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84–881ps 2003

IMPLEMENTATION OF PUBLIC LAW 107–95, THE

COMPREHENSIVE VETERANS HOMELESS ASSISTANCE ACT OF 2001, AND OTHER MATTERS DEALING WITH ASSISTANCE TO HOMELESS VETERANS

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

SEPTEMBER 12, 2002

Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs

Serial No. 107–39

(
COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS

CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey, Chairman

BOB STUMP, Arizona

MICHAEL BILIRAKIS, Florida

TERRY EVERETT, Alabama

STEPHEN E. BUYER, Indiana

JACK QUINN, New York

CLIFF STEARNS, Florida

JERRY MORAN, Kansas

HOWARD P. (BUCK) MCKEON, California

JIM GIBBONS, Nevada

MICHAEL K. SIMPSON, Idaho

RICHARD H. BAKER, Louisiana

ROB SIMMONS, Connecticut

ANDER CRENSHAW, Florida

HENRY E. BROWN, JR., South Carolina

JEFF MILLER, Florida

JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas

LANE EVANS, Illinois

BOB FILNER, California

LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois

CORRINE BROWN, Florida

JULIA CARSON, Indiana

SILVESTRE REYES, Texas

VIC SNYDER, Arkansas

CIRO D. RODRIGUEZ, Texas

RONNIE SHOWS, Mississippi

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts

SHELLEY BERKLEY, Nevada

BARON P. HILL, Indiana

TOM UDALL, New Mexico

SUSAN A. DAVIS, California

PATRICK E. RYAN, Chief Counsel and Staff Director

(II)
(III)

C O N T E N T S

September 12, 2002

Page

Implementation of Public Law 107–95, the Comprehensive Veterans Homeless

Assistance Act of 2001, and other matters dealing with assistance to homeless veterans ......................................................................................................... 1

OPENING STATEMENTS

Chairman Smith ...................................................................................................... 1

Hon. Susan A. Davis ................................................................................................ 3

Hon. Bob Filner ....................................................................................................... 4

Hon. Shelley Berkley ............................................................................................... 6

Hon. Ciro D. Rodriguez ........................................................................................... 7

Prepared statement of Congressman Rodriguez ............................................ 53

Hon. Lane Evans, ranking democratic member, Full Committee on Veterans’

Affairs .................................................................................................................... 8

Prepared statement of Congressman Evans .................................................. 51

Hon. Tom Udall ....................................................................................................... 9

Prepared statement of Congressman Udall ................................................... 54

Hon. Jeff Miller, prepared statement of ................................................................ 53

WITNESSES

Boland, Raymond, Secretary, Wisconsin Department of Veterans Affairs ......... 22

Prepared statement of Mr. Boland .................................................................. 68

Boone, Linda, Executive Director, National Coalition for Homeless Veterans .. 31

Prepared statement of Ms. Boone ................................................................... 82

Gaines, Scott, veteran, U.S. Navy .......................................................................... 45

Kingston, G. Allan, President/CEO, Century Housing Corporation, Los Angeles, CA ................................................................................................................... 24

Prepared statement of Mr. Kingston, with attachment ................................ 71

Kuhn, John, Chief, New Jersey Homeless Services, Department of Veterans

Affairs .................................................................................................................... 41

Prepared statement of Mr. Kuhn .................................................................... 103

Mangano, Philip, Executive Director, Interagency Council on Homelessness .... 35

Prepared statement of Mr. Mangano .............................................................. 98

McCoy, Jerome, veteran, U.S. Marines Corps ....................................................... 48

Otis, Winter, veteran, U.S. Army ........................................................................... 47

Principi, Anthony J., Secretary, Department of Veterans Affairs; accompanied

by Peter H. Dougherty, Director, Office of Homeless Veterans Programs,

Office of Public and Intergovernmental Affairs; M. Gay Koerber, Associate

Chief Consultant, Health Care for Homeless Veterans, Veterans Health

administration; Diane Fuller, Assistant Director, Veterans Services Staff,

Compensation and Pension Service, Veterans Benefits Administration ......... 10

Prepared statement of Secretary Principi ...................................................... 60

Schneider, Richard C., Director, State/Veterans’ Affairs, Non Commissioned

Officers Association; Executive Director, Interagency Council on Homelessness ........................................................................................................................ 33

Prepared statement of Mr. Schneider ............................................................. 91

Thomas, Carroll, Chief Executive Officer, Middlesex County Economic Opportunity Corporation ............................................................................................... 43

Prepared statement of Mr. Thomas ................................................................ 106

Van Keuren, Robert, Chairman, Advisory Committee on Homeless Veterans ... 29

Prepared statement of Mr. Van Keuren ......................................................... 81
Page

IV

MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Statements:

AMVETS ........................................................................................................... 108

Disabled American Veterans ........................................................................... 111

Vietnam Veterans of America ......................................................................... 113

Written committee questions and their responses:

Chairman Smith to Department of Veterans Affairs .................................... 122

Congressman Evans to Department of Veterans Affairs .............................. 131

Congresswoman Davis to Department of Veterans Affairs ........................... 134

Chairman Smith to Wisconsin Department of Veterans Affairs .................. 135

Chairman Smith to Century Housing Corporation ....................................... 137

Congressman Evans to Century Housing Corporation .................................. 143

Congressman Evans to National Coalition for Homeless Veterans ............. 146

Chairman Smith to John Kuhn, Chief, New Jersey Homeless Services,

Department of Veterans Affairs .................................................................. 148

Chairman Smith to Carroll Thomas, CEO of Middlesex County’s Economic Opportunity Corporation ................................................................... 152
(1)

IMPLEMENTATION OF PUBLIC LAW 107–95,

THE COMPREHENSIVE VETERANS HOMELESS ASSISTANCE ACT OF 2001, AND OTHER

MATTERS DEALING WITH ASSISTANCE TO

HOMELESS VETERANS

THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 12, 2002

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS,

Washington, DC

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 1:30 p.m., in room

340, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Christopher H. Smith

(chairman of the committee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Smith, Evans, Filner, Rodriguez, Berkley, Udall, Davis, Miller, and Boozman.

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN SMITH

The CHAIRMAN. The meeting will come to order. I want to thank

everyone for coming here today, and welcome especially our very

distinguished Secretary of Veterans’ Affairs, Secretary Principi,

and also Secretary Boland, and our other witnesses who have been

stalwart in the efforts to mitigate homelessness among our

veterans.

One year ago, our Nation was attacked by terrorists who killed

almost 3,000 Americans. Yesterday, we all paused to remember

those who perished, those who suffered the incalculable loss of a

loved one, those who responded, and those who engaged and are

engaged in the war on terrorism.

As in all wars, the men and women on the front lines, our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines, will bear a special burden.

Some will be wounded, some will not return home. And those that

do may forever bear the scars of their service to our Nation physically, mentally, and emotionally.

The purpose of today’s hearing is to ensure that our government

does not forget any of the men and women who have risked their

lives to defend our freedom. Specifically, we are here to ask what

has been done, what is being done, and what remains to be done

to help end the plague of homelessness among our veterans.

We know that there are at least 275,000 homeless veterans on

the streets every night in America. We know that a majority of the

homeless veterans suffer from serious mental illnesses. Drug and

alcohol abuse often complicate their situations, and lead to much

greater trouble in their lives. Some homeless veterans have spent
2

time behind bars—homelessness is both a result and a cause of

these other problems.

We need to help these people. This devastation of lives must

cease, and it must end, and it must end now. Last year, working

in a true bipartisan fashion, our committee made significant

progress toward ending homelessness among veterans.

I was proud to sponsor, along with my good friend, Lane Evans,

H.R. 2716, legislation that set the ambitious goal of ending chronic

homelessness among our veterans within a decade.

Our legislation, now Public Law 107–95, authorized an increase

of almost $1 billion over 5 years, including: historic increases in

VA’s grant and per diem program; substantial new funding for the

homeless veterans integration program, or HVRP; demonstration

projects that deal with the most serious mentally ill homeless veterans; approaches for homeless veterans with special needs, such

as female veterans with dependant children; projects that focus on

jailed or imprisoned veterans; a supported housing voucher program administered jointly by the VA and the U.S. Department of

Housing and Urban Development; technical assistance grants to

community-based organizations, and a number of other matters important to me and to this Congress and to the American people.

Now, with one year down and nine to go, I am very anxious to

hear how we are doing. What strides have been made? Where are

we falling short? Do we need to reinforce advocacy and accountability? What affect is outreach having? Collaboration between VA,

HUD, and Labor, is it working? Is this legislation making a difference in the lives of veterans? If so, how, and if not, why not? Is

more legislation or more funding needed?

I hope to hear detailed and responsive answers today to these

and other questions that need to be aired, discussed, and resolved.

Let me highlight that this has been a very troubling issue, one of

the issues that has been very troubling to me, since I became

Chairman last January.

In 1998, Congress enacted Public Law 105–368, which authorized

the VA to establish a pilot program to guarantee up to 15 significant loans for multi-family transitional housing projects, aimed at

helping up to 5,000 homeless veterans, to help them re-enter the

mainstream of American life through one of its most basic tenants,

a permanent home.

Transitional housing is a linchpin in that quest. That authority

was extended to the VA 4 years ago, and I am troubled to note

today that, despite past assurances, not a single loan guarantee

has been made.

There have been studies, reports, consultants, and conferences.

But the bottom line is that 4 years after enactment, not a single

loan guarantee has been made. I realize that it takes time to implement any new program, but with all due respect, the VA has

been guaranteeing loans for housing since passage of the Serviceman’s Readjustment Act of 1944, also known as the GI Bill of

Rights.

In that time, the VA has guaranteed more than 16 million housing loans for veterans. So the argument that loan guarantees are

something entirely new to the VA simply does not wash with me.
3

I also realize that Secretary Principi has been on the job for just

18 months, but this program, I would respectfully submit, is long

overdue. With 275,000 homeless veterans on the streets tonight— more than the entire U.S. Marine Corps—we don’t have the luxury

of studying this problem any more. We need action now.

I understand that we will hear about the VA’s plans to move forward with this program from the Secretary. I hope that you will

be very specific about how and when this program will finally get

off the ground, and when we can expect to see any of the first

homeless veterans and their families in new transitional housing.

The goal of ending chronic homelessness among veterans is a

great challenge, and I know that this is not the last time we will

hold hearings about homeless veterans, the mentally ill, or the

drug-addicted, and what our government is trying to do to mitigate

these problems.

We must continue to fight the good fight, using the tools that we

have, and adding new tools when necessary to end this scourge of

chronic homelessness, especially among those who have served our

Nation in the military.

With committed advocates like so many of you in this room

today, I am confident that we can and we will make significant

progress. Clearly, our veterans deserve no less.

I would like to yield to Mrs. Davis, if you have an opening

comment?

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SUSAN A. DAVIS

Mrs. DAVIS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted

to thank you and the ranking member for bringing us together

today to discuss a serious topic in our veteran community, the

issue of homelessness.

This issue really resonates with me, because San Diego’s commitment and involvement with homeless veterans is well known, and

we all have been very involved in that, and I have been delighted

to join my colleague, Congressman Bob Filner, in that effort, as

well, because he has been working so hard in San Diego for many,

many years.

In 1988, a group of Vietnam veterans held the first Stand Down

in San Diego, CA, and today, many of you know, that Stand Down

is a nationwide partnership, and I have been very pleased to, I

guess for about the last 7 years or so, attend that. But I have also

felt that what we really want to do is put that out of business, because what we need to have is the continuity in the community

that means that we don’t have to have a Stand Down every year.

But it has done a remarkable job. The first Stand Down highlights the problems of homelessness among veterans, and it really

is to the dedication of Vietnam veterans of San Diego, and others,

that we have this continued outreach.

I believe that eliminating chronic homelessness requires a holistic approach, and I know that my colleague has mentioned Public

Law 107–95, and also 105–368. And I share the concern, and have

really learned recently how important it is for us to move forward

on this second program. We have the knowledge in the community,

I believe, and we need to put that all together and make sure that

it happens. There really is no reason that we can’t move forward.
4

Public Law 107–95, as you know, brings together government

agencies, private and public sector entities, including communitybased organizations, to work cooperatively and to end chronic

homelessness among veterans within a decade.

And I want to really commend the capacity-building provisions of

the homeless provider’s grant and per diem programs because they

really have found themselves in situations where they are reaching

out and helping—against, really, some odds in the community—

and we have not developed enough beds for the general homeless

population.

The grant and per diem program increases capacity for homeless

vets without decreasing the number of general beds, and that has

been important.

I want to just mention my interest in moving forward—and perhaps we will be able to address this today—in exploring the issue

of a use of mentorship programs to fortify existing transitional assistance programs.

Presenting our service members with information and resources

before they separate is critically important, and I know I have

heard from a number of veterans we have better programs out

there today than we did in the past. But I am of the opinion that

if we provide that transition and that information and that support

earlier in the process, then hopefully we will see fewer vets who

find themselves homelessness once they separate.

But more than that, I think we need a support network for them,

and many programs have shown, whether it’s a transition from

other institutions, that people need somebody there to nudge them,

to hold them up at times, and also to be a kind of parent when they

lose hope and control for the future.

So, that kind of a program that would involve—the American Legion was here earlier—and others is something that we need to

look at where there have been some successful practices with this,

best practices, and try and develop it further.

Perhaps we begin in communities in a small way, but I believe

that in San Diego, particularly, we have many, many people who

would be willing to provide that role. It’s an important one, and I

think we need to explore that. So I just look forward to hearing the

witnesses today, and seeing how we can implement, and look at the

progress that has been made and move forward from this point on.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mrs. Davis. Mr. Miller, the gentleman from Florida?

Mr. MILLER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate it. I have

a written statement I would like to insert into the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, it will be part of the record.

[The prepared statement of Congressman Miller appears on p.

53.]

The CHAIRMAN. The chair recognizes Mr. Filner, gentleman from

California.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BOB FILNER

Mr. FILNER. I thank the chairman, and appreciate your holding

this very important hearing. Is Bob Van Keuren in the audience?
5

Bob, who is going to testify later, Mr. Chairman, started the first

Stand Down in the United States, in San Diego, 15 years ago. (Applause.)

And he is still fighting the fight but you don’t look the same

somehow—where is your beard?

(Laughter.)

Mr. FILNER. You know, Bob, I have been to almost all the 15

Stand Downs since you started them. What Bob did was an incredible thing. I know the Secretary has been there also.

He has shown that for 3 days, when we concentrate on the

issues, we bring the community together, we bring the resources together, we can deal with the problems that our homeless veterans

have. We show that in communities all across the Nation for 3

days.

I have been giving this speech, Bob, for the last 5 years. I don’t

want to come back to any of these Stand Downs, because we have

shown we can do it. Why can’t we do it 365 days a year? We can

deal with this problem if we focus on it. And that’s what we’re all

about, that’s what the people in the audience are about, that’s what

this committee is about, and I think the VA is about.

But I am not sure, Mr. Secretary, that that focus of attention

that is shown in Stand Down comes out of the bureaucracy. As I

read your testimony—and I know your personal commitment to

this, and I know how it hurts you to see homeless veterans—but

this far-flung bureaucracy which you have—I won’t say control of,

but which you head—it doesn’t seem to react to what it is being

told.

In fact, your testimony differs from what other people who are

on the front lines see. I am not sure you’re being at all well served

by the information coming up, through the bureaucracy. I hope

that you or one of your representatives stays to hear the testimony

after yours. I think the following panels have things to say to you

that you need to hear.

Nobody doubts your or the VA, as an institution’s, commitment.

But it is not focused. You know, we have passed Public Law 107–

95, which the chairman just spoke so eloquently about.

He led the way, with Congressman Evans, to develop a comprehensive strategy to address the needs. And you know it has to

be comprehensive to get the mental health and substance abuse

and dental care. The dental care is critical. If you can’t smile because your teeth are rotten, you can’t go out into society. It’s as

simple as that. The dental care is so important.

