Chuck Jordan—A Law Enforcement Leadership Profile

Voiceover

00:00

Welcome to The Beat—a podcast series from the COPS Office at the Department of Justice. Featuring 

interviews with experts from a varied field of disciplines, The Beat provides law enforcement with the 

latest developments and trending topics in community policing.

Jennifer Donelan

00:16

Hello, everyone, and welcome to The Beat. I’m your host, Jennifer Donelan. Today we are speaking with 

a unique figure in American policing, a man who’s had a storied career. In law enforcement circles, he 

could be considered both an everyman figure, as well as a profile in courage. In either case, throughout 

his career he proved to be willing to do what it takes to get the job done, to go against the grain when 

needed, and to call it like he sees it, all while being empathetic, humble, soft-spoken, but strident when 

called for. We’re speaking with Chuck Jordan, who spent 50 years in law enforcement, primarily with the 

Tulsa Police Department in Oklahoma, when he retired as the chief of police in December of 2019.

Chief, how are you?

Chief Chuck Jordan

01:01

I’m good, Jennifer. How are you?

Donelan

01:02

Good, thank you so much for joining us. I have to let you know that when you agreed to speak with us, 

our producer was—and I kid you not—over the moon. He’s been a fan of yours from a distance for quite 

some time, and the COPS Office is just utterly honored to have you join us. Welcome to The Beat. 

Jordan

01:18

Well, thank you. I’m honored to be asked.

Donelan

01:20

Chief, let me begin with 50 years in law enforcement is a long time, and you have seen a lot during that 

span. Can we start by having you share how you got into policing; why you got into policing; why did you 

decide to make this a career?
Jordan

01:34

Well, it’s kind of a dual motivation. My dad was an Indiana State Trooper and ultimately went to the 

Federal Bureau of Narcotics, which was the DEA back in the 50s. And that always made me think about 

maybe wanting to be a police officer. And then I went to Vietnam, came back, and I saw all the discord 

in this country and all the distrust of government, and I really kind of thought it out a little bit and 

thought, you know, the average citizen, the only representative of government they’re going to get to 

see is a police officer. So, probably if I want to make a difference, it’s probably as good a place to start as 

any. And that was part of my motivation, and I loved the job from the day I started until the day I quit. I 

was always... I’d sit many times and go, “I can’t believe they’re paying me to do this.” 

Donelan

02:14

That’s the best kind of job, right? You figure out something you love to do, and somebody pays you to 

do it. I mean, it’s just icing on the cake.

Jordan

02:22

That’s it.

Donelan

02:23

So, you joined in 1969, obviously a point in American history where there was a lot going on. I’m 

wondering if during that time you learned lessons then that you carried throughout your career. I’m 

especially interested in how they may have impacted towards the end of your career.

Jordan

02:39

Well, 1969, if you remember, that was the years of protest. I grew up very much with dealing with 

protests and understanding the necessity of the right to free speech and protests. And we went for a 

long time without any public protests so there was a lot of younger officers that were very threatened 

and they didn’t understand it, you know, they’d never experienced it.

And I kind of had an advantage by going through it, and I knew, most times, how it was going to end. I 

knew how to look for the legitimate protestors and the folks who were trying to cause trouble. I knew 

those people had to be kind of weeded out at these major events, and I think that gave me a little bit of 

a benefit having gone through that in the 60s.
Donelan

03:14

There are often times when people say, “I’ve never seen it this bad in the United States.” You say, “Well, 

look at history.” There have been moments in this country’s history that I’m sure those living at the time 

wondered whether it would ever get any better. When you joined law enforcement, how did you sort of 

overcome perhaps the feelings towards law enforcement at that time?

Jordan

03:39

Well, I think you have to come from a perspective of, you know, you’re going to do the job to protect 

your citizenry and to serve your citizenry whether they like you or not. And it’s a hard pill to swallow 

sometimes. And if they’re wrong about you, then it’s up to you to do things to prove that they are 

wrong and that you’re not the things that they think you are.

Donelan

03:56

Right now in America, to put on that uniform and put on that badge, it’s very difficult for those who are 

out there right now. They’re not being met with open arms by many. What advice do you give them?

