U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office

Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512–1800; DC area (202) 512–1800

Fax: (202) 512–2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402–0001

56–913 PDF 2009

S. HRG. 111–528 

LAW ENFORCEMENT RESPONSES TO MEXICAN 

DRUG CARTELS 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND DRUGS 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

AND THE

SENATE CAUCUS ON INTERNATIONAL 

NARCOTICS CONTROL 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

MARCH 17, 2009 

Serial No. J–111–12 

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary 

( 

(II) 

PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont, Chairman 

HERB KOHL, Wisconsin 

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California 

RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, Wisconsin 

CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York 

RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois 

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland 

SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island 

RON WYDEN, Oregon 

AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota 

EDWARD E. KAUFMAN, Delaware 

ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania 

ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah 

CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa 

JON KYL, Arizona 

JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama 

LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina 

JOHN CORNYN, Texas 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

BRUCE A. COHEN, Chief Counsel and Staff Director 

NICHOLAS A. ROSSI, Republican Chief Counsel 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND DRUGS

RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois, Chairman 

HERB KOHL, Wisconsin 

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California 

RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, Wisconsin 

CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York 

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland 

AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota 

EDWARD E. KAUFMAN, Delaware 

LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina 

ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania 

ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah 

CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa 

JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

JOSEPH ZOGBY, Democratic Chief Counsel 

WALT KUHN, Republican Chief Counsel 

SENATE CAUCUS ON INTERNATIONAL NARCOTICS CONTROL

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California 

CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa 

JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

STATEMENTS OF COMMITTEE MEMBERS 

Page 

Durbin, Hon. Richard J., a U.S. Senator from the State of Illinois .................... 1 

prepared statement .......................................................................................... 75 

Feinstein, Hon. Dianne, a U.S. Senator from the State of California ................. 4 

Graham, Hon. Lindsey, a U.S. Senator from the State of South Carolina ......... 3 

Grassley, Hon. Charles E., a U.S. Senator from the State of Iowa ..................... 6 

Klobuchar, Hon. Amy, a U.S. Senator from the State of Minnesota ................... 29 

Sessions, Hon. Jeff, a U.S. Senator from the State of Alabama .......................... 43 

WITNESSES 

Aguirre, Jorge Luis, Journalist, El Paso, Texas .................................................... 40 

Dresser Guerra, Denise Eugenia, Professor, Department of Political Science, 

Instituto Tecnolo ́gico Auto ́nomo de Me ́xico, Mexico City, Mexico .................... 38 

Goodard, Terry, Attorney General, State of Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona ............. 8 

Hoover, William, Assistant Director for Field Operations, Bureau of Alcohol, 

Tabacco, Firearms and Explosives, and Anthony P. Placido, Assistant Administrator and Chief of Intelligence, Drug Enforcement Administration, 

U.S. Deaprtment of Justice, Washington, DC ................................................... 11 

Kibble, Kumar C., Deputy Director, Office of Investigations, Immigration 

and Customs Enforcement, U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Washington, DC ............................................................................................................. 16 

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 

Responses of William Hoover to questions submitted by Senator Coburn ......... 46 

SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD 

Aguirre, Jorge Luis, Journalist, El Paso, Texas, statement ................................ 49 

Bouchard, Sheriff Michael J., President, Major County Sheriffs’ Association, 

Alexandria, Virginia, letter ................................................................................. 51 

Brooks, Ronald E., President, National Narcotic Officer’s Associations’ Coalition, West Covina, California, statement ........................................................... 52 

Dresser Guerra, Denise Eugenia, Professor, Department of Political Science, 

Instituto Tecnolo ́gico Auto ́nomo de Me ́xico, Mexico City, Mexico .................... 70 

Goodard, Terry, Attorney General, State of Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona, statement and response ............................................................................................... 77 

Helmeke, Paul, President, Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, Washington, DC, statement .......................................................................................... 92 

Hoover, William, Assistant Director for Field Operations, Bureau of Alcohol, 

Tabacco, Firearms and Explosives, and Anthony P. Placido, Assistant Administrator and Chief of Intelligence, Drug Enforcement Administration, 

U.S. Deaprtment of Justice, Washington, DC, statement ................................ 97 

Hurtt, Harold L., Chief of Police, Houston Police Department, Houston, 

Texas, letter .......................................................................................................... 114 

Kibble, Kumar C., Deputy Director, Office of Investigations, Immigration 

and Customs Enforcement, U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Washington, DC, statement .......................................................................................... 117 

Lansdowne, William M., Chief of Police San Diego Police Department, San 

Diego, California, letter ....................................................................................... 128 

National District Attorneys Association, Thomas W. Sneddon Jr., Interim 

Executive Director, Alexandria, Virginia, letter ................................................ 130 

Page

IV 

National Sheriffs’ Association, Sheriff David A. Goad, President and Aaron 

D. Kennard, Executive Director, Alexandria, Virginia, letter .......................... 131 

Nee, Thomas J., President, National Association of Police Organizations, Alexandria, Virginia, statement ................................................................................. 134 

Olson, Joy, Executive Director, Washington Office of Latin America on the 

Merida Initiative, Washington, DC, statement ................................................. 137 

Selee, Andrew, Ph.D., Director, Mexico Institute, Washington, DC, statement 146 

Slocumb, Dennis, International Executive Vice President, International Union 

of Police Associations, Sarasota, Florida, statement ......................................... 151 

Western Attorneys General, Chris Coppin, Legal Director, Albuquerque, New 

Mexico ................................................................................................................... 154 

Western Union Financial Services, Inc., Greenwood Village, Colorado, statement ...................................................................................................................... 159 

(1) 

LAW ENFORCEMENT RESPONSES TO 

MEXICAN DRUG CARTELS 

TUESDAY, MARCH 17, 2009 

U.S. SENATE, SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND DRUGS, COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, AND SENATE CAUCUS ON INTERNATIONAL

NARCOTICS CONTROL, Washington, DC 

The Subcommittee and the Caucus met, pursuant to notice, at 

10:34 a.m., in room SD–226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. 

Richard J. Durbin, Chairman of the Subcommittee, and Hon. 

Dianne Feinstein, Chairman of the Caucus, presiding. 

Present: Senators Durbin, Feinstein, Feingold, Wyden, Klobuchar, Kaufman, Graham, Grassley, Specter, Sessions, and Kyl. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD J. DURBIN, A U.S. 

SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS 

Chairman DURBIN. This hearing will come to order. This is a 

joint hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee’s Crime and Drugs 

Subcommittee and the Senate International Narcotics Control Caucus that is chaired by Senator Feinstein. I am happy to be joined 

by my Ranking Republican Member here, Senator Lindsey Graham. It is my understanding that Senator Grassley serves as the 

Ranking Member—or Co-Chairman of the International Narcotics 

Control Caucus. I do not know that we have ever held a joint hearing, but we have common interest in today’s issue, which is ‘‘Law 

Enforcement Responses to Mexican Drug Cartels.’’ 

Since it is the first hearing, I want to thank Senator Pat Leahy 

for giving me the opportunity to chair this Subcommittee. Vice 

President Joe Biden held this gavel for many years. His former 

staffer and now successor, Senator Ted Kaufman, is here today. He 

has been invaluable in giving us tips and pointers on what we can 

do to make this Crime and Drugs Subcommittee an effective voice 

in the Congress. 

I also want to say that when Senator Graham and I first discussed the agenda for this Congress, we quickly agreed that the 

problem of Mexican drug cartels would be a top priority. 

Over 6,200 people died in drug-related violence in Mexico last 

year. More than 1,000 people were killed in the month of January 

this year alone, including police officers, judges, prosecutors, soldiers, journalists, politicians, and innocent bystanders. 

Today, we are going to hear firsthand testimony from two Mexican witnesses about the devastating human consequences of this 

2 

violence. One of these witnesses was forced to flee his hometown 

of Ciudad Jua ́ rez, a city of 1.5 million where public assassinations 

are carried out in broad daylight and more than 1,600 people were 

killed in drug-related violence in the year 2008. Last month, the 

city’s chief of police resigned after drug cartels threatened to kill 

a policeman every day if he remained on the job. And just this 

weekend, nine bodies were found in a common grave outside 

Jua ́ rez. 

Mexican drug cartels also pose a direct threat to Americans. According to a recent Justice Department report, Mexican drug cartels ‘‘control most of the U.S. drug market’’ and are ‘‘the greatest 

organized crime threat to the United States.’’ In Phoenix, Arizona, 

last year, 366 kidnappings for ransom were reported—more than in 

any other American city—and the vast majority of them were related to the Mexican drug trade. 

But Mexican drug cartels are not just a threat to border States. 

They are now present in at least 230 United States cities, up from 

50 cities in the year 2006. In my home State of Illinois, the Justice 

Department found that three Mexican drug cartels—Federation, 

Gulf Coast, and Jua ́ rez—are active in the cities of Chicago, in my 

home town of East St. Louis, and Joliet. According to the Drug Enforcement Administration, Mexican drug cartels supply most of the 

cocaine, methamphetamine, and marijuana distributed in the Chicago area. Just last fall, the Justice Department arrested 11 alleged members of the Jua ́ rez cartel for distributing large quantities 

of cocaine and marijuana in Chicago. Law enforcement officials estimate that $10 to $24 million in drug proceeds are sent from Chicago to the Southwest border each month. 

What are the root causes of this crisis? As we will hear from our 

Mexican witnesses, corruption may be the largest obstacle Mexico 

faces in its efforts to contain drug trafficking. For example, in November, Noe ́ Ramı ́rez, Mexico’s former drug czar, was arrested on 

charges of taking hundreds of thousands of dollars in bribes to pass 

information to the cartels. 

Mexico also lacks the fair and effective criminal justice system 

needed to combat the drug cartels. Mexican President Felipe 

Caldero ́n deployed the military into regions of Mexico where law 

enforcement was no longer able to maintain order, but that is not 

a long-term fix. Investigating and prosecuting drug- and gun-trafficking networks is fundamentally a law enforcement challenge 

that will require sustained cooperation across the border and at the 

Federal, State and local level. 

Mexico and America are in this together, and there is enough 

blame to go around. President Caldero ́n said last week that Mexico’s drug cartel problem is exacerbated by being located next to 

‘‘the biggest consumer of drugs and the largest supplier of weapons 

in the world.’’ That would be the United States of America. 

As this chart demonstrates, and as President Obama said last 

week, ‘‘The drugs are coming north, and we are sending money and 

guns south. As a consequence, these cartels have gained extraordinary power.’’ 

The insatiable demand for illegal drugs in the United States 

keeps the Mexican drug cartels in business. Mexican Government 

officials estimate that approximately $10 billion in drug proceeds 

3 

cross from the United States into Mexico each year in the form of 

bulk cash. This allows traffickers to expand their operations further into our country, pay off police and politicians, and buy more 

guns and weapons from the United States. 

The so-called ‘‘iron river of guns’’ from the United States arms 

Mexican drug cartels to the teeth. The cartels purchase weapons at 

gun shows from unlicensed sellers who are not required to conduct 

background checks. Or the cartels use ‘‘straw buyers’’ with clean 

criminal records to buy guns they need to maintain the arsenals for 

their drug cartels in Mexico. According to ATF, more than 90 percent of the guns seized after raids or shootings in Mexico have been 

traced right here to the United States of America. 

What can be done to defeat these drug cartels? They are the new 

face of crime in the age of globalization. The only effective response 

to this transnational phenomenon is multilateral action with our 

allies. As President Obama said in his recent address to Congress, 

‘‘America cannot meet the threats of this century alone.’’ 

I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about what Congress can do to contribute to cooperative efforts by the United 

States and Mexican law enforcement to defeat the drug cartels. In 

particular, we have to take action to reduce the demand for illegal 

drugs in our country and stem the flow of guns and money into 

Mexico. 

Let us take one example: ATF’s eTrace system for tracing crime 

guns. A decade ago, I started calling for 100-percent crime gun 

tracing in my home State of Illinois to provide basic information to 

find out where these guns were coming from. Today, data collected 

through eTrace has allowed law enforcement to identify numerous 

gun-trafficking routes supplying criminals. We need to do more. 

Even in my State, with this concerted effort, we have not reached 

the level of effective cooperation that we should have. Would it help 

to expand ATF’s eTrace system in Mexico and Central America? 

That is a question we will ask. 

One final note: The subjects of guns and drugs often split us 

along partisan lines. When it comes to Mexican drug cartels, there 

is too much at stake to allow us to be divided. Democrats and Republicans need to work together to find bipartisan, common-sense 

solutions to this challenge. 

I am now going to recognize Senator Graham, followed by Senator Feinstein and Senator Grassley. And I would like to ask Senator Graham as Ranking Member of the Subcommittee for his 

opening statement. 

STATEMENT OF HON. LINDSEY GRAHAM, A U.S. SENATOR 

FROM THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA 

Senator GRAHAM. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As you indicated, 

we discussed this Subcommittee’s role in the Congress, and, quite 

frankly, I was very encouraged and excited after our meeting that 

we can contribute to what I think is an important dialog when it 

comes to the war on our Southern border. And like any other war, 

it is a war of wills. If we have the will to combat the enemy forces 

here who happen to be drug cartels, we will win because our agenda for our Nation and Mexico and President Caldero ́n’s agenda for 

his country is much more positive. You have just got to enlist the 

4 

people and give them confidence to take sides and get into the 

fight. 

In terms of the American Government’s response, we have sent 

hundreds of millions of dollars, more to follow. These are tough economic times back here at home and throughout the world. But I 

cannot think of a better investment to make than to support our 

Mexican colleagues who are in the fight of their life, and, quite 

frankly, the fight of our lives. So when it comes to taxpayers’ dollars being spent to help the Mexican army and police force, I think 

it is a wise investment in these economic down times that we live 

in here at home. But the world continues to move forward, and I 

look forward to working with Senator Durbin, who has a lot of expertise in this area, to get a comprehensive approach to partner 

with our Mexican allies and partners to make sure that we can win 

a war where you get nothing for finishing second. 

This is a war. You either win it or you lose it. And drug consumption is a problem. The guns are a problem. But at the end of 

the day, I do believe that we have more fire power than they do 

in light of the weaponry that both governments possess. I believe 

that our view of the future is better than theirs. And terrorism is 

a tough thing to combat, but when you can enlist the average person to jump into the fight and get on your side, and honest cops 

and honest prosecutors, then I think we will be well on our way 

to winning this. 

Mr. Chairman, thank you for picking this topic as our first hearing. I do not think you could have chosen better, and I look forward 

to working with you on this problem and many others. 

Chairman DURBIN. Thanks, Senator Graham. 

Senator Feinstein. 

STATEMENT OF HON. DIANNE FEINSTEIN, A U.S. SENATOR 

FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I 

think you have stated the problem as well as it can be stated, and 

I do not want to repeat your words. 

I do want to say that we need to take some steps, and I am delighted to have the witnesses before us that are here today. I am 

delighted that Senator Grassley is here. We intend to reactivate 

the Caucus on International Narcotics Control. I have asked 

Christy McCampbell, whom I think many of you probably know— 

she formerly headed the Bureau of Narcotic Enforcement for the 

State of California, worked at Homeland Security, the State Department, is now in Islamabad working for the United Nations on 

drugs. And she will be here in a couple of weeks, and so I am looking forward to interacting much more with the law enforcement 

community through Ms. McCampbell. 

I received a letter, after a discussion with the Mexican ambassador, and that letter I have distributed to the Committee. It is 

dated February 4th. I have never seen deeper concern on an ambassador’s face than in the discussions I had with him. He pointed 

out how this Mexican President has really put it all on the line to 

move to deal with these cartels, how vicious these cartels are. And 

he indicated to me that, within a matter of days after we talked, 

5 

the Mexican Government was sending 5,000 troops into Ciudad 

Jua ́ rez. And I gather it is making a difference. 

