Building Personal Resilience

Voiceover

00:00

Welcome to The Beat—a podcast series from the COPS Office at the Department of Justice. Featuring 

interviews with experts from a varied field of disciplines, The Beat provides law enforcement with the 

latest developments and trending topics in community policing.

Jennifer Donelan

00:16

Hello, everyone. I'm Jennifer Donelan with The Beat. Thank you for joining us. Today we're going to be 

discussing the Madison, Wisconsin, Police Department's Building Personal Resilience project. It focuses 

on officer wellness and resilience through a structured, evidence-based training system, intended to 

improve officers' emotional wellbeing, ability to dissipate and cope with stress, and self-regulation. A lot 

of big words there. These are hot button issues. And at the end of the day the whole point is to get our 

officers to a place where they have less stress in their lives. So we've got two very important guests with 

us, who are going to help us manage through all of that intense information and get our officers healthy. 

So guests joining us over the internet, this is going to be a remote conversation, an important 

conversation nonetheless. Joining us are Mary Schauf, a retired captain with the Madison Police 

Department, and Dr. Sandra Ramey from the University of Iowa's College of Nursing. Welcome. Thank 

you so much for speaking with us today.

Captain Mary Schauf

01:22

Thank you.

Dr. Sandra Ramey

01:23

Thank you.

Donelan

01:24

Captain Schauf, I'm going to start with you. Now you're retired, presumably living that proverbial life of 

leisure, does it still feel familiar when someone refers to you as Captain? How should I refer to you, are 

we still Captain?

Schauf

01:36

Well, it feels very familiar, but please call me Mary for today.
Donelan

01:40

Okay, Mary, I can do that. Let's start off with you. Start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and 

your career.

Schauf

01:47

I'll start with a little bit of when I kind of first became aware of just even the whole the policing 

profession. When I was in grad school I studied exercise physiology and one of the interesting things at 

that time—and this is like 30-plus years ago—is that the exercise physiology profession had noted that 

policing in general and police officers seem to have cardiovascular disease and problems at a greater 

rate than the rest of the public. And so it was one of the topics of discussion in that learning 

environment. And I found it fascinating. And at that time I think it was believed that, well, if we just... if 

they exercised more, ate better, did these physical things, that that would just take care of all these 

problems. After my education, I joined the police department. I was a police officer for 29 years., went 

through the ranks, did some of those kinds of things, working in the field, working with the community, 

et cetera. And then landed in the training team at my department, which was the City of Madison Police. 

So that's where this project comes into play, is at that point.

And I can tell you that these same questions that were being asked 30, 30-plus years ago, are still being 

asked today. How do we help cops be healthier? How do we help them improve the, you know, the 

quality of life? Because we don't want our cops to retire and go into retirement angry or sick, and then 

have had those shortened life expectancies.

Donelan

03:25

Well, it's a very real, real issue. Because we're talking about a profession that these men and women 

have chosen that is laden with stress. It's laden with crisis management. It's laden with decisions and 

time constraints. And everything that really... their whole life becomes focused on policing. So what are 

the real-world aspects from your 29 years in policing, that makes an officer—that you saw—that makes 

an officer's ability to manage stress such a critical part of the profession? How important is it that they 

manage stress?

Schauf

04:04

Oh, it's everything and it starts right away. It's—and you really hit a lot of those in your comments, 

Jennifer—it's the physical aspects of the work, with maintaining even the fitness levels to do the work 

itself. The challenges when officers are on calls for service and dealing with people who are really having 

challenges of their own and having the potential for, you know, being attacked in the workplace and 

dealing with victims who are suffering greatly that you identify with, so that vicarious trauma. And then 

there's the whole other side of it that I don't know that the public always sees as much, but the cops will 

relate to this. It's that vacation that got denied, when your whole family's got this big event going. It's 
the missed holidays and the stress that you get from home, because now home is not happy because 

you're away from your family obligation. Or the call back to duty for emergencies or court, all of that 

stuff is all real, real world for the cops. They'll understand that it's not just the calls for service, but also 

their agencies and some of these things that are structured into the work.

Donelan

05:13

I think that's the part that people don't think about. It's the thing that you don't see glamorized in 

movies and television shows. It's those decisions, those really tough decisions that they have to make, 

that, “Hey, I'm not going to be at graduation.” Or, “Hey, we're going to take two different cars in case 

mom or dad has to leave the recital, because something has happened and I need to go to work.” It's 

just always being on the phone and not really being present in their everyday lives, even when they're 

not at work. So managing that stress, as you said, that's a potentially fatal situation for them. We see 

that quite a bit in first-responder situations where we have officers, even firefighters, who are dying of

heart attacks quite literally on the job. So I applaud you for taking this on, because there really is a real 

need there.

Given those factors at the Madison Police Department, it's like many other departments throughout the 

country, finding ways to enhance officer safety and wellness, consistently evolving, always evolving. 

What measures did Madison Police Department have in place prior to working with Dr. Ramey, who 

we're about to hear from? What measures did you have in place prior to working with her, and what 

was the impetus for pursuing the program?

