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1 Environmental Protection Agency 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 Public Hearing on the Proposed Federal Plan 

7 and Model Rules for the Clean Power Plan 

8 For Existing Power Plants 

9 

10 Day 2 

11 

12 9:02 a.m. to 5:08 p.m. 

13 Friday, November 20, 2015 

14 

15 

16 Sam Nunn Atlanta Federal Center 

17 Main Tower Bridge Conference Center 

18 61 Forsyth Street, SW 

19 Atlanta, GA 30303 

20 

21 

22 
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1 EPA Panel: 

2 Morning Session: 

3 FRED THOMPSON 

4 JEANANNE GETTLE, Deputy Director of Air 

5 Pesticides and Toxics Management Division, EPA 

6 COLIN BOSWELL, Office of Air Quality Planning 

7 and Standards, EPA 

8 

9 Afternoon Session: 

10 TIM MITCHELL 

11 SUZANNE RUBINI, Chief, Office of Air, Pesticides, 

12 and Toxics Legal Support, EPA Region 4 

13 COLIN BOSWELL, Office of Air Quality Planning 

14 and Standards, EPA 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 
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1 C O N T E N T S 

2 PAGE 

3 Morning Session 

4 DRU PRESTON, Biomass for Georgia Coalition 13 

5 ABBY FOX, Southeast Energy Efficiency 

6 Alliance 16 

7 CHRIS PERKINS, U.S. Green Building Council 22 

8 CHRIS CUOMO, University of Georgia 26 

9 KEITH DANIEL, Georgia Transmission Corporation 31 

10 DOUG FULLE, Oglethorpe Power Corporation 37 

11 JUNE DEEN, American Lung Association 42 

12 THOMAS BEUSSE, Georgia Chemistry Council 45 

13 BETSY ABRAMS, former meteorologist 48 

14 PAT DAUGHERTY 51 

15 RICKI SOARING DOVE 54 

16 REMY DEVOE, American Nuclear Society 57 

17 MOLLY CAGLE, Manufacture Alabama 61 

18 NEIL HERMAN, University of Tennessee 65 

19 SONUM NERURKAR 70 

20 YEOU-RONG JIH 72 

21 

22 
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1 C O N T E N T S (continued) 

2 PAGE 

3 Afternoon Session 

4 COMMISSIONER TIM ECHOLS 87 

5 BRIONTE McCORKLE 93 

6 TING MA 99 

7 DORIS MARLIN 103 

8 JIM REEFE 109 

9 IAN KARRA, Sierra Club, Beyond Coal Campaign 118 

10 KAYLON PATERSON, Amicus Terrae 122 

11 JESSICA WANG 125 

12 GARRY HARRIS, Center for Sustainable 

13 Communities 127 

14 CHRIS HOLLOWAY 133 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S 

2 MR. THOMPSON: Okay, folks. We're going 

3 to get started. 

4 Good morning. My name is Fred Thompson 

5 and I am the chair of today's public hearing. 

6 Thank you for coming today. Joining me on the 

7 panel are, to my left, Jeananne Gettle of EPA's 

8 Region 4, and Colin Boswell, who is with EPA's 

9 Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards. 

10 Fossil fuel-fired power plants are the 

11 largest source of U.S. carbon dioxide emissions, 

12 or carbon pollution, accounting for 31 percent of 

13 U.S. total greenhouse gas emissions. Reducing 

14 carbon pollution from power plants is an 

15 essential step in lessening the impacts of 

16 climate change and providing a more certain 

17 future for our environment, our health, and 

18 future generations. 

19 We are here today to listen to your 

20 comments on the EPA's proposed federal plan and 

21 model rule to implement the Clean Power Plan for 

22 Existing Power Plants. 
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1 On October 23, 2015, the Environmental 

2 Protection Agency published, in the Federal 

3 Register, its proposed federal plan to implement 

4 emission guidelines for power plants under 

5 Section 111(d) of the Clean Air Act. The EPA's 

6 111(d) rule, known as the Clean Power Plan, takes 

7 effect on December 22, 2015, and applies to 

8 affected power plants that began construction on 

9 or before January 8, 2014. 

10 The federal plan and model trading rules 

11 demonstrate a readily available path forward for 

12 Clean Power Plan implementation, and presents 

13 flexible, affordable implementation options for 

14 states. The model rules provide a cost-effective 

15 pathway to adopt a trading system supported by 

16 the EPA and make it easy for states and power 

17 plants to use emissions trading. It does the 

18 heavy lifting for states who may choose to use a 

19 model rule as their state plan. The EPA would 

20 implement the federal plan in any state that does 

21 not submit an approvable plan. 

22 This proposal includes four discrete 
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1 proposed actions: a rate-based federal plan for 

2 each state with affected EGUs; a mass-based 

3 federal plan for each state with affected EGUs; a 

4 rate-based model trading rule for potential use 

5 by any state; and a mass-based model trading rule 

6 for potential use by any state. 

7 The proposed federal plans will achieve 

8 the same levels of emissions performance as 

9 required of state plans under the Clean Power 

10 Plan. Federal plans will be finalized only for 

11 those states with affected EGUs that the EPA 

12 determines have failed to submit an approvable 

13 111(d) state plan by the relevant deadlines set 

14 in the emission guidelines. 

15 In those states where a federal plan may 

16 be required, a final federal plan will implement 

17 the same emission guidelines for affected power 

18 plants outlined in the Clean Power Plan. It 

19 would not require additional control requirements 

20 or impose additional costs. Even where a federal 

21 plan is put in place for a particular state, that 

22 state will still be able to submit a plan which, 
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1 if approved, will allow the state and its sources 

2 to exit the federal plan. 

3 States may take delegation of 

4 administrative aspects of the federal plan in 

5 order to become the primary implementers, or 

6 submit partial state plans in order to take over 

7 the implementation of a portion of a federal 

8 plan. States operating under a federal plan may 

9 adopt complementary measures outside of that plan 

10 to facilitate compliance and lower costs to the 

11 benefit of power generators and consumers. 

12 The proposal also includes a model rule 

13 for those states that are developing their own 

14 state plans. The EPA intends to finalize both 

15 the rate-based and mass-based model trading rules 

16 in the summer of 2016. A state program that 

17 adheres to the model trading rule provisions 

18 specified in this rulemaking, when final, would 

19 be presumptively approvable. 

20 There are stand-alone portions of the 

21 model trading rules, such as the evaluation, 

22 measurement, and verification procedures for 
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1 emission rate credits, also known as ERCs, that 

2 would be approvable even if a state adopted an 

3 approach that differs in other respects from the 

4 model rule. 

5 In addition, the proposal contains a 

6 finding that it is necessary or appropriate to 

7 implement a Section 111(d) federal plan for the 

8 affected EGUs located in Indian country. CO2 

9 emission performance rates for these facilities 

10 were finalized in the Clean Power Plan. It also 

11 contains information on how the EPA will reach 

12 out to communities throughout the comment period 

13 and an overview of the actions that EPA is taking 

14 to ensure that vulnerable communities are not 

15 being disproportionately impacted by the 

16 rulemaking. 

17 If you would like more details on the 

18 proposed rule, there are fact sheets available at 

19 the registration desk. 

20 Before we get started, I'd like to go 

21 through a few housekeeping items and ground rules 

22 that will help to make today's hearing hopefully 
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1 run smoothly. First, please be sure you have 

2 checked in at the registration desk, even if you 

3 are not planning to speak today. And if you 

4 signed up to speak online or by phone but haven't 

5 told us that you are here, please step out to the 

6 registration desk and let the EPA staff know that 

7 you have arrived. 

8 I will call speakers up in pairs. When 

9 your name is called, please come to the speakers' 

10 table at the front of the room, which is here to 

11 my right. When I call on you to speak, please 

12 state your name and spell it for the court 

13 reporter. Your comments will be transcribed and 

14 included in the record of comments on the 

15 proposed rule. 

16 Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 

17 comments. We have a timer light to help you know 

18 how much time you have left to speak, and it's 

19 here to the left. When the light turns from 

20 green to yellow, that means you have 1 minute 

21 remaining. When it turns red, that's a signal 

22 that your 5 minutes have expired, and it is time 
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1 to stop. Yellow, 1 minute; red, stop. When you 

2 are finished speaking, please remain at the table 

3 until the person next to you has completed his or 

4 her testimony. 

5 We are here to listen to you today. 

6 However, a panel member may ask questions to 

7 clarify your comments. 

8 I will then call up the next set of 

9 speakers, and so on. If you have brought a copy 

10 of your written testimony, please give that to 

11 the staff at the registration desk before you 

12 leave today. We will put written comments 

13 submitted today in the official docket for the 

14 proposed rule. 

15 We also have comment cards available at 

16 the registration desk, if you would like to 

17 submit additional written comments today. If you 

18 want to comment in writing later, stop by the 

19 materials table near the registration desk and 

20 pick up a copy of the instructions for submitting 

21 written comments. Comments must be received by 

22 January 21, 2016. And I'll repeat that. 
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1 Comments must be received by January 21, 2016. 

2 Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 

3 much consideration to comments we receive in 

4 writing as we do to comments we receive at public 

5 hearings like this one. So if you have more 

6 comments that you would like to provided the EPA, 

7 please submit them by the comment period 

8 deadline. Your comments will, I assure you, be 

9 reviewed. 

10 If you have any questions during the day, 

11 please see the staff at the registration desk, 

12 and someone will gladly assist you. 

13 Thank you again for taking the time today 

14 to share your comments on EPA's proposal, and 

15 with that, let's get started. 

16 A correction. If you have a written 

17 testimony we'd like to ask that you give your 

18 written testimony to the court reporter who is 

19 sitting to my left. Thank you. 

20 So with that, let's get started. At this 

21 time I would like to invite Dru Preston and Abby 

22 Foster. Please come forth with your testimony. 
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1 Good morning to the both of you, and 

2 thanks for coming. I'd like to start with you, 

3 Mr. Preston. Please state your name and spell it 

4 for the court reporter and begin with your 

5 testimony. 

6 MR. PRESTON: All right. My name is Dru 

7 Preston. That's D-r-u P-r-e-s-t-o-n, and I am 

8 with the Georgia Forestry Commission and I am 

9 representing the Biomass for Georgia Coalition. 

10 We are pleased to be able to present biomass as a 

11 viable method to help Georgia meet the Clean 

12 Power Plan. 

13 I'll start by giving a little overview of 

14 forestry here in Georgia. We have 24.4 million 

15 acres of timberland. Georgia is two-thirds 

16 forested and this has remained stable since the 

17 1950s. We have one of the largest privately 

18 owned timberland acreages in the nation, and we 

19 have consistently had 40 percent or more growth 

20 over removals in recent years. Georgia has a 

21 $28.9 billion forestry industry that employs over 

22 135,000 people. It's one of the largest 
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1 industries in this state, and more than half of 

2 Georgia's counties are dependent, either 

3 moderately to critically, on forestry, so it's 

4 very important for rural economies. It is 

5 estimated that Georgia's forests offset about 8 

6 percent of our state's emissions. 

7 Georgia currently has a biomass 

8 definition that is very inclusive and very broad, 

9 in terms of eligible biomass material. It 

10 includes trees, wood, wood waste and residues, 

11 wood chips, bark chips and forest standing, and 

12 we believe that this is a good and very inclusive 

13 definition for biomass. We believe that all the 

14 materials should be included, which is mill 

15 residues as well as residues from the pulp and 

16 paper process, also logging debris and urban wood 

17 waste. It is estimated that Georgia produces 

18 about 9 million dry tons of logging debris and 

19 urban wood waste every single year, and this is a 

20 very under-utilized source. Landowners are trying 

21 to remove this material. Much urban wood waste 

22 ends up in landfills, so this is a good 
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1 opportunity. This is a new market for this type 

2 of material. 

3 We also, though, believe that standing 

4 trees, particularly small-diameter trees, should 

5 be included as well. This would help in certain 

6 parts of the state where the market for small7 diameter trees is not as robust and strong as 

8 other parts of the state. This would certainly 

9 help create a new market and incentive for 

10 landowners to keep their lands forested. 

11 We also believe that standing trees 

12 should be included because of the ability to use 

13 them through forest thinnings. This would reduce 

14 wildfire risk, in terms of removing overcrowded 

15 trees and heavily stocked stands. It would also 

16 remove damaged and diseased trees that have been 

17 damaged by insects, or you have ice storm damage 

18 and those sorts of events. 

19 So we support a wide inclusion of 

20 eligible biomass, again, to create opportunities 

21 for new markets. This would broaden 

22 participation for landowners and industry alike. 
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1 It would keep urban wood waste out of landfills 

2 and it allows for thinning of small-diameter 

3 trees, particularly trees that are diseased and 

4 storm-damaged. It would be a win-win situation 

5 for Georgia, for our citizens, for the 

6 environment. It would keep working forest in 

7 forest, because here in Georgia, healthy and 

8 productive forests are driven by markets. If 

9 there's markets for the timber, people will put 

10 their land in timber. When they harvest the 

11 timber they will replant it. It gives them 

12 incentive to do that. 

13 So that's why we urge that there is as 

14 broad an inclusion for eligible biomass as 

15 possible. 

16 So thank you. 

17 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Preston. 

18 Ms. Fox, please begin. 

19 MS. FOX: Good morning. My name is Abby 

20 Fox and I'm a policy manager with the Southeast 

21 Energy Efficiency Alliance, or SEEA. SEEA is a 

22 nonprofit, non-partisan organization 
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1 headquartered here in Atlanta, that serves an 11-

2 state territory from Virginia down to Florida, 

3 over to Louisiana and Arkansas. SEEA leverages 

4 our extensive network consisting of utilities, 

5 program implementers, trade allies, and 

6 manufacturers to convene partners, strengthening 

7 and enabling policies and strategic programs, and 

8 provide technical advisory services. 

9 SEEA does not take a position on EPA's 

10 authority to issue the Clean Power Plan. 

11 Instead, SEEA is here to provide perspective on 

12 how EPA can facilitate the use of energy 

13 efficiency has a least cost-compliant pathway 

14 within the proposed federal plan, while keeping 

15 implementation manageable for EPA. 

16 Energy efficiency is a proven win-win for 

17 the Southeast. In addition to offsetting CO2 and 

18 other emissions, energy efficiency enhances the 

19 reliability of the electric grid, reduces power 

20 sector risks, improves public health, and 

21 supports job creation and economic growth. 

22 Of critical importance for the 
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1 implementation of the Clean Power Plan, energy 

2 efficiency remains the region's least cost 

3 resource. A recent SEEA analysis documented that 

4 high-performing utilities in the Southeast are 

5 generating energy savings at a level live cost of 

6 between 1 and 3 cents per kilowatt hour, lower 

7 than the spectrum of supply side resources 

8 currently available. Energy efficiency's cost 

9 profile makes it an important tool for moderating 

10 compliance costs, while supporting other critical 

11 economic benefits in the Southeast. 

12 Following the release of the final rule 

13 and the removal of Building Block 4, energy 

14 efficiency, EPA has repeatedly and effectively 

15 reinforced the availability of energy efficiency 

16 as a compliance option. However, in its proposed 

17 federal plan, EPA has determined not to make 

18 available demand-side energy efficiency a non19 affected combined heat and power. Under a rate20 based approach, energy efficiency is not eligible 

21 to generate ERCs. Under a math-based approach, 

22 energy efficiency is not included within EPA's 
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1 proposed allowance allocation method outside of 

2 the Clean Energy Incentive Program, or 

3 recommended as a strategy available to states 

4 that determine their own allocation processes 

5 under a federal plan. 

