951 

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

+ + + + + 

•.nT;€NT OF 

N'SPORTATlOr 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATKOW-'fH ^ 1^ |\/r^|K 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS ['\ i-^^-^ <—"> ^ LZH J 

IIZC - 5 2011 

+ + + + + 

1;EAR!NGD0CK5T 

HEARING 

IN THE MATTER OF 

CORPORATE AIR 

FAA Docket No 

CPIONMOOIO 

DMS Docket No 

FAA-2010-0975 

VOLUME IV 

Thursday, 

August 25, 2011 

The above-entitled matter came on for 

further hearing, pursuant to recess, at 9:02 

a .m. 

BEFORE: 

THE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GOODWIN 

Administrativ e Law Judg e 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
952 

APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Complainant: 

KYLE LOMAZOW, ESQ. 

of: FAA Office of Regional Counsel 

1601 Lind Avenue SW, ANM-7 

Renton, Washington 98057 

(425) 227-1847 

On Behalf of the Respondent: 

CYNTHIA CHANDLER-SNELL, ESQ. 

of: FedEx Express 

3620 Hacks Cross Road 

Building B, 3rd Floor 

Memphis, Tennessee 38125 

(901) 434-8361 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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953 

INDE X 

WITNESSES: 

RE- REDIRECT CROSS DIRECT CROSS 

Donald Stiger 954 975 

EXHIBITS 

(None.) 

MARKED RECEIVED 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. neal rgross. com 
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PROCEEDING S 

9:0 2 a. m 

JUDGE GOODWIN RemeTnber we' re 

going to take a break between 11:30 and 11:45 

to allow the audio system to be worked on, and 

the audio system will be down. 

You can be seated. 

So, Agent Stiger, you want to 

return to the stand? I remind you that you're 

still under oath. 

Counsel. 

MS . CHANDLER-SNELL: Thank you, 

Your Honor. 

DONALD STIGER, COMPLAINANT'S WITNESS, 

PREVIOUSLY SWORN 

CROSS EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 

BY MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: 

Q Agent St iger, you agree that 

173.199 does not apply to a shipment that 

contains no regulated material; right? 

A By definition, it's not a 

hazardous material. Therefore, the HMRs do 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www. neal rg ross. com 
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not apply. 

Q Okay. And based on the testimony 

that you've heard and the materials provided 

to you, you agree that in this particular case 

regarding UN 3373 shipments, there was no 

regulated material? 

A The results of the investigation 

finally determined that the materials in the 

two shipments in question were determined not 

to be -- meet the requirement --or meet the 

Category B biological substance. 

Q So in this case, regarding the 

UN 3373 shipments, no regulated material was 

improperly transported? 

A At the time it was tendered, it 

was marked, but the subsequent investigation 

after it was discovered determined that the 

material did not meet the definition of a 

Category B infectious substance. 

Q So there was no regulated material 

transported at all here? 

A Ultimately, it was discovered as 

{202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www. nealrgross.com 
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such. 

Q Okay. Now, I want to clarify 

something. There are two different types 

of -- actually three different types of 

inspections that we talked about. Do you 

agree that there is a general inspection of 

packages, of all packages, when an air carrier 

loads them onto an aircraft? 

A Picks ' em up when there' s - -

there's a general inspection when the material 

is tendered from a shipper to a carrier. 

Q And we refer to that often as 

acceptance; right? 

A That is the acceptance. 

Q Okay. For dangerous goods, those 

shipments require what's really a second 

inspection, an inspection for the markings, 

the labeling, to make sure they're properly 

marked and labeled; right? 

A The inspection is conducted at the 

time that the material's offered and picked up 

by a carrier. So the item becomes regulated 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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in transportation when a carrier picks up a 

hazardous material. 

Q You understand that there are no 

air carriers who have dangerous goods 

specialists picking up packages at someone's 

front door; right? 

