95 1

UNITE D STATE S O F AMERIC A

+ + + + + •.nT;€N TO F N'SPORTATlO r

DEPARTMEN T O F TRANSPORTATKOW-'f H ^ 1 ^ |\/r^| K OFFIC E O F HEARING S [' \i-^^- ^<—" >^ LZH J 

## IIZ C - 5 201 1 + + + + + 

### 1;EAR!NGD0CK5 T HEARIN G

I NTH E MATTE RO F CORPORAT E AI R FAADocke t N o CPIONMOOI O DM S Docke t N o FAA-2010-097 5 VOLUM E I V

Thursday , Augus t 25 , 201 1

Th e above-entitle dmatte r cam e o nfo r furthe r hearing , pursuan t t o recess , a t 9:0 2

a .m .

BEFORE : THEHONORABL ERICHAR D C

. GOODWI N Administrativ eLa w Judg e

(202 ) 234-443 3 NEA LR

. GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISLAN D AVE.

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. 20005-370 1 www.nealrgross.co m95 2 APPEARANCES : O nBehal f o f th e Complainant : KYL E LOMAZOW , ESQ . of : FA

AOffic e o f Regional Counse l 160 1 Lin dAvenu e SW , ANM- 7 Renton , Washingto n9805 7 (425 ) 227-184 7 O nBehal f o f th e Respondent : CYNTHI ACHANDLER-SNELL , ESQ . of : FedE xExpres s 362 0 Hack s Cros s Roa d Buildin g B , 3r dFloo r Memphis , Tennesse e 3812 5 (901 ) 434-836 1



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INDE X

WITNESSES : RE

- RE

DIREC T CROS S DIREC T CROS S Donal dStige r 95 4 97 5

EXHIBIT S (None. ) MARKE D RECEIVE D

(202 ) 234-443 3 NEA LR

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 PROCEEDING S 9:0 2a. m JUDG E GOODWI N RemeTnbe r we ' r e goin g t o tak e a brea k betwee n11:3 0 an d11:4 5 t o allo wth e audi o syste mt o b e worke don , an d th e audi o syste mwil l b e down .

Yo u ca nb e seated . So , Agen t Stiger , yo u wan t t o retur nt o th e stand ? I remin dyo u tha t you'r e stil l unde r oath .

Counsel . M S . CHANDLER-SNELL : Than k you , You r Honor . DONAL D STIGER , COMPLAINANT' S WITNESS ,

PREVIOUSL YSWOR N CROS S EXAMINATIO N(RESUMED ) B YMS . CHANDLER-SNELL : Q Agen t S t iger , yo u agre e tha t 173.19 9 doe s no t appl yt o a shipmen t tha t contain s n o regulate dmaterial ; right ? AB ydefinition , it' s no t a hazardou s material . Therefore , th e HMR s d o

(202 ) 234-443 3 

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 no t apply .

Q Okay . An dbase do nth e testimon y tha t you'v e hear dan dth e material s provide d t o you , yo u agre e tha t i nthi s particula r cas e regardin g U N337 3 shipments , ther e wa s n o regulate dmaterial ? ATh e result s o f th e investigatio n finall ydetermine dtha t th e material s i nth e tw o shipment s i nquestio nwer e determine dno t t o b e - - mee t th e requiremen t --o r mee t th e Categor yB biologica l substance . Q S o i nthi s case , regardin g th e U N337 3 shipments , n o regulate dmateria l wa s improperl ytransported ? AA t th e tim e i t wa s tendered , i t

wa s marked , bu t th e subsequen t investigatio n afte r i t wa s discovere ddetermine dtha t th e materia l di dno t mee t th e definitio no f a Categor yB infectiou s substance . Q S o ther e wa s n o regulate dmateria l transporte da t al l here ? AUltimately , i t wa s discovere da s

{202 ) 234-443 3 NEA LR

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 

### e 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 such . Q Okay . Now , I wan t t o clarif y

something . Ther e ar e tw o differen t type s o f - - actuall ythre e differen t type s o f inspection s tha t w e talke dabout . D o yo u agre e tha t ther e i s a genera l inspectio no f packages , o f al l packages , whe na nai r carrie r load s the m

ont o a naircraft ? APick s ' e mu p whe nthere ' s - - there' s a genera l inspectio nwhe nth e materia l i s tendere dfro ma shippe r t o a carrier . Q An dw e refe r t o tha t ofte na s acceptance ; right ? ATha t i s th e acceptance . Q Okay . Fo r dangerou s goods , thos e shipment s requir e what' s reall ya secon d inspection , a ninspectio nfo r th e markings , th e labeling , t o mak e sur e they'r e properl y marke dan dlabeled ; right ? ATh e inspectio ni s conducte da t th e tim e tha t th e material' s offere dan dpicke du p b ya carrier . S o th e ite mbecome s regulate d

