be a compromise

17 position to do something like this. 

18 MS. HOOTMAN: And the compromise

19 is because what would be shown publically and

20 what would not. So custom would not; is that

21 -- okay. 

22 MR. FLY: I think custom is a poor
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1 choice of word because it gets too much into

2 engineer to order. 

3 MR. WHITWELL: So, specifically, I

4 mean, okay, so ABC***, in this case, could be

5 12*, right? And then you're saying that the

6 engineer to order is available, would be

7 public. So engineer to order models would be

8 public, even though somebody cannot call us

9 and say I want one of those *ABC models. 

10 MR. FLY: Enter JillABC.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, okay.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Does that satisfy

13 everyone? 

14 MR. STARR: This is Lou Starr with

15 NEEA. Can I just list all my models as

16 Barhydt124? I mean, even if they aren't

17 private models? 

18 MR. BALLO: You can't put it in

19 your literature then. 

20 MR. STARR: Oh, okay. 

21 MR. BALLO: That's the

22 distinction. But -- 
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1 MR. FLY: So is JillABC under the

2 same basic model as ABC? 

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So the premise

4 is that all four of these models are in this

5 basic model, and this is the way you would

6 certify them. And you could do that. You

7 could do that. 

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. But, still,

9 where would JillABC, can it be under

10 individual model? 

11 MR. WHITWELL: No, it's the --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: So that's this.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. She didn't

14 have it over there originally. 

15 MS. HOOTMAN: AR. Sorry. I mean, I have

16 seen that.

17 MR. FLY: So what made JillABC engineer

18 to order? 

19 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, so these were

20 just some initial assumptions and premises,

21 just so that we'd have some very, a variety of

22 examples to work with. 
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1 MR. FLY: So you're saying that

2 you might have an engineer to order product,

3 which happened to fall into a basic model

4 because it didn't have any different rating

5 than the basic model that it was derived from.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 

7 MR. AMRANE: How do you know it's

8 engineer to order? It would have other

9 columns that say engineer to order? 

10 MS. BARHYDT: Why does it matter? 

11 MR. AMRANE: Well, because --

12 MS. BARHYDT: I'm willing to test

13 basic model ABC, and it is not engineer to

14 order. So what am I going to do? I'm going

15 to grab an ABC124 --

16 MR. AMRANE: As long as you know

17 that --

18 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

19 MR. AMRANE: -- the basic model,

20 not the engineer to order.

21 MS. BARHYDT: We're checking the

22 basic model. 
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1 MR. EISNER: The ABC with three

2 asterisks covers 123 and 124?

3 MS. BARHYDT: ABC covers all four

4 of those: ABC123, ABC124, JillABC, and

5 Barhydt124. 

6 MR. FLY: But the listing for

7 ABC*** covers 123 and 124.

8 MR. EISNER: But all the public

9 sees is ABC with three asterisks. 

10 MR. STANONIK: Well, the public

11 looked at a unit, right, a unit of that model,

12 they would be, they would see ABC in all

13 cases. Those last three symbols, numbers

14 might be something different. It could be

15 123, it could be 124, it could be 698. But

16 they're all the ABC model. You would have an

17 asterisk for every place where you have -- an

18 individual rating plate, on an individual

19 rating plate there would be something in that

20 asterisk space. 

21 MR. EISNER: But it would be

22 listed on DOE's website would be simply ABC
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1 and three asterisks, and separately provided

2 to DOE would be the ones that are in the last

3 column, but they wouldn't be made public. 

4 MR. HON: Unless they were

5 requested under the Freedom of Information

6 Act, right? 

7 MS. BARHYDT: Then the

8 manufacturer is going to have to establish why

9 that is confidential business information,

10 which if you have a contract with a party that

11 says that that is confidential business

12 information. 

13 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers

14 with PVI. Could we add to that that if, could

15 we add to that if a manufacturer chooses to

16 put the basic model, identify the basic model

17 on their appliance, that all they would have

18 to have is just the basic model listing in the

19 DOE directory? You wouldn't have to do the

20 individual or the private model if we put the

21 basic model on the label of the appliance. 

22 MR. FLY: And in the literature. 
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1 MR. MYERS: And in literature,

2 absolutely, and anywhere we're selling it that

3 you can identify the performance based on the

4 basic model, which would be in the DOE

5 directory.

6 MR. BALLO: And that would be

7 added to the model number that's there? 

8 MR. MYERS: It would be, you'd

9 have -- yes. It might not be in the same

10 block, but let's say adjacent where we would

11 say basic model number. And then if we put

12 Barhydt123, it doesn't show up anywhere on

13 this site, but you do see the basic model

14 number. And the product literature. 

15 MS. HOOTMAN: But that's not a

16 requirement. 

17 MR. MYERS: Right.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Got it. 

19 MR. STANONIK: Laura, on the last

20 piece that Frank Myers was talking about, I

21 think, to be totally clear, it should say if

22 basic model is displayed on each unit, in
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1 addition to the individual model number,

2 because the individual model number, in most

3 cases, is always going to have the basic model

4 number. It's going to have all the other

5 embellishments, right? 

6 MS. BARHYDT: I think I remember

7 from Frank's discussion of his scheme way back

8 when was that you don't have all of your

9 individual model numbers because they're,

10 like, five zillion digits long. 

11 MR. MYERS: Not in the directory,

12 but when we advertise we might have Jill123

13 and ABC124. But beside that, we would say, in

14 this case, basic model number where we are

15 actually doing -- go to our website and, on

16 some of our products, you'll see CEC model

17 number, which is where I'm getting this from. 

18 But all these basic models, beside it will be

19 the specific CEC number that the efficiencies

20 went to. 

21 MS. BARHYDT: So I'm assuming

22 you're going to use that CEC number as your
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1 basic model for DOE. If you've already

2 assigned all those and they're already

3 assigned efficiencies. 

4 MR. MYERS: Exactly. That's the

5 number that I would use, and then it would be

6 probably I'd have to change my decal to say

7 CEC/basic model number, and then have the same

8 thing. 

9 MR. STANONIK: But doesn't --

10 Frank Stanonik, AHRI. But doesn't the

11 individual model number of every one of those

12 units include the sequence that is captured by

13 the basic model? 

14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,

15 PVI. It doesn't have to. I could call it

16 chocolate. If that took care of our internal

17 system and the customer system, it could be

18 Barhydt, not 123, just Barhydt, if that was

19 okay with the customer and okay with us. You

20 would know the performance because it had the

21 basic model number. 

22 MR. BALLO: I think we need a
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1 definition for private model. 

2 MS. MEYERS: So, Laura, you're

3 saying I have to put the basic model on my

4 unit? 

5 MS. BARHYDT: No, no. If basic

6 model number is displayed on each unit and

7 product literature, you do not have to provide

8 individual model number in your certification. 

9 It's a choice. Because the norm is that you

10 provide your individual model number and your

11 certification, and so, for those who think it

12 would be easier for them to just put it on a

13 label on the product so that there's an easy

14 time between products to certifications, then

15 there's no need for an individual model

16 number. Because that's the primary reason we

17 want the individual model numbers is so that

18 we can tie units to certifications. 

19 MR. FLY: Can the basic model

20 number -- this is Mark Fly with AAON. Could

21 the basic model number have the asterisks in

22 it? 
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1 MS. BARHYDT: It can. 

2 MR. FLY: The ABC***? 

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

4 MR. FLY: Well, in that case, do I

5 need to have my individual model numbers be

6 the same? 

7 MS. BARHYDT: So I think what

8 you're asking is, can I do this.

9 MR. FLY: Not that. As long as my,

10 every model I make that says ABC followed by

11 three nondescript letters falls within the ABC

12 basic model. 

13 MS. BARHYDT: And in your

14 scenario, you do or don't have weird other

15 scenarios like that? 

16 MR. FLY: You could or could not. 

17 MR. STANONIK: Customer responsive

18 scenarios. 

19 MS. BARHYDT: Customer responsive

20 scenarios. I think, if you have something

21 over in that private model section, I think

22 you're going to have to put something in the
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1 individual model section. 

2 MR. FLY: Even if it's the same

3 thing as the basic --

4 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

5 MR. FLY: Okay.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Because, otherwise,

7 to me, this looks like the only thing you've

8 got out there are --

9 MR. FLY: I'm hiding. Okay. Just

10 trying to ask all the questions.

11 MS. BARHYDT: No, that's good. 

12 MS. MEYERS: So I'm building a

13 water heater for Sam's. It's a Sam's model

14 number. So by looking at the DOE website,

15 everyone is going to be able to know that I

16 have a contract with Sam's. 

17 MS. HOOTMAN: No. Put it under

18 private model, and you would have your basic

19 model on the public and the individual model

20 on the public, but you would not have the

21 product model Sam's at all. 

22 MR. FLY: Nobody could find the
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1 Sam's on the DOE website. 

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 

3 MR. WHITWELL: But if we think

4 back to the earlier discussion that we had

5 about what goes in the certification, there

6 was the manufacturer and there was brand. So

7 I think, in this case, you're thinking that

8 the brand is Sam's. And that was public, the

9 brand was public. So if the basic model is

10 public, then for Rheem and Sam's, and it's the

11 same, then it's not private anymore, I guess

12 is what I'm saying. 

13 MR. STANONIK: But I didn't

14 understand Jill's example to be a private

15 brand model. A private brand model -- 

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Mine wasn't. Mine

17 was not. 

18 MR. STANONIK: Right. And so --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Gary is bringing up

20 a different --

21 MR. STANONIK: He is, a different

22 situation. A private brand model could be
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1 listed under that brand, no? I mean, when you

2 report to DOE, you're going to have to certify

3 the efficiency of that private brand model

4 because, in fact, you are certifying, but it

5 could be listed as the private brand or show

6 up as the private brand. That's been the

7 practice forever.

8 MR. WHITWELL: But it could have

9 the same basic model designation for the

10 private-branded product as the manufacturer's

11 brand. And so if the basic model is public

12 and you see two products, one private-branded

13 product and one manufacturer-branded product

14 with the same basic model, you might as well

15 put manufacturer and brand on there because

16 it's obvious, right? So -- 

17 MS. BARHYDT: Maybe, maybe not. I

18 mean, I'll say that there are people doing

19 that right now, and there's so many

20 certifications that it's not always abundantly

21 clear. 

22 MR. WHITWELL: It depends on how
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1 unique a model -- 

2 MS. BARHYDT: It does. It does,

3 yes. 

4 MS. MEYERS: I think it would be

5 pretty abundantly clear. 

6 MR. WHITWELL: There are some, I

7 mean -- 

8 MS. BARHYDT: All of yours start

9 with CAR or something. I mean, it's that kind

10 of thing where it would just be -- 

11 MS. MEYERS: Yes, so, you know,

12 then it's very easy to -- and it's a pretty

13 small industry, so now everyone knows, you

14 know, Rheem won a contract with Sam's. Well,

15 we've got a lot of other competitors, so guess

16 what they're going to do? They're going to,

17 you know, because it's very clear, it's very

18 evident from the DOE website and being able to

19 look at those model numbers. 

20 MR. STANONIK: In the case of a

21 private brander, let me call it a classical

22 private brander, the addition of this DOE
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1 database is not, in any way, going to change,

2 I think, anyone's ability to figure out who's

3 making that private brand. 

4 MS. MEYERS: Well, this is not how

5 -- 

6 MS. HOOTMAN: It will be public. 

7 You'll be able to figure it out. 

8 MR. STANONIK: I'm saying you can

9 figure it out now. 

10 MS. HOOTMAN: No, in the AHRI

11 database -- 

12 MR. STANONIK: For a lot of years

13 you can. 

14 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So use the

15 same situation with a commercial air

16 conditioner. You can't. 

17 MS. HOOTMAN: You can't. 

18 MR. STANONIK: But would they have

19 the same, the same ABC somewhere in their

20 model numbers? 

21 MR. WHITWELL: No, because you'd

22 want to hide it. 
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1 MR. STANONIK: I mean, the issue

2 is, so, let's say, in the same example, that

3 she's building a rooftop unit for Sam's and

4 Sam's is selling rooftop units, okay? So part

5 of the submission includes manufacturer,

6 brand, and then this stuff, right? So it

7 would say Rheem, and she's selling the product

8 under Rheem, so it would have the Rheem brand. 

9 And then it would have the basic model,

10 ABC***, and then the Rheem model number. And

11 then there also would be in there manufacturer

12 Rheem, brand Sam's, basic model. It's going

13 to be the same basic model. If it's based on

14 the same basic model, it's going to be the

15 same basic model with a unique Sam's model

16 number. 

17 And so the manufacturer is hidden,

18 but you can just see, you can see basic model,

19 ABC with three asterisks, Rheem, and a model

20 number, ABC, three asterisks, Sam's, and a

21 different model number. Those are the same

22 product, so it's clear if you trace it back to
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1 the manufacturer. 

2 MR. FLY: The only way to hide it

3 would be to create a different model for

4 Sam's, a basic model -- 

5 MR. WHITWELL: A different basic

6 model, which is an additional -- 

7 MS. MEYERS: Certification,

8 testing, verification.

9 MR. FLY: Yes. Verification. 

10 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a different

11 basic model on the line. That means that it

12 would be subject to verification testing, just

13 like the other basic model. So now you have

14 two basic model lines on it, and they both are

15 subject to verification. So now it is

16 increasing your verification.

17 MS. BARHYDT: But it's all based

18 on basic model groups anyway. So it's not

19 based on basic model -- 

20 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. But you'd

21 have to create a different basic model group

22 in order, if you don't want to disclose the
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1 manufacturer and brand relationship. So let's

2 say, in an extreme case, a manufacturer has a

3 product line where everything that they put

4 under their brand they also have under a, they

5 sell to someone else that's under another

6 brand. It's doubling the number of basic

7 models that they have. It's going to double

8 all of their entry paperwork and all of their

9 expenses related to tests. 

10 MS. MEYERS: Why does basic model

11 have to be public? Aren't you really just

12 concerned about the individual model? 

13 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik. 

14 I'm sorry. We're overthinking this. How could

15 you have a basic model that you're not

16 selling? 

17 MS. BARHYDT: It's the identifier.

18 MR. WHITWELL: The basic model,

19 people don't see the basic model. I mean, the

20 customer doesn't know what the basic model is. 

21 It's just describing something for the sake of

22 listing with DOE. 
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1 MR. FLY: Now you just really

2 screwed up Frank's deal. 

3 MS. BARHYDT: I know. I was

4 thinking how we were going to deal with that.

5 MR. KLEISS: As an example, my

6 basic model is the nine-footer and it's

7 available in multiple different sizes, but

8 they all share the same energy efficiency

9 description. 

10 MS. DANE: Is this option an

11 either/or or as an and or in place of -- 

12 MS. BARHYDT: Under the current

13 regulations, and actually, what we voted on

14 previously, it was both.

15 MS. DANE: So we don't have to

16 choose this if we don't want? 

17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So under the

18 current regulations, you are required to

19 submit basic model and individual model and

20 both pieces of information are public. So I'm

21 not sure what you mean by you don't have -- 

22 MS. DANE: Well, when we started
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1 talking about this, this was an option. And

2 I didn't know if this is an option -- 

3 MS. BARHYDT: This one down here

4 is an option. 

5 MS. DANE: Yes, is an option to

6 replace or we can choose either method A or

7 method B? 

8 MS. BARHYDT: So the default is

9 you report basic model and individual model. 

10 The option, which is --

11 MS. DANE: So it's either A or B?

12 MS. BARHYDT: This bullet point,

13 that's the option.

14 MS. DANE: So if they don't like

15 that, they don't have to choose that. They

16 can do it the way they were doing it?

17 MS. BARHYDT: But they're saying

18 that the problem is with the default being

19 basic model is public because what we

20 discussed previously was that, and they have

21 a problem with that.

22 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers
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1 with PVI. Would a solution be that the basic

2 model number for private branding is not

3 required, is not public? So DOE would have

4 it. They could tell. When they're selecting

5 products for verification, they could tell. 

6 It wouldn't double the number because they

7 would have that information, yet it wouldn't

8 be public. 

9 MR. BALLO: Okay. So what I care

10 about is being able to identify that a product

11 has been certified to DOE. If I see the

12 individual model and the individual model is

13 in the database, that's fine. I guess this

14 creates the problem, though, is if a

15 manufacturer chooses Frank's preferred option

16 of marking the basic model in his literature

17 and on the product and then the basic model is

18 not available in the database. Then I can't

19 determine if that product has been certified.

20 So I guess, if the optional approach is

21 limited to basic model up here in the

22 database, then I guess this is addressing -- 
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1 MR. WHITWELL: So what if -- well,

2 what I was going to say, I'm not sure this

3 works, but what if Frank were to put the basic

4 model number in both basic model and

5 individual model column? Would that work? 

6 MR. MYERS: As I sit here, I can't

7 think of a reason that wouldn't work because

8 it would show up that -- the only complexity

9 would be what I had proposed earlier and

10 what's here is we would identify on this

11 optional listing on my advertising literature

12 and on my product decal basic model, yet if

13 you look here, you wouldn't see the word basic

14 model. You'd see individual model. 

15 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. 

16 How would anyone find Barhydt124?

17 MS. BARHYDT: They wouldn't. The

18 public would not because that is a custom

19 number that only one person even knows about. 

20 MR. HON: Okay. 

21 MR. EISNER: One person and the

22 DOE.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: And DOE. 

2 MR. FLY: So if someone sent you

3 and said it's Barhydt 124, how would you

4 respond? How would you deal with it?

5 MS. BARHYDT: He's okay with that.

6 MR. BALLO: I'm never going to

7 find out about it. 

8 (Laughter.)

9 MR. BALLO: Comfort is not a word

10 I would use. 

11 MR. MYERS: An acceptable level of

12 discomfort. This is Frank Myers, PVI. Could

13 we have it, if you chose that option, that the

14 basic model would show for those models that

15 you chose that option? 

16 MS. BARHYDT: So I guess what I'm

17 thinking is that the whole idea behind

18 individual model number is that it is the

19 model number displayed on the unit. And in

20 your case, that is a number displayed on the

21 unit. So there's really no disconnect at all

22 between you simply providing that in the
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1 individual model number field. 

2 MR. MYERS: I might be able to do

3 it the same way I do with CEC and just say

4 CEC/DOE. That's where I would put the

5 individual model number that didn't show up

6 here.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Whatever that is,

8 yes. 

9 MR. MYERS: Yes, that would work. 

10 MS. BARHYDT: So what do folks

11 think? 

12 MR. MYERS: So if I chose that

13 option and I had 20 individual model numbers

14 that were based on my basic model, but what I

15 put in the individual model number was my

16 basic model number, I would just have one

17 because that number shows up on every product,

18 every one of those products. 

19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 

20 MR. MYERS: Okay.

21 MS. BARHYDT: The key to the

22 individual model number is that it's a model
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1 number that is displayed to the public and

2 that DOE can tie back to your certification.

3 MR. MYERS: From DOE's point of

4 view, that is an individual model.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, exactly. 

6 MR. KLEISS: There was a comment

7 or question that Timothy made that I'm just a

8 little bit turned around on. He said, how do

9 I know if a product that I find on the

10 directory is certified? Is that correct? 

11 MR. BALLO: No. How do I know

12 that a product I see out in the world

13 available for sale has been certified is my

14 concern. 

15 MR. KLEISS: Okay, okay. Because

16 if it is on the directory, it is certified. 

17 Okay.

18 MR. HASEMAN: This is Randy from

19 UL. This whole discussion started with

20 engineer to order and verification and kind of

21 morphed into whole model number, and I'm not

22 sure this helps the whole engineer to order
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1 verification, you know, verification bodies

2 picking or not picking engineer to order

3 products. How does that help? 

4 MS. BARHYDT: So. And that was the

5 point I made when we first came back from

6 break is that, if you have a basic model likes

7 this that included models, some of which were

8 configure to order, some that were stock, some

9 were engineer to order, in that case, you

10 don't have a basic model that is engineer to

11 order because one of the discussions had been

12 the possibility of basic models that were

13 engineer to order were not subject to

14 verification. 

15 And so in a case like this, this

16 basic model would be subject to verification

17 testing. And my expectation would be that it

18 would, the model that would be selected for

19 verification would probably be that stock unit

20 because that's what's already in stock and

21 it's already available for testing.

22 MR. HASEMAN: What if the basic
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1 model is engineer to order?

2 MS. BARHYDT: If the entire basis

3 model is engineer to order, that's a whole

4 different discussion that we haven't even

5 gotten into yet. 

6 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with

7 AHRI. How would you know that unit that you

8 want to test is engineered? I mean, unless

9 you have something and I guess you would know

10 at DOE, so the manufacturer would have

11 identified, I think, within the basic model

12 that unit is not -- 

13 MS. BARHYDT: If I go out and I

14 find one in the store, then it's not

15 engineered to order. I guess what I'm not

16 understanding is --

17 MR. AMRANE: It's a verification

18 program. I mean, you do verification program

19 --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Verification

21 program, we're going to say we've selected

22 basic model ABC. We're not going to say we've
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1 selected model Barhydt124. We're going to say

2 basic model, this basic model has been

3 selected for verification. 

4 MR. AMRANE: But you would know

5 that. 

6 MR. FLY: If it's truly a one-off,

7 I'd think you could identify engineer to order

8 in the database.

9 MR. AMRANE: That's what I'm

10 asking.

11 MR. FLY: Whatever rule we decide

12 at the end of the day is the rule --

13 MS. BARHYDT: For individual model

14 and a basic model?

15 MR. FLY: No, for an individual

16 model that is unique. I mean, for an

17 engineered to order unit that is unique. 

18 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. We haven't

19 talked about that one yet. That's coming up. 

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So I think

21 the question is -- so now what's the question?

22 MR. FLY: Okay. This is Mark Fly
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1 with AAON. I'm not sure why we even care if

2 it's engineer to order but falls within a

3 basic model. 

4 MS. BARHYDT: So I put that up

5 there because there was some conversation that

6 was making me think that people thought that

7 if you had a model that was engineered to

8 order that made the basic model engineered to

9 order. And I wanted to make sure we were all

10 on the same page that just because one model

11 is, doesn't make the whole basic model

12 engineered -- 

13 MR. FLY: But you do have classes

14 that are engineer to order and the basic model

15 is engineer to order.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So that's my

17 new little -- 

18 MR. FLY: It's the one-offs,

19 right? Basic model ETO. Okay.

20 MS. BARHYDT: So basic model ETO

21 and the individual model number we're going to

22 call it ETO123. So now what? 
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1 MR. WHITWELL: And there's no

2 configure to order and no stock models

3 available.

4 MS. BARHYDT: That's it. 

5 MR. FLY: And it needs to be

6 identified in the database as engineer to

7 order if we're going to apply any rules or you

8 want to make sure that you're checking -- 

9 MS. BARHYDT: That I would agree

10 with, and that's a question for you all. We

11 have not resolved verification testing yet. 

12 There are two options. We can, as the

13 certification package to send to ASRAC, go

14 ahead and say we want to have a required field

15 of information of whether or not the basic

16 model is engineer to order now or we could put

17 that in any future verification package and

18 say, now that we have verification testing and

19 a framework for that and a proposal, we think

20 we need to add to the certification

21 requirements an engineer to order indication. 

22 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with
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1 AAON. If you're going to come out with a

2 rulemaking and you do not address engineer to

3 order in some fashion, I think you're just

4 going to generate tons of comments with the

5 engineer to order guys, if they're paying

6 attention at all. 

7 MS. BARHYDT: If there's no

8 verification testing? 

9 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it's the

10 certification piece of it. 