Jordan

04:10

Well, things do tend to be cyclical. In the late 60s, early 70s, law enforcement made some changes to 

kind of help our standing with our communities. There were socio-economic changes that went on, that 

helped our communities of color, our communities that didn’t have the same economic advantages of 

others. Things just tend to cycle.

I think the social justice issues, some are valid. There’s a lot of false narrative out there right now. I 

attribute a lot of that to social media. People can say what they want without being confronted and 

pretend it’s the truth. Or, you know, there are entire websites that are dedicated to lies, for both sides 

of the coin.

Donelan

04:46

They can post without being factual. They’re not held to the same standards, certainly, online, so.

Jordan

04:51

No. And you’re talking about, like I said, the false narrative, you know, it started with Ferguson. Well, 

we’ve got African-American witnesses in the Grand Jury in Ferguson that said, “Michael Brown never 

had his hands up, and he was attacking Darren Wilson, and we have his DNA on Darren Wilson’s gun.” 

But no one will come up front with the government and say that, because it’s not, you know, it’s just not 

the cool thing to do. And we’re getting blamed for Trayvon Martin and that wasn’t a police officer. They 

went for weeks talking about the police are going after everybody in a hoodie. 
Well, you know, we wear hoodies, we don’t go after people in hoodies. So, like I say, some of these false 

narratives are just, you know, they’re not good, and you look at the percentage, some of these things 

are atrocious that happened. Some of these police killings. Without a doubt. Once you look at how many 

have actually happened at the hands of police officers, and they’re very minimal.

I understand the frustration of our minority communities, but by the same token, I think there’s a lot of 

false narrative where people are telling their children, “Don’t go out. If you see a police officer, don’t roll 

down the window because he’s going to kill you.” You know, I mean, just crazy stuff.

And again, this is our job to change that. It’s our job to better engage our communities, and to regain 

the trust. Whether the reason it’s not there is right or not, we’re the only ones that can fix it.

Donelan

06:01

That’s true, that’s true. Let’s go back. After a number of officers were retiring, you had been on the job 

for 22 years, you created Tulsa’s Tactical Response Squad. Now, that was to address armed robberies.

Jordan

06:15

Yes. It was.

Donelan

06:16

And the unit arrested 183 suspects in two years. Is that right?

Jordan

06:19

You’ve done some real research on this, haven’t you?

Donelan

06:22

I told you, our producer was over the moon. So, yes. 

Jordan

06:22

Yeah.

Donelan

06:27

A lot of research was done. Okay. So, the unit arrested 183 suspects in two years. In a city like Tulsa with 

a population of 400,000 residents, that seems like a large number. Can you tell us what initially made 

that unit so effective, and what it took to stand it up?
Jordan

06:42

Well, there’s different ways to attack different crime problems.

Donelan

06:44

Sure.

Jordan

06:45

And armed robbery has always been a crime where everybody rushes to the scene. And I immediately 

took the tack... First of all, I used younger officers who are not going to get bored very easily, that would 

stay out here and really dig their heels in and stay busy. And we just had a standing rule: If you’re a mile 

away from the armed robbery when it gets on the radio, you’re too close. They’re past you.

So we looked a lot at major arteries. We looked at setting up on different points in town. And that’s 

basically how we started catching these people. Had a lot of help from an FBI agent that was a local FBI 

agent that was a part of my task force. We did some of the first prosecutions on the Hobbs Act, which is 

the interruption of interstate commerce.

Donelan

07:21

Right.

Jordan

07:22

Which is interesting because we had a guy that was hitting restaurants. So he’d hit a Kentucky Fried 

Chicken, well, we’d have somebody come over from Arkansas where the chicken plant was and testify 

that they brought those chickens to Kentucky Fried Chicken in Oklahoma. So, we got a lot of good 

federal time off of that during that time, but it was out of control for a while and we... That’s why I 

initiated the request for the task force. The average evening shift you’d hear the armed robbery alert go 

out 15, 20 times. And for a city the size of Tulsa, that’s ridiculous.

Donelan

07:49

Wow.