But the job training, the outreach, the transitional housing—I

don’t think that you can implement this legislation, given the resources that Congress and this administration seem willing to give

you.

I hope that you ask for the resources, Mr. Secretary. I am going

to ask you point blank when your turn comes—of course, your turn

may never come if we all keep talking—that I want you to commit

to requesting the funds for at least 2004, that you will need to implement these goals.

Again, I know you want to do this. And yet, as the chairman

pointed out, we passed multi-family transitional housing loans for
6

homeless veterans. Mr. Chairman, you said 4 years, I heard it will

be 6 years before the first loan ever gets out of there.

Now, that’s not a way to run a ship. It just seems, Mr. Chairman, that we have to maybe make Bob Van Keuren the Czar of the

situation, cut through the bureaucracy, as he was able to do so

well. You saw him in action. When he cut through the bureaucracy,

when he got people’s attention, when he got their motivation, the

people were there, the people wanted to do something. We solved

the issues. We cleared up their legal problems, we gave them the

dental care, we gave them the job training. They got substance

abuse care—they were safe, they felt secure for 3 days. And then

we sent them back to the streets.

We can do better. They deserve for us to do better. So, I hope

that we can get to the heart of these issues and be less bureaucratic, and really get these guys off the streets and into productive

lives again. They worked for America, America has to work for

them now. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. Mr. Boozman.

Mr. BOOZMAN. I just appreciate you being here and discussing,

you know, such an important topic. I appreciate all the work that

you are doing for us.

The CHAIRMAN. The chair recognizes Ms. Berkley.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SHELLEY BERKLEY

Ms. BERKLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, again, for coming to

the forefront on behalf of veterans. And thank you, Secretary

Principi. It’s always a pleasure to see you. Thank you for sending

your number two person to Vegas. We ran him ragged, but I think

it was a very positive experience for him, and a very positive experience for my veterans.

I am going to be leaving a staff member here after my opening

remarks, because I have a phone conference with my VA director

because, as you know, we have just sent a letter of non-compliance

to the VA clinic, and we will be evacuating the VA clinic in Las

Vegas and looking for another place so that that building doesn’t

fall on top of those veterans’ heads. And I appreciate everything

you have done with that.

As you know, the Las Vegas area has one of the fastest growing

populations in the United States, the fastest-growing veterans population. We have about 220,000 veterans in the State of Nevada,

but over 78 percent of them reside in southern Nevada, or live in

southern Nevada.

Over a third of the homeless in Clark County, in southern Nevada, are veterans. And that’s one of the highest numbers of homeless veterans per capita in the United States. I have approximately

6,700 homeless veterans in the Las Vegas metropolitan area.

Now, when I met with them over the Fourth of July weekend,

and we had an open house for all of our homeless vets, it struck

me that most of these very well-educated, very polite men were my

age. And while I was in college during the sixties, they were over

in Vietnam. And the Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome that they

suffered left a lasting impression on their lives, and destroyed their

lives, and they are now living in the streets of Las Vegas.
7

Las Vegas bears the economic and social burden for regional

homelessness because whatever tremendously inadequate and pathetic resources for homeless veterans happens to be in the Las

Vegas area. So we end up being a magnet for all the other homeless veterans in the entire region.

Fifty percent of the homeless veterans in the Las Vegas area

served in combat. Service organizations in Las Vegas found that

the Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome is the primary reason why

they are homeless.

We have two programs in Las Vegas. One of them is able to provide 118 beds and HELP of Las Vegas is able to provide another

78 beds for homeless veterans. This is not—when you have 67 veterans out in the street, this couple of hundred beds just simply

isn’t adequate. And housing people on a night-to-night basis isn’t

getting the job done, either.

Now, I know you have got the best of intentions, but we are in

desperate, desperate need of help, especially after 9/11. I mean, I

believe that this country will see battle over the next several years,

and we will be increasing the number of our veterans as this decade goes on.

How can we ask men and women to join the armed forces, to

stand up for their Nation, to fight on behalf of the United States

and all of our cherished values, if we are not living up to the obligations that we have to our existing veterans?

So, while I know that your heart is in the right place, and you

and I have spoken on many occasions, and have what I consider

a very cherished friendship, I am asking you once again to please

help us. I am in desperate, desperate need to help my veterans in

the Las Vegas Valley. And I am sure I echo the same concerns that

435 Members of Congress share. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Mr. Rodriguez, the gentleman from

Texas.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CIRO D. RODRIGUEZ

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And let

me also submit a written statement.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Thank you very much. Mr. Secretary, good to

see you again. I want to thank you for—every time I have asked

you to come to San Antonio, you have been there. So I want to

thank you personally.

I want to talk a little bit about the concerns that always come

up in my area. I have a district that runs from San Antonio down

to the Mexican border, down to Hidalgo.

I have a little part of Hidalgo, but most of it belongs to Congressman Hinojosa—almost half-a-million people in the 200 miles south,

and then next to it you have 300,000 people that belong to Congressman Ortiz. So they are not my areas, but they are areas that

are full of veterans that have to go all the way to San Antonio for

medical services.

I know we have a clinic in McAllen, but there is a real need in

this area—there has even been some talk about cutting that district up, because it’s so huge, and it has so many veterans. The

people in this region have to travel more than 200 miles to access
8

a hospital, sometimes even longer than that if they’re in Brownsville, and both from Congressman Ortiz’s and Hinojosa’s district, in

the extreme south of Texas.

And now, the issue of homeless veterans, I am real pleased, Mr.

Chairman, with what we have done in that area. I am hoping that

we can put the resources there, because throughout this country,

the data shows—and I don’t know the recent research on whether

the VA has done any research—but roughly one-third to almost 40

percent of our homeless suffer from mental health problems.

There is a real need for us to reach out and continue to reach

out to those individuals. Even from health professions, that’s one

of the areas that is neglected—even as politicians—we talk about

health care, but when it comes to the mentally ill, it’s kind of the

last thing that we touch. And the same thing applies with our veterans services.

The MH area is an area that we still need to push, and investigate how we can reach out to—because they are not the type you

can set a schedule for, they are not going to do it. They are mentally ill, they are sick, and so we need those kind of programs that

reach out to them, and provide them with case work.

And I know you all understand that, and I am preaching to the

choir, but I do want to thank you for what you have been doing.

And we are going to keep pushing as much as we can, and I know

you will too. And maybe we can get some of those bureaucrats in

the system to also be responsive. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

[The prepared statement of Congressman Rodriguez appears on

p. 53.]

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to yield to the distinguished ranking

member of the full committee, Lane Evans.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LANE EVANS, RANKING DEMOCRATIC MEMBER, FULL COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’

AFFAIRS

Mr. EVANS. I want to thank everybody for being here with us

today. Many years now—about 20—you have been really a tenacious battler for veterans on all issues, but particularly this one.

Mr. Secretary, I appreciate that kind of focus and concern for detail that you have been giving us this year, and so forth. And you

have been a very good leader. We haven’t always agreed with each

other, but by and large we have. And I always like to say that you

were the best-picked Cabinet official that George Bush has ever

had, and I am proud that you are supporting legislation to deal

with this homeless issue.

I have also been addressing this issue for the almost 20 years

that I have been in the Congress as well. As one person said—I’m

trying to think who said it—really, homelessness is a problem we

didn’t have until the 1980s. And that if we didn’t tolerate it then,

why should we tolerate it now? And why are we taking this step

backwards?

The veterans’ service organizations and individuals interested in

this are really weighing in, coming from all parts of America to say

that we want the best possible legislation you can get considering

the homelessness issue, That’s what I think we are here to do.
9

I appreciate your holding this hearing, Mr. Chairman, and I look

forward to the remarks.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. The chair recognizes Mr.

Udall.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. TOM UDALL

Mr. UDALL. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I would

ask that my statement, my full statement, be put in the record, so

I can keep it very brief here, because we certainly want to hear

from the Secretary.

Mr. Secretary, I would just say, to give you—to shorten my statement in one brief example of a veteran in New Mexico—this young

man’s name is Martin Cordova. He was living on the streets of

New Mexico as a homeless veteran.

And one day, he decided—this young man decided—that he was

going to pull himself up by the bootstraps and start a program. He

started a program, it’s a bootcamp-style rehabilitation re-entry program for the homeless. He uses vets in the program to work with

homeless veterans and try to deal with substance abuse, he tries

to deal with all of the problems, whether it’s mental illness, drug,

alcohol addiction, all of that in this program.

And the reason I bring the program forward and talk about it a

little bit and the commitment Mr. Cordova has made to this, is

that we made a big step when we passed the Homeless Veterans

Comprehensive Act of 2001, and I think we need to implement

that, we need to put the funding behind it to support programs

that are out there like this.

So, I would just urge you to do that and support the programs

that are out in the community, and I look forward to further questions and the presentation of the Secretary. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and ask that my full statement be part of the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Your full statement will be made a part of the

record, thank you.

[The prepared statement of Congressman Udall appears on p.

54.]

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to introduce our very distinguished

Secretary, Tony Principi, who is the Secretary of Veterans’ Affairs

for the United States.

A combat-decorated veteran, Secretary Principi has spent a lifetime on veterans issues, and doing it with great distinction. He is

extremely knowledgeable, he is effective, he has a heart for the veterans, and he has been responsive not just to members of this committee, but to any Member of Congress or any veteran who requires his assistance.

We all know—and I say this for especially everyone in the room

who already know it as well—you can be a great advocate and

champion, which Secretary Principi is, but he has to fight within

a larger battlefield, OMB, the Office of Management and Budget,

which very often has what seems to be the last word, and many

others who are competing for scarce resources.

The fight is also in the Appropriations Committee and the Budget Committee, but I would say especially in the Appropriations

Committee, where very often there is a competition between veter-
10

ans programs and other programs. And that ought not be, but it

is.

A graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy in 1967, Secretary

Principi first saw active duty aboard the destroyer, USS Joseph P.

Kennedy, then he commanded a River Patrol Unit in Vietnam’s

Mekong Delta.

He has a law degree from Seton Hall University, and was assigned to the Navy’s Judge Advocate General Corps in San Diego,

and worked there, as well, and just has been what I think—and I

have been here 22 years—an outstanding and a tenacious Secretary of Veterans’ Affairs.

Even though he can’t do all that he can do—and that’s part of

why we’re—that’s where the counterpressure comes from us—we’re

trying to help you, Mr. Secretary, in your fight that you have

sometimes within OMB and elsewhere. But please make your

presentation.

STATEMENT OF ANTHONY J. PRINCIPI, SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS; ACCOMPANIED BY PETER H.

DOUGHERTY, DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF HOMELESS VETERANS

PROGRAMS, OFFICE OF PUBLIC AND INTERGOVERNMENTAL

AFFAIRS; M. GAY KOERBER, ASSOCIATE CHIEF CONSULTANT, HEALTH CARE FOR HOMELESS VETERANS, VETERANS

HEALTH ADMINISTRATION; DIANE FULLER, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, VETERANS SERVICES STAFF, COMPENSATION AND

PENSION SERVICE, VETERANS BENEFITS ADMINISTRATION

Secretary PRINCIPI. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. I very

much appreciate your warm introduction. Today I am accompanied

by Pete Dougherty, who is the director of VA’s homeless programs,

Ms. Gay Koerber, who is the associate chief consultant for homeless programs in the Veterans Health Administration, Ms. Diane

Fuller, from the Veterans Benefits Administration, the assistant director of the compensation and pension division.

Mr. Chairman, Mr. Evans, members of this committee, thank you

for inviting us to testify on a very, very important issue. Let there

be no misunderstanding. There certainly is no disagreement. I

think we share—I know you share—every member of this committee shares a passion for ridding society of the plight of the homeless, especially among our veteran population.

And I commend you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Evans, and the members of this committee, for your landmark legislation, a great piece

of legislation, the Comprehensive Homeless Veterans Assistance

Act of 2001.

Clearly, we have much to do. You know, in 1996, the national

survey of homeless service providers reported 34 percent of homeless veterans said their last episode of homelessness lasted 13

months or more, compared to 17 percent for non-veterans. This was

in 1996, granted—31 percent of currently homeless veterans in the

survey said they had 4 or more periods of homelessness, compared

to 16 percent for non-veterans.

Clearly, according to this survey in 1996, veterans were a disproportionate share of the homeless population in this country.

But I think we are making progress. In recent years, the percentage of homeless veterans, that was about 45 percent in 1987, has
11

been reduced to 36 percent. Clearly, that figure is still way too

high. I think none of us will be satisfied until the veteran homeless

population is down to zero percent.

Let me talk a little bit about some of the good things that have

happened. I appreciate what Mr. Filner said—that you have all

said—that we have a long way to go. But I really do think that you

and the people at VA can take some pride in what has been accomplished in caring for homeless veterans.

I don’t believe there is any agency of government—State, Federal, local—that does more for homeless people than VA. VA programs include, from a nationwide perspective, not only housing,

but efforts to cover the underlying causes of homelessness—mental

health, PTSD, drug and alcohol abuse, and unemployment, the

things that lead to homelessness in our society.

Over the past few years—the past 3 reporting years—the number

of grant and per diem programs has gone from 29 operating site

programs to 126, from serving fewer than 2,200 veterans to over

10,000 veterans today, nearly a five-fold increase in vets that VA

supports through the grant and per diem programs.

Our health care for homeless veterans staff conducted nearly

45,000 clinical assessments of homeless veterans last year. This is

a 37 percent increase from the year before, and an 80 percent increase since fiscal year 1997.

VBA has sold, at a discount, 182 foreclosed properties to nonprofit homeless service providers. If each of these properties provide housing to just four people a day, we have been able to take

more than 700 homeless veterans off the streets and place them in

one of these foreclosed properties that have been turned over to

non-profit providers.

In addition, VBA will soon have 20 or more full-time housing coordinators at the largest regional offices, and this will enhance access to benefits information, expedite claims and improve services

for homeless veterans. Also VA is establishing a strong reporting

requirement to document the results of these efforts.

The President re-activated the Inter-agency Council on the

Homeless. I went to the first meeting in July, and another meeting

scheduled in December, so that we can work together as partners

at the Federal level to bring together resources and data to enhance service delivery options across State and local levels. I am

very, very pleased that we have kicked off that effort, and I believe

you will be hearing more about that later this afternoon.

I know that VA needs the benefit of the experience of men and

women working in the trenches to help homeless veterans if VA is

to succeed. And that is why I promised at my confirmation hearing

to create an advisory committee to help me formulate policy. This

Spring—and it was part of your landmark legislation—I appointed

15 members to that advisory committee, and they held their first

meeting in June, and they will meet again next week in Cleveland.

They are an active, engaging, and enthusiastic group with firsthand experience, and I really wanted to get people—not high level

policy people, I wanted to get people like Mr. Filner indicated, people like Bob Van Keuren, who started the Stand Down program,

people who are in the field, on the front lines, caring for homeless

veterans.
12

They know what works, and they know what doesn’t work. I

have asked them to tell me what works, so that we can put more

resources to programs that are, in fact, helping veterans get off the

street, get off drugs, help them with their mental disabilities, mental illnesses, find good jobs, and find housing.

I am proud that Bob Van Keuren; Ray Boland—another great advocate for the homeless and Secretary of Veterans’ Affairs in the

State of Wisconsin; and of course, Dick Schneider of NCOA, who

has been a real champion for homeless programs, are on the committee. All of us will be working to identify real solutions.

I would also like to mention VA’s participation in Stand Downs.

During the last 7 years, more 130,000 veterans and their families

have attended these outreach assistance programs. The program

that was started in San Diego is now national; it’s across the country. Every jurisdiction I go into, every district, folks tell me that

they’re going to be having a Stand Down coming up, or they just

had a Stand Down, and how successful it’s been.

There have been nearly 800 Stand Downs and assistance fairs

targeted to homeless veterans across the country—115,000 volunteers and VA staff have helped to organize and provide services at

these events.

