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78–241 PS 2002

H.R. 2716, HOMELESS VETERANS ASSISTANCE ACT

OF 2001; AND H.R. 936, HEATHER FRENCH

HENRY HOMELESS VETERANS ASSISTANCE ACT

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

SEPTEMBER 20, 2001

Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs

Serial No. 107–12

(
COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS

CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey, Chairman

BOB STUMP, Arizona

MICHAEL BILIRAKIS, Florida

TERRY EVERETT, Alabama

STEPHEN E. BUYER, Indiana

JACK QUINN, New York

CLIFF STEARNS, Florida

JERRY MORAN, Kansas

HOWARD P. (BUCK) MCKEON, California

JIM GIBBONS, Nevada

MICHAEL K. SIMPSON, Idaho

RICHARD H. BAKER, Louisiana

ROB SIMMONS, Connecticut

ANDER CRENSHAW, Florida

HENRY E. BROWN, JR., South Carolina

JEFF MILLER, Florida

JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas

LANE EVANS, Illinois

BOB FILNER, California

LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois

CORRINE BROWN, Florida

JULIA CARSON, Indiana

SILVESTRE REYES, Texas

VIC SNYDER, Arkansas

CIRO D. RODRIGUEZ, Texas

RONNIE SHOWS, Mississippi

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts

SHELLEY BERKLEY, Nevada

BARON P. HILL, Indiana

TOM UDALL, New Mexico

SUSAN A. DAVIS, California

PATRICK E. RYAN, Chief Counsel and Staff Director

(II)
(III)

C O N T E N T S

September 20, 2001

Page

H.R. 2716, Homeless Veterans Assistance Act of 2001; and H.R. 936, Heather

French Henry Homeless Veterans Assistance Act ............................................ 1

OPENING STATEMENTS

Chairman Smith ...................................................................................................... 1

Hon. Lane Evans, ranking democratic member, Committee on Veterans’

Affairs .................................................................................................................... 3

Prepared statement of Congressman Evans .................................................. 135

Hon. Michael K. Simpson, chairman, Subcommittee on Benefits ....................... 5

Hon. Ciro D. Rodriguez ........................................................................................... 5

Hon. Henry E. Brown .............................................................................................. 6

Hon. Shelley Berkley ............................................................................................... 6

Hon. Bob Filner ....................................................................................................... 7

Hon. Rob Simmons .................................................................................................. 23

Hon. Julia Carson .................................................................................................... 25

Hon. Silvestre Reyes, prepared statement of ........................................................ 139

WITNESSES

Bernardi, Hon. Roy A., Assistant Secretary for Community Planning and

Development, Department of Housing and Urban Development, accompanied by John B. Garrity, Director, Office of Special Needs Assistance ....... 11

Prepared statement of Mr. Bernardi .............................................................. 176

Blake, Carl, Associate Legislative Director, Paralyzed Veterans of America ..... 40

Prepared statement of Mr. Blake .................................................................... 182

Boone, Linda, Executive Director, National Coalition for Homeless Veterans .. 46

Prepared statement of Ms. Boone ................................................................... 200

Collick, Mr. Stuart, veteran .................................................................................... 36

Garrick, Jacqueline, Deputy Director, Health Care, National Veterans Affairs

and Rehabilitation Commission, The American Legion .................................... 43

Prepared statement of Ms. Garrick ................................................................ 193

Gipson, Ms. Angela, veteran ................................................................................... 35

Henry, Heather French, Miss America 2000 ......................................................... 28

Jones, Theodore R., Chief Steward, Local 1647, American Federation of Government Employees, AFL-CIO ............................................................................ 48

Prepared statement of Mr. Jones .................................................................... 209

Kuhn, John, Chief, VA New Jersey Homeless Services; accompanied by Angela Gipson and Walter McConnell .................................................................... 31

Prepared statement of Mr. Kuhn .................................................................... 179

Lawrence, Brian E., Associate National Legislative Director, Disabled American Veterans ........................................................................................................ 42

Prepared statement of Mr. Lawrence ............................................................. 187

McConnell, Mr. Walter, veteran ............................................................................. 37

Murphy, Frances, M.D., Deputy Under Secretary for Health, Department

of Veterans Affairs, accompanied by Peter H. Dougherty, Director, Homeless Veterans Programs ....................................................................................... 8

Prepared statement of Dr. Murphy ................................................................. 141

Schneider, Richard, Director, State/Veterans Affairs, Non Commissioned Officers Association .................................................................................................... 52

Prepared statement of Mr. Schneider ............................................................. 222

Selfon, Leonard, appearing for Richard Weidman, Director of Government

Relations, Vietnam Veterans of America ........................................................... 49
Page

IV

Selfon, Leonard, appearing for Richard Weidman, Director of Government

Relations, Vietnam Veterans of America—Continued

Prepared statement of Vietnam Veterans of America ................................... 213

MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Bill and attached summary of provisions of the bill:

H.R. 2716, A bill to amend title 38, United States Code, to provide,

improve, and consolidate provisions of law providing benefits and services for homeless veterans ............................................................................ 57, 90

H.R. 936, A bill to amend title 38, United States Code, to improve

programs for homeless veterans, and for other purposes ..........................93, 128

Statements:

American Psychiatric Association ................................................................... 237

AMVETS ........................................................................................................... 230

National Mental Health Association ............................................................... 234

Veterans of Foreign Wars ................................................................................ 244

Written committee questions and their responses:

Congressman Evans to Department of Veterans Affairs .............................. 248

Congressman Evans to Department of Housing and Urban Development .. 249

Chairman Smith to Paralyzed Veterans of America ..................................... 254

Chairman Smith to Disabled American Veterans ......................................... 256

Congressman Evans to Disabled American Veterans ................................... 257

Congressman Evans to The American Legion ............................................... 258

Congressman Evans to American Federation of Government Employees ... 260

Chairman Smith to Non Commissioned Officers Association ....................... 262
(1)

H.R. 2716, HOMELESS VETERANS ASSISTANCE

ACT OF 2001; AND H.R. 936, HEATHER

FRENCH HENRY HOMELESS VETERANS

ASSISTANCE ACT

THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 2001

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS, Washington, DC.

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 1:35 p.m., in room 334,

Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Christopher H. Smith (chairman of the committee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Smith of New Jersey, Moran, Simpson,

Simmons, Brown of South Carolina, Evans, Filner, Carson, Snyder,

Rodriguez and Berkley.

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN SMITH OF NEW JERSEY

The CHAIRMAN. The hearing will come to order; and good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

The events of September 11 in New York City and the Pentagon

demonstrate the true character of our Nation. We are a great Nation. Although we have been stunned by the ferocity and viciousness of our enemies, it is not the attack itself or the death, destruction, anger or sorrow that will define our national character. The

important thing, I would respectfully submit, is how we respond as

a free Nation to acts of terror. And we will indeed respond.

As I said on the floor of the House last week, those who wish us

harm should know that American is strong, determined, and resilient. America is united and is not to be underestimated. With God’s

guidance and blessing, we will recover, and we will prevail.

This hearing this afternoon is intended to illuminate what we, as

a Congress, need to do to assist our homeless veterans. The hearing was scheduled before our country was attacked September 11.

Given the current circumstances and the likelihood that America

will once again rely on our men and women in uniform to defend

our freedom, it is more important than ever that our government

stands with our current and our future veterans.

Before going any further, I would like to ask all present for a moment of silence for prayer or reflection on the innocent and heroic

Americans who have borne the burden on behalf of our country

over these last 10 days. If you wouldn’t mind taking a moment of

silence.
2

Thank you for observing that. I am, ladies and gentlemen, very

honored to be the chairman of this committee; and with Mr. Evans,

the ranking member, we intend to fulfill our obligations that this

committee do the right and responsible thing for all of our

veterans.

Our goal here is to promote healing, it is to promote restoration,

and it is to promote recovery of those who have fallen on the hardest of times; and these are the veteran whose are homeless in

America.

While providence smiles on this country, a few are left behind.

A large number of veterans are counted among them. Estimates

vary, but we believe that at least 225,000 American veterans are

homeless on any given night. The Independent Budget suggested

the number is closer to 275,000 who are homeless on any given

night.

According to Secretary Bernardi, who will testify today, approximately 80 percent of those homeless are disabled. For these veterans, access to VA benefits, specialized services and housing alternatives are vital components to improvement of their prospects.

It is important to create and keep programs that give veterans

the opportunity to become self-sufficient and to concentrate resources on programs that work. Some part of our government’s

homeless assistance programs ought to stress prevention. That is

made again and again in the system that has been submitted to

us as a strategy to help the homeless. Both bills before the committee today were drafted with a number of these goals in mind.

We know a majority of veterans who are homeless suffer from serious mental illness, and drug and alcohol abuse complicates their

situations.

Many homeless veterans have been in jail. Absence of important

anchors to society—like a job, family and housing—leads to increased utilization of medical resources in emergency rooms, VA

and other public hospitals and, unfortunately, our country’s police

departments, jails, prisons and courtrooms. Thus, society pays for

homelessness one way or the other; and this needs to change.

A full array of services may be available to veterans through VA

medical facilities, but without coordination relief is temporary because veterans released from VA health care frequently are exposed to the same conditions that created the problems in the first

place. That is why prevention and accountability are two important

priorities for us. We need to find ways to prevent veterans from

spiraling down to homelessness. But to be responsible we should

also provide for them and their caregivers a sense of accountability.

I would like to review some of the important proposals of the bill,

H.R. 2716.

(The attachment appears on p. 90.)

The CHAIRMAN. First, it would raise accountability of the three

Federal departments most directly involved in homeless assistance

to veterans: the VA, the Department of Labor and HUD.

It would improve and expand VA’s homeless grant and per diem

program and would authorize higher funding for the program. It

also provides new mechanisms for setting and adjustment per diem

payments and eliminates red tape.
3

The bill includes a small demonstration program to test a prevention hypotheses for incarcerated veterans. The purpose of this

demonstration project would be to provide incarcerated veterans

VA information, referral and counseling for job training, housing,

health care, and other services to assist in their reintegration into

society.

My bill would also authorize a small demonstration program to

provide housing assistance to veterans in group homes with a goal

of sobriety and self-governance. Field elements of the VA have

helped sponsor 20 of those homes. It would also provide for a hundred more over a 2-year period.

I want to applaud my friend and colleague, the ranking member,

Mr. Evans, for H.R. 936, a bill that has a number of good provisions on which I hope we can all find agreement. I look forward to

working with the ranking member in trying to craft this legislation

before we go to subcommittee and into full committee.

Let me also point out that the recent attacks on innocent Americans at the Pentagon and in New York and in Pennsylvania have

shocked and traumatized thousands, perhaps millions of persons

who witnessed them. Many continue to have nightmares, some

have not returned to work, and some may be unable to continue

leading productive lives, unable to do so because they have developed post-traumatic stress disorder.

The VA has been in the forefront, as all of you know, in efforts

to improve treatment and diagnosis of this disorder, which affects

a significant number of veterans, including many homeless veterans. The VA is a national resource for the treatment of persons

with PTSD. I want to encourage officials planning recovery efforts

to utilize the VA in responding to what is projected to be a significant upsurge in persons with this mental disorder. If additional

funds are needed, this committee will do everything within its

power to see that those funds are made available.

Let me just finally say, I deeply appreciate the input that we

have gotten from a number of sources, but this year at the national

memorial service for Memorial Day, the focus was on homeless veterans, and I did especially want to thank Jerry Colbert for the outstanding job that he did at that very important anniversary of Memorial Day out in front of the Capitol where the focus was on what

we have done. The large numbers of individual cases that were

highlighted during that ceremony were very riveting, and I think

the challenge that was issued to each and every one of us is that

we can and we must do more. So I want to thank Jerry for his

leadership and for those who took part in that and who have gone

on to discuss nationwide this often forgotten and under-focusedupon blight, and that is the fact that so many of our veterans are

walking the street homeless. We need to step up to the plate and

try to resolve that issue.

Again, I want to thank you; and I want to yield to Mr. Evans

for comments that he may have.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LANE EVANS, RANKING

DEMOCRATIC MEMBER, COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS

Mr. EVANS. Thank you.
4

I associate myself with what you have said about the homeless

veterans and the other issues about PTSD because we have kept

the PTSD program at the storefront counseling centers and fought

for the funding through the Reagan and Clinton years. So we have

accomplished something that we hope that we can expand upon.

I am very pleased that Heather French Henry is joining us

today. She is a great advocate for homeless veterans.

I would just like to say a few words about what happened a week

ago, and it is—you know, as the President has indicated, that war

has changed in many ways as a result of this terrorist bombing,

and that is true. We need to rethink some of the VA programs, and

I am really not offering any proposals today, but I hope this committee would act on legislation that will affect veterans throughout

this system.

Some time ago, I was at the Hermitage in St. Petersburg and

took a tour in which the guides were mostly elderly women with

what I thought was a combat award. I asked the tour guides, what

is this award, and what is its meaning? And they said that this

was a veterans medal for the people of Russia, and that it was used

for everyone. And just as you have fellow veterans at that time in

the military, to the extent that they should have been in, they

couldn’t understand us because they said that there—in the Soviet

Union that every person was a veteran.

We may be coming to that. If we have other terrorist incidents,

that may occur on the West Coast, East Coast, the South or the

Midwest. There is going to be a price to be paid. And we have 172

hospitals in the VA hospital system that—many of which aren’t up

to speed. It is something that we are going to have to look at very

closely because they are considered the back-up hospital system for

the military.

I can tell you that we are helping. There are 172 facilities. But

we want to keep them going. I could kick myself in the rear end

at times for not objecting more to the analysis that we heard on

this committee, again under Republican and Democratic administrations, that we could cut back on VA hospitals because World

War II veterans were dying at a record pace and that we didn’t

need them anymore. We are finding that we may very much need

them, and I think we ought to be consulting with each other about

ideas that we may have, not to be enacting programs immediately.

You have been a leader, Mr. Smith, and I would like to work with

you in that regard.

Thank you.

[The prepared statement of Congressman Evans appears on p.

135.]

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Evans, thank you very much. You know,

there is a great sense of unity, obviously, in the country now as a

result of last week’s attack, but it has been a pleasure to work with

you in a bipartisan way throughout. Having been on this committee for all of my 21 years and having served with you for so many

years, I look forward to working with you on all of those issues.

Thank you.

I would like to recognize the Chairman for our Benefits Subcommittee, Mr. Mike Simpson.
5

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MICHAEL K. SIMPSON,

CHAIRMAN, SUBCOMMITTEE ON BENEFITS

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you. I appreciate your comments, both the

ranking member and yourself, for your comments; and thank you

for the moment of silence.

For several reasons I am pleased that you convened this hearing

today. First, in light of the acts against our Nation last week, there

will be no doubt in anyone’s mind that we are continuing to represent our constituents in the United States as a whole. More importantly, we are showing our dedication to the members of our

Armed Forces who may very well see combat in the near future.

Indeed, those who are serving our Nation benefit from the legislation we are discussing this afternoon.

I also want to thank our witnesses for their resolve.

Mrs. Heather French-Henry, it is heartening to know that you

didn’t abandon your platform when you passed your baton to the

current Miss America. As a matter of fact, I understand that you

were helping before you even began your reign as Ms. Kentucky.

I applaud you for that.

While I look forward to hearing from all of our witnesses, I am

looking forward to today’s comments from the Veterans’ Administration officials representing the Departments of Veterans’ Affairs

and HUD. While it seems that particular circumstances and situations may prevent a complete end to the homelessness, it is imperative that these departments, in conjunction with the Department

of Labor, work together to get a handle on what can and needs to

be done to help these veterans help themselves.

Again, I thank you for calling this hearing today, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Chairman Simpson.

I would like to recognize Mr. Rodriguez.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CIRO D. RODRIGUEZ

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I also want to thank you and indicate I am real pleased with

your remarks as well as the piece of legislation we have before us.

I know when I first came here less than 4 years ago I had real

serious concerns that we were not doing enough. I still feel we are

not doing enough. There is nothing worse than seeing our veterans

out in the street unable to get a place to stay in and oftentimes

self-medicating themselves. Because of the many problems they

face—one of the concerns I continue to have from a mental health

perspective is that we do not have sufficient programs that reach

out. Because many homeless veterans are mentally ill, they are

less likely to come in for services. Clearly, we need to reach out to

them, and I note that there is some effort to do that with some of

the resources provided in this legislation.

I also want to thank Miss America for her efforts and thank you

for focusing attention on this issue which is not a very popular

issue. Hopefully, it is becoming a little more popular with your efforts. But I do want to thank you, and hopefully we can make some

gains.

Mr. Chairman, you mentioned post-traumatic stress disorder

syndrome. I think there is no doubt that a lot of those veterans suffer from this. In the wake of the September 11 tragedy many
6

Americans will also suffer from PTSD symptoms such as irritability, insomnia, nightmares, anger and hatred that comes along with

that, and blame displacement to.

Hopefully, we will continue to provide this much needed assistance as quickly as possible.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Mr. Brown.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. HENRY E. BROWN

Mr. BROWN of South Carolina. Mr. Chairman, let me just say I

appreciate the efforts that you have brought forth in support of veterans. I know when I ran for Congress—this is my freshman

year—it was to—and the reason I wanted to be on this committee—to try to remedy some of the inequities that we find in the veteran population. I certainly applaud the sponsors of this particular

bill. Note that I support it and I thank those in attendance.

