INTERIOR, ENVIRONMENT, AND RELATED 

AGENCIES APPROPRIATIONS FOR 2012 

HEARINGS 

BEFORE A 

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE 

COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED TWELFTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON INTERIOR, ENVIRONMENT, AND 

RELATED AGENCIES 

MICHAEL K. SIMPSON, Idaho, Chairman 

JERRY LEWIS, California 

KEN CALVERT, California 

STEVEN C. LATOURETTE, Ohio 

TOM COLE, Oklahoma 

JEFF FLAKE, Arizona 

CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming 

JAMES P. MORAN, Virginia 

BETTY MCCOLLUM, Minnesota 

MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York 

JOSE ́ E. SERRANO, New York 

NOTE: Under Committee Rules, Mr. Rogers, as Chairman of the Full Committee, and Mr. Dicks, as Ranking 

Minority Member of the Full Committee, are authorized to sit as Members of all Subcommittees. 

DAVID LESSTRANG, DARREN BENJAMIN, JASON GRAY, 

ERICA RHOAD, and COLIN VICKERY, 

Staff Assistants 

PART 8 

Page 

Public Witnesses ...................................................................... 1 

Public Witnesses—Tribes and American Indian 

Advocacy Groups ................................................................. 273 

Written Testimony from Members of Congress ............... 638 

Written Testimony from Individuals and 

Organizations ........................................................................ 644 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Appropriations 


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PART 8—INTERIOR, ENVIRONMENT, AND RELATED AGENCIES APPROPRIATIONS FOR 2012 


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INTERIOR, ENVIRONMENT, AND RELATED 

AGENCIES APPROPRIATIONS FOR 2012 

HEARINGS 

BEFORE A 

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE 

COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED TWELFTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON INTERIOR, ENVIRONMENT, AND 

RELATED AGENCIES 

MICHAEL K. SIMPSON, Idaho, Chairman 

JERRY LEWIS, California 

KEN CALVERT, California 

STEVEN C. LATOURETTE, Ohio 

TOM COLE, Oklahoma 

JEFF FLAKE, Arizona 

CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming 

JAMES P. MORAN, Virginia 

BETTY MCCOLLUM, Minnesota 

MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York 

JOSE ́ E. SERRANO, New York 

NOTE: Under Committee Rules, Mr. Rogers, as Chairman of the Full Committee, and Mr. Dicks, as Ranking 

Minority Member of the Full Committee, are authorized to sit as Members of all Subcommittees. 

DAVID LESSTRANG, DARREN BENJAMIN, JASON GRAY, 

ERICA RHOAD, and COLIN VICKERY, 

Staff Assistants 

PART 8 

Page 

Public Witnesses ...................................................................... 1 

Public Witnesses—Tribes and American Indian 

Advocacy Groups ................................................................. 273 

Written Testimony from Members of Congress ............... 638 

Written Testimony from Individuals and 

Organizations ........................................................................ 644 

( 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Appropriations 

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 

66–982 WASHINGTON : 2011 


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COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS 

HAROLD ROGERS, Kentucky, Chairman 

C. W. BILL YOUNG, Florida 1

JERRY LEWIS, California 1

FRANK R. WOLF, Virginia 

JACK KINGSTON, Georgia 

RODNEY P. FRELINGHUYSEN, New Jersey 

TOM LATHAM, Iowa 

ROBERT B. ADERHOLT, Alabama 

JO ANN EMERSON, Missouri 

KAY GRANGER, Texas 

MICHAEL K. SIMPSON, Idaho 

JOHN ABNEY CULBERSON, Texas 

ANDER CRENSHAW, Florida 

DENNY REHBERG, Montana 

JOHN R. CARTER, Texas 

RODNEY ALEXANDER, Louisiana 

KEN CALVERT, California 

JO BONNER, Alabama 

STEVEN C. LATOURETTE, Ohio 

TOM COLE, Oklahoma 

JEFF FLAKE, Arizona 

MARIO DIAZ-BALART, Florida 

CHARLES W. DENT, Pennsylvania 

STEVE AUSTRIA, Ohio 

CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming 

TOM GRAVES, Georgia 

KEVIN YODER, Kansas 

STEVE WOMACK, Arkansas 

ALAN NUNNELEE, Mississippi 

————— 

1 Chairman Emeritus 

NORMAN D. DICKS, Washington 

MARCY KAPTUR, Ohio 

PETER J. VISCLOSKY, Indiana 

NITA M. LOWEY, New York 

JOSE ́ E. SERRANO, New York 

ROSA L. DELAURO, Connecticut 

JAMES P. MORAN, Virginia 

JOHN W. OLVER, Massachusetts 

ED PASTOR, Arizona 

DAVID E. PRICE, North Carolina 

MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York 

LUCILLE ROYBAL-ALLARD, California 

SAM FARR, California 

JESSE L. JACKSON, JR., Illinois 

CHAKA FATTAH, Pennsylvania 

STEVEN R. ROTHMAN, New Jersey 

SANFORD D. BISHOP, JR., Georgia 

BARBARA LEE, California 

ADAM B. SCHIFF, California 

MICHAEL M. HONDA, California 

BETTY MCCOLLUM, Minnesota 

WILLIAM B. INGLEE, Clerk and Staff Director 

(II)


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(1) 

DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR AND RELATED AGENCIES APPROPRIATIONS FOR 

2012 

TESTIMONY OF MEMBERS OF CONGRESS AND OTHER 

INTERESTED INDIVIDUALS AND ORGANIZATIONS 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Good morning, and welcome to the committee 

members. 

The Ranking Member is stuck in traffic, which is not unusual in 

this area, and will be a little late in coming in. Other members 

during the day will be in and out, that kind of stuff, but welcome 

to the first of two days of public witness hearings. Over the next 

two mornings, the subcommittee will hear from a cross-section of 

individuals representing a wide variety of issues addressed by this 

subcommittee. 

Each witness will be provided with five minutes to present their 

testimony. We have actually got the clock working today because 

we have to get through all of these and so you will have an idea 

of how much time you have. What it is, is the green light the first 

four minutes, yellow light for the next minute and then red light 

is at the end, and we have to keep testimony to that length of time 

so that we can get through them because at about 12:00 we have 

to be on the floor for the C.R. that will be coming up, and the rules 

of the House are that we cannot be in committee when a bill from 

our committee is on the floor. So we will have to adjourn by then. 

They say that the first votes are going to be sometime shortly after 

12:00. I was going to yield to Mr. Moran for any opening remarks 

but he will enter those in the record. 

Let me also say that your full testimony will be entered into the 

record so I would ask you to respect the time and so forth, and as 

I said, members will be coming in and stepping out as they have 

other committee assignments and those types of things also. So 

welcome to all of you. 

Our first witness is the Hon. Glenn Thompson, Representative 

from Pennsylvania’s 5th Congressional District. 

Mr. Thompson, go ahead. 


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THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

U.S. FOREST SERVICE, WATER MANAGEMENT 

WITNESS 

HON. GLENN THOMPSON, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM 

THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA 

Mr. THOMPSON. Well, Chairman, it is great to be with you this 

morning. Thanks for the opportunity just to weigh in briefly on 

some issues that I think are very important for consideration. 

I represent, as you said, Pennsylvania 5th District, a very rural 

district, 22 percent of the land mass of Pennsylvania, a lot of natural resources, a lot of energy. We are real proud that 151 years 

ago Col. Drake sunk a well 37 feet, drilled oil commercially for the 

first time anywhere in the world, changed the world. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thirty-seven feet? 

Mr. THOMPSON. Thirty-seven feet with a wooden bit. 

And we have a lot of those natural resources—coal, oil, natural 

gas, timber, timber harvesting—and a long history in the 5th District and certainly continue to be an economic engine for the region. 

Today, Pennsylvania has returned to our energy roots with newly 

realized Marcellus Shale natural gas play, and this region has already produced enormous economic benefits in my region, which 

has struggled tremendously to create jobs and to maintain population over the past decades. This development is not a short-term 

economic boom. To the contrary, the prosperity Marcellus has created will continue for generations. We have the Utica Shale under 

the Marcellus, another play. Upwards of 80,000 jobs have already 

been created in Pennsylvania as a direct result of the Marcellus 

Shale, and Pennsylvania estimates an additional $600 million in 

tax revenues alone this year. This increase in revenue will also of 

course increase in time, and although the production of the 

Marcellus is still in its infancy, it is already providing 10 percent 

of the entire Northeast natural gas supplies. 

The supplies generated from the domestic production has led to 

decreased commodity pricing while foreign petroleum prices continue to rise due to political turmoil in foreign lands. 

Now, natural gas, bear in mind, is not a world market, which 

means that we in the United States can control its price through 

simply supply and demand. It has been estimated the Marcellus 

output will greatly increase in coming decades, making this cleaner 

fuel source more affordable to our Nation’s families and industries. 

While somebody suggested the industry requires new regulatory 

oversight from Congress or the EPA in particular, the fact remains 

that the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has done a remarkable 

job regulating Marcellus activities through the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection. We have some of the toughest environmental laws in the country, and I fully support regulation of this industry by the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection. 

This subcommittee plays an important role in my district and 

many areas like it around the country. Therefore, I want to make 

the subcommittee aware of my priorities and the great needs of my 

district during these difficult financial times. 


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Specifically, with the U.S. Forest Service, Allegheny National 

Forest, just down the road from Col. Drake’s well is the Allegheny 

National Forest, or ANF for short. This forest nurtures the finest, 

most valuable hardwoods in the world, and the ANF in particular 

is known for its cherry. The ANF indeed is a special forest with a 

unique history intertwined with production of oil and natural gas 

and timber. It actually was an oil field before it became a national 

forest 87 years ago. Pump jacks are a part of its scenery. 

When the forest was created in 1923, mineral estates were severed from the Forest Service ownership of the surface, and this was 

done with the clear intention to allow timber and oil production to 

continue and allow for the Forest Service to oversee managed sustainable timber harvesting. Now, consequently, 93 percent of the 

subsurface mineral rights are still owned by the private sector, 

which drives the local labor market and economy. I found it frustrating to watch as the ANF struggled to perform critical functions 

as their budget was continually reduced as a result of Western 

wildfires. The FLAME Fund has been crucial in providing insulation to the budgets of our national forest, and I applaud the subcommittee for their input in the creation of the fund and support 

through appropriations. I can say that the fund appears to be a 

success because forests such as the Allegheny Forest have not been 

experiencing the historical difficulties wildfires have caused in the 

past financially. 

Perhaps the greatest challenge to the Forest Service continues to 

be unnecessary litigation that continues to hamstring the Forest 

Service from carrying out its basic duties. Without a doubt, we all 

have a duty to ensure the Forest Service is adequately performing 

and the legal avenue for the public to address any malfeasance 

must be intact. However, I strongly believe there are some outside 

the service as well as within who are intentionally abusing the system based on a radical environmental ideology. These legal battles 

often create inefficiencies and are a drain on the service’s budget, 

staff and resources. 

Now, how can the Forest Service or any government agency, for 

that matter, do its basic job when they are incessantly involved 

with frivolous lawsuits? As the chairman of the House Agriculture 

Subcommittee on Conservation, Energy, and Forestry, I believe 

that there is an imperative to address these issues and respectfully 

request your partnership to make necessary improvements. 

Forest Service research stations—in addition to providing a substantial source of timber, another pillar of the Forest Service mission is to maintain forest health. Part of maintaining healthy forests is research and subsequent application. Pennsylvania and 

many other states have suffered devastating effects as a result of 

invasive species such as the gypsy moth and the emerald ash bore. 

I brought some along. I wish I would have brought you along one 

of the nice baseball bats we make with that ash too. This is the 

season to use those. 

Given the devastation that has occurred in the large regions of 

the country, it is critical that we continue research to establish best 

practices and means of combating these species in order to prevent 

further destruction of our forests. 


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Fish and Wildlife Service—the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has 

been performing excellent research in order to assist with the restoration of fish populations around the country. They made great 

strides in the Northeast, particularly with the Atlantic salmon, 

which has been devastated in recent decades, and certainly there 

is a research facility in Pennsylvania that is doing incredible work 

with salmon species as well as advanced research in fish genetics 

and migration patterns. And I certainly respectfully request level 

funding in fish and wildlife, particularly for fish-related research. 

And the final area has to do with Payments In Lieu of Taxes and 

Secure Rural Schools. Four of the 17 counties in the Pennsylvania 

5th District are within the boundaries of the Allegheny National 

Forest. The Payments In Lieu of Tax program is essential in this 

region because there is little or no tax base, which means little or 

no tax revenue for these forested counties. PILT is a major source 

of funding for services such as the police force, firefighters, road 

construction. Similarly, Secure Rural Schools programs ensure that 

children who reside in these forest counties receive adequate education and therefore I respectfully request full funding for both 

PILT and Secure Rural Schools. 

I want to thank you for the opportunity to testify before the committee and I am hopeful that as we move forward that the subcommittee will recognize the balance between fiscal responsibility 

and continuing our federal commitments to our national forests 

and citizens residing in forested counties, and I would certainly be 

happy to answer any questions you have. I appreciate it, Chairman. Thanks. 

[The statement of Glenn Thompson follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Thanks for your testimony. We appreciate you being here today. Some of us in the West always think 

that all the rural areas are in the West, but it is a learning experience for us that Pennsylvania and New York actually and other 

places have some very rural areas and issues that are of concern 

and similar to those of us in the West, so I appreciate you being 

here. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Well, I am a proud member of the Western Caucus. 

Mr. SIMPSON. And I appreciate it. Thank you. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Thanks, Chairman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. You bet. 

Next is Gregory Conrad, Executive Director of the Interstate 

Mining Compact Commission. Welcome. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

U.S. FOREST SERVICE, WATER MANAGEMENT 

WITNESS 

GREGORY CONRAD, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, INTERSTATE MINING 

COMPACT COMMISSION 

Mr. CONRAD. Good morning. My name is Greg Conrad and I 

serve as Executive Director of the Interstate Mining Commission, 

which is a multi-state governmental organization representing the 

natural resource and environmental protection interests of our 24 

member states who regulate the mining industry and reclaim abandoned mine lands. I am also appearing today on behalf of the National Association of Abandoned Mine Land Programs, which consists of 30 states and tribes that do the AML work. 

Mr. Chairman, these are tough states for state and federal budgets, and we realize the deficit reduction and spending cuts are the 

order of the day. As a result, some hard choices need to be made 

about how we spend limited dollars in an efficient and effective 

way. The environmental protection associated with mining operations is no exception. While we might want to run Cadillac programs that accomplish all of our goals and objectives, prioritization 

is the watchword of the day and we have to be mindful of every 

dollar that is expended on behalf of our citizenry. 

One of the tough choices that has to be made with respect to programs under the Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act is 

who will take the lead in implementing the act’s requirements. 

Once we agree upon that, it is then incumbent upon both state and 

federal governments to prioritize funding decisions to support the 

lead agencies. 

Congress created a state primacy approach under SMCRA whereby state governments were vested with exclusive regulatory authority to operate programs for both active mining operations and AML 

restoration following approval of those programs by the Federal 

Government. The act also provides for grants to states that meet 

50 percent of their program operations under Title V and 100 percent under Title IV for AML. 

Once again in fiscal year 2012, we are faced with a decision 

about the extent to which the Federal Government will support 


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these funding commitments under SMCRA and the state lead concept for program implementation. OSM’s budget proposes to move 

us away from those commitments and concepts. The Administration would have us believe that the Federal Government is in a 

better position to decide how these state programs should be run 

and that the states should do so with less money and more oversight. At the very same time, additional mandates and program requirements are being placed on the states through new rules, directives, guidelines and agreements among federal agencies. In this 

regard, I would like to submit for the record a resolution concerning state primacy adopted by IMCC at its annual meeting last 

week. 

Mr. SIMPSON. You bet. 

Mr. CONRAD. Something has to give, Mr. Chairman. Either we 

agree to support the states as envisioned by SMCRA or we change 

the rules of the game. Undercutting the states through unrealistic 

funding restrictions that jeopardize the efficacy of state programs 

is no way to run a ship. States are struggling to match federal dollars and signals from the Federal Government that it is wavering 

in its support concerning both dollars and confidence in the states’ 

ability to run effective regulatory and AML programs will do little 

to build trust. This is not the time to reverse the course that Congress has set for its support of state programs over the past few 

years. And in that regard, we are particularly encouraged and appreciative of the recent decisions to support state programs in the 

fiscal year 2011 C.R. 

For 2012, we urge the subcommittee to reject OSM’s proposed cut of $11 million for state Title V grants and restore the grant level 

funding to $71 million as supported by our funding request. We 

also request that the subcommittee instruct OSM to pursue any 

cost recovery proposal with the states before utilizing it as a mechanism to offset cuts to state grant funding in its budget. OSM’s 

proposal is completely out of touch with the realities associated 

with establishing or enhancing user fees. Based on a recent polling 

of my member states, we found that it would be difficult, if not impossible, for most states to accomplish this feat at all, much less 

in one fiscal year. 

With respect to the AML program, we face a more extreme situation. OSM is proposing to terminate the AML emergency program, 

eliminate funding to certified states and tribes, and completely 

overhaul the mechanism for distributing AML grants to the rest of 

the states. In doing so, OSM will totally upend the work that Congress accomplished just five years when it redesigned and reauthorized Title IV of SMCRA. That Congressional action was the result of over 10 years of effort toward developing a compromise that 

met the original intent of SMCRA and the needs of the affected 

parties. I would like to submit for the record a list of questions regarding this legislative proposal by OSM in their budget, which we 

believe must be answered before moving forward. 

The AML program has been one of the key successes of SMCRA, 

and based on Congressional action in 2006, it is well positioned to 

remain so into the future. We therefore urge the subcommittee to 

once again reject the Administration’s proposals to undermine this 

vital program and to fully fund state and tribal programs and the 


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emergency program. And in this regard, I would like to submit for 

the record two resolutions adopted by IMCC and the National Association of Abandoned Mine Land Programs along with a written 

statement from the association. 

Thanks for the opportunity to present our testimony. 

[The statement of Gregory Conrad follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you, and those submissions that you requested will be taken. We appreciate it. You bring up a real challenge that we face not just in this budget but across the government in those areas where a lot of the states do programs at the 

direction of the Federal Government and when you start reducing 

funding, it affects the state programs and so we kind of pass those 

problems on to the states, but it is a real issue, like I say, not only 

through Interior but throughout the budget, and it is one of those 

challenges we are going to have as we write the 2012 budget. 

Mr. CONRAD. We appreciate your support. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. We appreciate it. 

Next we have Tom Troxel, the Executive Director of the Intermountain Forest Association. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

U.S. FOREST SERVICE, WATER MANAGEMENT 

WITNESS 

TOM TROXEL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, INTERMOUNTAIN FOREST ASSOCIATION 

Mr. TROXEL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is Tom Troxel. 

I am from Rapid City, South Dakota, and I am testifying today on 

behalf of the Federal Forest Resource Coalition. 

We have a crisis in our national forests. Between 60 and 80 million acres of national forest are classified at risk for a catastrophic 

wildfire. In addition, bark beetles have killed or damaged 40 million acres of western forest over the last 13 years and the Forest 

Service expects those epidemics to continue for another five to 10 

years. The underlying reason is that we are harvesting only 10 percent of the annual growth on national forest timberlands, leaving 

the forest more and more overstocked and more susceptible to fires 

and insect epidemics. 

Research has clearly demonstrated that mechanical thinning and 

active forest management can reduce the size and severity of 

wildfires and bark beetle epidemics. Forest products companies 

provide the lowest cost and most effective tool for the Forest Service to improve and maintain the health of our national forests. 

There is a tremendous opportunity to increase proactive forest 

management, improve the health and resiliency of our forest, reduce the potential for catastrophic and expensive fires and insect 

epidemics, produce American wood products and put Americans 

back to work. Many rural communities close to the national forest 

have unemployment rates nearing 20 percent. Investing in the Forest Service’s timber program is a very effective job creator, generating 161⁄2 jobs per million board feet harvested. 

With the national emphasis on jobs and putting people back to 

work, increased management and timber outputs would provide a 

much-needed boost to rural America as well as improve the health 

and resiliency of the national forest. 

We have several recommendations. Our first recommendation is 

that you reject the proposed Integrated Resource Restoration line 

item. The IRR would inevitably reduce accountability for timber 

outputs, cost and efficiency. Further, not all forests need restoraVerDate Mar 15 2010 04:23 Jun 30, 2011 Jkt 066982 PO 00000 Frm 00015 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A982P2.XXX A982P2

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tion. But even where restoration makes sense, there is no compelling reason to overhaul the Forest Service’s budget structure. We 

recommend targets for each budget line item and an annual report 

from the Forest Service to the Congress on their accomplishments. 

We recommend increasing the fiscal 2012 program to 3 billion 

board feet. This would help satisfy increased demand for national 

forest timber, increase much-needed management of the national 

forest plus provide thousands of additional jobs. We recommend restoring the proposed $79 million cut to the roads budget line item 

and that you reject the proposal for no new road construction. 

We urge the committee to authorize the HFRA administrative review process for all national forest NEPA decisions as a means of 

increasing their efficiency. We support the Forest Service’s recent 

proposal for a pre-decisional objection process for forest plan decisions and believe that Congress should follow suit for project NEPA 

decisions. 

We recommend restoring the proposed $9 million reduction for 

hazardous fuels and that 50 percent of the hazardous fuels funds 

be directed to non-WUI areas. 

We urge you to provide adequate funding for the catastrophic 

beetle epidemics for thinning out in front of the beetles and for tree 

removal and fuels reduction where trees are already dead. The Forest Service’s response to the epidemics has been underfunded and 

mostly after the fact. And I brought you some mountain pine beetles and I brought you some bumper stickers, what we think about 

mountain pine beetles in the Black Hills of South Dakota. 

We recommend full funding for the collaborative Forest Landscape Restoration Act program provided that the program is funded 

with new money and with a separate budget line item. 

Finally, considering the backlog of work on the national forest, 

we recommend that the proposed funding for land purchases be redirected to forest management and improving the health of the national forest. 

In conclusion, I would like to reiterate the opportunity to 

proactively improve the health and resiliency of the national forest, 

maintain critical forest industry infrastructure, produce American 

wood products, create jobs and put people back to work. 

Thank you very much for this opportunity to testify. I would be 

happy to answer your questions. 

[The statement of Tom Troxel follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you for being here today. So the pine bark 

beetle epidemic has gotten worse as we have done less and less 

thinning of the forest and less tree removal? 

Mr. TROXEL. Yes, sir. It is continuing to span. The epicenter was 

in Colorado and it is expanding from Colorado to Wyoming to 

South Dakota to Montana and Idaho, and it just continues to expand. 

Mr. SIMPSON. It is a real problem, and when you get out in the 

forest and you stand on top of a mountain and look around and 

look at how vast some of these forests are, trying to address it is 

a huge issue. 

Mr. TROXEL. Yes, sir. 

Mr. SIMPSON. And I look out there at we call, you know, the red 

tree forest, and lightning comes through there and it is a tinderbox. 

Mr. TROXEL. Right. We do not have nearly the options that we 

would have had if we had done some management when the forests 

were green but there are things we can and should be doing. All 

of those dead trees and all the fuels pose a real risk of catastrophic 

fires, and we ought to be doing everything we can now. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I had a question for years with the Forest Service, 

and I do not know, I am not a forester, but we put out 98 percent 

of all fires that start. Fires are a natural part of the ecosystem, and 

it makes you wonder if that builds up the fuel so much that when 

you do have a fire that you do not put out, all of a sudden it is 

a catastrophic fire. I think we need more active management of the 

forest. 

Mr. TROXEL. I agree with you, and active management, in a lot 

of places we can do it with mechanical thinning. Some places in the 

back country it makes sense to do with fire. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I appreciate it. Jeff, do you have anything? 

Mr. FLAKE. I have the same observations that you have, particularly with respect to the ponderosa pine forest Arizona has. We 

have had some good management. Wally Covington at the Northern Arizona University and others have been active here, so I could 

not agree more. We had the Rodeo-Chediski fire a few years ago 

and it was far more devastating than it would have otherwise been. 

It was less devastating on areas, particularly on the Indian reservations, that had been better managed because some of the rules 

and regulations for the Forest Service were not in place on the Indian reservation. 

So I am one who believes in active management and allowing 

commercial interests where you can. That is the only way sometimes to recoup some of the money to go further into the forest like 

we need to. So, I am all in favor of moving ahead there. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I appreciate it. Thank you for being here today. 

Mr. TROXEL. Thank you very much, Congressman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Next we have John Shannon, National Association 

of State Foresters. 


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THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

U.S. FOREST SERVICE, WATER MANAGEMENT 

WITNESS 

JOHN SHANNON, ARKANSAS STATE FORESTER AND VICE PRESIDENT, 

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF STATE FORESTERS 

Mr. SHANNON. Good morning, sir. I am the state forester of Arkansas. This is my first time before your subcommittee, and I did 

not know I was supposed to bring a bottle of dead bugs. I will be 

mindful of that. 

Mr. SIMPSON. They are very impressive. 

Mr. SHANNON. If you ever invite me back—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. They will not allow me into Idaho with those. They 

have enough already. 

Mr. SHANNON. We have plenty. We have southern pine beetles 

too. 

I am representing the National Association of State Foresters, 

and my testimony today is going to focus on our recommendations 

for the 2012 budget for state and private forestry. 

We are the champions for forestry in the country. We take care 

of two-thirds of America’s forests, not the U.S. Forest Service. We 

also live in the world of reality. I have had to balance the state forestry commission budget for 17 consecutive years. You have to 

make some hard calls, you know. You folks are making those hard 

calls. We get that. So our budget proposals this time do not reflect 

the need for forest conservation. We are just trying to keep our 

noses above water. So generally we are recommending that the 

2012 budget hold the line at the 2010 actual budget level. 

Congress has mandated that the state foresters assess our forests and identify priority issues, and we have all completed that 

work and we have all developed state forest action plans. It is a 

big country. Forests differ greatly. But as put together these plans 

state by state, there were five themes that were really common 

across the country, and I would like to walk through those because 

they do tie to the state and private forestry budget. 

First is, if we are going to conserve and manage these forests, 

we need to know what we are talking about, and that means we 

need an accurate and current forest inventory, so we are asking to 

hold the line at $72 million for forest inventory and analysis. 

The second issue is, boy, there are tremendous challenges in forest health, and that is the theme that has already developed here 

today, sir, so I will not review that, but we are looking again to 

hold the line at $60 million for cooperative forest health. 

The third common theme is wildfires, and although I think the 

public watching TV thinks these fires burn in remote, dark woods, 

you know, far away somewhere, we know there are scores of thousands of American communities that are at risk from these 

wildfires. It is not just saving the woods; it is where people live, 

too. So we are asking to hold the line at $110 million for state fire 

assistance, and I can tell you in rural states like Arkansas, that 

is really, really important. And we could never pay all the volunteer firefighters we have. That is an investment that really is 

matched tremendously at the local level. 


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And the Forest Service has through the FLAME Act a reserve fund for paying for firefighting. It is $413 million. I hope you can 

maintain that fund, because if that fund is not there and the Forest Service needs more money to fight fires, you know where they 

are getting that money from? State and private forestry, and that 

has happened before and it halts work and it hurts partnerships, 

you know, so please keep that reserve fund at $413 million. 

We have got to keep forest land forested. That is not a given. 

States that are really growing in population have lost hundreds of 

thousands of acres of forestland, and forest landowners, private 

landowners keep their land forested only if it makes economic 

sense to do so. If it does not, they change their land use. And so 

the first step to really understand the economic development of 

their forestland is to have a forest stewardship plan. We provide 

those for the private forest landowners. So we are asking to maintain that Forest Stewardship budget at $29 million. 

The fifth and final common theme that arose across the country 

is, we need to establish and maintain forests where Americans live, 

which is not really in remote rural areas anymore. Most Americans 

live in town. And I am not just saying shade trees are pretty so 

we need to invest in those. There is measurable value in having a 

green infrastructure in America’s cities and an easy one to measure 

is stormwater runoff, the cost control for stormwater runoff. Sir, 

this is the one line item where we are asking for a small increase, 

up to $32 million. 

If I can just wrap up by saying that the state foresters would 

really like to begin a discussion with your committee on getting us 

more flexibility to integrate these programs under state and private and integrate the use of the funding not to just do whatever 

we would like to do but to focus on the federal priorities, which are 

outlined in the Farm Bill, and to focus on the priorities we have 

identified in our state forest action plans, and if you give us more 

flexibility, and there is a long process to get there but if we get 

there, hold our feet to the fire. You ought to heighten the accountability too. You ought to require accomplishments and that we 

measure those accomplishments and that we report those accomplishments to you. I look forward to working with you. 

[The statement of John Shannon follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. I look forward to working with you on 

that. I have always been an advocate of more flexibility for the 

agency, and what this committee needs to do is know what your 

goals are with this budget, and next year I will ask you, did you 

achieve those goals, if so, how, if not, why not, and those types of 

things. Sometimes I think we get into too much individual line 

item budgeting. But I appreciate your testimony, and I have seen 

firsthand the FMAT grants and how those help communities that 

would otherwise be broke. 

Mr. SHANNON. Yes. Hold us accountable. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. 

Next, we have Hank Kashdan, Legislative Director for the National Association of Forest Service Retirees. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

U.S. FOREST SERVICE, WATER MANAGEMENT 

WITNESS 

HANK KASHDAN, LEGISLATIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION 

OF FOREST SERVICE RETIREES 

Mr. KASHDAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and on behalf of the 

National Association of Forest Service Retirees, I really appreciate 

the opportunity to be here today for this public-witness hearing, 

and we want to especially thank you and the subcommittee for 

keeping the key multiple-use programs of the agency intact during 

your very challenging 2011 negotiations you just had, and it was 

very noticed and very appreciated and we thank you for that. 

These multiple-use programs are key to restoring the health and 

resiliency of America’s forests and watersheds, and they are the 

crux of the written testimony I provided today. As Mr. Troxel, Mr. 

Thompson and Mr. Shannon pointed out earlier, restoring America’s forests and watersheds is getting tougher and it needs even 

higher-priority focus, and in our review of the Administration’s 

budget for 2012, it does not appear that that priority is coming 

through in the proposal. The Western Governors Association, the 

Government Accountability Office have all pointed out the need to 

increase investments in restoration activities. The Departments of 

Agriculture and Interior just recently issued the Cohesive Wildland 

Fire Strategy. In there, they cite the need to increase investments 

in hazardous fuels yet the Forest Service’s hazardous fuels budget 

is reduced about $9 million. The Department of the Interior’s is reduced even more than that. 

And you look at the roads and trails infrastructure, the two line 

items that are really key to funding the restoration, this key restoration activity, they are down $93.7 million from the 2010 level, 

and it is often unappreciated that these two line items, predominantly the roads line item, are really key to restoring watersheds, 

maintaining roads to standard, decommissioning roads that for environmental reasons cannot remain on the landscape or that are 

not needed for their original purpose anymore, ensuring access for 

the public, and here in the intermountain list where the beetles are 

causing literally thousands of trees to fall across roads and trees 

every day, you need a good roads budget to keep those roads open 


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for access, for protection of the public, and it is a really critical 

function. 

So we look at the proposed Forest Service budget and see an $85 

million increase in land and water conservation to support the 

America’s Great Outdoors initiative, our conclusion is that is being 

proposed at the expense of these key restoration programs and so 

we want to encourage as some of the previous witnesses have said 

to keep that focus on restoration. 

Focusing on restoration, I want to mention the Collaborative Forest Landscape Restoration Act. The President’s budget does propose full funding for that, and we are very supportive of that. 

Throughout the country, we have seen very strong collaborative efforts starting to emerge. Some are fully functioning, some are 

emerging. I was reading about a couple in the Salmon River just 

the other day. You know, it was not too long ago where the widely 

divergent publics were only talking to each other as part of the appeals process or the litigation process. This offers an opportunity 

to bring those publics together, and it is showing some success. We 

are seeing increases in local employment, a good flow of forest 

products, bigger investments in recreation and some optimism in 

local rural communities for a good, sustainable economic future. 

Now, key to that landscape restoration, what we also want to 

note is the stewardship contracting tool. Stewardship contracting is 

up for expiration in 2013. If it were not for the support of the Appropriations Committees, we would not have stewardship contracting today. It has been slow in coming along but I think it is 

reaching critical mass and we would hope that we could continue 

to see your support as it goes through the authorizing process and 

the appropriations process. 

I would like to just close with something that is not in the written testimony that has got the retirees’ network quite abuzz recently, and that is the issue of travel management. In February, 

there was an amendment that Mr. Herger offered that would prohibit the implementation and enforcement of travel management 

plans. We think that may have some unintended consequences that 

are not desirable. Sixty-eight percent of the units in the system 

have completed travel management plans. These could not have 

been done without collaboration with the motorized recreation 

users. To be certain, there are hot spots, there is some discontent, 

but for the most part, we feel that motorized recreation users are 

supportive of this and in fact travel management is a friend of that 

activity. 

So with that, Mr. Chairman, I see I am just about out of time 

so I just wanted to thank you very much for the opportunity to be 

here today, and we are here and ready to serve and help in any 

way we can. 

[The statement of Hank Kashdan follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. We thank you, and thank you for your testimony. 

We look forward to working with you as we have these more challenging times with reduced budgets. We want to make sure that 

what we do is maintain the essential programs of the Forest Service and all of the federal agencies, so we look forward to working 

with you to address those kinds of things. Thank you. 

Mr. KASHDAN. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Next, we have Jim Lighthizer, President of the 

Civil War Trust. How are you doing? Good to see you again. 

Mr. LIGHTHIZER. Good to see you again, my friend. 

Mr. SIMPSON. You bet. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

HISTORIC PRESERVATION, ARTS AND HUMANITIES 

WITNESS 

JIM LIGHTHIZER, PRESIDENT, CIVIL WAR TRUST 

Mr. LIGHTHIZER. Mr. Chairman, I came to first thank the committee for its support of the American Battlefield Protection 

Pprogram in the past years. I recognize that 2012 is going to be 

a difficult year for the country, not to mention the Congress, and 

you all have some difficult decisions and choices you have to make. 

As you are very much aware, Mr. Chairman, one of the differences between the land we save and the other good land that 

other folks save is that we save heritage land, and it is impossible 

to move where the great armies fought. You cannot pretend it was 

someplace else. In other words, history is where it happened. 

The other thing I would say, Mr. Chairman, it is the sesquicentennial now. It started, I guess, officially yesterday or the day 

before, depending on how you want to count it, and we are running 

out of time. As you know, what we try to save, the battlefield land 

we try to save, has been defined, and we estimate in the next five 

to 10 years it is either going to be saved or paved, so we have got 

to get while the getting is good, if you will. This program has been 

a good program. It has got metrics. You can measure its success 

or lack thereof. It has worked well. It is a public-private partnership. We have skin in the game, so to speak. We have to raise a 

dollar to get a dollar. I think it has worked very, very well for the 

American public because we are saving heritage. We are saving 

outdoor classrooms, in effect. We are preserving the land so that 

we can teach future generations about what made this country 

what it is today, which I happen to think is a pretty good country. 

So we thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank the committee for its 

past support. 

[The statement of Jim Lighthizer follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. I appreciate the work you do. I look 

forward to working with you to preserve these areas. You are right. 

You do great work and, as you said, once you lose it, it is gone. 

Mr. LIGHTHIZER. Yes, it is gone forever. You cannot get it back. 

Mr. SIMPSON. And we will get out to Antietam one of these days. 

Mr. LIGHTHIZER. Please do. You know it is a standing offer. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I know. 

Mr. LIGHTHIZER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Next we have Trace Adkins, Grammy-nominated 

country and western singer. How are you doing? 

Mr. ADKINS. Fine, sir. How are you? 

Mr. SIMPSON. Welcome. 

Mr. ADKINS. I am proud to be here. This is a sobering occasion 

for me. I am not used to this. 

Mr. SIMPSON. You are just talking to friends. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

HISTORIC PRESERVATION, ARTS AND HUMANITIES 

WITNESS 

TRACE ADKINS, GRAMMY-NOMINATED COUNTRY MUSICIAN 

Mr. ADKINS. Okay. Well, Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to speak to you. My name is Trace Adkins. I do sing country 

music. I am also a student of history, a descendant of a Confederate soldier who fought in the Civil War. 

I have visited many of these hallowed battlefields that Mr. 

Lighthizer spoke of, and through the preservation of these sites I 

was able to stand upon ground where soldiers stood and reflect on 

the sacrifices that were made there. 

I come before you today just to share my personal interest in the 

Civil War and why I believe it is important to preserve the last 

tangible links to this history, the battlefield lands where hundreds 

of thousands of brave soldiers, including my great-great-grandfather, fought and died. With this being the first year of the 150th 

anniversary of the Civil War, now I think is the opportune time to 

redouble efforts to further protect these hallowed grounds. 

I grew up in Louisiana. I now live in Nashville. So I have spent 

a lot of my life in close proximity to Civil War battlefields, and my 

interest grew out of a conversation that I had with my grandfather 

when I was 11, and he told me about his grandfather. He was 73 

at the time, my grandfather was, and he showed me copies of letters that his grandfather had written home while he was serving, 

and so that piqued my interest and spurred me to become a student of history at that time. When he died 10 years later, I was 

21 and I took that occasion out of an homage to him to go to Vicksburg, and I was able to stand in the trench where his grandfather, 

my great-great-grandfather, had been. I knew I was within 100 feet 

of where he had stood, and it was a spiritual moment for me. I cannot really express it any other way. 

I was fortunate enough to be able to go, as I said, to Vicksburg, 

and Vicksburg is now part of the National Park Service system and 


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it has been well preserved, and it is a success story. There are 

many others, but I am fortunate to have that. 

The seriousness of the threat to these unique resources was 

brought home to me one winter day a couple of years ago. It happened to be on December 15th and I was having to go into Nashville, and I was stuck in traffic on I–65 south of town and I happened to notice that I was directly across the interstate from 

Overton High School. Overton High School is a school that sits on 

top of Overton Hill. December 15th happened to be the anniversary 

of the Battle of Nashville, and on December 15, 1864, it was said 

later about that battle that you could walk from the bottom of that 

hill to the top of that hill stepping on dead soldiers. It was that 

kind of carnage. And as I was sitting there stuck in traffic, I wondered if I were to get out of my truck right now and start knocking 

on people’s windows and asked them if they know what happened 

on that hill right there 140–some-odd years ago how many of them 

would know, and I think it is a sad commentary that probably very 

few, if any of them, would have had a clue. 

So these historic landscapes are treasures. They are American 

treasures, and preserved battlefields are cultural and historic landscapes that serve as a constant reminder of the sacrifices our ancestors made to make this country what it is today. And the protection of these battlefields will leave a legacy of commitment to preservation and conservation. These lands will be open spaces for the 

public to enjoy preserved in their natural and pristine state. 

The tourism that comes from these sites, it is very important to 

many of these communities, and so I think that this kicks off the 

sesquicentennial of the Civil War and I do not think there is a better time for us, like I said, to recommit to the preservation of these 

sacred lands, and I appreciate you listening and for having me here 

today, and I really appreciate Jim Lighthizer for all the work that 

he does and it has been an honor for me to be associated with the 

Civil War Trust and all the work that they do. Thank you, sir. 

[The statement of Trace Adkins follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you, Trace. They do good work, and I appreciate your commitment to this also. I tell people whenever they 

come here to Washington, people from Idaho, they always ask us 

where they should go and what they should visit, and I say if you 

have a day, go to Gettysburg but take your shoes off. 

Mr. ADKINS. Yes. 

Mr. SIMPSON. It is one of those things that is just amazing, and 

there are so many of those around the West. I am just surprised 

that coming from Tennessee and Louisiana that you refer to this 

as the Civil War. Being from Idaho, you know, I have a place over 

in Arlington, VA, and I learned right away that there was no Civil 

War, there was a War of Northern Aggression. 

Mr. ADKINS. And a war for southern independence. 

Mr. SIMPSON. That is right. 

Mr. ADKINS. In mixed company, I try to use politically correct 

terms. But in conclusion, I would like to say that as a concerned 

citizen, I think that these Civil War battlefields serve as a monument to what happens when political wisdom fails us and our disagreements are allowed to escalate beyond reason, and I think they 

are horrific reminders of what could happen. I just think it is very 

important for us as a Nation to preserve these places. Thank you, 

sir. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Thank you for your testimony and for 

being here today. I appreciate it very much. 

Next we have Margaret Graves, President of the Partners in 

Preservation. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

HISTORIC PRESERVATION, ARTS AND HUMANITIES 

WITNESS 

MARGARET GRAVES, PRESIDENT, PARTNERS IN PRESERVATION 

Ms. GRAVES. Thank you, Chairman Simpson, for the opportunity 

to testify. I am Margaret Graves and I am the President in Partners in Preservation. 

Our prior speaker spoke about the importance of our national 

historic sites, and given the current budget crisis, we are at risk 

of losing this incredible heritage if we do not use innovative solutions like historic leases to help the National Park Service address 

the myriad challenges it faces as the primary steward of our historic built environment. 

According to the National Trust for Historic Preservation, 2,811 

historic structures of national significance are in poor condition 

within the National Park Service system. Fiscal common sense requires the National Park Service to embrace preservation-minded 

partners like Partners in Preservation. The National Park Service 

Organic Act directs the National Park Service to conserve historic 

objects and to provide for their enjoyment and to conserve them for 

the benefit of future generations. This represents a significant challenge for the National Park Service. 

The National Park Service is responsible for conserving 27,000 

historic structures and 84 million acres of land. Their deferredVerDate Mar 15 2010 04:23 Jun 30, 2011 Jkt 066982 PO 00000 Frm 00045 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A982P2.XXX A982P2

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maintenance budget is currently estimated to be $10.8 billion, $3 

billion of which is for structures listed on the National Register of 

Historic Places. This is more than leaky rooftops. This represents 

the potential loss of our heritage for our children and our grandchildren. Government funds alone are insufficient to meet the challenges. Private funds are needed. 

Historic leases offer the opportunity to attract private capital to 

the Park Service’s challenges. They shift the maintenance obligations to the lessee. In some cases, the lessee is required to pay rent. 

In some cases, the condition of the building is so poor that the lessee invests in rehabilitation in lieu of paying rent. 

According to an MPCA report, for fiscal year 2009, 26 parks re- ported leasing revenue of $4.3 million. In fiscal year 2007, 48 parks 

leased a total of 147 historic structures. This is just a small fraction of the structures eligible for leasing. In my written testimony, 

I have provided a list of the parks that have granted leases to date. 

As members of the Appropriations subcommittee with jurisdiction over the National Park Service budget, you have the opportunity to encourage the National Park Service to pursue more historic leases or risk the loss of future historic resources. The legal 

framework in place and many benefits have been recognized of historic leases, primarily that underutilized park structures are preserved and rehabilitated with private funds, costing taxpayers 

nothing and alleviating the burden on the National Park Service. 

They have been underutilized. Why? In part, because park-level superintendents have limited knowledge of historic leases and the 

benefits they offer. 

Cumberland Island National Seashore offers a textbook example 

of how a historic lease could preserve historic resources. On Cumberland Island, the National Park Service is responsible for the 

preservation of 82 individual historic structures. These range from 

African American chimneys left from burned slave cabins to a 

22,000-square-foot mansion. They also are responsible for 47 

known archaeological sites, and because Cumberland Island National Seashore is an island not connected to the mainland by a 

bridge, every item has to come by boat. 

In fiscal year 2009, the National Park Service spent $1.69 million 

on maintenance expenses. Approximately half of that money came 

from their operating budget and the other half came from one-time 

funds. These funds, while generous in that particular year, are 

likely to be reduced going forward, given the budget crisis. They 

have inadequate staff to accomplish all of the maintenance tasks 

at hand. Partners in Preservation is willing to invest approximately $1 million in the preservation of two National Register historic structures which are otherwise at risk for demolition by neglect due to lack of funding. Other structures on Cumberland Island have been demolished by neglect because of lack of money. If 

a historic lease is granted of these structures, it is a win-win-win, 

a win for the public, a win for the Park Service and a win for future generations. 

Our Nation’s heritage is at risk of being lost if the National Park 

Service does not pursue historic leases more. If the National Park 

Service embraces historic leases and grants them more frequently, 

they will have had the ability to preserve far more of our history. 


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The alternative is to leave future generations a crumbling legacy 

of diminished historic resources and a loss of national heritage. 

Thank you. 

[The statement of Margaret Graves follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Thanks for your testimony and the 

work you do. We appreciate the private sector being involved in 

much of this. 

Ms. GRAVES. They can be a great partner. 

Mr. SIMPSON. That is right. Thank you. 

Next we have Trent Clark, Public Relations Affairs Director and 

representing the Federation of State Humanities Councils. Welcome. He is from Idaho. Imagine that. Trent and I have been 

friends for many, many years, and I appreciate you being here 

today, Trent. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

HISTORIC PRESERVATION, ARTS AND HUMANITIES 

WITNESS 

TRENT CLARK, PUBLIC AND GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS DIRECTOR, FEDERATION OF STATE HUMANITIES COUNCILS 

Mr. CLARK. Thank you very much Congressman, and let me extend to you the greetings and well wishes of the other members of 

the Idaho Humanities Council Board, many of whom are friends 

and folks you know very well. 

I was going to say for the benefit of the other members I might 

introduce myself, but as you know, I also in my day job represent 

Monsanto, who employs directly and indirectly roughly 3,000 Idahoans in southeast Idaho. But it is my privilege to be a volunteer 

on the Idaho Humanities Council. 

I am here today representing the state humanities council, and 

as that organization supporting the humanities budget request of 

$167.5 million for the National Endowment for the Humanities. I 

am here specifically to justify and explain the value that is 

achieved to the taxpayers out of the $47 million of that budget that 

is allocated to the endowment’s federal-state partnership. That is 

the money that goes out to the 50 states and six territorial councils. In doing that, one thing I hope you do understand is, there is 

tremendous bang for the buck achieved when that money is distributed out across the Nation. For every federal dollar that is invested 

in that public federal-state partnership, there are 51⁄2 dollars that 

are added then to it, so you get tremendous bang for the buck. 

The remaining question then is with that highly leveraged impact, what are you achieving? Well, here is my answer, and there 

are five specific achievements. First of all, the council programs lift 

our sights above the day-to-day grind to focus us on important 

questions like where have we been and where are we going. In 

Idaho, for example, we just had a council meeting where we distributed $85,000 in grants to projects all across the State of Idaho, and 

those range from everything like the museum up in Bonners Ferry. 

Have you been there, Congressman, where a local artist has painted portraits of all of the great figures of Bonners Ferry? And one 

can go to that museum and basically learn the history of the community just by reading the captions under all of these portraits. In 

Malad, we funded the Welch Festival which, as you know, is about 

Malad’s only cultural event. I mean, it is the peak of society in 

Malad, Idaho. And I am really looking forward to something we 


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just voted to fund, and that is a recollection piece on the Fort 

Bridger Treaty, which as, you know, Congressman, that Fort 

Bridger Treaty and the history of it, the three times that it was 

abrogated by the Federal Government and then the other three 

times that we as a Nation walked in and renegotiated the treaty 

actually explain why the culture of Fort Hall is the way that it is 

today, and a good recollection of that history is critical for us to understand how to deal with the Sho-Ban Nation in this day and age. 

So those are the kinds of things that are funded. 

The second achievement that we get through the council programs is a reach into communities that are remote and otherwise 

really difficult to penetrate with humanities content. I mentioned 

Malad, for instance, the fact that if it were not for our council funding we would not have a Welch Festival in Malad. In 2010, council 

programs reached an estimated 5,700 communities, and many of 

them are in these rural areas where if it were not for the councilsupported projects, those projects are the communities’ annual humanities education experience. 

Let me give you an example. The Kansas Humanities Council 

funded a project called Kansans Tell Their Stories, and through 64 

grants in 55 different communities, the program then engaged over 

314,000 Kansans in this dialog about where their history comes 

from, and they participated either in person or online in oral histories, research projects, museum exhibits. They even had television series, podcasts and special speaker engagements. 

In Kentucky, the Kentucky Chautauqua serves a very similar 

purpose because through that program they bring characters portraying famous historical figures into classrooms and into gatherings where they can sort of examine the history through the eyes 

and the minds of those particular characters. One such character, 

for instance, is Lt. Anna Mac Clarke—no relation of mine—but was 

the first African American officer to command white troops, and 

kids now in Kentucky are able to hear this point of view. In fact, 

through those presentations, 35,346 Kentucky schoolchildren have 

had a chance to learn a little bit about their history. 

Achievement three: Councils preserve and strengthen local institutions. That 51⁄2 dollars for every dollar invested I talked about, 

that actually comes with tremendous grassroots outreach. It is one 

of the ways that Congress supports what I consider to be one of the 

greatest assets of the modern world, and that is that we have communities with museums and libraries, and those museums and libraries are really the source of the information for the information 

age. These local organizations receive a lot of their funding through 

the state councils, and I can give you an example of Utah where 

there are 255 museums where the museum curators have been able 

to learn interpretation and the ability to put together informative 

exhibits because of the Utah Council of Humanities funding. 

Well, I may be out of time, Congressman, but I just would like 

to conclude by saying that I want to confirm what the National Endowment for the Humanities Chairman Leach had to say about the 

mission and role of the humanities funding, and that is to inspire 

and sustain the essential element of a free society and self-government, which is civil discourse. As our Nation steps up to answer 

the challenges we face today, we will need more of that discourse, 


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not less, and for that reason, we ask you to support us in carrying 

out that mission by helping us fund the very activities that uplift 

Americans in every corner of the Nation, in all walks of life, to 

focus on the humanities in their community, their state and their 

Nation. Thank you, Congressman. 

[The statement of Trent Clark follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you, and thanks for your testimony. One of 

the concerns—I have been a fan of Jim Leach’s for a long time. I 

have served with him here in Congress and we spent hours together talking about a variety of things, both in my office and in 

his, and in this C.R. that we are passing, obviously the arts and 

humanities got cut somewhat. We were able to prevent some of the 

dramatic cuts that we were fearful would happen. Is there concern 

that as resources go down from the state humanities councils that 

those grants that go to states will be reduced rather than the 

Washington, D.C., bureaucracy, if you want to call it that, that it 

will be fed back to the states, the cuts? Is there concern about that? 

Mr. CLARK. Well, there is concern primarily because there is so 

much value to be achieved through the partnership process. I 

mean, just from the examples I have given you, Congressman, the 

on-the-ground effect of the National Endowment for the Humanities is so leveraged in these local grants. It would be a shame to 

lose that leveraging by not having those funds flow down into these 

small rural programs. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thanks. Thanks for being here today, Trent. I appreciate it very much. 

Mr. CLARK. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Next we have Dr. Michael Brintall, the President 

of the National Humanities Alliance. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

HISTORIC PRESERVATION, ARTS AND HUMANITIES 

WITNESS 

MICHAEL BRINTALL, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL HUMANITIES ALLIANCE 

Mr. BRINTALL. Mr. Chairman, thank you for having me. I am 

here on behalf of the National Humanities Alliance. Our members 

are 104 scholarly associations, professional associations, institutions that represent tens of thousands of scholars, professors, curators, other professionals working in the humanities. I am the elected president. I am a political scientists and I am also the Executive 

Director of the American Political Science Association. 

We as the federation urge the subcommittee to fund the NEH at 

the fiscal year 2010 level of $167.5 million. Our written testimony 

includes some discussion of that. And in response to the points you 

are raising, the NEH is a small agency that does a very big job and 

in fact does three big jobs. We have been hearing about those here. 

It protects and preserves cultural resources, it facilitates broad 

public engagement with the Nation’s heritage, and it supports basic 

scholarly research and education in the humanities, and that is the 

point I want to emphasize here, but it does all of this on a remarkably small budget, and we cannot risk cutbacks that would enfeeble 

any one of those activities nor I think compel a situation that 

would compel sacrificing one for the others. So even modest cuts 

can have crippling effects when they are spread across those roles. 

I started my career wanting to be a city planner. I thought the 

cities needed help. I thought the solution would be easy and that 

planning and civil engineering would fix things up. I went to MIT 


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in 1968 to study city planning. As I began to study the urban 

issues, I discovered that urban affairs was really a humanities 

problem. Urban issues are grounded in neighborhoods. Sometimes 

they followed folk traditions. Progress required mechanisms for 

people to work together with civility. Everything was planned with 

local history. We could learn a lot from other places and times 

about how local government can respond creatively. 

So in the end, my studies shifted to humanities and social 

sciences with the same interest in helping cities but no longer 

thinking it would be easy. The humanities alert us to hard problems and then they help us to address them. As I started those 

studies, I happened to spend a summer on a ranch in the West, 

and this had a big effect on me too, and it was not Idaho, it was 

Montana—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. Close enough. 

Mr. BRINTALL. Close enough. Where I debated urban issues with 

ranchers and was schooled in values of individual responsibility 

and property rights, and I saw how we all have a common stake 

as a Nation in each other’s so-called local concerns. I came away 

from this academic and this real-world introduction to the humanities with a deep respect for shared ideas and the gathering of evidence about them and for public engagement across the country 

and across diverse issues, and I realized that this individual experience that I had is what the NEH really affords the whole Nation. 

Public support made a big difference in those studies as they do 

for many scholars. I had veterans benefits, for which I am deeply 

grateful. I had other Federal Government support for my graduate 

work. I am deeply appreciative that the public had invested in the 

promise of my career and in turn my career as a scholar, as a 

teacher and as a public official has been shaped by a conviction 

that I was charged with a public responsibility. If the NEH is afforded the resources it needs to support new generations of scholars and teachers, I can attest that they too will repay the investment for a lifetime. 

The humanities are essential in their own right but they are also 

essential partners for economic and scientific progress and for our 

national security. Let me give one quick illustration. General David 

Petraeus holds a PhD in political science. He recently received one 

of the highest honors in the American Political Science Association 

for his career. In his remarks, he emphasized that national security 

is a humanities problem. He emphasizes the study of humanities 

for young officers around him, urging they know and study history, 

language, and local cultures in order to meet our contemporary national security challenges. 

With its broad mission, the NEH is the focal point for national 

attention on the role the humanities can play for the Nation, aligning scholarship and teaching with preservation and public engagement. In framing this mission, NEH Chairman Jim Leach has described the leadership role of the NEH in two important ways: that 

it builds infrastructure for ideas, just as we do at the National 

Science Foundation and with other research agencies, and it leads 

in the democratization of ideas, expanding scholarly knowledge of 

our history and culture in ways that are shared with active public 

engagement. 


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We are grateful for the strong bipartisan support that this subcommittee has shown the NEH in the past, and we hope you will 

consider the strongest possible support for it in 2012. 

[The statement of Michael Brintall follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you for your testimony. We will certainly 

look at that. As I have said many times, I am a fan of the NEH 

and the NEA and sometimes they need defending. I am interested, 

though, that you were a political science major and David Petraeus 

was. I was a political science major in college when I first went and 

I did not know what to do with political science, how I was going 

to make a living, so ultimately I went into dentistry and look at 

where I ended up. 

Mr. BRINTALL. I am glad it stuck. 

Mr. SIMPSON. It is kind of strange. You wanted to be an urban 

planner. My first job in politics, I was on the city council, a local 

city council, and you are right, that is where the rubber hits the 

road, and someone once advised me, if you are ever going to do 

anything else in politics, you have to get off the city council because if you are there long enough, you are going to make everybody mad. 

Thank you for being here today. We appreciate your testimony. 

Next we have Ken Burns, who probably needs no introduction, 

a famous award-winning documentary filmmaker. Just this last 

weekend on PBS they had your Civil War series on again that they 

were reshowing. It is one of the first series I ever bought when it 

first came out because it was such a great—if you were not a student of the Civil War before that series, you certainly made a lot 

of students across the country of the Civil War. And also, thank 

you for your series on the national parks. It is very important, and 

I have talked with the National Park Service and others, that we 

teach future generations about our national parks, where they 

came from and why they are there because they really are the 

crown jewels. So thank you for being here today. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

ARTS AND HUMANITIES 

WITNESS 

KEN BURNS, AWARD-WINNING DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER 

Mr. BURNS. It is my pleasure, Mr. Chairman, and I thank you 

for the tremendous honor of having the opportunity to spend a few 

minutes with you today. 

Mr. SIMPSON. You bet. 

Mr. BURNS. Let me say from the outset, as a film producer but 

also a father of four daughters increasingly concerned about the 

too-often-dangerous landscape of our popular culture that I am a 

passionate, lifelong supporter of the NEH and its unique role in 

helping to stitch our exquisite and often fragile culture together 

and in helping to foster creativity and scholarship and transmission of the best of that culture to future generations. 

Few institutions provide such a direct grassroots way for our citizens to participate in the shared glories of their common past, in 

the power of the priceless ideals that have animated our remarkable republic and our national life for more than 200 years and in 

the inspirational life of the mind and the heart that an engagement 

with the arts and humanities always provides. It is my wholeVerDate Mar 15 2010 04:23 Jun 30, 2011 Jkt 066982 PO 00000 Frm 00066 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A982P2.XXX A982P2

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hearted belief that anything that threatens this institution weakens our country. It is as simple as that. 

For more than 30 years, I have been producing historical documentary films celebrating the special messages American history 

continually directs our way. The subjects of these films range from 

the construction of the Brooklyn Bridge and the Statue of Liberty 

to the life of the turbulent Southern demagogue Huey Long, from 

the graceful architecture of the Shakers to the history of our national parks, from the sublime pleasures and unexpected lessons of 

our national pastime and jazz to the searing, transcendent experiences of the Civil War and the second World War, from biographies 

on Thomas Jefferson and Lewis and Clark to Frank Lloyd Wright, 

Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Mark Twain. I even made a film on 

the history of this magnificent Capitol building and the muchmaligned institution that is charged with conducting the people’s 

business. 

Mr. SIMPSON. That would be the Senate. 

Mr. BURNS. Throughout my professional life, I have been fortunate to work closely with the National Endowment for nearly every 

film that I have done. I first received an NEH grant in 1979 as I 

embarked on my first project for public television, that same film 

about the Brooklyn Bridge. At this very early stage of my professional life, the experience of competing successfully for an NEH 

grant helped me set high standards of excellence in filmmaking but 

also writing and scholarship and even budgeting. Over the years, 

I would apply many times to the NEH for support under a variety 

of projects; working with NEH staff and humanities scholars assigned to the projects ensured that my projects stayed true to rigorous intellectual standards and reached a broad, receptive audience of tens of millions of Americans. This interaction has been a 

powerful influence on my work. Without a doubt, my films would 

not have been made without the endowments. My series on the 

Civil War, for instance, would not have been possible without early 

and substantial support from the NEH, support, Mr. Chairman, 

which I have long ago repaid. The NEH provided one of the 

project’s largest grants, more than a third of its budget, thereby attracting other funders. This rigorously earned imprimatur helped 

me to convince private foundations, corporations and other public 

funders that my films were worthy of their support. 

But above and beyond these facts, there is a larger argument to 

be made, one that is rooted in our Nation’s history. Since the beginning of this country, our government has been involved in supporting the arts and the diffusion of knowledge, which was deemed 

as critical to our future as roads and dams and bridges. Early on, 

Thomas Jefferson and other Founding Fathers knew that the pursuit of happiness did not mean a hedonistic search for pleasure in 

the marketplace of things but an active involvement of the mind 

in the higher aspects of human endeavor, namely education, music, 

the arts and history, a marketplace of ideas. 

Congress supported the journey of Lewis and Clark as much to 

explore the natural, biological, ethnographic and cultural landscape 

of our expanding Nation as to open up a new trading route to the 

Pacific. Congress supported numerous geographical, artistic, photographic and biological expeditions to nearly every corner of the deVerDate Mar 15 2010 04:23 Jun 30, 2011 Jkt 066982 PO 00000 Frm 00067 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A982P2.XXX A982P2

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veloping West. Congress funded through the Farms Security Administration the work of Walker Evans and Dorothea Lange and 

other great photographers who captured for posterity the terrible 

human cost of our Depression and Dust Bowl, the latter project I 

am working on that just received a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities. 

With Congress’s great insight, NEH was born and grew to its 

startlingly effective maturity, echoing the same time-honored sense 

that our government has an interest in helping to sponsor communication, art and education just as it sponsors commerce. We are 

not talking about a free ride but a priming of the pump, a way to 

get the juices flowing, a collaboration between the government and 

the private sector, which if you will permit me, reminds me of a 

story. In the late 1980s, I was invited to a reception at the White 

House and had the great honor of meeting President Ronald 

Reagan. I told him I was a PBS producer working on a history of 

the Civil War. His eyes twinkled with a palpable delight as he recalled watching as a young boy the parades of ever-aging Union 

veterans marching down the main street of Dixon, Illinois, on successive Fourth of Julys. Then in almost an admonishment, he 

spoke to me about the need, no, the responsibility, he said, for a 

private sector-governmental partnership when it came to public 

broadcasting and the humanities. His Administration, by the way, 

as you know, was very supportive of these longstanding institutions. I told him that nearly a third of my budget for the Civil War 

series came from a large American corporation, a third from private foundations and a third from the National Endowment for the 

Humanities, an agency then expertly led by Lynne Cheney, the 

wife of our former Vice President. He smiled and held me by the 

shoulders the way an affectionate uncle might do and his eyes 

twinkled again. ‘‘Good work,’’ he said, ‘‘I look forward to seeing 

your film.’’ And after it was first broadcast in 1990, he sent me the 

loveliest of notes about how much he and Nancy had enjoyed it. 

Mr. Chairman, the new proposals to defund or severely cut the 

Corporation for Public Broadcasting and the National Endowments 

for the Humanities and Arts will literally put us, me, out of business, period, and somewhere, I imagine, it will erase that twinkle 

in Ronald Reagan’s eyes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the chance 

to express my thoughts this morning. 

[The statement of Ken Burns follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you, Ken. I appreciate your being here 

today. Thanks for your testimony. Again, thanks for the great work 

you have done. You, through the humanities, as you mentioned, 

have brought a lot of enlightenment and education to the American 

people. 

Mr. BURNS. Thank you. There has been an argument in film 

schools about whether films actually got people to do anything, but 

the increased attendance at Civil War battlefields, the spike in attendance at the national parks after our series was aired after 

some flatlining or declining attendances is very heartening. 

There was a round of cuts in the early 1990s that were made in 

the endowments. We still received significant grants but they represented 5 or 6 percent of our budgets as opposed to a third, and 

so any further cuts are going to just further jeopardize our ability 

to communicate these, I think, important shared stories. 

Mr. SIMPSON. That is true. There were some significant cuts in 

the early 1990s, and if you look at it, we are barely getting back 

up to where we were at that time, let alone the loss that you have 

had over the years because it has not advanced since that time. 

And it is something that I know that Mr. Moran when he was 

chairman of the committee, Mr. Dicks when he was chairman of 

this committee and now I have all been concerned about and trying 

to make sure that both the Endowment for the Humanities and the 

Arts do not suffer those cutbacks that occurred because then it will 

be years to rebuild it again. So we are trying to do everything we 

can. 

As I said, when people come to me and ask where to go in Washington and I tell them go up to Gettysburg, I always tell them you 

need to either get a book or get the video of the battle to learn just 

a little bit about it before you go there, and when I say to them, 

you need to take your shoes off, they look at me kind of strange, 

and I say just go, you will understand, and they come back and 

they say I get it. 

Mr. BURNS. And that is why the importance of saving these 

places and telling these stories is essential to the continuation of 

our republic. It is strange that the past should ensure our future 

but that is exactly what takes place when we celebrate these places 

and these moments. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I appreciate it. Jim. 

Mr. MORAN. I certainly associate my thoughts with those of the 

chairman, and I want to again publicly thank Chairman Simpson 

for his advocacy of NEA and NEH in a very difficult period of time. 

Thank you for all the work you have done, Mr. Burns. Mr. Simpson 

and I think very similarly, and I have been in a little easier position. I have to tell you this is a good time when the C.R. comes on 

the Floor today, the reason why we have a much more reasonable 

level of funding for NEH and NEA is due to this gentleman right 

here. So he deserves a great deal of credit. And of course, his reward is the kind of product that you produce. 

So it is terribly important for all Americans to understand their 

history, understand their culture, and now that we have a sesquicentennial celebration—recognition of the Civil War is hardly a 

celebration, but your work is again the hallmark, the foundation 

that others look to for how to depict that. Almost every show I see 


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on the Civil War, whether it is the background music or some of 

the photos, part of the video, they continue to refer. It is an historical reference today and will serve to be, I suspect, for the 200th 

recognition. Thank you, and I cannot imagine a better representative of what NEH accomplishes than your work, Mr. Burns. 

Mr. BURNS. I thank you very much, Congressman, for those kind 

words, and just would repeat again what I said in my testimony 

which is that it was the initial grant from the National Endowment 

for the Humanities, fully a third of our budget, that permitted us 

and that rigorously earned grant to attract the corporate support, 

to attract the foundation support, and when we disrupt any of that 

fragile tripod, then we run the risk of losing the whole business. 

So the continued support now at 6, 7, 8 percent of our budgets is 

in some ways even more critical. 

Mr. MORAN. You are doing one on the Great Depression, the 

Dust Bowl? 

Mr. BURNS. We just finished one on Prohibition that enjoyed endowment support, and just have received a grant to complete a film 

on the Dust Bowl and are working on several other projects that 

I think will be of interest. 

Mr. MORAN. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. 

Mr. BURNS. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Next we have Ed Ayers, President of the University of Richmond, American historian, History Guys radio show 

personality, Digital Humanities pioneer. Anything else I should 

add? 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

ARTS AND HUMANITIES 

WITNESS 

ED AYERS, PRESIDENT OF UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND, AMERICAN 

HISTORIAN 

Mr. AYERS. No, that sounds good. All those are a little generous. 

As a matter of fact, I think of myself as representing sort of the 

everyman academic that carries on a large part of what the NEH 

is trying to do. My eloquent predecessors have said important 

things. I want to give you an image of 1985, my first NEH grant, 

$11,500, paid half my salary. I bought a $400 car and drove 12,000 

miles from one Motel 6 to another across the American South to 

write a history of the people in the three generations after emancipation, and it was a finalist for the National Book Award and Pulitzer Prize a little while later. And then five years later, the NEH 

when nobody else thought there might actually be some use for this 

crazy World Wide Web thing, then only two or three years old, for 

education, and they funded something called the ‘‘Valley of the 

Shadow: Two Communities in the American Civil War,’’ about the 

same time that Ken Burns’s series was coming out, and it is still 

alive 15 years later and it has reached people in Latin America, 

China. Millions of people every year have gone to this to actually 

explore history for themselves by seeing all the primary documents 

on that. 


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And we are now working on a project at the University of Richmond where we are trying to make it possible to visualize what the 

emancipation of 4 million people actually looked like. You cannot 

wrap your mind around something the size of continental Europe, 

when did that happen, how did people become free, and so we are 

mapping all the progress of the Union armies and where the slave 

population was, documenting every instance we have of someone 

becoming free and putting it all in this big database. 

And you were kind enough to mention our radio show, 

‘‘BackStory with American History Guys,’’ which just downloaded 

its millionth podcast, and we have only been on two and a half 

years, and once again the NEH stepped up when nobody else knew 

that there might be a market for three guys talking about American history, the issues it raises today. We just did a three-part series on the American Civil War and people called in from all the 

other United States and actually from abroad, because people want 

to talk, not just listen or watch. They want to read and discuss 

those things. 

And that is the final thing that I am doing, working with the 

American Library Association and the NEH to put together reading 

groups that will be in libraries all across the United States from 

my native Appalachia to the reservations of the West to inner cities 

all across the country, and there presenting people with the raw 

materials of what the Civil War was, having them figure it out for 

themselves. 

You have heard a lot about leveraging, and that is a point that 

I would really like to emphasize, NEH stepping up and working 

with the ALA to make these things possible that would not have 

happened otherwise. 

Now, I have another perspective. I was on the National Council 

of the Humanities starting in 2000, and over the five years I 

worked on the council, I read hundreds of proposals. Everything 

that the NEH funds and the range of what they do is really remarkable, from museum installations and television shows to editions of the Founding Fathers and teachers institutes, the amount 

of imagination and good will just seeing those is both heartening 

and heartbreaking because not many of those can be funded. This 

is a very rigorous process. I mean, this is like the NSF or the NIH 

and the amount of budgeting and documentation are acts of scholarship in themselves, and here people come together with no compensation to judge these. Then the council looked at them all, the 

chairman, and what I want to emphasize is that the government’s 

money, the people’s money is so carefully stewarded. People watch 

and think what is the return on this, and I had a chance to see 

what that looks like in the process of actually making. 

The NEH works in a remarkable way, for it leverages what you 

have heard about, local initiatives, local curiosity and local investment. The multiplier effect is really impressive. I have seen what 

it does for schools. I have seen what it does for historical societies. 

I have seen what it does for libraries and museums. It is a catalyst 

for the imagination and investment for people throughout the 

United States. It touches every kind of community. I have gone to 

tiny, little schoolhouses and talked to people where that would be 

the only chance they would have to have a book discussion or to 


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talk about Ken Burn’s series. The staff of the NEH stretches its 

dollars as far as they can possibly stretch. 

Something people do not realize: The United States invented the 

modern concept of the humanities about 100 years ago. The idea 

of pulling together all the studies of the human record into one 

place is an American invention, and from the beginning the idea 

was that the humanities should be useful rather than ornamental, 

a very American kind of cast to this, why would you want to understand these things, and very often the answer is, to foster democracy, to connect with a broad range of American people, and the 

NEH builds on this great tradition. 

I know we face great challenges including those of budgets, and 

we all understand the need to examine how those budgets are 

used. Those who invest in humanities are not asking for a large 

amount of money in the grand scheme of things but we do help you 

to sustain what is in fact one of the best investments this country 

has ever made. 

I am very grateful for the chance to speak with you today. 

[The statement of Ed Ayers follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you for being here. We appreciate your testimony. I agree with you, it is a great investment that we make. 

Thank you. 

Mr. MORAN. Excellent testimony. Thank you, Mr. Ayers. 

Next we have—and I am going to mispronounce this, I am 

sorry—Azar Nafisi. Is that right? 

Ms. NAFISI. Yes. 

Mr. SIMPSON. You are next. Thank you. 

Mr. MORAN. I have actually read her book. 

Mr. SIMPSON. She is the author of ‘‘Reading Lolita in Tehran.’’ 

Ms. NAFISI. Yes, and I had the honor and pleasure of being with 

Congressman Moran when he defended culture in Iranian youth in 

Aspen Institution. 

Mr. SIMPSON. All right. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

ARTS AND HUMANITIES 

WITNESS 

AZAR NAFISI, IRANIAN E ́ MIGRE ́ AND AUTHOR OF ‘‘READING LOLITA IN 

TEHRAN’’ 

Ms. NAFISI. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and Congressman Moran for giving me this rare privilege and opportunity to tell 

you why from the moment I left my country of birth, Iran, and 

came to this country I discovered the National Endowment for Humanities is a natural home for, and because I have this unique experience of living in a country where its government from its very 

inception 30 years ago, the Islamic Republic, waged an all-out war 

against individual rights and human rights in terms of an allaround assault on women, minorities and culture and alongside of 

it, it declared war on humanities, on culture, on imagination as 

sort of a part of Western conspiracy and cultural invasion by the 

West, especially at that time you had the honor of being the great 

Satan, especially invasion by America, the great Satan. And you 

know, in 2009, before Egypt, before Tunisia, before Libya when 

hundreds of thousands of Iranian people came into the streets to 

protest the rigged presidential elections, the assault again turned 

to humanities. They said that this was a Western conspiracy to 

lead our people astray and so they shot down all the humanities. 

They threatened to shut down all the humanities departments at 

the universities, and for all practical purposes, they have almost 

done that. 

So I often wonder when we think of Iran, we immediately think 

of Mr. Ahmadinejad with this sort of cynical grin, you know, as if 

he has just broken the neighbor’s window and gotten away with it, 

but, you know, if you look at it through the alternative eyes of 

imagination, through the alternative eyes of culture, through the 

alternatives eyes of history, we discover not our differences but 

how the Iranian and the American people have in fact in common, 

a country with 3,000 years’ history, a country that had the first 

constitutional revolution in Asia, a country with its women like Sojourner Truth, like Harriet Beecher Stowe, like Elizabeth Cady 

Stanton, for over 100 years ago fought for their rights. At the time 


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of the revolution in 1979, Iranian women were active in all walks 

of life. We had two women ministers, one minister for women’s affairs. My own mother was one of the first women who went into 

the congress in 1963, 11 years before Switzerland had given women 

the right to vote. 

So what I am trying to say, and you might say, okay, you know, 

what does all this have to do with humanities. I want to tell you 

that humanities was the first victim alongside of all this. They lowered the age of marriage from 18 to 9. They brought punishment 

of stoning to death for what they called the crimes of adultery and 

prostitution. They also excised Olive Oyl from most of the scenes 

in Popeye because you did not know that she was a loose woman 

and she was having an illicit relationship. In the same manner, 

they took Ophelia out of most scenes of the Russian version of 

Hamlet for the same reason. So you see, for me, before I came into 

this great country, I had already made my home through the first 

book that I read from America was the Wizard of Oz and Huck 

Finn which is still my companion and Frederick Douglass and 

Abraham Lincoln and Emerson, who translated the two classics of 

Iranian literature, and Walt Whitman and Saul Bellow. When my 

children, who had watched the forbidden videos of Marx Brothers 

and Laurel and Hardy, when they came to this country they had 

already felt that home and you can see why National Endowment 

for Humanities was really my home. It was a place where I felt 

that I can continue to be part of this great country and at the same 

time be a citizen of the world. Like millions of people, sir, I came 

to this country not to fill my pockets, not to make money. I came 

to this country because it was founded on a dream, because it was 

founded on this courage to believe that what is imagined can also 

be actualized. 

You know, I think of the monuments in this great city. I think 

of the three monuments to the three Presidents who talked about 

to be enlightened means to join the great republic of humans, of 

Jefferson, whose Library of Congress reflects the ideals of the Declaration of Independence, of Lincoln, whose language is filled with 

the poetry of the Bible and Shakespeare and of Martin Luther King 

who on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial reignited the dream, the 

passion for that dream and gave his life in order to make it possible. I think of the women’s movement. I think of the civil rights 

movement. And when I think of all of this, I think how could they 

be possible without our love of humanities. 

They tell me that at a time of economic crisis we should not talk 

about this. At times of economic crisis, this is what really we 

should be talking about, the unity, the identity, the cohesiveness, 

the pride of American people regardless of what ideology or political party they belong to is in this legacy and in this heritage, and 

that is why I want my children and my children’s children to be 

brought up in a place where they can be both a citizen of this great 

country and a citizen of this world. 