Schauf

06:25

Well, so the department's been looking at this for many years. And obviously a lot of focus on the fitness 

aspects of what's needed for the policing profession. But also we've even started talking to cops about, 

you know, what are you eating? Are you getting adequate sleep? And all of these kinds of things. So 

we're talking about those things in our workplace, as well as collaborations with Employee Assistance 

Programming to add that layer in. And then, even with Madison Police, we were doing some other work 

in the mindfulness arena with the Center for Healthy Minds, which is at the University. So there are a lot 

of different things and I think we were looking to be progressive and proactive. Maybe the proactive 

piece, because we know that we can't just solve these things once the harm is done, it's about 

prevention.

Donelan

07:16

So there this tipping point? Was there this incident? Or was it just this realization that there was this 

need, and constantly sort of knowing that, and then trying to come up with different ways to handle 

that? How did that work out for you guys?
Schauf

07:31

I can tell you from my personal experience, really, in looking at... I have seen people leave the profession 

and leave angry, where it has really harmed them in their lives. I've seen the—as a captain in my 

agency—I've seen the devastation of people who have strokes and are having heart problems. And 

they're young people. They're having these problems and it's really impacting their life and their 

wellbeing. And so, you see this going on amongst your friends, your colleagues, and so I think that the 

piece for me—and I think we all see it—it's like, what do we do about this? How do we improve this? So 

that's why you go looking for these solutions and when we came upon this piece with the HeartMath 

and Resilience Advantage, which is what we're talking about today, and found that Dr. Ramey is really 

an expert in the area... And so as we looked to incorporate this in, we reached out to her. 

Donelan

08:35

Thanks, Mary. And wasting no more time, let's get straight to Dr. Ramey. Your program of research 

investigates the relationship between cardiovascular disease risk factors and cardiovascular disease 

morbidity in law enforcement. And it has extended to more than 17 departments in the United States 

and Hawaii. Good on you to include the work that you conducted in support of the Madison Police 

Department. Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself, your area of research, and how 

you came to work with the Madison Police Department on interventions to modify how officers react to 

stress? 

Ramey

09:10

Sure, I'd be happy to. This intervention that we employed in Madison and in several other police 

departments recently, including the Milwaukee Police Department, really is the culmination of a couple 

of decades of research. When I was a graduate student, a long, long time ago, my dissertation was one 

of the largest ever done in law enforcement, to look at the prevalence of cardiovascular disease in nine 

Midwestern states. And from then, we pursued other risk factors to better understand them. We looked 

at the prevalence of retirees, and how prevalent cardiovascular disease was in the retired population. 

We've looked at biomarkers, those meaning, things like C-reactive protein, hemoglobin A1c, lots of 

different blood markers that tell us what kind of risk officers are in as they work. We also looked at 

things like sleep and vital exhaustion, physical activity monitoring, where officers would wear a heart

rate monitor for like three days on the job, three days off, and so forth. And it became really clear in 

about the last five or six years that we do have enough indisputable data that there is a higher 

prevalence of cardiovascular disease and morbidity in the profession of law enforcement.

But not a lot of people are pursuing research-founded interventions to try to reduce that. We've done 

things like look at shift work and different patterns of the way the job is. But the truth of it is you really 

will never be able to control all the aspects of stress that police officers encounter. So about five or six 

years ago, the Dean of the College of Public Health at the University of Iowa brought me into the 

forefront of this HeartMath program, that is the Resilience Advantage program that addresses stress 
and some new ways to help people mitigate stress. And when I heard about it, I said, "Well, I'll send the 

research assistant to see about that." And he said, "No, I think you should go personally and get some 

information on it." So I went to a five- or six-day class about this in Boulder Creek, Colorado—excuse me, 

California—and came back with a whole new idea about how this might interface with law enforcement, 

and the things that we already know are risk factors in the profession. So that's kind of how I got 

connected with the program; as far as connected with Madison, I was asked by their EAP program to 

speak at a CIB conference about five years ago.

And I kind of surmised that when Mary asked me to be the program evaluator for this particular project, 

that she probably interfaced with the Employee Assistance Program and maybe even attended that 

program, as well as my reputation for work in this area. So I served as the program evaluator and 

consulted on other aspects of the project as well.

Donelan

11:58

So Sandy, let's go back to the beginning about what you said. What was it about law enforcement? I 

mean, you have been focused on this for a long time, and you're talking about one of the largest studies 

ever done. Was there something specific about law enforcement? Was it in your family? What was it 

that drew you to that?

Ramey

12:14

It was very, very serendipitous how it happened. I was having coffee with a good friend at Barnes & 

Noble one day and her husband is a cardiologist and I was talking to her about, "I have to think of 

something to do for my dissertation, I really want it to be cardiovascular-focused," because I had worked 

for years in the coronary department at several different hospitals here in Des Moines. And I would see 

people come in and we would help them get better, but the recidivism rate of people coming back to

the hospital with other health-related issues with cardiovascular disease was really prevalent. She said, 

"You know, you really should work with Dr. Warren Franke up at Iowa State, because he works with the 

Iowa State Patrol. And they have a really high prevalence of cardiovascular disease." And I thought that 

was an interesting suggestion so I interviewed with Dr. Franke and he became my major professor at 

Iowa State. And the rest is history. I got hooked on this, and it just, it seemed like the perfect profession 

to try to help and pursue, and help some of these things that we see in the general population not be 

quite so prevalent in the profession of law enforcement.