A In regards to what carriers say is 

a dangerous goods specialist? No. In the 

case of FedEx Express, you have air carrier 

employees who are named couriers that will 

pick up a hazardous material on that, and 

there' s a preliminary -- based on your manual, 

you do a preliminary inspection of that. If 

it's -- there's markings and indicators on 

there, there is a preliminary inspection that 

is done. There then is a secondary inspection 

based on procedures established by carriers 

where they'11 have a specifically trained 

specialist look at that. If at that time the 

material or the shipment for some reason or 

another is not in compliance with that, that 

is why both FedEx Express and UPS Airlines 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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have that special permit -- I believe it' s 

14680 -- that allows them to transport that 

material by road back - - no more than I 

believe it's 150 miles from the origin 

station - - back to the shipper. In other 

words, if a regulated party, an air carrier, 

or any carrier, determines that the material's 

not in compliance with the Hazardous Material 

Regulations, they are not authorized to 

transport the material back. That's hence the 

special provisions of special permits that 

were applied for and I believe granted both --

I -- I've seen both utilized by FedEx Express 

as well as UPS Airlines that allows the 

transport of the material back when it has 

been recognized at that origin station that 

it's not in compliance with the HMRs. 

Q For a regular package --

A Correct. 

that is not a declared 

dangerous good, 

Yes 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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Q -- air carriers are required to 

inspect those --

A Correct. 

Q -- which just involves looking --

I think you had called it the six-side cheeky 

looking at the box^ --

A Yes. 

Q -- making sure there's no leakage, 

no damage, no integrity problem, or any 

indications that it's a suspicious package. 

A Correct. 

Q And you agree that there's another 

kind of inspection that's required for 

dangerous goods shipments that goes well 

beyond the looking at the six sides of the 

box, looking for suspicious markings or 

labelings. It involves the acceptance process 

for dangerous goods, making sure that 

everything for this type of material has been 

done by the carrier -- I mean, by the shipper 

in preparation for transport. 

A There is, and that's -- that is 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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wholly dependent on the material that's being 

offered for transportation. 

Q Right. So there have been times, 

I think, in your testimony where we've said 

"inspection," and in your testimony, you've 

been referencing for UN 3373 inspection at 

acceptance; is that right? 

A There's an inspection at 

acceptance, yes. 

Q And for UN 3373 shipments, your 

testimony has been that there's also an 

inspection at offload; correct? 

A That if the package is in 

compliance with 173.199, there's the 

additional offload inspection that's required 

that, my understanding, is not required of 

other hazardous material packages. This is an 

additional requirement if the shipment is 

shipped and transported under the exception in 

173.199. 

Q You'11 agree, in relation to the 

UN 3373 shipments in these cases, that no 

{202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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dangerous goods were actually accepted from 

the shippers? 

A It was ultimately determined that 

the material inside was found not to meet the 

definition of a Category B biological 

substance. 

Q Okay. So the acceptance of 

something that doesn't meet the definition of 

a Category B infectious substance doesn't 

require any special handling under the CFR, 

does it? 

A The CFRs do not cover a material 

-- by definition, there's a hazardous -- it 

has to meet the definition of a hazardous 

material, though there are provisions for 

transporting items marked or labeled or 

described as a hazardous material when it is 

not. 

Q I don't want to put you on the 

spot, but do you know that provision? 

A The one that I am familiar with 

the majority of the time is 173- --or excuse 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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me -- 172.3 01, I believe, prohibited marking 

is one that I've had experience with, as well 

as I believe it's 172 (k) . If I could look at 

the regulations, I can refresh myself. 

Q Let me have just a second, and 

we'll see if we need to --

A Okay. 

Q - - get into that. 

(Pause.) 

MS CHANDLER-SNELL: May 

approach, Your Honor? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, 

BY MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: 

Q And for reference, I think we'11 

be looking at 49 CFR 172.303. 

A 303. Okay. 

Q I think that's the one. 

A Yes, 172.303 is prohibited 

marking. 

Q Okay. And can you read that for 

the Court, please? 

A On (a): 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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"No person may offer for transportation or transport a package 

which is marked with the proper 

shipping name, the identification 

number of a hazardous material, or 

any other marking indicating that 

the material is hazardous unless 

the package contains the identified hazardous material or its 

residue." 