And so for me—and I am going to finish very fast, sir, if you 

allow me. I brought two watches in order to finish fast and I still 

did not make it. So let me just go very fast. I wrote my dissertation 

on the proletarian writers of the 1930s, so I know that at a time 

of crisis, in fact through writers’ projects, through federal arts 


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projects, we might not have been able to give too much money to 

humanities but we certainly respected them and put them at the 

forefront of the struggle against the economic and political crisis, 

and that is what we need to do, and that is why I will read from 

this and end. The work of National Endowment for Humanities is 

vital because it keeps open the channels of debate, questioning and 

curiosity, because it keeps alive what we might call the democratic 

imagination, and now more than ever it is important for Americans 

to focus on our Nation’s poetry and its poetic soul, on the dream 

that brought this Nation together to be reminded of this country’s 

great cultural heritage. What more suitable representation of the 

people who came to this land from all parts of the world, bringing 

with them the customs and cultures of their countries of birth, hoping to create a home that can embody them all. 

So, sir, it is in this spirit that I ask you to ratify the budget for 

the National Endowment for Humanities. Thank you for your patience. 

[The statement of Azar Nafisi follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Thank you for your testimony and for 

your eloquence. 

Ms. NAFISI. It is a pleasure. This will be my home, and this is 

why I am here. If it were not for Mark Twain, I do not know where 

I would be. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. Jim? 

Mr. MORAN. Yes, extraordinarily compelling statement. Thank 

you so much, and I think anybody listening to you understands 

why they really ought to read ‘‘Reading Lolita in Teheran.’’ It is so 

insightful. 

Ms. NAFISI. Thank you, sir, and I tell you, your best weapon 

against tyranny is not military but it is the culture of democracy, 

and people in Iran are going to jail and being tortured because they 

read Saul Bellow and Walt Whitman, so I think our children here 

should take a lesson from that. 

Mr. MORAN. I wish they would. Thank you so much. 

Mr. SIMPSON. You cannot leave the room, though, until, I had a 

staff member that wants you to sign her book. 

Next we have Mark Hofflund, who is a friend of mine. I would 

hate to follow her. 

Mr. HOFFLUND. I tell you, Mr. Chairman, I am the son of a 

woman with dual citizenship. I lost her. She passed away about a 

year ago. And I think I heard her voice today for the first time in 

your testimony, so I am incredibly moved. 

Ms. NAFISI. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Well, thank you for being here, Mark. As you 

heard me say before when we were talking about the Civil War, 

that when people from Idaho come out to Washington they ask me 

where to go and I always say Gettysburg, they need to go up there 

and see it. Well, if any of you come to Idaho from Washington, you 

need to go to the Idaho Shakespeare Festival. Mark is the Managing Director of it, and we have been friends for many years and 

he does a fantastic job and really, summer in Boise would not be 

the same without the Shakespeare Festival and the work you do. 

He has also been on the National Endowment for the Arts Council, 

and we appreciate that, and thanks for being here today, Mark. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

ARTS AND HUMANITIES 

WITNESS 

MARK HOFFLUND, MANAGING DIRECTOR, IDAHO SHAKESPEARE FESTIVAL 

Mr. HOFFLUND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Moran, members of the subcommittee, good morning. As Managing Director of Idaho Shakespeare Festival, Chair of the Idaho Commission on the Arts, and 

a board member of the National Assembly of State Arts Agencies, 

I wish to testify on behalf of the National Endowment for the Arts 

requesting $167.5 million in level funding, and to share a story you 

made possible. 

While this is an Idaho story, similar stories are found in every 

state. My opportunity emerged when the chairman of the NEA paid 


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a visit to Idaho strengthening the Nation’s first ongoing infrastructure for the arts, not the arts historically had been missing from 

our Nation. Things of beauty, culture, science, art and imagination 

were so ingrained in the Founders, some would say the pursuit of 

happiness articulated this common appreciation right after life and 

liberty. As for legislative infrastructure dating to the Founders, 

imagine for a moment what it may have been like to sign a Declaration of Independence, declare war, wage war, elect a decade of 

forgotten presidents under Articles of Confederation before ratifying a Constitution and electing a reluctant George Washington, not 

an easy first decade and one with great challenges ahead. 

So under the circumstances, it could seem remarkable for the 

founders to leave a few thoughts on the arts. Perhaps a vision for 

the future was provided by George Washington in words now 

reaching down centuries: ‘‘The arts and sciences are essential to 

the prosperity of the state and to the ornament and happiness of 

human life. They have a primary claim to the encouragement of 

every lover of his country and mankind.’’ In retrospect, the history 

of the United States is replete with public investments in art and 

architecture. 

In our day, another great general having led us through World 

War II signed legislation creating the National Cultural Center Act 

commemorated in the naming of the Kennedy Center’s Eisenhower 

Theater. In the 1960s with the Nation enduring civil unrest not 

seen in a century, President Johnson created and President Nixon 

funded the National Endowment for the Arts. With cities smoldering, leaders being assassinated, college students rioting, some 

getting killed by the public servants meant to protect them, a Cold 

War heating up, despite all this, Roger Stevens founded and the 

second chairman Nancy Hanks grew the NEA in both reputation 

and funding, ever mindful that in dollar comparisons to our national needs for defense, for poverty programs, for health, for welfare or for education, the requirements for the arts are miniscule, 

as Ms. Hanks wrote. 

During civil famine, the seeds of a federal-state arts infrastructure sprouted like spring wheat when 55 state and territorial arts 

agencies began receiving grants from the NEA, and when governors and legislatures took this as incentive to multiply the funding and steer not only new cultural opportunities but greater decision-making to the regional and local levels. President Carter, 

Chairman Biddle and Congress strengthened the federal-state partnership, developing federal recognition of American artists through 

the National Heritage Awards. President Reagan, Chairman 

Hodsoll and Congress established the NEA Jazz Masters, the National Medal of Arts, the Mayor’s Institute on City Design and a 

groundbreaking study on arts education called Toward Civilization. 

As Reagan said, we honor the arts not because we want monuments to our own civilization but because we are a free people. 

With this history, three succeeding Presidents, their NEA leaders 

and Congress navigated the most perilous times at the NEA and 

emerged in all three cases with an arts budget on the rise and an 

increasing federalism. Not only would Jane Alexander visit all 50 

states under President Clinton but Dana Gioia would spend as 

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ington, D.C., strategically improving the NEA under George W. 

Bush with reciprocal support from Congress. As Bush and Gioia 

left office, not only was Congress funding the NEA at greater levels 

and with stronger Congressional support but its opponents had 

changed their minds about the agency as Gioia worked throughout 

federal and state government to catalyze the development of artistic excellence and accessibility for millions of younger Americans, 

thousands of educators, scores of journalists, members of the military and their families, towns and cities across America which libraries, newspapers, schools, civic organizations, businesses and a 

broad section of citizen volunteers collaborated in programs ranging from the Big Read to Poetry Out Loud to Operational Homecoming to Shakespeare in American Communities, ultimately reversing a three-decade decline in American literary participation. 

With equality and excellence, Gioia formed partnerships in every 

Congressional district. 

The NEA is about public engagement, public education, public 

excellence. It neither enforces public values nor entitles public 

goods. It is a rare public infrastructure for which cost may be an 

object but not a specific requirement. The more we provide, the better we all become. In the hands of good public servants from all 

walks of life, it functions like the biblical talents that when not 

buried can be used to return manifold wealth, prosperity and national growth. Transcending factionalism, it is not about Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians or any other vein past or yet to 

come of the American spectrum, it is about how all of us of all 

faiths, backgrounds and politics best practice a culturally diverse 

and politically united federalism. 

Finally, it returns us to the roots of our Founders as an essential 

emblem of creating a system of self-government. We are amid such 

defining times today. The marks of our success will be seen in how 

we separate federal chaff from federal wheat and thereby fill the 

storehouse for future generations not with federal deficit but with 

federal bounty. I would humbly submit that the NEA is an agency 

of federal bounty and that with continued funding, thank you, Mr. 

Chairman, Ranking Member for your actions of the past week, people not only from Idaho, indeed, from all over America will help 

you fill the storehouse. Thank you, sir. 

[The statement of Mark Hofflund follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you, Mark, for being here today. We appreciate it very much. Thanks for your testimony in support of the 

NEA and your history of where we have come from and what we 

have been through with the NEA, so I appreciate it very much. As 

you know, I am a fan. 

Mr. HOFFLUND. We would not be here without you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. And Mr. Moran is the same way. Jim. 

Mr. MORAN. I cannot add to what Mike has said. Not only does 

he provide words of encouragement, he also walks the walk in 

terms of getting the money. I know that is why you are here, but 

these are very extraordinarily articulate and meaningful statements. We thank you. 

Mr. HOFFLUND. Thank you, sir. I will tell you that I come here 

at my own expense, and I am staying with a former Congressman 

from my district, a great admirer of you, and he asked me to please 

give you his highest regards, Representative Orville Hanson. He is 

letting me stay with him while I am in Washington, D.C. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Well, thanks for being here, and we will see you 

at the Shakespeare Festival. 

Next we have Elena Daly, Vice President of DC Affairs, Public 

Lands Foundation. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

BLM, PUBLIC LANDS, WILD HORSES 

WITNESS 

ELENA DALY, VICE PRESIDENT FOR DC AFFAIRS, PUBLIC LANDS 

FOUNDATION 

Ms. DALY. Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We at PLF 

would like to thank you for the opportunity to present your committee with our views regarding the Bureau of Land Management’s 

budget request for fiscal year 2012. 

As a national nonprofit organization comprised principally of retired but still dedicated BLM employees, the PLF has a unique 

body of experience and expertise in the realm of natural resource 

management, and as retirees, we believe we offer an objective and 

non-bureaucratic solution to some issues, although I am feeling 

very bureaucratic after listening to the last very articulate panel. 

We support BLM and its programs but we are independent in 

our views and our requests, and we strive to improve the effectiveness of BLM by encouraging professionalism in its employees and 

increasing both public understanding and proper scientific management of public lands. 

Some of the most significant management challenges for the 

BLM stem from, as you know, particularly with Boise, rapid 

growth and population development in the West, the urbanization 

issue, and we find that with this urbanization comes increased demands on the public lands, not only for recreation but for traditional uses and products as well, and this really complicates an 

agency with a mission as diverse as the Bureau of Land Management. The public lands provide the Nation with opportunities for 

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tional needs for oil, natural gas, coal, non-energy minerals, grazing 

land and timber. Recreation, wildlife, wild horses, cultural resources and special places are also significant attributes of those 

lands. Management activities for BLM contribute to the vitality of 

state and local economies, generating an expected $4.5 billion in 

revenues for 2012, mostly from energy development. 

We also recognize that the Nation is facing some real challenges 

as you all look at budgets and need, and in that light, we are 

pleased at several of the aspects of the overall budget request. In 

particular, we are pleased to see increases for the National Landscape Conservation System and the processes associated with the 

restoration of abandoned mine lands. The NLCS is a compilation 

of unique and incredible landscapes designated for outstanding cultural, ecological and scientific values and range from red rock 

deserts, rocky coasts, deep river canyons and high mountains and 

arctic tundra. Management of this particular group of lands has 

long been underfunded. 

We believe the AML fee combined with the proposed budget increase will provide a process to begin reclaiming both the safety 

and environmental hazards that remain after 150 years of 

hardrock mining on millions of acres in the West. 

We are also pleased to see increases for land acquisition, renewable energy, the Secretary’s Cooperative Landscape Conservation 

Initiative and Youth in the Great Outdoors, and we support the 

budget proposals to recoup the costs of inspection and enforcement 

activities for mineral leases from new fees. 

We are also pleased to see the Secretary’s proposal to eliminate 

the sunset date for the Federal Land Transition Facilitation Act 

and to allow lands identified in newer BLM land-use plans as suitable for disposal. 

However, we do have a couple of concerns. One is in land-use 

planning. Land-use planning for BLM is foundational to decisionmaking. A reduction in monies to provide up-to-date plans hampers 

on-the-ground management because you do not have the latest information at the very time when the West is developing so rapidly. 

The reduction of $8.2 million in this program will have lasting impact on those lands administered by the bureau. Land-use planning 

is the primary tool we have for effecting long-term decision-making 

and giving up that opportunity gives us some concern. 

Alaska Conveyance—the reduction of $17 million from this program will be devastating to the BLM and Alaska and to the U.S. 

government’s commitment to that state, to the native corporations 

and to individual allottees who have been waiting now over 40 

years to have these land issues resolved. This would result in a 20 

percent reduction in land transfer capability and a reduction in 

force and the loss of many of the 638 survey contracts that go to 

native peoples in Alaska. 

And everybody’s favorite, wild horses and burros. We are pleased 

that the Administration has requested sufficient funds to support 

the efforts for this program but are concerned about the unsolvable 

issues that continue to haunt the efforts at management. We would 

like to see Congress step in at some point to address this through 

legislation so that the problems can be surmounted. We would like 

to see the differing opinions, whether it is the wild horse advocates, 


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the government, ranchers, whomever those people may be, come together and really talk about what is manageable in this program 

and what makes sense. The funding for long-term maintenance is 

just not sustainable. 

So we hope these comments and concerns assist you. We appreciate the time and your attention. Thank you very much. 

[The statement of Elena Daly follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you, Elena. We appreciate that. And you 

are right, there are several problems we have got to address, and 

we appreciate you being here and pointing those out. Thank you. 

Jim. 

Mr. MORAN. Yes, just to thank Ms. Daly as well. She did not 

mention it, but she headed the National Landscape Conservation 

System. But we want to thank you for your leadership in that area. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Next, we have Brady Robinson, the Executive Director of Access Fund, Outdoor Alliance. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

OUTDOOR ALLIANCE 

WITNESS 

BRADY ROBINSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ACCESS FUND, 

OUTDOOR ALLIANCE 

Mr. ROBINSON. Hi. 

Mr. SIMPSON. How are you doing today? 

Mr. ROBINSON. I am good. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, honorable 

members of the committee, and Mr. Moran, thank you for this opportunity to talk to you today. 

Mr. SIMPSON. You bet. 

Mr. ROBINSON. My name is Brady Robinson, and I am the executive director of the Access Fund. We are the national nonprofit organization dedicated to climbing and mountaineering access and 

conservations on the climber. We are also a founding member of 

the Outdoor Alliance, which is a coalition of six national memberbased organizations devoted to the conservation and stewardship of 

our Nation’s public lands and waters through responsible humanpowered outdoor recreation. 

The Outdoor Alliance represents the interests of millions of 

Americans who hike, paddle, climb, mountain bike, ski, and snowshoe on our Nation’s public lands and waters. Our collective direct 

membership is over 100,000 and we have a network of 1,400 clubs 

covering every state in the country. 

I have personally dedicated my career to getting people in the 

outdoors. Before coming in the Access Fund, I spent over a decade 

working for Outward Bound. And through my interactions with 

thousands of Outward Bound students, I have personally witnessed 

the transformation and rejuvenation that occurs when people—particularly young people—have the opportunity to unplug and connect with the outdoors. 

The Outdoor Alliance has extensive experience working with federal land managers across the country concerning recreation and 

conservation policies. Our experience shows that adequate funding 

for the Park Service, the Forest Service, and the BLM is required 

to support public access to these public lands and rivers. And while 

federal land managers are currently integrating recreation, conservation, and restoration programs to more effectively manage our 

public lands for the benefit of all Americans, it is clear that budget 

cuts to these agencies would mean less access to and less conservation out of our public land. Underfunded and understaffed land 

managers, when forced to make resource protection and visitor use 


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decisions are more likely to close or highly restrict public access. 

And this problem concerns not only Outdoor Alliance members but 

also hunters and anglers and other user groups. 

My organization, the Access Group, is seen as dynamic at numerous locations across the country such as Williamson Rock and Angeles National Forest, Christmas Tree Pass at the Lake Mead National Recreation area and Castle Rocks in Idaho at the BLM Burley Field office. The Outdoor Alliance believes that with the guidance and momentum of the America’s Great Outdoors Initiative, 

the agencies are poised, if adequately funded, to enhance the public 

enjoyment of high quality public lands and waters like never before. 

Nationwide active outdoor recreation contributes $730 billion annually to the U.S. economy and supports nearly 6.5 million jobs. 

Mr. Chairman, according to the Outdoor Industry Association, active outdoor recreation supports 37,000 jobs in Idaho, generates 

$154 million in annual state tax revenue, and produces $2.2 billion 

annually in retail sales and services across Idaho. That is more 

than five percent of the gross state product. 

We endorse a budget that will support this segment of our economy and adequately fund the Department of Interior and Department of Agriculture, activities that provide adequate outdoor recreation access to public lands and waters. And we offer specific budget recommendations for fiscal year 2012, which can be found in my 

written testimony. 

As an example of what can happen to public access when agencies have inadequate funding, look to the Red River Gorge in the 

Daniel Boone National Forest. Located in southwestern Kentucky, 

the Red River Gorge contains one of the largest concentrations of 

high-quality climbable rock in the United States and attracts visitors from around the world. However, the Forest Service does not 

have the resources to balance all its obligations and still provide 

for the proper management of these world-class climbing opportunities. Inadequate funding for environmental assessments has prevented the Forest Service from stewarding existing recreational 

sites and opening new sites. The Forest Service is unable to assess 

areas that are temporarily closed due to cultural and natural use 

conflicts, which results in de facto long-term closures. 

Climbers, mountain bikers, and other user groups bring muchneeded economic activity to this rural area. Without sufficient 

funding, the U.S. Forest Service cannot afford to conduct the studies or administer the processes which allow for public access. As a 

result, would-be users, the local economy, and the natural resources themselves suffer. And unfortunately, this is all too common. The American people need open public lands for recreation in 

both rural and urban areas for our economy, for our physical, mental, and spiritual health, and to instill an appreciation of our beautiful lands and waters in our children. 

We at the Access Fund have developed positive working relationships with the agencies but we are not their apologists. We are not 

interested in big government bureaucracies, excessive regulation, 

or unneeded services. However, these agencies need basic levels of 

funding to fulfill their important missions. 


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I can only imagine the incredible pressures that all of you are 

under to get government spending under control and I appreciate 

the need for austerity and for discipline. Our recommendations represent the minimum funding level we believe is necessary to keep 

our Nation’s great outdoors open and stewarded for the benefit of 

the American people 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and committee members, for the opportunity to appear before you today. And I stand ready to answer 

any questions you might have. 

[The statement of Brady Robinson follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. We appreciate your testimony and the 

work you do. 

Mr. ROBINSON. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Jim—— 

Mr. MORAN. Another graduate of Outward Bound, which hails— 

Senator Mark Udall, a former colleague, is one of your alumni I 

guess and the most prominent. It is a great program. 

Mr. ROBINSON. Yes. He has been very supportive. 

Mr. MORAN. Yeah. 

Mr. ROBINSON. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Next, we have Bill Chandler, Vice 

President of Government Affairs for the Marine Conservation Biology Institute. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

MARINE CONSERVATION BIOLOGY INSTITUTE 

WITNESS 

BILL CHANDLER, VICE PRESIDENT FOR GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, MARINE CONSERVATION BIOLOGY INSTITUTE 

Mr. CHANDLER. Good morning, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Good morning. How are you doing? 

Mr. CHANDLER. It is a pleasure to be here, Moran, Members of 

the subcommittee. 

I represent Marine Conservation Biology Institute. It is a nonprofit conservation organization based in the Seattle, Washington 

area. We have been involved in the conservation of our Pacific islands and Pacific island territory since 2005. I would like to emphasize to the subcommittee that when President Bush created the 

four national rain monuments out there that he did during his 

term, he significantly increased the responsibilities of the Fish and 

Wildlife Service. The service now has lead responsibility or sole responsibility for about 225,000 additional square miles. Altogether, 

these monuments have increased the size of the refuge system by 

about one-third, which is sort of a startling number except, you 

know, they do not have billions of hunters and fishermen trying to 

get into the refuges out there, but it is a very large area. 

These monuments are home to millions and millions of seabirds, 

rare and abundant corals, some endangered species, and in essence 

they represent a beacon of what pristine ecosystems are supposed 

to look like for other nations of the world that are trying to restore 

their own highly damaged coral island systems throughout the Pacific. In other words, this is a great benchmark—and there are not 

many left—to show the world what these natural systems really 

look like and how they are supposed to function. 

To adequately meet its responsibilities, we estimate that the Service needs an additional $18 million but I am not going to ask 

for all of that today. This would allow them to do several things 

that are not happening right now—for example, to hire adequate 

management personnel, to develop plans for the monuments which 

are, I should point out, two years behind. They have already 

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tation to get out to these islands. They need to keep developing 

plans and implementing them to restore a lot of the damage that 

occurred on the islands in the past from military occupations during World War II. And they need to keep the Midway Airfield open 

and maintained because Congress directed that they do that a 

number of years ago. And finally, they have to provide enforcement 

to these areas, consulting with the Coast Guard and NOAA in 

order to make sure that illegal fishing does not occur in our waters. 

And there is a problem in that regard. I should also say that the 

18 million estimated need does not cover any damages associated 

with the tsunami that swept over some of these places like Midway. 

We are recommending in 2012 a funding level of about 9.03—or just let us round it off to $9 million—for just the monument activities of the Service out there. And this level of funding would provide an additional $.5 million for Midway operations, which they 

need, and the rest would cover the following: managers for two of 

the monuments that do not have them now, a public planner so 

that they can get these management plans teed up and done, continued invasive species removal work at a 2 or 300,000 level, and 

most important—and what I want to emphasize this morning above 

all else—is travel cost to get a contractor bidding party out to two 

islands in the remote islands monument to prepare bids to give estimates on what it would take to get two shipwrecks off those reefs. 

And the problem with the shipwrecks is that they are not just 

sitting there. They are leaching iron. The iron is causing the explosive growth of a couple of nuisance species which are killing corals. 

And at Palmyra Island alone the Fish and Wildlife Service several 

years ago documented 250 acres of pristine corals have been killed 

and they are going to keep dying until they get these shipwrecks 

out and remove the source of the leaching iron. 

I have some pictures that I think most graphically show the subcommittee what has been going on there and I will give—you can 

just flip through these really quickly. The first one is the wreck 

that showed up on Kingman in 2007. It is now disintegrated and 

its iron parts, as I mentioned, are leaching iron into the Kingman 

Reef area. The second picture you see shows the Palmyra wreck, 

and all of that dark blue area in the field is where the corallimorph 

has taken over and killed the corals. And it is spreading. The next 

photo shows what the corallimorph looks like. It is an anemone-like 

species that has basically eliminated the natural corals that are 

there. And then finally, another shot of the devastation that is occurring. 

I will also point out to the subcommittee that the Fish and Wildlife Service has been aware of this problem for a number of years 

but has failed to act. Inaction means more corals are going to die 

and these monuments are going to be further degraded. We frankly 

find this unacceptable and we hope that the committee will give serious consideration to spurring meaningful action on this matter 

this year. 

And my conclusion after studying this for quite a bit is that the 

first thing that we need to do is we need to spend $60,000 or so 

to have the Fish and Wildlife Service fly out a team of salvage contractors so that they can go to the wrecks, figure out what it is 


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going to take, and give the Fish and Wildlife Service an honest estimate about what it would take to move these wrecks. 

In conclusion, I would say that overall the Fish and Wildlife 

Service needs more resources to deal with their added responsibilities out here. These places are important even though people do 

not live on most of them. And we would hope that this would receive favorable consideration by the subcommittee. That concludes 

my testimony and I would be happy to answer any questions regarding this particular issue or any issue out there. 

[The statement of Bill Chandler follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you for your testimony. I am sorry I had to 

step out for just a second, but it is an interesting subject that quite 

honestly I had not spent a lot of time thinking about. So I appreciate you bringing it to our attention. 

Mr. CHANDLER. You are quite welcome. I realize that deep blue 

water is not a big thing that the Fish and Wildlife Service has 

dealt with before, but now they have to because they have been 

mandated to do so by four presidential proclamations. 

Mr. SIMPSON. There is not a lot of deep blue water near Idaho. 

I appreciate it. 

Mr. CHANDLER. Well, you will have to get them to take you out 

to Midway—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. Yeah. 

Mr. CHANDLER [continuing]. Mr. Simpson. That is a fabulous trip 

and it will really give you real appreciation of what is going on out 

there and what the needs are. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I appreciate it. Jim, do you have anything? 

Mr. MORAN. Just that $900 million is a lot of money. But thank 

you for your testimony. 

Mr. CHANDLER. Well, the 900 is for the whole refuge system—— 

Mr. MORAN. I understand. 

Mr. CHANDLER [continuing]. Not for the monuments, sir. 

Mr. MORAN. Right. Yeah. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Next, we have Barbara King, private citizen, BLM 

Land Transfers. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

BLM LAND TRANSFERS 

WITNESS 

BARBARA KING, PRIVATE CITIZEN, BLM LAND TRANSFERS 

Ms. KING. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, 

thank you very much for the opportunity to testify this morning. 

My name is Barb King and I am here to testify against funding the 

BLM Land Exchange program until land exchange regulations regarding public notification in 43 C.F.R. Part 2200 are revised and 

written in plain English according to President Obama’s Executive 

Order 13583 and the Plain Writing Act of 2010, sponsored by Congressman Moran. 

Based on personal experience, I speak unofficially for two groups 

of landowners whose property values are at risk because regulations do not specifically require mailing them BLM formal notices 

of an exchange. The Notice of Exchange Proposal informs the public that an exchange has progressed beyond the feasibility stage 

and the Notice of Decision announces the approval of an exchange 

in the public comment period. 

Interior Secretary Salazar should explain to this subcommittee 

why adjacent landowners to BLM properties proposed for disposal 

and all prospective end owners of the BLM land known to an exchange facilitator are not considered ‘‘appropriate’’ to notify in the 

regulations Subpart 2201 and also why BLM land managers ignore 


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the BLM land exchange handbook, especially chapters four, five, 

seven, and nine relating to this notification issue. 

Adding these two groups of people to BLM’s notification list by 

regulation would end the Department of Interior’s systemic lack of 

transparency about this issue and would be in keeping with Secretary Salazar’s 82-page Open Government Plan. Because of this 

troubling 2009 Government Accountability Office report on the program, #09–611, Congressional House Resolution 111–80 directed 

the Secretary to ensure that BLM’s national land exchange team 

documents in the exchange case file the full disclosure of 

facilitators’ contracts and related agreements. 

Showing his indifference to the directive, the Secretary simply 

reissued to BLM field officers the existing unenforceable full disclosure policy in the handbook. Failure to notify all of these parties 

will perpetuate BLM’s longstanding problem with appraisals when 

a patentee resells the former BLM land at a profit at the expense 

of the Federal Government and other landowners. Given the news 

stories, the GAO reports, departmental reorganizations, and congressional inquiries for over a decade, Secretary Salazar should 

take every step possible to improve this program. Clearly enforcing 

the full disclosure policy is one of them. 

Since the Secretary will not do that, it should be required by regulation and the team made accountable for enforcing it. Specifically, the team should document that all prospective end owners 

were added to the BLM’s mailing list, they were listed on appraisal 

request forms, the appraiser offered them equal opportunity to attend site inspections, and they received the Notice of Decision. All 

of this is necessary to ensure accurate appraisals, fair return to 

taxpayers, and a protection of private property values. 

I respectfully encourage members of this subcommittee and all 

Congressmen and Senators who advocate for land exchanges to 

read the GAO and House Appropriations Committee reports and 

then read Secretary Salazar’s response to them. Having done that, 

I believe you will support legislation requiring these revisions. As 

long as this program is run with contempt for public inquiry and 

congressional scrutiny, it should not be funded. And that is the 

opinion of a taxpayer when we are looking at asking taxpayers in 

50 states to fund projects in 8 states. 

Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, thank you so 

much for this opportunity. 

[The statement of Barbara King follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. You posed some interesting questions 

that I do not have the answer to, obviously. Mr. Moran. 

Mr. MORAN. No, I agree. 

Mr. SIMPSON. We will pose those questions to the right people. 

Ms. KING. Okay. Thank you very much. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I appreciate it. Thank you for your testimony. 

Next, we have Madeleine Pickens, founder of Saving America’s 

Mustangs. Welcome, Madeleine. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

SAVING AMERICA’S MUSTANGS 

WITNESS 

MADELEINE PICKENS, FOUNDER, SAVING AMERICA’S MUSTANGS 

Ms. PICKENS. Thank you. I am honored, Chairman, to be here, 

and Congressman Moran. It is really interesting here today listening to everybody and their monuments and Fish and Wildlife. They 

all have so much. And I am here representing the American mustang. And it is extraordinary that we have to get a life of our own, 

but I think we are here. 

And I stand here as an immigrant to the United States. I was 

born in Iraq. I was fortunate because I dreamed of coming here. I 

fell in love with America. I used to go to movies with my father 

and watch westerns and I could not wait to get here. So many of 

you in this room were born here. You were born rich. You have a 

great history. I think too many of you have forgotten what it is all 

about. 

And so I present to you—I have Chief Arvol Looking Horse, 19th 

generation keeper of the sacred white buffalo calf pipe of the 

Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Nation of the Sioux, and his wife Paula, 

as well as Travis Jackson, Junior. And he represents the Seminole 

Nation from Oklahoma. We are pleased to be also accompanied by 

wounded Army veterans Brian Field and Clay Rankin, along with 

their service dogs Justice and Harley. These are some of our great 

American heroes. And we have Stacy Dagel here. She represents 

all of the American citizens who were not able to attend this hearing. And all of these special people have traveled from all over the 

Nation to be here in support of our wild horses. I am here to realize another dream—on behalf of our American mustang—a permanent home for them called Mustang Monument in Nevada. 

Wild horses and burros are unfortunately a frustration and management dilemma for the Bureau of Land Management. These wild 

animals were designated by Congress as living American historical 

symbols by the Wild Horse and Burro Act, PL 92–195. How have 

these national living symbols of American history been devalued as 

less deserving than a national historic stone monument? Why are 

these wild animals a frustration and dilemma to the Bureau of 

Land Management? It is because the multiple-use culture of the 

Agency encourages commercial and political interest to prevail over 

the interest of wild horses and burros on public lands. I am sure 

that if our national historic monuments or parks were managed by 


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Bureau of Land Management, these public properties, too, would be 

subject to short-term commercial and political interest. 

Through the creation of Mustang Monument, a historic living 

museum, thousands of wild horses and burros could be managed by 

the Department of Interior with an emphasis on protection for and 

public interaction with these magnificent living symbols of American history. Surely this approach is in keeping with the spirit and 

intent of Congress. A living versus stone historic monument is a 

difficult concept for management. But both are equally important 

to sanctify and preserve our American history and culture for future generations of American people. 

A living monument is the missing key to the proper management 

of horses and burros removed from HMA areas, Horse Management 

Areas, which honors the intent and spirit of Congress, as ordered 

in PL 92–195. Over the course of the past three years, I have had 

numerous conversations and meetings with Bureau of Land Management Personnel in Washington and Nevada. They all agree the 

demand for adopting wild horses and burros is inadequate to keep 

up with animals gathered annually. Fertility control has its place, 

but it is not slowing the need to gather thousands of animals annually. The cost of confining gathered horses in feedlots is out of control. The living conditions inhumane and the Agency needs millions 

of dollars more each year to feed the growing herds of wild animals 

in captivity. And the Agency needs new authority to implement a 

new solution. 

So the existing Wild Horse and Burro Program is not sustainable. Every year the program costs the taxpayers millions of dollars 

more. Every year the Agency gathers thousands of horses which 

are not adoptable. And every GAO report on the Wild Horse and 

Burro Program states the same conclusion. The program needs to 

be fixed. 

We have broken out the current cost of the BLM program with 

a significant cost savings with my sanctuary proposal. And I believe you all have that there. With my proposal, the government 

stands to save $607 million. It is amazing. You know, when you 

gather these horses off the range and many of them are mares, 

they are in foal. Those babies are born in captivity. When they are 

born in captivity, you feed them every day hay and water. They 

live another 10 to 20 years. You know, people forget that. When 

they live on the range, they have a shorter life. But that is nature. 

That is how it is supposed to be. So not only have you gathered 

them, but you have now guaranteed yourself another 10 to 15 years 

of looking after them. You have got to do something about it. I 

have a chart here that you all have that you can take and see. 

Quite candidly, the leadership within the Department of Interior 

and Bureau of Land Management feel their hands are tied, tied by 

the language within the Taylor Grazing Act and Wild Horse and 

Burro Act. And these fine men and women are waiting for you to 

provide new direction and authority so they can create these public-private partnerships. Employees within the Bureau of Land 

Management cannot lobby Congress for this new authority but they 

sure would like your approval to relax the Taylor Grazing Act and 

the Wild Horse and Burro Act and create a new opportunity to 

combine large tracts of public lands administered by the Bureau of 


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Land Management with private lands as new homes for the wild 

horses and burros. 

I have discussed this plan with the BLM and they agree with the 

concept. Both Secretary Salazar and Director Bob Abbey have been 

involved working out the details to ensure the plan is ecologically 

sound, economically feasible, and socially attainable. And without 

fail, every western movie I saw as a child always had the same 

ending. The cowboy would rush in and save the day. It is now in 

your hands to be the right cowboy and turn this program around. 

By unanimous decision in 1971 Congress made it clear that the 

wild horse is an American icon and we call it the American mustang. We have with us and I have right here 72,000 emails and letters from the public stating how horrified they are with what the 

BLM is doing and asking for a moratorium on the roundups immediately. This volume of letters is exponentially high and needs to 

be justly delivered to the BLM by way of your ruling. The American public is counting on this Appropriations Committee to take 

action today and give our mustangs back their right to live on the 

range. 

Please remember my website everybody here, 

SavingAmericasMustangs.org. Join us. We have a huge army of 

support now and I am delighted to be here today. I know I am talking to the right cowboy. 

[The statement of Madeleine Pickens follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you for being here, Madeleine. You know, 

we sat in the office and talked about this. There are, as you mentioned, challenges in doing it. The Taylor Grazing Act would need 

to be changed, a few things like that which this committee cannot 

do but the Natural Resources Committee is the one that does that 

work. You point out a true problem that has got to be solved. 

Ms. PICKENS. You know we can solve it. You know we all care 

about the horse. Unfortunately, it got degraded to nothing. And I 

think together we can do this. So you know, we were broke two 

years ago and you came up with billions upon billions of dollars to 

the banks and handed it out overnight, so I am sure this is a whole 

lot cheaper to fix. And I have already bought land. I bought land 

in Nevada. We have got, you know, over half a million acres now. 

We just need to change it from cattle grazing to horse grazing. So 

you know, when we all come forward as Americans here, join us. 

Help us. You are the people with the voice. You can be our John 

Wayne. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. 

Mr. MORAN. Well, thank you, Cowboy Simpson. 

Ms. PICKENS. It is okay. 

Mr. MORAN. As you know, I would love to see your plan work, 

Ms. Pickens, and I appreciate your tenacity and your dedication to 

the American mustang. And we will see what we can do. 

Mr. JACKSON. Mr. Moran. 

Mr. MORAN. Yes, sir? 

Mr. JACKSON. Would you honor me to say a few words, please? 

Mr. MORAN. Mr. Simpson is the chair. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Briefly, yeah. 

Mr. JACKSON. Okay. My name is Travis Jackson, Junior. One 

hundred and fifty one years ago our people were moved from the 

East Coast to now what is Oklahoma. It is a shame that God’s 

creatures, your Bible, does not say anything about, you know, a difference between men. It is just God’s creatures. We all have the 

right to live. We all have the right to survive. One hundred and 

fifty one years ago, someone else wanted our land and they moved 

it away from us. We now live in Oklahoma. But our heart is still. 

We believe in you. We believe in your God. Show us that we are 

right. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Cynthia, did you have—— 

Mrs. LUMMIS. You know, I do. And Mrs. Pickens, I know that 

this is your raison d’eˆtre. But I can tell you that a number of the 

well-meaning concepts that have been implemented by your group 

is damaging the grass resource that is the very lifeblood of the 

mustangs that you so desperately want to help. I come from a state 

that has a large number of these wild horses, Wyoming, and we are 

very reverent when it comes to the Pryor Mountain herd and other 

wild horse lands. But there are so many horses that they are destroying the grass resource and when the grass resource is gone, 

it is gone not only for the horses but for other species—mankind, 

elk, deer, buffalo, and other species that are integral to a vibrant 

ecosystem. 

These ecosystems are fragile. The topsoil is very thin and these 

horses that are not native to this land but were brought in and are 

feral to this land, when they are too numerous, tamp the soil down 


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in a way that requires a change in the way the land is managed. 

And that is because the horse hoof is a solid hoof. The buffalo, elk, 

deer hoof is a split hoof. So when you have the native grazers of 

those lands, which are the elk, deer, buffalo, they knead the soil 

when they graze and walk. And horses tamp it down. So when the 

horses are too numerous, when it rains, they are tamping the soil 

and then the rain runs off. And you can look at studies of grazing 

ungulates that will show the damage that can be done when wild 

horses are too numerous. There are places in Wyoming where they 

are too numerous. 

So I appreciate your coming forward with solutions as opposed 

to saying the horse is more sacred than other species; therefore, we 

want to elevate them above all other species in terms of the management of species. But I would also argue that it is important to 

address these issues realistically. And the Bureau of Land Management is a land management agency. And they are looking out for 

the best interests of the land because the land has to be protected 

in order to be a vibrant resource for all species, native and feral 

horses as well. 

So I would be happy to work with you because I think some of 

the solutions that you have pushed thus far have been detrimental. 

But I also think that some of the ideas that you have going forward 

could be helpful. So although you and I disagree somewhat fundamentally on what should be the role of the wild horse in relation 

to other species, I think we can agree that the current status quo 

is unacceptable and that there needs to be some changes. And I 

hope that you would be willing to work with me. 

Ms. PICKENS. I look forward to, actually, if you do not mind I will 

give you a call and I will come by because I am not quite sure what 

you are referring to what we do not agree with. So I am delighted 

to have met you today. And I will call upon you if I may, I would 

love to chat with you and go over the whole thing because I am 

very confident that there is always a solution to everything in life. 

I actually have a statement perpetuating the myth that wild 

horses are desecrating the public lands. One hundred years ago we 

had two million horses roaming the plains. Perhaps they could 

have desecrated the lands there. Today, we are left with probably 

20 to 30,000 horses. There is no way, as I fly across this country 

every week and look below me, there is not enough of them out 

there to desecrate the land. Some states only have a few hundred. 

How could they be destroying the lands? In states like Nevada, 

where nearly half of the wild horses reside, allocate more than 10 

to 1 acres for cows versus horses. So yet your horses bear the brunt 

of the myth about overgrazing and to continue to tell people that 

they are dying and starving when it is obvious that all gathers that 

nearly all the horses are in good condition is another one of those 

overblown statements that does not pass the straight-face test. 

You know, all this stuff about desecrating the land, I do not 

know where it came from. I have done so much research. It is just 

the saddest thing. And that is why I would be willing to fly out 

there with you and let us spend some time together and get over 

all of these myths. 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Well, I appreciate that. And you two get together 

and work this out if you would because we have used much, much 

more than the five minutes that was accommodated. 

Ms. PICKENS. We deserved it. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Did you have a brief statement you wanted—a 

brief something you wanted to say? Go ahead. 

Mr. LOOKING HORSE. I am the keeper of the sacred pipe and we 

are from the sacred Black Hills, the heart of mother earth. We use 

horses in our ceremony and we have like proof that the horses were 

here during the dinosaur time but that we just know that people 

like ourselves—but we are the first nations here. We have ceremonies. We maintain the environment through our ceremonies, 

through our sacred sites, and we follow the animal nation. And 

right now the white animals are showing their sacred color, which 

is white, and that is why we are coming forth, stepping forward to 

protect the wild horses, all the horses, because in our ceremonies 

they are very sacred to our ceremonies and that is why I come here 

because we need the horses on this sacred land here. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate your testimony today. Next, we have Congressman Dan Burton from Indiana’s 5th Congressional District. 

THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011. 

BLM, WILD HORSES 

WITNESS 

HON. DAN BURTON, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE 

STATE OF INDIANA 

Mr. BURTON. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I apologize for my tardiness. I was a little late getting here so I did not hear all of Ms. 

Pickens’ testimony. It is because I had three committee hearings at 

the same time. And as you know, what we try to do as Members 

of Congress—and I know you would appreciate this as well—is we 

try to make sure that Members of Congress can testify as early as 

possible so that they can make their other obligations in the Congress. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Yes, I know. 

Mr. BURTON. And so I am a little disappointed that we were not 

able to solve that because we have got two governors sitting up in 

one room I am supposed to question. We have—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. Well, I apologize to the gentleman. The schedule 

was put out earlier. If there had been a conflict that we had known 

about, we would have made those arrangements. It is hard to interrupt in the middle of the scheduled hearing. But I understand your 

comments. 

Mr. BURTON. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I appreciate them. I will take them into advice. 

Mr. BURTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to the 

day that you can come before my subcommittee. 

Let me just say, Mr. Chairman, that there are 37,000 wild horses 

on BLM lands and more than 30,000 additional horses that are 

being held in short- and long-term holding facilities. It is costing 

tons of money. I think it has gone from $20 million a year to a $75 


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million request by the President this year. And it is going up. And 

as you know, we have budgetary problems and we are trying to figure out ways to economize. Now the Bureau of Land Management, 

after you were kind enough to allow us to have an amendment to 

the H.R. 1 for $2 million, it sent a message to the Bureau of Land 

Management. And on March the 25th, BLM issued a request for 

proposals to establish wild horse ecosanctuaries to be established 

on private lands. 

Now, it is interesting that Ms. Pickens has been working on this 

for many years and she proposed this very same program three 

years ago and the Bureau of Land Management turned a deaf ear 

and would not even talk to her about that or at least give her a 

fair hearing on it. And now because we have shone a little light on 

the subject, they are asking for almost exactly what she was proposing three years ago. She is really concerned about the wild 

horses and she is more than willing to put her money where her 

mouth is. She has bought two ranches out there and she has got 

permits for another 4 or 500,000 acres. And I think she stated very 

clearly—to answer your questions—that instead of millions of 

horses like we used to have on the plains, we have just maybe 30, 

40,000 out there now. And for them to do damage to the ecosystem 

stretches credulity. 

And I know that many of the ranchers and others are very concerned about their cattle and their grazing lands and everything, 

and I think that is something that should be looked into and 

should be worked on. But at the same time to put these horses in 

pens, to move them hundreds and hundreds of miles away from 

their habitat to these pens and pay up to $2,500 a year per horse 

to take care of them when Ms. Pickens could do it for much, much 

less if an agreement could be reached. And in addition, she has indicated she would take steps to make sure that the herds do not 

expand so it would not hurt the ecosystem. And she can do that 

through various methods to make sure that they do not reproduce. 

So I will submit this for the record, Mr. Chairman, but I really 

believe that we are talking about something that should be dealt 

with. The Bureau of Land Management should deal with it. It 

would be economically advantageous for the United States of America because it would cost a lot less money. It would save the horses. 

I do not think it would damage the ecosystem. And there are people out there who are willing, in addition to Ms. Pickens, who are 

willing to get together with her and form associations that will pay 

almost all of the freight for this. So it is more of a political thing 

than it is a cost thing as far as to the government, other than what 

they are already spending, which is about $70-some million a year. 

And with that, I will submit the rest of my statement for the 

record, and if you have any questions, I would be glad to answer 

them for you. 

[The statement of Hon. Dan Burton follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Well, I appreciate that. And I appreciate your concern about what we are spending on this wild horses program. Everybody is concerned about the increased cost that we have been 

spending on wild horses and burros and how we can address it. 

And I have looked at the proposal by Ms. Pickens with some interest. There are some challenges in that it would take a change in 

the Taylor Grazing Act, in probably the Wild Horse and Burro Act, 

and those types of things, which we cannot do here. But I hope that 

the BLM will sit down and if they have got problems with it or 

questions about it, at least raise those so we will know what those 

issues are and maybe they can be addressed. 

Mr. BURTON. And let me just say one more thing, Mr. Chairman. 

You are in a position of authority, along with Mr. Moran, and I 

would appreciate it if you could talk to the leadership at the Bureau of Land Management and ask them to really get serious with 

Ms. Pickens and take a hard look at her plan because they have 

just said publicly that they wanted to come up with something very 

similar to that. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Yeah. 

Mr. BURTON. And try to make sure that they are willing to work 

with her to help solve this problem. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I have no problem doing that. I would like to know 

so that if—they may come up with an answer to me and I go, gee, 

I had not thought about that and you make absolute sense. I do 

not know. I would like to know what their concerns are and stuff 

and, you know, so I have the right answers. 

Mr. BURTON. Okay. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Because we all want to deal with this issue that 

is getting more and more expensive I think and taking up a larger 

share of our budget. So I appreciate it and thank you for your interest in it. 

Mr. BURTON. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. SIMPSON. You bet. Hearing will be adjourned for today. 


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FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

TESTIMONY OF INTERESTED INDIVIDUALS AND 

ORGANIZATIONS 

Mr. SIMPSON. The committee will come to order. I am in order, 

since I am the committee today. We are going to have a hectic 

schedule today because we are going to be interrupted by votes 

about every hour or so on the various budget proposals that are 

over there, and we just had our first vote, which is why we are five 

minutes late, and I talked to Mr. Moran, who is on his way to vote 

and he said he will be back in just a few minutes and to go ahead 

and start. 

So good morning, and welcome to a second day of public witness 

hearings. This morning the subcommittee will hear from a crosssection of individuals representing a wide variety of issues addressed by this subcommittee. Each witness will be provided with 

five minutes to present their testimony. Members will be provided 

an opportunity to ask questions of our witnesses, but in the interest of time, the chair would request that we keep things moving 

along. It is likely that we will have House floor votes but we will 

do the best we can to get through this morning. 

I am happy now to yield to my friend, Mr. Moran, who is not 

here. Thank you, Mr. Moran, for your opening statement. He will 

be back shortly. 

Our first witness today is Shelley Roberts, CEO of the Idaho 

Rural Water Association. How are you doing, Shelley? 

Ms. ROBERTS. Good. How are you? 

Mr. SIMPSON. Good. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY 

WITNESS 

SHELLEY ROBERTS, CEO, IDAHO RURAL WATER ASSOCIATION 

Ms. ROBERTS. I would like to thank you and the members of the 

subcommittee for the opportunity to appear before you to discuss 

the Environmental Protection Agency’s technical assistance of 

training and source water protection initiatives that directly benefit rural America. My name is Shelley Roberts and I am the CEO 

of Idaho Rural Water Association representing over 350 small and 

rural communities that have to comply with all EPA regulations. 

There are similar associations throughout all the states. 

Before I begin, I would like to thank you and your staff for all 

the support and guidance you have offered. We are very grateful. 

My purpose in appearing before you is to simply emphasize the 

importance of providing small drinking water systems training and 


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technical assistance in complying with the ever-expanding requirements of the Safe Drinking Water Act. Of the billions of dollars 

provided to EPA by the subcommittee each year, small rural communities will tell you they see and feel the most benefit from the 

dollars provided to rural water programs. It is simple: Small communities want to ensure quality drinking water. Local water supplies are operated by people who are locally elected and whose families drink the water every day. However, they need assistance in 

a form they can understand. Funding provided to rural water programs across the country and in Idaho allow for spending to be 

more results-oriented, non-regulatory, less bureaucratic, more effective and less expensive. 

Currently, 92 percent of the 50,000 community water systems in 

our Nation serve populations of less than 10,000. We urge you to 

continue funding the training and technical assistance and source 

water protection initiatives at the authorized level of $15 million. 

In Idaho, we have nearly 2,000 EPA-regulated drinking water 

systems of which only 20 serve populations over 10,000 people. 

That means that 1,947 water systems in Idaho serve small communities. There are similar comparisons on other states. I have witnessed a direct correlation between this assistance and increased 

compliance and sustainable activities for the utilities in Idaho. EPA 

has also made similar findings across the country. In the long run, 

water systems that are maintained and properly managed actually 

save the community and the Federal Government money. 

The Federal Government mandates operators to be certified and 

receive continuing education each year. The only place small communities can receive that training is through state rural water associations. Last year, Idaho Rural Water offered 38 training sessions throughout Idaho and had nearly 1,100 attendees. In your 

district alone, we provided training to 318 water officials representing 115 different communities. As our communities learned 

about the potential EPA funding cut, we had an immediate outcry 

from our members, community leaders and even other state and 

federal agencies. This stack of letters here represents just a small 

portion of the communities that will be adversely impacted both financially and technically as a result of loss of EPA funding this 

year. Our phones are ringing off the hook with people trying to enroll for classes that are being closed due to space limitations. 

One example of the onsite assistance Idaho Rural Water has provided occurred in Hazelton in southern Idaho. The Hazelton lowincome housing facility has only 40 water connections and is typical of the over 10,000 communities assisted each year by state 

rural water associations. The Hazelton Housing Authority was 

struggling to find a licensed operator and approached Rural Water 

for help. Rural Water provided one-on-one personal training to help 

someone at the housing authority pass the test so that the small 

housing facility could continue to serve these families. There are 

many, many examples just like this where small communities turn 

to Rural Water to help when all other resources have been exhausted and communities are trying their best to remain in compliance with state and federal regulations. 

We urge you to continue to fund this small part of EPA’s budget. 

Just one-half of 1 percent of their budget benefits thousands of 


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communities and millions of people that depend on it for safe 

drinking water. Thank you for your time. 

[The statement of Shelley Roberts follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. I appreciate your testimony. You will 

find, I think, that this committee and I in particular have been 

very supportive of the work you do and the Rural Water Association is very important to us, and the difficulty we have, as you 

know, has been this earmark ban. It has always been looked at as 

an earmark in the past, and now trying to figure out how to fund 

it without having it labeled an earmark is the challenge that we 

are having in that, but we are working on it and I will try to make 

sure that we continue the funding for this program so that you can 

do the important work you do out in the rural communities. So I 

appreciate it very much. 

Ms. ROBERTS. Yes, and we thank you for all your support. 

Mr. SIMPSON. You bet. Thank you. 

Next we have Dr. Anthony Szema, the Assistant Professor of 

Medicine and Surgery, Stony Brook School of Medicine. Welcome. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY 

WITNESS 

DR. ANTHONY M. SZEMA, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE AND 

SURGERY, SUNY STONY BROOK SCHOOL OF MEDICINE 

Mr. SZEMA. Thank you, Congressman Simpson, for the invitation 

to testify. I am Dr. Anthony Szema, the Assistant Professor of Medicine and Surgery at the State University of New York at Stony 

Brook School of Medicine. My board certifications are in pulmonary 

diseases, critical care medicine, internal medicine and clinical adult 

and pediatric allergy and immunology, and my undergraduate degree is in industrial and management engineering from Rensselaer 

Polytechnic Institute in Troy, New York. 

Between 2004 and 2009, I was an NIH K08 Mentored Clinical 

Scientist Award recipient, and although I am chief of the allergy 

section at the Northport Veterans Affairs Medical Center in 

Northport, New York, I am testifying today on behalf of the American Thoracic Society, which is an independently incorporated 

international education and research scientific society focusing on 

respiratory, critical care and sleep medicine. The American Thoracic Society has 14,000 members who help prevent and fight respiratory disease around the globe through research, education, patient care and advocacy initiatives. It was founded in 2005, and we 

want to decrease morbidity and mortality—death—from respiratory 

diseases, life-threatening acute illnesses and sleep-related breathing disorders. So as such, we have a keen interest in the impact 

that the Environmental Protection Agency’s regulatory enforcement 

actions have on public health. 

I have four points. First is the EPA’s standard-setting power 

plant air toxic rule. The EPA is in the process of setting a number 

of important public health standards under the auspices of the 

Clean Air Act. Most recently, the EPA released a proposed rule 

that will for the first time address toxic air pollution released from 

coal- and oil-fired power plants. The proposed rule will remove tons 

of toxic pollutants including mercury, lead, nickel, dioxins and acid 

gases from the air we breathe. All are known to have immediate 


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and long-term health effects including health effects of children. 

Today, more than 60 percent of power plant operators have acted 

responsibly and installed pollution control equipment to reduce 

these toxic emissions. The proposed rule will require all power 

plants to install readily available, modern pollution control technology by 2016. The American Thoracic Society strongly supports 

this proposed rule and urges Congress to allow the EPA to move 

forward with implementation of the Power Plant Air Toxic Rule. 

Number two: EPA standard-setting on ozone and particulate 

matter. The American Thoracic Society expects the Obama Administration to release two additional important public health standards that will address ozone and particulate matter air pollution. 

Both these pollutants are regulated by the Clean Air Act and have 

a significant impact on our Nation’s health. Hundreds of studies 

have demonstrated that exposure to ozone and particulate matter 

air pollution is bad for your health. These pollutants cause premature death, asthma attacks, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease exacerbations, ischemic heart disease exacerbations, emergency room visits, missed school and work days, and as a dentist, 

you know periodontal disease associated with cigarette smoking. 

There is conclusive research that demonstrates that the current 

EPA standard for ozone and particulate matter need to be tightened. We at the American Thoracic Society urge the subcommittee 

to recognize this important body of work and provide the EPA with 

the resources it needs to issue and enforce revised standards for 

ozone and particulate matter air pollution. 

Number three: EPA National Ambient Air Quality Standards 

monitoring. In addition to establishing standards for air pollution 

limits, the EPA is also charged with developing and maintaining a 

network of monitors which measure the level of pollution in our 

Nation’s air. Unfortunately, we know the current monitoring is inadequate. There are not enough monitors to accurately gauge air 

pollution associated with highways and other areas that are congested with automobiles and this means we are underestimating 

the air pollution to which we are exposed and hence underappreciating the risk that air pollution poses to America’s health. Fortunately, there are new technologies available including satellite 

monitoring, which can greatly enhance the accuracy and comprehensiveness of the EPA’s monitoring efforts. The American Thoracic Society strongly urges Congress to provide the EPA with the 

funding necessary to evaluate and revamp its current clean air pollution monitoring network. 

Number four: EPA and climate change. The American Thoracic 

Society is disappointed in the direction that Congress is headed 

when it comes to issues related to climate change. Our children 

and grandchildren will pay the price for Congress’s inability to address climate change. Climate change will bring severe adverse 

human health effects. Research has demonstrated the spread of 

malaria to higher elevations due to rising temperatures. Studies 

have demonstrated that high concentrations of carbon dioxide, or 

CO2 gas, from higher temperatures and a length in spring season 

will mean a more severe prolonged allergy season, including those 

with allergic asthma. High temperatures will also increase heat-related deaths in both major cities and rural areas. The EPA has 


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composed reasonable policies that would begin to address climate 

change. If Congress attempts to remove, delay or circumscribe the 

EPA’s authority to address this significant public health issue, the 

American Thoracic Society would like to send a univocal, unambiguous message that obstructionism will only increase the problem 

and add to the toll on human health and raise the economic cost 

associated with addressing climate change. We at the American 

Thoracic Society also believe that the success of the EPA Clean Air 

Act holds valuable lessons for Congress and the EPA as well as 

both bodies should consider how to deal with climate change. The 

technology used to reduce traditional pollutants like ozone and particulate air matter can also be used to address greenhouse gas 

emissions. 

The American Thoracic Society continues to play an active role 

in addressing global climate change, and in May 2010 the organization hosted a workshop on the respiratory health effects of global 

climate change chaired by Dr. William Ron of New York University. We expect the workshop report to be finished shortly, and will 

provide, number one, guidance to the known and likely respiratory 

health effects of climate change, and number two, pose valuable research questions to further our understanding of how climate 

change is impacting human health. 

Congressman Simpson, respectfully, on behalf of the American 

Thoracic Society, I appreciate the opportunity to comment on the 

fiscal year 2012 budget of the Environmental Protection Agency before you and Congressman Moran on the Committee of Appropriations, Subcommittee on Interior, Environment, and Related Agencies. 

[The statement of Anthony M. Szema follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you for your testimony. My guess is, just 

offhand, I do not know this, but my guess is just offhand, you guys 

did not like the dump truck of H.R. 1. Thank you for your testimony. We appreciate it. 

Do you have anything, Mr. Moran? 

Mr. MORAN. No. 

Mr. SZEMA. Clean air is good, dirty air is bad. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Our next witness is Ryan Schmitt, Chairman of 

the Board of the National Utility Contractors Association. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY 

WITNESS 

RYAN SCHMITT, CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD, NATIONAL UTILITY CONTRACTORS ASSOCIATION (NUCA) 

Mr. SCHMITT. Chairman Simpson, Ranking Member Moran and 

honorable members of the subcommittee who are here in spirit, my 

name is Ryan Schmitt. I am the President of Petticoat-Schmitt 

Civil Contractors in Jacksonville, Florida. Our company does water 

and sewer projects throughout northeast Florida and southeast 

Georgia. I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this hearing 

on behalf of NUCA. NUCA is the oldest and largest national trade 

association, representing the utility construction and excavation industries. NUCA also serves as the chair of the Clean Water Coalition, a coalition of 37 organizations representing contractors, designers, suppliers and manufacturers, labor and other organizations who support sound environmental infrastructure. 

I am here today to convey NUCA’s support for the inclusion of $3.5 billion for the EPA’s State Revolving Fund programs in the 

fiscal year 2012 Interior/Environment appropriations measures. 

Specifically, we ask the subcommittee to include $2.1 billion for the 

Clean Water SRF and $1.4 billion for the Drinking Water SRF. 

These investment levels would restore the fiscal year 2010 levels 

and would provide critical funding for these economically sound 

programs in a time when our country is in dire need of increased 

infrastructure investment. 

The construction industry continues to face the highest unemployment rates than any other industry sector. The Bureau of 

Labor Statistics report for March indicated unemployment in construction is now over 20 percent and over 2 million construction 

workers out of work. My home State of Florida has lost 350,000 

construction jobs in the last five years, which represents over 52 

percent of the available construction workforce. This staggering 

statistic has drastically affected the overall economy of our region, 

and this alleged turnaround that some people speak of is nowhere 

to be seen and we do not see it coming. It is very discouraging to 

continually report to my employees that we have got no upcoming 

work on the books. 

Although SRF projects are recognized for their success in enhancing public health and environmental protection, it is their economic benefits that are largely overlooked. Clean water projects 

help the economy by creating jobs, generating economic activity 


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and expanding the local tax base. It is important to note that the 

jobs offered in this industry are good, high-paying jobs that are 

provided right here in America. These cannot be shipped overseas. 

In 2009, the Clean Water Council released a study on job creation and enhanced economic activity that comes with investment 

in water and wastewater. The study, titled ‘‘Sudden Impact,’’ which 

I have right here, shows that a $1 billion investment in water and 

sewer projects results in one, the creation of 27,000 new jobs with 

average annual earnings of over $50,000; two, total national output 

for demand of products and services in all industries with $3.46 billion; three, personal household income between $1.01 and $1.06 billion; and lastly, approximately $82.4 million in local and state tax 

revenue. 

The need to invest in America’s underground environmental infrastructure is well known, clearly documented and has broad support. According to the EPA, $298 billion is needed in the next 20 

years to support America’s need for wastewater infrastructure and 

$334 billion over the same time period is needed for the drinking 

water infrastructure. 

You know, what is out of sight and out of mind to most people 

is clearly visible to NUCA members like myself, and the view from 

the trenches is not pleasant. Right now, my company is working on 

a water and sewer project just outside of downtown Jacksonville, 

and we happen to be working in front of a very nice restaurant, 

a restaurant you might visit you were dining with our mayor, as 

he likes to frequent this organization. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Not anymore. 

Mr. SCHMITT. As you can see from those pictures, in this section 

of pipe, a water pipe, mind you, that was taken out of service that 

provided water to that restaurant, there was over one inch of 

tuberculated material built up in that existing water line. 

Now, fortunately, the patrons have been safe because this fine 

restaurant put in a filtration system for their water. However, why 

is it in a developed country that we have got to filter our water systems and why do countless American families who cannot afford a 

filtration system have to work from tuberculated water mains? 

Well, the answer is, they do not have to. A robust SRF program 

can provide the drinking water and wastewater systems that 

Americans deserve. A healthy SRF plays a key role in enhancing 

public health, safety, protecting the environment and maintaining 

a strong economic base. Currently, the SRF programs face just 

under a $1 billion cut in the 2011 Continuing Resolution and many 

in Congress are calling for reinstating the 2008 spending levels 

next year. That would mean almost $2 billion would be cut from 

the SRF program over two years. That is a 67 percent reduction 

in the Clean Water SRF and a 40 percent cut to the Drinking 

Water SRF since 2010. To that end, NUCA strongly encourages the 

subcommittee to include $2.1 billion and $1.4 billion to the Clean 

Water SRF and Drinking Water, SRF, respectively. 

Thank you for the opportunity to submit testimony for the 

record. 

[The statement of Ryan Schmitt follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you for your testimony. We appreciate it 

very much. Surprisingly, I agree with what you said. The problem 

is, we have the dual problems of infrastructure needs throughout 

this country and not just water and sewer, but I have given the 

speech many times—it would take too long to give it now—but 

locks and dams and harbors and inland waterway maintenance, 

the grid system, roads and bridges, our whole infrastructure is 

crumbling and we have to do something about it, and we have got 

to find a better way to fund it. That is what I have been working 

on with some other members, how are we going to fund this in the 

future. 

Actually, when you look at the needs, a $1 billion cut is barely 

a dent in the overall needs. We have got to find a better way to 

address it in the future so that we have the resources to address 

this kind of stuff, and the reason the public does not cry out about 

this is that nobody thinks about it when they turn on their water 

tap and water comes out. They never think about how it gets there. 

Nobody ever thinks about what happens when they flush their toilet. So it is a big problem. I think it is the biggest challenging facing the country in the future, to tell you the truth. So I appreciate 

your testimony. 

Mr. SCHMITT. Yes, I concur. The EPA is talking about $35 million a year and here we are talking about, you know, $3.5 billion a 

year. 

Mr. SIMPSON. That is right. 

Mr. SCHMITT. It is a huge spread. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Yes, that is right. I appreciate it. 

Mr. SCHMITT. Thank you for your support. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Jim. 

Mr. MORAN. I agree with the chairman very much. It does occur to me that so many people do not mind paying $2 for a plastic bottle of bottled water when a very modest assessment on the water 

that they pay for from the municipal sources would enable us to 

rebuild our infrastructure, which is in drastic need. I do not know 

why we do not do that. What we have, of course, is a revolving 

fund. The municipalities borrow that money from the state fund 

and then pay it back. I said on the Floor yesterday, it is beyond 

me why these governors, some of them, were so critical of federal 

spending and support of our cuts and the revolving funds and yet 

it is money out of their pockets that is desperately needed to rebuild our water infrastructure. Just as we need our plumbing in 

our own home to be working functionally, the public’s plumbing 

under the ground needs to be working functionally as well. This is 

a devastating picture, but I suspect it is not all that unique. 

But I agree with the chairman. We have got to figure out a better way of financing. Thank you very much for your testimony. 

Mr. SCHMITT. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. 

Our next witness is Richard Opper, President and Director of the 

Environmental Council of the States, Montana Department of Environmental Quality. Is that right? 

Mr. OPPER. That is correct. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. 

Mr. OPPER. Good morning, Mr. Chairman. 


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Mr. SIMPSON. How is the weather in Montana? 

Mr. OPPER. It is not as much of a springtime as I am experiencing here. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Imagine that. 

Mr. OPPER. I am finally starting to thaw out, Mr. Chairman. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY 

WITNESS 

RICHARD OPPER, PRESIDENT/DIRECTOR, ENVIRONMENTAL COUNCIL 

OF THE STATES, MONTANA DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL 

QUALITY 

Mr. OPPER. Good morning to you, and good morning, Representative Moran, and thank you for having me here, and as you said, 

I am here to testify on behalf of the states and territorial environmental agencies that are members of ECOS, the Environmental 

Council of States, and I am lucky to be the Director of the Montana 

Department of Environmental Quality. I often say Montana is the 

most beautiful state in the country, but you being from Idaho, you 

might take some exception to that. 

Mr. SIMPSON. A little bit. 

Mr. OPPER. And I do not want to get off on the wrong foot. 

Mr. MORAN. The only other guy I have heard say that is Rep. 

Rechberg. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Montana is a gorgeous, gorgeous state, and I have 

never understood why on the eastern part of our State of Idaho 

they did not just take that line and go straight north. 

Mr. MORAN. There you go. 

Mr. OPPER. There actually is a story about that. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I know. I know there is. 

Mr. OPPER. The story being that we bought off the surveyors 

with a lot of alcohol. 

Mr. MORAN. Is that a true story? 

Mr. OPPER. Well, I do not know if it true or not but I am sure 

spreading it, and I have heard it many times. 

Mr. MORAN. It is a gorgeous state, but Idaho is too. 

Mr. SIMPSON. They thought they were on the continental divide 

and they missed it. 

Mr. OPPER. They missed it, and they missed it because they were 

drunk, so you know what the currency is in my state. I think I digress. 

I just have two points to make. They are fairly simple. One is 

that I think you should understand that what seems to you perhaps like cuts to EPA very often translate to cuts to the states instead. In fact, in the past we have seen as much as 105 percent 

of the cuts that Congress imposed on EPA came out of the portion 

of EPA’s budget that goes to the States. Now, this current EPA has 

shown a willingness to share some of that pain in the budget cuts. 

They are absorbing some themselves, to their credit, but still, the 

bulk of the cuts that you impose on EPA tend to go to the states. 

The second point I want to make is, if you want to get the best 

environmental protection for the fewest number of dollars, you 


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need to make sure that EPA can continue to fund the states to do 

their work, and I will explain very briefly here. So the money that 

you allocate to EPA really goes into a couple of pots. Some of it 

goes directly to EPA to fund that agency’s work. Another portion 

of it, it varies from year to year, but it is less than half, does go 

to the states to enable them to do their work. As we have heard, 

the State and Tribal Grants program, STAG money that goes to 

the states really is divided into two different areas. Some of it goes 

into the SRF program so that we can invest in infrastructure, the 

kind we discussed earlier for drinking water and wastewater facilities, usually in the form of low-interest loans. The other portion of 

EPA’s STAG budget that goes to the states is for the categorical 

grants that pays the states to oversee the programs that are delegated to us from the Federal Government from EPA. 

So, again, it is important that this categorical grant portion of 

EPA’s budget be maintained so the states can do their work. The 

states do almost all of the permitting, they do almost all of the enforcement, inspections, data collection for EPA. We do almost all of 

it, and we do it for a reason. We do it because we are better, we 

are cheaper and faster than the Federal Government, and I think 

everybody acknowledges that including EPA. That is why they delegate so many of their programs to us. A typical federal employee 

makes about 50 percent more than a state employee who has similar qualifications, does the same kind of work, which begs the question, why am I working for the state. I do not know. Also, the state 

through their fee programs, through their general fund tend to pay 

about 80 percent of the programs and 20 percent comes from the 

Federal Government. That is a typical state. So what this means 

is, there are some states that are thinking of giving programs back 

to the Federal Government. Idaho is one of them actually. Montana 

has given a program back to EPA and we saw some disastrous results, which I could tell you about if we had more time. But the 

Federal Government really cannot afford to take these programs 

back because the states contribute so much. If we give it back to 

the Federal Government, it is going to cost the Federal Government five to six times as much to run these programs as it costs 

the states. It is not efficient. We are a bargain. 

So I am going to cut this a little bit short. You know, I am happy 

to answer any questions for you. The states for some reasons I cannot explain at this point for the next couple of years are probably 

able to absorb cuts to the SRF program or the STAG grant. The 

states are more able to do that than they are able to absorb cuts 

to the categorical grants. Any more cuts to the categorical grants 

are going to come at an expense to the environment. That is an important point you need to understand. 

Anyway, I am here to urge you to adopt EPA’s 2012 budget for 

the sake of efficiency, for the sake of prudent management and for 

environmental protection. It is a good budget when it comes to the 

categorical grants. So that is all I have, and I am certainly available to answer any questions. 

[The statement of Richard Opper follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. I appreciate your testimony. I have talked with 

Toni Hardesty out in Idaho about this same thing. 

Mr. OPPER. I am crazy about Toni, by the way. She is marvelous. 

Mr. SIMPSON. She does a great job. And I rely on her for a lot 

of information about how things are working, but you are right, 

there are Members of Congress who are upset with EPA, that is 

a mild way to put it, and consequently they would like to just 

eliminate their budget. Unfortunately, as we discovered as we tried 

to put together both H.R. 1 and this latest one that we thought, 

you cannot do that because oftentimes you are not getting at what 

you want to get at. What happens is, just as you said, those cuts 

are passed down to the states and then those programs that actually go out and repair this kind of stuff and do the air quality monitoring, et cetera, et cetera, that is where the cuts occur, and that 

is what we do not want to do. So it has got to be more strategic 

than what some members want to do, but as you saw in the last, 

I guess when H.R. 1 was proposed, there were, I think it was 22 

amendments or something like that that were aimed directly at the 

EPA that passed. I think that was a lot of venting by members that 

were upset with things that had happened in their region or their 

area or whatever, and hopefully we will be more thoughtful when 

we bring the Interior budget down this year, and we will certainly 

take into consideration your testimony and what you said, because 

we do not want to hurt the programs that are being done I think 

effectively and efficiently by the states. 

Mr. OPPER. Well, thank you for recognizing that, Mr. Chairman. 

I appreciate that very much. 

Mr. SIMPSON. You bet. Jim. 

Mr. MORAN. The testimony was very good. The conversational 

tone is particularly effective too, incidentally. Thank you. 

Mr. OPPER. I know no other way. 

Mr. SIMPSON. That is the way all Montanans are. Thank you. 

Next is Craig—— 

Mr. SCHIFFRIES. Craig Schiffries. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Okay, Mr. Schiffries, Director of Geoscience Policy 

at Geological Society of America. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

U.S. GEOLOGICAL SURVEY 

WITNESS 

CRAIG SCHIFFRIES, PH.D., DIRECTOR FOR GEOSCIENCE POLICY, GEOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF AMERICA (GSA) 

Mr. SCHIFFRIES. Chairman Simpson, Mr. Moran, members of the 

subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today about 

the U.S. Geological Survey. My name is Craig Schiffries and I serve 

as Director for Geoscience Policy at the Geological Society of America. 

The Geological Society of America urges Congress to appropriate at least $1.2 billion for the U.S. Geological Survey in fiscal year 

2012. The USGS is one of the Nation’s premier science agencies. It 

addresses many of society’s greatest challenges including mineral 

and energy resources, natural hazards, climate change and water 


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availability and quality. Quite simply, the USGS benefits every 

American every day. The magnitude 9.0 earthquake and tsunami 

that devastated Japan on March 11th emphatically demonstrates 

the value of robust natural hazards monitoring and warning systems and the need for increased funding for the USGS. 

Science and technology are engines of economic prosperity, environmental quality and national security. Federal investments in research pay substantial dividends. According to the National Academies report, Rising above the Gathering Storm, as much as 85 

percent of the measured growth in U.S. income per capita was due 

to technological change. In 2010, the National Academies issued an 

updated report, Above the Gathering Storm Revisited, which says 

it would be impossible not to recognize the great difficulty of carrying out the Gathering Storm recommendations such as doubling 

the research budget in today’s fiscal environment. However, it must 

be emphasized that actions such as doubling the research budget 

are investments that will need to be made if the Nation is to maintain economic strength to provide citizens health care, Social Security, national security and more. One seemingly relevant analogy 

is that a non-solution to making an overweight aircraft 

flightworthy is to remove an engine. Likewise, the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform headed by Erskine 

Bowles and Alan Simpson said cut and invest to promote economic 

growth and keep America competitive. We should cut the red tape 

and unproductive government spending that hinders job creation 

and jobs. At the same time, we must invest in education, infrastructure and high-value research and development to help our 

economy grow, keep us globally competitive and make it easier for 

businesses to create jobs. 

Earth science is a critical component of the overall science and 

technology enterprise. Strong support for earth science in general 

and the U.S. Geological Survey in particular are required to stimulate innovations that fuel the economy, provide security and enhance the quality of life. 

Science and scientific integrity advanced through the combination of two recent developments at the U.S. Department of the Interior. Secretary Salazar issued a new five-year strategic plan that 

for the first time elevates science to one of five mission areas for 

the entire department. The Interior Department also issued a comprehensive scientific integrity program. These developments are 

cause for optimism but the Geological Society of America expects 

that the elevation of science to a mission area will guide investments that are reflected in improved budget requests for the U.S. 

Geological Survey. 

The U.S. Geological Survey addresses many of society’s greatest 

challenges, and I would like to mention just two today. A failure 

to prevent natural hazards from becoming natural disasters will increase future expenditures for disaster recovery and response. Recent natural disasters provide unmistakable evidence that the 

United States remains vulnerable to staggering losses. The magnitude 9.0 earthquake and tsunami that devastated Japan on 

March 11th, the magnitude 7.0 earthquake that killed more than 

200,000 people in Haiti last year, and the small volcanic eruptions 

in Iceland that disrupted global air traffic last year provide compelVerDate Mar 15 2010 04:23 Jun 30, 2011 Jkt 066982 PO 00000 Frm 00160 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A982P2.XXX A982P2

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ling evidence that the United States needs to take further actions 

to reduce risks from natural hazards. An improved scientific understanding of geological hazards will produce future losses through 

better forecasts of their occurrence and magnitude. We urge Congress to increase funding for the USGS to modernize and upgrade 

its natural hazards monitoring and warning systems. 

Widespread deployment of new energy technologies can reduce 

greenhouse gas emissions, mitigate climate change and reduce dependence on foreign oil, and minerals and energy resources are inextricably intertwined because many new energy technologies such 

as wind turbines and solar cells depend on rare earth elements and 

other critical minerals that currently lack diversified sources of 

supply. China accounts for more than 95 percent of the world production of rare earth elements although it has only 36 percent of 

the identified world reserves, according to the USGS. A renewed 

federal commitment to innovative research, information and education on mineral and energy resources is needed to address these 

issues. 

President Obama’s fiscal year 2012 budget request for the USGS is $1.118 billion, a decrease of $15 million, or 1.3 percent, below the 

USGS budget request for fiscal year 2011. Now, that is a slight increase in the total USGS budget request for fiscal year 2012 compared to the fiscal year 2010 enacted level. The 2012 budget request contains $89.1 million in budget cuts in core science programs that would be offset by increases in other areas. The proposed budget cuts would have significant negative impacts on the 

scientific capabilities of the USGS. Proposed reductions in the fiscal 

year 2012 budget request include $9.6 million for mineral resources, $8.9 million for national water quality assessment, $4.7 

million for earthquake hazards. 

It appears that responsibilities for Landsat satellites have been 

transferred from NASA to USGS without a corresponding transfer 

of budget authority. A $48 million increase for national land imaging would be offset by decreases for core USGS programs. This 

trend cannot continue without compromising the mission of the 

U.S. Geological Survey. The Geological Society of America urges 

Congress to appropriate at least $1.2 billion for the USGS in fiscal 

year 2012. The USGS budget has been nearly stagnant in real dollars since 1996. The USGS budget for 2010 was below the USGS 

budget for 2001 in real dollars, and during this time natural hazards, mineral and energy resources, and water availability and 

quality have become increasingly important to the Nation. 

Thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony about the 

U.S. Geological Survey. The Geological Society of America is grateful to the House Interior Appropriations Subcommittee for its leadership in strengthening the USGS over many years. We urge you 

to strengthen the USGS further again this year. I would be happy 

to answer any questions. 