Now, there is a significant need for housing for formerly homeless veterans who have availed themselves of many of VA’s programs. You talked about your disappointment in the multi-family

transitional housing guarantee program. While I appreciate your

concerns, I am here today to tell you that we will move aggressively to implement this program.

At the beginning, I was very concerned about it. Notwithstanding

the fact, as you pointed out, Mr. Chairman, VBA has vast experience in loan guarantees for single family housing, but I was deeply

concerned that the Veterans Health Administration did not have

the expertise in multi-family, really low-income, housing. It’s a different discipline, and it requires different types of skills and financial expertise.

But I have decided to move this program out of VHA and into

the Capital Asset Management office, headed by Claude Hutchison.

Claude Hutchison comes to the VA with vast financial experience

in the banking and housing industry. I think he’s the right leader

with the right experience and background to head this program.

I expect by early next year, we will have the notice of funding

available so that we can begin with this pilot, and have the first

loan guarantees implemented in the near future. So I commit to

you that we will move aggressively.

While I did have some concerns at the beginning, I have been

assured now that we can move ahead. VA officials have met with

the consultant recently and I will keep you posted on the

developments.

Mr. Chairman, we have a long way to go. We have too many

homeless veterans, as you have all pointed out. I think we are

working hard. We need more resources, I have never kept that a

secret.

The provision of law, quite honestly, says, ‘‘Mr. Secretary, you

are authorized to provide services, health care, to the extent funds

are made available to you in appropriation acts.’’ And this land-
13

mark homeless legislation came to VA after the appropriation bill

was signed into law. VA did not receive additional funding for this

legislation.

So, in the context of everything if is trying to do to address the

needs of the myriad veterans who come to us for health care, primary care, inpatient surgical care, mental health, we’re trying to

make those dollars go as far as we possibly can. Thank you very

much.

[The prepared statement of Secretary Principi appears on p. 60.]

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary. Would any

of your associates care to make any comments?

Secretary PRINCIPI. They will answer your questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, this is their chance to say whatever it is

that they want.

Well, let me just ask a couple of questions, to start off with. I

was very glad to hear you say you wanted to aggressively implement the loan guarantee. I like that word, ‘‘aggressively.’’

You know, anything we can do to assist going forward—you

know, I would just say, parenthetically, that we have introduced

legislation, and it is a bipartisan bill, which hopefully will gain currency, and quickly, in the area of health care to make it mandatory, the idea being that nickel and diming through appropriations

processes each and every year, always worrying about under-funding, we ought to just marry up the need with the resources, and

realize that veterans are owed this, and that would free up, obviously, and make more available to our homeless veterans the resources they need to get well, and to be mainstreamed back into

society.

Pat Ryan and I, just a couple of days ago, visited a veterans’

haven in Ancora, which is in south New Jersey, it’s a State-run faculty. I often get out like members of this committee, and visit various State and Federal VA outreaches for all kinds of things, but

this is targeted just for homeless.

In our conversation with the director we learned that the veterans there were getting donated dental services, because the waiting

lines were far too long to get them from—in this case, it would be

from Pennsylvania, from Philadelphia VA.

During the course of our mark-up on this legislation, we heard

from numerous witnesses saying how absolutely important nutrition, health, and pain alleviation is to veterans. Obviously bad

teeth lead to terrible consequences. When teeth are broken,

cracked, and in disrepair, bad teeth lead to diminished prospects

of getting a job.

We put this in there because we felt we could do a major rehab

of our homeless veterans’ teeth, for all the good reasons. Can you

tell us when that would be made available?

Secretary PRINCIPI. A team from our general counsel office and

our homeless provider office have met. They have drafted regulations, we are ready to move forward with those regulations.

The draft regulations will go through the process at the other

end of Pennsylvania Avenue and will be published. We should have

it done by March—by early next year. It takes 90 days to get them

published, so I would hope by March of next year.
14

The CHAIRMAN. The sooner, the better, but thank you, I do appreciate that.

You know, I just want to build on something you said earlier,

and there is good news to be said, and it should not be overshadowed by the remaining unmet need, which—the responsibility

falls on us, as well as you—but when we were crafting this legislation, we sat down with Peter and with Gay, and asked you, ‘‘What

works?’’

I will never forget, that was a very important 21⁄2 or so hours we

spent with you, and that’s when you talked about the domiciliaries,

and you had a lot of information about where the best bang for the

buck could be had.

We put into the bill, as you might recall, authorization for 10

new domiciliaries, and I wonder if you might tell us where we are

on that, and what we might expect, in terms of increasing the

availability of those DOMS for our vets.

Secretary PRINCIPI. The domiciliaries have remained relatively

constant. I believe we have around 5,000 beds available for homeless veterans.

There was an issue that a domiciliary in Portland, OR was

closed, and the patients were being referred to White City. However, I know of no plans to increase the number of domiciliary

beds. There is a review going on, but I would hope that we would

be able to maintain—even given our funding situation—approximately 5,000 domiciliary beds for homeless veterans.

The CHAIRMAN. With all due respect, I would hope that we could

relook at that, and we obviously can work with our appropriators

to try to direct funding towards that, because as was pointed out—

and I have visited DOMS myself, as have, I’m sure, virtually every

member of the committee—they do really lead to a changed life, on

the part of the veteran, and have very high positive outcomes, as

a result of it.

We did anticipate moving towards the establishment of 10 more

to try to fill the need, as part of a comprehensive approach. So I

would hope that, moving forward, you would look to increase that.

We should be looking to increase it. So I hope you would.

Secretary PRINCIPI. I would also point out—it’s a little bit off the

domiciliary issue, although it is related—that, as you know, we

have expanded the grant and per diem program to fund more beds.

Our experience has shown us that in the first year of a grant,

usually we’re the sole source of funding for a non-profit homeless

provider. But in following years, through cooperation with HUD

and with HHS, and with other State and local organizations, homeless service providers receive more and more grants from other

sources to expand the number of beds available.

So, I think the partnership aspect of expanding the number of

transitional housing beds is working, and is beginning to grow

exponentially.

Mrs. DAVIS. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could just have one follow-up question to that. It has just come to my attention that part

of the issue right now may be that the structure is actually changing in these particular lodging situations, in the domiciliary, so

that they are no longer supervised. Could you address that?
15

Secretary PRINCIPI. Well, let me ask the real expert. Gay, could

you answer that question?

Ms. KOERBER. I’m sorry, could you say that again?

Mrs. DAVIS. Has the structure of the program changed, so that

the veterans are no longer supervised in these domiciliary programs, the lodging programs?

Ms. KOERBER. You’re talking about what we in the VA call

Hoptel beds, or lodger beds?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, right.

Ms. KOERBER. I think that VA has increased the number of lodger beds that are available, and they are, in fact, unsupervised beds

for veterans who would be coming from long distances, perhaps

from more than 50 miles away, or when they need to travel for

more than 2 hours. Those beds are available for veterans who have

appointments and for family members who may be accompanying

them.

One of the conditions for staying in a lodger bed is that veterans

must be medically stable, and must be able to take care of themselves. So that’s truly the purpose of the lodger beds or the hoptel

beds.

Mrs. DAVIS. Is there a plan, then, to really assess and monitor

what affect this change in structure is actually having on the veterans?

Ms. KOERBER. I don’t believe that the lodger beds are in lieu of

domiciliary beds. Those are beds that are just being made available

for veterans who have appointments and need to come from longer

distances. But there is always an effort to assess the medical stability of those veterans before they are placed in a lodger bed.

Secretary PRINCIPI. But the domiciliaries—to directly answer

your question—there should be no change—and I am not aware of

any change—in the organizational structure that has transitioned

domiciliary beds from supervised beds to non-supervised beds. If

there is such an example, then I would be more than happy to look

into that.

Mrs. DAVIS. Are the lodging beds replacing the domiciliary beds?

Perhaps that is really the issue here. And is it Portland, OR, perhaps?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Mrs. Davis, there is not anything that we are

aware or any organized effort to move out of domiciliary care into

lodger bed situations.

Mrs. DAVIS. Okay, thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Evans.

Mr. EVANS. Mr. Secretary, has the VA, at this point, requested

supplemental funding for Public Law 107–95?

Secretary PRINCIPI. No. No, the only supplemental I have submitted, Mr. Evans, is the $142 million that we received last month.

Mr. EVANS. Okay. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Evans. Mr. Boozman.

Mr. BOOZMAN. First of all, I would like to thank the Secretary

for helping us with our long-term care facility in Arkansas. The

veterans appreciate your help.

One of the things—my background is health care—and one of the

things I am seeing in Arkansas, and I am sure it’s true in the rest
16

of the States, is psychiatric care is really in crisis. Many of our hospitals, most have discontinued beds for this.

Our county sheriff—one of our county sheriffs—was telling me

the other day, he has got several—they are really not prisoners,

but he is housing several people in the county jail that really are

psychiatric problems of nature.

I guess my question is that as this is happening, you know, it’s

got to have an impact on the VA system in the sense that a lot of

these people are vets. And are we kind of looking forward to the

future, and anticipating what we need to do as we see less and less

help from, I guess you would call it, the private sector?

Secretary PRINCIPI. I agree with you, sir. We have seen a decrease in mental health benefits across the country, and even in

VA. There has been a reduction of mental health beds, and I have

tried to monitor that carefully to ensure that we have the non-institutional programs to substitute for the institutional beds.

Certainly historically, we have warehoused patients in institutional settings. Today, thanks to atypical anti-psychotics and other

medications, veterans with psychiatric disorders and mental health

concerns, can, in fact, live in the community if they are supported

with non-institutional care programs and atypical anti-psychotics.

These drugs are very, very expensive, as we know, and are a new

generation of drugs. I think the atypical anti-psychotics are probably the most highest-cost category of drugs in VA.

So, I am somewhat concerned that we maintain an adequate

number of mental health beds for those who need to be inpatient.

There is a percentage that need to be inpatient, that need to be detoxed before they go into a non-institutional care setting. But I am

equally concerned, if not more concerned, about reports that I am

beginning to receive that we don’t have adequate non-institutional

care programs in place. That’s a recipe for disaster, in my view.

As you know, we have seen some suicides recently, and not just

VA, but the private sector, as well, and veterans with mental

health problems. So, it’s of concern to me.

Mr. BOOZMAN. I appreciate it. Again, I am like you. The longterm—a lot of these people just need to be stabilized, you know,

short-term, and like you said, through getting them back on their

medicines, and things like that.

But again, in the—I guess you would call it the private sector,

that’s really disappearing. And so that might be something that we

need to look into, and really kind of plan ahead as to how it’s going

to impact us in the future. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Boozman. Mrs. Davis?

[No response.]

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Filner?

Mr. FILNER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, I did tell

you I was going to ask you whether you were going to seek full

funding for Public Laws 107–95 in the fiscal year 2004 budget. Is

your request going to ask for specific funds for fully implementing

that legislation?

Secretary PRINCIPI. For the 2004 budget? I have requested a

very, very significant increase in my budget for 2004. And that certainly incorporates resources to implement this legislation, this

new law.
17

So, yes, the increase is quite substantial. I don’t know where this

is going to come out. I don’t even know, under the current open enrollment system that we have today—because the projections continually exceed our workload—whether it would be enough. But

yes, I have requested money.

Mr. FILNER. The Chairman did point out that we share responsibility for this. I mean, you need to request, and then we, of

course, vote the funds. I will tell you that over the last few years

that I have been involved in these issues, on the floor of the House,

I have sought full funding of several of these in separate motions.

Within the context of the rules of the House, at least as they applied, I am always ruled out of order—you know I’m always out of

order. And I have moved, on the basis of either saying this was an

emergency, or some other means to overturn the ruling of the

House, and on those votes, I do not get a majority.

I hear lip service all over the country on Memorial Day, Veterans

Day, everybody is for full funding. And then when we give them

a chance to vote for it, they don’t come through. And the public has

to understand more about those kinds of votes.

So, it’s not just you that we are frustrated with. We have the ultimate purse strings. Nobody is evil here, there is just a different

set of priorities that come out.

But I really get annoyed at the folks who do say they’re for full

funding, they’re for full funding, and then on the votes, they do not

vote that way.

Let me ask you a more specific question. We got some letters

from employees of the Department, and you mentioned it in your

written testimony, but you didn’t say anything in the oral testimony about the health care for homeless vets program, the HCHV.

There is a plan, as I understand it, to eliminate the residential

treatment program, and to transfer the funds to the grant and per

diem program. At least that’s what employees tell me.

And in the annual report of the health care for homeless vets

program, they describe there how important these programs are,

what the different problems that the veterans placed have, serious

psychiatric and substance abuse problems, and there are indicators

that the outcomes in that setting is very good.

So, why would you take people out of that very effective setting,

and put them in a less effective setting, is what I am asking.

Secretary PRINCIPI. Let me get Gay, from a clinical perspective,

to answer that for you.

Mr. FILNER. First, is my assumption true, then, why would you

do it?

Ms. KOERBER. Yes, sir. We are planning to shift——

Mr. FILNER. I mean, we are going to get some testimony from

other panels after this on that.

Ms. KOERBER. Right. Our plan is to shift funds that have been

centrally directed to contract residential treatment for homeless

veterans, shift those over to enhance the homeless providers grant

and per diem program.

The rationale for doing that was very much based on outcomes,

looking at outcomes for both sets of programs. When we looked at

the veterans who have been placed in contract residential care and

the residents who have been placed in grant and per diem pro-
18

grams, they are virtually identical in terms of their demographics.

They are very similar in terms of their clinical needs and their age

and all the things that you look at.

When you look at outcomes for veterans coming out of those two

different types of programs, the outcomes are very similar for those

veterans who have successfully completed a grant and per diem

program and those who have successfully completed a contract residential treatment program. For the HCHV program it’s about a 96

percent housed at discharge rate. And, for those veterans who have

come out of a grant and per diem program, about 91 percent of

those veterans are successfully housed at discharge. For employment, again, the outcomes are very similar between the two different types of programs.

With that in mind, we also looked at the cost of placing veterans

in a contract residential treatment program versus grant and per

diem. On average, the cost per day in a contract program is $39

a day. In the grant and per diem program, it’s, right now, $19 a day with an expectation that it will go up to about $26.95 next

year.

So, it was more cost-effective—it is more cost-effective—to shift

those dollars into enhancing the grant and per diem program.

Mr. FILNER. Well, I didn’t understand a word you said, but—— Secretary PRINCIPI. Basically, the outcome is the same, but one

is substantially less in cost, so that we can care for a lot more

veterans.

Mr. FILNER. As I hear reports from the field, and in your own

15th Annual Report of Health Care for Homeless Vet Programs, I

read that one program has veterans with much more serious problems. And if they are having success in that one, for that group,

you’re comparing apples and oranges.

You may have the same success rate for those people, but if you

have the same success for one program that deals with less significant issues and one program has more, and they have the same

success rate, that doesn’t mean that everybody should be transferred into this one. I mean, it doesn’t follow. You’re dealing with

different types of illness.

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Mr. Filner, the contract residential care program began in the late 1980s. That was VA’s only activity, the only

thing we could do to provide assistance to veterans who were

homeless.

When the grant and per diem program came in, and we started

having some experience with that program, what we found out is

basically the same veterans were coming in two different doors.

The outcomes of how they were coming out, they were coming out

pretty much equal at that end, as well. And as the Secretary indicated, the cost between them—that’s what our program monitoring

and evaluation data is telling us—— Mr. FILNER. I’ve just got your own report, and I’ve talked to people in the program. They just tell me——

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Quite frankly, it’s more difficult for the VA because under contract care a VA employee who works with that program, direct which veteran is going to go into that program. Under

the grant and per diem program, the program provider obviously

does that.
19

You know, they work very closely in both cases, but if I am contracting, as we do under contract care, and I am the VA clinician

in that situation, I am telling you that we are going to contract for

this veteran to come into this program.