Q Okay. 

(Pause.) 

Are you familiar with the 

provisions under which FedEx, Corporate Air 

and Empire Air were cited in these cases? 

A My understanding, it was the 

general citations, as well as - - general 

citations under the general requirements, as 

well as 175.3. But I'd have to take a look at 

the 

Q 

(Pause.) 

So according to your testimony, in 

(202) 234^433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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these cases, the violations you believe to 

have occurred on the UN 3 3 73 shipments is that 

they were transported when they had an 

identification number of a hazardous material, 

but they didn't contain that hazardous 

material? 

Part of the I believe also 

there was the failure to inspect on that. 

There was --at the time that the material was 

offered, at the time the material was 

accepted, and at the time that the material 

was transported; there was all indications 

that the material was regulated based on the 

marking, based on the time that the material 

was transported. And it wasn't until the 

subsequent investigation, after it was 

discovered by Agent Luscher, that they were 

able to, with hind- -- with 20/20 hindsight, 

go back and look at the material and see if it 

was actually -- to determine if it was 

regulated as a Category B biological 

substance. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross .com 
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Q And the determination was that 

there were no hazardous materials transported. 

A They finally determined, based on 

subsequent conversation --my understanding, 

subsequent conversations between Agent Luscher 

and the shipper in question, that it did not 

meet the definition of a Category B infectious 

substance. But it was only after it had been 

gotten to that point, and it was after it was 

discovered that that determination was made. 

Q And that applies to, for clarification of the record, the two UN 3373 

shipments in the case involving FedEx and 

Corporate Air, and the UN 3373 shipments in 

the case involving FedEx and Empire? 

MR. LOMAZOW: Obj ection, Your 

Honor. Asked and answered. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

THE WITNESS: That was -- yes, 

both cases, it was ultimately determined for 

the two shipments, FedEx and Corporate, and 

the one shipment between FedEx and Empire, was 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. neal rgross. com 
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ultimately determined that the material was 

not regulated. 

{Pause.) 

MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Your Honor, 

if I may have just a moment? I'm almost done. 

(Pause.) 

BY MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: 

Q Okay. Agent Stiger, are you 

familiar with the field manual? 

A I'm sorry. Which field manual? 

Q The one for FAA agents. 

A Oh. 

Q There may be another name. 

A That's our national inspection and 

investigation manual. Yes. I helped -- I was 

on the committee that developed, wrote, and 

then recommended to our management to adopt in 

regards to the inspection procedures, 

techniques, on how to conduct inspections of 

shippers, air carriers. And then there's a 

subsequent investigation manual that was 

developed alongside by another committee of 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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agents and management that, when combined, is 

the National Inspection and Investigation 

Manual. They call it the NI2M. 

Q NOW; is that the same as the 2150? 

A That is not the same as the 21- --

the 2150 is a order. The inspection manual is 

a guidance document that is utilized by field 

agents in helping to conduct inspections and 

investigations. It basically lays out --

provides scenarios, provides guidance on 

what' s to be looked at, how much is to be 

looked at, where do you look at it? It's a 

guidance document that, if a new agent came 

in, that they would be trained to do that. A 

lot of it contains inspection techniques and 

procedures. 

Q Are you familiar with both of 

those manuals? 

A I'm familiar in the regards I did 

not help write the investigations manual, but 

then I did go through the course to help teach 

the investigations manual. So I've gone 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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through -- more familiar with the inspection 

manual, but at the same time, familiar with 

the investigation manual, as it's the - -

provides a national guideline on how to 

conduct investigations and prepare enforcement 

cases. 

Q Are you familiar with the 

provision in the field manual regarding 

fairness? 

A I'd --

MR. LOMAZOW: Objection, Your 

Honor. What's the relevancy of this? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

THE WITNESS: I have -- I -- you 

know, in looking at the field manual, I'd have 

to -- I believe there's a provision in there 

that talks about, you know, you have to be 

objective as possible. But I can't -- I don't 

know if there's a specific section that 

references fairness. I know there's the 

objective nature that you must have in regards 

to conducting the inspections and investiga-

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealingross.com 
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tions. In other words, it's gathering all the 

facts. 