[The statement of Craig Schiffries follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you for your testimony. I am kind of a fan 

of the USGS and what they do. They are a great organization. I 

think they are being run well, and I was not very happy with the 

request in the President’s budget for 2012 either, but we will be 

looking at it. I am concerned about the Landsat satellite and transfer, as you said, the responsibility with no money that goes along 

with it. We will be looking at that, and also we may have some additional responsibilities we wish for the USGS to take on, but we 

will not do that without corresponding resources for them to do it. 

Mr. MORAN. I am in complete agreement with the chairman. The 

Landsat responsibility being shifted to USGS without an appropriate corresponding shift of financial resources was wrong, and we 

cannot afford these kinds of cuts to scientific research that USGS 

performs so ably. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you for your testimony. 

Mr. SCHIFFRIES. Thank you very much. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Patrick Natale, Executive Director of the American 

Society of Civil Engineers, as opposed to the uncivil engineers. 

Mr. NATALE. Some engineers are not. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY, U.S. 

GEOLOGICAL SURVEY 

WITNESS 

PATRICK NATALE, P.E., EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMERICAN SOCIETY 

OF CIVIL ENGINEERS 

Mr. NATALE. Mr. Chairman, good morning, Representative 

Moran. It is a pleasure to be in front of Representative Moran, my 

Congressman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. He is mine too, actually. Although I vote in Idaho, 

I do live over in his district. 

Mr. NATALE. I appreciate both of your comments, your comments 

that you made earlier about the importance of infrastructure. That 

is what ASCE has been talking about for many years. My name is 

Patrick Natale. I am the Executive Director of the American Society of Civil Engineers and I am a registered professional engineer 

in New Jersey. I actually live in New Jersey and Alexandria. I am 

really pleased to be talking about these issues that are before you 

today about EPA funding and the USGS funding. I think these are 

critical to our future and to the health and well-being of our citizens of this country. 

The concerns that we have with some of the budget cuts that are 

in the proposed budget could be devastating for water infrastructure, as we talked about. You heard some great examples earlier 

by the prior speakers. But looking at the cuts of what the Clean 

Water Act and the Safe Drinking Water Act are being reduced to 

$700 million and $842 million, respectively, or a cut of 66 percent 

in one and 39 percent in the other. That is huge cuts to critical 

issues that impact our health, safety and welfare, which is pretty 

important to all of us. Each year as we do not do something, we 

are making the condition worse. Infrastructure, as we wait to repair it, the conditions later on are even worse. 


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When we did a report card in 2005, we found the needs for infra- structure to be $1.6 trillion to improve infrastructure in all areas. 

When we did the report card again in 2009, the price tag went up 

to $2.2 trillion. That was the cost of non-action or not enough action. We need to be paying attention to these critical areas, and we 

feel that there is a lot of data out there besides our report card. 

The report that was put together by the Bush Administration in 

2002 looking at the need for our systems that was presented to 

EPA indicated that there was a need for system improvement in 

investment going forward. 

We feel that this is a time when the Federal Government needs 

to be stepping up participation, not reducing it. We are going backwards at a time that is critical to our success. And it is one of these 

things, you wait, pay now, or pay a lot more later on. We need to 

be paying attention to those things. We have seen reports that indicated the need for the Nation to invest $298 billion as of January 

2008 in clean water needs, and we are not funding that. We have 

needs for replacing wastewater treatment plants. The pipes need 

repairing. We saw a great example of that a few moments ago. We 

need to buy new pipes, install new pipes, and we have to look at 

issues of combined stormwater, what the impacts of that are, and 

invest in stormwater management. What are we doing to make this 

a better country and keep the concerns of our citizens intact? 

We need to be looking at investing more money. Over the next 

20 years, the numbers can be staggering, but a comment was made 

earlier about the bottled water versus tap water. You are paying 

4,000 times the cost of bottled water to drinking water. A slight increase in funding would be very valuable to improve the quality of 

the supply and we could avoid some of the conditions that we have 

here. 

Our system is aging. We need to invest in that. We believe that 

the importance of doing this will help the citizens going forward 

and we can grow the Nation. We heard a lot of good examples before about the employment that is provided by doing infrastructure 

projects. And the thing I really like about it, they are domestic jobs 

when we do employment. So I think it is a really good opportunity. 

With the Nation facing $400 to $500 billion investment gap in 

wastewater and drinking water in the next 20 years, now is not the 

time to cut, now is the time to invest in our future, and I do not 

like to use the spending word, I like to use ‘‘invest,’’ because this 

is about investing. The infrastructure that we have built in the 

past, we are living off it today and we are benefiting from that. 

I understand the concerns that Congress has dealing with the 

budget gap and dealing with the deficit but it is not the time to 

cut back. ASCE recommends an appropriation of $2 billion for the 

Clean Water SRF and appropriation of $1.5 billion for the Drinking 

Water SRF in 2012. 

Now, briefly, a couple of comments on the USGS, and I think we 

heard some really good comments about that by the last speaker, 

but we really feel it is important that USGS collects a lot of important scientific data that helps us make some good decisions, us as 

a country, on vital water resources, prediction of earthquakes and 

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lier about the reductions of where they are. We believe that we 

ought to be maintaining the integrity of our scientific data collection so that we can improve again the quality of service. ASCE recommends that the appropriations of $1.2 billion should be in the 

fiscal year 2012 budget for the USGS. 

Mr. Chairman, that concludes my remarks. I will be glad to answer any questions. 

[The statement of Patrick Natale follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you, Patrick. I appreciate your testimony. 

As we said earlier, we do not disagree with you. It is a matter of 

the budget deficit is real and we have to deal with that, and we 

have to find a better way to fund this, a long-term funding source. 

Mr. NATALE. Absolutely. ASCE next week are putting together a 

group of a lot of different parties together. We are bringing labor, 

we are bringing environmental groups in, we are bringing the U.S. 

Chamber, and we are going to be doing a visioning session of what 

is infrastructure looking like in the future, and we think this will 

be really good data for the country to take a look at and where do 

we go from here, how do we get there, and your concerns about 

funding, that is one of the issues we need to talk about. There are 

funding opportunities but we need to be thinking out of the box 

and we need to break the barriers. We cannot constantly say no 

new income. You are not going to do it. Let’s do it wisely. So we 

are hoping that within the next couple of weeks we will have more 

data to provide to the Congress so you can make some good decisions going forward. 

Mr. SIMPSON. We know that there are problems. It is trying to 

find an acceptable funding source. We have been working on some 

things which include some revenue enhancements, but I will tell 

you, they are not very popular, but some of the things we are going 

to do are not going to be very popular but it has got to be done. 

I appreciate it. Thank you. Jim. 

Mr. MORAN. Put me on that bill when you are ready. And frankly, this is better testimony than we get from the agency for these 

programs. It brings home the need and the relative pittance that 

we are providing, albeit important. It does not seem as though it 

is an area we should be cutting, but again, I appreciate your speaking up. I wish some of the governors would speak up as much because it is money out of their pocket when we cut these programs. 

It is a state revolving fund. But anyway, this is very good testimony. Thank you. 

Mr. NATALE. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. 

The next witness is Conrad Anker, who manages athlete programs for North Face. How are you doing? 

Mr. ANKER. Things are well. Greetings. 

Mr. SIMPSON. You bet. Good to see you. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT, PUBLIC LANDS, LWCF 

WITNESS 

CONRAD ANKER, MANAGES ATHLETE PROGRAMS FOR NORTH FACE, 

LWCF COALITION 

Mr. ANKER. Mr. Chairman and members, thank you for the opportunity to speak on behalf of funding for the Land and Water 

Conservation Fund. I join with the LWCF Coalition, business and 

civil leaders, sportsmen and recreationists, conservationists and 

many others across the Nation in urging you to provide vital funding for LWCF in fiscal year 2012. 


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America can simply not afford to lose the national recreational 

and other public opportunities LWCF provides or the activity it injects in the American economy. This program touches every state 

and every American. It protects our most treasured places from our 

Civil War heritage at Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania to the Sawtooth National Recreation Area to the California desert, working 

ranches, state, local parks and trails. 

I am a professional mountain climber by trade. From multiple 

ascents to Denali, the highest point in America, to Everest, the 

highest point on our planet, I have experienced nature in its raw 

and unbridled form. I find no greater joy than being in a far and 

remote place preparing for a challenging ascent. I have had the 

good fortune to combine my personal passion for the outdoors with 

my career. For the past 27 years, I have worked with the North 

Face, an outdoor apparel equipment company based in California 

with annual sales of $1.4 billion and over 425 employees. We have 

a retail store in Boise, Idaho. Today I manage the athlete program, 

which encourages and supports outdoor participation. The North 

Face is very aware that the attributes of nature are part of our 

brand DNA. It is important to our industry that we have places for 

our customers to enjoy our products. 

In the past 11 years, the North Face has led Vanity Fair Corporation, the parent company, in growth. In these tough economic 

times when families need to cut back, people are willing to invest 

in outdoor recreation. Families understand that being outdoors is 

a wise investment that reaps benefits to their health and wellbeing. In turn, this spending supports jobs and drives economic vibrancy in our communities. 

The outdoor industry is one of America’s fastest growing economic sectors. Without a metric like housing starts for the construction industry, its contributions to the health of the American 

economy are not widely recognized. Our industry is highly recession resistant, contributing over $730 billion to the American economy each year and generating $88 billion in annual state and federal tax revenues. Over 6.5 million American jobs are supported by 

the active outdoor recreation economy. The outdoor sector is a 

major part of the U.S. economy and America still dominates this 

globally and provides sustained economic growth in communities, 

rural and urban, across America. 

Whether one is climbing Mount Everest, visiting a national park, 

fishing a favorite stream, the personal motivation is the same. We 

go outdoors to challenge ourselves and to come back refreshed. Everywhere I go, I meet people who seek the connection to the outdoors to sustain and inspire them in their daily lives. Outdoor experiences inspire and nourish the human spirit. In children, these 

experiences foster creativity and confidence that nurture the entrepreneurial spirit and a lifetime of fitness instilled by early access 

to outdoor has incalculable quality of life and public health benefits 

to individuals and our society as a whole. 

Each year, the Land and Water Conservation Fund protects the 

integrity of our public lands. It funds the highest priority now-ornever purchases over our national parks, forests, refuges, national 

trails corridors and other public lands. It provides critical access to 

public lands and water for recreation, hunting and fishing. It 


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leverages state and matching dollars to provide close-to-home 

recreation through statewide LWCF grants for parks, ball fields, 

trails, Forest Legacy grants, working forest and timber jobs while 

ensuring public access to recreation. 

LWCF is the only conservation offset from oil and gas drilling in federal waters. With over $6 billion annually in offshore royalties, 

I urge you to honor the longstanding Congressional intent to dedicate a small portion of these revenues to their intended purpose. 

Significant cuts to LWCF experienced in the fiscal year 2011 budget will affect outdoor recreation projects and jobs and communities 

across the country. Please cut in fiscal year 2012 to reverse these 

cuts. 

America’s public lands heritage, be it a corner park or Yosemite, 

is critical to supporting the American spirit of innovation, dedication and motivation. In the words of Theodore Roosevelt, of all the 

questions which come before this Nation short of the actual preservation of its existence in a great war, there is none which compares 

in importance to the great central task of leaving this land even 

a better land for our descendants than it is for us. In these challenging economic times, ensuring access to the outdoors is ever 

more essential to maintain our quality of life and supporting our 

communities. LWCF is not only a wise economic investment but 

one that we must make for ourselves and our children. Thank you. 

[The statement of Conrad Anker follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Thanks for your testimony. I appreciate it very much. Obviously if I did not think that outdoor recreation and the Land and Water Conservation Fund were very important, I would not live in Idaho. It does have some challenges. 

Some people are concerned that it is buying more land in states 

that are already heavily owned by the Federal Government, and 

that is something we have to get around. But I appreciate your testimony. 

Mr. MORAN. I do as well, and am dropping a bill today that 

would charge a fee for plastic bags because they have such an adverse impact upon the environment, and the revenue would go to 

Land and Water Conservation Fund. I know there are other ways 

of finding revenue for it, but just as we do with water infrastructure, I do think we are going to have to find other sources of revenue that are directly related because Land and Water Conservation Fund is terribly important. We have $900 million in the fiscal 

year 2012 budget but in order to get that the administration had 

to squeeze money from other programs that are very important as 

well. But thanks for your testimony. 

Mr. SIMPSON. And I can tell you that having talked to Secretary 

Salazar, this is one of his top priorities, so we will work with him. 

Mr. ANKER. Great. Addressing inholdings is a great way of making it more efficient. A copy of my book. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Okay. I appreciate it. Thank you. 

Mr. MORAN. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Next we have Jim Blomquist, Chairman of the 

Board of the Wilderness Land Trust. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT, PUBLIC LANDS 

WITNESS 

JIM BLOMQUIST, CHAIRMAN, BOARD OF DIRECTORS, WILDERNESS 

LAND TRUST 

Mr. BLOMQUIST. Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member Mr. Moran, 

my name is Jim Blomquist. I am a volunteer chair of the Wilderness Land Trust. Our president, it is his wife’s 60th birthday and 

they had a longstanding commitment to go to Costa Rica, so it is 

hard to stand in the way of such a celebration, so I agreed to come 

here to Washington. 

We are just a small nonprofit. We have two staff and two consultants. Our board is bigger than our organization. And what we 

do is focus on buying from willing sellers inholdings in designated 

federal wilderness areas or ones that are congressionally proposed 

that are close to fruition. You know, we do not want to get ourselves into buying land in places that are years and years away 

from designation. And I am really here to thank you for in the last 

few years putting in a line item a fund to support inholdings acquisition. That item, having money in the budget available to agencies 

for them to decide which projects to go forward, but that is vital 

to our work. What we have learned in years of working with local 

landowners who would like to sell their properties that are located 

within wilderness areas, what we have learned is that acquisition 


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opportunities really come sort of in a generational basis, you know, 

this was grandfather’s land, you know, there is a lot of emotional 

attachment, this is the land that was, you know, in Idaho, these 

are lands that are originally homesteaded, and parting with those 

lands is not an easy decision often and it is not something that you 

can sit back and say oh, this will come along in a couple years 

when we have the money or we have, you know, people paying attention to it. And so a group like ours, you know, we try to remain 

close to all the people who own such lands and make it clear to 

them that we are available to help if they are interested in selling 

it and moving it into ownership by the United States, and it has 

really been a great benefit. 

A few years ago, there was no such fund. There was no such 

money available. It was all done through specific appropriations, 

and it was much more difficult to do, and we really appreciate that. 

What we have been asking for is a fund about $3 million to $5 million for each of the federal land management agencies, one that 

would include all sorts of inholdings acquisitions. We just do wilderness. But there are probably other reasons and other properties. 

That is what we really focus on. 

But we appreciate your support. We hope that you will continue 

in this effort in the future. It has really made a big difference in 

wilderness. You know, we see this effort as really keeping the 

promise that wilderness is. Inholdings sometimes cost agencies additional money because they have to deal with the fact that there 

are other landowners in the area. Landowners often become really 

frustrated because they have some view of what they would like to 

do that is really inconsistent with what the agency wants to do and 

it, you know, has the potential to degrade the wilderness experience, and the reason we have set aside these wilderness areas is 

because they provide solace and opportunity to get out by yourself. 

I know you are a wilderness user, you know, that you do not 

really get in Washington, D.C. And so when we can free a wilderness area from a potential threat of a development or land that 

could be developed, it really delivers that promise that wilderness 

has. You know, we have protected areas that are very remote that 

require a drive on a road miles and miles through the wilderness. 

There was one in California where it is a several-mile ride up to 

a hunting cabin. We just acquired that. We hope to be able to turn 

that over to the United States soon. And then we have had some 

that are, you know, at the beginning of the wilderness area, right 

at the edge of it, which would provide public access to the area and 

provide the best access. And so it is a range of areas, range of reasons why people sell. You know, we try not to get into the middle 

of the wilderness fight. That is for other people. But we try to 

make sure that the wilderness areas that we have are managed the 

best they can. 

So thank you very much. I really, really appreciate it. 

[The statement of Jim Blomquist follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. I appreciate the work you do. There 

are some inholdings in a variety of areas that need to be taken care 

of, and the Owyhees that you mentioned is—— 

Mr. BLOMQUIST. We own several parcels right now. 

Mr. SIMPSON. And that was an important part of the deal when 

they made the Owyhee Canyon lands the wilderness area that it 

is, but there are other areas also that are not wilderness areas. If 

you go down the South Fork of the Snake River in Idaho, you can 

imagine what it would like look had we not been able to do some 

land purchases along there and some conservation easements and 

other types of things. There would be cabins all down that. And I 

understand why because I would like to have one there. But you 

would not want to destroy what you see when you go down that, 

so I appreciate you. Thank you. 

Mr. MORAN. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Next is Alan Rowsome, Director of Conservation 

Fund for The Wilderness Society. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

LAND AND WATER CONSERVATION FUND 

WITNESS 

ALAN ROWSOME, DIRECTOR OF CONSERVATION FUNDING, THE WILDERNESS SOCIETY 

Mr. ROWSOME. My name is Alan Rowsome. I am Director of Conservation Funding for The Wilderness Society, and on behalf of our 

535,000 members and supporters, I would like to thank the chairman, Ranking Member Moran and the rest of the subcommittee for 

their efforts on the Interior/Environment budget for fiscal year 

2012. I would also like to thank all your hardworking and dedicated staff for their efforts over the past several months, and we 

know this has been a trying time. Our fiscal situation makes yours 

a difficult job with very difficult choices, and we thank you for all 

that you do. 

Because these are tough times, it is critically important to make 

the right investments in conservation programs that support our 

national recreation economy and local communities all across the 

country while at the same time protecting our land, water and 

wildlife for future generations. 

One of the programs that best exemplifies these investments is 

the Land and Water Conservation Fund. It is The Wilderness Society’s highest priority within the Interior budget. LWCF is paid for 

from offshore oil revenues but has been consistently underfunded 

over its 46-year history, this despite the fact that LWCF has been 

hugely successful in every state and every Congressional district 

while garnering significant bipartisan support nationwide. LWCF 

is a critical tool the agencies can use to maximize efficiencies and 

to save critical management dollars. Here are two quick examples. 

The acquisition of the Rocky Fork tract in Tennessee’s Cherokee 

National Forest has reduced firefighting costs, noxious weed treatments, watershed restoration, boundary management, reduced risk 

of trespass and encroachment, and lowered costs from road and 


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trailhead closure construction and maintenance. All told, these cost 

savings would likely amount to over 500,000 management dollars. 

The block of wetlands ACEC in Colorado is an example of crossagency collaboration between BLM, the Park Service and the Fish 

and Wildlife Service to protect critical habitat for a number of 

threatened species. Acquiring this tract would help ensure that 

these species are kept off the endangered list, saving significant 

agency management dollars as well as keeping this area open to 

recreation and other local economic uses. 

These projects are examples of LWCF success that need continued investment to alleviate threats, cut costs and protect important 

lands and waters. We support the President’s request to fully fund 

LWCF in 2012 and look forward to working with the committee to 

keep LWCF strong. 

And if I can make my first of probably several gratuitous pitches 

here, my first opportunity to witness LWCF at work was in fact on 

a float down the Upper Snake South Fork with members of your 

staff, members from Senator Crapo’s and Senator Risch’s staff, and 

what a great example of how this program can work and be successful, and there are examples of that all across the country. 

The Wilderness Society also urges full funding for the Collaborative Forest Landscape Restoration Plan to support projects like 

the Selway Middle Fork in Idaho, which was one of the 10 projects 

selected last year. It is a 1.4-million-acre project that was collaboratively developed with the involvement of diverse interest groups. 

Restoration activities include commercial logging and community 

fire protection, road upgrades and decommissioning, and culvert replacement and noxious weed treatments. This project will bring 

400 much-needed jobs to Idaho and provide timber to local mills. 

We also support the Administration’s fiscal year 2012 increase of $50 million for the National Landscape Conservation System to 

provide for greater visitor safety and to allow for resource management work to be completed in a more timely manner at places like 

Morley Nelson Snake River Birds of Prey National Conservation 

Area in Idaho and Canyons of the Ancients National Monument in 

Colorado, which hosts the highest concentration of archaeological 

sites in the country. 

We were disappointed that the fiscal year 2011 spending bill cut 

funding in behalf for the Forest Service’s Legacy Road and Trails 

Remediation program. Cuts like this in the future will imperil 

projects like in Idaho, where tribes, advisory committees and land 

managers are working together to restore habitat for economically 

important cutthroat and steelhead trout populations. Work was 

performed by private contractors, creating family wage jobs and decommissioning high-risk roads helped limit both environmental 

damage and long-term maintenance. 

Also disappointing in the fiscal year 2011 budget was the inclusion of a funding limitation on the BLM’s new wildland policy. We 

are very appreciative of the chairman’s support of wilderness in 

Idaho and we hope to work with you to ensure this provision is not 

included in the fiscal year 2012 budget. 

Finally, TWS is a strong proponent of transitioning our country 

to a sustainable energy economy by developing our energy resources quickly and responsibly. We believe renewable energy is an 


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appropriate use of the public lands when sited in areas screened 

for habitat, resource or cultural conflicts. This past year, the Department approved nine solar energy projects which combined will 

provide over 7,300 jobs. Cuts to the Department’s renewable energy 

program would put projects and jobs at risk. 

We know the committee has tough decisions ahead and we appreciate all of your work on behalf of the lands, waters and wildlife 

that all Americans enjoy and are part of our shared heritage, so 

thank you for the opportunity to testify and I would be happy to 

take any questions you have. 

[The statement of Alan Rowsome follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you for your testimony. I appreciate it very 

much. Let me just say since you mentioned the Wild Lands policy, 

let me give you about a two-second why the funding prohibition 

was included in H.R. 1. In talking with the Secretary, I understand 

what he is trying to do but I think it will make it more difficult 

to actually resolve some of the wilderness debates that are going 

on across the country, and I sat with the Secretary and talked to 

him about that. I think he was pretty well aware that this was 

coming. There are other members, particularly western members, 

who have some concerns about it. My concerns are that we need 

to get on with resolving some of these debates about the wilderness 

study area and what is going to be wilderness and what is not and 

all that kind of stuff which, as you know, I have been working on 

in Idaho, and I think putting that policy in place makes it harder 

to resolve those debates. So I am willing to and want to work with 

you to see if we can figure out a way to do this that makes sense. 

Mr. ROWSOME. Yes, I think we would like to do that. I think 

there are a number of ways that we could come together and work 

on it along with the BLM, so I look forward to working with you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I appreciate it. Thank you. 

Mr. MORAN. As you know, we deferred to your judgment yesterday on the C.R., but I am sure we will continue to revisit the policy 

with regard to Wild Lands. It is good testimony. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. We were going to make everything south of the Potomac here Wild Lands but they would not go for that. 

Mr. ROWSOME. We would support that. That would be great. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. 

Next we have Tom Kiernan, President of the National Parks 

Conservation Association. How are you doing? Good to see you. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

NATIONAL PARKS AND THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE 

WITNESS 

TOM KIERNAN, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL PARKS CONSERVATION ASSOCIATION 

Mr. KIERNAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Great to be here. 

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Moran. It 

is wonderful to be here. Since 1919, NPCA has been the leading 

voice of the American public in protecting our national parks, so on 

behalf of our over 600,000 members and supporters, it is great to 

be here to testify. 

I want to first make a comment about the overarching budgetary 

challenges that obviously you are facing, and I want to foremost 

thank you. Within the budgetary constraints that you are dealing 

with, you have prioritized national parks and the National Park 

Service operating budget as best you can, and we want to applaud 

that. We understand that you get it about the importance of the 

Park Service operating budget, so thank you, and frankly, thank 

you for your work going forward. We know you will do the very 

best you can in protecting the Park Service operating budget. 

I also want to acknowledge within the recent budgetary challenges the shutdown, how virtually it seemed to us every article 


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out there talking about the shutdown referred to the impact on national parks and that the parks, the Washington Monument, Grand 

Canyon, et cetera, would be closed. The parks are so very special, 

and where did President Obama go Saturday morning to say the 

government was at work? He was at a national park at the Lincoln 

Memorial, so they are very special. As Ken Burns said in his sevenpart documentary, they are uniquely American, uniquely democratic. They are the soul of America. 

So within that context, we want to talk about the operating 

budget a bit more and then put in a plug for LWCF and the RTCA. 

The operating budget is NPCA’s highest priority. You will recall 

well it was four, five or six years ago where the parks faced over 

an $800 million annual funding shortfall. We had a period at which 

National Park Service rangers were endangered species in our national parks. We had dirty and broken restrooms. We had visitors 

centers that were closed. We had dangerous roads. We had deteriorating historic artifacts. And with that backdrop, President Bush 

proposed the idea of a centennial initiative from 2008 through 

2016. He proposed $100 million increase each year to enhance and 

better protect our national parks. So in fiscal year 2008, that was 

approved by Congress. In fiscal year 2009, another $100 million increase. In 2010, President Obama continued that proposal, and 

that as well was approved. 

As a result of those increases, we were able to see in a number 

of parks a return of park rangers, if you will. Just as one example 

in Shenandoah, their permanent staff was historically around 50. 

It had dropped to 26. It had been cut in half. But with those increases, it started coming back. What we want to most have happen is avoid going back to that era when we had rangers as endangered rangers and shut visitors centers. That is what we want to 

avoid. 

So going forward, we are looking for $100 million increase. We 

understand that that is very, very unlikely, so most importantly, 

we want to avoid any further cuts that would get back to a period 

at which you see cartoons in newspapers about the only time people seeing a park ranger is at the entrance gate taking the fee. 

That is what we want to avoid. 

In addition to the benefit for the visitors and for the parks with 

the operating budget, it also does lead to significant economic activity in rural America. Every dollar that is invested in the parks 

yields at least a $4 increase in economic activity surrounding the 

park. There was a recent study done that the Idaho Statesman reported on March 14th that showed at Yellowstone, over 5,000 private sector sectors outside of the park, at Craters of the Moon, over 

100 jobs outside of the park, Grand Teton, over 6,000 jobs in the 

private sector as a result of Park Service funding and activity. So 

America’s parks create American jobs. 

A third reason on the operating budget, the importance of it, is 

just look at the polling of the American public. A couple years ago, 

Harris did a poll asking the American public the most admired federal agencies. The National Park Service, the number one most admired agency by the American people ahead of the armed forces, 

ahead of Social Security. The American people in other polls went 

on to say even in the tough fiscal times that we have right now, 


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a strong bipartisan majority, 73 percent, believe it is important 

that the parks are fully restored in time for their centennial in 

2016. 

So that is our strong support for the operating budget. I do want 

to echo some previous testimonies on the Land and Water Conservation Fund. We do support full funding there and would just 

emphasize that funding of the Land and Water Conservation Fund 

does enable purchases from private inholders inside the parks, willing sellers. By doing that, you reduce the management burden on 

the national parks. It improves their ability to control invasives, to 

deal with wildfires, to make recreational access, and a good example that you know is the Grand Teton land exchange that is before 

you. By making that exchange possible, it will reduce the long-term 

management burden on the parks, making it more efficient and 

more effective. 

I do want to put, as I said, that plug in for some of the small 

programs, the Rails to Trails Conservation Assistance program, 

RTCA, small dollar amount, huge impact, so I would you would go 

for an increase there. 

In closing, I would just mention parks have been referred to as 

the 394 branch campuses of the world’s greatest university. What 

we want to do is have a situation where that world’s greatest university has the faculty that it needs. We do not want to go back 

to a scenario where the world’s greatest university does not have 

faculty. 

So thank you very much for your great work and how much we 

look forward to continue working with you to protect the parks. 

[The statement of Tom Kiernan follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Thank you for the work you do. You 

know I am a supporter of the parks as I think everybody on this 

committee, and we will do what we can. These are challenging 

budget times but we will do what we can to make sure that we do 

not go back to, as you said, a time when the rangers are endangered species. 

Mr. KIERNAN. Exactly. Thank you very much. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Other questions? Thank you. 

Mr. KIERNAN. Thank you very much. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Tom Cassidy, Director of Federal Land Programs 

for the Nature Conservancy. How are you doing, Tom? 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

LAND AND WATER CONSERVATION FUND 

WITNESS 

TOM CASSIDY, DIRECTOR OF FEDERAL LAND PROGRAMS, THE NATURE CONSERVANCY 

Mr. CASSIDY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee. I appreciate this opportunity to present The Nature 

Conservancy’s recommendations for fiscal year 2012 appropriations. 

The Nature Conservancy is an international nonprofit conservation organization working around the world to protect ecologically 

important lands and waters for nature and people. I will highlight 

today only a few aspects of my written testimony. 

Plainly, this an unusual budget year and a very challenging fiscal environment. The conservancy recognizes the need for fiscal 

austerity. However, we do not believe that conservation programs 

should suffer from disproportionate and extreme reductions. Our 

budget recommendations this year, and this is different, do not exceed the budget request except for a few instances in which we recommend fiscal year 2010 funding levels. We look forward to working with you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, as you 

address the ongoing needs for conservation investments that are 

necessary to sustain our Nation’s heritage of natural resources and 

the economic vitality of communities across the Nation. 

We are an enthusiastic supporter of the President’s request to 

fully fund the Land and Water Conservation Fund and the mix of 

programs it supports. We are especially interested in the competitive stateside program and would like to acknowledge the version 

of this program that was proposed last year by Ranking Member 

Moran. We are hopeful that increased funding for LWCF can also 

be the catalyst for the kind of cooperative and community-based 

conservation programs that are called for in the President’s America Great Outdoors initiative. 

Our priorities this year include continuing phased acquisition of 

projects at Hell’s Canyon National Recreation Area, the Montana 

Legacy project and Arizona’s Shield Ranch. We are also pleased to 

support the Administration’s proposal for significant increases, for 

significant investments in conservation easements on the working 

ranches of the Flint Hills Conservation Area in Kansas and also 

the Rocky Mountain Front Conservation Area. Both projects exemVerDate Mar 15 2010 04:23 Jun 30, 2011 Jkt 066982 PO 00000 Frm 00200 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A982P2.XXX A982P2

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plify landscape-scale conservation through the cost-effective means 

of conservation easements. 

This year’s Forest Legacy priorities include Idaho’s Boundary 

Connections project and continuing the phased acquisition of Kentucky’s Big Rivers Corridor and New York’s Follensby Pond. 

We also support the President’s request for the Cooperative Endangered Species Conservation Fund. The conservancy and its 

partners have used this program to secure key habitat for numerous threatened endangered and at-risk species and thus help avoid 

conflicts over ESA issues. This program has been used to provide 

permanent habitat protection through conservation easements on 

high-priority private lands such as in northern Idaho’s Kootenai 

Valley. 

Fish, wildlife and their habitats are and will continue to be profoundly impacted by climate change regardless of our success in reducing greenhouse gas emissions. If we are to get ahead of such 

change to avoid disastrous losses in critical habitat and the species 

that depend on that habitat, we must develop the place-based 

science to make informed cost-effective management investments. 

We welcome the President’s and this committee’s commitment to 

both the USGS Climate Science Centers and the Landscape Conservation Cooperatives. 

Now, there is one program for which we seek funding that is not 

in the President’s budget, and that is the National Wildlife Refuge 

Fund, and we agree with you, Mr. Chairman, that the Administration’s proposal to eliminate the discretionary funding of that program should be reversed, and we would recommend funding at the 

fiscal year 2010 enacted level. 

Now, EPA’s programs make important contributions to the Nation’s conservation agenda. National estuary, wetland and watershed programs protect vital resources essential to community 

health and economic prosperity. The agency’s targeted geographic 

programs support scientific research, planning and cost-effective 

actions to improve water quality and restore aquatic ecosystems. 

We support the request for the water ecosystem and geographic 

programs including the Great Lakes, Chesapeake Bay and also 

Puget Sound. 

So thank you for the opportunity to present our recommendations, and I would be delighted to answer any questions you may 

have. 

[The statement of Tom Cassidy follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thanks, Tom. I appreciate you being here today. 

We look forward to working with you as we put together the 2012 

budget once we know what our numbers are going to be. I suspect 

they are not going to be pretty, but we look forward to working 

with you to make sure we address the high priorities within these 

agencies. 

Mr. CASSIDY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. MORAN. Thank you, and thanks for all you do, Tom, on behalf of the Nature Conservancy. It is a great organization with 

great people. 

Mr. CASSIDY. Thank you, Congressman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Next we have John Turner, past President and 

CEO and former Director of the Conservation Fund. How are you 

doing today? 

Mr. TURNER. Good morning. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Good morning. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

THE CONSERVATION FUND 

WITNESS 

JOHN TURNER, PAST PRESIDENT AND CEO, FORMER DIRECTOR, THE 

CONSERVATION FUND, FWS 

Mr. TURNER. Mr. Chairman and Congressman Moran, a longtime friend, Congresswoman Lummis, I certainly appreciate the opportunity to appear before you this morning with other colleagues 

from the land conservation community. 

I am honored to represent The Conservation Fund, a national advocacy nonprofit that has rather a unique mission statement, conservation and economic development, but with federal, state and 

local landowner partners we have protected some 7 million acres 

across this great country of ours in the last 35 years. 

As a native Westerner, my testimony attempts to draw attention 

to what are some very special projects in eastern Idaho, Montana, 

Wyoming with some in Texas and the Southwest, and I might 

interject, Mr. Chairman, you asked about the concern in the West 

about the expansion of federal lands. I think one excellent tool, it 

is my hope that this Congress could reauthorize the Federal Land 

Transaction Facilitation Act, which allows the federal agencies to 

take fragmented pieces of land and sell those, use those receipts to 

buy priority conservation lands. 

I would mention some other projects but as addicted fly fisherman and old river guide, I would like to draw attention this morning to three ongoing projects that are helping to protect three of the 

finest riparian river corridors and wild trout fishery found anywhere on the globe, and you mentioned one, Mr. Chairman, the 

Henry and South Fork of the Snake where a decade of work has 

protected some 14 miles of that great stretch. Second would be the 

North Platte River near Casper, Wyoming, which has more big wild 

trout per mile than anyplace in the country. And the third would 

be the Upper Snake River and associated lands in Grand Teton National Park. These are ongoing efforts where years of work have 

been done and we have willing landowners and great opportunity. 


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I do want to take this opportunity to personally invite you, Mr. 

Chairman, or any members of the committee to come out and visit 

that landscape, perhaps get in a drift boat and float these wonderful river stretches. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I want to go see that one that has more trout per 

mile than any other stream. Are they smart trout? 

Mr. TURNER. They are smart trout. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Uh-oh. 

Mr. TURNER. It is certainly one of the great fisheries is the South 

Fork of the Snake that I am pleased to enjoy. 

Mr. MORAN. Until Chairman Simpson gets there, and then they 

don’t have the most trout. 

Mr. SIMPSON. It is a humbling experience to go out and try to 

outsmart a fish and lose. 

Mr. TURNER. Well, thank you for sharing that resource with 

those of us in Wyoming as we are happy to share the Tetons with 

you and your constituents. 

Mr. Chairman, I do want to take this morning’s opportunity to 

comment on what I think you appropriately drew attention to, the 

severe fiscal crisis facing this country and the daunting challenge 

this committee has in funding our federal need. It is my hope that 

we can as a Nation sustain the country’s great land conservation 

legacy. But personally, I do not see how we can afford to sustain 

this great tradition without seriously addressing what Chairman 

Ryan calls the main drivers of our deficit challenge and these drivers, I agree, are the major entitlement programs of the country. As 

one of the few who might appear before you here on the panel that 

has finally aspired to the chronological category of senior citizen 

and one that believes himself to be a fiscal conservative and conservationist, I strongly support the long-term efforts to make major 

revisions to Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid. I simply 

think we must do this if we believe we can continue to invest adequately on behalf of today’s and tomorrow’s children in conserving 

watersheds, wildlife habitat, parklands, forests, outdoor recreation 

and working landscapes, farms and ranches and open space. 

As we are all aware and has been mentioned, many of these programs represent dedicated funding sources and embrace the economically sound strategy of taking revenues from our non-renewable, depletable equity base and reinvesting these receipts into renewable equities such as parklands, watersheds, wildlife resources, 

forests, recreation areas and working landscapes. These renewable 

equities then provide economic and job benefits for decades and 

hopefully centuries to come. 

In summary, Mr. Chairman, I would hope we could all agree that 

conserving natural landscapes and wild resources for their own intrinsic value and making these available to all our citizenry was 

uniquely an American idea. This wonderful legacy defines us truly 

as Americans. It has been one of our great gifts to the global community. With your help, it is my hope that we can continue this 

unsurpassed legacy for future generations. Thank you. 

[The statement of John Turner follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you, and I will see you out on one of those 

streams. 

Mr. TURNER. I look forward to joining you out on the river. 

Mr. SIMPSON. We will do it. Thank you. 

We next have Jeff Trandahl, the Executive Director of the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation. Welcome back. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

NATIONAL FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE 

WITNESS 

JEFF TRANDAHL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL FISH AND WILDLIFE FOUNDATION 

Mr. TRANDAHL. Thank you. It is always good to see you, and it 

is wonderful actually following a gentleman from Wyoming, being 

a boy from South Dakota, and welcome to the subcommittee. 

I just want to start off and say I know it has been a very bumpy 

ride the last couple of months for everybody here on the subcommittee and the staff, and we appreciate and we want to thank 

you guys because despite all the challenges out there, the best that 

could be done has definitely been done and, you know, there is a 

tough road ahead and we are all here in partnership to work with 

everybody to try to make it all come together. 

As most of you are very familiar, we are a foundation that was 

actually created by you, Congress, back in 1984 at a very similar 

financial time where the government was losing resources and the 

concept was to set up a foundation that could go out and privately 

leverage up alongside those federal resources in order to accomplish a lot of goals all of us wish to see done. 

I am mainly here to basically reaffirm three items in the Presi- dent’s budget that has come before you. One is $8.5 million in the 

Fish and Wildlife Service budget, $3 million in the Bureau of Land 

Management budget and $3 million in the Forest Service budget 

which would come to the foundation. By law, we are required to leverage that money at least one to one. As most of you know, we 

managed last year about $40 million in federal money. We leveraged it up to about $180 million. So we are actually achieving at 

more than a three to one. A lot of you are also familiar in terms 

of what we did down in the Gulf, all with 100 percent private dollars, nearly $25 million that we were able to put in during the response itself in order to prevent wildlife losses down there, which 

was great. 

The other thing I would say to the subcommittee is, I am always 

the optimist, and the foundation, as you know, has been growing 

the last five years. We have been growing roughly about 20 percent 

a year. And as the economy is coming back, even though the economy went down there, we continue to grow and we continue to see 

incredible, incredible private philanthropic dollars that are out 

there, and that seed money that you provide us, we feel very confident not only can we continue to build and move this thing forward but just even a few months ago I actually achieved the largest individual private contribution we have ever gotten into the 

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vidual, and that is going to focus on a conservation need that a lot 

of us do not know much about which is seabirds, but they are one 

of the most imperiled species on earth and we have seen about a 

90 percent decline in the Pacific over the last decade, and if we do 

not address the issue now, which the Fish and Wildlife Service and 

NOAA clearly do not have the resources to do, it will become an 

enormous issue economically so that one gift we will be able to leverage into $25 million to $30 million from the foundation and 

hopefully we will do what we have been able to do in the past, 

which is to take a large environmental issue like that, check the 

box, get the recovery under way and everybody move forward without anything having to be disrupted. 

With that, I will turn it over to you to drill me with questions. 

[The statement of Jeff Trandahl follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you, and I know that the foundation does 

a great job in leveraging money and getting private sources, and 

of course, we need a lot more of that, frankly, in a lot of different 

areas if we are going to fund a lot of these programs because, as 

you mentioned, the budget situation in this country is not pretty 

and is not anticipated to be pretty for a while. I appreciate it, Jeff. 

Thank you very much. 

Mr. TRANDAHL. And I should mention one last little thing, which 

is our reauthorization is up in the other committee. I am working 

very hard to get the committee to get it done, and we were trying 

to get it done in the last Congress and obviously we were not able 

to get it accomplished, so I am with the staff again next week and 

hopefully we get it on the calendar and we do not see an issue in 

terms of the reauthorization. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Good. Thank you. 

Mr. TRANDAHL. Thank you, gentlemen. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Next we have Gary Werner, the Executive Director 

of the Partnership for the National Trails System. How are you 

doing this morning, Gary? 

Mr. WERNER. Fine. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Good. 

Mr. WERNER. Good to see you again. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Good to see you. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

PUBLIC LANDS, BLM, NATIONAL PARKS 

WITNESS 

GARY WERNER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PARTNERSHIP FOR THE NATIONAL TRAILS SYSTEM 

Mr. WERNER. And I thank you, Mr. Chairman and Congressman 

Moran, Congresswoman Lummis for the opportunity to testify. Just 

as a reminder, I have for you—as you know, I represent 35 organizations that are your partners in the grand experiment of the National Trails System, and I am here to thank you, first off, for the 

strong support you have provided financially to the Park Service, 

the Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management for helping to manage and administer those trails over the last dozen years 

or more but also the equally important guidance that you have provided at a number of junctures to the agencies about how they 

could be better partners. 

As you know, the National Trails System is a rather unique public-private venture that Congress has authorized. Over the last 40 

years, you have authorized 30 National Scenic and Historic Trails 

that span more than 50,000 miles through 49 states, and we represent your private partners in that venture. I am happy to say 

that in 2010, our organizations organized, motivated and guided 

citizen volunteers to contribute 1.1 million hours of volunteer labor 

valued at over $24 million. Our organizations contributed another 

greater than $12 million, a total of almost $37 million of our effort 

for these trails. Congress was able to appropriate about $29 million 

to the three agencies for their part. So we are truly here as your 

partners with a hand out saying we are here to help. 


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The other thing that you know is that unfortunately this wonderful system is mostly incomplete and so we need critical assistance, 

financial assistance in several areas. One is the operations funding 

for the Park Service, the Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management. In our testimony, we are asking for a modest increase for 

each of those agencies. 

One of the ways that we do much of our work, and we were very 

happy to see that the Administration decided once again that the 

value of the Challenge Cost Share programs for the National Park 

Service, the Bureau of Land Management and the Fish and Wildlife Service is really tremendous. We over the years have worked 

mostly Park Service Challenge Cost Share and the leverage is supposed to be one to one. I think our average has been about three 

to one. We have oftentimes had projects 10 to one. It is money that, 

as others have said, provides seed money, gets a lot of projects 

done in local communities but it also provides an opportunity for 

the communities to come out and get involved and make their contributions. So what we are suggesting is a modest increase in the 

amount of money beyond what the President is asking for, of up 

to $4.5 million for Challenge Cost Share with $1.5 million of that 

coming for the National Trails System. In the past you have guided 

money that way toward the trails. 

Secondly, of equal importance, as a number of people have mentioned already, is the Land and Water Conservation Fund to complete critical gaps in the trails. We fully support the effort to try 

to fully fund it this year as the Administration is proposing. What 

we are specifically asking for is a total of about $50 million spread 

across the Forest Service, the Park Service and the Bureau of Land 

Management that would among other things help protect places 

like City of Rocks Reserve in Idaho and a key section of the Nez 

Perce Trail in Hell’s Canyon, a section along the Platte River near 

Casper for the Oregon-California Pony Express Mormon Pioneer 

Trail plus others in other states. We do not have any in Virginia 

because the AT is complete through much of Virginia. But it is critical that you continue to support those investments and help us 

complete the trails. 

The other two things I would like to ask you about are things 

that do not necessarily require expending more money but they do 

require providing guidance to the agencies. The Bureau of Land 

Management budget, as you know, is divided up into sub-activity 

accounts. They have no sub-activity account for trails, and so to 

fund their efforts for the National Scenic Trails—and they have 

more miles of historic trails on the public land than any of the 

other agencies—they have to take from 18 to 20 different sub-activity accounts and it is an accounting nightmare for them, it is an 

accounting nightmare for us to try to match money and, you know, 

make things work, make plans to leverage. So we would ask you 

to, as I think you did last year, direct the Administration to come 

up with a sub-activity account for the National Trails System and 

for the Wild and Scenic River System. 

The last item I want to mention is one that came up very strongly in the last few weeks with the budget issues in fiscal year 2011, 

and that is the travel ceilings for the agencies. These long-distance 

trails spanning thousands of miles based upon relationships with 


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many units of government and nonprofit partners require the ability to come and sit down as we are doing now face to face and talk 

to establish the kind of trust and ongoing partnerships. If the federal folks involved with the trails cannot travel, they quite simply 

cannot do the work that they need to do, and I am hoping that you 

might provide some guidance to the agencies that maybe the trails 

are different than parks that are all in one place and maybe it 

makes sense not to restrict travel from a park, but if you have got 

to trail along thousands of miles of trails, maybe you should not 

be held to the same standard, if you will. 

In closing, I want to thank you all again and I do have some additional—this is a report on some of the Challenge Cost Share programs. This is a report we have done the last several years on 

youth activities that we are doing in the trails systems. And finally, this is our latest national newsletter, which gives you a kind 

of short capsule of things that are happening along the trails across 

the United States. 

We are very proud that we are your private sector partners in 

a public-private venture for public benefit, and we thank you again 

for the longstanding support the committee has given. 

[The statement of Mr. Werner follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Thanks for your testimony. 

Next we have John Calvelli, Executive Vice President of Public 

Affairs at the Wildlife Conservation Society. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

WILDLIFE AND WILDERNESS 

WITNESS 

JOHN CALVELLI, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS, 

WILDLIFE CONSERVATION SOCIETY 

Mr. CALVELLI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, 

Members of Congress. Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to testify today. My name is John Calvelli. I am the Executive Vice President of Public Affairs at the Wildlife Conservation 

Society. WCS is one of those venerable institutions founded in 1895 

with the help of Teddy Roosevelt as a science-based conservation 

organization with the mission of saving wildlife and wild places 

around the globe. Today WCS manages the largest network of 

urban wildlife parks in the United States led by our flagship, the 

Bronx Zoo. Our fieldwork now helps save 25 percent of the earth’s 

biodiversity in over 60 countries around the world. 

I do want to make a brief note that if you are looking for dumb 

trout, we run the largest private protected area in Tierra del Fuego 

in Chile, and I, who am a terrible fisher, did catch something relatively large, so Mr. Chairman—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. It is a long ways to go. 

Mr. CALVELLI. It is a long ways to go but they are really dumb, 

sir. 

We believe this work is necessary to protect the planet’s natural 

capital that is the foundation of future prosperity. Today I would 

like to describe the critical role that domestic and international 

conservation play in increasing our Nation’s economic and national 

security while reaffirming our global position as a conservation 

leader. 

WCS has been an active partner in supporting America’s conservation tradition with our grant program funded by the Doris 

Duke Foundation, which is helping to leverage funds from the Fish 

and Wildlife Service’s state wildlife grant. We have helped through 

the Doris Duke Foundation to give about $14 million to more than 

46 states including Idaho—another blatant comment—on behalf of 

Idaho for wildlife corridor protection. WCS recommends maintaining fiscal year 2010 funding of $95 million in fiscal year 2012 for 

state wildlife grants. The Interior Department estimates that nature-based activities supported by federal programs like state wildlife grants could generate $14.1 billion in fiscal year 2012 for American communities. 

We believe that public land management should be science based 

with an emphasis on landscape-level conservation. WCS supports 

the Administration’s request of $31 million for the USGS Climate 

Science Centers, which will bring scientists and stakeholders together to develop landscape-level management strategies. These 

strategies are important in balancing energy development and 

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serve. I do want to state up front that we were founded by members of the business community. We understand the importance of 

business. We also understand that the National Petroleum Reserve 

was created those many years ago to find petroleum but through 

fate and through nature, that area is also very important for migratory birds, and what we are looking for is some type of focus on 

specific areas so that we can create protected areas so that we can 

support subsidence hunting in the local areas, preserve important 

bird and mammal habitats while promoting energy development 

and respecting first nation practices. 

Conservation can bring nations together for a common cause, 

building diplomatic relationships and preventing conflict. The 2010 

International Tiger Summit in Russia was the first ever heads of 

state summit dedicated to a single species that signaled a strong 

commitment from the international community. Just a note, there 

are actually more tigers in Texas than there are in the wild at this 

point. The Fish and Wildlife Service’s Multinational Species Conservation Fund exemplifies this commitment with its Rhino-Tiger 

Fund, which has helped WCS develop a regionally targeted strategy to give tiger populations a chance to recover. We recommend 

restoring fiscal year 2010 funding levels for the Multinational Species Conservation Fund with an additional $1 million for tigers totaling $12.5 million. This program enjoys broad American constituent support with more than 50 million members of the coalition and over $25 million generated in private investments in fiscal 

year 2009 alone. So as you can see, these programs have great support, but more than that, they also leverage significant federal 

funds. 

Broader ecosystem protection is critical to the preservation of 

species. WCS recommends funding the Wildlife Without Borders 

program at $7.4 million of which $1 million is for the Critically Endangered Species Fund would ensure the conservation of scores of 

endangered birds and animals. 

The Forest Service International Program provides technical support in forest management in the world’s most unstable regions. It 

also represents the U.S. forest products industry in international 

trade agreements and combats illegal logging, which costs American businesses $1 billion annually. WCS requests a restoration of 

this line item in fiscal year 2012 with funding maintained at the 

fiscal year 2010 level of $9.8 million. 

I conclude with a conservation success story thanks to America’s 

investment in global, economic and environmental sustainability. 

Having endured decades of Khmer rule and significant human loss, 

Cambodia is moving towards stability. In 2009, WCS helped Cambodia transform a former logging concession into protection forest 

safeguarding threatened animals and benefiting local hunters and 

farmers who have retained access to the forest to balance conservation with sustainable development. We focus on law enforcement, 

community engagement and long-term monitoring and research 

while the Cambodian government targets major crimes. The Fish 

and Wildlife Service’s initial investment has leveraged significant 

funding from other sources, making this project possible. Biodiversity conservation in places like Cambodia and also in places like 

South Sudan are integral to finding long-term solutions to reduce 


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dependence on foreign aid and empowering its citizens to benefit 

from ecosystem services. 

Thank you for the opportunity to testify, and unfortunately, although I came here from New York, the capital of marketing, I 

have no materials. I saw all of our friends providing materials to 

you. But we are at your disposal to answer any questions, and 

please feel free to come for a tour of the Bronx Zoo when you are 

in New York next. 

[The statement of John Calvelli follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Questions, comments? 

Mr. MORAN. No. Very good testimony. Excellent. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. We appreciate it. Thank you. 

Mr. MORAN. And a great program. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Next, we have Desiree Sorenson-Groves, Vice 

President for Government Affairs, National Wildlife Refuge Association. Hi, how are you doing? 

Ms. SORENSON-GROVES. I am good. How are you? 

Mr. SIMPSON. Excellent. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

WILDLIFE AND WILDERNESS 

WITNESS 

DESIREE SORENSON-GROVES, VICE PRESIDENT, GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, NATIONAL WILDLIFE REFUGE ASSOCIATION 

Ms. SORENSON-GROVES. So I am Desiree. I am with the National 

Wildlife Refuge Association and I am speaking on behalf of myself 

and also over 190 refuge friends organizations including Friends of 

Southeast Idaho Refuges, Friends of Potomac Refuges and numerous ones all over the country. We are working on Wyoming. And 

we also serve as the chair of the Cooperative Alliance for Refuge 

Enhancement. It is called CARE, a very diverse group of conservation and hunting organizations from Audubon to Ducks Unlimited 

to the NRA to Defenders of Wildlife, and as you can imagine, we 

do not agree on much. 

But the one thing we do agree on is refuge funding, and in fact, 

Chairman Simpson, you might remember a couple years ago we 

came in to visit you, and as we were walking past the wolf in the 

back of your office, you asked the folks from Defenders and the Safari Club how does that work, and you might remember the gentleman from the Safari Club looked at you and said, you know, sir, 

we do not agree on much but the one thing we do agree on is refuge funding, we see eye to eye. And that pretty much sums up the 

refuge system. It is unlikely you will find a more diverse constituency for probably any federal program. I mean, that is just the way 

it is. 

We thank you for the past increases leading up to fiscal year 2010, which is $503 million, which enabled the refuge system to 

emerge from dark days of refuge closing. And I have got to tell you, 

you know, Tom’s comment about Park Service endangered species, 

Park Service employees, well, at the refuge system, they were extinct. So it was pretty bad, pretty dark days. And now fiscal year 

2010 is the highest point in refuge funding but that is still 45 percent less than what the refuge system truly needs. The true need 

for the refuge system is actually $900 million annually. So they are 

still operating under, you know, incredible challenges. 

So we do not know what the fiscal year 2011 number is yet. They 

are still working that out. But any cut however small has a serious 

impact on refuges, especially when you are talking about an agency 

that has no fat to cut. The truth is, actually refuges need a small 

increase every year just to maintain what they are doing. That 

used to be $15 million annually. Now with the budget freeze, that 


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has gone to $8 million, and that is our request, is an $8 million 

increase for fiscal year 2012. 

Now, we understand that that is pretty tough given these kind 

of times but that is not even the true need. If you look at the management capability needs from fiscal year 2010, it would be $15 

million for fiscal year 2011 and then another $8 million for fiscal 

year 2012. So for the first time in our history as the CARE coalition, we are, in our minds, asking for a cut, and we have never 

done that before. That was some serious arguments around the 

table, let me tell you. 

So we know that fiscal year 2012 is going to be tough but we 

wanted to give you kind of a sense of what would happen on the 

ground, especially if you went back to fiscal year 2008 numbers. I 

know that is something that you guys are thinking about. Well, 

that is about a 20 percent in funding for the refuge system. Hundreds of staff would be eliminated. Fifty-four visitors centers would 

close, 11 would not open. Hunting on 48 refuges, fishing on 45 

would be eliminated, and the system’s inventory and monitoring 

program we just started would be curtailed. And that is particularly troublesome, considering when the oil spill was coming a year 

ago, none of the refuges—well, none of the refuges nationwide have 

a comprehensive inventory. They do not know what they have. I 

mean, this is kind of mind-boggling because it is because of funding 

costs, they just do not have the ability to figure out what they 

have. So it is hard for them to know what they should manage 

more. To this date, the only refuges in the entire system, 553 refuges, that actually have a comprehensive inventory are the ones 

that were in the path of the oil. That is it. And if we had not had 

that, then when we talk about, you know, getting compensation 

from BP, there is no way that they could prove it. 

But the truth is, when it comes to that, the people who are most 

impacted are the users of the refuge system. Friends and volunteers provide 20 percent of all the work done on national wildlife 

refuges. That is the equivalent of 648 full-time staff, and that is 

from, you know, Fish and Wildlife Service is only—refuge system 

is only about 3,500 staff, so it is an enormous impact on the 

grounds. And those are some of the programs that will get curtailed. They are the first things to go. 

The other people on the ground, I wanted to bring a couple pictures. This is from Mayor Dennis Fife. He is from Brigham City, 

Utah, and I think this photo kind of sums it up. This is the archway and it says welcome to Brigham, gateway to the world’s greatest wild bird refuge. They love their refuge. And in his words, you 

know, business owners in his city depend on the refuge because 

people use their stores, their restaurants and everything there. 

Doug Wood, he is a professor at—this is not Doug Wood, by the 

way. He is a professor at Southeastern Oklahoma State University. 

He uses the Tishomingo National Wildlife Refuge to teach his students how to do research, his biology students, and so right here 

they are birding prothonotary warblers, which at this refuge are on 

the very edge of their range. If he was not doing this, the refuge 

staff would not be getting information about these species, and you 

know, the folks would not be learning. And then last I have Tim 

Reynolds. He is from Rigby, Idaho, a hunter and a bird watcher, 


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interestingly enough, and he is really concerned about budget cuts 

because at the Camas Refuge, which is where he goes, it costs between $60,000 and $90,000 annually to manage the wetlands for 

waterfowl, and with budget cuts, the refuge system is already 

thinking about managing only for upland habitat, not for wetlands, 

so the hunting is going to go. The birds will go. So it’s just one of 

those impacts. 

Refuges are economic engines in these local communities. They provide $4 in economic return for every $1 that you guys appropriate, which is pretty significant, and they are a cheap date. They 

only cost $3.36 per acre to manage, which is the least amount of 

any public land management agency. 

So I thank you for considering our request, and I hope all of you 

go to a national wildlife refuge over your recess. 

[The statement of Desiree Sorenson-Groves follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. We appreciate your testimony. Thanks 

for being here today. 

Mr. MORAN. You got it all in. Nice job. 

Mr. SIMPSON. We have got a series of three votes. 

Mr. LEWIS. Mr. Chairman, if you will, I am going to be running 

all over the place as you are, but later in testimony Mr. Moran and 

you will be hearing Doug Headrick from my district in southern 

California. He specifically will be talking about the Santa Ana 

sucker that you heard me chat with the Secretary about the other 

day. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Yes, you mentioned that sucker. 

Mr. LEWIS. The one thing that we want to make certain is we 

do not go down the pathway of the pattern we experienced with the 

Delta smelt, and all that we can do to respond to Doug’s request, 

I would appreciate. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. 

Mr. MORAN. I would love to hear from The Wildlife Society and 

the Defenders of Wildlife, but I do not know, how much time do we 

have? 

Mr. SIMPSON. We have got three votes. We have five minutes left 

in this one. 

Mr. MORAN. Of course, that was about two minutes ago. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Yes, and then two 5-minute votes, and as soon as 

that 5-minute vote is over, we are probably talking about quarter 

til, being back here. 

Mr. MORAN. I am not going to be able to be back. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I will be. 

Mr. MORAN. Then okay. 

Mr. SIMPSON. We have five more people to testify, so if you will 

be patient with us for the next 25 minutes, 20 minutes while we 

go over and cast our votes for truth, justice and the American way 

of life. 

[Recess.] 

Mr. SIMPSON. Next we have Laura Bies, the Director of Government Affairs for The Wildlife Society. How are you doing today? 

Ms. BIES. Doing well. How are you guys? 

Mr. SIMPSON. Good. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

WILDLIFE AND WILDERNESS 

WITNESS 

LAURA BIES, DIRECTOR OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, THE WILDLIFE 

SOCIETY 

Ms. BIES. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. My name is 

Laura Bies. I am the Director of Government Affairs with The 

Wildlife Society. We represent over 10,000 professional wildlife biologists and managers who are all dedicated to excellence in wildlife stewardship through science and education, and I talk about 

some of our priorities today and then obviously you can refer to my 

written testimony for more detail. 

While we fully understand the limits of the current fiscal situation, we feel Congress also has a responsibility to ensure that the 


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investments of previous generations in wildlife management and 

conservation are not squandered. Our land and natural resource 

management agencies have built a strong foundation of responsible 

science-based wildlife management and conservation over the past 

century and they need the resources to continue this important 

work, especially in the face of threats such as invasive species, 

urban sprawl and increasing development, and climate change. 

Within the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, one of these programs 

is the State and Tribal Wildlife Grants program. It is the only federal program that supports states in preventing wildlife from becoming endangered and it is also the primary program supporting 

the implementation of comprehensive wildlife conservation strategies or state wildlife action plans. These detailed conservation actions are needed on the ground in every state to keep common species common. We recommend that Congress appropriate $95 million for State and Tribal Wildlife grants. 

The National Wildlife Refuge System provides an invaluable network of lands for wildlife conservation in addition to unmatched opportunities for outdoor recreation. Many years of stagnant budgets 

have increased the operations and maintenance backlog of the system. Refuge visitors often show up to find visitors centers closed, 

hiking trails in disrepair and habitat restoration programs eliminated. As a member of CARE, the Cooperative Alliance for Refuge 

Enhancement, which Desiree spoke about, we recommend that 

Congress provide $511 million for operation maintenance of the 

National Wildlife Refuge System. 

Our Bureau of Land Management lands support over 3,000 species of wildlife, more than 300 federally proposed or listed species, 

and more than 1,300 sensitive plant species. However, the BLM 

currently only has about one biologist per 591,000 acres of land and 

the costs they face for endangered and threatened species recovery 

continue to rise. 

In addition, the wildlife and the threatened and endangered species management programs have been forced to pay for the compliance activities of BLM’s energy, grazing and other non-wildlife-related program which erodes their ability to conduct proactive conservation activities on those lands. Given the underfunding of the 

BLM’s wildlife programs combined with the tremendous expansion 

of energy development across the BLM landscape that we have 

seen in recent decades, we recommend funding of $40 million for 

BLM’s wildlife management program. 

The Wildlife Society appreciates BLM’s commitment to addressing the problems identified with wild horse and burro management 

on their lands. The President has requested an increase of $12 million for this program to implement a new strategy for management 

and also act on recommendations provided by the Inspector General. We are concerned, however, about the BLM’s emphasis on fertility control and their proposal to reduce the number of horses removed from the range. Horses are already above the appropriate 

management levels as set by BLM in most of these areas so we feel 

the proposal to reduce the number of horses removed from the 

range is ill-conceived. The request of $75.7 million should be provided to BLM if they continue to remove these excess horses from 


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the range and also focus additional resources on habitat restoration. 

Within the U.S. Geological Survey, the cooperative fish and wildlife research units play a key role in conducting research on renewable natural resource questions, expanding into education of graduate students, providing technical assistance on natural resource 

issues, and providing continued education for natural resource professionals like our members. In 2001, Congress fully funded these 

units which allowed productivity to rise to record levels. Since 

then, however, budgetary shortfalls have caused an erosion of 

available funds. This has resulted in a current staffing vacancy of 

nearly one-quarter of the professional workforce within those units. 

To fill these current vacancies, restore the seriously eroded operational funds and to enhance national program coordination, $22 

million should be appropriated for the cooperative fish and wildlife 

research units. 

We appreciate the fiscal year 2010 funding of $15.1 million for 

the National Climate change and Wildlife Science Center. The center is going to play a really pivotal role in addressing the impacts 

of climate change on fish and wildlife by providing essential scientific support, and we recommend funding for this center at $25 

million. 

Finally, we ask Congress to provide additional funding to fight 

white nose syndrome in bats. The current loss of bat populations 

from white nose syndrome is one of the most precipitous wildlife 

declines really in the past century in North America and would 

likely have significant ecological and economic impacts. We request 

a total funding of $11.1 million for white nose syndrome research, 

monitoring and response spread among the various federal agencies that are involved in this effort. 

Thank you for considering the views and the recommendations of 

the wildlife professionals and we are available to continue working 

with you and your staff throughout the process. 

[The statement of Laura Bies follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. We look forward to working with you 

on this and finding out what a white nose bat is. I appreciate it. 

Thank you. 

Ms. BIES. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Next, we have Mary Beth Beetham, Legislative Director of the Defenders of Wildlife. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

WILDLIFE AND WILDERNESS 

WITNESS 

MARY BETH BEETHAM, DIRECTOR OF LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS, DEFENDERS OF WILDLIFE 

Ms. BEETHAM. Thank you very much for the opportunity to testify. I really appreciate it. Defenders of Wildlife has more than 1 

million members and supporters around the country, and we are 

dedicated to the conservation of wild animals and plants in their 

natural communities. 

Even in these challenging budget times, Defenders continues to 

believe that investments in the protection of wildlife are a wise 

choice for our Nation. To protect wildlife, its habitat must be protected, which in turn protects healthy natural systems that provide 

clean air, clean water, food, medicines and other products we all 

need to live healthy lives. Federal programs that protect imperiled 

species, migratory birds, refuges, forests and other lands essential 

to wildlife conservation, as I am sure you well know, are therefore 

all going to ultimately support the health and well-being of the 

American people. 

The devastating Deepwater Horizon oil spill offered a valuable 

but unfortunate lesson in the importance of a healthy Gulf Coast 

ecosystem for the families and the communities dependent upon it. 

Moreover, the American public cares deeply about wildlife conservation as they demonstrate by opening their pocketbooks and 

spending about $120 billion every year on wildlife-associated recreation. 

The programs that Defenders highlights in our written testimony 

are the ones under the subcommittee’s jurisdiction that we think 

are the most important for wildlife conservation, and we know 

these are challenging budget times so we are asking that you do 

as much as you can to protect them. I would like to take just a few 

minutes to highlight what we think are some of the compelling 

needs just as examples. 

The National Wildlife Refuge System, as Desiree already mentioned, anchors our Nation’s wildlife conservation efforts yet flat or 

declining budgets will force its return to a massive restructuring 

program that will harm basic functions such as restoring habitats, 

controlling illegal activities and invasive species, and working with 

visitors. The special agents of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service 

Office of Law Enforcement are on the front lines between protected 

plants and animals and the poachers and the smugglers who traffic 

in them. The annual illegal wildlife trade is valued at $10 billion 

annually and that is second only after the illegal trade in drugs 

and arms yet the special agents force currently falls 23 percent 


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below its authorized level and even 16 percent below its previous 

high water mark. 

As our Nation pursues the needed expansion of renewable energy 

development, it is also important that that move forward in such 

a way that wildlife protections are protected and there is no net 

loss of any wildlife populations. Yet even for a species as iconic as 

the golden eagle, there is not currently enough information to ensure that wind turbines can be sited in such a way that will prevent harm. 

BLM and Forest Service lands, as has already just been previously said, are becoming increasingly important to the conservation of wildlife in our country, each supporting more than 3,000 

species. BLM must survey at least 400 caves, which they have not 

even begun to do yet, for the presence or absence of bats in order 

to begin to address white nose syndrome, which is a devastating 

disease that has killed more than a million bats across the country 

and is continuing to spread, and why we should care about white 

nose syndrome? Well, bats are beneficial in many ways including 

as voracious eaters of insects that are pests. 

The Forest Service Wildlife and Fish program falls nearly $16 

million below its 2001 inflation-adjusted level, so that program is 

having a hard time. And they also have 19 percent fewer biologists 

and botanists than they had in 1995. And while we support the Administration’s Integrated Resource Restoration initiative, we support the stated goals of the Integrated Resource Restoration initiative. We do have concerns about the adequacy of the science-based 

management objectives that the agency has put forward so far and 

also the conservation standards that have also been put forward at 

this point, especially given that they plan to merge the wildlife and 

fisheries program into Integrated Resource Restoration. 

And finally, we support the Administration’s continued emphasis 

on landscape-level conservation that is intended to build resilience 

to broad-scale economic stressors like climate change, drought, 

wildfire, invasive species and other impacts. However, as I know I 

have heard you say many times and we have spoken to you about 

this previously, we believe that these efforts really need to be effectively and efficiently coordinated and we need to make sure there 

is not duplication going on in order for them to be really effective, 

and they also really need to be lifting the boats of the basic operating programs of the agency such as providing them with the inventory and monitoring resources that they need. And the impacts, 

and while these landscape-level projects and conservation efforts 

are moving forward, the impacts of large undertakings such as the 

expanded development of renewable energy should be getting considered as they are planning all their landscape-level efforts, not 

separately. 

So thank you very much. We appreciate the opportunity and we 

look forward now that we are on to fiscal year 2012, we hope, we 

look forward to working with you because we know it is going to 

be a challenging year. 

[The statement of Mary Beth Beetham follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Well, thank you for your testimony, and we do look 

forward to working with you as we try to make a budget that 

makes sense with what limited resources we are going to have in 

this coming year. 

Ms. BEETHAM. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Nina Fascione. Is that even close? 

Ms. FASCIONE. It was very close, actually, just about right on. 

Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you, the Executive Director of the Bat Conservation International. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

WILDLIFE AND WILDERNESS 

WITNESS 

NINA FASCIONE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, BAT CONSERVATION INTERNATIONAL 

Ms. FASCIONE. Yes, and this, sir, is, I am afraid, a dead bat with 

white nose syndrome, so I am here—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. It is not a white nose bat, it is white nose syndrome? 

Ms. FASCIONE. It is a fungus that is devastating bat populations 

in the United States. It is a newly described newly emerging disease that was first discovered outside of a cave in Albany, New 

York, in 2006, so it is brand new. It has killed more than a million 

bats by far, as you have heard, although my personal opinion is 

that it has destroyed at least an order of magnitude larger than 

that. As you can imagine, bats are hard to count and so the numbers are not accurate. 

Mr. SIMPSON. How does it kill them? 

Ms. FASCIONE. It is a cold-loving fungus that impacts hibernating 

bats, as they are hibernating in caves and mines in the winter, and 

as anybody who has ever had athlete’s foot knows, when you get 

a fungus, it is very itchy and irritating. It wakes the bats up from 

hibernation. Their immune systems kick in and they start burning 

up their fat reserves. So these bats are waking up twice as much 

as they would normally without the fungus, and frankly, the cause 

of death is likely starvation or dehydration. It is causing strange 

bat behavior like bats flying around in the middle of winter when 

they should be hibernating or during the day, and it is killing 

them. 

It is impacting these hibernating bats. It has so far impacted 

nine species in 18 states. We heard this two days ago, Kentucky 

added to the unfortunate list of states that have white nose syndrome. In the United States, we have 46 species of bats. Twentyfive of those are hibernating species. So more than half of our bats 

in the United States could be impacted by this disease. And you 

heard my predecessor saying that scientists really are calling this 

the most precipitous decline in wildlife in North America. 

A little bit more about the economic benefits of bats. They really 

do provide enormous benefits to humans. They eat bugs and they 

happen to have a preference for bugs that eat crops, the cotton 

bollworm and insect pests that destroy potato, cotton and corn 


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crops. They are enormously beneficial to farmers, and in fact, a 

study that came out just two weeks ago in the journal Science, a 

prestigious journal by really some of the Nation’s top bat biologists, 

estimated that bats save farmers in the United States between 

$3.7 billion and $5.3 billion a year. With the loss of bats at this 

rate, farmers can start seeing impacts within the next four to five 

years. It is going to mean their costs go up in pesticides and obviously more pesticides means more chemicals in our environment, so 

it is really an unfortunate situation all around. 

In fact, I said the number one million is probably conservative, 

but if you just take that one million figure, one million bats would 

eat 700 tons of insects a year. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I like bats. 

Ms. FASCIONE. So two of the species that are impacted of the 

nine are endangered federally listed, the gray bat and Indiana bat. 

The gray bat in fact was doing well under the Endangered Species 

Act. We were working to delist it until this disease came along. 

Ninety percent of the gray bat population is in less than ten caves, 

so if those caves get hit with the fungus, they are likely goners. 

And these impacts of these species and other potential species that 

might be potentially listed could have impacts on mining, forestry, 

construction, transportation and even tourism, so there could be 

very wide-ranging impacts of possible future listings for bats or 

frankly cave invertebrates that are impacted with the loss of bats 

in the cave ecosystems. 

Many agencies, frankly all the agencies, have been looking at 

this disease because it is so far-reaching, and in fact, I brought a 

map to share with you as well. So the Fish and Wildlife Service has 

been the lead agency on this and they have been working on understanding the disease, how it spreads, surveillance, monitoring and 

stopping the spread, which will require public education and outreach. We are requesting $11.1 million to continue working on this 

disease, and we believe that this is a case of where an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure because of these economic benefits 

from bats and the loss which could be so devastating. 

The impacts are going to be at both state and federal levels. We 

understand this is a very tight economic time but this request is 

really—the agencies have been pouring funding into this already by 

necessity. This increase is actually just $4.8 million above what 

they have been doing, and again, is well worth it in the long run. 

So thank you very much for the opportunity to talk about this 

disease, and I will share these maps. One is of our current white 

nose syndrome range and then we just this week created a map 

with—the gray area is Car System in the western United States, 

so these are areas where bats will be hibernating. The brown area 

is where two of the most common species reside, which basically 

shows that this could spread through the entire Nation including 

those areas in the West, and because you said you like bats, this 

is the newest issue of our magazine where we highlight different 

species. Hopefully you think some of them are pretty cool. 

[The statement of Nina Fascione follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. They are weird looking. 

Ms. FASCIONE. They are weird looking, some of them. Some of 

them are quite cute and they are very important. 

Mr. SIMPSON. How do you fight that? 

Ms. FASCIONE. Again, as anybody who has had athlete’s foot 

knows, it is actually very hard to fight a fungus, particularly bats 

are colonial. You know, they live in these huge populations in 

caves. It is going to be very hard to treat this. You cannot treat 

with a fungicide or you risk killing other cave biota. So far, agencies and private landowners have been doing decontamination protocols, keeping people out of caves when necessary or when people 

need to go in caves, doing a full decontamination protocol. The disease is spread bat to bat. So it is going to be a tough task to stop 

this. You cannot obviously vaccinate bats, and that is what we need 

to find out. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I appreciate it. Thank you. 

Ms. FASCIONE. Thank you, sir. 

Doug Headrick, General Manager of the Santa Ana Sucker Task 

Force, as Mr. Lewis said that this is a subject he has brought up 

many times with the individuals testifying, so welcome. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

WILDLIFE AND WILDERNESS 

WITNESS 

DOUG HEADRICK, GENERAL MANAGER, SAN BERNARDINO VALLEY 

MUNICIPAL WATER DISTRICT/SANTA ANA SUCKER TASK FORCE 

Mr. HEADRICK. Thank you very much, Chairman Simpson. 

As Congressman Lewis mentioned, I am here today representing 

the 12 inland California agencies that have banded together in the 

face of what we believe is regulatory overreach by the U.S. Fish 

and Wildlife Service. 

Unfortunately, our region has the distinction of having the highest unemployment rate in the entire United States, but in the 

midst of this economic turmoil, the service under some heavy political and legal pressure by the Center for Biological Diversity threw 

out their carefully determined Critical Habitat designation from 

five years ago and greatly expanded that territory late last year. 

The Santa Ana sucker is a small fish, maybe about six inches 

long. It was listed as threatened in 2001, and since that time, 

members of our task force have worked cooperatively with the service and others to conduct studies, monitor the species and also 

identify restoration projects, and so far we spent well over $1 million to do that. 

However, after all this cooperative work was in place, in December 2009 the service announced that they were planning to overturn their previous rule based on a closed-door settlement agreement that was signed between the service and the Center for Biological Diversity. Those of us that were going to be most impacted 

by this decision were not involved in that. 

So back in 2005, after a lengthy public comment and review process, the service established the critical habitat for this fish. At that 

time the service intentionally excluded areas of the river that are 


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dry for obvious reasons, finding that these areas were not essential 

to the conservation of the species, which is the finding required, 

and that the enormous cost to our economy far outweighed any possible benefits to the fish. But we believe the new designation, the 

new expanded designation, disregards the scientific and economic 

realities which should have been central to their decision. In short, 

the service did not follow its own rules or federal law. 

Let me underscore if I could that none of the newly designated 

areas currently nor in the past ever supported a sustainable population of this fish, mainly because they are dry nine to 11 months 

a year. Even before water diversion started over 100 years ago, 

based on the climate, these reaches of the river would go dry during dry times. Amazingly, the service included these ephemeral 

streams in the new critical habitat for the fish. The new untested 

claim is that the gravel that is on the bed of these dry streams, 

it might be needed in the future for the fish that live downstream. 