6 While the majority of states within 

7 SEEA's footprint have expressed their intent to 

8 move forward with the compliance plan, some may 

9 ultimately take a federal plan. If energy 

10 efficiency is taken off the table for federal 

11 plan implementation, costs may rise significantly 

12 and may negatively impact the welfare of low13 income households and vulnerable communities 

14 within our region. 

15 Accordingly, we strongly encourage EPA to 

16 explore a means to reinforce the availability of 

17 energy efficiency as a compliance option, by 

18 considering options for including it in the 

19 federal plan. While EPA must take into account 

20 important logistical considerations, SEEA 

21 believes that energy efficiency could be made 

22 available to states as an option under a federal 
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1 plan while maintaining the desire rigor, as well 

2 as ease of implementation. 

3 One of the specific concerns articulated 

4 by EPA in its proposed federal plan preamble is 

5 the management of evaluation measurement and 

6 verification of saving from energy efficiency 

7 measures, or EM&V. SEEA is aware of numerous 

8 resources that may streamline implementation and 

9 lighten the load for EPA. For instance, there 

10 are multiple efforts underway across the nation 

11 to develop energy efficiency registries, which 

12 could serve as clearinghouses and perform the 

13 necessary EM&V for ERC generation under a rate14 based approach, or document EM&V for savings 

15 under various allocation methods, and set-asides 

16 that incorporate energy efficiency under a math17 based approach. 

18 Registries provide a consistent framework 

19 for energy efficiency to be included in 

20 compliance plans, and facilitate streamlined 

21 review and vetting of savings from energy 

22 efficiency measures that may lessen the 
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1 obligation for EPA. Notably, the Southeastern 

2 states of Georgia and Tennessee are currently 

3 participating in a stakeholder process to design 

4 and build out a national energy efficiency 

5 registry for potential application under the 

6 Clean Power Plan. 

7 SEEA looks forward to continuing to 

8 collaborate with EPA and regional stakeholders to 

9 chart a path forward for energy efficiency under 

10 a federal plan and to create a least cost maximum 

11 benefit compliance framework. Please do not 

12 hesitate to reach out to us if we can provide any 

13 additional information or perspective to future 

14 support this work. 

15 Thank you. 

16 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Are there any 

17 questions from the panel? 

18 [No audible response.] 

19 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you both for your 

20 testimony. 

21 Okay. At this time I would like to 

22 invite Chris Perkins and Dr. Chris Cuomo to 
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1 please come forward for testimony. 

2 So Chris and Dr. Chris. Let's see which 

3 one we'll start with first. Perkins. Could you 

4 please state and spell your name for the court 

5 reporter and begin your testimony. 

6 MR. CHRIS PERKINS: Yes. My name is 

7 Chris Perkins, and that's C-h-r-i-s 

8 P-e-r-k-i-n-s. I'm here with the U.S. Green 

9 Building Council. 

10 I'm here to talk mostly about LEED 

11 buildings. LEED stands for Leadership in Energy 

12 in an Environmental Design. Whole-building 

13 approaches optimize electric efficiency. One 

14 proven approach to achieving emissions reductions 

15 related to energy efficiency is whole-building 

16 efficiency approaches. These approaches 

17 implement a suite of measures rather than just 

18 individual equipment or single aspects of a 

19 building energy. To obtain deep savings in a new 

20 or existing building, above-code certifications 

21 are an important way of delivering whole-building 

22 approaches by requiring energy efficiency that is 
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1 a minimum level better than a referenced energy 

2 code, or that is better than the majority of the 

3 proportion of similar buildings, and a third4 party verification of this achievement. 

5 LEED certification can help mitigate 

6 emission reduction targets. LEED was first 

7 established in 1998 to recognize leading building 

8 technologies and practices. Over the past 15 

9 years, leaders in both the private and public 

10 sectors have voluntarily decided to use LEED to 

11 help ensure building better performance across 

12 energy, water, waste, and other environmental 

13 indicators. 

14 Typically, new LEED buildings achieve 

15 efficiencies of 25 to 40 percent over the current 

16 building energy code. The latest version, LEED 

17 Version 4, requires a minimum performance of 5 

18 percent or better than that of the ASHRAE 90.1-

19 2010. Additional points are awarded for higher 

20 levels of performance. For a state with a 

21 building energy code equivalent of ASHRAE 90.1-

22 2007, a building achieving the minimum LEED 
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1 requirement would represent a 23 percent 

2 improvement over baseline code, depending on the 

3 building type. 

4 In actuality, energy performances for 

5 most certified buildings would be substantially 

6 better than these minimum figures suggest, for 

7 two reasons. First, a study of projects 

8 certified under LEED Version 2009 shows that the 

9 energy achievement of most LEED projects has been 

10 significantly greater than the minimum. For 

11 example, in 2011 through 2013, the average design 

12 efficiency for certified new commercial buildings 

13 was 29 percent better than ASHRAE 90.1-2007. 

14 Secondly, whereas a building code is subject only 

15 to the code enforcement which can vary certified 

16 buildings are also third-party verified, adding 

17 assurance. Moreover, LEED can also be used in 

18 the Clean Power Plan context to deliver 

19 distributed renewable energy which some projects 

20 feature. 

21 LEED certification has bipartisan appeal 

22 and activates the private sector. Building green 
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1 is not a partisan issue. Healthy, safe, and 

2 efficient buildings resonate with a very broad 

3 audience and strike an important chord with those 

4 working to foster economic productivity and the 

5 growth of the emerging clean, green economy. 

6 The private and public sector have 

7 embraced LEED to create bottom-line benefits, 

8 among other things, reducing energy and water 

9 use, and along with that reducing operating 

10 costs. Indeed, 88 of the Fortune 100 

11 successfully used LEED to meet their goals. 

12 Developing companies and owners use LEED on new 

13 and existing things to add value to their 

14 portfolios. In fact, 436 million square feet 

15 were certified to LEED in the U.S. last year. Of 

16 the nearly 3,500 projects certified in the 

17 country in 2014, about 600, which is 18 percent, 

18 were federal, state, or local government, and the 

19 remainder private business institutions and other 

20 entities. 

21 By recognizing LEED, EnergyStar, and 

22 other above-code certification systems, states 
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1 can tap into a proven system to achieve deep 

2 energy savings. 

3 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Are there any 

4 questions, or follow-up questions? 

5 [No audible response.] 

6 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Dr. Chris 

7 Cuomo, please. 

8 DR. CUOMO: Thank you. Thanks for the 

9 opportunity to speak, and I want to say that it's 

10 really wonderful that the Obama administration 

11 has put forth the Clean Power Plan, and this is a 

12 historic opportunity for the U.S. to really seize 

13 the leadership on a global scale. And in light 

14 of the recent events in Paris, where we see the 

15 importance of making our values real through 

16 policy and law, and our social structures, the 

17 relevance of the Clean Power Plan really cannot 

18 be under-estimated. 

19 I am a professor of philosophy and 

20 women's studies at the University of Georgia. My 

21 areas of specialization are ethics and the 

22 intersections between environmental and social 
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1 justice. As a researcher and a scholar, it's 

2 also really gratifying to have seen, over the 

3 last decade, the way that the EPA has been a 

4 leader in work, bringing together social and, I 

5 might say, structural justice, including 

6 environmental justice, but other kinds of 

7 planning as well. 

8 The fact that I am a philosopher and that 

9 I work in environmental ethics, that might seem 

10 really esoteric, but of course it's not esoteric 

11 because laws and policies are the only way that 

12 we can make our values real in the world. We can 

13 be nice to the people around us, we can be good 

14 coworkers, we can be good people, all of that, 

15 but we cannot make big structural and social 

16 change without law and policy. It's just too bad 

17 but that it why we have things like democracy on 

18 this planet. 

19 My research shows -- and I'll be 

20 submitting an academic paper as part of my 

21 written testimony today -- but my research shows 

22 that actually -- and you probably know this too 
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1 -- that it's impossible for us, human beings, to 

2 address climate change on a personal level. We 

3 need changes at the institutional level. We get 

4 a lot of guilt-tripping about changing light 

5 bulbs and not driving as much, et cetera, but we 

6 are all locked into system that make it 

7 impossible to not use light bulbs and electricity 

8 and cars, and do things like, right now, burn 

9 coal. 

10 I'm a climate change activist but anybody 

11 could call me on the carpet for my inconsistency 

12 and the inconsistencies with my practiced and my 

13 values because I turn the lights on and I burn 

14 coal that probably makes kids really sick, in 

15 Kentucky. So the fact that I cannot actualize my 

16 values without the help of policy-makers and law17 makers makes this a crucial issue. We hear a lot 

18 about how people don't care, people don't care. 

19 Well, people do care, but what are they going to 

20 do with their caring? We can only enact our 

21 caring through policy and law. 

22 A recent study by the Pew Research 
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1 Center, just released last week, showed that 75 

2 percent of American women and 57 percent of 

3 American men -- I won't go into the gender; you 

4 can figure that out yourself -- say that they are 

5 aware that lifestyle changes will be necessary to 

6 address climate change. That's all, just 

7 awareness that lifestyle changes will be 

8 necessary, and we know that those lifestyle 

9 changes, some of them may be painful, some of 

10 them might actually be very gratifying if you get 

11 to spend more time with people that you love 

12 instead of looking at screens. But changes are 

13 needed. They're needed to continue economic 

14 growth and they're needed for health and for the 

15 well-being of our planet. We know that. 

16 If we can't implement the Clean Power 

17 Plan we can't do anything. This is it. This is 

18 where it has got to begin, and as I said at the 

19 beginning, we've got to be the leaders for the 

20 world. Policy is the only route that we have. 

21 Individuals, families, communities at the smaller 

22 scale need to be empowered by, and enabled by 
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1 this kind of policy at the highest level, period. 

2 We cannot do it on our own. 

3 I live in Decatur; I work in Athens, 

4 Georgia. I also do research in northernmost 

5 Alaska, the northern slope of Alaska, ground zero 

6 for climate change. My research there shows that 

7 those communities are suffering right now from 

8 climate change. We know that it's happening in 

9 America. It's not just poor women living in huts 

10 in a tidal zone in Indonesia. Americans are 

11 affected and it's not just through catastrophic 

12 events like Katrina. It's through the everyday 

13 melting that's happening on the tundra in Alaska. 

14 So on behalf of many Americans and on 

15 behalf of our environmental values, which are 

16 part of our American legacy, I want to just 

17 express really strong support for the Clean Power 

18 Plan and I thank the EPA for even putting it 

19 forward. 

20 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Dr. Cuomo, and 

21 if you would please, before I ask the panel if 

22 they have any follow-up questions, state and 
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1 spell your name for the court reporter. 

2 DR. CUOMO: Yes. Chris Cuomo. C-h-r-i-s 

3 Cuomo, C-u-o-m-o. 

4 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you. Any 

5 follow-up? 

6 MR. BOSWELL: Just to submit the papers 

7 you're referencing, would be great. 

8 DR. CUOMO: Will do. Thank you. 

9 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you both for 

10 your testimony, for being here. 

11 At this time I'd like to invite Keith 

12 Daniel to please come forward for testimony. 

13 You're it. Good morning. 

14 MR. DANIEL: Good morning. 

15 MR. THOMPSON: If you could start by 

16 stating and spelling your name for the court 

17 reporter and then proceed with your testimony, 

18 sir. 

19 MR. DANIEL: Thank you. My name is Keith 

20 Daniel, K-e-i-t-h D-a-n-i-e-l, and I'm the 

21 Senior Vice President of Transmission Policy for 

22 Georgia Transmission Corporation. 
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1 Georgia Transmission is a transmission 

2 cooperative whose primary purpose is to provide 

3 transmission service to its 38 members, member 

4 electric cooperatives. We own 3,100 miles of 

5 transmission lines and close to 700 substations, 

6 and serve a peak load of around 9,000 megawatts. 

7 Georgia Transmission believes that with 

8 the Clean Power Plan EPA has exceeded its 

9 authority into the Clean Air Act and we are 

10 participating within NRECA in challenging it. 

11 However, today I would like to discuss the impact 

12 of the Clean Power Plan on the transmission 

13 system and the necessity of including a 

14 reliability safety valve in the federal plan. 

15 The Clean Power Plan means an 

16 unprecedented shift in the country's generation 

17 mix. Fewer traditional synchronous generators 

18 and more intermittent renewables will bring about 

19 a significant change in the operation of the bulk 

20 power system. The Eastern Interconnection is one 

21 of the largest and most complicated machines in 

22 the world and a key component of this is the grid 
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1 that links the generators to the loads. However, 

2 the transmission grid depends on generation to 

3 provide a central reliability service and to 

4 ensure the machine runs properly. 

5 NERC is projecting that we will see 

6 80,000 megawatts of generation retired by 2022, 

7 and with most of that being traditional steam 

8 generation utilizing coal and natural gas. That 

9 retired generation is expected to be replaced 

10 with predominantly natural gas, wind, and solar 

11 resources. 

12 Retiring generation can have negative 

13 impacts on the transmission system. First of 

14 all, removing generation changes the power flows 

15 and can cause overloads on the existing grid. In 

16 addition, large synchronous generators provide 

17 inertia and stability that electronics cannot 

18 fully emulate. But the bulk system impacts don't 

19 stop there. Most intermittent generation does 

20 not have a firm fuel supply and cannot provide 

21 firm capacity. A central reliability service 

22 such as load-following, spinning reserves, 
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1 frequency response, voltage support and 

2 regulation can only provide it by intermittent 

3 generation if some capacity is held in reserve, 

4 and that does not seem likely. 

5 Short-circuit capability, which is 

6 important for transmission relaying systems to 

7 work properly, is not supplied by electronically 

8 based renewable generation. Excessive ramping 

9 rates and generation minimum levels are other 

10 concerns, which become magnified with increasing 

11 levels of intermittent generation. 

12 All of these issues introduce the 

13 potential for reliability gaps. The present 

14 transmission system is planned on particular 

15 criteria such as peak and off-peak loads, certain 

16 generation, and transmission assumptions. 

17 Transmission planners note that these specific 

18 set of circumstances may never occur, but from 

19 experience we recognize that planning for these 

20 conditions provides enough redundancy and margin 

21 for the system to be able to operate successfully 

22 under a vast majority of adverse conditions that 
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1 actually occur. The removal of large synchronous 

2 generators and the addition of many electronic3 based intermittent resources will introduce more 

4 uncertainty and will reduce the margin that we 

5 have today. 

6 Because of these potential reliability 

7 gaps, we could find ourselves subject to a major 

8 system disturbance that just a few years earlier 

9 the system would have ridden through. This is 

10 not to say that renewable generation is a bad 

11 thing, but as penetration levels rise, there is 

12 much more uncertainty about how the bulk system 

13 will respond. In addition, we do not yet have 

14 significant experience with studying and planning 

15 for large amounts of asynchronous generation. 

16 So there will be significant challenges 

17 for the transmission system as a result of the 

18 Clean Power Plan. Increased renewable 

19 penetration will either increase cost, decrease 

20 reliability, limit operational flexibility, or 

21 most likely some combination of those three. 

22 Transmission improvements will take time with 
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1 that time, with the higher voltages and longer 

2 lines, that time increases. Thus, allowing 

3 exceptions to the carbon limits to address 

4 critical reliability situations, which is the 

5 reliability safety valve, in the federal plan as 

6 is allowed in state plans is critical to ensure 

7 the most reliable bulk power system. 

8 In conclusion, the location and type of 

9 generation is critical for grid reliability. 

10 Generation is more than just a megawatt output, 

11 and as the penetration levels of renewables 

12 increase, challenges to the transmission grid 

13 increase as well. Given the appropriate amount 

14 of time for transmission improvements, these 

15 challenges, for the most part, can be addressed. 