I don’t know if anybody is here from South Carolina, but it is a

pleasure to represent you.

The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Berkley.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SHELLEY BERKLEY

Ms. BERKLEY. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you very

much for convening these hearings. It adds a little normalcy to my

life, which I appreciate.

I would like to associate myself with both your remarks and the

ranking member’s remarks. I thought that they were eloquent

under any circumstances but particularly in light of what has transpired in our Nation.

I am also especially pleased to welcome Heather French Henry.

I am not sure she remembers me, but I remember when she came

to Las Vegas. You know, we are quite accustomed to celebrities in

Las Vegas, but I must say that she made an amazing impact, and

I believe the mayor of Las Vegas has not quite recovered from her

visit yet.

If I could just take a moment to share with you the Las Vegas

economy and, you know, I boast of my hometown whenever I get

a chance. I share with this committee that I have got the fastestgrowing veterans population in the United State, and that is a remarkable community.

It has been fairly well devastated economically. We have one

major industry in the city of Las Vegas, that is tourism; and, needless to say, in light of what has transpired nobody is traveling

much and the Las Vegas hotels are quite empty.

But if I could just share with you the incredible amount of support that has poured out of Las Vegas. Each of the hotels has donated millions of dollars to the rescue efforts. Individual citizens

have now distributed over $900 million in a shared effort to bring

some relief to our fellow citizens in New York and Washington, DC,

who have been hit so tragically. The lines to give blood are around

the block. People are waiting for several hours just to give a pint

of blood to show solidarity.

We have a search and rescue team from Las Vegas in New York

City at ground zero as we speak, and our National Guard has been

deployed to Egypt just to be there in case they are called to action.
7

I say this to contrast with you that 20 percent of my homeless

population in Las Vegas are veterans. This is a very, very important issue for my hometown. The numbers are just staggering, as

I know Miss America observed when she was there.

So I am particularly pleased that we could get moving on this

issue. Because long after the United States ferrets out these terrorists and brings them to justice we will have these other problems.

It may very well be exaggerated of what may occur over the next

several months and years in this country.

So I think it is time we rolled up our sleeves and get this problem that our veterans have encountered. I thank you very much for

holding this committee.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. Dr. Snyder. Mr. Filner.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BOB FILNER

Mr. FILNER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Evans, for bringing these bills today. I think working together and incorporating

elements of both bills before us will provide this committee with an

opportunity to really help our homeless veterans.

I am an original sponsor of one of those bills, the Heather French

Henry Homeless Veterans Assistance Act. I believe this addresses

many of the problematic areas in VA health care.

When my subcommittee held a hearing this June on mental

health, witnesses almost uniformly agreed that there were real

problems in the mental health structure. Expensive, specialized

programs are disappearing and mental health access in the less

centralized health care system is, at best, spotty. We are also clear

on the problems that have led to this scenario—scarce funding and

overzealous attempts to manage costs, even at the expense of eliminating effective programs. It is clear that to help homeless veterans

the most effective mental health programs must be available where

and when veterans need them. There is no other way for the VA

to succeed in helping this population.

We all know the statistics. One report estimates that as many

as 350,000 veterans were homeless and received services during

the year 1999.

The Southern California and the Nevada VISN 22 has the largest number of homeless veterans in the country, almost 52,000 of

our veterans; and my city of San Diego has a good proportion of

them.

In addition to the VA’s challenge in managing the homeless veteran population, Mr. Chairman, we have serious problems with the

VA safety net for mental health programs. Among those are the

virtual gutting of the inpatient mental health capacity that has

taken place in less than a decade, the failure to develop a viable

community mental health infrastructure, and the significant decreases in our programs to help veterans address substance abuse

disorders.

I believe that H.R. 936 offers a comprehensive approach that will

allow us to address these situations.

The Heather French Henry Homeless Veterans Assistance Act is

attempting to right the wrong that has led to the loss of VA mental

health services in many areas across the country. These are the

programs that homeless veterans need to pull their lives together,
8

to relearn basic living skills, including relating to others. Sadly,

chemical dependency and social illnesses are often associated with

homelessness and compound the problems veterans confront in getting their lives back on track.

Working together with you, Mr. Chairman, and combining the

elements of the bills here, I believe that we can correct these

problems.

I would like to associate myself with the various remarks that

my colleagues have made on the events of September 11.

I would add that there will be pressure on us, Mr. Chairman, to

push aside, quote, less important or less priority bills like these before us in an effort to meet the threat of terrorism. Certainly that

is our first priority, but the terrorists will have won if we do not

keep pushing on the areas that we know are so important to this

Nation.

So I urge you, Mr. Chairman, to use your influence with the majority party’s leadership so that some of these important things not

be pushed aside and, if necessary, we revise our budget to allow

us to fight the battle against the terrorists but also allow us to

fight the battles that we need to do at home. If we only do one,

again, we will have lost; the terrorists will have won.

So let’s not forget these issues during this national emergency,

and let us continue to be Americans and help those who need it the

most.

The CHAIRMAN. Thanks, Mr. Filner. Your point is very well

taken, especially since we have a division of labor. This committee

can work while other committees are doing work, from the International Relations Committee to the Judiciary Committee to the

Armed Services Committee; there is no reason why we can’t move

ahead without any diminution of our ability to get this passed.

I would like to invite our first panel to the witness table. The

first panel is Dr. Frances Murphy, Deputy Under Secretary for

Health, and Peter Dougherty, Director, Homeless Veterans

Programs; and Roy A. Bernardi, Assistant Secretary for Community Planning and Development at HUD. And John Garrity will accompany Roy, who is the Director of the Office of Special Needs

Assistance.

STATEMENTS OF FRANCES MURPHY, M.D., DEPUTY UNDER

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH, DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS

AFFAIRS, ACCOMPANIED BY PETER H. DOUGHERTY, DIRECTOR, HOMELESS VETERANS PROGRAMS; AND HON. ROY A.

BERNARDI, ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR COMMUNITY PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT, DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND

URBAN DEVELOPMENT, ACCOMPANIED BY JOHN B.

GARRITY, DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF SPECIAL NEEDS

ASSISTANCE

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Murphy, you may begin.

STATEMENT OF FRANCES MURPHY, M.D.

Dr. MURPHY. I ask to put my full statement in the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection. And all members, if they have

additional comments that they would like to add.
9

Dr. MURPHY. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, first, I

would like to begin by saying how very proud I am of the contributions and the heroism of the VA staff over the past week in response to the horrendous terrorist activity that occurred in New

York and in Washington. Not only have our staff in Washington

and in New York City been working around the clock to overcome

the events of last week but VA staff from around the country have

stepped up and volunteered to work wherever they can.

We have a particular contribution to make to this Nation, as you

have recognized, in trauma counseling, and we are ready to step

forward to provide that counseling not only to veterans but in this

time of need to the Nation.

With that, I am also pleased to be here to comment on H.R.

2716, the Homeless Veterans Assistance Act, the Act of 2001.

On the whole, VA supports H.R. 2716. However, with respect to

some provisions, we recommend modifications consistent with the

goals of the legislation or else seek the committee’s further clarification of the proposals.

Today I would like to briefly go over the main provisions of the

bill and provide the VA’s views on these provisions. We support

each of the proposed amendments in Section 3 of the bill, as they

would significantly simplify and improve administration of VA’s

grants and per diem program. However, we suggest the recovery

provision be patterned more closely after the recapture provisions

applicable to VA’s State Home Grant Program.

We would suggest recovery levels under Section 3 depend on

when a grant recipient ceases to use the grant-funded property for

the benefit of homeless veterans. It should also include language

that would allow the United States to recapture used and unused

grant funds from grantees where the grant funds have not been

used for the purpose of homeless grant agreements.

We further suggest that the rate of the per diem payments permitted under the grants and per diem program be 85 percent of the

domiciliary per diem rate paid to State Homes. This equates more

closely to the actual costs of providing service.

However, we would recommend that we be able to make per

diem payments under the program at less than the 85 percent rate

where payment at the 85 percent rate would in fact exceed the

grantee’s actual costs. This would gave VA the flexibility to ensure

that per diem funded programs have sufficient resources, while ensuring that the VA is not paying more than the grantees’ actual

costs.

New Section 2011 would continue to require that the real property of grant recipients meet fire and safety requirements established by the Secretary and not those applicable to buildings of the

Federal Government. We recommend that this provision be modified to require grantee recipients to meet the fire and safety requirements established by the LifeSafety Code, National Fire Protection Association Standard 101, or any successor standard. These

standards are widely accepted as national standards for fire and

safety protection.

Section 4 would amend Section 8 of the Housing Act to require

HUD to set aside Section 8 housing vouchers for homeless veterans. We fully support this amendment.
10

Section 5 would add a new section to 2035 Title 38 to require the

Secretary to seek to enter into contracts with community agencies

to provide representative payee services for homeless veterans who

are not competent to manage their own personal funds.

This section is problematic. To the extent that this provision is

intended to cover VA benefits of any type, it would seem to conflict

with existing and very detailed programs for the disbursement of

benefits to VA-appointed fiduciaries under 38 USC 55, et seq., and

38 CFR part 13.

Under part 13, VA provides for the appointment, supervision and

regulation of fiduciaries for incompetent veterans. We have assumed that the term ‘‘not competent’’ in this section is intended to

mean those whom VA would determine are not able to manage

their own funds under VA’s fiduciary program in part 13. If that

is the case, we cannot support this provision. We recommend that

the committee clarify the meaning of the term ‘‘not competent’’ for

purposes of this section.

To the extent the provision would apply to a veteran’s funds not

derived from VA benefits, we assume the committee intends that

VA condition participation in VA’s programs for homeless veterans

on a veteran’s acceptance of the representative payee services.

We do not support Section 6, which would require the Secretary

of Veterans’ Affairs and the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development to jointly establish a methodology to monitor veterans who

have been furnished any service under a VA of HUD program that

provides assistance to homeless veterans and to identify any unmet

demand by such veterans, because the scope and magnitude of the

proposed study in this section in our view is well beyond the ability

of either department to carry out. We would prefer to work with

the committee to identify more feasible means of achieving the

goals of this section.

Section 7 would modify various current enhanced-use authority

with respect to how we selected lessees for enhanced-use leases. We

believe our contract authority already provided this flexibility to

us.

Section 8 would authorize the Secretary to establish up to 10

more domiciliary programs. It would authorize appropriations of $5

million for each of fiscal years 2003 and 2004.

While we support the program, we believe the provisions in this

section are unnecessary because we already have sufficient authority to carry this out.

Section 9 would require the Secretary of Veterans’ Affairs and

the Secretary of Labor to carry out a demonstration project to determine the costs and benefits of providing referral, vocational

guidance and counseling services to certain veterans regarding the

benefits and services available to them within the VA and the

State. We support this initiative.

Section 10, sir—may I finish my statement?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Dr. MURPHY. Section 10 would require VA to carry out a grant

program for non-profit entities providing independent housing

units in group houses for veterans recovering from alcohol and

other substance abuse disorders.
11

We do not believe that this grant program is necessary. Existing

authority in 38 USC 1771 already permits us to obtain treatment

and rehabilitative services in halfway houses and community treatment facilities. In effect, this program would authorize us to obtain

the same services through an elaborate and difficult-to-administer

grant program. We anticipate the program would cost as much to

operate as the benefits that are provided.

Mr. Chairman, I would now like to address other pending legislation related to VA benefits for homeless veterans.

As you know, this summer we presented to the committee our official views on H.R. 936, a bill entitled the Heather French Homeless Veterans Assistance Act. In July of 2001 we provided testimony before the Senate on an identical version of the bill, S. 739.

Our positions on those bills’ identical provisions remain unchanged at this time. For your convenience, my written statement

reiterates our official views on these two bills. However, I would

like to point out in August the Senate Veterans’ Affairs Committee

ordered reported an amended version of S. 739. The bill generally

eliminated provisions to which the Department had voiced concerns. Accordingly, we favor this bill over the House version of that

bill.

Mr. Chairman, that ends my statement. I want to reiterate our

support of quality veterans’ programs, particularly homeless veterans’ programs and the provisions of this important legislation. I

would be glad to answer any questions that you or any of the members have.

[The prepared statement of Dr. Murphy appears on p. 141.]

The CHAIRMAN. Secretary Bernardi.

STATEMENT OF HON. ROY A. BERNARDI

Mr. BERNARDI. Good afternoon, Chairman Smith, Ranking Members and other distinguished Members of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs.

This morning, when I left the house, our son Dante, who is 10

years old said, ‘Daddy, what is your day like?’

‘‘Well, I am speaking in front of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs concerning homelessness for veterans.’’

And he said to me, ‘‘that is really important.’’ He is absolutely

right. As I look at my children and I think as we look at all of our

families, especially our youngsters and how they dealt with or are

dealing with what occurred here on September 11, our hearts and

our thoughts must go to our military people.

As we speak here this afternoon, they are on ships and they are

in airplanes; they are heading east. And tonight, the President of

the United States is going to outline, in some detail, what our future will be.

But I know full well, having only been in Washington for 2

months, this is my city now, and watching what happened at the

Pentagon, having left New York where I was Mayor of the City of

Syracuse until 2 months ago, and watching my good friend Rudolph Giuliani deal with the devastation in New York, we have

some very difficult days ahead of us. As for the men and woman

who serve in our Armed Forces—what a task they have ahead of

them. We are all involved in this fight. It goes across party lines.
12

Everyone is, I hope, thinking the same thing: radicate these terrorists and restore some normalcy in our lives.

This Nation owes its veterans a tremendous debt for the sacrifices that have been made. They have made America strong and

able to take on its aggressors. When a veteran joins the military,

the Federal Government makes a contract with them that they will

be cared for, and that is a promise that the Government will keep.

Veterans who need our help must know that we will not turn our

back on them.

For more than a half century, predating the creation of HUD

itself, the Federal Government has worked specifically to meet the

housing needs of this Nation’s veterans. After World War II, HUD’s

Federal Housing Administration’s mortgage insurance teamed up

with the Department of Veterans Affairs and their mortgage guarantees to help returning veterans achieve the American dream of

home ownership.

At least 600,000 people in this Country are homeless on any

given night. The VA estimates that more than a quarter million

are veterans; and, of those, approximately 80 percent are disabled.

During the course of each year approximately half a million veterans find themselves without a home.

Many of these veterans have special needs or face extreme personal circumstances that propel them in and out of homelessness.

Many have nowhere to go except back out on the street. They are

unable to access homeless shelters or traditional housing. Their

lives are revolving doors that again and again return them to

homelessness.

Last July, in a speech before the National Alliance to End Homelessness, Secretary Martinez endorsed the goal of investing in a

permanent solution to end chronic homelessness within 10 years.

[The Bush administration is reactivating the Interagency Council

on the Homeless as a first step.]

This Council was first established in 1987 to help streamline

Washington’s approach to homelessness by coordinating the efforts

of 16 Federal agencies. Yet the Council has not met for more than

5 years. We are putting it back together. We are going to have the

planning and coordination of the Federal housing programs. We are

going to reduce the duplication, recommend improvements and

offer assistance to our partners at the community level. This must

be a team approach.

VA, of course, is a primary resource for homeless veterans, and

we commend the Secretary for the exceptional service that they

provide. HUD and VA share a number of cross-cutting responsibilities. For example, both agencies maintain separate programs that

provide housing and supportive services to veterans. With a new

emphasis on cooperation, we pledge to better coordinate with our

counterparts at VA and other Federal agencies in order to serve

the homeless veteran population more effectively and efficiently.

Working with national service organizations, HUD, in 1997, established HUDVET, a resource center for veterans through which

we provide information on community-based programs and services, with an emphasis on veterans who are homeless. At the suggestion of veterans groups, an individual with special knowledge of
13

veterans’ needs—who is himself a combat-disabled Vietnam veteran—oversees the HUDVET program.

That is Bill Pittman, our Director. He is with us here today.

On homeless assistance, HUD has the leading role in finding

homes for the homeless, and that is appropriate. We have 36 years

of experience in helping Americans find safe and affordable shelter.

[HUD’s homeless funding represents nearly three-fourths of all targeted McKinney Federal homeless assistance.]

The veterans assistance projects funded by HUD fall into one of

two categories: those projects that primarily serve veterans and

those projects that target veterans as one of any number of key

populations to be served.

In 2000, HUD funded 68 projects targeted specifically to veterans

and another 1,300 plus projects that served veterans among other

groups. Based on the grantee reports submitted to HUD for 1999,

HUD’s homeless assistance programs served more than 160,000

homeless veterans.

HUD continues to reach out to help veterans’ organizations in

our grant applications by stressing the importance of serving veterans. In both the 2001 Continuum of Care Notice of Funding of

Availability and the 2001 Continuum of Care application, applicants are asked to consider veterans when determining the groups

they will serve.

In fiscal year 2002, there is a total of $1 billion requested for

Homeless assistance grants and shelter plus care renewals.