Jordan

07:50

Yeah. And we had a couple killings. What really tore it for me, we had a marine on leave killed in front of 

a bar in South Tulsa, and I said, “Okay, enough is enough. We’ve got to start going after these folks.” 
Donelan

08:00

Your crime stats must’ve been tremendous.

Jordan

08:03

They were.

Donelan

08:05

Because a lot of them, I’m sure, were repeat offenders.

Jordan

08:07

Oh, they were, yes. And we went from having about 155 armed robberies a month down to 27 to 28 

robberies a month.

Donelan

08:15

That’s an impact.

Jordan

08:16

Yeah, it ... well it was two year’s worth, you know? I’d say it was a great experience for a lot of young 

officers, biggest trick in armed robbery. I got called on an armed robbery my first day on the job. And— 

Donelan

08:26

Really?

Jordan

08:27

Yeah. Got incredibly lucky. I mean, working a traffic officer and they put out an armed robbery alarm at 

a convenience store, and I spot the truck. The significance of that is you know you can do it. Some guys 

they think, “Oh, man, he’s gone by now. There’s no way I can get him.” And they kind of give up on it. 

You can’t do that. These guys are very catchable.

Donelan

08:45

Sure. And if we were to give into that belief, then the criminals have won.
Jordan

08:47

That’s exactly right. Well, and the other is that the whole thing with patrol has a tendency, some patrol 

officers, that once it happens and they take the original report, it’s the detectives responsibility. This is 

not mine anymore. And that’s why I love patrol officers that follow up as far as they can, and I 

encouraged—when I was sergeant—I encouraged my officers if you got to spend two more hours on 

that burglary report to follow leads and start now rather than just turn it over to a detective in three 

days, or whatever it takes, do it.

And same way with armed robbery. If my officers would go to the scene, and I always had the task force 

officers go to the scene. We would take all the reports, so the patrol officers loved us. They could stay 

out in the field and look for armed robbers while our guys were taking reports. We had some that were 

also looking for the robbers, but we took all the reports. But we also got all the intelligence and got all 

the information that we needed to go through too by doing that.

Donelan

09:33

You have automatic buy-in. Everybody has invested.

Jordan

09:36

You know, I put out a newsletter every week, honoring some patrol officer who gets an armed robber—

call it Cops and Robbers—go over our major robberies for the week and who did good. It went over well 

with the troops, they loved it.

Donelan

09:46

Never underestimate the impact of literally telling someone, “Good job.” 

Jordan

09:50

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Donelan

09:52

It means a lot. So, you have the distinction of retiring from the Tulsa Police Department twice, right?

Jordan

10:00

Yes.
Donelan

10:01

The first time was after 32 years when you left to become the regional commander of the United 

Nations Civilian Police Mission in war-torn Kosovo and led an international force of more than 1,200 

officers. Yeah, storied career is an understatement. You’ve credited your experience with developing an 

interest in police administration to this experience. So, what did it teach you, both about leadership in 

American policing, compared to law enforcement in other countries?

Jordan

10:29

Well, the biggest thing it taught me is negotiating with other entities. I’ll put it this way, my worst day in 

Tulsa Police Department is better than my best day in Kosovo. We were constantly dealing with the

Serbian enclaves were still there, they were constantly under attack by Albanian populations, we had to 

protect them. So I would be getting calls from everything from the Prime Minister of Serbia to Kofi 

Annan from the UN, just a constant battle. 

And we were in the middle of making everything civilian. It had been military, and military was trying 

to... what they call unfixing, like take away checkpoints and stuff like that. And my officers are armed, 

9mm pistols, period. And we got some of those terrorists over there with AK-47s and more. So I was 

constantly fighting that battle. It’s not time to take down our checkpoints yet. Let’s wait until we get a 

little further along in this process.

And NATO was pretty understanding. I was in the German sector and you could talk to them. It was 

pretty good. But I had to learn how to do that, you know, that was something I’d never had to do, is 

have a corresponding general on the other side of the table and constantly having conversations and 

give or take and things like that. So it was good experience for me.

Donelan

11:30

Yes, I would say good experience. It sounds amazing. I’m like, oh my gosh, who am I talking to? Just a 

reminder to our listeners, we are speaking with Chuck Jordan, retired Chief of the Tulsa Police 

Department, and he has had an amazing, amazing career.