16 However, that means additional transmission costs 

17 on top of the additional generation cost required 

18 by the Clean Power Plan. The federal plan needs 

19 to be as flexible as possible, and should include 

20 a reliability safety valve. 

21 Thank you for your attention and the 

22 opportunity to speak today. 
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1 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Daniel. 

2 Are there any follow-ups for Mr. Daniel? 

3 [No audible response.] 

4 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you very 

5 much, sir. 

6 At this time I'd like to invite Doug 

7 Fulle and June Deen to please come forward. 

8 Good morning to the both of you and 

9 thanks for coming. I'd like to begin by having 

10 you state and spell your name for the court 

11 reporter, and please begin with your testimony. 

12 MR. FULLE: My name is Doug Fulle. 

13 That's F-u-l-l-e. I'm the Vice President of 

14 Environmental Affairs for Oglethorpe Power 

15 Corporation. We're glad to take this opportunity 

16 to provide some initial comments on the proposed 

17 federal plan and model rules of the Clean Power 

18 Plan. 

19 Oglethorpe Power is one of the nation's 

20 largest not-for-profit electric power supply 

21 cooperatives with nearly $10 billion in assets 

22 and serving 38 electric membership corporations, 
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1 or ERCs, which collectively provide electricity 

2 to more than 4.2 million Georgians. 

3 As an initial matter, we believe the 

4 Clean Power Plan is beyond EPA's authority under 

5 the Clean Air Act and we are participating in 

6 challenges to it through the National Rural 

7 Electric Cooperative Association and the Utility 

8 Air Regulatory Group. However, I do not plan to 

9 discuss the legal basis for these challenges 

10 today. Rather, in the event that the plan does 

11 survive legal challenges, we want to ensure that 

12 the proposed federal plan and model rules are 

13 modified so as to minimize the financial and 

14 reliability impacts on more than 4 million 

15 Georgians served by the EMCs, many in 

16 economically disadvantaged areas with lower wages 

17 than in other areas of the state. These people 

18 are least able to afford any additional increases 

19 in their energy costs due to new environmental 

20 regulations. 

21 Therefore, we are providing detailed 

22 written comments by January 21st, and some 
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1 initial thoughts follow. 

2 First, both rate-based and mass-based 

3 federal plans should be finalized rather than 

4 just one, allowing states to choose the approach. 

5 Those plans should be finalized sooner rather 

6 than later, ideally before September of 2016, in 

7 order to allow the states to evaluate their 

8 options. 

9 Second, if EPA refuses to finalize both 

10 rate-based and mass-based plans, EPA should 

11 finalize the rate-based plan as it allows the 

12 affected electric generating units more 

13 flexibility to deal with increased demand or 

14 reliability issues. A rate-based plan would also 

15 provide a more direct transparent mechanism for 

16 recognizing low carbon resources. 

17 While either approach will result in 

18 increased costs, we believe, based on preliminary 

19 modeling, that the rate-based method would be 

20 less expensive for Georgia. Also, the cost could 

21 be reduced further if the points we make here 

22 today and the detailed comments we will provide 
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1 in January are incorporated. 

2 Third, trading should be allowed between 

3 rate-based and mass-based states in the federal 

4 plans and model rules, as well as in the Clean 

5 Power Plan itself. Such trading would be 

6 possible if emission reduction credits, or ERCs, 

7 would be denominated in tons of CO2 in addition 

8 to megawatt hours. States could determine for 

9 each ERC issued an equivalent number of tons of 

10 CO2 avoided. As allowances are denominated in 

11 tons of CO2, there would be a common tradable 

12 currency. Allowances brought in to rate-based 

13 states could be used to reduce the tons of CO2 in 

14 the numerator while determining compliance with 

15 the allowable state rate. Trading among states 

16 using the various compliance pathways should 

17 lower the overall cost of the plan for 

18 electricity consumers. 

19 Fourth, the option for a Clean Energy 

20 Incentive Program should be included in both the 

21 final federal plans -- both of them, rate- and 

22 mass-based. Further, eligibility for the program 
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1 should be expanded to include incremental nuclear 

2 generation as well as other zero or low emitting 

3 generation. Projects that begin operation, 

4 rather than construction, after the eligibility 

5 date, which should be October 23, 2015, should 

6 also be allowed. Participation in a Clean Energy 

7 Incentive Program should not change the overall 

8 state goal, rate or mass. 

9 Fifth, under the mass-based option, new nuclear 

10 generation should be eligible for inclusion in 

11 the renewable energy set-aside and also in the 

12 output-based set-aside. 

13 Finally, EPA must include a reliability 

14 safety valve in the federal plan as there is no 

15 reason to believe that it will be any less needed 

16 in a state that accepts a federal plan than in a 

17 state that chooses to develop its own plan. 

18 However, a set-aside should not be required. 

19 As I indicated earlier, these are our 

20 initial comments. We will provide detailed 

21 comments in January. Thanks. 

22 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Fulle. Any 
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1 follow-up? 

2 [No audible response.] 

3 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Ms. Deen, 

4 please. 

5 MS. DEEN: My name is June Deen. I'm the 

6 Senior Vice President of Public Policy and Health 

7 Promotions for the American Lung Association in 

8 the Southeast. 

9 Thank you for providing an opportunity 

10 for me to speak. As many of you know, the Lung 

11 Association's mission is to save lives by 

12 improving lung health and preventing lung 

13 disease. The American Lung Association believes 

14 that we need strong carbon standards to protect 

15 the lung health of everyone, especially those who 

16 suffer from lung disease. I'm here today to 

17 testify in support of strong federal and model 

18 plans that will help drive a shift to cleaner 

19 energy sources, address climate change, and 

20 reduce as much pollution as possible to protect 

21 our health. 

22 We support the Clean Power Plan to reduce 
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1 carbon and other air pollutants that cause asthma 

2 attacks, heart attacks, and premature death, and 

3 we want to make sure we achieve the EPA's 

4 estimated health benefits for the Clean Power 

5 Plan, including preventing up to 3,600 premature 

6 deaths in 2030, preventing 90,000 asthma attacks, 

7 and avoid 300,000 days missed from work and 

8 school each year. These health benefits will 

9 only come as states develop effective plans to 

10 meet the requirements set out by the EPA in the 

11 Clean Power Plan. And for those states who 

12 refuse to comply, it's critical that EPA have a 

13 way to ensure emissions reductions by taking 

14 actions at the federal level. 

15 We strongly support the Clean Energy 

16 Initiative Program as a promising encouragement 

17 to all states to start now to invest in the clean 

18 renewable energy sources of wind and solar. 

19 EPA's model plan offers states that option, but 

20 we would encourage EPA to make it a standard 

21 element in the final model plan, rather than 

22 allowing it to be optional. In the model plan, 
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1 states can opt out of the broad Clean Energy 

2 Incentive Program opportunity for renewable 

3 energy and improved energy efficiency programs. 

4 We recommend that EPA incorporate the 

5 Clean Energy Initiative Program elements fully in 

6 the model plan, rather than leaving this as an 

7 option for states to decide later. We need to 

8 have a strong Clean Power Plan in place to cut 

9 carbon pollution and lessen the burdens on the 

10 health of millions of Americans. We encourage 

11 EPA to adopt standards that will ensure we do as 

12 much as we can to fight these threats and protect 

13 public health. 

14 Thank you. 

15 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Are there any 

16 questions? 

17 [No audible response.] 

18 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you both for your 

19 testimony, and Mrs. Deen, before you go, you 

20 started your name but could you spell it for the 

21 court reporter please? 

22 MS. DEEN: Yes. It's June, J-u-n-e, 
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1 Deen, D-e-e-n. 

2 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you very much. 

3 Again, thank you both. 

4 Okay. At this time we're going to take a 

5 brief break until we get some folks in here to 

6 testify, so we'll reconvene here shortly. 

7 [Break taken from 9:44 to 9:51 a.m.] 

8 MR. THOMPSON: At this time I'd like to 

9 invite Thomas Beusse to please come forward for 

10 testimony. 

11 MR. BEUSSE: Good morning. 

12 MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for coming. If you 

13 could start by stating and spelling your name for 

14 the court reporter and then begin. 

15 MR. BEUSSE: Yes. Thomas Beusse. 

16 T-h-o-m-a-s B-e-u-s-s-e. 

17 Good morning, everyone. Like I said, my 

18 name is Thomas Beusse. I'm the Director of 

19 Government Affairs for the Georgia Chemistry 

20 Council. The Georgia Chemistry Council is a 

21 state-wide trade association representing the 

22 business of chemistry in Georgia, the state's 
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1 third-largest manufacturing sector. We employ 

2 over 19,000 Georgians in skilled, high-paying 

3 jobs in communities throughout the Peach State. 

4 We in Georgia, like those in the business of 

5 chemistry throughout the nation, and especially 

6 in the South, are presently enjoying a 

7 renaissance of domestic chemical manufacturing 

8 due to the low cost of natural gas. To date 

9 there have been 246 new expansion projects 

10 announced nationally. That's over $153 million in 

11 capital invested. This will lead to over 465,000 

12 permanent, high-paying American jobs by 2023. 

13 The low cost of our main feed back, natural gas, 

14 combined with abundant and affordable energy is 

15 what has spurred on this expansion. 

16 We are an energy-intensive industry. We 

17 use electricity not only to keep the lights on in 

18 our sites but also as a vital input for many of 

19 our processes. One of our main concerns is the 

20 effect that these proposed regulations will have 

21 on our utility costs, and the competitive 

22 disadvantage they would place on businesses 
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1 located within states that rely heavily on coal2 fired power due to significant rate hikes. 

3 It is one of our greatest concerns that 

4 this once-in-a-generation growth, and all of the 

5 benefits it will bring, which are on the cusp of 

6 realizing, would be derailed. In fact, it is our 

7 belief that EPA's plan oversteps its authority 

8 under the Clean Air Act and sets a troubling 

9 precedent, rather than focusing on emissions from 

10 individual sources, as the Act requires. EPA is 

11 attempting to wield control over the entire 

12 energy sector in each state. 

13 That being said, whatever final rule 

14 ultimately goes into effect, we believe that 

15 energy efficiency solutions must be a 

16 centerpiece. Energy efficiency is a low-cost 

17 proven emission reduction strategy and should be 

18 placed on an equal footing with low carbon, 

19 renewable energy technologies, whose reliability 

20 at this time may be questionable. 

21 On behalf of the business of chemistry in 

22 Georgia, and our over 19,000 employees, than you 
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1 for your time and have a good evening. 

2 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you for your time as 

3 well. Are there any follow-up questions of Mr. 

4 Beusse? 

5 [No audible response.] 

6 MR. THOMPSON: Again, thank you very much 

7 for being here. 

8 MR. BEUSSE: Thank y'all. 

9 MR. THOMPSON: At this time I'd like to 

10 invite Betsy Abrams and Pat Daugherty to please 

11 come forward. 

12 Good morning. Please. Beginning with 

13 Abrams, could you state and spell your name for 

14 the court reporter and then begin with your 

15 testimony. 

16 MS. ABRAMS: My name is Betsy Abrams, 

17 B-e-t-s-y A-b-r-a-m-s. It's on here too, if you 

18 need the spelling. 

19 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. 

20 MS. ABRAMS: And basically my background 

21 is as a meteorologist at The Weather Channel for 

22 22 years, and also a master gardener in DeKalb 
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1 County, Georgia now for the past 5 years. My 

2 feeling is, of course, you had a guy come up form 

3 the Chemistry Council -- big business as far as 

4 I'm concerned -- all worried about energy 

5 efficiency. 

6 My feeling about the whole thing is, one, 

7 global climate change is a reality. I don't care 

8 what anybody else wants to say. And it may cost 

9 a bit of money to have to go through everything 

10 and fix what's going on, but energy efficiency 

11 could be done in hotels, motels. You could have 

12 card stuck into things and fix that. Then there 

13 could be a lot of jobs for new technology. You 

14 could have offshore, the offshore wind farms. 

15 Instead of offshore drilling which is going to 

16 release more carbon dioxide into the air, have 

17 the offshore wind farms. 

18 Have solar power -- solar power in 

19 Georgia. There's plenty of sun here. Plenty of 

20 bright sunshine a lot of the year to get the 

21 solar power from. A lot of good jobs could be 

22 found for solar industry here. Electric cars 
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1 rather than gas-powered cars. Because everybody 

2 talks about more natural gas or more oil things. 

3 Again, you've got the carbon dioxide going up and 

4 it's a greenhouse gas, and no matter what people 

5 say about anything you have a situation now with 

6 the ice in the North Pole, less and less 

7 coverage, and it's a feedback kind of mechanism. 

8 People don't always realize that, where you note 

9 some ice and then you have less reflection of the 

10 sun coming off that, and you've got more and more 

11 warming from it, because more and more sunlight 

12 could come in on the dark waters there rather 

13 than the ice reflecting everything. 

14 So I don't care. People -- there might 

15 be a very tiny percent of, quote, scientists 

16 saying nothing's going on, but it's maybe 0.1 or 

17 0.2 percent. I think they're all paid off, 

18 unfortunately, by the big corporations to say 

19 nothing is happening. There's no such thing. To 

20 Fox News to say this is fair and balanced, that 

21 nothing is going on is, to me, very unscientific 

22 and very irresponsible. 
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1 I guess I don't really have much more to 

2 say than that. There's a lot of solutions and 

3 good things could come out of this. And from 

4 what I know, from hearing about Obama's plan, 

5 it's probably a step forward. 

6 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Ms. Abrams. 

7 Are there any follow-up questions from the panel? 

8 [No audible response.] 

9 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. No, please, if you 

10 could just remain, if you don't mind. Yes, 

11 ma'am. Thank you. Please. 

12 MS. DAUGHERTY: My name is Pat Daugherty. 

13 It's P-a-t D-a-u-g-h-e-r-t-y. I live in Bishop, 

14 Georgia. I work with various organizations. 

15 This plan is, to me, a huge example of 

16 extensive overreach by the EPA. According to the 

17 EPA itself, the regulation will cost $8.4 billion 

18 annually -- $8.4 billion. This is almost ten 

19 times more expensive than any other rule that 

20 they have come out with in 2015. The economic 

21 benefits that the EPA is claiming are based on 

22 speculation about public health and climate 
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1 change outcomes. There's no way for these 

2 estimates to be accurate since we don't know what 

3 other countries are going to do with respect to 

4 their emissions, and the record on making climate 

5 predictions is consistently inaccurate. 

6 The EPA estimates that 14 to 19 percent 

7 of coal power will be driven out of business, 

8 which is not exactly good for our struggling 

9 economy right now -- oh, driven out of business 

10 by 2030, under the plan. Thirty-nine percent of 

11 domestic energy comes from coal but this plan 

12 will probably close at least 66 coal plants 

13 across the country, which will drive people's 

14 jobs -- it will ruin their jobs. 

15 The coal industry employs approximately 

16 175,000 workers. A study by the American Action 

17 Forum found that as many as 34,000 of these could 

18 be lost as a result of the Clean Power Plan. 

19 Each coal industry job supports 3.7 other jobs 

20 across the country. Factoring these in, the 

21 Clean Power Plan could cost 125,800 jobs. In 

22 order for natural gas to fill the demand caused 
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1 by reductions in coal use, utilities will have to 

2 invest billions in new infrastructure, resulting 

3 in higher process for the consumers because, 

4 naturally, if companies have more expense they're 

5 going to have to make up that expense somewhere 

6 by charging consumers. 