Now there are major programs—I know my time is up.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. BERNARDI. We have the Shelter Plus Care, our Section 8

Moderate Rehabilitation and our Emergency Shelter Grants

Programs.

Back in Syracuse, we used those Emergency Shelter Grants very,

very effectively to take people and veterans off the street on a daily

basis.

When it comes to Veterans Affairs, HUD administers a number

of other programs that reach out to veterans and their families.

They include HOME Investment Partnerships, Community Development Block Grants, Homeownership of Single-Family Homes and

the Section 8 Homeownership Program, Lower-Income Rental Assistance, Section 202 Supportive Housing for the Elderly, Section

811 Supportive Housing for Persons with Disabilities, and the FHA

Mortgage Insurance Programs.

The Department has initiated an effort to develop and disseminate information based on organizations serving the homeless

veterans.

In the coming years, HUD will make the goals of preventing

homelessness and ending chronic homelessness as high a priority

as that of housing the already homeless. We can do this by ensuring that individuals who pass through mainstream social services—

such as mental health, welfare and the criminal justice systems, as

was mentioned earlier—do not move back into homelessness as we

administer these programs.

I, along with Secretary Martinez, pledge to you all of our efforts,

working with the VA and other organizations, to do everything that
14

we can to eradicate homelessness in our country. The chronically

homeless are out there each and every day.

We look forward to working together with the Members of this

Committee and our partners in the Federal Government, and I

thank you very much for your leadership and the members of this

Committee for the opportunity to be here.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Assistant Secretary

Bernardi.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Bernardi appears on p. 176.]

The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate both of your testimonies.

I could start with you, Secretary Bernardi.

For the sake of the record, perhaps you might want to make

some comments on it specifically as to how you feel about H.R.

2716. I think it is very important that we get HUD’s perspective

very clearly on the record with regards to each section.

I appreciated the overall roster you gave us about HUD programs, and we often hear that some of HUD’s programs for the

homeless do filter down or trickle down to reach the veteran.

Linda, I think makes a good point as the Executive Director of

the National Coalition For Homeless Veterans, when she pointed

out that historically only 3 percent of these grants—talking about

the SLP grants—are awarded to veteran-specific programs. Three

percent, when a quarter of the homeless are veterans.

And you point out in your testimony that there are 160,000

homeless veterans. I thank you for your honesty in pointing out

that some are double and perhaps triple or quadruple counted. We

don’t know. It is not delineated in your testimony that we seem to

be reaching far less of those veterans than we ought to, notwithstanding the efforts by the VA.

So if you could provide that and maybe give some response to

that 3 percent of grants either for the record or today to us.

Mr. BERNARDI. Well, Mr. Chairman, everything is on the table at

HUD as we go through our budgetary process. I know the Secretary feels very strongly about this, but at this point in time, I

can’t give any more information on that particular bill.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me go to Dr. Murphy, if I may. On page 10

of your testimony you tell us that the provision authorizing VA for

domiciliaries is unnecessary. How many new VA domiciliaries do

you have planned and where are they?

Before we worked on drafting this bill, we have had some good

consultation with the VA as to the efficacy rate of those who have

gone through the domiciliary and how well off they are at the end

of that process vis-a-vis other modalities that may be used to try

to help our homeless veterans. I mean, why wouldn’t you want this

additional resource when we are awash in homeless veterans who

need the kind of services a domiciliary can provide?

Dr. MURPHY. We do believe that the domiciliary is an effective

way to provide care. The statistics on the outcomes for homeless

veterans who have been in the domiciliary programs are very good.

A direct comparison between the effectiveness of domiciliary programs and the effectiveness of our other homeless programs is difficult because there may be some bias introduced by the selection

criteria. We have very stringent selection criteria for the domiciliary programs and haven’t been able to sort out how much that
15

affects their results. We do support the domiciliary care for homeless programs. As you will note, in our 2002 budget, we requested a $1.4 million

increase in the Homeless Veterans Program funding, all funding

for 2002 was requested at $36 million.

The CHAIRMAN. Would it be fair to characterize that as a benign

objection? You think it is unnecessary, but you are not against it?

Dr. MURPHY. We believe that we have the authority to establish

these programs and don’t feel that the provision is necessary. But

I would agree with your characterization that it is a benign disagreement.

The CHAIRMAN. But are you at the planning stage for any new

domiciliaries?

Dr. MURPHY. I don’t know that for——

The CHAIRMAN. Get back to us.

You are concerned about our proposed changes for lease authority and state that you already have sufficient authority and can use

the authority to establish homeless programs for veterans. Can you

tell us how many of these the VA has done under this authority,

where these facilities are located, and describe the kinds of services

that they provided?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Mr. Chairman, there are several enhanced use

leases that have been done by the VA. Two that come to mind, one

is in Vancouver campus and one is at Roseburg in Oregon. Both of

those enhanced use leases are ones that are involved with public

housing authorities. Being homeless is one of those conditions by

which I might get into that housing.

There are several enhanced use leases that are pending before

the Department in several areas that I am familiar with, but they

have not yet been approved.

The CHAIRMAN. Have any of those been done within the last year

or two?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. The program at Roseburg just opened—had its

formal opening.

The CHAIRMAN. When was the actual lease?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. When did it begin?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. DOUGHERTY. The process began about 3 years ago.

The CHAIRMAN. Would that be the most recent?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, except for the ones that I am indicating

are still in the works today.

The CHAIRMAN. Would your opposition be soft or hard?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Depends on who you ask.

Dr. MURPHY. Again, we believe that we have the authority to do

this. And by specifying in legislation this authority, we think it

proves it is confusing to the program. We believe we already exercise this authority very well in the enhanced use leases that are

currently under development.

The CHAIRMAN. I ask the indulgence of my colleagues, if they go

over their five, within some parameter we can add extra time to

you.

But one question, and it is an important one. The Secretary testified before this committee in March of this year that the agency

had almost completed the steps needed to begin making loans for
16

transitional housing programs for homeless vets. This program was

enacted by the Congress and signed by the President almost 3

years ago.

In the Secretary’s statements he said the VA hoped to, and I

quote, to be able to issue the RFPs before the end of the fiscal year.

Obviously, that is September 30. We have recently been advised

that the agency has not completed the steps outlined in the March

testimony. In addition, there is evidence of footdragging and indecisiveness about how best to implement this program.

I would like to ask you to convey to the Secretary my request

that he review the management of this program, and could you advise the committee why the agency was apparently unable to complete implementation by the date stated in the March testimony?

Dr. MURPHY. We are very disappointed that we have not been

able to implement this program in 3 years.

Unfortunately, in the beginning of the calendar year 2001, we

were awaiting approval for a waiver for a hundred percent guarantee of the loans. Once we obtained that waiver, we have proceeded

quickly through negotiations with our contractor. The issuer of the

loans will be the Federal Finance Bank.

We did complete negotiations with the contractor on the purchase order, and we believe that the contractor will be able to complete their tasks 2 and 3 by the beginning of calendar year 2002.

We expect that the request for proposals will be submitted at the

beginning of the 2002 calendar year and that the RFPs will close

about 6 to 7 months after that.

We apologize for the delay. The administration of this program

has been more difficult than we had anticipated, but we are moving

out briskly.

I have met with the contractors personally, as I know the Secretary has; and we are anxious to implement this program.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

The Chair recognize Mr. Evans.

Mr. EVANS. Dr. Murphy, could you explain to us why the VA opposes providing a $5.40 a day increase for food and drug centers

for homeless veterans? That is an increase of $5.40 per day to provide food and shelter to homeless veterans.

VA seems to suggest that this amount is too great, given the differences in services provided by community-based organizations

versus State domiciliaries. Is there any evidence to support this

assumption?

Dr. MURPHY. We felt that 85 percent of the State home per diem

rate would adequately reimburse the grantees; and, you know, we

feel that to make best use of our appropriated dollars we should

not be paying more for the services than the actual cost of those

services.

Mr. EVANS. Is that 85 percent based on any data that you have

accumulated?

Dr. MURPHY. It is based on what we know of the cost of the per

diem in the current contracts.

Mr. EVANS. Have you recently gone to a domiciliary home?

Dr. MURPHY. Have I recently gone out to some of—the grants per

diem sites? I have been to programs recently, yes, sir.
17

Mr. EVANS. Okay. My bill proposes funding for technical assistance to community-based organizations, including faith-based organizations. I understand the VA opposes this. Can you tell us what

the basis of your opposition is?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Mr. Evans, I think the opposition of the Department is based on the fact that in the present cycle we have about

$10 million available. We are providing under the grants and per

diem program funds for new grants. It seems to us that $750,000

is an extraordinary amount to spend to get assistance to write

grants when we have more than enough applicants who are applying for funding than we are able to fund under the present scenario. To divert some of the money from the actual implementation

of new programs to give people more information about how to

apply didn’t seem to be a high priority.

Mr. EVANS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Evans.

The Chair recognizes the chairman of the Benefits Subcommittee, the distinguished gentleman, Mr. Simpson.

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you very much.

Dr. Murphy, in response to the chairman’s question you said that

the administration of the program you have been referring to is

more difficult to administer than you anticipated and consequently

you were behind. Why is that?

Dr. MURPHY. The loan guarantee program for multifamily transitional housing is a type of loan program that VA did not have a

lot of experience in administering. We hired a contractor who has

been working very effectively with us, but, again, one of the keys

to the effectiveness of this program was getting the waiver and approval for the 100 percent guarantee of the loans. We felt that the

program would not be successful without that, and unfortunately

we were not able to obtain that until February of 2001. Since then,

we have moved ahead as quickly as we can, and we will be getting

the RFPs out at the beginning of the next calendar year.

Mr. SIMPSON. Why was it difficult to get the waiver?

Dr. MURPHY. We needed the support of OMB and others in the

administration, and they felt that there were other ways to approach this program. We ultimately convinced them of the importance of the 100 percent guarantee to the success of the program,

and now we are moving forward.

Mr. SIMPSON. I guess the thing that is frustrating is when it

takes 3 years to institute something and we are trying to do something to address this issue of homeless veterans and so forth and

we pass legislation and we anticipate that it is going to be acted

on and then it takes 3 years to get it moving, it seems like a bureaucratic mess, if you will, to try to get anything done. I don’t

blame that on you. I don’t know if it is our fault, your fault. What

can we do to actually get something in place to work?

Dr. MURPHY. I share your frustration over this because the program, I believe, will add to our ability to address the needs of

homeless veterans, and we would be happy to work with you and

committee staff in trying to correct any future programs that are

set up so that we don’t run into some of these snaffus.

Mr. SIMPSON. I think that is one of the key things we need to

do is look at, between the administration and us, of ways to
18

streamline this so it is not something that the veterans are expecting that we are going to do. We pass something and then we all

do press on it and we find out 3 years later that it is not happening

because of us or you or a combination or both. And I don’t want

to throw the blame on you. We sometimes pass things that are a

little difficult to do.

One example here is I noticed in Section 6 of H.R. 2716 that

would require you to establish methodology to monitor veterans

who have been furnished any service under the VA or HUD program that provides assistance to homeless veterans and to identify

any unmet demands by such veterans. That sounds like a good

thing, but you also said it would be a complex, massive and costly

administrative undertaking. The goal that we are trying to do is

get information to help us make decisions. Any idea on how to

make it a less costly, complex, and massive way?

Dr. MURPHY. We can collect portions of that information without

too much difficulty. In order to address the scope of the data collection and the monitoring that is written into this piece of legislation,

we estimate that it would cost $1,000 per veteran per year to actually collect this type of information. VA treats about 88,000 veterans, and so the costs of just this portion of the bill is estimated at

upwards of $88 million. I don’t think that that is really what the

committee intended. However, we would like to work with you in

developing better data and better monitoring systems for these

programs.

We do recognize that it is a priority, and we would be happy to

tell you what we can do easily and work together towards improving our data system for the future.

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you for your testimony. I look forward to

working with you to try to improve this, and I anticipate that the

people that work at the VA are like this committee, that we would

like to see a can-do attitude and find ways to get this done, rather

than ways to not get it done, if you will. So I look forward to working with you. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Chairman Simpson. Mr. Rodriguez.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Dr. Murphy, as we talk about VA services for the homeless—and

I am real pleased to see this legislation because I think it is really

needed, I think we need to touch also on another issue. We have

heard testimony in the past from the VA that since 1995 they have

been able to cut 50 percent of the beds in some areas. In addition,

we have received testimony from others that, because of the lack

of inpatient beds, veterans suffering from substance abuse and addiction have been turned out.

So in addition to implementing any new programs outlined in

this bill, the VA needs to adopt a philosophy that is a little more

responsive to this population. I want to get some feedback because

I know we must have told a whole bunch of homeless veterans,

sorry, we don’t have a place for you. Do we have any data on that,

on the number of people that we turned away because the number

of substance abuse slots was decreased?

Dr. MURPHY. I am not aware that we have been turning veterans

away for substance——
19

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. You are aware that we have cut down on the

number of beds, right——

Dr. MURPHY. That is correct.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ (continuing). From 95 to 50 percent. Many have

argued that because of this we prevented a lot of homeless veterans

from accessing the necessary services to treat addiction.

Dr. MURPHY. Substance abuse is a large problem for veterans

and particularly for homeless veterans, and we have been disappointed that again this year the capacity report shows that we

have not met the 1996 capacity requirement for substance abuse.

We will be focusing attention within the Veterans Health Administration on our substance abuse programs, number one, trying to

understand better what veterans needs are, and the regional differences in the programs. We would like to have consistently available high-quality programs in this area. That will be a focus for us

over the next year.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. That is important, but it is also important to

have VA providers with a good, positive attitude. Because I know

it is hard to work with the homeless, especially those that are drug

addicts or are mentally ill, it is important to have a special type

of worker that gets out of that office and reaches out to those veterans who may live under bridges or on the streets.

Dr. MURPHY. I am actually particularly proud of the staff we

have working in the homeless programs. I think they are some of

the most dedicated——

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Those that you have there, I would agree have

to be because they have to be special to work in that area. I am

just concerned we don’t have enough of those special people and

that we might have some others who are turning people away.

Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Rodriguez.

I see Ms. Berkley has left. Dr. Snyder.

Mr. SNYDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Dr. Murphy, what is your assessment of the cost of these two

bills respectively?

Dr. MURPHY. We believe that the difference in cost for the—that

at $19 per day for the per diem program, the cost would be about

$18 million. At the $24 a day, it is up over $23 million. The difference in cost would be $5 million between our proposal and the

current bill proposal.

Mr. SNYDER. I am asking about the total cost for the two respective bills, H.R. 936 and H.R. 2716.

Dr. MURPHY. I don’t have the total cost figure. There were portions of the bill that we actually could not give very good cost

measures for because we needed some clarification on exactly what

the bills proposed. However, if you would like VA to try to clarify

those points with committee staff and give you a cost estimate for

the overall bill, we will do that in the near future.

Mr. SNYDER. Are you all potentially alarmed by the cost of the

bills, or do you think they are in the ballpark of what you all can

handle?

Dr. MURPHY. I think that the cost particularly for the methodology and the study of services furnished for homeless veterans concerns me. I think that provision won’t give us the benefits for the
20

magnitude of cost that would be incurred for it. So I would like to

see that provision be revised significantly or deleted from the bill.

Some of the other costs are not so high.

I would just say that I am concerned about additional unfunded

mandates for 2002 because we are going into a year where I expect

that the budget is already extremely tight and if we have additional requirements for DOD contingency backup we may not be

able to meet those demands.

I think that some of the costs, again, we could cover through efficiencies that we could gain from our other programs. So I think

that, you know, with the deletion of some of the provisions that we

have opposed, the costs are not exorbitant for this bill.

Mr. SNYDER. On page 12 you made some comments about this

grant program for nonprofit entities for these group houses. I interpret your analysis there to be beyond benign objection. You just

don’t think it is a very good idea?

Dr. MURPHY. That is correct.

Mr. SNYDER. It has some very specific criteria in these programs.

The majority vote by the residents controls the rules. Somebody

has obviously seen the program somewhere and wants to fund

more of them, but then the total amount of grant money is very

small. Your point is that the administrative aspects of it would

probably have pretty minimal impact, I would think?

Dr. MURPHY. We don’t believe that this will add to our authority

to provide these services for veterans, and it will—because of the

additional administrative cost incurred we will end up spending

money on administering a program rather than delivering services

to homeless veterans, and that is the reason for our opposition.

Mr. SNYDER. Are you currently administering grants to programs

that have no more than 10 veterans, or do you intend to provide

services to programs that have larger numbers than that?

Dr. MURPHY. We don’t have any grants of that size.

Mr. SNYDER. I want to come back to your comments, I think it

was from the chairman about the domiciliary, the conversation you

had about Roseburg and so on, and you described your objections

as benign. Is what you were saying that, while the numbers look

good on those kinds of programs, in fact you would like the discretion to use the dollars you have available because it may well be

there are other programs that are just as effective that may in fact

deal with even more difficult-to-treat homeless veterans because

domiciliaries have a self-selection process? Is basically what you

are asking for, give us some flexibility to come up with the programs that best meet the needs of the geographic area? I am not

sure what you were saying.