Donelan

13:20

When you're in the profession and world of law enforcement, it's really easy to put blinders on. And sort 

of the rest of the world sort of melts away and you become really highly focused. As someone who sort 

of came in from the outside, was there something that you noticed because you talked about the shift 

work? We've talked about some of the different levels and types of stress that police officers face, but in 
your work was there something specific that you've sort of seen with police officers? You know nurses 

do shift work, is there something different though about law enforcement specifically that you've really 

sort of identified as a real concern with that group of people?

Ramey

14:00

One thing that comes to mind with that is the concept of the hyper-vigilance. I've heard through 

interviews and personal conversations over the years, many officers have said to me, "When I go out to 

eat with my family, I still sit so I can see the door at McDonald's. " Or, "I'm constantly on. I have trouble 

making that transition from my job to my home." And comparing that to nursing and some of the other 

professions with shift work, I think that it's a lot more heightened in the profession of law enforcement, 

that people don't stop being a police officer when they pull in the driveway and they go home, that 

concept of hyper-vigilance. And I think my personal opinion is that I think that lends itself to the stress 

carrying over. And the stress and the higher heart rates continuing after the workday is over. I can give 

you an example of—in one of the studies that I did—where the officers wore the heart rate monitors for 

three days on, three days off, 24 hours. I had one officer in particular I was really concerned about, 

because during his sleep cycle his heart rate never went below 110, which is considered tachycardic, 

which is a high heart rate for during the day or sleep.

And I've just seen that over and over, that concept of really being so engaged in the job, that it's hard to 

turn it off, and it becomes part of the person that they are. And the other thing that I would have to say 

that I've seen in multiple departments is, officers are not as aware as you might think about the risk 

factors that they are up against in the profession. And that's why in Milwaukee and some other 

departments we've tried to start indoctrinating that into the culture of the academy, so that officers 

understand some of the risk factors that are prevalent in their profession, and can start early to mitigate 

some of that.

Donelan

15:47

And Mary, listening to Sandy talk just now, 29 years in the profession, that hypervigilance, the basic 

thought that their job basically... the job never ends. You're on the job. You're on the job to the day you 

retire. Would you absolutely agree with that?

Schauf

16:01 

Oh, I absolutely agree with that. And I'd say that even after the day you retire that there is still a 

tremendous period where you're still adjusting.
Donelan

16:11

It just never turns off. And that means that's around the clock. You're talking about, you know, heart 

beats at a 110 while sleeping. You know, there are other jobs that you're not experiencing that with. So 

that is a large concern. I agree with you that the sort of lack of awareness internally among law 

enforcement, because—and Mary, I want to ask you about that—the officers themselves, they're so 

focused on what they're doing, that really they're sort of... themselves is an afterthought?

Schauf

16:39

I think in some cases it is. And I think that's probably a good way to say it. Because, you know, when I 

think back to even my experience, when I learned... when you're learning to become a cop, and you're, 

you're learning, "this is how you handle things," but you also have to learn to get yourself into that zone 

where you're an effective police officer, you're poised, you're ready to respond, you're ready to deal 

with whatever comes up. And it does... there is a process you go through as you prepare to be an officer, 

and that's the piece where you've now got thousands and thousands of repetitions in that space. 

Donelan

17:15

Let's get to the meat of this. What exactly—and Mary, I'm going to start with you—what exactly does 

the Building Personal Resilience project involve? What are the components of the program, and then, 

how was it implemented through your department, Madison Police?

Schauf

17:31

So for this piece of our project we were bringing in the personal resilience. And we used a product we've 

mentioned a little bit earlier here. It was the HeartMath product. It's called Resilience Advantage. And 

what we wanted to do... essentially, Resilience Advantage in a nutshell is, it's a series of... it's a physical 

trained skill. It's usually done through breathing. But there's also an emotional piece where you're trying 

to connect back to yourself and use what's inherent in you. And I'll let—Sandy can give you the textbook 

definition a lot better than I can—but it's essentially using those techniques to resolve the emotional 

step, the physiological state that you go through, as you go through your day as a cop. And so we used 

this tool because it was something that we could give, it was a deliverable. We could say to our cops, 

this is what it is. This is how it'll help. This is how you do it. And it's something easy enough that I can 

have a call for service that really makes me angry, I can go back to my squad car, and I can take a couple 

of minutes, and I can use these tools to reset. So that when I go to my next call for service, I can come 

back at them and I can be that professional cop that I'm trained to be and not just respond from an 

emotional state. Or if the call is something that really was really traumatic for me, for whatever reason, I 

can use these same techniques to recover from those. It's the whole resilience part, which is that quickrecovery piece.
So with our program, we had initially started with our academy. And we had started training in our 

police academy as this was one of those core tools. We teach our cops not only how to do the work, but 

when you're done with the work, this is how you prepare, or prepare to do the work, and then reset 

after things are triggers for you, so that you can be a resilient person in the workplace. So we had 

already started our piece in our academy. One of the things that we run into is, you know, we have an 

agency and you start training your new people, and then your older people are like, "What are you 

talking about?" 

So we thought it was really important to come back and train all of our cops. And that was really what 

this project and the grant was about, was getting the capacity to train all of our commissioned cops, or 

at least a big chunk of them. So what we did is that we trained officers to train other cops, or train the 

trainer model, and then try to incorporate it both as in-service type regular training. So we put a piece of 

it in that in-service piece, and then another piece where we try to do it in some smaller group work. So 

that all of our commissioned officers had at least a base exposure to the techniques. Some officers, to 

the extent possible in the short period of time we had, they got even a more intensive look at the 

material.