So when you returned from Kosovo, you joined the Tulsa County Sheriff’s Office and earned the rank of 

captain. Later, you were appointed interim chief back at the Tulsa Police Department, and several 

months after that, the interim designation went away, and you took full charge of the department. 

After returning to where you got started, this time as the head of an organization having experienced all 

of that in Kosovo and in a Sheriff’s Office, what was different? Had your perspective changed or 

expanded?
Jordan

12:13

It had a lot. But there’s one thing, I’ll always say this, “I never made any decisions as a chief any 

differently than I did as a sergeant.” And I think keeping that sergeant’s perspective served me very, 

very well. Sergeant’s the most important position on any police department, that’s where the rubber 

meets the road, that’s where you have the maximum influence on your troops. If you’ve got your 

sergeants on your side and they’re doing the right thing, you’re going to have a great police department.

Some people question: Can you come back as a sergeant to be chief? And it worked okay for 10 years. 

Donelan

12:40

It sure did. Is it common for many officers to spend their entire career in one agency? Are there benefits 

or drawbacks to moving in the middle of a career, do you think?

Jordan

12:48

A lot of people will leave the agencies because it doesn’t look like their career path’s going to go to 

chief, and somebody else is going to get it, or going to be there for a long time. There were people that 

left when I came because they knew I would be there for several years, and one went to be chief in a 

town in Arizona and another one went to Alaska to be a parole officer, actually. But Tulsa—most 

departments—people try to stay in the same department most of their career. You know, I never even 

took a lieutenant’s test. I never had any desire for command. 

Donelan

12:48

Really?

Jordan

13:13

I loved the streets. I loved the squad-level supervision. I liked the hands-on, you know, you’re going to 

catch bad guys with your troops. And Kosovo was what taught me. I went over there, I was just going to 

be a basic patrol officer, probably, because we were teaching the Kosovo police so we had to bring up a 

6,000 officer Kosovo police service, too.

So a lot of it was teaching, but I was there like a month, and the commissioner was Danish and called me 

down there and said, “Well, I’m going to make you regional commander if that’s okay with you?” I’m 

like... [Laughs] “No more pay, by the way, you get paid the same.” But it was a great experience for me. I 

found out, first of all, that all the things I was griped about as a sergeant I could change as a regional 

commander.
Donelan

13:49

There’s that benefit. 

Jordan

13:53

But, yeah, I got to learn that command is important, and it, you have a lot of influence, really positive 

influence, you know, being in command, too.

I came back, went to work at the county, started as a deputy, made corporal, made sergeant, made 

captain, and then I was over the reserves and the SWAT team as a captain. So, basically, I would shoot 

submachine guns and drink coffee all day. Whatever made me thought I should take this chief job, I 

don’t know, but I did.

Donelan

14:19

Lost a bet? 

Jordan

14:21

You know, well, no, this was a funny deal, the guy, he was going to run for mayor, Dewey Bartlett, great 

man, and he had been a counselor. He used to ride with me every Saturday night when I was a sergeant. 

And he called me to eat lunch with him one day, and he says, “Well, I’m going to run for mayor again. If I 

make it, I’d really like for you to be part of my administration.” And I said, “Well ...” I said, “What, what 

do you got in mind?” And he said, “Well, police department.” I said, “Well, you know, I had retired, I 

can’t come back, only the chief can come back.” And he said, “That’s what I’m talking about.” Oh, okay.

Donelan

14:45

Wow. What went through your heart and mind then?

Jordan

14:47

Well, I’d been married a lot of years by then so I did the smart thing, I said, “I’m going to talk it over with 

my wife first.”

Donelan

14:53

Yes. Very smart.
Jordan

14:55

Because it’s going to impact her. And I had talked it over with my son, because he’s on the police 

department, it’s obviously going to impact him. And they were both okay with it. And I said, “Okay.” And 

it was supposed to happen in September of 2010, the then chief was going to retire. Well, he ended up 

leaving in January.