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 

12 MR. WHITWELL: Right? 

13 MR. FLY: Right. Because you need

14 to -- 

15 MR. WHITWELL: What do they do,

16 right?

17 MR. FLY: What do they do? I've

18 built one; do I have to engineer it every

19 time? And she said yes.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 

21 MR. FLY: You know, so I just

22 think it needs to be addressed explicitly
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1 rather than implicitly because implicitly

2 won't come across. 

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

4 MR. FLY: And if we come up with a

5 different -- 

6 MS. HOOTMAN: You need a column

7 that says engineer to order; is that right? 

8 Because -- 

9 MS. BARHYDT: That's what I'm

10 hearing. 

11 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 

12 Until their verification testing, what does

13 adding that information into the database, if

14 there's no verification testing, what does it

15 add? What's it used for? 

16 MR. FLY: I think it makes it, it

17 explicitly states to those people not in the

18 room that engineer to order products need to

19 be certified. 

20 MR. WHITWELL: And cannot be a 5

21 EER.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Based on the
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1 number of emails I get. I mean, literally,

2 based on the number of emails we get, like, at

3 least a dozen a week.

4 MR. MYERS: So there's no action

5 on it, but it does communicate to the engineer

6 to order side of the industry that they better

7 pay attention. They'd better read all the

8 rules because they're not excluded in the

9 chart. 

10 MR. WHITWELL: There is action on

11 it. I mean, the action is they have to

12 certify what the efficiency levels are for

13 those products. 

14 MR. MYERS: But you wouldn't have

15 to check a box in order to have that

16 requirement. Having a box there is really

17 only, is for in the future, but it

18 communicates that they have to do something

19 because you could have the requirement there

20 without having a box. 

21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, If I can go

22 back a slide or at least try to go back a
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1 slide, so an engineer to order basic model is

2 a basic model that is not listed in any

3 catalogs or marketing literature and designed

4 and built to specifications provided by the

5 customer. And then we were trying to work out

6 some limitations on that to make sure that

7 something that is engineered to order but then

8 sold and sold and sold and sold is not, does

9 not continue as engineered to order. 

10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,

11 PVI. I just want to clarify that built to

12 specifications provided by the customer, I

13 know a lot of ours, the customer provides us

14 a need and they're looking to us for a

15 solution. So we may actually provide the

16 specifications that are required to meet their

17 need.

18 MS. BARHYDT: But they still

19 provide you the specifications for it has to

20 fit this.

21 MR. HON: The danger factor is if

22 somebody comes to you and say I want to build,
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1 you know, ABC with all these components in it

2 and it's going to exceed the DOE's energy

3 level, then you have a problem as a

4 manufacturer. That's where you have to be

5 very cognizant because it still has to be

6 listed, and it still has to meet the standard. 

7 And people tend to say, well, the customer

8 wanted it that way, I'm just doing a custom

9 manufacture for them. But as you're the

10 manufacturer, you're responsible.

11 MR. EISNER: The first paragraph,

12 maybe, can make that more clearly, but

13 engineered to order is one of the basic models

14 that has to be certified. You could say each

15 basic model, including engineered to order

16 products, must be certified prior to

17 distribution. 

18 Does anybody have any problem with

19 the first paragraph now? The first sentence

20 in the second paragraph? 

21 MR. SACHS: I have a problem with

22 -- this is Harvey, and I have a bit of a
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1 problem with the second sentence. 

2 MR. EISNER: The second sentence

3 in the first paragraph?

4 MR. SACHS: In the first

5 paragraph, whichever is first, since we have

6 -- either manufacturers or importers bringing

7 it in, and that would seem to be exclusive

8 classes. So I don't understand what whichever

9 is first means. 

10 MS. BARHYDT: So the manufacturer

11 is an importer, and if the manufacturer is

12 importing a product, it has not yet cleared

13 customs, so to speak. But they have taken an

14 order, they've taken money, they've sold that

15 product. 

16 MR. SACHS: So this would be the

17 case for --

18 MS. BARHYDT: It needs to be

19 certified when they --

20 MR. SACHS: -- HVAC manufacturers

21 here and imports. Okay. I missed that.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Well, manufacturer
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1 is an importer and a builder. It is not just

2 the builder.

3 MR. SACHS: Thank you. I'm sorry. 

4 I forgot that.

5 MR. EISNER: I think there was one

6 other hand on the first paragraph. Somebody

7 else have -- everybody is okay with the first

8 paragraph. What about the first sentence in

9 the second paragraph? 

10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 

11 I'm still concerned about the built to

12 specification provided by the customer. It

13 could work unique for a customer or something

14 like that. 

15 MR. EISNER: Is that okay with

16 everybody, changing -- 

17 MR. WHITWELL: Requirements unique

18 to a customer. 

19 MR. MYERS: Yes, something like

20 that. 

21 MR. EISNER: Why do they have to

22 be unique if others can then start ordering
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1 the product from you? 

2 MR. MYERS: That works. 

3 MR. EISNER: Okay. So everybody

4 is okay with the first sentence on the second

5 paragraph? Now we get to the hard part. 

6 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with

7 Mitsubishi. I think I have a problem with

8 what Laura has just said about importers. 

9 Okay. If there is a requirement on the

10 introduction of a product, that its

11 manufacture date, for an importer, it's the

12 imported date. So we have to do, take special

13 precautions to make sure things are in place

14 so we get our products in at the right time. 

15 So that makes it difficult for us,

16 so now you're making it more difficult because

17 you're saying, we're saying, if we put it into

18 commerce, it's when it's imported. But you're

19 saying, no, it goes into commerce if you take

20 an order. 

21 MS. BARHYDT: So there are two

22 different requirements. Standards are
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1 applicable not on the date of distribution in

2 commerce. Standards are applicable on date of

3 manufacture. Date of manufacture is the date

4 of importation if it's imported. So that's

5 how that import date kicks in. It's date of

6 manufacture, not date of distribution in

7 commerce. 

8 The requirement to certify is that

9 it is certified prior to distribution in

10 commerce. And in this case, we're talking

11 about defining distribution in commerce as

12 when you offer it for sale, which it may or

13 may not be before you actually import the

14 product. It may or may not be before they

15 build the product. It's before they offer it

16 for sale. 

17 MR. WHITWELL: So, actually, I'm

18 thinking that maybe we have to change this,

19 also, add something. Should it be

20 manufacturer either imports the product for

21 sale or the manufacturer -- because you could

22 be bringing in a prototype unit for
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1 evaluation, and it's not for sale.

2 For example, my Toshiba carrier

3 joint venture company might send me something

4 that I'm going to be looking at in my lab. 

5 We're not ready to sell it. We're doing

6 testing, maybe we're doing testing to

7 determine what the rating is going to be for

8 the DOE test procedure, for example. So it's

9 importing -- 

10 MS. BARHYDT: Because we have a

11 universal exclusion for prototypes that are

12 brought in for testing. That was in the 2011

13 rule.

14 MS. MEYERS: What if I brought in

15 ten of them and I evaluated them and

16 determined they were ready to go? Do I just

17 throw those ten away? 

18 MS. BARHYDT: I hate that

19 scenario. At some point, you're making a

20 determination that you are switching from

21 these are here for tests and these are here

22 for sale, and they have to be certified prior
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1 to that. You can't certify it if you have no

2 test data either, but you also can't be making

3 representations if you have no basis for that

4 either. 

5 MR. EISNER: Is everybody okay

6 with the change that Laura's made? 

7 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know if I'd

8 say change-making.

9 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with

10 AHRI. Something still doesn't quite fit

11 because if it's a domestically-manufactured

12 product, there is no option because you're not

13 importing anything. 

14 So in that case, if you're

15 building it here, distribution in commerce is

16 the point of which you're first willing to

17 accept an order. So it's really not an option

18 available to everybody. I think it needs to

19 say distribution at the point in time at which

20 -- somehow you need to indicate, okay, the one

21 criteria fits imported products, the other

22 criteria fits domestically-produced products
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1 or domestically-manufactured products. Right,

2 yes, I think you just need a separate basis.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Is manufacturer the

4 right word there, or is it seller or importer?

5 MS. BARHYDT: Under the statute, a

6 manufacturer is an importer.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So it could

8 be, it could be just some distributor who's

9 bringing in a container load of product. 

10 MR. DOPPEL: So a domestic

11 manufacturer could have a thousand in

12 inventory, and it's not a problem if they

13 haven't offered them for sale yet? 

14 MS. BARHYDT: If they're sitting

15 in their warehouse and they're not offering

16 them for sale.

17 MR. DOPPEL: So that's a different

18 criteria than for manufacturers. 

19 MS. BARHYDT: Because maybe

20 they're trying to decide whether or not to

21 ship them all out of the country. 

22 MS. MEYERS: Let me see if I'm
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1 right. So, conversely, an importer imports

2 them for tests, and there's a thousand -- wait

3 a minute -- there's a thousand of them. You

4 tested two of those, and now you've decided

5 that the rest of those thousand you want to

6 sell. You have to turn around and put those

7 in the database and then sell, right? 

8 MR. DOPPEL: No, I'd be in jail

9 before I'd -

10 (Laughter.)

11 MS. MEYERS: Okay. So, I think we

12 might still--

13 MS. BARHYDT: Nobody goes to jail.

14 MS. MEYERS: So for manufacturers'

15 products, distribution in commerce is -- I

16 think we also need to put is when the products

17 are certified and offered for sale. 

18 MS. BARHYDT: No, this is defining

19 when you have to certify. You can't say that

20 they have to be certified when they're

21 certified. 

22 MR. WHITWELL: Oh, I like that. 
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1 (Laughter.)

2 MR. MYERS: Laura, this is Frank

3 Myers, PVI. When I read that last sentence,

4 it conflicts with the way that you

5 characterize the start of the second sentence. 

6 I think you need to move the essential element

7 of that last sentence and make that the second

8 sentence where, after including engineer to

9 order, basic models must be certified prior to

10 distribution in commerce. For engineered

11 products, distribution in commerce was defined

12 as the point at which the basic model ships. 

13 And then the current second sentence, instead

14 of starting with for, needs to be for all

15 others-- 

16 MS. BARHYDT: That was really

17 fast. Okay. Start over. 

18 MR. MYERS: Okay. Take however

19 off, and move that to become the second

20 sentence, so it's just for engineered

21 products. And then this comes up here,

22 instead of for these, it would be for all
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1 other or for other domestically-produced. 

2 MR. FLY: So that brings up the

3 point, can you engineer to order an import?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: What did you just

5 change? 

6 MS. BARHYDT: We moved the -- for

7 engineer to order products, distribution in

8 commerce is defined at the point at which the

9 basic model is shipped, we moved that up to

10 the second sentence from the bottom of the

11 paragraph. 

12 MR. FLY: And the reason I ask

13 that is that there is one major custom

14 manufacturer that builds a chance in Tijuana. 

15 MR. EISNER: Why wouldn't the last

16 sentence cover that? 

17 MS. BARHYDT: That's kind of what

18 I'm thinking. It seems like this one is

19 really for domestic only. 

20 MR. FLY: Well, I guess it's

21 shipped if it's imported, right? 

22 MR. DOPPEL: Well, no, that's,
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1 see, that's a problem for importers.

2 MR. HON: Can you take out the S

3 at the end of line one and the A-L-L-Y at the

4 end of line two. 

5 MS. BARHYDT: So for

6 domestically-produced engineer to order

7 products . . . 

8 MR. HON: Line one, drop the S,

9 please. 

10 MR. STANONIK: And the

11 individual-- 

12 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, I started

13 editing that and then I never went back. 

14 MR. MYERS: So for non-domestic

15 engineer to order, it wouldn't be when it's

16 imported? Could we just say engineer to order

17 products, distribution in commerce is defined

18 as the point at which the basic model is

19 shipped or imported? Then we wouldn't have to

20 say domestically. 

21 MR. BALLO: I mean, someone could

22 be clever and say, well, it hasn't been
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1 imported -- 

2 MS. BARHYDT: Been imported yet. 

3 MR. FLY: Okay. That's great

4 there. 

5 MR. SACHS: Can we just say date

6 instead of a point in time? Date on which...

7 MR. EISNER: Do you now have to

8 start the last sentence by saying for other

9 foreign manufacture products? 

10 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, right above

11 that, there's another point. 

12 MR. MYERS: On that last sentence

13 where you added the other, that probably,

14 because that gets confusing as to which other

15 you're talking about. It may be that on that

16 one you should put for foreign manufactured

17 products, other than engineer to order

18 distribution. 

19 MS. BARHYDT: So the main thing is

20 that everybody-- 

21 MR. EISNER: It follows the

22 preceding sentence. 
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1 MS. BARHYDT: --gets what we're

2 talking about because I almost guarantee that

3 the right text will get tweaked 12 more times

4 between . . . 

5 MR. FLY: Your very last sentence

6 on the page, I think, probably ought to be 

7 after sentence number two. 

8 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi. 

9 So the quantity of 250...that the quantity of

10 250, is there a basis for that? Is that a

11 random number? Because, for commercial, that

12 seems like a pretty high number. 

13 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with

14 AAON. I think the or category is much

15 simpler. It's something that we can track and

16 DOE can track, and I have real problems with

17 -- 250 in three months, I think, is just going

18 to be a lot of burden to try to keep track of. 

19 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,

20 PVI. I agree. We had had discussions before

21 the break as to the two-year mark. We could

22 do that instead of a count. 
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1 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,

2 AHRI. I mean, if you're wanting to have some

3 kind of maximum number of units to be

4 equitable for all the product types, I think

5 you'd somehow have to connect that number of

6 units to the overall level of business. I

7 mean, 250 units might be the right number for

8 where the total annual shipments are two and

9 a half million. On the other hand, if the

10 annual shipments are only 2,000, I think 250

11 units is way too generous. 

12 MR. FLY: And for a custom HVAC

13 manufacturer, that could be almost a year's

14 production. 

15 MR. STANONIK: Well, yes. I guess

16 what I'm saying is, you can't put one number

17 there and apply it to every product category. 

18 That's not fair. 

19 MR. KLEISS: That line needs to be

20 phrased the same way as the second one. We're

21 not trying to limit how many orders they can

22 take. We're just limiting the classification
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1 based on-- 

2 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I just keep

3 throwing out numbers and ideas here so-- 

4 MR. BAUMAN: Jeff Bauman with

5 National. As far as the number of shipments

6 to use, it's impossible to track from a

7 practical standpoint, for me. You know, how

8 many orders you took and how many orders, and

9 it's meaningless as far as what we're talking

10 about here. It's not, it doesn't tell you how

11 many units out there. It could be ten orders

12 for 10,000 units. It could be -- just the

13 number of orders is meaningless. Like Neshan

14 said earlier, each one of his customers are

15 going to have a separate order for that. You

16 know, I might take an order, one order for

17 10,000 units. 

18 MS. BARHYDT: So, Jeff, people

19 also expressed the view that there is no way

20 that they're going to have a basic model

21 that's not getting redesigned less often than

22 every two years, that if they get another
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1 order they're going to be re-engineering it.

2 MR. BAUMAN: Absolutely. And we

3 still --

4 MS. BARHYDT: I'm trying to get at

5 the, engineered to order is excluded because

6 it's assumed to be sort of a one-off, one-time

7 deal. And if you do that work, to engineer it

8 to order once, but then you keep on selling it

9 and selling it and selling it during that

10 two-year period, it is not just engineered to

11 order anymore.

12 MR. BAUMAN: Absolutely. And

13 that's where we've addressed that with the

14 last item on there.

15 MS. BARHYDT: But for two years,

16 you might be just selling this thing like

17 hotcakes.

18 MR. BAUMAN: Correct. If I had

19 some great customer who gave me an order for

20 10,000 units of one model number that I never

21 sold to anybody else, I don't have to claim

22 that? I think I would want to have to, I
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1 would want that to be claimed because, again,

2 I'm going to be going to every Walmart and

3 seeing my unit that's, you know, I sold 10,000

4 of but I took one order for it. 

5 And I'm not trying to be

6 difficult. One customer is meaningless, also. 

7 Walmart, you know, if you've got a big

8 customer, you know, and it's everywhere, one

9 of my interests is how many units are out

10 there? Either how many units out there or how

11 long have you been doing it? 

12 If you've been doing it for more

13 than two years, it's a repeat product. You

14 didn't use, you didn't have one order and then

15 use that same order two years from now. 

16 That's very unlikely, and that's where I think

17 we've addressed the issue of orders or, you

18 know, concerns and repeats by that two years,

19 which is, as Frank said, easy to manage for

20 everybody. And to me, you know, I'm on the

21 engineering side, you know, somewhere we can

22 probably look at a number, how many units were
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1 sold, looking at how many orders you took to

2 sell that unit would be -- I couldn't tell you

3 I could do that. You know, a number of units

4 I have a chance at. Number of orders? Forget

5 it. 

6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,

7 PVI. What about dropping the units and going

8 to one year? Again, it's easy to track. 

9 Advocates can look at, if something is on

10 there, if it drops off. DOE can have it be

11 automated that it will come off the list

12 unless it's changed to a continuing

13 production. 

14 MR. BAUMAN: The reason we put the

15 two years -- this is Jeff Bauman from National

16 -- the reason that we discussed in our

17 discussion yesterday with CRE was, the idea of

18 the two years was now you're getting down to,

19 basically you're saying one year, you're

20 basically saying potentially one order because

21 you've got that order in December and then I

22 got listed. And I get a second order for that
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1 or, basic timing-wise-- 

2 MR. MYERS: Twelve months then. 

3 MS. MEYERS: So what if you keep

4 the second version and then put, comma, unless

5 approved by the Department. So should you

6 have an extenuating, you know . . . 

7 MR. EISNER: Another thing,

8 because of the variety of circumstances you're

9 talking about, think of a list of various

10 factors with conditions or whatever and one of

11 them triggers it. So if it's more than two

12 years, if it's more than so many units, if

13 it's more than certain percentage of product

14 sold, that kind of thing, whether that would

15 do it. 

16 MR. FLY: Yes, this is Mark Fly

17 with AAON. The only thing we're taking,

18 that's being considered taking exception to is

19 verification; am I correct? Or is there

20 anything else that we've discussed that --

21 MS. BARHYDT: I think that's the

22 only thing we've ever discussed.
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1 MR. FLY: So just to be clear that

2 this is coming in the, most likely, later

3 months, but we are defining it now.

4 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers with PVI. 

5 What if that were changed to 12 months so

6 there's no question that it doesn't reset

7 between December 31 and January 1. It's 12

8 months? 

9 MR. HON: We were just concerned

10 about a product going out in December and, in

11 the next year, losing it. 

12 MR. MYERS: Right. So this gives

13 12 months but never two years. 

14 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman. I

15 guess I'm trying to think through that where

16 you're saying -- and the only way you're going

17 to be able to track that 12 months is your

18 annual certification? 

19 MS. BARHYDT: No. All the basic

20 models must be certified prior to distribution

21 in commerce. So if it's the middle of the

22 cycle, you've got to certify that thing. 
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1 You've got a new engineered to order model,

2 you certify it, we know what that date is. 

3 MR. BAUMAN: But the next year I

4 can re-certify it. January of the next year,

5 assuming we're going to use January 1st, so

6 January of the next year I can certify that

7 product again because I might still be selling

8 it. Then in November of that year, I never

9 bothered to take it off my list, but you're

10 going to know I've exceeded that 12 months? 

11 MS. BARHYDT: I'll know. 

12 MR. BAUMAN: Job security. I

13 guess. Just to me, it's a clearer thing to

14 say two years on the list, but I won't object

15 to that. But it's not as clear as saying two

16 years on the list. I think it solves the

17 issue. 

18 MS. BARHYDT: So Frank has

19 suggested that DOE simply remove it from the

20 list, and I'm not comfortable with that. We

21 could automatically change it to no longer

22 engineered to order, potentially. But I'm
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1 not, I'm not interested in taking stuff off

2 the list. Manufacturers have an obligation to

3 tell us when they have, in fact, discontinued

4 something. 

5 MR. FLY: Or you could stamp it

6 with an expiration date.

7 MR. WHITWELL: So does that mean

8 that we put an engineered to order product on

9 the list, and we build it once, we have to go

10 in and clean it up or else it's going to

11 become a standard product? 

12 MS. BARHYDT: Once a year, not

13 doing these anymore.

14 MR. WHITWELL: So I might have, I

15 mean, I'm going to have a lot of models on

16 there that I got to go in and -- 

17 MS. BARHYDT: Not individual

18 models, basic models.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Well, no, but

20 there's going to be over, in the private model

21 column, I'm going to have a lot of private

22 model, several, you know, numerous private
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1 models that I've got to go in and physically

2 take out of there or else they're going to get

3 moved to public? 

4 MR. BAUMAN: Laura, when I -- just

5 for a second, I think we're talking about you

6 have to re-certify every year. I mean, can

7 the DOE be informed that the model was, that

8 -- again, sort of going back to two years in

9 a row, can you not, basically, you wouldn't

10 accept it if it's the same model two years

11 with a built to order code in it, which would

12 mean you're going to have to sit there while

13 these ones, you're going to have somebody go

14 in, saying now I've got to resubmit these, and

15 he's going to say, oh shoot, I can't do this

16 one. Now you've got a flag that, hopefully,

17 basically tells you you've got to get it

18 inside and tell marketing you've got this

19 model or we're going to change it to a build

20 to order. Just tracking all the model numbers

21 is going to be tough enough. 

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, there's some
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1 IT work there on the DOE -- 

2 MR. BAUMAN: Yes, to flag it at

3 the appropriate time. 

4 MS. BARHYDT: I didn't totally

5 follow that conversation. 

6 MR. WHITWELL: So what Jeff was

7 saying is, is there a way that, if you

8 resubmit the following year and you resubmit

9 the same model under an engineer to order

10 designation, that, you know, there's errors,

11 error flags in that certification. Could the

12 Department program it so that would come up

13 and say, no, you can't do this, you have to --

14 MS. BARHYDT: It will flag it for

15 us. It's not going to flag it for you. 

16 MR. BAUMAN: When you say flag it

17 for you, does that mean when we go to submit

18 that to you it will say, hey, this is no good,

19 and you're going to tell him -- just like if

20 you did it in something else and -- 

21 MS. BARHYDT: The validation, I

22 get the reports about every two weeks. 
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. But there is

2 a valid, at least the way the software works,

3 from what I've seen, you enter your data and

4 there's all these columns over to the right

5 that are checked columns, right?

6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, but --

7 MR. WHITWELL: And so it tells you

8 if there's something --

9 MS. BARHYDT: -- checking them

10 against the database.

11 MR. WHITWELL: -- that's not

12 correct, or it doesn't make sense.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Well, all it's

14 telling you is that, basically, where it

15 required a yes or a no, you entered a Q, or

16 where you were supposed to enter a whole

17 number, you entered a decimal point. It's not

18 checking it against the database. It's just

19 an Excel flat file, and so it doesn't know

20 what you personally submitted last year. 

21 MR. BAUMAN: But you know that on

22 your report? 
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, because ours

2 runs it against the database when it gets

3 imported, yes. 

4 MR. BAUMAN: So to me, you're sort

5 of getting the same thing. There would be an

6 additional step that, when you get that error,

7 you're going to call me or Bob and say, hey,

8 you submitted that same one in two years. 

9 MR. AMRANE: Well, they charge you

10 and flag it for you. And you can do it.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, there's value

12 added.

13 MR. WHITWELL: I wouldn't want

14 that to automatically go over to a public

15 because I'm only building that once. Once I

16 build it, it's listed in there. We're not

17 going to build that model, that same model

18 number again. So I would like to have it just

19 disappear, rather than me have to go in there

20 and have to do something to remove it.