Donelan

20:56

Right now really wanting to know a little bit more about, what exactly is the training? Like, what is the 

technique? Because what I'm taking from you, it sounds like it's a breathing technique. Mindfulness, 

perhaps. But I could have that completely wrong. I'm going to turn to Sandy now and ask you—as Mary 

had alluded to—can you give us sort of the textbook definition, but in layman's terms?

Ramey

21:19

I sure can. And as far as how the training is implemented, as Mary said, usually officers take anywhere 

from a two- to a six-hour class. And when they take this, they learn about the prevalence of risk factors 

in the profession. They learn a little bit about the physiology of the heart and the respiratory system. 

They learn and talk about a lot of the common scenarios that they are involved in, like domestic disputes 

and so forth, in the profession. And so, it, the course, really involves a lot more than just breathing. And 

when we say to people that the underpinning of what we're going to ask you to do is to learn to use 

your breathing better, a lot of times people react like, "Well, I know how to breathe. " Or, "I learned 

how to breathe in the military, " or whatever. But what this does is, physiologically, it helps to maximize 

the effects of your breathing. And the techniques that I'm going to tell you about in just a minute, that 

breathing is not new. When you think about it, when you're some place and you have a crying child, the 

first thing that you say is, "Stop and breathe." Or when I used to work in the emergency room, when 

somebody comes in having a panic attack, the first thing we would say is, "Breathe. Look at me and 

breathe and mirror what I'm doing. " 

So nobody disputes the power of breathing, but what this does is it harnesses it in a way that people—if 

done correctly and practiced, and practice is an extremely important component of this—they can 

actually stimulate what's called the vagus nerve, which is the part of your parasympathetic nervous 
system. Big words, but simple effect: calm you down. The sympathetic part of your nervous system 

innervates your heart. That's called the fight or flight reaction. When you go to a call or you're afraid 

about something, or something frightens you, that system is innervated. And then when you start to 

breathe deeper, the parasympathetic nervous system, the vagal system, starts to take over and slows 

that heart rate. Now the techniques that I'll go over with, just briefly, are also not new. They've been 

used for, I think, probably close to five or six years or more now with pre-deployment troops in the Army 

and Navy. Professional athletes have used these breathing techniques for lots and lots of years. Mary 

and I talked about, when she was an exercise physiology student, about knowing that athletes use this.

But it has a couple of components that it might help you to kind of understand. And the first one is 

called heart rate variability. And what that means is, we used to think that to have a perfectly regular 

heartbeat... when you go to the doctor and he either listens... he or she listens to your heart, or takes 

your radio pulse... to have a regular interval between your heartbeats. We know now that a little bit of 

variation in there is really good, because that shows that people have the ability to react to different 

stimuli that come their way during the course of a certain day. As you age, your heart rate variability 

changes. It goes down as you age. Young people in their 20s at the academy have very high heart rate 

variability. But it's something that if you don't protect and practice with, it does deteriorate as you get 

older, as with many things. The other thing that's important to understand is a concept called 

coherence. And what coherence is, is an optimal state in which the heart, mind, and emotions are 

aligned and in sync.

And physiologically the immune system and hormonal and nervous systems also function in a state of 

energetic coordination. And that sounds very scientific, but what it means is that all of your systems are 

in harmony. And as human beings we all have that power through practice, again, to be able to do that 

deep breathing. And to be able to stimulate a physiologic response that calms people down. And Mary 

mentioned about the prep and sustain reset. That's an important part of the training, is from call to call, 

to be able to use this type of breathing on the way to a call, sustain it when you're working with people, 

and then to be able to reset, especially between those calls, so that when you go to the next one, you're 

not still hyped up and all excited and upset, or whatever, from the last call. And then that carries over to 

your relationship, and what ensues with the next one. It's also important to be able to do this when you 

work with people in the community.

One of the recruits in Milwaukee shared with me that one of the first times he used this on the job was 

with a person that had a mental health disorder. And to help calm that person down he said, "Just look 

at me, and I want you to look at me and try to breathe with me." And he was able to calm the individual 

down, just by him using the breathing techniques he had learned in class. And much like a child mirrors a 

parent, the person he was working with was able to mirror him and calm their breathing down. And the 

situation was much better handled, that it might not have been otherwise. So understanding those two 

things that resolved in a true physiologic response, again, are not new, but to be harnessed and put in a 

package that law enforcement officers can relate to and use that's germane to their job, is what's 

innovative about this program.
Donelan

26:13

Oh, I'm loving that example, about actually using this tool with others in an effort to calm them down.

The one thing that I really think is exciting about this, is that it's offering a possibility to these officers 

that you can take control back. You're not out of control. You may feel like you're out of control, but you 

can regain that control of how you're feeling, your heart rate, that you actually have the ability to get 

yourself back to a place of, you know, I say peace, but just to where you can deal and you're limiting the 

really negative, dangerous aspects of stress. So let's be real now at this point. We're talking about police 

officers. We're talking about deep breathing. We're talking about self-awareness. We're talking about, 

you know, what's the buy-in here? Did you face challenges? And talking to these folks, they're like, you 

know, they're running towards danger, and you're asking them to breathe. And to breathe in a specific 

way and to calm themselves down. What was the buy-in like at Madison Police Department, Mary?