7 In Great Britain, high energy costs have 

8 resulted in skyrocketing winter death rates, and 

9 the World Health Organization attributes many of 

10 these deaths to poorly heated homes. In 2013, 

11 the number of such deaths was 31,000, and this 

12 year it's expected to top 40,000. So increasing 

13 the cost of energy in the U.S. could cost 

14 American lives because people are struggling in 

15 so many areas. This would be way more expensive. 

16 It's not going to do what the proponents indicate 

17 that it will do, and I think it's just a really 

18 bad plan. 

19 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you for your 

20 testimony. Before you go, any follow-up 

21 questions? 

22 [No audible response.] 
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1 MR. THOMPSON: Well, thank you both for 

2 being here today. Thank you for your testimony. 

3 Okay. Once again, until someone else 

4 shows up to testify we're going to take a break, 

5 and if there's anyone in the audience that has 

6 not registered out front and would like to 

7 testify, please feel free to do so. Thank you, 

8 folks. 

9 [Break taken from 10:00 to 10:14 a.m.] 

10 MR. THOMPSON: Okay, folks. We're going 

11 to get started again. At this time I'd like to 

12 invite Reverend Ricki Soaring Dove to please come 

13 forward for testimony. 

14 Good morning. If you could start by 

15 stating and spelling your name for the court 

16 reporter and then begin with your testimony. 

17 REV. SOARING DOVE: All right. Reverend 

18 Ricki, R-i-c-k-i, Soaring, S-o-a-r-i-n-g, and 

19 Dove, capital D-o-v-e. 

20 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Please begin. 

21 REV. SOARING DOVE: I wasn't going to 

22 speak because I get nervous speaking, but I'm 
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1 pushing 90 years old. I don't look my age 

2 because I take good care of myself. And my 

3 daughter, I'm very proud of her. She just spoke 

4 and she's a scientist, and has been most of her 

5 life with The Weather Channel. 

6 I'm speaking as a reverend and as a 

7 holistic therapist, on an island off the coast of 

8 Maine for 50 years. I just left 3 years ago to 

9 retire. And the change on that island is so 

10 profound that that's what made me decide to stand 

11 up and speak. 

12 The ocean temperature, in 1959-60, when I 

13 started there, was 50 degrees at its maximum, 

14 which the fishermen told me is November 2nd, and 

15 then it starts cooling off. There were all kinds 

16 of fish, and somebody said about overfishing. 

17 That's not any part of the issue. That's just 

18 the greed of people who fish. But the big thing 

19 is the lobsters. Lobsters need a certain kind of 

20 clarity of water and also temperature. What's 

21 happened is we've lost a whole industry now, in 

22 50 years practically. 
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1 I've been speaking to a couple of lobster 

2 fishermen and a lot of them are getting rid of 

3 their boats. Their grandchildren, who started 

4 fishing, can't fish either because the lobsters 

5 now, the water is too warm so they're moving to 

6 Canada and Nova Scotia. Now, there's nothing any 

7 agency or any human can do about that except to 

8 understand that we have global warming. Whether 

9 you believe it or not, that's what's happening in 

10 the ocean. 

11 The other issue for me was that I worked 

12 at the medical center with people with terminal 

13 cancer and other illnesses, and that cancer, and 

14 also as a minister at hospitals in Florida, and 

15 why are we having babies with so much cancer, 

16 being born with cancer now if it isn't for 

17 pollution everywhere? 

18 So we have to address these issues and as 

19 a grandmother, I don't understand how anybody can 

20 bring children into this world without really 

21 looking, and being angry at what human beings are 

22 doing, and their stupidity, and the corporate 
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1 world is just poisoning our brains, I think, and 

2 we're just not thinking. What's going to happen 

3 to all these generations of children? 

4 So if anybody wants to ask any questions, 

5 I don't know what else to say. 

6 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you for that 

7 testimony. Let me just turn to my colleagues and 

8 ask. Would you guys have any follow-up 

9 questions? 

10 [No audible response.] 

11 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you so much for 

12 being here today and for your testimony. 

13 REV. SOARING DOVE: You're very welcome. 

14 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. At this time I'd 

15 like to invite Remy Devoe and Neil Herman to 

16 please come forward for testimony. Good morning. 

17 If you could start by stating and spelling your 

18 name for the court reporter and then begin with 

19 your testimony. 

20 MR. DEVOE: My name is Remy Devoe. It's 

21 R-e-m-y D-e-v-o-e. 

22 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. 
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1 MR. DEVOE: I have a speech but I might 

2 throw in some anecdotes if time allows. 

3 My name is Remy Devoe and I am a member 

4 of the American Nuclear Society, and I am a 

5 recent graduate from the University of Tennessee. 

6 We just drove from Knoxville so sorry we're a 

7 little bit late. I'm here to make a comment on 

8 the federal plan, suggesting that we include 

9 further incentives for nuclear power plants so 

10 that they don't shut down prematurely, like we've 

11 seen in the past few months, and also include 

12 incentives to promoted advanced nuclear power, 

13 advanced reactors, as well as small modular 

14 reactor designs, which are being developed now. 

15 So why I think that we really need to 

16 encourage the growth of nuclear industry, as well 

17 as renewables, over 60 percent of the clean 

18 energy produced in the United States is from 

19 nuclear, so it's a very robust resource we have 

20 for fighting climate change, and if we lose that, 

21 that will definitely set us back quite a bit. 

22 Even environmentalists -- I mean, I consider 
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1 myself an environmentalist -- climate scientists, 

2 and President Obama all stated that we need 

3 nuclear energy if we're going to really be 

4 serious about fighting climate change. And if we 

5 really want to stick to these goals we need to 

6 keep the power plants we now operating. 

7 Nuclear energy, it's a great complement 

8 to renewables. It runs night and day. It's a 

9 good base-load power source, which we can't find 

10 a clean, carbon-free source as of yet. It's also 

11 a good way for energy security in case there's 

12 poor weather conditions, like in the Polar Vortex 

13 we saw in the Northeast. Nuclear energy was able 

14 to provide electricity to help meet the demand. 

15 And if we close these plants, we're definitely 

16 setting ourselves up for a harder way forward for 

17 reducing our carbon emissions. 

18 The fact of the matter is that current 

19 nuclear operating plants are at risk of shutting 

20 down, and within the last month we've seen two 

21 plants announce that they will close because of 

22 economic pressure from lower natural gas prices, 
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1 which are from fracking. So I think we all agree 

2 that fracking is a bad thing, but they are 

3 decreasing the price of natural gas and that's 

4 part of the Clean Power Plan is that we should 

5 rely more on natural gas. Well, I think we 

6 should at least maintain the supply of nuclear 

7 energy that we have, if not grow it. That way 

8 we're not relying too much on one energy source 

9 over another. 

10 And in the plan there is a lot of talk 

11 about leakage, especially in this federal plan, 

12 and that really was focusing on leakage of fossil 

13 units. You could have the same thing happen 

14 where you lose a nuclear plant and you replace 

15 that with a new natural gas power plant, and you 

16 would effectively increase your carbon emissions. 

17 But that wouldn't be shown through your state's 

18 emissions, either rate-based. In mass-based it 

19 would. So I recommend that all calculations be 

20 done mass-based. That way it's completely fair 

21 and shows exactly what you're emitting from your 

22 state. 
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1 It's a very big, important deal close to 

2 my heart because I'm a nuclear engineer and I 

3 hope to help foster the next generation of 

4 nuclear energy in this country. Thank you for 

5 letting me talk. 

6 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you for being here, 

7 Mr. Devoe, and for driving from Knoxville to be 

8 with us this morning. Are there any follow-up 

9 questions for Mr. Devoe? 

10 [No audible response.] 

11 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you very much. Neil 

12 Herman. Is Neil Herman in the room? 

13 [No audible response.] 

14 MR. THOMPSON: Okay, folks. Again we're 

15 going to take a short recess and we'll reconvene 

16 momentarily. 

17 [Break taken from 10:22 to 10:27 a.m.] 

18 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. We're going to 

19 reconvene here. At this time I'd like to ask 

20 Molly Cagle to please come forward for testimony. 

21 Good morning. 

22 MS. CAGLE: Good morning. I'm Molly 
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1 Cagle, M-o-l-l-y C-a-g-l-e, and I'm the External 

2 Affairs Director at Manufacture Alabama, the 

3 state's only trade association dedicating to 

4 promoting and protecting the success of 

5 manufacturers and their partner industries. We 

6 represent manufacturers in a broad range of 

7 industries including iron and steel, chemical 

8 manufacturers, and paper producers. Affordable 

9 and reliable electricity is the lifeblood that 

10 fuels their operations, which is why we have 

11 serious concerns about the EPA's Clean Power 

12 Plan, since it will increase the cost of 

13 electricity and decrease grid reliability. 

14 For manufacturers, having access to 

15 reliable electricity is not a matter of 

16 convenience. It's a matter of safety and 

17 survival. Today's advanced manufacturing 

18 equipment requires an uninterrupted power source 

19 because the sudden loss of power can harm the 

20 equipment and even injure employees. While 

21 backup generators can provide a temporary power 

22 source for critical systems, they are expensive 
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1 to operate and are not designed to run an entire 

2 manufacturing facility. 

3 The Clean Power Plan will require Alabama 

4 utilities to shut down many of their coal-fired 

5 generating units, which will leave our state 

6 susceptible to power supply shortages during 

7 extreme weather. Unlike natural gas, which can 

8 experience transmission constraints during times 

9 of very high demand, power plants can keep enough 

10 coal on site to run their generating units for 

11 several weeks. During the Polar Vortex we 

12 experienced 2 years ago, coal-fired power plants 

13 keep Alabama power grids stable. If the Clean 

14 Power Plan had been in effect during the cold 

15 spell, manufacturers would have had to shut down 

16 their operations because the available power 

17 supply would not have been able to keep up to 

18 demand. 

19 The consequence of the Clean Power Plan 

20 that will be the most harmful to manufacturers is 

21 in increasing electricity costs. According to a 

22 recent study conducted by National Economic 
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1 Research Associates, the EPA's plan is expected 

2 to raise energy costs in Alabama by 19 percent. 

3 This will raise production costs and will make it 

4 even harder for Alabama's manufacturers to 

5 compete in a global market. The Clean Power Plan 

6 will likely force some manufacturing companies to 

7 shut down and others to move their operations 

8 overseas. 

9 We urge the EPA to fully consider the 

10 impact the Clean Power Plan will have on the 

11 manufacturing industry which employs 1 out of 8 

12 Alabamians. 

13 Thank you. 

14 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you for your 

15 testimony. Are there any follow-up questions? 

16 MR. BOSWELL: Just to submit the study 

17 you referenced. 

18 MS. CAGLE: Okay. 

19 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Okay. I don't 

20 think Mr. Herman is in the room but I'm going to 

21 ask, is Neil Herman in the room and ready to 

22 testify? 
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1 ATTENDEE: [Inaudible comment.] 

2 MR. THOMPSON: So you've moved yours. 

3 Thank you. 

4 All right. Again, we'll take a break 

5 until we have someone else present to testify. 

6 Thank you, folks. 

7 [Break taken from 10:30 to 11:34 a.m.] 

8 MR. THOMPSON: Okay, folks, we're going 

9 to get started again. At this time I'd like to 

10 invite Neil Herman to please come forward for 

11 testimony. 

12 Good morning, Mr. Herman. 

13 MR. HERMAN: Good morning. 

14 MR. THOMPSON: If you could begin by 

15 stating your name and spelling it for the court 

16 reporter, please. 

17 MR. HERMAN: Neil Herman. N-e-i-l 

18 H-e-r-m-a-n. 

19 MR. THOMPSON: Please begin. 

20 MR. HERMAN: Okay. I'm a student here 

21 representing the University of Tennessee and the 

22 Bredesen Center, which is an energy, science, and 
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1 engineering PhD program, jointly administered by 

2 UT and Oak Ridge National Lab. We have an 

3 interdisciplinary focus on policy and 

4 entrepreneurship, as well as engineering and 

5 science. 

6 At the Bredesen Center we have a student 

7 research group which is focused on understanding 

8 and analyzing the EPA Clean Power Plan from an 

9 independent perspective and sharing our results 

10 with the public. We have dozens of students 

11 participating in this project and meeting on a 

12 weekly basis. In that group, we have students 

13 with experience in the nuclear industry and 

14 policy, students who have worked with EPA in the 

15 past, who are involved in state politics, and 

16 most of the students who also conduct scientific 

17 research at Oak Ridge, and some with a background 

18 of working in power plants. 

19 Speaking as a member of this research 

20 group, I can say that I understand the 

21 motivations behind reducing greenhouse gas 

22 emissions and that we have high hopes following 
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1 the joint announcement by the U.S. and Chinese 

2 presidents, the two leading emitting countries of 

3 carbon dioxide, to reduce emissions 25 to 30 

4 percent by 2025 and 2030. However, I also have 

5 some concerns about the EPA Clean Power Plan, 

6 about cost and reliability of electricity and 

7 energy, and reservations about the EPA's claim 

8 that they are not picking winning technologies. 

9 Firstly I will start by talking about 

10 mass- versus rate-based calculation methods in 

11 the plan. The mass-based plan, in our view so 

12 far, is simpler and it makes more sense. It 

13 actually computes the amount of carbon dioxide 

14 that is reduced, whereas the rate-based plan 

15 depends on the energy portfolio of the state 

16 that's involved. 

17 For example, switching to natural gas or 

18 natural gas combined cycle, which seems to be the 

19 poster child of this plan, could actually be more 

20 favorable than building carbon-free generation 

21 such as renewables or nuclear power, and it could 

22 actually increase CO2 emissions while still 
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1 meeting the goals of the plan. 

2 A concern under the mass-based plan is 

3 the concept of leakage and how the plan would 

4 address this. Leakage, what it means is that 

5 because the Clean Power Plan only applies to 

6 plants built before 2014, so that if a plant is 

7 modified or reconstructed it doesn't apply under 

8 the Clean Power Plan but under the carbon 

9 pollution standards. The solution in this plan 

10 is to implement allowance, and 5 percent of 

11 allowances are reserved for a set-aside, and this 

12 allows states to support their current generation 

13 and prevent them from taking this work-around 

14 method by building new fossil fuel. However, we 

15 feel that the leakage solution is still overly 

16 complicated, difficult to understand, and we hope 

17 that it can be improved. 

18 My classmate Remy already spoke about the 

19 dangers to the nuclear industry, posed, in part, 

20 by unfair pricing in the energy market and the 

21 advance of cheap natural gas, which I believe 

22 these problems to the nuclear industry will be 
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1 exacerbated by this plan, especially the rate2 based approach, which supports, over every other 

3 alternative, seemingly, shutting down coal and 

4 replacing it with natural gas. 

5 Lastly, concerns about costs and 

6 reliability. The FERC, Federal Energy Regulatory 

7 Commission, has rightly expressed concerns about 

8 reliability under this plan, which relies heavily 

9 on renewables and natural gas, and both of these 

10 technologies, which are more sensitive to extreme 

11 weather and price disruptions. 

12 I believe there is a need for more 

13 supporting in this plan of maintaining our 

14 nuclear fleet, which can serve as base 

15 electricity source to support unreliable 

16 renewable energy. I also believe this plan, under 

17 the rate-based system, has potential to allow 

18 plans to increase their carbon emissions while 

19 counting for improvements under the sometimes 

20 strange EPA math, which would be a shame and a 

21 step in the wrong direction for fighting climate 

22 change while forcing our states and utilities to 
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1 jump through regulatory hoops without results to 

2 show for it. 