Dr. MURPHY. We believe that the health care for homeless veterans contracts, the domiciliaries and the grants and per diem programs should be blended based on the medical needs and the local

requirements for health care; and the domiciliary programs are

more expensive per capita than either the grants and per diem program or the HCH fee programs.

Mr. SNYDER. Before my time is up, you brought up the topic of

this study, and I always get a little apprehensive when I see legislated mandated studies. I know that you all are concerned about

the delivery and the effectiveness of delivery of health care serv-
21

ices, particularly when you are dealing with areas of social service

needs combined with health needs, homelessness—medical needs

combined with drug addictions and alcohol addictions is a bad combination. If you throw in schizophrenic with drug abuse, it is a real

challenge.

Do you have ongoing studies that you are looking at with the

chairman, the sponsors to try to get at?

Dr. MURPHY. We are trying to address this with our Health Services Research Program and through MIREC, our Mental Illness Research Education Centers. We believe that we can do those studies

through those existing mechanisms without the legislation.

Mr. SNYDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Would the gentleman yield?

Mr. SNYDER. I will yield all my remaining time to you, Mr.

Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. VISN’s 11 and 19 don’t have a domiciliary program. Aren’t there sufficient justifications for having such a program there?

Dr. MURPHY. We can look into the reasons for their not having

domiciliary programs and provide the information for the record.

The CHAIRMAN. I appreciate that. Dr. Filner—Mr. Filner.

Mr. FILNER. I have always been doctor.

Dr. Murphy, have you been to any of the standdowns that are

been held around the country?

Dr. MURPHY. I have not been to the standdowns, but I have visited all of the facilities in the Washington area that VA has for

homeless veterans.

Mr. FILNER. I would advise you to go. The first standdown was

held in San Diego, I think in 1987, and I have been to every one

in San Diego. And I will tell you I give the standard speech ever

since standdown number 10 or so, which says I hope I don’t have

to come back to another one. The energy there, the incredible sense

of purpose, the sense of caring, the community coming together is

wonderful, but what the standdowns show is that we can deal with

this problem as a Nation. People come together and meet the total

needs of homeless people, whether it is job counseling, medical

care, legal problems, clothing, counseling. And for 3 days people are

brought together, and they actually deal with the real issues, and

it is just incredibly moving to see what occurs.

But I am saying, what happens to the other 363 days of the

year? We can do this as a Nation, we can do this as a VA, and yet

I don’t see the taking up of this challenge. These are our veterans

on the street. This should not stand, and we should be angry, we

should be jumping up and down and get out of some of the bureaucratic language that we use, and you should be demanding the resources that are needed to deal with this problem. Don’t tell us you

don’t have enough, but demand that we provide you with what you

need.

I am going to pick one part of your testimony that I cannot understand. You testified that you oppose the provision of dental care

services. Now, I think we all underestimate, until we have been to

a standdown, dental care. Most of us take for granted our smiles.

I venture to say that Miss America would not be Miss America

without that wonderful smile. Would you agree with me?
22

Folks who don’t have dental care for a long period of time cannot

deal with society. Forget everything else. If you are afraid to open

your mouth, if you don’t have the confidence that you can deal with

other people by talking and smiling and engaging in human activity, you are dead as far as the social aspects. I see people in the

audience nodding their heads in agreement. Your own challenge report says we ought to provide dental care.

One of the key things I see happening when the folks get some

attention, they come out. They walk taller. They can smile. It is incredible. And yet you oppose it. I don’t understand that at all. I

don’t think you would in the abstract. And your reason that you

oppose it is not even lack of resources, it is that it would result in

a disparity of access among equally deserving veterans. Hello? Because we can’t do everything for everybody we should not do it for

somebody that absolutely, critically needs it?

It is so important as part of a full range of care, and besides, if

you use that argument, then we would do nothing for anybody. I

would say let’s get every deserving veteran dental care but not

deny it to this group of folks.

Do you want to comment on any of that?

Dr. MURPHY. I would love to.

The VA would like to provide everything every veteran needs in

terms of both medical care and dental care, but we have some limitations that are budgetary in nature and other limitations in authority. We don’t provide dental care to every veteran who is enrolled in our system. This provision required us to provide dental

care to all homeless veterans and some with mental health

problems.

We think a better proposal would be to provide dental care that

is medically necessary for those homeless veterans who are enrolled in our rehabilitation programs so that it is part of a package

of treatment that we provide. There are any number of very deserving veterans who don’t get eligibility for dental services they

need, and so we would recommend a revision to that provision.

Mr. FILNER. I find that very disconcerting, and I also find it very,

I guess, symbolic of the response here. That is, because we can’t

do it for all groups we are not going to do it for this group. We have

a particularly vulnerable and a particularly morally obnoxious situation that his should not stand in this Nation. People who have

served in our Armed Forces are on the streets. It is pure and simple. We should eliminate this. And it seems to me that we should

find every reason to do it, as opposed to finding every reason not

to do it; and until you all have that attitude I am very pessimistic

that we are going to be dealing with this in a way we should.

You should be at those standdowns, Dr. Murphy. I can’t believe

that in 14 years of this kind of thing you never have seen one. It

doesn’t seem like you get out of the building that you work in because you don’t seem to be aware of what is going on in reality.

I find that very upsetting, and I am sorry I have to say that.

But this Congress is going to work on this. I know this chairman

and our ranking member have been committed to this. There are

people around the country that are going to commit to this. We are

going to do this in spite of some of the folks at the VA because our

veterans deserve it, and we are going to do it.
23

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Filner.

Before recognizing Mr. Simmons, Mr. Evans has an additional

follow-up.

Mr. EVANS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

On July 21, the Washington Post reported Secretary Martinez—

I am sorry, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Okay. Mr. Simmons.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. ROB SIMMONS

Mr. SIMMONS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I think what we have before us today is a Hobson’s choice or a

series of good choices. We basically have two good bills with a

common purpose, and the common purpose is to help homeless

veterans.

I happen to be an original cosponsor of H.R. 2716, and I will just

briefly give out a couple of things that I think are important about

this bill. I am a Vietnam veteran, and I have dealt a lot with Vietnam veterans, and it is my opinion that a homeless veteran who

has mental difficulties, mental illness, really can’t be at home in

a house if he is not at home in his own head. So that is a very important feature of this type of legislation. The provision of housing

in and of itself is not good enough, especially for those who have

mental illness or substance abuse.

So H.R. 2716 addresses that issue. It addresses the issue that

you can put a veteran in a home or housing and yet, if you don’t

track him or have a case manager, the other issues are eventually

going to put him back out in the street.

So, again, the idea of having increasing case managers is critical.

That is what I call the hand up instead of just the handout. The

tracking, some of these issues come and go, so you have to keep

track of your veterans. If you lose him out at one facility, is there

some way of picking him up at another location? It not only serves

the veteran better but I think it saves costs within the system.

Finally, because I hope we merge these two bills in some respects, let me speak briefly on the issue of dental health care. I

spent 10 years in the Connecticut General Assembly on the Public

Safety Committee, and I toured a lot of prisons. One of the things

that happens with prisoners is they get dental health care. They

get in some of those prisons better dental care than I get at my

family dentist. In those instances I don’t think we are necessarily

preparing to find them a job, which is one of the caveats here, and

we are probably not giving them the dental care so that they can

smile and interact. If we can provide dental care to our prisoners,

why can’t we provide dental care to our veterans?

I was late to the meeting because I was speaking on the defense

authorization bill which is up on the floor. We are in the process,

due to the events last week, of creating a whole new group of veterans, the veterans of Operation Just Cause, and that is going to be

an expensive proposition for our country. So when I look at—see

and hear that perhaps the difference between these two bills is $5

million and I know that billions were authorized for this terrible

attack and billions more will be forthcoming from our Treasury, I

think these dollars are relatively inconsequential. If we don’t honor

our veterans today, we won’t have veterans in the future.
24

I think that is a fundamental imperative of our country, to provide for the national defense, which is a constitutional obligation.

So, that being said, I would hope that the panelists and others

would help us to move forward perhaps with a combined version

of these two bills, taking the best from each and carrying it forward.

Thank you all very much. I would be happy to hear any comments, if you have any.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you want to respond?

Dr. MURPHY. I would just say that the budgetary impact of the

provisions in this bill are not inconsequential, and to implement

them in 2002 as an unfunded mandate will mean that we will have

to balance that against other programs, meaning there will be cuts

in other areas. If that is the will of this committee, we will do that.

Mr. SIMMONS. We have discussed other—do I still have time, Mr.

Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Sure.

Mr. SIMMONS. We have discussed other issues before this committee, and one of the issues that always puzzled me was some of

the duplication of effort that we have within the VA. If a veteran

goes to a doctor and gets scrip and goes to the VA, he has to visit

another doctor, make an appointment, and go through that whole

process once again. I just think there are ways of accomplishing

these tasks, and if we have the right attitude we can do it.

I think that these problems are not as big as we might think, but

we have to have a positive attitude, just the way in the past many

veterans have had a positive attitude about what they have had to

accomplish in their tasks in their service, not only in this country

but abroad—a can-do attitude. That is what makes this country

great and what makes veterans great people, and that is what

should characterize the VA. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Simmons. Mr. Evans.

Mr. EVANS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

On July 21, Secretary Bernardi, referring to an interagency council on the homeless, said it is time to reawaken this valuable tool

and put it back to work. The council will have a staff director by

next week and a budget of $5,000, HUD officials said. Since these

comments on July 20, has HUD activated an interagency council

on homeless? How many times has it met? Who is the director and

what is the budget for the council? What are the Federal resources

that will be required to end homelessness in 10 years?

Despite HUD’s strategy to end chronic homelessness in 10 years,

how much will the Federal Government need to spend to achieve

this goal? Does the President share your commitment to ending

homeless in a decade? What is your definition of chronic homelessness?

Obviously this can be answered by putting it into the record, but

if if you’d like to respond now, please do.

Mr. BERNARDI. Chronic homelessness is defined by some as living

on the street, under a bridge, or in a park and basically is not in

a shelter for a period of time. Secretary Martinez and the Interagency Council on the Homeless, as I understand it, very soon will

be making an appointment for a director to that particular position;

and a budget is being formulated. I don’t have the amount of
25

money that is going to be requested, but I will get back to you on

that.

Mr. EVANS. That will be great; and I ask that the question and

its answer be included in the record, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection.

(The information follows:)

Interagency Council on the Homeless

The Fiscal Year 2002 Budget request for the Interagency Council on the Homeless

is $500,000.

The CHAIRMAN. The chairman of our Health Subcommittee, Jerry

Moran.

Mr. MORAN. No questions. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. The chair recognizes Ms. Carson.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JULIA CARSON

Ms. CARSON. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Let me be brief because the committee is going to have to go vote

pretty soon, but let me explain that, prior to coming to Congress,

I headed up a welfare agency and our emphasis was on homelessness. We would go out in subzero weather and find homeless people

and give them blankets and make sure they would eat. Because

some of them didn’t want to go into facilities.

Since I have been a member of Congress, I donated an apartment

building I had to the homeless veterans; and the Secretary of the

VA was out dedicating the homeless shelter that I had given because I wanted to do something, wanted to leave something for people who we can never repay for all they have done for us.

When I was coming into Dulles last night—I realized well before

then that we are creating a whole new cadre of veterans because

we have this catastrophe and we are going to be dealing with this.

So the rigors of war are so devastating, and I was proud that Congressman Simmons is here in Congress because I know a lot of

Vietnam veterans that don’t have the personna that he illustrates

here today in my ranking member veteran.

I come from a family of veterans, so that is why I am here. But

I am concerned especially when we talk about the cost of undergirding veterans and to do less than what they are asking for here

today means that a lot of those veterans end up in prison. I am

astounded at the number of veterans that we have who are incarcerated in prisons across this country as we speak, and it is far

more expensive to have a veteran incarcerated in a prison, up to

$40,000 a year, than it is to ensure the well-being of a veteran who

is not inside of a prison.

And I am unwilling to talk about cost. I think it is too costly if

we don’t. And I want to ask the HUD guy—I am sorry. I get emotional about this—Bernardi—I am sorry.

Mr. BERNARDI. That is okay.

Ms. CARSON. I really get upset when people talk about keeping

money from veterans. We owe it to them. We should not be trying

to decide how we are going to save money on the back of somebody

who saved us and preserved our freedom.
26

But the HUD-VASH program provides permanent housing to the

Section 8 voucher and ongoing treatment services under the VA

case management to the hardest-to-serve homeless mentally ill.

You do that?

We know in the marketplace that a lot of landlords don’t want

the amount of Section 8 vouchers that you provide for these kind

of clientele, and I was wondering if there are any plans to ensure

that we reduce the number of inadequate opportunities for housing

for veterans. If you were thinking about increasing the value of

vouchers so that veterans are not forced back into the shelters but

rather would be able to use the marketplace for——

Mr. BERNARDI. Madam Congresswoman, the HUD-VASH program in the early 1990s covered nearly 2,000 veterans, of which I

think most are still actively participating in the program. That was

a 10-year program, and it was renewed each and every year.

Presently, we are looking at whether we can support that in our

budget discussions. I agree we need to do what we can. Obviously,

we want to make sure that, in all of our programs, a significant

percentage of all our funded projects go to help veterans. The

homeless issue is pervasive throughout our society, but as we all

know there is a tremendous number of veterans who are homeless

on the street each and every day, and the HUD-VASH program is

just one away in which Housing and Urban Development works to

try to eradicate homelessness.

We will look at it and get back to you as soon as we can with

what our budget constraints are going to be.

(The information follows:)

HUD–VA Program

The Department is generally supportive of the proposals made in H.R. 2716 to the

extent that they address the on-going plight of homeless veterans who gave so much

for the preservation of our Nation. The Department takes very seriously its current

responsibilities under the McKinney-Vento Homeless Assistance Act to assist homeless Americans, including veterans, in locating appropriate supportive housing opportunities. As you know, the President signed the Homeless Veterans Comprehensive Assistance Act (Public Law 107–95) December 21, 2001. We will continue to implement all provisions of current law and will fully and effectively implement each

of the provisions of Public Law 107–95 applicable to HUD.

Ms. CARSON. I want to commend—Mr. Chairman, I see Heather

French, Miss America, is in the audience and I think Heather

French is the one that makes America beautiful because when she

was Miss America that was the project she took to undergird the

well-being of our veterans. It served her well because she got married to the Lieutenant Governor of Kentucky. So I want to congratulate her.

My final question, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Ranking Member, can

HUD enforce fair rent practices? Do you have that authority? Can

you enforce a fair rent market in the marketplace for your Section

8 vouchers ?

Mr. GARRITY. The fair——

Ms. CARSON. For example, if I was renting an apartment and everybody paid $300 a month—and that is not going to happen anywhere—and I knew I was going to get a Section 8 voucher, could
27

I charge $800 or do you enforce the fair rent practice, given the

marketplace at that particular time?

Mr. GARRITY. We pay the differential between 30 percent of the

person’s income and fair market rent for each community. That

changes each year, and we do enforce it. That is the amount on

which the value of the voucher is based.

Ms. CARSON. But you gauge on what others are paying without

the vouchers?

Mr. GARRITY. It depends on the rental cost in the area. The fair

market rent is based on a survey of the rental costs in that community so, yes, it varies by community, and it is much higher in New

York and San Francisco than it would be in Columbus, for

instance.

Ms. CARSON. But you enforce the fair market then on your

vouchers.

Mr. GARRITY. Yes.

Ms. CARSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me just ask, Mr. Bernardi, if you can get

back to us on the HUD-VASH program that Dr. Murphy has testified is a resounding success. We are looking at a double number,

but it is still a very small number we are talking about to get to

the 2000 Section 8 program units over a 3-year period. It seems

very modest to me. I don’t know what the full universe of Section

8s are. Maybe it is a million or something of that magnitude. What

is the number? Do you know?

Mr. GARRITY. I do not know the number——

The CHAIRMAN. But it is a very large number, to be sure.

Mr. GARRITY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And we are looking for a very small but not insignificant allocation that would be guaranteed and reserved for

our veterans because so many of them still obviously are falling

through the cracks.

I know Dr. Snyder had one follow-up question before saying

thank you to our panel.

Mr. SNYDER. Just one follow-up question about the line of

thought that Mr. Filner was preceding about, about dental care. As

I understood your thought, you said it would be better if it was

part of a program of rehabilitation. But as I read Section 12, it

seems like that is how that was drafted, that it had to be medically

necessary, moderate to severe pain, pretty bad stuff, plus they had

to be enrolled in one of your programs either directly administered

by veterans, by VHA or in a domiciliary or a contractor.

Dr. MURPHY. The grant and per diem program.

Mr. SNYDER. I am sorry?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Dr. Snyder, the provision as I recall had it that

if you were involved in any health care program for homeless veterans, which would include a grant per diem program. There is no

requirement under the grant per diem program that you would

have to have come through VA health care in order to be eligible

to get admitted.

Mr. SNYDER. So this provision that says a setting for which the

secretary provides funds for a grant and per diem provider, is that

the only provision in this section you all don’t like?
28

Dr. MURPHY. Yes. We believe that if a homeless veteran is enrolled in one of our VA rehabilitation programs and is getting a

package of medical care from VA that we should provide medically—we could provide medically needed dental care.

Mr. SNYDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your indulgence.