He says in his letter, and I would like to quote: ‘‘In the face of 

this problem, there is much that the U.S. Government in general 

and the U.S. Congress in particular can do to help Mexico roll back 

drug syndicates. For example, enforcing existent legislation, such 

as the Arms Export Control Act, would effectively criminalize the 

sale of weapons to individuals whose intent is to export those firearms to countries such as Mexico, where they are deemed illegal.’’ 

And it is my understanding that we need to fine-tune this to give 

DEA or ATF the real authority to go do something, because these 

people who go to the Phoenix drug establishments have plausible 

deniability and can buy the weapon and send it to Mexico, and 

there is very little that our enforcement agency can do about it. 

That is what I am told. 

He goes on to say, ‘‘Furthermore, a return to the import ban on 

assault weapons in accordance with the 1968 Gun Control Act 

would prohibit the importation of assault weapons not used for 

sporting purposes.’’ 

As you will recall, President Clinton in an Executive order essentially implemented that. The Bush administration did not. I have 

a strong belief that the Obama administration should reinstitute it. 

He then goes on to say, ‘‘The reintroduction and passage of a bill 

to regulate .50-caliber firearms under the National Firearms Act, 

such as the one I have sponsored during the last legislature, would 

go a long way in helping to reduce the number of assault weapons 

flowing into Mexico.’’ 

I am appalled that you can buy a .50-caliber sniper weapon anywhere, not only—it is not restricted to a Federal firearms dealer. 

You can just buy it. And this is a weapon that will send a 5-inch 

bullet a great distance and permeate barrier walls. So I do not 

quite understand why we should not have some real regulations 

concerning its sale. 

He goes on to say, ‘‘Beyond the enforcement of existing legislation and the enactment of new provisions, three main agencies that 

have authority over the issue—the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and 

Firearms, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and Customs 

and Border Protection—are all in dire need of the resources that 

would enhance their interdiction and intelligence capabilities, and 

enable them to interdict southbound weapons on the United States 

side of our common border, and to investigate, determine, and detain individuals that are building weapons from gun shows and 

FFL dealers so as to introduce them illegally into Mexico.’’ 

Now, this is the Mexican ambassador to the United States, and 

I would be most interested in hearing from our enforcement agencies specifically what they can do in this emergency. If, in fact, they 

are shorthanded, what is it they need? If they need changes in law, 

what do they need? It is unacceptable to have 90 percent of the 

guns that are picked up in Mexico used to shoot judges, police officers, mayors, kidnap innocent people, and do terrible things come 

from the United States. And I think we must put a stop to that. 

So I would be very interested in hearing your comments, and I 

thank you for your leadership, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman DURBIN. Thanks, Senator Feinstein. 

6 

Senator Grassley. 

STATEMENT OF HON. CHUCK GRASSLEY, A U.S. SENATOR 

FROM THE STATE OF IOWA 

Senator GRASSLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for 

holding this hearing. Senator Feinstein has projected very forceful 

and energetic work for our Caucus. I intend to fully cooperate with 

that. I thank her for that effort and upcoming whatever it is. 

Also, for the witnesses, I will be in and out because down the 

hall I am Ranking Member in the Finance Committee, and we have 

a hearing going on there. 

I want to also recognize, as a couple of my colleagues have, the 

efforts of the President of Mexico. I suppose we can always say 

more can be done, and I am sure this hearing will say that. But, 

also, I think we need to say thank you for what he is doing, because it seems to me that he is doing more than any other President of Mexico has. 

A root cause of this increasing violence is drug cartels, commonly 

referred to the in law enforcement community as ‘‘drug-trafficking 

organizations.’’ DTOs pollute our streets with drugs and have been 

waging an increasingly violent battle against each other, also with 

law enforcement, and many innocent victims are caught in the 

crossfire. Today’s hearing is to see what our law enforcement agencies are doing to put a stop to the violence. 

Since 9/11, the Federal Government has stepped up border security at all of our ports of entry. This increased scrutiny has reduced 

available smuggling routes and has placed pressure on DTOs that 

rely on them to bring illegal narcotics, money, and weapons over 

our border. As a result, the available smuggling routes have become increasingly valuable, and the level of violence has escalated 

as DTOs compete for a limited number of available avenues. 

Despite recent progress, the profits available from DTOs that operate the drug trade continue to rise and fuel conflict. For example, 

Forbes announced last week that a Mexican druglord who heads 

the powerful Sinaloa cartel was ranked in an annual list of wealthy 

individuals with an estimated fortune of over $1 billion. 

I do not believe that any one problem is the root cause of security 

problems throughout the Southwest. What we need is an effective, 

comprehensive strategy that addresses each of the problems at the 

border, including drug smuggling, human trafficking, illegal immigration, bulk cash smuggling and money laundering, as well as gun 

smuggling. 

However, to fully eradicate border violence, we cannot act alone. 

Mexico must change its internal political and legal framework to 

make its corruption improve. Only when we focus on all these 

issues in concert will we begin to address the problem of border violence. 

There are a number of areas that I am interested in: First, looking at law enforcement in this panel about their efforts to coordinate operations, particularly how these agencies coordinate overlapping jurisdictions and collaborate to enforce our drug, gun, and 

money-laundering laws. For instance, under Title 18, Congress provided for enforcement by many different partners. Congress cannot 

legislate all the necessary details, so we have memorandums of unVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:42 Jul 06, 2010 Jkt 056913 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\56913.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC
7 

derstanding filling in those blanks. These MOUs cover virtually all 

issues along the border, including narcotics investigation, money 

laundering, weapons smuggling. Unfortunately, many of these 

MOUs are significantly outdated. I have been asking both Homeland Security and Justice to update these MOUs for the last couple 

of years. Secretary Chertoff responded that at least one MOU 

needs to be updated. I have also raised the issue with Attorney 

General Holder and Secretary Napolitano. 

Second, I am interested in discussing efforts to cut down on 

criminal money laundering. I am not going to go into detail on 

that. I will put that in the record. 

Finally, I am interested in hearing about efforts underway at 

ATF and ICE to combat illicit arms smuggling into Mexico. I want 

to ask about the status of Project Gunrunner, Armas Cruzadas, 

and the resources dedicated to combating illicit arms trade at our 

borders. I think that any effort on our part must focus on interdiction of illegal weapons as well as tracing weapons used in crimes 

in Mexico. I want to make sure first and foremost that we are 

doing everything within our power to enforce the existing laws on 

the books. However, stopping the flow of illegal weapons is not only 

an American problem. Our partners in Mexico also need to step up 

their efforts and build upon recent initiatives to interdict contraband coming into Mexico. As I said, we cannot act alone. 

I would like to have my entire statement put in the record. 

Chairman DURBIN. Without objection, the statement will be 

made part of the record. 

[The prepared statement of Senator Grassley appears as a submission for the record.] 

Chairman DURBIN. I thank Senators Feingold and Kaufman for 

waiving their right to opening statements in the interest of moving 

the hearing along. 

We are going to turn to our first panel of witnesses for their 

opening statements. They will be speaking, each of them, for 5 

minutes. Their written statements have been submitted in advance. We have had a chance to review them, and they will be a 

part of the permanent record of this Committee. 

At this point, I am going to swear in the witnesses, which is the 

custom of the Committee, if they would please stand. Raise your 

right hand. Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give 

will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 

help you God? 

Mr. GODDARD. I do. 

Mr. HOOVER. I do. 

Mr. PLACIDO. I do. 

Mr. KIBBLE. I do. 

Chairman DURBIN. Thank you. Let the record reflect that the 

witnesses have answered in the affirmative. 

Our first witness is Terry Goddard, a consensus witness from 

both Democrats and Republicans. It is a reflection of the respect 

that we have for the job that you are doing as Attorney General 

in the State of Arizona. Your background includes many areas of 

public service, including one of most challenging—being the mayor 

of a big city. And you did it for a number of years, having been 

elected mayor of the city of Phoenix four times. 

8 

Since becoming the State’s top law enforcement official in 2003, 

Mr. Goddard has, among other priorities, focused on taking action 

against illegal trafficking in drugs, arms, money, and human 

beings. He served as Arizona Director for the U.S. Department of 

Housing and Urban Development and, as I said, mayor of Phoenix. 

He holds a law degree from Arizona State University. 

Thanks for coming from Phoenix to be here today, Attorney General. The floor is yours. 

STATEMENT OF TERRY GODDARD, ATTORNEY GENERAL, 

STATE OF ARIZONA, PHOENIX, ARIZONA 

Mr. GODDARD. Thank you, Chairman Durbin, Chairwoman Feinstein, Ranking Member Graham, Ranking Member Grassley, distinguished members of the Crime and Drugs Subcommittee and the 

Caucus on International Narcotics Control. It is a pleasure and an 

honor to be here and to try to help you address an issue of critical 

importance to our State, the State of Arizona, and to the Nation. 

The comments that have already been made do better than I could 

to put this incredible issue into focus, and so I will omit some of 

the comments I was going to make in terms of setting the stage, 

Mr. Chairman. But I do hope that some of our specific experiences 

in the State of Arizona combating the organized criminal cartels 

that members of this Committee have already referred to can be 

helpful to your deliberations. 

The threat posted to American citizens and communities by the 

Mexican-based drug-trafficking organizations cannot be underestimated. It has been referred to frequently, and I think accurately, 

as ‘‘the organized criminal threat of the 21st century.’’ 

Law enforcement in the State of Arizona has been on the front 

lines for many years—I think sometimes we feel virtually alone— 

in taking on these vicious and very well organized criminals. 

As has been mentioned, the violence in Mexico is the result of 

drug cartels fighting against law enforcement, the Mexican Army, 

and each other; and it has reached unprecedented body counts of 

unprecedented proportions, which you have already referred to. I 

would add, however, that the bloodshed has included, as Senator 

Feinstein noted, an appalling spike in assassinations of police officers, prosecutors, and government officials. It is not just cartel-oncartel violence that we are talking about here. And it is not just 

a Mexican problem, and I think that has already been made clear 

by members of this Committee. But what we see, although most of 

the body count has been in Mexico, we have violent activities in the 

State of Arizona and moving north of the border that certainly 

should be a cause for alarm. 

The high profit in the trade in drugs, arms, and human beings— 

I would add one thing, Mr. Chairman, to the chart that you just 

showed. It is really a four-part trade, and it has caused crime 

throughout the United States. In the Southwest border region, we 

feel especially impacted. Arizona has become the gateway for drugs 

and human being smuggling into the rest of the United States. 

Phoenix and Tucson have become gateway and destination locations for further distribution of both drugs and human beings, and 

as was noted, in the past few years the city of Phoenix, my city, 

has become known as the kidnapping capital of the United States. 

9 

Over 700 kidnappings in the last 2 years have afflicted that city, 

and police believe that well over twice that number may have gone 

unreported. So it is a very serious problem. 

Like all organized criminal activity, the cross-border crime between Mexico and Arizona is about money. I know that is no surprise to anyone here, but smuggling drugs and human beings depends upon moving vast sums of funds. Reference has been made 

to bulk cash transactions in the billions of dollars, but we also have 

been confronting in Arizona the electronic funds transfer, which is 

critical to the movement of human beings. And that I believe also 

should be added to this Committee’s agenda in terms of concern. 

The money laundering not only in bulk cash but in electronic funds 

transfer is extremely serious. 

We have found in Arizona that the most effective way to establish a virtual barrier against the criminal activities is to take the 

profit out of it, to find some way to take the money away from the 

cartels. 

The Arizona Attorney General’s Office has been aggressively 

intercepting what we now call ‘‘blood wires.’’ Those are the payments to human smugglers, or ‘‘coyotes,’’ as we know them, which 

is largely done by wire transfer. Between 2003 and 2007, my office 

seized more than $17 million in wire transfers destined to human 

smugglers and in the process arrested well over 100 coyotes. 

Seizing the money has reduced the volume of suspect wire transfers into Arizona by hundreds of millions of dollars. But, not surprisingly, it has simply been displaced into money transfer locations in northern Mexico. My office then targeted 26 wire transfer 

locations in Mexico, and a legal battle ensued, which hopefully will 

be over in the next few months. 

Western Union, by far the largest provider of electronic funds 

transfer services, and other wire transmitters could be providing 

valuable information about illegal money transmissions and help 

us put the illegal transmitters out of business. But instead of cooperation, Western Union has made every effort to prevent data 

disclosure and identification of criminal activity which we could be 

able to make from that disclosure. 

In addition to the blood wire seizures, Arizona law enforcement 

has had other spectacular successes. In the past year, my office, together with Federal and local officials—a critical partnership—has 

broken up a major arms-trafficking operation; a coyote organization 

that smuggled over 10,000 persons a year across the border; another similar organization which transported over 8,000 people 

around the United States—not across the border but across the 

country; a drug-smuggling enterprise that in the last 4 years 

brought 2 million pounds of marijuana into the United States with 

a wholesale value of over $1 billion. 

Our experience in Arizona shows that we need a region-wide, binational effort to stop the sophisticated, well-organized criminals 

smuggling drugs, people, guns, and money across our Southern border. Otherwise, these criminals will easily displace their activity 

into another area with less surveillance. 

No single law enforcement agency—Federal, State, or local—acting alone has the manpower, jurisdiction, or expertise to prevail 

against these highly organized and sophisticated criminals. CoVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:42 Jul 06, 2010 Jkt 056913 PO 00000 Frm 00013 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\56913.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC
10 

operation and intelligence sharing are necessary within our country 

and across the border. 

We also have to identify and take down the whole criminal organization. That is what my office has tried to do in the prosecutions 

that I referred to. Just arresting and deporting foot soldiers is a 

waste of critical assets. 

Finally, I think we can cooperate much better with law enforcement in Mexico. For far too long, organized criminals have been 

able to use the border as a refuge, as a shelter. One important tool 

is a section of the Mexican penal code called Article 4. Under Article 4, as you probably are aware, Mexican authorities may prosecute a crime committed in the United States as if it had been committed in Mexico. My office has done a number of these prosecutions where, if the suspect is convicted, they will then be incarcerated in Mexico. The punishment would be carried out there. 

Last year, we entered into a new effort to use Article 4 not just 

for arrest and trial of identified suspects, but for the joint investigation where the identity of the perpetrator is not known. One 

such investigation is underway right now into a cold-blooded killing 

in a drop house of someone named Javier by one of the smugglers, 

one of the coyotes. We are not yet in a position to proclaim success, 

but we have been working together with Mexican authorities to try 

to find this murderer and to bring him to justice. And I am very 

hopeful that this will go a long way toward making the border 

transparent as to criminals who are trying to avoid apprehension. 

In our fight against the drug cartels, Congress can and should 

play a very significant role. First, you can support the leadership 

role already undertaken with the Merida Initiative, continue to appropriate funding to assist Mexican law enforcement efforts against 

the cartels. Treasury, Justice, and Homeland Security can use additional resources, I am sure, for their successful partnerships with 

State and local law enforcement. 

HIDTA, the High-Intensity Drug-Trafficking Area, could expand 

and I think should expand its scope to include human smuggling 

and weapons trafficking, along with drug trafficking, in its mission. 

We also need a region-wide, bi-national coordinated attack on corrupt money transmitters. We estimated on both sides of the border 

there may be as many as 400 operations that, in fact, are breaking 

the money-laundering laws, but they are not being apprehended. In 

that effort, we need additional tools, coordinated regulation of 

money transmitters on both sides of the border, region-wide data 

on electronic transfers to identify potentially criminal transmitters, 

and trace all money going to them—something that our office has 

tried to do, but we are right now prohibited or prevented from getting that information from Western Union. 

And we should lower the threshold for mandatory reporting of 

single action money transfers. Currently it is $10,000. I believe it 

could effectively be—we would be much more effective if it was lowered. And in this area, stored value cards and devices are already 

being used to avoid our money-laundering laws. It is a huge loophole in our anti-money-laundering efforts, and I believe we can expand the definition of ‘‘monetary instruments’’ subject to reporting 

to include prepaid stored value cards. At the very least, all stored 

value cards should be required to be readable by law enforcement 

11 

agents. Right now, they cannot decipher them. If they impound a 

card during a stop, they do not know how much it is worth. 

