From: Robert Berman [mailto:bermaneconomics@gmail.com] 

Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 12:53 PM 

To: Bob Smith 

Cc: 'Robert Berman'; 'Kenneth Winder'; 'Richard Parker'; phopkinson@hvolt.com; 

Aaron.Meyers@cooperindustries.com; adelaski@standardsasap.org; ahofmann@publicpower.org; Aris 

Marantan; artrosenfeld@gmail.com; august.esch@gmail.com; Brian Coffey; bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com; 

cabolduc@lbl.gov; Caitlin Johnson; carlos.gaytan@ge.com; carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com; 

chad.kennedy@us.schneider-electric.com; charlied@uus.org; chuck.simmons@pgnmail.com; 

clark.silcox@nema.org; cstephens@neea.org; Daniel.Cohen@hq.doe.gov; dave.millure@metglas.com; 

DYoung@energy-solution.com; eduardorobles@eaton.com; Eric.Petersen@aksteel.com; gbf1@pge.com; 

gjrosenquist@lbl.gov; greg.coulter405@gmail.com; James.Lass@cleco.com; 

Jennifer.Tiedeman@hq.doe.gov; Jeremiah.Freeman@ee.doe.gov; jerry.corkran@cooperindustries.com; 

jerry.schoen@aksteel.com; Jim.creevy@nema.org; Jim.Raba@ee.doe.gov; jmauer@standardsasap.org; 

john.caskey@nema.org; john.cymbalsky@ee.doe.gov; jrossetti@mlgw.org; kcoughlin@lbl.gov; 

maheshsampat@bellsouth.net; mark.stoering@xcelenergy.com; Matthew Nardotti; 

maxinesavitz@aol.com; mhyland@appanet.org; Michael Rivest; mwaltner@nrdc.org; 

Paul.Ryan@hitmet.com; phil@pjharter.com; pkumar@publicpower.org; Raymond.Polinski@atimetals.com; 

rgreeson@federalpacific.com; rick.anderson@faypwc.com; robert.saint@nreca.coop; 

robert.vanbuskirk@ee.doe.gov; rroy@nrdc.org; ScottB@lvmetals.com; snadel@aceee.org; 

srosenstock@eei.org; tballo@earthjustice.org; Teckman@nwcouncil.org; thomas.patzner@us.schneiderelectric.com; vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com; Zhimei Luo; 'Jerry Hodge' 

Subject: Re: Replacement Cost for Transformer Pole 

Bob, 

Utility practices are what they are. Those practices must be taken as a given. It is important to 

understand what those practices are, under what circumstances, and to what extent they may 

differ from one utility to the next. Similarly, joint pole associations provide a cost sharing 

mechanism that also may differ from association to association. All of that information is 

important to developing an assessment of pole expense related to additional transformer weight. 

Regards,

Robert A. Berman, Principal

Berman Economics

www.BermanEconomics.com

1915 Grand Court

Vienna, VA 22182

703‐281‐0490

703‐655‐8398 (cell)

BermanEconomics@gmail.com
On Oct 20, 2011, at 12:38 PM, Bob Smith wrote: 

Robert:

I don’t know why you want to revisit all the technical aspects associated with installing heavier

transformers on utility poles.  The electric utilities have stated that they are not going to risk injury to

personnel or property by placing significantly heavier transformers on utility poles.  You are somewhat

right about vertical weight; but don’t forget about projected area and high wind.  

Bruce Hirsh got the point, and stated his understanding very well.

I hope you can accept the fact that heavier and bigger pole transformers , resulting from higher

efficiency standards, will in many cases cause additional pole expense for reasons well discussed earlier.

Thanks,

Bob Smith, PE

Product Manager

Federal Pacific

601 Old Airport Road

Bristol, VA 24201 

TEL: (276) 645-8836

FAX: (276) 645-8212

CELL: (276) 591-6143

Email: bsmith@federalpacific.com

The information contained in this message and any attachments is intended only for the use of the individual or 

entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from 

disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, you are prohibited from copying, 

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From: Robert Berman [mailto:bermaneconomics@gmail.com] 

Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 12:15 PM 

To: Bob Smith 

Cc: 'Robert Berman'; 'Kenneth Winder'; 'Richard 

Parker'; phopkinson@hvolt.com; Aaron.Meyers@cooperindustries.com; adelaski@standardsasap.org; ahof
mann@publicpower.org; amarantan@navigant.com; artrosenfeld@gmail.com; august.esch@gmail.com; b

rian.coffey@navigant.com; bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com; cabolduc@lbl.gov; Caitlin.Johnson@navigant.com; c

arlos.gaytan@ge.com; carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com; chad.kennedy@us.schneiderelectric.com; charlied@uus.org; chuck.simmons@pgnmail.com; clark.silcox@nema.org; cstephens@neea.