(202 ) 234-443 3 NEA L R . GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISLAN D AVE. , N.W

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 i ntransportatio nwhe na carrie r pick s u p a

hazardou s material . Q Yo u understan dtha t ther e ar e n o ai r carrier s wh o hav e dangerou s good s specialist s pickin g u p package s a t someone' s fron t door ; right ? AI nregard s t o wha t carrier s sa yi s a dangerou s good s specialist ? No . I nth e cas e o f FedE xExpress , yo u hav e ai r carrie r employee s wh o ar e name dcourier s tha t wil l pic k u p a hazardou s materia l o nthat , an d there ' s a preliminar y- - base do nyou r manual , yo u d o a preliminar yinspectio no f that . I f it' s - - there' s marking s an dindicator s o n there , ther e i s a preliminar yinspectio ntha t i s done . Ther e the ni s a secondar yinspectio n base do nprocedure s establishe db ycarrier s wher e they'1 1 hav e a specificall ytraine d specialis t loo k a t that . I f a t tha t tim e th e materia l o r th e shipmen t fo r som e reaso no r anothe r i s no t i ncomplianc e wit hthat , tha t i s wh ybot hFedE xExpres s an dUP S Airline s

(202 ) 234-443 3 

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 95 8

hav e tha t specia l permi t - - I believ e it ' s 1468 0 - - tha t allow s the mt o transpor t tha t materia l byroa dbac k - - n o mor e tha nI believ e it' s 15 0 mile s fro mth e origi n statio n- - bac k t o th e shipper . I nothe r words , i f a regulate dparty , a nai r carrier , o r anycarrier , determine s tha t th e material' s no t i ncomplianc e wit hth e Hazardou s Materia l Regulations , the yar e no t authorize dt o transpor t th e materia l back . That' s henc e th e specia l provision s o f specia l permit s tha t
wer e applie dfo r an dI believ e grante dbot h- - I - - I'v e see nbot hutilize db yFedE xExpres s a s wel l a s UP S Airline s tha t allow s th e transpor t o f th e materia l bac k whe ni t ha s bee nrecognize da t tha t origi nstatio ntha t it' s no t i ncomplianc e wit hth e HMRs . Q Fo r a regula r packag e - - ACorrect .

tha t i s no t a declare d dangerou s good ,

Ye s

(202 ) 234-443 3 NEA LR

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q - - ai r carrier s ar e require dt o

inspec t thos e - - ACorrect . Q - - whic hjus t involve s lookin g - - I thin k yo u ha dcalle di t th e six-sid e cheeky lookin g a t th e box ^ - - AYes . Q - - makin g sur e there' s n o leakage , n o damage , n o integrit yproblem , o r any indication s tha t it' s a suspiciou s package . ACorrect . Q An dyo u agre e tha t there' s anothe r kin do f inspectio nthat' s require dfo r dangerou s good s shipment s tha t goe s wel l beyon dth e lookin g a t th e si xside s o f th e box , lookin g fo r suspiciou s marking s o r labelings . I t involve s th e acceptanc e proces s fo r dangerou s goods , makin g sur e tha t everythin g fo r thi s typ e o f materia l ha s bee n don e b yth e carrie r - - I mean , b yth e shippe r i npreparatio nfo r transport . ATher e is , an dthat' s - - tha t i s

(202 ) 234-443 3 NEA L R . GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISLAN D AVE. , N.W

