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IN THE MATTER OF: 

AUDIT HEARING: 

UTEPAC

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Pages: 1 through 23 

Place: Washington, D.C. 

Date: February 17, 2022 

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FEDERAL ELECTION COMMISSION 

IN THE MATTER OF: 

AUDIT HEARING: 

UTEPAC

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Remote Hearing 

Suite 206 

Heritage Reporting Corporation 

1220 L Street, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 20005 

Thursday, 

February 17, 2022 

The parties met remotely, pursuant to the notice, 

at 11:04 a.m. 

APPEARANCES: 

Commissioners: 

CHAIRMAN ALLEN DICKERSON 

VICE CHAIR STEVEN T. WAITHER 

COMMISSIONER SHANA M. BROUSSARD 

COMMISSIONER SEAN J. COOKSEY 

COMMISSIONER JAMES E. "TREY" TRAINOR, III 

COMMISSIONER ELLEN L. WEINTRAUB 

Staff:

MAUREEN BENITZ, Moderator 

VICKY ALLEN, Secretary 

LISA J. STEVENSON 

DAYNA BROWN 

RICKIDA MORCOMB 

CHRISTINA CRUSSIAH 

JENNIFR WALDMAN 

JESSICA SELINKOFF 

For the Respondent:

ROLLIE WILSON, Esquire 

Patterson Earnhart Real Bird & Wilson LLP 

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S 

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MS. BENITZ: Mr. Chairman, I can confirm 

that we are recording and you may gavel in the hearing 

when ready. 

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6 COMMISSIONER DICKERSON: The audit hearing 

UtePAC will now come to order. This hearing will be 

conducted pursuant to the procedural rules for audit 

hearings adopted by the Commission in 2009. Of course 

today we have Rollie Wilson, counsel for the 

Respondent committee. Welcome, sir. As I mentioned 

earlier, I'm sorry we weren't able to do this in 

person, and I appreciate you bearing with us as we 

navigate this historical moment. 

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On November 22, 2021, UtePAC received the 

Commission's draft final audit report and on December 

7th of that year, the Committee timely requested a 

hearing before the Commission, which was granted. 

Counsel, for today's hearing, you may make a 

brief opening statement. Following your presentation, 

the Commissioners, the general counsel and the staff 

director will have the opportunity to ask questions, 

and then at the end of today's hearing, you'll have 

the opportunity to make a closing statement. 

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1 present issues and arguments that you have already 

brought to the attention to the audit division and 

absent to your request by a Commissioner at this 

hearing or intervening events subsequent to your 

response to the DFAR, you may only present issues and 

arguments at the hearing that were raised in your 

response. 

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It is acceptable for UtePAC to 

present any information it wishes about the facts or 

circumstances underlying the audit and any argument it 

wishes to make about why it believes the findings in 

the draft final audit report are incorrect. 

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With that 

admonishment, counsel, you may proceed with your 

opening statement.

MR. WILSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I 

understand

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15 Thank you, all, for inviting UtePAC to hold 

a hearing before the Commission. It would have been 

nice to have done this in person, but I do appreciate 

the opportunity to be here with you all and discuss 

the audit with you. Last night, I was having lots of 

dreams I was going to show up as like a cat on the 

Zoom window. I was going to have to explain to the 

Judge that I was not a cat, so it looks like I made it 

through that hurdle, so hopefully things will be good 

from here on out with the technical things, and we 

appreciate you making the time. 

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1 The Ute Indian Tribe is -- well, my name is 

Rollie Wilson. I serve as one of the attorneys who is 

general counsel for the Ute Indian Tribe. I'm located 

here in D.C. and so I handle things like political 

matters and this matter before the Federal Elections 

Commission. We have a number of other attorneys in 

Colorado that also serve as general counsel for the 

Ute Indian Tribe. 