As you know, water supply reliability in California is a big issue, 

especially when it is tied to the Sacramento Delta, as we are 

through the state water project. The new designation critical habitat, directly opposes our efforts to reduce our reliance on that water 

source. We have been working to undertake stormwater capture 

programs to expand our water supplies without impacting species. 

These are projects that capture water that would have flowed to 

the Pacific Ocean during flood events, not helping humans or fish. 

This new designation puts these projects in jeopardy and makes us 

look back to the delta for our water needs. 

For example, several years ago Congress authorized funding for 

the Seven Oaks Dam. It is mainly a flood control project. However, 

Congress also authorized spending to alter the dam’s design to 

allow us to capture more water. After that, the California State 

Water Resource Control Board spent several years evaluating the 

project, the water capture project behind Seven Oaks Dam, to try 

to determine the impacts it might have on the species and determined that with mitigation that we have implemented, the water 

diversion would not harm the fish. Should this habitat expansion 

be allowed, our access to this valuable water supply could be nullified, violating Congress’s clear intention. 

How much water is at risk? This is essentially the amount of 

water that would serve about a million Californians every year. To 

replace this water with the value of water in California today 

would cost over $2 billion over the next 25 years. That is assuming 

we could actually find it. 

Our region, with its 13 percent unemployment rate, can really ill 

afford the uncertainty caused by this ruling. When combined with 

the Delta smelt, which we are all familiar with, this recent ruling 

essentially could stop all economic growth in our region. Despite 

this chilling result and the fact that the issue was repeatedly 

raised with the Fish and Wildlife Service, they chose not to even 

evaluate the economic issue. 

Earlier this week, the task force that I represent took the first 

step to try to reverse this decision by the service. We formally filed 

what is called a 60-day notice outlining all the deficiencies of the 

ruling. Now we hope that the service will take the 60 days provided 

by law to reverse their decision and reestablish the critical habitat 


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to what it was originally determined to be. I ask that the committee please undertake an active role in oversight of the service 

and its use of the Endangered Species Act as a regulatory tool. 

Thank you. 

[The statement of Doug Headrick follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you, and thank you for your testimony. I 

feel fairly certain that there are a couple members on this committee that will keep us well informed of what is going on, Mr. 

Lewis and Mr. Calvert. So thanks for your testimony and thanks 

for being here today. 

Mr. HEADRICK. Thank you very much. 

Mr. SIMPSON. You bet. 

Andy Oliver, Coordinator of the Multinational Species Coalition. 

Ms. OLIVER. I am batting cleanup here. Hopefully I will hit a 

home run. 

Mr. SIMPSON. There you go. 

FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011. 

WILDLIFE AND WILDERNESS 

WITNESS 

ANDY OLIVER, COORDINATION, MULTINATIONAL SPECIES COALITION 

Ms. OLIVER. Mr. Simpson, Chairman Simpson, thank you so 

much for the opportunity to testify today on behalf of the Multinational Species Coalition on the Multinational Species Conservation Fund of the Fish and Wildlife Service, and I just wanted to 

thank you and your staff for all of the hard work that has gone into 

providing this opportunity to testify for all of us. The work that has 

gone into this as a new participant really, you know, made it very 

easy and feasible and seamless for all of us so that you could hear 

the many voices that you have heard over the last four days. 

My name is Andy Oliver and I serve as the brand-new Coordinator of the Multinational Species Coalition, a broad-based coalition comprised of 32 organizations representing sportsmen, conservationists, zoos, circuses, veterinarians, animal welfare groups 

and their more than 15 million members, which is a huge number. 

I was shocked when I heard that. I want to thank you for your past 

and consistent support for these small but vital programs, and in 

fiscal year 2012 we respectfully request your support for funding 

the Multinational Species Conservation Fund at $12.5 million and 

the Wildlife Without Borders program at $7.4 million. 

Wildlife conservation programs are a modest but essential piece 

of the United States engagement with the developing world. 

Through the Multinational Species Conservation Fund, the United 

States supplements the efforts of developing countries that are 

struggling to balance needs of their human populations and wildlife. The Multinational Species Conservation Fund helps to sustain 

wildlife populations, address threats by controlling poaching, reducing human-wildlife conflict, and protecting essential habitat. By 

working with local communities, they also improve people’s livelihoods, contribute to local and regional stability, and support U.S. 

security interests in impoverished regions. 

Over the past two decades, these popular and highly effective 

programs have provided seed money for public-private partnerships 

that conserve wild tigers, elephants, rhinos, great apes and marine 

turtles in their native habitat. The Multinational Species Conservation Fund and the Wildlife Without Borders programs have long 


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enjoyed broad bipartisan support and we urge you to continue that 

support going forward. Multinational Species Conservation Fund 

serves the dual purpose of protecting wildlife populations and essential habitat for local communities. They are an excellent investment for the Federal Government, consistently leveraging three or 

four times as much in matching funds from corporations, conservation groups and national governments. 

Recognizing our challenging budget situation, the Multinational 

Species Coalition hopes you will consider including funding for the 

five funds that make up this small but vital program at $2 million 

each for the African elephant, Asian elephant and marine turtle 

funds, $2.5 million for great apes, and $4 million for the combined 

rhino-tiger fund. These funding levels are consistent with fiscal 

year 2010 appropriations for all of the funds except rhino-tiger, for 

which we request a $1 million increase to bring it in line with the 

African and Asian elephant and marine turtle fund, so $2 million 

for rhinos, $2 million for tigers, and capitalize on the global awareness and commitments made at last year’s International Tiger 

Summit that Mr. Calvelli mentioned earlier. 

The need for your support of these funds has never been greater. 

My written testimony includes many examples of many of the success stories made possible by the Multinational Species Conservation Fund. I think that you heard from Mr. Calvelli about the situation with tigers and so I will not elaborate on that further, but 

that is just one example of the great work that is done through 

these funds for all of these wildlife species. 

Just a few words about the Wildlife Without Borders program. 

The Wildlife Without program addresses some of the world’s most 

pressing challenges to wildlife. Faced with emerging disease 

threats that pass between animals and people—you heard about 

the bats—extracted industry practices and pressures from local 

communities for nature to provide for their livelihoods, this program allows for greater investment in addressing cross-cutting 

threats to ecosystems and wildlife. The program is making a lasting impact through capacity-building and technical support and 

training and local community education. It is just doing terrific 

work, and the small investment really makes it worth it. 

We hope you will consider the proven success and very positive 

impacts of these programs in relation to their modest cost and the 

broad-based and enthusiastic support of constituents. We urge the 

committee to fund the programs at the levels outlined earlier. 

Thank you again for the opportunity. We really appreciate it. We 

look forward to working with you, and I am happy to answer any 

questions that after four days of this you may have. 

[The statement of Andy Oliver follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you for being here today and for your testimony, and we appreciate it very much. 

Most of you here may wonder when you leave if what you say 

to us makes any difference in what we do. I suspect most people 

who testify before Congress wonder if that is the case. But it does 

make a difference in what happens because we do take your testimony into consideration and the concerns when we are trying to 

put together a budget, whether it is in times when we increased 

funding or flat funding or with decrease in funding. So it is important that we have the views of your organizations and people in the 

country of what their priorities are and what we need to be doing. 

So I do appreciate all of you being here today and for your testimony and we look forward to working with all the different organizations that have an interest in various parts of this Interior and 

Environment budget. So thank you all. 


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TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

TESTIMONY OF INTERESTED INDIVIDUALS AND 

ORGANIZATIONS 

PUBLIC WITNESSES—NATIVE AMERICANS 

Mr. COLE. We are going to go ahead and start. We will have 

members coming in and out through the morning, but we certainly 

want to try and stay as much on time as we can. I am presiding. 

Chairman Simpson will be here at some points and some points he 

will not, but if we could have our first panel come forward, please. 

If we could have Mr. Tortalita. 

Mr. TORTALITA. Good morning. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

PUEBLO OF ACOMA 

WITNESS 

LLOYD TORTALITA 

Mr. TORTALITA. Good morning. My name is Lloyd Tortalita, and 

I am from Pueblo of Acoma in New Mexico. Not Mexico, but New 

Mexico. A lot of people do not know that New Mexico does exist, 

and I am from Pueblo of Acoma. I am a Vietnam veteran. I am also 

a uranium worker, 20 years of working in the uranium mines. Also 

the best title I have right now is being grandpa. 

And as a tribal elder, the young people that I am speaking for, 

I am from Pueblo of Acoma. It is my concern my young people are 

growing up because of the type of world that we live in and what 

is happening in the world. So mostly my testimony is geared towards those individuals that are being affected by things like uranium mining, industry ruin, and I suffer, and you know, a lot of 

things that we are doing now, the national budget, is requiring a 

lot of money. 

As a Vietnam veteran I did not know that I was going to get diabetes from Agent Orange, did not know that I was going to be suffering what I am suffering now. I look good and healthy but inside 

I am not anymore. Same way with uranium. You know the recall 

compensation that has been going through, reauthorization back in 

2000, when I was governor of Pueblo of Acoma, I testified before 

Congress in trying to pass that, got it passed, and now we have a 

lot of individuals that are suffering from that or families are suffering because we did not know when we went to work for them. 

The United States said, we need your help; we need you to go to 

Vietnam, and I got drafted, got sent to Vietnam, and now we are 

paying for it. My skin is not what it used to be. 


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I did not know I was getting diabetes, did not know some of my 

friends were burying an individual, one of our veterans from the 

American Legion Post 116. I am also a chaplain at that. We are 

burying one of our individuals because of colon cancer, and he got 

it from being in Vietnam from Agent Orange and everything else. 

They are burying him right now. I should be out there as a tribal 

elder, and you know, we are losing a lot of our elders. 

Now these baby boomers who were the ones that were in Vietnam are the ones that are suffering, are the ones that are supposed 

to be the grandpas and grandmas teaching our young people our 

tradition and culture of Acoma and throughout our country. 

And, you know, we come here, I come here sometimes, this year, 

again, I am privileged to come back because I am the former governor, and I have testified a couple of times before Congressman 

Yates, Congressman Dicks, and now in front of Congressman Cole. 

And but it is an honor to be here, and again, some of the things 

that I will be talking about I am not going to see it probably within 

10 years. You know, I came here asking for money to build a community center for my people. It took 10 years to get it built. It is 

built now, and it is done, and we are addressing diabetes and everything else, and some of the things that are happening to our 

young people. 

Education is another one. We are still fighting for education, Native American education, education for our young people, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, the Bureau of Indian Education. It is not 

happening, and a lot of things are not happening as we all know. 

You hear a lot of people come before you, and one of the biggest 

subjects is Johnson-O’Malley. I know you are very aware of it. I 

know because I have talked to you before. Johnson-O’Malley is a 

program that is there for our young people, our young Native students that most are, as you know, were in rural settings, way out 

there in the middle of nowhere, where there is really no transportation, no roads. In my testimony you will probably read later on, 

talking about roads. Our roads are falling apart, and our hospitals 

are, this and that. 

And so we are in a bad situation with bridges and roads, hospitals, I mean, Indian Health Service, VA hospitals, those, same 

way with the Johnson-O’Malley. You know, we are fighting for $24 

million, get it back to what it was, and I have pictures that you 

can look at in the back of my testimony here that shows that my 

program is successful, that we are doing what we need to do and 

also at one time or another we also had an office within the central 

office here in Washington of JOM, but Save America’s Treasures 

was another one. Acoma dating back to 1,200. 

And then like I said, budget. I mean, we are down. IHS hospitals, Acoma-Canoncito, 50 percent or 50 positions are open. How 

are we going to provide medical services? VA hospitals, takes all 

day for individuals to get there, but we are suffering from all that 

stuff. 

So we are just here to ask for help, and it is all written out. It 

is all there, so please read what I am telling you, but, you know, 

we have all this, and water is another example, coming off of 

Mount Taylor, you do not have any good water coming off of there. 


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All of it, right now they are saying they are putting chemicals into 

the ground which directly affects our irrigation. 

Irrigation system is another one that we worry about. So please 

if you could, pay attention to some of this. Johnson-O’Malley is the 

biggest thing. I mean, it is all there, 24 million, a position in Washington, student, and freeze it and educate our young people like 

they need to be educated. 

And I know I am running out of time, but the red light is on, 

but, you know, thank you very much for listening to me, and it is 

all written out, and I just urge and ask Congress to read and help 

us. Thank you very much. 

[The statement of Lloyd Tortalita follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Well, first of all, thank you for your service and not 

only to our country but to your tribe as well and the many things 

you have done. Your testimony will be entered. 

This committee has a really strong bipartisan tradition of trying 

to work on these things, and in a tough budget time it actually has. 

We actually exceeded the President’s request for 2011. We have 

met it in previous years, and again, that has been bipartisan. We 

recognize the problems you are talking about are very real, and 

certainly Chairman Simpson has made a real effort in a period of 

budget cuts to make sure that on Native American programs we 

have been able to avoid those and actually add a little bit to what 

was done in 2010. 

So I cannot predict what is going to happen going forward. We 

live in an era of trillion and a half dollar deficits, and that is not 

sustainable, but I can assure you this committee is going to do everything it can on a bipartisan basis to protect and build on these 

really critical programs. 

So, again, thank you for being here. 

Mr. TORTALITA. Thank you very much, and you can see pictures 

of my state cross country champions. 

Mr. COLE. I was going to say I am pretty impressed with the 

state champs. 

Mr. TORTALITA. The after-school van. If they did not have the 

transportation service to the schools, we would have never gotten 

the state championship. It is really a good program that, again, 

this is the Johnson-O’Malley Program. 

Mr. COLE. It is awfully impressive. 

Mr. TORTALITA. Thank you very much. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. 

And if we could, we will move on to Mr. Dasheno. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

SANTA CLARA PUEBLO 

WITNESS 

WALTER DASHENO 

Mr. DASHENO. Chairman Simpson, Ranking Member Moran, and 

Congressman Cole, and members of the subcommittee, my name is 

Walter Dasheno. I am the governor of the Pueblo Santa Clara, and 

thank you for this opportunity to present to you on the fiscal year 

2012 budget. 

Santa Clara Pueblo is a federally recognized Indian tribe located 

25 miles north of Santa Fe, New Mexico. We are only one of two 

tribes in New Mexico that have ventured into self-governance compacts with the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Santa Clara Pueblo’s experience as a self-governance tribe mirrors that of many other selfgovernance tribes. 

Overall, the program has been a great success. Self-governance 

works because it promotes self-sufficiency and accountability, 

strengthens tribal planning and management capacities, invests in 

our local resources to strengthen reservation economies, allows for 

flexibility and a firm sovereignty. 


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Santa Clara is happy to see that the President’s budget proposes 

continued investment in the self-governance program with a modest increase in the IHS budget of 263,000 for administrative costs 

and a larger increase in the self-governance line in the BIA budget 

of 7.32 million for a total of 155.84 million from the fiscal year 

2010–2011 continuing resolution level. And this is an increase of 

approximately 5 percent. 

Overall, the Federal Government obligates over 425 million to 

some 225 federally-recognized tribes through the self-governance 

compacts. Notwithstanding this increases in the self-governance 

program, in reality overall funding for self-governance tribes does 

not keep pace with non-self-governance tribes. It has been the experience of self-governance tribes that when others have received 

funded increases, self-governance tribes do not or did not receive 

their relatively fair share. I would urge this committee to examine 

closely this issue. Santa Clara budget matters illustrate some of 

the national concerns that we have. 

Santa Clara publicly submitted grant applications to various feasibility studies for a range of energy projects. Both the Department 

of Energy, Office of Tribal Affairs, and the BIA Office of Indian Energy and Economic Development have been very helpful, and their 

programs should receive more funding. 

Santa Clara desperately needs a new and expanded health clinic. 

Santa Clara does not believe that the in-house service has the 

funding to pay the cost for constructing a new facility, and so it 

plans to finance its own facility if necessary. Still, Congress should 

support funding for more hospital construction and also continue to 

support and provide favorable grants and loans and loan guarantees for tribes that seek to construct their own facilities. 

Invested in irrigation infrastructure, Rio Grande Pueblos Irrigation Infrastructure Improvement Act funding. This act authorizes 

the funding of projects to correct deficiencies identified by a Secretarial study. The implementation of this act will favorably affect 

public traditional lifestyle and culture which for hundreds of years 

has been based on the culture, agriculture, and irrigated lands. So 

far almost no money has been spent implementing this act. 

In late 2009, Santa Clara Pueblo completed construction of a 

10,800 square foot regional adult daycare center that will be able 

to serve a growing population of tribal seniors. Although the center 

has been completed, the adult daycare program has not yet been 

implemented due to severe funding restraints. Congress needs to 

expand funding for programs that serve Indian elders. 

The Santa Clara Pueblo wastewater systems are also in an advanced state of decay and threaten community health and the 

water quality of the Rio Grande. The system was largely constructed in the 1960s and ’70s and has out-served its actual use 

life. The need to upgrade wastewater and water facilities is common throughout Indian Country. 

Santa Clara urges funding through the Army Corps of Engineers 

from the Espanola Valley Watershed Study to address ecosystem 

restoration and critical health and human safety concerns, specifically flooding along the Espanola River Valley. 

Finally, Santa Clara urges increased funding for the BIA Real 

Estate Services, which support cadastral surveys, lease compliVerDate Mar 15 2010 04:23 Jun 30, 2011 Jkt 066982 PO 00000 Frm 00281 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A982P2.XXX A982P2

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ances, and energy and mineral development issues. Current funding only meets about one-quarter of the need, holding up critical 

tribal projects. I must add, by the way, that the Southwest Region 

is blessed with the outstanding BIA Real Estate officer in Johnna 

Black. 

Finally, although not immediately affected, Santa Clara does 

support passage of the statuary fix which the subcommittee worked 

so hard on last year. 

In conclusion, as you work on the budget, please feel free to 

reach out to our DC Council, Greg Smith, who is well versed in all 

of these matters. Thank you for this opportunity to present the 

budget perspective of Santa Clara Pueblo. And I am on time. 

[The statement of Walter Dasheno follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. It was like to the second. Did you practice? 

Mr. DASHENO. No, I did not, but certainly, Mr. Chairman, and 

Mr. Cole, I support what Governor, former Governor Tortalita has 

said. We need to put our hand out to the veterans. That is an organization that is widely needed and also to the elderly. We met with 

some people yesterday, but there is very little involvement of support from the national programs that support Indian issues for the 

Native elderly, and we have some recommendations that we will 

come back with. 

So with that, congratulations. Thank you very much, and the 

United States has to be something to be proud of in the passing 

of what has happened over the weekend. So thank you. 

Mr. COLE. I think all of us, regardless of our points of view, take 

a great deal of pride in what our military did, and again, thank you 

for your service. Thank you for mentioning veterans. 

I see Mr. Calvert is here. I do not know if you have any questions 

of either of our guests. 

Mr. CALVERT. Mr. Chairman, I apologize for being a little late 

but—— 

Mr. COLE. I am just happy to have the company. 

Mr. CALVERT. Thank you. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you very much. 

If we could, we will move onto Faye BlueEyes. Welcome. 

Ms. BLUEEYES. Thank you. 

Mr. COLE. We will go ahead and hear your testimony and then 

have questions. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

DZILTH-NA-O-DITH-HLE COMMUNITY SCHOOL 

WITNESS 

FAYE BLUEEYES 

Ms. BLUEEYES. Mr. Chairman, members of the subcommittee, 

my name is Faye BlueEyes, and I am the program director for 

Dzilth-Na-O-Dith-Hle School, which is a school on the Navajo Reservation in Bloomfield, New Mexico. 

Our school has been in continuous service since 1968, and operates a K–8 educational program and a dorm program for students 

1 through 12. Two hundred students are enrolled in our school, and 

51 students are in the dorm. Our mission is to make a difference 

in the educational progress of our students, and we believe that all 

of our students are capable of achieving academic success. 

But we struggle with chronic under-funding of virtually each and 

every one of our educational and related programs. Though we operate with authorization from the Navajo Nation, we are a separate 

tribal organization, carrying out the federal trust responsibilities to 

educate Native American children under the Indian Self-Determination Act. 

Our buildings are more than 40 years old with serious deficiencies in our aging electrical, heating, and plumbing systems. We 

have to continually cope with major problems such as leaking 

sewer lines and in November, ’09, we discovered a major leak in 


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an underground gas line which threatened to cause an explosion at 

our school. 

Recently, the electrical panel in our gym caught fire and had to 

be disconnected. The gym does not have a sprinkler system, so we 

were fortunate to catch the fire early and avoid serious injury to 

our students. 

The Bureau has a process for evaluation school construction 

projects and placing them on a priority list for funding, but no new 

projects have been added to the list since 2004. 

Our school and many of the Native American schools are in dire 

need of school replacement, so we urge Congress to direct the Bureau to reopen the process by which schools can submit applications for replacement school construction projects and to restore 61 

million to the school construction account. 

The deferred maintenance backlog for school buildings is well 

over 250 million, yet the Bureau requested only 50.7 million in the 

fiscal year 2012 budget, a mere fraction of what is required to 

make a significant dent in the maintenance backlog. 

Funding of 76 million for facilities’ maintenance and 110 million 

in facilities’ operation funding is but a modest first step in addressing these long-neglected needs. The very real health and safety 

risks that can be reduced by adequate O&M funding seems short 

sided. 

Funding for tribal grand support costs of 72 million in contrast 

to the 46 million in the fiscal year 2012 budget request, this is the 

amount calculated by NCAI as needed to fully fund the indirect 

cost requirements of current tribally-controlled schools and provide 

2 million in start-up funds for newly-converting schools. Tribal 

grant support costs are funds provided to tribally-operated schools 

to cover the administrative costs associated with the operation of 

a school. 

One-hundred twenty-four of the 183 Bureau-funded schools are 

operated by tribal school boards. In fiscal year 2010, the funding 

met only 61 percent of the need, the lowest rate to date. The Bureau estimates the 3 million increase requested for fiscal year 2012 

will fund 65 percent of need, but we believe the 65 percent projection is highly optimistic. 

The consequence of insufficient funding means that we absorb 

more administrative expenses and scale back on prudent management activities. It is hard to comprehend that non-school BIA and 

IHS contractors have received huge increases in the FY ’10, budget 

when tribally-controlled schools have received no increase in funding since 2004. 

Then the fiscal year 2012 budget requests an increase of 25.5 

million for BIA non-school contractors and 50 million increase for 

IHS contractors while the increase requested for schools is only 3 

million. This disparity in the funding is unexplained. 

Good education costs money, and it is our hope and expectation 

the Congress will recognize the tremendous needs that exist in our 

Bureau-funded schools and the potentially-disastrous impact of 

budget reductions. Please join us in supporting a quality educational program for all Native students. 

We are grateful for any assistance you can provide. Thank you. 

[The statement of Faye BlueEyes follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you very much for your testimony. Just a quick 

question or two. 

In addition to the federal funds you receive, do you have any 

other sources of funding? 

Ms. BLUEEYES. We are totally dependent on federal funds. 

Mr. COLE. Has there been any effort to look for other funding? 

Ms. BLUEEYES. Well—— 

Mr. COLE. And I do not want to suggest that is my preferred solution. I understand the challenges you are dealing with. 

Ms. BLUEEYES. Well, we are going to have to start trying to find 

some funding elsewhere, but we are not one of the rich casino 

tribes, so we have nowhere to turn but the Federal Government. 

Mr. COLE. And just for the record, would you give the committee 

an idea of what the per capita income in your area is? 

Ms. BLUEEYES. It is like $14,750. 

Mr. COLE. So quite challenging to raise much local revenue. 

Ms. BLUEEYES. Yes, and no tax base either. 

Mr. COLE. Absolutely. Well, thank you very much for your comments. Do not leave. There may be other people with questions. 

Ms. BLUEEYES. Okay. 

Mr. COLE. We will certainly begin with Mr. Moran, my good 

friend who has a passionate interest in this and who has done a 

lot of great work in these areas for Native Americans. 

Mr. MORAN. Thank you, Chairman Cole. I will not ask any further questions. I think that is the issue, your dependency upon the 

Federal Government and our ability to come through with your 

most basic necessities. 

Ms. BLUEEYES. Yes. 

Mr. MORAN. I do thank you for traveling so far as have all the 

other witnesses and just speaking for myself, I certainly intend to 

work with Mr. Cole and his leadership, Mr. Calvert and Chairman 

Simpson in trying to do as much as we can for the American Indian 

tribes, particularly those that do not have the kinds of resources 

that other tribes may have. 

Ms. BLUEEYES. Thank you. 

Mr. MORAN. So thank you. 

Ms. BLUEEYES. Thank you. 

Mr. COLE. Mr. Calvert. 

Mr. CALVERT. No further questions other than to thank the 

gentlelady for coming today, and certainly we will work with Chairman Cole and Mr. Moran and others to help out Indian Country. 

Ms. BLUEEYES. Thank you very much. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you very much for your testimony. 

If we could next, President Shelly, Navajo Nation. 

Mr. President, how are you? 

Mr. SHELLY. I am okay. Fine. Thank you. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

NAVAJO NATION 

WITNESS 

BEN SHELLY 


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Mr. SHELLY. I would like to say first off that, you know, this is 

a wonderful country, the United States of America, and we have 

a policy which is the constitution, United States Constitution. 

Within that constitution we have under a commercial clause the 

treaty clause and also property clause, and I believe that with the 

constitution is our founding father made policies, and I think we 

need to obey that. 

Mr. Chairman, members of the subcommittee, good morning. I 

am Ben Shelly, President of Navajo Nation. To fight for overall 

prosperity of our community we ask your committee to work with 

us and support the following priorities in your Interior budget; infrastructure development, energy, health, public safety, and education. The Navajo Nation. 

At the Navajo Nation we have a unique relationship with the 

Federal Government. We hope to further our relationship as recognized by the Navajo Treaty of 1868. Your committee can help fulfill 

that treaty obligation and other promise made over our history. 

Navajo support job creation, infrastructure energy development. 

Infrastructure development is a key to job creation. For this reason 

the Navajo Indian Irrigation Project, NIIP, needs full funding. 

NIIP stimulates the economy and the regions. In the proposed 2012 

federal budget NIIP funding was reduced to $4 million. That is embarrassing. Without consulting with the Navajo Nation, Congress 

had passed a law and promised to fund NIIP in its entirety, which 

is estimated at a cost of $500 million to complete. Congress should restore the funding to the NIIP to $26 million 

per year for the next 10 years. The Navajo Nation supports other 

infrastructure projects, the Navajo-Gallup water pipeline. This is 

an infrastructure project that will supply water to residents in the 

region and stimulate farming and agriculture. Additionally, the Nation is working to develop a vast energy resource for job creation. 

Support hospital facility construction priority. Health facility construction funding is critical in our remote but populated area. The 

Nation had five projects on the existing IHS health construction 

priority listing whose costs estimated in a total of $1 billion. Funding shortfall would delay the building of these necessary projects. 

We support funding this line item in 2010 level. 

Public safety and justice service. Two hundred-ninety Navajo Nation law enforcement officers patrol over a vast reservation that is 

equal to the size of West Virginia. There is one police officer for 

every 1,000 residents, and each patrolling the region of 5,000 

square miles. Public safety requires full funding at approximately 

$55 million. Further, the proposed 2012 federal budget includes 

costs to facility construction, which funds jail replacement and employee’s housing. These cuts will impact the safety of our community. We support funding at 2010 level. 

Education. Facility and school construction programs were eliminated in the proposed 2012 federal budget. The Nation has many 

substandard school facilities that need replacement to provide a 

safe learning environment. School construction dollars need to be 

restored to 2010 funding level. Annually the Navajo Nation receives about 13,000 applicants and only half are awarded funding 

to assist with the higher education costs. We request an additional 

$25 million for these education costs. Full restoration of the Pell 


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Grant, and Carl Perkins Fund and others ensure the Navajo student contributes to the American workforce. 

Conclusion, the annual federal budget provides essential needs to 

Indian Country, however, since drastic cuts are made to the proposed 2012 federal funding, we insist that this subcommittee and 

other members of Congress hold the Navajo Nation and other nations harmless from additional cuts for the 2012 budget. We request that this subcommittee honor your treaty obligation and support our budget recommendation for fiscal year 2012. 

Thank you very much. I still have time. 

[The statement of Ben Shelly follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. I am fairly impressed. Mr. Chairman, I will tell you. 

Mr. SHELLY. I am a BIA-educated person. How far I went. Could 

you imagine these college kids nowadays? 

Mr. COLE. Rather than use my time as the acting chairman, I 

want to immediately defer to the real chairman of this committee, 

Mr. Simpson, by whose courtesy I sit in this chair today, so I recognize that and appreciate that. Mr. Chairman, do you have any 

opening questions? 

Mr. SIMPSON. No. I really do not, but I want to thank you for 

being here and your testimony, and I apologize for our earlier 

schedule of having the Indian tribes come and testify a couple of 

weeks ago, I guess it was, or three weeks ago when we were scheduled, but we were in the middle of a little bit of a debate about the 

budget, and we were not sure we were going to be open the next 

week, and all that kind of stuff, and so we decided it was best to 

cancel them rather than have everybody here and then us be 

closed. So we know that is an imposition to all of you that came 

to testify, and thank you for coming back as we rescheduled this. 

Mr. SHELLY. Yes. Can I say something on that? We were ready 

for the shutdown, but when we done that, we would also look at 

our finance we depend on mostly, we found out three-fourths, well, 

let’s say about 80 percent of our budget is dependent on Federal 

Government, and we are going to turn that around. We are going 

to try to change it to where it is about equal. We are trying to work 

with energy policies and others to make that happen. 

All it is this Code of Federal Regulations prevent us to do things. 

We need to change, be more flexible with that and working with 

the Interior and Congress that maybe energy policies so that we 

can use our natural resources to create jobs, economics, and so on. 

So we are working on that so we realize that depending on the 

Federal Government should not go on forever. We need to stop that 

somewhere. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. 

Mr. SHELLY. Thank you. All right. 

Mr. COLE. No, no. We are not done yet. 

Mr. SHELLY. We are not done? Oh, I am sorry. 

Mr. COLE. I am sure there will be other questions. I want to call 

on Mr. Moran for any questions. 

Mr. MORAN. That is fine, Mr. Cole. Thanks. 

Mr. COLE. Mr. Calvert, do you have any? 

Mr. CALVERT. No questions at this time. Thank you. 

Mr. COLE. I have one question actually. What would have been 

the consequences for you and for the Navajo Nation had there been 

a Federal Government shutdown? 

Mr. SHELLY. Probably what we would have done is that the one 

that our probably police, fire department, some direct services are 

going to keep running. The one that is under 638, some of those 

would probably keep running, and I would say shutting it down we 

probably would be in operation to keep the Nation running about 

30 percent. Everybody else would be off. 

Mr. COLE. From an already pretty low level. 

Mr. SHELLY. Yeah. Very low. So we had some general fund that 

picks up that 30 percent, too, so we do not have much, but we could 

have used that to run it. 


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Mr. MORAN. Will you yield, Mr. Cole? 

Mr. COLE. Certainly will. 

Mr. MORAN. So two-thirds of the activities on the reservation 

would be unfunded, would have shut down? 

Mr. SHELLY. Well, most of them will be. It depends on what kind 

of grant it is, what kind of funding it is to base on that. 

Mr. MORAN. I wanted to make sure I understood that. Thank 

you. 

Mr. COLE. Yes. It is very uneven across Indian Country. It is obvious tribes that have other sources of incomes can continue to operate, but the more dependent you are to the Federal Government, 

the more challenging these kind of shutdowns are. 

Mr. SHELLY. It is. It is. We realized that, and we are working on 

it heavily, and we want to turn that around somehow and creating 

jobs is very important to us and revenue. We have so much to offer 

with our natural resources. We have the sun, the wind, and just 

let us go. Take care of some of that Code of Federal Regulations 

that keeps us down, lift that for us, we can run with it. 

Mr. COLE. If I can ask you one more question, maybe one or two 

more actually, Mr. President. You mentioned in your testimony and 

just alluded to the fact you have some energy projects that you 

think are important and would help you increase your self-sufficiency. Can you quickly tell us what those are and what the obstacles are for developing those kind of resources? 

Mr. SHELLY. Let me put it this way. I did it in my testimony 

with Subcommittee on Energy with Indian Affairs. These are bipartisan groups that when we went before I mentioned something like 

Indian tribes are so heavily over-regulated. We are not playing the 

same level game as any other energy company. Like state, if we 

want to drill oil, it takes forever to get a permit because of the federal regulations. Yet a private business driller that is going to drill 

oil it does not take them long to get the permits, but there is a lot 

of difference. 

Mr. COLE. Well, we would certainly like to work with you and see 

what we can do to streamline that process so you have more control over the resources in your own Nation and are able to use 

them as you see fit as opposed to how others may see fit. 

Mr. SHELLY. It has to happen. You know, education, we have 

been, you know, taking our kids, give them an education, what we 

can muster in money to get them through. They are back. I have 

got one here. He is my energy policy advisor. Sam Wood. Look how 

young he is. Sam, get up. He is my energy policy. He is going to 

be doing all the policy for us. He has been working with Young, 

Chairman Young on the Subcommittee on Energy. He will be working with them, so he provides some draft from us. 

They wanted to do it. I told him, I said, himself, I said, do not 

do it yourself. Let me get involved and let the Nation get involved 

because we know what we want done. So we are working with 

them. Maybe we can put it together and make it happen. 

Mr. COLE. I would very much like to see any recommendations 

or proposals that you have that would assist you. 

Mr. SHELLY. We want to work with you. I will make sure that 

Sam works with you on that to give you something we are working 

on at energy. We will do that. And, again, I would like to say really 


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recognize Native America. We offer so much. We fulfill our agenda 

with the United States Government. We have always done that. 

What is I hear this past Sunday, Geronimo E–KIA? There was 

youth and—— 

Mr. COLE. Geronimo is actually buried in my district, and I will 

tell you the Fort Sill Apaches were not happy at the use of that 

particular nickname. 

Mr. SHELLY. I know. I got a lot of emails and Facebook that says 

they are questioning that, and the code talker. We have one left out 

of 29 code talkers, and a lot of us like to, I will tell you right now 

to tell you the truth, a lot of us if the language, the Navajo language was never used, a lot of us will not be here. 

Mr. COLE. Again, as one of my Fort Sill Apaches pointed out, 

they would have never gotten Geronimo. He came in voluntarily. 

Thank you very much, Mr. President. Appreciate it. 

I am sorry. I did not see you come in Mr. Flake. I apologize. 

Questions or comments? 

Mr. FLAKE. No. 

Mr. SHELLY. See, he is part of the subcommittee. 

Mr. COLE. Well, it is good to have him on your side of the table. 

He may be in a much higher body not too long from now. 

Mr. SHELLY. He is a good man. 

Mr. COLE. Mr. President, thank you very much for your testimony. We appreciate it very much. 

And if we could, we will move onto Ms. Garcia. 

Oh. I am sorry. We just have you in a different panel, but that 

is fine. We would be more than happy to take your testimony right 

now. Thank you very much. I am sorry. 

Mr. MAXX. I have to sit here with my president. 

Mr. COLE. Well, it is good to do what they tell you to do. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

NAVAJO HOPI LAND COMMISSION OFFICE OF THE 

NAVAJO NATION 

WITNESS 

RAYMOND MAXX 

Mr. MAXX. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, thank 

you for the opportunity. My name is Raymond Maxx. I am an executive director of Navajo Hopi Land Commission Office. It is an entity of the Navajo Nation. Thank you for the opportunity to provide 

testimony on what is one of the most vexing matters in modern 

federal Indian policy and a true tragedy for the Navajo Nation. 

When I was very young, my family lived in District 6, an area 

that was declared exclusively Hopi. Although we had lived there for 

generations, we were forced to leave. At the time the Federal Government provided no benefits for moving. We just had to move. 

We relocated to the Big Mound Area in what was known as a 

joint use area, owned together by Navajo and Hopi according to 

court decree. In the late 1970s when we had just about reestablished ourselves and our livelihood after land a federal mediator divided the joint use area, and we found ourselves again on Hopi 


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land. We moved to the nearest portion of the Navajo Reservation, 

the Bennett Freeze area. 

I do not think my parents fully understood at the time as a matter of federal law you would almost never get permission to fix your 

home in the Bennett Freeze, that you would not make additions, 

that no federal travel or state programs would assist your community through building of infrastructure essential to the health and 

well-being of any community. 

As a result, the Bennett Freeze area was locked into the poverty 

of 1966, when the freeze was imposed. The final agreement to resolve the travel land dispute and end the freeze provided that most 

of the disputed area belonged to the Navajo Nation. For the thousands of Navajo families who lived there this means that the freeze 

served no real purpose other than to bring them misery and hardship. 

In his proposed fiscal year 2012 budget President Obama has set 

aside 1.2 million to begin redeveloping the former Bennett Freeze 

area. In the budget justification the Administration notes that 

more than 12,000 Navajo people lived in an area where subject to 

the 41-year freeze on development. During the freeze era the Navajo people were prohibited from building new homes, schools, 

health facilities, constructing electricity, water, roads, et cetera, 

and community economic development projects. 

While the President’s budget request is welcomed, it is intended 

to be spent largely on land use and agricultural purposes. While 

these purposes are important, the number one need in this area 

based on extensive independent study completed last year is improving housing. I would propose that an additional 5 million in 

BIA funds be set aside for immediate critical housing repairs and 

construction and that this committee direct the BIA and HUD to 

come by with a larger housing construction plan for this area. 

This committee should establish a trust fund for reconstruction 

of the former Bennett Freeze area with an initial investment of 10 

million. For the former Bennett Freeze area to recover, there must 

be a sustained reconstruction program implemented over a decade 

or more. 

Congress should authorize the Office of Navajo Hopi Relocation 

near to oversee their reconstruction activities with the Navajo Nation having the option of assuming control of these activities that 

affect Navajo people and lands as well as the option of assuming 

control of the trust fund proposed above. 

Office of Navajo Indian Relocation, we would ask that the budget, which in recent years has ranged from 8 to 9 million, be increased to 50 percent, increased by 50 percent to accelerate the 

provision of benefits for those many families who relocated but 

have not received their benefits. 

And in conclusion, although the Navajo Hopi land dispute and 

the Bennett Freeze are painful issues, I thank the committee for 

this opportunity to provide testimony on the path forward to assure 

that the many Navajo families who have suffered under these federal actions can have hope for a better life. 

Thank you, and if you have questions, I am ready to respond. 

[The statement of Raymond Maxx follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Mr. Maxx, thank you very much for your testimony. 

I think we have heard about this issue before. It has been a matter 

of considerable concern. 

I just have one question before I defer to my colleagues. You mentioned the Administration’s proposed $1.2 million to begin to 

address the problem. Have there in previous years been much in 

the way of funding to help deal with this freeze issue? 

Mr. MAXX. There has been no federal funding until now with this 

Administration. They are creating a line item to address the Bennett Freeze issues, and the Bennett Freeze is like third world within the Navajo Nation. We are like 30, 40 years behind the mainstream Navajo, and you know, we need help to get back on our feet 

with, you know, support and funding to rehabilitate homes and infrastructure. 

Mr. COLE. I just wanted to get into the record that to the Administration’s credit they have actually proposed doing something, and 

nothing else had been done up to this point, but obviously, we have 

a terrific problem then. 

Mr. MAXX. Uh-huh. 

Mr. COLE. If I could, I will go to Mr. Moran for any comments 

or questions he might have. 

Mr. MORAN. On the face of it, it seems probably unjust to the 

Navajo who were displaced. I do not know enough about it to offer 

thoughtful comments, let alone questions. I do intend to discuss 

this with you, though, Mr. Cole, if you do not mind, get your perspective but I remember we did do something last year, and I do 

think it is the kind of thing we need to focus on and see if we cannot rectify. Thank you. 

Mr. COLE. Absolutely. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I would just say that I am in the same boat that 

Mr. Moran is. I have tried to understand this and what the heck 

the policies were that created this situation and how we get out of 

it and how we remedy it. It is a subject that, I do not know, I need 

a book or something, a little history book, that will give me the 

basis of how the genesis of all this and from that I would then be 

able to hopefully have a better opinion about what is going on, and 

now we might be able to help you solve the problem. 

So if you guys have any information, I read all night long, so I 

would love to sit down and educate myself a little bit more about 

the policies that created this situation. 

Mr. MORAN. Well, if Mike is going to read all night long, I will 

just wait until he reads it up, save myself some time. 

Mr. COLE. Mr. Maxx, would you care to comment on either of 

these two remarks just in terms of helping educate the committee 

a little bit? 

Mr. MAXX. The freeze was implemented in 1966, and—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. But why? 

Mr. COLE. There was a dispute between the Hopi and the Navajo 

Nation. 

Mr. MAXX. The land dispute between the Navajo and the Hopis. 

Mr. COLE. And it took 41 years to make a decision. 

Mr. MAXX. And through court actions and back and forth the two 

tribes sat down, and, you know, settled the dispute, and that was 

in 2006. Since then, you know, we have been, you know, reaching 


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out, you know, for development funds, and you know, the people in 

the area, they have been, you know, in probably worse state than 

depression for 40 years and—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. Because your economic development was frozen? 

Mr. MAXX. Yes. Everything was frozen. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Until a decision was made? 

Mr. MAXX. Yeah. 

Mr. CALVERT. Would the gentleman yield on that for a second? 

When you say frozen, does it mean that the funding levels were 

frozen at a certain amount for a period of time and the amounts 

for your neighbor, the Navajo, the rest of the Navajo Nation, had 

gone up? So, basically you were held at a lower amount for a longer 

period of time and that put you in that dire financial situation you 

were talking about? 

Mr. MAXX. It is not the funding that was frozen. It was the—— 

Mr. COLE. They were not allowed to construct homes and such. 

Mr. MAXX [continuing]. Development. 

Mr. CALVERT. It was development? 

Mr. MAXX. Yeah. Even if we were to receive funding, you know, 

we could not develop anything because we had to get permission 

from the Hopi Tribe and federal agencies. 

Mr. CALVERT. Thank you. 

Mr. MAXX. Yeah, and I have this information maybe I can forward. 

Mr. CALVERT. Please do. 

Mr. MAXX. And, you know, distribute it among the committee. 

That would be more information. We also have a bill that we would 

like to get introduced and then some pictures and more information 

that would, you know, address all the phases of the land dispute. 

There is a District 6 and the relocation and then the Bennett 

Freeze, and you know, this bill would, you know, encompass the 

whole, you know, the phases of the land dispute. And this land dispute has been going on for over 100 years. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Is the land dispute resolved now since 2006, or 

whatever it was? 

Mr. MAXX. The Bennett Freeze is resolved, and there is still 

some litigation outstanding in the relocation era, so it is almost resolved. Hopefully we can get past that and start rebuilding. 

Mr. COLE. Right. 

Mr. MAXX. With the support of the leadership here, you know, 

we can do that. 

Mr. COLE. Mr. Calvert, do you have any additional questions? 

Mr. CALVERT. No additional questions. 

Mr. COLE. Mr. Flake. 

Mr. FLAKE. No. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you very much for your testimony, and thank 

you particularly for the submission of the additional information. 

Very helpful. 

Mr. MAXX. Thank you very much. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you. If we could, we are going to bring our next 

two witnesses up together. Martha Garcia and Nancy MartineAlonzo. Thank you. It is good to have you here. I will be happy to 

let you choose who should speak first. 

Ms. GARCIA. Okay. I will go first. 


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Mr. COLE. Please identify yourself for the record, please. 

Ms. GARCIA. Okay. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

RAMAH BAND OF NAVAJO/RAMAH NAVAJO CHAPTER 

WITNESS 

MARTHA GARCIA 

Ms. GARCIA. My name is Martha Garcia. I am the Ramah Navajo 

Chapter Development Officer. Our President, Rodger Martinez, is 

not able to be here with us today because he has a conflicting 

schedule with the reschedule hearing date, but thank you for the 

opportunity. Mr. Chair, Mr. Simpson, and members of this committee, I am just really happy for me to come before almost a full 

committee. Over the years I have been coming here and presenting 

testimony, and this is the first time that I am really honored to be 

presenting before five members of this committee. 

Today I am focusing on the need for additional fundings to address the unmet needs of our Ramah Navajo community, and our 

needs as we have presented earlier $2,670,610 is our need, but 

then between the rescheduled dates, the Bureau of Indian Affairs 

came in and started working with us, so that has come down to 

$2,400,000 plus, so it pays to make that extra effort to come before 

the committee and work with you. 

So I just have to request the first one is the Bureau of Indian 

Affairs Office of Justice Service funding for the operations and 

maintenance of the detention facilities. Ramah Navajo Chapter has 

been submitting proposals over the years requesting for construction funds to build a detention facility. Our law enforcement detention center has been about the size of this room for many years 

since the ’70s, and finally when the ARRA Fund came through we 

were very much surprised and very happy to have received an 

award of $3.8 million to construct a detention facility. And it will 

be completed in the year 2012, which is only a year away. 

But in the meantime now we need to staff the new detention facilities, and that is our request. It is a startup cost to pay for the 

equipment, furniture, and whatever that is needed to put the detention facilities up to standard and also to staff that. We would 

need to staff that, so there is a one-time funding request and then 

a recurring fund, and I know that within the budget request there 

is an increase being proposed of $10.4 million to address the need 

to staff many detention facilities across the Indian Country. 

And we would like to ensure that our request, and we support 

that effort to have this done so that we can be part of that, and 

our request is at $1.8 million, and in regard to that part of it, we 

hope that it would become a recurring fund so we would continue 

to maintain and operate the detention facilities. 

Our second request that we have been coming here for and slowly we are making progress is to fund the Natural Resources Training Facilities in the amount of $600,000. It was more in the previous year. We were very fortunate that we were able to get 

$150,000 from the State of New Mexico over a year ago. This past 


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year we were not very fortunate because they also had budget 

problems. 

But with that we are able to at least construct the framework of 

the training facilities, and we just need to have it completed, and 

then we are also asking, again, for increase in the staff for the operation, which is a trust responsibility of the Federal Government, 

and we have been working very closely with our local BIA agency 

to implement the program as it is needed. 

And the last request that I was going to make, that has been fulfilled and it is in process, and that is also to put in a building, replace the building that real estate and natural resources have been 

using for over 30 years, and it previously was used by the Bureau 

of Indian Affairs when they were running the programs. But now 

we are having a building being brought in and be set up, and we 

will have that implemented and run a full service as we would like 

to see it done. We have had some issues and problems because of 

the current building. It cannot accommodate wireless services and 

all that, but now we are able to do that and be able to put in the 

service so that we can have closer ties with the central and our 

title plant in Albuquerque. 

So that has worked out, and I would like to thank Congress for 

helping us over the years. There has been many positive exchange 

that has happened, and starting back in the ’70s, and I remember 

coming before the committee at the time and been doing that for 

a number of years, and I have seen many positive results that has 

truly benefited our people out there. 

So with that I thank you. 

[The statement of Martha Garcia follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you for your testimony. 

Ms. MARTINE-ALONZO. I love those squash blossoms. They are 

gorgeous. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

RAMAH NAVAJO SCHOOL BOARD 

WITNESS 

NANCY MARTINE-ALONZO 

Ms. MARTINE-ALONZO. Thank you very much. Mr. Chair, Mr. 

Simpson, and members of the subcommittee, my name is Nancy 

Martine-Alonzo. I am President of the Ramah Navajo School Board, 

and we have been in operation for 41 years, and we started out almost with direct Congressional funding, so I thank you on behalf 

of our community for all the years that we have been able to benefit from that. We have graduated over 800 students, and many of 

our students have gone on to become very successful doctors, lawyers, CPAs, and all walks of life, and it is truly a blessing to see 

that. 

We are here to speak on several priorities that we have, but the 

number one need that we have is our ARRA Funding was appropriated to repair and maintain one of the elementary buildings, 

and in the process of that project we uncovered structural damage 

from water, damage from black mold, and also termites in the 

building. And so the building needs to be replaced now. 

However, you have heard other testimonies that talked about the 

lack of construction dollars, and so we are here to request that you 

consider approving and putting construction dollars back in the 

funding, and we need about $5.6 million for that elementary school. 

Right now our children are displaced. They are using some of the 

middle school and high school for classroom spaces, and so we are 

in very tight quarters, and we operated that way for a year, and 

we really would like to be able to put our children back in appropriate classroom settings. 

The second funding need that we have is for water and sewer. 

Our facilities are over 35 years old and over the years we have expanded our facilities, and so there is more consumers on the water 

and the sewer system and just due to the aging material, you 

know, we need to replace and update all of the infrastructure that 

is there, and so our request is for $2.5 million to take care of that. 

And then in addition to that we also are requesting $3.5 million 

for our elderly community center. We know that we have a large 

population of elderly who need more care now in their later years, 

and many of them do not wish to be sent to nursing homes outside 

the communities. And so one of the solutions is to have a community center where we can provide more or less part-time daycare 

for some of our elders where they can receive kind of a one-stop 

service for their health and for other needs. And so that is something that is a priority as well. 

In addition to that, we are just asking for continued support and 

funding for the ISEP dollars, the money that is dedicated for the 

core education programs and the 638 contract schools, and we also 


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are in need of the indirect costs because we do need funds to be 

able to operate our schools and operate our clinics and all of the 

638 projects that we have we have not received, you know, the full 

100 percent funding for that. We have received about 50 or 60 percent every year, and we would like to see that move up to a higher 

number. Of course, eventually 100 percent because that was the 

law, but we have not realized that for a long, long time. 

We are also asking for funding for the tribal schools. We have a 

lot of young people that do not belong to colleges, but they do go 

to our tribal colleges for vocational or for two-year programs, and 

that is a real critical need. So any funding that you can provide in 

the area to continue the support of our young people so that they 

can, in turn, become productive citizens of our tribal reservations 

as well as the global society, we would really appreciate that. 

And so we thank you for all of these, and we provided written 

testimony. We have also provided additional documents explaining 

all of the areas in detail. So thank you very much. 

[The statement of Nancy Martine-Alonzo follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you for your testimony. I actually have no 

questions. 

Mr. Moran. 

Mr. MORAN. No. I am fine. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Just out of curiosity, the committee appropriates 

money in general categories for, say, school construction. Any idea 

where the elementary school you are talking about that you need 

$5.4 million I think you said for, where that would fall? 

I assume the BIA has a priority list for school construction. 

Ms. MARTINE-ALONZO. Yes. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Any idea where that falls within that priority list 

and what it would take to get to that level? 

Ms. MARTINE-ALONZO. Our elementary school is pretty high on 

the repair and maintenance. That is why we were able to get the 

ARRA dollars, but at the time it was not determined for a replacement. And so it was not on the list anywhere up at least the top, 

and you have been funding, I think you have ten more that you 

have slated to fund, and that is still in progress. I think four of 

them are still in the pipeline. 

But you had committee work that has been going on now for 

about maybe 18 months where there is a committee that is working 

on criteria for reassessing the schools and putting them in another 

priority listing, and more than likely our school would not rise to 

that because we probably do not fit in any of that category because 

these conditions were discovered through the error, through the repair and maintenance process. And so it is not anywhere neatly on 

a list anywhere. 

So the only way that it could get done is if you were able to ask 

the BIA and asking them to focus on that school, what the status 

is, and what did they need, because when we talked to BIA on it, 

we have been working with them because that is what ARRA funds 

require us to do is to work closely with them. We have a year’s 

time to finish all the projects. We are slated to finish by May 31, 

and we are pretty much on schedule to do that. 

And so in doing that the BIA has said we do not have any new 

construction dollars immediately in this budget or in the next 

budget, and we do not have any other ARRA funds that are coming 

back as surplus anywhere. So we just really do not have any answers for you, and the jury is still out on whether or not we will 

get our building repaired right away, I mean, replaced right away. 

And that is why our only option is to come to this committee to 

see if you could help us with that. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I appreciate that. It is true not only with school 

construction but with detention facilities and other justice facilities 

that we put things in a category when we appropriate money, and 

sometimes there are needs out there that if you are not on that priority list or in a certain place, even if we increased money for that 

fund, it might not get down to you. 

Ms. MARTINE-ALONZO. Yes. 

Mr. SIMPSON. So I appreciate your testimony. Thank you. 

Ms. MARTINE-ALONZO. Thank you. 

Mr. COLE. There must be other cases like this where ARRA funding—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. I suspect they are all over. 


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Mr. COLE [continuing]. Found places that we thought we could 

repair and then learned later that we could not. That would be 

something worth checking into from an administration standpoint, 

if they are running into this problem elsewhere because I would 

suspect your situation is not totally unique. 

Ms. MARTINE-ALONZO. I am sure. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Well, and the other thing we found, Mr. Chairman, 

is that as you well know, some of the ARRA funding did construction for some things, it does not do any good to do construction if 

you do not have the resources to actually put the personnel in the 

justice center or in the health clinic or whatever you have built out 

there, and that is some of the challenges we are facing. 

Mr. CALVERT. Just one comment, Mr. Chairman. Excuse me. Go 

ahead, Mr. Moran. 

Mr. COLE. Well, Mr. Moran has already had his time, but Ms. 

McCollum just arrived and has not had an opportunity, so I wanted 

to go to her next. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Well, thank you, and I just got back from the 

State Department where we were talking about maternal child 

health internationally and I said there are some things we can do 

for women right here in this country, and I fully engaged members 

of the panel to talk about what we can do for maternal child 

health. 

But you are here on school construction right now, and I do have 

a question. I know that there has been a survey that has taken 

place on some of the Navajo reservation land with the uranium 

dust, and is the school in that belt or that zone where there has 

been some observation and reexamination of radiation contaminant 

from the mining? 

Ms. MARTINE-ALONZO. The Ramah Navajo reservation land is 60 

miles from grants from the area where the uranium mining has 

taken place. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Okay. So Mr. Chair, I was just wondering if 

that was also on impact, that this school was looking at. I was 

being creative in other ways that we might approach other people 

for help. 

Thank you. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you. Mr. Calvert. 

Mr. CALVERT. Just a comment. You know, property manager, 

sometimes when you do not spend the money on repair and maintenance over the years and you build up this maintenance criteria to 

the point where you cannot fix it anymore, I suspect that this is 

going on throughout the BIA management community. 

Ms. MARTINE-ALONZO. In many cases, yes. Uh-huh. 

Mr. CALVERT. And there are probably a lot of facilities could have 

been enjoyed for a further period of time if, in fact, they had gone 

ahead and upheld their obligation to do the repairs and the maintenance in a timely fashion. So we end up spending a lot more money 

because we do not do the maintenance and the operations in the 

first place. 

And since the gentlelady brought up uranium, I was just curious, 

do the Navajo Nation enjoy a particular royalty from that mining? 

Are there any benefits from that at all that you get? Is that on 

Navajo property? 


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Ms. MARTINE-ALONZO. I would defer that question to President 

Shelly if he is still in the house. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Mr. Chair, for the most part I would say a big 

no. They have had water pollution, they have had housing issues 

with dust moving forward, and might be something that the Chairman and Mr. Cole, at some point we can get an update. 

We worked with the Bush Administration in government reform 

to get everybody in the room talking to each other, because everybody was pointing the agency finger about who was responsible for 

the cleanup, and that is why I was wondering if the school was impacted, but I would say for the most part it is a big not positive 

for the Navajo reservation, but they should speak for themselves. 

Mr. CALVERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. COLE. Mr. Flake. 

Mr. FLAKE. No questions. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you, ladies, for your testimony. Appreciate it 

very much. 

Ms. MARTINE-ALONZO. Thank you very much. 

Mr. COLE. Mr. Honyaoma, Todd, Vice President of the Native 

American Grant School Association. Good to see you. 

Mr. HONYAOMA. How are you? 

Mr. COLE. Very good. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

NATIVE AMERICAN GRANT SCHOOL ASSOCIATION 

WITNESS 

TODD HONYAOMA 

Mr. HONYAOMA. Good morning, Honorable Chairman Simpson 

and Chairman Cole, and honorable members of the committee. 

My name is Todd Honyaoma. I am a Hopi Tribal member, member of the Spider Clan as you can see. I am President of HotevillaBacavi Community School located on the Hopi Indian Reservation 

east of Flagstaff, and I am the former Vice Chairman of the Hopi 

Tribe also. And I have here with me my big man, my body guard, 

Jeff Mike from Navajo Nation, Pinon Community School. 

I serve as the Executive Board of Vice President for Native 

American Grant School Association. We consist of 17 school members throughout the southwest, including Navajo Nation in Arizona, New Mexico, Hopi Nation, White Mountain Apache, and also 

the Gila River Pima tribes would consist of those schools, grant 

schools. 

I am here today to present NAGSA’s statement to draw Congressional attention to the impacts of declining under-funding of BIAfunded schools, especially our grossly-under-funded travel grant 

support costs. 

In the fiscal year 2012 proposed budget on travel-operated 

schools the United States Government has a binding treaty, trust 

responsibility, and a legal obligation to educate all Native American children forever. The right to attend good schools should be 

the birthright of every child in America. The government recogVerDate Mar 15 2010 04:23 Jun 30, 2011 Jkt 066982 PO 00000 Frm 00321 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A982P2.XXX A982P2

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nizes that it would provide the highest quality education and basic 

necessities to Indian tribes forever. 

We are expressing our concern about the current budgeting crisis 

affecting all federal agencies and particularly to address the impact 

of potential budgeting shortfalls on BIA-funded schools such as our 

member schools. 

Travel grant support costs. We were promised 100 percent funding, formerly known as the Administrative Cost Grant, to cover the 

operation or indirect costs for the operation of our schools. This 

funding is applied to the cost of schools for administrators, business management, human resources department, payroll, accounting, insurance, background checks, other legal reporting, recordkeeping requirements, including annual audits. 

We receive only 61 percent of our administrative costs. Some 

other tribal contractors such as Indian Health Service, IHS, receive 

a higher percentage. Now, why are we different? 

We want full funding. If you were to fund us tomorrow, we would 

ask for 72 million. Transportation, dirt roads, as you may know, 

Hopi, Navajo, we operate our busses on nothing but dirt roads. The 

majority of our roads are dirt roads, and when it gets muddy, it 

gets muddy, a foot deep. We bus our students long distances, 20, 

30 miles on dirt roads. Let us set up after-school activity bus runs, 

and with high fuel costs today in Hopi we have our average $4.15 

a gallon at this point. Diesel is a whole lot different story for buses. 

If we were to be funded tomorrow, we would ask for 61 million in 

that area. 

New school replacements. Our school is over 60 plus years old. 

When you sit in there, there is cracks in the walls. You can sit in 

there, and you can see right outside the wall on the other side. I 

usually jokingly say if there is a social dance, you can kick back 

in the school and watch them dance on the other side. That is how 

big the cracks are. 

Asbestos is another issue. We had a lot of patchwork done to our 

school. We could go down the hallway, there is asbestos in there, 

but sheetrock is covering it right at this point, and that is very 

dangerous for our students. 

New school construction was zeroed out. We would like this to 

be restored. NCAI, National Congress of American Indians, in its 

budget fiscal year 2012 budget request estimated that it would 

take 2.4 million just to keep pace with the growing need for facility 

construction and repairs, but we are only asking that you restore 

61 million at this time. 

In closing, you promised us that you would be solely responsible 

for funding Native American schools at their highest quality. You 

are not coming close to keeping that promise. This promise has 

been broken. We are not asking for Welfare entitlement or any 

such thing. We are asking the Federal Government to honor their 

past due, and this is past due treaties, agreement, declarations, 

Presidential declarations that we have done. 

And with that I want to bless you all. May the Creator bless everybody, all of us here today. 

[The statement of Todd Honyaoma follows:] 


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Mr. HONYAOMA. I am going to put the floor over, give him the 

floor. Do you have anything to say? 

Mr. MIKE. Well, I just wanted to say good morning to Chairman 

Cole, Chairman Simpson, and the members of the subcommittee 

here, and I just wanted to go ahead and follow up on Mr. 

Honyaoma here based on his testimony here that we do rely on the 

Federal Government quite a bit for our educational needs, but that 

is only because it states that in the NCLB, No Child Left Behind. 

And it also is a trust responsibility that the Federal Government 

has up this point, and we are trying to have the Federal Government live up to their responsibility of educating our young ones, 

our Native American children so that we may be able to have the 

same quality education as everybody else in the United States of 

America. 

So I just wanted to follow with Mr. Honyaoma that way. Thank 

you. 

Mr. COLE. Well, thank you both for your testimony. I do have a 

question. It just might be helpful for the committee. I would be 

very interested on what your funding per student is versus the average in Arizona. What would be the differential for a child going 

to a BIE school and one that you operated versus, you know—— 

Mr. HONYAOMA. Currently right now we are sort of like fluctuating back and forth because of the rolling average. 

Mr. COLE. Uh-huh. 

Mr. HONYAOMA. They are considering per capita versus ADM, average daily membership count that we used to have. BIA is still 

trying to figure out what they want to do, and they are the one 

that does the figures to the tribes. And we are doing ours, but we 

still think that BIA should be the one to come up with a policy of 

some sort. Okay. This is what we are going to go under, but they 

are throwing things at us, and we are saying that, no, it is no use. 

It is good that we have the opportunity, but when it comes to the 

Bureau, I do not know where it goes. I am pretty sure it never gets 

here, which I hate to say. 

But I sat on a transportation committee for the Hopi Tribe, and 

we understand some green book does all the evaluations and all 

the reports. That never makes it to Congress. So my thoughts are 

after seeing that everything that we do on tribal nations through 

the Bureau never gets to the highest. Maybe that is the reason why 

we are getting real low funding. 

Mr. COLE. Again, if you can help us on this with the staff, I 

would love just to see the difference on a roughly per-pupil basis 

what the funding that the children that are going to the schools 

you are talking about are getting and what, you know, in the 

broader community a statewide average would be. Just make it 

very striking what the difference is. 

Mr. HONYAOMA. And we submitted a package. It should be in 

there. If not, we will follow right back up as soon as possible with 

those figures for your information. 

Mr. COLE. Yes. Please do. 

Mr. HONYAOMA. Yes. With the other states comparison. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you. Ms. McCollum. 

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culate it. I know in Minnesota we took transportation out of the 

per-pupil unit to account for it differently, and as states have cut 

their budgets, they have often cut their transportation budgets, but 

you cannot cut your transportation budget. 

Mr. HONYAOMA. No, we cannot. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. You cannot start telling kids even though roads 

are dangerous to walk because it is too far. Could you maybe comment for a second on Head Start and your interactions with Head 

Start Programs, which is funded in a different pot of money than 

this committee has but maybe the impact of Head Start, lack of 

Head Start, waiting list to Head Start to give the children that you 

serve a boost when they start in the traditional grade schools? 

Mr. HONYAOMA. Well, in the past I will put myself back in my 

former vice chairman role in the Hopi Tribe. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. That is why I figured I could ask you. 

Mr. HONYAOMA. But what we did was Head Start is completely 

different from first grade on up to eighth grade. So they had their 

own pot of funding, and the director of the Head Start monitored 

all of those programs, but what money that we had available from 

the Hopi Tribe as a whole and that was not used for other things, 

like for example, transportation, teacher, we are very bad with 

buildings. Our Hopi Reservation consists of nothing but trailers for 

Head Start, and that was very back. They were falling apart. So 

we ended up having to foot their bills, and we tried asking the Bureau to supplement or replenish us back what we have tried to put 

out, but so far until the day I got out of office we have never got 

anything back. 

And that hurts me because that is our roots. Head Start is our 

roots of the foundation of our lives. They are the ones that are 

going to lead us into the future, and I think we need to focus a lot 

of our attention on that and our veterans. We had talked about 

that today, because if it was not for them, we would not be here 

in this free country. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Thank you. 

Mr. HONYAOMA. But there is a lot to do with that. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I bring this up because 

I and I am sure you have had some of the same conversations, 

monies that the tribes might have put into schools where we were 

short, where the Federal Government was short on the funding, 

they struggled between do we put it into Head Start, or do we put 

it into traditional K–12, and when you know how important Head 

Start is, early childhood with all the information coming out, it is 

starting to become even a deeper, deeper struggle for many of the 

Native American communities. 

Thank you, Mr. Chair. 

Mr. HONYAOMA. And it is affecting all the tribes. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. No. 

Mr. COLE. Mr. Calvert. 

Mr. CALVERT. Not at this time, but thank you. 

Mr. COLE. Mr. Flake. 

Mr. FLAKE. Yes, sir. With regard to limited funding again, in Arizona there is a mix of funding that goes to a lot of these schools 


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you are referring to. Is there any state funding that is pulled 

down? 

Mr. HONYAOMA. No. As far as I am concerned there is no state 

funding. It is nothing but Bureau operated, but I can tell you this. 

Back when I was in office we had a situation with our state. They 

were accusing us of double-dipping because states had competitive 

funding, grant funding, and we applied for that as schools. We got 

the money, and the state legislature started saying, well, you are 

double-dipping, Indian tribes, because you get money from the Federal Government, plus you are asking for money from the state. 

But to me they funnel through the same process. Just like Federal Highways Administration. Well, it is the state and the Bureau, 

and that is all we were trying to do is take advantage of the opportunity for grants to further enhance our education, our students, 

but that was when we were criticized. So, no, we do not get anything from the state. 

Mr. FLAKE. I recall that. That is why I brought it up. So you did 

receive funding for a time under that or not? 

Mr. HONYAOMA. Just a short time. 

Mr. FLAKE. Okay. 

Mr. HONYAOMA. And that was it, and after that everything closed 

up. 

Mr. FLAKE. Okay. Thank you. 

Mr. COLE. There are real problems here just in the sense that 

tribal governments do not have the power to tax. Obviously we 

have very low per capital income anyway, so, I would love to see 

statistics on, the amount of dollars per kid on a reservation and the 

amount of dollars per kid immediately off the reservation, because 

there is a federal trust responsibility. I do not know how you could 

argue we would be spending less money on the kids that we are 

responsible for than the state surrounding is putting for its children. 

And yet I am sure you would find out again and again that this 

is not just a minor differential. It would be a factor of two or three 

times in many cases, and there is just no way, schools can operate 

at that kind of disadvantage and be able to provide those children 

with the education that they deserve. 

Mr. MIKE. And just to add to what you are saying as far as the 

disparity between the funding, you would have to understand the 

impact of environment that our schools are located and our homes 

are located. Just for our school, Pinon Community School, is only 

a kindergarten school, but we have a residential as well, but the 

kindergarten, we go door to door to their homes and bring them in 

and take them back every day. 

Then on top of that it gets really hard during winter season, during seasons where some of these roads become impassible. That is 

where this transportation costs come in, and a lot of times it is not 

enough to cover all of that as far as some of our buses, even the 

four-wheel drive, they are stuck halfway in mud ruts, and so we 

have children on there and kind of safety issues, things like that. 

Mr. COLE. I know Chairman Simpson has plans for August and 

later to actually make some trips into Indian Country so the committee has a better opportunity to see these things firsthand. So 


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hopefully we will have an opportunity sometime in the not too distant future to do that, and I know in several areas we will. 

Mr. MIKE. Well, I welcome you to come over to our area. 

Mr. COLE. I would very much like it. I have had the privilege of 

certainly going through Navajo Country but not in official capacity. 

Just enjoying the beauty of the land but honestly seeing the challenges you face geographically, too. They are enormous. 

Mr. MIKE. Yeah. 

Mr. HONYAOMA. And I just wanted to leave you with this, that 

our school, Hotevilla-Bacavi, has been meeting adequate yearly 

progress since its inception in 2000. We just made AYP again last 

year, so with that I would like to invite all of you to come out and 

look at our school and look at our reservation, how they look, so 

you have a better idea. 

But, again, we take this opportunity to thank you for that, and 

we look forward to working with you, and we will get you that information as soon as possible. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you very much, and I appreciate your testimony. Thank you. 

Mr. HONYAOMA. Thank you. 

Mr. COLE. I am going to take chairman’s prerogative or temporary chairman’s prerogative and invite the three Oklahomans up 

here that we have altogether. So Harold Dusty Bull and Joy 

Culbreath and Melanie Knight, if all three of you could come. 

If I may, Mr. Chairman, these are three people I know quite well 

because they have certainly been in my office, and they represent 

tribes in my state, and they have been here before, before this committee, so I want to thank all three of you for being here. I do not 

know any three people who work harder in Indian Country not 

only for their respective tribes but to defend the interests of all 

tribes and advance them here, and they have different things to 

talk about, so Madame Secretary, perhaps we just start with you 

and work across the line, and if you would, just for the benefit of 

the committee, introduce yourself and certainly let them know 

what your title is with the Cherokee Nation and what you do. 

Ms. KNIGHT. Certainly. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

CHEROKEE NATION 

WITNESS 

MELANIE KNIGHT 

Ms. KNIGHT. Thank you, Chairman Cole, Chairman Simpson, 

members of the committee. I am Melanie Knight. I am Secretary 

of State with the Cherokee Nation, and I am here to present on behalf of Cherokee Nation today. 

Cherokee Nation just for benefit of those of you that do not know 

us well, we were one of the first tribes to enter a treaty with the 

United States in 1785. Two hundred years later we entered into 

agreements under the Indian Self-Determination and Education 

Assistance Act, which was for us a new era of partnership with the 

United States. 


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No single enactment had a more progressive affect on tribes and 

specifically the Cherokee Nation than the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act. In three decades we have assumed control of many door-opening affairs in Indian health service programs, including healthcare, education, law enforcement, 

land and natural resource management, and protection. It serves 

a mechanism to shift back control to the Nation in the sovereign 

light of ours to control and administer these essential services, 

manage our own natural resources, control our economic future, 

and increase self-sufficiency and economy as a Nation. 

Presently the Cherokee Nation is thriving in our 14-county jurisdiction in Northeast Oklahoma. We have approximately 305,000 

citizens worldwide, and we are the largest employer now in Northeast Oklahoma, and we employ 8,500 people there. About 5,000 of 

those employees are employed in our various businesses, and those 

businesses range from hospitality, information technology, environmental services, and the aerospace sector. So we have grown quite 

a bit since the advent of self-determination. 

Strong, cohesive Cherokee communities are also existing and 

help us preserve, adapt, and prosper in today’s economic climate 

and help preserve our culture and language in those communities. 

So funding for both the Indian Health Service and Bureau of Indian Affairs is important to our progress and important to help 

maintain that progress as we move forward. So I will discuss just 

a few of those things today. 

Under our self-governance compact with the United States we 

construct and maintain water lines. We also operate a sophisticated network of eight outpatient clinics and also WW Hastings 

Hospital in Tahlequah, Oklahoma. We provide primary medical 

care, dental, optometry, radiology, mammography, behavioral 

health, and health promotion and disease prevention services. 

Hastings Hospital in Tahlequah is a 60-bed inpatient facility. We 

have 300,000 outpatient visits in that facility each year. We fill 

over 335,000 prescriptions in that facility annually, so it is quite 

a large workload for one facility. 

The IHS Joint Venture Program has become a very important 

program for us. It demonstrates a shared commitment between the 

Indian Health Service and tribes to help expand facilities in Indian 

Country where otherwise we may not be able to, and it has become 

especially effective in the Oklahoma area. The Cherokee Nation 

and other tribes in Oklahoma have joined together to support that 

this be funded on an annual basis more consistently, that we provide adequate funding for the Indian Health Service side, which is 

the program side of the house, the tribes commit to build the facility, and that we fully fund the contract support costs that go along 

with that program. It helps advance facility building out in Indian 

Country. 

In addition to the well-documented disparate funding between 

the IHS and other federally-funded health systems, funds among 

the IHS areas are funded equivocally as well. The Indian 

Healthcare Improvement Fund assists us in achieving parity 

among the Indian Health Service areas for funding. We join other 

tribes in recommending that the Indian Healthcare Improvement 

Fund be addressed, be addressed on a time-limited basis so that we 


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can raise parity for the Oklahoma area and others like it that are 

among the lowest funded in the Nation. 

Given the deficit in funding for Indian health in general we recommend, of course, that all funds appropriated to Indian Health 

Service be specifically exempted from the rescissions that may 

come about during the appropriations process. 

In regard to Bureau of Indian Affairs Services, the Nation, of 

course, operates a full range of those services now from Sequoia 

Schools, child wellness programs, child abuse services, adult and 

higher education, housing, law enforcement, and so forth, and these 

programs since the advent of self-determination have become important building blocks in us achieving self-sufficiency and being 

able to develop the economy of our jurisdiction. So they are important to continue to fund those programs. 

One of the most important budgetary issues that is facing Indian 

Country is a severe under-funding of contract support costs in both 

the Bureau of Indian Affairs and Indian Health Service. It negatively affects almost every tribe in the United States. Nearly every 

tribe has some form of a contract that is negatively affected. The 

issue is specifically significant because each dollar that we do not 

recover in contract support costs which is a legally-required and a 

cost to be covered affects direct programs one for one. 

So if the Nation sustains a shortfall, presently our shortfall is about $4.2 million a year, that results in $4.2 million in direct 

healthcare that must be diverted to cover these costs, because of 

course, they are fixed costs, must be paid. The Nation has no option but to pay them, and so direct care is affected by that. The 

IHS projects a total shortfall of 153 million. So when you look 

across the country, $153 million in direct care is affected by the 

failure to fund contract support costs. In addition, the BIA is under-funded by another $62 million, so 

that means funds going to law enforcement, courts, and other programs are affected as well. 

Now, I would like to give you just short example of how it affects 

us. 

Mr. COLE. We are running out of time. 

Ms. KNIGHT. Okay. In 2010, we made a little bit of progress. We were able to recover an additional $8 million based on the increase 

in contract support cost that was approved. With that $8 million 

it meant 124 jobs, health jobs that we were able to hire for our 

health system, pharmacists, healthcare providers, dental staff, and 

so forth, and that generated another $8 million in third-party revenue for our health system. So you can see how this has a direct 

relationship on patient care. 

So with that I will wrap up my comments, but thank you for 

your time, and I would be happy to answer any questions you have 

for me today. 

[The statement of Melanie Knight follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you, Madam Secretary. 

Ms. Culbreath, good to see you again. I will tell you early just 

to warn you I will be talking with Chief Pyle later today about 

water issues in Oklahoma, and I am going to tell him how you do. 

Ms. CULBREATH. Tell him I hacked it up. 

Mr. COLE. He will not be surprised. 

Ms. CULBREATH. He would appreciate that. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

CHOCTAW NATION OF OKLAHOMA 

WITNESS 

JOY CULBREATH 

Ms. CULBREATH. Thank you so much that I could be here today. 

On behalf of Chief Gregory Pyle of the Great Choctaw Nation of 

Oklahoma I bring greetings to the distinguished members of this 

committee. I am Joy Culbreath. I am the Executive Director of 

Education for the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma, and I appreciate 

this opportunity to appear before this committee. 

There are two priorities today. One of them is health. Mickey 

Peercy is our Executive Director of Health. He could not be here 

today, and so I hope you will read the testimony that is here for 

him. Contract health services and contract support costs are priorities for the Choctaw Nation, and we have the written testimony. 

The support for Jones Academy is what I would like to visit with 

you about today and keep that afresh and on your minds. I am 

here to express our appreciation to you as the committee and the 

members past and present who supported our efforts to reestablish 

the federal trust relationship for Jones Academy education through 

the Bureau of Indian Affairs, BIE, and, BIA. 

