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INSPIRING STUDENTS TO FEDERAL SERVICE 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

OVERSIGHT OF GOVERNMENT MANAGEMENT, 

THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE, AND THE 

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA SUBCOMMITTEE 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED TWELFTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

JUNE 21, 2011 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Homeland Security 

and Governmental Affairs 

( 

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(II) 

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas 

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana 

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, Missouri 

JON TESTER, Montana 

MARK BEGICH, Alaska 

SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

SCOTT P. BROWN, Massachusetts 

JOHN MCCAIN, Arizona 

RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin 

ROB PORTMAN, Ohio 

RAND PAUL, Kentucky 

JERRY MORAN, Kansas 

MICHAEL L. ALEXANDER, Staff Director 

NICHOLAS ROSSI, Minority Staff Director 

TRINA DRIESSNACK TYRER, Chief Clerk 

JOYCE WARD, Publications Clerk and GPO Detailee 

OVERSIGHT OF GOVERNMENT MANAGEMENT, THE FEDERAL 

WORKFORCE, AND THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA SUBCOMMITTEE 

DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii, Chairman 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana 

MARK BEGICH, Alaska 

RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

JERRY MORAN, Kansas 

LISA M. POWELL, Staff Director, Majority 

KATA C. SYBENGA, Counsel Majority 

RACHEL WEAVER, Staff Director, Minority 

ALAN ELIAS, Legislatve Assistant Minority 

AARON H. WOOLF, Chief Clerk 

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(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Opening statement: Page 

Senator Akaka .................................................................................................. 1 

WITNESSES 

TUESDAY, JUNE 21, 2011 

Hon. Christine M. Griffin, Deputy Director, U.S. Office of Personnel Management ...................................................................................................................... 3 

Michael C. Kane, Chief Human Capital Officer, U.S. Department of Energy ... 5 

Carolyn M. Taylor, Chief Human Capital Officer, U.S. Government Accountability Office ......................................................................................................... 6 

Timothy McManus, Vice President for Education and Outreach, Partnership 

for Public Service ................................................................................................. 14 

Laurel McFarland, Executive Director, National Association of Schools of 

Public Affairs and Administration ...................................................................... 16 

Anne Mahle, Vice President for Recruitment, Teach for America ....................... 18 

Witold Skwierczynski, President, National Council of Social Security Administration Field Operations Locals, American Federation of Government Employees, AFL–CIO ................................................................................................ 20 

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF WITNESSES

Griffin, Hon. Christine M.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 3 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 31 

Kane, Michael C.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 39 

Mahle, Anne: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 18 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 72 

McFarland, Laurel: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 16 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 67 

McManus, Timothy: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 14 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 55 

Skwierczynski, Witold: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 20 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 79 

Taylor, Carolyn M.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 6 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 44 

APPENDIX 

Questions and responses submitted for the record from: 

Ms. Griffin ......................................................................................................... 87 

Background .............................................................................................................. 90 

Statement for the record from Mr. David Ellwood ............................................... 94 

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INSPIRING STUDENTS TO FEDERAL SERVICE 

TUESDAY JUNE 21, 2011 

U.S. SENATE, SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT OF GOVERNMENT

MANAGEMENT, THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE,

AND THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA,

OF THE COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS,

Washington, DC. 

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:34 p.m., in room 

SD–342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Daniel K. Akaka, 

Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding. 

Present: Senator Akaka. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR AKAKA 

Senator AKAKA. The hearing will come to order. 

Aloha and thank you all for being here today as the Subcommittee examines how the Federal Government could better 

partner with colleges and universities to prepare and recruit students for Federal service. And I would like to recognize interns who 

are attending this hearing and thank you for coming to listen in 

on what we hope you can be a part of in the very, very near future. 

So thank you so much for being here. 

The Federal Government is the largest employer in the United 

States, and Federal service is a noble profession. Within the next 

5 years, the Federal Government is expected to face one of the largest retirement waves in the Nation’s history, making the development of a new generation of workers even more vital. 

In today’s economy, many students are graduating only to find 

that they are locked out of a market that is not producing enough 

jobs. At the same time, the Federal Government has jobs that are 

mission critical and difficult to fill. There simply are not enough 

graduates to fill critical jobs in many scientific, technical, national 

security, and medical fields. We must develop innovative strategies 

to bridge this gap. We should not look at this solely as a challenge. 

This creates a unique opportunity for universities to place graduates in good jobs if we can make students aware the opportunities 

exist and prepare them to fill those jobs. 

We need to continue to build stronger relationships between 

agencies and universities to help foster academic programs that 

prepare students for Federal service, especially for difficult-to-fill 

positions. I believe that, working together, we can maximize our recruitment efforts to address critical hiring needs while also creating direct pipelines for students into the agencies. 

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As part of this effort, we must continue to work to improve the 

broken Federal hiring process. This Subcommittee has focused on 

reforming the Federal hiring process. Since 2008, we have held 

three hearings on the issue and worked closely with the administration on its reform efforts. Additionally, I introduced the Federal 

Hiring Process Improvement Act last Congress with Senator 

Voinovich. I intend to continue that effort this year. 

The Administration has been making some good progress, but we 

still hear stories of talented individuals who seek employment with 

the Federal Government, only to grow frustrated with the archaic 

hiring process and find work elsewhere. In the past, I believe there 

has been too much focus on creating exceptions to the competitive 

hiring process for recent graduates rather than making sure the 

competitive process works for them. 

I strongly believe the competitive hiring process can serve as an 

effective avenue for bringing recent college graduates into the 

workforce. The competitive hiring process serves as our most effective tool to ensure that the Federal workforce is composed of the 

most qualified and able individuals, who are appointed only after 

competing in a fair and open process that is free from political interference. 

As the President stressed when he issued his Executive Order 

last December on Recruiting and Hiring Students and Recent 

Graduates, the Federal Government benefits from a diverse workforce that includes the enthusiasm and perspectives of students 

and recent graduates. Once we recruit students and recent graduates, we must harness their enthusiasm and talents through focused training and development. 

One program I am particularly proud of is the Pearl Harbor 

Naval Shipyard apprenticeship program, which attracts thousands 

of applicants for 125 to 150 positions each year. The apprentices 

learn a trade and earn an associate’s degree from the Honolulu 

Community College through this 4-year, paid work-study program. 

I am so glad to have each of our witnesses here today representing both the public and private sectors. Each one of you 

brings a different and valuable perspective to this discussion. I look 

forward to hearing from each of you today and also continuing to 

work with you to ensure our next generation of Federal workers 

will be ready to lead. 

I welcome our first panel of witnesses to the Subcommittee: 

Christine Griffin, Deputy Director of the Office of Personnel Management (OPM); Michael Kane, Chief Human Capital Officer 

(CHCO) at the Department of Energy (DOE); and Ms. Carolyn Taylor, Chief Human Capital Officer at the Government Accountability 

Office (GAO). 

As you know, it is the custom of this Subcommittee to swear in 

all witnesses, so please raise your right hand. Do you swear that 

the testimony you are about to give before this Subcommittee is the 

truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, 

God? 

Ms. GRIFFIN. I do. 

Mr. KANE. I do. 

Ms. TAYLOR. I do. 

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1The prepared statement of Ms. Griffin appears in the appendix on page 31. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Let it be noted for the record that 

the witnesses answered in the affirmative. 

Before we start, I want you to know that your full written statements will be made part of the record, and I would like to remind 

you to please limit your oral remarks to 5 minutes. 

Ms. Griffin, will you please proceed with your statement? 

STATEMENT OF THE HON. CHRISTINE M. GRIFFIN,1 DEPUTY 

DIRECTOR, U.S. OFFICE OF PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT 

Ms. GRIFFIN. Thank you, Senator Akaka, and it is great to see 

you back in action and well. 

Senator AKAKA. Good to be here. Thank you. 

Ms. GRIFFIN. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today regarding the Office of Personnel Management’s efforts to improve 

the way the Federal Government recruits and hires students. We 

are excited about all of the hiring reform measures that we are 

taking at OPM, both as an employer and as the Federal Government’s H.R. adviser. 

Hiring reform has several major components, all of which, in one 

way or another, create opportunities to improve Federal employment options. Essay-style questions have been eliminated from the 

initial application, and job seekers can apply for a Federal job with 

just a resume and a cover letter. Supervisors and managers are 

more involved in the hiring process, and they are held accountable 

for the quality of their hires and for supporting a successful transition of new employees into the Federal service. Once we get them, 

we need to keep them. 

I am pleased to tell you that we recently launched 

USAJOBSRecruit. This is a one-stop recruiting site for Federal 

agencies that providing information, tools, and guidance on recruitment as well as provides an opportunity for agencies to collaborate 

with one another through the use of discussion forums and blogs. 

Additionally, through USAJOBSRecruit, there is a new tool 

called the School Sorter. This allows agencies to sift through applicants by the type of university they attended. The School Sorter 

provides data in educational resources covering a full range of postsecondary institutions across the country, including over 7,000 colleges and universities. Users can share recruiting experiences, and 

they can search schools based on available majors and degrees, 

much like the ones you discussed, that are difficult to find or to fill 

Federal jobs with. Also, we can sort by historical commitment to 

serving diverse populations in promoting Federal service to their 

students. 