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9 The Tribe wished that they could have 

attended this hearing. As you might imagine, the 

Tribe is like any other government, and they are very 

busy overseeing, managing their lands and resources, 

providing governmental services and making sure that 

their members receive the benefits and unfortunately 

could not be here for this hearing today, but they did 

really express their interest in this hearing and 

working with the Federal Election Commission to 

resolve these issues in the best way possible, and 

really that's been the Tribe's perspective on this 

hearing from the beginning. 

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21 The Tribe is not UtePAC. The Tribe is its 

own sovereign governmental entity that created UtePac, 

so they have a strong, vested interest in what happens 

to UtePAC and making sure that UtePAC, with their name 

there off of the Ute Indian Tribe, but -- they're also 

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1 the Ute Indian Tribe, but their name -- that the 

reputation of UtePAC stands strong and as one of the 

first tribally established political action committees 

that UtePAC has a good place in the political 

community. So unfortunately they couldn't be here and 

they send their regrets, but thank you for having this 

hearing. 

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8 As I mentioned, the Tribe -- I don't know 

how often with the Federal Election Commission you all 

get to do Indian law, so I'll just briefly note the 

Tribe is a sovereign tribal government within the 

United States. They have a government-to-government 

relationship with the United States, and as I 

mentioned, the Tribe exercises many of the same 

authorities as the federal government, state 

government and local government. 

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17 The Tribe is also, like other governments, a 

major sponsor and employer of the activities occurring 

on the reservation and in their region. The Tribe has 

a lot of employees within its government but then also 

employees of tribal entities that promote economic 

development on the reservation. As a part of that, 

the Tribe felt that in maintaining relationships with 

the state of Utah, surrounding committees and the 

United States that it was important to establish a 

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political action committee that could help the Tribe 

with its communications in relation to mostly federal 

government activities as well as things on the ground 

out in the State of Utah. 

And I emphasize the governmental role of the 

Ute Indian Tribe because in a lot of ways they have 

the exact same concern that the Federal Election 

Commission has with the operation of UtePAC. The 

Tribe oversees UtePAC in its governmental capacity and 

when it first became -- even before learning about the 

FEC audit, the Tribe initiated its own audit of UtePAC 

in January of 2020. The Tribe engaged in that audit, 

engaged an outside independent consultant in that 

audit, and during that audit was unable to get records 

from its current treasurer who at the time -- the 

former treasurer, who at the time was Mr. Robert 

Lucero. He became unresponsive and within a month or 

two of initiating that audit, the Tribe fired its 

former treasurer, Mr. Robert Lucero. 

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20 A week or two or so after firing Mr. Lucero, 

after the Tribe had put its general counsel, including 

myself, in as a manager of UtePAC, I'm a registered 

agent of UtePAC, and also the Tribe directed that its 

comptroller, who runs our finance and accounting 

department, he's a certified public accountant, to 

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1 oversee the finances of UtePAC. So myself, working 

together with the Tribe's comptroller, we were asked 

to step in, stabilize UtePAC and also within a couple 

weeks, we learned about the Federal Election 

Commission's audit of UtePAC that was actually 

initiated back in October of 2019. 

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7 From the five months from when the FEC audit 

was initiated until the former treasurer was fired and 

we took over UtePAC, at no time during that period did 

he ever inform anyone with the Tribe or working with 

UtePAC that UtePAC was under audit. So once we 

learned about that, the Tribe directed myself and its 

comptroller to take every action possible not only to 

complete the Tribe's ongoing audit, but also to 

respond to and address issues brought up in the 

Federal Election Commission's audit. 

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17 So from the Tribe's perspective, we are 

working hand in hand with the Federal Election 

Commission not only to produce the records that Mr. 

Lucero failed to maintain but also to correct hundreds 

and hundreds of reporting violations that Mr. Lucero 

made over his time as treasurer at UtePAC, and so 

that's what we've been doing for the last year and a 

half to two years working very closing with your audit 

staff, who many of them I see on the call today, and 

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it's a pleasure to finally meet you in person. They 

know that we -- I think they can attest that we have 

been working very, very hard to recover records and 

correct filings that were made with the Commission. 