Q Okay. Let me -- I'm going to read 

something to you and see if you recognize it 

generally. 

A Okay. 

Q This is -- for the record, I'm 

looking at 2150, the manual that was provided 

in response to --

A That would be the FAA order. 

Q 

A 

Okay. 

Yeah. 

Q I'm sorry. It was provided to 

FedEx and Corporate Air in response to 

interrogatories and discovery in this case. 

On page 2-3, provision (g) , 

fairness: 

"To be effective, the Agency's 

compliance and enforcement program 

must be fair and reasonable, and 

should be perceived as fair by 

those subject to the regulation. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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This does not and should not imply 

an unwillingness to apply the full 

force of statutory sanctions where 

warranted. It does encompass the 

right of an apparent violator to 

be given objective; evenhanded 

consideration of all circumstances 

surrounding the allegations before 

final action is taken. It also 

requires good faith efforts to 

understand the apparent violator' s 

position and take it into account, 

as well as to apprise the apparent 

violator of the Agency's position 

in a timely manner." 

Does that sound generally your 

recollection of 2150, the order you've 

referenced? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Are you aware of any 

provisions in 2150 regarding timeliness? 

A There are - - I know there are 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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provisions in there -- I know the timeliness 

that would apply -- apply to us as agents in 

regards to preparation of the enforcement 

investigative report, and then the submission 

to our management, and then the submission to 

legal. I am not familiar with the timeliness 

once it is received by our Legal Department. 

I know there's timeliness issues on that, but 

I'm not familiar with that, no. 

Q Okay. Agent Stiger, I'd ask you 

to look at an exhibit marked R4. It's no in 

the manual -- I mean, it's not in the notebook 

you have. It should be in the stack near you. 

A Yes. 

Q Are you familiar with the document 

marked R4? 

A Not until we went over this case. 

I'd never seen this until I was brought in to 

help with this hearing. So the first time I 

did it was when we reviewed, I believe, the 

material that was submitted by you folks 

during the discovery process. 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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Q So you were not aware that the 

letter that's marked as Exhibit R4 was sent? 

A I had never seen this until I was 

brought in to be the technical expert with 

this case. 

Q Did you know a letter had been 

sent by FedEx to the FAA regarding UN 3373? 

A No, I had not. 

Q Okay. 

(Pause.) 

Did you participate in any way in 

the sanction recommendations that were given 

in this case? 

A No, I did not. 

(Long pause,) 

MS . CHANDLER-SNELL No further 

questions. Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Agent Stiger, just 

so the Court is clear --

MR. LOMAZOW: Your Honor, if I can 

ask a few follow-up questions? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: No. Hold on. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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There were -- in your review of 

the facts of the case, there were two 

shipments in question here? 

THE WITNESS: The shipment for the 

FedEx/Corporate Air, my understanding was, if 

I can go back there, would be --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Go to Complainant ' s 7. 

THE WITNESS: The shipment - -

there's a shipment identified by page 13 of 

16 --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

THE WITNESS: -- with the --

JUDGE GOODWIN: So that's the one 

that's 

THE WITNESS There's one 

shipment. That's one. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

THE WITNESS: And then the second 

shipment that was also discovered on that --

because that has a tracking number 8647 4191 

6 0 94. And then if you go to --

(202) 234-4433 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: The Other one is 

6503 

THE WITNESS 6503 is the last 

four on the tracking number. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So those are the 

two shipments that FedEx apparently handled; 

right? 

THE WITNESS: Correct. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Forget the 

specifics of packaging and all that. 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Is -- in 

Complainant's -- same exhibit, page 1 of 16, 

is that the other case, or is that just a 

different shipment? 

THE WITNESS: It's a different 

shipment 

JUDGE GOODWIN But did FedEx 

handle 1 of 16? 

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So how 

many -- now, FedEx handled all three of the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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shipments we've just talked about, 1 of 16, 13 

of 16, and 16 of 16? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. And did 

Corporate Air handle the same shipments? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. All right. 