21 MR. BAUMAN: Or Laura give you a

22 call and say, hey, you need to change this.
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1 MR. BALLO: It wouldn't have to go

2 over to public, right? It could go over to

3 private model number. 

4 MR. WHITWELL: But that's where,

5 that's where it starts. That's where it is. 

6 That's why I submit it, right? 

7 MR. BALLO: Well, if you had a

8 separate column for engineered to order and

9 then, at the end of the year, it would go over

10 to the private model. 

11 MR. EISNER: Both would be

12 private, just go to a different column. 

13 MS. BARHYDT: Are you okay with

14 it? 

15 MR. BALLO: I'm not going to ever

16 know about it anyway so . . . 

17 MR. WHITWELL: There's just

18 another hidden column for you, right? 

19 MR. BAUMAN: And we're talking

20 about engineer to order basic models. 

21 MS. BARHYDT: Thank you. 

22 MR. EISNER: At the end of the
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1 year, they move from the engineered column to

2 the-- 

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So I'm going

4 to tell you how I think we would implement

5 this, and it may or may not be acceptable to

6 you. 

7 MS. DANE: So that could be less

8 than 12 months. 

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, unless you put

10 it on your report. If you put it on your

11 report, it wouldn't be -- and we would know

12 that it was under 12 months, so you were good

13 to keep it engineered to order. 

14 MR. BAUMAN: So we're saying

15 certification after 12 months? 

16 MS. BARHYDT: No. 

17 MR. BAUMAN: If I certify that

18 product in November, so it's on my listing. 

19 And then in January, on my re-certification,

20 I'm getting dropped-- 

21 MS. BARHYDT: Either you put it on

22 your annual cert, or it gets dropped. 
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1 MR. SACHS: In other words, you're

2 purging the file. 

3 MS. BARHYDT: I'm purging the file

4 on the annual cert date. So either you say,

5 no, I'm still offering this one, or you don't

6 put it on there and it gets dropped. 

7 MR. HON: So that could give you

8 23 months. 

9 MS. BARHYDT: No. It will be less

10 than 12. 

11 MR. HON: But if you put it on the

12 file again--

13 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, then that would

14 give you--

15 MR. HON: Twenty-three months or--

16 MS. BARHYDT: No, it would give

17 you 13. 

18 MR. STANONIK: Yes, let's say it

19 was 11, then you added it right.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, yes. Okay. So

21 it's one month after. Okay, yes. 

22 MR. SACHS: This seems to be a
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1 risk that I could accept in the engineer-to

2 order-space. 

3 MS. BARHYDT: It's not public

4 anyway. 

5 MR. EISNER: Why can't it be 12

6 months after it's entered in the database? 

7 The computer knows the date on which it's

8 entered. 

9 MS. BARHYDT: It's just a lot more

10 work for us to keep purging individual things.

11 MR. EISNER: You're not purging. 

12 You program it to automatically--

13 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But we have

14 to program that purge. And the way we're

15 already working on implementing purging is on

16 the annual certification. 

17 MR. BAUMAN: When you say they're

18 automatically discontinued the next annual

19 certification, and cannot be re-certified with

20 a build to order? You're going to change that

21 code to a discontinued or whatever, and then

22 I go and do my annual certification, and is
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1 there something-- 

2 MS. BARHYDT: Classified as

3 engineer to order for more than 12 months. So

4 that's sort of my starting point, so it's

5 going to kick -- at that 12-month date, it's

6 going to kick you over. 

7 MR. AMRANE: You wouldn't track

8 the model. 

9 MS. BARHYDT: No, I can track the

10 date it's submitted. 

11 MR. AMRANE: You said that you

12 will purge the database--

13 MS. BARHYDT: So purge is, is--

14 MR. AMRANE: Okay.

15 MS. BARHYDT: It means that it's

16 not on the list of active models. Nothing is

17 ever deleted, really. 

18 MR. EISNER: So you would never,

19 you would never purge something. Once it was

20 discontinued, you'd go into the database and

21 you'd note the date. Even though it hadn't

22 been purged yet, you'd go to the database and
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1 note the year's up, even though the annual

2 re-cert hasn't come around. You would not

3 approve anything4 MS. BARHYDT: Well, it would get

5 swapped from engineered to order to not

6 engineered to order, whatever, the not flag.

7 MR. EISNER: And it would always

8 be in your database then as not engineered to

9 order, and they could not use that

10 classification. They'd have to do something

11 different if they want to sell another one of

12 those products.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 

14 MR. SACHS: It's like painting a

15 cabinet red if the customer wanted it red. 

16 MS. BARHYDT: If you really think

17 that it's a one-time deal, I would just let it

18 fall off the list. The only reason you would

19 perpetuate it in your annual cert is if you

20 think that you are going to offer it again. 

21 MR. EISNER: But if you don't

22 offer it again, it's going to have to be
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1 classified. It can't be engineered to order

2 anymore. 

3 MS. BARHYDT: Well, so let's say

4 you certified it four months before your

5 annual cert date. Your annual cert date, you

6 could still have it marked as engineered to

7 order, but you do that with the understanding

8 that, after 12 months, it's going to get

9 switched over. Once it's switched over, it

10 won't be automatically purged, and you'll have

11 to delete it yourself. You'll have to mark it

12 as discontinued at some point. Does that all

13 make sense? 

14 MR. FLY: So it's automatically

15 going to be switched to-- 

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, we can do that.

17 MR. FLY: Or do we want to do

18 that?

19 MS. BARHYDT: And do you want to

20 do that? 

21 MR. FLY: Yes. I don't know that

22 I want to do that because if it's you know, if
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1 it's -- I've offered it for sale or I took a

2 purchase order, and it takes me six months

3 until I have something, and I enter it in

4 November--

5 MS. BARHYDT: Right before you

6 shipped because we said engineer to order

7 doesn't have to be until you ship.

8 MR. FLY: Well, there's four units

9 on the order, and I ship the first one.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

11 MR. FLY: Okay. All right. So I

12 could re-certify it one time, basically. On

13 the fifth year that I re-certified it, you

14 might be caught. 

15 MR. BAUMAN: Can I get

16 clarification on the last one? So when we say

17 that -- in my mind, the last line on there,

18 we're saying engineer to order basic models

19 are automatically reclassified as discontinued

20 at the next annual certification after 12

21 months from initial certification? Question

22 mark, question mark, question mark. 
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1 MR. STANONIK: You said

2 reclassified. 

3 MS. BARHYDT: I know. 

4 MR. BAUMAN: That's classified as

5 we're changing the classification from

6 engineer to order to discontinued.

7 MR. DOPPEL: From the initial date

8 of certification? 

9 MR. BAUMAN: Is that what we're

10 talking about when you say 12 months? 

11 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. 

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, oh,

13 you're talking about up here? 

14 MR. BAUMAN: Well, no, I'm talking

15 about the bottom, but I'm trying to make the

16 last line, basically, worded similarly to the

17 first line. 

18 MR. FLY: So he's saying he would

19 like it to go to-- 

20 MR. EISNER: Use the same terms in

21 the first three special lines. You're using

22 classified, no basic model may remain
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1 classified, so, therefore, it should be are

2 automatically reclassified. 

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I see what

4 you're saying. Hold on. 

5 MR. EISNER: I thought you said it

6 didn't automatically 12 months after initial

7 certification-- 

8 MR. FLY: You were saying

9 re-certification date. I like that better.

10 MR. MYERS: Yes. 

11 MR. WHITWELL: I don't understand

12 what that said. 

13 MR. EISNER: So you're trying to

14 give them 12 months, but you're working on an

15 annual basis. So you're giving them more than

16 12 months, and that's where the problems come

17 in. Do you intend to not approve any that

18 come in after 12 months even if you're not up

19 to your annual change in your database? 

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So the way

21 I'm thinking this would work, let's say that

22 the annual certification date is January 1. 
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1 You submit a certification on November 1. You 

2 submit your January 1 certification. You do

3 not list the basic model. The last sentence

4 kicks in, and it's automatically reported as

5 discontinued and it comes off the list of

6 active models. If you want to keep that model

7 active, alive, you have to re-certify it on

8 your annual certification. At that time, you

9 can say it is engineered to order because you

10 have not exceeded 12 months or you can mark it

11 as not being engineered to order because

12 you've decided you think that this is going to

13 be a longstanding product. But the following

14 November, we'll reclassify it to no longer be

15 engineered to order. So the following

16 January, it's not going to get automatically

17 marked as discontinued because it's not marked

18 as engineered to order.

19 MR. WHITWELL: So what happens to

20 it? 

21 MS. BARHYDT: It stays on your

22 list of certified products until you tell us
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1 that it's discontinued. 

2 MR. WHITWELL: As an engineered to

3 order? 

4 MS. BARHYDT: No, because in that

5 November we switched it to no longer be

6 engineered to order.

7 MR. WHITWELL: So then we're right

8 back to where I've got a list of-- 

9 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So you--

10 MR. WHITWELL: --engineer to

11 order, I've got to go in and physically remove

12 those every year? I thought we were going to

13 have them just disappear. 

14 MS. BARHYDT: It depends. It will

15 automatically disappear on the first annual

16 cert date.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

18 MS. BARHYDT: But if you choose to

19 continue that certification beyond that point,

20 we'll automatically switch it. And if you all

21 don't like this framework, we don't have to do

22 this. I'm just trying to explain how the
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1 system would work with these dates. 

2 MR. AMRANE: This is not synced

3 because let's say I certify on January 2nd. 

4 Then, you know, what would happen here is

5 that, you know, after one year you would

6 remove it. Then I can re-enter it as an

7 engineered product, and it would stay there

8 for another year or it would be automatically

9 switched to a regular product, although I

10 would like maybe to remove it on the-- 

11 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with

12 AAON. I don't like the idea of automatically

13 rolling it to a standard product. I think

14 it-- 

15 MS. MEYERS: I think that at 11

16 months, an automatic notice should be

17 generated to the manufacturer, and he is asked

18 to make a selection that this is going to

19 expire in 30 days, please let us know what to

20 do. 

21 MR. STANONIK: No notification

22 means it expires. 
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1 MS. MEYERS: Right. 

2 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with

3 AHRI. What if you took that last sentence

4 and, rather than say automatically recorded as

5 discontinued at the next annual certification,

6 it would be automatically recorded as

7 discontinued at the second annual

8 certification following the date it's

9 introduced into commerce. That gives you a

10 maximum of 23 months, which ties in with

11 Jeff's two-year number, but, in fact, it gives

12 you at least a minimum of 13 months. 

13 MS. MEYERS: The problem is, is

14 you could have many of these, all at differing

15 dates. And it would be very hard to keep

16 track of that. You know, if you only have one

17 or two in there, it's not a big deal. But if

18 you have hundreds, and all those dates are

19 falling at different times, I mean, you'll

20 have to put a person on staff almost just to

21 track this. 

22 MR. WHITWELL: Another person on
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1 staff. 

2 MS. MEYERS: So there needs to be

3 some type of automatic notification that goes

4 to the manufacturer and asks them, you know .

5 . . 

6 MR. BAUMAN: After two years, you

7 know, you're going to get some error report

8 back, likely, from Laura that if you did

9 something else wrong, it just seems to me that

10 maybe say 18 months or whatever to give a

11 little more time. But I don't think, again,

12 that's going to make or break the nation's

13 energy requirements. We're talking about a,

14 we're having a very expensive conversation

15 here, and I'm guilty of making this more

16 complicated than necessary, but that we just,

17 you know, if it's one to two years, hey, you

18 wanted to submit this in your certification

19 report again but you can't do it that way and

20 it's not going in until you fix that problem

21 and keep it simple. You can go on it twice,

22 can't go on a third time if it's a built to
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1 order classification. We're talking about a

2 couple of months, one way or the other, here. 

3 Bob has somebody on his staff that's getting

4 that report back, and he's going to go kick

5 their butt when they got too many errors on it

6 so . . . 

7 MS. BARHYDT: So let me ask you

8 this: these are engineered to order, so these

9 are special order. How often are these things

10 going out more than once? 

11 MS. DANE: I think they gave you

12 different scenarios of blanket purchase orders

13 or it goes to three or four locations to test.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But to me,

15 the only problem with it being automatically

16 reported as discontinued at the first annual

17 certification is if you are still making these

18 things. And if they're really a one-time

19 deal, are you really making more of them? 

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, and I think

21 that Mark was getting a little bit at it, too. 

22 It's kind of the timelines and blanket
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1 purchase orders. So if somebody comes in and

2 we're going to make ten 60 tons, but if

3 they're very unique and they take me quite a

4 while--

5 MS. BARHYDT: To make.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: --to make, and their

7 construction cycle is such that it will

8 stagger it out. I mean, there are a lot of

9 things going ifs here, I realize; but, you

10 know, it could go over, that project can be

11 shipping over 18 months to two years. That's

12 conceivable for some of these big projects. 

13 MR. FLY: But, rarely, half that. 

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, yes. 

15 MR. FLY: I mean, it could happen.

16 But rarely. 

17 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm feeling like--

18 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,

19 PVI. I know, in our industry, they are, we do

20 sometimes get a request for two or three or

21 four, six of one custom thing. But, for us,

22 90-plus percent, well over 90 percent, are
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1 just that one order when we engineer to order. 

2 So it doesn't spread over any longer than it

3 takes us to get them manufactured, but, since

4 we're starting the clock ticking at shipping,

5 it is 90 percent of ours is one time and-- 

6 MR. FLY: It's one order of one

7 unit. 

8 MR. MYERS: One order of one unit

9 or one order of two or six, you know. 

10 MR. FLY: But they all ship at

11 once.

12 MR. MYERS: All ship as quickly as

13 we can get them filled. 

14 MR. EISNER: So if this is

15 something that's only available to you, why

16 doesn't simply getting an error report that

17 tells you that this is no longer good for the

18 certification of that product suffice? At the

19 end of 12 months, you cannot ship anymore of

20 these products. You're the one, you

21 automatically send them an error report, so

22 they no longer can use it. Why do you have to
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1 clean it up? 

2 MS. BARHYDT: Because we have to

3 maintain a list of all the current basic

4 models that are in distribution in commerce,

5 so we have to, at some point, retire them. 

6 This is no longer being made.

7 MR. EISNER: So at the end of the

8 year, is it possible to generate a list of the

9 current model numbers that are made to order

10 to the company where they come back and say

11 which ones should stay on the list? At the

12 end of the year, I don't understand why they'd

13 be shipping anymore of these. It's no longer

14 good, so why-- 

15 MS. BARHYDT: Well, but what

16 they're saying is that sometimes they are

17 still shipping them after a year, that it

18 takes them up to two years to make them and

19 ship them.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: For a single order.

21 MR. EISNER: For a single order

22 that occurred before the end of the 12 months.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

2 MR. EISNER: So could your system

3 generate an automatic list of everything

4 that's on that private column, engineered to

5 order, in a form where they check off,

6 remove--

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So could we

8 make that? Yes. But they're the ones who

9 gave us the information in the first place. 

10 They already have it. There's no reason for

11 us to generate a list of what they gave to us. 

12 They already have it. 

13 MR. EISNER: Well, is it true that

14 all of you record them in a way where you

15 should be able to generate your own list? And

16 if not, why not? 

17 MR. BALLO: Before you know it, if

18 this information was just public and you could

19 see what20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. EISNER: Why can't you

22 generate a list from the reports that you
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1 submitted to DOE and you just go through and

2 check off the ones that should be taken off of

3 DOE's website and send it back? Are you not

4 all using computers to track your-- 

5 MS. DANE: Can you download your

6 database and sort by date? 

7 MS. BARHYDT: You can, you can

8 download everything that you've submitted,

9 except that now it won't be on the website so

10 you won't be able to download it. You'll have

11 your own file that you submitted, though. 

12 MR. HON: Yes, I have a running

13 file. This is Charlie Hon. I have a running

14 file that I put on there, and next year I'm

15 going to go over that file, purge it myself,

16 and clean it up. 

17 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, that's what

18 most people do. They have their annual

19 certification sheet that they submit. Over

20 the course of the year, they just add lines

21 whenever they introduce something new. They

22 upload the same file because there's no
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1 penalty for submitting the same models that

2 are already certified. So they just keep on

3 adding at the bottom. And then at the annual

4 certification, they go down the row and they

5 say, D, D, D, E, E, E, E, E, D, D, D. Do for

6 discontinued, E for it's already certified,

7 don't worry about it. They add whatever their

8 next model lines are for the following year. 

9 They submit it, and they're good. 

10 MR. EISNER: Even if you have it

11 in a Word document-- 

12 MS. BARHYDT: And I know AHRI

13 members don't do that because you all submit

14 the stuff. But that's the way people who do

15 it on their own do it. 

16 MR. EISNER: Even if you have it

17 in a Word document, as opposed to something

18 like an Excel sheet, can't you search on some

19 code, like ETO, whatever way you enter it into

20 your Word document? 

21 MS. MEYERS: So most of these

22 things are automatically uploaded from our
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1 bills of material, which essentially runs our

2 -- so I don't know the answer to that, but

3 that could be a significant, significant

4 change. It could mean we have to go change

5 our entire Oracle system. I don't know, but

6 it could because it's not how it's done today. 

7 Maybe it needs to be changed, but it's not

8 just a Word document or an Excel file in most

9 cases. At least for my company.

10 MR. EISNER: What is generated

11 from the bills? What is the bill putting the

12 information into if it's not a Word document

13 or an Excel sheet? 

14 MS. HOOTMAN: The bill of

15 materials? 

16 MR. EISNER: I thought Karen was

17 saying that the bill generates the data that

18 goes into some system, so it's either going to

19 an Excel sheet or a Word type document.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: No, these are huge

21 software programs that we purchase in multiple

22 millions of dollars that run these systems. 
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1 MS. MEYERS: Like SAP or Oracle. 

2 MR. EISNER: But that's what I'm

3 saying. If it's going into something that

4 expensive, it should be able to give you a

5 report, shouldn't it? You should be able to

6 search-- 

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Not without $100,000

8 worth of programming. That's usually the

9 answer back is, no, we've got -- six people,

10 ten months to do it, you know. Do you want to

11 pay us to do that? 

12 MR. NESHAN: Maybe we can fund

13 that. 

14 MR. KLEISS: Well, but are we

15 talking about numbers that are submitted to

16 DOE on the C-- 

17 MS. BARHYDT: CCMS.

18 MR. KLEISS: CCMS. Okay. So

19 that, all that information, all those ratings

20 are put on an Excel template.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

22 MR. KLEISS: So I put together, I
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1 know when I put together stuff that I

2 submitted, I've got a 2013 DOE submittal

3 folder with each of my CCMS spreadsheets. 

4 Now, if I can just have a yes/no or a date

5 column for engineered to order, now I've got

6 my one-stop shop spreadsheet that I maintain,

7 and that can be as a manufacturing, my

8 management system. 

9 MR. HON: I'm going to have a

10 layered spreadsheet with extra comments on my

11 spreadsheet that you don't see, you'll never

12 see. I'll be highlighting colors across

13 there, this one has to go, and page two has

14 everything downloaded from that spreadsheet

15 that you need for your column, bam. 

16 MR. KLEISS: For however many

17 types of products that you have to submit,

18 these CCMS data sheets, you've got that many

19 spreadsheets to look at annually. Not that

20 bad.

21 MR. EISNER: You got to be able to

22 find the data to submit to DOE in the first
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1 place. That's what I'm having trouble with. 

2 You have to find it to submit it. I don't

3 understand why you can't find it to delete it.

4 MS. BARHYDT: So the way I've got

5 this listed now, and I don't have the right

6 words, but what I'm thinking is that you'll

7 get the one annual certification cycle where

8 we won't purge it, and then the next time it

9 comes up we'll just purge it because I

10 understand that you may have a lot of these

11 engineered to order and you don't want to have

12 to go through and find them all and delete

13 them all. 

14 MR. FLY: If you can do that,

15 that's the simplest for us.

16 MS. BARHYDT: So we can delete

17 those, but it won't go more than two years. 

18 It'll be less than two years. 

19 MR. EISNER: But any request that

20 comes in one year after, 12 months after, will

21 automatically generate an error report, too.

22 MS. BARHYDT: No. It'll be gone. 
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1 We're just going to discontinue it.

2 MR. EISNER: You're going to

3 discontinue it, but it may be more than 12

4 months after5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. And so--

6 MR. EISNER: What happens 12

7 months after they first list it, first

8 reported it to you?

9 MS. BARHYDT: So I changed that,

10 as well. Basically, you get engineered to

11 order for that same period of time. Whatever

12 that period of time is is what you get

13 engineered to order. 

14 MR. EISNER: So some people might

15 get more months than others.

16 MS. BARHYDT: It might be 12 for

17 somebody who, well, 13 for one person and it

18 might be 23 for somebody else. But it's not

19 to exceed-- 

20 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with

21 AHRI. At least my thought process in

22 suggesting this is that, to some extent, since
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1 it is engineered to order, let's just say the

2 manufacturer is not in total control of when

3 the customer wants it. I mean, part of the

4 engineered to order is I want it at a certain

5 time, and so it's not exactly like the

6 manufacturer can plan and let's say "game it"

7 so they always get the 23 months, you know. 

8 It's going to be driven by what their customer

9 wanted, when they wanted it, and then all this

10 lays over it and it will be what it is. I

11 mean, I assume, you know, potentially, I

12 guess, a manufacturer saying, well, could you

13 maybe want it delivered in, let's say could I

14 maybe get it to you by December? I mean, that

15 might be a discussion, but, most often, I

16 would suspect a customer says, no, I didn't

17 come to you because I want it in December, I

18 came to you because I need it, you know, such

19 and such a date. 

20 MS. BARHYDT: So will that work? 

21 MR. EISNER: Anybody got a problem

22 with it? So no disagreement, no no votes, and
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1 no abstentions? 

2 MS. MEYERS: Well, back to my

3 earlier comment, should we put anything on

4 there that -- I know you're going to hate me

5 for this, Laura, but in instances where this

6 will not apply, exceptions, you know -- the

7 way it's written now is fine for my company,

8 but trying to think of the broader industry

9 and specialized units, I mean, what if you

10 had, you know, three specialized units that or

11 ten specialized units, and they wanted them

12 sent to you over three years, you know, and

13 they're massive large units the size of this

14 room? Suddenly, there's no way to meet that

15 because we, you know -- I think it's good that

16 we've got definitive here, but because we've

17 gotten so definitive we may have locked

18 ourselves into a box.

19 So I personally don't have a

20 problem with the way it's written, but I just,

21 there's all these exceptions out there, and

22 I'm just --
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1 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers

2 with PVI. The consequence of that, if I'm

3 understanding what you're saying, Karen, is if

4 you have these size of this room, you've got

5 an order on one day, and then they didn't want

6 them, give me that first one that takes you

7 six months to build, but I don't want that

8 second one delivered until three years from

9 now. That's what you're talking about? 

10 MS. MEYERS: Or they order ten,

11 and they want three in the first year, four in

12 the second year, and three in the last year

13 because it's a massive, you know, specialized 

14 project for a special contract.

15 MR. MYERS: It's eight over the

16 next five years. Could that be addressed by,

17 if you go more than this, you have to claim

18 that as a continuing model and you're subject

19 to verification testing, and then you work

20 that out with whoever is providing your

21 service? 

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Subject to
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1 verification testing. 