Mr. SIMPSON. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. SIMPSON. Since this has come up about four or five times

now and I am a dentist, I want you to know I have never seen any

dental care that wasn’t medically necessary. I only say that about

half jokingly. Sometimes we have a tendency to forget that we take

the teeth out and think they are something different than an eye

or an ear or a foot or a lung or whatever. They are part of the body

like anything else, and they ought to be treated that way.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for that very good observation.

I would like to thank our very distinguished panel. I have another six or so questions. Please get back to us as quickly as you

possibly can. I look forward to having your support for this legislation as we go forward.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to invite panel two, beginning with

Ms. Heather French Henry, Miss America 2000, who has been a

very staunch advocate of homeless veterans and has made that a

priority and has helped sensitize many Americans to the plight of

homeless veterans. She is joined by her husband, Lieutenant Governor Stephen Henry of Kentucky.

We also have Mr. John Kuhn, who is the chief of the VA New

Jersey Homeless Services and has done an outstanding job in the

State of New Jersey and has worked nonstop over the years to help

our homeless veterans—and we do have a sizable number of homeless veterans in New Jersey; Ms. Angela Gipson and Mr. Walter

McConnell.

STATEMENTS OF HEATHER FRENCH HENRY, MISS AMERICA

2000; JOHN KUHN, CHIEF, VA NEW JERSEY HOMELESS SERVICES; ACCOMPANIED BY ANGELA GIPSON AND WALTER

MCCONNELL

The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Henry, if you could begin your testimony, we

would appreciate it.

STATEMENT OF HEATHER FRENCH HENRY

Ms. HENRY. Thank you. It is great to be back to my home away

from home, it seems.

Chairman Smith and Ranking Member Evans, who is a great

friend, it is great to see you and all the other members of the committee. I appreciate your being able to hear us out.

It strikes me as be increasingly odd, by the way, that I hear statistics such as what was in the newspaper about H.R. 936 where

they were opposing the bill because we only have the facilities to

treat or to see 50,000 of what they said were 300,000 homeless veterans. That concerns me. That is a statistic that, as a Federal

agency, I would never want to put into the news media because

that is a statistic, as being formerly from the news media, I would
29

pick up on quickly and say we are inadequately offering services

to our veterans.

Each one of us here—and it is not just the committee members

but every woman, man, and child in this country has put a veteran

on the street. Why do I say that? We are constantly looking at

ways to blame a veteran for falling into homelessness. We are constantly blaming them for being in substance abuse circumstances

and for having mental health issues. The reality is there is a deeper issue than men self-medicating themselves and their nightmares

and night terrors, and that is we have sent them into the military.

They served us when we did not serve. We sent them into battle.

They saw things that we could only imagine in our worst nightmares, and that was their reality. So, in essence, each person in

this country has caused those thousands of veterans to be on the

streets.

How do I know this? Well, most of you know I am a daughter

of a disabled Vietnam veteran; and you heard my father’s story, his

prescription drug addiction when he came home from Vietnam that

led him to go into a homeless facility in Cincinnati, Ohio, the

Mount Airy shelter where he was able to be with other veterans

that were having night terrors, that were self-medicating themselves trying to numb the pain of having friends die right beside

them, of carrying bodies off the field. That is a community-based

organization that helped my father, and it was the VA that led him

there, but it was that community-based organization that got him

up on his feet.

And why is that important? Because my father had been through

four other treatment facilities that were institutions that were not

veteran specific. My father could not make it through an institution

that had people other than veterans in it. So he successfully went

through programs at the Mount Airy homeless shelter with other

veterans, and now my father is alive and well today because of

that.

My uncle, Jerry French, whom I did not exploit his condition

until he gave consent to tell his story, was a homeless veteran for

2 years, went into the service with my father. One went to Guam.

My father was wounded, went to Guam. My uncle was there, and

that was great. But my uncle came home seeing the tragedies of

the soldiers that came to him to be treated and cared for. He came

home, had a family. One day, because of his posttraumatic stress

disorder, because of the night terrors and the flashbacks, he left his

family.

We found him on the streets in Florida. The Gainesville VA

picked that Marine up, that proud Marine, put him into the Serenity House in Daytona Beach where there were veteran-specific programs. He is now a counselor, went back to school and got his

master’s.

I have seen two men in my life become whole not because the

VA is there but, more importantly, because there are communitybased organizations out there that helped them pick their lives up.

Why are we looking at veterans as a special homeless population? Because they are retrainable. They are highly skilled. The

education level of a homeless veteran is higher than that of a gen-
30

eral homeless person. The discipline is higher than that of a general homeless person.

Being a college graduate, I think about the veterans that were

in my classes, those supported by the GI bill, and I think, wow,

they made me look stupid in my class because they were the most

disciplined. They were the most outspoken and most articulate students in the class.

And that is who the veterans are. They are a special population

of the United States.

Being Miss America was just a piece of the pie in my seeing a

national perspective on homeless veterans, having lived life with

two gentlemen who became whole and then getting to see the country, getting to be a representative for not only homeless veterans

but 25 million or more American veterans. I went day-to-day and

saw those men and women.

The things I want you to focus on that I think, if you can bind

both of these bills and take the best of both, you need to focus on

female veterans who are homeless. Angela here can tell you her

story.

You want to know what we should do for these veterans? Why

don’t you ask them? Instead of us telling veterans what we are

going to offer them, why don’t you ask what they need? We see the

standdowns, we see female veterans increasingly come into the

population of homeless veterans because we are now able to offer

services, but we can offer more if we increase the funding for specific programs for female veterans.

Are they scared to come out of the woodwork? Yes. Does most

America think about a veteran being male? Yes. Not female. But

the reality is 14 percent of our Armed Forces are female. In this

day in age when we are almost ready to go to war, we are going

to be creating more veterans; and I am asking you to be proactive,

not reactive to these veteran issues and their needs.

Dental care—Representative Simpson, you said it beautifully. It

is not about a smile. It is about medical issues. It is not about looking pretty. It is about preventative measures for health care concerns. My father had his entire teeth pulled because of his knee

problems, orthopedic problems.

These are preventative measures that this bill, H.R. 936, you

need to look at it and what it offers. It is a comprehensive bill that

we have not seen before.

Mental health issues, thank you for concentrating and focusing

on that, Representative Smith, in your bill, because that is very important. I would like to continue for you to look at and focus on

setting aside centers of excellence in the VA health care system for

mental health issues. If we cannot take care of a veteran comprehensively and spiritually and emotionally, we cannot take care

take care of a veteran physically.

And I would like to see the technical assistance for communitybased programs. $750,000 is nothing. These men and woman who

are out there every day taking care of 95 percent of our homeless

population in community-based programs can only do so if you provide them the assistance to go out and teach the other programs

how to better serve their veterans. This is again helping them help

the people you want to help.
31

VA is a primary health care facility, and that is what it should

always be. That is why it needs to partner with community-based

organizations. They are already doing 95 percent of the work anyway. It is your duty to give them the tools to help you. Don’t inundate the VA with services that it is not an expert on. These community-based organizations are experts in helping these people and

helping their social skills and helping them to a better way of life,

and those men and women who are on the panel who have served

will tell you why community-based organizations are excellent and

should be one of your main priorities.

I want to paraphrase before I close a quote from a very famous

leader and you would think it is a quote from today. It says, ‘‘The

willingness of our young men and women is directly related to how

we treat our veterans.’’ is that a recent saying? No, George Washington said that. How many years ago was that? It still holds true

language.

Representative Filner was right. There should be no excuses for

not taking care of our veterans. I have seen millions of them. I

have held their hands and seen their tears. If you haven’t seen a

homeless veteran, get out there and talk to one. Their stories are

amazing, and those are the people that have saved our country and

are going to save our future in the days to come.

Thank you for letting me come and join you and share my experience across the country. I apologize if I have to leave early. I have

missed a train at three, and I have to catch another train at four.

I have to go to Atlantic City to help be the inspiration for 51 talented, well-educated young women competing for the title of Miss

America 2002. So if I have to leave early, I apologize. Thank you

very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you so much for your testimony and for

the great advocacy work you have done on behalf of homeless veterans. We are grateful for that.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to recognize Mr. Kuhn. Please

proceed.

STATEMENT OF JOHN KUHN

Mr. KUHN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee.

First, I want to acknowledge we are already sending men and

women back into combat, men and women I thank God for because

they are going to protect the freedom of my children and myself,

of everybody I know. I don’t know where we would be without

them.

Sitting at the dias today we have people who have already made

that commitment, were willing to risk their lives to protect us, to

protect our freedom and our democracy. They are not asking much

of us for now. They are not asking us to lay down our lives for

them. They are just asking for a simple small degree of assistance

to achieve their goals.

I am going to speak as a field hand because that is what I am

as Director of Homeless Services in New Jersey, and I can tell you

the things that work.

Nationally, I think there has been terrific leadership and guidance that this committee can draw on to see what works. We have
32

Gay Koerber in the audience, who has been doing this since 1987

and knows this field better than anyone in the country.

It is not enough simply to say to a veteran here is housing, here

is a Section 8 voucher, though we need them. It is not enough to

do treatment. It is not enough to do outreach. It has to be everything. Homelessness becomes so corrupting to the individual that

it bleeds out hope, and you need to figure out ways to bring that

person back together so they can move on, so that—I think it was

Congressman Simmons saying that it is not enough to give someone a home and have—in their head they are still in prison or

homeless. You have to provide everything.

So these are the recommendations from the field, I guess.

First, the outreach is a big part of it. How can we get more outreach and people in treatment? We have to involve more community providers. Simply getting public service announcements out,

getting all the community active and getting out to veterans is a

very important thing.

Right now, we have a 1-month wait to get you into the domiciliary; and we are very fortunate in VISN 3, even though we have

taken terrible budget cuts, that our VISN director has actually expanded VISN homeless services. I don’t know how they did that,

but we have increased our size of our dom 85 beds because of this

terrible wait.

But it pains me and I know other people to have to ask people

in summer that you have to wait a month to get into our program.

After they leave our program—which I wish could be longer; it is

only 3 or 4 months—if we can offer them transitional residence and

fortunately get some grant funding, they can continue a program.

But even that ends at a certain point.

Six months or a year down the line, what are we going to tell

a veteran who is unfortunate to live in the greater metropolitan

area where rents are certainly high? I am sorry, you have to go

back to that drug-infested neighborhood because that is the only

way you can afford to live. And, yes, we know it is an awful place

to live, but that is the best we can do. That hardly seems to be an

appropriate response.

Section 8 vouchers, of which we have none right now, would certainly open the door of opportunity to a lot of these veterans. We

haven’t sat on our hands. We have probably bent a lot of rules, and

I will tell you some of the rules we are breaking.

For instance, right now—I am being warned not to. One of the

things we did was we opened up a store called Rainbow Collectibles. That store doesn’t require any taxpayer support. We opened

it with Middlesex County, with a community partner, because we

don’t have all the answers in the VA. We should use community

partners. And with them we now employ five people, anywhere

from the management to the sales to the delivery, and that store

does not take any taxpayers’ support to run. That is one business.

Another business, we have a construction team, and there is actually a wonderful one in Bedford. We stole the idea from them. It

was a great idea, so we decided to do it, too. The construction team

has done a whole bunch of projects now. A couple of projects they

have done with community providers resulted in, new transitional
33

housing. We agreed to come in and rehab it for free, housing our

community partner purchased.

What do we get out of it? For 15 years that housing could only

be used as affordable housing for veterans. So we created a whole

bunch of housing that never existed and didn’t require any Federal

money.

Even better, our veterans construction team, those guys get experience working on that project. And how did we pay them? With

the revenue we have from the store. Again, it is making the money

work again and again.

What I would love to have is seed money so we could do more

businesses, joint ventures like this. We are preparing—just putting

the finishing touches on a greenhouse we are building which one

of the members at this table is involved in building. And, again, it

will employ veterans. It won’t cost money to keep on going and provide additional revenue. So we could make that a resource for the

community and make it a resource for our veterans without imposing additional demands.

But what we could use is clear Congressional instruction so that

our regional council level and our lawyers know this is something

we should be doing.

Nationally, we have an account called STRAF. Nationally, there

is about 12 or 13 million bucks in this account. We have a few hundred thousand. We are using this money to take some risks to start

some businesses so we can employ veterans and create resources.

It is not costing anyone a dime, but it makes everybody awfully

nervous that we are doing this, which makes no sense. The only

people who are benefiting are homeless veterans, and I thought

that is why we are here.

So I think, from a clinical standpoint, everyone is behind us but

regional councils, our lawyers need to know that it is okay to do

this. No one is going to get in trouble or go to jail. Really, it is

okay.

Finally—I see the red light is already on—I think these programs give hope. They offer hope because we are telling veterans,

you can get a job, we will help you find a job, we will get you housing. If you have those things out there, all of a sudden the treatment process seems less intimidating. If you know you are going

to go through treatment and if you stay clean and sober or whatever it is you have to do and you do what you need to do to get

your life back together, you are not helpless because there is a job

out there. There is real, meaningful work that makes a difference.

There is a decent place to live.

And all of a sudden we are creating taxpayers, we are creating

people who have the self-respect that God knows they deserve. We

wouldn’t even be here in this country without them, and it seems

the least we could offer them.

Thank you.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Kuhn appears on p. 179.]

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

Mr. EVANS. Thank you for being with us, Heather. The work is

still in front of us, but you give us the boost we need. We hope to

see you regularly as you fight this battle.

Ms. HENRY. I will be with you every step of the way.
34

Mr. EVANS. Thank you for being here.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask our distinguished panel, if

any of your associates would like to provide some insight or testimony, please feel free to do so.

You know, you made mention a moment ago about the 1-month

wait in order to get into the domiciliary. I think it does outstanding

work. The can-do attitude of the leadership teams, the personnel

and the young men—mostly young men that I met, some of whom

were from my own district—they felt that they have hope now and

they have a possibility and prospects and they are being helped immensely by the VA at that domiciliary. But you mentioned a

month’s wait.

Later in testimony from Theodore Jones of the American Federation of Government Employees, he will testify about his wait and

the absolutely disastrous impact it had on his life after having gone

through a 3-day inpatient detox program, then into a 21-day

inpatient rehab program, and then he wanted to get into a halfway

house but it was full. And as he will testify, he was very

discouraged.

But then he points out for the next year and a half he lived on

the edge. Then he goes into how someone has the tendency to fall

off because they are flung down the ladder. If you miss, you could

fall down and fall hard as he did.

But eventually, obviously, he made a remarkable and a courageous comeback.

But it seems to me, if we don’t have all of those links right in

line, you miss one, you fall through the cracks; and it is disastrous

for the individual veteran.

Obviously, we have 10 more domiciliaries and a host of other programs envisioned in our bill, and Mr. Evans has other ideas in his

bill. What has been your experience and the experience of perhaps

your colleagues when there is a crack and you are going along fine

and, bingo, there is nothing available? There isn’t Section 8 housing. You said there is none available in our area, which is, you

know, very insightful and I think unfortunate. If you could

respond.

Mr. COLLICK. I will answer that. I just left out of the domiciliary,

and I got custody of my two daughters. One was in Seattle, and

one was in Kansas. So I got custody of my daughters. There is no

Section 8, so I have to get an apartment. So I went and got a twobedroom apartment. I am working with the construction team, so

we are not making that much money, but I learned one thing in

there, that I have to survive and stay strong and do what I have

to do. Because days will get better somewhere down the line.

The program, it helped.

Mr. KUHN. If there is time, I would certainly like the opportunity

to have the veterans who came today to give statements. I think

that their experiences will be very valuable for the committee to

hear. Because, speaking to professionals is fine, well and good, but

hearing it from the people who actually depend on the service——

The CHAIRMAN. Please proceed.
35

STATEMENT OF ANGELA GIPSON

Ms. GIPSON. Hi. My name is Angela Gipson. I am a veteran. I

served 7 years and 6 months in the Untied States Air Force and

Army. I have done tours at Langley, Clark, Travis and 3 years in

Germany. My job was military police with K–9. I was honorably

discharged in 1992 after Desert Storm.

I worked a civilian job as a youth worker. I cannot say what

made me start using drugs, but I can say it is something I do not

wish upon my enemy.

My first try of recovery was in 1993 at East Orange VA, a 21-

day program. I lasted 20 days and left because of my anger and

temper with the counselor.

These past years have been a living hell. I came back into recovery January 20, 2001.

I started in East Orange VA, then was referred to Lyons Dom

by my social worker. I made it through the 21 days. That was my

test for the dom. I made it through to the dom, which I am at now.

Once I got into the dom, I got into trouble, so I was put on a 30-

day suspension, but I was let back in after going through the outpatient program.

Those 30 days of suspension were hell. I let my family down, and

I let myself down. I came back to the dom in June of 2001, begging

to be back in. I was let in.

This time, after a whole new outlook on my recovery, going to

counseling one on one and a recreation therapist, I am a better person. I was able to find the real me, pinpoint my real anger, which

was my mother which I had resentment against. But I am through

with one on one and freeing myself. I no longer hold onto that.

There is also a health tech that helps me. She takes me to

church. For this program is not only mental, it is also spiritual.