The Student Pathways Programs are another major component 

of hiring reform. It establishes clear paths to Federal internships 

for students from high school through postgraduate level and to careers for recent graduates. This program requires agencies to invest in meaningful training and career development for individuals 

at the beginning of their Federal careers. 

The three programs included in the Pathways framework are: An 

internship program, a Recent Graduates Program, and a reinvigorated Presidential Management Fellows (PMF) program. We expect 

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to issue proposed regulations for public comment sometime later 

this summer. 

OPM also conducts extensive outreach to students in educational 

institutions with a particular emphasis on enhancing diversity 

within the overall Federal workforce. For example, OPM employees 

go directly to historically black colleges and universities and Hispanic colleges and universities to conduct training on how to apply 

for Federal internships or jobs. In the last few months, I personally 

have gone to the University of Texas-San Antonio, L.A., and San 

Diego to speak directly with students and university representatives to explain the opportunities for Federal internships and careers. I will be in Cincinnati next week doing exactly the same at 

the LULAC conference. 

OPM, in collaboration with the Partnership for Public Service, 

helps educate a new generation of leaders about the importance 

and value of public service with the Call to Serve Initiative. This 

initiative reaches more than 700 schools and more than 75 Federal 

agencies, and right now we are planning to invite the hundreds 

and hundreds of Federal interns here in D.C. this summer to a 

briefing at OPM on Student Pathways so that when they return to 

their schools they can begin spreading the word. And, actually, a 

lot of the interns that are here today are involved in actually developing that briefing for their fellow interns through our government. 

In addition to our efforts to spearhead the Pathways Program 

Framework governmentwide, we are also working to enhance our 

own internal agency programs for student interns and Presidential 

Management Fellows. We have long recognized that the PMF program offers an excellent source of talented individuals who have already been recruited and vigorously assessed by OPM. 

You are a leader in this area, Mr. Chairman, and especially in 

the area of mentoring and supervisory training. We know that emphasizing the importance of supervisory training makes it clear 

that supervisory skills are valued in their own right, and the opportunity to become a supervisor or a manager is not merely a reward for achievements unrelated to one’s potential as a supervisor. 

So we recognize the importance of training as we published in our 

regulations for supervisors that every 3 years they should know 

about mentoring employees, improving employees’ performance, 

conducting performance appraisals, and assisting employees in addressing unacceptable performance. We know that good mentoring 

is an integral part of developing and retaining a diverse workforce. 

Thank you again. I will be happy to respond to any questions you 

have. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, thank you very much for your statement, 

and it is good to hear what you are doing, so thank you very much, 

Ms. Griffin. 

Mr. Kane, please proceed with your statement. 

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1The prepared statement of Mr. Kane appears in the appendix on page 39. 

STATEMENT OF MICHAEL C. KANE,1 CHIEF HUMAN CAPITAL 

OFFICER, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 

Mr. KANE. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for the opportunity to appear before you today. We at the Department are particularly proud to be here and discuss our recruitment programs 

and, notably, what we are doing in the area of student Ambassadors, which furthers the competitive process and gives focus to 

those individuals of talent who want to pursue Federal service. 

In the strategy, we looked at how the Department was recruiting. Specifically, we have 15,000 Federal employees. We have 18 

servicing personnel offices, and they are spread throughout both 

rural and highly metropolitan areas. 

When we looked at those offices, we discovered that they had tremendous local outreach. They did a very good job with local universities in and around our facilities and our laboratories in highly 

technical hiring environments where there were skill sets that we 

needed. However, just as you discussed, bringing the best and the 

brightest means reaching beyond those boundaries. It means 

broadening the view from just a job to a career, to a lifelong commitment. 

So we studied where we were holding job interviews, where we 

were addressing student employment, and we found that although 

we did something on the order of 182 job fairs and events throughout the year, they were split: 40 percent of them in the West, about 

25 to 27 percent in the Midwest, and then the remaining 20 on the 

east coast. And we were drawing what I call geographically related 

recruitment from them. We needed to broaden that activity. 

We also needed to address the fact that OPM and the entire reform effort connected with USAJOBS gave students a wider window. That window opened them up to endless job possibilities, but 

they needed help and assistance to look at how those job opportunities translated into their specific condition. 

We focused on establishing, back in 2009 and 2010, six positions 

called student Ambassadors. The intent was to put these students 

who had worked for us, who came from diverse program backgrounds—they were graduate and undergraduate students, engineering students, business students, international affairs students—out as our Ambassadors, providing peer-to-peer, student-tostudent discussion about what it was like to work in the Department of Energy, what it was like for the Federal Government. So 

that behind USAJOBS and all the ability it gave students to locate 

jobs, they could talk about careers; they could talk about meaning; 

they could talk about the things that are important to the new generation: Commitment, the chance to make a difference, lifestyle 

changes. And the students themselves, using USAJOBS and using 

that knowledge, could look beyond just competing for a local job 

and ask where is the career path, how can I navigate that path, 

if I need more information how can I find it. 

So what we had were people who were located on the college 

campuses, working with the professors, and here is the key factor 

to me. Those six people by the end of a 7-month rotation, basically 

the school semester year, had brought about contacts with over 71 

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1The prepared statement of Ms. Taylor appears in the appendix on page 44. 

faculty. Now, those students may graduate and move on, but that 

bridge that they have created to mine the talent that is there, to 

refer it, is continual. It is a renewable resource for us. And so we 

believe the student Ambassadors are an excellent way to complement the electronic world that we live in. Whether we are 

tweeting or texting, we have the ability for students and faculty to 

find somebody who can tell them what we are really like, who can 

talk about our values, can talk about our training opportunities, 

can talk about the career paths in a language they understand, and 

they can tell us more directly what is working in our recruitment 

and what is not. 

I thank you very much for that opportunity. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Mr. Kane, for your statement. It is good to hear what you are doing in helping students become future employees. 

Ms. Taylor, will you please proceed with your statement? 

STATEMENT OF CAROLYN M. TAYLOR,1 CHIEF HUMAN CAPITAL OFFICER, U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE 

Ms. TAYLOR. Thank you. Chairman Akaka, thank you for the opportunity to be here today to discuss GAO’s campus recruitment 

program. As an organization committed to having a high-performing diverse workforce, we place great importance on attracting, 

hiring, training, and retaining employees with the skills needed to 

support GAO’s mission to serve Congress and the American public. 

While our future hiring will be shaped by the budget environment, 

over the past 5 years we have hired about 300 employees each 

year, mostly at the entry level, for our analyst and analyst-related 

positions. Also over this time period, we have had a very robust 

student intern program. 

Having a strong campus recruitment program has played a key 

role in attracting highly qualified candidates. Today I am going to 

focus my remarks on our campus recruitment program, our recent 

efforts to enhance that program, and other programs and policies 

we have in place to support and help new staff. 

Now, GAO’s campus recruitment program began about a decade 

ago. We use senior executives and staff from across the agency to 

develop and maintain relationships with many colleges and universities across the country. Our relationship building has been primarily based on campus visits to recruit both our candidates for 

entry-level as well as for intern positions. 

In addition to these visits, each year since 2001 we have convened an Educators’ Advisory Panel. This panel includes deans and 

professors from various colleges and universities. Through this 

panel we have obtained advice and provided feedback about ways 

schools can refine and strengthen their curricula to make their 

graduates more successful at GAO. 

To supplement our campus-related efforts, we outreach to various professional organizations and groups and attend their conferences and make presentations. We also invite them to come to 

GAO to talk to our staff as well. This approach has been really 

very effective. Our brand recognition has grown tremendously, and 

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we get thousands of highly qualified candidates for each of our 

openings. 

However, it is a 10-year-old approach. As part of our effort to 

focus more attention on strategic human capital management and 

to be consistent with our recommendations to other agencies, we 

have taken actions to enhance that approach. We established 

stronger linkages between our recruitment efforts and our workers’ 

planning needs, and we set recruitment priorities based on data 

and recent evaluation from our program outputs. 

Additionally, given the important role our recruiters are playing, 

we have taken steps to make sure we have a well-trained and diverse recruitment cadre. Also, we have instituted a number of institutional changes and administrative changes to make the program more efficient. 

Along with our efforts to recruit and hire high-quality, diverse 

staff, we have other programs in place to support staff once they 

arrive at GAO. This support comes primarily from our 2-year professional development program. This program helps new staff learn 

about our core values, how we do our work, and the standards by 

which they will be assessed. 

Each new employee is assigned an adviser, and each employee 

participates in many, many hours of training, both classroom and 

on the job. New employees receive formal feedback every 3 months 

and formal performance appraisals every 6 months to help them 

develop and improve their skills and competencies. 

In addition to our professional development program, the involvement of our senior leaders and other policies have been really helpful to help employees adjust to GAO. For example, our leaders 

often participate in the new hire orientation. Our agency head, the 

Comptroller General, meets with our new employees. And most of 

our senior executives take an active role in some way or the other 

in the development opportunities that are provided for new staff. 