Violence in Mexico will not be contained unless and until Mexican drug cartels are dismantled. It is in the interest of the United 

States to not only assist Mexico in this effort, but to step up our 

own activities to dismantle the criminal organizations operating 

across our border. The best way to do that is to cutoff their illegal 

supply of funds. 

In Arizona, we are working hard to disrupt the flow of criminal 

proceeds to the cartels. We are coordinating at every level of law 

enforcement and reaching across the border, but we cannot do this 

alone. We face an urgent public safety challenge, and we need Federal cooperation, coordination, and resources if we are to prevail. 

Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Goddard appears as a submission for the record.] 

Chairman DURBIN. Thank you very much, Mr. Goddard. 

Our next witness, William Hoover, is here to represent the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. He is Assistant Director of Field Operations. In that capacity, he oversees their operations on our Southwest border. He 

has held many positions before, including Special Agent in Charge 

of the Washington Field Division. 

Thanks for joining us, and the floor is yours for a 5-minute statement. Your written statement will be made part of the record. 

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM HOOVER, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FOR 

FIELD OPERATIONS, BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES, AND ANTHONY P. PLACIDO, ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR AND CHIEF OF INTELLIGENCE, DRUG 

ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF 

JUSTICE, WASHINGTON, D.C. 

Mr. HOOVER. Thank you, sir. Chairman Durbin, Senator Graham, and distinguished members of the Subcommittee, I am honored to appear before you today to discuss ATF’s ongoing role in 

preventing firearms from being illegally trafficked from the U.S. 

into Mexico and work to reduce the associated violence along the 

border. I also want to thank you for your support of Project Gunrunner that you have recently shown. 

For over 30 years, ATF has been protecting our citizens and communities from violent criminals and criminal organizations by safeguarding them from the illegal use of firearms and explosives. We 

are responsible for both regulating the firearms and explosives industries and enforcing the criminal laws relating to those commodities. ATF has the expertise, experience, tools, and commitment to 

investigate and disrupt groups and individuals who obtain guns in 

the U.S. and illegally traffic them into Mexico in facilitation of the 

drug trade. 

The combination of ATF’s crime-fighting experience, regulatory 

authority, analytical capability, and the strategic partnerships is 

used to combat firearms trafficking both along the U.S. borders and 

throughout the Nation. For instance, from fiscal year 2007 through 

2008, Project Gunrunner—ATF’s strategy for disrupting the flow of 

firearms to Mexico—has initiated 1,840 investigations. Those cases 

12 

include 382 firearms-trafficking cases involving 1,035 defendants 

and an estimated 12,835 firearms. 

For an example, an 11-month investigation into a Phoenix area 

gun dealer revealed a trafficking scheme involving at least 650 firearms, including 250 AK–47s semiautomatic rifles that were trafficked to Mexican drug cartels. One of the pistols was recovered on 

the person of an alleged cartel boss. The investigation that is currently under prosecution resulted in the May 2008 arrest of three 

defendants and the seizure of 1,300 guns. 

While the greatest proportion of firearms trafficked to Mexico 

originate out of the United States along the Southwest border, ATF 

trace data has established that drug traffickers are also acquiring 

firearms from other States as far east as Florida and as far north 

and west as Washington State. A case from April 2008 involving 

a violent shootout that resulted in 13 deaths will illustrate that 

point. ATF assisted Mexican authorities in tracing 60 firearms recovered at a crime scene in Tijuana. As a result, leads have been 

forwarded to ATF field divisions in Denver, Houston, Los Angeles, 

Philadelphia, Phoenix, San Francisco, and Seattle to interview the 

first known purchasers of those firearms. These investigations are 

continuing. 

Additionally, drug traffickers are known to supplement their firearm caches with explosives. Our expertise with explosives has 

proven to be another valuable tool to use in the fight against these 

drug cartels. In fact, in the past 6 months, we have noted a troubling increase in the number of grenades seized from or used by 

drug traffickers. We are concerned about the possibility of explosives-related violence impacting our U.S. border towns. 

We have had at least one such incident in San Juan, Texas, 

when a hand grenade was thrown into a crowd of about 20 patrons. 

ATF was able to identify the grenade and believes it is linked to 

a drug cartel. Moreover, we believe these devices were from the 

same source as those used during an attack on our U.S. consulate 

in Monterrey, Mexico. 

ATF’s Project Gunrunner includes approximately 148 special 

agents dedicated to investigating firearms trafficking on a full-time 

basis and 59 industry operations investigators responsible for conducting regulatory inspections of federally licensed gun dealers, 

known as ‘‘Federal firearms licensees.’’ As the sole agency that regulates FFLs—roughly 6,700 of which are along the Southwest border—ATF has the statutory authority to inspect and examine the 

records and inventory of the licensees for firearms-trafficking 

trends and patterns, and also to revoke the licenses of those who 

are complicit in firearms trafficking. 

For instance, ATF used its regulatory authority to review the 

records of an FFL in El Paso, Texas, to identify firearms traffickers 

who purchased 75 firearms that were sold to corrupt local and Federal officials. Our investigation led to the arrest of 12 individuals 

in November, and the sentences ranged from 36 months to 2 years. 

An essential component of ATF’s strategy to curtail firearms trafficking to Mexico is the tracing of firearms seized in both countries. 

Using this information, ATF can establish the identity of the first 

retail purchaser of the firearm and possibly learn pertinent information, such as how the gun came to be used in the facilitation of 

13 

a crime or how it came to be located in Mexico. Furthermore, analysis of the trace aggregate data can reveal drug-trafficking trends 

and networks, showing where the guns are purchased, who is purchasing them, and how they flow across the border. I would like to 

note an example of how trace data was used to identify a firearms 

trafficker. 

ATF’s analysis of trace data linked a man living in a city along 

the border to three crime guns recovered at three different crime 

scenes in Mexico. Further investigation of that information uncovered that he was the purchaser of a fourth firearm recovered at yet 

another crime scene in Mexico, and that he had purchased 111 AR– 

15 type receivers and seven additional firearms within a short time 

span using nine different FFL wholesale distributors as sources for 

his guns. 

In April 2008, we seized 80 firearms from the suspect and 

learned that he was actually manufacturing guns in his residence. 

He sold over 100 guns alone to an individual who is suspected of 

being linked to a cartel. Investigation leads are being pursued, and 

charges are pending in that investigation. 

Chairman Durbin, Senator Graham, distinguished members of 

the Subcommittee, on behalf of the men and women of ATF, again 

I want to thank you for your support of our crucial work. With the 

backing of this Subcommittee, ATF can continue to build on our accomplishments, making our Nation more secure. 

Thank you. 

Chairman DURBIN. Thank you, Mr. Hoover. 

The next witness is Anthony Placido. He is here on behalf of the 

Justice Department’s Drug Enforcement Administration. He is the 

Assistant Administrator and Chief of Intelligence, responsible for 

developing the agency’s global intelligence collection enterprise. He 

previously served as Special Agent in Charge of the New York 

Field Division and Regional Director of the Mexico-Central America 

Division, and has 30 years of Federal law enforcement experience. 

Thank you for joining us. Please proceed. 

Mr. PLACIDO. Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee, thank 

you very much for the opportunity to appear before you today and 

to discuss this issue of importance to the Nation. 

If I may thank you for the kind introduction and elaborate just 

one item further that may be relevant to this Committee, I also 

serve as the Co-Chair of a group called the Anti-Drug Intelligence 

Community Team, or ADICT. It is an organization of 13 U.S. Government agencies with counter-drug intelligence responsibilities, 

and that group has been very heavily focused on this issue for 

quite some time. 

My testimony today does not represent my personal perspectives 

alone but represents, rather, the collective judgment of DEA staff 

located in 11 offices throughout the Republic of Mexico, as well as 

those of DEA agents and employees posted in 227 domestic and 123 

foreign offices around the globe. On behalf of the Acting Administrator, Michele Leonhart, and the nearly 10,000 men and women 

of DEA, I am honored to have the opportunity to share these perspectives with you today. 

Almost immediately following his inauguration as the President 

of Mexico, Felipe Caldero ́n, of his own volition, initiated a comVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:42 Jul 06, 2010 Jkt 056913 PO 00000 Frm 00017 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\56913.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC
14 

prehensive program to break the power and impunity of the drug 

cartels. As a consequence of that effort, there has been a sharp 

spike in murders and violence in Mexico. It has caused some, including Homeland Security Magazine, to speculate about the likelihood of Mexico failing in its effort and for our purposes, and by extension, created a discussion about whether the violence would spill 

over our Southwest border at increased levels and with adverse 

consequences to U.S. interests. 

DEA believes that the remarkable commitment of President 

Caldero ́n has resulted in his government making important strides 

to reduce the immense power and corruptive influence of these 

well-entrenched drug cartels. We assess that the increased level of 

violence that currently plagues Mexico represents in large measure 

a desperate attempt by drug traffickers to resist the sustained efforts of a very determined Mexican administration. It is not the 

harbinger of imminent failure. 

Since the Caldero ́n administration assumed power, the Government of Mexico has made record seizures of drugs, clandestine laboratories, weapons, and cash. They have arrested large numbers of 

defendants, including high-level representatives of all of the major 

cartels and, in unprecedented fashion, have extradited more than 

178 of these defendants to face justice in the United States. 

They have also made advances in the more difficult process of reforming their institutions and have vetted and trained police, prosecutors, and jailers, established a new organized crime tribunal, 

and have addressed corruption as never before. 

We are also seeing benefits closer to home. Beginning in January 

of 2007, immediately after President Caldero ́n was installed, we 

began to see and have seen a 24-month sustained period of increased price and decreased purity in nearly every cocaine market 

in the United States. Over that 2-year period, the price has more 

than doubled, up 104 percent, and purity has fallen by almost 35 

percent. 

Mexican drug-trafficking organizations have been placed under 

unprecedented stress as a result of the sustained efforts by the 

Government of Mexico together with DEA, the U.S. Interagency, 

and our partners throughout the region. We are mindful, however, 

that the success against these powerful criminal adversaries is far 

from certain and that the consequences of these transnational 

criminals prevailing in their bloody contest with the Caldero ́n administration would pose devastating consequences to the safety and 

security of people on both sides of the border. 

Through the Merida Initiative and the funding generously provided by this Congress, our Mexican counterparts have additional 

resources to break the power and impunity of these cartels. However, we continue to hear accounts of the horrific violence in Mexico 

and must assess the potential for this activity to spill over our border. 

It is important to understand that violence has always been part 

of the Mexican drug trade and that criminal syndicates fight each 

other for control of a very lucrative market. DEA assesses that the 

current surge in violence is driven in large measure by the Government of Mexico’s offensive against these traffickers, who in turn 

15 

perceive themselves to be fighting for a larger share of a shrinking 

market. 

While the cartels are fighting each other and increasingly pushing back against the Government of Mexico in unprecedented fashion, neither DEA nor the U.S. Interagency assesses that in the 

near term the cartels will deliberately target U.S. Government personnel or interests or intentionally target U.S. civilians in the 

United States. Defining spillover is a tricky business, and in the interest of the brevity of my opening statement, I will defer to later 

a more robust discussion of that. But we recognize that we are witnessing acts of true desperation, the actions of wounded, vulnerable, and dangerous criminal organizations. DEA and the Interagency will continue to monitor this situation closely for warnings 

and indications of deliberate targeting of U.S. interests beyond the 

established modes of trafficker-on-trafficker or criminal-on-criminal 

violence. 

I would like to conclude briefly by highlighting just a few of the 

important initiatives DEA has undertaken in cooperation with the 

Government of Mexico, our interagency and international partners 

to address this problem. 

For 27 years, DEA has been running something called IDEC, the 

International Drug Enforcement Conference, that brings together 

currently more than 90 countries from around the world and their 

senior-most leadership on the counter-drug front. This year, that 

conference will be held in Mexico, and Mexico will take a leadership role, will also help to build strategies and coalitions among our 

partners to address this. 

For several years, we have facilitated a series of meetings, which 

we call the ‘‘tripartite meetings,’’ between Colombia, Mexico, and 

the U.S. Government. Those meetings are beginning to bear fruit, 

and we currently now have vetted representatives of both the Colombian and Mexican Government inside the walls of the El Paso 

Intelligence Center to help us build strategies and execute plans to 

protect our borders. 

DEA has also developed and, together with our Federal partners 

begun deployment of a system of license plate readers along the entire Southwest border that will focus on the identification of vehicles known or suspected to be transporting bulk currency or weapons into Mexico. Early results from this effort are promising, and 

we are hopeful that this tool will prove effective in reducing the 

southbound flow of cash and weapons into Mexico. 

Since DEA was created in 1973, the agency’s hallmark has been 

to target those who organize, direct, and finance transnational 

crime. Nearly two decades ago, DEA made significant advances in 

this regard when it created the multi-agency Special Operations 

Division to identify connections among and between seemingly disparate investigations between distinct elements of DEA, our interagency and international partners. This interagency coordination 

process has been essential in driving enforcement successes such as 

Project Reckoning, which targeted Mexico’s Gulf cartel, and Operation Accelerator, which targeted Mexico’s Sinaloa cartel. 

These DEA-led operations represent the most successful joint law 

enforcement efforts undertaken between the United States and the 

Government of Mexico and together resulted in over 1,350 arrests, 

16 

the seizure of thousands of pounds of methamphetamine, tens of 

thousands of pounds of marijuana, more than 20,000 kilograms of 

cocaine, hundreds of weapons, and $130 million in cash and assets. 

DEA is convinced that this interagency coordination and collaboration process is essential to the effectiveness of our Nation’s counterdrug effort. 

Finally, my colleague from Arizona mentioned the threat of 

money remittances, and the DEA Operation High Wire, through 

this Special Operations Division connected 89 distinct investigations targeting money remitters who are facilitating the illicit drug 

trafficking by moving the proceeds of U.S. drug sales back to Mexico. The operation netted in excess of $32 million in cash. 

We remain committed to working with both our domestic and 

international partners to target the command-and-control elements 

of these transnational drug-trafficking organizations, to stem the 

flow of bulk cash and weapons south into Mexico, while also working to sustain the disruption of drug transportation routes northward. 

Mr. Chairman, thank you for this opportunity to appear, and I 

will be glad to take questions at the appropriate time. 

[The prepared statement of Messrs. Hoover and Placido appears 

as a submission for the record.] 

Chairman DURBIN. Thank you, Mr. Placido. 

We will go slightly out of order here. Senator Kyl has asked for 

a moment to acknowledge one of our witnesses. 

Senator KYL. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really appreciate 

your indulgence. I had intended to be here a little bit earlier so I 

would not be as disruptive, and I will have to leave in just a moment, but I did want to put in a very good word for Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard and commend you for holding this 

hearing. You have got a very distinguished panel. I look forward 

to reading the testimony of all of the witnesses. I had hoped to pass 

on some other indications of the great work that Terry Goddard 

has been doing on this subject in Arizona. It is a very important 

subject, and I appreciate the Committee’s consideration of it. 

Thanks. 

Chairman DURBIN. Thank you very much, Senator Kyl. I might 

add that your colleague Senator McCain has also recommended Mr. 

Goddard’s testimony, so you come here with the highest recommendations. 

Our next witness, Kumar Kibble, is here to represent U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. He is Deputy Director of ICE’s 

Office of Investigations, serving as ICE’s Chief Operating Officer, 

and a graduate of West Point. 

Please proceed. You have 5 minutes to give oral testimony, and 

then we will ask some questions. 