So, January 2010 I was interim chief, and then November they made me actual chief. Kind of interesting 

thing, because the previous mayor had not made chief job civil service. And Mayor Bartlett said, “Well, 

I’d really like to pay you more money. I’m going to try to give you a raise somehow.” And I said, “You 

can’t give me a raise.” We’d laid off police officers, we’d laid off other employees, we’d just got our 

police officers back. I said, the only way you could give me a raise it to make it civil service again.

He said, “Okay.” So I was not at will. You know?

Donelan

15:38

You literally are taking the words out of my mouth. You were a civil-service chief, so do you think that 

made a difference in how you were able to lead? And what’s the difference between appointed chiefs, 

at-will chiefs, versus civil-service chiefs, and do you think the fact that you were a civil-service chief 

impacted the way that you were able to lead?

Jordan

15:54

Oh, absolutely. And I was lucky; both the mayors I worked for never asked me to do anything untoward 

or out of line in any way, shape, or form. But I know other chiefs that were at will that have had to kind 

of succumb to the will if they wanted to stay. So, it gives you a lot more independence. I don’t think a 

police chief should ever be at will. It’s too much pressure, too much option for corruption, and just bad 

administration. 

Donelan

16:16

I can see that, absolutely.

Jordan

16:18

I can still be fired for cause, you know, but it’s not going to change just because the mayor changes.

Donelan

16:23

So, we’re going to take a little walk back in history. A painful moment in history. For those listeners who 

may or may not be aware, Tulsa has a well-chronicled history. On May 31st and June 1st, 1921, mobs of 

White residents, many of them deputized and given weapons by city officials, attacked Black residents 
and businesses of the Greenwood District in Tulsa. It has been called the single worst incident of racial 

violence in American history. The attack, which was carried out on the ground and from private aircraft, 

destroyed more than 35 square blocks of Greenwood at a time when it was the wealthiest Black 

community in the United States, known as Black Wall Street.

That incident happened 100 years ago, but it is still in the psyche of many citizens of Tulsa. So, on April 

6th, 2012, Good Friday, when five Black citizens were randomly shot and three of them died, it sent 

shock waves through that community. Chief, can you tell us what happened on that day?

Jordan

17:25

Yeah, it happened ... First one started about 1:00 in the morning, and I got a phone call, and of course, 

the first one, it was just a shooting. And it was in a relatively high-crime area, neighborhood. You know, 

it could have been a dope deal; it could have been gangs; it could have been anything.

The homicide investigators were in route, then, suddenly, we had two more victims show up in that 

same area. And all three were African American. And then we had a man call in and he was in that 

neighborhood and he was confronted by two White guys in a car and he got away. He turned and ran 

and they cranked off one round, I believe, but he got away.

So, then we knew we were going to have problems. It was scary. I’ve never seen the cohesiveness of our 

department, or of our community. Our African-American community was not exhibiting anger, they 

were exhibiting absolute fear, as they should have been. And our officers came through like champions.

They made it very clear that this was not going to be stood for, we’re going to get them. And my biggest 

fear was that it was just somebody coming through town, I-40, on the way to Tucumcari or somewhere.

Donelan

18:23

Mm-hmm. [affirmative] 

Jordan

18:24

But we were prepared in some ways. Every major department needs to have a standing unit to deploy 

during these kinds of things. I’ve always had one, and I always will. Ours was the fugitive warrants task 

force. But that isn’t all they did. We had serial rapists, we had serial robbers, we had a series of 

shootings. They would be directly involved, very good at surveillance, and they’re very good at 

apprehension. So that was our core unit, that we deployed and added to it, putting a lot of people on 

the streets, a lot of people from in that unit, and ultimately the public cooperated with us and called in, 

and we ended up getting the guys Sunday.
Donelan

18:57

So this was on a Friday, you got them on Easter Sunday. So a total of five people were shot, three killed. 

Were the five people all shot on that one day, or did it continue into the weekend?

Jordan

19:06

No, it was that one night.

Donelan

19:08

Really?

Jordan

19:08

Yeah.

Donelan

19:09

There’s healing that has to happen after something like that.