Schauf

27:21

I think you've hit it, Jennifer. You hit it, it really varied. So we had some people who said, "What, you 

want me to breathe? Are you kidding? This is, it's just so stupid." They have other words for it, but you 

get the general... See, you had some people... you have that whole continuum, those people who say, "I 

don't want to do this." And we see that in cops. We see that no matter what we train where they're just 

not going to accept it. "I've been doing it this way so long, I don't need this." And then we have the 

opposite end of that. And the opposite end of that was we had people who said, "Hey, I'm struggling a 

bit." Or, "I've had some health problems, this might really help me." Or, "And I can take control over my 

life. I can take control over my health, and I can own this." And at least start to see, "Hey, this has 

something to offer me." So they get excited about it. And we did have some people who I know, who 

say, "Hey, can I use my sensor, because I want to show my spouse how this works because I think we 

could use this at home." And so you really did see the variations.

Donelan

28:35

How many people got trained in Madison?

Schauf

28:38

The number's up from where we were at the end of the project. We were close to 200 by the end of the 

project with training them on the entire program, but every new class that comes through is trained. 

And like many agencies, there's a lot of transition now, so those numbers keep flowing through as well. 

And then obviously some of them have left. We were able to train, like I said, about 200 of our existing 

officers. And then now we're training those other ones. 
Donelan

29:05

So just for perspective, like, would you say 30 percent of the department eventually got the training? Or, 

you know, just to, number-wise... 

Schauf

29:13

We have about 477 commissioned folks. So we got just under half. It actually is, we had planned that we 

would get fewer than that, but we were able to get more people trained during that short period of the 

grant, but the training continues...

Donelan

29:30

And Sandy, you've been a part of, as we discussed, when I was introducing you to the listeners, that this 

has extended to 17 departments in the United States and Hawaii. So you, Mary, can speak, I'm sure, 

very, very expertly on Madison, Wisconsin. What has your take been as you've been dealing with law 

enforcement on this? Has it been pretty much the same? Could you quantify? Is it a 50/50 people, you 

know, widely accept it? Or people give it the scoff, and they're like, "Yeah, right. Breathing, okay. That's 

going to help." What's been your experience?

Ramey

30:06

I can't really quantify it percentage-wise, but I would, if I did, it is definitely above 50 percent. But like I 

said before, and like you said too, it is kind of a generational thing. Because in several departments I've 

had older officers say, "I really wish I would have had something like this when I was at the academy," 

and identify the need of it retrospectively. But then, transversely, the new generation of recruits see 

what happens as an officer progresses in their career, and they don't want that to be them. And they 

seem to be much more in tune with health concepts and healthy living and healthy eating. And so that 

goes right along, hand-in-hand, with something else that they can do to try to mitigate some of the risk 

that they're being educated about. And one comment that you made about being able to do it yourself, 

you know, really, all you can control is yourself. And I think when people realize that, that you can't 

control what comes at you during a workday or what happens when you go home, or others' reactions, 

but that's really all you can do, is control yourself.

But I, when I teach the classes, I usually start out saying just what Mary said about, this is not a silver 

bullet. It's not for everyone. It may not work the same for everyone, but it is something that you have at 

your pleasure to use and it doesn't cost you anything to use and it's always with you and there is a ton of 

research to support that it works. 
Donelan

31:33

If you open your mind to this, it really is effective. What are the tactics, best tactics, best practices, in 

terms of getting this implemented, getting the buy-in? Are you having people who positively, you know, 

used this in their daily lives, and having them sort of testify to others, like, "This works for me, you need 

to learn how to do this?" What has worked and what hasn't worked in terms of trying to get those 

officers to buy into this?

Ramey

32:00

Well, so far what I've heard and seen from the groups that I've worked with over the last five years is 

they really would like to hear this from police officers. It seems like it's better received if you at least 

have a police officer in addition to a researcher. Or, have a couple of police officers trained to present 

this and that's one of the main things that comes out. And then the other thing is upfront to really 

explain to officers, "Why should I care about this? What will this do for me?" And so that kind of leads 

into, "You should care about this, because you're at risk for cardiovascular disease. When you retire, 

you're 70 percent more likely to have a heart attack and have CBD than your counterparts in the general 

population." And build into the presentation about why you should care about it. Because what I hear 

from people is they have so many aspects of training that they have to go to this, and they have to go to 

that, and they're—to use a cliché—a flash in the pan and they're never visited again. And they’re

somewhat skeptical about, is that what this is? Is this just the idea du jour about how to manage stress? 

So to try to impart that this is something that needs to be threaded through every aspect of the 

department. It needs to be on letterhead. It needs to be used to start at the beginning of meetings. It 

needs to be revisited at in-service. And to try to reassure them that this is not a flash in the pan. And if it

is, it won't work for you. It has to be something that you build upon and it's kind of a philosophical 

concept that everybody that's interested in needs to work together to keep going through the 

department. Mary and I have talked about that as next steps in Madison, about how to keep the fires 

burning, now that she’s gotten more than 50 percent of the... 

Donelan

33:40

Which is phenomenal, Mary, let me ask you, from the command level... and you talked about something 

very important, the generational gap. There seems to be more of a buy-in from the younger folks who 

have been more exposed to things like mindfulness and yoga. And, you know, those type of things. 