Counsel, 

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. LOMAZOW: 

Q Agent Stiger, at the time of 

acceptance of a package marked to indicate 

that it contains a hazardous material, does an 

air carrier know at that time -- actually, let 

me rephrase. At the time of acceptance of a 

package marked to indicate it contains a 

hazardous material, does an air carrier know 

at that time whether it does or does not? 

A The indication would be, if it is 

marked on there -- there's an indication --

if -- if it's fully marked in accordance with 

the regulations, then there's an indication 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. nealrgross.com 
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that it is a hazardous material, as well as if 

there's partial markings or labelings. At 

that point, there's an indication that it may 

contain a hazardous material. 

Q So when an air carrier receives a 

package that's marked with a hazmat, like 

let' s say identification number, UN 3373, does 

the air carrier have to assume at that point 

that it contains a hazardous material? 

A At that point, there's strong 

indicators that the material may contain a 

hazardous material, especially something 

unique as a UN 33 73 marking on there. That 

raises suspicion that it may contain a 

hazardous material, yes. 

Q And in your opinion, if a hazmat 

package is improperly marked, is that also an 

indication that there might be something wrong 

with the contents of the package? 

MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Your Honor, I 

would object as it calls for speculation, I 

think the question is, if it's improperly 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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marked on the outside, what do you think the 

inside has wrong with it? 

MR. LOMAZOW: That's asking based 

on his opinion, based on his experience. He's 

an expert. What does an improper marking 

indicate? Could it indicate the presence --

or could it indicate a problem with the 

package itself? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I think 

we've been over this now extensively. 

Rephrase the question and re-ask it. But we 

plowed this ground quite a bit the last two 

days. 

MR. LOMAZOW: Okay. I understand. 

Judge. I'll just withdraw it, then. 

Actually, no further questions for 

Agent Stiger. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Agent 

Stiger, you can step down. I'm going to 

instruct you that your instruction from 

yesterday continues. You're still under oath. 

You're not to discuss your testimony with 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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anybody prior to the conclusion of all the 

hearings. 

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 

(The witness was excused.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any additional 

witnesses from either side in this case? --or 

in these cases? These are the --

MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: I don't think 

we have any additional witnesses, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You want to take 

just a couple minutes to confer? 

MR. LOMAZOW: Can we take a couple 

minutes to confer? 

JUDGE GOODWIN Yeah. Let's 

reconvene at 25 minutes of. Let's go off the 

record for the moment. 

(Whereupon, at 9:32 a.m. off the 

record until 9:44 a.m.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the 

record. 

Okay, Where are we, counsel? 

MR, LOMAZOW: Judge, just to -

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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and I know I've talked to Mike about this, and 

I've talked to Cynthia, so I certainly don't 

want to confuse the record. In terms of Agent 

Stiger's testimony, obviously, they just 

discussed -- counsel, myself and Agent Stiger 

have discussed UN 3373 ad nauseam. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. LOMAZOW: So the thought 

process that I had, and I discussed with 

Cynthia, is that we should count Agent 

Stiger's testimony regarding UN 3373 for both 

cases, since it's going to basically be the 

same issue. 

JUDGE GOODWIN I don't have a 

problem with that. 

MR. LOMAZOW: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I' 11 be honest. 

My philosophy on these is, if counsel agree on 

something, unless it's an egregious violation 

of the rules, I'll go with it, because it's 

not my case, it's your case, I make the 

decision, but ultimately it's your case. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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So is there any further evidence 

or testimony in the two cases of Federal 

Express Corporation, DMS-2010-0977, and 

Corporate Air, DMS-2010-0975, which were 

consolidated for purposes of trial? 

MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Nothing 

further, Your Honor. 

MR. LOMAZOW: Nothing further. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What I'm 

going to ask you to do - - I'll do this 

closing, and then we'll go off the record and 

we can start the other case. What I'm going 

to ask you to do is -- Mike, what's your 

turnaround on the transcript? 