org; Daniel.Cohen@hq.doe.gov; dave.millure@metglas.com; DYoung@energysolution.com; eduardorobles@eaton.com; Eric.Petersen@aksteel.com; gbf1@pge.com; gjrosenquist@lbl.g

ov; greg.coulter405@gmail.com; James.Lass@cleco.com; Jennifer.Tiedeman@hq.doe.gov; Jeremiah.Free

man@ee.doe.gov; jerry.corkran@cooperindustries.com; jerry.schoen@aksteel.com; Jim.creevy@nema.or

g; Jim.Raba@ee.doe.gov; jmauer@standardsasap.org; john.caskey@nema.org; john.cymbalsky@ee.doe.

gov; jrossetti@mlgw.org; kcoughlin@lbl.gov; maheshsampat@bellsouth.net; mark.stoering@xcelenergy.c

om; matthew.nardotti@navigant.com; maxinesavitz@aol.com; mhyland@appanet.org; mrivest@navigant.

com; mwaltner@nrdc.org; Paul.Ryan@hitmet.com; phil@pjharter.com; pkumar@publicpower.org; Raymo

nd.Polinski@atimetals.com; rgreeson@federalpacific.com; rick.anderson@faypwc.com; robert.saint@nrec

a.coop; robert.vanbuskirk@ee.doe.gov; rroy@nrdc.org; ScottB@lvmetals.com; snadel@aceee.org; srosen

stock@eei.org; tballo@earthjustice.org; Teckman@nwcouncil.org; thomas.patzner@us.schneiderelectric.com; vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com; zhimei.luo@navigant.com; 'Jerry Hodge' 

Subject: Re: Replacement Cost for Transformer Pole

 

Bob, 

 

It's not who shares the cost, it's that the cost is shared. There are two pieces to this. First, the 

payment by the utility (and thus the ratepayer) is 1/3 of the total cost (in the case of a 3-way 

share, less if others such as alarm companies are also using the pole). Second, on a cost-causative 

basis, and from a social perspective, it's not simply the weight of the transformer, but the total 

weight of all fixtures / uses. Moreover, to the extent that the sue applies horizontal stress (i.e., 

lines, etc.) rather than simply vertical weight, the problem is substantially greater. (See for 

example RUS Bulletin 1724E-150.) For example, three transformers mounted triangularly, as in 

many commercial areas, may not require any pole replacement because all weight is 

vertical. Some large California utilities have reported that they would have no problem with the 

extra transformer weight, if that was the only thing that was on the pole. So, for our purposes, I 

believe that the easiest approach to the analysis is to follow the approach that the joint pole 

associations follow; possibly adjusted for any information we might have about the likelihood 

that the transformers may be mounted in a group of three versus individually. 

 

Hope that helps. 

Regards, 

Robert A. Berman, Principal 

Berman Economics 

www.BermanEconomics.com

1915 Grand Court 

Vienna, VA 22182 

703-281-0490 

703-655-8398 (cell) 

BermanEconomics@gmail.com
 

On Oct 20, 2011, at 11:32 AM, Bob Smith wrote: 

Robert:

I am confused, in our analysis what possible difference does it make who shares the cost?

Thank you,

Bob Smith, PE

Product Manager

Federal Pacific

601 Old Airport Road

Bristol, VA 24201 

TEL: (276) 645-8836

FAX: (276) 645-8212

CELL: (276) 591-6143

Email: bsmith@federalpacific.com

The information contained in this message and any attachments is intended only for the use of the individual or 

entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from 

disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, you are prohibited from copying, 

distributing, or using the information. Please contact the sender immediately by return e-mail and completely delete 

the original message from your system.

From: Robert Berman [mailto:bermaneconomics@gmail.com] 

Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 11:22 AM 

To: Jerry Hodge 

Cc: Kenneth Winder; Richard 

Parker; phopkinson@hvolt.com; Aaron.Meyers@cooperindustries.com; adelaski@standardsasap.org; ahof

mann@publicpower.org; amarantan@navigant.com; artrosenfeld@gmail.com; august.esch@gmail.com; B

ermanEconomics@gmail.com; brian.coffey@navigant.com; bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com; bsmith@federalpacif

ic.com; cabolduc@lbl.gov; Caitlin.Johnson@navigant.com; carlos.gaytan@ge.com; carlosgsiqueiros@eato

n.com; chad.kennedy@us.schneiderelectric.com; charlied@uus.org; chuck.simmons@pgnmail.com; clark.silcox@nema.org; cstephens@neea.

org; Daniel.Cohen@hq.doe.gov; dave.millure@metglas.com; DYoung@energysolution.com; eduardorobles@eaton.com; Eric.Petersen@aksteel.com; gbf1@pge.com; gjrosenquist@lbl.g
ov; greg.coulter405@gmail.com; James.Lass@cleco.com; Jennifer.Tiedeman@hq.doe.gov; Jeremiah.Free

man@ee.doe.gov; jerry.corkran@cooperindustries.com; jerry.schoen@aksteel.com; Jim.creevy@nema.or

g; Jim.Raba@ee.doe.gov; jmauer@standardsasap.org; john.caskey@nema.org; john.cymbalsky@ee.doe.