New employees can participate in our mentoring program, and 

we have policies in place to help foster an inclusive and supportive 

work environment to help all staff balance work and life, including 

flexible schedules and telework. 

We think these practices, policies, and programs have contributed to employees’ decisions to stay. About 90 percent of the employees that we hired in 2008 are still with us today. 

Finally, feedback from our new employees shows really high levels of job satisfaction. This positive feedback has contributed to 

GAO being named as the second best place to work in the government in 2009 as well as in 2010. 

This concludes my prepared remarks. I will be very glad to answer any questions that you may have, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Ms. Taylor, for your testimony here and your statement. 

Ms. TAYLOR. You are welcome. 

Senator AKAKA. Let me ask my first question to Ms. Griffin. 

Many companies that are successful in recruiting top talent require 

senior executives to devote time to recruiting and developing the 

workforce. What steps is OPM taking to engage senior leadership 

and focus their attention on recruiting and cultivating top talent? 

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Ms. GRIFFIN. Well, some of the initiatives that we have taken 

through the hiring reform agenda are getting managers more involved in the whole process, more involved in the recruiting, more 

involved in really the very beginning of the decision about what is 

needed, who is needed, and then getting them to take more ownership of the whole hiring process. 

OPM works closely with the Chief Human Capital Officers, 

Council, and I am sure Mr. Kane can attest to the numerous discussions that we have about this very issue. And in addition to 

that, one of the things that we are implementing at OPM and we 

hope to share with the rest of the government as we get better at 

doing it ourselves is a mentoring program. 

So there are a number of things that we are doing, but we are 

saying to senior executives and to managers overall, and to supervisors, that to get good-quality folks, you need to be involved in 

every aspect of the process. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, thank you very much, Ms. Griffin. 

Mr. Kane, understanding which strategies work and which do 

not and adapting accordingly are important parts of a successful 

recruiting program. To do this well, you must collect the right data 

and have metrics in place. 

How are you evaluating and adapting your hiring strategies? 

Mr. KANE. Mr. Chairman, we are looking at an number of factors. We look at the number of recruits that we have from certain 

universities in certain areas. We look at how many outreach activities occur by using tools like USAJOBS, for example, to hire, we 

are looking at the number of applicants that come through to us, 

identifying that they have an interest in employment, whether they 

file an application or not. We do that through a series of centralized tools. We do that so that we can track where the interest 

comes from and then localize our efforts at those schools. 

I talked a little bit about the Ambassadors program. That is one 

of the things they do. If you look at the number of events they get 

involved in, it is tremendous. So they might result in 80,000 hits 

in terms of applications, requests for information, printed or otherwise, or just online conversations about employment. Now, that is 

a tremendous amount of information. 

What we need to know more specifically is: Are they finding the 

right jobs? Are they getting to our executives to talk about what 

those jobs really are? Are they able to understand where our jobs 

and careers might result in lifestyle behaviors or changes that they 

want to have? Do they want to go on to graduate school? Do they 

want to go on to a Ph.D.? Do they like living in the desert? Are 

they thinking about a family and looking at a career path that will 

keep them in one place for a long period? Or are they looking to 

be involved in international work and want to travel overseas? 

So we use USAJOBS and we use our Jobs One portal, particularly that automated information, to allow us to focus in on how 

well we are recruiting. Then we use the Ambassadors to focus in 

on how are we connecting. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Mr. Kane. 

Ms. Christine Griffin, OPM has led extensive workforce planning 

to address the governmentwide shortage of veterinarians after this 

Subcommittee held a hearing on that issue. There are also shortH605-41331-79W7 with DISTILLER

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ages of qualified professionals in other areas, including many scientific, technical, and medical fields. Colleges would be eager to 

place their graduates in many of these positions, but they may 

need better information about what training is needed and how 

their students can get hired. 

My question is: How can the Federal Government better work 

with schools to build pipelines into these difficult-to-fill, critical positions? 

Ms. GRIFFIN. There is no doubt that we need to do a better job 

of actually working with not only our folks at OPM that go out and 

do the recruiting, but also with the other agencies and helping 

them develop any of the skills and tools they need to have access 

to the right colleges and universities as well as access to the folks 

that they can work with to educate the students about the opportunities that exist in the government, and at what agencies in particular. 

We know that our refresh of the USAJOBS is a way of helping 

them do that, and the tool that I talked about, the 

USAJOBSRecruit, is a very recent tool—I think we only implemented it about a month ago—that will allow agencies to find 

schools specifically with the students that are getting the skills 

that they need in their agencies, and then they can go directly to 

those schools. They can develop relationships with the folks at 

those schools. 

So we are using technology and developing better ways of using 

technology to help the agencies actually recruit the folks that they 

need. 

In addition to that, there are other mechanisms by which we can 

help them do that, and agencies from time to time do come and ask 

us to help them develop particular registers and things like that 

of types of occupations that will help them hire people more expediently into the workforce. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. 

Ms. Taylor, your statement notes that GAO provides feedback to 

schools on how they can refine and strengthen their curricula to 

make their graduates more successful. I would like to hear your 

thoughts on what more the Federal Government could do to provide schools guidance on the skills the Federal Government needs 

and how schools can prepare their students to be successful Federal job candidates? 

Ms. TAYLOR. I would say first that we have been working with 

our universities since 2001, a lot of the deans and professors, and 

we have pretty much tailored our feedback to them to fit the job 

areas and the competencies that we need, and so our feedback to 

them has been more directed in that regard. 

And if I were to give some guidance or suggestions to some of the 

other agencies, I think we have to start with each agency’s specific 

mission and focus and have them look for those organizations and 

schools that help them meet their needs and focus specifically on 

their agencies’ key competencies. So it has to sort of be tailored to 

the individual agency. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. 

Ms. Griffin, historically, the competitive hiring process was the 

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10 

eral Career Intern Program grew so dramatically that most entrylevel hires were made through that program. I repeatedly raised 

concerns that using the intern program as the general hiring authority undermined veterans’ preference and merit principles. I 

want to thank the Administration for phasing that program out. 

How will you make sure that the new Student Pathways Programs do not again become a substitute for the competitive hiring 

process? 

Ms. GRIFFIN. One of the ways we can do that, Senator, is actually 

by providing more oversight of that program. It is something that 

we have discussed with all of the Chief Human Capital Officers. It 

is something that we have discussed with the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) as well, and we will be seeking to have 

progress reviews and updates on how the program is going on a 

continuous basis so that we never find ourselves in that situation 

again. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, Ms. Griffin, President Obama issued the 

Student Pathways Executive Order last December, but OPM has 

yet to release draft regulations to establish the new Pathways Programs. What is the cause of the delay? And when do you expect 

the draft regulations to be released? 

Ms. GRIFFIN. Well, I am happy to report that they are complete. 

They are going out for agency comment. They will be available for 

public comment later this summer, so they are actually finished to 

the point where they are releasable to get comment, and we are in 

that process right now. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, that is timely, and it will certainly help 

our cause here. 

Mr. Kane, what are your thoughts on the Student Pathways Executive Order? And how will these new programs impact your 

agency’s student recruitment strategies? 

Mr. KANE. Pathways is certainly a critical piece of our recruitment programs. It has been in the past. What you look at with the 

Department of Energy is the fact that we do have a large number 

of highly specialized skills sets-—nuclear engineering, environmental engineering, power transmission—and one of the things 

that the Pathways Program and others like it does is give us the 

ability to start working with students early on and to encourage 

those students to use internships, use viable, competitive methods 

coming straight out of school. 

We also look at the Pathways Program as an opportunity for us 

to diversify our recruitment efforts. I talked a little bit about the 

things that we have been doing to try to broaden the recruitment 

so that we get what I call geographic harmony, where we do not 

hire from all one local area. 

Pathways does that because it brings a whole large set of students into play. It provides an opportunity that other competitive 

means do not. That is not to say that we do not do a lot of competitive hiring. We do, from straight up, very specialized jobs. What we 

really want to do is get young individuals in and help them grow 

in their career path, bring them out in undergraduate school, bring 

them in and encourage them to go back to school, and change the 

direction of where they are going. They might come out a nuclear 

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11 

aging budgets and costs if they are going to work for the government. So they go back and get an MBA. 

Pathways and programs like that provide that orientation. They 

provide that focus. So they are extremely valuable to us. They are 

much needed. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, thank you very much for that. I have complimented and praised our military because, as they rise in rank, 

people do not realize how much training and education they go 

through so that they can deal with their troops and whatever mission they will be facing, which changes. And so they have constant 

education so that they are very, very well educated, and so in a 

sense we need that in the other departments as well. 

Mr. KANE. And we need to provide that continuity so that those 

uniformed service members coming out who want to continue to 

serve their country can take that highly specialized training that 

they have, marry that with academic credentials, and continue to 

evolve. Pathways is one way to do that. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. Kane, some students considering Federal 

jobs are deterred by the complicated Federal hiring process. We 

have been working on that, all of us. OPM has made progress on 

reforming the hiring process, and as Ms. Griffin testified, OPM is 

also working to provide students with information to help them 

through this process. 