So, in fact, for these purposes, it’s actually easier for VA to keep

contract care than it would have been to work with community providers under grant and per diem. It clearly is an issue, and we understand—— Mr. FILNER. I would take another look at that decision.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rodriguez.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Once again, Mr. Secretary, thank you very

much, and since there was a little talk in reference to next year’s

budget, I would ask that you take a look at that other piece of legislation that we passed regarding first-time responders. This legislation was addressed by both the chairman and Ranking Member

Lane Evans, and needs funding, so we may identify four or five

hospitals throughout the country, and preparing them as first-time

responders. I think the administration has left a little less than $6 billion for

homeland defense. I would hope that you would look at that—and

that’s available right now—we might zero in on some of that, and

see how we might be able to access it. I would ask the chairman,

too, maybe we all need to help out. As first-time responders, we

could get some of those resources that the administration already

has, we can leverage those resources for the next time around.

I know that the inter-agency council on homelessness, could you

talk just briefly on—I know there was some talk about a $35 million initiative, do you know how that is going to be spent?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. Mr. Rodriguez, the Departments of Veterans’ Affairs, Housing and Urban Development, and Health and

Human Services, we have been meeting and trying to work out a

process that would make that process as simple as possible.

I think, from VA’s standpoint, we thought that this was a good

activity to get into because many veteran-specific service providers

have raised concerns that they have not been as successful with

getting funding from HUD nor HHS. And the idea, the concept of

putting an application process together that veterans would be a

key component into, we think would not only help VA with the veterans getting funds from VA, but also would help pick up funds

from others.

And as Secretary Principi mentioned earlier, the truth of the

matter is that VA obviously is not the sole source, and probably

can’t be the sole source for programs that are providing services.

And you know, the Department of Health and Human Services has

hundreds of billions of dollars of funds that go out to a variety of

sources to assist people who are low-income, have health care

needs, and others.

So we haven’t completed that process by any means, but we are

actually meeting weekly. I was at a meeting with counterparts at

HUD and HHS just before I came to this hearing.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Well, thank you very much for what you’re

doing, thank you very much for being out there for us. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me just ask this, and I’m going to yield to

Mrs. Davis in one moment. The section 8 housing vouchers, as you
20

know, the legislation in section 12 provides for 500 vouchers for

rental assistance in 2003, 500 more in the next year, 500 more— for a total of 2,000, which really is a small and modest

commitment.

Secretary Martinez, in a phone conversation I had as we were

drafting this, seemed very amenable to it and very positive about

that. Our hope is that there will be no glitch whatsoever in making

sure those 500 are fully filled with eligible veterans. But my hope,

as well, is that we will use this as a starting point to expand that.

There are about 1 million vouchers under section 8. It seems to

me, if there is a priority, it ought to be our veterans. So, perhaps

you might respond to that.

Secretary PRINCIPI. Well, Mr. Chairman, I think the only problem I see is that the Senate has earmarked those vouchers, and

none of those vouchers are for VA. So, this is an issue for Congress

to deal with, and hopefully the House will be able to do something

in conference, but that’s my understanding, that all are earmarked,

and VA is not going to get any of those vouchers.

The CHAIRMAN. In fiscal year 2003?

Secretary PRINCIPI. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. We have earmarked 500 vouchers with this legislation. You’re saying that the appropriators have eaten up every

one of those section 8 housing vouchers?

Secretary PRINCIPI. Yes, yes, that’s my understanding.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I can assure you, that I will fight hard— and I ask my colleagues to join me—and I hope you would, too, as

well. That is outrageous. Mrs. Davis.

Mrs. DAVIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to follow up

and thank Mr. Boozman for mentioning mental health care because

I think that is absolutely critical. I mean, we have it from the

statistics.

But I wanted to get back, just very briefly, to my opening remarks, I mentioned mentoring programs. And what I would love to

explore with you is whether we have done them with the kind of

depth and the training of people who choose to be mentors.

We know we have a number of veterans-helping-veterans programs. Obviously, Stand Down is a good example of that, but that’s

very limited, in terms of the continuity with someone who really

needs that kind of support over the long haul.

And I don’t know whether we have really tapped that resource

the way we could. We have wonderful vets groups out there, but

we haven’t really gone to people and said to them, ‘‘We need you

to follow somebody for a year,’’ or whatever it may be.

Everyone is not amenable to that, I understand. But we know,

if we look at mentoring programs for students and for young people, what makes a difference is that somebody is there who cares,

who doesn’t let them out of their sight, basically, until they are

able to get their feet on the ground.

And I think we need that within the veterans community. And

I know we have people who would come forward. We have many,

many groups that would play an active role in this. We really

haven’t asked them. But you can’t do it on the cheap. It’s not nearly as expensive as putting, you know, a social worker with every

vet, but on the other hand, you need to have proper training and
21

follow-up, so that people who take on that role don’t do it in

isolation.

And I am wondering, you know, are we—do we have good practices out there? Is that something that you think we ought to

explore?

Secretary PRINCIPI. I certainly think it is something we should

explore. I don’t know to what degree that we have.

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Mrs. Davis, there are a number of programs

that have done a very good job in doing that. Actually, just before

the hearing began, Ms. Fuller and I were having a conversation,

because one of the things VA does have authority to do is, under

VA work/study, for veterans who are coming out, for example, they

can go under VA work/study and work in homeless programs.

So, we are going to start working to see if we can do more to get

VA work/study veterans to come and work in homeless programs

because A. it’s good for them, and B. the other part that’s very good

is under the Corporation for National Service a veteran could also

get an education award from the Corporation for National Service,

which would give them more education for themselves, as well.

Mrs. DAVIS. I think that’s fine, but I think we also have people

in the community who have been successful, and who, you know,

for a host of reasons, have the time, the expertise, and perhaps,

you know, the care to be there on behalf of some of our vets, some

who are homeless, some perhaps who are not, but who need that

kind of ongoing support.

So, you know, I think I would love to explore that with you, and

see whether we can perhaps take it in another direction that just

hasn’t been explored fully. Thank you.

Ms. KOERBER. I was just going to say Robert Van Keuren, who

is going to be on the next panel, they are doing some very interesting things in terms of getting more volunteers involved.

So, I don’t know if Bob was going to talk about it, but he certainly can give you some information about a very innovative and

exciting project they are working on up there.

Mrs. DAVIS. All right, thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me conclude. Again, Mr. Secretary, thank

you and your staff for the fine work you are doing.

But I do want to, again, say how disappointed I am on this new

information about the HUD set-aside. When we wrote this language, we said the Secretary shall set aside, from amounts made

available under this subsection, and then we went through the

numbers—for fiscal year 2003, the amount necessary to provide

500 vouchers for rental assistance under this subsection.

If the appropriators and/or HUD and Secretary Martinez is

breaking this language, and making sure that this does not happen, I can assure you that I will do everything, when that bill

comes up, to complicate its passage, and if we cannot win this, to

throw every barrier in front of it.

We settled on 500 as a bare minimum. I and Lane and the rest

of this committee wanted much more by way of section 8 vouchers—500 was a starting point. And if that’s not even in the ball

game here, I mean, we’re just spinning our wheels, and the veterans will be out on the streets 10 years from now in larger numbers

if this is not part of the process. If that is a lack of priority on the
22

part of Secretary Martinez and our appropriators, we have got a

real problem.

Secretary PRINCIPI. I certainly don’t think it’s on the part of Secretary Martinez. I know him too well—— The CHAIRMAN. Then I would say, Mr. Secretary, he has got to

convey to these appropriators who didn’t like this when we did this

in the first place. They call themselves cardinals, but we have

equal weight when it comes to making policy, and especially when

it comes to the policy itself. They are the money side, we are the

authorizers. We authorized these because it’s necessary.

The previous allotments had all been used up. You almost have

to die and move on to the other land in order to get into one of

those currently available—we said we need more. Again, 2,000 over

4 years was the bare minimum. I am disappointed to get that news

today, and I assure you, we will fight it.

Secretary PRINCIPI. I apologize, Mr. Chairman. I hope my information is correct, but that’s what I understand, that’s a Senate

action.

The CHAIRMAN. I appreciate it. I would like to invite our distinguished second panel, which would be led by the Honorable Raymond Boland, a great friend of the committee, who serves as secretary of the Wisconsin Department of Veterans Affairs, Mr. Allan

Kingston, president and CEO of Century Housing Corporation, of

Los Angeles, CA, and is also well-known for his good work by this

committee.

Welcome. Please take your seats, and please present your testimony at this point.

STATEMENT OF RAYMOND BOLAND, SECRETARY, WISCONSIN

DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS; G. ALLAN KINGSTON,

PRESIDENT/CEO, CENTURY HOUSING CORPORATION, LOS

ANGELES, CA

STATEMENT OF RAYMOND BOLAND

Mr. BOLAND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the

committee. I appreciate this opportunity to come before the committee once again, and to present the perspective of State government to the very important issue of homeless veterans.

And I will share a little bit of my personal experience in a couple

of the areas that have already been talked about here today. As

you know, I also serve currently as president of the National Association of State Directors of Veterans’ Affairs, and I’m a past vice

president of the National Coalition of Homeless Veterans. So I have

been involved in all of this in many different ways.

I would like to comment to Representative Evans that I believe

the President made an excellent Cabinet choice for Health and

Human Services as well, sir, and I have great respect for Secretary

Principi, as you do, also.

I was also pleased that I was appointed to the newly established

advisory committee by Secretary Principi, and I look forward to

working with the other members of that committee to continue to

bring our best advice to the Secretary for the future.

I agree that we have made great progress with the issue of veterans homelessness in America. And if you look back not too many
23

years, this was an issue that was not understood at all by the general public until the efforts of people like Robert Van Keuren and

the other founders of the National Coalition established a public

consciousness and awareness of what the issue was about.

And more recently, through the combined efforts of so many people in this room and this committee, we have seen the evolution

of policies and legislation that have given us more tools to work

with, particularly—and most recently—the Comprehensive Veterans Homeless Act of 2001.

I think today we have got great examples from coast to coast of

success stories of programs that have proven we can end homelessness among veterans, so I believe the time has come to build upon

the successes that we have out here, and reach for a new level of

capability.

And to do this, I am convinced that we absolutely must have

large increases in housing capacity—that’s what the Veterans

Transitional Housing Opportunity Act was about, really a vehicle

that could jump-start the expansion of the housing supply that is

needed, and as has been discussed, unfortunately has not been implemented yet.

I want to tell you about a personal example in Wisconsin of—and

try to talk to the value and importance of this concept of assisting

and lending in order to build low-income housing capacity, affordable housing for our homeless veterans.

In Wisconsin, we did something very similar to what this legislation intends, and that was to use State funds to secure a loan made

by a bank to a community-based not-for-profit organization for the

purchase of property for a veterans transitional housing facility.

There was a community provider in Milwaukee, our largest city.

They had the opportunity to buy a vacant hospital building, which

was ideally suited to become a 100-bed transitional housing facility.

It is located one mile from a VA medical center. It was a great opportunity for us, and we agreed with the county and the organization that we, at the State, would also help in putting together a

down payment plan to get this loan to purchase the property.

But the difficulty is the uncommon nature of a lending deal of

this kind for virtually any lender in the country. Putting together

a business plan to make a deal like this, that is based upon cash

flows that are going to depend, on part, on people who aren’t even

employed yet, is something that just does not fit the models of the

lending industry, and greatly inhibit our ability to finance the facilities we need.

So, using State veterans funds, which also happen to be in an invested account, we furnished the additional amount required to

guarantee this particular loan. That was 8 years ago. Since then,

this facility has served more than 2,500 veterans, and the non-profit provider has received enough revenue and other grant monies to

actually liquidate the mortgage balance.

Now none of that would have been possible if government had

not helped finance this deal. And I believe that, in most cases, it’s

not going to happen elsewhere without this kind of help, and that’s

why this VA loan guarantee program is so vitally important.

I do not know of another new way that the VA can have more

impact on this issue than with this particular mechanism. And I
24

believe that the concept reflects the kind of creativity we need to

move to the next level, it incorporates the diverse strengths of government, non-profit organizations, and the private sector. It furthers an urgent social agenda with no additional cost to the tax

payer. Its initiative makes sound economic and business sense. It

addresses a critical component of what we need to solve veterans

homelessness, and that is housing affordability.

The program we have in Wisconsin, like others around the Nation, provides supportive services to veterans to help them end

their homelessness. We currently have four separate transitional

housing centers in Wisconsin, totaling 240 beds.

And it wasn’t many years ago that people were telling me, ‘‘Well,

you can’t have many homeless veterans in Wisconsin.’’ We know

that they are everywhere. Three of our four sites are located in

rural areas in the State of Wisconsin.

Those who require treatment receive that from the VA medical

system. We are in full partnership with them in this program. And

I would like to make the point today that the program in Wisconsin

that wouldn’t have succeeded without the building wouldn’t succeed without the VA partnership, either, because of the critical

services they provide as a full-time partner.

The collaboration between the VA, State government, and community organizations in the private sector is exactly what we need

to end homelessness. It’s a model that has proven itself, but it urgently needs to be expanded. That’s where we need the help of this

program that Secretary Principi has told us today will move

forward.

This legislation gave the VA the opportunity to expand its key

role within this collaboration in a new way. With this authority to

provide financial guarantees necessary to assure the lending sector,

the legislation enables us to demonstrate and develop a prototype

for the full national effort that we require.

When we made the deal 8 years ago, the lender told me that

their confidence in making a deal for a plan that’s outside the box

would greatly depend upon the confidence that we, in government,

showed in the program, as well. And that’s the difference, I think,

that we’re talking about here, that can really move us forward with

the lending industry all over the country.

We don’t need to leave homeless veterans missing in action in

the battlefields of society any more. We know how to do this, and

we know how to bring them back into the fold. And we certainly

need to use the resources and the authority that we have been

given by the Congress to do the job.

Once again, I appreciate the opportunity to be here, Mr. Chairman, and would be happy to answer any questions you might have.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Boland appears on p. 68.]

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you so much, Mr. Boland. Mr. Kingston.

STATEMENT OF G. ALLAN KINGSTON

Mr. KINGSTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the

committee, for giving me this opportunity to speak to you about the

Department of Veterans Affairs and how it can help to create more

transitional housing for homeless veterans, and specifically about

the loan guarantee pilot program.
25

In the past 20 years, my organization, Century Housing, has invested more than $500 million in financing the development of affordable housing for more than 15,000 low-income families and individuals, housing that is always linked to much-needed supportive

services such as after-school tutoring and job training.

Among our proudest accomplishments, Century has invested

more than $17 million to finance the Nation’s two largest transitional housing facilities for homeless veterans: Westside Residence

Hall, and Villages of Cabrillo, together serving 800 veterans.

Together, they have served more, in total, than 6,000 veterans,

and have probably saved the VA tens of millions of dollars in

health and medical costs.

As a non-profit organization, Century was able to fund these two

projects because our social purpose allows us to accept the risk of

loss, which is offset by the social return of serving homeless

veterans.

In contrast, a private sector lender would not make these highrisk loans without a guaranteed financial return, mostly because of

the uncertainty that the tenant’s rent payments would provide

enough income to service the debt.

On the other hand, it has always been our belief that a government guarantee would allow private sector lenders to finance this

type of development, the kinds of development that Secretary Boland was speaking of, as demonstrated also by HUD’s FHA mortgage insurance programs. That is the underlying concept of the VA

loan guarantee, or multi-family transitional housing.

I am unaware of any such transitional housing facilities of any

significant size in the United States for homeless veterans that

have been funded by other than public or philanthropic sources.

The real estate lending industry does not provide funding for this

type of development, because the risks associated with transitional

housing exceed the economic yield that such developments are able

to provide.