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So let's have

3 a reality check here. The conversation that

4 I understand HVAC manufacturers to have had

5 was a very strong proponent of taking the AHRI

6 basic model group approach to verification

7 testing. So this is one basic model within a

8 basic model group. So, all right, the odds of

9 getting selected are phenomenally low. 

10 And the other discussion has been

11 that, if there are no units available for

12 tests, pick something else. So if there are

13 no units available for tests, how is this ever

14 going to get selected for verification

15 testing? 

16 MS. MEYERS: I'm not worried about

17 that. I'm worried about staying certified

18 under three years on engineer to order. We've

19 already -- 

20 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But why does

21 it have to remain engineered to order? The

22 only reason to keep it engineered to order is
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1 to keep it excluded from verification. 

2 MS. MEYERS: In one specific skew

3 that on engineered to order for a specific job

4 that, as Tom said, is made in New York City

5 and it's going to take him three years to

6 complete it and it's a specific unit, special

7 features, but the building schedule is going

8 to be six months. 

9 I don't know if it would happen. 

10 I mean, we could probably just drop this

11 conversation if everybody wants to because,

12 again, I don't have a problem with the way

13 this is written, but it just seems like there

14 ought to be, you know, some clause that -- 

15 MR. WHITWELL: Some exception. 

16 Some, some -- 

17 MS. MEYERS: That should you have

18 this -- 

19 MR. WHITWELL: -- to, you know,

20 you have some unusual circumstances.

21 MS. MEYERS: I mean, we run into

22 weird things all the time about, you know,
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1 nuances in the market needs. So I can -- 

2 MR. EISNER: There's always the

3 ability to ask for a waiver. 

4 MS. BARHYDT: No, no. 

5 MR. HON: All you'd have to do is

6 just get, just flip it over to another

7 category. 

8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, exactly. 

9 MR. HON: You've got months,

10 you've got at least a year to do so, so how

11 painful is that? 

12 MS. BARHYDT: Your next annual

13 cert, just switch it from a Y to an N.

14 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,

15 AHRI. What if you, after two years, you

16 changed it to a private model, to a Jill

17 Special? 

18 MR. HON: Yes, that works just

19 fine. You've moved it out of that category.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, I think that's

21 the way to address it.

22 MR. EISNER: All right. No
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1 objections? No abstentions? Okay.

2 MS. BARHYDT: And the other slide,

3 too?

4 MR. EISNER: What's the other

5 slide?

6 MR. WHITWELL: So just one

7 clarification, one clarification question on

8 this. So, Laura, I assume that it would be

9 okay to certify before you ship, right? 

10 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, yes, that's,

11 that's -- 

12 MR. WHITWELL: You can certify it

13 any time up to that point, right? I'm just

14 thinking about how our process -- I don't know

15 when they ship exactly, so I'm going to do it

16 ahead of time. 

17 MS. BARHYDT: Honestly, a lot of

18 what we see is manufacturers know what their

19 model offerings are going to be for the next

20 year well in advance.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, not an

22 engineer to order --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: No, not for

2 engineered to order, but for a lot of their

3 stock items. They know way in advance, and

4 they just submit it all at once. Whenever

5 they come out with their new product line,

6 they submit it all. It's not like they're

7 sitting there waiting for -- 

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. So we have

9 the once a year; but if we're coming out with

10 something in the middle of that next year,

11 then you have the ability to come in and put

12 that in. 

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 

14 MR. EISNER: Okay. This was the

15 first paragraph. 

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

17 MR. EISNER: Everybody okay with

18 this? No objections? No abstentions? Okay. 

19 That's it for those issues you wanted to

20 discuss? 

21 MS. BARHYDT: I think so. Did

22 anyone else have any other thoughts or other
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1 issues? 

2 MR. EISNER: All right. We got

3 both of these cleared. It's almost 12:25. 

4 What if we take an hour for lunch? When we

5 come back, let's talk about the report to

6 ASRAC and everything but verification. Well,

7 it will cover verification. We'll talk about

8 that. But with respect to everything else, I

9 think, as we did at the meeting at the meeting

10 before we submitted the interim report, that

11 we want to talk about what we want to say in

12 this report, what points this group would like

13 to make to ASRAC about where we are on all of

14 the certification parts, where we are on

15 verification where we will be asking for more

16 time to work out the details on that. 

17 MR. WHITWELL: And we need to add

18 another column to this that says engineer to

19 order? I thought that we -- 

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, so I've got

21 that here. So we're adding an engineer to

22 order column, and we're also adding a private
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1 model number.

2 MR. WHITWELL: We have that out

3 there already.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So,

5 basically, it's these two pieces of language,

6 and the rest of it was just examples. 

7 MR. BAUMAN: Laura, would the

8 engineered column potentially be your either

9 engineered to order or your discontinued or

10 your out of -- because I know we talked about

11 --

12 MS. BARHYDT: No, that's the

13 actual code, whether you're adding or you're

14 re-certifying, your discontinuing. Whether or

15 not an individual model is engineered to

16 order, it could be separate. 

17 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. How about

18 built to order versus built to stock? Does

19 that have to be declared?

20 MS. BARHYDT: We haven't discussed

21 that yet, and we haven't set any requirements

22 that hinge on that so --
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1 MR. BAUMAN: I think in our CRE

2 discussions, the potential for a difference

3 there came under model selection by, you know,

4 you might select or you might, how you obtain

5 that unit for a test. For a built to order

6 product, you would have to work, the

7 manufacturer would have to know before then

8 because -- and you might want to be steered in

9 a direction where you're going to be ordering

10 something that we're likely to sell to

11 somebody if we're going to give you a bill to

12 order. So I would say there's a potential for

13 some differences there, but we can debate that

14 ad nauseam when we get there.

15 And my other quick question, basic

16 model, private model, it is required fields? 

17 Because I'm assuming a private model number

18 would be not be a required field, but the

19 other would be? 

20 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 

21 MR. BALLO: So for the definition

22 there, it should be private model number, and
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1 maybe we could have something distributed

2 there as a unique model number for an

3 individual consumer or for an individual

4 customer or developer, yes. 

5 MR. EISNER: Okay. Everybody okay

6 with that?

7 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 

8 I have a question. Do we have to put in here

9 the concept that we were talking about

10 earlier, I think on the previous page, about

11 marking on there the DOE model number, and

12 then you don't have to put all of this -- I

13 just don't see any of that language here. 

14 MS. BARHYDT: So the regs are

15 already in place for basic model number and

16 individual model number where individual model

17 number is the number that's marked on the

18 product. And so I think that addresses what

19 you're talking about.

20 MR. MYERS: So we could do that

21 today?

22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Under existing
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1 regs, you can do that. 

2 MR. MYERS: Okay, all right. 

3 MR. EISNER: Okay. I think

4 somebody else had a hand up. Yes?

5 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, this is, as far

6 as the length of the meeting today, I think

7 some of us are going to probably get out of

8 here early because of the Martin Luther King

9 events are going to just snarl any kind of

10 transportation. 

11 MR. MYERS: And the weather. 

12 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. So -- 

13 MR. EISNER: What is early? 

14 MR. DOPPEL: 2:45-ish. 

15 MR. EISNER: Okay. I mean, that

16 -- well, let's vote on this, and then let's

17 talk about this afternoon. Any objections to

18 this? 

19 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe it's there,

20 Laura, but I think, does it say in there that

21 the engineered to order column, the data in

22 the engineered to order column is not public?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: That was on the

2 prior slide.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

4 MR. EISNER: Any objections? Any

5 abstentions? Okay. We're talking about

6 coming back at 1:30. I don't think we would

7 need more than an hour, if that, to talk about

8 the report to ASRAC on where we are now. I

9 envision, unless somebody else had some ideas

10 for issues, the rest of the afternoon would

11 have been spent on verification. 

12 MR. STARR: Why don't we do a

13 shorter lunch? It's just right down the way. 

14 MS. BARHYDT: Do people want to

15 bring their lunch back here? 

16 MR. EISNER: Should we say a half

17 hour?

18 MS. BARHYDT: And bring your lunch

19 back.

20 MR. EISNER: Bring your lunch back. 

21 And then we'll get as much done as we can, and

22 if we have to, we'll quit early this
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1 afternoon. 

2 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

3 matter went off the record at 12:30 p.m. and

4 resumed at 1:14 p.m.)

5 MR. EISNER: I am not sure if

6 everybody is back, but we're going to get

7 started. 

8 At the end of the last meeting

9 that we had in the middle of August, we talked

10 about the report to the ASRAC. We talked

11 about making two recommendations. One, we

12 felt that, by the end of this meeting, we

13 would have resolved all of the issues except

14 for verification. So we should report to

15 ASRAC any recommendation for them to consider

16 and send to the Department of Energy. And the

17 second recommendation would be that they

18 extend the amount of time for us to continue

19 to work on verification, and we're going to

20 note all the extra time in meetings that we

21 had set up and estimated that we could

22 complete this by the middle of September, at
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1 least we could finish the meetings and then

2 prepare the report to ASRAC on verification.

3 Does everybody still feel

4 comfortable with that approach? Does anybody

5 have any comments on it? 

6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers

7 with PVI. I'm willing to continue working

8 towards resolution on the verification aspect,

9 but I'm certainly more pessimistic now than I

10 was at the last meeting. 

11 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other

12 thoughts, other comments? 

13 MR. SACHS: Could you repeat the

14 last sentence? He trailed off at the end. 

15 MR. MYERS: Sorry. This is Frank

16 Myers, PVI. I am willing to continue to work

17 towards resolution and compromise towards

18 resolution with the verification portion, but

19 I'm significantly less, my feelings are

20 significantly less that we will achieve that

21 goal. I've not seen any compromise, so it's

22 hard to see, without compromise, where there's
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1 an opportunity for resolution. 

2 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts? 

3 Other comments? Again, we do want to talk

4 about whatever report we send, just like we

5 did the last time, some bullet-type points

6 that we can put up on the screen as we're

7 talking about what we do want to say in the

8 report, in addition to the substance of the

9 results we've achieved. But any comments

10 further on the kinds of things that Frank has

11 rose? 

12 MR. HALLEY: Yes, Geoff Halley,

13 ABMA. I sort of echo his thoughts, to a

14 degree. I'm willing to continue. I'd like to

15 survey some of the ABMA members before I

16 commit to much more. There are some tough

17 issues to resolve. I'm willing to pitch in

18 and see if we can get to a decent result.

19 MR. EISNER: Okay. Thank you. 

20 Others? 

21 MR. NESHAN: Just as an observer,

22 I'm not, obviously, a voting member, but,
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1 based on what I've seen in the past month or

2 so, I see more problems for smaller

3 manufacturers. This is going to make, this

4 process that we're going through, the end

5 result, and the certification process that we

6 have to go through is going to be extremely

7 costly for smaller manufacturers. It could

8 force them to shut their doors. 

9 MR. EISNER: Okay. All right. Is

10 everybody comfortable? Okay, go ahead. 

11 MR. STARR: I have a question. I

12 was kind of trying to determine what has

13 changed maybe from people being more

14 optimistic formerly to being less optimistic

15 now? Is it a question of getting into the

16 issues? Is it a decision change in certain

17 members? What's causing it? Is it more

18 coming, is it more now in the details or

19 understanding the problems with it? What's

20 kind of causing some of those problems?

21 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers, PVI. I

22 can only speak for myself. I have every
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1 expectation that there would be an air of

2 compromise in the negotiations. But since

3 I've seen none that has occurred since the

4 last meeting, we've had more detailed

5 discussions where I expected compromise here

6 on the table. And since it wasn't, we weren't

7 able to move forward. 

8 MR. EISNER: You're talking

9 specifically on verification, right? 

10 MR. MYERS: Verification --

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, this is all on

12 verification, correct? 

13 MR. MYERS: Correct. Verification

14 on water heaters and boilers. 

15 MS. BARHYDT: And is it a lack of

16 willingness to negotiate by DOE? 

17 MR. MYERS: I certainly haven't

18 said that. Absolutely not.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I just want

20 to make sure we weren't a stumbling block.

21 MR. MYERS: Okay. 

22 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Just
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1 clarification from Ashley or Neil or someone. 

2 Ultimately, I assume we can report consensus

3 recommendations from commercial HVAC CRE but

4 not from boilers but from water heaters

5 because we could partition it in any way we

6 want to, in terms of where there is consensus

7 and where there's not. 

8 MR. EISNER: We could list

9 different positions with respect to boilers

10 and with those that got, you know, those three

11 other recommendations. 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you can do

13 parts, right? I mean, if they don't come up

14 with a whole verification but they all agree

15 on at least these parts of it, you can do

16 parts, right? 

17 MR. EISNER: Yes, we can recommend

18 parts. And if nobody can agree, if there's 25

19 different positions on other parts, then it

20 would essentially be left to DOE based on what

21 it's learned in these meetings, including any

22 future meetings where more information is
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1 exchanged, what to do with the parts, the

2 remaining parts. 

3 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with

4 AHRI. Is it DOE's intention to, if there's no

5 consensus, to move ahead with a rulemaking? 

6 If it -- 

7 MR. EISNER: Again -- are you

8 asking whether they'll go ahead with

9 everything but verification or whether they'll

10 do a separate rulemaking also on verification?

11 MR. AMRANE: Yes, I'm talking about

12 that. I mean, whether you would do a rule on

13 verification if there's no consensus on what

14 the -- 

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we'll have

16 to see how close it gets. I mean, definitely,

17 if there's consensus on some but not all, the

18 some or the all shouldn't prevent the some,

19 right? But I think that's something Laura and

20 I would have to, like, talk about, brief our

21 management, see what they wanted to do, look

22 at all the different viewpoints how far apart
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1 things really are. 

2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 

3 I did provide a document this morning to DOE

4 that contains a summary document of the areas

5 where there was unanimous agreement, some

6 where there was close agreement, the positions

7 were not that far off, and then the two or

8 three areas where there was polarization.

9 MS. MEYERS: Can I get a copy of

10 it? I hadn't seen that. I don't know if I

11 agree with it -- 

12 MS. BARHYDT: I had asked Jack to

13 make copies earlier. Any idea where they

14 ended up? 

15 MR. EISNER: Well, again, they

16 could email it again. And we did ask for it

17 to be circulated before lunch, if they don't

18 have the original. You got it, and I can

19 email it again. 

20 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know if they

21 emailed it. They printed it. 

22 MR. EISNER: There was a print --
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1 no, I meant he emailed it to somebody to

2 print. 

3 MS. BARHYDT: No, he put it on his

4 thumb drive. Oh, you did email it?

5 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,

6 PVI. Let me be sure that I have made no

7 representations that this reflects anything

8 other than the work that Jeff Kleiss and I did

9 and prepared what we saw as the areas of

10 agreement, the areas of disagreement. We went

11 through each of these items and went around

12 the room to ask if there was agreement, and we

13 just finished it this morning, gave it to DOE

14 to make copies to distribute, so there's not

15 been any effort to withhold the information. 

16 MR. EISNER: And one of the things

17 I wanted to do after we finish what to say in

18 the report, to the extent that we have time

19 remaining this afternoon before people have to

20 start leaving, is to start with boilers, go

21 through that list to see how close we are, to

22 see whether there are good opportunities to
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1 start working on compromises or work out

2 language that's acceptable to everybody. 

3 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers, PVI. I

4 do want to state that, from the group's

5 perspective, we were looking at boilers and

6 water heaters. I haven't corrected everybody

7 that says just boilers, but, since that's the

8 group that we had, I do want to make clear

9 that it's both of those we're talking about,

10 not just boilers. 

11 MR. EISNER: Any other general

12 comments? All right. Let me ask you what

13 kind of points would you like to make to ASRAC

14 about the report we're going to submit? The

15 report will be the slides we've all worked on,

16 which represent, in each case, what the

17 decision was and whether it was unanimous or

18 whether there were dissenting votes, whatever.

19 When we submit that report, what

20 would you like to say to ASRAC about, number

21 one, what we've worked out up to verification

22 and about the need to take more time on
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1 verification? And somebody, I hope, is going

2 to be able to type this up. 

3 MS. DANE: I think, from a CRE

4 perspective, I think that we're all

5 communicating quite well and we're able to

6 come to some sort of middle ground on our

7 differences and pop them all out. So I have

8 a little bit higher, positive spin on what CRE

9 is doing. 

10 MR. EISNER: All I was going to

11 add is, let's be specific about whether we're

12 making comments on everything but verification

13 and verification, so we can separate the

14 bullets. 

15 MS. DANE: Okay. We are midway

16 through the process of verification. Wouldn't

17 you say that's a fair assessment? Yes, I

18 think that's what we're discussing now is

19 verification. 

20 MR. EISNER: All right. The other

21 two groups? We've heard Frank's. You may

22 want to give us some words to put up there.
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1 Again, this doesn't necessarily reflect

2 everybody's views, but we can modify these for 

3 what we can put up there right now. 

4 MR. MYERS: I actually don't want

5 to have this reflect that there are no

6 possibilities. It's just that, up to this

7 point, there's been no position of compromise

8 and, without compromise, negotiations are

9 difficult, if not impossible. 

10 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,

11 Lochinvar. I would say there are some areas

12 of consensus, but there are significant areas

13 where we still have disagreement.

14 MR. EISNER: HVAC?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: I think we've added

16 really good foundation. I think we're

17 probably three-quarters of the way through. 

18 We just had some details to lie down. I'm

19 sure we can meet by conference call somewhere

20 in between and may even have a construct by

21 the next meeting. 

22 MR. DOPPEL: I'm trying to put
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1 together a simple OM for HVAC.

2 MR. EISNER: You're trying to put

3 together a -- 

4 MR. DOPPEL: A simple operations

5 manual with more details. 

6 MR. EISNER: They're putting

7 together a simple operations manual. 

8 MR. DOPPEL: HVAC is working on a

9 simple OM with more details than the original

10 bullets. 

11 MR. EISNER: Okay. Now, in

12 addition to this status on these three, what

13 else would you want to say about verification,

14 about whether we should continue, why you

15 think we should or should not continue,

16 anything along those lines? 

17 MR. SACHS: My feeling is -- this

18 is Harvey. My feeling is that the

19 alternatives to continuing are worse. 

20 MR. EISNER: Oh, the alternatives

21 to not continuing. Everybody hear Harvey's

22 comment? 
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1 MR. SACHS: I support continuing

2 this process to try to converge. 

3 MR. EISNER: Do others have

4 thoughts about this? Again, it doesn't all

5 have to be on the likelihood of success. 

6 MR. STANONIK: Okay. I missed the

7 meeting on Monday, and, as I understand it,

8 that's when boiler verification became

9 boiler/water heater verification. And I see

10 those as very different markets, and I would

11 actually like to ask the working group to

12 consider breaking them apart.

13 MR. EISNER: You think that might

14 lead to -- 

15 MR. DOPPEL: Well, that's HVAC's

16 recommendation that it be three separate

17 verification programs. 

18 MR. WHITWELL: But I think Frank

19 is saying is maybe it should be four. 

20 MR. STANONIK: Well, I'm just

21 saying the discussion of what might be

22 determined for verification of water heaters
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1 should be separate from the discussion on

2 boilers. You don't have an entire industry of

3 water heaters in the tens of millions of BTUs

4 as the boilers have to deal with and the ABMA.

5 It's a whole different characteristic.

6 MS. BARHYDT: I think that the

7 grouping was somewhat of a reflection of the

8 interest of the working group members, that

9 they had interest in those categories together

10 and so they thought, well, I can't be two

11 places at once, so let's all meet in a room

12 together. I don't think it was necessarily

13 that they had to be treated the same. 

14 MR. STANONIK: My understanding is

15 that there would be a verification solution

16 covering both, the same. 

17 MR. EISNER: No. 

18 MS. MEYERS: I think the

19 characterization of there being no willingness

20 to compromise is, you know, when 98 percent of

21 the conversation was on boilers, then, you

22 know, we didn't even really, probably 99.5
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1 percent of the conversation was on boilers. 

2 And nothing, you know, we were all in the same

3 room, even most of us doing both products. 

4 Again, I don't agree with this paper that was

5 provided, too. 

6 MR. MYERS: Say that again,

7 please. 

8 MS. MEYERS: I said I don't agree

9 with that because this characterizes the

10 conversation inaccurately, in my opinion. It

11 was provided to DOE, and I just want that on

12 the record. 

13 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie

14 with Cleaver-Brooks. I just had a question to

15 your suggestion about splitting those. Would

16 your opinions be different about the

17 verification frequency for those two groups? 

18 MR. STANONIK: Well, possibly,

19 possibly. But as a, to me, a clear

20 difference, okay. Quite frankly, when I start

21 talking about a 20, 30, 40 million BTU

22 low-pressure space-heating boiler, okay, the
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1 question of what verification is necessary, if

2 any and if any become part of the discussion,

3 if we're talking about water heaters, my own

4 opinion, I'm not ready to add if any, I would

5 say, if we're talking water heater product. 

6 But the ones I'm familiar with and what I

7 believe is the general range of the market,

8 there should be verification. It's my

9 opinion.

10 MR. MOLVIE: It sounds to me like

11 it would be a good idea to separate those two

12 apart.

13 MR. EISNER: But for the purposes

14 of some simple bullets now to tell to ASRAC

15 why we need more time, if that's what you want

16 to say, should we add something after with

17 significant agreement something about, if

18 looked at as separate groups, there may be

19 more likelihood of success either on both of

20 them or at least in one area? Is that a

21 better way to put it -- I'm sorry. Say that

22 again. 
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1 MR. AMRANE: Just there'd be a

2 better likelihood of success. 

3 MR. EISNER: All right. 

4 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 

5 I would characterize it as another

6 opportunity. I don't know that it would be

7 any more successful, but it is another

8 opportunity.

9 MR. EISNER: And I think we may

10 get a better sense, to the extent we have time

11 this afternoon to look at this sheet of paper. 

12 Remember, this is something that I pushed

13 Frank to put together, so we had some bullets

14 so we could all start talking about it. 

15 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with

16 AHRI. There are other products that this

17 group covers that were not even discussed,

18 SPVU's, computer room air conditioners, and I

19 guess what the intent of DOE, how are we going

20 to be addressing those products? 

21 MS. BARHYDT: Was it the intent of

22 the HVAC group to only be covering small,
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1 large, and very large unitary? 

2 MS. HOOTMAN: No, DRF.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. DRF was

4 included. Were SPVUs --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, could we have

6 a conference call, and that's what I'd like to

7 do, with AHRI is we could cover those issues

8 -- 

9 MR. AMRANE: That's what I'm

10 saying. I think we need someone to bring all

11 the folks into this discussion, which we

12 haven't done so far. So as far as maybe the

13 HVAC for now, it's limited to VRF and to large

14 unitary. And then maybe, by the next meeting,

15 we could --

16 MR. STANONIK: You could say

17 current concepts are based on -- what did you

18 say? Based on AC equipment -- 

19 MR. AMRANE: Unitary, small, large

20 -- 

21 MR. STANONIK: Yes, I mean, you

22 just identified the products we really have
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1 been talking about, in terms of what to

2 develop. And then note it's going to at least

3 be, let's say, the expansion of the products

4 needs to be addressed. 

5 MR. WHITWELL: But perhaps we want

6 to include in there that the current concept

7 is based on, essentially, continuing what we

8 have with AHRI and also offering an

9 alternative, having an alternative DABP, and

10 I think that would make these other, make the

11 ASRAC group and these other products, people

12 in these other product groups feel more

13 comfortable. 

14 MR. STARR: I have a question. 

15 This is Louis Starr with NEEA. On the crack

16 side, I'm wondering if the equipment

17 manufacturers here are, I think, large ones

18 that aren't really represented here who I

19 believe are -- are they AHRI members? 