Whereas, you know, the older officers who are in command positions, many of them, and in positions 

where they're making the decisions about what's the training program going to look like. What are we 

going to focus on as a department moving forward? How are we going to keep our guys healthy, our 

ladies and gentlemen healthy? So from a command perspective, what sort of organizational, cultural 

changes do you need to overcome on a commander, supervisory level?
Schauf

34:27

We could spend hours talking about that, the responses. Because as we all know, changing a culture in 

an organization just takes so much time. Sandy alluded to a lot of these in her response. It’s that, you 

know, keeping the practices in front of people. But from a command level, one of the big, big things is

we need executive buy-in. So you need that top level buy-in, and then it's really super important... and 

we always forget, but our FTOs and our sergeants, so those field training officers and those sergeants, 

are probably more influential than what your captain thinks, or what your assistant chief thinks. And so, 

when those people buy in, and see that these tools are useful and can help... and we see that. And I got 

some examples I'll share with you. But when they see that, hey, maybe I'm this person on the edge 

saying, "That's stupid, that's stupid," and then all of a sudden I get stuck in this critical incident and I'm 

having a really bad response to it and now I find that my Employee Assistance folks are coming out and 

talking to me about the same thing I got trained on. Hey, they're talking to me about the same breathing 

thing that they trained me on and I left it on the shelf then, but maybe now it's something I can use. 

Maybe now it's something. 

You won't have that built up, that resiliency. But at least it's a time to start. I would prefer as a trainer to 

see people start right away. It's a physical skill. We want people to build that base, so it becomes 

routine. If I find myself getting stressed, I've done it now enough, I can just revert back. Hey, I feel what 

my body is doing, now I can feel what it's like to be coherent. I feel that, and now it's much easier to 

invoke that state of coherence because I know what it's like. Just like, it's the fitness analogy: If you're 

physically fit, you can bounce back better from exercise. Same with this. If you've practiced and you 

understand and you can feel what coherence feels like, when push comes to shove, and I get that call 

that really pushes all my buttons, I can say, "Okay, now I need to get back to that." 

Donelan

36:42

It is a skill that requires practice. So we have a platform right here and now, so let's spread the word. 

Let's really get into, you know, give me an example, like, what are we talking about? Give me like, okay, 

you're faced with this, what do I do? I can feel myself, like my blood pressure is rising, I'm facing some 

sort of stressful situation, I've walked away from a stressful situation, my hands are balled up, and what 

do I do?

Ramey

37:13

Well, I can answer that question. What you just described is the first step in what we call the quick 

coherence steps that we impart in the course. So step one is to focus your attention in the area of the 

heart. To think about how you're feeling in your chest, which is really something that most people don't 

do on a routine basis. And then imagine your breath is flowing in and out of your chest area and breathe 

a little more slowly, a little more deeply, than you usually do. And we suggest that people do this over 

the course of about five seconds and that they do this about five or six times. So you just become aware 

of how you're feeling. Because most of us don't do that either until after the fact. And then the second 
step that we impart to people is to try to attempt to experience some type of regenerative feeling, like 

appreciation or gratitude. And a lot of research has been done in the last 10 to 15 years that shows that 

when you think about being appreciative, or you think about things you're thankful for, or gratitude, 

that innervates that vagus nerve and helps your heart to slow down and also releases endorphins in 

your bloodstream that have physiologic effects, other, beyond your heart.

So it's the combination of those two things to stop and increase your awareness. Think about your chest. 

Purposely breathe, and get more oxygen blood flow to your heart. But at the same time, that deep 

sensation of breathing is innervating that vagus nerve to slow down your heart a little bit, and to 

improve that heart rate variability that we've talked about a while longer, or a while ago, and then in 

combination with that, it's not about going to your happy place, or anything like that. It's focusing, 

psychologically, for just a few seconds, on whatever it is that makes you feel thankful or grateful, or 

appreciative, and just doing that. You don't even have to close your eyes to do it, nobody even has to 

know when you're doing it.

Donelan

39:04

And the beautiful thing, I think the thing that people will appreciate is, nobody even needs to know that 

you're doing it. It's not sitting there with your legs crossed and humming ohms. It's not looking at 

yourself in the mirror and saying, "I like you." It's literally being self-aware of your body, focusing on 

your chest. When you talk about that, as you were talking through that, you know, I immediately started 

thinking about my chest. I felt a... I started thinking about my heart. I started to focus on the breathing. 

Everything else I've been thinking about went to the wayside for those moments. And I can see where 

that truly, truly does work. And when you talk about gratitude, you do see more and more of that all 

over the place. So when you're talking about something that you're grateful for, is that something as 

simple as, you know, "I love my kids," and you just think about your kids for a second?

Ramey

39:53

Exactly what it is. That's it. It's different for everybody, and again, nobody even knows—needs to 

know—what it is you're thinking of. But just the simple act of changing your focus for a second or so. 

And people get in this pattern and they know what it is that they want to think about for a minute. And 

they know what they express gratitude for and whatever it is that truthfully makes you feel the way it 

should make you feel when you're thankful or grateful for something.

Donelan

40:20

Mary, can I use you as a before and after? Can you recall sort of how things changed for you once you 

started really putting this into practice?
Schauf

40:29

So I actually put it into practice before I even had it at the police department. I became aware of it. And

it is, it's amazing. And what I think the bigger thing for me is—and thinking about it now in hindsight—

there's that time in the moment where you can tap into it, where you're in a situation... and it could be a 

call for service out in the field, it could be anything. It could be interacting with somebody who's making 

you angry. And just taking that quick pause between to realize that you're starting to hold your breath. 