How do you make sure your recruiters on campus have the training and ability they need not only to recruit students but also to 

help them navigate the Federal hiring process? 

Mr. KANE. We actually train them on how the process works, 

what the good points and the bad points of an automated filing 

process are, how to go through looking at a job and aiding a student in deciphering that job, read what is there. 

One thing that I think is very important to do with students in 

particular is to help them understand where they are in the process and what they are looking for. I talked about the student Ambassadors. That is a critical link for us in doing that because they 

have actually worked, they have spent a summer or longer working 

inside our buildings, inside our plants. They know the difference. 

They can tell somebody if you are looking to do hands-on work, you 

do not want to go to Washington. Washington worries about management and budgets and vision and direction. If you want to do 

hands-on engineering, you want to be in Los Alamos, in New Mexico. That is one example of what they can do. They can focus in 

on where the work is and help the students translate where the 

best opportunity for them at that point is. 

So I think that is invaluable. We cannot use all the tools as just 

a way of getting people in. We have to keep the human touch there. 

We have to have that quality touch. It is old-fashioned HR. I am 

going to talk to you. I am going to sell you on my job and why this 

is important. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. 

Ms. Taylor, I know that you have stressed the importance of 

keeping strong relationships with universities, but in this current 

budgetary climate, many agencies are not hiring. How is GAO engaged with universities to continue to strengthen relationships on 

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12 

campus in this current climate? And do you think these efforts 

have been successful? 

Ms. TAYLOR. We are revising our campus recruitment approach. 

We are not going to visit as many campuses as we have in the 

past. It is just financially not efficient for us to do that. We are 

going to maintain our relationships through a variety of ways. We 

have lots of information that we share, that we can give them. We 

have our senior executives we call our campus executives, and each 

campus executive has probably one or two colleges that they stay 

in contact with, with that personal touch, as Mr. Kane mentioned. 

They will call and periodically talk about what is happening in 

GAO and talk about our announcements. We will invite some of the 

students and the colleges to come to GAO, particularly those who 

are coming to Washington. Many of them have a Washington semester or a Washington visit. We will invite them to visit there. 

But we have readjusted our focus. We have what we call sort of 

a three-pronged approach. We are going to continue to visit a few 

schools. For most of our schools, we are going to have what we call 

a hybrid approach—some visits but more virtual information sharing—and then many others where we are just sharing information 

electronically. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, here is my final question, and this is for 

the panel. For internship programs to succeed, they must not only 

meet agency needs, but also provide career development and training for participants that prepare them for a career in Federal service. 

How do you make sure your internship programs provide students the opportunities they need to identify and prepare for careers at your agency or other Federal agencies? Ms. Griffin. 

Ms. GRIFFIN. Well, one of the things that is actually discussed 

within the confines of the Pathways Program is that we as a government have to do a much better job of actually developing programs for students when they come in, everything from having an 

active program that teaches them about the opportunities within 

the Federal Government, within your agency in particular, making 

sure that they are exposed to all aspects of what a government job 

entails and what a career in the Federal Government can entail. 

And that could be everything from having, a speaker series where 

different people in different parts of the agencies actually talk to 

them and explain what their career path has been like and what 

led them to where they are, to very good advice from our own folks 

at OPM about how to develop a good resume, how to really apply 

for Federal jobs, how to navigate all the different systems that are 

involved. 

I know that we are very active in not only doing that, but helping other agencies, reaching out to other agencies and helping them 

develop those same types of programs. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. Kane. 

Mr. KANE. I could follow on with almost exactly what Christine 

had to say, but there is one other key piece that we as leaders have 

to do. We have to protect that budget authority and make sure it 

stays stable. So to provide those speaker series, to enter into rotational assignments, it involves temporary duty assignment and 

travel for these students and for new employees, for putting them 

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13 

on work teams where they are coached and where they get mentoring, technical or otherwise, the formal course work that we require them to do. 

They have to know that when they develop those plans with 

their supervisors, two things are going to happen: 

First, that plan is going to be respected; it is going to be honored. 

And when they leave and come back, they are going to fit back into 

their job, and they are going to have work to do, not the fear that 

if I am gone, something is going to get moved to somebody else. 

That is the first piece. 

The second piece, they can look at that agency budget and know 

that funding is being protected so that they are assured that the 

resources are there for that commitment we have made to them. 

Senator AKAKA. Ms. Taylor. 

Ms. TAYLOR. For the most part, our internship program has been 

a summer program, so we have candidates in GAO for, 3 or 4 

months in the summer. We treat them like full members of the 

GAO team. We bring them in. We assign them a buddy, sort of a 

semi-mentor—but it is usually a young person as well—to help 

them understand GAO right from the beginning. 

We have a few days of training that we ask them to participate 

in, and we incorporate them, again, as a full member of the team. 

We have set up various activities throughout the summer, a speaker series as well. We invite them to many of the engagement meetings. We bring them to the Hill for opportunities to understand 

that part of our work as well. 

The performance management piece is important, too, so we start 

with, clear expectations and we give them feedback. And at the end 

of their session, we give them an appraisal and let them know 

what we thought about their performance. 

Most of our interns at the end of the summer are given an opportunity to return. Many—about 70 percent—are given offers later 

on, assuming we have the budget authority and the staff year. But 

we have been refining our internship program for a while, and it 

has been really, really an excellent program for us. We value those 

students quite a lot. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, I thank you very much for your valuable 

testimony this afternoon. As I mentioned, our Nation for the first 

time in history is facing a large retirement wave that is coming, 

and you have reported some of your activities in trying to deal with 

this wave. And just like the way they surf in Hawaii, we want to 

take advantage and even use it wisely as an opportunity to get a 

good ride. [Laughter.] 

So let us look forward to that and continue to try to look for the 

best ways of not only recruiting but maintaining and sustaining 

and keeping well-qualified, well-educated employees for our Federal Government. It is in our hands. 

Thank you for being together, and we will work hard to bring 

that about. Thank you very much. 

I would now ask our second panel of witnesses to please come 

forward. On our second panel this afternoon, we have Mr. Tim 

McManus, Vice President for Education and Outreach at the Partnership for Public Service. 

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1The prepared statement of Mr. McManus appears in the appendix on page 55. 

We have Ms. Laurel McFarland, Executive Director of the National Association of Schools of Public Affairs and Administration; 

Ms. Anne Mahle, Vice President for Recruitment at Teach for 

America (TFA); and Mr. Witold Skwierczynski. 

Mr. SKWIERCZYNSKI. Good. W is like V, CZ is like CH. 

Skwierczynski. You did good, though. 

Senator AKAKA. He is the President of the National Council of 

Social Security Administration Field Operations Locals at the 

American Federation of Government Employees. 

Welcome to all of you, and it is the custom of this Subcommittee 

to swear in all witnesses, and I would like to ask all of you to 

please stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear 

that the testimony you are about to give this Subcommittee is the 

truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, 

God? 

Mr. MCMANUS. I do. 

Ms. MCFARLAND. I do. 

Ms. MAHLE. I do. 

Mr. SKWIERCZYNSKI. I do. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Let it be noted for the record that 

the witnesses answered in the affirmative. 

Let me also remind all of you that although your written statement will be included in the record, your oral statement is limited 

to 5 minutes. Your full written statements will be included. 

Mr. McManus, will you please proceed with your statement? 

STATEMENT OF TIMOTHY MCMANUS,1 VICE PRESIDENT FOR 

EDUCATION AND OUTREACH, PARTNERSHIP FOR PUBLIC 

SERVICE 

Mr. MCMANUS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As Vice President for 

Education and Outreach at the Partnership for Public Service, I 

lead the Partnership’s efforts to inspire top talent, including the 

Call to Serve Initiative—which you heard Christine Griffin talk 

briefly about—a joint initiative between the Partnership and the 

Office of Personnel Management. That initiative is now a vibrant 

network of more than 750 colleges and universities across the country and is the only group of colleges and universities dedicated specifically and exclusively to promoting Federal opportunities to students. 

This is a critical time for this hearing. The challenge of inspiring 

students, particularly those in mission-critical fields, is greater 

than ever before. As we reported in our Where the Jobs Are report, 

there is a tremendous need for mission-critical talent across government, many of which are also the same hard-to-fill occupations 

in the private sector. 

Budget constraints are also requiring us to look at new cost-effective ways to effectively bring colleges and universities and Federal 

agencies together to recruit top talent. Finally, with 

antigovernment sentiment and Fed bashing on the rise, we believe 

that the Federal Government may lose its competitive edge that it 

has worked so hard to gain over the last several years. 

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I want to commend the Administration and the Office of Personnel Management for its attention to hiring reform and to creating new pathways for student employment, particularly through 

the Presidential Memo on Improving the Federal Recruitment and 

Hiring Process and the Executive Order on Recruiting and Hiring 

Students and Recent Graduates. I also want to applaud the Subcommittee for its attention to these important issues. 

The bottom line, however, is that the only way we are going to 

see change happen is if agency leadership makes recruiting and 

hiring a priority. This Subcommittee should do whatever it can to 

ensure that leaders pay attention to these issues and hold them accountable for improvement. 