We worked together on this correction for decades. This happened back in the 1950s. Since the Federal Government unilaterally closed the academic programs at Jones Academy and 

Wheelock, both of those were in the Choctaw Nation, we really do 

not know why, created the Jones Academy Boarding Facility which 

required students to go to the local public school. 

The statutory language to rectify this wrong is included in the 

President’s fiscal year 2012 budget request. It was also in the fiscal 

year 2011, House committee-passed Interior appropriations bill 

written by this subcommittee. If enacted, it finally brings Jones 

Academy into compliance with the self-determination policy of the 

last 30 years. Strongly supported by this subcommittee. Most importantly of all it enhances future educational opportunities for our 

students. 

There are so many people here to thank. The list would be endless. Mr. Simpson, Mr. Moran, and of course, our own Representative, Tom Cole from Okalahoma. I also would like to mention Representative Dan Boren, who has, no, not a member of this committee, but he has provided extensive guidance and support, and 

then, of course, representatives of the Administration, particularly 

Assistant Secretary Indian Affairs Larry EchoHawk. He considered 

our situation with an open mind and an open heart, and he looked 


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at the results of the subcommittee-directed report on the history of 

Jones Academy and recommended the budget neutral language 

under consideration in this bill. 

This is a prime example of the ancient Choctaw philosophy that 

issues should be resolved openly and fairly by people of goodwill 

working together. With a new Jones Academy we built a brand new 

facility and opened it just a few years ago totally with tribal funds 

and the dedication of our Choctaw staff. We will work tirelessly to 

affirm your faith in us and especially in our students. With your 

support we look forward to continuing the unprecedented achievement record of our extraordinary students at Jones Academy. 

We were found to be two years in a row academically the top four 

elementary schools in the State of Oklahoma at Jones Academy. 

So on behalf of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma and our chief 

we are honored to provide our tribe’s views on these priorities and 

respectfully urge your consideration and support of these program 

funding requests in the 2012 budgets for the BIA and the IHS. 

[The statement of Joy Culbreath follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you for your testimony. 

Ms. CULBREATH. Yes. 

Mr. COLE. Harold. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

NATIONAL JOHNSON-O’MALLEY ASSOCIATION 

WITNESS 

HAROLD DUSTY BULL 

Mr. DUSTY BULL. Chairman Simpson, Ranking Member Moran, 

Congressman Cole, Congressman Calvert, I am the Director of the 

Blackfeet Johnson-O’Malley Program in Browning, Montana on the 

Blackfeet Indian Reservation. I am here representing the National 

Johnson-O’Malley Association, which is based out of Oklahoma. I 

am the Vice President, and I also have with me the President, Virginia Thomas, who is sitting back here. 

We educators in Indian Country are always happy to be in your 

company. If it were not for Congress supporting the JohnsonO’Malley Program and the appropriation process, we would not be 

here today. I want to acknowledge Congressman Cole from the 

State of Oklahoma for the many, many years he has supported this 

program. Congressman Cole knows the purpose and scope of JOM 

and how vital and how great the need is in the country and 

throughout this Nation. 

I am here to tell you a little bit about the JOM Program and give 

you an update on our 2012 request and recommendations. It has 

been a very interesting year for JOM at the current funding year 

program. Like many who testified and will be testifying before you, 

it is very hard to plan for the future when you do not know what 

you currently have. 

Johnson-O’Malley was enacted in 1934, to allow the Department 

of Interior to provide assistance to Indians in the areas of education and other needs but including relief and distress and transition from Indian settings to the general population. Seventy-six 

years later this program is still providing this vital, critical service 

to Indian children who most of them live in impoverished communities where their unemployment rate runs as high as 70 percent, 

especially during the school year when children need the assistance 

the most. 

JOM grads provide Indian tribes, school districts, tribal organizations, parent committees with supplemental funds to provide special educational needs for their children who attend public schools, 

non-sectarian schools from ages three years to grade 12. Without 

JOM dollars Indian children of all academic standings would not 

be able to afford such things as college counseling, athletic equipment, after-school tutoring, transition programs, musical instruments, scholastic testing fees, school supplies, and other basic 

needs such as cap and gowns for graduation. 

Other federal programs such as the Department of Education, I 

want to reiterate this, other federal programs such as the Department of Education does not allow for these types of activities within their funding. Our program on the Blackfeet Reservation funds 


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the basic needs to keep our children in school and to keep our parents involved in the education of their children. 

If you go back in history, you will understand that the education 

of our children was taken away from our parents. Kids were 

housed in boarding schools and so forth and so on. And so that responsibility was taken away. So we are still reintroducing that responsibility to our parents. 

Seven percent of the Indian children go to boarding schools. 

Ninety-three percent go to public schools, so it is a big job. 

Nationally we are requesting a new student count and to lift the 

freeze on the student count that was enacted in 1995. Along with 

our partners, the National Indian Education Association, we are requesting the JOM Program be restored to 24 million, the amount 

that was appropriated when the BIA and the BIE froze the account 

in 1995. They froze the account in 1995, but they did not freeze the 

money. I wish they would have froze the money and not the account. We would be in better shape today. 

But last but not least, we want the JOM position to be restored 

here in Washington, DC, so that Indian tribes and Congress will 

have a process to provide the proper information we both need to 

move this program forward and to continue the success this program has had for 76 years. 

I am very grateful to be here to testify before you. We have submitted written testimony. We are asking for your help in regard to 

our requests and recommendations, and if you have any questions, 

I will be more than happy to answer them at this time. 

[The statement of Harold Dusty Bull follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you very much for your testimony. I want to 

make a couple of comments, and then we will move because we are 

running behind schedule, and that is more my fault than anybody 

else’s, I can assure you. 

Madam Secretary, I just want to thank you for bringing up the 

concept of joint ventures. Again, Mr. Simpson is going to be visiting 

Oklahoma I think some time later this year and a number of other 

members, and that is one of the things we are going to make sure 

he has an opportunity to see. As you know Choctaws have a joint 

venture hospital as well. All our tribes have really done a good job 

when they have got money to match, and you will be impressed, 

Mr. Chairman, when you see how far they can stretch the 

healthcare dollars and bring additional things in here. 

So I think this is a real way forward to break some of these 

deadlocks, and honestly, potentially a godsend for the tribes that 

are not fortunate enough and have to rely more heavily on Indian 

healthcare funding. It is very impressive what some of these tribes 

are doing. Certainly what the Cherokees are doing is very impressive. 

Ms. Culbreath, I am glad you made the point which I always like 

to make, the Jones Academy deal did not cost the Federal Government a dime. This was simply a matter of going back and Congressman Boren worked very hard on this, going back and recognizing the relationship as it should have been and should have 

never been changed, and it was correcting a historical wrong at no 

expense to the Federal Government. And the Choctaws are really 

to be commended for that. 

And finally, I want to just agree from the chair with what you 

had to say, Harold, about the need to get a new student count. The 

idea that we stopped having students in 1995 and the number 

never changed is a rather convenient budget fiction out here, and 

I also particularly appreciate you making the point of how many 

Native children are not in BIE schools. The reality is the vast majority, nine out of ten, are in the public school system, and Johnson-O’Malley is one of the few programs that actually gives you 

some flexibility to help those kids where they are going to school 

as opposed to simply BIE schools who would certainly have their 

own needs and need additional funding as well. 

But this is one of those programs that is absolutely invaluable, 

and you get a lot of bang for the buck because you are building on 

top of a state appropriation, local appropriations that are already 

there. So I appreciate your advocacy and everything you and Virginia have done in this regard. It is has just been exceptional. 

Ms. CULBREATH. And most of those programs, there is not 

enough money for JOM. I know with the Choctaws with JohnsonO’Malley that the Nation is putting in like 50 percent of what goes 

to the Johnson-O’Malley students, because we had to either cut the 

program out or cut it in half, and so we use our federal funds, and 

then the Choctaw Nation puts in the other half. 

Just like you were talking about our early childhood programs, 

we are second to none. Matter of fact, we have the best programs 

in the State of Oklahoma. We just received the award that we met 

100 percent of all of the mandates of the Federal Government in 

our Head Start Programs which are 1,700. Well, that cannot be 


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met with federal funds. That is totally impossible. The tribe puts 

more money in Head Start than the Federal Government does in 

the Choctaw Nation. 

So those are things that need to be mentioned. I asked the lady 

that came and did our report this past year, audited us, do not 

compare us with other tribes. That is unfair because the tribes that 

cannot put the money into their programs should not be compared 

to a tribe that can have more money from their tribe than they do 

from the Federal Government. We met those 1,700 requirements 

100 percent. Only two tribes in the United States. The other tribe 

had 20-something students. We have 310. So that is why I am telling you that the tribes that can, we are stepping up to the plate. 

We are not asking the feds for everything, but we are also having 

to do that, to meet the mandates of the Federal Government, which 

is totally unfair to the other tribes. 

Mr. COLE. Now, this goes to a point that Mr. Shelly, President 

Shelly of the Navajo Nation made earlier, how important it is for 

tribes to have sources of revenue beyond the Federal Government, 

and that is hard to do, you know. That is very hard to do, but when 

tribes are able to do that, they always take the money and reinvest 

it back in their people. 

So the things this committee can do beyond just money are to try 

and assist them to be entrepreneurial because I can tell you they 

make money like a private business, and they invest it like a government right back in their people. 

So I am sorry, Ms. McCollum, I was kind of on my high horse 

there and so I can turn it over to you for your questions. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. I just echo what you said and the comments 

that you made about reinvesting in people and not comparing 

tribes to tribes, and I know that two leadership tribes in Minnesota 

are successful in gaming but they are also diversifying, the Mille 

Lacs Band and the Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux not only help 

their own people but they help, as they say, their brothers and sisters and cousins in surrounding areas, and I know especially in the 

Dakotas and throughout Minnesota, so the reach-out is great. 

I would just like to ask a question about Impact Aid. The other 

appropriations subcommittee I serve on is veterans and military 

construction, which deals with some of the Impact Aid. Questions 

about that also go to the heart of Johnson-O’Malley. Would you, for 

this committee, because I am trying to cobble some information together as you can tell through Head Start and that, that impact 

as well, for this committee? 

Mr. DUSTY BULL. Well, the Impact Aid Committee was actually 

designed for the military bases at one time because there were 

large military bases, and they were educating students on the military bases, and they had no tax base. So that is how that came 

about. Then all of a sudden they realized Indian tribes fell under 

the same category because they had no tax base. They had no way 

to generate revenue to educate the Indian children. 

Okay, and that is how Impact Aid came about, so it is not just 

for Indians on Indian reservations. It is for anybody in trust, where 

the government has land and trust and people live there, and they 

have children to educate. So that is how Impact Aid came about. 


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The Johnson-O’Malley Program is a simple mental education program that is designed to meet the specialized and unique educational needs of Indian children, and these funds go directly to Indian tribes, and it is kind of a way of us practicing our sovereignty 

in a way, of promoting the education of our children, where Impact 

Aid funds go directly to the school districts and to the state process. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Thank you, and Impact Aid both for our military families and for Native American children has not kept up 

with inflation, so that is a cost factor to school districts that sometimes have extra transportation costs, and at times if Head Start 

has not been provided, intervention costs. 

Thank you. 

Mr. DUSTY BULL. I just wanted to make one more point. Impact 

Aid is in lieu of taxes for those areas. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Yes. 

Mr. COLE. Absolutely true. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. I look 

forward to seeing you in August. We questioned whether August 

was the right time to go to Oklahoma. Nevertheless, we will be 

there in August, so I look forward to that. 

Harold, let me ask you a question. I do not mean to throw a 

bomb out to you or anything like that, but I have wondered this 

and some people have asked me this. Should the BIE be under the 

Department of Education instead of the Department of the Interior? 

Mr. DUSTY BULL. Well, because of the trust responsibility and 

the treaties that we have with the United States Government, in 

my opinion I think it should stay where it is. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Where it is? 

Mr. DUSTY BULL. Uh-huh. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Because those trust responsibilities would not diminish. It is how we deliver it. Some people have asked me, you 

know, why is the Department of the Interior trying to run Indian 

schools instead of the Department of Education, which is supposed 

to be the education experts. I do not know. I do not have an answer 

for them, do not know how it originated this way or what, and I 

am not suggesting that that ought to happen. I just would like to 

answer the questions sometimes. 

Mr. COLE. Mr. Chairman, if I may, just a point of reference, part 

of the problem, I do not know if it is a problem or not, but just 

there was no Department of Education when Indian schools were 

set up. 

Mr. SIMPSON. That is true. 

Mr. COLE. So they were located where Indian affairs were administered. 

Ms. CULBREATH. If you ask three people, you will get four different answers. 

Mr. SIMPSON. And they do not even have to be attorneys, do 

they? 

Ms. CULBREATH. No. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Mr. Chair, to that point the Department of Education does not build and maintain facilities, so that would be a 


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whole new addition onto them. I think what we need are better operation and memorandums of understanding that are clear as to 

who has responsibility for what so that people cannot walk away 

from their responsibilities. 

Mr. COLE. Well, the one advantage you would have is to move 

towards some sort of formula funding. I mean, I think the big problem always is the disparity between reservation schools and the 

surrounding schools. I have never seen a situation where a reservation school was remotely funded as well, and again, that is a federal responsibility. So I think there ought to be some sort of linkage that requires the Federal Government to match in the area 

what states and localities. 

Then you actually would be providing on a dollar-for-dollar basis 

the kind of education in a given state that the average kid is getting, and honestly, the kid on the reservation school or BIA school 

quite often is not getting, through no fault of their own. 

Mr. SIMPSON. You are right, and if the argument is we want to 

do it under the Department of the Interior because they get better 

service, that has not proven to be the case if you are looking at it 

in terms of the quality of schools and stuff. 

Ms. CULBREATH. We wrote a letter to Congress. I serve on the 

No Child Left Behind. We wrote a letter to Congress saying that 

you need a better working between BIE and BIA. You might want 

to look at that. We found that one of our biggest problems was they 

did not know whose job it was to do certain things. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Well, we are never going to help Indian tribes 

across this country address the unemployment, poverty, the things 

that they uniquely face on the reservations if we do not do something about the quality of education that they have. 

Mr. COLE. Madam Secretary. 

Ms. KNIGHT. I just wanted to mention that in the reauthorization 

of the education bill, there has been some discussion of considering 

tribal education agencies on the same basis as local education 

agencies for the purposes of formula funding from the Department 

of Education, and I think that would be a very positive step, to consider tribes that operate education programs in very much the 

same way as other local agencies. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you. Mr. Calvert. 

Mr. CALVERT. We should just match the District of Columbia. I 

thank the gentlelady. 

You mentioned the large boarding school. I have one of them in 

my congressional district; the Sherman Indian Institute has been 

there for well over 100 years now. I guess it is only one of, what, 

four or five left in the country of significant size. 

I want to get your feeling about—I, you know, as Mr. Simpson, 

I do not want to throw a bomb but they have changed somewhat 

over the years, and it has certainly been an integral part of our 

community. One of the frustrations for me has been that they do 

not allow flexibility in funding. I have talked to Chairman Cole 

about that where we could bring in outside possibilities of income 

to help offset their operation, maintenance accounts, and it seems 

that they are not falling down like a lot of the problems within Indian education throughout the country. 


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But what is your philosophy about these institutes or these 

boarding schools? 

Mr. DUSTY BULL. Well, first of all, boarding schools are still necessary across Indian Country because of the ruralness and the remoteness of Indian tribes, and you have heard, no roads and no access to the educational facilities, so they are still necessary, and 

that is probably why only 7 percent attend. Okay? But yet those 

7 percent are probably most likely students that perhaps would 

have a hard time getting to a regular public school if they were not 

in place. 

But another thing, too, is that a lot of times we have a lot of children who do not have a family base, you know, to support them 

through education. This is why this program is important. 

The only problem I have with this program is that it needs to 

go further than just education. It also needs to meet the social situations that these children face when they get to that school and to 

keep them there and complete the process of their education. That 

is what I would like to see them do. 

But as far as saying they are totally not needed no more, that 

would not be the case, not at this time and probably not in the 

near future. They are still necessary. 

Mr. CALVERT. And that is what I wanted to hear, Mr. Chairman, 

because it seems that the difficulties of these young men and 

women that are going through these large boarding schools are still 

necessary, the few that we have left, and I wish we did a better 

job of operating them, and I think that the flexibility that we 

talked about before we ought to look into. 

With that, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate it. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you very much for your testimony. 

Mr. Coochise, I believe you are next up. It is good to see you 

again. 

Mr. COOCHISE. Thank you. 

Mr. COLE. Welcome back. 

Mr. COOCHISE. Good to see you again. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

INDEPENDENT REVIEW TEAM ON TRIBAL COURTS 

WITNESS 

ELBRIDGE COOCHISE 

Mr. COOCHISE. With me is one of my team members, Mr. Ralph 

Gonzales, of the Independent Court Review Team. We have eight 

members of retired judges, attorneys, and court reporters and administrators who are in this project to do assessments of tribal 

court. 

First of all, I want to thank you. My name is Elbridge Coochise 

but easier to say Coochise. 

Mr. COLE. I apologize. 

Mr. COOCHISE. No, but one thing I do want to say, thank you 

very much to the committee for FY ’10, increase of $10 million 

added to the courts in Indian Country. 


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Just as a kind of summary, there are 300 courts in Indian Country right now; 184 are funded by the Bureau of Indian Affairs 

under Interior and BIA. The funding up to now with that last increase is 24.7 million. Prior to that it was only about 11.4 and then 

the committee added 2.4 in ’08, and 2.4 in ’09, then ’10, and fiscal 

year 2010. 

So but in our five years we have been on the road assessing 

courts that only still means 26 percent federal dollars to tribal 

courts through the system, where we found as low as 10,800 in one 

court and then as high as 2.3 million who was successful gaming 

in funding their court system. 

The other issue now is the new law that Congress passed in ’10 

the Tribal Law and Order Act, and that did two things. It requires 

for enhancements in the judges, the prosecutors, and attorneys 

have to, public defenders have to be attorneys who are also barred, 

and most tribes cannot afford that with the funding that they get. 

And it also increased the maximum penalties from one year and 

$5,000 to three years and a little higher on the money. 

So we are here to request an additional 10 million be added to 

the fiscal year 2010 base that you had appropriated for, you know, 

$10 million which was a real welcome sight. We were in Nevada 

last week, and we still have courts that do not have recording systems that cannot afford judges but maybe every three months or 

a prosecutor who is an attorney or public defenders, and so the cost 

is still there and the other was our request for tribal code development in fiscal policy manuals. 

Those are the two areas that we found in the five years that we 

are having to go back and assist, put together court procedures 

manuals to comply with their codes and fiscal policy manuals. 

Those are the two top items that we have had to go in and help 

them draft up in written form. 

So our request is still, again, a second 58.4 million that Congress 

passed in December of 1993. It has never been funded, and the 

only funds is the piece meals that has happened, and like I said, 

now we are 184, and we have another year on the contract to assess the 184. The assessments are only those courts that get money 

from BIA through the Department of the Interior. 

Then there are other issues that OMB added in there. That is 

the speedy trial issue, and we are finding that that is not really 

a problem because most of them are complying with that. 

And for the tribal courts to maintain their staff they need to get 

increases in salary. So that is our request here. We do not work 

for any particular tribe or court. We are just here to help the tribal 

courts in trying to get resources to operate their institutions on the 

reservations. 

[The statement of Elbridge Coochise follows:] 


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Mr. COOCHISE. Mr. Gonzales is here with me as a team member, 

but he also was a former bureaucrat and did a couple of surveys 

while he was in the BIA to try to get resources to tribal courts. 

Ralph, do you want—— 

Mr. GONZALES. As Judge Coochise points out, there is a major 

shortage of funding on Indian reservations, and it is three-tiered. 

One is 26 percent of the total funding needed comes from the Federal Government. The other 74 percent comes from tribal governments. But that is not the total need that tribal courts have. That 

is not 100 percent. They still need more in order to operate, so 

whatever you are giving is very helpful, but it falls short of what 

is totally necessary. 

Mr. COLE. Judge, if I could, I just have one question before I 

defer to my colleague. I agree with you. The need for funding is 

very great here. Now that we have had a little bit of operation of 

the Tribal Law and Order Bill and starting to see it, do you have 

any suggestions? None of these things are ever perfect. They are 

also part of a compromise. 

Are there things legislatively in addition to extra funding that 

we ought to be looking at in the tribal law and order area from 

your standpoint? 

Mr. COOCHISE. Well, I think other than money any act that is 

passed, how to implement it, and that it be done with assistance 

of tribes. The Law and Order Act put some new requirements that 

realistically today cannot be done. There is only 70 jails in Indian 

Country with 300 court systems, so even if they wanted to enhance 

sentencing, you just heard about the attention and other issues 

that there are, I think, four new detentions out there that are 

built, but there is no staffing, and they say they do not have the 

funds to operate those. 

And so it is more or less following up on what has already been 

done and then getting the money to the tribal governments to run 

their justice systems. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you. Ms. McCollum. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Thank you. We had a discussion about a month 

ago about mutual aid between law enforcement and that can really 

affect a chain of evidence and all the other information that come 

in front of the court. 

To Mr. Cole’s question, is this something that we should be looking at to help create more opportunities, more trusts, more work 

in the mutual aid between law enforcement agencies, both tribal 

and non-tribal? 

Mr. COOCHISE. Yeah, I think especially in fiscal year 2010 when 

there was appropriation, the new money, the $10 million which 

was really welcome. There was an additional 50 million went to 

law enforcement. They are constantly going—there is a disparity. 

If you increase law enforcement and do not increase court, you 

have a bottleneck situation. So that is what is happening with Indian Country. 

And the other issue with Department of Justice funding, they are 

giving grants for cops program and for drug courts. And I believe 

it was GAO just did a report which we looked at and said those 

federal agencies need to talk because we found in South Dakota 

when we did an assessment, one tribe received three grants from 


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DoJ, and none of them knew that they had the other. You know, 

each department did not know they gave money. So there is no coordination, and that needs to happen between the BIA and DoJ so 

that those funds, whatever they are, can work better to the benefit 

of the tribal justice system. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Do you have a record of your backlog? I actually 

have my Blackberry out to make a note to get a copy of the CRS 

report if there is one. I haven’t read it yet. And any GAO reports, 

and you alluded to one. 

Mr. COOCHISE. Yeah, the GAO, I submitted it. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Is that—— 

Mr. COOCHISE. I do not know if you got it. Our last year’s report 

and the two places I will have you check is page 2, page 5 and 21. 

Two is the 18 courts we reviewed, the assessment and their scores, 

how they are doing. Page 5 is the corrective action where we go 

back in. Those that scored below a certain level and help them, and 

it is on the right-hand column. It tells what we have done for them. 

And then the last two pages, 21 to 22, is a list of the 79 courts that 

we have done thus far, and we have done 10 of the 18 that we contracted for this year already. And so that is what the team has 

done to date is not on the back. And I submitted a copy to Grace 

so all of you guys could get it. Here is just on the last two pages, 

it looks like this. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Yeah, I am looking at them. So these are only 

the courts that you have had an opportunity to survey? 

Mr. COOCHISE. Yes, to do assessments. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. This probably is not fair because everybody is 

in a different spot where they are with the tribal courts and the 

tribal justice and the cooperation between state and federal, everyone is different. But would you say on average, for percentage of 

population, that there is a 15 percent backlog, 25 percent backlog? 

Mr. COOCHISE. I think the larger courts have a backlog problem 

of around 20 percent. The smaller ones, even though they can only 

hold court like—last week in Nevada, they only hold court like 

maybe every second or third month because they do not have the 

funds to pay a judge to come in. Then they have to do all of it in 

one day, and they have a higher backlog, and then there are others 

who do not have because they just put it through and whoever the 

prosecutor or public defender seems to work it out so that not as 

many cases get hung up on it. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Okay. Thank you. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you very much for your testimony. 

Mr. COOCHISE. Well, thank you again. Again, to Mr. Simpson, we 

really thank you for the additional $10 million you appropriated 

last year to tribal courts. It is helpful and we know that our court 

systems out there need the financial assistance. Thank you very 

much. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you. Next I am going to call on Representative 

Berg, if I can. I understand you are going to introduce the next 

panel for us, so please, all of you from the Dakotas that are testifying, come on up, and Rick is kind of the Master of Ceremonies 

here I guess. 

Welcome, and if I can, I am going to recognize you, Rick, first 

so you can make the appropriate introductions. 


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Mr. BERG. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Really, it is a great 

honor here today to introduce some fellow North Dakotans, and I 

would like to start with Dr. David Gipp. Since 1977, he served as 

the President of the United Tribes Technical College, and he has 

really become a leader. Maybe everyone does not want to hear me. 

He has become a leader really in North Dakota in the Native 

American community. One message that he has gotten to people in 

North Dakota that I want to share, and these are his quotes, ‘‘We 

must do for ourselves what no one else can do and take control of 

our own destinies by making our own decisions and taking action 

to improve our lives.’’ So Dr. Gipp, I admire your passion and all 

your efforts for building up what you have done with UTTC in 

North Dakota. Dr. Gipp is a former student, so I will introduce 

Russ and then also I want to recognize Dave Archambault from 

Standing Rock. Also thanks. You are admitted by many, and I appreciate your being out here, so thank you. 

Chairman Yelbert, I guess we have not had a chance to get to 

know each other in South Dakota, but there is a bond between 

North Dakota and South Dakota. So I will give Kristy Nome a hard 

time for not being here to introduce you guys. Thank you, Mr. 

Chairman. 

Mr. COLE. Rick, thank you, and I just want to tell all of you here, 

thank you for the great member you sent us from North Dakota. 

He is very knowledgeable on Indian Country and Indian affairs. 

That is not always the case with new members. He has been a terrific help and a great ally on a lot of these issues. So just again, 

thank you for sending us a member of such great quality and honestly, great interest in these issues. 

I suppose the easiest thing is to start at one end and work 

through on the testimony. So Chief, if we could begin with you and 

if you would pull the microphone down there toward you so we can 

all hear your testimony, we will go through and then we will open 

it up for questions. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

INTER-TRIBAL BISON COOPERATIVE 

WITNESS 

ERVIN CARLSON 

Mr. CARLSON. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and members of the 

Committee. Thank you for this opportunity you have given me to 

provide testimony today on behalf of the Inter Tribal Buffalo Council. I have also submitted the written testimony. 

My name is Ervin Carlson. I am a member of the Blackfeet Tribe 

in Montana. I am the President of the Inter Tribal Buffalo Council. 

Just a little history on ITBC, ITBC consists of 57 tribes across 19 

states, and recently we reorganized as a federally charted Indian 

organization under Section 17 of the Indian Reorganization Act. 

In 1991, ITBC was established by seven tribes with less than 

1,600 animals, collectively, for the purpose of restoring buffalo to 

the Indian lands. With federal assistance, tribes now have grown 

to 52 herds with over 17,000 buffalo on our lands. As you know, 


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buffalo historically sustained Indians on this continent, and ITBC 

believed that reestablishing this cultural and spiritual connection 

would benefit both buffalo and Indian tribes. 

I am here today to request $3 million to allow ITBC to continue 

with buffalo restoration and herd maintenance, pursue economic 

development through marketing initiatives and implement health 

initiatives that will restore buffalo to the diets of Indian people. 

ITBC is one of the few federally funded programs that actually passes the money directly out to tribes. Our unmet needs are $10 

million-plus, and these needs that we have is for our infrastructure, fencing, water development, staff for our tribes. Presently ITBC is in the 2012 budget for $1.4 million. A $3 million increase will restore ITBC back to the 2006 levels that we 

were once at, and that was not where we need to be but it sure 

helped the tribes a lot more at that level, and we have recently 

gone down. 

Restoration and herd maintenance, today ITBC members have 52 

herds that are of various sizes and various stages of sustainability. 

Federal funding is very critical to continue buffalo restoration to 

Indian lands and to successfully maintain herds. 

Indian lands are native to buffalo and tribes, and tribes have 

been successful at restoration. However, ITBC provides critically 

needed technical assistance such as range management, management plans, buffalo health assessments and as I mentioned before, 

all the infrastructure needs. 

Buffalo have developed a new Indian Country industry. ITBC 

grants to tribes for buffalo management, creates jobs on reservations with extreme unemployment. Additionally, tribes are utilizing 

buffalo for economic opportunities. 

With additional funding ITBC could assist tribes in establishing 

markets, develop marketing techniques and strategies. ITBC had 

to end its previous efforts through health initiatives due to funding 

cuts. Additional funding will allow ITBC to undertake efforts to restore buffalo into the diets of the Indian populations. ITBC would 

provide education to reservation populations on the health benefits 

of buffalo and also promote local slaughter and processing opportunities. 

Presently, few opportunities for local slaughter exist in Indian 

Country. With funding ITBC hopes it might obtain a mobile 

slaughter facility to allow field slaughter and the use of buffalo 

products by local communities. 

The buffalo were real important I guess to our diet. We were 

doing a health initiative with the additional funding that we had 

I guess in 2006 and reeducating our people back to the health benefits of eating buffalo. At one time, that is all we had for our diets, 

and we were free from diabetes. As you know, diabetes is rampant 

in Indian Country nowadays, heart disease, and we have gone 

away from eating those healthy foods. We were I guess brought 

away from that, and now we are teaching our people to come back 

to that, along with the restoration of buffalo to the Indian Country. 

Economic opportunities, you know, buffalo is becoming very, very 

popular nowadays. So there are some economic opportunities also 

for tribes. And I will say that, you know, our tribes are at different 

stages right now. Some are looking toward the herds big enough 


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for economic development, some are just sustaining with the land 

base they have. But they can help our Indian people in a whole 

new way as they did in the past. In the past, they were everything 

for Indian people. They were our clothing, our lodging, our tools, 

and today they help us in a different way. 

So ITBC is here to help tribes in whatever way they can prosper 

from the buffalo herds that are within the Indian nations. 

So with that, I thank you for your careful and diligent consideration of, you know, additional funding for ITBC and restore back 

to where we were once before, and it would be I guess a kind of 

waste for the prior funding if we couldn’t continue and enhance the 

programs that we have built with the tribes, you know, until now. 

[The statement of Ervin Carlson follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you, Mr. President. I am sorry about the 

misidentification a moment ago. If you guys can, there is a clock 

there to sort of keep an eye on. It is tough when you are as far 

away as you are. So we will try and make that a little bit more 

visible for everybody. 

Mr. CARLSON. Well, we just kind of operate on Indian time anyway. 

Mr. COLE. You were pretty close on. You were not very far off. 

Mr. CARLSON. Last time I was here testifying I walked up and 

I put my hat over the—— 

Mr. COLE. Simpson usually makes cracks about Indian time, and 

I do not allow any of those when I am in the chair. 

Mr. CARLSON. Well, I noticed anyway because we were way behind. It is kind of back to this time where it should have been 

when we were first going to have the hearing, so now they said 

10:30 so I guess we are all—— 

Mr. COLE. We are going to blame it on Representative Berg. He 

was late showing up. 

Mr. CARLSON. So if you have any questions, you know, I am 

happy to answer those. 

Mr. COLE. We will. We are going to go through the testimony 

first so we make sure everybody has an opportunity to say what 

they want to, and then we will go to questions, okay? 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

OGLALA SIOUX TRIBE 

WITNESS 

JOHN YELLOW BIRD STEELE 

Mr. STEELE. My name is John Yellow Bird Steele. I am the President of the Oglala Sioux Tribe in South Dakota. I came, Congressman, to tell you a little bit about the relationship between the 

United States Government and our Indian nations. I know, Mr. 

Cole, you are a member of the Chickasaw Nation. Ms. McCollum, 

you are very well-versed on our Indian issues. Mr. Simpson, I know 

you are pretty close to us there, but I would like to address some 

of the stuff that I heard a little before. The veterans. I was in Vietnam for 2 years, Vietnam veteran. And we do have a veteran clinic 

on Pine Ridge and a veteran homeless shelter that is full. We need 

more veteran homeless shelter space. 

But I would say that the veterans coming from Iraq and Afghanistan are quite similar to the Vietnam veterans. The drugs that are 

there, not knowing who the enemy is, situations happen there. And 

it is very heavy on the mental part of it and coping afterwards. So 

those Iraqi and Afghanistan veterans are really going to need some 

help. 

I am here today to let you know that the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, we are quite unique. We are rural. IHS says they are the 

last resort, but they are our only resort. Very difficult. We have, 

through the past decades, been the poorest per capita income, the 

second poorest. In 2010, we made it up to the third poorest per capita income. 


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And I look at our treaties with the United States Government, 

this unique relationship, this political relationship, not a special interest, not a minority like Mr. Stossel says that we are freeloaders, 

no way. I know that you people sitting here know the difference. 

But I really am disturbed at being responsible for a people who just 

cannot make it to the healthcare facilities, and once they get there, 

it is very poor healthcare. And these were promised in our treaties, 

especially the 1868 treaty. It made all the promises, 1868 treaty 

that said until the grass stops growing and the river stops flowing 

that the Black Hills, which are sacred to us, would be ours, and 

then the United States Government took them. 

In 1980, the United States Supreme Court says the most—case 

in the history of the United States is the illegal taking of the Black 

Hills. And I have seen where trillions of dollars worth of uranium, 

gold and timber have been taken out of those stolen lands. I would 

like to debate up to today what has happened with the Black Hills. 

I would like some sort of equity there. The people I represent have 

problems putting food on the table and doing business on reservation which is quite rural. The roads, the responsibilities the Federal Government have in education, in healthcare, in economic development, all of these are in our treaty which comes from the Constitution of the United States. They were put into law by the ratification of the Senate, two-thirds ratification. And I do not think 

that the United States has to date been honoring their word to 

those treaties because of the conditions that people in these United 

States have to live under. You should see my daughter’s living conditions. They are deplorable. One little room that they have made 

to live in in a 2-inch wall trailer house have to hold water in to 

cook and drink, use an outhouse, raise four kids that way. 

The United States, I say, I termed a phrase, inherent federal neglect. When they built up the infrastructure across the United 

States, they forgot about this large land base called Pine Ridge. 

They said that was Indian Health Service and BIA responsibility. 

I do not have the infrastructure there for any development to happen. It is very, very difficult. Our IRA government has been trying 

to work on this infrastructure for the past several, several, several 

decades. I am optimistic that we are going to try to catch up a little 

bit with the rest of America when we get this infrastructure in 

place, and I am optimistic that our children will have a better life 

than we have because we are working on all of the basics that the 

United States Government forgot to do or did not want to do, I do 

not know which. But we do need some help. And I just wanted to 

come say, and I know I do not have to say it to yourselves, that 

we have this unique relationship through the treaty that word 

must be honored. We go do our duty for the United States, for our 

country. We fight for freedom. But when we look at our people, we 

say the United States Government says it is deplorable how the Indians were treated in the past. They say it is not the past, it is 

today that they are being treated that way. Why? 

Thank you for holding this hearing. I would like to have one 

more point is that National Congress of American Indians, National Indian Health Board, who you call to represent us and speak 

for us, do not know our issues back home with the large land base, 

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cumstances. They do not know our issues to speak to them. So we 

would like a place at the table, one of us from North Dakota, South 

Dakota, Montana, Idaho, to speak to our issues. They do not have 

treaties, they do not have our issues knowledgeable to speak to 

them. 

We did form an organization called COLT. It is very, very new. 

It is the Coalition of Large Tribes we call ourselves. We did not say 

land-based, but we are going to try to get similar tribes together 

that have the same issues to address here to let yourselves know 

what they are. 

[The statement of John Yellow Bird Steele follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you for your testimony. I am sure we will be 

back to visit. 

Mr. STEELE. Thank you for your time. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

STANDING ROCK SIOUX TRIBE 

WITNESS 

DAVE ARCHAMBAULT II 

Mr. ARCHAMBAULT. Thank you, President Steele. I just want to 

thank the Committee for giving me the opportunity to testify in 

this federal process. It is needed, and I hope that this continues so 

that you can hear the words such as President Steele’s. 

What I see today is kind of a movement in Indian Country towards this decolonization, but the only way that we can achieve 

this is if we can continue to get the adequate funding. Currently 

we are inadequately funded in several areas. 

I will just start by introducing myself. I kind of got ahead of myself. My names is Dave Archambault. I am a member of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe, and I am honored to provide testimony for 

the Standing Rock people. 

Our tribe is approximately 2.3 million acres. That is about the 

size of Connecticut. We straddle both North and South Dakota, one 

of the unique tribes that has two states that we deal with. Our 

lands are along the Missouri River, and some of our best lands 

were taken from us in the past, just recently, in the 1944 Flood 

Control Act, relocated us from our precious, our best grounds along 

the river to hilltops. And it is hard to describe the impact that it 

had on us. There is a lot of social issues as a result. There is high 

unemployment rates, there is high poverty, just several problems 

relating to this man-made event. 

There is a lot of benefits from this though also, and the people 

who benefit from this are the U.S. citizens in the area, how they 

benefited from it, from the low cost power supply that they get 

from Western Area Power Association. But you have to remember, 

in order to gain that benefit, there was a cost paid, a sacrifice 

made, and it is still paid today. 

We do have a lot of representation in our military throughout the 

country. There is a high population in there, so I just want to remind you of these occurrences. We are a treaty tribe. We do have 

treaties, and we did uphold our end of the treaties for almost 200 

years now since we entered into these contracts. Our end has been 

upheld with great sacrifices, and the reason why I am here is to 

ask that you take that into consideration and remember that as 

you go through this 2012 budgeting process. 

I just want to say that we at Standing Rock support the education needs that need to be met, public safety needs. And you 

have been hearing testimony about that, throughout Indian Country, the healthcare needs and the infrastructure needs that are 

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dian Country. And it is a movement toward the decolonization that 

we have been experiencing for a time now. 

We support the United Tribes Technical College. It is an exceptional institution that provides education for our young adults once 

they finish high school. We support Johnson-O’Malley. We have 

public funded schools, and we have tribal grant schools. We have 

both within our boundaries, and we need that continued funding 

for those students who attend the public schools through JohnsonO’Malley. 

For public safety and law enforcement, we have experienced an 

increase with the help—of police officers, but we are feared that we 

do not want to take resources from other tribes. And we are feared 

that we are going to lose that public safety, the police officers, with 

budget cuts. There is a need throughout Indian Country of 1,800 

police officers, and we need to assure that that is attained. 

We support everything for IHS, our healthcare services. 

Throughout Indian Country we experience high diabetes, heart disease, as the gentleman has said earlier. But it is very personal for 

each and every one of us. It is in our households, our relatives, our 

families all see it. And we do provide healthcare, but at Standing 

Rock we only provide the minimal services, and we depend a lot 

on contract services. So I ask that you make sure that the contract 

dollars and the request that the Administration made of $408 million be preserved. 

Infrastructure, roads, we do not have the infrastructure in order 

for the economies to flourish. So we ask that you keep the infrastructure in place. 

And I just want to thank you for your time in allowing me to testify. 

[The statement of Dave Archambault II follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you very much. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

UNITED TRIBES TECHNICAL COLLEGE 

WITNESSES 

DAVID M. GIPP 

RUSSELL M. SWAGGER 

Mr. GIPP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the Subcommittee. We appreciate the opportunity to be here. My name is 

Dave Gipp, President at the United Tribes Technical College in 

Bismarck, North Dakota, as Congressman Berg pointed out. I have 

been coming here for a number of years, and we appreciate the 

past and hopefully the continued support of the Subcommittee, the 

Committee and the Congress. 

I am a Hunkpapha Lakota from the area where my colleague 

and councilman from Standing Rock just presented. I am also 

President of United Tribes, and with me is Dr. Russell Swagger 

who is a graduate from United Tribes, went on and got his not only 

2-year there but a 4-year master’s and has completed his doctorate 

degree last year, and he is the Vice-President of our Institution for 

Campus and Student Services where we serve about 1,000 students 

and about 400 to 500 children on our campus as well, which I will 

get into later on. I would like him to perhaps also add about a 

minute within my time just to give you an idea of some of those 

things that we do. 

I would just point out that many of the things that Councilman 

Archambault pointed out, the pillars of a good, sound community, 

that of education and training, economy, business, public safety, 

health and infrastructure needs are all the kinds of things that we 

are trying to do at United Tribes and have been trying to do and 

have been contributing back to Indian Country for the past 42 

years. 

We occupy an old military fort, at one time Fort Abraham Lincoln. And so we took that over. It is close to over 110 years old. 

And it is always very historic, of course, and we since, of course, 

have added other facilities to it. But we serve the American Indian 

family, children and adults there, about 1,000 adults, and we have 

three early childhood centers and we have a K–8 elementary school 

that we do within our whole effort. 

Our effort then is to provide training and education to the whole 

family as well as the individual Indian adult who comes there, and 

we serve up to 87 different tribes from across the Nation. Those are 

the kinds of things that we do. 

We just completed 10 years of accreditation by the Higher Learning Commission, and we just had a very successful visit with them, 

informally, I cannot announce it publically as they say, but we look 

forward to some of the very sound recommendations that they are 

going to give us for the next 10 years. 

We anticipate that we will move also and keep the existing 25 

or so 2-year and 1-year certificate and degree programs but also 

will add several 4-year programs. And I mention things like sound 


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economy. Business administration is one of those degrees we are 

doing right now. The severe need for teachers in our communities 

throughout Indian Country. Elementary education is one of those 

4-year degrees. We already do a 2-year early childhood degree program, and we are in the area of public safety, criminal justice. Our 

request then speaks to three different things, about $6.4 million for 

United Tribes and Navajo Technical College which is located on the 

Navajo Nation. Those two schools share and appropriation that 

comes through the Department of Interior. 

Second, one-time forward funding for those two institutions, which would be about $5 million if we were able to do that to get 

us in a more advantageous position of being able to have continuity 

in our operations. 

Third, I mentioned the issue of public safety, and that is an issue 

that we have garnered from our various tribes, the 16 tribes in a 

three or actually a four- or five-state area supporting us for doing 

an American Indian Northern Plains academy in the area of law 

enforcement because of the severe shortages that Councilman 

Archambault pointed out, nearly 1,800 slots that are unfilled in 

law enforcement throughout the Bureau of Indian Affairs and 

throughout Indian Country. We think we can provide more training 

and education that is so crucial for good, sound public safety in our 

tribal communities. You cannot have a good, sound community unless you have good assurances of that safety in community. You are 

not going to attract good business if you do not have public safety. 

The same with education and on down the line. 

Those are the three fundamental things that I would speak to, 

Mr. Chairman. We have a very important role in our community, 

and we work very closely with our tribes. Our board is comprised 

of tribal chairs and others who sit on our board and directly control 

and direct what we do as far as our curriculum goes. 

I am going to ask Dr. Swagger to at least summarize some of the 

things that I think are so crucial to what we do. 

[The statement of David Gipp follows:] 


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Mr. SWAGGER. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I think just briefly, if 

it were not for a place called United Tribes, I would not be in the 

situation that I am in right now. And I can speak for many students who come to United Tribes, too. These tribal leaders have 

sacrificed a lot over the years to make sure that students like myself had a place, and we continue to offer that same quality service 

to students. These students come from conditions where there are 

many hardships, and they do not even think about college as an 

opportunity for their future, and a place like United Tribes offers 

that opportunity to them. So thank you. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you very much. Mr. Gipp, I just have a quick 

question for you, and I am sure others will have many questions. 

But out of curiosity, your students, as they graduate, how many remain working in Indian Country, how many go do other things? 

Nothing inappropriate about going someplace else, but I am just 

curious. We have such a challenge in terms of human capital all 

across Indian Country, so how many folks actually are able to stay 

and sort of bring their skills back? 

Mr. GIPP. I would say about 70 percent have a desire to go back, 

and a good number of them do go back into their tribal communities. Our placement rate is about 87 to 90 percent placement, by 

the way. One of the realities, though, is that they need a place to 

go back to where there are jobs and where there is going to be a 

place where they can, you know, support themselves and their families. And that is why it is so important I think with some of the 

earlier remarks by our previous testifiers. 

Mr. COLE. You sort of anticipated my follow-up which is in addition to those who go back, how many would like to but run into 

exactly the problem you just laid out? There just simply are not 

sufficient opportunities for them to return to? 

Mr. GIPP. I think tribal government needs better support just in 

the arena of things like economic and business development, and 

our role is to provide those kinds of people with the training in 

business or small business management which we do on our campus. Sitting Bull College where Mr. Archambault is from is doing 

much of that kind of thing. Entrepreneurship and playing up those 

kinds of things are so crucial if we are going to have successful 

kinds of developing economies. 

I look at our tribes in many respects, domestic Third World countries that need a lot of foreign aid, if you want to call it that. 

Mr. COLE. I do not think it is foreign aid. Ms. McCollum. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Thank you, and thank you all, gentlemen, for 

sincere, heartfelt testimony which really speaks to the responsibility that we have to work together on to make sure that all of 

our peoples live up to their commitments and more so on the Federal Government’s side. Your commitment is, I have to say, never 

give up, and so I really appreciate that. 

I wanted to just make one observation and then ask a question. 

I have been to Rosebud but I have not been to Pine Ridge. I have 

been looking to revisit. It has been a while, so you have kind of 

given me a loop around to leave the Twin Cities and visit many of 

the places where my mother was from in both the Dakotas. I will 

be visiting. But I do not know if I will get all the way over to Montana, so I have got a question for you. Although I have been to 


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Glendive, Sidney and Fairview a lot and a lot of fishing in Fort 

Peck. But a couple of questions, so I understand better what you 

are working on with the Bison Cooperative. I grew up in a meat 

packing town, okay, so people used to bring cattle into South St. 

Paul to slaughter. And I am going to do a lot of questions together. 

So you have mobile facilities. Has there been any discussion within 

the cooperative to transport? Maybe you do not have access to rail. 

Bison are a lot bigger than cattle. I would not want to be trying 

to get too many of them on a truck. So maybe that is why it is a 

mobile facility, and I just want to understand that better. And then 

tying in what they do at the Technical College, I know there are 

issues in the deer and the moose population in Wisconsin and Minnesota, and I do not know if it is spread over where you are, maybe 

it is an issue having chronic wasting disease and the moose are 

dying from some brain infection. We have no idea. So it leads me 

to the question of veterinary science, veterinary technicians, training for them, job opportunities. 

Then the last thing I will toss at you as with these mobile 

slaughter vehicles, what is your relationship with FDA inspectors 

and all that? And so I will be seeing you gentlemen later at the 

schools and at your tribal areas, and I will come visit the veterans. 

Mr. CARLSON. Yeah, one of the things as you know as you say 

was real hard to, you know, bring the animals to a slaughter facility, so we do not have presently a mobile slaughter facility. In the 

past there was one, it could not pass the federal requirements. So 

we had to make it stationary. 

So it is a lot easier if we can get a mobile facility that will go 

out to every tribe and have them do their field kills. 

I guess one of the other areas and I would refer to—to help me 

answer some questions on, we have had problems with the USDA 

inspection fee. I guess that is one of the issues that we are continuing—you know, tribes are you know, strapped for dollars anyway, and the inspection fee is one of the areas that we kind of have 

a problem with. We are trying to not only have the mobile slaughter facility but a regional permanent facility is kind of one of our 

long-term goals as to all of our tribes. And I have Majel Russell 

with me who is our legal person and helps in every aspect of ITBC, 

and I would like to have her talk to you about the inspection. 

Ms. RUSSELL. Just real quickly—— 

Mr. COLE. And your name also for the record. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. And can you tie in how you use the funding to 

accomplish some of these challenges that you are describing right 

now? 

Ms. RUSSELL. I am Majel Russell, and I am legal counsel for the 

Inter-Tribal Buffalo Council. The reason the mobile slaughter facility is important is that it will allow tribes to do field kills of the 

animals and maintain the cultural significance of killing the animals out in the field. And we are hoping that if we can get a mobile 

slaughter facility that USDA will approve, then it will allow us to 

harvest animals in the field in the cultural manner that the tribes 

desire and yet still have the meat approved so that we can provide 

it to schools and provide it to other facilities with the USDA approval. 


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Presently we have to transport animals to USDA facilities, and 

generally they want to finish those animals in the feed lot. When 

you finish a buffalo in a feed lot, then that is the kind of buffalo 

you are going to eat downtown at one of these restaurants where 

it is all fatted up. And you have basically diminished the health 

benefit of the buffalo because it has been grain fed, corn fed, and 

it no longer maintains the value of a healthy food. 

So a mobile slaughter facility is very important to maintain the 

integrity of the animal that we are providing, which is a healthy 

grass-fed animal and also maintains the cultural slaughter for the 

tribes. 

Let’s see, you had a question about—— 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. That vet training because that will also tie in. 

Ms. RUSSELL. Yes. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. So how would having the funding help with 

these issues? 

Ms. RUSSELL. Having the funding would critically help us grow 

the buffalo industry for Indian Country. I mean, right now we are 

very limited, and it seems like we cannot get over a threshold 

where we can create more jobs. We have some jobs. We actually 

have been as successful with U.S. Department of Labor to have a 

new position of a buffalo manager. So we now have created that 

position. We actually have created an official position, but we need 

to work with the tribal colleges on training. We just have so limited 

funding that we provide only about $70,000 to tribes that are part 

of our program just for herd development, infrastructure, water, so 

forth. We cannot get over that threshold. So we think with additional funding we can strategize and meet with tribal colleges to 

try to promote jobs and training programs and basically grow the 

industry. 

Mr. STEELE. We wanted to get buffalo from Yellowstone Park 

who wants to get rid of them. They are not a brucellosis-free herd. 

And so they have to be quarantined for 30 days. And we are brucellosis free so that is an expense that it is very difficult for us to access those. 

Mr. COLE. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Just a couple things. President Steele, thank you 

for your testimony. Very important that we hear that. And Councilman, you mentioned the issues that you face on the reservation, 

transportation being one of them. Just out of curiosity, do you 

share in the state gasoline tax for transportation needs on your 

reservation? And the reason I ask that, when I was in the state 

legislature, I was always trying to get the Department of Transportation to share those gasoline tax revenue with the tribes and let 

them do in terms of employment and stuff the maintenance on the 

roads and so forth. 

Mr. ARCHAMBAULT. Yes, we do, but it is still inadequate. We do 

have a compact with the state so that we can share in those, but 

rather than having a compact, we would like to learn how and that 

is why we depend a lot on our educational institutions. But we 

would like to learn how to take the taxing duties of the state and 

do it ourselves so that we do not have to share and we do not have 

to have a compact and there would be more realization of benefits 

to the tribes rather than having a compact. Or if that cannot be 


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achieved, then we would like to not have a tax on a fuel within our 

boundaries, but that is difficult to do also. 

So there are a lot of things that are brewing that we would like 

to pursue to probably help us with a lot of these transportation requirements and needs, maintenance of roads. We struggle all the 

time, and we have to depend on the Bureau through formula funding, and as a large land-based tribe, it is just not enough. And the 

revenue generated from the sharing of taxes by the state is not 

enough, and we have a shortfall every year. When a tribe does 

have to somehow come up with money to subsidize the maintenance of our roads, that is not always—we have to sacrifice other 

areas in order to just open up roads. And we live in North Dakota 

where we just had a snowstorm Saturday. 

Mr. SIMPSON. We had one in Idaho Friday. Fortunately it was 

gone in about two days. You get it just after we do. 

Were you going to say something? 

Mr. STEELE. Yeah, we went to court with the State of South Dakota. We collect all the—tax on Pine Ridge, but it needs to go into 

people’s driveways they call them. They can be anywhere from 100 

feet to 3 miles. They have never seen a blade on them themselves. 

An Indian car is minus a muffler because the road has never had 

a blade on it. They knock out transmissions. It is very difficult. So 

that all goes in to trying to do these driveways to people’s homes. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Well, thank you all. We plan on getting out to 

North and South Dakota for a visit later this year. 

Mr. STEELE. I do not like when Congress paints the whole United 

States with this Indian brush. We are unique in different ways. In 

South Dakota, we went through the state courts up to the State 

Supreme Court. The State Police cannot come onto the reservations 

in South Dakota, contrary to Hicks v. Nevada out of the Supreme 

Court. They tried to bring it to the Supreme Court, but the Supreme Court did not hear it, would not take it, and so in South Dakota, the state law enforcement tells us before they come onto our 

territories, and if they do not and they come try to do business, we 

will arrest them. That is illegal for them to do that. 

But it is difficult having the full responsibility for all law enforcement, all courts, all prosecutions within our area and then not have 

the funding to do it. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. 

Mr. GIPP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and we certainly would appreciate any of you coming to visit us out there. 

Mr. COLE. Actually, we look very much forward to doing that. I 

want to thank again and I want to associate myself very much with 

Chairman Simpson’s remarks. I appreciate some of the pointed 

comments. They need to be made and they need to be heard, and 

they are certainly very, very appropriate. So thank you. My dad 

was a pretty old tough master sergeant. He used to have a wonderful saying that your friends are the people that tell you what you 

need to know, not what you want to hear. So you all said some 

things that needed to be said and certainly the Congress needs to 

hear, and we appreciate that very much. 

We reconvene at 1:00, and I am going to actually try to move it 

along on time, but we will see. Thank you. 

[Recess.] 


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Mr. COLE. In the interest of time so we can get back on schedule, 

and we apologize, the votes came very inopportunely. We are going 

to call folks up kind of at a panel at a time. So if we could have 

McCoy Oatman, Chairman of Nez Perce, Tracy ‘‘Ching’’ King, the 

President of Fort Belknap Indian Community and Roxann Smith, 

the Vice Chair of the—— 

Mr. OATMAN. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. COLE. How are you? 

Mr. OATMAN. Good to see you. 

Mr. COLE. Good to see you. If we can, we will just move from our 

left to the right, so if you would identify yourself and then go ahead 

and we will take all the testimony, and then we will open it up for 

questions. 

Mr. OATMAN. Is the microphone on? 

Mr. COLE. If you will press the button down there. If it has got 

that red light, it is on. 

Mr. OATMAN. Okay. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

NEZ PERCE TRIBAL EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE 

WITNESS 

McCOY OATMAN 

Mr. OATMAN. Good afternoon. My name is McCoy Oatman. I am 

the Chairman of the Nez Perce Tribal Executive Committee. I 

would like to first off start by thanking the Committee for hearing 

our testimony here today. 

Today on behalf of the Nez Perce Tribal Executive Committee, I 

am here to address the Committee as it evaluates and prioritizes 

the spending needs of the United States regarding IHS, BIA, EPA, 

the Forest Service, the Fish and Wildlife Service, and I know Mike 

Simpson is not here but I would like to give a special thanks to 

him. He is from our State of Idaho for holding these important 

hearings. Simpson has seen in person the variety and the quality 

of work that the tribe does. 

Mr. MORAN. We will pass that on to Mike. 

Mr. COLE. We will indeed. 

Mr. OATMAN. I appreciate it. So you guys have our written testimony from the tribe, and so due to time I will summarize some of 

the major points that we have and issues that we have. 

First off, the tribe recommends increased funding for Indian 

Health Service including monies for contract health services and 

contract support costs. The tribe supports the request for at least 

4.6 billion which would be an increase of 14 percent over the fiscal 

year 2010 funding for IHS and contract health services, and contract support costs should be funded at $615 million. The tribe’s 

shortfall last year for the contract support costs was 152,546, and 

the shortfall for all Idaho tribes is $1.27 million. 

At this time, our tribal clinic is facing a potential $1 million to $1.5 million shortfall for this year’s budget. That is with the 5 percent budget cut that the tribe has done itself on its facility. The 

clinic has been in priority one status for the last three months 


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which, as you know, means life and limb are the only claims approved for treatment. With the low level of current funding provided by IHS, the tribe would have to double the amount normally 

received to its third-party billing to fill that gap, and only 35 percent of the 4,500 patients that we service have insurance. 

One thing that I would like to share, too, is that I spoke with 

our executive director for our clinics, and one of the statements 

that she made to me is that our people are chronically ill. So that 

is something that I would like to pass along to you guys. 

The tribe also requests approval for 650,000 in funding requested 

in fiscal year 2011 budget, BIA budget for survey work that was 

supposed to be done under the Snake River Basin Adjudication 

which the tribe, as you know, settled. This money would go to the 

BIA and BLM to do the survey work which is part of the agreement under the transfer of land from the Bureau of Land Management. 

The tribe also recommends funding contract support costs for BIA at $228 million for programs that the tribe administers such 

as law enforcement, to supplement its law enforcement program by 

600,000 for the last fiscal years to compensate for the budget shortfall from BIA. The tribe recommends proper funding for BIA Endangered Species Fund, Rights Protection Fund and Tribal Management and Development Program Fund. Particularly, the Rights 

Protection Fund is very critical for the tribe because it helps our 

harvest management and also funds our conservation enforcement. 

It also helps the tribe work on protection—resources for on and off 

reservation hunting and fishing and fish production. The tribe is a 

natural resource tribe and has made a commitment to work to preserve, enhance those resources where funding is needed. 

We also support the funding for the BIA, wildlife parks, travel 

priority allocations which will be covered later on in more detail by 

the Columbia River Inter-Tribal Fish Commission which the tribe 

is part of. We would also like to emphasize the tremendous amount 

of positive work that is done through that program. Also we request support for the Fish and Wildlife Service, travel wildlife 

grants which has been proposed to be eliminated under some funding scenarios. The grants are the only source of funding for many 

tribal wildlife programs and is only one of funding sources for the 

research that the tribe does on the big horn sheep. 

We also request support for the work of the Forest Service, the 

Fish and Wildlife Service and the National Parks Service on the 

buffalo hunt and the Gallatin National Forest near Yellowstone 

National Park. 

Finally, we request continued support and funding for work with 

the tribe with EPA through its Federal Air Rules for Reservations, 

more commonly known as FARR. As you may, I am not sure if you 

are aware, but the tribe has received a couple of awards for this 

program. It has been a model program through EPA, through the 

partnership. And the tribe continues to work on its efforts to improve water quality on the reservation, and so we would like continued funding for that through the state and travel partnership. 

Lastly, as you know, the NCAI has produced a comprehensive 

budget request outline for Indian Country which my tribe supports, 

and with that I would like to thank the Committee for hearing my 


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testimony today, and I look forward to continue the good working 

relationship that we have. Thank you. 

[The statement of McCoy Oatman follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Before we move on, just so you know, Mr. Chairman, 

Mr. Oatman said wonderful things about you before you arrived, 

but Mr. Moran and I moved that that be stricken from the record. 

But he did stick up for you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. I appreciate that. Good seeing you 

again. 

Mr. COLE. If we could go on, Ms. Smith. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

ASSINIBOINE AND SIOUX TRIBES OF THE FORT PECK 

RESERVATION 

WITNESS 

ROXANN SMITH 

Ms. SMITH. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon. My 

name is Roxann Smith, and I am the Vice Chairman of Assiniboine 

and Sioux Tribes of the Fort Peck Indian Reservation in Montana. 

Our reservation is located in the northeastern part of the State, 

and we have had so much snow this winter, you would not believe. 

We had over 80 inches of snow in my little area, and we have gone 

through so much money in the area of snow removal. And so it has 

tapped into our reserves at the tribe. So everybody is telling me, 

if you can put a plug in there for any emergency funding for snow 

removal, please do so. 

With that being said, our reservation is approximately 43 percent 

of our people live at below poverty which is not unusual for Indian 

reservations. And with that comes some of our requests. 

We are asking that Congress would increase appropriations for 

the IHS for healthcare for Native Americans, especially in the area 

of mental health funding, hospitals and clinics funding and contract healthcare. 

During the 2009–2010 school year, five of our school children 

committed suicide, and that is a plague that we have had at Fort 

Peck. I was out here earlier this year with Senator Dorgan, and he 

had a summit on suicide. And I myself have lost a son to suicide, 

and so I know the trauma and the devastating effects it has on 

families. And so with that, I implore you that, you know, if you 

could continue to put funding behind IHS because that will in turn 

help in the area of mental health. 

Another scourge that plagues our community is diabetes, and in 

the previous funding request, Fort Peck had asked for an appropriations in the area of dialysis, and that got scratched. It was I 

think considered an earmark, and we would like to see if Congress 

would please help us to build upon the existing dialysis unit that 

we have. Currently we are at capacity with the idea we are guessing that we have an additional 73 to 100 pre-renal diabetics that 

are going to be needing dialysis. And we not only serve our native 

population but we serve all of northeastern Montana. So it serves 

everybody, and it is not just a Native American service. 

I am trying to rush through this, too. Health status of the community is directly related to the quality of water which is why Fort 

Peck tribes took the lead in building the Fort Peck Reservation 


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Rural Water System where we are—I just had a tour of it recently 

with Mr. Echo Hawk came out to visit our tribe, and we took him 

out on a tour and things are going along very well. However, one 

of the areas that we are wishing to ask for assistance on is the 

O&M charges for bringing the water to Poplar. One of the wells actually was contaminated now with the brine water, and we have 

shut down those wells, and we are actually piping in water from 

some external wells. So we are really in dire need there for funding 

that water will bring—we are concentrating on Poplar initially and 

then eventually it is going to reach all of the northeastern part of 

the state. We are needing about an additional $800,000 to operate 

the project. 

Another critical area is the public safety on our reservations. I want to support the $11.4 million request to fund operations of the 

newly constructed detention facilities. The Fort Peck tribes received $1 million from the Department of Justice to rebuild our detention facilities, and this is critical in our ability to operate this 

facility. We actually broke ground last fall, and they are in the 

process of working on that, all of the construction, now. 

Finally I would like to end by talking about economic development and the need to improve and streamline oil and gas development on the reservations. Specifically I urge the Committee to find 

efforts to plug abandoned wells on trust lands. Currently there are 

five wells on the Fort Peck Reservation that need to be plugged at 

an average of $80,000 a well. The BIA failed to fulfill its trust responsibility to ensure that the operators plugged these wells. Now 

we are left with this environmental threat. 

Finally, I urge the Subcommittee to support efforts to streamline 

oil and gas development efforts on the federal trust land. Due to 

the ridiculous bureaucratic maze that oil development companies 

face, they elect to avoid important oil development opportunities on 

reservations for less certain opportunities off reservations. And 

with that, that concludes my report. 

[The statement of Roxann Smith follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you very much. Mr. King. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

FORT BELKNAP INDIAN COMMUNITY 

WITNESS 

TRACY ‘‘CHING’’ KING 

Mr. KING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee. My name is Tracy ‘‘Ching’’ King. I serve as the President 

of the Assiniboine and Gros Ventre in Northcentral Montana 

where, like Vice President Smith said, we had a hard winter. I 

think the past 3 years we started the end of October, first part of 

November and upwards of 50 to 60 below zero with wind chill factor of 66 to 70 below. And so our resources have been drained that 

helps our people keep warm, like the low energy assistance. And 

our tribes have thrown in helping people to heat their homes, and 

it is very important to keep their homes. Many of them are veterans of the war, like myself. I come from a war veterans—tribal 

leaders, and I had a daughter that was capturing insurgents back 

in 2004, and a nephew who was wounded over in Iraq in ’03, and 

then my daughter was—I did not know if she was dead or alive 

when Mosul was hit back before Christmas. 

So my family proudly served this country and my brother was 

left for dead in Vietnam and an uncle killed in World War II. So 

there is a lot of history of veterans that probably served our country. And so we still have a code talker from the Assiniboine Tribe 

that is still alive today and many prisoners of the wars. And so we 

are very proud that their people have served, and it is a big honor 

for me to be part of that. 

With that, we have many issues like the Vice President said, you 

know, suicide is rampant, and it has to do with a lot of the historical trauma and with the—many of us know what the—are being 

sued, and so my brother is part of that suit, you know. It is not 

fun to be part of that because he has to expose what his suicidal 

thoughts were. He now is an alcohol counselor for our CDC program and helps people go through that. 

But education is very important to us as well, but in the State 

of Montana, through the impact aid, in my lifetime I will say I 

have never seen a child fail. But it is us who fail children, and so 

we really need to look at overhauling the educational system that 

impacts Indian Country. And I had some of those who had failed 

and worked on a program with some young ladies and young men 

that were ready to be locked up. And we had this program through 

the Department of Justice that was alternatives to incarceration. 

And the success of that is they went off to war, to Iraq and Afghanistan and became war veterans. And so there are proven ways to 

work with many of our youth to become successful in any job opportunities out there. 

So I am hoping that we could have some mental health like 

Lusamsa and others that would help us to get our youth and their 

families help. Many of our veterans suffer from post-traumatic 

stress, and so we really need to look at beefing up that more to look 


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at ways to have them have a better life, you know, because many 

of them are veterans that have been in the field of World War II, 

Korea, and just about every conflict that there is, we have veterans 

there. 

We also are looking at gas and oil development that we need to 

create jobs and look at our natural resources and ways to make 

some dollars through that. Our budgets through the 638 program 

through BIA, it appears that once the 638 contract, that the money 

kind of goes away or it stalemates, and we never get the increase. 

The distance factor, the weather factor are not really factored into 

the budget formulation process, as well as the cost of living and inflation are not, either. So we are actually always behind with the 

budgets we receive. We also are looking at a water compact settlement just like the Black Feet and the Crow Nations have settled 

with the Congress, we have been working on ours for a number of 

years and are looking at introduction of a bill. And some of those 

lands that were taken away from us back in 1896 were, according 

to the documents of the Cornell Agreement, that a lot of our people 

had a choice to starve or cede the land back to the government. As 

a result, a lot of people became rich off of that, and now there is 

pollution that comes on our reservation. State-of-the-art water 

treatment plants on the waters that go through the towns off the 

reservation, but there is no water system in place on Fort Belknap. 

So our waters are being polluted, there is a high rate of cancer and 

other diseases that are impacting the people of Fort Belknap. So 

that is a huge concern with us. 

Like I said, we have our testimony here, but I want to thank the 

Committee for allowing us to be here and to listen to us. Thank 

you. 

[The statement of Tracy ‘‘Ching’’ King follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you. I have got two sets of quick questions if 

I may, one relates to the oil and gas that both of you mentioned, 

and two questions under that category I have that I would like you 

to address. Number one, we hear this quite often that it is much 

more difficult to develop oil and gas reserves or energy reserves of 

any kind of tribal lands than it is either even other kinds of federal 

lands but certainly privately held lands in the vicinity. 

What are the specific things that make it more difficult bureaucratically, number one, so we could sort of begin to get at that so 

you could use your resources in the way you choose to. And number 

two, you mentioned five or six wells that had not been appropriately capped by the people that were operating them. Are those 

companies that are still in existence that we could go back on? 

Honestly, they have a responsibility once they are finished with the 

production to do that themselves, and certainly that is something 

the BIA or somebody ought to be able to force them to do. 

Ms. SMITH. As far as the capped wells, the Bureau takes a bond, 

you know, the part of the—are given to the Bureau, and then after 

so much time has elapsed, then you give it back. And what happened, there was not anybody monitoring those wells on the BIA 

side, so they just gave the money back to the company. So now 

there are these abandoned wells hanging out up in Fort Peck. 

And then the first question that you had regarding the streamlining is what I am asking for is that we have EPA regulations. 

There is like the BLM, MMS, they all require a certain permit 

process, and what we are asking for is if they can somehow streamline it like they did in North Dakota. They had a one-stop-shop, 

and we are hoping that, you know, they can do the same sort of 

thing at Fort Peck because they are knocking on our doors. I mean, 

if you look at our map of the oil companies, they are all around the 

reservation. All they have to pay is $25 to go on a non-Indian piece 

of land, and they have to pay $7,500 to go onto tribal lands. 

Mr. COLE. That is certainly something we ought to look at. It is 

not appropriate. 

The other question I have, do you all have a school on your reservation, your BIE school? Okay. I’m just curious. So it is an impact aid issue with you strictly. Okay. Thank you very much. Mr. 

Moran. 

Mr. MORAN. It is interesting, but I think you covered. I am fine. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. No, I am fine. Thanks for being here, Chairman. 

I appreciate it. Sorry I missed the first of your testimony, but we 

get a chance to talk frequently. 

Mr. COLE. Ms. McCollum. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Thank you. Could you just elaborate a little 

more on the need for dialysis? I also have something for Mille Lacs 

Band for dialysis, especially in a rural area, and how you serve. Do 

you serve all the way down into Sidney, Fairview? 

Ms. SMITH. We have some people that come from Circle, that 

area. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Oh, my gosh. 

Ms. SMITH. And they drive up—need to drive up every week, you 

know, for their dialysis. They come up—to poplar. 


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Ms. MCCOLLUM. Is the North Dakota Department of Health, are 

they—I mean, some of this is it is tribal but it is also a public 

health issue. Is the State of North Dakota trying to do anything 

to—— 

Ms. SMITH. Dialysis unit in Williston, and it is a 70-mile drive 

for our people to Williston to have their dialysis. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. That is where my grandmother went was 

Williston. And then when the weather is bad on top of it. And how 

often do some of the elders have to go in for dialysis, twice a week? 

And they are there for four to six hours? 

Ms. SMITH. And then what we are looking at if we continue to 

see an influx of people, we are going to have to open up for a second shift of dialysis because, you know, we will have to hire more 

people. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. And was part of the dialysis center—I know the 

nations have been talking together about how to address this epidemic. Was part of what the dialysis center was going to be part 

about was prevention, monitoring and doing other things besides 

just the dialysis? It was going to have a, holistic is the wrong word, 

but a very broad approach to it? 

Ms. SMITH. Well, just feel we need to expand our dialysis as far 

as I know—expand the—— 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Okay. And then one other question, Mr. Chair. 

Some dialysis places now have almost two shifts, but the machines 

have to be maintained, there is cleaning in between, things like 

that. Is it more than one shift at your dialysis unit? 

Ms. SMITH. She goes Monday through Saturday and the holiday. 

I think she opens at 6:00 in the morning until 6:00 at night, all 

day long. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. So she is at capacity. Thank you. 

Mr. KING. Mr. Chairman, as far as Fort Belknap, our enrolled 

members have anywhere from 150-mile to 500-mile round trip, and 

my nephew gets up about 3:00 in the morning and probably gets 

done about 6:00 in the evening, and that is one of the things we 

were looking at is the change of diets as well as using buffalo meat 

to feed our people. But unfortunately, we have to pay a $40-perhour USDA fee, and that kind of holds us back a lot. 

Mr. COLE. Well, thank you very much for your testimony, and I 

appreciate that. It is very helpful. If we can, we are going to move 

by just calling groups of people up. If we could have Mr. Whitebird, 

Mr. Zorn, President Maulson, Chief Rodgers and Chairman Billie. 

Okay, welcome. If we can we will start at the far end and again, 

if you could identify yourself before you deliver your testimony, 

that will make it a lot easier on the clerk. Yeah, if the red light 

is on, it is on. 

Mr. WHITEBIRD. Can you hear me? 

Mr. COLE. Yeah, keep it close, though. 


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TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

LEECH LAKE BAND OF OJIBWE 

WITNESS 

EUGENE ‘‘RIBS’’ WHITEBIRD 

Mr. WHITEBIRD. Thank you Chairman Simpson, Ranking Member Moran, representative McCollum and Congressman Cole for allowing me to testify today. My name is Ribs Whitebird. I am a 

member of the tribal council of Leech Lake Band of Ojibwe. Our 

reservation is located in northern Minnesota. My reservation has 

numerous needs, but today I will focus solely on the band’s need 

to replace its high school facility at the Bug-O-Nay-Ge-Shig School. 

The School is administered and funded by the BIA. We estimate 

that the cost to replace our high school is about $25 million. We 

do not understand why the U.S. can spend billions and billions of 

dollars on wars and foreign aid like Pakistan and Iraq but cannot 

build a school for Indian kids. 

Under our treaty of 1855, the Leech Lake Reservation was established. The band gave up millions of acres of land. In return, the 

U.S. is supposed to provide for band welfare which includes providing our kids with decent and safe schools. Further, the U.S. 

Congress passed the Nelson Act of 1889, the Dawes Act for Minnesota, and other federal laws specific to Minnesota to take more 

of our land. 

Logging companies wanted our—and homesteaders wanted our 

land for farming. In return, proceeds from land and timber share 

were supposed to be used for our schools. The U.S. has never met 

these obligations. 

The school serves nearly 300 Indian children in grades K–12. 

The students commute to the school from working communities 

within a 70-mile radius. The school had won many awards for its 

academic achievement which is native language programs. I have 

also provided you with pictures of students at the school. 

The elementary and middle-school facilities are in satisfactory 

condition, but the high school needs to be replaced. The current facility is a metal-clad pole barn. One-third of the facility was destroyed in a gas explosion in 1992. The facility has serious structural and mechanical deficiencies and lacks proper insulation. This 

facility does not meet safety, fire and security standards. Also, the 

facility has electrical problems and lacks alarm systems. Further, 

the building lacks a communication intercom system, telecom technologies and safe zones which puts everyone at the greatest risk 

during emergencies. Also, the facility jeopardizes the health of the 

students—indoor air quality from mold, fungus and faulty HVAC 

system. The facility suffers from rodents in it. Roof leaks, sagging—uneven floor, poor lighting, sewer problem, lack of handicap 

access and lack of classroom and other space—facility’s numerous 

deficiencies. 

Due to unsafe and undesirable condition of the high school, many 

students leave after middle school to attend other schools. Students 

are embarrassed about the condition of the high school resulting in 

a negative image of the school in the community and the lower enrollment rate. The high school is on the BIA list of schools in need 


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of replacement. The BIA has acknowledged that the school has exceeded its life expectancy by decades. By BIA categories, the high 

school facility has been in poor condition. 

The high school is among more than 70 schools funded by the 

BIE that are in poor condition. BIE construction backlog is at least 

$1.3 billion. There needs to be sustained funding to adjust the 

backlog. 

We appreciate that times are tough financially. We know that $1.3 billion is a lot of money, but our kids should not be the ones 

forced to shoulder the burden. $1.3 billion is a drop in the bucket 

compared to what the U.S. spends every day overseas. The Administration’s fiscal year 2012 budget request does not even come close 

to making a dent in the backlog. The administration proposes only 

$52.1 million toward BIE school construction which is a cut of $61 

million from last year’s enacted level. You cannot build much with 

that. 

These funding levels are unacceptable. In fiscal year 2005, fund- ing of BIE school construction is $263 million. We urge the BIA to 

increase funding for BIE school construction, not decrease it. The 

lives of our children are at stake. 

In conclusion, we pledge and urge the committee to help us replace our high school. The fact is simple, that the high school is not 

safe and should not be a place where kids go to school. With all 

due respect, I doubt that anyone sitting at this table will allow 

their children in school in this type of—facilities that our children 

go to school in. Chairman Simpson, if it is okay with you, I would 

like to provide you with a booklet of information about the school. 

Thank you. 

[The statement of Eugene ‘‘Ribs’’ Whitebird follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you very much. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

LAC DU FLAMBEAU BAND OF LAKE SUPERIOR 

CHIPPEWA 

WITNESSES 

TOM MAULSON 

LARRY WAWRONOWICZ 

Mr. MAULSON. I said I was Lac Du Flambeau, Wisconsin, northern part of the State where things are cold, just as cold as Minnesota. 