THE REPORTER: Your Honor, I'm not 

really sure what Neal Gross's turnaround time 

is. I'm supposed to have the transcripts done 

in two weeks from the end of the trial. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: What'11 happen, 

the transcript is prepared, sent to the FAA 

Headquarters on the other side of the world as 

far as you're concerned, counsel. It'11 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
981 

1 eventually trickle back here. What I'm going 

2 to ask FAA counsel to do is, when you get the 

3 transcript, call Ms. Snell. The two of you 

4 work out a briefing schedule. I'm going to be 

5 busy quite a bit this fall. So don't feel a 

6 compulsion to get it to me, you know, the end 

7 of September, the middle of October. You work 

8 out a schedule that'll work for you. 

9 What I normally do is have the FAA 

10 brief two weeks after receipt of the 

11 transcript, two weeks to the Respondent, and 

12 then a week for rebuttal. You work out your 

13 own schedule. You want to do it four weeks, 

14 four weeks, two weeks, you want to have the 

15 first brief done the 1st of November, whatever 

16 works for you two. 

17 Then, obviously, what I want you 

18 to brief is whether I have to accept the 

19 regulation on their face, or whether I have 

20 the right to interpret the regulation. And if 

21 so, what can I take into consideration? 

22 My instinct is that, to some 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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extent, this is a case of first impression. 

So I think we should take our time, brief it 

properly. Whatever decision -- I'm going to 

encourage you to brief it with the idea that 

it might go to the Circuit Court. Okay? I'm 

not going to limit you on the brief, but I 

want the brief well done. Remember, our cases 

get reviewed by either the DC Circuit or the 

Federal Circuit. 

Justice Ginsburg likes to take our 

cases. I've read a few of his. The guy's a 

fountain of knowledge. I think that's Justice 

Ginsburg's husband. I could be wrong. 

Somebody told me that. I've never taken the 

time to check it out. 

But Judge Ginsburg on the Circuit 

Court takes a lot of DOT stuff. That's why I 

want you to take your time on the briefing 

schedule. If one of you runs into a conflict, 

consult with each other. If you two mutually 

agree to modify the schedule, send me an 

order. I'll sign it. 

(202) 2344433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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Anything else in these two cases? 

MR. LOMAZOW: No, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Are you sure you 

don't have another question, Ms. Snell? 

MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: I can think 

of a few? 

record? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sure you can. 

MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Are we on the 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. 

MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: I guess I 

Would renew my motion to dismiss, which Your 

Honor has already indicated that you'11 

consider. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, I'll take 

that under consideration. 

MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Thank you. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And I think for 

the purposes of the record, what you may want 

to do, if -- you two think about this. Do you 

want Respondent to file the motion, have the 

FAA respond, and address that as a preliminary 

(202) 234^433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
984 

1 issue before you brief, or do you just want to 

2 wrap it all into the brief? Your call. You 

3 two talk. Do it however you want to. 

4 Anything else in these two cases? 

5 MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Nothing from 

6 us, Your Honor. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What I'm 

8 going to do is I'm going to go off the record, 

9 and I'm going to take the exhibits from this 

10 case, and we're going to move them over here 

11 and get them out of the way so we can start 

12 afresh -- those exhibits that we're not going 

13 to use again. 

14 MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Okay. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay? 

16 MS. CHANDLER-SNELL: Yes, Your 

17 Honor. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: So we're going to 

19 go off the record for a few minutes. When we 

20 come back on the record, it'll be a new case. 

21 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

22 matter adjourned at 9:50 a.m.) 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www. nealrgross.com 
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Neal R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-4433 

Inc. 
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page 969:16 973:10 

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Nea l R. Gross & Co. , Inc . 

202-234-443 3 
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Nea l R. Gross & Co . 

202-234-443 3 

Inc . 
Page 990 

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• 

Neal R. Gross & Co., 

202-234-4433 

Inc 
• 

991 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Corporate Air 

Before: us DOT 

Date: 08-25-11 

Place: Seattle, Washington 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

"^H^^-C /t ^ ^^ ^ f 

Court Reporter 

(202) 2344433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 2OO0M701 www.ne^rgross.com