20 MR. AMRANE: Yes, AHRI members and

21 we are talking to them. They're not here,

22 unfortunately, but we're talking to them
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1 separately. There will be a proposal from

2 them. 

3 MR. STARR: Because that could

4 create a lot of comments if they -- 

5 MR. AMRANE: Absolutely. And

6 that's why I'd say cracks will be bigger than

7 -- 

8 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other

9 comments, other additions to the three that

10 are up here right now? Changes? Any general

11 points that you want to make about

12 verification? 

13 MR. BALLO: I think that was the

14 second slide that we had started on with

15 Harvey's point about continuing the

16 negotiations will be better than anything

17 we'll get otherwise. 

18 MR. EISNER: Do you want to add

19 that thought about better than the

20 alternatives, not negotiating? 

21 MR. SACHS: It's better than the

22 alternative of leaving it to DOE. Let me
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1 re-spin this. Continuing the discussions

2 appears to be the best available alternative. 

3 Is that okay, Ashley? 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sounds great. 

5 MR. SACHS: Thanks. 

6 MR. STANONIK: If you think about

7 it practically, okay, if you don't do this,

8 then the other option is the DOE starts to

9 develop the rule, and we go through the normal

10 DOE rulemaking process, which has its benefits

11 and problems and everything else. And I think 

12 the working group opinion, this is a better

13 approach to your own kind of working group.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Harvey, what did you

15 say again? 

16 MR. EISNER: It's the best

17 alternative to --

18 MR. STARR: I was going to say do

19 all the boiler and water heater people agree

20 with that? I mean, I'm wondering, with that

21 point, that continuing the negotiation is the

22 best available option? I mean, I'm wondering
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1 -- 

2 MR. KLEISS: Yes. 

3 MR. STARR: Okay. I was just

4 curious because if not everybody doesn't think

5 that, then it doesn't really --

6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers at

7 PVI. If there is no willingness to negotiate,

8 just a dictate, do this or do nothing, then I

9 would much prefer to have DOE do it on a

10 regular rulemaking. I think they're hearing

11 all sides of the issue, and I'm still hopeful

12 that there will be some negotiation taking

13 place on these points. We've agreed on some. 

14 If not, then, no, as it stands right now, I

15 think I would probably prefer to take what

16 we've got that we agree on and let DOE take

17 care of the rest on a regular rulemaking.

18 MS. MEYERS: I haven't heard that

19 same sentiment from actual working group

20 members. 

21 MR. EISNER: Could you repeat

22 that? I couldn't -- 
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1 MS. MEYERS: I said I have not

2 heard that same sentiment from working group

3 members. 

4 MR. EISNER: I guess I'd ask you,

5 Frank, are you saying that, unless people are

6 going to commit and they all say they want to

7 come back, is there a disadvantage to having

8 at least more two more days, not saying it

9 goes on forever but two more days to see if

10 agreements can be worked out? If nothing

11 else, there might be more information made

12 available to DOE.

13 MR. MYERS: I certainly intend to

14 be here. 

15 MR. EISNER: So would you change

16 any of the two bullets? Do you want to add

17 "at the present time" to the second bullet? 

18 MR. MYERS: I'm okay with it. I

19 think it's in the weeds.

20 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other

21 comments, other things that you would want to

22 say ASRAC about why they should -- 
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1 MR. BAUMAN: I think, as a group,

2 going back to when we were talking about

3 verification and the basic question of

4 verification, I think we had discussed, and it

5 might be useful to clarify for ASRAC, we've

6 discussed and I think we've concluded maybe

7 not for every product but that a verification

8 program is needed, you know, because one basic

9 question would be should we even be concerned

10 about verification, and I think we've

11 discussed that a couple of times where we've

12 said yes. I mean, industry, for policing

13 ourselves or whatever, we need to -- 

14 MR. EISNER: That's an important

15 point. Does anybody disagree with it? Let me

16 put it a little bit more subtly. If you all

17 agree with it, do you still question whether

18 some of the other interests that you represent

19 might not agree with it and you want to say

20 that? 

21 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie

22 with Cleaver-Brooks. I feel fairly certain
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1 that the boiler industry, the segment of the

2 boiler industry that Jeff and I represent,

3 there would probably be a number of them that

4 would be opposed to a verification program at

5 any level and most certainly would want to see

6 not a complete, verification level that's

7 across, or program that's across the board. 

8 They'd want to see something that's limited in

9 size.

10 So we would not agree, I don't

11 think, with the statement that a verification

12 program is needed. That's not a general

13 consensus. 

14 MR. KLEISS: Yes, I don't like

15 being singled out that way. 

16 MR. EISNER: Do you want to keep

17 it as simple as there is general, but not

18 unanimous, consensus of all of the affected

19 interests in support of the need for a

20 verification program? 

21 MR. MYERS: I would like that much

22 better. 
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1 MR. EISNER: Is that okay with

2 others? 

3 MR. BAUMAN: Yes, I think, for CRE

4 again, I believe that we're expecting there's

5 going to be negative comments about that that

6 will be raised later that any verification

7 program is burdensome. But I think the

8 consensus of the working group is that a

9 verification program is needed. 

10 MR. EISNER: And don't single out

11 boilers in any way. 

12 MR. KLEISS: Well, I'll say, Pete

13 and Geoff, it helps to convey things to

14 constituents and members of your organization

15 that challenge testing is also a verification

16 -- 

17 MR. HALLEY: Yes, I'm not --

18 MR. KLEISS: No, you don't, so, in

19 a sense, there is still verification for the

20 large boilers. 

21 MR. HALLEY: From what I saw, the

22 AHRI members were, you know, more prone to
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1 verification testing for many reasons. 

2 MR. EISNER: Now, I heard you say

3 that you were willing to put up here that the

4 working group is unanimous on the need for a

5 verification program, or are you uncomfortable

6 with that? 

7 MR. MOLVIE: It's not the case. 

8 MR. EISNER: It's not the case. 

9 Okay. It says there may not be general

10 support from industry outside of the working

11 group, it should be the other way around. 

12 There will be general support, but there will

13 be some objections. 

14 MR. NESHAN: No, there's no

15 general agreement outside this group. As a

16 matter of fact, they're against verification.

17 MR. EISNER: You're saying most of

18 the people, subject to -- 

19 MR. NESHAN: I can only speak on

20 behalf of CRE, not on behalf of the rest. 

21 MS. DANE: I don't believe that's

22 a true statement, that all of CRE that's not
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1 in this room is against that. 

2 MR. NESHAN: I said in general. I

3 didn't say all.

4 MR. EISNER: Well, "general"

5 implies to me, it may not to you, we're

6 talking something more than a majority of the

7 people that would be affected by this rule

8 would be against verification testing. 

9 MS. DANE: When we, when we spoke

10 about verification testing, one of the things

11 we discussed and I presented was that Laura

12 had made the statement that she envisioned a

13 manufacturer type-based verification program. 

14 And so, therefore, I think that there's some

15 general support or it's not as dark as it

16 sounds. 

17 MR. BAUMAN: I think, too, from

18 the meetings at AHRI, and I understand your

19 concerns from the feedback we've heard, and

20 we've heard some at the AHRI meetings and

21 things like that, I don't think it's, we may

22 have different impressions, it's not a
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1 significant -- I mean, to me, if we're saying

2 that, we're not doing our jobs right because

3 if there's going to be a significant lack of

4 support, we're not representing our industry

5 right. I think, honestly, in the way that I'm

6 representing the CRE industry, the majority,

7 when I say that, it's not going to be, it's

8 not going to be more people saying no for CRE

9 to say some type of verification program,

10 again, in our case is minimal burden as

11 possible, but that some verification program

12 is needed and it's not helpful to our industry

13 to make sure, as an industry, everybody is

14 staying honest.

15 MR. EISNER: Frank?

16 MR. STANONIK: I would suggest,

17 rather than trying to characterize what you

18 believe will be the opposition and, in the

19 wider basis, maybe just say consensus but not

20 unanimous from working group members that a

21 verification program is needed, working group

22 at this time does not have enough information
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1 to predict the opinion of the whole industry.

2 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr,

3 NEEA. Why can't, on the verification program,

4 we split that out based upon the classes of

5 equipment or the different industries? 

6 Because it sounds like, with commercial AC,

7 they definitely want a verification program,

8 but they're not clear what that is, whether

9 it's, you know -- but it sounds like the

10 boiler guys are not or at least some of them

11 are definitely not interested in it. 

12 So it definitely splits out

13 depending on what you make. I think the

14 viewpoints of verification is based upon the

15 kind of equipment you make, and it's different

16 in each one of those classes. 

17 MR. EISNER: Say that again.

18 MR. STARR: He didn't want to be

19 called out, but it is what it is.

20 MR. EISNER: Would others agree

21 with that approach, breaking it down into the

22 three major categories we've got? Okay. We
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1 were just talking about -- 

2 MR. STANONIK: The debate is not

3 whether there needs to be a verification

4 program for boilers. The debate is whether

5 some boilers need to have a verification

6 program. I would venture that, at the end of

7 the day, there will be a verification program

8 for boilers. It may not encompass the entire

9 market, but there will be a verification

10 program for boilers. 

11 MR. STARR: Or maybe the scope of

12 verification. 

13 MR. BAUMAN: I have a bit of an

14 issue, too, with the last line being a

15 negative statement. Again, to me, that sounds

16 like we're not doing our job right. If we

17 haven't got enough information to predict,

18 again, we're supposed to be representing our

19 industry and either wording that in a way that

20 says we recognize there may be, you know,

21 remaining concerns, but I'm just hesitant to

22 send something to ASRAC to say we're not doing
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1 this, we didn't get enough information here,

2 versus, you know, yes, we had to listen to

3 them and we're hearing industry and we know

4 there may be some negative voices out there. 

5 MR. EISNER: To go back to the

6 statement that was last up there that Laura

7 took down, what about saying, in general, we

8 can do it by the three categories, but, in

9 general we expect some opposition. That

10 doesn't say how much, it just says some

11 opposition.

12 MS. DANE: I think we do, Jeff,

13 expect there to be some disagreement. But,

14 again, you're talking about you're

15 representing them through AHRI, and the

16 majority of the people I'm speaking to are not

17 members of AHRI, they're members of NAFEM. 

18 And so there's two different, you know -- I

19 know you run the NAFEM call. 

20 MR. BAUMAN: And I didn't hear a

21 lot of negative voices of people saying, no,

22 there shouldn't be any verification, but I
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1 haven't heard people say that -- because,

2 again, not to -- the other side of this is DOE

3 goes out and does their own. You know, if you

4 want to do it ten percent or something, they

5 couldn't be, or I don't think anybody, in

6 looking at both sides, as an industry, no, we

7 may not want ten percent, but we recognize

8 that something is needed for, something is

9 needed. And I didn't hear those voices with

10 people saying that, no, we should use zero. 

11 I think there was a reasonableness

12 there on both calls. I was on the AHRI call

13 and the NAFEM call, and both of those, I think

14 the voices that were either quiet, and we

15 asked people, you know, to speak up and we

16 tried to get that response back and draw

17 people out, and I didn't hear a lot of

18 negative. There were some voices, but it was

19 not the overly negative on the idea of any

20 verification program, in my viewpoint, what I

21 heard on both those calls. 

22 MR. EISNER: How about the
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1 language Laura has put up there? 

2 MR. STANONIK: I've got one more

3 option. First of all, I'd prefer you start

4 with a positive statement, "There is a

5 consensus." But the second sentence could be,

6 "The working group recognizes that this

7 recommendation will not be supported by all

8 companies in all industries." 

9 MR. EISNER: Okay. 

10 MR. HURST: Isn't it implied that

11 there's some opposition? I mean, can't you

12 just leave it? I mean, it's not unanimous,

13 so, therefore, you don't agree on something,

14 right? 

15 MR. EISNER: Well, the message I'm

16 hearing is that there might be more agreement

17 here than there would be in the affected

18 industry, but maybe I'm not hearing you

19 correctly. The people you represent you

20 realize maybe have more opposition than there

21 is in this room. And maybe that's because you

22 hear each other talk about things; and,
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1 therefore, you understand the importance, even

2 though you may not like it. And I don't know.

3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 

4 I think it depends on how you're attempting to

5 characterize it. If you're looking at

6 percentages, the large percentages of the

7 affected industries, with the exception of

8 what you've talked about that are not around

9 the table, I think are probably going to be

10 satisfied with the work that comes out of this

11 group. But we recognize that everybody is not

12 going to be happy. Everybody is not happy

13 with, there's always somebody that's not

14 happy. But on a percentage basis, for

15 example, in HVAC, I've heard the number,

16 roughly, 90 percent of industry is represented

17 here. So if everybody not here didn't like

18 it, you still have 90 percent approval. And

19 I'm not saying that everybody not here

20 wouldn't like it.

21 So I think the majority statement

22 here, the pejorative is just what you've got
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1 up here. There's consensus here, and I think

2 we probably, in general, this statement

3 reflects what we would expect to see in the

4 public, in the balance of the industry. 

5 MR. EISNER: Should we leave it

6 the way it is? 

7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I

8 certainly don't have a real strong opinion,

9 but I wonder if this would be more accurate if

10 there was a second, a final clause added that

11 basically says the concerns about verification

12 programs are concentrated in certain

13 subclasses in certain products. So we're

14 differentiating it. There's more reservation

15 about large boilers than there is about HVAC.

16 MR. EISNER: Do people want to add

17 something like that? I've never seen this

18 group so quiet.

19 MR. STARR: I think something

20 along those lines is a good idea.

21 MR. EISNER: Is what? 

22 MR. STARR: I said I think
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1 something along Harvey's line of thought is a

2 good idea. I think it's important to

3 distinguish that. It makes it sounds like

4 it's across all the classes of equipment, and

5 I think it seems to be in certain classes it's

6 more of a concern. 

7 MR. SACHS: I think it's only

8 fair, and maybe it doesn't have to be done in

9 writing, to warn ASRAC, as it's going up the

10 chain..

11 MR. EISNER: Is everybody okay

12 with the Harvey sentence? Okay. Any other

13 bullets that you want to add? Any other

14 points that you want to make on verification?

15 MR. BALLO: Do we need to indicate

16 anything about our anticipated time line for

17 finishing that we do -- 

18 MR. EISNER: Good point. Do we

19 want to at least go through September? Should

20 we say we have one more meeting scheduled in

21 mid September, and we believe we can resolve

22 it by then? 
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1 MR. BALLO: Do we actually believe

2 that? 

3 MR. EISNER: Well, I'm trying to

4 get everybody to say yes. Do you believe we

5 can, or do you think we're going to need more

6 time? Because it's going to be hard to

7 schedule a time, you know, after September

8 15th because of people's availability.

9 MR. HURST: Based on our joint

10 record, I would say we would probably have to

11 have another meeting after the middle of

12 September. 

13 MR. EISNER: Others agree? Do we

14 want to tell ASRAC we're going to meet in mid

15 September and may have to schedule another

16 meeting after that? 

17 MR. HURST: We have an alternate

18 date of the 26th.

19 MR. EISNER: We had one day on the

20 26th, but nobody could meet before or after. 

21 It was just a one-day meeting. And as I

22 recall, at least one person at this table
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1 couldn't make it at all in October and she was

2 necessary. Do we want to set a date for the

3 end of October, or dates, plural?

4 MS. DANE: We could maybe do that

5 and continue to work on our breakout groups in

6 a month in between so that we actually have

7 things to bring and speed up the process. 

8 MR. EISNER: I think that's a good

9 point because the breakout groups have worked

10 very, very well on this issue. 

11 MR. STARR: Yes, that's my

12 thought, too, that it sounds like the

13 equipment classes where they're having some of

14 the questions, it might be helpful to try to

15 get some of those resolutions to figure out if

16 there's, to get closer to resolution before

17 they bring a bigger group to it. 

18 MR. EISNER: Do you want to say

19 something, we'll continue working in the

20 product groups between meetings? What do we

21 want to say about a future meeting? 

22 MS. DANE: Does ASRAC have a
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1 meeting date set after September 12th, or are

2 they doing it the same way we are, they're

3 just kind of moving along? Because, I mean,

4 that would determine where we have our next

5 meeting, right? 

6 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know if

7 there's, I don't know what ASRAC's meeting

8 schedule is. 

9 MS. DANE: Okay. 

10 MR. MYERS: The mid September

11 meeting we're talking about is the 11 - 12? 

12 MS. DANE: I don't know if I'm

13 willing to continue meetings indefinitely. I

14 do have a full-time job. I think they would

15 like me to spend time in Texas. 

16 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 

17 If that is defined as meet in mid September,

18 work in between, have working group

19 teleconferences, and then have a face-to-face

20 sometime in October, yes. 

21 MR. EISNER: Do we want to say

22 continue meetings through October or simply
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1 say we believe that, right now we believe we

2 can complete the negotiations by mid October? 

3 MS. BARHYDT: Is Ron Shebik here? 

4 MR. SHEBIK: Yes, I'm here. 

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. We've got

6 you. Go ahead, Ron.

7 MR. SHEBIK: I'm sorry. What was

8 the question? 

9 MS. BARHYDT: I was told you

10 wanted to say something.

11 MR. SHEBIK: Oh, well, I think it

12 already got answered, though.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

14 MR. SHEBIK: They were talking

15 about CRE members. Yes, there's two that are

16 vocal that were not, that would probably

17 oppose any kind of verification program, and

18 there are two or three others that sort of

19 spoke up but didn't want to say too much. 

20 MR. SACHS: Ron? 

21 MR. SHEBIK: Yes.

22 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey with a
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1 question for the CRE group in general. I've

2 heard objections to verification on financial

3 grounds for smaller manufacturers. Are there

4 additional substantive reservations about a

5 verification program for CRE? 

6 MR. SHEBIK: No, no. The two that

7 were vocal about it were more representative

8 of smaller companies, and they thought that

9 the -- again, the discussion we had a couple

10 of days ago where the whole idea of a

11 verification was never in the original

12 proposal, and they didn't think it was

13 necessary. 

14 MR. SACHS: Okay, thank you. 

15 MR. EISNER: Okay. Let's look at

16 that last sentence and see what date you want

17 to put in. Working group expects to be able

18 to complete a proposal for verification

19 testing by?

20 MR. MYERS: 21 - 22 or 28 - 29 of

21 October. 

22 MR. EISNER: I think it would help
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1 to find out when the next ASRAC meeting was. 

2 So why don't we leave that blank for now and

3 go on to everything but verification testing 

4 and what we want to say about that? 

5 MR. MYERS: I think it's probably

6 worthwhile to at least get some dates out for

7 people to look at their calendar. I know that

8 time of year can really get really full.

9 MR. EISNER: All right. Why don't

10 we wait to hear from Ashley, and she can find

11 out when the next ASRAC meeting is. Let's

12 focus on a new slide -- 

13 MS. HOOTMAN: You're saying we're

14 not doing September 26? 

15 MR. EISNER: Well, we can still

16 talk about that. Let's see what we get for an

17 ASRAC date. My recollection, Jill, is it

18 would be a one-day meeting and the question is

19 whether everybody wants to commit for a

20 one-day meeting because I don't think people

21 had days open before and after. 

22 Do we want to talk again about
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1 meeting on the 26th? Okay. 

2 MR. MYERS: I'm sure that's enough

3 time for the working groups to get their work

4 done. 

5 MR. EISNER: Let's hold off on

6 this issue until we hear about the next ASRAC

7 meeting and see how important it is.

8 Let's go to everything but

9 verification, basically the certification

10 stuff. What bullets do we want to say about

11 the report we're submitting with all of our

12 recommendations on that subject? What points

13 would you make in terms of the product we're

14 sending them? 

15 MR. KLEISS: I'm sorry. Bullets

16 on what? 

17 MR. EISNER: We're going to be

18 sending them about --

19 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, I like that even

20 better. 

21 MR. EISNER: I thought you had

22 something better to put up here.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: I put best proposal

2 ever, and he said couldn't have done it

3 without DOE. 

4 MR. EISNER: Okay. 

5 MS. BARHYDT: What do you want to

6 tell ASRAC about what we're actually sending

7 forward? 

8 MR. EISNER: Your recommendations.

9 MR. SACHS: Please find enclosed

10 our recommendations. 

11 MR. EISNER: That can be it. 

12 MS. DANE: Now, but how does this

13 affect the certification date? Are we still

14 assuming we're going to be able to finish the

15 list with the dates still being in place for

16 certification start after the 31st of

17 December, or did that -- 

18 MS. BARHYDT: So the certification

19 proposal was scheduled, that we were putting

20 forward was that if DOE completes AEDM rule,

21 as expected, then -- well, actually, I think

22 the way we worded it was the time lines are
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1 the number of months after DOE issues a final

2 rule on the AEDM -- 

3 MS. DANE: Unless there was

4 significant change in the certification

5 practice? 

6 MS. BARHYDT: Unless there was a

7 real significant change in the certification

8 rule, in which case then the time lines would

9 start based on the certification --

10 MS. DANE: Did we determine what

11 significant means? 

12 MS. BARHYDT: I believe what we

13 said was that we would want ASRAC to send it

14 back to the working group so that the working

15 group could determine if it was significant or

16 not. 

17 MR. EISNER: Assuming ASRAC makes

18 a change. 

19 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, no, so I thought

20 what we discussed was that when we get all the

21 comments in, that those comments will come

22 back through. 
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1 MR. EISNER: So you're saying the

2 final rule stage -- 

3 MS. BARHYDT: At the final rule

4 stage, that we were requesting that ASRAC send

5 it back to the working group.

6 MR. EISNER: If significant

7 changes are made that could affect the time

8 line.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 

10 MS. DANE: So if we defined enough

11 of -- I guess I'll ask the working group have

12 we defined enough in the verification program

13 in the certification basic model group and

14 some of the other things, have we determined

15 those important key things? Because we if we

16 don't have those, even if we get to October

17 and we're expected to start, I just want to

18 make sure that all the pieces are in place for

19 everybody to start doing what it is they're

20 going to do.

21 MR. HON: I think we're missing

22 one element. 
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1 MS. DANE: Let's see if Charlie

2 explains it better than me.

3 MR. HON: I don't think we have

4 defined basic models well enough to really pin

5 down certain items. In some areas, we have. 

6 Other areas, I don't think we have. 

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, we did. 

8 MR. HON: If we voted on them,

9 then everyone considers them clear enough. 

10 MR. AMRANE: I mean, if you want

11 to revisit some . . . 

12 MR. HON: I'd rather not. 

13 MR. BAUMAN: So we voted on this,

14 on the deadlines for certification.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 

16 MR. BAUMAN: My impression of what

17 we talked about yesterday was that that would

18 be not recommended to go anywhere until the

19 completion of this, the work of this working

20 group and ASRAC, whatever; is that correct? 

21 Because I know Karim, as we have raised a

22 concern about -- and I would say, as far as
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1 the working group reports to DOE, that one of

2 the things that I would want to note is that

3 there is significant concern that extensions

4 for the deadline are published as soon as

5 possible. I mean, I think I was hearing, in

6 my mind, DOE wanting to, just for lack of a

7 better term, delay that until this working

8 group completes and everything else is

9 completed versus saying that-- 

10 MS. BARHYDT: Wait. What? I

11 heard DOE delay, and that can't possibly be

12 the right answer. 

13 MR. WHITWELL: I think the

14 discussion was around the basic model group

15 definition for commercial HVAC and the motors,

16 right? 

17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

18 MR. WHITWELL: And so my question

19 is do we need to go back and vote? We had

20 those on hold until we talked about the basic

21 models, resolved the basic model definition.