Mr. Chairman, madam, gentlemen, I come here as a treaty tribe, 

and I come here to identify that as really important that it is your 

obligation to me and my people back home and all the other tribal 

leaders that are sitting here in this here room that there is something far greater than just appropriate and making sure that our 

dollars are going to be affordable to us. I come here looking like 

we were begging you people for those particular dollars that is 

owed to us as Indian people. I brought with me my Natural Resource Director, Larry Wawronowicz, in reference to some of the 

things that he has done on our reservation in the last 25 years. 

You have heard the horror stories of Indian Country—and education. There is not enough dollars out there to continue that type 

of movement to bring our children to the forefront, to make them 

just as qualified or better than some people are there. We have the 

Bureau of Indian Affair dollars that are needed. We got conservation programs. We have programs in our housing where we have 

got people standing in line almost 100 waiting for homes on our 

reservation. We have these same major problems in reference to 

making sure that our people back home in the wintertime have 

ample heat. We have many shortfalls. We have come to Congress 

many times, spent hundreds of thousands of dollars as we come in 

the past years to come and sit at these here tables and come to 

visit you all in your offices and identify our needs back home. 

So I definitely as a tribal chairman of my people, I ask you to 

support these here endeavors that a lot of these leaders are requesting of this organization, this Congress, to make sure that, you 

know, that things are in place for us as Indian people out there, 

your fiduciary responsibility, you know, according to treaty rights. 

[The statement of Tom Maulson follows:] 


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Mr. MAULSON. I want to give my time to my Executive Director 

of our Natural Resources so he can identify some of the needs back 

home. We need jobs. We are putting people to work under these 

type of programs. Larry. 

Mr. WAWRONOWICZ. I am Larry Wawronowicz, Natural Resource 

Director for the Lac du Flambeau Band. One of the things that the 

tribes in the Midwest area are blessed with very good natural resources. We have a lot of water, and we have a lot of land. And 

we have both on- and off-reservation treaty rights which we need 

to protect. Jim Zorn is here with the Great Lakes Indian Fish and 

Wildlife Commission and will talk a little bit more about the offreservation stuff. But on-reservation management is very, very important. A lot of the Midwest tribes require to have clean air, water 

and land to be able to support their hunting, fishing and gathering 

rights. It is absolutely imperative that we do have clean air, water 

and land in order for us to be able to exercise treaty rights, culture, 

our way of life, the way we view things as native peoples. It is just 

so important. 

Our testimony gets in specifics. Indian education is very, very 

important, but conservation, law enforcement funding as well as 

funding for EPA programs seems to be—I mean, it gives us the opportunity to have environmental presence on the reservation. In 

order for us to be able to develop economically, we are going to 

have clean air, water and land. So it is very, very important that 

we tie the natural resources and the ability to have clean air, water 

and land for us as a nation, a tribal nation, as well as a federal 

Nation to be able to provide economic opportunities for our citizens. 

I mean, it is imperative, absolutely imperative that we have those 

three resources, clean air, water and land. 

So with that, I hope that, you know, you take the time to read 

our testimony. We have some specific needs and specific requests. 

But the bottom line is this. If we do not have clean air, water and 

land, we are nothing as a nation. Thank you very much for your 

time. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you for your testimony. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF FLORIDA 

WITNESS 

COLLEY BILLIE 

Mr. BILLIE. I am Chairman Colley Billie from the Miccosukee 

Tribe of Indians of Florida. Chairman Simpson, Ranking Member 

Moran, and Subcommittee members, on behalf of the Miccosukee 

tribe of Indians of Florida, thank you for the opportunity to appear 

before this Subcommittee. I also wish to thank Congressman Cole 

and the other Members of Congress with whom I have met recently 

for their efforts to enact a legislative fix to address the harmful effects of the Supreme Court’s decision in Carcieri v. Salazar. I 

strongly urge the Congress to take immediate action to enact a 

clean remedy. The longer the delay, the more Indian Country will 

suffer. 


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I have two general matters to briefly discuss this afternoon that 

are included in my prepared remarks, dispelling the myth that federal tribal assistance programs are no longer needed because of 

gaming and raise awareness about an environmental catastrophe 

in the making in our home, the Florida Everglades. 

There is a misperception that federal tribal programs are welfare. This is not the case. Rather, they are designed to enable the 

Federal Government to honor its trust responsibilities arising from 

numerous treaties, laws, policies, agreements and practices. Without the special relationship, it would be difficult, and in the case 

of some types, impossible to provide assistance for the young, elder 

and infirmed as well as manage tribal judicial systems. Some 

tribes, like the Miccosukees, have gaming. Through these businesses, many tribes have been able to defeat the vicious cycle of 

poverty that plagues Indian Country. They help achieve significant 

improvements in the area of health, housing and education. Yet, 

even those tribes that have successful gaming businesses have been 

severely impacted by the global economic crisis. 

I urge you to take a close look at these Federal Government commitments and make sure that they are not defunded or underfunded. If you are looking to save federal tax dollars, the 

Miccosukee people have the ideal project for you, a very expensive 

and scientifically unsound bridging project that will cause great 

harm to the Everglades and the Miccosukee. We must honor the 

Earth from where we are made is a central tenant of the 

Miccosukee people. Our efforts to protect the Everglades are welldocumented, and our future commitment unwavering. When it 

comes to Everglades restoration, however, our tribe has struggled 

for decades to have an equal place at the table. 

In 2008, the Interior Department and Army Corps of Engineers 

decided to build a one-mile bridge alongside U.S. highway 41. The 

initial price tag was $233 million, and more bridges are supposedly 

planned for the Tamiami Trail. We immediately realized that this 

project was fiscally and scientifically unsound. Because of the lack 

of fulsome consultation, we were forced to go to federal court. The 

Judge called it, and I quote, ‘‘an environmental bridge to nowhere’’ 

and issued a temporary injunction to stop construction until all federal laws were complied with. Our victory, however, was shortlived. Unfortunately, Congress was misinformed about this decision 

and was mistakenly led to believe and to intervene the following 

year by inserting language in the 2009 Omnibus Appropriation Act 

that said, ‘‘Notwithstanding any other provision of law’’ the onemile bridge was to be built. This section of the law violates several 

statutes and our Constitutional rights. We were not consulted on 

this matter back then, but you can do something about it today. Do 

not approve additional bridges. You should also order a halt to any 

further work on the Tamiami Trail one-mile bridge until all the 

federally required studies are completed and our concerns afforded 

meaningful consideration. By stopping construction of these Department of Interior and Army Corps skyway bridges, you would 

be saving the taxpayers approximately $400 million. 

There is a less expensive, safer and scientifically viable alternative supported by the tribe and experts such as the Formal Regional Commandant of the Army Corps of Engineers. This apVerDate Mar 15 2010 04:23 Jun 30, 2011 Jkt 066982 PO 00000 Frm 00423 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A982P2.XXX A982P2

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proach focuses on clearing existing culverts located underneath the 

road to increase water flow. Clearing the culvert is simple, cost-effective and should be tried before costly bridges damage the Everglades we are trying to restore, as well as destroy Miccosukee ancestral and sacred lands. This method is consistent with the Comprehensive Everglades Restoration plan. 

Finally, the Miccosukee Tribe thanks for allowing me this opportunity to share our thoughts with you. We look forward to working 

with this Congress—in my language, that means thank you. 

[The statement of Colley Billie follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chief Rodgers. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

CATAWBA INDIAN NATION 

WITNESS 

DONALD RODGERS 

Mr. RODGERS. Good afternoon. I am Chief Rodgers of the Catawba Indian Nation in South Carolina, so I thank you all for allowing me to be here. 

I first want to begin my testimony by expressing my appreciation 

for the support that this Subcommittee itself has provided the Catawba Tribe on budget and audit issues that I had to address almost 31⁄2 years ago when I took my tenure as Chief. 

With the support of Chairman Simpson, Ranking Member 

Moran, and Congressman Cole and the Subcommittee as a whole, 

the Bureau of Indian Affairs took action that allowed the Catawba 

to receive several millions of dollars of funds that had been allocated to the tribe we could not access, and only a month ago we 

were notified that a debt to the BIA that we simply could not repay 

was forgiven, and I want to thank you personally for that. Thank 

you so much. 

We now have clean audits, and we are free from crippling financial liabilities. Your support then and now means a great deal to 

the Catawba people as a whole, and on their behalf I would like 

to say a heartfelt thank you for all that. 

I also want to thank this Subcommittee for last year’s support 

in seeking passage of the Carcieri fix. Early on there were suggestions that the Catawba was one of the tribes that would no longer 

be able to take land in the trust because of the Supreme Court’s 

bizarre decision in Carcieri v. Salazar. However, Interior has recently made clear in writing that it believes the Supreme Court’s 

decision does not directly affect the Catawba. Nonetheless, the 

Court decision is unfair, is already generating a growing mountain 

of litigation and will create jurisdictional uncertainties throughout 

Indian Country, and I applaud the Subcommittee’s action last year 

to move the Carcieri fix legislation and ask that you continue to 

strongly advocate for this and seek for its final putting to rest this 

year. 

As we had discussed before, the Catawba Nation is one of a 

handful of federally recognized tribes that do not enjoy the range 

of sovereign powers possessed by most federally recognized Indian 

nations. Under the terms of our Settlement Act, we possess what 

I would term second-class tribal sovereignty. For example, in the 

area of gaming, we are not authorized to establish gaming operations pursuant to the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act. Instead, we 

are limited to two bingo halls which only enjoy a modest advantage 

over bingo halls already established in the State. 

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tawba are committed to becoming economically and self-sufficient 

to help us move forward in the future. 

In the 2000 census the Catawba Indian Nation had a per capita income of just a little over $11,000. The estimated current unemployment rate among the Catawba is more than double that of the 

State of South Carolina which itself is very high unemployment. 

The tribe currently has no operating economic development ventures. I have highlighted in my written testimony four projects we 

are working to begin the process for developing a tribal economy. 

The first one is the Catawba market, a gas station that will create 

jobs and improve services on the reservation to provide much-needed assets and necessity for tribal members there located. A major 

road extension to provide decent and safe access to our reservation 

so we can open up other economic development opportunities. We 

had a young child go blue on our reservation about six months ago. 

It took an ambulance 45 minutes to get to our reservation. It is 

horrible thing, so this road extension is much needed. 

A ride-share program to get members of our nation to jobs located throughout the surrounding area to help and assist to do 

that. And a summer youth program to engage in education and 

prevention activities for our young. 

I want to also give a plug for Indian Health Service. Much-needed services are needed there, contract support and these issues. 

But I want to take this opportunity to thank you for allowing me 

to talk on behalf of Catawba Indian Nation and your support for 

our people and indeed for all native people is greatly appreciated 

and truly in the best traditions of the government relationship. 

And again, I say—thank you very much. 

[The statement of Donald Rodgers follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you very much, Chief. Mr. Zorn. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

GREAT LAKES INDIAN FISH AND WILDLIFE 

COMMISSION 

WITNESS 

JAMES ZORN 

Mr. ZORN. My name is James Zorn. I am the Executive Administrator of the Great Lakes Indian Fish and Wildlife Commission, 

and on behalf of our 11 tribal nations located in Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan, including Mille Lacs and Fon du Lac in Minnesota and Chairman Maulson, Lac du Flambeau, we extend our 

appreciation for being here. And on behalf of their 38,000 tribal 

members who continue to enjoy the rights to hunt, fish and gather 

on lands that the courts have ruled were sold to the United States 

in various treaties but on which the tribes might continue their life 

ways to meet their subsistence, their economic, their cultural, their 

spiritual and medicinal needs, that is the nature of the Great 

Lakes Indian Fish and Wildlife Commission program that this body 

has funded for over 25 years with the support of all administrations, all Congresses of the Rights Protection Implementation program. So we are here to talk about that as well as the EPA Great 

Lakes Restoration Initiative. 

The Commission is grateful for the fiscal year 2011 appropriations for these types of programs. They were held pretty harmless 

from some drastic potential cuts and the contract support increases. We greatly appreciate that, and we will do what we can 

to help you in fiscal year 2012 to try to achieve the same result. 

And so we are here today to help remind the Committee as to 

why these programs are important to the tribal communities, the 

real-world benefits they achieve and why these are really good examples of good government programs that get the money into the 

hands of the tribes, where that money should go, that produce not 

only healthier people because they are eating traditional foods, 

they are engaging in traditional exercises; we are trying to get the 

kids off their butts and out into the woods and on the lakes to do 

some real activities; reviving language; support tribal economic enterprise, not only of commercial fishermen but of folks who sell 

wild rice, maple syrup and so on. The cost of food is high now. 

These foods are very expensive, and so to be able to fish, hunt and 

gather is very important. And the relationship to diabetes as we 

heard a former chair talk about for example and other diseases in 

tribal communities, getting back to the natives’ food is very important. 

So we strongly support the $30.5 million for the Rights Protection Implementation program. I know you will hear from the Columbia River folks and Billy Frank tomorrow. They will say the 

same. Do not let Billy steal too much, please. GLIFWC gets about 

$5.6 million of that, and you know, that is really important money 

because it provides the base on which we can leverage other 

money, including the Great Lakes Restoration Initiative. You 


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know, that $5.6 million grows into $8 million for us. We supply 

about 70 full-time jobs, about 140 seasonal jobs in areas that are 

chronically under- or unemployed. This is really important for our 

member tribes. We operate a comprehensive natural resource management program of biologists, of conservation officers, that provide 

benefits not just to the tribal communities but to the surrounding 

communities. For example, and we are grateful to the Administration for highlighting this in their department highlights, I think on 

page 64, where two of our conservation officers stumbled upon during their routine patrol duties, 150 pot plants in a state forest in 

northern Wisconsin. Well, you call up the local drug task force, and 

their line was, wait a minute. You guys know the woods. You go 

back out there and sit on that until the people come. Okay. So we 

have fully trained certified officers. We are the ones who busted the 

guy that came back to harvest the pot. 

And so just the notion that these tribal programs benefit only Indians is fallacious. It benefits the surrounding communities. Our 

officers are there for everybody. They respond to auto accidents, 

medical emergencies. Our biologists provide fish for everybody, protect habitat for everybody. 

So that is the nature of our Rights Protection Implementation 

program. In terms of the Great Lakes Restoration Initiative, the 

$300 to $350 million is fantastic. Thank you. We would like to push 

for some money there for tribes, perhaps $25 million that is funneled through the Indian Self-Determination Act. That got to the 

ground quicker before the field season before any other money got 

out from any other agency. Let’s see if we can beat that up and do 

better. 

The youth, final sum-up. Our tribes are very committed to trying 

to figure out how to get Indian kids into careers, natural resource 

management conservation officers just out there to reconnect with 

their grandma and grandpa doing the things that Indian families 

should do. We have initiated a conservation internship program 

this year. We are trying to get kids out to camps early on in their 

lives so that they appreciate the outdoors again. We are trying to 

get kids back in the language programs. 

So any help that you can provide in this type of area, you know, 

there are all sorts of initiatives we are being asked to get involved 

in. But the capacity for tribes to do so is greatly stretched. We have 

a hard enough time doing our basic job, let alone dealing with a 

whole bunch of new initiatives. 

Thank you very much. We really appreciate the opportunity to 

be here. 

[The statement of James Zorn follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. I thank all of you for your testimony. Let me make 

a couple of points, and then we will get into questions. Number 

one, a number of you mentioned the Carcieri issue and I could not 

agree more. But I would be remiss not to point out that we would 

not have gotten it through the House last year if it had not been 

for then-Chairman Moran and now Chairman Simpson who worked 

together for us to do something on this Committee. That is very unusual. That stretches our rules. I am sure we never would have violated them by legislating on an appropriations bill. But that was 

a very bi-partisan issue here. It was a 14 to 0 vote. I know everybody on this Committee is still committed to doing that. Mr. Kildee 

has a bill out there, I have got a bill that is out there, I think Mr. 

Young is here later today and I suspect the subject will come up, 

and I think he is committed. Our biggest problem quite honestly 

tends to be in the United States Senate on this as opposed to the 

House because it did get through the House, and the Administration has been very good on this. They very much want to deal with 

this as well. So hopefully we can have a real bipartisan effort and 

get that done. 

I also want to point out a number of you mentioned that you had 

been shielded a little bit from the 2011 budget cuts. The gentleman 

to my right is solely responsible for that and has scars to show it. 

And again, Chairman Simpson and this Committee’s commitment 

in this area on the bi-partisan basis is genuine. A number of you 

made really compelling cases about the education of Indian children. I do want to ask one question on that, and I could not agree 

more. That is a federal responsibility and it is a trust responsibility. There is no way that we have come anywhere close to fulfilling our obligations in those areas, and I do not know if you 

would have these figures, but I am increasingly interested any time 

I can to find out if you can tell us what is the expenditure per child 

roughly or per student in the schools that you represent. They are 

usually BIE schools but whatever your local school is, and then I 

would love to see the contrast of that with schools in the States because if there is a federal responsibility, I would think we ought 

to be roughly doing for the children in Indian Country what the 

surrounding states are doing for their children. Otherwise, I do not 

see how the educational opportunity can be remotely comparable. 

So if you have that data, I would be very interested in you sharing it with the Committee. 

Mr. WHITEBIRD. I do not know exactly what it is, but we are 

going to find out what it is and stuff like that because it is different 

from state to state and children. I think a lot of it has to do with 

enrollment and stuff like that in areas that we are in. 

Mr. COLE. Yeah, I think it will and I think Ms. McCollum made 

the point earlier, taking out the transportation component, or separating it, because a lot of what you encounter on some of our reservations, obviously, the transportation expenses are enormous, 

and they really should not be counted directly toward the educational cost. But I am going to ask the staff on this Committee 

to do what they can to help us get that information because I think 

it is going to be quite striking when we see again how far behind 

the Federal Government is in its responsibilities to Indian children 


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versus the state and local governments in the neighboring areas. 

Thanks for bringing that up. Ms. McCollum. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Thank you, Mr. Chair. First of all, Chairman 

Billie, it is interesting that you spoke about a bridge. I have a 

mayor from Minnesota, and we are going to be talking about a 

bridge and some legislation to override some of the federal protections for the St. Croix River. So thank you for your comments, and 

local government officials from the areas that are impacted should 

be consulted, and it is a shame that you were not listened to. 

Mr. BILLIE. Yes, that is all we have been asking for, to give us 

an opportunity to be heard and to be given serious consideration 

to some of our concerns. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. I have one question for council member 

Whitebird. Ribs, when you were talking about people not wanting 

to attend school there and the importance of a school reflecting how 

we value our youth, I have had an opportunity to be at the school. 

Can you elaborate a little more as a council member what you hear 

from parents, what you hear from students and how that affects 

your enrollment because then when you go to count the number of 

students, you do not have as many students as normally would be 

attending a school that was in good repair. 

Mr. WHITEBIRD. I go to both schools. I go to Catholic, be in a public school and talk a lot and then I go to the Bug School to associate with the students out there, like those graduations coming up 

now. You are hearing students talk about ashamed of the high 

school that is out there, you know, due to—like I said in here, we 

get academic awards and stuff, you know, and then they are scared 

to go on to any other schools, like any other kid would. You know, 

I would want a top-notch school instead of a pole barn building. 

You know, that is terrible out there. 

And then I share it out into my local Indian council meetings, 

and I got the District II rep who is here today that he can tell them 

the same thing, you know, we definitely need a new high school. 

When other people come in there and play sports—and they got to 

go to that school? You know, our kids get talked about, I mean, run 

down at other schools. And it gets back into the community, and 

when it gets back into the community, it gets back to me, and how 

do you think I feel? There is something that has got to be done, 

and that is why you know, I am here testimony on hopefully that 

we can get something done, a new school in the near future. 

And you know, we have been working on this now for about 2 

years, and you know, it seems like—I want to make one point in 

here that I did make. You know, I think it is very important for 

the Appropriation Committee to look at and that is, you know, we 

spend billions and billions of dollars on war. If you take a good look 

at it, you know, I hear other Indian leaders around Indian Country 

say this, if we had $1 billion of this, you know, that would help 

solve a lot of the Indian program, not every program, but across 

Indian Country. 

You know, I think it is very important for the Appropriations 

Committee to look at, and that is, you know, we spend billions and 

billions of dollars on war. You know, if you take a good look at it, 

you know, other Indian leaders around Indian culture say this. If 

we had $1 billion of this, you know, that would help us all, a lot 


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of the Indian program, not every program but across Indian Country. Take a good look at how much goes to the war, people we are 

helping out in tsunami, Japan, whatever, you know, but we are left 

out. 

You know, we are definitely put on the back burner when we 

were the first ones here and I do believe, you know, that we should 

be treated like first-class citizens like we are supposed to be. Our 

treaties are broken, you know, I hear this all the time at the big 

meetings, NCAI and NIGA, you know, it is just a tough battle. We 

are one battle after another, all the Indian leaders across the Indian nation; we are all together on one. You know, we want to be 

back up here where we belong. Thanks for listening. Thanks for 

your comments, Congressman Cole, Congressman McCollum, and 

Simpson. You know, I heard a lot of good things here today and 

I hope you help us all. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Just a couple quick things. One, Ribs, how do you 

pronounce the name of that school? 

Mr. WHITEBIRD. Bug-O-Nay-Ge-Shig. 

Mr. SIMPSON. And what does it mean? 

Mr. WHITEBIRD. All in a day. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Okay. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Which is named after—I will tell you later more 

about the school. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Okay. 

Mr. WHITEBIRD. All in a day. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I am trying to figure it out. 

Mr. ZORN. Betty could tell you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Jim, you mentioned the Great Lakes Restoration 

Project, the geographical program. 

Mr. ZORN. Right. 

Mr. SIMPSON. We have got several of those: Puget Sound, Chesapeake Bay, Great Lakes, San Francisco Bay now. Do you get money 

from that program for projects for the tribes to do on the reservations and other types of things? 

Mr. ZORN. Yes, reservation and treaty-seated territory. 

Mr. SIMPSON. One of the complaints—I do not know if this is 

true—actually from people around the region up there, around the 

Great Lakes—is that there is—what was the appropriation for that 

last year? Do you remember, Darren? 

DARREN BENJAMIN. Four hundred seventy-five, was it not? 

Mr. SIMPSON. Four hundred seventy-five was the year before. 

$350 million this year under the last year. 

DARREN BENJAMIN. Three hundred eleven, was it not? I think it 

was $311 million. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Okay. 

DARREN BENJAMIN. Yeah. Yeah. 

Mr. SIMPSON. All of the geographic programs took somewhat of 

a hit. 

DARREN BENJAMIN. Right. Exactly. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Which means we did not have to go after BIA or 

any health services or some of those other ones. Some of those 

other programs took a hit. But some of the complaints I hear—and 

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cerns, I guess, is a better word—is that this $311 million or whatever it is goes out to all these little things and there is not an overall big plan about how we are going to clean up the Great Lakes 

and that they need a plan and to be able to do this on a grander 

scale than what they are currently doing. Do you find that true 

or—— 

Mr. ZORN. Well, the balance there is if you over-regionalize the 

Great Lakes, you tend to miss certain things. Like Lake Superior 

tends to be the cleanest of the lakes, and if you focus on restorations, say, like down in Lake Eerie, what do you have to do to Lake 

Superior before you are eligible for dollars? And so there is this effort to find a way to quarterback it through, say, Camp Davis or 

someone else in the administration while also having the diversity 

of each of the Great Lakes and some of these successful existing 

structures. So I do not find that necessarily to be true because I 

think if you over-centralize it, you are going to create this hourglass; you are going to lose your chance to accomplish good things 

and preserve things that need to be preserved. I do agree that 

there has been probably too much talking and not a lot of action 

and I think people are trying to correct that. And I think the whole 

issue of trying to get that initial 475 out into the field, how long 

it took—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. Um-hum. 

Mr. ZORN [continuing]. Compared to what it took to get the tribal 

dollars out through the Indian Self-Determination Act. That is 

something we would like to have looked at because we think we 

can get the dollars out there quicker to do more on-the-ground 

good. That is the continuing concern. I think we have to be concerned about over-governance, though, because then it is all talk, 

all around the table instead of going out and doing things. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Well, the other side of the argument, and it is 

probably just as valid is that pollution does not come out of one 

great big pipe. 

Mr. ZORN. Exactly. 

Mr. SIMPSON. It comes in small things, and you clean it up in 

those areas that happen to cause the problems. I do not think anybody on the committee is opposed to these geographical programs 

and what we are doing because we all want to maintain the greatest body of fresh water—— 

Mr. ZORN. Right. 

Mr. SIMPSON [continuing]. In North America and these other, 

Puget Sound and Chesapeake Bay. We want to do whatever is necessary to clean those up. We just want to make sure that the dollars that we are spending are actually achieving a goal. 

Mr. ZORN. And we are on board with you. Please keep looking 

over our shoulder because the accountability is important. If we 

cannot show results, this is not going to keep coming. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I appreciate it. What were you going to say? 

Mr. WAWRONOWICZ [continuing]. Management plan that is basically council-driven, people-driven where the research—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. Turn on your mike. 

Mr. WAWRONOWICZ [continuing]. What are the resources of values to the tribal members and the non-Indian community that is 

living within the boundaries of a reservation. And we utilize the 


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Great Lakes Restoration Initiative this year for fiscal year 2011 we 

are going to have $300,000 that is going to be working within the 

Basin in order to provide, like I indicated in testimony earlier, 

clean air, water, and land. Lake Sturgeon Restoration is one 

project, Wetland Enhancement projects that we have going on the 

res, Wild Rice Enhancement, a lot of those ecosystem approaches 

that if you, you know, take care of your ecosystem at home, you 

know, that will, you know, just regionally be a benefit to the Great 

Lakes region. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Let me just ask you, on your reservation, do you 

have your own clean air standards, clean water standards, or do 

you have—— 

Mr. WAWRONOWICZ. We have federally-approved clean water 

standards. 

Mr. SIMPSON. These are your standards—— 

Mr. WAWRONOWICZ. Our standards, yes. 

Mr. SIMPSON [continuing]. That have been federally approved? 

Mr. WAWRONOWICZ. Correct. 

Mr. SIMPSON. And do you enforce those or does the EPA enforce 

those? 

Mr. WAWRONOWICZ. EPA will enforce those. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Okay. 

Mr. WAWRONOWICZ. We have federally-approved water quality 

standards. We are working on air standards as we speak. The 

other thing that we are also utilizing is Department of Energy 

money to come up with an energy plan in order for the reservation 

to reduce its use of fossil fuels by 25 percent by the year 2025. So, 

you know, that is all with an integrated resource management plan 

that we have that is council-driven, that gives us the opportunity 

to go after federal dollars, you know, tribal dollars in order to 

maintain that clean air, water, and land. You know, and to be 

quite honest with you, like I indicated I mean without that, economic development will not be possible with an Indian Country or 

within the United States of America because that is the basic supply follow it. I mean, we just cannot cut corners in that area as a 

Nation. We just cannot. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Mr. Chair, on this point I am glad you mentioned, you know, is it pollution that we are measuring? Is it 

invasive species that we are measuring? Is it restoration of wetlands so that a Great Lake does not become further polluted? So 

it is a lot of things and so a regional board needs to oversee that 

we are reaching our goal, but the objectives need to be embraced 

for each one of the lakes, and in Lake Superior, with such a large 

shoreline, even within that. But the question I wanted to ask, because you mentioned the Circle of Flight—— 

Mr. WAWRONOWICZ. Um-hum. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM [continuing]. And I know that that is something 

that I have heard from our tribes back home, which also not only 

affects—you talk about the greater good—it is not only for tribal 

areas but it also supports conservation. I mean, Ducks Unlimited 

supports, and you have wide, wide support on that. Could you talk 

a little bit about your interaction with Fish and Wildlife and how 

cuts to those dollars, how it impacts you? 


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Mr. WAWRONOWICZ. Well, Circle of Flight, you know, it is an initiative that has been in Indian Country for a long time and the 

Great Lakes region, was 20 years or so now. And we are able to 

utilize those dollars for leverage. In other words, the money that, 

you know, that Congress appropriates, you know, the President 

puts in his budget, Congress appropriates it, we are able to use 

that money to, you know, to work with Ducks Unlimited. For our 

example, on our reservation we have the Pall Marsh in which we 

were able to provide monies to the State of Wisconsin in order to 

do some work on their side of the marsh in order to enhance waterfall production, be able to, you know, move some water around to 

where it is not having a negative impact on another ecosystem. So, 

you know, there is that cooperation there with those dollars that 

are, you know, benefitting the non-Indian community on and off 

the reservation. We are a checkerboard reservation, which means 

that we have fee land, allotted land, and tribal land that, you 

know, helps protect those resources for both the tribal and nontribal in utilizing those resources. And that is just important. Just 

to mention, the Circle of Flight program did receive an award from 

the Department of the Interior. I always cannot remember the—it 

is the Conservation—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. Partners in Conservation Award. Yeah. 

Mr. WAWRONOWICZ. So in order to do that, you know, I mean we 

have done some good things in Indian Country over the years both 

in Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Michigan. So it is a good program 

and we definitely appreciate continued support from this committee, as well as, you know, the administration that puts it in 

there, so thank you very much. 

Mr. COLE. Before we let you all go, I would be remiss not to recognize Chairman Billie because I want to tell you, he is the only 

person that has ever appeared before this committee that said do 

not build a road and take the money back. I think that alone 

means we ought to really look at this very carefully. He made a 

very good point and a very good case. And if we could, we will let 

you all go and we will bring our next panel up. Ms. Jackie—Ms. 

Johnson I guess I should say formally, Mr. Barnett, Mr. Secatero, 

Dr. Neary, Dr. Deters, and Mr. Miller. It is fine and just what we 

will do is just start at the far end if you would introduce yourself 

and we will work through, give everybody an opportunity to make 

their testimony and then we will open it up for questions and response from the committee. So whenever you would like. Please. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

AMERICAN DENTAL ASSOCIATION 

WITNESS 

MATT NEARY 

Mr. NEARY. Begin my testimony? 

Mr. COLE. Yes. 

Mr. NEARY. Chairman Simpson, Committee Member Cole, I am 

Matt Neary, Chairman of the Council on Government Affairs of the 


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American Dental Association and a practicing dentist in New York 

City. 

The ADA thanks the committee for its support for the Indian 

Health Service Dental Program. Your support has expanded the 

dental division’s recruitment efforts, maintained an adequate level 

of dentists with advanced training, and initiated an electronic dental records system. 

The level of early childhood caries, tooth decay, among the American Indian and Alaska Native children has reached epidemic proportions. Tooth decay is 400 percent higher in this population than 

for all U.S. races. The disease is so extensive that between 25 and 

50 percent of preschool children require full mouth restoration 

under general anesthesia. Aside from the medical risk to the child, 

this is the most expensive way to treat dental disease. It costs 

thousands of dollars to treat a child in a hospital, primarily due to 

anesthesia-related tests and recovery management compared to a 

couple of hundred dollars if the tooth decay is caught at an early 

stage or a few cents per day to prevent it. 

We are very pleased that the IHS is pursuing its Early Childhood Caries Initiative as a cost-effective way of addressing and preventing tooth decay. The American Dental Association shares IHS’s 

concerns about the tooth decay epidemic and supports research 

that will afford us a better understanding of the disease. Last year, 

we hosted our second symposium on the subject. Participants included caries researchers, tribal health officials, pediatric dentists, 

and dental public health staff. 

During the past year, the American Dental Association and four 

state dental associations established a Native American Oral 

Healthcare project to address the imbalance and access to quality 

healthcare among Native Americans. We have held numerous visits 

with tribal leaders to discuss collaborative ways of improving oral 

healthcare in Indian Country and anticipate the development of 

long-term partnerships to achieve those goals. 

For several years, the ADA has come before the committee and 

shared our concerns regarding the number of dental vacancies in 

the IHS. Three years ago, there were over 140 dental positions 

open. Today, there are 45. Several factors have contributed to reducing this number, including the IHS Summer Student Extern 

program. The IHS has been able to place nearly 500 dental students during the past two summers. These students become IHS 

ambassadors when they return to school and contribute to more 

dentists applying for IHS residencies upon graduation. This has 

proven to be a highly effective program, which we look forward to 

continuing into the future. 

Two other areas of high priority are reinstating the funding to 

replace modular dental units at $1 million per year and continuing 

to install the electronic dental health records system for $12 million. As a periodontist, I can tell you that untreated adult oral disease significantly complicates the management and inflates the 

treatment cost associated with diabetes and heart disease, two conditions with extremely high incidence among tribal peoples. The 

eight dental support centers funded by the IHS focus on preventing 

and treating oral disease for all age groups. We have learned from 

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ommend funding the increase by $2 million so that they can service 

each geographic area. 

Oral disease among Native Americans can be significantly reduced with a strong prevention program and a sufficient workforce. 

We cannot drill and fill our way out of this dental disease epidemic. 

That approach will not result in any disease reduction or cost savings. But by focusing on prevention and timely treatment for all 

ages, we can accomplish our goals. I want to thank you for allowing 

ADA to testify. We are committed to working with you, the IHS, 

and the tribes to aggressively reduce the disparity in oral disease 

and care that currently exists in Indian Country. Thank you. 

[The statement of Matt Neary follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Okay. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

NATIONAL INDIAN HEALTH BOARD 

WITNESS 

LESTER SECATERO 

Mr. SECATERO. Mr. Chairman, members of the subcommittee, my 

name is Lester Secatero. I serve as the Albuquerque area representative to the National Indian Health Board and the chairman 

of the Albuquerque Area Indian Health Board. Thank you for inviting me and the NIHB here today to provide testimony regarding 

the fiscal year 2012 budget for the Indian Health Service. 

The NIHB was pleased to learn that for the fiscal year 2012 HIS budget, the administration recommends a $571 million increase 

over the fiscal year 2010 enacted IHS appropriations. We acknowledge that this 14.1 percent increase is quite significant in this 

budget climate, yet this increase is needed to address the critical 

health needs of our tribal communities. This increase also represents a continued commitment to honor the Federal Government’s legal obligation and sacred responsibility to provide 

healthcare to American Indians and Alaska Natives. 

The trust obligation to provide healthcare is paramount, and it 

is upon this foundation that the IHS National Tribal Budget Formulation Workgroup built its recommendation for the fiscal year 

2012 IHS budget. This Workgroup recommends preserving basic 

healthcare programs currently being funded. Current services increases are the lowest budget increments needed to enable the Indian Health System to continue operating at its current level of 

service. This category contains such items as pay cost increases, inflation, contract support costs, funding for the population growth, 

and facilities construction and staffing. Without these increases to 

base funding, the Indian health system would experience a decrease in its ability to care for the current service population. 

Second, significant program increases are required to address the 

overwhelming health needs in Indian Country. The recommended 

increases are made in key IHS budget accounts to enable programs 

to improve and expand the services they provide to Indian patients. 

As you know, the IHS has been plagued by woefully inadequate 

funding, which has made it impossible to supply Indian people with 

the level of care they need and deserve and to which they are entitled by treaty obligation. 

In addition to the Workgroup recommendation, I would like to 

provide additional recommendations regarding the IHS budget. 

First, the President’s proposed budget for IHS includes proposed 

cuts of the small grant programs, but the impact of eliminating 

these programs in Indian Country is enormous. All of these small 

grants serve and target very vulnerable native populations such as 

children, elders, and women, and their purpose is to strengthen 

and build capacity for the long-term health of the tribes in such 

areas as public health, wellness, fighting childhood obesity, and 

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tion, the proposal also includes cutting the small grant to the 

tribes’ primary healthcare resource for information and coordination of the national tribal voice, the National Indian Health Board. 

We ask that you do not implement any cuts to this organization, 

which is vital to improving the health status of all tribal people. 

Second, as a discretionary budget line, the IHS budget falls target to across-the-board cuts to discretionary funding. Such acrossthe-board cuts are detrimental not only to a federal agency’s budget 

but to the lives and well-being of Indian people. Today, the IHS 

budget is funded approximately at half the level of need. Any budget cuts in any form will have harmful effects on healthcare delivery 

to Alaska Natives and American Indians. The NIHB asks the committee to exempt the Indian Health Service from any cuts, freezes, 

or rescissions. 

Lastly, we ask that a plan be put into place to fully fund IHS. 

Developing and implementing a plan to achieve funding parity is 

critical to the future of Indian health and to fulfilling the United 

States’ trust responsibility to AI and AN people. The funding disparities between the IHS and other federal healthcare expenditure 

programs still exist in 2010. IHS spending for medical care was 

$2,741 per user in comparison to the average of federal healthcare 

expenditures of $6,909 per person. On behalf of all the tribes, 

please move forward towards full funding of the IHS budget. On 

behalf of the National Indian Health Board, thank you for the opportunity to address this subcommittee on these important matters. 

[The statement of Lester Secatero follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

NATIONAL CONGRESS OF AMERICAN INDIANS 

WITNESS 

JACQUELINE JOHNSON PATA 

Ms. JOHNSON PATA. Good afternoon. My name is Jacqueline 

Pata. I am the executive director of the National Congress of American Indians. I am also a councilmember for the Tlingit-Haida 

Tribes of Alaska. My testimony today is on behalf of the National 

Congress of American Indians. And first I would like to thank you, 

Chairman Simpson, for holding it and the staff for holding this 

hearing. It is such an honor to be able to come and sit with the 

witnesses back here and listen to tribal leader after tribal leader 

have this one-on-one dialogue with Members of Congress, and I appreciate the history of allowing this to continue. I also want to 

thank you and the members of this committee for the extraordinary 

work that you did at this budget debate cycle and for the respect 

of being able to protect the treaties and other legal instruments 

that are really our relationship with the Federal Government and 

honoring that. 

We know, as this Nation deals with very difficult issues around 

the deficit and tightening the belt and being able to address the ongoing challenges of the budget deficit, that the dialogue will continue to be difficult and we want to let you know that we stand 

with you to be able to help shore you up in any of those areas. We 

also recognize that there will be many proposals to deal with those 

budget reductions and certainly to make the government work 

more efficiently and effectively and we stand with you for looking 

for those ways as tribal leaders and tribal communities to also deal 

with what we can do to contribute, but want to recognize and remember that we should not balance those budget deficits on the 

backs and the expense of the treaty and trust obligations and those 

solemn agreements. 

I want to also say that we are very appreciative as we go forward 

in looking into the next budget cycles of, obviously, the ‘‘Carcieri’’ 

fix, the language that has been included, and certainly was included from the present fiscal year 2012 budget. We believe and we 

hope that this is the year that we will get it through. 

But in addition to that, I want to just bring your attention to the 

overall BIA budget and certainly, you know, even with the protected funding for fiscal year 2011, there has been an effort to address the prior 2012 is we are concerned about the ongoing trend 

of appropriation levels to the Department of the Interior and the 

various agencies. Even in the last nine fiscal years, the budgets for 

Fish and Wildlife Service have grown by 30 percent, the National 

Park Service by 28 percent, and the U.S. Geological Survey by 19 

percent. Meanwhile, BIA has only seen a increase of 8 percent, 

which barely covers any cost-of-living or inflation factors. And we 

have seen this historical trend. So even though we feel like we are 

raising the bar and protecting tribes, in relationship to the other 


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departments within the Department of the Interior, we are sorely 

lagging behind. And so we ask you to take a look at that and to 

be able to help us address this disproportionate funding trend that 

seems to be arising throughout Indian Country. 

Another area that, of course, we have strong united support from 

tribes across the country is funding for the contract support costs. 

I looked at some of my other panel members here; I am sure they 

will speak to it. But with IHS and BIA and tribally-operated 

schools, which are funded by tribal grant support costs, we recommend that the contract support costs be increased to $615 million and the BIA contract support to $228 million, the tribal grant 

support to $70.3 million. And this really would provide full funding. 

Now, full funding means 100 percent funding, which means that 

the government would actually pay the contracts as they pay any 

other contract that they engage in across the Nation with other 

contractors at 100 percent. 

As far as natural resources programs such as Rights Protection 

Implementation, fish hatcheries, forestry, water services, the last 

panel spoke to a lot of those issues. They have been identified as 

critical to Indian tribes in the budget and we have offered specific 

recommendations that you will see in our written testimony. But 

natural resources, of course, are an important part to our tribal 

economies, as well as our cultural values. 

And talking about tribal economies, the last thing I want to 

touch on in my brief moment here is that the Tribal Guarantee 

Loan Guarantee Programs of 5.1 million, these guarantees may 

have been unused but it was not the fault of the tribal leaders that 

it went unused. It was the fault of the Agency for not getting them 

out. This does not mean that we do not need them. And this leveraged dollars 10 to 1 means important financing to tribes and actually will help spur our future economic opportunities. So we hope 

that you restore those loan guarantee funds and look at helping to 

provide that oversight to the federal agencies to ensure that they 

are being properly used. 

So once again, I thank you for the ability to be able to testify 

here today and provide our brief opinions. Thank you. 

[The statement of Jacqueline Johnson Pata follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. You notice how I just moved right 

down—— 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

FRIENDS OF INDIAN HEALTH 

WITNESS 

PAMELA DETERS 

Ms. DETERS. Good afternoon, Chairman Simpson and other committee members. I am Dr. Pam Deters. I am an American Indian 

of Cherokee and Choctaw heritage. I am a clinical psychologist 

practicing in Louisiana and Mississippi. I am also currently the 

president of the Society of Indian Psychologists whose mission is to 

advocate for the mental well being of Native American people. And 

I am a proud member of the American Psychological Association. 

My expertise is in trauma among Native American children, families, and communities with an emphasis on cultural revitalization 

and resilience. My people have experienced an extensive history of 

intergenerational trauma and oppression, including numerous 

atrocities such as forced assimilation, genocide, compulsory enrollment in boarding schools, involuntary relocations of entire tribal 

populations, and the resulting loss of culture and traditional practices. 

As a professor at the University of Alaska, my research entailed 

visiting remote Alaska Native villages and witnessing the devastation of families and communities due to youth suicide, alcohol and 

substance abuse, poverty, and the loss of traditional ways and culture. But I have also witnessed the emergence of wellness programs where communities work to restore and revitalize native culture, language, dance, and traditional healing practices. I have 

served as a statewide director of Alaska Natives into Psychology, 

which is a training program supporting American Indian and Alaska Native students pursuing careers in psychology. I am committed 

to and I am passionate about the importance of training native students to return to their own reservations and their villages to heal 

the physical and mental ills of our people. 

Today, I am representing the Friends of Indian Health, which is 

a coalition of health organizations dedicated to improving the 

health of American Indians and Alaska Natives. The Friends 

thanks the committee for the additional funding in the 2010 bill 

and for maintaining these levels in the continuing resolutions. The 

increased support will help provide care without interruptions or 

reductions. The Friends supports the administration’s proposed 

2012 funding level for the Indian Health Service of over $4 billion. 

This level recognizes the need to close the health disparity gaps experienced by native people. 

However, there are priority areas that, if not addressed, will continue to overwhelm IHS. The most urgent of these is contract 

health services. In 2010, over 168,000 contract health services were 

denied. The root cause of this issue lies in the IHS and Tribal delivery system. The IHS and Tribes operate at over 600 locations, 

the majority of which provide primary medical care but depend on 


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the private sector for secondary and tertiary care. This situation is 

not going to change. Therefore, the request for contract health services funds needs to be realistic. The administration’s request for 

over $948 million is significant but a more realistic amount would 

be over $1 billion. 

The Friends strongly supports prevention and early treatment 

programs to reduce the need for contract health services, but that 

depends on a sufficient workforce. Filling vacancies through loan 

repayment has proven to be the best recruiting and retention tool 

for IHS. The average retention period for IHS loan repayment recipients is over seven years. Therefore, the Friends have concerns 

about the administration’s loan repayment request, which is 

$178,000 less than current funding and will result in 33 fewer contracts. Before loan repayment can be offered, dedicated and qualified healthcare professionals have to be recruited. A year ago, the 

IHS director commissioned a report on recruitment and retention. 

The Friends strongly believe that if the recruitment process were 

improved, it would have a positive effect on filling vacancies. We 

urge the committee to encourage the service to put into action recommendations from the director’s report. 

IHS also needs a strong network of both clinical and support 

staff. These positions are usually filled by tribal members providing 

a very important cultural link to patients. However, the salaries for 

some of these needed positions are so low that facilities cannot attract sufficient staff. The Friends urges the committee to seek a report on the effect of the outdated 600 series pay scale on employee 

recruitment and retention and what actions need to be taken to finalize a new pay scale. 

The Friends are encouraged by the administration’s request because it will help eliminate health disparities faced by Native 

Americans, but we also encourage the committee to go beyond the 

administration’s proposal to ensure that IHS is fully staffed so that 

it can raise the physical, mental, social, and spiritual health of 

American Indians and Alaska Natives to the highest levels possible. 

The Friends thanks the committee for the opportunity to testify 

today and we look forward to working with you on these issues. 

Thank you again. 

[The statement of Pamela Deters follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Go ahead. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

NATIONAL TRIBAL CONTRACT SUPPORT COST 

COALITION 

WITNESS 

LLOYD B. MILLER 

Mr. MILLER. My name is Lloyd Miller. I am with the Sonosky, 

Chambers Law Firm, but I am here today as counsel to the National Tribal Contract Support Cost Coalition. You have heard a lot 

of testimony today about contract support costs. That issue is relevant because over one-half of the Indian Health Service and over 

one-half of the Bureau of Indian Affairs has been turned over to 

tribal operation under Indian Self-Determination Act contracts. 

Now, I have been practicing law for 33 years. I have been practicing government contract law for over 30 years. I can tell you 

without fear of contradiction that there is no other area in government contract law where the government can underpay a fully-performed contract. It does not exist. But somehow, when it comes to 

Indian affairs, a contract with an Indian tribe is underpaid regularly by the Indian Health Service or by the Bureau of Indian Affairs and there is no recourse. This was not supposed to be the way 

the act would be implemented. 

In 1988, there had been hearings in Congress about how the act 

was being run and these contracts were, at that time, being viewed 

as grants, which would fairly describe the situation I just described. And Congress was frustrated with the process and amended the act to require that these instruments would thereafter be 

contracts, that they would be binding under the Contract Disputes 

Act. Over 400 times in this statute the word ‘‘contract’’ was used. 

They were made enforceable. The secretaries were told they have 

to add the full amount of the contract support cost to the contract. 

And in 2006, the Supreme Court and the Cherokee Nation and 

Shoshone-Paiute Tribes case ruled in favor of the Shoshone-Paiute 

Tribes, and the Cherokee Nation held the Indian Health Service 

liable for underpaying the contracts saying no other government 

contractor would be treated this way, neither should the tribes. 

Now, there are two reasons why we are here. One is that there 

is a line-item cap in the Appropriations Act which you never see 

anywhere else when it comes to government contracts. You do not 

see a line-item cap capping the amount of a contract to supply food 

to our troops in Afghanistan to the ABC Corporation that is providing food on a particular base. You do not see that. But when it 

comes to Indian tribes, there is a cap in the Appropriations Act. 

And in fact the first solution would be to remove that line item. 

Secondly, of course, as Jackie alluded to and testified in support 

of the amount has to be budgeted correctly. And the full amount 

that the Indian Health Service tells us is required is $615 million. 

What is really quite shocking in the Indian Health Service budget 

justification is the statement that at the funding level requested, 

there will be $153 million shortfall in paying the contracts. This, 


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too, is unheard of. You will not find any place in the government 

contracting regime, which is largely Defense Department oriented, 

where an agency comes to the appropriators and says, by the way, 

we are asking you for a dollar amount that will lead to $100 million less than what we owe Boeing or General Electric. It is just 

the opposite. They budget fully and if they end up short, they ask 

for a supplemental appropriation. Never in the history of the Indian Self-Determination Act has the BIA or the IHS ever come to 

Congress and asked for a supplemental appropriation. 

The Indian Self-Determination Act has had the most profound effect on the growth of tribal governments, improvement in Indian 

healthcare, improvement in local employment, providing a base for 

future economic development, and it is true all over the country, 

whether where I hail from now in Alaska or where I came from 

this week and on the Chickasaw Reservation, all across Indian 

Country. The single greatest impediment to the success of that act 

has been the failure to pay contract support costs. That is actually 

a quotation from Senator Inouye in 1987 and it is still a true statement today. 

The National Contract Support Cost Coalition respectfully urges 

that the committee finally end this abuse of contract rights by fully 

funding these contracts. If that is done, I can tell you three things 

that will happen. First of all, the programs that are transferred to 

hospitals and the clinics that are transferred to tribal operation 

will not be cut on account of a contract being awarded to a tribe. 

Remember, if you have a million-dollar clinic being run by the Indian Health Service and a million-dollar clinic run by the tribe next 

door, the tribe has $800,000 to run the clinic. The Indian Health 

Service has $1 million. That is not right. And the only reason that 

is so is because the contract support costs are not being paid in 

full, and therefore, the tribe has to take it out of their programs. 

These costs are fixed costs. 

Removal of the line-item limitation and full budgeting at $615 

million are the solutions to the contract support cost dilemma for 

the Indian Health Service. As for the Bureau of Indian Affairs, Mr. 

Chairman, you are a hero. What you were able to do in the fiscal 

year 2011 process is remarkable and it may be that contract support costs over there are $220 million from BIA contracts ends up 

being short, but if it is, it will be short by $8 or $10 million. We 

have never been that close to full funding since the act was passed 

in 1975, so thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

[The statement of Lloyd B. Miller follows:] 


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TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF URBAN INDIAN HEALTH 

WITNESS 

D’SHANE BARNETT 

Mr. BARNETT. Good afternoon. My name is D’Shane Barnett. I 

am a member of the Sapushgo Hutay Clan of the Mandan Tribe 

of the Mandan, Hidatsa, and Arikara Nation of Fort Berthold, 

North Dakota and I am currently serving as the executive director 

of the National Council of Urban Indian Health, also known as 

NCUIH. On behalf of NCUIH’s 36-member organizations and the 

150,000 urban Indians that our programs serve each year, I would 

like to thank the committee for this opportunity to provide testimony addressing the urban Indian priorities for the fiscal year 

2012 budget. 

This year, NCUIH has five budget recommendations. First, 

NCUIH supports the National Indian Health Board’s budget recommendation that the Indian Health Services funding be increased 

by $735 million. We are encouraged by President Obama’s proposed 

increase of $571 million. However, if the Native American health 

delivery system is to truly fulfill the Federal Government’s trust 

responsibility to native people, the Indian Health Service must be 

fully funded. Second, NCUIH strongly advocates for a $9 million increase to 

the Urban Indian Health program line item to address several 

years of near-flat funding due to the previous administration’s attempts to zero out the program. In order to meet rising need, cost 

inflation, and to remain competitive in leveraging federal dollars 

with other private grants and funding opportunities, Urban Indian 

Health programs must receive an increase to our base funds. 

Third, NCUIH opposes the proposed elimination of the IHS 

Small Grants programs. These competitively awarded grants provide our communities with essential health services that cannot be 

duplicated through other means. I will discuss the significance of 

these grants in just a moment. 

Fourth, NCUIH opposes recent attempts to cut funding for community health centers. Community health centers provide comprehensive, culturally competent, quality primary healthcare services to medically underserved communities and vulnerable populations. Many of our member programs receive a significant portion 

of their funding through these 330 grants. Recent moves to slash 

funding for community health centers by nearly 60 percent would 

have a devastating impact on the most vulnerable members of our 

American Indian communities in urban communities at a time 

when they can least afford it. Already woefully underfunded, further cuts to our health centers would leave countless individuals 

with no other health options. 

Finally, NCUIH opposes the recent moves to eliminate funding 

for the National Indian Health Board’s cooperative agreement. 

NIHB is a vital partner in providing healthcare guidance and education to American Indian and Alaska Native people. 

Regarding the Small Grants programs that I mentioned, the Indian Health Services fiscal year 2012 budget justification calls for 


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the elimination of nine Small Grant programs. These programs 

provide our communities with preventative health services which 

reduce the cost of healthcare in the long run by addressing threats 

to health before they result in the need for more expensive acute 

care. The elimination of these competitive grants has been justified 

on the basis of unsatisfactory results, but the evaluation report 

provided by IHS indicates that many of these programs have been 

successful and can serve as national models for future recipients of 

these grants. 

Furthermore, many of the urban Indian grant recipients will 

have their funding eliminated halfway through the grant period, 

long before any evaluation of their effectiveness has actually been 

conducted. The elimination of these grants amounts to a $1 million 

decrease in funding for Urban Indian Health programs, completely 

eliminating the President’s net proposed increase in funding for 

Urban Indian Health programs over the fiscal year 2011 proposed 

levels. 

These cuts undermine our ability to promote health and 

wellness, to prevent disease, sexual assault, and domestic violence, 

and to care for the elderly, women, and children in our community. 

With Urban Indian Health programs unable to provide these critical services, the burden will fall on the medical system where the 

costs to treat are far more expensive than for providing education 

and information. We need to maintain these grants so that we can 

help provide services to the most vulnerable members of the American Indian and Alaska Native population. 

Regarding NIHB’s cooperative agreement, the National Indian 

Health Board advocates on behalf of all tribal governments and 

American Indians and Alaska Natives in their efforts to provide 

quality healthcare. The IHS budget justification proposes eliminating the NIHB cooperative agreement, which would result in 

marginal savings while making it even more difficult to achieve 

IHS’s stated goal of eliminating health disparities. In order to 

share resources and reduce costs, NCUIH and NIHB have concluded a memorandum of understanding which provides for the 

sharing of time and resources between the two organizations. 

Eliminating support for NIHB will therefore have negative consequences for NCUIH, hindering our efforts to work with a crucial 

partner in providing guidance and education regarding the provision of healthcare to American Indians. 

In conclusion, I would like to thank all of the committee members for this opportunity to testify on the budget priorities for 

urban Indians. Congress has long supported the Urban Indian 

Health program since its inception in 1976 with the original Indian 

Healthcare Improvement Act. While we are encouraged by the bipartisan support we have received during the past appropriations 

cycles, ongoing economic hardship, as well as demographic factors 

have placed an increased demand on our health programs. It is the 

position of NCUIH that the Urban Indian health line item should 

receive an increase, the competitive small grants should continue 

to be made available, that funding to HRSA should be protected 

and maintained, and that our partner, NIHB, should continue to 

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ment. The time has come to seriously invest in the health of all Native Americans. And we thank you for this opportunity. 

[The statement of D’Shane Barnett follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Lloyd, you mentioned in your testimony eliminating the line item of contracts for—would you eliminate the line item entirely or you would eliminate the cap on the 

line item? 

Mr. MILLER. Eliminate the cap on the line item. By taking out 

the capping language, then the contracts would be paid out of the 

lump sum appropriation like all other government contracts are 

paid. In fact, all of the Indian Health Service’s other contracts because they have many other contracts are paid out of their lump 

sum appropriation. And that is the situation that prevailed until 

about the year 2000, 1999 when the cap started coming into play. 

So they came into play because courts had held the Indian Health 

Service liable for failing to pay the contracts. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Are they—the contract support, is it not met because of duration of payment or amount of payment? Do you understand what I am getting at? 

Mr. MILLER. I am not sure. It is not met because of the amount 

of payment. The contract support costs themselves are actually set 

by the government. It is set by a different agency; usually the National Business Center sets the indirect cost rates. Then, the tribes 

have to incur at that rate. If they do not, they owe the money back 

to the government. And these are fixed costs. These are property 

insurance, liability insurance, audit costs, and so forth. So they 

have to be incurred. They are fixed costs. The sum does not change 

from year to year. They are fixed. Pretty much 25 percent of the 

program amount is the amount owed in contract support costs. 

Mr. SIMPSON. There is a saying that, I think I read an article by 

Tom Coburn that said if you are going to get sick in Indian Country, get sick before June—— 

Mr. MILLER. Yeah. 

Mr. SIMPSON [continuing]. Something like that? Interesting. I am 

glad we were able to do something about that this year and we will 

continue to work on it because it is very important. We do have obligations that I think we have to meet. Jacqueline, you mentioned 

the overall appropriation for Interior—— 

Ms. JOHNSON PATA. Um-hum. 

Mr. SIMPSON [continuing]. And you are right. I agree with you 

fully. I think the allocation for the Interior Department has been 

insufficient over a number of years, and then when you look within 

the different bureaus within the Department of Interior, that is an 

amazing little graph where Fish and Wildlife Service has gone up 

30 percent in the last eight years, the National Park Service, 28 

percent or so, and BIA is down there at 8 percent. In the last couple of years, we have done a pretty good job of trying to catch up, 

but that means it must have been really ugly prior to that. 

Ms. JOHNSON PATA. We do have some other graphs that we 

would be glad to share with you where we have charted out like 

just cost-of-living increases and what it has looked like for, you 

know, the last decade or so for BIA and Indian funding I think 

would be very helpful for you to see. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Good. Well, I appreciate it. Dr. Neary, now, something I know something about having been a dentist in the real 

world. Four hundred percent higher decay rate in Native American 

tribes than in the general population? 


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Mr. NEARY. Yes, that is correct. 

Mr. SIMPSON. What does the research show on that? Why is that? 

I mean the molecular makeup of the enamel has got to be fairly 

similar, is it not? 

Mr. NEARY. It is not. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Really? 

Mr. NEARY. The early childhood caries studies—there were two 

symposia because the first one was so confusing that everybody 

had to take a hard look at it. But there is a congenital defect in 

the enamel of many Native American children. It is probably acquired in the third trimester of pregnancy or immediately after 

birth. So they have increased enamel hypoplasia. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Really? 

Mr. NEARY. It is a common occurrence in malnourished populations, fetal trauma, maybe even birth trauma, so it affects the development of incisors and first molars typically, you know, which 

primary teeth would be developing at that time. You take those 

predisposing factors, the hypoplastic enamel becomes a culture medium for strep mutans, so they start growing increased numbers of 

known cariogenic pathogens. Once the established colonies are 

formed, they start to dominate, so you get a much higher incidence 

of strep mutans in these children who are affected than you do in 

the general population. What you superimpose on that, then, is dietary factors and things. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Right. 

Mr. NEARY. Aside from native populations, the military is finding 

that non-Indian caries-resistant U.S. troops who go to the desert in 

Iraq consuming a great deal of Dr. Pepper and Mountain Dew in 

particular, so they are 20-year-olds who were caries-resistant for 

their whole lives and one-year deployment in Iraq they start getting tooth decay. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Really? 

Mr. NEARY. So you have the dietary thing, increased consumption of sugar beverages because you are in desert environment superimposed on this high susceptibility which is perinatally acquired—probably—susceptibility. So there is more to it than just 

negligence or, you know, careless maintenance. 

Mr. SIMPSON. That may be more than any of you want to know 

about dental care, but I find it kind of interesting because I happen 

to know a little bit about it. But thank you for the work that the 

ADA does in trying to make sure that Indians have access to dentists. And that is, as we have talked about in the past, a problem 

on many reservations and particularly in Alaska, as Don and I 

have talked about, trying to get dentists out to some of these tribes 

that are in very, very, very remote places is sometimes very difficult. And I know the ADA has worked hard to make sure that we 

have qualified and quality dentists out in those areas, and we will 

continue to work with the ADA. But I appreciate the work that the 

Association has done in trying to address that problem. 

Mr. NEARY. Thank you very much. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you all for your testimony. I appreciate it 

very much. Now, we have the Honorable Don Young here and Jerry 

Isaac, Ted Mala, and Andy Teuber. Is it like tuber? 

Mr. TEUBER. Yes. 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Well, that is like an Idaho spud. We call them tubers. This is what we will call the Alaska panel. 

Mr. YOUNG. Mr. Chairman, thank you. And it is my honor to introduce the three witnesses who will be here today. First, we have 

Jerry Isaac, President of the Tanana Chiefs. The Tanana Chiefs 

Conference is a traditional tribal consortium of 42 villages. President Isaac has been active in the Tanana’s tribal and community 

affairs, served as the president Tanana Tribal Council from 1980 

until he was elected as TCC president in 2006. Jerry Isaac was 

born and raised traditionally by a family teaching him essentials 

in culture and language in Tanacross, Alaska, which also produced 

some of the finest-looking ladies in the country, too. 

Dr. Ted Mala, Director of Tribal Relations, Traditional Healing 

Clinic, Southcentral Alaska; Southcentral Foundation. Southcentral 

is an Alaska Native Health Consortium that serves the Anchorage 

area as well as 55 villages. Dr. Mala received his Doctor of Medicine and Surgery (MD) from the Autonomous University of Guadalajara in 1976, has a Master’s Degree in Public Health from Harvard University in 1980. He actively pursued his career in public 

health and health administration both in Alaska, as well as internationally in the circumpolar countries. Dr. Mala is an Alaska Native Inupiat Eskimo enrolled in the Village of Buckland, as well as 

the Northwest Arctic Native Association. 

We now have Andy Teuber, Chairman and President of Alaska 

Native Tribal Consortium. The consortium serves 138,000 Alaska 

Natives and American Indians residing in Alaska through the partnership in Alaska Native Medical Center, Alaska’s Level II Trauma 

Center. The Consortium employs nearly 2,000 people and operates 

over $400 million in annual resources to deliver care as well are 

rural infrastructure development and engineering. And he serves 

as the president and CEO of Kodiak Area Native Association. 

Mr. Chairman, may I say this is one of the finer groups of people 

representing health in Alaska. We have made great progress. We 

have a lot further to go. And Mr. Chairman, may I say, thank you, 

too, for your work on the 2011 budget and our work for American 

Indians and Alaska Natives I think is crucially important. You 

have a great challenge ahead of you but I will back you up anywhere you can when it comes to trying to make sure health is provided to the American Indian and the Alaska Native because I 

think it is crucial. They do a good job. We can do a little better job 

with a little more understanding of what their intent is. So Mr. 

Chairman, with that, you have the panel. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Well, thank you, Don. There is no more serious of 

an advocate for Native Americans, Indians, both in the lower 48 

and Alaska than Don Young. And it has been my pleasure to work 

with you over the years to try to address some of those issues, and 

he is the one that keeps telling me we have responsibilities. We 

have treaty responsibilities and everything else. And a great Nation does not ignore those, so that is why I think we have done 

some of the things that we have been able to do in this last health 

bill. So thank you, Don. I appreciate it. 


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TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

TANANA CHIEFS CONFERENCE 

WITNESS 

JERRY ISAAC 

Mr. ISAAC. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. Thank you for the honor of presenting testimony today. I 

also would like to thank Congressman Young for the introduction. 

I appreciate that. 

As Congressman Young has introduced me, my name is Jerry 

Isaac and I am the president of the Tanana Chiefs Conference. The 

Tanana Chiefs Conference in an intertribal consortium of 42 Alaska Native Tribes located in the interior of Alaska. Our tribes occupy a largely road-less area of 235,000 square miles stretching 

from Fairbanks clear up to the Brooks Range and over the Canadian border. Our area is almost the size of Texas. Our tribes have 

authorized TCC to contract with the Bureau of Indian Affairs and 

with the Indian Health Services to operate their large number of 

federal programs and services for our tribal members. TCC does 

this under the authority of the Indian Self-Determination Act, contracting to operate federal programs which IHS and the BIA would 

otherwise operate for our tribes. We honor our bargain with the 

government by operating these federal programs and facilities year 

in and year out, but the government does not keep its bargain. 

Specifically, the Indian Health Services does not honor its duty 

under our contracts to reimburse the fixed contract support costs 

that we incur in carrying out these contracts for the government. 

We work for so many tribes in such a high-cost environment, but 

every year the government shorts us by several million dollars in 

fully audited fixed costs. 

The result is that we must cut into our programs to make up for 

the IHS’s contract support costs shortfalls. In fact, even after our 

shortfall was reduced in fiscal year 2010 thanks to the President’s 

and the committee’s commitment to addressing this problem, IHS 

still left TCC short by $3.2 million. That is $3.2 million that we 

had to take out of the federal healthcare programs that we operated. That is $3.2 million worth of desperately needed and already 

underfunded healthcare services that our tribal members had to go 

without. That is $3.2 million that came out of our programs but not 

out of the IHS’s bureaucracy or agency-operated programs, and this 

year, IHS will fail to pay us another $3.2 million. For us, $3.2 million could translate into 70 positions because we strive to leverage 

each dollar with another dollar from Medicare, Medicaid, or private 

insurance. This is an enormous amount of healthcare employment 

and services that we must cut from our IHS contract just to make 

up for the IHS’s failure to pay us what it owes us. 

IHS should not be able to short a contract that it has awarded 

and that we have performed. And the Agency should not be able 

to hide behind appropriations-backed language as an excuse for not 

honoring its contracts. It pays other contracts. It should pay our 

contracts, too. 

TCC asks that the committee finally complete the work it began 

in fiscal year 2010 and clear the way toward full payment of conVerDate Mar 15 2010 04:23 Jun 30, 2011 Jkt 066982 PO 00000 Frm 00486 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A982P2.XXX A982P2

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tracts we operate for IHS. The limitations in the appropriations 

acts should be removed and $615 million should be budgeted for 

this activity. In this way, these IHS contracts will at long last be 

paid in full, just as the committee’s work this year will permit the 

BIA in 2011 to pay its contracts in full for the first time in 15 

years. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to present testimony today on the contract support cost crisis facing tribes and 

tribal organizations that contract to operate federal facilities and 

programs for the IHS and the BIA. 

[The statement of Jerry Isaac follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Go ahead. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

SOUTHCENTRAL FOUNDATION 

WITNESS 

TED MALA 

Dr. MALA. Hello. My name is Ted Mala. Thank you. I am an 

Alaska Native and citizen, past president of the Association of 

American Indian Physicians, and served as commissioner of health 

for Governor Hickel on his cabinet. Today, I come before you as director of tribal relations for Southcentral Foundation, as well as director of the Traditional Healing Clinic. And I want to thank you 

both for your service. You guys are just legends and we really appreciate you. 

Southcentral Foundation is the lead tribal organization in 

southcentral Alaska. We provide a full range of medical, dental, optometric, behavioral health and substance abuse to 45,000 people, 

both Alaska Native and American Indians living in Anchorage, the 

Matanuska-Susitna Borough, and a number of villages nearby. We 

also serve 13,000 Alaska Native people in 55 villages, and it is all 

over an area of 100,000 square miles. So I know you are looking 

at the map so you can relate. We employ 1,400 people to do this. 

The core of our service delivery system is our self-governance contract with Indian Health Service. In fact, we are one of the largest 

tribal health contractors in the country, along with Oklahoma and 

Navajo. 

We are here today because the government has repeatedly broken its contract to Southcentral. It has failed to pay us the contract 

support costs, which our contract and the law dictates are supposed 

to be paid in full. You know this very well. We just add our voice 

to the others saying that we have the same problem. We discussed 

this issue with Congress and were told the problem was the administration. We go to the administration and they tell us Congress did 

not appropriate enough. And when you go to the Agency, they say 

that yes, it is very important but they have other competing needs. 

So I am sure it sounds familiar. 

So at Southcentral, we do not understand a lot of the fingerpointing because to us a contract is a contract and a contract is not 

a matter of balancing priorities but doing what the contract says 

to do. Besides the competing priorities as a false issue, when IHS 

underpays our IHS contract, we are forced to cut programs and the 

administration wants to protect them. We have to cut mental 

health and substance abuse, as well as dental, optometry. It is a 

zero-sum game. 

The fact is that the budget is balanced by cutting only funds that 

go to tribally-administered parts of the IHS system. When that 

happens, Congress and the administration discriminate against 

and punish the very part of the system that has proven most effective in delivering healthcare. So at SCF we do not ask to be treated 

any differently or any better than part of IHS, but we do not want 

to be treated worse either. So for the first time in many years, we 


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are hopeful. It is clear that Congress and the administration now 

understand that an underpaid dollar in contract support costs 

means a $1 reduction in tribal healthcare. Congress and the administration understand that these are contracts that really have 

to be paid. Congress especially seems to appreciate that 100 percent of every contract support cost dollar goes right into tribal 

health and not one penny of it goes into the federal bureaucracy. 

We are hopeful today for the first time in over a decade. Last 

year’s SCF’s shortfall was substantially reduced. As a result, SCF 

opened 97 new positions to fill multiple healthcare provider teams 

and support staff. These positions provide covered services. We are 

billing anywhere we can, Medicaid, Medicare, private insurers, and 

we hope that our revenues will allow us to bring on 100 more additional positions. 

In short, we are proving every day that reducing contract support 

cost shortfall—that contract health is a sound investment, both in 

tribal employment and tribal health services. 

Finally, in Congress in 2012, once the government’s contract support costs, if Congress funds and closes that, we will be able to fill 

at least 100 positions. I am sure it is true across America. So as 

Congress was able to eliminate the stark BIA shortfalls as part of 

2011 budget compromise, we ask today that Congress in fiscal year 

2012 finally end all of the IHS support cost shortfalls that have 

plagued us for over 15 years. Thank you for the privilege of testifying on behalf of Southcentral Foundation and the 58,000 Native 

Americans we serve. Mr. Chairman and Congressman Young, you 

are legends. Thank you. 

[The statement of Ted Mala follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Andy. 

TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2011. 

ALASKA NATIVE TRIBAL HEALTH CONSORTIUM 

WITNESS 

ANDY TEUBER 

Mr. TEUBER. Thank you. Good afternoon, Chairman Simpson. My 

name is Andy Teuber. Thank you, Congressman Young, for the 

very flattering introduction. I am the president and chairman of 

the Alaska Native Tribal Health Consortium, which serves 138,000 

Alaska Natives and American Indians across the great State of 

Alaska, a state which comprises 650,000 square miles and has a 

population of only 700,000 people, 20 percent of which are the Alaska Natives and American Indians that we serve in the Alaska Native Tribal Health Consortium. 

I also have the distinct pleasure to serve as the president and 

CEO of the Kodiak Area Native Association, which delivers primary and social services to the population of Kodiak Island in the 

Gulf of Alaska. And in that capacity I deliver services to seven of 

the communities around Kodiak. If you look at the State of Alaska, 

you can see, it kind of looks like this here. Kodiak is going to be 

right down here in the Gulf. It is nice to have a Congressman to 

serve as your assistant. Yes, thank you, Congressman. It is, in fact, 

the largest island in the United States by coastline and second to 

the large island of Hawaii, State of Hawaii, for distance or area. 

What I was going to talk about today, and I do not want to articulate anything that has already been said better than I can say 

it in what Mr. Lloyd Miller has said for contract support costs and 

what Dr. Matt Neary has said on behalf of the ADA, but I did want 

to talk about a couple of issues that have not been addressed yet. 

And the first one is IHS Village Built Lease program. It is the first 

issue that I want to bring to the chairman’s attention today. 

And the foundation of the Alaska Native Tribal Health system is 

kind of built on the VBC program or the Village Built Clinic Lease 

program. The VBC program provides funding for rent, utilities, insurance, janitorial, maintenance costs, healthcare facilities 

throughout rural Alaska. Despite an increase in the number and 

size of clinics throughout Alaska and the rapidly increasing costs 

of operating these clinics, the funding for the VBC lease program 

has barely increased since 1996. Current funding for leases covers 

less than 60 percent of the costs of operating these clinics. 

Without additional funding, the VBC lease program, Alaska villages will be forced to further reduce clinic operations for primary, 

tertiary care for dental services and behavior health services in and 

around all of our rural communities. And they will be forced to 

defer long-term maintenance and improvement projects. This situation not only reduces healthcare availability in villages. It also 

threatens nearly $200 million worth of rural infrastructure in the 

state that the Federal Government has already funded. 

So the solutions that I propose today are, number one, to have 

the VBC lease program listed as a separate line item in the IHS 


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budget. And number two, provide an increase of $7 million in funding for the VBC lease program to be added in the current program 

base for the 2012 budget. 

This funding is needed to sustain the VBC lease program and 

cover the expected operating cost in fiscal year 2012 and to establish funding for the long-term maintenance and improvement, and 

without this funding, many Alaska villages will not be able to continue supporting local clinics, which will lead to serious negative 

consequences for the health and safety of Alaska Native people. 

As I stated earlier, Mr. Miller’s testimony was informative for 

me. I am certain that it was for the committee as well. And the 

information that Dr. Neary had provided on the dental health for 

American Indian and Alaska Native people, I did want to touch on 

the oral health as it relates to the Dental Health Aid Therapy program in Alaska. And with just a minute, Indian Country—in Alaska in particular—faces considerable oral health disparities, and 

American Indians and Alaska Natives, especially children, continue 

to be plagued by oral health disparities. Alaska Native children 

suffer a dental caries rate two-and-a-half times the national average and for American Indian and Alaska Native children ages two 

to four, the rate of tooth decay is five times higher than the U.S. 

average. An astonishing 79 percent of Alaska Native and American 

Indian children ages two to five have tooth decay, 60 percent of 

which are severe cavities. 

With that, on behalf of the Alaska Native Tribal Health Consortium and the Kodiak Area Native Association, I want to thank the 

chairman for the time and the opportunity to testify here today. 

Thanks to Congressman Young, and I will look forward to providing any additional information requested by the committee. 

[The statement of Andy Teuber follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. I appreciate all of your testimony. 

Alaska is a big country, is it not? 

Mr. TEUBER. It is. 

Mr. SIMPSON. That is one of the places I have never been and always wanted to go, and Don said I cannot go until he says it is 

okay. So he has invited me up there a few times and we were talking earlier with my staff and some other people about, you know, 

you have got some beautiful national parks, you have got some 

issues with Alaska Natives and healthcare and other things, and 

we need to get up there and see some of that. 

Mr. YOUNG. And Mr. Chairman, you are definitely invited and 

we could work on that with you and really see the area without 

working too hard but see the people in Alaska. I can say only one 

other thing as a guideline. You brought up the point about the 

level of funding under the Department of Interior, and if you want 

to spend money on people, take it out of the parks and spend it on 

the people. And I am dead serious. Do you see the staffing and you 

see the—and the Forest Service, I do not know if you handle the 

Forest Service or not—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. We do. 

Mr. YOUNG [continuing]. Well, they have got the same thing. I 

was in Ketchikan the other day. There are 27 brand new trucks sitting there. There are three boats with six motors sitting there. 

There are 28 kayaks and we are not cutting any trees in southeast 

Alaska. And the agencies that are being funded are not for people. 

And I am not saying the agencies are not people themselves—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. Yeah. 

Mr. YOUNG [continuing]. But the money should be spent, especially in healthcare, for what I think is a commitment. This was 

done many years ago under treaty and I do think they own it and 

they deserve it, and this contracting concept that Mr. Miller and 

other people have talked about is, to me, a disgrace. It is a contract 

with the government, and if there is a shortage of money, I know 

where we can find it. We will not take the parks away, but we do 

not need Taj Mahals. We do not need boats on the river that they 

have. We do not need all of the fancy quarters that they live in. 

We need to take care of the people. That is what I am asking. 

Mr. SIMPSON. There is one area you can take it away. 

Mr. YOUNG. And Mr. Chairman, I am dead serious about it and 

I hope you will listen to me very carefully and read the documents—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. I am listening to you. 

Mr. YOUNG. All right. I appreciate it. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I appreciate it. I was surprised, actually, when we 

learned that half of the tribes in America are located in Alaska, I 

was kind of shocked when I heard that, 260 some odd or something? 