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 wholl ydependen t o nth e materia l that' s bein g

offere dfo r transportation . Q Right . S o ther e hav e bee ntimes , I think , i nyou r testimon ywher e we'v e sai d "inspection, " an di nyou r testimony , you'v e bee nreferencin g fo r U N337 3 inspectio na t acceptance ; i s tha t right ? AThere' s a ninspectio na t acceptance , yes . Q An dfo r U N337 3 shipments , you r testimon yha s bee ntha t there' s als o a n inspectio na t offload ; correct ? ATha t i f th e packag e i s i n complianc e wit h173.199 , there' s th e additiona l offloa dinspectio nthat' s require d that , m yunderstanding , i s no t require do f othe r hazardou s materia l packages . Thi s i s a n additional requiremen t i f th e shipmen t i s shippe dan dtransporte dunde r th e exceptio ni n 173.199 . Q You'1 1 agree , i nrelatio nt o th e U N337 3 shipment s i nthes e cases , tha t n o

{202 ) 234-443 3 NEA LR

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 dangerou s good s wer e actuall yaccepte dfro m

th e shippers ? AI t wa s ultimatel ydetermine dtha t th e materia l insid e wa s foun dno t t o mee t th e definitio no f a Categor yB biologica l substance . Q Okay . S o th e acceptanc e o f somethin g tha t doesn' t mee t th e definitio no f

a Categor yB infectiou s substanc e doesn' t requir e anyspecia l handlin g unde r th e CFR , doe s it ? A Th e CFR s d o no t cove r a materia l

- - b ydefinition , there' s a hazardou s - - i t ha s t o mee t th e definitio no f a hazardou s material , thoug hther e ar e provision s fo r transportin g item s marke do r labele do r describe da s a hazardou s materia l whe ni t i s not . Q I don' t wan t t o pu t yo u o nth e spot , bu t d o yo u kno wtha t provision ? ATh e on e tha t I a mfamilia r wit h th e majorit yo f th e tim e i s 173

- --o r excus e

(202 ) 234-443 3 

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 m e - - 172. 3 01 , I believe , prohibite dmarkin g

i s on e tha t I've ha dexperienc e with , a s wel l

a s I believ e it' s 17 2 (k ) . I f I coul dloo k a t th e regulations , I ca nrefres hmyself . Q Le t m e hav e jus t a second , an d we'l l se e i f w e nee dt o - - AOkay . Q - - ge t int o that . (Pause. ) M S CHANDLER-SNELL : Ma y approach , You r Honor ?

JUDG E GOODWIN : Yes , B YMS . CHANDLER-SNELL : Q An dfo r reference , I thin k we'1 1 b e lookin g a t 4 9 CF R172.303 . A303 . Okay . Q I thin k that' s th e one . AYes , 172.30 3 i s prohibite d marking . Q Okay . An dca nyo u rea dtha t fo r th e Court , please ? AO n(a) :

(202 ) 234-443 3 

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 "No perso nma yoffe r fo r trans

portatio no r transpor t a packag e whic hi s marke dwit hth e prope r shippin g name , th e identificatio n numbe r o f a hazardou s material , o r anyothe r markin g indicatin g tha t th e material i s hazardou s unles s th e packag e contain s th e identi

fie dhazardou s materia l o r it s residue. " Q Okay . (Pause. ) Ar e yo u familia r wit hth e provision s unde r whic hFedEx , Corporat e Ai r an dEmpir e Ai r wer e cite di nthes e cases ? AM yunderstanding , i t wa s th e genera l citations , a s wel l a s - - genera l citation s unde r th e genera l requirements , a s wel l a s 175.3 . Bu t I' dhav e t o tak e a loo k a t th e

Q 

### (Pause. )

S o accordin g t o you r

testimony , i n

(202 ) 234^43 3 NEA LR

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 thes e cases , th e violation s yo u believ e t o

hav e occurre do nth e U N3 3 7 3 shipment s i s tha t the ywer e transporte dwhe nthe yha da n identificatio nnumbe r o f a hazardou s material , bu t the ydidn' t contai ntha t hazardou s material ? Par t o f th e I believ e als o ther e wa s th e failur e t o inspec t o nthat . Ther e wa s --a t th e tim e tha t th e materia l wa s offered , a t th e tim e th e materia l wa s accepted , an da t th e tim e tha t th e materia l

wa s transported ; ther e wa s al l indication s tha t th e materia l wa s regulate dbase do nth e marking , base do nth e tim e tha t th e materia l

wa s transported . An di t wasn' t unti l th e subsequen t investigation , afte r i t wa s discovere dbyAgen t Luscher , tha t the ywer e abl e to , wit hhind