Jordan

19:12

Oh, there is. Well, it’s, you know, it actually improved the relationship with the police department. I 

think everybody in our community—African-American, White, everybody—saw what the police 

department’s willing to do when something like that happens, and the resources we’re going to put 

forward, and we’re going to succeed. And it had a very positive impact on our relationship with the 

community.

Donelan

19:30

Want to talk about something you did during that time. So, that incident obviously opens old wounds, 

and many people though believe that had it not been for your leadership, members of the community, 

both Black and White, would have drawn parallels to 1921.

At the time of the shooting you held a press conference that was covered live on national television. 

Your words, your unifying approach, calmed fears and generated an unprecedented level of 

cooperation. That’s what people are saying. Between police and the community. The Black community 

in particular, and I know you just mentioned that. During that press conference, in an indirect and 

confident inspiring manner, you let the community know that the increased police presence in Black 

neighborhoods was an indication that the Tulsa PD was there to support and protect the people of the 

community.
You also made somewhat of a commitment, which I know can be a little daunting because, you know, 

you made a commitment that you were going to apprehend the shooters quickly, which you ended up 

doing, but you didn’t know that at the time.

Jordan

19:30

Well— 

Donelan

20:26

But I... That does show your faith in your people, for you, personally, and for Tulsa PD. Did the situation 

in 1921... Did you feel that as you were addressing that moment in 2012?

Jordan

20:39

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I had African-American friends in the community that called and expressed, 

again, not anger, they were just... they were fearful, and they talked about that. They said, “You know, 

my grandparents went through 1921.” And I probably did step out on a limb by saying, “We’re coming 

for you.”

Donelan

20:53

Well, that’s true. We’re coming for you.

Jordan

20:57

And we’re going to get you. And, you know, I had that much faith in the group of people that were in 

that fugitive warrants, and the officers that were assigned to look. No doubt in my mind that they were 

going to get them. I didn’t know we’d get them by Easter, but I knew we would get them. Undoubtedly.

Donelan

21:10

Well, that faith from their leader, I’m sure, was inspiring to your officers. One year after the Good Friday 

shootings, at a reconciliation ceremony, you apologized for the police department’s actions in the 1921 

Tulsa Race Massacre. You said, and I quote, “As your chief today, I can apologize for our police 

department. I am sorry and distressed that the Tulsa Police Department did not protect its citizens 

during those tragic days in 1921.” 

Fast forward to 2016, you received a standing ovation from a diverse crown at a gathering where you 

stated, “Black Lives Matter.” Just two months later, Tulsa became the scene of a high-profile, policeinvolved shooting, when a Tulsa PD officer killed an unarmed Black man. And that incident occurred 

during a span of several high-profile police shootings in Ferguson, Baton Rouge, Charlotte, and other 

cities. 
Again, you held a press conference. And it was, again, covered nationally. And you, again, eased 

frustrations by immediately releasing the video after viewing it with the family of the deceased and then 

with the leaders of Tulsa’s Black community. But most important to some, you stated how you felt 

about what you saw. And that was a personal thing. 

Unlike the other cities that experienced violence after one of those incidents, there was no violence in 

Tulsa. Can you take me back to that? 

Jordan

22:31

Yeah, it was the camera thing, and I caught a little bit of heat from some members of my staff about 

releasing it. My thoughts are, “Why do we have the cameras if we’re never going to release it?” People 

are just going to trust us less. It’s not going to be getting prettier two months down the line. It’s going to 

be a very ugly video no matter when you show it, and I think it’s imperative that we let our citizens know 

that we understand that we’re under scrutiny, and we have those cameras for a reason, and we’ll show 

what happened on those cameras. 

I say, it was a very disturbing scene, not... that’s not to say anything about what happened, or what the 

officer did or didn’t do. Any time somebody gets shot, it’s disturbing. And I say, I thought it was very 

important. I’d been watching cities not show their videos for months

If you remember, same time, Kerr Putney in Charlotte was having an officer-involved shooting at the 

same exact time, and— 

Donelan

23:18

Was that at the exact same time?

Jordan

23:20

Yep. He wanted to release his video; his mayor would not let him. And, you know, you’re talking about 

the shooter was an African-American police officer who was a rock star, an athlete, academic rock star in 

college. The gun is laying there beside the guy that’s got an ankle holster with the gun on, but they 

wouldn’t release the video. 