And, in fact, getting those records from 

former Treasurer Lucero has been one of the most 

challenging firsts of the audit. As I mentioned 

earlier, Mr. Lucero he provided some initial documents 

but never really responded to the Tribe's audit of 

UtePAC. There are in the neighborhood of $400,000 

covering the Tribe's audit from -- excuse me. 

(Pause.) 

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13 MR. WILSON: There we go. I lost my notes 

on the Tribe's audit. The Tribe's audit from December 

2018 to February 2020, there's approximately $400,000 

of unexplained disbursements, cash withdrawals and 

checks, and we were not able to get records from Mr. 

Lucero explaining the disbursements. 

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19 In a way, the results of the Federal 

Election Commission audit were similar. While we were 

able to produce many, many more records, I think 

having the authority of the FEC behind the audit 

helped with that effort. There still remains 

approximately $300,000 of unexplained disbursements 

and activities by Mr. Lucero, so in some ways, your 

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government and the Tribe's government ended up in 

similar positions with the audit. We got as many 

records as we could from Mr. Lucero, corrected as many 

entries with the Federal Election Commission as we 

could, but we're left subject to his reckless, 

inadequate and poor record keeping such that we, in 

many cases, just simply could not answer questions 

about specific disbursements and the use of those 

funds. 

So as noted, without going into the details, 

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involvement with UtePAC as one of its major sponsors 

and, in fact, you're all folks are probably better at 

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these number than I am, but around 80 to 90 percent of 

the funding that is the subject of the FEC audit is 

actually tribal governmental funds that were provided 

to UtePAC for its operations. UtePAC was not one of 

these political action committees that was really good 

at raising money. We were not raking in hundreds of 

thousands from public sources. The vast majority of 

the funding in UtePAC's bank accounts came directly 

from the Tribe for Mr. Lucero's operational expenses. 

I think as an important clarification, I 

vote for your oversight of the Committee, certainly 

all of the same Federal Election Commission laws need 

to be fulfilled and complied with. However, the 

subject of those filings were primarily tribal funds 

and not public sources of funding. 

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16 In disbursing those funds to UtePAC, the 

Tribe has an extensive and rigorous process in how 

it's providing those funds. Mr. Lucero was asked to 

come before the Tribe's governing body because of the 

business committee and provide an annual or semiannual 

budget for how he was going to use funds, and in later 

years, he would also report on milestones or 

accomplishments in the prior year with that funding. 

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1 the director and treasurer of UtePAC, but it appears 

on hindsight that he did not use that funding as 

provided by the Tribe or he paid himself to do those 

activities for UtePAC and all the ways that he did pay 

himself beyond his administrative fees are still 

unexplained, so he would present those budgets to the 

Tribe as far as his accomplishment. 

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8 According to the Tribe's constitution, all 

expenditures would be approved by a resolution, and 

after a funding resolution was approved, it would go 

through several more internal checks within the Tribe 

and sign offs before funding was released to UtePAC. 

This included having a funding requisition request and 

approval -- an approved and signed resolution, an 

improved budget, invoice and signed contract and 

supporting documentation, such as a W-9. Excuse me. 

The Tribe's executive director and comptroller, who we 

are now working with now to stabilize UtePAC, would 

sign off on these requisition requests. 

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The Tribe deferred to Mr. Lucero's 

expertise. He was hired for his expertise or at least 

stated expertise in running PACs and complying with 

Federal Election Commission requirements, and he 

indicated to the Tribe that further controls over his 

spending -- these funds did not need to be implemented 
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1 by the Tribe because he would comply with all FEC 

requirements and reporting and that that would provide 

the record of his financial compliance. 

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comply with FEC requirements, he did not institute any 

internal financial controls in his management of 

UtePAC and made a number of false and fictitious 

statements. 

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9 I think the Tribe in hindsight as it has 

been investigating his activities, you know, UtePAC 

was a small operation. Having two people now working 

for UtePAC, we've doubled the staff of UtePAC. At the 

time that he was running UtePAC, he was the sole 

signer and operator of the PAC's funds and certainly, 

in retrospect, having multiple signers at the PAC 

level is definitely a best practice that the Ute Tribe 

looks forward to implementing once they complete this 

audit. 