- - - wit h20/2 0 hindsight , g o bac k an dloo k a t th e materia l an dse e i f i t

wa s actuall y- - t o determin e i f i t wa s regulate da s a Categor yB biologica l substance .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q An dth e determinatio nwa s tha t

ther e wer e n o hazardou s material s transported . AThe yfinall ydetermined , base do n subsequen t conversatio n--m yunderstanding , subsequen t conversation s betwee nAgen t Lusche r an dth e shippe r i nquestion , tha t i t di dno t
mee t th e definitio no f a Categor yB infectiou s substance . Bu t i t wa s onl yafte r i t ha dbee n gotte nt o tha t point , an di t wa s afte r i t wa s discovere dtha t tha t determinatio nwa s made . Q An dtha t applie s to , fo r clarifi

catio no f th e record , th e tw o U N337 3 shipment s i nth e cas e involvin g FedE xan d Corporat e Air , an dth e U N337 3 shipment s i n th e cas e involvin g FedE xan dEmpire ?

MR . LOMAZOW : Ob j ection , You r Honor . Aske dan danswered .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Overruled . TH E WITNESS : Tha t wa s - - yes , bot hcases , i t wa s ultimatel ydetermine dfo r th e tw o shipments , FedE xan dCorporate , an d th e on e shipmen t betwee nFedE xan dEmpire , wa s

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•

• 1 .

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 ultimatel ydetermine dtha t th e materia l wa s

no t regulated .

{Pause. ) MS . CHANDLER-SNELL : You r Honor , i f I ma yhav e jus t a moment ? I' malmos t done .

(Pause. ) B YMS . CHANDLER-SNELL : Q Okay . Agen t Stiger , ar e yo u familia r wit hth e fiel dmanual ? AI' msorry . Whic hfiel dmanual ? Q Th e on e fo r FAAagents . AOh . Q Ther e ma yb e anothe r name . AThat' s ou r nationa l inspectio nan d investigatio nmanual . Yes . I helpe d- - I wa s o nth e committe e tha t developed , wrote , an d the nrecommende dt o ou r managemen t t o adop t i n regard s t o th e inspectio nprocedures , techniques , o nho wt o conduc t inspection s o f shippers , ai r carriers . An dthe nthere' s a subsequen t investigatio nmanua l tha t wa s develope dalongsid e b yanothe r committe e o f



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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 agent s an dmanagemen t that , whe ncombined , i s

th e Nationa l Inspectio nan dInvestigatio n Manual . The ycal l i t th e NI2M . Q NOW ; i s tha t th e sam e a s th e 2150 ? ATha t i s no t th e sam e a s th e 21

- - - th e 215 0 i s a order . Th e inspectio nmanua l i s a guidanc e documen t tha t i s utilize db yfiel d agent s i nhelpin g t o conduc t inspection s an d investigations . I t basicall ylay s ou t - - provide s scenarios , provide s guidanc e o n what ' s t o b e looke dat , ho wmuc hi s t o b e looke dat , wher e d o yo u loo k a t it ? It' s a guidanc e documen t that , i f a ne wagen t cam e in , tha t the ywoul db e traine dt o d o that . A lo t o f i t contain s inspectio ntechnique s an d procedures . Q Ar e yo u familia r wit hbot ho f thos e manuals ? AI' m

familia r i nth e regard s I di d

no t hel p writ e th e investigation s manual , bu t the nI di dg o throug hth e cours e t o hel p teac h th e investigation s manual . S o I'v e gon e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 throug h- - mor e familia r wit hth e inspectio n

manual , bu t a t th e sam e time , familia r wit h th e investigatio nmanual , a s it' s th e - - provide s a national guidelin e o nho wt o conduc t investigation s an dprepar e enforcemen t
cases . Q Ar e yo u familia r wit hth e provisio ni nth e fiel dmanua l regardin g fairness ? AI' d- - MR . LOMAZOW : Objection , You r Honor . What' s th e relevanc yo f this ?