A few years ago, when Century arrived in Washington with a

group of experts including Secretary Boland to assist us, it was

with high hopes we, perhaps naively, believed that the VA loan

guarantee pilot program could be implemented in a relatively short

period of time, say, in a year or so, and that working together with

the VA, that, as one of the world’s larger bureaucracies, we all

would be able to celebrate the completion of four or five multi-family housing developments throughout the Nation within a few

years.

Instead, implementation of a loan guarantee pilot program has

moved at what one can only be characterized as a glacial pace, primarily due to a lack of understanding and enthusiasm by the Department. I have cited several examples in my written testimony

of that.

As a veteran, I personally find it disheartening that 4 years have

passed, but VA does not have even a pilot program that could provide a solution to the tragic problem that more than one-quarterof-a-million veterans who gave of themselves in the service of our

Nation sleep on the streets every night. These 4 years should have

been used to finance and develop transitional housing that has
26

been proven to help individuals break the cycle of homelessness

and re-enter the mainstream of society.

Despite these past difficulties and challenges, I am heartened to

hear that Secretary Principi may now move the pilot program forward as a priority objective of the Department in order to meet the

goal of financing development of transitional housing for up to

5,000 homeless veterans.

The time, effort, and money which all of us have expended over

these past several years will have been well spent if more homeless

veterans are given a chance at a new and better life.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Kingston, with attachment, appears on p. 71.]

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you for your fine statement, but more importantly, for the great work you and Mr. Boland do on behalf of

homeless veterans.

Mr. KINGSTON. Thank you, thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. You are an inspiration to me and the committee.

You give us guidance, and we will do everything we can to continue. Thank you, for your lead.

I think you would agree that it was good news to hear the Secretary, as you indicated—it should have been done much sooner,

without the imprimatur of Uncle Sam on there. You’re right, the

risk seems to outweigh it, and the private lenders are not likely to

get involved.

In the Secretary’s statement, he indicated October, which seems

to be a rather lengthy delay. But today, in his oral part, he did say

he would move aggressively. I would hope that since some of his

very distinguished staff is still here—the sooner the better. This

obviously takes a while, even once the agreements are made to actually construct or rehabilitate units for this.

So, we have got to do this sooner, rather than later. We will keep

our efforts moving in that direction, as well.

Mr. KINGSTON. Well, Mr. Chairman, I’m sure I would be speaking to the choir if I said that the—you know, the quote that ‘‘the

wheels of government move exceedingly slow,’’ but it is our experience, as someone from the other side of the continent who has come

over here—that, in fact, the wheels hardly move at all. So we

would like to help out, in any way we could, to push it along.

Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you so much. Mr. Evans.

Mr. EVANS. Mr. Kingston, one of the biggest questions for us is

problems your programs have encountered in undertaking VA’s

work, and how they might be better addressed in establishing the

VA transitional housing loan. Would you care to comment about

our concern?

Mr. KINGSTON. Well, Mr. Evans, I think that the issue of trying

to move a program like that along depends, to a great extent, on

whether or not within the Department—and particularly as large

a bureaucracy as the VA is—there is an internal champion that

champions the particular program, or the specific program that one

is dealing with.

And it is also absolutely important that somebody who understands the basic type of activity that is being carried on be a part

of that program. So if you’re going to do a real estate lending pro-
27

gram, then somebody with real estate lending background, housing,

finance background should be involved in that program. And that’s

absolutely imperative.

There are plenty of examples in the Federal Government already,

of guarantees. As the chairman pointed out earlier, the VA itself

has a substantial guarantee program. It is not a multi-family program, that’s true. But there are certainly ways in which one can

ask experts to deal with those kind of issues.

I think those are the main conclusions that I would draw about

our experience. You know, also, no good deed goes unpunished, nor

does exuberance. So I think perhaps we had an excess of that, in

thinking we could help move it along.

Mr. EVANS. Secretary Boland, how can we encourage other States

to work with the VA in helping homeless veterans like you have

in Wisconsin?

Mr. BOLAND. Well, there are many other States that are doing

that, Mr. Evans, and a lot of that has come through additional

States which have joined in the National Coalition organization,

and have learned, through sharing experiences of others, how to do

that.

I have, personally, working with a number of my colleagues right

now in States throughout the Nation, helped them get programs

going similar to what we did. And I am happy to say that there

are a number of places where that is happening.

Mr. EVANS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Boozman? Thank you very much, Mr. Evans.

Mr. BOOZMAN. I don’t have any questions. I do want to thank you

all for all the hard work that you are doing. And it sounds like the

programs that you’re involved in and the strategies are great. So,

thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Davis.

Mrs. DAVIS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Now, I am delighted to hear Secretary Principi make the comment about moving

that out of the VA, because I have recently learned—and I appreciate the time that we have spent together trying to understand—

I mean, we have all the tools to do it right, and it’s so frustrating.

And I think if you could just think about all the thousands of

people who haven’t been served because we have not had the will

to do it, and I hope that moves forward with great speed, and I appreciate the work that you have done.

I just wondered if you would comment, Mr. Boland, just quickly.

I mean, are there one or two ingredients? It’s probably advocacy,

the champion, the willingness of somebody to get in there and

make sure that those relationships work well, that it’s been

successful.

But is there a key, is there something that perhaps you think

other folks are missing in trying to bring that kind of partnership

together?

Mr. BOLAND. Well, I have been asked that question. I have participated in development sessions in States all over the country

looking at how to get this thing going.

I have a chart in a presentation that I give that says that somebody has to take charge of the issue within a certain geographic
28

area. Someone has to do that. We concluded that State government

was in a particularly good position to do that within our State.

But without leadership, there are all these pieces and resources

and components, but it takes an organization—whether it’s profit,

non-profit, or an element of government—to pull all that together.

And that’s what I have tried to do. I don’t consider myself to be

running the homeless program in Wisconsin. What I have tried to

do is enable and facilitate others to pull their pieces together and

get the job done.

Mrs. DAVIS. And Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your enthusiasm as

well, and I think that we really have to have some goals, and stick

to them, and if they are not met, we have got to figure out why.

Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mrs. Davis. Mr. Filner.

Mr. FILNER. Let me just add my thanks for the passion that you

bring, and the common sense.

I guess, Mr. Kingston, aside from the slowness of the thing, are

the tools there to do the job, or is there something else that has

to be added? If they got moving, could they do what you need to

do?

Mr. KINGSTON. Mr. Filner, I think that the Department—you

know, it’s always risky to try to criticize the efforts of people who

are well-meaning and who intend to do the right thing. But I think

the Department now has realized that they need somebody with

the financial background, with the housing finance background

that is necessary to move this program further.

And I think with the commitment that I heard from Secretary

Principi today to assertively and aggressively move it forward,

there is a good chance that they could succeed in rolling out four

or five of these projects in the very near future. I think they have

now got, perhaps, the experience that they did not have before.

Mr. FILNER. That’s good to hear, and I hope you will keep us informed, and that you can add your own experience with doing so

much with this kind of population. As Mrs. Davis says, it is frustrating, that so many people could have been served, that we

haven’t served, because you have shown how you can do it. So,

keep us in touch from your end as we move forward. Thank you.

Mr. KINGSTON. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Filner, and again, I

want to thank our two very distinguished panelists.

Again, I mentioned that Mr. Ryan and I visited Veterans Haven.

While we were there, we discovered that—and this is both under

Democrat and Republican administrations—across from Veterans

Haven is a very usable and unoccupied building that could house

upwards of 55 units.

And yet, since 1995, the director has been trying to get the State

to permit the utilization of that for transitional housing, and has

gotten the big stop sign put in his face. We are going to try to move

it again, as a result of our having been there, but it seems to be

a problem, both on the State and Federal levels.

I agree with you about the statement by the Secretary. I was

very encouraged by his commitment to aggressively move on this,

and he is a man of his word, so I think you are right.
29

Mr. BOLAND. Sir, if I could just comment. Of the four sites that

I mentioned in my remarks earlier, in addition to the hospital site,

two of our sits are in vacant State building space, and one of them

is in what was vacant VA hospital space.

So, we have explored all of the possibilities to use existing space

without additional cost, and there are plenty of opportunities to do

that.

Mr. EVANS. I just hope that you got to see the Rock and Roll Hall

of Fame in Cleveland. It wouldn’t be a trip to Cleveland without

it.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you again, gentlemen, for your testimony,

and again, for your extraordinary good work.

I would like to invite our third panel to make their way to the

witness table. Before I go any further, I want to apologize for the

crowdedness of our situation here. As I think most of you know, or

all of you know, the full Veterans’ Affairs Committee is being renovated, which obviously prevents its use. So, we are here in this

tight, small subcommittee meeting room.

Our third panel consists of Mr. Robert Van Keuren, the Chairman of the VA Advisory Committee on Homeless Veterans, Ms.

Linda Boone, Executive Director of the National Coalition for

Homeless Veterans, Mr. Richard Schneider, Director of the State

veterans affairs Non Commissioned Officers Association, and Mr.

Philip Mangano, the Executive Director of the Interagency Council

on Homelessness.

Mr. Van Keuren, if you could begin?

STATEMENT OF ROBERT VAN KEUREN, CHAIRMAN, ADVISORY

COMMITTEE ON HOMELESS VETERANS; LINDA BOONE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL COALITION FOR HOMELESS

VETERANS; RICHARD C. SCHNEIDER, DIRECTOR, STATE/VETERANS’ AFFAIRS, NON COMMISSIONED OFFICERS ASSOCIATION; EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, INTERAGENCY COUNCIL ON

HOMELESSNESS

STATEMENT OF ROBERT VAN KEUREN

Mr. VAN KEUREN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Mr.

Evans. It is indeed a pleasure to be before you today. It is my

privilege to be here to talk to you, actually, as the chair of this

committee.

By way of further introduction, first I would like to thank Congressman Filner for his gracious remarks. And while it’s not part

of my remarks, on the record I would like to apprise you that many

years ago when now-Congressman Filner was running—I forget

whether it was for a school district or whether it was for city council—came by a program I was running in San Diego.

And not knowing what the program was, he was very interested,

and asked several questions, and when he found out it was for

homeless veterans, he said, ‘‘How could I help out?’’ And all the

troops in the house wanted was socks. And Congressman Filner

came back with what I think about three dozen pair of white socks.

And I don’t know how you did in the precinct, Bob, but you sure

carried the house. So, thank you very much.
30

Again, by way of further introduction, in addition to my duties

as chair of the advisory council, I am the homeless program coordinator for Network 2. I have previously been in the non-profit

arena, where I worked as either a board member or a chief executive officer for the Vietnam Veterans of San Diego.

I started my work with veterans, I believe it was, 1975 as a work

study for the VA. I was doing outreach to encourage veterans to

use the GI Bill. I am proud of the fact that I am a founding member of the National Coalition for Homeless Veterans. Some of those

founders are members of our advisory committee.

As you are aware, the Secretary has appointed 15 members

whose names I believe you have in front of you. I am honored, actually, that the Secretary has appointed me to chair this group.

A review of that list, obviously, many of you have had the pleasure of having some of these folks come before you. There is not a

shrinking violet in the group. All are extremely assertive, committed, and issues may be able to run but they will not be able to hide

from this group. And I can assure you that there was a great deal

of tenacity involved relative to drilling down into those issue areas.

The committee has been and will continue to be actively engaged.

We held our first meeting in June, and we expect our next meeting

will be actually on June 2nd—excuse me, our second meeting will

be later this month, in Cleveland, Ohio.

Since we began meeting, we have found, obviously, what you

have already known, which is the issues for homeless veterans are

very complex, broad, and diverse.

We have organized the committee into three working subgroups:

one dealing with health care; one dealing with housing and benefits; and one dealing with partnerships, particularly federal and national partnerships. The chairs of those committees are very committed to their work, and have been working through a series of

teleconferences, chatting among themselves, as well as asking expert witnesses from other areas, relative to their specific interest

areas, to come forward and talk.

The committee has been active in pursuing these issues, and will

be preparing a series of recommendations for the Secretary on

ways to improve services to homeless veterans.

Given your charge, the committee will look beyond what the VA’s

internal abilities and capabilities are, and will seek to determine

what other agencies at the national, State, and local level are providing programs that could assist homeless veterans, and we want

to enlist their efforts to further assist veterans who are homeless.

While we have made, obviously, no recommendations at this

point, we do look forward to making these recommendations to the

Secretary, as you have instructed us to do, by March of this year.

I have personally met with the Secretary, and I have been assured

that our recommendations will obtain his very serious review.

Mr. Chairman, in addition to telling you how pleased I am to

work with so many dedicated committee members and staff, not

only of the VA but from other federal and State agencies, several

of whom are seated here at this table with me, I can assure you

that our efforts will help to keep the focus on ending homelessness

among veterans.
31

Mr. Chairman, I thank you for inviting me to this hearing. I

would be more than happy to answer any questions. At this point,

as I have stated, we do not have any recommendations to come forward, although there have been certain issue areas.

In previous panels’ questioning, particularly with the Secretary,

there were a couple of other issue areas relative to some other topics. If at some point in the hearing you wish me to address those,

I would be more than happy to do so. Thank you, sir.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Van Keuren appears on p. 81.]

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Mr. Van Keuren, consider yourself

invited, as soon as you have those recommendations, because we

want to know what more we can do, and we look forward to hearing from you in another hearing.

Mr. VAN KEUREN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Boone.

STATEMENT OF LINDA BOONE

Ms. BOONE. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Evans, and committee members,

on behalf of the National Coalition for Homeless Veterans, I thank

you for the opportunity to present our views here today.

NCHV salutes your vision and leadership in enacting and monitoring the progress of legislation to support our Nation’s veterans.

For veteran advocates, it can be very frustrating to see legislation

enacted but never implemented. But with your oversight and leadership, we are confident many of these concerns will be addressed.

The National Coalition for Homeless Veterans was intimately involved with the development of the Veterans Transitional Housing

Opportunities Act. On Veterans Day, it will be 4 years since this

law was passed, but not yet implemented. And this Nation has

missed the opportunity to offer assistance to hundreds of homeless

veterans.

From NCHV’s perspective, the VA has continued to drag its feet

in the process to implement this law mandated by Congress. During NCHV’s annual conferences over the last 4 years, our members

have been inquisitive about the progress and availability of this approved loan guarantee, to which the VA consistently reports that

the process is being developed or is in review. It is our feeling that

the VA is trying to provide death-by-review for this law.

NCHV understands that it is a complicated process, and there is

supportive VA staff. But the VA hired experts to provide advice.

And still not to have an implementation plan after 4 years appears

morally wrong, and flaunts defiance of Congressional mandates.

While it has been 9 months since Public Law 107–95 was enacted, NCHV has not been advised of a development plan to implement the provisions of this law. The VA has expressed concern that

the law has an unfunded mandate, and they do not have the resources to implement its provisions.

In reviewing the history of the VA budget request compared to

appropriations since 1997, each year Congress has provided VHA

more funding than they requested. So, what is the real issue? Perhaps the internal priorities of VA need adjustment.

Since VHA resists having special purpose funding requirements

made on the department in order for them to have maximum flexibility to determine internal and local VISN priorities, even if funds
32

were appropriated by Congress specific for homeless programs, how

would the money be internally allocated?

Public Law 104–262, enacted in October 1996, required the VA

to maintain capacity to provide for the needs of disabled veterans,

including those with mental illness. However, the VA has not

maintained that capacity to serve these veterans, and Public Law

107–95 is even more specific. How will the VA respond?

In a recent Senate hearing, testimony was provided that stated

total per capita expenditures for veteran mental health patients

has declined by 20 percent since 1995. Between 1995 and 2001, the

number of veterans in need of mental health has increased 26 percent. Yet mental health expenditures have increased only by 9

percent.

What types of veterans should the VA be serving? In Public Law

104–262, it specified seven priority categories. At the time of this

law’s enactment, priority seven veterans made up three percent of

those who used the health care system. The VA’s budget submission for fiscal year 2003 discloses that priority seven veterans are

expected to make up 33 percent of VA enrollees.