One way to do this would be to require that talent recruitment 

and management be incorporated into performance reviews for all 

career and non-career Senior Executive Service (SES). In addition, 

OPM now requires that agencies collect data on three specific 

measures related to hiring effectiveness: Time to hire, manager satisfaction with the quality of applicants, and applicant satisfaction 

with the process. 

Congress in its oversight function needs to hold agency leadership accountable for these measures and broader talent issues at 

every turn. 

We also know this Subcommittee is interested in ways that agencies can work better with universities to build critical pipelines of 

talent. I would like to share five recommendations based largely on 

our experience with the Call to Serve initiative. 

First, agencies may be limited in their ability to hire at the moment, but should continue to have an on-campus presence even if 

they are not actively filling jobs. If not, they risk losing all the hard 

work and the relationships they have built up over the years. 

Second, the Partnership’s research has shown that peers are an 

important source of career advice and inspiration. We agree with 

Mr. Kane that agencies should follow the lead of the Department 

of Energy and the Department of Housing and Urban Development 

(HUD) and take advantage of peer recruiting opportunities by establishing their own student ambassador programs, as the Partnership has advocated for in the past. 

Third, agencies and universities should take full advantage of 

the Intergovernmental Personnel Act, which provides for temporary 

exchanges between the Federal Government and colleges and universities, thereby more closely linking faculty and Federal agencies. 

Fourth, scholarship and loan repayment programs should target 

individuals pursuing mission-critical fields in the Federal Government. Congress, in particular, should review current Federal scholarship and fellowship programs to better understand how the resources are being used, to consolidate duplicative programs and infrastructure, and to ensure that money is being used to strategically recruit critical talent to the Federal Government. 

Last, agencies should see internship programs as a way to build 

long-term pipelines for entry-level talent. Internships are a vital 

component of the new Pathways Program, but Congress should also 

require that agencies collect metrics on the quality of the intern experiences through exit surveys. In addition, recognizing that there 

is no better way to assess candidates than direct, on-the-job obserH605-41331-79W7 with DISTILLER

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1The prepared statement of Ms. McFarland appears in the appendix on page 67. 

vation, Congress should promote the notion of internships serving 

as a competitive examination for future Federal employment. 

The Partnership looks forward to continuing to work with you, 

the Subcommittee, your staff, agencies, and OPM on these issues. 

Again, Mr. Chairman, thank you for your time and your attention, 

I am happy to answer any questions. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Mr. McManus, for your 

statement. 

Ms. McFarland, will you please proceed with your statement? 

STATEMENT OF LAUREL MCFARLAND,1 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF SCHOOLS OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS AND ADMINISTRATION 

Ms. MCFARLAND. Thank you. I serve as the Executive Director 

of the National Association of Schools of Public Affairs and Administration (NASPAA), an organization of 275 graduate schools across 

the country, including the University of Hawaii, which have been 

committed to inspiring students to Federal service for more than 

four decades. 

Our member schools annually confer over 10,000 Master of Public Administration (MPA), Master of Public Policy (MPP), and related degrees, and NASPAA is the accreditor of graduate programs 

in these fields. 

More than 30 years ago, NASPAA helped OPM and the Federal 

agencies create the Presidential Management Fellowship program 

to attract the very best from our Nation’s graduate schools. Unfortunately, while ‘‘excepted’’ hiring programs such as the PMF have 

been effective in attracting capable grad students to Federal service, there is overwhelming evidence in recent years that the existing competitive hiring system simply does not work for graduate 

students. Our data show that graduate students applying for Federal positions often have advanced training and cutting-edge skills, 

but little full-time work experience, especially in Federal employment. Applicants with this combination rarely get selected through 

USAJOBS. 

Fortunately, the President and OPM have recognized this problem and addressed it directly in the Pathways Executive Order 

signed in December. NASPAA applauds the President’s and OPM’s 

vision and courage. Now we need to make the Executive Order 

stick. This is a watershed moment for the Federal workforce. We 

can implement a half-hearted, skeletal set of Pathways Programs, 

or we can make this a serious downpayment on high-performance 

government. And we know that hiring graduate students with the 

critical skills can do that. If we fail to do this, we put the entire 

future capability of the government at risk. 

Students are vital in critical, hard-to-hire areas, and they represent the future leadership and management of the civil service. 

Moreover, our graduates have been trained to address public policy 

problems that are growing more complex, wicked, and global by the 

day. 

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So how do we convince these graduate students we need so much 

to consider Federal service? I have three recommendations, and 

Congress can play a critical role in each. 

First, the Pathways Programs need to work for students by ensuring student pathways to Federal employment are clearly 

marked, coherent, and lead to further opportunities for careers in 

Federal service. Congress needs to insist on a few key elements in 

the Pathway Programs so that they contribute to high performance 

hiring and a coherent system for efficiently and accurately matching talent to need. Congress should use its oversight to ensure that 

OPM and Federal agencies collect and publish data about how we 

are doing in recruiting, selecting, matching, employing, developing, 

and retaining recent graduates in Federal positions. 

Second, pay special attention to the Presidential Management 

Fellows program. It is both strategically and symbolically important in attracting some of the very best people to careers in the 

Federal Government. The PMF selection process has been famous 

for being rigorous, competitive, and daunting, which we at 

NASPAA think is a good thing. We should be unapologetic and 

proud that the purpose of the PMF is to identify and develop future 

leaders and senior managers of the Federal workforce. As such, the 

PMF should select, match, and convert fellows based on the Executive Core Qualifications (ECQs) developed for the Senior Executive 

Service. 

Congress should ask for data on key performance measures of 

the program: Were the screening and selection mechanisms truly 

effective in identifying the most talented applicants? Were offers 

made in a timely fashion? Were the PMF positions posted by agencies consistent with the mission of the program? What percentage 

of finalists was successfully matched to posted PMF positions? And 

what happened to those finalists who did not match? 

Third, and finally, we also need a strong partnership between 

Federal agencies and universities to give life to the Executive Order’s new Recent Graduates Program. If we want this effort to be 

successful in drawing in graduates with the skills we need, it must 

serve both agencies and students. Congress should look for results 

that agencies have worked with education and professional associations to create Recent Grad Programs in critical functional areas, 

like budgeting and financial management, public procurement and 

acquisition, IT, human resource management. 

Ultimately, the challenge here is not just the narrow task of hiring students and recent graduates. Federal hiring reform is about 

nothing less than ensuring the efficiency and effectiveness of the 

Federal Government in the years ahead and our ability to tackle 

the complicated public problems and fiscal pressures we will face. 

Today’s students, especially the most talented, can and will make 

a critical contribution to tomorrow’s Federal Government and our 

Nation. Thank you. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much for your statement, Ms. 

McFarland. 

Ms. Mahle, will you please proceed with your statement? 

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1The prepared statement of Ms. Mahle appears in the appendix on page 72. 

STATEMENT OF ANNE MAHLE,1 VICE PRESIDENT FOR 

RECRUITMENT, TEACH FOR AMERICA 

Ms. MAHLE. Thank you, Senator Akaka. I am one of the vice 

presidents of recruitment at Teach for America, and I want to 

thank you for this opportunity to provide our testimony and hopefully provide some insight into how we have been successful to 

date. 

We are honored to help our congressional leadership think 

through the important question of how we will meet the growing 

need of individuals to serve in these mission-critical positions within our Federal agencies. 

Teach for America is the national corps of outstanding recent college graduates and professionals of all academic majors and career 

interests who commit 2 years to teach in urban and rural public 

schools and become leaders in the effort to expand educational opportunity for all children. Our mission is to build the movement 

that will eliminate educational inequity by enlisting our Nation’s 

most promising leaders, both in college, graduate school, and professional sectors, to teach for 2 years in the short run and in the 

long term become lifelong leaders from all sectors who will work to 

eliminate the barriers that students, families, and communities 

face to achieving educational equity. 

Each year we seek to grow in both scale and diversity and to engage more leaders from across the spectrum in our work. Over the 

last 21 years, and in particular in the last 5 years, we have learned 

a number of lessons that we are eager to share. 

We are often asked what lies at the root of our success. I think 

that the answer is pretty simple. It is the hard, purposeful work 

of our on-the-ground recruitment team. In our last recruitment season, in individual and group meetings, they met with over 32,000 

college seniors, graduates, and professionals, many of whom had 

never considered teaching in urban and rural public schools in lowincome communities. And it is also the tight management that we 

exert around our recruitment campaigns. At the end of the day, it 

is not particularly fancy or flashy, but it makes a difference. The 

members of our on-the-ground recruitment team believe deeply in 

our mission and, more importantly, in the potential of the students 

and the families in the communities that we serve. This belief 

drives them, it inspires them in their work, and it is through their 

relentless efforts that we are able to engage more and more leaders 

in our efforts. 

But beyond hard work and a passion for our movement, there are 

some relevant lessons that we have learned. 