You're starting... that anger is growing in you. And reversing that before it becomes a problem where 

you lose your temper.

Donelan

41:13

I can speak to you as somebody who, you know, was an officer. There's a before and after in your life. 

You are going to be our before and after. And what it was like for you before you started employing 

these techniques while you were on the job, and what it was like for you after you started employing 

these techniques while you were on the job.

Schauf

41:36

That's a really great question. And it's one of those things that I wish I would have known as a field 

officer. When I was working in the field with people, I would have loved to have these techniques to tap 

into at that time. I came into the HeartMath and the Resilience Advantage program further down the 

road into my career, but it was at a time where frankly I needed it, because the job was starting to show 

its wear and tear on me from a physical, emotional standpoint. And I was able to use these tools both to 

build that piece and it brought my resilience back. And actually it enhanced my career in the sense that 

it... sometimes you get to that point—and cops will understand this, I think everybody does—where you 

get to that point where you're just kind of like, "Why am I still doing this job? I'm not happy. I have all 

these concerns and I'm not happy with the job." And then, by using these tools, it brought back the joy 

for me and it re-motivated me and refocused me... and I think kind of the overall piece for me that I can 

see. That's why it's so important for a cop.

Donelan

42:48

Listen, I want to also say to you that you mentioned that, you know, while I wasn't in the field anymore, 

you know, those desk jobs, so to say, they can be sometimes more stressful. So I'm glad that it came into 

your career and that it brought the joy back. And I think that there are a lot of people who are going to 

identify with that and want a piece of that. So, can I have you both—and, Sandy, I'll start with you, and 

then Mary, I'll ask you—Sandy, can you kind of wrap things up? Can you share a few of what you think 

are the most important lessons learned from your piece of this? And then, what are some of the key 

points that you think other agencies should consider when they're implementing this type of program?
Ramey

43:32

Well, I think, as I mentioned, when they do this, it is a commitment over the long haul. And to make sure 

that it's not just something that comes in and is taught once, and then never revisited again. What we 

found is it seems like everybody is in agreement that starting this at the academy level is a really good 

idea. That's coming from people that, as I mentioned, say that they wish that they would have had this 

when they were learning to be a police officer, and sooner in their career. But that's also coming from 

the recruits about how appreciative they are of having this early in their career.

Donelan

44:07

Mary, what are the lessons that you learned when it came to this program? What are the lessons that 

are really your big takeaways? And then, really important for our listeners, what are key points for other 

agencies who are considering—or we hope will consider, now having listened to this podcast—that they 

will consider when implementing this type of program?

Schauf

44:27

I'm going to, well, I'm going to kind of answer that in reverse order. So the first thing is I think we have 

an obligation as police leaders and managers to find ways to help our people have the best experience 

they can in this profession. It's your obligation, it's what you submit time for. And so I don't think it's 

about... if you're going to find ways, and if it's not this, find something else. So I'll leave that. And then, 

for lessons learned, there are so many things, but I'm going to pick two, and focus in on two. And the 

first one has to do with understanding and realizing—and we've alluded to it at different points in our 

discussion today—but you really need to address before you start any programming like this, how you're 

going to take care of officer privacy concerns, and what I'm going to refer to... So one of the concerns 

my folks had at Madison Police was, "Okay, you're going to teach me this, and then I get a device to 

practice with to see if I'm coherent, but how is that going to be used against me if I... how coherent I am 

if I have a call for service that goes bad, is this something that's going to be public record kind of thing?

An open records kind of thing where I'm not coherent enough?" So you really have to deal with those 

privacy concerns for officers upfront. So look at your jurisdiction, talk with your people, and address 

those things right upfront. Because, otherwise, even cops that want to... the fear of it will lead them just 

kind of wishing they could participate. So that has to be addressed.

The second piece I want to focus in on—and then we talked about this as well already a little bit—but 

the whole concept of buy-in and agency culture and even the policing profession culture, to the extent 

that you change your culture over time and repetition. And so finding ways in the intersections are going 

to be really key and critical. And I'm going to jump a little bit on this right now, is that one of the best 

partners we've had with our project was our Employee Assistance folks. And so we collaborated with 

them early on. Sandy alluded to this earlier as well. They are really progressive folks over there. They're 

innovative, and they share our goal, the department's goal, to improve officer health and wellness.
And so one of the things that our Employee Assistance Program does is that, when we have critical 

incidents, they become involved and take it to that next level, where now we're looking at counseling 

services and things like that. More, you know, services to help officers recover. And both of our 

professional staff that are on our EAP staff, are both trained in the coaching for this program for 

Resilience Advantage. And what they're doing now is, when they come out and work with officers in the 

field after critical incidents, they'll use the coaching techniques. So we're bringing those cops that were 

originally trained, saying here's other professional staff saying, "Let's use these tools now to help you 

recover." And so that step, repetition, it's the buy-in. People start to say, "Hey, it's good for them in EAP 

to help them recover, what else can it help me recover from?" So we're seeing that. We're hearing 

positive responses from those that are getting that coaching. That's really been helpful. And then the 

second piece that we do with—and this is, again, most of the cultural piece—we have what we call peer 

support. And that's for those critical incidents or those cases that get to cops, but they don't reach that 

tipping point where we bring in our professional staff, like the counseling staff and that kind of thing. 