The VA has allowed a redirection of funds to non-mental health

care in a clear violation of the capacity law. It is shocking to realize

that the VA has diminished its support to veterans who are the

most vulnerable and the most in need, and in doing so, have altered its mission to serve an ever-growing number of those with the

lowest claim to VA care.

Section 10 of Public Law 107–95 addresses the use of VA real

property by homeless veterans service providers. NCHV members

that have entered into enhanced sharing agreements for the use of

VA space to provide services to homeless veterans are reporting

that hospital directors are significantly increasing the reimbursement rates for the use of that space to charge local, fair-market

rates.

Homeless veteran providers are being required to decrease services in order to increase rent payments to the VA, or even close

down their programs. Often, the money that is used for rent has

been procured through a grant from another federal agency. How

much sense does this make, when we’re spending tax dollars?

Included in Public Law 107–95 was an appropriation authorization for the Homeless Veterans Reintegration Program, managed

through the Department of Labor vets, and is virtually the only

program that focuses on employment of veterans who are homeless.

DOL does not ask for the full appropriation for HVRP in the

budget they submit to OMB. The reason they have given us is that

they do not have the capacity to manage an increased grant activity. Leaving money on the table that could translate into decreasing the number of homeless veterans across our Nation is unconscionable, in NCHV’s viewpoint.

There are a myriad of solutions to the capacity issue for Department of Labor vets, and NCHV believes the Department lacks a

sense of leadership, understanding, and urgency for their role in

ending homelessness among veterans. NCHV would also ask members of this committee to appeal to their fellow representatives on

the House Appropriations Committee to appropriate the amount

you recommended for HVRP.
33

Mr. Chairman and committee members, thank you for this

opportunity.

[The prepared statement of Ms. Boone appears on p. 82.]

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, thank you very much. Earlier, Mr. Van

Keuren, you said something about no shrinking violets. And so far,

we haven’t seen any shrinking violets in this room.

Mr. VAN KEUREN. Yes, yes. If you can’t hear us, it’s not because

we’re not speaking up, I will tell you that.

The CHAIRMAN. It does take strong-willed people to push, and we

thank you, Ms. Boone, for that good testimony, and for the help

that you provided us in crafting this bill.

I remember a number of observations that you made at the hearing, and before our mark-up. Your comments were very, very helpful, and even your points on the technical grants. I remember you

said there needed to be assistance there, and with dental services,

etc. So again, I want to thank you for that.

I would like to ask our next panelist for his testimony.

STATEMENT OF RICHARD C. SCHNEIDER

Mr. SCHNEIDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Evans, members

of the committee. I’m not going to shrink, either. And I am going

to pick up right where you left off.

First of all, I am going to say I appreciate the leadership of VA,

and I appreciate the fact that they are going to move aggressively.

And I believe that they are going to move aggressively, because we

are going to remind them at every opportunity.

You know, there is something wrong in the system below the

leadership level. It’s not the leadership here, it’s the leadership

throughout the organization that puts a bureaucratic block, and decides how best to run the business.

And you know, the issue Linda identified one second ago was the

category sevens, and the amount of resources being consumed.

Well, that resource has now extended over to a new product line

within VA, which is mental health. And the mental health product

line is going into the primary clinics, it’s going into the CBOCs, it’s

serving America’s veterans, but where is the resource coming from?

It’s coming from health care for homeless veterans. We are literally moving resources and re-allocating hours to clinics and facilities so that we have ‘‘mental health facilities.’’ We need to get mental health back, and we need to get the bed spaces back.

Homelessness is all about not having a bed. Where do you have

to look to get that answer? It’s on the front-end, it’s to stabilize,

to de-tox, to get the mental health experts working, and then it’s

a continuation into the continuum of care.

And I am going to say right now, very pointedly, VA cannot do

it themselves, and you know that as well as I know that, and everybody sitting at this table. It’s the community partners working

with VA to provide the resources and the continuity of programming to take the veteran through the trauma of the streets,

through rehab, through stabilization, through re-integration into

the work program, into a job, and then into separate transitional

housing to go.

And we need that multi-housing project that’s on the books to be

part of it. We need those domiciliaries that are in 107–95. If we
34

don’t have them, we don’t have the bed space. You know, I could

have been sick before when Mrs. Davis commented on the beds

available, and she said, ‘‘Oh, we 107 beds, and we have 60 beds.’’ You know, I am pretty slow at mathematics, but somewhere,

that’s below 200. And the count for homeless veterans in America

is 265,000—I heard 285,000, I have heard 325,000. There seems to

be a disparity, if you start multiplying the States and one DOM

and one additional facility.

We can’t even touch it until we get the beds and until we get the

programs introduced that were in the Comprehensive Veterans Act

of 2001, we are not going to diminish chronic homelessness.

I just came back from San Francisco, and I am going to tell you

I never saw so many homeless veterans in my life. In fact, I saw

a homeless veteran with a sign that said, ‘‘Homeless Veteran, Has

Cancer.’’ And here, laying on the street near the riverfront, near

the wharf, was the sickest man I have seen in a long time outside

of a cancer ward in a medical facility. He was just laying there,

laying there waiting for a handout.

We need to be doing something, and it’s not authorizing the police to take them off the street and put them in jail. It’s to take

the people we said we had a commitment to because they stood for

America, and bring them home to their home.

We are going to do that when we start implementing this act. I

was absolutely elated when the Secretary said he was going to request full funding in 2004. I would like to see intrusions into the

program begin in 2003, because I think it needs to be.

You know, the Interagency Council—and I am sure you’re going

to hear about that in a second—I have one thought, and the one

thought was this. Three agencies got together, the big guys: the

VA, HUD, and Health and Human Service, put up $35 million that

was reported in the Washington Times—$350 million would have

been great, that was the right number—but the thing that both- ered me, when I started looking for the explanation of the $35 million, was $5 million came from VA, $10 million came from Health

and Human Service, and $20 came out of HUD. And it seems to

me that they ought to all put up $20 million and start on with the

program, and get it going.

But the thing that was good was that after a hiatus of 6 years,

they finally, the big guys, sat down at the table and worked. And

I’m not going to go further than that, because I know you are.

But I will say this. When we start working with homeless veterans, we need more than triage and telling somebody to come back

next week. We need to have a plan, we need to have a plan. When

we take a person into a mental health bed now, the program says

stabilize and release in 7 days.

Seven days? I want to make sure that that veteran coming out

of that mental health stabilized and released has a bed to go to,

or has a controlled environment within the community that somebody is facilitating as a case manager. We mustn’t forget that case

management means continuation of care beyond throwing somebody out of the hospital. Thank you, sir.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Schneider appears on p. 91.]

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Schneider. (Applause.)
35

Mr. Mangano.

STATEMENT OF PHILIP MANGANO

Mr. MANGANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and ranking member

Evans, and members of the committee. And though I have been a

federal employee now for a little over 20 weeks, I feel very comfortable being on this panel with this kind of fervency.

And I have good news to report to you, as has been previously

reported, the initiative and work which all of you invested in revitalizing the Interagency Council on Homelessness has had the desired performance outcome. After 6 years of dormancy, President

Bush appointed me as the fifth executive director of the council.

And on March 15 of this year, after 22 years of advocacy for homeless people in Massachusetts, I was sworn in by Secretary Mel

Martinez, who is the chairperson of the council.

The commitment of this committee, I believe, was instrumental

in revitalizing the council. Chairman Smith, I have been especially

encouraged and inspired by your unwavering commitment to all

veterans, and especially your continuing commitment to those veterans who have fallen into homelessness.

Your avowed commitment to ending chronic homeless among veterans in the next decade is a serious charge to the work of the

council, and is resonant with the President’s call to end chronic

homelessness in this country for all. And I know it is consistent

with your legacy of serving those who are most vulnerable in this

country.

And Ranking Member Evans, your lifelong commitment to veterans, and your sensitivity to their evolving needs has been widely

recognized. No doubt your support of the resources for homeless

veterans will continue that tradition of insight and response.

The administration’s revitalization of the Interagency Council on

Homelessness is consistent with this committee’s intuition and initiative regarding the re-activation of the council. Both see the council as a means to ensure further collaboration among federal departments and agencies.

And I am honored to report to you that section 11 of Public Law

107–95, which called for meetings of the council to be held minimally on an annual basis, has been implemented. On July 18 of

this year, the revitalized council held its inaugural meeting at the

White House. This meeting was the first meeting of the council in

more than 6 years, and the next meeting of the council is already

scheduled for December of this year.

In the meeting, one of the first activities of Chairman Martinez

was the introduction of Department of Veterans Affairs Secretary

Principi, who, in his opening remarks, confirmed his commitment

to ending chronic homelessness for veterans. Along with Secretary

Martinez and Secretary Thompson, he joined in the announcement

of a $35 million joint effort between HUD, HHS, and VA targeted

to those experiencing chronic homelessness.

This unique and innovative collaboration, as has been so noted,

on behalf of homeless people, is a significant step toward creating

a template for future joint collaboration and funding. The agencies

have engaged in preliminary discussions for this collaboration,

which would permit applicants to respond to one announcement of
36

funding from multiple federal agencies, and access a combined pool

of resources that cover the housing and supportive service needs of

chronically homeless people.

There were other initiatives announced at the historic council

meeting. There was a re-entry initiative announced by DOJ, which

involved 10 different agencies that will help assist incarcerated veterans to be re-integrated into the community.

The Department of Education announced an initiative concerning

a liaison for homeless children all across the country.

The Department of Labor announced new efforts, including the

incarcerated veterans transition demonstration and the job corpsfoster care initiative.

And the Department of Health and Human Services announced

new research on homelessness that will be coming from the National Institute of Health.

And in another collaborative effort between HUD, HHS, and the

VA, technical assistance for all States, in terms of making mainstream resources available was also announced.

In the council, we are developing a new federal strategy based

on the following policy objectives. Number one, first, preventing

homelessness.

This administration has prioritized prevention as a policy cornerstone in building the new federal strategy, prevention that focuses

on more appropriate outcomes for people leaving mainstream services, places of incarceration, and service to our country. We need

to focus on every level of government to promote more appropriate

discharge planning when people are leaving systems.

Second, eliminating chronic homelessness. The President called

for the ending of this disgrace in the next 10 years. And again, I

know that you, Mr. Chairman, and the committee have enlisted in

this initiative on behalf of veterans experiencing chronic homelessness.

While some believe that this initiative seems undoable, the new

research and new housing technologies tell us the opposite. It is doable, and it is doable in the next 10 years.

Third, collaborating in interagency, intra-agency, and intergovernmental approaches with the private sector and faith communities as partners. And Dick is completely right, that the access to

federal resources at the State and local level, that kind of coordination is essential in targeting homeless people in general, and homeless veterans, specifically.

Four, accessing the mainstream resources. The GAO report a few

years ago indicated that there were 14 targeted homeless programs

of the Federal Government valued at about $2.1 billion, and there

were mainstream resources available to homeless and poor people

of hundreds of billions of dollars. That’s why the case management

resources in your bill makes sense. Case management should open

the door to access.

Fifth, and finally, innovating new solutions based on performance outcomes. The President has called for the elimination of

chronic homelessness, its abolition. These are the appropriate outcomes that we are seeking for homelessness.

No veteran should be homeless, no American should be homeless.

And our efforts are not to manage the crisis, or maintenance the
37

effort, or to accommodate the wrongs. Our work is to bring this disgrace to an end. Thank you.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Mangano appears on p. 98.]

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Mangano, for your very eloquent

statement, and for the good work you are doing on behalf of the

homeless veterans.

I would like to ask you a couple of questions, and all of the panelists. Especially you, with the interagency organization, or advisory group, will you and can you encourage both the President, the

VA to fully fund the Homeless Assistance Act, and to really look

at it as a floor?

Even though we have numbers, a quarter of the legislation deals

with the labor part of it. Knowing that training and matriculation

from homelessness to a job is one of the basic tenants of ending

this scourge, if we don’t get the funding, and cooperation with the

interagency with the Labor Department on that one, we are, obviously, hampering our ability to end this terrible homelessness over

the next 10 years—and I would hope we could do it sooner than

that.

On the loan guarantee program, it would be helpful for the advisory committee and the interagency group to make sure that aggressive means aggressive, and that we get more, not less, in terms

of those loan guarantees.

I represent the City of Trenton. If it weren’t for loan guarantees,

so much of the housing stock that has been rehabilitated and the

senior citizen housing would have never happened, had there not

been that imprimatur placed on that loan that the Federal Government uniquely is qualified to provide.

As with our two previous witnesses—Mr. Boland pointed out so

well—it doesn’t happen unless the Federal Government gets involved. Then the leverage it provides is priceless, in terms of something that actually provides housing for our veterans.

Perhaps you might want to respond to that. When we wrote this

legislation, we kept thinking, ‘‘This is not a ceiling, this is a floor.

We want at least 500 section 8 housing units per year over the

next 4 years, 2,000 in total, as a floor, not a ceiling.’’

Then we got very disturbing news from Secretary Principi that

the appropriators aren’t giving one whit to that—at least on the

Senate side, if I understood his statement correctly.

Certainly Secretary Martinez and his staff, when they are working with the appropriators, as we will—Mr. Boozman had a good

idea that we write a letter immediately, in a bipartisan way, to

Secretary Martinez, as well as well as to our appropriations friends

to say, ‘‘This is a bare minimum. We want at least this, and we

want it now.’’ So, perhaps you want to respond to that.

Mr. MANGANO. Well, thank you so much. I can say in my previous life as a homeless advocate, how well received and how excited we were by the bill that this committee worked on and moved

through the Congress—it was a very important step—and that the

work of this committee has had a very far-ranging impact on homeless policy, in general. It’s not just the work that you’re doing for

veterans, it’s also those themes that this committee has sounded.

And all of those themes should sound very familiar, those very

themes that the council is working with: prevention, accessing
38

mainstream resources, collaboration, and innovation. Those are

themes that should resonate with every member of this committee,

because those are the themes that this committee has sounded.

So, we were very excited in the field, and I can assure you that

one of the things that you learn in the field is that resources are

directly correlated with the ending of homelessness. There is little

question about that.

The one thing I will say about the section 8 vouchers is that, as

you probably know, the President’s budget actually requested

34,000 incremental vouchers. And I believe that the Senate version

has many fewer vouchers than that.

So, perhaps that is also a point of advocacy, in terms of looking

for the President’s number so that, indeed, the number that you

put in is more of a floor than a ceiling, for sure.

Mr. VAN KEUREN. I can certainly state again that, although

there are no formal recommendations, obviously, to come forward

at this point, the housing sub-working group, there was quite a

scrap to see who was going to get on that because everyone had

a great deal of interest.

And those that are on it—Kathy Spearman, from Florida, who is

the chairperson, Ralph Cooper, Tom Gray, Sam Golburth, and Don

Murrough—are all very, very concerned, relative to the full implementation of the law, as well as the discussion that has gone on

concerning intergovernmental cooperation and leveraging of

resources.

So, again, it’s premature, obviously, to have recommendations,

but I certainly can, with full confidence, say that this issue is one

of the hot button issues that the group is looking at and will be

fully exploring.

Mr. SCHNEIDER. Rest assured, sir, that we are going to muster

all the resources we can in Washington to push for that as a baseline, and just the beginning.

But I think one of the issues that we would like to address as

a priority in that budget is to look at the $750,000 for technical

contract work, and to move it outside the agencies to a resource

that we believe can most effectively deal with the commitment to

work with community partners to get them ready for the budget cycles and for submitting grants, and doing the work that has to be

done.

And we would strongly advocate that that money, as a priority,

should be spent to begin that process for grants, and what have

you, and we are going to recommend that organization that we

think is truly the advocate of veteran homelessness, the National

Coalition for Homeless Veterans.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Let me just conclude before yielding

to Mr. Evans. Ms. Boone, you made a number of recommendations

that were adopted by us. We took your comments—I just looked at

the date, it was September 20, almost a year ago today.