First, students and professionals want to serve. As they seek out 

their professional paths, they are looking for opportunities to positively impact their community and their country. But they do not 

want to serve simply for the sake of service. They want to know 

that they are making a real, on-the-ground impact. Students today 

are savvy consumers who are looking for the most effective and direct ways to make that impact. It is critical, therefore, that students are presented with a compelling value proposition for public 

service. They need to understand what problem they are trying to 

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solve, that the problem itself is solvable, how they can personally 

play a role in solving it, and then, finally, they need to believe that 

they are entering a program or a system that will embrace their 

talent, challenge and nurture them in their development, and help 

them engage deeply and meaningfully with the world around them. 

Second, high-performing, diverse talent will drive impact. Teach 

for America’s selectivity and diversity are central to our success. 

Our selectivity is critical because the success of our program relies 

on the effectiveness of our teachers in the classroom and in their 

leadership throughout their 2-year commitment and after the corps 

experience. 

Diversity is central to our success because we believe that maximizing the diversity of our organization will allow us to benefit 

from the talent and energy of all those who contribute to this effort. And at the same time that we value each individual who commits to our cause, we do place a particular focus on fostering the 

leadership of individuals who share the racial and/or socioeconomic 

backgrounds of the students underserved by public schools. In 

terms of race, we place a focus on pursuing the overrepresentation 

of African American and Latino individuals, given that more than 

90 percent of the students we reach are black or Latino. At the 

same time, we also seek to recruit American Indian, Native Hawaiian, and Asian-American corps members given that we reach many 

students of these backgrounds in certain Teach For America regions. I am pleased to announce that in our 2011 corps, 35 percent 

of them self-identify as people of color. 

With respect to American Indian and Native Hawaiian recruitment, we recognize the historical legacy of inequity and 

marginalization. For example, only 49 percent of native children 

graduate from high school and only 11 percent go on to earn a college degree, as compared to the national average of 86 percent and 

29 percent. In response to this reality, Teach for America has 

launched the Native Achievement Initiative, a major component of 

which is increasing the number of Native American, Native Hawaiian, and Alaska Natives in our teaching corps. 

Finally—oh, I am sorry. I am out of time. 

Senator AKAKA. That is all right. Will you complete your statement? 

Ms. MAHLE. OK. Finally, we also think—and many of your previous witnesses spoke to this—that tactical support is incredibly 

important. Over the last 5 years we have instituted multiple application deadlines, which allows our applicants to complete the process within approximately 10 weeks. For example, we let people 

know within a week of the application deadline whether or not they 

have made it to the next step of the process. We instituted five application deadlines to better accommodate applicant preferences. 

And we think that multiple deadlines move people through the 

process quickly so that they can make the right decisions about 

their careers. 

And, finally, we only ask for that data which we know is helpful 

in our process. We have eliminated essays when the data shows 

that it did not give us additional information, and we are constantly re-evaluating our processes based on the feedback of our 

candidates. 

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1The prepared statement of Mr. Skwierczynski appears in the appendix on page 79. 

Through dedication, passion, and the relentless pursuit of results, we have significantly improved the size, diversity, and quality of our teaching corps. Yet hard work and innovative strategies 

do not account for all of our results. A key element of our recruitment is the value we place on teaching, leading, and the power of 

transformational change in our communities. Our applicants and 

corps members are drawn not only to the challenges and opportunities of impacting the lives of children, but the honor and prestige 

they associate with their work. Much like the military, joining 

Teach for America is a means of joining a mission that is greater 

than the sum of its parts. 

Thank you, and I look forward to your questions. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Ms. Mahle. 

Mr. Skwierczynski, please proceed with your statement. 

STATEMENT OF WITOLD SKWIERCZYNSKI,1 PRESIDENT, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION 

FIELD OPERATIONS LOCALS, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF 

GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES 

Mr. SKWIERCZYNSKI. Mr. Chairman, on behalf of the 625,000 

Federal employees that American Federation of Government Employees (AFGE) represents in 65 agencies throughout the Nation, 

thank you for the opportunity to testify today on the subject of inspiring students to Federal service. 

Hiring the next generation of Federal employees is a serious undertaking. Those charged with the task have a legal and social responsibility to conduct Federal hiring in a most open, fair, and 

competitive way possible. Working for a Federal agency is not the 

same as working for a private firm, and it takes time to make sure 

an applicant meets the standards our society expects the Federal 

Government to uphold. 

AFGE applauds President Obama’s Executive Order which repealed the Federal Career Intern Program, a discredited hiring system that made a mockery of the Merit System and its promise of 

open competition for Federal jobs, as well as veterans’ preference. 

In addition, the Executive Order created the Pathways Program 

to recruit, train, and retain well-qualified candidates. Because the 

OPM regulations are still in development, it is too early to tell 

whether they will avoid the pitfalls that plagued the Federal Career Intern Program (FCIP). 

We continue to urge OPM to ensure that the programs use meritbased procedures for recruitment, provide for equal employment opportunity, apply veterans’ preference, and comply with all applicable laws. 

As an employee and a union representative in the Social Security 

Administration, I know well some of the pitfalls of the non-meritbased FCIP. In the last 7 years, at Social Security Administration 

(SSA) virtually all hiring was under FCIP. FCIP was characterized 

by the use of nepotism and cronyism in hiring, the failure to hire 

based on veterans’ preference, and establishing an unnecessary 2- 

year probationary periods where the law provides for only one. 

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The union surveyed SSA employees about their attitudes about 

the SSA hiring practices. Forty-six percent of respondents were 

aware of favoritism—favoritism being defined as the hiring of a 

friend or acquaintance or relative of a selecting official or other 

management official. Fifty-five percent of respondents indicated 

that FCIP was used to advance younger workers instead of more 

experienced and qualified employees. Sixty-two percent stated that 

FCIP was used to limit competition, and 61 percent of survey respondents stated that FCIP was used to avoid the merit promotion 

process. 

The union obtained data from the agency regarding veterans’ 

preference use in hiring. For example, in Fiscal Year 2008, only 4.6 

percent of FCIPs were veterans; whereas, competitive hires that 

were hired that year, 17.4 percent were veterans. 

When we published a newsletter for our SSA workers regarding 

some examples in the State of Wisconsin and Washington about 

hiring of relatives of managers, we received scores of reports from 

employees around the country regarding similar practices in their 

offices. Any new recruitment system and hiring system must have 

mechanisms in place to prevent such abusive hiring practices. 

Managers have shown that giving them carte blanche hiring authority leads to abusive practices. 

Ms. Griffin indicated in response to your question that OPM 

oversight will cure the problems. We think that is not enough. Besides oversight, you need competitive practices and not open-ended 

hiring authority for Federal managers. 

OPM Director John Berry has noted several times the desire of 

the Obama Administration to make government service cool again. 

We strongly agree that it is important to support in concrete ways 

our Nation’s public servants and to educate the public about the 

value of service to America. If we do this, it will be certainly easier 

to attract the best and brightest to Federal service. 

However, new hires need decent pay and benefits packages to 

make Federal employment attractive. Unfortunately, the current 

political climate for all public employees, including Federal employees, is harsh. Efforts underway throughout the country would 

eliminate pensions, severely curtail health insurance benefits, cut 

or freeze pay levels, contract out government work, and eliminate 

longstanding collective bargaining rights. In particular for Federal 

employees, the 2-year pay freeze is effective this year and next, but 

there are others in Congress who are advocating 5-year pay 

freezes, including freezing all performance based step increases and 

bonuses. 

The Simpson-Bowles deficit reduction plan, which would provide 

to turn Federal Employees Health Benefits (FEHB) into a voucher 

system, would almost double health insurance costs for Federal employees by the year 2030. In addition, it would severely reduce 

health insurance premiums for Federal retirees. The FEHB system 

can—there are overhead costs and prescription drug rebate costs 

that can be built into the system which would prevent shifting 

costs to employees and retirees and saving money of Federal Government costs. 

The retiree situation that is being discussed on the Hill and before the Vice President, the proposals out there would provide for 

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almost a 7-percent increase for Federal Employees Retirement System (FERS) employees in terms of their retirement pay. Right now 

FERS employees pay 12 percent of their salary—0.8 percent of salary for annuity, 6.2 percent of their salary for Social Security, and 

5 percent for the Thrift Savings Plan (TSP). Congressional proposals to increase that by 7 percent would mean that FERS employees would pay over 18 percent of their salary for retirement. 

New employees would be unable to afford this. They probably 

would not contribute to the TSP, and they would lost investment 

earnings because of that. These kinds of proposals to attack the 

pay and benefits of Federal employees would severely inhibit recruitment of the types of individuals that we need in Federal service. 

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, unless these efforts to destroy the 

image and middle-class status of Federal employees are not halted, 

it will not make a bit of difference if the Administration creates the 

best possible programs for interns and recent graduates. A candidate with any sense at all would refuse to join a workforce which 

is constantly being maligned and financially undermined for political purposes. 

That concludes my testimony. I would be happy to answer any 

questions. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Mr. Skwierczynski. 

Ms. McFarland, I believe it is imperative that our agencies and 

universities work together to make sure universities understand 

the education and skills needed to prepare students for particular 

Federal career paths. This helps universities place their graduates 

in good jobs and helps the Federal Government recruit the people 

it needs, especially for technical, scientific, and medical jobs that 

often are difficult to fill. 