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19 So, as I noted, Mr. Lucero was hired for his 

experience and he stated that he would comply with FEC 

requirements. We now know that he did none of these 

things, including the simple act of maintaining 

records. As I noted, obtaining records throughout the 

audit has been one of the most challenging things and 

many of the -- they did not need to be taped together, 

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1 but many of the records that he eventually scanned and 

sent over to us were crumpled up as though they were 

in a trash can or in a box somewhere and not properly 

filed, so he did not maintain those records with any 

care or upon his termination provide us with boxes and 

boxes for the three to four years he was managing 

UtePAC. 

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8 Some of the important actions that I wanted 

to highlight for you that he took during his tenure as 

UtePAC's director and treasurer and one in particular 

occurred just before the FEC's audit of UtePAC 

started, which was in January -- your all's audit 

started in January of 2017. In September and October 

of 2016, within a month of his being hired and UtePAC 

being set up, this investigation that the Tribe has 

conducted produced records showing that one of his 

first actions after obtaining funding from the Tribe 

to manage UtePAC was to transfer those funds from 

UtePAC to another PAC that Mr. Lucero set up called 

New Deal PAC. 

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directly and also to pay an LLC that he set up, 

American Systems Group, and this falls outside of the 

FEC's audit but it's an early and important sign of 

his -- where he was headed with this spending of 

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1 UtePAC funds and misuse of UtePAC funds for his 

personal benefit. Another thing that he did early on 

was he set up a contract between UtePAC and his LLC, 

so he eventually got the Tribe to sign that contract, 

but as the director and treasurer of UtePAC, its sole 

representative and also the owner of his new LLC, he 

was essentially signing a contract -- making a 

contract with himself. 

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activities was he used $23,000 of UtePAC funding to 

purchase a vehicle, which he later sold for $10,000, 

and there's no record what happened to that $10,000. 

All the while, his contracts with UtePAC stated that 

he would be charging per mileage driving personal 

vehicles to UtePAC events. Another big problem that 

we encountered in the audit was documenting 

transactions through things like Square and Venmo 

accounts. I don't yet have a Venmo account. I think 

we have a PayPal account somewhere that I sort of know 

how to use. I'm not totally familiar with how Square 

and Venmo work, but Mr. Lucero was proficient in 

processing -- disbursing UtePAC funds through Square 

and Venmo transactions. 

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1 things that we learned in cooperation with the Federal 

Election Commission audit staff. The Tribe was 

pleased to have the assistance of the staff in 

producing those results, and I don't want to single 

out anyone in particular, but I can tell you that your 

all's audit staff worked tirelessly to chase these 

things down and help us as a tribal government produce 

this information. Certainly, he was nearly 

unresponsive to the Tribe's requests for these kinds 

of documents. 

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response to the audit, as I've mentioned, the Tribe 

takes the audit very seriously, feels that it has the 

same governmental responsibilities as the Federal 

Election Commission in the oversight of UtePAC in 

conducting its own audit, and ever since the Tribe has 

learned of the FEC's audit, they've spent the next two 

years and directed myself and its comptroller to 

correct hundreds of filings with UtePAC and also 

produce as many records as possible so that we could 

restore the good name of UtePAC. 

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about his knowing and willful misuse of funds and 

reckless failure to maintain records. We did receive 

the draft final audit. 

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1 COMMISSIONER DICKERSON: Mr. Wilson, I'm 

sorry to interrupt. I just want to check on the Vice 

Chair. Mr. Vice Chair, are you with us? 

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4 VICE CHAIR WAITHER: Yes, sir. 

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19 We would like to see the items removed that 

we've been able to correct, and finally, and in 

particular, there is the statement that there was --

in finding 3, a violation in the amount of $131,300 

for cash transactions. That was later explained 

through a letter from the bank that these were account 

transfers and not cash transactions. So at a minimum, 

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COMMISSIONER DICKERSON: Okay. Excellent. 