Mr. YOUNG. Two hundred twenty-nine. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Two hundred twenty-nine out of the 500 or so that 

we have. So it is stunning. But I do need to get up there and see 

it. And you have unique problems because of the size of Alaska and 

the remoteness of it. And it is issues, as I said earlier, that we have 

tried to work out with the ADA and others to try to make sure that 

you have access to dentists and those types of things. And it is an 


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issue that I know that the ADA takes very seriously in trying to 

make sure that, you know, it is remote. So anyway, I look forward 

to coming up there and seeing what you do and as we have heard 

today in this testimony that, you know, Don has told me for the 

12 years I have been here that we have responsibilities, tribal responsibilities, and you are right, we need to maintain those things. 

And that is why in the CR we cut some areas that were pretty 

tough to cut but we went in and did it so that we did not have to 

cut Indian Health Services or some of the other things. And if you 

talk to Dr. Rubidoux at Indian Health Services, she was showing 

me the difference in what we spend per person in Indian Country 

for healthcare versus what the average American gets and it is 

substantially different. If you want to see poverty in this country, 

go out to an Indian reservation or go to some of the villages up in 

Alaska. We have got to address that, and I will tell you this committee is committed to addressing it. 

So I appreciate you all being here today and thank you for your 

testimony and coming down to beautiful Washington, D.C., from 

that ugly Alaska up there. Thank you. 


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WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

TESTIMONY OF MEMBERS OF CONGRESS AND OTHER 

INTERESTED INDIVIDUALS AND ORGANIZATIONS 

PUBLIC WITNESSES—NATIVE AMERICANS 

Mr. COLE. Okay. We will go ahead and open proceedings, and we 

will invite our witnesses up in a group of panels, so if we could 

have Chairman Bear, Chairman Melendez, Chairman Small, Chairman Joseph, and then Representative Richardson will be joining us 

when she arrives at the table, as she has got things to tell us as 

well. 

Probably the easiest thing once you get settled is, we will just 

start here and work our way across. Each person has got of course 

about 5 minutes and then we will have time after that to ask questions or comments from the members. If you would, as you begin 

your testimony, if you would just simply introduce yourself so that 

we have got that clearly for the record. That would be extremely 

helpful. And we can begin whenever you want to start to testify. 

Press the button. If it is red, it is on. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

SHOSHONE-PAIUTE TRIBES OF THE DUCK VALLEY 

INDIAN RESERVATION 

WITNESS 

ROBERT BEAR, CHAIRMAN 

Mr. BEAR. Thank you for that. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and 

everyone here today. I just want to thank you for giving me this 

opportunity. 

First of all, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, my 

name is Robert Bear. I am the Chairman of the Shoshone-Paiute 

Tribes of the Duck Valley Indian Reservation. I asked to testify 

today so that I could talk about the crisis in unfunded contract 

payments that the Indian Health Service and the Bureau of Indian 

Affairs owe my tribe under our self-governance contracts. From the 

very beginning, these agencies have broken their contract obligations to my tribe. Let me just talk about IHS. 

In 1995, my tribe negotiated a contract with IHS to operate the 

government’s hospital in Owyhee. The contract required IHS to pay 

us $1.7 each year in fixed contract support costs. These were our 

fixed costs that we had to incur by law to run this federal contract. 

Think of the costs as mandates to do things like carry insurance, 

complete federally required audits, to do our daily accounting and 

similar fixed costs. We did not set those costs. Some were set by 

IHS and the rest were set by the Interior Department, all based 


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on our annual audit report, but IHS never paid us a dime, not in 

1996 and not in 1997. 

What happened? Since those costs that IHS failed to pay were 

our fixed costs, we had no choice but to reduce hospital operations 

and hospital employment in order to pay those costs and make up 

for the shortfall. The next thing we knew, the Joint Commission on 

Accreditation of Hospital Organizations came in and told us that 

it was considering revoking our certification to operate. Why? Because we had so many vacancies in critical positions. So eventually 

we went to court, and 10 years later in 2005, we were vindicated 

by a Supreme Court decision in the case known as Cherokee Nation and the Shoshone-Paiute Tribes v. Leavitt. The court said it 

was illegal for IHS to underpay us and the court awarded my tribe 

damages against IHS. 

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, this should have 

never happened. These are government contracts and the government should have kept its word. In fact, the very reason why we 

won the Supreme Court case is because the court ruled unanimously that the government has no more right to break a contract 

with an Indian tribe than it has to break a contract with anyone 

else. Yet here we are years later and IHS is again failing to pay 

us our contract amounts. I do not understand how this is possible. 

Every other federal contractor gets paid in full yet we do not. 

Is it because we are an Indian tribe? The Supreme Court already 

said that shocking excuse was no excuse at all. Is it because our 

appropriation act now limits how much the agency will pay tribal 

contractors? There never used to be a limit and contract payments 

just came out of the agency’s general appropriation. If there is such 

a limit, why not eliminate it? Why not go back to the system where 

the agency pays us out of its general appropriations just like all 

other government contractors. 

The line item for contract support costs was never put into law 

to protect the tribes and our contracts. It was put into law to protect the agency. I say take it out. Why? Because after losing in the 

Supreme Court, IHS still comes here and asks for protection to underpay its federal contracts with Indian tribes, next year by about 

$153 million including protection to underpay my tribe about 

$615,000. That is just not right. The law should not protect an 

agency when it underpays a fully performed contract. 

We are doing our part by providing health care in the government’s Owyhee hospital. Now the government must do its part to 

pay us in full for the work that we are doing. The government 

should not come her and ask permission to force us to reduce these 

contracted health programs and contracted positions so that the 

government can get away with not paying us. 

As for the BIA, I cannot offer enough thanks to this committee 

and to you, Mr. Chairman, for last month’s action in raising the 

BIA level of contract payments. At long last, the BIA will now be 

able to fully pay its contract obligations to my tribe, to the other 

tribes in Idaho and to the other tribes across the country. This 

funding level must not roll back in 2012. But when it comes to 

IHS, much more needs to be done. 

I do applaud the President for recommending a very significant 

increase in the IHS contract support cost line, but until these IHS 


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contracts are fully paid just like all other government contracts, 

justice will not have been done. 

Thank you for the opportunity for me to testify today. 

[The statement of Robert Bear follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you for your testimony. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

FORT HALL BUSINESS COUNCIL, SHOSHONE-BANNOCK 

TRIBES 

WITNESS 

NATHAN SMALL, CHAIRMAN 

Mr. SMALL. Good morning, Chairman Simpson and Congressman 

Cole. I would like to thank you for the opportunity to testify this 

morning. My name is Nathan Small. I serve as Chairman of the 

Fort Hall Business Council, the governing body of the ShoshoneBannock Tribes in southeastern Idaho. Our community faces tremendous needs in a variety of areas but I am here to speak on behalf of the children of Fort Hall Reservation. 

Native American youth are among the most vulnerable groups in 

America. They suffer the highest dropout rates in the Nation, and 

tragically, also suffer the highest rates of suicide. There are two 

reasons for the suffering: one, a broken juvenile justice system, and 

two, an underfunded Indian education system. Juvenile justice in 

Indian Country like the broader tribal justice system has been crippled by federal laws and court decisions handed by Washington, 

D.C., for more than a century. Our tribe endures many of the same 

public concerns that plague other tribes. However, we face the 

added pressure of dealing with Public Law 280. 

In 1963, the State of Idaho without the consent of the ShoshoneBannock Tribes assumed jurisdiction over juvenile crimes on the 

Fort Hall Reservation, and for almost 50 years, the state has ignored its responsibility under Public Law 280 and our youth in our 

community have suffered as a result. With no help at the state 

level and little help at the federal level, the Shoshone-Bannock 

Tribes took matters into its own hands. Last year, we completed 

construction of a new criminal justice center which houses our police department, courts and an adult-juvenile corrections center. 

Basically this is what it looks like right now, and if you would like, 

we can get a copy of this for you to look at later on. 

We built that juvenile center with a vision of having it serve as 

a regional juvenile center. Detention is often the final opportunity 

at turning around the life of a young person. As a result, they deserve our best efforts. This means providing strong education, mental health and substance treatment and services to our youth in 

custody. However, the BIA budget proposes elimination of the juvenile educational funding and the BIA has refused our request to 

use correction program funding to provide these services to our juveniles. 

To address these critical needs, I am making two requests. Neither request will cost the taxpayer additional money but will permit commonsense use of existing funds and allow tribes to stretch 

existing dollars where they are needed. First, I ask you to direct 

the Administration to designate our juvenile center as a region correction center, and second, I ask that you direct the BIA to authorize the use of correction program funding for education and mental 


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health services to tribal youth in custody. As I just noted, in spite 

of the shortfalls in the education of Indian juveniles, the President’s budget would eliminate the educational services to Indian 

youth in custody. I urge you to reject the President’s proposed 

elimination of this program and instead increase funding for juvenile education. 

I have one final request in the area of tribal justice, and that is 

to urge you to work with Chairman Frank Wolf’s Commerce, Justice and Science subcommittee to fully fund programs reauthorized 

in the Tribal Law and Order Act of 2010 at the requested levels 

in the fiscal year 2012 Interior and Justice Department budgets. 

I will now briefly discuss some concerns about educating our 

young people. The United States in hundreds of treaties including 

the Four Bridges Treaty of 1868 promised to provide for the education of Indian youth as well as other services and in return taking hundreds of millions of acres of our tribal homeland. Sadly, 

these promises have not been kept and again our children in our 

community suffer as a result. Unhappy with the level of education 

provided in the United States, the Shoshone-Bannock Tribes contracted to operate the Shoshone-Bannock Junior and Senior High 

School locally. However, in order to make this effort work, we rely 

on tribal grant support costs. These programs provide administrative costs that would be incurred by the BIA and the Federal Government continue to provide direct education services. The fiscal 

year 2012 budget requests flat funding for school support costs, 

which would meet less than two-thirds of the tribal needs. I ask 

that the tribal support costs be funded at $72.3 million to meet 100 

percent of the need. Also, with regard to Indian education this 

school year, we added a 6th-grade program to our tribal school. 

This 6th-grade program fills a gap in educational services on the 

reservation and will provide students with a consistent learning environment. 

Despite this need, the BIA has refused our request to use school 

support cost funding for our new 6th grade. To overcome this bureaucratic barrier, I would ask you to include report language to 

direct the BIA to permit tribal grant support cost funding to be 

used for our expansion to the 6th grade and include 6th-grade students in our annual funding formula. 

Finally, my written testimony provides additional details for a 

request to provide funding for a dormitory to provide our homeless 

children stable housing, meals on campus and an opportunity to 

learn and a chance at a brighter future. 

Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you for your recognition of the 

Federal Government’s treaty obligations to the Indian tribes and 

your efforts to hold tribal programs harmless as Congress works to 

bring the federal deficit under control. As you know, the need to 

meet these solemn obligations is especially critical for our Native 

youth, and again, thank you for this opportunity to testify. 

[The statement of Nathan Small follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you. 

I see we have been joined by Representative Richardson. Would 

you like to join us at the table? And I do not know what your 

schedule is—just grab that chair right there, that would be great— 

and you may need to testify, you may have a committee meeting 

or something, and so we would be happy to take your testimony 

whenever you would like to deliver it. We are moving in order, but 

again, I recognize you may have a committee to get to, so we are 

delighted to have you here. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

NATIVE AMERICAN ISSUES 

WITNESS 

HON. LAURA RICHARDSON, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM 

THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 

Ms. RICHARDSON. First of all, good morning. Good morning to all 

of you. Thank you for having me, allowing me to be here to share 

my priorities and thoughts within the Native Americans and Alaska Natives in this country. 

I am a member of the Native American Caucus and I represent 

the 37th Congressional district in California. California is home to 

over 100 federally recognized tribes, so being a member of this community and providing the support is something we all believe in, 

but in California in particular, that is my commitment. 

Particularly, I want to cover four areas: health, education, transportation and economic development. In the 111th Congress, we 

permanently reauthorized the Indian Health Care Improvement 

Act, and while this was a step in the right direction, we still have 

a responsibility to ensure that there is adequate funding for the Indian Health Service’s section. 

I want to highlight a few statistics that stick out in my mind. 

American Indians, Alaska Natives have the lowest life expectancy 

across all races in the United States. Diabetes in particular has a 

high rate for Native Americans and Alaska Natives, 177 percent 

higher than the general U.S. population. Now, you on these committees know these statistics far better than I do, and I respect 

that, but I think you need to know that I lend my full support as 

you approach these issues and need members to step up to add to 

that voice. 

Years of underfunding of Indian health care have led to overcrowded facilities, outdated facilities and equipment and delayed 

maintenance of facilities that are on average over 30 years. The Indian Health Service reports that many Indian health facilities use 

equipment that is over twice its useful lifespan. So when we consider this, I support President Obama’s fiscal year 2012 budget request which increases funding for the Indian Health Service by 

14.1 percent. 

Education—education in our Native American communities is 

another crucial area that needs a substantial investment. There 

was a report done in February 2010, a study by the Civil Rights 

Project of the UCLA Graduate School of Education and Informal 

Studies. Now, I am a graduate of both UCLA and USC so I watch 


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these studies carefully. And in that study, they found that less 

than 50 percent of American Indian and Alaska Native students 

graduated from high school. That is lagging from our national average of 69 percent. So when we consider this, the Indian school 

equalization formula is the primary source of funding that we have 

for the elementary and secondary schools, and I urge when we look 

at how it is being very severely underfunded in fiscal year 2009 

and 2010, it is something that warrants our attention. I also support the Johnson-O’Malley Act, the act that was implemented in 

1934 to provide the supplemental funding. 

Transportation—I serve on the Transportation Committee and 

the Homeland Security Committee, and when you look at the Bureau of Indian schools, they often incur significant costs in transporting students. Many have to travel from reservations. Buses 

travel very long routes on unpaved roads, and it is critical that 

there is adequate funding. So therefore with the increasing fuel 

costs, the President’s fiscal year 2012 budget slightly reduces funding for this program over the 2010 levels, and I think certainly that 

should be preserved or increased. 

And then finally, my last section, which is economic development 

and job training. In California, although we have had very successful gaming places in my area surrounding and it has served as an 

excellent opportunity for many people to work, not just working in 

the general casino area but working as accountants, working in 

many aspects of the business, but unfortunately, not all areas have 

the ability to have those types of businesses or have not grown to 

that point as of yet. So it is important that we invest and we assist 

in making sure that there is adequate job training available for everyone. So when we look at the division of capital investment within the Office of Indian Energy and Economic Development that 

overseas the Indian loan guarantee program, this program enables 

eligible borrowers for Indian businesses to be able to get money 

that they otherwise would not receive. Unfortunately, the President’s fiscal year 2012 budget cuts this program by $5.1 million, 

and I would not be supportive of that. 

As I close, there is a national ironworkers training program. I 

have a very strong relationship with the ironworkers in my district. 

This is a program that has not been funded for 2011 or 2012. It 

was only seeking $750,000. This program was actually an 11-week 

program where after that program the candidates would be able to 

participate in the apprenticeship program and go on and have a 

very decent job, so I would urge you to consider that. 

And lastly, when you look at the Carcier—— 

Mr. COLE. Carcieri. 

Ms. RICHARDSON. Thank you. Versus Salazar—— 

Mr. COLE. We are looking at it. 

Ms. RICHARDSON. I am sure you are. 

Mr. COLE. We are very familiar here. 

Ms. RICHARDSON. Well, I look forward to standing with you and 

helping in that area as well. 

So thank you for the opportunity to speak. Thank you for sitting 

here with my brothers and I am sure sisters as well in the audience and just look forward to counting on my help. Even though 


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I have not had an opportunity to serve on your committee, count 

me as a full committed one to help on your issues. 

[The statement of Laura Richardson follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you very much. Thank you for your testimony. 

You are free to go, or you are free to stay. We will have questions. 

We have two more sets of testimony, so it is up to you. Again, your 

schedule is—— 

Ms. RICHARDSON. Unfortunately, I have two committees at the 

exact same time. 

Mr. COLE. I assumed that was going to be the case, but thank 

you very much for coming. I appreciate it. 

Ms. RICHARDSON. Thank you, sir, and thank you, gentlemen. 

Mr. COLE. Again, thanks for your indulgence for allowing the 

Congresswoman to make her points, so if we can, we will just resume regular order. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

RENO-SPARKS INDIAN COLONY TRIBAL COUNCIL 

WITNESS 

ARLAN MELENDEZ, CHAIRMAN 

Mr. MELENDEZ. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and committee 

members. My name is Arlan Melendez. I am Tribal Chairman of 

the Reno-Sparks Indian Colony, Washoe, Paiute and Shoshone people, located in Reno, Nevada. I am also the Vice President of both 

the Indian Health Board in Nevada and also the Intertribal Council in Nevada, which are the 27 tribes in the State of Nevada. 

First, I want to thank Chairman Simpson and Mr. Cole for listening to us this morning, and I am very appreciative of Mr. Simpson’s comments that were circulated a few months ago indicating 

the importance of protecting the funding for the programs from the 

budget cuts. 

Today I wish to address—first of all, I also want to introduce our 

consultant here in D.C., Mr. George Waters, who is in the audience, and George also said not to mention the Nevada-Boise State 

game. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Yeah, there might be some funding problems there. 

Mr. COLE. You are clearly very well represented. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Yes, I was going to say, he is from Oklahoma, you 

know, and we did have a problem with Oklahoma. 

Mr. COLE. You know, there is an old saying in Oklahoma: it is 

hard to be humble when you are a Sooner. Unfortunately, not when 

I talk to my chairman, who delivers regular doses of humility on 

what is now, I must say, a five-year-old game. 

Mr. MELENDEZ. Well, today, I wish to address three main topics 

here. First of all, Contract Health Service and also an increasing 

problem with pain management, and I will talk about that, and 

also, the third topic is the need for detention facilities in the State 

of Nevada. 

Because my tribe consists of approximately 1,100 tribal members 

and we are one of the few urban reservations in the country, we 

not only provide health care to our tribal members but we have to 

comply with the Indian Health Service open-door policy requiring 

us to provide service to any federally recognized Indian person. The 


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urban Indian population in proximity to our health center is approximately 8,000 and growing. 

Four years ago, my tribe constructed a new health center at our 

own expense due to the fact that we could not wait any longer for 

the Indian Health Service to replace our old, dilapidated facility. 

Since then, our caseload has really grown. There are 27 tribes and 

bands, 16 federally recognized tribes in the State of Nevada, and 

we are part of the Phoenix area. The other area tribes are from Arizona and Utah. There are also two main service units in the State 

of Nevada, the western Nevada service unit and the eastern Nevada, and there is also field station in southern Nevada. We are 

part of the Schurz service unit along with six other tribes. Schurz, 

Nevada, is approximately 90 miles southeast of Reno, Nevada, and 

it is where our old Indian hospital was located until the Indian 

Health Service closed its doors in 1986. Since that time, the tribes 

who use that hospital have greatly seen more dependence on Contract Health Service, and there is a correlation between not having 

an Indian Health Service hospital and the need for Contract Health 

Service. Without a hospital, Nevada tribes are totally CHS dependent. The Contract Health Service formula needs to be changed to 

give more weight to tribes that do not have access to Indian hospitals. Due to the lack of CHS funding, Indian Health Service is 

only allowing priority level one life-or-limb referrals, and so far 

only 30 percent of the referrals for patients to use CHS have been 

approved. Basically, our patients are being denied health care. 

Furthermore, the Indian Health Service is not paying patients’ 

Contract Health Service medical bills in a timely manner. Thus, 

patients are receiving letters from collection agencies and they are 

not paying also the providers, the outside providers who provide 

those services. Therefore, the relationship is not good and some 

providers are denying to work with the Indian Health Service. Any 

budget savings due to the adherence to priority level one, which 

has happened with the new Indian Health Service director, has resulted in some savings. That savings should go back into opening 

up priority level two and not be disbursed elsewhere within the Indian Health Service. 

One recommendation would be to create centers of excellence like 

our brand-new facility that we built ourselves. A center of excellence would provide services that they do not have right now, Xrays, and therefore that would help not sending people out for Xrays, and there is a lot of specialty service that we could have within our health facility. Rather than building a new hospital, maybe 

we could create centers of excellence that would offset sending people out, which decreases the use of Contract Health Service. 

I would like to briefly talk about the increasing concern having 

to do with pain management or the lack of, which has resulted in 

patients being addicted to certain medications, painkillers. This 

issue is also a CHS issue whereby referring a patient outside our 

health clinic to a pain specialist is also not in the approved category of priority one, so referrals for this are also being denied. We 

believe IHS should address this ever-growing problem. This situation has resulted in security guards being placed at our health centers due to the irrational outbursts by patients who demand mediVerDate Mar 15 2010 04:23 Jun 30, 2011 Jkt 066982 PO 00000 Frm 00525 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A982P2.XXX A982P2

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cation. A demonstration project would be something that would 

help. 

And finally, our detention facility need in Nevada is really something that is critical there. Right now, we are desperately in need 

of regional detention facilities to hold those Indian people who have 

broken the law. You may be surprised to hear that there is not a 

single detention facility anywhere within the jurisdiction of Bureau 

of Indian Affairs western Nevada agency. This lack of detention facilities for adults and juveniles along with great distances that 

need to be traveled to access detention facilities that we contract 

for has been identified as the single most significant issue that our 

tribal justice systems face. Tribes in our region are presently contracting with five different counties. For longer-term sentences, 

prisoners are being sent out to facilities in Colorado and Wyoming. 

We are working jointly—— 

Mr. COLE. We are going to need to wind up pretty quickly. 

Mr. MELENDEZ. Okay. We would ask this committee to work with 

the BIA and perhaps with the Commerce, Justice and Science Subcommittee to ensure that there is a coordinated approach and that 

staffing and overall operation and maintenance for a western Nevada tribal detention center is funded. 

So I want to thank you very much for listening to me. 

[The statement of Arlan Melendez follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

NORTHWEST PORTLAND AREA INDIAN HEALTH BOARD 

WITNESS 

ANDREW JOSEPH, CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD 

Mr. JOSEPH. Good morning, Chairman Simpson, Ranking Member Moran and Honorable Mr. Cole. My name is Badger. I am Andy 

Joseph, Jr. I chair the Health and Human Services Committee for 

the Confederated Tribes of Colville and also the chair for the Portland Area Indian Health Board, 43 tribes of Washington, Idaho and 

Oregon, and as an executive member of the National Indian Health 

Board. I have submitted my testimony for the record and will summarize our recommendations. 

Let me begin by underscoring the federal trust responsibility to 

provide health care to Indians and the significant health disparities 

that affect our people. There is no question that Indian people suffer the highest rates of disease for most health indicators. My written testimony documents these glaring health disparities. This fact 

along with the trust responsibility makes it a requirement that 

Congress provide an adequate level of funding for IHS budget. In 

fiscal year 2011, we estimate that it would take at least $400 million to maintain current services. I hope the subcommittee recognizes that the $25 million increase was less than adequate funding 

in fiscal year 2011. We urge the subcommittee to support the level 

of funding requested in the President’s fiscal year 2012 budget request. The President’s 2012 request will help to preserve services 

by restoring lost funding to inflation, population growth, pay costs, 

contract support costs that were not funded in the fiscal year 2011 

budget. We recognize that this might seem like a sizable increase 

given the current fiscal estimate. However, I hope you will balance 

the request with the principles of the federal trust relationship and 

the fact that Indian people have the highest health disparities of 

any group in the United States. 

Our specific budget recommendations include, one, we recommend the subcommittee restore funding eliminated in the President’s request for tribal pay costs. We estimate this funding to be 

at least $13.4 million based on fiscal year 2011 IHS Congressional 

justification. These costs were eliminated in the President’s fiscal 

year 2012 request due to the administrative policy to freeze federal 

pay increases. If the tribal health system does not maintain pay 

cost requirements, it will be difficult to remain competitive, to recruit and retain health care professionals. 

Two, we recommend an additional $50 million be provided for the 

contract services program. The contract health program comprises 

34 percent of Idaho, Oregon and Washington tribes’ budget. Since 

we do not have hospitals, we must rely on CHS programs for all 

specific inpatient care. 

Three, we do not support the $6 million increase for business operation support. If the IHS cannot effectively utilize the resources 

it has now, then provide it with the additional funding to address 


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material weaknesses in processing the billing CHS claims dealing 

with business office practices and address weaknesses in the united 

financial management system will only result in the same dysfunction. Tribes have effectively managed these same growth challenges 

as IHS. If it is truly to address CHS needs, then the $6 million 

should be reprogrammed to the CHS budget line item. 

Four, we further recommend the subcommittee provide an addi- tional $53 million to fund past years contract support cost shortfalls that are owed to tribes under Public Law 93638. The achievements of Indian self-determination have consistently improved 

services delivery, increased services levels and strengthened tribal 

government services for Indian people. Every Administration since 

1975 has embraced the policy and Congress has repeatedly affirmed it through extensive amendments to strengthen the Self-Determination Act. 

Five, we urge the subcommittee to include bill report language 

that directs the IHS Director to fund innovative approaches for facilities construction in Indian Country. Over 15 years, the Portland 

area developed—— 

Mr. COLE. I do not mean to interrupt, but we are going to need 

to wrap up the statement pretty quickly, please. 

Mr. JOSEPH. The small ambulatory construction program—this 

program has been very beneficial for addressing facilities construction needs throughout Indian Country. Once again, the Portland 

area tribes have developed a new regional referral specialty care 

center concept that holds great promise to innovative approach to 

addressing health facility needs. Our proposal has been shared 

with the IHS Director, who equally believes it holds great promise. 

We appreciate this opportunity to meet with the committee staff 

to understand our proposal and how we might be able to move this 

concept. Thank you, and I am happy to take any questions. 

One of the things I would like to say is, today one of my comrades is being buried, and his service is in White Swan. His family 

is related to me from the Yakima Nation, and he was a young soldier that gave his life, and he swore an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States, and I expect the Congress here to 

remember that oath and to remember our soldiers that swore to 

protect that for us as I did myself. Thank you. 

[The statement of Andrew Joseph follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you, and thank you for your service. I note 

with a great deal of satisfaction the emblem you have for the 

United States Army, so we very much appreciate your service as 

well. 

I am going to go directly to you, Chairman, particularly since we 

have somebody from your home state, and I will ask my questions 

after Mr. Moran asks his. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. 

Let me first ask, Robert, you and the Cherokee Nation sued the 

Federal Government over contract support, right? 

Mr. BEAR. Yes, we did. 

Mr. SIMPSON. And the Supreme Court said essentially that the 

government was in default by not paying the contracts, that we 

have to pay the contracts, right? 

Mr. BEAR. That is correct, Chairman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. And then we started paying but not the full cost 

of the contract support. Has a lawsuit followed up anywhere that 

I am not aware of that is suing the government over not paying 

the full cost of the contract support? 

Mr. BEAR. Not that I am aware of currently, but that is our situation with IHS right now. We do have a self-governance compact 

but there is still a shortfall, though. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Well, as you know, that is one of the things that 

we focused on during this last budget was trying to get the funding 

up for contract support because last year during the testimony 

from tribes, what we heard from almost everybody that testified 

was the issue of contract support and not covering those costs, and 

so we made a substantial effort to address that last year when we 

wrote the C.R., and I will tell you, since Mr. Moran is here, he was 

a great chairman when he was in charge in terms of Indian Country and making sure that we put the resources in there to do what 

is necessary to meet our obligations. The same was true with Mr. 

Dicks when he was chairman of it, so I think the committee has 

shown some bipartisan support in trying to make sure that we 

meet these obligations that we have. It is going to be more difficult 

under reduced budgets that we had in our Continuing Resolution 

and in next year’s budget but we will do everything we can to make 

sure that we need those contract support obligations that we have, 

not just because it is right thing to do; we have an obligation to 

do it. So I appreciate that. 

Nathan, welcome and thanks for being here today. Where are we 

with the regional detention facility? Because we had put language 

in directing the department to look at that possibility, and if you 

look at the number of tribes across the country, 560 something or 

whatever it is, you are not going to be able to build a detention facility like Fort Hall built in every one of these locations, and it 

makes sense to start looking at some regional sorts of facilities, and 

have we come anywhere with that? 

Mr. SMALL. Last word I got was I think there was tribes in Wyoming and in Nevada and possibly Utah that are looking at possibly 

using our place as a regional jail, but there has not been a lot of 

talk and there has not been a lot of anything to really get that 

nailed down, and we feel that there is even other places that could 


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utilize our area as a regional jail, especially in northern Nevada 

and the eastern part of Nevada. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Has the department done anything to look across 

Indian Country and say, you know, where could regional detention 

facilities be built that make sense, that would be usable and accessible? You mentioned western Nevada. You know, we do not want 

to transport people all across the country, but to do it within a region where they would have access to their families, their families 

would have access to them and those types of things makes some 

sense. 

Mr. SMALL. Yes. I think they were—last I heard, they were looking at anywhere from a five- to an eight-hour drive from the regional facility to the outlying areas, and that is just what I have 

been hearing. However, I am not absolutely sure on a lot of that 

stuff. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Well, your tribe did a great job, and you went out 

and built this with your own funds, and the only thing you are asking of the BIA is to help the operational costs of it, and we have 

done the same thing. I know Tom has mentioned in Oklahoma 

where tribes have used their own funds to build a hospital, and you 

mentioned the same thing too, that tribes are stepping up to the 

plate and building these facilities that are necessary. The BIA 

needs to step in and make sure that they have the people to operate these facilities that the tribes are putting their resources into, 

so we look forward to seeing you in August, and we will be out 

there, and Tom, you will get a firsthand view of this. 

Mr. COLE. I am looking forward to it, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SMALL. Okay. Great. I welcome you guys there. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I do not know if you know this yet. We are trying 

to put together a plan. We want to visit several areas across the 

country on probably two or three different trips. 

Mr. COLE. The chairman said he could probably get me there in 

time to watch Boise’s August training. 

Mr. SIMPSON. And I want to say, it was a great football game 

with Boise State and Nevada, and I love good football games regardless of who wins. 

Mr. COLE. Do not believe that. He cares very much about who 

wins. 

Mr. Moran. 

Mr. MORAN. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. These issues are a classic 

case in point where I think the tribes’ best interests are served if 

I follow the leadership and judgment of you and Chairman Simpson, and so at this point I am just going to listen and learn and, 

as I say, follow your lead. But thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. COLE. Well, thank you very much, and again, I am going to 

make the point, I have made it before, it needs to be made frequently, we made a lot of progress in the last few years, and Chairman Simpson and Chairman Moran are two of the big reasons for 

that. This is actually one of the committees that really does work 

exceptionally well on a bipartisan basis and takes these responsibilities seriously, and quite honestly, the Administration has done 

a good job here in the last couple years stepping up in a lot of different ways as well, and so we appreciate that. 


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I have one comment I wanted to make and then I have a couple 

quick questions. A comment, I am interested for any of you that 

are involved in gaming. This really was sparked by something Representative Richardson said. It made me begin to think. I know 

that she mentioned gaming and how important that was, and just 

for the record, the difference in taxation rates between gaming facilities is dramatic, and some states look on tribes as an asset and 

keep that relatively low. They make money. Oklahoma, I think our 

compacts are around 6 percent, but we try to keep the tax rate 

roughly where it is for industry. Other states, it is higher, it is way 

higher than any other industry would pay. It might be 25 percent 

of the gross in some places like that. That is something maybe 

sometime we ought to take a look at, because when they do that, 

what they are effectively doing is taking money out of a tribe’s 

hand that would otherwise be spending it on, guess what, health 

care, education, services and that sort of thing. There ought to be 

some sort of federal limitation that you cannot take more from a 

tribe than you would from a business in your own state. I do not 

know if we have that ability or that power because compacting is 

pretty much a negotiation, but there is a big difference in some 

states where the state has really a hammer over the head of the 

tribes and uses it as a cash cow. 

I am particularly interested, a couple of you made the remarks 

about education, so I think you mentioned that, Mr. Small, and I 

think you did as well, Mr. Bear, although most of yours was on 

health care. Do you actually have a BIE school? 

Mr. SMALL. Yes, we have a school that was built here probably 

about 10, 15 years ago after about 30 years of lobbying for it and 

we finally got the school built for us and it houses our junior and 

senior high schools. One of the reasons why we have that is because the surrounding school district that has been educating our 

youth has somewhat been a failure to a lot of our people. There are 

a few success stories out there but the majority of them were not 

getting the educational thing, so the tribes felt at that time it 

would need to be building our own school and let us capture those 

people before it is too late. Well, I also mentioned that we added 

a 6th grade. Well, a lot of our students that are at our junior and 

senior high school right now, they come from the outside districts 

where they are a failure so they come to the tribal school to try 

and catch up, and it takes a lot of effort on our schoolteachers and 

staff to bring them back up to speed and sometimes it just does not 

quite get there, so we thought we would go a little lower and capture the 6th grade and see if we can follow up with the 6th grade 

all the way to the time that they graduate, they would have a better educational opportunity to have that happen. 

Mr. COLE. On the funding, is the funding that the Federal Government provides for the school comparable on a per-pupil basis 

with what is provided in the surrounding school districts? 

Mr. SMALL. I believe right now they are only funding at about $3,000 per student. 

Mr. COLE. So quite a bit less, I would think. 

Mr. SMALL. It is a lot less. It is almost half of what is on—— 

Mr. COLE. I am going to keep making this point, but I think, 

again, as a committee, we ought to begin to look at that. We have 


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a federal trust responsibility. I do not see how in the world you fulfill it if we are not funding students at the same level that they 

are being funded in the state around it. There does not have to be 

the same level nationally but we ought to be providing kids comparable economic support with what they are getting locally. 

Mr. SMALL. Yes. 

Mr. COLE. One other quick question, if I can direct it at you, Mr. 

Melendez. I was very interested in what you had to say about the 

challenges you have with an urban reservation and health care, 

and we see a lot of this in Oklahoma as well. Do you get any particular extra money because you are taking care of a much larger 

population than your tribal population? 

Mr. MELENDEZ. Not really. It is pretty much the same budget 

that we have every year. It increases slightly because of the overall—you know, I think the President increased Indian Health Service across the board but it was not really—— 

Mr. COLE. But there is no special provision for—I know in Oklahoma we have urban Indian health care facilities that again deal 

with large populations. Oklahoma City is not even in Indian Country. Most of the state is. And so we have one there. It is a special 

one to take care of the Native population. In Tulsa, we have overlapping jurisdiction. There is tribal jurisdiction but there is also a 

separate Indian health care facility that is really non-tribal affiliated to help with exactly this sort of thing so that the tribes are 

not picking up beyond, really their own membership. But is there 

no BIA program? I mean, you are clearly in a very special situation. We are mandating you take care of a very large population 

and we do not provide you any extra resources to do that? 

Mr. MELENDEZ. Not really. Right now, of every four people that 

comes to the door of our health center located in an urban setting, 

only one is a tribal member, so it is a four-to-one ratio, and the 

urban population, because the State of Nevada is also a Contract 

Health Service delivery area, the whole state, that does not really 

help the situation because more people are gravitating to the city 

for jobs and so we get that increased number of people that we cannot turn away, because the crossover. Other tribes 30 miles away 

come to our brand-new facility. We cannot turn them away either 

so they think we have better services, they come to our facility, 

saving their own money and basically using our doctors, and we 

can only see so many at one time. So it is a problem for urban 

tribes. 

Mr. COLE. That is something we really need to look at figuring 

out what we can do. That is a very unfair burden on your tribe. 

Ms. McCollum. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Representative Cole, you have me thinking of 

doing more research on how school-aid formulas are put together, 

and I am looking in Minnesota in particular. 

But sir, do you know if it is just a state match or if there is property taxes that are levied that are part of the blend for the perpupil dollars that go towards children in public school? 

Mr. SMALL. The state does not provide anything to our tribal 

school. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. To your tribal school, but to the public school 

district? Because Representative Cole has been making, I think, an 


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interesting and a very valid point that at least children in the same 

state should have an expectation of a level playing field. For example, in Minnesota, it is in the constitution so the state has the responsibility, be there additional property taxes that can be levied 

so there are disparities even within the state as to how much children are receiving, and I think you are looking to go towards an 

aggregate. But I am wondering if you know in your state besides 

what the state puts in towards the state public school, do communities levy property taxes and levy money for bonding? You might 

not know living where you do, so I do not mean to put you on the 

spot. 

Mr. SMALL. Well, no, they do have local levies that they have for 

specific, many for construction, but as far as putting extra money 

into the actual curriculums and those kinds of things, I do not 

think that is occurring there as far as extra taxes and those kinds 

of things that go on on the outside. And Public Law 874 I think 

provides some of that funding to the outside school district for the 

students that do attend there. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Thank you. 

Mr. COLE. Well, thank you very much, gentlemen, for your testimony. Once again, we are running behind. It is always my fault. 

But thank you very much for what you had to say. I appreciate it. 

If we could, we will call our next panel, and I hope I do not mispronounce anybody’s name: Mr. Suppah, Ms. Pigsley, Ms. Brigham, 

Mr. Blythe. Do we have two Ms. Brighams? No, you are just down 

twice. I guess you get extra time. And Chairwoman Kennedy. 

Okay. If we could, we will proceed as we did with the last panel. 

We will just start on our left, your right, and if you would identify 

yourself and then you have got five minutes, and obviously we try 

to be generous. I think there is somebody here who is representing 

two constituents so we will give you a little bit of extra time if you 

need it. If we can, we will go ahead and get started. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

CONFEDERATED TRIBES OF THE WARM SPRINGS 

RESERVATION OF OREGON 

WITNESS 

RON SUPPAH, VICE-CHAIRMAN 

Mr. SUPPAH. Good morning, Mr. Chairman. I am Ron Suppah, 

Vice-Chairman for the Confederated Tribes of Warm Springs Reservation of Oregon. I thank you for this chance to testify today. We 

did submit our written testimony, and I will just summarize briefly 

what the testimony states. 

I also want to express the Warm Springs Tribes’ appreciation for 

your efforts to maintain the BIA and IHS budgets serving the Indian people. In these times, we thank you for your courage and 

your dedication. 

We wish the economic picture could be brighter, Mr. Chairman, 

because there are still many areas in the BIA and IHS budgets 

that need attention. Below, I want to set out the Warm Springs 

tribes’ priorities for fiscal year 2012 increases. 


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First, Warm Springs is a timber tribe with approximately 

250,000 commercial forest acres, and we ask that the BIA’s forestry 

and forestry project budgets be increased substantially. Since fiscal 

year 2004, the forestry budget has fallen behind inflation by more 

than 40 percent. This loss of forest management capacity could be 

testing the bureau’s ability to fulfill its trust responsibilities. Regarding the forest projects budget, we ask that it receive a $5 million increase for reducing the backlog of commercial forest acres in 

need of forest development treatment throughout Indian forests 

across the country. 

The Warm Springs Reservation also must manage for northern 

spotted owl, spring Chinook salmon and steelhead, all ESA listed 

species, with inadequate resources. For the owl, we receive less 

than half of what we received more than 12 years ago. To help the 

BIA endangered species budget meet its mandates, Warm Springs 

requests that it be funded at $5 million with $2.3 million of that 

dedicated to northern spotted owl and marbled murrelet. 

Warm Springs supports the increases provided for law enforcement in recent years. That has put more law enforcement personnel in tribal communities but they remain unfortunately low 

paid and personnel turnover is a big problem. Therefore, we are encouraged that portions of the fiscal year 2012 investigations and 

police services increase and a portion of the detention and corrections fiscal year 2012 request are to help boost tribal base budgets 

which can help address this low-pay problem. 

We also support the conservation law enforcement officer initiative. Such personnel are needed on our reservation where they are 

patrolling our forests and waterways and protecting our natural resources and allow our Warm Springs police to focus on community 

safety. 

In education, for fiscal year 2012, we urge that you double John- son-O’Malley funding to $27 million. Johnson-O’Malley is the only 

elementary and secondary education support provided by the BIE 

for the more than 85 percent of Indian children who are in public 

schools. Its funding has declined to just $13.4 million for fiscal year 

2012 and it really should be at least doubled to preserve a semblance of BIE commitment to those Indian public school students. 

In the Indian Health Service, Warm Springs requests you round 

up the $89.6 million increase for Contract Health Services to a full 

$100 million to simply underscore your commitment to addressing 

the $1 million backlog in deferred services. In the Northwest, 

where there is no IHS hospital, Contract Health Service remains 

a critical issue. Also in IHS, we request that $50 million be added 

to contract support costs, specifically for new contracts, and that 

those funds be used for that purpose. Today, IHS directs all contract support funds to existing contracts, basically shutting out any 

new contracts. Simply equity demands that we change. 


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Finally, we ask that the subcommittee check to make sure the 

IHS northwest regional office’s distribution of discretionary funds 

fairly and fully includes the direct service tribes. It seems altogether too often that those funds go to self-governance tribes, and 

direct service tribes just want to make sure we are treated fairly. 

That concludes my testimony, and I would like to thank the subcommittee for its time and attention. 

[The statement of Ron Suppah follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you very much. If we could, we will move 

along. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

CONFEDERATED TRIBES OF THE UMATILLA INDIAN 

RESERVATION 

WITNESS 

N. KATHRYN BRIGHAM, SECRETARY, BOARD OF TRUSTEES 

Ms. BRIGHAM. Good morning. My name is Kathryn Brigham. I go 

by Kat Brigham. I am a member of the Confederated Tribes of the 

Umatilla Indian Reservation. I am also the elected official for the 

tribe and serve as the board of trustees’ secretary, and I am here 

today on behalf of the tribe supporting the Indian Health Service 

to approve the administrative IHS budget in the amount of $4.6 

billion, which includes much-needed increases in the Contract 

Health Service of $89.6 million, catastrophic health emergency 

funds, $10 million, and contract support of $63.3 million. The other 

thing we support is the BIA public safety adding $30 million to the 

tribal courts for public defenders and related extension costs and 

BIA rights protection, restoring the 2,101,000 elimination of litigation support attorney fees. 

We appreciate you guys stepping up for the fiscal year 2011 and 

2012 and we are hoping, we know this is tough times and we are 

hoping that in these tough times you are able to step up again to 

help us in this funding crisis. I was really pleased to hear, you 

know, you have accepted the trust responsibility to the tribes and 

the obligations that you have. We signed treaties. The Federal Government has a trust responsibility to the tribes and we are continuing to ask that the Federal Government live up to that trust 

responsibility in seeking the funding that we have been asking for 

for some time. I think we have made substantial improvements 

through the gaming but we also need assistance as well. Our Contract Health Service is establishing priorities and saying yes or no, 

you can have contract health, and this is early in the year, I mean, 

so this is something that we all have to face. 

And I just also want to add, you know, you brought up education. 

Our tribe has a charter school that was developed. This is our seventh year. That charter school has been supported by the Pendleton School District, and with that charter school, we are able 

to—we have increased our graduation rates. It used to be down to 

40 percent. Now we are up to almost 97 percent. 

Mr. COLE. Wow. 

Ms. BRIGHAM. So it is a substantial increase, and while these 

students are not only learning, they are learning their grades, 

keeping their grades up, but they are also learning their language, 

culture and history, so we are really pleased with our charter 

school but we want to increase that as well. We are looking for a 

building too because right now it is in one of our old buildings that, 

you know, we vacated and so they are in there. 

I think also we have real concerns with the enforcement. We are 

really glad with the law enforcement act that was passed but we 


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also need to have the trained judges and the training that is needed to implement the law enforcement act. 

I guess, again, you know, I thank you for this opportunity and 

I support everything that was basically said this morning. I think 

it is something that is needed. 

Do you want me to go on to CRITFC? 

[The statement of N. Kathryn Brigham follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Sure. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

COLUMBIA RIVER INTER-TRIBAL FISH COMMISSION 

WITNESS 

N. KATHRYN BRIGHAM, SECRETARY 

Ms. BRIGHAM. Again, this time I am the Secretary of the Columbia River Inter-Tribal Fish Commission, a commission that has 

been formed since 1977, and this is an organization to provide technical assistance to the four member tribes: the Yakima Nation of 

Washington, Warm Springs and Umatilla of Oregon and Nez Perce 

Tribe of Idaho, and so we coordinate our actions through this body 

in providing technical assistance to the four tribes, and we are 

known as CRITFC. 

You know, our base budget is through the BIA rights protection 

implementation account. Our programs are carried out pursuant to 

the Indian Self-Determination and Assistance Act. We conduct 

comprehensive treaty rights implementation programs and attempt 

to remain compliant with court orders such as U.S. v. Oregon, regional intergovernmental agreements such as the accord that was 

signed with the federal agencies, and the Pacific salmon treaty, an 

international treaty. Together, the tribes’ managers and co-managers, we are about the size of Georgia in the area in which they 

cover. We also have taken a lead in ecosystem management. We 

are looking at watershed to watershed. We are looking at water 

quality, and we are also working with five states plus the federal 

agencies and some private individuals in trying to develop a coordinated, collaborative approach in addressing the salmon restoration. 

Our principals in the region are first to halt the decline of the 

salmon, and I wanted to show you this graph, and this graph is important to us simply because it shows this is what has been happening under the federal and state leadership. When the tribes 

start taking leadership, we started seeing a trend of increases. We 

went down here and went back up here. Twenty ten is up here, 

2011 is even going to be higher for our fall Chinook, and this also 

shows the trends that we have done with natural stocks, with ESA 

stocks, and so we are working on those and we have also been 

working—and I want to give this to you and I also want to let you 

know that, you know, I know Congressman Norm Dicks and I have 

got into it over tribal science, but I wanted to assure him—— 

Mr. DICKS. We will always work together. 

Ms. BRIGHAM. Yes, we will. I wanted to assure you, and I am 

sorry Mr. Simpson is gone but we have been working with the University of Idaho in trying to develop a really rigorous science approach on how to address genetics and rebuilding of our naturally 

spawning fish so we are working hard, and I think we have a good 

approach because one of our goals is to protect our first foods, 

which is in the Pacific Northwest, and each of us have our first 

foods. 

I think with tribal leadership it shows that we are making positive steps to rebuilding stocks, and I can remember when we did 


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not have any salmon to harvest and now our fishermen are glad 

that they are fishing. 

Specifically, at a minimum, I would like to recommend that we 

restore the entire rights protection implementation account to its 

2010 level of $30,471,000. This is to meet our current needs, and 

we also request $7,712,000 for the Columbia River Fisheries Management, $3 million over the President’s budget request. We also 

request a restored level of $4,800,000 to the U.S. Pacific salmon 

treaty, which is $694,000 above the President’s request, and this is 

to implement the U.S.-Canada treaty that we have signed. We have 

what we call a triple crown in the Pacific Northwest, which is the 

U.S.-Canada treaty, which is a 10-year agreement that we signed 

in 2008. We have the accords that three of the CRITFC tribes have 

signed which is a 10-year agreement that was signed in 2008, and 

then we also have the U.S. v. Oregon management plan, which is 

a court-ordered plan that is a 10-year agreement that we also 

signed in 2008, and we will be celebrating the accords on May 

26th, I think it is, so this month, and looking at the progress that 

we have made in signing the accords to help us, you know, rebuild 

some of the natural stocks because one of the things that we have 

seen is that, you know, ESA is out there but at the same time, 

there are other stocks out there as well, and for this reason, I 

would also—and I know, again, Congressman Norm and I do not 

necessarily agree but I think the mass marking issue needs to be 

revisited because those stocks that are on the chart that show 

higher, some of those stocks, and I can give examples where the 

Imnaha tributary, we are killing 600 stock fish that are coming 

back to the tributary, and the only way they can tell them apart 

is because they are mass marked. So we think we should be looking at that to determine, you know, how we can help rebuild our 

naturally spawning fish. 

That is all. Thank you. 

[The statement of N. Kathryn Brigham follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you very much. 

Larry, we will go to you next. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

INTERTRIBAL TIMBER COUNCIL 

WITNESS 

C. LARRY BLYTHE, BOARD MEMBER 

Mr. BLYTHE. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. I am Larry Blythe. I am the Vice Chief for the Eastern 

Band of Cherokees in North Carolina. I am here today as a board 

member for the Intertribal Timber Council, or ITC, to testify on its 

behalf. Intertribal Timber Council is a consortium of about 70 timber-owning tribes across America, and we of course advocate for 

forest management practices. We advocate for funding for tribes 

wherever they are located. We control about 10 million acres of 

property. 

Mr. Chairman, the ITC wants to thank you for protecting Indian 

programs. These are difficult times including for those of us in the 

forestry business, and your support is really appreciated. 

As timber tribes, keeping our forest healthy and productive is essential. We rely on our forests for physical and spiritual sustenance 

and for governmental revenues and community jobs. To help sustain our forests and our local economies, the ITC is developing a 

concept we call anchor forests. An anchor forest is a large tract of 

forestland that is dedicated to being maintained as healthy and 

productive. This must include related infrastructure such as sawmills, and the community and its workforce, which provide the capacity and resources necessary to actively manage and preserve the 

forest. As sawmills go away, the forest markets and communities 

wither, and the forest itself can subside into a poorly managed or 

unmanaged state vulnerable to fire and infestation and disease. As 

timber tribes wedding to our forest homelands, we cannot allow 

this to occur. Our reservation forest operations and communities 

should be viewed as anchor forests. They need to be sustained. 

To that end, we ask the subcommittee to direct the BIA and Forest Service to conduct a comprehensive evaluation of anchor forests 

in Indian Country, to examine their role, what is needed to preserve tribal forests and their related economies and how those 

needs might be addressed. We would also ask that agencies be directed to work with the Intertribal Timber Council and timber 

tribes on such an evaluation. 

Mr. Chairman, in conjunction with a study of anchor forests, the 

Intertribal Timber Council urges the subcommittee to consider a 

range of forestry-related program increases. We recognize this is a 

difficult environment but Indian forestry has historically been underfunded. Much of what we request is simply urging the tribal forestry-related programs be funded at something close to or at least 

closer to similar budgets in other federal agencies. For the BIA forestry program, we support the $1 million increase for tribal priority 

allocation and urge that the increase be a total of $5 million. For 

years, independent reports have documented Indian per-acre forVerDate Mar 15 2010 04:23 Jun 30, 2011 Jkt 066982 PO 00000 Frm 00560 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A982P2.XXX A982P2

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estry funding at about half of that for the Forest Service, and more 

recently, BIA TPA forestry funding has lagged further and further 

behind other federal forest management agencies. 

It is even worse for BIA forestry projects, which has been an outright decline for seven years. To correct this disparity, the ITC requests an increase of $8 million, $5 million of which is to reduce 

the 800,000-acre backlog in commercial forests in need of replanting and thinning. For BIA endangered species, ITC requests a total of $5 million 

based on the same per-acre funding as the Bureau of Land Management. 

The same goes for cooperative landscape management where 

BIA’s total funding for 52 million acres of Indian trust land is a 

mere $200,000. To be treated as an equal among the Interior Department’s other agencies, the BIA should receive at least $17.5 

million. 

Mr. Chairman, we support BIA’s new and needed conservation 

law enforcement officer program. It will help protect tribal trust 

natural resources and ease the burden on regular tribal law enforcement personnel. 

Finally, for the Department of Interior wild land fire management, the ITC asks that Interior and Forest Service wild land fire 

funding and accounting be standardized. We also ask that $44.6 

million be restored to Interior hazards fuel reduction. Limiting 

fuels funding to the wild land-urban interface endangers the lives 

of our people who live all throughout the lands and abandons the 

trust responsibility to protect our forest assets. Lastly, we ask that $6.8 million be restored to Interior burned 

area rehabilitation. Again, the United States must abide by its fiduciary obligation to care for our forest resources including stabilizing and restoring burned-over acres. 

Mr. Chairman, that concludes my remarks. Thank you. 

[The statement of C. Larry Blythe follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you very much. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

SILETZ TRIBE 

WITNESS 

DELORES PIGSLEY, CHAIRMAN, TRIBAL COUNCIL 

Ms. PIGSLEY. Good morning. My name is Delores Pigsley, and I 

welcome the opportunity to be here today and to provide testimony. 

I am the Chairman of the Confederated Tribes, the Siletz Indians, 

and I have served over 32 years on the tribal council and 26 of 

those years as the tribal chairman. We are a small tribe on the Oregon coast. I have testified previously before this committee and 

many committees in the past and know that you listen and act accordingly. 

The tribe understands the whole Nation is going through a tough 

economic time, and so are we. However, even in good times, we are 

sorely underfunded in critical areas. We are a self-governance tribe 

and have the ability to move funds around when it is necessary to 

cover priority services. We use grants from government, tribal resources and private organizations to help us cover necessary programs. It is the only way we can maintain our services. The Bureau of Indian Affairs has never been adequately funded to cover 

the costs of programs nor allow enough money under contract support costs. 

For tribal court, our tribal court budget is $235,000. Of this 

amount, only $21,000 comes from BIA funds. Other funds must be 

used to fully fund the court including Department of Interior, Department of Justice and tribal resources. The fiscal year 2012 request is for a $1.2 million reduction from the $24.7 million that 

was appropriated last year. 

Education is a very high priority. Every year we see large growth 

in the number of students applying for funds for adult education, 

adult vocational training and higher education. We recognize the 

problem is a good one for us. We have more students in college and 

adult programs than ever before in our history. However, our funding for higher education is at the same level it was at in 1995. For 

the years 2004 to 2010, that six years, the tribe received $665,000 

for AVT, and the actual cost was $1.1 million. That is a $454,000 

shortfall. And for higher education for the same period, the tribe 

received BIA funds of $827,000. Our actual cost was $5.1 million, 

and that is a shortfall of $4.3 million. Education is our highest priority. For 2012, the BIA is requesting $32 million, a $1.8 million 

reduction, and this is unacceptable to us and it is insulting to see 

such a reduction where within this area we have the greatest need. 

Charter schools were mentioned. We have a charter school in 

Siletz, and it was necessary because the state was closing the 

school. We had a 75 percent dropout rate, and it was necessary for 

the tribe to get involved and keep the school in Siletz, and today 

we fund that school along with state funds. Our commitment is 

about a quarter of a million dollars a year. 


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Funding for boarding schools such as Chimowa Indian School is 

totally inadequate. Boarding schools are criticized for the level of 

education that students receive, and if additional funds were provided for these students, they could reach the same potential that 

we recognize in our students who attend public and private schools, 

and I urge that someone take the time to review this situation, perhaps visit Chimowa Indian boarding school in Salem, Oregon. 

Contract support costs have been mentioned many times. Without adequate contract support fund costs, the promise of the 1975 

Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act to allow 

tribes to contract and compact to administer programs formerly administered by federal agencies such as Bureau of Indian Affairs 

goes unfulfilled. Tribes have increased the quality and level of service to our tribal members under self-governance yet tribes are left 

to fill the shortfall by having to reduce services. A good example 

is our Indian child welfare program where positions cannot be 

filled because of inadequate funds. Workers currently carry workloads two and three times higher than that in state programs. Failure to adequately fund contract support costs defeats the program’s 

very purpose to improve services and the lives of our members. 

Tribes go to extraordinary lengths to pool together resources to 

meet priority needs for our members, often at the expense of foregoing or reducing other services. 

I hope that you are convinced by our written testimony that increases to these and other programs are essential for tribes to create safe, healthy and functioning communities, and I thank you for 

allowing me to share these recommendations. 

[The statement of Delores Pigsley follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you very much for your testimony. 

Chairwoman Kennedy. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

CONFEDERATED TRIBES OF GRAND RONDE 

WITNESS 

CHERYLE A. KENNEDY, CHAIRWOMAN 

Ms. KENNEDY. Good morning to you, Chairman Simpson, Congressman Cole, Congressman Moran, Congresswoman McCollum 

and Congressman Dicks. My name is Cheryle Kennedy. I am the 

Chairwoman of the Confederated Tribes of Grand Ronde in Oregon. 

Mr. Simpson, it has been a pleasure to have worked with a number of your tribes from the great State of Idaho. I served as executive director of the Northwest Portland Area Indian Health Board, 

representing 43 tribes in Oregon, Washington and Idaho. I am also 

honored to serve on the Secretary Sebelius’s Secretary Tribal Advisory Committee, called the STAC. This is the first tribal advisory 

committee established to advise the Secretary in the history of the 

Department of the Health and Human Services. 

I want to thank the subcommittee for meeting with Native American tribes who have the unique relationship with the United 

States. I want to thank you for your leadership that you have 

taken in addressing concerns and problems of Native Americans 

across the United States. My testimony is also shaped as far as the 

30-year health career that I had as a health administrator for a 

number of tribes. I also come from a tribe that was terminated for 

nearly 30 years, seeing those effects and suffering those injustices. 

Many of them still remain today and we lag far behind other tribes 

of the United States. 

I want to specifically talk about some of the things that have already been addressed so I will take a departure from the written 

comments, but those things are on Contract Health Service. As you 

have heard many tribes mention here today, being in an area 

where we have no hospitals, it is a great extra burden on us. We 

are dependent Contract Health Service dollars for all of our hospital care that we receive. The Indian Health Service does have a 

formula whereby CHS funds are distributed. We believe it is an unfair formula. There is not enough weight given to the areas that 

do not have hospitals and we would like to see that there be another look in another committee that is formed to address these important issues. 

Contract support costs are also very important for tribes. They 

are what supports strong governments, and if you do not have dollars to support your strong governments, you have one of two decisions that you make. One is that you take those funds to support 

your government out of the program costs, so when we talk about 

Indian Health Service and Bureau of Indian Affairs, which are so 

greatly underfunded anyhow for programs, our choice and the only 

choice we have is to take from those costs and to support the governmental needs that we do have, not a very good choice at all but 


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a choice that is forced upon us because of the insufficient funds 

that are there. 

I want to also mention that Dr. Roubideaux, who is the Indian 

Health Service Director, conducted listening sessions with tribes 

and she talked about many of the disparities that are existing in 

health care. One of the programs that she set up was the Contract 

Health Service’s formula, and we discussed last year in this listening session the problems that are associated, particularly for dependent area tribes, and we want to come straightforward with 

some recommendations that were developed under that work 

group. One is that the alternate resources, Medicare, Medicaid, private insurance and changes under health reform when making 

CHS distribution. Two is for the contract support services dependency. Three, the use of actual medical inflation when allocating 

CHS funds. Four is the unique circumstances of CHS dependent 

areas that must be addressed by IHS and Congress. Otherwise 

these systems will continue to be plagued with chronic underfunding and may not be able to capitalize on health care coverage 

expansions that will come with health reform. And five, to address 

the lack of access to the Catastrophic Health Emergency Fund, or 

CHEF. Congress should consider establishing an intermediate risk 

pool for CHS dependent areas. 

In sum, the work group formula does not meet the test of fairness in the way it was developed or the results it produced. Grand 

Ronde along with the Northwest Portland Area Indian Health 

Board is ready to work on developing this new area. In addition, 

again, to the CHS formulas, I strongly support the IHS budget formulation work group request for a $118 million increase to be provided for Contract Health Services. Considering the estimated CHS 

program needs exceed $1 billion—— 

Mr. COLE. If we could, we are about out of time, so if we 

could—— 

Ms. KENNEDY. I will. Thank you so much. 

The other thing, I will move on to a couple of other areas. I want 

to especially say that there is great underfunding in the infrastructure for all tribes, that we want the Congress to work with us so 

that funds are directly distributed to tribes rather than going 

through the middleman, which is the states, often that is a very 

cumbersome policy, and that public safety services need to be provided to a much greater degree for tribes. 

Again, thank you for this time to present this testimony and for 

your willingness to listen. 

[The statement of Cheryle A. Kennedy follows:] 


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Mr. COLE. Thank you very much. 

I am going to forego my time. With Mr. Simpson’s and Mr. 

Moran’s permission, Mr. Dicks obviously is our former chairman 

and the ranking member of the entire committee, I know his time 

is always limited so it is great to have you here, Mr. Chairman, 

and I wanted to recognize you first. 

Mr. DICKS. Well, I just wanted to respond to the questions about 

the Columbia River and why we have moved towards mass marking in selective fisheries, and that is because we want to protect 

wild salmon, and one of the things I want to compliment the tribes 

on is their supplementation programs where you take wild fish and 

use them as brood stock so that the hatchery fish are as close to 

wild as possible. 

In California, they did not mark their fish and now they do not 

have a fishery because they are shut down under the Endangered 

Species Act. I just completely disagree with your conclusion that 

somehow not marking these fish is a better way to go. It simply 

is not, and the scientists say all of the habitat work that we do is 

enhanced if you lower the stray rates and you have to be able to 

identify the hatchery fish and the wild fish in order to do that. 

So I hope you can get some science. When you do, please bring 

it to my office and we will talk about it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Ms. BRIGHAM. Can I respond? 

Mr. COLE. Absolutely. 

Ms. BRIGHAM. You know, Congressman Norm Dicks and I have 

disagreed on this for quite some time. We have partnered up with 

the University of Idaho and we are looking at the genetics of how 

we can identify, you know, natural stocks, and we are really glad, 

you know, because this is another graph that shows some of the 

work that the tribes have done since we started getting into re 

building naturally spawning fish, and our numbers have gone up, 

but also, you know, if—— 

Mr. DICKS. How do you know? 

Ms. BRIGHAM. Look at the graph. I mean, our graph shows we 

have got positive numbers. 

Mr. DICKS. If the fish were marked, then you would definitely 

know they were wild fish. You cannot tell unless you do extensive 

DNA analysis whether they are wild or hatchery fish. 

Ms. BRIGHAM. I have asked scientists, a number of them, can you 

tell me if it is a hatchery fish or a natural fish if it was not mass 

marked, and the answer is no. I mean, they cannot tell the difference. 

Mr. DICKS. They can with DNA analysis. They can tell that. 

Ms. BRIGHAM. With DNA, you can tell that those supplement fish 

are coming back. 

Mr. DICKS. But we do not ask you to mark the supplemented fish 

because we want you to encourage supplementation of wild stocks. 

Ms. BRIGHAM. We are just asking that this be reviewed, I mean, 

simply because we are taking—I mean, one of the Imnaha, we had 

1,000 fish coming back to Imnaha. We had to take 600 of those fish 

out and destroy them, and they came from the supplementation 

that you are telling us was a success, and we had to destroy them 

because they were mass marked. 


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Mr. DICKS. That is not true. The Nisqually Indians got 11,000 

fish back to the hatchery. They gave them to the local food banks 

for hungry people and hungry tribal members. You do not have to 

do away with the fish. The fish are perfectly good. You can use 

them for a socially important purpose, and I will be glad to help 

you on that if you need help. 

Ms. BRIGHAM. Okay. I used the wrong word. By destroying, I 

mean you are not putting it back into the system, and that is exactly what happened is, they got put into different areas, you 

know, so people could use them, so they were not buried or anything like that, but they were put to human consumption use but 

they could have been put back into the tributaries to help rebuild 

those naturally spawning fish. 

Mr. DICKS. Well, if you have a hatchery, you take a certain 

amount of the fish that you have caught and you take the eggs and 

the sperm and put it in the hatchery and then you use that for the 

next year’s run of fish. I mean, this is not rocket science. 

Ms. BRIGHAM. We are having a future salmon conference on June 

1st and 2nd in Portland. We would like to invite all of you to come 

or send some staff people to come to this meeting in Portland, Oregon, and we are going to talk about some of these things that Congressman Dicks and I are talking about. 

Mr. COLE. I would just say, speaking as a member of a Plains 

tribe, you might want to think about buffalo. It is a lot easier to 

keep track of them. 

With that, let me move to Mr. Simpson. 

Mr. SIMPSON. The only problem with buffalo is, you do not know 

if they were raised in a pasture that is fenced or in the wild. 

Mr. DICKS. That is right. 

Mr. COLE. It does not take long to figure out which they are. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Well, you know, I always love these discussions. If 

I have a look at the DNA of a fish to know whether it is something, 

I question what the difference is, to some degree, but we do mark 

hatchery fish. 

Mr. DICKS. We do, and it is the right thing to do. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Yeah, they got blunt noses from hitting up against 

the cement. 

Mr. DICKS. Mr. Chairman, it is the right thing to do. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Never mind. Since I was not here for the testimony, I do not really have any questions except to say that obviously your testimony is important about what we are going to do 

as we put together the 2012 appropriations bill, and we look forward to working with you as we do that, and since the subject 

came up earlier, and it has absolutely nothing to do with this, but 

since the subject came up in an earlier panel, I just wanted to 

bring this down for Mr. Cole. 

Mr. COLE. I will put this—just so you know, Mr. Simpson in the 

spirit of being such a good sport, as you know, we lost to them five 

years ago. He once brought me a pen with the school colors, and 

I thought that was very nice. He said just press it, and I did, and 

it immediately played the last 90 seconds of the game so I would 

not forget it ever. So this will be right with my pen, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. DICKS. Has he shown you his Statue of Liberty play? 


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Mr. COLE. I believe I have seen enough Statues of Liberty out of 

Boise State. 

Mr. Moran, I am sorry I have lost control of this meeting but you 

are next. 

Mr. MORAN. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was just thinking, 

you know, I live in an urban metropolitan area right here in Washington, DC. Boise State-Nevada, we know those are two darn good 

teams so we watch them for our entertainment. We do not care 

that much who wins as long as it is well-fought, but they have established themselves, particularly Boise State, over the years, and 

so we turn on, we put our attention to things when we know what 

they stand for. They stand for good football, sportsmanship, whatever. And likewise, we have no salmon in northern Virginia but we 

eat a whole lot of it. We consume an enormous amount of salmon 

because it is frankly the healthiest fish there is. But we buy from 

people and restaurants where we know what they stand for, and 

my concern is that if salmon are adulterated, if we cannot trust 

whether they are farm-raised or wild salmon—and obviously there 

is a premium. If you go into any one of these stores, Whole Foods, 

you know, Trader Joe’s, wherever you go, you will find a discriminating buyer looking for the wild salmon because they know there 

is more protein there, it is healthier, et cetera, et cetera, and they 

pay an enormous premium. It is like two, three times what they 

paid for the farm raised. And my concern is if it is adulterated— 

if we cannot really tell the difference between one or the other then 

certainly the value of the wild goes down and there are bound to 

be articles questioning whether they are really wild salmon. You 

can be sure that the paper is going to jump all over it if we cannot 

prove it. And in fact the attraction of buying salmon generally goes 

down. That has an adverse affect on everyone. 

So I have been thinking about this. I—at first when Mr. Dicks— 

we are going to tag, mark all the salmon. You are going to what? 

That is the most bizarre thing. But actually the more I look into 

it, it does not strike me as very bizarre because you have got to 

maintain the integrity of wild salmon because it has an enormous 

value. And it needs to be what you say it is. And so just a random 

comment from somebody and I may be the only one who does not 

have any salmon in my district, but you are not going to be raising 

as many salmon and you are certainly not going to be getting the 

revenue unless my constituents continue consuming it and being 

willing to pay very high prices for the best wild salmon. So with 

that, that is all I have to say, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for having 

the hearing. 

Ms. BRIGHAM. Can I share? 

Mr. MORAN. Certainly. 

Ms. BRIGHAM. We have this exact—exact what you’re talking 

about exactly happened to the Umatilla Tribe. In the Umatilla 

River, we lost our salmon for 75 years. In the Walla Walla Basin 

we lost our salmon for 100 years. This is a graph of the work that 

we have done and we are actually co-managing with the State of 

Washington or Oregon on how to rebuild naturally spawning fish 

in the Umatilla River. And we have been successful. We are actually retaining annually over 3,000 fish into the Umatilla River that 

we are harvesting at a 50/50 allocation. Last year was the first 


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time in 100 years that the Umatilla Tribe opened the season in the 

Walla Walla Basin and we are hoping, I mean, we are hoping this 

year numbers are going to show up so that we can have another 

season. And if we are taking the same approach we are taking we 

are seeing hatcheries or nurseries and helping us rebuild our naturally spawning fish so that they can be spawning naturally into the 

system and rebuild and continue to come back. 

Mr. MORAN. That is all good. 

Ms. BRIGHAM. Yes. 

Mr. MORAN. That is all well and good, but when you showed us 

the last chart and it was wonderful that it was going up in a very 

positive incline, but it does not distinguish between farm raised 

and hatchery raised or wild salmon. 

Ms. RICHARDSON. Okay. 

Mr. MORAN. And thus distinguish between the value of each, nor 

did the first chart. I mean, the—even though it is a smaller share, 

I suspect that the wild salmon bring in almost as much revenue 

as the much greater share of farm raised. But for example, this is 

a small—the natural versus farm. The natural is as pretty much 

at a plateau, but farm I understand is going way up. But these natural salmon may be brining in almost as much revenue as the 

farm. It is another supply and demand. Now, I do not want to get 

into an argumentative situation. I am just giving you the perspective somebody that you know provides the revenue for a lot of this, 

but you know has a very different perspective than those of you 

who have salmon in your wonderful river systems. So I will not be 

argumentative as they say and I have said it again I—you know 

these things I am just learning and a lot of you, you all know much 

more than I. I just thought I would share that perspective that is 

all. 

Ms. BRIGHAM. Okay. Just for clarification on the Columbia River 

we do not have farm fish. It is hatchery fish. There is a real difference. There is. 

Mr. COLE. I think I know why they call you Cat. This is kind of 

a cat fight here. Anyway, Ms. McCollum. 

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank St. Catherine’s 

football team. My college alumni is undefeated. That is because we 

do not have one. So I will put my team up against—you know. The 

issues of economic livelihood—we heard about and I would like to 

kind of shift this just a little bit. We heard from some tribes in the 

Dakotas about buffalo and slaughter and access and small business 

support and doing things with the buffalo with the way that they 

are slaughtered and a way that speaks to tribal customs, usage, 

the spirituality, the connection of giving thanks for the buffalo. In 

Minnesota we have buffalo, we have wild rice, we have the issue 

between paddy rice and wild rice which is not even designated. I 

mean, we do not even have in the agriculture area our tribes’ wild 

rice—anything can be called wild rice. So it is protecting the tribe 

making economic recovery and jobs off of that and then we have 

walleye. We have the issue of walleye and tribal rights protecting 

stock for that to come back in force. So if you could talk about that 

for just a few minutes the importance of schools, vocational training, and then having the ladder up with working with the business, 

the economic growth in your tribes. 


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Ms. PIGSLEY. Our tribe is a timber tribe and as we know in the 

Northwest, timber tribes are suffering greatly. If it—to be honest 

with you if it were not for us having a tribal casino and using those 

revenues, we would be in serious trouble with all of our programs, 

our education program and everything that we have. We cut 2.5 

million board feet of timber a year and that does supply the tribe 

with some income, but it is not anywhere near what the revenue 

we get back from our casino operation. And that is how we fund— 

that is what we use to supplement the education program. And I 

mentioned in our testimony it is a good problem to have knowing 

that in 1995 I think we had 35 or 40 students in college and today 

we have 195 students in college. But we are paying the price for 

that by as a self-governance tribe we can move funds around, but 

there is not—we do not even—what we paid just in higher education from our own resources is more than the money that we get 

from the Bureau of Indian Affairs for all the programs. And so because education and because we were a determinate tribe and education is such a high priority we—I mentioned we began a charter 

school. It was a great school and it was because the school district 

was closing the school and they were going to bus kids from Siletz 

to you know 10 miles away. And when they did that with our high 

school students we saw a 75 percent dropout rate. When they got 

to high school they just did not go to school because of the bussing 

and because you could not play in sports and you could not do all 

the other extra-curricular activities. And so we decided we were 

going to keep the school in Siletz and fund it and we funded it out 

of timber—or out of gaming revenues to keep those kids in Siletz. 

And we have seen an extra-ordinary good result in students achieving, graduating, and in meeting the state requirements for whatever level of education and attend—school attendance. So termination was devastating for the tribe. Restoration was extremely— 

an extremely happy time for the tribe, but we have never been 

able—and I think Cheryle mentioned it. We have never been able 

to catch up with those needs that we see. 

Mr. BLYTHE. Mr. Chairman, just back to some of my testimony. 

When we talk about gaming tribes and some of us are very fortunate with locations that we are in and metropolitan areas, major 

corridors, some tribes are not. And so we have to look at the resource that they have to be able to work with. And we have to keep 

Congress and those people that provide funding and the managers 

that do the work are cognizant that this is truly a trust responsibility. And whether you have a casino on your property or not, that 

is what makes you the unique people you are, that land base and 

protecting that land base, enhancing that land base. And at any opportunity for employment I am sure that we can all say that you 

know if we can put a mill back in business with good sustainable 

forestry practices then if it is 50 jobs that is real, that is real to 

a lot of communities and economies. So you know our—the testimony from the Inter-Tribal Timber Council is please look at what 

we need in those areas whether it is Navaho or Warm Springs or 

Yakama, or Menominee to enhance and to grow those businesses 

that are going to enhance and grow the spin off. That is when you 

know a lot of people at home we have a great casino. A lot of our 

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doors doing with their hands as they have always done and getting 

that sense of satisfaction. So you know if we put people in the 

woods thinning and planting and growing the future then they 

have a legacy, their children have a legacy and it builds on and 

continues to build. So you know now it is a lot of philosophy I 

guess, but it is real. It is real to our people that live and work and 

maintain our lives every day. And you know whether it is fire suppression dollars or whether it is forest development dollars or 

whether it is mil enhancement dollars that is what we need. The 

casinos hopefully will be here forever. We do supplement a lot of 

our programs as some of the committee here is aware, but we still 

have those folks and we still have that need. We are a high tourist 

destination with needs of insect disease control, fire suppression as 

many of the other tribes across America are. So—— 

Ms. KENNEDY. I would like to provide a comment also. With the 

Confederated Tribes of Grand Ronde Tour stating we were terminating it, everything was taken away from us. We had no land 

base. Everything that we got we have to buy back. And so we do 

have some timber—not very much, but we do depend upon that. 

We have a casino that has been, you know I say it is divine justice, 

but it too had its great downturn during this economic time and 

we had to cut our budgets by over $2 million for our government 

services. We provide all of our health care, education as many of 

the tribes of the northwest have, but we did hire an economic developer. We are probably one of the biggest employers. We employ 

about 1,500 people for our casino and our motto was to keep them 

at all costs, not to lay off and we did not lay off any during this 

economic down times. We—with our economic development we are 

looking at all kinds of businesses, but we do have some real estate 

property that provides some jobs. Also an economic boost we have 

looked at the medical industry to start working in that area. The 

Siletz Tribe and us have a partnership for developing a property 

there in Salem by the Chemawa School so we are looking at any 

kind of stimulus that can be added to us. We are good partners as 

well as very wise and astute in building businesses. So we see that 

the future is bright and we certainly look forward to any help that 

we can get along the way and education is of course as you hear 

from all tribes. You know I get amazed sometimes we want to build 

institutions to incarcerate our youth and I—and I, too shake my 

head at that thinking that these are children, they need to be 

taught. They need education. There are some that need perhaps 

that stronger hand, but I really—I am a believer in education. 