Donelan

23:38

It would have gone so far for people to render their own decisions, but it’s a difficult position, I am 

assuming, to be the one to have to make those decisions. And particularly when you have to make those 

uncomfortable decisions, right? I mean, you’ve said, even your own staff was like, “Uh, I don’t think we 

should release this,” and yet you did, and that takes something special to do. Because, at the end of the 

day, the transparency in law enforcement is going to be what saves law enforcement.
Jordan

24:06

I agree, completely. And it wasn’t all my staff. There were a few that just questioned whether we should 

do it now or not, and of course this is kind of new ground for us. We hadn’t had an officer-involved 

shooting with video before, and so we didn’t have a set policy at that point. Like I say, it was new 

ground, and whenever you do something for the first time there’s always going to be nay-sayers and 

people that are for it. But we worked it out, and once we had done it, everybody agreed that that’s what 

we should have done. 

Donelan

24:30

That’s amazing. When you were going through the academy in 1969, did you ever imagine that you 

would become Tulsa’s healer-in-chief? What is it that led you to handle all of these issues as you did? 

And what advice would you give to others in law enforcement on policing in the aftermath of issues that 

are a potential racial powder keg?

Jordan

24:47

You know, I’m the worst about being somewhat defensive. I defend my profession; I defend my 

department; I defend myself, my decisions. But I’ve learned that doesn’t help anything when you do 

that. You’re not listening if you’re defending your position and I think I would tell anybody that’s in a 

chief’s position, or really any command position, you’ve got to prepare to listen to what the other side 

has to say. You’ve got to be prepared to be very, very transparent, even when it hurts. 

Again, as I said earlier in our show, it’s going to be up to us to regain trust. The community’s not going to 

do it on their own. And so that means we’re going to have to make... Some changes we can’t make, we 

shouldn’t make, you know, there’s people who don’t want us to arrest anybody. Well, that doesn’t work 

with our human nature, unfortunately. 

Are there things that possibly in sentencing, and maybe in the courts that could be changed? Yeah, it 

probably could. Should we be more involved with community engagement? Yes, absolutely. When you 

know somebody, and you know their friends, and you know who their favorite football team is, and you 

know their first name, it’s pretty hard to start hating. You know? It just changes the perspective of 

everything. 

I think we’ve got to get those personal relationships that make a difference. Beat cops make a 

difference. We had gone to several different patrol styles while I was gone, and I put us back under a 

beat system because I think it’s important that people know who the officer he or she is that’s in their 

neighborhood, and they talk to them. 

You just can’t have these faceless people driving around in cars and expect to have any kind of a 

relationship, which is what you’re trying to build with your community. So, I say it’s a lot of things. I’ve 

never been a big believer in having community-policing units, because I think that job has got to be for 
every cop on the street. If you’ve got a special unit that’s assigned to do it, guess what the cops on the 

street think? “Oh, they’re going to handle it.” You can have somebody organizing it; you can have 

somebody putting it all together, but you got to include the beat cops and the guys on the street

because that’s just too important.

Donelan

26:31

Chief Chuck Jordan, it has been a pleasure and an honor speaking with you. Thank you for sharing your 

experiences. Thank you for walking us back through those extraordinary moments in your life and thank 

you for all that you have done for policing. Chief, on behalf of our listeners, we want to thank you for 50 

years of selfless service. 

Jordan

26:51

I want to thank my community for allowing me, because it’s been the most satisfying job I could ever 

have.

Donelan

26:55

Thank you. And thank you, everyone, for joining us, on The Beat. 

Voiceover: The Beat Exit

26:59

The Beat is brought to you by the United States Department of Justice’s COPS Office. The COPS Office 

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Voiceover: Disclaimer

27:57

The opinions contained herein are those of the authors, and do not necessarily represent the official 

position or policies of the U.S. Department of Justice. References to specific agencies, companies, 

products, or services should not be considered an endorsement by the authors, or the U.S. Department 

of Justice. Rather, the references are illustrations to supplement discussion of the issues.