STATEMENT OF KUMAR C. KIBBLE, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS, IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

Mr. KIBBLE. Chairman Durbin, Chairwoman Feinstein, Ranking 

Member Graham, Ranking Member Grassley, and distinguished 

members of the Subcommittee and Caucus, on behalf of Secretary 

17 

Napolitano and Acting Assistant Secretary Torres, I thank you for 

the opportunity to discuss ICE’s efforts to combat cross-border 

crime and related violence. ICE has the most expansive investigative authority and the largest force of investigators within DHS, 

but this challenge cannot be addressed by any one agency. Partnerships are essential, and ICE works closely with foreign, Federal, 

tribal, State, and local agencies to secure our borders, including the 

agencies that my colleagues here today represent. 

DHS recognizes that southbound weapons smuggling is a grave 

concern amid the growing violence along our border with Mexico. 

This violence requires a comprehensive, bilateral effort, and on 

January the 30th, Secretary Napolitano responded by issuing a 

Border Security Action Directive which focused the wide-ranging 

authorities of the Department on the violence along our Southern 

border. The Secretary emphasized the necessity of a broad, multiagency response to attack the flow of weapons and money that continues to fuel the violence. ICE contributes to this fight principally 

through two bilateral initiatives: Operation Firewall to counter 

bulk cash smuggling; as well as Operation Armas Cruzadas, to 

counter weapons smuggling. 

The ICE-led Border Enforcement Security Task Forces provide a 

comprehensive, multi-agency platform to fight these particular 

threats. Under Armas Cruzadas, U.S. and Mexican investigators 

synchronize bilateral law enforcement and intelligence-sharing activities in order to detect, disrupt, and dismantle these weaponssmuggling networks. Key supporting actions include: use of ICE’s 

longstanding authorities under the Arms Export Control Act, as 

well as newly acquired export authority that is particularly useful 

in targeting these weapons-smuggling networks. 

To more seamlessly investigate these networks that span our 

common border, BESTs, ICE attache offices, a U.S.-vetted Mexican 

Arms Trafficking Group, and the ICE Border Violence Intelligence 

Cell exchange weapons-related intelligence. For example, in August 

of last year, an ICE investigation developed information that was 

rapidly shared with Mexican investigators regarding a safe house 

in Nogales, Sonora, used by hit men from the Vicente Carillo 

Fuentes organization. A subsequent search warrant at the residence resulted in six arrests, the seizure of police uniforms, a large 

amount of U.S. currency, 12 weapons, and four stolen U.S. vehicles. 

Intelligence stemming from single actions like this are analyzed by 

the Border Violence Intelligence Cell, and in December of last year, 

this cell, in conjunction with other DHS intelligence components, 

produced a strategic assessment focused on southbound weapons 

smuggling that informed our current operations along the Southwest border. 

Let me share another example of how ICE partners with others, 

such as ATF and local investigators, in combating weapons smuggling. ICE, ATF, and the San Antonio Police Department initiated 

an investigation of Ernesto Olvera-Garza, a Mexican national that 

at the time of his arrest in October of 2007 trafficked in high-powered, high-capacity handguns and assault rifles. He led a gunsmuggling conspiracy that purchased and smuggled more than 50 

weapons into Mexico. One of these weapons was recovered after it 

was used in a gun battle where two Mexican soldiers were killed. 

18 

Olvera-Garza has pleaded guilty and is currently pending sentencing. 

Altogether, since the initiation of Armas Cruzadas, DHS has 

seized 420 weapons, more than 110,000 rounds of ammunition, and 

arrested more than 100 individuals on criminal charges. 

Another and one of the most effective methods in dealing with 

violent, transnational criminal organizations is to attack the criminal proceeds that fund their operations. As we have hardened formal financial systems throughout the United States, the smuggling 

of bulk currency out of the country has been on the rise. ICE investigates bulk cash smuggling as part of its cross-border crime portfolio. ICE and CBP have conducted Operation Firewall interdiction 

operations and investigations with Mexican Customs and an ICEtrained Mexican Money Laundering Vetted Unit. Since its inception, Firewall has resulted in the seizure of over $178 million, including over $62 million which has been seized overseas and has 

resulted in more than 400 arrests. 

As I mentioned before, the principal investigative platform for 

both Armas Cruzadas and Firewall are the eight multi-agency Border Enforcement Security Task Forces, or BESTs, arrayed along 

high-threat smuggling corridors along the Southwest border. Created to specifically address border violence, these BESTs concentrate on the top threats within their geographic areas, including 

weapons, bulk cash, narcotics, and alien smuggling. Since July of 

2005, the BESTs have been responsible for more than 2,000 criminal arrests, the seizure of about 170,000 pounds of narcotics, hundreds of weapons, and almost $23 million in U.S. currency. 

ICE is committed to stemming cross-border crime and associated 

violence through the deployment of the BESTs, Operation Armas 

Cruzadas, and Operation Firewall. Partnering with others, we are 

using a broad range of authorities, to disrupt and dismantle these 

networks. 

I thank the Subcommittee and Caucus members for your support 

and look forward to answering any questions you may have. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Kibble appears as a submission 

for the record.] 

Chairman DURBIN. Thank you, Mr. Kibble. 

I would like to start with questions, and first I would like to ask 

you about firearms. ICE’s program to address firearms smuggling 

has resulted in the seizure of 420 weapons and 42 convictions; 

ATF’s Project Gunrunner has resulted in 382 firearm-trafficking 

cases involving over a thousand defendants and approximately 

12,800 guns. 

On the face of it, it sounds significant and dramatic. We will 

have testimony later from Professor Dresser from Mexico who tells 

us that an estimated 2,000 weapons cross the border into Mexico 

from the United States every single day. If that is true—and I 

would welcome any comments that you might have to suggest that 

there is another number we should use as a starting point—are we 

even making a dent in the firearms smuggling from the United 

States to Mexico? Mr. Hoover? 

Mr. HOOVER. Firearms trafficking is a huge issue. There is no 

question about it. We currently work with the Mexican authorities 

19 

and have asked them through training and education to initiate 

traces on all the firearms seized or recovered by them. 

Chairman DURBIN. Can you give me a metric? I am looking for 

a metric. What do you think is the volume of weapons being smuggled into Mexico from the United States on a daily basis? 

Mr. HOOVER. I would not say it is in the thousands, sir. I would 

say it is probably in the hundreds. I would not say it is in the thousands. 

I can tell you that over the last 2 years, in 2007 we traced 6,561 

weapons from Mexico. In 2008, we traced 10,977 firearms from 

Mexico. And to date this year, we are already approaching that 

10,000 number for gun traces from Mexico. 

Chairman DURBIN. This is clearly going to be an object of dispute. The Brookings Institution, and I quote, says ‘‘some 2,000 

guns cross the U.S.-Mexico border from north to south every day, 

helping to fuel violence among drug cartels.’’ 

I think we would agree that whether it is hundreds or thousands, 

the best efforts that we put in to date are really not addressing the 

volume of the problem when it comes to weapons smuggling. We 

have to look to additional ways to fortify our efforts and make 

them more effective. 

I only have a few minutes, and I wanted to allow Attorney General Goddard to address one of the more fundamental issues here. 

At the base of this whole equation, this bloody, deadly equation, between the United States and Mexico is our virtually insatiable appetite for narcotics. You have been caught in the cross-fire of this 

for so many years as the leading law officer in Arizona. What are 

your thoughts about America’s drug policies and drug laws? 

Mr. GODDARD. Thank you, Chairman Durbin. My thoughts are 

that we are not winning the battle. The violence that we see in 

Mexico is fueled 65 to 70 percent by the trade in one drug—marijuana. The interdictions that we have had and that the partnership 

that you see here at the table have seized extraordinary quantities 

of marijuana. And, still, the United States is being literally flooded 

with this particular drug. 

I have called for at least a rational discussion as to what our 

country can do to take the profit out of that one particular main 

horse, main force that fuels these violent cartels in Mexico. 

I also think, as the Wilson Institute has said, that we need to 

take a hard look at basically treatment on the addiction side. The 

United States has put a great deal of money into interdiction, but 

we have put very little into demand reduction. And, frankly, we 

can have a very profound effect as a country in trying to stop the 

apparently insatiable demand for these illegal drugs. 

We have one bright spot, and I think it needs to be commented 

upon. The flow of methamphetamines is down. That was, by consensus of law enforcement throughout the country, the No. 1 crime 

problem in the United States. Among other things, the Mexican 

Government has taken very strong efforts to stop the precursor 

chemicals coming into their country and going to the so-called 

super labs in Mexico. They have also closed down a number of the 

super labs. So as a result, the flow of crystal methamphetamines 

into the United States is reduced. 

20 

Now, we are not at the end of the story, obviously, but between 

the interdiction efforts at the border and the very strong effort on 

the production side by the Government of Mexico, we made a huge 

amount of progress. And I think that bright spot needs to be highlighted, because everything else we hear is extremely depressing. 

Chairman DURBIN. My time is up, but I am going to try to ask 

everyone to hold to 5 minutes, but just to say that we are going 

to have future hearings related to America’s policies when it comes 

to the arrest, criminal treatment, and medical treatment of those 

suffering from drug addictions. We have to really look at the source 

of this problem. It is our insatiable drug appetite, some 35 million 

users in the United States, that has created this problem and provides the money that is fueling these drug cartels and this violence. 

Thank you. 

Senator Graham? 

Senator GRAHAM. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Placido, from an intelligence point of view, do you believe 

that the efforts of President Caldero ́n are winning the day, or are 

we losing ground? How would you characterize the war? 

Mr. PLACIDO. Thank you for that question, sir. I have been closely following Mexico since about 1985, and what I can tell you, in 

my view, the commitment and resolve of the Mexican Government 

is unprecedented under this administration. They are making great 

strides to improve the situation. 

It is a very difficult situation, and it will not be resolved overnight. Decades of problems related to corruption and the power and 

impunity of these cartels cannot be resolved overnight. But I believe this Government is making progress and that the violence we 

see is actually a signpost of success that these cartels are actually 

under a level of pressure that they have never seen before. It is one 

of the reasons they are lashing out against each other and the government. 

Senator GRAHAM. In the area of pressure, Mr. Kibble and Mr. 

Hoover, how would your rate the level of corruption now versus 

last year in terms of pressure being applied to corrupt officials in 

Mexico? Mr. Hoover? 

Mr. HOOVER. Sir, we have had several investigations involving 

law enforcement officers on both sides of the border involved in the 

firearms trafficking. But we have certainly—they have been limited. I believe I mentioned that in my statement. They have been 

limited in that area. And we have not seen a significant increase 

in law enforcement officers being involved in the firearms trafficking. 

Senator GRAHAM. Mr. Kibble. 

Mr. KIBBLE. I basically concur with Mr. Hoover, Ranking Member Graham. We have not noticed any trends going up or down. 

There is generally a steady state of corruption issues that we tend 

to see during the course of our investigations, and in my recent discussions with our special agents in charge along the Southwest border as recently as last week, they had indicated that they had not 

seen any trends worthy of note in terms of that. 

Senator GRAHAM. OK. What is the single most—the drug consumption problem that Senator Durbin indicated is a problem, and 

that will not be solved overnight on our side of the border. But in 

21 

the short term, what is the most single effective thing that Congress could do, in my opinion, to aid the Mexican Government in 

their fight? We will start with you, Mr. Kibble, and work our way 

down. 

Mr. KIBBLE. I think the critical—it is the recognition that we see 

increasingly throughout the country that part of what fuels this violence in Mexico are the flows of weapons and money south. And 

we have to do more in terms of interdicting that—— 

Senator GRAHAM. What change in the law would you recommend, 

if any, in terms of the gun problem? 

Mr. KIBBLE. Sir, I think that we have the laws we need. We just 

need to more effectively and more aggressively pursue them. 

Senator GRAHAM. Do you need more agents? 

Mr. KIBBLE. With more resources, we could do more. 

Mr. PLACIDO. Thank you. First of all, I believe that this Congress, this body, has gone a long way with the Merida Initiative to 

help provide the resources necessary for the Government of Mexico 

to take steps on its own. The initial phase of the Merida Initiative 

is really geared toward interdiction, and I think that in the long 

term, the most important thing that we can do is to help a willing 

partner south of our border reform its institutions. 

Senator GRAHAM. So you do not suggest any major structural 

changes in our domestic law? 

Mr. PLACIDO. Well, I think that the Merida Initiative provided 

resources to the Mexican and Central American countries, but 

there was no corresponding increase for the U.S. law enforcement 

agencies that have to partner with them. 

Senator GRAHAM. Mr. Hoover? 

Mr. HOOVER. I would agree with Mr. Placido. Any resource we 

can get to help us in this struggle is certainly welcome. We—— 

Senator GRAHAM. Well, my question is: Can you think of any gap 

in our law that we could remedy in the short term? What about 

you, Mr. Goddard? 

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman, Senator Graham, I would certainly 

like to see stuff in our money transmission rules. Bulk cash can be 

intercepted with these agencies moving south, but wire transfer 

and stored value cards present overwhelming obstacles to us. 

Human trafficking in particular is facilitated—— 

Senator GRAHAM. Does everyone agree with that assessment? 

Mr. KIBBLE. Stored value cards have remained a consistent challenge because of their ability to avoid the CMIR regulations and 

not to declare the currency that they are transporting out. And we 

see that throughout more of our investigations where we are encountering this desire by our adversaries to rely on stored value 

cards. 

Senator GRAHAM. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman DURBIN. Senator Feinstein? 

Senator FEINSTEIN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Placido, you mentioned that the Merida equipment has gone 

to Mexico. To the best of my knowledge, it has not. The appropriation was in the omnibus just passed, and we have contacted the 

State Department and have been told that the helicopters and surveillance aircraft will not be available until 2011. 

22 

Now, I think this is something that we need to pay a lot of attention to and see if we cannot up this in the priority line. So I just 

wanted to mention that. This was of enormous concern to the Mexicans when they talked to me about this, and I would just like to 

commend President Caldero ́n. I think he has put his entire political 

career on this effort to fight drugs, and I think he needs every single bit of our support. 

Mr. Attorney General, I want to thank you for your comments. 

You made a list of strategic things that we could do, and I want 

to ask you about them in a moment. But one of the things that 

really has impacted our country are kidnappings, and you mentioned 700 kidnappings in 2 years in the Phoenix area. Tell us a 

little bit more about that. Tell us what it means. Tell us a little 

bit about the insurance companies setting up for people to insure 

themselves against kidnappings and the impact that this is now 

having in my State as well, in the San Diego area, if you would. 

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman, Senator Feinstein, I am not familiar with the insurance scandal that you just referred to. We have 

not seen that in Arizona, to my knowledge. What we have seen so 

far has been largely involving drug drop houses and human-smuggling drop houses, where the violent confrontation between members of rival gangs, rival drug-trafficking organizations, and 

human-smuggling operations basically seize the cargo, be it drugs 

or human beings, and change the price or extort the people that 

they have under their control to get more money from them. So 

human cargo or drug cargo are very valuable commodities, and 

they are apparently fungible. And so many of the kidnappings are 

as a result of this inter-gang, inter-cartel rivalry. 

We have been fortunate so far not to see, for example, business 

leaders or other people simply held as a target of opportunity in 

kidnappings. It has usually been within the criminal activities, 

but—so saying I am very concerned both at the possibility of innocent victims getting caught in the cross-fire, if you will. We have 

had at least one instance in Phoenix where there was a home invasion where they picked the wrong house, and they went after somebody who was totally uninvolved in either the human or the drug 

trade and assaulted that house with a number of rounds of highvelocity rounds. So we believe that the casual fallout is going to be 

significant if we cannot do something, as this Committee is considering, to try to assist Mexico in stopping it south of the border. 