22 MS. BARHYDT: We did vote.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: We did vote about

2 the motors. Did we vote to take those --

3 MS. BARHYDT: We went back and we

4 did the vote on the dates, as well.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 

6 MR. AMRANE: Just going with that,

7 Charlie, I think, to second what Jeff is

8 saying, I think what he's saying is what I

9 said, as well, is that we understand that we

10 voted on those dates and it's great. But at

11 the same time, I think we need to send a

12 signal to stakeholders that this December 31st

13 date is not going to hold. I guess we agree

14 that eventually its going to be moved by 18

15 months, by 12 months, by -- I don't know. 

16 And you're right. I'm not sure if

17 you're limited in what you can do, but I think

18 it's very important here that somehow --

19 otherwise, people are going to start asking

20 you, asking us, asking everybody what am I

21 going to do, what do I need to do, and what

22 should we respond? 
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1 MR. EISNER: Well, do you want to

2 have a bullet in the document saying the

3 importance of very timely action on this sort

4 of compliance date?

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, I think Karim

6 is right because there are manufacturers that

7 are not here and they're going to ask

8 questions. What do we say? Do we tell them

9 it will be delayed? Do we tell them maybe it

10 will be delayed? 

11 MR. STARR: That's what I'd tell

12 them. 

13 MR. WHITWELL: So get to work. 

14 MR. EISNER: What I hear Laura

15 saying is no one, at least at the level of the

16 people who are here, can give you a definitive

17 answer to that. There's too many people who

18 play a role in it. 

19 But I think everybody who is here

20 are supposed to be here in good faith, and one

21 of the things that has to happen is you guys

22 be given as much time as possible to make
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1 changes that those dates are going to go out

2 of effect or stay in effect. I think

3 everybody understands that. I don't know that

4 people -- everybody gets the message in DOE;

5 that's clear to me. And they're doing

6 everything they can to get that date adjusted

7 -- 

8 MR. BAUMAN: Even those around the

9 table, Neil, that are going back and reporting

10 to our company and saying, well, DOE is going

11 to extend the deadline, don't get upset about

12 it, until they see that somewhere in writing

13 --

14 MR. EISNER: I understand --

15 MR. BAUMAN: -- and I think, as

16 part of this, we should either recommend to

17 ASRAC or whatever, and I think -- that's where

18 I think the DOE has occasional say in things

19 --

20 MR. EISNER: Well --

21 MR. BAUMAN: -- in saying anything

22 about extending that deadline until everything
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1 is done.

2 MR. EISNER: What else would you

3 add to what Laura has got up here, and let's

4 see if Laura can also agree to it. 

5 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly. I

6 want to clarify one item. Are we talking

7 about time verification, or are we just doing

8 certification? 

9 MR. EISNER: My understanding of

10 the way this is going to work is they're going

11 to start working on the certification rule as

12 soon as they get the ASRAC recommendation. If

13 we get agreement on verification and we get it

14 to ASRAC before they have completed drafting

15 the proposed rule for certification, they

16 could put the two together, if time will

17 permit. But if they get it too late, it will

18 be a separate rulemaking. 

19 MS. BARHYDT: I think,

20 realistically, it will be a separate

21 rulemaking just because it is so important

22 that the certification move forward quickly. 
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1 And so I don't want anything to hold up that

2 rule because of the importance of it moving

3 quickly. And verification is much more likely

4 to generate negative comments, I think. And

5 so I just, I think DOE's preference will be to

6 put it in a separate rule so that

7 certification doesn't get hung up. 

8 MR. AMRANE: I think we would

9 agree with that. This is Karim with AHRI. 

10 But anything that you can do to send a signal

11 that we are working on the certification rule,

12 because I know what's going to happen -- 

13 MS. BARHYDT: We're negotiating

14 and negotiating and negotiating. 

15 MR. BAUMAN: You don't have to

16 tell ASRAC. You have to tell the other people

17 that aren't here as well. 

18 MS. BARHYDT: They're on the

19 blast!

20 MR. BAUMAN: But I agree with him. 

21 I mean, you can go back, and even reporting to

22 our managers, and saying, hey, don't get, you
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1 know, because we're not sure about how to do

2 the reports and stuff, like, obviously,

3 there's no templates and all that. And,

4 again, when we're talking about deadlines,

5 it's a year, but some kind of reassurance to

6 those, until they see it in writing somewhere,

7 they're not comfortable with that. There's a

8 lot of nervous people that we're trying to

9 convince and they don't need to be so nervous,

10 at least the companies that I've been involved

11 with that would feel better if they see

12 something in writing. 

13 MR. AMRANE: We understand that

14 your hands are tied, you don't know, you don't

15 have a schedule, but maybe there's a way. I

16 don't know. And let's be creative here. 

17 MR. STANONIK: Well, I mean, I

18 want to put something up there and give you

19 something to chew on. I think the working

20 group should recommend to ASRAC that ASRAC

21 request DOE to provide public notification as

22 quickly as it can that December 31st, 2013
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1 date will not be implemented.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Say the last part

3 one more time. 

4 MR. STANONIK: Okay. That ASRAC

5 advises, I said request, DOE to provide public

6 notification that the December 31st, 2013

7 implementation date for certification will not

8 be implemented. That's obviously predicated

9 on accepting everything that's been going on

10 here, right? But, I mean, but that, I think,

11 is what I believe is a recommendation. And it

12 doesn't say to give them what the new dates

13 are. It just says we know enough right now

14 that December 31st is not going to be

15 implemented.

16 MR. FLY: Does DOE have any feel

17 for how briefly their verification rule will

18 follow the AEDM rule? 

19 MS. BARHYDT: No. 

20 MR. FLY: No? My concern is that

21 the dates that we put forward, which were the

22 dates for compliance to certification, that
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1 are not tied to the certification rule. 

2 MS. BARHYDT: I understand the

3 concern. I think the thought was -- well,

4 actually, you all are the one who came up with

5 the schedule. 

6 MR. AMRANE: And maybe it was an

7 oversight on our part because, then imagine

8 that the certification would be tied up, for

9 a year, all those dates are linked to the AEDM

10 rulemaking and, all of a sudden, we'll have to

11 comply with those dates, even if the

12 certification rule is not out yet. 

13 MR. FLY: If it doesn't come out

14 by next July, those dates are going to be a

15 problem because, especially those that are not

16 here or not slugging through this in great

17 detail are not going to want to start the

18 process until they know what the process is. 

19 And I don't know that any of this, you know,

20 I guess it's public, in a preliminary form, if

21 you look at the notes of the transcript on the

22 website. But that's not something people are
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1 going to hire people to settle down for

2 full-time jobs to work on the problem. 

3 MR. AMRANE: Okay. This is Karim

4 with AHRI. Can we rewrite our, I guess,

5 language to say, you know, we tie it either to

6 the AEDM or the certification? 

7 MR. BALLO: Could you, could you

8 establish a time frame, you know, a maximum

9 amount? So provided that the final rule for

10 certification is published within X amount of

11 time after the AEDM rule, these are the dates

12 that we would use. 

13 MR. FLY: Like 30 days? 

14 MR. WHITWELL: In theory. Maybe

15 that's right because we got chronics that we

16 had six months after the AEDM rule. There may

17 be people, manufacturers out there who are not

18 being reached and you have to give them six

19 months or five months or whatever the time. 

20 MR. EISNER: There's a question on

21 the floor about whether, if I understood it

22 correctly, the dates that have been agreed to
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1 could be modified dependent on the AEDM rule,

2 that we modify it dependent on the AEDM rule

3 and the certification rule being issued within

4 so many days or months of the AEDM rule. 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Aren't the dates a

6 great big piece of this? 

7 MS. BARHYDT: Of the AEDM, not the

8 -- 

9 MR. FLY: But the dates are for

10 certification. 

11 MR. WHITWELL: Ashley, the concern

12 is that there are probably some people that

13 aren't aware of what's going on, right? And

14 so they may not know what they need to do

15 until the certification rule is final. 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the package

17 you send to ASRAC, which has the dates in it,

18 the proposal, they will go in the docket. 

19 They will go in the docket before ASRAC gets

20 it. Is that not enough? 

21 MR. AMRANE: But it's just going

22 to be, you're assuming that nothing changes. 
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1 You're assuming that whatever -- 

2 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But if there

3 are any major changes, then all the dates key

4 off with a certain rule anyway. If there are

5 no significant changes is the only time it

6 keys off the AEDM date.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can send a

8 blast with a link to it describing that these

9 negotiations happened, that a package has been

10 sent to ASRAC, and here's a link to where you

11 find the material. Now, again, it's upon

12 themselves to go read them, but you can do

13 that. 

14 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I

15 certainly appreciate that, but I can also

16 appreciate the burdens on manufacturers. I

17 think this is a very good idea, but it needs

18 an executive summary that says specific

19 recommendations to ASRAC which are likely to

20 be accepted include - 

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So that's

22 Neil's report, right? 
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1 MR. SACHS: Well, I'm saying that,

2 if you're sending a blast, what they should

3 see first when they click is something that's

4 a page or two that let's the poor guy at the

5 factory know whether he needs to alert

6 managers or not. 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I can see

8 what we can do. 

9 MR. EISNER: Okay. Before we go

10 back to whether we have a date for the next

11 ASRAC meeting, let's focus on this while we're

12 still remembering what we did up here. 

13 MR. BAUMAN: Have we agreed that

14 compliance to certification will not be

15 required until at least after an NPA annual is

16 pulled, some period after the -- 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what those

18 dates are. 

19 MR. BAUMAN: Right. But I'm

20 saying, again, for the summary or whatever, as 

21 a public notice to companies to know that the

22 December 31st date, you know, along with that,
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1 that they recognize that the date would be

2 some subsequent date . . . 

3 MR. EISNER: Does anybody want to

4 change any of this, add to it, subtract? 

5 MR. STANONIK: I just thought I'd

6 mention what I proposed, I actually said as

7 quickly as DOE can because I recognize that,

8 you know, you have constraints. I don't know

9 what they all are. Advise DOE to provide

10 public notification as quickly as it can that

11 compliance with, I was trying to acknowledge

12 that, you know, you don't necessarily control

13 your schedule all the time. 

14 MR. EISNER: The government may

15 close us down, though, on October 1st. 

16 MS. DANE: There you go. 

17 MR. EISNER: Everybody okay with

18 these two bullets? 

19 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly. I'm

20 still concerned that I don't know the

21 compliance rules are going to come out in

22 relationship to the AEDM rule. Therefore, I
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1 don't know whether -- 

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: After. 

3 MR. FLY: After. But if it's six

4 months after it, I only have six months to do

5 furnaces that I'm going to get the final rule

6 on the date that they all have to be . . . 

7 MR. EISNER: Do you want to add

8 something to this on that point? 

9 MS. BARHYDT: Well, that wouldn't

10 be on this slide. That would be on that slide

11 a long time ago. 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the reality is,

13 where we are right now, one is mostly drafted

14 and one has not been drafted yet. It has to

15 be approved, right? So it's going to lag by

16 a month. It's going to lag by maybe two

17 months but, hopefully, not more than that,

18 although I will say that part of it is out of

19 our control. So that's the wild part of it. 

20 I cannot promise a date. We're going to

21 control it as much as possible. ASRAC can't

22 do nothing about the part that's out of our
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1 control. It's just a matter of --

2 MR. WHITWELL: So, I mean, I

3 guess, thinking about that, we were kind of

4 urged, I would say, to tie the implementation

5 dates to the AEDM final rule. But if the

6 certification rule is going to be two or three

7 months later, I don't think that, I mean, that

8 would mean that it could be three months from

9 when a rule was issued or it may be even less

10 before the first products, the implementation

11 dates -- 

12 MS. BARHYDT: So a big part of the

13 argument for why people need more time is to

14 get testing done. There is no reason -- 

15 MR. WHITWELL: No, I don't think

16 it's testing anymore. It's --

17 MS. BARHYDT: Well, I don't know

18 that that's true of all the industries.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 

20 MR. FLY: But most of them for the

21 testing were the 18-month rules, which I'm

22 less concerned with than the 6 month. 
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, let's

2 be clear. Is the worry here that something

3 changes from the proposal such that you

4 already started going down the pathway of

5 coming up with your basic models and getting

6 ready for cert? I mean, I can tell you, from

7 my perspective, starting tomorrow, well, it's

8 already started, but starting already, two

9 things have happened. One is drafting rules,

10 two is getting templates ready. I mean, the

11 full intention of the Department is to honor

12 these negotiations.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, and I'm not so

14 worried about us here in this room. Again,

15 it's more about, and I don't know if there's

16 any- who's out there that have not been

17 active, but if there are people that don't

18 know about it, there are people that don't see

19 the blasts, and they don't know what they need

20 to do until --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you think

22 they're going to know any different from a
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1 Federal Register notice that's issued? I

2 mean, do you see my argument?

3 MR. WHITWELL: Ashley, you know,

4 honestly, I don't know. I'm a little worried

5 that there might be some people that, you

6 know, maybe I shouldn't worry about this but

7 . . . 

8 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, we have the

9 advantage of going back and starting stuff

10 now. They don't have that advantage. 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. But

12 the ASRAC report, I mean, to the extent we get

13 it done by next week, will go in the docket. 

14 They are going to have access to the same

15 information you do. 

16 MS. MEYERS: I think this is a new

17 process, and what people mainly have knowledge

18 of is the NOPR in the final rule. Sometimes

19 that can change before that, so I think,

20 inherently, most people don't start a lot of

21 regulatory things until the final rule comes

22 out and they're not --
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Or at least a NOPR,

2 right? 

3 MS. MEYERS: Or at least the NOPR. 

4 So I think probably, you know, the same may be

5 happening here. 

6 MR. FLY: I mean, I'm going to

7 have trouble getting resources to start on

8 this, on something that may happen. 

9 MR. BALLO: Would it address the

10 issue to, in this meeting we're going to have,

11 to address whether comments or there have been

12 significant changes from the original proposal

13 to, at that time, also consider whether delays

14 in the issuance of the certification rule

15 require additional time for, additional

16 extension of the compliance deadline? 

17 MR. WHITWELL: So with the thought

18 that, at that point, we'll have a better idea

19 of when the certification rule will be issued?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: In theory, right,

21 I mean, if I caught what Tim said correctly, 

22 you would have the comments from the proposal. 
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1 So if we got a bunch of significant adverse

2 comments requiring us to change the proposal

3 or change direction, at that time, you would

4 renegotiate the time frame. 

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, so this is

6 after the NOPR goes out. I get the comments,

7 and so they can be adjusted to the final rule. 

8 The NOPR would have the proposed dates in it,

9 we get comments, find out if people are having

10 a lot of concern about that, and they . . . 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And in the

12 meantime, the blast does goes out. Hopefully,

13 everyone can be encouraged to look at the

14 transcript and/or, you know, the summary. 

15 We'll try as much to provide an executive

16 summary in the blast.

17 MR. STARR: The adverse comments

18 can't come from this group. 

19 MR. HON: Wouldn't it be really

20 advantageous to put in items of note and

21 reference such and such a date in paragraph

22 ten or something, the highlighted paragraphs
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1 that are so critical to this operation, rather

2 than just sending out a blast and have people

3 read pages on pages. 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I mean, we

5 can definitely attempt to do that, like, at

6 least highlight some specific things. To the

7 extent Neil's report is going to be hundreds

8 of pages long, we're happy to highlight pages

9 for them. 

10 MR. EISNER: And, again, we're

11 highlighting here in the report. 

12 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, if they read

13 the report, they ought to -- 

14 MR. HON: But that's what I'm

15 saying. Items of note may be in report on

16 such and such a date. 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 

18 MR. FLY: So what rulemaking is

19 going to contain the deadline dates? 

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Cert. 

21 MR. FLY: Certification? The cert

22 rule comes out two or three months after -- is
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1 that going to be after December 31st? I guess

2 that's my question. 

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So cert NOPR

4 will say date six months after AEDM final rule

5 date referencing that docket, so that people

6 understand that it's tied to that other final

7 rule. 

8 MR. FLY: Which should already be

9 out by then.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Which should already

11 be done.

12 MR. FLY: But both in comment

13 period.

14 MS. BARHYDT: But they'll both be

15 in comment period. Final rule, cert final

16 rule, there should already be an AEDM final

17 rule. I mean, they'll be staggered. There

18 should be an AEDM final rule, and it will be

19 six months after whatever that date is, and

20 that will be a date certain at that point. 

21 MR. WHITWELL: When do we think

22 the certification NOPR will go out? I mean,
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1 is that two months from now? 

2 MS. HOOTMAN: That's just a little

3 -- I mean, does it take you a month to write

4 up? If everything didn't change from ASRAC,

5 I mean, I don't know. I mean, does it take a

6 month to write that and then -- 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not the

8 writing that's the issue -- 

9 MS. BARHYDT: At this point, we

10 don't have a significance determination on

11 this rule because we don't have a rule yet.

12 MR. EISNER: I used to say I could

13 take my good writer, put the person in a room

14 for two or three days, and write any rule we

15 had to write, all the time that it took

16 happened after the day he came out the door. 

17 MR. WHITWELL: I'm just trying to

18 get a feel for, I mean, once the NOPR comes

19 out, I mean, that's a pretty good indication

20 of what's going to be in the rule, right? So

21 manufacturers who maybe haven't been involved

22 will at least see the NOPR, should see the
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1 NOPR, and they can start making preparations. 

2 And that could be a month or two before the

3 AEDM rule comes out, I guess. Maybe. 

4 MR. EISNER: You're saying the

5 NOPR could go out a month or two before the

6 AEDM -- 

7 MR. WHITWELL: Final rule, right. 

8 Yes, yes.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, yes, it's

10 supposed to, it's going to go. There's no -- 

11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So that's

12 what their question was is when do we think

13 the NOPR will go out. So you're saying -- 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I know your

15 question. So if I give you a date, do you all

16 promise not to email the day after that date? 

17 MR. HURST: Give us a date. 

18 MS. MEYERS: We'll verify your

19 date later. 

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think

21 there's any way -- so this assumes we get a

22 non-significant determination. I don't think
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1 there's any way we get it out of here before

2 the end of September. 

3 MS. BARHYDT: I'm still on

4 vacation then. I want to at least read it

5 before it goes. 

6 MR. WHITWELL: So end of October

7 you think it will be out? By the end of

8 October? 

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: End of September

10 would be my guess. When do you get back? 

11 MS. BARHYDT: I leave the 27th.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Of September? 

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can get it out

15 before you go. 

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that assumes a

18 non-significant determination. If we get

19 something different, if we get that, it's out

20 of our hands. 

21 MR. EISNER: What was your

22 experience with the last negotiated
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1 rulemaking? 

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, that was a

3 standard rulemaking, and so that's a whole

4 different ball game. 

5 MR. EISNER: So you think this one

6 is more likely --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is the hope. 

8 MR. FLY: But we're not doing

9 verification. 

10 MR. EISNER: My experience with a

11 lot of regulatory negotiations -- 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: The problem with

13 that is the December 31st date sticks, right? 

14 I mean . . . 

15 MR. EISNER: My experience with a

16 lot of regulatory negotiations was that most

17 of them were classified significant, most of

18 them cleared, if not all of them, very, very

19 quickly. Because they were negotiated

20 rulemakings, there was consensus around the

21 table about what ought to be in it. It's kind

22 of hard to say, well, we think it should be
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1 this way or that way when this group has done

2 the negotiations. They haven't had the same

3 kind of experience other agencies have had. 

4 So there's nothing you can assume about -- 

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Laura, what are you

6 smiling about? I said, Laura, what are you

7 smiling about when he says that? 

8 MS. BARHYDT: I'm smiling because

9 he's smiling. 

10 MR. BALLO: I can tell you a story

11 about refrigerators. 

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Is our product

13 classes going to be held up? 

14 MR. EISNER: Okay. 

15 MR. DOPPEL: When will we see this

16 in a Word document or a PDF that's going to be

17 going in? 

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: What do you mean? 

19 The PowerPoints are updated to show --

20 MR. DOPPEL: Okay.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then Neil

22 will, well, Neil, whomever he needs help with,
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1 we'll just transcribe that into the --

2 MR. EISNER: But they'll be

3 attached to -- what we've been talking about

4 is bullets to put in a cover memo to which all

5 these slides are attached. So the point --

6 you know, again, we're talking about what key

7 points do we want to make to them? We've been

8 through the one on verification. These are

9 the points that are up there on everything but

10 verification, the certification side of it. 

11 Do you want to say more than this? Do you

12 want to say this? Does everybody agree to

13 this? 

14 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with

15 AHRI. I think Tim suggested something before. 

16 Is it on the slide or not? 

17 MR. BALLO: Yes. So it says -- 

18 MS. BARHYDT: Maybe it was a

19 different slide. There were several slides. 

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's that one. 

21 MS. BARHYDT: That one? 

22 MR. BALLO: Where it says working
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1 group to determine whether final certain rule

2 has deviated significantly from the original

3 proposal or whether delays in the issuance of

4 the rule will trigger -- 

5 MR. WHITWELL: Should impact the

6 implementation dates, right? 

7 MR. BALLO: Yes. 

8 MR. EISNER: Do you want to add

9 that? 

10 MS. BARHYDT: So what I'm thinking

11 about is how we do a proposed rule that we

12 don't end up having to SNOPR because this

13 group decides to change the dates. 

14 MR. EISNER: Say that again.

15 MS. BARHYDT: So we have to be

16 able to structure our proposal so that the

17 dates are clear enough that we can get to our

18 final rule without triggering a supplemental

19 notice of proposed rulemaking because the

20 dates change.

21 MR. WHITWELL: So if there's a

22 proposed rulemaking with certain dates and the
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1 final rule has later dates, you need to go

2 through a supplemental NOPR? 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: It depends on what

4 the language of the proposal says. 

5 MR. EISNER: What if you said

6 exactly what we're talking about here: These

7 are the dates we proposed. They may change if

8 the following happens, and we would like

9 comment on that. 

10 MR. BALLO: This is opening a can

11 of worms that maybe we don't need to open but,

12 to the extent people have real concerns about

13 -- 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the problem

15 with being flexible -- the advantage of being

16 flexible is that there's a potential that we

17 can adopt something different in the final

18 rule. However, the disadvantage of being

19 flexible is you're almost inviting comment on

20 all other dates, and you're guaranteed to get

21 adverse comments. So if the intent is to

22 honor this agreement, I mean, it is a really
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1 fine line there because, for people not in

2 this room, you're pretty much asking them,

3 well, what other compliance seats would you

4 want? And then, you know, you're going to get

5 a mixed bag, in which case you're almost

6 guaranteed a problem. 

7 MR. FLY: I think you're going to

8 get a lot less comments if you tie the dates

9 to the final because, otherwise, nobody knows

10 what the dates mean. 

11 MS. MEYERS: So instead of

12 assigning to the AEDM rule, assign it to the

13 certification? 

14 MR. FLY: The certification rule,

15 which will follow it. 

16 MS. HOOTMAN: It was a

17 recommendation. 

18 MS. MEYERS: Yes. So I think

19 that's right. I think you have to change it. 

20 I think you have to. 

21 MS. HOOTMAN: So, Ashley, why did

22 you have us tie the dates -- well, yesterday
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1 even, when you came in the room, I mean, I

2 thought it was that we had to tie into the

3 AEDM rule.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that is what I

5 -- well, that's what I read, first of all, in

6 your thing that you sent. 