JUDG E GOODWIN : Overruled . TH E WITNESS : I hav e - - I - - yo u know , i nlookin g a t th e fiel dmanual , I' dhav e t o - - I believ e there' s a provisio ni nther e tha t talk s about , yo u know , yo u hav e t o b e objectiv e a s possible . Bu t I can' t - - I don' t kno wi f there' s a specifi c sectio ntha t reference s fairness . I kno wthere' s th e objectiv e natur e tha t yo u mus t hav e i nregard s t o conductin g th e inspection s an dinvestiga

-

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• 1

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 tions . I n othe r words , it' s gatherin g al l th e

facts . Q Okay . Le t m e - - I' mgoin g t o rea d somethin g t o yo u an d se e i f yo u recogniz e i t generally . AOkay . Q Thi s i s - - fo r th e record , I' m lookin g a t 2150 , th e manua l tha t wa s provide d i nrespons e t o - - ATha t woul db e th e FAAorder . Q A Okay . Yeah . Q I' msorry . I t wa s provide dt o FedE xan d Corporat e Ai r i n respons e t o interrogatorie s an d discover yi n thi s case .

O npag e 2-3 , provisio n(g ) , fairness : "T o b e effective , th e Agency' s

complianc e an d enforcemen t progra m mus t b e fai r an d reasonable , an d shoul db e perceive da s fai r b y thos e subjec t t o th e regulation .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Thi s doe s no t an dshoul dno t impl y a nunwillingnes s t o appl yth e ful l forc e o f statutor ysanction s wher e warranted . I t doe s encompas s th e righ t o f a napparen t violato r t o b e give nobjective ; evenhande d consideratio no f al l circumstance s surroundin g th e allegation s befor e fina l actio ni s taken . I t als o require s goo dfait heffort s t o understan dth e apparen t violator ' s positio nan dtak e i t int o account , a s wel l a s t o appris e th e apparen t violato r o f th e Agency' s positio n i na timel ymanner. " Doe s tha t soun dgenerall yyou r recollectio no f 2150 , th e orde r you'v e referenced ? AYes . Q Okay . Ar e yo u awar e o f an y provision s i n215 0 regardin g timeliness ? ATher e ar e - - I kno wther e ar e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 provision s i nther e - - I kno wth e timelines s

tha t woul dappl y- - appl yt o u s a s agent s i n regard s t o preparatio no f th e enforcemen t investigativ e report , an dthe nth e submissio n t o ou r management , an dthe nth e submissio nt o legal . I a mno t familia r wit hth e timelines s onc e i t i s receive db you r Lega l Department . I kno wthere' s timelines s issue s o nthat , bu t I' mno t familia r wit hthat , no . Q Okay . Agen t Stiger , I' das k yo u t o loo k a t a nexhibi t marke dR4 . It' s n o i n th e manua l - - I mean , it' s no t i nth e noteboo k yo u have . I t shoul db e i nth e stac k nea r you . AYes . Q Ar e yo u familia r wit hth e documen t marke dR4 ? ANo t unti l w e wen t ove r thi s case . I' dneve r see nthi s unti l I wa s brough t i nt o hel p wit hthi s hearing . S o th e firs t tim e I di di t wa s whe nw e reviewed , I believe , th e materia l tha t wa s submitte db yyo u folk s durin g th e discover yprocess .

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q S o yo u wer e no t awar e tha t th e

lette r that' s marke da s Exhibi t R 4 wa s sent ? AI ha dneve r see nthi s unti l I wa s brough t i nt o b e th e technical exper t wit h thi s case . Q Di dyo u kno wa lette r ha dbee n sen t b yFedE xt o th e FA Aregardin g U N3373 ? ANo , I ha dnot . Q Okay . (Pause. ) Di dyo u participat e i nan ywa yi n th e sanctio nrecommendation s tha t wer e give n i nthi s case ? ANo , I di dnot . (Long pause, ) M S . CHANDLER-SNEL L N o furthe r questions . You r Honor .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Agen t Stiger , jus t

s o th e Cour t i s clea r - -

MR . LOMAZOW : You r Honor , i f I ca n as k a fe wfollow-u p questions ?

JUDG E GOODWIN : No . Hol don . 

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Ther e wer e - - i nyou r revie wo f

th e fact s o f th e case , ther e wer e tw o shipment s i nquestio nhere ?

TH E WITNESS : Th e shipmen t fo r th e FedEx/Corporat e Air , myunderstandin g was , i f I ca ng o bac k there , woul db e - -

JUDG E GOODWIN : G o t o Complain

an t ' s 7 . TH E WITNESS : Th e shipmen t - - there' s a shipmen t identifie db ypag e 1 3 o f 1 6 - - JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay .

TH E WITNESS : - - wit hth e - - JUDG E GOODWIN : S o that' s th e on e that' s TH E WITNES S There' s on e shipment . That' s one .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . TH E WITNESS : An dthe nth e secon d shipmen t tha t wa s als o discovere do ntha t - - becaus e tha t ha s a trackin g numbe r 864 7 419 1 6 0 94 . An dthe ni f yo u g o t o - -

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E GOODWIN : Th e Othe r on e i s

650 3 TH E WITNES S 650 3 i s th e las t fou r o nth e trackin g number .

JUDG E GOODWIN : S o thos e ar e th e tw o shipment s tha t FedE xapparentl yhandled ; right ? TH E WITNESS : Correct .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Forge t th e specific s o f packagin g an dal l that .

TH E WITNESS : Yes . JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . I s - - i n Complainant' s - - sam e exhibit , pag e 1 o f 16 , i s tha t th e othe r case , o r i s tha t jus t a differen t shipment ?

TH E WITNESS : It' s a differen t shipmen t JUDG E GOODWI N Bu t di dFedE x handl e 1 o f 16 ?

TH E WITNESS : Yes , sir . JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . S o ho w man y- - now , FedE xhandle dal l thre e o f th e



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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 shipment s we'v e jus t talke dabout , 1 o f 16 , 1 3

o f 16 , an d1 6 o f 16 ?

TH E WITNESS : Yes . JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . An ddi d Corporat e Ai r handl e th e sam e shipments ?

TH E WITNESS : Yes . JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . Al l right . Counsel , REDIREC T EXAMINATIO N B YMR . LOMAZOW : Q Agen t Stiger , a t th e tim e o f acceptanc e o f a packag e marke dt o indicat e tha t i t contain s a hazardou s material , doe s a n ai r carrie r kno wa t tha t tim e - - actually , le t

m e rephrase . A t th e tim e o f acceptanc e o f a packag e marke dt o indicat e i t contain s a hazardou s material , doe s a nai r carrie r kno w a t tha t tim e whethe r i t doe s o r doe s not ? ATh e indicatio nwoul dbe , i f i t i s marke do nther e - - there' s a nindicatio n- - i f - - i f it' s full ymarke di naccordanc e wit h th e regulations , the nthere' s a nindicatio n

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 tha t i t i s a hazardou s material , a s wel l a s i f

there' s partia l marking s o r labelings . A t tha t point , there' s a nindicatio ntha t i t ma y contai na hazardou s material . Q S o whe na nai r carrie r receive s a packag e that' s marke dwit ha hazmat , lik e let ' s sa yidentificatio nnumber , U N3373 , doe s th e ai r carrie r hav e t o assum e a t tha t poin t tha t i t contain s a hazardou s material ? AA t tha t point , there' s stron g indicator s tha t th e materia l ma ycontai na hazardou s material , especiall ysomethin g uniqu e a s a U N3 3 7 3 markin g o nthere . Tha t raise s suspicio ntha t i t ma ycontai na hazardou s material , yes . Q An di nyou r opinion , i f a hazma t packag e i s improperl ymarked , i s tha t als o a n indicatio ntha t ther e migh t b e somethin g wron g wit hth e content s o f th e package ?

MS . CHANDLER-SNELL : You r Honor , I woul dobjec t a s i t call s fo r speculation , I thin k th e questio nis , i f it' s improperl y

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 marke do nth e outside , wha t d o yo u thin k th e

insid e ha s wron g wit hit ?

MR . LOMAZOW : That' s askin g base d

o nhi s opinion , base do nhi s experience . He' s a nexpert . Wha t doe s a nimprope r markin g indicate ? Coul di t indicat e th e presenc e - - o r coul di t indicat e a proble mwit hth e packag e itself ?

JUDG E GOODWIN : Well , I thin k we'v e bee nove r thi s no wextensively . Rephras e th e questio nan dre-as k it . Bu t w e plowe dthi s groun dquit e a bi t th e las t tw o days . MR . LOMAZOW : Okay . I understand . Judge . I'l l jus t withdra wit , then .