You said you were disappointed there were no provisions for

technical assistance for homeless veterans. You took the lead on

that one, to make sure that this was in the final legislation, we

thank you.

I hope the advisory committee would include the NCHV in your

deliberations—we have found them to be very, very helpful and
39

very knowledgeable—as we go forward. I was a little disappointed

nobody was on the committee, or the group, from their organization.

Mr. VAN KEUREN. Mr. Chairman, as you mentioned, the National

Coalition for Homeless Veterans is a—as a founding member, I am

certainly aware of the importance of the organization, and of the

energy that they bring to the table.

I believe everyone on the—almost everyone—on the committee is

a member. And we will certainly strive very hard to assure that we

incorporate into our process all their concerns. Did I say that right,

Linda?

Ms. BOONE. Yes, you’re doing good. (Laughter.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Evans?

[No response.]

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Boozman?

[No response.]

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Filner?

Mr. FILNER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for the

passion which you bring to this issue. It is good to see, as I said

earlier, Mr. Van Keuren, and we miss you in San Diego.

Mr. VAN KEUREN. Thank you, Bob.

Mr. FILNER. I remember when you were out there begging for

blankets and socks, and trying to get some doctors to do something,

and politicians running away as fast as they could from you. And

now, it’s become institutionalized.

And now, as I said, now that’s it’s institutionalized, we know we

can do it. And we should be able to do it without the 3-day focus.

It’s almost as if we will do it then and don’t have to do it at any

other time. You have been too successful.

But I have a theory, watching you guys. They take passionate

people, they make them bureaucrats, and then they can’t do anything anymore. And I am only half facetious here in that, look, you

showed with the Stand Down that the community, man, it focuses

on those 3 days, and it comes together and actually does something.

And yet it seems—and I don’t want to contradict what the Secretary earlier said, that we are all doing some good things—but you

have got a $50 billion agency here, and they can’t seem to just get

the job done.

And the programs that we saw today that haven’t been implemented, you have already got, Mr. Mangano—I am looking at your

wording here—you talk about you’re an abolitionist from, you

know, Massachusetts, and then we have got you ‘‘facilitating,’’ and

‘‘collaborating,’’ and ‘‘managing,’’ and we’re not doing anything,

we’re just sitting around putting these labels out.

I don’t know what happens in a bureaucracy. I don’t doubt anybody’s good intentions. I think the people in the VA want to do

good, and they are working every day on behalf of the veterans.

But somehow, this bureaucratic framework prevents us from doing

what has to be done, it just looks to me.

We get letters from employees, that they are afraid to say what’s

going on, because they’re going to get fired. We get the tales of bureaucratic ineptitude. I can’t figure this out, why you can do this
40

on a shoe string, literally, and yet $50 billion can’t seem to do what

you did.

Mr. VAN KEUREN. Well, Mr. Filner, some of these questions are

above my pay grade to answer, to be honest with you.

Mr. FILNER. What’s going on here?

Mr. VAN KEUREN. But I can only tell you from, again, my own

personal perspective, of having worked in the non-profit arena, and

having—and now working in government, that the majority of the

time it becomes about passion and about belief systems, and about

a willingness to move beyond the regulation and into the reality of

the service delivery.

And I don’t have—you know, I don’t know if anybody here has

any magic dust to throw on this problem. I—my personal commitment to this, and the commitment of the people that I have seen

on this working group, this committee, is that we are not fooling

around here.

And we will tell the truth to whoever. We will tell the truth as

we find it to the Secretary and to this committee. And I don’t believe there will be any words minced about it. The ability of the bureaucracy to act upon that is beyond our control, Mr. Filner. But

the ability of us to try to impart movement within that bureaucracy is not. And that’s where I believe we will try to spend our

energy.

Again, Bob, I remember walking with you down here before you

were in Congress in the march for housing and all that stuff, and

we having these same conversations. There is so many dollars, and

so—and it’s frustrating.

Mr. FILNER. Right. I watch you work and put things together,

and it seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that, if you would accept my

motion to make him Czar of the —he will take all the pieces that

have to be done and get the job done, and you know, just do it.

Instead of all this facilitating, collaborating, I mean, it’s just

frustrating. We have all these good people around, we got all this

money, and yet we have the situation you so eloquently described,

Mr. Schneider, that we see every day around us. It’s not right. And

we can do something about it in America. We have got the

resources.

I thank you for your passion. I just hope you keep imparting it

to your colleagues. Somehow we have just got to get this passion,

and get the job done. I mean, this is manageable. Mr. Smith, you

know, brings passion, you all bring passion. We’ve just got to do

it, and we are looking forward to you guys continuing your efforts.

I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, it’s frustrating. I know you are frustrated, and I know Mr. Principi is frustrated. If you gave Van

Keuren, a few years ago, a billion dollars, he could have solved the

issue, I think, in America. And yet, it’s not being done. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. I do understand, because I feel it,

too. I think we have got very good people. Almost like a soccer

team. There is a team effort here with an enormous amount of good

will, and we are trying to provide the resources. There are some

of our own colleagues who don’t have a clue.

Because of the lack of visibility that previous advocates, like

Mitch Snyder brought to it, it seems like ‘‘been there, done that,’’ or we get compassion fatigue very quickly when it comes to these
41

very important issues. This is one issue that I believe Secretary

Principi has a real heart for, but he has an inner battle he has to

fight.

We are on, I hope, the verge of a break-out. The tools are there,

both with the law passed on the loan guarantees a few years ago,

where we have now a very real commitment from the Secretary,

plus our new law, the Veterans Homeless Assistance Act, good bipartisan support for it, and very, very good people who are going

to be making additional recommendations. We look forward to

those, and the key is in the implementation.

We look forward to working with all of you, and I want to thank

you so much for the great work you do. There are no shrinking violets at this table. No potted plants, either. Thank you so much.

Mr. VAN KEUREN. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to welcome our final and fourth

panel to the witness table, beginning with Mr. John Kuhn, the

chief of the New Jersey Homeless Services, Department of Veterans Affairs.

John has been of great impact, and has been very persuasive

with me, personally, I would say to my colleagues, on what needs

to be done. Like Ms. Boone, he was very helpful in crafting this legislation and putting me and members of the staff in very close contact with a number of homeless veterans, their success stories, and

what needed to be done.

We have got Mr. Carroll Thomas, the chief Executive Officer of

Middlesex County’s Economic Opportunities Corporation. Mr.

Thomas, welcome to the Committee. Mr. Scott Gaines, a veteran of

the U.S. Navy, Ms. Winter Otis, a veteran of the U.S. Army, and

Mr. Jerome McCoy, a veteran of the U.S. Marine Corps.

Please, Mr. Kuhn, if you could begin with your testimony.

STATEMENT OF JOHN KUHN, CHIEF, NEW JERSEY HOMELESS

SERVICES, DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS; CARROLL

THOMAS, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, MIDDLESEX COUNTY

ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY CORPORATION; SCOTT GAINES,

VETERAN, U.S. NAVY; WINTER OTIS, VETERAN, U.S. ARMY; JEROME MCCOY, VETERAN, U.S. MARINES CORPS

STATEMENT OF JOHN KUHN

Mr. KUHN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. I think it is helpful to start thinking about—to start with the

achievements. As a committee, you have already begun to change

the way people think about how we need to treat the homeless.

The committee’s intervention on Operation New Hope, keeping

that alive and active, these are important achievements. I think we

can feel confident that whatever can be done at a national level is

being done.

The three veterans who are here with me today, I am humbled

by their experience, and what they have been able to overcome,

and make use of these programs.

That said on successes, there is no substitute for will. At a local

level, there is so much that has to be decided on and prioritized,

and it is really at a local level where homelessness is addressed.

Certainly there are funding needs that can only be met by Wash-
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ington: cost of housing, the with the permanent housing issue, the

issue of women and children.

But on a local level, there is much that can be done, if there is

a will to do it. And that will requires leadership from the VISN and

from a local director’s level, which I am very fortunate to have that

in New Jersey.

The kinds of programs we have been able to—I just want to talk

about a couple of programs that we have been able to do. And one

of the reasons why Carroll Thomas is here today is we have had

a tremendous relationship in developing employment and housing

for veterans.

As has been described, employment, it’s a touchstone for homelessness. How can you talk about returning to the community when

you can’t afford to pay rent? Plus, I know myself—and I’m sure

people on this committee and the staff behind you—you think of

your job as, in some ways, defining yourself. It lends a measure to

your self-worth, and your sense of meaning, to be able to come to

work every day and do something that means something that’s

productive.

But if you have been incarcerated, if you have a felony history,

if you haven’t worked for over 3 years—all of which are very common in our population—we have a lot of people coming out on parole—good luck trying to find an employer who is going to take a

chance in the somewhat soft economy on hiring you.

It’s our obligation in the VA, at a local level, to take the initiative

to work with the community to develop employment opportunities,

whatever it takes. And that means working with community providers in finding very creative ways to start businesses, if that’s

what it takes. Start a business that is going to be dedicated to employing all those veterans. And that is just what we have done with

Carroll Thomas in opening MAVERIC.

There are legislative initiatives that can be done that could expedite this. We have one thing in the VA—hopefully I’m not going to

get too arcane—but there is a thing within the VA, there is this

funding pot that almost every VA has from its CWT programs.

And the funding just basically sits untouched, because their selfdefinition the VA has placed on these monies is that it’s very constrained how they can be used. And I don’t believe, reading the regulation, that it was ever Congress’s intent.

The money, if it’s used in true risk-sharing, and truly partnering

with the community—I’m not talking about give-aways of money,

or contracting out with other agencies—but the VA helping nonprofits start businesses designed to helping the rehabilitation and

employment of homeless veterans who could not get jobs otherwise,

and that these businesses can then be self-sustaining, requiring no

taxpayer support, and provide a meaningful job to the veteran and

help the local economy.

What’s not to like about that, particularly since all that’s required is a slight regulatory reinterpretation—not even a real

change. The money is already there, it’s just the will to use it, the

will to say, ‘‘We’re going to take this chance. It’s out of our comfort

zone maybe a little bit, but is it going to help veterans? Of course

it’s going to help veterans.’’
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The worst thing that happens is we blow all the money putting

it in the veterans’ pockets employing them, and close up shop. And

at least the money got out to the veterans. So, that’s one example

of how we can, on a purely regulatory level, take the shackles we

have placed on ourselves—because, again, I don’t think it’s Congress, I think it’s our own concerns about doing the right thing— but the right thing is helping the veteran.

I also—I brought one example of partnership, which I invite all

the committee members and your staff to help yourself to. There

is a big box of t-shirts. And this—we had a run, a Flag Day run,

taking strides on homelessness, where the YMCA and us

partnered, really, to increase community awareness and community participation.

And you all, of course, if you take a shirt, you have to come to

our next Flag Day run. It’s only a 5k, and we’re going to have, like,

a 3k walk this year, too, with it.

We have had tons of community sponsors help us, and it really

has involved the community in a new way, because now they get

to work with homeless veterans in setting this up, we had homeless

veterans catering it, running the whole course, it was a nice event.

Did it make much money? No, we probably didn’t make a cent,

but it was a great event, and it increased community awareness.

And it’s just a small thing, but it’s one of the ways we have to look

to our community partners. It’s been said again and again, the VA

can’t do it all. But you know what? The VA should exercise some

leadership. And that happens at a local level every single day. We

have to go out, find our community partners.

Listen to the veterans. They will tell you what we need, these

veterans will tell you what we need. And the two things they say

the most again and again in challenge reports—and not just in

New Jersey, nationally—employment and housing, employment

and housing, again and again. Treatment is vital, and VA is great

at that, but we are not so great at creating jobs, we’re not so great

at running long-term housing.

But it doesn’t mean we can’t take leadership, and it doesn’t mean

we can’t find great partners, like a Carroll Thomas in New Jersey,

or a YMCA, who are just desperate, because it’s meeting their community mission as well, to help the underprivileged. And it’s just

finding the right pairing. Thank you.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Kuhn appears on p. 103.]

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for your testimony. When

is the next run?

Mr. KUHN. The next run is Flag Day. It’s easy to remember.

Every Flag Day. You can take shirts for your staff, too, I’ve got

plenty of them.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thomas.

STATEMENT OF CARROLL THOMAS

Mr. THOMAS. I am going to admit that I am extremely nervous,

but I am Carroll Thomas, and I am the president and CEO for the

Community Action Agency in Central Jersey. Indeed, it’s my pleasure to be here.

I am real proud of the House Committee on Veterans’ Affairs, especially delighted that the chairman is from the Garden State.
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Middlesex Economic Opportunities Corporation has been serving

disadvantaged persons for about 37 years, and we run a host of

programs designed to provide opportunities for persons to become

self-sufficient.

But today I am here to talk about a partnership, a partnership

between MCEOC and New Jersey’s Veteran Services. This alliance

has given a creative and comprehensive approach to servicing

veterans, and it’s appropriately referred to as MAVERIC, Moving

American Veterans into Employment and Residence in the

Community.

The cornerstone of MAVERIC is providing opportunity and comprehensive services in a meaningful way, employing them with dignity and honor and respect.

MCEOC has purchased foreclosed properties, and through the

VA partnerships, we have rehabilitated these properties, creating

transitional housing in support of communities. Veterans are employed by the agency or within the community. In other words, this

is a win-win situation for the veterans, taxpayers, and MCEOC.

The veterans become immediately contributors to the society.

They are partnered in such things as business operation in the

thrift shop in Bound Brook, a horticulture business, we are presently renovating the historical train station for a novelty shop

where eight veterans will be employed.

Next spring, we will be opening up a golf driving range that will

provide full-time employment with a living wage. January of 2003,

we are going to open up a computer recycling business to help

bridge the digital divide for low-income families in our communities. We also assist in transportation, because we all know that

access to service is a must.

The veterans partnership will finish in October building the first

Head Start center in Carteret. Without the VA support in the construction part of it, we would not be able to do this.

Tomorrow, however, I will return to New Jersey to power the

new program called ‘‘Community Land Security. It will employ one

vet who will educate the entire—who will be responsible for educating the untutored in our Nation on the anti-terrorist efforts.

Accompanying me today is Derrick Span, who is our president of

the National Community Action Partnership. The Community Action Partnership consists of over 1,000 agencies across the country

offering a comprehensive array of services to 10 million Americans.

Community Land Security is Mr. Span’s initiative, assuring the

most vulnerable population in our community are included in the

anti-terrorism efforts.

There could be no greater service than to have veterans continue

to serve their country in this mission. We, in community action

agencies, know that if there is going to be a bio-terrorism incident

in our country, it’s going to happen in our communities first.

I wish that I could put more eloquently into words the work of

John Kuhn and the veterans staff and MCEOC, the difference that

I believe that they are making. It’s the entrepreneurial nature by

staff members through business development stabilizing communities, rebuilding homes, preserving permanent housing structures,

and building Head Start centers.
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As a part of our partnership, we work with another national organization, the Afro-American Community Action Leaders, who

help develop the infrastructure for the community action agency in

Middlesex to deliver programs.

MCEOC is real excited to be partnering with John Kuhn to pilot

a women’s transitional housing program. Nothing could be a better

partnership than having Head Start and women veterans’ partnership.

I want to kind of go slightly from the text and say that the partnership worked because all of us were willing to forget who we

were, in terms of it was not the veteran, John Kuhn, it was, ‘‘Let’s

all get busy and do it.’’ And we all shared some risk.

And as my national organization changed its name to the Community Action Partners, I didn’t understand it until I sat here and

listened to everybody talk about all the laws and regulations. Well,

we did this with existing laws, you know, we decided we would

forego some other projects, set some other priorities.

But if we all look outside the box, and all drop whatever our egos

are, whether it’s—it can work. And I have been in this movement

for 17 years. I have been in community action for all of those 17

years. And I have never seen a product that could be replicated as

quickly and as easily as this.