And what we did with, recently, just did with those folks, is that the peer support folks got retrained on 

all the Resilience Advantage training and now they carry a tool.

So there is these biofeedback tools that are used in, within the program. And these officers carry that 

tool with them, and so when they go to deal with other peers, it's peer-to-peer, that peer-to-peer 

mentoring. And they can say, "Hey, you had this horrible call. I can't imagine. There was another baby 

death, you know, I have the monitor." And now the monitor is there for the officer to use to get that 

biofeedback, to help them to try to get them to return to that coherent state. So it's, again, it's culture 

change over time, and showing cops the places where this can help them recover from those stresses 

and those traumas. Finding those places in the training situations, those training scenarios, where now 

we can say, "Okay, hey. You seem to be a little overwhelmed by this training scenario, how can we help 

you through it?" Maybe we can do some of the coaching in the Resilience Advantage program and that 

helps you to succeed.

So then they see the benefits of it. They see them real, and then people get that, it gets the buy-in. So 

the two big things I had for you, obviously, address their privacy concerns. But the culture piece, I can't 

say enough. 

Donelan

49:38

The concern that law enforcement has about privacy and will any of this be used against them? Let's say

they get involved in an officer-involved incident, serious incident, and they've got that tool on them, will 

that data be then used in court? And it will show that my heart rate was X, and therefore I must be 

guilty of Y. Is that even a reality? Is that something that folks just really don't need to worry about?
Schauf

50:09

They don't need to worry about it. We did spend time talking about with our local, you know, looking at 

our local laws, looking at our local stuff, and then working with our city attorney to answer those 

questions for our officers. And I think that was hugely important. It's kind of like if you monitor your 

heart rate during exercise, you don't necessarily save that and release it. It's your biofeedback, it's your 

personal data giving you feedback on your training.

Donelan

50:39

That's probably a huge challenge with law enforcement and breaking down those walls. And helping 

them to understand that, hey, no, this isn't another means to sort of track you and play a game of 

gotcha. I mean, it essentially sounds like it's a Fitbit. But perhaps a Fitbit might even go into more

because it actually tracks where you are at a certain time. So I'm really glad that you addressed that and 

I think one of the big things—and I don't know if you agree with me here or not—is talking about those 

things. Because if you don't talk about these things and allay fears, then that's when things get out of 

control and misinformation starts being shared, when in fact they couldn't be more off-point.

Schauf

51:17 

You're spot on right. That's absolutely right.

Donelan

51:21

Overall, so officer safety and wellness in Madison, with the Madison Police Department, you mentioned, 

Employee Assistance Program, officer safety and wellness, were you incorporating it through there as 

well, through that medium?

Schauf

51:35

The resilience is... it's very much a part of officer safety and wellness. Because coherent officers—

officers who have strong coherence, officers who are resilient—they are healthy, tend to be healthier. 

They have better emotional responses to the daily challenges of the work, they bounce back better, and 

overall, they're just kind of healthier, and we also find that they're safer. I think the example, if an officer 

can use some techniques that keep them from becoming overwhelmed on their way to a call for service, 

then we get more success there. And a quick example of that, an officer was talking about... and it 

wasn't actually in a pursuit driving situation, but the person was actually driving their personal car and 

they had already been trained, and they found themselves in this... it looked like a road rage situation. 

And the person was getting, really escalating, and so they started to use the technique. And they 

actually disengaged themselves from the situation, and the officer came back and said, "Hey, this is how 

I used it. It was my personal car. But I could see that if I was on my way to a call for service and I'm 

engaging in some either emergency driving or pursuit driving, I could use these same techniques." And 
then that started this great discussion with, "Absolutely, you can. And not only that, you probably drive 

better, drive safer, and arrive at the call more prepared to handle the situation with appropriate 

responses." 

Donelan

53:12

That's a phenomenal example. Everyone, we have been speaking with Dr. Sandy Ramey from the 

University of Iowa's College of Nursing and Public Health. And Mary Schauf, a retired captain from the 

Madison Police Department in Wisconsin, about the Madison Police Department's Building Personal 

Resilience project. I cannot tell you how much I have enjoyed this conversation, Ladies, it has been so 

insightful and I hope that people listen and they really look at realistically implementing this in their 

departments. And really, it's a real way to take care of their officers. Well, thank you for joining us. If any 

of our listeners wanted to learn more, how can they contact you directly or learn more about the 

programs?

Schauf

54:10

So for the Madison Police Department, what my recommendation is that you call the City of Madison 

Police Training. And I'm going to give you the main number for the training unit because that person can 

connect you with the best resource for the question that you have. And that number is 608-266-4190. 

Donelan

54:23

Thank you, Captain. 

Ramey

54:24

I would be happy to receive any email communication. And my email is Sandra-Ramey@uiowa.edu. And 

I'll use the letters for that for you, S-A-N-D-R-A dash R-A-M-E-Y at U-I-O-W-A dot E-D-U. And the other 

way for people to learn more about this too is to go to the HeartMath website. And that is, 

heartmath.org/responders. H-E-A-R-T-M-A-T-H dot O-R-G forward slash, R-E-S-P-O-N-D-E-R-S.

Donelan

55:03

Well, thank you. And might I just say that I am very grateful for the both of you and to our listeners for 

listening and joining us on The Beat. 
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56:12

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