How is NASPAA working with your members to encourage this 

coordination? And what more can we do to help with this effort? 

Ms. MCFARLAND. I think NASPAA has a special role in coordination because we are an accreditor and we are able to bring employers and our schools together to talk about how students need to be 

prepared to serve the skill requirements of employers. And in this 

case, our employers are the Federal Government, State government, local government, nonprofits, et cetera. 

Our accreditation process has become outcome oriented and is 

competency based, so we are very used to invoking the language of 

what can our graduates know and demonstrate they can do in their 

future workplace. 

So we actually have an opportunity to bring this competency discussion to the table as to how you develop students into Federal 

workers using well-established skills and competencies that we 

have been working on since they were in college and graduate 

school, and in internships, and then as they enter some of the special Pathways Programs for students. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. 

Mr. McManus, you testified about the undersupply of qualified 

candidates in certain fields. Although interest in Federal service is 

high, students may not understand the available career paths and 

what training they need. Students interested in government might 

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be drawn to these fields if they knew about the opportunities available early enough. 

How could we better inform students about Federal jobs early 

enough for them to target their preparation for mission-critical 

fields? 

Mr. MCMANUS. Mr. Chairman, I think there are several ways 

that we can do a better job across the Federal Government to try 

to educate young people about the opportunities that exist. First 

and foremost Federal agencies too often wait to do their recruiting 

until somebody is in college—typically in their junior or senior 

year. Federal agencies, as well as society as a whole, need to 

change the perception of Federal employees and develop campaigns 

that show the great work that Federal employees are doing. 

One of the programs that the Partnership conducts that does a 

great job of doing this is the Service to America Medals, which 

highlights outstanding Federal employees and the work they are 

doing. The program helps people understand that regardless of 

what occupation you are in, there are opportunities for you in the 

Federal Government. 

Clearly on college campuses we need to do more and go beyond 

career services to connect directly with faculty in those areas where 

government needs talent the most. Again, largely we look at career 

services as the gateway to our talent on campuses. If we are going 

to be successful, we need to expand those efforts. 

Senator AKAKA. Let me followup with this: Your testimony states 

that the new Student Pathways Programs lay the groundwork to 

improve recruiting. I would like to hear your thoughts on how 

these new programs should be used specifically to recruit missioncritical talent to government. 

Mr. MCMANUS. Great. As I stated, the Partnership believes that 

student interns should be a vital component of all agencies’ entrylevel pipelines, getting to students early in the process and educating them about the opportunities that exist. I think Mike Kane 

from the Department of Energy talked about the value of the Student Ambassador Program in not only reaching faculty but also in 

reaching students. Interestingly enough, my colleague here from 

Teach for America said that last year they reached 32,000 potential 

applicants in their recruitment process. In the 2009–10 year, 29 

Ambassadors reached more than 17,000 students across college 

campuses. 

So, again, I think one way to attract mission-critical talent to 

government is by having peers who have actually served in an internship talk about their experience back on their campus and get 

people energized about the opportunities they have in government. 

Clearly the Pathways Program, particularly the Internship Program, gives students a first taste of the Federal Government and 

begins to expose them not only to the work of the individual agency 

and the work of the individual office they are in, but government 

at large. That is a great first step. We need to capitalize on student 

internship programs to build talent pipelines. A key feature of the 

recent graduate program is the opportunity to develop professional. 

It is not simply a hiring process or a hiring authority. It is actually 

a way to bring people in and to provide on-the-job training for the 

job that they are going to take over. 

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Senator AKAKA. Thank you. 

Ms. Mahle, as we have heard from a few of our witnesses today, 

it is important to have the right data to assist a recruitment program and adapt recruitment strategies accordingly. What type of 

data do you collect each year to help reassess your strategies? And 

how have you adapted your approach based on that data? 

Ms. MAHLE. Thank you. We have a strong relationship with data 

on the recruitment team at Teach for America. We start out—it is 

a process, so we start out with basic demographic data. How many 

seniors are there in a class at each college and university that we 

recruit at? What is the demographic make-up of that student body 

based on race? And based on that information we set recruitment 

goals at the top schools we recruit at. We set goals at about 340 

schools across the country. 

This coming fall we will have 73 recruiters on the ground in the 

field, and we track data day in and day out: How many people they 

contact via e-mail, how many people they meet with one on one, 

in a group setting, and then what the conversion rates are from 

that meeting based on who starts an application and who completes it. 

We are able to track on a weekly basis. We generate reports that 

are sent out to the team that track the percent of folks who started 

applications that we have engaged with, and then we look at where 

we are at as compared to the previous year at that point in time 

in terms of the number of applications started, and we break that 

out by our target areas in terms of both race, so African American, 

Latino, Asian American, Native American, as well as people who 

identify as receiving a Pell grant, which is the proxy that we use 

as someone coming from a low-income community. 

We are lucky in that we have five application deadlines, so each 

deadline represents at benchmark at which point you can step back 

and reflect on the process and figure out where you need to adjust 

course. 

So that is how we use data in the recruitment process, but I 

think another key component is the selection process because you 

have to identify the right people to recruit so that you have a high 

return. We use our student achievement data from our corps members to inform our selection process. So we look at our most effective teachers, what they are doing in the classroom, who has the 

greatest outcomes with their students. And then we look back 2 

years or 1 year to see what they brought and what they demonstrated in the application process. And we feed all of that information together, and then we feed that back to our on-the-ground 

recruiters so that they are identifying the right folks on the front 

end to spend time and effort on so that they will be successful in 

the process. 

Does that answer your question? 

Senator AKAKA. Yes. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Skwierczynski, as we have already discussed, I am pleased 

that the Federal Career Intern Program has been phased out. That 

program had been used as a broad direct hiring authority which I 

believe undermined veterans’ preference and important Merit System principles. 

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25 

What do you think needs to be done to make sure that the new 

Student Pathways Programs do not again become a substitute for 

the competitive hiring process? 

Mr. SKWIERCZYNSKI. Well, I think one thing that we have 

learned from FCIP is that, as I testified, if individual managers are 

given full recruitment authority with no strings attached, you find 

abuses. Now, in Social Security, for instance, we have 1,500 hiring 

officials. There are 1,500 offices and each manager does their own 

hiring. So many of them recruit at universities where their offices 

are located, but many of them decided that since there were no 

strings attached and there were no rules under FCIP that they 

would hire daughters and sons and nieces and nephews of fellow 

managers or their friends, and that cannot continue under this new 

Pathways Program. 

As I said, oversight is not enough. You need rules. You need to 

return to a competitive hiring system where everyone understands, 

the recruiter and the recruitee understand what the rules are, 

what the scoring system is, and that the best possible candidates 

will be selected for the vacancies that are open. 

Open-ended hiring systems do not work. We have seen it certainly in Social Security. There are too many abuses, so we cannot 

return to that system. 

Senator AKAKA. Ms. McFarland, you noted in your testimony 

that in recent years the competitive hiring system has not worked 

well for graduate students who have strong training and skills but 

may have little work experience, especially in the Federal Government. Why do you think this became more of a problem in recent 

years? And what can we do to make the competitive hiring process 

more accessible to recent graduates? 

Ms. MCFARLAND. It is indeed true that in recent years grad students have been having a harder time than they used to have. I 

think you can trace it to a lot of things: An explosion in the number 

of applications as we developed online mechanisms; the lack of familiarity of graduate students with how the system works and real 

uncertainty how best to present themselves on USAJOBS. 

How can we make it more accessible? The competitive hiring system should continue to be an avenue for graduate students to come 

into government, in addition to Pathways. I think for it to be more 

accessible, there would have to be better connections with internship programs so that students have more demonstrated work experience, coming into the competitive hiring system, so that they 

actually can document work experience and get some recognition 

for that. Some of the new resume-based applications that OPM has 

been introducing will be more familiar to students who are applying for other kinds of jobs besides Federal jobs that may help them. 

But I continue to think that the Pathways Programs will be very 

important in addition to the competitive hiring system for grad students to have opportunities in Federal service. 

Senator AKAKA. Ms. Mahle, would you please tell us more about 

how you use your alumni network to recruit on campus? 

Ms. MAHLE. Certainly. We currently have about 20,000 alumni 

of Teach for America, and we work with them in a variety of ways. 

We have a number of alumni who are in graduate school, and so 

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26 

we utilize them to both recruit their peers who are in graduate 

school, but also to recruit seniors and to work with underclassmen. 

We also use alumni to engage in phone meetings, in various email campaigns with individuals from their alma maters, be they 

graduate school or undergraduate, and also with peers in various 

career sectors. We have found that many of our alumni who entered Teach for America as professionals, having transitioned from 

a specific career sector are the most effective recruiters for individuals who are now contemplating that same kind of transition from, 

another sector whether it be finance or law or other business enterprises into teaching. They are in some ways the most effective individuals, and I think a number of people have spoken about this, 

and the Pathways Program speaks to it, too, that those individuals 

who have gone through a program have the experience, have the 

conviction, are incredibly important in terms of their candor, in 

terms of their passion for what they have done, and in terms of 

really creating that picture of what it looks like to serve and to 

have an impact and then to reflect on that, having gone through 

the entire process. 