Senator FEINSTEIN. Thank you. I wanted to ask the law enforcement people about the Arms Export Control Act passed in 1976, 

particularly Title 18 U.S.C. 922, and whether that—see, I am surprised at the small numbers of guns. Let me be candid. I think 

Senator Durbin is absolutely right. From what I hear, it is a lot 

more than just a few hundred. It really is in the thousands. And 

all these gun dealers that have sprung up in areas that allow these 

sales, the question is what to do about it. And I am curious if any 

of you have a recommendation as to how you could be given more 

authority to go in there and make these arrests of people and shut 

down the gun dealers that are knowingly selling guns in numbers—I mean, somebody comes in for one, 1 day, and then six in 

a week, and then another ten in another month. It ought to be 

pretty clear that they are transferring weapons. 

23 

So what do you need to shut it down? Mr. Hoover? 

Mr. HOOVER. Yes, ma’am. I would like to qualify what I stated 

earlier when Senator Durbin asked me about the numbers that 

flow daily across into Mexico. I am not sure where those institutes 

get their numbers. The investigations that we have and that we see 

for firearms flowing across the border do not show us individuals 

taking thousands of guns a day or at a time flowing into Mexico. 

And I was simply referring to the amount of weapons that we see 

these traffickers taking across the border. 

The FFLs that we work, we have to remember that these firearms are legally purchased in some instances. In some instances, 

they are not. And when we have information through our outreach 

with these Federal firearms licensees, the gun dealers, we certainly 

take quick action on surveilling those individuals and sharing information not just with my partners here at the table, but also 

with the officials in Mexico through our relationships with PGR 

and the various law enforcement agencies. And we provide that information as quickly as we can to those agencies to ensure we are 

acting on those folks that are taking the weapons across the border 

into Mexico. 

Senator FEINSTEIN. Yes, but, clearly, it is not enough. I mean, 

they are all over Mexico. 

Mr. HOOVER. Yes, ma’am. 

Senator FEINSTEIN. When we are told that 90 percent of the 

weapons used by the cartels come from the United States, we need 

to shut it off. 

Mr. KIBBLE. Ma’am, I would just also add that, speaking specifically to the Arms Export Control Act, that historically has been a 

statute that has been more challenging to work with because of the 

willfulness element in terms of the licensing requirements for an 

exporter to obtain a license from the State Department for U.S. 

Munitions List items. 

But with the renewal of the PATRIOT Act in 2006, we gained 

smuggling goods from the U.S., 18 U.S.C. 554, which essentially 

was the converse of our inbound smuggling authority, which dramatically simplified and made more consistent the elements that 

we need to establish to show smuggling. And that has been a new 

authority that we have really based our Armas Cruzadas effort on 

to attack these weapons-smuggling networks. 

Just in the past couple months, we have elevated our operations 

along the Southwest border, and just in a couple months, with 

some additional resources applied to this problem, we have identified a number of issues. 

First off, we have interdicted more weapons than we have in entire previous fiscal years just in a 2-month period. 

Second, we found that there are a lot of intelligence gaps, because where as we do see this technique that is called ‘‘ant trafficking’’ in terms of the majority of the weapons are moved in 

amounts of one or two weapons concealed in vehicles and driven 

across the land border, we do not know near enough about what 

is happening in the air domain, in our containerized shipments. 

And these are all areas where as we apply more resources to the 

problem, we will get a better picture of some of the vulnerabilities 

24 

and be able to better allocate resources to mitigate those particular 

vulnerabilities. 

Senator FEINSTEIN. Thank you. My time is up. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman DURBIN. Senator Grassley? 

Senator GRASSLEY. Mr. Chairman, I would like to put an article 

in the record relating to my questioning. 

Senator SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, what happened to the early 

bird rule? 

Chairman DURBIN. Excuse me just a second. 

I am trying to establish the appropriate protocol here because we 

have several Ranking Members. Senator Grassley is the Ranking 

Member on the Senate Caucus on International Narcotics Control. 

We could flip a coin or whatever you would like. 

Senator GRASSLEY. I could come back at 12:10, but I have got to 

be at a place at 11:57. 

Chairman DURBIN. What would you like to do, Senator Specter, 

as Ranking Member of the full Committee? 

Senator SPECTER. I will decide that the next time I am chairing 

the hearing. 

[Laughter.] 

Senator SPECTER. But I recollect being Ranking or something 

like that myself. 

Chairman DURBIN. Well, in my defense, I am going to plead that 

your Republican staff gave us the order, and I recognized Senator 

Grassley. 

Senator GRASSLEY. I did ask permission to put this in the record. 

Chairman DURBIN. Without objection. 

Senator GRASSLEY. I have been hearing about the need to reform 

law enforcement authority to investigate under Title 21. Currently, 

DEA and FBI have authority to investigate under Title 21 along 

with a limited number of ICE agents. ICE agents are cross-designated to conduct investigations under supervision of DEA. A 1994 

MOU between then-Customs Service and DEA limits the number 

of cross-designations. Further, I understand that efforts initiated in 

2004 to update this MOU failed. 

Mr. Kibble, if an ICE agent who is not cross-designated encounters narcotics in the course of another investigation within ICE’s 

jurisdiction, what happens? 

Mr. KIBBLE. Sir, he would either need to reach out to a cross-designated ICE agent that could respond to the scene to handle the 

ensuing investigation or a DEA agent. 

Senator GRASSLEY. In other words, that ICE agent could not 

make that arrest if they encountered—— 

Mr. KIBBLE. No, sir. Not under Title 21 authority, no, sir. 

Senator GRASSLEY. OK. Mr. Placido, how many ICE special 

agents have cross-designation authority? And how do they coordinate their investigations with the DEA? 

Mr. PLACIDO. Thank you for the question, Senator. There are 

currently 1,263 ICE agents who are cross-designated, and to my 

knowledge, we have never put an upper limit. That represents 

about 19 percent of Immigration and Customs Enforcement special 

agents who are cross-designated. And I do not believe that the discussion, spirited as it may have been over time, really revolves 

25 

around whether ICE should have Title 21 or not. It really revolves 

around the question of coordinating those investigations, the investigations that I cited for you—Project Reckoning and Operation Accelerator—being excellent examples. 

If we put more agents working counter-drug work and they do 

not coordinate through this SOD process, we could actually have 

the unintended consequence of putting more resources and having 

less results. 

Senator GRASSLEY. How do they coordinate? is my question. 

Mr. PLACIDO. Senator, frankly, we do not believe that we have 

the full measure of coordination within this SOD process that 

would include participation at the OCDETF Fusion Center, coordinating some of the bits of information we use to connect these 

seemingly disparate investigations, our communications devices, information that comes from financial investigations, and that has 

occasionally been a source of problems. 

Senator GRASSLEY. OK. Let us go back to Mr. Kibble. Who determines which agency will investigate drug crime with a border or 

port of entry nexus? 

Mr. KIBBLE. Well, currently, sir, we are governed by the MOU 

that you acknowledged was written in 1994 for seizures involving 

the port of entry. Cross-designated ICE agents can handle those investigations and also investigations involving smuggling, a border 

nexus, that are initiated by the agency. 

Senator GRASSLEY. Mr. Placido, has ICE asked for permission 

from DEA for additional personnel to have this special authority? 

If so, what is the status of that request? 

Mr. PLACIDO. Again, to my knowledge, Senator, we have never 

turned down requests for cross-designation. There is no upper limit 

on the numbers. The issue with DEA has always been not whether 

they have the authority, but how they would exercise it and under 

what conditions in terms of coordination. 

Mr. KIBBLE. If I could speak more broadly, Senator, to the issue, 

I think Tony hits on the exact question, because coordination has 

got to be key. We have got to figure out ways—we have always got 

to be working toward more effectively coordinating our efforts. But 

that extends beyond the Title 21 community. We are seeing these 

threats converge in cross-border criminal networks. So we have got 

to use mechanisms such as Fusion Centers, such as the Regional 

Deconfliction Centers that have proliferated throughout the country, and also new technological innovations such as DOJ’s NDEXs 

or DHS’ Law Enforcement Information Sharing Service. 

When we get that aside, then it comes to why not leverage 5,000 

additional agents, you know, with that authority. Just to kind of 

clarify what Tony made, there are pending requests, but, really, we 

have always been told that we are capped at 1,475 positions. 

Senator GRASSLEY. Let me answer the question. I think common 

sense dictates that it would be better to have more investigators 

looking for illegal drugs than not having more investigators looking 

at illegal drugs. 

Mr. KIBBLE. I would comment in this way: There are some efficiencies that are gained across the U.S. Government when we can 

deal with the full spectrum of cross-border crime. For example, 

those teams that we have added to deal with weapons and cash— 

26 

or primarily focused on weapons for Armas Cruzadas along the 

Southwest border—are also seizing millions of dollars in outbound 

currency, and they are also generating cooperating defendants that 

are providing information with respect to Title 21 matters. 

So there are efficiencies that are gained when an ICE investigator, responding at a particular event, can deal with the full spectrum of crime that is in front of him. 

Senator GRASSLEY. Well, let me ask you if you have considered 

raising the number of agents that can be cross-designated. And if 

you have not, why not? 

Mr. PLACIDO. As I have said, Senator, to my knowledge, there is 

no upper limit on the numbers of ICE agents that can be cross-designated, but if I may give you a practical example of what I am 

talking about. This year alone, the Drug Enforcement Administration will spend more than $56 million in taxpayer money to conduct court-authorized Title 3s or telecommunications intercepts. 

We do that in a way that is coordinated with most of our Federal 

partners because somebody taking even well-intentioned action 

that is uncoordinated can cause those month-long investigations, 

the defendants to drop cell phones, defendants who they were planning to arrest to become fugitives and to leave. 

And so our issue is not whether we could use more people to help 

us prosecute the efforts against drug traffickers. It is that those 

folks need to be working within a system that has been designed 

and crafted carefully over two decades and works very, very effectively. 

In fact, we see our partners at the FBI now moving their international organized crime center, which deals with non-drug-related 

organized crime, into the construct of Special Operations Division 

and the OCDETF Fusion Center for this very purpose. 

Chairman DURBIN. Thank you very much. 

I will now recognize Senator Feingold, and then, in an attempt 

to rescue my career on the Senate Judiciary Committee, Senator 

Specter. Senator Feingold. 

Senator FEINGOLD. I will support that and thank you. I do want 

to thank Senators Durbin and Feinstein for calling this hearing to 

discuss this urgent national security matter. I thank the witnesses 

for being here. 

First, I want to note how pleased I am that we are finally starting to provide State and local law enforcement with the funding 

that it needs to keep us safe. This much-needed support was simply not provided during the previous administration, and for the 

past several years, when I have met with law enforcement personnel everywhere in my State, the conversation has always been 

about the severe lack of funding and the resulting rising crime 

rates and job losses and lack of innovation. 

Of course, another issue that I am hearing more and more about 

is the prevalence of Mexican-produced drugs in my State. The DEA 

recently released its 2008 report including specifics about the drug 

situation in Wisconsin. According to the report, Mexican drug-trafficking organizations are responsible for most of the cocaine, crack, 

and marijuana that is available in Wisconsin, and they also bring 

methamphetamines into the State. And although Wisconsin does 

not contain a major hub city for Mexican drug traffickers, it is loVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:42 Jul 06, 2010 Jkt 056913 PO 00000 Frm 00030 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\56913.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC
27 

cated with Chicago to its south and Minneapolis to its west, and 

this makes cities in Wisconsin easy secondary destinations for large 

amounts of drugs. 

While the effects of the problem are being seen by State and local 

law enforcement across the country, at its core this is an issue, of 

course, about our border with Mexico. This problem, as we have 

heard today, has taken on an increasingly troubling dimension as 

the violence in Mexico and along the border has exploded over the 

last 2 years, and this has had devastating consequences for Mexican law enforcement, military personnel, and, as you have said, innocent bystanders. 

We must address this crisis in a proactive and coordinated manner focusing on improving law enforcement while also supporting 

efforts to enhance the rule of law in Mexico. So the hearing today 

is very important to move this forward. 

Mr. Kibble and Mr. Hoover, I was deeply troubled to learn that 

the vast majority of weapons used by drug cartels in Mexico come 

from the United States and that the Mexican cartels are increasingly smuggling military equipment that cannot be legally sold to 

civilians in either country. Could you please describe the primary 

source of such weapons and what efforts are underway to enhance 

our ability to prevent these weapons from entering the civilian sector? Mr. Hoover. 

Mr. HOOVER. As far as military firearms, sir, we have had fewer 

than, I believe, a dozen traces that go back to military firearms. 

Now, we have had some United States—originated military instruments such as grenades that have ended up with the cartels, and 

I would like to speak to you in another hearing or another matter 

about that. But I cannot go further into that as we are in this session. 

Senator FEINGOLD. We will do that later. 

Mr. HOOVER. Yes, sir. 

Senator FEINGOLD. Mr. Kibble. 

Mr. KIBBLE. Sir, this is more anecdotal, but we do have some investigations that have indicated that those weapons may be diverted from other regions and not necessarily coming directly from 

the U.S. And that is, again, something that we could discuss in 

greater detail in another forum. 

Senator FEINGOLD. I look forward to doing that. 

Mr. Placido, are you coordinating your efforts to train Mexican 

law enforcement personnel with USAID’s judicial reform efforts? 

Mr. PLACIDO. Within the embassy, there is a law enforcement 

country team that does include USAID, and I know that under the 

Merida Initiative, there is that coordination. Most of the training 

that DEA is directly involved in involves our vetted units that we 

work with in Mexico. That portion of the training is not really 

closely affiliated with the USAID effort. They tend to be focused on 

the judicial reform piece with the judges, prosecutors, and the institutions that they represent, sir. 

Senator FEINGOLD. Could you also comment on the State Department’s Merida Initiative? Which aspects of this initiative have been 

the most effective and where is there some room for improvement? 

Mr. PLACIDO. Well, I think as Senator Feinstein mentioned, there 

certainly is a delay in some of the big-ticket items, like helicopters 

28 

and vessels and planes that are—frankly, they require a protracted 

process for approval here in the United States, and then once they 

are approved in terms of an exchange, these are not the kinds of 

items that are sitting on the shelf and they purchase one and send 

it down. So there has been a lag in the delivery of some of the bigticket items that will be important in helping the Mexican Government facilitate its important work. 

I think the area that we have been most successful in, frankly, 

has been in the soft side, exchanging intelligence information and 

collaborating with one another to identify key vulnerabilities in 

this trade and to immobilize the command-and-control elements of 

the organizations that foment so much of this violence. 

Senator FEINGOLD. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman DURBIN. Senator Specter. 

Senator SPECTER. The facts about what is going on in Mexico are 

staggering, posing an enormous threat to the United States. When 

we listen to the testimony and follow the press, we see that it is 

anarchy down there. When you have a police chief in Jua ́ rez who 

is forced out of office because they are killing his deputies, how 

much closer can you come to total breakdown of law and order? 

When you see how much drugs are coming into this country from 

Mexico, threatening our young people and older people alike, I 

think we just have to do a lot more about it. And the agencies here 

have an enormous responsibility, which is not being fulfilled. If 

your resources are insufficient, you ought to be raising hell and 

bringing those demands to this Committee. 

I have made two trips to Mexico, in August of 2005 and also in 

August of 2008. I had been there before, but I went especially to 

talk to the narcotics officials. And they emphasized to me that the 

United States is a major cause of the problem on smuggling, weapons smuggling. And that is something that is our responsibility 

that we ought to do something about. 

The kind of funds which have been allocated to Mexico are small 

compared to what we spend in other places, looking at $400 million 

last year. Looking at what was done in Colombia, the United 

States had an investment of something like $4.5 billion. Colombia 

had a problem, which was awful, but I do not think any worse than 

Mexico. The drug cartels shot up the Supreme Court in the early 

1980’s. When I traveled to Colombia, I would go in in the morning 

and leave before sunset, because U.S. citizens were being kidnapped. A million dollars was a cheap price tag. So there is really 

a great deal more that needs to be done. 