7 MS. HOOTMAN: I think we kind of

8 maybe don't understand.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think this is

10 more an issue that you need to -- 

11 MR. WHITWELL: I think so, too. 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I mean, the

13 dates are not something -- 

14 MR. EISNER: Let's look at the

15 slide.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: But I can tell

17 you, from my perspective, in terms of, like,

18 implementing templates and providing portals

19 to you, we will start tomorrow. I mean, it

20 will take us some time, especially because of

21 those PDFs. I mean, getting the ability to

22 upload those PDFs and getting that to work is
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1 going to take some time. 

2 MR. WHITWELL: Which manufacturers

3 have to do, as well. 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to have

5 to create that whole, I may have to create

6 that infrastructure, too. So my intention is

7 not to wait beyond tomorrow to start. 

8 MS. BARHYDT: Which slide am I

9 looking for? 

10 MR. EISNER: I think it's the one

11 with the five or six states on one side and

12 the list of products on the other side. All

13 right. As I recall, these were based on the

14 assumption that you -- what if were to change

15 this to certification rule, would the months

16 change? 

17 MS. DANE: They should be because

18 there was always an expectation that the cert

19 rule was going to be after the AEDM rule. 

20 MR. EISNER: We're talking at

21 least a month or two, hence the six to nine. 

22 So if we talk about changing this to months
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1 after the certification rule, would you cut

2 each of these by, for example, two months? 

3 MS. DANE: Well, I think the

4 understanding was, and I'm going to say that,

5 from the end of the certification rule, is if

6 there was a significant change in the

7 certification rule. So I can see some of the

8 people getting their information from some of

9 these conference calls maybe having problems

10 would still have a problem if those dates were

11 shortened any. 

12 MR. EISNER: My recollection is

13 there's something in there that addresses

14 that. It's saying- In fact, that's on the

15 slide that you just had up, also, that we

16 would meet after the comment period ended and

17 the certification rule to decide whether the

18 schedule would be adjusted. But if everybody

19 seems to be saying now, most people seem to be

20 saying it should be months after certification

21 rule because we don't know when that's going

22 to come out. 
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1 So if the AEDM rule comes out on

2 December 31st of this year but the

3 certification final rule gets out on March

4 31st, you still have the AEDM rule coming out

5 and you have several months and then you have

6 this. Does it need to be 6, 9, 12, 15, and

7 18, or should it be two months less? 

8 MS. DANE: I guess that's what my

9 comment was.

10 MR. EISNER: Assuming nothing

11 substantive changes, nothing really

12 significant changes in the certification

13 proposal. 

14 MS. DANE: I'm pretty visual. I

15 need to know what significant means.

16 MR. EISNER: Big deal. 

17 MS. DANE: Okay. So . . . 

18 MR. WHITWELL: It's really up to

19 us to determine what's significant.

20 MR. EISNER: Well, you're going to

21 sit down in a group. But assuming that you

22 all sit down in a group and decide nothing
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1 significant has changed and the schedule

2 should stay the same, should the schedule be

3 a little shorter? Because as I recall was

4 inherent in coming up with these dates was

5 that the certification rule was going to be at

6 least two months. 

7 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know that

8 we ever really talked about that kind of

9 timing.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: No, no, and I'd have

11 to say that, I mean, right or wrong, I know

12 that said AEDM up there, but, in my mind, I

13 was thinking, okay, instead of December 31st,

14 I have six months, I have until June 14th. 

15 That's what I was envisioning in my head when

16 I looked at this and said, yes, that's doable.

17 MR. KLEISS: Could you scroll down

18 to the double asterisk, please? 

19 MS. BARHYDT: There's also the

20 six-month grace period already built into this

21 so --

22 MR. AMRANE: Could we, could we
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1 leave it the way it is, then we visit this

2 issue when the NOPR is out and when we see

3 whether there are significant -- I think

4 there's an understanding that we could revise

5 those dates. 

6 MS. BARHYDT: So if we just revise

7 them, we may have to SNOPR.

8 MR. KLEISS: The six-month grace

9 period means what? 

10 MS. BARHYDT: There would be no

11 enforcement actions brought during that

12 six-month period. 

13 MR. FLY: But the expectation is

14 that the numbers are in the database. 

15 MS. BARHYDT: That is the

16 requirement.

17 MR. FLY: It is not grace from

18 having numbers in the database. 

19 MS. BARHYDT: Well, it means that,

20 if you don't, I'm not bringing you a $200 a

21 day penalty. 

22 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So, in
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1 theory, if someone doesn't, is not paying

2 attention, they get caught off guard, the

3 final rule comes out, it comes out in March,

4 they got three months for heating products,

5 they really got nine months before anything

6 severe is going to -- 

7 MS. BARHYDT: Before anything

8 severe. Okay. 

9 MR. FLY: Letters from the general

10 counsel's office of DOE do not sit well. 

11 MS. MEYERS: But the flip side of

12 that is that you only, while we agreed to 12

13 months, you really only have nine months. 

14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 

15 Since we've only had a proposal on the table

16 for two months -- 

17 MR. WHITWELL: The grace period

18 applies to each of those dates? 

19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, yes, six months

20 from whenever it's due. 

21 MR. STANONIK: Well, the double

22 asterisks, the whole column. That's standard
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1 table formatting. It's at the heading of the

2 column, so it applies to every entry. 

3 MR. KLEISS: They're just saying

4 the grace period starts at the termination of

5 each -- 

6 MR. WHITWELL: Of the

7 implementation date, right? The six-month

8 grace period starting at the implementation

9 date, each implementation. 

10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,

11 PVI. Since we're only talking about the

12 potential of two months, it's been proposed

13 that we take two months out of this and all

14 the questions, can we change that to

15 certification instead of AEDM and just leave

16 the dates like they are? 

17 MS. BARHYDT: Minus two months. 

18 MR. MYERS: No. 

19 MR. STANONIK: One other thought

20 on the triple asterisks, what if it said

21 defaults two months after final CCC rule, if

22 significant changes in working group
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1 agreements or if CCC rule is finalized X

2 months after AEDM final rule? X is the

3 unknown. 

4 MS. MEYERS: Why again are we

5 calling this the AEDM compliance date? My

6 engineers are going to ask me this, and I

7 really don't know what to tell them yet. 

8 MR. JOHNSON: I think the reason

9 we tied it to the AEDM was because all the

10 other smaller manufacturers that are waiting

11 for that AEDM rule to come out so they know.

12 MS. BARHYDT: So the idea was that

13 the biggest holdup is not having an AEDM rule. 

14 But as soon as you have an AEDM rule, you can

15 start working on all of your values to make

16 sure you have an AEDM in place. And that is

17 why you need so much time to implement this in

18 the first place. So as soon as you have an

19 AEDM rule, it doesn't really matter when the

20 cert rule comes out because, at that point,

21 it's a paperwork exercise. The real hangup

22 was supposed to be testing and AEDM.
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1 MS. MEYERS: But this is not

2 insignificant, what will be in the

3 certification rule. 

4 MR. AMRANE: What you're saying is

5 fair. I think that you're right. But at the

6 same time, you know, we're not having a final

7 rule on certification, you know, people are

8 going to say, well, you know, what are the

9 requirements we should be complying? Yes, it

10 will be on the docket, and people will be able

11 to see those -- 

12 MS. BARHYDT: But if they get

13 their AEDM rule and they get their AEDMs in

14 place and they have all their certified

15 ratings, it doesn't take 18 months to fill out

16 a piece of paper. 

17 MR. AMRANE: I agree, but there

18 are other things. 

19 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, there's

20 more than just filling out, just filling in

21 data. There's more than that. 

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, we're
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1 going to have prepare, too. 

2 MR. WHITWELL: Good, good. 

3 MS. HOOTMAN: And if those aren't

4 there until the Nth hour, it's hard for us to

5 upload stuff. 

6 MR. STANONIK: But I think the

7 working group needs to be, I'll say sensitive

8 to the current situation. The current

9 situation is there is a certification rule,

10 right? There is a rule. There is, in fact,

11 an AEDM spelled out that nobody wants to use.

12 So those things are there, and so, first of

13 all, I think -- put it this way: the AEDM

14 proposal that will give a tool that you would

15 actually want to use and can use, we want that

16 to come out first. That, in fact, if DOE

17 can't do it sooner, that will be the first

18 opportunity to show what the ruling is as far

19 as extending those dates. If you don't have

20 that proposed AEDM rule, where are people

21 going to see that? 

22 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not sure I
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1 followed all of -

2 MR. STANONIK: All right. We've

3 talked about we really would like DOE, at some

4 point, to say this very first date is not

5 going to be applied. Okay. But let's just

6 say, for whatever, you know, good and various

7 reasons, DOE is not allowed to do it, can't do

8 it, not won't, can't, okay? So when is going

9 to be the first opportunity to publically tell

10 everybody involved that these dates are

11 planning to be moved? It's going to be the

12 AEDM proposal. I'll ask you what other

13 notification would you have an opportunity to

14 do that? 

15 MR. AMRANE: My understanding is

16 that the AEDM rule is already done. You're

17 not going to be able to put the dates in

18 there. 

19 MS. BARHYDT: I said we don't know

20 exactly when everything coming out. 

21 MR. AMRANE: Oh, okay, because

22 that would be a good way to do it then if you
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1 can put the dates in the AEDM rule. That

2 would be --

3 MS. BARHYDT: I just said I wasn't

4 going to commit to it because I don't know

5 when the rule is coming out. 

6 MR. FLY: But if the certification

7 rule, which contains the dates, comes out

8 after the 31st, that's a problem. 

9 MS. MEYERS: They can't be too far

10 apart because you could have product lines in

11 limbo. I mean, what do you do with new

12 products coming out? How do you certify it? 

13 How do you group it? 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: The same way you

15 would do for existing products. I mean,

16 there's no difference. You're going to have

17 to do them across the board. 

18 MR. STANONIK: I'm sure you'll

19 answer it if you can. Okay. So you have this

20 AEDM rule and you get the proposal out. When

21 that rule is finalized is certainly within

22 DOE's decision-making authority, for the most
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1 part. So the AEDM rule comes out sometime

2 later, whenever it can be done. Certification

3 proposal comes out. If there's a huge lag,

4 and let's say, I'll be absurd here, eight

5 months. There's a huge lag. DOE could work

6 it such that the final rule on the AEDM gets

7 finalized closer to when the other rule gets

8 finalized, right? I mean, that could be

9 worked out. 

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I think the

11 answer to that is yes, but it also sounded to

12 me like you were saying DOE might delay

13 publication of the AEDM rule to get it closer

14 to the cert rule, and I don't think we would

15 want to do that. We want to get the AEDM rule

16 out as soon as possible. 

17 MR. STANONIK: All right. I would 

18 say then --

19 MR. AMRANE: But if you can put

20 the dates in AEDM, that would be -- 

21 MS. BARHYDT: I understand.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Proposed dates. 
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1 They would be proposed dates in the AEDM rule,

2 right? Or would they be final? No. Final

3 dates? No, they can't -- 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'd have to

5 propose them, regardless of where we put them. 

6 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, but it would

7 be proposed in the AEDM rule because then it

8 would be -- I would think the proposed dates,

9 the real proposed dates, would be based on,

10 would be in the NOPR for the certification. 

11 Oh, okay. So you want to, so the proposed

12 dates would come out in the AEDM rule, but

13 nobody knows what the rule is yet because the

14 NOPR for the rule is not out yet? 

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: For a period of

16 time. 

17 MR. WHITWELL: That would be a

18 problem. 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're in the

20 middle of developing new products --

21 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think

22 everybody is talking entirely about the same
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1 thing. 

2 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe not. Maybe

3 I'm confused. I feel like I'm confused. 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So somewhere, in

5 one of the two rules, we have to propose the

6 dates, right? It doesn't really, I mean, some

7 people may have opinions about where we do it

8 because it signals our attempt in one place

9 sooner than another. And then, in a final

10 rule, one of the two of them has the finalized

11 dates. So final dates will be keyed off

12 another date, whatever it is. Right now, it's

13 publication of the AEDM final rule.

14 MR. WHITWELL: My question, it

15 sounds like, and maybe I misunderstand what

16 you're saying, but it sounds like you want to

17 have, it's possible to have the final dates or

18 the effective dates for certification in the

19 AEDM rule, but nobody knows what the

20 certification, final certification or proposed

21 certification requirements are yet because

22 that NOPR is not out yet.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is possible.

2 MR. WHITWELL: To me, I think

3 people would have --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So the

5 idea would be, even if we -- I have no idea

6 what she wants to do. But even if we -- by

7 the way this is my caveat. With that caveat,

8 we could, you will have both NOPRs out before

9 a final rule comes out. I can guarantee that. 

10 Even if we had, even if we put the proposed

11 rule in here with the proposed dates in the

12 AEDM rule, you'll see the proposed

13 certification rule before you see a final rule

14 for AEDM, simply because of comment notice and

15 comment process timing things. 

16 So there's no intention here to

17 lag significantly. It's just that you're

18 passing to ASRAC something two months later. 

19 We have to have that official vote. We have

20 to go through the process before I can get

21 something out. I mean, even if I were to

22 write it tomorrow and get it through a review,
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1 ASRAC's meeting is not until September 12th to

2 get an official vote. 

3 MS. MEYERS: So what if we held

4 them and released them at the same time? 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're supposed to

6 get AEDMs out as soon as possible, I think,

7 right? 

8 MS. MEYERS: But given this issue

9 and if it's two months that we're talking

10 about, is it better for all industry players

11 to release them at the same time?

12 MR. FLY: It delays the whole

13 process and the implementation date ends up

14 being the same as if you would have -- 

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. You're

16 not gaining anything. 

17 MR. FLY: -- put it out with the

18 certification date. So why don't we just tie

19 it to the certification -- 

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're going in

21 circles here. 

22 MR. KLEISS: Attaching things to
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1 the AEDM also creates a sense of urgency that

2 you get on the AEDM right away, which I think

3 is not a bad thing. 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm trying to.

5 MR. KLEISS: No, no, no, it's

6 good. I'm supporting what we've got. 

7 MR. EISNER: And Laura has amended

8 it. I don't know if that means she agrees to

9 it, but she has amended it, the number three

10 asterisk footnote. You've got to scroll, I

11 guess. It defaults two months after the final

12 CCE rule, significant changes from the working

13 group agreement or if the certification final

14 rule is issued more than three months after

15 the AEDM rule. It sounds to me like that

16 addresses some of the concerns you had about

17 if they're too far apart. So if DOE is

18 willing to agree to that, is everybody else

19 willing to agree to that?

20 MR. HON: I'm not prepared to do

21 that. 

22 MR. EISNER: Okay. Would you say
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1 why? 

2 MR. HON: It's just drawing the

3 process out. The AEDM rule should be out

4 first.

5 MR. EISNER: The AEDM rule could

6 be, would be out first.

7 MR. HON: Yes. And then we're

8 delaying it until the CCE rule comes out.

9 MR. EISNER: Only if it's more

10 than three months after the AEDM. 

11 MR. HON: But that could easily

12 happen.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Charlie wants cert

14 as soon as possible. 

15 MR. FLY: You could be referred to

16 certified before the certification rule comes

17 out. 

18 MR. HON: If everybody else is

19 with me, I'm going. There's a default process

20 here. 

21 MR. EISNER: So we do not have

22 consensus. We have one negative vote -- 
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1 MS. BARHYDT: I'll negative vote

2 on that. 

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Negative vote on

4 just that line; is that what we're saying? 

5 MR. STANONIK: The three-month

6 option. 

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, three-month

8 option. Okay. 

9 MR. AMRANE: Hopefully, DOE would

10 be on time, and there'd be no three months. 

11 MS. MEYERS: I don't want to delay

12 it either, but, practically, if it's not

13 finalized until, you know, for 120 days and

14 that happens because it's significantly

15 changed, you got significant comments -- 

16 MS. BARHYDT: If it's significant,

17 it goes through the circle. 

18 MR. STANONIK: Significance is

19 addressed. 

20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 

21 What happens to the folks that have to comply

22 in six months if it's six months before the
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1 final rule comes out? I think there has to be

2 something in there. 

3 MR. WHITWELL: Well, hopefully

4 not, right? But, you know, what if it is? I

5 have faith, but there needs to be a fallback

6 position. I just think . . . 

7 MR. KLEISS: Remember the

8 six-month grace period at the end of this,

9 too. I think this is workable.

10 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, the

11 compliance date, obviously, will not be prior

12 to the issuance of the rule. I mean, there's

13 no way. At that point, we would be let's not

14 bring anything. 

15 MR. EISNER: Would you at least

16 have 30 days before the effective date, before

17 making that six months being the maximum

18 delay, or do you feel that's unnecessary in

19 this situation? Some are just talking the

20 difference between three months and five

21 months. 

22 MR. HON: Well, we don't have
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1 that. If somebody, if we get a thousand

2 comments on this CCE rule, it could delay that

3 a long time. 

4 MR. EISNER: And then they have to

5 delay these dates. 

6 MR. HON: To somebody, yes. 

7 MR. EISNER: That's what I'm

8 saying. We're talking about a maximum of five

9 months unless DOE believes that it can issue

10 the rule the same day the implementation

11 starts. 

12 MR. BALLO: But you could add

13 something there, you know, in no event shall

14 certification be required less than however

15 many months from the final CCE rule, less than

16 two months, less than -- 

17 MR. EISNER: That's for people

18 that are already over the three months. 

19 Everybody seems to expect it to be a month or

20 two behind. It's more than five months

21 behind, it's going to have to be extended. So

22 the question is whether there's any advantage
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1 to putting in if it's more than three months

2 or four months, and five months is the maximum

3 anyway. 

4 MR. MYERS: I like Tim's idea. 

5 Under no circumstances will compliance be

6 required in less than two months after the

7 rule is issued. There's been talk about the

8 grace period. Someone asked what would happen

9 if it was six months and you got six months

10 compliance. I don't know if manufacturers

11 want to get a rule that they can't comply with

12 and the only reason they're not in serious

13 trouble is because there's not going to be

14 enforcement. They want to comply with the

15 rule when it says you're supposed to comply

16 with it. They need at least some amount of

17 time to be able to do that. 

18 MR. EISNER: Yes, I think what the

19 grace period is for is to provide educational

20 experiences when you find a mistake was made,

21 rather than a penalty. Is this something DOE

22 can live with, otherwise meaning Laura? 
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, I can live with

2 that. 

3 MR. EISNER: Can everybody else? 

4 Do we have unanimous consensus on this? 

5 MR. HON: This is more reasonable

6 because there has to be some span between. 

7 You have to give the really tight schedule

8 people some period there. 

9 MR. EISNER: All right. Do we

10 have any disagreement with this, any objection

11 to this? Any abstention? 

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Again, I'm having a

13 hard time seeing what it says, so I'd like to

14 just -- 

15 MR. EISNER: What it's saying is,

16 essentially, if the rule is more than four

17 months behind, the dates are going to have to

18 be extended. You're going to have at least 60

19 days after the rule comes out. So no

20 abstentions, no objections? Everybody's still

21 awake? 

22 MS. DANE: So, Laura, on the line
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1 with the triple, okay, you're assuming six

2 months grace on the second. On the triple

3 one, it says defines two months after CCC

4 rule. Does that mean, is there a number that

5 goes in there, or are you just -- 

6 MS. BARHYDT: No. So that column

7 is what has the asterisks, and so the heading

8 is that it's that many months after the AEDM

9 rule. And it changes two months after the

10 final CCE rule, if significant changes occur. 

11 MS. DANE: Okay. Or, and then in

12 no event shall certification be required less

13 than two months, that's in case they start

14 bumping into each other? Okay. 

15 MR. HON: Now, when this happens,

16 do all the others use the same formula for

17 reduction? If the six months gets pulled down

18 to two months? 

19 MR. EISNER: Six months from a

20 different date. It runs from the date the

21 rule . . . 

22 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, I see what
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1 you're saying, and, no, that's not what I was

2 thinking. 

3 MR. HON: That's why I'm asking. 

4 MS. BARHYDT: I think it only

5 affects the first four. 

6 MR. MYERS: Just there's a

7 minimum. Put the minimum on there. Everybody

8 gets the same minimum, and others get

9 advantage of a later implementation time -- 

10 MR. FLY: So if it takes you 18

11 months to get it out after the CCE rule, then

12 everybody gets it. 

13 MR. HON: That's fine. That's why

14 I wanted to make sure we weren't pushing

15 extensions. 

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 

17 MR. EISNER: All right. Any

18 objections? Any abstentions? Everybody

19 awake? Okay. I think we've got this one

20 amended. Now that takes us back to the

21 bullets on the certification rule and what we

22 want to say to ASRAC. That's where we were,
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1 the three bullets. Anybody want to add to

2 this, change any of this? Anything else you'd

3 want to say about the rule? 

4 MR. WHITWELL: Do we need to say

5 specifically that our recommendation is that

6 we have, that we separate out the compliance

7 piece with the verification piece? We have a

8 certification rule and that follow-up with the

9 verification rule. 

10 MR. EISNER: Right now, I think

11 the drafts that I did says that we would begin

12 working on the certification rules as soon as

13 it's approved. We would then try to resolve

14 the differences on verification, send that to

15 ASRAC. If time permitted, it could be added

16 to -- 

17 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, I remember,

18 yes, yes.

19 MR. EISNER: But there's no reason

20 we can't say that.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And so then I

22 think the first statement up there then about
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1 moving very quickly is specifically with

2 respect to the certification.

3 MR. EISNER: And these are three

4 bullets just for certification.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 

6 MR. EISNER: Anything else? 

7 Anybody want to say anything about the

8 friendships made during these negotiations? 

9 Do we want to say Laura and Ashley did a great

10 job? So no additions to this? Everybody is

11 fine with what's up there? I hope we still

12 have a quorum. 

13 MR. MYERS: Is there another

14 statement, or is this it? 

15 MR. EISNER: These are three

16 different bullets.

17 MS. BARHYDT: For certification.

18 MR. EISNER: Four bullets, four

19 bullets. These are verification. 

20 MS. BARHYDT: I mean

21 certification. I spoke wrong. 

22 MR. EISNER: Okay. Four for
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1 certification. Everybody is okay with that? 

2 Nothing else? All right. 

3 MS. HOOTMAN: So, Neil, do we get

4 a copy of that?

5 MR. EISNER: The bullets? Your

6 bullets or -- 

7 MS. HOOTMAN: The report.

8 MR. EISNER: They usually -- don't

9 you post it someplace? 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, so this will

11 go in SharePoint, and your report will be put

12 in the docket. 

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Docket, okay. And

14 then this will go in SharePoint tonight? 

15 Okay. 

16 MR. WHITWELL: When should we

17 expect the report?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ask Neil. 

19 MR. EISNER: I would think we'd

20 have a report to them before the end of the

21 week. I've already given them a rough draft

22 with certain assumptions being made about
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1 these dates. 

2 MR. MYERS: We already voted on

3 what's on the screen? 

4 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

5 MR. BALLO: One other point,

6 though. Looking back at our scope of working

7 group negotiations document from many months

8 ago, we were supposed to talk about

9 enforcement, enforcement testing, sample

10 sizes, tolerances. We haven't done that. 

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Tim, that's kind of

12 why they keep saying what do we have left,

13 what do we have left, and everyone says

14 verification, verification. Thank you. I

15 thought there was something else.

16 MS. BARHYDT: I guess I don't

17 understand the bullet. We put that on there

18 because people said that they were interested

19 in that, and I don't even understand the

20 bullet. 

21 MS. DANE: Aren't those things

22 part of the verification program, though? I
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1 mean, can't they be? 

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Enforcement is

3 not. 