Mr. COLE. I want to bring us to close because we are running 

way behind schedule and I am going to turn the meeting back over 

to my chairman. I have a meeting upstairs, but I want to note I 

am leaving with my Boise State helmet, my tail between my legs 

and—but I will be planning a rematch for the national title game 

this year because we are going to be very, very good, Mr. Chairman. But anyway. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you very much. 

Mr. COLE. Thank you. Turn it over and call the next panel. 

Mr. SIMPSON [presiding]. Thanks, Tom. The next panel, Joseph 

Pavel, Lawrence LaPointe, Billy Frank, Jr., and Ray Peters. Jim, 


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thanks for having such an interest in wild salmon versus hatchery 

salmon. 

Mr. MORAN. I try to learn. 

Mr. DICKS. You know, no I—well it is interesting that what you 

saw here was a little bit about the debate that has been going on 

for about 40 years that things would go on top of that. I mean, it 

is not to say how much of it is land use, water usury, storm water, 

having all of the—and then you add all of the—yeah and all for 

your hands—in blocking the—at Manchester, Washington we took 

the last of the sock-eye salmon from Red Fish Lake in Idaho and 

did a captive breeding program and restored that run and it is 

amazing. You know things—the farm fish are in pens and they feed 

them just—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. It is like the difference between the free range 

chicken and—— 

Mr. MORAN. There is a difference between wild fish and hatchery 

fish. But you can keep them very close if you take the wild fish and 

use them as brood stock in the hatcheries. So the farm fish—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. Is that right, Billy? 

Mr. FRANK. That is right. Thank you. We got them coming back 

22,000. That is right and 11,000. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Who is first? Who wants to go first? 

Mr. FRANK. I will. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Go ahead. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

SKOKOMISH TRIBAL NATION 

WITNESS 

JOSEPH PAVEL, VICE CHAIRMAN 

Mr. PAVEL. All right, thank you, Mr. Chairman, Representatives 

of the committee. It is my pleasure to be here. I am Joseph Pavel, 

Vice Chairman of the Skokomish Tribe in the Pacific Northwest. I 

was here last year and appreciate all the support and funding we 

got. I would just like to make one note to the written testimony you 

received. On the second page it says we received a 40,000 increase 

in our law enforcement base funding. I would just like to remind 

the committee that we never had any law enforcement funding in 

our base. This was law enforcement funding put into our base. As 

a 638 Tribe, the Skokomish Tribe never did have an enforcement 

program well as a PL874, that is seated our jurisdiction to the 

State so as through self-governance we have been able to out of 

that base direct money toward law enforcement. So we have built 

up program on Cauble together over the years so this 40,000 increase to our funding for law enforcement is a first and really 

appreciate that entirely—a lot. I am sorry. I would just like to emphasize that and we also got a onetime funding for a probation officer and that was a great boon to our program. Our court system, 

we utilize an Inter-Tribal, a traveling court system: Northwest Indian Court system that provides our court and prosecutorial services. And as such without a probation officer or somebody to do administrative work within our local area every time an offender or 


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violator—they had to go to the bench and so we had a huge backlog 

there. So with this probation officer we are able to clear that off. 

We developed a—was able to implement a community service program. We have always had community service as part of the penalty, but nobody to operate it. So that has been a great resource. 

I know that I also function as a Natural Resources Director for the 

Skokomish Tribe. We have been able to use some of those folks. I 

think it looks good for the community to see these people out there 

doing things. That helps the operations that we have this available 

resourcing to be able to put these guys to work and I think it 

makes them feel a lot better to be able to do that. So we also have 

used some of that funding to get a youth specialty in our substance 

abuse treatment programs. That was one of the lacks or gaps that 

we identified last year is that we need to target youth, of course. 

I think you will see and hear that unfortunately law enforcement 

remains our number one priority. Certainly respect and support 

the Administration’s attention and the increases that he has offered up for law enforcement. It is a resource that we need not only 

just to enforce, you know against violations and criminals and so 

forth, but in the interest of public safety we have endeavored and 

strived to work with our law enforcement, our public safety department to think of them—this has got to be a community service. 

This is another community service. We are a service organization. 

These are our clients, our members, and so not—we are trying to 

emphasize that point so that it is important to have these people, 

these resources, these men, these bodies on the ground to have 

some continuity so they get to know their community. That is just 

one of the problems we have had is being able to maintain some 

continuity of staff, some longevity within staff. We need the resources to keep these people interest and keep them on payroll. 

Unfortunately I mentioned the probation officer. Hired a great guy, 

but he is gone. He moved on. I think our neighbors—I think Chehalis Tribe hired him away. And this has been the tribe—as a 

small tribe I am struggling and certainly not having the great 

amount of resources to put in our program. We hire people. We 

train them. They move on. And so it is a constant struggle to maintain some longevity and I think that is a component that we need 

to emphasize so that we can have some community relationship between our staff, our public safety enforcement staff and the community. That being said I think you will note that we do not say 

much about education and social service programs in here, but not 

that it is not a priority, but those are areas that we are able to coddle together other resources. There are funding opportunities out 

there and we have been very aggressive and worked very hard to 

get that and meet those particular needs. 

You have heard from some of the other tribes here with BIA 

Schools and so forth. We do not have a BIA School on our reservation. We do have a state—a school district with a school right in 

the middle, in the heart of our reservation on tribal lands. And 35 

percent of the students to that are tribal members, so our emphasis 

is to try to work with those people as efficiently as possible and try 

to develop that relationship. It has not been good in the past, but 

that is the goal of the tribal council is to develop that relationship 

and work with those folks. 


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Our social services programs as I mentioned we have identified 

the gap with the youth, and the environmental natural resource 

programs we have heard a lot about that here. I certainly would 

anticipate that I could support whatever the Northwest Indian 

Fisheries Commission is going to say there. I would just like to remind you that we are on Hood Canal which is the Jewel of Puget 

Sound. 

[The statement of Joseph Pavel follows:] 


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Mr. DICKS. And it is certainly not a canal. It is a fjord. Right in 

front of the Olympic Mountains, salt water. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Fjord, well that is a foreign word to me. Thank 

you. Frank, you want to go next, Billy? 

Mr. DICKS. I will call it that. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Well, do not worry. I watched a program last night 

where Mount Rainier theoretically blows up and when it does, Seattle and the whole region—that would be bad. 

Mr. FRANK. Mr. Chairman. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

NORTHWESTERN INDIAN FISHERIES COMMISSION 

WITNESSES 

BILLY FRANK, JR., CHAIRMAN 

MIKE GRAYEM 

ED JOHNSTONE 

Mr. FRANK. Mr. Chairman, thank you and honorable members of 

the subcommittee. I am Billy Frank, Chairman Northwest Indian 

Fish Commission. It is indeed a pleasure to be here. Northwest Indian Fish Commission is one of our natural resource managers for 

the tribes, the twenty tribes that we represent and we come back 

here with one voice. You see all of our tribes in here today. And 

we try to talk with one voice to the United States Congress. And 

we have been doing that for the last—now I just had an eightieth 

birthday, so I have been here for a long time and so with me today 

I have my executive director Mike Grayem and my treasurer down 

here Ed Johnstone from Quinault. And so I would like Mike to go 

through this part of the—— 

Mr. GRAYEM. Thank you one and all. I am—Billy has asked me 

to give you a quick thumbnail sketch of the requests that we are 

making. Our biggest interest in the Bureau of Indian Affairs Budget is the rights protection implementation account. These are the 

monies that the government provides the tribes to manage and protect and restore the resources that are vital to the rights that they 

reserved under treaty with the United States. So our biggest first 

priority is we want this account to be maintained at at least the 

fiscal year 2010 enacted levels. In particular the western Washington Fisheries Management Account which is the dollars that 

come to the tribes in the Northwest that are members of our commission. We have been asking for a number of years for an increase 

there of 12 million. In fiscal year 2010, you heard that plea and increased the Rights Protection Account as a whole by 12 million of 

which 3.386 was allocated by the Bureau to Western Washington. 

Those dollars are greatly appreciated. They have allowed us to 

maintain some very important programs, but our needs continue to 

be greater. And so we are asking for an increase of 8.643 which 

would get that total up to the 12 million that we have been asking 

for in total to meet the natural resource management needs of our 

member tribes. 

This is particularly important right now because the State of 

Washington’s budget is being slashed particularly in the realm of 

natural resource management. We just met with the governor’s 


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staff on Friday and learned in particular where those cuts are coming from and in order for the tribes to protect these resources that 

are the basis of their treaty right, they are going to have to do 

more because the State simply cannot do what they have been 

doing. So that is our first request. 

We also request that the Washington State Timber Fish and 

Wildlife line in this Rights Protection Account be maintained at the 

fiscal year 2010 enacted levels. We are also asking for an increase 

in the salmon marking line. I do not want to reenergize the debate 

that occurred here a few moments ago with—but we, the Northwest Tribes have a—well the whole Northwest Fish Hatcher system is the largest in the world between state, tribal, and federal. 

And under the congressional mandate to mark hatchery production 

that is funded by federal dollars we are doing that but we—marking is only part of what is required. We have got two problems. We 

are not—we do not have the resources to continue marking the increased production that is occurring and we need additional money 

to address the issues that result from marking the fish. And so we 

are marking the fish for a purpose. One of those purposes is to be 

able to identify hatchery and wild fish and so you can deal with 

them separately. Another purpose they are being put to is marked 

selected fisheries and those require additional funds to do the analysis, do the monitoring, to basically utilize those mass marks. And 

so that is where our request of additional 1.4 million comes in. 

And then the last issue under Rights Protection is the U.S. Canada Pacific Salmon Treaty. We support the request that is being 

made by the Pacific, the United States section of the Pacific Salmon Commission for an increase of 694,000 to this account which 

supports the Northwest Columbia River and Matlakatla Tribe and 

Alaska’s participation in that treaty and the responsibilities. 

The last issue on the BIA is the Fish, Wildlife, and Parks Account and particularly the fish hatchery maintenance. We were 

very pleased with the Administration’s increase to this account and 

we fully support what the Administration has put into the budget. 

This is a really important account to the tribes to maintain their 

aging hatchery facilities and will be put to great use. 

And then lastly EPA—we are generally pleased with what we 

saw in the budget by the Administration. We want to mention our 

support for the Tribal General Assistance Program (GAP). That 

money is used by all the tribes nationwide to support capacity 

building and partnership with EPA. In addition to that, the President’s budget has a new initiative called a Multimedia Tribal Implementation Grant Program. We are very excited about this. It is 

in the budget for 20 million and we fully support that. We have 

been working with EPA to try to identify how we move beyond the 

capacity building and actually implementing this environmental 

program partnership of EPA and we see this as the funding avenue 

to allow us to do that. 

And then lastly but not least is restoring the geographic program 

and clean of Puget Sound to the 50 million level that was enacted 

in 2010. This is an extremely important program to everybody in 

the Northwest to restore Puget Sound, recover salmon, and I do not 

think I need to say more because Congressman Dicks—— 


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Mr. DICKS. Well, the Chairman has been very helpful on this, 

too. We are doing our best. It is very difficult. 

Mr. JOHNSTONE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I come here as a 

piece of this delegation. One, as a treasurer of the Northwest Indian Fish Commission and two, as an actual Fisheries Manager for 

the Quinault Indian Nation of which I am a member. And I just 

wanted to stress the importance of the Western Washington Bold 

Account and those funds are really the core of the base funding for 

all of our Fisheries Programs. It is a very important funding source 

and it is actually tied to the U.S. v. Washington Case. The judge 

wrote certain requirements in the decision and to comply with 

those decisions the Western Washington Account was created by 

Congress to fulfill those court orders. 

So as other decisions have come down since then like the 

Rafeedie Decision, those decisions did not include the funding to 

execute the rights that were affirmed in those court cases. So our 

duties and responsibilities went up tremendously and our funding 

level stayed at 1970’s levels. And so this request that you see here 

is an attempt at us to reflect those duties and responsibilities in 

the current inflationary costs and so forth that would get us to the 

basis for being able to just carry on the requirements under those 

court decisions. 

Mr. FRANK. Mr. Chairman, I just want to thank you for coming 

and letting us speak today. And we know that it is a difficult time 

for all of you to be looking at this budget. You know our—we are 

the Treaty Tribes throughout the Northwest and throughout all of 

our country, you know and we fought determination as you heard 

here a little while ago and we finally got everybody back on line. 

And you know we are just support each other. Thank you. 

[The statement of Billy Frank, Jr. follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Next. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

PUYALLUP TRIBE 

WITNESS 

LAWRENCE W. LAPOINTE, VICE CHAIRMAN 

Mr. LAPOINTE. I am next. Mr. Chairman, thank you for allowing 

me to speak on behalf of the Tribe of Puyallup. My name is Lawrence LaPoint, Vice Chairman. Puyallup Tribe, we do have an education facility. We represent 4,260 Puyallup Tribal members plus 

about 25,000 relocated members of other tribes—355, almost half 

of the tribes of the United States. 

The President’s budget increase of 2.4 billion for Indian Programs, operations of Indian Programs is 23.7 million above 2010 

levels. Same with 4.6 billion for IHS which is rated 571.4 billion— 

million and the Puyallup Tribe would like to see that increase 

looked at as a base funding and start next year. And then if that 

is possible, I do not know. I mean, there are a lot of things to be 

looking at. We are one of 20 tribes that received arrow funding to 

create a correctional facility on our reservation but that is like enabled unfunded mandate as far as we are concerned because we 

can build a building but where are the funds to operate it? So we 

are asking Congress to support our request for annual budget of 

1.3 million to operate the facility. 

The natural resources—I do not think I have to reiterate what 

Billy and the rest of them said from Northwest Indian Fish Commission. It needs to be maintained. Our education—the budget request for 795 million for education is a decrease of 3.8 million from 

current levels and we have a population 910 students in our school 

system. And it is slowly growing. You can say location, location, location as far as the casino. We are successful, but I think we are 

one of the few casinos in the country because we did not take an 

economic hit like Wolf’s—did. And we are able to supplement a lot 

of programs. 

But I do not believe there is any tribe in this country that is selfsufficient to the point where we can assume whatever we receive 

from the federal government to provide services to our membership 

plus the other natives that are within our service area. So and then 

we have a school that was—is not complete yet. The Bureau did 

not provide funding to complete the auditorium which probably 

now—it was 800,000 at the time and I believe it is about 1.4 million now. 

And we, you know there was a mention of education for secondary students and we have put approximately 250 tribal members through college and they are working throughout the country. 

Transportation—we are recommending that the transportation not 

be changed from the current formula because as Congressman 

Dicks knows we are a very urban tribe. We do have access to natural resource areas and we need to be able to maintain those access roads with cooperation with the county as well as I think Hancock knows where the fish ladder is. 


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Mr. DICKS. Ron Puyallup. 

Mr. LAPOINTE. Ron Puyallup, yeah. I read about boarding. So we 

are recommending that. And the same with contracts for it. We 

would like to see that covered 100 percent so that when we get new 

grants and contracts that we are able to handle them. 

And then last but not least I guess non-BIA Internal Revenue 

Service. And we are getting attacked in all different ways from IRS 

and in regards to—even native made materials that we have to 

send 1099’s to our tribal members and most native created like 

hand carvings is not taxable. I do not know. 

Mr. SIMPSON. That is different. We will look into that. 

Mr. LAPOINTE. Thank you. 

[The statement of Lawrence W. LaPointe follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Our agency. Thank you. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

SQUAXIN ISLAND TRIBE 

WITNESS 

RAY PETERS, INTER-GOVERNMENTAL LIAISON TO THE TRIBAL COUNCIL 

Mr. PETERS. On behalf of the Squaxin Island Tribe leadership 

and the citizens of the tribe, I am honored to be here to submit our 

budget request for 2012. Much of the written testimony that I am 

submitting here is detailed, but really want to talk about a tribal 

specific program that the Squaxin Island Tribe runs. We are in the 

lower Puget Sound. We are next to our brothers and sisters of the 

Skokomish Tribe, but we are on the Sound, not the—what is that 

word you used? The refora—— 

Mr. SIMPSON. Fjord. 

Mr. PETERS. Refera. Yes. The Squaxin Island Tribe is the largest 

employer in Mason County Sixth Congressional District and we 

run the Northwest Indian Treatment Center that is a regional facility that is very effective and efficiently run. And that base budget was established in a Congressional set aside in 1993, and we are 

at a point where we in the past have been able to piece together 

that budget by using State funds, county funds. We are state accredited. We are nationally accredited through CARF, but with the 

climate in the States some of those funds are going away and our 

base budget has not been increased since that initial set aside. We are requesting an increase in our base budget of $1 million. 

It is a program that the tribe has put many resources in as well 

we have been very effective in our capabilities of third party billing, going after grants, and other outside funding to be able to 

piece together that budget. But we are in a critical need here to 

be able to continue the services that we provide and the efficiency 

is outstanding. Not only do we service the Oregon, Idaho, Washington, but we have tribes seeking out and sending tribal members 

to us across the nation as far away as Florida. 

And so that is an area that is at the utmost importance. We have 

been able to increase the treatment in regards to behavioral health 

and also psychiatric services as well. Without that increase in funding we will need to start to cut back our services and that would 

be a shame. That would be an impact on all the tribes of the Northwest, but also as well to the State as well. 

As I said, all the specifics that the other tribes have talked about 

that are very important, the budget detail is in the written testimony so I will not take up your time in regards to reviewing most 

of those things that have already been discussed today. I will say 

that we fully support affiliated tribes in Northwest Indian’s recommendations, Northwest Indian Fish Commission recommendations as well as the National Congress of American Indians, Northwest Indian Health Board, and as well the National Indian Health 

Board. Thank you for your time and I just want to close by saying 

Norm, we do take all of our fish as well as Squaxin Island Tribe. 


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It is very important. Our fisheries department and the habitat 

issues are very important to us as well. Thank you. 

[The statement of Ray Peters follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. I will turn it over to Norm since this 

is kind of a Washington delegation. And let me say for all of you 

that you know that the reason that the budget for BIA and Indian 

Health Services and the Education Department at the BIA was the 

increases that have occurred over the last several years have been 

primarily due to Norm. When he was chairman of this committee 

he did a fantastic job. While I had differences with my Democratic 

colleagues on some things, it is one of the areas where I really appreciated the work that he did in working with him and we fortunately have been able to continue that under both Mr. Moran and 

under myself to—it is very important to all of us, but it started 

with Norm. 

Mr. DICKS. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman for that very kind remark and Tom Cole, who was chairing here, has been a tremendous supporter. And we are faced with some very difficult times 

coming ahead here in terms of having to make some cuts in the 

budget. And you know we tried to minimize the damage this year 

on 2011, but 2012 you know initially is going to be very difficult. 

Hopefully at the end of the process we can work out compromises 

and protect some of these most sensitive programs. Who do you 

apply to? Do you go to the Indian Health Service or the Portland 

Office for this million? Because you know we cannot do earmarks 

now. So you know I do not know if I did this earmark. Was it my 

earmark or was it Senator Murry’s or—— 

Mr. PETERS. Set aside, yes. 

Mr. DICKS. Yeah, so see you are going to have to find a program 

in the department where you can go and apply for funding and we 

will try to help you. So that is really going to be the one or if there 

is an account that we can plus up without specificity because they 

have to make the decisions then those are the ways we could help 

you. 

Mr. PETERS. Yeah, and we are hoping—our hope is that the increase that the IHS budget is hopefully going to see that some of 

those dollars can be directed to the treatment center. And again, 

we appreciate your help and the influence that you have made—— 

Mr. DICKS. You are applying though? 

Mr. PETERS. Yes. 

Mr. DICKS. Do you know when they have their application time 

frame and all that? 

Mr. PETERS. We are meeting with the director. In fact we had a 

conflict. The director is actually at Self-Governance Conference 

right now. And so some of our leadership is there as well. 

Mr. DICKS. Well, Pete Modaff can help you on this and again we 

are going to try to do the best we can. I mean, Billy, this is as 

tough a year as I have seen. 

Mr. FRANK. Oh yeah. 

Mr. SIMPSON. So we will just try to work with the Chairman and 

do the best we can and at the end of the day it I—it will not be 

as quite as bad. The House is going to make some very serious cuts 

and we—and but there will be a process. The Senate will go in and 

then we have conferences and you know we will do our best to protect these sensitive programs. 

Mr. FRANK. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Appreciate it. Thank you all for being here today. 


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Mr. FRANK. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMPSON. You bet. Sheri Lee Williams, Fawn Sharp, Brian 

Patterson, and Ryland Bowechop, and T.J. Greene. Ready? Who 

wants to start? Would you like to start? Go ahead. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

QUINAULT INDIAN NATION 

WITNESS 

FAWN SHARP, PRESIDENT 

Ms. SHARP. Sure. I will start. Good morning. Chairman, members 

of the committee. On behalf of the Quinault Indian Nation, my 

name is Fawn Sharp. I am honored and pleased to be here today. 

I would like to begin my remarks by lending our support in our 

written testimony. Many of the issues that have been raised already today by other tribes we would like to draw your attention 

to both the IHS and BIA are recommendations that we do support 

before I get into the tribal specific requests. 

Our first tribal specific request relates to the Blueback Restoration Project. This is a project that the Quinault Nation undertook 

a number of years ago in terms of planning the Upper Quinault 

Watershed that had been destroyed at the turn of the century and 

we have undertaken an effort to start phase one to restore the ecosystem and this is a project that we are extremely proud to take 

the lead in. We have been working with the residence of the Upper 

Quinault, State agencies, the counties, and federal agencies, so this 

is truly an example of governmental entities coming together with 

nonprofits and private citizenry to restore habitat that will most 

certainly provide an opportunity for us to bring back the Blueback 

Sockeye Salmon. It is a prized run that is unique to the Quinault 

Watershed. So we are very happy to continue with that effort. 

We are moving into phase II of that project and we are seeking 

seven million that we will apply toward phase II. And we are pursuing a number of funding sources to reach that goal. But we have 

invested roughly $150,000 at this point into the basic planning for 

that project and we will pursue private funding as well as state 

and federal funding. So we wanted to report our success there and 

I urge this committee to support our continued efforts as we get 

into phase II of that project. 

The second issue that I would like to draw your attention to is 

the Quinault Nation’s Comprehensive Strategic Drug Strategy. I 

have been here the last three years talking about our drug strategy 

at the Quinault Nation. This year we have added a unique component to that strategy that relates to national security and this is 

an issue that I really want to stress to the committee. 

Over the course of the last year the Tribal Council task me with 

putting together a comprehensive approach to address an operating 

budget and strategy to step up enforcement. As I began to work 

into this issue I realized that the level of need is much greater 

than I ever imagined. I had reports that a tribal elder was driving 

from Akai home to Taholah through one of the logging roads and 

noticed a low flying helicopter out in the middle of a logging road 


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after midnight with—surrounded by cars. And a big spotlight and 

we know they were not having a picnic out in the middle of the 

woods on an abandoned logging road. I also receive reports from 

our crabbing fleet that they notice while crabbing this last year 

what appeared to be a mother vessel and a small high speed vessel 

traveling four or five trips at 45 knots an hour. I am not a nautical 

person, but I am told that 45 knots an hour is quite fast. 

About two weeks ago our general manager of Quinault Land and 

Timber Enterprise who has been working in the woods for 30 years 

was in the northern part of our reservation near lands held by a 

non-Indian logging company Anderson and Middleton. They own 

about 11,000 acres to the northern part of our reservation. They 

noticed a newer model Mercedes Benz, black Mercedes again out 

in the middle of a logging road where they have no business conducting any activity. And at my last tribal council meeting, I 

stayed after hours and I was there until about three o’clock in the 

morning burning the midnight oil and returning from Taholah to 

Lake Quinault which requires me to travel up to the Moclips Highway, and I noticed a two trailer semi going into the interior part 

of our reservation off the Moclips Highway at 3:30 in the morning. 

So again, this is an issue that is absolutely critical to the Nation. 

The law enforcement that needs and Border Patrol protection 

needs that we see to effectively combat this problem clearly transcend BIA funding. And we are working with the Director of National Intelligence, Homeland Security, and the military to see 

what we might be able to do to step up that effort at the Quinault 

Nation. 

So with my last 20 seconds, we do have an emergency preparedness request that we have set forth in detail as well as funding related to our forest management plan. But the most critical need 

that we have realized this last year does relate to drug and security protection issues. We have 27 miles of international border 

that is not being patrolled today by the Border Patrol Agency. So 

thank you. 

[The statement of Fawn Sharp follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Sheri. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

LUMMI INDIAN BUSINESS COUNCIL 

WITNESS 

SHERI LEE WILLIAMS, COUNCILWOMAN 

Ms. WILLIAMS. Yes, good afternoon and I am very honored to be 

here today. I am a Lummi Nation Tribal Councilwoman. Also, I am 

the treasurer of the Lummi Commercial Company, and I also attend the Department of Interior Tribal Budgeting on a quarterly 

basis, and I am with the Department Area Indian Health Board. 

And so Mr. chairman, I am really honored to be here and present 

to the distinguished group of committee members today the appropriation priorities for the Lummi Nation for the upcoming 2012 

budgets for the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the Indian Health 

Services. 

And bullet points, our specific request of the Bureau of Indian 

Affairs are—we are requesting for $2 million for Phase I. This is 

a new water supply system for our fish hatcheries, construction operation, and maintenance. Funding will be directed to increase the 

hatchery production, and make up for the shortfall we are experiencing in our wild salmon there in the Pacific Northwest. I would 

like to direct the BIA to work with the Lummi Nation and we can 

work together and increase our hatchery construction operations 

and maintenance funding, and direct the Department of Interior to 

fully fund the Indian Energy and Economic Development Workforce 

Development Division to continue its job training, development, 

work that has resulted in jobs. 

Turning to the Indian Health Service we are requesting funds for 

a community based aids and HIV rapid testing system. And additionally, I know this is a large amount, but we are getting desperate because we are looking—we think it will take $4 million and 

that is what we are requesting to combat the drug epidemic not 

only in the Lummi community but those communities around us. 

Regional requests, the Lummi Nation is requesting that this 

committee support the affiliated tribes of the Northwest, Department Area Indian Health Board, the National Indian Health Board 

and the Northwest Indian Fish Commission. Nationally in the 

budgeting area the TPA—we are requesting an $82.9 million increase, a general increase. And this is just 10 percent over the 2010 

funding level. I would like to reiterate what those before me that 

sat at this table have said about the contract support costs. 

We would like to have provided an additional $50 million increase to BIA and $112 million to the Indian Health Service to 

fully fund the contract support costs including the direct contract 

support costs and provide $5 million for the Indian Self-Determination Fund. Law enforcement, tribal courts, tribal detention facilities 

provide $30 million over the 2010 levels that were funded. And 

education provides $24.3 million to fully restore the Johnson 

O’Malley Fund. And increase the funding for the Office of Self-GovVerDate Mar 15 2010 04:23 Jun 30, 2011 Jkt 066982 PO 00000 Frm 00616 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A982P2.XXX A982P2

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ernance to fully fund the staff and support the requests of NTAI 

and the National Indian Health Board. 

You know our Lummi Nation is located in the Northwest with 

5,200 tribal employees and we have drawn our physical and spiritual sustenance from the marine tidelands. And our fisheries are 

trying to survive. Because the salmon are gone our fishers are trying to survive on shellfish and that is not good because in 1999 we 

had 700 licenses fishers who supported nearly 3,000 tribal members and to date we have about 523. So that means that we have 

lost over 200 small businesses, more families because it takes more 

than one person to fish on a boat. We have really lost a significant 

amount of revenue which caused a lot of depression in our community. And so specific requests to the Bureau again I reiterate the $2 

million. This is for the water supply system and that is for our 

hatcheries. $300,000 for the Natural Resources law enforcement, 

and we have 1,846 square miles of marine area that our enforcement officers have to serve and 9,100 square miles of seeded lands 

that they serve. And that goes all the way from the U.S. Canadian 

border all the way to Mount St. Helens and throughout that whole 

area. We have to protect everything. That is our national resources 

and there again, I think I have kind of summarized it all, and so 

thank you very much. 

[The statement of Sheri Lee Williams follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Ryland. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

MAKAH TRIBAL COUNCIL 

WITNESS 

RYLAND BOWECHOP 

Mr. BOWECHOP. First of all, Mr. Chairman, we would like to associate and support the comments submitted by the Portland Area 

Indian Heath Board Inter-Tribal Timber Council, Northwest Fish 

Commission, and we would like to touch on three points. The first 

need for assistance for improvements of our jail. Mr. Modaff has 

been there. He knows that it is in pretty rough shape. 

Mr. DICKS. To visit. 

Mr. BOWECHOP. I am going to let that one float. Desire to deepen 

the harbor at Neah Bay for economic development, also to utilize 

that harbor for oil spill prevention on the coast. Any assistance 

from the federal government for helping us close the warm-house 

dump. It is an open landfill that we have been working to close for 

a number of years now and we are going to do it with your assistance. 

As I stated, the jail is in pretty bad shape. We understand the 

moratorium that is in place on earmarks and we are working closely with staff to start filling out grant applications to justice departments, coordinated tribal assistance. And that is going fairly well. 

We always appreciate the letters of support. We are committed to 

improving the harbor in Neah Bay to help our economic development efforts. We are interested for example in shipping aggregate 

materials from our sand and gravel pit for use in regional construction projects. We were unsuccessful in our effort to secure Tiger 

Grants for waterfront planning and for replacing our dock, but we 

will continue to press our efforts. 

We were disturbed to learn that the Administration has proposed 

to cut in half harbor maintenance in low use harbors as part of its 

2012 budget request. In our case we want to deepen our harbor to 

greatly increase use of our harbor for the good of our community 

and the economy of our region. The shallow draft in Neah Bay harbor also poses a threat to marine safety. We have rescue tugs stationed in our harbor and other response vessels also called there. 

When the tide is low these vessels often are difficult in entering 

and exiting the marina. 

Makah Tribe has taken aggressive steps to address the serious 

environmental and health risks posed by the warm-house beach 

dump, a decades old landfill located on the reservation that was 

used by the U.S. Department of Defense and other federal agencies 

to dispose of hazardous waste. The dump is leeching harmful 

chemicals into a nearby stream which flows into the pristine 

waters of the Straits of Juan de Fuca, a traditional shell fishing location for the Makah people. 

Frequent fires at the dump contribute to air pollution in the 

town of Neah Bay and the reservation community. Closing the 

dump is the Makah Council’s top environmental priority. If any of 


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those chemicals get into the ocean it will not matter if the fish are 

clipped, unclipped, tagged, or untagged. They will be in bad shape. 

The tribe has documented that the Air Force which supported 

radar operations at Behokah’s Peak from World War II through 

1988 disposed of many hazardous substances at the dump since its 

opening in the 1970s including asbestos, batteries, pesticides, 

paints, and waste oil. Other federal agencies also disposed of their 

waste at the dump. 

As a result of this legacy of waste disposal on tribal land, the federal government bears substantial responsibility for cleaning up 

the dump and preventing further exposure of the reservation community to the environment. Makah tribe has taken action to secure 

federal assistance for closing the dump through negotiations with 

Defense Department or possibly through the Federal Superfund 

Program. We have waited many years and tried many avenues to 

close this dump. We believe that our latest actions are a necessary 

last resort to protect the health of our citizens. We would appreciate this subcommittee’s support of our efforts. 

My written testimony also discusses other issues including the 

need to provide adequate contract support costs and the importance 

of tribal consultation regarding expansion of the Olympic National 

Park. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee. 

[The statement of Ryland Bowechop follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. Brian. 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011. 

UNITED SOUTH AND EASTERN TRIBES, INC. 

WITNESS 

BRIAN PATTERSON, PRESIDENT 

Mr. PATTERSON. I say those words more for my benefit as I sit 

here with you. It is a greeting for peace, power, and righteousness 

of a good heart and a good mind as we greet the day. And so I say 

it for my benefit because we have been here before. I just came 

from a meeting where I first attended in 1994 and the issues have 

not changed and the approach has not changed and it is more of 

the same from Indian Country. At that 1994 meeting Chairman 

from the Northwest Ron Alan, who I called the Tireless Warrior, 

was giving a presentation and he was begging and pleading to not 

cut my TPA monies and it is the same issue today. 

And so I think it requires a fresh approach from Indian Country 

to establish our agenda and begin to have those critical conversations to identify the need to advance those leadership to those critical issues. Certainly every issue I have heard in the past today— 

and I thought Indian folks were tough because we could sit in our 

council meetings all day and we could sit in ceremonies all day, but 

you guys I think might have us beat. I think you guys are tough. 

And so it is—— 

Mr. DICKS. You should look at H.R. 1. 

Mr. PATTERSON. I will tell you. I will tell you. And but it is good 

to be in front of you. My English name is Brian Patterson. I have 

served my people for 20 years, Bear Clan Representative Oneidas 

Nation in New York. Congressman Dicks, I am in your territory 

now living in the State of Washington, the Northwest. It kind of 

feels like home, you know, to see this home away from home. We 

are longhouse people there—longhouse people. So I represent my 

people as Bear Clan Representative on council for 20 years. I am 

also President of the United South and Eastern Tribes, 26 federally 

recognized tribes, Texas to Florida, up to Maine. Certainly we have 

our issues. Chairman Simpson, I would like to recognize your leadership, the veteran leadership of this committee. Where would Indian Country be if we did not have that leadership in place? 

But my concern and my thought is Indian Country really needs 

to demonstrate our capabilities to manage these issues and move 

them forward. I think as every issue I have heard today is paramount and the key to our survival. Education, health care, natural 

resource stewardship, the care take and culture heritage, our sovereignty, are our fundamental foundations that Indian Country has 

identified and advanced the need for countless generations. 

So they are all priority issues. There is no one greater than the 

other. For United South and Eastern Tribes our top priority remains a clean legislative of—and I wish to recognize the work you 

did and the leadership this committee brought forward to push in 

last year a bipartisan approach to that as well as Congressman 

Cole’s continued push and introduction this year. So we give our— 


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express gratitude to the work the committee is doing to bring a 

clean resolve to—that is our top priority. 

As well as joining the rest of Indian Country in myriad of issues 

that are priority issues for us. I would like to just take a moment. 

Last time I sat with you guys—let me wrap on—has led to historical effort in my opinion—in the work that you did with the rest 

of Indian Country has put together a letter and I am going to have 

this resent to your staff so you can take a look at it. Really a historical letter where we have 25 Inter-Tribal organizations putting 

their signature on this to say this is a priority issue. In my life I 

have not seen an example of that. 

But I think so I want to resend that to you and I kind of lost 

my place. I would much rather have my time in conversation with 

Indian Country and advancing our priorities, but I would make 

this point to you is that when we look at issues such as emergency 

response, those type of issues in my comment to the committee the 

last time I sat before you was that Indian Country needs to stand 

for Indian Country. We will find ways to assist and advance Indian 

Country priorities from within and we have begun that process. As 

an example, ATNI, Affiliated Tribes Northwest Indians, and USET 

signed a covenant. In part of that covenant is to address the common areas of priorities. A week and a half ago we had a historic 

tax summit hosted by the Miccosuki Band. National tribal leader 

meeting ATNI joined us. We invited them to join us and so we are 

taking charge of our agenda, becoming proactive. I think we owe 

it to the Joe Dellacrus, Divine Delorious, the Wendell Chinos, the 

Billy Franks who said—Billy Frank has a great quote where he 

says do not get tired. There is too much work to be done. We can 

sleep when we leave this earth. Too much work to be done. So I 

have been to every State in the Union. 

I am now living in Washington State for two years. I followed my 

wife out in—we live in Spokane and I must say that it is the most 

beautiful State. And if Mount Rainier is a little too much for you, 

go to Yellowstone. But it is the most beautiful State. Quinault, 

Averred, Nisqually, Makah, it is just very awesome territory. And 

Congressman Dicks, there is a great book out by a Pulitzer prize 

winner that talked about your first governor and the atrocities and 

his approach in New York—in Washington State. Bittercreek it is 

called—an interesting read. 

Mr. DICKS. I will get it. 

Mr. PATTERSON. Yeah, it is an interesting read. But thank you. 

I think Indian country needs to be proactive in our own agenda 

rather than reactive from a D.C. landscape. And USET is leading 

that charge within Indian Country. Thank you for your time. 

Thank you for your veteran leadership. 

[The statement of Brian Patterson follows:] 


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Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. I am shocked to hear that you have 

been to every State in the Union. You got that close to Idaho and 

chose Spokane. I mean, that—you know you could have been like 

20 miles over and you could have been in God’s country. 

Mr. PATTERSON. Idaho is right out my picture window. 

Mr. SIMPSON. I spent last week in Coeur d’Alene, in Spokane and 

did some things in Spokane. 

Mr. DICKS. You can see it where you walk. 

Mr. PATTERSON. And that is all I want. 

Mr. DICKS. From your front window. From your front door. 

Mr. PATTERSON. That is all I want. 

Mr. DICKS. No, I did a trail with Speaker Foley that goes from 

Spokane right to the border. So maybe you can just keep it going, 

Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Well, that is what needs to happen. I said I spent 

last week in Spokane and Coeur d’Alene and a little bit in Seattle, 

but beautiful country. 

Mr. PATTERSON. Beautiful country. 

Mr. SIMPSON. It really is. 

Mr. DICKS. We did the world’s fair in 1974 ‘‘Man living and playing in his environment.’’ 

Mr. SIMPSON. I went to it. 

Mr. DICKS. I did the staff work for Senator Magnusson on that 

and the railroads gave us some great land. And Spokane has got 

one of the great features is a water fall right in the city. Where 

do you get that? I mean that is pretty neat. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Do you have questions? 

Mr. DICKS. I just wanted to say this is going to be a very difficult 

year. As you heard what I said before the budget resolution calls 

for more cuts in discretionary spending and we are discretionary 

spending. I am hoping that we can come to some agreement before 

we get to this debt ceiling vote where we can lay out a program 

that includes all aspects of the budget. But the other thing I got 

to tell you is we cannot do earmarks. So a lot of these things that 

we used to be able to do at least for the time being we are not able 

to do. So you are going to have to get the Obama Administration 

to put the critical things in they have to be in the President’s budget. And that does not mean it is going to be enacted, but at least 

you have a fighting chance if it is in the President’s budget. And 

so I just give you that advice. You know I have been here a long 

time and I have been on this subcommittee a long time and these 

are important programs. And the Indian Health Service, the BIA, 

law enforcement, education, higher education, you know these 

things are very, very important and the programs for your natural 

resources also are important. 

You know we will do our best, but you know I think we have got 

to pick ourselves up and go find ways to do these things. And there 

are a lot of programs. I mean there is a lot of money still there that 

you can apply for. It is going to take people you know instead of 

just coming to Congress for earmarks. You are going to have to go 

to these agencies and work hard to try to get your projects funded 

that way. That is my advice. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Well, and I will just echo what Norm said. It is 

going to be a tough year and one of the things we find out through 


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all these hearings while there are—you know it is kind of like the 

States. We always say no two States are the same. No two tribes 

really are the same. It is interesting to hear from the testimony 

that there are general issues that affect all the tribes, whether it 

is contract support and fully funding that or whether it is some of 

the other issues, but each tribe has unique issues to their tribe and 

that is what is kind of interesting to me. And as we have tried to 

address them in the past as Norm said through some of the earmarking process, we do not have that availability. Norm and I have 

been on the other side of that issue and unfortunately we have lost 

so far. But we are coming back. But we are more than willing to 

help you as we can when you have requests from the agencies if 

there are things we can do to help you out be sure and let us know 

because some of those unique issues on—that different tribes have 

are very important obviously. 

Mr. DICKS. I just want to say one thing. The last time the Republican Party won the election back in ’94, they did away with this 

hearing. I want to complement the Chairman, now that they are 

in the Majority, for having this hearing so that we, the members 

have a chance, and the tribes have a chance to come in and really 

tell us what the situation is. And I complement you for doing that. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thanks. 

Mr. DICKS. It takes time, but I think it is time well spent. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. I appreciate that. And it is—as I said 

at the end of last week or whenever it was when we had the public 

witness testimony, other individuals that came in and testified on 

other things within the Interior budget, sometimes I suspect people 

come in and they wonder if this really makes a difference. You 

spend a few minutes talking to us about—and I mean it is hard 

to wrap up everything in five minutes. It does make a difference 

because when we start to write a budget what you have said influences what we are able to do or what we know the need is. So 

while you may sometimes wonder how important this is, it really 

is important to us. So we do appreciate you taking the time to come 

in and talk to us and we will be doing this again next year and 

talking about hopefully not the same issues, but we will have addressed some of them. 

Mr. PATTERSON. Did I mention—costs nothing. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Yeah, it is and I appreciate you bringing that up. 

Mr. Cole was obviously very interested in resolving that as are 

many of us. We had it in the bill last year that just did not survive 

at the end. The CR at the end and—— 

Mr. DICKS. Yeah, this has to be fixed. 

Mr. SIMPSON [continuing]. It has got to be fixed and we are going 

to be working on it, so—— 

Mr. PATTERSON. Indian Country may need an area of additional 

support from you to us. We are looking—we have a long term priority to reexamine the trust relationship, the trust platform from 

an Indian country point of view which in my hope will lead to Indian Country defining self-determination from our expectation and 

our vantage—our value. And so one step in that direction would be 

to develop an orientation for all new members coming in to sit 

down. You said as interested in pursuing this. We have a number 

of resources at Harvard through their executive program. I am an 


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alumni. My nation representative is an alumni. We have other 

chiefs, so we have resources. My nation sponsored a $3 million 

chair for the Harvard Indian Law Program. So we have resources 

and relationships there. We would like to work to develop that. 

And why I say that is because this Country should be outraged 

by the usage of the word Geronimo with Bin Laden. You know they 

could have called it anything else, but they equate it to one our national heroes and there is tolerance for that. Mayor Bloomberg in 

New York City, get your cowboy hat. He told the New York State 

Governor, get your cowboy hat, get your cowboy boots, and get your 

shotgun, and get on through and get those tags from those Indians. 

The President golfed with him two weeks later. Not a word was 

said. If it was any other ethnic group, special interest, minority, 

there would be an outrage. But Indian country in our trust relationship we need to develop that relationship where we can have 

advocates who are outraged by this. My Seminole Tribe was equated to Al Qaeda tactics. It was silent. There was no response. 

Mr. DICKS. I know. I am very glad you brought that up. I am on 

the Defense Subcommittee—— 

Mr. PATTERSON. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. DICKS [continuing]. And I will raise this with the appropriate 

officials in the department. 

Mr. PATTERSON. We would welcome that critical dialogue. 

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you all for being here today and thanks for 

attending the hearings. 


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735 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1625 here 66982C.173
736 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1626 here 66982C.174
737 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1627 here 66982C.175
738 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1628 here 66982C.176
739 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1629 here 66982C.177
740 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1630 here 66982C.178
741 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1631 here 66982C.179
742 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1632 here 66982C.180
743 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1633 here 66982C.181
744 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1634 here 66982C.182
745 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1635 here 66982C.183
746 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1636 here 66982C.184
747 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1637 here 66982C.185
748 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1638 here 66982C.186
749 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1639 here 66982C.187
750 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1640 here 66982C.188
751 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1641 here 66982C.189
752 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1642 here 66982C.190
753 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1643 here 66982C.191
754 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1644 here 66982C.192
755 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1645 here 66982C.193
756 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1646 here 66982C.194
757 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1647 here 66982C.195
758 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1648 here 66982C.196
759 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1649 here 66982C.197
760 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1650 here 66982C.198
761 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1651 here 66982C.199
762 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1652 here 66982C.200
763 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1653 here 66982C.201
764 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1654 here 66982C.202
765 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1655 here 66982C.203
766 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1656 here 66982C.204
767 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1657 here 66982C.205
768 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1658 here 66982C.206
769 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1659 here 66982C.207
770 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1660 here 66982C.208
771 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1661 here 66982C.209
772 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1662 here 66982C.210
773 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1663 here 66982C.211
774 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1664 here 66982C.212
775 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1665 here 66982C.213
776 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1666 here 66982C.214
777 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1667 here 66982C.215
778 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1668 here 66982C.216
779 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1669 here 66982C.217
780 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1670 here 66982C.218
781 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1671 here 66982C.219
782 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1672 here 66982C.220
783 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1673 here 66982C.221
784 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1674 here 66982C.222
785 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1675 here 66982C.223
786 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1676 here 66982C.224
787 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1677 here 66982C.225
788 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1678 here 66982C.226
789 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1679 here 66982C.227
790 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1680 here 66982C.228
791 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1681 here 66982C.229
792 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1682 here 66982C.230
793 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1683 here 66982C.231
794 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1684 here 66982C.232
795 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1685 here 66982C.233
796 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1686 here 66982C.234
797 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1687 here 66982C.235
798 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1688 here 66982C.236
799 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1689 here 66982C.237
800 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1690 here 66982C.238
801 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1691 here 66982C.239
802 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1692 here 66982C.240
803 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1693 here 66982C.241
804 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1694 here 66982C.242
805 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1695 here 66982C.243
806 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1696 here 66982C.244
807 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1697 here 66982C.245
808 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1698 here 66982C.246
809 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1699 here 66982C.247
810 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1700 here 66982C.248
811 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1701 here 66982C.249
812 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1702 here 66982C.250
813 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1703 here 66982C.251
814 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1704 here 66982C.252
815 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1705 here 66982C.253
816 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1706 here 66982C.254
817 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1707 here 66982C.255
818 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1708 here 66982C.256
819 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1709 here 66982C.257
820 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1710 here 66982C.258
821 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1711 here 66982C.259
822 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1712 here 66982C.260
823 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1713 here 66982C.261
824 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1714 here 66982C.262
825 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1715 here 66982C.263
826 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1716 here 66982C.264
827 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1717 here 66982C.265
828 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1718 here 66982C.266
829 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1719 here 66982C.267
830 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1720 here 66982C.268
831 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1721 here 66982C.269
832 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1722 here 66982C.270
833 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1723 here 66982C.271
834 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1724 here 66982C.272
835 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1725 here 66982C.273
836 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1726 here 66982C.274
837 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1727 here 66982C.275
838 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1728 here 66982C.276
839 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1729 here 66982C.277
840 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1730 here 66982C.278
841 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1731 here 66982C.279
842 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1732 here 66982C.280
843 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1733 here 66982C.281
844 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1734 here 66982C.282
845 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1735 here 66982C.283
846 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1736 here 66982C.284
847 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1737 here 66982C.285
848 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1738 here 66982C.286
849 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1739 here 66982C.287
850 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1740 here 66982C.288
851 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1741 here 66982C.289
852 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1742 here 66982C.290
853 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1743 here 66982C.291
854 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1744 here 66982C.292
855 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1745 here 66982C.293
856 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1746 here 66982C.294
857 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1747 here 66982C.295
858 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1748 here 66982C.296
859 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1749 here 66982C.297
860 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1750 here 66982C.298
861 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1751 here 66982C.299
862 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1752 here 66982C.300
863 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1753 here 66982C.301
864 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1754 here 66982C.302
865 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1755 here 66982C.303
866 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1756 here 66982C.304
867 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1757 here 66982C.305
868 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1758 here 66982C.306
869 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1759 here 66982C.307
870 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1760 here 66982C.308
871 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1761 here 66982C.309
872 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1762 here 66982C.310
873 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1763 here 66982C.311
874 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1764 here 66982C.312
875 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1765 here 66982C.313
876 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1766 here 66982C.314
877 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1767 here 66982C.315
878 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1768 here 66982C.316
879 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1769 here 66982C.317
880 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1770 here 66982C.318
881 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1771 here 66982C.319
882 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1772 here 66982C.320
883 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1773 here 66982C.321
884 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1774 here 66982C.322
885 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1775 here 66982C.323
886 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1776 here 66982C.324
887 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1777 here 66982C.325
888 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1778 here 66982C.326
889 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1779 here 66982C.327
890 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1780 here 66982C.328
891 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1781 here 66982C.329
892 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1782 here 66982C.330
893 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1783 here 66982C.331
894 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1784 here 66982C.332
895 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1785 here 66982C.333
896 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1786 here 66982C.334
897 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1787 here 66982C.335
898 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1788 here 66982C.336
899 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1789 here 66982C.337
900 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1790 here 66982C.338
901 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1791 here 66982C.339
902 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1792 here 66982C.340
903 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1793 here 66982C.341
904 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1794 here 66982C.342
905 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1795 here 66982C.343
906 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1796 here 66982C.344
907 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1797 here 66982C.345
908 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1798 here 66982C.346
909 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1799 here 66982C.347
910 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1800 here 66982C.348
911 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1801 here 66982C.349
912 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1802 here 66982C.350
913 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1803 here 66982C.351
914 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1804 here 66982C.352
915 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1805 here 66982C.353
916 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1806 here 66982C.354
917 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1807 here 66982C.355
918 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1808 here 66982C.356
919 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1809 here 66982C.357
920 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1810 here 66982C.358
921 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1811 here 66982C.359
922 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1812 here 66982C.360
923 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1813 here 66982C.361
924 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1814 here 66982C.362
925 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1815 here 66982C.363
926 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1816 here 66982C.364
927 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1817 here 66982C.365
928 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1818 here 66982C.366
929 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1819 here 66982C.367
930 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1820 here 66982C.368
931 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1821 here 66982C.369
932 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1822 here 66982C.370
933 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1823 here 66982C.371
934 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1824 here 66982C.372
935 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1825 here 66982C.373
936 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1826 here 66982C.374
937 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1827 here 66982C.375
938 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1828 here 66982C.376
939 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1829 here 66982C.377
940 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1830 here 66982C.378
941 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1831 here 66982C.379
942 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1832 here 66982C.380
943 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1833 here 66982C.381
944 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1834 here 66982C.382
945 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1835 here 66982C.383
946 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1836 here 66982C.384
947 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1837 here 66982C.385
948 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1838 here 66982C.386
949 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1839 here 66982C.387
950 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1840 here 66982C.388
951 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1841 here 66982C.389
952 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1842 here 66982C.390
953 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1843 here 66982C.391
954 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1844 here 66982C.392
955 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1845 here 66982C.393
956 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1846 here 66982C.394
957 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1847 here 66982C.395
958 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1848 here 66982C.396
959 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1849 here 66982C.397
960 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1850 here 66982C.398
961 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1851 here 66982C.399
962 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1852 here 66982C.400
963 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1853 here 66982C.401
964 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1854 here 66982C.402
965 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1855 here 66982C.403
966 


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967 


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968 


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969 


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970 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1860 here 66982C.408
971 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1861 here 66982C.409
972 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1862 here 66982C.410
973 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1863 here 66982C.411
974 


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975 


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976 


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977 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1867 here 66982C.415
978 


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979 


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980 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1870 here 66982C.418
981 


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982 


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983 


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984 


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985 


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986 


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987 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1877 here 66982C.425
988 


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989 


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990 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1880 here 66982C.428
991 


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992 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1882 here 66982C.430
993 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1883 here 66982C.431
994 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1884 here 66982C.432
995 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1885 here 66982C.433
996 


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997 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1887 here 66982C.435
998 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1888 here 66982C.436
999 


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1000 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1890 here 66982C.438
1001 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1891 here 66982C.439
1002 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1892 here 66982C.440
1003 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1893 here 66982C.441
1004 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1894 here 66982C.442
1005 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1895 here 66982C.443
1006 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1896 here 66982C.444
1007 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1897 here 66982C.445
1008 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1898 here 66982C.446
1009 


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1010 


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1011 


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1012 


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1013 


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1014 


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1015 


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1016 


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1017 


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1018 


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1019 


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1020 


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1021 


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1022 


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1023 


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1024 


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1025 


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1026 


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1027 


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1028 


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1029 


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1030 


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1031 


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1032 


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1033 


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1034 


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1035 


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1036 


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1037 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1927 here 66982C.475
1038 


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1039 


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1040 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1930 here 66982C.478
1041 


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1042 


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1043 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1933 here 66982C.481
1044 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1934 here 66982C.482
1045 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1935 here 66982C.483
1046 


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1047 


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1048 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1938 here 66982C.486
1049 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1939 here 66982C.487
1050 


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1051 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1941 here 66982C.489
1052 


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1053 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1943 here 66982C.491
1054 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1944 here 66982C.492
1055 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1945 here 66982C.493
1056 


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1057 


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1058 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1948 here 66982C.496
1059 


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1060 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1950 here 66982C.498
1061 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1951 here 66982C.499
1062 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1952 here 66982C.500
1063 


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1064 


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1065 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1955 here 66982C.503
1066 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1956 here 66982C.504
1067 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1957 here 66982C.505
1068 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1958 here 66982C.506
1069 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1959 here 66982C.507
1070 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1960 here 66982C.508
1071 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1961 here 66982C.509
1072 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1962 here 66982C.510
1073 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1963 here 66982C.511
1074 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1964 here 66982C.512
1075 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1965 here 66982C.513
1076 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1966 here 66982C.514
1077 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1967 here 66982C.515
1078 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1968 here 66982C.516
1079 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1969 here 66982C.517
1080 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1970 here 66982C.518
1081 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1971 here 66982C.519
1082 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1972 here 66982C.520
1083 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1973 here 66982C.521
1084 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1974 here 66982C.522
1085 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1975 here 66982C.523
1086 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1976 here 66982C.524
1087 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1977 here 66982C.525
1088 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1978 here 66982C.526
1089 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1979 here 66982C.527
1090 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1980 here 66982C.528
1091 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1981 here 66982C.529
1092 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1982 here 66982C.530
1093 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1983 here 66982C.531
1094 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1984 here 66982C.532
1095 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1985 here 66982C.533
1096 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1986 here 66982C.534
1097 


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1098 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1988 here 66982C.536
1099 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1989 here 66982C.537
1100 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1990 here 66982C.538
1101 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1991 here 66982C.539
1102 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1992 here 66982C.540
1103 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1993 here 66982C.541
1104 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1994 here 66982C.542
1105 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1995 here 66982C.543
1106 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 1996 here 66982C.544
1107 


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1108 


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1109 


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1110 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 2000 here 66982C.548
1111 


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1112 


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1113 


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1114 


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1115 


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1116 


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1117 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 2007 here 66982C.555
1118 


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1119 


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1120 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 2010 here 66982C.558
1121 


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1122 


jbell on DSKDVH8Z91PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 2012 here 66982C.560
1123 


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1124 


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(i) 

I N D E X 

Public Witnesses 

Day One—April 14, 2011 

INDEX—ORGANIZATIONS 

Page 

Civil War Trust ........................................................................................................ 34 

Federal Forest Resource Coalition ......................................................................... 15 

Federation of State Humanities Councils .............................................................. 52 

Idaho Shakespeare Festival .................................................................................... 86 

Interstate Mining Compact Commission ............................................................... 8 

Marine Conservation Biology Institute .................................................................. 106 

National Association of Forest Service Retirees (NAFSR) ................................... 28 

National Association of State Foresters ................................................................. 22 

National Humanities Alliance ................................................................................ 59 

Outdoor Alliance ...................................................................................................... 99 

Partners in Preservation ......................................................................................... 45 

Public Lands Foundation ........................................................................................ 93 

Saving America’s Mustangs .................................................................................... 117 

Seminole Nation, Oklahoma ................................................................................... 125 

INDEX—MEMBERS OF CONGRESS 

Burton, Representative Dan ................................................................................... 125 

Thompson, Representative Glenn ........................................................................... 2 

INDEX—WITNESSES 

Adkins, Trace ........................................................................................................... 39 

Ayers, Ed .................................................................................................................. 74 

Brintall, Dr. Michael ............................................................................................... 59 

Burns, Ken ............................................................................................................... 66 

Chandler, Bill ........................................................................................................... 106 

Clark, Trent ............................................................................................................. 52 

Conrad, Gregory ....................................................................................................... 8 

Daly, Elena ............................................................................................................... 93 

Graves, Margaret ..................................................................................................... 45 

Hofflund, Mark ........................................................................................................ 86 

Jackson, Travis ........................................................................................................ 123 

Kashdan, Hank ........................................................................................................ 28 

King, Barbara .......................................................................................................... 113 

Lighthizer, Jim ........................................................................................................ 34 

Looking Horse, Chief Avrol ..................................................................................... 125 

Nafisi, Azar .............................................................................................................. 79 

Pickens, Madeleine .................................................................................................. 117 


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ii 

Robinson, Brady ....................................................................................................... 99 

Shannon, John ......................................................................................................... 22 

Troxel, Tom .............................................................................................................. 15 

Public Witnesses 

Day Two—April 15, 2011 

INDEX—ORGANIZATIONS 

American Society of Civil Engineers ...................................................................... 166 

American Thoracic Society ...................................................................................... 136 

Bat Conservation International .............................................................................. 252 

Defenders of Wildlife ............................................................................................... 246 

Environmental Council of the States/MT Dept. of Environmental Quality ........ 153 

Geological Society of America (GSA) ...................................................................... 159 

Idaho Rural Water Association ............................................................................... 131 

LWCF Coalition ....................................................................................................... 173 

Multinational Species Coalition .............................................................................. 265 

National Fish and Wildlife Foundation ................................................................. 212 

National Parks Conservation Association ............................................................. 193 

National Utility Contractors Association (NUCA) ................................................ 143 

National Wildlife Refuge Association ..................................................................... 231 

Partnership for the National Trails System .......................................................... 217 

San Bernardino Valley Municipal Water District/Santa Ana Sucker Task 

Force ...................................................................................................................... 258

The Conservation Fund, FWS ................................................................................ 206 

The Nature Conservancy ........................................................................................ 200 

The Wilderness Society ........................................................................................... 186 

The Wildlife Society ................................................................................................. 239 

Wilderness Land Trust ............................................................................................ 180 

Wildlife Conservation Society ................................................................................. 224 

INDEX—WITNESSES 

Anker, Conrad .......................................................................................................... 173 

Beetham, Mary Beth ............................................................................................... 246 

Bies, Laura ............................................................................................................... 239 

Blomquist, Jim ......................................................................................................... 180 

Calvelli, John ........................................................................................................... 224 

Cassidy, Tom ............................................................................................................ 200 

Fascione, Nina ......................................................................................................... 252 

Headrick, Doug ........................................................................................................ 258 

Kiernan, Tom ........................................................................................................... 193 

Natale, Patrick ......................................................................................................... 166 

Oliver, Andy ............................................................................................................. 265 

Opper, Richard ......................................................................................................... 153 

Roberts, Shelley ....................................................................................................... 131 

Rowsome, Alan ......................................................................................................... 186 

Schiffries, Dr. Craig ................................................................................................. 159 

Schmitt, Ryan .......................................................................................................... 143 

Sorenson-Groves, Desire ́e ........................................................................................ 231 

Szema, Dr. Anthony ................................................................................................ 136 

Trandahl, Jeff ........................................................................................................... 212 

Turner, John ............................................................................................................ 206 


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iii 

Werner, Gary ........................................................................................................... 217 

Public Witnesses—Tribes and American Indian Advocacy Groups 

Day One—May 3, 2011 

INDEX—ORGANIZATIONS 

Alaska Native Tribal Health Consortium (ANTHC) ............................................. 497 

American Dental Association .................................................................................. 446 

Assiniboine and Sioux Tribes of the Fort Peck Reservation ................................ 396 

Catawba Indian Nation ........................................................................................... 429 

Cherokee Nation ...................................................................................................... 330 

Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma ................................................................................. 337 

Dzilth-Na-O-Dith-Hle Community School ............................................................. 287 

Fort Belknap Indian Community ........................................................................... 402 

Friends of Indian Health ......................................................................................... 465 

Great Lakes Indian Fish and Wildlife Commission .............................................. 435 

Independent Review Team on Tribal Courts ......................................................... 350 

Inter-Tribal Bison Cooperative ............................................................................... 358 

Lac du Flambeau Band of Lake Superior Chippewa ............................................ 417 

Leech Lake Band of Ojibwe .................................................................................... 411 

Miccosukee Tribe of Indians of Florida .................................................................. 422 

National Congress of American Indians ................................................................ 459 

National Council of Urban Indian Health ............................................................. 477 

National Indian Health Board (NIHB) .................................................................. 453 

National Johnson-O’Malley Association ................................................................. 342 

National Tribal Contract Support Cost Coalition ................................................. 471 

Native American Grant School Association (NAGSA) .......................................... 321 

Navajo Hopi Land Commission Office of the Navajo Nation ............................... 300 

Navajo Nation .......................................................................................................... 293 

Nez Perce Tribal Executive Committee ................................................................. 389 

Oglala Sioux Tribe ................................................................................................... 366 

Pueblo of Acoma ....................................................................................................... 273 

Ramah Band of Navajo/Ramah Navajo Chapter ................................................... 307 

Ramah Navajo School Board .................................................................................. 313 

Santa Clara Pueblo .................................................................................................. 280 

Southcentral Foundation ......................................................................................... 491 

Standing Rock Sioux Tribe ..................................................................................... 373 

Tanana Chiefs Conference ...................................................................................... 486 

United Tribes Technical College ............................................................................. 379 

INDEX—MEMBERS OF CONGRESS 

Berg, Representative Rick ....................................................................................... 358 

Young, Representative Don ..................................................................................... 485 

INDEX—WITNESSES 

Archambault II, Dave .............................................................................................. 373 

Barnett, D’Shane ..................................................................................................... 477 

Billie, Colley ............................................................................................................. 422

BlueEyes, Faye ........................................................................................................ 287 

Carlson, Ervin .......................................................................................................... 358 

Coochise, Elbridge ................................................................................................... 350 

Culbreath, Joy .......................................................................................................... 337 


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iv 

Dasheno, Walter ...................................................................................................... 280 

Deters, Dr. Pamela .................................................................................................. 465 

Dusty Bull, Harold .................................................................................................. 342 

Garcia, Martha ......................................................................................................... 307 

Gipp, Dr. David M. .................................................................................................. 379 

Honyaoma, Todd ...................................................................................................... 321 

Isaac, Jerry ............................................................................................................... 486

Johnson Pata, Jacqueline ........................................................................................ 459 

King, Tracy ‘‘Ching’’ ................................................................................................. 402 

Knight, Melanie ....................................................................................................... 330 

Mala, Ted .................................................................................................................. 491

Martine-Alonzo, Nancy ............................................................................................ 313 

Maulson, Tom ........................................................................................................... 417 

Maxx, Raymond ....................................................................................................... 300 

Mike, Jeff .................................................................................................................. 321 

Miller, Lloyd ............................................................................................................. 471 

Neary, Dr. Matt ....................................................................................................... 446 

Oatman, McCoy ....................................................................................................... 389 

Rodgers, Donald ....................................................................................................... 429 

Russell, Majel ........................................................................................................... 358 

Secatero, Lester ....................................................................................................... 453 

Shelly, Ben ............................................................................................................... 293 

Smith, Roxann ......................................................................................................... 396 

Steele, John Yellow Bird ......................................................................................... 366 

Swagger, Dr. Russell M ........................................................................................... 379 

Teuber, Andy ............................................................................................................ 497 

Tortalita, Lloyd ........................................................................................................ 273 

Wawronowicz, Larry ................................................................................................ 417 

Whitebird, Eugene ‘‘Ribs’’ ....................................................................................... 411 

Zorn, Jim .................................................................................................................. 435

Public Witnesses—Tribes and American Indian Advocacy Groups 

Day Two—May 4, 2011 

INDEX—ORGANIZATIONS 

Columbia River Inter-Tribal Fish Commission ..................................................... 554 

Confederated Tribes of Grand Ronde ..................................................................... 572 

Confederated Tribes of the Umatilla Indian Reservation .................................... 548 

Confederated Tribes of the Warm Springs Reservation of Oregon ...................... 541 

Ft. Hall Business Council, Shoshone-Bannock Tribes .......................................... 511 

Intertribal Timber Council ...................................................................................... 560 

Lummi Indian Business Council ............................................................................ 616 

Makah Tribal Council ............................................................................................. 622 

Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission ............................................................... 590 

Northwest Portland Area Indian Health Board .................................................... 531 

Puyallup Tribe ......................................................................................................... 597 

Quinault Indian Nation ........................................................................................... 610 

Reno-Sparks Indian Colony Tribal Council ........................................................... 524 

Shoshone-Paiute Tribes of the Duck Valley Indian Reservation ......................... 505 

Siletz Tribe ............................................................................................................... 566

Skokomish Tribal Nation ........................................................................................ 583 

Squaxin Island Tribe ............................................................................................... 603 

United South and Eastern Tribes, Inc ................................................................... 628 


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INDEX—MEMBERS OF CONGRESS 

Richardson, Representative Laura ......................................................................... 517 

INDEX—WITNESSES 

Bear, Robert ............................................................................................................. 505 

Blythe, C. Larry ....................................................................................................... 560 

Bowechop, Ryland .................................................................................................... 622 

Brigham, N. Kathryn .............................................................................................. 548 

Frank, Jr., Billy ....................................................................................................... 590 

Grayem, Mike ........................................................................................................... 590 

Johnstone, Ed ........................................................................................................... 590 

Joseph, Andrew ........................................................................................................ 531 

Kennedy, Cheryle A ................................................................................................. 572 

Melendez, Arlan ....................................................................................................... 524 

Patterson, Brian ....................................................................................................... 628 

Pavel, Joseph ............................................................................................................ 583 

Peters, Ray ............................................................................................................... 603 

Pigsley, Delores ........................................................................................................ 566 

Sharp, Fawn ............................................................................................................. 610 

Small, Nathan .......................................................................................................... 511 

Suppah, Ron ............................................................................................................. 541 

LaPointe, Lawrence W ............................................................................................ 597 

Williams, Sheri Lee ................................................................................................. 616 

Written Testimony from Members of Congress 

INDEX 

Representative David Price, U.S. Congress, NC–04 ............................................. 638 

Representative Pedro Pierluisi, Resident Commissioner, Puerto Rico ................ 641 

Written Testimony from Individuals and Organizations 

INDEX 

11 organizations in the fields of conservation, forestry, and horticulture .......... 644 

1854 Treaty Authority ............................................................................................. 647 

Alaska Federation of Natives ................................................................................. 649 

Alliance to Save Energy .......................................................................................... 652 

American Association of Petroleum Geologists ..................................................... 654 

American Bird Conservancy ................................................................................... 657 

American Forest & Paper Association ................................................................... 661 

American Forest Foundation .................................................................................. 665 

American Forests ..................................................................................................... 668 

American Foundation for Suicide Prevention ....................................................... 672 

American Geological Institute ................................................................................ 674 

American Geophysical Union .................................................................................. 678 

American Herds ....................................................................................................... 682 

American Indian Higher Education Consortium (AIHEC) ................................... 686 

American Institute of Biological Sciences .............................................................. 690 

American Lung Association .................................................................................... 694 

American Public Power Association ....................................................................... 697 

American Society for Microbiology ......................................................................... 699 

American Society of Agronomy ............................................................................... 703 


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Animal Welfare Institute ........................................................................................ 706 

Appalachian Trail Conservancy .............................................................................. 710 

APS Four Corners Power Plant .............................................................................. 714 

Arctic Slope Native Association .............................................................................. 716 

Association of American Universities .................................................................... 718 

Association of Community Tribal Schools Inc ....................................................... 722 

Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies ............................................................. 727 

Association of Public and Land-grant Universities ............................................... 728 

Association of State Drinking Water Administrators ........................................... 732 

Aurora Water ........................................................................................................... 736 

BHP Navajo Coal Company .................................................................................... 737 

Bird Conservation Funding Coalition .................................................................... 739 

Center for Plant Conservation ................................................................................ 742 

Central Council of the Tlingit and Haida Indian Tribes of Alaska ..................... 746 

Central Utah Water Conservancy District ............................................................ 750 

Cherokee Nation ...................................................................................................... 752 

Cheyenne River Sioux Tribal Council .................................................................... 753 

Chippewa Cree Tribe of the Rocky Boy’s Association ........................................... 757 

Chippewa Ottawa Resource Authority ................................................................... 761 

Chugach Regional Resources Commission ............................................................. 767 

Colorado River Basin Salinity Control Forum ...................................................... 770 

Colorado River District ............................................................................................ 774 

Colorado Water Congress ........................................................................................ 776 

Columbus Metro Park ............................................................................................. 778 

Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes ............................................................. 779 

Cook Inlet Tribal Council ........................................................................................ 783 

Cooperative Alliance for Refuge Enhancement ..................................................... 787 

Copper River Native Association ............................................................................ 790 

Council of Western State Foresters ........................................................................ 793 

D.J. Schubert, Wildlife Biologist, Private Citizen ................................................. 795 

Denver Water ........................................................................................................... 799 

Ding Darling Wildlife Society—Friends of the Refuge, Sanibel .......................... 801 

Dolores Water Conservancy District ...................................................................... 803 

Ducks Unlimited, Inc ............................................................................................... 805 

Emission Control Technology Association ............................................................. 809 

Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Chippewa .................................................... 813 

Forest County Potawatomi Community ................................................................. 817 

Friends of Alaska National Wildlife Refuges ........................................................ 821 

Friends of Back Bay ................................................................................................ 822 

Friends of Balcones Canyonlands National Wildlife Refuge ................................ 825 

Friends of Camas National Wildlife Refuge .......................................................... 828 

Friends of Cape May National Wildlife Refuge ..................................................... 829 

Friends of Laguna Atascosa NWR ......................................................................... 832 

Friends of Rachel Carson NWR .............................................................................. 833 

Friends of the Bosque del Apache National Wildlife Refuge ............................... 835 

Friends of the Chassahowitzka National Wildlife Refuge Complex, Inc ............ 838 

Friends of the Desert Mountains ........................................................................... 841 

Friends of the Desert National Wildlife Refuge Complex .................................... 844 

Friends of the Potomac River Refuges ................................................................... 845 

Friends of the Red River National Wildlife Refuge, Inc ....................................... 848 

Friends of the Savannah Coastal Wildlife Refuges, Inc ....................................... 852 

Friends of the Tampa Bay National Wildlife Refuges, Inc .................................. 854 

Friends of Turnbull National Wildlife Refuge ....................................................... 857 

Friends of Virgin Islands National Park ............................................................... 859 

Friends of Wallkill River National Wildlife Refuges ............................................ 862 


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Gathering Waters Conservancy .............................................................................. 865 

Governor of Wyoming .............................................................................................. 868 

Grand Valley Water Users’ Association ................................................................. 870 

Green Mountain Club .............................................................................................. 871 

Green Ravens of Rio Grande High School ............................................................. 875 

Humane Society Legislative Fund & Doris Day Animal League ........................ 877 

Industrial Minerals Association ............................................................................. 881 

Interstate Council on Water Policy ........................................................................ 883 

Izaak Walton League of America ........................................................................... 886 

Jamestown S’Klallam Tribe .................................................................................... 890 

Jicarilla Apache Nation ........................................................................................... 894 

Keep Valley Forge Safe ........................................................................................... 896 

Kevin Vertesch, Private Citizen, Sanibel, FL ........................................................ 898 

League of American Orchestras ............................................................................. 900 

Little River Band of Ottawa Indians ..................................................................... 904 

Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust .................................................................... 907 

Mandan, Hidatsa & Arikara Nation ...................................................................... 911 

Mike Dobesh, Private Citizen ................................................................................. 914 

Montana Wildlife Federation .................................................................................. 918 

National Assembly of State Arts Agencies ............................................................ 921 

National Association of Abandoned Mine Land Programs (NAAMLP) ............... 925 

National Association of Clean Air Agencies (NACAA) ......................................... 929 

National Association of State Energy Officials (NASEO) .................................... 933 

National Conference of State Historic Preservation Officers ............................... 935 

National Cooperators’ Coalition .............................................................................. 939 

National Federation of Federal Employees (NFFE) Local 1957 .......................... 941 

National Ground Water Association ...................................................................... 945 

National Indian Education Association ................................................................. 948 

National Institutes of Water Resources ................................................................. 952 

National Mining Association ................................................................................... 956 

National Recreation and Park Association ............................................................ 958 

National Tribal Environmental Council ................................................................ 962 

National WH&B Advocate Team ............................................................................ 966 

National Wild Horse and Burro Political Action Committee ............................... 970 

National Wildlife Federation .................................................................................. 972 

Naturalstep Horse Training .................................................................................... 976 

New Hampshire Fish and Game Department ....................................................... 980 

New Mexico Interstate Stream Commission ......................................................... 984 

Northern Colorado Water Conservancy District ................................................... 987 

Northern Forest Center ........................................................................................... 989 

Northern Sierra Partnership .................................................................................. 992 

Northern Virginia Regional Park Authority .......................................................... 995 

Orchard Mesa Irrigation District ........................................................................... 996 

Oregon Water Resources Congress ......................................................................... 998 

Oregon Water Resources Congress 2 of 2 .............................................................. 1000 

Pacific Salmon Commission .................................................................................... 1004 

Pennsylvania Fish & Boat Commission ................................................................. 1008 

Performing Arts Alliance ........................................................................................ 1009 

Peter Maier, PhD, PE .............................................................................................. 1013 

PNC, Inc ................................................................................................................... 1016 

PNM Resources ........................................................................................................ 1020 

Preservation Action ................................................................................................. 1022 

Pueblo of Zuni .......................................................................................................... 1026 

Red Lake Band of Chippewa Indians ..................................................................... 1030 

Riverside-San Bernardino County Indian Health, Inc ......................................... 1034 


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Sac and Fox Nation of Oklahoma ........................................................................... 1036 

San Juan Water Commission ................................................................................. 1040 

Sawtooth Society ...................................................................................................... 1042 

SouthEast Alaska Regional Health Consortium ................................................... 1045 

Southern Appalachian Highlands Conservancy .................................................... 1047 

Southern Ute Indian Tribe ..................................................................................... 1049 

Southwestern Water Conservation District ........................................................... 1051 

St. Marks Refuge Association ................................................................................. 1053 

State and Tribal Wildlife Grants program ............................................................ 1055 

Steer Clear of Wildlife ............................................................................................. 1058 

Supporters of St. Vincent NWR .............................................................................. 1059 

Sustainable Urban Forests Coalition ..................................................................... 1062 

Taos County Board of Commissioners ................................................................... 1064 

The Glacier National Park Fund ............................................................................ 1067 

The National Association of Abandoned Mine Land Programs ........................... 1070 

The Trust for Public Land ...................................................................................... 1074 

Theatre Communications Group ............................................................................ 1078 

Three Rivers Park District ...................................................................................... 1081 

Timucuan Trail Parks Foundation ......................................................................... 1082 

Town of Ophir .......................................................................................................... 1086 

Tri-County Water Conservancy District ................................................................ 1089 

United Sioux Tribes of South Dakota Development Corporation ........................ 1091 

University Consortium for Geographic Information Science ............................... 1095 

University Corporation for Atmospheric Research (UCAR) ................................. 1097 

Upper Colorado River Commissioner for New Mexico .......................................... 1099 

Upper Gunnison River Water Conservancy District ............................................. 1101 

Upper Peninsula Public Access Coalition .............................................................. 1103 

USGS Coalition ........................................................................................................ 1106 

Utah Water Users Association ............................................................................... 1110 

Washington Wildlife Recreation Coalition ............................................................. 1112 

Wilderness Society and the National Association of State Foresters .................. 1115 

Wyoming Water Association ................................................................................... 1118 

Yakama Nation ........................................................................................................ 1120 

Yukon-Kuskokwim Health Corporation ................................................................. 1123 

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