3 Overall, our group looks forward to 

4 continuing our analysis of the EPA Clean Power 

5 Plan, in all of its complicated glory, and we 

6 hope that our work can help the public and all 

7 interested parties to understand and benefit from 

8 the Clean Power Plan. 

9 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Thank you for 

10 your testimony. Let me ask my colleagues, do you 

11 have any follow-up? 

12 [No audible response.] 

13 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you very much for 

14 being here. At this time I'd like to invite 

15 Sonum Nerurkar and Yeou-Rong Jih to please come 

16 forward for testimony. 

17 Hi, ladies, and thanks for being here. 

18 If you could start by pronouncing your name and 

19 spelling it for the court reporter please. 

20 MS. NERURKAR: You did a pretty good job. 

21 So, hi. I'm Sonum Nerurkar. It's S-o-n-u-m 

22 N-e-r-u-r-k-a-r. 
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1 I'm here to give a statement of support 

2 for the Clean Power Plan and give recommendations 

3 on the Clean Energy Incentive Program. Climate 

4 change disproportionately impacts communities of 

5 color and the Clean Power Plan represents an 

6 unprecedented opportunity to address 

7 environmental inequities in the most vulnerable 

8 communities. I want to urge the EPA to make the 

9 CEIP a standard element in the final model plan, 

10 rather than allowing it to be optional for 

11 states. 

12 I recommend EPA target energy efficiency 

13 investments to low-income, multi-family housing, 

14 ensure allowance or options under the federal 

15 plan and revenue generated are prioritized for 

16 low-income residents in communities of color, and 

17 as a public benefit resulting from the option of 

18 these allowances, and ensure that allowance value 

19 goes to consumers through energy efficiency, bill 

20 rebates, workforce trainings, and other low21 income community investments. 

22 So those are my basic recommendations, 
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1 and personally, as a -- I was born and raised in 

2 North Carolina. I want to commend the EPA for 

3 putting forth this really impressive plan. I 

4 think this is a great opportunity to reduce 

5 pollution for future generations and for people 

6 my age who are looking to the future and looking 

7 for strict regulations against air pollution, so 

8 I commend you on that. 

9 And that's my statement, so thank you. 

10 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Are there any 

11 follow-up questions? 

12 [No audible response.] 

13 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you very much. 

14 Please proceed. 

15 MS. JIH: Hi. My name is Yeou-Rong Jih. 

16 That's Y-e-o-u, hyphen, R-o-n-g, last name, 

17 J-i-h. And just to get it out of the way, I 

18 support the Clean Power Plan. 

19 I know you guys have heard a lot about 

20 Tybee recently, Tybee Island, off the coast of 

21 Georgia, and that Paul Wolfe and Karen Grainey 

22 have both given testimonies and they've given you 
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1 really great statistics about it. But I just 

2 wanted to tell you a little bit about my personal 

3 story. My partner and I had the opportunity to 

4 live in Savannah for the past couple of years. 

5 He's stationed down there as an Army captain in 

6 Fort Stewart, and I went to Savannah, and I swear 

7 to God it's the most beautiful city I've ever 

8 seen in my life -- tall, live oaks, hanging moss, 

9 and a straight shot over to Tybee. It was about 

10 20 minutes from our house down Highway 80. 

11 My partner is absolutely obsessed with 

12 sea turtles -- and he's going to kill me that 

13 that's on federal record now, but it's true -- 

14 and we volunteer with the Tybee Sea Turtle 

15 Project, which meant every morning in the summer, 

16 that we had a chance to, we'd get to go to Tybee 

17 Island, and walk on the beach, and see the sun 

18 rise every morning, to see if sea turtles had 

19 come up to nest. And every fall we'd be able to 

20 go out on the weekends and sit by those nests, 

21 watch the sun set, and watch the stars come out, 

22 and see if little baby sea turtles crawled to the 
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1 ocean, and tried to protect them as they did. 

2 And through this opportunity we also got 

3 to know the people on the island as well, 

4 everybody from a UPS person who'd worked in the 

5 industry for 40 years before retiring to his 

6 perfect beach life with his wife. And then we 

7 had a single mom who was working to put her kid 

8 through college at Georgia Tech, and trying her 

9 best. 

10 These personal connections is what made 

11 the Tybee flooding so devastating 3 weeks ago. I 

12 think the proper term for it is called nuisance 

13 flooding, but it was far more than a nuisance for 

14 the people on the island. The entire Highway 80, 

15 the only road on and off the island, was flooded, 

16 not just for a day but continuously flooded 

17 during the evenings for an entire week. This 

18 meant that schools had to be closed, health care 

19 had to be taken care of. We had to have the 

20 Coast Guard on call just in case there was a 

21 medical emergency on the island. 

22 One particular story that really stuck 
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1 with me was the story of Kelly and Jeremy, who 

2 are chefs in Savannah, at one of the best 

3 restaurants in town, but they live out on Tybee, 

4 and for a full week they had to make the really 

5 hard choice of staying at work and making the 

6 money that supports their family or passing that 

7 Highway 80 before it flooded and getting back to 

8 their child, and making sure that his parents 

9 were home that night. So it was a really, really 

10 difficult choice for those families. 

11 The saddest thing about this is that this 

12 is just going to become more and more prevalent. 

13 The Union of Concerned Scientists had a study 

14 that said 40 years ago nuisance floodings only 

15 happened about 5 times off the eastern coast. 

16 This year it's about 10 times. By 2030, it's 

17 going to be 30 times. By 2045, it's going to be 

18 100 times if we don't change anything. 

19 Furthermore, according to the National 

20 Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, two21 thirds of Tybee could be under water by the end 

22 of the century. It seems really far away, by the 
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1 end of the century, but it's not for these 

2 people. In the meantime they're dealing with 

3 childcare issues, educational issues. They're 

4 dealing with loss of value for property. I know 

5 several people who are already considering 

6 selling their homes off of Tybee, places that 

7 they've lived for 20, 30, 40 years of their 

8 lives, because they're no longer going to be of 

9 value and they're scared for their lives and 

10 their livelihood. 

11 So we need to do more for these coastal 

12 communities. The Clean Power Plan is a great 

13 start. I think we need to continue protecting 

14 the federal implementation plan and making it 

15 stronger, and have even further reduction of 

16 carbon emissions. The federal implementation 

17 plan is particularly important to states who are 

18 resisting the Clean Power Plan, and I just want 

19 to apologize on behalf of Georgia for suing you 

20 over this plan. I don't trust, necessarily, that 

21 our legislators are going to propose the 

22 strongest of plans so I want you to have a great 
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1 backstop for us, to know that we're being 

2 protected. 

3 And I want you to keep in mind, to 

4 protect the most vulnerable communities, such as 

5 low-income and minority communities, and coastal 

6 communities that are going to be 

7 disproportionately affected by climate change. 

8 So keep us in mind, set a good example 

9 for the world, do more, protect our coasts and 

10 the people around the world. Thank you. 

11 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Thank you for 

12 your testimony and thank you for sharing those 

13 stories on behalf of the others there on the 

14 island. 

15 Before you go, colleagues, are there any 

16 questions? 

17 [No audible response.] 

18 MR. THOMPSON: Well, thank you both very 

19 much for being here today. 

20 Folks, we're going to do a really quick 

21 check-in at the registration table, at which 

22 point we'll make a decision on how we play to 
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1 proceed for the remainder of the a.m. session? 

2 Okay? So bear with us. 

3 [Pause.] 

4 Apparently we do not have anyone here to 

5 testify so what we're going to do is go ahead and 

6 break for lunch, and we'll reconvene here at 1 

7 p.m. Reconvene here at 1 p.m. 

8 Thank you all for being here this 

9 morning. 

10 [Lunch break taken from 11:48 a.m. to 

11 1:03 p.m.] 

12 MR. MITCHELL: Good afternoon, everybody. 

13 My name is Tim Mitchell and I'm going to be the 

14 chair of this afternoon's public session. Thank 

15 you guys for coming today. We really appreciate 

16 you being here with us on a Friday afternoon 

17 before Thanksgiving. Thank you for coming. 

18 Joining me on today's panel is Suzanne 

19 Rubini -- she's the head of our law practice for 

20 the Clean Air Act here in EPA Region 4 -- and 

21 Colin Boswell, from our Office of Air Quality, 

22 Planning, and Standards. Colin was instrumental 
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1 on writing the Clean Power Plan. Please feel 

2 free to engage them at the break. 

3 Fossil fuel-fired power plants are the 

4 largest source of greenhouse gases, carbon 

5 dioxide, specifically, and carbon pollution, 

6 accounting for 31 percent of U.S. total 

7 greenhouse gas emissions. Reducing carbon 

8 pollution from power plants is an essential step 

9 in lessening the impacts of climate change and 

10 providing a more certain future for the 

11 environment, our health, and future generations. 

12 We are here today to listen to your 

13 comments on the EPA's proposed federal plan and 

14 model rule to implement the Clean Power Plan for 

15 Existing Power Plants. 

16 On October 23rd of this year, the EPA 

17 published, in the Federal Register, its proposed 

18 federal plan to implement emission guidelines for 

19 power plants under Section 111(d) of the Clean 

20 Air Act. The EPA's 111(d) rule, also known as 

21 the Clean Power Plan, takes effect on December 

22 22nd of this year, and applies to affected power 
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1 plants that began construction on or before 

2 January 8th of 2014. 

3 The federal plan and model trading rules 

4 demonstrate a readily available path forward for 

5 Clean Power Plan implementation, and they present 

6 flexible, affordable implementation options for 

7 states. The model rules provide a cost-effective 

8 pathway to adopt a trading system supported by 

9 the EPA and make it easy for states and power 

10 plants to use emissions trading. It does the 

11 heavy lifting for states who may choose to use a 

12 model rule as their state plan. The EPA would 

13 implement the federal plan in any state that does 

14 not submit an approvable plan. 

15 This proposal, the one we're here to talk 

16 about today, includes four discrete proposed 

17 actions, the first of which is a rate-based 

18 federal plan for each state with affected 

19 electric generating units or EGUs; a mass-based 

20 federal plan for each state with affected EGUs; a 

21 rate-based model trading rule for potential use 

22 by any state; and a mass-based model trading rule 
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1 for potential use by any state. 

2 The proposed federal plans will achieve 

3 the same levels of emissions performance as 

4 required of state plans under the Clean Power 

5 Plan. Federal plans will be finalized only for 

6 those states with affected EGUs that the EPA 

7 determines have failed to submit an approvable 

8 111(d) state plan by the relevant deadlines set 

9 in the emission guidelines. 

10 In those states where a federal plan may 

11 be required, a final federal plan will implement 

12 the same emission guidelines for affected power 

13 plants outlined in the Clean Power Plan. It 

14 would not require additional control requirements 

15 or impose additional costs. Even where a federal 

16 plan is put in place for a particular state, that 

17 state will still be able to submit a plan which, 

18 if approved, will allow the state and its sources 

19 to exit the federal plan. 

20 States may take delegation of 

21 administrative aspects of the federal plan in 

22 order to become the primary implementers, or they 
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1 can submit a partial state plan in order to take 

2 over the implementation of a portion of a federal 

3 plan. States operating under a federal plan may 

4 adopt complementary measures outside of that plan 

5 to facilitate compliance and lower costs to the 

6 benefit of power generators and consumers. 

7 The proposal also includes a model rule 

8 for those states that are developing their own 

9 state plans. The EPA intends to finalize both 

10 the rate-based and mass-based model trading rules 

11 in the summer of this coming year, 2016. A state 

12 program that adheres to the model trading rule 

13 provisions specified in this rulemaking, when 

14 final, would be presumptively approvable. 

15 There are stand-alone portions of the 

16 model trading rules, such as the evaluation, 

17 measurement, and verification procedures for 

18 emission rate credits, or ERCs, that would be 

19 approvable even if a state adopted an approach 

20 that differs in other respects from the model 

21 rule. 

22 In addition, the proposal contains a 
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1 finding that it is necessary or appropriate to 

2 implement a Section 111(d) federal plan for the 

3 affected EGUs located in Indian country. CO2 

4 emission performance rates for these facilities 

5 were finalized in the Clean Power Plan, 

6 information on how the EPA will reach out to 

7 communities throughout the comment period, and an 

8 overview of the actions that EPA is taking to 

9 ensure that vulnerable communities are not being 

10 disproportionately impacted by the rulemaking. 

11 If you would like more details on the 

12 proposed rule, out in the lobby there are facts 

13 sheets that go over the basics, at the 

14 registration desk. 

15 Before we get started, I'd like to go 

16 through a few housekeeping items and ground rules 

17 that will make today's hearing hopefully run 

18 smoothly. First, please be sure you have checked 

19 in at the registration desk. Even if you are not 

20 speaking we'd like to capture a list of everyone 

21 who is here today, so please do that. If you 

22 signed up to speak online to speak please also 
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1 let them know that at the registration desk. I 

2 don't know that we're going to have too much 

3 trouble getting everybody worked in this 

4 afternoon but if you did sign up online please 

5 let them know that as well. 

6 I will call speakers up in pairs. If we 

7 have two at a time, I'll call you up in pairs. 

8 When your name is called, please come to the 

9 speaker table here. When it is your turn to 

10 speak, the microphones are on, please start by 

11 stating your first and last name and spelling it 

12 in full, first and last, for the benefit of the 

13 court reporter over here, who will be taking a 

14 transcription of today's proceedings, and the 

15 transcription will go into the formal docket for 

16 this rulemaking. 

17 Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 

18 comments. We have a timer light over here on the 

19 table. It goes green, yellow, and red. Green is 

20 for the first 4 minutes, yellow is your final 

21 minute, and when it turns red your 5 minutes are 

22 up. When you are finished speaking, please 
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1 remain at the table until the person next to you 

2 speaks, and then we'll ask for you to return to 

3 your seat. 

4 We are here to listen to you today. 

5 That's really the focus of today's hearing, just 

6 to hear what you have to say about the proposal. 

7 But panel members here may ask clarifying 

8 questions if we need a little bit more 

9 information from you. If you did bring a written 

10 copy of your comments or any other material that 

11 you would like to have submitted to the docket, 

12 and you have it with you today, please leave a 

13 copy of it with the court reporter on your way 

14 back to your chair, or you can also leave it with 

15 the registration desk and they'll make sure that 

16 it gets into the docket. 

17 We also have a number of other ways that 

18 you can comment. We also have comment cards in 

19 the lobby. You can fill one out and leave it 

20 with the registration desk, and if you want to 

21 comment in writing later, the docket is currently 

22 open and the instructions for submitting comments 
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1 to the docket are provided on a fact sheet on the 

2 proposal that is also available in the lobby. 

3 I'll just remind everyone that the comment period 

4 for this proposal closes January 21, 2016, so if 

5 you do want to provide comments you will need to 

6 do it by that date. 

7 Let me close by assuring you that EPA 

8 gives just as much consideration to comments we 

9 receive in writing as those that we do in venues 

10 such as this. So if you have more comments that 

11 you would like us to consider, please consider 

12 submitting them in writing to the docket. Your 

13 comments will be reviewed. 

14 If you have any questions during the rest 

15 of today, please don't hesitate to ask me or one 

16 of the panelists or the other EPA staff who are 

17 wandering around the halls here. And, again, 

18 thank you for taking the time out of your day to 

19 come and tell us what you think about the 

20 proposal, and we look forward to hearing your 

21 comments. 