Actually , n o furthe r question s fo r Agen t Stiger .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Al l right . Agen t Stiger , yo u ca nste p down . I' mgoin g t o instruc t yo u tha t you r instructio nfro m yesterda ycontinues . You'r e stil l unde r oath . You'r e no t t o discus s you r testimon ywit h

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 anybod yprio r t o th e conclusio no f al l th e

hearings . TH E WITNESS : Yes , sir . (The witnes s wa s excused. ) JUDG E GOODWIN : An yadditiona l witnesse s fro meithe r sid e i nthi s case ? --o r i nthes e cases ? Thes e ar e th e - -

MS . CHANDLER-SNELL : I don' t thin k

w e hav e anyadditional witnesses , You r Honor .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Yo u wan t t o tak e jus t a coupl e minute s t o confer ?

MR . LOMAZOW : Ca nw e tak e a coupl e minute s t o confer ?

JUDG E GOODWI N Yeah . Let' s reconven e a t 2 5 minute s of . Let' s g o of f th e recor dfo r th e moment .

(Whereupon , a t 9:3 2 a.m . of f th e recor dunti l 9:4 4 a.m. )

JUDG E GOODWIN : Bac k o nth e record . Okay , Wher e ar e we , counsel ?

MR , LOMAZOW : Judge , jus t t o -

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 an dI kno wI'v e talke dt o Mik e abou t this , an d

I'v e talke dt o Cynthia , s o I certainl ydon' t

wan t t o confus e th e record . I n term s o f Agen t Stiger' s testimony, obviously , the yjus t discusse d- - counsel , mysel f an d Agen t Stige r hav e discusse dU N337 3 a d nauseam .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Right . MR . LOMAZOW : S o th e though t proces s tha t I had , an d I discusse dwit h Cynthia , i s tha t w e shoul dcoun t Agen t Stiger' s testimon yregardin g U N337 3 fo r bot h

cases , sinc e it' s goin g t o basicall yb e th e sam e issue . JUDG E GOODWI N I don' t hav e a proble mwit hthat .

MR . LOMAZOW : Okay . JUDG E GOODWIN : I ' 1 1 b e honest . M yphilosoph yo n thes e is , i f counse l agre e o n something , unles s it' s a n egregiou s violatio n o f th e rules , I'l l g o wit hit , becaus e it' s no t mycase , it' s you r case , I mak e th e decision , bu t ultimatel yit' s you r case .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 S o i s ther e an yfurthe r evidenc e

o r testimon yi nth e tw o case s o f Federa l Expres s Corporation , DMS-2010-0977 , an d Corporat e Air , DMS-2010-0975 , whic hwer e consolidate dfo r purpose s o f trial ?

MS . CHANDLER-SNELL : Nothin g further , You r Honor .

MR . LOMAZOW : Nothin g further . JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . Wha t I' m goin g t o as k yo u t o d o - - I'l l d o thi s closing , an dthe nwe'l l g o of f th e recor dan d

w e ca nstar t th e othe r case . Wha t I' mgoin g t o as k yo u t o d o i s - - Mike , what' s you r turnaroun do nth e transcript ?

TH E REPORTER : You r Honor , I' mno t reall ysur e wha t Nea l Gross' s turnaroun dtim e is . I' msuppose dt o hav e th e transcript s don e i ntw o week s fro mth e en do f th e trial .

JUDG E GOODWIN : What'1 1 happen , th e transcrip t i s prepared , sen t t o th e FAA Headquarter s o nth e othe r sid e o f th e worl da s fa r a s you'r e concerned , counsel . It'1 1

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1 eventuall ytrickl e bac k here . Wha t I' m goin g 2 t o as k FAAcounse l t o d o is , whe nyo u ge t th e 3 transcript , cal l Ms . Snell . Th e tw o o f yo u 4 wor k ou t a briefin g schedule . I' mgoin g t o b e 5 bus yquit e a bi t thi s fall . S o don' t fee l a 6 compulsio nt o ge t i t t o me , yo u know , th e en d 7 o f September , th e middl e o f October . Yo u wor k 8 ou t a schedul e that'l l wor k fo r you . 9 Wha t I normall yd o i s hav e th e FAA 1 0 brie f tw o week s afte r receip t o f th e 1 1 transcript , tw o week s t o th e Respondent , an d 1 2 the na wee k fo r rebuttal . Yo u wor k ou t you r 1 3 ow nschedule . Yo u wan t t o d o i t fou r weeks , 1 4 fou r weeks , tw o weeks , yo u wan t t o hav e th e 1 5 firs t brie f don e th e 1s t o f November , whateve r 1 6 work s fo r yo u two . 1 7 Then , obviously , wha t I wan t yo u 1 8 t o brie f i s whethe r I hav e t o accep t th e 1 9 regulatio no nthei r face , o r whethe r I hav e 2 0 th e righ t t o interpre t th e regulation . An di f 2 1 so , wha t ca nI tak e int o consideration ? 2 2 M yinstinc t i s that , t o som e



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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 extent , thi s i s a cas e o f firs t impression .