You may proceed, counsel. I remind you this is 

intended to be a short introduction leading into a 

question period. 

MR. WILSON: Oh, I apologize. Thank you. I 

will wrap it up, Mr. Chairman. Like a lot of things 

in Indian country, we have a long story to tell, so I 

appreciate your all's attention, so we did receive the 

draft final audit report. The UtePAC believes that 

the draft final audit report should reflect extensive 

efforts that we've made to correct the record. In 

many cases, the response has been well these errors 

occurred in the first -- or violations occurred in the 

first place, so they can't be removed. 
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1 that "violation" should be reduced or explained to say 

that those cash transactions were incorrectly 

interpreted, as explained by the bank. 

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UtePAC are not here to contest the audit findings in 

general, although we would like to see the ones that 

we've corrected removed, but as a governmental entity, 

we're here to comply and see what we can do to get 

UtePAC moving forward in a good way. 

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15 I apologize if I ran on too long. Thank you 

so much for your attention. I'm happy to answer any 

questions that you all may have. 

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18 COMMISSIONER DICKERSON: Thank you,

counselor. Colleagues? Is there any questions from 

the staff director or the Office of General Counsel? 

VICE CHAIR WAITHER: Mr. Chairman? 

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22 COMMISSIONER DICKERSON: Mr. Vice Chair. 

VICE CHAIR WAITHER: I would be interested 

to know what information we're still seeking at this 

point, or do we believe we've obtained all that we're 

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1 likely to get at this point? 

2 COMMISSIONER DICKERSON: Mr. Wilson? 

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, thank you Mr. 

Vice Chair for the question, and I -- we worked so 

closely with your audit staff. I think that they can 

attest to this or provide their own view as well. 

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7 Just roughly speaking, for the time period 

that UtePAC was under audit by the FEC, this may be --

I don't know -- 30 percent of the records that the 

former treasurer was never able to produce or refused 

to produce. Sometimes when he would refuse to produce 

things, we would investigate and find them on our own, 

but after a year and a half of this investigation, I 

think we probably have hit as many dead ends as we can 

in producing information, and then to the best of our 

ability using that information we corrected our 

reporting with the FEC. 

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18 VICE CHAIR WAITHER: Thank you. I used to 

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MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I thank you for 

the question. Mr. Vice Chair, yes, we've done work in 

Nevada, too, and appreciate the Nevada. It's like 

many places in Indian country's Nevada Indian Tribes 

unique and difficult circumstances and representing 

those folks is an important service. Thank you. 
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1 COMMISSIONER DICKERSON: Thank you, 

counselor. 

Commissioner Trainor? 

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4 COMMISSIONER TRAINOR: Mr. Wilson, how much 

has the Tribe spent in doing its own audit and then 

going through this process with the Commission to get 

to where we are and just roughly as a guess how many 

things have been corrected that were initially 

identified? 

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MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, thank you 

Commissioner Trainor for the question. That's a great 

question. I don't know if it would be possible, Mr. 

Chairman, to get back to the Commission with some 

written responses. We have been tracking the attorney 

time spent on this effort by the Ute Indian Tribe, and 

with a little bit of effort, I could produce that 

number for you. 

COMMISSIONER DICKERSON: Mr. Wilson, I think 

the rules do contemplate such an additional filing, 

but at least for purposes of the hearing, the 

intention is to stay within the four corners of what 

was previously briefed, so my recommendation would be 

to answer Commissioner Trainor's question in writing 

rather than here orally at the table. 

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, thank you, and we 
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will do that. 

COMMISSIONER DICKERSON: Commissioner 

Broussard? Any further questions for counsel? 

Thank you very much. Mr. Wilson, you're 

entitled to a closing statement if you choose to move 

forward. 