We are going to have the confirmation hearing of the new socalled drug czar, the Seattle Chief of Police, Gil Kerlikowske, and 

that will give this Committee an opportunity to really dig in and 

do something more. I hear people planning trips to Mexico, American citizens, and am wondering if they really ought to go. 

Governor Goddard, how serious is the problem for your citizens 

in a neighboring State? 

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman, Senator Specter, I appreciate the 

promotion; I am the Attorney General. But my thanks, sir. 

Senator SPECTER. Attorney General. You are just one step away. 

[Laughter.] 

29 

Mr. GODDARD. Aspiring perhaps, but not there. 

Senator SPECTER. I may have understated the case by not calling 

you ‘‘Senator,’’ or maybe that would have been less complimentary 

than ‘‘Governor.’’ It is kind of hard to figure that out. 

Mr. GODDARD. It would have been highly complementary, Senator. But we are facing a very serious issue. One of our universities 

basically for spring break said that they did not advise their students to go into Mexico. 

Senator SPECTER. How much are your citizens threatened, if at 

all, by what is going on in Mexico? 

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman, Senator Specter, I believe they are 

increasingly threatened. Right now, the kind of—— 

Senator SPECTER. Never mind ‘‘increasingly.’’ Are they threatened? 

Mr. GODDARD. Yes, sir, through kidnappings, through violent 

confrontations between drug dealers and human smugglers. Yes, 

we are threatened. 

Senator SPECTER. Let me turn to Mr. Hoover and Mr. Placido 

and Mr. Kibble. You men have direct responsibilities on the smuggling issue. What kind of resources do you need to stop the smuggling? We talk about illegal immigrants coming in from Mexico. It 

is a lot more serious if illegal weapons are going into Mexico. 

Well, my time is up, and I am not going to exceed it. But I would 

like an answer in writing from each of you, or maybe from your Directors, as to what you need to solve the smuggling problem. My 

conversations with the Mexican officials tell me that they think 

that weopons smuggling is a tremendous part of the problem. They 

would also like to see us cut down on our demand side so that it 

would not encourage people to smuggle drugs into the United 

States. But on the gun smuggling, that is right at our doorstep. 

That concludes my questioning. 

Chairman DURBIN. Thank you. 

Senator Klobuchar. 

STATEMENT OF HON. AMY KLOBUCHAR, A U.S. SENATOR 

FROM THE STATE OF MINNESOTA 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. Thank you very much, Senator Durbin, for 

holding this hearing. I also wanted to thank my colleague Senator 

Kaufman for allowing me to go next. 

I want to thank you for all the good work you are doing. I am 

a former prosecutor. I know how difficult this can be. And I wanted 

to also say, as Senator Feingold mentioned, we are seeing this in 

the Midwest as well. We have just seen in Minnesota just last 

month Federal law enforcement officials arrested 27 individuals in 

Minneapolis and St. Paul with ties to Mexico’s powerful Sinaloa 

cartel. So this is not just in Arizona, as bad as it is. It is across 

the United States. 

One of the things that I have been reading about, Mr. Placido, 

is just that there are reports that these major cartels that used to 

be fighting each other are now potentially joining forces in alliance, 

which makes it even harder to take them on. Is there any truth 

to that? 

Mr. PLACIDO. Well, thank you for the question. We have heard 

at various times over the last 2 years discussions about alliances 

30 

and partnerships among and between rival cartels. They have 

never held and they have fallen apart in the past, and what we see 

is you could actually group the violence in Mexico into three broad 

categories: intra-cartel violence, where members of the same criminal enterprise are fighting one another, and we see a great deal of 

that within the Sinaloa cartel as Beltran Leyva has broken away 

from ‘‘El Chapo’’ Guzman, and Guzman and Ismael Zambada Garcia; we see inter-cartel violence where rival cartels fight each other; 

and violence between the cartels and the government itself. 

One of the things that we have been very pleased about is in our 

discussions with the Government of Mexico. They appreciate the 

fact that it is necessary to systematically attack all of the cartels 

at the same time so that we do not have the unintended consequence of creating a super cartel that does not have to compete 

with others. We think that that is going to be an important milestone as we advance on the Merida Initiative to make sure that the 

power and influence of these criminal organizations are decreased 

at similar levels. So far, we see that happening. 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. OK. Very good. Also, we have had some discussions about the corruption and what that means, and I believe, 

if we are really going to make this work and help President 

Caldero ́n, who has taken such admirable steps, that we need to 

have a strong judicial system in Mexico that is not corrupt. 

Attorney General Goddard, do you want to comment on how we 

are going to get there and any ideas you have for that? 

Mr. GODDARD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Senator Klobuchar. I 

am pleased to do that because our group of Western Attorneys 

General is part of, a very small part down at the bottom of the 

Merida Initiative, trying to provide some training to the Mexican 

state officials who are changing the way they do criminal justice. 

They are going to a confrontation style much more similar to ours 

in terms of courtroom procedure. And I think that is a very exciting 

change and will have a much greater—— 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. What did they have before if they did not 

have—maybe I am just too used to confrontation style. 

Mr. GODDARD. They do not have jury trials. They have criminal 

trials based before a judge, without witnesses, entirely based on 

sworn deposition testimony. So it is a paper trial, and, unfortunately, that I believe has had—I do not want to be critical of a different system of jurisdiction, but, nonetheless, it has tended to be 

nontransparent, it has tended to be fairly slow to convict some of 

the criminals that come before the bar. And I think the change is 

something that would be very positive. 

There also have been some very significant efforts to help, let us 

say, professionalize the police force throughout Mexico. Literally 

thousands of officers have been discharged because of their connections with the drug cartels. And I think, as has been said by many 

of the panelists here, the efforts by the Caldero ́n administration to 

basically fight on every front against the threat that they are facing is extraordinary and commendable. 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. So, in other words, when they do it just on 

paper, it could lend itself to more corruption because it is not 

transparent, there are not hearings in public? 

Mr. GODDARD. Senator, that is certainly my belief. 

31 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. OK. Very good. And the last question just 

quickly, the banking. You raised that, Attorney General Goddard. 

To get to the proceeds, to get to the money, which you all talked 

about, we are going to have to be able to follow those monies. As 

we used to say in our office, ‘‘Follow the money and you find the 

bad guys.’’ So could you talk about how that cooperation is going? 

Mr. GODDARD. In light of the discussion, Senator, it could be certainly better. For a long time, we have been the only agency—Federal, State, or local—that has done the money transfer prosecutions 

in connection with human smuggling. 

Now, the drug transfers are very different, and they largely involve bulk cash. Human smuggling involves electronic transfer. 

And as I said in my testimony, we could use a lot of help in terms 

of interagency coordination, in terms of interstate coordination. We 

definitely believe all the border States ought to be involved in both 

Mexico and the United States. And locating the money transmitters—we believe we know where they are, just based on the data. 

But our data now is 3 years old. Nothing from the wire transmitters has come into our hands since then. We have gotten pretty 

good at being able to identify those particular transmitting agents 

who are corrupt. 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. OK. Thank you very much. 

Mr. KIBBLE. I would—— 

Chairman DURBIN. Thank you very much—oh, I am sorry. Go 

ahead. 

Mr. KIBBLE. I would just add that, speaking more broadly about 

money laundering, and bilateral money-laundering efforts in particular, the collaboration has never been better with the Mexicans, 

whether it be bulk cash smuggling, whether it be trade-based 

money laundering, such as a black market peso exchange. We have 

run parallel electronic intercept operations, and we exchange information real time. It has never been better. 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. Thank you very much. 

Chairman DURBIN. Before recognizing Senator Sessions, Senator 

Feinstein has asked for our indulgence to clarify the record. 

Senator FEINSTEIN. If I may, on the funding of Merida, as I understand it, the first funding of Merida was in last year’s emergency supplemental. The omnibus that we just passed added $300 

million of funding. I think you are correct, Mr. Placido, that it is 

the big equipment, it is the helicopters and the surveillance equipment which they need, and need long before 2011, when they are 

slated to get it. 

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman DURBIN. Senator Sessions. 

Senator SESSIONS. Thank you. 

On the question of guns, isn’t it true, Mr. Hoover, that most of 

the gun dealers operating illegally, you do undercover operations 

and other things if you think they are illegal, and their guns can 

be bought or stolen, and those tend to be the guns that are probably shipped into Mexico? It is not like there are one or two gun 

dealers selling guns by the hundreds to bad people, is it? 

Mr. HOOVER. If we uncover FFLs doing that, we would revoke 

them and prosecute them. I can tell you that ATF in calendar year 

2008 conducted over 11,000 inspections of Federal firearms licensVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:42 Jul 06, 2010 Jkt 056913 PO 00000 Frm 00035 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\56913.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC
32 

ees and found that less than 1 percent needed to have their licenses—— 

Senator SESSIONS. Well, yes, and it is just—we have got a constitutional right to keep and bear arms, and Mexico does not. And 

so it is really not an answer to this problem that the United States 

is going to stop providing its citizens with guns. That is just not 

going to happen. 

Can a non-citizen buy a gun in the United States? 

Mr. HOOVER. Under certain circumstances, yes, sir. An alien can 

purchase a firearm with proper identification. He can have a—— 

Senator SESSIONS. What about if they are illegally here? 

Mr. HOOVER. No, sir, not illegally. 

Senator SESSIONS. So if a person is using false identification or 

something, that is a Federal crime? 

Mr. HOOVER. That is, sir. 

Senator SESSIONS. Wouldn’t that be a good way to help Mexico, 

identify people who are here illegally, that are buying guns and are 

receiving and transporting them illegally? 

Mr. HOOVER. Absolutely. 

Senator SESSIONS. That would be a Federal offense already. Well, 

I think we could look for other things we could do to help, but to 

me, that is not the problem. We have got a lot of guns on our side 

of the fence, and people can go and buy them whenever they want 

to. But we do not have the murder rate that Mexico now has. The 

problem with the murder rate in Mexico, I think, as some of you 

have indicated, is the President is stepping up; he is taking on 

these cartels. It is causing violence, and if he will see this through, 

like President Uribe has done in Colombia, I believe he is going to 

be successful. And he needs to be successful not for the United 

States but for the people of Mexico. He cannot allow organized 

criminal elements to use violence, intimidation, and murder to operate in his country and be a safe, decent place that the good people of Mexico would like it to be. So I respect what he is doing. I 

appreciate that. 

I would note that we had dramatic decreases in violence along 

the area of the border in San Diego where a fence was placed. We 

still have not completed all the fencing. I see recently in the Arizona Star Sunday, Border Patrol Station Chief Alan White said, 

‘‘These fences are absolutely necessary. I can’t look you in the eye 

and tell you I am doing a good job without these barriers.’’ So I 

think we need to complete what the Congress has passed, and I 

hope this administration will do so. 

Now, let me get to the thing I would like to say. It strikes me 

as a prosecutor—and Attorney General Goddard is—you talk about 

the joint operations that have been successful. That is my idea of 

what works. It seems to me—Mr. Placido, you are an intel guy. It 

seems to me that these organizations in Mexico have tentacles that 

reach all into the United States, and it is those tentacles that collect the money and funnel it back that builds their power. Is that 

correct, fundamentally? 

Mr. PLACIDO. Yes, sir. 

Senator SESSIONS. And isn’t one of the best ways we can help 

Mexico is to identify through intelligence, through task forces, and 

that sort of thing, and target these organizations that are collecting 

33 

the money in the United States and prosecute them aggressively? 

Wouldn’t that be a very good way to weaken the cartels in Mexico? 

Mr. PLACIDO. It is, and it is, in fact, what we are doing, sir. If 

you look at Operation Accelerator that recently came down, a joint 

Interagency-OCDETF investigation led by DEA results in over 750 

arrests of people, predominantly in the United States, affiliated 

with the Sinaloa cartel. Prior to that, Project Reckoning that targeted the Gulf cartel in Mexico resulted in similar numbers of arrests, as well as seizures in aggregate between both operations of 

over $130 million in cash that fuels that violence. So, yes, sir, we 

agree. 

Senator SESSIONS. So that is a continual flow of American wealth 

that strengthened these illegal cartels. 

Mr. Attorney General, what do you think about that? You see it 

from a border State’s perspective, and you talked about some of 

these effective joints operations. 

Mr. GODDARD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Senator Sessions. The 

only way we have been successful has been through joint operations with local police forces and sheriffs and through the Federal 

agencies that are here at this table and a number of others—Border Patrol, FBI, Park Service. There is truly an extraordinary number of different Federal resources that are necessary to deal with 

this problem. 

I would simply point out that the cartels are dealing in four 

things for sure: human beings, drugs, arms, and cash. And here at 

the table we have different agencies that deal with arms, that deal 

with drugs, that deal with human beings. Somewhere else the cash 

people, I suppose, are sequestered. The only way we are going to 

be successful is to truly mount a comprehensive attack upon the 

cartels. They are doing a comprehensive attack on us through all 

four of these different criminal activities. 

I am afraid in this country we tend to segregate by specialty the 

various areas that we are going to prosecute, and our experience 

on the border is we cannot do that. We have got to cross the jurisdictional lines, or we are going to fail. 

Senator SESSIONS. That I could not agree more, Mr. Chairman. 

Thank you, Attorney General. 

Chairman DURBIN. Thank you, Senator Sessions. 

Senator Kaufman. 

Senator KAUFMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you CoChairman Senator Feinstein. I think this is a great idea. Clearly, 

the hearing already has helped me understand what has gone on, 

and I think that this Subcommittee on Crime and Drugs has a very 

ambitious schedule, and I think it will be a good one. And I am 

look forward to participating. 

Attorney General Goddard, I think you are quite compelling on 

wire transfers. What could this Committee do, what could the Congress do, what could the Federal Government do to help you as an 

Attorney General deal with these problems or make it easier for 

you to catch these folks? 

Mr. GODDARD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Senator Kaufman. I 

think the first thing is data. We need to know the volume. We can 

discriminate within the billions of dollars of wire transfers back 

and forth across the border those that are most characteristic of 

34 

criminal activity. But we have to have the data first, and that is 

what we have had, comprehensive and systematic efforts to avoid 

providing that information. 

I think it is going to take a certain amount of Federal authority 

to make sure that it happens. I think we have to change some of 

the definitions. We have talked about stored value cards. It is a 

huge loophole that I think is already blowing a hole in our moneylaundering prevention ability, and we need to step up that. And we 

have, I think, too high a threshold for individual daily amounts of 

financial transactions, especially by electronic transfer, that result 

in a reported incident. It is $10,000 today. I am not going to get 

in the way of the legislators in terms of where it should be, but I 

would submit it should be much lower than it is today. 

Senator KAUFMAN. Thank you. 

Representatives of the Federal agencies, I do not know how you 

do this. I mean, with corruption as rampant as it is in Mexico in 

the law enforcement community—at least, that is my understanding—does the local law enforcement, even President Caldero ́n, 

have the ability to investigate and catch drug cartels with the 

amazing of corruption that is going on? Mr. Placido? 

Mr. PLACIDO. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question, Senator. 

Again, as someone who has followed Mexico closely, I have to tell 

you, I have been deeply impressed with the level of commitment to 

not only fighting the cartels, but to cleaning up corruption in Mexico by this administration. I think it was mentioned here earlier by 

the Chairman, but effectively the deputy attorney General of PGR 

of Mexico’s attorney general office, was arrested and is being prosecuted in Mexico. That is not at the insistence of the U.S. Government. That is because the government in Mexico, President 

Caldero ́n, is committed to cleaning it up. 

I do not want to minimize how difficult it will be. He has a large 

challenge in front of him. But we see them absolutely committed, 

and they have been collaborating not only with DEA but with the 

U.S. Department of Justice on a project that I guess translates to 

‘‘Operation Clean-up’’ to comprehensively address corruption, not 

only in the attorney general’s office but in the secretariat of public 

security and in the military, and they have arrested senior-level officials in all three of those organizations. 

Their commitment, in my view, is absolutely unparalleled in the 

time that I have been watching this situation. 