I have confidence. I love myself. I love my family, and they once

again love me. The program has been a strength for me, my peers

and myself.

I wish that it would be a longer term and possible be extended.

As of now, we have a wait list for drug abuse for veterans. There

is also a wish for a better work study program. I myself worked

as a patient escort. I am glad I did it. It made me more people oriented. Just wish it had been longer.

I am currently on an outside program working at a deli. My true

goal, though, is to be VA police, for which I have applied and have

learned patience to wait. It is just a matter of, hopefully, soon becoming a woman in blue. I would like to thank the Lyons Dom for

giving me this opportunity. If not, I would like to come back and

be a counselor for women vets.

The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Gipson, thank you very much for sharing

that very personal and moving story; and I hope you can realize

that opportunity. Because I think, having suffered so much, you

can certainly impart and empathize with those who are going

through a difficult ordeal. So thank you for doing that for us today,

and we wish you the best of luck.

The CHAIRMAN. Would anyone else like to ask questions before

we go to the next witness?
36

STATEMENT OF STUART COLLICK

Mr. COLLICK. I am Stuart Collick. I am a vet. I went in the military in 1981, and I got out in 1994 after 14 years, 8 months and

13 days. I went to Grenada. I have been to Saudi. But when I got

out of the military I didn’t realize that things that was going on

within me like the PTSD, the mental stress and the things that I

was avoiding, you know, depression, anger, stress.

Then, coming up here for many years, I didn’t want to go to the

VA because I didn’t feel that it would help. But then I did finally

go, and I got there and I learned that I needed to go to these

things, like the PTSD program which helped me out a whole lot,

because I got within myself and was feeling better about myself.

Then the drug and alcohol program, that helped me out to realize

that I don’t need drugs and I don’t need alcohol to work in society,

to live my life to the fullest. And now I am working with the construction team, and that is helping out fellow vets and my peers

a lot, because we are doing more for the community than we were

doing before.

My uplifting experience with this program has done a lot to

change my life like show me love, peace, joy, strength and courage.

And I feel sorry for the vets that now have to go to this conflict

that is going on now. Because, the Middle East, it is no place to

enjoy. It is hot over there, and it is frustrating, and they have to

deal with a lot of things over there which we did.

But being a vet, a lot of people used vets for mentors, a lot of

kids. And children, teenagers they use those. And when you get

into that drug scene and that alcohol thing, you don’t know who

you are hurting. A lot of kids are looking up to you. But then once

you realize it and you put back—like now I feel great about myself,

and my relationship with my daughter’s gotten better, my nephews, there is a good relationship with, because I didn’t know at

that time they would look up to me. But now I know because my

eyes are more clear and I have got feelings and forgiveness and I

can deal with that.

This program, it showed me all of that. That is all I got to say.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

Mr. COLLICK. One more thing. Come to think of it, talking about

that program, I did get my teeth removed, and I got them fixed,

because a lot of days I didn’t want to smile. And he was right about

that. Because when your teeth are missing, you don’t want to

smile. You don’t want to talk to people. But now I can smile and

laugh and talk with people and that will help out a lot. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Collick. Thank you very much

for your testimony, and I am sure our dentist chairman appreciates

that as well.

I think Dr. Simpson made a good point, too, that it is not just

the smile, it is also the notion—the fact that food is not properly

digested, and all of the low-level infection makes one vulnerable for

other infections that may be in proximity to the person. So it is

very, very important to the well-being of all people, including our

veterans.

So I think the point is very well taken. It is something that we

will be looking to address in the legislation.

Are there any questions from—one more. Sorry.
37

STATEMENT OF WALTER MCCONNELL

Mr. MCCONNELL. My name is Walter McConnell. I am honored

to be here, and I am nervous. Because of my PTSD, I have shortterm memory loss, so I have got a script. Okay. However, it is true

and factual; and, well, it goes like this.

Thank you for affording us this time. As I said, my name is Walter McConnell. I reside in New Jersey. I am a vet, Vietnam 1967

to 1979, 8 months in a combat zone. I have been diagnosed with

PTSD, alcoholism and drug addiction. I am homeless and indigent

with medical problems and presently residing at Lyons VA domiciliary in New Jersey.

I would like to briefly describe my life up until now.

For years I lived what appeared to be a normal life. I had a good

job, a nice home in a nice community, all of the toys—boat, camper,

vacation spots, a loving wife, a wonderful son. I was a member in

a church parish. I bought and paid for a home which the VA helped

me to acquire. I paid taxes, voted and was respected by family and

friends in the community and through the years helped many people and families not as fortunate.

In 1993, I got hurt on the job; and through lawsuits I lost that

job. I started taking various medications and started drinking

heavily.

Shortly after losing my job, I lost the most precious part of my

life. My only son died in a car accident a mile from my home. That

devastated my wife and myself. I just couldn’t stop the pain and

suffering. I started drinking heavily and became reckless. After

many bad investments, multiple DWIs, I lost my driving privileges.

Lawyers fees, fines, lawsuits, started to eat me up.

I divorced my wife of 30 years and left so she wouldn’t lose everything that we had worked so hard for through the years. I was

never in this predicament before and had no place to go. I started

to isolate from friends, family, coworkers. I really felt like an outcast and didn’t belong in society.

I didn’t know where to get help. I was a broken man and blamed

my God for all of this mess. But by then I had lost all rational

thinking and went into a deep depression. After the last DWI, I

knew that I was going to jail and nothing short of a miracle could

keep that from happening.

But through this period I had been in touch with one friend who

kept giving me hope that things might not be as bad as they

seemed. He had started getting his life together, and he was another vet and recovering from addictions. He gave me good direction and helped me tremendously in getting here. He also represented me in behalf of the VA in court.

Without the help of the VA staff, I surely would have been incarcerated for quite some time. And I am not a criminal or a jail person. I have helped many people in my life. Although I have a lot

of shame and guilt, I believe I deserve this opportunity to get sober

and address the many issues I am carrying.

Since I started in this program, I am getting good health care,

hygiene, a clean place to live, proper medications, dental work,

proper medications for trauma, a chance to renew my faith. Also,

I am working on computers skills. I was computer illiterate. And

I have a plan. I have a program for my addictions, help for my
38

PTSD. I have a job and will be saving some money so that I can

return to the community and society once again.

I just hope I am afforded enough time to get my life back together. I can’t thank the VA enough for all of the help and care

I am receiving. I am 57 years old and more than anything want

my dignity and self-esteem back. I am willing to go to any lengths

I have to get there, even if it takes the rest of my life.

I pray that our voices here today will be heard by you for the

many still suffering and patriotic veterans that haven’t had this opportunity to feel life again.

Without this funding for the prospect of jobs and affordable housing, Section 8, many vets will have little hope of re-entry into the

community and life as we know it. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McConnell, thank you very much for your

outstanding testimony. We do wish you well, and I think you made

a very important point about what isolation can do. Thankfully,

someone was there, another vet to help you to cling to that hope

until you made an upward swing.

I am sure the VA will be pleased to know that you were pleased

with the service that you have been provided. Sometimes they get

an enormous amount of criticism, as does Congress, but especially

the point of service, the VA, they are doing some things very well.

They just need to do more of it. That is the responsibility. The buck

stops here, as well that we pony up sufficient resources to do it to

reach those that we are not reaching.

I would like to yield to my colleague.

Mr. SIMPSON. Mr. Chairman, I don’t have any questions, but I do

want to thank you all for your service to our country and thank

you for your testimony today. It is very moving.

Mr. SIMMONS. Thank you very much. I also share in those

thoughts.

It occurred to me that we—as members in these bills, we probably need to refer to dentistry somewhere in the title. It seems that

that is a common theme here.

But I thank all of the panelists for their service and also for the

military service. But I also thank them for something else. I thank

them for coming here today.

I have always believed and I frequently talk about what this

country and what this government is all about. I carry a copy of

the Constitution in my pocket at all times, and we don’t need to

be reminded that it begins, ‘‘we the people’’. And for us to serve the

people, we have to know what the people’s concerns are. For us to

be effective, you have to tell us.

So your testimony here today is important. It—your witness to

your lives and your witness is important to us as we try to frame

legislation to help others like you. And some of us in this body are

accustomed to speaking a lot, and it is no big deal. But I can tell

you, when you come in a room, you see the flags and the chandeliers, it looks pretty scary. So I thank you for the courage to

serve your country, and I thank you for the courage to come and

serve your fellow veterans today.

For you, Dr. Kuhn, I gather that you have got a heck of a good

program in New Jersey. Good for you.
39

I am proud of what we do in Connecticut. That is not that far

away, and I would love to come visit it sometime if I could, if that

could be okay, and certainly you all are welcome up at West Haven

in Connecticut. But I would be interested to visit the facility, Mr.

Chairman, and see how it works and get better informed.

Thank you all very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

I want to ask Mr. Kuhn or any of the others if you have any final

comments before we move on to the next panel?

Mr. KUHN. I just want to thank you again for having us up here.

And I think having veterans come up themselves and speak, that

was just a great thing to do.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you for recommending it. I do want to say

to you and to other veterans, you know, it says in the Bible, ‘‘without help the people perish’’, and I think all of you at some point

found someone with whom you could hope and who helped you

through that ordeal.

What we hopefully can craft here with this legislation is a comprehensive response. I don’t think we should take no for an answer.

The VA testified earlier it didn’t like this, necessarily, didn’t like

that, or thought that this could be provided, like the dental care,

for example, the costs—the suggestion that it might be exorbitant.

But, you know, your testimonies really do help and help in a tangible way for us to focus, get right back to exactly what we are

talking about, real lives who are at risk and with a lifeline that can

become a productive, healthy life into the future. Then as, Ms.

Gipson, you pointed out, you want to go back yourself and you hope

some day to be helping other female veterans who may be in this

situation.

All of you are helping your fellow veterans in immeasurable

ways, and I wanted to thank you on behalf of our committee. So

thank you.

Mr. KUHN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to welcome now our third panel of

veterans in. They always wait to the very end; and, unfortunately,

many of the members do move on to other business. But I can assure you that the ranking member, who had to go on to a caucus,

and I and members on both sides listen and listen intently to your

input, as you know, through our collaboration with our staffs as

well as members.

I would like to introduce this panel. Mr. Carl Blake, Associate

Legislative Director, Paralyzed Veterans of America; Mr. Brian

Lawrence, Associate National Legislative Director, Disabled

American Veterans; Ms. Jacqueline Garrick, Deputy Director,

Health Care, National Veterans Affairs and Rehabilitation Commission; Ms. Linda Boone, Executive Director of Coalition for

Homeless Veterans; Mr. Theodore R. Jones, Chief Steward for

Local 1647, American Federation of Government Employees, AFLCIO; and Mr. Richard Schneider, Director, Non Commissioned Officers Association.
40

STATEMENTS OF CARL BLAKE, ASSOCIATE LEGISLATIVE DIRECTOR, PARALYZED VETERANS OF AMERICA; BRIAN E.

LAWRENCE, ASSOCIATE NATIONAL LEGISLATIVE DIRECTOR,

DISABLED AMERICAN VETERANS; JACQUELINE GARRICK,

DEPUTY DIRECTOR, HEALTH CARE, NATIONAL VETERANS

AFFAIRS AND REHABILITATION COMMISSION, THE AMERICAN LEGION; LINDA BOONE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL COALITION FOR HOMELESS VETERANS; THEODORE

R. JONES, CHIEF STEWARD, LOCAL 1647, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES, AFL-CIO; LEONARD

SELFON, APPEARING FOR RICHARD WEIDMAN, DIRECTOR

OF GOVERNMENT RELATIONS, VIETNAM VETERANS OF

AMERICA; AND RICHARD SCHNEIDER, DIRECTOR, STATE/

VETERANS AFFAIRS, NON COMMISSIONED OFFICERS ASSOCIATION

The CHAIRMAN. So, to begin with, Mr. Blake.

STATEMENT OF CARL BLAKE

Mr. BLAKE. Mr. Chairman, just let me say first that I dare say

there is nothing myself or anyone else on this panel could say that

would make as much of as impact as our previous panelists, but

I will do my best.

Chairman Smith, Ranking Member Evans, members of the committee, the Paralyzed Veterans of America is pleased to present our

views on H.R. 936, the Heather French Henry Homeless Veterans

Assistance Act, and H.R. 2716, the Homeless Veterans Assistance

Act of 2001. PVA would like to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for making this legislation a priority during such a trying time in our

Nation.

PVA supports H.R. 936, the Heather French Henry Homeless

Veterans Assistance Act introduced by Representative Evans.

The problem with homelessness among our Nation’s veterans

grows with every passing day. The Independent Budget, which is

coauthored by PVA, has estimated that more than 275,000 veterans are homeless on any given night. Furthermore, more than half

a million veterans experience a period of homelessness throughout

the course of a year.

Additional estimates show that one out of every three homeless

males who is sleeping in a doorway, alley or box in our cities or

rural communities has put on a uniform and served this Nation.

The Department of Veterans Affairs reports that most homeless

veterans are male; only 2 percent are female. More than 67 percent

of those homeless veterans served in the Armed Forces for at least

3 years.

A major problem that the VA faces is that of homeless veterans

with mental illness and substance abuse disorders. The VA estimates that about 45 percent of homeless veterans suffer from mental illness and 50 percent have substance abuse problems. One of

the most common illnesses among those individuals is Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. In the past 5 years, spending on the VA’s

mental health programs has declined by nearly 10 percent.

We previously testified before the Subcommittee on Benefits that

the decline in the VA’s mental health capacity has increased the
41

number of veterans with no place to go. Thus, the rate of homelessness among veterans with mental illness continues to increases.

Support from various government agencies, including the VA, the

Department of Labor, and the Department of Housing and Urban

Development is essential in overcoming the problems our other

homeless veterans constantly face.

PVA supports the extension of the Homeless Veterans Reintegration Program. The HVRP has been the leading program for the employment of homeless veterans.

Within the VA, physical and mental health care is vital to gain

and hold employment. Mental health and substance abuse programs are key to preparing many homeless veterans for the workforce. PVA requests that each VA medical center report its current

capacity in order to provide the VA with an idea of the direction

we must go to improve.

PVA supports the establishment of the Advisory Committee on

Homeless Veterans as outlined by Section 4 of H.R. 936. The interaction between the agencies represented on the committee should

allow for multiple solutions to be developed and implemented. A

critical task of this advisory committee is identifying barriers

under existing laws and policies to effective coordination by the VA

with other Federal agencies and with State and local agencies addressing homeless populations. Once the difficulties between these

agencies are overcome, then a unified, focused effort can be made

among these agencies to turn these problems around.

PVA also recognizes the need to assist homeless veterans with

special needs. We must not let our women veterans, veterans over

50 years of age, veterans who have to care for minor dependents

or other family members, or veterans who suffer from substance

abuse, PTSD, terminal illness or chronic mental illness to be left

behind.

The grant program for medical centers that would allow these

centers to support those veterans with special needs is a vital part

of the meeting of the national goal of overcoming homelessness

among veterans within a decade. Evaluating veterans’ satisfaction,

health status, reduction in addiction severity, housing, and encouragement of productive activity and comparing those results to similar programs in the VA will provide us with was a blueprint of how

to combat the homeless problem.

An important to way to accomplish the national goal for overcoming veterans’ homelessness is the implementation of outreach

programs. It is no secret that non-homeless veterans filing claims

face many difficulties because they are not fully aware of the benefits and services they are entitled to. That being said, if these individuals do not have easy access to everything they need to know,

then you can only imagine how difficult it is for homeless veterans

who have no link to information.

Our homeless veterans need to know what benefits they are entitled to, as well as what local VA facilities they have access to. We

urge the VA to focus on outreach if it intends to be successful in

overcoming the plight of homelessness.

PVA salutes the efforts of this committee to bring the issues of

homelessness among veterans to the forefront and to make every

effort to put it to an end. We look forward to working with the com-
42

mittee and staff on solutions that will lead to the end of homelessness among veterans. I thank the committee for this opportunity

to present PVA’s views and will be happy to answer any questions

you may have.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Blake, thank you very much for your testimony.

I would just like to note for the record, this is your first time testifying before the House. I want to extend to you the special thanks

of the committee. We appreciate your service to the Nation in the

First Brigade to the 82nd Airborne Division in the United States

Army. I know that you were injured in the line of duty and have

already sacrificed your own health for the good of the country, and

we are very happy again to have you here and look forward to

hearing from you many times into the future.

Mr. BLAKE. Thank you.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Blake appears on p. 182.]

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to welcome Mr. Lawrence, and it is

my understanding it is your first time as well to testify.

Just very briefly, a native of Iowa, Mr. Lawrence enlisted in the

United States Navy in 1984. After training as a U.S. Navy diver,

his assignments included Special Boat Unit 13, Coronado, California, and Explosive Ordnance Disposal Mobile Unit Number 9 in

San Francisco. He suffered a fracture of his right leg as a parachutist, and that happened in a landing in 1991, and was honorably discharged in 1992. We welcome him here as well to the

committee.

STATEMENT OF BRIAN E. LAWRENCE

Mr. LAWRENCE. Thank you for that very kind introduction.