I ask the committee—there is a silent partner here that no one

talks about. That’s the community services block grant that is community action agencies, and there is no replacement, there absolutely is no replacement for the right people at VA.

So, I just want to thank John and the staff, because we’re going

to get a Head Start center. It has nothing to do about VA. But

what a nice magic. The nice thing about it is it’s going to be named

after a black vet who actually helped free Normandy in World War

II.

I apologize for my nervousness, my text is actually better than

that, but I—this is a big thing for me, okay? Thank you. (Applause.)

[The prepared statement of Mr. Thomas appears on p. 106.]

The CHAIRMAN. That was wonderful testimony, thank you. Your

full written statement will be made a part of the record. Thank you

for your fine work.

I would like to ask our next panelist, Mr. Gaines, to proceed.

STATEMENT OF SCOTT GAINES

Mr. GAINES. First of all, I would like to thank you for having us

here today, and for allowing us the opportunity to give back by participating on this panel.

I once read in a book of daily meditation that wherever you find

your feet, your mind puts you there. Of course, this statement is

not absolute or even exclusive to those who suffer from the disease

of addiction, but I made that reference to say that I have no excuse

as to why drugs became a primary focus in my life.

I do have theories concerning this, based on education given to

me by the VA. But I am here to say that, had it not been for the

intervention provided by programs of the Veterans’ Administration,

I would be dead, or even in prison.
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My road to recovery began in the hallway of the East Orange VA

Medical Center. I was on the waiting list for inpatient care at the

drug and alcohol rehabilitation unit. I had 3 days clean, and I was

in outpatient care until a bed became available.

But I was still living in the crack house. I had nowhere else to

go. My family no longer trusted me because of my addictive behavior. I was sitting there thinking, ‘‘How long can I stay clean, living

in a crack house,’’ when every day I came from the hospital I was

confronted with drugs?

I had to lock myself in my room until it was time for me to go

back to the hospital the next day. And I didn’t know how long I

would be able to continue to do this, when a man walked up to me

and asked me, ‘‘So, what’s your problem?’’ And I told him exactly

what was on my mind.

He asked me to step into his office. We sat down, and he began

to punch the keyboard on his computer, and then he asked me if

I could handle staying there one more night, because he was getting out of there and admitting me in the morning.

I couldn’t believe that someone actually wanted to help me,

someone who had very little hope of being anything other than

what I was. He hugged me and told me this was the beginning of

the rest of my life, and he said now the rest was up to me.

I completed the 21-day program in 29 days, and I was termed a ‘‘chronic relapser.’’ And it was suggested that I needed more treatment. So they sent me to a domiciliary program at Lyons VA Medical Center.

And that’s where the work began, getting in touch with who I

was and what I truly wanted out of life. Lyons VA Medical Center

offered a complete program for a homeless vet that not only focused

on drug and alcohol addiction, but they deal with teaching viable

job skills. They also deal with the problem behind the problem.

We didn’t wake up one day and say, ‘‘I want to be a drug addict

today.’’ Something distorted our thinking, which dictates our attitudes and behaviors. I completed the program at Lyons in 41⁄2

months.

From there, I went into the VA transitional housing, which is

what I call the last phase of the program. It enables a person to

reacquaint himself or herself with the daily rigors of life. Everyone

in the house has a job, and we share the responsibility of the maintenance of the house.

Today I have my own place. It’s not a big place, but I am grateful

for it, nevertheless. Today, 2 years later, I am the receiving manager of Home Depot, a place where people look to me for leadership. They allow me to run my department as I see fit.

Today, my nephews and nieces run to my arms when I visit

them. My sister says that’s because I’m a big kid, too. But I will

take it any way I can get it. And the glow that I see from my mother’s smile is priceless.

Recovery is a personal issue for me. It’s not something that I

ever thought I would be speaking about in public. But because of

the fellowship of which I am a member, I have learned that it’s not

about what people say about you, or your past, but how you respond to what they say. And it’s not about where you live, but how

you react to the environment in which you live.
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It’s amazing to me to think where I came from, in a spiritual

sense, and where I am today. I thank my Lord for giving me hope,

and for the VA for providing me the place to gain more hope.

Thank you. (Applause.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Gaines, thank you very much for, obviously,

what was a very painful story to tell. I have to tell you, you do inspire us to do more.

It was asked: what has the VA done? Well, the VA has done a

lot, and a lot of caring people have made sure that they are there

for you. The key is making sure that for everyone who might find

themselves in need of the service, that it be there.

That’s our burden, obligation, and duty—to make sure that all

that can be done is done. Thank you for having the courage to be

here, to make that presentation. It certainly motivates and inspires

us.

Mr. GAINES. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Otis.

STATEMENT OF WINTER OTIS

Ms. OTIS. Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Winter Otis, and

I am here today to represent the women in the domiciliary at

Lyons VA, New Jersey.

It’s a great honor to be here. The domiciliary at Lyons has given

me so much hope about having a bright future, that it’s much—it’s

really nice to be able to share that experience with you today.

But I just arrived about 6 months ago. I was just another broken-down veteran who was homeless and in need of help. I never,

in my wildest dreams, dreamed of coming to Washington to speak

before a committee in regard to the plight of female homeless

veterans.

The program at Lyons is the reason I am here, and mainly

because of all the support I have received from the chief, Mr. John

Kuhn, and the rest of the staff. The program at Lyons has a wide

range of services to help us get our lives back on track: health,

work readiness, drug and alcohol counseling, spiritual counseling,

computer labs, compensated work therapy, nursing assistant training, as well as working hand-in-hand with a patient rehabilitation,

and also helping us secure employment in surrounding

communities.

After treatment, and when it’s time for us females to enter society, it’s much harder for us, as opposed to our male counterparts.

We don’t have transitional houses to go to. Usually, we have to go

back to the same environment that we came from, and that usually

leads to disaster.

Having to go back to the same environment makes it much harder for us to recover from our addiction, and rebuild our lives, because all the same problems that we had to face are once there

again.

They say recovery is about staying away from people, places, and

things. The women veterans are in dire need for a permanent transitional residence, a low-income housing section 8. All we want is

the same opportunity for recovery as our male counterparts.

I personally feel that if we had more accessible transitional

dwellings, our relapse would drop, our rate of relapse would drop.
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I speak for myself, as well as my fellow female veterans who served

this country proudly. I cannot express to you the urgent attention

that is needed in this matter. It has been an honor to represent the

female alliance by coming here today and having the chance just

to express my views to you.

Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to thank you for your wonderful reception, and the chance to express my views to you. This

day has truly been an honor for me, and truly makes me proud to

be an American. May God bless each and every one of you.

(Applause.)

The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Otis, thank you for your testimony, and for

ensuring that we not forget the female veteran who is on the

streets.

We have had some previous women veterans testify before, and

it helped us in crafting this legislation to put in a specific provision

to ensure that female veterans are not forgotten. In percentage and

numbers terms, obviously, the men far outnumber the women. But

that doesn’t mean they are any less valuable and important to this

Committee, and to the provision of service.

Thank you for your testimony, and for helping us keep that

focus, and to keep us on the ball.

Mr. McCoy, if you would proceed?

STATEMENT OF JEROME McCOY

Mr. MCCOY. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, panel members. I

would also like to thank this committee for allowing us to come

down here to speak. After listening to two former veterans, I mean,

I’m overwhelmed.

As far as the domiciliary is concerned, I was listening to you

speak earlier when you started out by saying the teeth—and I do

have a set of teeth that fit, compliments of the VA. Very important.

You spoke about prison. I also am a member of that club. I graduated domiciliary after staying there for about 18 months. Mr.

Kuhn—I have had the opportunity to work with Mr. Thomas.

Things have just been going great for me.

I couldn’t help but overhear when you spoke to the Secretary

about the voucher program, because I’m in the last phase of this

program, being introduced back into society. I’m permanently

working—I completed a nursing assistant program at the VA, I

worked on the construction aspect as a foreman, we built a greenhouse there.

But this program that John just instituted, it was five veterans

from the domiciliary CWT program. And we completed it, and the

VA, they hired 25 permanent personnel. And out of the five CWT

workers, I believe we maintained the highest score in those that

were hired.

There is just so much, I can go on, but Scott, you just got me

overwhelmed. It’s just—it’s amazing. I’ve been able to accomplish

a lot, like I say, spending time in prison, coming home. I have been

able to get my license back. I have an associate’s degree.

I was going to say drugs and alcohol ruled my life, but I guess

if it wasn’t for what I went through, I wouldn’t be where I’m at.

So, it’s just amazing I’m down here, coming from prison, speaking

in front of a panel. You were right.
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It’s important that this domiciliary program maintains its funding, and like, in the wake of what’s going on now, with this 9/11,

you know, these young guys going out here, and it’s inevitable. The

way of life as we know it is going to be changed.

You know, these young men, if they’re going to be doing battle

for this country, I guess they’re going to want some incentive, you

know, to know that their country is behind them.

And I didn’t think I was going to break up like this, but just

thinking about it overwhelms me.

I just wanted to thank all of you and your efforts, and John

Kuhn and Mr. Thomas, for giving me the opportunity. Like I said,

I’m in the last phase of the program. And being that the Senate

Committee had the voucher program on hold, I mean, that’s not

going to deter me, but it would make things a lot easier.

However, I just recently have been called in to do an interview

with the VA. And they’re probably going to bring me off of permanent employment. And I am just going to continue to hold my head

up and do what I have to do. Thanks for letting me speak.

(Applause.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McCoy, thank you, as well for that excellent

testimony, and for reminding us what it’s all about. You are really

a success story, and it makes us want to double all of our efforts,

to make sure that no one is left behind.

Tonight, there will be many homeless veterans on the street. The

estimates vary minimally, at 250,000, upwards of 300,000.

I’m not sure what the actual number is, but every one of those

men and women could be success stories. Any one of us could be

down on our luck at any given time in our lives, and be in need

of assistance, a hand, a good, friendly hand-out to help us help ourselves. You have become an inspiration to help others. We want to

thank you all of you.

The testimony that we have received—especially from you who

have fought the good fight and made it—and your tears really become inspirational. We need to do all that is humanly possible to

make sure that no one is left behind.

The collaboration that John Kuhn and Mr. Thomas have demonstrated is another one of those partnerships that make it all happen. You mentioned the community development block grant. We

need to find more and more spigots to make it happen.

One aspect of this bill was to get those community-based organizations and the State-based organizations, which have done yeoman’s work for so long, under-heralded, Under President Bush,

there is a greater emphasis on that.

Your testimony answers all the questions, but the centrality, or

the importance of faith in getting through this, we know that AA,

AlAnon, Gamblers Anonymous, all of them, very often in their multiple step programs, do put an emphasis on the higher power. Was

that of relevance to you, in helping you as well, Mr. Gaines?

Mr. GAINES. Yes, it was. I always believed in a higher power, but

I had gotten away from certain values that I was raised to believe

in, due to low self-esteem and other issues.

But I don’t believe in coincidences any more. I think everything

is designed by my Lord, and that’s basically it.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes?
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Mr. THOMAS. Mr. Chairman, one of the reasons the Department

should work so well—because we still have people saying, ‘‘Not in

my neighborhood,’’ in terms of transitional housing, and we do have

a house in our governor’s neighborhood right now—and one of the

things that we did was to assure that we had a faith-based partner

that would support the house and help explain the house, and

what’s going on.

And we have only had to use it one time, when we thought that

we were going to have a ‘‘not in my neighborhood’’ syndrome going

on. But that’s why it really is about losing its identity, because the

faith-based partners can do what faith-based partners should do.

‘‘And as for me and my house, I am going to serve the Lord.’’ And the more we bring people closer to the actual elements of

the community, the better we are. And that is including making

sure that the 12-step programs are tied in, and are accessible. So

there is a real role. And I think it is the community services block

grant.

The community development block grant is one that is often

passed on to municipalities, and we have some real problems with

that one, because it does not reach the grass roots levels. East

Brunswick ain’t housing in Monroe Township, okay? There is a big

difference. And so, it’s the community services block grant. I’m

sorry.

The CHAIRMAN. No, that’s good. Thank you. If nothing else, I

would just like to thank you. The scripture you quoted, Mr. Thomas—if you walk into my front door, my wife and I have that—— Mr. THOMAS. Amen.

The CHAIRMAN. ‘‘As for my house, we will serve the Lord.’’ I do

believe that apart from Him, I could do nothing, either.

The one thing that I have learned in my walk, and I am almost

50 years old, is that we kid ourselves if we think we could get

through this life without God and without a higher power. (Applause.)

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you for your tremendous testimony. We

will fight hard, going forward. Your inspirational stories will be of

great impact because we use them, believe me. We use them, in

talking to our colleagues who didn’t get to hear you today, to let

them know what it’s really like, and of the great unmet need.

Thank you. Hearing is adjourned.

[Whereupon, at 4:22 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
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A P P E N D I X
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PREPARED STATEMENT OF CONGRESSMAN RODRIGUEZ

Thank you Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member Evans for hosting this important

hearing.

I would like to thank my colleagues on this committee for joining together on a

bi-partisan basis to support the passage of PL 107–95.

The Homeless Veterans Assistance Act, which provided the Department of Veterans Affairs with the authority to consolidate its efforts to provide health care, housing and employment training, and other benefits and services to homeless veterans,

is certainly an important first step in what must be a comprehensive approach to

ending this shameful problem.

As I review the statistics on homeless veterans, I am especially concerned with

the issue of ‘‘chronic’’ homelessness, a tragedy which is far too common among those

who should be our most honored Americans, our veterans.

I strongly support the goals set by Congress to end chronic homelessness among

veterans nationwide within the decade.

Because of these significant and pressing issues that I am especially anxious to

learn directly from Secretary Principi the progress the Department of Veterans Affairs has made in moving swiftly to enact the essential provisions set forward by

Congress and signed into law by the President in PL 107–95.

In addition to Secretary Principi, I am also pleased that we have with us today

a collection of practitioners from around the country who are all working through

a variety of private and public agencies, all committed to ending this complex and

challenging issue.

I would like to thank everyone in advance for your participation and responsiveness throughout today’s hearing on this issue of critical concern to all Americans.

PREPARED STATEMENT OF CONGRESSMAN MILLER

Thank you Mr. Chairman.

I am pleased to be with you today. I would like to thank Secretary Principi and

the other distinguished panelists for their testimony today. Your input is invaluable

to us as we attempt to do what is right and best for our veterans. I also want to

thank you for your vigilant advocacy for our nation’s homeless veterans population,

and for stewarding the Comprehensive Veterans Homeless Assistance Act through

Congress an on to become law. Just as does this Committee, our homeless veterans

owe you much gratitude for your dedication to this issue through the years.

The increasing occurrence of homelessness amongst our nation’s veterans is of

growing concern to the Members of this Committee, and I thank VA and all of you

here today for your timely work in implementing Public Law 107–95 in the nine

months that have passed since President Bush signed this landmark legislation. But

there is much work yet to be done, and I look forward to hearing today what is to

come. We must fulfill our obligations to care for those who place their lives on the

line to defend our nation, our people, and our principles; and to do so we must be

willing to provide the needed resources. I am confident that we are on the right

track, but rest assured that we are by no means done.

Again, I look forward to your testimony today and thank each of you for your assistance as we do our duty for our nation’s finest.
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76
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79
80
81
82
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84
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100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108

STATEMENT OF RICHARD JONES, NATIONAL LEGISLATIVE DIRECTOR, AMVETS
109
110
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122

WRITTEN COMMITTEE QUESTIONS AND THEIR RESPONSES

CHAIRMAN SMITH TO DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
123
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128
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131

CONGRESSMAN EVANS TO DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
132
133
134

CONGRESSWOMAN DAVIS TO DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
135

CHAIRMAN SMITH TO RAYMOND BOLAND
136
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142
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148

CHAIRMAN SMITH TO CENTURY HOUSING CORPORATION
149
150
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152
153

Æ