Senator KAUFMAN. Mr. Kibble and Mr. Hoover, is that pretty 

much your feeling? 

Mr. Placido, I understand there is an effort in this line to create 

kind of a national police force with even kind of an anti-drug division similar to DEA. What do you think? Is this something that is 

realistic? Can it work? How do you feel about it? 

Mr. PLACIDO. Senator, in the past in Mexico, there have been any 

number of attempts to reorganize changing the names and the 

identities of the organizations involved. And while it may, in fact, 

be beneficial for them to create the so-called Cuerpo Policia Federal, or the Federal Police force, that will not be the solution. The 

solution is what they are doing right now, the hard work of eliminating corruption and building organizations that are credible and 

competent. And may I say, there are in those organizations today 

35 

many courageous and heroic people who are laboring at great personal risk to help Mexico and, by extension, help the United States. 

Senator KAUFMAN. Thank you. 

Mr. Hoover, just to kind of clarify the record, are guns being 

shipped from the United States into Mexico part of the problem? 

Mr. HOOVER. Shipped into Mexico, they would be trafficked illegally, yes, sir, that would definitely be part of the problem. 

Senator KAUFMAN. I just want to make sure that we all understand. This is a key part of the problem, guns that come from the 

United States into Mexico. 

Mr. HOOVER. Yes, sir. As indicated previously by both Senator 

Durbin and Senator Feinstein, 90 percent of the weapons that we 

traced that the Mexicans recover are source state here in the 

United States. 

Senator KAUFMAN. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman DURBIN. Thank you, Senator Kaufman. 

Senator Wyden. 

Senator WYDEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to commend 

you, Mr. Chairman, and also Senator Feinstein. I know both of you 

have a longstanding interest in this, and I think it is an extremely 

important hearing, and I want to commend my colleagues for getting into it. 

Attorney General Goddard, a question for you, and I am going 

to spare, I think, you other three, at least from my initial round, 

because the Attorney General has been working in an area that Oregon law enforcement officials are particularly interested in, and 

that is, this matter of Article 4 prosecutions. 

Article 4 prosecutions allow U.S. authorities to pursue Mexican 

nationals who have committed a crime—a crime in Oregon or California or Illinois—and then flee to Mexico. And in our State, law 

enforcement officials are dealing with a case exactly like this right 

now. 

There has been an allegation of a double murder. The accused is 

a Mexican national who was charged with killing his cousin and 

niece in January in Polk County and has fled to Mexico. And Oregon law enforcement officials would like to see this individual 

prosecuted. 

So could you tell us your experience, Attorney General Goddard, 

with Article 4 prosecutions? 

Mr. GODDARD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Senator Wyden. I certainly would be happy to. I believe Article 4 is one of the important 

tools in the arsenal. In Arizona, we have used the process on many 

occasions while I have been Attorney General, and it goes back way 

before then. 

It is complicated, and it requires a certain amount of specialized 

knowledge. We have in Arizona specialized prosecutors and investigators who understand the process that is required by Article 4. 

It is very different from our method of criminal trial. But it does 

provide the opportunity in the case that you have given—and we 

have several similar in Arizona—where we know who the suspect 

is, to be able to bring it to the attention of the Mexican authorities 

and have them tried and, if convicted, serve their sentence in Mexico. 

36 

Senator WYDEN. Let us talk about ways to make it simpler, because I think you have put your finger on it, that this is a useful 

tool, but at present it is just too complicated as it is presently constituted. 

Would it be helpful, in your judgment, to have the Justice Department, the U.S. Justice Department, involved in these cases? 

The Justice Department, as the program is now set up, is not involved. 

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman, Senator Wyden, I am cautious of 

that. As a State Attorney General, we like to do things ourselves. 

But you put your finger on an important disparity. Article 4s are 

handled by the Justice Department in Mexico, by the PGR. And so 

we have sort of the anomalous situation of States dealing with a 

Federal agency. I think it has worked pretty well, but it probably 

could be improved, both in terms of understanding of the process 

and making it simply more available to prosecutors throughout our 

country. 

Senator WYDEN. Because my sense is, talking to local law enforcement officials, they certainly do not want the Federal Government to come on in and dictate to them various things with respect 

to these prosecutions. But they do like the idea of some help with 

coordinating the way these cases are brought. There may be instances where some training and specialized assistance is necessary. I gather that those kinds of things you would see as useful. 

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman, Senator Wyden, absolutely. I think 

anything that could raise the bar in this kind of joint prosecution 

effort and in the new area that we are just beginning to look at 

now, which is using Article 4 not just where we have a carefully 

identified suspect, which is the way it is done today, but to actually 

collaborate with Mexican authorities in the investigation of crime 

so that when we have a suspect but we do not know who they are, 

we could open an investigative file on both sides of the border 

using Article 4, and thereby I think significantly increase our ability to cross the border with law enforcement efforts. 

Senator WYDEN. So if you are me, and you are drafting legislation because your local law enforcement officials want to get more 

mileage out of Article 4, what else would you consider putting in 

other than the issues we are talking about with respect to the Justice Department? 

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman, Senator Wyden, I would be happy 

to work on that with some of our Article 4 folks in Arizona. I believe training, funding, and the enhancement of investigations 

jointly on both sides of the border are tremendously helpful. Certainly, Justice Department active involvement could be very helpful 

in coordinating what right now is an extremely diverse and, I 

would say, fractured effort to—— 

Senator WYDEN. We will follow up with you, and just so I am 

clear, this is something that you consider a useful tool, you would 

like to make more use of it in the future. Looking at ways to make 

it simpler and to expedite it would be helpful, I—— 

Mr. GODDARD. Senator, absolutely. 

Senator WYDEN. OK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Then Senator 

Feinstein. 

Chairman DURBIN. Thank you, Senator Wyden. 

37 

I want to thank the entire panel and just note for the record that 

we had ten members of this Committee come to ask questions, 

which is extraordinary for a Subcommittee meeting and I think reflects the gravity of the issue that we are considering. Thanks to 

each of you for your testimony. 

I would like to thank the Attorney General of Arizona especially 

for coming. I think you have really issued a challenge to this Committee. We acknowledge your statement that we are dealing with 

the organized criminal threat from these Mexican drug cartels in 

the United States today, and this will not be the last of the hearings on the subject. There will be more, and I am going to invite 

Senator Feinstein, as often as she would like to, to participate with 

members of her panel as well. 

My frustration from time to time with these Subcommittee hearings, for those who are watching, those who are testifying, is you 

wonder: Now what is going to happen? What is next? I think you 

have given us three practical, specific ideas that we are going to 

look into. There may be more ideas that have come out of this testimony. But certainly one would be to expand the High Intensity 

Drug Trafficking Areas to include weapons and human trafficking; 

second, to lower the $10,000 reporting threshold for these fund 

transfers; and third, to expand our efforts when it comes to stored 

value cards so that they can be read by law enforcement and we 

can appreciate how much money is being transferred at any given 

time. Those are three issues that I wrote down quickly. As we review the record, there may be more, but we would like to work 

with you on that. 

The last point I would like to make is that you mentioned Western Union in both your written and oral testimony. When we read 

that yesterday, we contacted Western Union and asked them if 

they would like to submit a written statement for the record. They 

may do that, and if so, I will send it to you for your reply as well 

so that the record is complete. 

To the other members of the panel, thank you as well. There 

could be written questions coming your way. We certainly appreciate your being here today. 

Thank you. 

Chairman DURBIN. We are now going to move to the second 

panel of witnesses and complete the hearing. As these witnesses 

are taking their place at the witness table, I am going to give you 

a brief bio for each in the interest of saving some time. 

Our first witness will be Professor Denise Dresser, who has been 

a professor of Political Science at the Instituto Tecnolo ́gico 

Auto ́nomo de Me ́xico since 1991. She is a contributing editor at the 

Los Angeles Times, writes a political column for the Mexican newspaper Reforma and the news weekly Proceso. I hope I pronounced 

that correctly. Professor Dresser is the author of numerous publications on Mexican politics and on U.S.-Mexico relations. She has 

taught at the highly regarded Georgetown University and the University of California at Berkeley. She has a doctoral degree in politics from Princeton University and a bachelor’s degree from El 

Colegio de Me ́xico. Professor Dresser, thank you for traveling so far 

to join us today. 

38 

We also have as a witness Jorge Luis Aguirre, Founder and Director of LaPolaka.com, the most popular electronic newspaper in 

the State of Chihuahua. Mr. Aguirre was born in the State of Chihuahua in Mexico and has worked as a journalist for three decades, 

has a law degree from Universidad Auto ́noma de Ciudad Jua ́ rez. 

I majored in French. Mr. Aguirre was forced to flee from Jua ́ rez 

late last year because of his work as a journalist, and he is currently living in hiding in El Paso. The topic of today’s hearing has 

affected his life personally in a way that most of us can only imagine. 

I would ask the witnesses if they would not mind standing to accept the oath before their testimony, so if you would not mind, both 

please stand. Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to 

give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 

so help you God? 

Ms. DRESSER. I do. 

Mr. AGUIRRE. I do. 

Chairman DURBIN. Let the record reflect that both witnesses 

have answered in the affirmative. 

Professor Dresser, your written statement will be part of the 

record, and now if would give us your oral statement, please. 

STATEMENT OF DENISE EUGENIA DRESSER GUERRA, PROFESSOR, DEPARTMENT OF POLITICAL SCIENCE, INSTITUTO 

TECNOLOGICO AUTONOMO DE MEXICO, MEXICO CITY, MEXICO 

Ms. DRESSER. Thank you. Chairman Durbin, honorable members 

of the Committee, I welcome the opportunity to speak about Mexico’s efforts to combat drug trafficking and organized crime. 

As has been said earlier today, at the helm of an increasingly 

visible and active army, President Felipe Caldero ́n has declared a 

war against drug trafficking and the organized crime networks it 

has spawned. Given the increasingly lawless conditions of the country he inherited, Calderon had little choice but to act, and he is to 

be commended for doing so, because my home has become a place 

where too many people die, gunned down by a drug trafficker or 

assaulted by a robber or shot by an ill-trained police officer or kidnapped or strangled by a member of a criminal gang. 

Now, dealing with this problem that Calderon took on has not 

been easy, because the surge of drug trafficking in Mexico reflects 

a painful paradox. The government’s drug efforts are undermined 

by the corrupting influence of the drug trade, yet the drug trade 

cannot survive without the protection of compromised elements 

within the government itself. As a result, it frequently becomes difficult to distinguish those charged with smuggling from the smugglers themselves. Mexico is a place where, if you are the victim of 

a crime, the last person you call is a police officer. 

In the face of police corruption, Calderon has turned to the military to take on the anti-drug effort, but the bringing of soldiers out 

of the barracks and moving them around the country at will is also 

a cause for concern. Given its expanded role, the military is becoming the supreme authority, in some cases the only authority, in 

parts of some states, and great militarization is also leading to corVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:42 Jul 06, 2010 Jkt 056913 PO 00000 Frm 00042 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\56913.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC
39 

ruption within an institution that has turned into the last credible 

beachhead in Mexico’s longstanding battle. 

What we have seen is that over the past decade, Mexico’s transition to democracy has cast a glaring light on our precarious, uneven, and limited rule of law. Cases of official corruption abound, 

and the credibility of public institutions has suffered when those 

proven guilty have eluded punishment. As a result, impunity runs 

rampant. Imagine living in a country where 75 percent of crimes 

are never reported due to lack of trust in the authorities and where 

98 percent of crimes are never resolved or punished. 

So while President Calderon’s efforts are to be applauded, they 

must also be accompanied by comprehensive efforts that entail 

more than soldiers on the streets. The prospects for a more stable, 

less insecure Mexico will be contingent on the government’s capacity to enact a major overhaul of the judiciary and law enforcement 

apparatus. It will be dependent on the government’s political will 

to confront corruption at the highest levels of the political system— 

something the President has been reluctant to do. Otherwise, it 

will not matter how many troops are trained, how many weapons 

are shipped, and how many helicopters are bought. Colombia has spent over $5 billion in U.S. aid with mixed results, more security but no end to the drug production. So the lesson is clear: One of the main objectives of the war that the Mexican 

Government is fighting should not only be the destruction of the 

drug cartels, but also the construction of the rule of law in Mexico. 

I would urge you to face what has undoubtedly become a shared 

bilateral challenge with honesty, realism, and determination, and 

that would entail a recognition of U.S. responsibilities, an understanding of what the U.S. has done and failed to do vis-a-vis Mexico. 

As has been said, Mexican drug traffickers buy arms that the 

U.S. sells. Over 2,000 weapons cross the border on a daily basis, 

and many of them are sold in an illegal fashion. Mexican drug traffickers provide cocaine that U.S. users demand. Over 35 million 

American citizens are drug users. Mexican drug traffickers have 

been able to set up distribution networks across over 200 U.S. cities because very little has been done to stop them. 

So, in the face of an increasingly dire situation, the U.S. can help 

by providing more anti-narcotics operations within its own borders 

of the sort announced by Attorney General Eric Holder several 

weeks ago. The U.S. can help, as has been suggested here by Terry 

Goddard, on clamping down on money laundering and financial 

flows that have enabled people like Mexican drug trafficker Joaquin Guzman to amass a billion dollar fortune and enter the 

Forbes list. The U.S. can help by addressing the demand for drugs 

in its own cities, and President Obama’s recent remarks in this regard are most welcome. 

The U.S. can help by cooperating more and not less on security 

matters, and in this regard, it is worrisome that the funds channeled to the Merida Initiative were reduced recently. 

Finally, I think the U.S. Government and its people need to understand that this war cannot be waged effectively if the demand 

for drugs here is not stymied. To believe that it can be won without 

dealing with drug consumption and demand-driven forces in the 

40 

U.S. is to believe that one can stop an earthquake or a hurricane. 

For every drug trafficker that is caught, another one will emerge 

in his place. Indeed, Mexico is paying a very high price for our inability—and I think we recognize this—to construct a prosperous, 

dynamic, inclusive, lawful country in which citizens are not propelled into illicit activities in order to survive and criminals are not 

protected by the government itself. But we are also paying a very 

high price for American voracity. Ours is a shared problem that 

will require shared solutions. Ours is a joint struggle that will demand, if not the audacity of hope, at least the audacity of understanding that the time has come to make the neighborhood, our 

neighborhood, safe again. 

Thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Dresser appears as a submission 

for the record.] 

Chairman DURBIN. Thank you, Professor Dresser. 

Mr. Aguirre, I understand you are going to rely on an interpreter, and we invite you now to submit your oral testimony. 

STATEMENT OF JORGE LUIS AGUIRRE, JOURNALIST, EL PASO, 

TEXAS 

Mr. AGUIRRE. [In English.] Chairman Durbin and Chairman 

Feinstein, members of the Subcommittee, and members of the Caucus, I thank you for inviting me to testify firsthand about some of 

the suffering and death that people who live along the border between the State of Chihuahua and Texas face on a daily basis. 

It must be difficult for you to get an inside view of the belly of 

the beast from here and to understand the devastating corruption 

that devours Ciudad Jua ́ rez, where violence has erased all authority and government from the map and replaced it with a dictatorship of the crime underworld. 

Starting a few months back, the government of Chihuahua allowed the state to be converted into an instrument of organized 

crime. Press freedom is threatened by a terrifying dilemma: ‘‘Plata 

o Plomo,’’ meaning accept a bribe or face a bullet! 

I am exiled from my country and staying in El Paso with my wife 

and three children legally on a temporary visa because of this violence. Thanks to God and the hospitality of this blessed country, 

which really cannot be underestimated, I am still alive. 

The story of my exile began on November 13, 2008, when 

Armando Rodriguez, a friend and journalist at El Diario, was shot 

dead outside his home. That night, when I was driving to 

Armando’s wake in my pickup truck, my cell phone rang. I was at 

a busy intersection and waiting for the light to turn green, so I 

took the call. 