MR. WILSON: Okay. Well, thank you. I've 

probably covered everything in my opening statement 

and again appreciate your all's attention. It may be 

not the typical PAC situation, and so I think it was 

worth the time spent describing the efforts that the 

Ute Indian Tribe, as a tribal government, took to do 

its own investigation and audit of UtePAC. And again, 

our goal, the Tribe's goal is to uncover as much of 

this misuse as possible, document it, correct the 

record and move UtePAC forward in a good way, and we 

appreciate certainly the extensive help of your audit 

staff and legal counsel in guiding us through that 

process. I hope they feel that we worked with them as 

partners, because that's the way that we felt about it 

and it was definitely what we were hoping to do. 

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report -- so to the extent of the final audit report 

can remove and eliminate things that we have been able 

to correct due to the Tribes extensive efforts doing 

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1 that, we would certainly appreciate that and make that 

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3 COMMISSIONER DICKERSON: Thank you, Mr. 

Wilson. We appreciate your being here, and thank you 

for your kind words for our staff here at the 

Commission. With that, this hearing's adjourned. 

(Whereupon, at 11:38 a.m., the hearing in 

the above-entitled matter was concluded.) 

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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 

DOCKET NO.: --

CASE TITLE: Audit Meeting: UtePAC 

HEARING DATE: February 17, 2022 

LOCATION: Washington, D.C. 

I hereby certify that the proceedings and 

evidence are contained fully and accurately on the 

tapes and notes reported by me at the hearing in the 

above case before the Federal Election Commission. 

Date: February 17, 2022 

Angela Brown 

Official Reporter 

Heritage Reporting Corporation 

Suite 206 

1220 L Street, N.W. 

Washington, D.C. 20005-4018 

Heritage Reporting Corporation 

(202) 628-4888 
UtePAC 

P.O. Box 190 

Fort Duchesne, Utah 84026 

March 25, 2021 

Via Email 

Dayna C. Brown 

Audit Division Assistant Staff Director 

Federal Election Commission 

1050 First Street, NE 

Washington, D.C. 20463 

Email: elee@fec.gov; rlmorcomb@fec.gov 

RE: Corrections to UtePAC Audit Hearing Transcript 

Dear Assistant Staff Director Brown: 

Thank you for the opportunity to submit an errata sheet correcting errors in the transcript 

for the UtePAC Audit Hearing held on February 17, 2022. Thank you for also providing the list 

of corrections submitted by staff for the Federal Election Commission. We agree with the 

corrections submitted by staff and provide the following additional corrections: 

• On page 4, line 20 insert “for” before “UtePAC” 

• On page 8, line 2 replace “the” with “governmental” 

• On page 8, line 8 replace “hearing” with “audit” 

• On page 8, line 8 and 9 replace “its own” with “a” 

• On page 8, line 12 and 13 replace “their name there off” with “the name” 

• On page 8, line 13 and 14 delete “but - - they’re also the Ute Indian Tribe, but their 

name - -” 

• On page 8, line 22 delete “with” 

• On page 8, line 22 and 23 replace “you all get” with “gets” 
UtePAC March 25, 2022 

Corrections to Audit Hearing Transcript Page 2 

• On page 11, line 21 replace “firsts” with “efforts” 

• On page 11, line 25 replace “covering the” with “covered by” 

•

•

• On page 13, line 24 replace “vote” with “note” 

• On page 14, line 2 replace “filings” with “funds” 

• On page 14, line 6 replace “relying to” with “providing” 

• On page 14, line 7 delete “because of” 

• On page 14, line 20 replace “as far as” with “as well as” 

• On page 15, line 3 replace “improved” with “approved” 

• On page 15, line 13 replace “pending” with “spending of” 

Please let us know you have any questions or need any other information regarding these 

corrections to the hearing transcript, as well as any other issue related to the audit. 

Sincerely, ncerely,

Rollie Wilson

Agent, and Counsel for UtePAC 

Patterson Earnhart Real Bird & Wilson LLP 

601 Pennsylvania Ave., NW, South Bldg, Suite 900 

Washington, D.C. 20004 

rwilson@nativelawgroup.com