On behalf of the Disabled American Veterans, thank you for inviting us to share our views on H.R. 936 and H.R. 2716. Both bills

would improve programs for homeless veterans and are very much

appreciated and welcomed by the DAV.

Year after year delegates to our national convention adopt resolutions calling for increased funding for homeless veteran programs

to provide medical and psychiatric care, temporary quarters and

vocational rehabilitative training for many veterans.

The gap between an existence in a permanent residence and an

existence of hopeless destitution is small. Often, with a bit of assistance, they can bridge the gap and once again become productive

contributors to society.

Our country benefits greatly when this occurs. There is the obvious economic benefit in that tax users become taxpayers. But, more

importantly, there is the satisfaction of knowing a once proud

member of our military has regained his or her bearing and selfesteem.

Having participated in homeless veteran outreach programs in

Florida and in Utah, I know that a simple helping hand is sometimes all that is necessary to get a homeless vet back on track to

being employed and leading a life of normalcy. The people who

raised their hand and swore to defend our freedom deserve at least

some measure of help.

There are some veterans among the ranks of the homeless that

deserve our very deepest gratitude. During an outreach program in
43

Ocala National Forest in Florida, we assisted many combat wounded veterans in filing their initial application to receive VA benefits,

the first time that they had ever even asked for anything from the

VA. Mistrust of the government or lack of awareness dissuaded

them from filing before.

I was surprised and saddened to learn that verified recipients of

combat infantry badges, Purple Hearts and Bronze Stars were living their lives in such squalor. Immediately you wonder how much

their wartime experience contributed to their unfortunate status,

and few can imagine the horror of combat or the lasting ramifications such an experience can have.

I would like to go on record as stating that DAV is grateful to

former Miss America Heather French Henry for her compassion

and effort in bringing this problem to light.

H.R. 936, the Heather French Henry Homeless Veterans Assistance Act, and H.R. 2716, the Homeless Veterans Assistance Act of

2001, are both comprehensive and ambitious pieces of legislation

that would provide much-needed improvement to measures to assist those in need.

H.R. 936 would establish a 15-member advisory committee to direct homeless initiatives and also expand access to outpatient dental services, treatment and appliances.

H.R. 2716 would increase the number of rental vouchers for veterans’ affairs supported housing and also provide increases in the

VA’s homeless grant and per diem programs.

Thankfully, this committee has recognized that we as a Nation

most do more to correct the serious problem of homelessness among

our veterans. Both bills are a step in that direction. We hope that

the best aspects of each bill can be incorporated into final legislation.

That concludes my testimony, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, and I

will be happy to answer any questions that you may have.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Lawrence. We appreciate your testimony.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Lawrence appears on p. 187.]

The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Garrick.

STATEMENT OF JACQUELINE GARRICK

Ms. GARRICK. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee,

good afternoon.

The American Legion is pleased to have been invited to comment

on H.R. 936 and H.R. 2716 and is grateful for the appearance of

its fellow veterans who spoke so eloquently today, and we hope

that their needs will be answered.

Homelessness in America is a travesty, but homeless veterans is

a disgrace. Left uncared for and discarded, these men and women

who once proudly wore the uniforms of this Nation and defended

her shores, as they are now called upon to do again, are now wandering her streets in desperate need of medical and psychiatric attention and financial support.

Last year, the VA estimated that there were over 300,000 homeless veterans in America, which was a 34 percent increase above

the 1998 report.
44

Unaddressed in either of these bills is the cause of this increase

in homelessness among American veterans. It cannot go unnoticed

that the increase in homeless veterans coincides with the underfunding of VA health care which resulted in the downsizing of inpatient mental health capabilities in VA hospitals across the

country.

Since 1996, VA has closed 64 percent of its psychiatric beds and

90 percent of its substance abuse beds and is treating 12 percent

less veterans. Where did VA expect these veterans to go? It is no

surprise that many of these displaced patients wound up in the

jails, on the streets, or in early graves. There needs to be a focus

on prevention of homelessness, not just measures to respond to it.

Preventing it is the most important step in ending homelessness.

VA’s psychiatric services must be adequately funded and staffed.

Additional inpatient beds need to be reopened for psychiatric patients and substance abusers to have the safety net that they need.

The bills under consideration here today have been reviewed by

the American Legion, and we offer the following comments and

recommendations.

On H.R. 936, the American Legion adamantly supports the goal

to end homelessness among veterans. However, it should not take

a decade. That is too long for veterans to be left out in the cold.

Strategic planning should be done to include short-term and longterm goals. Tactics must be designed to meet those goals on a continuous basis if we are to truly end homelessness. Immediate medical and psychiatric needs must be first met by bolstering VA inpatient and outpatient services and by developing referral and transition network.

Section 4. The American Legion fully supports the establishment

of the Advisory Committee. These are lofty goals and require a

great deal of time and attention.

Section 5. Unfortunately, this council has not met very often to

coordinate their efforts. The American Legion fully supports this

council holding at least an annual meeting.

Section 6 calls for the continued support of at least one center

for evaluation to monitor the structure, process and outcomes of VA

programs. The American Legion supports this provision and suggests VA provide a detailed analysis of the workload to include

user population and specialized needs.

Section 7. Veterans who are receiving services in homeless chronically mentally ill programs, specialized programs, substance

abuse, sheltered housing, and PTSD treatment will be assigned to

the ‘‘complex care’’ category. The American Legion fully supports

this assignment and believes it will change many VA managers’ approaches in their outreach to the chronically mentally ill.

Section 8. This section would set per diem payments at the same

rate for the State homes. This rate appears to be appropriate. The

only caution is in the variance in the populations served. Some programs are more expensive to maintain. For example, it would cost

more to run an HIV program.

Section 9. The American Legion supports the establishment of

this grant program.

Section 10. There has been concerns in the field that VA hospitals and vet centers do not communicate well together. However,
45

this varies. An outreach plan should first look at networks that

have had success communicating with the vet centers and emulate

those best practices.

Section 11. This provision proposes to carry out two trials in

mental health treatment. Studying the effectiveness of those models seems to be an appropriate step in implementing a more coordinated approach to mental health services.

Section 12. The American Legion supports an inclusive dental

program.

Section 13. The American Legion fully supports the expansion of

mental health services. VA has not made capacity in that area, and

it must return to the 1996 level.

Section 12. The grant and per diem program must continue to be

increased if it is to meet the needs of the growing homeless veteran

population.

Section 14. This CWT program is a vital part of rehabilitation for

homeless veterans. It is through this program that homeless veterans gain job skills while earning a salary. Coordination of other

benefits and employee services, especially while a veteran is in

CWT, allows them to move beyond.

Section 15. It is not unrealistic to ask community-based programs to come into compliance with the National Fire and Safety

Codes.

Section 16. Calls for the provision of a 3-year pilot. Although this

sounds like a good concept, the American Legion has concerns over

the regional offices’ ability to expedite such a program considering

the current backlog.

Section 17. The American Legion supports VA being able to provide support to non-profit organizations under the grant program.

Section 18. The American Legion supports the home loan program for manufactured housing.

Section 19. The American Legion supports the increases outlined

in the Homeless Veterans Assistance Act of 2001. These appropriations are more in line with the demand the new provisions would

place on VA.

Section 20. Although the American Legion understands the value

of enhanced use lease, it is cautionary that these agreements are

done in a cost-effective manner and that protections for veterans in

the VA system are included.

In regards to H.R. 2716, the American Legion is in full agreement that Federal efforts to assist homeless veterans should include prevention of homelessness.

Section 3. This new chapter is comprehensive in nature and allows VA the necessary authority to provide these services to homeless veterans.

Section 4. The number of case managers must be sufficient to

allow veterans easy and timely access. Social work services should

be involved, and the American Legion requests a ratio of 25 patients per provider.

Section 5. There is a demonstration project in VISN 1, and the

American Legion recommends that this be looked at as a model.

Section 6. The American Legion sees this concept as extremely

complicated, although necessary. However, HUD is now predicting

that it will be able to provide comparable data in 2004. These
46

would be very expensive items to track, and additional funding

would be needed.

Section 7. Again, the enhanced use lease process would be very

complicated and has not worked for VA well. This whole process

would need to be looked at.

Section 8. The American Legion is in support of the 10 additional

domiciliary programs. VISNs 11 and 19 are not currently offering

this and should be given first priority.

Section 9. The American Legion supports this demonstration program and recommends that the CWT program managers be included in this process since they have worked with the Department

of Justice in reaching out to incarcerated veterans.

Section 10. The American Legion believes that this program will

be a significant measure in assisting veterans who are trying to

maintain their sobriety. The American Legion is very pleased to see

provisions that would allow VA to recover unused funds. However,

there should also be provisions for VA to be able to repatriate its

patients if there are any concerns over the quality of care or the

satisfaction of the veterans.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, that concludes my

statement. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Garrick, thank you very much for your testimony.

[The prepared statement of Ms. Garrick appears on p. 193.]

The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Boone.

STATEMENT OF LINDA BOONE

Ms. BOONE. Chairman Smith and committee members, the National Coalition for Homeless Veterans is very supportive of the intent of both bills, H.R. 2716, introduced by Chairman Smith, and

H.R. 936, introduced by Ranking Member Evans, to provide for a

wide range of services to homeless veterans.

Here NCHV will comment primarily on H.R. 2716, since we have

provided detailed comments on H.R. 936 at the June 20 hearing.

The Sense of Congress Section addresses prevention of homelessness among veterans. That has long been ignored.

Today we are facing a potential situation of buildup of active

duty military personnel. Within days after military personnel returned to civilian life following Desert Storm, there were homeless

veterans. NCHV strongly recommends that this committee anticipate the discharge needs of military personnel that will address the

prevention of homelessness by ensuring that the Department of Defense becomes a partner in the prevention efforts now.

This bill includes authorization for the VA homeless providers,

grant and per diem program for grantees to be able to count inkind services as part of the match requirement of the grant.

While NCHV members have requested this authorization in the

past, their preferred method is to have a flat per diem rate the

same as the State VA home domiciliary rate that does not require

a match. Leaving the match requirement even with the addition of

counting in kind requires excessive documentation, which is a burden on grantees and the VA. NCHV strongly recommends that

Congress not only authorize the VA to allocate these increased

amounts to the grant and per diem program but add it as a line
47

item in the VA budget so that it will be allocated regardless of internal decision-making processes that have not always been sensitive to homeless programs.

The Homeless Veterans Reintegration Program managed through

the Department of Labor, Veterans Employment and Training

Service is virtually the only program that focuses on employment

of veterans who are homeless. HVRP programs work with veterans

who have special needs and are shunned by other programs and

services, veterans who have hit the very bottom, including those

with long histories of substance abuse, severe PTSD, serious social

problems, those who have legal issues, and those that are HIV

positive. These veterans require more time-consuming, specialized,

intensive assessment, referrals and counseling than is possible in

other programs that work with other veterans seeking employment.

NCHV recommends an investment of $50 million per year in

HVRP to assist veterans in becoming self-sustaining and responsible, tax-paying citizens.

NCHV supports the waiver of the competitive selection process

for enhanced use leases for properties used to serve homeless veterans and believes this could expedite the expansion of services to

homeless veterans while increasing the return on investment of

Federal properties currently underutilized.

There will be a challenge to match available properties with organizations having the technical expertise to plan, implement and

manage this complex set of funding and property management

issues. NCHV recommends that technical assistance resources be a

part of the authorization.

NCHV strongly supports the intent of establishing a demonstration program relating to referral and counseling for veterans

transitioning from certain institutions who are at risk of homelessness which focuses on the prevention of homelessness.

The language does not address a role for community-based organizations, which we think should be part of the prevention formula.

Community-based organizations provide the housing and case management services for the complex set of issues facing these veterans

transitioning from institutions. Their role needs to be acknowledged and included in developing solutions of preventing homelessness among veterans.

NCHV is very disappointed there is no provision to provide technical assistance for homeless veteran providers. Where and how

are they going to learn how to be successful?

The VA does not provide technical assistance, and HUD does so

for general population homeless providers. But nothing is done veterans specific by knowledgeable veteran providers.

In our coalition we have many successful programs that could be

used for models to replicate. However, there are no manuals or formal processes to share their success stories in an intense manner

that would assist other programs for replication. Successful programs do not have additional resources available to share their

methods and strategies. They are too busy managing their own programs. I urge this committee to consider finding ways to get capacity-building services into the hands of the community-based care

provider groups attempting to serve veterans.
48

I ask you to consider authorizing an allocation of $750,000 each

year through fiscal year 2007 to the National Coalition for Homeless Veterans to build capacity of the veterans service provider

network.

NCHV looks forward to working with this committee and the

staff on solutions that will lead to the end of homelessness among

veterans. NCHV’s board believes that ending homelessness among

veterans is not a mission impossible but a mission possible and

looks forward to your continued support. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for your testimony.

[The prepared statement of Ms. Boone appears on p. 200.]

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to invite Mr. Jones, who is next on

the roster, if you would provide your testimony.

STATEMENT OF THEODORE R. JONES

Mr. JONES. Thank you, Chairman Smith.

Okay. My name is Theodore Jones. I am the Chief Steward of the

American Federation of Government Employees. I work at the VA

hospital in West Haven, Connecticut.

From 1978 to 1981, I served in the Air Force. I had a Top Secret

clearance. When I left the military in 1981, the recession had hit.

The unemployment rate of African Americans was nearly 20 percent. Without a job and without the likelihood of a steady job, I got

into drugs. I was homeless and on drugs for years.

In 1989, I went to West Haven VA for help. I went through a

3-day detox and then into a 21-day inpatient rehab. The next step

in recovery was a 6-month program on the VA campus. The VA

halfway house was a safe, clean environment. It provided structure

and support to help you build your life. I was told that the halfway

house was full with no beds. The best the VA could do was to wish

me good luck and suggest I find an AA meeting to attend.

I still had no job, no hope, no clue, no support. I went back to

the VA a week later to see if a bed was open. No luck. The VA had

no bed for me. I was very discouraged.

The next year and a half was not a pretty story. I used cocaine,

snorted heroin, used alcohol, slept in hallways, slept under bridges,

slept in abandoned cars. Sometimes I didn’t sleep. I just walked

around town without a clue.

I had been beaten up, shot and cut, spent 5 to 6 months living

in a particular abandoned car. I was going home to my abandoned

car one night, and it wasn’t there. They had towed the car. I got

evicted. I felt—you couldn’t imagine. My aunt and uncle who adopted me after my mother died when I was 12 years old, they were

afraid of me. I couldn’t go there.

The term ‘‘hitting bottom’’ describes when an addict starts to realize that he or she has a problem and needs help. Hitting bottom

is a clinical concept. On the streets the only bottom is death.

I went back to the VA in 1991. After the 3-day detox I was discharged. Why? No more beds available. I was told to come back in

6 days. I was one of the lucky ones this time because the VA did

finally have a bed for me in the 21-day program. Too many vets

weren’t so lucky. They relapsed or OD’d because there were no

beds for them.
49

I was told again that there was no beds open in the halfway

house. I waited the longest 2 weeks of my life to get into the halfway house.

When a veteran is ready to change his life, become sober, how

can we tell him to go away? We aren’t ready to help you today.

Mr. Chairman, I know I am short of time. If you would just allow

me a few more minutes to——

Nationwide, the VA does not have enough substance abuse and

psychiatric beds for the homeless vets who want them.

The VA brags about how it has cut inpatient beds. The VA medical center has lost a total of 80 beds that were there to treat homeless vets for addiction. The halfway house that helped saved my life

is gone. The entire rehab program is done on an outpatient basis.

I could not have remained sober and be here today if I had to do

it on outpatient basis.

My story as a homeless vet is not unique. Every day the VA

turns away homeless veterans for lack of substance abuse and

mental illness beds is a senseless obstacle in a veteran’s road to recovery.

If you do one thing I would like to urge the committee to do one

thing for homeless veterans this year, make sure that the VA

maintains beds to treat addictions. No vet wanting help should be

turned away from the VA.

Thank you for the opportunity to be here.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jones, thank you for that very powerful testimony. I think it makes us all aware of the fact that delay is denial, and you have made that point very clear. The ordeal that you

suffered, had we been there at the time when you needed to get

inpatient treatment through a halfway house, it might have lessened some of the suffering that you have been through. But your

point is very well taken and I think impresses not only members

but staff, and we will do everything we can to make sure that those

beds are there. Thank you very much.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Jones appears on p. 209.]

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask Mr. Selfon if he would

present his testimony.

STATEMENT OF LEONARD SELFON

Mr. SELFON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and other distinguished

members of the committee. There is little I can say that can add

to the powerful statement of Mr. Jones, and I thank him for sharing that with us today.

I would imagine, as does this committee, that as to the plight of

our homeless veterans, we are hopeful that this legislation will

produce powerful outcomes without lengthy delays and advance assistance to them.

We all recognize that veterans make up a significant percent of

the general homeless populations in the United States, and we

appreciate this opportunity to testify regarding H.R. 2716 and H.R.

936.

A more detailed statement of our positions is reflected in our

written statement. However, I would like to highlight those provisions in the proposed legislation where our views diverge some-
50

what. Nevertheless, VVA is generally supportive of both of these

important bills.