gov; jrossetti@mlgw.org; kcoughlin@lbl.gov; maheshsampat@bellsouth.net; mark.stoering@xcelenergy.c

om; matthew.nardotti@navigant.com; maxinesavitz@aol.com; mhyland@appanet.org; mrivest@navigant.

com; mwaltner@nrdc.org; Paul.Ryan@hitmet.com; phil@pjharter.com; pkumar@publicpower.org; Raymo

nd.Polinski@atimetals.com; rgreeson@federalpacific.com; rick.anderson@faypwc.com; robert.saint@nrec

a.coop; robert.vanbuskirk@ee.doe.gov; rroy@nrdc.org; ScottB@lvmetals.com; snadel@aceee.org; srosen

stock@eei.org; tballo@earthjustice.org; Teckman@nwcouncil.org; thomas.patzner@us.schneiderelectric.com; vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com; zhimei.luo@navigant.com

Subject: Re: Replacement Cost for Transformer Pole

 

We also need to take into account that joint users also share the cost. 

Regards,

Robert A. Berman, Principal

Berman Economics

www.BermanEconomics.com

1915 Grand Court

Vienna, VA 22182

703‐281‐0490

703‐655‐8398 (cell)

BermanEconomics@gmail.com

 

On Oct 20, 2011, at 10:27 AM, Jerry Hodge wrote: 

 

Ken: 

Does your pole change out estimate include the costs incurred by the other joint users of the pole 

such as the telephone or TV cable companies for transferring their equipment from the old to the 

new pole? Sometimes too, the pole is owned by one of the other joint users and you may have to 

wait until they can begin their work before the power co. can act. Time is an important issue. 

 All of this can add to the cost of change out. 

Jerry 

Jerry Hodge 

Consulting Engineer, E.E., M.S., P.E. 

Retired V.P. & G.M. of Pole Type Transformer & Regulator Div. 
Howard Industries Inc. 

P.O.Box 1588 

Laurel, Ms, 39440 

601 422-1539 Bus. 

484 226-6190 Cell 

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-----Original Message----- 

From: Kenneth Winder [mailto:kwinder@mleainc.com] 

Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 7:37 PM 

To: Richard Parker 

Cc: phopkinson@hvolt.com; Aaron.Meyers@cooperindustries.com; 

adelaski@standardsasap.org; ahofmann@publicpower.org; 

amarantan@navigant.com; artrosenfeld@gmail.com; august.esch@gmail.com; 

BermanEconomics@gmail.com; brian.coffey@navigant.com; 

bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com; bsmith@federalpacific.com; cabolduc@lbl.gov; 

Caitlin.Johnson@navigant.com; carlos.gaytan@ge.com; 

carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com; chad.kennedy@us.schneider-electric.com; 

charlied@uus.org; chuck.simmons@pgnmail.com; clark.silcox@nema.org; 

cstephens@neea.org; Daniel.Cohen@hq.doe.gov; dave.millure@metglas.com; 

DYoung@energy-solution.com; eduardorobles@eaton.com; 

Eric.Petersen@aksteel.com; gbf1@pge.com; gjrosenquist@lbl.gov; 

greg.coulter405@gmail.com; James.Lass@cleco.com; 

Jennifer.Tiedeman@hq.doe.gov; Jeremiah.Freeman@ee.doe.gov; 

jerry.corkran@cooperindustries.com; jerry.schoen@aksteel.com; Jerry 

Hodge; Jim.creevy@nema.org; Jim.Raba@ee.doe.gov; 

jmauer@standardsasap.org; john.caskey@nema.org; 

john.cymbalsky@ee.doe.gov; jrossetti@mlgw.org; kcoughlin@lbl.gov; 

maheshsampat@bellsouth.net; mark.stoering@xcelenergy.com; 

matthew.nardotti@navigant.com; maxinesavitz@aol.com; 

mhyland@appanet.org; mrivest@navigant.com; mwaltner@nrdc.org; 

Paul.Ryan@hitmet.com; phil@pjharter.com; pkumar@publicpower.org; 

Raymond.Polinski@atimetals.com; rgreeson@federalpacific.com; 

richardparkerdc@gmail.com; rick.anderson@faypwc.com; 
robert.saint@nreca.coop; robert.vanbuskirk@ee.doe.gov; rroy@nrdc.org; 

ScottB@lvmetals.com; snadel@aceee.org; srosenstock@eei.org; 

tballo@earthjustice.org; Teckman@nwcouncil.org; 

thomas.patzner@us.schneider-electric.com; vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com; 

zhimei.luo@navigant.com; Chris Boulduc; Ken Winder 

Subject: Replacement Cost for Transformer Pole 

Richard and Committee: 

 Attached is a spreadsheet showing the cost to replace an existing 

pole in a three-phase distribution circuit with an existing single-phase 

distribution transformer mounted on it. This information was developed 

to estimate the cost to replace an existing pole with a new, higher 

strength pole required because of the increased weight of the 

distribution transformer. This estimate represents the cost to do this 

for my Cooperative. 

 Other Utilities will be furnishing this information for their systems. 

Kenneth A. Winder, PE 

 

 

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