4 MS. DANE: Okay. Then that

5 enforcement and tolerances and the other

6 things that Tim mentioned are still open. I

7 guess we'd have to take care of them in our

8 offline meetings, wouldn't we? 

9 MR. AMRANE: Well, for example,

10 the enforcement requirements for commercial

11 HVAC are not the same as residential HVAC. 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: They are. We had

13 this conversation. It's the -- the cert

14 tolerances are not the same, the enforcements

15 are. You don't trust me yet? 

16 MR. WHITWELL: Trust but verify. 

17 That's what you're doing, right? 

18 MR. SACHS: Are we just trying to

19 figure out why we can't leave? 

20 MR. EISNER: I want to see if we

21 had more to do before the cert reports. Could

22 you read that again, Tim?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I can show you.

2 Can I just show you they are the same? 

3 MR. AMRANE: But that goes beyond

4 that. I think the idea is what we have

5 currently in the CFR is it would be justified,

6 what we have up to date, is it justified? 

7 MR. MYERS: Is it workable? 

8 MR. AMRANE: Is it workable? I

9 mean, those kinds of questions because it was

10 done a long time ago and we don't know how it

11 was done. 

12 MS. HOOTMAN: True. And in light

13 of what we said in AEDM and some of the other

14 stuff, I don't know. I really would have to

15 go back and look at enforcement to say. 

16 MR. EISNER: It was enforcement

17 and what else? 

18 MS. DANE: No, that was the AEDMs. 

19 But if things were supposed to be able to come

20 back out on the table, those things should at

21 least be discussed. So I think they would

22 show as open items on the ASRAC list. And I
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1 would suggest we talk about that at the next

2 meeting and decide whether that --

3 MR. EISNER: Do we want to say on

4 this that we have to resolve something or we

5 have to first discuss whether the current

6 rules are adequate or need change? 

7 MS. DANE: I don't think there's

8 enough people here today to decide whether the

9 current rules are adequate enough, and it was

10 one of the things on the schedule we had open

11 for negotiations, so I would think that we

12 would want to have this carry over to the

13 September meeting and then decide whether or

14 not it's something else we pick up and run

15 with. 

16 MR. EISNER: That's what I was

17 getting at. 

18 MS. DANE: Yes.

19 MR. EISNER: Do we need to change

20 the existing rules after discussing those?

21 MS. DANE: We may have to.

22 MR. EISNER: Yes, I agree. But is
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1 it possible that we'll look at the existing

2 rules and, maybe with guidance or maybe with

3 explanations, everybody would say, okay,

4 they're satisfactory? I think that's what you

5 were saying.

6 MS. DANE: Right. But there's not

7 enough people here or on the phone --

8 MR. EISNER: No, I'm not saying we

9 discuss them today.

10 MS. DANE: Okay. 

11 MS. BARHYDT: Will that work? 

12 MS. DANE: Yes. 

13 MR. EISNER: All right. It's a

14 quarter after three. Would it be beneficial

15 to spend a little time, for those who are

16 still here, to -- hey, guys. What I'm

17 thinking is we might spend some time on

18 boilers so that the group can spend more

19 valuable time between now and mid September in

20 discussing this. If they get some feeling

21 from what's left of the big group, in terms of

22 whether we should divide the two categories up
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1 into separate categories, but you guys know

2 this better than I do. And I'd just like to

3 let them have time that would be better spent 

4 --

5 MS. DANE: You mean to present

6 their issues? 

7 MR. EISNER: To go over this

8 sheet.

9 MS. DANE: Okay. I understand. 

10 MR. EISNER: But go over the sheet

11 and say, well, what about this or maybe we

12 should divide this. 

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, they left. 

14 MR. EISNER: No, I'm not saying

15 make decisions. I'm saying, with everybody in

16 the room, maybe some ideas on what you focus

17 on or whether you should divide things up. But

18 if you think they are necessary, then fine.

19 MR. KLEISS: You're saying just to

20 present where we are to the group -- 

21 MR. EISNER: This group. 

22 MR. KLEISS: -- that's here -- 
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1 MR. EISNER: Right. To see if

2 they can give you some advice or make some

3 suggestions or ideas that you can then use

4 between now and the next meeting to modify

5 this proposal in some way to make it more

6 refined. 

7 MR. SACHS: My sense is, from one

8 question, that we might let the broader group

9 have input to the one you raised. Is there

10 some division that would help us solidify the

11 subset where consensus can be built, and what

12 I'm hearing is either we're separating boilers

13 from water heaters or we're going to separate

14 large boilers from small boilers plus water

15 heaters. Is that a fair summary?

16 MR. KLEISS: The current or the

17 discussions that we had, we did provide some

18 delineation between different sizes of

19 appliances or boilers or water heaters. We

20 did not separate out boilers and water

21 heaters. But I think that, in some of our

22 sidebar conversations, that's been determined
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1 as being beneficial and it is something that

2 we will be doing. That it would potentially

3 help to move the needle. So I believe that we

4 probably -- 

5 MR. MYERS: What would potentially

6 move the needle? 

7 MR. KLEISS: To separate the

8 discussion into commercial water heaters and

9 commercial water boilers and that we might be

10 able to move things forward better with that

11 or at least isolate what the stalemate is to

12 even a smaller subset, which I think will be

13 more manageable. 

14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers

15 with PVI. I certainly didn't hear that in any

16 of the discussions while I was there. We have

17 addressed the large boilers with general

18 agreement, not final agreement, on not having

19 a requirement above a five million. Frank

20 Stanonik with AHRI indicated that we might

21 consider adding in steam boilers up to a

22 somewhat larger size, and I think those are
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1 all within the possibility. But that took

2 care of the 20 million, 40 million, and even

3 the 6 million BTU water boilers and water

4 heaters where it's difficult to find, if not

5 impossible to find, laboratories that can do

6 those tests. 

7 So that leaves the stuff,

8 notwithstanding steam boilers, smaller than 5

9 million BTUs. And I didn't hear anything in

10 the conversation that lended itself towards a

11 delineation between water heaters and boilers,

12 one solution for water heaters, another

13 solution for boilers once they got down to

14 that size. Notwithstanding the fact that

15 there is a desire by ABMA and Cleaver-Brooks

16 to have no requirements, regardless of size,

17 for boilers, there was a willingness to accept

18 the lower number of tests by ABMA and by

19 Cleaver-Brooks with a ten percent sampling

20 rate up to two and a half million and a five

21 percent sampling rate above that, never being

22 less than one per year. They were willing to
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1 -- they didn't like that. They wanted it to

2 be zero, they thought it ought to be zero, but

3 they were willing to flex. 

4 MR. KLEISS: I agree. And my

5 comment is based on conversations outside of

6 the larger group, and I think there's some

7 potential for improvement. 

8 MR. SACHS: Frank, if I might

9 interject. This is Harvey. My question

10 really was to each of the three of you that's

11 here, and I think I heard Karen and Jeff both

12 indicate that that might have the potential to

13 be fruitful. So I'm now asking you do you

14 think it might be a potential route that might

15 converge on one or the other to have separate

16 discussions about boilers and water heaters? 

17 MR. MYERS: I don't think they're

18 separate topics, but I'm not opposed to having

19 discussions about them in a common group,

20 focusing on one and the other so that we can

21 compare and contrast. I never want to say

22 never. There might be a path there, so I'm
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1 certainly willing to participate in that. I

2 haven't yet seen where there is a difference

3 once you get down below 5 million BTUs. When

4 I look at those products I see a common

5 entity, you know. The application is

6 different, but that's, again, that's just my

7 view. 

8 MR. SACHS: Thank you. That's

9 what I was looking for. Frank's been around,

10 Frank Stanonik has been around a long time. 

11 Can I ask for his view also? 

12 MR. STANONIK: Well, I mean, on

13 that point, I strongly disagree because the

14 commercial, the bulk of the commercial water

15 heater market looks something like this and

16 probably fires in the range of 100,000 to

17 maybe 250 - 300, okay? Are there products

18 that are out here? Yes. But the bulk of

19 commercial water heater product is this tank

20 type of product for a tube type of product

21 that still is firing in the hundreds of

22 thousands, not in the millions, okay? 
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1 I think there is a huge difference

2 in terms of the discussion of what kind of

3 verification program we would apply. Again,

4 Frank's products may be different, but the

5 bulk of the products are less costly. Talking

6 commercial products, they're certainly on the

7 range of a relatively low-priced item. You've

8 got electric water heaters we've got to throw

9 in there. And I think that, to me, it would

10 be easier to look at both of them as separate. 

11 And when we get done, we can see where maybe

12 there's commonalities or whatever. But I

13 think they are two very different discussions

14 because, I mean, frankly, you know, the

15 companies that are involved in this type of

16 product will have relatively different

17 interests in exactly what happens with both

18 the products. And so I think, again, the

19 discussion would be different. 

20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 

21 I don't disagree with a single word that Frank

22 Stanonik just said, and I attempted during the
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1 negotiations to break out somewhat along those

2 lines with build to stock versus build to

3 order, which is where the commonality between

4 boilers and water heaters gets really tight

5 and there was little appetite back, not little

6 appetite, there was no appetite in any change

7 whatsoever.

8 So if we could find something like

9 that where there was a difference, certainly. 

10 And to that regard, I understand there are

11 small but mass quantities of small commercial

12 boilers that are basically just residential,

13 sorry, water heaters are just residential

14 water heaters on steroids. They are cookie

15 cutter, and I have no problem with something 

16 different for them than for other products. 

17 But so far, I haven't heard any willingness to

18 get anywhere. 

19 MR. SACHS: Frank, this is Harvey

20 again. And rattling around in my brain are

21 two disconnected factoids, and one of them was

22 that I thought I heard you earlier this summer
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1 referring to a potential natural break at 140

2 gallons for water heaters and I'm more sure I

3 remember that there's an ASME break, but I

4 don't remember what that level is at or

5 whether it's BTUs per hour or gallons. 

6 MR. KLEISS: A hundred and twenty,

7 but that's more of an enforcement thing than

8 an ASME -- 

9 MR. MYERS: No, there's actually,

10 in the AHRI program, there is a break in the

11 commercial section. I remember the gallons is

12 130 gallons. 

13 MR. STANONIK: It was 500,000.

14 MR. MYERS: And 500,000 --

15 MR. STANONIK: BTUs per hour.

16 MR. MYERS: -- on the BTUs. 

17 Either one of those move you into a different

18 category. So if you were less than 130 and

19 less than 500,000, you went into more of what

20 you're talking about, and I'd have no problem

21 with using some kind of definitional language

22 like that to identify difference in the
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1 program. 

2 MR. SACHS: Jeff and Karen, is

3 that -- 

4 MS. MEYERS: Well, I totally

5 disagree with Frank's veiled comments towards

6 me regarding, you know, I've not heard

7 anything -- I'm trying to work out a deal

8 here, and I've been working with other people.

9 You're anti, you know, comments

10 were made, derogatory comments were made

11 towards Rheem in the last couple of working

12 groups, one by HTP and now in your comments,

13 and it's not appreciated. I've not given up

14 on the negotiations. I'm still working. I've

15 been having conversations with others, and you

16 have repeatedly stated in this meeting that

17 you have not heard anything because -- and,

18 you know, that's just wrong. We haven't

19 broken up the other work agreements. 

20 I'm trying to come up with

21 something that I can propose. I have to work

22 with other people within my company. I'm
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1 going to support the verification programs

2 that are in place today that have been

3 effective. And your comments are just not

4 appreciated, Frank. 

5 And, you know, when members who

6 are not part of the working group send

7 documents to this, to DOE and Navigant,

8 without sharing them with the working group -- 

9 I'm starting to get a little distressed here

10 and I don't, you know -- I'm still trying to

11 work something out and find a path forward,

12 and your comments to the contrary are not

13 appreciated. And that's it. I don't want to

14 listen to it anymore. 

15 MR. MYERS: Karen, I appreciate

16 your concerns. Let me say that the document

17 that was sent out was not completed until a

18 few minutes before the meeting this morning

19 and it was under the direction of our

20 facilitator. There was no intent of saying

21 this is anything other than it's what we can

22 do. He asked me to do what we could do. 
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1 That's what we could do.

2 With reference to you and your

3 company, I have not spoken any names, but if

4 I have to speak a name it is AHRI. I have not

5 been able to work with AHRI to get any

6 flexibility at all. 

7 MR. TRITSIS: And that's where you

8 are wrong again. This is Bill Tritsis with

9 AHRI, Frank. I was in that group, and we are

10 also disappointed that there is no willingness

11 on your part to come to terms with issues and

12 items of integrity. Your proposals come to

13 that, you will not implement a verification

14 program don't stand up to scrutiny, and this

15 is where we disappointed in your lack of

16 cooperation here and willingness to

17 compromise. 

18 MR. EISNER: Okay. Let me stress

19 that sometimes it's good to get things out in

20 the open and hear views. I'd like to stop it

21 right now. If the three of you would like to

22 talk further, I think I should be included,
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1 and we should sit down in a room separately

2 and talk about it. I'd be glad to do that

3 sometime before the next meeting. I'd be glad

4 to help over the phone. I think everybody has

5 got to take a step back and a deep breath. I

6 think everybody has been trying hard. Let's

7 keep doing that. 

8 Okay. There are some other items

9 on the list. I'd like to hear if people have

10 any thoughts on it. One where we seem to have

11 a lot of options is who can conduct the tests? 

12 Any thoughts on the different proposals there

13 or anything others would like to say about how

14 it might interact with recommendations they're

15 making? 

16 MS. BARHYDT: What does HVAC look

17 at -- or had you all talked about that issue

18 yet? 

19 MS. HOOTMAN: What? 

20 MR. KLEISS: Whether or not there

21 needed to be witness testing, third-party

22 testing, or manufacturer -- 
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: We've been working

2 on the side, but we haven't all agreed to

3 something, yes. 

4 MR. HON: I think we don't need to

5 be in the middle of these conversations

6 because 17025 certified bodies are supposed to

7 make those decisions themselves, how they do

8 their program. 

9 MS. BARHYDT: So you think that it

10 should be sufficient to require 17025 lab and

11 then that's it, it's good?

12 MR. HON: Yes, because they have

13 to have some flexibility on how they, because

14 they're responsible for the data that they are

15 certifying. And that's the nature of 17025. 

16 MR. TRITSIS: We find -- this is

17 Bill Tritsis with AHRI. We find that there's

18 a big difference between, again, a 17025 as

19 being an accreditation laboratory that is

20 capable of conducting a test and a laboratory

21 that runs a certification program. There is

22 a different standard, and that's where the
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1 Guide 65 comes in. There has to be

2 impartiality, so, again, this is going to

3 depend on labs having, you know, under the

4 Energy Star or whatever other program -- 

5 MS. BARHYDT: I thought 17025

6 required independence, as well. 

7 MS. DANE: It does. But Guide 65

8 is in place in the third-party lay-up that we

9 use, and I've talked to their accreditation

10 body and, when the 17065 is available, they

11 will be up to that, also. But that's not

12 until 2014 with a three-year implementation

13 period, which is in the documentation that I

14 sent you last Saturday that I had researched. 

15 So I would say that I want to be

16 very careful that we don't misrepresent what

17 some of the third-party labs in our test

18 program are that we're using because they

19 already have that and AHRI uses the same labs

20 we do. So if it's not good enough for us to

21 use them, it's not good enough for AHRI to use

22 them. 
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1 MR. TRITSIS: There's no

2 difference. I mean, I don't think you

3 understand the -- 

4 MS. DANE: I'm not an idiot.

5 MR. TRITSIS: Look we're not saying

6 that the lab doesn't have a -- they can give

7 you exactly what you're going to get, okay?

8 But what we're trying to present to you here

9 is that there has to be a distinction between

10 the laboratory running a verification program. 

11 There are items of impartiality that have to

12 be in place. Again, that's what this ISO 65

13 puts in place. 

14 MS. DANE: But, again, Bill,

15 you're wrong because in 1995 OSHA already went

16 and put this out, and NIST has answered to it,

17 ANSI has answered to it. There is that that

18 exists in that data now. 

19 Now, I understand that you're

20 trying to protect your market and your

21 program, and I appreciate that. But you are

22 misstating what is going on and whether or not
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1 they have impartiality or not. They have that

2 in both systems now. So I don't know how you

3 can sit there and say that the lab and the

4 certification company isn't when there are

5 tons of government officials in groups that

6 use those same labs to verify the data. 

7 MR. TRITSIS: I don't think you

8 understand what we are saying here. 

9 MS. DANE: You call me stupid one

10 more time and they may have to get a room for

11 you and I. 

12 MR. AMRANE: He didn't call you

13 stupid. 

14 MR. TRITSIS: Did anybody call you

15 stupid? 

16 MR. EISNER: Everybody, everybody,

17 again, let me bring you back to the very first

18 meeting. Questions are appropriate. 

19 Characterizations of answers are not

20 necessarily appropriate. You don't have to

21 say things like you don't understand. 

22 I think it's time to let everybody
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1 go home and have a good Labor Day weekend. 

2 Hopefully, we can start fresh in the middle of

3 September. Just think about the way you

4 respond to each other and the fact that you

5 can ask questions, but let's not get into

6 characterizations like we've been getting into

7 from people about what they understand and

8 don't understand. 

9 So I'm sorry to end on a sad note. 

10 I hope everybody has a great weekend, and we

11 can come back ready to smile again and get

12 some work done. Thank you. 

13 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

14 matter was concluded at 3:34 p.m.)

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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A

$100,000 205:7

$200 308:20

A-L-L-Y 166:3

a.m 1:18 3:2 119:9

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65:8 129:20 149:1

151:1 168:14

174:17 194:12

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76:4 77:9,15

78:20 83:18

102:21 103:9,17

104:15 117:17

118:7,8,13 119:16

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121:4,9 122:2

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135:19 136:10,19

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ability 19:22 93:5

96:21 102:7 135:2

214:3 216:11

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48:20 51:13 77:8

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171:12 227:18

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15:2 22:8 50:6

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185:1 341:17

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accepted 6:2 27:3

283:20

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84:19 96:6 113:21

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action 83:8 153:4

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Advocates 173:9

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51:18,20,22

268:20 269:2

279:18 280:9

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311:19,22 312:13

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316:15,20 317:1,7

317:12 318:13,19

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238:4,8 244:19

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248:10 253:20

257:13 261:13

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284:13 309:12

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235:20 243:20

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29:12 51:16 66:19

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asked 73:12 104:16

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asking 32:1 45:17

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ASRAC's 263:7

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assembly 79:14

assessment 36:5

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assign 302:12

assigned 128:2,3

assigning 302:12

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145:11 166:21

182:1,7,15 201:17

219:21 243:13

260:15 261:1

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4:17 6:10,15 9:3

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103:3,14 105:17

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131:11 133:17

134:2,8 137:17

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140:17 142:17

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149:20 150:4,9

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behalf 250:20,20

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best 24:4 244:2,16

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239:21 240:2,10

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bigger 243:6

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cabinet 187:15

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California 73:22

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64:1,2,14 66:10

72:15,18 86:11

99:9 106:10 121:8

128:15 134:21

149:22 181:7,22

234:19 241:6

255:19 256:12,13

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calling 36:19 47:8

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calls 30:15 33:6

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capacities 11:15

capacity 11:17 86:3

87:2

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128:12

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134:9

care 43:22 47:20

109:22 128:16

141:9 149:1

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carrier 2:20 160:2

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case 7:4 22:15 25:3

25:22 26:7 27:6,7

28:2 35:7 37:15

38:10 52:4 54:4,8

57:10 58:20 59:21

63:6 72:16 102:17

103:10,16 108:1

121:4 127:14

130:4 132:7

134:20 138:2

143:20 146:9,15

156:17 159:10

161:14 232:16

250:7,8 252:10

269:8 302:5

328:13

CaseArts 2:12

cases 9:16 26:9

34:4 41:10 50:12

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55:11 72:10

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catalogs 3:16 154:3

categories 237:9

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caught 189:14

290:21 309:2

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causing 226:17,20

caveat 319:7,7

CCC 310:21 311:1

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cert 183:22 184:4

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50:18 61:18 62:13

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CHARLES 2:8

Charlie 6:11 44:19

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271:1 273:7

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Charlie's 47:12,18

chart 153:9

cheaper 94:17

cheating 39:1

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107:12 153:15

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child 63:11

China 49:1

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141:15

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chronics 281:15

circle 323:17

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circumstances 52:3

52:9,12 174:8

213:20 326:5

city 100:8,9,13,22

213:4

claim 12:17 19:16

20:7 37:21 171:21

211:17

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classification 30:17

33:12 34:3 169:22

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clause 213:14

259:10

clean 177:10 200:1

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clear 62:14,20

75:19 126:21

133:21 134:5,17

136:22 175:1

176:15 232:8

238:19 253:8

271:9 275:5 288:2

300:17

cleared 156:12

217:3 297:18

clearer 176:13

clearly 155:12

Cleaver-Brooks

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clever 166:22

click 284:3

climate 42:20

climb 99:3

climbing 63:17

91:2

clock 199:4

close 16:15 229:16

230:6 231:21

285:15

closer 262:16 316:7

316:13

code 14:20,20

20:12,13 92:7,8

93:2,5,14,19,22

94:8 95:7,9,13

98:9 99:11,20

100:6,21 102:12

107:19 108:7,10

108:20,22 109:5

109:12,15 178:11

185:21 203:19

218:13

codes 100:8

COE 29:14

cognizant 155:5

color 92:18

colors 206:12

column 5:10,10 6:2

26:21 44:5 58:14

125:3 142:5 152:6

177:21 182:8,12

182:18 183:1

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28:5,14 36:22

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148:8 150:6

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185:6 186:12,20

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292:16 293:4,5,19

293:20 295:15,16

295:17,19 297:13

310:7,9 311:5

314:4 318:12

320:13,18 324:11

324:16 328:20,20

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266:6 268:15

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115:15 125:2,19

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138:22 141:3,11

142:22 143:1

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173:10 176:19

178:7 179:1 202:1

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244:8,10 245:9,16

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315:22

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80:13 86:6 92:16

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233:9 238:3 252:2

254:16,22 263:2

266:14 270:19

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117:18,21 118:4,9

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78:3,4 144:13

238:21 341:2

20,000 78:7

200 37:19,20 38:4,5

201 38:10

2011 160:12

2013 1:11 206:2

278:22 279:6

2014 352:12

21 265:20

22 265:20

23 184:8 195:10

208:18 209:7

25 119:7 228:18

250 50:3,5,8 54:21

55:4,17 117:12

168:9,10,17 169:7

169:10 343:17

26 266:14

26th 261:18,20

267:1

27th 296:11

28 1:11 265:20

29 265:20

2nd 194:3

3

3,000 46:18

3:34 355:14

30 53:14 57:3

194:19 238:21

281:13 324:16

30,000 78:4

300 38:5 343:17

31 175:7

31st 268:16 273:12

278:22 279:6,14

284:22 293:1

297:13 306:2,4

307:13 315:8

4

40 238:21 341:2

5

5 152:20 341:8

343:3

50 45:5

500,000 346:13,14

346:19

6

6 287:22 306:6

341:3

6'2 26:10 27:6

6'7 26:11

60 198:2 327:18

6097-6099 1:17

643 63:3

65 352:1,7 353:12

693ABC 62:17

698 124:15

7

8

8:30 1:18

8:40 3:2

80 25:8

893ABC 63:19,21

64:3,8,17 65:3,18

9

9 306:6

90 198:22 199:5

258:16,18

90-plus 198:22

950 1:17

98 237:20

99.5 237:22
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

395

Commercial Certification Work Group

US DOE

08-28-13

Washington, DC