With respect to H.R. 2716 and the responsibility of Federal agencies, the Department of Housing and Urban Development has not

carved out dollars that would easily bind with VA dollars for homeless veteran housing and assistance programs. And how ironic it is

that HUD has designed its McKinney Grants under consolidated

plans that essentially have eliminated transitional housing from its

considered recipients and yet the VA cannot afford to offer anything other than transitional housing within its grants.

Matching dollars are required for these Federal grants, for without a fit and linkage of grants, nonprofit agencies are often unable

to locate money for this match. Respectfully, VVA urges this committee to require HUD to address its responsibility to cooperate

with the VA.

We also ask this committee to ensure that HUD designates a

reasonable portion of its homeless dollars to veteran-specific programs. The linkage of HUD homeless programs—excuse me, homeless veteran programs and specific dollars to the VA will thereby

consolidate funding and make more efficient and effective utilization of Federal dollars.

We also believe that the Department of Labor and the Department of Health and Human Services likewise operate programs for

homeless veterans and should be held accountable for the programs

that they administer to assist those persons.

With regard to Section 3, VVA believes that an increase in the

per diem rate given to VVA homeless grant recipients must be increased for residential programs from $19 per day per veteran to

an amount equal to the rate given by the VA to State veterans

nursing homes.

The VA per diem rate presently given to homeless veterans services and centers is $1.10 per half hour of service provided to homeless veterans while he or she is on location. However, case management in the coordination of services to include outside agencies extends far beyond that time that the homeless veterans is on site

at the service center, and we recommend that a more reasonable

and equitable per diem rate must be considered if service centers

are to exist and function as an integral component to a continuum

of service delivery with effective outcomes.

With regard to Section 6 and the joint methodology to monitor

the results of services furnished to homeless veterans, VVA does

not support this measure of the bill as the language we believe is

too vague to explain Congress’ intent. We therefore request a more

detailed explanation from the committee because it is within the

VA’s own selection committee that these grantees are selected

from. Why not get it right the first time and use this money for

other much-needed homeless veterans programs?

With regard to Section 8, authorizing of additional domiciliary

care programs, last fiscal year the VA reported an increase of 26

percent in the number of veterans who are homeless. This number

included veterans who received care in VA programs specifically

designed for specialized programs, including substance abuse treatment and the domiciliary care program.
51

The reduction in funding for the treatment of seriously mentally

ill veterans who are homeless can be directly linked to the reduction in funding for substance treatment programs. In other words,

the VA has been creating homeless veterans at a rate faster than

Congress can devise, pass and fund new programs to help reduce

homelessness among veterans. It is time that we all recognize this

fact. VVA does not support this provision of the bill and believes

that domiciliary programs located within various medical centers

throughout the VA system have proven to be very costly and have

long-standing problems that do not display a high degree of

success.

During this time of fiscal restraint, programs assisting homeless

veterans need to show a cost-benefit ratio in order to survive, and

we believe that if additional domiciliary care programs are indeed

established, they need to link directly with community-based operations which been proven to be more than cost efficient and beneficial to homeless veterans.

As we said earlier, we generally support passage of both bills

swiftly as drafted with those exceptions. We believe that it is essential to provide additional funding sources to community-based

veterans’ service providers as well as local chapters and posts of

national veterans groups that provide essential and desperately

needed services in a holistic manner to veterans who are homeless

or at significant risk of becoming homeless.

We thank the committee for finally bringing this homeless veterans issue to the forefront. However, we remain somewhat puzzled

at the political implications that somehow have attached themselves to this issue. It is important that the leadership of both

Houses set aside their differences and come together for a more

meaningful solution that would provide a better way of life for

those men and women who served our country.

Mr. SELFON. The original intent was to end homelessness in the

veterans population within 10 years. We haven’t heard much of

that until now and we are very gratified to see that goal is renewed. These services cannot operate in a vacuum, however, but

only within the context of a working VA and a VA which must

have full funding in order for its specialized services to succeed.

Once again on behalf of VVA, I would like to express our gratitude to you in providing us the opportunity to address this important legislation. Thank you very much.

[The prepared statement of Vietnam Veterans of America appears on p. 213.]

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Selfon, for your testimony and

reminding the committee that this is a multi-pronged effort, and

we have tried, as I think you know, to work not just with the Budget Committee but with the appropriators as well so that anything

we pass out of this committee we have allocations for it and appropriated dollars for it, because I don’t want to be in the business of

‘‘nice try, but,’’ and we don’t come forward with a meaningful program that is fully funded.

I would like to ask our final witness, Mr. Schneider, from the

NCOA, if he will come to the witness table.
52

STATEMENT OF RICHARD SCHNEIDER

Mr. SCHNEIDER. Thank you, sir. Mr. Smith, members of the committee, I would like to say something first. I am glad that you are

here doing the legislative affairs business of the United States of

America. I think it shows the world who we are and the stamina

we have in view of the atrocities that we have just suffered, and

I thank you that you have the guts and determination and fortitude to continue with this hearing and I thank you for that on

behalf of our association.

I am going to submit my statement for the record, and I am

going to make some comments that I would like to share with the

group regarding homelessness. I would like to start the comments

by saying homelessness is not over. It was alluded to by Mr. Simmons earlier today that VA is there to take care of the liver and

the hands and the broken limbs and what have you.

I have talked this morning with people from the Engineering

Battalion at Fort Belvoir who have been working at the Pentagon,

taking out the remains of people—hands, fingers, legs, body parts—

and bagging them individually. I will tell you 18- and 19-year-old

soldiers are going to need an adjustment period now, and in the

years ahead they are going to reflect the trauma that they have experienced and the trauma of war that has been experienced by others who spoke today. And I will tell you something, I am just sadder than hell that Fran Murphy isn’t sitting right here to have

heard the statements that were made today, and I will tell you and

I will tell you very pointedly we need those 10 dorms that you are

recommending in your legislation, we need them so that no veteran

is turned away. But I will tell you tragically also those 10 dorms

will only provide 500 bed spaces for the 300,000-plus veterans

across America that are homeless today, but it is a good start if we

would start using some of our other facilities. If we would begin to

open up some of the wards that we closed and if we started treating the small groups and, you know, you don’t have to have 50 people in a dorm. You can take care of people across America in twos

and threes, and by God, you can open up some of those bed spaces

and take care of them. That is where our money was put for VA

to take care of American’s veterans.

I will tell you I honestly believe Tony Principi and his motivation

to care for America’s veterans. The Non Commissioned Officers Association in July held a homeless veteran forum in Orlando, Florida, and at that forum we brought together all of the VA medical

centers in the State of Florida, all of the vet centers in the State

of Florida. We brought together distinguished leaders such as

Linda Boone and others from the New England Shelter of Homeless, from the Florida Volunteers of America, Pete Dougherty from

the Department of Veterans Affairs, representatives of Housing

and Urban Development, and you know what the biggest thing in

that group was the communication that took place.

We need the Advisory Council to tell the Secretaries what is

going on because these people aren’t hearing it from their filters.

We need the Interagency Council to have their asses kicked, those

Cabinet members to be told by you, sir, that we need you to start

talking and we need you to have these meetings and then we need

also to tell them we know you are not the principal that does the
53

work, you have got a staff advisory underneath these interagency

representatives and we need to energize them to get back on the

job and start focusing on the issues and policies that are necessary

for homelessness.

It is absolutely ironic that we have programs that we don’t really

study enough. Chapter 8 vouchers, we don’t have enough of them.

You know that, and you are asking for more. But do you know a

veteran who goes through the dual addiction process, that goes

through the resident program, that comes out of the domiciliary,

goes into a training program, gets a job here in Washington, DC

and becomes a GS–4, the bottom end of the spectrum. $22,180, his

annual pay. But he brings with him all the debt, all the burden

that he had before and all of the cost for making the adjusting and

the transition of having nothing to now moving out and he is

disenfranchised from the Chapter 8 program because the limit is

$22,000. So he doesn’t qualify.

And HUD, that is the bottom end. The top end of the program,

I am going to throw this one out at you. We are making old people

homeless veterans. We have homeless veterans today that are disabled, that are applying through HUD for assisted living, and they

are being denied assisted living housing because they are getting

compensation from the Department of Veterans Affairs and that

compensation counts toward their means testing and they are disqualified for assisted living housing. There is something wrong

with these policies. We need to talk with people. We go out to the

Washington VA Medical Center, a great group of people; 48 chapters, eight housing slots, vouchers out there. 48, Washington. Look

around the streets. We need more vouchers right here in Washington. I said when have you asked for more, and they haven’t, not

yet but they are going to. We are going to encourage that. It is

about time. Fran Murphy, where the hell are you?

I will tell you this, health care for homeless veterans, the HCHV

program is dynamic, where people care, and where people don’t

care it is poor, and I almost said something else. It is poor. And

I will keep that word because I don’t want to be thrown out of here

just yet.

I know the red light is on, and I have about three other things

I would like to say, and that is, number one, we do need the dorms.

Linda addressed prevention. I have seen the need for a prevention

program for years and I will tell you what, standdowns are great

but they bring people together, and right after the standdown people wait 362 days for the next one and I am sick and tired of being

part of standdowns that don’t look beyond standdowns. I am sick

and tired of the staffs at standdowns that stop when the thing is

over and celebrate the victory. Well, the victory is not won until the

veteran is in the program that can help him and the victory is not

won until the veteran is pure enough mentally, physically and socially to get a job and to fight the shackles of homelessness.

I wrote in my statement—I am only going to quote one statement: VHA and the reduction of shift from inpatient to outpatient

really denied an awful lot of veterans the opportunity and the help

that they needed. It saved VA a lot of money and cost savings is

great if you are a resource manager. I will bet a number of division

directors got good bonuses based on that savings, but our veterans
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paid for it. This man paid for it and they should have never paid

for it. They should have had the facilities available. If we have to

talk and talk hard to VA, we need to go to the united front and

do that discussion and bring those programs on.

When I was in Florida and I had everybody together and community providers together, the lack of communication was overwhelming. When we talked a grant program I will tell you very frankly

my observation, and that is the people out there don’t know how

to handle the volume of HUD regulations, VA regulations, State

regulations, and interpretations by third parties. They need somebody with the moxy, the skill, and the executive experience to run

a program to go out and educate.

Linda Boone and her National Coalition for Homeless Veterans,

we support that initiative and we will argue for them to get that

grant because they need to go out. You just cannot go into a program that is saturated with every minute of the day and find the

time to write a grant. It just doesn’t work. You don’t get volunteers

to come in and write grants. You have to do it yourself and you

need help in finding out how to do it and finding people like Linda

and people that can be trained to go out there and do that and do

it extremely well.

I talked about communication and I will tell you we have many

good people out there. They need all the help they can get and they

need the resources. I like both of your proposed legislation, I like

them very much, but I will tell you this, and it is the summary

statement in my statement, and the statement is this.

Earlier today when the room was mournful, almost everybody in

here commented on Heather French Henry and what she did for

America by highlighting homelessness among veterans. She carried

that torch not only to the homeless veterans, to the people that

work homeless programs, but she carried it to the leadership of

America. I think very hard and I believe our association believes

very strongly when this legislation is passed, it should have the

name Heather French Henry Homeless Veteran Assistance Act of

2001. She deserves that recognition as America’s advocate for

homeless veterans and I throw that out to you.

Thank you.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Schneider appears on p. 222.]

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Schneider, thank you very much. Spoken

like a true New Jerseyan. I appreciate your comments and I had

read your prepared statement and I think I like this one better.

Having read your statements and heard your oral presentations,

you have really—where there were things you think are missing

from our legislation, you certainly made that clear and you juxtaposed the two bills as to what you think are the positives in each.

I have no further questions. I wonder if our distinguished chairman of the Benefits Committee does.

Mr. SIMPSON. No, Mr. Chairman. I don’t have any further questions. I do want to thank the panel. There were words from New

Jersey I don’t quite understand. We don’t have those words—no,

just kidding. But I appreciate your testimony. Mr. Jones, that was

very moving testimony and I will look forward to working with the

chairman in order to blend these two bills we have together in hoping to address this issue.
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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. I especially would like to

thank Mr. Jones for having the courage to come forward, and his

testimony was not only heard by all here but through the publication of our hearing record and I plan on using it during debate and

to just underscore to our colleagues, as did some of the folks in that

second panel, exactly what is happening. When you come forward

and tell that story, believe me, it is helping other veterans and it

is sharpening our focus hopefully like a laser beam. This cannot

continue like this any longer.

So I thank you, and this will be a bipartisan bill we work on and

in the best traditions of this committee, and again, Mr. Jones,

thank you for that testimony. Thank you all.

Without objection, we do have four submissions of testimony I

would like to make a part of the record. So ordered. And without

any further comments I want to thank you again for being here.

The hearing is adjourned.

(See pp. 230 to 244.)

[Whereupon, at 4:40 p.m., the committee was adjourned

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WRITTEN COMMITTEE QUESTIONS AND THEIR RESPONSES
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CONGRESSMAN EVANS TO ROY A. BERNARDI, ASSISTANT SECRETARY,

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT
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CONGRESSMAN EVANS TO THE AMERICAN LEGION

THE AMERICAN LEGION

Washington, DC, October 23, 2001.

Hon. LANE EVANS,

Ranking Democratic Member, Committee on Veterans’ Affairs,

House of Representatives, Washington, DC.

DEAR REPRESENTATIVE EVANS: The following is in response to your inquiry regarding the September 20, 2001 hearing.

1. Homeless veterans not only face enormous problems of just surviving, many also

have serious mental illness, substance abuse or both. Is VA today meeting the care

needs of veterans with serious mental illness, substance abuse or both?

No. Mental health care is very fragmented across the system. There is no consistent approach to treating homeless veterans in a holistic environment. VA has reduced its bed capacity to the point where it can no longer provide inpatient detoxification or allow patients sufficient time to stabilize after an exacerbation of symptoms. Homeless veterans end up back on the streets because there is simply a lack

of VA bed capacity to keep them inpatient long enough to address their complex social issues. Addiction, PTSD and other mental illnesses do not develop overnight

and cannot be treated with stop-gap measures.

If VA truly intends to end homelessness it should:

• Be able to stabilize these patients,

• Provide veterans and their families with the safe housing they need,

• Provide medical, psychiatric and dental care to improve their functional status,

• Involve family members in counseling and treatment planning,

• Refer veterans and their families to BVA to file claims,

• Develop educational opportunities in the community,

• Offer spiritual support through the Chaplain program, and

• Ensure employment training (CWT) and placement. Home ownership should be

the ultimate goal of a program that addresses these other needs first.

This intense level of care needs to be funded and VA currently does not have the

resources to invest in its mental health programs, which are labor intensive and involve high pharmaceutical costs. The CARES process should be looking at the unused space VA has and assess its usefulness in providing the housing and other program components described above,, instead of just contracting this level of care to

the private sector. This practice shifts the burden to the community, which results

in much of the fragmentation already experienced by veterans needing care. This

also makes the veterans’ progress or decomposition difficult to tract, resulting in delayed intervention and potentially increases the need for more complex services.

Families are often ignored and left out of the process and should be included in

the treatment and homeless veterans, especially if there are spouses and children

also left homeless. Veterans and their families should be assessed for being at risk

for homelessness and VA should be able to intervene with services and involve the

Regional Office for claims, if warranted.

2. Is VA providing enough outreach and technical assistance to end homelessness

among veterans in a decade?

No. If VA were able to provide these services consistently, it would not take a decade to end homelessness in our veteran population. But, since services are fragmented and funding is separate then each section of VA that has an area of responsibility it covers conducts their own outreach. In some ways, this duplicates efforts

and may not necessarily get a veteran to the right level of care that he or she needs.

It gets veterans to what is available or provides crisis intervention, but no real longterm solutions to their problems. Hence, The American Legion remains skeptical

that VA will not be able to end homelessness in a ten years if it continues on its

current track. If VA could implement a more holistic approach then this goal could

very well be attained in half that time.

3. According to VA data, the DCHV program is providing less outreach to homeless

veterans and significantly reducing the average length of veterans’ stay in domiciliaries. The percentage of veterans who complete the program is too low and for those

who complete the program only about 50 percent have a job or housing on program

completion. Please comment on these disturbing trends.
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Given the conclusion The American Legion as described in questions 1 and 2, this

is not surprising. This lack of success in reducing homelessness epitomizes the inherent problem in a system that fragments care, shifts it to the community, and

under funds its efforts. Until VA is able to institute a comprehensive program that

begins with inpatient hospitalization stabilization and moves veterans through a series of health, educational, and employment services in a safe and healing environment, then will it be able to reduce the recidivism rate of veterans who return to

the streets, decompensate, and are re-hospitalized.

The American Legion appreciates the opportunity to clarify its position on ending

homelessness among veterans in America. In several states, The American Legion

runs or is familiar with homeless veterans’ programs and would be available to further discuss the recommendations it has outlined in this response. There are models

for success in the community that could be studied for their lesions learned to help

build an inclusive VA homeless veterans’ program.

Sincerely,

JACQUELINE GARRICK, ACSW, CSW, CTS

Deputy Director, Health Care, National Veterans Affairs and Rehabilitation

Commission
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CONGRESSMAN EVANS TO AMERICAN FEDERATION OF GOVERNMENT

EMPLOYEES
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