Almost all of our recruitment staff are alumni of Teach for America themselves, so they are able to tell those stories, too. But we 

find there is a greater authenticity at times coming straight from 

an alumnus, who is not paid by Teach for America to sit down and 

talk with you about the experience. Therefore, we do lots of tagteaming between our recruitment team as well as our alumni working in conjunction with one another. As we grow to scale we have 

to figure out how to engage this force of alumni to an even greater 

extent. In this upcoming season, alumni will fully own recruitment 

efforts at a number of colleges and universities that we have not 

yet recruited at, and we are excited to see how that plays out. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, I wanted to compliment you and your program because I have spoken to teachers out there in Hawaii who 

are part of your program, and they have worked in different areas 

where they have made a difference. 

Ms. MAHLE. Well, thank you. 

Senator AKAKA. And what I like and am surprised at that is 

many of them have come back, have continued to teach in those 

areas. 

Ms. MAHLE. Yes. 

Senator AKAKA. And they seem, as you said, so passionate and 

committed, and I am amazed at what they are doing. So your recruitment must be good, and I want to use the word ‘‘diverse,’’ because your teachers have very diverse backgrounds, and that helps 

the educational process as well. 

Ms. MAHLE. Thank you. We think it is incredibly important. It 

is incredibly important to the students and families that we serve, 

and frankly, it moves us forward as an organization to have as 

many diverse perspectives at the table when we make decisions. 

Thank you. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, thank you so much for all of that. 

My final question is to the panel, and I know that as you sit here 

you have other kinds of comments you would like to make, and so 

I am going to give you that opportunity to add any other comments 

or recommendations you may have for this Subcommittee. 

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27 

I think the final thing we can do to help these situations and 

issues is legislation, so I would look at legislation as a final thing. 

But, we can make administrative changes, and so when you make 

your additional comments, suggest maybe what areas we can move 

in to move as quickly as we can to meet the challenge of the retirement wave. 

Let me then call on Mr. McManus to begin. 

Mr. MCMANUS. Thank you. I actually want to reiterate one of the 

points that I made in the oral statement. It is also addressed in 

the written testimony. It is critical that we not only collect data but 

also hold leaders accountable for recruitment and hiring. Leadership accountability is key. 

As we look at the landscape of young people we actually do not 

see lack of interest in the Federal Government. The challenge is 

that many young people do not understand what opportunities 

exist. We have found that, particularly in mission-critical jobs, the 

more individuals with engineering and the highly scientific backgrounds find out about Federal opportunities, the more they are interested in them. 

The real issue, though, is that Federal agencies need to be held 

more accountable for hiring reform. I am going to give a quick example of this. One of the key components of the hiring reform initiative and something that OPM is holding agencies accountable for 

is reducing time to hire. Time to hire in and of itself is not a good 

measure. We could hire very quickly and approve the hiring process overnight, but it does not mean that we have actually gotten 

the quality of applicant or the quality of hire that we actually need. 

More importantly, if we begin to break down that time-to-hire 

data and look at time to hire for an internal candidate versus time 

to hire for an external candidate, I think we would be very surprised. I would surmise that the time it takes to hire somebody internally should be significantly lower than what it is to hire somebody externally. 

If we are looking at an aggregate time to hire, we are fooling ourselves by saying that it takes us 80 days to hire someone when, in 

fact, it may take us 20 days to hire the internal candidate but it 

takes us 200 days to hire the external candidate. 

The Department of Housing and Urban Development has recently launched an internal initiative to look at something they call 

HRStat. They are taking hiring data very seriously and are having 

Cabinet-level or Department-level conversations about how long it 

takes to hire a candidate, how long it takes to hire somebody internally versus externally and how long does it takes to hire a candidate in one office versus another. 

Through this analysis they are able to uncover where the real 

problems and challenges within their hiring and recruitment process are, and are able to hold managers that are specifically responsible for those offices more accountable for their actions. 

Again, as I said in my oral testimony, until we actually hold 

leaders accountable for recruitment and hiring, everything we 

tweak around the edges is actually just that—a tweak around the 

edge. 

Thank you. 

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28 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Mr. McManus. Ms. 

McFarland. 

Ms. MCFARLAND. Yes, I would like to close by saying one of the 

things I found very interesting about this hearing was the issue of 

partnerships between universities and the Federal Government. 

The Pathways Programs raise a tremendous opportunity for those 

partnerships to take place. And I am not just talking about recruiting relationships, which we talked a bit about today. I am talking 

about the possibility of long-term partnerships between universities 

and organizations like NASPAA, and also professional organizations that have set professional competencies for entry-level professionals, to work together over the long term. We need to put flesh 

on the bone of the Recent Grads Programs in functional areas to 

create programs that really serve the critical needs of the Federal 

Government, where we are having a really hard time hiring really 

good people. I think there is a tremendous opportunity with the Recent Grads Program to ask for excellence and ask for very high 

standards and to create programs that serve that purpose through 

long-term developmental relationships between universities, 

accreditors, professional organizations, and the Federal Government. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much. Ms. Mahle. 

Ms. MAHLE. I have two recommendations on the area of possible 

legislation. 

First, Mr. McManus spoke about the availability of scholarships 

and fellowships for people who go into public service. One of the 

things that we have found to be the greatest barrier for people 

seeking to join Teach for America is the burden of Federal student 

loans, and this is particularly true for individuals from low-income 

backgrounds as well as individuals of color. We did a study about 

3 years ago, and this was the No. 1 barrier. So the extent to which 

loan forgiveness could be made available for those individuals who 

seek to engage in public service, who seek to teach in low-income 

communities, that I think could be a key driver to increasing both 

the diversity of our teaching corps as well as the number of individuals from low-income backgrounds who are able to pursue that 

path. 

Then, second, as you probably know, Teach for America’s funding 

was deemed to be an earmark in this last go-round, and we lost 

it. We had nearly 50,000 people apply to Teach for America this 

year, and we will be placing 5,100 in classrooms in 43 regions 

across the country this fall. We want to grow and meet the growing 

demands of communities around this country who seek Teach for 

America corps members and the pipeline of leadership, the people 

who stay and serve as leaders in those communities, continues to 

grow. But our ability to meet those needs and desires of communities across this country is limited by our ability to fund and support them. 

So I think those are two key areas where Congress could be particularly helpful, loan forgiveness and potential appropriations. 

Thank you. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Mr. Skwierczynski. 

Mr. SKWIERCZYNSKI. Yes, I have actually three things. 

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One has to do with in order to have an effective and fair hiring 

system, you also have to have an effective and fair merit promotion 

system. The two go together. Without both, it creates many workplace problems when recruits, new hires are placed into positions 

that current employees have the expectation that should be open 

for merit promotion. 

During recent years in Social Security, when we were hiring, 

once Obama was elected, under the stimulus package, there were 

about 7,000 hires in Social Security. Unfortunately, the agency decided to concentrate its efforts completely on hiring people rather 

than promoting people, and that caused a lot of internal resentment among incumbents within the agency who did not have the 

same opportunities for merit promotions as they did in the past. So 

I think it is extremely important that agencies do not concentrate 

on one aspect of filling vacancies to the exclusion of the other. 

A second recommendation—and in the Clinton Administration 

we had a pilot program on this in Social Security—is to use current 

employees in the recruitment process. Oftentimes we find that 

when employees are hired, they are very surprised at actually the 

nature of the work and also the workplace environment, that they 

were not given a lot of information during their recruitment about 

the actual work life that they would be experiencing if they were 

hired, and this causes a lot of folks, after short periods of time, to 

leave because they are surprised when they get here about the 

working conditions. 

So I would recommend that agencies consider using current employees in the recruitment practices while they are recruiting, in 

the interviewing, and interviewing recruits, who would be more 

free and be more able to answer questions and to alert new hires 

about the nature of the jobs that they are considering taking. 

The third thing is, once hired, we have found that oftentimes 

new hires are given little information about their benefits options 

and oftentimes make choices without having sufficient information. 

Oftentimes agencies have training classes for folks that are close 

to retirement about their options with regards to investments and 

everything when they retire. Those kinds of classes should be done 

when people are hired so that they can make reasoned choices 

about their benefits at the beginning of their Federal service rather 

than at the end when it is too late. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, thank you very much, and I want to thank 

all of our witnesses today for your thoughts and your recommendations. I encourage all of you to continue working together, and with 

this Subcommittee to build stronger relationships between the Federal agencies and our Nation’s colleges and universities. It is critical that we recruit and retain the best and the brightest to take 

on the pressing challenges our country faces. 

The hearing record will remain open for 1 week for Members to 

submit any additional statements or questions. 

Again, I want to compliment you for your statements and tell you 

that what I have heard today will really help us in our work to try 

to help our Federal Government to bring this about. So thank you 

again, and I want to wish all of you well. 

This hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 4:20 p.m, the Subcommittee was adjourned.] 

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