22 So that's it, and I think we just have 
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1 one or two speakers, so let me call up 

2 Commissioner Tim Echols. 

3 COMMISSIONER ECHOLS: Hey. I'm 

4 Commissioner Tim Echols, E-c-h-o-l-s. I serve as 

5 one of the commissioners on the Georgia Public 

6 Service Commission in Georgia, one of 12 states 

7 that elect their regulators. And I am here, I 

8 think -- I don't think any of our other 

9 commissioners are speaking at this hearing, so 

10 I'm glad to be here representing the Georgia 

11 Public Service Commission. 

12 Let me just say by way of introduction 

13 that I own two electric cars and that I walked 

14 here today from the Capitol. I installed solar 

15 thermal on my Winterville home, and this is an 

16 area of great interest to me personally, as well 

17 as, of course, the Georgia Public Service 

18 Commission. 

19 I really wanted to come today and let you 

20 know that for us time is of the essence, and 

21 here's why. Around the time that the comment 

22 period will end, we will receive Georgia Power's 
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1 Integrated Resource Plan, which is a 20-year 

2 lookout that we do every 3 years, and this is 

3 required by a 1991 Georgia law. At about that 

4 time many states changed the way that they did 

5 energy planning, and in 1991 the Georgia 

6 legislature made that change. 

7 So we have a limited window during that 

8 time to do our planning, and once that plan is 

9 set, not a lot of flexibility for us to change 

10 that. So around April, we will begin hearings on 

11 the documents that they submit, and that plan is 

12 going to include information about coal units 

13 that will stay open, natural gas units that will 

14 be built or converted, any additional nuclear 

15 power that they think we should build, any hydro 

16 that we're going to build, any biomass. It's 

17 going to include all of that. We're going to 

18 hear from a number of interveners, of course. 

19 But at the end of the summer the commissioners 

20 will vote on this. 

21 So I'm really here today, one, because 

22 I'm so pleased that the EPA heard us and is 
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1 giving Georgia full credit for Plant Vogtle 3 and 

2 4. That is so important to our state. So thank 

3 you. Thank you very much for listening and for 

4 making that slight change in the rule. It really 

5 means a lot to us. But there is some significant 

6 clarification that we need in the state regarding 

7 biomass, and really regarding the list -- there's 

8 a couple of things -- the list of material that 

9 will be counted as zero CO2. 

10 It's important for us to have extreme 

11 clarity on this, because we're busy now working 

12 on the compliance plan, and let me tell you how 

13 the logistics of that works here in Georgia. We 

14 have, of course, Judd Turner over at our EPD, who 

15 is writing this thing, and he's the quarterback 

16 for this plan, working with our EMCs and our 

17 cities. But once this plan has got a draft form 

18 I'm sure Judd is going to come to the 

19 commissioners and say, "Look, we need Georgia 

20 Power to do this part of this plan in order to 

21 make it work." 

22 And so the biomass piece of this is very 
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1 important to us, because we want to -- obviously 

2 if the EPA smiles upon things like thinnings from 

3 our pine plantations -- I mean, if you consider 

4 our pine plantations sustainably managed lands, 

5 right, and we need clarity on that, then the 

6 thinnings from that, as we go through and make 

7 our forests healthy, if those thinnings can be 

8 counted as zero CO2, we want to know about that, 

9 put that in our integrated resource plan so we 

10 can -- maybe we put smaller biomass furnaces at a 

11 greater number of places around our state so it 

12 doesn't take as much diesel fuel to get that 

13 material to that facility. So these definitions 

14 are really important to us, in getting clarity. 

15 So that really was my message to you 

16 today, as I come to the end of my 5 minutes, that 

17 time is of the essence for us, and sooner is 

18 better than later. Thank you very much. 

19 Do you have questions for me? 

20 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you. Do you all 

21 have questions? 

22 I'll ask one clarifying question. I've 
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1 heard people use the phrase "interim IRP" as a 

2 potential pathway. Could you describe what that 

3 possibility is and means? 

4 COMMISSIONER ECHOLS: We haven't used 

5 that word at the Commission. I guess anything is 

6 possible, and certainly as we get into this 

7 planning period, as you know, converting coal 

8 plants to natural gas, or any of these things 

9 take an enormous amount of time. So if we did 

10 something temporarily, on an interim basis, you 

11 know, and then had to go back and change it, it's 

12 almost like going back to the drawing board. And 

13 in my experience, the power companies tend to 

14 want clarity. They're going to take the safest 

15 route. Georgia Power is not a radical, activist 

16 organization. It is a company that, you know, 

17 that's very careful about compliance, and they 

18 want to make sure that they're not wasting rate19 payers' money, ramping things up that are just a 

20 pipe dream. 

21 And so -- for example, Ken, we've got, in 

22 Thomaston, Georgia, just south of Griffin, we 
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1 have a biomass facility that's 90 percent 

2 complete. It's a gasification -- biomass 

3 gasification unit that is prepared to burn wood 

4 waste. We haven't brought it online yet. We 

5 haven't signed a power purchase agreement with 

6 them yet. But depending on your definitions and 

7 your list, it might make it feasible to do that, 

8 not only in Thomaston, Georgia, but in other 

9 places like where I was at yesterday, in 

10 Washington, Georgia, where there's a lot of 

11 forest, there's a lot of thinnings going on, but 

12 if there's not an economic model to get those 

13 thinnings out and over to this biomass plant 

14 where we have PPA, then it'll go for some other 

15 source. 

16 So we're very much interested in this 

17 feedstock that's going to be counted as zero CO2, 

18 and we want to maximize getting that out of the 

19 field and to the plant. So it's extremely 

20 important to our state, to the forest industry 

21 that we be a good steward of those resources. 

22 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Commissioner. 
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1 I appreciate it. 

2 COMMISSIONER ECHOLS: Thank you. 

3 MR. MITCHELL: Do we have any other 

4 speakers that have signed up? Can someone check 

5 please? 

6 [Pause.] 

7 MR. MITCHELL: So we don't have any 

8 speakers that are currently signed up so we will 

9 take a 25-minute break and we'll reconvene here 

10 at 1:45. 

11 [Break taken from 1:20 to 1:45 p.m.] 

12 MR. MITCHELL: So we'll begin again. We 

13 have our next speaker is Brionte McCorkle. So 

14 you'll have 5 minutes to speak, and your 

15 microphone should be on. If you would kindly 

16 start by saying and spelling your first and last 

17 name for the court reporter. 

18 MS. McCORKLE: Yes. My name is Brionte 

19 McCorkle. First name is B-r-i-o-n-t-e, last name 

20 M-c-C-o-r-k-l-e. 

21 MR. MITCHELL: Go ahead, please. 

22 MS. McCORKLE: Okay. Awesome. All 
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1 right. So I want to show you all a picture. 

2 This is my daughter. Her name is Aminata [ph]. 

3 She was born on August 29th. She is 2-1/2 

4 months, years old, and I believe that she 

5 deserves a clean energy future. 

6 A year ago I testified in favor of the 

7 Clean Power Plan and at the time I spent my 

8 testimony talking about myself and my future, and 

9 the things that I wanted to do, and it wasn't 

10 until she was born and I locked eyes with her for 

11 the first time that I realized, whoa, my future 

12 is here now. So everything that I'm doing is 

13 really for her, and for her future. 

14 And so there's, like, a lot of stuff 

15 going on right now and her future is really 

16 uncertain, the quality that she's going to have. 

17 Right now I'm sure you all have heard about 

18 what's going on in Paris and Beirut and Baghdad, 

19 and now Kenya, and there's so much conflict in 

20 this world. We've got human rights issues. 

21 We've got women's rights issues. There's just so 

22 much to deal with and all I can think is those 
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1 issues, like terrorism, those are hard problems 

2 to solve, but climate change, it shouldn't be. 

3 We know what the problem is, we know what the 

4 solutions are, we know who should be taking the 

5 steps to curb the problem. 

6 So that's why I'm here today, telling you 

7 all that I support the CPP, and it's why I'll 

8 continue to be present for any opportunities to 

9 move us toward a clean energy future. I don't 

10 think we're asking too much of states and power 

11 companies to implement this plan. Unfortunately, 

12 our leaders and power company officials, they 

13 seek to put their bottom lines, their personal 

14 interests in front of yours, in front of mine, 

15 and in front of my daughter's, and I just don't 

16 think that's fair. 

17 So I learned just before last year's 

18 hearing the fact, that I used in my comments then 

19 and I'll share one more time with you, because it 

20 just blows my mind every time I say it. I work 

21 for the Georgia Sierra Club. I do transportation 

22 work, and you guys know that transportation is a 
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1 third of the greenhouse gas emission pie, so 

2 that's why we're working on that. My job is to 

3 help expand transportation alternatives -- 

4 biking, walking, public transit -- and what I'm 

5 realizing each day is that what I have to achieve 

6 is behavior change. I've got to convince 300 

7 million Americans to get out of their cars and go 

8 for a walk, or take a bike, or share their cars 

9 with somebody, and that's really difficult. 

10 And I've also got to influence the way 

11 that we build cities, so we're talking about 

12 fighting developers, and elected officials -- you 

13 know, all this cronyism that goes on with the way 

14 that cities are built and developed. So it is 

15 very difficult for me to achieve victory, and 

16 when I do achieve victory it doesn't matter how 

17 many victories I achieve, not one single victory 

18 will achieve the same emission reductions as 

19 shutting down just one coal plant will. The 

20 statistic is shutting down one power plant is the 

21 equivalent of taking 2.5 million cars off the 

22 road. That's a lot of work for me. If I made it 
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1 my goal to take 2.5 million cars off the road, 

2 using transportation referendums, I'd be at work 

3 forever, for the next 50, 60 years. 

4 So, anyway, when I hear a power company 

5 saying that it's too difficult to implement what 

6 the CPP proposes, or that's too hard, or whatever 

7 the excuse is that they want to put out there, I 

8 just have trouble believing it. 

9 So I support the CPP. I believe if we 

10 take the steps to implement the plan now that 

11 maybe, just maybe, climate change will be one 

12 less issue that my daughter's generation has to 

13 face. 

14 Thank you. 

15 MS. RUBINI: I just want to clarify for 

16 the record, are you here on your individual 

17 capacity or on behalf of the Sierra Club? 

18 MS. McCORKLE: On my individual capacity. 

19 That's why I put it down at the bottom of the 

20 speech. 

21 MR. MITCHELL: And I'd request that the 

22 studies that you mentioned, if you could take 
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1 some time to let us know about the studies, a 

2 link to them, in maybe your written comments to 

3 the docket, that would be helpful for us to know 

4 that. 

5 MS. McCORKLE: I didn't bring the 

6 printout but I will definitely submit the written 

7 comments and make sure I cite those. 

8 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you. 

9 MS. McCORKLE: Thank you. 

10 MR. MITCHELL: We have to be patient as 

11 we go through the day. It is 10 'til, and no? 

12 She just spoke. No one else is waiting to speak; 

13 is that right? Okay. 

14 So it's 10 'til and we'll take another 

15 25-minute break and reconvene at 2:15, please. 

16 Thank you. 

17 [Break taken from 1:50 to 3:08 p.m.] 

18 MR. MITCHELL: Good afternoon, Ting Ma. 

19 Please come up and have a seat at the table. You 

20 have 5 minutes to provide your comments, and the 

21 microphone should be on, and there's a light here 

22 that will go yellow when you have 1 minute left, 
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1 and then red when it's time to stop. 

2 Would you start by telling the court 

3 reporter over here your name, and then spell it 

4 out for her. 

5 MR. MA: My name is Ting Ma, T-i-n-g, and 

6 my last name is M-a. 

7 MR. MITCHELL: Go ahead. 

8 MR. MA: Okay. So in setting these new 

9 regulations I believe that we need to not only 

10 pay attention to the reduction of greenhouse 

11 gases but we also have to keep in mind the lower12 income community who many times suffer the 

13 consequences of pollution first-handedly. Many 

14 of the power plants in our country are built near 

15 low-income communities, with the reason being to 

16 minimize the external cost of pollution that a 

17 power plant emits. 

18 I'm sure as most of you know, these 

19 external costs include deaths and chronic 

20 illnesses that are brought on by the power 

21 plants. We have known about this for a very long 

22 time now, but because our demand for energy is so 
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1 great we can only try and minimize these damages 

2 through taxes and pollution allowances. While 

3 these pollution allowances do not completely 

4 solve the damages of pollution, it does create 

5 incentives for energy companies to develop 

6 greener energy in the long run, and as a result 

7 lessens the health impacts on these communities. 

8 When new regulations are being set, we 

9 have to keep in mind how important these 

10 allowances are to the health of the people with 

11 lower incomes. I further believe that these 

12 pollution permits need to be re-examined and 

13 should be reassigned in a way not only to further 

14 push these industries into greener energy 

15 production but should also work towards bettering 

16 the health of the low-income community. 

17 We are now at a point where we don't just 

18 have to mitigate the damages on the low-income 

19 communities. For the first time, we can look to 

20 clean energy as a major resource for our energy 

21 demands. In Germany, a population of around 80 

22 million can satisfy up to 70 percent of its 
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1 electrical needs based on green energy at peak 

2 hours. This shows that tighter restrictions on 

3 production of greenhouse gas doesn't necessarily 

4 mean a loss of revenue or a tremendous gain in 

5 utility costs, and it is very possible for us to 

6 use green technology to better the well-being of 

7 people in poverty, with health and economical 

8 benefits. 

9 The Clean Power Plan presents a great 

10 opportunity to not only reduce the amount of 

11 pollutants in the air but to also help people 

12 with low socioeconomic status who are impacted by 

13 climate change. With revenues generated from the 

14 plan, there needs to be a long-term investment 

15 into communities disproportionately burdened by 

16 pollution and economics stress. I am concerned 

17 that in implementing new regulations, communities 

18 of color and low socioeconomic status might be 

19 burdened and pushed further into poverty when the 

20 plan could have, instead, brought them out of 

21 poverty, which is why communities with a low22 income status must be considered in the 
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1 implementation of the Clean Power Plan, and must 

2 net the environmental and economic benefit 

3 generated by the plan. 

4 I stress that the Clean Power Plan is a 

5 great opportunity not only for the planet but 

6 it's also a good chance for us to help a 

7 community struggling with poverty. 

8 Thank you. 

9 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you. If you would, 

10 if you're comfortable, we'd like you to leave a 

11 copy of your testimony with the court reporter, 

12 or if you would rather you can send it in to us 

13 in writing before the end of the comment period, 

14 which is January 21st. 

15 MR. MA: You can take this. 

16 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Yeah. Would you 

17 leave it with the court reporter? And, as I 

18 said, if you want to submit additional comments, 

19 you can ask outside at the registration desk and 

20 they'll give you instructions for doing that. 

21 MR. MA: Okay. 

22 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Thank you. 
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1 [Pause.] 

2 MR. MITCHELL: Yeah, so I believe we have 

3 additional speakers coming at 3:30, so we will 

4 reconvene when those speakers arrive. 

5 [Break taken from 3:13 to 3:30 p.m.] 

6 MR. MITCHELL: Are you ready? Okay. If 

7 you would kindly come up to the table. And the 

8 microphone should be on. If you would, please, 

9 you'll have 5 minutes to talk, and if you would 

10 start by stating your name and then spelling your 

11 first and last name for our court reporter. 

12 MS. MARLIN: Okay. Good afternoon. My 

13 name is Doris Marlin, D-o-r-i-s M-a-r-l-i-n, and 

14 I am here to state my support for the Clean Power 

15 -- let me just get this right -- the Clean Power 

16 Plan, and for the federal plan and model rules 

17 associated with it, so support for this action. 

18 I am a water resources manager with a 

19 master's degree in that field. I'm also a risk 

20 management professional. I do not speak on 

21 behalf of the Unitarian Universalist Association. 