S o I thin k w e shoul dtak e ou r time , brie f i t properly . Whateve r decisio n- - I' mgoin g t o encourag e yo u t o brie f i t wit hth e ide a tha t i t migh t g o t o th e Circui t Court . Okay ? I' m no t goin g t o limi t yo u o nth e brief , bu t I

wan t th e brie f wel l done . Remember , ou r case s ge t reviewe db yeithe r th e D C Circui t o r th e Federa l Circuit .

Justic e Ginsbur g like s t o tak e ou r cases . I'v e rea da fe wo f his . Th e guy' s a fountai no f knowledge . I thin k that' s Justic e Ginsburg' s husband . I coul db e wrong . Somebod ytol dm e that . I've neve r take nth e tim e t o chec k i t out .

Bu t Judg e Ginsbur g o nth e Circui t Cour t take s a lo t o f DO T stuff . That' s wh yI

wan t yo u t o tak e you r tim e o nth e briefin g schedule . I f on e o f yo u run s int o a conflict , consul t wit heac hother . I f yo u tw o mutuall y agre e t o modif yth e schedule , sen dm e a n order . I'l l sig nit .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Anythin g els e i nthes e tw o cases ? MR . LOMAZOW : No , You r Honor . JUDG E GOODWIN : Ar e yo u sur e yo u don' t hav e anothe r question , Ms . Snell ?

MS . CHANDLER-SNELL : I ca nthin k

o f a few ?

record ? JUDG E GOODWIN : I' msur e yo u can .

MS . CHANDLER-SNELL : Ar e w e o nth e

JUDG E GOODWIN : Yeah . MS . CHANDLER-SNELL : I gues s I Woul drene wmymotio nt o dismiss , whic hYou r Hono r ha s alread yindicate dtha t you'1 1 consider . JUDG E GOODWIN : Yeah , I'l l tak e tha t unde r consideration .

MS . CHANDLER-SNELL : Than k you . JUDG E GOODWIN : An dI thin k fo r th e purpose s o f th e record , wha t yo u ma ywan t t o do , i f - - yo u tw o thin k abou t this . D o yo u wan t Responden t t o fil e th e motion , hav e th e FA Arespond , an daddres s tha t a s a preliminar y

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1 issu e befor e yo u brief , o r d o yo u jus t wan t t o 2 wra p i t al l int o th e brief ? You r call . Yo u 3 tw o talk . D o i t howeve r yo u wan t to . 4 Anythin g els e i nthes e tw o cases ? 5 MS . CHANDLER-SNELL : Nothin g fro m 6 us , You r Honor . 7 JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . Wha t I' m 8 goin g t o d o i s I' mgoin g t o g o of f th e record , 9 an dI' m

goin g t o tak e th e exhibit s fro mthi s 1 0 case , an dwe'r e goin g t o mov e the m ove r her e 1 1 an dge t the m ou t o f th e wa ys o w e ca nstar t 1 2 afres h- - thos e exhibit s tha t we'r e no t goin g 1 3 t o us e again . 1 4 MS . CHANDLER-SNELL : Okay . 1 5 JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay ? 1 6 MS . CHANDLER-SNELL : Yes , You r 1 7 Honor . 1 8 JUDG E GOODWIN : S o we'r e goin g t o 1 9 g o of f th e recor dfo r a fe wminutes . Whe nw e 2 0 com e bac k o nth e record , it'l l b e a ne wcase . 2 1 (Whereupon , th e above-entitle d 2 2 matte r adjourne da t 9:5 0 a.m. )

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C E R T I F I C AT E

Thi s i s t o certif ytha t th e foregoing transcrip t

I nth e matte r of : Corporat e Ai r

Before : u s DO T

Date : 08-25-1 1

Place : Seattle , Washingto n

wa s dul yrecorde dandaccuratel ytranscribe dunde r m ydirection ; further , tha t sai dtranscrip t i s a tru e andaccurat e recor do f the proceedings .


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