Recalling the conversation still scares me: 

‘‘Jorge Luis Aguirre? ’’ asked a man with an eerie voice. 

‘‘Yes? ’’ I said. 

‘‘You’re next, son of a [expletive deleted]! ’’ yelled the man. 

I almost went into a state of shock. I didn’t know if it was sweat 

or a cold chill that was running through my body. I thought I was 

going to be riddled with bullets right there. 

I looked all around, expecting to see rifles pointing at my head, 

but didn’t see anything. The cars started moving and I accelerated 

41 

too, turning around to head back home. On the way, I called my 

wife and, without giving her any details because I didn’t want her 

to worry, I asked her to pick me up on a quiet road where I would 

be waiting on foot. I told her to bring our sons as well. That night, 

we crossed the border in my wife’s car and thankfully saved our 

lives. 

Weeks later, I confirmed the source of the threats. Victor Valencia, a representative of the Governor of the State of Chihuahua, 

had sent people to warn me to ‘‘tone down’’ my criticisms of the 

Prosecutor, Patricia Gonzalez—I mean Chihuahua’s Attorney General—because if I didn’t, he was going to kill me, using the Jua ́ rez 

drug cartels’ preferred method of kidnapping followed by execution. 

In early December, Victor Valencia called and threatened the 

woman who had passed along his messages before. She is a U.S. 

citizen and lives in El Paso. Valencia told her that Patricia Gonzalez was very upset with me, and that she was going to come after 

her and me in El Paso to kidnap us and murder us in Jua ́ rez. 

For obvious reasons, my return to Jua ́ rez would be a death sentence. I would likely face fire from AK–47s upon crossing the border into Mexico. 

I am sure you are wondering what has happened in Jua ́ rez since 

I received these threats. Nothing. In Mexico, it is an aggravated 

crime to investigate serious political offenses. Those who try to investigate them can lose their jobs or even be executed. 

Impunity rules. There has been no order or government for many 

years now. In the desert, innocent people—women, men, teenagers, 

and children—die, sometimes buried alive. 

Today, I live in exile in a foreign country in order to avoid being 

murdered for my work as a journalist. I left my office, my house, 

my friends, and several years of my life dedicated to work. In contrast, those who persecuted me are still in their government positions, using public money to try to attain their objectives of becoming a representative, mayor of Jua ́ rez, or Governor of Chihuahua. 

On a daily basis, ordinary citizens in Jua ́ rez are condemned to 

die, to be kidnapped, to be assaulted, to suffer extortion, or to be 

exiled at any moment. Who can help them if they are persecuted 

and threatened? Criminals, police, and politicians are often one and 

the same. People are more afraid of the police than of the drug cartels. 

The press has been silenced both by force and through self-censorship. My exile is a taboo subject in Chihuahua. It is not mentioned by legislators, political parties, ombudsmen, or the press. 

The violence in Jua ́ rez crossed the border into the United States 

a long time ago. For this reason, I continue to live in hiding in El 

Paso. Every day, I pray with my wife because God has kept me 

alive. 

Sometimes, I look at the mountains of Jua ́ rez and dream, like 

many people, of a city that is no longer a paradise for drug cartels, 

but a safe and dignified place where I can live with my family. 

God bless America, God bless Mexico, and God bless Ciudad 

Jua ́ rez! Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Aguirre appears as a submission 

for the record.] 

42 

Chairman DURBIN. Mr. Aguirre, thank you very much. It took a 

lot of courage for you to come here today, and we appreciate it. 

Your heartfelt testimony puts a human face on numbers and policies, and I thank you for your courage in being here today. 

We have had a lot of discussion here today about the drugs and 

the demand for drugs in the United States. I thought Attorney 

General Goddard was honest and candid with us about that issue. 

We talked about the cash. I want to speak about the guns for a moment. 

I would like to ask each of you, What does the average Mexican 

think about the role of the United States in supplying all these 

guns to the drug cartels? Do they believe that the United States 

is doing everything that it can to try to lessen this traffic in weapons that is headed into Mexico, giving these drug cartels an arsenal 

of modern weapons, many of them military weapons, that they can 

use to terrorize the people, the innocent people, like Mr. Aguirre 

and others? Professor Dresser? 

Ms. DRESSER. I think that if you asked any Mexican today about 

the role of the U.S. in multiple regards, not only the weapons, the 

response would be, ‘‘You are not doing enough.’’ We are waging a 

war that is demand driven. We are waging a war that we are paying a very high price for. And yet, over the past years, there seems 

to have been very little effort in terms of curbing demand, stopping 

the flow of drugs across the border, dealing with money laundering 

and so on. 

Too frequently, all the blame is placed on Mexico, and it is clear 

that drug trafficking has built upon a country with weak institutions and an infiltrated state. But at the same time, there is a perception that we would not be waging this war were you not one of 

the largest consumers of drugs in the world. 

So I think there is a perception today of a need for the U.S. to 

understand its own responsibilities and own up to them. I think 

Mexicans feel that at every hearing they are deservedly bashed in 

some areas, but that too much blame is placed on Mexico’s shoulders in the context of a country that has many less resources to 

deal with this issue than you do in terms of intelligence, courts, 

law enforcement, that Mexico is struggling to keep up with this 

tidal wave, but that not enough is being done north of the border. 

Chairman DURBIN. Mr. Aguirre, I would like to ask you the same 

question. Since you have been a victim of this violence and these 

threats, how do people in Jua ́ rez and the people that you speak to 

in Mexico view the role of the United States in this whole troubled 

time, whether it is the demand for drugs, the money that is flowing 

back into Mexico, or the weapons flowing into Mexico, or the 

coyotes bringing people illegally into the United States? How do the 

Mexican people view our Nation in this context? 

Mr. AGUIRRE. Excuse my English. I would like to—— 

Chairman DURBIN. No, that is fine. We will rely on your—— 

Mr. AGUIRRE.—speak in Spanish. 

Chairman DURBIN. That is fine. 

The Interpreter. He says that Mexico needs a lot of support from 

the U.S., and people think that it is not enough at the moment. 

And in the State of Chihuahua, there is not an actual government. 

The government of the State of Chihuahua is not actually govVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:42 Jul 06, 2010 Jkt 056913 PO 00000 Frm 00046 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\56913.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC
43 

erning what is going on. And the actions that are taken by Felipe 

Caldero ́n, the President of the nation, are having a huge impact in 

the state, but people want the U.S. to take care that it does not 

get corrupted as well, because usually what happens in these kind 

of situations in Mexico is that one comes and takes off the other, 

but then gets corrupted and does the same. So people want the 

U.S. to take care that it does not happen with the army the same 

that is going on with the local law enforcement. 

And also that the politicians are so corrupted and so—and are 

the same as the cartels, and people wish the politicians to be punished as well. 

Chairman DURBIN. Thank you. 

Senator Feinstein? 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. I would like to thank you both very much 

for testifying. 

Mr. Aguirre, you are a very brave man, and I thank you for that. 

And you have made a friend in me, and anything I can do to help 

you, I certainly will. And I think I could say that for the other 

members of this Committee, the members that are here right now 

and those that are not. 

I have read about you in the newspapers and am just very 

pleased to know that there are people like you in the world. So be 

strong. 

Mr. AGUIRRE. Thank you, ma’am. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. We will take some action. I think there is 

no question that we are at a time of real escalating conflict with 

the Mexican drug cartels. 

Professor Dresser, you are right about the demand problem. We 

are the cause. We have the demand problem, and we need to pay 

attention to that as well. 

It becomes very difficult because the only proposals we are given 

to consider, on the one hand, legalize drugs and, on the other hand, 

keep going the way we are going. For a government, the legalization of narcotics, when you see what they can do to an individual 

and have watched the legalization in other countries, is very difficult. So we are searching for a path there. 

I think the prior panel has been very helpful. Senator Durbin 

has pointed out, I think, some very good steps that we can take, 

and we will look into those and try to take them. But I would hope 

that you would continue to give us your thoughts and your ideas, 

in writing if necessary, or by phone. And, Mr. Aguirre, I would just 

hope that you would stay in contact with us, and any information 

you have to provide us we would be very happy to receive. 

So thank you both very, very much. 

Chairman DURBIN. Thank you, Senator Feinstein. 

Senator Sessions? 

STATEMENT OF HON. JEFF SESSIONS, A U.S. SENATOR FROM 

THE STATE OF ALABAMA 

Senator SESSIONS. Thank you very much, and I just would repeat 

that I am proud of Mexico and that they are beginning to confront 

this systemic problem. It threatens the integrity of the entire Mexican Government. People’s lives are at stake. 

44 

Don’t you think, Mr. Aguirre, that—well, I will ask your opinion. 

How do you feel about Mr. Caldero ́n and the increased effort that 

they are making against the cartels? Wouldn’t you agree that his 

life may be in danger and a lot of other people who are executing 

that, but they are attempting to do so and making some progress? 

Mr. AGUIRRE. [Interpreted from Spanish.] I believe Caldero ́n is 

the first President of Mexico who is trying to make it for our country, and I really hope that he can actually gain back the security 

that criminals have taken off the government—the power that 

criminals have taken off the government. 

I believe, of course, that his life is in danger, as well as all of 

the people that are involved in this drug war, including us journalists that are trying to do our work honestly, and people in general 

that are every day threatened and killed. 

I believe it is a lot of cultural thing, issue, that Mexico has to 

change its point of view about America and see it as an ally rather 

than an enemy, as well as America should see Mexico as a neighbor and an ally instead of a backyard disposal. 

Senator SESSIONS. Well, thank you. I agree with that. I was active in the Mexican-American Interparliamentary for a number of 

years, chaired that for a while, and it got better over the years, but 

I think it was sort of a ‘‘Blame America’’ conference for a while 

there. And we had some really good times and learned some of the 

frustrations that Mexico deals with. But I think we need to get 

away from blame and see how we can work together to be successful in this common effort. 

My personal view, having been a Federal prosecutor that prosecuted international drug-smuggling cases out of Mexico and Colombia and Haiti and all over the world, actually, and having studied the issue some, I believe the best thing we can do is to aggressively prosecute and eliminate the cartel groups that are in the 

United States selling the drugs and collecting the money, sending 

it back to fund these groups. And if they do not get guns from the 

United States, they will get them from their own military. They 

will steal them from other countries. They will buy them on the 

markets out there. 

The problem really is not the guns. It is a part of it. But the real 

problem is that this group is attempting to continue an illegal operation in Mexico, and they will intimidate and kill people who try 

to stop them. And we need to be as helpful as we can be. We sent, 

I think, a billion-plus dollars now to our joint effort. I hope that 

that will be successful. We have a common problem, and we need 

to work together to solve it. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is a very good panel. 

Chairman DURBIN. Thank you, Senator Sessions. 

Those that follow this Committee will not be surprised to know 

that Senator Sessions and I may see issues a little differently. And 

so, for the record, I would like to say guns are a problem. Guns are 

a serious problem. The fact that literally thousands of guns are 

flowing from the United States into Mexico every day is arming 

these drug cartels so that they can kill Mr. Aguirre’s colleague and 

threaten his life and force his family out of the country. 

Senator SESSIONS. I would just say, Mr. Chairman, just in response, there are already guns in Mexico. They can guns from 

45 

South America. They can get them from their own military. American guns are already there. We have a constitutional right in 

America to keep and bear arms, and we are not changing our Constitution. 

Chairman DURBIN. I would just say—— 

Senator SESSIONS. So I just would say that the—why are people 

being killed at such an extraordinary rate across the border in 

Mexico, so much higher, hundreds of times higher than in the 

United States where we have guns, too? 

Chairman DURBIN. May I respond? 

Senator SESSIONS. Yes. 

Chairman DURBIN. I recognize the right of American citizens to 

defend themselves, to use guns legally for sporting and hunting. 

That is part of America’s Constitution as decided by the Supreme 

Court. It is part of the American experience. We are different than 

some other countries. That is the way we see it when it comes to 

firearms. 

That does not allow us to aid and abet criminal conspiracies in 

neighboring countries by shipping thousands of firearms every day 

with impunity. To ignore our laws and policies makes life dangerous for people living south of the border. 

We have a responsibility, and to ignore it by saying, well, if we 

were not irresponsible, somebody else would be irresponsible, is 

cold comfort to people living in a country where 6,000 people were 

killed last year, mainly because of American firearms and the insatiable American appetite for drugs. That is the way I feel. I disagree with the Senator from Alabama, but I wanted to put it on 

the record. 

Senator SESSIONS. I do not think it is all our fault. 

Chairman DURBIN. I never said it was. 

Before I end, I would like to place in the record written statements from the following organizations and individuals: Border 

Network for Human Rights, Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, Conference of Western Attorneys General, International 

Union of Police Associations, Major County Sheriffs, Mexico Institute at the Woodrow Wilson Center, National Association of Police 

Organizations, National District Attorneys Association, National 

Narcotics Officers Association, National Sheriffs Association, Washington Office on Latin America, Houston Police Chief Harold Hurtt, 

and San Diego Police Chief Bill Lansdowne. Without objection, they 

will be included in the record. 

If there are no further comments, I would like to thank those 

who attended. Again, Professor Dresser, thank you for your fine 

testimony. Mr. Aguirre, thank you for your courage in coming here 

today. You have given us a perspective on this issue that we could 

not have from anyone else. 

At this point, this session will stand adjourned. Witnesses may 

receive written questions and will be asked to give prompt replies. 

Thank you. 

[Whereupon, at 1:05 p.m., the Subcommittee and the Caucus 

were adjourned.] 

[Questions and answers and submissions for the record follow.] 

46 


56913.001
47 


56913.002
48 


56913.003
49 


56913.004
50 


56913.005
51 


56913.006
52 


56913.007
53 


56913.008
54 


56913.009
55 


56913.010
56 


56913.011
57 


56913.012
58 


56913.013
59 


56913.014
60 


56913.015
61 


56913.016
62 


56913.017
63 


56913.018
64 


56913.019
65 


56913.020
66 


56913.021
67 


56913.022
68 


56913.023
69 


56913.024
70 


56913.025
71 


56913.026
72 


56913.027
73 


56913.028
74 


56913.029
75 


56913.030
76 


56913.031
77 


56913.032
78 


56913.033
79 


56913.034
80 


56913.035
81 


56913.036
82 


56913.037
83 


56913.038
84 


56913.039
85 


56913.040
86 


56913.041
87 


56913.042
88 


56913.043
89 


56913.044
90 


56913.045
91 


56913.046
92 


56913.047
93 


56913.048
94 


56913.049
95 


56913.050
96 


56913.051
97 


56913.052
98 


56913.053
99 


56913.054
100 


56913.055
101 


56913.056
102 


56913.057
103 


56913.058
104 


56913.059
105 


56913.060
106 


56913.061
107 


56913.062
108 


56913.063
109 


56913.064
110 


56913.065
111 


56913.066
112 


56913.067
113 


56913.068
114 


56913.069
115 


56913.070
116 


56913.071
117 


56913.072
118 


56913.073
119 


56913.074
120 


56913.075
121 


56913.076
122 


56913.077
123 


56913.078
124 


56913.079
125 


56913.080
126 


56913.081
127 


56913.082
128 


56913.083
129 


56913.084
130 


56913.085
131 


56913.086
132 


56913.087
133 


56913.088
134 


56913.089
135 


56913.090
136 


56913.091
137 


56913.092
138 


56913.093
139 


56913.094
140 


56913.095
141 


56913.096
142 


56913.097
143 


56913.098
144 


56913.099
145 


56913.100
146 


56913.101
147 


56913.102
148 


56913.103
149 


56913.104
150 


56913.105
151 


56913.106
152 


56913.107
153 


56913.108
154 


56913.109
155 


56913.110
156 


56913.111
157 


56913.112
158 


56913.113
159 


56913.114
160 


56913.115
161 


56913.116
162 

Æ 


56913.117