22 However, I am going to the Council of Parties, 
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1 COP21, in Paris, in 2 weeks, as a member of the 

2 Civil Society and a credentialed observer on 

3 behalf of the Unitarian Universalist Association. 

4 I first learned of climate change in 

5 1991, when I was in graduate school, studying 

6 water resources, and my son was 3. He is now 27. 

7 Twenty-four years later the problem has only 

8 continued to magnify, so very disturbing. Also, 

9 I have been very active with the faith-based 

10 communities, with lots of associations in my 

11 region, which is Washington, D.C., area, and 

12 worked together also when Pope Francis came to 

13 the United States, worked together and 

14 participated and expressed and amplified his 

15 voice from the encyclical, Laudato Si, 

16 emphasizing the imperative to act for climate 

17 justice, respond urgently to climate change. 

18 Well, and those reasons are pretty -- 

19 they've been stated very well, and that is those 

20 who have done the least to cause climate change 

21 will be impacted the most. They will be hurt 

22 first and worst. Those that are the most 
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1 vulnerable with the least ability to adapt are 

2 the ones who will suffer the most, at least 

3 initially. 

4 So I come to you because I am a mother, 

5 I'm a member of the faith-based community, I have 

6 a science background, and with my risk management 

7 background I also know how important it is, and 

8 how compelled we are to act early to limit the 

9 consequences of climate change. 

10 In Lima, former Senator Kerry, Secretary 

11 of State Kerry said, "Look, a global climate 

12 treaty is not going to solve climate change. 

13 However, climate change will not be solved 

14 without one." Obama, President Obama stated that 

15 "our generation is the first to experience 

16 climate change and the last generation who can do 

17 anything about it." 

18 Climate change must be addressed 

19 globally. The Clean Power Plan is the 

20 cornerstone of the U.S. position to meet our 

21 carbon targets, INDCs, as part of that global 

22 agreement. So the Clean Power Plan, along with 
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1 other actions we're taking -- however this a part 

2 of meeting our global climate agreement, INDCs -- 

3 is essential. 

4 Therefore -- oh, and just on that note, 

5 over 150 countries have already submitted their 

6 carbon targets, and there are, you know, not too 

7 many left to go. But, unfortunately, the 

8 calculation shows that we will still hit -- is 

9 that yellow for me? Okay. Okay. So we will 

10 still get to 2.7 degrees of global warming, 

11 exceeding the current industrial level. That is 

12 unacceptable. That will just basically undermine 

13 life support systems as we know it. 

14 So we have to not only meet our targets, 

15 we have to improve on our targets. Without the 

16 federal plan and model rules, those states that 

17 do not step up to participating in the plan will 

18 have a solid regulation to meet and follow. And 

19 I thank you so much for letting me testify. 

20 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you. Thank you for 

21 your time. 

22 MS. MARLIN: Yes, things are changing. 
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1 Well, I mean, they're still following through 

2 with the Paris Climate Agreement but it's not 

3 going to be quite as envisioned. Thank you. 

4 MR. MITCHELL: I believe we are expecting 

5 a few people in just a few minutes, so we'll stay 

6 in place for the time being. Thank you. 

7 [Pause.] 

8 MR. MITCHELL: Dave, would you just check 

9 one more time for us? 

10 ATTENDEE: [Inaudible comment.] 

11 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Then we will take a 

12 15-minute break and reconvene at 3:50. 

13 [Break taken from 3:37 to 4:01 p.m.] 

14 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. Reefe. Thank you for 

15 coming to give your comments. You'll have 5 

16 minutes to speak, and we have the indicator light 

17 here. When it turns yellow you have 1 minute 

18 left, and when it turns red, that will indicate 

19 that the 5 minute are up. And if you would 

20 kindly begin your testimony by stating your name 

21 and spelling your fist and last name for the 

22 court reporter. 
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1 MR. REEFE: Can we wait to start the 

2 time, because I realized my pages are not in 

3 order. 

4 MR. MITCHELL: Well, yes, and while you 

5 do that I'll take the time to give you some 

6 additional instruction. 

7 MR. REEFE: Okay. 

8 MR. MITCHELL: If you would like to 

9 provide a hard copy today of any materials for 

10 the record, you can leave them with the court 

11 reporter. 

12 MR. REEFE: Okay. 

13 MR. MITCHELL: And if you would like to 

14 do that today, or later, you can submit 

15 additional written comments to the record, and we 

16 have instructions out at our table with where and 

17 when to send your comments by. The comment 

18 period closes -- I'm trying to spin this out for 

19 you -- our comment period closes on January 21st. 

20 MR. REEFE: Okay. Well, you know, I can 

21 see it's quite busy today. What happens if I go 

22 over a couple of minutes, a minute or so? 
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1 MR. MITCHELL: A minute or so would be 

2 fine. To be fair to everyone we have to limit it 

3 to 5 minutes. 

4 MR. REEFE: Right. I'm not going to read 

5 all this because obviously it's longer than 5 

6 minutes. 

7 MR. MITCHELL: So, are you ready to 

8 satellite art? 

9 MR. REEFE: One second. Sorry. 

10 MR. MITCHELL: That's okay. 

11 MR. REEFE: Would you guys like a written 

12 copy? There's a Part 1 and a Part 2, and I'm 

13 only going to read Part 1. 

14 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Thank you. 

15 MR. REEFE: Sorry if I have a little bit 

16 of hyperbole, but I'm going to try to be 

17 persuasive. 

18 MR. MITCHELL: We will consider all 

19 comments, written or oral. 

20 MR. REEFE: Okay. 

21 MR. MITCHELL: When you're ready. 

22 MR. REEFE: Hi. My name is Jim Reefe. 
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1 I'm visiting from Peachtree City, Georgia, and I 

2 have a few comments. Thank you for inviting me 

3 to speak today. 

4 MR. MITCHELL: Could you spell your name 

5 for the court reporter? 

6 MR. REEFE: The name is James P. Reefe. 

7 That's R-e-e-f as in Frank-e. 

8 Given what we know today, with every 

9 climatic indicator, where every climatic 

10 indicator is turning radically against us, is it 

11 right of the U.S. government to subsidize carbon12 based, industrial revolution technology at the 

13 expense of the biosphere? 

14 Let me digress. In 1968, I rode with my 

15 family up the New Jersey Turnpike from Delaware 

16 to Boston. Passing New York City we passed 

17 Elizabeth, New Jersey. We called it "smelly 

18 Elizabeth." Big oil and big chemical plants were 

19 there. The air was not fit to breathe. The EPA 

20 fixed that. Big oil didn't fix it. Big 

21 chemicals didn't fix it. The EPA fixed it with 

22 the Clean Air Act, signed into law by Richard M. 
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1 Nixon. At the time, was it popular with big 

2 business? No. Did they say it would impose 

3 undue burden on the business? Yes, the did. Did 

4 they say it would put them out of business? 

5 Sure, they did. Are there still oil and 

6 chemicals? Yes, there are, but as oil tech tends 

7 to fade into obsolescence -- maybe not so much 

8 longer. 

9 The point is the EPA has the position, 

10 the role, and the mandate to act in advocacy for 

11 the environment. It is uniquely positioned to 

12 judge the merits and make policy benefitting not 

13 the polluting economic interests, as they already 

14 know how to advocate for themselves. No. The 

15 EPA advocates for the otherwise unrepresented 

16 interests. 

17 If we talk about restrictions on 

18 emissions from coal, let us consider the pool of 

19 possible options. For example, the state of 

20 Texas generates 10 percent of the electrical 

21 power supply with wind power, and they're not 

22 even trying yet. From Harlingen to the 
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1 Panhandle, there in Texas, the wind blows. The 

2 wind blows mainly at night and the sun shines 

3 during the day, and with that dynamic duo, it may 

4 be that Texas, the home of the oil business in 

5 the United States, goes on the power grid 

6 completely renewable, first in the nation. 

7 Georgia has offshore wind resource, ready 

8 and available to be tapped. No technical barrier 

9 there. The same companies that specialize in 

10 developing offshore oil platforms want to put up 

11 wind towers offshore Georgia. It is economic 

12 opportunity sitting there waiting to be tapped. 

13 Investment money is sitting there waiting for the 

14 wind fields to open. Georgia, in addition, has 

15 extremely high solar power generation potential, 

16 also waiting to be tapped. 

17 Now, coming back to coal. Coal interests 

18 may complain about the economics of burdensome 

19 regulation, but this is disingenuous because, 

20 like the egregious polluters of smelly Elizabeth 

21 in the 1960s, in post-World War II America, they 

22 understand that when they are allowed to pollute 
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1 unregulated, it is the same as a subsidy. Why? 

2 Because the cost of that pollution is borne not 

3 by the company but by the people and the 

4 environment. Those costs are off the books, 

5 externalized. 

6 Those costs are real, and in the case of 

7 CO2, the cumulative costs will far exceed any 

8 benefit that was ever booked burning that coal. 

9 You and I both know that because of the lifetime 

10 of CO2 in the atmosphere it is a pollutant that 

11 will make us pay and pay and pay and pay. 

12 What is the cost of Great Smoky Mountains 

13 ecosystem decimated by acid rain from coal-fired 

14 power plants in the '70s? what is the cost of 

15 mountaintop removal to extract the coal? What is 

16 the cost of mercury pollution poisoning the fish 

17 in our waterways, rending them unfit for human 

18 consumptions? What is the cost of a plant frying 

19 in its own manmade oven of a CO2 terrarium? 

20 Now, if we look at the economics, coal 

21 books the profits and we book the costs, over and 

22 over and over. This is nothing new. It is the 
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1 fundamental characteristic of the economics of 

2 environmental exploitation. It is universal to 

3 these arguments. The economic interests book the 

4 profits and realize the game. The commons books 

5 the cost. Externalized costs are intrinsic to 

6 the fossil fuels business plan. It works because 

7 we let it. 

8 But the Earth cannot afford to let the 

9 costs go unaccounted for any longer. The time 

10 has come to internalize the cost of the 

11 environment, on the books, for the fossil fuel 

12 economic interests. Only then can the markets 

13 support sound decision-making about the 

14 allocation of resource and the selection of power 

15 generation technology. Accepting the status quo 

16 of externalized costs for fossil-fueled business, 

17 we are, in fact, complicit in the failure of the 

18 markets to judge the tradeoffs necessary for 

19 proper allocation of resource, across the globe, 

20 over time. Because the costs are spread 

21 geographically and deferred, traditional economic 

22 measures fail to properly consider them. 
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1 Advocacy for the buck here and now is 

2 easy. Advocacy for the commons everywhere and 

3 now and into the distant future is difficult. It 

4 is this difficult role that falls on the 

5 professional ranks of the EPA. You are our last, 

6 best, and only line of defense. You are our only 

7 offense. Help us to correct the failures of cost 

8 account that discount the damage to zero in spite 

9 of all the evidence to the contrary. What we are 

10 talking about is a point of no return. On a flat 

11 earth, where if you navigate to close to the edge 

12 you simply go over. Ecology is a battleship 

13 running full bore, steering directly to the edge. 

14 Everyone left the wheel house. Now we ask the 

15 EPA to pick up the gauntlet, use it as a 

16 battering ram, and get back into the wheelhouse 

17 to correct the course -- now, before it is too 

18 late. 

19 In the U.S., the EPA is the mediating 

20 force, the check and the balance, the 

21 counterpoint to the powerful economic advocacy of 

22 commercial enterprise, in this case of the fossil 
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1 fuel business, some of the most profitable 

2 businesses on the planet, only because they don't 

3 book their costs. 

4 Here today I will make a prediction. 

5 With all economic indicators trending radically 

6 against us and none trending for us, whatever you 

7 do here today will pale in comparison to the 

8 radical and sweeping changes that will very soon 

9 be considered mandatory and necessary to save the 

10 biosphere. 

11 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. Reefe, I'm sorry. We 

12 do need to ask you to close up your comments. 

13 MR. REEFE: Okay. Let me jump to the 

14 end. Was that 5 minutes already? 

15 MR. MITCHELL: Yes -- 6 now. 

16 MR. REEFE: Oh, okay. Wow. 

17 MR. MITCHELL: Almost 7, so, yeah, if you 

18 would please close your comments. 

19 MR. REEFE: I'm sorry. 

20 MR. MITCHELL: And we will consider all 

21 of your comments in the record. 

22 MR. REEFE: And to that end, I ask my 
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1 government and my EPA, having done the good deed 

2 in the past, do you have the fortitude and the 

3 wherewithal to act in fine stead with the good 

4 traditions of the EPA, and advocate for every 

5 living creature walking the planet. Please 

6 advocate for us. Thank you. 

7 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you for your 

8 comments. Do we have other questions? 

9 [No audible response.] 

10 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Thank you very much 

11 for you time. We appreciate it. Again, if you 

12 want to submit these in writing through the 

13 docket process you can do that as well. Thank 

14 you. 

15 Our next commenter is -- and pardon me if 

16 I say this incorrectly -- Kaylon Paterson and Ian 

17 Karra. Would you join us at the desk here. So 

18 we'll each have 5 minutes to talk, and if you 

19 would start by stating your name and spelling 

20 your name for the court reporter, and if you have 

21 hard copies of materials you would like to leave 

22 with us today, please leave them with the court 
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1 reporter. So go ahead. 

2 And if you're not aware, we have a red, 

3 green, and yellow light, yellow meaning you have 

4 1 minute left, and red, of course, meaning stop. 

5 Thank you. 

6 MR. KARRA: Hi. My name is Ian Karra. 

7 That's I-a-n, last name is K-a-r-r-a. I am the 

8 organizing representative with the Beyond Coal 

9 Campaign with the Sierra Club for the state of 

10 Georgia. So I wanted to share a little bit about 

11 why I am in favor of a strong and just federal 

12 implementation plan, particularly being a life13 long resident of Georgia. I've been a resident 

14 of Georgia for 20 years. 

15 My mother is from Lima, Peru. She 

16 emigrated to this country in the '70s, after the 

17 passage of the Clean Air Act. That wasn't the 

18 reason, but where she grew up, in Lima, it was 

19 such a bad place for air quality. Smog was 

20 particularly a huge problem, so her and her five 

21 sisters were never allowed to go outside and play 

22 outside because the air quality was so bad. So 
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1 that's something that she has recounted to me, 

2 that when she emigrated to the United States for 

3 better economic opportunities, clean air was 

4 something that was a co-benefit, that she didn't 

5 really expect, and had access to for the first 

6 time in her life, in her 30s. 

7 Now I am an environmentalist myself. I 

8 wish on pushing for cleaner energy sources, lower 

9 carbon sources of energy, and at my previous 

10 employer, Southface [ph], they conduct a clean 

11 energy industry census, which found, in 2014, 

12 that over 19,000 jobs were provided through the 

13 clean energy industry in Georgia, and that 

14 includes jobs in the solar industry, wind 

15 manufacturing, and energy efficiency, in 

16 particular, is a huge part of that. By contrast, 

17 Georgia Power employs 8,300 or thereabouts, 

18 throughout the state. So it's a fallacy that the 

19 Clean Power Plan will be a job-killer. Following 

20 the passage of the Clean Air Act we heard these 

21 same concerns that jobs would be destroyed, that 

22 electricity rates would go up, and it would wreak 
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1 havoc on the economy. 

2 So we're kind of in a similar position 

3 right now, where we're creating this false 

4 dichotomy between environment and economy, that 

5 doesn't need to exist. Clearly the jobs that the 

6 clean energy industry provides are substantial, 

7 they're good jobs, they're full-time jobs, and 

8 particular the solar industry in Georgia, in the 

9 first quarter of 2015, the solar industry created 

10 over 2,000 new jobs in Georgia. 

11 So I think that a strong and just fit 

12 will be more than incentive enough for states to 

13 comply with the Clean Power Plan. For the states 

14 that are in opposition to the Clean Power Plan, 

15 this is a hugely important backstop for these 

16 states to emphasize renewables and energy 

17 efficiency in meeting the compliance demands of 

18 the Clean Power Plan. 

19 So now I feel like I'm in a similar 

20 position as my mother, as I'm on the frontier of 

21 being faced with this choice between clean air 

22 and good jobs. But she came to this country to 
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1 be able to have access to both, and I think that 

2 is still an option for Americans, and I hope that 

3 through creating a strong and just fit that 

4 focuses on meeting the emissions reductions, 

5 goals, in the Clean Power Plan and going even 

6 further beyond that, that we can help folks that 

7 are in the most vulnerable communities, low8 income communities, communities of color, people 

9 who are faced with negative health impacts, from 

10 fossil fuel infrastructure, that they too can 

11 have access to clean air and better jobs. 

12 Thank you for the opportunity to testify, 

13 and I'm happy to answer any questions. Thank you. 

14 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you for your 

15 comments. Do you all have any questions? 

16 Ms. RUBINI: You cited a couple of 

17 statistics in your remarks. If you could include 

18 the source for those statistics in your written 

19 comments that would be great. 

20 MR. KARRA: Sure, so particularly the 

21 jobs numbers? Sure. 

22 MR. MITCHELL: If you don't have them 
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1 today, the docket is open until the 21st of 

2 January. You can submit them in writing. 

3 MR. KARRA: And I will make sure to round 

4 up others' comments by then too. 

5 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Thank you. Go 

6 ahead, please. 

7 MR. PATERSON: Good evening. My name is 

8 Kaylon Paterson, K-a-y-l-o-n P-a-t-e-r-s-o-n. I 

9 am a scientist and environmental activist. I'm 

10 the founder of Amicus Terrae, an environmental 

11 organization started 2 years ago, and I'm here 

12 today to speak on behalf of myself as well as the 

13 small island nation of Trinidad and Tobago, which 

14 is directly affected by whatever this decision 

15 is. 

16 So to begin with, I'd like to say that 

17 clean air is definitely an aspect of 

18 environmental justice that needs to be addressed, 

19 because environmental justice is for everyone and 

20 it has not been addressed. It has been ignored 

21 largely for a long time, and so as we move 

22 towards a new climate change agreement, climate 
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1 policy, I call to anyone in Paris this year, the 

2 hope is that environmental justice will be more 

3 largely observed and, you know, be made to be 

4 more important, especially as a civil right, as a 

5 right for humans. 

6 I'd like to say that being born and 

7 raised in a different country, I was surrounded 

8 by a lot of nature, a lot of ecology environment, 

9 and so when I came over here -- yes, I am a 

10 citizen -- when I came over here I was thrown 

11 back by the lack of, you know, any formal policy 

12 that protected what is left in America. And so I 

13 continue to work towards, you know, my 

14 environmental work, towards, you know, preserving 

15 the world as best as I can, preserving the 

16 environment, and the more I work towards that is 

17 the more I realize that there are not many people 

18 who care. There's not a lot of change being 

19 done. 

20 And so now, as this policy comes up, we 

21 realize that, okay, there is a possibility that 

22 we can get people to care, and so even if they 
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1 continue not to care, at least the government is 

2 forcing people to care, which is something that 

3 needs to happen, because, honestly, the world is 

4 going south, in terms of temperature, in terms of 

5 everything, and if we don't do something now 

6 there's not going to be a lot of air to breathe, 

7 there's not going to be my island for you guys to 

8 visit when you go on vacation, there's not going 

9 to be anything else. So that's why I'm here 

10 testifying. 

11 That's pretty much all I have to say. 

12 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you very much. 

13 Questions? Follow-up? 

14 [No audible response.] 

15 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Well, thank you, 

16 Mr. Paterson. We appreciate it. 

17 MR. PATERSON: Thank you all for taking 

18 the time. 

19 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, and we do have 

20 two more speakers, if they will come up. We have 

21 Jessica Wang and Gary Harris. Is Garry Harris 

22 here? Oh, I'm sorry. There you are. Are you 
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1 ready? 

2 Well, we'll let Jessica start, Ms. Wang 

3 start. Would you please start by saying your 

4 name and spelling your name for the court 

5 reporter, and if you have any hard copy materials 

6 you would like for us to take today, you can 

7 leave a copy of it with the court reporter. You 

8 can also submit comments by the 21st of January 

9 to our docket. 

10 MS. WANG: Okay. 

11 MR. MITCHELL: Okay? So go ahead. 

12 MS. WANG: I'm Jessica Wang. 

13 J-e-s-s-i-c-a W-a-n-g. I just wrote this now so 

14 it's a little bit rough. The EPA action on 

15 climate change through the Clean Power Plan is an 

16 important first step, but it must be further 

17 strengthened to meet the scale of the challenge, 

18 and it must be designed and implemented in a way 

19 that is both science-based and just. 

20 First, EPA and states must comply with 

21 Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which 

22 prohibits racial discrimination by those that 
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1 receive federal funds. As such, EPA must develop 

2 a process that ensures that there will be no 

3 discriminatory effects when the plan is 

4 implemented. To do this, they must regulate 

5 power plants and not the states. 

6 The responsibility for meeting 

7 performance standards must be placed on each 

8 individual power plant. If EPA does not put the 

9 responsibility where it belongs by regulating the 

10 plants, it leaves open the opportunity for unjust 

11 pollution trading schemes to arise. These 

12 essentially allow emission reduction in one 

13 community to justify continued pollution in 

14 another, and these other communities are often 

15 where low-income and people of color live. No 

16 climate plan should cause the most vulnerable to 

17 suffer the greatest from pollution. 

18 Second, waste-based biomass and other 

19 forms of biomass incineration, as evidenced by 

20 EPA's eGRID database, release significant amounts 

21 of CO2 and should not be considered a low-carbon 

22 alternative. Only truly clean and just forms of 
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1 energy like solar and wind, along with energy 

2 efficiency programs, should be considered. We 

3 cannot seriously address climate change if we are 

4 switching from one form of dirty energy to 

5 another. 

6 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you. Do you have 

7 any questions for Ms. Wang? 

8 [No audible response.] 

9 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Thank you. All 

10 right. Go ahead, please. 

11 MR. HARRIS: Good afternoon. My name is 

12 Garry Harris. I'm Managing Director for the 

13 Center for Sustainable Communities. That's 

14 Garry, G-a-r-r-y, last name is Harris, 

15 H-a-r-r-i-s. And I come to this forum this 

16 afternoon with more than three decades experience 

17 in energy and environmental matters, having 

18 worked at nearly 100 power stations around the 

19 world, in terms of instruction, engineering 

20 procurement, and operations, assessment. So I 

21 keenly understand how power plants operate and 

22 how they can perhaps provide emissions to the 
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1 environment which are harmful and may have 

2 harmful impact, both in the short term and the 

3 long term. I did that from a regulatory 

4 perspective for a number of years. 

5 I come to the hearing this afternoon both 

6 learned and experienced in terms of power plant 

7 operations, and have also been engaged in nearly 

8 60 different events and activities around the 

9 Clean Power Plan since its inception nearly 2 

10 years ago. So I thoroughly understand that the 

11 problem is that climate disproportionately 

12 impacts low-income communities, and particularly 

13 communities of color. Here in Atlanta we've 

14 helped to start organizations called the Just 

15 Energy Circle of the Georgia Alliance for 

16 Environmental Justice and several others which 

17 focus on this particular problem of power plant 

18 emissions and their impacts on communities of 

19 color. 

20 Climate change threatens the health and 

21 wealth of communities throughout the United 

22 States -- floodings, severe heat waves, exposure 
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1 to air pollutants, allergens, and extreme weather 

2 events, and food scarcity will increase without 

3 bold interventions. We personally here have 

4 worked with FEMA and NOAA and others in something 

5 called Weather Rating [ph] Nation, which is 

6 trying to prepare vulnerable communities for 

7 these particular impacts as well. 

8 The Clean Power Plan represents an 

9 unprecedented opportunity to address the 

10 environmental inequities in most impacted 

11 communities. The plan can also provide multiple 

12 benefits and help alleviate long-standing 

13 economic social problems, including unemployment, 

14 dis-investment, balance, and blight. 

15 The federal implementation plan should 

16 take full advantage of this opportunity by 

17 adopting policies that make long-term investments 

18 into communities disproportionately impacted by 

19 pollution and economic stress. The federal plan 

20 should act not only as a backstop for 

21 noncompliant states but should provide a model 

22 for all states on how the plan can minimize the 
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1 pain and maximize the gain for impacted 

2 communities. 

3 Equity -- equity -- must be at the center 

4 of policies addressing climate change. The 

5 federal plan should include policy choices and 

6 implementation approaches that specifically take 

7 equity into account. Again, we formed the Just 

8 Energy Circle here which focuses on energy 

9 equity. Also, we head up the ecodistricts here 

10 in Atlanta which, again, has equity as its core 

11 and also climate and resilience as well. So 

12 we're well leverage and are taking actions in 

13 this space as well, because of climate change. 

14 We applaud the EPA for recognizing that 

15 there are important equity considerations in how 

16 the varying pollution allowances are allocated by 

17 a government agency. The EPA requested comment 

18 on alternatives to giving away virtually all the 

19 valuable pollution allowance to blues [ph] for 

20 free. We look forward to engaging on this topic 

21 to ensure that the Clean Power Plan generates 

22 value and economic opportunity for communities. 
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1 Communities of color and communities of 

2 low incomes must receive net economic 

3 environmental benefits. The allowances created 

4 and any revenues generated by the implementation 

5 of the Clean Power Plan should be used to ensure 

6 disproportionately impacted communities receive 

7 net economic and environmental benefits. 

8 Policies and programs within the federal 

9 implementation plan, in addition to any revenues 

10 committed or generated by such programs should 

11 maximize environmental, social, economic benefits 

12 in impacted communities. 

13 So, again, I'm here in support of the 

14 Clean Power Plan, having experience in power 

15 plant operations, having organized nearly eight 

16 environmental entities here in Atlanta area 

17 around those issues, having attended and 

18 participated in nearly 60 activities and events 

19 around the Clean Power Plan with passion and 

20 earnest, but would plead to you to hear these 

21 comments today and act accordingly. 

22 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you for your 
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1 comments. I don't have any follow-up? Do you? 

2 [No audible response.] 

3 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Well, thank you, 

4 and let me remind you that the comment period is 

5 open until January 21st, and if you would like to 

6 submit written comments today you can give them 

7 to the court reporter or provide them to the 

8 docket by the 21st of January. 

9 Thank you very much. Do we have any 

10 other speakers at the moment? 

11 [No audible response.] 

12 It is 4:29 and we will stay in session. 

13 Well, I'll tell you what. Let's take a 10-minute 

14 break and we'll come back at 4:40. 

15 [Break taken from 4:30 to 5:02.] 

16 MR. MITCHELL: You are Mr. Holloway? 

17 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes. 

18 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. And who is this 

19 with you? 

20 MR. HOLLOWAY: Dylan. 

21 MR. MITCHELL: Dylan. Hey, Dylan. How 

22 are you? Can you say hello? 
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1 MR. HOLLOWAY: He's scared. 

2 MR. MITCHELL: Oh, okay. Don't be 

3 scared, Dylan. 

4 Mr. Holloway, thank you for joining us. You are 

5 our last speaker today. You will have 5 minutes 

6 to talk, and if you would kindly begin by stating 

7 your name and if you would spell your name, first 

8 and last, for our court reporter, and then we 

9 have a light here that's green, yellow means you 

10 have 1 minute left, and red, of course, means 

11 stop. And you are welcome to submit in writing 

12 anything you have today, if you want, and you can 

13 always submit comments to the record by January 

14 21st, and we have instructions outside for doing 

15 that. 

16 So you can go ahead and start when you're 

17 ready, please. 

18 MR. HOLLOWAY: My name is Chris Holloway. 

19 That's C-h-r-i-s H-o-l-l-o-w-a-y. 

20 So what I would like to talk about is 

21 sort of a left-field issue in a way, and to me 

22 it's sort of the elephant in the room, in that 
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1 the truly cleanest energy possible is the energy 

2 not used, and I believe that the only real 

3 solution, especially with continued population 

4 growth, is simply to reduce energy consumption 

5 and not to look for technological fixes. 

6 Ted Trainer, the co-founder of the 

7 Simplicity Institute, has a book called 

8 "Renewable Energy Cannot Sustain a Consumer 

9 Society," and I don't even have to explain what 

10 the book -- to go into any detail about it. I 

11 think the title says it all, especially with 

12 combining -- in terms of cleanliness and to help 

13 the environment to help the climate. Considering 

14 Obama's approach of all of the above, in terms of 

15 energy sources, I just don't see how it can 

16 really work, and that there is what I think is a 

17 more sensible solution and it's to basically curb 

18 demand and not to work from a position, and 

19 assumption that demand is only going to increase. 

20 There are low-tech solutions and it is a 

21 product, I believe, of culture in general, to 

22 seek high-tech, but I think there is more of a 
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1 short-cut to it that can be curbed. Samuel 

2 Alexander, who is the other co-founder of the 

3 Simplicity Institute, says, "Even ethical 

4 problems are assumed to have high-tech rather 

5 than behavioral solutions." 

6 So I believe it is a false hope to look 

7 for techno-fixes and to address supply side 

8 responses versus demand side responses, because I 

9 believe in both. And I believe that government 

10 agencies have the ability to simply make 

11 suggestions and already do, such as the kind of 

12 age-old and somewhat cliché idea of taking 

13 shorter showers or turning the lights off when 

14 you leave the room. 

15 I believe more impactful suggestions 

16 could be made, such as local systems like the 

17 spreading, wildly popular transition movement in 

18 the UK, also some sites in the U.S. as well, that 

19 make energy moot, and simply reducing and just by 

20 redesigning systems for food and low-scale, 

21 small-scale private of community-based energy 

22 generation, and even using simply technology, 
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1 some of which we've had for hundreds or even 

2 thousands of years, but is simply not in vogue 

3 currently. 

4 I believe that's what we can really hope for, 

5 again, in terms of growth in every single 

6 department of human life, culture, society. I 

7 think that's the solution. 

8 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Is that it? Thank 

9 you. 

10 So let me just ask you. You mentioned a 

11 couple of references, which you don't have today 

12 with you, I would assume. So if you would kindly 

13 take the opportunity to write into our docket and 

14 give us the references, or copies if you have 

15 them, of your comments and the citations that you 

16 have, so that we can take that into 

17 consideration. 

18 MR. HOLLOWAY: I'd like to. I just found 

19 out about this last night. 

20 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Great. Thank you. 

21 So we'll give you a fact sheet when you go out, 

22 and back, on the back it says how to comment, and 
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1 it tells you where to send your materials. And 

2 if you want to leave any of what you already have 

3 today you can leave it with the court reporter. 

4 MR. HOLLOWAY: Okay. 

5 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. All right. Thank 

6 you. 

7 MR. HOLLOWAY: Thank you. 

8 MR. MITCHELL: You're our last and best 

9 witness. Do you want to say anything? 

10 MR. HOLLOWAY: He doesn't talk much 

11 anyway. 

12 [Laughter.] 

13 MR. MITCHELL: All right. Well, thank 

14 you. And so today's hearing is officially 

15 closed. Thanks to everyone who was here and 

16 helped. 

17 [Whereupon, at 5:08 p.m., the Public 

18 Hearing concluded.] 

19 

20 

21 

22